God Damned Fundies!

---

11 Years of HolySmoke


|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   All
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:26:58
EID:d64e 2190735d
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8e6f7a
PID: FM 2.02
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The HolySmoke Central Committee is calling for the formation of a
HolySmoke Convention subcommittee which will coordinate all activities
and research needed to launch the first ever world-wide HolySmoke
Convention!  If you would like to volunteer to help plan, please let
me know (Fredric Rice) either through Echo area HolySmoke, NetMail at
1:218/890.0 (818) 335-9601, or through e-mail (frice@stbbs.com or
frice@linkline.com.)

Additionally I would like to ask for someone to head-up the committee;
someone who plans to attend.  The Chairman would be responsible for
filling-in gaps in the planning and pick up anything which might have
been forgotten as well as maintaining and distributing the plan
materials.

Immediate tasks:

1) Las Vegas appears to have the lowest round-trip air fares.
Additionally it looks like a great many HolySmokers could
easilly make the drive from many States (California, Arizona,
Texas, Colorado, and Utah are all within a day's safe driving
distance.)

The committee would need to see if Las Vegas would be
acceptable and the committee would also be responsible for
collecting names and locations for people who wish to attend
so that others could car pool for the trip.  (For instance, I
would be willing to pick people up along the way even if it
is several hundred miles out of the way.)

2) Poll for a month within which the most number of people who
would wish to attend could attend then determine how many people
are likely to attend.

3) Collect hotel information from the area, offering a spectrum of
accomidations from the extremely cheap (such as perhaps the
nightly cost of a stay at a Campground of America) to the
moderately-priced.  This information should be included in a
HS-CONV.ZIP information package.

Getting three or six of us into a single largish hotel room would
also help decrease the cost of staying.  Getting into a hotel
which has a cheap all-you-can-eat buffet would also be a good
idea.  People used to sleeping on the floor should indicate that
sleeping on the floor is acceptable -- provided anyone sleeps
at all.

In fact, the hotel management need not ever learn who's sleeping
in what rooms.  They need not even be told we're attending a
convention -- as was mentioned, that could drive up the price
of everything.

4) After determining how many people are likely to attend, find out
where we can have a week-end meeting with enough space for
everyone.  If there are only a dozen HolySmokers who will attend,
this could even be a pizza shop though I would perfer to rent a
cheap meeting room in a cheap hotel.  The cost for such a room
would need to be factored into whether anyone's willing to pay for
it which is itself determined by the number of people likely to
attend.  If there's a fee for the convention then we need to get
firm committments and the committee would need to collect checks
from everyone who will be attending.

5) Find out who is willing to shuttle people from McCarren
International Airport to and from their hotels and wherever
we're having the meeting, then make that list available to
whoever wants it.  There would probably be many arival times
from individuals trickleing in yet probably only a couple
of departure times when everyone leaves at around the same
time.  (The Airport is on the way out of the city if you're
driving toward California.)

6) For the convention itself, the committee would need to do the
following:

a) Consider a theme for this year's convention.  The theme
could be used to tailor the discussions somewhat though
there probably shouldn't be any strict rules.  Some ideas
could be:

"For the most part, atheists do no good things"

"We've made a pact with demons"

"Ciya in Hell!"

Be creative; pick a common HolySmoke theme.

b) Solicit individuals willing to give a speech or presentation.
This can be any number of people depending upon the schedule
and length of time granted the individual.  It could include
rabid atheists who have something to say or rabid fundies who
have nothing to say but want time to say it anyway.  A
spectrum of individuals could be solicited to offer a wide
difference in opinions...  a militant homosexual and a woman-
hating Promise Keeper would be welcome.  (We'll want to be
sure to exclude any "pro-lifers" and, in fact, the committee
might want to consider whether metal detectors and security
would be needed.  There are a lot of nuts out there.)  We
could get a metafundy as well to throw random physics terms
at us.  He could bring his concrete pillow.

Booking individuals and publishing what they intend to
speak on might be a good idea as more people might be willing
to come if they get to hear something they're interested in.
More so:  a half-hour of rebuttle/argument/grilling could be
scheduled after each speech or presentation and a fund time
could be had by all.

c) Consider holding an awards presentation for various
categories.  The awards themselves can be pictures printed on
a Laser Printer which is symbolic of the attributes which
comprise the reasons for the award.  If an awards presentation
is agreed upon, such categories could include:

1) The award for the most rabid fundy

2) The award for the most rational fundy

3) The award for the most rabid atheist

4) The award for the most rational atheist

5) The award for the fundy which has done
the most damage to his or her religion
by talking

6) The ever popular Wind-Up Robot Award

Use your imagination.  Winners of the awards should not need
to be present yet the award winners should be notified before
the convention.  Award winners who have indicated that they
wish to attend should be notified in advance so that they can
ready a short acceptance speech OR ready a speech declining
the award.    Award winners who can't make it could
have someone who is attending read their acceptance or
declining speech from a prepaired write-up.

If a picture award isn't enough, the committee should think
about something more substancial -- like maybe a god or a
concrete pillow.

d) Think about what we should do for lunch on Saturday and
Sunday and maybe think about whether we should all try to
get together for dinner on Saturday or whether we should all
just be left on our own, forming small groups as needed
depending upon what everyone's interested in for dinner.
Some people might wish to bring camping equipment and an
ice chest with food and drinks, cooking lunch on the
tailgate of their pick-up or the hood of their car.  If
any of this goes on, they could do it in the parking lot
together!

e) Think about coordinating some activities for the Monday
following the convention in the event a group of people
want to hang around in the city kicking around for a day.
The committee could check into times and prices for
shows and what not (only if people are interested that
is.)  Maybe Elvis will be in town.

f) Can we get convention T-Shirts made up?  The committee
might consider that question and look for someone who is
willing to do a lay-out and a shop willing to print them.
The committee would need to collect T-shit fees before
having anything ordered from a shop.

g) Can we get coffee and Diet Coke during the meetings?  Or
should we maybe bring a bunch of coffee pots and make
our own coffee?  Coffee might be part of the price for a
convention room.

h) Do we want to allow people to sell things?  Maybe just
allow people to post a message on a white board offering
a note about what they're selling, where their hotel room
is and stuff like that?  I'm thinking of FidoNet software
message editors, PC cards, floppies, or perhaps anything
someone might want to have made-up for the occasion... like
Star Goat idols, perhaps, or Ciya Pepper Shakers.

i) Do we audio tape the speeches?  If so, would we make them
available to anyone HolySmoker who wants a copy?  Does
anyone want to video tape the thing?  If people write-up
their speeches, should we collect them and put them into a
file for download after the convention?  Should we provide
them before the convention so that people can form rebuttles
and arguments before the event?

j) Do we have a door prize?

k) Do we provide a computer and modem in a hotel room running
IRC so that people who can't come can type at people who
did come?

l) Do we schedule a couple of free-form argument periods?  We
could pass around a sea shell and whoever holds it has the
floor.  }:-}

m) The Chairman of the committee would need to check every
message in the HolySmoke echo and keep copies of every
message which discusses the convention.  The subject line
of the messages is often not enough to determine whether
the message is discussing the convention though HolySmokers
could make a habit of offering a descriptive subject when
they discuss it.

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)
SEEN-BY: 124/9005 218/890
PATH: 218/890


|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Robert Burke
|Sub:  Our Daily Ignorant rant
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:10:34
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36e
PID: FM 2.02
RB> always been there. Science to me is just our slow unlocking of
RB> creation. The Supreme scientist.

DC> Where did he get his degree from?  Best guess is from an unacredited
DC> 2 year school with a BS in Bullshit.

rb> You are brilliant! Your insults evidence your vast knowledge.

Why didn't you answer his question, Robert?  Could it be because you lied?
And could it be that you lied because your death cult TEACHES you to lie?

Well?

~*~  Ok, name on person that has witnessed a Monkey turn into a man.
- Chris Vetter

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Ray Talley
|Sub:  "Flat Earth" Town
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:40:59
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8e9695
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 32b569bf
PID: FM 2.02
AM> Imagine a world where all voluntarily lived by the golden rule,
AM> treat others as they would be treated. No wars, no armies to
AM> support.

rt> How many wars were started (and continue
rt> to be started) by relgious zealots?

All of them.  Or, to be fair, all wars are justified by gods.  Even when
the United States was bombing Iraq, there were comments by people interviewed
by the media to the effect that the non-existant Muslim gods weren't going
to save them.  It was true but the opinion was expressed to convey the belief
that the Christanic gods would win.

AM> No need for police or courts.

rt> Your priest will decide your guilt or innocence.

Based upon how much money the priest can get out of it.

AM> No rape,

rt> Since according to fundy rules, all women
rt> must submit to thier husband on command.

Christians rape children in far greater numbers than non-Christians -- in
Christianic societies.  Being a Christanic death cultist doesn't detract
from being a rapist one iota.  It only grants them an excuse.

~*~  What are the dictates of my god ? - Paul Churchill
What ever your masters say they are. - Fredric L. Rice

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)

|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Amazing Randi Goodie #1
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:49:07
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8e9696
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d90
PID: FM 2.02
FR> fucks take a picture of something, install it in an empty
FR> box with an antenna on it, and pretend that it'l find
FR> whatever's on the picture.  They started using black apoxy
FR> on the picture to keep from anyone finding out the "secret"
FR> to the device.

rs>  LOL . . . Now we know . . . kind of a
rs> space-aged dowsing of some sort, eh?

Space Age prices, any way.  The Quatro frauds used to "explain" how the
device worked without describing what went into it.  When it was discovered
that it was an empty box with a picture inside and an antenna outside, the
frauds started to use epoxy to cover the picture.  Eventually they started
to "photograph" what the box was "designed" to find with photocopiers which
had the lamps disconnected -- yeah, that results in no reproduction on the
blank piece of paper but they didn't want (so they claimed) other companies
to steal the "science."

Also the fucks wrote down words on a piece of paper or cardboard, epoxied
it over so that it couldn't be seen, then stuck it inside the empty box.
The claims were just like Lee and Brawley's claims -- random physics terms
slopped out in no particular order specifically designed to sucker the ignorant
and the gullible.

That teachers and school supervisors bought several is disappointing to
say the least.  That various government agencies (like the DEA) bought dozens
is even worse.

FR> They sold dozens of them to people who should know better --
FR> DEA people who thought it could detect illegal drugs and
FR> other government officials.

rs> Well, stupidity knows no bounds, apparently . . .

Yep.  And Quatro also sold a magnet package that "halfed fuel consumption."
Many agencies tried it -- State construction crews and such on their tractors
and such -- and reported that it worked.

When all the claims were put to scientific tests, the charges of fraud started
to get written up.

ar>  Some months back, I discussed the silly device known as the
ar>  "Quadro" rod, a stick that claimed to be means of detecting
ar>  golf balls, guns, and drugs at a distance by super-technology
ar>  invented and offered for sale by the Quadro Corporation of
ar>  Harleyville, S.C.

FR> That's the one!    What kind of an idiot would buy
FR> this fraud?

rs>  The average kind of idiot?

We seem to have a bumper crop every year.

~*~  I figure if they wanted to keep the bridge, they
wouldn't have left it out in the forest all night. - Unknown

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  fundy clown
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:58:20
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36a
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d91
PID: FM 2.02
js> Ha! I laugh you to scorn!
ML> Ha! We laugh at your idiocy.
js> A bit of an MPD problem, Herr Doktor?
dc> Wrong, Jimbo.  I join Marty in his laughter at your idiocy.
FR> Me too.  I'm laughing at you too, Jim.

rs> Me three.  Jimson is always good for a decent
rs> laugh or two, and this case is no exception . . .

What's a real horror is that some people like Staal actually vote.

~*~  Sorry but your arguement that lightbulbs disprove
Christianity does not quite convince me.  - Steve Bedard

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:01:37
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36b
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d92
PID: FM 2.02
MG> Do I hear Las Vegas Gideon Bibles burning?

What a wonderful idea!  A contest to see who can get the most copies!

SQ> If we're lucky, we'll each find
sq> copies of the Book of Mormon in our rooms.

rs> If not, I bet we can order down for them . . .

We could all ask for copies of a whole bunch of cult mythologies, from the
Koran to the sayings of the Buddah to the Urantia.  When the hotel clerk
says he hasn't got any of them, toss a fit about how the hotel's management
is anti-American and engageing in religious persecution.

Liking it more every minute.

~*~  God doesn't care what you think. -- James Davis

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:04:31
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36c
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d95
PID: FM 2.02
sh> I'm saying that asking about "needing" to be saved is a
sh> meaningless question.
RS> Why?
FR> Because being "saved" from a logical absurdity is
FR> meaningless, I suppose.  It may be an admission from him or
FR> sorts.

rs> I can accept that.

Except that now he's claiming he said no such thing.    It didn't
take long for him to fall into lock-step with all the rest.

rs> Since he doesn't want to actually engage in conversation,
rs> but would rather have a metaphysical circle jerk, I don't
rs> need to pay any more attention to him, and have told him
rs> so.  I can live with one less inane person.  

That does seem to be the traditional "Onward Christian Soldier," huh?  They
want their intellectual betters to stand quietly and listen to their rants
yet when pressed for evidence or when asked even the simplest of questions,
they're just not interested.

It's true of the fundies that come to the door as well as the fundies that
make the mistake of coming through here.

~*~  ... Rush Limbaugh gay? That's enough to make homosexuals homophobic.
- David Rice

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Jesse does no good thinking
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:08:45
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36d
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d96
PID: FM 2.02
FR> money, jump-start people's cars for them, even fix women's
FR> cars if they won't start in the parking lot...  And when my
FR> CPR certificate was good and I carried my radios in my car,
FR> I used to help out at accidents.

rs> How dare you!  You drive Jesse's theory right up
rs> on the rocks of oblivion by such behavior!  

Jesse got the truth shoved up his ass the same day he posted his blathering
lunatic insanity.  Man, Richard, there was no shortage of atheists shoving
it up his ass -- and yet even now, after so many people enumerated the good
things they routinely do -- he still wants to play pretend.

He was taught such nonsense by his masters and he'll be damned if he'll
accept the truth.  Doubtless he just thinks that everyone who rubbed his
nose in it are lying -- I mean, his masters can't be lying so everyone else
must be.

FR> don't see it as an insult.  When I'm told "god bless you," I
FR> _do_ make it a habbit to say, "Who?  I don't believe I
FR> caught the name."

rs> Dependent on how long you can keep that
rs> exchange going, it could be fun . . .

I've only had one fundy sputter and say, "I find that the more I learn the
more I believe in god."  I pointed out that what he experiences is still
the argument from ignorance; the more one learns the more one learns how
much they don't know.  The fucker turned blue and he really wouldn't work
with me after that.

~*~  There are many who are really troubled because low, debasing thoughts
come into the mind, and are not easily banished. - Phil Morrison
They become Christian clergy, in fact. - Fredric Rice

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Robert Burke
|Sub:  Utterly evil death cult
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:11:47
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36f
PID: FM 2.02
RB> I have never seen the 10 commandments plastered anywhere in a p
RB> building and as far as I know seperation of church and state fo
RB> it.

DC> As it should do to all superstitious bullshit.

rb> We should also teach our children
rb> the pain, horror, and pain of atheism.

Children are _born_ atheists, you ignorant, superstitious savage.  It takes
an evil person to destroy a child's mind by making her believe there are
gods and deadly ideologies like "sin."

~*~  This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ.
There are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are
going to be transformed into rabid Christers. - John Prewett

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Jesse Jones
|Sub:  Comrade Fredric
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:13:46
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee370
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 15abdcb6
PID: FM 2.02
JJ>         For the subtlety impaired, my reference to your stay
jJ> in the  former Soviet Union had nothing to do with your
JJ> passport entries, but  instead recalled your vigorous
JJ> defense of the F.S.U. as the moral  equivalent of the U.S.A.

RS> So you lied just for laughs?  Is this typical Xtian behavior?

ijcj> Perhaps for the humor impaired I should also
ijcj> have included an appropriate emoticon.

You only prove yourself even more the Christian by digging your hole deeper,
Jesse.  A ___REAL___ man would have simply admitted he made a mistake. 
But then you're not a real man, are you?

~*~  You do realize that this echo has made me into this twisted, vile
fiend that now stands before you. - Drew Webber (HolySmoke)  }:-}

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Shelby Sherman
|Sub:  Scientific Theories.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:14:42
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee371
REPLY: 1:123/67 32b57c78
PID: FM 2.02
LA>    "Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described,
LA>  one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations.

ss> Idiot.  One human skull found in the same
ss> geological strata would falsify evolution.

The fucker knows it.

ss> I am sick and tired of reading your ignorant ramblings
ss> about a subject that you know nothing about.

Which is why he continues.  Ignore the fucker and he'll go away, I bet.

~*~  Hey, man, that's straight from satan's hell. - Phil Morrison

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)


|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  COINCIDENCE FIVE
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:18:41
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee372
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 b5f31ecc
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Ed!  Man, I thought they gave you ten to fifteen!  What are you doing
FR> out? }:-}   (Sorry;  Duran Duran did it.  Honest.)

em> Actually, they let me have a computer here in the hole. That's
em> not why I was incognito for awhile. Our hub lost major mail
em> feed for nigh onto a week, awhile back. If I didn't have a full
em> batch of pruno already made up, I might have jumped off the top
em> tier.

I don't blame you a bit.  Life without pruno is meaningless.   }:-}

em> Whatever became of this bright fellow? Haven't seen
em> any posts from him in many moons.

FR> I think he finally found some of those "militant homosexuals"
fr> he was constantly all aquiver over and doesn't have any more
fr> time for us guys and gals on HolySmoke.

em> Oh damn. I wanted to show him a new safe-sex trick I learned
em> here in the D-block. All you need is an empty toilet-paper core
em> and some fresh, warm liver.

  Yes, Ed is back.  }:-}

I am reminded of the Christian church bulletin board announcement which
read, "Safe Sex.  All those wishing to attend come in the rear."

~*~  'SIN' is a purely religious concept. To those of us who have no
religion, sin doesn't exist except as an abstract theoretical
concept. - Kelsey Bjarnason

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Catholic schools
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:31:46
EID:5eea 21907be0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d98
REPLY: 1:105/40.667 b9f5d09b
};> Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to Richard Smith <:(

DC> On (14 Dec 96) Richard Smith got back to Don Martin...
EM> For a minute, she almost made me forget about my prepubescent
EM> adoration of Barbara Feldon.
DM>     Me, I was strongly attracted to Imogene Coca.
RS>  I have the perpetual hots for Dianna Rigg, myself . . .
DC> Now your talking!  (Though I wouldn't mind if Barbara Feldon
DC>  ate crackers in my bed, either!)

So your nickname is Crackers? 

Ditto on Agent 99 . . .

Quid, Me Anxius Sum?

Richard
Smith

--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Alignment list
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:39:00
EID:d521 219034e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 67b3f7c7
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5eed206d
On (14 Dec 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to All...

KW> -------------
KW> Name             Location            Alignment             In the
KW> 'Smoke

KW> Lynda Bustilloz  Southern Maryland   chaotic unique        1 1/2 years

Marilyn Burge         Portland, OR        freethinker           4 years
(I guess
12-28-38

KW> Mike Hardy       Mobile, Alabama     former evangelical    2 years
KW>                                      Christian turned
KW>                                      Open-minded agnostic.



KW> Katherine
KW> Wintersnight     El Paso, TX, USA     Wiccan                1 1/2
KW> years




KW> ---
KW>  * OLXWin 1.00a * Chef: (n.) Any cook that swears in French


KW> --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
KW>  * Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes
KW> (1:381/123)



... ...                                  <

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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  Thanksgiving
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:44:16
EID:8cb4 21903580
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 03c2bc67
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b3d4b0
On (15 Dec 96) Steve Quarrella wrote to Martin Goldberg...

SQ> Salue, Martin!

SQ> Mercurii dies December 11 1996, Dixit Martin Goldberg ad Jesse Jones:

SQ>  SQ>>> Just an atheist out here doing good things.
SQ>  JJ>> Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.
MG> Are you still claiming thta atheists do no good acts?

SQ> As if I'm responsible to him for what I do and don't do.  That's a
SQ> large part of his problem:  He, as a Fundamentalist Christian, has a
SQ> "God-given" right to order others around.

What IS IT about Christers that makes them think they have
a franchise on virtue?

I saw a "debate" between William Bennett and Mario Cuomo a
few nights ago, and William Bennett spent nearly his whole
time at the mike telling all of us that society needed gawd
in order to solve all the problems of welfare, teenage pregnancy,
unemployment, crime, and ingrown toenails.  

Come Q&A time, I found a mike and reminded him that we had
been hearing that from the Republicans for years now, and
all they had been able to give us was a man whose SECOND
wife was knocked up when he married her, a presidential
candidate who had dumped his first wife to marry his current
one, and speaker of the house who had gone to his first wife's
hospital bed and dumped her immediately following major
surgery....

It was at that point they turned off my mike.

Hope I made my point.


... A clash between the Yugo of belief and the Kenworth of reality.

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  purpose and ethics
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:50:44
EID:43a5 21903640
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 cc8403e2
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b3da5e
On (15 Dec 96) Steve Quarrella wrote to Jesse Jones...

SQ> You are a sad excuse for a human being, Jesse.  It is my sincere hope
SQ> that some day, you get the reward you deserve:  Hendrix, Moon, Bonham,
SQ> and Morrison, all with rooms on the same floor as you.  You can "party
SQ> with the divine" to your heart's content. :)

You forgot Joplin.  Don't forget to put Joplin on that floor, too.



... 66.59999999999999787:  Beast divided by 10 on a Pentium.

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  GOOD THINGS
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:55:28
EID:9cc7 219036e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 07a5c672
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 7218fba9
On (14 Dec 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Jesse Jones...

JH> On Dec 11 06:10 96, Jesse Jones of 1:135/71 wrote:

JJ> Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.

JH>  How do you determine wether an act is a "GOOD THING" or not?

JH>  Please, do NOT reply with "you know what I mean"; because I don't
JH>  have the foggiest notion as to what it means to you (other than the
JH>  suspicion that it means something radically different from what it
JH>  does to the rest of the world).

JH>  This is not the first time I have asked you this.
JH>  I would like an answer this time.

Beats hell outta me!  My husband is spending 50 hours a week with
my dying sister because she can't be left alone.  He has to do for
her everything that an RN would do, including wipe her ass for her.
The reason he is doing it is because they can't afford to hire
someone to come in while Chris works, and Chris can't possibly
quit working or they lose everything.  He is nearly 76 years old,
and his back has deteriorated to the point where he is in constant
pain (so, it's obvious he shouldn't be lifting her again and again
all day, but he does it anway, without complaint).

But, he's not doing a "good thing," either.  We KNOW that, because
he's a "heathen."

So, what IS a "good thing?"  Beats the hell outta me!




... ... 6.66 x 10^2   Scientific notation of The Beast.

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  "flat earth" town
|Date: 16 Dec 96  07:07:02
EID:86da 219038e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 9dd4c01b
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b4bda97
On (15 Dec 96) Richard Smith wrote to Don Martin...

RS>  

Probably.  When I was 5-6, I had my lanced at least
twice (that many times I remember, what with no
anaesthetic and all), and though somewhat hearing
impaired, I've always been able to function quite
well without mechanical aid.



... A journey of a thousand miles begins with a cash advance.

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Robert Burke
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Re: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:37:00
EID:c744 21900ca0
DC>  RB> always been there. Science to me is just our slow unlocking of

DC>  RB> creation. The Supreme scientist.
DC>  
DC> Where did he get his degree from?  Best guess is from an unacredited
DC> 2 year school with a BS in Bullshit.  

You are brilliant! Your insults evidence your vast knowledge.

--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Robert Burke
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Sola Scriptura
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:40:00
EID:01b7 21900d00
DC>  RB> I have never seen the 10 commandments plastered anywhere in a p
DC>  RB> building and as far as I know seperation of church and state fo
DC>  RB> it.
DC>  
DC> As it should do to all superstitious bullshit.  

We should also teach our children the pain, horror, and pain of 
atheism.

--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Legislating Morality
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:05:34
EID:d8ed 219090a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 ffebff19
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 7216cdd2
On (14 Dec 96) Martin Goldberg wrote to Marilyn Burge...

MB> Not so. Three gay couples are marrying in Hawaii any day now,
MB> thanks to the Hawaiian Supreme Court decision that stated it was
MB> unconstitutional for the State to forbid the marriages.

MG> The last that I had heard was that it was still up in the air.  When
I
MG> saw this, I looked for news reports.  I think that there are some guys
MG> int he US senate that are going to try and do something about it. 
MG> After reading the amendment in question, it seems fairly
MG> straightforward, but in the hands of lawyers and politicians, nothing
MG> is black and white.

MG> Nor should it be.

No, you've got it all bollixed.  Here's the scoop.  The Hawaiian Supreme
Court said that under THEIR constitution, the State had no interest in
who married whom.  At that point, three couples said they would marry
right away.  At least two of them have gotten a license, last I heard.

The U.S. Senate, outraged at the thought that two people who love each
other might actually marry, passed a law that says that OTHER STATES
do not have to recognize gay marriages that take place in states that
do allow them.  

The problem is, the law they passed in unconstitutional, for the reasons
already cited here.



... Fundamentalism is merely stupidity raised to a higher power.

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Comrade Fredric
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:38
EID:3dc7 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcb6
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting RICHARD SMITH to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

RS>  };> Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Fredric Rice <:(

RS> JJ> Did you learn this trick of accusing those who disagree with
RS> JJ> you of mental illness during your stay in the former Soviet
RS> JJ> Union?

RS> . . . snippies . . .

RS>  JJ>         For the subtlety impaired, my reference to your stay
RS>  JJ> in the  former Soviet Union had nothing to do with your
RS>  JJ> passport entries, but  instead recalled your vigorous
RS>  JJ> defense of the F.S.U. as the moral  equivalent of the U.S.A.

RS> So you lied just for laughs?  Is this typical Xtian behavior?

Perhaps for the humor impaired I should also have included an 
appropriate emoticon.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Heathens
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:39
EID:485c 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcb8
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAN CEPPA to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

DC>-> On 12-11-96  06:10, Jesse Jones got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> DC> SS>Are you claiming that you don't have that right? 
DC> DC> JJ> Yes.
DC> DC>How's it feel to be a slave?  
DC> 
DC> DC> SS>Who defines you if not yourself?

DC>Your answer to that question follows  --->  

DC> DC> JJ> God.

DC> 
DC> DC>Outside of your imagination, you got evidence that any god 
DC> DC>exists, let alone the one that you think enslaves you?  

DC>Your rather inept retort is next --->

DC> JJ> Outside of your robotic "show me" mantra, do you have anything
DC> JJ> to contribute to this conversation?

DC>You surely don't.  You claim that you are defined by God[sic].  
DC>IOW, without evidence that claimed god exists, you are an 
DC>undefined entity.  

DC>Now, show evidence that your god exists, Jesse.  

Dan, as you should know well by now, I reject the notion that 
evidence is required for God to exist.  Can you prove to me that 
evidence is required for God to exist?  For anyone or anything else to 
exist?

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Stupid is as stupid does -- Forrest Gump

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Sally Springett
|Sub:  Lying Curry Scum
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:39
EID:895d 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcb9
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting SALLY SPRINGETT to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

SS> JJ> Anyway, I hope you will do something more than sputter about
SS> JJ> this, and show in what specifics the article I cited is
SS> JJ> inconsistent with my position that atheists, for the most
SS> JJ> part, do not do good things  (although, to be fair [not that
SS> JJ> anyone here is concerned to be fair],  this citation first
SS> JJ> came up to support the related position that people  of faith
SS> JJ> do more good works than do secular folk).

SS>To be perfectly fair one would have to come to agreement on what
SS>actually constitutes "good works." I do not consider missionary
SS>activity, for instance, to be a "good work." 

I understand that.   The report I cited excluded "missionary 
work" as you define it.

FWIW, the mainline churches have for many decades now restricted 
their overseas activities to meeting human needs, and not to 
recruitment.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Scortched scotch.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:40
EID:b05d 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbb
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

KW>JJ>RV>> RC> I grieve for you. What next? PEPPER?

KW>JJ>RV>> RV> Lay it on with a knife. 

KW>JJ>RV>RC>I never thought I'd say this, but Brother Jesse was right:
KW>JJ>RV>RC>This truly is an evil place.

KW>JJ>RV>Better then a women to spice up your life. Cheaper too.

KW>JJ>        I've often speculated that the denizens of this hellhole
KW>JJ>get  sexually aroused with their rituals of abuse here.  Thanks
KW>JJ>for  confirming it.

KW>  You think that sex must be abusive?  Or that sex is the only
KW>spice that life holds?

KW>You poor thing.

Could you please explain how you get those conclusions from my 
post?

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
I don't know what I like, but I know what art is.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  Scortched scotch.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:40
EID:e595 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbc
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting MARILYN BURGE to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

MB>I've seen you call this a "Hellhole" for several years now.  Yet,
MB>just exactly what are you doing to elevate the atmosphere, save
MB>preach a little sermonette on holidays that you deem to be the
MB>sole possession of believers, and post little one-line zingers
MB>such as the above from time to time?

MB>When was the last time you seriously engaged anybody in a debate
MB>that centered on personal values, principles, or societal good?

I do often in other forums.

MB>All I've seen in far too long from you is criticism with no attempt
MB>being made to make things better.

MB>Why don't you spend less time on criticism, and more time on
MB>simply airing your POSITIVE values and seeking out those of others?

Thanks for the lecture, Marilyn.  Unfortunately, the last time I 
attempted a dialogue with you, on your posting of a humanist statement 
of principles you had copied from somewhere, your response was, in 
effect, yeah, who asked you.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Age is a high price to pay for maturity.

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|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Thanksgiving
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:40
EID:ec22 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbd
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting MARTIN GOLDBERG to JESSE JONES on 12-11-96

MG>SQ>>Just an atheist out here doing good things.
MG> JJ>         Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.

MG>Are you still claiming thta atheists do no good acts?

Never said that Marty.  I have said consistently that for the 
most part, atheists do not do good things.  Do you understand the 
difference?

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
He who cannot harmonize, sings alone.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Sally Springett
|Sub:  Lincoln
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:40
EID:115b 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbe
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting SALLY SPRINGETT to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

SS> JJ> Okay, Glen, but realize too you will be showing the schools
SS> JJ> that  religious expression in fact has a firm root in this
SS> JJ> nation's traditions.  President Lincoln obviously did not
SS> JJ> think the First Amendment banned God from the marketplace of
SS> JJ> public discourse.

SS>Let us not forget that Mr. Lincoln was seeking election in the
SS>aftermath of the first great American fundamentalist revival period
SS>(the 1840s). One does not go out of one's way to offend people's
SS>beliefs when one is seeking election to public office. Do we know
SS>anything about Lincoln's _private_ beliefs? 

SS>I have somewhere acquired the notion that he was a private agnostic.
SS>I do not state it firmly because I am too lazy to go to the library
SS>to look for evidence. It was from remarks made in a journal or
SS>letter. My memory, never my strong suit, is getting worse.

Lincoln, in my opinion, was a man of astounding insight.  I know 
that he was unchurched and often profoundly critical of organized 
Christianity.  The notion of "private beliefs" is itself amusing.  
"Belief" and "doubt" are not always opposites.

Lincoln has been referred to as the quintessential "American" 
theologian.  He had great insight into the prophetic traditions of the 
Bible, its calls for righteousness among the nations, and the innate 
belief in divine providence that has come to shape the American 
experience.  With these tools he led our nation through its darkest hour

and into its most profound definition of who we are as a people.

Like all humans, he was flawed, and like all great people, he 
struggled with the burdens given to him.  He suffered from depression 
and loneliness.  If he defined himself at some point as an agnostic, 
that would contribute to his sadness.  But I thank God for what he did.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
"Happiness is a mystery, and should never be rationalized." Chesterson

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|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  Thanksgiving
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:41
EID:d53a 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbf
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting KAREN DAVIS to JESSE JONES on 12-13-96

KD>On (11 Dec 96) Jesse Jones wrote to Steve Quarrella...

KD> JJ>         Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.

KD>I'll give you a long list if you want it.

I do not know you.  If we have engaged in any discussions here I 
do not recall them.  I know that Steve has challenged my statement that

atheists for the most part do not do good works.  Some of the heathens 
here are too slow mentally to understand that is *not* in any way 
inconsistent with the equally true statement, *some* atheists do good 
works.  If you are among those, good for you!  I am reasonably confident

that Stevie Q. is not among those.  If you would like to share the good

works you do, I am happy to hear of them.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid doing entirely.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Scientific Theories.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  16:41:12
EID:518e 21908520
MSGID: 1:123/67 32b57c78
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 863e49a4
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
15 Dec 96 18:19, quoting Laurie Appleton to Shelby Sherman:


SS>> "In order to talk about the nature of the universe and
SS>> to discuss questions such as whether it has a beginning or
SS>> an end, you have to be clear about what a scientific theory
SS>> is.  I shall take the simple-minded view that a theory is
SS>> just a model of the universe, or a set of rules that relate
SS>> quantities in the model to observations that we make."

SS>> "It exists only in our minds and does not have any
SS>> other reality (whatever that might mean). A theory is a good
SS>> theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately
SS>> describe a large class of observations on the basis of a
SS>> model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it
SS>> must make definite predictions about the results of future
SS>> observations."

SS>> "Any physical theory is always provisional, in the
SS>> sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it.
SS>> No matter how many times the result of experiments agree
SS>> with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time
SS>> the result will not contradict the theory.  On the other
SS>> hand, you can disprove a theory by finding a single
SS>> observation that disagrees with the predictions of the
SS>> theory."

SS>> --from _A Brief History of Time_, Stephen W. Hawking, Bantam,
SS>> 1988

SS>> Now, why is evolution NOT a valid scientific theory?

LA>    Simple, it FAILS all of the above criteria, of course!
LA> Even evolutionists themselves sometimes admit this. One
LA> example is;

LA>    "Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described,
LA>  one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations.

Idiot.  One human skull found in the same geological strata would
falsify evolution.

I am sick and tired of reading your ignorant ramblings about a subject
that you know nothing about.


--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:14:00
EID:7895 218f89c0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-

RH> While I give it no credence, it's portrayal of God is of a
RH> being who is not judgmental at all; Hitler went to heaven.

AS> (Open mouth, close mouth, open mouth)

I thought that would get your attention. 

AS> Now I'm going to ask an honest question of all the nonbelievers in
AS> the echo; what would your opinion be of a hypothetical being who gave
AS> Adolf Hitler an eternity of bliss without making any indication that
AS> he realized the enormity of what he had done? (I.E., ask forgiveness.)

About the same as one who would let him off scott free just for saying
"I'm sorry" ....

AS> I know I'm not supposed to judge and all that, but I must admit
AS> there I have trouble following my own religion, at least when it comes
AS> to Hitler. 

Most of us do too, Al.

AS> Because He's such a "nice guy", He'll let ANYONE...no
AS> matter how henious
AS> their crime...live forever in bliss? Perpetuate an existence forever
AS> to a being that slaughtered six million other people, and caused the
AS> death through war of many more? In ecstacy.

According to the book, god made us so we can experience reality for
him. He can only understand it theoretically, since he's not IN it.
So he doesn't really care what we do, in one sense, but in another,
he wants us to do our best. Many lifetimes are required, but eventually
everyone does get there. So, yes, Hitler goes to heaven.

AS> In my beliefs, anyone can earn Heaven, no matter how depraved or

No one can earn (merit) Heaven. It's in the book!


... "Milhouse, we live in the age of cooties!"  - Bart Simpson
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

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|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  AND MORE LIFE.
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:17:00
EID:2f3f 218f8a20
-=> Quoting Ronald Vass to Dave Hamilton <=-

RV> I've mention to others before, it's a dark scarry world out there
RV> when you feel your the only one.

But Ron, you ARE the only one. Not only that, you're going to DIE!

Live with it.


... Psycho-ceramics:  The study of crackpots
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  CONSTANTS
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:31:00
EID:043b 218f8be0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-

RH> Rather, I would say that life will arise where and when it can,
RH> as a simple result of the way things are. We are here because we 
RH> CAN be, not because we MUST be.

AS> Um. Did you read what I sent Ron, about what Paul Davies said? To
AS> assert that there is no reason why the laws of physics are as they are
AS> is to clain they exist reasonlessly...which we would reject for almost
AS> anything ELSE related to science. The same scientists who would argue

Yes, but we're down to basics here. We can't ascribe reasons to such
levels. Eventually, you have to say "That's just the way it is."

AS> that nature is rationally put together at each step of the chain of
AS> reasoning all the way back to the laws of physics...and then must do
AS> an about-face, and say that when it comes to the laws, rationality can
AS> go no further, and fails. That a rational physical universe is founded

But it does. QM is irrational. True, accurate, precise, but irrational.

AS> on logical absurdity. Free-floating laws of physics that come from
AS> nowhere and have no purpose, or reason, or justification...fall into
AS> the same irrational category as...well...miracles.

Nope. We don't invoke imaginary superfriends when we run out of ideas.

RH> "Constrains" in what sense? We are constrained to live where proper
RH> conditions prevail.

AS> If there are many universes or domains, sure. But if there is only
AS> one...with one set of laws...and we can imagine many others that seem
AS> quite self-consistent...how did these laws get picked?

The laws are as they must be. Your imaginings carry no weight.

AS> Whatever do you mean? BTW, fixed the links on my pages. Check 'em
AS> out again.

Will do. Have you checked out the downloadable files on my page?



... I tried to drown my problems but they can swim.
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  SUPERSTION
|Date: 15 Dec 96  18:33:00
EID:e8a7 218f9420
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-

RH> More likely, he set it up beforehand to impress the disciples.
RH> You see, they weren't in on the plot. That's why they were willing
RH> to die for it; they didn't KNOW.

AS> And who was in on it, then? Who set up the donkey? Nicodemus? Joseph
AS> of Arithemea? He needed SOME henchmen...

Speculating, of course, but Lazarus of Bethany seems likely.

Doesn't really matter as long as the 12 were ignorant of it.




... I hit the CTRL key but I'm still not in control!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 12 Dec 96  18:56:00
EID:3f90 218c9700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582b
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...

Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

>> I have a legitimate salaried position as Praise and Worship Leader with
>> this church (not mine).

>  SM> LEGITIMATE means that you are selling something of actual VALUE to
>  SM> someone.

>  JS> I do. I sell talent and ability. If you chose to place no value on
>  JS> talent and ability, that is your biz. (don't buy any more records,
>  JS> watch sports, buy _anything_ that sponsors entertainment of any sort).

> Sean, selling one's services as a singer (and/or selling
> self-produced tapes) is not "legitimate" business?

SM> Not when the real product in question is Jimbo's NON-EXISTENT
SM> superfriend. 
SM> Note well that the claim I take exception to isn't that Jim is a
SM> singer, or that he sells tapes of his music. 
SM> The claim I WAS taking exception to, AS DIRECTLY CITED ABOVE, was the
SM> "Praise and Worship Director" in his cult. 
SM> And I was taking the sole exception to the same that is directly
SM> topical to this Echo -- that he is selling, in fine, a product that
SM> doesn't exist -- his God. 
SM> Were Jim to actually sell his ADVERTIZING for this God as the actual
SM> PRODUCT, none of this conversation would have come up. 
SM> But his music -- which is legitimate GOODS and not disputed -- is only
SM> a means to an end. Again, were it the actual product itself, I would
SM> have no real problem with it. 


His music is the actual product.  Much of what is termed
"entertainment" has a message of some sort attached to it - some I
agree with, some I do not.  And other people have their own views as
to what they agree with and what they don't.  Ted Nugent sells
hunting with some of his songs.  I disagree with this, but prefer to
counter with my own form of entertainment that houses an
anti-hunting message.  Gangsta rappers sell violence with their
music; other musicians sell peace through theirs.  Some music is
percieved to sell drug use; others make music, TV shows, and stories
that sell anti-drug ideas.  Jim sells the idea of his god; I sell
strips that ridicule religion in general.  Though our messages may
be completely opposite, and we work with different media, I support
Jim's right to sell his form of entertainment, and defend his right
to freedom of speech to house whatever message he wishes in his
music.  People will buy what they will - I would not buy Ted Nugent
albums, and indeed change the radio station if he comes on.  I'm
quite sure Mr Nugent would not buy my work, except, perhaps, to burn
it or to publically denounce it on WLLZ FM when he acts as "guest
DJ". 

Perhaps legitimate entertainment, to you, is either 1) entertainment
that houses messages that YOU agree with, or 2) entertainment that
is simply mindless and has no "memes" in it at all.  

SM> Of course, the entire industry at that point would be tax-SUBJECT
SM> rather than tax-EXEMPT except for Jimmy's personal income. (Ask Frank
SM> Sinatra!!) 

Ah, the church may not pay taxes, but it pays Jim money that HE has
to pay taxes on.  Therefore, Jim's job is not tax-exempt.  If he is
running his tape-selling operation as an actual business, then he
must pay business taxes on the money he makes from those sales.

SM> The income tax Jimmy pays on that income is a single hydrogen atom
SM> compared with the MINIMUM freebies his cult gets, that we secular
SM> sector folks pay out the ass for. (All I need to know here is that the
SM> cult holds realty of any kind in any way.) 

The money that ANY corporation pays is a drop in the bucket to the
taxes that the individual pays.  The big corporations, in the end,
pay very little compared to the money they make; US companies
operating in Canada effectively pay nothing, thanks to transfer
payments - just like churches.  And I find corporate tax breaks a
lot worse and more insidious than the tax breaks religious
organisations get; at least ANY little crackpot religion, including,
say, Kali cults, Odin cults, or whatever, could get tax exempt
status .. a small businessman running a mom and pop store could
never hope to get the breaks the big corps do.

SM> The point here is that it is Jimmy's non-existent superfriend
SM> that is the actual thing sold. And, no matter how pretty, artistic,
SM> and elaborate, a bill of goods is still a bill of goods -- even if
SM> sung by a competent singer. 

As mentioned above, most "entertainment" includes a message of some
sort, that sells some value or concept or another.  If one stops a
person from singing about his god, then one could stop people from
singing about, say, anarchy or any other concept someone or another
wishes to sing about.

SM> And of the twain, Jim (and all other commentators besides yourself)
SM> knew full well which part I was taking exception to, and argued back
SM> accordingly. 

I'm simply taking a different tack.  It appears to me that you would
limit freedom of speech; is that really what "anarchy" is about?  Do
your own thing, unless I don't like it?

> Just what is, in your reckoning?

SM> Production of actual GOODS, or direct services on said actual GOOD 
SM> in tax- subject and tax-PAYING secular industry.
SM> You know, the way Marty Leipzig and I do it.

And the way I do it; and the way Jim does it.  I'm sure the people
who listen to his music pay taxes, too.  His EMPLOYER may not pay
taxes - but then, neither do most employers, if they're big
multinationals. 

Oh, and by the way - because I deal in the BOOK media, I don't have
to charge or pay Provincial Sales Taxes on my earnings, and am also
exempt from PST on any business-related materials I buy.  As I won't
be making $30,000 a year or more, I also don't need to charge the
federal Goods and Services Tax.  All this is legal, and I myself was
surprised to learn this when I went down to the Ministry of Finance
to apply for a vendor's license/PST form.  They wouldn't even give
me one, saying it wasn't needed due to the nature of my business,
but they did give me a PST exemption form to hand out; under Licence
Number on the  form, I simply have to write "N/A - Published Material".
I'm also operating under my own name, so I'm also exempt from
business registration fees.  Oh, well, I guess it's not
"legitimate", even though the law says otherwise, and all
book-sellers are entitled to these exemptions - whether secular or
not. 

SM> Remember, CHURCHES PAY NO TAXES, unlike me. As in most Jurisdictions
SM> around the world, churches don't even pay for the public services that
SM> some socialist ripoff artists suggested that government provide
SM> everyone. 

And who was it that decided that corporations could get away with
paying little or no taxes?  Letting banks, oil companies, or
whatever operate with huge profits that they never return to the
citizens of the country they operate in is certainly non-conducive
to, well, any good at all.

> And what are YOU doing to contribute to society?

SM> Quite a bit -- sufficient to where I OWE AND PAY TAXES, which
SM> sufficeth for you. I've also never been on welfare or public funded
SM> disability "insurance", despite being well inside the qualifications

Yes, yes, I remember your whining about not being able to get it.
That argument struck me as saying "If I can't get it, then no one
else should, either, no matter how badly they might need it."

>>> Continued to next message...

--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [2/2]
|Date: 12 Dec 96  18:56:01
EID:3f60 218c9700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582c
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...


SM> for it. If I've been covered by insurance I subsequently claimed
SM> against, rest assured that I have more in paid-in premiums than I have
SM> EVER gotten back in return. 

So do most people.  

SM> Perchance is that a claim YOU can make -- never having been on public
SM> welfare or tax-funded disability assistance?? 

Never been on disability.  And while I did spend almost a year on
Social Services, it gave me the platform I needed to no longer
require it.  I feel I have nothing to be ashamed for; I pay the
sales taxes that go into these services, too, and plan to make
enough in the future to more than pay back what I took out through
income taxes.  I have also had several and varied jobs in the past
on which I did pay income tax.

You, however, would have had me shot as soon as I was at the end of
my rope and had no choice but to turn to the safety net my
governemnt and society provided for just such an emergency.  In
return, I had to abide by their rules: to apply for any job or
opportunity that presented, and to apply to a minimum number of
opportunities a month (40-60); to stay in the country (no trips to
next-door Detroit, a mere 3 minute drive away); to report in once a
month with a job search form; to go anywhere that my worker said to
go (though I discovered the woodshop programme on my own); and to
live on a mere $195 a month (and to settle for housing that cost
less than $325 a month, in a place where the average bachelor
apartment is $650/mo).

SM> I believe that the traditional determinant level here under English
SM> common law is three days' average local labor wages in taxes paid. 
In
SM> a typical year, I pay considerably more than that in aggregated tax
SM> payments of various kinds. 
SM> (Local labor averages about US$25 per diem net; the cheapest I've got
SM> off from Mr. TaxMan in recent years has been around US$2500, or about
SM> 100 days net local labor wages.) 
SM> So, to recap: I make my living in the secular, tax-subject
SM> marketplace. My customers, whether regular employers or temporary-help
SM> customers, pay me to assemble/troubleshoot/install/repair actually
SM> extant physical goods. Said customers pay taxes on their assets of all
SM> kinds going in, while held, and going out to me, at which point *I*
SM> pay taxes on the assets as I receive them, when I dispose of them, and
SM> in many cases whilst I hold them as well. 

Jim also sells his product.  I sell mine.  Entertainment is a form
of message-spreading, even if the ulterior other motive is making a
quick buck - most entertainers DO want to make money off what they
do, even if they do love what they do and have something to say
while they entertain.  And entertainment, of all forms, falls under
freedom of speech considerations, which you would seem to deny to a
segment of the population just because you don't like what they have
to say.

A lot of "secular" country music has a religious message to it as
well .. "Deck of Cards" is an old, old, c&w song I remember from
when I was a kid, about a guy who walked into a church, sat down,
and pulled out a deck of cards.  The preacher complained, and the
fellow proceeded to equate each card to a biblical message.  This
was played on "secular" country stations, and more like it.
Similarly, the old hippy song, "Signs" sells anarchism, lawbreaking,
and inconsideration for private property (as when the individual
sits on a fence posted with "No Trespassing" and procedes to yell at
the landowner.) George Harrison's rip-off song, "My Sweet Lord", of
course, sells Krishna, and this song is still played on "secular"
oldies stations, alongside "Spirit in the Sky" (yes, I actually
heard these two songs played one after another on the same
station).  And then there's Venom, who playfully "sell" Satanism in
their own weird way (and of course there are always weenie kids who
take THEM seriously.) Conversely, Iron Maiden's "Run to the Hills"
sells social conscience - it's about the slaughtering of Indians by
whites.  Redgum, the Australian folk band, sells Communist
revolution in, well, everything they sing.  U2 sells every
pro-social message one could think of.  The folks who record and
sell whalesong are selling environmental awareness.  I have two
albums by various artists selling animal rights concepts, and I know
of at least one more, not counting the Greenpeace album.  Kevin
McKenzie sent me a tape of filk music that sells the space
programme and the idea of space exploration and settlement.  I could
go on - this is just music I'm familiar with, and which I basically
have in my own collection.  I get bored with music that has nothing
to say rather quickly, or that simply involves "guy meets girl, gets
hurt" or similar tried love/sex themes, no matter how hard or soft
the music is.

The god Jim sings about may not exist - but then, neither does the
god George Harrison sings about.  Neither do the entities that Venom
sings about.  And neither do the fairies and elves Celtic rock
artists sing about exist.  The Celt artists may not be "selling"
their elves and fairies, but Harrison is certainly selling Krishna.
And I would not wish to curtail whatever George wants to sing
about - even though I find Hinduism as silly as Christianity, Temple
(religious) Taoism, Buddhism, Sub Genius silliness, or any other
religion or quasi-religion that even one person takes half-seriously
- as I want to hear what others have to sing about, and don't want
someone coming along saying this or that music is not "legitimate"
because they don't like what the music is selling.


--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Are you one of Ali Babble's forty dweebs?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Darkness
|Date: 13 Dec 96  17:33:02
EID:d707 218d8c20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582d
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Martin Goldberg cast Darkness at David Worrell ..
and all hell broke loose.

MG>> Nice god you got there, Bobby.
DW> Did you ever see _Pulp Fiction_?
DW> This guy is pathetic.

MG> Most are.

MG> No, I don't do movies these days.  I hate to go and pay $8 per and
MG> then take a loan out for drinks and popcorn only to sit behind Wilt
MG> Chamberlain and in front of a guy excercising his jaw muscles, only
to
MG> be cut off by some asshle in a beemer when leaving the parking lot.

MG> All for a second rate movie.

If I really, really want to see a flick at the theatre, I go to a
matinee, when it's only $4.50.  The snacks are still expensive, but
hey.  And I try to avoid the Wilt Chamberlains by sitting as close
to the front as possible (especially for sci-fi spectaculars).

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... It's 1999:  Do you know where your quantum physicist is?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
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3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  "Flat Earth" Town [1/2]
|Date: 14 Dec 96  04:09:03
EID:91ac 218e2120
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582e
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, David Worrell cast "Flat Earth" Town [1/2] at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

SA> anti-government shutdowns and protests.  Harris again says he
SA> doesn't care, even though this is the main manufacturing centre
SA> (mainly automobiles) in the country.

DW> That reminds me. During my (admittedly short) stay in Canada, I didn't
DW> see any "Canadian" automobiles. While I'm sure that many of the cars
I
DW> saw were built in Canada, they were all American or overseas brand
DW> names. 

Yup.  We're probably the only country in the world without its own
auto company.  Even the Australians still keep the name of Holden,
even though it, too, is owned by GM.

DW> *Is* there a Canadian automobile company? Damn near every other
DW> industrialized nation has at least *one* line all its own. Surely you
DW> Canadians could outdesign the Russian Trabant (a group of severely
DW> intoxicated monkeys with no design experience whatsoever could
DW> outdesign the Trabant), the Yugo, the Hyundai, or any of a number of
DW> other cars from marginally industrialized nations. 

We probably could, but there hasn't been a native auto company since
McGlaughlin Motors was bought out by GM in the 1920s or 1930s.  And
GM never bothered to preserve the name of Samuel McGlaughlin in any
of its Oshawa, Ontario plants, makes or models.

He was a distant relative of mine, too, the weasel.  He should never
have sold out.

DW> Do the Canadian equivalent of the "Buy American or buy nothing" people
DW> walk everywhere they go? 

The only game in town (at least THIS town) is the Big 3. The
Japanese and Koreans have set up branches in other cities.  I don't
know why this is; perhaps nobody bothered.  Perhaps by the time the
Auto Pact came about, it was too late - the Big 3 was too
entrenched.  

Given how much engineering talent we have, a good Canadian car,
designed for northern climes, could be manufactured - but it'd take
a huge capital investment and/or full or part ownership by the
government to at least get it started and competing.  I'm not
personally averse to the latter, but the Free Trade Agreement would
probably quash any such effort summarily.

Good point though, and it's something I think I'll be bringing up in
my business class on Tuesday.  I have a feeling that the best I'll
get is whining about how we couldn't "compete" with the US and the
Japanese (which is bullshit; even Greece seems to have native car
companies; at least, when I went there, I saw lots of cars with
names I didn't recognise).  Even a Crown Corporation auto company
would probably do better for the economy, rather than having all the
money we spend on new cars go back to Japan, the US, the UK or
Germany.  Hmm.  Perhaps there's someone in Parliament who could be
approached as to backing towards an auto co. ...

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Galactic Conquest Or Bust. -- Borg bumper sticker
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Doug Lee
|Sub:  "Flat Earth" Town
|Date: 14 Dec 96  04:21:04
EID:5717 218e22a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582f
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast "Flat Earth" Town at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.

SA> While I have no interest in "dance bars", one of the things I
SA> enjoyed most about being in army cadets was our weekend and holiday
DL> ^^^^^^^^^^^

DL> Umm....just how old *are* you??

DL> Or is this like reminising about "your youth"??

More like reminiscing about a youth that's long, long gone by.  Note
past tense.

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Hail to the Sun god! He is a fun god! Ra! Ra! Ra!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Doug Lee
|Sub:  fundy clown
|Date: 14 Dec 96  04:22:05
EID:0aac 218e22c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55830
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast fundy clown at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.

SA> I haven't seen Marty say this; I missed quite a bit of mail
SA> recently.

DL> You have? Then I suppose you missed all the Mage stuff I sent.

No, I got it, all right.  I meant, basically, that I missed all the
mail that may have flown through here during a two month sabbatical
away from HolySmoke due to lack of HD space.

Hey, I wanted to play Doom and Heretic, and there was simply no room
left for multiple mail packets.

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Maybe God is a kid playing SimUniverse.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Chris Green
|Sub:  your daily brother co
|Date: 14 Dec 96  04:25:06
EID:4daf 218e2320
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55831
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Chris Green cast your daily brother co at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.

SA> I don't particularly follow the sport, either.  I used to like
SA> baseball, before they fucked it up.  Now I'd rather watch rugby, or
SA> even soccer.  I don't quite _understand_ them yet, but I like
SA> watching them.

CG> The difference between them being that Rugby is a game for animals
CG> which is played by gentlement; while soccer is a game for gentlemen
CG> which is played by animals!

Hehehe.  I remember seeing that somewhere, though the word was
"rogues", not "animals".

CG> You might have noticed a lack of padding or body armour; and rugby
CG> casualties have to have something serious like a broken neck, before
CG> they leave the field of battle - extraneous bits of the human body
CG> that get ripped off, eg: ears, are temporarily surgically-taped back
CG> into place, ready for stitching at half-time or full-time.

OUCH!  I didn't realise THAT.  I did see people go down, and be
prodded back up, but I don't recall seeing body bits flying about.


--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... If a dragonrider had a pet wolf, it'd be a weyr-wolf!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:07:07
EID:3f90 219048e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55832
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...

Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> Frankly, I find your tirades against "superfluous" people tiresome
> and insulting at best.

SM> Poor baby. Here, have some cheese to counterbalance all that WHINE.

Go stuff it in a box, Sean.  You're the biggest whiner on the echo.

SM> It's not MY fault that Thomas Malthus was right, and that the sole
SM> reason we've managed to evade his direst predictions so far is that
we
SM> (i.e., the Eurasian races of humans) are so much in love with
SM> virtually continuous long-term warfare that we killed half ourselves
SM> off each and every generation prior to my own -- and then ended up
SM> facing the hard, cold fact of NO extant solution of any kind to the
SM> problems Herr Malthus CORRECTLY warned us about. 

Actually, his theories have been debunked in modern studies.

SM> This is a series of inter-related FACTS, Sue. Hurtful facts that
SM> demolish your socialist bullshit fantasies. Hurtful facts that I
SM> *dare* make SURE that you see and deal with. 

SM> Like the FACT that NO form of socioeconomic system except
SM> laissez-faire, free enterprize, secular-only capitalism will EVER work
SM> on THIS planet. (There are just too fucking many of us who want ALL
of
SM> our income for OURSELVES as INDIVIDUALS. And we are entitled to just
SM> such.) 

Tell that to the North Koreans.  THeir society, under their
Communist system, is better off than you could ever hope to be under
capitalism.  And they're not exactly few in number, with the
population of Canada sqeezed into an area barely the size of Nova
Scotia, and with land that is practically marginal.  They're
self-sufficient, independent, with 0% unemployment, and they don't
pay taxes.  They have a lack of hydro-electic plants, but their
cities are far less polluted than North American ones, European
ones, and other Asian ones.  They don't have street lighting at
night, but no one fears the dark - and a friend of mine who returned
from there recently did not note any guns toted by the populace, or
by police. 


SM> Or the FACT that either two thirds of living human beings -- or ALL
SM> living wolves Planetwide, one -- are superfluous.  Comes with the
SM> territory at the top of the various food chains (where both humans and
SM> wolves are stuck, as no member of Kingdom Animalia makes its primary
SM> living predating directly on either one's healthy adults). 

And I am still not convinced that YOU don't count under
"superfluous".  Social drop-out wrench monkeys who live with their
grandmas like yourself are a dime a dozen.  You would not be missed
at all were you to have your brains blown out by the gun-toting
nutters you idealise.

And I'm not totally convinced that you even HAVE a job, and aren't
sponging off family members at your age.  Becke let on that the
reason she dropped you like a radioactive potato was because you
were a lazy, ignorant fuck who refused to bother to even look for
work, because everything was "beneath you", and you had it too good
at gramma's house to be concerned about walking the walk as well as
talking the talk.

I also found it amusing that you considered it your right to be
polygamous, while she had to be monogamous.  There's your
dictatorial streak showing again.

Is desiring and considering it your right to bed other mens' wives a
common thing for you or are you again simply jealous of what others
have and are inadequate in gaining for yourself?

Oh, and is dumpster diving just a hobby, or are you simply too out
of it to be able to buy (and thus pay sales taxes) on things your
grandma can't or won't buy for you?

SM> Live With It, as you have no choice. The most two-leggeds we can have
SM> living, where wealth redistribution would make ANY significant
SM> difference, is around TWO billion -- no more. At that level, if all
SM> the cash and chattel wealth on the Planet were spent acquiring them
SM> (and assuming that these things WERE to be had for the money),
SM> everyone would have a bare-essentials (but sufficient) diet of food,
a
SM> crude shelter barely sufficient for the associated climate, and two
SM> similar suits of cheap clothes. 


And just which 2 billion would you keep?  Whites who think exactly
like you do?  What would you do with the other four, herd them into
concentration camps and gas them?  Your hatred seems so vast, I've
no idea how you could even FIND 2 billion that you like enough to
keep around. 

Why not also gas the Todds, Sean?  They believe in non-existant
Pagan dieties - and there are singers you could gas, too, that sing
about the same non-existant Pagan dieties.  Gee, Katherine
Wintersnight also holds Pagan diety beliefs.  Hey, there's three
people gone already, on top of Al and Lynda (who ALSO believe in
non-existant dieties - never forget that Lynda is a Christian, too)
as well as the fundies.  And if there were a diety police running
around, I think they should grab you, too, just for having that
silly "Kali wants you" signature file.  Kali, of course, does not
exist, and you are "espousing" this non-existant diety by
advertising it in your posts.  See you in the death camps, bubula.

If you hate people who espouse dieties that don't exist, at least be
fair, and don't stop with gassing Christians.  Gas 'em all, let
their gods sort 'em out.  After all, if the Pagans got power, they
too might demand fucked-up rules.  Better safe than sorry, eh?  Or
at least gag them all, so they can't sing about THEIR dieties to
those who also don't want to listen.  Or write about them, or in any
way make a living off of making entertainment that features
non-Christian dieties.  After all, someone, somewhere, is going to
take the message to heart and start worshipping these dieties.  And
then you can kill them, too, for  being superfluous.

Or you could just take the path that sane people do - live and let
live, and don't buy products that say what you don't wish to hear.

Also note that not everyone who might listen to Christian music
believes what the lyrics say, just as everyone who might listen to
pagan music might not believe, either (I've known people who went to
the local roller rink's Christian music nights to skate because
those nights attracted people who didn't push and shove each other
while they skated, as was common on Saturdays.) To think otherwise
is akin to the fundies who insist that White Wolf Game Studio
"sells" vampire cultism.

SM> There are *SIX* billion people on the Planet, Sue. THREE TIMES as many
SM> as can be fed, clothed, and housed appropriately at the price of the
SM> Planet's total net chattel wealth. 

Hogwash.  Tons of grain are wasted every year in warehouses, simply
to artificially prop up the price.  Fast food joints waste more in a
week than most countries consume in a year.

SM> Were world wealth distributed equally today, we would ALL be starving,
SM> freezing (or burning as applicable for location), homeless (or
SM> essentially so) and near-naked. Or each of us would be faced with the
SM> bitter choice of WHICH biological needs we want to have met, knowing
SM> the others never will be. 

Basic biological needs could easily be met - but the demands of
capitalism decree that people WILL be starving, simply so a select
few can make more money than they'll ever have a use for.

> Now you hint that being in the entertainment
> industry (of whatever sort) is not "legitimate", even though people
> DO want and pay for these products and services.

SM> Kindly immolate your strawmen elsewhere, dear.

SM> I made no such claim of any kind.

SM> I STATED, not hinted, that my exception was being made to the fact
SM> that the bottom-line product in JimBo's case is not his music, neither
SM> his services, but his non-existent God-thingie. 

And as mentioned, most entertainment sells something other than the
concrete tape, film reel, CD, or printed matter.

SM> Were Jim to make enough as a SECULAR something-or-other to make a
SM> house payment in one week's net wages, this entire conversation would
SM> have been dead long before you jumped in with both feet where thinking
SM> folks rightly fear to tread. 

Secular, schmecular.  You'd probably whine the same tune if it were
any other message in the entertainment that you didn't like, secular
or not.  Or at the very least, are duplicitous in your choice of

>>> Continued to next message...

--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [2/2]
|Date: 14 Dec 96  05:20:08
EID:3f60 218e2a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55833
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...

what's "allowable" and what's not.  

Gee, Sean, I hope you never bought anything from the Church of the
Sub-Genius.  They sell an ideology, too, in their entertainment.
And frankly, I don't believe that Bob guy ever existed - his visage
seems too much a marketing logo to be real.


--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Why experiment on animals with so many anarchists out there?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 14 Dec 96  05:20:09
EID:ce84 218e2a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55834
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> Frankly, I find your tirades against "superfluous" people tiresome
> and insulting at best.  Now you hint that being in the entertainment
> industry (of whatever sort) is not "legitimate", even though people
> DO want and pay for these products and services.

SM> Let's try a short paraphrase of this passage to demonstrate why you
SM> are factually wrong here. 
SM> "Now you hint that selling cocaine (of whatever chemistry) is not
SM> 'legitimate', even though there are addicts galore who DO want
SM> and pay for powder cocaine and crack."

SM> Being a "Praise and Worship Director" for a tax-exempt cult to a
SM> non-extant deity construct is NOT the same as being in the
SM> "entertainment business". So kindly immolate your strawmen elsewhere,
SM> please. 

Speaking of strawmen .. 

Cocaine pushing is not legal.  Last time I looked, singing about the
god of one's choice was perfectly legal.  Given how destructive to
the mind both can be, perhaps they should both be illegal - but that
would be violating your cherished tenets of lassaiz-faire
capitalism. 

Also, the last time I looked, the US had laws protecting freedom of
speech.  This protects Christian, pagani, and other religious music as
well as secular, whether you like it or not. 

SM> Frank Sinatra is in the entertainment business, as evidenced by the
SM> fact that he PAYS FULL TAXES on ALL facets of his same business. (I
SM> use Sinatra deliberately here, as USIRS has cleaned Mr. Sinatra out
of
SM> ALL his tangible and liquid assets several times for not paying ENOUGH
SM> taxes; it's public news media record that he OWES them and does, in
SM> fact, pay them. He just needs better accountants occasionally -- it
SM> happens to almost all the high-rollers from time to time.) 

And Jim pays taxes on what HE makes as well.  The church employing
him is not the issue - they are paying him money which becomes
taxable as soon as it's in his hands.

> I'd like to know how you earn a living.

SM> All you need to know at this point is that I work in the lawful,
SM> secular, private-sector economy, hands-on to tangible goods. 

What Jim is doing is lawful as well, and is in the private sector.
His message may not be secular, but then neither is the message
promulgated by pagan bards.

SM> And that I've never been on public welfare or disability assistance.
SM> Anyone who EVER has been on either, for any reason, has no right or
SM> business giving ME any shit at all. 
SM> I am a tax PAYER, not and never a tax BURDEN.

I pay taxes, too, and have been since I was 15.  If I take some back
now and then out of need, what of it?

SM> Regardless of your opinion, this DOES suffice for you.

Sorry, I'll not be browbeaten by a wrench monkey with delusions of
grandeur and a serious ego problem, who thinks he's the only thing
worthy enough on the planet to be alive.

Somehow, I doubt anyone on this echo can say they've NEVER recieved
a public service, from use of free, public roads (maintained and
built by taxes), to government jobs, assistance, pensions,
Unemployment Insurance, etc.  Kill us all, Sean, and you can play
here all alone, smug in your superiority because you get to mooch
off grandma with no worries and no responsibilities.

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... May the bird of paradise DIE up your nose.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  02:33:10
EID:3f90 21901420
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55835
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...

Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> I also find your tirades odd for a supposed "anarchist".  You claim
> to not like authority, yet you wish to go around telling people what
> to do,

SM> No, I don't. That's TWO strawmen you should immolate elsewhere, dear.

SM> In my lifetime of thus far 38 years, I have witnessed the loss of ALL
SM> of the following personal rights, freedoms, and rightly-mine
SM> advantages just so some single bitch somewhere can have as many
SM> children as she wants, by as many men as she wants, without having to
SM> face the consequences personally, and ON MY NICKEL: 

Interesting.  You complain about others eschewing responsibility,
but let's examine your list.

SM> * Right to own an automobile of my own choice of brand and
SM> TECHNOLOGY; 

SM> (I want a large V-8 engine, Kettering points-based ignition,
SM> fully capable of burning leaded gas, no computers....)

They say that big cars are a way to make up for a small penis.  I
can see where this might be true.

Of course, you eschew responsibility here by wanting a gas-guzzler,
so that oil stocks may not be preserved.  You also don't seem to
care about the harm that leaded gas fumes are known to cause - I
guess you just want to ensure that more kids become brain-damaged
from leaded gas fumes so you can send them to the death camps, too,
through no fault of their own.

SM> * Right to a single-family-breadwinner income (paying job)
SM> without enforced massive personal indebtedness;

Blame capitalism for that one.  It is the private sector which
endorses lower wages, no benefits, and gets out of paying their fare
share of taxes that is thrown onto the shoulders of the working
class.  In a planned economy, taxation is unnecessary.  You take
home what you get.  Just ask a North Korean in Pyong-Yang.

SM> * Right to live outside human society, and its crapola rules,
SM> if I so choose (WITHOUT requiring me to be ultrarich to do
SM> so); 

Here you wish to eschew all social responsibility.  Ok, go live
outside of society; but you will lose all rights to dictate to it,
as you seem to wish to do.

Don't want to live by "bullshit" rules.  Hmm.  That sounds like a
small child stomping away from the playground with his marbles
because the other kids won't play by HIS rules.

Of course, I also note this is the exact same attitude of the fundy
"militias" - they also don't want to live in "society's bullshit
rules" and so strive to set up their own armed Christian paradises
apart from it.

You share more in common with the Christians than you like to
admit. 

SM> * Right to unregulated subsistence hunting and fishing
SM> (related to the last item);

Do you even understand WHY there are hunting and fishing
regulations?  Of course, an irresponsible git like you wouldn't give
a shit if you killed the last critter on the planet, just so long as
it fell to YOU.

SM> * Right to NOT patronize the extortion industry (i.e.,
SM> INSURANCE) regardless of my personal choices;

Again, another invention of capitalism.  Mandatory insurance was
demanded by private insurance companies to beef up their own
incomes, and for no other reason.  Insurance was only dreamed up in
the first place because some enterpreneur figured he could make a
quick buck by it.

Hell, insurance companies are paragons of capitalism.  You should be
proud. 

SM> * Right to virgin-land homestead myself a place to live;

Once you homestead yourself there, it's no longer "virgin".  But I'm
sure you don't mind ruining the last of what's left for your own
selfish purposes.

It's interesting to note how you dislike people getting anything at
all from the government, but consider it your right to have the
government issue you land, free-of-charge.

SM> * Right to remain free of debt if I so choose, without social
SM> or political disability;

Anyone who's careful with their money can do that.  I hold no credit
cards, and have no negatively outstanding bank balance.  And again,
under a planned economy, as is practiced in North Korea, no taxes
would be incurred.

SM> * Right to NEVER use or traffick in credit of any kind,
SM> without subsequent imposed disability or restriction of
SM> choices; 

Again, no one says you HAVE to have a credit card.  I don't find my
choices limited by dealing exclusively in cash, debit card, or
direct deposit/withdrawl. 

SM> * Right to possess any job I am qualified for, regardless of
SM> how many "politically correct" applicants of equal or lesser
SM> qualification (i.e., women, minorities, the 'differently
SM> abled', and especially BREEDERS) apply for the same job;

Ever think you might not be totally qualified?  All you seem to do
here is wish to cast blame on others for your own failings.  It's as
bad as Gen Xers who blame the Baby Boomers for their lack of
employment. 

SM> and these are just the losses I've sustained during my ADULT (voting)
SM> life. In addition, let's look at some of the losses of my childhood:


SM> * Right to an education -- that taxpayers in my parents'
SM> generation had long since paid for in full -- in reasonable
SM> schools with reasonable populations and reasonable social
SM> peace; 

Blame the folks who vote against school tax raises, and who don't
want free, non-tuition post-secondary education to be offered.

SM> * Right to visit the selfsame violence upon others that
SM> society supports those others to do unto me (and DID) without
SM> fear of governmental retribution, such as wasn't visited upon
SM> those who beat up on ME (if they can't keep me safe and
SM> un-harrassed, I DO possess the natural right to protect
SM> MYSELF with the required lethal force, without being
SM> questioned); 

Self-defense is still legal, as you mentioned.  US cities are in a
mess precisely because anyone and their dog can get a gun and exact
violence for kicks, and then folks turn around and don't wish to
support a viable police force (as well as calling peace officers
"pigs".) 

SM> and, in fine, the most important right of all:

SM> * The Right to ALL the assets I create for the benefit of me
SM> and mine, without having to cough up MORE THAN HALF of the
SM> same by order of the State to pay for children I had NO part
SM> in creating. The vast majority of the taxes I pay go to no
SM> other matters. 

Again, I hold North Korea as an example.  They have a fairly decent
standard of living, have free education (post-secondary included),
health care, and don't pay a dime in taxes.  Everything they're
paid, they keep.

SM> There is an ancient saying: "Your right to swing your arm ends an inch
SM> from my nose". Well, the breeders' right to make babies ends BEFORE

>>> Continued to next message...

--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [2/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  02:34:11
EID:3f60 21901440
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55836
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...

SM> *I* must needs make ANY sacrifice so THEY can have them. 

Too bad your own parents were "breeders".

SM> If they don't want me carping about their breeding, let them restrict
SM> themselves so that THEIR baby-making doesn't put any restrictions on
SM> MY rightful choices. All of the things I listed above as things I've
SM> lost, are things that are parts of my just and honest BIRTHright.
SM> That's right; I need do nothing to qualify for them; they are mine
SM> inherently, and my rights to ALL these things ARE senior to the
SM> breeders' non-right to breed. 

YOUR rights here, and YOUR rights there.  My, my.  I support your
right to take yourself off the planet and stop being a burden on
it.  After all, your parents were nothing but "breeders", too.  And
your grandparents.  And I bet they enjoyed whatever benefits society
entitled them to through tax payment.

SM> Now that THIS issue has been completely dealt with to absolute
SM> rights, I will commence dealing with subsequent issues. 

There is no such thing as an "absolute right".  Rights are an
illusion, granted through societal agreement and, by definition,
encoded in law.  Laws, however, can be changed - so, too, can
constitutions.  Your so-called "rights" above are not rights at all,
and never were.  All the above is, is your own whining and demanding
"me, me, me, I want a shitty, smelly car, I want to kill things with
no regard for consequences, me, me, me" like a spoiled little brat.


--Wolfie

"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... "Why don't you go bug the kids on Goof Troop?" - Dot Warner
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:20:12
EID:ce84 218f8a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55837
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

SM> Whether or not you like it, the ONLY legitimate government over ANY
of
SM> English-speaking North America is the one which REBELLED and EXPELLED
SM> the evil and wrongful Hanoverian Monarch, the USURPER George III
SM> Hanoverianus, and his bastard "Parliaments" elected by less than 10%
SM> of Britain's adulthood, from rule over us. 
SM> And like it or not, that government is entitled to ALL of
SM> English-speaking North America. The ONLY parts of that Continent with
SM> real claims to independence from the United States Congress are Quebec
SM> and Mexico as it stands today. 
SM> "Live With It."

Rather, you should live with the fact that you are wrong.

Canada as a whole gained complete independence from Britain in 1982,
with the passage of the Canada Act, which patriated the
Constitution.  The office of Governer General is purely symbolic, as
is membership in the Commonwealth; basically all that does us is get
us a place in the Commonwealth Games (a much better international
sports meet than the Olympics, in both sportsmanship and tone.)

> when to have children (or not),

SM> When MY sacrifices for THEIR breeding habits come to an end, then I
SM> will no longer possess the right to bitch that particular beef -- NOT
SM> BEFORE. Unless and until then, I am being ripped off from property,
SM> rights, freedoms, and advantages that are rightly mine. (In the
SM> typically doublespeaking socialist manner, no less.) 

What property?  What rights and freedoms?  Oh, I know - you want to
have a lead gasoline burning car, just because, and you don't want
any nasty children around that may become damaged by the fumes you
leave behind.  I see.

SM> That means that EVERY right I mentioned in the above list, which every

Again, those aren't rights.  They're wants; they're not even needs.
No one needs a lead-gas burning car, or a homestead on virgin land
(though if you want that, go to the Amazon.  Have fun.)

Your list of "rights" simply sounds like the same wistful longing
for some fanciful "golden age" that never existed, along the same
lines of the "garden of eden" myth.

SM> generation of American white men before me enjoyed to the full, is
SM> securely back in my hand. (And you'll note that NO reference is made
SM> to conversion of ANY humans into chattel of any kind, so let's not
SM> have any of THOSE whines either.) 

No, but your comment re: "American White Males" is interesting.  Is
this the only group to be accorded such rights?  Or is it simply
other groups that are getting in your way of getting all the goodies
for yourself?

SM> Until then, I possess the ONLY say here -- as my rightful properties
SM> and freedoms are being taken from me, without my individual consent
as
SM> is justly my right to demand and get. (The "plural I", meaning "me and
SM> everyone resembling me in these ways", is what I used in that sentence
SM> above.) 

And what of others who demand their rights?  How about the right NOT
to breath in lead fumes?  That's a much more real "right" than your
supposed "right" of driving a lead-gas car.

> and what sorts of jobs they can hold in order to be "contributing"
> or "legitimate" members of society,

SM> Those who sell obviously non-existent superfriends to the gullible
SM> aren't contributing to society, whether or not you want to face that
SM> hurtful FACT. A bill of goods (i.e., without corresponding real cargo)
SM> is still worthless, even if it's written up in poetry, scored for full
SM> choir and orchestra, and performed by Jim Staal, the Mor[m]on
SM> Tabernacle Choir and Orchestra, the Boston Pops Symphony, the Rolling
SM> Stones, Isaac Bonewits, and the remaining members of the Grateful Dead
SM> SIMULTANEOUSLY. 

A tape, record, video, or other product of the entertainment
industry is a real bill of goods, no matter what concept that
entertainment is selling.

SM> Nor does this mean that Jim Staal, the Mor[m]on Tabernacle Choir and
SM> Temple Orchestra, the Boston Pops Symphony, Isaac Bonewits, or the
SM> remaining members of the Grateful Dead are non-contributing or
SM> illegitimately making income, unless and until they deal their poesies
SM> the blasphemous insult of abusing them to sell the non-extant
SM> Bible-God to the gullible. At all other times, they earn their living
SM> honestly -- or at least we can afford to assume as much. 

 Again, that smacks a lot of censorship.  Almighty Sean would
keep people from singing about, buying, or listening to religious
music just because he doesn't like it.  Tell me, what else do you
consider inappropriate in entertainment?  What else would you censor
because it offends your tender ears and sensibilities?

--Wolfie

"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:32:13
EID:ce84 218f8c00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55838
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> never mind trying to say WHO can hold those jobs (ie, the handicapped
need
> not apply).

SM> That's THREE strawmen, Commie Sue.

Whatever you say, Fascist Sean.

SM> I never asserted that the handicapped need not apply for any job that
SM> they want. 

You belie this statement below.

SM> What I *did* assert is that they should only GET those jobs if they
SM> can both obtain and work in them with NO accommodation, except that
SM> which the private employers are willing to voluntarily provide. And
I
SM> made it quite clear that I demanded NO accommodation for myself,
SM> either; I *do*, however, have every right to insist that nothing is
SM> tendered anyone else that isn't tendered me. 

Do you even know WHY laws were passed to force private industry to
accomodate the handicapped?  It's because THEY WOULD NEVER DO IT ON
THEIR OWN.  They don't give a fuck if people are stuck at home,
because they can't navigate their wheelchairs anywhere.  And if
these corporations weren't FORCED to accomodate the handicapped, the
handicapped would NEVER be able to take jobs that are now available
to them, and would be forced to live - guess what - on the public
dole, simply because those jobs were DENIED to them because
companies are too worried about their fat bottom lines to accomodate
people who could turn out to be assets to their businesses.

SM> And I *do* make that insistence. That's called EQUAL Justice Under
SM> Law, a complete stranger to European Monarchical Governments like
SM> Britain's or Canada's. It's also a complete stranger to ANY Socialist
SM> or Leftist government. Equality before the law, without reverse
SM> discriminations, is an exclusively CONSERVATIVE concept, definitely
SM> right-wing indeed. 

Indeed.  It states that we should only worry about this or that
section of the citizenry, and to hell with everyone else.  And hey,
if we kept the handicapped at home, they could be doubly vilified -
vilification seeming to be exactly what the right-wing enjoys the
best.  As evidenced by yourself.

SM> How DARE I suggest that any intact young white male be as entitled to
SM> any job as his raw credentials and qualifications so indicate! The
SM> nerve I must have! 

Who says THEY are denied ANYTHING?  Why do you feel so threatened?
Because YOU have shortcomings that might be ignored were there no
"cripples" or minorities around to show you up?

SM> The "Americans With Disabilities Act" should in actuality be called
SM> "Chapter 37 Of The Compulsory Leftist Political Correctness Act". It
SM> taxes the prosperous and able -- and the handicapped who are keepin'
SM> on like they always had, without accommodation (like Dave Hamilton,
SM> among others, did for years) -- so that only those who are PC enough
SM> in leftist eyes can get what they want. Never mind that some of the
SM> rest of us want it too -- and can't see why anybody gets what is
SM> HONESTLY called SPECIAL RIGHTS over them. 
SM> California did something that it's high time ALL English-speaking
SM> jurisdictions worldwide did: it ended ALL "affirmative action"
SM> operations and requirements within California, even if it meant less
SM> money from Washington. (Or London or Ottawa or Canberra, as
SM> applicable.) 
SM> In case you're not familiar enough with American law to know the
SM> definitions, "affirmative action" means REVERSE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST
SM> WHITE MALES, as the US Supreme Court _correctly_ determined in the now
SM> much celebrated __Bakke__ case. (Today, that's DOCTOR Howard Bakke to
SM> you -- the forces of truth and honesty won one for once!!) 
SM> Now, I'll cut you even MORE of the Holy Slack. If CANADIAN laws don't
SM> have the same effect, or demand the same effect on face, and you can
SM> so evidence, I'll apologize here. But I'm pretty sure that the
SM> corresponding laws have indistinguishably identical effects on both
SM> sides of the border. (For one thing, NAFTA-Shaftya requires it.) 

NAFTA requires no such thing; your ignorance is showing yet again.

As for Canadian (Ontario) law, it is simply illegal for an employer
to ask, on resumes or job applications, what the applicant's age,
gender, religion, race, etc is.  The closest thing it comes to "age"
is asking if one is over 18 and thus legal to work full-time.  An
appli