God Damned Fundies!

---

11 Years of HolySmoke


|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   All
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:26:58
EID:d64e 2190735d
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8e6f7a
PID: FM 2.02
0   0   000   0      0   0   0000  0   0   000   0   0  00000
0   0  0   0  0      0   0  0      00 00  0   0  0  0   0
00000  0   0  0      00 00   0000  0 0 0  0   0  000    0000
0   0  0   0  0        0        0  0 0 0  0   0  0  0   0
0   0   000   00000    0    0000   0 0 0   000   0   0  00000

0000   000   0   0  0   0  00000  0   0  00000  00000   000   0   0
0      0   0  00  0  0   0  0      00  0    0      0    0   0  00  0
0      0   0  0 0 0  0   0  0000   0 0 0    0      0    0   0  0 0 0
0      0   0  0  00   0 0   0      0  00    0      0    0   0  0  00
0000   000   0   0    0    00000  0   0    0    00000   000   0   0

0000   000   0   0  0   0  00000  00000  00000  00000  00000
0      0   0  00 00  00 00    0      0      0    0      0
0      0   0  0 0 0  0 0 0    0      0      0    0000   0000
0      0   0  0 0 0  0 0 0    0      0      0    0      0
0000   000   0 0 0  0 0 0  00000    0      0    00000  00000

The HolySmoke Central Committee is calling for the formation of a
HolySmoke Convention subcommittee which will coordinate all activities
and research needed to launch the first ever world-wide HolySmoke
Convention!  If you would like to volunteer to help plan, please let
me know (Fredric Rice) either through Echo area HolySmoke, NetMail at
1:218/890.0 (818) 335-9601, or through e-mail (frice@stbbs.com or
frice@linkline.com.)

Additionally I would like to ask for someone to head-up the committee;
someone who plans to attend.  The Chairman would be responsible for
filling-in gaps in the planning and pick up anything which might have
been forgotten as well as maintaining and distributing the plan
materials.

Immediate tasks:

1) Las Vegas appears to have the lowest round-trip air fares.
Additionally it looks like a great many HolySmokers could
easilly make the drive from many States (California, Arizona,
Texas, Colorado, and Utah are all within a day's safe driving
distance.)

The committee would need to see if Las Vegas would be
acceptable and the committee would also be responsible for
collecting names and locations for people who wish to attend
so that others could car pool for the trip.  (For instance, I
would be willing to pick people up along the way even if it
is several hundred miles out of the way.)

2) Poll for a month within which the most number of people who
would wish to attend could attend then determine how many people
are likely to attend.

3) Collect hotel information from the area, offering a spectrum of
accomidations from the extremely cheap (such as perhaps the
nightly cost of a stay at a Campground of America) to the
moderately-priced.  This information should be included in a
HS-CONV.ZIP information package.

Getting three or six of us into a single largish hotel room would
also help decrease the cost of staying.  Getting into a hotel
which has a cheap all-you-can-eat buffet would also be a good
idea.  People used to sleeping on the floor should indicate that
sleeping on the floor is acceptable -- provided anyone sleeps
at all.

In fact, the hotel management need not ever learn who's sleeping
in what rooms.  They need not even be told we're attending a
convention -- as was mentioned, that could drive up the price
of everything.

4) After determining how many people are likely to attend, find out
where we can have a week-end meeting with enough space for
everyone.  If there are only a dozen HolySmokers who will attend,
this could even be a pizza shop though I would perfer to rent a
cheap meeting room in a cheap hotel.  The cost for such a room
would need to be factored into whether anyone's willing to pay for
it which is itself determined by the number of people likely to
attend.  If there's a fee for the convention then we need to get
firm committments and the committee would need to collect checks
from everyone who will be attending.

5) Find out who is willing to shuttle people from McCarren
International Airport to and from their hotels and wherever
we're having the meeting, then make that list available to
whoever wants it.  There would probably be many arival times
from individuals trickleing in yet probably only a couple
of departure times when everyone leaves at around the same
time.  (The Airport is on the way out of the city if you're
driving toward California.)

6) For the convention itself, the committee would need to do the
following:

a) Consider a theme for this year's convention.  The theme
could be used to tailor the discussions somewhat though
there probably shouldn't be any strict rules.  Some ideas
could be:

"For the most part, atheists do no good things"

"We've made a pact with demons"

"Ciya in Hell!"

Be creative; pick a common HolySmoke theme.

b) Solicit individuals willing to give a speech or presentation.
This can be any number of people depending upon the schedule
and length of time granted the individual.  It could include
rabid atheists who have something to say or rabid fundies who
have nothing to say but want time to say it anyway.  A
spectrum of individuals could be solicited to offer a wide
difference in opinions...  a militant homosexual and a woman-
hating Promise Keeper would be welcome.  (We'll want to be
sure to exclude any "pro-lifers" and, in fact, the committee
might want to consider whether metal detectors and security
would be needed.  There are a lot of nuts out there.)  We
could get a metafundy as well to throw random physics terms
at us.  He could bring his concrete pillow.

Booking individuals and publishing what they intend to
speak on might be a good idea as more people might be willing
to come if they get to hear something they're interested in.
More so:  a half-hour of rebuttle/argument/grilling could be
scheduled after each speech or presentation and a fund time
could be had by all.

c) Consider holding an awards presentation for various
categories.  The awards themselves can be pictures printed on
a Laser Printer which is symbolic of the attributes which
comprise the reasons for the award.  If an awards presentation
is agreed upon, such categories could include:

1) The award for the most rabid fundy

2) The award for the most rational fundy

3) The award for the most rabid atheist

4) The award for the most rational atheist

5) The award for the fundy which has done
the most damage to his or her religion
by talking

6) The ever popular Wind-Up Robot Award

Use your imagination.  Winners of the awards should not need
to be present yet the award winners should be notified before
the convention.  Award winners who have indicated that they
wish to attend should be notified in advance so that they can
ready a short acceptance speech OR ready a speech declining
the award.    Award winners who can't make it could
have someone who is attending read their acceptance or
declining speech from a prepaired write-up.

If a picture award isn't enough, the committee should think
about something more substancial -- like maybe a god or a
concrete pillow.

d) Think about what we should do for lunch on Saturday and
Sunday and maybe think about whether we should all try to
get together for dinner on Saturday or whether we should all
just be left on our own, forming small groups as needed
depending upon what everyone's interested in for dinner.
Some people might wish to bring camping equipment and an
ice chest with food and drinks, cooking lunch on the
tailgate of their pick-up or the hood of their car.  If
any of this goes on, they could do it in the parking lot
together!

e) Think about coordinating some activities for the Monday
following the convention in the event a group of people
want to hang around in the city kicking around for a day.
The committee could check into times and prices for
shows and what not (only if people are interested that
is.)  Maybe Elvis will be in town.

f) Can we get convention T-Shirts made up?  The committee
might consider that question and look for someone who is
willing to do a lay-out and a shop willing to print them.
The committee would need to collect T-shit fees before
having anything ordered from a shop.

g) Can we get coffee and Diet Coke during the meetings?  Or
should we maybe bring a bunch of coffee pots and make
our own coffee?  Coffee might be part of the price for a
convention room.

h) Do we want to allow people to sell things?  Maybe just
allow people to post a message on a white board offering
a note about what they're selling, where their hotel room
is and stuff like that?  I'm thinking of FidoNet software
message editors, PC cards, floppies, or perhaps anything
someone might want to have made-up for the occasion... like
Star Goat idols, perhaps, or Ciya Pepper Shakers.

i) Do we audio tape the speeches?  If so, would we make them
available to anyone HolySmoker who wants a copy?  Does
anyone want to video tape the thing?  If people write-up
their speeches, should we collect them and put them into a
file for download after the convention?  Should we provide
them before the convention so that people can form rebuttles
and arguments before the event?

j) Do we have a door prize?

k) Do we provide a computer and modem in a hotel room running
IRC so that people who can't come can type at people who
did come?

l) Do we schedule a couple of free-form argument periods?  We
could pass around a sea shell and whoever holds it has the
floor.  }:-}

m) The Chairman of the committee would need to check every
message in the HolySmoke echo and keep copies of every
message which discusses the convention.  The subject line
of the messages is often not enough to determine whether
the message is discussing the convention though HolySmokers
could make a habit of offering a descriptive subject when
they discuss it.

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)
SEEN-BY: 124/9005 218/890
PATH: 218/890


|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Robert Burke
|Sub:  Our Daily Ignorant rant
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:10:34
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36e
PID: FM 2.02
RB> always been there. Science to me is just our slow unlocking of
RB> creation. The Supreme scientist.

DC> Where did he get his degree from?  Best guess is from an unacredited
DC> 2 year school with a BS in Bullshit.

rb> You are brilliant! Your insults evidence your vast knowledge.

Why didn't you answer his question, Robert?  Could it be because you lied?
And could it be that you lied because your death cult TEACHES you to lie?

Well?

~*~  Ok, name on person that has witnessed a Monkey turn into a man.
- Chris Vetter

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Ray Talley
|Sub:  "Flat Earth" Town
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:40:59
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8e9695
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 32b569bf
PID: FM 2.02
AM> Imagine a world where all voluntarily lived by the golden rule,
AM> treat others as they would be treated. No wars, no armies to
AM> support.

rt> How many wars were started (and continue
rt> to be started) by relgious zealots?

All of them.  Or, to be fair, all wars are justified by gods.  Even when
the United States was bombing Iraq, there were comments by people interviewed
by the media to the effect that the non-existant Muslim gods weren't going
to save them.  It was true but the opinion was expressed to convey the belief
that the Christanic gods would win.

AM> No need for police or courts.

rt> Your priest will decide your guilt or innocence.

Based upon how much money the priest can get out of it.

AM> No rape,

rt> Since according to fundy rules, all women
rt> must submit to thier husband on command.

Christians rape children in far greater numbers than non-Christians -- in
Christianic societies.  Being a Christanic death cultist doesn't detract
from being a rapist one iota.  It only grants them an excuse.

~*~  What are the dictates of my god ? - Paul Churchill
What ever your masters say they are. - Fredric L. Rice

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)

|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Amazing Randi Goodie #1
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:49:07
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8e9696
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d90
PID: FM 2.02
FR> fucks take a picture of something, install it in an empty
FR> box with an antenna on it, and pretend that it'l find
FR> whatever's on the picture.  They started using black apoxy
FR> on the picture to keep from anyone finding out the "secret"
FR> to the device.

rs>  LOL . . . Now we know . . . kind of a
rs> space-aged dowsing of some sort, eh?

Space Age prices, any way.  The Quatro frauds used to "explain" how the
device worked without describing what went into it.  When it was discovered
that it was an empty box with a picture inside and an antenna outside, the
frauds started to use epoxy to cover the picture.  Eventually they started
to "photograph" what the box was "designed" to find with photocopiers which
had the lamps disconnected -- yeah, that results in no reproduction on the
blank piece of paper but they didn't want (so they claimed) other companies
to steal the "science."

Also the fucks wrote down words on a piece of paper or cardboard, epoxied
it over so that it couldn't be seen, then stuck it inside the empty box.
The claims were just like Lee and Brawley's claims -- random physics terms
slopped out in no particular order specifically designed to sucker the ignorant
and the gullible.

That teachers and school supervisors bought several is disappointing to
say the least.  That various government agencies (like the DEA) bought dozens
is even worse.

FR> They sold dozens of them to people who should know better --
FR> DEA people who thought it could detect illegal drugs and
FR> other government officials.

rs> Well, stupidity knows no bounds, apparently . . .

Yep.  And Quatro also sold a magnet package that "halfed fuel consumption."
Many agencies tried it -- State construction crews and such on their tractors
and such -- and reported that it worked.

When all the claims were put to scientific tests, the charges of fraud started
to get written up.

ar>  Some months back, I discussed the silly device known as the
ar>  "Quadro" rod, a stick that claimed to be means of detecting
ar>  golf balls, guns, and drugs at a distance by super-technology
ar>  invented and offered for sale by the Quadro Corporation of
ar>  Harleyville, S.C.

FR> That's the one!    What kind of an idiot would buy
FR> this fraud?

rs>  The average kind of idiot?

We seem to have a bumper crop every year.

~*~  I figure if they wanted to keep the bridge, they
wouldn't have left it out in the forest all night. - Unknown

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  fundy clown
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:58:20
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36a
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d91
PID: FM 2.02
js> Ha! I laugh you to scorn!
ML> Ha! We laugh at your idiocy.
js> A bit of an MPD problem, Herr Doktor?
dc> Wrong, Jimbo.  I join Marty in his laughter at your idiocy.
FR> Me too.  I'm laughing at you too, Jim.

rs> Me three.  Jimson is always good for a decent
rs> laugh or two, and this case is no exception . . .

What's a real horror is that some people like Staal actually vote.

~*~  Sorry but your arguement that lightbulbs disprove
Christianity does not quite convince me.  - Steve Bedard

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:01:37
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36b
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d92
PID: FM 2.02
MG> Do I hear Las Vegas Gideon Bibles burning?

What a wonderful idea!  A contest to see who can get the most copies!

SQ> If we're lucky, we'll each find
sq> copies of the Book of Mormon in our rooms.

rs> If not, I bet we can order down for them . . .

We could all ask for copies of a whole bunch of cult mythologies, from the
Koran to the sayings of the Buddah to the Urantia.  When the hotel clerk
says he hasn't got any of them, toss a fit about how the hotel's management
is anti-American and engageing in religious persecution.

Liking it more every minute.

~*~  God doesn't care what you think. -- James Davis

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:04:31
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36c
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d95
PID: FM 2.02
sh> I'm saying that asking about "needing" to be saved is a
sh> meaningless question.
RS> Why?
FR> Because being "saved" from a logical absurdity is
FR> meaningless, I suppose.  It may be an admission from him or
FR> sorts.

rs> I can accept that.

Except that now he's claiming he said no such thing.    It didn't
take long for him to fall into lock-step with all the rest.

rs> Since he doesn't want to actually engage in conversation,
rs> but would rather have a metaphysical circle jerk, I don't
rs> need to pay any more attention to him, and have told him
rs> so.  I can live with one less inane person.  

That does seem to be the traditional "Onward Christian Soldier," huh?  They
want their intellectual betters to stand quietly and listen to their rants
yet when pressed for evidence or when asked even the simplest of questions,
they're just not interested.

It's true of the fundies that come to the door as well as the fundies that
make the mistake of coming through here.

~*~  ... Rush Limbaugh gay? That's enough to make homosexuals homophobic.
- David Rice

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Jesse does no good thinking
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:08:45
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36d
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d96
PID: FM 2.02
FR> money, jump-start people's cars for them, even fix women's
FR> cars if they won't start in the parking lot...  And when my
FR> CPR certificate was good and I carried my radios in my car,
FR> I used to help out at accidents.

rs> How dare you!  You drive Jesse's theory right up
rs> on the rocks of oblivion by such behavior!  

Jesse got the truth shoved up his ass the same day he posted his blathering
lunatic insanity.  Man, Richard, there was no shortage of atheists shoving
it up his ass -- and yet even now, after so many people enumerated the good
things they routinely do -- he still wants to play pretend.

He was taught such nonsense by his masters and he'll be damned if he'll
accept the truth.  Doubtless he just thinks that everyone who rubbed his
nose in it are lying -- I mean, his masters can't be lying so everyone else
must be.

FR> don't see it as an insult.  When I'm told "god bless you," I
FR> _do_ make it a habbit to say, "Who?  I don't believe I
FR> caught the name."

rs> Dependent on how long you can keep that
rs> exchange going, it could be fun . . .

I've only had one fundy sputter and say, "I find that the more I learn the
more I believe in god."  I pointed out that what he experiences is still
the argument from ignorance; the more one learns the more one learns how
much they don't know.  The fucker turned blue and he really wouldn't work
with me after that.

~*~  There are many who are really troubled because low, debasing thoughts
come into the mind, and are not easily banished. - Phil Morrison
They become Christian clergy, in fact. - Fredric Rice

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Robert Burke
|Sub:  Utterly evil death cult
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:11:47
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee36f
PID: FM 2.02
RB> I have never seen the 10 commandments plastered anywhere in a p
RB> building and as far as I know seperation of church and state fo
RB> it.

DC> As it should do to all superstitious bullshit.

rb> We should also teach our children
rb> the pain, horror, and pain of atheism.

Children are _born_ atheists, you ignorant, superstitious savage.  It takes
an evil person to destroy a child's mind by making her believe there are
gods and deadly ideologies like "sin."

~*~  This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ.
There are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are
going to be transformed into rabid Christers. - John Prewett

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Jesse Jones
|Sub:  Comrade Fredric
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:13:46
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee370
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 15abdcb6
PID: FM 2.02
JJ>         For the subtlety impaired, my reference to your stay
jJ> in the  former Soviet Union had nothing to do with your
JJ> passport entries, but  instead recalled your vigorous
JJ> defense of the F.S.U. as the moral  equivalent of the U.S.A.

RS> So you lied just for laughs?  Is this typical Xtian behavior?

ijcj> Perhaps for the humor impaired I should also
ijcj> have included an appropriate emoticon.

You only prove yourself even more the Christian by digging your hole deeper,
Jesse.  A ___REAL___ man would have simply admitted he made a mistake. 
But then you're not a real man, are you?

~*~  You do realize that this echo has made me into this twisted, vile
fiend that now stands before you. - Drew Webber (HolySmoke)  }:-}

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Shelby Sherman
|Sub:  Scientific Theories.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:14:42
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee371
REPLY: 1:123/67 32b57c78
PID: FM 2.02
LA>    "Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described,
LA>  one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations.

ss> Idiot.  One human skull found in the same
ss> geological strata would falsify evolution.

The fucker knows it.

ss> I am sick and tired of reading your ignorant ramblings
ss> about a subject that you know nothing about.

Which is why he continues.  Ignore the fucker and he'll go away, I bet.

~*~  Hey, man, that's straight from satan's hell. - Phil Morrison

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)


|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  COINCIDENCE FIVE
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:18:41
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee372
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 b5f31ecc
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Ed!  Man, I thought they gave you ten to fifteen!  What are you doing
FR> out? }:-}   (Sorry;  Duran Duran did it.  Honest.)

em> Actually, they let me have a computer here in the hole. That's
em> not why I was incognito for awhile. Our hub lost major mail
em> feed for nigh onto a week, awhile back. If I didn't have a full
em> batch of pruno already made up, I might have jumped off the top
em> tier.

I don't blame you a bit.  Life without pruno is meaningless.   }:-}

em> Whatever became of this bright fellow? Haven't seen
em> any posts from him in many moons.

FR> I think he finally found some of those "militant homosexuals"
fr> he was constantly all aquiver over and doesn't have any more
fr> time for us guys and gals on HolySmoke.

em> Oh damn. I wanted to show him a new safe-sex trick I learned
em> here in the D-block. All you need is an empty toilet-paper core
em> and some fresh, warm liver.

  Yes, Ed is back.  }:-}

I am reminded of the Christian church bulletin board announcement which
read, "Safe Sex.  All those wishing to attend come in the rear."

~*~  'SIN' is a purely religious concept. To those of us who have no
religion, sin doesn't exist except as an abstract theoretical
concept. - Kelsey Bjarnason

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Richard Smith
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Catholic schools
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:31:46
EID:5eea 21907be0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 2b5a9d98
REPLY: 1:105/40.667 b9f5d09b
};> Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to Richard Smith <:(

DC> On (14 Dec 96) Richard Smith got back to Don Martin...
EM> For a minute, she almost made me forget about my prepubescent
EM> adoration of Barbara Feldon.
DM>     Me, I was strongly attracted to Imogene Coca.
RS>  I have the perpetual hots for Dianna Rigg, myself . . .
DC> Now your talking!  (Though I wouldn't mind if Barbara Feldon
DC>  ate crackers in my bed, either!)

So your nickname is Crackers? 

Ditto on Agent 99 . . .

Quid, Me Anxius Sum?

Richard
Smith

--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: Syr Undry BBS  ):>  Bendigaid  };>  (916) 922-9046 (1:203/9046)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 203/9046 1102 992 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Alignment list
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:39:00
EID:d521 219034e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 67b3f7c7
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5eed206d
On (14 Dec 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to All...

KW> -------------
KW> Name             Location            Alignment             In the
KW> 'Smoke

KW> Lynda Bustilloz  Southern Maryland   chaotic unique        1 1/2 years

Marilyn Burge         Portland, OR        freethinker           4 years
(I guess
12-28-38

KW> Mike Hardy       Mobile, Alabama     former evangelical    2 years
KW>                                      Christian turned
KW>                                      Open-minded agnostic.



KW> Katherine
KW> Wintersnight     El Paso, TX, USA     Wiccan                1 1/2
KW> years




KW> ---
KW>  * OLXWin 1.00a * Chef: (n.) Any cook that swears in French


KW> --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
KW>  * Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes
KW> (1:381/123)



... ...                                  <

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  Thanksgiving
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:44:16
EID:8cb4 21903580
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 03c2bc67
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b3d4b0
On (15 Dec 96) Steve Quarrella wrote to Martin Goldberg...

SQ> Salue, Martin!

SQ> Mercurii dies December 11 1996, Dixit Martin Goldberg ad Jesse Jones:

SQ>  SQ>>> Just an atheist out here doing good things.
SQ>  JJ>> Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.
MG> Are you still claiming thta atheists do no good acts?

SQ> As if I'm responsible to him for what I do and don't do.  That's a
SQ> large part of his problem:  He, as a Fundamentalist Christian, has a
SQ> "God-given" right to order others around.

What IS IT about Christers that makes them think they have
a franchise on virtue?

I saw a "debate" between William Bennett and Mario Cuomo a
few nights ago, and William Bennett spent nearly his whole
time at the mike telling all of us that society needed gawd
in order to solve all the problems of welfare, teenage pregnancy,
unemployment, crime, and ingrown toenails.  

Come Q&A time, I found a mike and reminded him that we had
been hearing that from the Republicans for years now, and
all they had been able to give us was a man whose SECOND
wife was knocked up when he married her, a presidential
candidate who had dumped his first wife to marry his current
one, and speaker of the house who had gone to his first wife's
hospital bed and dumped her immediately following major
surgery....

It was at that point they turned off my mike.

Hope I made my point.


... A clash between the Yugo of belief and the Kenworth of reality.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  purpose and ethics
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:50:44
EID:43a5 21903640
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 cc8403e2
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b3da5e
On (15 Dec 96) Steve Quarrella wrote to Jesse Jones...

SQ> You are a sad excuse for a human being, Jesse.  It is my sincere hope
SQ> that some day, you get the reward you deserve:  Hendrix, Moon, Bonham,
SQ> and Morrison, all with rooms on the same floor as you.  You can "party
SQ> with the divine" to your heart's content. :)

You forgot Joplin.  Don't forget to put Joplin on that floor, too.



... 66.59999999999999787:  Beast divided by 10 on a Pentium.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  GOOD THINGS
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:55:28
EID:9cc7 219036e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 07a5c672
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 7218fba9
On (14 Dec 96) J.J. Hitt wrote to Jesse Jones...

JH> On Dec 11 06:10 96, Jesse Jones of 1:135/71 wrote:

JJ> Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.

JH>  How do you determine wether an act is a "GOOD THING" or not?

JH>  Please, do NOT reply with "you know what I mean"; because I don't
JH>  have the foggiest notion as to what it means to you (other than the
JH>  suspicion that it means something radically different from what it
JH>  does to the rest of the world).

JH>  This is not the first time I have asked you this.
JH>  I would like an answer this time.

Beats hell outta me!  My husband is spending 50 hours a week with
my dying sister because she can't be left alone.  He has to do for
her everything that an RN would do, including wipe her ass for her.
The reason he is doing it is because they can't afford to hire
someone to come in while Chris works, and Chris can't possibly
quit working or they lose everything.  He is nearly 76 years old,
and his back has deteriorated to the point where he is in constant
pain (so, it's obvious he shouldn't be lifting her again and again
all day, but he does it anway, without complaint).

But, he's not doing a "good thing," either.  We KNOW that, because
he's a "heathen."

So, what IS a "good thing?"  Beats the hell outta me!




... ... 6.66 x 10^2   Scientific notation of The Beast.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  "flat earth" town
|Date: 16 Dec 96  07:07:02
EID:86da 219038e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 9dd4c01b
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b4bda97
On (15 Dec 96) Richard Smith wrote to Don Martin...

RS>  

Probably.  When I was 5-6, I had my lanced at least
twice (that many times I remember, what with no
anaesthetic and all), and though somewhat hearing
impaired, I've always been able to function quite
well without mechanical aid.



... A journey of a thousand miles begins with a cash advance.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Robert Burke
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Re: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:37:00
EID:c744 21900ca0
DC>  RB> always been there. Science to me is just our slow unlocking of

DC>  RB> creation. The Supreme scientist.
DC>  
DC> Where did he get his degree from?  Best guess is from an unacredited
DC> 2 year school with a BS in Bullshit.  

You are brilliant! Your insults evidence your vast knowledge.

--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 372/19 200 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Robert Burke
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Sola Scriptura
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:40:00
EID:01b7 21900d00
DC>  RB> I have never seen the 10 commandments plastered anywhere in a p
DC>  RB> building and as far as I know seperation of church and state fo
DC>  RB> it.
DC>  
DC> As it should do to all superstitious bullshit.  

We should also teach our children the pain, horror, and pain of 
atheism.

--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #218
* Origin: *PPBBS Summerville,SC* (1:372/19.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 372/19 200 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Legislating Morality
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:05:34
EID:d8ed 219090a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 ffebff19
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 7216cdd2
On (14 Dec 96) Martin Goldberg wrote to Marilyn Burge...

MB> Not so. Three gay couples are marrying in Hawaii any day now,
MB> thanks to the Hawaiian Supreme Court decision that stated it was
MB> unconstitutional for the State to forbid the marriages.

MG> The last that I had heard was that it was still up in the air.  When
I
MG> saw this, I looked for news reports.  I think that there are some guys
MG> int he US senate that are going to try and do something about it. 
MG> After reading the amendment in question, it seems fairly
MG> straightforward, but in the hands of lawyers and politicians, nothing
MG> is black and white.

MG> Nor should it be.

No, you've got it all bollixed.  Here's the scoop.  The Hawaiian Supreme
Court said that under THEIR constitution, the State had no interest in
who married whom.  At that point, three couples said they would marry
right away.  At least two of them have gotten a license, last I heard.

The U.S. Senate, outraged at the thought that two people who love each
other might actually marry, passed a law that says that OTHER STATES
do not have to recognize gay marriages that take place in states that
do allow them.  

The problem is, the law they passed in unconstitutional, for the reasons
already cited here.



... Fundamentalism is merely stupidity raised to a higher power.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Comrade Fredric
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:38
EID:3dc7 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcb6
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting RICHARD SMITH to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

RS>  };> Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Fredric Rice <:(

RS> JJ> Did you learn this trick of accusing those who disagree with
RS> JJ> you of mental illness during your stay in the former Soviet
RS> JJ> Union?

RS> . . . snippies . . .

RS>  JJ>         For the subtlety impaired, my reference to your stay
RS>  JJ> in the  former Soviet Union had nothing to do with your
RS>  JJ> passport entries, but  instead recalled your vigorous
RS>  JJ> defense of the F.S.U. as the moral  equivalent of the U.S.A.

RS> So you lied just for laughs?  Is this typical Xtian behavior?

Perhaps for the humor impaired I should also have included an 
appropriate emoticon.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Heathens
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:39
EID:485c 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcb8
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAN CEPPA to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

DC>-> On 12-11-96  06:10, Jesse Jones got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> DC> SS>Are you claiming that you don't have that right? 
DC> DC> JJ> Yes.
DC> DC>How's it feel to be a slave?  
DC> 
DC> DC> SS>Who defines you if not yourself?

DC>Your answer to that question follows  --->  

DC> DC> JJ> God.

DC> 
DC> DC>Outside of your imagination, you got evidence that any god 
DC> DC>exists, let alone the one that you think enslaves you?  

DC>Your rather inept retort is next --->

DC> JJ> Outside of your robotic "show me" mantra, do you have anything
DC> JJ> to contribute to this conversation?

DC>You surely don't.  You claim that you are defined by God[sic].  
DC>IOW, without evidence that claimed god exists, you are an 
DC>undefined entity.  

DC>Now, show evidence that your god exists, Jesse.  

Dan, as you should know well by now, I reject the notion that 
evidence is required for God to exist.  Can you prove to me that 
evidence is required for God to exist?  For anyone or anything else to 
exist?

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Stupid is as stupid does -- Forrest Gump

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Sally Springett
|Sub:  Lying Curry Scum
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:39
EID:895d 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcb9
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting SALLY SPRINGETT to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

SS> JJ> Anyway, I hope you will do something more than sputter about
SS> JJ> this, and show in what specifics the article I cited is
SS> JJ> inconsistent with my position that atheists, for the most
SS> JJ> part, do not do good things  (although, to be fair [not that
SS> JJ> anyone here is concerned to be fair],  this citation first
SS> JJ> came up to support the related position that people  of faith
SS> JJ> do more good works than do secular folk).

SS>To be perfectly fair one would have to come to agreement on what
SS>actually constitutes "good works." I do not consider missionary
SS>activity, for instance, to be a "good work." 

I understand that.   The report I cited excluded "missionary 
work" as you define it.

FWIW, the mainline churches have for many decades now restricted 
their overseas activities to meeting human needs, and not to 
recruitment.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Scortched scotch.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:40
EID:b05d 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbb
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

KW>JJ>RV>> RC> I grieve for you. What next? PEPPER?

KW>JJ>RV>> RV> Lay it on with a knife. 

KW>JJ>RV>RC>I never thought I'd say this, but Brother Jesse was right:
KW>JJ>RV>RC>This truly is an evil place.

KW>JJ>RV>Better then a women to spice up your life. Cheaper too.

KW>JJ>        I've often speculated that the denizens of this hellhole
KW>JJ>get  sexually aroused with their rituals of abuse here.  Thanks
KW>JJ>for  confirming it.

KW>  You think that sex must be abusive?  Or that sex is the only
KW>spice that life holds?

KW>You poor thing.

Could you please explain how you get those conclusions from my 
post?

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
I don't know what I like, but I know what art is.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  Scortched scotch.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:40
EID:e595 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbc
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting MARILYN BURGE to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

MB>I've seen you call this a "Hellhole" for several years now.  Yet,
MB>just exactly what are you doing to elevate the atmosphere, save
MB>preach a little sermonette on holidays that you deem to be the
MB>sole possession of believers, and post little one-line zingers
MB>such as the above from time to time?

MB>When was the last time you seriously engaged anybody in a debate
MB>that centered on personal values, principles, or societal good?

I do often in other forums.

MB>All I've seen in far too long from you is criticism with no attempt
MB>being made to make things better.

MB>Why don't you spend less time on criticism, and more time on
MB>simply airing your POSITIVE values and seeking out those of others?

Thanks for the lecture, Marilyn.  Unfortunately, the last time I 
attempted a dialogue with you, on your posting of a humanist statement 
of principles you had copied from somewhere, your response was, in 
effect, yeah, who asked you.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Age is a high price to pay for maturity.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Thanksgiving
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:40
EID:ec22 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbd
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting MARTIN GOLDBERG to JESSE JONES on 12-11-96

MG>SQ>>Just an atheist out here doing good things.
MG> JJ>         Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.

MG>Are you still claiming thta atheists do no good acts?

Never said that Marty.  I have said consistently that for the 
most part, atheists do not do good things.  Do you understand the 
difference?

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
He who cannot harmonize, sings alone.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Sally Springett
|Sub:  Lincoln
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:40
EID:115b 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbe
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting SALLY SPRINGETT to JESSE JONES on 12-12-96

SS> JJ> Okay, Glen, but realize too you will be showing the schools
SS> JJ> that  religious expression in fact has a firm root in this
SS> JJ> nation's traditions.  President Lincoln obviously did not
SS> JJ> think the First Amendment banned God from the marketplace of
SS> JJ> public discourse.

SS>Let us not forget that Mr. Lincoln was seeking election in the
SS>aftermath of the first great American fundamentalist revival period
SS>(the 1840s). One does not go out of one's way to offend people's
SS>beliefs when one is seeking election to public office. Do we know
SS>anything about Lincoln's _private_ beliefs? 

SS>I have somewhere acquired the notion that he was a private agnostic.
SS>I do not state it firmly because I am too lazy to go to the library
SS>to look for evidence. It was from remarks made in a journal or
SS>letter. My memory, never my strong suit, is getting worse.

Lincoln, in my opinion, was a man of astounding insight.  I know 
that he was unchurched and often profoundly critical of organized 
Christianity.  The notion of "private beliefs" is itself amusing.  
"Belief" and "doubt" are not always opposites.

Lincoln has been referred to as the quintessential "American" 
theologian.  He had great insight into the prophetic traditions of the 
Bible, its calls for righteousness among the nations, and the innate 
belief in divine providence that has come to shape the American 
experience.  With these tools he led our nation through its darkest hour

and into its most profound definition of who we are as a people.

Like all humans, he was flawed, and like all great people, he 
struggled with the burdens given to him.  He suffered from depression 
and loneliness.  If he defined himself at some point as an agnostic, 
that would contribute to his sadness.  But I thank God for what he did.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
"Happiness is a mystery, and should never be rationalized." Chesterson

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  Thanksgiving
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:20:41
EID:d53a 21903280
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbf
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting KAREN DAVIS to JESSE JONES on 12-13-96

KD>On (11 Dec 96) Jesse Jones wrote to Steve Quarrella...

KD> JJ>         Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.

KD>I'll give you a long list if you want it.

I do not know you.  If we have engaged in any discussions here I 
do not recall them.  I know that Steve has challenged my statement that

atheists for the most part do not do good works.  Some of the heathens 
here are too slow mentally to understand that is *not* in any way 
inconsistent with the equally true statement, *some* atheists do good 
works.  If you are among those, good for you!  I am reasonably confident

that Stevie Q. is not among those.  If you would like to share the good

works you do, I am happy to hear of them.

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/15/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid doing entirely.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Shelby Sherman
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Scientific Theories.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  16:41:12
EID:518e 21908520
MSGID: 1:123/67 32b57c78
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 863e49a4
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
15 Dec 96 18:19, quoting Laurie Appleton to Shelby Sherman:


SS>> "In order to talk about the nature of the universe and
SS>> to discuss questions such as whether it has a beginning or
SS>> an end, you have to be clear about what a scientific theory
SS>> is.  I shall take the simple-minded view that a theory is
SS>> just a model of the universe, or a set of rules that relate
SS>> quantities in the model to observations that we make."

SS>> "It exists only in our minds and does not have any
SS>> other reality (whatever that might mean). A theory is a good
SS>> theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately
SS>> describe a large class of observations on the basis of a
SS>> model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it
SS>> must make definite predictions about the results of future
SS>> observations."

SS>> "Any physical theory is always provisional, in the
SS>> sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it.
SS>> No matter how many times the result of experiments agree
SS>> with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time
SS>> the result will not contradict the theory.  On the other
SS>> hand, you can disprove a theory by finding a single
SS>> observation that disagrees with the predictions of the
SS>> theory."

SS>> --from _A Brief History of Time_, Stephen W. Hawking, Bantam,
SS>> 1988

SS>> Now, why is evolution NOT a valid scientific theory?

LA>    Simple, it FAILS all of the above criteria, of course!
LA> Even evolutionists themselves sometimes admit this. One
LA> example is;

LA>    "Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described,
LA>  one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations.

Idiot.  One human skull found in the same geological strata would
falsify evolution.

I am sick and tired of reading your ignorant ramblings about a subject
that you know nothing about.


--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:14:00
EID:7895 218f89c0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-

RH> While I give it no credence, it's portrayal of God is of a
RH> being who is not judgmental at all; Hitler went to heaven.

AS> (Open mouth, close mouth, open mouth)

I thought that would get your attention. 

AS> Now I'm going to ask an honest question of all the nonbelievers in
AS> the echo; what would your opinion be of a hypothetical being who gave
AS> Adolf Hitler an eternity of bliss without making any indication that
AS> he realized the enormity of what he had done? (I.E., ask forgiveness.)

About the same as one who would let him off scott free just for saying
"I'm sorry" ....

AS> I know I'm not supposed to judge and all that, but I must admit
AS> there I have trouble following my own religion, at least when it comes
AS> to Hitler. 

Most of us do too, Al.

AS> Because He's such a "nice guy", He'll let ANYONE...no
AS> matter how henious
AS> their crime...live forever in bliss? Perpetuate an existence forever
AS> to a being that slaughtered six million other people, and caused the
AS> death through war of many more? In ecstacy.

According to the book, god made us so we can experience reality for
him. He can only understand it theoretically, since he's not IN it.
So he doesn't really care what we do, in one sense, but in another,
he wants us to do our best. Many lifetimes are required, but eventually
everyone does get there. So, yes, Hitler goes to heaven.

AS> In my beliefs, anyone can earn Heaven, no matter how depraved or

No one can earn (merit) Heaven. It's in the book!


... "Milhouse, we live in the age of cooties!"  - Bart Simpson
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO  (303) 421-7186  V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  AND MORE LIFE.
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:17:00
EID:2f3f 218f8a20
-=> Quoting Ronald Vass to Dave Hamilton <=-

RV> I've mention to others before, it's a dark scarry world out there
RV> when you feel your the only one.

But Ron, you ARE the only one. Not only that, you're going to DIE!

Live with it.


... Psycho-ceramics:  The study of crackpots
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO  (303) 421-7186  V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  CONSTANTS
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:31:00
EID:043b 218f8be0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-

RH> Rather, I would say that life will arise where and when it can,
RH> as a simple result of the way things are. We are here because we 
RH> CAN be, not because we MUST be.

AS> Um. Did you read what I sent Ron, about what Paul Davies said? To
AS> assert that there is no reason why the laws of physics are as they are
AS> is to clain they exist reasonlessly...which we would reject for almost
AS> anything ELSE related to science. The same scientists who would argue

Yes, but we're down to basics here. We can't ascribe reasons to such
levels. Eventually, you have to say "That's just the way it is."

AS> that nature is rationally put together at each step of the chain of
AS> reasoning all the way back to the laws of physics...and then must do
AS> an about-face, and say that when it comes to the laws, rationality can
AS> go no further, and fails. That a rational physical universe is founded

But it does. QM is irrational. True, accurate, precise, but irrational.

AS> on logical absurdity. Free-floating laws of physics that come from
AS> nowhere and have no purpose, or reason, or justification...fall into
AS> the same irrational category as...well...miracles.

Nope. We don't invoke imaginary superfriends when we run out of ideas.

RH> "Constrains" in what sense? We are constrained to live where proper
RH> conditions prevail.

AS> If there are many universes or domains, sure. But if there is only
AS> one...with one set of laws...and we can imagine many others that seem
AS> quite self-consistent...how did these laws get picked?

The laws are as they must be. Your imaginings carry no weight.

AS> Whatever do you mean? BTW, fixed the links on my pages. Check 'em
AS> out again.

Will do. Have you checked out the downloadable files on my page?



... I tried to drown my problems but they can swim.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO  (303) 421-7186  V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  SUPERSTION
|Date: 15 Dec 96  18:33:00
EID:e8a7 218f9420
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-

RH> More likely, he set it up beforehand to impress the disciples.
RH> You see, they weren't in on the plot. That's why they were willing
RH> to die for it; they didn't KNOW.

AS> And who was in on it, then? Who set up the donkey? Nicodemus? Joseph
AS> of Arithemea? He needed SOME henchmen...

Speculating, of course, but Lazarus of Bethany seems likely.

Doesn't really matter as long as the 12 were ignorant of it.




... I hit the CTRL key but I'm still not in control!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO  (303) 421-7186  V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 12 Dec 96  18:56:00
EID:3f90 218c9700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582b
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...

Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

>> I have a legitimate salaried position as Praise and Worship Leader with
>> this church (not mine).

>  SM> LEGITIMATE means that you are selling something of actual VALUE to
>  SM> someone.

>  JS> I do. I sell talent and ability. If you chose to place no value on
>  JS> talent and ability, that is your biz. (don't buy any more records,
>  JS> watch sports, buy _anything_ that sponsors entertainment of any sort).

> Sean, selling one's services as a singer (and/or selling
> self-produced tapes) is not "legitimate" business?

SM> Not when the real product in question is Jimbo's NON-EXISTENT
SM> superfriend. 
SM> Note well that the claim I take exception to isn't that Jim is a
SM> singer, or that he sells tapes of his music. 
SM> The claim I WAS taking exception to, AS DIRECTLY CITED ABOVE, was the
SM> "Praise and Worship Director" in his cult. 
SM> And I was taking the sole exception to the same that is directly
SM> topical to this Echo -- that he is selling, in fine, a product that
SM> doesn't exist -- his God. 
SM> Were Jim to actually sell his ADVERTIZING for this God as the actual
SM> PRODUCT, none of this conversation would have come up. 
SM> But his music -- which is legitimate GOODS and not disputed -- is only
SM> a means to an end. Again, were it the actual product itself, I would
SM> have no real problem with it. 


His music is the actual product.  Much of what is termed
"entertainment" has a message of some sort attached to it - some I
agree with, some I do not.  And other people have their own views as
to what they agree with and what they don't.  Ted Nugent sells
hunting with some of his songs.  I disagree with this, but prefer to
counter with my own form of entertainment that houses an
anti-hunting message.  Gangsta rappers sell violence with their
music; other musicians sell peace through theirs.  Some music is
percieved to sell drug use; others make music, TV shows, and stories
that sell anti-drug ideas.  Jim sells the idea of his god; I sell
strips that ridicule religion in general.  Though our messages may
be completely opposite, and we work with different media, I support
Jim's right to sell his form of entertainment, and defend his right
to freedom of speech to house whatever message he wishes in his
music.  People will buy what they will - I would not buy Ted Nugent
albums, and indeed change the radio station if he comes on.  I'm
quite sure Mr Nugent would not buy my work, except, perhaps, to burn
it or to publically denounce it on WLLZ FM when he acts as "guest
DJ". 

Perhaps legitimate entertainment, to you, is either 1) entertainment
that houses messages that YOU agree with, or 2) entertainment that
is simply mindless and has no "memes" in it at all.  

SM> Of course, the entire industry at that point would be tax-SUBJECT
SM> rather than tax-EXEMPT except for Jimmy's personal income. (Ask Frank
SM> Sinatra!!) 

Ah, the church may not pay taxes, but it pays Jim money that HE has
to pay taxes on.  Therefore, Jim's job is not tax-exempt.  If he is
running his tape-selling operation as an actual business, then he
must pay business taxes on the money he makes from those sales.

SM> The income tax Jimmy pays on that income is a single hydrogen atom
SM> compared with the MINIMUM freebies his cult gets, that we secular
SM> sector folks pay out the ass for. (All I need to know here is that the
SM> cult holds realty of any kind in any way.) 

The money that ANY corporation pays is a drop in the bucket to the
taxes that the individual pays.  The big corporations, in the end,
pay very little compared to the money they make; US companies
operating in Canada effectively pay nothing, thanks to transfer
payments - just like churches.  And I find corporate tax breaks a
lot worse and more insidious than the tax breaks religious
organisations get; at least ANY little crackpot religion, including,
say, Kali cults, Odin cults, or whatever, could get tax exempt
status .. a small businessman running a mom and pop store could
never hope to get the breaks the big corps do.

SM> The point here is that it is Jimmy's non-existent superfriend
SM> that is the actual thing sold. And, no matter how pretty, artistic,
SM> and elaborate, a bill of goods is still a bill of goods -- even if
SM> sung by a competent singer. 

As mentioned above, most "entertainment" includes a message of some
sort, that sells some value or concept or another.  If one stops a
person from singing about his god, then one could stop people from
singing about, say, anarchy or any other concept someone or another
wishes to sing about.

SM> And of the twain, Jim (and all other commentators besides yourself)
SM> knew full well which part I was taking exception to, and argued back
SM> accordingly. 

I'm simply taking a different tack.  It appears to me that you would
limit freedom of speech; is that really what "anarchy" is about?  Do
your own thing, unless I don't like it?

> Just what is, in your reckoning?

SM> Production of actual GOODS, or direct services on said actual GOOD 
SM> in tax- subject and tax-PAYING secular industry.
SM> You know, the way Marty Leipzig and I do it.

And the way I do it; and the way Jim does it.  I'm sure the people
who listen to his music pay taxes, too.  His EMPLOYER may not pay
taxes - but then, neither do most employers, if they're big
multinationals. 

Oh, and by the way - because I deal in the BOOK media, I don't have
to charge or pay Provincial Sales Taxes on my earnings, and am also
exempt from PST on any business-related materials I buy.  As I won't
be making $30,000 a year or more, I also don't need to charge the
federal Goods and Services Tax.  All this is legal, and I myself was
surprised to learn this when I went down to the Ministry of Finance
to apply for a vendor's license/PST form.  They wouldn't even give
me one, saying it wasn't needed due to the nature of my business,
but they did give me a PST exemption form to hand out; under Licence
Number on the  form, I simply have to write "N/A - Published Material".
I'm also operating under my own name, so I'm also exempt from
business registration fees.  Oh, well, I guess it's not
"legitimate", even though the law says otherwise, and all
book-sellers are entitled to these exemptions - whether secular or
not. 

SM> Remember, CHURCHES PAY NO TAXES, unlike me. As in most Jurisdictions
SM> around the world, churches don't even pay for the public services that
SM> some socialist ripoff artists suggested that government provide
SM> everyone. 

And who was it that decided that corporations could get away with
paying little or no taxes?  Letting banks, oil companies, or
whatever operate with huge profits that they never return to the
citizens of the country they operate in is certainly non-conducive
to, well, any good at all.

> And what are YOU doing to contribute to society?

SM> Quite a bit -- sufficient to where I OWE AND PAY TAXES, which
SM> sufficeth for you. I've also never been on welfare or public funded
SM> disability "insurance", despite being well inside the qualifications

Yes, yes, I remember your whining about not being able to get it.
That argument struck me as saying "If I can't get it, then no one
else should, either, no matter how badly they might need it."

>>> Continued to next message...

--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [2/2]
|Date: 12 Dec 96  18:56:01
EID:3f60 218c9700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582c
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...


SM> for it. If I've been covered by insurance I subsequently claimed
SM> against, rest assured that I have more in paid-in premiums than I have
SM> EVER gotten back in return. 

So do most people.  

SM> Perchance is that a claim YOU can make -- never having been on public
SM> welfare or tax-funded disability assistance?? 

Never been on disability.  And while I did spend almost a year on
Social Services, it gave me the platform I needed to no longer
require it.  I feel I have nothing to be ashamed for; I pay the
sales taxes that go into these services, too, and plan to make
enough in the future to more than pay back what I took out through
income taxes.  I have also had several and varied jobs in the past
on which I did pay income tax.

You, however, would have had me shot as soon as I was at the end of
my rope and had no choice but to turn to the safety net my
governemnt and society provided for just such an emergency.  In
return, I had to abide by their rules: to apply for any job or
opportunity that presented, and to apply to a minimum number of
opportunities a month (40-60); to stay in the country (no trips to
next-door Detroit, a mere 3 minute drive away); to report in once a
month with a job search form; to go anywhere that my worker said to
go (though I discovered the woodshop programme on my own); and to
live on a mere $195 a month (and to settle for housing that cost
less than $325 a month, in a place where the average bachelor
apartment is $650/mo).

SM> I believe that the traditional determinant level here under English
SM> common law is three days' average local labor wages in taxes paid. 
In
SM> a typical year, I pay considerably more than that in aggregated tax
SM> payments of various kinds. 
SM> (Local labor averages about US$25 per diem net; the cheapest I've got
SM> off from Mr. TaxMan in recent years has been around US$2500, or about
SM> 100 days net local labor wages.) 
SM> So, to recap: I make my living in the secular, tax-subject
SM> marketplace. My customers, whether regular employers or temporary-help
SM> customers, pay me to assemble/troubleshoot/install/repair actually
SM> extant physical goods. Said customers pay taxes on their assets of all
SM> kinds going in, while held, and going out to me, at which point *I*
SM> pay taxes on the assets as I receive them, when I dispose of them, and
SM> in many cases whilst I hold them as well. 

Jim also sells his product.  I sell mine.  Entertainment is a form
of message-spreading, even if the ulterior other motive is making a
quick buck - most entertainers DO want to make money off what they
do, even if they do love what they do and have something to say
while they entertain.  And entertainment, of all forms, falls under
freedom of speech considerations, which you would seem to deny to a
segment of the population just because you don't like what they have
to say.

A lot of "secular" country music has a religious message to it as
well .. "Deck of Cards" is an old, old, c&w song I remember from
when I was a kid, about a guy who walked into a church, sat down,
and pulled out a deck of cards.  The preacher complained, and the
fellow proceeded to equate each card to a biblical message.  This
was played on "secular" country stations, and more like it.
Similarly, the old hippy song, "Signs" sells anarchism, lawbreaking,
and inconsideration for private property (as when the individual
sits on a fence posted with "No Trespassing" and procedes to yell at
the landowner.) George Harrison's rip-off song, "My Sweet Lord", of
course, sells Krishna, and this song is still played on "secular"
oldies stations, alongside "Spirit in the Sky" (yes, I actually
heard these two songs played one after another on the same
station).  And then there's Venom, who playfully "sell" Satanism in
their own weird way (and of course there are always weenie kids who
take THEM seriously.) Conversely, Iron Maiden's "Run to the Hills"
sells social conscience - it's about the slaughtering of Indians by
whites.  Redgum, the Australian folk band, sells Communist
revolution in, well, everything they sing.  U2 sells every
pro-social message one could think of.  The folks who record and
sell whalesong are selling environmental awareness.  I have two
albums by various artists selling animal rights concepts, and I know
of at least one more, not counting the Greenpeace album.  Kevin
McKenzie sent me a tape of filk music that sells the space
programme and the idea of space exploration and settlement.  I could
go on - this is just music I'm familiar with, and which I basically
have in my own collection.  I get bored with music that has nothing
to say rather quickly, or that simply involves "guy meets girl, gets
hurt" or similar tried love/sex themes, no matter how hard or soft
the music is.

The god Jim sings about may not exist - but then, neither does the
god George Harrison sings about.  Neither do the entities that Venom
sings about.  And neither do the fairies and elves Celtic rock
artists sing about exist.  The Celt artists may not be "selling"
their elves and fairies, but Harrison is certainly selling Krishna.
And I would not wish to curtail whatever George wants to sing
about - even though I find Hinduism as silly as Christianity, Temple
(religious) Taoism, Buddhism, Sub Genius silliness, or any other
religion or quasi-religion that even one person takes half-seriously
- as I want to hear what others have to sing about, and don't want
someone coming along saying this or that music is not "legitimate"
because they don't like what the music is selling.


--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Are you one of Ali Babble's forty dweebs?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Darkness
|Date: 13 Dec 96  17:33:02
EID:d707 218d8c20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582d
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Martin Goldberg cast Darkness at David Worrell ..
and all hell broke loose.

MG>> Nice god you got there, Bobby.
DW> Did you ever see _Pulp Fiction_?
DW> This guy is pathetic.

MG> Most are.

MG> No, I don't do movies these days.  I hate to go and pay $8 per and
MG> then take a loan out for drinks and popcorn only to sit behind Wilt
MG> Chamberlain and in front of a guy excercising his jaw muscles, only
to
MG> be cut off by some asshle in a beemer when leaving the parking lot.

MG> All for a second rate movie.

If I really, really want to see a flick at the theatre, I go to a
matinee, when it's only $4.50.  The snacks are still expensive, but
hey.  And I try to avoid the Wilt Chamberlains by sitting as close
to the front as possible (especially for sci-fi spectaculars).

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... It's 1999:  Do you know where your quantum physicist is?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  "Flat Earth" Town [1/2]
|Date: 14 Dec 96  04:09:03
EID:91ac 218e2120
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582e
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, David Worrell cast "Flat Earth" Town [1/2] at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

SA> anti-government shutdowns and protests.  Harris again says he
SA> doesn't care, even though this is the main manufacturing centre
SA> (mainly automobiles) in the country.

DW> That reminds me. During my (admittedly short) stay in Canada, I didn't
DW> see any "Canadian" automobiles. While I'm sure that many of the cars
I
DW> saw were built in Canada, they were all American or overseas brand
DW> names. 

Yup.  We're probably the only country in the world without its own
auto company.  Even the Australians still keep the name of Holden,
even though it, too, is owned by GM.

DW> *Is* there a Canadian automobile company? Damn near every other
DW> industrialized nation has at least *one* line all its own. Surely you
DW> Canadians could outdesign the Russian Trabant (a group of severely
DW> intoxicated monkeys with no design experience whatsoever could
DW> outdesign the Trabant), the Yugo, the Hyundai, or any of a number of
DW> other cars from marginally industrialized nations. 

We probably could, but there hasn't been a native auto company since
McGlaughlin Motors was bought out by GM in the 1920s or 1930s.  And
GM never bothered to preserve the name of Samuel McGlaughlin in any
of its Oshawa, Ontario plants, makes or models.

He was a distant relative of mine, too, the weasel.  He should never
have sold out.

DW> Do the Canadian equivalent of the "Buy American or buy nothing" people
DW> walk everywhere they go? 

The only game in town (at least THIS town) is the Big 3. The
Japanese and Koreans have set up branches in other cities.  I don't
know why this is; perhaps nobody bothered.  Perhaps by the time the
Auto Pact came about, it was too late - the Big 3 was too
entrenched.  

Given how much engineering talent we have, a good Canadian car,
designed for northern climes, could be manufactured - but it'd take
a huge capital investment and/or full or part ownership by the
government to at least get it started and competing.  I'm not
personally averse to the latter, but the Free Trade Agreement would
probably quash any such effort summarily.

Good point though, and it's something I think I'll be bringing up in
my business class on Tuesday.  I have a feeling that the best I'll
get is whining about how we couldn't "compete" with the US and the
Japanese (which is bullshit; even Greece seems to have native car
companies; at least, when I went there, I saw lots of cars with
names I didn't recognise).  Even a Crown Corporation auto company
would probably do better for the economy, rather than having all the
money we spend on new cars go back to Japan, the US, the UK or
Germany.  Hmm.  Perhaps there's someone in Parliament who could be
approached as to backing towards an auto co. ...

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Galactic Conquest Or Bust. -- Borg bumper sticker
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Doug Lee
|Sub:  "Flat Earth" Town
|Date: 14 Dec 96  04:21:04
EID:5717 218e22a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5582f
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast "Flat Earth" Town at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.

SA> While I have no interest in "dance bars", one of the things I
SA> enjoyed most about being in army cadets was our weekend and holiday
DL> ^^^^^^^^^^^

DL> Umm....just how old *are* you??

DL> Or is this like reminising about "your youth"??

More like reminiscing about a youth that's long, long gone by.  Note
past tense.

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Hail to the Sun god! He is a fun god! Ra! Ra! Ra!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Doug Lee
|Sub:  fundy clown
|Date: 14 Dec 96  04:22:05
EID:0aac 218e22c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55830
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast fundy clown at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.

SA> I haven't seen Marty say this; I missed quite a bit of mail
SA> recently.

DL> You have? Then I suppose you missed all the Mage stuff I sent.

No, I got it, all right.  I meant, basically, that I missed all the
mail that may have flown through here during a two month sabbatical
away from HolySmoke due to lack of HD space.

Hey, I wanted to play Doom and Heretic, and there was simply no room
left for multiple mail packets.

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Maybe God is a kid playing SimUniverse.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Chris Green
|Sub:  your daily brother co
|Date: 14 Dec 96  04:25:06
EID:4daf 218e2320
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55831
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Chris Green cast your daily brother co at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.

SA> I don't particularly follow the sport, either.  I used to like
SA> baseball, before they fucked it up.  Now I'd rather watch rugby, or
SA> even soccer.  I don't quite _understand_ them yet, but I like
SA> watching them.

CG> The difference between them being that Rugby is a game for animals
CG> which is played by gentlement; while soccer is a game for gentlemen
CG> which is played by animals!

Hehehe.  I remember seeing that somewhere, though the word was
"rogues", not "animals".

CG> You might have noticed a lack of padding or body armour; and rugby
CG> casualties have to have something serious like a broken neck, before
CG> they leave the field of battle - extraneous bits of the human body
CG> that get ripped off, eg: ears, are temporarily surgically-taped back
CG> into place, ready for stitching at half-time or full-time.

OUCH!  I didn't realise THAT.  I did see people go down, and be
prodded back up, but I don't recall seeing body bits flying about.


--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... If a dragonrider had a pet wolf, it'd be a weyr-wolf!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:07:07
EID:3f90 219048e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55832
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...

Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> Frankly, I find your tirades against "superfluous" people tiresome
> and insulting at best.

SM> Poor baby. Here, have some cheese to counterbalance all that WHINE.

Go stuff it in a box, Sean.  You're the biggest whiner on the echo.

SM> It's not MY fault that Thomas Malthus was right, and that the sole
SM> reason we've managed to evade his direst predictions so far is that
we
SM> (i.e., the Eurasian races of humans) are so much in love with
SM> virtually continuous long-term warfare that we killed half ourselves
SM> off each and every generation prior to my own -- and then ended up
SM> facing the hard, cold fact of NO extant solution of any kind to the
SM> problems Herr Malthus CORRECTLY warned us about. 

Actually, his theories have been debunked in modern studies.

SM> This is a series of inter-related FACTS, Sue. Hurtful facts that
SM> demolish your socialist bullshit fantasies. Hurtful facts that I
SM> *dare* make SURE that you see and deal with. 

SM> Like the FACT that NO form of socioeconomic system except
SM> laissez-faire, free enterprize, secular-only capitalism will EVER work
SM> on THIS planet. (There are just too fucking many of us who want ALL
of
SM> our income for OURSELVES as INDIVIDUALS. And we are entitled to just
SM> such.) 

Tell that to the North Koreans.  THeir society, under their
Communist system, is better off than you could ever hope to be under
capitalism.  And they're not exactly few in number, with the
population of Canada sqeezed into an area barely the size of Nova
Scotia, and with land that is practically marginal.  They're
self-sufficient, independent, with 0% unemployment, and they don't
pay taxes.  They have a lack of hydro-electic plants, but their
cities are far less polluted than North American ones, European
ones, and other Asian ones.  They don't have street lighting at
night, but no one fears the dark - and a friend of mine who returned
from there recently did not note any guns toted by the populace, or
by police. 


SM> Or the FACT that either two thirds of living human beings -- or ALL
SM> living wolves Planetwide, one -- are superfluous.  Comes with the
SM> territory at the top of the various food chains (where both humans and
SM> wolves are stuck, as no member of Kingdom Animalia makes its primary
SM> living predating directly on either one's healthy adults). 

And I am still not convinced that YOU don't count under
"superfluous".  Social drop-out wrench monkeys who live with their
grandmas like yourself are a dime a dozen.  You would not be missed
at all were you to have your brains blown out by the gun-toting
nutters you idealise.

And I'm not totally convinced that you even HAVE a job, and aren't
sponging off family members at your age.  Becke let on that the
reason she dropped you like a radioactive potato was because you
were a lazy, ignorant fuck who refused to bother to even look for
work, because everything was "beneath you", and you had it too good
at gramma's house to be concerned about walking the walk as well as
talking the talk.

I also found it amusing that you considered it your right to be
polygamous, while she had to be monogamous.  There's your
dictatorial streak showing again.

Is desiring and considering it your right to bed other mens' wives a
common thing for you or are you again simply jealous of what others
have and are inadequate in gaining for yourself?

Oh, and is dumpster diving just a hobby, or are you simply too out
of it to be able to buy (and thus pay sales taxes) on things your
grandma can't or won't buy for you?

SM> Live With It, as you have no choice. The most two-leggeds we can have
SM> living, where wealth redistribution would make ANY significant
SM> difference, is around TWO billion -- no more. At that level, if all
SM> the cash and chattel wealth on the Planet were spent acquiring them
SM> (and assuming that these things WERE to be had for the money),
SM> everyone would have a bare-essentials (but sufficient) diet of food,
a
SM> crude shelter barely sufficient for the associated climate, and two
SM> similar suits of cheap clothes. 


And just which 2 billion would you keep?  Whites who think exactly
like you do?  What would you do with the other four, herd them into
concentration camps and gas them?  Your hatred seems so vast, I've
no idea how you could even FIND 2 billion that you like enough to
keep around. 

Why not also gas the Todds, Sean?  They believe in non-existant
Pagan dieties - and there are singers you could gas, too, that sing
about the same non-existant Pagan dieties.  Gee, Katherine
Wintersnight also holds Pagan diety beliefs.  Hey, there's three
people gone already, on top of Al and Lynda (who ALSO believe in
non-existant dieties - never forget that Lynda is a Christian, too)
as well as the fundies.  And if there were a diety police running
around, I think they should grab you, too, just for having that
silly "Kali wants you" signature file.  Kali, of course, does not
exist, and you are "espousing" this non-existant diety by
advertising it in your posts.  See you in the death camps, bubula.

If you hate people who espouse dieties that don't exist, at least be
fair, and don't stop with gassing Christians.  Gas 'em all, let
their gods sort 'em out.  After all, if the Pagans got power, they
too might demand fucked-up rules.  Better safe than sorry, eh?  Or
at least gag them all, so they can't sing about THEIR dieties to
those who also don't want to listen.  Or write about them, or in any
way make a living off of making entertainment that features
non-Christian dieties.  After all, someone, somewhere, is going to
take the message to heart and start worshipping these dieties.  And
then you can kill them, too, for  being superfluous.

Or you could just take the path that sane people do - live and let
live, and don't buy products that say what you don't wish to hear.

Also note that not everyone who might listen to Christian music
believes what the lyrics say, just as everyone who might listen to
pagan music might not believe, either (I've known people who went to
the local roller rink's Christian music nights to skate because
those nights attracted people who didn't push and shove each other
while they skated, as was common on Saturdays.) To think otherwise
is akin to the fundies who insist that White Wolf Game Studio
"sells" vampire cultism.

SM> There are *SIX* billion people on the Planet, Sue. THREE TIMES as many
SM> as can be fed, clothed, and housed appropriately at the price of the
SM> Planet's total net chattel wealth. 

Hogwash.  Tons of grain are wasted every year in warehouses, simply
to artificially prop up the price.  Fast food joints waste more in a
week than most countries consume in a year.

SM> Were world wealth distributed equally today, we would ALL be starving,
SM> freezing (or burning as applicable for location), homeless (or
SM> essentially so) and near-naked. Or each of us would be faced with the
SM> bitter choice of WHICH biological needs we want to have met, knowing
SM> the others never will be. 

Basic biological needs could easily be met - but the demands of
capitalism decree that people WILL be starving, simply so a select
few can make more money than they'll ever have a use for.

> Now you hint that being in the entertainment
> industry (of whatever sort) is not "legitimate", even though people
> DO want and pay for these products and services.

SM> Kindly immolate your strawmen elsewhere, dear.

SM> I made no such claim of any kind.

SM> I STATED, not hinted, that my exception was being made to the fact
SM> that the bottom-line product in JimBo's case is not his music, neither
SM> his services, but his non-existent God-thingie. 

And as mentioned, most entertainment sells something other than the
concrete tape, film reel, CD, or printed matter.

SM> Were Jim to make enough as a SECULAR something-or-other to make a
SM> house payment in one week's net wages, this entire conversation would
SM> have been dead long before you jumped in with both feet where thinking
SM> folks rightly fear to tread. 

Secular, schmecular.  You'd probably whine the same tune if it were
any other message in the entertainment that you didn't like, secular
or not.  Or at the very least, are duplicitous in your choice of

>>> Continued to next message...

--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [2/2]
|Date: 14 Dec 96  05:20:08
EID:3f60 218e2a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55833
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...

what's "allowable" and what's not.  

Gee, Sean, I hope you never bought anything from the Church of the
Sub-Genius.  They sell an ideology, too, in their entertainment.
And frankly, I don't believe that Bob guy ever existed - his visage
seems too much a marketing logo to be real.


--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Why experiment on animals with so many anarchists out there?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 14 Dec 96  05:20:09
EID:ce84 218e2a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55834
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> Frankly, I find your tirades against "superfluous" people tiresome
> and insulting at best.  Now you hint that being in the entertainment
> industry (of whatever sort) is not "legitimate", even though people
> DO want and pay for these products and services.

SM> Let's try a short paraphrase of this passage to demonstrate why you
SM> are factually wrong here. 
SM> "Now you hint that selling cocaine (of whatever chemistry) is not
SM> 'legitimate', even though there are addicts galore who DO want
SM> and pay for powder cocaine and crack."

SM> Being a "Praise and Worship Director" for a tax-exempt cult to a
SM> non-extant deity construct is NOT the same as being in the
SM> "entertainment business". So kindly immolate your strawmen elsewhere,
SM> please. 

Speaking of strawmen .. 

Cocaine pushing is not legal.  Last time I looked, singing about the
god of one's choice was perfectly legal.  Given how destructive to
the mind both can be, perhaps they should both be illegal - but that
would be violating your cherished tenets of lassaiz-faire
capitalism. 

Also, the last time I looked, the US had laws protecting freedom of
speech.  This protects Christian, pagani, and other religious music as
well as secular, whether you like it or not. 

SM> Frank Sinatra is in the entertainment business, as evidenced by the
SM> fact that he PAYS FULL TAXES on ALL facets of his same business. (I
SM> use Sinatra deliberately here, as USIRS has cleaned Mr. Sinatra out
of
SM> ALL his tangible and liquid assets several times for not paying ENOUGH
SM> taxes; it's public news media record that he OWES them and does, in
SM> fact, pay them. He just needs better accountants occasionally -- it
SM> happens to almost all the high-rollers from time to time.) 

And Jim pays taxes on what HE makes as well.  The church employing
him is not the issue - they are paying him money which becomes
taxable as soon as it's in his hands.

> I'd like to know how you earn a living.

SM> All you need to know at this point is that I work in the lawful,
SM> secular, private-sector economy, hands-on to tangible goods. 

What Jim is doing is lawful as well, and is in the private sector.
His message may not be secular, but then neither is the message
promulgated by pagan bards.

SM> And that I've never been on public welfare or disability assistance.
SM> Anyone who EVER has been on either, for any reason, has no right or
SM> business giving ME any shit at all. 
SM> I am a tax PAYER, not and never a tax BURDEN.

I pay taxes, too, and have been since I was 15.  If I take some back
now and then out of need, what of it?

SM> Regardless of your opinion, this DOES suffice for you.

Sorry, I'll not be browbeaten by a wrench monkey with delusions of
grandeur and a serious ego problem, who thinks he's the only thing
worthy enough on the planet to be alive.

Somehow, I doubt anyone on this echo can say they've NEVER recieved
a public service, from use of free, public roads (maintained and
built by taxes), to government jobs, assistance, pensions,
Unemployment Insurance, etc.  Kill us all, Sean, and you can play
here all alone, smug in your superiority because you get to mooch
off grandma with no worries and no responsibilities.

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... May the bird of paradise DIE up your nose.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  02:33:10
EID:3f90 21901420
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55835
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...

Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> I also find your tirades odd for a supposed "anarchist".  You claim
> to not like authority, yet you wish to go around telling people what
> to do,

SM> No, I don't. That's TWO strawmen you should immolate elsewhere, dear.

SM> In my lifetime of thus far 38 years, I have witnessed the loss of ALL
SM> of the following personal rights, freedoms, and rightly-mine
SM> advantages just so some single bitch somewhere can have as many
SM> children as she wants, by as many men as she wants, without having to
SM> face the consequences personally, and ON MY NICKEL: 

Interesting.  You complain about others eschewing responsibility,
but let's examine your list.

SM> * Right to own an automobile of my own choice of brand and
SM> TECHNOLOGY; 

SM> (I want a large V-8 engine, Kettering points-based ignition,
SM> fully capable of burning leaded gas, no computers....)

They say that big cars are a way to make up for a small penis.  I
can see where this might be true.

Of course, you eschew responsibility here by wanting a gas-guzzler,
so that oil stocks may not be preserved.  You also don't seem to
care about the harm that leaded gas fumes are known to cause - I
guess you just want to ensure that more kids become brain-damaged
from leaded gas fumes so you can send them to the death camps, too,
through no fault of their own.

SM> * Right to a single-family-breadwinner income (paying job)
SM> without enforced massive personal indebtedness;

Blame capitalism for that one.  It is the private sector which
endorses lower wages, no benefits, and gets out of paying their fare
share of taxes that is thrown onto the shoulders of the working
class.  In a planned economy, taxation is unnecessary.  You take
home what you get.  Just ask a North Korean in Pyong-Yang.

SM> * Right to live outside human society, and its crapola rules,
SM> if I so choose (WITHOUT requiring me to be ultrarich to do
SM> so); 

Here you wish to eschew all social responsibility.  Ok, go live
outside of society; but you will lose all rights to dictate to it,
as you seem to wish to do.

Don't want to live by "bullshit" rules.  Hmm.  That sounds like a
small child stomping away from the playground with his marbles
because the other kids won't play by HIS rules.

Of course, I also note this is the exact same attitude of the fundy
"militias" - they also don't want to live in "society's bullshit
rules" and so strive to set up their own armed Christian paradises
apart from it.

You share more in common with the Christians than you like to
admit. 

SM> * Right to unregulated subsistence hunting and fishing
SM> (related to the last item);

Do you even understand WHY there are hunting and fishing
regulations?  Of course, an irresponsible git like you wouldn't give
a shit if you killed the last critter on the planet, just so long as
it fell to YOU.

SM> * Right to NOT patronize the extortion industry (i.e.,
SM> INSURANCE) regardless of my personal choices;

Again, another invention of capitalism.  Mandatory insurance was
demanded by private insurance companies to beef up their own
incomes, and for no other reason.  Insurance was only dreamed up in
the first place because some enterpreneur figured he could make a
quick buck by it.

Hell, insurance companies are paragons of capitalism.  You should be
proud. 

SM> * Right to virgin-land homestead myself a place to live;

Once you homestead yourself there, it's no longer "virgin".  But I'm
sure you don't mind ruining the last of what's left for your own
selfish purposes.

It's interesting to note how you dislike people getting anything at
all from the government, but consider it your right to have the
government issue you land, free-of-charge.

SM> * Right to remain free of debt if I so choose, without social
SM> or political disability;

Anyone who's careful with their money can do that.  I hold no credit
cards, and have no negatively outstanding bank balance.  And again,
under a planned economy, as is practiced in North Korea, no taxes
would be incurred.

SM> * Right to NEVER use or traffick in credit of any kind,
SM> without subsequent imposed disability or restriction of
SM> choices; 

Again, no one says you HAVE to have a credit card.  I don't find my
choices limited by dealing exclusively in cash, debit card, or
direct deposit/withdrawl. 

SM> * Right to possess any job I am qualified for, regardless of
SM> how many "politically correct" applicants of equal or lesser
SM> qualification (i.e., women, minorities, the 'differently
SM> abled', and especially BREEDERS) apply for the same job;

Ever think you might not be totally qualified?  All you seem to do
here is wish to cast blame on others for your own failings.  It's as
bad as Gen Xers who blame the Baby Boomers for their lack of
employment. 

SM> and these are just the losses I've sustained during my ADULT (voting)
SM> life. In addition, let's look at some of the losses of my childhood:


SM> * Right to an education -- that taxpayers in my parents'
SM> generation had long since paid for in full -- in reasonable
SM> schools with reasonable populations and reasonable social
SM> peace; 

Blame the folks who vote against school tax raises, and who don't
want free, non-tuition post-secondary education to be offered.

SM> * Right to visit the selfsame violence upon others that
SM> society supports those others to do unto me (and DID) without
SM> fear of governmental retribution, such as wasn't visited upon
SM> those who beat up on ME (if they can't keep me safe and
SM> un-harrassed, I DO possess the natural right to protect
SM> MYSELF with the required lethal force, without being
SM> questioned); 

Self-defense is still legal, as you mentioned.  US cities are in a
mess precisely because anyone and their dog can get a gun and exact
violence for kicks, and then folks turn around and don't wish to
support a viable police force (as well as calling peace officers
"pigs".) 

SM> and, in fine, the most important right of all:

SM> * The Right to ALL the assets I create for the benefit of me
SM> and mine, without having to cough up MORE THAN HALF of the
SM> same by order of the State to pay for children I had NO part
SM> in creating. The vast majority of the taxes I pay go to no
SM> other matters. 

Again, I hold North Korea as an example.  They have a fairly decent
standard of living, have free education (post-secondary included),
health care, and don't pay a dime in taxes.  Everything they're
paid, they keep.

SM> There is an ancient saying: "Your right to swing your arm ends an inch
SM> from my nose". Well, the breeders' right to make babies ends BEFORE

>>> Continued to next message...

--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [2/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  02:34:11
EID:3f60 21901440
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55836
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...

SM> *I* must needs make ANY sacrifice so THEY can have them. 

Too bad your own parents were "breeders".

SM> If they don't want me carping about their breeding, let them restrict
SM> themselves so that THEIR baby-making doesn't put any restrictions on
SM> MY rightful choices. All of the things I listed above as things I've
SM> lost, are things that are parts of my just and honest BIRTHright.
SM> That's right; I need do nothing to qualify for them; they are mine
SM> inherently, and my rights to ALL these things ARE senior to the
SM> breeders' non-right to breed. 

YOUR rights here, and YOUR rights there.  My, my.  I support your
right to take yourself off the planet and stop being a burden on
it.  After all, your parents were nothing but "breeders", too.  And
your grandparents.  And I bet they enjoyed whatever benefits society
entitled them to through tax payment.

SM> Now that THIS issue has been completely dealt with to absolute
SM> rights, I will commence dealing with subsequent issues. 

There is no such thing as an "absolute right".  Rights are an
illusion, granted through societal agreement and, by definition,
encoded in law.  Laws, however, can be changed - so, too, can
constitutions.  Your so-called "rights" above are not rights at all,
and never were.  All the above is, is your own whining and demanding
"me, me, me, I want a shitty, smelly car, I want to kill things with
no regard for consequences, me, me, me" like a spoiled little brat.


--Wolfie

"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... "Why don't you go bug the kids on Goof Troop?" - Dot Warner
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:20:12
EID:ce84 218f8a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55837
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

SM> Whether or not you like it, the ONLY legitimate government over ANY
of
SM> English-speaking North America is the one which REBELLED and EXPELLED
SM> the evil and wrongful Hanoverian Monarch, the USURPER George III
SM> Hanoverianus, and his bastard "Parliaments" elected by less than 10%
SM> of Britain's adulthood, from rule over us. 
SM> And like it or not, that government is entitled to ALL of
SM> English-speaking North America. The ONLY parts of that Continent with
SM> real claims to independence from the United States Congress are Quebec
SM> and Mexico as it stands today. 
SM> "Live With It."

Rather, you should live with the fact that you are wrong.

Canada as a whole gained complete independence from Britain in 1982,
with the passage of the Canada Act, which patriated the
Constitution.  The office of Governer General is purely symbolic, as
is membership in the Commonwealth; basically all that does us is get
us a place in the Commonwealth Games (a much better international
sports meet than the Olympics, in both sportsmanship and tone.)

> when to have children (or not),

SM> When MY sacrifices for THEIR breeding habits come to an end, then I
SM> will no longer possess the right to bitch that particular beef -- NOT
SM> BEFORE. Unless and until then, I am being ripped off from property,
SM> rights, freedoms, and advantages that are rightly mine. (In the
SM> typically doublespeaking socialist manner, no less.) 

What property?  What rights and freedoms?  Oh, I know - you want to
have a lead gasoline burning car, just because, and you don't want
any nasty children around that may become damaged by the fumes you
leave behind.  I see.

SM> That means that EVERY right I mentioned in the above list, which every

Again, those aren't rights.  They're wants; they're not even needs.
No one needs a lead-gas burning car, or a homestead on virgin land
(though if you want that, go to the Amazon.  Have fun.)

Your list of "rights" simply sounds like the same wistful longing
for some fanciful "golden age" that never existed, along the same
lines of the "garden of eden" myth.

SM> generation of American white men before me enjoyed to the full, is
SM> securely back in my hand. (And you'll note that NO reference is made
SM> to conversion of ANY humans into chattel of any kind, so let's not
SM> have any of THOSE whines either.) 

No, but your comment re: "American White Males" is interesting.  Is
this the only group to be accorded such rights?  Or is it simply
other groups that are getting in your way of getting all the goodies
for yourself?

SM> Until then, I possess the ONLY say here -- as my rightful properties
SM> and freedoms are being taken from me, without my individual consent
as
SM> is justly my right to demand and get. (The "plural I", meaning "me and
SM> everyone resembling me in these ways", is what I used in that sentence
SM> above.) 

And what of others who demand their rights?  How about the right NOT
to breath in lead fumes?  That's a much more real "right" than your
supposed "right" of driving a lead-gas car.

> and what sorts of jobs they can hold in order to be "contributing"
> or "legitimate" members of society,

SM> Those who sell obviously non-existent superfriends to the gullible
SM> aren't contributing to society, whether or not you want to face that
SM> hurtful FACT. A bill of goods (i.e., without corresponding real cargo)
SM> is still worthless, even if it's written up in poetry, scored for full
SM> choir and orchestra, and performed by Jim Staal, the Mor[m]on
SM> Tabernacle Choir and Orchestra, the Boston Pops Symphony, the Rolling
SM> Stones, Isaac Bonewits, and the remaining members of the Grateful Dead
SM> SIMULTANEOUSLY. 

A tape, record, video, or other product of the entertainment
industry is a real bill of goods, no matter what concept that
entertainment is selling.

SM> Nor does this mean that Jim Staal, the Mor[m]on Tabernacle Choir and
SM> Temple Orchestra, the Boston Pops Symphony, Isaac Bonewits, or the
SM> remaining members of the Grateful Dead are non-contributing or
SM> illegitimately making income, unless and until they deal their poesies
SM> the blasphemous insult of abusing them to sell the non-extant
SM> Bible-God to the gullible. At all other times, they earn their living
SM> honestly -- or at least we can afford to assume as much. 

 Again, that smacks a lot of censorship.  Almighty Sean would
keep people from singing about, buying, or listening to religious
music just because he doesn't like it.  Tell me, what else do you
consider inappropriate in entertainment?  What else would you censor
because it offends your tender ears and sensibilities?

--Wolfie

"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 15 Dec 96  17:32:13
EID:ce84 218f8c00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55838
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> never mind trying to say WHO can hold those jobs (ie, the handicapped
need
> not apply).

SM> That's THREE strawmen, Commie Sue.

Whatever you say, Fascist Sean.

SM> I never asserted that the handicapped need not apply for any job that
SM> they want. 

You belie this statement below.

SM> What I *did* assert is that they should only GET those jobs if they
SM> can both obtain and work in them with NO accommodation, except that
SM> which the private employers are willing to voluntarily provide. And
I
SM> made it quite clear that I demanded NO accommodation for myself,
SM> either; I *do*, however, have every right to insist that nothing is
SM> tendered anyone else that isn't tendered me. 

Do you even know WHY laws were passed to force private industry to
accomodate the handicapped?  It's because THEY WOULD NEVER DO IT ON
THEIR OWN.  They don't give a fuck if people are stuck at home,
because they can't navigate their wheelchairs anywhere.  And if
these corporations weren't FORCED to accomodate the handicapped, the
handicapped would NEVER be able to take jobs that are now available
to them, and would be forced to live - guess what - on the public
dole, simply because those jobs were DENIED to them because
companies are too worried about their fat bottom lines to accomodate
people who could turn out to be assets to their businesses.

SM> And I *do* make that insistence. That's called EQUAL Justice Under
SM> Law, a complete stranger to European Monarchical Governments like
SM> Britain's or Canada's. It's also a complete stranger to ANY Socialist
SM> or Leftist government. Equality before the law, without reverse
SM> discriminations, is an exclusively CONSERVATIVE concept, definitely
SM> right-wing indeed. 

Indeed.  It states that we should only worry about this or that
section of the citizenry, and to hell with everyone else.  And hey,
if we kept the handicapped at home, they could be doubly vilified -
vilification seeming to be exactly what the right-wing enjoys the
best.  As evidenced by yourself.

SM> How DARE I suggest that any intact young white male be as entitled to
SM> any job as his raw credentials and qualifications so indicate! The
SM> nerve I must have! 

Who says THEY are denied ANYTHING?  Why do you feel so threatened?
Because YOU have shortcomings that might be ignored were there no
"cripples" or minorities around to show you up?

SM> The "Americans With Disabilities Act" should in actuality be called
SM> "Chapter 37 Of The Compulsory Leftist Political Correctness Act". It
SM> taxes the prosperous and able -- and the handicapped who are keepin'
SM> on like they always had, without accommodation (like Dave Hamilton,
SM> among others, did for years) -- so that only those who are PC enough
SM> in leftist eyes can get what they want. Never mind that some of the
SM> rest of us want it too -- and can't see why anybody gets what is
SM> HONESTLY called SPECIAL RIGHTS over them. 
SM> California did something that it's high time ALL English-speaking
SM> jurisdictions worldwide did: it ended ALL "affirmative action"
SM> operations and requirements within California, even if it meant less
SM> money from Washington. (Or London or Ottawa or Canberra, as
SM> applicable.) 
SM> In case you're not familiar enough with American law to know the
SM> definitions, "affirmative action" means REVERSE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST
SM> WHITE MALES, as the US Supreme Court _correctly_ determined in the now
SM> much celebrated __Bakke__ case. (Today, that's DOCTOR Howard Bakke to
SM> you -- the forces of truth and honesty won one for once!!) 
SM> Now, I'll cut you even MORE of the Holy Slack. If CANADIAN laws don't
SM> have the same effect, or demand the same effect on face, and you can
SM> so evidence, I'll apologize here. But I'm pretty sure that the
SM> corresponding laws have indistinguishably identical effects on both
SM> sides of the border. (For one thing, NAFTA-Shaftya requires it.) 

NAFTA requires no such thing; your ignorance is showing yet again.

As for Canadian (Ontario) law, it is simply illegal for an employer
to ask, on resumes or job applications, what the applicant's age,
gender, religion, race, etc is.  The closest thing it comes to "age"
is asking if one is over 18 and thus legal to work full-time.  An
applicant is free to mask their gender on applications by using only
their first initial.  If you think back to about a year ago, there
was a conversation here about some classified ad that was looking
for Christian truck drivers - as all the Ontarians pointed out, this
ad was ILLEGAL and fully prosecutable under provincial law.

On applications, where it says "Outside interests and hobbies", all
applications specifically state that religious and political
organisations are NOT to be included.  And this holds whether or not
we happen to have anything even remotely resembling "quota laws" in
effect at the time or not (Ontario does not at present.)


> This is not anarchism;

SM> Sure is. The advocacy of the ending of authority over ME (and those
SM> like me), and the ending of the rapacious and confiscatory taxes to
SM> pay for it. Since it's ME who's doing the anarchistic advocacy, this
SM> also is appropriate. 
SM> No contradictions there at all.

While at the same time seeking to restrict the rights and freedoms
of others who don't think as you do.  Uh-huh, no contradiction at
all, Sean.

SM> Anarchism is a RIGHTIST species of opinion. Leftism, especially the
SM> Socialist flavors of the same, is the advocacy of MORE authority and
SM> control over -- and confiscation from -- the individual. Conservatism,
SM> rightism, capitalism, free enterprise, fee-for-service (especially in
SM> medicine) and anarchism all advocate similar things: the absolute

Ah, yes, fee-for-service medicine.  If you have $30,000, you can get
that gall bladder taken care of.  If not, you can either GO INTO
DEBT or die.  Nice choice.

SM> freedom and absolute responsibility of each individual for hirself,
SM> and the complete abolition of ALL collectives, corporations, and other
SM> forms of the falsehood that any GROUP of humans possesses any inherent
SM> rights at all (a function rightly belonging solely to natural
SM> individual persons). 

All it seems to me is harkening back to the Stone Age - he who has
the biggest weapon rules.  Nice thought, I guess, until you run into
the guy with the even bigger weapon - or you yourself fall victim to
the same situation that the others you hate fall into.

SM> I'm a rightist. (As are all other thinking and/or honest people.) Not
SM> a RELIGIOUS rightist -- there we're getting back towards dishonesty
--
SM> but an ATHEISTIC rightist, a conservative who has come to terms with
SM> the fact that taxation, debt, spending, and socialism do NOT work
SM> towards the accomplishment of ANY worthwhile goal.

Religious or secular, both forms of rightism seem much the same -
the mechanics and rationales of vilification of others simply
changes slightly. 

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  02:40:14
EID:3f90 21901500
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55839
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...

Making a good die roll, Sean McCullough cast False Christian Scum at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

> it's fascism of a sort even the Republicans haven't
> stumbled across yet.

SM> Another slice of this fine Gorgonzola, dear?? Or would you prefer the
SM> Gouda? 

Stuff your cheese up your hairy ass.

SM> This is the very traditional WHINE of the leftist when someone dares
SM> apply the general debunking that leftism and socialism so richly
SM> deserve. When in doubt, whine "FASCISM!"

I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

SM> You realize that every Republican on this Echo heard "UNCLE!!" from
SM> your terminal instead. And rightfully so.

Like I care about the Republicans.  And I can imagine that some of
these, too, think you're just as sorry as the folks on #holysmoke
who think you a clown, but haven't bothered wasting their breath
telling you so.  Yet.  And I know of at least one Republican who
thinks you're a lying turd.  And rightfully so.

But of course, you won't see that, since your ego knows no bounds.

SM> Fascism is the ownership of all means of production by the
SM> classes/races/etc. favored by the totalitarian authorities.

Yeah, that sounds like you, all right.  I bet you just DREAM of the
day in which people of your race (white males), nationality
(American), and class (though you have none) rule and dictate
everything to everyone on the planet.

SM> Socialism is the ownership of all significant means of production by
SM> the State. The only significant difference between Socialism and
SM> Fascism is that under Fascism a single class of citizen still exists
SM> which still enjoys the right to own property, while under Socialism
NO
SM> ONE does (at least in theory). 

Control over production by the state is known as state-controlled
capitalism.  This is the system that the USSR had for most of its
history, and is also the system that China suffers under.  At best,
Marx saw it as a mere stepping stone to Communism, and not an
end-point. 

_Communism_ is control of all significant means of production by the
PEOPLE, not the state, and not by a few grasping individuals.
Please learn the difference, and stop looking as ignorant on the
subject as Jim Staal.

SM> Monopoly capitalism -- which is what occurs when free enterprise stays
SM> glutted with excess labor over long periods of time -- is ownership
of
SM> virtually ALL assets by institutional money-lenders. This is the
SM> prevailing economic system in most Western nations today, and precisely
SM> for the reason specified. As much labor as there is out there seeking
SM> work to do, it becomes the cheapest-sold of all commodities despite
the
SM> fact that it is the MOST expensive to produce. 
SM> (Abolish the welfare system without warning, and watch how fast market
SM> forces take the labor market for the wildest of Hell-rides!)

Yep.  Watch how quickly the jobless starve, because private
corporations will still not increase hiring just because.  In fact,
this would start a downward spiral, and the death of capitalism
itself.  Why?  Because the jobless would not have ANY money to
spend, at all, and no more jobs to turn to than before.  Since these
people are not buying anything, sales go down.  Sales go down, less
money for the corporations, so they have to downsize more, throwing
more people into the realm of joblessness, and there is less money
flowing through the system as there are more people without the
money for even basic needs like food and shelter.  And so on and so
forth, until crime increases at an exponential rate by people doing
ANYTHING to survive amidst a dearth of jobs, and eventually rebel
against the system itself.

SM> Hence, a grave imbalance between labor (of all kinds without
SM> exception) and ANY other commodities arises, in favor of the latter.
SM> ONLY those with huge amounts of capital to lend benefit from such a
SM> scheme -- and these end up with ALL the other commodities and wealth
SM> (damn near). 
SM> Free enterprise capitalism -- the only economic system even CAPABLE
of
SM> longterm operation within a libertarian, egalitarian society -- means
SM> that NO single entity owns any major chunk of the means of production,
SM> and nearly EVERYONE owns a little bit in and of hir own individual
SM> right. 

Capitalism is the direct cause of the imbalances of which you speak
- which is why there is such a huge gap between rich and poor in
Western nations.  Capitalism is also the cause of artificial
shortages and is the reason why tons of grain go to waste every year
in first-world warehouses, never eaten.

> I'd like to know what it is that you do for a
> living that so puts you in a high and mighty moral position that you
> can look down upon others for the things they try to do in order to
> survive in today's economy.

SM> It has nothing to do with precisely what I do for a living (which I
SM> don't supply to welfare-queen Commies with a track-record of living
on
SM> the public doles).

Uh-huh.  That definitely screams of "I don't have a job, really, I
sponge off my gramma."

BTW, your bias is showing.  You sound more and more like Jim Staal
every day.

SM> It has SOLELY to do with the fact that I do indeed work for a living,
SM> upon obviously extant tangible GOODS, in the secular private sector
--
SM> and have fully half my hard-earned property CONFISCATED from me before
SM> I even get to see it, to pay for Canada's undeserved sovereign
SM> independence from the United States, your fellow welfare queens'
SM> bastard children, neo-socialist government "services" to protect me
SM> against myself and to supply Jeezo-temples with all kinds of free
SM> goodies, and the huge over-burden of repression I've had to deal with
SM> all my life just for the inestimable "privilege" of living and working
SM> in the DisUnited States of Leftist Political Correctness as a
SM> non-breeding, lifetime unmarried, semi-intact white male.

Gee, maybe YOU'D like some cheese to go with your whine.

Where are YOU paying for OUR soverienty?  And what would you want us
subsumed into the US for?  So you can grab all OUR resources for
YOURSELF?

As for the rest of your whine, that's all it is - a whine.  Expect
no sympathy from those listening to your rants when you someday have
to be faced with a situation in which you need a hand, and can't get
one.  Or when you need an operation and can't pay out of your own
pocket. 

And, you seem to sound a lOT like the liberals you hate; you
certainly sing the same tune they're supposed to: "I'm a mess, and
it's everyone's fault but mine."

SM> All the while, the Jeezo-temples, with their musically-chanted blank

What about the pagani temples, Sean? 

SM> bills of goods (remember, their God and their Jesus clearly STILL don't
SM> exist), get ever fatter on their complete exemption from taxation while

So what?  The tapes exist.  Concepts don't exist, either, but
concepts are presented all the time in entertainment.

SM> the sectors of the economy from which *I* hail -- the ONLY ones with
a
SM> real right to exist -- pay, and pay, and pay, and pay. And then *I*
SM> pay, and pay, and pay, and pay. Just like Marty Leipzig does.

I don't see Leipzig whining about it, though.  You seem to be the
only one with a problem here, resenting any form of social
responsibility.

SM> And because I *do* pay (and VOTE), I have the right to complain. And


>>> Continued to next message...

--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  False Christian Scum [2/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  02:37:15
EID:3f60 219014a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5583a
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...

I vote too.  So what?

SM> because my customers, being private secular entities, also PAY, both
SM> they and I have the right to criticize the Jeezo-temples and ALL their
SM> related activities as the ripoffs they in fact are. (Unless, of course,
SM> you can come up with some EV-I-DENCE that said Jeezo-temples'
SM> fundamental bottom-line product, their God, really does exist.)

Again, the issue here was not the church Jim works for.  They don't
sell his tapes, and are paying him taxable monies to play for it
during services.

And why only rant against Christian churches?  I'm sure Hindu
temples, also tax-exempt, also pay people to play music for them,
and said musicians might also sell their own tapes on the side.

SM> Wanna shut me up really quick??

SM> Just eliminate the confiscation. Allow me EVERYTHING I create, all
SM> that wealth that I make but so little of it I see, to remain in my
SM> hands. Allow me to conduct my life as *I* see fit, not some insurance
SM> company who holds the national mortgages. Let my hard-earned wealth,
SM> small as it may be, go to MY children, not someone else's. Indeed,
SM> *THE* main reason, above and beyond all others, that I am childless
SM> and likely to remain so, is that I can't afford to have children on
SM> 35% of my gross income (or LESS). I need almost ALL of that gross
SM> income in my POCKET to do a family justice -- and all previous
SM> generations of Americans HAD that when they had kids to rase, but NOT
SM> mine. 
SM> And working harder or longer makes matters only worse; the more gross
SM> income one has, the LESS of it one gets to keep for oneself. 
SM> I can't do any kids of MINE their rightful and just due, while I'm
SM> left without choice about paying for everyone ELSE'S. And the social
SM> welfare system is where most of my tax payments end up going,
SM> especially when you consider the fact that FICA (the Social Security
SM> tax cluster) is nothing more than another out-and-out confiscation for
SM> workers my age and younger. (The last year ANY hope existed of the US
SM> Federal Government paying off the principal of the national debts was
SM> 1963.) 

You want to keep everything you make?  Go Communist.  In a planned,
truly Communist system, the people have say on everything that is
produced, and every rule that society must live by.  The people have
the say in how wealth is distributed (which is why there is no
taxation in North Korea; the people of that country determine where
the money is needed, ensure that everyone gets paid a minimum amount
for what they do, and allocate the funds appropriately.  It also
ensures that everyone HAS something to do, unless they are
completely incapable of doing something, in which case, yes, they
are protected - don't forget, people do fall victim to accidents
which may render them incapable of doing what they did before; if
they can be retrained for another job, they are.  If not, they're
not simply left to die.)

Representation is chosen directly from neighbourhoods, factories and
other places of work, schools, etc; the idea is the elimination of
the concept of the political party, period.  There is no need for a
party, and in fact, parties are known to grossly go against the
wishes of the people.  This is what the party I am allied with works
for, NOT centralised production by either the state or a few
individuals. 

Of course, rather than working SELFISHLY, the people are expected to
work towards solutions that would benefit ALL of society - which
would, indeed, include accomodation for the handicapped, free
post-secondary schooling, free medical care, etc - all things that
the right would deny because nobody's making an insane amount of
money from it - especially themselves.

But then, you seem totally incapable of even wanting to work with
others; you just want to grab what you can for yourself, without
regard to social consequence.  You're basically at the same level of
social development as a caveman, resentful of ANYTHING that benefits
anyone but your own little self.

Oh, BYW - Becke doesn't appreciate the blatant lies you've been
spouting about her.  Several of us have heard becke's side of the
story; consider yourself branded a liar.  You'll be hearing from her
quite soon, BTW.  And her husband, a Republican, thinks you're a
total blot, as much as, or more so, than any of the "liberals"
here. 

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  True story.
|Date: 15 Dec 96  18:17:16
EID:3722 218f9220
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5583b
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Marty Leipzig cast True story. at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.

SA> Making a good die roll, Marty Leipzig cast True story. at Sue
SA> Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

SA> Fortunately, no one's said anything while I've been hawking my tome
SA> at the city market, though I have noticed a few people wrinkle their
SA> nose at the title.

ML> I would like to procure a copy. Instructions, please?

SA> Sure.  Send $8 US (cheque or money order) to:

ML> Do you accept rubles?

Sure!  I'll accept Isle of Yap coinage, too, but I don't think my
mail carrier would like that much.

If anything, the possession of weird kinds of currency would simply
be something interesting to have, whether or not I could cash it.

But, oh my, that's not very businesslike of me is it?  Oh, well, who
cares?  I find some of what I'm learning in business class rather
repulsive, anyway.

Y'know, my classmates thought I was weird when I told them about the
check a fellow HolySmoker sent - it was way too much for the one
copy requested, and I explained I couldn't ethically keep the
excess.  I've mailed two copies, and remitted a cheque for the
excess beyond that cost .. they were rather mystified as to why I
did it, or agonised over several choices I had (the one I went with,
or sending the cheque back, or sending one copy and remitting the
extra $12.)  They just couldn't grok my dilemma.

I also note that there is no unit under the heading of "business
ethics" on the class schedule.  If business people aren't expected
to have ethics, well, I'd rather not consider myself a business
person.

SA> I'll send it out next-day, but give a couple of weeks allowance for
SA> the post office and all.

ML> Thanks, will do.

OK, I'll keep an eyeball out for it.

ML> I'd invite him the legendary place of eternal damnation at
ML> that point.
SA>
SA> I think instructing him to go to the library was probably
SA> blasphemous enough to him.

ML> "You jerk! You kneebiter! GO TO......THE LIBRARY!"

SA> "Oh, noooo!  Not THAT!"

ML> "And then...we'll actually make you read!"

"Aiiiigh!" :)

ML> Unfortunately, they are too ignorant to understand even visual
ML> cues.

SA> Illiteracy comes in many forms, I suppose.

ML> Amazing that they can respire unaided.

Big assumption.

SA> Perhaps the image of a great huge monster ripping into a
SA> bible-thumper would be more to the point?

ML> Now there's a thought.  The Queen Alien and a fundie standing in
ML> for Bishop, the bisected android...

Hmm.  Though you might need something a little more blatant than
that .. 

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... "He pities the plumage but forgets the dying bird." -- Paine
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  sadism in the name of
|Date: 15 Dec 96  18:28:17
EID:c46c 218f9380
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5583c
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Marty Leipzig cast sadism in the name of at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

ML> ... Anyone who can't cope with math is not fully human.

SA> Well, I never liked being associated with the species, anyway.

ML> Going fundy on us now? Arguing with taglines? ...

Nah.  Just a little self-conscious over my lack of mathematical
ability.  I've got to find someone one of these days with the time
and patience to sit down and teach me the mysteries of higher math.

I had a lesson in calculus recently that went fairly well, but I
still need to know more.  Not because I have to use it, but just
because I'd prefer to know how, rather than continuing NOT to know.

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Ever wonder how deep the ocean would be if sponges didn't live in it?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  Spam me big boy!
|Date: 15 Dec 96  18:33:18
EID:3a3e 218f9420
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5583d
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Ronald Vass cast Spam me big boy! at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.

> SA>Well, there's always the Inuit belief that one's totem animal
> SA>consumes your soul around puberty .. it's about the only explanation
> SA>I can come up with.  :)

> RV> Ok Fang. Now you had your fun, get to work and get those JW off the
> RV> porch. 

SA>I prefer Mormons ...  more of a challenge to rip through that magic
SA>underwear.

RV> So.......that magic underwear does work a bit...then ?

Not really.  It's just that the threads unravel and get caught in
fangs and claws.

SA>--Wolfie

RV> Fang

Silver?

SA>"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting
SA>practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to
SA>protect cockroaches."

RV> Agree.

(Note - I don't think this way.  The character below does, and he's
not human, anyway.  And it's a paraphrase of something Marty said
that I thought would be humourous to attribute to the fictional
werewolf I designed for a play by e-mail game that I've been waiting
for 2 months to start. Grump.)

SA>--BlackAdder
SA>lupus Red Talon Ragabash
SA>Fostern, New Hope Sept, England

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... And Brave Sir Robin ran away ...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Joe Shedlock
|Sub:  Canadian Politics
|Date: 15 Dec 96  18:36:19
EID:7259 218f9480
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5583e
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Canadian Politics at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.

SA> As for schools, I had quite a few wishy-washy biology teachers in my
SA> time, and, like US textbooks, only perhaps one page is turned over
SA> to explaining Natural Selection.  I understand from friends, though,
SA> that science education in the Catholic school system is much less
SA> wishy-washy and more detailed - but then, the separate school board
SA> doesn't have to worry about having fundy kids in attendance to
SA> insult, as the public board does.  (The two boards are separate but
SA> equal; both get funding via property taxes and other governmental
SA> sources.  A homeowner simply chooses which board he wants his
SA> property taxes to benefit).  Seeing as how the Catholic church has
SA> long since reconciled itself with modern science, I can see this is
SA> probably not just prideful boasting on the part of my
SA> Catholic-school-educated friends.

JS> Very interesting.  Part of the problem in the US is the textbook
JS> publishing market.  Publishers cannot afford to publish 50 different
JS> biology textbooks for 50 different states.  Texas is a big state.
JS> Some fundies have an organization that protests before the Texas
JS> school book commission (or whatever it's called).  So, in order to
JS> sell a textbook to the Texas market, the textbooks used throughout
JS> the whole country get watered down or censored.

I thought that California was also used as a textbook litmus test,
and so textbooks sort of walked a medium between the wants of the
two states. 

I'm not at all sure why the same effect happens here, except that
textbook publishers here steal their formats from US science texts.

JS> I don't know that much about science education in Catholic schools in
JS> the US.  Having been brought up Catholic, I was never conscious of
JS> the kind of hostility to science--in the second half of the 20th
JS> century--that is present among the fundamentalists today. I would
JS> think that science education might be hampered in the Catholic schools
JS> of the US by poor funding, especially for science labs, equipment, and
JS> the like.

Hmm. Perhaps - Catholic schools are private there, aren't they?

SA> (mainly automobiles) in the country.  Mulroney didn't care who he
SA> was hurting, either, and wouldn't listen to critics.  The sad thing
SA> is, people still vote for these fucks, because they appeal to the
SA> nastier side of the middle-class and the rich, who seem to buy into
SA> their line of "If we let the poor starve to death and die on the
SA> streets through lack of universal health care, YOU'LL have more
SA> money to spend on beemers."

JS> Sounds pretty much like the Reagan-era politics of the US, which are
JS> by no means totally past, but which Clinton has put something of a
JS> damper on.

Oh, yes, the PC party is totally in love with Reagan-era ideals and
ideologies.  That's their problem.  Of course, they USED to be a
much better party, that actually instituted some pro-social measures
in times past.

Mel Hurtig was a former PC party rep, but he left them and
scathingly criticised their new views in a book of his own.

JS> Your discussion is interesting, because I don't follow Canadian
JS> politics. Canada the 51st state?  I had never heard of that here.  We
JS> keep hearing about Puerto Rico possibly becoming the 51st state.

It's just something from our history - the US has tried to invade in
the past, and take over .. the most blatant attempt was just at the
beginning of the War of 1812, when some US soldiers landed in
old Sandwich (now a part of west Windsor), and put up a proclomation
declaring Canada to now be a US territory, and people had better
meekly accept it.  Anyone contriving, especially with Indians, to
rebel against this would be shot.  We kicked them out rather
quickly and then tricked 'em out of Fort Detroit - with the help of
Tecumseh, the Indian leader.  :) Contrary to what the re-enactions
the historical society puts on every year, not one shot was fired in
the taking.  All they did was have a band of Indians wander around
in circles, continually passing the fort.  The defenders thought
they were up against a huge army that was gathering, and so
surrendered when the British commander showed up.  Downright silly
ruse, but they bought it.

Our military also has suspected for quite a long time now that the
US has or had plans to invade if the opportunity ever arose; some
hint of this came to light just a few years ago, when CSIS claimed
to find evidence of invasion plans that involved coming over from
New York State.  There was also concerns of amalgamation during the
time when Quebec was voting on whether or not to become
independent. 

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Face reality; yet, indulge yourself in fantasy and fairy tales.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Joe Shedlock
|Sub:  Canadian Politics 2
|Date: 15 Dec 96  18:47:20
EID:6022 218f95e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b5583f
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Canadian Politics 2 at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.

SA> His Minister of Education is simply unspeakable.  Worse, the guy's a
SA> HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT (the minister, that is.) What the FUCK is a
SA> DROP OUT doing running the educational system?!

SA> Never, EVER allow a fucking GOLF PRO to run for office.

JS> How about an amateur golfer, like Dan Quayle? 

Them, either. :P

SA>  Our only
SA> hope is that a Vote of Non-Confidence will somehow arise before the
SA> rest of his term is up, so we can vote his smelly ass out of Queen's
SA> Park before he does even more damage.  Or else that Denis Lortie
SA> will somehow gravitate to Ontario, and do a repeat of his attack on
SA> the Quebec National Assembly (though this time, let's hope he has a
SA> better watch.)

JS> Sorry, who is Denis Lortie and what was his attack on the Quebec
JS> Assembly? I'm afraid I'm totally ignorant on these subjects.

Oh.  He didn't like the seperatist Parti Quebecois, so he
decided to rid the province of them.  So he went in, with some
sort of firearm, at a time when they were scheduled to be meeting in
caucus and all together, a nice bunch of sitting ducks.

Unfortunately, he was too early, and shot up the (non-seperatist)
Liberal Party instead.

He's out of prison now, I hear ...

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... Humans aren't the only species on Earth. We just act like it.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sue Armstrong
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Look Who is Insulted?
|Date: 15 Dec 96  18:59:21
EID:d49e 218f9760
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b55840
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Laurie Appleton cast Look Who is Insulted? at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.

LA> Ah, a devotee of the "moral high-ground" eh? Why is it that
LA> evolutionists are often Communists, atheists, effectively
LA> athesits etc. etc. when such people are usually associated
LA> with Anti-American activities, subversion, and every form of
LA> depravity? Perhaps you too are a paid-up card-carrying
LA> member of the ACLU, just like Karl claims to be?

SA> If you're so pro-American .. why do you live in Australia?

LA> There are a number of reasons. Firstly I live here and
LA> speak the language. Secondly, we probably have LESS racial

Not that hard.  They do speak English.

LA> problems here - our Aborigines don't try to burn down our
LA> major cities everytime one of then gets pulled up for
LA> speeding or drink driving! :-)

They're too weak from poverty and hunger, for the most part, to
bother.  They also, from what I noticed, tend to live in their own
territories rather than in the cities.

LA> Mind you, I tend to like the American idea of allowing
LA> their citizens to carry guns to defend themselves against
LA> criminals. In Australia they are about to give all the
LA> Crooks and criminals a field day by disarming all the
LA> honest citizens.

And yet Victoria, which has the laxest gun laws, has the highest
gun-death rate in the country.

LA> Within 12 months the only ones to have guns will be the
LA> crooks and criminal and the rest of us will be defenceless!
LA> That might also make us more interesting to any potential
LA> aggressor as well, knowing that the population is
LA> defenceless!

I don't buy that attitude.  The gun laws where I live are much laxer
than Australian laws, and our gun-crime rates are lower, despite a
larger population.

LA> So why do YOU live in America anyway? Look how often you
LA> get devastating Tornadoes and things like that.

I don't live in the US.  And we've had a tornado where I live ONCE,
and it wasn't all that devastating.  It wrecked about a dozen houses
in the rich peoples' part of town, but that was about it.  THe area
is also quite tectonically stable, so we don't get sudden
earthquakes like the one that trashed Newcastle, NSW, about 4 or 5
years ago.  We do have one street that floods sometimes, though,
making it a bit hard to drive (because the city engineers placed the
silly thing on a creek bed.) I hate it when water comes halfway up
the hubcaps.  Sometimes peoples' basements get a little damp and
musty smelling for a day or two as well.

The only real drawback is we get a few inches of snow here and there
for two or three months out of the year.  The snow bit you can feel
free to razz me on - I don't like it, either, but it can be handy to
shove down friends' sweaters for fun.  The ice keeps our local salt
mines in business, though, so I really shouldn't complain about it.

(Yes, folks, this is Canada, it's December, and we have no snow or
ice.  We've been enjoying rather mild weather of late, actually.
It's barely around 45F, and certainly no lower.  We'll probably be
paying for it in January and February, though, the only months we
get any serious snow at all (ie, snow that lasts more than one day
and then melts in a puddly mess.) Hmph.  I just bought a new
trenchcoat, too, and wanted to try it out at our usual wintertime
temp of -5C - 0C/32F.  Our Christmases are usually about as white as
Sydney's, and it's damn hard to make a rainman in the park.)

LA> Mind you it was delightful to learn that your
LA> evolutionists aren't worth a bent-cent when it comes to
LA> debating Creation Scientists, even if your left-wing
LA> anti-Amertican ACLU and it entourage of "smart" lawyers
LA> have been able to have "balanced treatment" laws declared
LA> unconstitutional!  :-)

LA> Keep your head down!

I have no ACLU.

--Wolfie


"Humans.  Two-legged rats.  Can't even use 'em for hunting 
practice.  Passing laws to protect them is like passing laws to 
protect cockroaches."

--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England


... When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Roger Hunter
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  ALIGNMENT LIST
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:06:00
EID:ff91 219048c0
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to All <=-

KW> Katherine
KW> Wintersnight     El Paso, TX, USA     Wiccan                1 1/2
KW> years 

Roger Hunter       Boulder, CO          Atheist/Agnostic         1 ?


... I tried to drown my problems but they can swim.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO  (303) 421-7186  V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Brett Johnson
|Sub:  "Sin" mythology: The first evil ideo
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:15:18
EID:c295 219049e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 6ead40f8
REPLY: 1:221/203 08fe0b3e
On (15 Dec 96) Brett Johnson got back to Fredric Rice...

FR> humanity has yet come up with.  It negates the worth of humanity and
has
FR> granted Christianity the excuse of slaughtering MILLIONS of innocent
people

BJ> I'll ignore the "slaughering millions" remark, since it's unqualified,
BJ> and inflamatory.

You are asking for a posting of the very facts that you call 
"inflamatory".  Take the time to read it.  It will make you 
sick, at best, with it's tale of blood for Jesus.  

BJ> Most suffering, comes from our own negative choices, or those of
BJ> others.  We can label this; we Christians call it "sin".

Read of the people slaughtered for your religion.  That is 
the true sin.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Brett Johnson
|Sub:  2 Corinthians 9:13
|Date: 16 Dec 96  10:07:42
EID:e56b 219050e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 287e29ee
REPLY: 1:221/203 08fe0b3d
On (15 Dec 96) Brett Johnson got back to Marty Leipzig...

ML>  CG> Any Christian has to be wary of claiming miraculous cures, savings,
ML>     So rare, in fact, as to not exist.

BJ> You know this to be a fact, I'm guessing?

BJ> Do you know anything about Lourdes, France?

Did you know that "miracles" stopped happening there when 
the recording technology got too good? 

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Alignment list
|Date: 16 Dec 96  10:13:34
EID:2208 219051a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 dc81e13d
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5eed206d
On (14 Dec 96) Katherine Wintersnight got back to All...

KW> -------------
KW> Name             Location            Alignment             In the
KW> 'Smoke
Dan Ceppa       NW of Nowhere, WA    Slighty askew,       Since birth
just because it
annoys fundys                                          

KW> Lynda Bustilloz  Southern Maryland   chaotic unique        1 1/2 years



KW> Mike Hardy       Mobile, Alabama     former evangelical    2 years
KW>                                      Christian turned
KW>                                      Open-minded agnostic.



KW> Katherine
KW> Wintersnight     El Paso, TX, USA     Wiccan                1 1/2
KW> years




KW> ---
KW>  * OLXWin 1.00a * Chef: (n.) Any cook that swears in French


KW> --- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
KW>  * Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes
KW> (1:381/123)



--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 16 Dec 96  10:18:39
EID:5060 21905240
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 9256b6ec
REPLY: 1:229/622 32b1fe58
On (14 Dec 96) Dave Hamilton got back to Marilyn Burge...

DH> That's nothing. In Christianity, you can erase ANY NUMBER of
DH> horrible atrocities with one simple repentence. It's sort of
DH> like a wild card.

More like a Joker so that you can win with a rather poor 
set of morals vs the one that holds all of them.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  10:27:35
EID:e78c 21905360
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 f3a55aff
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A544392
On (15 Dec 96) Michael Hardy got back to Al Schroeder...

MH>  been contemplating from my new perspective. Perhaps you can answer

Hi, Michael.  Long time, no read!  

MH>  It seems to me that Dennett and Dawkins may be right -- God is no
MH>  longer needed as an explanation for natural phenomena. Knowing that

The big question is whether you are trolling or truly questioning.  

MH> "God's"  activity in the OT was simply a theological interpretation
of
MH> events, of NATURAL events, that motivation evaporates.

I'd leave one of my taglines, but I'm still trying to configure 
my Point.  At least Lee likes it!  

Seriously, nice to see you back again.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Flat-Earthers!
|Date: 16 Dec 96  17:59:07
EID:f6a7 21908f60
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 7ed68650
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 863e4709
On (15 Dec 96) Laurie Appleton got back to Dan Ceppa...

LA> Hi Dan,

Hello, Liar.  

LA>   Since Martin has slinked off with his "tail between his
LA> legs" and announced that he has "twitted me" then that sort

Bullshit, Appleton.  You continue to lie like a cheap throw rug 
that the cat's shit on.  

LA> of leaves you "all washed up" doesn't it?  :-)

There are enough people pointing out you lies, Lardhead.  

LA> you and that might be because you did not suffer so long in
LA> an institution for INDOCTRINATION as Martin did!  His

You, OTOH, belong in an institution in a padded cell.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  ken wiens kill homos!
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:22:51
EID:bf79 219092c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 1e3b3eba
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A4FAEC2
On (10 Dec 96) Judith Bandsma got back to Curtis Johnson...


JB> Have you seen the WWN lately? Headline...4 Horsemen of Apocalypse
JB> Spotted in California Desert.

JB> With a picture. But I recognize the picture. It's from one of the S&S
JB> movies. Red Sonya, Beastmaster or one of the Conan flicks (can't

I knew it looked familiar!  It's from the Red Sonya, I think.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Velikovsky.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:51:40
EID:5bde 21909660
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 204e9207
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 863e4c88
On (15 Dec 96) Laurie Appleton got back to John Musselwhite...

JM>    Velikovsky was a crank, Appleton. I found him to be a

LA>    Fancy you being so totally out of step then with your
LA> hero Isaac Asimov (dead at present!) Just look at the total

Do you even bother to read what you u/l?   You're an idiot.  

LA>   "Of all the exoheretics, Velikovsky has come closest to

[..]

LA> exoheretic. What's more, he has the faculty of sounding as
LA> though he knows what he is talking about when he invades the

Try reading that again, Lardhead.  Read it until it sinks into 
that dense cranium of yours and registers a hit on the single 
neuron you possess.  

Asimov was calling Velikovsky a well-polished charlatan 
predending to be a scientist.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  WHY?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  19:03:26
EID:ad05 21909860
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 e3c44144
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A54439B
On (15 Dec 96) Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa...

LA>     Thank you for what I assume is sympathy for all the
LA> unjustified personal attacks and abuse that I have to put up

DC> Most likey, once again you are wrong, Lardhead.

MH>  I have sympathy for all the unjustified personal attacks and abuse
he
MH>  puts up with. Of course, the unjustifed ones account for maybe five
MH>  percent of his criticism. :-)

Actually, none of the so-called "unjustified personal attacks 
on Laurie are unjustified.  They are far better than attempting 
to get him to recant his lies, mis-quotes and out-of-context 
quotes that he's done.  

There is no way to take him even remotely serious.  All that can 
been done with him is to continue to point out his idiocies to 
others so that they don't fall for the same bullshit that 
he wallows in.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Wolff can't hack it
|Date: 16 Dec 96  19:09:31
EID:b287 21909920
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 270ba95a
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ae8fa373
On (14 Dec 96) Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa...

dc> Even lawyers have *some* standards.
FR> Do you have _any_ evidence for that

dc> standards, but has just recently demonstrated that!

dc> the very long trial, he spent a bunch of his money (and I
dc> mean a bunch) gathering evidence and witnesses that showed

FR> What was his motivation?  A charitable heart?

No, his view that the law means what it says when it 
says that everyone is entitled to council and a fair trial.  

He obviously was not in it for the buck, as he didn't get 
more than a basic fee via the court.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Don Martin
|Sub:  Euthanasia
|Date: 16 Dec 96  19:27:59
EID:19cb 21909b60
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 514c2f4d
REPLY: 1:261/1137.0 32b3ddc9
On (15 Dec 96) Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa...

DM> Americas. Prescott, _The Conquest of Mexico and Peru_ is a basic

DM>     I should recommend something else for a 10-year-old. Prescott is
DM> a 19th century scholar whose book on the Conquest is practically the

That's ok.  Besides, I used the info to help him locate a 
couple of other books on the subject.  Now to see if he 
went to the library to pick them up.  We reserved them 
over the modem at the local library.  Hopefuly, one or 
all will interest him and be at a comfortable reading level.

DM> Andrew Masten to the contrary notwithstanding--that Washington State
DM> _does_ have libraries . . . .

Yep, it sure does, and it was fun for my son to search for 
various authors and subjects for his research.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  feed
|Date: 16 Dec 96  19:39:38
EID:e197 21909ce0
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 9cde3596
REPLY: 1:229/622 32b3dce0
On (15 Dec 96) Dave Hamilton got back to Dan Ceppa...

DH>         bbs.sbase.com (206.248.38.226)

DH> It's a free BBS, carries HS from a direct satellite
DH> feed. Has Bluewave to download/upload the packets.

Thanks for the info.  Looks like I'm being pushed more and 
more into getting an internet account.  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  heartless
|Date: 16 Dec 96  19:43:56
EID:11cd 21909d60
MSGID: 1:105/40.667 b9958aad
REPLY: 1:261/1137 90068abd
On (16 Dec 96) Curtis Johnson got back to Dan Ceppa...

CJ>         Apparently it was Hussein's son instead of Hussein himself.
CJ>  My apologies to all for getting it wrong.


Well, maybe they'll target better the next time!  

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Concrete Sidewalk of Reality (1:105/40.667)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ed Mills
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  COINCIDENCE FIVE
|Date: 15 Dec 96  22:21:44
EID:5c78 218fb2a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 b5f31ecc
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ad92f90a
Staccato Vocalizations issued thus from Fredric Rice to Ed Mills on 12 Dec
96:

FR> Ed!  Man, I thought they gave you ten to fifteen!  What are you doing
FR> out? }:-}   (Sorry;  Duran Duran did it.  Honest.)

Actually, they let me have a computer here in the hole. That's
not why I was incognito for awhile. Our hub lost major mail
feed for nigh onto a week, awhile back. If I didn't have a full
batch of pruno already made up, I might have jumped off the top
tier.

em> Whatever became of this bright fellow? Haven't seen
em> any posts from him in many moons.

FR> I think he finally found some of those "militant homosexuals" he was
FR> constantly all aquiver over and doesn't have any more time for us guys
FR> and gals on HolySmoke.

Oh damn. I wanted to show him a new safe-sex trick I learned
here in the D-block. All you need is an empty toilet-paper core
and some fresh, warm liver.

edweird@oregon.penitentiary.com


... Dogs crawl under gates.  Software crawls under Windows.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: Saint Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/40.762)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ed Mills
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Goodbye
|Date: 15 Dec 96  23:01:27
EID:3f67 218fb820
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 98700569
Staccato Vocalizations issued thus from Marty Leipzig to Dan Ceppa on 10
Dec 96:

ML> Dan Ceppa, tossing rocks at sportsnuts (the schist hits the fan),said
ML> to Marty Leipzig

-> On 11-27-96  17:58, Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa

SM> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!"   [d&rg]
JH>  GOURDS! GOURDS!  SQUASH HIM!
DC>  GARRANDS!  GARRANDS!  SHOOT HIM!
ML>  GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
EV>  GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
ML>  GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
JH> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
ML> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
DC> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
ML> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
DC> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
ML>      GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!

GaAsFETS! GaAsFETS! AMPLIFY HIM!

edweird


--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: Saint Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/40.762)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ed Mills
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  grrr
|Date: 15 Dec 96  23:09:58
EID:117f 218fb920
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 a9695127
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32b0d949
Staccato Vocalizations issued thus from David Worrell to Ed Mills on 13
Dec 96:

EM>          There. Now somebody besides me knows that story.

DW> And we are ever so happy you decided to share.

Be nice, or I'll tell you the story about the white Zinfandel,
pinto beans and the one-legged prostitute.

edweird


--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: Saint Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/40.762)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ed Mills
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Test
|Date: 15 Dec 96  23:14:25
EID:36dc 218fb9c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 426b6bea
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32b09ab2
Staccato Vocalizations issued thus from Dan Ceppa to Ed Mills on 12 Dec
96:

-> On 12-10-96  21:10, Ed Mills got back to Martin Goldberg

DC> ... 667: The Guy Who Lives Across The Street From The Beast.
MG> ...668: You do the Beast and it owes you one.
EM> 666i:  BMW of the Beast.
DC> What the hell:  Let's start a tagline-war thread!

DC> ... 666tii:  Turbo charged BMW of the Beast!

25 or 666 to 4: Chicago hit song of the Beast.

edweird



--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: Saint Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/40.762)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ed Mills
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  The Fall of the American Empire
|Date: 15 Dec 96  23:22:32
EID:99d4 218fbac0
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 a3b45b05
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b2c0511
Staccato Vocalizations issued thus from Richard Smith to Ed Mills on 14
Dec 96:

RS>   };> Ed Mills wrote in a message to John Brawly <:(

jb> When I watched the few cartoons I did watch (I was dumbfounded that
jb> such actually existed), I did not see any of what you're suggesting.
jb> All I saw was a celebration of anti-intellectualism.
RS>   EM> I'd call it a suggestion of anti-intellectualism.
EM> For a celebration thereof, try church.

  Man, I felt the HEAT on that one . . . touche!

A low overflight of the USAF's finest? I fear I may have
missed it myself...      :)

ÉÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ»
º                  ÚÄÄÄ¿   º
º   ³  ³ ³  ³ ³  ³     ³   º
º   ÃÄÄ´ ³  ³ ÃÄÄ´   ÚÄÙ   º
º   ³  ³ ÀÄÄÙ ³  ³         º
º                    ß     º
ÈÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍͼ


edweird









--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: Saint Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/40.762)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ed Mills
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Nyahh, nyahh.
|Date: 15 Dec 96  23:27:27
EID:9dc9 218fbb60
MSGID: 1:105/40.762 9c253d31
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32b34970
Staccato Vocalizations issued thus from Al Schroeder to Ed Mills on 14 Dec
96:

EM> Regarding the massive work windfall, though: Thank You,
EM> Asmodeus, Wherever You Are!

AS>  I'm JEALOUS....

EM> Can you fix TV's? Come on down!

AS>  Nope. Now, I have two reasons to be jealous...when JJ was cursed, my
AS> drier  blew up and started a fire. You get a lot of work and a lot of
AS>  overtime.

Oh! It was you that got shorted out. I thought J.J. was the
victim of appliance spirits.

One word:  Maytag.

edweird



--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: Saint Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/40.762)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Mimi Milstein
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Message Lengths
|Date: 16 Dec 96  20:04:53
EID:1914 2190a080
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2b5f3120
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32b49dae
Hello Al!

Al Schroeder wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:

AS>  Well, I get free unlimited local calling, and believe me,
AS> all my calls to  BBSes are local (well, I did break down and
AS> call Steve Quarella's a couple  of times...) so it won't
AS> save me any money. But it might be worth pursuing  for other
AS> reasons. How is it done, and what software do you use? I've 
AS> never been a point or even run a BBS, so I haven't the
AS> foggiest.

Here is a repeat of an old msg I wrote to somebody else:

On the other hand, why bother with Bwave if you want a Point
or Node setup? You will not want to remain a BBS user any
longer, but an integral part of Fidonet (plus any other nets
your bossnode provides). When I investigated the scene a couple
of years ago somebody pointed me to a configuration program
named "Escape", and it was an absolute blessing (excuse my
language). It gave the below list of which programs and which
versions to obtain for a Point or Node, queried you about
your preferences, configured all these programs, and tied the
whole thing together inside a goodlooking shell - after which
even a novice could start operating the Point/Node.

Gave me time to slowly observe and understand the inner workings
of such a complicated setup, and make changes and improvements
in my own sweet time - without interrupting the mail flow.

There may be a later ESC version available, but I have never
bothered to upgrade since the 1993 issue. I have however
replaced a couple of the "interior" programs, which is no
sweat once you get the hang of the setup.

ESC ver 1.70  archive would be something like: ESC170.ZIP

BT.EXE       version 2.56    Binkley front end mailer
BinkleyTerm requires:
VFOS_IBM.COM  version 1.10
VFOS_DEL.COM  version 1.00
MSGED.EXE  version 2.2b    message reader
or
TIMED.EXE  version /9beta  message reader
QEDIT.EXE  version 3.0c    editor
SQUISH.EXE   version 1.01    mail packer (+associated files)
BNU.EXE    version 1.7     fossil
or
X00.EXE    version 1.24    fossil
CMB.EXE      any version     file browser (mouse)
LIST.COM     any version     dir/file multi-utility
PAK.EXE      version 2.50    multi archiver / extractor
PKZIP.EXE    version 1.10    file archiver
PKUNZIP.EXE  version 1.10    file archive extractor
Only if you'll be using and/or creating a nodelist
XLAXNODE.EXE version 2.56    NODELIST compiler
If you want your mail areas searched for personal messages:
WIMM.EXE     version 1.10    Message search utility

Give it a try :-)

... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/21 9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  ask and ye shall rece
|Date: 10 Dec 96  02:43:00
EID:9cd2 218a1560
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org ac825fa8
REPLY: 1:261/1137 89040685
PID: FM 2.02
>>>  SS> I saved the label from an European soft drink bottle yclept
>>>  SS> _Pschit_ I acquired many years ago. It may have passed by now.


>>>  To cut down the gunplay, it was decided that anyone who complained
>>>  about the quality of a meal would be the next to cook it.
>>>         When it came Shorty's turn, everyone managed to grimace and
>>>  shovel the putrid proteins down.  Utah Phil, whoever, came in late
>  SM>                                       ^^^^^^^^^


>  SM> This is a truncated form of UTAH PHILLIPS, who is believed to have
>  SM> written this story.

>         I was just making up names to for versimilitude; "Tex" came
>  to mind but I rejected it as too cliched; "Utah" sounded fresh,
>  and the singer's name suggested Phil, so I just ran with it.
>         The full name is U. Utah Phillips.

Yeppers, sure is.

I don't know if old U. Utah is still amongst us......

>         No lie; this was serendipity?  As of two decades ago, it'd
>  passed into being a old, old, joke that everybody had heard too
>  many times.  Along with the one about "Well, your mother makes
>  lousy biscuits."

Could be -- but out of ten times I've ever listened to that story, in nine
cases it was UUP narrating.

>  SM> Phillips was a songster for the Wobblies (Industrial Workers of the
>  SM> World). He wrote and sung materials for the IWW for seventy long
years.

>         Some of his non-political stuff is pretty humorous.

"Ever been to Utah?? WHY??"

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Doug Lee
|Sub:  Anti-Abortion Mania
|Date: 16 Dec 96  21:46:01
EID:87e9 2190adc0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b3b
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 32a9e725
PID: FM 2.02
>  SM> Oh, I forgot; you're Canadian. Your country has a bunch of silly
laws
>  SM> regarding handguns.
>  SM> (The only SENSIBLE law regulating handguns I've ever seen is the
>  SM> Kennesaw Ordinance in Georgia!)

>  SA> Yes, but we have far less murders per capita.  I think we can live
>  SA> without handguns.

>  Only 35 murders for Vancouver in 1992. Not bad for a city of 1.5
> million.

>  Can Chicago claim the same?

Of course not, no.

But you could eliminate *all* firearms in Chicago, and the answer would
not change one micron.

Chicagoites, _per natura eorum_, are incapable of having fewer than 500
murders per annum. They would simply switch to knives, clubs, automobiles,
and poisons like their bretheren in Los Angeles demonstrated so well when
California imposed ITS firearms restrictions.

============================================================================
All of us -- myself and all Canadians in this thread alike -- must remember
that Canada is nowhere near as crowded as the US is.

Montreal, your largest city, isn't much bigger (population) than Salt Lake
City. And Vancouver's smaller than Seattle, if memory serves me correctly.

Moreover, like it or not, Professor B.F. Skinner's Crowded Rat Syndrome
applies to us two-leggeds. The worse the crowding becomes, the worse assholes
WE become to eachother. Just like _Rattus norvegicus_ does.

============================================================================

Another fun fact to impress your friends:

The ONLY nation on Earth wherein the disarming and prohibition of the civilian
populace hasn't IMMEDIATELY resulted in tyrannically totalitarian States
*IS* Canada.

In ALL other places where the government reserved firearms to itself, the
result was an out-of-control State apparatus and totalitarian rule. Whether
it's the Julian Law under Rome, the arms restrictions under medaeval feudalism,
or modern governmental "gun control", disarming the populace has resulted
in repression and unquestionable tyranny.

Everywhere else but Canada.

I would remind Chris Green and his fellow Anglo-Britons at this juncture
that I consider the repressive British taxation, especially to support an
illegitimate Monarch and a non-Parliament, as quite repressive.

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  execute her ?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  21:48:02
EID:6449 2190ae00
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b3c
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 32a32eb6
PID: FM 2.02
>  RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
>  Jim Staal said to Quentin Fai about execute her ?:

>  JS> Yeah. Why didn't you and Becky tie the knot? Just curious.
>   QF> She tied the knot with someone else.
>  JS> Much later...

>  Gads, he is so terminally braindead that I'm surprized that
>  his feeble intellect can generate enough electrical activity
>  to get his body moving . . . maybe he needs someone to draw
>  him a timechart with a nice picture of Barney or something
>  on it.

>  Otherwise, why would he be trolling you, other than the fact
>  that he's clueless?

Jim cannot believe that anyone would turn down the chance to become married,
no matter how unreasonably based.

Never mind the fact that most humans ARE, alas, better off by themselves....


slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  execute her ?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  21:50:03
EID:4862 2190ae40
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b3d
REPLY: 1:207/212      b67d0a51
PID: FM 2.02
> On (07 Dec 96) Sean McCullough wrote to Jim Staal...

>  SM> I have yet to experience ANY evidence that marriage is anything else
>  SM> but another name for oppression and chattel ownership -- EVER.

> How about committed partnership?

THESE I've seen work.

Kindly please remember to whom my message was primarily addressed.


I was speaking of marriage as Bible-beLIEving Christians understand it.

I doubt VIOLENTLY that it is much similar to YOUR concept of the same at
all.


slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  Legislating Morality
|Date: 16 Dec 96  21:50:04
EID:7656 2190ae40
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b3e
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 84aac283
PID: FM 2.02
> On (07 Dec 96) Sean McCullough wrote to Marilyn Burge...

>  SM> I caught a bunch of TIHS one time for saying exactly that!!

>  SM> ~!~ The Constitution: It says what it means and means what it says!

> THE CONSTITUTION is the contract with America.  

Love. It. !!

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Sue Armstrong
|Sub:  Anti-Abortion Mania
|Date: 16 Dec 96  21:57:05
EID:18a6 2190af20
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b3f
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32ad59b2
PID: FM 2.02
>  SM> Thank you for proving my point for me!!    ;-)


> Why?  So there can be a repeat of what goes on in Detroit, with kids
> shooting kids?  Who would be the worse here, the bullies or the
> person with a gun?

The bullies -- without question.

I call you to remember that most children who pull this crap were taught
to do it by their parents.

A few kids, in strategic places and times, returning home in BODY BAGS,
would do outright WONDERS for the elimination of such upbringing.

Goat only KNOWS we've tried everything else.


> I actually ran into my former tormenters some years ago.  They
> recognised me as I was on my way home from a friend's house, and
> called to me from a porch.  As I stood on the lawn, warily, they not
> only reintroduced themselves, but apologised and offered a beer.
> They admitted what buttheads they wer as kids, etc etc, and I went
> away half an hour later with many ghosts put to rest.

And having made genuine history, as this is *not* how it usually happens.

If the bullies' contemporaries are lucky, they'll be drafted into combat
and almost certainly killed.

Otherwise, some other poor bastard needs to kill them, and serve time for
it. Or they'll kill some innocent bystander by driving aggressively (the
main such operation obtaining today, whether with handguns or without).

>>  SM> Oh, I forgot; you're Canadian. Your country has a bunch of silly
laws
>>  SM> regarding handguns.
>>  SM> (The only SENSIBLE law regulating handguns I've ever seen is the
>>  SM> Kennesaw Ordinance in Georgia!)

>> Yes, but we have far less murders per capita.  I think we can live
>> without handguns.

As I pointed out to another Canadian user, the ONLY place where this would
even be considerable IS Canada.

In all other places where populace disarmament has occurred, repressively
totalitarian regimes were the result.

The ONLY place this hasn't happened IS Canada. (I consider British taxation
as qualifying for the "repressively totalitarian" remark in their case.)

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  MY SUMMER WEEKEND
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:00:06
EID:a46c 2190b000
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b40
PID: FM 2.02
>  -=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Roger Hunter <=-

>> And I would imagine that all pagans are not legally married as well?

>  SM> False.

> Badly phrased.

> I should have said that "not all pagans are legally married".

OK, that's another matter. I just had your -1 in the wrong place.

>  SM> "Adultery" has not been, per se, a crime in Colorado since 1947.
The
>  SM> statute prohibiting it is still on the books, yes, but without any
>  SM> authorized penalty.

> Is that when we switched to no-fault? I know my son's divorce was
> relatively painless. No children, no contest, no problem.

I don't think we were completely no-fault until the early 1960's.

>  SM> In other words, the violation exsists solely for the VERY few divorces
>  SM> we have which are faultbased in nature. 99.6% of Colorado marriage
>  SM> dissolutions are non-disputed; most of the rest, only arbitrated.

>> Another cause for concern.

>  SM> I don't see Coloradoans killing eachother or kidnapping eachothers'
>  SM> kids on a daily basis. I see NO reason why the public has any business
>  SM> dictating to adults what they shall and shall not contract, so long
as
>  SM> no third party suffers harm from the same...........

> Again, I meant the harm comes from the law, not the action. Sorta like
> drug laws. Getting busted will do more harm than the pot EVER did.

No joke!


> But still, where children are involved, great harm can result if the
> law allowed parents to walk away scott free, for example.

Usually, this isn't disputed by either parent.

Where it IS disputed, the kid usually NEEDS taken away from said "parents"
anyhow.

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Rant Wars with "Commie Sue".
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:01:07
EID:e8f9 2190b020
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b41
REPLY: 1:229/622 32adfc34
PID: FM 2.02
>  SM>      1: My apologies to anyone who may experience "collateral insult"
>  SM> upon reading these messages, especially "Commie Sue"'s fellow
>  SM> Canadians.

> NOW you say so. Have you considered prefacing wide-range invectives
> with warnings?

I did do exactly that.

This message was posted BEFORE the rants were.

By several HOURS worth, in fact.

My apologies if it didn't arrive that way.

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:02:08
EID:097f 2190b040
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b42
PID: FM 2.02
> Sean McCullough, bereft (missing the last plane out of Tokyo), said to
> Sue Armstrong

>> Frankly, I find your tirades against "superfluous" people tiresome
>> and insulting at best.

>  SM> Poor baby. Here, have some cheese to counterbalance all that WHINE.

>  SM> It's not MY fault that Thomas Malthus was right, and that the sole
>  SM> reason we've managed to evade his direst predictions so far is that
we
>  SM> (i.e., the Eurasian races of humans) are so much in love with
>  SM> virtually continuous long-term warfare

>      Not wishing to precipitate on your column of marchers, but I
>      think you are unjust in singling out only Eurasian races of
>      humans that are uncontrollably amorized with genocide. Cast a
>      gander at the Middle East ("Those aren't countries, those are
>      quarrels with borders." - PJ O'Rourke), Africa and other
>      countries where such lovely euphemisms as "genetic cleansing",
>      "ethnic cleansing" and "striving to keep the line pure" are
>      used. Feudal Japan (and to some extent, even Japan of today),
>      Native Americans (although not terribly active of late), the
>      Chinese (all who-knows-how-many-BILLION strong), the various
>      Middle Eastern groups, and the myriad tribes of Africa...

>      No, Sean. I disagree.

>      Mankind of ANY race is a homicidal xenophobe of the first
>      water.

>      Although your Malthusian objections are made even more cogent
>      with their inclusion.

I merely restricted myself to cases I could evidence at hand.

I realize that you are correct here.

You also can evidence ALL of it if you had to, too.    :-)


slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  LDS Papal Baptisms, Revis
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:07:09
EID:827c 2190b0e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b43
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b12999
PID: FM 2.02
> SM> Overweight men, who have always been so (like me), who are successes
at
> SM> finding companions, exist about as much as the Christers' God-thingie.

> So what is Wild?  He was nearing the three hundred mark when I married
> him (wanna see that handfasting pictures??).

I'd rather see his leathers from back then......   [d&rg]

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Bluewave OLR and stuff...
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:09:10
EID:6386 2190b120
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b44
PID: FM 2.02
>      Then.

>      Exactly one month later, the thing refuses my registration code
>      and claims to be an unregistered evaluation copy. Reinstall and
>      re-registering did nothing. I called the Bluewave BBS and it's
>      been disconnected, no forwarding address. I got on the
>      Internet, went to the BW homepage and left 3 separate messages
>      with absolutely zero response.

>      Anyone else hear of this problem (no sweat, I can always go
>      back to the still registered and still resident v2.12)? It
>      still pisses me off. I pay for the upgrade and the fucker
>      augers in like a USAir flight after 15 Rum and Cokes. No
>      support, no answer, no nada.

>      Comments?

I see another Point system in your future.

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  physics comedy
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:13:11
EID:f8bf 2190b1a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b45
REPLY: 1:105/40.762 2f86dea2
PID: FM 2.02
> Staccato Vocalizations issued thus from Sean McCullough to Ed Mills on
> 09 Dec 96:

>  SM> In fact, the ONLY form of carbon with much impurity tolerance at
all
>  SM> IS graphite. The crystallization processes for diamonds and buckyballs
>  SM> render the carbon VERY pure indeed. (0.5% impurities will prevent
>  SM> diamond formation.)

>          Oh goody. I got someone hooked who can maybe answer this
>          tangential question (I know this is a sharp left turn from
>          carbon, but it's been bothering me for eons): You know those
>          little ferrite beads that they use to keep conductors from
>          radiating harmonics into adjacent circuitry - often found in
>          RF sections and places where spiky waveforms get handled?
>          By "ferrite," it would seem that the things are made of iron
>          or iron oxide, yes?

>          But they're nonconductive! They hang on uninsulated leads that
>          can carry a couple kvac, and touch chassis ground as if they
>          were made of rubber. What gives? Last I heard, iron was just
a
>          little bit conductive.

Ferrite is a ferro-magnetic vitreous ceramic material.

Iron is a minority component; different ferrites contain differing amounts.
(The raw stock blocks have different colors painted on the ends, for this
reason.)

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sean McCullough
|To:   Doug Lee
|Sub:  Rant Wars with "Commie Sue".
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:18:12
EID:b8b3 2190b240
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b46
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 32b074a1
PID: FM 2.02
>  -=> Quoting Sean McCullough to All <=-

>  SM> Hello, All!!

>  SM> Recently, I received a rant-message from Sue Armstrong of
>  SM> Windsor, Ontario.
>  SM> I decided to answer by counter-ranting her.

>   The tactics of a child. Shout louder.

I never claimed it was sophisticated debate.


>  SM> The result was a multi-message return rant compared with which Al
>  SM> Schroeder's worst rants are mere PIKERS. (If I dare say so
>  SM> myself.....)


>  SM> 1: My apologies to anyone who may experience "collateral insult"
>  SM> upon reading these messages, especially "Commie Sue"'s fellow
>  SM> Canadians.

>  Sean, in reading that "counter-rant" I feel that I have never seen such
>  a display of self-lothing in my entire life.

Sorry. As usual, your application of psychoanalysis is full of shit.

(Usual for psychoanalysis, that is, not for Doug Lee.)

In my mind, I say what I mean, and mean what I say. I possess an intellect
that works very directly. Attempts to read other meanings into my words
are guaranteed to fail.

In the real world, a desire to maintain one's own freedom, even and especially
at the cost of another's safety, is evidence of self-ESTEEM, not self-loathing.

And recognition of the FACT that other human beings are inherently malicious,
and recognizing therefore the need for superior destructive power to these
other human beings, is simply reasonable.

It is simple REASON to recognize that, regardless of how humankind came
to be, it still took Sam Colt and his useful little invention the handgun
to make us equal.

AND IT ALWAYS WILL, EVERYWHERE.

Live With It.

slack -- s.

--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Vox Anarchistica! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  .
|Date: 16 Dec 96  07:27:26
EID:a0cf 21903b60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f74a
AS> RC> Sorry, Al, but you're just behaving like an ignorant bullshitter
AS> RC> again.  Your preposterous definition of plasma is quite a keeper!

AS> Indeed? Then favor us with your own.


RV> Be funny as Hell, if Curry does it in math.

Sure would.  When we're talking about a physical state of matter.



... I am intolerant only of the intolerant.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  ..
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:16:46
EID:4860 21904a00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f74b
RV> ---- AS> Davies seemed to be your least favorite of your recent authors...but
I
AS> think he has something interesting to say. I came across this on his
web
AS> page. You might be interested, as might the rest of the echo...

RV> Since Davies, according to you is my least favorite author ? Please
do
RV> explain why i have bought two of his books and do recommend his
RV> writeings to any who know little of science and want to learn a bit.

Sorry, that was the impression I got from a previous post. Personally,
I like Davies. That's why I added a link to his web page on my Science
page.

RV> He has a nice writeing style and now i have another author to tie
RV> along with ease of explaining things and also a nice writeing style,
RV> A.Zee author of 'Fearful Symmetry'. Because i may disagree with the
RV> author beliefs or his ideas of the outcome, doesn't mean i dislike the
RV> author. 

Good. I'm the same way about Weinberg, or Gell-Mann, or Pagels.

RV> Let me make up my own mind Al. Your not god, neither am I.

Please do.




... Coincidence?  No. Cthulhu.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|Date: 16 Dec 96  07:48:29
EID:48f3 21903e00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f74c
AS>  The number of people who engage in any kind of electronic messaging,
AS>  whether Fidonet, Usenet, #irc, or whatever, is still a minority.

DC> A single death of an individual is not diminished because it was read

DC> by a minority of people.  That death is felt, or at least should 
DC> be felt, by all that had the opportunity to have read the messages 
DC> that the person posted.  I take it you had never "met" Jonny Vee.  

I believe he was before my time.

AS> The  individual who died is beyond our help or harm.

DC> Where you have it wrong is the harm part.  Everyone should be 
DC> far beyound that.  As to the help part, that depends on how 
DC> much a person allows you to help.  

Yes.

AS>  To live? Yes. I have yet to be bored by life. I'd live forever if I

DC> Nope, not being bored by life, but by having a life that was 
DC> too hard to continue to live.  

And that happens too. There's a woman who's in the hospital who is, as she
puts it, "ready". She's hurt about everyway she can be hurt, she's old,
she's ready to give it up. She's a believer, and has had enough of this
life.

AS> have said they  don't feel that way. But I have yet to be bored by
AS> life. It's an enormous  puzzle, 

DC> Of course it is.  It's making the pieces fit and not trying to 
DC> make them fit with a hammer that makes it life.  

And sometimes to realize that no matter what elation you might get in
fitting pieces together, it MIGHT be a view of the overall picture will
not be granted you.


AS>    One thing that does weigh heavily on me is that Jamie and Eric will
AS>  always need some help, and I won't be here to help them, always.

DC> Hate to say it, but there will be one day that you will not be 
DC> there, ever, for them.  Just do your best to ensure that there 
DC> is someway that your wishes can be fulfilled after your demise.  

I have; there are finanical plans, people to assume custody. But it's
still nothing I like turning over to someone else.

AS> tomorrow...)    BTW, Dan, you night be travelling for the holidays,
so
AS> let me take a  second to wish you the best of the season, in a secular

DC> Winter Solstice will be here soon, for sure! 

Exactly.

AS> way, of course,  and hope you and your family enjoy this season as
AS> much as possible. And I  want to thank you who do work on Christmas
AS> and Sundays for putting up with  the religious foibles of those who
AS> elect not to.

DC> It's not 'elect not too', it's part of the job.  The problem 
DC> with xmas is that it really does come only one day a year.  
DC> Imagine if the xiatian spirit that makes it the holiday that 
DC> it was lasted the entire year.  

Yes. We need to work at that. But we can be glad for the one day where we
ARE reminded of all that.

DC> It doesn't, though, does it.  

Nope.

AS>    (Or Saturdays, for Jewish people, etc.)

DC> My Mom used to work for a Jewish firm.  They were open 
DC> on Saturdays.  The owners didn't work, but the other 
DC> workers did.  

Interesting. But then, it is one of the major shopping days. I remember
when blue laws used to close most businesses on Sunday. Now, most
businesses are open.

DC> As above about xmas:  It's only a time of the the year to 
DC> let you think you are a true what-xian.  It's not what you 
DC> feel, it's how your bretheren see you.  After all, if it 
DC> works for one day a year, why can't you make it work for 
DC> 365 1/4 days a year?  

It's something that everybody needs to work on...especially the peace on
earth, good will towards men.




... Merry Xmas, Happy Hanukah, Feliz Navidad, etc, etc, etc
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  DAVIES THEE
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:17:45
EID:1fa8 21904a20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f74d
AS> Interesting article, I think.



RV> ~*~
RV> When He supposedly said"let there be light" perhaps
RV> He actually said "Let there be an SU(5) Yang-Mills theory with
RV> all its gauge bosons, let the symmentry be broken down spontaneously
RV> , and let all but one of the remaining massless gauge bosons
RV> be sold into infrared slavery. That one last gauge boson is my
RV> favorite. Let him rush forth to illuminate all my creations!"

RV> From ....Fearful Symmetry.... page 232....
RV> ~*~

Could be.



... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Good grief.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  08:17:26
EID:8895 21904220
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f74e
DC> Don't count Fido out as yet.

AS>  I hope not. I find it much less confusing than the Usenet groups.

DC> One of the reasons that Fido is still viable!  

Yes. And of course, it's cheaper than internet access...

AS>  I must admit I never set myself up as a "point" and have no idea how
AS> to go  about it. (I've never run a BBS either.) What is involved, if

DC> I have no idea!  Seriously, I'm still trying to get things to 
DC> work a bit easier.  

DC> As it is, the basic setup was easy, and I am online.  However, 
DC> the tweeking is not so easy, though I've gotten some good 
DC> suggestions as to get things more like I used to have with 
DC> the Wildcat feed I used to get.  

Is PPoint the software that you use?



... Error, no Keyboard - Press F1 to Continue.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Jimmy Swaggart: True Christian!  Don't deny it!
|Date: 16 Dec 96  08:46:20
EID:a1bb 219045c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f74f
ml> Filth like Swaggart is unpardonable.
FR> I have no problem with him bilking the ignorant; he's obviously an

AS> Swaggert off  the "Real, True Christian" list and put him on the

AS>  philosophy...but speaking for all Christians everywhere, we're GLAD
AS> to  give him away.

DC> Jim Staal worships the ground Swaggart walks on.  (Or is that 
DC> the "fields" Swaggart plowed?)  

My opinion on Swaggert is a little different from Jim's. On my theology
web page I have links to C.S. Lewis, to Charles Williams, to Tolkien, to
George McDonald, to Dorothy L. Sayers...but not a one to any current
evangelist.



... Avoid cliches like the plague.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  MIRACLE
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:00:10
EID:ae65 21904800
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f750
AS> RV> And if you still refuse. We'll piss on you for 40 days/nights and
AS> RV> drown you in god given H2O.

AS> Doubtless after urinating sixty feet straight up...

RV> I thought it was 50 feet ?

Hey, as long as it's a miracle, why not grab an extra ten feet or so...




... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  MIRACLE:PROFESSION OF JOY
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:06:04
EID:a790 219048c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f751
> RM> Laurie Appleton might be a Nobel Prize winner too, but there's no
sign
> RM> of it in this forum.

AS> No. I may believe in miracles, but THERE I draw the line...

RV> W H Y  ?

Because I believe in free will, and Appleton is a willfull idiot.



... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  FREE WILL
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:29:21
EID:0a59 21904ba0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32b5f752
DC> Al, I'm not arguing about the fate of the rapist.  Such an 
DC> individual never belonged in the human race in the first place.  
DC> I'm arguing about the life that the little girl must lead after 
DC> being raped.  

Yes.

DC> Of course I do.  It's a tagline that the girl has to suffer 
DC> her physical and mental abuse for eternity, unless of course 
DC> your god wipes out her memories.  It would have been far 
DC> better to have not allowed the rapist to rape in the first place. 

For that particular girl? No doubt.

DC> Why not?  Does he enjoy torturing and allowing his creations to 
DC> be tortured?  

No. Or not in my opinion, anyway.

DC> The girl did NOT, Al, and I repeat, NOT WANT TO BE RAPED!  Yet, Your

DC> god allows the free will of the rapists and fully ignores her pleas.


As He allows the free will of someone who stops rapes, like a policeman.

DC> Imposing your free will is tatamount to taking away the free 
DC> will of the other.  See above, about the free will of the 
DC> girl not to be raped.  

Hmmm. So you would allow free will as long as it doesn't conflict with
another...in others words, a more restricted will than truly "free".

DC> No you can't.  She was the one that was raped by the big guy 
DC> that wanted to rape her, of his free will.  Your god allowed 
DC> the rapist to use his free will and ignored the little girl's 
DC> whimpers for help.  

Yes. As He allowed someone to have nails driven through their flesh and
horribly tortured.

AS>  Ethically, we are taking the first steps. We still fall a lot.
AS> Hopefully,  someday, we will be able to run.

DC> Only when you unsaddle yourself of a god that still allows 
DC> only might and brutality by the powerful to be "right".  

Dan, there's probably no answer for this one that will satisfy you, and
it's probably one of these points where we must agree to disagree. But I
think man's ability to decide for HIMSELF...for instance, your ability to
reject God...is even more important than the abuse that can result of
that ability. Which includes putting your will on others.




... It is illogical to expect a universe to exist.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Musselwhite
|To:   Sally Springett
|Sub:  aska and ye shall rec
|Date: 13 Dec 96  17:01:44
EID:5dae 218d8820
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32b4d214
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ 5db3fdbe
Hi Sally...

On 08 Dec 96  10:09:00, Sally Springett penned the following to John Musselwhite

re: aska and ye shall rec

JM> Only in western cultures do you normally find women crying and
JM> thrashing about. In other cultures it's a normal and fairly
JM> painless process.

SS> Do you also believe that black people don't experience pain the way
SS> "we" do?

I didn't mention any specific people, just cultures. From an
evolutionary standpoint in some parts of the world men are
attracted to women with a physical structure which makes
childbirth somewhat easier. As well, some cultures are more
pre-disposed to tolerate pain than others, possibly due again
to selection for those whose bodies produce more endorphins.

What I was mostly referring to was the western cultural bias
toward attributing some of the pain of childbirth to biblical
influences and making some of it psychological. It's like an
"inbred" fear of snakes due to the snake representing the devil
in a culture's mythology.

SS> Sorry, but only someone whose experience doesn't include having a
SS> baby could have posted the above. You can tell us about "painless"

I make no apologies for not having gone through it. I'm
speaking merely from what I considered an anthropological
viewpoint and purely through my own observations.

SS> processes after you recover from passing your kidney stone (the only
SS> pain that matches childbirth on the dolor scale). I have done both.
SS> Childbirth wins. 

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not belittling the pain many
women feel in childbirth at all. I understand the physical
problems which have evolved with our species and I sympathize
with you.

SS> Culture may bear on reactions but pain is pain. While it is

Ahhhh... but pain is NOT just pain and reactions are not just
reactions. People still walk on hot coals and chefs still pull
hot pans from the oven without gloves... and women in some
cultures have babies and enjoy it. Ours is not one of them
whether it has to do with body structure, natural endorphin
production or social pressures.

SS> certainly true that some cultures don't give a damn about the
SS> discomfort of women, I don't personally find that attitude
SS> charming.

I do not find it charming either, but then some cultures don't
give a damn about the discomfort of anyone.

John


... Did I just step on someone's toes again?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 134/67 1 17 153/752 716 920 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Freethinkers United
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:03
EID:116f 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24578
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> Can you send me more information on this? 

Certainly. 

========================================================================

Imagine! Freethinkers United! 
========================================================================


The Third Annual Atheist Alliance Convention will be hosted in 1997 
by Atheists of Florida, together and in cooperation with the statewide 
convention for Humanists of Florida -- bringing to you thought-provoking

speakers and eclectic panels to challenge our "Sacred Cows" in today's 
issues, as well as banquets, awards, humor and laughter (even a "psychic"

to beguile and amuse). 


----------------------- TOPICS ----- 

Just look at this partial listing of topics: 

o  Humanism vs. Atheism -- Similarities and Differences 

o  It's Not Easy Being Green 

o  Making Humanism Relevant 

o  Education in the Twenty-First Century 

o  <<>> more coming in 


--------------------- SPEAKERS ----- 

We only have room to list a few accomplishments of each speaker, some 
of whom are listed here, but your Convention Program will give you 
the full "scoop" on each celebrity: 

o  Keynote Speaker. GERALD A. LARUE, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of 
Biblical History and Archeology, University of Southern California; 
1989 Humanist of the Year, American Humanist Association; Author 
of _Freethought Across the Centuries_ and other books. 

o  ANNETTE VAN HOWE, Humanist and Civil Rights Activist; 1996 Humanist 
Heroine, American Humanist Association; Delegate to the UN's 4th 
World Conference on Women in Beijing, China. 

o  STEPHEN MUMFORD, Ph.D., President of the Center for Research on 
Population and Security; Author of _Population Growth Control: the 
Next Move is America's_ and other books. 

o  MARGARET DOWNEY, Founder and President of the Freethought Society 
of Greater Philadelphia, the Anti-Discrimination Network, and 
the Thomas Paine Pennsylvania Memorial Committee. 

o  PAUL KURTZ, leader of the Council for Secular Humanism and Editor 
of their journal, _Free Inquiry_; Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, 
State University of New York (Buffalo); author of numerous books, 
articles, and reviews. 

o  FRED EDWORDS, Executive Director of the American Humanist Association

and Editor of _The Humanist_ magazine. 


------------ CONVENTION EVENTS ----- 

Full Registration includes four meals -- dinner on Friday, Saturday 
lunch and evening banquet, and breakfast on Sunday. 


---------------------- LODGING ----- 

The Clarion Plaza Hotel in Orlando, Florida (9700 International Drive) 
is an elegant hotel that provides handicapped-accesible elevators, a 
beautiful pool and many other amenities. The room rate for the joint 
Humanist/Alliance Convention is only $66.00 per night (plus taxes), 
and each room can accomodate from one to four persons. This is truly 
a bargain for Easter weekend -- the peak of Florida's tourist season! 

Simply CALL 800.627.8258 to reserve your room. To obtain the special 
conference rate, you must (1) reserve your room before February 28th, 
1997, and (2) mention the HUMANIST/ATHEIST CONVENTION. All guests 
must make their own reservations. Please note: lodging is not included 
in the Convention Registration. 

For further information, phone Mitch Modisette at 813.788.5516, or 
just ask here in the HolySmoke echoarea. 

========================================================================


--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Jesse Jones
|Sub:  Who gives what
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:04
EID:f5e2 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24579
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Fredric Rice 

JJ>> What possible obligation do Christians have to give financial 
JJ>> support to secular institutions? 

RC> Like the Red Cross? (Yes, it's a secular institution.) 
RC> Gee... that would depend on the Christian, I guess. 

JJ> The Red Cross is a fine organization; I'm glad it is out there. 

Indeed. It is an excellent, productive (and quite secular) altruistic 
organization. There are others out there, as well. I highly recommend 
contributing one's time or money -- in whatever combination one 
can give -- to worthwhile institutions providing real social benefits 
without needless and intrusive religious superstitions attached. 


--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  axioms
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:05
EID:773f 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2457a
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> Now again...do you believe nothing without a reason, including 
AS>> mathematical axioms? 

RC> Already answered that one, as you well know. 

AS> No, I have yet to hear an unequivocal answer on that point. 

Pay attention, Al. From the EXACT SAME POSTING you replied to: 

AS>>> You believe nothing without a reason? Including mathematical 
AS>>> axioms? 
 
AS> So your answer is "no". 

RC> Indeed -- you understood this monosyllabic negative as intended. 

Did you see that as *equivocal*? Did you see it at all? What gives? 


AS>> If you do not, then please tell us your reasoning for accepting 
AS> many mathematical axioms. 

RC> "Accepting?" In what sense do you *assume* I accept them, Al? 

AS> The same sense that one ACCEPTS the rules of a game, Robert. 

In that case, I "accept" them in order to see what logically follows 
from them. The game of mathematics is a vast collection of many 
different possibilities, and I love it. 


AS> But the principle of USING axioms is quite common, no matter 
AS> which axioms you choose. 

That's what makes it math, Al. Please note that there is a difference

between USING and BELIEVING, notwithstanding your misconceptions. 


AS> So the answer is...you employ or use many things without 
AS> reason underpinning it. Like [using] axioms. 

Like dancing under a cloudy sky in mid-December. Like making up 
funny stories for children to laugh at. Like responding to Creole 
in German, because it makes a friend smile. Like enjoying a good 
book in solitude. Like sharing embarrassing stories with someone 
who is feeling vulnerable to let them know they are not alone. 

Like a lot of things, Al. 

None of which involves *believing* something without a reason. 



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  more trivialities
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:06
EID:093a 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2457b
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> Argument ad hominem, BTW. 
RC> Eh? What argument? That's just an additional observation, Idiot. 

AS> No doubt it bolsters your own self-confidence to denigrate others. 

Maybe you should give doubt a try. It would help you avoid making 
so many assumptions with the inevitable result of getting your foot 
constantly stuck in your mouth. 

So how would you suggest I refer to you, Al, when you continuously 
make the same stupid mistakes again and again, over and over, after 
they've been pointed out to you numerous times? 

As a Genius? 



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  sunshine
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:07
EID:ee08 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2457c
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> I publicly state without reversation or qualification that I have 
AS> not found anything that explicitedly defines a sample space for 
AS> the anthropic principle. 

No one asked you for a sample space "for the anthropic principle." 

AS> Mainly because we don't know for sure how much the constants can 
AS> be changed. But of course we can certainly work out differing 
AS> universes that seem quite workable, with different constants...if 
AS> they can be varied that much, the sample space would be infinite 
AS> or at least near-infinite. 

It's no big deal to work with an infinite sample space. 
Let me know if you ever decide to produce (or at least cite) one. 



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  Jesse's brain
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:08
EID:25e1 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2457d
TID: GE/2 1.2
JJ>>> The stupidity of the question was obvious to all, except perhaps 
JJ>>> Dan himself. 

SQ>> I'd like to know how my name suddently became "Dan." 

RC> It's a mystery to me, Mark. 

SQ> Goodnight, Chet! 

Eat your vegetables, George. 


SQ> "Me?  Not allowed?  I'm allowed everywhere!" 

Watch out here in HolySmoke, though. There's more than one MISTER. 


--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:09
EID:d923 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2457e
TID: GE/2 1.2
SQ> Haven't tried any brewpubs in Orlando, as I've never been to 
SQ> Florida. But I am willing to learn! 

So what are you planning for Easter weekend, 1997? 


RC> I hereby nominate you and Fred for the HolySmoke Convention 
RC> Committee. We should plan to have one in 1998. 
RC> (Do I hear a second?) 

SQ> How does a cardinal say "No, thank you" if they elect him Pope? 

Congratulations. You may now shit in the woods. 




--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Jeff Marchizi
|Sub:  Euthanasia
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:10
EID:acbf 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2457f
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Historically speaking, this church (and many others) allowed 
RC> euthanasia only for those whom they branded as enemies. Sometimes 
RC> they even went so far as to carry out the enforced euthanasia 
RC> themselves. 

JM>  Thanks, do you know where this information might be found? 

A good starting point would be _The Encyclopedia of Unbelief_. 
Check out your local public library, and ask the reference librarian 
for assistance. It could be worth a trip to a nearby university 
library, if need be. 

Good luck with your studies. 




--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:11
EID:f78c 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24580
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Steve Quarrella 

RC> I hereby nominate you and Fred for the HolySmoke Convention 
RC> Committee. We should plan to have one in 1998. 
RC> (Do I hear a second?) 

MG> I'll second. 

MG> Do I hear Las Vegas Gideon Bibles burning? 


Do I smell scotch? Or is that bourbon? 





--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  christian freewill
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:12
EID:d0e7 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24581
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> And the parable about the Demiurge? When Celsus defended it 
AS>> as more reasonable than Christian explanations what "reason" 
AS>> did he advance for believing in a Demiurge? 

RC> Since none of the works by Celsus survived Christian censorship 
RC> by book-burning, we have no definitive answer to that question. 

AS> True. Although we know a great deal about him from Christian 
AS> ANSWERS to his objections... 

Do you trust the objectivity and fairness of people who DESTROYED 
those writings which opposed them? Is that wise? We know *only* 
what the Christian apologists felt they could answer, and we have 
no record of what they just burned without daring to address. 
I would prefer to see the other side as stated _BY_ the other side. 



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  coincidence none
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:13
EID:08dc 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24582
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> How do the electron proton charge strength differ? Not at all, 
AS>> to the limits of testability. 

RC> Is there any reason to think that charge is a continuous, rather 
RC> than a discrete natural quality? 

AS> None, in the set of constants we have in this universe. But note; 
AS> all other things concerning the electron and proton (mass; spin, 
AS> etc.) are very different. 

So what? Spin is also a discrete quality, btw. 

Mass either may or may not be; we don't know. For your information, 
it happens to be a fact that any sufficiently large collection of 
discrete entities will *approximate* a continuous range. 


--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  false credit
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:14
EID:6b61 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24583
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Seeking unitary, universal foundations for the world was not 
RC> alien to Greek philosophy -- Euclid existed centuries before 
RC> Christinsanity. 

AS> He did indeed; and how much did his worldview affect the man 
AS> on the street? 

Directly, not much at all; indirectly, well, here we are living in 
a technological civilization which resulted from using the tools 
of mathematics in the Euclidean tradition (and what has been built 
upon that tradition, growing and expanding beyond it in the past 
twenty three centuries). 

AS> Whereas whatever else you may say about the Christians, they 
AS> were pretty effective in spreading their worldview. 

There were never any holy wars over mathematics, no. Is that bad? 


AS> The traditional exclusionist view, which tends to happen more 
AS> often in monotheistic religions, is that there is a right way, 
AS> and the others are wrong. 

And is this your view? 


AS> And although certainly there are people I have personality 
AS> clashes with (like you and myself) that does not mean I think 
AS> you are "evil", Robert. That's an adjective I usually only 
AS> reserve for serial murderers or Nazi holocaust criminals. 

I suppose I shall have to make do with being "depraved" instead. 



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  helium gaffe
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:15
EID:7af2 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24584
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> If someone talked about the odd properties of certain gases at high

AS> temperatures, and I mentioned how "steam acts at high temperatures"

AS> would you then castigate me for adding the "at high temperatures" 
AS> because steam does not exist at low temperatures, but becomes water

AS> or ice? 

Of course. The only nits I have a policy against picking are those 
that involve spelling and punctuation (unless Fred Rice is involved, 
as he's currently under a death sentence _fatwa_ for hideous and 
persistent misspellings). 

AS> It's a good thing you AREN'T part of the teaching profession, 
AS> Robert. 

I do privately tutor, with no complaints. You're just a whiny moron. 


--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  coincidence none
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:16
EID:1e63 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24585
TID: GE/2 1.2
RV> Not sure about the proton charge but to the electron charge/mass, 
RV> if I'm reading and understanding the material correctly, there 
RV> can be a difference in the charge/mass of the electron to electron 
RC> .... smacking heads and the resulting particles+energy thereof. 

I'm sorry, but I can't make heads or tails out of that. 











--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  DUH!
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:17
EID:5409 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24586
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>>> Argument ad hominem. 
RC>> Nothing is being *argued* there. 
AS>> How true. Instead you are descending to petty name-calling. 

RC> That's better. Calling my disgusted dismissal of you an 
RC> "argument ad hominem" was *quite* inaccurate. 

AS> Too bad. Since of course, debate is the lifeblood of this echo. 

I have nothing against debating you, Al, should you provide something 
of substance to debate. Nor do I have anything against calling you 
"Idiot" on those occasions when you behave as an idiot. 

AS> Instead, accepting that you are a petty name-caller sums you 
AS> up quite well. 

Though incompletely.  



RC>> The above says nothing about "domain theory" helping to define 
RC>> a sample space. Try reading with better comprehension, Dolt. 

AS>> Yes, it did, Robert. 

RC> ROFL! Then why did you erase the quote, Al? Stooping to 
RC> prevarication? I never referred to any "domain theory" 
RC> whatsoever, Drooling Idiot. 

AS> "The possibility of domains"? Does that make it better now? 

Substituting one lie for another is no improvement, Al. You should 
be ashamed of yourself.  



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  lies or just idiocy?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:18
EID:c929 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24587
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> Oh...then in what sense did you mean..that the domain idea helped 
AS>> define the sample sense... 

RC> Try quoting my exact words, Dolt. 
RC> I will happily defend what I said, but you can go fuck your strawman.


AS> I wonder how many times I quoted that to you? Over and over? 

By all means, feel free to quote my saying -- as you falsely assert 
above -- "that the domain idea helped define the sample space." 

Note that this isn't it: 

RC>> Yet their logical possibility helps to define the probabilistic 
RC>> sample space. 

*Possibilities* are what help to define a particular sample space. 


AS> Ah, well...anyway, there are your words. 

Yes, and you will note that there is nothing about any "domain idea" 
mentioned whatsoever. 

Give it up, Al. 

You won't get away with lies or eggregious misrepresentations here. 








--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  freedom from dogma
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:19
EID:5fe7 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24588
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> Oddly enough in most books of cosmology, none of them cite an 
AS>> explicit sample space for other matters of probability, like 
AS>> "many worlds". I wonder why? 

RC> Because "many worlds" is not a matter of probability. Or does it 
RC> come with a probability distribution included? I'm sure you could 
RC> make one up if you thought it might support your religious dogma. 

AS> You sure? 

Indeed. "Many worlds" is a cosmological notion, and related to one 
interpretation of quantum mechanics. (Hi, John!) 

AS> (From the Everett FAQ) 
AS> Q23 How do probabilities emerge within many-worlds? 

This is a question about probability WITHIN a "many worlds" concept. 


[Al's mindless quotation snipped] 

You should really think about these things before mindlessly copying 
them. Just quoting something without understanding it does not 
bolster your position, Al. Rather, it makes you look more and more 
like the Babbling Bullshitter that you are. 

Let me know if and when you are willing to exert some real thought 
on the subject matter, and then get back to me. 

The Sample Space Challenge will always be here waiting for you, 
in case one day you decide to tackle it. So long as you keep making 
pathetic excuses instead of facing it squarely, you'll get nowhere. 



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  JUNK EMAIL
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:20
EID:3ea1 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c24589
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> I access Fido only from home, but I read (and reply to) my internet

RC> email wherever I might happen to be at the time. It is thoughtlessly

RC> presumptuous to assume that some "simple operation" in whatever 
RC> situation YOU are accustomed to must reflect the reality of OTHER 
RC> people's situations which you know nothing about. 

AS> He. 
AS> Hehehehehehe. 
AS> Hahahahaaahahaahaaha!!!!! 
AS> BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
AS> Oh, Robert (giggle) it was SUCh a great burden (guffaw!) for you 
AS> to do so (snicker) since you bothered to REPLY to it (rolling on 
AS> the floor) not only in private email but (pounding floor) HERE IN 
AS> FIDONET IN THIS VERY THREAD!!!(well, DUH...) 

After returning home to St. Pete and downloading my email here, yes. 
I don't have remote access to my system when I'm out of town, though. 


AS> And you have the NERVE to call OTHERS "dolt", "fool" and other 
AS> insults?  Or did you think no one would NOTICE this odd 
AS> contradiction? 

Please identify what you believe to be a contradiction, unless you 
have since come to your senses. 


AS> Robert. If you hadn't mentioned it, nobody here would even KNOW 
AS> there was any email between us. 

And that's when you went into "hurt little puppydog" mode, as Judith 
predicted so well.  



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  "the" equation
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:21
EID:7969 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2458a
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Do you know the differences between definite and indefinite articles?


AS> Robert. 
AS> I refuse to argue about the word "the". 

Especially after you refer to "the" relativity equation, as if there 
were some such unique entity. No suprise there, Al. Babbling bullshit 
and mindless quotations cannot withstand even the minutest scrutiny. 


AS> There are some debates so silly even _I_ won't descend into. 
AS> But not you, seemingly... 

I wouldn't dream of refusing to descend into debate with you, Al. 



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  misplaced arrogance
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:22
EID:6e55 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2458b
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> I casually dismiss your babbling bullshit as being more often 
RC> than not a load of misrepresentations and dogmatism. 


AS> Ah. Then you DO accept that Hawking said that in most cases, no 
AS> stars or galaxies would form, and "life would not exist"? 

Not on your mere say so, and you've already had the qualifications 
pointed out to you, which by ignoring you end up misrepresenting him. 
"Life as we know it" (which is what he is talking about) does not 
mean any and all possible life, nor does it mean any and all possible 
"intelligent life" (as you have claimed here). 

So when are you going to provide something of substance to calculate 
possibilites, which -- please note -- requires a valid sample space? 



--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Nominations . . .
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:23
EID:c9ca 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2458c
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Are you still trying to pass off that dirt smudge as a 
RC> *beard*? 

DW> I'm not /trying/ to do anything. 

Maybe that's why you keep getting stuck dating Baptists. 


DW> It is a beard, whether you call it one or not. 

What I call it doesn't matter as much as whether it can pass 
the "washing your face" test. 





--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  .
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:24
EID:0543 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2458d
TID: GE/2 1.2
On (14 Dec 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Ronald Vass... 

AS> Would a Von Neumann machine be "alive"? I suspect it would 
AS> come awfully close. 

Generally, living organisms *are* Von Neumann machines. 











--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Happy Hitler God
|Date: 16 Dec 96  01:04:25
EID:bba2 21900880
MSGID: 1:3603/210 09c2458e
TID: GE/2 1.2
On (14 Dec 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Roger Hunter... 

AS> Now I'm going to ask an honest question of all the nonbelievers 
AS> in the echo; what would your opinion be of a hypothetical 
AS> being who gave Adolf Hitler an eternity of bliss 

Is this the same hypothetical being who did nothing while millions 
were killed, knowing that they would be tortured and killed, acting 
as an accessory before the fact? 

I wouldn't be suprised by ANYTHING that sort of hypothetical being 
might do. 





--- PPoint 2.00 / QWK

--- InterMail+GE/2+PCB/2
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Quentin Fai
|To:   John Musselwhite
|Sub:  Re: Absolute Bigotry!
|Date: 15 Dec 96  07:53:36
EID:1e4c 218f3ea0
PID: SX 4.3P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 4310e3b7
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 32b184df
TID: GE/32 1.2
While puffing on a 'Fropstick, I felt John utter:

JM>   Mendel's laws deal with heredity. His second principle shows
JM>   how evolution is probable, but then you aren't familiar with
JM>   the Law of Independent Assortment (let alone the law of
JM>   segregation), are you?

I highly doubt that this guy's even familiar with the law of gravity.

... MARINE: Muscles Are Required, Intelligence Not Expected!
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin:  The TERMINAL BBS  (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 358/1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Chris Green
|Sub:  dandy
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:14:01
EID:6ba4 219119c0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 91040585
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 15 Dec 96 12:13am, CHRIS GREEN wrote to RICHARD SMITH:


RS>> Who was designated to have been at blame in Bopal?


CG> One of your chemical giants, can't remember the name - it'll be easily
CG> found in one of your legal echoes.

Union Carbide.


... Tagline Gene Sequenced! ...AGTAGTAGTAGTAGTA...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1439
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 261/1137 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Chris Green
|Sub:  lowland?
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:14:02
EID:da76 219119c0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 910405fc
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>> Pardon?  Is that "flat" or "lowland"?  And note that you'd
CJ>> orginally specified "flat, lowland"--IOW, both flat _and_ lowland.
CJ>> Flatness does not depend on height:  the most level extensive land

CG> You are correct I was using the definition for 'lowland' and hence
CG> 'lowlander'.

CG> Forgot, that you would not be aware of the English vernacular for 'flat'
CG> which is actually means 'hilly'.  :-)

You're kidding!  Where are the building inspectors during
apartment construction?  8-)


... The capital of Arcadia was Megalopolis.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1440
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 261/1137 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Alan Hess
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  20:06:02
EID:d9e2 2190a0c0
Whilst masticating on , Dan Ceppa (1:105/40.667)
wrote to Alan Hess:

MG>> So, where is your evidence for god?  Present it and we will
MG>> discuss it, but I don't give you much hope.

AH>> The 1969 Mets and the 1969 Jets.  Only a suupernatural power 
AH>> could have caused them to win.

DC> Not that I disagree (and will add the 1980 US Hockey Team to the list!)
but 
DC> I think that the Jets won the Stupor Bowl in 1967.  IIRC, it was Stupor

DC> Bowl III.  

It was, and the 1969 Jets, with the aid of the holy spook, beat my Baltimore
Colts.

--- MsgedSQ/2 3.35
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 261/1000 1137 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sally Springett
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  Execute Her ? [2/2]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  06:58:00
EID:f2a3 21903740
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 4a3229c2
SS> I was also treated in Renfrew once.

DH> You visit nice places.

Since 1946 I have spent at least a few weeks of every year in a
village about 40 miles southwest of Renfrew called Matawatchan. My
father was a schoolteacher who bought a farm there so he could spend
his summers fishing. A local friend once said of our farm that "A
grasshopper would have to take his lunch to cross it." 

In that time the village has changed from a farming community
without electricity into a community with all mod cons largely made
up of retired people (many of whom I went to school with who spent
their working lives elsewhere).

In the 40s there were 125 working farms, today there are three (of
which two are run by ancients whose farms will not outlive them).
The former farms are returning to forest. The hard-working souls
who cleared the land wouldn't recognize the place. It has been
fascinating to watch.

---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves

--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 2613/313 5 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sally Springett
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  christianity: thy nam
|Date: 16 Dec 96  21:15:00
EID:b254 2190a9e0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 91a678dd
SS> Is the _Flatworm Journal_ still being published?

CJ> I think you're thinking of _The Wormrunner's Journal_, which
CJ> was a source of great science humor. The bad news is that it
CJ> deceased; the good news is that its niche was taken by _The
CJ> Journal of Irreproducible Results_.  I do not know if the
CJ> latter is still publishing.

Thank you, I'm quite sure you're right. I hadn't seen a copy in more
than 30 years but I remember it fondly. _The Journal of
Irreproducible Results_ sounds wonderful. Is it on the net?


... If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves

--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 2613/313 5 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sally Springett
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  grrr
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:03:00
EID:c435 2190b060
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ d671c6e1
EM> I hurried myself to the local Dumbshit Redneck Accoutrement
EM> Shoppe, where I procured the medium-sized chrome-plated-naked-
EM> centerfold silhouette.

JH> I've always wondered what kind of person bought those
JH> things...

EM> But when I walked in the place, I felt half a dozen uneasy
EM> stares on the back of my head, and I felt about as awkward as
EM> if I'd just walked into a Frederick's of Hollywood store. Then
EM> I realized what made me so conspicuous. They'd evidently never
EM> seen anyone with a neck before.

That woud be a problem. Don't they have an, er, _appliance_ you can
wear? 



... Mobius strippers never show their backsides.
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves

--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 2613/313 5 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Sally Springett
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:26:00
EID:cb15 2190b340
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ ec3ce39f
MH> I'm struck by the way science has made God smaller and
MH> smaller.

Science has had no effect upon your God. If your God seems smaller
to you it is caused by a change in _your_ perception.

Knowledge, on the other hand, has allowed some people to live quiet
lives without recourse to the fantastic explanations for the world
of a nomadic middle eastern people.

---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves

--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 2613/313 5 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Karen Davis
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  Dr. Seuss Purity Test
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:12:30
EID:c5f9 21909180
MSGID: 1:207/212 7c11cfb8
On (09 Dec 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Chris Green...


CG> Actually I don't have any testicles; which ought to please the
CG> Over-Population-Theists! :-)

JB> Only if you also have no ovaries. 

I was born without either, do I count?


... Do not cuss, holler, pee or throw up in public places.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 207/212 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Karen Davis
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  Can't do constants
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:12:24
EID:aa03 21909180
MSGID: 1:207/212 54a659b7
On (12 Dec 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Al Schroeder...

AS> Give me your address, I will send you a diskette with Qedit on it.

JB> Isn't QEdit a commercial program?

Nope. Shareware.


... A library is an arsenal of liberty.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 207/212 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Karen Davis
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  textbooks?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:12:18
EID:fc2d 21909180
MSGID: 1:207/212 c117fe06
On (14 Dec 96) Ed Mills wrote to Katherine Wintersnight...

KW> How about a few remarks about a national icon who yearns to be a used
KW> tampon?

EM>          Oh dang, you're going to have to refresh my memory. Was it
EM> Sid          Vicious or somebody like that?

Prince Charles, as I recall.


... I'm more humble than you are!!!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 207/212 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  wisdom
|Date: 15 Dec 96  21:19:10
EID:6214 218faa60
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 5c82149b
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32b0901c
On (13 Dec 96) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...

RS> On 28-07-96 at 11:23, JIM STAAL wrote to DAN CEPPA:

JS> On (26 Jul 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...

JS>  DC> ... Lon S. Mabon is Jimmy Staal's intellectual persona, god forbid.

JS> A post from the dishonorable Ceppa that actually has any truth in it...

JS> ... So...What's yer point!?

RS> So tell us about what you really think about gay people, as
RS> that's a major sexual hangup of your dishonorable mentor... :)

I have. You choose to disregard that and just join in the other bigots
on this echo and ridicule me at will. I guess that is your business.

RS> Do you think they should be incarcerated?

Nah.

RS> Tortured?

A little...if they like it. ;)

RS> Killed?

Wha for?

RS> Tattooed?

Again, if they like it...

RS> Castrated?

EAUW!

RS> Anything else reprehensible that you'd like to do to other humans
RS> who aren't of the same sexuality as you are?

Treat them as humans?


... Be not faithless, but believing. - John 20:27

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Lies...
|Date: 15 Dec 96  21:21:47
EID:4b7c 218faaa0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 791a2a42
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32b215ac
On (14 Dec 96) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...

RS> Sunday July 28 1996 11:21, Jim Staal wrote to Dan Ceppa:

JS> You just don't get it, do you, Ceppa? Christ _satisfied_ all the
JS> demands of the law. He took care of it. 


RS> So it was a bug fix?

No, it was God's plan.

RS> How does this fare in contradiction to the bible's claim that
RS> "God never changes" nor his laws?

He never changes. Nor do his laws.

RS> Or is this an incovenience to your obvious breaking of Levitical
RS> law that you put down to being as "unimportant"?

Not at all.


... Blue Wave - World Tour - 19@DY@

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  STAAL WANTS TO KNOW.
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:46:24
EID:5dd0 219095c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 35af4d2f
On (14 Dec 96) Roger Hunter wrote to Jim Staal...

-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Roger Hunter <=-

RH> Oh Hell no. But it made a good story. Only an idiot would have taken
RH> it as true.

RH> Sorta like the bible....

JS> Oh, so you are saying that Herr Doktor Leipzig is a liar!?

RH> No, I'm saying the bible is a liar.


in my unique good nature, I was overlooking that. :)

... Someday we'll look back on this and shudder!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  fundy clown
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:46:49
EID:8526 219095c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 e365ee15
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ae8fa386
On (14 Dec 96) Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Staal...

JS> Ha! I laugh you to scorn!
ML> Ha! We laugh at your idiocy.
JS> A bit of an MPD problem, Herr Doktor?

dc> Wrong, Jimbo.  I join Marty in his laughter at your idiocy.

FR> Me too.  I'm laughing at you too, Jim.

et tu, brut'e????? I never would have thought it of you!

... Blue Wave is to QWK as AmigaDOS is to MS-DOS.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Jesus needed...
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:47:49
EID:62c7 219095e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 30dfee6b
REPLY: 1:3603/210 09694947
On (15 Dec 96) ROBERT CURRY wrote to Jim Staal...

RC> with: Karen Davis

RC>  JS>>> Karen, as God the father is spirit, He would neither have
RC>  JS>>> nor have need of a penis. As Jesus Christ is God in the flesh,
RC>  JS>>> He certainly had need for and indeed did possess one.

RC>  RC>> And what, pray tell, do you believe he "had need" of one for?
RC>  JS>> How about discharging urine?

RC> No penis is required for half the human species to do that.
RC> Try again.

JS> Try checking out the personal pronoun used by the person above?

RC> So why 'he' and not 'she' in the first place?

Because, silly: Jesus Christ was a _man_, much like you and me.

... I will hunt you down and flog you with wet tissues...

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  fundy clown
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:48:44
EID:0d1c 21909600
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 12a955ff
REPLY: 1:3603/210 09694948
On (15 Dec 96) ROBERT CURRY wrote to Jim Staal...

RC>  JS>> The richest man I know (Bloemhof, of Redlands, CA) has millions
RC>  JS>> and _shops_ gas stations for the most inexpensive gasoline!

RC> Do you object? If so, *why*?

JS> I do not object. If the guy wants to be such an anal retentive
JS> a**hole, that is his biz.

RC> Do you have something against people who like to shop for the best
RC> deal they can get?

Nope. Just typical 'rich man' attitude. That is how the sucker got the
way he is.

JS> The point was, Herr Doktor is _so_ steenking rich he doesn't
JS> _need_ to rip off the pizza dude.

RC> Nor did he, Milk Dud. Your petty, mendacious accusations are quite
RC> ridiculous even for you.

Whatever. The dude said it.

RC> I wouldn't be so hasty to assume that all the religious participants
RC> here are as inattentive and as full of shit as you are acting about
RC> the pizza anecdote, Jimbozo. You made a mistake, and that's that.

JS> Nah. He said it, I believed him.

RC> Quote what he said, Liar.

RC> All of it.

I'm not lying. He is not denying it. He said it. I do not archive.


... In fact officer, factor in the earth's rotation and we're all speeding.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  jesus needed...
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:49:57
EID:7dfb 21909620
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 64e77473
REPLY: 1:207/212      792aeed2
On (15 Dec 96) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...

KD> On (09 Dec 96) Jim Staal wrote to Curtis Johnson...

JS> you believe _she_ 'had need' of one for.' _She_ wouldn't need a penis
JS> to rid _her_ body of same. Jesus Christ was a male human. As such, He
JS> did
JS> indeed need a penis to discharge urine.

KD> And why did he need to be a male human?

Because He was the Son of God, fer crying out loud. If he was the
daughter of God, He would have had one of those cute 'taco' thingies.

... Don Alt is the Chairman of the Blue Wave Suggestion Committee of one.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  giggle snot
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:51:29
EID:3cd4 21909660
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 2c354642
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 0070ef7f
On (14 Dec 96) David Worrell wrote to All...

DW> From the Sydney Morning Herald:

DW> Jews want action on computer racism

DW> By JON CASIMIR

DW> A Sydney man who runs a computer bulletin board which disseminates
DW> anti-Jewish and anti-Catholic material says that it is not racist.

'Anti' in what manner?

... Attention: Unattended children will be sold as slaves.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  more babbling email
|Date: 16 Dec 96  18:53:04
EID:da4b 219096a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 dd25e9d0
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32b49db0
On (15 Dec 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Curtis Johnson...

CJ> But my opinion of your character has just plummeted greatly.
CJ> What the fuck is your compulsion to repeat this shit!
CJ> (Really, Al, for the sake of your "soul" ask yourself: why does
CJ> this repeatedly happen to you when it does not to, for example,
CJ> Jim Staal?)

AS>  With all due respect to Jim, I would not trade posts with him.

What's up here, Al, and what did I miss? And what did I do to deserve
this?

... Blue Wave: Now 100% QWK Compatible! More bang for your bucks!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DOUG SCHWANDT
|Sub:  Still waiting, Doug
|Date: 16 Dec 96  09:52:00
EID:68df 21904e80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Doug Schwandt <=-

>CG> Well using your own criteria you should ALSO be saying
>CG> the 'mythology of God', since you demand proof of
>CG> science, it is only fair to apply the same set of
>CG> standards to your own 'faith'. :-)

DS> Not necessarily. Evolutionists have felt very free to
DS> unilaterally apply the standard that religion is a myth
DS> for DECADES.

Since most "evolutionists" believe in at least one god 
(the majority of those being Christians), your assertion 
is not cogent. Just because they acknowledge the fact that 
evolution occured and occurs does not mitigate their 
religious beliefs. Evolution and Evolutionary Theory has
nothing to say about religion, nor the existance of gods.

But then, you knew that. Therefore you spoke a falsehood,
knowing fully well that it was a falsehood.  Don't you
know that your paper idol has warned you against that?
Hrere, let me help you:

JOB CHAPTER 13

4 But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no 
value. 5 O that ye would altogether hold your peace! and 
it should be your wisdom. 6 Hear now my reasoning, and 
hearken to the pleadings of my lips. 7 Will ye speak 
wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him? 8 Will ye 
accept his person? will ye contend for God? 9 Is it good 
that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh 
another, do ye so mock him? 10 He will surely reprove you, 
if ye do secretly accept persons. 11 Shall not his 
excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you? 
12 Your remembrances are like unto ashes, your bodies to 
bodies of clay.

There. That's better. Go and sin less, Doug.


... Anything that can be laughed out of this world ought not to stay in
it
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub:  Billyboy has his head...
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:30:00
EID:ac8c 219073c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
... up his ass. 

-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Bill Wolff <=-

>BW> But instead of answering it intelligently. You throw
>BW> a fit like a little child.

Does anyone else. Think that Billyboy here. Is the. One
who is acting like. A child throwing a temper-tantrum?

ML> Hardly. I responded in a way that I knew even a
ML> blightered asshole like you could understand.
ML> Further, if you want to be spoon-fed, go ask you
ML> keeper; instead of begging your betters to
ML> explain all that you don't and can't understand.

I just received three messages from the clueless little
fundy shit (multi-redundant). In each, his ONLY reply
to every other statement of fact I uttered was on the
level of "dick breath," "shit head," and "ass hole."
His method of "argument" reminds me of first grade when
the teacher was out of the room.

... Pious ignorance always regards intelligence as a kind of blasphemy.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub:  Billyboy has his head...
|Date: 16 Dec 96  10:17:00
EID:ac8c 21905220
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
... up his ass (as usual).

-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Bill Wolff <=-

>BW> In your dreams Marty. Nobody ever produced a quote
>BW> from me where I called Carl Sagan a creationist.

ML> Odd, I seem to recall that David Rice, Doc Goldberg and
ML> Dan Ceppa have done just that a number of times.

Only fifteen or twenty times.

ML> I guess with your blinders on so tight, you just keep
ML> missing those damning posts. Don't blame us for your
ML> tunnel vision and lack of foresight.

As you have no doubt observed, Fundies of all stripes
have vision problems. Liar Wolff here can't seem to see
any of the score of posts quoting him attempting to paint
Prof. Carl Sagan as a Creationist (or in Liar Wolff's
vernacular, a "creationists"). Comrad Staal can't seem
to see any of the tens of scores of messages pointing
out, in infinitesimally fine detail, some of the vast
numbers of self-contradictions in his paper idol, the
Bible.

All Fundy cults should be required to carry vision care
insurance for their v\i\c\t\m\s\ members.


... Pious ignorance always regards intelligence as a kind of blasphemy.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub:  Goodbye
|Date: 16 Dec 96  10:26:00
EID:d384 21905340
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Dan Ceppa <=-

SM> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!"   [d&rg]
JH> GOURDS! GOURDS!  SQUASH HIM!
DC> GARRANDS!  GARRANDS!  SHOOT HIM!
ML> GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
EV> GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
ML> GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
JH> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
ML> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
DC> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
ML> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
DC> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
ML> GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!

GRACCHUS! GRACCHUS! REFORM HIM!
GRAFTER! GRAFTER! CON HIM!
GRAHAM! GRAHAM! CRACKER HIM!


... Blasphemy is what an old mistake says of a newly discovered truth.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub:  YOUR DAILY XENU, WARRIOR
|Date: 16 Dec 96  11:15:00
EID:8c2a 219059e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Fredric Rice <=-

>FR> Man, if I had as little ethics and morals as 
>FR> $cientologists and Christian clergy, I could
>FR> make a good living out of bilking the ignorant
>FR> and the gullible and the afraid.  I've got
>FR> the emotional dispensation for being quite
>FR> successful at it, I'm told.

It cannot be all that hard. El Wrong Hubbard was an 
illiterate, impotent dope-fiend, discharged from the Navy 
for being "unfit for any duty," who dabbled in black magic 
with Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley, and look at the 
hundreds of millions of dollars his ignorant, brain-dead 
follows threw at him.

ML> I find it fascinating that our resident doublewide 
ML> dwelling schizoid xenophobic bigot[...]

Hey! That's not very nice!

ML> [...] tries (in a failed attempt, as is his wont) to 
ML> take me to task over a little anecdote I touched on
ML> a while back about the family mastiff scaring the
ML> liquid Jesus out of a pizza delivery man.

And besides: the dog needed the exercise. So did the
pizza delivery boy....

ML> He rants and raves how "sombees" fatten their wallets 
ML> at the expense of the less fortunate (you can see how
ML> he himself has trashed this way in the past [and
ML> probably continuing]). Strange that he fails to
ML> acknowledge the remainder of that anecdote where
ML> the delivery boy is paid in full with a fat tip
ML> to boot. But I digress.

A still-hot pizza is worth a $10 or $15 tip. Maybe Herr 
Comrad Staal is slightly jealous because all he ever gets 
is an unsigned, anonymous IOU.

ML> He claims to be a preacher, minister or other form of 
ML> religionoid bloodsucker.

Poetry, that.

ML> He's the one that parasitizes the "less fortunate" (in 
ML> this case, the mentally disadvantaged members of his 
ML> flock) and actually has a sole cause for existence by
ML> the usurption of funds under false pretenses ("Give
ML> your free will gift to God"). Odd that it ends up
ML> fattening his threadbare wallet. And does he pay
ML> them back or return ANY tangible service for these
ML> funds? A resounding NO!

Religion is the largest industry in the world, and it 
provides no tangible service; trades in no tangible goods. 
Yet it is a milti-billion dollar industry. In every other 
endeavor, this would be called "fraud."

ML> And this asshole has the unmitigated temerity to try 
ML> and besmirch my morals.

Morals? WHAT morals?! For the most part, atheists do
no good things! Just ask Jesse Krist Jones.... On
second thought, don't bother: he never answers.

ML> The next time Jimbozo says a fucking thing about my 
ML> "stealing from the less fortunate", I'll gently, and
ML> in my own inimitable 4x4 upside the head, manner
ML> remind him of his blatant ectoparasitism.

My working just one day at my job (blood chemistry and 
diagnostics) does far more to aid the Human Condition 
(society) than one thousand years of prayer has ever
done. If preachers would burn their occult paraphanilia
(Bibles, Holy Tracts(tm), devotionals, cardboard cut-
outs, beads and rattles) and GET A GODDAMNED JOB, the
nation would be far better off.

Via con Goat.


... Pickup line: You're under arrest! Place your ankles behind your ears.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  moron for Jesus
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:34:00
EID:4ebd 21907440
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Laurie Appleton <=-

RC> Are you trying to be a moron for Jesus in some twisted effort 
RC> to discredit Christians of all sorts by association? 

Yes, he is, and yes, he is.

... Pious ignorance always regards intelligence as a kind of blasphemy.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   ALAN HESS
|Sub:  Isaiah 7:17/Matthew 1:2
|Date: 16 Dec 96  12:51:00
EID:7ec5 21906660
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Alan Hess to Leonard Bernier <=-

>LB> PROPHECY[sic]: - The Messiah shall be called Immanuel 
>LB> (God[sic] with us).

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the messiah would 
be called "Immanuel." The boy in question (Isa 7:14, which 
the asshole tried to quote above) was not named "Immanuel."
He was named Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

Indeed, no where in the Bible is the name used except once 
by the authors of Isaiah themselves, and once by the 
authors of Matthew. Nowhere is Jesus called "Immanuel."

AH> That's exactly what Hitler and the Nazis said! "Gott 
AH> mit uns."

>LB> Therefore the Lord[sic] Himself[sic] will give you
>LB> a sign: Behold, the virgin shall

The verse reads: "Behold, this maiden HAS conceived and
IS with child," i.e. the authors of Isaiah (which is an 
anonymous work) used the past-tense. The first author of 
Isaiah made it a sure thing by first raping the girl.

What's even more amusing is that the birth of this boy 
Maher-shalal-hash-baz was not a prophesy: the little shit 
was merely a TIME BOUNDRY between when the first author of 
Isaiah said Ahaz would prevail and when Ahaz actually would 
prevail. In other words, when Ahaz asked when the 
beseiging armies would fail, the first author of Isaiah
said in effect "before thirteen years from now."

Even MORE amusing is that the "prophesy" failed utterly: 
the beseiging armies succeeded; Ahaz fell--- exactly the 
opposite of what the first author of Isaiah "prophesied." 
For a "prophet of god," he was abysmally lacking in 
talent; event that stupid fraud Jean Dixon could have 
done better.

AH> That's "maiden", not "virgin."

That's what happens when Greeks pretend to be Hebrew.


... "Be fuckers and multiply...." -- Genesis 1:22 (paraphrased)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   ANDREW MASTEN
|Sub:  Flat Earth Town
|Date: 16 Dec 96  12:55:00
EID:0e02 219066e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Jason Harmon <=-

>>AM> You just think that God[sic] is some miserable
>>AM> tyrant who wants all to be miserable. Thats[sic]
>>AM> just a lie, God[sic] wants prosperity, peace
>>AM> and joy for all.

Not to mention unsuccored torture and misery for eternity 
for billions of souls. Nice god you have there.

>JH> ...except for those who refuse to bow down and 
>JH> worship him. For those, he wants misfortune,
>JH> destruction, sadness, and pain.
>JH> Real fun guy.

AM> No, even as Christ was being crucified he asked for 
AM> mercy on the soldiers.

Non sequitur. He was talking about your demonic god, not 
about your "Christ" plaything.


... Pious ignorance always regards intelligence as a kind of blasphemy.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   ANDREW MASTEN
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 16 Dec 96  13:07:00
EID:ee83 219068e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to David Rice <=-

>>AM> We have always observed events to have causes.

>DR> The "first cause" prattle invokes a time =BEFORE=
>DR> there was cause-and-effect, i.e. before the Big Bang.
>DR> How can one observe an event that had no time to
>DR> take place in?

AM> Only something or someone outside of the realm of time.

Since the Big Bang defines time, there is no such thing as 
an "outside." This has already been explained to you: why
do you keep asserting a known false hypothesis?

>>AM> So the question is simple, are we here by a cause or
>>AM> not?

>DR> "We?" Al was discussing the formation of the 
>DR> universe, not "we" as in us human beings. "We"
>DR> most certainly =ARE= here by causes. The universe
>DR> probably was not, ergo no "first cause."

AM> What make[sic] you think the universe is a uncaused 
AM> event?

Because the universe is all there is; in order for it to 
be "caused," something would have to previously exist to 
"cause" it--- a paradox, thus a false hypothesis. If it 
was "caused," it would have to be the result of an event; 
since time probably did not exist "before" the Big Bang, 
no events were possible--- another paradox, thus also a 
false hypothesis. Any hypothesis that yields a paradox
must perforce be false, and must be restated or discarded.

>>>DR> Why BELIEVE anything? Belief leads to stagnant
>>>DR> ignorance.

>>AM> Your answer is a non-sequitor. To believe in nothing
>>AM> is still a belief.

>DR> Your belief that lack of a belief is a belief is
>DR> intelliectually bankrupt.

AM> Maybe so, but I defend my right to say it!

No one is interested in revoking that right. Go ahead and 
say every silly thing that pops into that headthing of 
yours.

So. Your assignment now is:

1) demonstrate there was anything "before" the
Big Bang.

2) demonstrate that there was a "before the Big
Bang."

3) go to the nearest acredited college or university
and have someone teach you about the Big Bang.

4) visit the COBE web site on the internet to
discover the latest facts confirming the Big Bang
theory as valid.

5) produce your gods, if you have any.


... Blasphemy is what an old mistake says of a newly discovered truth.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAN CEPPA
|Sub:  Steve Winter's response
|Date: 16 Dec 96  13:15:00
EID:36b7 219069e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Doug Lee <=-

>DL> I will now address some of the issues in his
>DL> malicious "Steve Winter FAQ, v 1.7:  

DC> Steve 'I curse ya in the nay-im of the Lawwwrd' Winters?
DC> Who gives a rat's ass about him, let alone what someone
DC> says about him?

I sent the Steve Winter WAV file to the author of the FAQ.
He was happy to receive it, and he said he would keep it
as evidence if ever Steve's threats of law suit are
enacted.

Steve just LOVES to pretend to be a victim. I dount he
actually believe he is the one being harassed, and not
the one doing the harassing.

... "I'm an agnostic shit for brains!" - Bill Wolff
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAN CEPPA
|Sub:  heartless
|Date: 16 Dec 96  13:37:00
EID:96b9 21906ca0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Curtis Johnson <=-

>>DC> ... Saddam Hussein still has a job...do you?

>CJ> Keeping Syria, Iran, and Saudia Arabia in check.

And genociting the Kurds.

DC> Which, again, is nothing more than a political move.
DC> There is absolutely no reason that the allies could
DC> not have forced an unconditional surrender of Iraq.

But then who would the USA have put in his place? And
think of what it would have taken to occupy Iraq: massive
US troops, constant threats against those troops. We
would have another Ireland.

... A lemming on full afterburners. -- Marty Leipzig
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAN CEPPA
|Sub:  Hey babe!
|Date: 16 Dec 96  13:53:00
EID:ae5f 21906ea0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Sue Armstrong <=-

DC> Well, I'm still looking for a bigger boat.
DC> Maybe soon, I hope!

Got 3/4 million dollars or more to spend? Get
a Nautor Swan 47.

The person I sub-rent a marina end-tie from is
a millionaire. Now and then he comes down to the
boat and asks me what I've done to it reciently.
He keeps saying "Why don't you buy xxxxxx" where
"xxxxxx" is one of dozens of extremely expensive
devices such as wind-power generator, wind vane
self-stearing, 1000-watt power inverter, super
dooper sound system, water maker, coffee pot,
and other only-dreamed-of stuff. Last Saturday
he wondered why I "didn't want" a wind-power
generator, since one is "only $1,300 or so."
Yikes. He's a nice person, but he doesn't
understand that I live in abject poverty. :-)

His boat is a Fleming 55 power boat, with =TWO=
central heating and cooling systems, fullsize
refrigerator, GPS, two radars, blah blah and
blah blah blah. Oh, and it's for sale if you're
interested....


... I'm having a hard time swallowing this. Can I have a dogma bag?
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   KAREN DAVIS
|Sub:  aska and ye shall rec
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:42:00
EID:0b6f 21907540
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Sally Springett <=-

>SS> Culture may bear on reactions but pain is pain. While 
>SS> it is certainly true that some cultures don't give a
>SS> damn about the discomfort of women, I don't personally
>SS> find that attitude charming.

Western "culture" LIKES seeing women in pain. It's their
Christian heritage.

KD> I think the way we have women position themselves 
KD> during childbirth is partially the issue. Women
KD> were not meant to lay in stirrups to push the
KD> baby out.

The "proper" way is to squat on her heels, with knees far 
apart, and dump the baby on the ground, preferably head 
first.

I like the Murphy Brown episode where Murphy is at the 
hospital with Miles and others. Murphy was standing in the 
hallway. She leaned against a wall and moaned in pain. 
Miles did a flying leap under her legs, hands up to catch 
the baby. I laughed so hard my throat hurt.


... Blasphemy is the bulwark of religious rejudice.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   LEE WOOFENDEN
|Sub:  Why don't we see God[sic]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:09:00
EID:8808 21907120
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Lee Woofenden to All <=-

LW> Here's something to add to the discussion about why
LW> we don't usually see God[sic].

Don't "usually?!" Since when has anyone seen gods,
"non-usually" or otherwise?

... Blasphemy is the breastplate of the heartless.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   JIM STAAL
|Sub:  Literally Seaking
|Date: 16 Dec 96  14:23:00
EID:2dbd 219072e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-

>>> On (03 Dec 96) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
>> On (01 Dec 96) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...

>>>>JS> The Creator[SIC] is God[SIC], the Father[SIC].
>>>>JS> He created the female... from the male.

What would a god require a penis for? Isn't god an "it?"

>>>KD> The evidence of biology states otherwise. Female
>>>KD> is the basic model.

>>JS> Evidence?

>ML> Embryology.

Hi Bro' James. Alas, Karen and Marty are, as usual, 
correct: the male is a modification of the female of the 
species. During gestation, every fetus starts out female. 
If there is enough testosterone (and other) hormones, the 
fetus then turns male: if not, it remains female. This may 
be a feature of pre-human pathenogenisis. The male form is 
an evolutionary appendum to increase genetic variability 
through recombination via sexual reproduction: it wasn't 
always that way.

Ask Jimmy Swaggart about sexual reproduction. Hell, better 
yet ask Debbie--- she's the more intelligent one.


... "I'm an agnostic shit for brains!" - Bill Wolff
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   JEFF MARCHIZI
|Sub:  Euthanasia
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:58:00
EID:75ca 21907f40
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jeff Marchizi to All... 

JM> How does the Catholic Church view the topic of Euthanasia? 

When the Catholics are doing the killing, in large numbers,
they approve; when it's someone else doing the killing, in
onesies and twosies, they disapprove.

... Blasphemy is what an old mistake says of a newly discovered truth.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "I wish life could be Swedish magazines." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Chris Green
|Sub:  fisticuffs
|Date: 17 Dec 96  02:56:00
EID:7224 21911700
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02b5dac6
REPLY: 2:250/210.0 32b4402b
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
On , you wrote me:

CG>> Which meant that at 1774 English prices the value was
CG>> 16,800 pounds; which converts to 161 million pounds.

DW>> We will be more than happy to let you have 161 million
DW>> pounds worth of ICBMs in return. Just let us know when you
DW>> want them - delivery promised within 10 minutes of the
DW>> receipt of your order.

CG> A similar response was sent to the UK Parliament in 1776;
CG> despite 220 years having passed, you seem to be firmly 
CG> stuck in the 18th century!
CG> :-)

Ungrateful limey bastards... we offer payment, and you quibble over details
:).

--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  Dawkins
|Date: 17 Dec 96  02:59:00
EID:6f1d 21911760
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02b8b92f
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A544395
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
On , you wrote me:

MH>  Have you read his "Climbing Mount Improbable" yet?

No, but I bought a copy of it recently. It is scheduled for right after
Ellison's Edgeworks 2.


--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Brett Johnson
|Sub:  Re: "Sin" mythology: The first evil ideo
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:07:00
EID:1d34 219118e0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02c0290a
REPLY: 1:221/203 08fe0b3e
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
In a message to Fredric Rice you wrote:

FR>> Yeah, the concept of "sin" is itself the most destructive
FR>> ideology that humanity has yet come up with. It negates the
FR>> worth of humanity and has granted Christianity the excuse
FR>> of slaughtering MILLIONS of innocent people

BJ> I'll ignore the "slaughering millions" remark,

Of course you will. You Christians have a habit of ignoring hurtful facts.

BJ>  since it's
BJ> unqualified, and inflamatory.  

The Crusades.

Uncounted witch-burnings, drowings, etc. both here and in Europe.

The slaughter of the Druids.

Northern Ireland (at least you're killing your own there).

Lebanon.

Need I go on?

Go ahead... tell is "But they weren't *Real*, *True* *Christians!*"




--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:11:00
EID:4df2 21911960
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02c334c9
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A544392
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
In a message to Al Schroeder you wrote:
MH> There's more, but this is enough for one post. (I like to
MH> keep them short.) :-)

And the owners of 286s everywhere thank you.

(Thank the man, Ed.)


--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  purpose and ethics
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:14:00
EID:3705 219119c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02c68a68
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A544397
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
In a message to Jesse Jones you wrote:


JJ>> Your demands for evidence make you just another
JJ>> fundamentalist,  Stevie.

MH> No, they make him sensible. Your protestations suggest you
MH> know you have none.




--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Clearly NOT Shown.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:20:00
EID:f11c 21911a80
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02cbef5e
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8642348e
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
In a message to Dave Hamilton you wrote:

DH>> Here's your opportunity to verify your own bullshit, yet
DH>> you ignore it. Do you actually think you have more
DH>> credibility here than Karl? Or, now that I think about it,

LA>  Karl is rude, intolerant, bigotted and arrogant.

Whereas you're simply dumb as shit.

Karl's got you beat *again*.



--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Catastrophism.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:21:00
EID:f85f 21911aa0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02ccb3d3
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 864234d7
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
In a message to Doug Lee you wrote:

DL>> I'd be interested to know your educational background.

LA>   Perhaps you would be, but why not skip the irrelevant and
LA> the trivia and address the subject matter? Why do you
LA> believe that we "came from monkeys"? Did you get that
LA> rammed down your throat at college without ever being 
LA> presented with the other side of the case?

Why the song and dance, Liar? Do you have something to hide?



--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  literally seaking  1/
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:27:00
EID:de30 21911b60
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02d29350
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 721119f2
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
In a message to Jim Hansen you wrote:

MG>>> Do you have hard evidence that the supernatural
MG>>> exists?

JH>> That would depend on what kind of "hard evidence" you
JH>> expect.

MG> You may quit doing the fundy shuffle any time now.

A fundy actually *stopping* the shuffle?

Do you *want* the world to end?

--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:35:00
EID:5412 21911c60
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02d9301e
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b48219
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
GT> to _my_ daughter.{vbeg} Thirteen years old, 6' 
GT> already, and 230# of Valkyrie; karate and 

Jeeeeeesssssus...

I'm 6'3", and the only time I weigh 230 pounds is after an especially heavy
Christmas dinner.

It's time to wean her off the twinkies, Glen.

--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  more physics comedy
|Date: 17 Dec 96  03:53:00
EID:e869 21911ea0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 02ea5db8
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32b49db1
PID: SemPoint 2.25 UNREG
On , you wrote me:

DW>> You still don't understand the point of the ocean
DW>> analogy, do you?

AS>  I think so, subject to your correction. 

You say you do....

AS> I think that the universe is, on a whole, electrically
AS> neutral--no matter how much local areas might have
AS> positively or negatively charged areas.

. . . then go on to demonstrate that you don't.

Dave's New Year's Resolution #1: Try not to bash my head against brick walls
so often.

AS> Now, suppose the proton's charge was greater. Though there
AS> might be areas that are neutral or negative, the sum charge
AS> of the entire universe would be positive, would it not?

This universe? Yes. Another universe, just formed from scratch? Maybe. It
could be that more electrons would form, thus balancing out the increased
charge on individual protons.

You're trying to keep all of the "constants" constant save the one you're
interested in again.

DW>> The overall charge would move from neutral to either a
DW>> positive or negative value. Beyond that, I haven't 
DW>> much of a clue.

AS> Let's assume, like our universe, there is a Big Bang. But
AS> let us also suppose that this universe is "overall"
AS> positively charged. Would that not speed the expansion? Most
AS> theories of galaxy formation have a very narrow "window" of
AS> speed of expansion in which galaxies can form. Now, when I
AS> challenged Curtis to give an energy source for his plasma
AS> beings, since the sun itself would fly apart under those
AS> conditions. He responded talking about, among other things,
AS> black holes. I ruled out black holes that are the remains of
AS> stars, but he countered with the immense black holes that
AS> are at the center of galaxies. But if the universe is
AS> expanding much faster, the galaxies will not form, and there
AS> will be no immense black holes. So the ecological "pyramid"
AS> of the lifeforms would be without an outside source of power
AS> to draw upon.

I fail to see what all this has to do with the formation (or lack thereof)
of plasma life, Al. Other than the immediately obvious point that life of
any sort would be much less likely to come about in a universe wherein *one*
of the "constants" was changed.

AS> I see your point, but I'M asking about something else here.
AS> I think an overall postively charged universe would expand
AS> much faster than ours, for instance...

That all depends on how you define "much," doesn't it?



--- 
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Torpedo Room (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Sorrowful Jones
|Date: 17 Dec 96  14:23:48
EID:8b53 219172e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32b6addb
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ad13e268
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280

Mercurii dies December 11 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:

sq>> That post of his was TEEMING with quote file material.
FR> I thought about picking them apart and making a number of entries in
the
FR> quotes file but ended-up keeping the most lunatic.

I'll have to separate the good stuff from the dross, then. :)

sq>> "Pacts with demonic forces."
FR>   Oh but some day we'll all be sorry!  

I made a pact with a demonic force when I initiated construction on my pool,
but beyond that, I can't recall signing anything in the presence of demons.
Shit, I've never even SEEN a demon, unless you count one my wife's nieces.

sq>> Can you believe this shit out of someone
sq>> who expects us to believe he's rational?
FR> He doesn't, though.  He's deliberately trying to get noticed, I think.

"Get down on your knees.  Crawl like the dog that you are!"

FR> I seriously doubt he believes half of his own lunatic rants.

I would say to the contrary:  I think he believes every word of what he
types. He's delusional, and as I've been saying for years, he's one of the
most dangerous Fundamentalists we've ever seen in here.  He's what I call
a "Stealth Fundy," appearing rational but carrying all kinds of irrational
nonsense, some of which graces the covers of various tabloids.  That he
quotes Jung does not lend credibility to his rants.

--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia:  "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Don't think
|Date: 17 Dec 96  14:27:48
EID:e3b9 21917360
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32b6ae55
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ad13e269
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!

Mercurii dies December 11 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:


JJ>>>> From where does this innate right of self-definition come?
SS>>>> Are you claiming that you don't have that right?
JJ>>>> Yes.
SS>>>> Who defines you if not yourself?
JJ>>>> God.
FR> Little wind-up robot without a thought in his head that is his own.

So, we move on over to the next line in the checkout, and we say "God, from
where does this innate right of self-definition come?  Who defines it if
not yourself?"

FR> The Jones _has_ made such claims before about homophobic hate-mongering
FR> groups.  He's stampped his little foot and demanded that's not what
FR> Christianity is about -- all the while ignoring the fact that
FR> hate-mongering is ___TRADITIONAL___ Christianity.

I would rather that he be out there cleaning up his club's act rather than
in here telling me that I'm not "thankful."  [Wanna bet that he takes that
as "I wish he would leave?" :) ]

--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia:  "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Thanksethics
|Date: 17 Dec 96  14:29:50
EID:932d 219173a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32b6ae98
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ad92f907
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!

Jovis dies December 12 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:

SQ>>> Just an atheist out here doing good things.
iJcJ>> Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.
FR> 

"Why, Brother Fredric and I signed a demonic pact so that Fred could get
echomail!"

sq>> Yours is not to change the subject.  Tell me
sq>> about the source of your deity's ethics.
FR> He is not programmed to respond in that area.

You are infection.  You are harmful to the body.  You will be absorbed.
It is the will of Landru.

--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia:  "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention?
|Date: 17 Dec 96  14:35:02
EID:6207 21917460
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32b6afc2
REPLY: 1:3603/210 09c2457e
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280

Salue, ROBERT!

Lunae dies December 16 1996, Dixit ROBERT CURRY ad Steve Quarrella:

RC> So what are you planning for Easter weekend, 1997?

Why, I was planning on spending that weekend not being thankful!

RC>> I hereby nominate you and Fred for the HolySmoke Convention
RC>> Committee. We should plan to have one in 1998.
RC>> (Do I hear a second?)
SQ>> How does a cardinal say "No, thank you" if they elect him Pope?
RC> Congratulations. You may now shit in the woods.

"Congratulations. You may now shit in the woods."

--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia:  "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Don Martin
|Sub:  Why do they stay?
|Date: 17 Dec 96  15:46:34
EID:a1f9 21917dc0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32b6c21c
REPLY: 1:261/1137.0 32b3ddc3
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Don!

Dies solis December 15 1996, Dixit Don Martin ad Steve Quarrella:

SQ>> me "Stevie."  I guess he thinks he's one of my Sicilian aunts, neither
SQ>> of whom call me "Stevie" to be patronizing (Mr. Jones couldn't
SQ>> patronize a fireplug, let alone a human being.).
DM>     You'll know you're in trouble when he starts pinching your cheek

It all depends on which of the four cheeks he chooses to pinch.  Nothing
this guy does would faze me.

SQ>> Absolutely.  If my theory about religious sadomasochism is true, many
SQ>> of them come here to experience humiliation at the hands of the
SQ>> non-believers.

DM>     This certainly goes further to explain the behavior we see than
DM> does any rationality-based theory.

I've read a few cases dealing with so-called stigmatics, and in all of them,
there is some kind of serious emotional trauma that triggers overwhelming
feelings of guilt or some other such emotion.  The victim "turns to Jesus,"
and in attempting to purge themselves of that guilt, adopt the persona of
Christ, down to the wounds.  Granted, this is some rather fuzzy stuff, and
is IMUO ("unprofessional") more psychosomatic than physical, but I think
we're seeing related behaviour out of the Fundies here.  They get their
scourging right there in the privacy of their own homes.  Some folks jerk
off to naked pictures on their screens, while others become aroused by being
"IHS!"


[FWIW, as for the most famous stigmatic of the 20th century, Padre Pio,
I haven't found much in the way of biographical information.]

DM> Can it be that us WOAs are being duped into prostituting ourselves?

Actually, I've read that some dominatrices have successfully defended themselves
in the courts after having been prosecuted for "prostitution" (Yet no intercourse
or exchange of fluids has taken place.).  Like them, we are merely providing
a service.

Of course, we SHOULD charge for it. :)

DM> Dammit, I wanna $1000 a night for
DM> what I do! Perhaps we could make HolySmoke a 900 number for fundies?

"On your knees, slave!  Like the worthless piece of False Christian Scum
that you are!" 

--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia:  "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  Rant Wars with "Commie Sue".
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:20:44
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee373
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b41
PID: FM 2.02
SM>      1: My apologies to anyone who may experience "collateral insult"
SM> upon reading these messages, especially "Commie Sue"'s fellow
SM> Canadians.

>> NOW you say so. Have you considered prefacing
>> wide-range invectives with warnings?

ss> I did do exactly that.

It was considerate of you to do so, in fact.  Knowing what a somewhat lengthy
series of messages is about up front helps participants decide quickly whether
they wish to review it or step forward.

As it is, I have _no_ idea what's going on between you and Sue.  It looks
like a simple difference of opinion.

~*~  If history has shown us anything it is that believing in God
seems to dull one's sense of justice. - Derek Clayton

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Doug Schwandt
|Sub:  Well?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:24:31
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee374
PID: FM 2.02
CG> Well using your own criteria you should ALSO be saying
cg> the 'mythology of God', since you demand proof of science,
cg> it is only fair to apply the same set of standards to
cg> your own 'faith'. :-)

ds> Not necessarily.  Evolutionists have felt very free to unilaterally
ds> apply the standard that religion is a myth for DECADES.

Do you have _any_ evidence for that claim, Doug?  Any at all?  Give me a
reference where I might find this statement.  (And no, I won't let you ignore
my request.  I will continue to ask until you provide the reference, retract
your lie, or until you die.)

Fact is, you ignorant savage, that scientific method doesn't concern itself
with claims that are untestable.  What scientific method _does_ show is
that
the mythologies cultists like yourself still cling to are scientific
impossibilities -- not technological difficulties, but scientific
impossibilities.

Science also proves beyond doubt that the classical Christanic mythologies
are
mythologies.

ds> We are only now beginning to return the favor.

No, you cultists have been trying to deny the fact of science for some 10,000
years.  It's nothing new.  As science describes directly observed phenomena
(such as evolution) your deities (constructed in ignorance) move further
and
further into the realm of the absurd.  Now that science has proven your
mythologies are lies, you have to hide your gods behind black holes and
big
bangs.

~*~  Besides being wrong, he's probably a chicken shit too. - Kirby Nixon

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   DAVID RICE
|Sub:  Why don't we [sic] see God[sic]
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:36:26
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee375
PID: FM 2.02
#include Lee Woofenden

LW> Here's something to add to the discussion about why
LW> we don't usually see God[sic].

dr> Don't "usually?!" Since when has anyone seen gods,
dr> "non-usually" or otherwise?

The utter audacity of demanding that "we" are in any way connected with
his occult fantasies!

~*~  And some days I pray for silence, and some days I pray for soul.
And some days I pray to the God of sex and drums and rock n' roll.
- Meat Loaf

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  "Sin" mythology: The first evil ideology
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:43:08
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee376
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 02c0290a
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> Yeah, the concept of "sin" is itself the most destructive
FR>> ideology that humanity has yet come up with. It negates the
R>> worth of humanity and has granted Christianity the excuse
FR>> of slaughtering MILLIONS of innocent people

BJ> I'll ignore the "slaughering millions" remark,

dw> Of course you will. You Christians have a
dw> habit of ignoring hurtful facts.

Which is exactly what I told the fool.  If history teaches these people
anything it's to deny history.  In fact I asked him if he would like to
see a miniscule piece of the body count -- I could type in some numbers,
dates, and locations from Holy Horrors.

BJ>  since it's unqualified, and inflamatory.

dw> The Crusades.
dw> Uncounted witch-burnings, drowings, etc. both here and in Europe.
dw> The slaughter of the Druids.
dw> Northern Ireland (at least you're killing your own there).
dw> Lebanon.
dw> Need I go on?

Let's add Prop. 2 in Colrado, Ammendment 5 in Florida, countless women terrorized,
honest men and women butchered outside of abortion clinics, the KKK, Aryan
Nations, Sword and the Cross, Church of Jesus Christ Christian... The evil
continues unabaited.  The Constitution of the United States keeps them defanged
but the animal hasn't changed a bit.

~*~  Condemnation inevitable, for the One Inpardonable Sin -- Instead
of living your life for yourself, You lived your life for Him.
- Kenneth Cavness

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  Sorrowful Jones
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:51:12
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee377
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b6addb
PID: FM 2.02
sq>> That post of his was TEEMING with quote file material.
FR> I thought about picking them apart and making a number of entries in
fr> the quotes file but ended-up keeping the most lunatic.

sq> I'll have to separate the good stuff from the dross, then. :)

Well, the archiving begins again so we'll be able to revisit any outrageous
fundy implosion which comes along.  And this one still has plenty of shit
left to throw.

sq>> "Pacts with demonic forces."

FR>   Oh but some day we'll all be sorry!  

sq> I made a pact with a demonic force when I initiated construction
sq> on my pool, but beyond that, I can't recall signing anything in
sq> the presence of demons.

Right...  I remember that.  }:-}

sq> Shit, I've never even SEEN a demon,
sq> unless you count one my wife's nieces.

How about that ugly disgusting bitch that does the Lucky commercials?  Man
there's just something about that clown face that disgusts me.

sq>> Can you believe this shit out of someone
sq>> who expects us to believe he's rational?
FR> He doesn't, though.  He's deliberately trying to get noticed, I think.

sq> "Get down on your knees.  Crawl like the dog that you are!"

Make me feel worthy!

FR> I seriously doubt he believes half of his own lunatic rants.

sq> I would say to the contrary:

"How dare you!" - Thornycrotch.   }:-}

sq> I think he believes every word of what he types.

That would mean that he is mentally ill, Steve.  I mean truely mentally
unballanced.  I mean I like to kid around a lot about how fundies are insane
(and if they're Creationists it's true) but this one doesn't seem to believe
in the Creationist occultism.

Either Jesse is pretending to believe that emotions come from his deity
constructs else he is honesly insane.

sq> He's delusional, and as I've been saying for years, he's one of
sq> the most dangerous Fundamentalists we've ever seen in here.

I wonder.  We should both ask him if he honestly believes the occult blatherings
he spouts or whether he's merely following orders and the party line.  If
he actually believes his lunatic nonsense, man, I just can't imagine how
he manages to feed himself honestly.

sq> He's what I call a "Stealth Fundy," appearing rational but
sq> carrying all kinds of irrational nonsense, some of which
sq> graces the covers of various tabloids.  That he quotes Jung
sq> does not lend credibility to his rants.

It only took some nine months or so to work that clown suit off of him --
it was Ciya which removed it.  I still don't know if he's just lying or
whether he actually believes what he spouts.

~*~  A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearanging their prejudices. - David Rice, HolySmoke

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)


|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  Don't think, Jesse, gods will do it for you
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:54:40
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee378
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b6ae55
PID: FM 2.02
JJ>>>> From where does this innate right of self-definition come?
SS>>>> Are you claiming that you don't have that right?
JJ>>>> Yes.
SS>>>> Who defines you if not yourself?
JJ>>>> God.
FR> Little wind-up robot without a thought in his head that is his own.

sq> So, we move on over to the next line in the checkout, and
sq> we say "God, from where does this innate right of self-
sq> definition come?  Who defines it if not yourself?"

Pretty soon he's going to run out of stack space.  }:-}

FR> The Jones _has_ made such claims before about homophobic
fr> hate-mongering groups.  He's stampped his little foot and
fr> demanded that's not what Christianity is about -- all the
fr> while ignoring the fact that hate-mongering is ___TRADITIONAL___
fr> Christianity.

sq> I would rather that he be out there cleaning up his club's
sq> act rather than in here telling me that I'm not "thankful."
sq> [Wanna bet that he takes that as "I wish he would leave?" :) ]

Since when have you ever known a fundy to take care of their own dogma's
droppings?  In the media it's _always_ left up to atheists or rival Christanic
cult brands to expose their shit.

~*~  Find your peace, find your say, find the smooth road on your way.
Trust you gave, a child to save, left you cold and him in grave.
- METALLICA

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)


|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  Thanksethics
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:56:21
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee379
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b6ae98
PID: FM 2.02
SQ>>> Just an atheist out here doing good things.
iJcJ>> Go ahead, Stevie.  Tell us about the good things you do.
FR> 

sq> "Why, Brother Fredric and I signed a demonic
sq> pact so that Fred could get echomail!"

And it was sealed with a SeeKRuT pAHsswUrd!  Ooooooh!  Evil!

sq>> Yours is not to change the subject.  Tell me
sq>> about the source of your deity's ethics.

FR> He is not programmed to respond in that area.

sq> You are infection.  You are harmful to the body.
sq> You will be absorbed.  It is the will of Landru.

I heard him!  He spoke against Landru!

~*~  But when judgement is cast down upon you ... don't forget to get out
your calculator and convert the temperature in hell from Celsius to Rankin
units. - David (Christian Soldier)

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention?
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:58:03
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8ee37a
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b6afc2
PID: FM 2.02
RC> So what are you planning for Easter weekend, 1997?

sq> Why, I was planning on spending that weekend not being thankful!

  You're an atheist who thinks for himself, has no masters, isn't
constantly bilked out of money through fear...  whatever do you have to
feel thankful for?

~*~  When I first met him, he offered $10 to jack off, and I said 'No' and
he said, 'But I'm going to do it myself. You won't have to touch me.'
And I said 'No, I won't do nothing under $20. Even if you want to look
at my titties, you have to give me $20'.
-- Debra Murphree refering to Jimmy Swaggart
(Penthouse magazine, July 1988)

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)



|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention
|Date: 16 Dec 96  19:01:42
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af92b93e
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32b6c84b
PID: FM 2.02
FR> The HolySmoke Central Committee is calling for the formation of a
FR> HolySmoke Convention subcommittee which will coordinate all activities

sq> I haven't laughed out loud like this in a LONG time. :)

We're the same committee which has brought the previous conspiracies.  }:-}

FR> easilly make the drive from many States (California, Arizona,
FR> Texas, Colorado, and Utah are all within a day's safe driving
FR> distance.)

sq> Vegas is at least two days from Dallas.  Hell, we
sq> have to drive "overtime" just to get OUT of Texas.

You're so right.  I have a map opened and can see that it would take a long
time.  New Mexico might be a day.  Oregon and Idaho might be able to make
it in a day.

sq> My wife and I typically make it to Tucumcari, NM, just over
sq> the border, when we're headed in that direction.  Santa Rosa
sq> if we're awake, Gallop if we're insane (You're almost in
sq> Arizona at that point).  We would fly, as that drive SUCKS.

Yes, I served three years in Richardson and did the drive a number of times.
Hell, I've taken the Amtrack into Santa Ana, California from Dallas -- and
that sucked more.  }:-}

An airplane flight would be something like 2.5 hours into Las Vegas, I think,
from Dallas.  I should look into what airfare costs are like.

FR>     2) Poll for a month within which the most number of people who
FR>        would wish to attend could attend then determine how many people
FR>        are likely to attend.

sq> Getting Jesse Jones to attend will be like getting
sq> William Shatner to a Trek convention.  -Difficult.-

We could tell him his gods wll be there.

FR>     3) Collect hotel information from the area, offering a spectrum
FR>        of accomidations from the extremely cheap (such as perhaps the

sq> I might recommend either Palace Station or Boulder
sq> Station.  Both are off the strip, reasonably-priced,
sq> clean, and full of good places to eat.

Tell it to the subcommittee.  }:-}  I'll start to collect responses until
we can get a committee formed.  It does make sense to stay off the strip
yet we all don't have to stay at the same place.  For many of us only Saturday
night would be needed as we would be driving Friday evening and Sunday evening.

FR> also help decrease the cost of staying.  Getting into a hotel
FR> which has a cheap all-you-can-eat buffet would also be a good

sq> All of 'em have buffets.  They want to feed you cheaply
sq> so you go out and waste money in the machines. :)

There's no free lunch?     Some of the places David and I stopped
in we eventually didn't eat -- they set the food before us and we left because
we didn't want to barf.

FR> In fact, the hotel management need not ever learn who's sleeping
FR> in what rooms.  They need not even be told we're attending a
FR> convention -- as was mentioned, that could drive up the price
FR> of everything.

sq> We likewise could run into trouble stirred up by concerned
sq> Fundamentalists who believe that "demonic pacts" are being
sq> forged by "Satanists" in the hotel.

  That would be great!  We could have a book that people could
sign.  

FR> a) Consider a theme for this year's convention.  The theme
FR>    "For the most part, atheists do no good things"

sq> :)
sq> I'd like to mention "Fish in the stratosphere."

That's a good one.  It's got a lofty theme, underscores the lunacy of a
certain brand of theism we see here, and is an insider's subject.

I thought "Ciya in Hell!" was a good one.

FR> c) Consider holding an awards presentation for various
FR>    categories.  The awards themselves can be pictures printed

sq> "I won't accept this.  SCIENCE made it!"

"Hey, the babble doesn't say nothing about no laser printers!  They're of
Satan."

FR> 3) The award for the most rabid atheist

sq> Where HAS Steve Rose been?

I was thinking of him yesterday, in fact, and was going to post a message
to him to see if there would be a response.  I have no idea where he went.

FR> f) Can we get convention T-Shirts made up?  The committee

sq> It's a must.

I think so.

sq> BTW, I am having thoughts about scripting a HOLYSMOKE movie.
sq> The theme music would be Creedence Clearwater Revival's "Run
sq> through the Jungle," and would feature one of our Fundamentalist
sq> friends in what would amount to a screen version of "Doom."
sq> "Two hundred million guns are loaded, Satan cries 'Take aim!'"

I'll get Drew Barrymore to star in the role of Jimmy Swaggart's whore!

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)

|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  HolySmoke Convention
|Date: 17 Dec 96  16:10:54
EID:209b 21918140
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32b6c84b
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet af8e6f7a
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!

Lunae dies December 16 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad All:

FR> The HolySmoke Central Committee is calling for the formation of a
FR> HolySmoke Convention subcommittee which will coordinate all activities

I haven't laughed out loud like this in a LONG time. :)


FR>     1) Las Vegas appears to have the lowest round-trip air fares.
FR>        Additionally it looks like a great many HolySmokers could
FR>        easilly make the drive from many States (California, Arizona,
FR>        Texas, Colorado, and Utah are all within a day's safe driving
FR>        distance.)

Vegas is at least two days from Dallas.  Hell, we have to drive "overtime"
just to get OUT of Texas.  My wife and I typically make it to Tucumcari,
NM, just over the border, when we're headed in that direction.  Santa Rosa
if we're awake, Gallop if we're insane (You're almost in Arizona at that
point).  We would fly, as that drive SUCKS.

FR>     2) Poll for a month within which the most number of people who
FR>        would wish to attend could attend then determine how many people
FR>        are likely to attend.

Getting Jesse Jones to attend will be like getting William Shatner to a
Trek convention.  -Difficult.-

FR>     3) Collect hotel information from the area, offering a spectrum
FR>        of accomidations from the extremely cheap (such as perhaps the

I might recommend either Palace Station or Boulder Station.  Both are off
the strip, reasonably-priced, clean, and full of good places to eat.

FR>        also help decrease the cost of staying.  Getting into a hotel
FR>        which has a cheap all-you-can-eat buffet would also be a good

All of 'em have buffets.  They want to feed you cheaply so you go out and
waste money in the machines. :)

FR>        In fact, the hotel management need not ever learn who's sleeping
FR>        in what rooms.  They need not even be told we're attending a
FR>        convention -- as was mentioned, that could drive up the price
FR>        of everything.

We likewise could run into trouble stirred up by concerned Fundamentalists
who believe that "demonic pacts" are being forged by "Satanists" in the
hotel.

FR>         a) Consider a theme for this year's convention.  The theme
FR>                 "For the most part, atheists do no good things"

:)

I'd like to mention "Fish in the stratosphere."


FR>         c) Consider holding an awards presentation for various
FR>            categories.  The awards themselves can be pictures printed
on
FR>            a Laser Printer which is symbolic of the attributes which
FR>            comprise the reasons for the award.  If an awards presentation
FR>            is agreed upon, such categories could include:
FR>                 1) The award for the most rabid fundy

"I won't accept this.  SCIENCE made it!"

FR>                 3) The award for the most rabid atheist

Where HAS Steve Rose been?

FR>         f) Can we get convention T-Shirts made up?  The committee

It's a must.


BTW, I am having thoughts about scripting a HOLYSMOKE movie.  The theme
music would be Creedence Clearwater Revival's "Run through the Jungle,"
and would feature one of our Fundamentalist friends in what would amount
to a screen version of "Doom."  "Two hundred million guns are loaded, Satan
cries 'Take aim!'"

--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia:  "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Sunshine.
|Date: 15 Dec 96 18:20:00
EID:9a10 218f9280
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b60b361
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to Rick Mcfarlane <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

RM>   You're going to demonstrate how Bahcall and Davis say
RM> they suspect that fusion does not power the sun?  This
RM> sould be interesting.

LA> "There is a large, unexplained disagreement between
LA> observation and the supposedly well established theory.
LA> This discrepancy has led to a crisis in the theory of
LA> stellar evolution; many authors are openly questioning
LA> some of the basic principles and approximations in this
LA> supposed dry (and solved) subject."

LA> ("Solar Neutrinos: A Scientific Puzzle, John N. Bahcall
LA> and Raymond Davis, Jr. SCIENCE 191 (1976): p. 264-267 - my
LA> Ref: Young World, p. 59)

RM>     Gee, it doesn't say what you claim anywhere in the
RM>  quote you provide.

LA> What are you "claiming" that I claimed?

You claimed that the sun is not powered by fusion "of course".  And you

produced the above quote in support.  And it says nothing of the sort.

Clear on it now?  What part of it had you forgotten?

LA> So in your scientific integrity and Christian honesty you
LA> could not possibly first minimise, then swept under the
LA> carpet and finally forgot such things, could you? :-)

.  a) I forgot nothing.  (You appear to have forgotten that you 
claimed ths sun is not powered by fusion).
b) I swept nothing under the carpet (I keep turning your carpet   
over on you, exposing all the rotten stuff you've swept under 
there).
c) I make no claim to be a Christian (You do, however).

So the above comment looks very much like you are projecting, again.

Take care.        

... Ruth made a big mistake when he gave up pitching. (Tris Speaker, 1921)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Age of Universe.
|Date: 16 Dec 96 21:15:00
EID:c785 2190a9e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b60b371
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to Rick Mcfarlane <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

RM>     Having done the exercise, I personally have concluded
RM> that they are usually valid, that precautions can be (and
RM> are) taken to insure that they are valid, and that it is
RM> usually not difficult to recognize specific cases where they
RM> may not be valid.  You have yet to present any evidence to
RM> the contrary (as usual).  Do the exercise.

LA> In your case it seems more than possible that you were
LA> convinced before hand anyway! 

Do the exercise, Laurie. 

LA> However, do tell me how you
LA> recognised specific cases where they may not be valid?

Provide the answer before you do the exercise?  Hardly fair for the other

students, is it?  One hint.  Pillow lavas.

LA> I suggest that you ALREADY had an 'age' in mind before
LA> you started, which was based on some preconceived idea of
LA> the result that you WANTED, doubtless based on some
LA> information provided by the person who submitted the sample
LA> in the first?

You would be suggesting something that was totally incorrect.

But it wouldn't be the first time you did that, now, would it?

LA> Anyone familiar with the decade long controversy of the
LA> KBS Tuff 

That would exclude me.  I'm not a geologist, so it would be unreasonable

to expect I should be familiar with every geological formation that some

Creationist might decided to bring up.

LA> Doubtless you will have your usual smooth talk about this
LA> being only a minor matter and you will do your minimizing
LA> trick and try to "sweep it under the carpet" etc.

Nope.  I'll use my usual smooth honesty to admit my unfamiliarity with the

subject.  And then I'll use my usual smooth integrity to go and find out

what I can.

Fully expecting it to fit with the previous pattern of Creationist 
misrepresentation of the truth.

That's why I research them, Laurie.  You invariably just provide us with

more examples to use against you.

Take care.

... Valor grows by daring, fear by holding back. - Publilius Syrus
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Data vs Opinion.
|Date: 16 Dec 96 21:17:00
EID:f514 2190aa20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b60b381
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to Rick Mcfarlane <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

RM>  .

LA> Dishonourable tactic,

Grinning at the ridiculous is dishonourable?  Could you please 
explain how you came to that conclusion?

LA> indicative of the weakness of your arguments!

Oh?  The fact that I laugh at you when you say something ridiculous (a 
common occurence) means that there's something weak about my arguments?

You'll have to excuse me if I don't follow your "logic".

What's actually behind your "complaint" about my "dishonourable" tactic
is 
your desire to do to me what I have been doing to you.  I've been pointing

out your dishonesty for long enough now that you want to start hitting 
back.  So you've searched my posts for something dishonest to throw 
back at me.  And all you could find was "".  

Frustrating, isn't it?  Your posts are full of examples of dishonesty, 
mine are spotless.  That comparison is precisely what I've been 
working at these last 6 months.  Should we take a vote on whether I've 
been doing a good job?

.  As if I'd be so stupid that I'd use dishonest tactics while
I 
was pointing out yours.  I have been, and will remain, scrupulously 
honest.  I will do my very best to resist the temptation to throw ad 
hominems at you, even when you throw them at me.  I will avoid every
dishonest tactic, precisely because I WANT to present a very distinct 
contrast to you.  Besides, as we both know, the truth has no need 
of dishonest tactics.  

RM> You really are entertaining.

LA> Same again.

What, now it's "dishonourable" to compliment you?  

Take care.

... The fool is happy that he knows no more.  -  Pope
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Andrew Masten
|Sub:  Heat [1/2]
|Date: 15 Dec 96 23:20:00
EID:f065 218fba80
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b60b391
>>> Part 1 of 2...

-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Rick Mcfarlane <=-

Good morning, Andrew.

DC> He has been demonstrated to be nothing other than a baldfaced
DC> liar, not just here, but in EVOLUTION as well.

AM> You make a strong claim, do you have any substantive evidence to
AM> back it up?

RM> You have not been watching.  Pay attention.

RM> Laurie has repeatedly been shown to be lying.  I have documented a
RM> couple  of his lies myself.  Some of his more interesting ones:

RM> 1) He claims Popper said that evolution is unscientific.  Popper
...
AM> Popper has made other disparaging remarks regarding evolution.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us about these "other remarks".  A quote would

be nice.  A date would be handy.  

AM> I
AM> believe he said something to the effect that evolution in explaining
AM> everything explains nothing.

That was the early one, which he later retracted. 

AM> I read his recantation and I don't think it was a 100% retraction
AM> of his original claim. I think it was more a face saving gesture
AM> made under duress.

You "think" so?  Popper himself called it a "recantation".  His words 
aren't good enough for you?

AM> As you stated no one can no what Popper thinks but himself.

We don't know what Popper thinks.  OTOH, we know what Popper says Popper

thinks.  And it's not what Laurie says Popper thinks.  There is 
"substantive evidence" that one of them is lying.  You prefer to think 
Popper's lying about what Popper thinks, and that somehow Laurie KNOWS 
what Popper thinks, and that he's telling the truth about?  A little 
farfetched, no? 

AM> Whose
AM> to say that his original statement made under no duress is what he
AM> really thinks. 

I'd think we have to take Popper's word on this one, wouldn't you?  (And

what duress do you think he was under?) 

RM> 2) He repeatedly quotes Eldrige admitting that Creationists won the
RM> vast  majority of a series of debates in the early '80s.  He carefully
RM> cuts the  quote off at the point where Eldrige explains that their
...

AM> I've seen the quote you mention and it does say that the audiences
AM> were stacked in the creationists favor. But in balance he also says
AM> that they are articulate, knowledgeable, and do thier homework.

Yep, he says that.  And he says (in the part that Laurie doesn't 
quote) that their arguments are devoid of intellectual content.  On 
balance, Laurie misrepresents Eldrige.

AM> There are different styles of debate.

Yep.  For instance, Laurie's uses dishonest tactics and I don't.

AM> I am not aware of any unwritten rule that a  
AM> person has to point out the positive and negative views from a
AM> source. 

Nope.  Quote whatever you want, as long as you don't misrepresent what the

person you are quoting means.  Laurie does that repeatedly.  He 
invariably prefaces a quote with an editorial comment that is unsupported

by the quote, or even is the direct opposite of the real intention of the

author.  He removes the context of the quote and replaces it with context

of his own, changing the meaning entirely. 

It's like that old favourite about how the Bible says "... there is no 
God..."  when the full context says the opposite.    

You asked for substantive evidence that Laurie lies.  Maybe you don't 
consider this sort of misrepresentation a lie, but surely you do not 
consider it to be an honest tactic.  How would you classify it?

RM> 3) He claims that Darrow said in court, during his closing arguments
RM> at  the Scopes trial, that "It is the height of bigotry to teach only
RM> one  theory of origins in school".  Darrow never said any such thing.


AM> I can't tell you why Laurie wouldn't concede this insignificant
AM> point. 

He had the details of this particular "quote" spelled out to him over a

month ago.  Yet just last week he repeated the claim that Darrow had 
said that.  

You say you don't know why he does this.  I don't know why he does it 
either, but it's a lie, pure and simple.  You asked for "substantive 
evidence" that he lies.  You've got it.

He even lies on insignificant points.

RM> 4) He has been shown to knowingly misrepresent the views of many
RM> scientists.  I'll give a specific example in the case of Dawkins.  One
RM> of  Laurie's favourite quotes is:

LA>      "The more statistically improbable a thing is, the
LA> less can we believe that it just happened by blind chance.
LA> Superficially the obvious alternative to chance is an
LA> intelligent Designer."

RM> Leaving the clear impression that Dawkins sees intelligent design as
a
RM> legitimate alternative to the theory of natural selection.  However,
RM> Laurie  has cut Dawkins off in the middle of a paragraph, the whole
of
RM> which goes: 
RM> The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less can we
RM> believe that it just happened by blind chance.  Superficially the
RM> obvious alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer. But
RM> Charles Darwin showed how it is possible for blind physical
RM> forces to mimic the effects of conscious design, and, by operating
RM> as a cumulative filter of chance variations, to lead eventual to
RM> organized and adaptive complexity, to mosquitoes and mammoths, to
RM> humans and therefore, indirectly, to books and computers.     

RM> Clearly, Dawkins viewpoint is very different that the impression
RM> Laurie  strives to leave with his careful editing of Dawkins words.

AM> Those are legitimate points you make in rebuttal. However, right
AM> there in the paragraph it says superficially, which indicates that
AM> was not his ultimate conclusion.

So?  All that means is that Laurie's lie was transparent.  Being a poor

liar is not better than being a good liar.

AM> There is a book called the bone peddlers that is very disparaging
AM> of evolution. Yet I totally disagree with his conclusions. Does
AM> that mean every time I quote him as a source I have to file a
AM> disclaimer noting that I disagree with his conclusions? I could do
AM> so, but I don't think its mandatory.

If you misrepresent his conclusions - if you try to claim that he actually

meant something different than he really did mean - then you would be 
lying, no?

Laurie does that.  All the time.

You asked for evidence that Laurie is lying.  You've seen only a little
of 
the evidence, (he posts hundreds of messages here a month, so there's LOTS


>>> Continued to next message...

--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Andrew Masten
|Sub:  Heat [2/2]
|Date: 15 Dec 96 23:25:00
EID:b465 218fbb20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b60b3a1
>>> Part 2 of 2...

more of it ) but the little you have seen should be enough to show the

pattern.

RM> Similar examples from Eldrige, Asimov, Gould, etc have been documented
RM> in  this echo.  This dishonest tactic is not unique to Laurie - he has
RM> learned  it from other Creationists.  Gould in particular has taken
RM> great offense  to having his words twisted by Creationists, and has
RM> openly taken them to  task for it.  But they still do it.

AM> So does that mean if a creationist concedes certain points that
AM> evolutionists have been making does that mean there off the record
AM> and evolutionists can't use them? Hardly. Gould got hoisted by his
AM> own petard. By putting forth punk eek he all but concured with much
AM> the creationists have been saying regarding the lack of fossil
AM> evidence and his conclusion that species appear all of a sudden fully
AM> formed. But were supposed to wring our hands and not use his
AM> statements in debates or discussion? A few on this board made hay of
AM> the Pope's statement that he concured with the evolution model.
AM> Should we say hands off because the Pope's conclusions don't agree
AM> with evolutionists? 

No one is saying that at all.  If the guy says something, if he concedes
a 
point, that's fine.  But don't misrepresent him by claiming that he says

something that he does not say.

You want another example?  One from Gould?

Laurie claims that Gould says there are no transitional fossils.  He backs

that up with an out of context quote from Gould that says it is a trade

secret of paleontology that transitional fossils are extremely rare.

Note the difference.  Gould says "extremely rare", but that wasn't 
adequate for Laurie's purposes, so Laurie claims Gould says "non-
existent".  This is a lie.  Pure and simple.

RM> You are siding with a documented liar.  Be careful of the company you
RM> keep. 

AM> On a parting note I'd like you to consider this Rick. How often
AM> do you consider some of the tactics those on your side of the
AM> debate employ?

I have taken other people here to task over those tactics.  I'm obviously

not capable of changing the way they choose to debate.  I can only control

the way I debate.  And I choose to avoid those tactics to the very best
of 
my ability.

Have I been doing OK, Andrew?

AM>  As an aggragate, they rarely quote sources. They
AM> think nothing of the constant use of personal invective, cursing,
AM> caterwalling and the use of inflammatory and perjorative rhetoric.

Yep.  They do all of that.  They'll also use flawed arguments that they

know are flawed if it suits their purposes.  If you had been around here

last spring, you would have got to watch me fight it out for several 
months (with a bit of support from Mike and Al and John Brawley) with 
several of these same guys (Martin, Marty, Dan, David) over whether the

Bible really says Pi = 3.000 or not  (it does not).  Laurie even agreed

with me on that one (which really scared me, I must admit).

If someone wants to present an argument that I know is bogus, they can 
expect me to point it out.  In fact, in the last couple of years here I've

spent more time arguing with "those guys" than with your side.  I am a 
theist, after all. 

AM> Countless times I have gotten replys with one sentence taken out
AM> of a paragraph, then asked to defend that one sentence.

.  One of Hector's favourite tactics.  I hate it when that happens.

You spend a lot of time putting a set of serious thoughts into a coherent

post, and the idiot at the other end ignores it all and responds to one

offhand comment.

Anyway, this note has gotten too long.  You asked for substantive evidence

that Laurie lies.  I provided it what I consider to be substantive 
evidence.  Basically, you have tried to excuse his behaviour.  I am 
puzzled by that. 

Do you see these tactics as acceptible?  I do not, and I think that, by

association, Laurie brings discredit to all who believe in God.  That is

why I oppose Laurie.

Take care.

... If you stand straight, do not fear a crooked shadow.  -  Chinese Prove
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   John Musselwhite
|Sub:  Evolutionary Highpriests.
|Date: 15 Dec 96 20:35:00
EID:1c6b 218fa460
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b60b3b1
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Laurie Appleton <=-

Good morning, John.

JM> You don't understand Asimov as you've mentioned before. Why
JM> bother quoting him? Just to waste electrons?

And an electron is a terrible thing to waste.

Take care.
... One planet...  One people....  Please!
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Re: American take-over?
|Date: 15 Dec 96 20:44:00
EID:b6b1 218fa580
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b60b3c1
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Dave Horn <=-

Good morning, Rod.

DH> He sure is.  Appleton is among the top three biggest liars in FidoNet.

RS> I'd like a Letterman Top 10 list of Laurie's actions, please God! :)
RS> :) 

My nominations for the top ten amusing Appleton "quotes":

10) Forget all those confusing modern scientific papers, check out what

Newsweek said 25 years ago....

9) Popper doesn't know what Popper thinks, but I do!

8) It's not an opinion, it's a fact, and besides, evolution is based on

opinions just like it!

7) Just say no to Flouride!

6) It's too small a change to be evolution.  No, it's too big a change to

be evolution.  No it's too small.  Too big.  Too small....

5) Evolution is a religion, just like Creationism.

4) Creationism is science, just like Evolution.

3) Just say no to vaccination!

2) You seem to have the absurd opinion that winning a debate proves one's

case.  And Creationists always win debates.

1) Velikovski is smarter than Newton.    

Yep.  He's said all those things.  And more.

Take care.
... Celibacy is not hereditary.  -  Guy Goden
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Religion debate echo
|Date: 15 Dec 96 21:08:00
EID:60d3 218fa900
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b60b3d1
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Rick Mcfarlane <=-

Good morning, Rod.

This is an OLD one, eh?

RM>  RS> Muslims accept and preach that the Christian God is supreme to
RM>  RS> their Mohammedan beliefs?

RM> In fact, Muslims recognize that Allah _is_ the Christian God.  Which,
I
RM> guess, makes Him supreme to their Mohammedan beliefs (since he is the
RM> Source of those beliefs).

RS> I was, actually, making a quick comparison that Muslims do not
RS> recognise *solely* the Christian God in their belief system. 

Uhh...  Actually, they do recognize solely the Christian God (and 
Christians probably don't like that idea).  There is only one God, Allah,

and he is the same as the Jehova of the Christians and Jews.

RS> I
RS> was making the point that Christians are ignorant in believing
RS> their belief system is the *one true belief system*.

Which I agree with.

RM> The rest of your post I gotta agree with, though.

RS> Yes, that their belief system being supreme is a highly ignorant
RS> position -

I wasn't agreeing with that, I assure you. 

RS> - let alone the consideration of what they should do in
RS> light of Pascal's Wager...

.  Pascal hadn't thought it all the way through, eh?

Take care.

... One planet...  One people....  Please!
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Christian Hedemark
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  2 Corinthians 9:13
|Date: 15 Dec 96  08:05:00
EID:1450 218f40a0
MSGID: 1:273/416@fidonet.org 14c14b2f
Karen!

Re:
KD> CH> But you fail at distinguishing the difference between Christ's
KD> CH> teachings and those purporting to have been Christians over time.

KD>Why should we need to?

There are many false teachers!

KD>If Christianity is "the message" God meant us to have, it would not lead
KD>to any such twistings. On the other hand, if it helps some people,
KD>doesn't help others, and gets twisted by yet other individuals, it is
KD>just another religion, no better than any of the others.

It does indeed get twisted. By some that don't know what they are
talking about, and yet others that have their own agenda.

Satan loves to use scripture to mislead man.

A prime example is in Mat 4:1-17    Particularly Mat 4:6

KD>The word of God would not be so amenable to twisting.

If only your thoughts were true. But man can misconstrue anything he has
heard. And man does.


Thank you
---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Try John 3:3

--- QScan/WC v1.18b / 01-0653
* Origin: The Classic BBS * Upper Darby, PA, USA * 610-394-9392 (1:273/416)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 273/416 40 420 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Christian Hedemark
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  Christianity
|Date: 15 Dec 96  08:05:00
EID:c957 218f40a0
MSGID: 1:273/416@fidonet.org c1e0d96b
Karen!

KD> CH> In some countries even today, you may be imprisoned or killed for
KD> CH> toalking to someone about Jesus. I will elaborate on this if you
like.

KD>In many countries you will be imprisoned for talking to someone about
KD>ANY religion not the established one. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism,
KD>whatever.

I was just reading about that being so in Albania, up till recent times.
The country was officially atheist. They went so far as to chop crosses
off of tombstones. Clergy were killed or imprisoned. Any "religiously
oriented" books were banned.  Then as soon as communism fell, the great
thirst for God surfaced from many people... people who had heard nothing
of God their whole lives, readily accepted all they could grasp.

And yesterday, while listening to the radio, someone was interviewed
that just returned from China. They had been arrested and forced to
"confess" for their crime of handing out tracts (I trust you are
familiar with that term) while on a train.  The passengers readily
accepted all they could get.  Most of China still outlaws churches, and
people meet in homes, always with the fear of being arrested, and losing
their jobs.

China is also well known for killing monks (non-Christian).

Love
---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ In, not of, in, not of, in, not of, in...

--- QScan/WC v1.18b / 01-0653
* Origin: The Classic BBS * Upper Darby, PA, USA * 610-394-9392 (1:273/416)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 273/416 40 420 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Christian Hedemark
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  2 Corinthians 9:13
|Date: 16 Dec 96  08:05:10
EID:ee79 219040a0
MSGID: 1:273/416.0 2190310f
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.11  96-0349
Karen!

Re:
KD> CH> But you fail at distinguishing the difference between Christ's
KD> CH> teachings and those purporting to have been Christians over time.

KD>Why should we need to?

There are many false teachers!

KD>If Christianity is "the message" God meant us to have, it would not lead
KD>to any such twistings. On the other hand, if it helps some people,
KD>doesn't help others, and gets twisted by yet other individuals, it is
KD>just another religion, no better than any of the others.

It does indeed get twisted. By some that don't know what they are
talking about, and yet others that have their own agenda.

Satan loves to use scripture to mislead man.

A prime example is in Mat 4:1-17    Particularly Mat 4:6

KD>The word of God would not be so amenable to twisting.

If only your thoughts were true. But man can misconstrue anything he has
heard. And man does.


Thank you
---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Try John 3:3

--- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.11 
* Origin: The Classic BBS * Upper Darby, PA, USA * 610-394-9392  (1:273/416)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 273/416 40 420 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Christian Hedemark
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  Christianity
|Date: 16 Dec 96  08:05:11
EID:1dff 219040a0
MSGID: 1:273/416.0 21903110
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.11  96-0349
Karen!

KD> CH> In some countries even today, you may be imprisoned or killed for
KD> CH> toalking to someone about Jesus. I will elaborate on this if you
like.

KD>In many countries you will be imprisoned for talking to someone about
KD>ANY religion not the established one. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism,
KD>whatever.

I was just reading about that being so in Albania, up till recent times.
The country was officially atheist. They went so far as to chop crosses
off of tombstones. Clergy were killed or imprisoned. Any "religiously
oriented" books were banned.  Then as soon as communism fell, the great
thirst for God surfaced from many people... people who had heard nothing
of God their whole lives, readily accepted all they could grasp.

And yesterday, while listening to the radio, someone was interviewed
that just returned from China. They had been arrested and forced to
"confess" for their crime of handing out tracts (I trust you are
familiar with that term) while on a train.  The passengers readily
accepted all they could get.  Most of China still outlaws churches, and
people meet in homes, always with the fear of being arrested, and losing
their jobs.

China is also well known for killing monks (non-Christian).

Love
---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ In, not of, in, not of, in, not of, in...

--- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.11 
* Origin: The Classic BBS * Upper Darby, PA, USA * 610-394-9392  (1:273/416)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 273/416 40 420 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Doug Lee
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  The Steve Winter FAQ [2/2
|Date: 16 Dec 96  15:18:56
EID:9425 21907a40
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32b5ef5b
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A505B31
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Doug Lee <=-

-=> Doug Lee spoke thusly to All <=-

DL> lawsuit against Netcom, as posted on his own web page.
DL> (5) Verified by his lawsuit against Concentric, as posted on his own

JB> I helped him lose those 2 accounts. Soc.rel.quaker was only one of
JB> *20* newsgroups listed as recipient of his rants.

Then perhaps you should get ahold of Steve Adams at adams@inil.com and
relate your story to him. If you don't have internet access you can
Netmail your account to me and I'll forward it to him.

JB> Quakers may not be
JB> violent, but neither are they about to stand around and have someone
JB> the likes of Winter try to moderate the newsgroup (and yes, he WAS
JB> telling everyone what they could and couldn't post) when there is a
JB> non-violent solution. All reading soc.rel.quaker were asked to email
JB> the ISP's and complain about the excessive cross-posting. We did.

JB> Too bad Winter seems to think the right of free expression ends with
JB> himself.

But he's God's chosen. Why should mortal laws be applied to him? He only
listens to God almighty.

Tho' seriously if you really have a stake in this, let Steve Adams know.

Or you can contact Concentric Network (one of the ISP's he has filed a
suit against). Netcom appears to have caved in and payed him off to
drop the suit against them. Concentric on the other hand has filed a
counter-suit against him.

The case was originaly filed in, I believe NC state court. So was the
counter-suit. Concentric is filing to have Steve Winter's suit nullified
with prejudice. I'm not sure how NC law works but this apparently means
that, if successful, Winter can never again file the same suit against
Concentric ever again. He would also have to pay for both lawers and
pay triple damages.

The case has now been moved to U.S. District court.



... Bigot: won't think.  Fool: Can't Think.  Slave: dare not
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 134/67 1 17 153/752 716 920 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Doug Lee
|To:   All
|Sub:  Why God never got Tenure
|Date: 15 Dec 96  03:29:06
EID:1d84 218f1ba0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32b5ef5a
WHY GOD NEVER GOT TENURE
========================

y1. He had only one major publication
y2. It was in Hebrew
y3. It had no references
y4. It was not published in a refereed journal
y5. Some doubt He wrote it Himself
y6. He may have created the world, but what has He done since?
y7. The scientific community can't replicate His results
y8. He never got permission from the ethics board to use human subjects
y9. When one experiment went awry, He tried to cover it up by drowning
the subjects
y10. He rarely came to class and told the students to "just read the book"
y11. Some say He had his Son teach the class
y12. He expelled His first two students
y13. His office hours were irregular and sometimes held on a mountain top
y14. Although there were only 10 requirements, most students failed the
course.



... Bigot: won't think.  Fool: Can't Think.  Slave: dare not
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 134/67 1 17 153/752 716 920 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 16 Dec 96  21:13:04
EID:1a01 2190a9a0
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 c21df6d9
MSGID: 1:229/622 32b5bc84
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Marilyn Burge to Dave Hamilton:

MB> I think in this regard, Islam is a better way of looking at it;
MB> it suggests that the bad things we do DO matter, regardless of
MB> what we may later do to compensate (you only get just so many
MB> strikeouts in a game).

Further, these for-or-against actions are with respect to other
people, not just a glowing admiration of god with a promise to
try to do better real soon now. I like a system that suggests that
what one does today counts for today. I think christianity
undermines personal accountability completely.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Murder 4 billion
|Date: 17 Dec 96  13:38:30
EID:d59d 21916cc0
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 00431651
MSGID: 1:229/622 32b6a27a
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of David Worrell to Dave Hamilton:

DW> Why is it that my vocabulary seems to shrink as I get older? That's
DW> probably a government conspiracy, too.

It's that coloured electricity they use for traffic lights.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Clearly NOT Shown.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  14:25:40
EID:90e4 21917320
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8642348e
MSGID: 1:229/622 32b6ae19
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Laurie Appleton to Dave Hamilton:

LA>  Karl is rude, intolerant, bigotted and arrogant.

So what? This a debate echo. To my knowledge he's never
even been accused of lying. You have been demonstrated
as a liar time and time again.

LA> (The Origin of Species Revisited, W.R. Bird, 1991, Vol. 1,
LA> p. 9)

And we should believe Bird and ignore what the court itself
says? We should believe you when you refuse to check your
sources?

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Mimi Milstein
|Sub:  Execute Her ? [2/2]
|Date: 17 Dec 96  14:30:20
EID:c081 219173c0
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2b556c9e
MSGID: 1:229/622 32b6afb4
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Mimi Milstein to Dave Hamilton:

DH>> Is unlimited health care available to all South African
DH>> citizens? 

MM> As 'unlimited' as a 3rd world country can make it stick,
MM> ie nobody get kicked out of a state hospital due to lack
MM> of money. 

Then I stand corrected and apologize for the error.

MM> Waiting time is a different matter, but so it is
MM> in 'Welfare Heaven', Scandinavia. I just heard personal
MM> horror stories from some visiting Danish cousins.

It can get pretty bad in Canada, too.

MM> I really don't know what to say to you.... Nelson Mandela not
MM> attempting to represent ALL South Africans??? Well, maybe not
MM> the really rabid right wing - but everybody else???
MM> I can't imagine what kind of newspapers you read.

I understood that Nelson Mandela represented the population of
South Africa. I was labouring under the misapprehension that
his acquisition of leadership was going to be a lengthy process.

I read the Globe and Mail, and sadly have watched its quality
decline over the decades. Most of what I hear about SA literally
comes from you, and I welcome it. Thank you for straightening out
my impressions.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Dave Hamilton
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  Gleeps and Demons
|Date: 17 Dec 96  14:38:18
EID:6244 219174c0
REPLY: 1:261/1137 901003cb
MSGID: 1:229/622 32b6b083
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
CJ>         Why didn't Jim Staal think of that?

Because Jim Staal has never had an original thought in his life.

--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Mimi Milstein
|To:   All
|Sub:  Alignment list
|Date: 17 Dec 96  12:06:24
EID:9c81 219160c0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2b6d49b1
REPLY: 1:105/40.667 dc81e13d
Name         Location            Alignment             In the 'Smoke'
----         --------            ---------             -------------
Dan Ceppa:
NW of Nowhere, WA   Slighty askew,
Since birth just
because it annoys fundys

Lynda Bustilloz:
Southern Maryland   chaotic unique        1 1/2 years

Mike Hardy:
Mobile, Alabama     former evangelical    2 years
Christian turned
Open-minded agnostic.

Katherine Wintersnight:
El Paso, TX, USA    Wiccan                1 1/2 years

Mimi Milstein:
Randburg, S.Africa  Agnostic       <1 year

--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/21 9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Mimi Milstein
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  feed
|Date: 17 Dec 96  12:25:11
EID:00ba 21916320
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2b6d49b2
REPLY: 1:105/40.667 9cde3596
Hello Dan!

Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to Dave Hamilton:

DC> On (15 Dec 96) Dave Hamilton got back to Dan Ceppa...

DH>         bbs.sbase.com (206.248.38.226)

DH> It's a free BBS, carries HS from a direct satellite
DH> feed. Has Bluewave to download/upload the packets.

DC> Thanks for the info.  Looks like I'm being pushed more and 
DC> more into getting an internet account.  

I just wonder if HS, now that an email-list is added, will
develop into something as confused and 'overquoting' as some
other echoes which took that route ???

... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/21 9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  ken wiens kill homos!
|Date: 16 Dec 96  11:38:51
EID:99f3 21905cc0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b534db
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A4FAEC2
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Judith!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Judith say to Curtis:

JB> Have you seen the WWN lately? Headline...4 Horsemen of Apocalypse Spotted
JB> in California Desert.

JB> With a picture. But I recognize the picture. It's from one of the S&S
JB> movies. Red Sonya, Beastmaster or one of the Conan flicks (can't remember
JB> which)

My eldest said Beastmaster.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... When everyone thinks alike, then everyone is stupid.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Not shampoo, the real Pooh! (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Don Martin
|Sub:  "flat earth" town
|Date: 16 Dec 96  11:42:27
EID:c21c 21905d40
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b535f3
REPLY: 1:261/1137.0 32b3ddc8
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Don!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Don say to Richard:

RS>> If so, I submit that most Xtians would make a fine and hearty
RS>> meal, and maybe a nice soup afterwards.  Most of the ones I
RS>> know are pretty clean-living, and thusly good stock for
RS>> dinner.

DM>     Actually, I have long recommended a brace of Mormon missionaries
DM> for the family freezer each fall. They are young, well-exercized
DM> (bicycling), eat wholesome foods, and refrain from noxious
DM> substances like caffeine and tobacco. What more could a gastronome
DM> ask? They are the Kobe Beef of mankind.

Too much testosterone, dear.  They aren't allowed to sleep with women, remember.
Although I have heard that many missionary companions go on to be life time
"friends".

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... I can't remember which taglines are stolen and which I wrote!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Pass the Cup of crimson wonder (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  TEEN PREGNANCY & WORK
|Date: 16 Dec 96  11:55:37
EID:a1a4 21905ee0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b53a1d
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Roger!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Roger say to Gwenny:

GTP>> No, we need to get back to the extended family.  I have been doing
GTP>> some seriuos rethinking of some of my attitudes lately (esp. the one
GTP>> that said "kids should leave home at eighteen and never return") and
GTP>> we now have plans in the works for at least two additions to the
GTP>> house.  I

RH> I came to the same conclusion some time ago. There is no way any of
my
RH> kids can live in Boulder on their own. One moved to Loveland, one
RH> shares an apartment with several friends and the remaining one lives
RH> with us.

Tell me about it.  Lady Soltahr is trying to raise two youngins on her own
and get her Masters at the same time.  I don't know how she does it.  I
wish we had a little money to spare to send to her.

GTP>> am planning for at least two of my children to live with me their
GTP>> entire lives. . .and their SO and offspring IF they have them.  This
GTP>> would allow one spouse to work and one to stay home.  It will also
GTP>> give mothers a  break from their kids.  It would give the one(s)
GTP>> (Suzanne

RH> I also concluded that after living with two of my sons in the house
RH> and their assorted friends (who ALSO lived here part of the time) that
RH> I didn't LIKE the arrangement all that much.

Ahhh, but I REALLY like my kids and I adore their friends.  Besides, we
have it set up so we don't really have to interact with theolder ones. .
.ie, they have their own space.  So far, so good.  Now, if I can just get
the youngest son through puberty without hurting him  I will die a happy
woman.

GTP>> Two jobs are almost required for middle class these days.  Even with

RH> Guaranteed. My son in Loveland has a roommate, soon to be displaced
RH> by his female and her two children. She works too and together they
RH> just get by.

Loveland is expensive, too, isn't it?  Heck, I feel sorry for folks who
rent. Our mortgage payment is $744 a month and includes taxes and insurance.
I don't know anyone living in a decent house or apartment in a decent part
of Colorado Springs who is paying less than $800/mth.  And up here in Woodland
Park we could easily get $1000/mth if we rented our house to someone else.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Jesus loves you.  But then again, so does Barney.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  LDS Papal Baptisms, Revis
|Date: 17 Dec 96  07:48:49
EID:45bc 21913e00
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b6508a
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b43
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Sean!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Sean say to Gwenny:

>> SM> Overweight men, who have always been so (like me), who are successes
>> SM> at finding companions, exist about as much as the Christers'
>> SM> God-thingie.

>> So what is Wild?  He was nearing the three hundred mark when I married
>> him (wanna see that handfasting pictures??).

SM> I'd rather see his leathers from back then......   [d&rg]

He still wears 'em.  He may have lost weight because of how bad his heart
is, but he didn't lose that buddha belly.  

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Woe betide the silly Priestess who tries to second-guess her Goddess!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Not shampoo, the real Pooh! (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Jim Staal
|Sub:  fundy clown
|Date: 17 Dec 96  07:50:17
EID:0e8f 21913e40
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b650dd
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ae8fa386
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Jim!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Fredric say to Jim:

JS>> Ha! I laugh you to scorn!
ML>> Ha! We laugh at your idiocy.
JS>> A bit of an MPD problem, Herr Doktor?

dc>> Wrong, Jimbo.  I join Marty in his laughter at your idiocy.

FR> Me too.  I'm laughing at you too, Jim.

Me, too.  That makes four.  That is definitely a "we".

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Get *really* stoned! Drink wet cement!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Quentin Fai
|Sub:  End Times are upon us!  Again.  And again.  And again.  And again.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  07:51:54
EID:3281 21913e60
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b66569
REPLY: 1:358/1 4a95a1a3
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Quentin!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Quentin say to Fredric:

FR>> Some of them wait for a "rapture;" others don't.  I don't think Mormon
FR>> cultists do.  They're still waiting for the mass starvation that their
FR>> masters have been selling them so that they can justify the huge
FR>> survivalist food storage scam.

QF> So, that's why every Mormon I know has a massive stockpile of food in
their
QF> basements, as well as why they seem so obsessed with canning equipment.
QF> Do you know any details about how they believe this mass starvation
is
QF> going to come about?

It's not really a "mass starvation" as a time of political and societal
chaos into which the Mormon hierarchy can step with food and communications.
They believe "the constitution will hang by a thread" and the priesthood
will rescue it and the USA, becoming rulers through the gratitude of the
populace. As with all prophecies, the when is subject to interpretation,
but I know that the current generation of fanatic believers think it will
happen in their lifetime. (again, every generation believes that since time
of Jeshua when he promised that there were "those standing here" who would
still be alive at his return.) (The LDS believe that that prophesy has been
fulfilled as the disciple in question became immortal and still walks the
earth helping humanity)

One of the things that kept me in the church so long is that I joined the
church believing that the collapse of society was inevitable.    Since
I was a little child I'm been anxious about where the world is going.  (An
attitude probably not helped by having read things like _Alas Babylon_ and
_Farnham's Freehold_.  )      I still like to keep a couple of weeks
food around and have plans to build a nice root cellar for storing even
more.  I still think it wouldn't hurt, given society's repeated attempts
to kill off humans. . .no deities needed.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Do you suppose incest is the reason we have fundamentalists?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Brett Johnson
|Sub:  Sola Scriptura
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:01:15
EID:a90f 21914020
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b65809
REPLY: 1:221/203 08fe0b39
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Brett!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Brett say to Glen:

BJ> John 3:16, of course is where we get the "loving God" stuff...

BJ> I'm not a parent, but could only imagine the love one would have, to
see
BJ> their child suffer, so as to save those who typically don't give you
the
BJ> time of day.

I am a parent.  I wouldn't call it love to set up a Universe in which the
torture and death of animals and people are the only way to atone for making
mistakes.  I would say that it was a capricious, vicious, evil god that
demands blood as an offering.  Remember, you all claim he made the rules,
so that means he caused death, and pain, and sorrow.  I don't call that
love.

BJ> Oh yes...I like to think I'm a pretty nice guy. :)

Your opinion, of course.

BJ> As for being "jealous"...is not a husband jealous for his wife, not
BJ> tolerating her to share in the bed of another?

Only the immature perverts (who, incidentally, are probably off sharing
someone else's wife's bed).  Monogamy is NOT a natural part of primate behavior.
Promiscuity, as some call it, is a normal part of primate behavior, with
some of the smaller primate females taking a dozen or more mates a day during
estrus.  There was an interesting article in one of the science magazines
a couple of years ago that compared penis size to "promiscuity" of females.
The larger, proportionally, the penis on the male, the more different mates
a female took and the more often the male mated.  The gorilla, which mates
very infrequently and where the females are as close to monogamous a females
get naturally, has the smallest penis of all primates.  Spider monkeys and
the like, with the dozen mates a day, have the largest.  Humans fall in
between, allowing that a human female might naturally take several mates
during her fertile time.  I know I could easily accomodate several lovers
during my fertile time. 

Another article I read, in the Goldsboro News Argus about six years ago,
said that a study of human sexual behavior had produced stats that indicated
that as many as 80% of all human children were not the offspring of the
male who thought he was the father.   It seems that human females have
adopted more subtle means to accomplish what other primate females do. .
.select a male to protect them (sometimes one dominate male to dozens of
females) and then mate with any male they chose.  There was a story about
mandrills on Discovery recently where the females didn't like the new dominant
male, so they went up in the trees (where he couldn't follow because of
his size) and copulated with the younger, smaller males right in front of
him. . .much to his unhappiness.

BJ> Well, the relationship of God and His own, is typically spoken of in
a
BJ> marital fashion.  God is jealous for His own, as a husband for His
BJ> wife.

And you still deny that your god is screwing you.  Amazing.

BJ> This is why in the book of the prophet Hosea, we see the adultery of
BJ> the prophet's wife, being compared with the idolatry of the
BJ> Israelites.

Isn't that the one that took a harlot (possibly a sacred harlot of the Goddess)
as a wife.  He got what he deserved if was thinking he was going to interfere
with her right to worship the Lady as she chose.

BJ> If God were not jealous, it would show a lack of affection, not the
BJ> contrary.

Jealousy is a dysfunctional reaction caused by insecurity.  If your god
is jealous it is because he is afraid (quite rightly) that he is not the
best god and you will find out and leave him.  My husband is not jealous
because he is secure in our relationship and my love for him and knows that
any other male in my life is for entertainment value and I won't leave him.
If your god were even as mature as my husband (terribly scary thought, that
), he wouldn't be so afraid.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Never give your real address to entities you've just met on the astral.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Not shampoo, the real Pooh! (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Brett Johnson
|Sub:  2 Corinthians 9:13
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:22:13
EID:3477 219142c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b65874
REPLY: 1:221/203 08fe0b3d
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Brett!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Brett say to Marty:

ML>  CG>> Any Christian has to be wary of claiming miraculous cures,
ML>  CG>> savings, etc. simply because 'Acts of God' are very rare.
ML>>
ML>> So rare, in fact, as to not exist.

BJ> You know this to be a fact, I'm guessing?

I expect he knows it to be a valid hypothesis that is supported by the evidence.

BJ> Do you know anything about Lourdes, France?

Yeppers, AND televangelists, tent preachers, faith healers, etc.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... What's 13 witches in a hot tub??  A self cleaning coven.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Brett Johnson
|Sub:  "Sin" mythology: The first evil ideo
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:23:38
EID:ee06 219142e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b659bc
REPLY: 1:221/203 08fe0b3e
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Brett!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Brett say to Fredric:

BJ> But your remark about sin being a "destructive ideology" is something
worth
BJ>  looking into.

BJ> St.Paul, defines sin as "missing the mark."

Saul probably never hit the mark except for being a misogynist pervert.

BJ> Now I don't know about you, but I see plenty of sadness in this world.
BJ> Not to mention futility.  A world of suffering.  We westerners, are
BJ> somewhat sheltered from the hardships most people are born with.  But
BJ> even our lives are overshadowed by this same darkness.

Only if we allow it.

BJ> Most suffering, comes from our own negative choices, or those of
BJ> others. We can label this; we Christians call it "sin".

No, the suffering comes from the guilt of being told you are a sinner. 
My children, although raised Mormon, were raised without guilt.  Now, if
one of them does something wrong, it is not uncommon for them to come and
tell me what they did (usually something like the time Matt was goofing
around and broke the broom), secure that the discipline will be fair and
probably non-existant if they are honest and regret their mistake.  At their
age I would have either tried to hide my mistake or gotten hysterical with
fear, because I knew that even if it was an honest mistake I would be punished
severely. . .no forgiveness at my house nor from the god I was being taught
about.  Remember, according to the beliefs I was raised with, my being molested
was only what I deserved as a sinner.

BJ> I don't see what's so unsound in this thinking.

It is unsound to make natural human behavior "sinful" and extract unreasonable
fines for it.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Vegetarians eat vegetables.  Beware of humanitarians!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Jesus needed...
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:29:47
EID:553d 219143a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b65af1
REPLY: 1:3603/210 09694947
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, ROBERT!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
ROBERT say to Jim:

JS>>>> Karen, as God the father is spirit, He would neither have
JS>>>> nor have need of a penis. As Jesus Christ is God in the flesh,
JS>>>> He certainly had need for and indeed did possess one.

RC>>> And what, pray tell, do you believe he "had need" of one for?
JS>>> How about discharging urine?

RC>> No penis is required for half the human species to do that.
RC>> Try again.

JS>> Try checking out the personal pronoun used by the person above?

RC> So why 'he' and not 'she' in the first place?

It really doesn't matter.  A male doesn't NEED a penis to urinate, ask any
eunuch.  Males creatures that don't need to get the sperm into the female
don't have penises.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Barbara Grey needs a new coat - one with sleeves that buckle in back!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: American Thuggee Militia -- Knot a Problem (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  jesus needed...
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:34:18
EID:e7c1 21914440
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b65b3f
REPLY: 1:207/212      792aeed2
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Karen!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Karen say to Jim:

JS>> you believe _she_ 'had need' of one for.' _She_ wouldn't need a penis
JS>> to rid _her_ body of same. Jesus Christ was a male human. As such,
He
JS>> did
JS>> indeed need a penis to discharge urine.

KD> And why did he need to be a male human?

Because the Jews have a patriarchal religion and Saul of Tarsus was a woman-hater.


My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... I love to snatch kisses!  (Did I say that right?)
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Joe Shedlock
|Sub:  Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:35:43
EID:4012 21914460
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b65c20
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32b4affb
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Joe!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Joe say to Don:

JS>         I beg to differ about whether such teachings are part of the
JS>  culture.  Some aspects of Catholicism restrict the property
JS>  rights of an individual to basically the amount of property necessary
to
JS>  support his family in comfort.  Beyond that, he has no "moral" right
to
JS>  excess property.  So if Ecks takes a loaf or bread from Bill Gates'
JS>  cupboard to feed himself and his starving family, this might be considered
JS>  justified under Catholic teaching.  It becomes a matter of semantics
JS>  whether such a taking is "stealing" if Gates has excess property
JS>  that he has no "moral" right to.  Put another way, "theft" is defined
JS>  as *UNJUST* appropriation of another's property, and this sort of taking
JS>  would not be considered "theft" because not unjust. I can quote from
JS>  some Catholic texts if that would really interest you.

Yes, I find this interesting. . .and fair.

JS> Now, you may think that this position is crazy, wrong, etc., but it
JS> exists.  It appears to have resulted in certain laws in Italy in the
JS> 20th century which gave the poor the right to enter upon the lands of
JS> the rich and pick up those crops or remains after the harvest (second
JS> harvest). Rich landowners hired Mussolini and his Fascists to prevent
JS> the poor from exercising these rights--at least if the filmed
JS> biography of Mussolini is to be believed.  Also, this position seems
JS> to have influenced the political program of Huey Long during the
JS> Depression, who said a man had the right to be a millionaire, but no
JS> one had the right to be a multimillionaire.

These "rights" are from the OT.  Look in Leviticus.  For example, read Ruth.
Ruth "gleans" in the fields after the workers (and the master tells the
workers to leave extra fro her).  Also, the fruits of a fallow field or
orchard belonged to the beasts and the poor.

JS> Again, you may think that this is wrong, silly, crazy, etc., but it
JS> exists and is a part of history.

No, it makes complete sense.  What doesn't make sense is anyone hoarding
all that wealth and being unwilling to share.

JS> There's much about Catholicism that is anti-capitalist if taken
JS> seriously.

What makes you think the Catholicism and Captialism have anything in common?

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... GOVT.SYS corrupt: (A)ssassinate, (R)ebel, (I)mpeach?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  purpose and ethics
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:39:27
EID:467f 219144e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b65c66
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A544397
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Michael!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Michael say to Jesse:

SQ> JJ>> God is the source for righteousness.  God is the
SQ> JJ>> ultimate concern.

SQ>> And the evidence for that is...what?

JJ>> Your demands for evidence make you just another
JJ>> fundamentalist,  Stevie.

MH>  No, they make him sensible. Your protestations suggest you know you
MH>  have none.

Good gods, they're right.  You have moderated.  Welcome aboard, Mike.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  Wolff still missing those
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:41:35
EID:54c7 21914520
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b65cde
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A544399
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Michael!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Michael say to Al:

MG>> Isn't she the one who was on Letterman one night and showed him her
MG>> tits while dancing ont he table?

AS>> Yeah, as his "birthday present", I believe.

MH>  I very much enjoyed one of my recent birthday presents.

You got tits for your birthday?  

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Remember:  reality is the leading cause of stress!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Richard Smith
|Sub:  Why do you NEED to be sav
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:45:10
EID:638f 219145a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b65dbd
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b4bda95
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Richard!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Richard say to Judith:

JB>> What the hell are sponge cats? Never heard of them.
JB>> Why won't you answer the questions asked of you? Afraid
JB>> you'll have to actually THINK in order to formulate a reply?

RS>  Nah . . . too much LDS in the sixties, judging from the
RS>  nonsense he replies with . . .

There were too many Morons, um Mormons, in the sixties.  Hell, there's too
many now.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Call 1-800-Astarte for all your in-home Goddess needs.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: American Thuggee Militia -- Knot a Problem (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Militia lunatics - part 2 of 5
|Date: 17 Dec 96  08:48:50
EID:53ca 21914600
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b660c2
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 0062b545
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, David!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
David say to Fredric:

FR>> right.  There is no "natural fortress" against _anyone_ by
FR>> anyone -- unless you're NORAD and burried deep under a
FR>> mountain and never come out.

DW> 50 megaton warheads make nice mountain levelers. :)

Or we could just wait until all their systems fail.  That place is ANCIENT.
I hear the main computers aren't even inside anymore, because everything
was out-of-date when they put it in.

I live about 15 miles north of NORAD and I used to live right in it's shadow
(I could see the front entrance from my backporch).

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... There are times when I long for a Klingon woman. * Worf
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  stargoat crap.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  09:03:55
EID:2220 21914860
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b66226
REPLY: 1:261/1137 90068d10
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Curtis!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Curtis say to Jim:

CJ>>> That's the criterion you gave above!
CJ>>> No, he's not one of ours.  He follows the anti-God of your
CJ>>> shrunken pantheon.

JS>> He's not one of ours. Ours follow God. He must be one of yours. BTW,
JS>> what is the meaning of this 'shrunken pantheon' remark?

CJ>         Three gods instead of a numerous pantheon.

That's what they get for leaving out the goddesses.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Asimov of Borg:  The Three Laws Of Assimilation.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Faith is wishing not to know what is true. (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Sean McCullough
|Sub:  execute her ?
|Date: 17 Dec 96  09:09:56
EID:556d 21914920
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32b6638c
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org af958b3c
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Sean!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Sean say to Richard:

SM> Jim cannot believe that anyone would turn down the chance to become
SM> married, no matter how unreasonably based.

SM> Never mind the fact that most humans ARE, alas, better off by
SM> themselves....

Hey, speak for yourself, dude.  I'm better off with three or four men to
take care of me. 

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... LSD melts your mind, not in your hand.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Not shampoo, the real Pooh! (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Steve Quarrella
|To:   Mimi Milstein
|Sub:  Alignment list
|Date: 17 Dec 96  17:55:40
EID:c3c3 21918ee0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32b6dec6
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2b6d49b1
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Mimi!

Martis dies December 17 1996, Dixit Mimi Milstein ad All:

MM> Name         Location            Alignment             In the 'Smoke'
MM> -+--         -+--+---            -+--+--+-             -+--+--+--+--

Steve Quarrella   Rowlett, TX  USA    Intolerant of idiocy  Since its birth


--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia:  "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005

|From: Don Martin
|To:   Nate Cookson
|Sub:  Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 17 Dec 96  10:33:14
EID:4c2b 21915420
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32b6cc29
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32b567b8
Nate Cookson said ""flat earth" town" to Don Martin,
adding:

DM>     But your "typical answer" sneer betrays a lack of reading
DM> comprehension on your part: I am not now, nor have I ever
DM> been, one who believes in gods of _any_ variety, much less as
DM> a "`sugar daddy' that will come down", etc. Whatever made
DM> you suppose that I was? Perhaps the phrase "Imaginary
DM> Superfriend In Charge" led you to imagine that this was some
DM> being I _prayed_ to? (a hearty chorus of giggles runs 'round
DM> the echo). Learn to read before attempting insults: failing
DM> to do so is, incidentally, yet _another_ example of human
DM> stupidity and arrogance.

NC> Nah.. wasn't any of that, it must have been that nasal wine of
NC> yours that lead me to think that you would believ in God if He
NC> took care of the "4 Billion" plus you were complaining about...

Your reading ability goes beyond laughable to a thread
of its own. In my initial post, I stated a fact (widespread
human misery) and suggested that that fact served as
evidence for two different and mutually exclusive
conclusions, either:
A sadistic god exists.
or
No god exists.

From this you conclude that I would instantly sign on
board some religion if those bellies were suddenly to fill.
Here are my original words; please be so good as to indicate
which of them support your interpretation and your inference
that my tone of voice was a whine:

M>     The presence of some 4+ billion people on earth
M> living at or near the poverty/starvation line is highly
M> suggestive that either nobody is there to give a shit,
M> or the Imaginary Superfriend In Charge _likes_ it that
M> way.

DM> Superfriend In Charge" led you to imagine that this was some
DM> being I _prayed_ to? (a hearty chorus of giggles runs 'round
DM> the echo). Learn to read before attempting insults: failing
NC>
NC> hearing voices again? Tsk, Tsk... T's the first sign of losing your
NC> mind... Or it could just be your having delusions of grandeur...
NC> either way you must really enjoy talking with your self...

I know the participants of this echo and how well they
enjoy a good laugh. I expect that they may be enjoying one
now.


DM>     Yep. The stupidity and arrogance that makes birth
DM> control and abortion illegal/hard to get for religious
DM> reasons is a biggie. The stupidity and arrogance that

NC> "religious reasons" !? That's a laugh.! Since the
NC> medical profession is finding more and more reasons to
NC> advise women that abortions can have long term medical
NC> complications to women that get them.

Pray be so good as to cite the peer-reviewed medical
journal in which these long-term medical complications of
abortions are listed. Last I heard, _legal_ abortion was a
great deal less likely to kill or injure a woman than giving
birth, but perhaps you have turned up some new evidence on
the matter.

NC> .but hey! as long as it isn't you being the one aborted
NC> you could care less...

The phrase denoting indifference is "could _not_ care
less", but actually, I care rather more than that. When the
alternative for the child is three years of misery
terminated by starvation, I applaud its abortion.
Apparently, you do not.

... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 261/1000 1137 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Jesse Jones
|Sub:  Scortched scotch.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  07:10:51
EID:74a0 21913940
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 6c823a06
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 15abdcbc
On (16 Dec 96) Jesse Jones wrote to Marilyn Burge...

JJ> Thanks for the lecture, Marilyn. Unfortunately, the last time
JJ> I attempted a dialogue with you, on your posting of a
JJ> humanist statement of principles you had copied from
JJ> somewhere, your response was, in effect, yeah, who asked you.

Not so. As I rightly recall, you attempted to turn the principles
into a sermonette by quoting Bible scripture in response.

And, that aside, I'm hardly the only person here who has values,
so even if what you imply above were true, it would hardly justify
your attitude toward everyone here. We are not an amorphous mass;
we're individuals.

Seems strange to me that my fundy friend has no trouble whatsoever
discussing values with me. In fact, he's the first person I turn
to when I have a moral dilemma of some kind. 

Doesn't that make you wonder what the difference is between his
approach and yours, and exactly why his approach works so well
while yours is such an abysmal failure?


... Awright, who peed in the gene pool?

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Fredric Rice
|To:   All
|Sub:  Holy Hatred: Religious Conflicts of the 1990s, James A. Haught
|Date: 16 Dec 96  22:14:10
EID:7436 2190b1c5
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet af963a99
PID: FM 2.02
Holy Hatred: Religious Conflicts of the '90s
James A. Haught, ISBN 0-87975-922-4
Prometheus Books
59 John Glenn Drive
Amherst, New York.
14228-2197

It is a bitter irony that today millions who claim to be religious --
those who counsel peace, advocate the community of humankind, and voice
concern for the welfare of others -- often perpetrate madness, mayhem,
and murder on a grand scale, and all in the name of some "rightous" cause.
It would seem that the Crusades, Inquisitions, and Witch hunts of our dark
and blood-drenched past have taught us nothing.  In just the first few
years of the 1990s the world has witnessed Sikh violence against Muslims
in India; Serbian Orthodox Christians against Croatian Catholics and
Bosnian Muslims in the shattered Yugoslavia; the extremism of Muslim
holy laws throughout Africa and the Middle East; Catholics against
Protestants in Northern Ireland; the Branc Davidian inferno in Waco,
Texas; Hindues and Buddhists engageing in violent clashes in Sri Lanka;
and the United States' first real experience of international religious
terrorism on its own shores -- namely, the bombing of the World Trade
Center in New York City.

These are but a few of the horrific episodes that make so many people
question the benign message of modern religion.

In Holy Hatred: Religious Conflicts of the 1990s, renowned journalist
James A. Haught, author of the widely acclaimed Holy Horrors: An
Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness, demonstrates
in gruesome detail that humanity in general and the world's religions
in particular have learned little from the brutal mistakes of their
predecessors.  Whether it be masses of Hindues storming the gates of
a Muslim mosque in India; a car bombing in Belfast; the shotgun
murder of an abortion-clinic physician in Florida; "ethnic clensing"
at the hands of Orthodox Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina; or the bounties
placed on the heads of those who dare question the iron law of Islam;
the frightening effects of "fractious faith" can be seen in virtually
every part of the globe.  But before ational people can join together
to develope constructive answers to the conflicts of religious
tribalism, which divide nations, communities, and families, the
gripping realities of recent years must be acknowledged.

Vividly illustrated with compelling photographs and valuable maps,
Holy Hatred offers a sobering chronicle of the many acts of cruelty,
molestation, and slaughter of innocents that humanity has permitted
to take place in the name of one religion or another.  Included are
reports on incidents in twenty five nations: Afghanistan, Bangladesh,
Cypres, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon,
Libya, Kuwait, Nigeria, Northern Ireland, Pakistan, the Philippines,
Saudi Arabia, Somalia, the former Soviet Union, Sei Lanka, Sudan,
Trinidad, Turkey, and the United States.

Whether as willing participants or as casual observers, we have
permitted rge bloodshed to continue; it is up to each of us to stop
it.

---
* Origin: Star Goat loves each and every one of you! (Rev 7:17) (1:218/890)
SEEN-BY: 124/9005 218/890
PATH: 218/890


|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Scientific Theories.
|Date: 17 Dec 96 13:17:00
EID:cbc1 21916a20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b6e4cf1
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to Shelby Sherman <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

LA> They would surely have known that they would have done
LA> no better than they did in that decade of debates with the
LA> Creationists in the 1970's, would they?

But Laurie, you told us that it is absurd to think that those debates 
meant anything:

LA> You seem to have some absurd idea that which ever one
LA> wins a "one-off" debate proves their case.

I wonder how many more references to these debates I'll find in this 
packet.

Take care.
... They jest at scars that never felt a wound. (Shakespeare)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Your Drug Problems.
|Date: 17 Dec 96 13:17:00
EID:1c6e 21916a20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b6e4d01
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to John Musselwhite <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

LA> So you admit that evolutionists failed miserably in that
LA> decade of debates against persons that YOU regard as being
LA> as "low" as that. How fascinating. So how "low" does that

Nobody denies that evolutionists lost most of those stage show "debates".

Everyone, INCLUDING YOU says that those debates meant nothing.

LA> You seem to have some absurd idea that which ever one
LA> wins a "one-off" debate proves their case.

Absolutely absurd.  So why do you keep bringing it up so often?

2 so far today.  How many more?

Take care.

... Methinks my own soul must be a bright invisible green. (Thoreau)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Blunder of First Order!
|Date: 17 Dec 96 13:17:00
EID:d9ff 21916a20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b6e4d11
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to John Musselwhite <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

LA> students being given "Balanced Treatment"? Why also did they
LA> admit that the Creation Scientists almost always WON those
LA> hundreds of open, public, scientific debates, against them?

You know why they won, it's been explained dozens of times, and even you

understand that it's absurd to put any importance on such debates:

LA> You seem to have some absurd idea that which ever one
LA> wins a "one-off" debate proves their case.

That's 3 so far today.  Continue Scan!

Take care.



... The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. (Thoreau)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Animals Needed!
|Date: 17 Dec 96 13:18:00
EID:5fc8 21916a40
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b6e4d21
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to Rick Mcfarlane <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

I note that you have deleted from the top of this note your claim that 
during the Flood, a few hardy specimens of each species of fish, whether

of fresh or salt water stocks, would have managed to adjust to the 
Flood conditions and survive, thereby avoiding extinction for the fish,

and removing the requirement that Noah take care of them.

By deleting this claim, you have left my response to it sitting out there

with no background.  Then you are free to pretend that I was talking 
about something different than I was really adressing.

It's called quoting out of context.  It's not honest when you do it to 
Gould, and it's not honest when you do it to me.

RM>   Sometimes.  Not always.  Not even most of the time.  I
RM> guess you've never heard of the passenger pigeon, or the
RM> dodo bird, or any of the thousands and thousands of other
RM> species that have recently gone extinct due to changes we
RM> have made to the environment - changes that are much smaller
RM> and less catastrophic than Noah's global flood.

RM>     Your attempt to shrug off this insurmountable
RM> difficulty with your "theory" is noted as clear evidence of
RM> your dogmatism and philosophical biases.

LA> You never seem to be short of a "strawman" argument, do
LA> you Rick? I guess that is all evolutionists really have left
LA> anyway! What on earth does extinction have to do with either
LA> evolutionism or creationism, except that it means that we
LA> must have FIRST had millions of animals before it was
LA> possible for some of them to become extinct!

The above is complete and unedited.  It is exactly how you began your note

to me.  You have removed the context of my remarks, and replaced it with
a 
different context that makes it appear that I was trying to say that 
extinctions in some way disprove Creationism.  

Nice try, but it won't work.  We were not discussing extinction 
in general, in spite of your editing to try to make it appear that way.
We were discussing a very specific consequence of your "Flood" hypothesis

- that in mixing all the salt and fresh water of the world together in a

calamatous event you would create an environment that was not suitable for

some or many of the fish species that are adapted exclusively to either

fresh or salt water.  

Such species should have gone extinct during the flood.  They didn't.  
You have no explanation for this FACT.  That's what extinction, in this

very specific case, has to do with Creationism.

Your attempt to weasel out of it, following hard on your attempt to shrug

it off, is a pretty good demonstration of the fact that you have no 
scientific response to it.  So once more, you fall back on the 
misrepresentation.

LA> Evolutionism, of course cannot even account for where
LA> these animals came from in the first place and all efforts
LA> to explain it have ended in frustration and confessions of
LA> ignorance! i.e.

Darwinian evolution, which you hate so much, presupposes the existence of

life.  It does not address where life came from, only how it changes 
through time.  

Talk about red herrings.

LA> 'A general review of prebiological evolutionary theories
LA> in 1988 by Klaus Dose concluded that "At present all
LA> discussions on prinicipal theories and experiments in the
LA> field either end in stalemate or in a confession of
LA> ignorance." Gerald Joyce's 1989 review article ended with
LA> the somber observation that origin of life researchers have
LA> grown accustomed to a "lack of relevant experimental data"
LA> and a high level of frustration.'

LA> (Darwin on Trial, Phillip E. Johnson, 1991. page.107.)

LA> How utterly appalling that must be for evolutionary

Not at all.  We don't claim to know everything, Laurie, so it's not 
appalling for us to admit that there are still things to learn. 

LA> dogmatists and bigots! My heart bleeds for you!  :-)

Only because you would personally find it appalling to have to admit that

there was something you don't know.  And that is really pitiful.

Take care.

... There's a difference between a philosophy and a bumper sticker. (Charl
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Quentin Fai
|Sub:  End Times are upon us!  Again.  And again.  And again.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  17:54:29
EID:eb93 21918ec0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 603d4222
REPLY: 1:358/1 4a95a1a3
On (14 Dec 96) Quentin Fai wrote to Fredric Rice...

QF> While puffing on a 'Fropstick, I felt Fredric utter:

FR> Some of them wait for a "rapture;" others don't.  I don't think Mormon
FR> cultists do.  They're still waiting for the mass starvation that their
FR> masters have been selling them so that they can justify the huge
FR> survivalist food storage scam.

QF> So, that's why every Mormon I know has a massive stockpile of food in
QF> their basements, as well as why they seem so obsessed with canning
QF> equipment. Do you know any details about how they believe this mass
QF> starvation is going to come about?

No, that isn't the reason for the food at all.  They are required
to have a year's supply of food so they can care for their family
in case of a calamity of any kind (i.e., prolonged unemployment,
nuclear attack, famine, debilitating physical conditions, etc.).


... (gentile smile) = Al Schroeder condescending to a Jew.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Marilyn Burge
|To:   Michael Hardy
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 17 Dec 96  17:58:30
EID:10a5 21918f40
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 4506669e
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A544392
On (15 Dec 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Al Schroeder...

MH> This raises larger philosophcal questions: If God is not
MH> involved in human affairs so inimately after all, why should
MH> we be so quick to buy the story of the Incarnation? The
MH> Hebrew God who shepherded his wayward people could plausibly
MH> be said to love them enough to become one of them and die in
MH> their stead. But if we understand that much of "God's"
MH> activity in the OT was simply a theological interpretation of
MH> events, of NATURAL events, that motivation evaporates.

MH> There's more, but this is enough for one post. (I like to
MH> keep them short.) :-)

MH> ... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.

MH> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20

Here's another angle on the Bible:

If you look at the Bible as a record of Man's
SEARCH for God, and his conclusions regarding
having found that God, it makes a log more
sense.  From this perspective, if there was a
devastating flood that wiped out all the crops
and killed scores of people who lived in a
lowland, it is easy to see that the oral record
of that event might lead the orator to the con-
clusion that a god of some kind had caused it
because he was pissed at something the society
or clan involved had done.  This would be even
more likely, if the narrator at some point also
thought that what the society had done was evil.

So, if you look at the stories in the Bible as
a record of the SEARCH for God, and if you
further see those stories as the narrator's
conclusions regarding the God he thought he had
found in the events, the stories make perfect
sense.  

While it is easy to see how ancient, unsophisti-
cated people could see god as having human traits,
there is no reason for us to make that same 
ignorant mistake in our search for god; we have
enough knowledge that they didn't have to where
we ought to know better.

There is no question in the minds of anyone who
dispassionately reads the OT and NT stories that
the two records are describing two mutually
exclusive gods in many respects.  The NT god was
totally benign compared to the OT god, not to
mention the fact that the NT god was much, much
kinder, more gentle, and much less inclined toward
vengeance, despite the fact that, looked at objec-
tively, he had just as much to be pissed off about.  

Looking at the Bible from that perspective takes
nothing away from it, but actually adds a great
deal of enrichment to the reading experience.


... If Jesus were born today, He'd surely refuse to become a Christian

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 105/40 330 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  "Atheists who do no good"
|Date: 17 Dec 96  06:06:31
EID:5633 219130c0
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15ad2ae7
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting STEVE QUARRELLA to JESSE JONES on 12-14-96

SQ>Ran into a fellow Detroiter tonight while working on our NT system.
SQ>He was in the office installing Banyan, and we got talking about
SQ>"home" and how, even though the place is a shithole, we miss certain
SQ>things like Vernors ginger ale, Sanders candy, the Detroit Tigers,
SQ>ex-Mayor Coleman Young, and having Canada right across the river.
SQ>Anyways, we did our business, and chatted a bit more when he went to
SQ>leave.  I remembered that I had one last can of Vernors sitting in
SQ>our company's refrigerator, and the gentleman made such a point of
SQ>missing the stuff (not having had it in five years), I knew what was
SQ>going to happen to that can of Vernors.  I happily handed it over and
SQ>"apologized" that I didn't have any Sanders candy to go with it.  He

SQ>walked out of the office like a kid on Christmas, and I have to admit

SQ>to being rather excited to have made someone so happy.

I am astounded that you and your fellow heathens would brag 
about such incidents as giving away your last can of Vernors -- the 
uniqueness of which, as a Detroit native, I readily embrace -- as 
supposed proof of your altruism.  Myself, I had a slow week, what with 
Christmas shopping and an unusual number of work-related emergencies.  
On Monday I spent two hours in a meeting with the City of Miami to 
persuade them, successfully, not to divert $80,000 from a homeless 
program.  That evening I spent two hours at my church packing gift bags

for poor children, and another hour on Wednesday evening on the same 
task.  Friday night I helped host a Christmas party for children from 
the migrant labor camps in South Dade County.  Sunday I spent three 
hours going to Homestead for a Christmas party at a small residential 
facility and hospice for families with AIDS, at which I played Santa 
Claus.

It was not a typical week.  Usually I would have fewer social 
occasions and spend more time on the business  of the nonprofit service

organizations with which I serve.  

But you will have to excuse me, please, if I do not get misty-
eyed hearing your story about giving away a bottle of pop. 

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/16/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Computers are like dogs. They can SENSE when you're afraid of them.

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Jesse Jones
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Faith & Works
|Date: 17 Dec 96  06:06:31
EID:59fc 219130c0
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15ad2ae8
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting DAVID WORRELL to JESSE JONES on 12-14-96

DW>In a message to Sally Springett you wrote:

DW> JJ> Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and
DW> JJ> this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--"

DW>(James 2:24 KJV)  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
DW>and not by faith only.

DW>(James 2:25 KJV)  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by
DW>works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out
DW>another way?

DW>(James 2:26 KJV)  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so
DW>faith without works is dead also.

Ah, the ancient conundrum.  Martin Luther wanted to remove the 
Book of James from the canon.  Myself, I like Dietrich Bonhoeffer's 
response:  Only those who believe are obedient, and only those who obey

believe.






DW>--- 
DW> * Origin: Mail Media. Do not expose to Flames! (1:123/67.7)

Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/16/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net

þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319 
Anyone know how to get chocolate out of the toaster?

--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317  Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 135/71 292 992 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Creation Review
|Date: 17 Dec 96 21:47:00
EID:cad5 2191ade0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b760e71
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to Rick Mcfarlane <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

RM>  23 posts from you to me in the last two days (not to
RM> mention dozens addressed to others)!  You sure can be
RM> prolific.

LA> Something wrong there. I did sent you 12 messages on
LA> 4/Dec/96, which is more than usual, for some reason - trying
LA> to catch up on my mail I suppose. Then I sent 6 messages on
LA> 10/Dec/96 and a further 5 messages on 13/Dec/96. That does
LA> add up to 23 as you said.

Somewhere between Australia and here things must get lumped together 
somehow.  Not unusual with Fido.

LA> Could it be that you only get your mail once every two
LA> weeks or there has been some accumulation that has nothing
LA> to do with either of us?

I get mail daily.  Many  days there is nothing at all from you to anyone.

Other days there are large volumes with your name in the "from" field. 

It was unusual to see two of those days back to back.

RM>    I'll do my best to reply to all of them, but, it will
RM> probably take several days.

LA> Not a problem. I will be glad of some respite!

I got to all of them in a couple of days.

RM>    Sorry for any delay, but I doubt that you look forward to
RM> my missives in any case.

LA> Naturally I am delighted, since despite your outrageous
LA> personal abuse, you are mostly reasonably polite about it -

I resent that comment about outrageous personal abuse.  I don't abuse you.

From time to time, I may point out the lack of integrity in your actions

here in this echo.  If you find that discomforting, perhaps a slightly 
higher standard of conduct on your part might correct the situation.

LA> if that is possible!  If you read some of the other mail
LA> that comes to me, you will understand what I am saying.

I've been getting the same sort of mail from the some of the same people

for a couple of years. 

LA> Since evolutionism often seems to be a slippery slide to
LA> Atheism,

  More like the slippery slide to truth.  (And don't misinterpret

that to mean that I think atheism is truth.  I think that evolution is 
demonstrated to be true.  If you can't make room for truth in your 
personal religious philosophy, you have a real problem.)

LA> then, when you get to the atheist end of the
LA> spectrum you find a number of respondents that can only be
LA> desribed as pure scum!

Some.  There are also some very reasonable atheist scum in here .

LA> Could that be a logical result of atheism?

Not likely. 

LA> Anyway, I
LA> have put your last batch of messages in a "hold" file for
LA> the time being, if that is what you wish - after a brief
LA> comment on this one!

That is not what I wish.  I was merely commenting that I would have 
trouble responding immediately to the sudden flurry of posts that had 
arrived at my inbox.

Send me as many notes as you wish, Laurie.  I will do my best to reply in

a timely fashion, as long as I continue to find the exchange amusing or

constructive.

LA> So I will leave it there for now and wait till you
LA> indicate that you wish to proceed further.

Proceed.

Take care.

... One planet...  One people....  Please!
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Opinions and Excuses.
|Date: 17 Dec 96 21:49:00
EID:041b 2191ae20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2b760e81
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to Andrew Masten <=-

Good morning, Laurie.

LA> You might be interested to know that Rick has complained
LA> that I am sending him so many messages that he would like a
LA> bit of a break, or something like that.

I hope you realize from my previous note that you have misinterpreted 
something there.  It was an offhand comment, not a complaint.  

LA> Mind you he claims to be a Christian

No I don't.  Don't you remember calling me a "cult member" in an earlier

exchange?  I am not a Christian.

LA> and is much less abusive than most others,

That part is definitely true.  I take just a tiny little bit of pride in

that.  But the standard set by many others in this echo isn't hard to beat.

LA> even if he often accuses me of LYING and of being a BLATANT LIAR!!

And even if he backs each and every accusation up with documented evidence.

Take care, Laurie.

... Action is eloquence.  -  Shakespeare
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a25 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 343/1 600 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Don Martin
|To:   Christian Hedemark
|Sub:  2 corinthians 9:13
|Date: 17 Dec 96  12:31:12
EID:be26 219163e0
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
PID: BWPCB2 4.01 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:261/1137.0 32b6f9d8
Christian Hedemark said "2 CORINTHIANS 9:13" to Karen Davis, adding:

KD> CH> But you fail at distinguishing the difference between Christ's
KD> CH> teachings and those purporting to have been Christians over time.

KD>Why should we need to?

CH> There are many false teachers!

You may like to imagine that none of us here have ever heard the
"not real, true Christians " claim before, but I fear you may be
the only one with any hopes for its originality.

KD>If Christianity is "the message" God meant us to have, it would not lead
KD>to any such twistings. On the other hand, if it helps some people,
KD>doesn't help others, and gets twisted by yet other individuals, it is
KD>just another religion, no better than any of the others.

CH> It does indeed get twisted. By some that don't know what they are
CH> talking about, and yet others that have their own agenda.

Ah, those dirty not real, true Christians  again. Will they
never cease?

CH> Satan loves to use scripture to mislead man.

Any nonBiblical evidence for the existence of this Satan chap?

CH> A prime example is in Mat 4:1-17    Particularly Mat 4:6

KD>The word of God would not be so amenable to twisting.

CH> If only your thoughts were true. But man can misconstrue anything he
CH> has heard. And man does.

You've been doing pretty well in this line so far, and I suspect
we may confidentally expect your continued performance meeting the
same high standards.

... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)

--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: MetroNet - Columbia, Maryland (1:261/1137)


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 261/1137 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Mimi Milstein
|Sub:  intelligent critters
|Date: 17 Dec 96  23:36:14
EID:3227 2191bc80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 92008bbb
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 16 Dec 96 01:45pm, MIMI MILSTEIN wrote to AL SCHROEDER:


AS>> (Heck, that might be the next  stop...homo gestalt,
AS>> in Theodore Sturgeon's phrase.)

MM>> I DO love "More than Human" :-)

I haven't read it since junior high, but it greatly
confirmed me in my wayward reading.

MM>> Sorry, has already been done - Fredric Brown's shortstory
MM>> "Come and Go Mad", c1949.
MM>> Can be found in the collection "Daymares", Lancer Books c1968

He usually does funny stuff, but that one had a quite
chilling end.
If you can find it (it does occasionally get reprinted),
try his novel "Martians Go Home!"  It's a riot.

AS>> I haven't really read as much of Brown as I should have,
AS>> although what I've read I've enjoyed. I'll look it up...

MM> There is also a good shortstory by Judith Merril, named AFAIK
MM> "Home Calling", which interacts stranded human children with
MM> alien 'Termites' - and very tender it is, indeed.

Bruce Sterling's also done an excellent short story about
humans interacting with an alien quasi-termite hive mind.


... This is the original of a copied tagline.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1441
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 261/1137 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  a god's diet of rape
|Date: 17 Dec 96  23:38:15
EID:1cdb 2191bcc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 92008c32
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>>> And obviously God approved of the sequel about how the
CJ>>> wives were suppled for the tribe of Benjamin?  The good old method
CJ>>> of wiping out everybody but virgin females?  "With this fist I
CJ>>> thee wed . . ."
CJ>>> Yep, your God *was* smiling on rapists.
AS>
AS>>  Nope. Notice the ironic ending of that passage, "In those days there
AS>>  was no king in Israel, and every man did as he pleased." I won't

CJ>> But was it disapproval?  Those were the last words of the
CJ>> entire book.  It doesn't say anything about God's disapproval.
CJ>> And was this clanarchy really disapproved by God?  The narrative
CJ>> picks up with Samuel; when his two appointment for judges were
CJ>> rejected and they asked him for a king (hey, did a true-blue
CJ>> prophet fuck up on his personnel choices?), they were warned
CJ>> against having the institution that would end this clanarchy.  Or
CJ>> was Samuel doing false prophesy then?

AS>  Don't know. But I don't think one can read "every man did as he
AS>  pleased" and square that with the rather--ah--controlling nature of
AS>  the Hebrew religion. Nor do I think you can say that there wasn't
AS>  disapproval of such, given the war that started over the gang-rape
of
AS>  the concubine.

It's a side-issue, but I think may want to give some
thought about whether or not Samuel may have been doing a false
prophesy with his choice for two judges.  You'll have to choose
among three choices:  1) God's prophet gave a bum steer about
saying the first two judges should be anointed; 2) God's prophet
thought the clanarchy should be continued; 3) he operated as a
true channel, but was God was playing Israel for a sucker.

Can there really have been divine disapproval for the clan
war against Benjamin? Note the very strong parallel to the
sparking incident to that of Sodom & Gemorrah (and what did God do
then)?  And was not the provisioning of wives exactly the same
method used by Moses and Joshua?  And would God have wanted the
tribe of Benjamin to die out, which was the purpose of the rape
expeditions?

CJ>>> And, for example, Mani?
AS>
AS>>  Hmmm. Refresh my memory, Curtis. I know Mani is the founder of
AS>>  Manichaerism, which basically set up Satan as a diety with full
AS>>  creative powers (or the evil equivelent thereof). Hence the reference
AS>>  to Manichearian  heresy, which means granting to the devil
AS>>  creative powers about on a par with God.  And we know he was a
AS>>  historical personage of the second century. But did his followers
AS>>  claim to have witnessed him resurrected? I don't recall much about
him
AS>>  offhand. Hope you get this, BTW. I'm posting off a different BBS.

CJ>> Nope, just the opposite.  They thought the serpent in the
CJ>> Garden of Eden was Christ.  And Mani signed his letters as an
CJ>> Apostle in Christ.  And he was a marytr himself, and his followers
CJ>> would be martyred by the Parthians, and the pagan Roman Empire,
CJ>> *and* the Christian Empire--and the religion would last nearly as
CJ>> long as the more "orthodox" Christian one.

AS>  Sure. Augustine was a Manicharean for awhile, wasn't he? Thanks for
the
AS>  info. He was a martyr, but nobody claimed he was resurrected? But there
AS>  have been many martyrs, Curtis. What I was looking for...what we had
in
AS>  the comparison before...were mythic figures like Heracles, and Osiris,
AS>  and others who died and were RESURRECTED. It doesn't sound like...from
AS>  your thumbnail sketch...that Mani fits the bill.

I hate to break it to, but I'm surely not the first:  your
resurrection of Jesus is an ahistorical fantasy.
Besides, Mani signed most of his stuff as "Apostle to
Christ," though he did regard himself as what the Baha'is would
call a "Manifestation."  And there was no need for Moses to be
resurrected, was there?

BTW, the term is "Manichean," as should not only be clear
from church history, the RL Fox book you're found of referring to,
and contemporary use of the term in politics.

CJ>> BTW--the Apostles never claimed to have witnessed the
CJ>> actual resurrection themselves.  The claim was to have seen a
CJ>> resurrected Jesus--and they seem to have been singularly inept
CJ>> about recognizing him on sight, hard to reconcile with a
CJ>> resurrected physical body.

AS>  True, they didn't see the actual rising of the body. Even if they
AS>  thought it was going to happen,I doubt if too many would be anxious
to
AS>  be sealed in a tomb with a rotting body. I use the terminology a

There's a supposed eyewitness account in Gospel of Peter
(though the latter claims that he did not suffer on the cross).
Now, are you going to do the usual fundy jig of claiming
"eyewitness accounts" while making sure of restricting them only
to the Big Four?

AS>  little differently, in that I consider any appearance of Jesus after
AS>  He died part of the Resurrection. And equally miraculous.

As I pointed out to you before, experiences of "seeing"
someone after they've died are not uncommon.

AS>    Again...if it were a made up story...what sort of idiot would make
AS>  up a story about someone rising again, and add the puzzling detail
AS>  that on a few occasions, he wasn't recognized at first? Instead, we
AS>  have something puzzling...which is consistent with the idea that this
AS>  is something TOTALLY new happening.

If you broaden your reading beyond the Big Four (scared of
heresy?), the meaning of that detail becomes clear:  Christ (as
opposed to Jesus) is perceived according to the spiritual state of
the believer.  A deep spiritual metaphor is being used; it is
absurd that nonrecognition by so many people would occur if Christ
was using the body of Jesus.




AS> ... Go ahead, jump.  100,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
AS> --- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
AS>  * Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)

... Clop. Clop. "I'm a cowboy-hippie, hippie-ay." Clop. Clop.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1440
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 261/1137 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  bedbug principle
|Date: 17 Dec 96  23:38:16
EID:e408 2191bcc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 92008ca9
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
AS>>    But since blood-sucking insects have been around for millions of
AS>>  years longer than man, obviously the constants would have a little
AS>>  wider range. If the sun had only lasted as long as say, the dinosaurs
AS>>  existing, it would allow blood-sucking insects to evolve...but not
AS>>  intelligent life.

CJ>> The length of a specific star's life is not an apparent
CJ>> concern of this universe.

AS>  But the subtle change in the strength of electromagnetism would result
AS>  in all stars being red or blue stars. If electromagnetism had been

*All* stars?  The balance would shift, but *all* stars?!!

AS>  slightly stronger, solar surface temperature lies close to where
AS>  iornization occurs, at which point opacity increases greatly. Had
AS>  electromagnetism been slightly stornger (since any change is raised
to
AS>  its twelth power) then the main sequence would consist entirely of
red

I query that "any change is raised to its twelth power".

I also strongly query that an increased opacity would turn,
say, a yellow star (like ours) into a red star.  As it is, it
takes a fusion-induced photon to work its way, exciting atom by
atom, to the surface.  That works out to being very damn close to
a glowing "black body."

AS>  stars. Red stars lose heat chiefly by convection. A planet near enough
AS>  for warmth would suffer tidal forces which reduces its rotation until
AS>  it turned always the same face towards its parent star...and its
AS>  liquids and even its gases would then collect in frozen masses on its

There is the twilight zone between the hot and dark sides.
You seem to be neglecting axial inclination, which would also help
make up for the effect.  It may even be (greenhouse effect) that
removing a hefty percentage of said gases would be a precondition
for life.
There's also the possibility of life within brown dwarfs,
comparable to the well-known speculations concerning jovian-type
planets.

AS>  far side. If it were very slightly weaker, again since any change is
AS>  multiplied to the twelth power then all main sequence stars would be
AS>  blue; which are extremely hot...and more important, very short lived.
AS>  Hot blue giants remain stable for only a few million years...not long
AS>  enough, surely, for INTELLIGENCE to develop. And the realization of
AS>  that is what caused Brandon Carter to coin the word "anthropic
AS>  principle."

I agree with you about a few hundreds of millions of years
being unlikely for carbon-based evolution--it's a good point
against those claiming influence from Sirius, for instance.
However, this scenario would also corresponding boost the
warmth from what in our universe are brown giants; it would also
boost the warmth from red giants into yellow stars.  Such a
spectral shift would probably be *more* favorable to "life as we
know it," which depends on yellow stars, no?

CJ>> Nor, I suspect, will the universe be particularly concerned
CJ>> when Sol enters red giant phase and roasts Earth.

AS>  Did I say it was? But if ALL stars were red dwarfs or blue giants,
it
AS>  would have an enormous impact on the developement of intelligence in
AS>  the universe.

You missed the point, Al.  Our *present* universe clearly
doesn't give a fuck about the intelligent life it roasts.  Unless
that intelligent life escapes on its own (thank you God, this time
you tried to destroy us over a constant instead of our supposed
sins!) (or are you counting on Jesus to come in time to save us?
Hey, it's billions of years instead of thousands--might get lucky
yet), it becomes clear that the universe is at least equally
favorable to the destruction of intelligent life as it is to its
creation.
Eastern religions have no problem with that.  But I suspect
yours does.

CJ>> Other species have evolved since humanity on this very
CJ>> planet.
CJ>> There has been a plausible argument that dinosaurs might
CJ>> have evolved "intelligence" if given only a ten million or t