God Damned Fundies!
|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Animals needed.
|Date: 20 Dec 96 09:12:16
EID:b027 21944980
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 86512621
Hi John,
(Re: yours of 10-Dec-1996, "Animals Needed!")
JM> On 28 Nov 96 Laurie Appleton penned the following to Ed Mills
LA> Perhaps you can tell me and others how large a Dinosaur
LA> baby is when it is first hatched from the egg? Then you
JM> Perhaps you can tell us which dinosaur? Or do you know any?
Pick any one you like. After all paleontologists have
found plenty of Dinosaur eggs haven't they?
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38033908 V34+ Node 2 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Allele frequency.
|Date: 20 Dec 96 09:13:14
EID:52f9 219449a0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8651269e
Hi John,
(Re: yours of 10-Dec-1996, "Central Mystery.")
LA> What a shame you are so ignorant of such basic matters as
JM> Basic matters like allele frequency,
Ah yes indeed, John. Your current fixation eh? It is
appallingly stupid of course.
"An historic conference in Chicago challenges the
four-decade long dominance of the Modern Synthesis"
"The changes within a population have been termed
microevolution, and they can indeed be accepted as a
consequence of shifting gene frequencies. Changes above the
species level - involving the origin of new species and the
establishment of higher taxonomic patterns - are known as
macroevolution."
"The central question of the Chicago conference was
whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be
extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At
the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the
people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear,
No."
(As reported by Rodger Lewin, "Evolutionary theory under
fire". Science, vol.210 (4472), 21 November 1980, p.883.
If you are unable to follow what these leading
scientists(?) are saying then get back to me and I will try
to help!
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38033908 V34+ Node 2 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Justified reward.
|Date: 20 Dec 96 09:14:16
EID:005b 219449c0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 86512723
Hi Snarl,
(Re: yours of 12-Dec-1996, "Stalin Worship.")
LA> Yes, I have noticed a certain crudeness in your messages!
LA>However, don't forget that it was the evolutionists that went
LA>into PANIC MODE at the prospect of having to face "Balanced
LA>Treatment"? It is therfore clear who are the ones that were
KS> No, moron. Not panic, just exasperation that there are
KS> more asshole cretinists than is justified.
To say nothing of the facts that 80-90 percent of the
population were in favour of balanced treatment, weren't
they? That must have been VERY frustrating to all those
evolutionary purveyors of codswallop and hogwash! Even
worse must have been the fact, that the late (dead at
present) Isaac Asimov tipped the "can" over evolutionists
when he admitted that;
"The public has remained anti-evolution to this day. . . .
the general public, in what is probably the majority
opinion if a vote was taken, stubbornly adheres to the
tenents of a lost and dead orthodoxy of a century and a
quarter ago."
(The Roving Mind, Isaac Asimov, 1983, p. 50)
It must indeed be desperately FRUSTRATING to all you
evolutionary MYTH MAKERS, when, after having stolen the rights of
students to "balanced treatment", you then to find that, after
120 years of your silly arguments, you have to admit that the
public just does not "buy" your silly fairy tales that you
are falsely try to call science!
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38033908 V34+ Node 2 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: ???
|Date: 20 Dec 96 09:19:56
EID:8843 21944a60
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 865129f0
Hi Ed,
(Re: yours of 12-Dec-1996, "Tripe as Facts.")
EM> Laurie Appleton to Karl Schneider on 10 Dec 96:
LA> "This immediately places both evolution and creationism
LA> at the same level in the eyes of the public. At the same
LA> time, it strengthens the facade that creation science is a
LA> valid scientific theory and has nothing to do with the Bible
LA> or evolution."
EM> I take it you're wearing bulletproof shoes.
No need for that at all, since Creationists see it as
dishonest to be demoted to the level of evolutionary quackery,
fairy stories and mythology, as you will see from the
following, by a leading evolutionist of a few decades ago,
who honestly faced the facts when he said;
"With the failure of these many efforts science
was left in the somewhat embarrassing position of
having to postulate theories of living origins which it
could not demonstrate."
"After having chided the theologian for his reliance on myth
and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of
having to create a mythology of its own: namely, the assumption
that what, after long effort, could not be proven to take place
today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past."
(Loren Eiseley, Ph.D. (anthropology), "The secret of life"
in The Immense Journey, Random House, New York, 1957,
p.199.)
So "science" (falsely so-called) has long since been
found quite unable to support its claims, whereas when they
have unwisely tried to debate the matter with the
Creationists they have made themselves look even sillier
still and they have admitted it! e.g.
'The impact of the debates can best be gauged by the
concern shown by the evolutionists. A letter to the editor
of BIOSCIENCE is indicative.'
"Why do creationists seem to be the consistent
winners in public debates with evolutionists? . . .
We biologists are our own worst enemies in the
creationist-evolutionist controversies."
"We must no longer duck this and other issues
related to biology and human affairs, and when we do
face them we must think clearly and express ourselves
accordingly. We may still not be consistent winners in
the creationist- evolutionist debates, but let the
losses that occur be attributable to other than lapses
in professional standards.
(Dennis Dubay, "Evolution/Creation Debate," Bioscience,
Vol.30, January 1980, pp. 4-5 - Ref, Evolution in Turmoil,
p. 117).
So there you have it. Face up to it or admit to
"believing" in evolution out of philosophical BIASES rather
than because any scientific facts or evidence supports it!
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38033908 V34+ Node 2 (3:640/238)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: heat
|Date: 19 Dec 96 06:10:48
EID:5479 21933140
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 15afcee8
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting CURTIS JOHNSON to JESSE JONES on 12-16-96
CJ>On 12 Dec 96 06:09am, JESSE JONES wrote to STEVE QUARRELLA:
CJ>SQ>> BF> So you're claiming that the athiests in this echo aren't
CJ>SQ>> BF> really atheists.
CJ>SQ>>Swell! Not only do these guys get to sit around and decide who
CJ>SQ>>is a True Christian and who is not, but also who is a "True
CJ>SQ>>Atheist." Man, I get tired of hearing that what I believe or
CJ>SQ>>don't believe has been categorized by someone with a holy book.
CJ> JJ> C'mon, Stevie, admit it -- you're an open book. Anyone
CJ> JJ> with eyes to see can see right through you.
CJ> JJ> And it is obvious to any objective observer that the
CJ> JJ> denizens of this hell hole are not in any way typical of that
CJ> JJ> small portion of atheists in this country. The writer's point
CJ> JJ> is well taken: those participating here obviously are insecure
CJ> JJ> about their atheism.
CJ> As the fundies are insecure about their Christian beliefs?
Yes, I think it is analogous. Fundamentalists do, in my
opinion, tend to be insecure in their faith, just as the denizens of
this hell hole are insecure in their unbelief.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 12/18/96
jcjones@herald.infi.net
þ CMPQwk 1.42 1319
I do the work of 3 men. Curly, Larry, and Moe!!!
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Mario Gonzalez
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Alignment list
|Date: 17 Dec 96 07:33:58
EID:f7fa 21913c20
MSGID: 4:972/4.0 32b8163a
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5eed206d
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
KW> Name Location Alignment In the
Mario Gonzalez Tijuana Mexico Atheist
Dr. Mario Gonz lez
__o Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico.
_ \<._ gonzalez@telnor.net
(_)/ (_)______.-.______.-.______ Vamos a andar en bicicleta
... Why, oh why, Lord, did you create stupid people too?
--- GEcho/32 1.20/Pro
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|From: Mario Gonzalez
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: Signposts
|Date: 17 Dec 96 07:36:20
EID:3194 21913c80
MSGID: 4:972/4.0 32b8163b
REPLY: 2:250/210.0 32b44032
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
CG> I propose that Catholic Saints are 'Signposts' which indicate the way
CG> to God - discuss.
Yeah right!
Yuk, YUk.
Dr. Mario Gonz lez
__o Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico.
_ \<._ gonzalez@telnor.net
(_)/ (_)______.-.______.-.______ Vamos a andar en bicicleta
... Too many people confuse free speech with loose talk.
--- GEcho/32 1.20/Pro
* Origin: -=+=- LA CONEXION MEXICANA = TIJUANA, MEXICO -=+=- (4:972/4)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Houston Shit
|Date: 19 Dec 96 23:00:31
EID:deb4 2193b800
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 72600d40
JH>> You know that mound of dirt at 59 and 610?
ML> That's alluvial fill, you geoheathen.
Shit... I coulda sworn it was dirt left over from when they built
the damned interchange.
JH>> then was a water slide, then a putt-putt golf kiddie park, then
JH>> a Country Western open air theatre?
ML> Location, location, location...
59 and 610, like I said. SW corner.
JH>> It is now "Prayer Mountain".
JH>> (I've no idea just what they do there yet, or who runs
JH>> it.)
ML> 10 to 1, it's the SoBapt's trying another way to turn a
ML> buck.
Nah... Without having even visted the place, I'm willing to bet
it's targeted at an even lower strata: black Reverend Ike clones.
(Where in the hell is Jew Don Boney's church anyway?) The hand
painted signs are a dead give-away. The Southern Baptists
would put up glitzy billboard like affairs you could see from orbit.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: All
|Sub: CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDE
|Date: 19 Dec 96 23:12:20
EID:73a8 2193b980
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 72601bd2
REPLY: 1:3612/63.0 8A58C6F1
On Dec 19 14:08 96, Victor Rojas of 1:3612/63 wrote:
VR> J.J. I would like to ask you, What church you are going to?
I don't know if that's FAQ material or not...
But I'm going to be giggling over it for at least a week.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Victor Rojas
|Sub: CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCDDDDDE
|Date: 19 Dec 96 23:14:20
EID:bbb7 2193b9c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 72601e65
REPLY: 1:3612/63.0 8A58C6F1
On Dec 19 14:08 96, Victor Rojas of 1:3612/63 wrote:
VR> J.J. I would like to ask you, What church you are going to?
Ahem.... I *AM* a Church.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: All
|Sub: JJ Predicts
|Date: 19 Dec 96 23:18:01
EID:e61f 2193ba40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7260283a
Sean is going to take a powder soon.
(He's very buzy and has many important things to do. Oh, and
he also has a "Real Life" to take care of.)
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: ALL
|Sub: Das Uber Noel
|Date: 19 Dec 96 17:07:25
EID:c92d 219388e0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 2b9efbb4
REPLYTO 1:203/2 UUCP
REPLYADDR aanews@listserv.atheists.org
GID GIGO+ sn 1 at gigo vsn 0.99.960714
PREACHER THREATENS BOYCOTT: MERRY ''CHRISTMAS'' -- OR ELSE!
Is "Christmas" going to be the next litmus test of
theopolitical correctness?
It may become just that if Pastor Jim Hagan of Colorado
Springs, Co. has his way. The Assembly of God minister is
threatening to begin organizing a boycott of merchants who
don't openly acknowledge Christmas through store decorations
and signage, or who wish customers a "Happy Holiday" instead
of the more sectarian, religious message he considers
appropriate.
Last year, Hagan placed an ad in a local daily paper
declaring that he was building a list of retailers who
refused to comply.
"There will be monitoring," Hagan has warned. "Should
we, who consider ourselves Christians, spend our money at
places that feel 'Christmas' is offensive? Aren't those
retail stores offending us -- the majority -- by promoting
Christmas spending but denying the origin and reason for
Christmas... Christ? After 2,000 years, have we still not
found room for him at the inn?"
Hagan warns that the Colorado boycott will mushroom into
a nationwide movement; the preacher told The Denver Post
yesterday that he is currently compiling a list of offending
merchants who do not wish holiday shoppers a "merry
Christmas."
But in Colorado, a state already polarized thanks to an
influx of giant, religious right organizations which have
established huge operations there, Hagan's black listing is
encountering skepticism and concern. An assistant Rabbi in
Denver told The Post that while it is "certainly appropriate"
for Christians to wish each other a "merry Christmas," Jews
often offer a salutation of "happy Hanukkah." Rabbi Sandra
Cohen added that she would "love to see stores back off of
sacred celebrations altogether."
Hagan claims that many merchants have ordered their
employees to wish the public a "happy holiday" ostensibly
because it is what the minister described as "politically
correct." But a spokesperson for the Ross department store
told The Post that company policy is for employees to wish
everyone a "happy holiday" because the greeting "covers all
the bases." Other retailers expressed puzzlement about the
entire issue, saying that they do not have a specific policy.
Colonization, Attack
The President of the Colorado Springs Association of
Evangelicals declared that while he appreciated Pastor
Hagan's concerns, "with all the culture wars to fight about,
that (the greeting controversy) would probably be one I would
probably be a conscientious objector to. Rev. Stephen Todd
described the issue as one laden with "semantic land mines."
But Hagan's campaign may resonate with the growing
segment of fundamentalists and evangelicals who see
Christianity -- and religion in general -- "under attack" by
a wider and pluralistic secular culture.
Boycotting merchants who do not pass muster on a
religious litmus test like a holiday greeting is really not
much different from the "Christian yellow pages" one finds in
many communities, or the use of a fish logo on advertising to
signify that the merchant is Christian. And there is Rev.
Hagan's reference to "us -- the majority" (i.e. Christians),
a telling remark in a wider debate about whether the United
States is a secular nation, or one based up religious and
specifically Christian beliefs.
-- from AMERICAN ATHEISTS AANEWS #217 12/9/96 (Nightowl
Edition)
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: ALL
|Sub: Legal Christmas.
|Date: 19 Dec 96 08:27:06
EID:eaca 21934360
MSGID: 1:203/2.0 2b9efbb3
GID GIGO+ sn 1 at gigo vsn 0.99.960714
THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS, LEGALLY SPEAKING
Whereas, on or about the night prior to Christmas, there did
occur at a certain improved piece of real property
(hereinafter "the House") a general lack of stirring by all
creatures therein, including, but not limited to a mouse.
A variety of foot apparel, e.g. stocking, socks, etc., had
been affixed by and around the chimney in said House in the
hope and/or belief that St. Nick a/k/a/ St. Nicholas a/k/a/
Santa Claus (hereinafter "Claus") would arrive at sometime
thereafter.
The minor residents, i.e. the children, of the aforementioned
House were located in their individual beds and were engaged
in nocturnal hallucinations, i.e. dreams, wherein vision of
confectionery treats, including, but not limited to, candies,
nuts and/or sugar plums, did dance, cavort and otherwise
appear in said dreams.
Whereupon the party of the first part (sometimes hereinafter
referred to as "I"), being the joint-owner in fee simple of
the House with the parts of the second part (hereinafter
"Mamma"), and said Mamma had retired for a sustained period
of sleep. (At such time, the parties were clad in various
forms of headgear, e.g. kerchief and cap.)
Suddenly, and without prior notice or warning, there did
occur upon the unimproved real property adjacent and
appurtent to said House, i.e. the lawn, a certain disruption
of unknown nature, cause and/or circumstance. The party of
the first part did immediately rush to a window in the House
to investigate the cause of such disturbance.
At that time, the party of the first part did observe, with
some degree of wonder and/or disbelief, a miniature sleigh
(hereinafter "the Vehicle") being pulled and/or drawn very
rapidly through the air by approximately eight (8) reindeer.
The driver of the Vehivle appeared to be and in fact was, the
previously referenced Claus.
Said Claus was providing specific direction, instruction and
guidance to the approximately eight (8) reindeer and
specifically indentified the animal co-conspirators by name:
Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner and
Blitzen (hereinafter "the Deer"). (Upon information and
belief, it is further asserted that an additional
co-conspirator named "Rudolph" may have been involved.)
The party of the first part witnessed Claus, the Vehicle and
the Deer intentionally and willfully trespass upon the roofs
of several residences located adjacent to and in the vicinity
of the House, and noted that the Vehicle was heavily laden
with packages, toys and other items of unknown origin or
nature. Suddenly, without prior invitation or permission,
either express or implied, the Vehicle arrived at the House,
and Claus entered said House via the chimney.
Said Claus was clad in a red fur suit, which was partially
covered with residue from the chimney, and he carried a large
sack containing a portion of the aforementioned packages,
toys, and other unknown items. He was smoking what appeared
to be tobacco in a small pipe in blatant violation of local
ordinances and health regulations.
Claus did not speak, but immediately began to fill the
stocking of the minor children, which hung adjacent to the
chimney, with toys and other small gifts. (Said items did
not, however, constitute "gifts" to said minor pursuant to
the applicable provisions of the U.S. Tax Code.)
Upon completion of such task, Claus touched the side of his
nose and flew, rose and/or ascended up the chimney of the
House to the roof where the Vehicle and Deer waited and/or
served as "lookouts." Claus immediately departed for an
unknown destination.
However, prior to the departure of the Vehicle, Deer and
Claus from said House, the party of the first part did hear
Claus state and/or exclaim: "Merry Christmas to all and to
all a good night!" Or words to that effect.
Respectfully Submitted, s./
The Grinch
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: All
|Sub: Brian was the Messiah!
|Date: 13 Dec 96 19:06:12
EID:bb49 218d98c0
MSGID: 1:203/2.0 2b9efbb5
GID GIGO+ sn 1 at gigo vsn 0.99.960714
This and the following post were both pretty amusing, and I
thought, topical here, so . . . if you ever wondered who the
REAL Messiah actually was:
* Copied (from: alt.fan.monty-python) by Richard Smith using timEd 1.01.
Careful viewers of "The Life of Brian" will remember the
scene in which Michael Palin, as one of many street-side
prophets, said, among other things, "And a friend shall lose
a friend's hammer."
Later in the movie, Brian, fleeing the Roman centurions,
climbs a spiral staircase in a tower, and approaching the
top, causes a workman to DROP HIS HAMMER! Surely the hammer
was a hammer belonging to a friend! And just as surely, the
workman lost it!
Is this not a fulfillment of prophecy? Is this not proof
enough for you non-believers? Forget the damn sandle, follow
the gourd! And remember, as Brian preached, that we are all
individuals, even if you, sir, think that you'e not!
Kevin Jones, aka no relation to the nude organist
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: All
|Sub: Equal time to the Devil
|Date: 15 Dec 96 13:07:51
EID:c1fd 218f68e0
MSGID: 1:203/2.0 2b9efbb6
REPLY: 1:203/2 66d8c040
GID GIGO+ sn 1 at gigo vsn 0.99.960714
Just a brief bit of fair dealing here, giving equal time to
both sides. After reading this wanker, you may be as glad as
I am that we only have garden-variety loons like Ahardon and
Stutters the Clown . . .
* Copied (from: alt.fan.monty-python) by Richard Smith using timEd 1.01.
I have been using spam for a year now, and I realize that ...
I AM THE DEVEL. I AM SATAN HIMSELF. BOW DOWN BEFORE ME
MORTAL FOOLS. IF YOU DO NOT BELEIVE ME I PUNISH YOU TO
ETERNAL PAIN AND TOURURE. NOW WHERES MY SPAM? BRING ME MY
SPAM INFANIT MORTALS
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: whose mantra?
|Date: 20 Dec 96 00:06:01
EID:7309 219400c0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 9400856f
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 18 Dec 96 09:48am, LEE WOOFENDEN wrote to ROBERT CURRY:
LW> From a scientific point of view, you are right. Reality being made of
LW> matter vs. reality being made of consciousness--when each follows the
LW> same universal laws of behavior--are isomorphic situations. As far as
LW> science is concerned, it
LW> does not matter whether reality is made of matter or of consciousness,
LW> as long as it obeys regular laws that can be determined through the
use
LW> of scientific method.
LW> However, as I said to Martin Goldberg, we are not dealing with
LW> scientific issues here. We are dealing with philosophical and/or
LW> religious issues. The entire point of the discussion (from my point
of
LW> view) is to show that we cannot demonstrate (or disprove) such
LW> statements as "reality is made of matter," "reality is made of
LW> consciousness," "reality is made of spirit," and "reality is made of
LW> God" through science or logic.
LW> If people wish to hold to one of those beliefs, I have no problem with
LW> that. The problem comes when someone claims that s/he can _demonstrate_
LW> that one of them is true or one of them is false.
If you can demonstrate that consciousness also can be
predicted in precise *mathematical* detail, you might have an
argument worth listening to. If you can't, I don't think it is
worth listening to.
... So many messages, so few megs.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1443
* Silver Xpress V4.00
H
--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: The pitter-patter of little fetus
|Date: 19 Dec 96 12:22:12
EID:b7ab 219362c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32b9830b
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32b86b30
Determined to win recognition as the Fairest Fundy of Them
All, Nate Cookson said "Cheese Whiz" to Don Martin,
adding:
NC> But here are some of the ways abortionists dispose of the dead
NC> fetuses:
NC> Put tem down the garbage disposal, stick them in garbage bags and
NC> stash them in a store room to rot. Dumped in trash bags along with
etc.
So? It surprises you that tissue removed in an operation
is disposed of in ways that clash with your doubtless
refined sense of aesthetics? Yep, aborted fetuses are tossed
out just like excised tonsils, amputated toes, or excavated
tumors. One of the reasons ordinary people are kept out of
operating rooms is that the actions there are often not
pretty.
What would you propose for the fetuses? Pop them in
formalin in little bottles so the Mommies could take them
home for the mantelpiece? Dry them into relics, like the
three foreskins of Jesus on display in Europe, so that they
could be made into costume jewelry? Send them to the
mortuary, so that the Parents could buy them a teeny-tiny
funeral, complete with a little casket and a midget
preacher?
If these things are not to be thrown out, what would you
do with them?
Seriously, I am interested in your answer, and I suspect
that I am not alone on this one.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Around the world in 80 pr
|Date: 19 Dec 96 12:43:58
EID:5090 21936560
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32b9830c
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 72296548
Martin Goldberg said "Around the world in 80 pr" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM>> If it parts the labia, is it Kosher?
MG>> We'll just wait and see if a jewish girl will eat it. If
MG>> not, it's Kosher. Right?
DM> Of course right!
MG> I had no idea you spoke yiddish.
You should see the shrug.
DM> So what the hell--let's go the extra inch and buy the kid a
DM> condom, too.
MG> A "Glow in the Dark" one. For the handicapped.
I saw a brand name for one of these the other day: would
you believe a "Knight Light"?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: 2 corinthians 9:13
|Date: 19 Dec 96 15:03:41
EID:9520 21937860
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32b9a407
Marty Leipzig said "2 corinthians 9:13" to Don Martin,
adding:
CG> Any Christian has to be wary of claiming miraculous cures, savings,
CG> etc. simply because 'Acts of God' are very rare.
ML>
ML> So rare, in fact, as to not exist.
ML>
CG> Haven't examined the small print in your Insurance policy lately - you
CG> don't get a pay out on, 'Acts of God'.
ML>
ML> Seems the old insurance companies got us coming and going...
DM> They saw us coming and have got us going.
ML>
ML> And, lo, the land was smote with a plague of insurance salemen.
Like locusts with briefcases.
Let me say, parenthetically, that you have the most
diverting diverticulitis I have ever encountered, but I do
hope you get better.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: HolySmoke on the local level
|Date: 19 Dec 96 15:10:07
EID:8878 21937940
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32b9a408
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet b013a685
Fredric Rice said "HolySmoke on the local level" to Don Martin,
adding:
> Here in Columbia, the local hospital does an annual
> "Symphony of Lights" as a fund-raiser in Symphony Woods, a
> municipal park. Our local newspaper, the Columbia Flier
FR> [...cuts...]
FR> I quite liked it. I'm always happy to see HolySmokers out actually
FR> doing something of benefit for all humanity, raising a voice of reason
FR> among all the insanity.
Well, it might happen if the thing gets printed. I'll
keep my eye on the sheet (actually, given the fact that the
Letters to the Editor are about as fun-filled as HolySmoke,
you couldn't keep me from it).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: HolySmoke on the local le
|Date: 19 Dec 96 15:15:10
EID:969b 219379e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32b9a409
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ c1c90d80
Sally Springett said "HolySmoke on the local le" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> So in my own letter to the editor, I said:
SS> You are cruel!
So glad you noticed, m'dear.
SS> The poor man is probably still shaking his head. I'm
SS> sure it came as a severe shock to him that anyone might suggest
SS> that there are competititors to his god much less the nerve to ask
SS> for equal time for them. The naivete of these people cannot be
SS> overstated.
I rather like the idea of the religions chipping in a
little _cash_ to the public good for a change. That's a new
one to them, too.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 19 Dec 96 15:19:11
EID:78f0 21937a60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 32b9a40a
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 09c27fd6
David Worrell said "Warring Christanic Factions" to Don Martin,
adding:
DW>> Hardy seems to have become an agnostic. Let's hope he
DW>> hasn't been taking lessons from Billy.
DW>> I'll try emailing the log to your internet address.
DM> Is this the same Hardy?
DW> As near as I can tell.
DM> Did the old one post from
DM> Alabama? (I thought he was in Texas).
DW> No, he was from Alabama.
Hmmmm. Shows how much _I_ know.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: False Christian Scum [2/2]
|Date: 19 Dec 96 10:08:00
EID:a137 21935100
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b9c122
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Richard Smith cast False Christian Scum [2/2] at
Sue Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> Oh, BYW - Becke doesn't appreciate the blatant lies you've
SA> been spouting about her. Several of us have heard becke's
SA> side of the story; consider yourself branded a liar. You'll
SA> be hearing from her quite soon, BTW. And her husband, a
SA> Republican, thinks you're a total blot, as much as, or more
SA> so, than any of the "liberals" here.
RS> Speaking only for myself, I appreciate you posting this so
RS> that I can get some of the gist of Becke's side of the story.
RS> While I may have sympathized with Sean's feelings, etc., when
RS> he related his `events' to us, I did realize that I was
RS> hearing only one side. I liked Becke quite a lot, and hope
RS> to eventually hear her complete side as well.
I'll certainly pass on what she has to say - after I send her a
complete collection of what Sean had to say, tonight. I'll have her
write out something in her own words and DCC me a copy for public
posting.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... And Satan said to God, "But where will YOU find a lawyer?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: ask and ye shall rece
|Date: 19 Dec 96 14:44:01
EID:81af 21937580
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32b9c123
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Dave Hamilton cast ask and ye shall rece at Curtis
Johnson .. and all hell broke loose.
CJ> Another major reason hops are used, I understand, as a
CJ> preservative. The typical US mega-brand of beer uses little or no
CJ> hops, which is one reason the taste deteriorates so badly on the
CJ> shelf.
DH> Oh, *that's* what it is.
I was kinda wondering myself. It tastes like it goes skunky a mere
hour after it leaves the brewery.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... "If we do happen to step on a mine, sir, what do we do ?"- Baldrick
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MIRACLE:PROFESSION OF
|Date: 18 Dec 96 16:31:00
EID:1691 219283e0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> I still want it made into a movie. (Utopian dream...)
I thought of another one; Helstrom's Hive.
Sort of, anyway...
... Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your taglines!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: WARRING CHRISTANIC FA
|Date: 18 Dec 96 17:47:00
EID:1be6 21928de0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Fredric Rice <=-
AS> I think I'll become a Wiccan high priest. It's one way to win
AS> friends and influence people around here...
At the very least, it would cut down on the repetitious BS you
post here. Wiccans do not seek converts or argue their own
personal beliefs. That's why they get less flak.
Except from me, once in awhile, just to keep things balanced.
Goddesses indeed! Nonsense!
... This BBS has achieved Air superiority.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: WHY GOD?
|Date: 18 Dec 96 17:51:00
EID:a00e 21928e60
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Chris Green <=-
AS> Because He's the simplest hypothesis which covers the greatest number
AS> of phenomena that we observe in the world. From the anthropic
AS> coincidences, to man's altruistic impulses above and beyond societal
AS> necessity, to man's
AS> religious or transcendent impulses (by saying there is something
AS> there that IS transcendent). BEFORE THE BEGINNING by George Ellis (the
AS> cosmologist) makes an excellent case thereof.
Whoa there, Al. Just because it's one word (God) does not make it simple.
You open up a whole can of worms. Which God, what are his characteristics,
where did He come from, how do you know, etc. etc. etc.
... Answers: $1, Short: $5, Correct: $25, dumb looks are still free.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Steve Hayes
|Sub: theistic bombast
|Date: 19 Dec 96 19:25:34
EID:f1b1 21939b20
MSGID: 1:123/67 32b996e2
REPLY: 5:7107/9.0 32b8d766
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
16 Dec 96 01:21, quoting Steve Hayes to Shelby Sherman:
DW>>> Why don't you stop doing the fundy shuffle and answer Shelby's
DW>>> question?
SH>> Why don't you stop doing the false squelch and admit that I did?
SS>> No you didn't, bullshitter, you spewed some nonsense about
SS>> needing a liver. We ALL know the value of a properly functioning
SS>> liver. This has been evidenced and is well documented medically.
SH> Well, since you're such a fundi - produce the evidence.
You've turned out to be quite a Moron, even for a fundy.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Nick Andre
|To: All
|Sub: :)
|Date: 19 Dec 96 11:50:09
EID:996f 21935e40
MSGID: 1:340/14 b18bd9f6
TID: GE 1.11+
Whats everyones view on that stain on the office building in Florida that
resembles the "virgin" mary? :)
--- Renegade v5-11 Exp
* Origin: The Athiest Gatherings BBS (1:340/14)
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: You got that wrong!
|Date: 18 Dec 96 07:55:40
EID:872e 21923ee0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32b96ca8
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 861161cd
Hello idiot-child...
Still attempting to weasel your way out of your poor
scholarship, eh?
On 04 Dec 96 11:03:38, Laurie Appleton penned the following to Rick Mcfarlane
re: You got that wrong!
LA> The Cambrian is an evolutionary hypothesis, of course,
"Of course"? You're getting more stupid with every post,
Laurie.
LA> "Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described,
LA> one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations.
Actually, Erlich is right. Evolution itself is so well
documented that it cannot be refuted. Your pissing into the
wind is evidence of that.
LA> Every conceivable observation can be fitted into it. It is
LA> thus "outside of empirical science" but not necessarily
LA> false."
Gene sequencing, idiot-boy. Allele frequency is definitely
INSIDE of empirical science.
LA> "No one can think of ways in which to test it. Ideas,
So 30 years ago Erlich was ignorant. What's your excuse?
LA> The above is as good as admitting that evolution is really
LA> little more than fairy tales and dogma, resulting from
The above is as good as your admitting that you are stupid and
ignorant and that no amount of education can "cure" you.
In other words, you're going to remain stupid or die trying.
What a goof!
John
... 5th Rule of Creationism: Lying for the Lord is okay.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be sav
|Date: 19 Dec 96 09:57:21
EID:be46 21934f20
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6874
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A50D32B
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Judith Bandsma, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 11
Dec 96 06:15:00:
SH> I've got an even better one for you - why are you fascists so afraid
SH> of sponge cats?
JB> What the hell are sponge cats? Never heard of them.
Answer the question, fascist.
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: theistic bombast
|Date: 19 Dec 96 09:58:03
EID:5f31 21934f40
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6875
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ad13e261
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Fredric Rice, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 11
Dec 96 19:01:12:
ss> Now, be a good little christian and tell me why I or
ss> anyone elses *needs* to be saved.
FR> Answer the question, Steve. Of what possible benefit can you be
FR> thinking you derive by not answering the question?
Let Shelby answer the question./
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
... I love Fredric - he makes ME seem normal!
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Drew Barrymore
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 19 Dec 96 10:00:04
EID:a823 21935000
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6876
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet ae8a33b9
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Drew Barrymore, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 14
Dec 96 10:09:01:
DB> Why do I need to be saved?
You're the only one who can answer that question.
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
... Antelope, cantaloupe, folly go through
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 19 Dec 96 10:02:44
EID:281b 21935040
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6877
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b4bda98
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Richard Smith, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 15
Dec 96 21:39:33:
RS> Now that we know that you can't answer the question put to
RS> you, watch the others start to walk away in boredom.
RS> Good job, Steve . . . you're going to be universally ignored.
Why do you think I need attention, especially from people who post such
inane and boring drivel as I've seen here over the last few weeks?
I'm actually amazed they've kept it up for so long.
... Let us be brave and punctual; and vituperative and good-looking
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: theistic bombast
|Date: 19 Dec 96 10:08:03
EID:c711 21935100
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6878
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2b4bda99
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Richard Smith, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 15
Dec 96 21:42:48:
SH> I doubt that there is any smooth path through HolySmoke, and
SH> it does not strike me as the sort of forum where people ask
SH> questions in the hope of receiving an honest or useful
SH> answer, or where one could expect to receive one. Most
SH> questions appear to be trolling, and where there is HolySoke
SH> there is often UnholyFire and where there is fire there are
SH> usually flames.
RS> And so you won't even try? Then why be here, if you have
RS> nothing to contribute? What is your pay-off, so to speak?
Payoff? There hasn't been one yet.
I suppose I continue in the hope that someone may come along who shows some
glimmer of intelligence, and that in an echo with such a high volume there
might be some signal among the noise, but I haven't seen it yet.
... No one can move, move, move, like the Red Tribe do - MUFC
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: theistic bombast
|Date: 19 Dec 96 10:12:04
EID:0169 21935180
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6879
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 0085cfaa
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to David Worrell, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 16
Dec 96 00:31:00:
DW> In a message to Richard Smith you wrote:
SH> I doubt that there is any smooth path through HolySmoke,
SH> and it does not strike me as the sort of forum where people
SH> ask questions in the hope of receiving an honest or useful
SH> answer,
DW> Could you whine a little louder? Some echo participants might not have
DW> heard this one.
DW> You really should be more considerate of the people here with hearing
DW> problems.
SH> I DOUBT THAT THERE IS ANY SMOOTH PATH THROUGH HOLYSMOKE,
SH> AND IT DOES NOT STRIKE ME AS THE SORT OF FORUM WHERE PEOPLE
SH> ASK QUESTIONS IN THE HOPE OF RECEIVING AN HONEST OR USEFUL
SH> ANSWER,
... How could you nurd me with your cordwangle so?
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: theistic bombast
|Date: 19 Dec 96 10:13:15
EID:0169 219351a0
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba687a
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 0091b13f
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to David Worrell, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 16
Dec 96 00:44:00:
DW> Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that
DW> taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
DW> Why do we need to be saved?
There are some questions that people need to answer for themselves, and
that's one of them.
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
... Umuntu ungumuntu ngabantu - a person is a person because of people
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: nihilistic bombast
|Date: 19 Dec 96 12:09:23
EID:611c 21936120
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba687b
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet af159302
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Fredric Rice, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 15
Dec 96 20:57:05:
sh> Wrong.... I never made the assertion at all.
sh> You made the assumption that I did.
FR> Once upon a time I archived every message to floppy so that
FR> Christianic death cultists could have their noses rubbed in their lies
FR> when they demanded they never made an outrageous claim. Now I see
FR> that I'm going to have to start archiving the echo again -- and for
FR> the same reasons.
FR> Were you instructed to lie by one of your death cult masters? Is that
FR> it?
Wow, we are getting frustrated, aren't we?
Run ten times round the block and take a cold shower - I've been told that
can help.
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
... Spring is coming. De birds is singing. De Kock is crowing
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: christian freewill TWO
|Date: 19 Dec 96 11:37:14
EID:95d6 21935ca0
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba687e
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32b49da3
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Al Schroeder, who wrote to Curtis Johnson on
15 Dec 96 17:55:20:
CJ> They have shown themselves, across a wide span of history,
CJ> to be more inclined to active destruction than benign neglect,
CJ> compared to other religions.
AS> Tell that to Diocletian.
And it might be interesting to take a look at the activities of the League
of Militant Atheists in the 1920s and 1930s... it seems that even those
who claim to have no religion at all have similar tendencies.
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
... We evangelize. You proselytize. They are religious fanatics
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: christianity
|Date: 19 Dec 96 11:44:36
EID:6fbb 21935d80
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba687f
REPLY: 1:261/1137 920688db
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Curtis Johnson, who wrote to Christian Hedemark
on 18 Dec 96 04:23:03:
CH> I was just reading about that being so in Albania, up till recent times.
CH> The country was officially atheist. They went so far as to chop crosses
CH> off of tombstones. Clergy were killed or imprisoned. Any "religiously
CH> oriented" books were banned. Then as soon as communism fell, the great
CH> thirst for God surfaced from many people... people who had heard nothing
CH> of God their whole lives, readily accepted all they could grasp.
CJ> Pre-Communist Albania was almost entirely Muslim.
It was about 70% Muslim, 30% Christian (20% Orthodox, 10% RC) in 1945.
The proportions have varied over the years, though there were no Muslims
at all before the Turkish conquest in 1389, and resistance was only crushed
in 1521.
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
... No one can move, move, move, like the Red Tribe do - MUFC
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: theistic bombast
|Date: 19 Dec 96 12:38:26
EID:f3d5 219364c0
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6880
REPLY: 1:123/67 32aec411
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Shelby Sherman, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 11
Dec 96 09:21:15:
SH> Why don't you stop doing the false squelch and admit that I did?
SS> No you didn't, bullshitter, you spewed some nonsense about needing a
SS> liver. We ALL know the value of a properly functioning liver. This
SS> has been evidenced and is well documented medically.
It is also medically documented that paracetamol destroys the functions
of the liver, and some people deliberately overdose on paracetamol.
So why not drop the evasion and answer the question?
... Reality is an illusion caused by mescaline deficiency
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 19 Dec 96 12:52:40
EID:281b 21936680
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6881
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2aeec1b5
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Richard Smith, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 11
Dec 96 08:05:34:
MG> Why do we need to be saved?
sh> Why do you need to ask why you need to be saved?
RS> What word did you not understand?
sh> Non sequitur.
RS> Although the words non and sequitur (sic) were not in the
RS> question, do you actually need them to be explained to you?
RS> Which word in MG's question, or what part of it, did you not
RS> understand? Or are you simply unable to answer it?
Your question (sic) was a non sequitur, because it is not a question (sic)
of not understanding (sic) words (sic).
It is not the words, but the particular combination of them, that is meaningless.
I'm still waiting for him to give an honest answer to the question.
... How could you nurd me with your cordwangle so?
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 19 Dec 96 12:58:24
EID:281b 21936740
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6882
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2aeec1b6
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Richard Smith, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 11
Dec 96 08:08:41:
RS> Are there any pleasant ways to go?
SH> But that raises the question of why anyone NEEDS to go
SH> pleasantly.... they might want it, but do they actually need
SH> it... where's the necessity?
RS> The necessity of what?
Going pleasantly.
... As a river flows always towards its mouth, so fire burns
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 19 Dec 96 13:00:26
EID:0a7b 21936800
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6883
REPLY: 1:123/67 32aed9bb
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Shelby Sherman, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 11
Dec 96 10:55:40:
SH> His/her response to my answer indicated that it wasn't an honest
SH> question.
SS> I'm male and 48. Now that that is out of the way, how do you get
SS> off judging on whether or not my question was "honest", whatever
SS> that means.
SS> Why don't you just answer it?
I answered it.
You said you already knew the answer.
If you already know the answer, why do you ask?
... Shelby Sherman's mindless ad hominems continue
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 19 Dec 96 13:16:05
EID:cde1 21936a00
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6884
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 71462017
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Martin Goldberg, who wrote to Steve Hayes on
29 Nov 96 08:52:14:
MG> Keep your analogies. Tell us why we need to be saved.
Here is the answer I gave Shelby Sherman.
I repeat it in case you missed it.
SS> Why does ANYONE need to be saved? Please be specific. I have yet
SS> to have a christian answer this simple question.
Much the same answer as you would get to the question "Why does anyone need
a
liver?"
The answer depends on the assumptions you make about life, the universe
and
everything, and the answer isn't always 42.
Christians believe that God made the world and made it good. But when we
look
at the world around us there are a lot of things that don't look good -
war,
oppression, crime, sickness, and so on. Christians regard these as evil,
or as
sin. "Sin" means falling short of the target, or failing to reach a goal.
The
world has somehow failed to reach the goal of "goodness".
Christians believe that this evil, or sin, is not just a random occurrence,
but is actually caused by a power or force that promotes it. There is ill
will
behind it. Christians believe that the world is enemy-occupied territory,
and
the enemy who occupies it is the devil, or the satan (which means enemy,
adversary, opponent, public prosecutor, district attorney).
Christians believe that the world is in effect one big concentration camp,
with Satan as the commandant.
Christians believe that God did not want to leave the world in the mess
it had
got into, but acted to get out of the mess. God became man, and entered
the
concentration camp in the guide of a prisoner. The guards knew there was
something odd about this particular prisoner, but weren't sure what. They
decided to get rid of him, and executed him but that was their downfall.
As
the Christian scriptures put it, "None of the rulers of this age understood
this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
(I Co
2:8).
Chrsitians believe that Jesus has bound the devil, and broken down the gates
of the concentration camp. Christians believe that this is good news, and
that
they should tell others the news that the commandant is locked up, and the
gates are broken down. Being saved, therefore, means being saved from the
devil, evil, sin and death.
So from a Christian point of view, the question is not why anyone needs
to be
saved, but why anyone needs to stay in the concentration camp.
Of course if you don't share those assumptions, and you don't think the
world
is like that, then it won't make much sense to you. You might think that
there
is neither good nor evil, and that there is no purpose in existence, and
that
life came into being purely by chance and that the events that we observe
or
think we observe are just one damn thing after another with nothing either
better or worse than anything else. If you see things that way, then being
saved is no different from being damned.
... I'd love to stay here and be normal, but it's just so overrated
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 19 Dec 96 13:18:19
EID:0a7b 21936a40
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6885
REPLY: 1:123/67 32aec4e1
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Shelby Sherman, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 11
Dec 96 09:26:51:
SH> No, my china, you ASSUMED I made the claim...
SH> Now stop jumping to conclusions before we start to laugh at you.
SS> Let's cut to the quick then. Does anyone NEED to be saved.
SS> Yes or No.
I repeat it in case you missed it.
SS> Why does ANYONE need to be saved? Please be specific. I have yet
SS> to have a christian answer this simple question.
Much the same answer as you would get to the question "Why does anyone need
a
liver?"
The answer depends on the assumptions you make about life, the universe
and
everything, and the answer isn't always 42.
Christians believe that God made the world and made it good. But when we
look
at the world around us there are a lot of things that don't look good -
war,
oppression, crime, sickness, and so on. Christians regard these as evil,
or as
sin. "Sin" means falling short of the target, or failing to reach a goal.
The
world has somehow failed to reach the goal of "goodness".
Christians believe that this evil, or sin, is not just a random occurrence,
but is actually caused by a power or force that promotes it. There is ill
will
behind it. Christians believe that the world is enemy-occupied territory,
and
the enemy who occupies it is the devil, or the satan (which means enemy,
adversary, opponent, public prosecutor, district attorney).
Christians believe that the world is in effect one big concentration camp,
with Satan as the commandant.
Christians believe that God did not want to leave the world in the mess
it had
got into, but acted to get out of the mess. God became man, and entered
the
concentration camp in the guide of a prisoner. The guards knew there was
something odd about this particular prisoner, but weren't sure what. They
decided to get rid of him, and executed him but that was their downfall.
As
the Christian scriptures put it, "None of the rulers of this age understood
this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
(I Co
2:8).
Chrsitians believe that Jesus has bound the devil, and broken down the gates
of the concentration camp. Christians believe that this is good news, and
that
they should tell others the news that the commandant is locked up, and the
gates are broken down. Being saved, therefore, means being saved from the
devil, evil, sin and death.
So from a Christian point of view, the question is not why anyone needs
to be
saved, but why anyone needs to stay in the concentration camp.
Of course if you don't share those assumptions, and you don't think the
world
is like that, then it won't make much sense to you. You might think that
there
is neither good nor evil, and that there is no purpose in existence, and
that
life came into being purely by chance and that the events that we observe
or
think we observe are just one damn thing after another with nothing either
better or worse than anything else. If you see things that way, then being
saved is no different from being damned.
... I'd love to stay here and be normal, but it's just so overrated
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1 2342
SEEN-BY: 124/8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 140/3 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1
SEEN-BY: 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600
SEEN-BY: 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1
SEEN-BY: 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/27
SEEN-BY: 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3666/401 3667/1
PATH: 7107/9 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 19 Dec 96 13:19:06
EID:0a7b 21936a60
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ba6886
REPLY: 1:123/67 32aeda13
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Shelby Sherman, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 11
Dec 96 10:57:01:
SH> I'm saying that asking about "needing" to be saved is a meaningless
SH> question.
SS> O.K., dipshit....here is the question in a different form:
SS> Should a person endeavor to become "saved" in the christian sense?
SS> If yes, Why? Thanks in advance for your answer.
I repeat it in case you missed it.
SS> Why does ANYONE need to be saved? Please be specific. I have yet
SS> to have a christian answer this simple question.
Much the same answer as you would get to the question "Why does anyone need
a
liver?"
The answer depends on the assumptions you make about life, the universe
and
everything, and the answer isn't always 42.
Christians believe that God made the world and made it good. But when we
look
at the world around us there are a lot of things that don't look good -
war,
oppression, crime, sickness, and so on. Christians regard these as evil,
or as
sin. "Sin" means falling short of the target, or failing to reach a goal.
The
world has somehow failed to reach the goal of "goodness".
Christians believe that this evil, or sin, is not just a random occurrence,
but is actually caused by a power or force that promotes it. There is ill
will
behind it. Christians believe that the world is enemy-occupied territory,
and
the enemy who occupies it is the devil, or the satan (which means enemy,
adversary, opponent, public prosecutor, district attorney).
Christians believe that the world is in effect one big concentration camp,
with Satan as the commandant.
Christians believe that God did not want to leave the world in the mess
it had
got into, but acted to get out of the mess. God became man, and entered
the
concentration camp in the guide of a prisoner. The guards knew there was
something odd about this particular prisoner, but weren't sure what. They
decided to get rid of him, and executed him but that was their downfall.
As
the Christian scriptures put it, "None of the rulers of this age understood
this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
(I Co
2:8).
Chrsitians believe that Jesus has bound the devil, and broken down the gates
of the concentration camp. Christians believe that this is good news, and
that
they should tell others the news that the commandant is locked up, and the
gates are broken down. Being saved, therefore, means being saved from the
devil, evil, sin and death.
So from a Christian point of view, the question is not why anyone needs
to be
saved, but why anyone needs to stay in the concentration camp.
Of course if you don't share those assumptions, and you don't think the
world
is like that, then it won't make much sense to you. You might think that
there
is neither good nor evil, and that there is no purpose in existence, and
that
life came into being purely by chance and that the events that we observe
or
think we observe are just one damn thing after another with nothing either
better or worse than anything else. If you see things that way, then being
saved is no different from being damned.
... I'd love to stay here and be normal, but it's just so overrated
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Brett Johnson
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: Re: Christians v Guns
|Date: 17 Dec 96 19:54:56
EID:bd20 21919ec0
MSGID: 1:221/203 0afbdf37
TID: GE/32 1.2
CG> What do the various Christians using this echo feel about Guns in
CG> general?
Well, I'm Roman Catholic When
it
comes to guns, I'm somewhat indifferent. I don't own any, but don't look
down
on those who do.
CG> Is it every Christian American's inalienable Right to carry arms, and
CG> shoot his neighbour?
Well I'm neither an American (Canadian), nor do I think owning a gun means
you
neccessarily claim you have some right to murder.
CG> Does loving thy neighbour and enemy include shooting them?
It most certainly doesn't. I'm somewhat alarmed with the "kick butt" attitude
of SOME American Protestants.
For me, owning a gun is for sporting purposes, such as hunting or target
shooting, and possibly for home defense. But I don't see why anyone needs
to
own an M-16, or build an arsenal. I guess it's the paranoid, uncharitible
attitude of such owners that I'm not fond of. Though apparently your
constitution allows people to do such (stockpile guns, etc.) Here, we don't
have any "fundamental right" to weapons.
PAX
--- FRee iNTeRNeT!
* Origin: The Desert Sands BBS Cambridge ON Canada (1:221/203)
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|From: Brett Johnson
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: Re: Xstians v Sinners = Guns
|Date: 17 Dec 96 19:56:34
EID:bc3c 21919f00
MSGID: 1:221/203 0afbdf38
TID: GE/32 1.2
CG> Christians!
Chris! :)
CG> Do Sinners have the same Rights as Folowers of Christ?
We all, human beings as bearers of the image of God, have certain fundamental
rights, based on the principle of charity and reverence for God.
CG> Are Sinners non-human?
No, they're all too human. :)
CG> If Sinners are no longer human, then it must be OK to shoot them?
Since they are human, it's a sin to harm them, let alone kill them.
PAX
--- FRee iNTeRNeT!
* Origin: The Desert Sands BBS Cambridge ON Canada (1:221/203)
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|From: Brett Johnson
|To: Matt Weese
|Sub: Re: Holiday Books
|Date: 17 Dec 96 20:01:33
EID:dc94 2191a020
MSGID: 1:221/203 0afbdf39
TID: GE/32 1.2
MW> I was wondering if any of you knew of any books, or text (ASCII, PostScript
MW> etc) about where holidays REALLY originated from. I'd like to be able
to s
MW> down at the family table this year and start a discussion about who
started
MW> XMas, what all the icons represent (tree, mistletoe, etc.), and the
little
MW> rituals of the holidays (exchanging presents, Santa Claus)...
Well it depends "whose traditions" one is examining. Some are under the
impression that these traditions are at all universal, which they are not.
Some eastern rite Christians don't even celebrate Christmas on the same
day,
and they also put emphasis on other feasts in that season, such as the feast
of St.Nicholas (who has virtually nothing to do with "Santa Claus").
Things like "the tree", etc, are fairly western symbols. More than likely
alot of them had pagan origins, but were adopted by Christians as symbols
of
our faith. Evergreens, for example, are about the only plants which do
not
wither during the decay and death of the winter season, and thus serve as
a
symbol of life and hope.
I'm not sure where the presents came from, but I do know what the Christian
significance is. Personally, I like the way the eastern rites play down
the
whole "gift giving" part of the holiday, children being given simple
meaningful gifts, the religious significance of the occassion remaining
in
tact.
As for sources, I can only suggest hitting your local library. They must
have
something on the subject.
PAX
--- FRee iNTeRNeT!
* Origin: The Desert Sands BBS Cambridge ON Canada (1:221/203)
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|From: Brett Johnson
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Re: Darkness
|Date: 17 Dec 96 20:04:12
EID:47b2 2191a080
MSGID: 1:221/203 0afbdf3a
TID: GE/32 1.2
GT> Yes, whether Jeshua was the Christos that the prophesies seem to hint
at or
GT> not, is open to debate. It is unfortunate that, if he existed, he didn't
l
GT> writings of his own.
In a way, I think he left a more powerful testimony, in the martyrdom of
all
minus one (St.John) of His Apostles. They were obviously pretty convinced
of
the truth, to suffer and die for it as they did.
PAX
--- FRee iNTeRNeT!
* Origin: The Desert Sands BBS Cambridge ON Canada (1:221/203)
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|From: Brett Johnson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: Heathens
|Date: 17 Dec 96 20:28:13
EID:92e4 2191a380
MSGID: 1:221/203 0afbdf3b
TID: GE/32 1.2
DW> JJ> Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and
DW> JJ> this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--"
DW>
DW> (James 2:24 KJV) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not
DW> faith only.
DW>
DW> (James 2:25 KJV) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by
works
DW> when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another
way?
DW>
DW> (James 2:26 KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith
with
DW> works is dead also.
Indeed, "Sola Fide" folks have a tendency not to read St.James' Epistle.
:)
If memory serves me correctly, Mr"Sola Scriptura" himself, Martin Luther,
had
it put in an appendix without page numbers, because it burned him so badly.
In St.John's Gospel, the Lord says to His Apostles "without me you can do
nothing." He does not say "With me, you need do nothing." The quote from
Ephesians 2:8 that the fellow gave to you, is a reflection of this sentiment.
One must first have faith in God (the Pauline definition of faith extending
well beyond mere "belief" but encompassing obedience and full trust), in
order
to recieve the graces they need to live as members of Christ.
Members of Christ, must have good works to recommend them. Otherwise, their
faith is immaterial (a matter of mere "intellectual acceptance" of certain
doctrines, not submission to God), and they are not recipients of the "grace"
which St.Paul speaks of in Ephesians. Even St.Paul says throughout his
epistles that Christians can most certainly "be lost"...in 1st Corinthians
he
speaks plainly about the neccessity of endurance and perseverence, applying
this principle to himself. In 1st Corinthians 9:27 plainly says that even
he
who has preached to so many, could potentially be lost, without perseverence.
I only mention Paul, because he is practically the core of protestant
theology, almost to the total exception of anything said in other epistles,
or
even in the Gospels themselves.
PAX
--- FRee iNTeRNeT!
* Origin: The Desert Sands BBS Cambridge ON Canada (1:221/203)
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|From: Brett Johnson
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: satanism
|Date: 17 Dec 96 20:32:38
EID:0280 2191a400
MSGID: 1:221/203 0afbdf3c
TID: GE/32 1.2
KW> KW>We would love to book the Real, True Christ (tm) in here. You can,
of
KW> KW>course, produce this living God of yours in the flesh, can't you?
RS>
RS> [Kenny:]
KW> Comments like the above reveal how far removed you are from a
KW> reasonable understanding of the subject.
RS>
RS> But are you one of those claimants to be a "real Christian(tm)"?
RS> Can you tell us the criteria of a "real Christian(tm)"? Is it
RS> "anyone like me"?
I think the person's point was simply that the person who made the comment
about producing Christ in a visible manner at this time, really has no clue
as
to what they're talking about.
It's not a matter of this person neccessarily being sectarian; simply being
able to read.
The Lord told His disciples that He'd have to leave them soon. But He
promised not to leave them orphans, but give them another comforter; the
Holy
Ghost. He won't be coming back visibly for awhile...or it could be tommorow.
Who knows...the angels don't even know. :)
PAX
--- FRee iNTeRNeT!
* Origin: The Desert Sands BBS Cambridge ON Canada (1:221/203)
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|From: Brett Johnson
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Lies...
|Date: 17 Dec 96 20:37:25
EID:fdb7 2191a4a0
MSGID: 1:221/203 0afbdf3d
TID: GE/32 1.2
KW> DC>Note the primary meaning. Your godling was willing to follow the
KW> DC>laws of the Hebraic bible. Even the second usage implies following
KW> DC>through with the "old" laws.
RS>
KW> You totally missed what the Scripture said above, as well as
KW> what Jim said. Because Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law His
KW> followers, i.e., Christians are not under the Law.
RS>
RS> Why do you idiots still quote the OT laws, if they are no longer?
This whole line of discussion is complex, in that it requires a thorough
understanding of CLASSICAL Christian thought on the subject.
St.Paul speaks often about "the Law." By this he is reffering to the Torah,
and it's ordinances. An early conflict in Christianity was whether or not
gentile converts had to first convert to Judaism before they could be members
of Christ, or whether they need only be baptized. In fact the broader
question became whether the Torah and it's ritual ordinances were binding
upon
Christians at all, who were supposed to have "died" in their baptism, and
rose
to a newness of life.
What was contested were the ordinances of the Torah. The moral teaching
found
in it in fact antedates it, as the Torah itself reveals (ie: there were
"just"
men before the time of the Mosaic Covenant of Israel.) Thus, the OT is
useful
in this aspect; proclaiming moral truths. It's also useful in that it points
to Christ, both in prophecy and archetype. It's also a practical history
of
God's people.
Thus, one can quote from the OT. It is not "invalid", as even Christ said
Himself. He did not come to abolish the Torah or it's reading and study,
but
came to fulfill it.
PAX
--- FRee iNTeRNeT!
* Origin: The Desert Sands BBS Cambridge ON Canada (1:221/203)
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|From: Brett Johnson
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NKJ
|Date: 17 Dec 96 20:41:51
EID:11be 2191a520
MSGID: 1:221/203 0afbdf3e
TID: GE/32 1.2
LB> Christians are brand new people on the inside. The Holy Spirit gives
LB> them new life, and they are not the same any more.
RS>
RS> The strange thing is that Christians and non-Christians are
RS> exactly the same on the inside -- body tissue, fluids, etc.
Come on Rod, you seem (from your posts at least) a little more intelligent
than this. You know what they're talking about; the soul, who we
fundamentally are as human beings.
We die in our baptism to natural life, and are called to a newness of life.
Our walk as Christians is to conform, by God's grace and mercy, to this
calling.
Though I'm not always successful, I'd have to say I'm very different from
the
non-Christian.
RS> Christianity is the brainwashing of the feeble into something to
RS> place hope in when all hope is gone.
This is of course merely your opinion, as a hostile outsider. :) It's
meaningless for you to try to tell me personally "why" I'm a Christian,
or why
anyone is for that matter.
PAX
--- FRee iNTeRNeT!
* Origin: The Desert Sands BBS Cambridge ON Canada (1:221/203)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: AND MORE LIFE.
|Date: 17 Dec 96 10:41:00
EID:fae9 21915520
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E41
RH> -=> Quoting Ronald Vass to Dave Hamilton <=-
> RV> I've mention to others before, it's a dark scarry world out there
> RV> when you feel your the only one.
RH>But Ron, you ARE the only one. Not only that, you're going to DIE!
To die, that in itself, isn't what i fear. The way and means of dieing
does cause a fear, that i won't denie. I've been on the borderline of
the body shutting down. It was a V E R Y N I C E feeling. I don't
fear that part at all, if anything, i look forward to it again.
RH>Live with it.
I do.
* SLMR 2.1a * I used to get stiff in the joints so I quit going to them
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: -***- From Beyond The Grave. -***- (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: coincidence none
|Date: 17 Dec 96 13:16:00
EID:dd50 21916a00
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E42
RC> RV> Not sure about the proton charge but to the electron charge/mass,
RC> RV> if I'm reading and understanding the material correctly, there
RC> RV> can be a difference in the charge/mass of the electron to electron
RC> RC> .... smacking heads and the resulting particles+energy thereof.
RC>I'm sorry, but I can't make heads or tails out of that.
I stated it in very bad form but you did give an answer that
i was asking about.
~~~~~~~~~
-Date: 12-16-96 (01:04)
-From: ROBERT CURRY
- To: AL SCHROEDER
-Subj: coincidence none
~~~~~~~~~~
AS>> How do the electron proton charge strength differ? Not at all,
AS>> to the limits of testability.
RC> Is there any reason to think that charge is a continuous, rather
RC> than a discrete natural quality?
AS> None, in the set of constants we have in this universe. But note;
AS> all other things concerning the electron and proton (mass; spin,
AS> etc.) are very different.
-So what? Spin is also a discrete quality, btw.
-Mass either may or may not be; we don't know. For your information,
-it happens to be a fact that any sufficiently large collection of
-discrete entities will *approximate* a continuous range.
This is the answer to my bad form question. ie: approximate
* SLMR 2.1a * I've used up all my sick days, I'm calling in DEAD.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: -***- From Beyond The Grave. -***- (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: .
|Date: 17 Dec 96 13:37:00
EID:9170 21916ca0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E43
>> RC> Sorry, Al, but you're just behaving like an ignorant bullshitter
>> RC> again. Your preposterous definition of plasma is quite a keeper!
> AS> Indeed? Then favor us with your own.
> RV> Be funny as Hell, if Curry does it in math.
AS> Sure would. When we're talking about a physical state of matter.
E=MC^2 ... M=C^2/E ... no ? either way all he would have to
do then is place it with an excess charge + - . It would be
like him describeing the Northern Lights in a math format as
to why they happen and the how, of them happening.
Then too, I'm likely way out to lunch on that. I'm sure he or
someone will correct me.
* SLMR 2.1a * If I used taglines, I would steal this one.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DAVIES THEE
|Date: 17 Dec 96 16:48:00
EID:a9c6 21918600
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E44
AS> RV> , and let all but one of the remaining massless gauge bosons
AS> RV> be sold into infrared slavery. That one last gauge boson is my
AS> RV> favorite. Let him rush forth to illuminate all my creations!"
AS> RV> From ....Fearful Symmetry.... page 232....
AS> RV> ~*~
AS> Could be.
I think you would also enjoy his writeing. I did wonder where he was
going with a toss out of 'mother earth' and a 'creator'. Almost sounds
as if he had two god types in there, a minor and a major.
* SLMR 2.1a * If It Screams, it's not food . . . . . yet . . . . .
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Star Goat loves each
|Date: 17 Dec 96 14:50:00
EID:b4de 21917640
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E45
JB>-=> Ronald Vass spoke thusly to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> RV> Christ, Curry shows up and every one starts talking math just
JB> RV> to impress him.
JB>Not me...I grew up in a time when it was expected that the only math
JB>a woman would be able to understand would be how to calculate mixing
JB>baby formula. (1 can of formula to 1 can of water) And women weren't
JB>supposed to even be able to balance a checkbook.
The house hold i grew up in, the female balance the money, then
too, she help build the addition, mix cement, turn the ground over
laid bricks, etc. All that male bullshit stuff.
JB>I KNOW I'm smarter than that, but I still have this thing of "I DON'T
JB>WANT TO DO IT" when it comes to math...even simple arithmetic. I get
JB>really bitchy when I have to do the business books and nobody wants to
JB>be around when I have to do the quarterly tax computations.
Dad was an accountaint, so he did the tax bit, it was just a minor
detail, since he did the company tax detail also. Going by my
grandmother/mother/sister/sister in laws, and their female chrildren.
I don't think we had any wimp women, so far. Some of kids are too young
yet to be sure how they will turn out. But the format is there, for them
to follow if they wish.
So far, none of the women like math, then too, they don't like
computers either.
* SLMR 2.1a * If You Can See This Tagline , Guess What, Your In Hell !
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: -***- From Beyond The Grave. -***- (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: And more life.
|Date: 17 Dec 96 15:21:00
EID:036e 21917aa0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E46
> DH>> Forcing people who want to die to stay alive. Why make sense?
> RV> I have no problems with those who are old, or a terminal illness
> RV> or those who have lived a bit. I'm sure as hell not sure how i would
> RV> answer that if i had a child, that at age 16 or so, said the same
> RV> thing.
DH>With a teen you have the opportunity to address the cause of the
DH>depression, and try to convince the kid that s/he won't feel this
DH>bad forever. You can hardly do this with a terminal patient.
I was kind of looking at it as if legal for one group ie: the old
and tried or the fatal sick. Then it would also have to be open for
anyone. If it every gets allowed here, then i can see another
battle like the anti-abortion group. However the rules are apply
it would be another can or worms.
It is what i would support, then like i also indicated. Even I, would
find it hard to allow the young access to it and thats not being fair.
> RV> I've dealt with a couple of trouble teens and sweeted blood hopeing
i
> RV> wouldn't say a key, that acted as a final trigger. It's hard to get
> RV> across , to keep trying but be honest and also admit that there's
> RV> going to be a lot more shit down the road, they will have to face.
DH>That's true. But quality of life isn't the absence of problems; it
DH>is how you cope with the problems you get.
I've always wonder to myself, if i have the right to interfear in
their life. They may have presented their wish to me
and if i happen to have turn them on their path, by accident i may
turn them on a worst path. That is my biggest fear when this happens.
* SLMR 2.1a * If at first you don't succeed,Then Skydiving isn't for U
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Enochban.Rit
|Date: 17 Dec 96 15:22:00
EID:c395 21917ac0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E47
JB> RV> I find it funny, that the news papers,write at a grade 6 or 7 level,
JB> RV> else they wouldn't have enought buyers of the paper. When you hear
JB>Did you see the BC cartoon in Sunday's paper? It was a hoot.
Can't say I did. What did i miss out on ?
* SLMR 2.1a * If atheism is Not religion, then christianity is Idiocy.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: enochban.rit
|Date: 17 Dec 96 20:24:00
EID:465b 2191a300
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E48
CJ> RV> I natter for nothing other then to natter, for that, I thank the
CJ> RV> moderator of this area.
CJ> FWIW, Ronald, I think I've observed an upward trend in your
CJ> grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. The practice must be
CJ> helping.
I amaze or is that amuse myself, with the abuse, I can do to the
written word.
Now the comma king is back, we'll have someone else bitching about
the abuse, i do to the written word.
Comma king is Hardy , I think you confuse that with the Perfect Al,
' I control the mind of God'.
I see Al is so close to the bottom of the barrel, he's now useing
well Ron did it. Shit is that a laught, between you
and Curry he's picking up any rock to hid under.
I've looked for the orginal post but alas thats another that
never made it this far. Now the hub is talking ofpicking up
the fido package through the inter-net. If that happens, who
the hell knows how it will work out.
O'well.....Have a good one.
* SLMR 2.1a * If i Throw a Cat out of the car window,is it kitty litter
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Christian L O V E
|Date: 17 Dec 96 16:46:00
EID:b60c 219185c0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E49
MM>RV> We were talking about world wide event, caused by christian
MM>RV> love.
MM>Might be what you meant, but this is you said:
I notice you didn't address, what i meant.
MM> RV> Is there any event, where Christian Display of love/careing
MM> RV> been recorded ? in history ? ... Other then the bible. You
MM> RV> have played in this area longer then I, But i can't think of one
MM> RV> or even know what book/area to suggest to look for it.
MM>I gave you examples of 2 Catholic men from our own time, 1 was
MM>CEO, the other of middle management. I could add another CEO,
MM>Albino Luciani also known as John Paul I. Their life and deeds
MM>(historical) are widely recorded in literature.
MM>You don't like it... tough.
MM>I guess you could also include all the Xians honored with
MM>the title 'righteous gentile' by the Jewish establishment
MM>for saving Jews during WWII.
So your showing that whatever the group, sooner or later
someone of human careing will arise above the norm.
MM>As an agnostic I don't share your hatred of religions.
I would class myself as an agnostic, prior to reading this
area. That part has change. I figure christian faith was a
silly belief and harmless, that also has change. It still
strikes me as silly but no longer do i think of it as harmless.
Now to the hateing part, I will leave the hateing to the
younger crowd, a good hateing takes more energy then i have.
MM>Each one of them has plenty of repulsive followers, and
MM>each one also genuinely good and caring people.
I agree here, no problem at all. There is good/bad in what ever
group of humans.
MM>That I am not a believer in any supernatural stuff is no
MM>secret, but that doesn't make me blind to the fact that
MM>many people feel enriched by these teachings.
And this area < Holysmoke >, has showen me how various christians
use their god and their bible, to allow them to show hate to others.
MM>I may not be able to join in myself, but I feel no
MM>hostility toward those who do - as long as they leave
MM>me to make my own choices.
Don't know about your area of life but in this area, we see the
god fearing group trying like hell, to remove various rights
of socity all the time. Banning of books in highschool is right
up at the top.
MM>RV> The Dark Side of Christian History reveals in painstaking
MM>RV> detail the tragedies, sorrows and injustices inflicted
MM>RV> upon humanity by the Christian Church.
MM>And isn't that what most 'men of power' have been doing
MM>since the mist of time, religious or not? Human nature is
MM>not gentle - and even democracy doesn't seem to change it
MM>very much. Thus I am not surprised at all.
' men of power ' with a L O V E ing god. Should be loveing
humans, careing humans. Not killers of human life, not killers
of human knowledge. Men following a loveing god and loveing bible
should be better then the general normal population.
MM>RV> Over a period of almost two millennia, the Church has
MM>RV> oppressed and brutalized millions of individuals in an
MM>RV> attempt to control and contain spirituality.
MM>And in your own small way, you seem to be have inherited
MM>that style. Spitting on and diminishing anyone expressing
MM>spiritual opinions, and with a hell-bound feeling for
MM>revenge on anybody you perceive has contradicted you.
So asking for evidence of this god they worship is spitting on them.
Find no problem at all, so all they need is some real evidence and
perhaps the spit will dry up.
As to those who disagree with what i think or say and wantting
revenge, somehow i don't buy that. In the house i was raised, if four
people, you had eight different opions. Contradication was expected and
wantted, better find another horse to ride, that one is getting lame.
* SLMR 2.1a * If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MIRACLE:PROFESSION OF JOY
|Date: 17 Dec 96 16:59:00
EID:fe48 21918760
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E4A
AS> > RM> Laurie Appleton might be a Nobel Prize winner too, but there's
no sig
AS> > RM> of it in this forum.
AS> AS> No. I may believe in miracles, but THERE I draw the line...
AS> RV> W H Y ?
AS> Because I believe in free will, and Appleton is a willfull idiot.
Not the way he can join words together. A lier maybe, but far from
an idiot. I do understand what you meant, though.
* SLMR 2.1a * In the demolition derby of life, I'm a Pinto.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Rant Wars with "Commie Su
|Date: 17 Dec 96 17:09:00
EID:b74d 21918920
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E4B
BBS: The Devil's Advocate
Date: 12-16-96 (22:01)
From: SEAN MCCULLOUGH
To: DAVE HAMILTON
Subj: Rant Wars with "Commie Su
SM> > SM> 1: My apologies to anyone who may experience "collateral
insult
SM> > SM> upon reading these messages, especially "Commie Sue"'s fellow
SM> > SM> Canadians.
SM> > NOW you say so. Have you considered prefacing wide-range invectives
SM> > with warnings?
SM>I did do exactly that.
SM>This message was posted BEFORE the rants were.
SM>By several HOURS worth, in fact.
SM>My apologies if it didn't arrive that way.
Can't speak for Dave but in this location, the warning can in last
and the rant was ahead of the crowd.
* SLMR 2.1a * It's always darkest just before you step on the cat.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: oh hell
|Date: 17 Dec 96 17:50:00
EID:d251 21918e40
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32B78E4C
CJ> AS>> It's not war when you attack another species, Ron. Or if it is,
then
CJ> RV>> So when the LGM decide they want this mud ball, and remove the
so
CJ> RV>> called higher order of animals. It's not war. Ok.
CJ> AS> Nope. Ever read War of the Worlds, by H.G. Wells? One soldier said
it
CJ> AS> wasn't a war between them and the Martiains...anymore than man
wars
CJ> AS> with the ants. Ants plan, build, wage wars, but a man can trod
on an
CJ> AS> anthill and they'll have to start all over again...
CJ>