God Damned Fundies!
|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: reading incomprehensi
|Date: 03 Jan 97 07:50:52
EID:5bef 22233e40
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cd0ebc
REPLY: 1:261/1137 21128ada
NC> You actually take this echo serious enough to use a spell
NC> checker!! You are are a sick puppy then aren't you!
CJ> You mean you don't take your cause seriously enough to make
CJ> it appear that it's supported by intellectually competent people?
What I mean is that I don't think this echo is supported by
any real "intellectually competent people" so what take it that
seriously?
Since I'm new here... let me show you what I mean...
Here's what I've seen so far//
Someone by the name of "Pooh" (Must not want us to know her real name) .
Who likes to see little babies in the mothers womb taken out by
force..(And here I thought Pooh was a child's charcter.
Someone by the name of "Dan" who only knows four letter words and
loves to cuss a lot... ((Boy this guy can REALLY be taken serious))
And let's not forget my "Favorite Martian"... This guy is supposed to
have a PHD and is "intelligent"!? ((He thinks most everyone is a "fundy"))
Nahh.. this isn't a serious echo... this is more like a adult version
of Looney Tunes......!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: cheese whiz
|Date: 03 Jan 97 07:58:40
EID:6b34 22233f40
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cd1090
REPLY: 1:261/1137 21128b51
Greetings!
NC>
NC> Maybe it's not God at all?? But mankind
NC> wasting what God has given
NC> us...
CJ> A very large fraction of the developing embryos are simply
CJ> washed out when they fail to implant, due to the timing of the
CJ> menses. In fact, part of the rhythm method is predicated on this.
CJ> Looks like your God, the greatest abortionist of them all,
CJ> designed it this way.
You assume it was intended that way. Without any thought to the
human condition, and what we have done to the air and water we
breath... I see no "evidence" that God designed it this way...
But I see lot's of evidence that man has messed it up that way.
That's why this type of logic is a cop out....
Don't worry Mr. Martian thinks the same way... and He's got a PHD!
So much for higher education........*Grin*
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 03 Jan 97 08:02:36
EID:56df 22234040
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cd117c
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cac466
Greetings!
GT> Not in evidenc. And better for whom? Seens to me that the only
GT> ones who really benefited were the self-appointed
GT> patriarchy and their holy-owned (spelling
GT> intentional) politicos, who had themselves a great
GT> tool for fattening their own purses and keeping the
GT> slaves under control.
"Benefited"!? You jest of course! Let's see the orginal founder
died on a Cross without a dime to His name, all His followers were
eventually killed, none every reaping any benefit. One of the Greatest of
His followers was a Ten maker so he could support himself without being
a burden to Christians at the time.
No, in fact man has done a better job of making slaves out of his
fellow man than anyone else...
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 03 Jan 97 08:07:14
EID:9908 222340e0
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cd1292
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32cab518
And thus Pooh Bear spoke........
GtP>> Ever watched a puppy avoid being hitten for
GtP>> a misdeed? Ever seen a
GtP>> fawn running away from a hunter? Ever seen
GtP>> a chick turn and defend
GtP>> itself. It is the habit of life to respond
GtP>> to external stimuli.
GtP> Everything organic is life or was. I don't think
GtP> a fetus has anymore rights than the burger you
GtP> last ate.
One{ time you say one thing... {than you turn around and say
something else, which is it? Does life "respond" to stimuli?
Or is life just a slab of meat? Does a cut out organ represent
all their is to " life" ?
Does the "fetus" have more to it, than just a slab of meat?
Will the organ ever be anything other than just a organ? Or will
that fetus become something more than it's current state?
GtP> Can you understand how a person who has been the victim of abuse, an
GtP> unwanted child whose first twelve years of life
GtP> were hell and didn't get her act together for
GtP> thirty years, could accept abortion? Can you
Kwel!!! Let me get this straight...
You think one act of "abuse" ok's another act of abuse on the un-born baby.
This must relate back to Mr MArtian's higher math? Right?
GtP> could advocate a quick ending before it could
GtP> really feel rather than letting a child suffer for
GtP> years and maybe still end up dead? Or worse, free
Abuse + Abuse = What's right?
Can you understand someone steeping in to stop the chain of abuse
so both may live?
GtP> years and maybe still end up dead? Or worse, free
GtP> to perpetuate the abuse on the next generation?
GtP> years and maybe still end up dead? Or worse, free
GtP> to perpetuate the abuse on the next generation?
Good Idea!! LEt's murder them all and take care of the problem that
way! Since we all know who will be the abusers in the next generation
WRONG!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Arthur Barnes
|To: All
|Sub:
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:48:00
EID:1235 22229600
MSGID: 1:106/7315.0 32ccf274
PID: BWTAG 3.11 [Reg]
You know, Christians really get to me sometimes. This morning, some preacher
guy was on and he decided that Christians needed to relook at what holiness
means. He was way off... I forgot where the word came from, but it originally
meant (well Holy did anyway) "other". It had nothing to do with morals
and
how good someone was. I laughed the whole time he talked!
... The cat seldom interferes with other people's rights.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Arthur Barnes
|To: Bill Forseth
|Sub: "flat earth" town
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:54:00
EID:276b 222296c0
MSGID: 1:106/7315.0 32ccf275
REPLY: 1:282/76.0 32cb17b9
PID: BWTAG 3.11 [Reg]
While riding the back of his gryphon, Tyladriel heard this: "flat earth"
town
BF> No, it's because of copulation. Population increases because the
BF> birth rate exceeds the death rate. It's a mathematical thing. Look:
NC> I think the laugh is on you, ....
NC> Is it the "mathematical thing" that does the "copulation" or is
NC> the human race!!?
NC> So.. although your math is correct.... It's still mankind that
NC> has caused the problem, ins't it...
BF> Please learn how to read before responding to anything I write.
BF> You're obviously the product of a very shakey educational system, and
BF> the only hope you have is to re-educate yourself.
BF> And telling people not to copulate is like telling dogs not to shit.
BF> It's gonna happen, whether you approve or not.
Todays education system does suck. I failed algebra 1 twice! Not because
I'm stupid, I excel in all my other subjects. The first time, I had a
really incompetent teacher who ended up being fired at the semester. Everyone
in that class failed at least once. EVERYONE. When they got a new teacher,
I passed. The second time was during summerschool. I had a decent teacher,
but they taught us out of the same book (stupid Saxon book). The reason
I
failed that time was because they tested us with the Texas State Credit
By
Exam test. There were things on that test that weren't in the book. I
still
need a half of a credit for that stupid class. I decided the school can
go screw itself because I'm going to get my credit by correspondance during
the
summer. They really need to get their acts together. Oh, another thing
they
did. At the beginning of the year, we got our scheduals. I got all the
honors classes I wanted. The funny thing is they had me in the advisory
for
mentaly challenged kids! I talked to the teacher and she let me go to my
French teacher's advisory. The teacher went and had my schedual changed
because
the administration screwed it up the first time. Can you believe that?
I
put up with crap like that just about everyday.
... I'm busier than a one-eyed cat watching two mouse holes.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Arthur Barnes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: 2 Goatians 9:13
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:30:00
EID:2c98 22229bc0
MSGID: 1:106/7315.0 32ccf276
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32ca6e41
PID: BWTAG 3.11 [Reg]
While riding the back of his gryphon, Tyladriel heard this: Re: 2 Goatians
9:13
QF> While puffing on a 'Fropstick, I felt David utter:
DR> Rais, Gilles de: on charges of witchcraft, executed 26 October, 1440
QF> I found a web page devoted to serial killers (It also had a section
on
QF> killer cults which was kinda interesting), and I found a reference to
QF> this guy. According to what I read about him, I would have killed him,
QF> too.
AS> I made an objection about that once. Some got all huffy and refused
AS> to play (I think that was around the time that Katherine and Richard
AS> twitted me, for being so mean as to say something uncomplimentary
AS> about someone supposedly killed for being a nonChristian). They never
AS> DID explain, if he was railroaded, as they claimed, about the fifty
AS> bodies of children found under the castle.
AS> I don't see why...if there can be Christian SOBs, like
AS> Torquemada...why there can't be occult or pagan or semipagan SOBs,
AS> like de Raise.
I think the reason behind this is that Christianity is an organized religion
whereas paganism is chaotic. Everyone follows his or her own path. In
most cases people don't represent a group. If they do, it's a small group
not
all of paganism. There is no spokesperson(sp?) for paganism as there is
for
let's say... Catholocism(sp?) ie the pope. The point is, you can't label
someone like de Raise a "pagan" SOB as you would a "Christian" SOB because
he isn't representing paganism as a whole. You can't represent paganism
as a
whole because of its great diversity. I'm a pagan. I could very well,
and
probably would, disagree with his views. You can, however, simply label
him
as an SOB if you like.
... "Can you hammer a six inch spike through a board with your penis?"
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: FALSE CHRISTIAN SCUM
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:33:52
EID:9994 22230c20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 1 Jan 97 09:51am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to BECKE BOYER:
AS>> Only part of her messages went out. The ones that she answered online
AS>> on one BBS to you and Mimi. Another packet that she uploaded (which
AS>> had her version of things) did not go out. That's why Mimi was
AS>> concerned, not seeing Becke's version of things that she promised.
AS>> (Don't you LOOOVE Fidonet.) Nevertheless, she seems pretty happy in
AS>> her marriage, as does her husband (both of whom come on #irc).
AS>> Becke's had a tough life, and I'm glad for any happiness she can get.
AS>> And probably it's best that both she and Sean realized it wouldn't
AS>> work out before it progressed further than it did. I just question
AS>> the wisdom of mentioning it here on Fidonet, but some would say _I_
AS>> should talk....
BB>> Al, thank you...you, at least, were right on the money with you
BB>> comments...
AS> Thank YOU for being one of the most delightful people I have ever
AS> "met" by modem. And Happy New Year. I thought Styx's comments were
AS> quite appropriate, also.
Thanks for the compliment, Al. And a Happy New Year to you as well...
Becke
... WORK HARDER!... Millions on welfare depend on YOU!!!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 46
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
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|From: Jason Harmon
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: More grist from the web
|Date: 03 Jan 97 13:44:00
EID:9e95 22236d80
MSGID: 1:3652/1 32CD68CA
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Dan Ceppa <=-
AS> An excellent point! But then, if one chooses not to live a morally
AS> upright life, and not to ask for God's forgiveness, what would you
do
AS> with them?
DC> Your religion consigns them to hell. Makes me want to join, not.
AS> My religion will save them with a word, a simple asking for
AS> forgiveness. It has made millions want to join, yes.
You have made millions join by scaring them with hell? Nice religion.
... "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." -- Heinlein
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
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|From: Ric Carter
|To: CARL POLLOCK
|Sub: 12 Days of Abduction
|Date: 01 Jan 97 15:19:00
EID:84cc 22217a60
CP> If you didn't notice, this is a RELIGIOUS DEBATE echo. Why on earth
CP> would a message like the twelve days of abduction go here?
Abductionism is a religion too. 12 days of *anything* is a religious
satire. And everybody wants to be a moderator now. Yow.
... Opposites attract. Example: LONG hair and SHORT skirt!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- Synchronet+SBBSecho v1.10
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Off topic??
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:39:01
EID:41c1 22237ce0
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
PID: BWPCB2 4.01 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:261/1137.0 32cd282e
Damien Wellman said "OFF TOPIC??" to Don Martin,
adding:
DW> ::From: Don Martin To: Gwenny The Pooh Subject: Off topic??::
DM> Ah, the sweet fascism of Heinlein. All we need is someone who
DM> _really_ understands us to lead the way. How can you stand his
DM> cookie-cutter female characters? Hair color is the only way you can
DM> tell 'em apart.
DW> Don, this seems to be the most popular Heinlein criticism around, yet
DW> it is the most untrue. Kindly look up the definition of "fascism" in
Totaly wrong, but most widely shared? Same thing as
diety belief, then?
DW> the library, as well as researching the history of it. Then, read a
DW> good representive sample of Heinlein. If, in all of 40-something
DW> books, you can produce even ONE shred of evidence that Heinlein - or
DW> any of his protagonists - is a fascist, I'll eat my copy of SIASL.
Certainly the notion that the right leader can solve all
of our problems is the basis of fascism: certainly granting
total power to the state is much easier when the state is
embodied by such a being. Since the divine right of kings
has passed from the scene, populist leadership is as close
as we come, and it is often to be found in the sentimental
reaction to the charisma of that leader. As the Germans said
about Adolf: Als er sprach, er sprach aus unsere Herzen
(when he spoke, he spoke from our hearts), the feeling
connection between the Great Man and his followers is
essential. It was this sort of thing that I personally most
distrusted in Presidents Kennedy and Reagan: both had a
mindless appeal to the sentiments of the mob. I will stand
by what I said about the central character of this book,
whose great appeal resonates with "wouldn't it be wonderful
if someone like HIM were in charge?" The parallel with Jesus
shows the same tendancies: charismatics who cannot become
presidents may, if they are not careful, end up as gods.
DW> Similarly, if, by "cookie-cutter female characters", you mean that
DW> the various females in Heinlein are unbelievable, I must also
DW> disagree. This hypothesis can be easily tested as well: First,
DW> disbelieve all of Heinlein's female characters, and maintain that all
DW> people who believe that they are realistic are gullible.
Now _that_ is about as peculiar an invitation as I have
ever had. How _does_ one go about disbelieving all of
Heinlein's female characters? Sounds like a fundy view of
what atheists do: they suppose that we _work_ at generating
an active disbelief in some deity, rather than simply
experiencing an utter lack of belief in the unevidenced.
Having accomplished such a mental gymnastic, what then would
be the point in concerning oneself about others--the
believers--one way or another, except as a fundy might do?
What I said about the women is that they are hard to
tell apart. I expect that a more doable test might be to
have a sample of their various comments with the identifiers
removed and see whether a Heinlein fan could say with any
accuracy "These are the words of Floppsy, those are from
Moppsy, and the other one is certainly the opinion of
Cottontail." I find the women depicted in Playboy pretty
much the same way--apart from hair color (in various
places), they are all realized through the same gauze focus.
To meet them face to face would be meeting persons: meeting
them only in the version that has passed though the
"creative process" of photographer, editor, and airbrusher
is to encounter so many Barbie Dolls.
Perhaps Heinlein's problem in this book is that the
function the women fill is that of ardent followers. This
leaves little scope for individuality.
Hate to sound like a fundy, but one possibility for this
criticism being so widespread _might_ be that there is
something to it.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: MetroNet - Columbia, Maryland (1:261/1137)
--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Carl Pollock
|To: GWENNY THE POOH
|Sub: Re: Pray Contest
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:38:55
EID:8325 222374c0
<<=QUOTING Gwenny The Pooh @1:128/20 TO Carl Pollock=>>
RS@>> Which God would that be?
CP> The God which BILLIONS around the world love and trust.
GTP@> Ah. . .Buddha. I don't Christians have even made it to the billion
GTP@> mark yet.
Funny! I was sure they had! Oh well. I'm sure they will soon.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- VFIDO 7.12
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|From: Carl Pollock
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: Re: Pray Contest
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:38:56
EID:f77c 222374c0
<<=QUOTING Lynda Bustilloz @1:109/60 TO Carl Pollock=>>
CP> All right, so if you that you will recive it, and the
CP> athiests don't belive it, then they will accuse the thiests of lying!
CP> However, what we could do is the thiests pray for the athiests to get
CP> something, so that the athiests can't say that the thiests were lying!
LB@> Hey! There ya go! Pray just to cover your ass! Good idea! It's ok,
God
LB@> will NEVER figure it out that that's your sole motive...good deal!
And just what exactly is THAT supposed to mean?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- VFIDO 7.12
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|From: Satan
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: ASK AND YE SHAN'T REC
|Date: 02 Jan 97 14:05:47
EID:e4af 222270a0
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 5e9257b3
REPLY: 1:123/67 32c907f7
Wasn't it 31 Dec 96 when "Shelby Sherman" wrote to "Jim Staal"?
So, Shelby... you said...
SS> Satan doesn't exist either, Moron.
JS> Your opinion.
SS> It's not an opinion, it is the default state. Do you have any
SS> evidence that the god Satan exists?
JS> Is it necessary to be abusive just because we hold different
JS> opinions? I am no moron.
SS> Since opinions count, it is my opinion that you are a moron.
Clearly, it is you who are the moron...
From the quill of Satan...
... Decaffinated coffee? What the hell's the POINT!?
--- PPoint 2.02
* Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
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|From: Satan
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: WiCCA
|Date: 02 Jan 97 14:04:04
EID:559f 22227080
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 6c786d43
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73038b4f
Wasn't it 01 Jan 97 when "J.J. Hitt" wrote to "Chris Brown"?
So, J.J.... you said...
JH> On Dec 28 22:39 96, Chris Brown of 1:163/125 wrote:
CB> This has to be a joke.. Satan and Wicca have nothing to do
CB> with each other..
JH> Other than a complete lack of evidence to support their claims
JH> about the supernatural.
Like you have evidence to support YOUR claims...
From the quill of Satan...
... A man with a gun is safer than a man with a bible and a gun.
--- PPoint 2.02
* Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Brian Shreve
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 03 Jan 97 06:33:00
EID:baf5 22233420
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ d4cbcb3c
NC> "He was the Christ" but they do give credance that Jesus did
NC> actually exist.
SS> I'll bet you can't name one.
BS> I'll see your bet, and raise you five thousand.
Mr. Shreve, the remark was addressed to Mr. Cookson, a person who
has demonstrated in the past that, while his grasp of certainty is
total, his grasp of detail is less perfect.
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Welcome to the state of T
|Date: 03 Jan 97 08:31:00
EID:9219 222343e0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ fd8d1f78
MM> As I have told you earlier, I am one of those who seem to have
MM> been born without any religious urge, and I do not dread to
MM> become 'nothing' at death.
And I am another. Perhaps it's a function of our age? The 30s and
40s were not conducive to the creation of faith in the young (in
the absence of outside pressure).
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: The Alignment List
|Date: 03 Jan 97 11:00:00
EID:24dd 22235800
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 64833aa7
KW> WHO'S WHO: THE ALIGNMENT LIST:
JH> I'm not listed.
JH> Does this mean I'm out of alignment?
Good grief, who would dare suggest that you were ever aligned? Not
I, I assure you.
... "Maytag" is my middle name; I'm an agitator.
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Flexible Dating.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:31:10
EID:59f1 22244be0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88912f95
Hi Rick,
(Re: yours of 25-Dec-1996, "Flexible Dating.")
RM> Please, look up something on isochron methods, Laurie.
RM> There are NO assumptions involved. Until you learn
RM> something about modern technology, you are just spitting
RM> into the wind.
You betray your own ignorance so clearly, and display a
gullibility that indicates more of a FAITH position than a
scientific one. As I pointed out before;
"One serious consequence of the mantle isochron model
is that crystallization ages determined on basis igneous
rocks by the Rb-Sr whole technique can be greater than the
true age by many hundreds of millions of years. This
problem of inherited age is more serious for younger rocks,
and there are well-documented instances of conflicts
between stratigraphic age and Rb-Sr age in the literature."
(Dr C.Brooks (Professor of Geology, University of Montreal,
Quebec, Canada), Dr D.E.James (Staff Member in geophysics
and geochemistry, Carnegie Institution of Washington,
Washington D.C.,USA) and Dr S.R.Hart (Professor of
Geochemistry, Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences,
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, USA),
"Ancient lithosphere: its role in young continental
volcanism". Science, vol.193, 17 September 1976, p.1093.)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38036821 V34 +Node 1 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Outside of Science!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:31:46
EID:c4ab 22244be0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88912fdc
Hi Rick,
(Re: yours of 25-Dec-1996, "Outside of Science.")
LA> There is every possibility that there we no REAL "dates"
LA> at all, but a mass of invalid assumptions meaningless
LA> hypotheses, bolstered up with a totally unscientific
LA> "flexibility" that puts the whole shonky business right
LA> "outside of science" anyway.
RM> Learn something about isochron methods, Laurie. Then
RM> get back to me with your criticism about what "assumptions"
RM> are involved.
Again, it seems that you know very little about any of it.
However the following might help.
"In the conclusion to a recent paper exposing shortcomings
and criticising the validity of the popular
rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr) isochron method, Zheng wrote:"
". . . some of the basic assumptions of the
conventional Rb-Sr isochron method have to be modified
and an observed isochron does not certainly define a
valid age information for a geologicalsystem, even if a
goodness of fit of the experimental data points is
obtained in plotting 87Sr/86Sr vs. 87Rb/86Sr."
"This problem cannot be overlooked, especially in
evaluating the numerical time scale. Similar questions
can also arise in applying Sm-Nd and U-Pb isochron
methods." (1)
"Amongst the concerns voiced by Zheng were the problems
being found with anomolous isochrons, that is, where there is
an apparent linear relationship between 87Sr/86Sr and
87Rb/86Sr rations, even an excellent line of best fit
between ratios obtained from good cogenetic samples, and yet
the resultant isochron and derived 'age' have no distinct
geological meaning."
"Zheng documented the copious reporting of this problem
in literature where various names had been given to the
anomolous isochrons, such as apparent isochron, mantle
isochron and pseudoisochron, erupted isochron, mixing line,
and mixing isochron."
"Similar anomolous or false isochrons are commonly
obtained from U-Th-Pb data, which is hardly surprising given
the common open system behaviour of the U-Th-Pb system. Yet
in the literature these problems are commonly glossed over
or pushed aside, but their increasing occurrence from a
variety of geological settings does seriously raise the
question as to whether U-Th-Pb data ever yield any valid
'age' information."
(Creation Technical Journal, "The Failure of U-Th-Pb
'Dating' at Koongarra, Australia," Dr. Andrew A. Snelling,
Vol 9(1), 1995, p. 72) (1) Zheng Y.-F., 1989, Chemical
Geology, 80:1-16(p. 14)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38036821 V34 +Node 1 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Special Pleading.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:32:20
EID:f2f3 22244c00
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8891302b
Hi Rick,
(Re: yours of 25-Dec-1996, "Special Pleading.")
RM> Perfectly logical. No "wiggling" there at all.
LA> Oh yes, never let the facts bother you when you can made
LA> up a an unproved and speculative "MUST HAVE" answer! Great
LA> science indeed!
RM> Can you explain the whole rock isochrons in ANY other way?
See message prior to this one and there is plenty more.
LA> Yes I understand your problem here. An honest scientist
LA> would not cheat like that since that is quackery and
LA> deception. It is as you seem to do, "First minimizing the
LA> problems, then sweeping them under the carpet and then
LA> trying to forget them." With evolutionists that is done all
LA> the time it seems and that is why it is NOT real science at
LA> all!
RM> What the hell are you talking about? You think it's
RM> good science to use results that have been demonstrated to
RM> be WRONG? Please answer that question with a direct Yes or
RM> NO, so we can all tell exactly what your "science" looks
RM> like.
Rick, nothing to do with evolution is "good science" at
any time. Nothing ever "demonstrated" evolution and its
subsiduary claims to be wrong! Don't you know that evolution
is supposed to be a FACT - "Like apples falling from trees"!
You get "explanations" from what you or I might call
"wrong" - often they are just ad hoc guesses or secondary
excuses assumptions etc.!
RM> The failure to obtain a straight line plot in an
RM> isochron age determination is an independent confirmation
RM> that the system was open. Don't you understand that YET?
Here again is the quote that I left in the last message.
It might be worth your while to read it again at this point;
"In the conclusion to a recent paper exposing shortcomings
and criticising the validity of the popular
rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr) isochron method, Zheng wrote:"
". . . some of the basic assumptions of the
conventional Rb-Sr isochron method have to be modified
and an observed isochron does not certainly define a
valid age information for a geological system, even if a
goodness of fit of the experimental data points is
obtained in plotting 87Sr/86Sr vs. 87Rb/86Sr."
"This problem cannot be overlooked, especially in
evaluating the numerical time scale. Similar questions
can also arise in applying Sm-Nd and U-Pb isochron
methods." (1)
"Amongst the concerns voiced by Zheng were the problems
being found with anomolous isochrons, that is, where there is
an apparent linear relationship between 87Sr/86Sr and
87Rb/86Sr rations, even an excellent line of best fit
between ratios obtained from good cogenetic samples, and yet
the resultant isochron and derived 'age' have no distinct
geological meaning."
"Zheng documented the copious reporting of this problem
in literature where various names had been given to the
anomolous isochrons, such as apparent isochron, mantle
isochron and pseudoisochron, erupted isochron, mixing line,
and mixing isochron."
"Similar anomolous or false isochrons are commonly
obtained from U-Th-Pb data, which is hardly surprising given
the common open system behaviour of the U-Th-Pb system. Yet
in the literature these problems are commonly glossed over
or pushed aside, but their increasing occurrence from a
variety of geological settings does seriously raise the
question as to whether U-Th-Pb data ever yield any valid
'age' information."
(Creation Technical Journal, "The Failure of U-Th-Pb
'Dating' at Koongarra, Australia," Dr. Andrew A. Snelling,
Vol 9(1), 1995, p. 72) (1) Zheng Y.-F., 1989, Chemical
Geology, 80:1-16(p. 14)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Darrow Nonsense (b).
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:32:58
EID:c589 22244c00
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88913074
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 26-Dec-1996, "Darrow Nonsense (b).")
LA> Darrow argue strongly for BALANCED TREATMENT or was he
LA> arguing for evolution ONLY to be taught?
DC> He was arguing for the one thing you can't provide:
DC> Testible evidence that evolution exists as compared with
DC> dogmatic scripture.
What a shame for Darrow that NO TEST ever made for
evolution has ever confirmed it! It has FAILED every test
that they have so far thought up! Evolutionists themselves
admit this as the following shows;
"Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described,
one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations.
Every conceivable observation can be fitted into it. It is
thus "outside of empirical science" but not necessarily
false."
"No one can think of ways in which to test it. Ideas,
either without basis or based on a few laboratory
experiments carried out in extremely simplified systems,
have attained currency far beyond their validity. They have
become part of an evolutionary dogma accepted by most of us
as part of our training."
(Paul Ehrlich (Professor of Biology, Stanford University)
and L.Charles Birch (Professor of Biology, University of
Sydney), "Evolutionary history and population biology".
Nature, vol.214, 22 April 1967, p.352.)
So evolution is OUTSIDE OF SCIENCE or in other words
"NON-SCIENCE". So you can "BELIEVE" anything you like but
evolution is NOT science!
Now just as an aside;
Did you know that scientists have concluded that the MOON
is moving away from the Earth at the rate of about 4
centimeters per year and that 3,500 million years ago it was
only ONE-SIXTH its present distance from the earth? What
sort of TIDES do you expect the Earth would have experienced
at that time? What effect would such tides have on erosion
and mountains?
What sort of tides might the earth have experienced at
the time of the alleged Cambrian explosion of life
supposedly 600 million years ago? How close do you imagine
that the moon could be to the earth before all life was
impossible?
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: Quentin Fai
|Sub: Re: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:33:11
EID:3de8 22239420
MSGID: 1:106/113 73234da4
QF> ... Pro-life? Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE.
Concider this one STOLEN! Ah loves it!
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: All
|Sub: xtian snobbishery
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:34:22
EID:8d5e 22239440
MSGID: 1:106/113 7323c059
if you are gay, i could care less, but
REPENT you evil one, or ye shall endeth up in Hades!
if you are pro-choice, i also couldn't give a rats bass, however
YOU aint no christian!
AND! You sanction the murder of the unborn.
if your race is anything but caucasion,
your non lily white butt is the slime of life!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Nope, I do not believe nor endorse what I said above, but I
tell ya, every time I come in here, or in some of the other msg
bases, it's all I see folks saying, or the ones that aren't
practicing such xtian snobbishery are vainly and valiantly
arguing with the morons that actually do believe what they're
saying is of God. (uh, that is, if such a god even exists, and I
do suspect strongly in the existance of such deity)
Now, I just have two questions . . .
1- What do you think of an Episcopal church ordering 16 cases of
wine from a distributor and having it delivered to the churches
cafeteria area?
2- What is your opinion for the trend of some of the major churches
turning to accepting into their membership roles, the gay community?
Two honest comments regarding my opinion of each of the questions:
1) I was religiously abused during my youth which affects my thinking
of the church; I have some really warped ideas of what a church ought
to be, to do, and signify. I was dumbfounded that such a purchase had
been made. For some reason, not exactly sure of the mechanisms there,
but I felt betrayed and angry.
2) I've always felt that being gay is not a choice a person has. Being
gay is in the genes, no more, no less. The church allows diabetics
and morphadites and people born without an arm or something to be
members in good standing.
Final comment:
I truly dislike fear mongerers, hate mongerers, shame mongerers of
this world, such as the likes of Nate Cookson and those like him,
calling themselves christians, speaking for god. Don't know about
you and your god, but my God can speak for himself very well.
However, it is that small portion of so called christians (self
proclaimed) that make me almost ashamed to call myself a christian.
While I may be wrong, I doubt that I'll see these shame mongerers
in the Heavens, if indeed there is a heaven. I believe God exists,
I believe as prophesied that Jesus is the son of God, and came to
die for our sins...BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE to believe, I feel best
believing and hoping that this is true, it gives me some comfort.
But I will never say this is TRUE, cause I simply do not KNOW, I
merely believe.
g'day to you, heathens, beasts, and good people of this msg base!
Brian
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Why do you NEED
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:44:38
EID:843a 22230d80
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c0e
REPLY: 1:3603/210 14a69d1f
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to ROBERT CURRY, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 31
Dec 96 16:12:00:
SH>> Because you ask questions like a Gestapo interrogator...
RC> Hardly. She made a perfectly reasonable inquiry. It's silly for
RC> you to demand that she answer your question about "sponge cats"
RC> (whatever those might be) before you explain what you mean by
RC> the phrase.
SH> Gestapo interrogators usually have reasons for the questions
SH> they ask too.
RC>
RC> So what was the reason for your silly question about "sponge cats?"
RC> Enough Nazi-nonsense from South Africa, already. You asked her a
RC> question about "sponge cats" and she inquired to ask what you meant
RC> by that weird phrase. If you have no answer, just say so.
Answer the question, bozo.
... Those darn Unitarians burned a question mark on my lawn!
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Why do you NEED
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:46:13
EID:f03a 22230dc0
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c0f
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32ca2f61
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Gwenny the Pooh, who wrote to Steve Hayes on
01 Jan 97 04:32:48:
SH>> Because you ask questions like a Gestapo interrogator...
RC>>
RC>> Hardly. She made a perfectly reasonable inquiry. It's silly for
RC>> you to demand that she answer your question about "sponge cats"
RC>> (whatever those might be) before you explain what you mean by
RC>> the phrase. So just what are sponge cats? Hmmm?
SH> Gestapo interrogators usually have reasons for the questions they ask
too.
GtP> Answer the question, what are sponge cats?
Answer the question....
... I saw George Hatchew sitting next to Elvis and Bigfoot in the UFO
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:47:28
EID:5121 22230de0
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c10
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32ca2f76
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Gwenny the Pooh, who wrote to Steve Hayes on
01 Jan 97 04:33:20:
SH> Whether I like the answer or not is irrelevant.
GtP> Just as you are.
... Gwenny the Pooh's mindless ad hominems continue
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Why do you NEED
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:48:46
EID:a0cc 22230e00
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c11
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 ed2ffd6f
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Dan Ceppa, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 31 Dec
96 14:38:02:
SH> Gestapo interrogators usually have reasons for the questions they ask
SH> too.
DC> Please show where torture is being applied to you to answer
DC> the fucking question.
What question was that?
I don't remember being asked such a question?
... Dan Ceppa's obfuscatory ramblings continue to mystify me
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:50:01
EID:4d1e 22230e40
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c12
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 6d633e48
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Dan Ceppa, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 31 Dec
96 14:38:22:
DC> Go clean youself up and make yourself reasonably clean the
DC> next time you try to throw your snot all over everyone.
... Dan Ceppa's mindless ad hominems continue
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:51:03
EID:e5cf 22230e60
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c13
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cac5af
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Glen Todd, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 01 Jan
97 15:14:02:
SH> Whether I like the answer or not is irrelevant.
GT> Precisely.
At last!
Someone who understands!
... How could you nurd me with your cordwangle so?
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:52:21
EID:5935 22230e80
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c14
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32ca6e47
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Al Schroeder, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 31
Dec 96 21:23:43:
SH> So from a Christian point of view, the question is not why anyone
SH> needs to be saved, but why anyone needs to stay in the concentration
SH> camp.
AS> Well said. Another C.S. Lewis fan, I see.
AS> Of course, be prepared. They're going to ask you why the
AS> concentration camp was allowed to be built at all.
Well, perhaps, though I haven't seen that much intelligence at all yet -
just salivating reactions, even when the bell hasn't rung. And if anyone
of these "interlocutors" (if one can call them that) has shown any sign
of getting beyond the salivation stage, they seem to demonstrate the kind
of authoritarianism that seems to be characteristic of gaurds in concentration
camps.
The answer, as far as I am concerned, is that to prevent the building of
concentration camps, one would have to build a concentration camp to house
all the potential builders of concentration camps.
... If you're not part of the solution, you must be precipitate
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:49:00
EID:ae9f 22215620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf6fd
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Jim Staal cast False Christian Scum at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
SA> Good for you; you're trying something you want to do, and feel
SA> yourself good at.
JS> Thank you, and, I will admit it is not necessarily for everyone, but
JS> slowly but surely I am building a 'fan base'.
Hey, good stuff. Good luck at it.
JS> 'scuse my ignorance, but what is it that you do?
SA> A comic strip. I've bound several dozens of them into book form for
SA> sale.
JS> No kidding!? Would you consider scanning one to a .gif or .jpg for
JS> DCC in chat sometime? I would very much like to see your work.
Well, OK. I do have a file sitting around that I can send the next
time I see you around. Else you can take a peek and grab the sample
at Al's web site:
http://www.nashville.com/~al.schroeder/do.html
I'm not specifically using the shareware concept any more; I don't
know if Al's changed this, as my Netscape keeps crashing, and I
don't get to see much of anything on the web. It's now merely a
"sneak peek"; those who like the first samples can choose whether or
not they want to order the book.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... "Rising with the full moon, to go howling through the night" -- Rush
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: fundy clown
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:53:01
EID:3425 222156a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf6fe
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Jim Staal cast fundy clown at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.
SA> I'd watch that tactic, Jim. Sean's picked up on it - ie, saying
SA> something vitriolic, and shrugging it off as a joke - and uses it as
SA> well.
SA> And Marty at least doesn't sit around and blame others for
SA> everything that doesn't go exactly his way.
JS> I would hope he wouldn't. The guy has dough. That _makes_ things go
JS> his way.
The golden rule - he who has the gold, makes the rules. :)
SA> Mm. The next time you go, I'll direct you to actual NICE places to
SA> eat. :)
JS> Great. We can compare yours to the ones I have already experienced.
JS> (in ten years, I have visited a few)
Mm. Have you ever been to the Real Jerk out near the Beaches area?
(Funny name, but excellent Jamaican restaurant. You have to go
early, though, because you won't be getting seating after about 7,
unless they've expanded or moved.)
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... "Vote OUI - Or the rest of Canada will laugh" - Seperatist slogan
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Political Party
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:55:02
EID:2195 222156e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf6ff
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast Political Party at Sue Armstrong ..
and all hell broke loose.
SA> Representation is chosen directly from neighbourhoods, factories and
SA> other places of work, schools, etc; the idea is the elimination of
SA> the concept of the political party, period. There is no need for a
SA> party, and in fact, parties are known to grossly go against the
SA> wishes of the people. This is what the party I am allied with works
SA> for, NOT centralised production by either the state or a few
SA> individuals.
DL> Well, by the above criteria, said party wouldn't be the PC, Lib,
DL> or even the PQ.
Right.
DL> The only thing that comes close (at least the impretion they want to
DL> give) would be the Reform Party. Tho' I would take it that this isn't
DL> the party you are refering to?
Hell, no. Reform is full of fundy nutters; I wouldn't trust them
with governing a hog byre, never mind the country.
DL> So, if it's not to personal, which party is it.
CPC(M-L).
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... A new game-Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego's luggage?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: True story. [1/2]
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:56:03
EID:477a 22215700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf700
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Making a good die roll, Marty Leipzig cast True story. at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
ML> Do you accept rubles?
SA> Sure! I'll accept Isle of Yap coinage, too, but I don't think my
SA> mail carrier would like that much.
ML> OK, I'll carve them out of pumice, that way they'll still be
ML> bulky, but not so heavy.
Woo hoo! Don't know where I'll keep them - I could keep them out in the
hallway (who'd steal 'em?) but it's only a very NARROW hallway ..
SA> If anything, the possession of weird kinds of currency would simply
SA> be something interesting to have, whether or not I could cash it.
ML> As I mentioned earlier, I need your address again. I'll include
ML> some rubles just for grins.
Heheh. OK, sounds fun.
S. Armstrong
570 Church St. #8 (yes, seriously.)
Windsor, Ontario
N9A 4S9
Give it a month, max, to get there; if you don't get it by that
time, give me a call: (519)-253-9123. I sent out a package to Doug
Lee, but I'm not sure if he got it yet.
SA> But, oh my, that's not very businesslike of me is it? Oh, well, who
SA> cares? I find some of what I'm learning in business class rather
SA> repulsive, anyway.
ML> It goes with the territory.
I suppose it does.
SA> Y'know, my classmates thought I was weird when I told them about the
SA> check a fellow HolySmoker sent - it was way too much for the one
SA> copy requested, and I explained I couldn't ethically keep the
SA> excess. I've mailed two copies, and remitted a cheque for the
SA> excess beyond that cost .. they were rather mystified as to why I
SA> did it, or agonised over several choices I had (the one I went with,
SA> or sending the cheque back, or sending one copy and remitting the
SA> extra $12.) They just couldn't grok my dilemma.
ML> They're fundies, right?
Actually, no. One is, but I don't think the others are.
SA> I also note that there is no unit under the heading of "business
SA> ethics" on the class schedule. If business people aren't expected
SA> to have ethics, well, I'd rather not consider myself a business
SA> person.
ML> "Business ethics" is a book that about as thick as "Great fundy
ML> scientists".
And probably about as real. :)
SA> I think instructing him to go to the library was probably
SA> blasphemous enough to him.
ML> "You jerk! You kneebiter! GO TO......THE LIBRARY!"
SA> "Oh, noooo! Not THAT!"
ML> "And then...we'll actually make you read!"
SA>
SA> "Aiiiigh!" :)
ML> "...books with no pictures..."
ML> "ARRGHHHH!"
Oh, the horror ..
ML> Unfortunately, they are too ignorant to understand even visual
ML> cues.
SA> Illiteracy comes in many forms, I suppose.
ML> Amazing that they can respire unaided.
Heh. Perhaps they have computerised implants which aid in this -
isn't modern technology wonderful?
SA> Big assumption.
SA> Perhaps the image of a great huge monster ripping into a
SA> bible-thumper would be more to the point?
ML> Now there's a thought. The Queen Alien and a fundie standing in
ML> for Bishop, the bisected android...
SA> Hmm. Though you might need something a little more blatant than
SA> that ..
ML> Sheesh, what? An air-strike?
ML> How's that for subtlety?
Perfect! :)
Although some people are just hopelessly stupid. I was kept awake a
few nights ago by some woman knocking on doors beginning at 3 am,
and wouldn't let up until 11. I warned her that if she kept it up,
I was going to call the cops; I'm not in a good mood at that time of
the morning. And so I did, but they just gave her a good
talking-to, and she was at it again a half-hour later. Her problem
seemed to be that some guy across the hall had her keys and coat,
and she wanted them NOW.
Normally, I'd sympathise; but I find people who knock loudly at the
wee hours of the morning completely inconsiderate. After the cops
left, and she started knocking again, she knocked on MY door, asking
to use the phone. I informed her that there was a pay phone next
door at the 7-11. "So?" she says. I told her to go away several
times, and she kept insisting I allow her to use my phone (we were
shouting from opposite sides of my door) because she "didn't know
the number". I told her that 411 was a free call. "So?" the reply
comes again, "I want to use your phone!" After this, I lost my
temper, yelling at the top of my voice, "GO AWAY! YOU'VE KEPT ME UP
SINCE 3 AM WITH YOUR FUCKING KNOCKING - I'M NOT INCLINED TO HELP YOU
AT ALL! GO THE _FUCK_ AWAY!"
She gave up on my door after that, but kept on down the hall (thin
walls - you can hear stuff going on in the hallway from one's room,
although you can't generally hear stuff going on in one room from
another room, unless you or they have the door open.) After I gave
up on sleep, around 7 am, I told her as I came in from getting a
bottle of pop at the afrementioned 7-11 that I would have given her
a damn quarter if she had been considerate enough to wait until
daytime to begin her knocking fest. She said "I don't need a
quarter. I have $10 on me". Now that's REALLY infuriating. Worse,
she jumped my way as I opened the door - I slammed it shut behind
me, locking it QUICK. She began banging, and even _tested the
doorknob_, demanding I let her use my phone because she wanted to
call the "landlord". I informed her that the "landlord" was a
corporation that keeps business hours. "But that's two hours
away!", she whines. "Well, goody, goody. Go grab a coffee
somewhere. Just go away!" She kept knocking, and knocking and
knocking .. so at 8 am, I figured it was a decent enough time to
turn on some music - at a level which I knew could be heard quite
clearly in the hallway, but not in any other room (including the
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: True story. [2/2]
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:56:04
EID:037a 22215700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf701
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...
neighbouring bathroom; I tested it, and its wall is adjacent to
mine.) And I play music that others find extremely annoying - Celtic
folk "rock" that has its origins in bardic music of several hundred
years ago (and most of the songs indeed are marked as
"traditional".) Every time she tried to knock on my door after that,
I just turned the music up a couple of notches and ignored her.
I did hear her talking with SOMEONE around 11; I don't know if she
got her stuff or not, or whether someone else filed a complaint and
she finally got hauled off, and I haven't slept at home the past
couple nights. If she shows up AGAIN, however, I'll tell the police
that she's acting crazy and dangerous. Which she was doing; jumping
at my door, thinking she could muscle her way in. Sheeit; if she
had made the distance in time, I'd have decked her for touching my
door. Period.
Perhaps I need to write up a special cartoon that illustrates just
what I think of people like this, and hang THAT on my door as well.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Survival tip: Never MOON a werewolf.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: ask and ye shall rece
|Date: 01 Jan 97 11:16:05
EID:81af 22215a00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf702
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Dave Hamilton cast ask and ye shall rece at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> I was kinda wondering myself. It tastes like it goes skunky a mere
SA> hour after it leaves the brewery.
DH> I guess I've just never had it within an hour of leaving
DH> the brewery to be able to appreciate any improvement on the
DH> shelf stuff. It tastes like salt water to me.
I don't even think it tastes THAT good.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Borg? Where? I don't see-- *(#$#..NO CARRIER
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 01 Jan 97 11:17:06
EID:f226 22215a20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf703
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Al Schroeder cast False Christian Scum at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
SA> I've seen nothing but extremism from Sean, followed with his "just a
SA> joke" disclaimer, which appears to be very little more than a simple
SA> way of saying "don't flame me - I can't take it!"
AS>
AS> Well, I've sometimes seen what I consider "normal" responses from
AS> Sean...i.e., normal for everybody else. I used to get my feathers
AS> ruffled about his "EVERY deathcultist needs to" ...but then I realized
AS> he didn't mean much of it.
Oh, I think he means more than he wants people to think he does.
SA> his consistency, and from what Becke has mentioned, I can't see any
SA> evidence at all that he does NOT mean what he says when he spouts
SA> his vitriol about peoples he seems to hold responsible for his own
SA> failings.
AS> Well, certainly Becke had more personal experience with him than I
AS> have.
Yes; and notice her personal opinion of him isn't very high,
either.
SA> If he IS joking, then he's as seriously split-personality - or more
SA> so - than Staal ever appeared to be, and should seek serious
SA> psychiatric help for a few decades.
AS>
AS> Or maybe this outlet is what is needed to KEEP him from needing to do
AS> so...a way to let loose his outrageousness.
Perhaps. But if someone's going to snap, they're going to snap.
SA> And he seems to have done it to slough off his own shortcomings in
SA> that relationship and lay every bit of blame on her, to assauge his
SA> own precious ego. The "man" could not even afford the $100 or so it
SA> would have taken for him to visit, and expected Becke to pay the
SA> whole tab. And yet he complains about others being a "burden"; he
SA> doesn't seem to mind being one himself.
AS> I know Becke has off and on been in hard financial positions herself,
AS> also.
So's Paul. But of course, Sean won't see that; he probably thinks
Becke chose Paul simply BECAUSE he's deeply in debt .. a twisted
logic if I've ever seen one.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... This has been recorded on sticky-tape and rust ...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: 2 Corinthians 9:13
|Date: 01 Jan 97 11:29:07
EID:013c 22215ba0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf704
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Martin Goldberg cast 2 Corinthians 9:13 at Christian
Hedemark .. and all hell broke loose.
MG>> CH> Please! Don't use the tast tense. "Jesus Saves"
MG>>Non biblical evidence for this nonsense please.
CH> "Jesus Saves" is present. Even now.
MG> Listen, Junior...I already twitted one liar today because he lied and
MG> used semantic games to argue.
MG> I wnat non biblical evidence that jesus saves. Is tht too much to
MG> ask?
Maybe he has a Swiss bank account, and is trying to keep it secret.
Shhh.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: 2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:14:00
EID:4473 222281c0
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to Roger Hunter <=-
GTP> Can you convert to believing in a fact that has been
GTP> established?
No conversion is necessary for that; I -do- believe in established facts.
GTP> Why would I need to have someone hire me if I could get all the money
GTP> I needed by myself?? Tell you what, join my cult now, and you'll
Yeah. That's the answer to the "buy my book on how to get rich" schemes.
GTP> qualify to take advantage of anything I learn. You just have to
GTP> believe I have breasts.
Not without first hand evidence
RH> I found $50 at Red Lobster yesterday, does that count?
GTP> Had you thought you wanted to find money? Was it the right phase of
No, but it's always welcome.
GTP> the moon? What time of day was it? Etc, etc. You know, sometimes
a
How would you determine the "right" phase?
As an aside, I've conducted extensive research in Astrology as it
relates to earthquake prediction and can say positively that there's
nothing to it.
GTP> cigar is just a cigar and most of the time a coincidence is just that.
Too true.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:17:00
EID:7895 22228220
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Yes. Copyright yourself NOW. If someone gets hold of a bootleg
AS> copy... Silly as it sounds, that might be a legal matter in the far
AS> future... He also postulated that the best way to explore the universe
AS> is for virtual selves to go in starships, who would never age, and
AS> thus the lightspeed barrier would be irrelevant...what would they care
AS> if it takes hundreds of years to go from star to star.
What would WE care, for that matter. If we were in contact with them,
it would take too long. If we were not, we might as well not bother
as we would gain nothing from it.
AS> Someone else's Heaven might include a copy of you, also. Or
AS> someone else's Hell. Tipler argued long that a perfect simulation IS
AS> the same as the original person in any substantial way (a difference
AS> that makes no difference IS no difference.)...but not to my mind,
AS> conclusively. For that matter, a sadist. He makes virtual copies of
AS> his victims. He "tortures" the virtual selves. He doesn't touch the
AS> originals. The virtual
AS> selves "feel" the pain, every bit as much agony as if it and they
AS> were real. They cry and moan like those in Auchswitz. Can they
AS> complain? Can they sue? Can they get the sadist prosecuted?
AS> Oh, brave new world. But it's one of those things that sound like
AS> it will eventually happen...
I'm waiting for virtual sex. Can one be divorced over that?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DARK BIBLE #4
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:20:00
EID:58bf 22228280
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> My wife belongs to a farming family (yes, I DID marry a farmer's
AS> daughter)...sometimes farmers have REAL reason to pray...
And usually it does them no good either...
AS> to change bit more likely? Of course, we have to remember, that most
AS> of the others are using their MINDS, not a random number generation,
AS> and all his quantum god would have to do is influence the flow of
AS> electrons into THEIR
AS> mind, also...
Yes. This requires that God be outside of time, to know the winning
number and be able to influence you to choose the winning number
before the balls have chosen it.
... What do you mean? You actually read this Tagline?!?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GOD VS. SANTA CLAUS
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:42:00
EID:6150 22228540
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Sure. What does a God lose by dying? What kind of sacrifice is death
RH> to an immortal God?
AS> Depends on how human He was. I think He felt the PAIN, personally,
AS> every bit as much as you and I do. I even think...my opinion, no
AS> church dogma, just my opinion...that at one point, during the
AS> Crucifixion, God...withdrew Himself from Jesus. That Jesus was at THAT
That's not possible if Jesus was/is God. You are suggesting a merely
human man infused with the spirit of God. That's a heresy of some
sort, I think.
AS> point Man and JUST Man. That all of the sudden, the link Jesus had
AS> felt with God all His
AS> life had been cut...as if He had been amputated. For He was tempted
AS> "in all ways like us". A temptation to give into despair is with us,
AS> always. Often caused by a sense of seperation from God. He could not
AS> experience that without being seperated from God...and to make sure
AS> that no one could
AS> say afterwards, "well, it's easy to survive doubt in GOOD
AS> circumstances, but how about when all the odds are stacked against
AS> you, and the screws are tightening" He did it while Jesus was in the
AS> worst possible position. Hence the cry (echoed from the OT) "My God,
AS> my God, why hast Thou forsaken
I thought that was just a reference to Isaiah or something?
AS> me!" Later Jesus was reabsorbed into the whole. But for a time there,
AS> He faced life as we all do, without any surety or link to God...at the
AS> worst POSSIBLE time. So no one can go up to God and say, "Well, if you
AS> had to endure what _I_ did..." without God being able to answer back,
AS> "I went through something at least as bad, anyway..."
But He (God) didn't. According to you above He separated Himself from
the man at that time, thus did not experience it.
RH> Oh yeah, sure. "See, all you do is die, then get resurrected." That's
RH> a BIG help, Al.
AS> Hmmm. I'm going to HAVE to get a new copy of that book. Arguing with
AS> decades-old memories isn't helping...does the PASSOVER PLOT have
AS> examples of where someone fooled themselves into excusing a hoax as
a
AS> fulfillment of scripture, instead?
Actually, it quotes a bunch of scripture and says that it is possible
to interpret it as saying that the Messiah would not really die.
AS> Non-believers before, or non-believers after? If after, it doesn't
AS> make sense..."Oh, yeah, I saw Jesus walking around after his death,
AS> but hey, I don't BELIEVE in it?" If non-believer before but believer
Before, of course. You asked what would convince me.
AS> afterwards, I cite James, the brother of Jesus...who thought He was
AS> crazy before, but is
AS> cited by Paul as one of those to Jesus appeared to...and according to
AS> Acts
AS> was later head of the Jerusalem Church. (I always liked the
AS> apocryphal story of Jesus' appearance to James..."The Son of MAn has
AS> risen from among
AS> those who sleep"...but then, I'm a younger brother. Although my older
AS> brother is a LOOOONG way from a Christ-figure....)_
And I specifically ruled out biblical quotes.
RH> Me neither. Comet strikes are well understood and leave physical
RH> evidence behind.
AS> But explaining an entire class of animals disappearing, perhaps,
AS> is...at least unusual...with such an event.
No, it's an expected result of such an event. The next one will
take US out, if we're still here.
AS> that HAS been classed as "extraordinary" which in turn wasn't
AS> believed until "extraordinary" evidence was produced?
RH> Sure. Continental drift. No one believed it at first because it
RH> was contrary to what we knew of the Earth at the time. It took
RH> the additional evidence of magnetic lineations to finally convince
RH> everyone.
AS> Excellent! And we in turn may be awaiting more evidence...
But you keep saying we can't wait, we must decide NOW, before we
die and are fried.
BTW, in my small library is "An Intelligent Man's Guide to Science"
by Asimov, in which he concludes that continental drift is impossible.
RH> All right. Never mind 2,000 year old stories. What modern,
RH> investigated acknowledged miracle can you point to?
AS> Well, I'm at a disadvantage here, Roger, in that I don't think
AS> miracles occur at random. I don't think a lot of miracles DO happen
Did I say random anywhere?
AS> today, although I acknowledge the possibility. (There was something
in
AS> the paper recently how a local coffee shop has a cinnamon bun that
AS> came out shaped like Mother Teresa's face...with the nun's habit,
AS> etc...and they are keeping it under glass for people to oooooohhh
AS> over. You can imagine how little credence I give to THAT.) I think
Saw it. Looked like a stale bun to me.
AS> God is not so clumsy a workman as to constantly NEED miracles, save
AS> when it makes greater sense in His overall plan. (For instance, in the
AS> Christian worldview, Jesus' Death and Resurrection, far from being a
AS> joker God tossed into the pack of ordinary events, is actually what
AS> the whole drama of life and death was leading UP to, and the gateway
AS> to the next stage.) But I can name an event...extensively
AS> studied...where an object appeared literally out of nothing, with
AS> nothing to precede it---expanded much faster than the speed of light
AS> for a short while--and seems curiously self-organizing without any
AS> immediately perceivable designer. All three would strike me as
AS> miraculous taken seperately...if one told me, say, something appeared
AS> out of thin air, I'd go, "Yeah, RIGHT..." and walk away...or that a
AS> natural object sudddenly produced Cabbage PAtch Dolls, without there
AS> being a designer...or someone told me a spaceship just broke the light
AS> barrier. The universe. (With Linde's or Guth's inflationary
AS> hypothesis thrown in, which allows for expansion of the universe
AS> faster than light for a brief period.)
You see a miracle and imagine a superfriend to explain it. I say we
are unable to speak intelligently about the Big Bang itself.
See the difference?
... This tagline is made just for Al Schroeder
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GOD AL AND RAPE A CHI
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:11:00
EID:d16b 22229160
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Ronald Vass <=-
AS> No one ever asked me the question that were asked of some others, if
AS> God appeared to me and asked me to sacrifice my kids, would I do it?
AS> (Or for that matter, ANY kids.)
AS> The answer is no.
AS> If it damn my soul for eternity, I would not do it.
AS> Never.
AS> Ever.
Ahem...-I- did, Al, not too long ago. Or was it someone else?
I gotta start archiving things....
But why wouldn't you do it? They'd go straight to Heaven, surely?
AS> As evidence for what? What are you talking about? Where does
AS> God...specifically...encourage kids to be raped?
"but keep all the virgins for yourself, that have not known a man..."
What else would you call it?
... Where's a fool and his money when you need them?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Adultery, etc.
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:07:00
EID:070b 222268e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3766
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Adultery, etc. at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
KW> Anyway, Glen didn't say that pagans are unfaithful, he said that as
we
KW> pagan women are not the property of our men, the concept of 'adultery'
KW> doesn't apply to us.
SA> Frankly, I don't see the point in "open" marriages. If both (or
SA> one) agree to run around, then why bother getting married under ANY
SA> ceremony, religious (of any faith) or civil? It might give nifty
SA> tax benefits of some sort, but in places that allow "common-law"
SA> setups, you can claim those anyway after living together after a
SA> certain period of time. But I see little point in even referring to
SA> someone as their "common-law" spouse if one or the other (or both)
SA> sleep with whomever comes along. Any marriage, of whatever sort,
SA> without fidelity between both partners is kind of pointless.
JS> Sue, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I think you are
JS> talking about some sort of "idealized" marriage, not marriage as it
JS> functions as an institution in the real world.
I'm basically speaking of the concept of marriage, and questioning
what it means when one or both partners agree to take other
partners.
JS> Some points of reality. Many married men are, in fact, unfaithful to
JS> their wives. So, now, where does this leave the wife? Is she still
JS> bound by her marriage vows to remain faithful to her husband, at
JS> least until she divorces him? Are you interpreting the wife's vow of
JS> fidelity to mean unconditional fidelity--regardless of the fidelity
of
JS> the husband? Should a wife have the option of divorce--if the wedding
JS> vows say "till death do us part"? If she has the option, should she
JS> take it? (Presumably you know all the feminist-cited statistics about
JS> how wives fare economically after divorces.)
Oh, I'm not denying that infidelity happens, or that someone should
be cuckolded and should just keep their traps shut; far from it. In
fact, I think the cuckolded partner has every right to pack up and
leave with no further notice once s/he finds out.
What I was mainly questioning was the point in getting married in
the first place when both partners agree that they should be allowed
to have other partners (or when one partner insists s/he be allowed
to have other partners, that just because s/he is now married
doesn't mean s/he has a "right" to take other partners.)
JS> One of the main purposes of marriage is to provide a nurturing
JS> environment for the rearing of children. Often, a divorce will
JS> do great psychological harm to children. So many an unhappy couple
JS> stays together until the children are grown up, and then gets
JS> divorced.
Frankly, staying together "for the kids", or getting married simply
to have kids with one another is a very bad reason to get married.
After all, you can breed all you want without getting married; it
_should_ be that each partner is committed to the other that is the
reason for marriage ... anything else simply doesn't last, or is
rather pointless.
JS> The French have a saying: "The chain of wedlock is so heavy it
JS> takes two to carry it--sometimes three."
JS> Frankly, I see a legalistic-contractual view of marriage as
JS> unrealistic. And I think that someone like Clinton, who sticks with
JS> his marriage and his child even though engaging in philandering, is
JS> probably better than someone like Dole, who just divorces his first
JS> wife and gets a younger model, but appears to have been technically
JS> "faithful" to each. Yes, infidelity is an evil. Ideally, it wouldn't
JS> happen. But in the real world, we often have to accept the lesser of
JS> two evils.
Again, I see both Clinton's and Dole's arrangements as rather
pointless. If you think you're gonna want to screw around with
others all your life, or that you want the "perfect" mate (and
decide that you'll put your current mate away just because they
become ugly, incapacitated or whatnot) why bother getting married?
I actually know a couple of "swingers"; they were friends of mine
when I was a teenager, and they moved back to town last year. Since
I hadn't seen them since just before they got married, I was more
than happy to hear from them again, and go visit at their new home.
While there, however, they attempted to get me to consent to their
weird little lifestyle of getting others into their sexual rondelet; I
ran for it, and haven't contacted them since. They have three kids
now .. they explained that they're together only because of the
kids, but take whatever partners they can each get. What the hell
is the point in that? Why did they get married in the first place?
I have no idea. THey seemed happy enough, but there didn't seem to
be much point in their getting married oh, so many years ago -
except that her parents were strict traditionalists, and demanded
they get married when she got preggers. So it seems they stay
married, not so much for the kids, but so as not to bring shame upon
her in the eyes of her parents, which is really DUMB. If they were
simply living together, well, that might be a different story, but
married? What's the utter point? The very term "marriage"
insinuates exclusivity, and the term "open marriage" is pretty much
an oxymoron.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... It's a Federal 3-Ring Circus, it's called Democracy ...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Public Service Ads [1/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:22:01
EID:e630 22226ac0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3767
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Public Service Ads at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
JS> Is it true that many teenagers do not know how to say "no" to sex?
SA> I think the comment about "social skills" is more on the mark;
SA> social skills are something that have to be learned, in any
SA> vertebrate social species.
JS> Agreed. But are there really no forums (fora?) for such learning
JS> in today's society?
Not really. If there was one paid for by taxpayer's money (say, in
schools) the fundies would probably nix it, anyway, because it
"teaches sex".
JS> I turn on the TV and see an ad where a black boy of about 10 or so is
JS> given a "sales pitch" to do drugs by an older man--have some on me,
JS> the first one is free--and all the standard pusher talk. The boy
JS> keeps saying "no, get lost" despite repeated badgering. The ad closes
JS> with the camera pulling back to see the older man, who turns out to
be
JS> the boy's father--and it becomes obvious that they were role-playing.
JS> The father puts his arm around the boy and congratulates him. Then
JS> you see the logo for "Partnership for a Drug-Free America" or
JS> whatever.
JS> I think it is a good ad, and suggests a good practice for parents and
JS> their children. Can't something similar be done for girls and sex? (I
JS> don't just mean an ad, I mean role playing activities by parents,
JS> teachers, older sisters, whomever, with young girls.)
Oh, it probably could be, IF you could get the kid to see beyond
playing a game. Teenagers tend to hear whatever their elders say,
mutter "yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it" and then turn around and do what
they will, anyway. Just roleplaying out a guy selling drugs, or a
guy pressuring sex, doesn't mean much unless some very good reasons
are given as to WHY one should say "no", and even then it's no
guarantee that the kid won't go out and see for him/her self what
it's all about.
And harping on something endlessly can, indeed, just pique someone's
interest and curiosity, as much as simply ignoring it can.
I went through roleplaying in the course I'm taking; didn't teach me
a diddly damn thing, frankly, but then I'm too used to using
roleplaying as more of a recreational than an educational
experience.
SA> It takes experience and hard
SA> knocks to learn when and to whom to say "yes" and "no". And some
SA> people simply don't ever learn.
JS> All the more reason for somewhat formal classes or role-playing
JS> exercises. We have classes for virtually everything else,
JS> from touch typing to dancing lessons to soccer practice, etc., why
JS> not for this if it is so important and if the need is not being met
JS> informally?
Fundies and their opposition to sex-ed classes of any sort, most
likely. Or else there just MIGHT be programmes and such (church and
school) but teenagers simply ignore it and do as they will. After
all, if they mostly just sit around and watch TV otherwise, they
witness hours upon hours of shows telling them how sex can make them
popular and so on. Television is a great persuader - if it weren't,
no one would pay $130,000 for a few seconds of advertising time.
SA> Speaking of teenagers, I recently saw a Beavis and Butthead show for
SA> the first time. While most of the humour was base and stupid
SA> (though I DID like it when they went to apply for a 900 number, and
SA> decided signing their names and putting the day's date was too hard
SA> to bother with even though they were already approved), I think it
SA> might just be rather accurate commentary on the state of teenagers
SA> today, at least from what I've seen of some of them, even those who
SA> have the wit to use a computer. I don't call the local chat board
SA> at all any more, because of the twits who come on and 1) expect to
SA> find instant sex, and 2) can't construct a sentence, spell, or
SA> comment on anything beyond heavy metal or alternative music and
SA> sports.
JS> I do call a number of local boards, often to play RPGs like LORD.
JS> I read the message sections, often written by teens. Many teens seem
JS> virtually inarticulate. Most apparently don't know what a dictionary
JS> is and couldn't spell if their lives depended on it. Sometimes they
JS> talk about religion--often incoherently. One young man was saying he
JS> had no religious beliefs and therefore declared himself
JS> "an antagonistic." [sic] I had to explain to him that he meant to
JS> say "an agnostic." He replied with great confusion: "Then what does
JS> 'antagonistic' mean?" I then explained *that* to him.
JS> ... Believe It ... Or Not!
Oh, I believe it. Ever see a Never-Ending Story sub? Some of them
are all right; I remember one written by university students that
turned out quite good and interesting, as well as very funny. Then
I looked at the kiddie-run boards, and geez. Nothing but each
person "raping" the other (when they weren't busy beating
up/sexually molesting one very unpopular kiddie user that was
himself banned for stupidity on every kiddie TAG and Renegade board
in town - yes, he WAS that bad.)
And I've run into the ones who like to pretend they're smart, but
really aren't, and are easily shown to be as such. I had one kid
insist that Sydney was the capital of Australia - Canberra couldn't
be, since he'd never heard of it before. And of course, there's the
ones who insist on using rap-speak, and then get all offended when
no one understands what the hell they're saying, and call their
usage of "Me be " as baby-talk.
JS> One thing that I find a bit disturbing is the contrast between these
JS> teens' life experiences and educations, on the one hand, and the
JS> ready availability of fairly hard-core pornographic
JS> images/pics/gifs/jpgs that are on many of the boards. I am not for
JS> censorship, but it seems a bit bizarre for teens not to have sexual
JS> experience and yet have easy access to graphic images of oral sex
JS> (with ejaculate dripping off the woman's face and tongue), bondage
JS> scenes, orgy scenes, etc. We are *not* talking about "Playboy"-type
JS> images. Meanwhile, back in the real world, teen boy takes teen girl
JS> to see a movie like "The Long Kiss Goodnight," teen boy gets "carded"
JS> (asked for proof of age), he gets turned away for being underage (!),
JS> so the couple go to see some PG movie instead and spend the whole time
JS> making out and not watching the movie. Something just doesn't add up
JS> here.
Well, that's the way it is, and probably was how it always was.
They see all this, and of course go out and try it for themselves;
if society is so enamoured of it, well, hell, it can't be all that
bad, can it? If you see adults in images, TV, movies, or whatnot
doing nothing but think about getting some, and actually getting it,
then of COURSE the teenagers are going to follow suit. Sex is a
basic drive; people are going to be curious no matter how pervasive
it is in the media; the media just sort of gives it that extra
glamour that can make it seem even the more attractive.
It's mostly something that has to be dealt with, rather than doing
away with it altogether; neither making sex freely available nor
putting the guilt of the Moral Majority into their heads is going to
stop it. The only thing to do is try to teach the social skills
needed to recognise that, no, you don't need to have it with
everyone who heats your pants, no, you don't need to do it to be
popular, and no, not everyone who seems nice and kind really is, as
well as teaching what the consequences may be and helping to make
birth control options easier to get.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Public Service Ads [2/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:22:02
EID:a230 22226ac0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3768
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... My god _is_ real! I carved him myself!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/2021 167/166
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: False Christian Scum [2/2] [1/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:53:03
EID:5934 22226ea0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3769
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, J.J. Hitt cast False Christian Scum [2/2] [1/2]
at Sue Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> But what when companies saturate every market in the world?
SA> Well, then, their only choice is to encourage population
SA> (and thus market) growth. It isn't only religion that
SA> demands more and more people - it's also a demand of the
SA> capitalist system, for what they consider sound economic
SA> reasons. This can be learned in any half-decent business
SA> course.
JH> You sound just like the Unabomber (and I couldn't agree with you
JH> more).
Thanks, I think. :)
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Mary Poppins: First of the Q to visit earth.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1
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SEEN-BY: 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Paradox [1/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:57:04
EID:785b 22226f20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd376a
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast Paradox at Sue Armstrong .. and all
hell broke loose.
Sorry about taking so long getting back to you on this; with the
holidays and such, it's been difficult to sit down and reply
thoughtfully to all the mail I've been getting, and I didn't want to
skimp on this one, especially since this is one of the more pleasant
posts I've had to respond to in a while.
DL> You said some time ago that you wanted to know how Paradox
DL> works in Mage:The Ascention. Well I'm feeling alittle bored, so here
we
DL> go.
DL> Paradox comes about when a mage has performed magick that goes against
DL> consentual reality. Reality is defined by what the sleepers (the
DL> general population) as believable. The Technocracy has for the past
DL> thousand or so years molded the population of the world to more readily
DL> accept their paradigm. That science is the only thing that is able to
DL> alter reality. Anything else would go against reality, and therefore
DL> not be possiable. This is why mages always try to work their magick
as
DL> *coincidental* magick. That is, magic which would be believable by the
DL> general population.
Funny. This is basically the reason I've been using to explain the
Delerium.
The Delerium, of course, is what humans experience when they see a
Garou in Crinos - their reactions are basically based on their
Willpower (or, as I use it for incidental encounters, a roll from
1-10.) Reactions range from Catatonic Fear (the human curls up into
a ball, whimpers uncontrollably, and can't remember a thing
afterwards) to No Reaction/Blase - the person is likely Kinfolk and
has no reaction at all to seeing the "monster".
The canonical explanation is that it comes from a race memory of
sorts stemming back to the Impergium - the progrom Garou had against
humans, in order to forcibly keep their numbers down and keep them
from spreading their Weaver-stuff all over the place (lasted until
about 8,000 BC, or whenver it was that the first cities, like Ur,
were established. Certain tribes, like the Children of Gaia and
Stargazers, were instrumental in stopping it.) That's why it's based
on Willpower. (CoG, by the way, according to optional rules re:
Tribal Weaknesses, begin with an automatic 5 on the Delerium Chart -
Terror
because they didn't participate in the Impergium at all. No one can
supposedly score less than 5 around them, as you'd have to add +5 to
whatever their Willpower or Delerium roll is, so doing it that way,
folks would actually be starting at 6 - Conciliatory (person begs
for his life.))
However, I don't like the race memory idea; that's best left to the
Mokole (the werealligators, "Gaia's Memory".) Rather, I tend to
explain it to myself as a function of a person's upbringing - how
much of seeing something "outside the norm" can they handle? It's
still basically a function of Willpower, I suppose, but takes into
account individual personality and culture (therefore, I discard the
idea that anyone with Amerind hertiage is automatically immune to
the Delerium - if they've been raised in cities and went to science
class, then by golly, they are NOT going to be prepared to accept
seeing a 9 foot tall man-wolf raging down the street.) If someone's
some sort of crystal-weenie, a fundy who believes in daemons, or
someone who takes the Weekly World News as true and honest
reporting, they're going to be quite able to rank pretty high on the
Delerium Chart. A science PhD, of course, is going to rank pretty
darn low, and will most likely be reduced to a quivering mass of
jelly even if the Crinos just walks by calmly on his way to Trader
Vic's for a nice bowl of beef chow mein with his other peacenik CoG
or Stargazer buddies.
As an example, I had one character (Ghost, a metis Get of Fenris
Ahroun) track down a serial rapist in the Toronto subway system. I
didn't make any stats for the victim; all I did was pre-roll a D10
to see what her reaction would be should she see Ghost go to Crinos
in front of her (so I could say whether or not she curled into a
ball, ran away, attacked Ghost himself, or whatnot). She got an 8 -
Curiosity. So, while Ghost the Not-So-Friendly-Get was smacking
around the rapist (and the Bane that was hanging around him), she
simply ensconced herself behind a post in the deserted station and
watched EVERYTHING. And told CITY-TV News what she'd seen. She's
bound to become a bee in the Garou's bonnet before long.
Worse, at the last session, an Uktena businessman of sorts (who was
actually born to Black Spiral parents, but was rescued by a Gangrel)
let a BSD corporate facilitator get away from him - and she ran off
across Yonge St in a Fox frenzy. And what do you know .. there's a
reporter and a photographer from the Toronto Sun wandering down
their street on their way to cover some business news. (I didn't
bother rolling for them, because I thought it would be just the
story element to throw in. Heh. "Giant Wolverine Causes Havoc on
Yonge!")
Can you say "Rent Veil"? I knew you could.
DL> To draw an example. Samuel (my Celestial Chorus mage. The fundy) comes
DL> across a Nephandi spirit in the middle of downtown Calgary. Without
DL> thinking he decides to cast an "exorcism" against the spirit to banish
DL> it back to the Deep Umbra. Using Correspondence 3, Entropy 2, Spirit
4,
DL> and just for spice Prime 2, a shaft of blinding white light blasts from
DL> the palms of his hands. Screaming, to steal a line from J.R.R. Tolkin's
DL> Return of the King, "You can not enter here. Go back to the abyss
DL> prepared for you. Go back. Fall to the nothingness that awaits you and
DL> your master."
DL> This sort of thing is unacceptable to the normal understanding of the
DL> world. People cannot just blast...things with shafts of light issuing
DL> forth from their hands. That would make it vulger magic and Samual
DL> would automaticaly gain one point of paradox. More (much more) should
DL> he botch (throw more ones than successes) the spell.
Yeah, I can imagine that.
DL> Five: These flaws can drastically alter the mage. They can change a
DL> mages attributes dramatically for short periods fo time (adding or
DL> subtracting three dots of strength for a day) or alter them slightly
DL> but permently (one dot of strength gone forever). The mage may find
DL> himself blinded for a significant amount of time or may be unable to
DL> control his nervous system. Weard distortions fo the human anatomy
DL> can take place as wll as distortions of the world around him (such as
DL> inanimate objects tuning to glass when touched). At this level, the
DL> mage hass trouble even getting out of bed.
DL> This is just one example of some minor backlashes. More sevear ones
DL> can take to form of aggravated health level damage per point. The
DL> mage can be pulled into a paradox realm. Usualy a realm having to do
DL> with the hightest sphear which caused the backlash. In the above
DL> senario, if Samual were pulled into a paradox realm,the spirit of
DL> Samual would be pulled away and locked in an Umbral or Dream realm,
DL> with his body lying in a catatonic heap.
Yes, I can imagine worse. In fact, Sam Haight, the Garou
Skinner, is now an ashtray on some Artificer's desk. He was A) A
CoG kinfolk abused by his father who b) Killed a Tremere, ghouled
himself, and learned Thaumaturgy and then c) Learned a Wyrm rite
that basically let him become full Garou by skinning one Garou from
each Auspice - he thus became a "Skindancer" and later d) killed
some Mage, learned Spheres, and stole an artifact sword that allowed
him to use mage spheres without threat of Paradox and e) was finally
overwhelmed in a huge battle against Garou, Kindred, and
who-knows-who else in which his sword got broken and f) The Paradox
backlash was so mighty, having stored up so much of it over the
years that his body was destroyed and his soul turned into an
ashtray.
And the peasants rejoiced.
DL> You've also heard of paradox spirits that show up in a backlash. I
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Paradox [2/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:13:05
EID:3c5b 222291a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd376b
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...
DL> don't use these "reality police". They seem like too much of a cop
DL> out to me. Well no. I take that back. I've used them acouple of
DL> times. But only when the mage had entered Quite. Quite is where a
DL> mage created a world which only exists in his mind. He can take
DL> damage and interact with that world but when he comes out of Quite
DL> he'll probably find himself in an asylam.
And that's the beauty of the WoD system - you can rerationalise just
about anything you dislike.
You should see the Kitsune rewrite most of us are working with; the
version of these Japanese "werefoxes" in Caerns: Places of Power
isn't all that popular, and most of the STs I know have been bugging
an Asian Mythology expert for info on traditional Asian fox-spirits.
I myself prefer to use the legendary, rather than the WW, version of
Kitsune.
Ethan Skemp has begun having Bete (other shapeshifter) specfic books
written and released; the first one will be on the Bastet
(Werecats.) Apparently, all the Bete are being redone, so hopefully,
if and when they get around to the Kitsune, they'll do a better
job. Ethan's pretty much well aware of the opinions floating around
on the Caerns version (which he had nothing to do with) so perhaps
he'll completely redo the race.
DL> Anyway there it is. The long-short explination of Paradox.
DL> The next interesting question would be.... Why don't Werewolves and
DL> Vamp attract paradox. I have my own theory that we are using. But I
DL> wnat to hear yours. :>
I couldn't tell you about Kindred; don't really know much about how
they work to say from their POV, and frankly, the V:tM sourcebook
doesn't go into any detail about it; it's simply dated and doesn't
have the world background the later games have (it was the first -
what does one expect?) From a Garou's POV, Kindred get their powers
from the Wyrm. And Garou don't suffer backlash because their Gifts
are granted to them by Spirits, whereas Mages simply muck around
with magic on their own, without permission (and Kindred,
presumably, get theirs on loan from the Wyrm, though I'm sure they'd
disagree. Since the Wyrm is a _kind_ of Spirit, well ...) Your best
bet is to ask a V:tM ST as to what they think about their favourite
WoD denizens.
Wraiths are already pretty much spirits; I consider them along the
lines of Garou Ancestor Spirits. And Fae, well, they're inherently
magical creatures and don't have to worry in the first place. I
don't know if they count as Spirits, but I consider them along the
lines of the Garou, which are part physical and part Spirit in and
of themselves. Garou are simply more in touch with their physical
part than Arcadian Faeries are; but Changelings are probably in
about the same boat as Garou are, though still inherently more
Spiritual in nature. Mages are, well, human, and don't have the
inherent Spirit part that Fae, Changelings and Garou do, except
perhaps for when they die and become Wraiths and/or wind up in the
Dark Umbra. (I also have a whole theory as to why human
spirits wind up there, but animal spirits wind up in the Near Umbra
as well. Yes, I consider animal spirits (Naturae) as being, at
least some of them, the "ghosts" of dead critters. Some of the
Spirits in Axis Mundi simply represent concepts, and never HAD a
body to physically represent them. Death's Breath Spirits are a
good example of this, and one of my favourite entries in that
book, next to The Twice-Born. Unicorn Spirits, Pegasus Spirits, and
the like might also be considered Spirits that never had a body.
Unique Incarna are simply the idealisation of a concept or species,
such as Fenris or Falcon, and given immense Spiritual power.)
I base this on W:tA second edition rules, and the revision found in
Axis Mundi. In 1st Edition, Garou taught each other Gifts, but they
were originally granted by spirits. In the 2nd Edition BBO