God Damned Fundies!
|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: reading incomprehensi
|Date: 03 Jan 97 07:50:52
EID:5bef 22233e40
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cd0ebc
REPLY: 1:261/1137 21128ada
NC> You actually take this echo serious enough to use a spell
NC> checker!! You are are a sick puppy then aren't you!
CJ> You mean you don't take your cause seriously enough to make
CJ> it appear that it's supported by intellectually competent people?
What I mean is that I don't think this echo is supported by
any real "intellectually competent people" so what take it that
seriously?
Since I'm new here... let me show you what I mean...
Here's what I've seen so far//
Someone by the name of "Pooh" (Must not want us to know her real name) .
Who likes to see little babies in the mothers womb taken out by
force..(And here I thought Pooh was a child's charcter.
Someone by the name of "Dan" who only knows four letter words and
loves to cuss a lot... ((Boy this guy can REALLY be taken serious))
And let's not forget my "Favorite Martian"... This guy is supposed to
have a PHD and is "intelligent"!? ((He thinks most everyone is a "fundy"))
Nahh.. this isn't a serious echo... this is more like a adult version
of Looney Tunes......!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: cheese whiz
|Date: 03 Jan 97 07:58:40
EID:6b34 22233f40
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cd1090
REPLY: 1:261/1137 21128b51
Greetings!
NC>
NC> Maybe it's not God at all?? But mankind
NC> wasting what God has given
NC> us...
CJ> A very large fraction of the developing embryos are simply
CJ> washed out when they fail to implant, due to the timing of the
CJ> menses. In fact, part of the rhythm method is predicated on this.
CJ> Looks like your God, the greatest abortionist of them all,
CJ> designed it this way.
You assume it was intended that way. Without any thought to the
human condition, and what we have done to the air and water we
breath... I see no "evidence" that God designed it this way...
But I see lot's of evidence that man has messed it up that way.
That's why this type of logic is a cop out....
Don't worry Mr. Martian thinks the same way... and He's got a PHD!
So much for higher education........*Grin*
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 03 Jan 97 08:02:36
EID:56df 22234040
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cd117c
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cac466
Greetings!
GT> Not in evidenc. And better for whom? Seens to me that the only
GT> ones who really benefited were the self-appointed
GT> patriarchy and their holy-owned (spelling
GT> intentional) politicos, who had themselves a great
GT> tool for fattening their own purses and keeping the
GT> slaves under control.
"Benefited"!? You jest of course! Let's see the orginal founder
died on a Cross without a dime to His name, all His followers were
eventually killed, none every reaping any benefit. One of the Greatest of
His followers was a Ten maker so he could support himself without being
a burden to Christians at the time.
No, in fact man has done a better job of making slaves out of his
fellow man than anyone else...
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 03 Jan 97 08:07:14
EID:9908 222340e0
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cd1292
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32cab518
And thus Pooh Bear spoke........
GtP>> Ever watched a puppy avoid being hitten for
GtP>> a misdeed? Ever seen a
GtP>> fawn running away from a hunter? Ever seen
GtP>> a chick turn and defend
GtP>> itself. It is the habit of life to respond
GtP>> to external stimuli.
GtP> Everything organic is life or was. I don't think
GtP> a fetus has anymore rights than the burger you
GtP> last ate.
One{ time you say one thing... {than you turn around and say
something else, which is it? Does life "respond" to stimuli?
Or is life just a slab of meat? Does a cut out organ represent
all their is to " life" ?
Does the "fetus" have more to it, than just a slab of meat?
Will the organ ever be anything other than just a organ? Or will
that fetus become something more than it's current state?
GtP> Can you understand how a person who has been the victim of abuse, an
GtP> unwanted child whose first twelve years of life
GtP> were hell and didn't get her act together for
GtP> thirty years, could accept abortion? Can you
Kwel!!! Let me get this straight...
You think one act of "abuse" ok's another act of abuse on the un-born baby.
This must relate back to Mr MArtian's higher math? Right?
GtP> could advocate a quick ending before it could
GtP> really feel rather than letting a child suffer for
GtP> years and maybe still end up dead? Or worse, free
Abuse + Abuse = What's right?
Can you understand someone steeping in to stop the chain of abuse
so both may live?
GtP> years and maybe still end up dead? Or worse, free
GtP> to perpetuate the abuse on the next generation?
GtP> years and maybe still end up dead? Or worse, free
GtP> to perpetuate the abuse on the next generation?
Good Idea!! LEt's murder them all and take care of the problem that
way! Since we all know who will be the abusers in the next generation
WRONG!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Arthur Barnes
|To: All
|Sub:
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:48:00
EID:1235 22229600
MSGID: 1:106/7315.0 32ccf274
PID: BWTAG 3.11 [Reg]
You know, Christians really get to me sometimes. This morning, some preacher
guy was on and he decided that Christians needed to relook at what holiness
means. He was way off... I forgot where the word came from, but it originally
meant (well Holy did anyway) "other". It had nothing to do with morals
and
how good someone was. I laughed the whole time he talked!
... The cat seldom interferes with other people's rights.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Arthur Barnes
|To: Bill Forseth
|Sub: "flat earth" town
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:54:00
EID:276b 222296c0
MSGID: 1:106/7315.0 32ccf275
REPLY: 1:282/76.0 32cb17b9
PID: BWTAG 3.11 [Reg]
While riding the back of his gryphon, Tyladriel heard this: "flat earth"
town
BF> No, it's because of copulation. Population increases because the
BF> birth rate exceeds the death rate. It's a mathematical thing. Look:
NC> I think the laugh is on you, ....
NC> Is it the "mathematical thing" that does the "copulation" or is
NC> the human race!!?
NC> So.. although your math is correct.... It's still mankind that
NC> has caused the problem, ins't it...
BF> Please learn how to read before responding to anything I write.
BF> You're obviously the product of a very shakey educational system, and
BF> the only hope you have is to re-educate yourself.
BF> And telling people not to copulate is like telling dogs not to shit.
BF> It's gonna happen, whether you approve or not.
Todays education system does suck. I failed algebra 1 twice! Not because
I'm stupid, I excel in all my other subjects. The first time, I had a
really incompetent teacher who ended up being fired at the semester. Everyone
in that class failed at least once. EVERYONE. When they got a new teacher,
I passed. The second time was during summerschool. I had a decent teacher,
but they taught us out of the same book (stupid Saxon book). The reason
I
failed that time was because they tested us with the Texas State Credit
By
Exam test. There were things on that test that weren't in the book. I
still
need a half of a credit for that stupid class. I decided the school can
go screw itself because I'm going to get my credit by correspondance during
the
summer. They really need to get their acts together. Oh, another thing
they
did. At the beginning of the year, we got our scheduals. I got all the
honors classes I wanted. The funny thing is they had me in the advisory
for
mentaly challenged kids! I talked to the teacher and she let me go to my
French teacher's advisory. The teacher went and had my schedual changed
because
the administration screwed it up the first time. Can you believe that?
I
put up with crap like that just about everyday.
... I'm busier than a one-eyed cat watching two mouse holes.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Arthur Barnes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: 2 Goatians 9:13
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:30:00
EID:2c98 22229bc0
MSGID: 1:106/7315.0 32ccf276
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32ca6e41
PID: BWTAG 3.11 [Reg]
While riding the back of his gryphon, Tyladriel heard this: Re: 2 Goatians
9:13
QF> While puffing on a 'Fropstick, I felt David utter:
DR> Rais, Gilles de: on charges of witchcraft, executed 26 October, 1440
QF> I found a web page devoted to serial killers (It also had a section
on
QF> killer cults which was kinda interesting), and I found a reference to
QF> this guy. According to what I read about him, I would have killed him,
QF> too.
AS> I made an objection about that once. Some got all huffy and refused
AS> to play (I think that was around the time that Katherine and Richard
AS> twitted me, for being so mean as to say something uncomplimentary
AS> about someone supposedly killed for being a nonChristian). They never
AS> DID explain, if he was railroaded, as they claimed, about the fifty
AS> bodies of children found under the castle.
AS> I don't see why...if there can be Christian SOBs, like
AS> Torquemada...why there can't be occult or pagan or semipagan SOBs,
AS> like de Raise.
I think the reason behind this is that Christianity is an organized religion
whereas paganism is chaotic. Everyone follows his or her own path. In
most cases people don't represent a group. If they do, it's a small group
not
all of paganism. There is no spokesperson(sp?) for paganism as there is
for
let's say... Catholocism(sp?) ie the pope. The point is, you can't label
someone like de Raise a "pagan" SOB as you would a "Christian" SOB because
he isn't representing paganism as a whole. You can't represent paganism
as a
whole because of its great diversity. I'm a pagan. I could very well,
and
probably would, disagree with his views. You can, however, simply label
him
as an SOB if you like.
... "Can you hammer a six inch spike through a board with your penis?"
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: FALSE CHRISTIAN SCUM
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:33:52
EID:9994 22230c20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 1 Jan 97 09:51am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to BECKE BOYER:
AS>> Only part of her messages went out. The ones that she answered online
AS>> on one BBS to you and Mimi. Another packet that she uploaded (which
AS>> had her version of things) did not go out. That's why Mimi was
AS>> concerned, not seeing Becke's version of things that she promised.
AS>> (Don't you LOOOVE Fidonet.) Nevertheless, she seems pretty happy in
AS>> her marriage, as does her husband (both of whom come on #irc).
AS>> Becke's had a tough life, and I'm glad for any happiness she can get.
AS>> And probably it's best that both she and Sean realized it wouldn't
AS>> work out before it progressed further than it did. I just question
AS>> the wisdom of mentioning it here on Fidonet, but some would say _I_
AS>> should talk....
BB>> Al, thank you...you, at least, were right on the money with you
BB>> comments...
AS> Thank YOU for being one of the most delightful people I have ever
AS> "met" by modem. And Happy New Year. I thought Styx's comments were
AS> quite appropriate, also.
Thanks for the compliment, Al. And a Happy New Year to you as well...
Becke
... WORK HARDER!... Millions on welfare depend on YOU!!!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 46
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
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|From: Jason Harmon
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: More grist from the web
|Date: 03 Jan 97 13:44:00
EID:9e95 22236d80
MSGID: 1:3652/1 32CD68CA
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Dan Ceppa <=-
AS> An excellent point! But then, if one chooses not to live a morally
AS> upright life, and not to ask for God's forgiveness, what would you
do
AS> with them?
DC> Your religion consigns them to hell. Makes me want to join, not.
AS> My religion will save them with a word, a simple asking for
AS> forgiveness. It has made millions want to join, yes.
You have made millions join by scaring them with hell? Nice religion.
... "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." -- Heinlein
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
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|From: Ric Carter
|To: CARL POLLOCK
|Sub: 12 Days of Abduction
|Date: 01 Jan 97 15:19:00
EID:84cc 22217a60
CP> If you didn't notice, this is a RELIGIOUS DEBATE echo. Why on earth
CP> would a message like the twelve days of abduction go here?
Abductionism is a religion too. 12 days of *anything* is a religious
satire. And everybody wants to be a moderator now. Yow.
... Opposites attract. Example: LONG hair and SHORT skirt!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- Synchronet+SBBSecho v1.10
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Off topic??
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:39:01
EID:41c1 22237ce0
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
PID: BWPCB2 4.01 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:261/1137.0 32cd282e
Damien Wellman said "OFF TOPIC??" to Don Martin,
adding:
DW> ::From: Don Martin To: Gwenny The Pooh Subject: Off topic??::
DM> Ah, the sweet fascism of Heinlein. All we need is someone who
DM> _really_ understands us to lead the way. How can you stand his
DM> cookie-cutter female characters? Hair color is the only way you can
DM> tell 'em apart.
DW> Don, this seems to be the most popular Heinlein criticism around, yet
DW> it is the most untrue. Kindly look up the definition of "fascism" in
Totaly wrong, but most widely shared? Same thing as
diety belief, then?
DW> the library, as well as researching the history of it. Then, read a
DW> good representive sample of Heinlein. If, in all of 40-something
DW> books, you can produce even ONE shred of evidence that Heinlein - or
DW> any of his protagonists - is a fascist, I'll eat my copy of SIASL.
Certainly the notion that the right leader can solve all
of our problems is the basis of fascism: certainly granting
total power to the state is much easier when the state is
embodied by such a being. Since the divine right of kings
has passed from the scene, populist leadership is as close
as we come, and it is often to be found in the sentimental
reaction to the charisma of that leader. As the Germans said
about Adolf: Als er sprach, er sprach aus unsere Herzen
(when he spoke, he spoke from our hearts), the feeling
connection between the Great Man and his followers is
essential. It was this sort of thing that I personally most
distrusted in Presidents Kennedy and Reagan: both had a
mindless appeal to the sentiments of the mob. I will stand
by what I said about the central character of this book,
whose great appeal resonates with "wouldn't it be wonderful
if someone like HIM were in charge?" The parallel with Jesus
shows the same tendancies: charismatics who cannot become
presidents may, if they are not careful, end up as gods.
DW> Similarly, if, by "cookie-cutter female characters", you mean that
DW> the various females in Heinlein are unbelievable, I must also
DW> disagree. This hypothesis can be easily tested as well: First,
DW> disbelieve all of Heinlein's female characters, and maintain that all
DW> people who believe that they are realistic are gullible.
Now _that_ is about as peculiar an invitation as I have
ever had. How _does_ one go about disbelieving all of
Heinlein's female characters? Sounds like a fundy view of
what atheists do: they suppose that we _work_ at generating
an active disbelief in some deity, rather than simply
experiencing an utter lack of belief in the unevidenced.
Having accomplished such a mental gymnastic, what then would
be the point in concerning oneself about others--the
believers--one way or another, except as a fundy might do?
What I said about the women is that they are hard to
tell apart. I expect that a more doable test might be to
have a sample of their various comments with the identifiers
removed and see whether a Heinlein fan could say with any
accuracy "These are the words of Floppsy, those are from
Moppsy, and the other one is certainly the opinion of
Cottontail." I find the women depicted in Playboy pretty
much the same way--apart from hair color (in various
places), they are all realized through the same gauze focus.
To meet them face to face would be meeting persons: meeting
them only in the version that has passed though the
"creative process" of photographer, editor, and airbrusher
is to encounter so many Barbie Dolls.
Perhaps Heinlein's problem in this book is that the
function the women fill is that of ardent followers. This
leaves little scope for individuality.
Hate to sound like a fundy, but one possibility for this
criticism being so widespread _might_ be that there is
something to it.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mbbs.com)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: MetroNet - Columbia, Maryland (1:261/1137)
--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Carl Pollock
|To: GWENNY THE POOH
|Sub: Re: Pray Contest
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:38:55
EID:8325 222374c0
<<=QUOTING Gwenny The Pooh @1:128/20 TO Carl Pollock=>>
RS@>> Which God would that be?
CP> The God which BILLIONS around the world love and trust.
GTP@> Ah. . .Buddha. I don't Christians have even made it to the billion
GTP@> mark yet.
Funny! I was sure they had! Oh well. I'm sure they will soon.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- VFIDO 7.12
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|From: Carl Pollock
|To: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ
|Sub: Re: Pray Contest
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:38:56
EID:f77c 222374c0
<<=QUOTING Lynda Bustilloz @1:109/60 TO Carl Pollock=>>
CP> All right, so if you that you will recive it, and the
CP> athiests don't belive it, then they will accuse the thiests of lying!
CP> However, what we could do is the thiests pray for the athiests to get
CP> something, so that the athiests can't say that the thiests were lying!
LB@> Hey! There ya go! Pray just to cover your ass! Good idea! It's ok,
God
LB@> will NEVER figure it out that that's your sole motive...good deal!
And just what exactly is THAT supposed to mean?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- VFIDO 7.12
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|From: Satan
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: ASK AND YE SHAN'T REC
|Date: 02 Jan 97 14:05:47
EID:e4af 222270a0
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 5e9257b3
REPLY: 1:123/67 32c907f7
Wasn't it 31 Dec 96 when "Shelby Sherman" wrote to "Jim Staal"?
So, Shelby... you said...
SS> Satan doesn't exist either, Moron.
JS> Your opinion.
SS> It's not an opinion, it is the default state. Do you have any
SS> evidence that the god Satan exists?
JS> Is it necessary to be abusive just because we hold different
JS> opinions? I am no moron.
SS> Since opinions count, it is my opinion that you are a moron.
Clearly, it is you who are the moron...
From the quill of Satan...
... Decaffinated coffee? What the hell's the POINT!?
--- PPoint 2.02
* Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
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|From: Satan
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: WiCCA
|Date: 02 Jan 97 14:04:04
EID:559f 22227080
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 6c786d43
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73038b4f
Wasn't it 01 Jan 97 when "J.J. Hitt" wrote to "Chris Brown"?
So, J.J.... you said...
JH> On Dec 28 22:39 96, Chris Brown of 1:163/125 wrote:
CB> This has to be a joke.. Satan and Wicca have nothing to do
CB> with each other..
JH> Other than a complete lack of evidence to support their claims
JH> about the supernatural.
Like you have evidence to support YOUR claims...
From the quill of Satan...
... A man with a gun is safer than a man with a bible and a gun.
--- PPoint 2.02
* Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Brian Shreve
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 03 Jan 97 06:33:00
EID:baf5 22233420
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ d4cbcb3c
NC> "He was the Christ" but they do give credance that Jesus did
NC> actually exist.
SS> I'll bet you can't name one.
BS> I'll see your bet, and raise you five thousand.
Mr. Shreve, the remark was addressed to Mr. Cookson, a person who
has demonstrated in the past that, while his grasp of certainty is
total, his grasp of detail is less perfect.
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Welcome to the state of T
|Date: 03 Jan 97 08:31:00
EID:9219 222343e0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ fd8d1f78
MM> As I have told you earlier, I am one of those who seem to have
MM> been born without any religious urge, and I do not dread to
MM> become 'nothing' at death.
And I am another. Perhaps it's a function of our age? The 30s and
40s were not conducive to the creation of faith in the young (in
the absence of outside pressure).
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: The Alignment List
|Date: 03 Jan 97 11:00:00
EID:24dd 22235800
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 64833aa7
KW> WHO'S WHO: THE ALIGNMENT LIST:
JH> I'm not listed.
JH> Does this mean I'm out of alignment?
Good grief, who would dare suggest that you were ever aligned? Not
I, I assure you.
... "Maytag" is my middle name; I'm an agitator.
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Flexible Dating.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:31:10
EID:59f1 22244be0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88912f95
Hi Rick,
(Re: yours of 25-Dec-1996, "Flexible Dating.")
RM> Please, look up something on isochron methods, Laurie.
RM> There are NO assumptions involved. Until you learn
RM> something about modern technology, you are just spitting
RM> into the wind.
You betray your own ignorance so clearly, and display a
gullibility that indicates more of a FAITH position than a
scientific one. As I pointed out before;
"One serious consequence of the mantle isochron model
is that crystallization ages determined on basis igneous
rocks by the Rb-Sr whole technique can be greater than the
true age by many hundreds of millions of years. This
problem of inherited age is more serious for younger rocks,
and there are well-documented instances of conflicts
between stratigraphic age and Rb-Sr age in the literature."
(Dr C.Brooks (Professor of Geology, University of Montreal,
Quebec, Canada), Dr D.E.James (Staff Member in geophysics
and geochemistry, Carnegie Institution of Washington,
Washington D.C.,USA) and Dr S.R.Hart (Professor of
Geochemistry, Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences,
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, USA),
"Ancient lithosphere: its role in young continental
volcanism". Science, vol.193, 17 September 1976, p.1093.)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38036821 V34 +Node 1 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Outside of Science!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:31:46
EID:c4ab 22244be0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88912fdc
Hi Rick,
(Re: yours of 25-Dec-1996, "Outside of Science.")
LA> There is every possibility that there we no REAL "dates"
LA> at all, but a mass of invalid assumptions meaningless
LA> hypotheses, bolstered up with a totally unscientific
LA> "flexibility" that puts the whole shonky business right
LA> "outside of science" anyway.
RM> Learn something about isochron methods, Laurie. Then
RM> get back to me with your criticism about what "assumptions"
RM> are involved.
Again, it seems that you know very little about any of it.
However the following might help.
"In the conclusion to a recent paper exposing shortcomings
and criticising the validity of the popular
rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr) isochron method, Zheng wrote:"
". . . some of the basic assumptions of the
conventional Rb-Sr isochron method have to be modified
and an observed isochron does not certainly define a
valid age information for a geologicalsystem, even if a
goodness of fit of the experimental data points is
obtained in plotting 87Sr/86Sr vs. 87Rb/86Sr."
"This problem cannot be overlooked, especially in
evaluating the numerical time scale. Similar questions
can also arise in applying Sm-Nd and U-Pb isochron
methods." (1)
"Amongst the concerns voiced by Zheng were the problems
being found with anomolous isochrons, that is, where there is
an apparent linear relationship between 87Sr/86Sr and
87Rb/86Sr rations, even an excellent line of best fit
between ratios obtained from good cogenetic samples, and yet
the resultant isochron and derived 'age' have no distinct
geological meaning."
"Zheng documented the copious reporting of this problem
in literature where various names had been given to the
anomolous isochrons, such as apparent isochron, mantle
isochron and pseudoisochron, erupted isochron, mixing line,
and mixing isochron."
"Similar anomolous or false isochrons are commonly
obtained from U-Th-Pb data, which is hardly surprising given
the common open system behaviour of the U-Th-Pb system. Yet
in the literature these problems are commonly glossed over
or pushed aside, but their increasing occurrence from a
variety of geological settings does seriously raise the
question as to whether U-Th-Pb data ever yield any valid
'age' information."
(Creation Technical Journal, "The Failure of U-Th-Pb
'Dating' at Koongarra, Australia," Dr. Andrew A. Snelling,
Vol 9(1), 1995, p. 72) (1) Zheng Y.-F., 1989, Chemical
Geology, 80:1-16(p. 14)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBs Bris Aus +61-7-38036821 V34 +Node 1 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Special Pleading.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:32:20
EID:f2f3 22244c00
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8891302b
Hi Rick,
(Re: yours of 25-Dec-1996, "Special Pleading.")
RM> Perfectly logical. No "wiggling" there at all.
LA> Oh yes, never let the facts bother you when you can made
LA> up a an unproved and speculative "MUST HAVE" answer! Great
LA> science indeed!
RM> Can you explain the whole rock isochrons in ANY other way?
See message prior to this one and there is plenty more.
LA> Yes I understand your problem here. An honest scientist
LA> would not cheat like that since that is quackery and
LA> deception. It is as you seem to do, "First minimizing the
LA> problems, then sweeping them under the carpet and then
LA> trying to forget them." With evolutionists that is done all
LA> the time it seems and that is why it is NOT real science at
LA> all!
RM> What the hell are you talking about? You think it's
RM> good science to use results that have been demonstrated to
RM> be WRONG? Please answer that question with a direct Yes or
RM> NO, so we can all tell exactly what your "science" looks
RM> like.
Rick, nothing to do with evolution is "good science" at
any time. Nothing ever "demonstrated" evolution and its
subsiduary claims to be wrong! Don't you know that evolution
is supposed to be a FACT - "Like apples falling from trees"!
You get "explanations" from what you or I might call
"wrong" - often they are just ad hoc guesses or secondary
excuses assumptions etc.!
RM> The failure to obtain a straight line plot in an
RM> isochron age determination is an independent confirmation
RM> that the system was open. Don't you understand that YET?
Here again is the quote that I left in the last message.
It might be worth your while to read it again at this point;
"In the conclusion to a recent paper exposing shortcomings
and criticising the validity of the popular
rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr) isochron method, Zheng wrote:"
". . . some of the basic assumptions of the
conventional Rb-Sr isochron method have to be modified
and an observed isochron does not certainly define a
valid age information for a geological system, even if a
goodness of fit of the experimental data points is
obtained in plotting 87Sr/86Sr vs. 87Rb/86Sr."
"This problem cannot be overlooked, especially in
evaluating the numerical time scale. Similar questions
can also arise in applying Sm-Nd and U-Pb isochron
methods." (1)
"Amongst the concerns voiced by Zheng were the problems
being found with anomolous isochrons, that is, where there is
an apparent linear relationship between 87Sr/86Sr and
87Rb/86Sr rations, even an excellent line of best fit
between ratios obtained from good cogenetic samples, and yet
the resultant isochron and derived 'age' have no distinct
geological meaning."
"Zheng documented the copious reporting of this problem
in literature where various names had been given to the
anomolous isochrons, such as apparent isochron, mantle
isochron and pseudoisochron, erupted isochron, mixing line,
and mixing isochron."
"Similar anomolous or false isochrons are commonly
obtained from U-Th-Pb data, which is hardly surprising given
the common open system behaviour of the U-Th-Pb system. Yet
in the literature these problems are commonly glossed over
or pushed aside, but their increasing occurrence from a
variety of geological settings does seriously raise the
question as to whether U-Th-Pb data ever yield any valid
'age' information."
(Creation Technical Journal, "The Failure of U-Th-Pb
'Dating' at Koongarra, Australia," Dr. Andrew A. Snelling,
Vol 9(1), 1995, p. 72) (1) Zheng Y.-F., 1989, Chemical
Geology, 80:1-16(p. 14)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Darrow Nonsense (b).
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:32:58
EID:c589 22244c00
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88913074
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 26-Dec-1996, "Darrow Nonsense (b).")
LA> Darrow argue strongly for BALANCED TREATMENT or was he
LA> arguing for evolution ONLY to be taught?
DC> He was arguing for the one thing you can't provide:
DC> Testible evidence that evolution exists as compared with
DC> dogmatic scripture.
What a shame for Darrow that NO TEST ever made for
evolution has ever confirmed it! It has FAILED every test
that they have so far thought up! Evolutionists themselves
admit this as the following shows;
"Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described,
one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations.
Every conceivable observation can be fitted into it. It is
thus "outside of empirical science" but not necessarily
false."
"No one can think of ways in which to test it. Ideas,
either without basis or based on a few laboratory
experiments carried out in extremely simplified systems,
have attained currency far beyond their validity. They have
become part of an evolutionary dogma accepted by most of us
as part of our training."
(Paul Ehrlich (Professor of Biology, Stanford University)
and L.Charles Birch (Professor of Biology, University of
Sydney), "Evolutionary history and population biology".
Nature, vol.214, 22 April 1967, p.352.)
So evolution is OUTSIDE OF SCIENCE or in other words
"NON-SCIENCE". So you can "BELIEVE" anything you like but
evolution is NOT science!
Now just as an aside;
Did you know that scientists have concluded that the MOON
is moving away from the Earth at the rate of about 4
centimeters per year and that 3,500 million years ago it was
only ONE-SIXTH its present distance from the earth? What
sort of TIDES do you expect the Earth would have experienced
at that time? What effect would such tides have on erosion
and mountains?
What sort of tides might the earth have experienced at
the time of the alleged Cambrian explosion of life
supposedly 600 million years ago? How close do you imagine
that the moon could be to the earth before all life was
impossible?
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: Quentin Fai
|Sub: Re: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:33:11
EID:3de8 22239420
MSGID: 1:106/113 73234da4
QF> ... Pro-life? Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE.
Concider this one STOLEN! Ah loves it!
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: All
|Sub: xtian snobbishery
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:34:22
EID:8d5e 22239440
MSGID: 1:106/113 7323c059
if you are gay, i could care less, but
REPENT you evil one, or ye shall endeth up in Hades!
if you are pro-choice, i also couldn't give a rats bass, however
YOU aint no christian!
AND! You sanction the murder of the unborn.
if your race is anything but caucasion,
your non lily white butt is the slime of life!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Nope, I do not believe nor endorse what I said above, but I
tell ya, every time I come in here, or in some of the other msg
bases, it's all I see folks saying, or the ones that aren't
practicing such xtian snobbishery are vainly and valiantly
arguing with the morons that actually do believe what they're
saying is of God. (uh, that is, if such a god even exists, and I
do suspect strongly in the existance of such deity)
Now, I just have two questions . . .
1- What do you think of an Episcopal church ordering 16 cases of
wine from a distributor and having it delivered to the churches
cafeteria area?
2- What is your opinion for the trend of some of the major churches
turning to accepting into their membership roles, the gay community?
Two honest comments regarding my opinion of each of the questions:
1) I was religiously abused during my youth which affects my thinking
of the church; I have some really warped ideas of what a church ought
to be, to do, and signify. I was dumbfounded that such a purchase had
been made. For some reason, not exactly sure of the mechanisms there,
but I felt betrayed and angry.
2) I've always felt that being gay is not a choice a person has. Being
gay is in the genes, no more, no less. The church allows diabetics
and morphadites and people born without an arm or something to be
members in good standing.
Final comment:
I truly dislike fear mongerers, hate mongerers, shame mongerers of
this world, such as the likes of Nate Cookson and those like him,
calling themselves christians, speaking for god. Don't know about
you and your god, but my God can speak for himself very well.
However, it is that small portion of so called christians (self
proclaimed) that make me almost ashamed to call myself a christian.
While I may be wrong, I doubt that I'll see these shame mongerers
in the Heavens, if indeed there is a heaven. I believe God exists,
I believe as prophesied that Jesus is the son of God, and came to
die for our sins...BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE to believe, I feel best
believing and hoping that this is true, it gives me some comfort.
But I will never say this is TRUE, cause I simply do not KNOW, I
merely believe.
g'day to you, heathens, beasts, and good people of this msg base!
Brian
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Why do you NEED
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:44:38
EID:843a 22230d80
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c0e
REPLY: 1:3603/210 14a69d1f
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to ROBERT CURRY, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 31
Dec 96 16:12:00:
SH>> Because you ask questions like a Gestapo interrogator...
RC> Hardly. She made a perfectly reasonable inquiry. It's silly for
RC> you to demand that she answer your question about "sponge cats"
RC> (whatever those might be) before you explain what you mean by
RC> the phrase.
SH> Gestapo interrogators usually have reasons for the questions
SH> they ask too.
RC>
RC> So what was the reason for your silly question about "sponge cats?"
RC> Enough Nazi-nonsense from South Africa, already. You asked her a
RC> question about "sponge cats" and she inquired to ask what you meant
RC> by that weird phrase. If you have no answer, just say so.
Answer the question, bozo.
... Those darn Unitarians burned a question mark on my lawn!
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Why do you NEED
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:46:13
EID:f03a 22230dc0
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c0f
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32ca2f61
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Gwenny the Pooh, who wrote to Steve Hayes on
01 Jan 97 04:32:48:
SH>> Because you ask questions like a Gestapo interrogator...
RC>>
RC>> Hardly. She made a perfectly reasonable inquiry. It's silly for
RC>> you to demand that she answer your question about "sponge cats"
RC>> (whatever those might be) before you explain what you mean by
RC>> the phrase. So just what are sponge cats? Hmmm?
SH> Gestapo interrogators usually have reasons for the questions they ask
too.
GtP> Answer the question, what are sponge cats?
Answer the question....
... I saw George Hatchew sitting next to Elvis and Bigfoot in the UFO
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:47:28
EID:5121 22230de0
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c10
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32ca2f76
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Gwenny the Pooh, who wrote to Steve Hayes on
01 Jan 97 04:33:20:
SH> Whether I like the answer or not is irrelevant.
GtP> Just as you are.
... Gwenny the Pooh's mindless ad hominems continue
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Why do you NEED
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:48:46
EID:a0cc 22230e00
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c11
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 ed2ffd6f
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Dan Ceppa, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 31 Dec
96 14:38:02:
SH> Gestapo interrogators usually have reasons for the questions they ask
SH> too.
DC> Please show where torture is being applied to you to answer
DC> the fucking question.
What question was that?
I don't remember being asked such a question?
... Dan Ceppa's obfuscatory ramblings continue to mystify me
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:50:01
EID:4d1e 22230e40
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c12
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 6d633e48
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Dan Ceppa, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 31 Dec
96 14:38:22:
DC> Go clean youself up and make yourself reasonably clean the
DC> next time you try to throw your snot all over everyone.
... Dan Ceppa's mindless ad hominems continue
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:51:03
EID:e5cf 22230e60
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c13
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cac5af
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Glen Todd, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 01 Jan
97 15:14:02:
SH> Whether I like the answer or not is irrelevant.
GT> Precisely.
At last!
Someone who understands!
... How could you nurd me with your cordwangle so?
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 03 Jan 97 01:52:21
EID:5935 22230e80
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32ce2c14
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32ca6e47
PID: BWRA 3.11 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Al Schroeder, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 31
Dec 96 21:23:43:
SH> So from a Christian point of view, the question is not why anyone
SH> needs to be saved, but why anyone needs to stay in the concentration
SH> camp.
AS> Well said. Another C.S. Lewis fan, I see.
AS> Of course, be prepared. They're going to ask you why the
AS> concentration camp was allowed to be built at all.
Well, perhaps, though I haven't seen that much intelligence at all yet -
just salivating reactions, even when the bell hasn't rung. And if anyone
of these "interlocutors" (if one can call them that) has shown any sign
of getting beyond the salivation stage, they seem to demonstrate the kind
of authoritarianism that seems to be characteristic of gaurds in concentration
camps.
The answer, as far as I am concerned, is that to prevent the building of
concentration camps, one would have to build a concentration camp to house
all the potential builders of concentration camps.
... If you're not part of the solution, you must be precipitate
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:49:00
EID:ae9f 22215620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf6fd
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Jim Staal cast False Christian Scum at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
SA> Good for you; you're trying something you want to do, and feel
SA> yourself good at.
JS> Thank you, and, I will admit it is not necessarily for everyone, but
JS> slowly but surely I am building a 'fan base'.
Hey, good stuff. Good luck at it.
JS> 'scuse my ignorance, but what is it that you do?
SA> A comic strip. I've bound several dozens of them into book form for
SA> sale.
JS> No kidding!? Would you consider scanning one to a .gif or .jpg for
JS> DCC in chat sometime? I would very much like to see your work.
Well, OK. I do have a file sitting around that I can send the next
time I see you around. Else you can take a peek and grab the sample
at Al's web site:
http://www.nashville.com/~al.schroeder/do.html
I'm not specifically using the shareware concept any more; I don't
know if Al's changed this, as my Netscape keeps crashing, and I
don't get to see much of anything on the web. It's now merely a
"sneak peek"; those who like the first samples can choose whether or
not they want to order the book.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... "Rising with the full moon, to go howling through the night" -- Rush
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: fundy clown
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:53:01
EID:3425 222156a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf6fe
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Jim Staal cast fundy clown at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.
SA> I'd watch that tactic, Jim. Sean's picked up on it - ie, saying
SA> something vitriolic, and shrugging it off as a joke - and uses it as
SA> well.
SA> And Marty at least doesn't sit around and blame others for
SA> everything that doesn't go exactly his way.
JS> I would hope he wouldn't. The guy has dough. That _makes_ things go
JS> his way.
The golden rule - he who has the gold, makes the rules. :)
SA> Mm. The next time you go, I'll direct you to actual NICE places to
SA> eat. :)
JS> Great. We can compare yours to the ones I have already experienced.
JS> (in ten years, I have visited a few)
Mm. Have you ever been to the Real Jerk out near the Beaches area?
(Funny name, but excellent Jamaican restaurant. You have to go
early, though, because you won't be getting seating after about 7,
unless they've expanded or moved.)
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... "Vote OUI - Or the rest of Canada will laugh" - Seperatist slogan
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Political Party
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:55:02
EID:2195 222156e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf6ff
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast Political Party at Sue Armstrong ..
and all hell broke loose.
SA> Representation is chosen directly from neighbourhoods, factories and
SA> other places of work, schools, etc; the idea is the elimination of
SA> the concept of the political party, period. There is no need for a
SA> party, and in fact, parties are known to grossly go against the
SA> wishes of the people. This is what the party I am allied with works
SA> for, NOT centralised production by either the state or a few
SA> individuals.
DL> Well, by the above criteria, said party wouldn't be the PC, Lib,
DL> or even the PQ.
Right.
DL> The only thing that comes close (at least the impretion they want to
DL> give) would be the Reform Party. Tho' I would take it that this isn't
DL> the party you are refering to?
Hell, no. Reform is full of fundy nutters; I wouldn't trust them
with governing a hog byre, never mind the country.
DL> So, if it's not to personal, which party is it.
CPC(M-L).
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... A new game-Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego's luggage?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: True story. [1/2]
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:56:03
EID:477a 22215700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf700
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Making a good die roll, Marty Leipzig cast True story. at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
ML> Do you accept rubles?
SA> Sure! I'll accept Isle of Yap coinage, too, but I don't think my
SA> mail carrier would like that much.
ML> OK, I'll carve them out of pumice, that way they'll still be
ML> bulky, but not so heavy.
Woo hoo! Don't know where I'll keep them - I could keep them out in the
hallway (who'd steal 'em?) but it's only a very NARROW hallway ..
SA> If anything, the possession of weird kinds of currency would simply
SA> be something interesting to have, whether or not I could cash it.
ML> As I mentioned earlier, I need your address again. I'll include
ML> some rubles just for grins.
Heheh. OK, sounds fun.
S. Armstrong
570 Church St. #8 (yes, seriously.)
Windsor, Ontario
N9A 4S9
Give it a month, max, to get there; if you don't get it by that
time, give me a call: (519)-253-9123. I sent out a package to Doug
Lee, but I'm not sure if he got it yet.
SA> But, oh my, that's not very businesslike of me is it? Oh, well, who
SA> cares? I find some of what I'm learning in business class rather
SA> repulsive, anyway.
ML> It goes with the territory.
I suppose it does.
SA> Y'know, my classmates thought I was weird when I told them about the
SA> check a fellow HolySmoker sent - it was way too much for the one
SA> copy requested, and I explained I couldn't ethically keep the
SA> excess. I've mailed two copies, and remitted a cheque for the
SA> excess beyond that cost .. they were rather mystified as to why I
SA> did it, or agonised over several choices I had (the one I went with,
SA> or sending the cheque back, or sending one copy and remitting the
SA> extra $12.) They just couldn't grok my dilemma.
ML> They're fundies, right?
Actually, no. One is, but I don't think the others are.
SA> I also note that there is no unit under the heading of "business
SA> ethics" on the class schedule. If business people aren't expected
SA> to have ethics, well, I'd rather not consider myself a business
SA> person.
ML> "Business ethics" is a book that about as thick as "Great fundy
ML> scientists".
And probably about as real. :)
SA> I think instructing him to go to the library was probably
SA> blasphemous enough to him.
ML> "You jerk! You kneebiter! GO TO......THE LIBRARY!"
SA> "Oh, noooo! Not THAT!"
ML> "And then...we'll actually make you read!"
SA>
SA> "Aiiiigh!" :)
ML> "...books with no pictures..."
ML> "ARRGHHHH!"
Oh, the horror ..
ML> Unfortunately, they are too ignorant to understand even visual
ML> cues.
SA> Illiteracy comes in many forms, I suppose.
ML> Amazing that they can respire unaided.
Heh. Perhaps they have computerised implants which aid in this -
isn't modern technology wonderful?
SA> Big assumption.
SA> Perhaps the image of a great huge monster ripping into a
SA> bible-thumper would be more to the point?
ML> Now there's a thought. The Queen Alien and a fundie standing in
ML> for Bishop, the bisected android...
SA> Hmm. Though you might need something a little more blatant than
SA> that ..
ML> Sheesh, what? An air-strike?
ML> How's that for subtlety?
Perfect! :)
Although some people are just hopelessly stupid. I was kept awake a
few nights ago by some woman knocking on doors beginning at 3 am,
and wouldn't let up until 11. I warned her that if she kept it up,
I was going to call the cops; I'm not in a good mood at that time of
the morning. And so I did, but they just gave her a good
talking-to, and she was at it again a half-hour later. Her problem
seemed to be that some guy across the hall had her keys and coat,
and she wanted them NOW.
Normally, I'd sympathise; but I find people who knock loudly at the
wee hours of the morning completely inconsiderate. After the cops
left, and she started knocking again, she knocked on MY door, asking
to use the phone. I informed her that there was a pay phone next
door at the 7-11. "So?" she says. I told her to go away several
times, and she kept insisting I allow her to use my phone (we were
shouting from opposite sides of my door) because she "didn't know
the number". I told her that 411 was a free call. "So?" the reply
comes again, "I want to use your phone!" After this, I lost my
temper, yelling at the top of my voice, "GO AWAY! YOU'VE KEPT ME UP
SINCE 3 AM WITH YOUR FUCKING KNOCKING - I'M NOT INCLINED TO HELP YOU
AT ALL! GO THE _FUCK_ AWAY!"
She gave up on my door after that, but kept on down the hall (thin
walls - you can hear stuff going on in the hallway from one's room,
although you can't generally hear stuff going on in one room from
another room, unless you or they have the door open.) After I gave
up on sleep, around 7 am, I told her as I came in from getting a
bottle of pop at the afrementioned 7-11 that I would have given her
a damn quarter if she had been considerate enough to wait until
daytime to begin her knocking fest. She said "I don't need a
quarter. I have $10 on me". Now that's REALLY infuriating. Worse,
she jumped my way as I opened the door - I slammed it shut behind
me, locking it QUICK. She began banging, and even _tested the
doorknob_, demanding I let her use my phone because she wanted to
call the "landlord". I informed her that the "landlord" was a
corporation that keeps business hours. "But that's two hours
away!", she whines. "Well, goody, goody. Go grab a coffee
somewhere. Just go away!" She kept knocking, and knocking and
knocking .. so at 8 am, I figured it was a decent enough time to
turn on some music - at a level which I knew could be heard quite
clearly in the hallway, but not in any other room (including the
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: True story. [2/2]
|Date: 01 Jan 97 10:56:04
EID:037a 22215700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf701
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...
neighbouring bathroom; I tested it, and its wall is adjacent to
mine.) And I play music that others find extremely annoying - Celtic
folk "rock" that has its origins in bardic music of several hundred
years ago (and most of the songs indeed are marked as
"traditional".) Every time she tried to knock on my door after that,
I just turned the music up a couple of notches and ignored her.
I did hear her talking with SOMEONE around 11; I don't know if she
got her stuff or not, or whether someone else filed a complaint and
she finally got hauled off, and I haven't slept at home the past
couple nights. If she shows up AGAIN, however, I'll tell the police
that she's acting crazy and dangerous. Which she was doing; jumping
at my door, thinking she could muscle her way in. Sheeit; if she
had made the distance in time, I'd have decked her for touching my
door. Period.
Perhaps I need to write up a special cartoon that illustrates just
what I think of people like this, and hang THAT on my door as well.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Survival tip: Never MOON a werewolf.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: ask and ye shall rece
|Date: 01 Jan 97 11:16:05
EID:81af 22215a00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf702
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Dave Hamilton cast ask and ye shall rece at Sue
Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> I was kinda wondering myself. It tastes like it goes skunky a mere
SA> hour after it leaves the brewery.
DH> I guess I've just never had it within an hour of leaving
DH> the brewery to be able to appreciate any improvement on the
DH> shelf stuff. It tastes like salt water to me.
I don't even think it tastes THAT good.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Borg? Where? I don't see-- *(#$#..NO CARRIER
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 01 Jan 97 11:17:06
EID:f226 22215a20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf703
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Al Schroeder cast False Christian Scum at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
SA> I've seen nothing but extremism from Sean, followed with his "just a
SA> joke" disclaimer, which appears to be very little more than a simple
SA> way of saying "don't flame me - I can't take it!"
AS>
AS> Well, I've sometimes seen what I consider "normal" responses from
AS> Sean...i.e., normal for everybody else. I used to get my feathers
AS> ruffled about his "EVERY deathcultist needs to" ...but then I realized
AS> he didn't mean much of it.
Oh, I think he means more than he wants people to think he does.
SA> his consistency, and from what Becke has mentioned, I can't see any
SA> evidence at all that he does NOT mean what he says when he spouts
SA> his vitriol about peoples he seems to hold responsible for his own
SA> failings.
AS> Well, certainly Becke had more personal experience with him than I
AS> have.
Yes; and notice her personal opinion of him isn't very high,
either.
SA> If he IS joking, then he's as seriously split-personality - or more
SA> so - than Staal ever appeared to be, and should seek serious
SA> psychiatric help for a few decades.
AS>
AS> Or maybe this outlet is what is needed to KEEP him from needing to do
AS> so...a way to let loose his outrageousness.
Perhaps. But if someone's going to snap, they're going to snap.
SA> And he seems to have done it to slough off his own shortcomings in
SA> that relationship and lay every bit of blame on her, to assauge his
SA> own precious ego. The "man" could not even afford the $100 or so it
SA> would have taken for him to visit, and expected Becke to pay the
SA> whole tab. And yet he complains about others being a "burden"; he
SA> doesn't seem to mind being one himself.
AS> I know Becke has off and on been in hard financial positions herself,
AS> also.
So's Paul. But of course, Sean won't see that; he probably thinks
Becke chose Paul simply BECAUSE he's deeply in debt .. a twisted
logic if I've ever seen one.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... This has been recorded on sticky-tape and rust ...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: 2 Corinthians 9:13
|Date: 01 Jan 97 11:29:07
EID:013c 22215ba0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cbf704
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Martin Goldberg cast 2 Corinthians 9:13 at Christian
Hedemark .. and all hell broke loose.
MG>> CH> Please! Don't use the tast tense. "Jesus Saves"
MG>>Non biblical evidence for this nonsense please.
CH> "Jesus Saves" is present. Even now.
MG> Listen, Junior...I already twitted one liar today because he lied and
MG> used semantic games to argue.
MG> I wnat non biblical evidence that jesus saves. Is tht too much to
MG> ask?
Maybe he has a Swiss bank account, and is trying to keep it secret.
Shhh.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: 2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:14:00
EID:4473 222281c0
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to Roger Hunter <=-
GTP> Can you convert to believing in a fact that has been
GTP> established?
No conversion is necessary for that; I -do- believe in established facts.
GTP> Why would I need to have someone hire me if I could get all the money
GTP> I needed by myself?? Tell you what, join my cult now, and you'll
Yeah. That's the answer to the "buy my book on how to get rich" schemes.
GTP> qualify to take advantage of anything I learn. You just have to
GTP> believe I have breasts.
Not without first hand evidence
RH> I found $50 at Red Lobster yesterday, does that count?
GTP> Had you thought you wanted to find money? Was it the right phase of
No, but it's always welcome.
GTP> the moon? What time of day was it? Etc, etc. You know, sometimes
a
How would you determine the "right" phase?
As an aside, I've conducted extensive research in Astrology as it
relates to earthquake prediction and can say positively that there's
nothing to it.
GTP> cigar is just a cigar and most of the time a coincidence is just that.
Too true.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:17:00
EID:7895 22228220
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Yes. Copyright yourself NOW. If someone gets hold of a bootleg
AS> copy... Silly as it sounds, that might be a legal matter in the far
AS> future... He also postulated that the best way to explore the universe
AS> is for virtual selves to go in starships, who would never age, and
AS> thus the lightspeed barrier would be irrelevant...what would they care
AS> if it takes hundreds of years to go from star to star.
What would WE care, for that matter. If we were in contact with them,
it would take too long. If we were not, we might as well not bother
as we would gain nothing from it.
AS> Someone else's Heaven might include a copy of you, also. Or
AS> someone else's Hell. Tipler argued long that a perfect simulation IS
AS> the same as the original person in any substantial way (a difference
AS> that makes no difference IS no difference.)...but not to my mind,
AS> conclusively. For that matter, a sadist. He makes virtual copies of
AS> his victims. He "tortures" the virtual selves. He doesn't touch the
AS> originals. The virtual
AS> selves "feel" the pain, every bit as much agony as if it and they
AS> were real. They cry and moan like those in Auchswitz. Can they
AS> complain? Can they sue? Can they get the sadist prosecuted?
AS> Oh, brave new world. But it's one of those things that sound like
AS> it will eventually happen...
I'm waiting for virtual sex. Can one be divorced over that?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: DARK BIBLE #4
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:20:00
EID:58bf 22228280
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> My wife belongs to a farming family (yes, I DID marry a farmer's
AS> daughter)...sometimes farmers have REAL reason to pray...
And usually it does them no good either...
AS> to change bit more likely? Of course, we have to remember, that most
AS> of the others are using their MINDS, not a random number generation,
AS> and all his quantum god would have to do is influence the flow of
AS> electrons into THEIR
AS> mind, also...
Yes. This requires that God be outside of time, to know the winning
number and be able to influence you to choose the winning number
before the balls have chosen it.
... What do you mean? You actually read this Tagline?!?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GOD VS. SANTA CLAUS
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:42:00
EID:6150 22228540
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Sure. What does a God lose by dying? What kind of sacrifice is death
RH> to an immortal God?
AS> Depends on how human He was. I think He felt the PAIN, personally,
AS> every bit as much as you and I do. I even think...my opinion, no
AS> church dogma, just my opinion...that at one point, during the
AS> Crucifixion, God...withdrew Himself from Jesus. That Jesus was at THAT
That's not possible if Jesus was/is God. You are suggesting a merely
human man infused with the spirit of God. That's a heresy of some
sort, I think.
AS> point Man and JUST Man. That all of the sudden, the link Jesus had
AS> felt with God all His
AS> life had been cut...as if He had been amputated. For He was tempted
AS> "in all ways like us". A temptation to give into despair is with us,
AS> always. Often caused by a sense of seperation from God. He could not
AS> experience that without being seperated from God...and to make sure
AS> that no one could
AS> say afterwards, "well, it's easy to survive doubt in GOOD
AS> circumstances, but how about when all the odds are stacked against
AS> you, and the screws are tightening" He did it while Jesus was in the
AS> worst possible position. Hence the cry (echoed from the OT) "My God,
AS> my God, why hast Thou forsaken
I thought that was just a reference to Isaiah or something?
AS> me!" Later Jesus was reabsorbed into the whole. But for a time there,
AS> He faced life as we all do, without any surety or link to God...at the
AS> worst POSSIBLE time. So no one can go up to God and say, "Well, if you
AS> had to endure what _I_ did..." without God being able to answer back,
AS> "I went through something at least as bad, anyway..."
But He (God) didn't. According to you above He separated Himself from
the man at that time, thus did not experience it.
RH> Oh yeah, sure. "See, all you do is die, then get resurrected." That's
RH> a BIG help, Al.
AS> Hmmm. I'm going to HAVE to get a new copy of that book. Arguing with
AS> decades-old memories isn't helping...does the PASSOVER PLOT have
AS> examples of where someone fooled themselves into excusing a hoax as
a
AS> fulfillment of scripture, instead?
Actually, it quotes a bunch of scripture and says that it is possible
to interpret it as saying that the Messiah would not really die.
AS> Non-believers before, or non-believers after? If after, it doesn't
AS> make sense..."Oh, yeah, I saw Jesus walking around after his death,
AS> but hey, I don't BELIEVE in it?" If non-believer before but believer
Before, of course. You asked what would convince me.
AS> afterwards, I cite James, the brother of Jesus...who thought He was
AS> crazy before, but is
AS> cited by Paul as one of those to Jesus appeared to...and according to
AS> Acts
AS> was later head of the Jerusalem Church. (I always liked the
AS> apocryphal story of Jesus' appearance to James..."The Son of MAn has
AS> risen from among
AS> those who sleep"...but then, I'm a younger brother. Although my older
AS> brother is a LOOOONG way from a Christ-figure....)_
And I specifically ruled out biblical quotes.
RH> Me neither. Comet strikes are well understood and leave physical
RH> evidence behind.
AS> But explaining an entire class of animals disappearing, perhaps,
AS> is...at least unusual...with such an event.
No, it's an expected result of such an event. The next one will
take US out, if we're still here.
AS> that HAS been classed as "extraordinary" which in turn wasn't
AS> believed until "extraordinary" evidence was produced?
RH> Sure. Continental drift. No one believed it at first because it
RH> was contrary to what we knew of the Earth at the time. It took
RH> the additional evidence of magnetic lineations to finally convince
RH> everyone.
AS> Excellent! And we in turn may be awaiting more evidence...
But you keep saying we can't wait, we must decide NOW, before we
die and are fried.
BTW, in my small library is "An Intelligent Man's Guide to Science"
by Asimov, in which he concludes that continental drift is impossible.
RH> All right. Never mind 2,000 year old stories. What modern,
RH> investigated acknowledged miracle can you point to?
AS> Well, I'm at a disadvantage here, Roger, in that I don't think
AS> miracles occur at random. I don't think a lot of miracles DO happen
Did I say random anywhere?
AS> today, although I acknowledge the possibility. (There was something
in
AS> the paper recently how a local coffee shop has a cinnamon bun that
AS> came out shaped like Mother Teresa's face...with the nun's habit,
AS> etc...and they are keeping it under glass for people to oooooohhh
AS> over. You can imagine how little credence I give to THAT.) I think
Saw it. Looked like a stale bun to me.
AS> God is not so clumsy a workman as to constantly NEED miracles, save
AS> when it makes greater sense in His overall plan. (For instance, in the
AS> Christian worldview, Jesus' Death and Resurrection, far from being a
AS> joker God tossed into the pack of ordinary events, is actually what
AS> the whole drama of life and death was leading UP to, and the gateway
AS> to the next stage.) But I can name an event...extensively
AS> studied...where an object appeared literally out of nothing, with
AS> nothing to precede it---expanded much faster than the speed of light
AS> for a short while--and seems curiously self-organizing without any
AS> immediately perceivable designer. All three would strike me as
AS> miraculous taken seperately...if one told me, say, something appeared
AS> out of thin air, I'd go, "Yeah, RIGHT..." and walk away...or that a
AS> natural object sudddenly produced Cabbage PAtch Dolls, without there
AS> being a designer...or someone told me a spaceship just broke the light
AS> barrier. The universe. (With Linde's or Guth's inflationary
AS> hypothesis thrown in, which allows for expansion of the universe
AS> faster than light for a brief period.)
You see a miracle and imagine a superfriend to explain it. I say we
are unable to speak intelligently about the Big Bang itself.
See the difference?
... This tagline is made just for Al Schroeder
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GOD AL AND RAPE A CHI
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:11:00
EID:d16b 22229160
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Ronald Vass <=-
AS> No one ever asked me the question that were asked of some others, if
AS> God appeared to me and asked me to sacrifice my kids, would I do it?
AS> (Or for that matter, ANY kids.)
AS> The answer is no.
AS> If it damn my soul for eternity, I would not do it.
AS> Never.
AS> Ever.
Ahem...-I- did, Al, not too long ago. Or was it someone else?
I gotta start archiving things....
But why wouldn't you do it? They'd go straight to Heaven, surely?
AS> As evidence for what? What are you talking about? Where does
AS> God...specifically...encourage kids to be raped?
"but keep all the virgins for yourself, that have not known a man..."
What else would you call it?
... Where's a fool and his money when you need them?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Adultery, etc.
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:07:00
EID:070b 222268e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3766
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Adultery, etc. at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
KW> Anyway, Glen didn't say that pagans are unfaithful, he said that as
we
KW> pagan women are not the property of our men, the concept of 'adultery'
KW> doesn't apply to us.
SA> Frankly, I don't see the point in "open" marriages. If both (or
SA> one) agree to run around, then why bother getting married under ANY
SA> ceremony, religious (of any faith) or civil? It might give nifty
SA> tax benefits of some sort, but in places that allow "common-law"
SA> setups, you can claim those anyway after living together after a
SA> certain period of time. But I see little point in even referring to
SA> someone as their "common-law" spouse if one or the other (or both)
SA> sleep with whomever comes along. Any marriage, of whatever sort,
SA> without fidelity between both partners is kind of pointless.
JS> Sue, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I think you are
JS> talking about some sort of "idealized" marriage, not marriage as it
JS> functions as an institution in the real world.
I'm basically speaking of the concept of marriage, and questioning
what it means when one or both partners agree to take other
partners.
JS> Some points of reality. Many married men are, in fact, unfaithful to
JS> their wives. So, now, where does this leave the wife? Is she still
JS> bound by her marriage vows to remain faithful to her husband, at
JS> least until she divorces him? Are you interpreting the wife's vow of
JS> fidelity to mean unconditional fidelity--regardless of the fidelity
of
JS> the husband? Should a wife have the option of divorce--if the wedding
JS> vows say "till death do us part"? If she has the option, should she
JS> take it? (Presumably you know all the feminist-cited statistics about
JS> how wives fare economically after divorces.)
Oh, I'm not denying that infidelity happens, or that someone should
be cuckolded and should just keep their traps shut; far from it. In
fact, I think the cuckolded partner has every right to pack up and
leave with no further notice once s/he finds out.
What I was mainly questioning was the point in getting married in
the first place when both partners agree that they should be allowed
to have other partners (or when one partner insists s/he be allowed
to have other partners, that just because s/he is now married
doesn't mean s/he has a "right" to take other partners.)
JS> One of the main purposes of marriage is to provide a nurturing
JS> environment for the rearing of children. Often, a divorce will
JS> do great psychological harm to children. So many an unhappy couple
JS> stays together until the children are grown up, and then gets
JS> divorced.
Frankly, staying together "for the kids", or getting married simply
to have kids with one another is a very bad reason to get married.
After all, you can breed all you want without getting married; it
_should_ be that each partner is committed to the other that is the
reason for marriage ... anything else simply doesn't last, or is
rather pointless.
JS> The French have a saying: "The chain of wedlock is so heavy it
JS> takes two to carry it--sometimes three."
JS> Frankly, I see a legalistic-contractual view of marriage as
JS> unrealistic. And I think that someone like Clinton, who sticks with
JS> his marriage and his child even though engaging in philandering, is
JS> probably better than someone like Dole, who just divorces his first
JS> wife and gets a younger model, but appears to have been technically
JS> "faithful" to each. Yes, infidelity is an evil. Ideally, it wouldn't
JS> happen. But in the real world, we often have to accept the lesser of
JS> two evils.
Again, I see both Clinton's and Dole's arrangements as rather
pointless. If you think you're gonna want to screw around with
others all your life, or that you want the "perfect" mate (and
decide that you'll put your current mate away just because they
become ugly, incapacitated or whatnot) why bother getting married?
I actually know a couple of "swingers"; they were friends of mine
when I was a teenager, and they moved back to town last year. Since
I hadn't seen them since just before they got married, I was more
than happy to hear from them again, and go visit at their new home.
While there, however, they attempted to get me to consent to their
weird little lifestyle of getting others into their sexual rondelet; I
ran for it, and haven't contacted them since. They have three kids
now .. they explained that they're together only because of the
kids, but take whatever partners they can each get. What the hell
is the point in that? Why did they get married in the first place?
I have no idea. THey seemed happy enough, but there didn't seem to
be much point in their getting married oh, so many years ago -
except that her parents were strict traditionalists, and demanded
they get married when she got preggers. So it seems they stay
married, not so much for the kids, but so as not to bring shame upon
her in the eyes of her parents, which is really DUMB. If they were
simply living together, well, that might be a different story, but
married? What's the utter point? The very term "marriage"
insinuates exclusivity, and the term "open marriage" is pretty much
an oxymoron.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... It's a Federal 3-Ring Circus, it's called Democracy ...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Public Service Ads [1/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:22:01
EID:e630 22226ac0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3767
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Public Service Ads at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
JS> Is it true that many teenagers do not know how to say "no" to sex?
SA> I think the comment about "social skills" is more on the mark;
SA> social skills are something that have to be learned, in any
SA> vertebrate social species.
JS> Agreed. But are there really no forums (fora?) for such learning
JS> in today's society?
Not really. If there was one paid for by taxpayer's money (say, in
schools) the fundies would probably nix it, anyway, because it
"teaches sex".
JS> I turn on the TV and see an ad where a black boy of about 10 or so is
JS> given a "sales pitch" to do drugs by an older man--have some on me,
JS> the first one is free--and all the standard pusher talk. The boy
JS> keeps saying "no, get lost" despite repeated badgering. The ad closes
JS> with the camera pulling back to see the older man, who turns out to
be
JS> the boy's father--and it becomes obvious that they were role-playing.
JS> The father puts his arm around the boy and congratulates him. Then
JS> you see the logo for "Partnership for a Drug-Free America" or
JS> whatever.
JS> I think it is a good ad, and suggests a good practice for parents and
JS> their children. Can't something similar be done for girls and sex? (I
JS> don't just mean an ad, I mean role playing activities by parents,
JS> teachers, older sisters, whomever, with young girls.)
Oh, it probably could be, IF you could get the kid to see beyond
playing a game. Teenagers tend to hear whatever their elders say,
mutter "yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it" and then turn around and do what
they will, anyway. Just roleplaying out a guy selling drugs, or a
guy pressuring sex, doesn't mean much unless some very good reasons
are given as to WHY one should say "no", and even then it's no
guarantee that the kid won't go out and see for him/her self what
it's all about.
And harping on something endlessly can, indeed, just pique someone's
interest and curiosity, as much as simply ignoring it can.
I went through roleplaying in the course I'm taking; didn't teach me
a diddly damn thing, frankly, but then I'm too used to using
roleplaying as more of a recreational than an educational
experience.
SA> It takes experience and hard
SA> knocks to learn when and to whom to say "yes" and "no". And some
SA> people simply don't ever learn.
JS> All the more reason for somewhat formal classes or role-playing
JS> exercises. We have classes for virtually everything else,
JS> from touch typing to dancing lessons to soccer practice, etc., why
JS> not for this if it is so important and if the need is not being met
JS> informally?
Fundies and their opposition to sex-ed classes of any sort, most
likely. Or else there just MIGHT be programmes and such (church and
school) but teenagers simply ignore it and do as they will. After
all, if they mostly just sit around and watch TV otherwise, they
witness hours upon hours of shows telling them how sex can make them
popular and so on. Television is a great persuader - if it weren't,
no one would pay $130,000 for a few seconds of advertising time.
SA> Speaking of teenagers, I recently saw a Beavis and Butthead show for
SA> the first time. While most of the humour was base and stupid
SA> (though I DID like it when they went to apply for a 900 number, and
SA> decided signing their names and putting the day's date was too hard
SA> to bother with even though they were already approved), I think it
SA> might just be rather accurate commentary on the state of teenagers
SA> today, at least from what I've seen of some of them, even those who
SA> have the wit to use a computer. I don't call the local chat board
SA> at all any more, because of the twits who come on and 1) expect to
SA> find instant sex, and 2) can't construct a sentence, spell, or
SA> comment on anything beyond heavy metal or alternative music and
SA> sports.
JS> I do call a number of local boards, often to play RPGs like LORD.
JS> I read the message sections, often written by teens. Many teens seem
JS> virtually inarticulate. Most apparently don't know what a dictionary
JS> is and couldn't spell if their lives depended on it. Sometimes they
JS> talk about religion--often incoherently. One young man was saying he
JS> had no religious beliefs and therefore declared himself
JS> "an antagonistic." [sic] I had to explain to him that he meant to
JS> say "an agnostic." He replied with great confusion: "Then what does
JS> 'antagonistic' mean?" I then explained *that* to him.
JS> ... Believe It ... Or Not!
Oh, I believe it. Ever see a Never-Ending Story sub? Some of them
are all right; I remember one written by university students that
turned out quite good and interesting, as well as very funny. Then
I looked at the kiddie-run boards, and geez. Nothing but each
person "raping" the other (when they weren't busy beating
up/sexually molesting one very unpopular kiddie user that was
himself banned for stupidity on every kiddie TAG and Renegade board
in town - yes, he WAS that bad.)
And I've run into the ones who like to pretend they're smart, but
really aren't, and are easily shown to be as such. I had one kid
insist that Sydney was the capital of Australia - Canberra couldn't
be, since he'd never heard of it before. And of course, there's the
ones who insist on using rap-speak, and then get all offended when
no one understands what the hell they're saying, and call their
usage of "Me be " as baby-talk.
JS> One thing that I find a bit disturbing is the contrast between these
JS> teens' life experiences and educations, on the one hand, and the
JS> ready availability of fairly hard-core pornographic
JS> images/pics/gifs/jpgs that are on many of the boards. I am not for
JS> censorship, but it seems a bit bizarre for teens not to have sexual
JS> experience and yet have easy access to graphic images of oral sex
JS> (with ejaculate dripping off the woman's face and tongue), bondage
JS> scenes, orgy scenes, etc. We are *not* talking about "Playboy"-type
JS> images. Meanwhile, back in the real world, teen boy takes teen girl
JS> to see a movie like "The Long Kiss Goodnight," teen boy gets "carded"
JS> (asked for proof of age), he gets turned away for being underage (!),
JS> so the couple go to see some PG movie instead and spend the whole time
JS> making out and not watching the movie. Something just doesn't add up
JS> here.
Well, that's the way it is, and probably was how it always was.
They see all this, and of course go out and try it for themselves;
if society is so enamoured of it, well, hell, it can't be all that
bad, can it? If you see adults in images, TV, movies, or whatnot
doing nothing but think about getting some, and actually getting it,
then of COURSE the teenagers are going to follow suit. Sex is a
basic drive; people are going to be curious no matter how pervasive
it is in the media; the media just sort of gives it that extra
glamour that can make it seem even the more attractive.
It's mostly something that has to be dealt with, rather than doing
away with it altogether; neither making sex freely available nor
putting the guilt of the Moral Majority into their heads is going to
stop it. The only thing to do is try to teach the social skills
needed to recognise that, no, you don't need to have it with
everyone who heats your pants, no, you don't need to do it to be
popular, and no, not everyone who seems nice and kind really is, as
well as teaching what the consequences may be and helping to make
birth control options easier to get.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Public Service Ads [2/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:22:02
EID:a230 22226ac0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3768
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... My god _is_ real! I carved him myself!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/2021 167/166
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: False Christian Scum [2/2] [1/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:53:03
EID:5934 22226ea0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3769
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, J.J. Hitt cast False Christian Scum [2/2] [1/2]
at Sue Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> But what when companies saturate every market in the world?
SA> Well, then, their only choice is to encourage population
SA> (and thus market) growth. It isn't only religion that
SA> demands more and more people - it's also a demand of the
SA> capitalist system, for what they consider sound economic
SA> reasons. This can be learned in any half-decent business
SA> course.
JH> You sound just like the Unabomber (and I couldn't agree with you
JH> more).
Thanks, I think. :)
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Mary Poppins: First of the Q to visit earth.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1
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SEEN-BY: 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Paradox [1/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:57:04
EID:785b 22226f20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd376a
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast Paradox at Sue Armstrong .. and all
hell broke loose.
Sorry about taking so long getting back to you on this; with the
holidays and such, it's been difficult to sit down and reply
thoughtfully to all the mail I've been getting, and I didn't want to
skimp on this one, especially since this is one of the more pleasant
posts I've had to respond to in a while.
DL> You said some time ago that you wanted to know how Paradox
DL> works in Mage:The Ascention. Well I'm feeling alittle bored, so here
we
DL> go.
DL> Paradox comes about when a mage has performed magick that goes against
DL> consentual reality. Reality is defined by what the sleepers (the
DL> general population) as believable. The Technocracy has for the past
DL> thousand or so years molded the population of the world to more readily
DL> accept their paradigm. That science is the only thing that is able to
DL> alter reality. Anything else would go against reality, and therefore
DL> not be possiable. This is why mages always try to work their magick
as
DL> *coincidental* magick. That is, magic which would be believable by the
DL> general population.
Funny. This is basically the reason I've been using to explain the
Delerium.
The Delerium, of course, is what humans experience when they see a
Garou in Crinos - their reactions are basically based on their
Willpower (or, as I use it for incidental encounters, a roll from
1-10.) Reactions range from Catatonic Fear (the human curls up into
a ball, whimpers uncontrollably, and can't remember a thing
afterwards) to No Reaction/Blase - the person is likely Kinfolk and
has no reaction at all to seeing the "monster".
The canonical explanation is that it comes from a race memory of
sorts stemming back to the Impergium - the progrom Garou had against
humans, in order to forcibly keep their numbers down and keep them
from spreading their Weaver-stuff all over the place (lasted until
about 8,000 BC, or whenver it was that the first cities, like Ur,
were established. Certain tribes, like the Children of Gaia and
Stargazers, were instrumental in stopping it.) That's why it's based
on Willpower. (CoG, by the way, according to optional rules re:
Tribal Weaknesses, begin with an automatic 5 on the Delerium Chart -
Terror
because they didn't participate in the Impergium at all. No one can
supposedly score less than 5 around them, as you'd have to add +5 to
whatever their Willpower or Delerium roll is, so doing it that way,
folks would actually be starting at 6 - Conciliatory (person begs
for his life.))
However, I don't like the race memory idea; that's best left to the
Mokole (the werealligators, "Gaia's Memory".) Rather, I tend to
explain it to myself as a function of a person's upbringing - how
much of seeing something "outside the norm" can they handle? It's
still basically a function of Willpower, I suppose, but takes into
account individual personality and culture (therefore, I discard the
idea that anyone with Amerind hertiage is automatically immune to
the Delerium - if they've been raised in cities and went to science
class, then by golly, they are NOT going to be prepared to accept
seeing a 9 foot tall man-wolf raging down the street.) If someone's
some sort of crystal-weenie, a fundy who believes in daemons, or
someone who takes the Weekly World News as true and honest
reporting, they're going to be quite able to rank pretty high on the
Delerium Chart. A science PhD, of course, is going to rank pretty
darn low, and will most likely be reduced to a quivering mass of
jelly even if the Crinos just walks by calmly on his way to Trader
Vic's for a nice bowl of beef chow mein with his other peacenik CoG
or Stargazer buddies.
As an example, I had one character (Ghost, a metis Get of Fenris
Ahroun) track down a serial rapist in the Toronto subway system. I
didn't make any stats for the victim; all I did was pre-roll a D10
to see what her reaction would be should she see Ghost go to Crinos
in front of her (so I could say whether or not she curled into a
ball, ran away, attacked Ghost himself, or whatnot). She got an 8 -
Curiosity. So, while Ghost the Not-So-Friendly-Get was smacking
around the rapist (and the Bane that was hanging around him), she
simply ensconced herself behind a post in the deserted station and
watched EVERYTHING. And told CITY-TV News what she'd seen. She's
bound to become a bee in the Garou's bonnet before long.
Worse, at the last session, an Uktena businessman of sorts (who was
actually born to Black Spiral parents, but was rescued by a Gangrel)
let a BSD corporate facilitator get away from him - and she ran off
across Yonge St in a Fox frenzy. And what do you know .. there's a
reporter and a photographer from the Toronto Sun wandering down
their street on their way to cover some business news. (I didn't
bother rolling for them, because I thought it would be just the
story element to throw in. Heh. "Giant Wolverine Causes Havoc on
Yonge!")
Can you say "Rent Veil"? I knew you could.
DL> To draw an example. Samuel (my Celestial Chorus mage. The fundy) comes
DL> across a Nephandi spirit in the middle of downtown Calgary. Without
DL> thinking he decides to cast an "exorcism" against the spirit to banish
DL> it back to the Deep Umbra. Using Correspondence 3, Entropy 2, Spirit
4,
DL> and just for spice Prime 2, a shaft of blinding white light blasts from
DL> the palms of his hands. Screaming, to steal a line from J.R.R. Tolkin's
DL> Return of the King, "You can not enter here. Go back to the abyss
DL> prepared for you. Go back. Fall to the nothingness that awaits you and
DL> your master."
DL> This sort of thing is unacceptable to the normal understanding of the
DL> world. People cannot just blast...things with shafts of light issuing
DL> forth from their hands. That would make it vulger magic and Samual
DL> would automaticaly gain one point of paradox. More (much more) should
DL> he botch (throw more ones than successes) the spell.
Yeah, I can imagine that.
DL> Five: These flaws can drastically alter the mage. They can change a
DL> mages attributes dramatically for short periods fo time (adding or
DL> subtracting three dots of strength for a day) or alter them slightly
DL> but permently (one dot of strength gone forever). The mage may find
DL> himself blinded for a significant amount of time or may be unable to
DL> control his nervous system. Weard distortions fo the human anatomy
DL> can take place as wll as distortions of the world around him (such as
DL> inanimate objects tuning to glass when touched). At this level, the
DL> mage hass trouble even getting out of bed.
DL> This is just one example of some minor backlashes. More sevear ones
DL> can take to form of aggravated health level damage per point. The
DL> mage can be pulled into a paradox realm. Usualy a realm having to do
DL> with the hightest sphear which caused the backlash. In the above
DL> senario, if Samual were pulled into a paradox realm,the spirit of
DL> Samual would be pulled away and locked in an Umbral or Dream realm,
DL> with his body lying in a catatonic heap.
Yes, I can imagine worse. In fact, Sam Haight, the Garou
Skinner, is now an ashtray on some Artificer's desk. He was A) A
CoG kinfolk abused by his father who b) Killed a Tremere, ghouled
himself, and learned Thaumaturgy and then c) Learned a Wyrm rite
that basically let him become full Garou by skinning one Garou from
each Auspice - he thus became a "Skindancer" and later d) killed
some Mage, learned Spheres, and stole an artifact sword that allowed
him to use mage spheres without threat of Paradox and e) was finally
overwhelmed in a huge battle against Garou, Kindred, and
who-knows-who else in which his sword got broken and f) The Paradox
backlash was so mighty, having stored up so much of it over the
years that his body was destroyed and his soul turned into an
ashtray.
And the peasants rejoiced.
DL> You've also heard of paradox spirits that show up in a backlash. I
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Paradox [2/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:13:05
EID:3c5b 222291a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd376b
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...
DL> don't use these "reality police". They seem like too much of a cop
DL> out to me. Well no. I take that back. I've used them acouple of
DL> times. But only when the mage had entered Quite. Quite is where a
DL> mage created a world which only exists in his mind. He can take
DL> damage and interact with that world but when he comes out of Quite
DL> he'll probably find himself in an asylam.
And that's the beauty of the WoD system - you can rerationalise just
about anything you dislike.
You should see the Kitsune rewrite most of us are working with; the
version of these Japanese "werefoxes" in Caerns: Places of Power
isn't all that popular, and most of the STs I know have been bugging
an Asian Mythology expert for info on traditional Asian fox-spirits.
I myself prefer to use the legendary, rather than the WW, version of
Kitsune.
Ethan Skemp has begun having Bete (other shapeshifter) specfic books
written and released; the first one will be on the Bastet
(Werecats.) Apparently, all the Bete are being redone, so hopefully,
if and when they get around to the Kitsune, they'll do a better
job. Ethan's pretty much well aware of the opinions floating around
on the Caerns version (which he had nothing to do with) so perhaps
he'll completely redo the race.
DL> Anyway there it is. The long-short explination of Paradox.
DL> The next interesting question would be.... Why don't Werewolves and
DL> Vamp attract paradox. I have my own theory that we are using. But I
DL> wnat to hear yours. :>
I couldn't tell you about Kindred; don't really know much about how
they work to say from their POV, and frankly, the V:tM sourcebook
doesn't go into any detail about it; it's simply dated and doesn't
have the world background the later games have (it was the first -
what does one expect?) From a Garou's POV, Kindred get their powers
from the Wyrm. And Garou don't suffer backlash because their Gifts
are granted to them by Spirits, whereas Mages simply muck around
with magic on their own, without permission (and Kindred,
presumably, get theirs on loan from the Wyrm, though I'm sure they'd
disagree. Since the Wyrm is a _kind_ of Spirit, well ...) Your best
bet is to ask a V:tM ST as to what they think about their favourite
WoD denizens.
Wraiths are already pretty much spirits; I consider them along the
lines of Garou Ancestor Spirits. And Fae, well, they're inherently
magical creatures and don't have to worry in the first place. I
don't know if they count as Spirits, but I consider them along the
lines of the Garou, which are part physical and part Spirit in and
of themselves. Garou are simply more in touch with their physical
part than Arcadian Faeries are; but Changelings are probably in
about the same boat as Garou are, though still inherently more
Spiritual in nature. Mages are, well, human, and don't have the
inherent Spirit part that Fae, Changelings and Garou do, except
perhaps for when they die and become Wraiths and/or wind up in the
Dark Umbra. (I also have a whole theory as to why human
spirits wind up there, but animal spirits wind up in the Near Umbra
as well. Yes, I consider animal spirits (Naturae) as being, at
least some of them, the "ghosts" of dead critters. Some of the
Spirits in Axis Mundi simply represent concepts, and never HAD a
body to physically represent them. Death's Breath Spirits are a
good example of this, and one of my favourite entries in that
book, next to The Twice-Born. Unicorn Spirits, Pegasus Spirits, and
the like might also be considered Spirits that never had a body.
Unique Incarna are simply the idealisation of a concept or species,
such as Fenris or Falcon, and given immense Spiritual power.)
I base this on W:tA second edition rules, and the revision found in
Axis Mundi. In 1st Edition, Garou taught each other Gifts, but they
were originally granted by spirits. In the 2nd Edition BBOR
(developer Bill Bridges), Garou can still teach each other Gifts,
but it's more difficult; much easier and more common to learn them
from Spirits (or Fae, in the case of certain Fianna Gifts.)
Axis Mundi (developer Ethan Skemp) went further than this. In one
of the opening sections, it pretty much nixes Garou teaching Garou
Gifts, where it says that Spirits, upon teaching a Gift, demand that
its secret be kept - Gifts are solely the province of Spirits. I
agree with this 100%, as it explains the lack of Paradox for my
purposes, anyway. Quite simply, Spirits see these humans, with no
right and no pact with themselves to use magical powers, using magic
and get right pissed off; and the more magic a Mage does, the more
pissed the Spirits get. I've already told one of my players, a
Silent Strider who's now crippled and can only move at half normal
rate, that no, he should not use the Gift: Speed of Thought to
simply keep up with others; such misuse of Gifts can piss Spirits
off and they WILL do something about it if it happens too often.
Gifts are to be used in the service of Gaia, and not necessarily for
selfish purposes.
That's why they're called Gifts, after all. ;)
BTW, did you get your package yet?
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... The Garou give new meaning to the term "dogface soldier".
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OH HELL
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:35:06
EID:1ee7 22228460
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd376c
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Judith Bandsma cast OH HELL at Al Schroeder .. and
all hell broke loose.
AS> Then the gentle goose, who never wages war, is less ethical than the
JB> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JB> What planet have YOU been living on? Try upsetting a goose sometime,
JB> Al. Say by...oh, just looking at it wrong. I think you'd find you'd
JB> much rather have a 200 lb. Rottweiller coming at you.
No shit. Hiram Walker Distillers didn't use watch-geese in its storage
warehouse yards just for fun.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... "Ach, tis no more than wot God gave me, ya Puritan pukes!" - Willy
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1
SEEN-BY: 280/169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278
SEEN-BY: 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92
SEEN-BY: 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 733/1 2401/0 2424/10
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Oh Hell
|Date: 02 Jan 97 16:37:07
EID:4e08 222284a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd376d
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Dan Ceppa cast Oh Hell at Al Schroeder .. and all
hell broke loose.
AS> Then the gentle goose, who never wages war, is less ethical than the
DC> You never had one as a pet, have you? Those critters are downright
DC> nasty, but tastey.
One of my great-aunts had a couple of geese as "pets". My
great-uncle bought them for Christmas dinner one year, but she
wouldn't let him kill them once she saw them. They loved her, but
hated everyone else, and would come out and attack visitors' cars as
they pulled into the yard. You had to wait in the car until she
came out and called off the birds.
Of course, then there was that big bastard rooster of hers, that got
mixed in with the shipment of laying hens ...
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... Support Evolution-400 billion amphibians can't be wrong.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1
SEEN-BY: 280/169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: another one
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:20:08
EID:34e4 22229280
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd376e
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Dan Ceppa cast another one at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.
JB> What's so strange about that? The note was written on the
JB> child's FACE in indelible Magic Marker.
JB> in my opinion. She was suspended WITH pay.
SA> That's a bloody outrage. She should have been fired and her name
SA> sent to other school districts. And a note markered on her face,
SA> permanently: "DO NOT HIRE".
DC> I like that! However, instead of markered, a branding iron
DC> would be the better choice.
How about a tattoo, the old fashioned way, with a knife and ink?
SA> school thanks to teachers who looked the other way at "boys just
SA> having fun" beating the crapola out of me.
DC> Try my ex who tells my son to moderate(?) a problem by hitting
DC> his step-sisters. Great solution, if you want to raise a
DC> group of bullies.
Sure. Just yet another loop in the great cycle; violence begets
violence and such will continue until the Earth is an ashen cinder.
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Education
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:38:09
EID:ff93 222294c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd376f
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Education at Glen Todd .. and
all hell broke loose.
JS> First, let me describe two incidents that happened in public school
JS> and that infuriated my sister. First, my nephew was given some sort
JS> of problem about something that started at 3:45 pm, whatever it was
JS> took 20 minutes, so what time did it finish? Answer, and show your
JS> work. So nephew does this, adds 45 and 20, gets 65, add the 5 carry
JS> the 1, 3+1=4, therefore, 4:05 pm. Right? No, marked wrong!!!!!!
JS> The public school powers that be have decided that teaching "base 60"
JS> is too complicated for third graders to understand, therefore they
JS> will not teach this. (My sister has already taught my nephew this
JS> skill at home.) As a corollary, since they have decided not to teach
JS> "base 60" to third graders, they *have* decided to teach: "You can't
JS> add time." And they repeat this over and over, like a mantra or
JS> dogma.
Sheeish.
JS> My sister talked to the teacher about this. "What do you mean 'you
JS> can't add time'? Of course you can. And you know you can." Teacher
JS> responds with B.S. about third graders not being capable of
JS> understanding "base 60," therefore they *have* to be taught "you can't
JS> add time." Therefore, nephew was wrong, since "you can't add time."
JS> (!)
JS> BTW, to add to the irony, nephew is gifted and the class is supposed
JS> to be the public school's version of a "gifted" program.
Har. What happened, did third graders get dumber since I was one?
I remember being taught how to "add time" at least by that grade.
JS> Second incident, kids are assigned to write a short story for school.
JS> They are told, however, that they cannot have death or bloodshed in
JS> the story, as these are against school policy, or "school
JS> inappropriate" in educationese jargon. So my nephew, not being
JS> stupid, simply changes the story he was planning from being about
JS> people to being about robots.
JS> Both of my parents have died in the past 3 years. My dad died in
JS> August. My sister is concerned that my nephew will be able to cope
JS> with his grandparent's deaths. So she was furious that the school has
JS> decided that the subject of death is "school inappropriate."
Sorry to hear about your parents. Must be tough to lose them both
at once.
As for the "school inappropriateness" of the story, well .. ever
have to take the exercise where the teacher says he'll give you a
scenario bit by bit, and you have to write a story based around what
he gives you? It starts off with "You are standing on a path in a
forest", and you have to write, describe what the path looks like,
and where you go .. and so on. I remember taking this in college.
I decided to set fire to a cabin we "encountered" in the scenario.
Went in, found some kerosine, and Earned me an A- or
something like that, and a strange look from the professor. This
was for an English course taken in conjunction with Classical
Animation; I suppose he was used to people with twisted senses of
humour. Hey, I got bored with just walking around and looking at
things.
My SO took this in high school. He's even more twisted than I am
and, when it came time for the writer to encounter a cliff, he
decided to jump off. He had gotten bored with it, too, and thought
he'd display it symbolically. The school put him in therapy with
the school counsellor for the remainder of the year. Yeah, it was a
Catholic school. :)
--Wolfie
"Sean. A two-legged rat. Can't even use 'im for hunting
practice. Passing laws to protect him is like passing laws to
protect cockroaches."
--BlackAdder
lupus Red Talon Ragabash
Fostern, New Hope Sept, England
... "A king, eh? Well, I didn't vote for you..."
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 252/140 270/101 275/429 280/1
SEEN-BY: 280/169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278
SEEN-BY: 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92
SEEN-BY: 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 733/1 2401/0 2424/10
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: horsepitals
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:31:10
EID:4132 22229be0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32cd3770
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Ronald Vass cast horsepitals at Curtis Johnson ..
and all hell broke loose.
RV> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them;
RV> One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them;
I want this inscribed on my wedding ring should I ever get hitched,
(minus the semi-colon) but somehow I don't think it'll fit.
--Wolfie
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... McGod's - Have it my way or go to hell.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: DARK BIBLE #4
|Date: 03 Jan 97 10:17:00
EID:e384 22235220
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> That is the correct method used to determine the winning number. But
RH> it has no bearing on whether I select the winning number.
JB> No, it does not. It has direct bearing on QG's ability to
JB> _move_the_balls_ so radically that quantum level probabilities are
JB> ignored and physics is violated.
QG does not influence the balls, He influences my choice.
JB> Now, how do you connect your selection with the event? Are you
JB> assuming a) that God "looks forward" in time and then manipulates your
JB> brain chemistry? (Refer to the anti-Bible accuracy argument, in which
JB> brains influence --and/or 'overwrite'-- QG-transmitted stuff). Or
are
JB> you assuming QG's direct _control_ over the masses (of the balls)
JB> involved? (Which counter-argument is presented above).
Neither. He influences the flow of electrons in a random number
selection device at the time I purchase the ticket. A quantum level
event.
JB> Not the point. You have to address either Its future-prediction
JB> ability, with an event that has not yet occurred and cannot be
JB> controlled (the start/stop if the tumbling of the balls), OR you have
JB> to address Its ability to 'tell you' sensibly which numbers to pick.
I am assuming that QG is outside of time or rather is present at all
times, past present and future, thus knows the numbers "now".
JB> Please clarify.
JB> Of course not. That's not the point. The test has to be as simple
as
JB> possible; given the QG we're testing for, handing you million$
JB> involves a whole lot of other possibilities, any of which --or all
JB> together-- may be not what the QG wants happening. IOW, use the First
JB> Engineering Principle: KISS. (K_eep I_t S_imple, S_tupid!)
That is entirely possible, but it makes for an easy "out" for you.
"Well, yes, the test failed, but QG didn't want it".
JB> the conditions of the Hypothesis itself. If the events asked for are
JB> not quantum-probabilistically controllable --concatenatedly evolvable
JB> by means of chaos theory 'initial conditions'-- then the hypothesis
JB> being investigated is NOT MINE. You asking for ping-pong ball control
JB> in a window of a few seconds violates both conditions.)
I will agree that the time constraint does not fit your definition
since controlling the machine is a very narrow window. But the action
required should be possible even for a God as weak as yours.
JB> Does, indeed apply. Not only is the event not in your personal space,
JB> but also it is _extremely_ ANTI-probable. We're not testing QG's
JB> POWER; we're testing Its _existence_.
?? Of course it's unlikely, it has to be, to be convincing. What do you
want, for the sun to rise tomorrow?
JB> Which mind-computer has the necessary information to future-predict
JB> what you would be most likely to do with it; you, or the QG? (*grin*)
JB> YOU certainly don't have prognostication-computation skills involving
JB> _everyone_ around you that might be touched by your "help"
JB> --presumably the brain-reading QG does. (Besides (*grin*), what is
JB> "help?" Maybe your "help" would not be, to a Mind trying to evolve
an
JB> entire planet.... Recall that I don't envision QG avoiding leading
JB> people into pain, misery, or accident.... The "Big Picture"
JB> --whatever that is (and I have a few ideas what it is)-- is what QG
JB> would logically be interested in. After all, It probably has a
JB> certain "enlightened Self- interest....)
No doubt, which is why I don't see Him worth bothering with. I suspect
His interest lies in some future development of Man, not with us poor
individual specimens.
JB> (*grin*) On the other hand, try it your way. If it works, give
JB> something to my publications effort....
?? Which is? Kiddie porn?
RH> You're just being selfish. Think of the good you could do with great
RH> wealth. You're saying "I got mine, too bad about you" in effect.
JB> What good? How would I know that MY choices to influence the course
JB> of human events by means of "great wealth" would be "good?" How do
we
JB> know what this proposed Mind of the Universe WANTS? Wouldn't _that_
JB> be by definition what's "good" in the broad sense? Is giving to the
No, IMHO, not necessarily. Maybe in His terms it would, but not necessarily
from our (humanity) perspective. His "good" may involve "our" destruction
for all you know.
... The floggings will continue until morale improves.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: DARK BIBLE #4
|Date: 03 Jan 97 10:35:00
EID:e384 22235460
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Curtis Johnson <=-
JB> OK, let's discount the whole event. I would then have to do this
JB> probably a dozen times or more, avoiding maxima and timing for the
JB> median, to justify claiming a highly radical departure from
JB> statistical "ground" (zero standard deviations). But the important
JB> thing about the Hypothesis (and the experience) is the timing and
JB> placement. One needs not only ask how many meteors are average, but
JB> also how many meteors should be expected from
JB> _demanding_them_at_a_specific_ time, say, within a five-minute window,
JB> and further, one would have to ask what the probability is for
JB> repeating this a few times.
That's a definite improvement. When I was running the Prediction
Monitoring and Evaluation Program for the USGS I faced just this
sort of problem. Someone would make a successful prediction with
odds of 1 in 1000. I could not say that such a person had any
predictive ability. I needed a complete history of all their
predictions AND several such successes before I could agree
that they had such ability. (no one did, BTW)
JB> IOW, I'm going to agree with you that this event of mine "proves
JB> nothing" (I already knew that), but not that it does not coontribute
JB> to the data-set needed. It's going to take many more "honest
JB> investigators" than just me, to determine the quality and frequency
of
JB> this "providence"-forcing Hypothesis.
The problem here is that you will only hear about the successes
It's like Uri Geller going on national TV and asking anyone who
experiences something unusual during the show to contact him.
He gets maybe 500 "hits" and claims success. Nonsense.
JB> Indeed. Now, how do you distinguish the two hypothesized effects from
JB> each other? (*grin*) Deliberate tests --"appointments with destiny"
JB> (little 'n')-- seem to be warranted. The power of unusual coincidence
JB> is great, upon the magic-minded human race, but HOW MUCH coincidence
JB> is TOO MUCH coincidence? My test(s), I propose, can help answer that
JB> question, and, being founded both on the idea that the Universe is
JB> inherently "intelligent and self-aware," and on _hardware_science_,
JB> can also perhaps provide "good reasons to believe" that it is so.
John, one of the early psychologists (whose name is lost to me) made
a study of such things. It seemed highly significant to him, but
was not. It was only because he was paying attention to them.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: *would* be?
|Date: 04 Jan 97 01:04:56
EID:ec9c 22240880
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7326e5d9
REPLY: 1:3603/210 110f0c4a
On Dec 26 15:21 96, ROBERT CURRY of 1:3603/210 wrote:
AS>> [...] the Norse conviction that DYING IN BATTLE IS THE WAY TO
AS>> PARADISE???
AS>> That would be a REAL nightmare.
RC> Spelled: I S L A M.
I wonder why we dont hear the paganoid witchfreaks squealing
about how "they stole that from us, we had it first"?
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Star Goat loves each
|Date: 04 Jan 97 01:15:12
EID:35ad 222409e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7326fe22
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A59226B
On Dec 20 15:49 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/62 wrote:
JB> I like computers. But I'm not a programmer and don't want
JB> to be one. I understand enough to be able to fix most things
JB> that can go wrong [...]
Then maybe you can tell me what I have to do to get your page to
load. My browser chokes on that chorus line of dancing chickens
(or whatever those animated things are supposed to be).
I never get any further than the word "IT".
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Heathens
|Date: 04 Jan 97 01:18:28
EID:1c29 22240a40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 73270d09
REPLY: 1:229/622 32c45f62
On Dec 27 23:41 96, Dave Hamilton of 1:229/622 wrote:
DH> For instance we now know what causes lightning. We used to think
DH> it was God.
Um.... we know what lightning IS... but, a great number of hows and
whys of it still remain a mystery.
Ever seen any of the films of thunderstorms taken from orbit? We're
not as sure as we used to be about lightning being a strictly local
affair. It tends to occur in synchronized waves that can sweep
across the entire continent. Why? We dunno... (Pretty damned sure
it aint God, though.)
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Glodbreg bettered!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 01:26:10
EID:f093 22240b40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 73271822
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2c521035
On Dec 28 10:21 96, Mimi Milstein of 5:7107/21 wrote:
xx> Mr Hilter and his simply frinds never went to collage.
xx> Contriversial, you say! No way... That psot of whining
xx> two year holds couldn't disceren an honest salughter
xx> from an epidemeic dop pile.
Hehehehe....
The above quote has three words in a row that are spelled
correctly and in the correct order. Can you find them?
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: IN PASSING
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:09:00
EID:9965 22229120
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A674379
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Granted, but it still begs the question you haven't yet
MH> adequately answered: If God wants us to believe he exists, why design
MH> a universe that appears completely ungodded? Why hide? I no longer
MH> accept that he hides so our allegiance to him will be unforced; the
MH> stakes are too high (in orthodox theology) for him *not* to do
MH> everything possible to persuade us. That is, a divine hard-sell would
MH> not be a forced choice, but it would save more souls than hiding ...
MH> and if the atonement of Christ is effective only for those who
MH> believe, mercy would demand as hard a sell as necessary.
AS> I think I SORT of answered this in another post. Let me try it again,
AS> on a slightly different tack. Perhaps you're right that if orthodox
AS> Christianity is right, that belief is necessary for the atonement of
AS> Christ, a hard as sell as necessary would be demanded...
AS> But there's an if there. And you might consider an alternative. One
AS> that even has scriptural basis, in Paul saying the conscience of the
AS> nonbeliever is their advocate before God.
I think you hang too much on that passage. For one thing, it doesn't
seem to be universally applicable:
I believe you're talking about Romans 2:12-15:
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the
law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For
it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but
it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed,
when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by
the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have
the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written
on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their
thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)"
It seems to apply not to those who have heard and rejected the gospel,
but on those who have never heard and yet still obey "the law." In any
event, it is an *awfully* thin reed to build a major theological point
on, especially when it has to stand up against:
John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed
in the name of God's one and only Son."
John 5:34-40: "Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention
it that you may be saved. John was a lamp that burned and gave
light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. I have
testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the
Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the
Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself
testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his
form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the
one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think
that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that
testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
Note in the above that Jesus himself is specifically tying belief in
him to salvation and life.
John 6:28-29: "Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the
works God requires?' Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to
believe in the one he has sent.'"
Again, the same point made.
John 10:25-28: "Jesus answered, 'I did tell you, but you do not
believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but
you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to
my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal
life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my
hand.'"
If his sheep shall never perish, the implication is that those who are
not his sheep will perish.
John 11:25-26: "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the
life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe
this?'"
Again, same implication.
John 20:31: "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus
is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life
in his name."
Life is tied to belief.
There are plenty of other examples in the synoptics; I chose to quote
John because you believe its author to be an eyewitness. So here you
have several unambiguous statements from Jesus himself, recorded by an
eyewitness, saying that only believers are saved. In light of that,
can you really place so much confidence in your reading of Paul, not an
eyewitness, and based on such a vague reference?
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Welcome to the state of T
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:36:00
EID:6f62 22229480
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A67437A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Richard Smith <=-
ML> Which I find somewhat curious and altogether very
ML> unusual. Might it be that we're being set up for a
ML> grand Hardyesque jape?
RS> I've considered that as well . . . or a Hardyesque/Schroeder
RS> jape . . .
MH> Oh ye ... er, we ... of little faith! :-)
RS> Is that a non-answer?
LB> :) why not? that was a non-question!
This is developing into a non-thread. :)
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: me
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:40:00
EID:1ea9 22229500
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A67437B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Ronald Vass <=-
RV> Since the Great God Be_LIE_v_ER Hardy, has so called change his tune,
RV> with out a reason given. It's a toss up as to bait or fishing. At this
RV> point it's, still at that fishing stage. With no bait on the hook.
AS> Well, you can believe what you want, Ron. I know who to believe about
AS> some things. I believe Mike.
RV> As far as any in the modem land knows, his wife, may have taken a turn
RV> for the worst and he's pissed off at his god. Many things in life can
RV> change, and do. How that change is taken in life , is
RV> another point all together. What Mike 'The Pea Brain' believes and
RV> what happens to 'pea brain', in the long run, only time will tell.
Why don't you talk to me about it, Ron? And why don't you knock off the
unwarranted insults?
... E=MC Hammer.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:43:00
EID:1bbd 22229560
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A67437C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
RC> with: Michael Hardy
RC> without: Jesse C. Jones
MH> Hmmmmm .... I THINK you just told me to go to hell.
MH> How does this square with Jesus telling Peter he should forgive
MH> those who wrong him "seventy times seven?"
LB> Its a very shaky faith that cannot even handle a question
LB> without having to toss aside the questioner for daring
LB> to ask it.
RC>
RC> But Lynda, don't you realize that *you* are the one who is terribly
RC> insecure? Not Brother Jesse -- he was only here to combat the evil,
RC> and since Michael became tainted by what is supposedly evil (give him
RC> a little time and he'll be making pacts with demonic forces, right?),
RC> that means Jesse is supposed to treat him like the enemy.
I've already joined ranks with the Rice Brothers, apparently. They're
demonic forces, right? :-)
... Hester Prynne got an A for adultery. I barely made a C-minus.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: enochban.rit
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:45:00
EID:f0c0 222295a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A67437D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Mimi Milstein <=-
RV>> As far as any in the modem land knows, his wife, may have
RV>> taken a turn for the worst and he's pissed off at his god.
RV>> Many things in life can change, and do. How that change is
RV>> taken in life , is another point all
RV>> together. What Mike 'The Pea Brain' believes and what
RV>> happens to 'pea brain', in the long run, only time will
RV>> tell.
MM> You really are a vicious jerk, aren't your?
DW> The scenario Ronald describes has occurred right here in this very
DW> echo in the past. I forget the guy's name, but he came in as a fundy.
DW> His wife suffered from some condition (in fact, I seem to remember it
DW> being MS, the same as Michael's wife has). He left for a few months,
DW> then came back markedly less sure about the entire God deal. His loss
DW> of belief was caused, in large part, by his wife taking a turn for the
DW> worse. He later regained his belief, left, and hasn't been back since.
That was Johnny McKinney. My reasons are entirely different, despite
the surface similarity.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: NEVER BE GODLY
|Date: 03 Jan 97 19:20:00
EID:d89c 22239a80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A67437E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Michael Hardy <=-
RS> Nor does Al remember being weaned . . . yet I bet he doesn't
RS> start grabbing breasts when looking for a snack . . .
MH> Yeah, I'm sure he has a much better cover story than that ... ;-)
DC> You seem pretty brassiere of yourself.
MH> So? You wanna make something of tit?
DC> I noticed a halter in your typing of your reply. Perhaps you
DC> need someone to underwire it and keep them separated. Cross
DC> my heart!
Well, that gives me a lift.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: God Al and Rape a Child
|Date: 03 Jan 97 19:25:00
EID:4336 22239b20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A67437F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Ronald Vass <=-
AS> No to my supporting, and no to that's how God wants it.
RV> Rape of kids, has much evidence to support the fact it happens, the
RV> floating of an Axe Head is very vage. God, Your God supports the axe
RV> Head bit < going by the book of lies>, Your God wants kids to be rape,
RV> again going by the . You also have varify that you
AS> Now, THERE's an interesting assertion. Where does God want children
AS> to be raped in the Bible? Specifically.
Judges 5:30-31:
"'Are they not finding and dividing the spoils: a girl or two for
each man, colorful garments as plunder for Sisera, colorful garments
embroidered, highly embroidered garments for my neck-- all this as
plunder? So may all your enemies perish, O LORD! But may they who
love you be like the sun when it rises in its strength.' Then the land
had peace forty years."
RV> support Your God, therefor you have to support the rapeing
RV> of the kids. It's Your God, It's Your Book, It's Your Belief. It's your
AS> ???? Ron, the whole point of the Bible, of forgiveness, of salvation,
AS> is that many things happen that God does NOT approve of. Obviouisly
AS> there wouldn't be a Ten Commandments if there weren't things He was
AS> warning us AGAINST.
What about all those times God not only approves, but *orders*, the
utter slaughter of every person in some enemy city or other?
... My friend studied animal husbandry, until they caught him at it.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: This just in...
|Date: 03 Jan 97 19:36:00
EID:e724 22239c80
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A674380
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Marty Leipzig <=-
ML> Carl Sagan died today from pneumonia complications after a
ML> two year bout with myelodysplasia.
ML> Anyone care to tell me about a kind, just and loving God?
AS> If you were God, who would YOU rather have close to you?
ML> Sounds rather reminiscent of Billy Graham who spoke to Korean
ML> War widows that "God needed to populate heaven".
ML> That hollow ring I hear is not tubular bells.
AS> Not really, Marty. A hope, rather. I hope somewhere Asimov and Sagan
AS> are comparing notes. I hate to think they really ended.
"Carl? Carl? Is that you?"
"Isaac? Yes, it's me. Where are we?"
"Heaven! Do you believe it?"
"No! I must not be quite dead yet."
... On Dr. McCoy's tombstone: "I'm dead, Jim."
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: APOLOGY TO JUDITH
|Date: 03 Jan 97 19:40:00
EID:10aa 22239d00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A674381
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> The person who has the biggest right to be pissed at you is Mike. I
JB> went back and looked at the date and time on it. You posted the
JB> description in detail BEFORE Mike had given me permission to use it
on
JB> my page.
JB> While the description did make it's way here after he said ok...what
JB> if Mike had refused to allow it to be used?
AS> Then my apologies to him, also. Although I had real reason to think
AS> he was not displeased with his picture. As I am not with mine.
I was not displeased, for private viewing. However, I might have not
chosen to let her put it on the web. You didn't know at the time
of the post what my choice would be.
And why's your apology to me buried in a message aimed at Judith?
... This score just in: Deep Space 9, Babylon 5.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Welcome to the state of T
|Date: 03 Jan 97 19:42:00
EID:5ff0 22239d40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A674382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
RS> I've considered that as well . . . or a Hardyesque/Schroeder
RS> jape . . .
LB> :) If that's so, then I'm in on it...
LB> (walking away, whistling...)
AS> So Mike and I would have you BELIEVE....
hehe ... I've got her just where she wants me.
... The more I chew on, the less I swallow.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Bill Forseth
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 03 Jan 97 19:43:00
EID:7932 22239d60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8A674383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Bill Forseth to Nate Cookson <=-
NC> A guess on your part.... The FACT remains it is one of the most
NC> published books in the history of mankind. And one of the MOST
NC> READ.
BF> Hustler is a big seller, too. Does that lend credence to it?
BF> Popularity has a poor claim on truth.
You mean those women aren't *really* naked? :-)
... Pull the other one.
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Why God?
|Date: 03 Jan 97 20:07:57
EID:417b 2223a0e0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2cdaf1c0
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32cc6d42
Hello Al!
Al Schroeder wrote in a message to Chris Green:
CG> Mr and Mrs God? With God children?
AS> Actually, I was thinking of either/or, but I can discuss
AS> Zeus/Rhea or Odin/Frigga.
^^^^^^^^^
Why do you pair Zeus off with his mom (and mother-in-law)?
Hera might get miffed, and daddy Chronos a bit uneasy.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: "sucking up"
|Date: 03 Jan 97 07:42:22
EID:9c72 22233d40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2ed
AS> Not at all. EVOLVED barbarians, maybe. I'd even object to barbarian,
AS> but I suspect you and Glen would relish such a description.
GtP> Right you are. BTW, have you seen the newest Darwin fish. The fishie
GtP> has a wrench in it's front paw and the word EVOLVE inside. Too cute.
Nope, not yet. I'll keep an eye out...
And back to the "barbarian". I think Glen would enjoy being the subject
of
a Frazetta Conanish cover, with a battle-axe, halfway steeped in gore, and
at least one adoring, scantily clad female clutching at him....
He just strikes me as that kind of guy...of course, you would know
better...
... Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Jan 97 08:36:37
EID:aeec 22234480
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2ee
RH> Even if it isn't up to you, explain the logic. One minute before
RH> death, repent and go to Heaven. One minute after, repent or not, go
to
RH> Hell.
May have something to do with the different states there. Here, we are
creatures of Time, and subject to Change. There, we would be creatures of
Eternity; and maybe, there, in some ways our choices are eternal.
AS> trick, and how the forgiveness of Judas Iscariot was pivotal to it...
RH>
RH> That's another thing. Judas's role was essential. Why punish him for
RH> it?
Hitler's role was essential to the creation of Israel...I have little
doubt that the nations of the world would not have given a dispossessed
people their ancestral lands unless the overwhelming guilt of the
Holocaust hadn't impelled the United Nations. Should we thank, Hitler,
then, for the creation of Israel?
Now, Judas was not as bad as Hitler. But he did betray Jesus for the
wrong reasons, I think. "These things must come, but woe unto him by whom
they come..." It is clearly implied that Judas, among other things, was
dipping into the till. We can argue his motives for betraying Jesus, and
it might have been for the noblest of reasons, but the end product was,
a
good Man (whatever you might think Him) was betrayed into the hands of
authorities that whipped Him, tortured Him, mocked Him, and led him to an
agonizing death. Jesus didn't show up at the High Priest's house and go,
"Here I am." He and the disciples were deliberately avoiding the
authorities.
Peter's betrayal was hard, but it was a mere renouncing. Judas' DID
something. And whatever the motives, it resulted in a good Man going
through agony.
In a way, it is an indictment AGAINST fanaticism. It is Caiphas who
goes,"It is good for one man to die for the good of the people". It is
Judas who betrays Jesus, perhaps for noble, if fanatical reasons. One
thing the Gospels show us that one Man matters...and sometimes the most
humble and despised can be that one Man. That death and torture for the
individual DOES matter, even if done for the noblest reasons. (For a lot
of us, if we thought of it, would think Caiphas, at least, was
right...that it was better that one man die, rather than the Romans bring
down their military machine on Palestine.)
... I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: anthropic altruism
|Date: 03 Jan 97 09:25:02
EID:ca09 22234b20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2ef
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Al Schroeder <=-
MH> ...further thoughts on the anthropic principle and altruism ...
Okay.
MH> It strikes me that if the God of the Bible existed, his reality
MH> should be manifest in the universe ... miraculous events inexplicable
MH> by natural science should occur in public ways at least once in a
MH> while, for just one example. (They did in the Bible.)
Sort of like the universe appearing out of nowhere?
MH> Instead, God has been forced into a steady retreat:
I would dispute that. Since He was always protrayed as the ultimate cause,
we are just finding out more links in the chain TO that cause.
MH> Theist: God is clearly proven by A.
MH> Atheist: Actually, A is now known to be caused by B, a natural
MH> process. T: OK, but God is the designer of B, with the intention that
MH> A should be the result.
MH> A: Well, B is a natural consequence of known physical forces, C.
MH> T: Fine, but God intentioned C, to bring about B, to cause A.
MH> Etc., until the theist must find evidence of God in some set of
MH> esoteric "anthropic" constants, and in rare human traits like
MH> altruism.
The constants aren't "esoteric". They are very, very, basic to the way
the laws of nature work. There seems to be no reason these values, rather
than another is selected. They are, more than anything, "givens" in the
universe, uncaused (as far as seeing a previous prior cause). More than
just about anything else, they are at the interface between the "ground
of
being" and the set of phenomena that make up the world. It is EXACTLY the
point, if there was any hint of "design", that one would LOOK for it.
Contrariwise, if there was any hint of randomness, we would see it there.
If the constants could be varied to a large degree, and a universe where
intelligent observers would evolve could happen, it would argue strongly
that our being here is just the most probable state, no big surprise, etc.
And that "rare" human trait nevertheless remains the focus...not just
for Christianity, but for many religions. The Golden Rule is not unique
to Christianity, but common to may cultures.
MH> The thing is, everytime science has faced a black box it can't easily
MH> fill, apologists have rushed to claim that *there* is evidence of
MH> God. Trouble is, so far it's always been just a matter of time until
MH> the puzzle of the box has been solved.
"The god of the gaps". Yes, but not always. The randomness of quantum
mechanics...I don't know of anyone who claims that its randomness is a
result of God's free choice. (Although I do know of one person who takes
the Copenhagen interpretation of such to the nth degree, and says the
universe can't exist without someone to observe it from outside...i.e.,
God.) And where we should focus is on what is the closest we can see to
things eternal...the constants. And I find it VERY interesting that it is
exactly there that the strongest case can be made...
Another indication is the orderliness of the universe. I don't doubt
that we know probably as little as one ten-thousandth of one-percent of
how the universe works. And that there will be a lot of surprises. But
just because we have just read one sentence of a thousand-page book, that
one sentence would suffice to tell us whether the book was random (i.e.,
a
mass of typos thrown off by an eratz printer) or had an intelligent
author. We may not know the ending, or how the plot will turn. But we
don't doubt the intelligence in that single sentence, or that an author
produced it. But the proof of what the author intends may be a lot closer
towards the end...
Some will argue that even chaos has laws and patterns. And isn't that
remarkable? That even chaos has rules and order within it? Now, if the
universe was a matter of a random process, that is not what one would
expect. But if it is a product of intelligence, that is EXACTLY what we
would expect. I have problems doing things totally at random...I usually
find there is SOMETHING influencing my choices, some chain of skewed
reasoning. Einstein said, paraphrasing here, that the most inexplicable
thing about the universe is that it IS explicable. That the universe is
understandable and yields patterns we can comprehend.
... It's a miracle that curiosity survives formal education - Einstein
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Archived HolySmoke
|Date: 03 Jan 97 09:24:28
EID:2dbd 22234b00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f0
MH> fuck fu <-------- 1.5 times, best I can do for precision. :-)
AS> Is that anything like kung fu? I hate to ask what you break boards
DC> Perhaps, but the exercises necessary for the task really brings
DC> smiles to the faces of the participants.
AS> And unlike, oh, say wrestling, when you throw them on the mat, it's
AS> the BEGINNING, not the end...
DC> It's a sport that makes it fun to be the throwee to tha mat as well
DC> as being the thrower at times.
Hmmm....how does one get a job of being a referee at this sport?
And imagine what the OLYMPIC team must be like...
... Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|Date: 03 Jan 97 09:48:53
EID:48f3 22234e00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f1
AS> Sure. The accumulated knowledge of mankind. But perhaps some
AS> religious thinking is also part of that.
DC> No need for that, other than as a curiousity of our superstitious
DC> past.
AS> Not necessarily; if nothing else, thinking about such things helps.
DC> That's what I said, Al.
Hmmm. I thought the "no need for that" was objecting to that. Sorry.
AS> Hawking acknowledged a dept of Augustine in trying to think about
AS> things before time began, for instance.
DC> Did Augustine show what happened before time?
No. He said thinking about what God did "before" time is singularly
useless...that "before" is a product of time. That asking what God did
before time was created was a useless question. Hawking applied that sort
of thinking to his "no boundary" proposal and said talking about what
happened before the universe was created was similarly useless.
... You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you freak.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 03 Jan 97 10:03:03
EID:3f33 22235060
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f2
AS> I don't think He does. Again, there is the passage in Romans that
AS> indicates that for nonbelievers,
DC> You can out think your god, yet allows that to happen?
Allows what? Nonbelievers to be saved?
AS> before God. The only significant improvement in Christianity I see
is
AS> the
AS> claiming of forgiveness even if you do screw up badly, if you are
DC> Your dogma statse that if you screw up, just a bit, you go
DC> to hell.
Yeah, but He judges about the "little bit". We're not sure (at this point)
whether he's a lenient judge or a strict one.
AS> sincere. Yes, it does say, "None come to the Father except by
AS> Me"(Jesus)
DC> By your interpretation, I'm consigned to hell. Isn't that just
DC> so nice of your god. Makes me want to go out and join his religion,
DC> just to consign others to the same hell.
I thought I explained it better than that...the passage in Romans seems
to
say that one's conscience can be their advocate before God, even if they
are nonbelievers. I.E., it sounds like a nonbeliever who lived a fairly
virtuous life would also be able to gain Heaven. I'm not worried about
you, Dan.
AS> that He is the final
AS> arbitrator of who has access to Him? It can be read either way.
DC> Unfortunately, the dogma gets too far in the way. You see it,
DC> but will not acknowledge that fact.
Well, what you see as dogma, I perhaps see as more "rules of the game".
... Why do Chinese philosophers always try to Confusius?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: BACTERIA AND EVOLUTIO
|Date: 03 Jan 97 10:06:16
EID:b535 222350c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f3
AS> Yes, it does say, "None come to the Father except by Me"(Jesus) but
AS> does that mean we must believe in Him first, of just that He is the
AS> final arbitrator of who has access to Him? It can be read either way.
RH> Do you know of anyone offhand, other than yourself, who reads
RH> it that way? Especially in the CofC.
Cordwainer Smith (Paul Linebarger) read it that way, I believe. I know a
lot of other believers who personally read it that way, nobody you ever
heard of. Including some CofCers. (Now, if you said any ELDERS or
PREACHERS of the CofC who taught that, I might be in more
trouble...)
... I've got a mind like a... a... what's that thing called?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 03 Jan 97 10:54:24
EID:56e6 222356c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f4
AS> Yes. But those prayers are not always answered. (Indeed, if they
AS> were answered infallibly all the time, people would treat it more like
AS> sorcery than prayer...a demand, not a petition.) And rarely in a way
AS> that circumvents natural law.
MH> Although, Jesus guaranteed that they would be.
Clumsily put above by me. Let's just say that they are not always answered
in the affirmative. Sometimes dumb prayers are ignored due to disastrious
consequences. A child can pray, no one ever die, ever...without thinking
what a misery life would be, if insects and microbes couldn't die either,
or how quickly our planet would get overpoulated until life was a living
hell.
MH> The question is, are prayers *ever* answered? David Worrell tells of
MH> a girl he dated who attributed receiving some money to the power of
a
MH> pagan ritual. A Christian would call it an answered prayer, an
MH> atheist would call it a happy coincidence.
Well, SOME Christians might call it that too.
MH> Any evidence that Christians, or any other group, has a higher rate
MH> of such things than everybody else, suggesting divine favor?
Yeah, at least for some medical things. They're trying to "double-blind"
the experiments so as to eliminate any placebo effect (i.e., the person
being prayed for doesn't know if he's being prayed for or not.) But I
don't think they've broken it down by religion yet. More like, those
prayed for SEEM to be doing better than the obverse.
MH> I have always thought of prayer more as a meditative exercise to put
MH> us in touch with the divine, not an opportunity to present a wish
MH> list. I may begin practicing it again, even through my agnosticism,
MH> and see if I still benefit from it.
You probably will, especially if you always thought of it that way. I see
it more a matter of communication, even if sometimes one-way...hey, how
you doing, thanks for existence, thanks for the wife and kids, they need
this, this, and this, this person is sick, please help them, this person
is going astray and fooling around on his wife, please wake him up to what
he is doing, people are starving over here, help us to get people
motivated to help them, things like that....it goes on that way for a
while...then, a sort of quick, well, God, I screwed up here, here, and
here, sorry, forgive me for being such an SOB, all the above I've prayed
all subject to your will, not mine, if you think of a better way to do it,
or know reasons why it should not happen or should be done in a different
way, by all means do it. Thanks again, let me say what a ball it is being
alive, thanks for the lovely complex universe you made for us to delight
in and puzzle over, thanks for a LOVELY universe, have a nice day,
goodbye, talk with ya later.
Informal and direct. People at church, when they call me to lead a
prayer, always like it because they get the feeling I'm TALKING to
someone. I'm liable to go, "Lord, thank you for the beautiful sunset
yesterday...good job! Thank you for pretty girls, good fellowship, and the
joy in kids' faces. In Jesus' name, Amen." Or in a more thoughtful vein,
"Lord, someday, in a billion billion years, I hope you will allow us to
be
a place where pain and trouble and evil are just an elusive memory, a
painful beginning to a wonderful existence, as we now regard
childbirth...in Jesus' name we pray, Amen." That sort of thing.
I figure God gets enough of the respectful, boring prayers. I think He
likes being talked to.
... Jesus lefthanded? Sure! He was perfect, wasn't he?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CONSTANTS
|Date: 03 Jan 97 11:03:18
EID:da9d 22235860
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f5
AS> Pretty good speculation, however. Model universes that seem to be
AS> quite workable. That doesn't mean there are other universes, of
AS> course. But it does raise a question why these constants are selected
AS> rather than others.
RH> Loaded question. "Selected" implies a selector. Not evidenced.
"Chosen" which was my other, was WORSE. How they are arrived at, as
opposed to other values...is there a more neutral term?
AS> And he can also be refuted by reason. IF he bases it there. I think
RH> Not so far.
It's gotta be more logical than what you're refuting.
AS> there should be two components to anyone's belief (or for that matter,
AS> lack of belief)...one reasonable, one emotional. Even most of the
AS> people here who reject Christianity reject it for what I think God
AS> would consider the right reasons---because they feel the doctrine of
AS> hell is cruel, or dislike the sometimes bloody history of
AS> Christianity. Purely emotional, but the right emotions. Only a few
AS> have posted in here steeped in hate for
AS> others (like that bigot who used to post from Memphis).
RH> Agreed. I reject it for those reasons but I would not describe it
RH> as emotional. Rather, the claims of religion are illogical.
Design is not a priori illogical.
... Imagination is more important than knowledge... - Einstein
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: Dander raising
|Date: 03 Jan 97 11:58:12
EID:d138 22235f40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f6
GT> That's because he chose to pick not on myself or on Gwenny, but on a
GT> child who doesn't even participate in this echo, Suzanne.
Yes. That does indeed make a difference. Even in flaming, there are
limits, insofar as common decency is concerned. And insulting one's kids
crosses it for me...when the kids are in no way involved.
... Too many people confuse free speech with loose talk.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: DARK BIBLE #4
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:01:06
EID:eafd 22236020
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f7
AS> Roger, may I raise an objection? Interference. If John's theory is
AS> true, if his quantum-God is influenced by requests, surely yours would
AS> not be the only such request. We don't have a lottery in Tennessee,
AS> but I'm sure in places that have it, MANY people would pray to have
AS> the winning number. So something prayed that many times for many
AS> different outcomes would probably cancel each other out...
AS> (Hmmm...and apply that to wars...)
RH> Ah, but THEY are praying to the wrong God, you see.
The frightening thing is a lot of time, they are praying to the SAME God.
... Aphrodite does it with everyone! (And respects them in the morning)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Dark Bible #4 [2]
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:20:37
EID:c882 22236280
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f8
JB> Another poster points out that I should have _repeated_ the
JB> experimental "appointment" many times.... I didn't. Once was
JB> impressive enough: regardless of the "general frequency" of meteors,
JB> to have one AT the appointed time was powerful-effective. I don't,
JB> however, make too much of this one. It's the constant, consistent,
JB> ongoing daily "little ones" that impress me.
It's a good quick test, though, and I'm sure impressive as all get out
when you proposed it to 'God' months before and see it realized. Maybe not
scientifically conclusive, but certainly personally encouraging.
AS> God loves you, John. Although I've seen it happen the other way,
AS> too...people giving up something, like adultery, suddenly thrust into
AS> a job where they have to train a lot of young women, for instance.
JB> Oh, sure, and on some of my most motivated (to quit) days, Camel
JB> Filters are two-for-the-price-of-one. Once, I was even closer to
JB> quitting, and the dang Camel _distributor_ was in the store, overheard
JB> me about quitting, and offered to give me a FREE PACK. (Devils
JB> everywhere....*grin*)
Low-level quantum parasites feeding off the larger quantum nonlocal God,
no doubt... Question. In your theory, do you feel that, for instance,
the course of evolution might have been (subtly!) influenced by your
quantum-nonlocal God. I could see many places where even such a
relatively feeble being (as opposed to an omnipotent God of say, the
Judeo-Christian stripe) where such a being MIGHT meddle, if it had a mind
to...I'm thinking of, for instance, the fourfold increase in brain size
(if I am remembering rightly) in primates leading to hominids in the last
ten million years. That is rather unusual in evolutionary terms, a faster
change than many.
JB> But consider: how do we know that's God "testing us," instead of God
JB> merely choosing to _use_us_ after we've quit? That is, how do we know
JB> the adulterer was being tested, from the adulter being now Safe To Use
JB> in that application now that he had chosen righteousness? (*grin*)
JB> Maybe God doesn't so much say "Oh, _Yeah_??? We'll _see_..." as he
JB> does "Ah. Finally. Now that you're safe to use there, go do that."
JB> (*grin*) Maybe he always takes us at our _word_.
That's an interesting idea....
AS> We'll see. I wonder how many people here WOULD be honest enough to
AS> make the experiment? And how many instances it would have to have to
AS> be
AS> statistically valid?
JB> Oh, I would probably "buy" a consistent 60% above chance. After all,
JB> we're dealing with _coincidences_; an effect merely consistently above
JB> "pure chance" (50/50) ought to be enough to give the antitheist pause,
JB> the atheist and agnostic interest, and the hidebound religionist some
JB> reason to examine my Hypothesis and re-examine his own....
Sort of Rhine cards for God...
JB> The interesting thing about people here is that, IF the test is
JB> validly consistent with my hypothesis, sufficiently improbable, and
is
JB> done _privately_, with no one around but the tester and the event
JB> itself, it'll work it's mind-altering effects on him whether he can
JB> "explain it" or not. One would think that people here have to be
JB> capable of being honest WITH THEMSELVES. Being dishonest with others
JB> is much easier than being dishonest with oneself, in a "formal"
JB> testing situation.
JB> Peace.
Too true, John. Peace to you, too.
... For once I'm at a loss for words. Mark down the date!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Faith & Works
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:28:29
EID:4630 22236380
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2f9
DC> But, I doubt it. I think he left so that he wouldn't have
DC> to face the truth and that he could live happily ever after
DC> in his blind obedience to his masters.
MH> No! He left because I asked him a hurtful question that his
MH> Christanic masters couldn't answer! It's my first kill, damn it, and
MH> you're NOT taking it from me! :-)
Mike, that was pretty good, but it's "Christanic DEATH CULT masters". I'm
sure you'll master it soon...that way we can keep up the
Hardy/Schroeder/Bustilloz jape...
Wait a second...I DID put this in private email, didn't I, instead of on
the echo.... didn't I?
... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: FALSE CHRISTIAN SCUM
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:30:00
EID:5714 222363c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2fa
-=> Quoting Becke Boyer to Al Schroeder <=-
BB> Al, thank you...you, at least, were right on the money with you
BB> comments...
RH> Damn, Al, you finally did something right!
About TIME... I was beginning to wonder...
RH> Happy New Year, BTW.
Same back atcha.
... Captain Hook died yesterday of jock itch.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: free will
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:10:22
EID:10aa 22239140
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2fb
MH> How about on an individual basis? Say a skeptic says: "I would
MH> believe in God if he would appear in my house and talk to me for one
MH> hour." If the skeptic's eternity matters to God, and if the sentiment
MH> is sincere, why would God not do it? There were theophanies in the OT.
MH> Why not now? (Openly, I mean, not God in disguise.)
Well, I can think of a couple of objections. The God-interview idea is
fine, except I don't think it would work in a lot of cases. How would you
distinguish such from personal hallucination? Even if it convinced YOU,
it
would be useless at convincing someone else. Suppose God appeared to me
in
a shining light last night and dragged me to the seventh Heaven, where we
observed all of the universe as a flat, small, two dimensional plane about
the size of a table top, etc. Or I saw sexless angels where the joy of
their existence shone out of their eyes...or demons who would open their
maw and each small point on the inside of that "mouth", on closeup, turned
out to be a human face, whose torment was experiencing immortal evil
ripping through their souls as they are made part of the demon...this is
the LAST place I would talk about it. It would convince no one because I
could not show it was not my hallucination. I KNOW a guy who regularly
gets visions of God, and supposedly an angel told him that AIDS was a
punishment sent from God. I think his visions have more to do with his
previous lifestyle...the sixties were VERY good to him, drug-wise...rather
than anything touching the Infinite.
AS> No; and this is where the analogy breaks down; because we're dealing
AS> with an omnipotent being. If He interferes there, why should He stop?
AS> He allows evil to exist for the same reason He allows our evil to
AS> exist...petty cruelties or other infractions that I, at least, have
AS> committed. To a perfect Being, all would be repugnant to Him,
AS> although not equally repugnant. But if He interferes with them, then
AS> our freedom is but a hollow sound.
MH> Then what was he doing in the Bible when he brought down a city's
MH> walls, freed Peter from prison, etc.? Did not the jailers have free
MH> will? If you're a Bible-believing Christian, you have to accept that
MH> God *can* and *does* manipulate things ... he could prevent a rape
MH> without being overt about it. Your rationalization works in
MH> isolation, but you're defending a theology derived from the Bible and
MH> failing to account for certain important claims in the Bible.
No; I am distinguishing, as I think God distinguishes. I don't think, for
instance, Peter was saved just for his own sake, but also for the sake of
the early church, which could have been easily extinguished by the death
of a few key leaders. And that in turn builds on a Jewish faith that is
dependent on the Hebrew nation being alive at a certain time, etc. If the
message of Jesus is that anyone can be saved by calling on and asking for
God's forgiveness, and that the Crucifixion was (for reasons we at present
cannot comprehend fully) necessary for the salvation of people's souls,
then Jesus' sacrifice, and the Hebrew culture
that in turn produced Mary, would have literally saved millions or
billions of souls over the years. I'm not saying miracles are not done;
I'm saying they are done ONLY for the greatest of reasons. That might be
why we see more miracles at the founding of the Hebrew nation than we did
later...to the point that in one of the Maccabbees they think the "time
of
the prophets"(i.e., miracles) is over. And if Jesus' death and
Resurrection is the climax of God's intent for the human race, we would
expect to see less direct intervention as time goes on, away from that
event.
AS> Also be aware that your repugnance to the action is based on
AS> instinctive morality that has its roots in Him. Many people have
AS> devised ethical systems without reference to God, or gods, such as
AS> Kant's categorical imperative, etc. But it is all justification after
AS> the fact. The very morality that rejects it as cruel has its roots in
AS> God. And God sees mankind abusing mankind. He does not interfere,
AS> because He thinks that the freedom to choose outweighs the abuse that
AS> is possible if we are free. You may disagree. But the very morality
AS> that you are using to judge such has His roots in Him.
MH> That's a belief. The atheist would say that our human ideas of God
MH> reflect our natures, natures arising naturally. We create God in our
MH> own image.
We imagine a perfectly good God, but imagine Him in our own image? Who
sacrifices Himself for us for nothing? A very idealized image of
ourselves, at best.
... Posted by my evil twin, Skippy.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: GET SPECIFIC
|Date: 03 Jan 97 13:11:03
EID:ec57 22236960
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2fc
GT>> Yes -- the god of ISRAEL!! NOT by any stretch of the imagination
of
GT>> any of the rest of the world or of those of us who are not of Semetic
AS> Because they believe that Yahweh didn't just create the Semites. But
GT> Although (if you take their sacred book at face value) he himself
GT> identified himself as the god of the sons of Abraham, and a while
GT> later his avatar/prpohet/whatever Jeshua specifically denied having
GT> any interest in or responsibility for any non-Jew. It wasn't until
GT> Saul of Tarsus showed up on the scene that we started hearing the
GT> universalist noise. Who you going to believe; Jeshua or Saul?
Well...both.
You're perfectly right in that Jesus said He was sent to save "the lost
sheep of Israel" and called Gentiles "dogs", which is more offensive than
the English appears. However, he ALSO makes the analogy of the vinyard,
saying that if the stewards rejected the owner of the vinyard, they'd have
to bring in new stewards. When Jesus was preaching, it was still iffy
whether He might be accepted by the Jews as the messiah. By Saul/Paul's
time, it was pretty clear that the Jewish establishment would NOT do so.
So the latter applied, although Paul makes sure to mention that the Jews,
too, will earn reptentence, in Romans, eventually. (I hope that didn't
come out anti-Semitic...such was not my intent, just reflecting some
changing attitudes. Paul, after all, was a Jew, as was Jesus, of course.)
... Error, no Keyboard - Press F1 to Continue.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: GET SPECIFIC
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:11:37
EID:ec57 22239160
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2fd
AS> It made some sense in the first century, when it really WAS news. It
made
AS> some sense in pagan lands where they hadn't heard it before. But when
AS> people have already heard it, and rejected it, a new approach is needed.
AS> Not a hard sell, but a gentle invitation, freely given and if rejected,
AS> rejected without rancor.
GT> That IMO should _ALWAYS_ have been the approach, presuming that it was
GT> necessary at all. It certainly would have garnered them greater
GT> respect and honour from the rest of the world than the 'torture and
GT> murder for Jesus' types have, and from what I can see the current
GT> evangelical crop bears a much greater resemblance to the latter than
GT> the former. Granted, their weapons now are generally fear,
GT> disinformation, and psychological manipulation rather than fire and
GT> the sword, but the general approach hasn't changed.
Well, my wife is fairly anti-abortion, for instance, but she has little
respect for the people in Operation Rescue, who are religiously motivated.
She'll say, "The first century Christians didn't picket the places where
the midwives did abortions. They changed their OWN lives...and changed by
quiet example." She has a point. The histrionics of the present time is
a
symptom of age, not the vigour of youth (When Christianity was young, that
is....)
AS> Well, to those who believe people are in danger of hellfire if they
don't
AS> believe, they DO believe they are saving people from harm. But it's
much
AS> more distant, and can cause people to turn away in disgust.
GT> Ah, but from my POV that is not only unevidenced but quite
GT> self-serving. What they're saying, stripping out the theological
GT> loaded words, is along the lines of ; "We're justified in barging in,
GT> taking over your life, and telling you what to believe and how to
GT> think because we're saving you from a danger that only we know about,
GT> that we can't demonstrate now or ever, and that threatens _you_
GT> regardless of the fact that it's on;ly part of _our_ theology. In
GT> your example there was a very clear, present, and demonstrable harm
GT> intended, and the intention of the protector was to prevent that
GT> specific harm, not to take control of the child's life for all time
to
GT> come with threats of a hypothetical future harm. See the difference?
Sure. Just explaining the mindset. I try not to do it myself.
... I yam Popeye of the Borg. Prepares ta beez askimiligrated
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Goodbye
|Date: 03 Jan 97 13:42:20
EID:9fbe 22236d40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2fe
AS> I think I better make a FAST last request...I wonder how quickly
AS> Cindy Crawford and Courtney Cox can be contacted, and how sympathetic
AS> they would be to a dying man's last request....?
DC> That all depends. I'll ask them, as they are here in my bunker.
DC> Any thing you would like to say to them?
Sure. For a good time, call 615-352...
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: MOORCOCK echo
|Date: 03 Jan 97 13:52:25
EID:9936 22236e80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda2ff
AS> Haven't seen it yet. I put requests on the sysops of both major BBSes
I
AS> use to add it to their message lists...
SQ> Have 'em keep hammering away. Frankly, I don't think we're getting
SQ> out of Region 19. :-/
You should have responses in this packet.
... No sense in being pessimistic--- it won't work anyway.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: More grist from the web [2]
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:26:57
EID:ebc5 22239340
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda300
AS> An excellent point! But then, if one chooses not to live a morally
AS> upright life, and not to ask for God's forgiveness, what would you
do
AS> with them?
DC> Your religion consigns them to hell. Makes me want to join, not.
LB> *sigh* "morally upright" by the standards of WHICH era of
LB> christianity? They're going to spend eternity in hell for not
None. God's.
LB> conforming to the mores of the culture into which they found themselves
LB> born?
They are? Why?
LB> And as for asking God for forgiveness...just why ISN'T asking 10
LB> minutes AFTER dying as good as before? Or a year. Or a billion years...
It may have something to do with being "in time" and being "in
eternity"...
LB> Why in GOD'S NAME does Al think that after an eternity, an unrepentant
LB> soul would continue to be unrepentant? Or that the victims of such
a
LB> person would still be holding a grudge?
I think one may wait a loooong, looooong time, before an inmate of
Auchswitz will see Eichmann without a shudder.
LB> I see an image here of his heaven....that has me continuing to cower
LB> at the thought of coming face to face with my abuser...so that he must
LB> be 'quarantened' or snuffed out altogether (Al's worst fear, that...)
It is?
LB> to avoid causing me discomfort. what that SAYS is that an eternity from
LB> now i am still going to be overcoming the effects of that abuse. And
LB> worse...leaves no room for the fact that, like many if not most
LB> abusers, my ex was himself abused.
I'm saying that we shall still be ourselves, even "perfected"...whatever
that means. There will be a continuity of self. Otherwise, saying WE have
an afterlife is a contradiction. Something else is having an afterlife.
LB> I have thoroughly removed the idea of hell...any notion of hell...as
LB> being workable in the context of a theology that promotes a merciful
LB> caring omnipotent god. The more I think on it, the more I find that
LB> heaven is as unworkable, if it is supposed to be some sort of endless
LB> streak of 'bliss'.
Hmm. Well, I guess Jesus saying "fear not he who can kill your body, but
instead he who can destroy your body and soul in hell", was just a
mistake, perhaps? Or better to lose your eye than to have your eye and
body cast into hell, was just a metaphor, albeit a singularly graphic one?
It seems like Jesus was totally mistaken on that, perhaps, in your view.
Even if one views Jesus as a great teacher, that is what Jesus TAUGHT.
It sounds like any reference to a heaven of bliss would be unacceptable
to you also.
Serious question, Lynda. How do you keep from constructing a religion of
your own bias? That is basically "pick and choose" by Lynda? You take what
you want, and reject the rest...and in all honesty, all of us do it a
little...but how do you hold to any integrity to the original? Would you
respect someone who picked out selected statements by Washington to make
him a communist, or selected statements by Lincoln to make him agree with
Newt Gingrinch, ignoring the rest?
And finally...what good is your afterlife? If it is not---at least
potentially...an eternity of bliss...then it is basically more of the same
we have experienced in THIS life. What's the point? What's to keep wars
from happening in eternity...will God have to stop them all before we
start?
Then we're back where we started...
... There is no dark side of the moon. Really.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: SUPERSTION
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:52:20
EID:92f9 22237680
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda301
AS> I dunno. Rotting bodies aren't fun to be close to, and spread
RH> Overnight? I don't think so, Al.
Friday night to Sunday morning. I think in a hot climate, even over a
short period of time, they can get pretty ripe, pretty fast. But I admit
I
don't have any PRACTICAL experience in that...
AS> disease. I could see sealing it in a Metropolitan area, and then later
AS> undoing the seal...
RH> Wasn't in a metropolitan area. A remote garden, outside the city.
Good point.
RH> No, just helping make the prophecies come true. He wouldn't see it
RH> as a fraud.
AS> ???? Surely He would know He really didn't die?
RH> True, but he went thru the forms. Like a play...
But Resurrection of the Messiah WASN'T part of the play. That was an
unexpected bonus, not backed up in the messianic prophecies, unless you
read it REAL selectively.
AS> Now, refresh my memory. What was the drug supposed to be to fake
AS> death? I read the PASSOVER PLOT literally decades ago (I remember
AS> listening to "Jesus Christ Superstar" at the same time....for the
AS> first time).
RH> It was "a drug". The evidence suggests a drug since he "died" almost
RH> immediately, whereas the intent of the liquid was to refresh the
RH> victim.
And yet was able to yell, "It is finished"? Well, perhaps. Still sounds
as odd as the drug used in Romeo and Juliet, or in bad Fu Manchu novels.
... If you see any misspelled words it HAS to be line noise.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: superstition two
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:24:51
EID:ee1c 22239300
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda302
MH> You're missing it. The point is, it doesn't matter how many
MH> disbelieved it. Perhaps 90 percent of the people disbelieved it. All
MH> it took was a few believers ... there's no indication, even in the
MH> Bible and church history, that Christianity was anything more than one
MH> cult among many prior to Constantine. Christianity is still alive
MH> today probably only because of Constantine.
I've seen estimates that the Christian population MAY have reached as high
as ten per cent just before Diocletian's Great Persecution. I agree,
though, that if Constantine hadn't adopted Christianity, it would have
been bad for the Christians. But it had lasted nearly three centuries by
then, and given no more Great Persecutions, I think would have survived.
It was growing, slowly but surely.
AS> Then they would all match much MORE than they do. The variations
AS> between (at least) the Synoptics is about what we would expect from
AS> different eyewitnesses or sources (just as a police officer knows
AS> every witness' story will differ in some degree), and the Gospel of
AS> John would vary MORE. We can't have it both ways. If they all relied
AS> on a single source, they would match up more.
MH> Not at all. That would be true if there had been a conspiracy, but
MH> that's not what I'm suggesting. In fact, the accounts diverge
MH> precisely because they all stem from a single original tradition,
MH> which evolved along different lines as it was re-told among various
MH> groups, until it was finally written down four times and alluded to
MH> several more. Whether the original tradition itself is history or
MH> legend is what has to be determined.
Yes indeed. Or a single original event rather than a tradition, is what
is
to be determined, shall we say.
MH> The gospels are far closer to agreeing about the details of Jesus's
MH> trial and execution than about his Resurrection ... suggesting that
MH> the mundane events have a base in real history, while the more
MH> fantastic ones may not.
Odd that it would convince Paul, writing just twenty years later, and at
one point a profound skeptic, of its authenticity. Or do we doubt Paul
existed, or his own account of his life, about being a former enemy of the
church?
AS> It's possible. But IF it's the case, then why don't the accounts jibe
AS> more accurately? We're not talking five hundred years or so for
AS> different variations to develop, as we are with Arthur. Even with that
AS> example you gave me not long ago where such things developed so
AS> quickly (that guy who later converted to Islam) I wouldn't expect two
AS> different traditions to grow that quickly.
MH> But they *did* Al, even if the event really happened. The different
MH> traditions are undeniably real.
Right. But does it stem from DIFFERENT EYEWITNESSES TO AN EVENT--whom
would be expected to notice different things from the others...or does it
stem from different variations of a single document or tradition. Once it
becomes a codified story, certain turns of phrase would show influence.
Yes, three of the gospels you might think would be from the same
source...possibly...but the fourth has startlingly different terms of
phrase and chronology.
... Onward and backward! We must look busy.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: the real world
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:32:54
EID:2c4e 22237c00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda303
AS> And that worked SOOOOOO well, didn't it?
MH> What, God made a mistake?
No. It may have been needed to start the nation of Israel. It also may
have been needed to convince others of how close proximity to God and
miracles doesn't necessarily change others.
AS> You might look at that little period as an experiment. To see how
AS> Man, of his free will, would react to close proximity to God. (Even
if
AS> God knew the answer beforehand, it showed US.) And it was not a
AS> cureall. Anything but. It's as if we are scared and HAVE to deny if
we
AS> get too close. That it is too overwhelming, and one has to close off
AS> the evidence of one's own senses to hold onto their sanity.
MH> Hmmm ... so did God damn his lab rats after they responded to the
MH> stimuli?
No; He died for them instead.
MH> The reality is, his hiding doesn't make for any greater belief than
MH> his presence.
Are you sure? Christianity has spread (assuming for the moment that
Christianity is the correct way of belief) from one end of the globe to
another. But if the miracles did happen to the Israelities, it only
convinced them, it seems.
MH> That's a non-sequitur. Real altruism may not be a survival trait, but
MH> it's also rare enough that it causes no overall harm to the species.
MH> No God needed to explain it; it's a quirk.
AS> Then it's an odd quirk that runs through all the species...and all
AS> our highest ideals embrace that "quirk". Very few societies don't
AS> agree that selfless acts are holy, noble, and to be desired, no matter
AS> how rarely they are carried out.
MH> I'm not sure about that. We all admire the occasional self-sacrifice,
MH> but we also all sympathize greatly with those who can't bring
MH> themselves to make such sacrifices ... because most of us wouldn't.
But which do you idealize? The Thomas Mores, the Martin Luther Kings, or
just the rank and file? Which inspire us? I submit it is the Gandhis, the
Mores, the Joan of Arcs, Martin Luther Kings who most inspire us, and we
most aspire to be like.
AS> They have indeed. Nazi Germany comes to mind. But that is the
AS> exception, not the rule. Even in primitive societies, the mad are
AS> often regarded as "holy" and left alone.
MH> Again, though, I think evolution explains it. Compassion is a
MH> survival trait ... it may lead to some degree of individual sacrifice,
MH> but it is good for the species overall.
I think it is good in a deeper sense. But keeping the deficient alive
makes no evolutionary sense, even though it appeals to all which is most
human in us.
... Please ignore this message. The author is insane.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Welcome to the state of T
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:34:30
EID:41ba 22237c40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32cda304
RS> I've considered that as well . . . or a Hardyesque/Schroeder
RS> jape . . .
LB> :) If that's so, then I'm in on it...
LB> (walking away, whistling...)
MH> You mean ... a Hardyesque/Schroederoid/Bustillozian jape?? Oh no!
MH> They're all DOOMED!! :-)
The Unholy Trinity.
... Half the truth is often a great lie. - Franklin
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:58:00
EID:e7cf 2223af40
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ da724c59
NC> Depends on what you mean by "evidence" my closed minded
NC> friend. There are historians outside of the Christian Church
NC> the wrote about Jesus and His death... None of them stated "He
NC> was the Christ" but they do give credance that Jesus did
NC> actually exist.
SS> I'll bet you can't name one.
NC> Ok, I'll name a few for you.... The Jewish historian, Flavius
NC> Josephus, who, was born around A.D. 37. Cormelius Tacitus
NC> (A.D. 112), a Roman Historian writing about the reign of Nero,
NC> refers to Jesus Christ and the existence of Christians in Rome
NC> (Annals XV,44). Seutonius (A.D. 120) In "Life of Claudius ,
NC> 25.4, and Lives of the Caesars, 26.2, and Pliny the younger
NC> in his epistles , X.96.
I see you asked someone. Now tell me, how much first hand credence
do you give to them? You note that Josephus was born at about the
time of the death of Jesus. He was also born quite a few hundred
miles away. Do you think he was talking about something he actually
knew about or was he making an offhand remark about something he had
heard about? We who majored in history have a thing about first
sources.
I don't think we need worry about the people who noted that there
was a new religion around that claimed to have a god called Jesus a
hundred or more years after Jesus death. While they certainly did
write that it means nothing about any truths about Jesus. There are
people in existence as we speak who have founded a Church of Elvis.
Historians writing fifty or a hundred years from now might well
write of that. Does that mean that Elvis was a God?
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
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|From: Chris Brown
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: not believing
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:17:11
EID:d48b 2223aa20
MSGID: 1:163/125.0 32cdbbfe
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 9d2a606c
PID: BWTG 3.11 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
This was tied to the rock that John Brawley threw at ROBERT CURRY's window..
JB> Then zero drinking is a degree of drinking, neither positive nor
JB> negative.
RC> Zero drinking is an *amount* of drinking, sure. But there's nothing
RC> alcoholic about having nothing alcoholic to drink, is there?
JB> Zero drinking is an amount of drinking? Why isn't zero alcohol (in
JB> the blood, say) an amount of alcohol? Why isn't zero alcoholism an
JB> amount of alcoholism?
That's what I'd like to know... being straightedge, I'd like to know how
I'm poisoning my mind with alcohol by not drinking alcohol.. this doesn't
make much sense to me.
... * <- Tribble . <- Tribble after a close shave
--- Helter Skelter
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Off topic??
|Date: 04 Jan 97 10:03:06
EID:2159 22245060
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2ce71900
REPLY: 1:261/1137.0 32cd282e
Hello Don!
Don Martin wrote in a message to Damien Wellman:
DM> Perhaps Heinlein's problem in this book is that the
DM> function the women fill is that of ardent followers. This
DM> leaves little scope for individuality.
I think the only entities Heinlein could describe with real
empathy were cats.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: Welcome to the state of T
|Date: 04 Jan 97 10:07:51
EID:3314 222450e0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2ce71902
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ fd8d1f78
Hello Sally!
Sally Springett wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
MM> As I have told you earlier, I am one of those who seem to have
MM> been born without any religious urge, and I do not dread to
MM> become 'nothing' at death.
SS> And I am another. Perhaps it's a function of our age? The
SS> 30s and 40s were not conducive to the creation of faith in
SS> the young (in the absence of outside pressure).
Could be, but I don't see things have changed much in younger
generation from the same neck of the woods I come from. Church
attendence is at an all time low, so low in fact that many
churches have started to take turns. Some are only 'open for
business' once per month in districts where 'the flock' can
reach several of them. Danish ministers are a kind of civil
servants, so they don't suffer economically - I guess they are
just spared having to semonize to the same 3 old ladies on
a weekly basis... now they have the chance of a huge audience
of 10, or even 12, every month.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: All
|Sub: The Alignment List 01/
|Date: 02 Jan 97 17:28:00
EID:96be 22228b80
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e44403f2
WHO'S WHO: THE ALIGNMENT LIST:
-------------
Name Location Alignment In the 'Smoke:
---- ---- ---- ----
Becke Boyer, Harrisburg, PA. eclectic Wiccan At least 3
nee Jones years, Since
1993.
Paul Boyer, Harrisburg, PA. I suppose I'm a I posted in
aka Gosseyne humanist, more or Fido HS from
less. A secular about 1991 to
humanist. I really 1993. Now in
can't call myself a #holysmoke
deistic Unitarian
since I don't feel
UU's anymore, and I
function day-to-day
as an atheist.
Lynda Bustilloz Southern Maryland chaotic unique 1 1/2 years
Marilyn Burge Portland, OR freethinker 4 years (I
guess
b'day12-28-38
Dan Ceppa NW of Nowhere, WA Slighty askew, Since birth
just because it
annoys fundys
Quentin Fai Lethbridge, Born again Since Spring
Alberta, Subgenius of '93
Canada, (Atheist)
Eh?
B-day May 4th
Mario Gonzalez Tijuana Mexico Atheist
Chris Green Liverpool, former agnostic 2weeks
Merseyside former mormon
United Kingdom now Non-deist
Gwenny the Pooh Woodland Park, CO Pooh Bear almost 5 years
USA
Dave Hamilton Newcastle Left of Xtian 1 yr
Ontario, Canada
Mike Hardy Mobile, Alabama former evangelical 2 years
Christian turned
Open-minded agnostic.
Jason Harmon New Prospect, SC, Atheist 1 year
USA
b'day 3/25/80
Roger Hunter Boulder, CO Atheist/Agnostic 1 ?
Curtis Johnson Bummermore, MD Raised fundy. Now: 1/2 year
Loose cannon with a
loose canon.
Marty Leipzig Houston, Texas Atheist of the ~5 yrs.
Novyy Urengoy, finest kind.
Western Siberia
Bukhara, Uzbekistan
Dalan Dzadagad, Mongolia
Villavicencio, Colombia
et al...
Don Martin Columbia, MD WOA 5-6 yrs*
I work in Baltimore as an editor and welcome the
opportunity to meet 'Smokers passing through. So far, I have
seen (and been seen by) J.J. Hitt, Lynda Bustilloz, Judith
Bandsma, and Curtis Johnson.
Let's do lunch!
Mimi Milstein Randburg, S.Africa Agnostic <1 year
Steve Quarrella Rowlett, TX USA Intolerant of idiocy Since its birth
Richard Smith Sacramento, CA Wiccan/Gwyddon 10 months
PeterTrussell, Manchester, NH atheist Lurking for
a
aka bnemesis year, now on
#holysmoke.
(Continued to next message)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: I'll be back...
|Date: 02 Jan 97 17:28:00
EID:0e06 22228b80
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5f85e80d
SQ>The Cannonball Run. The line David quoted is one from Dean Martin.
He and
SQ>Sammy Davis are driving across the country (in the race), dressed as
priests,
SQ>and when Martin sees Farrah Fawcett, he eagerly wants to bless her.
Later,
SQ>Burt Reynolds calls Davis "the Chocolate Monk." It's a corny movie with
an
SQ>all-star cast -- Terry Bradshaw, Mel Tillis, Roger Moore, Dom DeLuise,
Jackie
SQ>Chan, many others -- but it cures a rainy day for me. :)
The best part of that movie, IMHO, is the blooper reel at the end.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Is "anal retentive" hyphenated?
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Welcome to the state of T
|Date: 02 Jan 97 17:28:00
EID:f4a4 22228b80
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 22910c68
GTP>Heilsa, Michael!
GTP>While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
GTP>Michael say to Al:
GTP>AS>> Mike Hardy works at a paper. He might have some ideas...and he's
back
GTP>AS>> on the echo, in the agnostic camp.
GTP>MH> There's a camp? And me without my insect repellent ...
GTP>Of course there are camps. You'd like the pagan camp. The guys drum
while
GTP>the ladies dance around the fire in bits of gauze.
Or vice versa !
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Is this sodomy?" asked Frank, half in Earnest.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: [2/2 HOLYSMOKE
|Date: 02 Jan 97 17:28:00
EID:899a 22228b80
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4575435a
RV>LB> JJ> response to the slap on the cheek, except that of quoting more
RV>LB> JJ> scripture....What say all brothers and sisters?
RV>LB>Yes...lets leave. But don't leave. Let's just go...sort of. Maybe.
Yea,
RV>thatLB>the ticket.
RV>Both partys are the same person. point and node
RV>95.9% sure
I'd wondered.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Isaiah 45:7. God says that he created evil.-PS
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: goodbye
|Date: 02 Jan 97 17:28:00
EID:3488 22228b80
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org bedb2f4d
CJ>>> SM> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!" [d&rg]
CJ>>> JH> GOURDS! GOURDS! SQUASH HIM!
CJ>>> DC> GARRANDS! GARRANDS! SHOOT HIM!
CJ>>> ML> GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
CJ>>> EV> GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
CJ>>> ML> GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
CJ>>> JH> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
CJ>>> ML> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
CJ>>> DC> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
CJ>>> ML> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
CJ>>> DC> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
CJ>>> ML> GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!
CJ>EM>> GaAsFETS! GaAsFETS! AMPLIFY HIM!
CJ>RV> GROWLER! GROWLER! SHORT-CIRCUITED HIM!
CJ> GOPHERS! GOPHERS! FTP HIM!
GALACTOPHORE! GALACTOPHORE! MILK HIM!
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Isis Astarte Diana Magdalene Hecate Kali Innana
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Holiday Wishes:
|Date: 02 Jan 97 17:28:00
EID:974a 22228b80
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1de264e5
RS> Well, to hell with it. Let's all just get drunk and go
RS> naked. Where's my presents? Happy and safe holidays to you
RS> and yours.
Wonderful post, thank you, Richard.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Jesse Helms' ulitmate nightmare: gay tobacco farmers
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 02 Jan 97 17:28:00
EID:62d4 22228b80
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 9e39c421
NC> Trash it all you want, the truth is the Bible will be here long after
NC> you are turned to dust.
So will Dachau.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Invertebrates make no bones about it.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: NEVER BE GODLY
|Date: 02 Jan 97 17:28:00
EID:0fe3 22228b80
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 58c4d64c
DC>On (23 Dec 96) Michael Hardy got back to Richard Smith...
DC> RS> Nor does Al remember being weaned . . . yet I bet he doesn't
DC> RS> start grabbing breasts when looking for a snack . . .
DC> MH> Yeah, I'm sure he has a much better cover story than that ... ;-)
DC>You seem pretty brassiere of yourself.
That's a bra'd indictment.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Is "anal retentive" hyphenated?
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Quentin Fai
|Sub: Re: Billy "Liar" Wolff
|Date: 03 Jan 97 13:04:00
EID:2a1a 22236880
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ea26f078
QF>While puffing on a 'Fropstick, I felt Martin utter:
QF> MG> Doews anyone have any idea what is wrong with this guy?
QF>Perhaps he feels guilty after he masturbates?
Maybe he feels inferior because he can't figure out how to masturbate?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Isis Astarte Diana Magdalene Hecate Kali Innana
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Mine's bigger, damn you!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:53:18
EID:9f80 22246ea0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32ce6131
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018d1036
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> By the way... what do you think? Is he still lurking?
My -guess- is that he's still out there.
FR> Do we need to contrive taunts to make him come out of the woodwork?
Just continue the way things are. This is what is known as a "snipe hunt."
:)
FR> David R. pointed out that Jesse was probably looking for an excuse to
flee
FR> from his disgraceful exhibits.
I would agree with that.
sq>> BTW, I have posted twice lately in R_CATHOLIC. I
sq>> wonder if Stringfellow knows he's being observed.
He's using the old "My bossnode went down" excuse again. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Sorrowful Jones
|Date: 04 Jan 97 15:34:16
EID:8b53 22247c40
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32ce78ab
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e2566
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> He is very much like his Creationist brethren. Witness
sq>> his citation for the source of his deity's ethics.
FR> I didn't see any such answer. What _did_ he say? Or was it the messages
FR> where he demanded that his gods always had them?
Pretty much. It seems that -everything- HAS to have a creator, EXCEPT for
deities.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 04 Jan 97 11:59:50
EID:4a20 22245f60
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32ce9a96
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ d4cbcb3c
SS> Mr. Shreve, the remark was addressed to Mr. Cookson, a person who
SS> has demonstrated in the past that, while his grasp of certainty is
Ms. Springett, what exactly is the point and or reason for your
response? His grasp of certainty? Huh?
I've been here for quite sometime myself, although I lurk a great
deal, and rarely do I post in here.
Have a day, Ms. Springett.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: life 2/2
|Date: 01 Jan 97 14:10:12
EID:2a84 22217140
REPLY: 1:221/1503 32C743A5
MSGID: 1:229/622 32ca7340
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Ronald Vass to Dave Hamilton:
RV> The closer we are to each other , then the stronger they
RV> can effect us for good/bad effects. It's because of this idea i do
RV> believe in , I push tooth and nail to get Joyce to create a life
RV> and friends away from me. She got herself in a power play before and
RV> I don't want her to be in a form of another with me. So, I'm fakeing
RV> god like powers here, I've never claim perfections.
RV>
The closer we are, the more we feel what others feel. But how we
react to those things is up to us.
DH>> From whose perspective? If you are acting in their best interest?
RV> If i help someone to die and then later down the road found out it was
RV> a case of bills pileing up and a mood of depression. I don't think i
RV> would feel all that great for the help i gave. At the time it may
RV> have been in their interest, but would i be in the right to have help
RV> them ?
Hypothetical situations are worse than analogies. To try to make this
more real, consider the liklihood of someone being close enough to you
to ask you to help them with their final act. What are the odds that
this person would lie to you and lead you to believe s/he was terminally
ill when in fact the problem was being overwhelmed with life?
It would be more likely that such a person would bottom out in
major depression and the kind of help asked for would be anything
that would help with the emotional pain.
Still, if someone *really* wants to die, say because they didn't
get a tickle-me-elmo for xmas, then I say let them die. I have more
respect for their choice than for my obligation to help them, especially
if they don't want my help.
DH>> The problem with laws. Binary solutions for sets of problems.
RV> Too true. I lived for a while with a yes/no answer to life. I didn't
RV> pass the test all that well. I may not be doing any better now,
RV> liveing life, but the failures aren't quit so devastateing as they
RV> used to be.
It's frightening to have to think for yourself, realize you're
going to have to go with your best guess, then be willing to
take full responsibility for your actions.
Compared to that it's much easier to let the bible tell you what
do do. You never have to take personal responsibility for anything.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: life 1/2
|Date: 01 Jan 97 14:25:44
EID:2a74 22217320
REPLY: 1:221/1503 32C743A4
MSGID: 1:229/622 32ca781d
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
RV> Guess it's a reason i get so pissed off at some people ,
RV> I've not met any women that hasn't given it some thought.
Exactly. A woman considering abortion is more painfully in touch
with reality than a fundy will ever be.
DH>> Especially if they consider your interests and realize that you don't
DH>> do it for their personal inconvenience.
RV> What every happens, there will be some inconvenience , there's a
RV> slab of dead meat to get rid of.
True. And for children, they must live with a suicide in the
family. But the alternative is an intense time of pain and
suffering. We have come to tolerate this as 'normal' because
we've been taught to.
It used to be legal to kill/hurt your children. It isn't anymore
because we have changed what is acceptable. I hope to see the
day when letting people suffer isn't acceptable unless the
victim chooses to continue to do so.
RV> Another big item, is to get across to the young, is that they are
RV> allowed to feel this way, without tieing a whole bag of guilt along
RV> with the feeling.
Very good point. We seem to think that life should be fair and
free of pain. That would be very nice but it is not reality.
RV>>> The combination of both body and mind pain is a deadly combination
RV>>> anyhow. To finish the bodys pain, more so, when you understand that
RV>>> it will never leave off, ever. I know I couldn't handel it, why
RV>>> make a stranger have to handel it.
DH>> Only because you don't have the physical ability to administer your
DH>> own medication. No other reason. I've never heard of anyone who
DH>> wanted
RV> One of my big fears. To have a mind, trap in a body of pain and not
RV> able to release the mind from the pain. The other would be a liveing
RV> mind in a dead body, a Christian hell holds less fear then that
RV> posible happening which has happen, to others.
I made the same point to a thumper once and he responded by telling
me that God would make me a personal hell with my worst nightmares
in it just for me. They're fast, these fundies.
DH>> someone to assist them with suicide because they were *afraid* of it.
DH>> That would be grounds for Kervorkian to cut you loose as a patient.
RV> I've been raze big time in our local net, since i do support
RV> what Kervorkian has done for those who can be locked in a body
RV> of pain or a dead body. Then too, since it is something i would
RV> do within my own family, his support would be a given by me. If
RV> he steps out of bounds, then i would drop that support.
Sorry, Ronald. Lost you here.
RV> Here's a neat one, i myself had to face with my mother. Afer a few
RV> heart attacks can>> , a couple of years down the road, the fact of she feels just
RV> tried of liveing. The kids are more or less ok, and she feels Not
RV> Needed any more. Not depress, persay, just Dam Tried and wants to
RV> join Syd , where ever Syd is. How do you answer that, push
RV> for life? Because I and Rosemary are close to her and want to have a
RV> mother as long as we can lose>
RV> To guess my answer, the pain with my answer was greater then
RV> the pain i felt, when i held her hands as she died.
RV> We may not like it, but sometimes our answer will help someone
RV> decide to quit life.
After my father died, my mother was abslutely helpless. She
didn't know how to write a check. Couldn't stand living in
an empty house. She had never ever had a life of her own. I
took her to lunch a couple of times, and neither of us knew
what to say.
She lasted exactly one month after my father died, then had
a massive stroke and died within hours. She just quit living.
Now, everyone thought this sad but wonderful. I doubt anyone
would feel the same way if she'd had help dying. But who has
the right to stop a 75-year-old from calling it a day?
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 01 Jan 97 15:20:16
EID:ade8 22217a80
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32c7f26a
MSGID: 1:229/622 32ca8115
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Nate Cookson to Dan Ceppa:
DC>> And the TRVTH is what? Iron axeheads floating? A global flood?
DC>> Dead men walking? The sun standing still?
NC> The truth is something that has endured like the Bible has,
NC> should at least be considered.
And what about the truth that exists in reality? Gravity and such?
DC>> Yes, it's a book of "truth", if you are brain dead.
NC> Well, to "each their own" I always say.... Most of the "brain
NC> dead" ones are those that have closed their minds.
Not to mention their eyes, ears, education and lives in general.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 01 Jan 97 15:25:10
EID:44e2 22217b20
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32c8054e
MSGID: 1:229/622 32ca8211
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
NC> I've seen lot's of folks walk away after eating a good steak... I
NC> havn't seen any babies live after the vacum gets done tearing their
NC> arms and legs off...
How many fetuses have you witnessed that were subjected to this
treatment?
Can you answer a simple direct question?
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: God misses victims . . .
|Date: 01 Jan 97 15:29:18
EID:028f 22217ba0
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2c85ffb8
MSGID: 1:229/622 32ca8326
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
MM> Come on your guys, you have become sidetracked... sure the
MM> suspicion would have fallen on neighbors, music lovers, or
MM> even the choir master IF all the singers had been killed
MM> in the explosion - BUT THEY WERE NOT, and none of them
MM> admitted having received previous warnings.
MM> All I can think of is that it was Apollo, who, fed up with
MM> the ghastly racket, planted a posthypnotic suggestion the
MM> previous week at choir practice, and blew up the building.
This looks like the most promising theory to date. Guess we'll
have to go with it.
MM> Mr Staal may pay heed...
And if he continues to resist common sense suggestions, it
could be nasty.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 01 Jan 97 16:06:56
EID:5d54 222180c0
MSGID: 1:229/622 32ca8be0
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Carl Pollock to RICHARD SMITH:
CP> RS@> : So it's good that those children starve to death or are
CP> RS@> : burned to death, according to some Deity you know of? Isn't
CP> RS@> : that cruel?
CP> We may not know WHY it happens, how ever it MUST be for some greater
CP> good or it would not happen.
Ah, that life would be so simple in reality. Don't worry
little fella, the government will look after you.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Re: Pray Contest
|Date: 31 Dec 96 10:16:12
EID:672e 219f5200
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cb349a
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Quoting Carl Pollock to RICHARD SMITH <=-
RS@> Which God would that be?
CP>
CP> The God which BILLIONS around the world love and trust.
Okay, now, which one would that be?
RS@> Don't worry . . . we'll use brand new shiny prayers.
CP>
CP> That's not funny
Actually, it was kinda cute.
RS@> Why does your Deity want children to starve or burn to death?
CP> "And we know that ALL things work togeather for the good of those who
CP> love him, who have been called accrding to his purpose." Romans 8:28,
For the good of those who love him... and the rest can simply starve
and suffer? Nice.
... Department of Redundancy Department. Knock, enter and come in.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 31 Dec 96 13:35:56
EID:4400 219f6c60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cb349b
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 cd0733e9
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
RS> How about the removal of bans against recognising same-gender
RS> marriages as legally binding unions in civil law? Or will gay
RS> people of religion (and irreligion, who wish civil marriage) be
RS> still denied their religious and/or civil freedoms?
JS> Nope. Please post a duly recognized definition of marriage.
Why not provide a *useful* definition, since existing ones don't
seem to cover many of the new "options"?
I'd like to see line marriages included, personally. ;)
... "Vehemence is no guarantee of truth." - Isaac Asimov
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 31 Dec 96 15:05:36
EID:5fb7 219f78a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cb349c
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 19fea35b
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DR> #1) "Belief" in evolution is irrelivent: it is an
DR> observed fact, not subject to "belief."
JS> Show me the 'observation' where man appeared.
Not necessary to demonstrate that evolution occurs.
... He was so crooked you could use him to pull corks with.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 31 Dec 96 16:18:10
EID:ac77 219f8240
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cb349d
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 0834e366
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
RS> You have a better chance of getting some rough 'n' ready sex from
RS> the Blue Oyster bar than the local cop shop :) :)
JS> Yeah, like I go there with my wife (on vacation) to find rough n ready
JS> sex. get real, will ya?
Have you asked her about the idea? You never know... ;)
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Mutations Harmful (b)1
|Date: 01 Jan 97 14:01:08
EID:0527 22217020
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cb349e
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32c883e3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
AS> Laurie. It's one thing to talk about individual variation within a
AS> species. But if you think the most intelligent beings on the planet
AS> don't have the highest brain-to-body ratios, than think again.
Hmm? I was under the impression that there were, indeed, larger
brain-to-body ratios, and that where "intelligence" came in (eg
chimps, humans, dolphins, etc) was when the brain-to-body ratio
was close to a certain average - too far either way led to
lessened intelligence.
This is not correct?
... Chocolate arboreal marsupial bioluminescence? It's cocoa-koala light.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Rant Wars with "Commie Su
|Date: 01 Jan 97 23:57:02
EID:913b 2221bf20
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 61a4fc3d
MSGID: 1:229/622 32cafa51
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Katherine Wintersnight to Fredric Rice:
KW> Sean and Sue are having a shouting match--the sentence fragment was
to
KW> illustrate a tongue in cheek reference to the similarity of Sean's
KW> howls of 'Commie Sue' to Jimbo's frequent use of that title towards
KW> others.
Ooo, yuk. I had never made the connection. Sean may go off the
deep end occasionally but at least his brain is in use. Jim Staal's
brain has been safely tucked away out of risk from what I've seen.
I've never seen him use it.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Traditional Christian wea
|Date: 02 Jan 97 00:00:14
EID:0984 22220000
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2c521033
MSGID: 1:229/622 32cafacf
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Mimi Milstein to Judith Bandsma:
MM> Yes, I have eaten fresh home-made pasta - in a friend's house
MM> - and she is as proud and enthusiastic as you seem to be.
MM> Sorry to admit I still find it rather blah on it's own - about
MM> as exiting as 'a nice bowl of oatmeal porridge' :-)
Hey, watch it! Where I live, at this time of year porridge is
attractive. It's food AND heat.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Glodbreg bettered!
|Date: 02 Jan 97 00:08:00
EID:14e2 22220100
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2c521035
MSGID: 1:229/622 32cafc60
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Mimi Milstein to Judith Bandsma:
MM> A week worth of quotes from the great man made this
MM> construct possible:
MM> Mr Hilter and his simply frinds never went to collage.
MM> Contriversial, you say! No way... That psot of whining
MM> two year holds couldn't disceren an honest salughter
MM> from an epidemeic dop pile.
Gee, thanks for that. I have to go now. I have to spend
an hour with the Oxford English Dictionary and clean out my mind.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Darkness
|Date: 02 Jan 97 15:28:50
EID:5fb5 22227b80
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 041c959e
MSGID: 1:229/622 32cbd77b
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH>> Sadly, yes. In most of civilization, one must obtain a license to
DH>> drive a car but need know nothing to raise children.
KW> Why do you think that particular truism has been reduced to
a
KW> cliche?
It seems to stem from the assumption that because it is physically
possible to produce children that the ability to raise them must
exist. No end of parenting advice is available from grandparents,
siblings, and the good old bible.
What actually drives people to produce many children is probably
a combination of many factors, but social approval has to be one
of the biggest.
DH>> It seems we are hardwired to collect positive feedback from primary
DH>> caregivers as an essential mechanism in the process of growing up.
DH>> If it isn't there, we're broken.
KW> I've often wondered if various religious groups apply this
KW> deliberately or if it was stumbled on by accident. Once carefully
KW> broken, most people will mindlessly lean on their 'support', never
KW> once summoning the courage to mend and grow on their own. Some are
KW> so badly broken that summoning courage isn't even possible for them.
True. My wife used to work at a street-level counselling center.
Many of the cases they had were listed under 'religious abuse' and
given a debriefing similar to the techniques used for post-trauma
symptoms.
It occurs to me that membership in such a club relieves one totally
of any responsibility whatsoever. No one needs to own up to consequences
for actions if those actions were following orders. There is a
built-in mechanism for forgiving those that occasionally slip and
make some choice without help from the book.
But at some level, reality must seep in, because these people are
utterly infested with guilt. I submit this implies that a human's
natural state is self-determining, relying on social support for
input and advice but not for complete control.
People are just not growing up.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE
|Date: 04 Jan 97 16:41:44
EID:31b4 22248520
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32ce8871
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e2567
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> They threaten to pray for many of us, but how many REALLY do it?
FR> Good question. I wonder how we could find out.
Either they don't do it (my bet is on that one), or they do it and get no
results.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jones wins this round
|Date: 04 Jan 97 18:51:42
EID:062b 22249660
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cea71a
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e2568
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR>> Did you see the movie "The Cable Guy?" When they're fighting in the
sq>> I heard it was something of a waste of money. Has it yet been
sq>> released on video? If it's making the rounds via satellite,
sq>> we could pull it in that way.
FR> It's on video, yes... cost a buck to see so it's not too much a waste.
We'll have to pass tonight, as we're headed to see '101 Dalmations.' Funny
how I haven't heard any "Quarrella deVil" jokes from Mr. Jones. That was
the -rage- 20 years ago. :)
FR> And yes, my sister is still a rabid Mormon, pumping out babies without
a
You should go into MORMON and mention that. I'm certain they'd be pleased
to have a Star Trek tie-in somewhere. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: The first!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 18:53:22
EID:6647 222496a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cea767
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e2569
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR>> Wrong thinking will be punished. Right thinking will be rewarded.
sq>> Now THERE'S a good one!
FR> That was the FIRST!
Always one of my favourites, although obviously for years I had to watch
it via "The Menagerie." I got it the day it was released on video tape
(although I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing). If
only I could get the full colour version that I have occasionally seen in
the stores. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 02 Jan 97 12:25:38
EID:3367 22226320
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32ccf26d
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 29fc2077
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Carl and Dan were killing time yakking about Pray Contest:
CP> By the way, are you a athiest or a thiest? If so, what denomonation?
DC> I am the Spiritual Head of the Atheist Church of the One True God.
That would be the Goddess of Atheism, no?
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... "Unleash the atheists! Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!" - PS
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:32:05
EID:c245 22236400
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd409d
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 be5d41b5
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and John were killing time yakking about 'First Cause' Crap:
JB> Zero is of category: 'number.'
JB> Zero alcoholism is of category: 'alcoholism.'
JB> Zero hair is of category: 'hair.'
JB> Zero belief is of category: 'belief.'
LB> Excuse me, but what does drinking or not drinking alcohol have to do
LB> with alcoholism, at all? Not everyone who refrains from drink is a
JB> What??!!
You heard me, bait-boy. ;)
LB> non-drinking alcoholic.
LB> Not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic.
JB> So? Alcohol ingestion is _required_ for alcoholism....
Is it? I'd tend to think that there are people who have never had an alcoholic
drink that are alcoholics...would have problems from the first drink on.
Addictive personalities find an outlet for addiction whereever they can.
Or do you think that there are no 'alcoholics' in Moslem countries where
the
substance itself is difficult and dangerous to come by?
JB> .....and, as an alcoholic myself, I do not trust people who "drink"
JB> and say they're "not alcoholics".... That's a classic.
That is because you see the situation through your own experience. For a
large
part of the world, alcohol is not a drug but a food. Wine or beer is served
with meals as a matter of course. Do you see every person having a glass
of
wine with their dinner as being an 'alcoholic'? Is there any reason to
suggest that in those countries where alcohol has not been mystified and
glamourized as it is here, there is a huge increase in the number of alcoholics?
LB> AlcoholISM and the ingestion of alcohol are two entirely separate
LB> things.
JB> Well, obviously not _entirely_.... *g*
Ingestion of alcohol is required to manifest the more direct symptoms of
alcohol, sure. But to meld them together as closely as you are is like
indicating that because SOME people are allergic to strawberries, everyone
is. Or that, because a person who reacts to strawberries doesn't eat them
(i.e. is no longer involved with that substance) has stopped being reactive
to them.
Its not that I disagree with your statement that zero usage of alcohol is
a state of alcoholism...it is...FOR alcoholics. Not, however, for the
population as a whole.
JB> All apples, no oranges.
JB> You're debunked.
LB> The entire comparison is unsound.
JB> Probably, but so what? Many of the arguments presented in this echo
JB> are "unsound." (*chuckle*)
hehehe...that's true.
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Dawson's First Law: You don't have enough outlets.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: BACTERIA AND EVOLUTIO
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:48:48
EID:aad8 22236600
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd409e
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Al and Roger were killing time yakking about BACTERIA AND EVOLUTIO:
AS> Yes, it does say, "None come to the Father except by Me"(Jesus) but
AS> does that mean we must believe in Him first, of just that He is the
AS> final arbitrator of who has access to Him? It can be read either way.
RH> Do you know of anyone offhand, other than yourself, who reads
RH> it that way? Especially in the CofC.
Not exactly as Al is stating there, but yes, there is a school of thought
that suggests that what Jesus accomplished was to act as a conduit...to
open the door. One of his appellations is "the Way"....so that, having
wrenched open the door, one need not believe in him, or even be aware of
the door itself. The barriers have have removed. The question (symbolically)
becomes, "Is the door open or closed? Is knocking and asking for entrance
needed, or is it there, travelled through without having to think about
it."
The idea, often brought up here is that pagans need only stand on their
conscience, whereas those who have HEARD of the door are required to ask
for entrance. Were that the case, and christians really believed it, they
would, if they cared about the immortal souls of their fellow humans and
their
children, do their best to wipe all knowledge of christian teachings from
the face of the planet, so as to avoid that door being shut, waiting to
be
knocked upon.
Sometimes I really think that the reason why some of the most hostile
types are those most prone to evangelization is that they want to make sure
that everyone has 'heard the word' so that they won't be able to just pass
through freely.
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... "Spock, there it is! The edge of the galaxy@@&%$@#!)@(NO BARRIER
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: cheese whiz
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:57:04
EID:3432 22236720
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd409f
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A654392
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about cheese whiz:
NC> the point was, that what comes out of the womb is a human
NC> being... made of flesh and blood, the Bible tells us that God
NC> knows us from the time we are in the womb, until we die. So...
NC> the tissue that our so called doctors are puting in the trash is
NC> human life. Our current disdain for human life is no less as low
NC> as the time Hilter was doing his thing..
LB> So, you want all us women to give our tampons and sanitary pads a
LB> decent Christian burial every month?
LB> Will you do the eulogy?
MH> Now now ... you know what he meant.
MH> Punk. :-)
:) Indeed, I DO know what he meant. Unfortunately, he doesn't. There is
no
telling, short an examination, how many miscarriages happen that are expelled
during the monthy cycle without the woman being aware of it. An egg,
fertilized but failed to attach is not uncommon at all. So, along with
the regular menses, there is ALWAYS the possibility that what is present
is
"human life". If one is going to stand on calling it "distain for human
life"
to recognize that potential FUTURE human life should not be treated as human
(he's been suggesting a requirement to bury aborted tissue...which is usually
only a couple weeks older than what I am talking about), then he is going
to
have to either regard ALL menstrual tissue as possible life, or take it
upon
himself to have each examined...just in case.
And yes, I am a punk. :)
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... You may be redneck if you've ever heckled someone during a eulogy.
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:08:55
EID:c245 22237100
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a0
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 76619823
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Shelby and John were killing time yakking about 'First Cause' Crap:
JB> Zero black is "white." Zero white is "black."
(G) That would depend on if you're talking paint or light. ;)
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Crayola presents a new color! TARDIS BLUE!!!
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: 2 Corinthians 9:13
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:13:46
EID:fc97 222371a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a1
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A654391
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about 2 Corinthians 9:13:
CH> * OLX 2.1 TD * (dis)Prove it!
LB> You can start here...explain to me how one can prove a negative?
MH> Actually, he's asking you to disprove a negative, which is like
MH> proving a positive only in reverse, meaning it's a double negative
MH> which leads to a positive, because ...
I'd ask you to do the math, except that I'm religiously opposed to mathematics.
;)
MH> ...my brain hurts...
Holysmoke tends to do that..
Think he'll teach this poor helplessnewbie how to catch on to the ways of
this
evil echo? hehehe....
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Don't use no double negatives.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:23:46
EID:7d38 222372e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a2
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A6543A0
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Martin and Michael were killing time yakking about ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW:
MG> Thank goodness we have come so much farther since then, with
MG> shamelessly stacked frauleins that have no acting ability. Yes, we
MG> have surely come a long way.
MH> Maybe you have ... I can't even get to first base with them. ;-)
Well, there's your trouble. German girls aren't big on baseball...try Fussball
instead.
An appreciation for oompah music and drinking out of huge glass boots helps,
too. ;)
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... Ahm Sitin an Wachin Der Blinkenleitz und drinking tooo mooch.
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:25:41
EID:16b2 22237320
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a3
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32ca6e44
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Martin and Al were killing time yakking about ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW:
MG> IF souls are the embodiment of wht the person does, then sooner or
MG> later, all would be consigned to hell. That is, if there was a god,
MG> sending out souls to live out our lives for us, sooner or later, they
MG> all get trapped in some sinners physical form and then would be sent
MG> to hell. Pretty soon, god runs out of souls.
AS> Hmmm. I think you're presupposing reincarnation there, unless you
AS> think no one can lead a life that would earn Heaven...
"...for all have fallen short of the glory of God." Rom. 3:23.
That no one can lead a life that would earn Heaven is Christian theology
101.
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... "Gort, Klaatu barada niktu" - Gort, I've fallen and I can't get up.
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: anthropic altruism
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:32:22
EID:609b 22237400
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a4
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A6543A1
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Al and Michael were killing time yakking about anthropic altruism:
MH> Instead, God has been forced into a steady retreat:
MH> Theist: God is clearly proven by A.
MH> Atheist: Actually, A is now known to be caused by B, a natural
MH> process. T: OK, but God is the designer of B, with the intention that
MH> A should be the result.
MH> A: Well, B is a natural consequence of known physical forces, C.
MH> T: Fine, but God intentioned C, to bring about B, to cause A.
MH> Etc., until the theist must find evidence of God in some set of
MH> esoteric "anthropic" constants, and in rare human traits like
MH> altruism.
:) Turtles, or rutabagas, all the way down.
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... "Sorry, Boss, we hit Sodom & Gommarh instead. Lot got away."
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 03 Jan 97 17:17:47
EID:81ce 22238a20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a5
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A65438D
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about Apostasy:
LB> Its a very shaky faith that cannot even handle a question without
LB> having to toss aside the questioner for daring to ask it. I suspect
LB> that your daring to ask it bubbled some of his own doubts a bit closer
LB> to the surface and in order to kill his doubts off (gotta hurry! god
LB> might see!), he had to kill off you, spiritually, too.
MH> Actually, it's probably his lawyer training ... first instinct is to
MH> move for dismissal.
hehe..esp. when the lawyer knows he doesn't have a real strong case.
LB> Of course there is also the possibiliity that Mr. Thoughtless here was
LB> simply still smarting over your scriptural reminder that his litany
of
LB> good deeds had been rendered worthless to god because of his retelling
LB> of it here, and so he proceeded to hit you with a bit of scripture too.
MH> Perhaps so ... but I think my citation of scripture was more
MH> appropriate to the case than his is.
Oh, very much so. Yours pointed to behaviour, his to condemnation with the
ASSUMPTION that your behaviour (i.e. asking a question) was inevitably going
to lead to such condemnation. Were he correct, heaven will be populated
solely
by the thoughtless - yet another reason, even if it is TRUE, to wish to
be
anywhere else.
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ All the world's a stage, and Felini wrote the script.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:38:29
EID:afb8 222374c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a6
REPLY: 1:3603/210 169a4933
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and ROBERT were killing time yakking about Apostasy:
RC> with: Michael Hardy
RC> without: Jesse C. Jones
MH> Hmmmmm .... I THINK you just told me to go to hell.
MH> How does this square with Jesus telling Peter he should forgive
MH> those who wrong him "seventy times seven?"
LB> I can't think how questioning Jesse wrongs him. He needn't
LB> forgive you. Nor should his response be to use scripture
LB> to declare that he considers you to be apostate for asking
LB> a QUESTION.
RC>
RC> In the event that someone believes a question could be BLASPHEMOUS,
RC> then the namecalling, shunning, and (on occasion) demonizing will
RC> not be far behind.
:) Yep. And WHY would a question be blasphemous unless it leads them to
realize the answer, and face it - if only for the few seconds it takes them
to slam down the door against that answer. "blasphemy" in that sense means
"you made me notice something uncomfortable, damn you!" And in Jesse's case,
the damn you response was vocalized.
RC> "Your question is stupid, and I refuse to answer it." I pity the man.
:) well, I hope that his vacation does him some good.
LB> Its a very shaky faith that cannot even handle a question
LB> without having to toss aside the questioner for daring
LB> to ask it.
RC>
RC> But Lynda, don't you realize that *you* are the one who is terribly
RC> insecure? Not Brother Jesse -- he was only here to combat the evil,
RC> and since Michael became tainted by what is supposedly evil (give him
RC> a little time and he'll be making pacts with demonic forces, right?),
RC> that means Jesse is supposed to treat him like the enemy.
I wonder if Jesse realizes that he condemned one of the very few people
here
who has always respected him. If his intent is to fight against the eviiil
of holysmoke, you'd think he'd be less inclined to boot potential allies
into
the fire like that. Perhaps it feeds his need to see his faith as "You
and
me, God, against the world." In such a case, allies make him less "special."
RC> Quoting bible verses that say, in effect, "You're going to go to
RC> Hell, sinner!" is what passes for "Loving thy enemy."
ugh. sad truth is, I've heard it expressed in exactly those terms enough
to
know that for many, you are precisely correct.
And of course, if you fail to cower before their image of hell, you are
"rejecting God's love".
RC> I prefer honestly expressed hatred to that Orwellian crap.
As do I. I like to know where I stand without ambiguity.
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ All great truths begin as blasphemies.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Around the World in 80 Pr
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:49:39
EID:0e1d 22237620
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a7
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A65438C
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim and Michael were killing time yakking about Around the World in 80 Pr:
MH> Yes, I know this; but I'm suggesting you might be in error. I see
MH> nothing in the Bible that indicates it is anything more than a
MH> product of the times and places in which it was written.
JS> I disagree. The Bible is for all time and is not trapped in culture:
JS> (2 Tim 3:16 NIV) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
JS> teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
MH> I know the Bible says this about itself, Jim, but where is there
MH> *anything* in the Bible that demonstrates any kind of knowledge that
MH> wasn't available to the people of the time? How come the Creation
MH> story doesn't mention microbes, just for one example.
I have never quite understood how this passage is taken to indicate anything
inerrant or supernatural about the scriptures.
If I were to write an essay denoting my thoughts about you, it would be
inspired by you...might even be called "Michael-breathed" in the sense that
it would be suffused with my thoughts about you. That wouldn't mean that
you
wrote it, or even agreed with it. It would still only indicate my impressions
of you.
And scriptures ARE useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, etc.....and
often ARE when they are used here in Holysmoke to point out some of the
inconsistancies of christian theology. ;)
Seriously, though, "useful" doesn't indicate inerrant. I have shelves FULL
of books that have been useful to me. None of them are sacred - none inerrant
or above being questioned.
I don't think the author of the above passage EVER intended his words to
indicate some rule that says "Thou shalt not THINK about what scripture
says,
just obey."
The scriptures are very useful for understanding how early christians regarded
their faith...what expressions they took. SOME of the scriptures even have
what I would regard as "truth" - concepts that are nearly universal and
have
parallels in the sacred writings and beliefs of other faiths. But there
is
no indication that the modern evangelical attachment to it all as a strictly
LITERAL recounting of events was ever a requirement of the earliest church.
Indeed, if we accept the recounting of Jesus' ministry in action, we see
that his primary method was the use of parable, symbol and allegory. Why
would
his first followers NOT continue the same method? Not with intent to deceive,
but because they had seen it *work*. The earliest audience may well have
accepted and understood that, with only the 2nd generation beginning to
misunderstand.
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ All the science in Star Trek is consistent and correct.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:10:29
EID:537e 22237940
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a8
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A65439B
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Al and Michael were killing time yakking about Bacteria and Evolution.:
MH> But the deistic God could have a heaven waiting for us. No reason to
MH> think it doesn't. The problem is, Judeo-Christian tradition holds
MH> that God intervenes often in the affairs of humanity; that's why
MH> people pray for things.
AS> Yes. But those prayers are not always answered. (Indeed, if they
AS> were answered infallibly all the time, people would treat it more like
AS> sorcery than prayer...a demand, not a petition.) And rarely in a way
AS> that circumvents natural law.
MH> Although, Jesus guaranteed that they would be.
Which leads to the pervasive notion, expressed or otherwise, that unanswered
prayer means you didn't pray RIGHT, or ask for the right thing....or are
selfish to ask for what you are asking for. Always back to the idea that
it's the imperfect human's fault that the supposedly perfect god declines
to
respond - and for some of us, a loud NO would have been preferable, even
if
it were painful to hear, to the still silence that kept us wondering whether
we'd been heard at all. Or what we did to be "twitted" by the god we were
told we needed to obey and love.
MH> The question is, are prayers *ever* answered? David Worrell tells of
MH> a girl he dated who attributed receiving some money to the power of
a
MH> pagan ritual. A Christian would call it an answered prayer, an
MH> atheist would call it a happy coincidence.
*nod* There is no difference in response for prayers offered in good times
or bad. Always just silence...the only difference is our own perceptions
of
the event. If God is to be credited for the happy events of my life, he
needs
to be questioned about the unhappy ones. Or it needs to be acknowledged
that
each happened without his involvement.
MH> Any evidence that Christians, or any other group, has a higher rate
MH> of such things than everybody else, suggesting divine favor?
No specific group, that I know of, altho I have seen recent things suggesting
that having some sort of organized spiritual life (regardless of the specifics
of it) can be beneficial. What the data is behind that, I have no idea,
but
I think it makes sense in light of what you say below:
MH> I have always thought of prayer more as a meditative exercise to put
MH> us in touch with the divine, not an opportunity to present a wish
MH> list. I may begin practicing it again, even through my agnosticism,
MH> and see if I still benefit from it.
As you know, I continued long after I had stopped being comfortable with
faith, to continue a long practiced, developed prayer life. The routine
itself
had been a source of strength - a way of putting into words and to the front
of my own mind those things that were important to me. Often, we discover
where our heart lies in the act of prayer. It wasn't until I began directly
dealing with issues of whether there was someone on the other end to hear
at
ALL (as opposed to someone just not bothering to answer) that it became
painful
to continue....and it was your very wise advice that if the context of the
method I had used for so long was no longer providing me with anything
beneficial, I should put it away. It was a radical piece of advice you gave
me, by far the most uncomfortable and most important thing that anyone has
said to me in this past year, although I know it sounds so obvious now.
For
me, breaking that pattern was more difficult...and more permanent....than
any
of the changes in belief I have gone through. My theology was always about
action more than faith.
I have found that I am still interested in an organized method of meditating
on those actions, and am slowly and hesitantly developing new ways to do
so.
Including even some of my older methods, such as journaling. Sometimes,
I still
do include what would be called "prayer", although I am no longer so concerned
with whether anyone is on the other end to hear the message. *I* hear it...and
in the end, that was all I was ever certain of, anyway.
If God overhears, and wants to respond, he knows where to find me. :)
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... All silencing of discussion is an assumption of infallibility.
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Brett Johnson
|Sub: Brett Johnson; jealous gods
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:33:08
EID:ce96 22237c20
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40a9
REPLY: 1:221/203 16b2df75
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric and Brett were killing time yakking about Brett Johnson; jealous
gods:
GT> Love and jealousy are _NOT_ complementary, but mutually exclusive.
FR>
mb> Only an emotional illiterate would think otherwise.
FR>
FR> I had to sit here at work and wonder. Hell, I put my feet up and thought
a
FR> Brett's comment. On the whole it smacks of someone laboring under a
malfor
FR> psyche. Without jealosy his gods would lack any show of affection toward
h
FR> There's something fundamentally sick with that belief; or perhaps it's
FR> humanity's primate ancestery he's laboring under.
BJ> For something to be sacred, it has to have some sort of exclusivity.
Why? Why shouldn't what is sacred be all pervasive?
BJ> This is the nature of man's relationship to God. This is the ultimate
BJ> meaning of the verse "you shall not have other gods besides me."
That is the judeo-christian notion of man's relationship to the divine,
yes.
But then, it's working within the context of God as a jealous suitor. It's
circular.
Pagan views say that the sacred is in all things, and that humanity's
relationship to the divine is simply to get in touch with it...why is their
view less compelling than yours?
BJ> The same situation exists for other sacred relationships in this
BJ> life...the most akin to the "God-Man" relationship being that between
BJ> the husband and wife.
I have never seen a secure marriage where the couple were prone to jealousy.
It's only when you are not certain that they are really 'with' you that
you
are jealous of their relationships with other people.
In a good relationship, there is no fear that giving emotional investment
to others, whether friend, child, or family, somehow means that emotional
investments are being TAKEN from you...love is not in limited supply, and
surely a god that IS love wouldn't see it as being possible to have it taken
from him, no?
If the God-man relationship is akin to marriage, it is a rolemodel of a
disfunctional marriage, down to and including "punishing" the spouse for
perceived transgressions.
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ A strange new way to show affection.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Christians v Guns
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:52:25
EID:fab7 22237e80
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40aa
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32ca6e4b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Martin and Al were killing time yakking about Christians v Guns:
MG> Sorry. I've sat on two juries in criminal cases. One guy was brought
MG> in for rape, robbery, and murder. It was brought out in the trial
MG> that he was "known to the police". Know what? I say just off the
MG> sumbitch and the world will be ahppeir place. So what if they didn't
MG> show thta he murdered someone this time? After being brought in four
MG> other times for drug sales to kids and twice for burglary I say get
hi
MG> the hell out of town. Society has no use for bastards like this.
AS> But how many of us, if we were abused as children, raised in high
AS> crime areas, etc. might have turned out awful? I know that many do
AS> rise above such circumstances. But there's no doubt that a higher
AS> number of criminals come from high-crime areas and abusive homes than
AS> otherwise. Maybe it's too late, and they are irrredemable. But I
AS> don't like giving up...on anyone.
Odd. Yet, you defend eternal quarantine or extinction for these same people.
Now THAT is giving up on them, no?
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... "Lawyers feel that every criminal has a right to a lawyer." - J. Elders
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Ciya
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:55:36
EID:1c03 22237ee0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40ab
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A654394
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dan and Michael were killing time yakking about Ciya:
FR> "If I leave now you'll all claim a victory."
FR> To which a regular replied:
FR> "No, we win when you learn to think for yourself."
DC> :)
MH> Then what do you do? Put a notch in one of your horns?
The only one here that there is any evidence of having horns is...you. ;)
(makes a great desktop wallpaper, btw...)
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... "Laughter is the closest distance between two people." -- Victor Borge
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: December 25
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:00:59
EID:68c2 22238000
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40ac
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A654393
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about December 25:
RS> Which is what I told him. I wasn't aware that they finally started
RS> calling it Christmas . . . all the English novels that I've ever read
RS> that dealt with that time of year referred to it as Yule, I'm pretty
RS> sure . . .
GtP> I always thought that, too. But then all the Brits I know are either
GtP> Wiccan, atheist, or SF nuts. . .or all three.
LB> *ahem*, you two....
LB> Ever hear of a little story by a British author Charles Dickens...NOT
LB> known as "A Yule Carol"...
MH> Course not. Everybody knows it's "A Samhain Carol"
Ahh, yes...that's pronounced "A Rutabaga Carol", right?
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Tomorrow & tomorrow & tomorrow creeps in this rutabaga...
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Faith & Works
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:04:55
EID:8b1d 22238080
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40ad
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A654395
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dan and Michael were killing time yakking about Faith & Works:
DC> Did it ever occur to you that Jesse took a powder very shortly
DC> after I re-posted that quote of his? Perhaps he is thinking
DC> about what it means.
DC> But, I doubt it. I think he left so that he wouldn't have
DC> to face the truth and that he could live happily ever after
DC> in his blind obedience to his masters.
MH> No! He left because I asked him a hurtful question that his
MH> Christanic masters couldn't answer! It's my first kill, damn it, and
MH> you're NOT taking it from me! :-)
LOL! New converts are SO much fun.... ;)
Now you'll be wanting the Holysmoke First Kill Merit Badge, I suppose....
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... Convert or Kill: It's not just a good idea, it's God's law!
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
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SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 109/601 104 17 7 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:44:44
EID:e57b 22238580
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40ae
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A65438F
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Michael were killing time yakking about My Summer Weekend:
DC> No, dickhead. I'm tired your fucking whining.
RS> He needs some nice gouda to go with his w(h)ine, Dan. :) :)
RS> And I'm sure you're the type of man who is willing to take that
RS> gouda and feed it to Jimmy....
LB> But...I thought atheists didn't DO any gouda things!
MH> Oh cheeses, another pun thread starting up ...
I know...I cheddar to think of it, myself...
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ "My mortal weakness is cheesecake." -- Tom Servo
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: oh wells
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:46:44
EID:482f 222385c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 32cd40af
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32cabe57
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and Al were killing time yakking about oh wells:
LB> Dunno why the idea of wars between species troubles
LB> you...historically, the first step to justifying the need for a war
to
LB> ones self is to dehumanize the enemy.
AS> Because we don't talk about, for instance, American settlers waging
a
AS> "war" against the bufallo, a "war" against the passenger pigeon, or
AS> prehistoric man doing a "war" against the woolly mammoth. We don't
Ah, but don't we? Got a local exterminator here talking about waging war
against cockroaches on his commercials.
We also, in common language, wage war against NONliving things, i.e. "the
war
on drugs".
War is the organized hostility of one group upon another - why need the
term
be restricted to those two groups being of a common species? In the situation
of 'aliens', couldn't the common denominator between the two groups simply
be that of intelligent organisms?
AS> say Brother Branham, hunting his squirrels, was doing a "war" against
AS> squirrels, either.
No, the squirrel was merely a target provided by god. which goes back to
my
original statement above...on of the ways in which we dehumanize those we
seek to destroy (so as to justify that destruction) is to insist that the
almighty is on our side and wants us to win.
AS> We do speak of wars between humans and humans...or ants to ants.
AS> But an anteater is not waging a war against ants. He's just hungry.
Yep. But were the tourists on the trains firing into the buffalo herds
just doing so because they were "hungry"?
"War" is merely a term...you are fighting for a definition of it that doesn't
match how it is commonly used by the English language, in fiction or otherwise.
Oh...or in theology, either. There is an entire section in the local christian
bookstore here, labelled "Spiritual Warfare". The concept is spelled out
in
2 Corinthians 10:3-6:
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for
the
weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the
destruction of fortresses. We are destroying speculations and every lofty
thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought
captive to the obedience of Christ, and we are ready to punish all disobedience,
whenever your obedience is complete."
Now, Al....is that, as many here will surely see it, a declaration of war
against them, as heathens, pagans, fellow people? Or is it talking about
warring with one's thoughts?
===========================================
Lynda Bustilloz
bustillo@ix.netcom.com or bustilloz@geocities.com
Catty's Castle at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679
===========================================
... But it's not against any religion / To want to dispose of a pigeon
---
* TLX v4.10 *
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Alignment List 01/
|Date: 04 Jan 97 15:11:10
EID:f7cb 22247960
MSGID: 1:106/113 732eebfb
KW> Dan Ceppa NW of Nowhere, WA Slighty askew, Since birth
occassional caller to my system, specially when boards he finds
seem to go down the tubes.
from what I've seen, I like the guy.
KW> Chris Green Liverpool, former agnostic
wonder if this is the same Chris Green I met in the service,
did basic and AIT together.... though the name is the same, i doubt
it, cuz the Chris Green I know was loony tunes just like myself. the
Chris Green here seems to have a good head on his shoulders.
KW> Marty Leipzig Houston, Texas Atheist of the
KW> Novyy Urengoy, finest kind.
IQ = 1,000,000 or close to it. Met em once, chatted a few times
on-line. He's put up with a lot of shit during the years he's used
my bbs, why he stays around, I dunno, but am glad to have em aboard.
KW> J.J. Hitt
He "married" a former best friend of mine. JJ's got class, but I'd bet
no one here who hasn't met him could pick em out of a group of 3, or 5
or 10 people. JJ's got a drive mankind doesn't see too often. I hold
alot of respect and admiration for this guy. A friendship is not in
the horizon, but I like what he is about, and his compassion for learning.
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Satan
|Sub: WiCCA
|Date: 04 Jan 97 08:06:36
EID:1d6e 222440c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 732abf38
REPLY: 1:134/67.666 6c786d43
On Jan 02 14:04 97, Satan of 1:134/67.666 wrote:
CB>> This has to be a joke.. Satan and Wicca have nothing to do
CB>> with each other..
JH>> Other than a complete lack of evidence to support their
JH>> claims about the supernatural.
S> Like you have evidence to support YOUR claims...
Refresh my memory.....
Just what, exactly, are "my claims"?
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Satan
|Sub: WiCCA
|Date: 04 Jan 97 08:19:28
EID:1d6e 22244260
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 732adcb4
REPLY: 1:134/67.666 6c786d43
> From the quill of Satan...
> Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
My records show that node number has been used by the names Conan
Cooper and Michael Gitcheegoo.
Which one of those funny names is your real one?
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 04 Jan 97 08:35:18
EID:c875 22244460
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 732b01d1
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 72e19d02
On Dec 29 18:58 96, Martin Goldberg of 1:124/9005.221 wrote:
NC>> Well my friend it was really penned by 40 authors
NC>> under the direction of God, it's purpose was to speak to
NC>> mankind about a better
MG> Direction of god?
He went thataway...
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 04 Jan 97 08:42:42
EID:2038 22244540
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 732b14a1
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32c922d0
On Dec 31 08:27 96, Nate Cookson of 1:106/113 wrote:
NC> This is really to bad.... since you skin will someday rot
NC> away your bones fosilize, and your heart stop beating....
It doesn't normally happen in that order.
NC> It's a sad thing to base your whole life on....
On what? Being alive?
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: execute her ?
|Date: 04 Jan 97 08:44:06
EID:8c1f 22244580
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 732b189d
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32c924fe
On Dec 31 08:36 96, Nate Cookson of 1:106/113 wrote:
NC> ! Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
HOLY FUCK!
You're in Houston!
The next thing ya know, someone is going to accuse me of being
you...
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Re: 12 Days of Abduction
|Date: 04 Jan 97 08:49:06
EID:a277 22244620
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 732b2489
On Dec 31 14:48 96, Carl Pollock of 1:2424/2406 wrote:
CP> If you didn't notice, this is a RELIGIOUS DEBATE echo. Why
CP> on earth would a message like the twelve days of abduction
CP> go here?
UFO-ology is, in many respects, completely indistinguishable from
religion.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Larry Falcone
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Scopes was convicted!
|Date: 03 Jan 97 22:39:00
EID:34be 2223b4e0
MSGID: 1:282/108.0 8A68E2C1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 91-0224
-=>Meanwhile Rick Mcfarlane asked Laurie about Absolute Liar. <=-
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to David Rice <=-
RM> In fact, there is no other theory to teach regarding the origin
RM> of the various animal species, including man' [5]."
RM> Darrow, Clarence. 1932. The Story of My Life. New York: Charles
RM> Scribner's Sons.
I find it amazing that so very many people on both sides of the issue
remember that Darrow lost the case and Scopes was convicted.
Toodles
Larry C. Falcone
... Dad, may I have the keys to the computer tonight?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: City Lights <612-633-1366> <12 LINES> <28.8 D/S> (1:282/108.0)
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 04 Jan 97 20:18:32
EID:cdab 2224a240
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cf0f78
REPLY: 1:207/212 5258f408
Greeitngs!
KD> On (31 Dec 96) Nate Cookson wrote to Jason Harmon...
NC> it's easy to be for abortion... unless
NC> of course you are the
NC> one being abortied....
KD> That "one" doesn't have any rights yet because they're not born yet.
KD> It's that simple. Birth is the beginning of rights.
This kind of logic is so stupid it's pathetic! Accoriding to this
5 minutes before it's birth, it's not human.. but as soon as the
baby makes it out, it's human!! So what happen at that moment of Birth
that made it more human than just before it was born?
Your logic is not only fautly, it's sick........
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Quote material?
|Date: 04 Jan 97 20:24:46
EID:f84b 2224a300
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cf10ee
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 73086d3c
My Favorite Martian has spoke again!
MG>> He's a fundy with a lawyer.
NC> I guess that's why everyone thinks you have a "higher
NC> education"
NC> It allows you to label everyone as a "fundy"..
MG> Only those with IQ's equal to their shoe size, Fundy.
Don't look know but your so called higher education is leading
you into major hallucinations, since you don't have a real clue
to my shoe size. I sure hope your anchors to reality are more
secure than your wisdom seems to be....
Your losing it big time man.......
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Carl Sagan
|Date: 04 Jan 97 20:29:32
EID:b408 2224a3a0
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cf120c
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 73087288
Mt Favorite Martian speaks again!!
MG>> "abortions cause cancer" department was laughable
MG>> at best.
NC> And your a example of "higher education"
NC> ROTFL !!!!
MG> So, do you have a reason for the "connection"
MG> between abortion and breast cancer. Do dhow all
MG> your controls that indicate that it wasn't a
MG> selected population or that htere was NO OTHER
MG> factor involved.
I posted some information, studies are just begining in the area
abortion and breast cancer. this should at the very least be "discussed"
along with any other topic... but the high IQ folks like yourself are so
afraid that there may be side affects to abortion you all
run like a bunch of scared rabbits.
NC> And you think all Bible belivers are "fundy's" how much
NC> discernment does that take?
MG> I believe that anyone that believes on faith alone
MG> is a moron. do you qualify?
So this is all your so called "higher learning" has done for you?
Since you can't predict the future any more than the next guy, you also
live by "faith alone"... I guess this makes you the head moron since
you have the PHD.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 04 Jan 97 20:37:08
EID:8b71 2224a4a0
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cf13d4
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 73087bb9
My Favorite Martian speaks from on high!
NC> that a atom existed...
NC> today we know they do, as will the future unfold many
NC> "exist" today... but we aren't aware of them,,, It
NC> it doesn't exist...
MG> The evidence ofr unseen things was always there.
MG> We just did not know how to look for them.
MG> Now, with technology advanced to a state where we
MG> can look at galaxies millions of light years away,
MG> we have the ability to look for the evidence of
MG> god. When we did, we found the Big Bang and
MG> evolution isntead. These are things that left
MG> evidence for us to find. Your god did not.
Exactly my point! Our "technology" hasn't been able to "prove"
His existence yet.... but that doesn't "prove" He doesn't exist.
Since we have "evidence" that things exist that we don't know about,
it is very possible that He does exist.... Just like the many other
things mankind will someday discover.
MG> evidence for us to find. Your god did not.
You can't prove this statment.... Since this can only be proved when
the end of time comes, or we oursleves learn how to exist outside
our present reality.
Face it! Your kind isn the narrow minded and prejudiced...
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: Nate Cookson
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: It's true! You're a schmuck!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 20:45:28
EID:6c19 2224a5a0
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32cf15c8
ML> Nate Cookson, bereft (missing the last plane out of
ML> Tokyo), said to Martin Goldberg
NC> greetings Mr Martian!
MG>> You are a fucking moron.
MG> YOu are a fucking moron.
NC> Tsk, Tsk... Some more of that "Higher Education" stuff showing
NC> through!
ML> I doesn't require an LLD to state the incredibly obvious.
ML> You are a fucking moron; and a prosaic one as well.
More evidence of what higher education can do to ones brain.....
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Christians v Guns
|Date: 04 Jan 97 18:56:22
EID:b460 22249700
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7330b28b
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32c34d2a
On Dec 26 21:52 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/17 wrote:
AS> But people are rarely shot by Uzis. They are usually hit by
AS> the "Saturday Night Special" type of gun.
Ahem... most people are shot with THEIR OWN gun, by a family member.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: The Best Of Al & His God.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 19:05:18
EID:926a 222498a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7330cabb
REPLY: 1:221/1503 32C46369
On Dec 27 18:19 96, Ronald Vass of 1:221/1503 wrote:
RV> God Al and rapeing of children. [...]
Don't you know what you just said?
You've put Al in the pantheon, along with God Dan.
You're gonna reincarnate for sure for that screw up.
(Don't accept anything with more than four legs.)
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 04 Jan 97 19:13:38
EID:a6dd 222499a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 73310f57
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 72d25a35
On Dec 28 15:08 96, Martin Goldberg of 1:124/9005.221 wrote:
MG> Although, the guys that gave the orders like Sam Houston
MG> and Jim Bowie were Texans. No need for anyone from
MG> Tennessee to think.
While Sam Houston was born in Virginia (1793) I found the following
passage in an on-line biography:
Houston also began to study law and was soon elected the
district attorney in *Nashville*, *Tennessee*. In 1823, he was
elected to Congress, and reelected in 1825. In 1827 he won the
governorship.
We have Tennessee to thank for not reelecting him.
Jim Bowie was a slave trader from New Orleans.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Dander raising
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:48:30
EID:a1d0 22238600
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cd3877
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2cc4d141
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, Mimi Milstein!
While idly toying with a yellow silk scarf, Glen Todd overheard Mimi Milstein
whisper furtively to Glen Todd something about Dander raising:
GT>> That's because he chose to pick not on myself or on Gwenny, but on
a
GT>> child who doesn't even participate in this echo, Suzanne.
MM> Hmmm, think of it this way. He wanted to 'upset' you, and both of you
MM> are pretty much 'invulnerable' on a personal level. So he went for the
MM> jugular, your beloved kid.
He didn't 'upset' me -- I considered the source. He just demonstrated
once again that he has absolutely no interest in or comprehension of reality
except as it serves his own personal bigotry.
MM> In 'the world of flames' everything is fair game. You must know that
MM> yourself when you 'demolish' a fundy :-)
I don't 'demolish' fundies -- they're generally not worth the effort. Besides,
with just a little gentle encouragement they generally do themselves in
quite nicely.
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
American Thuggee Militia
KALI WANTS YOU!
... "I, your God am a Jello's God!" cried Yahweh, quivering with anger
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Remember -- Rome was Christian when it fell. (FidoNet 1:128/203)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: No, really.
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:31:19
EID:df5a 222383e0
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cd3489
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32cc6d3e
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, Al Schroeder!
Thursday January 02 1997 12:24, Al Schroeder wrote to DAVID RICE:
AS> In Christian circles, it is not recommended to go to worship with
the
AS> idea of picking up the opposite sex, but such happens, nevertheless,
in
AS> meetings in Sunday School, fellowship meals, etc. And there's nothing
AS> wrong with that. I doubt if pagan worship is THAT different.
Except that Pagans don't go to circle to pick up altar boys.
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
From Angle-land to far Vinland the raven banners fly!
... Unicorns must be believed to be seen
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: A horn we raise in welcome to the God of ecstasy (FidoNet 1:128/203)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: The Other Shoe
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:36:18
EID:574e 22238480
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cd35bc
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32c471e8
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, Rod Swift!
While idly toying with a yellow silk scarf, Glen Todd overheard Rod Swift
whisper furtively to Al Schroeder something about The Other Shoe:
RS> If we didn't have the Christian Dogma, we'd be burning yule logs
RS> and have a lot more caring, understanding, tolerant world :)
And I hope you had a very merry Yule as well. Skaal!
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
American Thuggee Militia
KALI WANTS YOU!
... There are heros in evil as well as in good.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Listen, warriors of the Old Gods (FidoNet 1:128/203)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: the other shoe
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:39:36
EID:257e 222384e0
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cd368f
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32c6408c
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, Rod Swift!
Sunday December 29 1996 17:57, Rod Swift wrote to Al Schroeder:
RS> On 21-08-96 at 00:03, AL SCHROEDER wrote to MARILYN BURGE:
AS>> Well...omniscience DOES make for pleasant times when contemplating,
AS>> say, Cindy Crawford's or Michelle Feiffer's dressing room...
RS> But obviously not if you are Michael Hardy, trying to explain why
RS> a God with omniscience would create something with a huge design
RS> flaw that lawyers would literally salivate over if there were
RS> ever a law suit!
Actually, when you come to think on it, why would a theoretically omniscient
and all-merciful god create lawyers?
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
From Angle-land to far Vinland the raven banners fly!
... Revenge is a dish best served cold. It is very cold in space.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: One Book to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them (1:128/203)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Death & Taxes
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:44:27
EID:c0f7 22238580
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cd37a8
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ca6560
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, Rod Swift!
Wednesday January 01 1997 21:23, Rod Swift wrote to Al Schroeder:
AS>> Instead of "make love, not war", do BOTH...
RS> Isn't that the institution of marriage?
Freya, goddess of love and war; "If ya can't lay 'em, slay 'em."
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
From Angle-land to far Vinland the raven banners fly!
... Reality during December: Kill a tree for Christ.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: One Book to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them (1:128/203)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: ACLU & Communists.
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:46:04
EID:98a9 222385c0
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32cd382c
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ca8124
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, Rod Swift!
Wednesday January 01 1997 23:22, Rod Swift wrote to Quentin Fai:
QF>> Hey, Laurie... don't look now, but I think I hear a black helicopter
QF>> hovering over your house. Better whip out the foil helmet.
RS> No no no! The orbital mind control lasers exist!
They did try once to use an orbital mind control laser on Laurie, I hear.
It backfired and blew up -- couldn't find anything to lock on to.
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
From Angle-land to far Vinland the raven banners fly!
... To Err is Human, to really foul up requires a computer.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: American Thuggee Militia -- Knot a Problem (FidoNet 1:128/203)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: IN PASSING
|Date: 04 Jan 97 22:12:00
EID:a1ca 2224b180
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to David Rice <=-
>>AS> Indeed, why laws at all? Why isn't everything chaotic?
>DR> If I understand Mi Fumyah's "Chaos!" at all, everything
>DR> =IS= chaotic. The "laws" we observe are due to two or
>DR> more chaotic systems interacting to form stabilities.
AS> Thanks for the reference. Let me read it and see what he's
AS> referring to.
There are at least half a dozen "popularized" books on chaos
theory, as far as I know. One book that comments on the
topic is "Black Holes and Baby Universes." He either implied
or stated right out (I read the book a long time ago) that it
was his conviction that all of the laws of physics are derived
by a few laws. The Uncertainty Principle makes these few prime
laws chaotic, but their interaction among themselves produces
near-stable "laws" that we observe in action.
A few months ago James Staal in here said that the planets
orbiting Sol were not chaotic (implying that a god therefore
set them in motion). We humans see order in the solar system
as a whole, but it is highly chaotic in its individual members.
Hawking used the solar system as his example for a chaotic
sub-system inducing a harmonic whole.
_Scientific_American_ even had a hobby corner article on how
one may build two chaotic systems (machines) that, when
combined (magnetically) produce a stable system.
... They who plant trees love others they will never know.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ALL
|Sub: Mysteries of the Bible -
|Date: 04 Jan 97 22:15:00
EID:9e99 2224b1e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Bill Wolff to All <=-
[cuts]
This is the set-up:
>> Some topics to be covered include:-
>>
>> Creation vs. Evolution
>> Codes in the Torah.
>> Sodom & Gomorrah: 1.5 million bodies found!
>> The Famines of the Patriarchs- In Egyptian Records!
>> The Pyramids and The Sphinx, tombs or .......?
>> Kabbalah.
>> Who was the Pharaoh of the Exodus?
>> Dan, Dan, The Traveling Man
>> The Hyksos/The Israelites.
>> The Jericho Story:- The Bible and the Archaeology match at last.
>> The City of David found.
>> Solomon's Family- a son in Egypt!
>> Raiders of the Lost Ark:- Found.
>> Hear Oh Israel, Where Oh Israel?...The Lost tribes....found.
>> Ezra and The Great Assembly?
>> The Aleph-Beis, alphabet or Holy Language?
>> Esther the truth at last.
>> The Dead Sea Scrolls, a mystery solved.
>> The Messiah in Prophesy and Reality.
>> The Times of the End.
Here's the punch-line:
>> Finally, please know that the focus of the program is scholarly
>> rather than religious.
ROLLING ON THE FLOOR!!!!!!!!!!
... "I believe in Jeshua bar Casper-the-Holy-Spook!" David Rice
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Christianity = 0 of 0
|Date: 04 Jan 97 22:29:00
EID:b768 2224b3a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Rice <=-
>>CH> Huh? I deleted many of the items, because they were
>>CH> apparently "tongue-in cheek" comments, without merit.
>DR> They were =ALL= "tongue-in-cheek" you silly schmuck!
>DR> That's the whole goddamned point!
DC> I warned you about wasting fuel on that fly-by. But,
DC> Nooooo! you kicked it into over drive and missed the
DC> top of his head by 100,000 feet after a short runway
DC> takeoff and him standing at the end of the runway.
DC> The bill for jet fuel is the the mail.
But it makes no SENSE! The article was clearly labeled as
satire by the original author, who explained why he made
the list as satire: to counter-point the fiction that the
USA is "anti-Christian" by pointing out the fact that it
is the opposite (i.e. anti-non-Christian), via parody.
This was QUITE clear, and yet the recipient (who asserted
the false claim in here) of the article used the words
"apparently 'tongue-in-cheek'"?!?! And ONLY "many" of
them at that?!?!? And =THEN= go on to critique the listed
items (i.e. the parody of "anti-Christian life in
America") as presented as if they were factual and / or
really asserted?!?! HOW COULD SOMEONE BE LIKE THAT?!?!?
... Nothing fails as much as prayer fails.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Faith & Works
|Date: 04 Jan 97 22:41:00
EID:a0b1 2224b520
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Rice <=-
> On (24 Dec 96) DAVID RICE got back to DAN CEPPA...
>>>JJ> Myself, I like Dietrich Bonhoeffer's response:
>>>JJ> Only those who believe are obedient, and only
>>>JJ> those who obey believe.
>>DC> I do wonder if Jesse knows that he's deserving a
>>DC> place in the FAQ, once again, for such a lovely
>DR> I wonder if Jesse knows just how evil and abomitable
>DR> the Bonhoeffer quote is.
DC> Did it ever occur to you that Jesse took a powder very
DC> shortly after I re-posted that quote of his? Perhaps
DC> he is thinking about what it means.
What it means is blatently obvious. Hitler and his fine
henchmen would have agreed with "Only those who believe
are obedient, and only those who obey believe." Where
would Hitler have been without his believers who obeyed
him?
DC> But, I doubt it. I think he left so that he wouldn't
DC> have to face the truth and that he could live happily
DC> ever after in his blind obedience to his masters.
My theory is that Jesse may have been frightened off by
Michael Hardy's aleged "loss of faith." If I can happen
to Hardy (alegedly) if can happen to Jones. How very
terrifying it must be to face the fact that one has
SQUANDERED decades of ones' life on the lie of
Christianity! Perhaps he fleed before his doubt could
get that far into the truth.
Conversely, the fact that atheists =DO= "for the most
part" do good works, for no other reason than because
it is the proper thing to do, without gods egar and
willing to punish them if they do not, might have also
terrified him. If his belief in his gods =REALLY= was
the only thing keeping him from going sociopathic, he
may have finally realized that there was something
massively wrong with him. He never did answer my query
on how it was that he required belief in gods for him
to do Good Things while millions of atheists do not
require belief in gods to do Good Things.
... BELIEVER.CON found: [A]nnoy [I]nsult or [E]xploit for money?
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: FAQ!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 22:44:00
EID:c340 2224b580
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Rice <=-
>DR> "Yeah Bailey! You and Jennifer get used to each other's
>DR> bodies!" -- Les
DC> "Those _lines_ are where my offices walls would be if I
DC> had walls."
"This is Les Nesman high about Cincinati in WKRP Chopper
One!" --- Les slapping his palms on his chest rapidly.
DC> FWIW, Jennifer was the flashy one, but Bailey stole
DC> all of my imagination.
You sure got that right. She was the major reason for my
watching the show. I found (and find) Loni Anderson very
ugly. Jan Smithers was vastly more appealing.
... The church collection plate is PROOF that prayer does NOT work.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: "Atheists who do no good" - Jesse's 'Last' Lament
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:02:28
EID:4a6c 22250840
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cefe5e
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e8ded
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
iJcJ>>> Try one more time to understand this, Freddie.
sq>> What was he going to do? Cry if you didn't capitulate?
FR> _Anything_ so long as he doesn't think at me! I couldn't take that!
I'd sure like to know whether guys like him actually DO get down on their
knees to pray for "us sinners." Or is it just a big display of piety?
FR> It's even less than that... who cares what a fundy calls us?
I've been called worse than "Stevie" by the Fundies, that's for sure. Jones
should go back to "heathen." It's more his style. :)
sq>> I posit that even HE doesn't know what his statement, "for the
sq>> most part, atheists do not do good things," actually means.
FR> You know, I think you're right.
I wonder how things are when that 'for the most part' is taken away. What
is it that Jones thinks that atheists do in the course of their seven day
week?
sq>> At the same time, it keeps him from molesting little girls,
sq>> fornicating with animals, masturbating with magazines, and killing.
FR> All the things he _must_ do without the existance of deities.
Until he comes along and clarifies as to what "selfish" means. Yet another
question to be ignored.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Rice Brothers
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:06:02
EID:cfd3 222508c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cefe90
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e8dee
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> Check out, "I was a zombie for the FBI." The aliens put their drug
FR> into the "Health Cola" drink which gets distributed nationally and
FR> are working on getting into "Unicola's" stock. }:-}
It's the flouride in the water, I tells ya!
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:09:16
EID:a0e5 22250920
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32ceff50
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e8e00
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Jim Staal:
FR> I understand that you're only mouthing off what you know are lies because
FR> you have nothing that can defend yourself from the embarrassing truth
that
FR> you are, without doubt, a sick, evil demon.
Yeah! YEAH! Tell him to stand on a milk crate when he's forging those
pacts!
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:09:44
EID:9abd 22250920
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32ceff71
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e8e02
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Dan Ceppa:
FR>> You're sick, dear. You need an exit councelor.
dc>> I hear that Dr Kavorkian has volunteered his services.
FR> Now _that's_ a good exit!
I understand that there is some lobbying going on to make him the Presidential
and Congressional physician.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Masturbation
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:13:06
EID:2daf 222509a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cf0074
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32c64818
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Rod!
Dies solis December 29 1996, Dixit Rod Swift ad Joe Palas:
RS> The mormons have some really strange views on jerkin' the
RS> gherkin', I'm afraid. I have a really excellent post sitting
RS> around somewhere which satirises their "commandments" against it,
RS> if anyone wants a chuckle *and* if I can find it.
My in-laws are afflicted with that particular brand of Christianity, and
my youngest brother-in-law has a -great- book on proselytization, which
also includes some "pointers" on how to refrain from autoeroticism. I'll
have to copy the thing the next time we're in Salt Lake, as it's a riot.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: December 25
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:15:24
EID:b8fc 222509e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cf00c9
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32cbc229
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Gwenny!
Jovis dies January 02 1997, Dixit Gwenny the Pooh ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Perhaps we can get Sean McCullough to come up with
SQ>> "For the most part, atheists do not do good things" in Classical
SQ>> Latin. Sean, how about it?
GtP> I'll ask him. His feed through us is no longer taking HolySmoke.
I would appreciate that. Thanks!
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MOORCOCK echo
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:18:12
EID:c55c 22250a40
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cf016e
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32cda2ff
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Al!
Veneris dies January 03 1997, Dixit Al Schroeder ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Have 'em keep hammering away. Frankly, I don't think we're getting
SQ>> out of Region 19. :-/
AS> You should have responses in this packet.
Got 'em! Now I just need to send a blurb to Christopher Baker for the Fidonews.
:)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The Alignment List 01/
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:18:56
EID:c7df 22250a40
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cf01a1
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e44403f2
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Katherine!
Jovis dies January 02 1997, Dixit Katherine Wintersnight ad All:
KW> Steve Quarrella Rowlett, TX USA Intolerant of idiocy Since its
KW> birth
Alternately, "Pete Townshend fan."
KW> (Continued to next message)
We didn't see it here...
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: I'll be back...
|Date: 05 Jan 97 01:19:24
EID:3560 22250a60
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32cf01be
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5f85e80d
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Katherine!
Jovis dies January 02 1997, Dixit Katherine Wintersnight ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> her. Later, Burt Reynolds calls Davis "the Chocolate Monk." It's
a
SQ>> corny movie with an all-star cast -- Terry Bradshaw, Mel Tillis, Roger
SQ>> Moore, Dom DeLuise, Jackie Chan, many others -- but it cures a rainy
day
KW> The best part of that movie, IMHO, is the blooper reel at the end.
With Roger Moore being called "Semen" by the woman playing his mother.
Great stuff!
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Laurie explosion imminen
|Date: 31 Dec 96 18:18:06
EID:d7fa 219f9240
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 32c9684f
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 32c6b136
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Andrew Masten <=-
JM> Hi Andrew...
JM> On 06 Dec 96 09:15:37, Andrew Masten penned the following to Rod
JM> Swift re: Laurie explosion imminen
AM> And I suggest there is little scientific evidence which
AM> disqualifies us from being here as a result of design. Theories
AM> and models abound.
JM> I suggest you look up the Scottish philosopher David Hume, who
JM> debunked the argument from design hundreds of years ago. In the
JM> centuries since many attempts have been made to show where Hume
JM> was wrong, but none of them were very successful.
I think your use of the word debunking is alittle strong. He simply
stated his opinion regarding the subject. With the confirmation of
more 'fine-tuned constants' the rationale has gained strength. Among
those critical of Hume's thoughts were atheist J.L. Mackie who said,
" There is only one actual universe, with a unique set of basic materials
and physical constants, and it is therefore surprising that the elements
of this unique setup are just right for life when they might easily
have wrong. This is not made less surprising by the fact that if it had
not been so, no one would have been here to be surprised. We can properly
envisage and consider alternative possibilities which do not include
our being here to experience them."
Mackie's thoughts don't debunk Hume's thoughts anymore than Hume has
debunked the thought were here by design.
JM> "Theories" abound, yes... particularly scientific theories.
JM> Religious-type "models" abound, but they aren't scientific.
Determining if a phenomena is by design or naturely occuring can hardly
be classified as religious model. If a homicide detective suspects a
death was by design, is he going to be characterized as being religious?
Demarcation arguments between what is and isn't "science" abound as well.
Some arguments exclude evolution from being scientific.
JM> As for showing where Laurie is a charlatan, just go back and
JM> look at almost any one of his messages or messages TO him. Pay
JM> particular attention to the messages he gets back. Not only are
JM> there a number of rational people with considerable science
JM> background and a greater understanding of his quotes and
JM> sources than Laurie himself has responding to him, but by now
JM> he is being treated in the most vile manner by people who
JM> normally only give what they receive. I can practically
JM> guarantee that if he were at all rational he would be treated
JM> that way in return.
RS> Oh, and if your theory was true, Laurie, can you show me the
RS> scientific "proof" from cretin science which CONCLUSIVELY proves
RS> that it was the Christian creation myth that was this "inherent
RS> designer" of the universe?
AM>
AM> Can you prove conclusively that we are here as a result of
AM> mechanistic process alone?
JM> "Conclusively" is a poor choice of words. Science can show with
JM> close to 90 percent accuracy not only what DID happen, but what
JM> did not. In some cases (such as allele frequency defining
JM> biological evolution) it can show with 99.9999% accuracy that
JM> indeed, such and such happens.
JM> Ultimately, science has shown that there are no serious
JM> objections to the "mechanistic process" being responsible for
JM> "life, the universe and everything". It has also shown that
JM> there are some very serious objections to the "design"
JM> argument.
I'm not sure what you classify as objections. I'm not aware of any viable
explanations for how life initially got started or how the universe came
about from the big bang. What event preceded or caused the first event
we know of?
Science is philisophically predisposed to explaining everthing via
natural law. I'm not opposed to that. But I recognize that science is
not going to appeal to an outside agency no matter how well that
explanation might fit the facts and data of a situation.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 02 Jan 97 00:01:32
EID:15c6 22220020
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 32cd633f
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 72f97ea4
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> I disagree with your assertion that there is no evidence for a
AM> creator.
MG> And there you stop.
MG> Where is this evidence.
The primary evidence for a creator is the universe. Just as a house is
evidence of a house builder, this universe is evidence of a universe
builder. Many scientists agree that prior to the big bang, time and the
laws of physics didn't exist. Since we know of no events that are
uncaused, its rational that the universe was a caused event. Matter,
time, and the laws of physics were caused events. The causer or
creator of such events must be greater than the events caused.
Secondly, there is the fine tuning of the universe, which allowed people
like you and I to ponder where we came from.
Evidence for fine tuning of universe.
1. Strong nuclear force constant
If larger; no hydrogen; nuclei essential for life would be
unstable If smaller; no elements other than hydrogen
2. Weak nuclear force constant
If larger; too much hydrogen converted to helium in big bang,
hence too much heavy element material made by star burning ; no
expulsion of heavy elements from stars
if smaller; too little helium produced from big bang, hence too
little heavy element material made by star burning; no expulsion
of heavy elements from stars
3. Gravitational force constant
if larger; stars would be too hot and would burn up quicky and
unevenly if smaller; stars would remain so cool that nuclear
fusion would never ignite, hence no heavy element production
4. Electromagnetic force constant
if larger; insufficient chemical bonding; elements more massive
than boron would be too unstable for fussion
if smaller insufficient chemical bonding
5. Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force
constant if larger; no stars less than 1.4 solar masses hence
short and uneven stellar burning
if smaller; no stars more than 0.8 solar masses, hence no heavy
element production
6. Ratio of electron to protron mass
if larger; insufficient chemical bonding
if smaller; insufficient chemical bonding
7. Ratio of protron to number of electrons
if larger; electromagnetism would have dominated gravity,
preventing galaxy star and planet formation
if smaller; same result
8. Expansion rate of universe
if larger; no galaxy formation
if smaller; universe would collaspe prior to star formation
9. Entropy level of universe
if larger; no star condensation within the protogalaxies
if smaller; no protogalaxy formation
10. Mass density of universe
if larger; too much deuterium from big bang hence stars burn too
rapidly if smaller; insufficient helium from big bang
11. Velocity of light
if larger; stars would be too luminous
if smaller; stars would not be luminous enough
12. Age of universe
if older; no solar type stars in stable burning phase in the
right part of the galaxy
if younger; solar stars in stable burning phase would not yet
have formed
13. Initial uniformity of radiation
if smoother; stars, star clusters and galaxies would not have
formed if coarser; universe would be mostly black holes and empty
space
14. Fine structure constant( a number used to describe the fine
structure splitting of spectral lines)
if larger; no stars more than 0.7 solar masses
if smaller; no stars less than 1.8 solar masses
15. Average distance between stars
if larger; heavy element density to thin for rocky planets to
form if smaller; planetary orbits would become to destabilized
16. Decay rate of proton
if greater; life would be exterminated by the release of
radiation if smaller; insufficent matter in the universe for life
17. C to O nuclear energy level ratio
if larger; insufficient oxygen
if smaller insufficient carbon
18. Ground state energy level for HE
if larger; insufficient carbon and oxygen
if smaller; same result
19. Decay rate of BE
if slower; heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic
explosions in all the stars
if faster; no element production beyond beryllium, hence no life
chemistry possible
20. Mass excess of nuetron over the proton
if greater; neutron decay would leave too few neutrons to form
the heavy elements esential for life
if smaller; proton decay would cause all stars to rapidly
collaspe into nuetron stars or black holes
21. Intial excess of nucleons over antinucleons
if greater; too much radiation for planets to form
if smaller; not enough matter for galaxies or stars to form
22. Polarity of water molecule
if greater; heat of fusion and vaporization would be too great
for life to exist
if smaller; heat of fusion and vaporization would be too small
for life's existance; liquid water would become too inferior a
solvent for life chemistry to proceed; ice would not float,
leading to a runaway freeze-up
23. Supernova eruptions
if too close; radiation would exterminate life on planet
if too far; not enough heavy element ashes to form rocky planets
if too infrequent same result
if too frequent life on planet would be exterminated
if too soon; not enough heavy ashes for rocky planets to form
if too late; life would be exterminated by radiation
24. White dwarf binaries
if too few; insufficient flourine produced for life chemistry to
proceed
if too many; disruption of planetary orbits from stellar density;
life on planet would be exterminated
if too soon; not enough heavy elements made for efficient
fluorine production
if too late; flourine made to late for incorporation into
protoplanet
25. Ratio of mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter
if smaller; galaxies would not have formed
if larger; universe would have collasped before solar-type star
could form
Some of these constants would preclude any life, not just life as we
know it. The expansion rate of the universe is tuned to within 1 part
in 10exp55. A hair too fast and galaxies don't form. A hair too slow
and the whole mass clumps together again.
Of course there are objections to this interpretation of evidence. But
that doesn't invalidate the evidence itself.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Andy's on the ropes.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 02:57:33
EID:10fd 22241720
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 32ceb42d
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Andrew Masten <=-
ML> I trust you have evidence for this "soul" thing which you grant
ML> all these wonderful attributes?
AM>
AM> There is a great deal of evidence for the soul.
ML> Any extra-Biblically?
AM>
AM> Thats clever,
ML> Well, *someone* in this dialogue has to be.
AM> inserting this statement between a paragraph I've
AM> already written.
ML> Does that annoy you? Does it piss you off? Does it make you
ML> angry?
ML> Good.
I just mistakenly thought you were smarter than that.
AM> Is there a level you won't stoop to?
ML> Yes, your level of inculcated ignorance.
The post is young yet.
AM> According to
AM> biblical doctrine
ML> Didn't think so. Andrew, according to the Bible, bats are
ML> birds. It's not the most error-free nor conclusive reference,
ML> you know.
AM> humans are a tri-part being. Spirit, soul and
AM> body. The soul is our mind and emotions.
ML> Humans are but a sentient animal; of which the cognitive
ML> portion of the brain gives rise to the mind and emotions.
AM> The terms soul and heart
AM> are interchangable in the bible.
ML> Odd, I've never heard of anyone checking into the ER for a
ML> "soul attack" or of anyone needing a "soul transplant".
AM>
AM> I know your prone to say stupid things,
ML> And you're prone to making idiotic observations and not knowing
ML> the proper contraction for "you are".
AM> but must you act like its
AM> a virtue?
ML> "Speak wisdom to a fool and they call it foolishness." Pearls
ML> before swine, Andy. Be careful, you'll slip and pratfall on
ML> them again.
Oh brother an atheist that quotes scripture.
AM> This should not be surprising since there is little of
AM> Christianity you fathom.
ML> Apart from the fact that you glorify ignorance, revel in
ML> impossibilities and lack the intestinal fortitude to face life
ML> with several cosmic crutches;
I assume you meant without cosmic crutches. Atheists often do a good
job of using philosophy and science as a crutch to avoid theological
possibilities.
ML> the remainder of Christianity is
ML> just so much glitz and frippery. One need not be concerned with
ML> its gold-leaf covering when one knows the fetid garbage it
ML> covers.
You call it garbage, but this country is suffering from a spiritual void.
I'm not appealing to anything supernatural. Just compare how people are
today from 40 years ago. Is this the age of scientific enlightenment,
peace and harmony? If we extrapolate, where will this country be 50
years from now?
Your so concerned about the spread of Christianity. What about the advance
in occultism and new age mysticism? Which would lead you more horrified,
to find one of your children being a satanist or a Christian? Your so
concerned about Christianity, yet our children are being inculcated daily
with occultism.
ML> I fathom more than you could ever comprehend. In fact, I scored
ML> straight 4.0's in Abnormal Psychology.
AM>
AM> And you reply on this echo during your weekend furloughs?
ML> Hardly, Andy; I've been out of college for over 15 years. I,
ML> unlike some of your benighted brethren, actually have a life and
ML> live it to the fullest. Although most of them I see here have
ML> real futures as Case Histories.
Lighten up Marty, it was just a joke.
AM> Willfully conforming yourself to the image of God, is not losing
AM> your free will.
ML> If done only to garner cosmic brownie points and supplicate
ML> before your deity, it sure SOUNDS like an abrogation of free
ML> will.
AM>
AM> Marty, you know little about Christian doctrine beyond your
AM> preconcieved notions and stereo types.
ML> How unfortunate for you and you misbegotten ilk that they're
ML> dead on correct.
I don't doubt some are correct, but garnering cosmic brownie points is in
error.
AM> And I don't have time to
AM> inform you.
ML> A fine example of the
ML> buck-and-wing fundy shuffle.
ML> Another charlatan for Christ.
Am I to believe you want me to teach you Christian doctrine?
AM> What you fail to recognize is everyone is
AM> conforming to some image.
ML> Everyone? Mighty broad brush there, Andy. I do so hope you have
ML> evidence to back up this ludicrous claim.
AM> Whatever type of diet you nourish your
AM> brain on is the image you are inexorably being conformed into.
ML> Low fat, high fiber is simply a diet; not an image I conform to.
AM>
AM> Since science is your God, I would think thats the image you
AM> conform to.
ML> Great! Does that mean I get Sagan's birthday off as a holiday?
ML> Can I declare tax-exempt status for my lab? Hot damn!
Do you deny that this country was founded by people deeply commited to
Judeo-Christian thought? This country rose to prominience in record time
on what you believe to be a failed philosophy of ignorance. How do you
account for this enigma?
ML> Science as God? Hardly? Science invites inquiry. Your Gods die
ML> from that activity.
Yes, I retract that statement. Science isn't your God, but scientism is
a philosophy you cling to.
RS> Christianity is the brainwashing of the feeble into something to
RS> place hope in when all hope is gone.
AM>
AM> You have just fallen for a silly stereo type. How many wealthy and
AM> sucessful football, basketball and baseball players have you seen
AM> that are devout christians?
ML> At least a few. How many of the US's prison populace are
ML> Christians?
ML> Answer the question, Andy.
I haven't the slightest idea. Does being in prison make one feeble.
AM> Do you think Reggie White is feeble and
AM> brainwashed?
ML> Quite probably; but I reserve comment until he himself makes
ML> his own proclamations.
AM> Or how about Evander Holyfield? Care to step in the
AM> ring since he's so feeble?
ML> Not particularly. I never liked boxing, I prefer wrestling and
ML> Judo.
ML> Still, it is amazing that you feel that it's such a gift from God
ML> to be able to make a living pummeling others.
AM>
AM> No, this is just your feeble attempt at obscuring the issue.
ML> How? You're the idiot that starting holding up sports figures
ML> as exemplars of your nonsensical faith.
Against the charge of Christians being feeble and brainwashed yes.
ML> We know full well what causes religiousity, and we do have the
ML> antidote; although the afflicted so oftimes refuse the cure.
AM>
AM> I'd like your version of what causes 'religiousity' Marty.
ML> Unquestioned belief, Orwellian "doublethink", deliberate
ML> ignorance and fear. In any combination.
AM>
AM> I've questioned my beliefs on many occasions.
ML> Try doing so without your Biblical blinders.
AM> But I can't escape
AM> the conclusion that we are here by design.
ML> There's this chap named David Hume you should read about some
ML> time.
You should read from a fellow named J.L. Mackie. An atheist who saw a
flaw in Hume's argument.
"There is only one actual universe, with a unique set of basic materials
and physical constants, and it is therefore surprising that the elements
of this unique setup are just right for life when they might easily have
been wrong. This is not made less surprising by the fact that if it had
not been so, no one would have been here to be surprised. We can properly
envisage and consider alternative possibilities which do not include our
being there to experience them.
AM> -!- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
ML> Isn't is about time you registered that thing, Andy. Theft is
ML> against your one of your Ten Commandments, isn't it?
Yes and yes.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Anthropic asininities.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 19:21:07
EID:1ceb 22249aa0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 32ceb42e
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Andrew Masten <=-
ML> Andrew Masten, bereft (missing the last plane out of Tokyo), said to
ML> Marty Leipzig
AM> Even if I wanted to bag the whole thing, I could never deny that
AM> God exists.
ML> Why not? A lack of vertebrae or mental horsepower?
ML> Answer the question, oh gut-less one.
Have you quit beating your wife? Answer that.
AM> Its not a matter if I believe or think there is a God,
AM> I know there is.
ML> You believe there is; which is a damn sight different than
ML> knowing.
AM> No, I know there is. You believe there isn't. Thats the difference.
ML> Wrong yet again, Andrew. I know that there is ZERO evidence for
ML> said God. You still believe that there is a God, evidence
ML> notwithstanding.
AM> There is plenty of evidence that suggests were here by design.
ML> Such as? Some time and shopworn anthropic argument? Or just
ML> another in your long lists of arguments from your ignorance?
There are at least 23 constants needed for our existence. Some of those
are needed for any life at all. The expansion rate of the universe
must be fine-tuned to within one part to 10exp55.
AM> You
AM> reject all of it on a philisophical presupposition that there is no
AM> God, or creator.
ML> Nope. As I do not consider a God(s), angels, sprites, pixies or
ML> invisible pink hippos when I set up and run an experiment; why
ML> should I consider that when constructing a gedankenexperiment
ML> concerning the universe?
No one is suggesting you should consider God angels, sprites or pixies in
a experiment. But when examining a phenomena, like the placement of rocks
in a field, there is nothing unscientific about considering whether those
rocks were placed by design or natural forces.
ML> Science does not require nor desire any supernatural anything;
ML> it has no need of any "God Hypothesis". I am no different.
The idea that science must explain via natural law, is a philisophical
statement, not a scientific evaluation.
AM> As a result, you inbrace any theories, no matter how
AM> bizzare or esoteric.
ML> I do not "inbrace" anything; but you must do a load of
ML> in-bracing to shore up that inane belief set of yours.
ML> I do not "not believe", I think the fact that there is no
ML> evidence is more Ockhamically logical than to ignore that fact
ML> and believe not withstanding.
AM> Is God or a designer or a creator impossible? Or possible?
ML> "Nothing impossible exists." That takes care of question #1.
I don't know what question that answers. If your saying God is impossible,
then on what basis are you making that claim?
ML> Possible? As "God" is a supernatural construct, and, by
ML> definition, the supernatural is totally unevidenced; and,
Whose definition? And is that definition a scientific one or philisophical?
By my definition the supernatural is above the natural and created the
natural.
I don't know what notion you subscribe to, but many scientists say that
time and natural laws didn't come into being until a fraction of a
second after the big bang. Unless the big bang was an uncaused event, the
cause of such an event was beyond time and natural laws.
ML> again by definition, only that which is natural (i.e., exists)
ML> leaves evidence; the answer is self-evident. No evidence or
ML> impossible for it to be evidenced. Therefore, nonexistent.
Again Marty, this is just a philisophical definition you have construed.
By the way, by your definition, nuetrinos are non-existant since they
leave no evidence.
AM> I don't think its impossible that the universe exploded out of a
AM> singularity at just the right velocity so galaxies and solar
AM> systems formed.
ML> Why not? That's exactly what happened.
As I said, I don't think its impossible, its what caused this event that
we differ.
ML> It amazes me that you can so readily accept, believe in and
ML> discard your life to something that is illusory, completely
ML> lacking in evidence and requires such great leaps of illogic
ML> and internal inconsistency to accept rather than the real, cold
ML> hard physical facts of the universe.
ML> Belief. It is such an illogical construct; cherished by the
ML> incognizant.
You posit belief systems when it furthers your argument.
AM> And then atoms out of this birth would conspire to
AM> assemble themselves, ultimatlely into sentinent beings.
ML> Ahh, stuff your anthropomorphisism where the stellar masses do
ML> not fuse. Atoms do not conspire, only duplicitous empty-headed
ML> schmucks do; to shore up their faulty and frivolously capricious
ML> belief systems.
Stuff your belief system that says mechanistic forces alone suffice to
turn random matter into complicated sentinent beings.
AM> Nor, do I
AM> think its impossible for what appears to be by design, to be by
AM> design. Why do you?
ML> Because it's totally unevidenced and the laser edge of the
ML> Razor of Ockham points to a way much less fanciful and much
ML> more plausible (and evidenced) explanation. Big Bang cosmology
ML> needs exactly less than 1 miracle or supernatural intervention to
ML> have happened. That alone puts it gigalightyears ahead of your
ML> Cosmic Designer (if one my so denigrate the term) "argument".
Lets see if I have this right. You claim your notions are scientifically
based. You denigrate any belief systems as frivolous and capricious. Yet
in the previous post you drop Hume's name, a philosopher and now Ockham
a philosopher-theologian. Lets see who this fellow is your so proud of.
William of Occam, or Ockham, b. Ockham, England, c.1285, d. c.1349,
ranks among the most important philosopher-theologians of the Middle
Ages. After joining the Franciscans, Occam studied at Oxford, where he
encountered the thought of John Duns Scotus and where, from about 1319
to 1320, he wrote a commentary on the Sentences of Peter Lombard. In
1324 he was called to the papal court at Avignon to answer a charge of
heresy in a trial that dragged on without a formal conclusion. In 1328,
Occam and Michael Cesena, the Franciscan minister-general, fled Avignon.
Although under a ban of excommunication, they were welcomed by the
pope's enemy, Holy Roman Emperor LOUIS IV, to whom Occam is reputed to
have said: "Defend me with your sword and I will defend you with my
pen." At the Munich court of Louis, Occam wrote all his important
political works, including those on papal power and the state. It is
believed that he died in Munich, a victim of plague. Occam has been
called the greatest logician of the Middle Ages; using his logical
faculty, he elaborated a theology that remained influential for
centuries. In his Commentary on the Sentences and in other early works
such as Quodlibeta septem (Seven Miscellaneous Questions) and Summa
totius logicae (Sum of All Logic) Occam adopted a nominalist (see
NOMINALISM) solution to the problem of UNIVERSALS. He maintained that
all existing things are individuals and that universality exists only in
concepts or names. It followed that (1) God, unhampered by any universal
essences, was free to create every individual unconnected with every
other and (2) subsequent causal connections among such individuals were
not necessary. Occam accepted the Aristotelian dictum that science is
demonstration based on certain, secure premises. He rejected the
Thomistic view that theology is a proper science and therefore rejected
rational demonstrations of God's existence, of divine attributes, and of
the immortal ity of the soul. Against the philosophical explanations of
others, he used a principle sometimes called OCCAM'S RAZOR: "A plurality
(of reasons) should not be posited without necessity." In law and
ethics, Occam's nominalist views led him to voluntarism and emphasis on
the divine command. He concluded that the ultimate source of value and
obligation lay not in any "natures" of things but in the free will of
God. He regarded the rightness or wrongness of human acts as a function
of their being commanded or forbidden by divine authority.
John P. Doyle
Bibliography: Boehner, Philotheus, The Collected Articles on Ockham
(1958); Leff, Gordon, William of Ockham: The Metamorphosis of Scholastic
Discourse (1975); McGrade, A. S., The Political Thought of William of
Ockham (1974); Moody, Ernest, The Logic of William of Ockham (1935)
Get a load of this. Here you are an atheist promoting a theist in furthering
your supposedly scientific reasons for not believing in God. Considering
you think anyone who believes in God is an ignorant idiot its amazing you
would use a theists argument to further your own.
I think perhaps you are a charlatan.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Glodbreg bettered!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 19:21:20
EID:80bc 22249aa0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2cef4e00
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73271822
Hello J.J.!
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
xx> Mr Hilter and his simply frinds never went to collage.
xx> Contriversial, you say! No way... That psot of whining
xx> two year holds couldn't disceren an honest salughter
xx> from an epidemeic dop pile.
JJH> Hehehehe....
JJH>
JJH> The above quote has three words in a row that are spelled
JJH> correctly and in the correct order. Can you find them?
Let me try... "never went to" looks OK :-)))
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal wants to know
|Date: 04 Jan 97 21:15:19
EID:97aa 2224a9e0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2cf10000
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018be51e
Hello Fredric!
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to DAVID RICE:
>>MG> That's just Terrifid.
> ML> A little sea water will take care of that problem.
dr> I thought it was rain that did away with the infestation.
FR> Rain took care of the Triffids and rain also took care of
FR> the Andromeda Strain. I think that sound waves took care of
FR> the pods.
Rain? Seawater? Nothing of the kind... the only thing Triffids
were vulnerable to was a flamethrower. The book ends with
Triffids all over the place - and all the humans can do is
HOPE they will eventually find a way to exterminate them.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: WARRING CHRISTANIC FA
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:09:00
EID:9110 22238120
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Do I sense a gauntlet being picked up here?
GTP> Yep, and the next sound you heard was a brick being slipped into it.
Ok, I'm ready.
RH> ANY godess. They're all false. I except the Goddess as embodied in a
RH> living human, as a psychological manifestation of something or other.
GTP> You probably wouldn't get too much argument from most of us pagans.
GTP> Many of us are very Jungian.
Oh well hell, how am I supposed to start an argument THAT way?
... Psycho-ceramics: The study of crackpots
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Jan 97 16:10:00
EID:7895 22238140
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Excellent point, and one I hadn't considered. Let me think on that
AS> one.
Please do, it's an important point.
RH> For a reference, see Crick's "The Astounding Hypothesis", although
RH> I wish he had covered it more completely.
AS> I've heard of that book, and keep meaning to read it. Last I checked
AS> it was not in the Nashville Library, but let me see if they've gotten
AS> it in yet. If not, I can order it through interlibrary loan.
Absolutely, it's a "must read". I've been hoping to find it second
hand somewhere.
... (hic) BWave 2.10 (hic) BWave 2.10 * My computer is drunk ...
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: MIRACLE [1/2]
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:02:00
EID:72b5 22236040
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb621
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Making a good die roll, Marty Leipzig cast MIRACLE at Al Schroeder .. and
all hell broke loose.
AS> The miracle is that any of us talk at all. There are at least two
AS> hundred and fifty thousand separate species of animal in the world.
ML> Umm, Al. You're quite wrong again. A conservative estimate of
ML> species of the Kingdom Animalia is over 10 million; although
ML> most are insects.
About right, though some writers suspect as high
as 100 million.
AS> At least two thousand eight hundred and fifty are mammals like men.
AS> (I'm using an old reference book, and suspect that those numbers have
AS> swelled since then.)
ML> "...mammals like men..."? Show me a bipedal cetacean, Al.
I think he meant "mammals, as are men".
AS> There are some that communicate. Ants do. Bees do. But they are
AS> stuck with the same language that their remote ancestors use.
ML> Whoa-ho! When you're wrong, Al, you really pull out all the
ML> stops.
Al, bees have, at least, different dialects across geological
regions. An African honeybee won't understand the dance of a
European honeybee of the same species.
AS> They
AS> don't coin new words. They are imbred in their genes.
ML> Baloney and other lunch meats! The dance of _Apis domesticus_
ML> (deciphered by Strongwall in 1958) has been observed to be an
ML> evolving form of communication when environmental flux occurs.
ML> This flux is entirely synthetic (i.e., man-made) and yet the
ML> bees quickly developed new forms of communicating to others of
ML> the hive this development.
ML> And that's just one of the social insects. Sheesh, Al, your
ML> anthropic chauvinism is really in full bloom today.
AS> Chimps can be
AS> taught sign language...but again, they don't coin new words.
ML> So? When is "coining new words" a linguistic benchmark?
Actually, chimps DO coin new words in sign. If they want to make
note of something, but haven't been taught the "proper" word for it,
they'll make a sign of their own. And even after 20 or 30 years of
field study, we still know very little about the natural signs that
chimps in the wild use amongst each other.
AS> There are
AS> no different "languages" developed, as different as French is from
AS> Spanish, for instance.
ML> Ever hear of Esperanto, Al? Ever hear of Ur-Mongolian (a
ML> classic study of an endemic language if there ever was one)?
I think he was referring to other species. At best, I can simply
say "We really don't know". Not enough research has been done on
animal communication to say whether dialects actually exist within
species, except for bees.
However, researchers HAVE noted that prarie dogs developed a whistle
for humans de novo, when they hadn't used it before but started to
become alarmed at human activity around their towns. They already
had specific whistles (and responses) for snakes, coyotes and other
creatures. Certain monkeys also have specific calls for leopards,
snakes and raptors, respectively, and have been observed to lie
about the presence of leopards in order to steal goodies after
everyone else shimmied up trees to avoid the "leopard". (With the
snake call, they simply stand on tiptoe and look around; with the
bird warning, they hide beneath the undergrowth.)
AS> There is some question about cetacians. No one really knows. We
AS> speculate that some of them, like whales and dolphins, might have
AS> languages, but as of yet we have not cracked the "code". If they are,
AS> then they are too, very miraculous compared to the bulk of animalkind.
ML> More lunchmeat! There are forms of animal communication that
ML> make even this method (electronic) pale by comparison. Got a
ML> week or two (I studied vertebrate ethology for a while...most
ML> fascinating) for a dissertation or three?
I'd love to see it. :)
As for whales, they seem to communicate pretty well over long
distances, using thermally-varied layers of water. Unfortunately,
artificial ocean noise (ship propellors) have disrupted this form of
communication.)
Elephants also communicate over long distances subsonically. This
wasn't discovered until a researcher noticed a thrumming in the air
as she studied elephants at a zoo; she then turned on a recorder,
and played it back at a faster speed, revealing the sound. So far,
all anyone knows for sure is that they are able to co-ordinate herd
movements over long distances this way (it had been a mystery
previously as to how they COULD co-ordinate as observed.)
Again, we simply know too little to say for sure one way or another;
and linguists, being human, are known to fiddle with the definition
of "language" in order to KEEP the concept entirely human.
AS> If not, we are unique in the biosphere of earth.
ML> Right. Remember, Al, you are unique; just like everyone else.
Man is unique - as are all species. Everyone's just unique in a
different way.
AS> Each one of us are a miracle. Each one of us defy the rule that is
AS> common throughout biology. It's not a matter of intelligence. In
AS> nonverbal tasks, my autistic children scored as high as any. But the
AS> miracle is that ANY of us can coin a new word, or split off into a new
AS> language. It is the difference of Man...and the difference it makes.
ML> I am offended by your anthropochauvinism, Al. Let's see you
ML> communicate by perturbations in a self-generated standing
ML> electrical field (electric eels and catfish do); let's see you
ML> communicate by pheromones (as do a host of animals)...ad
ML> infinitum.
ML> "...coining words..." Big deal.
Indeed. I've wondered if using words is really all that efficient.
If you can get concepts and information through via a packet of
smells, that's probably at least just as efficient as spending an
hour describing something verbally. No, it might not last as long
as writing, but as we all know, even the written word isn't
necessarily forever. How many books have been utterly lost
throughout human history?
Our noses are simply too weak to utilise scents (as is the case with
most other primates), and speech probably simply arose from the
usual screeches and grunts apes use. After all, if you listen to
someone speak quickly in a language completely foreign to you, it
doesn't sound like much else than monkey-chatter.
AS> Is it too commonplace a miracle for you? So sorry.
ML> Sounds like your miracles certainly require a shitload of human
ML> intervention, Al.
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: MIRACLE [2/2]
|Date: 03 Jan 97 12:02:01
EID:36b5 22236040
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb622
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 2...
Langauge is an adaptation, and probably not the most efficient one
to come down the pike, either. It's very easy to misunderstand and
obfuscate with words. And when a language dies and becomes
forgotten, all the information is lost, anyway.
AS> It still is
AS> miraculous beyond belief. Other animals fly, or swim...breathe water
ML> What animal breathes water? The one's I know of breathe oxygen
ML> in the water.
Marty, "animal" doesn't mean specifically mammal. :)
Another example of how words are easily misused. Reminds me of
George Bush defending his bird shooting on the grounds of "birds
aren't animals". I wonder if he thought they were flying
vegetables, then.
AS> or flash light. But so far as we can prove, only man can coin a new
AS> word. "In the beginning was the Word; The Word was with God and the
AS> Word was God"...the opening lines of the Gospel of John.
ML> "Words...only words..." In the beginning, there was a vacuum
ML> fluctuation.
Everything on Earth communicates in some way or another whether
chemically, visually or aurally. We've got simply one way of doing
it. Hell, even a lot of other languages are ill-equipped to coin
words; they steal from the lingua franca of the time (English itself
is a mish-mash of other peoples' words). I've seen Chinese and
other foreign-language broadcasts in which English words pop up on a
regular basis, because there is no word in that language for the
hing talked about, or else it's easier to say "computer" than a
longer phrase in language x that translates out to "complex
electricity-using machine which counts."
--Wolfie
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... All the world is Schrodinger's Box and we're all merely cats
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Actors & Their Roles for $400
|Date: 03 Jan 97 17:11:02
EID:7e11 22238960
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb623
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Actors & Their Roles for $400
at Sue Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> Besides, look how many people can't distinguish the actor from the
SA> character. When Joan Collins was in that prime-time soap opera,
SA> people would come up to her and call her a "bitch" and rant about
SA> what her character did. Other soap opera stars have the same
SA> problem; one daytime soap star was on TV recently noting how many
SA> people would come up and tell her to "leave such-and-such a
SA> character's husband alone." An intelligent person would realise that
SA> not only is this actress not really doing this, but that she has no
SA> control over the script.
JS> I got to meet Walter Koenig (Star Trek's "Chekov") at a party a
JS> couple years ago. He was quite an intelligent guy and of course did
JS> not speak in the corny Russian accent he has on the show. I felt a
JS> little sorry for him in being typecast, but it seems he acts in local
JS> theatre productions when he wants decent, non-sci-fi acting roles.
It
JS> is unfortunate that most of us don't get to meet actors when they are
JS> "out of character."
Yeah, it is a shame. But when people are seen playing a role for so
long, the average moo can't seperate them from the role so easily.
I remember going to see "Man of La Mancha" in Toronto, starring Hal
Linden. Good play, well done, but it didn't go over so well; people
couldn't accept "Barney Miller" playing Don Quixote. Shame; Mr
Linden is quite a talented singer and a gifted performer on stage.
SA> Brown.) Speaking of which, even your ex-Vice President couldn't
JS> Uh, *I* never voted for him. ;-) And I do know how to spell
JS> "potato." :)
:)
SA> distinguish fiction from reality on TV; his problem is a little more
SA> widespread than it appears at first glance. And things got a little
SA> more confused, I imagine, when "Murphy" went on her fictional "FYI"
SA> show to rebut Quayle's complaint. :)
JS> Yes. The Republicans are very much into symbolism, IMHO. We even
JS> have an actor (Fred Thompson) as a US Senator from Tennessee. What
a
JS> phony! But most people just lap it up.
Fred Thomson .. is he the guy who played in "Love Boat"?
Of course, then there's the (former?) mayor of Palm Springs, the
right honourable Sonny Bono. .
--Wolfie
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Advice to 15 Y.O.
|Date: 03 Jan 97 17:16:03
EID:bfbb 22238a00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb624
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Joe Shedlock cast Advice to 15 Y.O. at Sue Armstrong
.. and all hell broke loose.
JS> BTW, if you had a 15 year-old daughter, what and how would you
JS> advise her?
SA> 1) Not to take anything on TV at face value. It's all fiction, and
JS>
JS> A very interesting essay. One I'll have to keep.
Thanks.
SA> 3) Assess what YOU really like, closely and carefully. Do you
SA> really like/want to do X? Why? "Because it's cool" is NOT an
SA> acceptable answer. Do you really dislike/don't want to do Y? Why?
SA> "Because it's not cool" is NOT an acceptable answer. ie, Do you
SA> really think it's a good idea to drink? Do you really like
SA> drinking? Is it worth the aftereffects? Analyze. (Hey, 15 year
SA> olds manage to get booze, too.)
JS> I'm a bit surprised by what I've seen about young people and
JS> drinking. Most seem to want to drink to get drunk, and the idea of
JS> moderation never occurs to them, or so it seems.
No .. and a lot of people don't grow out of it, it seems, unless
something dramatic (or traumatic) happens. They see getting wasted
as "fun", and don't realise how idiotic they look - mainly because
all the other bar-goers and party-goers are also shitfaced.
SA> and the librarian there will be happy to help. (I found my first
SA> BBS list at the library. I asked on a hunch, and they actually had
SA> a long list of local numbers for me to try.)
JS> BTW, one of the best sources I've found for information on birth
JS> control is the chapter in "Our Bodies, Ourselves." Thoroughly
JS> annotated with an extensive bibliography. My ex-gf was told to use
JS> something by her gynecologist, and he basically passed along the
JS> wildly exaggerated claims for effectiveness made by the drug company.
JS> This book gave the true statistics. Result: different method and
JS> different gynecologist.
Sigh. It's not really the gynaecologists' fault; most doctors don't
have time to keep up with all the new literature that's coming out,
and tend to rely just on what you said - the drug company info.
Wrose, many of them are indeed swayed by what doctors refer to as
the "pushers" - the company reps who come around with their free
samples and their promises of all kinds of perqs and gifts
(including free trips) from the drug companies if they prescribe a
certain quota of THEIR drugs over the competitions', or over generic
drugs. Most doctors I know try to do their best and stick with info
from journals - the one I type for relies mostly on European
clinical studies (ie, non-animal studies done on actual patients
receiving the medication for real, not simulated, problems) to make
his decision as to what's the best to use for, say, fibrocystic
breast lumps. He invariably prescribes iodine casein for long-term
use, on the basis of these studies, but if that doesn't work, will
use tamoxifen (which is still legal here) for short-term use for
more dramatic problem cases. Tamoxifen DOES work, but he's aware of
the risks in long-term use and so avoids it as best he can despite
pressure from its manufacturer.
SA> 6) Talk to older people.
JS> Hmmn, as one of the relatively few "older" people on the local
JS> boards, I've had remarkably few people ask me much of anything,
JS> including about sex. I do think that some of the girls discuss sex
JS> with some of the older women modemers.
Hmm. I've never had such an experience.
--Wolfie
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... Error 6 Tagline not funny. Operator deleted.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|Date: 03 Jan 97 17:26:04
EID:2a60 22238b40
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb625
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Fredric Rice cast Ask And Ye Shall Receive at Coridon
Henshaw .. and all hell broke loose.
ch> For example, there was some dipshit who drove up to Toronto in
ch> July with his skis and was asking passers by 'where's the snow?'
FR> Yep, that's an American, allright! He probably also had
FR> three or four of his high-powered rifles and a couple of dozen
FR> handguns in his car, too (never know when the Brits will attack again,
FR> you know.)
FR> Yeah, he should have driven to _Baniff_ in July and asked where the
FR> snow was.
An uncle of mine used to work for Immigration at the Ambassador
Bridge (the bridge connecting Detroit and Windsor.) Now, normally
Immigration doesn't have much to do with incoming American
holiday-goers, but if a Customs officer is stumped after
questioning, visitors will be directed over to the Immigration
building.
Seems there was this carload of happy happy holiday goers on fine
day in June who had their car loaded with parkas and ski equipment.
My uncle asked them where they were going - "To Montreal to ski for
the afternoon," they said. Montreal is a good 10 - 12 hour drive
from Windsor. Then he asked them how much money they had with them.
"Oh, 5 dollars. We plan to be home by suppertime," they cheerfully
replied.
He calmly explained their problem, and sent them back home.
Worse, he said that their car was sporting Michigan plates.
I can see such idiocy from someone from, say, New Mexico or other
far southerly state, but MICHIGAN? You'd think they'd know better.
My mom used to work in downtown Detroit, as a clerk for an insurance
company in the 60s before I was born. She lived in Windsor, and it
was only maybe a 10 minute drive from where the house was to the
Penobscot building, including paying tunnel fees and time for
parking. One fellow who commuted by air from Chicago every day was
amazed when she told him she was Canadian, and yes, she did live
"over there" - it amazed him that she would come "so far" to go to
work. She tried explaining to him that she had a much shorter trip
than he did.
Another Detroiter co-worker asked her once to "speak some Canadian".
Bemused, my mother inquired further about this, and it seems that
the only place the woman had ever visited over here was a little
store by the tunnel entrance that sold fireworks (legal in Ontario,
banned in Michigan), and the owner of said store was Ukranian, who
didn't speak much English. The woman assumed that everyone in
Canada spoke Ukranian as their first tongue, and as she didn't KNOW
it was Ukranian, thought it was some sort of unique Canadian
language. It's probably a good thing she never visited the
neighbourhood in which I was raised; she would have assumed we all
speak Italian. I guess she had never tuned into the local CBC
stations (radio and television), which can be received by antenna in
Detroit, or else had only tuned into CBC-French.
On a visit to Indiana one August, I had the pleasure of meeting a
rather friendly Texan man on a visit to the ethological research
site I spent a week at. The week was thoroughly miserable,
weather-wise - upper 60s to low 70s and almost constant rain.
Rather bad for wolf-watching, I'm afraid. The Texan remarked
innocently enough that, hey, it must be warmer here than where I
came from, right? I replied that when I left the Saturday previous,
my area was experiencing its usual summertime temperatures of 85F+
and oppressive humidity that raised the apparent temperature by 10
degrees F at the very least. He remarked that he was surprised at
that, and had thought we got snow all year round. Well, for a
Texan, I suppose that's excusable, especially since Indiana itself
was getting such rotten weather. And no, he wasn't any sort of
professional; just a guy on holiday who went there for the public
visting day to hear the lectures and see the demonstrations, and
maybe learn something new. I queried him a bit on his home state so
as to make him feel not so bad.
Certain errors are forgivable, such as Michiganders who wait until a
green light to make a right turn no matter how dead the cross-street
is (right turns on red are perfectly allowable, so long as it's done
safely unless otherwise posted) or those who don't realise that
clattertrap death-cars are illegal to drive here (we don't have
emissions tests - we have safety tests. In order to be legally
drivable, a car has to, well, have a floor, doors, and not have bits
of machinery hanging off it) and other such obscure legal
considerations. I enjoy helping lost Americans find where they want
to go, or suggest places to eat or shop or visit; I would hope I
would get similar treatment in any strange city. I don't like the
idiots who come to drink, get wasted and cause trouble, but we have
our own share of those, and I wouldn't like to see the province's
drinking age raised (I just wish people would show a little more
sense and consideration.) But it amazes me as to how much utter
ignorance there is as to basic realities of geography and weather
there is amongst those in bordering states. I imagine there are
some who think that, no matter how hot it is in Detroit, the
temperature automatically drops below freezing as soon as you cross
the border.
--Wolfie
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... True enlightenment is a radical goal.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: Fundy silliness [1/3]
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:00:05
EID:3d5d 22246000
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb626
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 3...
Jason Harmon had a good giggle with a couple of tidbits I sent him,
so I thought I'd share it all with the general echo.
This first one is a tirade against a popular card game, in which you
play the part of a wizard casting spells and summoning beasties
through the power of various types of land. The second is an
oldie-but-goodie sermon against AD&D. My own comments are
interspersed within.
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------->
BEWARE of MAGIC: The Gathering™
Report by David L. Brown, Th.M.
© August 1995
_________________________________________________________________
May only be reproduced in full and must include this notice. May not
be reproduced for resale. May be carried on other non-commercial web
sights provided the Logos web address is included --
http://www.execpc.com/~dlbrown/Logos/
_________________________________________________________________
GenCon is the annual gaming convention, sponsored by TSR™
(Tactical Studies Research) of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. TSR, Inc. is
the originator of the original Fantasy Role Playing Game, Dungeons &
Dragons™. The GenCon Convention is the place to introduce new
products to the FRP (Fantasy Role Playing) crowd because 15,000 to
25,000 people attend GenCon annually. In 1993, when I walked into the
convention hall where vendors have their booths, a crowd caught my
eye. There was a group of people sitting around a line of tables
playing cards and the crowd was intently watching. I had never heard
of or seen a "fantasy" card game before, so I asked about it. As it
turned out, Peter Adkison and his "basement" company, Wizards of the
Coast, had driven all the way from Renton, Washington to introduce
Magic: The Gathering™. I had no idea at that point that I was
video taping Gaming History. At the 95 convention there were so many
people packed around The Wizards of The Coast mega-booth that it was
hard to get a decent picture. People were buying, selling and trading
Magic cards. It was easy to see why "Adkison's basement
operation...has mushroomed from 6 to 250 employees, with operations in
Glasgow, Scotland, and Antwerp, Belgium, in addition to Renton,
Washington." (3). A press release entitled Growing Globally tells of
their international success. I was startled to read that there are
more than 1/2 Billion Magic cards in circulation around the world with
more to come. The company cannot keep up with the demand for the
cards. There is such a demand for the cards that they are bought,
sold, traded and even auctioned over the InterNet. Now, lest you think
we are talking pennies, I have seen bids on cards from $50 to $100. I
have heard report of cards bringing $200 and more. For $1500 you can
buy the Unlimited Series set and for $1000 the Legends series. Need I
say more? "Magic continues to grow and is quickly becoming recognized
as one of the most elaborate strategy games in history."(1/5)
THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE GAME
The root idea for the game came from Peter Adkison. You might say
Adkison is a preacher's kid because his father was an Army chaplin.
But his mind was not on the things of the Lord. "While in high school
he developed a fascination with role-playing games, such as Dungeons
and Dragons, and began developing his own games." (3) He organized a
small gaming company that he ran out of his basement called Wizards of
the Coast and he began marketing fantasy role playing games.
That's where Dr. Richard Garfield, professor of combinational math
comes in. He too was a fantasy role-playing enthusiast. He met with
Peter over a pizza in Portland, Oregon, to try to get him to produce
the fantasy role playing game, RoboRally. Peter was not interested but
said, "he really saw a need for a game that could be played quickly
with minimal equipment, a game that would go over well at
conventions." (2/4) He suggested the concept for a fantasy card game
and asked Garfield if he thought he could develop the game. The rest
is gaming history.
THE EVIL OF MAGIC: THE GATHERING
I see at least four major problems with this game. These conspicuous
problems cause me to urge people neither to collect these cards nor
play the game --
1) The primary focus on the occult
2) The violent nature of the game
3) The addictive nature of the game
4) The identification of the players with evil characters.
The Occult Focus & Violence Of The Game
The Bible makes it clear in both the Old and New Testaments that
occult practices are an abomination to the Lord. Deuteronomy 18:10-12
There shall not be found among you any... that useth divination, or an
observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a
consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For
all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD:
Another scripture passage that points out just how seriously God views
the occult and wizardry is Acts 13:10. The Apostle Paul indicts Elymas
the sorcerer with these words -- O full of all subtlety (deceit) and
all mischief (maliciousness), thou child of the devil, thou enemy of
all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of
the Lord?
The fact is, we should not mimic things that are an abomination to the
Lord. No one should even pretend to be a child of the devil, an enemy
of righteousness. When they do, they pervert the acceptable ways of
the Lord!
Perhaps you are wondering, are Magic cards really occult oriented?
Read this quote carefully -- "Unlike Dungeons and Dragons, which
became an infamous tool for occultists, Magic has not developed an
outside mythology. 'This draws on the milieu, the fantasy of Dungeons
and Dragons' says Richard Garfield, the creative impetus behind
Magic..." 4
Garfield, the developer of Magic cards, pulls no punches when he says
unequivocally that Dungeons and Dragons was an "infamous tool for
occultist." (More like an infamous tool for fundies seeking
"occultists" under every stone. - Wolfie) Why? Because D&D got
its story line, symbols and characters from the occult and Pagan
mythology. (And from Christian sword and sorcery stories. The
tale of King Arthur is full of "magic" and dragons; and what of
St George with his dragon? - Wolfie) But he does not think his
game has that problem. Why? Because he has gone to D&D for his
story line, symbols and characters but not the "real" occult.
What is he thinking? Though he has a Ph.D. in combinational
math, his reasoning is flawed. Since D&D is based on the occult
and is a tool of occultist, then Magic cards will be equally a
tool for occultists because they are based on the occult also,
the second generation occult data of D&D. After reading two
books about the game, watching the game being played, reading
numerous news articles and reading scores of Internet E-Mail
messages on the game, there is no doubt in my mind that Magic
cards promote the occult and violence. Just a word about God's
view of violence -- GOD HATES THOSE WHO PROMOTE VIOLENCE. (And,
presumably, smite down those he hates, in violent fashion.
-Wolfie) Look at Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but
the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Let's
look at some more of the evidence.
Georiga Pabst of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel writes, "Magic: The
Gathering takes place in the mystical multiverse of Dominia where
players become mighty wizards and, armed with beautifully illustrated
cards of various creatures, artifacts and lands, cast spells and
enchantment aimed at killing off the opponent." 3 (emphasis added)
Georgia, in the above concise statement, hits the nail on the head.
(The only nail here is the pointy shape on the author's head. -
Wolfie)
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: Fundy silliness [2/3]
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:06:06
EID:795d 222460c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb627
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 3...
Every player is a wizard or sorcerer and the goal is to build up
enough magic energy to kill your opponent. Here's how it works
according to the instruction book that comes with the cards -- "There
are two basic types of cards: spells and lands. Lands are easy to
spot; they say 'land' in between the picture and the text box. Lands
are the most common kind of card in Magic, since they usually provide
the mana, or magical energy, for all your spells. You can lay out one
land per turn, and you may use the land for mana as soon as it is in
play." 5/5 Now, how do you kill your opponent? Aimee Miller of the
Washington Post wrote, "The rules of the game are simple: Each player
starts with 20 'lifepoints.' You gain lifepoints by casting beneficial
spells from land cards. You lose lifepoints when attacked by nasty
creatures and charms. If you run out of lifepoints, you're exiled,
which is a polite way of saying your dead. Players stay alive by
annihilating their opponents first." 4 She goes on to say, "Want to
crush your opponent in under five minutes? Stack the deck with deadly
and destructive black and red Magic cards". 4 (emphasis added)
(Sure, unless your opponent has a Circle of Protection: Black and
a Circle of Protection: Red card. - Wolfie)
That brings me to the Mana (magical energy) Chart explaining the
different kinds of Magic and how they can be used.
Black Magic is identified as the magic of death. Let me share with you
two quotes from the book, Mastering Magic Cards. "The magic of death
is often a double-edged sword, however, malevolent to its wielder as
well as its victim. Few people summon the awesom might of the Lord of
the Pit without being ready to sacrifice their very worldly existence
to wield its incredible power..." 1/30 The second quote -- "A black
necromancer wields the sacrifice, particularly the Dark Ritual Cards"
1/30
Blue Magic is mental in nature and taps "the elemental forces of air
and water." Friends, lest you think this is harmless let me tell you
that occultists believe in and seek to tap into the power of what they
call Sylphs (elemental spirits of the air). They believe that Lucifer
empowers air spirits. That is interesting in light of Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now
worketh in the children of disobedience:. The truth is, the elemental
spirits that occultists claim to communicate with, whether they be
air, water, earth or fire spirits are demons from Satan's diabolical
horde. I have personally interviewed a real witch who says she invokes
earth spirits known as trolls (really demons) to assist her in her
rituals.. (See my pamphlet The Truth About Trolls for more
information). Magic cards is conditioning children to be receptive to
paganism.
Green Magic draws energy from the forest and has vast destructive
capabilities. Green or Ecological magic is in fact one of the most
popular forms of witchcraft today. (Nope. Can't have any
tree-huggin' environmentalism in games, can we? Let's hope this
nerd never finds out about Werewolf: the Apocalypse. - Wolfie)
Red Magic is the destructive magic of earth, fire, chaos and war.
Chaotic magic is practiced by many today. There are Internet sights
devoted solely to this diabolical from of magic.
White Magic is used for protection, healing injuries and chivalrous
war. Wiccans claim to practice only this "good" kind of magic. I know
that is not true. I have copies of curses that "good witches" have
spit out against Christians. ("May thou think for thyself." -
Wolfie) And let me remind you that occult magic in any form is
derived from Satan and his diabolical horde.
Likely there are those who will protest, What's the big deal? It's
only a game! Listen, games are powerful tools for capturing the minds
of children. (CHILDREN? I don't know any pre-adolescents who
play. My kids are too restless for me to try to teach them. -
Wolfie) Games point the thinking of those who play them in a
definite direction and if that direction is not a wholesome direction,
there can be problems. Listen to who is playing the game and what it
is doing to them --
The Addictive Nature of The Game
"Magic addicts range from kindergartners to middle-aged professionals
-- the game's a favorite pastime for Microsoft employees.
(Microsoft .. oh, well, that right there makes it evil. Yeesh.
- Wolfie) They also include a substantial number of female
players in addition to the 'teenage', white male boys" Renee
Shallis of Wizards of the Coast. 4 (Oh, my. Can't have wimminz
frittering away their time with card games, when they should be
at home cooking, spinning, weaving and breeding. Gah. - Wolfie)
"Originally targeted to males in their teens and early 20s, Magic now
has younger children playing ..."
"After the printing of Fallen Empires, there exists over 1,000 cards,
and no one can claim to own all of them. Many of the veteran addicts
are familiar with each and every one and can recite their name,
abilities, casting costs, and color with no reference to aid them;"
1/5 (No different, in my mind, from some sports nut who spends
every weekend in front of the boob tube, and can recite the stats
of every professional baseball player to have ever taken the
field. - Wolfie)
"The game has literally captured the imaginations of thousands and
taken on a life of its own." 1/3 That is a major problem. (It's
only a problem to those of us who play, and sink tons of dough
into buying more cards in hopes of winning at least ONE damn
game. - Wolfie) When anyone becomes preoccupied with thoughts
that are an abomination to the Lord God Almighty there is going
to be trouble. According to 2 Corinthians 10:4-5 we must reject
thoughts that are contrary to God's word, and bring into
captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. If a person
refuses to do that Romans 1:21 reveals the consequences --
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and
their foolish heart was darkened. A darkened heart is serious
business! (Yeah, and such card playing could lead to DANCING!!
- Wolfie)
Let me issue a solemn warning to parents, Magic: The Gathering is
dangerous because it conditions the minds of the players to be
receptive to the occult and violence and those who really get into it
become addicted. It becomes the focus of their lives. (Playing
a card is violent? I've never hit anyone with a card in my life!
- Wolfie)
There is one final issue I want to deal with. That is --
The Identification of Players With Evil Characters
Many of those who play Magic cards identify mentally with the Sorcerer
they choose to play. That is dangerous. Consider these quotes --
"Part of the game's appeal comes from 'the ability to develop a
character -- you get to be somebody else,' says Garfield...In Magic
the deck you put together reflects your character -- your
persona." 4 (Frankly, you don't create a character, at least not
in the sense of role-playing games. You're you. You plays your
cards. That's it. You don't have to "be" someone else, no more
than playing Old Maid makes the loser play the part of an old
maid. - Wolfie)
"...Magic is closer to role playing than any other card or board game
I know of." 2/17 (Well, no shit. It's CLOSER, but it ain't quite
the same thing. And it isn't the only one; until recently, White
Wolf published it's OWN card games, based on their RPGs - a
Vampire card game, Rage, and Arcadia: the Wyld Hunt. There is
also a Monty Python card game for sale, along with, oh, dozens of
others based on popular Sci-Fi. All have basically the same
concept behind them; Magic's difference is that it's
fantasy-based, rather than sci-fi or RPG based. - Wolfie)
The best thing you can do, in my opinion, with Magic: The Gathering is
to follow Acts 19:19-20 Many of them also which used curious arts
(occult materials) brought their books together, and burned them
before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty
thousand pieces of silver. 20 So mightily grew the word of God and
prevailed. (Oh, here the dutiful Christian is advocating burning
Magic cards. Lovely. And they say they don't burn books and
things any more. - Wolfie)
Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of
darkness, but rather reprove them.
Postscript -- Other fantasy card games & POGS
(Yes, folks - POGS. You know, those funky little "milk caps"? -
Wolfie)
Because Magic cards "struck gold" there are now more than a dozen new
fantasy card games that have been introduced. Many of them add another
element you need to be warned of, that is SENSUALITY. (ROFL! I
myself am rather prudish; yet I fail to find anything "sensual"
in, say, the Grandmother Sengir card and the like. - Wolfie) In
my opinion women are portrayed in pornographic or near
pornographic fashion. In fact, as I ready this research report
for the printer, I talked to a New York attorney, who is
researching Magic cards. She has nearly 1000 of them. She told
me that there are definitely cards that are sensual and portray
women in pornographic poses. Other fantasy card games include --
SPELLFIRE™, GUARDIANS™, HIGHLANDER™, WYVERN™,
VAMPIRE™, BloodWars™, SHADOWFIST™, HYBORIAN GATES,
RAGE COMBAT, (And Rage has some of the worst artwork there is,
thanks to SCAR Studios. Not in terms of "porno" - it's just that
the two folks comprising SCAR draw horribly, and they have no
talent. - Wolfie) TOWERS IN TIME™, On the Edge/ARCANA,
EVERWAY™ just to name the ones that I have researched.
I should say a few words about Pogs (also called milk caps). I am
concerned about pogs for the following reasons. First, many of them
have occult symbols on them. Some of them have drawings of pagan gods
and goddesses. Many are death oriented, containing drawings of skulls,
skeletons, etc. I have seen some that are sensual. Others have
shamanistic figures on them or witches. But, there are many that have
sports figures on them or even Hollywood stars. Even if your child
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: Fundy silliness [3/3]
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:24:07
EID:855c 22246300
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb628
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 3 of 3...
collects only the good pogs, if he trades them with others, he will be
exposed to the bad ones. Do you want that exposure? Second, The QVC
home shopping channel announcer made the following announcement
attributing it to an organization called the Pog World Federation --
Every stack of pogs has its own aura. You concentrate on your ch'i.
That is alarming because auras are rooted in Hindu beliefs and the
ch'i is rooted in Taoism. Both have occult implications. Basically
they are saying pogs have their own energy or life force and so do the
players. To win you need to connect the two. (To _win_? I had
no idea that there was winning or losing involved in collecting
POGS. - Wolfie) That is the occult doctrine of pantheism.
Finally, there is the element of gambling that concerns me. Do
you want your child playing pogs "for keeps" as we used to say
in marbles? I do not believe gambling glorifies God. (I
suppose this guy never played marbles as a kid - probably
because he lost all his long ago. - Wolfie)
_________________________________________________________________
REFERENCE MATERIAL USED
1. Mastering Magic Cards; George H. Baxter & Larry W. Smith, Ph.D.;
Wordware Publishing, Inc., Plano, Texas.
2. The Magic The Gathering -- Pocket Players' Guide; Wizards of the
Coast, Renton, Washington.
3. Success of fantasy sci-fi card game is magical; by Georgia Pabst;
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, August 6, 1995.
4. Under the Spell of 'Magic' by Aimee Miller; Washington Post;
7-27-94.
5. Magic: The Gathering -- Deckmaster's Instruction book that comes
with the cards.
A notation on my footnote numbering system: When you see numbers like
2/17, the first number represents the reference material used and the
second number indicates the page number.
_________________________________________________________________
Information on how to get a 4 color copy of this report is available
from --
Logos Communication Consortium, Inc.
P.O. Box 173, Oak Creek, WI 53154
E-Mail -- dlbrown@execpc.com
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------->
The next thing that we'll heard is that playing Battletech leads to
selling your soul to Lucifer...:~)
D. Rodriguez (again)
"HEY! No step on flowers, stupid ape!"
-Moonspinner
lupus Fianna Galliard
Keeper of the Land, High Park Sept, Toronto
... May the yuletide log slip from the fire and burn your house down.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: Fundy Silliness 2 [1/5]
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:31:08
EID:07c4 222463e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb629
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 1 of 5...
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------->
This is the second anti-gaming piece that I will type in for the
Net's general amusement. This one is older than I originally
thought, being from the year 1980. This one is somewhat well argued
and reasoned but possesses all the typical anti-gaming material
(after awhile you will begin to see the resemblances between these
articles). It is not as bad as the next article will be for being
emotionally charged.
DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS LECTURE (16 September 1980)
by the Rev. James R Cotter
Before we enter into tonight's discussion, I would like to begin
with a word of Prayer: Dear heavenly Father, as we are gathered here
this evening, we ask that you send your Spirit to us so that we may
fully understand the rich life that you intend us to lead. Amen.
(Nice. I guess he needed to start with a prayer so as to protect
him from the "evil" of what he's about to discuss. - Wolfie)
I am not going to stand before you today and tell you that I don't
think you should play this game, Dungeons and Dragons. That would
be as foolish as walking into a bull fighting arena filled with
bulls and wearing bright, charasmatic red suit. I do intend to
point out what responsibilities you as Christians have in respect to
this game.
I have never played this game, (That much is obvious. - Wolfie) nor
do I feel that I will ever be able to play this game. (Not
imaginative enough, I presume. -Wolfie) My remarks are based on
what the inventor of this game has to say about it, my exposure to
youth playing this game, my experience at a Dragons Game Fest, and a
hodgepodge of other material that has been written about this game.
To ensure accuracy, I will generally limit my remarks to what is
written in these three manuals: _Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
Players Handbook, Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual, and the
Dungeon Masters Manual.
THE GAME:
Dungeons and Dragons, D&D, began as a spinoff of war games. IN the
late 1950's, and 60's, companies like Avalon Hlill and Simulations
Publications Inc. began marketing Gettysburg and Bismark games tht
duplicate actual battle situations in which the players can alter
the outcome.
In 1973, Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax began experimenting with a new
format for war games. Instead of the actual historical campaigns,
they added a new twist -- fantasy. (And the concept of character,
and character development. The use of mechanics by which a
character can improve its stats was the key innovation. Rather than
just directing battles, you got to control and decide the
personality of the character and define what s/he would do.
This is where "roleplaying" comes in, as opposed to simple
wargaming. -Wolfie)
With $1000 dollars and a basement, these two men started production
of this game. Initially they were turned down but later on in 1975
(after sales to colleges) they incorporated and became known as TSR
(Tactical Studies Rules). Somewhere in this time frame, Brian Blume
entered into the corporation and Arneson left. It is estimated that
D&D will gross $20 million this year. Next year, that figure is
expected to triple for this Lake Geneva, Wisconsin based company.
(My, my, this is an old article. I recently heard that T$R went
into receivership, probably due to waning popularity of AD&D through
competition by better RPGs. - Wolfie)
Dungeons and Dragons is an elaborate game in which each player
assumes that identity of the character he creates. His creature is
based on chance rolls of the dice. (Or by assignment through point
pools. I've used this optional system before, and certain other
games also use the point pool system as their primary - or only -
method of character creation. That way, you have control over what
you want your character to be. - Wolfie) The object of this game is
to maneuver these characters through an ongoing maze of dungeons
(tunnels) filled with monsters, magic, ambushes, and adventures in
search of treasure. (Uh-huh. Which is why games by other companies
are now more popular; you can do more than simply run around and
kill things. - Wolfie)
The game is designed to be played by two or more players, 12 years
old and up, plus a Dungeon Master. The Dungeon Master is also in
charge of the game. (DM is a trademark of T$R; other games use
either Game Master (GM) or Storyteller (ST) to denote the person
running the game. To those fundies reading this - no, the GM does
NOT "control" you; all s/he does is set the background and decides
what will happen when, if a character does this or that. It's up to
the players to decide what to do about any given situation; run,
fight, talk, whatever. - Wolfie)
After the characters are established, each person arms himself with
magical weapons, potions, spells, and magical trinkets (holy water,
garlic, etc.). As you travel through the dungeon, you encounter
many traps and wild creatures (monsters). Your only means of
defense is the magical powers which you bought and rolled the dice
for at the beginning of the game, and the magical powers and
strengths of those who are traveling with you. (Common amongst all
the systems I've seen and played. However, even in AD&D, you also
have more mundane weapons at your disposal. - Wolfie)
DIRECTIONS:
The following are what I see as direct violations of God's Holy
Word, and are several reasons why Christians cannot play the game.
1: SWORDS & SORCERY -- "Swords and sorcery best describe what this
game ia all about...so mind unleashing, that it becomes near
reality." Page 7 of the D&D Handbook.
A. Ref. "mind unleashing": Scripture expressly states that Christians are
to be constantly incontrol of their thoughts, of one mind with Christ, not
one that is unleashed. (Of course not. Then they might start
thinking for themselves and no longer be under the control of their
church masters. - Wolfie)
1. Romans 12:2--"Do not be conformed to this world but be
transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is
the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
2. II Corinthians 11:3--"But I am afraid that as the serpent
deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a
sincere and pure devotion to Christ." (Right. Can't have anything
else turn one's thoughts from the needs of the church. - Wolfie)
3. Philippians 4:7--"And the peace of God, which passes all
understanding, will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus."
4. Proverbs 23:7--"For as he thinks within himself so he is."
Over 2 700 years ago, the writer of Proverbs stated that a person is
exactly as his mind lets himself think he is. The point is: what
you think about determines who you are. Thoughts lead to attitudes
and attitudes lead to actions. (Probably the origin of the fundy
belief that gamers actually believe what they play. Unforutnately
for them, the only people who believe every stupid thing they're
handed from their masters are fundies. - Wolfie)
T&A+ACTION is the sequence. And 750 years later, Paul, under God's
inspiration wrote "Do not be conformed to this world but be
transformed by the _renewing of the mind_."
Because of our new birth in Christ, we are to no longer follow the
unleashed thoughts of the mind, to return is now even worse.
Philippians 2:1-3--"So if these is any encouragement in Christ, any
incentive to live, any participation in the Spirit, any affection
and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the
same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from
selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than
yourselves."
B: Ref. "swords and sorcery": The terms "swords and sorcery" bear
some defining. Sword refers to the power that you will wield in
this game and sorcery refers to the use of spells and the occult.
God's Word is very plain with respect to sorcery. (And again, the
tale of King Arthur as told by Malory falls into this category. In
fact, I can see a lot of commonality between this story and AD&D. -
Wolfie)
Isaiah 57:1-4--"But the righteous person...he will come through
safely...But you come here, you sorcerers....Aren't you children of
rebellion?" Malachi 3:5--"Then I will come to judge you and you will
be quick to testify against sorcerers....says the Lord of Host."
Acts 8:9-25--Tells the story of Simon, who was a practicing wizard.
He accepts the Lord and travels with the apostles, but when he sees
the miracles being done, he offers to buy them. Peter tells him
that he is so engaged with witchcraft that he can't really see these
things are from God. Peter tells Simon to repent and ask
forgiveness. Even though Simon believed in Christ, it was still
difficult to cast off some of his old thoughts and experiences.
Once one starts dabbling, it's even harder to let go. Revelation
22:14-16a--"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that thy may
have right of the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates
into the city, (Heaven) for without (in Hell) are dogs and
sorcerors, and whoremongers and murderers, and idolaters, and
whosoever loveth and maketh a life. I Jesus have sent mine angel to
testify unto you these things." Deuteronomy 18:9-14--"When you come
into the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn
to follow the abominable practices of these nations. There shall
(Sounds all like "sorcery" to me. - Wolfie)
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021 167/166
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: Fundy Silliness 2 [2/5]
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:47:09
EID:43c4 222465e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb62a
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 2 of 5...
not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as
an offering, anyone who practices divination, a soothsayer,or an
augur, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does
these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of these
abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before
you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For these
nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers
and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed
you so to do."
II GODS
"This games lets all of your fantasies come true. This is a world
where monsters, dragons, good and evil; high priests; fierce demons;
and even the gods themselves may enter your character's life." Page
7 of D&D Handbook. (I think the bitch here is that AD&D gods do
more in their game setting than YHWH has ever done. One god in the
Forgotten Realms scenario, Ilmater, is listed as being the "god of
the tortured" and his background states that he is prone to taking
the place of innocents being subjected to torture. I played a
cleric, Pelorus, who was loyal to this diety. And no, you stupid
fundies, _I_ don't "believe in" Ilmater. - Wolfie)
A Ref. term "gods":
Exodus 20:2-5a---"I the Lord am your God, who brought you out of
Egypt, where you were slaves. Do not have any other gods beside me.
Do not make an idol for yourself or any likeness of anything in
heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below ground
level. Do not worship or serve them, because I the Lord your God am
a jealous God."
Notice what is a violation of the first commandment:
a. When we believe in a god, not of a triune type.
b. When we fear, love, or trust in any person or thing as we should fear,
love and trust god.
There is not exception or allowance in gods for the sake of game
enjoyment. Jeremiah 7:5-8--"No, if you will really live right and
do good, if you will treat one another right, if you will not
oppress strangers, orphans, widows, or kill innocent people in this
place, or ruin yourselves by running after other gods, then I will
live with you in this place, in the land I long ago gave your
fathers to be theirs forever. But now you trust in lies that can't
help you."
B. In other sections the gods are referred to as "deity".
1 "It is well known to all experienced players...spells bestowed
upon them by their respective deities." Page 38 Dungeon Master
Handbook. (Of course, this only applies to the Cleric class. It
wouldn't make much sense to play a Cleric without having him/her
follow a diety of some sort, now would it? Other character classes
don't need to profess any beliefs at all. - Wolfie)
2 "Each cleric must have his or her own deity..." Page 38
Dungeon Master Handbook. (No shit. - Wolfie)
3 "THe deity (you the DM 'Dungion Master') will point out all of
the transgressions..." Page 39 Dungeon Master Handbook.
(Roleplaying again. If you're not going to obey whatever it is some
god wants you to do, then don't play a cleric. - Wolfie)
There can be no doubt that this is a blatant violation of the First
Commandment. (Oh, please. Like players go home and start to open
up shrines to AD&D gods. - Wolfie)
III MAGICAL POTIONS AND SPELLS
"A study of the spells usable by clerics will convey the main
purpose of the cleric...note that all spells must be spoken or read
aloud...clerics can employ a fair number of magic items including
most potions, clerical and "protection" scrolls, most rings, some
wands, rods, and staves....." page 20 D&D Players Hand Book.
"Magic users draw upon arcane powers in order to exercise their
profession...He or she must memorize and prepare for the use of each
spell, and its casting makes it necessary to reabsorb the
incantation by consulting the proper book of spells..." page 25 D&D
Players Handbook.
A. Ref. Use of "Magic and Spells": Scripture is quite clear that
the use of magic and spells is forbidden. It is looked upon by God
as an "Abomination" and must not be done by the Christian, even in a
game. (This guy sounds like he believes that AD&D magic is "real".
- Wolfie) Isaiah 47:9-15--"These two things shall come to you in a
moment, in one day; the loss of children and widowhood shall come
upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and the
great power of your enchantments. You felt secure in your
wickedness, you said, "No one sees me"; your wisdom and your
knowledge led you astray, and you said in your heart, "I am, and
there is no one besides me." But evil shall come upon you, for which
you cannot atone; disaster shall fall upon you, which you will not
be able to expiate; and ruin sahll some on you suddenly, of which
you know nothing. Stand fast in your enchantments and your many
sorceries, with which you have laboured from your youth; perhaps you
may be able to succeed, perhaps you may inspire terror; you are
wearied with your many counsels; let them stand forth and save you,
those who divid the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who at the new
moons predict what shall befall you. Behold, they are like stubble,
the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the
power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to
sit before! Such to you are those with whom you have laboured, who
have trafficked with you from your youth; they wander about each in
his own direction; there is no one to save you." Psalms 106:
34-39a---"They did not destroy the peoples, as the Lord commanded
them, but they mingled with the nations and learned to do as they
did. They served their idols, which became a snare to them. They
sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured
out innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters; whom they
sacrificed to the idols of Canann; and the land was polluted with
blood. THus they became unclean by their acts.
Ref. "Magic Items": The secion I quoted only mention a few of the
magical items that are used. Others that are need are: Holy/Unholy
water, garlic and wolves bane. All of these are part of the ancient
witchcraft practices of the early civilization, as well as when
Jesus walked the earth. (I think Excalibur counts as a rather nifty
"magic item". - Wolfie) Again these are forbidden by the Lord.
Isaiah 3:18-23--"In that day the Lord will take away the finery of
the anklets, the headbands, and the crescents, the pendants, the
bracelets, and the scarfs, the headdresses, the armlets, the sashes,
the prefume boxes, and the amulets; the signet rigns and nose rings;
the festal robes, the mantles, the cloaks, and the handbags, the
garments of gauze, the linen garments, the turbans, and the veils."
C. Ref. "spell books": Today you can enter any hobby store and
purchase books on spell casting. One book written by Philip
Emmons Isaac Bonewits, the only person to have a B.A. from
University of California in magic, _Authentic Thaumaturgy-A
Professional Occultist on Improving the Realism Of magic Systems
used in Fantasy STimulation Games._ D&D books themselves contain
spells ranging from blessings ("to increase the strength of an
individual"0, to augury (divination-"spell seeks to divine
whether an action in the immediate future will be for the
benefit of or harmful to the party"), to commune (contacting of
his or her divinity), to speak with the dead (necromantic), to
raising from the dead as well as the Resurrection (which is a
spell that is able to restore life and complete strength to the
person). All of these spells are found on pages 43-53 of D&D
Players Guide. Leviticus 19:26a---" You shall not practice
augury or witchcraft."
(Again, this bonehead sounds like he believes that people really
cast spells while playing. Whatta maroon. All you do is say that
your character wants to cast it; you don't have to do anything
beyond that, besides roll dice and see if it works. - Wolfie)
D. Ref. "words spoken": "Most spells have a verbal component and so must
be uttered." page 40, D&D Players Handbood. (All that means is that
you can't cast a spell with a verbal component in a place cloaked
with a Silence 10' Radius spell, or if you're struck dumb somehow.
Similarly, you can't cast a spell with a material component if your
character doesn't have whatever material it is that's listed along
with the spell. YOU don't have to have anything. - Wolfie)
Ephesians 5:6--"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it
si because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons
of disobedience." If you believe it is just a game, then to use the
owrds would be foolish and not to be done. (What words? The
closest I've ever seen to a spell having actual words go with it,
was a joking suggestion by a friend that, since the Sleep spell was
only really good against Kobolds, that the wording should be "Sleep,
Kobold, sleep." - Wolfie)
E. Ref. "Draw upon arcane powers": "Cleric spells, including the
druidic, are bestowed by the gods....". Pg. 40 D&D Players
Handbook. The books themselves openly admit that the source and
origin of the power is not from God but from something/somewhere
else. (WHAT power? - Wolfie) II Thessalonians 2:9-10---"The coming
of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power
and with pretend signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception
for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth
and so be saved." Satan has these types of powers and uses them to
keep people from knowing the truth. To know the truth is to know
Jesus Christ as
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: Fundy Silliness 2 [3/5]
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:01:10
EID:bfc5 22246820
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb62b
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 3 of 5...
your Lord and Saviour and to spend time studying his word. To live
a life that totally trusts on Him for all that you need. A real
problem for the Christian is that in requestion spells, or
recuperating from a spell, you are to pray and meditate. Realize
who you are praying to. (What praying? What power? Yeesh. -
Wolfie)
F. Ref. "prayer": "Clerical spells...are bestowed by the gods, so
that the cleric need but pray for a few hours...." pg. 40 D&D
Players Handbook. "CLeric desires third through fifth level spells,
the minions (angels, demigods, or whatever) will be likely to
require the cleric to spend some 2 to 8 days in prayer, fasting, and
contemplation of his or her transgressions, making whatever
sacrifices and atonement are necessary..." pg. 38 Dungeon Master.
"Spell recovery..requires about the same period of time. In order
to pray and meditate..." Pg. 39 Dungeon Master.
As Christians, we are commanded to pray. We are to "pray
without ceasing" (I Thess. 5:17), but we are to pray as Jesus
taught us. We are to pray only to God our Father, and ask for
things in His name and according to His will. Revelation
19:10--"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to
me, "you must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your
brethern who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God."" (Again,
this guy is out in the ozone. All you do is say your character
would like to pray before beddy-bye time, and if it's possible, he
does. You don't have to indicate anything beyond that. - Wolfie)
Psalms 19:14---"Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of
my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my rock and my
redeemer."
Matthew 6:7--"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the
Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many
word."
Matthew 21:22--"And whatever you ask in prayer, you will
receive, if you have faith."
Romans 10:1--"Brethern, my heart's desire and prayer to God for
them is that they may be saved."
Job 22:27--"you will make your prayer to him, and he will hear
you; and you will pay your vows."
Ephesians 6:18--"Pray at all times in the spirit, with all
prayer and suplication. To that end keep alert with all
perseverance, making supplication for all the saints."
Spells and everything there connected are not for the Christian.
May say it is make believe and just fun and nothing will happen.
When dealing with a force stronger than you, Satan, you will have no
guarantees except God. I have talked to many people who are
junkies, not one started off with the idea of ending up a junky--all
thought it would not happen to them--they were different. They all
underestimated the power of the drug. (*Snort*. No worse a "drug"
than the bible. And certainly better than sitting around watching
daytime soaps in the ol' doublewide all day. - Wolfie)
G. Ref. "Conjure earth elementals" pg. 44 Dungeon Master There is
a satanic worship group that meets in Santa Barbara, and part of
their activities is to conjure up earth elementals. They do this by
praying and by using spells and "magical items". I Samuel expressly
forbids this type of action. The account of the witch of Endor (I
Samuel 28:7-20) states that any relationship of this nature is
action unbecoming to a child of God.
IV Death
"The character faces death in many forms. The most common death due
to combat, is no greater matter in most cases, for the character can
often be brought back by means of a clerical spell or an alter
reality or wish." pg. 15 Dungeon Master. (No kidding. The
prospect of losing a character that one worked hard to develop
simply adds a bit of "risk" into a game. If you don't want a
character to die, don't make stupid decisions. - Wolfie)
A. Ref. "Resurrection": As stated in the section on spells, there
are individuals who have "power" to raise from the dead. (Yeah; but
they have to be really high level characters in order to get the
spell. - Wolfie) Death--with its sting and fear are of no
consequence because it can be overcome without much difficulty.
Resurrection is referred to as "the revival of a character after its
death, by magical means". pg. 229 Dungeon Master.
When referring to resurrection, the book mentions "ring of
regeneration", "rod of resurrection", and spells of "resurrection."
The players are also free to by the life of an individual by paying
the Dungeon Master. (Gee, no one's paid me yet to save their sorry
hides. I think he's confused here; it isn't the GM you pay actual
money to; most high-level clerics in the AD&D world demand payment
for spells, and the higher the spell level, the higher the price.
After all, a cleric can only have so many spells per day
ready-to-use. And the character pays out of his imaginary money
pool to get healed by non-player characters (NPCs, run by the GM).
If the character and/or his fictional friends doesn't have enough
gold, and there isn't a character in the party with the requisite
spell who is willing to resurrect for free, the character dies.
Period. - Wolfie)
Genesis 3:4-6--"But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not
die. For God Knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened
and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So when the woman
saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to
the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she
took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband,
and he ate."
In a close examination of this passage, Satan tells Eve that there
is no such thing as death, that it was nothing more than a 'scare
tactic' used by God to keep them from eating from this tree. A
common tactic of Satan is to deny death. Galatians 4 and Colossians
2 caution us not to be take in by the spirits and their vain
arguements. Think of a young man, who runs into a flaming house and
rescues two children. As he attempts to rescue the thrid, the house
collapses and he dies. Do we look down at what he did and mock it;
of course not. Yet Christ died that we might live, and be raised
from the dead. Here is a game that mocks it and makes light of His
death. It attempts to poke fun at God's plan of salvation. (Oh,
give me a break. - Wolfie) How do you suppose Christ feels? (Dead
on his feet? - Wolfie) There was a reformation that began with
disputes of this nature, and yet we toy with it. Read I Corinthians
15 and rediscover what the resurrection of Christ really means and
why it should be honoured.
RIGHTEOUS LIVING
Is it all right for me to play a sexual fantasy game? No, because
it is not pleasing to God. (Yeah. He hates to see people having
fun and using their imaginations. - Wolfie) Is it all right for me
to play a game which is satanic and has many roots in the occult?
No, because it is not pleasing to God. We are commanded to live a
righteous life. (Again, because the big sky daddy hates to see
people having fun and exercising their brains - thinking and
imagining is, of course, evil and rooted in the occult, isn't it? -
Wolfie)
Matthew 5:48--"You, therefore, must be perfect, as you heavenly
Father is perfect." (How hubristic. - Wolfie)
I Timothy 6:3-5--"If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree
with the sound words of our Lord Jesus and the teaching which
accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit, he knows
nothing; he has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes
about words, which produce, envy, dissension, slander, bae
suspicions, and wrangling among men who are depraved in mind and
bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain."
Deuteronomy 18:9-14--"When you come into the land which the Lord
your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable
practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you
anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who
practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a
charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever
does these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of
these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out
before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For
these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to
soothsayer and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has
not allowed you so to do."
Deuteronomy 7:26--"And you shall not bring an abominable thing
into your house, and become accursed like it; you shall utterly
detest and abhor it; for it is an accursed thing."
Matthew 22:37--"and he said to him, "You shall love the Lord
your God with all you heart, and with all your soul, and with all
your mind."
Galatians 5:19-23--"Now the works of the flesh are plain:
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.11+
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666 322/739
SEEN-BY: 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86 380/64
SEEN-BY: 381/900 382/92 388/1 393/69 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50
SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 246/1002 1 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: Fundy Silliness 2 [4/5]
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:12:11
EID:cbc4 22246980
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 32ceb62c
TID: GE 1.11+
>>> Part 4 of 5...
immortality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity,
strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit,
envy, durnkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned
you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the
kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self
control; against such there is no law."
Here are quotes that people have made about D&D:
a) "It's a chance to sit in the dark, drink beer, and act wicked."
(Heh. Teenyboppers. - Wolfie)
b) "D&D is an alternate reality where you can release your
frustrations, kill someone, and not get into trouble."
(Well, of course. No "killing" is really going on, and it's usually
the "good guys" killing the "bad guys". Unless, of course, the
player wants his character to do something dumb, and gets whomped.
- Wolfie)
c) "It's a chance to create your own world...and a social hierarchy
populated with people and monsters."
(Ooo. Can't have that, now, can we? Ooo. - Wolfie)
d) "Advanced D&D in unquestionably 'humanocentric' with semi-humans
and humanoids in various orbits around the sun of humanity. Men are
the worst monsters...the 3D's of demi-gods, demons, and devils are
enough to strike fear into most characters, leat alone when the very
gods themselvse are brought into considertion." (Yeah, the one thing
I find boring about AD&D; all the player character races are too
human. I prefer games in which you get to play characters with a
much more different viewpoint. - Wolfie)
There seems to be an inherent contradiction in the lives that we as
Christians profess, in which we indulge our fantasy while playing
D&D. It is extremely difficult to understand why anyone who has
been born again and is livnig in Christ would want to portray Satan
or be active in the things that he does. (I challenge any fundy to
give concrete evidence that Satan is behind ANY RPG. And simple
dislike of T$R as a company doesn't count. - Wolfie)
Conclusion
I Peter 5:8--"Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil
prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."
A warning from Peter telling us to be on the alert for a "roaring
lion," but at times Satan disguises himself and becomes a cute
cuddly kitten. That's what he had done in the game Dungeons and
Dragons. Paul recognizes this in his letter to the Ephesians.
(ROFL! - Wolfie)
Ephesians 6:10-13--"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the
strength of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that you may
be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not
contending against flesh and blood but against the principalities,
against the powers, against the world rulers of this present
darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly
places. Therefore, take the whole armour of God that you may be
able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.:
Stand Firm in God's Word. Take your lead from it and use it as your
source of wisdom. To the Glory Of God.
Dungeons and Dragons: Only a Game ?
published by Pro-Family Forum, PO BOX 8907 Fort WOrth Texas 76124
((817)531-3605).
What is Wrong with Role-Playing or Fantasizing?
Some mistakenly believe that role-playing is merely acting out a
character. Much more is involved. Psycho-drama techniques (the
root of role-playing) were introduced in the early 1900's by Dr.
Jacob L. Moreno, contemporary of Freud. He said his objective was
to develop a "positive religion." His idea was that if you can "play
a role" -- for instance, the role of God -- and develop that role
and stop its playing at will, you will gegin to learn how not to be
possessed by that role. He said: "The only way to get rid of the
God syndrome is to act it out."
What is the "positive religion" that Moreno envisioned? The
religion that man is all-powerful, capable of answering all
questions and solving all problems apart from any Supernatural Being
--more popularly known as Humanism. Read his statement again. Then
consider its application to D&D and