God Damned Fundies!
|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: ?
|Date: 06 Jan 97 09:28:05
EID:8d62 22264b80
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d111b75
REPLY: 1:221/1503 32CC929F
Hello Ronald!
Ronald Vass wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
[replying to your incredible tactless guesswork concerning
Michael's sick wife]
MM> You really are a vicious jerk, aren't your?
RV> Can't appear to be sucking up to Mike, now can I?
RV> Or was it the posible happening to someone other then Mike
RV> himself that grab your chain. ie:his wife.
RV> If I've step over the line, I'm quit sure Mike will gladly,
RV> with great finesse and pose, knowing of his literary style,
RV> cut me down to size, and boot my ass over the fence.
RV> It will also be { his }-Right- to do so.
What 'grabbed my chain' was your naked cruelty - but then you
actually (unwillingly?) gave your motive away in another msg:
RV> I will await with baited breath, for the evidence of a soul.
This is only too true. BAIT is your prime mover, and SOUL seems
to be an alien commodity to you... regardless of how much you
hurt your correspondents. I will bet 'Empathy' and/or 'Draw the
Line' is not embroidered on any of your shirt pockets.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 06 Jan 97 13:08:21
EID:995d 22266900
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d111b71
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32cf75bd
Hello Gwenny!
Gwenny the Pooh wrote in a message to Sue Armstrong:
SA>> his consistency, and from what Becke has mentioned, I can't see any
SA>> evidence at all that he does NOT mean what he says when he spouts
SA>> his vitriol about peoples he seems to hold responsible for his own
SA>> failings.
SA> Yes; and notice her personal opinion of him isn't very high,
SA> either.
GtP> You know, everyone got pissy because Sean was posting about
GtP> Becke when she wasn't here to defend herself. . .even though
GtP> she was over in IRC where Sean couldn't defend HIMSELF. .
GtP> .and now I have posted a half dozen times that he is gone
GtP> and, therefore, cannot defend himself. Don't you think
GtP> it's time we just dropped this??
Would be an extremely good idea. The former 'lovers' could go
on with their separate lives, and Sue could emigrate to
North Korea (where the climate is balsamic and every person
has a deciding say in EVERYTHING - Bon voyage!).
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Al S.; Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 06 Jan 97 13:26:25
EID:4dc1 22266b40
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d111b76
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32cf8a9d
Hello Gwenny!
Gwenny the Pooh wrote in a message to Fredric Rice:
FR> Because you disagree with David about bone structure doesn't
mean
FR> that everything he says is subject to opinion.
GtP> Everything everyone says is subject to opinion. I
GtP> figure David's just mad cuz I wouldn't come and show him my
GtP> tits.
I am not too sure... he might actually be intimidated by the
possibility that you would spray Oxytocin all over him :-)
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Traditional Christian wea
|Date: 06 Jan 97 13:29:43
EID:d313 22266ba0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d111b74
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32cf911c
Hello Gwenny!
Gwenny the Pooh wrote in a message to Dave Hamilton:
MM>> Yes, I have eaten fresh home-made pasta - in a friend's house
MM>> - and she is as proud and enthusiastic as you seem to be.
MM>> Sorry to admit I still find it rather blah on it's own - about
MM>> as exiting as 'a nice bowl of oatmeal porridge' :-)
DH> Hey, watch it! Where I live, at this time of year porridge is
DH> attractive. It's food AND heat.
GtP> Good. Someone else who likes oatmeal.
Honestly, how CAN you? On the reverse side of wall paper, fine.
As poultrices on the legs of sick horsies, fine. But in your
mouth, yech!!!
This is one kind of calories I would rather starve than eat.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: xtian snobbishery
|Date: 06 Jan 97 11:40:12
EID:39d3 22265d00
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32d138fc
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32cf8242
Gweeny Poohpooh saith:
GtP> Why should I feel anything.
Why shouldn't you feel anything. Sounds like you DO feel something.
GtP> idea of alcohol being evil is a somewhat recent
Oh? You just admitted you don't know scriptures too well.
GtP> where else would they store it besides the food area?
Uh, how about in the sanctuary itself, like a bottle next to every
hymnal.
BS> roles, the gay community?
GtP> About time.
About time? "Some" have been doing it for centuries.
You seem to be awfully wet behind the ears.
BTW, I meet sarcasm with sarcasm.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: Satan
|To: Arthur Barnes
|Sub:
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:00:23
EID:d7c9 22246000
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 cfa77277
REPLY: 1:106/7315.0 32ccf274
Wasn't it 02 Jan 97 when "Arthur Barnes" wrote to "All"?
So, Arthur... you said...
AB> You know, Christians really get to me sometimes. This
AB> morning, some preacher guy was on and he decided that
AB> Christians needed to relook at what holiness means. He was
AB> way off... I forgot where the word came from, but it
AB> originally meant (well Holy did anyway) "other". It had
AB> nothing to do with morals and how good someone was. I laughed
AB> the whole time he talked!
Christians are one of our greatest sources of comedy ;-)
From the quill of Satan...
... Decaffinated coffee? What the hell's the POINT!?
--- PPoint 2.02
* Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Scientific appreciation.
|Date: 05 Jan 97 07:11:10
EID:4e55 22253960
MSGID: 1:207/212 305e28d4
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ca6cf4
On (01 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Laurie Appleton...
RS> Why do you hold a double-standard on corrections between
RS> publication issues? Have you checked to see if EB publishes a
RS> general disclaimer at the front of each edition that both claims
RS> that the current edition replaces previous editions, and
RS> subsequent editions will replace the edition you are reading?
I'd *like* them to publish a retraction from something they published in
the 1960's or 70's. But it ain't bloody likely.
... Purrinoia: Fear that the cat is up to something...
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:34:20
EID:0f8e 22255440
MSGID: 1:207/212 cd67ad59
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32cbf703
On (01 Jan 97) Sue Armstrong wrote to Al Schroeder...
AS> I know Becke has off and on been in hard financial positions herself,
AS> also.
SA> So's Paul. But of course, Sean won't see that; he probably thinks
SA> Becke chose Paul simply BECAUSE he's deeply in debt .. a twisted
SA> logic if I've ever seen one.
Being in bad money situations has a strong effect on someone - it can
mess up your judgement completely.
... Heck is a place for people who don't believe in Gosh.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Enlightenment
|Date: 05 Jan 97 18:55:44
EID:d578 222596e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 85b8d846
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 32cb3b45
On (01 Jan 97) Doug Lee wrote to Sue Armstrong...
DL> Tho' it's heartening to hear that baldness isn't a factor.
Nothing is really a factor to true love.
... Are "Watch Out For Children" signs birth control ads?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Puget macarena
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:17:30
EID:58f4 22255220
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32d192b2
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 01115b90
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Fredric Rice, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 02
Jan 97 16:38:08:
sh> Here is the answer I gave Shelby Sherman.
sh> I repeat it in case you missed it.
FR> Do you honestly think you're winning brownie points with your gods for
FR> failing to provide _rational_ answers to even the simplest of
FR> questions, Steve?
Stop being evasive and answer the question.
... Fredric Rice's obfuscatory ramblings continue to mystify me
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Actors & Their Roles for $400
|Date: 06 Jan 97 05:58:38
EID:a565 22262f40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7343f5b9
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d0b024
On Jan 05 13:45 97, Joe Shedlock of 1:116/17 wrote:
JS> Hmmn, I don't know too much about Sonny as a Congressman.
JS> He apparently hasn't done anything really stupid or the
JS> media would have jumped on him.
No, he knows better. He's been under public scrutiny for too
long. As a matter of fact, he was the person who coined the
phrase: "Somebody tell Newt to shut up."
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Re: Pray Contest
|Date: 01 Jan 97 21:19:16
EID:672e 2221aa60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcb3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
RS@> : So it's good that those children starve to death or are
RS@> : burned to death, according to some Deity you know of? Isn't
RS@> : that cruel?
CP> We may not know WHY it happens, how ever it MUST be for some greater
CP> good or it would not happen.
Why? because some old book says so?
It's fine for children to starve, to be tortured, to be abused, to
be neglected, to die, because it's a happy happy joy joy thing in
the end?
Fuck off and get some humanity.
... "Kid, you and I have got to talk...NOW!" - Aahz
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: "Atheists who do no good"
|Date: 02 Jan 97 02:45:38
EID:5ebb 222215a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcb4
REPLY: 1:101/525.0 32c0c2c4
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
LW> Why not pay attention to the best a belief system has to offer rather
LW> than the mediocre and worst parts?
Perhaps because, in the case of Christianity... the adherents seem to
ignore the best parts and concentrate on who they can hurt and
discriminate against, and other such loving pursuits?
Disagree? Okay, fine. Show me a Christian who has absolutely no
qualms with gays, abortions, assisted suicides, sex outside of
marriage, and the host of other "sins" they're so often telling
us of.
Then show us there are enough such people *in* Christianity as a
whole to convince us not to think that a Christian should be
presumed guilty until proven innocent.
I'll wait... but I won't hold my breath.
... "From the author of the best selling horror novel, "The Bible"...."
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 02 Jan 97 08:41:42
EID:6b43 22224520
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcb5
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32c7f26a
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DC> And the TRVTH is what? Iron axeheads floating? A global flood?
DC> Dead men walking? The sun standing still?
NC> The truth is something that has endured like the Bible has,
NC> should at least be considered.
Why? Just because something is old doesn't mean it is worthy
of respect.
... STUPIDITY is NOT a handicap...park ELSEWHERE!
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 02 Jan 97 08:44:22
EID:febb 22224580
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcb6
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32c8054e
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Quoting Nate Cookson to Gwenny the Pooh <=-
NC> ""Abortion stops a beating Heart""
GtP> Steak stops a beating heart.
NC> Gee whiz, you don't really mean that do you!! All those folks
NC> dropping dead over Big Mac's!!! And to think I had steak last night!!
Are you really this stupid, or are you just pretending very well?
I'm not sure, because your other messages support the first
position.
... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 02 Jan 97 08:46:18
EID:febb 222245c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcb7
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32c803e4
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
NC> Yeppers!!! All living things do respond to outside stimuli don't
NC> they... Emphasis on living... ;-}
GtP> Now, are you going to stop eating, just because of this?
NC> nope not likely... We still have to eat to live don't we...
Yes, but we don't need to eat flesh. You can live a perfectly
happy life as a vegetarian.
So apparently, it's okay for you to kill for your convenience,
but not for someone else to do the same thing.
Nice double standard.
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 02 Jan 97 08:50:38
EID:ee10 22224640
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcb8
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32c93044
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
NC> Why must we "prove" God exists? There are many things in life
NC> that "exist" but we don't have the expertise yet to discern
NC> them? Many years ago, no one could prove that a atom existed...
Irrelevant. Far enough back, there was no reason to suspect they
did - and people weren't claiming it. (Note that the earlier
'atomist' hypothesis had nothing to do with atoms as we know
them.)
Severl folks, however, *are* claiming that gods exist. Therefore,
they must be doing so either because they're stupid enough to
fall for fairy tales - or they have some evidential reason to
support the claim.
Fine. Provide the evidence.
Note that this is *not* proof we ask for - but evidence. Simple
enough, right? Unless you are the sort to fall for fairy tales.
NC> Maybe it isn't that God doesn't exist... Maybe it's just that
NC> you can't at this time discern (for what ever reason)
Fine. But you apparently can. So show us the special organ you
use to do this.
NC> You can't see the air.. but that doesn't stop you from
NC> breathing now does it?
Ever heard the term "observe"? What about "evidence"? Nope,
guess not.
MG> done is givne evidence that that god exists. Until
MG> you do, your answers are going to be ridiculed.
NC> I doubt anything said on this echo would prove his existence
NC> to you.....
He said "evidence", stupid, not "proof".
... Feel free to try our primordial soup & salad bar-Biopoesis Restaurant
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Look Who is Insulted?
|Date: 02 Jan 97 09:10:08
EID:582c 22224940
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcb9
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32c980a4
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DW> You Canucks can't even get winter right. :)
SA> So who wants winter done right? I could do without snow .. :)
Gimme 12 feet. I want 12 feet. ;)
... And in a strange turn of events, the cat was electrocuted
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: MY SUMMER WEEKEND
|Date: 02 Jan 97 09:28:52
EID:2527 22224b80
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcba
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32c980b8
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
SA> Frankly, I don't see the point in "open" marriages. If both (or
SA> one) agree to run around, then why bother getting married under ANY
SA> ceremony, religious (of any faith) or civil?
How about this?
I commit to loving, to caring for, to supporting, to nursing,
to all the things, little and big, one does for a spouse. That
is why I marry her; to show her that commitment, and to make
it real for myself; not just a fun thing that will vanish at
the first signs of trouble.
That I can, or she can, have other sexual liasons is then a
matter of simply whether we choose to add an element of spice,
of curiosity, of exploration, to our love lives.
(Shouldn't have said "I" and "our"... I ain't into the marriage
thing, personally... but I can understand its appeal for some,
even in the open marriage variety. ;) )
... "Whatever gets her whinny[sic] ass through the night." - Jim Staal
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 09:35:46
EID:4db3 22224c60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcbb
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32c980b9
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
SA> It isn't. Debunked. And I'd like to know from others on this echo
SA> who had to have themselves "proven" to be the better qualified
SA> simply because they were white.
Better qualified? Don't know about that, but...
Canada has, supposedly, a set of laws that require "no discrimination"
at least based on, race and/or gender. Take a trip down to your
local Employment Canada office sometime and read the boards.
There are endless jobs there which state, as part of the
requirements, that the applicant be female. And no, I'm not
talking live-in nurse, I'm talking, say, receptionist.
Fine; there are some jobs which are exclusively male-oriented,
too. Most of the warehousing jobs want big, husky men, and
the idea of a woman applying, as a rule, is... regarded as odd.
Now go look at some of the "goodies". Need to brush up on your
skills, maybe with a computer?
If you're a woman - there are programs.
If you're native - there are programs.
If you're disabled - there are programs.
If you're white male - Why aren't you out working, instead of sponging?
It's about the only thing that really ticks me with our governmental
setup. When they pass laws saying you can't exclude people based
on gender or race, and then tell a woman she can't apply to this
job, or a man he can't get that training... it is infuriating.
Mostly these balance, as I noted with the jobs. But with the
training programs, in my experience - if you're a white male,
forget it.
SM> extra jobs for women, minorities, the handicapped, and all the other
SM> protected groups you leftists cook up from time to time are going to
SM> come out of corporate profits? Surely you jest.
SA> ALL jobs come out of corporate profits. That's where PAYROLL comes
SA> from; no profits, no employees.
Much as I hate to... I'm going to *almost* agree with his point
here. If you bring umpteen million women, or others, into the
workforce, many of them will fill jobs that were previously or
would have otherwise been filled by men.
Is this bad? No. But his point seems to be exactly that - that
the more "others" in the work force, the less jobs going to the
white males.
The downside to this, of course... the reason white males are
hired less and less often for those positions... is simply that
ofttimes, you can pay a woman or a minority or a "gimp" less.
So the women and others are getting the jobs - and often
getting jobbed. ;)
SA> Oh? So no white male was ever a bumbling idiot on their job? No
SA> woman, minority, or handicapped person was ever better qualified
SA> than a white male?
One wonders what he thinks of Hawking? Surely the ultimate
example of just what a disabled person can still accomplish. ;)
... Ceci n'est pas une tagline.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: False Christian Scum [1/2]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 09:52:48
EID:4db3 22224e80
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cefcbc
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32c980bb
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
SA> Yawn. Big fat hairy deal. We also are required to have Social
SA> Insurance Numbers if we want to work here; citizens and landed
SA> immigrants alike. And anything about a SIN card holder can be found
SA> through their number; when you sign an application form, or put it
SA> on your resume (as IS required),
Excuse me????
Every employment office I've ever encountered has told me exactly
the same thing: the only time the employer needs your SIN is
*after* they have hired you, so they can deal with taxes and such.
SA> they can indeed check up on you if
SA> they so wish. You're even required to give your SIN if you want a
SA> movie rental card,
Not at any place I've ever been. Photo ID, yes, but never SIN.
SA> I doubt your motives. You are afraid to breed because of your
SA> supposed "disability" (and baldness ain't a disability), and so
SA> resent others for breeding, and wish them to stop because it bothers
SA> you.
I'm with him. As far as I'm concerned, about 60% of the world's
ills could be at least lessend drastically if people didn't
insist upon knocking each other up like some sort of demented
mink breeding gone wild.
... Never fold with an inside straight line like that. -- Marty Leipzig
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: "Atheists who do no good"
|Date: 04 Jan 97 22:26:12
EID:dd0d 2224b340
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32cefcb4
MSGID: 1:229/622 32ceda2c
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Kelsey Bjarnason to Lee Woofenden:
KB> Disagree? Okay, fine. Show me a Christian who has absolutely no
KB> qualms with gays, abortions, assisted suicides, sex outside of
KB> marriage, and the host of other "sins" they're so often telling us
KB> of.
That was supposed to be the ideal presented by the story of the
woman caught in adultery. Jesus as a perfect being was ostensibly
free of the need to judge others.
KB> Then show us there are enough such people *in* Christianity as a
KB> whole to convince us not to think that a Christian should be
KB> presumed guilty until proven innocent.
I doubt that can be done. One of the subtleties of Christianity is
that while there is no mechanism of a pathway of growth to enlightenment,
there is opportunity for anyone to be struck by a bolt of wisdom. I
just haven't ever seen it happen.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Coward!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 23:36:10
EID:11f4 2224bc80
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018be520
MSGID: 1:229/622 32ceea0a
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Fredric Rice to Dave Hamilton:
RS>> And I bet even the OED definition STILL means without a
RS>> belief in a Deity.
dh>> "atheism /n. the theory or belief that God does not exist."
FR> That definition is pretty inaccurate.
I agree. Just scooped the lonly def. out of the OEd for
Richard. It would befittig for the perspective normally
adopted by fundies.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 05 Jan 97 07:46:14
EID:43b5 22253dc0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cfb2a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Jan 97 15:47:26 Martin Goldberg wrote to Al Schroeder...
MG>> I cannot argue something for which I do not believe and have
MG>> presented a very tenuous scenario. It just seems to me,
MG>> that if I am wrong, and the soul real, then it would not be
MG>> attached to us in any way.
If that were true, there would be no ugly people alive.
At the first look in the mirror, their souls would flee.
Regards,
-=John=-
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
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|From: Jan deBoer
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: He Come de Judge
|Date: 05 Jan 97 07:59:52
EID:e0dc 22253f60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cfb2a1
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
On 03 Jan 97 10:03:02 Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...
DC> Your dogma statse that if you screw up, just a bit, you go
DC> to hell.
AS>
AS> Yeah, but He judges about the "little bit". We're not sure (at
AS> this point) whether he's a lenient judge or a strict one.
Since yer god is omnipotent, omniscient, omniverous, and other stuff
including all-knowing, he already knew every dirty little secret, every
lustful thought, every yield to temptation, evry transgression that you
ever even considered - long BEFORE you were even born.
Therefore, what's with this judgement nonsense? Either you myth-mongers
enjoy putting fear of a court appearance into into the minds of the
timid and gullible, or yer god is a psychopath who enjoys terrorizing
the inhabitants of his little ant farm.
We need only look at how 'christians' treat others to see that they take
the prospect of a future judgment about as seriously as they observe the
golden rule in business transactions, on the freeway or in a supermarket
lineup.
Regards,
-=John=-
--- wsOMR v1.20b [UNREG]
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: The Virgin Susie
|Date: 05 Jan 97 11:00:34
EID:564d 22255800
REPLY: 1:3603/210 18922814
MSGID: 1:229/622 32cf8a81
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
RC> On the bright side, at least sanity is -- if still a minority
RC> position -- at least a more strongly and commonly held position
RC> than throughout most of human history.
Leading us to conclude that it lacks its own inertia. Moderation
is a term that has always implied thought-and-response to me, but
in this forum "moderate" means "not-true."
As long as the majority people continue to think, we're in
pretty good shape.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Off topic??
|Date: 04 Jan 97 20:34:32
EID:df0b 2224a440
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cfd787
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DW> I don't expect anyone to like Heinlein (or any other writer)
DW> but it irks me to no end to hear opinions that can be shown to be
DW> untrue simply by reading Heinlein while awake.
Applause from a fellow fan. ;)
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Scientific theories.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 20:47:08
EID:973f 2224a5e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cfd788
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8888c1b3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
SS> One human skull in the same geological strata as a
SS> dinosaur would falsify evolution, knucklehead.
LA> That would do NO such thing, of course. It is not
LA> possibly to "FALSIFY" something that has been declared to be
LA> a FACT is it?
It wouldn't invalidate the process, but it would certainly
invalidate many of the conclusions drawn from the apparent
agreement between the theory and the evidence.
LA> Besides that evolutionists would simply talk
LA> about, "Reworked specimen", or a "stratigraphic leak" or "it
LA> fell in a crack" or simply a "tiny mystery" that will
LA> doubtless be "explained" eventually anyway!
If it was shown to be a bad specimen, then it was a bad
specimen, and means nothing. This is a problem for you?
SS> Now, tell me in your own words why evolutionary theory
SS> is not a valid scientific theory.
LA> Because it cannot be falsified.
Excuse? Why not? Sure, you can't invalidate the process, but
the theories?
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Kelsey Bjarnason
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Re: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 04 Jan 97 21:07:04
EID:febb 2224a8e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32cfd789
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32cd063c
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Quoting Nate Cookson to Jason Harmon <=-
NC> ""Abortion stops a beating Heart""
QF> But, so does a hamburger.
NC> Baby doesn't have much say in it.
JH> Does the cow have a say in it?
NC> you put cows on that same level you put humans?
Reread the salient points, as listed above, again.
... "Please don't be blinded by the truth!" -- Mike Salva (to David Rice)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Coward!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 00:41:14
EID:4eee 22260520
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73330537
MSGID: 1:229/622 32d04aa9
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
RS>>> And I bet even the OED definition STILL means without a
RS>>> belief in a Deity.
DH>> "atheism /n. the theory or belief that God does not exist."
JH> THAT is in the OED?
JH> Sounds more like Merriam Webster's.
It is, as the only definition, and it does stink, and i've got
four replies on it (as if I wrote it).
I shall write to their review board and see what I can start.
Looks to me that it works perfectly well if you're an
Anglican clergiman.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Arthur Barnes
|Sub: "flat earth" town
|Date: 06 Jan 97 01:10:38
EID:1429 22260940
REPLY: 1:106/7315.0 32ccf275
MSGID: 1:229/622 32d0510e
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Arthur Barnes to Bill Forseth:
AB> Todays education system does suck. I failed algebra 1 twice! Not
AB> because I'm stupid, I excel in all my other subjects.
Of course.
AB> The first
AB> time, I had a really incompetent teacher who ended up being fired at
AB> the semester. Everyone in that class failed at least once.
Ah, the instructor. And you didn't learn how to pass anyway.
AB> EVERYONE. When they got a new teacher, I passed. The second time
AB> was during summerschool. I had a decent teacher, but they taught us
AB> out of the same book (stupid Saxon book). The reason I failed that
AB> time was because they tested us with the Texas State Credit By Exam
AB> test. There were things on that test that weren't in the book.
Now the book. Don't they expect you to read anything but one
book, or to take responsibility for passing courses yourself?
AB> I decided the
AB> school can go screw itself because I'm going to get my credit by
AB> correspondance during the summer. They really need to get their
AB> acts together.
That ought to tell 'em. I'll bet they change their ways after you
do that.
AB> Oh, another thing they did. At the beginning of the
AB> year, we got our scheduals. I got all the honors classes I wanted.
AB> The funny thing is they had me in the advisory for mentaly
AB> challenged kids! I talked to the teacher and she let me go to my
AB> French teacher's advisory.
Quelle surprise. Had anyone met you when they drew this mistaken
assessment of you?
AB> The teacher went and had my schedual
AB> changed because the administration screwed it up the first time.
AB> Can you believe that? I put up with crap like that just about
AB> everyday.
Well, get used to it. Sounds like life in the real world to me.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Personal jabs
|Date: 04 Jan 97 02:26:14
EID:3a4a 22241340
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 32d0ace8
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Quoting DAVID RICE to DAVID WORRELL <=-
DR> I cannot imagine how this thread is in any way productive.
That depends on how you define productive.
>GtP> At least she isn't lying around at home whining
>GtP> about her love life.
DR> Hey! I resent that!
Be careful - you might get labelled as a small-dicked misogynist.
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 06 Jan 97 17:44:06
EID:44e2 22268d80
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32cf0f78
MSGID: 1:229/622 32d13afc
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
KD>> That "one" doesn't have any rights yet because they're not born yet.
KD>> It's that simple. Birth is the beginning of rights.
NC> This kind of logic is so stupid it's pathetic! Accoriding to
NC> this 5 minutes before it's birth, it's not human.. but as soon
NC> as the baby makes it out, it's human!! So what happen at that
NC> moment of Birth that made it more human than just before it was born?
Listen, YOU'RE the one who wants all the laws made. WE didn't
say they weren't stupid.
Did you read about the case near Ottawa in the last couple of
months where the woman shot her unborn fetus in the skull, inside
her womb, a day before birth?
It was tossed out of court. She was charged with attempted murder
but it was a simple formality, and the law was not challenged. It
states very clearly that the fetus was not a child.
It is because we have black-and-white lines at the insistence of
folks that believe we must have laws for everything that a case
like this has no room for negotiation.
The child survived, BTW.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Nate Cookson
|Sub: Carl Sagan
|Date: 06 Jan 97 17:50:50
EID:3302 22268e40
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 32cf120c
MSGID: 1:229/622 32d13cb1
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Nate Cookson to Martin Goldberg:
NC> I posted some information, studies are just begining in the area
NC> abortion and breast cancer. this should at the very least be
NC> "discussed" along with any other topic...
You posted no such information. You posted what is claimed to be
a review of existing literature by an unknown researcher. You did
not post your sources. You did not post enough information that
would give anyone a way to follow it up.
When considered with the rest of your postings, also unreferenced
and unfounded, your posting looked like the usual pack of lies
that drives honest people away from the church.
Folks that are honestly seeking answers to spiritual concerns
are often not willing to trade their integrity for lies in the
fashion that you have done.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 06 Jan 97 18:42:38
EID:5d54 22269540
MSGID: 1:229/622 32d147e5
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Carl Pollock to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
CP> MG@> We don't want bible quotes. We want to know spcifically why
CP> your god MG@> starves innocnet people to death.
CP> And how do I prove this point with out quoting bible text?
Nobody asked you to prove anything. Just tell us why God
starves innocent people to death. Do you know?
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Robertson & Mobutu
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:55:46
EID:4782 222466e0
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 03e2fd57
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:57:59 -0700
from: AMERICAN.ATHEISTS@listserv.direct.net
Subject: [Atheist] AANEWS for November 7, 1996
MOBUTO-ROBERTSON ~~ A CHRISTIAN ''DANCES WITH DICTATORS'' SAGA
The Chaos In Zaire Highlights Links Between Televangelist
Pat Robertson And A Thuggish African Dictator
**
When the "soft money" scandal linking President Clinton and the
Democratic National Committee to foreign interests like the powerful
Riady family hit , the media all but ignored similar ties involving
powerful televangelist Pat Robertson. While Robertson's Christian
Coalition was calling "foul" over a Buddhist temple fund-raiser which
funnelled money into DNC coffers, few people realized that Robertson's
International Family Entertainment, Inc. was a partner with the Riady
Family, the Indonesian dynasty which runs the Lippo Group, to market
television programming in China and other Asian countries. Now,
Robertson's international connections are once again highlighted due
to the avuncular preacher's links to Zaire's megalomaniac dictator,
Mobutu Sese Seko. To borrow a Christian Coalition phrase, Zaire is
now in "meltdown" following decades of strongman rule by Mobuto, and
ethnic civil war, along with the influx of over a million refugees
displaced by fighting in the eastern part of the country.
If anything, Mobutu is just another example of the penchant of
religious right leaders -- in this case Robertson -- to involve
themselves with figures and causes which represent the most repressive
social and political agendas.
The "Great Leopard"
A former army commander, Mobutu seized power in a 1965 coup and
immediately began to nurture a "cult of personality" around himself.
He ordered schools to replace Christian crosses with his portrait in
every classroom, and he appropriated the title of Mobutu Sese Seko
Kuku Ngfbendu Wa Za Banga, which roughly translated means "the all-
powerful warrior who, by his endurance and will to win, goes from
conquest to conquest leaving fire in his wake.." His promises of
African populism quickly turned sour. A tribal secret police force
was soon jailing and executing political dissidents, and money was
flowing from government coffers into foreign accounts belonging to
Mobutu and his cronies. Bizarre laws instructed the 40 million
Zaireans how to dress, even what names they could use. The Christian
Science Monitor notes in today's edition that "His influence is such
that many Zaireans fear him even when he is thousands of miles away.
A network of spies and secret police keeps residents in the capital
looking over their shoulders when they talk of the 'Great Leopard,' as
Mobutu is known."
Despite this, Mobutu served as a key U.S. ally on the African
continent during the cold war, and attracted the interest of both
foreign intelligence services and the American religious right. For
both groups, the dictator was seen as a check on socialist Angola;
both Zaire and the United States supported the rebel movement UNITA
under the leadership of Jonas Savimbi.
In the early 1980's, Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network was
already a key player in an alliance of business interests,
intelligence operatives and "private aid" networks propping up
"anti-communist" mercenary forces throughout the world, especially in
Latin America. Robertson was rubbing shoulders with this cabal of
freebooters, which included the Unification Church (Rev. Moon), John
Singlaub (World Anti Communist League) and paramilitary outfits like
the Civilian Military Assistance. CBN was beating the drums on behalf
of "contra" efforts in Nicaragua, and groups like Committee for a Free
Afghanistan which backed the Islamic Mujahadeen alliance against the
Soviet invasion of that country, and the Free Angola Committee which
boosted Savimbi.
When the Angolan government reached an agreement with foreign oil
interests including the giant Chevron firm, it was a major blow to
Robertson and the interests who had been using Mobutu and Zaire as a
rebel staging area. In 1986, Robertson was calling for renewed
support of UNITA, and joined with Howard Phillips' Conservative Caucus
to launch a boycott campaign against Chevron. Phillips was still a
Republican operative and was a key figure in the burgeoning religious
right movement, and was already well on the way toward embracing the
extreme Christian Reconstructionist dogmas that he holds today.
For his role in allowing Zaire to be used as a staging area for aid
to Savimbi, Mobutu became a cause celebre for Robertson and the
Christian right. But change was on the way, and with thaw in the cold
war even the U.S. State Department was growing concerned with Mobutu's
strongman rule . On April 24, 1990, Mobutu ("under pressure,"
according to news sources), ended single-party rule and began to
create the illusion of a pluralistic government, first by appointing
opposition leader Etienne Tshisekedi as prime minister, then quickly
replacing him with Leon Kengo.
Robertson stayed involved in Zaire through a Christian Broadcasting
Network outreach called "Operation Blessing," and a less-publicized
venture known as African Development Company. ADC operated a diamond-
mining project and forestry range on one of the government's
concession tracts, part of Zaire's $300 million annual trade in the
precious stone market. And Robertson became more of a mouthpiece for
Mobutu, a fact which prompted Dr. Makau Muta of the Harvard Law
School's Human Rights Program to declare that "Robertson is Mobutu's
biggest American catch."
By 1995, Robertson was part of a network of boosters for the
Zairean dictator which included a group of paid consultants,
religious right activists and intelligence operatives. In August of
1995, Robertson announced efforts to persuade the U.S. State
Department to lift its ban on granting Mobutu a visa, reversing a
policy which had been implemented two years earlier. The Washington
Post quoted State Department sources who insisted that contrary to
Robertson, "Mobutu hasn't changed...What he wants is a transition from
the second Mobutu republic to the third Mobutu republic."
The Post noted that "The long U.S. bill of particulars against him
(Mobutu) includes massive corruption, personal enrichment on a
spectacular scale at his country's expense, indifference to the
physical deterioration of what should be a prosperous country,
connivance at rearming the murderous Hutu militias of neighboring
Rwanda and repeated maneuvers to the frustrate the process of
transition to democracy that ht has promised to support."
A Clinton administration source told the Post that "Robertson's
hand is all over" the visa lobbying campaign. Also helping were some
other operatives with long-standing ties to Robertson groups and the
religious right. They included:
* Paul Erickson ~ political consultant and political director for
the 1992 primary campaign for Pat Buchanan.
* Jack Abramoff, former director of Citizens for America
(bankrolled by drugstore magnate Lewis Lehrman), one of the "private
aid" groups that was part of the Oliver North's operation to aid the
Nicaraguan contras, and a Board Member of "Towards Tradition," a
religious-conservative Jewish group that works closely with
Robertson's Christian Coalition.
Abramoff, like Robertson, was often an apologist for the former
apartheid regime in South Africa. While chairman of the College
Republican National Committee he traveled to South Africa in order to
forge relations with the extreme right National Student Federation.
And he produced the 1989 film "Red Scorpion," supposedly a loose
interpretation of the story of Jonas Savimbi; the movie was financed
in part by the then apartheid government of South Africa.
But Abramoff was involved even deeper in South African intrigue,
especially efforts to prop up the apartheid regime, portray Nelson
Mandela and the African National Congress as tools of international
communism, and support the role of the Inkatha (Zulu) Freedom Party.
Abramoff was involved in the International Freedom Foundation, founded
in 1986 as a Washington "think-tank," but according to some an
overseas asset of the South African National Defense Force and
intelligence service, BOSS (Bureau of State Security). Newsday
revealed that its investigation discovered: "A respectable Washington
foundation which drew into its web prominent Republican and
conservative figures such as Senator Jesse Helms and other members of
Congress, was actually a front organization bankrolled by South
Africa's last white rulers to prolong apartheid..." Involved in IFF
projects along with Abramoff were such Washington heavy-hitters as
Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.), Rep. Robert Dornan and presidential
candidate Alan Keyes.
Chaos in Zaire
Following thirty years of authoritarian rule by Mobutu and over a
decade of efforts by the American religious right to prop-up the
dictators public image, Zaire is in shambles. Inflation has soared by
nearly 100% in the last several months, and "ethnic cleansing" and
warfare is rampant between the Tusi and Hutu tribal groups. A
staggering amount of the country's wealth (one estimate is $10
billion) has been looted by Mobutu, who is recovering from prostate
surgery in Europe.
The human rights "Zaire Watch" charges that Mobutu "has used the
Rwandan refugee situation to prop himself up. His policies have
created serious tensions at the borders between Zaire, Rwanda and
Burundi. He has consistently used people who committed genocide in
Rwanda to destabilize Rwanda for the last year and a half. He has
also contributed to the crisis in Burundi by allowing Burundi rebels
to attack their country using Zaire as their staging base..."
Pat Robertson and other extreme political religious interests in
America may be President Mobutu's last and only hope to retain power,
or even find a place to settle if his regime is overthrown. The Swiss
have granted a passport to Mobutu since their banks hold an estimated
$4 billion of the autocrat's money, but most other European nations
are either lukewarm of hostile on the prospect of extending exile
status to the ailing dictator. He may not even return to Zaire,
preferring to remain at his palatial Mediterranean palace on the Cote
d"Azur in France.
Ironically, some analysts -- and even citizens in Zaire -- see a
Mobutu return as the only way to stabilize the country and "keep the
generals in line." Zaire may disintegrate into tribal provinces.
There is also the prospect of an international military-aid operation
involving French and even American troops; reports suggest, though,
that many Zaireans are resentful of the French who, they say, want to
bolster Mobutu's shaky rule. Regardless of the outcome, the Zairean
tragedy remains a massive violation of human rights, and another
example of Pat Robertson's problematic involvement with corrupt,
authoritarian political interests.
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|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Crab War
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:55:46
EID:d130 222466e0
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 9527286a
CROSS-POSTED FROM: I_UFO
From: "Ignatius A. Graffeo"
Original Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:17:27 EDT
The large interstellar cloud known as the
Crab Nebula has spawned a galactic army of helmet
crabs. Energy vortices in the area have changed the
frequencies of surrounding black holes into
Virtual Cornucopias. Huge amounts of discreet
ambrosia-like particles have saturated the
coronas of at least 10,000 nearby suns and perhaps
10 times as many planets. This species of crab is
said to be malignant, as opposed to the horseshoe
variety. The latter being a harbinger of good luck.
There are omninous signs in the Milky Way which
coincide on November 28. The Virtual Cornucopia
will spew millions of baby crabs on our own solar
system, thus darkening the Earth's skies for an
indeterminate amount of time. Many of the soft
shell varieties of the nebula crabs have been
described as the same species that invaded Zeta
Reticuli-2, millions of years ago and WNBC-TV
just last week.
Early warning signs of crab nebulae infestation
include mild headaches, sneezing, coughing,
vomiting, itchyness in the pubic area, shortness
of breath, a desire to shoot one-self in the foot
and loss of long-term memory. Not all of the
symptoms will manifest, but at least eight of them
will. Advanced stages of infection make the victim
easily open to suggestion, especially to apocalyptic
warnings, invasion by reptilian hordes, a "crabby"
disposition, uncontrollable appetites for crawfish
and a tendency to bite off the heads of other
infected individuals and suck out their brains.
It is this self-eradicating aspect of the disease
that leaves scientists optimistic about a cure. But
unfortunately for the victims, the final stages
of the infestation can be quite gruesome.
CENTER for CRUSTACEAN CONTROL
Crabokia, Croatia
Visit the WAY STATION
http://members.gnn.com/newspirit/station.htm
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|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Crackpots
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:55:46
EID:26d6 222466e0
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 50d60764
CROSS-POSTED FROM_ I_UFO
From: "Francisco Lopez"
Original Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:17:13 -0500 (EST)
From: ns@laban.astro.uu.se (Nils)
Organization: Uppsala University
Methods of Dealing With Crackpots:
=================================
1) Ignore them.
2) Sympathize. "I once believed that the sun orbited the Earth, but
the Big Bad Scientific Establishment crushed me"
3) Suggest alternate venues. "I don't know enough to criticize, but
you might want to talk to my good friend, who you can reach at
someone@unknown.edu, who'd just _love_ to hear about your ideas..."
(Note that "someone@unknown.edu" should NOT be the address of someone
you want to remain friends with.)
4) Plead insanity. "No, no, no, that's all wrong. The sun is moved
by Smurfs. You can't see them, because they're blue, and blend into
the sky,..."
5) Send them elsewhere. "I hear Congress is looking for projects
that defy all known science; they'd be very interested in hearing what
you have to say."
6) Dazzle them. "Oh, I see, you've resurrected the
Mitscherlich-Obermenschen-Mayer theory. You know, there was a very
interesting article in Scientific Bulgarian, sometime during the
1950s, or was it the 1960s, about the very same thing. If I remember,
though, they had to take into account the Terching-Quidley effect,
which you've neglected. You might want to read it; they come to the
same conclusions you do..."
-> Send "subscribe iufo " to majordomo@world.std.com
-> Posted by: Francisco Lopez
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Islam Unbound & Uncovered
|Date: 06 Jan 97 02:33:46
EID:9e88 22261420
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 b02dee2f
Ä Area: P_News ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
From: Odin@netline.net Date: 01-02-97 20:55
Subj: PNEWS: A Review: "Islam Unbound & Uncovered"
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
From: WELCOME 1997!
Subject: PNEWS: A Review: "Islam Unbound & Uncovered"
[*********PNEWS CONFERENCES************]
From: elazar
[Posted here in compliance with the FAIR USE DOCTRINE for educational
purposes. Not for commercial use. PNEWS recommends the
Jerusalem Post as an excellent and credible source of current information
and opinion about the Middle-East. Jerusalem Post January 2, 1997
Jerusalem Post Literary Supplement]
A...... "Religion Of War"
The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad
to Dhimmitude, by: Bat Ye'or. Translated from the French by
Miriam Kochan and David Littman. London, Associated
University Presses, and Cranbury, NJ, Fairleigh Dickinson
University Press. 522pp. Price not stated.
A Review by..... Dr. Mordechai Nisan
The examination of Muslim/non-Muslim relations in
Middle Eastern history since Islam's appearance is
a vast, complex, and controversial undertaking. The
subject has drawn the attention of Bernard Lewis,
Norman Stillman, Daniel Pipes, and other historians,
whose researches have opened up new vistas to probe
the problematical and precarious lives of Jews in Arab
lands. In the same domain of study, but from the Christian
perspective, scholars who represent their own national
minority communities have made valuable contributions:
Walid Phares writing on the Lebanese Christian Maronite
collapse, Vahakn Dadrian probing the Armenian genocide,
and Selim Naguib exposing the persecution of the Copts
in Egypt.
From another angle, the scholarly interpretation persists
concerning the "Golden Age" of (mythical or historical)
Muslim-Jewish symbiotic cultural flourishing in the
Middle Ages, this under the tolerant disposition of
magnanimous Islam toward its Eastern neighbors. The
recent study by Mark Cohen (Under Crescent And
Cross) argues this view, an interpretation that cannot be
bypassed, nor one that can be accepted as the ultimate
and complete validation of history.
This new book by Bat Ye'or, a sequel to her 1985 work
(The Dhimmi), is a bold exposition of Christian decline
under Islam in the Middle East, and fits the category of
revisionist historical scholarship. Its 10 chapters of
narrative history and 175 pages of documents comprise a
challenging discourse that weaves together the doctrine of
Islamic jihad and the tale of Muslim conquest, culminating
in the diminution, subjugation, emasculation, conversion,
massacre, and deportation of the indigenous Christians
who came under the rule of Muhammad's faithful.
The record of history is stark and cruel in describing the
slaughter and enslavement of Christians, from Syria to
Sardinia, from Bagdad to Bosnia, from Arabia to Andalusia.
The "sword of Islam" served the Muslims - first the Arabs,
later the Turks and Persians - in the unfolding drama of
conquest and rule. Churches were turned into mosques
and free peoples were demoted into oblivion as wide
stretches of Central Asia, the Orient, North Africa, and the
Balkans were absorbed into dar el-Islam (the realm of Islam)
from the 7th century to the 17th.
Dhimmitude is the Arabic-root term to identify the dehuman-
ized condition of Christians and Jews under the humiliating
domination of Moslem power. It signifies the obligation to
pay tribute, suffer indignities to person and property, and
submit to plunder and precariousness. Meanwhile, Islam
developed its cultural ambience and civilizational treasures,
as Bat Ye'or writes, "in the midst of conquered peoples,
feeding off their vigor and on the dying, bloodless body of
dhimmitude."
The novelty of this book (and of its predecessor) lies in
the rigorous conception of dhimmitude as the natural
consequence of the overarching and permanent structure
of mind and practice inherent within doctrinaire jihadic
Islam. Bat Ye'or has grasped that the underlying foundation
of war and the undying spirit of conquest are central
motifs in Islam. Some 13 percent of the Middle East
population were still Christian a century ago. Today only
some 2 percent are adherents of any Church.
Muslims see it as imperative to overwhelm non-Muslims
wherever and whenever possibile. Dhimmi nationalisms,
like the Greek and Slavic struggles in the 19th century,
certainly the Armenian effort snuffed by the Turks and the
Jewish one battered by the Arabs in the 20th century, are
considered blasphemous violations of the Pact of
`Umar/dhimma that catalyze a renewal of the jihad against
the rebellious native populations of history.
The thesis of jihad-dhimmitude is a compelling equation
of the parameters of power, with the denial of Christian
equality constituting a formidable ingredient highlighting
Muslim superiority. It is something that the Christians
of Bethlehem feel in these days of Hamas-style Islamic
fundamentalism, while the Muslims arrogate to themselves
the mantle of Palestinian authenticity and leadership.
Certainly the Jews of Israel should not expect, were their
political stamina to falter and their state to decay, that
anything but a dismal and unbearable dhimmi fate would
be their tragic lot, and end, in Palestine.
Bat Ye'or, an Egyptian Jewess long resident in Switzerland,
touches on the sad anomaly of the defeated and distraught
Christians submitting to Muslim power in the Middle East,
but also internalizing the base dhimmi mind-set in the lands
of the Christian West. There the psychology as opposed
to the policy of dhimmitude has helped forge a mechanism
of defeatism and opportunism, in particular in Europe.
Submission to oil-rich Arabs and trepidation in the face of
Muslim terrorism have turned the once confident West
into an appendage of Muslim expansion, placing the infidels
in dar el-harb (the realm of war).
It is the goal of world conquest propelled by a religion of war
that is the essence of the Islamic enterprise whenever feasible,
while always remaining the heart of the conviction and aspira-
tion of the "Muslim nation." Muslims may have been grieving
for their victimized condition since the early 19th century,
subject to the indignities of Western penetration, colonialism,
racism, and imperalism; but this image conceals the
reality of an ethic of jihad against the unfortunate Christians
in the past and against the pliant frightened West of today.
Bat Ye'or has painted a gloomy and threatening picture of
dhimmi capitulation to the forces of Muslim and Arab power in
Egypt and the Sudan, in Lebanon and Iraq. And yet the
political discourse of our times fosters obfuscation rather
elucidation of Muslim discrimination and persecution of
Christians, while excoriating past Western aggression and its
lingering guilt-ridden crimes, like American intervention in
Iraq and the Persian Gulf.
When Bernard Lewis wrote a small eye-opening account of
Race and Color in Islam in 1970, it was ignored due to its
independent and politically incorrect, though scholarly,
exposition. Bat Ye'or's The Decline of Eastern Christianity
under Islam, appearing a quarter of a century later, will
hopefully earn its due consideration and recognition, for
it is definitely a courageous work and scholarly work.
Truth may be disturbing, but, as Max Weber pointed out,
the role of the teacher is to present uncomfortable facts.
Elazar
==============================================
"A "PACIFIST," WHO LETS EVIL RUN
RAMPANT, IS AN ENEMY OF ULTIMATE PEACE... tho peaceful"
[YaaKov Fogelman, Jerusalem]
=================================================
This Posting brought to you by: Kevin E: Abrams, The International
Committee for Holocaust Truth, with representatives in Washington
DC, California, New York N.Y., London and Israel, & The International
Working Committee on Homosexuality. Read The On-line version of
The Pink Swastika, Homosexuality In The Nazi Party 1995 at........
FAX: 011-972-6-924-738
"History NEVER Repeats Itself, Man Always Does" [Voltaire]
=================================================
via PNEWS
http://www.applicom.com/pnews/
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|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Atheist Taglines
|Date: 06 Jan 97 02:33:46
EID:2b6c 22261420
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 d949e832
Ä Area: Taglines ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
From: Thomas Tschoellitsch Date: 01-02-97 12:56
Subj: Atheist Taglines
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
REPLY: .Nisaba writing to Thomas Tschoellitsch:
TT> [SUBJECT: Atheist Taglines]
TT> Does anybody need/want atheist taglines?
.N> Post a selection of the less well circulated ones, I'm always
.N> interested in how the other half lives.
last changed: 17.6.1996 e.v.
*- Dear lord, save me from your followers.
*- The symbol of christianity is the founder killing himself. Think about
it.
*- A good christian doesn`t think - a good christian obeys ! (B. Graham)
*- If more christians read the bible there would be less of them.
*- Being born again increases the chances of birth defects.
*- Who needs a devil when you follow a god like Jehova?
*- Who needs a devil when you have an asshole like Jehova as a god?
*- The christians MUST OBEY their hiarchy and dare to call US a cult?
*- You folks telling me that intolerance is a Traditional Family Value ?
*- If God is omnipotent, why does he need my money ?
*- Annoy a Christian: ask him how many gods he believes in.
*- AIDS is a virus. The church is a punishment from God.
*- Sects, sects, sects - is that all you protestants ever think about ?
*- I believe in Traditional Values ! The earth is flat.
*- The Earth is flat / pi equals three / the Bible says it / so it must
be.
*- The most insidious threat to Christianity : education.
*- Christians: Always willing to lay down your life for their belief.
*- Christianity: Judaism for Windows.
*- Jesus appears at disco; states "I`ve risen and I can`t get down"
*- I admit it, I tried Christianity, but I didn`t inhale.
*- Christianity causes deafness and hair loss when used by laboratory rats.
*- Christianity: celebrating 2000 years of continuous obsolescence.
*- A zoo animal, released, afraid to leave its cage. That`s a christian.
*- I like God. I just don't like his fan-club.
SysOp of ILLUMINA BBS: 0043-316-694168 (Austria), 07-22h, 28.8k, PUS, SWS
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|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Millennium Lunacy
|Date: 06 Jan 97 02:33:46
EID:eef7 22261420
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 44a4ecce
Ä Area: Atheist & State/Church seperation Info ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
From: Christopher Baker Date: 12-29-96 07:29
Subj: AANEWS #225
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
from: AMERICAN ATHEISTS
subject: AANEWS for December 29, 1996
A M E R I C A N A T H E I S T S
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
nnnnnnnnnn AANEWS nnnnnnnnnn
#225 uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 12/29/96
http://www.atheists.org
ftp.atheists.org/pub/
e-mail: aanews@atheists.org
COUNTING DOWN TO MILLENNIUM LUNACY
*****
With New Year's Eve just days away, the arrival of 2000 isn't that
far behind. And everyone from religious groups to mystical crackpots
is already making plans for
The Big One...
*
UNLIKE this coming Tuesday, New Years Eve 2000 promises to be far
more than just another round of drinks, grandiose resolutions, and
maybe watching all those folks in Times Square count down to the
midnight hour from the comfort of your living room. 2000 is a
different kind of party animal, not your typical end-of-beginning-of
yearly bash. It is the end of a century as well as the end of a
millennium. And for a surprising number of diverse groups and
individuals, it is fast becoming the focal point of dreams, wishes,
expectations and dreads. Call it "millennium madness." For lots of
folks, the advent of the year 2000 can be the fulfillment of Biblical
prophecy, the dawn of Armageddon, the ushering in of a new cosmic age.
You can already choose from a number of scenarios, some of them wildly
optimistic and utopian, others replete with Biblical harbingers of the
"last days" and "end times." For some, the year 2000 is a benchmark in
social and political agendas to change the face of the earth, while
for others, it could well be The Beginning of the End. We'll see.
There are a couple of chronological facts, though, that can't be
ignored in any discussion of millennialism. The year 2000 -- or at
least our temporal dating system -- is a human invention. It really
isn't 2000 years since the alleged birth of Christ, in part thanks to
calendric changes and reforms made centuries ago. And there is the
standing argument of when exactly temporal periods like centuries and
millennia actually end and begin. Does humanity's third millennium
begin in 2000 or 2001? There seems to be no agreement on that
question, but as Dan and Gail Collins wrote in "The Millennium
Handbook," well, 2000 seems to have captured the public imagination.
2000 "seems" to be an appropriate time to commemorate the closing of
one block of the human experience, and the beginning of a new stage in
our history.
And 2000 has emerged as the year signifying a point in history
which is supposed to signify the beginning of SOMETHING. Just what
the "something" is depends on who you deal with; but a surprising
range of religious and mystical groups see the year 2000 as laden with
metaphysical, spiritual and even apocalyptic significance. Already a
number of distinct trends have emerged...
* RELIGIOUS UNITY. Despite the proliferation of religious groups
and cults, and the inevitable "turf wars" for followers in places like
Latin America, Asia and the former Soviet Union, a number of major
religious groups are in an ecumenical mood talking about outright
unification or levels of cooperation. Both might be problematic
agendas in terms of history.
The Roman Catholic Church has been conducting a major effort to woo
the various Orthodox branches which broke off centuries ago, as well
as the Anglican Church. Pope John Paul II is determined to live long
enough to shepherd his church into the next millennium, and the
Vatican is sparing no effort in capitalizing on the eschatological
significance of the year 2000. The Church has declared that year to
be a Golden Jubilee, a spectacular religious production where the
Porta Sancta in St. Peter's Basilica will be opened, and all those who
pass through supposedly receive cosmic brownie points in the form of a
"special" blessing. The Vatican is also dragging a slew of
historical artifacts (of dubious authenticity) out of its storage
vaults, including the discredited Shroud of Turin and the Holy Coat of
Trier. The National Heritage Foundation in Italy now estimates that
between 30 and 60 million visitors will be flocking to Rome for the
Jubilee.
Attendance at other holy hot spots -- Lourdes, Fatima, Medjugore --
will most likely soar. And the burgeoning cult of the Virgin Mary
("Marioltry") will draw the faithful and curious to just about any
location where this elusive lady deigns to put in a peek-a-boo
appearance.
Other Christian movements, while still open to the prospect of
ecumenical unity, are using the year 2000 as the focal point for their
own aggressive evangelical outreaches. Last summer's Olympic Games in
Atlanta began a four-year buildup by the AD2000 movement which hopes
to organize a Global March for Jesus. At the Olympics, a number of
Christian groups pamphleted athletes and tourists, refining their
organizing and recruiting skills. The penultimate goal is a series of
mass parades in 2000 cities across the globe with 30,000,000
participants on June 10, 2000.
Religious unity is also part of the agenda of Episcopal Bishop
William E. Swing and his United Religions movement based in San
Francisco. Swing tells supporters that they can "share a vision: that
the religions of the world can come together in prayer dialogue, and
action for global good." United Religions began in 1993 with an
"interfaith service" to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the
signing of the United Nations Charter. Among United Religions' goals
is "a permanent gathering center where the world's religions engage in
daily prayer, dialogue, and action for the good of life on this earth"
and to "establish a world religious structure for global good."
Other religious hope to cash in on millennium fervor as well. A
group calling itself Journey of the Magi plans a "six month pilgrimage
of peace that will retrace the original journey of the Magi," where
participants will ride on horses and camels and attend religious
festivals.
* A SEARCH FOR NEW MESSIAHS
Apocalyptic cults are often structured around the leadership of a
charismatic, authoritarian figure who at times declares himself (or
herself) to be a messianic personality. As noted by New York Times
religion writer Gustav Niebuhr, the approach of the year 2000 with its
many "declarations that a vast metaphysical change will coincide with
the turn of the chronological odometer" has already fueled predictions
of the Second Coming. While mainstream religions tend to hedge their
bets on just when the prophetic biblical time table will begin to
unfold, many newagers are looking for alternative forms of
millennialist fulfillment, and new messiahs as well. There is Barbara
Marx Hubbard's brain-wracking babble about humanity evolving into a
form of "cosmic godhood" where we all, essentially, become deities.
Another equally astounding prospect, though, is found in the cultish
movement centered around "Lord Maitreya," an avatar publicized by
British painter Benjamin Creme. Creme has been drawing large crowds
wherever he lectures, with a fascinating story of the new messiah, a
World Teacher who is about to appear on the stage of human history and
govern with his select handful of "perfected men." Creme informs his
audiences that Maitreya left his redoubt in the Himalaya Mountains in
a "self created" human body, and arrived in London in 1977. Since
then, the avatar has ostensibly been preparing for his "Day of
Declaration" when he will go on worldwide television and, according to
Niebuhr, "teach the building of a new civilization for the benefit of
all."
The Maitreya legend combines artifacts of both western and eastern
mysticism, and borrows from the writings of Theosophist Helena
Blavatsky who mused about reincarnation, telepathy, and a race of
avatars secluded in the Himalayas known as The Great White
Brotherhood. Still another influence is found in Alice Bailey, a
former Theosophist who broke with Blavatsky's doctrines and began her
own Arcane School; Bailey, like Creme, claimed to be in telepathic
contact with "ascended masters", and predicted a coming golden age or
"New Civilization."
* GLOBAL TRANSFORMATION
Early millennialist movements embraced the Biblical notion of a
"New Jerusalem", a social order which would arise in the end times or
"final days" as a perfect, harmonious utopia presided over by the
returned Christ. For Christians and newagers caught up in the present
millennialist frenzy, the New Jerusalem is a transformed earth based
on "new" values and ethics. Contemporary millennialist scenarios
involve such diverse schemes as space colonization, economic reform,
and the creation of utopian societies or subcultures. Many events
planned in connection with the year 2000 are outright fanciful, yet
manage to tap into these enduring metaphors and yearnings. The group
World Action for the Millennium has the goal that "on January 1st of
the year 2000 all inhabitants of the planet Earth will be linked
together to receive and share for one minute a message --expressed in
music -- that can be universally understood as a way to empower the
individual and express his or her belonging to the global community."
Another organization, Megacity 2000, seeks to use the beginning of
a new millennium to promote the use of mega-urban structures as the
"dominant type of settlement for humanity." Meta-Nation 2000 wants to
establish a "meta-nation" in outer space "where human society can live
and work in the new millennium."
DOOMSDAY, APOCALYPSE, FINAL JUDGMENT
In contrast to the utopian, upbeat and dreamy millennialist plans
of certain religious and mystical groups is the "tribulation" segment
of Christians -- and a more difficult to locate smattering of new age
apocalyptics -- for whom the year 2000 is the threshold of gloom and
doom. The Aum Shinryo "Supreme Truth" sect in Japan and the Order of
the Solar Temple are considered examples of the latter, where a fusion
of bizarre religious and mystical ideologies precipitates acts of
individual or organized cultic violence. The Aum cult, for instance,
believed that a series of catastrophes would devastate most of the
world, after which the Supreme Truth would establish its own
government and rule. Some millennium watchers predict that similar
new age style sects, blending a lethal amalgam of apocalyptic ideology
and mysticism, will percolate in the next few years as we approach the
year 2000.
Shockingly high percentages of fundamentalist Christians believe
that the "parousia" or Second Coming will occur in their lifetime, and
that the year 2000 is an important mile post on the apocalypse road
humanity is travelling. Indeed, many fundamentalists are wary of
millennialist calls for ecumenical unity, fearing this as a step
toward a "one world church" colorfully described in books like
Revelation which will be presided over by the Anti Christ and False
Prophet.
A Credulous Environment
Just how widespread "millennial madness" will become is difficult
to predict, but there are indications that public discussion and
awareness of issues such as the apocalypse, or the fruition of other
forms of catastrophic prophecy, is growing. There is a proliferation
of sites on the world wide web related to the upcoming millennium
expressing a range of views. And interest in religious and new age
themes remains strong. Movies, books and television programs deal with
a spectrum of mystical topics, from aliens and ghosts to angels and
"the power of prayer." The rising number of reports about mystical
apparitions (Jesus, Mary) elicits wide media coverage, and often
attract thousands of faithful. Indeed, fascination with apocalyptic
themes or the transformational prospects inherent n the new millennium
are simply part of a wider cultural assault on social values
emphasizing reason, logic and science. Millennialism may emerge as
the dominant irrationalist reaction against the unfulfilled
Enlightenment agenda, as postmodernist society barrels down the
temporal road to 2000 and beyond.
**
About This List...
AANEWS is a free service from American Atheists, a nationwide
movement founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair for the advancement of
Atheism, and the total, absolute separation of government and
religion. For subscribe/unsubscribe information, send mail to aanews-
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Rpresentative for American Atheists is Margie Wait, irep@atheists.org.
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PATH: 2002/2002 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Yahweh is Enlil?
|Date: 06 Jan 97 02:33:46
EID:d694 22261420
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 0397538f
Ä Area: I_UFO ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
From: Iufo@world.std.com Date: 12-29-96 00:00
Subj: IUFO: Yahweh
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
From: michael.pell@freenet.hamilton.on.ca
Original Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 22:48:16 -0500 (EST)
In a message dated Sat, 28 Dec 1996 01: galaxy37@1starnet.com writes:
G> Yahweh is the Crown-Prince Enlil of the Planet Nibiru. Think about that.
G> Beto
Hello "galaxy37",
At first glance En.Lil would look like the prime candidate to be Yahweh
when we do a surface scan of the available material. As mentioned in an
earlier post, Yahweh by definition is an expanded version of the latin YHWH,
which is loosely based on the Hebrew verb "to be". Yahweh is not the Lord's
DIVINE name. He never mentions to us (or Moses who asked Him directly) what
His divine name is. So He could very well be one of the Anunnaki as He fits
the descriptions of what they were said to be like, powers possessed, and
general personality traits, by the Sumerians in their seals and tablets.
Zecharia Sitchin in his most recent book Divine Encounters ISBN 0-380-78076-3
compares what is known of each of the major deities and sees just how close
they might fit the bill as to who (or what) Yahweh is. In his chapter
"Endpaper" he examines closely An/Anu, En.Lil, E.a/En.Ki, Ninurta,
Nannar/Sin, Ra/Mar.Duk, Thoth/Hermes/Quetzalcoatl/Nin.Gish.Zidda, etc. He
effectively dismisses En.Lil as Yahweh through some interesting deductions.
I invite you to read his work if you have not already done so.
No conclusion as to who Yahweh is, is really reached. What is known according
to the timeline of discovered physical artifacts from Sumerians until the
writings of the Bible are;
1 - Yahweh as a major deity is not mentioned in the absolute earliest of
writings discovered in ancient Mesopotamian sites of pre-Biblical cities
that describe the history of man from the time of our "creation" to the
flood, etc.
2 - Yahweh appears much later and is prominent in setting up the "promised
land", and establishing the new faith of His followers. The Old and New
Testaments give us a more indepth look at the deity known as Yahweh.
As mentioned in another post, can Yahweh be one of these Anunnaki?
Could Yahweh have picked up and taken over the "reins" for the dealings
with humanity that were rapidly diminishing as seen by the lack of contact
between humanity and their deities?
Mar.Duk/Ra wrestled for power that was not his by birth rite, but he felt
it was via his father En.Ki/Ptah, whom he felt was cheated of inheriting
the rule from An/Anu because he (En.Ki) was not the first born of An/Anu
and
Antu. En.Ki was the first born son, but of a different mother, thereby not
elligible for inheritence of rule which has to go to the first born by
the ruler and his WIFE. The point is leadership was sought by those that
were not "legally" entitled to it and power striggles among the deities
ensued. Could this pave the way for other deities not binding to rule to
actually come to rule? Could Yahweh have come to prominence in this fashion?
Is Yahweh not Anunnakian but the God of the Anunnaki themselves, the true
creator force?
Is it possible that we are the creation of his creation (the Anunnaki)?
A
third generation level if you will?
Apon a close examination, Yahweh "appears to show up during the establishment
and creation of additional urbanized cultures and societies" He appears
unto
his subjects in the same manner as attributed to the Anunnaki to their people.
Is His Kingdom destined to rule for ALL time or just for now (which would
appear to be "forever" by our dating methods and lifespans)? Or as mentioned
in the past through recorded histories, deities come and go and rule perhaps
for millennia at a time until they move on to other things?
Is it not possible then that Yahweh is the most recent deity to intervene
in
human affairs while the other deities have moved on to other projects? The
deities that were "cast down" may no longer have an active role on Earth.
Who cast them down? Yahweh?
Might Jesus, as a demi-god (half human/half divine) been yet another "test
of the waters" by the divine deity to see if man was ready to worship
their "creator", having moved to more and more "evil ways"?
Having been destined to be wiped out once by the pantheon of gods in the
Sumerian records by a flood, or as seen later, by Yahweh, by flood in our
Bibles, the event was said to never be such the case again. Destruction
by water will not be the case. Fire for round two.
Though we do -not- know Yahweh's Divine name to see if He is indeed one
of
the Anunnaki that we do know of, we know of His presence and the results
of
intervention in human affairs as described in the Bible.
Why His name remains unknown, or why He fails to tell us, is strange in
itself, as though the "knowing" of it would make aware a fact that otherwise
He wishes to have remain unknown. Maybe it is deemed that we are not worthy
for such information, but think about it.....what's in a name?
Obviously something. But what?
Cheers, Mike
+--------------[Amiga Computing in the 9o's]-----[mwp96]-------------+
|Send mail to: /\ tm /\ | |
|Inet:michael.pell@freenet.hamilton.on.ca /| \ /| \ -O- |
|Inet:al744@freenet.hamilton.on.ca /\ / | \ , / | \ | |
|Fido:mikepell@1:244/506 /| \ / | __\_/O\ / | \ |
|- From the Days of E.Din - / | \ / |('_, )_)_,/ | /\/\/\ |
+--------------[*]--------[***]--------------------------[giza]------+
___ Offline Orbit v0.81 (Unregistered Evaluation Copy)
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-> Posted by: michael.pell@freenet.hamilton.on.ca
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|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Satan Taglines
|Date: 06 Jan 97 02:33:46
EID:c2c9 22261420
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 6568c378
Ä Area: Taglines ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
From: Simon Avery Date: 12-27-96 11:50
Subj: SATAN TAGLINES
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
SATAN TAGLINES
CM>> Hey! I need some Satan taglines! anyone have any (no files please)??
[Filtered using Tag-O-Matic v.12] Keywords: Satan, Devil
"Bother!" said Pooh as Satan laid his soul to waste.
"Bother," said @F as Satan laid his soul to waste
"Bother," said @F, as Satan laid his soul to waste.
"Bother," said @F, as Satan pointed out the small print.
"Bother," said Pooh as Satan laid his soul to waste
"Bother," said Pooh, as Satan laid his soul to waste.
"Bother," said Pooh, as Satan pointed out the fine print...
"Bother," said Pooh, as Satan pointed out the small print
"Bother," said Pooh, as Satan pointed out the small print.
665: Satan's neighbour...
667: Satan's neighbor...
Bad: Your son's involved in Satanism. Worse: As a sacrifice.
Barney is Satan!
Bother, said Pooh, as Satan laid his soul to waste.
Dear Satan. Give me drugs! (William Bennett)
Easy credit terms available... - Satan
Get thee behind me Satan. I was here first.
God created anchovies. Satan put them on pizza!
Halloween: Satan's Christmas
Hi. I see you've met the Satanic Cat from Hell.
Holloween: Satan's Christmas.
Innocent holiday for the kiddies or a night on the town for Satan.
No...we don't worship Barney! That's worse than Satan!
Oh bother, said Pooh as Satan laid his soul to waste.
Santa scrambled is Satan. Coincidence? I think not!
Satan talks backwards in OS/2 DLLs.
Satanic nurses: Healthcare from Hell. On the next Geraldo!
Since GOD spelled backwards is DOG, is my poodle Satan?
You're just laughing at me because I'm Satan.
"Bother" said Pooh as the Devil crossed Death.
"Bother" said Pooh as the Devil crossed Death.
A Denebian Slime Devil is a tribble built to Klingon specifications.
Alone, adj.: In bad company. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Behave or the Devil will make you read Zmodem docs!
Have you ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?
Heaven sends us good meat, but the Devil sends us cooks.
I sold my soul to the Devil. He gave it back.
Is a parasite where the Red Devils land, then?
Kleptomaniac, n.: A rich thief. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Plug your modem in backwards and hear the Devil's own words!
The Devil falls on account of his gravity.
The Devil finds work for idle glands.
The Devil has three children: Pride, Falsehood and Envy.
The Devil made me read Zmodem docs!
The only evidence that the Devil is real= Jesse Helms & Newt Gringrich.
There ain't no Devil. It's just God when He's drunk. (Tom Waits)
To Devil's Night, my new favorite holiday. --T-Bird.
"Drop the guy with the devil ears." -- NBC, June, 1965.
A dyslexic devil worshipper sold his soul to Santa
A nickname is the heaviest stone the devil can throw at a man.
Alimony - the ransom that the happy pay to the devil.
Altruism is the devil's calling card.
Bad news mom, I sold my soul to the devil. - Calvin
Bunkers are an invention of the devil.
COWS... .
Fatal Error 999: Dyslexic computer possessed by devil.
Hear about the dyslexic devil worshipper? Sold his soul to SANTA.
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
In all systems of theology, the devil is a male.
Let's make like an exorcist and get the devil outta here.
Niether give place to the devil. (Eph 4:27)
Old daredevils never die, they just get discouraged.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you
Spam...it is the devil's work!
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
The devil finds work for idle circuits to do.
There is no devil; it's God when he's drunk.
the devils of truth steal the souls of the free
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* Origin: Pacific Online Services ISP/BBS (707.588.0250) www.pon.net (1:2002/2002)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 2002/2002 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: RIC CARTER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Cult Danger Test
|Date: 06 Jan 97 02:33:46
EID:499c 22261420
TID: PX/Win v2.0GY PX96-0455M
MSGID: 1:2002/2002 3f296c05
Ä Area: Magick Echo ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
From: Arthur Barnes Date: 01-02-97 04:40
Subj: suspicious groups
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Okay, with all the talk about (I think it was..) Lita's coven (if I'm wrong
don't hurt me) I thought it would be a good idea if they had something
to make sure it was alright.
Enjoy!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings:
In answer to your recent inquiries on the nets, the Advanced Bonewits Cult
Danger Evaluation Frame is:
(1) by me, not about me; :)
(2) in print in my book "Real Magic" (Weiser Pubs) and Margot Adler's book,
"Drawing Down the Moon";
(3) available in ascii form;
(4) may be freely posted with its accompanying copyright info.
I will attempt to include it below.
For information about "my group", A.D.F., contact our Chief Electronic
Information Officer, <>. She has all our basic lit,
up-to-date grove lists, and misc. essays available in ascii.
yours in the Mother,
Isaac Bonewits
Adr./ADF
************************************************************************
THE ADVANCED BONEWITS CULT DANGER EVALUATION FRAME
(c) 1979, 1994 by P. E. I. Bonewits
Events in the last few decades have clearly indicated just how
dangerous some religious and secular groups (usually called "cults") can
be to their own members as well as to anyone else whom they can
influence. Brainwashing, beatings, rapes and murders, mass suicides,
military drilling and gunrunning, meddling in civil governments and
other crimes have been charged against many groups, and in several cases
those accusations have been true. People need a relatively simple way to
evaluate just how dangerous or harmless a given group is liable to be,
without either subjecting themselves to its power or judging solely on
theological or ideological grounds (the usual method used by anticult
groups).
In 1979 I constructed an analytical tool which I now call the
"Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame," or "ABCDEF," a copy of
which was included in the revised edition of my book, "Real Magic"
(Samuel Weiser, Inc., York Beach, ME 03910, $13 ppd) and is reproduced
at the end of these notes. I realize its shortcomings, but feel that it
can be effectively used to separate the sheep from the wolves. Feedback
from those attempting to use the system would be appreciated.
The purpose of this evaluation tool is to help both amateur and
professional observers, including current or would-be members, of
various organizations (including religious, occult, psychological or
political groups) to determine just how dangerous a given group is
liable to be, in comparison with other groups, to the physical and
mental health of its members and of others subject to its influence. It
cannot speak to the spiritual "dangers," if any, that might be involved,
for the simple reason that one person's path to enlightenment/salvation
is often viewed by another as the path to ignorance/damnation.
As a general rule, the higher the numerical total scored by a given
group (the further to the right of the scale), the more dangerous it is
likely to be. Though it is obvious that many of the scales in the frame
are subjective, it is still possible to make practical judgments using
it, provided that all numerical assignments are based on accurate and
unbiased observation of actual behavior (as distinct from official
pronouncements).
This frame can be used by parents, reporters, law enforcement
agents, social scientists and others interested in evaluating the actual
dangers presented by a given group or movement. Obviously, different
observers will achieve differing degrees of precision, depending upon
the sophistication of their numerical assignments on each scale.
However, if the same observer used the same methods of scoring and
weighting each scale, their comparisons of relative danger or
harmlessness between groups will be reasonably valid, at least for their
own purposes. People who cannot, on the other hand, view competing
belief systems as ever having possible spiritual value to anyone, will
find the Frame annoyingly useless for promoting their theocratic
agendas.
It should be pointed out that this evaluation frame is founded upon
a) modern ideas of humanistic psychology concerning the nature of mental
health and personal growth, and b) the author's many years of
participant observation and historical research into minority belief
systems. Those who believe that relativism and anarchy are as dangerous
to mental health as absolutism and authoritarianism are, should count
groups with total scores nearing either extreme (high or low) as being
equally hazardous. As far as dangers to physical well being are
concerned, however, both historical records and current events clearly
indicate the direction in which the greatest threats lie. This is
especially so since the low-scoring groups usually seem to have survival
and growth rates so small that they seldom develop the abilities to
commit large scale atrocities even had they the philosophical or
political inclinations to do so.
=====================================================================
THE ADVANCED BONEWITS CULT DANGER EVALUATION FRAME
(c) 1979, 1994 by P. E. I. Bonewits
Factors: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Low High
1. INTERNAL CONTROL: Amount of
internal political power exercised
by leader(s) over members. 1. _____________________________
2. WISDOM CLAIMED by leader(s);
amount of infallibility declared
about decisions. 2. _____________________________
3. WISDOM CREDITED to leader(s) by
members; amount of trust in deci-
sions made by leader(s). 3. _____________________________
4. DOGMA: Rigidity of reality con-
cepts taught; amount of doctrinal
inflexibility. 4. _____________________________
5. RECRUITING: Emphasis put on
attracting new members; amount of
proselytizing. 5. _____________________________
6. FRONT GROUPS: Number of subsid-
iary groups using different names
from that of main group. 6. _____________________________
7. WEALTH: Amount of money and/or
property desired or obtained; em-
phasis on members donations; eco-
nomic lifestyle of leader(s). 7. _____________________________
8. POLITICAL POWER: Amount of ex-
ternal political influence desired
or obtained. 8. _____________________________
9. SEXUAL MANIPULATION: of members
by leader(s); amount of control
over sex lives of members. 9. _____________________________
10. CENSORSHIP: Amount of control
over members' access to outside
opinions on group, its doctrines or
leader(s). 10. _____________________________
11. DROPOUT CONTROL: Intensity of
efforts directed at preventing or
returning dropouts. 11. _____________________________
12. ENDORSEMENT OF VIOLENCE when
used by or for the group, its doc-
trines or leader(s). 12. _____________________________
13. PARANOIA: amount of fear con-
cerning real or imagined enemies;
perceived power of opponents. 13. _____________________________
14. GRIMNESS: Amount of disapproval
concerning jokes about the group,
its doctrines or its leader(s). 14. _____________________________
15. SURRENDER OF WILL: Amount of
emphasis on members not having to
be responsible for personal deci-
sions; degree of individual dis-
empowerment created by the group,
its doctrines or its leader(s). 15. _____________________________
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Low High
========================================================================
Copyright 1979, 1994 by Isaac Bonewits. This text file may be freely
distributed by BBSs provided that no editing is done and this notice is
included. If you have enjoyed reading this "Sharetext" essay, and would
like to encourage him to post more such essays, send $5 to the author
at: Box 72, Dumont, NJ, USA 07628. If you would like to be on the
author's personal mailing/phone list for upcoming publications, song &
lecture tapes, and appearances, send your data to the same address. For
more information about Neopagan Druidism, call 1-800-DRUIDRY or send
$3US (or $4Can) to ADF Info, Box 516, E. Syracuse, NY, USA 13057.
========================================================================
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/Wildcat5! v2.0GY
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|From: Doug Lee
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: 2 Paradox [1/2]
|Date: 05 Jan 97 11:13:19
EID:5aef 222559a0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32d048e7
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Doug Lee <=-
DL> with the hightest sphear which caused the backlash. In the above
DL> senario, if Samual were pulled into a paradox realm,the spirit of
DL> Samual would be pulled away and locked in an Umbral or Dream realm,
DL> with his body lying in a catatonic heap.
SA> Yes, I can imagine worse.
Why am I not suprised?? ;>
SA> In fact, Sam Haight, the Garou
SA> Skinner, is now an ashtray on some Artificer's desk. He was A) A
SA> CoG kinfolk abused by his father who b) Killed a Tremere, ghouled
SA> himself, and learned Thaumaturgy and then c) Learned a Wyrm rite
SA> that basically let him become full Garou by skinning one Garou from
SA> each Auspice - he thus became a "Skindancer" and later d) killed
SA> some Mage, learned Spheres, and stole an artifact sword that allowed
SA> him to use mage spheres without threat of Paradox and e) was finally
SA> overwhelmed in a huge battle against Garou, Kindred, and
SA> who-knows-who else in which his sword got broken and f) The Paradox
SA> backlash was so mighty, having stored up so much of it over the
SA> years that his body was destroyed and his soul turned into an
SA> ashtray.
Yep. The Mage sourcebook refers to legends of paradox storms sweeping
across reality. Clensing the slate. Sort of like the story of Soddom and
Gamora(sp). Fire raining from the sky, people turning into pillars of
salt....... Hey there's a plot device in there. :>
SA> And the peasants rejoiced.
(muted) yeeeeah.
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|From: Doug Lee
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: horsepitals
|Date: 05 Jan 97 15:16:52
EID:6682 22257a00
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32d048ed
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32cd3770
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Ronald Vass <=-
SA> Making a good die roll, Ronald Vass cast horsepitals at Curtis
SA> Johnson .. and all hell broke loose.
RV> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them;
RV> One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them;
SA> I want this inscribed on my wedding ring should I ever get hitched,
SA> (minus the semi-colon) but somehow I don't think it'll fit.
You want that on your wedding ring??
Makes me wonder what the actual ceremony would be like.
Well ok, how about it? If 6/49 came through for you, what would the
ceremony be like??
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
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|From: Doug Lee
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Paradox [1/2]
|Date: 05 Jan 97 14:51:27
EID:5c9b 22257660
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 32d048e8
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32cd376a
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Doug Lee <=-
>>> Part 1 of 2...
SA> Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast Paradox at Sue Armstrong .. and
SA> all hell broke loose.
SA> Sorry about taking so long getting back to you on this; with the
SA> holidays and such, it's been difficult to sit down and reply
SA> thoughtfully to all the mail I've been getting, and I didn't want to
SA> skimp on this one, especially since this is one of the more pleasant
SA> posts I've had to respond to in a while.
So I've seen.
DL> You said some time ago that you wanted to know how Paradox
DL> works in Mage:The Ascention. Well I'm feeling alittle bored, so here
we
DL> go.
DL> Paradox comes about when a mage has performed magick that goes against
DL> consentual reality. Reality is defined by what the sleepers (the
DL> general population) as believable. The Technocracy has for the past
DL> thousand or so years molded the population of the world to more readily
DL> accept their paradigm. That science is the only thing that is able to
DL> alter reality. Anything else would go against reality, and therefore
DL> not be possiable. This is why mages always try to work their magick
as
DL> *coincidental* magick. That is, magic which would be believable by the
DL> general population.
SA> Funny. This is basically the reason I've been using to explain the
SA> Delerium.
Oh?
SA> The Delerium, of course, is what humans experience when they see a
SA> Garou in Crinos - their reactions are basically based on their
SA> Willpower (or, as I use it for incidental encounters, a roll from
SA> 1-10.) Reactions range from Catatonic Fear (the human curls up into
SA> a ball, whimpers uncontrollably, and can't remember a thing
SA> afterwards) to No Reaction/Blase - the person is likely Kinfolk and
SA> has no reaction at all to seeing the "monster".
To the person coming up with something that would be more easily
explainable. "No. That wasn't a Werewolf. It was some guy in a fur coat.
Yea. YEA. That's the ticket."
SA> The canonical explanation is that it comes from a race memory of
SA> sorts stemming back to the Impergium - the progrom Garou had against
SA> humans, in order to forcibly keep their numbers down and keep them
SA> from spreading their Weaver-stuff all over the place (lasted until
SA> about 8,000 BC, or whenver it was that the first cities, like Ur,
SA> were established. Certain tribes, like the Children of Gaia and
SA> Stargazers, were instrumental i