God Damned Fundies!
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: so...now what?
|Date: 09 Jan 97 12:36:27
EID:22a2 22296480
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32d4e64b
-> On 06 Jan 97 19:06:00, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Take a look at his last lines, Lee:
RC> the term "theory" to describe it. Hector had it pegged, I think,
RC> when he noted your "theory" was merely a metaphysical masturbation.
LW> I should have known this would be your response. Ignore the relevant
LW> part of the message and quote the irrelevant parts.
That is the relevant part of the message, Lee.
LW> I'll send the relevant part to you in a separate message. It's an
LW> experiment, really.
Tell you what: I read it _after_ you perform Hector's Experiment.
... "Your logic is so faulty its in danger of earthquakes." Raven
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Starfire
|To: All
|Sub: Hello
|Date: 08 Jan 97 18:43:47
EID:b889 22289560
MSGID: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d3ed26
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, All!
Hello people I have begain to post in hollysmoke.:} I am Gweny's girl Starfire.
The quickest way to a mans heart is with a broadsword,
Starfire
... [A]bort, [R]etry, [C]all Obi-Wan?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 08 Jan 97 03:53:56
EID:b0f7 22281ea0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 32d36eb4
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Carl Pollock said this about Pray Contest
MO> Hmm... So what you're basically saying is that your god has it's
MO> mind made up before the request for divine intervention is made. That
MO> being the case, praying ain't gonna do dick, is it?
CP> Okay, so maybe I sort of spoke with out thinking. I now think it's a
CP> good idea.
What's a good idea? Speaking without thinking? Something your entire faith
seems to perform with much gusto.
/\\ark...
... In the brain of every religious person there is a god shaped vacuum.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 09 Jan 97 02:21:09
EID:b0f7 222912a0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 32d36f67
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Carl Pollock said this about Pray Contest
MG> We don't want bible quotes. We want to know spcifically why your
MG> god starves innocnet people to death.
CP> And how do I prove this point with out quoting bible text?
You, sir, would be wise to look for answers outside your religion.
Questioning your god instead of blindly supporting him/her/it could only
make you a better person. A loving god would support this. A cowardly god,
or it's followers would, however, look upon this action with disdain. You'll
only achieve enlightenment when you objectively view christianity. IMHO,
it
is a dinosaur. A relic from the time when the Earth was flat. Christianity
survives on guilt, fear and greed. Nothing else.
/\\ark. . .
... "Priests will pardon thieves but not philosophers." [Washburn]
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Fred Rice
|Sub: do you know this gay?
|Date: 08 Jan 97 18:43:54
EID:0f18 22289560
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 73654ff4
Thought you'd be itnerested in this........
* Original To : all, 1:124/9005.221
* Original From: Mahmut Kursun, 2:2480/13.145@fidonet
* Original Date: Jan 04 21:49
Hey, I just diddled this Webpage:
http://www.stbbs.com/personal/frice
Do you know who it is? There is a picture of a clerk sitting on a table
with a bottle of coke lite on the table and a laptop and there are
a couple of Music Cassettes beside the bottle.
I can imagine this is Glodbreg? Would you help me with that buddy?
--- FastEcho 1.21
* Origin: YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE (2:2480/13.145)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 08 Jan 97 18:46:30
EID:35de 222895c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7365562d
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 8546da3f
MB> This "experiment" would be impossible to set up. Just because the
MB> designated group is not praying for a certain person is no sign
MB> that some of the other 6 billion people on the face of the Earth
MB> aren't praying for them, and just because somebody in the group
MB> IS praying for a certain person is no sign that some of the
MB> other 6 billion people on the face of the Earth aren't
MB> praying that the person will be given a quick a merciful end
MB> to their suffering.
I've been over and over this with countless deists. They just don't seem
to get the message.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: the pitter-patter of
|Date: 08 Jan 97 20:08:16
EID:38ba 2228a100
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 73661761
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 04f583fe
MB> It was in a Catholic hospital, and she "baptized" it immediately
MB> after I expelled it, believe it or not.
MB> We wouldn't want its immortal soul to end up in purgatory, now,
MB> would we?
Typical. I'm surprised that theylet you in for ANY reason when not carrying
a baby to term.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: demo
|Date: 08 Jan 97 20:09:23
EID:40a0 2228a120
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 73661b95
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 cec38dc4
MG>> You know, Chris, you become more annoying by the day.
MB> He is trying to annoy you. Don't play into his hand.
I am aware of this. I'm just skipping his stuff now. I think that our
corresponance will be very limited.
MB> Don't you practice at a teaching hospital? I would think that,
MB> even if you aren't a professor yourself, it is clear that you had
MB> to pass muster by those who were in order to get the job (or keep
MB> it once you did get it). Chris has a blind spot in his thinking
MB> or else he wouldn't have come up with such a weak ad hominem.
My lab is at a medical school. I am not a professor but ont he junior faculty,
which means that I have some teaching duty and reserch dut, but don't have
to write the grants to get the money. I sponge off of someone else.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Heathens
|Date: 08 Jan 97 20:11:30
EID:a734 2228a160
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 73661e1e
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 2f4335ae
MG>> To be honest, I still believe that this has been cooked up
MG>> by you and Al. Time will tell me right or wrong.
MB> For whatever it might be worth, I think he's for real. I'll go
MB> one step further and say that I think the reason he used to
I still think that he cooked it up. I didn't really mena to include your
SIL in it, I just picked a post at random and replied to it to tell him
this.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Christians v Guns
|Date: 08 Jan 97 20:12:38
EID:6497 2228a180
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 736627a6
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 8a7f9994
MB> indifference. People can be kept in a very secure facility
MB> and still be treated decently and given a life that has
MB> quality and hope in it. We are not doing that, and, as a
MB> result, we are making matters worse.
I'm all for reform when it works. I don't think it works all that well.
You well know that when a surgeon visits the family after removing a tumor,t
he question is "Did you get it all? Is he cured?" The surgeon will answer
giving a percentage that the patient is cured. But there is always that
nagging feeling that it can recur.
The analogy to felons is the same. I certainly don't believe that everyone
in prison should be there. I certainly don't believe that everyone that
is not in prison shoudn't be there. But to ask the question "Will they
ever do it again?", most do. For second offenses, I'm for offing them.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 08 Jan 97 20:21:40
EID:4f33 2228a2a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7366372b
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d05c53
JH>> Jim Bowie was a slave trader from New Orleans.
DW> Take that!
Awshit. How can I bitch about Bowie when god wiped out all the life on
the planet?
I'd be a slave trader too, rather than that.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Scopes was convicted!
|Date: 09 Jan 97 21:10:51
EID:7271 2229a940
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d5a97a0
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d44187
Hello Dan!
Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to Martin Goldberg:
DC> BTW, for once, the movie of that title was done very well.
DC> And, if I remember correctly, it was _QB VII_ For some
DC> reason, "7" seems to be 'right'. The book is still
DC> superior, but the movie did a great job. Not often that I
DC> can ever state that, so I did.
I agree, the film treatment of the book was very close to the
original - and then they had Anthony Hopkins, among many other
luminaries, to give his interpretation of the twisted doctor.
Another reason the visual version was so good was that it
wasn't exactly a 'movie' (in which most books come out as a
poor digested resume). It was a 6 or 8 hrs British TV series,
so there was time to develop the various branches of the story.
And you are right, it was 'QB VII' (Queen's Bench No 7), the
name of the London courtroom in which the libel case took
place.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Dander raising
|Date: 09 Jan 97 02:12:39
EID:6259 22291180
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32d4545d
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d261d4
PID: GED3 2.5
07 Jan 97 12:33, Gwenny the Pooh wrote to Marilyn Burge:
MB>> knows it or not. He's a sadistic bully who gets his jollies by
MB>> watching other people express their pain. I've just now twitted
MB>> him. He is a waste of oxygen and foodstuffs.
GP> I KNEW he picked the wrong person to bully. Go for it.
Reading comprehension problems, Gwen? Read the above again, focusing on
the second complete sentence.
~~~ In other words, you're full of shit, you *know*
you're full of shit, you know that *we* know you're
full of shit, and you simply don't have the backbone
to come out of the full-of-shit closet.
- David Worrell
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: 2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 09 Jan 97 02:40:11
EID:b492 22291500
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32d45a95
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d247e5
PID: GED3 2.5
07 Jan 97 12:50, Gwenny the Pooh wrote to Roger Hunter:
GP> I really am skeptic.
Really?
GP> Take empathy.
I'd rather not.
GP> Now, I know I am empathic, but I've never seen that as a 'mystical'
GP> thing. The more I look at it, the more I am inclined to believe it
GP> is merely hypersensitivity to body language and smell. I think I
GP> "smell" a person getting angry or sad, not that I mystically "sense"
GP> it.
Have you any more evidence to support your belief than do those who claim
it is some "mystical" thing?
If not, you're just as full of shit as they are.
GP> I don't know.
That much is glaringly obvious.
GP> Still working on it.
Oh, you're *working* on it. Please excuse me for interrupting your valuable
scientific inquiry. If I may, though, I do have one question: How, precisely,
are you "working" on it? Burning goofy candles and hoping for the best,
maybe?
~~~ No opera plot can be sensible, for in sensible
situations people do not sing.
- W. H. Auden
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Arthur Barnes
|Sub: "flat earth" town
|Date: 09 Jan 97 02:40:32
EID:5a8a 22291500
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32d45ad9
REPLY: 1:106/7315.0 32d404db
PID: GED3 2.5
07 Jan 97 15:48, Arthur Barnes wrote to Dave Hamilton:
AB> No, see, I'm very inept at anything related to mathmatics.
I would never have guessed.
AB> Except for the calculations that go along with biology and chemistry.
Math is different for biology and chemistry? Back in the old days, math
was just math now matter where you did it.
Of course, we also had to walk to school barefoot in the snow. Uphill both
ways, even.
DH>> Now the book. Don't they expect you to read anything but one
DH>> book, or to take responsibility for passing courses yourself?
AB> We get one book. That's what they teach us out of. I wouldn't know
AB> what else to get. I can't very well pass a test that has questions
AB> that I've never seen and have no idea of how to solve on it.
Silly me. I always thought school was to teach you how to learn. They must
have dropped that part.
AB> That has nothing to do with it. They tried to do all the schedualing
AB> on a new computerized system without even checking to see if things
AB> were right. This semester I was lucky. My schedual didn't change.
My
AB> friends weren't so fortunate. My friend, Thomas, ended up in "Family
AB> Living". A few of my other friends had no third period class. Two
of
AB> my friends ended up in "Journalism II". They haven't even taken
AB> Journalism I. My friend Brandon was marked on his schedual as being
a
AB> freshman. He's a sophmore.
How *do* you and your friends manage to go on, having burdens of this magnitude?
BTW, the word you are looking for is "schedule." I guess English isn't your
strong suit, either.
~~~ This echo is abomination. This echo is also filled
with those who will one day bend their knee to Jesus
Christ and call him Lord, whether they like it or not!
And to think how much fun I'm gonna have fun watching
you say it. - Martin Riley
---
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: What a picture
|Date: 09 Jan 97 00:44:12
EID:3ecf 22290580
speaking of pictures...
was there a notice here about the HolySmoke Webring forming on the Internet?
i found it by accident and set it up yesterday on my page.
http://ddi.digital.net/~cbaker84/christop.html
i was somewhat dismayed that i had to plow thru 3 or 4 levels to find your
Ring notice but i did find it. [grin]
QOFM.
Chris
--- DB B2300sl/001027
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Edgewater_FL_USA (1:18/14)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: The ALIGNMENT LIST, part
|Date: 09 Jan 97 01:56:32
EID:9c4b 22290f00
> (I've received several notes telling me that half of this dissolved in
> transient--so I'm re-posting it in two parts. Thank you to all of you
> who let me know there was a problem.)
only part 1 arrived here.
Christopher Baker Edgewater, FL USA atheist from birth HolySmoke since
(cbaker84@digital.net) inception
(http://ddi.digital.net/~cbaker84/christop.html)
(Site 10 in HolySmoke Webring)
QOFM.
Chris
--- DB B2300sl/001027
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 07 Jan 97 09:40:00
EID:ebfd 22274d00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Karen Davis...
>KD> Biology would indicate that the "first person" would
>KD> have been female.
JS> But he wasn't. REad the book.
What book?
By the way, the "first person" is nonsense: individuals
do not evolve---- populations do. The first humans were
a population of females and males.
... Krishna's birth: the ORIGINAL reason for the season!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: LEE WOOFENDEN
|Sub: Why don't we see God[sic]
|Date: 07 Jan 97 09:45:00
EID:3ceb 22274da0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Lee Woofenden to David Rice <=-
>>LW> Here's something to add to the discussion about why
>>LW> we don't usually see God[sic].
>DR> Don't "usually?!" Since when has anyone seen gods,
>DR> "non-usually" or otherwise?
LW> You reject all the eye-witness accounts,
One cannot "reject" what does not exist, nor "reject"
evidence that has never ever ever been presented. By all
means, do produce your "eye-witness" if you have one.
LW> so there's not much point in discussing it.
Translation: your false, baseless assertion is know by you
to be wrong, therefore you refuse to defend it and thus
make you appear even more the fool.
If my translation is wrong, you need only produce some
evidence for those gods you assert exist. I will happily
retract my skepticism in that arena.
... "You're actually right for once, Satan." -- Darryl Gonzalez
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GWENNY THE POOH
|Sub: End Times are upon us!
|Date: 07 Jan 97 10:57:00
EID:debd 22275720
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to David Rice <=-
>>CG> Is it correct David, that the LDS have a 'Sacred
>>CG> Mountain' in which they are supposed to store
>>CG> their genealogy records?
>DR> I have no idea, but it would not surprise me. The
>DR> location would be in The New Zion (center of the
>DR> USA) if it exists.
GTP> Oh, it exists, dear. It is a huge underground
GTP> climate controlled storage area where genealogical
GTP> records are kept. There have been several "news
GTP> articles" on it in the past few years. You can
GTP> go to your local Ward Library and request copies
GTP> of any record to complete your research. Unless
GTP> you are smart like me and avoid any contact
GTP> with them.
The only reason I can think of for why the cult would
have these records is if they intend to enact "race-"
based laws or perpetrate "race-" based genocide. They
want to know who's "white" (chosen by their gods) and who
ain't (Satan's chosen). If they have any other rational
basis for their lust over geneology, I have not heard
about it. I cannot see how it matters who begat whom.
... Yeah... maybe 5 years from now, when she's 18. -- QF
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Well, women?
|Date: 07 Jan 97 11:35:00
EID:949d 22275c60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to All <=-
FR> #include Promise Keeper JIM STAAL
>iJS> I must say you must live on a pink cloud to have let
>iJS> yourself been deluded by these women. Their general
>iJS> purpose here has been clear to me from the beginning:
>iJS> they hate men in general, and Christian men in
>iJS> particular.
FR> How about that? A surprise, huh?
I have a theory about this in general (not Mister Staal in
particular), i.e. men who hate women.
Much of that hate derives, my theory goes, from
frustration over the fact that women will have little or
nothing to do with them. These men want women to "hate men
in general" because that is the most comforting
explanation for why women will have nothing to do with
these men.
These men feel the neurotic need to be hated by women,
since they desire that their own hatred of women be
reciprocated. That neurosis is constantly inforced because
women do not as a rule hate these men--- they merely
ignore them, utterly apathetic: and that infuriates such
men, increasing their frustration which in turn fuels
their hatred of women. A viscious circle ensues.
The individual manifestation of this neurosis can and
often does, include other rationalizations, such as "women
hate me because I'm black;" "small of penis;" "Christian;"
"bald;" or "prettier than they are."
Conversely, most men know women have a damn good reason to
hate and fear men: history and the day's newspaper says
they should, out of self-defense. And =STILL= women as a
rule do not hate men: they merely fear and distrust them.
Quoting the 1991 _Information_Please_ almanac. Total
arrests: 14,340,900 (male--86.2%, female 13,8%) Arrests
for violent crimes 1989:
Male % Female %
Murder 14,852 88.2 1,989 11.8
Rape 27,796 98.8 325 1.2
Agg. Assault 281,196 86.7 43,215 13.3
Abuses against children
and spouse 42,724 82.0 9,366 18.0
"Sex offenses" other than
rape and vice 70,737 92.4 5,810 7.6
... Please, God, save me from some of your followers!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Grand Canyon Pissing Cont
|Date: 07 Jan 97 11:41:00
EID:7400 22275d20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Dan Ceppa <=-
FR> #include John Musselwhite
>>JM> I've been to the Grand Canyon, Laurie... I've even
>>JM> taken a leak off the edge and watched it fly a mile
>>JM> down.
"So YOU'RE the one!"
>DC> Yes, but is it in your free will to be able to piss
>DC> one mile up?
FR> Einstein already showed us that there's really no
FR> difference and that whether John pissed down into
FR> the canyon or whether piss rushed up the canyon
FR> into John is simply a matter of reference point.
From the Grand Canyon's point of view, it was "Oh shit.
Here comes some more. Goddamned tourists."
... Belief, believe, believes. Conjugates of the verb "to blindly accept"
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Jesse's last lament
|Date: 07 Jan 97 11:45:00
EID:4149 22275da0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Steve Quarrella <=-
>>FR> Oh Jesse, we're all so scared that
>>FR> our gods will team up with Wonder Woman to smite
>>FR> us all! <-snort-> I mean, what if we're wrong
>>FR> and Wonder Woman actually _does_ exist?
>SQ> I'll be -running- to join THAT church!
FR> As would many of us. }:-}
RUNNING to join? No. On my knees crawling, sure.
... Reason kills Creationism dead!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Mustard Bath!
|Date: 07 Jan 97 12:14:00
EID:8898 222761c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to David Rice <=-
>>DR> I "finished" working in the bilge today. What a
>>DR> load of jesusing jesus that jesus was. I created
>>DR> a wiring harness TWICE for the electric bilge
>>DR> pump, and I still forgot the jesus inline fuse!
>>DR> Jesus!
Jesus the jesus to jesus!
FR> So now that you have the bilge pump working, we can
FR> have mustard delivered to the galley under pressure!
FR> Loving it! Good idea.
Sea water to the galley sink would be a plus.
>DR> so I looked at the tube again--- the words "Quick
>DR> Hardening" MIRACULOUSLY turned into "Non-Hardening"
>DR> while I wasn't looking.
FR> Did you use the clear calking material? That works
FR> and is good for underwater jobs... I used it to
FR> adhear the mounting plank to the fiberglass and
FR> it's constantly wet yet still solid. If you used
FR> the white calking material, you deserve everything
FR> that's coming to you. }:-}
Yes, it was Les Nesman white, thank you.
"I know you're good at sports. . ." -- Les
"Why, thank you Les." -- Venus
". . . because your a negro." -- Les
FR> It's a Real Good Thing [...]
Wished him into the cord field?
FR> [...] that you got everything apart before it set.
FR> That pump is a HUGE mother; it would be a bitch to
FR> have to buy another one.
Roughly US$70.00 to replace.
FR> I'll have to see the puppy in action.
Three days ago I rewired the whole jesused jesus system
again--- the third time. Now I am happy with it. Now it
has heavy wire, crimped splices, crimped lugs, and the
inline fuse. I was confused on the color scheme since it
has two or three positive leads and one negative lead.
S1 = floating switch
S2 = manual switch
black
,====================================[battery]==.
| |
Pump ====.====> S1 <====.===============[fuse]===='
red | | red red
'====> S2 <===='
Looking at the switches one sees red wires on both sides,
but at the pump and batter one sees one black and one
red wire.
... Look, Chickie. It's your Bible, your rules; YOU go to hell. - Marty
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: STEVE QUARRELLA
|Sub: Al S.; Warring Christanic
|Date: 07 Jan 97 12:17:00
EID:fc76 22276220
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Fredric Rice <=-
>FR> Promethus and Lucifer are on the side of atheists.
Yeah, and Satan is on the side of Christians. They just
don't realize it.
SQ> You -do- realize that you've probably made the Jesse
SQ> C. Jones Fundy quotefile for that one, don't you? :)
What an honor!
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: 'Bible Prophesy'
|Date: 08 Jan 97 11:45:00
EID:3e55 22285da0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to David Rice <=-
>DR> It has been over two weeks since I posted the 23-message
>DR> series that utterly refuted the myth that there are valid
AS> Dave, I saw it...but I'll be honest with you. Prophecies
AS> are, at the very least, a matter of interpretation, and
AS> arguing which prophecies came true is a bottomless
AS> morrass, and finally, I had more than enough stuff to
AS> address directed specifically at ME. I actually
AS> agreed with a lot of your points but with all the
AS> other stuff I had to answer, I didn't feel like wading
AS> through 23 messages going--"well, I agree here, no, I
AS> disagree there..." etc.
In Thomas Paine's "The Age Of Reason" books one and two
he explained why the god(s) would not resort to revelation
and prophesy--- his reason what exactly what you said:
"Prophecies are, at the very least, a matter of
interpretation...." They are therefore flawed, and if
the god(s) is perfect, a perfect means would be used.
But that's the LEAST of the "Bible Prophesy" belief's
problems.
... Yeah... maybe 5 years from now, when she's 18. -- QF
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: BILL FORSETH
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 08 Jan 97 11:55:00
EID:4807 22285ee0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Bill Forseth to Nate Cookson <=-
>NC> A guess on your part.... The FACT remains it is
>NC> one of the most published books in the history
>NC> of mankind. And one of the MOST READ.
I loke it when imbicilic fundies (redundant) use the
word "FACT" in their sentences--- if makes their
entire argument immediately suspect.
BF> Hustler is a big seller, too. Does that lend credence
BF> to it?
Mein Kamph was required reading in Germany schools. That
must mean it is the word of god.
And I read Big 'Uns myself. . . .
BF> Popularity has a poor claim on truth.
I also doubt that the Bible is "one of the most read"
books in history, considering the vast majority of Bible-
owners have never read it. Aesop and Shakespear probably
outnumber Bible-readers fifty-to-one.
... Newt does -NOT- speak for me!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: fundy clown
|Date: 08 Jan 97 12:06:00
EID:7948 222860c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Staal <=-
>JS> There was no intent to defraud.
DC> What do you call begging money for what you try to pass
DC> off as music?
If Madona and Mick Jagger can do it, why not James?
... An accommodating vice is better than an obstinate virtue.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: I'll be back...
|Date: 08 Jan 97 12:18:00
EID:c00f 22286240
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Rice <=-
>DR> ". . . lay down under a tree, and FUCK MY BRAINS OUT!"
>DR> (Farrah Fawcett Majors)
DC> Hmmm, I don't remember her in that movie...
It's possible I have in mind "Cannon-ball Run." Same movie,
different actors.
>DR> Or when the gas pump jockey asked the Mad Hungarian if
>DR> he's cold, AFTER the latter warms his hands by putting
>DR> them on his motorcycle's engine until they sizzle.
DC> Then, there was the time he was speeding over a pass, hit
DC> some ice, and became the world's first tree hugger!
"Oh, I do so hope the Mad Hungarian sees that bit o' black
ice."
... Drink till she's cute. Stop before you get married.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Carl Sagan
|Date: 08 Jan 97 12:22:00
EID:3331 222862c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Rice <=-
>DR> became a raving fundamentalist Creationist (multi-
>DR> redundant), and died in the saving arms of Jesus.
DC> Well, it's all over now. The Rapture has occurred
DC> and took only Carl Sagan to heaven. The fundys can
DC> all go home now, as they weren't choosen because
DC> they were idiots.
And the fundy's will be refused when they ask their
cult masters for refunds on their "love offerings."
... You lie out of both sides of your anus, aka your mouth, Staal. -- DC
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Holiday Wishes
|Date: 08 Jan 97 12:26:00
EID:3c0f 22286340
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Gwenny The Pooh <=-
>Gt> Works for me. You bring the Egg Nog I'll bring the
>GT> Capt Morgan.
DC> Can I bring Morgan Fairchild?
I'll bring Morgan Brittney.
... Your charade is wearing thin, Jimbo. Just like your lack of meds. -
DC
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GLEN TODD
|Sub: True Folk
|Date: 08 Jan 97 12:31:00
EID:ccff 222863e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Glen Todd to David Rice <=-
GT> 'Community' or 'people' is closer than 'coven' as
GT> 'coven' is presumptively an initiate study and
GT> working group, which would remotely be applicable
GT> only to the small subset of Asatruar who are actively
GT> involved with the priesthood and with magick. The
GT> name 'Asatru' literally translates as 'True to the
GT> Gods'; specifically the High Gods of the Scandinavian
GT> and Teutonic lands, the Aesir and Vanir. In a larger
GT> scope (as I originally used it), I would define that
GT> term as including any person who is honourable and
GT> ethical, and who is true to their kin and kindred,
GT> and to their people and the path of their people.
Thank you for the Wednsday School [*] lesson. :-) Now
you can answer another question I have.
I'm looking for an English translation of Wagner's "The
Ring," in both music and word. If there isn't an English
translation in music, I'd take the original. Is there
such a beast?
[*] This is a wit test.
... are you a athiest or a thiest? If so, what denomonation? -- Pollock
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: humor the fundy fools
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:01:33
EID:9606 2229a030
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff3c
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1a142c87
PID: FM 2.02
RC> I don't *believe* anything, period.
AS> Well, then it becomes moot, doesn't it? You don't even believe
AS> in the world in front of you, then.
rc> Of course not, as having *belief* in that which is right in front
rc> of you has to be the most superfluous thing I've ever heard of.
He's turning into a metafundy. He wants to make things which are manifest
in existance equal to those which are not and then attribute belief to both.
~*~ It does not take a complex to know that I am persecuted
in this conference. - Jesse C. Jones
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: demonic pacts
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:05:39
EID:dc66 2229a0b3
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff3d
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1a142c8e
PID: FM 2.02
RC> I never received my Secret Atheist Undergound instruction manual.
SQ> Call 1-800-RICEBRO for your copy.
rc> I tried that already, but all I got was a spell checking
rc> program mailed to me that changes correctly spelled words
rc> to the Fred Rice variants.
Just think, with the way things are going in the United States, _my_ way
will eventually become the standard way. }:-}
~*~ "May the Lord Jesus Christ soften your heart, Mr Martin." - Doug Snead
"He seems to have done a very good job of softening your brain."
- J.J. Hitt
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:16:08
EID:ae6b 2229a204
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff3e
REPLY: 1:221/1503 32D1A095
PID: FM 2.02
>>FR> How about a contest where theists pray for something to happen and
>>FR> atheists pray for something else to happen... We could tally-up the
>>FR> results and use them to show the value of praying.
>>as> Fred, exactly WHAT would that prove?
FR> You're an ass, Al.
rv> Nothing like dry casting with out a hook,
rv> and catching a fundy on the first cast.
What's funny is that he wasn't my intended target.
I had hoped that my intended target would propose some test conditions which
I would have agreed to reguardless.
The whole point is that thinking at deities _always_ results in answers
to people's prayers -- and it doesn't matter which gods one thinks at.
A contest would prove the point and I think that's why the intended fundy
didn't take the bait. He knows that one could pray at a table cloth and
get an answer.
~*~ Who needs a mind when one has a bible? - David Rice
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:24:47
EID:bc03 2229a317
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff3f
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d241a9
PID: FM 2.02
DW> Well, technically speaking, Buddha isn't a god (he never claimed to
be,
DW> IIRC). Not that that stops lots of people from worshipping him as one
DW> anyhow.
gtp> True. I believe most Buddhists are quite close kin to
gtp> atheists. But there are still more Buddhists than xtians.
Buddhists have been involved in a great many inhuman slaughters in the past
just like Christianity, Islam, and Judism. I wonder if there's anything
seriously different between religions when they contain the potential for
such things.
One of the last series of Buddhists slaughters was against fellow Buddhists...
They think that when their leader dies he's automatically reincarnated as
a baby. Two groups each "found" their reincarnated leader, one a 10-year-old
and the other an 8-year-old. The two groups went to war.
~*~ Maybe He did say something and it just was not recorded. - Steve Bedard
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Holysmoke convention
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:29:09
EID:b0fc 2229a3a4
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff40
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 74212bbd
PID: FM 2.02
KW> Or team up with others of us who cant stand to sleep in nightclothes!
DM> Ah, that would be me.
DM> (Lucky me!)
kw> Well, that'll make three (four? I assume that Glen will
kw> be there, too) in the clothing optional room.
We're going to find out just how many naked pagans can fit in a Las Vegas
hotel room. Cool.
~*~ The stronger the supernatural beliefs, the worse the inhumanity.
- James A. Haught
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: More Toddlings, News at 11
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:33:28
EID:50cc 2229a42e
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff41
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d369ec
PID: FM 2.02
gtp> Hey, folks. My daughters now have points
gtp> and will be joining us in the fray.
"Show us their points!"
[er, sorry... had to be said.] }:-}
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: More Toddlings, News at 11
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:34:07
EID:50cc 2229a443
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff42
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d369ec
PID: FM 2.02
gtp> (Now we outnumber the Rices, even with the new brother. Neenerneener)
I've got three boys here who can type... }:-}
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: The steve winter faq
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:37:19
EID:28d7 2229a4a9
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff43
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A68283D
PID: FM 2.02
FR> thought that the measure making them responsible has
FR> never passed. Or, perhaps it's a state-by-state thing.
jb> State-by-state.
That's good to know. I'll have to dig up some specifics and get the publications.
Yesterday my wife's Jeep was hit by an old woman who should really have
been retired from driving years ago. I hope I don't have to take the little
old woman to court.
jb> And in NC, for losing, Stevie could
jb> end up owing Concentric TRIPLE damages.
Man I wish. That would teach the fuck a lesson.
~*~ All the evidence indicates that the universe is simply about
15 billion years old, and that's that. - Hector Plasmic
Please provide evidence that the earth is 15 billion years old.
- Johnny Mckinney (fundy; equates age of universe with age of Earth)
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:43:11
EID:734f 2229a565
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff44
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32d25de8
PID: FM 2.02
PD> Of course, this still doesn't prove the existence of God but it
PD> could show that there is actually something in praying anyway.
jd> There is no need for a prayer test.
jd> Every occupied hospital bed is evidence that prayer doesn't work.
[...cuts...]
All very good points! Nothing fails as badly as prayer fails.
~*~ Origin: MARANATHA! NETWORK, KILLING FOR JESUS! (1:102/890) - FLR
I wonder if a Fido Policy complaint against your node would work?
If not, prayer will. - Martin Riley
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:44:49
EID:8108 2229a598
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff45
PID: FM 2.02
KB@> Why? because some old book says so?
cp> This "old book" has survived for literly thousands of years.
The Iliad is older than that... Do you pretend that Zeus also exists?
If not, you're being dishonest with yourself.
As you can see, the fact that ignorant desert dwellers believed in the occult
2,000 years ago only serves to prove the lack of credability. The mere
fact that there is no evidence for deity constructs stands.
~*~ When I became a Christian, I found myself in a dilemma.
- Johnny Mckinney
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:47:45
EID:5524 2229a5f6
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff47
PID: FM 2.02
dw> The student in question was wearing black lipstick (which seems
dw> to be a current fad nationwide), a teacher claimed that the
dw> lipstick violated this rule and called in the principal to expel
dw> her. The school was sued over it, mainly because the rule was
dw> so vague that there was too much room for inconsistancy in
dw> enforcing it. The student was allowed back in school, but
dw> her parents transferred her to a different school anyhow. The
dw> general opinion locally is that the school administrators are
dw> a bunch of idiots for expelling the girl.
Thanks for the update... utterly amazing! No, I had no idea what the background
was and to hear it I find that the story is even more bizarre than what
the news reported.
And a double standard? What if a boy wore black lipstick to school?
~*~ 'SIN' is a purely religious concept. To those of us who have no
religion, sin doesn't exist except as an abstract theoretical
concept. - Kelsey Bjarnason
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Starfire
|Sub: Hello
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:49:13
EID:9514 2229a626
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff48
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d3ed26
PID: FM 2.02
star> Hello people I have begain to post
star> in hollysmoke.:} I am Gweny's girl Starfire.
Greetings and welcome!
star> The quickest way to a mans heart is with a broadsword,
Ah, daughter like mother... we routinely check your mother for hidden weapons
when she posts in here.
~*~ I give thanks to God for my limited mental capabilities...
- Andrew Conner
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: do you know this gay?
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:53:04
EID:b70d 2229a6a2
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff49
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 73654ff4
PID: FM 2.02
> Thought you'd be itnerested in this........
> * Original To : all, 1:124/9005.221
> * Original From: Mahmut Kursun, 2:2480/13.145@fidonet
> * Original Date: Jan 04 21:49
> Hey, I just diddled this Webpage:
> http://www.stbbs.com/personal/frice
"Diddled?" Is that anything like masturbating while looking at
my web page with my photograph on it?
> Do you know who it is? There is a picture of a clerk sitting on a table
> with a bottle of coke lite on the table and a laptop and there are
> a couple of Music Cassettes beside the bottle.
Cool. I'm a clerk. I'm sitting on a table.
> I can imagine this is Glodbreg? Would you help me with that buddy?
> --- FastEcho 1.21
> * Origin: YOU DON'T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE (2:2480/13.145)
> SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
Interesting. I'll have to see what "diddled" means in zone 2.
What's neat is that the web pages are _wonderful_ advertising... The number
of files that get downloaded from here is astounding.
~*~ Thanks for allow me to post this Fido News! - Martin Riley
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Well, women?
|Date: 09 Jan 97 21:00:10
EID:6207 2229a805
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff4a
PID: FM 2.02
> FR> #include Promise Keeper JIM STAAL
>>iJS> I must say you must live on a pink cloud to have let
>>iJS> yourself been deluded by these women. Their general
>>iJS> purpose here has been clear to me from the beginning:
>>iJS> they hate men in general, and Christian men in
>>iJS> particular.
> FR> How about that? A surprise, huh?
> I have a theory about this in general (not Mister Staal in
> particular), i.e. men who hate women.
[...cuts...]
Saved to disk. I think your theory holds a great deal of merit.
~*~ Psychiatrists are in business for one reason only, to control or
kill as many beings as possible. - Scott Rider
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Jesse's last lament
|Date: 09 Jan 97 21:04:08
EID:de67 2229a884
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff4b
PID: FM 2.02
>>>FR> Oh Jesse, we're all so scared that
>>>FR> our gods will team up with Wonder Woman to smite
>>>FR> us all! <-snort-> I mean, what if we're wrong
>>>FR> and Wonder Woman actually _does_ exist?
SQ> I'll be -running- to join THAT church!
FR> As would many of us. }:-}
dr> RUNNING to join? No. On my knees crawling, sure.
A religion where every male has to walk bent over. Cool.
~*~ If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic. - Starwyn
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Mustard Bath!
|Date: 09 Jan 97 21:14:31
EID:e3ee 2229a9cf
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff4c
PID: FM 2.02
>>>DR> I "finished" working in the bilge today. What a
>>>DR> load of jesusing jesus that jesus was. I created
>>>DR> a wiring harness TWICE for the electric bilge
>>>DR> pump, and I still forgot the jesus inline fuse!
>>>DR> Jesus!
dr> Jesus the jesus to jesus!
Yes, I see the tight compartment you must work within. (Jesus must be 'in
you.') And I suspected you had a wire to lift the hose somewhere even before
you mentioned it; it was obvious.
FR> So now that you have the bilge pump working, we can
FR> have mustard delivered to the galley under pressure!
FR> Loving it! Good idea.
dr> Sea water to the galley sink would be a plus.
That shouldn't be too difficult. Another pump... unless it's a hand pump.
I've been running my engine a little every night for the last week. It
starts right up within a few seconds every time without primeing.
>>DR> so I looked at the tube again--- the words "Quick
>>DR> Hardening" MIRACULOUSLY turned into "Non-Hardening"
>>DR> while I wasn't looking.
FR> Did you use the clear calking material? That works
FR> and is good for underwater jobs... I used it to
FR> adhear the mounting plank to the fiberglass and
FR> it's constantly wet yet still solid. If you used
FR> the white calking material, you deserve everything
FR> that's coming to you. }:-}
dr> Yes, it was Les Nesman white, thank you.
"Someday there will be walls here!"
That clear silicone stuff works great... dries in a day no matter how wide
the bead, too. I keep checking my bilge mounting and it's still firm. 'Course
_salt_ water has yet to touch it.
dr> "I know you're good at sports. . ." -- Les
dr> "Why, thank you Les." -- Venus
dr> ". . . because your a negro." -- Les
"Hold me closer, tiny dancer."
FR> It's a Real Good Thing [...]
dr> Wished him into the cord field?
He thought bad thoughts. "You be dead now! Be dead!"
FR> [...] that you got everything apart before it set.
FR> That pump is a HUGE mother; it would be a bitch to
FR> have to buy another one.
dr> Roughly US$70.00 to replace.
What did you pay for the 115vac inverter?
We didn't have power for three days here at the house so I pulled the boat
battery out and put it in my living room. I wired a car headlight to it
for light at night and we invited people and children over for popcord,
coffee, and the mystery radio tapes you gave me. I had the only house with
electric light strong enough to read with -- every other house was totally
dark or had flickering candle light.
Afterwards the power came back and I put the battery back into the boat
-- it fired right up, even after running the lights for untold hours.
I wonder what the inverter would do to the battery.
FR> I'll have to see the puppy in action.
dr> Three days ago I rewired the whole jesused jesus system
dr> again--- the third time. Now I am happy with it. Now it
dr> has heavy wire, crimped splices, crimped lugs, and the
dr> inline fuse. I was confused on the color scheme since it
dr> has two or three positive leads and one negative lead.
dr> Looking at the switches one sees red wires on both sides,
dr> but at the pump and batter one sees one black and one
dr> red wire.
Do you have a continuity tester? That would have helped pick apart the
wires. And it's a Real Good Thing that you've decided to do things right
the third time.
~*~ Did Galileo give up the Catholic faith even in the face of persecution
and the threat of excommunication? I think not. - Charlie Ray
...instead of giving up the faith, he gave up the truth. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 09 Jan 97 21:16:07
EID:a0fe 2229aa03
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff4d
PID: FM 2.02
BF> Popularity has a poor claim on truth.
dr> I also doubt that the Bible is "one of the most read"
dr> books in history, considering the vast majority of Bible-
dr> owners have never read it. Aesop and Shakespear probably
dr> outnumber Bible-readers fifty-to-one.
During the populating of the United States the Sears Catalog was the most
widely distributed and read book.
~*~ If only more christians read their bibles there'd be less christians.
- Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: I'll be back...
|Date: 09 Jan 97 21:16:49
EID:e75f 2229aa18
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff4e
PID: FM 2.02
DC> Then, there was the time he was speeding over a pass, hit
DC> some ice, and became the world's first tree hugger!
dr> "Oh, I do so hope the Mad Hungarian sees that bit o' black ice."
"If you can catch us, you can HAVE us!"
~*~ I didn't join the Human race -- I was drafted. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Christian Dating Service
|Date: 10 Jan 97 22:04:46
EID:7236 222ab097
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0515d3c5
PID: FM 2.02
I heard today that Ted "Yawn-so" (I've spelled it the way it sounds; I heard
it on the radio) killed himself on the 30'th of December. He's the Christian
who was accused of 38 counts of child sexual molestation and rape over the
course of some 28 years and 5 different churches.
His masters had known he was a pedophile and yet they did nothing but send
him to "counciling" afterwhich he was reinstated at another church and given
access to more children.
After the 38 counts were tossed out due to statute of limitations, there
remained six civil cases to be held. During this time the guy was shipped
to a Washington, DC neighborhood -- a family neighborhood, I might add --
by his masters where he took up a job in a book store.
KFI AM 640 Los Angeles talk radio with "Ken and Bob" covered this guy and
the epidemic problem of Christian masters rapeing and sexually mollesting
children. The fact that the Christian higher-ups do little to solve the
problem was questioned.
One of the people who came onto the show was the mother of one of the victims
of this Ted guy. She had, at the time, not paid much attention to the accusations
her son had made when he was being mollested by this Christian master; she
didn't ask her son for the details and simply placed a complaint with her
priesthood which assured her that the issue would be looked into.
After Ted made the newspapers she was shocked to realize that her son was
probably subjected to a great deal more than she thought. She mentioned
that she hadn't bothered to check back with her priesthood to see if the
problem was taken care of because she trusted her priesthood and thought
that it would have been taken care of.
She later learned that her priesthood had taken her complaint and those
of several others and simply shipped Ted off to another church rather than
(as any NORMAL person would have) shot the bastard or taken him to jail
-- the moral and right thing to do.
On the 30'th of December the guy killed himself and in a letter demanded
he was innocent (never mind the fact that he had previously confessed to
his masters repeatedly and was shipped from place to place because of his
"little problem.")
One caller tried to pretend that the Christian religion wasn't the problem;
that there are bound to be a few bad apples in any profession and that this
type of thing was aborational (an apologetic Catholic spindoctor caller,
by the way.) The talk show hosts wouldn't let that claim lie without being
challanged and pointed out that _by_profession_ the Christian priesthood
is a heaven for this kind of thing and that _possibly_ peple join the Christian
priesthood because they harbor pedophile feelings and hope that the temptation
to rape children will be stopped by taking a vow of non- sexuality.
Over all the show covered all the bases of Christian masters using their
posistions of mock authority to violate everything the rest of us hold moral
and right while also underscoreing again and again the fact that Christian
leaders do little to nothing to solve the problem, in effect making the
Christian priesthood a dating service for pedophiles.
---
* Origin: Xians aren't forgiven 'til their victims forgive them (1:218/890)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Christian Hedemark
|Sub: Christ-Like
|Date: 09 Jan 97 11:41:00
EID:fc0a 22295d20
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c4acf72e
CH>DR> Abbot, Henry: hanged, drawn and quartered at York, England, on 4
July,
CH>1597DR> Abel, Thomas: hanged, drawn and quartered at Smithfield, England,
on
CH>30 Jul
CH>DR>1540
CH>DR> Alfield, Thomas: tortured and hanged at Tyburn, England, on 6 July,
1585
CH>DR> Almond, John: hanged, drawn and quartered at Tyburn, England, on
5
CH>December
CH>(MUCH deleted!!!)
CH>David - Trivia info: Shortest verse in the Bible is... "Jesus wept."
CH>I am sure he wept over all the suffering you brought to my attention.
CH>Is it "Christ-like" to weep over suffering. It is not Christ-like to
CH>kill.
CH>All your examples are Man's cruel acts towards Man.
CH>Jesus (Christ) gives us no such examples of Himself acting in such
CH>manner.
CH>The only thing Christ-like about such torture, is that Man did the same
CH>thing to Jesus.
Fat lot of good his sniveling did all those folk killed in his name.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Mental Floss prevents Moral Decay.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Brett Johnson
|Sub: Re: Brett Johnson; jealou
|Date: 09 Jan 97 11:41:00
EID:aa72 22295d20
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org df8bf2ca
BJ>For something to be sacred, it has to have some sort of exclusivity.
This is
BJ>the nature of man's relationship to God. This is the ultimate meaning
of the
BJ>verse "you shall not have other gods besides me."
BJ>The same situation exists for other sacred relationships in this life...the
BJ>most akin to the "God-Man" relationship being that between the husband
and
BJ>wife.
Considering the number of abused wives in this so-called christian
nations, that sure says a lot for your god.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Mental Floss prevents Moral Decay.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Brett Johnson
|Sub: Re: Holiday Books
|Date: 09 Jan 97 11:41:00
EID:8b7b 22295d20
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a5eea97c
BJ>GT> No 'more than likely' about it, Brett. They _were_ all 'adopted'
from
BJ>GT> Pagan/Heathen customs, and not just the 'Christmas' ones. Check
out the
BJ>GT> origin of the name 'Easter' some time, as well as the symbols associated
BJ>wiGT> it.
BJ>All of which were baptized by Christians, their usefullness as symbols
BJ>transfered to Christian feasts and celebrations of the Christian mysteries.
BJ>I have no problem accepting this fact. My problem is of course when
some
BJ>pagans take it a step further and state that Christians somehow "borrow"
from
BJ>pagan ideals when it comes to what constitutes their faith.
Borrow nothing, they were down right stolen. How do you baptize a rite
to another god, anyway?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Militia is English for Hamas....
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 09 Jan 97 07:11:37
EID:4ca0 22293960
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 c33cc56f
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d3127e
On (07 Jan 97) Al Schroeder babbled to Marilyn Burge...
AS> Yeah, at least for some medical things. They're trying to
AS> "double-blind" the experiments so as to eliminate any placebo
AS> effect (i.e., the person being prayed for doesn't know if
AS> he's being prayed for or not.) But I don't think they've
AS> broken it down by religion yet. More like, those prayed for
AS> SEEM to be doing better than the obverse.
MB> This "experiment" would be impossible to set up. Just because the
MB> designated group is not praying for a certain person is no sign
MB> that some of the other 6 billion people on the face of the Earth
MB> aren't praying for them, and just because somebody in the group IS
MB> praying for a certain person is no sign that some of the other 6
MB> billion people on the face of the Earth aren't praying that the
MB> person will be given a quick a merciful end to their suffering.
MB> How do you possibly control for THAT?
AS> You can't, and that's an excellent point. Except perhaps to
AS> think if you take a large enough group, both as a control
AS> group and the group being prayed for, that such things will
AS> equal out. But that is indeed a factor. Indeed, those who
AS> pray who KNOW the person, would not a hypothetical diety take
AS> their prayers into account MORE than a comparative stranger
AS> who is disinterestedly praying for them?
Still doesn't account for it. A designated pray-er, according to
your "logic," could easily be overcome by a concerned friend or
family member. How do we keep THEM from praying and bollixing the
controls?
AS> All we can do is assume, in a large enough sampling, there
AS> are people praying for many of them, but that the additional
AS> prayer might "nudge" it more in one direction than another.
AS> Do you perhaps have a better suggestion? Perhaps something
AS> inanimate, a la Brawley's meteorite? That would not normally
AS> have something prayed for one way or the other... I also
AS> wonder how we would counter a claim from the parapsychology
AS> crowd...how some would claim it's man's innate "psychic"
AS> powers acting rather than a deity. Suggestions? Not just from
AS> you, Marilyn, anyone got a good "test for God"? And that
AS> assumes God WANTS to be tested for...
No, I don't have a "better idea." I am merely pointing out why
such a study is totally impossible to conduct. Will you believers
NEVER give up on the idea that your worldview can be scienfically
verified, and merely get on with your little faith practices and
leave the rest of us alone?
... Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is ETERNAL.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 09 Jan 97 07:16:10
EID:03d0 22293a00
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 2faa8ee9
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d31289
On (07 Jan 97) Al Schroeder babbled to Marilyn Burge...
MB> Not a pretty picture. And, it means that, from my selfish
MB> point of view, I'll have at least THREE rotten Christmas
MB> seasons in a row. Last year it was Louie's chickenpox, this
MB> year it's Eileen's cancer, and next year. . . .
AS> I didn't say anything about this earlier, because I didn't
AS> think you'd be able to see it. But I'm very sorry you are
AS> going through this, but I'm glad they got the malignant one
AS> out, and hope the treatments do slow any others down, as long
AS> as the quality of life stays fairly decent for her...and for
AS> those who are supporting her.
They didn't "get the malignant one out." They got the malignant
one out of her BRAIN. The one in her lung is measurably larger,
and has mestastisized to the point where it spread to her brain.
THAT is the actually source of the problem, and they aren't even
going to TRY to get at it.
... Person+delusion = psychosis. People+delusion = religion.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: cheese whiz
|Date: 09 Jan 97 07:19:29
EID:bd22 22293a60
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 84606d3b
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d33d8f
On (08 Jan 97) Gwenny the Pooh babbled to Marilyn Burge...
Gt>> (And I still want to know why this can't be the cause of the
Gt>> alledged increase in breast cancer)
MB> I believe all cancers are a function of age (the older you get,
MB> the more likely you'll get cancer).
Gt> I am sure that the incidence of cancer, like many diseases, increases
Gt> with age. To call it a "function" of age is a bit much.
I got it backwards. AGE is a function of CANCER INCIDENCE, if
I'm not mistaken about the concept to begin with. That is why
more people die of cancer today than did, say, a hundred years
ago; people live long enough now to die of cancer instead of
pneumonia or the other infections for which we had no cures.
MB> If that is true, then we must look at the baby boomers and their trip
MB> through the population and see where they are at the moment. Having
MB> been born in 1946-64, they would be between 42 and 50 at the moment.
MB> How much you want to bet THAT has something to do with the increase
in
MB> cancer?
Gt> Undoubtedly. All stats have been increasing, unless you are doing it
Gt> statistically, because of the fact there are some many more people.
No, that would be the RAW NUMBERS that are increasing, which says
nothing about the incidence per 1,000, or 100,000, or whatever.
MB> Given the fact that few menopausal women are all that thrilled
MB> about having another infant in the house, I wouldn't be surprised if,
MB> after adjusting the breast-cancer/abortion numbers for age, much of
MB> the conicidence wouldn't disappear.
Gt> How do abortions fall out by age?
I don't know, and I doubt if Nate has even entertained a thought that
there might be a connection, or has the brainpower to investigate the
question even if he did consider it. And, if he considered it, he
didn't have the honesty to admit the flaw in his little post on the
topic, now, did he? That would put him in the same category as
Appletoon.
... If we honor the rights of gays then everyone else will want rights too!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Dander raising
|Date: 09 Jan 97 07:24:05
EID:ce20 22293b00
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 c44a66c4
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d44ecb
On (08 Jan 97) Al Schroeder babbled to Marilyn Burge...
AS> Yes. That does indeed make a difference. Even in flaming, there are
AS> limits, insofar as common decency is concerned. And insulting one's
kids
AS> crosses it for me...when the kids are in no way involved.
GT> My point precisely. Fun's fun, but that was uncalled-for.
MB> Notice his sig.line now. He sent me a private message when I
MB> called him on what he was doing in here, and I answered the
MB> private message IN PRIVATE. Now he's using one of the paragraphs
MB> from that PRIVATE message as his sig.line.
AS> I believe he mentioned, while Robert and I were discussing the
AS> confidentiality of email, that any email sent to him he feels free
to
AS> do with what he will, without consulting the sender. So the echo as
a
AS> whole was warned, but you might not have seen that.
MB> Isn't there something in POLICY 4 about being excessively
MB> annoying? The worse of it is, he's deliberately TRYING to be
MB> excessively annoying. The boy seriously needs help, whether
MB> he knows it or not. He's a sadistic bully who gets his jollies
MB> by watching other people express their pain. I've just now
MB> twitted him. He is a waste of oxygen and foodstuffs.
AS> That may be the fastest way. I don't think David's violating any
AS> rules, just being a jerk.
No, I think he is. He's being excessively annoying, and, I've got
an e-mail from him that admits he's doing to deliberately, just to
see the Todds' reactions to his taunting.
... There are no Christian Moderators here that are going to save you.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Christian Hedemark
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Christ-Like
|Date: 09 Jan 97 06:26:04
EID:ef94 22293340
MSGID: 1:273/416.0 219093f4
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20b 95-0056
I said, and Martin replied:
MG> CH> I am sure he wept over all the suffering you brought to my
MG> CH> attention.
MG>I see you have chosen the apologetic route. Please explain to me why
your
MG>merciful and all powerful god lets this kind of shit go down.
Martin!
Thank you for the reply. Sure, I would be happy to answer your question,
but help me try to relate to you, please. I ask...
Have you any faith that you would like to share? A belief in a supreme
being? Minimally, a "Higher Power"?
BTW - you appear to be capable of elevated communication. May we keep
vocabulary civil while speaking to each other?
Love
---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ Jesus was a carpenter. (imagine a complaining customer!)
--- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.20b
* Origin: The Classic BBS * Upper Darby, PA, USA * 610-394-9392 (1:273/416)
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|From: Christian Hedemark
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 09 Jan 97 06:26:05
EID:4b23 22293340
MSGID: 1:273/416.0 219093f5
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20b 95-0056
Re: FR>FR> How about a contest where theists pray for something to
FR>FR> happen and atheists pray for something else to happen... FR>fr>
We could tally-up the results and use them to show the FR>fr> value of
praying.
FR>ch> Fred!
FR>Please, call me Fred.
You mean... "Fred", and not "Fred!" ?
OK. Please call me "Chris". I only go by "Christian" so that I won't
accidentally pick up my son's mail, who goes by "Chris".
FR>ch> Exactly to whom (or to what) would an atheist pray to?
FR>Any deity construct we wish -- there are thousands to pick from.
I was an agnostic, and never realized that atheists believed in, or
prayed to, "deity"(s).
Educate me: are you unique, or do all atheists exhibit faith in "diety"?
FR>ch> I would think
FR>If your masters would allow you to.
Absolutely! God gave man "free will" to think and do as he wishes.
"Self will" is another way to phrase that.
In the Lord's Prayer, we ask that "Thy will be done." We ask in prayer,
because we struggle with the battle between "self will" and "His will".
Love
---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ I surrendered.
--- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.20b
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|From: Christian Hedemark
|To: All
|Sub: Christian Hedemark
|Date: 09 Jan 97 06:26:05
EID:2e62 22293340
MSGID: 1:273/416.0 219093f6
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20b 95-0056
Hi "ALL"
Fred quoted the following:
FR>Christian Hedemark
FR>CH> I will respond to your questions and commentaries when you drop
FR>CH> the vulgarity you have used towards me here and elsewhere.
And then Fred added:
FR>Amazing how easy it is to force a fundy to shut up, huh?
You will find that Fred and I are speaking to each other on
other threads, and Fred has cleaned up his language.
Amazing how easy it is to communicate without vulgarity, huh?
But I will continue to "shut up" to any that can't "clean up".
Love
---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ I surrendered.
--- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.20b
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|From: Christian Hedemark
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 09 Jan 97 06:26:06
EID:fd08 22293340
MSGID: 1:273/416.0 219093f7
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20b 95-0056
Jonathan !
JF> Since I'm kind of new to this debate, let me introduce myself...
Warning: shake the dust from your sandals when you leave here.
JF> I'm a proud (relatively speaking) Lutheran who goes to church every
Sunday
JF>(not always voluntarily, but still).
I'm not Lutheran, but most Tuesday nights I go alone into a local
Lutheran chapel to pray. Always voluntarily. If you don't go
voluntarily, you're wasting both your, and God's, time.
JF> Anyhow, the brunt of my message...
JF> Something that disturbs me are the people who stand outside the courtroom
JF>OJ's civil trial or abortion clinics. These people claim to be tolerant,
JF>loving Christians, but cry "murderer!" and would gladly kill the target
of
JF>their wrath. Can't these people see what they're doing? Can't anyone?
Jesus wan't tolerant. He was forgiving, and full of love... even telling
us to love our enemies. But, do you remember some tables being turned
over? Tough to figure, huh?
God (the Father) wan't too opposed to striking people dead. After all,
He does hate sin. Sometimes He waits for natural biological death,
before judging us. In the Old Test. we see Him judging earlier than
that. Even in the N.T., we have some people being struck dead for
simply telling a lie.
O.J is a tough one to judge. I am glad I don't have to do that.
Abortionists are easier to be sure of in one sense: we do know that they
abort.
I don't want to get into a debate on abortion, but if you wish to
contemplate a thought: how do you think Jesus feels about abortion?
(I don't lose sight of the mothers suffering either)
BTW - check out page 448 in your hymnal. There are several Lutheran
hymnals, but you may find my favorite hymn on that page.
(Methodist = page 92, Presby = 280)
Love
---
þ OLX 2.1 TD þ In, not of, in, not of, in, not of, in...
--- ViaMAIL!/WC4 v1.20b
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Dander raising
|Date: 09 Jan 97 18:17:54
EID:ce20 22299220
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 340fab7b
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d44ecb
On (08 Jan 97) Al Schroeder babbled to Marilyn Burge...
AS> Yes. That does indeed make a difference. Even in flaming,
AS> there are limits, insofar as common decency is concerned. And
AS> insulting one's kids crosses it for me...when the kids are in
AS> no way involved.
GT> My point precisely. Fun's fun, but that was uncalled-for.
MB> Notice his sig.line now. He sent me a private message when I
MB> called him on what he was doing in here, and I answered the
MB> private message IN PRIVATE. Now he's using one of the
MB> paragraphs from that PRIVATE message as his sig.line.
AS> I believe he mentioned, while Robert and I were discussing
AS> the confidentiality of email, that any email sent to him he
AS> feels free to do with what he will, without consulting the
AS> sender. So the echo as a whole was warned, but you might not
AS> have seen that.
Fine. That makes him an ethically challenged sadist. Wonderful.
NOT!
... ... How do you get a lawyer out of a tree? Cut the rope.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: "sucking up"
|Date: 09 Jan 97 18:19:04
EID:4278 22299260
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 15b899c7
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d4178
On (08 Jan 97) Fredric Rice babbled to Marilyn Burge...
mb> Lou and I both have that one on our vehicles. I also have the
mb> "original," but that fell off Lou's pickup the last time he went
mb> through the car wash. My latest is a bumper sticker of a Jesus
mb> fish being swallowed by a shark named "science."
FR> Love it! Where can _I_ get some of these?
FR> I park in a Pentecostal church parking lot every work day. I wonder
FR> what would happen to my car...
FISH
Dept. 10
P.O. Box 26523
Colorado Springs, CO 80936
Have fun. Write them and ask for a catalog. They've got lots of
goodies.
... "Daddy, what does '78% of C: formatted' mean?"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: GET SPECIFIC
|Date: 08 Jan 97 22:57:51
EID:c7c9 2228b720
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7367a455
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d2837c
On Jan 07 17:04 97, Tiger Eyes of 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org wrote:
TE> "King of Twinkie Eating Men Who Can't Get Woman to Save Their
TE> Lives".
You need a coffee cup with that printed on it.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Star Goat loves each
|Date: 08 Jan 97 22:59:42
EID:35ad 2228b760
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7367a75e
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A68283C
On Jan 04 17:13 97, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/62 wrote:
JB> If you are using less than Netscape 3.0 or Microsoft
JB> Explorer 3, it doesn't work too well.
It doesn't work at all.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Holiday Books
|Date: 08 Jan 97 23:17:53
EID:b22a 2228ba20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7367d71c
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A6A012E
On Jan 06 12:39 97, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/62 wrote:
JB> BTW. Took the Java clock off my page. You shouldn't have
JB> any trouble with it now.
But the Dancing Chickens are still there.
It's this block of code here:
![]()
SRC=fire2.gif>
I guess it's supposed to a flame or something.
But I still say it's a chorus line.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
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|From: Leonard Bernier
|To: All
|Sub: Zecharah 11:12 / Matthew 26:14-16
|Date: 09 Jan 97 12:59:00
EID:2f2b 22296760
PID: PDQMail v2.60 RE0333
PRAISE GOD !
PROPHECY: - The Messish will be betraped for thirty pieces of silver.
And I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but
it not, never mind! So they weighed our thirty shekels as my wages."
FULFILLMENT: "Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went the
the chief priests and said, "What are you willing to give me if I
Deliver Him [Jesus] to you? And they counted out to him thirty pieces of
silver. So from that times he sought opportunity to betrap His."
"Be of good courage, and He shall strengthen your heart, all you who
hope in the Lord."
Jesus Saves
--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
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|From: Leonard Bernier
|To: Paul Brandreth
|Sub: John 3:16
|Date: 09 Jan 97 14:37:00
EID:90d2 222974a0
PID: PDQMail v2.60 RE0333
PRAISE GOD !
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
who ever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus Saves (1:122/705.118)
--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
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|From: Leonard Bernier
|To: All
|Sub: Psalm 41:7 / John 13:18
|Date: 08 Jan 97 11:20:00
EID:1921 22285a80
PID: PDQMail v2.60 RE0333
PRAISE GOD !
PROPHECY: - The Messial will be betrayed by a friend.
"Even by close friend, in whom I trust, who are my bread, has lifted
up his heel against me."
FULFILLMENT: I [Jesus] do not speak concerning all of you. I know who I
have chosen: but that Scripture may be fulfilleded, "He who eats bread
with Me has lifted up his heel against Me."
Jesus said: "My sheep know my voice, and I know them, and they follow
me." (John 10:27)
Jesus Saves
--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
* Origin: Far Point Station (1:225/364)
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|From: Leonard Bernier
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hello
|Date: 08 Jan 97 13:55:00
EID:d83b 22286ee0
PID: PDQMail v2.60 RE0333
PRAISE GOD !
Dear Fredric:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only
begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but
have everlasting life."
Jesus Saves
--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
* Origin: Far Point Station (1:225/364)
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|From: Leonard Bernier
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hello
|Date: 08 Jan 97 14:13:00
EID:d83b 222871a0
PID: PDQMail v2.60 RE0333
PRAISE GOD !
Dear Fredric,
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting
life."
Jesus Saves (1:218/890)
--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
* Origin: Far Point Station (1:225/364)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 31 Dec 96 11:00:26
EID:925a 219f5800
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c39972af
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A624388
On (29 Dec 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Jim Staal...
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jim Staal <=-
MH> iJS>> My point was that if her smart A** mouth aggravated him as
MH> iJS>> much as it did me, my revenge was extracted in advance.
JH> Let it be known that the above
JH> states that wife beating is OK if the wife has a "smart A**
JH> mouth."
MH> iJS> No, I believe the doctor was saying very clearly that 'Gwenny
MH> iJS> beating' is OK if the Gwenny (and she does) have a 'smart A**
MH> mouth. iJS> Nothing to do with wives in general. Gwenny in
MH> particular.
MH> Jim PLEASE tell me this doesn't mean what it seems to mean ...
MH> because if it does, (and you agree with the sentiment), well ... it's
MH> appalling.
Whatever it means, it was spoken by some 'doctor' and not me. (post so
old I don't remember who), but of course I don't agree with the
sentiment, silly.
... "Mommy, mommy! Where's Fluffy?" "Shut up and finish your casserole."
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 31 Dec 96 11:02:33
EID:1cc9 219f5840
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 6465831f
REPLY: 1:261/1137 9f008295
On (30 Dec 96) Curtis Johnson wrote to Jim Staal...
CJ> CJ>> Mr. English Major from Calvin College, you wrote "being a
CJ> CJ>> _man_ a penis is . . . "
JS> Necessary for gender indentification, as in: It's a boy!
CJ> You are about to have a little lesson in sentence
CJ> construction. Don't panic! It'll be over with within this
CJ> screen.
CJ> Now, let us examine the sentence you wrote: "Yeah, but
CJ> being a _man_ a penis is a good indication of gender, whether you
CJ> choose to have sex or not."
Ok, I should have worded it thusly: Being a man, _having_ a penis is
etc.
CJ> (There
CJ> is a type of eunuch that has both penis and testicles lopped off.)
Poor dude! :)
CJ> CJ>> You apparently do not think he used it to have erections. In
CJ> CJ>> fact, to you, apparently the only thing that keeps it from
CJ> being CJ>> completely useless is to indicate that he was "a _man_."
CJ> CJ>> And if he wasn't, then his message wouldn't have been worth
CJ> CJ>> listening to?
JS> No. Merley identifying Him as male gender. That is what the arguement
JS> was about.
CJ> Your answer to my question "And if he wasn't [a man], then
CJ> his message wouldn't have been worth listening to?" is "No."
CJ> Quite evidently you care much more about the penis of Jesus
CJ> than what he said. If he wanted to preach to you, it seems that
CJ> he would have to expose himself to you first to satisfy you.
CJ> Were you always such a dick-worshipping misogynist, or only
CJ> after you signed up with Promisekeepers?
THat was not the intended implication. What I was saying was that being
a man had nothing to do with the value of His message or why He came
here in the first place.
(1 Tim 1:15 NIV) Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full
acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I
am the worst.
And you can sign my name to that one if you like.
... Blue Wavers: folks who love Blue Wave Offline Mail Products!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: bold-faced liar
|Date: 31 Dec 96 11:06:14
EID:47b2 219f58c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f2bb1a2c
REPLY: 1:261/1137 9f00830c
On (30 Dec 96) Curtis Johnson wrote to Jim Staal...
CJ> CJ>> My error, I should have said "did not" instead of "did."
CJ> CJ>> You of course recall the Enc. Britannica passage? It surely
CJ> CJ>> introduces doubt about John Calvin according with your view.
JS> To you, perhaps, not me.
CJ> Jim Staal, a weightier authority than the Encyclopedia
CJ> Britannica. Jim Staal, who knows what John Calvin said even when
CJ> Jim Staal says he doesn't know what John Calvin had to say on a
CJ> subject.
Huh? I really do not care at this opoint.
CJ> JS>> It is not OK to execute them for their beliefs, OK?
CJ> CJ>> Might it not even be an indication that one is not among
CJ> CJ>> the elect?
JS> It would be an indication they are not led by the Spirit, but rather
by
JS> some conjecture of mere man.
CJ> Let me make it clearer: would not executing a unitarian
CJ> Christian simply for their beliefs be a good indication that the
CJ> executioner is not among the elect?
Thankyou for clarifying yourself. My answer is: No, not necessarily. it
would, however, be a good indication that one is currently totally in
touch with the will of God. My philosophy is this: when I act in a
correct manner it is all God's doing. When I fail, the blame rests
totally on Jim Staal.
... For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 6:7)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be sav
|Date: 31 Dec 96 11:10:31
EID:9f91 219f5940
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 adcb7470
On (28 Dec 96) DAVID RICE wrote to J.J. HITT...
DR> ... Good news: it's "KILL JIM STAAL FOR JESUS" Week here at HolySmoke!
Oh, no-o-o-o-o-o! Not again!
... God loveth a cheerful giver. - 2 Corinthians 9:7
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Canadian Putz
|Date: 31 Dec 96 11:13:19
EID:528a 219f59a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 1a8c2704
On (30 Dec 96) Richard Smith wrote to ALL...
RS> };> Jimson Staalin wrote in a message to Marty Leipzig <:(
js> Merely send $1.50 plus $2500.00 for S&H (no personal checks, please)
js> for my 1996 complimentary demo tape to:
RS> js> Jim Staal Ministries
RS> js> P.O. Box 171
RS> js> Grandville, MI 49468-0171
js> (please allow 6-8 weeks for delivery)
RS> ML> Don't hold your breath, Jimbo. Blue ain't your color.
js> Aw, c'mon. It's Christmas, for crying out loud, and my baby
js> needs a new pair of shoes.
RS> Is begging for money allowed in this echo?
No policy 14 error here. We've been through this all before. Note the
very first line of this post.
... And if children,then heirs;heirs of God,and joint-heirs with Christ.(Rom
8:17)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 31 Dec 96 11:12:28
EID:e6ce 219f5980
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 09b8db91
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 2c824a08
On (30 Dec 96) Richard Smith wrote to Rod Swift...
RS> He's a fucking bigot, period.
And you sir, are an obvious ignorant gnome.
... gaggaragglechunkssplashingupinyourfaceasyouembracetheporcelaingoddess
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: what a waste
|Date: 01 Jan 97 18:41:48
EID:caf1 22219520
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 795b2fa2
REPLY: 1:3603/210 142ff840
On (30 Dec 96) ROBERT CURRY wrote to Jim Staal...
RC> with: Gwenny the Pooh
RC> JS>> (BTW, hav[ing] been married more times than I does not give
RC> JS>> you more experience than I. I was speaking about my having
RC> JS>> experience with a _successful_ marriage.)
RC> And you define success by how much of your wife's money you waste?
JS> No.
RC> You just waste your wife's money because she's the one who does the
RC> actual work for it and not you.
RC> So how do you define a successful marriage to exclude Gwenny's?
Beats me.
... Quench not the Spirit. (1 The 5:19)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 01 Jan 97 18:42:07
EID:7dfb 22219540
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 65fce482
REPLY: 1:207/212 13963399
On (30 Dec 96) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (29 Dec 96) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> True, but the savior could as easily have been female.
JS> yes, but the jjpoint is, He wasn't. He was a man.
KD> Why did God hate me so much that he gave us a savior only you men
KD> could relate to?
You couldn't relate to yourj father because he was a man? You can't
relate to your brother because he is a man? You can't relate to your
husband because he is a man? Jesus Christ is all things to everybody.
... Trespassers will be experimented on!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 01 Jan 97 18:43:15
EID:b170 22219560
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 d090a605
REPLY: 1:207/212 bbfcbc29
On (30 Dec 96) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (29 Dec 96) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Biology would indicate that the "first person" would have been female.
JS> But he wasn't. REad the book.
KD> I'm not convinced that book is accurate.
I am.
... If corn oil's made from corn, what is baby oil made from?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Leviticus
|Date: 01 Jan 97 18:43:34
EID:4e3d 22219560
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f648750e
REPLY: 1:207/212 4c33b1ee
On (30 Dec 96) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (29 Dec 96) Jim Staal wrote to Dan Ceppa...
JS> His Father was God, not Joseph.
JS> (Luke 3:23 NIV) Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he
JS> began his ministry. He was the son, _so it was thought_, of Joseph,
JS> the son of Heli,
KD> Then he doesn't qualify under the prophesies, then does he? If he
KD> isn't the son of Joseph he isn't of the house of David.
Ah...check Mary's lineage once.
... Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. - John 6:37
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 01 Jan 97 18:44:05
EID:57cc 22219580
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 904774b9
REPLY: 1:207/212 2cc08f95
On (30 Dec 96) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (29 Dec 96) Jim Staal wrote to Richard Smith...
JS> No. That _fact_ is, that Promise Keepers is organizing the first
JS> million man march on Washington.
KD> And women will die because of it.
KD> Promisekeepers is an organization intended to destroy my rights. As
KD> such I will oppose it until it is shown to be what it is.
could you please provide some evidence to back up this obvious false
claim?
... Someday we'll look back on this and shudder!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: I'm Back
|Date: 01 Jan 97 18:45:15
EID:e532 222195a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 3f733999
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32c84c78
On (30 Dec 96) Steve Quarrella wrote to Marty Leipzig...
SQ> God willing, everything is working now and I'm back on-line.
SQ> BTW, Phil, I'm still waiting for the reply on Original Sin.
SQ> Salue, Marty!
Why do you bother with this putz?
SQ> Think you should let him know that you're still waiting for answers
to
SQ> your questions?
No. Marty has all the answers.
... And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul. (Acts 19:11)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: execute her ? [1]
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:32:28
EID:e0ec 22229400
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 41c07b87
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32ca2dac
On (01 Jan 97) Gwenny the Pooh wrote to Jim Staal...
Gt> As I have told you on several occassions, the ONE TRUE (tm) KJV/NIV
Gt> Parallel Bible.
We agree on something.
... Well, cover me with egg and flour and bake for 14 minutes...!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Around the World in 80 Pr
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:33:40
EID:b74f 22229420
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 1135558d
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8A65438C
On (01 Jan 97) Michael Hardy wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> I disagree. The Bible is for all time and is not trapped in culture:
JS> (2 Tim 3:16 NIV) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
JS> teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
MH> I know the Bible says this about itself,
You have been here too long, Michael.
MH> Jim, but where is there
MH> *anything* in the Bible that demonstrates any kind of knowledge that
MH> wasn't available to the people of the time? How come the Creation
MH> story doesn't mention microbes, just for one example.
It wasn't necessarily needed at that time. And, obviously not God's
plan to bring that particular time. But, back to the question at hand:
The relevency of scripture in today's world and life. Do you see
anything, as far as exhortation that in the NT (Pauline books, for
example) that isn't for the 90's?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Peculiar State of Mind.
|Date: 02 Jan 97 18:58:05
EID:0add 22229740
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 96d7760b
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8888c54f
On (02 Jan 97) Laurie Appleton wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> Thanks for the quote. I hope I have made myself clear as
JS> far as what I believe concerning 'big bang'.
LA> Yes, thank you for that. You are a rather courageous and
LA> long suffering person to put up with the corny tripe that
LA> passes from messages from god-haters.
:) More like a blend of stubborn Hollander tenaciousness and a lot of
Grace.
... and pulling back on the stick makes the cow smaller...
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: fundy clown
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:00:48
EID:32fd 22229800
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c61bcde6
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 d617d713
On (31 Dec 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
DC> On (26 Dec 96) Jim Staal got back to Marty Leipzig...
JS> There was no intent to defraud.
DC> What do you call begging money for what you try to pass
DC> off as music?
Now when have I _ever_ done that?????
... It is more blessed to give than to receive. - Acts 20:35
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Leviticus
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:01:20
EID:7c26 22229820
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 76617139
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 f6aa5f77
On (31 Dec 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
DC> On (29 Dec 96) Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa...
DC> Why did Joseph send his son to the cross?
JS> He didn't.
DC> Stop contraticting yourself, Jimbo.
JS> His Father was God, not Joseph.
DC> And the evidence is?
JS> (Luke 3:23 NIV) Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he
JS> began his ministry. He was the son, _so it was thought_, of Joseph,
JS> the son of Heli,
DC> And, other than the circular reasoning, provide evidence that your
DC> god screwed Mary and got her pregnant.
he didn't.
... US non sequitur society--we don't make sense, but we sure like pizza.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:02:16
EID:6af0 22229840
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 6b077e5e
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 c28b709e
On (31 Dec 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
DC> On (26 Dec 96) Jim Staal got back to Gwenny the Pooh...
Gt> Remember how you were recently saying that Wild is a wife abuser?
JS> Never said it.
DC> Bull-fucking shit you didn't, you misogynistic bastard.
Evidence???
Gt> Remember how you claimed I had never told you that Wild was my SECOND
JS> Never said that either.
DC> You lie out of both sides of your anus, aka your mouth, Staal.
Why do you say these things about me?
DC> Get back on your meds. You're a disgrace to each and every
DC> species to know that evolution produced the likes of your sorry
DC> bigotted ass.
What evidence do you have to make such an accusation?
... gaggaragglechunkssplashingupinyourfaceasyouembracetheporcelaingoddess
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:04:38
EID:6af0 22229880
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f2ca03e9
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 699b4634
On (31 Dec 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> ... I love my meat tender and flesh -er fresh.
DC> Your choice of taglines shows you to either a fucking asshole
DC> or a fucking asshole. There is no third alternative.
So eloquent. So educated.
... I was gonna be a hairdresser but neurosurgery pays better ...
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Your Daily Brother Jim
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:05:45
EID:8c15 222298a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 39b51b3d
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 4ece77ed
On (31 Dec 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
DC> On (29 Dec 96) Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift...
RS> Then again, this is exactly the sort of stuff that makes me think
RS> you're head isn't filled with brain cells. In fact...
JS> Whatever...my question is where do you dig up these ancient jposts?
DC> Isn't it great, Jimbo? Your idiocy archived for all to see yet
DC> another time. Told you that you should have taken your meds.
Well yeah, the international notoriety is grand, but...
... This is the greatest thing since sliced toothpaste.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:06:38
EID:b7bd 222298c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c0d81226
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 4185b25f
On (01 Jan 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
DC> On (29 Dec 96) Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift...
JS> KS> JS>So what has that to do with speaking/spelling Gook, eh?
JS> KS> You really are an asshole.
JS> JS> You really get to be at a loss for words, don't you?
JS> rs> he's right, you racist asshole.
JS> Racist? In what manner?
RS> Can you please explain the context and meaning of the word "gook"
RS> as you have used it above?
JS> No problem: Vietnamese language. That should be obvious.
DC> You got your butt kicked all over the Echo the last time around
DC> with that statement of yours, Jimbo. Are you really such a
DC> glutton for punishment that you'll try to re-argue your lost
DC> case?
That's why I wonder where this dude is answering post from last summer
or beyond.
... Blue Wave: Reality alterations while you wait.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Around the World in 80 Pr
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:07:31
EID:0588 222298e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 b319e347
REPLY: 1:123/67 32c9079a
On (31 Dec 96) Shelby Sherman wrote to Jim Staal...
SS> 27 Dec 96 22:30, quoting Jim Staal to Shelby Sherman:
JS> Yeah, but not only out of context, but not even in the same realm.
SS> What is out of context, oh clueless one? I quoted the verse directly
SS> from the bible.
27 Dec 96 22:31, quoting Jim Staal to Shelby Sherman:
SS> SS>> Satan doesn't exist either, Moron.
JS> Your opinion.
SS> It's not an opinion, it is the default state. Do you have any
SS> evidence that the god Satan exists?
Yeah. Look in a mirror and check out the inner man.
JS> Is it necessary to be abusive just because we hold
JS> different opinions? I am no moron.
SS> Since opinions count, it is my opinion that you are a moron.
Where does it say they count (to other than the one expressing or holding
the opinion?
... But have you actually tasted an airline toilet seat?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:41:38
EID:9b0c 22237520
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 8d5f74fd
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 7307e45f
On (01 Jan 97) Martin Goldberg wrote to Jim Staal...
MG> RS>> the division and rift that formed that led Vernon Howell to
MG> RS>> the leadership of the cult and the ousting of previous cult
MG> RS>> leaders, etc, etc.
JS> But there was no proof.
MG> This is good. Staal is asking for proof. Proof of anything. Yet you
MG> accept your entire bible with no proof.
MG> It just shows that you are selective as to what you believe is
MG> correct. You require no proof for physically impossible feats, but
MG> when someone tells you that a madman took young girls for his
MG> pleasure, you deny it vehemently since he carried a bible around with
MG> him.
MG> Why is that?
I am not denying that he did that. I am saying wretched Reno lacked the
evidence to butcher them off as she did.
... @N@ only uses Blue Wave on days that end with a "Y"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: execute her ?
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:42:48
EID:eb7d 22237540
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 135583e6
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 32cc145e
On (02 Jan 97) Sue Alexander wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> Neither you or your wife have never been divorced? You are that maniac
JS> who used to kick the crap out of her?
Gt> I was a Mormon when I got divorced from the christian wife abuser.
Gt> Wild has never been married before. You know that very well.
Ok, I remeber this post. I was responding to 'wild's' alleged comments
that he knew no divorced pagans or some such. It therefore stood to
reason to comment that then _he_ must be the dude that did the nasty
stuff (although I knew he was not). Get the picture now? It also
interesting that gwenny is now denying that she was Mormon at the time.
(confusing, ain't it?)
... Try to die strangely so your outline will look cool.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:48:06
EID:2214 22237600
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 8916b027
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32bff9cc
On (24 Dec 96) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> On 17-08-96 at 10:40, JIM STAAL wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
JS> KS> JS>Thank you. Basically, it consists of visiting a discusting place
JS> KS> (the JS>police station), getting a form, researching the court
dockets
JS> KS> of 1978
JS> KS> Ah. The police station is a disgusting place.
JS> KS> But you hang out in biker bars.
JS> KS> Figures.
JS> Well, the biker bar has nice, helpful people in it, who, if you needed
JS> them, would protect and serve.
RS> Do they send you flowers on the anniversary?
The police? The bikers? Who? And the anniversary of what? My visit to
the bar? The bust? What?
... Put on the whole armour of God... - Ephesians 6:11
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Educational Experience
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:48:56
EID:a83a 22237600
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 a01dee2c
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32c62f90
On (29 Dec 96) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> On 20-08-96 at 17:15, JIM STAAL wrote to DAN CEPPA:
JS> On (18 Aug 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...
JS> DC> As do I. As you noted in you message back to him on this topic,
JS> DC> it doesn't have to be to me, as I'm not a member of the ethnic
JS> DC> group he slandered. At the same time, I happen to be part of
JS> DC> the human race and cannot allow that slandering of any ethnic
JS> DC> group at anytime for any reason.
JS> But slandering an entire group of human beings just because of their
JS> ideology or beliefs is OK, isn't it Ceppa...
RS> You make the assumption that Christians are deserving of being
RS> recognised as human.
RS> How silly of you, Jim.
I see. If not, then what? Why are you so bigoted against one segment of
society, Rod?
... Did you get my memo about the squid-tossing contest?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: the promise keepers
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:50:23
EID:de1e 22237640
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 14ad8f8c
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32c6338e
On (29 Dec 96) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> I don't see that at all. Having attended two promise keeper programs,
it
JS> is obvious to me the motive is to build up the family and the nation.
RS> Ah, bull crap, Jim. It's in it for the money. Tens of thousands
RS> of people paying at least $50 is MILLIONS of dollars of income.
RS> And the cost of the events are really small in comparison to the
RS> income generated.
Evidence of this alleged 'profit'?
JS> rs> how can you ignore [and take part in] such a scam?
JS> I do not see the enrichment of the human soul to be a scam.
RS> We were discussing the part about ripping people off blindly for
RS> such "enrichment", Jim. What's your take on that?
Where does the 'ripping people off blindly' part come in? People who go
into and 'enrichment seminar', knowing in advance who is going to be
the speakers, musical ministers and entertainment, and the cost are not
getting ripped off, blindly or sightedly. What's your beef?
RS> If these people were doing it out of the goodness of their heart,
RS> they'd not be making tens of millions of dollars of profit a year
Evidence of this alleged 'profit'?
RS> -- but would be offering ministry on a cost-recovery-basis only...
Plus administration: (1 Cor 9:14 NIV) In the same way, the Lord has
commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living
from the gospel.
RS> ... or even for free!
Mine was free. A kind brother covered the cost as well as lodging.
RS> Rod "and besides, the promisefilth are hateful bigots anyway!" Swift
RS> :)
I don't know about this 'promise filth', but Rod Swift sure is, as
evidence by his previous post.
... So many pedestrians...SO little time....
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Crash goes your bullshit
|Date: 03 Jan 97 14:59:23
EID:bbe5 22237760
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c594e0c3
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32c472da
On (28 Dec 96) Rod Swift wrote to Ric Carter...
RS> On 15-08-96 at 15:01, RIC CARTER wrote to JIM STAAL:
RC> JS> The order to kill and destroy innocent lives at Waco came from
Reno's
RC> JS> desk. I watch CNN, you know.
RC> The order to kill and destroy innocent lives at Waco came from David
RC> Koresh. The head-shots, the fires, were perpetrated by his followers
RC> upon their fellows [and children]. You are disconnected from reality.
RS> Thank you, o thank you, for pointing this out to Jim.
Ric has absolutely no evidence to confirm his claim, whereas Janet Reno
has already admitted that the buck stopped at her desk concerning the
order that resulted in the deaths of the victims at Waco.
RS> He'll now claim that Janet Reno made and supplied the bullets and
RS> guns to his followers, and she really went in after him when he
RS> refused to pay up for the guns -- or something as equally lunatic.
No.
... Every one of us shall give account of himself to God. (Rom 14:12)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 03 Jan 97 15:01:16
EID:bbdb 22237820
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 d5f669f7
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32c475b0
On (28 Dec 96) Rod Swift wrote to Karl Schneider...
RS> On 19-08-96 at 16:42, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to JIM STAAL:
KS> JS>The place was in Ludington...uh...called 'arthur's'. All that aside,
KS> JS>however, there is a great place in GR called Leather and Lace that
KS> JS>features Harley and leather decorating both in decor and clientele.
Give
KS> JS>me a call when you are here and I'll have you over to the
KS> JS>modestly vast and opulent Staal estate for bites and a beverage.
KS> I will if I have time, will be at Optical Supply on Plainfield.
KS> Leather and Lace, eh? I would bet my eye teeth that's a gay biker
KS> bar.
RS> It's probably the Blue Oyster. "Proctooooooooooor!" :)
No, actually, the bar in Ludington was Arthur's and Leather and Lace is
anything but a gay biker bar. It is a rough and ready biker bar that
caters to the country music crowd (biker-wise).
KS> Might be fun.
RS> Very!
Well, pop your gay little *ss in there, announce your preference and see
what happens. :)
... If you pull the wings off a fly, does it become a walk?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Jimbo's 2-D.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:00:31
EID:d6d2 22246800
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 d6026a72
On (02 Jan 97) Marty Leipzig wrote to Jim Staal...
ML> Jim Staal, bereft (missing the last plane out of Tokyo), said to Marty
ML> Leipzig
JS> On (23 Dec 96) Marty Leipzig wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> A couple of cells of frozen plant material is not what I would call
a
JS> 'planet-full'
ML> The evidence suggests otherwise.
JS> The scientific community can't seem to agree on that.
ML> Give us time. You've been around for over 40 years and science
ML> still hasn't figured you out.
JS> Too deep, eh? :)
ML> Deep as a saucer, sharp as a bagel.
Ahh...you are so very eloquent sir, when you wanna be...:)
... Blue Wave leaves others in the dust pdQWK!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Subtle like a train wreck.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:01:12
EID:e75e 22246820
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 54eb0b12
On (02 Jan 97) Marty Leipzig wrote to Jim Staal...
ML> Jim Staal, bereft (missing the last plane out of Tokyo), said to Marty
ML> Leipzig
JS> On (23 Dec 96) Marty Leipzig wrote to Jim Staal...
ML> Reaping a blighted harvest of topsoil denudation, pesticide
ML> runoff and soil depletion.
ML> No wonder you admire him so.
JS> I have no admiration for the rich. No respect either.
ML> And we return the favor tenfold.
JS> That, Herr Leipzig, is obvious.
ML> There is nothing quite so obvious as our subtlety.
Yeah...and one gets used to it after a bit.
... sad how whole families are torn apart by simple things,like wild dogs.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Staal couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:01:45
EID:c2b6 22246820
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 b1bcf3dc
On (02 Jan 97) Marty Leipzig wrote to Jim Staal...
ML> Jim Staal, bereft (missing the last plane out of Tokyo), said to Marty
ML> Leipzig
JS> On (23 Dec 96) Marty Leipzig wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> Hmmm...and when did you actually hear Jim Staal sing?
ML> I downloaded off the Internet while Dr. Glodbreg was here.
ML> We both had, and continue to have, a hearty laugh at your
ML> attempts to carry a tune.
JS> You apparently have no ear when it comes to music, talent, etc.
ML> For those with said talent, of course. That's why it was
ML> inaudible in your case.
Tsk.
JS> Merely send $1.50 plus $2500.00 for S&H (no personal checks, please)
JS> for my 1996 complimentary demo tape to:
JS> Jim Staal Ministries
JS> P.O. Box 171
JS> Grandville, MI 49468-0171
JS> (please allow 6-8 weeks for delivery)
ML> Don't hold your breath, Jimbo. Blue ain't your color.
JS> Aw, c'mon. It's Christmas, for crying out loud, and my baby needs a
JS> new pair of shoes.
ML> I'm sure Child Protective Services will be glad to hear of
ML> this.
Yeah, my baby is 49 years old.
s
... Many be called, but few chosen. - Matthew 20:16
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:02:47
EID:36f6 22246840
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 03989ffb
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32cbf6fd
On (01 Jan 97) Sue Armstrong wrote to Jim Staal...
SA> Making a good die roll, Jim Staal cast False Christian Scum at Sue
SA> Armstrong .. and all hell broke loose.
SA> Good for you; you're trying something you want to do, and feel
SA> yourself good at.
JS> Thank you, and, I will admit it is not necessarily for everyone, but
JS> slowly but surely I am building a 'fan base'.
SA> Hey, good stuff. Good luck at it.
Thank you. As an artist, you know itisn't easy. :)
SA> Well, OK. I do have a file sitting around that I can send the next
SA> time I see you around. Else you can take a peek and grab the sample
SA> at Al's web site:
SA> http://www.nashville.com/~al.schroeder/do.html
I will check it out. I have Al's ppage in my bookmarks,
... Take the time to snuff the dandelions.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: fundy clown
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:04:32
EID:6098 22246880
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 eb7bebfd
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 32cbf6fe
On (01 Jan 97) Sue Armstrong wrote to Jim Staal...
SA> Making a good die roll, Jim Staal cast fundy clown at Sue Armstrong
..
SA> and all hell broke loose.
SA> I'd watch that tactic, Jim. Sean's picked up on it - ie, saying
SA> something vitriolic, and shrugging it off as a joke - and uses it as
SA> well.
SA> And Marty at least doesn't sit around and blame others for
SA> everything that doesn't go exactly his way.
JS> I would hope he wouldn't. The guy has dough. That _makes_ things go
JS> his way.
SA> The golden rule - he who has the gold, makes the rules. :)
you got it!
SA> Mm. The next time you go, I'll direct you to actual NICE places to
SA> eat. :)
JS> Great. We can compare yours to the ones I have already experienced.
JS> (in ten years, I have visited a few)
SA> Mm. Have you ever been to the Real Jerk out near the Beaches area?
SA> (Funny name, but excellent Jamaican restaurant. You have to go
SA> early, though, because you won't be getting seating after about 7,
SA> unless they've expanded or moved.)
Have to check it out. When I go, I spend a lot of time out in that area.
Can't believe I missed it. Thanks.
... What's all this fuss about endangered feces?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 05 Jan 97 12:09:43
EID:e080 22256120
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 4e34ca81
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 018e8e00
On (03 Jan 97) Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Staal...
FR> You Promise Keeper cultists are truely sickening, you know that, Jim?
js> Nope.
FR> Which is why your evil continues unabaited.
FR> Your Christian evil disgusts me.
js> And your refusal to recognize the truth of God is disgusting to me.
FR> I understand that you're only mouthing off what you know are lies
FR> because you have nothing that can defend yourself from the
FR> embarrassing truth that you are, without doubt, a sick, evil demon.
I guess only time will tell who is correct and who is in error here,
Fred.
... Blue Wavers do it in QWK doors!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Jan 97 12:10:38
EID:d662 22256140
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 fea0d5e9
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32cb349b
On (31 Dec 96) Kelsey Bjarnason wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> How about the removal of bans against recognising same-gender
RS> marriages as legally binding unions in civil law? Or will gay
RS> people of religion (and irreligion, who wish civil marriage) be
RS> still denied their religious and/or civil freedoms?
JS> Nope. Please post a duly recognized definition of marriage.
KB> Why not provide a *useful* definition, since existing ones don't
KB> seem to cover many of the new "options"?
The 'options' are'nt so new. They've always been here.
KB> I'd like to see line marriages included, personally. ;)
Hmmm...'line' marriages? Like on a mirror? Or 'on-line' marriages?
... The problem with a compact is that you don't know it when you hit them!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 05 Jan 97 12:12:10
EID:cdd5 22256180
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 9082fe36
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32cb349c
On (31 Dec 96) Kelsey Bjarnason wrote to Jim Staal...
DR> #1) "Belief" in evolution is irrelivent: it is an
DR> observed fact, not subject to "belief."
JS> Show me the 'observation' where man appeared.
KB> Not necessary to demonstrate that evolution occurs.
Even the evolution of totally different species? Show me some new ones.
... Blue Wave took the sparkle out of Comit!!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 05 Jan 97 12:12:57
EID:7139 22256180
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 255b0fac
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32cb349d
On (31 Dec 96) Kelsey Bjarnason wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> You have a better chance of getting some rough 'n' ready sex from
RS> the Blue Oyster bar than the local cop shop :) :)
JS> Yeah, like I go there with my wife (on vacation) to find rough n ready
JS> sex. get real, will ya?
KB> Have you asked her about the idea? You never know... ;)
Oh, I'm not so sure that such an idea hasn't crossed her mind over the
years (or mine, for that matter) but we've been through all that...
... I'm happy as a clam in heat .. in heat ??
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Well, women?
|Date: 05 Jan 97 12:14:26
EID:8ecb 222561c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c6a12f71
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 010f7c4e
On (02 Jan 97) Fredric Rice wrote to All...
FR> #include Promise Keeper JIM STAAL
iJS> I must say you must live on a pink cloud to have let
iJS> yourself been deluded by these women. Their general
iJS> purpose here has been clear to me from the beginning:
iJS> they hate men in general, and Christian men in particular.
FR> How about that? A surprise, huh?
That I would speak the truth such as above? No surprise at all.
I am known to speak the truth.
... Be on your guard against all kinds of greed. - Luke 12:15
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: ASK AND YE SHAN'T REC
|Date: 08 Jan 97 22:43:25
EID:bc55 2228b560
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 eeb31f1a
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 32d1fc96
On (03 Jan 97) Sue Alexander wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> When interpreted by itself and the Holy Spirit, scripture remains
JS> pure and true to itself. It is, after all, the complete _written_
JS> manifestation of God.
SA> So which version is the "true" version, Jim?
Why the KJV/NIV parallel, of course. :)
SA> Failing that, how
SA> does one know that the Holy Spirit is guiding them on the path that
SA> God has chosen, when there are so many paths out there with the claim
SA> of being the "one, true, chosen by the Holy Spirit" path?
That is where the prayer part comes in.
... How do we get the Beatles back together? Three more bullets!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 08 Jan 97 22:44:55
EID:cc91 2228b580
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 b10cb652
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d20827
On (07 Jan 97) Gwenny the Pooh wrote to David Worrell...
DW> Ya'll are just nice, big, pathetic but still worthwhile targets now.
DW> Enjoy.
Gt> Okay. And you have been relegated to the list that includes other
Gt> rude people like Jim Staal and Nate Cookson. Enjoy.
When was _I_ ever rude?
... ... No, I'm not twisted! Okay, so I'm a little bent at the corners...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dave Ewen
|Sub: Cure
|Date: 02 Jan 97 01:17:00
EID:bcb8 22220a20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ca9c0c
On 08-09-96 at 00:01, DAVE EWEN wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
DE> Yes, a cure, and yes I would certainly expect unhappy noise from the
gay
DE> community at that time just as there is unhappy noise from the deaf
DE> community in this age of cochlear implants.
I'm sure that you will find, however, among people with hearing
impairment there is an overwhelming majority who wish to correct
their hearing so that they may experience aural sensation better
or for the first time.
And it's undeniable that hearing impairment is something that is
an obvious problem.
You've yet to provide any evidence that sexual orientation
difference requires correction. What holier-than-thou parameters
are you using to determine such?
Why are you making the assumption that -- in sexual orientation
-- there is only one "correct" sexuality?
Rod "... enquiring minds want to know!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * The Christian Right is Neither.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: A Serious Question
|Date: 02 Jan 97 07:28:02
EID:4205 22223b80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32caf302
On 07-09-96 at 20:57, J.J. HITT wrote to KEN WIENS:
JH> On Sep 06 16:11 96, Ken Wiens of 1:103/550 wrote:
JH> KW> Right. A perfect Deity Who creates free will by definition
JH> KW> has to stay within the parameters of what free will is
JH> KW> or it ceases to be free will.
JH> No, no, no...
JH> It's DOCTOR Who, not Deity Who.
Quite! As we all know, the good Doctor Who has the TARDIS.
Deity Who has retardis.
Rod "... does that mean people with Deity Who as their leader are
retards?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * The Christian Right is Neither.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Promisekeepers Article
|Date: 02 Jan 97 07:46:06
EID:b19f 22223dc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32caf73e
On 02-09-96 at 22:21, KAREN DAVIS wrote to JOHN PREWETT:
KD> On (31 Aug 96) John Prewett wrote to ryan shaw...
KD> JP> Becke probably "didn't not call Prew-it on his `interracial'
KD> JP> comment" because Becke [unlike you] probably understood that
I
KD> JP> noted the "interracial" makeup of Promise Keepers precisely
KD> JP> because I consider the "interracial" makeup of Promise Keepers
KD> JP> to be a point in their favor.
KD> The interracial makeup does not exist. It is a white male kill women
KD> club.
It's also a kill fag club. And John can't deny that promisefilth
have physically assaulted protesters outside "conferences"
either -- can he?
Rod "... does he advocate their actions?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * C:\DOS C:\DOS\RUN C:\DOS\RUN\WINDOWS C:\DOS\RUN\SLOW
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: the other shoe
|Date: 02 Jan 97 07:53:08
EID:8171 22223ea0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32caf8e4
On 07-09-96 at 15:49, RICHARD SMITH wrote to LYNDA BUSTILLOZ:
RS> };> Lynda Bustilloz wrote in a message to Al Schroeder: <:(
RS> AS> That is your CHOICE, Marilyn. There is no other. And
RS> AS> unless you fight for police cameras to monitor every
RS> AS> aspect of your life and the lives of EVERYONE, you
RS> AS> agree EXACTLY with the concept of free will. You agree
RS> AS> exactly with God. Live with it.
RS> LB> So monitoring DOES equal loss of free will....do you begin
RS> LB> to see why so many here laugh when you trot out the idea of
RS> LB> free will before an omniscient god?
RS> Looks like entrapment to me.
RS> If I put a chocolate cupcake on the counter and then
RS> tell my six-year-old he can't have it and shouldn't
RS> touch it, it's iffy if I'm being a nice guy.
RS> If I then leave him alone with the cupcake and step
RS> around the corner, I'm being irresponsible and unrealistic.
RS> If, while around the corner, I peek to make sure he's not
RS> going after it, I'm entrapping, and I'm not trusting.
RS> If I see him go after it and then step around the corner
RS> and beat him black and blue (which isn't quite as bad as
RS> Hell is, right?), then I am a bully, a fraud, and an
RS> all-around nasty guy.
RS> If I then demand that he love be even while I do this, I am
RS> clueless, and worse.
RS> If I promise him that I will always listen to what he says
RS> and that I love him dearly, what then? If my other son then
RS> starts to beat him for some reason, and he yells out for me,
RS> and I don't even respond, I am a liar and a fraud. AND
RS> perhaps a coward.
RS> Ken Wiens Addendum: If he does indeed take the cupcake, that
RS> doesn't mean that he is not really my son . . . it means
RS> that he is, according to standards I've created, a bad son.
RS> I think you're acutely on-the-ball with this one, IMNSHO . .
RS> . . .
FAQ FAQ FAQ this post! :)
Rod "...it's a good good good sampler one :)" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Any milk can make cheese. Here, have some gerbil cheese.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: word replace
|Date: 02 Jan 97 07:57:10
EID:f412 22223f20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32caf9d6
On 07-09-96 at 02:04, STYX ALLUM wrote to RICHARD SMITH:
SA> > BB EEE RR G EEE M M EEE I EEE RR I SS
SA> > B B E R R G G E M M M E I E R R I S
SA> > BB EE RR G EE M M M EE I EE RR I S
SA> > B B E R R G G E M M M E I E R R I S
SA> > BB EEE R R GG EEE M M M EEE I EEE R R I SS
SA> > G
SA> > TTT H H RR EEE A TTT EEE NN I NN G SS TTT Y Y X X !!
SA> > T H H R R E A A T E N N I N N G G S T Y Y X X !!
SA> > T HHH RR EE AAA T EE N N I N N G S T Y X !
SA> > T H H R R E A A T E N N I N N G G S T Y X X
SA> > T H H R R EEE A A T EEE N N I N N GG SS T Y X X !!
SA> > G
SA> > Now, just go on with your pathetic threat. BTW, this echo is
SA> > NOT broadcast, no matter what you believe.
SA> A matter of perspective... it's retransmitted via satellite.
SA> To me, that's broadcasting on a major scale. ;-)
SA> We're popular. Heheh.
SA> ---
SA> * Origin: 44o01.41'N x 123o07.33'W (1:152/20)
It's a real bad idea to give out the geographic location of the
BBS, mate... Bergemeier may redirect his big Christian arsenal of
tactical weapons to those coordinates...
... we all know he's redirected his big Christian asshole of
tactical stupidity at those coordinates by threatening the ol'
"naughty, child-abusin' language" line to "the FCC".
Rod "... I never knew the FCC had jurisdiction over Australia :)" Swift
:)
* SLMR 2.1 * Close your mind quick! Something blasphemous may get in!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 02 Jan 97 08:15:12
EID:b0e0 222241e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cafe10
On 08-09-96 at 01:09, ROB BURCHAM wrote to KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT:
RB> KW> I do, at times, print off something that I find amusing.
Bear
RB> KW> often takes these prints to work to sneak onto the cork board in
the
RB> KW> nurse's break room. Most often, the offering is found a day later
RB> KW> crumpled in the trash can, but a few have been introduced to the
xerox
RB> KW> machine. The size of Jesus' penis debate from last year even made
it to
RB> KW> the other hospitals owned by the corporation.
A "size of jesus" post of mine made it all the way into Federal
Court in New York, in a Communications Decency Act legal
challenge :)
RB> Say what you will about Jesus, he could never be accused
RB> of premature ejaculation. It takes him three days to rise.
It's been nearly 2 millenia and he hasn't come yet. Talk about
staying power...
Rod "...Jerkers for Jeeezus!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Land rights for gay whales!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: US Senate
|Date: 02 Jan 97 13:26:14
EID:8384 22226b40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cb46f6
On 10-09-96 at 15:44, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to ALL:
KS> I note that as of 5 minutes ago, the Senate rejected Sen. Kennedy's
KS> bill to make it illegal to discriminate against gay persons in
KS> employment.
Actually, it was to outlaw discrimination based on sexual
orientation.
KS> In view of this, I intend to discover which of my employees are
KS> or have ever been, members of (1) a Christian type church, (2)
KS> a member of 'Moral Majority', or (3) any arm of the 'Religious
KS> Right', and forthwith can their asses.
Sack them for being straight.
KS> It's only fair.
Yes, it is. But remember there are NINE states in the US where
sexual orientation job discrimination is outlawed. Make sure you
don't live in one of them :)
Rod "... if you don't, start firing" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Jesus Christ Super Fraud. The Musical!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Atheist eh!
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:05:16
EID:1375 222298a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cb966c
On 10-09-96 at 17:52, JOHN PREWETT wrote to JAN DEBOER:
JP> JP> Atheists are atheists
JP> JP> cause the idea of God makes them feel guilty and scared.
JP> JPas> Actually, the idea of god makes this atheist laugh. [------]
JP> JP> Just a phase your going through. You'll get past that.
JP> JD> Actually, John, you've got it bass akwards......most atheists
JP> JD> have been through the religion phase and outgrew it.
JP> Agreed. You're exactly right.
JP> Most atheist HAVE been through the religious phase and outgrew
it.
I have never been exposed to the indoctrination of the Christian
religion.
I believe that if all children were given the valuable freedoms I
was given as a child, the next generation of humanity would be a
better generation -- having been removed from, and having
expunged, religion from the face of this Earth.
JP> Stage one- Childish belief in whatever religion
JP> one is naturally born into.
I disagree -- Stage one is the immoral brainwashing and
indoctrination of superstition and religion into the children of
parents. Such indoctrination I consider child abuse.
JP> Stage two- Outgrow childhood religion. Atheist. Enjoy
JP> playing "god" by making up one's own rules
JP> of right and wrong.
I disagree -- Stage two, as I see it, is the self-discovery that
the indoctrination one has received as a child is less and less
relevant to life. Hence, search for more apt philosophies of
freethought, and secularism. Rebellion from organised religion.
JP> Stage three- Become aware of the dismal, depressing ramifications
JP> of atheism. Become aware of spiritual activity
JP> in the world that you realize you don't understand.
I disagree -- Stage three is only reached by the emotional
wet-blanket types, moral basketcases, and the feeble among humans.
I classify the stage three types as those who dispense with reality
in favour of fantasy when they are:
1) being unable to deal with the consequence of mortality
2) being in a hopeless position
3) being in a position of despair
4) without a philosophical moral compass, and hence
require one out of a book of religion
5) being in an escapist mindset from reality
I am sure there are other reasons why people turn to religion
because of what they fear...
JP> I'm in stage four.
JP> Personal faith in the living Jesus Christ.
I disagree -- Stage four, self-deception through *personal
choice*. Note, stage one is deception through indoctrination,
and is rebelled against because of the forced nature of such
childhood indoctrination.
* SLMR 2.1 * Castration takes balls.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: So Jesus *was* GAY?
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:18:18
EID:b06a 22229a40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cb997a
On 10-09-96 at 10:36, KEN WIENS wrote to JOHN PREWETT:
KW> JP>Does the NT described Christ ever lobby government at all?
KW> This is an argument from silence. The NT does not cover
KW> the whole life of Jesus Christ, either. It covers His
KW> birth, a few details about his youth, his public
KW> ministery, his death and resurrection. What he did
KW> outside these categories we don't know.
So you admit you cannot prove that Jesus was heterosexual?
I still give it to you that his placid nature, his wearing of
really really nice long girly clothes, hanging around with a
harem of guys, people always worshipping his "body", and
always having really ragey parties with only male invitees
probably suggests that Jesus was a gay person. :)
Jesus was a big girl's blouse, Ken!
Rod "...I wonder if he listpshspssss!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys.
* SLMR 2.1 * Nuke a godless homeless commie gay baby whale for Christ!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: God and god, what is god
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:26:20
EID:169e 22229b40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cb9b5c
On 09-09-96 at 12:05, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to MICHAEL HARDY:
ML> MH> It is the critics who insist "No designer would have
ML> MH> done it that way." To which it is appropriate to ask: How do you
know?
ML> We don't KNOW, but we can surmise; a simple exercise in logic:
Correct! This is what I have attempted to do by asking why
Michael Hardy supports a God that has -- by logic -- produced
something that this deity's own scripture says is "good" yet is
riddled with tragic design flaws. I've also identified how
illogical the action of said deity are to despatch such creation
to hell due to his own design fault!
ML> Premise: The Creator of the universe is omniscient and perfect;
ML> therefore his creations would be perfectly designed.
Premise is accurate. For the sake of argument, we'll say that
his design would be *logical* and with a *purpose* and be
perfectly designed for those parameters, correct...
ML> Observation: The universe is far from perfectly designed.
ML> (Example: the fraility of human design, the insanely complex
ML> and ad hoc nature of hemocoagulation, organisms the exist by
ML> endoparasitism, ad infinitum.)
Correct.
ML> Conclusion 1: There is no such thing as a perfect creator;
ML> i.e., the universe got the way we observe it through natural
ML> forces and processes.
This is one correct conclusion that may occur. And the most
likely when we examine the Christian Deity Structure and the
inherent illogical nature of such being.
ML> Conclusion 2: The creator is not perfect, i.e., the universe is
ML> an ad hoc, poorly designed, botch-up of a job.
This is also a correct conclusion that may be drawn. Why doesn't
V'ger fix the carbon units, eh?
ML> Conclusion 3. The creator of the universe is perfect, although
ML> he is deceitful by hiding his perfection through shoddy
ML> workmanship.
Another correctly drawn conclusion. What would God want with a
starship? :)
ML> So, Mike. Which is it?
Uh.... Now do you expect an answer from Michael about that?
Rod "...Alex, I'll take 'confounding religious arguments' for
$200 please" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * That was zen... This is Tao!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Goodbye /3
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:29:22
EID:3765 22229ba0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cb9c12
On 10-09-96 at 10:43, KEN WIENS wrote to BECKE JONES:
KW> BJ>Do you, as a Christian, believe you have the right to judge the actions
KW> BJ>others?
KW> Absolutely. I do not have the right to judge where they are going
KW> to spend eternity. But if I see someone stealing I am going to
KW> judge that action as stealing. I will gladly be a witness to the
KW> the act of stealing to convict the person. If I see someone
KW> attack another wrongfully I will judge that as an unprovoked
KW> attack and will gladly be a witness in order to convict the
KW> attacker.
KW> Is that clear enough? Or do I have to spell it out even more
KW> for your little pagan mind?
Well, no you probably don't have to spell that out to us.
Wouldn't it be nice if Christians were honest enough to give such
an answer that can be followed and is fully presented in, say,
response to a question like:
1) Why are you a dickhead?
2) Do you believe in a young-Earth creation, and please
list all the reasons why?
3) Are you related to a syphilitic goat?
4) [courtesy of Night Stand with Dick Deitrich] Have you
ever had a homosexual experience?
Rod "...that's the answers I want to see!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Don't worry, I'm fluent in wierdo.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Luke 10:17-20 (NKJV)
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:45:24
EID:3579 22229da0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cb9fd4
On 09-09-96 at 16:36, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to LEONARD BERNIER:
KW> >i66686 - CPU of the Beast
I'd like to share a picture with everyone...
The INHELL 666MHz Pentagram-Inside(tm) Pentagram Pro Processor.
It's from the Joke Wallpaper Site on the Internet. I'll share it
around the next time on IRC in #holysmoke because I don't know
the policies on binary UUENCODES on this channel. It's more than
50K normally, so that'd be more than 65K after encoding.
Rod "... 'It's the Inhell Pentagram Processor... ding! dong-ding-dong-ding!"
Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * REALITY.SYS corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 02 Jan 97 19:56:26
EID:4d92 22229f00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cba26a
On 09-09-96 at 20:09, MARTIN GOLDBERG wrote to KEN WIENS:
MG> MG>>Then take your god out and execute him. Many pregnancies
MG> MG>>end in spontaneous abortion without human intervention.
MG> KW> And those abortions are not what is in view here. What
MG> KW> is in view here are deliberate abortions of a perfectly
MG> KW> healthy unborn child.
MG> So you are infavor of aborting a fetus that is known to be
MG> seriously defective?
Of course he is, Martin. You see, if a hideously grotesquely
deformed foetus is brought to term, you have a very dangerous and
anti-God situation.
And the longer the child survives, and the more people who come
into contact with such child, the greater this risk grows.
... You see, such a child is living proof that God is a sick,
cruel, and sadistic being. Why would he suffer such a child to
live? And as each person who ever thinks about the purpose of
such a disability as a "gift from God", and their observation of
the ever so plastic-smile spindoctoring of religious types, the
overwhelming majority lose faith in such a sick and twisted deity
structure quickly, and with passion to tell others.
No, we can't allow anything contradictory to that wonderful lie
that's told to people by men of religion -- that babies are
wonderful gifts from God. Men of religion don't like babies who
don't come out totally perfect, as the first question asked is:
"Why did God do this to my child?"
Religion advocates the abortion of such deformed foetuses because
it keeps the masses ignorant of such questions as: "Why does God
torture and maim innocent and sinless newborns?"
Such a question arising from all who know even one person born
with such a defect could drive hundreds away from religion. And
with the already declining rate of Christian religion and the
coffers of the church running thin...
Rod "... well, it's all economic! How'd they be able to afford
the four houses and 18 cars?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: The other flip-flop
|Date: 02 Jan 97 20:09:28
EID:e894 2222a120
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cba578
On 10-09-96 at 11:24, J.J. HITT wrote to QUENTIN FAI:
JH> On Sep 10 01:35 96, Quentin Fai of 1:358/1 wrote:
JH> KS>>> Yow. I just thought of something - they never found
JH> KS>>> Koresh's body, did they?
JH> JH>> He's buried in an unmarked grave somewhere in Waco.
JH> QF> Now, *there*'s a grave I'd like to piss on!!!!!
JH> That may be possible. I'm sure the location is a loosely kept secret
JH> and someone have have even placed a marker on it by now.
JH> I'm waiting for them to build a theme park on the Mount Carmel site.
Fire World...!
See death-defying tricks of flames while TANKS ram your home!
Stockpile weapons and play russian roulette flamb'e!
Burn in lust for your own children!
Join in our charbroiled dinner with your newly found "bretheren"!
It's all here at Fire World!
Don't be the last human charred remain on Earth to miss it!
Rod "...and the Koreshy Kookies won't last long. They're going
like *hot* cakes!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Don't steal. The government hates competition!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Religious comments
|Date: 02 Jan 97 20:12:30
EID:fa6e 2222a180
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cba62e
On 09-09-96 at 20:59, KEN WIENS wrote to DAVID WORRELL:
KW> DW>Where did your God come from?
KW> According to the Bible He never had a beginning. This is
KW> certainly easier for me to believe than to believe
KW> something orderly or even something at all came out of
KW> nothing ex nihilo.
It all came "out of nothing ex nihilo"?
How *erudite*! :) Do you know what 'ex nihilo' means?
Rod "...Join Jim in the English Dunces' Corner" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Yogi Bear was a nudist buddhist.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: The ICR: Thy Twisted Tri
|Date: 02 Jan 97 20:17:32
EID:1eee 2222a220
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cba75c
On 09-09-96 at 07:39, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to JOHN MUSSELWHITE:
ML> JM> Like Josh McDowell? Duane Gish? Clifford Burdick? Henry Morris?
ML> JM> All proven liars, Doug. If you've bought into that trash and
ML> JM> repeat it you're no better than they are.
ML> And let us not, in our quest for perfection, be remiss and miss
ML> naming the other triad of the twisted ICR triumvirate: Steve
ML> "coal is really recent" Austin, Wendell "I didn't write the
ML> Arkansas Balanced Treaatment Bill, it was someone else with
ML> my name" Bird, and Oz's own resident most appropriately named
ML> fundroid (and probably Laur Appletoon's best buddy) Ken "The ICR
ML> was raised up to proclaim the message of Christ as Creator and
ML> Savior to a pagan world" Ham.
ML> How could we wver forget these sadsacks, flubadubs and third rate
ML> hobbyists?
How about cartoonist-turned-expert-in-physics Barry Setterfield
(from Oz) who redefined the speed of light :)
Rod "...making the energy of the big *bang*ing in the Garden of
Eden equal to a few large nuclear weapons. Talk about *big
bang!*" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * He's your God, they're your rules, YOU burn in hell!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Answer the question!
|Date: 02 Jan 97 20:24:34
EID:5197 2222a300
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cba902
On 14-09-96 at 17:10, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
LA> AS> and is it [Creation Ex Nihilo] a reputable scientific journal?
LA> In Creation Science circles it is one of the best!
Are you admitting that creationism is not part of the sciences now?
Is it a reputable scientific journal?
Rod "...answer the question, don't do the fundie two-step" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Dogs crawl under gates. Software crawls under Windows.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|Date: 02 Jan 97 23:21:36
EID:d2ae 2222baa0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cbd280
On 12-09-96 at 08:21, JIM STAAL wrote to ROB BURCHAM:
JS> He does have his plan. God is a god of order.
Would he like super-sized fries with that order?
Rod "...and is it eat-here, or take away?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Nuke a godless homeless commie gay baby whale for Christ!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|Date: 02 Jan 97 23:47:38
EID:ee70 2222bde0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cbd89a
On 13-09-96 at 16:53, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ROB BURCHAM:
RS> JS> He does have his plan. God is a god of order.
RS> I'll have a Wendy's Triple with cheese, a large order of
RS> McDonald Fries, and a large Coke, no ice.
RS> when ordering . . . ?>
No, that's only if you want a Jumbo Jack and Curly Fries.
Rod "... what worries me is fries made out of Larry and Moe!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * REALITY.SYS corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Bible Archaeology
|Date: 02 Jan 97 23:55:40
EID:fb37 2222bee0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cbda7c
On 11-09-96 at 14:30, RICHARD SMITH wrote to KEN WIENS:
RS> KW>Lawyers in their right minds
RS> GT>Ken, that's an oxymoron.
RS> KW>I know it is to heathens.
RS> What a bigotted, brainless, buttfuck you are.
Oi!... :) It's insulting to decent, respectable,
community-minded gay people to be associated with Weinser!
Please, next time, could you consider the insult:
'What a bigoted, snivelling, dog dropping you are, Ken!'
Oh, no, strike that. Decent-minded and respectable dog excretia
don't want to be associated with Weeener either!
Rod "... is there anything that is lower than Weins, so that it's
not insulted by having Weins among its leagues?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * He's your God, they're your rules, YOU burn in hell!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: christolaters
|Date: 03 Jan 97 00:15:42
EID:e66a 222301e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cbdf2e
On 11-09-96 at 02:04, DAVID WORRELL wrote to ALL:
DW> For the last four weeks, a different variety
DW> of dipshit christian has come to my door Saturday
DW> afternoon. It is becoming rather annoying.
DW> I am considering building a cross in my backyard. When the knuckledraggers
DW> show up, I will tell them that I will listen to their
DW> nonsense if they will only hang on the cross for four (just
DW> four) hours.
It reminds me of how I get rid of the door-to-door types. At my
old place, I was able to spy them coming up the road.
It was always the Jay-Dubs or the Mor(m)ons. Nice young men --
but the worst thing about them was that I view them as
invasionary missionaries into this nation.
... you know, sovereign patriotism. Something Staal claims to have...
But getting back to the point. I always invite them in, after
running quickly to get some *goodies* to have some fun with.
I invite them in and sit them down on the sofa, with me
furtherest away from the door, but in easy reach of any of the
surprise objects I got before I opened the door -- obscured by
the sofa's placement in the lounge room.
I promise them that I will answer any question of theirs, but
they must promise to answer a question of mine.
It normally starts out something like this:
Them: "Thank you for inviting us in today..."
Me: "You're always welcome. As long as we have turn
about at asking questions of each other..."
Them: "Yes, that's ok. We like enquiring minds."
Me: "Thank you. May I start by asking you a question
first?"
Them: "Yes."
Me: "What is your idea of Heaven, if it could exist
in an Earthly context...?"
They then answer, usually about how the world would be at peace,
and there would be nothing at all negative, and it'd all be one
happy planet...
The conversation continues:
Them: "Have you heard about God?"
Me: "Yes, but not from . Now, I've got
a question for you. Does follow
some sexual construct involving an Alpha Male?"
Them: [shocked and redirecting the question] "We only
believe that sex is valid within the rules layed
down in the bible. May we ask you what you are
doing to spread the word of the Lord?"
Me: "Yes, actually! I'm helping hopefully to bring about
God's name being spoken on the lips of men
everywhere. Do you want to hear more about how
I want men to proclaim the name of the Lord?"
Them: "Yes"
Me: "I want to make them scream it out, in a passion for
the Lord! Do you believe that's a good thing?"
Them: "Yes, we do!"
It is normally at this point that reaching down, and grabbing the
9 inch jelly-textured transparent pink dildo that was hidden
beside the couch.
The only reaction is either a stare and jaw-drop, or a scream!
Or both. Talk about fake-penis envy!
Rod "... come back, Mormon-heads! I want to hug you and squeeze
you and put you in cages!" Elmira Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Close your mind quick! Something blasphemous may get in!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Goodbye /3
|Date: 03 Jan 97 17:59:44
EID:ada8 22238f60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccd890
On 11-09-96 at 08:07, MARILYN BURGE wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
MB> No, Al, locking up people who want to end it is NOT a "good thing."
MB> It is a clear-cut case of the State leading an individual's life
MB> for them, and the State was not granted the power to do that by
MB> the Constitution.
I think Al needs to watch that episode of Voyager called "Death
Wish" again :)
Rod "... because it'll make him understand." Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Confused? Call Lt. Cmdr. Troi at 1-800-NCC-1701
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Goodbye /3
|Date: 03 Jan 97 18:05:46
EID:dfda 222390a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccd9fa
On 11-09-96 at 00:04, AL SCHROEDER wrote to DAVE HAMILTON:
AS> Would you not agree that oftentimes suicide brings that sort of sadness
to
AS> the family?
My sexuality doesn't please some members of my family. Should I
live a lie and be miserable myself, or should they deal with it?
Please extrapolate answer for someone who wishes to suicide/be
euthanised.
Rod "...I'm sorry I had to be so brusque, but you suck!" Swift :(
* SLMR 2.1 * Close your mind quick! Something blasphemous may get in!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Kashif Shaikh
|Sub: Islam: The True Religion
|Date: 03 Jan 97 19:46:48
EID:7606 22239dc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccf1a8
On 14-09-96 at 01:19, KASHIF SHAIKH wrote to ALL:
KS> You are invited to have no other god except:
KS> ****************************THE ONE TRUE GOD********************************
KS> who has worshipped by Abraham, Moses, and Jesus
KS> For more info call (416) 861-9244
KS> Islamic Information & Da'wah Centre International
Do they sell pork snacks there?
Rod "... because I got a hankerin' for bacon!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Don't just do something!!! Stand there!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Jan 97 20:05:50
EID:ea90 2223a0a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccf61e
On 10-09-96 at 11:47, GEORGE MOOTH wrote to ALL:
GM> COUNTERFEIT HAPPINESS
... What a pleasant surprise. Mooth discovered that Jesus is a
fraud!
GM> Troubles can't be packed away and magically forgotten.
Neither can the reality of science.
GM> JOY IS THE BYPRODUCT
GM> OF TRUSTING GOD.
I thought cascade synaptic failure was.
Rod "...brainless minions for Jesus suck!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Don't just do something!!! Stand there!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Jan 97 20:06:52
EID:ea90 2223a0c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccf65c
On 31-08-96 at 14:11, GEORGE MOOTH wrote to ALL:
GM> HE ACCEPTS IT
Only after bending over...
Rod "...and he's *such* a good lover" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Individualists unite!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Jan 97 20:08:54
EID:ea90 2223a100
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccf6d6
On 05-09-96 at 14:56, GEORGE MOOTH wrote to ALL:
GM> TO GAIN SELF-CONTROL,
GM> GIVE CHRIST CONTROL.
Normally I get a lot of mirth by telling George how silly his
little cans of spam are each day.
However, this one takes the cake. It's self-contradictory.
Especially in light of "free will".
Rod "... he either destroys the notion we have free will, or
we're all slaves to Jeezus!" Swift.
* SLMR 2.1 * I wanted to be born again but my mother said: "No!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 03 Jan 97 20:10:56
EID:ea90 2223a140
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccf750
On 08-09-96 at 11:40, GEORGE MOOTH wrote to ALL:
GM> WHERE'S THIS BUS GOING?
Isn't it sad when George takes the laptop along on his daily ride
to work!
GM> MANY PEOPLE ARE MAKING GOOD TIME,
GM> BUT THEY'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY.
Arrgh! George caught the bus *going downtown*, not to his home!
And it was ahead of schedule too!
Rod "...go figger!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Hey fundie! Why can't your mind be as open as your mouth?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Url Update
|Date: 03 Jan 97 20:17:58
EID:1208 2223a220
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccf8f6
On 12-09-96 at 14:59, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to CURTIS JOHNSON:
[A McDowell FAQ URL on the net...]
KS> Here's one I just now found:
KS> http://freethought.tamu.edu/library/modern/index.html#mcdowell
KS> you should be able to bounce around there and find lots of stuff
KS> on this.
The freethought archives have been moved from Texas A&M to
www.infidels.org
The site remains the same, and it will redirect you. However, if
you have any bookmarks to pages inside the freethought archive, I
suggest you pull them up and rebookmark the new pages at the
redirected site.
Rod "...your friendly neighbourhood web assistant :)" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Clean mind, clean body. Take your pick.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Your weak excuses.
|Date: 03 Jan 97 20:42:00
EID:2628 2223a540
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ccfe98
On 12-09-96 at 20:46, MARTIN GOLDBERG wrote to KEN WIENS:
MG> KW> I believe I read that one major reason the theory of
MG> KW> Puncuated Equilibrium was formulated was to account
MG> KW> for the lack of intermediate links. Is this the case?
MG> Asking Appleton about Evolution is like asking a horse
MG> about Quantum Mechanics.
A horse is a horse, of course of course, ... :)
Rod "...Hello, Laurie's Mr Ed!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Confused? Call Lt. Cmdr. Troi at 1-800-NCC-1701
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Smithsonian (humor)
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:03:02
EID:4bde 2223a860
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd0386
On 05-09-96 at 12:18, DAN CEPPA wrote to ALL:
DC> Paleoanthropology Division
DC> Smithsonian Institute
DC> 207 Pennsylvania Avenue
DC> Washington, DC 20078
DC> Dear Sir:
[snippety]
DC> 3. The dentition pattern evident on the "skull" is more consistent
DC> with the common domesticated dog than it is with the "ravenous
DC> man-eating Pliocene clams" you speculate roamed the wetlands
DC> during that time.
Ah, they were a scientologist! :) Don't the scienos claim man
descended from clams?
Rod "...poor little clams, *snap snap snap*" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * DEVICE=EXXON.SYS may mess up your environment!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ACLU makes Laurie spin!
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:21:04
EID:15d0 2223aaa0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd07c0
On 13-09-96 at 19:46, KAREN DAVIS wrote to LAURIE APPLETON:
KD> LA> The Creation position rests on the facts that we DO see
KD> LA> rather than, as in the case of evolutionists, the facts that
KD> LA> are NOT see and which they hope they MIGHT find in the
KD> LA> future!
KD> Creation has NO facts. N O N E.
Hey Karen! Wanna see Laurie spin?
This is taken from the ACLU's site at http://www.aclu.org/
Enjoy!
___---------------------------------------------------------------
ACLU Position Statement on "Creation-science"
For seventy-five years, the American Civil Liberties Union has
been dedicated to upholding First Amendment protections of civil
liberties. Consistent with the requirements of the Establishment
Clause, the ACLU policy on religion in public schools states that
"...any program of religious indoctrination -- direct or indirect
-- in the public schools or by use of public resources is a
violation of the constitutional principle of separation of church
and state and must be opposed...." In 1980, the Board of
Directors further clarified this policy by stating, "ACLU also
opposes the inculcation of religious doctrines even if they are
presented as alternatives to scientific theories." "Creation
science" in all its guises, for example "abrupt appearance
theory" or "intelligent design theory", is just such religious
doctrine.
Among the problems "creation-science" creates in the academic
environment is the foreclosure of scientific inquiry. The
unifying principle of "creationism" is not the law of nature, but
divinity. A divine explanation of natural data is not subject to
experiment, it cannot be proved untrue, it cannot be disputed by
any human means. Creationism necessarily rests on the
unobservable; it can exist only in the ambiance of faith. Faith
-- belief that does not rest on logic or on evidence -- has no
role in scientific inquiry.
The constitutional defect of any law or policy requiring the
teaching of creationism, or of "evidence against evolution," is
not that it requires instruction about facts which coincide with
a religious belief, but that it requires instruction in one
religious belief as the unifying explanation of facts. This
unifying concept is not a secular topic such as biology,
chemistry, art, phonics, or literature which is familiar to the
elementary and secondary school curricula. Instead, teachers are
required to identify, organize, or teach facts and inferences
supporting a specific belief - " special creation" . To require
public schools to marshal "evidences" and "inferences" in service
of one religious belief, or to impose an embargo on a scientific
theory that Fundamentalists dislike, is not to use religious
works "for the teaching of secular subjects," (Abington School
Dist. v. Schempp), but to place "the power, prestige and
financial support of government...behind a particular religious
belief" (Engel v. Vitale) The year-by-year, school-by-school, and
teacher-by-teacher decision-making on whether and how to imbue
"creationism" into the sciences and humanities promises
continuing anguish in the educational community and assures
inordinate involvement of religious groups in the affairs of
government.
In our society, government is not permitted to instruct a child
in religion, because it is not the government's job to promote a
religious form of truth. No provision of the Constitution so
firmly assures the essential freedom of the individual as does
the Establishment Clause. The provision recognizes that choices
about the ultimate meaning of life must be made in the private
recesses of the conscience and not in the earthly controversies
of political power. Were every person in this country of the same
faith, the Establishment Clause would serve as a powerful
expression that humans must decide their relationship to God, not
at the bidding of the state, but at the calling of the soul. That
we are a nation of many religions does not alter this basic
function of the Clause, it only enhances the need for vigilance
against state manipulation of belief.
Vigilance requires firm and consistent opposition to every effort
to use the nation's schools to teach any biblical text, including
Genesis, as literal truth, either directly or disguised as
"alternative" science. To reject creationism as science is to
defend the most basic principles of academic integrity and
religious liberty.
Copyright 1996, The American Civil Liberties Union
___---------------------------------------------------------------
* SLMR 2.1 * Time is an illusion of the manufacturers of space.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: 'Cargo Cult' Reply
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:25:06
EID:a9f5 2223ab20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd08b2
On 17-09-96 at 18:32, STEVE QUARRELLA wrote to DAVID RICE:
SQ> Salue, DAVID!
SQ> Jovis dies September 12 1996, Dixit DAVID RICE ad STEVE QUARRELLA:
SQ> DR> Huh?! How could you not know who Jon Frum is?!?!?!?!
SQ> Shit, I wouldn't have known who W.V. Grant was unless I had
SQ> read "The Faith Healers." That fuck just went to jail. :)
But PrimeTime Live did him in *reeeal* good :)
Rod "... Dear God, I pray that the rest of the
501-tax-exempt-types get audited, in your Name!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * The foolish and dead alone never change their opinion!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Cure 1/
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:33:08
EID:9e1c 2223ac20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd0a94
On 14-09-96 at 22:10, MARILYN BURGE wrote to KAREN DAVIS:
MB> On (09 Sep 96) Karen Davis wrote to Judith Bandsma...
MB> KD> A cure for deafness or homosexuality should be completely and
MB> KD> utterly voluntary.
MB> Homosexuality is NOT a disease or birth defect, so it does not
MB> require a cure. I suspect that most homosexuals don't really
MB> desire any sort of change in their status, other than a change in
MB> society's attitude toward it.
I have the pleasure of supporting your view, and coughing up this
textfile copy of a leaflet the APA was so happy to send me.
Their address is attached if anyone wants printed copies for
educational purposes...
It can also be found on the net in the Queer Resources
Directory's "origins" section, at http://www.qrd.org.
BTW, did I mention that Steingrobe didn't want to read this, and
claimed quite vehemently his mind was closed to further info?
Rod "...he was afraid something blasphemous might get in!" Swift :)
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Psychology and You: Answers to Your Questions About
Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality"
By: The American Psychological Association
[This pamphlet is available from APA, 750 First St NE, Washington
DC 20002-4242, phone 202-336-5700]
Q: What is sexual orientation?
A: Sexual orientation is one of the four components of sexuality
and is distinguished by an enduring emotional, romantic,
sexual or affectional attraction to individuals of a particular
gender. The three other components of sexuality are
biological sex, gender identity (the psychological sense of
being male or female) and social sex role (adherence to
cultural norms for feminine and masculine beaviour). Three
sexual orientations are commonly recognised: _homosexual_,
attraction to individuals of one's own gender; _heterosexual_,
attraction to individuals of the other gender; or _bisexual_,
attractions to members of either gender. Persons with a
homosexual orientation are sometimes referred to as _gay_
(both men and women) or _lesbian_ (women only).
Sexual orientation is different from sexual behaviour because
it refers to feelings and self-concept. Persons may or may
not express their sexual orientation in their behaviours.
Sidebar:
Homosexual orientation is not limited to a particular type of
person. Gay men and lesbians are of all ages, cultural
backgrounds, races, religions and nationalities. They work
in all occupations and live in all parts of the country.
Q: What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
A: How a particular sexual orientation develops in any individual
is not well understood by scientists. Various theories have
proposed differing sources for sexual orientation, including
genetic or inborn hormonal factors and life experiences during
early childhood. However, many scientists share the view that
sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age
through complex interactions of biological, psychological and
social factors.
Q: Is sexual orientation a choice?
A: No. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early
adolescence without any prior sexual experience. And some
people report trying very hard over many years to change
their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual with
no success. For these reasons, psychologists do not consider
sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be
voluntarily changed.
Q: Is homosexuality a mental illness or emotional problem?
A: No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health
professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness,
mental disorder or emotional problem. Much objective
scientific research over the past 35 years shows us that
homosexual orientation, in and of itself, is not associated
with emotional or social problems.
Homosexuality was thought to be a mental illness in the past
because mental health professionals and society had biased
information about homosexuality since most studies only
involved lesbians and gay men in therapy. When researchers
examined data about gay people who were not in therapy, the
idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was found to be
untrue.
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the
importance of the new research by removing the term
"homosexuality" from the official manual that lists all
mental and emotional disorders. In 1975 the American
Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting
this action. Both associations urge all mental health
professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness
that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.
Since the original declassification of homosexuality as a
mental disorder, this decision has subsequently been
reaffirmed by additional research findings and both
associations.
Q: Can lesbians and gay men be good parents?
A: Yes. Studies comparing groups of children raised by
homosexual and by heterosexual parents find no developmental
differences between the two groups of children in their
intelligence, psychological adjustment, social adjustment,
popularity with friends, developmment of social sex role
identity or development of sexual orientation.
Another stereotype about homosexuality is the mistaken
belief that gay men have more of a tendency than heterosexual
men to sexually molest children. There is no evidence
indicating that homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals
to molest children.
Sidebar:
The APA encourages all mental health professionals to work to
help persons of all sexual orientations to accept and
integrate their inner feelings and to overcome their
prejudices and false beliefs about one another.
Q: Why do some gay men and lesbians tell people about their
sexual orientation?
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Participate in Throw a Christian to the Lions Year 1997!
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Cure 2/
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:33:10
EID:6e1c 2223ac20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd0a96
>>> Continued from previous message
A: Because sharing that aspect of themselves with others is
important to their mental health. In fact, the process of
identity development for lesbians and gay men, usually called
"coming out", has been found to be strongly related to
psychological adjustment -- the more positive the gay male or
lesbian identity, the better one's mental health and the
higher one's self esteem.
Q: Why is the "coming out" process difficult for some gays and
lesbians?
A: Because of false stereotypes and unwarranted prejudice towards
them, the process of "coming out" for lesbians and gay men can
be a very challenging process which may cause emotional pain.
Lesbian and gay people often feel "different" and "alone" when
they first become aware of same-sex attractions. They may
also fear being rejected by family, friends, co-workers and
religious institutions if they do "come out".
In addition, homosexuals are frequently the targets of
discrimination and violence. This threat of violence and
discrimination is an obstacle to lesbian and gay people's
development. In a 1989 national survey, 5% of the gay men and
10% of the lesbians reported physical abuse or assault related
to being lesbian or gay in the last year; 47% reported some
form of discrimination over their lifetime. Other research
has shown similarly high rates of discrimination and violence.
Q: What can be done to help lesbians and gay men overcome
prejudice and discrimination against them?
A: The people who have the most positive attitudes toward gay men
and lesbians are those who say they know one or more gay
person well. For this reason, psychologists believe negative
attitudes toward gays as a group are prejudices that are not
grounded in actual experience with lesbians or gay men but
on stereotypes and prejudice.
Furthermore, protection against violence and discrimination
are very important, just as they are for other minority
groups. Some states include violence against an individual on
the basis of her or his sexual orientation as a "hate crime"
and eight US states have laws against discrimination on the
basis of sexual orientation.
Q: Can therapy change sexual orientation?
A: No. Even though homosexual orientation is not a mental
illness and there is no scientific reason to attempt
conversion of lesbians or gays to heterosexual orientation,
some individuals may seek to change their own sexual
orientation or that of another individual (for example,
parents seeking therapy for their child). Some therapists
who undertake this kind of therapy report that they have
changed their clients' sexual orientation (from homosexual to
heterosexual) in treatment. Close scrutiny of their reports
indicates several factors that cast doubt: many of the claims
come from organisations with an ideological perspective on
sexual orientation, rather than from mental health
researchers; the treatments and their outcomes are poorly
documented; and the length of time that clients are followed
up after the treatment is too short.
In 1990 the American Psychological Association stated that
scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy
works and that it can do more harm than good. Changing one's
sexual orientation is not simply a matter of changing one's
sexual behaviour. It would require altering one's emotional,
romantic and sexual feelings and restructuring one's
self-concept and social identity. Although some mental health
providers do attempt sexual orientation conversion, others
question the ethics of trying to alter through therapy a trait
that is not a disorder and that is extremely important to an
individual's identity.
Not all gays and lesbians who seek therapy want to change
their sexual orientation. Gays and lesbians may seek
counselling for any of the same reasons as anyone else. In
addition, they may seek psychological help to "come out" or
to deal with prejudice, discrimination and violence.
Q: Why is it important for society to be better educated about
homosexuality?
A: Educating all people about sexual orientation and
homosexuality is likely to diminish anti-gay prejudice.
Accurate information about homosexuality is especially
important to young people struggling with their own sexual
identity. Fears that access to such information will affect
one's sexual orientation are not valid.
Q: Where can I find more information about homosexuality?
A: The publications and organisations listed below can all
provide you with further information:
References:
Garnets, L.D., et al, "Issues in Psychotherapy
With Lesbians and Gay Men", _American_
_Psychologist_, Vol 46 #9, pp 964-972.
Goodchilds, J.D., _Psychological_Perspectives_
_on_Human_Diversity_In_America_, American
Psychological Association, Washington DC, 1993.
Garnets, L.D., and Kimmel, D.C., _Psychological_
_Perspectives_on_Lesbian_&_Gay_Male_Experiences_,
Columbia University Press, New York, 1993.
Gonsiorek, J.C., and Weinrich, J.D., _Homosexuality:_
_Research_Implications_For_Public_Policy_, Sage
Publications, California, 1991.
Herek, G.M., and Berrill, K.T., _Journal_of_
_Interpersonal_Violence_, Vol 5 #3.
Organisations:
National Gay and Lesbian Task Force
1734 14th Street NW
Washington DC 20009
Telephone: 1-202-332-6483
National Institute of Mental Health
5600 Fishers Lane, Room 7C02
Rockville MD 20857
Telephone: 1-301-443-4513
Parents and Friends of Lesbian and Gays
1012 14th Street NW Suite 700
Washington DC 20005
Telephone: 1-202-638-4200
Sex Information and Education Council of the United States
130 West 42nd Street, Suite 2500
New York NY 10036
Telephone: 1-212-819-9770
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Participate in Throw a Christian to the Lions Year 1997!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Cure 3/
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:33:12
EID:fe1d 2223ac20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd0a98
>>> Continued from previous message
Special Thanks:
Special thanks to the following APA members and staff whose
assistance made this brochure possible:
Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D., University of California at Davis.
Oliva M. Espin, Ph.D., San Diego State University, president
of APA division 44.
APA Committee on Lesbian and Gay Concerns.
Clinton W. Anderson, M.A., APA Office on Lesbian and Gay
Concerns.
Brochure written by Stephen J. Blommer.
Produced by the APA Office of Public Affairs.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
* SLMR 2.1 * Participate in Throw a Christian to the Lions Year 1997!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Barry Griefer
|Sub: Absolute Bigotry.
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:39:14
EID:6364 2223ace0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd0c02
On 15-09-96 at 16:04, BARRY GRIEFER wrote to LAURIE APPLETON:
BG> LA> The need for this law was clearly shown by various polls
BG> LA> that found that the public declared that they WANTED it.
BG> LA> i.e.
BG> WOW! A plebiscite for ALL laws! What a great idea! Let's do it with
BG> Perot's TV Town Halls!
BG> Now we're talking. We won't even need a Congress! Reduce the
BG> deficit, perfect personal freedom or repression; total socialism or
BG> total capitalism; perfect order or perfect anarchy.
The last time the Christians wanted what they want, and put it to
the vote, they lost -- remember Colorado Amendment 2?
Solved, by Romer v Evans, Supreme Court, 1996.
They should learn, quickly, that plebiscite will not get them
the power to override the rights of minorities :)
Rod "...but it's nice to see them waste millions of taxpayer
funds with their little homohatred campaigns" Swift :(
* SLMR 2.1 * Psychoceramics - the study of crackpots!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Claim Him, He'S Yours
|Date: 03 Jan 97 21:53:16
EID:4dfb 2223aea0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd0f4c
On 15-09-96 at 11:52, JIM STAAL wrote to MARTY LEIPZIG:
JS> JS> as most my friends did during the 'tet
JS> JS> offensive' of '69 or so. A bad time to be in Vietnam.
JS> ML> Aye, laddie. But now's a great time; what with a free market
JS> ML> economy, booming reconstruction of infrastructure and yet
JS> ML> another place on earth that knows what a xenophobic Xtian
boob
JS> ML> exists as one MISTER Staal.
JS> Nah...just another commie hell-hole.
COMMIE HELL-HOLE (n): Anywhere not like Jim Staal's warped view
of his own neighbourhood.
Rod "...is Australia one, Jim?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Only those who attempt the absurd achieve the impossible.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Christopher Foss
|Sub: Its a matter of faith
|Date: 03 Jan 97 22:13:18
EID:94d3 2223b1a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd13fe
On 09-09-96 at 23:44, CHRISTOPHER FOSS wrote to ALL:
CF> As it has appeard to me that this echo is pretty much split up between
CF> the believers and the non-believers, so I have a question for each,
CF> perhaps it will spur a debate or something.
[snippety]
CF> To the non-believers: Why is it now that you do not believe? What
CF> happened to you that made you think that God wasn't a god, but actually
CF> some figment of someones imagination? Why do you feel that God is not
CF> with you?
You make the assumption that we were once religious.
Why?
Rod "... I went to the Bryant Gumbel school of questioning!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Borg Express... Don't be assimilated without it!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ronald St-Amour
|Sub: Love
|Date: 03 Jan 97 22:18:20
EID:ea50 2223b240
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd152c
On 15-09-96 at 01:44, RONALD ST-AMOUR wrote to RONALD VASS:
RS> My motto is: "If it's in the Bible, I want it!
RS> "If it's not in the Bible, I don't want it!
Your computer is not in the bible. Please give it away.
Rod "... it will also solve us having to deal with you and making
you lose your deity -- we will make you scream, ripping it from
your soul!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Today's topic: Life is good if you're happy. Refute.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ronald St-Amour
|Sub: Love
|Date: 03 Jan 97 22:19:22
EID:ea50 2223b260
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd156a
On 15-09-96 at 01:50, RONALD ST-AMOUR wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
RS> Hi Martin: Do you read the Bible occasionally?
RS> Read GENESIS (the whole thing) and it will give you an example
RS> of how we were all created.
Actually, it's so good that it has more than one creation myth,
eh Ronald?
Rod "... or is that inconveeenient to you?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * I wanted to be born again but my mother said: "No!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: From AANews #153...
|Date: 03 Jan 97 22:53:26
EID:66b5 2223b6a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd1d66
For those of you interested in alternatives to religious-based
AA-style programs...
On 10-09-96 at 19:26, CHRISTOPHER BAKER wrote to ALL in A_THEIST:
CB> COURT AGAIN STRIKES DOWN RELIGION-BASED ''RECOVERY'' PROGRAM
[snip]
CB> Drug use, both "legal" and "illegal", is a complex phenomenon and
CB> the basis of considerable argument and disagreement for social
CB> scientists, politicians, behavioral experts and law enforcement
CB> officials. Many non-believers find the emphasis on a "higher power"
CB> and other religious trapping of AA and related programs to be
CB> invasive, insulting and unworkable. For these individuals, there are
CB> alternatives. Rational Recovery hosts a web site at
CB> http://rational.org/recovery, and publishes a "Journal of Rational
CB> Recovery." While RR says that it is "a friend of organized religion
CB> worldwide" and that its technique "dovetails with any theology or
CB> religious education program," it opposes forced participation in
CB> religion-based programs.
CB> Rational Recovery adds that "Publicly-funded agencies that require
CB> or offer only spiritual/religious programs violate Constitutional
CB> rights..." Another information source is Cliff Walker of the Center
CB> for Rational Thought, Inc. His page may be found at
CB> http://rogue.northwest.com/~crt.
Rod "...your friendly info bot!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Windows isn't crippleware. It's functionally challenged.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Another secular group...
|Date: 03 Jan 97 22:58:28
EID:ce4f 2223b740
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd1e94
As reported in AA NEWS
On 11-09-96 at 19:40, CHRISTOPHER BAKER wrote to ALL in A_THEIST:
CB> A Note To AANEWS Readers...
CB> In yesterday's dispatch, we reported on court cases in New York and
CB> Wisconsin which involved the question of prison inmates being forced
CB> to participate in religion-based "recovery" programs as a condition
CB> for parole or other benefits. We mentioned the group Rational
CB> Recovery.
CB> Our National Media Coordinator, Ron Barrier, reminds us that there
CB> is also yet another rational recovery program known as SOS, Secular
CB> Organizations for Sobriety. It is also known as "Save Our Selves,"
CB> and was begun by Mr. James Christopher. In just the past decade, SOS
CB> has expanded into every state and even has international chapters.
In
CB> 1987, SOS was ruled to be a viable alternative by California courts
to
CB> the religion-based program Alcoholics Anonymous.
CB> Mr. Christopher was a recent guest in a two part installment of the
CB> Atheist Viewpoint television show, the new cable-TV program hosted by
CB> American Atheists which now appears on nearly 40 cable systems. In
a
CB> discussion about sobriety with Mr. Barrier, SOS's Christopher stated
CB> that Alcoholics Anonymous "was simply replacing one dependency with
CB> another, and that the symptoms which produced such dependencies were
CB> ignored."
CB> Those wishing to get in touch with SOS should contact Mr. Barrier
CB> at rbarrier@atheists.org.
* SLMR 2.1 * Yahweh (n): not *my* way.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 04 Jan 97 00:09:00
EID:ea90 22240120
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd2f1c
On 11-09-96 at 11:20, GEORGE MOOTH wrote to ALL:
GM> FROM LOSS TO GAIN
I never knew God had such a personal interest in Oprah Winfrey's
waistline! :)
GM> WHEN YOU GRASP, YOU LOSE;
GM> WHEN YOU YIELD TO GOD, YOU GAIN.
So when I grasp my penis, I'm a loser, but if I let God jerk me,
I'm a winner?
Rod "...wow! A Holy Circlejerk! :)" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: peace
|Date: 04 Jan 97 00:10:02
EID:1d4e 22240140
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd2f5a
On 17-09-96 at 12:12, J.J. HITT wrote to DAN CEPPA:
JH> CC>>> fuck off
JH> JG>> what a large voluabulary you have,
JH> DW>> Fuck off, kneebiter.
JH> DC> I'd still like to know what a "voluabulary" is....
JH> It's part of a Catholic church. It's latin for "back room".
That's where they rape the little kiddies, right?
Rod "... just wondering!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Fundamentalist: (n) Ape-like creature with a Bible.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Nick Ravenwood
|Sub: Hitt is full of shit!!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 01:07:04
EID:f8e6 222408e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cd3cb8
On 20-09-96 at 07:43, NICK RAVENWOOD wrote to KATHERINE
WINTERSNIGHT:
NR> KW> What's the matter? Did the doctor 'Nick' a bit to much off when
he
NR> KW> circumcised you?
NR> No you cunt he did not!! I don't have to AMAZE anyone!!!
NR> My business here is my own, fuck the rest of you!!
What a selfish little child-mind.
You're the reason, Nick, to have ([yourage * 4]+3) trimester
abortions.
Rod "...flush you, now, eh?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Death is life's answer to the question "Why?"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Darwinism Falsified.
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:47:10
EID:0740 22244de0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdb69e
On 22-09-96 at 17:43, MARTIN GOLDBERG wrote to LAURIE APPLETON:
MG> LA> For you to claim that life has evolved, wouldn't you need
MG> LA> to present testable and demonstrable evidence? Evolutionists
MG> LA> have been unable to do that so far, so evolutionism is just
MG> LA> a speculation without foundation. Darwin himself saw this
MG> LA> when he said in his book;
MG> I evolve new life forms in my lab every day.
So you could be responsible for Appleton? :) *snicker*
Rod "...nah, take that back... It was your evil twin Skippy!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Famous graffitti: I used to be indecisive; am I sure?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Failure & Frustratio
|Date: 04 Jan 97 09:50:12
EID:90bd 22244e40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdb754
On 22-09-96 at 07:03, AL SCHROEDER wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
AS> AS> If he says teacher, I may have to send a hitman to Australia.
AS> KS> A frightening possibility. The teacher part, that is...
AS> Isn't it though?
I can attempt to find his occupation, kids. I'll get back to you
ASAP :)
Rod "...your friendly journalist-type" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Time is an illusion of the manufacturers of space.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Hitt is full of shit!!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 10:28:14
EID:0fc7 22245380
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdc03e
On 21-09-96 at 21:14, DAN CEPPA wrote to NICK RAVENWOOD:
DC> NR> Maliethorn
DC> You Maladjusted Misanthropic Malformed Afterbirth of a Rabid Muskrat
But, but, but....
...but how do you *really* feel, God Dan?
Rod "...no comment necessary" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Christ died for our sins, so let's not disappoint him.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Your Legal Problems
|Date: 04 Jan 97 11:22:16
EID:482d 22245ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdcce8
On 24-09-96 at 08:38, DAVID RICE wrote to JOHN MUSSELWHITE:
DR> The US Supreme Court has often made shitty decisions.
DR> Being the highest court in the land does not exempt
DR> it from making bad judgements.
Oh, agreed. Bowers v Hardwick was a very poor decision. Expect
that one to be overturned very very very soon though :)
DR> JM> Pretty brave talk from an Australian without a
DR> JM> clue about what the United States is all about.
DR> JM> As a Canadian I can't comment on the US Supreme
DR> JM> court, but perhaps an American will have a
DR> JM> response for you.
DR> Just say "Clarence Thomas" and run.
Some days, I wonder if dear ol' Clarence sits on Scalia's knee
and Scalia's hand is, well, ummm, manipulating the poor dummy. :)
DR> USSC Justice Scalia has often spewed shit and religious
DR> rhetoric.
Amen! Did you read his dissenting opinion in, say, Evans v
Romer? He's a spiteful little child! :)
The good thing about the US Supremes are that they are balanced
-- there is a centrist balance of power in my opinion.
Rod "...but Scalia! That's what you get from conservative
appointees, I suppose." Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Rotisserie: A ferris wheel for chickens!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:00:18
EID:ea90 22246000
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdd5d2
On 22-09-96 at 11:40, GEORGE MOOTH wrote to ALL:
GM> HE PAID THE TOLL
GM> OUR SALVATION IS FREE
GM> BECAUSE CHRIST PAID AN ENORMOUS PRICE.
How many times must I tell Jesus... Don't use the Sam Houston
Tollway!
Rod "...*grin*" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Jesus Christ Super Fraud. The Musical!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: translations
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:08:20
EID:749a 22246100
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdd7b4
On 23-09-96 at 17:07, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to DAN CEPPA:
ML> DC> To that a beer, an the particular libation of you choice.
ML> A Foster's or six, if you please.
That is *it*, Marty. Next time I'm in Houston, you can try
Redback beer. Much better than that Fosters shit! :)
Rod "... ok?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Land rights for gay whales!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: word replace
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:11:22
EID:600b 22246160
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdd86a
On 25-09-96 at 03:14, SEAN MCCULLOUGH wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
SM> > EM>> Benny Hinn: False Christian Scum.
SM> > EM>> Ralph Reed: Real Christian Scum.
SM> > EM>> Jesse Helms: False Christian, Real Scum.
SM> > KS> Pat Robertson: Just plain ole regular Scum.
SM> > Tammy Faye Bakker Scummette
SM> Will Perkins Old Rotten Scum
SM> Kevin Tebedo Scum Fucking City
SM> James Dobson Scum Piled Higher And Deeper
You know, Lon S Mabon needs to be added to that list :)
Sean, those last three deserve a good mention, due to their
involvement with that inherently hateful Colorado Constitutional
Amendment 2 ballot :)
Are they still whining about the Supreme Court loss? Has Perkins
gone back to selling cars?
Rod "... we don't trust used-car-salesmen in real life, so why do
we trust them in homophobic political movements...?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Betazoids FYJE not ROFL. [Feel your joke empathically.]
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Matter of faith 3of3
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:19:24
EID:9182 22246260
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdda4c
On 27-09-96 at 05:03, AL SCHROEDER wrote to KEVIN CLAPP:
AS> Let me tell you a brief story of a friend I know, who is now WIccan..
AS> He was brought up in a very Fundamentalist church, and was a musician.
AS> Worked with the warm-up groups for people like Amy Grant, Michael English,
AS> that crowd. Very, very strong, fundamentalist Christian.
AS> Unfortunately he realized he was gay.
AS> He went through a couple of things. He literally had some friends
try to
AS> "beat the devil of homosexuality" out of him. (With his consent I might
AS> add. Sad.) He later went to his minister---who didn't know he was gay,
and
AS> asked, "Would God rather a man be dead, or gay?"
AS> And the minister (and I use the word advisedly) said, "dead."
AS> My friend spent a long, lonely night that night, wrestling with suicide,
AS> and coming to the (thankfully!) correct conclusion that a dead man
cannot
AS> do God ANY good.
AS> He left Christianity. He looked around at different faiths, and
AS> eventually settled on Wicca.
AS> Now, bear in mind, that I AM a Christian, and feel that eventually
the
AS> Judeo-Christian God will judge everyone.
AS> Well, I would MUCH rather be in my friend's shoes, when and if that
AS> happens, than in that minister's. I think he did a damnable thing,
by any
AS> standard.
Exposing such minister is the best thing in the public interest.
How many more gay people have they hurt/contributed to the
suicide of/beaten/killed?
Rod "...justice should be public, not blind" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Martyrdom: The only way someone becomes famous - Shaw.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Baby In Critical Conditi
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:33:26
EID:b6fc 22246420
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cddd96
On 27-09-96 at 05:17, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
JB> -=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Ronald Vass <=-
JB> AS> I NEVER said suffering makes someone a better person. I NEVER
JB> Oh? You never said that Gwenny was the 'delightful' person we know today
JB> due in large part to what she survived as a child? You may not have
used
JB> the exact word 'better' but it sure as hell came down to the same thing.
And remember, he inferred that it'd be better for David Rice to
suffer and live, than to be able to die. Oh, and that he has no
right to self-determination or decision!
That *HE*, Al Schroeder, had a greater right than his own God to
interfere in free will!
How noble. :(
Rod "...Now I know why Al is part of the flamebait on a website" Swift :(
* SLMR 2.1 * And God said: E = +mv} - Ze}/r ...and there *was* light!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Nick Ravenwood
|Sub: Goodbye
|Date: 04 Jan 97 12:43:28
EID:c582 22246560
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cddff0
On 27-09-96 at 17:51, NICK RAVENWOOD wrote to ALL:
NR> Something terrible happened to me today...actually, it indirectely happened
NR> to me, and I'm just suffering from it. It's kind of
NR> personal, but since I don't have any clue to who you people
NR> are, it doesn't matter. My girlfriend, now ex-girlfriend
NR> had a miscarriage....the emotions I feel are ripping me to
NR> pieces. I never thought this sort of thing would ever
NR> happen to me or evoke these feelings. I can't del with
NR> this. I think this will be my last evening on this planet
NR> since I have just taken a large dose of several
NR> medications. My hearing is getting strange. b
NR> Malithorn
How tragic. You know, if I weren't such a skeptic, I'd probably
not wonder why the drugs took so long to kick in.
A suicide note, and time to dial in and do a fido mail upload!
Rod "...this is better than a faked orgasm" Swift...
* SLMR 2.1 * 1-900-666-0666: Live beasts, one-on-one-pacts, call now!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Masturbation
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:00:32
EID:0ef1 22246800
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cde3f0
On 27-09-96 at 02:01, AL SCHROEDER wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
AS> KS> I finally got an IRC client, but haven't really used it yet...
AS> KS> how do I locate the one you all use?
AS> The best program I found for it is called mIRC, which is a Windows-based
AS> program.
Bah Humbug!
The best program for IRC is ircII, and has been ported from Unix
for you windows lusers :)
Rod "... unix forever!" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Why fantasize when there are hamsters and duct tape?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: word replace
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:20:34
EID:bf7d 22246a80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cde8a2
On 26-09-96 at 18:57, JIM STAAL wrote to SEAN MCCULLOUGH:
JS> SM> Kindly please show us a reliable way for non-believers to contact
this
JS> SM> "Holy Spirit".
JS> There is no way for non-believers to 'contact' God in any way:
Who'd've thought God used Southwestern Bell! :)
Rod "...but does he use GTE or AT&T or some other LD carrier?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Dance is thought mad by those who can't hear the music.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: baptized.drowned
|Date: 04 Jan 97 13:36:36
EID:e251 22246c80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdec64
On 29-09-96 at 21:15, ROB BURCHAM wrote to STEVE WINTER:
RB> SW> Then it was the will of god. Too bad that this child was baptized
in
RB> SW> a false christian church and will go to hell. It is also better
to die
RB> SW> being baptized than at the hands of an abortion butcher.
RB> Are you for real? You seem to be cut from the same
RB> loving Christian cloth as that paragon of compassion,
RB> Fred Phelps.
You know, it'd be fun to get Freddy and clan in here. But if you
want to flame the Phelpses directly, email:
phelpsbe@acc.wuacc.edu
This is the email account of Benji Felch, whose grandpappy is
Fred Felch Senior :)
I invited him to my gay wedding. I'm wondering if they'll drive
from Topeka to Dallas to attend.
Rod "...I bet they give a few toasters as presents!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * And God said: E = +mv} - Ze}/r ...and there *was* light!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Fundies and gay kids!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 14:12:42
EID:b8b0 22247180
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cdf4da
On 30-09-96 at 16:50, SEAN MCCULLOUGH wrote to DON MARTIN:
SM> > I just heard from a gay friend in Lynchburg that a son of Jerry
SM> > Falwell is HIV+ and is coming out. I find Jerry such a loathesome
SM> > pile of pig turds that I could not have imagined feeling sorry for
SM> > him before this.
SM> I still don't feel sorry for him at all.
SM> That poor bastard SON of his, on the other hand....... !!!!!!!
SM> If I were in his position, I'd have shot myself ages ago.
The sad thing is that this follows the trend that the most
homophobic of the religious right are the ones that hate their
own children:
Examples: Beverly LaHaye (Concerned Women of America)
Joseph Nicolosi (Founder of NARTH, Psychology Joke)
Fred Phelps (Topeka Fundie)
Paul Cameron (Deregistered Psychologist)
I'm sure there are more. A pattern IS emerging.
Rod "...isn't it ironic?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Person+delusion=psychosis. People+delusion=religion.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Wiens is a sick moron!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 16:34:44
EID:bba8 22248440
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ce1624
On 02-10-96 at 00:23, KEN WIENS wrote to JOHN PREWETT:
KW> JP>You'd really be in favor of trying and executing
KW> JP>a twelve year old rape victim who requested
KW> JP>and got an abortion ?
KW> Yes. Because she willingly saw to it that her
KW> unborn child was murdered. Absolutely.
KW> JP>And the doctor and nurse ?
KW> Accessories to murder.
KW> JP>[and the parents if they facilitated the abortion ?].
KW> Accessories to murder.
Ken Wiens, I hereby declare you to be a sick and inhumane piece
of sub-human scum. What a sick and twisted individual you are.
All those in favour of a [Ken'sAge*4]+3 trimester abortion,
please speak now!
Rod "...flush goes the foetus, flush flush flush!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Smoke me a kipper skipper, I'll be back for breakfast!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Occam
|Date: 04 Jan 97 16:37:46
EID:eaaf 222484a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ce16da
On 30-09-96 at 23:29, ROBERT CURRY wrote to CURTIS JOHNSON:
RC> MM> exist outside the mind - which led to philosophic skepticism,
RC> MM> which in turn provided an intellectual preparation for the
RC> MM> Reformation.
RC> CJ> No doubt Ken Wiens would call him a logical positivist.
RC> ROFL!
RC> For this, you win a coupon book redeemable at:
RC> John Brawley's Nonlocal House of Cheese
Do you get vouchers for pre-packaged and wrapped gift-whine?
Rod
* SLMR 2.1 * Know God, know problems. No God, no problems!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Double Standard Ken!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 16:44:48
EID:c1c7 22248580
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ce1880
On 02-10-96 at 09:08, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to ANDREW MASTEN:
ML> AM> For man, the undisputed champion of the title survival of the
ML> AM> fittest,
ML> Ebola M., AIDS and the like debate your assessment.
Hey Marty:
You know, I was just thinking about HIV and Kwistians.
The good thing about HIV is that now that we're into our first
generation with this disease, the only people who are susceptible
to infection sexually are going to be ignorant fucks like our
fundies on this echo.
And, if I can be so bold -- Ken claim that if someone gets an
abortion, then that person and everyone who could have stopped
her is either a murderer or accessory...
... do you think he'd apply the same standards to each and every
Christian who stands up for denying disease-control information
to the public? Are they murderers by denying the information
that can save the tens of thousands of people who will be diagnosed
with HIV in the US in each of the coming years?
Maybe we should ask Ken:
Are the people who don't provide all the information about HIV
transmission and protection from such infection murderers too,
Ken?
What do you think, Marty? Worth asking him about his double
standard on abortion and HIV-education?
Rod "... It should get an amusing response out of the fundies :)"
Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * When talking nonsense try not to be serious.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Praise Jesus!
|Date: 04 Jan 97 16:50:50
EID:85f9 22248640
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ce19ea
On 01-10-96 at 05:42, ANDREW MASTEN wrote to DAVE HAMILTON:
AM> AM> My daughter has a transposed gene.. as a result she was born
with a
AM> AM> critical heart condition known as tetralogy of fellot ( a hole
in
AM> AM> her heart and other pathology). She is missing a kidney. She
is
AM> AM> profoundly deaf. She had her first surgery at 4 days old. She
had
AM> AM> open heart surgery at 1 1/2 years old. Twice her heart stopped
AM> AM> requiring resusitation. She now wears a pacemaker. [...]
Praise Jesus for loving birth defects.
Have you forgiven your God for the cruel and sick and twisted and
sadistic and barbarous thing he has done to your child, Andrew?
Why? Why does that sick fuck deserve your loyalty?
AM> For one, I continued to believe in God, even when my daughters condition
AM> at times got worse.
Well, aren't you a deluded fuck. Your deity screws up your kid,
and then you pray to Him for some miracle cure?
You're an unfit parent!
AM> Trusting in God's word is not for the faint of heart.
No. It's for morons like you who still trust an all-powerful
deity who could have stopped your child's birth defects.
You deluded fool. I have pity for you. What happens the day
your child asks -- Why did God punish me? Why did God make me
like this?
It is then that your will realise that your life has been one big
delusion.
Rod "... Praise Jesus for abortions!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Hey you! Are you Mr Dodo?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A Serious Question
|Date: 04 Jan 97 16:52:52
EID:bc3e 22248680
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ce1a64
On 30-09-96 at 02:01, AL SCHROEDER wrote to ANDREW MASTEN:
AS> AM> My wife and I have steadfastly prayed and believed in a complete
AS> AM> healing for my daughter. Has it happened all at once? No. Does
she
AS> AM> have a long way to go? Yes. I believe my daughters ears will be
AS> AM> opened and she will recieve a supernatural re-creative healing.
When?
AS> AM> Where? How? I don't know. I believe God is more concerned with
making
AS> AM> disciples then instantly fulfilling requests.
AS> AM> Why not give God a chance and stay commited?
AS> I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's various afflictions
I'm not. I chalk it up as another sadistic act by the childish
Christian God, who sends random misery to his creation, and calls
it Good.
What a spoiled and mean deity! Why do you still believe in him,
Al, after all his barbarism and torture?
Why does God torture his creation, Al?
Rod "... I want to know why he's so SICK!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Fundamentalism: Fund=give $$$. Amentalism=without brain.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shall Rece
|Date: 04 Jan 97 16:56:54
EID:fa1e 22248700
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32ce1b56
On 30-09-96 at 04:03, AL SCHROEDER wrote to DAN CEPPA:
AS> We keep on talking of God as if He were within Time, that at one point
in
AS> the beginning of Time, God looked out and FOREKNEW how the whole thing
AS> would turn out, and deliberately set it so that it would turn out that
AS> way.
AS> I.E., that He sat down, in 12 billion BC or so, and said, well, at
1030
AS> in the morning on 33 AD, Judas Iscariot will betray Jesus, so I need
to
AS> set up events just SO so that will happen....
AS> I don't think it's that way at all.
Why not? Your god's a damn VORLON!
Rod "...No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom
tomorrow" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Beam me up Scotty. There's no intelligent life here!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Baby in critical conditi
|Date: 05 Jan 97 09:46:00
EID:f671 22254dc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf07d8
On 02-10-96 at 07:40, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to ROB BURCHAM:
ML> ML> She did die.
ML> ML>
ML> ML> As a direct result of her "dipping".
ML> RB> A real life is extinguished in the act of securing an
ML> RB> imaginary one. The parents should plead insanity. The
ML> RB> insanity called religion.
ML> And the church elders should be charged with accessory to murder.
I agree! Remember, our good "True Christian" Ken Wiens says
that anyone connected with abortion -- the mother, the medical
practitioners, and any person who counselled -- are all either
murderers or accessories to murder.
Rod "... of course, I'm waiting for his backflip, or
multiple-fly-bys on this one" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Smoke me a kipper skipper, I'll be back for breakfast!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baby In Critical Conditi
|Date: 05 Jan 97 09:54:02
EID:83d1 22254ec0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf09ba
On 02-10-96 at 00:04, AL SCHROEDER wrote to RONALD VASS:
AS> My current church believes in adult baptism, when one is old enough
to
AS> know what is going on.
AS> My past church believed in infant baptism, but it consisted of a few
AS> drops sprinkled on the head, no more.
AS> In neither one would such an atrocity take place, and I hope they
are
AS> prosecuted for criminal stupidity and manslaughter.
Manslaughter? I'd push for murder. There *was* knowledge that
the act could be dangerous, especially full immersion. One
member of the clergy had doubts and refused to do the act.
Nah... Charge them with murder. Fry the bastards. Make sure it
never happens again.
AS> I think He did save the kid...eternally.
Yeah, well, unproven conjecture.
AS> I think He cried, when it happened. I think He very much restrained
AS> Himself to keep from wiping us ALL out, as a bad joke, and a bad
AS> mistake. And it probably made Him all the more furious that it was
done
AS> in His name.
One cannot know the mind of God. Don't you read your book.
How dare you cheapen this murder by claiming that in the long-run
the kid's going to be "saved by Jah-eez-us".
No doubt the defense counsel for the murderous parents will use
the same defense -- completely dodging the question of liability
in this case.
That's if it ever gets to a trial at all.
AS> He is not impotent, but long suffering and patient.
So Jesus will be ejaculating soon? :)
[You see, I do have a sense of humour.]
Rod "...or did you mean omnipotent?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Why fantasize when there are hamsters and duct tape?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Satan
|Sub: baptized.drowned
|Date: 05 Jan 97 09:55:04
EID:4ef6 22254ee0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf09f8
On 01-10-96 at 11:19, SATAN wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
SA> JP> She died Thursday. Authorities were waiting for autopsy
SA> JP> results from the District of Columbia Medical Examiner's
SA> JP> Office on the cause of death. Police spokesman Anthony Leary
SA> JP> said it was being investigated by the city's homicide
SA> JP> division.
SA> MG> God gives us the finger again.
SA> Risking a child's life over a superstition has got to be about twice
SA> as sad as abortion.
But more importantly, it's eminently more acceptable to the
Kwistians.
Rod "...how typical!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Diplomacy: The patriotic art of lying for one's country.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Brawley's Bait Shop
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:24:06
EID:959b 22255300
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf10c6
On 03-10-96 at 04:56, DAVID WORRELL wrote to SHELBY SHERMAN:
DW> I used to have some small amount of respect for John. Hell, we all knew
he
DW> was a fucking lunatic, but he was a *harmless* lunatic. He
DW> sat over in his little quantum corner and rarely bothered
DW> anybody (although I did, for a time, copy JJ's move of
DW> killing any message that included the word "quantum"). Now
DW> he's moved down the scale to "pathetic harmless lunatic."
Given the above, wouldn't it be nifty to have a tagline like the
one I've offered below?
DW> ---
DW> * Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
John Brawley's Quantum BSE-infected Butcher Shop :)
Rod "...because Cruetzfeld-Jakobs Disease is fun!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Don't just do something!!! Stand there!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:12:08
EID:41a7 22255180
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf0df8
On 30-09-96 at 15:21, KENNETH MCABEE wrote to SALLY SPRINGETT:
KM> Sunday September 29 1996 13:54, Sally Springett mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> KS>> Fine. As an employer I intend to find out which of my
KM> KS>> employees are fundys and fire their sorry asses.
KM> KM>> And you could be brought up on discrimination charges.
KM> KS>> Oh? Under what statute, Mr. Barrister?
KM> KM>> Ever hear of Equal Opportinity?
KM> SS> I have. What does it have to do with the above?
KM> Sally,
KM> Doesn't it say something equal opportinity regardless
KM> of race, creed or religion?
KM> Kenneth Mcabee
But he's going to fire them for being straight, Ken!
Rod "...remember? Sexual orientation discrimination is
*allowable*" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Without fools there would be no wisdom.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Hitt is full of shit!!
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:20:10
EID:e929 22255280
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf0fda
On 01-10-96 at 08:01, AL SCHROEDER wrote to DAN CEPPA:
AS> DC> Care to pull the plunger on it? If not, do bring out the
AS> DC> Warthogs and do the critter in before it multiplies, though I
AS> DC> dout it can add and subtract.
AS> According to a recent post he's committing suicide. Forgive my unworthy
AS> suspicions, and I don't want to seem callous---but in HIS case I doubt
AS> that ANYBODY needs to nofify HIS family, for any reason. At least he
AS> didn't say his BBS was going down.
So now, apparently, Al has some form of judgement on the value of
the life that intends to be terminated.
*boggle*
Rod "Can anyone else work this suicide-broacasting-system that Al
has?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Save the whales. Collect the whole set!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: I Knew That!
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:28:12
EID:34d8 22255380
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf11bc
On 30-09-96 at 23:29, ROBERT CURRY wrote to MICHAEL HARDY:
RC> On (29 Sep 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Marilyn Burge...
RC> MH> Jews of today are no more guilty of it than whites of today are
RC> MH> guilty of slave trading, or Germans today are guilty of running
RC> MH> concentration camps. Yes, there are bigots who hold it against
RC> MH> them,
RC> Like Al Shroeder?
RC> He seems to be an advocate of collective, inheritable guilt.
You owe me a new keyboard!
Rod "...you should see this one!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * A fool and his money are soon befriended.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Nick's NEXT incarnation!
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:34:14
EID:45e8 22255440
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf1326
On 01-10-96 at 21:50, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ALL:
RS> * Origin: John Brawley's Quailing Quantum Quart of Quantas
RS> Quakers (1:203/9046)
You have misspelled your tagline, specifically, Qantas.
Rod "...your friendly corporate dictionary" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * ...Pro-life? Then what are you doing about TOBACCO?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Peter Trussell
|Sub: Noah's Ark has been foun
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:40:16
EID:42c1 22255500
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf1490
On 22-09-96 at 04:26, PETER TRUSSELL wrote to ALL:
PT> > At 170 metres long and 45 metres wide, it conforms almost exactly
PT> > to the 300 cubit by 50 cubit boat that God told Noah to build,
PT> > according to Genesis 6 in the Bible.
So exact, in fact, that the number of cubits per metre is nearly
0.9 metres to every cubit when measuring the width, but only
_
0.56 metres per cubit if you measure the length.
It's clearly not the same *proportions* as the biblical claim.
Anyway, everyone knows that a cubit, based on the length of a
measure of the arm, is more like the latter, about 55cm in
length.
Therefore, if the ark was really in existence, it would be about
170 metres long but only about 26 metres wide.
Rod "...but hey, what's a bit of elementary mathematics between a
few good men, eh?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * God is watching me? What is he, a pervert?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Wesley humour
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:52:18
EID:9253 22255680
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf1762
On 01-10-96 at 10:28, DAN CEPPA wrote to DAVID WORRELL:
DC> DC> _
DC> DC> _| ~-.
DC> DC> \, *_} <-- Deep in the Heart of Texas
DC> DC> \( (Home of the Chili Pizza)
DC> Just remember: Don't put beans in chili!
Take me to Cici's and feed me Taco Pizza :) :)
Rod "...because that's what I die for!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Yahweh (n): not *my* way.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: I do hope you are all ta
|Date: 05 Jan 97 10:58:20
EID:5011 22255740
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf18cc
On 05-10-96 at 07:48, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to SHELBY SHERMAN:
ML> SS> I quit reading Appleton's nonsense a long time ago. I _do_ read
Herr
ML> SS> Leipzig's and other's replies to him, because I enjoy a good roasting.
ML> What has happened to ol' Laurlie Apploonytoon? I sent him at
ML> least a dozen well crafted, finely honed tactical nukes and
ML> ain't seen as much as a pile of Australian polyester ashes from
ML> the direction of Oz.
ML> Could it be the feeble little cretin has twitted me?
ML> Oh, me. Oh, my. Oh, forebear. What will I ever do...
ML> ...for laughs?
Send those fine-tuned tactical bombs to me, so I can repost them
here and get around his twit filter.
Then, in the meantime, I'll post them into C_VS_E and watch him
explode there too! :)
Rod "...and if he answers them in C_VS_E then I can post you the
answers here, for that 'laugh' that you so love, Marty :)" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * ...Pro-life? Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Jerry Foulwell
|Date: 05 Jan 97 11:06:22
EID:df20 222558c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf1aae
On 29-09-96 at 21:22, LYNDA BUSTILLOZ wrote to DON MARTIN:
LB> DM> I just heard from a gay friend in Lynchburg that a son of Jerry
LB> DM> Falwell is HIV+ and is coming out. I find Jerry such a loathesome
LB> DM> pile of pig turds that I could not have imagined feeling sorry
for
LB> DM> him before this.
LB> I am sorry for his son.
LB> I sincerely hope that his father rises above his habitual state of
LB> judgementalism and spite and doesn't make this even worse for him than
it
LB> already is.
LB> IF he decides to be human rather than "Jerry Falwell", I'll consider
feeling
LB> sorry for old Jer'.
Nah. Just think of how many kids' deaths that Falwell is
responsible for from his hatespeech -- all the gay bashings, the
kids thrown out on the street by their parents, etc, etc.
No. The only thing worthy for Falwell is for God to take him
now.
Rod "...it's the only viable option" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Fundamentalism: Fund=give $$$. Amentalism=without brain.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Jan 97 11:40:24
EID:e937 22255d00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf22a8
On 02-10-96 at 20:02, KEN WIENS wrote to DAN CEPPA:
KW> DC>IOW, Kenny, the greatest abortion provider around is your god.
KW> DC>Perhaps one of the anti-abortion contingent should shoot the
KW> DC>old fucker in the back.
KW> The God I know has never been in the business of mass murder
KW> of the unborn.
So all those fertilised eggs that do not implant in uterine walls
-- yes, they're multi-cellular human life at that point, if you
believe your fundy bullshit -- are aborted. Tens of thousands
each day.
Your god, the biggest Abortion Clinic provider on Earth!
Rod "...hahahaha, I laugh at your worship of him!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Physicist: An atom's way of knowing about atoms!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Your FAITH shaken?
|Date: 05 Jan 97 12:45:26
EID:b3e5 222565a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf31e6
On 02-10-96 at 09:36, JOHN MUSSELWHITE wrote to DAN CEPPA:
JM> 2nd Rule of Creationism: Never acknowledge your DEMONSTRATED errors.
JM> 3rd Rule of Creationism: Don't appear to use creationist sources.
JM> 4th Rule of Creationism: Never pass up an opportunity to obfuscate.
JM> 5th Rule of Creationism: Lying for the Lord is okay.
JM> 6th Rule of Creationism: If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance...
JM> 7th Rule of Creationism: Always appear to know more than you do.
JM> 9th Rule of Creationism: Claim evidence, but never submit it.
JM> 11th Rule of Creationism: Repeat falsified arguments at a later time.
JM> 13th Rule of Creationism: Never honestly answer direct questions.
JM> 14th Rule of Creationism: Change the subject whenever possible.
JM> 28th Rule of Creationism: Shift the burden of proof to your critics.
They're like the rules of acquisition, eh?
Please, we need more!
Rod "... Come to Quark's, Quark's is fun, Come right now, Don't
walk -- run!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Betazoids FYJE not ROFL. [Feel your joke empathically.]
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ric Carter
|Sub: Your FAITH shaken?
|Date: 05 Jan 97 12:46:28
EID:10b6 222565c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3224
On 03-10-96 at 04:35, RIC CARTER wrote to DAN CEPPA:
RC> -> On 09-28-96 12:43, John Musselwhite got back to Dan Ceppa
RC> DC> ...Route 666: TV show of Martin Milner driving a corvette through
Hell.
RC> Interestingly, there IS a US Hwy 666, runs thru E.AZ & W.NM,
RC> straight thru Gallup, where it's known as The Road To Hell
RC> or The Devil's Highway. Local folklore, eh? Or absolute
RC> truth? From what I've seen of Gallup, I'll take Door #2.
They also want to change this route's numbering :( What a suck!
Maybe we can claim the change is a de-facto establishment of
religion through such banning! :)
Rod "...superstitious fools" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 1/
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:22:00
EID:f00e 22256ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3a78
On 07-10-96 at 16:33, KEN WIENS wrote to BILL FORSETH:
KW> KW> You sure can legislate morality. The government has been doing
KW> KW> just that ever since it was formed.
KW> BF> I believe the context is that you can't -successfully- legislate
KW> BF> morality. Governments will occasionally try, and fall on their faces.
KW> BF> Can you name one -successful- law that legislated morality?
KW> Sure. The most recent example perhaps is the US Government stand
KW> on the issue of gay marriages (including Clinton). It sends a
KW> very clear message that such marriages are morally wrong and
KW> rightfully against the law.
That's strange, Ken. I thought the US had freedom of religion.
After all, my partner and I have a belief system based around
freethought. We believe any two people should be able to get
married.
Don't worry, you're wish has been answered anyway. Hawaii only
has a few more days left to appeal this.
Enjoy...
___----------------------------------------------------------------------
Filed in the First Circuit Court, State of Hawaii
11:06 a.m., Dec. 3, 1996
R.S. Yamada, clerk
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FIRST CIRCUIT
STATE OF HAWAII
CIVIL NO. 91-1394
FINDINGS OF FACT AND
CONCLUSIONS OF LAW
NINIA BAEHR, GENORA DANCEL,
TAMMY RODRIGUES, ANTOINETTE
PREGIL, PAT LAGON, AND
JOSEPH MELILLO,
Plaintiffs,
vs .
LAWRENCE H. MIIKE, in his
official capacity as Director
of the Department of Health,
State of Hawaii,
Defendant.
FINDINGS OF FACT AND CONCLUSIONS OF LAW
This case came on for trial before the Honorable Kevin S.C.
Chang on September 10, 1996. Plaintiffs Ninia Baehr, Genora
Dancel, Tammy Rodrigues, Antoinette Pregil, Pat Lagon, and
Joseph Melillo were represented by attorneys Daniel R.
Foley, Evan Wolfson and Kirk H. Cashmere. Defendant
Lawrence H. Miike was represented by Deputy Attorney
Generals Rick J. Eichor and Lawrence Goya. The Court having
reviewed all the evidence admitted at the trial and having
considered the arguments and other written submissions of
counsel for the parties and the briefs filed by the amicus
curiae, hereby makes the following Findings of Fact and
Conclusions of Law.
FINDINGS OF FACTS
I. THE PARTIES
1. At all times relevant herein, Plaintiffs Ninia Baehr,
Genora Dancel, Tammy Rodrigues, Antoinette Pregil, Pat
Lagon and Joseph Melillo (hereinafter collectively referred
to as "Plaintiffs") were or are residents of the City and
County of Honolulu, State of Hawaii.
2. Defendant Lawrence H. Miike ("Defendant") is a resident
of the City and County of Honolulu. State of Hawaii.
Defendant Miike is sued in his official capacity as
Director of Department of Health, State of Hawaii. [When
this lawsuit was commenced, John Lewin was the Director of
Department of Health, State of Hawaii. Thereafter, pursuant
to Rule 43(c) of the Hawaii Rules of Appellate Procedure,
Defendant Miike was automatically substituted for Defendant
Lewin when he assumed the position of the Director of
Department of Health, State of Hawaii. A Notice of
Substitution of Parties was also filed by defense counsel
on April 23, 1996.]
II. RELEVANT PROCEDURAL HISTORY
3. Plaintiffs filed their Complaint for Injunctive and
Declaratory Relief ("Complaint") on May 1, 1991.
4. In pertinent part, Plaintiffs' Complaint alleges that on
or about December 17, 1990, Defendant and his agent denied
the applications for marriage licenses presented by
Plaintiffs Baehr and Dancel, Plaintiffs Rodrigues and
Pregil and Plaintiffs Lagon and Melillo, respectively,
solely on the ground that the couples are of the same sex.
Plaintiffs sought a judicial declaration that the
construction and application of Hawaii Revised Statutes
("HRS") 572-1 to deny an application for a license to marry
because an applicant couple is of the same sex is
unconstitutional.
5. Defendant filed an Amended Answer to Complaint on June
7, 1991. In pertinent part, Defendant admitted that
Plaintiffs Baehr and Dancel, Plaintiffs Rodrigues and
Pregil and Plaintiffs Lagon and Melillo applied for
marriage licenses on December 17, 1990, and that the
couples applications for marriage licenses were denied by
Defendant through his agent on the ground that the couples
are of the same sex.
6. On July 9, 1991, Defendant filed a Motion For Judgement
on the Pleading which sought a dismissal of the lawsuit.
Defendant asserted, in pertinent part, that Plaintiffs in
their Complaint had failed to state a claim against
Defendant upon which relief could be granted.
7. A hearing was held on Defendant's Motion for Judgment on
the Pleadings on September 3, 1991.
8. An Order Granting Defendant's Motion for Judgment on the
Pleading was filed on October 1, 1991. A Judgment in favor
of Defendant and against Plaintiffs was also filed on
October 1, 1991. 9. Plaintiffs filed their Notice of Appeal
to the Supreme Court of the State of Hawaii on October 17,
1991.
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 2/
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:22:02
EID:000e 22256ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3a7a
>>> Continued from previous message
10. In Baehr v. Lewin, 74 Haw. 530, 852 P.2d 44 (1993), the
Hawaii Supreme Court vacated the circuit courts order and
judgment in favor of Defendant and remanded the case to the
circuit court for further proceedings. In pertinent part,
the Hawaii Supreme Court directed the following.
On remand, in accordance with the "strict scrutiny"
standard, the burden will rest on [Defendant] to overcome
the presumption that HRS 572-1 is unconstitutional by
demonstrating that it furthers compelling state interests
and is narrowly drawn to avoid unnecessary abridgments of
constitutional rights.
Id., 74 Haw. at 583 (citations omitted).
11. On May 17, 1993, Defendant filed a motion for
reconsideration or clarification to the Hawaii Supreme
Court.
12. On May 27, 1993, the Hawaii Supreme Court granted
Defendant's motion for reconsideration, or, in the
alternative, for clarification in part, and clarified the
mandate on remand as follows.
Because, for the reasons stated in the plurality opinion
filed in the above-captioned matter on May 5, 1993, the
circuit court erroneously granted Lewin's motion for
judgment on the pleadings and dismissed the plaintiffs'
complaint, the circuit court's order and judgment are
vacated and the matter is remanded for further proceedings
consistent with the pluralitv opinion. On remand, in
accordance with the "strict scrutiny" standard, the burden
will rest on [Defendant] to overcome the presumption that
HRS 572-1 is unconstitutional by demonstrating that it
furthers compelling state interests and is narrowly drawn
to avoid unnecessary abridgments of constitutional rights.
Baehr v. Lewin 74 Haw. 530, 852 P.2d 44 (1993),
reconsideration and clarification granted in part, 74 Haw.
645, 852 P.2d 74 (1993) (citations omitted).
13. An Order of Early Assignment to Trial Judge was filed
on May 5, 1995.
14. On July 13, 1995, Defendant Director of Health's Motion
for Reservation of Questions to the Supreme Court of Hawaii
and for Stay Pending Appeal, or, in the alternative for
Stay Pendinq the Action of The Commission on Sexual
Orientation and the Law and of The Eighteenth Legislature
filed on July 5, 1995, was granted in part, and the trial
in the above-captioned case was rescheduled from September
25, 1995 to July 15, 1996. See Order Denying Defendant
Director of Health's Motion for Reservation of Questions to
the Supreme Court of Hawaii and for Stay Pending Appeal,
and Granting Alternative Motion for Stay of Trial Pending
the Action of The Commission on Sexual Orientation and the
Law and of The Eighteenth Legislature filed on September 7,
1995.
15. A Notice of Change of Responsible Deputy was filed on
April 18, 1996, which stated that responsibility for
handling of the case on behalf of the Defendant had been
changed to Deputy Attorney General Rick J. Eichor.
16. Following a status conference with counsel on April 19,
1996, a Stipulation to Continue Trial Date and Order was
filed on May 9, 1996. As a result, the trial in the
above-captioned case was continued from the week of August
1, 1996 to September 10, 1996.
III. DEFENDANT'S POSITION
17. The directive of the Hawaii Supreme Court is clear.
Pursuant to the mandate of the Supreme Court, Defendant has
the burden of proof in this case. Id.
18. Defendant's First Amended Pretrial Statement was filed
on May 13, 1996. In pertinent part, Defendant stated the
following.
[A]ll that remains is for the State to show that there is
a compelling State interest to deny Plaintiff marriage
licenses because they are of the same sex and that this
compelling interest is narrowly drawn to avoid unnecessary
abridgments of constitutional rights.
The following substantial and compelling state interests
will he shown:
a. That the State has a compelling interest in protecting
the health and welfare of children and other persons. . . .
b. That the State has a compelling interest in fostering
procreation within a marital setting. . . .
c. That the State has a compelling interest in securing or
assuring recognition of Hawaii marriages in other
jurisdictions. . . .
d. That the State has a compelling interest in protecting
the State's public fisc from the reasonably foreseeable
effects of State approval of same-sex marriage in the laws
of Hawaii. . . .
e. That the State has a compelling state interest in
protecting civil liberties, including the reasonably
foreseeable effects of State approval of same-sex
marriages, on its citizens.
Defendant's First Amended Pretrial Statement at pages 2-4.
19. Defendant's Pre-Trial Memorandum was filed on September
6, 1996. In pertinent part, Defendant asserted the
following.
The State of Hawaii has a compelling interest to promote
the optimal development of children. . . . It is the State
of Hawaii's position that, all things being equal, it is
best for a child that it be raised in a single home by its
parents, or at least by a married male and female. . . .
The marriage law furthers the compelling state interest of
securing or assuring recognition of Hawaii marriages in
other jurisdictions. . . .
The marriage law furthers the compelling state interest in
protecting the public fisc from the reasonably foreseeable
effects of approval of same-sex marriage.
Defendant's Pre-Trial Memorandum at pages 1, 2 and 4.
20. Defense counsel acknowledged Defendant's burden of
proof and, in pertinent part, stated the following in his
Opening Statement. "The State has a compelling interest in
promoting the optimal development of children. . . . It is
the State's policy to pursue the optimal development of
children, to unite children with their mothers and fathers,
and to have mothers and fathers take responsibility for
their children." Trial Transcript ("Tr.") 9/10/96. pages
4-5.
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 3/
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:22:04
EID:900f 22256ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3a7c
>>> Continued from previous message
IV. DEFENDANT'S WITNESSES
21. Defendant presented testimony from the following expert
witnesses: (1) Kyle D. Pruett, M.D.; (2) David Eggebeen,
Ph.D.; (3) Richard Williams, Ph.D.: and (4) Thomas S.
Merrill, Ph D.
22. Dr. Kyle Pruett is an expert in the field of
psychiatry, specializing in child development. Beginning in
1981 and continuing for a ten-year period, Dr. Pruett
conducted a longitudinal study of fifteen families with
young children with regard to the developmental competence
of children raised primarily by their fathers in intact
families. At the end of his study, Dr. Pruett found that
children raised by families with primarily paternal care in
the early months and years of life are competent and robust
in their development, and are not sources of clinical
concern.
23. In pertinent part, Dr. Pruett found that there were
unique paternal contributions made by a father which had a
positive effect on the following: (1) a child's self-esteem
and feelings of being loved and important to the family;
(2) a child's ability to cope with frustration and
discouragement; (3) a child's interest in generative or
creative matters; and (4) a child's gender flexibility.
24. However, Dr. Pruett also stated that the unique or
non-replicable contributions offered by a father (and the
unique contributions offered by a mother) are "small", in
comparison to the contributions that parents make together
to their children. Tr. 9/10/96, page 84. Dr. Pruett
conceded that the beneficial results described above are
not essential to being a happy, healthy and well-adjusted
child. Tr. 9/10/96, pages 86-87.
25. Dr. Pruett testified that biological parents have a
predisposition which helps them in parenting children. The
predisposition is based upon the following factors: (1)
chromosomal or genetic contributions; (2) the parents'
choice and timing of conception or procreation; (3) the
physical changes to the mother's body and the father's
observations and interaction with those changes; (4)
immediate bonding upon the child's birth; and (5) a
predisposition to sacrifice and make one's self secondary
to the needs of the child.
26. Dr. Pruett also expressed his belief that children
which are adopted or are the result of assisted
reproduction live in a "burden[ed] system." Tr. 9/10/96,
pages 58, 62.
27. Dr. Pruett stated that same-sex relationships do not
provide the same type of learning model or experience for
children as does male-female parenting, because there is an
overabundance of information about one gender and little
information about the other gender. Tr. 9/10/96, page 63.
28. Nevertheless, Dr. Pruett also stated that same-sex
parents can, and do, produce children-with a clear sense of
gender identity. Tr. 9/10/96, pages 106.
29. Dr. Pruett stated the following with respect to raising
children in a same-sex marriage environment.
Q. And in comparing same sex parenting with opposite sex
parenting, which is more likely to pose greater
developmental difficulties for children?
A. In terms of probability, same-sex marriages are more
likely to provide a more burdened nurturing domain.
Tr. 9/10/96, page 63.
30. It is Dr. Pruett's opinion that most children are more
likely to reach their optimal development being raised in
an intact family by their mother and father. According to
Dr. Pruett, this family configuration presents the fewest
burdens on child development. Tr. 9/10/96, page 63.
31. However, Dr. Pruett also stated that single parents,
gay fathers, lesbian mothers and same-sex couples have the
potential to, and often do, raise children that are happy,
healthy and well-adjusted. Tr. 9/10/96, page 69.
32. Dr. Pruett testified that single parents, gay fathers,
lesbian mothers, adoptive parents, foster parents and
same-sex couples can be, and do become, good parents. Tr.
9/10/96, page 71. Significantly, Dr. Pruett knows the
foregoing to be true based on his clinical experience. Tr.
9/10/96, page 72.
33. More specifically, Dr. Pruett stated that parents'
sexual orientation does not disqualify them from being
good, fit, loving or successful parents. Tr. 9/10/96, page
72.
34. Dr. Pruett agreed that, in general, gay and lesbian
parents are as fit and loving parents as non-gay persons
and couples. Tr. 9/10/96, page 73.
35. Same-sex couples have the same capability as
different-sex couples to manifest the qualities conducive
to good parenting. Tr. 9/10/96, page 75.
Dr. Pruett testified as follows.
Q. And you've seen same-sex couples that have those
qualities [to being good parents]?
A. Yes.
Q. And have made good parents?
A. And have made good parents, yes.
Q. And good parents as a couple?
A. Yes.
Tr. 9/10/96, page 75.
36. Dr. Pruett also agreed that same-sex couples should be
allowed to adopt children, provide foster care and to take
children in and raise and care for them. Tr. 9/10/96, page
73.
37. Importantly, Dr. Pruett testified that the quality of
the nurturing relationship between parent and child could,
and would, outweigh any limitation or burden imposed on the
child as a result of having same-sex parents. Tr. 9/10/96,
page 79.
38. Finally, when questioned regarding research performed
by Charlotte Patterson regarding children raised by
same-sex couples, Dr. Pruett expressed his agreement with
the general conclusions reached by Dr. Patterson. Tr.
9/10/96, pages 132-133.
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 4/
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:22:06
EID:a00d 22256ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3a7e
>>> Continued from previous message
More specifically, Dr. Pruett agreed with the following
conclusions, that gay and lesbian parents "are doing a good
job" and that "the kids are turning out just fine." Tr.
9/10/96, pages 133-134.
Dr. Pruett was not surprised by Dr. Patterson's
conclusions. In fact, they are what he expected to see, and
although Dr. Pruett questions Dr. Patterson's research
methodology, he is not aware of any data, research or
literature which disputes Dr. Patterson's findings and
conclusions. Tr. 9/10/96, pages 132-134.
39. Dr. David Eggebeen is an expert in the field of
sociology with a special emphasis in demographics related
to family and children.
40. In pertinent part, Dr. Eggebeen testified regarding
changes or trends which have occurred in partnering, child
bearing and labor force behavior in the United States. For
example, Dr. Eggebeen testified regarding the following
facts: (1) the marriage rate in the U.S. population has
declined over the past twenty years; (2) the median age of
marriage for women in the U.S. population has risen over
the past twenty years; (3) the annual divorce rate in the
U.S. population has increased over the past approximate
thirty years; (4) the number of young adults currently
cohabiting has increased over the past eight years; (5) the
birth rate for women in the U.S. population has decreased
over the past twenty years; (6) the number of proportionate
births to non-married women in certain racial groups has
increased over the past thirty years; and (7) the number of
women in the labor force in the U.S. population and the
number of working mothers with children under the age of
six has increased dramatically over the past thirty years.
41. Based on his studies of the changes referred above, Dr.
Eggebeen testified as follows.
[C]hildren are going through fundamental changes in the
structure of childhood and what we're seeing today is
children today are living in very different circumstances
than was evident or the case in the past. It's common today
to find children in single parent families. It's common
today to find children in single parent families. It's
common today to find children living with a mother who
never married. It's common today to find children in
remarried families. It's common today to find children in
dual earner families where both parents participate in the
type of work. It is common or getting common to find
children whose parents never married and they're
cohabiting.
Tr. 9/11/96, pages 32-33.
42. However, Dr. Eggebeen also testified that, as of 1990,
almost six out of ten children in the United States are
living in families where their parents are married and both
of the parents are biological parents of the child.
43. Dr. Eggebeen explained further that ". . . children
have gone through substantial changes in their lives. . .
[T]here is greater diversity in living arrangements and
family --- in families that children live today in the
'9Os. However, a substantial percentage of children remain
or will spend their childhood in . . . traditional kinds of
family structures." Tr. 9/11/96, page 38.
44. Based on his research, Dr. Eggebeen concluded that
marriage is a "gateway to becoming a parent," and marriage
is synonymous with having children. Tr. 9/11/96, page 42.
45. However, Dr. Eggebeen also testified that individuals
get married without intending to have children, or marry
and are biologically unable to have children. Further, the
absence of the intent or the ability to have children does
not weaken the institution of marriage.
In fact, Dr. Eggebeen recognized that people marry and want
to get married for reasons other than having children; that
those reasons are valuable and important; and that
regardless of children, it is beneficial to society for
adults to marry. Dr. Eggebeen testified that individuals
should not be prohibited from marriage simply because they
cannot have children. Tr. 9/11/96, pages 55-57.
46. Dr. Eggebeen testified that children raised in a single
parent home are at a "heightened risk", as compared to
children raised in a married couple family. Tr. 9/11/96,
page 43. According to Dr. Eggebeen, children in a single
parent family are at greater risk for the following: (1)
poverty or economic hardship; (2) poor academic
performance; (3) behavior problems and conduct disorders;
and (4) premarital or teenage birth for girls.
47. Dr. Eggebeen stated that remarriage or cohabiting with
a step-parent does not lessen or eliminate the risks to
children from single parent families. "[C]hildren in a
remarriage family. . . do not seem to perform any
differently than children who remain in single parent
families and therefore their performance or the risk of
poor outcomes is about the same as is for children in
single parent families." Tr. 9/11/96, page 46.
48. Dr. Eggebeen suggested that the lack of improvement in
risk factors in remarriage or step-parent families may be
attributable to "the role ambiguity of step parent
relationships," characteristics which a step-parent brings
to the family and which adversely affect the children or
the absence of a biological relationship with the children.
Tr. 9/11/96, pages 46-48. With respect to the latter, Dr.
Eggebeen related the story of Cinderella and her evil
stepmother. Tr. 9/11/96, page 48.
49. Dr. Eggebeen equates a same-sex couple with children to
a step-parent situation with all of the above-described
risk factors. Specifically, Dr. Eggebeen testified that
"same-sex marriages where children [are] involved is by
definition a step parent relationship," because there is
one parent who is not the biological parent of the child.
Tr. 9/11/96, pages 49.
50. However, Dr. Eggebeen conceded that there are some
situations involving a same-sex couple which would not fit
the classic step-parent scenario. For example, a situation
involving a same-sex couple that sought and received
reproductive assistance and in which the non-biological
parent was fully involved from the beginning of the
planning process, was present throughout the nine month
period and at birth, and thereafter, raised the child as
though they were the biological parents of the child. Tr.
9/11/96, pages 114-115.
51. Dr. Eggebeen also testified that single parents,
adoptive parents, lesbian mothers, gay fathers and same-sex
couples can create stable family environments and raise
healthy and well-adjusted children. Tr. 9/11/96, page 82.
52. It is Dr. Eggebeen's opinion that gay and lesbian
couples can, and do, make excellent parents and that they
are capable of raising a healthy child. Tr. 9/11/96, page
83.
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways.
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 5/
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:22:08
EID:300c 22256ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3a80
>>> Continued from previous message
53. Dr. Eggebeen agrees that gay and lesbian parents should
be allowed to adopt children and serve as foster parents.
Tr. 9/11/96, page 85.
54. Dr. Eggebeen testified that cohabiting same-sex couples
are less stable than married couples. However, the sole
basis for Dr. Eggebeen's conclusion is a chart taken from
the book entitled American Couples, co-authored by Pepper
Schwartz, Ph.D. The chart which summarizes approximately
twenty year old information is Defendant's Exhibit Q, and
depicts a comparison of the percentages of married, gay and
lesbian couples, respectively, which had stayed together or
broken up over periods of time.
Dr. Eggebeen testified that Exhibit Q is the best data that
he could find which proves that gay and lesbian couples
have substantially higher break up rates over time than
married different sex couples. Tr. 9/11/96,-pages 73-74.
Dr. Eggebeen admitted that he has done limited research on
the subject of same sex couples and gay and lesbian
parenting, and agrees that Charlotte Patterson and Pepper
Schwartz are experts in the fields. Tr. 9/11/96, pages
131-132.
55. Finally, and importantly, Dr. Eggebeen stated that
children of same-sex couples would be helped if their
families had access to or were able to receive the
following benefits of marriage: (1) state income tax
advantages; (2) public assistance; (3) enforcement of child
support, alimony or other support orders; (4) inheritance
rights; and (5) the ability to prosecute wrongful death
actions. Dr. Eggebeen also agreed that children of same-sex
couples would be helped if their families received the
social status derived from marriage. Tr. 9/11/96, pages
89-92.
56. Dr. Richard Williams is an expert in the field of
psychology with special expertise in qualitative and
quantitative research and research methods, statistical
analysis and construction of research studies.
57. Dr. Williams was asked by defense counsel to review and
analyze studies of children raised by gay and lesbian
parents. He reviewed approximately twenty to thirty
studies, and eventually selected nine studies to critique.
58. At trial, Dr. Williams presented commentary regarding
nine research studies which defense counsel anticipated
that Plaintiffs' expert witnesses would rely upon for their
testimony and opinions in this case.
Dr. Williams' general criticism of the nine studies
included the following: (1) there was non-representative
sampling of heterosexual, gay and lesbian parents; (2)
inadequate sample size was employed; and (3) comparison
groups used in the studies were not comparable in terms of
household make up. Dr Williams also presented specific
criticism as to each of the nine referenced studies .
59. The testimony of Dr. Williams is not persuasive or
believable because of his expressed bias against the social
sciences, which include the fields of psychology and
sociology.
For example, Dr. Williams believes that a majority of the
studies in the social sciences have theoretical or
methodological flaws. Tr. 9/12/96, pages 71-72. According
to Dr. Williams, modern psychology is so flawed that no
fix, reconciliation or overhaul can correct it. Tr.
9/12/96, page 70.
60. Further, even assuming that research studies are
conducted properly, Dr. Williams still doubts the ultimate
value of psychology and other social sciences. Tr. 9/12/96,
page 73.
61. At times, Dr. Williams expressed severe views. For
example, Dr. Williams believes that there is no scientific
proof that evolution occurred. Tr. 9/12/96, page 80.
62. Finally, Dr. Williams admitted that his critique of
studies regarding gay and lesbian parenting is a minority
position. Tr. 9/12/96, pages 74-75.
63. Defendant's last witness was Thomas Merrill, Ph.D. Dr.
Merrill is an expert in the field of psychology, including
the areas of human development, gender development and
relationships relative to children and their development.
64. Dr. Merrill is a psychologist in private practice in
Honolulu, Hawaii. His clinical experience with families
involving one or two gay or lesbian parents is limited. Dr.
Merrill has not testified as an expert in Family Court
cases which involved the sexual orientation of a parent or
a same-sex couple and the custody of a child. He has not
participated in or conducted any study which focused on the
children of gay and lesbian parents. Tr. 9/13/96, page 36.
65. Dr. Merrill examined the issue of same-sex versus
opposite sex parent and child development for the first
time as a result of his retention in this case. Tr.
9/13/96, page 35.
66. In pertinent part, Dr. Merrill testified that the
parental relationship is an important learning model for
children and that it is significant to have opposite sex
parents for a child's learning. Tr. 9/13/96, pages 12-13.
67. Dr. Merrill stated that different-sex parents are
important because both parents serve as models and as
objects for a child's learning and development. Dr. Merrill
explained as follows:
We interact with -- and when I say identify, we measure and
develop ourself in relationship to our same gender parent.
We also identify our relationship with our opposite sex
parents and there are different developmental stages where
that relationship with the opposite sex parent is equal to
or more important than our development -- our relationship
at the moment with the same gender parent.
Tr. 9/13/96, page 13.
68. According to Dr. Merrill, although replacement of a
biological parent is certainly possible, as in the case of
remarriage and adoption, it would result in the presence of
a different influence on the child and the child's
developmental outcome may be different. Tr. 9/13/96, pages
20-21.
69. Dr. Merrill testified that same-sex parents do provide
a learning experience for a child. However, Dr. Merrill
stated that there is insufficient information regarding the
effects of being raised by gay or lesbian parents on the
development of a child. Tr. 9/13/96, page 22.
As a result, Dr. Merrill has no opinion regarding the
development of children in a family with same-sex parents.
Specifically, he cannot say whether or not children raised
in a same-sex family environment will develop to be
healthy, well-adjusted adults. Tr. 9/13/96, page 38.
70. At the close of his direct examination, Dr. Merrill
presented the following opinions.
>>> Continued to next message
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 6/
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:22:10
EID:c00c 22256ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3a82
>>> Continued from previous message
Q. In your opinion, to a reasonable degree of psychological
probability, in what family structure are children most
likely to reach their optimal development?
A. Children are most apt to reach their optimal level of
development as exhibited in terms of their adjustment as
adults in a family in which there is a limited amount of
strife, a maximum amount of nurturing, a maximum amount of
support, a maximum amount of guidance, a maximum amount of
leadership, and a very strong and intimate bond between
parents and child.
Q. And does the presence of the mother and father improve
the likelihood that there will be a strong bond?
A. That would be a significant part of the maximum optimum
environment in which to raise a child, yes.
Tr. 9/13/96, pages 32-33.
71. Dr. Merrill testified that the sexual orientation of a
parent is not an indication of parental fitness. Tr.
9/13/96, page 46.
72. Dr. Merrill also agreed that gay and lesbian couples
with children do have successful relationships. Tr.
9/13/96, page 46.
73. On one occasion, Dr. Merrill was retained by two
attorneys to do a custody evaluation in a case involving a
same-sex relationship on the mother's side. In part, he was
asked to address children's development issues. Dr. Merrill
testified that the fact that there was a same-sex
relationship on the mother's side was not an issue and did
not affect his evaluation in the case. Tr. 9/13/96, page
34.
74. Finally, and in pertinent part, Dr. Merrill testified
as follows.
Q. Now, doctor, do you think the children, regardless of
whether they have a mother and a father, male-female
parents, single parents, adoptive parents, gay and lesbian
parents, same gender parents, should have the same
opportunity in society to reach their optimum development,
each child?
A. Yes, I do.
Tr. 9/13/96, page 45.
Dr. Merrill further stated that children should not be
denied benefits, such as health care, education and housing
based on the status of their parents. Opposite-sex,
same-sex, single and adoptive parent status should not be
a basis to deny benefits to children. Tr. 9/13/96, page 46.
V. PLAINTIFFS' WITNESSES
75. Although Plaintiffs do not have the burden of proof in
this case, they nevertheless presented testimony from the
following expert witnesses: (1) Pepper Schwartz, Ph.D; (2)
Charlotte Patterson, Ph.D.; (3) David Brodzinsky, Ph.D; and
(4) Robert Bidwell, M.D.
76. The court found the testimony of Dr. Schwartz and Dr.
Brodzinsky to be especially credible.
Dr. Schwartz and Dr. Brodzinsky are well-qualified
individuals. See Plaintiffs' Exhibits 1 and 2,
respectively.
At trial, each of them testified in a knowledgeable,
informative and straightforward manner worthy of belief. In
general, the expert opinions of Dr. Schwartz and Dr.
Brodzinsky appear to be well-founded based on their
significant research and analysis, and their clinical and
professional experience, respectively.
77. Dr. Schwartz is an expert in sociology and
interdisciplinary studies of sexuality with a special
expertise in gender and human sexuality, marriage and the
family, and same-sex relations in parenting and research.
She testified, in pertinent part, to the following.
78. Initially, Dr. Schwartz discussed her book, American
Couples. Dr. Schwartz specifically addressed a chart taken
from the book and relied upon by Defendant. According to Dr
Schwartz, the data contained in Defendant's Exhibit Q
represents the following: (1) that there is a substantially
higher break up rate for all three kinds of couples (gay
men, lesbian and cohabitors) than there is for married
couples; and (2) married couples have an advantage that
keeps them together longer than other kinds of couples. Tr.
9/16/96, pages 47-48.
79. Dr. Schwartz noted that the data presented in American
Couples was collected in the late '70s and up until 1980 or
1981. Since that time, there have been significant changes
in society. For example, the entry of AIDS into gay male
life and society, has made people more cautious and less
likely to have multiple partners and more desirous of
settling down. Gay men, in particular, have been hardest
hit by the disease and it has made monogomy and couplehood
more attractive.
Additionally, there is now a trend in which people
contemplate and want to be more serious, to make families
and to engage in long-term committed relationships. This is
a large change from the attitudes of the late '70s and
early '80s. Tr. 9/16/96, page 54-56.
80. Dr. Schwartz testified that heterosexual and homosexual
people want to get married. Tr. 9/16/96, pages 58-59, 65.
The doctor stated specifically:
[T]hey want companionship, they want love, they want trust,
they want someone who will be with them through thick and
thin. They're looking for a live and a love partner. . . .
[I]n our own [culture] it's an aspiration for --- for
intimacy and security. And that is the definition of
marriage as people first and primarily think of it."
Tr. 9/16/96, page 59.
81. Dr. Schwartz stated that same-sex couples can, and do,
have successful, loving and committed relationships. Tr.
9/16/96, page 129.
82. Dr. Schwartz also identified practical, economic,
legal, social and psychological benefits of marriage and
reasons for people to marry. Tr. 9/16/96, pages 59-65.
83. Dr. Schwartz testified that the sexual orientation of
parents is not an indicator of parental fitness. Tr.
9/16/96, page 128.
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 7/
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:22:12
EID:500d 22256ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3a84
>>> Continued from previous message
84. Dr. Schwartz also testified that gay and lesbian
parents and same-sex couples are as fit and loving parents,
as non-gay persons and different-sex couples. Tr. 9/16/96,
page 127.
85. Dr. Schwartz believes that the primary quality of
parenting is not the parenting structure, or biology, but
is the nurturing relationship between parent and child. Tr.
9/16/96, page 129.
86. Dr. Schwartz also believes that children should not be
denied benefits and protections because of the status of
their parents. Tr. 9/16/96, pages 129-130.
87. Dr. Schwartz has the following opinions.
First, there is no reason related to the promotion of the
optimal development of children why same-sex couples should
not be permitted to marry. Tr. 9/16/96, page 130.
Second, allowing same-sex couples to marry would not have
a negative impact on society or the institution of
marriage. Dr. Schwartz testified, "[T]here would be no
dishonor and no ultimate fragility to the institution [of
marriage] by including gays and lesbians." Tr. 9/16/96,
pages 130-131. Third, allowing same-sex couples to marry
would have a positive impact on society and the institution
of marriage. Dr. Schwartz stated the following.
I think that marriage is really a high state of hope and
effort for people. I think when we deny it to people we say
that --- that there's some other location for love and
raising children and that we're not as concerned about
these kids' welfare or in some ways we don't think it would
be good for them to be in a married home. It's not that
those children don't exist, it's not that those families
don't exist, they do.
To me, I think that most Americans believe in marriage
strongly. I believe by taking other people into the fold
and asking that they behave as responsible to their
children to give them support to have both rituals to enter
into their relationships and legal complications by exiting
them, that we shore up how important we think marriage is.
I think it --- I think it in no way undermines it and I
think it strengthens it by our insistence about how
important it is and why we hope this will be available for
all families.
Tr. 9/16/96, pages 131-132.
88. Dr. Charlotte Patterson is an expert in the field of
psychology of child development with a special expertise in
lesbian and gay parenting and the development of children
of lesbian and gay parents. She testified, in pertinent
part, to the following.
89. Dr. Patterson is a professor at the University of
Virginia. She has completed two studies regarding the
children of lesbian and gay parents.
90. The first study is known as the Bay Area Family Study.
The study involved thirty-seven families, all of which had
at least one child between the ages of four and nine. In
every case, the children had either been born to women who
identified themselves as lesbian at the time of the study,
or who adopted children early in life. Data in the Bay Area
Family Study was collected in 1990 and 1991.
91. According to Dr. Patterson, the main result of the Bay
Area Family Study was a conclusion that the particular
group of children, when compared to available norms,
appeared to be developing in a normal fashion. Tr. 9/17/96,
pages 23-24.
However, Dr. Patterson also noted a finding that the
children of the lesbian mothers sample were more likely to
express that they felt (within a normal range) symptoms of
stress in their lives, as compared to children in the
normal sample. The children who described symptoms of
stress also said that they felt an overall sense of
well-being about themselves in their lives. Although she
has two plausible explanations, Dr. Patterson does not have
a definitive interpretation or explanation for the above
finding. Tr. 9/17/96, page 25.
Dr. Patterson agreed that the sample group of lesbian
mothers in the Bay Area Family Study, when considering
ethnic background, education, income, and other
socioeconomic factors is not representative of women and
all mothers in America. Tr. 9/17/96, pages 81-84.
92. Dr. Patterson's second study is known as the
Contemporary Family Study. The study involved eighty
families who conceived a child using the resources of the
Sperm Bank of California. and all of which had at least one
child that was at least five years old at the time of the
study. Fifty-five of the families were headed by lesbian
mothers. The remaining twenty-five families were headed by
heterosexual parents. Most of the data for this study was
collected in 1994 and 1995.
93. The three main conclusions of the Contemporary Family
Study are as follows: (1) as a group, the children born as
a result of donor insemination were developing normally;
(2) sexual orientation of the parents was not a good
predictor of how well children do in terms of a child's
well-being and adjustment; and (3) irrespective of their
parents' sexual orientation, children who live in a
harmonious family environment had better reports from
parents and teachers. Tr. 9/17/96, pages 36-37.
94. Based on her studies and review of other research, Dr.
Patterson testified as follows. A biological relationship
between parent and child is not essential to raising a
healthy child. The quality of parenting which a child
receives is more important than a biological connection or
the gender of a parent. Tr. 9/17/96, pages 42-43.
95. According to Dr. Patterson, there is no data or
research which establishes that gay fathers and lesbian
mothers are less capable of being good parents than non-gay
people and which supports denying gay people the ability to
adopt and raise children. Tr. 9/17/96, page 52.
96. Dr. Patterson believes that gay and lesbian people and
same-sex couples are as fit and loving parents as non-gay
people and different-sex couples. Further, sexual
orientation is not an indicator of parental fitness. Tr.
* SLMR 2.1 * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways.
--- Maximus 2.02
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 8/
|Date: 07 Jan 97 17:07:24
EID:a008 222788e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d2124c
N96. Dr. Patterson believes that gay and lesbian people and
same-sex couples are as fit and loving parents as non-gay
people and different-sex couples. Further, sexual
orientation is not an indicator of parental fitness. Tr.
9/17/96, pages 53-54.
97. Dr. Patterson testified that same-sex couples can, and
do, have successful, loving and committed relationships.
Tr. 9/17/96, pages 54.
98. Dr. Patterson presented the following opinion. There is
no reason related to the promotion of the development of
children why same-sex couples should not be permitted to
marry. Tr. 9/17/96, page 55.
99. Dr. David Brodzinsky is an expert in the fields of
psychology and child development with a special expertise
in adoption and other forms of nonbiological parenting and
the development of children raised by nonbiological
parents.
100. Dr. Brodzinsky counsels children and families in a
clinical setting and also has an academic appointment at
Rutgers University. In the academic setting, Dr. Brodzinsky
does research, teaches, directs a program on counseling
foster children and does clinical supervision. He has been
at Rutgers University since 1974.
Dr. Brodzinsky serves as a consultant to several adoption
agencies in New Jersey and New York and is a founding
director of the Adoption Institute, a newly formed
nonprofit organization, whose mission is to provide
information and education and promote research regarding
adoption and adoption practices. In the past ten to fifteen
years, he has conducted research and written extensively on
the psychology of adoption, foster care, stress and coping
in children.
101. In his clinical practice, Dr. Brodzinsky has worked
with gay and lesbian parents. He has provided counseling
over the years to approximately forty families headed by
same-sex parents and same-sex couples. In pertinent part,
Dr. Brodzinsky testified as follows.
102. Dr. Brodzinsky stated the following with respect to
the following question: "Are there advantages to being
raised by one's biological parents?"
The issue is not the structural variable, biological versus
nonbiological, one parent versus two parent. Those are kind
of --- they hide, I think, really what is going on. The
issue is really the process variables, how children are
cared for, is the child provided warmth, is the child
provided consistency of care, is the child provided a
stimulated environment, is the child given support. Those
are the factors we can call, for lack of a better way of
saying it, sensitive care-giving which transcend whether
you're a single parent, two parent, biological,
nonbiological. The research shows that --- that those are
the factors that carry the biggest weight. And when you
take a look at structural variables, there's not all that
much support that structural variable in and of themselves
are all that important.
Tr. 9/18/96, page 42.
103. Dr. Brodzinsky noted that same-sex parent adoptions
occur and it is his opinion that same-sex parent adoptions
should be allowed. Tr. 9/18/96, page 49. Dr. Brodzinsky
explained as follows.
Q. As an expert in adoption and as a psychologist, do you
believe that gay men and lesbians, same-sex couples, should
be continue to be allowed to adopt children?
A. Absolutely.
Q. Why?
A. Because they are able to provide, like heterosexual
couples or single parents, warm and loving environments.
They're --- they're adopting children now. They're doing a
good job of it. Obviously, you know, when we --- when a
person seeks to adopt, there is an evaluation. It would be
the same kind of an evaluation. We would exclude a gay or
lesbian individual for the same reason that we would
exclude a heterosexual individual. That is, if they had a
significant emotional problems or some other kind of factor
that we felt, as -- as, you know, agency consultants, you
know, would not -- would not predict well to a child's
well-being.
Tr. 9/18/96, pages 56-57.
104. Dr. Brodzinsky testified that the research shows that
--- Maximus 2.02
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SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays 9/
|Date: 07 Jan 97 17:07:48
EID:3009 222788e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d21264
>>> Continued from previous message
108. Finally, it is Dr. Brodzinsky's opinion that there is
no reason related to the promotion of the development of
children why same-sex couples should not be permitted to
marry. Tr. 9/18/96, page 63.
109. Dr. Robert Bidwell is an expert in pediatrics with a
subspecialty in adolescent medicine. Dr. Bidwell is the
Director of Adolescent Medicine at Kapiolani Medical Center
and is also employed at the University of Hawaii Department
of Pediatrics with the John A. Burns School of Medicine.
Dr. Bidwell teaches medical students and pediatric
residents in training, provides patient care, and practices
adolescent medicine and general pediatrics at Kapiolani
Medical Center.
110. In his clinical practice, Dr. Bidwell has treated
children of same-sex parents. He has provided medical
services to hundreds of children with families which
included a single gay or lesbian parent or same-sex
parents. In pertinent part, Dr. Bidwell testified as
follows.
111. Dr. Bidwell described the best environment to raise a
healthy, well-adjusted child or adolescent as being one in
which "there's all those things that we associate with
family, which is love and nurturance and guidance,
protection, safety." Tr. 9/19/96, pages 27-28.
112. According to Dr. Bidwell, gay and lesbian parents and
same-sex couples can, and do, provide an environment for
their children. Tr. 9/19/96, page 29.
113. Dr. Bidwell testified that gay and lesbian parents and
same-sex couples raise children that are just as healthy
and well-adjusted as those raised by different-sex couples.
Tr. 9/19/96, page 38.
114. Dr. Bidwell conceded -- that he has worked with
adolescents and teen-aged children living in a same-sex
family environment that have experienced embarrassment,
distress or a "difficult time" because their family "is not
the same as the majority of families that surround them."
However, the doctor also described the situation as a phase
in the child's development. He said the following.
What's been reassuring to me is that -- that this has been
a phase in their development, that I do not know of any
teenager who has not gotten through this phase intact as a
healthy adolescent. And, yes, I think there was pain. I
think that there may have been tears from time to time,
wishing that things were different. But I think it's -- I
mean it's what we call growing up. I mean there are many
different kinds of families. And all of our parents are
different in some way from what we would like to see. . . .
So I think my experience has been for the same -- has been
the same for the children of gay and lesbian parents, is
that they may go through a rough time. And not all of them
do. Remarkably, most of them, they make their
accommodations. They find ways to deal with it. But they
get through these periods. And if anything, I think they
grow stronger through that experience. They learn about
life. They learn about diversity. And the research -- and
although I'm not a heavy-duty research person, I do look at
the research. The research confirms that --that teenagers
get through this period.
But I guess to get back to your question, yes, there is a
special experience for these young people, and sometimes
it's painful. But it doesn't do developmental damage to
these kids. If anything, it creates strength and promotes
growth.
Tr. 9/19/96, pages 30-32.
115. Finally, Dr. Bidwell believes that children of
same-sex parents would benefit, with respect to their
health, development and adjustment, if their parents were
married. Tr. 9/19/96, page 38.
VI. SPECIFIC FINDINGS
116. The following are specific findings of fact for this
case based on the credible evidence presented at trial.
117. Defendant presented insufficient evidence and failed
to establish or prove any adverse consequences to the
public fisc resulting from same-sex marriage.
118. Defendant presented insufficient evidence and failed
to establish or prove any adverse impacts to the State of
Hawaii or its citizens resulting from the refusal of other
jurisdictions to recognize Hawaii same-sex marriages or
from application of the federal constitutional provision
which requires other jurisdictions to give full faith and
--- Maximus 2.02
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays10/
|Date: 07 Jan 97 17:08:02
EID:655f 22278900
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d21272
>>> Continued from previous message
127. The sexual orientation of parents does not
automatically disqualify them from being good, fit, loving
or successful parents.
128. The sexual orientation of parents is not in and of
itself an indicator of the overall adjustment and
development of children.
129. Gay and lesbian parents and same-sex couples have the
potential to raise children that are happy, healthy and
well-adjusted.
130. Gay and lesbian parents and same-sex couples are
allowed to adopt children, provide foster care and to raise
and care for children.
131. Gay and lesbian parents and same-sex couples can
provide children with a nurturing relationship and a
nurturing environment which is conducive to the development
of happy, healthy and well-adjusted children.
132. Gay and lesbian parents and same-sex couples can be as
fit and loving parents, as non-gay men and women and
different-sex couples.
133. While children of gay and lesbian parents and same-sex
couples may experience symptoms of stress and other issues
related to their non-traditional family structure, the
available scientific data, studies and clinical experience
presented at trial suggests that children of gay and
lesbian parents and same-sex couples tend to adjust and do
develop-in a normal fashion.
134. Significantly, Defendant has failed to establish a
causal link between allowing same-sex marriage and adverse
effects upon the optimal development of children.
135. As noted herein, there is a benefit to children which
comes from being raised by their mother and father in an
intact and relatively stress-free home.
However, in this case, Defendant has not proved that
allowing same-sex marriage will probably result in
significant differences in the development or outcomes of
children raised by gay or lesbian parents and same-sex
couples, as compared to children raised by different-sex
couples or their biological parents.
In fact, Defendant's expert, Kenneth Pruett, agreed, in
pertinent part, that gay and lesbian parents "are doing a
good job" raising children and, most importantly, "the kids
are turning out just fine."
136. Contrary to Defendant's assertions, if same-sex
marriage is allowed, the children being raised by gay or
lesbian parents and same-sex couples may be assisted,
because they may obtain certain protections and benefits
that come with or become available as a result of marriage.
See Baehr v. Lewin, 74 Haw. 530, 560-561, 852 P.2d 44, 59
(1993), for a list of noteworthy marital rights and
benefits.
137. In Hawaii, and elsewhere, same-sex couples can, and
do, have successful, loving and committed relationships.
138. In Hawaii, and elsewhere, people marry for a variety
of reasons including, but not limited to the following: (1)
having or raising children; (2) stability and commitment;
(3) Pmne1onal closeness (4) intimacy and monogamy; (5) the
establishment of a framework for a long-term relationship;
(6) personal significance; (7) recognition by society; and
(8) certain legal and economic protections, benefits and
obligations. See Baehr v. Lewin, 74 Haw. 530, 560-561, 852
P.2d 44, 59 (1993) for a list of noteworthy marital rights
and benefits.
In Hawaii, and elsewhere. gay men and lesbian women share
this same mix of reasons for wanting to be able to marry.
139. Simply put, Defendant has failed to establish or prove
that the public interest in the well-being of children and
families, or the optimal development of children will be
adversely affected by same-sex marriage.
140. If any of the above findings of fact shall be deemed
conclusions of law, the Court intends that every such
finding shall he construed as a conclusion of law.
CONCLUSIONS OF LAW
1. This Court has jurisdiction over the subject matter and
the parties to this action. Venue is proper in the First
Circuit Court. HRS 603-21.5 and 603-36.
2. The trier of fact determines the credibility of a
witness and the weight to be given to his or her testimony.
In pertinent part, the trier of fact may consider the
--- Maximus 2.02
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays11/
|Date: 07 Jan 97 17:08:18
EID:f55e 22278900
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d21282
>>> Continued from previous message
8. HRS 572-1, on its face and as applied, regulates access
to the status of marriage and its concomitant rights and
benefits on the basis of the applicants' sex. As such, HRS
Sec. 572-1 establishes a sex-based classification. Baehr v.
Lewin, 74 Haw. 530, 572, 852 P.2d 44, 64 (1993).
9. Sex is a "suspect category" for purposes of equal
protection analysis under article I, section 5 of the
Hawaii Constitution. Consequently, HRS 572-1 is subject to
the "strict scrutiny" test. Baehr v. Lewin, 74 Haw. 530,
580, 852 P.2d 44, 67 (1993).
10. Defendant, rather than Plaintiffs, carries a heavy
burden of justification. Nachtwey v. Doi, 59 Haw. 430, 435,
583 P.2d 955, 959 (1978) citing San Antonio School District
v. Rodriquez, 411 U.S. 1, 16-17, 93 S.Ct. 1278, 1288, 36
L.Ed.2d 16, 33 (1973).
11. Specifically, HRS 572-1 is presumed to be
unconstitutional and the burden is on Defendant to show
that the statute's sex-based classification is justified by
compelling state interests and the statute is narrowly
drawn to avoid unnecessary abridgments of constitutional
rights. Baehr v. Lewin, 74 Haw. 530, 583, 852 P.2d 44, 67
(1993), reconsideration and clarification granted in part,
74 Haw. 645, 646, 852 P.2d 74 (1993).
12. Article IV section 1 of the U.S. Constitution provides,
in pertinent part, that all states must recognize the
"public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every
other state."
Whether other states will recognize or avoid recognizing
same-sex marriages which take place in Hawaii and the
consequences to Hawaii residents of other states'
recognition or non-recognition of same-sex marriage (and
all of the rights and benefits associated with marriage) is
an important issue.
However, except for asking the court to take judicial
notice of the Defense of Marriage Act, P.L. 1-4-199
("DOMA"), Defendant introduced little or no other evidence
with regard to this significant issue of comity and
same-sex marriage, conflict-of-laws, and/or the effects, if
any, of the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S.
Constitution.
13. Except for the affidavit testimony of Kenneth K. M.
Ling and Michael L. Meaney, which provided statistical,
budgetary and operational information regarding the Family
Court of the First Circuit Court and the Child Support
Enforcement Agency, State of Hawaii, respectively Defendant
presented little or no other evidence which addressed how
same-sex marriage would adversely affect the public fisc.
Defendant did not offer any testimony which explained the
significance of the above and Defendant did not
specifically explain or establish how same-sex marriage
would adversely impact the Family Court or the Child
Support Enforcement Agency.
14. Defendant presented meager evidence with regard to the
importance of the institution of traditional marriage, the
benefits which that relationship provides to the community
and, most importantly, the adverse effects, if any, which
same-sex marriage would have on the institution of
traditional marriage and how those adverse effects would
impact on the community and society. The evidentiary record
in this case is inadequate to thoughtfully examine and
decide these significant issues.
15. Finally, Defendant's argument that legalized
prostitution, incest and polygamy will occur if same-sex
marriage is allowed disregards existing statutes and
established precedent [for example, State v. Mueller, 66
Haw. 616, 671 P.2d 1351 (1983) (upholding ban on
prostitution)] and the Supreme Court's acknowledgment of
compelling reasons to prevent and prohibit marriage under
circumstances such as incest. Baehr v. Lewin, 74 Haw. 530,
562 n.19, 852 P.2d 44, 59 n.19 (1993).
16. In Dean v. District of Columbia, 653 A.2d 307 (D.C.App.
1995), two homosexual males filed a complaint against the
District of Columbia which sought an injunction to require
the Clerk of the Superior Court to issue them a marriage
license. The trial court granted summary judgment in favor
of the District of Columbia. On appeal, the District of
Columbia Court of Appeals affirmed the trial court's order
granting summary judgment.
In the Dean case, Judge Ferren wrote a lengthy opinion
concurring in part and dissenting in part, and in which the
majority joined in part.
Judge Ferren would have reversed summary judgment and
remanded the case for trial to decide (1) the level of
scrutiny constitutionally required, and (2) whether the
District of Columbia has demonstrated a compelling or
substantial enough governmental interest to justify
--- Maximus 2.02
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Because you like gays12/
|Date: 07 Jan 97 17:08:36
EID:055e 22278900
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d21294
>>> Continued from previous message
As discussed hereinabove, Defendant has failed to present
sufficient credible evidence which demonstrates that the
public interest in the well-being of children and families,
or the optimal development of children would be adversely
affected by same-sex marriage. Nor has Defendant
demonstrated how same-sex marriage would adversely affect
the public fisc, the state interest in assuring recognition
of Hawaii marriages in other states, the institution of
traditional marriage, or any other important public or
governmental interest.
The evidentiary record presented in this case does not
justify the sex-based classification of HRS 572-1.
Therefore, the court specifically finds and concludes, as
a matter of law, that Defendant has failed to sustain his
burden to overcome the presumption that HRS 572-1 is
unconstitutional by demonstrating or proving that the
statute furthers a compelling state interest.
19. Further, even assuming arguendo that Defendant was able
to demonstrate that the sex-based classification of HRS
572-1 is justified because it furthers a compelling state
interest, Defendant has failed to establish that HRS 572-1
is narrowly tailored to avoid unnecessary abridgments of
constitutional rights. Nachtwey v. Doi, 59 Haw. 430, 435,
583 P.2d 955, 958 (1978) (citations omitted) (quoting San
Antonio School District v. Rodriquez, 411 U.S. 1, 16-17, 93
S.Ct. 1278, 1288, 36 L.Ed.2d 16, 33 (1973).
20. If any of the above conclusions of law shall be deemed
findings of fact, the court intends that each such
conclusion be construed as a finding of fact.
21. Based on the foregoing, in accordance with the mandate
of the Hawaii Supreme Court, and applying the law to the
evidence presented at trial, judgment shall be entered in
favor of Plaintiffs Ninia Baehr, Genora Dancel, Tammy
Rodrigues, Antoinette Pregil, Pat Lagon and Joseph Melillo
as follows:
IT IS HEREBY ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED THAT:
1. The sex-based classification in HRS 572-1, on its face
and as applied, is unconstitutional and in violation of the
equal protection clause of article I, section 5 of the
Hawaii Constitution.
2. Defendant Lawrence H. Miike, as Director of Department
of Health, State of Hawaii, and his agents, and any person
in acting in concert with Defendant or claiming by or
through him, is enjoined from denying an application for a
marriage license solely because the applicants are of the
same sex.
3. To the extent permitted by law, costs shall be imposed
against Defendant and awarded in favor of Plaintiffs.
DATED: Honolulu. Hawaii. December 3, 1996.
KEVIN S. C. CHANG
Judge of the Above-Entitled
* SLMR 2.1 * Mud thrown is ground lost.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Pasta, my ass! It's
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:41:00
EID:25c4 22256d20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3eec
On 06-10-96 at 13:38, J.J. HITT wrote to ED MILLS:
JH> On Sep 28 16:19 96, Ed Mills of 1:105/40.762 wrote:
JH> EM> Marriage is an anachronism from which government should be
JH> EM> completely disassociated. The only legal considerations
JH> EM> between couples which should be recognized by government
JH> EM> are contracts signed by both parties. Keep the fucking
JH> EM> ritual shit in church where it belongs.
JH> The issue (as I see it) with homosexual marriages isn't so much
JH> with the government, but the insurance companies. If we had
JH> universal health care coverage under a single payer system, then
JH> 99 percent of the fuss over gay marriages would disappear overnight.
Actually, it's not really. It's got to do with the ancillary
problems of legal recognition and equal treatment of
relationships.
Like the fact there are over 5000 couples separated by
international boundaries due to the fact they live in separate
nations -- (I am one of these couples, over 4 years now)
Like the fact that when one of us gets sick, the other is barred
from being at the other's bedside -- and when we cross state
borders, our durable powers of attorney for medical purposes
instantly are nullified -- (I am one of these couples, with my
partner being denied access to my hospital bed when I was rushed
to an ER last time I was in the US)
Like the fact that if my partner is killed, for example, in an
aeroplane crash, I have no right to sue for wrongful death. My
partner's family can deny me the opportunity to attend the
funeral, if they were so cruel to do that.
Finally, before the law, all our assets are regarded as those of
being owned by two people as strangers. My partner's legal
next-of-kin would have right to challenge and have a substantial
chance of winning a probate challenge.
When my partner dies, I have no right of survivorship for his
social security benefits -- for example.
JH> Oh.. there would still be items to be settled in one way or another,
JH> like inheritance, "community property" (read: D-I-V-O-R-C-E) and the
JH> like; but our fucked up lack of a functioning health care system is
JH> the real heart of the issue.
Actually, JJ, there's at least 200 basic rights of marriage
denied to gay people. There are a plethora more that are not
even given out by the state, but by other institutions.
Rod "... but there is one reason why gay people want to marry
that is the most compelling reason of all -- because it is a
choice, and because of love, and because it's a human right" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Without fools there would be no wisdom.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Re: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 05 Jan 97 13:43:02
EID:e937 22256d60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf3f66
On 07-10-96 at 16:47, KEN WIENS wrote to JASON HARMON:
KW> JH>And I guess no one was expecting in Sodom and Gomorrah either.
KW> Probably not. They had an overabundance of homosexuals there.
I thought it was that overabundance of inhospitality, myself :)
Rod "...so, Ken, tell us what you really think should happen to
gay people, if you had the power to do something to 'solve' that
'problem'?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Famous graffitti: Schroedinger may have been here.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: how
|Date: 05 Jan 97 14:10:04
EID:d274 22257140
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf45bc
On 06-10-96 at 10:50, DAN CEPPA wrote to JESSE JONES:
DC> -> On 10-04-96 06:13, Jesse Jones got back to Sean Mccullough
DC> JJ> Of course God exists. I talk to God, and God talks to me.
DC> Next time you talk to him, ask him what color his hair is.
And ask what his ethnicity is :)
...and if he has a beard....
Rod "... just for fun!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * "Bones! That, feels, wonderful, yes!" "It's head, Jim!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Mike Melia
|Sub: The Lost
|Date: 05 Jan 97 14:28:06
EID:c2c9 22257380
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf49f6
On 07-10-96 at 12:47, MIKE MELIA wrote to ALL:
MM> NEW BIRTH IS THE ONLY ENTRANCE INTO GOD'S SPIRITUAL FAMILY.
Ah, go eat your fucking "born-again" placenta, you dickwad!
Rod "... I love you!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Grayhawk
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 05 Jan 97 14:45:08
EID:75d4 222575a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf4df4
On 10-10-96 at 08:56, GRAYHAWK wrote to GLEN TODD:
GR> I don't think so, Glen. IIRC, The whole mess was started when the "Gay
GR> rights" bill was killedby congess and/or President Clinton. The bill
GR> would have made it illegal for employers to discriminate aginst gays
GR> solely based on their sexual orientation, as well as legalising same-sex
GR> marriages.
Actually, the bill was to outlaw job discrimination (with major
concessions for religious fools to *still discriminate) based on
the sexual orientation of any applicant. This would also have
meant that being not-hired for being straight would also be
protected.
GR> The largest opponents to this bill were (naturally)
GR> Christians, claiming it was "evil" and "immoral". It doesn't surprise
GR> me that it was killed during an election year. The gay lobby, while
GR> strong, is not a large, powerful, or widespread as the bible-thumpers.
This is correct :)
GR> Anyhoo, shortly after that was killed, someone here (maybe Karl?) posted
GR> that he was gonna find out which of "his employees" were Christian and
GR> can them.
... for being heterosexual, of course :)
Rod "...which is completely legal" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Smoke me a kipper skipper, I'll be back for breakfast!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shan'T Receiv
|Date: 05 Jan 97 14:50:10
EID:ab82 22257640
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf4f22
On 10-10-96 at 18:18, JIM STAAL wrote to DAVID RICE:
JS> DR> Did you take "Arrogant insufferal fool" pills this morning?
JS> No prob: there is no life on other planets. If there were, the Bible
JS> would have mentioned it.
Computers don't exist. If they did, the bible would have
mentioned them.
Rod "...watches Jim's computer explode, along with him" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Accept Jesus as my Saviour? Why, that'd be selfish!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 05 Jan 97 14:56:12
EID:ea90 22257700
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf508c
On 28-09-96 at 13:19, GEORGE MOOTH wrote to ALL:
GM> DRIVE THE PIPE DEEPER
Ohhhhh! George... Keep plunging!
GM> MAN HAS NO LACK WHEN GOD IS HIS SUPPLY
God is such a stud! I just love it when he gets his pipe in
deep!
Rod "...are you saving your anal virginity for Jesus?" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * "Bones! That, feels, wonderful, yes!" "It's head, Jim!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 05 Jan 97 14:58:14
EID:ea90 22257740
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32cf5106
On 07-10-96 at 11:18, GEORGE MOOTH wrote to ALL:
GM> A CHRISTIAN LIFESTYLE
Isn't that that sick, child-abusin', wife-enslavin',
slave-ownin', xenophobic, homo-bashin' lifestyle?
How positively wonderful!
Rod "...praise Jesus, and pass the baseball bat!" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * That tagline is *true* ---> <--- That tagline is *false*
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Appleton Sexed
|Date: 06 Jan 97 19:52:16
EID:eda6 22269e80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0e770
On 11-10-96 at 16:00, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
ML> CJ>On 6 Oct 96 09:20am, Laurie Appleton wrote to Karl Schneider:
ML> CJ>KS>> I bet you even fake orgasms.
ML> CJ> LA> My my, you seem to be confused about everything then!
ML> CJ> LA> Isn't that sort of thing the province of females.
Marty: I was just thinking about this.
I can confirm I faked every orgasm with an east-coast Aussie. The warm
yoghurt on his back was...
Rod "...I think I've said enough" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Jesus saves! Krishna invests! Cthulhu forcloses!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Degeneration.
|Date: 06 Jan 97 19:56:18
EID:7465 22269f00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0e862
On 12-10-96 at 07:47, KAREN DAVIS wrote to RICK MCFARLANE:
KD> RM> Read it again. It only says that domestic dogs are capable of
KD> RM> breeding with at least one of the wild species. For all I know,
they
KD> RM> might be
KD> RM> capable of interbreeding with all 8, but I doubt it, and this
KD> RM> particular quote certainly doesn't say that.
KD> As far as I know, it's only 2. Wolves and Coyotes can both breed with
KD> domestic dogs, and I'd have to check about Australian wild dogs.
KD> But coyotes and wolves do not, as far as I know.
I know dingos can interbreed with domestics. Dunno about the
rest.
Rod "...Praise Jesus, and pass me the Azaria" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * A Magick Book that sticks with you: The VELCRONOMICON
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Descended from Monkeys!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 19:57:20
EID:1ce2 22269f20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0e8a0
On 11-10-96 at 14:27, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to SNARL KCHNEIDER:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There's something in the bible about mockery, Laurie. And I
thought you knew your bible.
How patently hateful and attacking. Looks like your ticket to
heaven in your wallet was just replaced with a ticket to hell.
Rod "...I'll see you there, and save a nice trident and devil to
poke your posterior!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Jesus saves! Krishna invests! Cthulhu forcloses!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Disturbingly Successful.
|Date: 06 Jan 97 19:59:22
EID:9499 22269f60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0e91a
On 11-10-96 at 10:57, JOHN MUSSELWHITE wrote to LAURIE APPLETON:
JM> LA> very poorly indeed. No wonder so many different States in
JM> LA> the USA saw the need for "Balanced Treatment"!
JM> I keep telling you that most Americans are incomparably
JM> ignorant, Laurie. Are Aussies that ignorant too or is it just
JM> you?
Just him, Giggles, and some fundie throwbacks. However, they are
rapidly dying off in this "post-Christian" nation.
Rod "...atheists everywhere, I tell you!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Necrotelecomnicon: Book of dead phone numbers.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Don't do your Soviet Blo
|Date: 06 Jan 97 20:02:24
EID:353d 2226a040
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0e9d0
On 12-10-96 at 07:31, MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
ML> MG> You
ML> MG> should breath a sigh of relief.
ML> Not until Aeroflot flight 451 lands and rolls to a stop at
ML> Domodedevo.
I thought they slid the Ilyushin-62s to the gate, you know, after
their undercarriage fails? :) I hear that Aeroflot's pilots are
great at the ol' slide, turn, and gate :)
Rod "...what a flying experience" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * I ain't broke, but I'm badly bent.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Evolution Denied!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 20:03:26
EID:8aad 2226a060
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0ea0e
On 11-10-96 at 14:23, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to RICK MCFARLANE:
LA> RM> Third: No beautiful six sided snowflake could ever form
LA> RM> out of water vapour. (This would be nice - I hate blowing
LA> RM> out my driveway all winter long).
LA> What has a SNOWFLAKE got to do with living things?
Probably more than flouride has to do with haemoglobin! :)
Rod "...touche, Laurie" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Did you expect mere proof to sway my opinion?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Fifteen Judges. 1/
|Date: 06 Jan 97 20:11:28
EID:77ee 2226a160
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0ebf0
On 11-10-96 at 14:35, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to JOHN PREWETT:
LA> LA> As I have already pointed out, when the matter came to an appeal
court
LA> LA> of 15 judges we got a split judgement of 8/7 in favour of the ACLU
and
LA> LA> against the State, which proves beyond doubt that this was NOTHING
LA> LA> like an open and shut matter, as you seem determined to claim.
LA> The following is the statement that I have left on several
LA> occasions;
LA> An Atlanta attorney and Yale Law School graduate and
LA> member of the most prestigious legal organization, the
LA> American Law institute, says;
LA> "Seven of the fifteen judges of the U.S. Court of Appeals
LA> for the Fifth Circuit agreed that the theory of creation is
LA> "scientific evidence" that "has no direct religious
LA> reference whatever, and two of the nine justices of the
LA> U.S. Supreme Court agreed."
LA> (The Origin of Species Revisited, W.R. Bird, 1991, Vol. 1,
LA> p. 6. Reference given to: Aguillard v. Edwards, 778 F.2d
LA> 225, 226, 227 (5th. Cir. 1985)(en banc) (Gee, J.,
LA> dissenting with Clark, C.J., and Reavley, Garwood,
LA> Higginbotham, Hill, and Jones, JJ.). p. 6)
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDWARDS, GOVERNOR OF LOUISIANA, ET AL. v. AGUILLARD ET AL.
No. 85-1513
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
482 U.S. 578; 107 S. Ct. 2573; 1987 U.S. LEXIS 2729; 96 L. Ed. 2d 510; 55
U.S.L.W. 4860
December 10, 1986, Argued
June 19, 1987, Decided
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Supreme Court affirmed the judgment of the court of appeals, which in
turn had affirmed the District Court's decision finding the Louisiana act
unconstitutional.
The decision had Brennan, Marshall, Blackmun, Powell, Stevens, O'Connor,
and White on the majority, with Scalia and Rehnquist dissenting.
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prior History:
Appeal from the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit.
Disposition: 765 F.2d 1251, affirmed.
Syllabus: Louisiana's "Creationism Act" forbids the teaching of the theory
of evolution in public elementary and secondary schools unless accompanied
by instruction in the theory of "creation science." The Act does not
require the teaching of either theory unless the other is taught. It
defines the theories as "the scientific evidences for [creation or
evolution] and inferences from those scientific evidences." Appellees, who
include Louisiana parents, teachers, and religious leaders, challenged the
Act's constitutionality in Federal District Court, seeking an injunction
and declaratory relief. The District Court granted summary judgment to
appellees, holding that the Act violated the Establishment Clause of the
First Amendment. The Court of Appeals affirmed.
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
Held:
1. The Act is facially invalid as violative of the Establishment Clause
of
the First Amendment, because it lacks a clear secular purpose. Pp. 585-594.
(a) The Act does not further its stated secular purpose of "protecting
academic freedom." It does not enhance the freedom of teachers to teach
what they choose and fails to further the goal of "teaching all of the
evidence." Forbidding the teaching of evolution when creation science is
not also taught undermines the provision of a comprehensive scientific
education. Moreover, requiring the teaching of creation science with
evolution does not give schoolteachers a flexibility that they did not
already possess to supplant the present science curriculum with the
presentation of theories, besides evolution, about the origin of life.
Furthermore, the contention that the Act furthers a "basic concept of
fairness" by requiring the teaching of all of the evidence on the subject
is without merit. Indeed, the Act evinces a discriminatory preference for
the teaching of creation science and against the teaching of evolution by
requiring that curriculum guides be developed and resource services
supplied for teaching creationism but not for teaching evolution, by
limiting membership on the resource services panel to "creation
scientists," and by forbidding school boards to discriminate against anyone
who "chooses to be a creation-scientist" or to teach creation science,
while failing to protect those who choose to teach other theories or who
refuse to teach creation science. A law intended to maximize the
comprehensiveness and effectiveness of science instruction would encourage
the teaching of all scientific theories about human origins. Instead, this
Act has the distinctly different purpose of discrediting evolution by
counterbalancing its teaching at every turn with the teaching of
creationism. Pp. 586-589.
(b) The Act impermissibly endorses religion by advancing the religious
belief that a supernatural being created humankind. The legislative history
demonstrates that the term "creation science," as contemplated by the state
legislature, embraces this religious teaching. The Act's primary purpose
was to change the public school science curriculum to provide persuasive
advantage to a particular religious doctrine that rejects the factual basis
of evolution in its entirety. Thus, the Act is designed either to promote
the theory of creation science that embodies a particular religious tenet
or to prohibit the teaching of a scientific theory disfavored by certain
religious sects. In either case, the Act violates the First Amendment. Pp.
589-594. 2. The District Court did not err in granting summary judgment
upon a finding that appellants had failed to raise a genuine issue of
material fact. Appellants relied on the "uncontroverted" affidavits of
scientists, theologians, and an education administrator defining creation
science as "origin through abrupt appearance in complex form" and alleging
that such a viewpoint constitutes a true scientific theory. The District
Court, in its discretion, properly concluded that the postenactment
testimony of these experts concerning the possible technical meanings of
the Act's terms would not illuminate the contemporaneous purpose of the
state legislature when it passed the Act. None of the persons making the
affidavits produced by appellants participated in or contributed to the
enactment of the law. Pp. 594-596.
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
COUNSEL: Wendell R. Bird, Special Assistant Attorney General of Georgia,
argued the cause for appellants. With him on the briefs were A. Morgan
Brian, Jr., and Thomas T. Anderson, Special Assistant Attorneys General,
Kendall L. Vick, and Patricia Nalley Bowers, Assistant Attorney General
of
Louisiana.
Jay Topkis argued the cause for appellees. With him on the brief was John
DiGiulio, Samuel I. Rosenberg, Allen Blumstein, Gerard E. Harper, Jack D.
Novik, Burt Neuborne, Norman Dorsen, John Sexton, and Ron Wilson. *
* Briefs of amici curiae urging reversal were filed for the Catholic League
for Religious and Civil Rights by Steven Frederick McDowell; for the
Christian Legal Society et al. by Michael J. Woodruff, Kimberlee W. Colby,
Samuel E. Ericsson, and Forest D. Montgomery; and for Concerned Women for
America by Michael P. Farris and Jordan W. Lorence.
Briefs of amici curiae urging affirmance were filed for the State of New
York et al. by Robert Abrams, Attorney General of New York, O. Peter
Sherwood, Solicitor General, Paul M. Glickman, Jane Levine, Suzanne Lynn,
and Marla Tepper, Assistant Attorneys General, and Neil F. Hartigan,
Attorney General of Illinois; for the American Association of University
Professors et al. by Ann H. Franke, Jacqueline W. Mintz, and Sheldon E.
Steinbach; for the American Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO, by Bruce A.
Miller and Stuart M. Israel; for the American Jewish Congress et al. by
Marvin E. Frankel, Marc D. Stern, and Ronald A. Krauss; for Americans
United for Separation of Church and State et al. by Lee Boothby, Samuel
Rabinove, Richard T. Foltin, and James M. Parker; for the Anti-Defamation
League of B'nai B'rith et al. by Ruti G. Teitel, Justin J. Finger, Jeffrey
P. Sinensky, and Steven M. Freeman; for the National Academy of Sciences
by
Barry H. Garfinkel and Mark Herlihy; for the New York Committee for Public
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Only those who attempt the absurd achieve the impossible.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Fifteen Judges. 2/
|Date: 06 Jan 97 20:11:30
EID:87ee 2226a160
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0ebf2
>>> Continued from previous message
Education and Religious Liberty by Leo Pfeffer; for People for the American
Way et al. by Timothy B. Dyk, A. Douglas Melamed, and Kerry W. Kircher;
for
the Spartacist League et al. by Rachel H. Wolkenstein; and for 72 Nobel
Laureates et al. by Walter B. Slocombe.
Briefs of amici curiae were filed for the Rabbinical Alliance of America
et
al. by John W. Whitehead and Larry L. Crain; and for Reverend Bill McLean
et al. by Philip E. Kaplan.
JUDGES: Brennan, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Marshall,
Blackmun, Powell, and Stevens, JJ., joined, and in all but Part II of which
O'Connor, J., joined. Powell, J., filed a concurring opinion, in which
O'Connor, J., joined, post, p. 597. White, J., filed an opinion concurring
in the judgment, post, p. 608. Scalia, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in
which Rehnquist, C. J., joined, post, p. 610.
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
* SLMR 2.1 * Only those who attempt the absurd achieve the impossible.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: APPLE(ton's) SOURCE!! 1/
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:04:32
EID:5349 2226a880
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0f860
On 11-10-96 at 18:37, JOHN MUSSELWHITE wrote to LAURIE APPLETON:
JM> LA> Finally, why did we find that in the Supreme court
JM> LA> judgement that;
JM> LA> "The majority opinion expressly reaffirmed that
JM> LA> teachers "already possess" a "flexibility. . . to supplant
JM> LA> the present science curriculum with the presentation of
JM> LA> theories, BESIDES evolution, about the origin of life," and
JM> LA> that teachers are "FREE to teach any and all facets of this
JM> LA> subject" of "ALL scientific theories about the origin of
JM> LA> mankind." (The Origin of Species Revisited, W.R. Bird, 1991,
JM> LA> Vol. 1, p. 9)(emphasis added)
JM> YOU find that in BIRD, not in the Judgement. I doubt the
JM> judgement contains ellipses or all those quotation marks.
That's right.
JM> Bird was a sore loser and you have sympathy for him. Do you
JM> think his ranting has any effect on the real world?
It is ranting. He's completely twisted the Court ruling.
JM> Oh... dumb question. Of COURSE you do! After all, Bird works
JM> for Morris in that license to print money they call the ICR.
That's right.
I have the judgement here:
The words "to supplant the present science curriculum" appear in
the MAJORITY OPINION (by Brennan) which is what Laurie is quoting.
I've reproduced the section of the majority opinion [Section III (A)],
which Bird quotes from:
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDWARDS, GOVERNOR OF LOUISIANA, ET AL. v. AGUILLARD ET AL.
No. 85-1513 SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
482 US 578; 107 SCt 2573; 1987 US LEXIS 2729; 96 L Ed 2d 510; 55 USLW 4860
December 10, 1986, Argued June 19, 1987, Decided
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
OPINION BY: BRENNAN
III A
While the Court is normally deferential to a State's articulation of a
secular purpose, it is required that the statement of such purpose be
sincere and not a sham. See Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S., at 64 (POWELL,
J., concurring); id., at 75 (O'CONNOR, J., concurring in judgment); Stone
v. Graham, supra, at 41; Abington School Dist. v. Schempp, 374 U.S., at
223-224. As JUSTICE O'CONNOR stated in Wallace: "It is not a trivial
matter, however, to require that the legislature manifest a secular purpose
and omit all sectarian endorsements from its laws. That requirement is
precisely tailored to the Establishment Clause's purpose of assuring that
Government not intentionally endorse religion or a religious practice."
472
U.S., at 75 (concurring in judgment). It is clear from the legislative
history that the purpose of the legislative sponsor, Senator Bill Keith,
was to narrow the science curriculum. During the legislative hearings,
Senator Keith stated: "My preference would be that neither [creationism
nor
evolution] be taught." 2 App. E-621. Such a ban on teaching does not
promote -- indeed, it undermines -- the provision of a comprehensive
scientific education.
It is equally clear that requiring +---------------------------------+
schools to teach creation science |Laurie's quote:
|
with evolution does not advance |The majority opinion expressly
|
academic freedom. THE ACT _DOES_NOT_ |reaffirmed the teachers "ALREADY
|
GRANT TEACHERS A FLEXIBILITY THAT |POSSESS" a "FLEXIBILITY (that
|
THEY DID NOT ALREADY POSSESS TO |they did not already possess) TO
|
SUPPLANT THE PRESENT SCIENCE |SUPPLANT THE PRESENCE SCIENCE
|
CURRICULUM WITH THE PRESENTATION |CURRICULUM WITH THE PRESENTATION
|
OF THEORIES, BESIDES EVOLUTION, ABOUT |OF THEORIES, BESIDES EVOLUTION,
|
THE ORIGIN OF LIFE. Indeed, the Court |ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF LIFE"...
|
of Appeals found that no law +---------------------------------+
prohibited Louisiana public school
teachers from teaching any scientific theory. 765 F.2d, at 1257. As the
president of the Louisiana Science Teachers Association testified, "any
scientific concept that's based on established fact can be included in our
curriculum already, and no legislation allowing this is necessary." 2 App.
E-616. The Act provides Louisiana schoolteachers with no new authority.
Thus the stated purpose is not furthered by it.
The Alabama statute held unconstitutional in Wallace v. Jaffree, supra,
is
analogous. In Wallace, the State characterized its new law as one designed
to provide a 1-minute period for meditation. We rejected that stated
purpose as insufficient, because a previously adopted Alabama law already
provided for such a 1-minute period. Thus, in this case, as in Wallace,
"appellants have not identified any secular purpose that was not fully
served by [existing state law] before the enactment of [the statute in
question]." 472 U.S., at 59.
Furthermore, the goal of basic "fairness" is hardly furthered by the Act's
discriminatory preference for the teaching of creation science and against
the teaching of evolution (8). While requiring that curriculum guides be
developed for creation science, the Act says nothing of comparable guides
for evolution. La. Rev. Stat. Ann. @ 17:286.7A (West 1982). Similarly,
resource services are supplied for creation science but not for evolution.
@ 17:286.7B. Only "creation scientists" can serve on the panel that
supplies the resource services. Ibid. The Act forbids school boards to
discriminate against anyone who "chooses to be a creation-scientist" or
to
teach "creationism," but fails to protect those who choose to teach
evolution or any other noncreation science theory, or who refuse to teach
creation science. @ 17:286.4C.
If the Louisiana Legislature's purpose +---------------------------------+
was solely to maximize the comprehen- |Lauries quote (continued):
|
siveness and effectiveness of science |...and that teachers are "FREE
TO|
instruction, it would have encouraged |TEACH ANY AND ALL FACETS OF THIS
|
the teaching of ALL SCIENTIFIC |SUBJECT" of "ALL SCIENTIFIC
|
THEORIES ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF HUMAN- |THEORIES ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF
|
KIND (9). But under the Act's require- |(hu)MANKIND"
|
ments, teachers who were once FREE TO +---------------------------------+
TEACH ANY AND ALL FACETS OF THIS
SUBJECT _ARE_NOW_UNABLE_TO_DO_SO_. Moreover, the Act fails even to ensure
that creation science will be taught, but instead requires the teaching
of
this theory only when the theory of evolution is taught. Thus we agree with
the Court of Appeals' conclusion that the Act does not serve to protect
academic freedom, but has the distinctly different purpose of discrediting
"evolution by counterbalancing its teaching at every turn with the teaching
of creationism . . . ." 765 F.2d, at 1257.
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, back to Laurie's quote. He's stating this:
JM> LA> "The majority opinion expressly reaffirmed that
JM> LA> teachers "already possess" a "flexibility. . . to supplant
JM> LA> the present science curriculum with the presentation of
JM> LA> theories, BESIDES evolution, about the origin of life," and
JM> LA> that teachers are "FREE to teach any and all facets of this
JM> LA> subject" of "ALL scientific theories about the origin of
JM> LA> mankind." (The Origin of Species Revisited, W.R. Bird, 1991,
JM> LA> Vol. 1, p. 9)(emphasis added)
He's stating two things:
1) teachers have the right to supplant science curriculum
and teach what they want about origins.
2) teachers are free to teach any and all facets of "this
subject" (presumably he is referring to creationism)
His first quote is partially accurate, dependant on whether the
you consider Creationism to be science (the supreme court does
not). The second is false. Both have been mangled out of
original wording and minor contexts.
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * Diplomacy: The patriotic art of lying for one's country.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: APPLE(ton's) SOURCE!! 2/
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:04:34
EID:a349 2226a880
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0f862
>>> Continued from previous message
The real context of his two quotes are:
1) The supreme court indeed states that there was nothing
stopping the supplanting of evolutionary theory
with other *SCIENTIFIC* theories -- but in the
context that requiring a teacher to teach creation
IF they teach evolution "does not advance academic
freedom". Further, the supreme court admits that
creationism is only to be taught if evolution is
taught -- there is no compulsion if evolution is
not taught!
2) teachers are *NOT* free to teach all facets and theories
regarding origins under the act. The second part of
his quote about "all scientific theories" is not
describing the freedom of the teachers, but the
criticism of the State of Louisiana's lawmakers
in *LIMITING* the teachings and making teachers
"once free to teach any and all facets of this
subject (are) now unable to do so".
This is an example of Laurie quoting a lawyer who is clearly annoyed
with the fact that he lost the case.
Of course, to top this off, Laurie said that Wendell Bird was quoting
an "Atlanta lawyer". Could Bird be quoting himself?
From the decision, again:
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
COUNSEL: Wendell R. Bird, Special Assistant Attorney General of Georgia,
argued the cause for appellants. With him on the briefs were A. Morgan
Brian, Jr., and Thomas T. Anderson, Special Assistant Attorneys General,
Kendall L. Vick, and Patricia Nalley Bowers, Assistant Attorney General
of
Louisiana.
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't Atlanta in Georgia? A cursory glance at last year's
Olympics will tell you that!
Was Wendell Bird quoting himself Laurie? I think he was.
Rod "...Laurie, your duplicity has been exposed. Leave this
echo." Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Diplomacy: The patriotic art of lying for one's country.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Leftist Minority Groups!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:08:36
EID:935d 2226a900
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0f954
On 12-10-96 at 06:40, DOUG LEE wrote to LAURIE APPLETON:
DL> JM> You're a fucking Australian, Appleton! What the hell do you
DL> JM> care? Or is it that you want to keep Americans stupid so
DL> JM> there will be less competition for your own? Nahhh... you aren't
DL> JM> bright enough for that.
DL> And why aren't fighting for Creationism in your own country
DL> You seem pre-occupied with getting Creationism into the states.
DL> Why is that?
Because he's a lapdog to his US counterparts.... and Australians
think that creationists are jokes :)
Rod "...we're laughing, Laurie" :) Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Christ died for our sins, so let's not disappoint him.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Faq!!!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:31:38
EID:b280 2226abe0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d0feba
On 11-10-96 at 15:03, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to DAN CEPPA:
KS> In all my years and travels, I've *never* met any human as stupid
KS> as Appleliar, nor anyone who enjoyed sitting in their own excrement
KS> for extended periods. Not even babies.
F-A-Q! F-A-Q! F-A-Q!
Rod "...beginning Mexican wave" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Lead me not into temptation. I can find it myself.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Laurie Debunked!!!!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 22:09:40
EID:44e9 2226b120
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d107a4
On 11-10-96 at 14:29, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to DAVE HORN:
LA> DH> and was defeated as an unconstitutional
LA> No, it was defeated by the "smart lawyers" of the ACLU and
LA> NOT by the rightness of their position. With the distinct
LA> possibility that both the judge and the Attorney for the
LA> State were themselves evolutionists, then what else could be
LA> expected!
It was defeated in Federal Court, Appeals Court for the 5th
Circuit, and the Supreme Court. Were they all "evolutionists?"
And you claim the "lawyers for the states" were possibly
evolutionists. And that the case was lost at the Federal Appeals
Court Level because of "evolutionist attorneys for the state".
Why did they lose at the Supreme Court level? Were the attorneys
for the state that time also evolutionists? They lost, didn't they?
As it shows below, from the court records, the arguing lawyer for
the states' at the US Supreme Court was Wendell Bird himself -- a
creationist. Surely if you claim arguing attorney bias influencing
the Court's decisions in the lower court, you must be making
the argument that with a creationist at the helm of the states' case
there'd be a BIG WIN for the creationists.
It was a big loss. I'm still trying to find out if Wendell Bird was
the special prosecutor in the 5th Circuit appeal, therefore debunking
your claim that the 5th Court of Appeal had "evolutionist" attorneys
defending the states' laws.
You claim that the trial at the State level failed because the state's
attorneys were probably "evolutionists"
The fact is that when it got to the Supreme Court, and *CREATIONIST*
Wendell Bird was the one arguing the case, he failed too.
Since Wendell Bird is not one of the "smart lawyers" who is an
"evolutionist", it's nice to know you admit the lawyers for the states
challenging the decision (including Wendell Bird, a person we all
know supports Creationism) are "dumb" by your definition.
Rod "...debunked again, Laurie. How sad!" Swift :)
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cases at the Supreme Court are argued by pre-trial and post-trial
briefs, amici curiae, and one lawyer presenting oral arguments for
a party/parties to a case.
The attorneys and amici curiae filed for the SUPREME COURT TRIAL were:
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARGUING FOR APPELLANT:
----------------------
* WENDELL R BIRD, Special Assistant Attorney General, Georgia
ASSISTING WITH BRIEFS FOR APPELLANT:
------------------------------------
* A MORGAN BRIAN JR, Special Assistant Attorney General, Georgia
* THOMAS T ANDERSON, Special Assistant Attorney General, Georgia
* KENDALL L VICK, Assistant Attorney General, Louisiana
* PATRICIA NALLEY BOWERS, Assistant Attorney General, Louisiana
AMICI CURIAE BRIEFS FILED FOR REVERSAL OF LOWER COURT RULING:
-------------------------------------------------------------
* CATHOLIC LEAGUE FOR RELIGIOUS AND CIVIL RIGHTS (Filed by
Stephen Frederick McDowell)
* CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY et al. (Filed by Michael J Woodruff,
Kimberlee W Colby, Samuel E Ericsson and Forest D Montgomery)
* CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA (Filed by Michael P Farris and
Jordan W Lorence)
ARGUING FOR APPELLEES:
----------------------
* JAY TOPKIS
ASSISTING WITH BRIEF FOR APPELLEES:
-----------------------------------
* JOHN DIGUILO * GERARD E HARPER
* SAMUEL I ROSENBERG * JACK D NOVIK
* ALLEN BLUMSTEIN * BURT NEUBORNE
* NORMAN DORSEN * JOHN SEXTON
* RON WILSON
AMICI CURIAE BRIEFS FILED FOR AFFIRMANCE OF LOWER COURT RULING:
---------------------------------------------------------------
* STATE OF NEW YORK et al. (Filed by Robert Abrams, Attorney
General of New York; O Peter Sherwood, Solicitor General of
Illinois; Paul M Glickman, Jane Levine, Suzanne Lynn and
Marla Tepper, Assistant Attorneys General of Illinois; and
Niel F Hartigan, Attorney General of Illinois)
* THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATIN OF UNIVERSITY PROFESSORS et al. (Filed
by Ann H Franke, Jacqueline W Mintz and Sheldon E Steinbach)
* THE AMERICAN FEDERATINO OF TEACHERS, AFL-CIO (Filed by Bruce A
Miller and Stuart M Israel)
* THE AMERICAN JEWISH CONGRESS et al. (Filed by Marvin E Frankel,
Marc D Stern and Ronald A Krauss)
* AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE et al. (Filed by
Lee Boothby, Samuel Rabinove, Richard T Foltin and James M Parker)
* THE ANTI-DEFAMATINO LEAGUE OF B'NAI B'RITH et al. (Filed by Ruti G
Teitel, Justin J Finger, Jeffrey P Sinesky and Steven M Freeman)
* THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES (Filed by Barry H Garfinkel and
Mark Herlihy)
* THE NEW YORK COMMITTEE FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION AND RELIGIOUS LIBERTY
(Filed by Leo Pfeffer)
* PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY et al. (Filed by Timothy B Dyk, A
Douglas Melamed and Kerry W Kircher)
* THE SPARTACIST LEAGUE et al. (Filed by Rachel H Wolkenstein)
* A GROUP OF 72 NOBEL LAUREATES (Filed by Walter B Slocombe)
OTHER AMICI CURIAE BRIEFS FILED:
--------------------------------
* THE RABBINICAL ALLIANCE OF AMERICA et al. (Filed by John W
Whitehead and Larry L Crain)
* REVEREND BILL MCLEAN et al. (Filed by Philip E Kaplan)
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
* SLMR 2.1 * 1-900-666-0666: Live beasts, one-on-one-pacts, call now!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Smart ACLU Lawyers! 1/
|Date: 06 Jan 97 22:52:42
EID:94d1 2226b680
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d111ba
On 11-10-96 at 14:29, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to DAVE HORN:
LA> An Atlanta attorney and Yale Law School graduate and
----------------
LA> member of the most prestigious legal organization, the
LA> American Law institute, says;
[quote snipped]
LA> (The Origin of Species Revisited, W.R. Bird, 1991, Vol. 1,
----------
LA> p. 6. Reference given to: Aguillard v. Edwards, 778 F.2d
LA> 225, 226, 227 (5th. Cir. 1985)(en banc)
Laurie:
Is this "Atlanta Attorney" Wendell R Bird himself?
I quote from the US Supreme Court Decision in the Aguillard case.
"COUNSEL: Wendell R. Bird, Special Assistant Attorney
General of Georgia, argued the cause for appellants."
Further, just because I like to watch you spin -- you claimed
that the ACLU was the ones arguing this case. Here is the
relevant quote from the opinion of the court, delivered by
Justice Brennan:
Appellees, who include parents of children attending
Louisiana public schools, Louisiana teachers, and
religious leaders, challenged the constitutionality of
the Act in District Court, seeking an injunction and
declaratory relief (2).
And the best bit about this case is that two people who were on
the side of the state in this case, backflipped:
(2) ... The Louisiana Board of Elementary and Secondary
Education, and the Orleans Parish School Board were among
the original defendants in the suit but both later realigned
as plaintiffs.
What a riot... They started jumping ship as soon as the case was
seen as a write-off!
Since I further want to see you spin, let's see what the
District Court judgement (summarised by the Supreme Court)
really says about Evolution and Creationism, huh?
The District Court granted the motion. Aguillard v.
Treen, 634 F.Supp. 426 (ED La. 1985). The court held
that there can be no valid secular reason for prohibiting
the teaching of evolution, a theory historically opposed
by some religious denominations. The court further
concluded that "the teaching of 'creation-science' and
'creationism,' as contemplated by the statute, involves
teaching 'tailored to the principles' of a particular
religious sect or group of sects." Id., at 427 (citing
Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97, 106 (1968)).
The District Court therefore held that the Creationism Act
violated the Establishment Clause either because it
prohibited the teaching of evolution or because it required
the teaching of creation science with the purpose of
advancing a particular religious doctrine.
Then what did the Appeals Court say? Again, the Supreme Court's
opinion states:
The court found that the Louisiana Legislature's actual
intent was "to discredit evolution by counterbalancing its
teaching at every turn with the teaching of creationism, a
religious belief." Ibid. Because the Creationism Act was thus
a law furthering a particular religious belief, the Court of
Appeals held that the Act violated the Establishment Clause.
And the reason why the Supreme Court values academic freedom over
religious indoctrination in Cretinism?
The Court has been particularly vigilant in monitoring
compliance with the Establishment Clause in elementary and
secondary schools. Families entrust public schools with the
education of their children, but condition their trust on the
understanding that the classroom will not purposely be used to
advance religious views that may conflict with the private
beliefs of the student and his or her family. Students in such
institutions are impressionable and their attendance is
involuntary. See, e. g., Grand Rapids School Dist. v. Ball,
473 U.S. 373, 383 (1985); Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 60,
n. 51 (1985); Meek v. Pittenger, 421 U.S. 349, 369 (1975);
Abington School Dist. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 252-253 (1963)
(BRENNAN, J., concurring).
And why the creationists lost this one? Well, because of this!
Note, kids, there's a great list of things you CAN'T do in US
schools in the name of Jeeeeezus! :)
Consequently, the Court has been required often to invalidate
statutes which advance religion in public elementary and
secondary schools. See, e.g., Grand Rapids School Dist. v. Ball,
supra (school district's use of religious school teachers in
public schools); Wallace v. Jaffree, supra (Alabama statute
authorizing moment of silence for school prayer); Stone v.
Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980) (posting copy of Ten Commandments on
public classroom wall); Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97 (1968)
(statute forbidding teaching of evolution); Abington School Dist.
v. Schempp, supra (daily reading of Bible); Engel v. Vitale,
370 U.S. 421, 430 (1962) (recitation of "denominationally
neutral" prayer).
In summary, part V of the opinion of the court, it clearly states:
The Louisiana Creationism Act advances a religious doctrine
by requiring either the banishment of the theory of evolution
from public school classrooms or the presentation of a religious
viewpoint that rejects evolution in its entirety. The Act violates
the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment because it seeks
to employ the symbolic and financial support of government to
achieve a religious purpose. The judgment of the Court of Appeals
therefore is Affirmed.
And you claim that there was no religion behind this bill,
Laurie?:
Besides Senator Keith, several of the most vocal legislators
also revealed their religious motives for supporting the bill in
the official legislative history. See, e. g., id., at E-441, E-443
(Sen. Saunders noting that bill was amended so that teachers could
refer to the Bible and other religious texts to support the
creation-science theory); 2 App. E-561 -- E-562, E-610 (Rep.
Jenkins contending that the existence of God was a scientific fact).
See, e. g., 1 App. E-74 -- E-75 (noting that evolution is contrary
to his family's religious beliefs); id., at E-313 (contending that
evolution advances religions contrary to his own); id., at E-357
(stating that evolution is "almost a religion" to science teachers);
id., at E-418 (arguing that evolution is cornerstone of some
religions contrary to his own); 2 App. E-763 -- E-764 (author of
model bill, from which Act is derived, sent copy of the model bill
to Senator Keith and advised that "I view this whole battle as one
between God and anti-God forces . . . . If evolution is permitted
to continue . . . it will continue to be made to appear that a
Supreme Being is unnecessary . . .").
>>> Continued to next message
* SLMR 2.1 * The universe's most common elements: Hydrogen & Stupidity
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Smart ACLU Lawyers! 2/
|Date: 06 Jan 97 22:52:44
EID:64d1 2226b680
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d111bc
>>> Continued from previous message
The experts, who were relied upon by the sponsor of the bill and
the legislation's other supporters, testified that creation
science embodies the religious view that there is a supernatural
creator of the universe. See, supra, at 591-592.
And note that last line of that second paragraph... The author of a
*model bill* that was sent to Senator Keith. This conclusively proves
that the bill was authored by those outside the legislature -- something
Laurie has denied all along!
Justice Powell, in his CONCURRING OPINION, elucidates more on
the court's view on creation as a science. Justice O'Connor concurs:
The "doctrine or theory of creation" is commonly defined as
"holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world
were created by a transcendent God out of nothing." Webster's
Third New International Dictionary 532 (unabridged 1981).
"Evolution" is defined as "the theory that the various types of
animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types,
the distinguishable differences being due to modifications in
successive generations." Id., at 789. Thus, the Balanced Treatment
Act mandates that public schools present the scientific evidence to
support a theory of divine creation whenever they present the
scientific evidence to support the theory of evolution. "Concepts
concerning God or a supreme being of some sort are manifestly
religious . . . . These concepts do not shed that religiosity
merely because they are presented as a philosophy or as a science."
Malnak v. Yogi, 440 F.Supp. 1284, 1322 (NJ 1977), aff'd per curiam,
592 F.2d 197 (CA3 1979). From the face of the statute, a purpose to
advance a religious belief is apparent.
But the best part is that Justice Powell describes the
machinations of the Cretin-Lobbyists:
In June 1980, Senator Bill Keith introduced Senate Bill 956 in
the Louisiana Legislature. The stated purpose of the bill was to
"assure academic freedom by requiring the teaching of the theory
of creation ex nihilo in all public schools where the theory of
evolution is taught."
While a Senate committee was studying scientific creationism,
Senator Keith introduced a second draft of the bill, requiring
balanced treatment of "evolution-science" and "creation-science."
Id., at E-108.
Significantly, the model Act on which the Keith bill relied was
also the basis for a similar statute in Arkansas. See McLean v.
Arkansas Board of Education, 529 F.Supp. 1255 (ED Ark. 1982).
So not only is a model bill handed to Senator Keith, it was one
presented to the Arkansas legislators! That's TWO state
legislature examples of listening to creation-lobbyists.
But more from the good Justice:
The complaint in McLean was filed on May 27, 1981. On May 28,
the Louisiana Senate committee amended the Keith bill to delete
the illustrative list of scientific evidences.
That is, to remove the problems that the McLean bill had in
Arkansas. It continues:
The legislature then held hearings on the amended bill that
became the Balanced Treatment Act under review. The principal
creation scientist to testify in support of the Act was Dr.
Edward Boudreaux. He did not elaborate on the nature of creation
science except to indicate that the "scientific evidences" of the
theory are "the objective information of science [that] point[s]
to conditions of a creator." 2 id., at E-501 -- E-502. He further
testified that the recognized creation scientists in the United
States, who "numbe[r] something like a thousand [and] who hold
doctorate and masters degrees in all areas of science," are
affiliated with either or both the Institute for Creation Research
and the Creation Research Society. Id., at E-503 -- E-504.
Information on both of these organizations is part of the
legislative history, and a review of their goals and activities
sheds light on the nature of creation science as it was presented
to, and understood by, the Louisiana Legislature.
The Institute for Creation Research is an affiliate of the
Christian Heritage College in San Diego, California. The Institute
was established to address the "urgent need for our nation to
return to belief in a personal, omnipotent Creator, who has a
purpose for His creation and to whom all people must eventually
give account." 1 id., at E-197. A goal of the Institute is "a
revival of belief in special creation as the true explanation of
the origin of the world." Therefore, the Institute currently is
working on the "development of new methods for teaching scientific
creationism in public schools." Id., at E-197 -- E-199.
The Creation Research Society (CRS) is located in Ann Arbor,
Michigan. A member must subscribe to the following statement of
belief: "The Bible is the written word of God, and because it is
inspired throughout, all of its assertions are historically and
scientifically true." 2 id., at E-583. To study creation science at
the CRS, a member must accept "that the account of origins in Genesis
is a factual presentation of simple historical truth." Ibid (3).
You've just been debunked, many times...
Rod "...take a powder, Laurie!" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * The universe's most common elements: Hydrogen & Stupidity
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Laurie'S 15 Judges!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 23:05:46
EID:5eb8 2226b8a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d114ca
On 11-10-96 at 14:35, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to JOHN PREWETT:
LA> As I have already pointed out, when the matter came to an appeal court
LA> of 15 judges we got a split judgement of 8/7 in favour of the ACLU and
LA> against the State, which proves beyond doubt that this was NOTHING
LA> like an open and shut matter, as you seem determined to claim.
Actually, you're wrong, Laurie, there were ONLY 3 judges hearing
the case at the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.
Further, the 15 judges was an appeal for rehearing. The appeal
was denied 8-7, and the 7 justices didn't vote for creationism,
as it states below. The 7 voted to rehear the case to hear
*criticism* of the construction of the statute, which had not
been heard at the Appeals Court level.
You've been debunked again.
I quote from Justice WHITE of the US Supreme Court, in Edwards et al
v Aguillard et al (85-1513) in his CONCURRING OPINION, and I've
capitalised the sections you require. My comment is in [...]:
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDWARDS, GOVERNOR OF LOUISIANA, ET AL. v. AGUILLARD ET AL.
No. 85-1513
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
JUSTICE WHITE, concurring in the judgment.
...the District Judge, relying on the terms of the Act, discerned
its purpose to be the furtherance of a religious belief, and a panel
of the Court of Appeals agreed. OF THOSE FOUR JUDGES [District judge,
and three Court of Appeals judges], two are Louisianians. I would
accept this view of the statute. Even if as an original matter I
might have arrived at a different conclusion based on a reading of
the statute and the record before us, I cannot say that the two
courts below are so plainly wrong that they should be reversed.
Rehearing en banc was denied by an 8-7 vote, the dissenters expressing
their disagreement with the panel decision. THE DISAGREEMENT, HOWEVER,
WAS OVER THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE LOUISIANA STATUTE...
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
* SLMR 2.1 * Death is life's answer to the question "Why?"
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Legislating Morality
|Date: 07 Jan 97 18:19:00
EID:895a 22279260
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d22314
On 10-10-96 at 22:11, DAVE HAMILTON wrote to KEN WIENS:
DH> BF>> I believe the context is that you can't -successfully- legislate
DH> BF>> morality. Governments will occasionally try, and fall on their
faces.
DH> BF>> Can you name one -successful- law that legislated morality?
DH> KW> Sure. The most recent example perhaps is the US Government
stand
DH> KW> on the issue of gay marriages (including Clinton). It sends a
DH> KW> very clear message that such marriages are morally wrong and
DH> KW> rightfully against the law.
DH> And how effective has it been? How many fewer gays are there? How
DH> many fewer gay relationships?
Moreover, if gay and lesbian people are allowed the equality to
enter into legal marriages (they've been entering into religious
marriages for years), are all the heterosexuals immediately going
divorce and run off with someone of the same sex, Kenbozo!?!?
DH> Do you ever go outside your house other than to go to church?
He probably goes outside from time to time to get the mail...
possibly.
Rod "...but then again, he might not!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * That tagline is *true* ---> <--- That tagline is *false*
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Legislating Morality
|Date: 07 Jan 97 18:20:02
EID:c998 22279280
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d22352
On 10-10-96 at 17:23, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN WIENS:
KD> KW> Sure. The most recent example perhaps is the US Government
stand
KD> KW> on the issue of gay marriages (including Clinton). It sends
a
KD> KW> very clear message that such marriages are morally wrong and
KD> KW> rightfully against the law.
KD> No, they have [incorrectly] stated that they will not grant them the
KD> right to marry. No moral judgement.
That's right. This is a denial of a legal right. Gay people can
get married ceremonially in many churches :)
KD> They are wrong to discriminate in a government contract.
100% correct. In my last packet, I uploaded all of Chang's
decision indeed claiming that there was discrimination.
Rod "...founder of the Equal Marriage Rights Home Page" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Death is life's answer to the question "Why?"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: meteorologists, even
|Date: 07 Jan 97 18:21:04
EID:1d36 222792a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d22390
On 12-10-96 at 17:01, ROBERT CURRY wrote to KEN WIENS:
RC> On (07 Oct 96) Ken Wiens wrote to Shelby Sherman...
RC> KW> I have some of the greatest scientists in the world on
RC> KW> my side on this one.
RC> Ah, more personal friends of yours whose names you can't provide?
Maybe they had harddrive crashes, and are too busy fixing their
computers to hand out business cards?
Rod "...yes, I'll take an FAQ nomination on that one :)" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Phone now! 1-900-TEDDY4U -- Let teddy tempt you!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Quentin Fai
|Sub: Re: execute her ?
|Date: 07 Jan 97 18:24:06
EID:e15f 22279300
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d22446
On 10-10-96 at 19:00, QUENTIN FAI wrote to KEN WIENS:
QF> While enjoying a farm-fresh prarie squid, Ken said:
QF> KW> This just shows you up for the amoral, immoral heathen you
QF> KW> really are. "Lets be sure to kill off as many of the unborn
QF> KW> as we possibly can. If anyone says it is immoral and worthy
QF> KW> of the death penalty lets call names."
QF> Check out the website www.paranoia.com/coe, if you think that *we* actively
QF> encourage abortion.
That's the church of euthanasia...
The page at http://www.paranoia.com/~wcs is "Why Christians
Suck". Another good page :)
Rod "...your friendly neighbourhood Netscape Bookmarker" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Fundamentalist: (n) Ape-like creature with a Bible.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jack P Sargeant
|Sub: 01:Just Say No To Klinto
|Date: 07 Jan 97 18:30:08
EID:6328 222793c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d225b0
On 08-10-96 at 17:16, JACK P SARGEANT wrote to J.J. HITT:
JPS> JH> DA> 18. First priority of his first week in office: gays in the
JPS> JH> DA> military.
JPS> JH> You have a problem with this?
JPS> I do!
JPS> ...Now picture the troops as all being male on both sides. The troops
JPS> containing gays would be at a disadvantage, because they would
JPS> hesitate to shoot at the young, good looking men on the other side.
JPS> ...And that doesn't even take into consideration the discomfort
JPS> the fellow "straight" troops may feel in the presense of homosexuals.
JPS> The discomfort could lead to distraction. If I were in a foxhole
JPS> with a gay, I wouldn't want his hand on my leg while I was aiming
JPS> at the enemy.
Many armies in this world have no problems with servicemembers
being of any sexual orientation. Australian Armed Services is
just one example...
So your argument that eliminating gays from the military is
false. In combined operations, you may have a gay soldier from
another military force next to you.
Rod "...or did you forget that? :)" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Christ died for our sins, so let's not disappoint him.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Law Subverted.
|Date: 07 Jan 97 19:11:10
EID:8232 22279960
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d22f4e
On 14-10-96 at 11:45, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
LA> LA> Why did the 15 Judge Appeal court - which may also have
LA> LA>been mostly evolutionists too - divide 8/7 on the matter?
LA> KS> You lying ****, you have been apprised of this lie and continue
LA> KS> to use it.
LA> On the contrary I have written documentation in a book by
LA> a Legal man with high qualifications who says;
LA> "In fact, the U.S. Court of Appeals split narrowly on
LA> those issues (eight to seven), with the seven dissenting
LA> judges concluding firmly that balanced treatment "does not
LA> infringe the constitution," that "evolution is not
LA> established fact and that there is strong evidence that life
LA> and the universe came about in a different manner" in the
LA> view of many scientists, and that the theory of creation is
LA> "scientific evidence . . . for the sudden appearance of
LA> highly developed forms of life."
LA> (The Origin of Species Revisited, W.R. Bird, 1991, Vol. 1,
LA> p. 9)
That you are lying again astounds me. As I have quoted before,
the 8/7 decision to DENY a rehearing at the Appeals Court level
was a decision en banc, and the 7 dissenters dissented because
they wanted to send it BACK to the appeals court to investigate
the bill's construction, and NOT because of what you say above:
Rehearing en banc was denied by an 8-7 vote, the
dissenters expressing their disagreement with the panel
decision. The disagreement, however, was over the
construction of the Louisiana statute, particularly the
assessment of its purpose...
-- Quoted from Edwards v Aguillard, US Supreme
Court case 85-1513, Concurring Opinion by Powell)
As for the rest of your quote, it's not present in the Supreme
Court's ruling or opinions. So I will make no comment at this
time.
Rod "...but you're debunked" Swift.
* SLMR 2.1 * Hey fundie! Why can't your mind be as open as your mouth?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Those 15 judges.
|Date: 07 Jan 97 19:33:12
EID:2e32 22279c20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d23478
On 12-10-96 at 21:26, J.J. HITT wrote to JOHN MUSSELWHITE:
JH> On Sep 29 11:22 96, John Musselwhite of 1:134/67 wrote:
JH> JM> Genetic technology is so common now that you can buy a
JH> JM> writing pen which has your DNA imprinted in the ink. Future
JH> JM> generations can tell precisely that something purporting to
JH> JM> come from your pen literally came from YOUR pen.
JH> Neat!
JH> Where can I get one and how much do they cost?
I can see this technology being *really useful* to stop fraud and
the like!
Rod "...and won't it piss off the Christers to be forced to put
their DNA into a database :) :) 666" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * The real world is a special case.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Descended from Monkeys!
|Date: 07 Jan 97 20:58:14
EID:ef3c 2227a740
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d24866
On 17-10-96 at 10:24, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to RICHARD SMITH:
KS> RS> It's Richard again: I was just wondering if everyone that
KS> RS> comes from the land of the Southern Cross is buttfucking
KS> RS> stupid as this . . . look at Athony Giger-Snot, for example
KS> RS> . . . .
Richard: I'm guilty of the verb, but not of the noun... :)
Rod "...I'm not stupid :)" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Nuke a gay Jesus for the baby whales.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Hey babe!
|Date: 07 Jan 97 21:01:16
EID:6221 2227a820
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d2491c
On 18-10-96 at 11:49, RICHARD SMITH wrote to SHELBY SHERMAN:
RS> SS> 16 Oct 96 23:08, quoting Spam to Laurie Appleton:
RS> S> Can you post that naked UUE of yourself again? I missed it.
RS> S> I hope you have big hooters!
RS> SS> Uh, Mr. Hormel, Laurie is of the male gender.
RS> Oh yeah? Prove it. Consider: the only source we have for
RS> Laurie's gender is Laurie hirself. And you KNOW how honest
RS> Laurie is, don'tcha?
Richard, as I said, I will provide a more detailed run down of
Laurie's stats when I can, including an occupation and gender,
when I can.
From all Australian fido sources, he's male :)
Rod "...the rest, that's tomorrow's work!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Nuke a godless homeless commie gay baby whale for Christ!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Laurie's deception
|Date: 07 Jan 97 21:15:18
EID:e96a 2227a9e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d24c66
On 19-10-96 at 08:58, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to JOHN MUSSELWHITE:
LA> Fancy you forgetting so soon. Here it is again!; An
LA> Atlanta attorney and Yale Law School graduate and member of
LA> the most prestigious legal organization, the American Law
LA> institute, says;
LA> "Seven of the fifteen judges of the U.S. Court of Appeals
LA> for the Fifth Circuit agreed that the theory of creation is
LA> "scientific evidence" that "has no direct religious
LA> reference whatever, and two of the nine justices of the
LA> U.S. Supreme Court agreed."
Wrong! From the US Supreme Court concurring opinions in Edwards
v Aguillard:
Rehearing en banc was denied by an 8-7 vote, the dissenters
expressing their disagreement with the panel decision. The
disagreement, however, was over the construction of the
Louisiana statute, particularly the assessment of its purpose,
and offers no justification for departing from the usual rule
counseling against de novo constructions of state statutes.
The seven dissenters didn't vote to rehear the case because of
any validity of creationism, but because of "THE CONSTRUCTIN OF
THE LOUISIANA STATUTE, PARTICULARLY THE ASSESSMENT OF ITS PURPOSE".
You lied, Laurie.
You've been debunked
Rod "...now go away!" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * Participate in Throw a Christian to the Lions Year 1997!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Creationist Lawyers
|Date: 07 Jan 97 21:25:20
EID:43bd 2227ab20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d24ec0
On 19-10-96 at 09:06, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
LA> If you had any intelligence at all you should have been
LA> able to WIN all that decade of debates instead of having to
LA> constantly make silly excuses for your hopeless efforts!
From memory, hasn't the creationists lost each and every case
during the 1970-1997 period in the courts?
Surely if the creationists "had any intelligence at all" they
"should have been able to winn all that decade of" court "debates
instead of having to constantly make silly excuses for" their
"hopeless efforts".
You're debunked.
Rod "...we love you Laurie" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Don't believe in miracles, expect them.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Dumb lawyers!
|Date: 07 Jan 97 21:26:22
EID:9e56 2227ab40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d24efe
On 19-10-96 at 09:06, LAURIE APPLETON wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER:
LA> So instead of achieving your desired goals on the basis of
LA> good science and democratic processes, you have to do it by
LA> "snowing" the probably already biased judges, using a team
LA> of smart lawyers...
... in the game of law, there are rules of jurisprudence. I'm
sure that any third-rate lawyer would be able to see a
miscarriage of justice and call it.
It's wonderful how you keep inferring that the lawyers for the
Creationists are dumb. What would your most worshipped lawyer --
Wendell Bird -- say about that?
We still love you, Laurie, but...
Rod "...you're debunked again!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: World wide flood! [1/
|Date: 07 Jan 97 21:30:24
EID:bc6f 2227abc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d24ff0
On 20-10-96 at 10:10, DOUG SCHWANDT wrote to KAREN DAVIS:
DS> Just like science can't explain the appearance of marsupials in
DS> Australia and nowhere else. (Of course, the fossil record only
DS> shows teeth, beaks, bones and claws. Pouches would t end NOT to
DS> be preserved.)
Read a good science text on marsupials and monotremes. You will
also find, further, that marsupials are not exclusive to
Australia :) Looked in South America recently?
Can you explain the biodiversity of New Zealand? The Moa? The
Kiwi?
Rod "...come back with some answers :)" Swift
* SLMR 2.1 * If Jesus loves me, why does he never send flowers?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Spam
|Sub: I'm in 100th Trimester!
|Date: 07 Jan 97 21:44:26
EID:9e79 2227ad80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d2533a
On 17-10-96 at 18:49, SPAM wrote to KEN WIENS:
SP> KW> Ah, and we have another murderer of countless unborn
SP> KW> children! Imagine, a murderer attempting to evaluate
SP> KW> who is beneath contempt!
SP> The only problem I have with legalized abortion, it is not
SP> retroactive so we could back up and abort your silly ass.
Why is there a problem? Can't we legalise (KensAge*4)+3
Trimester Abortions?
Rod "...in his 100th Trimester Right Now!" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * God is watching me? What is he, a pervert?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Legislating Morality
|Date: 07 Jan 97 22:18:28
EID:a8a4 2227b240
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d25b34
On 16-10-96 at 14:34, KEN WIENS wrote to KAREN DAVIS:
KW> KD>No, they have [incorrectly] stated that they will not grant them
the
KW> KD>right to marry. No moral judgement.
KW> It is a moral judgment. Anyone who thinks the moral factor
KW> was not in the minds of the governmental representatives
KW> who voted on this is very mistaken.
If it was a defense of marriage act, why didn't they pass a ban
on no-fault divorce, instead of eliminating the possibility for
ANY person to select a partner from about 50% of the populace?
KW> KD>They are wrong to discriminate in a government contract.
KW> It is not discrimination. It is legislation against making
KW> legal a very filthy, immoral sexual practice.
Actually, it is discrimination. Sex discrimination. A man
cannot do what a woman can do -- marry a man. All people,
straight, gay, bi, whatever, are denied from marrying someone of
the same sex.
Removing this sex-discriminate requirement on marriage is equal
rights for all, because anyone of any sex (regardless of sexual
orientation) could enter into a marriage. Just because
heterosexuals are unlikely to enter into marriage is irrelevant.
Rod "...the arguments mirror Loving v Virginia (1967 Supreme
Court) identically." Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Laugh and the world thinks you're an idiot.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Legislating Morality
|Date: 07 Jan 97 22:19:30
EID:3003 2227b260
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d25b72
On 17-10-96 at 01:39, RICHARD SMITH wrote to KEN WIENS:
RS> O dan blangroen Duw
RS> nid oes Ken, Dave, na Legislating Morality . . .
RS> DH>And how effective has it been? How many fewer
RS> DH>gays are there? How many fewer gay relationships?
RS> KW> It has been very effective. If any gay couples attempt to get
RS> KW> married they are do so illegaly. If a minister attempts to
RS> KW> marry them it is also illegal.
RS> I happen to be a priest, FYI, and I would gladly marry any
RS> couple that requested it that were not already married.
RS> FYI. Now scorn me, bigot.
Despite what Ken says, members of the same sex have been getting
wedded for YEARS.
I use the distinction wedding to refer to ceremonial marriage
rites, and marriage to be the civilly constructed marriage
contract before the law.
Rod "... it is the second that couples like Christopher and I
seek..." Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Easter is cancelled this year. They've found the body.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Erik Vandervort
|Sub: Legislating Morality
|Date: 07 Jan 97 22:20:32
EID:ab80 2227b280
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d25bb0
On 18-10-96 at 17:30, ERIK VANDERVORT wrote to KEN WIENS:
EV> KW> It has been very effective. If any gay couples attempt to get
EV> KW> married they are do so illegaly. If a minister attempts to
EV> KW> marry them it is also illegal.
EV> not illegal, you fucking moron. merely not legally recognized. also,
EV> blatant and obvious discrimination.
Correct, and correct.
But don't worry. In a previous post, I quoted the WHOLE decision
in Baehr v Miike (Circuit Court ruling from December 3, 1996) for
his benefit.
Maybe he'll understand.
Rod "...but highly unlikely" Swift :)
* SLMR 2.1 * Give Christians Prozac, not Government Office!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: Perth Omen BBS -- FASTER LIVE InterNet (+619) 244 2111 (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Legislating Morality
|Date: 07 Jan 97 22:26:34
EID:c998 2227b340
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 32d25d1a
On 18-10-96 at 18:03, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN WIENS:
KD> On (12 Oct 96) Ken Wiens wrote to Grayhawk...
KD> KW> It is very successfully legislated morality. I agree mixed motives
KD> KW> on the part of politicians.
KD> No, it is not.
KD> People still divorce.
KD> People still are unfaithful.
KD> People still live together outside of marriage.
KD> It doesn't look like limiting thee marriage contract to 2 opposite sex
KD> individuals has worked to defend morality.
No. It doesn't. And here's the real joke. Rep Bob Barr (R-GA)
was the person who introduced this bill. He's onto his THIRD
WIFE.
If he was surely supporting defending marriage, he'd do something
like outlaw no-fault divorce.
Could we call him a hypocrite? A legislator who can't hold his
own marriages together claims to speak for the morality and
sanctity and *AUTHORITY* to say what is and is not a marriage.
What a fucking joke, eh?
KD> Now here's the kicker - I believe the contract of marriage should be
KD> opened up to any combination and number of competent adults. Guess what?
KD> I've been happily married for 7 years to a wonderful MAN, and not likely
KD> to be unfaithful to him with either gender.
Congratulations, Karen.
Christopher and I are starting our FIFTH year in our
relationship. We live 12,000km apart. Of course, Ken's probably
one of those whiners who says: "But homosexuals have equal rights
already. They have the right to live their lives together".
Rod "...well, Ken, I can't live with my partner. My partner is
denied thousands of rights because we can't marry. I can start
by listing about 200 major ones if you like, Kenny!" Swift :(
*I* don't need a strict
KD> definition of marriage to keep my own strong. Are Christian marriages
so
KD> weak that they do?
KD> I take responsibility for my own marriage. The existence of others that
KD> are different or that fail does not impact me, just like the rules at
my
KD> best friend's house when I was a child did not impact the rules at my
KD> home.
KD> KW> I embrace hatred of sinful practices. Homosexual practice is
a
KD> KW> sin according to the Bible.
KD> It could be a sacrament to other religions. In fact, let me check with
KD> my Wiccan contacts - sexuality in and of itself could be seen as a
KD> sacrament by many of them.
KD> YOU believe it is wrong. That's fine. Then don't do it. Should be easy
KD> enough.
KD> ... Any job worth doing is worth complaining about.
KD> --- PPoint 2.00
KD> * Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212 )
* SLMR 2.1 * Windows isn't crippleware. It's functionally challenged.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Scientific theories.
|Date: 09 Jan 97 20:08:00
EID:667f 2229a100
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2d5996f2
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Marilyn.
RM> Find just ONE such specimen, and you would falsify evolution.
RM> And you know that is the case. But you continue to lie about
RM> evolution being unfalsifiable.
RM> Shame.
MB> If The Flood really happened, we'd have fossils of EVERYTHING,
MB> including humans in one strata. That WOULD be an interesting
MB> find, and Laurie could retire in luxury after showing it to
MB> the press, I'm sure.
He'd be a hero to all those Creationists out there. But it ain't gonna
happen, for two reasons. First, such a stratum doesn't exist, and second,
even if it did exist, Laurie would actually have to LOOK for it
himself. Unless that stratum exists between the pages of his Revised Quote
Book, he ain't gonna find it.
But thanks for the reply. It's nice to know that someone is reading these
posts. It certainly appears that Laurie doesn't read them.
Take care.
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08a26 (VC) (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: 2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 08 Jan 97 16:43:00
EID:4473 22288560
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to Roger Hunter <=-
GTP> I've been a distributor a couple time before (I really do like some
of
GTP> the products) before and I always told 'em upfront that's what I wanted
GTP> to do. They always pushed me to do the phone thing and lie to my
GTP> friends. Not THIS little black duck.
Me neither. I also found I couldn't sell water in the desert. If you
ever want to do it again for personal use, I'll be glad to sign you
up.
GTP> Oh, that was probably just in the heat of wanting to hit David over
GTP> the head. I am personally comfortable with my weight. I feel
that
GTP> if you don't like the way I look, don't look.
I wish I could get that attitude. I'm around 250 lb and I don't like it
but of course, I -do- like to eat.
GTP> No, I haven't. But I think all forms of divination, meditation,
GTP> astral projection, etc are merely ways of accessing things not
GTP> available at a conscious level. I really am skeptic. Take empathy.
GTP> Now, I know I am empathic, but I've never seen that as a 'mystical'
GTP> thing. The more I look at it, the more I am inclined to believe it
is
GTP> merely hypersensitivity to body language and smell. I think I "smell"
GTP> a person getting angry or sad, not that I mystically "sense" it. I
GTP> don't know. Still working on it.
Exactly. The professional "psychic" is usually very good at reading
body language and pumping her clients for information unobtrusively.
... A feature is a bug with seniority.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CONSTANTS
|Date: 08 Jan 97 16:48:00
EID:043b 22288600
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Then the only values possible are the ones that allow intelligent
AS> life--? Which is basically saying that the universe MUST allow
AS> intelligent life...? That seems to strengthen my argument, really.
Not at all. It just says we are here because we CAN be, nothing
more. That's why I expect life to be fairly common in the
Universe. Intelligent life is rare here, let alone elsewhere.
AS> What would really refute it is to find a broad range of constants
AS> would result in intelligent life. After reading THE ANTHROPIC
AS> COSMOLOGICAL PRINCIPLE, do you think that is the case? (But
No. But I still don't see design.
AS> contrariwise, it doesn't mean that design is the ONLY explanation. I
AS> can think of five...which includes the above "our values may be the
AS> only ones possible". Or rather, George Ellis could think of five, and
AS> evaluated each in turn, in BEFORE THE BEGINNING. It still, to me,
AS> comfortably covers all the options.)
Haven't read that one yet.
... A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 08 Jan 97 16:53:00
EID:03a5 222886a0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Not necessarily. It may be like telling a fetus that there is a life
AS> beyond the womb. They think of it only in terms of the life they
AS> knew, and be ignorant of the possibilities out there.
I still like my maggot theory. Fits the facts better .
RH> I asked my wife how she could be happy in Heaven, knowing I was
RH> burning in Hell.
AS> Oooohhhh. THAT's a rough question.
My specialty!
RH> Her answer was that she would not remember me. Now, since we have
AS> What???? Where does she get that?
It's logical. She would not be happy knowing I was burning. She
HAS to be happy in Heaven. ERGO, she cannot know I am burning.
But, knowing me, she knows I'm burning. So, she cannot remember me.
RH> been married twice as long as she was single, she's going to wander
RH> around Heaven wondering just who the Hell she IS.
AS> Do I get the odd feeling she puts a lot of presure on you to join the
AS> church...?
She used to, but has generally resigned herself to spending
eternity without me.
... Not tonight, dear. I have a modem.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: SUPERSTION
|Date: 08 Jan 97 16:57:00
EID:e8a7 22288720
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Why so? How many poisons kill instantly, particularly when
RH> swallowed?
I wish I had not said that!
AS> It's not that. It's the fact that it simulated death to the point
AS> that it fooled Roman Centurions, who were probably as familiar with
AS> corpses as the average undertaker.
Yeah, I realised that as soon as I posted the other message.
Still, it was late and the spear pretty well settled things, even
if he wasn't -quite- dead....
... Beer nuts are $1.29; deer nuts are under a buck...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE REAL WORLD
|Date: 08 Jan 97 16:59:00
EID:5c4f 22288760
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
AS> Primarily. But then, even nongenetic defects take up resources that
AS> the ablebodied could use better. I do NOT want them eliminated, nor
do
AS> most people here. I find that interesting.
It's the same reflex that attracts us to puppies and infants. We have
to have it or few of the little monsters would survive a year.
... The floggings will continue until morale improves.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 08 Jan 97 17:10:00
EID:7895 22288940
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Jason Harmon <=-
JH> Once again, didn't God send his son with the intention that he
JH> would die?
AS> Aren't we all sent here with the knowledge that we will die? Does
AS> that mean we should praise those who speed it up, like murderers?
Beneath you, Al. You evaded the question. Jesus was sent here expressly
to die in that manner. Judas did not hasten anything; he played a
vital and necessary role. Furthermore, Jesus knew he would do it
and even told him to get on with it. If Judas had openly declared his
intentions the other 11 would have stopped him.
... Sorry, the Dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: DANDER RAISING
|Date: 08 Jan 97 17:20:00
EID:a10c 22288a80
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to David Worrell <=-
DW> The female impersonator? Yep, I just found out she was actually Jimmy
DW> Swaggart in drag.
GTP> I'm surprised you figured it out. I didn't think you knew the
GTP> difference between the sexes yet.
Sauce for the gander, eh Gwenny?
Go for it!
... "Milhouse, we live in the age of cooties!" - Bart Simpson
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: IN PASSING
|Date: 08 Jan 97 17:32:00
EID:7856 22288c00
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Name one pattern. Per your claim.
RC> A trivial task. The number pi, when squared and multiplied by the
RC> smallest perfect number (namely, 6), contains within it neither
RC> more nor less than the exact sum of all the reciprocal square numbers.
RC> A fascinating pattern, indeed, though not the only one.
But that's a perfect example of intelligent design! Such a
thing could NEVER have happened by chance!
The odds against it are astronomical!
Convert while you can!
... He who dies with the most TAGLINES wins!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: freedom and life
|Date: 09 Jan 97 18:48:35
EID:3d84 22299600
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 79675a8c
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d1b5f3
On (06 Jan 97) Al Schroeder babbled to ROBERT CURRY...
RC> So according to your belief, your god doesn't PERSONALY do the
RC> dirty work of raping and torturing children.
AS> Or condone it or approve it.
AS> Yeppers.
RC> How holy and godly it must be to wash one's hands of it while
RC> sitting back, watching it all happen without doing anything effective
RC> to help.
AS> Golgotha. Jesus with the nails driven through the bone. A Man in
AS> agony for all men, and women.
AS> But hey..."What have you done for us LATELY?"
AS> We stab each other, rape each other, kill each other, and blame God.
AS> How about blaming humanity?
You're conveniently forgetting all the times he told his followers
to rape, burn, kill, etc. in the OT, and the times he did a bit of
drowning and burning entirely on his own, aren't you.
... Mythos has a purpose. Religion has an agenda.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: MIRACLE [1/2] [1]
|Date: 09 Jan 97 21:27:02
EID:483b 2229ab60
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 1a196e90
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d31287
On (07 Jan 97) Al Schroeder babbled to Sue Armstrong...
SA> note of something, but haven't been taught the "proper" word
SA> for it, they'll make a sign of their own. And even after 20
SA> or 30 years of field study, we still know very little about
SA> the natural signs that chimps in the wild use amongst each
SA> other.
AS> True. But is there any reason to think they use any sign
AS> language at all, as opposed to simple body language.
Body language IS sign language.
... HolySmoke: A head-on collision on the Information Superhighway.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ...
|Date: 09 Jan 97 21:38:06
EID:1818 2229acc0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 f478a0e2
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d44ec7
AS> Well, Lotto machines have a bunch of people praying to win.
AS> You got a lot of competition...I don't see anything wrong
AS> with God sometimes granting what you pray for, as long as you
AS> realize He has to take all the consequences into
AS> account...and not expect miracles. I don't expect God to put
AS> aside all the laws of nature He has constructed for anything
AS> but the greatest of reasons.
Your rhetoric doesn't line up with what we have in writing.
It sez: "Ask and ye shall receive."
Can't think of any statement less ambiguous than THAT.
... Sentimental??? No, I said you are semi-mental!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Domino
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: WiCCA
|Date: 09 Jan 97 15:31:49
EID:f2e8 22297be0
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2d554c61
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d42869
PID: timEd-B11
Dan, having seen Gwenny during his little streak, remarked:
DC> All you had to do was ask! And, yes, seeing a familiar name makes the
GtP> See, and you thought I didn't have a life outside HolySmoke.
DC> You mean you do?
Obviously she does, if I recognized her the first time I looked into HS.
Abreq ad Hƒbra
Domino
---
* Origin: Clockwork BBS, Covington TN, (901)475-1195 (1:123/531)
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|From: Domino
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 09 Jan 97 17:43:12
EID:d630 22298d60
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2d575bb0
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d4177
PID: timEd-B11
Fredric, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:
dom> Fundies will do anything to make sure their precious
dom> little illusions arent shattered by something different
dom> walking in the door, eh?
FR> I wonder if that was the person's problem -- it was
FR> "disruptive" to her, no doubt, and not to anyone else.
FR> Someone else wondered whether it was believed to be
FR> "Satanic" by a teacher or something.
I wear my (pagan) church's t-shirt (just a regular tshirt, deep green, with
the logo in white) at my school, and make no attempt to cover up the pentagram
in the center of it. I wear my hair down to the middle of my back (my nick
doesnt really show gender. I'm a guy.), I wear my black outfit once in a
while, and I'll even paint my nails black once in a while. It has yet to
cause a major "disturbance". Of course, there was the odd redneck or two
that made comments about my sexuality, but that can hardly be called disruptive,
as
it doesnt affect the operation of the school or its students.
FR> Bizarre behavior, really... tossing someone out of school
FR> due to the color of her lipstick. As if the public
FR> education system wasn't already a mess.
Imagine what would have happened if it wasnt lipstick -- if she had a birthmark
or whatever on her lips alone, making them look black? Think they'd kick
her out then?
And yeah, the public education system is a huge mess. I'm rather ashamed
to say I'm from a country that thinks they've got it good.
Abreq ad Hƒbra
Domino
---
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|From: Domino
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 09 Jan 97 17:49:54
EID:d630 22298e20
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2d575bb2
PID: timEd-B11
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d4189
Fredric, having seen Gwenny during his little streak, remarked:
gtp> If he looked at it right, they actually be giving her a
gtp> chance to get a real one. Locally, we had an honour
gtp> student expelled for giving another girl Pamprin. Stupid,
gtp> stupid people.
FR> What _IS_ it with these people these days?!
We had a student expelled because he used the word "fuck" in front of a
teacher. His exact words were "fucking bathroom"; it wasn't even used as
an insult to anyone.
Of course, they were looking for a reason to expel him anyway; he had already
taken the Memphis police force and the tv police drama show Top Cops on
a high-speed chase in a stolen Mustang. He was like 15 at the time. (And,
actually, he comes from a white upper-middle-class family, so noone can
apply a stereotype.)
But that's beside the point. It was stupid to expel him for a word. ;)
Abreq ad Hƒbra
Domino
---
* Origin: Clockwork BBS, Covington TN, (901)475-1195 (1:123/531)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Tiger Eyes
|Sub: GET SPECIFIC
|Date: 09 Jan 97 09:14:00
EID:2024 222949c0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32D50D09
TE>DW> You mean like those that commit emotional abuse?
TE>You would know a