God Damned Fundies!
|From: Glen Todd
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 11 Jan 97 13:20:42
EID:e0c5 222b6a80
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32d793d1
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d6c372
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, Al Schroeder!
Friday January 10 1997 15:18, Al Schroeder wrote to Ronald Vass:
AS> Communication; the Bible; think about it.
Oxymoron.
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
From Angle-land to far Vinland the raven banners fly!
... "Change is inevitable." -- Disraeli
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Faith is wishing not to know what is true. (FidoNet 1:128/203)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Dander raising
|Date: 11 Jan 97 13:23:08
EID:ba1e 222b6ae0
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32d794ad
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1caf9921
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, ROBERT CURRY!
Friday January 10 1997 03:42, ROBERT CURRY wrote to GLEN TODD:
MB>> Isn't there something in POLICY 4 about being excessively
MB>> annoying?
GT>> Styx, you paying attention?
RC> Don't forget the other half -- about not being so easily annoyed.
_I'm_ not annoyed -- I'm laughing. I just wanted to know if Styx was paying
attention.
MB>> I've just now twitted him.
GT>> I'm contemplating doing likwise.
RC> Only AFTER whining to the moderator? Are you trying to be excessively
RC> annoying?
Some people say that I'm _very_ trying. I do my best.
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
From Angle-land to far Vinland the raven banners fly!
... My God, he spaced the teddy bear!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Visualize the post-Christian era. (FidoNet 1:128/203)
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|From: Glen Todd
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 11 Jan 97 13:25:12
EID:01b2 222b6b20
MSGID: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32d79513
REPLY: 1:207/212 3048396d
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8271
Heilsa, Karen Davis!
While idly toying with a yellow silk scarf, Glen Todd overheard Karen Davis
whisper furtively to Jim Staal something about jesus needed...:
KD> The model for our creator should not exclude half of the human beings
on
KD> earth.
Any religion which excludes the Goddess is half atheistic. {I've forgotten
who said this, but I agree.}
Ves thu heil,
Glen Todd
American Thuggee Militia
KALI WANTS YOU!
... Never invoke anything that you don't know how to banish.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: American Thuggee Militia -- Knot a Problem (FidoNet 1:128/203)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: All
|Sub: Miracle on Jan 4
|Date: 11 Jan 97 14:43:06
EID:1201 222b7560
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d7ef131
Hello All!
Did you all see it: On Jan-04-97 George the Mooth actually
replied to 4 msgs from Rod Swift, and they sat right inside
a run of his usual unsolicited rubbish, so it was not a fake.
Here is one of them (just in case you missed out)
QUOTE:
> Date : Jan 04 '97, 12:33
> From : George Mooth 1:2285/100
> To : Rod Swift
> Subj : Our Daily Bread
>
> GM> THE ONLY WAY TO BE RIGHT
> GM> IS TO AGREE WITH GOD WHEN HE SAYS WE'RE WRONG.
>
> RS>Isn't that mental enslavery, Moothy?
>
> We are all in mental salavery. You just have to choose who you want
> to be the slave of. You choose Satan and all the sick immoral posts
> you put in here. Satan uses you every day in this conference. Talk
> about mental slavery - He's got you!
>
> ð Geo ð
> gmooth@sprynet.com
>
> 1st 2.00 #1855 + God's baud rate is ..
>
> --- PCBoard (R) v15.21/10
> Origin: After Five; BBS Elkhart In. 219-262-1370 10 gig (1:2285/100)
UNQUOTE
Now how come he only wants to speak to Australians and the
rest of us get ignored? I am also in the Southern hemisphere
but I am obviously not good enough
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:06:55
EID:5a05 222b78c0
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d7ef132
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 737b5fa1
Hello J.J.!
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to David Worrell:
JJH> Royal Flush "My hard drive crashed."
JJH> Five of a Kind I'm not at all sure, but we'll see one
JJH> before too much more time passes.
I like them all :-)
The last one surely comes under the more miraculous stuff,
like when Jesse Jones makes his triumphant re-entry in HS
as a born-once-again-Buddhist.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SUPERSTION
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:40:03
EID:fda1 222b7d00
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d7ef133
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A6DAC4B
Hello Judith!
Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to Al Schroeder:
AS> It's not that. It's the fact that it simulated death to the point
AS> that it fooled Roman Centurions, who were probably as familiar with
JB> Al, try this on for size...Jesus was really twins.
Already old news... Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas make this
claim in "The Hiram Key", c1996 ISBN 0 7126 8579 0.
The name Jesus/Yahoshua is interpreted as "savior" and not seen
as the actual name of the man who was crucified.
The man's twin was Thomas, again not a name but a reference to
being a twin.
Further interesting information about this rather unfortunate
family:
James the Just's real name was Jaakov, but even he went under
the classification of 'Jesus'. All the brothers were members
of the Nasorean sect, ie the Essenes or Qumran sect which
awaited a real-life overthrow of an 'ungodly' government and
new-world order according to the Law of Moses. The first
born was seen as 'the royal or worldly Messiah' and therefore
described as 'Yahoshua Bar Adam' (Jesus, son of Man), while
Jaakov was seen as 'the priestly Messiah' and described as
'Yahoshua Bar Abba' (Jesus, son of the Father (God)).
Pilate's trial of both brothers shows which of these men
was most respected by the people, thus Barabba(s) went home
and Baradam was executed (and perhaps some guys confused
poor old Thomas with the dead man).
Later Saul of Tarsus hijacked the story, changed things a
bit around, downgraded Jaakov in favor of Peter, and
generally made a mockery of reality. No wonder the Qumram
community called him "The Spouter of Lies".
Interesting yarn, ehh?
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Gnat and abortion
|Date: 11 Jan 97 18:27:55
EID:ca0d 222b9360
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d7ef136
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A6DAC4C
Hello Judith!
Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to All:
JB> The study was done in Denmark (where, I gather, abortion has
JB> always been legal) on 1.5 million women born between 1935
JB> and 1970, on the correlation of abortion to increased risk
JB> of breast cancer.
Abortion as a procedure has been legal in most Western countries,
in cases of rape, incest, and to save the mother's life. Abortion
on demand was, however, NOT legal in Denmark - at least not up
to 1965 when I left. A woman seeking an abortion had to apply
to an state institution named "Mothers Help". There she would be
evaluated by social workers and psychiatrists to determine
whether there were medical or social reasons to grant her wish.
"Social reasons" were mainly considered: underage pregnancies,
too many children already, poverty, depression, very low IQ.
The women who got a NO to abortion were offered support in
the form of residence in a "preggers home", free hospitalization
for the birth, and immediate placement of the baby in a state
orphanage for adoption.
Not quite as free and easy as you might have imagined, but
still some kind of solution. I know these facts as my
sister-in-law worked as a social worker for "Mothers Help"
back in the 60es.
Of course most women who already knew they would get a NO
simply went to a "liberal gynecologist" (and there were
many of them) who provided a small D&C in the office,
went home, waited 2 hours, and called an ambulance. The
hospitals then routinely took care of the rest under the
heading "spontaneous miscarriage".
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Millennium Lunacy
|Date: 11 Jan 97 19:01:21
EID:2adb 222b9820
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2d7ef137
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A6CFC27
Hello Judith!
Judith Bandsma wrote in a message to Brian Shreve:
-=> Brian Shreve spoke thusly to Ric Carter <=-
BS> itself, when 1600 turned to 1700 and 1700 turns to 1800 (etc etc)
BS> there was the SAME ol millennium madness. It is NOTHING new, not
JB> And we might get an extra year of peace if the stupid
JB> fundies would learn to count. There was no year 0.
JB> Therefore, the 21st century doesn't begin until Jan. 1,
JB> 2001.
Yes, and BTW I think Brian has confused millennium with
century. Oh well...
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Satan
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE - we're all gonna die!
|Date: 10 Jan 97 10:34:11
EID:7315 222a5440
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 c7c28a4b
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d415b
Wasn't it 08 Jan 97 when "Fredric Rice" wrote to "Steve Quarrella"?
So, Fredric... you said...
FR> As I recall Martin Reily made some comment about shutting-up
FR> HolySmoke.
sq> He backed off of his Fundamentalism after he bought a TV and
sq> his "church friends" rejected him.
FR> Yes, I recall that he started making noises about not being a
FR> Christian any more. I wonder if any of us helped him escape
FR> or whether it was (as is often the case) fellow Christians
FR> which inadvertantly helped him.
sq> I almost felt sorry for the guy, because he was a textbook
sq> example of the recipient of Fundamentalist Christian love: We
sq> love you only so long as you're a bee in the hive. If you
sq> aren't, fuck you, you're "of Satan." "Salvation for Sale,"
sq> "The Mind of the Bible Believer," and "Holy Terror" all share
sq> similar stories of Fundies who have been cast into the
sq> proverbial lake of fire by their ex-mates.
FR> I never knew anything about this television thing. Was he
FR> told that he couldn't have a television? Does his entire cult
FR> fraction dictate that?
Martin Riley used to be very active in the local net (134). Sadly,
we've seen little of him lately. Apparently he now prefers to play
on the Internet...
He was a hard-case Christian who had come to the faith through a
crisis. He used to run that Maranantha Net.
It was weird when, one day, his attitude changed. He had been put
through a crisis by his own congregation. He had bought his family
a TV and the entire congregation ostracized him and family members
as a result. It hurt him a great deal, and through that hurt he
revealed a side which was a little easier to accept.
He didn't feel that he had lost faith in Jesus Christ. He felt he
had lost faith in the church he was attending. Certainly, his
attitude was a bit less fervent despite his insistence that he still
retained his relationship with Jesus Christ.
We were very amused when he invited Us out for a beer or two :-)
We did not go :-(
Martin did get a little closer to reality through all of that. He
gave up the Net he was running due to some other matters (another
local religious idiot spent a great deal of time and effort writing
Netmail posts which amounted to vicious back-stabbing). He became
less likely to use Christian rhetoric to support his arguments. He
became easier going and still felt he had faith in his God. He felt
he was no longer a Christian, but We did point out that he still
retained the flavour despite his loss of fellowship.
From the quill of Satan...
... A man with a gun is safer than a man with a bible and a gun.
--- PPoint 2.02
* Origin: Satan challenges God to show His face! (1:134/67.666)
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Jesse's last lament
|Date: 10 Jan 97 21:07:19
EID:e111 222aa8e0
DAVID RICE, bereft (missing the last plane out of Tokyo), said to FREDRIC
RICE
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Steve Quarrella <=-
>>FR> Oh Jesse, we're all so scared that
>>FR> our gods will team up with Wonder Woman to smite
>>FR> us all! <-snort-> I mean, what if we're wrong
>>FR> and Wonder Woman actually _does_ exist?
>SQ> I'll be -running- to join THAT church!
FR> As would many of us. }:-}
DR> RUNNING to join? No. On my knees crawling, sure.
UP on your elbows, Boyhim...
... "Oedipus, you put me down! I'll poke your eyes out." - Crow
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.30
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time (1:106/113.0)
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: The Alignment List
|Date: 11 Jan 97 07:17:39
EID:123a 222b3a20
Dan Ceppa, bereft (missing the last plane out of Tokyo), said to J.J. Hitt
DC> ! Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
Currently, the submarine division...
... Atheists don't go door-to-door to tell people to believe science.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.30
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time (1:106/113.0)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: *CR* CAT POOP COOKIES
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:21:18
EID:0ace 222b7aa0
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 8 Jan 97 11:23am, DAN CEPPA wrote to GWENNY THE POOH:
DC> Gwenny, I think it was you that was looking for this!
DC> Enjoy!
->> Re: *CR* Cat Poop Cookies
Reminds me of the recipe I have for Kitty Litter Cake..
Becke
... "IT FOUND ME!" -- Campus Crusade for Cthulhu.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 53
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: RE: BLACK LIPSTICK
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:21:18
EID:5a43 222b7aa0
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 8 Jan 97 09:44pm, DAMIEN WELLMAN wrote to FREDRIC RICE:
DW> This would be something that happened in my local area. The school
in
DW> question has a very hazy rule about prohibiting "disruptive" behaviour
DW> or dress. The student in question was wearing black lipstick (which
DW> seems to be a current fad nationwide), a teacher claimed that the
DW> lipstick violated this rule and called in the principal to expel her.
DW> The school was sued over it, mainly because the rule was so vague that
DW> there was too much room for inconsistancy in enforcing it. The student
DW> was allowed back in school, but her parents transferred her to a
DW> different school anyhow. The general opinion locally is that the
DW> school administrators are a bunch of idiots for expelling the girl.
They EXPELLED her for wearing black lipstick? Sheesh, when I was in high
school, the worst you got when you broke the dress code (holes in the ass
of
your pants, or wearing a tee-shirt w/ profanity or such) was a couple of
days
of detention...
Becke
... Anger not a Redhead, for thou would make a silly trophy on the wall.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 54
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: RE: CHEESE WHIZ ON TOAST
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:21:19
EID:1e5a 222b7aa0
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 8 Jan 97 01:20pm, FREDRIC RICE wrote to NATE COOKSON:
NC>> Unlike a organ removed durning a operation, the fetus will become a
NC>> human.. It has everything it needs to grow and be born...
FR> No, your masters are lying to you. Most pregnacies spontaneously abort
FR> even before the woman knows that she's preggers.
One out of three pregnancies, if I remember correctly...
Becke
... Dragons aren't extinct, they just have redheads protecting them .
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 54
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: RE: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:21:19
EID:5e5b 222b7aa0
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 8 Jan 97 01:41pm, FREDRIC RICE wrote to STEVE QUARRELLA:
FR> I wonder if any of them realize that boycotts work both ways.
FR> Christianic zealots which include a fish symbol probably don't even
FR> consider the possibility that non-Christians give their shops a miss.
Reminds me of a used car dealership called "Car Circus" that we have here
in
Harrisburg. The sign changes weekly--I believe last weeks was "Jesus is
Lord". ;)
Becke
... I'm Dyslexsic of Borg. Prepare to have your ass laminated.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 54
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: RE: FALSE CHRISTIAN SCUM
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:21:20
EID:d7d7 222b7aa0
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 9 Jan 97 01:41pm, GWENNY THE POOH wrote to RONALD VASS:
RV>> Here.....little girl, hold this can of gas, while i strike up
RV>> a match to toss into the flames. Goddess Gwen, now they
RV>> will be tossing the darts at you.
GT> Oh well, time to get out the brass bra. Actually only David and
JJ
GT> are fussing about it. Becke and Sue either took in stride or haven't
GT> gotten it yet. At least, we're all still talking to each other
on
GT> IRC.
Frankly, I agree with you..I'm tired of it all. I'm just sitting back and
waiting for it all to pass over. It's not worth the time or energy.
Becke
... I am never led astray, I just choose the path of least morality.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 54
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Christian Hedemark
|Sub: RE: HYPOCRITICAL PEOPLE
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:21:20
EID:50fc 222b7aa0
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 9 Jan 97 06:26am, CHRISTIAN HEDEMARK wrote to JONATHAN FINGAS:
CH> God (the Father) wan't too opposed to striking people dead. After all,
CH> He does hate sin. Sometimes He waits for natural biological death,
CH> before judging us. In the Old Test. we see Him judging earlier than
CH> that. Even in the N.T., we have some people being struck dead for
CH> simply telling a lie. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nice God you got there...and you expect us to worship this bastard??
Becke
... If the fundies won't be there, hell can't be that bad!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 54
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: MASTURBATION
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:21:21
EID:5f6e 222b7aa0
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 9 Jan 97 09:43am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to GWENNY THE POOH:
GtP>> I have no problem with masturbation. I never had. I could never
GtP>> understand what the problem is.
AS> Well, for males, one must be careful not to leave stains on things...
That's what towels are made for, Al..;)
Becke
... *- If God is omnipotent, why does he need my money ?
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 54
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: RE: PLASTIC SURGERY
|Date: 11 Jan 97 15:21:17
EID:b5e2 222b7aa0
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 7 Jan 97 02:00am, DAVID WORRELL wrote to DOUG LEE:
DW> 06 Jan 97 10:33, Doug Lee wrote to All:
DL>> I just saw a comercial on TV where they were advertising nose jobs
and
DL>> breast enhancments for, get this, " No money down. Pay no interest
DL>> for.." I missed for how long.
DW> There's a local finance company that specializes in cosmetic surgery.
DW> Sad, ain't it?
You think that's bad?? I was checking the bartering bulletin board on an
Internet site, and there was an offer there--the lady was apparently a
personal trainer, and was willing to offer her services for those of a
plastic surgeon..
Becke
... *- The symbol of christianity is the founder killing himself. Think
a
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 53
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- ProBoard v2.15 [Reg]
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Leonard Bernier
|To: All
|Sub: JEREMIAH 31:15 / Matthew 2:16
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:48:00
EID:3cbc 222b5e00
PID: PDQMail v2.60 RE0333
PRAISE GOD !
PROPHECY - Herod will kill the children.
Thus says the Lord, "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation are bitter
weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children, she refuses to be compforted
for her children, because they are no more."
FULFILLMENT: Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he
became very enraged, and send and slew all the children who in
Bethlehemand in all its environs, from two years old and under, according
to the time which he had ascertained from the magi.
Wise mem came from the east and told Herod that a new king has been born,
this one to rule the Jews. Politically, Herod could not afford another
uprising in the lands he oversew for Rome, and the title, KING OF THE
JEWS, was at the moment his. So, not knowing the exact identity of the
newborn King, he decreed that all babies two old and younger should be
slaughtered in the desperate hope that by doing so the infant King would
be among those killed.
Jesus Saves North Bay, ONT.
--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
* Origin: Far Point Station (1:225/364)
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 11 Jan 97 16:52:26
EID:1aac 222b8680
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32d80b9a
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A6BE5FF
JF> kill the target of their wrath. Can't these people see what they're
JF> doing? Can't anyone?
JB> You have to remember, these people will tell you in no uncertain terms
JB> that they are pro-LIFE.
True, they're pro-life - but apparently for only some of it. Why don't
these people then protest peacefully and donate to charities?
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: BitByters BBS, Rockland ON, Can. (613)446-7773 v34, (1:163/215)
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 11 Jan 97 16:54:54
EID:fb75 222b86c0
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32d80c2e
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d4199
FR> While I haven't seen any of that I can say that murder
FR> has been and continues to be a very large part of
FR> Christian ideology. If history teaches us anything it
FR> is that Christianity has been and continues to be a
FR> deadly set of ideologies -- deadly for fellow believers
FR> and for innocent people alike.
FR> That Christians would like to see a murderer killed is
FR> in keeping with the faith. (And Islamic faith, I will
FR> add.)
Murder isn't part of the Christian faith! Jesus taught non-violence and
tolerance. The fault lies more in that people have let power and emotion
override the teachings.
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: BitByters BBS, Rockland ON, Can. (613)446-7773 v34, (1:163/215)
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 11 Jan 97 17:01:04
EID:3df7 222b8820
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32d80da0
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d59a2b
DC> The problem is that they don't understand that there is only
DC> one individual that is involved in the decision: The woman.
True. But don't forget, not all abortions are because the woman doesn't
feel like having the kid. Too often the parents are outraged and insist
that the baby be aborted; also the climate into which the baby might be
born (extreme poverty, violence) might be fatal for it. There have even
been a few cases in which keeping the baby would have killed either the
mother, the baby, or both.
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: BitByters BBS, Rockland ON, Can. (613)446-7773 v34, (1:163/215)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Evolution
|Date: 11 Jan 97 19:47:38
EID:b32b 222b9de0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7ee87
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
FWDFROM Martin Eble
FWDORIG 1:152/62
FWDTO Ron Stringfellow
FWDSUBJ Evolution
FWDAREA R_CATHOLIC
FWDMSGID 1:152/62.0 67dac02d
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
=============================================================================
* Forwarded by Steve Quarrella (1:124/9005)
* Area : R_CATHOLIC (Roman Catholic Question and Answer Forum)
* From : Martin Eble, 1:152/62 (Mercurii dies January 08 1997 07:36)
* To : Ron Stringfellow
* Subj : Evolution
=============================================================================
Ron Stringfellow:
Martin Eble:
RS> Yes, you are right of course. It also says it is a belief
RS> that goes contrary to the Word of God.
That's a ridiculous statement on its face. The Bible does not
purport to be a scientific document or textbook.
ME>> Let's use some common sense here Ron.
ME>> Why in the heck do think you're entitled to decide what
ME>> methods and processes God ought to use to do as He wishes?
RS> First and foremost He states through His OWN WORDS as
RS> inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Through human authors to a human audience whose limits are
recognized in the text. He does not explicate atomic theory, the
true nature of the solar system, or describe antibiotics because
they are not relevant to the religious purpose of the text.
RS> Let's cut to the chase here Martin. Do you believe these
RS> words:
RS> "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
RS> breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became
RS> a living soul."
Sure. God created our universe out of nothing, and He acted
(formed) in that creation (the dust of the ground) in a
particular way to create man (breathed into his nostrils) with an
immortal soul (a living soul). That is the truth communicated.
RS> That is pretty descriptive. As descriptive as a sovereign God
RS> need to get for His subjects anyway.
Certainly if I was a nomad living 4,000 years ago it would
communicate to me the important truth that God created us.
As a 20th century American I do understand what the nomad did
not, that the description may not be literal.
RS>> This is the same cop-out used by pentecostals when asked
RS>> how God uses charlatans in these supposed healings.
ME>> It's not a cop-out to point out that there's fossil records
ME>> and other evidence of a much longer past than anything in
ME>> the Bible,
RS> Oh? Have you now become the infallibe interpreter of the
RS> Word?
No, have you? You seem to think you've got the inside track, the
true version, the only guide to God's meaning.
ME>> Not necessarily in the same way that *you* accept it.
RS> You have to reconcile the differences somehow, I choose to
RS> err, if I must, on the side of God the Creator, not a process
RS> that eliminates one brick at a time the possibility of God.
That you seem to think it eliminates the possibility of God is a
commentary on your limited perspective rather than any
theological problem with evolution as a theory. The nomad in the
desert is not holier than the scientist in the desert simply
because he is more ignorant.
In tackling the problem, your choice to "reconcile the
differences" with a sword to the Gordion knot has the virtue of
simplicity, but nothing else.
ME>> If we dispensed tommorrow with everything not in the Bible,
ME>> the machine age would conclude, medicine would return to
ME>> hopes and guesses, and we'd believe the Earth was the center
ME>> of the Universe.
RS> Non-sequitur.
Do you understand what the Latin term "non sequitur" means? It
means "it does not follow".
It does not follow that because the creation accounts in the Old
Testament do not include a scientific treatise on evolution that
evolution is void as a theory.
It does follow that were all things not included in the Bible
dispensed with, the machine age would conclude, medicine would
return to hopes and guesses, and the Earth would be believed to
be the center of the Universe.
I am more than pleased to wish you well in your belief; I
similarly indicate that the notion that your literal
interpretation will gain little adherence among those who are
well-educated and non-obdurate.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
# GT 19.00 # Religions change; beer and wine remain. -Harvey Allen
-+- GTMail 1.25
+ Origin: The Western Dominican - (503) 343-3825 (1:152/62.0)
=============================================================================
Salue, Marty!
D‚j… vu, man!
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: RIC CARTER
|Sub: Atheist Taglines
|Date: 11 Jan 97 19:56:10
EID:8fce 222b9f00
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f086
REPLY: 1:2002/2002 d949e832
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, RIC!
Lunae dies January 06 1997, Dixit RIC CARTER ad ALL:
.N>> Post a selection of the less well circulated ones, I'm always
.N>> interested in how the other half lives.
RC> last changed: 17.6.1996 e.v.
I found my "'God told me' is no excuse for stupidity" out on someone's web
site a while back. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: FAQ!
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:05:48
EID:348f 222ba0a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f2c3
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d16b3c
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, DAVID!
DR>> watching the show. I found (and find) Loni Anderson very
DR>> ugly. Jan Smithers was vastly more appealing.
I'm not turned off by Loni Anderson, but I'll join you in the Jan Smithers
fan club. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:36:44
EID:4ab4 222b5c80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 7388f3c3
On Jan 04 12:33 97, George Mooth of 1:2285/100 wrote:
GM> We are all in mental salavery.
Brain spit?
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Domino
|To: Leonard Bernier
|Sub: You really want eternal life?
|Date: 11 Jan 97 09:15:02
EID:439f 222b49e0
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2d79f372
PID: timEd-B11
Leonard, having seen Paul during his little streak, remarked:
LB> PRAISE GOD !
LB> "For God so loved the woved the world that He gave His only
LB> begotten Son, that who ever believes in HIM / HER should not
LB> perish but have everlasting life.
LB> Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will
LB> you from the the hour of trial which shall come upon the
LB> whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev.
LB> 3:10)
Strange, because even the saved die. Everlasting "life" in heaven doesnt
count.
LB> Jesus Saves North Bay, ONT.
But does he *recycle* ?
Abreq ad Hƒbra
Domino
---
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Heathens
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:06:20
EID:d55e 222ba0c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f34b
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d16c20
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Dan!
Lunae dies January 06 1997, Dixit Dan Ceppa ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> "And bear it." :) I'm having some problems with a serial port over
on
SQ>> the 486, and that's keeping me from getting moving with the server.
Dead serial port, end of story. The 486 is up and running, although I have
to find some time to sit down to tweak Internet Explorer. I'm trying to
find a cheap hub so I can do 10baseT rather than 10base2 with the LAN.
DC> Got a similar problem here. Got a 33.6 that I can't get to work.
I was lucky, as the two we just bought were almost quite literally plug
and go. The one on the BBS had the speaker turned off, and that was it.
DC> Got it! BTW, if things get slow around here, maybe we could talk
DC> Trent into taking up the slack.
If memory serves, he's already taken his lumps in here. He's quite a character,
bravely running away when the going gets tough. Most of that which he spews
is nothing but a bunch of "scat play" anyways. :)
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Heathens
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:09:00
EID:d55e 222ba120
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f3c4
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d170ee
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Dan!
Lunae dies January 06 1997, Dixit Dan Ceppa ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> He dribbled on about how human creativity was some kind of symptom
of
SQ>> "crying out to the divine" (my quotes, not his). Frankly, I think
SQ>> it's symptom of the creativity of human beings. For crying out loud,
DC> It's seems that the most creative go that route or simpley burn out.
DC> Orson Wells was an example of the later.
Sure, but there are still others who are creative, and there are no deities
involved. Jones would have us all crying out to his deities in the pursuit
of our creativity.
DC> If so, then it's similar to the ST _The Menagerie_, in which the
DC> keepers do not have any emotions and find them in that of those
DC> of their captives. Which, of course, makes their god a rather
DC> poor excuse for a god.
The Talosians didn't have a god. :) At least they had -intellect.-
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:10:44
EID:b8b5 222ba140
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f452
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32d1b1be
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Jonathan!
Lunae dies January 06 1997, Dixit Jonathan Fingas ad All:
JF> I'm a proud (relatively speaking) Lutheran who goes to church every
JF> Sunday (not always voluntarily, but still).
Why not voluntarily? Or is this a "My folks make me go" kind of thing?
If you go to church, it should be for YOUR needs, and not someone else's
needs (-Especially- a church's needs: They don't own you.).
JF> Something that disturbs me are the people who stand outside the
JF> courtroom at OJ's civil trial or abortion clinics. These people claim
to
JF> be tolerant, loving Christians, but cry "murderer!" and would gladly
kill
JF> the target of their wrath. Can't these people see what they're doing?
JF> Can't anyone?
Ever notice that the State of Utah has the death penalty, and that some
of the kookiest people of the last 25 years have came from Utah, or at least
passed through there (My wife tells me that Ted Bundy was active in her
-neighborhood,- which is just 15 minutes from LDS World HQ.).
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Heathens
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:12:58
EID:31af 222ba180
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f49d
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 508076e9
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Marilyn!
Lunae dies January 06 1997, Dixit Marilyn Burge ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Frankly, I think it's symptom of the creativity of human
SQ>> beings. For crying out loud, even Jesse's deities are
SQ>> responsible for THAT. If so, why do they "call them home" at
SQ>> such a young age? Hendrix and Moon, dead of an accidental
MB> Mama Cass Elliott choked to death on a ham sandwich. I mean, it
In the same room in which Moon died, what? Six years later?
MB> isn't like she was doing anything that would be considered
MB> life-threatening or evil, like skydiving or smoking crack, but
MB> she's just as dead.
Then she must have done something to deserve that.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: December 25
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:15:20
EID:b8fc 222ba1e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f500
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d20d81
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Gwenny!
Martis dies January 07 1997, Dixit Gwenny the Pooh ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>>>> Perhaps we can get Sean McCullough to come up with
SQ>>>> "For the most part, atheists do not do good things" in Classical
SQ>>>> Latin. Sean, how about it?
GtP> I'll call him this morning.
Thanks...I'll be curious to see Jones's finest rendered into a Classical
language like Latin.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Al S.; Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:20:58
EID:9d32 222ba280
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f654
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d415a
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies January 08 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> You -do- realize that you've probably made the Jesse C.
sq>> Jones Fundy quotefile for that one, don't you? :)
FR> Oh shit! I had better beg for forgiveness and recant, huh? }:-}
Just two hundred years ago, that might have been a requirement for you to
continue living.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE - we're all gonna die!
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:21:34
EID:c1cb 222ba2a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f776
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d415b
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies January 08 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
JJ>>>> means is available. What a challenge! Can we topple the "Great
JJ>>>> Holysmoke" by this time next year. Really think about it. WE CAN
DO
JJ>>>> IT!
FR>> NO THEY CAN'T!
sq>> I would be very willing to bet money that JJ and the other
sq>> JJ can't do it, at least not using the "boycott" methods
sq>> that JJ suggested. Who wants to play some Three Card Monte
sq>> with me on this one? :)
FR> No bet here... not even if every fundy were to pack up and leave this
FR> instant would HolySmoke and our "fun" end.
Of course not. If they were to pack up and leave the PLANET, headed for
the star known as "Sol," THEN maybe the echo would come to a halt. But
it would have to be ALL the Fundies, not just the ones who post in HOLYSMOKE.
What was it that Oscar Wilde said about it being worse to NOT be talked
about than it was TO be talked about?
FR> And in fact I seriously doubt if either JJ has left at all; they're
FR> doubtless waiting around to see how their pretend "boycott" is
FR> working out.
I have no doubt that Jones is still scanning the echo from time to time.
FR> I expect Jesse to return any day now and demand, "I never said I was
FR> leaving for good" like he did the last time he "left."
He'll get a Jones-Jeanneault enema if he does.
FR>> As I recall Martin Reily made some comment about shutting-up HolySmoke.
sq>> He backed off of his Fundamentalism after he bought a TV
sq>> and his "church friends" rejected him.
FR> Yes, I recall that he started making noises about not being a Christian
FR> any more.
He was at least taking the first step. I wonder if he still places any
value in his deity beliefs. Getting away from the robots was definitely
a step in the right direction, as even HE recognized them for what they
truly are.
FR> I wonder if any of us helped him escape or whether it was (as
FR> is often the case) fellow Christians which inadvertantly helped him.
Probably the latter, although I sent him some e-mail about it. I think
John M. did too.
FR> I never knew anything about this television thing. Was he told that
he
FR> couldn't have a television? Does his entire cult fraction dictate that?
As I recall, he belongs to some group that says that TV is a no-no. It's
"of this world," you know. It brings in -education,- and the cult masters
don't want ANY part of THAT.
FR> This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ.
FR> There are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that
are
FR> going to be transformed into rabid Christers. - John Prewett
Loving it!
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:26:22
EID:617e 222ba340
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f817
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d415c
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies January 08 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> Now I see that various death cultists have started boycotting Disney
FR> because they acknowledge homosexual marriages.
I heard that Disney is going to "update" the Pirates of the Caribbean ride
so as to get rid of the maidens being chased around. Fact or fiction?
FR> Now that IBM has started to acknowledge homosexual marriages, a guy
FR> in a humanist newsletter I get wondered if they're going to throw
FR> away all their computers and software and start boycotting IBM.
It's much deeper than that. How many companies depend on mainframes running
SNA, and how many of them are involved with things critical to the Fundy's
life? Restaurants, credit cards, auto makers, phone companies, the list
goes on forever.
FR> I wonder if any of them realize that boycotts work both ways. Christianic
FR> zealots which include a fish symbol probably don't even consider the
FR> possibility that non-Christians give their shops a miss.
My wife and I have had this discussion. I won't go THAT far, but I -do-
wonder why these clowns feel that putting that stupid fish on their sign
makes them any more qualified than the next guy. THAT concerns me.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:29:00
EID:f40c 222ba3a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f863
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d415d
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies January 08 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> Funny how this student was expelled by people who wear
sq>> -brown- lipstick. Remember, you're dealing with the Tipper
sq>> Gore types who claimed that - tennis shoes- were a possible
sq>> symbol of your child's involvement with the occult. "Uh,
sq>> yes, well, Nike WAS a Greek goddess, but these Nikes
sq>> are just -shoes.-"
FR> I didn't hear anything about how black lipstick could be a symbol for
FR> "Satanism," though.
ANYTHING that goes against the establishment is going to be considered to
be "Satanic" by someone. Check out Tipper Gore's "Raising PG Kids in an
X-Rated Society." She's so far out in left field that she's gone over the
Green Monster at Fenway Park in Boston.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: The steve winter faq
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:30:10
EID:79d5 222ba3c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f8b6
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d415e
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies January 08 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>> And inevitably, you know he'll come right back to Fidonet...
FR> It's too bad we disbanded the IFNA -- it could have tossed him out and
FR> then sued him to recover legal fees.
That's what Winter WANTS: Legal confrontation. He wanted to sue Fidonet,
but as P4 clearly defines the ZC and the IC as people who coordinate mail,
Winter would have looked liked a BIGGER horse's ass by trying to drag Bob
Satti into court and claiming that he was the head of the organization.
He'd have to sue ALL of us.
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Still waiting, John
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:31:36
EID:825f 222ba3e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f8c9
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d4160
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies January 08 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad John Prewett:
FR> This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ.
FR> There are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that
are
FR> going to be transformed into rabid Christers. - John Prewett
FR> Have a date on this, John?
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 11 Jan 97 20:32:10
EID:ef34 222ba400
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32d7f909
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 040d4168
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies January 08 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad All:
FR> How about getting a stack of Beavis and Butt-head bookmarks and inserting
FR> them into Christanic bibles at the HolySmoke convention's hotels? I
saw
FR> the suggestion in a "Cracked" magazine.
Shoot, that's amateurish. How about getting a stack of Hustler magazines
and putting their contents into the books in the pews of an organization
that has done wrong to you?
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 11 Jan 97 16:40:42
EID:7997 222b8500
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 9c54e632
On (11 Jan 97) J.J. Hitt babbled to Marilyn Burge...
JH> JH>> I fully understand what you were trying to say, but none
JH> JH>> the less the final effect came out as something like a
JH> JH>> cross in between Jesse Jones and Mighty Mouse.
MB> One must put it in context.
JH> I was aware of the original context, even without your play-by-play.
JH> It's still a hilarious quote.
Whatever floats your boat.
I slightly misquoted it, but the words are attributed to
Edmund Burke (1729-1797). I'm sure his complete words
would keep you in stitches for days.
... Raising pet electric eels is gaining a lot of current popularity.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Stuart Lumgair
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 10 Jan 97 15:23:12
EID:88ee 222a7ae0
MSGID: 1:153/556.0 2d6c3832
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d435f6
Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to John Brawley:
RH> No, John, it IS a number. All the digits from 0 to 9 are numbers.
JB> I think that's just "procedurally" or "in terms of standard math"
DC> John, the concept is there. You could be doing the math in
DC> base 2 or in hex, the concept of numbers requires a zero to
DC> make any and all of them to work.
As I recall from my math courses, a long time ago, zero
is not included in one of the number sets. I don't even
recall all the number sets. Real, whole, integer, etc..
From a certain viewpoint, saying that zero is a number
equates with saying that atheism is a belief. Zero is a
lack of any numbers.
Stuart
--- timEd-B9
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Domino
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:23:10
EID:cbf3 222b5ae0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c7932e0b
REPLY: 1:123/531.0 2d6ca8f0
On (10 Jan 97) Domino wrote to Jim Staal...
D > Jim, having seen Dan during his little streak, remarked:
JS> What evidence do you have to make such an accusation?
D > What evidence do you have to say that Jesus was male and the Bible is
D > an accurate reference for anything besides the beleifs and practices
D > of Christianity?
(2 Tim 3:16 NIV) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
... Brought to you by the Sponsors of the Olympic Drowning Team.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:24:25
EID:ca3c 222b5b00
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 cb422c84
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d63827
On (10 Jan 97) Gwenny The Pooh wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> old I don't remember who), but of course I don't agree with the
JS> sentiment, silly.
GT> You liar. You know very well, because I posted it twice, that "the
GT> doctor" in question was YOU posting as Dr. James N. Staal. Still a
GT> liar for JAYSUS, I see.
I know nothing of this 'jaysus' you speak of, and of course I don't
agree with the sentiment, silly...
... You can find out a lot about paranoids just by following them around.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be sav
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:25:14
EID:6443 222b5b20
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f4c4bf91
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d639bb
On (10 Jan 97) Gwenny The Pooh wrote to Jim Staal...
GT> Heilsa, Jim!
GT> While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh
GT> heard Jim say to DAVID:
DR>> ... Good news: it's "KILL JIM STAAL FOR JESUS" Week here at HolySmoke!
JS> Oh, no-o-o-o-o-o! Not again!
GT> Let's just make it more non-denominational and include Isis, Kali,
GT> Herne, and Gwenny. Hey, I am a goddess.
Or you are, are you? All that in addition to being a male bashing man
hater?
... Beat me, whip me, make me read mail without Blue Wave v2.21!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: what a waste
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:25:55
EID:b8fb 222b5b20
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 54ccd57f
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d63acb
On (10 Jan 97) Gwenny The Pooh wrote to Jim Staal...
RC>> So how do you define a successful marriage to exclude Gwenny's?
JS> Beats me.
GT> But obviously not enough. Back to the dungeon with you, young man.
Ah, such sweet pain.
... But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only. - James 1:22
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: execute her ? [1]
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:26:31
EID:e0ec 222b5b40
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c573c3d5
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d63ba2
On (10 Jan 97) Gwenny The Pooh wrote to Jim Staal...
Gt>> As I have told you on several occassions, the ONE TRUE (tm) KJV/NIV
Gt>> Parallel Bible.
JS> We agree on something.
GT> But you said we didn't agree on anything. And where's your answers
to
GT> the rest of that post?
WE didn't before. And I have no answers to the rest of that post.
... Bo Knows Blue Wave!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: execute her ?
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:27:17
EID:f953 222b5b60
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 75992b7c
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d63c71
On (10 Jan 97) Gwenny The Pooh wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> Ok, I remeber this post. I was responding to 'wild's' alleged comments
JS> that he knew no divorced pagans or some such. It therefore stood to
JS> reason to comment that then _he_ must be the dude that did the nasty
JS> stuff (although I knew he was not). Get the picture now? It also
JS> interesting that gwenny is now denying that she was Mormon at the time.
JS> (confusing, ain't it?)
GT> I wasn't pagan when I got divorced. That is what he meant. My
GT> divorce fall into Christian stats.
Do not confuse Mormonism with Christianity.
GT> You then claimed, as Sue showed,
GT> that you didn't know I had been married before. Whereupon, I posted
GT> messages where you talked about my first husband.
No, Wild said you were not married before. (that he knew of no pagan
divorced people) I knew you were married before.
GT> You're debunk, yet again, oh applauder of women abusers.
Nah. And where do you get 'applauder of women abusers' from 'applauder
of alleged Gwenny abusers'?
... Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. (1 The 5:21)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:29:47
EID:cc91 222b5ba0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 de81e982
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d63d3c
On (10 Jan 97) Gwenny The Pooh wrote to Jim Staal...
GT> Heilsa, Jim!
GT> While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh
GT> heard Jim say to Gwenny:
DW>> Ya'll are just nice, big, pathetic but still worthwhile targets now.
DW>> Enjoy.
Gt>> Okay. And you have been relegated to the list that includes other
Gt>> rude people like Jim Staal and Nate Cookson. Enjoy.
JS> When was _I_ ever rude?
GT> Do you really want everyone to start reposting all your old fiascos??
I know of no 'old fiascos' and also, whatever turns your/their cranks.
... Blue Wave! Not just for FIDONet anymore!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:30:53
EID:7dfb 222b5bc0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 9fb84ce0
REPLY: 1:207/212 3048396d
On (10 Jan 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (01 Jan 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Why did God hate me so much that he gave us a savior only you men
KD> could relate to?
JS> You couldn't relate to yourj father because he was a man? You can't
JS> relate to your brother because he is a man? You can't relate to your
JS> husband because he is a man? Jesus Christ is all things to everybody.
KD> No, I cannot completely relate to any of those individuals due to the
KD> gender differences. Yes, we can have areas where we connect, but it
is
KD> never complete.
Where in your original statement do you mention 'completely' relate? No
one can completely relate to God. Sin stands in the way.
KD> The model for our creator should not exclude half of the human beings
KD> on earth.
He doesn't.
... People who want to get rich fall into temptation..-1 Tim 6:9
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Leviticus
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:32:06
EID:4e3d 222b5c00
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 16b6db0f
REPLY: 1:207/212 702dd13c
On (10 Jan 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (01 Jan 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Then he doesn't qualify under the prophesies, then does he? If he
KD> isn't the son of Joseph he isn't of the house of David.
JS> Ah...check Mary's lineage once.
KD> Which is irrelevant in Judaism.
Perhaps not, but very relevant in God's plan.
... The prudish amputee: Goody One Shoe.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 11 Jan 97 11:32:37
EID:57cc 222b5c00
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 539e4235
REPLY: 1:207/212 32b7b5e0
On (10 Jan 97) Karen Davis wrote to Jim Staal...
KD> On (01 Jan 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Promisekeepers is an organization intended to destroy my rights. As
KD> such I will oppose it until it is shown to be what it is.
JS> could you please provide some evidence to back up this obvious false
JS> claim?
KD> They support everything I am opposed to.
Peruse the seven promises of the PK and tell me which ones you are
opposed to.
... I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all. (1 Cor 14:18)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: [2/2] lon mabon ebon
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:33:01
EID:0e65 2226ac20
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a3fd
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>> Speaking of which: there doesn't seem to be any FIDO
CJ>> messages that have arrived in the past 24 hours or so. Having
CJ>> HOLYSMOKE suddenly become just you and me induces a Twilight Zone
CJ>> feeling.
DM> We don't seem to have Cookson to kick around.
Oh, he'll be back whenever FIDO returns to this board.
(Just hope we don't lose mail.) I give him about two weeks before
he leaves or combusts, though.
CJ>> If it keeps up, shall we take turns at moderating each
CJ>> other? We could issue invitations to come back to the two local
CJ>> fundies with access to our board: Sandy "Wine is a type of blood"
CJ>> Hooper and John "Asian countries are in Africa" Harris.
DM> What about that "I am a professional writer" guy--Davis? Clayton
DM> Davis! He's local, isn't he?
Of course! I hope you haven't sent out the
invitations to the other two; both are just too prolix. But
Clayton . . . yes. A true loon of the first water. 'Twas a pity
he left HOLYSMOKE so soon.
DM> Looking at the smug, self-satisfied look on the Jewish fundy who
DM> opened fire in Hebron today to stop the peace process, I am reminded
DM> of how very important a HolySmoke is in a world of religious nuts.
Although Judaism specifically forbids ramming the ramming
of that religion down your throat (unless you live in Israel, that
is), it has its quota of fundies. In particular, I'm reminded of
the recent guy who contended that _halakh_ forbade the rescue of
gentile children on a Sabbath. Happily, he did not have one
supporter, and the rest jumped on him so hard that he left the
echo after having been on it for at least two years.
... Fortunately, the way to heaven is a spiral.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1456
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: 12 days of abduction
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:35:02
EID:dd64 2226ac60
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a474
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 31 Dec 96 02:48pm, CARL POLLOCK wrote to RIC CARTER:
CP> If you didn't notice, this is a RELIGIOUS DEBATE echo. Why on earth
CP> would a message like the twelve days of abduction go here?
Some folk believe the saucer-critters are actually demons.
Also, as far back as the early '60s sociologists were
writing about the parallels between UFO "contacts" and religious
visions.
... Keyboard only cryptic stuff below this line.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1457
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: adaption
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:35:03
EID:a325 2226ac60
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a4eb
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 30 Dec 96 10:58pm, ROBERT CURRY wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
CJ>>> Tidal lock doesn't happen overnight; life could conceivably
CJ>>> adapt.
AS>>> I don't think adaption will work.
RC>> How would you know?
AS>> Because one side would be so cold as to have liquid helium,
RC> BEFORE tidal lock occurs? Well, no wonder Curtis soon became
RC> fed up trying to talk sense with you on these matters, as
RC> you don't bother reading his statements with actual comprehension.
RC>
RC> So do you know that adaptation could not occur, Al?
Because, according to his reply, life on Earth is only one
billion years old?
Tidal friction can also be a source of considerable
internal heat (example: Io).
I might note that Mercury in our own system shows a
situation in which a third body can prevent such a
one-face-forever-to-the-sun from occurring.
Now that Jovian-size planets have been found to occur
rather close to the parent star, there is also the plausible
situation of life on a largish satellite of that planet. Tidal
effects from the parent star could hardly prevent it from
continuing in its orbit.
... The capital of Arcadia was Megalopolis.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
o
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Brian Shreve
|Sub: mary's pelvic exam
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:35:04
EID:4c98 2226ac60
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a562
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
BS>> Propaganda was delivered from the mouth.
BS>> So saith Mickey Mouse, my god.
CJ>> You may have hold one of the more interesting theologies:
CJ>> care to elaborate?
BS>
BS> Hmm, elaborate on what exactly? Tell me, and I shall.
I was wondering if there is a place in the Magic Kingdom
waiting for us, and if our Uncle who art in cyrogenic storage had
overpowered our Lady Annette so that an innocent teen, she yet
gave birth to Mickey Mouse.
And as a tie-in to another thread, does Mickey Mouse have
gypsy blood in him?
CJ>> Tinkerbelle an angel?
BS>
BS> Mmmm, perhaps, how-about Jezzebelle?
It's said that there were those who'd like to jizz in that
belle . . .
Actually, Jezebel's a much more attractive figure than her
prophet-anointed butcher. Turns out that the only image we have
of an Israelite king is one of him crawling on his belly to the
Assyrians in submission--an archeological detail that somehow
didn't make it into the OT.
CJ>> ... Conan was a hacker.
BS>
BS> Think Nate got it right a short while back, and hands down, Conan was
BS> bested by far by the king of hackers. (forgot his name, but he hacked
BS> to pieces his victims...)
Crom!
CJ>> * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1454
BS>
BS> Day 1454!! Man alive, get that sucker registered! Shame on you!
Be patient. According to the software, I've been
evaluating it less and less with each passing day!
... Nightmare: Cats with opposable thumbs.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] oh wells
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:35:05
EID:805e 2226ac60
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a5d9
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
JB>> Al is beginning to rate a whole new category of logical fallacy:
JB>> Argumentum ad Fictionus. Whenever he can't bring himself to look up
JB>> facts, he resorts to fiction (usually science fiction). And the rest
JB>> of us are supposed to accept these arguments without barfing all over
JB>> our keyboards.
LB> By golly, I think Judith's got something there!
My delay in replying to you let me see his reply first.
Al is saying that he introduce argument from science fiction
first, when he clearly did with _War of the Worlds_, whose very
title he chose to ignore. And then he claims that he was the one
that stuck to facts!
CJ>> AAMOF, in space opera, armed conflict with gleeps is almost
CJ>> universally called war. That he surely knows this only adds to the
CJ>> bizarreness. Two titles immediately spring to mind: Haldeman's
CJ>> _The Forever War_ (recommended, BTW) and D. Gerrold's _War with
CJ>> the Chthorr_.
LB> Yup. As well as Star Wars, where different species not only fought
LB> against each other, but as allies. Ditto the Star Trek universe. Ditto
LB> B5.
So when we point out that the genre he uses to contend
there can't be war between us and another species seems to contend
something different, he accuses us of not sticking to facts? I
don't know whether to ROTFL or .
LB> Dunno...if they are allies, does he have a different take on it, or
LB> would he see that in the same sense the calvary would be "allied" with
LB> their horses?
War horses and war dogs were bred to _enjoy_ battle.
As to Al's take on this? Who knows. He quoted it out in
his reply to you.
CJ>> And he takes the passing comment of _one_ character in a
CJ>> novel whose title contradicts his proposition to outweigh all of
CJ>> the usage in all of sf since?!!?
LB> Well, he had an argument to justify. Any port in a storm...
Which, as it turns out, means quoting out what I said so he
could babble about "insinuation."
CJ>> And he showed every sign of willing to babble on endlessly
CJ>> about his Al definition that armed conflict with gleeps can't be
CJ>> war because--because Al says so.
LB> Because Al never just quits an argument. Something has been occuring
All too damn true. In a boast/taunt to another participant
in the past few days, it would seem that he gave away that one of
his favorite tactics is to "outlast" people.
This should be one clue as to why fewer and fewer people
want to talk to him. But then sometimes with Al it's hard to
figure out when he's whining and when he's boasting. This
probably relates to his strong interest in martyrs.
LB> bone, and not being able to quit. Sometimes, that is the way I see
LB> what happens with Al...he has a thought, makes a passing comment on
it,
LB> and when someone points out a flaw in it, instead of simply rethinking
LB> and moving on, he starts digging in his heels and arguing from that
LB> position, well past the point of reason, well past the point where HE
LB> would have agreed, had it not been HIS statement he was defending. And
LB> doesn't give up until there is some new stimulus to capture his
LB> attention.
LB> Pay attention if you can stomach it...watch him make a comment, use
a
LB> metaphor,
LB> and then insert that metaphor into 20 different posts, regardless of
the
LB> topic,
LB> and regardless of whether its pertinant to the specific discussion.
By
LB> the time he's finished peppering everything with that idea, the idea
LB> itself has become rooted into his own thinking, and he can't see how
we
LB> all CAN'T see it the same way, since everything HE sees is coated with
LB> it.
LB> More than the length of his posts, or the number of them, for me THIS
LB> is what makes discussion with him so difficult....because what he's
got
LB> sprinkled over everything becomes a barrier to have to work past, avoid
LB> getting sidetracked by it. After awhile, the effort becomes to
LB> much...its just no longer worth it to see past the clutter to what he's
LB> really thinking.
Perhaps. It's also hard to distinguish between that and him
setting himself up as _the_ authority on something; and then when
it's pointed out that he's factually wrong, he follows through the
usual Schroderization that is merely the fundy shuffle on a higher
plane.
LB> Sad part is, I'd like to know what Al really thinks on some things,
and
LB> have asked him, point blank, to tell me without referencing 20 dead
LB> scholars. He can't, or won't. And will not understand that my wanting
LB> to know HIS thoughts without all those filters is a compliment rather
LB> than insult....I am interest in what AL thinks.
I do get a sense that he has intellectual powers but that
his personality is limiting them.
CJ>> I do notice that he did apologize for gif gaffe. But he
CJ>> made that gif gaffe, as can be seen in his apology to you, while
CJ>> going into full hurt-puppy mode over your reference to him using
CJ>> "harpies." In his haste to go into full hurt-puppy mode, he
CJ>> failed to notice the smiley attached to the end of the statement!
LB> :) Curtis, it wasn't even Judith's comment, it was mine. Judith was
LB> simply collateral damage (of course, as a fellow harpy, she and I ARE
LB> in league with one another) And it was very carefully worded: noted
LB> that the word had come up, but that it doesn't mean anything. And
LB> included a smiley. Now, yes, it was intended as bait....in IRC
LB> conversations lately, Al has been regarding even my neutral comments
as
LB> personal insults, as stirrings of a fight, even when there was none
LB> there. So I made a PURPOSELY neutral statement, to see if he'd re-edit
LB> what I said through his filter and turn it into something else.
LB> And he did....his reinterpretation, which he's busy commenting on
LB> everywhere, is that it somehow suggested that I thought he shouldn't
LB> have used the word.
I'm rather sorry that your message to me should have been
the occasion of another Al blather. However, it is apparent to me
that the particular blather to you largely confirms everything you
said.
That response of his confirms my determination to _never_
engage him on a personal level. The level of ideas is bad enough.
And note that when I lost patience with him was precisely when he
started to make patronizing assumptions about me.
... Montanan: "Well, at least our cows are sane."
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [2/2] oh wells
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:35:06
EID:435b 2226ac60
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a650
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
>>>> Part 2 of 2...
LB> (It doesn't say that, does it?) Or that I'm not 'allowing' him to be
LB> humorous.
Al's response proved exactly your point.
LB> That's the filter I'm dealing with with Al....he sprinkles every
LB> conversation we have with the idea that I'm ready to attack him. It
LB> makes it near impossible to discuss anything with him at all. And
it
LB> would quickly grow very unpleasant if I were to try. I think I'm
Again, his response to your message to me exemplified
exactly what you were saying.
LB> grateful for YOUR Al OD coming when it did - - it reminded me of where
LB> I don't want to go. Since I'm not inclined to leave the echo again
to
LB> avoid it, I'm going to take other steps to keep it from happening
LB> again. Too much effort for too little return.
It takes a few cycles for the Al Effect to kick in--but
kick in, it will.
CJ>> Meanwhile, he constitutionally *cannot* let the Curry
CJ>> e-mail thing die (has Al ever let a thread die a natural death?)
LB> Nope.
At the very least, he's suffering from Last Word syndrome.
And he is doing his damndest to to keep the Curry e-mail thing
alive, so that he milk every last imagined grievance out of it.
CJ>> and Rod Swift has just revived his Rice Brothers fiasco.
LB> hehe...which will only get him all righteously offended at Kat, Judith
LB> and I again. Sprinkle sprinkle sprinkle..
Yep. I know there's a psychological type called an
"injustice collector," that I'll have to read up on.
... Leave the binary thinking to your CPU.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: whose mantra?
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:35:07
EID:7309 2226ac60
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a6c7
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
LW>> If people wish to hold to one of those beliefs, I have no problem with
LW>> that. The problem comes when someone claims that s/he can _demonstrate_
LW>> that one of them is true or one of them is false.
CJ>> If you can demonstrate that consciousness also can be
CJ>> predicted in precise mathematical detail, you might have an
CJ>> argument worth listening to. If you can't, I don't think it is
CJ>> worth listening to.
LW> Are you really arguing that only things that can be predicted in precise
LW> mathematical detail are worth paying attention to?
LW> I hope you're not married...
>
As someone who's actually sold some poetry, of course not.
However, it looks like what you are an advocate for (you're
conveniently ambiguous as to whether you believe it or not) is
that the behavior of matter is a result of "consciousness."
It's obvious that mathematical laws apply to matter-energy.
It is very far from obvious that they apply to consciousness in
any great detail.
LW> But seriously, Heisenberg has long since put to rest the idea that even
LW> physical events can always be predicted in precise mathematical detail.
LW> The old, mechanistic view of the universe is, if not dead, terminally
LW> ill.
Quantum mechanical statistics converge to give the
"mechanistic" view for macroscopic events.
The interesting thing about quantum mechanics is that the
statistical predictions are eminently mathematical; the
controversy is on what the mathematics mean.
Get hold of a text on quantum mechanics for physicists who
have to use it: it will be fiercely mathematical.
... Can I help you?--Alex Gt. You're blocking the sun. Move.--Diog.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: superstion
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:35:08
EID:a4b5 2226ac60
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a73e
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 30 Dec 96 05:45pm, ROGER HUNTER wrote to CURTIS JOHNSON:
CJ>> You'd probably also enjoy his much more recent _The Jesus
CJ>> Party_, which explores the probable participation of the Jerusalem
RH> Yes, I have that one too.
CJ>> Church in anti-Roman activities and the 66-70 AD rebellion.
CJ>> He also wrote an earlier study of Paul, in which he argued
CJ>> that Paul probably thought of himself as a messiah.
RH> Was that "Those Incredible Christians"? I've read it, but lost
RH> my copy somewhere.
I haven't read that one by him yet. I think it deals with
the immediately post-rebellion Church?
The title where he dealt specifically with Paul is, IIRC,
"Jew of Tarsus."
Schoenfeld has always been interesting for his well-argued
takes; although they have not usually been incorporated by
mainstream scholarship, he does call attention to items mainstream
scholarship tends to forget/ignore. His secular Jewish
perspective probably helps.
Another book by him that I'd enjoy reading is "According to
the Hebrews," about Jewish takes of Jesus.
... EDLINE 8.7: For people who take life one line at a time.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Christian Hedemark
|Sub: christ-like
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:36:09
EID:3d0c 2226ac80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a7b5
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 31 Dec 96 03:36pm, CHRISTIAN HEDEMARK wrote to DAVID RICE:
DR>>>>CH> It is not Christ-like to kill.
CH> ^^^^^^^^^^^
DR>> Abbot, Henry: hanged, drawn and quartered at York, England, on 4 July,
CH> 1597
DR>> Abel, Thomas: hanged, drawn and quartered at Smithfield, England, on
30
CH> Jul
CH> David - Trivia info: Shortest verse in the Bible is... "Jesus wept."
CH> I am sure he wept over all the suffering you brought to my attention.
CH> Is it "Christ-like" to weep over suffering. It is not Christ-like to
CH> kill.
CH> All your examples are Man's cruel acts towards Man.
CH> Jesus (Christ) gives us no such examples of Himself acting in such
CH> manner.
CH> The only thing Christ-like about such torture, is that Man did the same
CH> thing to Jesus.
According to your Gospels, he did much threatening of death
and torture to those who did not believe in him.
... Pot nut. You're trusts, djinn; spill chukkas!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1457
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: spam me big boy!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:36:10
EID:9c4d 2226ac80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a82c
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 31 Dec 96 03:02pm, KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT wrote to LYNDA BUSTILLOZ:
LB>> KW> Why should you dread it? A woman gets called a
LB>> KW> 'feminazi' when she had the strength and character to stand up
for
LB>> KW> herself against little slimy limpdicks like Ken. I would think
that
LB>>(G) Like standing up to the likes of Weins is any great task...
KW> That is what is unforgivable, in their eyes. You notice that Ken seems
KW> to have taken out of here with his weeny tail between his legs.
KW> What ever did happen to that bear? Or did the Bear run off
KW> with Ken?
He's still ranting in R-RELIGION (and I'm still unable to
post there). Among his latest hobby-horses are about AIDS being
God's punishment on homosexuals (yawn; he's getting predictably
torn apart there, albeit in a more polite fashion than here) and
his contention that such movies as _Silence of the Lambs_, the
Star Wars and Star Trek series, and _Jesus Christ Superstar_ are
attacks on Christianity.
... And they call this tele_communications_?
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1457
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Chris Green
|Sub: post yule be sorry!
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:36:11
EID:495a 2226ac80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a8a3
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CG> Also got good news, in that my hospital appointment is for the first
CG> week in January, so the nerve (trigeminal) in the side of my head will
CG> be sorted out.
CG> My sense of humour should be back shortly thereafter.
I've run across enough medical miscellania to know that
you don't need my wish for this year to be a happier one, then!
... OS/2:. . .And the Gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1457
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Brett Johnson
|Sub: brett johnson; jealou
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:36:12
EID:56c7 2226ac80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a91a
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 1 Jan 97 03:05pm, BRETT JOHNSON wrote to FREDRIC RICE:
BJ>> If God were not jealous, it would show
BJ>> a lack of affection, not the contrary.
FR>>
GT>> Love and jealousy are _NOT_ complementary, but mutually exclusive.
FR>>
mb>> Only an
BJ> emotional illiterate would think otherwise.
FR>> There's something fundamentally sick with that belief; or perhaps it's
FR>> humanity's primate ancestery he's laboring under.
BJ> For something to be sacred, it has to have some sort of exclusivity.
BJ> This is the nature of man's relationship to God. This is the ultimate
BJ> meaning of the verse "you shall not have other gods besides me."
You have shown yourself most unknowledgeable--or
bigoted--toward other peoples, beliefs, and cultures. Your
definition of "the sacred" does not apply to them. Please,
immediately, purchase any textbook on comparative religion
used by a secular university.
BJ> The same situation exists for other sacred relationships in this
BJ> life...the most akin to the "God-Man" relationship being that between
BJ> the husband and wife.
Sick.
... Modeming? It's all in the wrist.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1457
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: reading incomprehensi
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:36:13
EID:7063 2226ac80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615a991
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>> I would have left them lying there. I already have a BoM,
CJ>> but have found it completely unreadable. My I should try that
CJ>> drinking game someone else suggested.
GT> Hmmm, I missed that.
It involved taking turns reading the BoM, and then downing
a swallow each time a certain recurrent phrase occurred yet again.
GT>>> Constatine was a Mithras worshipper.
CJ>> Plausible, but just what he actually was still seems to be
CJ>> controversial. My take is that like a true politician, he put
CJ>> himself as a Mithraist to Mithrans, a Christian to Christians,
CJ>> etc.
GT> Unfortunately, he finally espoused the Christian religion,
GT> and the rest is ugly, bloody history.
One version I've heard (which I'm only mildly skeptical
about) is that the Mithraists refused to take him after he killed
off his relatives.
Nonetheless, even with the "official" version, it is
amusing that he put off being baptized until his deathbed (hard to
commit sins that accrue to you on your deathbed), and that even
then it was by an Arian (i.e., heretic).
... And they call this tele_communications_?
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* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: cheese whiz
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:36:14
EID:8701 2226ac80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615aa08
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>>>> What is the size of a 12-week fetus? Answer her question,
CJ>>>> Gnat.
GT>>> Tried to slip out of answering, didn't he.
CJ>> And I bet he'll keep on trying to avoid it.
GT> Undoubtedly. He has answered many of my messages, but not that one.
And not yet. He still answered my medical data reply about
abortion/breast cancer. Gnat has every sign of being one of those
fundies who ignores hard questions instead of attempting, however
ineffectually, to answer them. Advisory to all: archive
correspondence with him to detail the gaps back to him.
GT>>> they put two cabbages in a room together, with electrodes on one of
GT>>> them, and a person went in and cut the other to pieces. The first
GT>>> cabbage went ballistic. . .well, for a cabbage. Later they paraded
GT>>> quite a few people through the room, and when the cabbage murder came
GT>>> in, the first cabbage recognized him.
CJ>> I have to say I'm skeptical that you read that in _Discover_. What
is
CJ>> true is that when the foliage of many plants is macerated, compounds
CJ>> are released into the air that cause nearby plants to react by
CJ>> increasing their production of pest-discouraging compounds. If
CJ>> cabbage is such a plant, then it may be plausible that the change-over
CJ>> in metabolic activity could be electrically detectable. As for the
CJ>> recognition, he/she may still have smelled of cabbage, setting off
the
CJ>> same effect.
GT> It's possible it was Omni. One of the little blurbs tucked in in
GT> unusual places. But I do know it wasn't on April 1.
GT> Discover is damned sneaky about that issue. My favourite was year they
GT> did the article on someone finding the Holy Grail on Christmas Eve and
GT> there being enough left over dried blood from the Last Supper to do
a
GT> DNA check on the first god/human hybrid.
With _Omni_, that they usually squeezed such snippets into a
column titled _Antimatter_ suggests that a cheek was being
tongued.
_Discover_ does have some pretty clever stuff for their
April Fool's issue. Apparently a lot of people were taken in
(including some posters to the F-SCIENCE echo) over the purported
discovery by a scientist (whose full name was French for April
Fool) of a mole-like carnivore that heated up its nose to burrow
through ice to feast on penguins.
... WARNING! Any use of any product will lead to heat death!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: latest martinez disas
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:36:15
EID:c6cf 2226ac80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615aa7f
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
CJ>> Or--perhaps he knows that he could not certify himself as
CJ>> HIV-free? And the entire farrago is an elaborate denial of
CJ>> a looming fate?
JH> That has been my guess since the very begining.
It does give hope that cyberspace will be hearing less from
him in the near future.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: goodbye
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:36:16
EID:3670 2226ac80
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615aaf6
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
>>>>> SM> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!" [d&rg]
>>>>> JH> GOURDS! GOURDS! SQUASH HIM!
>>>>> DC> GARRANDS! GARRANDS! SHOOT HIM!
>>>>> ML> GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
>>>>> EV> GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
>>>>> ML> GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
>>>>> JH> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
>>>>> ML> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
>>>>> DC> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
>>>>> ML> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
>>>>> DC> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
>>>>> ML> GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!
CJ>> CJ>>EM>> GaAsFETS! GaAsFETS! AMPLIFY HIM!
CJ>> CJ>>RV> GROWLER! GROWLER! SHORT-CIRCUITED HIM!
CJ>>> GOPHERS! GOPHERS! FTP HIM!
RV>> GRID! GRID! CONTROL HIM!
RV>> GASSING-1! GASSING-1! ELECTROLYSIS HIM!
CJ>> GO-FERS! GO-FERS! GET HIM!
DC> GARNISHES, GARNISHES! TOP HIM!
GRIPPERS! GRIPPERS! SQUEEZE HIM!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1459
* Silver Xpress V4.00
--- InterEcho 1.19
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: dark bible #4
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:37:18
EID:f207 2226aca0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615abe4
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
JB> placement involved. In my personal experience (say, a total of 200
or
JB> 250 hours of eye-on-dark-sky watching), the number of meteors I see
per
JB> hour is WAY below what you note below. Most nights, I'm lucky to see
JB> _one_.
Should we then conclude that there is a Quantum God, but
that it didn't want you to see meteors?
CJ>> From _A Concise Encyclopedia of Astronomy_, American
CJ>> Elsevier, 1969, "Meteor":
CJ>> "About 25 meteors an hour can be seen from a single
CJ>> observation point with the naked eye. One observer, who naturally
CJ>> cannot keep all parts of the sky under observation at the same
CJ>> time, usually sees about 8 meteors in the same period. The number
JB> This is nice an' all, but is not _true_ in my experience.
JB> That is, if I go by my own experience, which I find _always_ wiser than
JB> taking even an authoritative "word for it," this is not the case.
CJ>> IOW, you could typically expect to see a meteor every 7-8
CJ>> minutes anyway.
JB> It does not happen. Not even averaged over the hours I've watched,
JB> _including_ the extra numbers during meteor showers, 6 or 7 or 8 meteors
JB> an hour is just not what happens. Sorry.
For full excrucitating detail which boils down to my quoted
source, see Chap. 5, "Observational Data on Meteors," DWR
McKinley, McGraw-Hill Paperbacks, 1961 [long in the tooth, but I
doubt that meteors have changed since then], the amusingly (to me)
titled _Meteor Science and Engineering_. [The engineering refers
to radio detection.]
CJ>> And, as it turns, out, winter solstice is exactly the time
CJ>> of the Ursids--a show which adds a dozen more meteors/hour over
CJ>> the background rate.
JB> OK, let's discount the whole event. I would then have to do this
JB> probably a dozen times or more, avoiding maxima and timing for the
JB> median, to justify claiming a highly radical departure from statistical
JB> "ground" (zero standard deviations). But the important thing about
the
JB> Hypothesis (and the experience) is the timing and placement. One needs
JB> not only ask how many meteors are average, but also how many meteors
JB> should be expected from _demanding_them_at_a_specific_ time, say, within
JB> a five-minute window, and further, one would have to ask what the
JB> probability is for repeating this a few times.
Agreed. Which is why one should first check out what the
background (aka "sporadic") rate is first, then check dates of
meteor showers--in the case of your date, the Ursids.
JB> the data-set needed. It's going to take many more "honest
JB> investigators" than just me, to determine the quality and frequency
of
JB> this "providence"-forcing Hypothesis.
Yep. And wouldn't an honest investigator at least try to
see if there's a predicted shower for that date?
BTW, in 1999 there should be quite a show from (IIRC) the
Leonids, which tend to recur every 33 years. Unfortunately, it'll
probably play into the hand of the millenialists.
JB> However, I'll stand on my claim that this is an Hypothesis and an
JB> "event-testing" system that is NOT derived from religious history;
JB> rather, the Hypothesis (and hence the post on "tests for God") is
JB> derived from strictly hardware scientific experimentation in quantum
JB> phenomenology, and makes the above types of _predictions_. (That is,
JB> given a) the "God," b) the "God's" ability to detect human mentation
JB> (hence "make appointments"), c) the "God's" willingness to, say, divert
JB> meteors slightly, and d) the quantum facts of chaos-theory adjustability
JB> and quantum probabilistic meddlings, the statistics of such "coincidence
JB> testing" _should_ show a definite deviation from the expected
JB> probabilistic "norm." Eh?
Given the premises a), b), c), and d), offhand I see no
reason to argue your conclusion. There is, howver, 4 premises
which do not necessarily apply--and in fact, at least the first 3
are supposedly what were being proved (IOW, circular reasoning).
JB>> For example, the issue of smoking.... With a coincidence-violating
JB>> regularity that is astonishing, I go out to get cigarettes and am
JB>> interfered with on the way to the store about four times in five.
The
JB>> opposite is also true: if I try to _avoid_ stopping for cigarettes,
JB>> events in my area _aid_ my motion _past_ the store.
CJ>> Assmuming that all this stuff happening to you while
CJ>> walking tobacco road is as statistically meaningful as you state,
JB> I consider it so.
I note that you have not even bothered to state what these
"interferences" are. Presumably a red light would classify as an
intereference.
CJ>> other explanations would also be consistent with the above.
JB> Well, until a) MY Hypothesis gets known well enough, and b) there have
JB> been enough people testing it _consistent_with_ its predictions and
JB> conditions, this is all just pissin' in the wind. I merely report my
JB> _nonsubjective_ (not internal to the brain; events in the real outside
JB> world) experiences. It's up to others to investigate the ideation more
JB> fully; the violations of probability are _graphically_ obvious to ME.
JB> To eliminate the possibilities that a) I'm lying, or b) I'm crazy, or
c)
JB> I'm deluded enough to be biased in this direction, _others_ will have
to
JB> apply the tests as well, and add to the statistical database. _I_ can't
JB> be trusted to have "proved" anything with these examples....
For starters, you'll have to categorize what "interference"
consists of beforehand. Red light? Someone asking for spare
change? Etc.---but how the specify the etc. beforehand?
CJ>> For instance, it is apparent that you feel guilty about
CJ>> smoking. Perhaps the power operating to hinder your tobacco
CJ>> purchase is yours, but you are unconscious of it?
JB> I don't control, for example, the number of times the dang _traffic_
JB> keeps me from turning left toward the Quik Shop (where I always buy
JB> them) when I'm going TO BUY cigarettes, as compared to the number of
JB> times the traffic isn't so *&#%%$@ heavy when I'm NOT going to buy
JB> them.... And I do not have a regularity about my buying times; it's
JB> scrambled. Now, if you're suggesting that _I_ am clairvoyantly
JB> perceiving remote traffic patterns and choosing the worst times to go
to
JB> the Quik Shop... ...well, that strikes me as as loony as my Quantum
JB> Theology and "test for God" seems to strike other people... (*grin*)
You have not given a philosophical means to distinguish
between the two!
And just like you did not establish what meteor frequencies
are beforehand, you have not establish traffic frequencies
beforehand. There certainly is a psychological effect to rule out
beforehand--namely, increased impatience toward nicotine
gratification.
A smoker myself, I know how this can go.
CJ>> Nicotine withdrawal makes people edgy, interferes with
CJ>> their concentration, and makes them forgetful. Combine them with
CJ>> a bad conscience about smoking, and you're likely to be "out of
CJ>> synch" with events.
JB> Indeed. Now, how do you distinguish the two hypothesized effects from
JB> each other? (*grin*) Deliberate tests --"appointments with destiny"
JB> (little 'n')-- seem to be warranted. The power of unusual coincidence
JB> is great, upon the magic-minded human race, but HOW MUCH coincidence
is
JB> TOO MUCH coincidence? My test(s), I propose, can help answer that
JB> question, and, being founded both on the idea that the Universe is
JB> inherently "intelligent and self-aware," and on _hardware_science_,
can
JB> also perhaps provide "good reasons to believe" that it is so.
Your question do tend to match my questions.
However, as to trying to distinguish positive results from
the various possible explanations--that indeed is an interesting
philosophical question. Assume for the sake of argument that the
effects you want exist: how can we distinguish between the effect
of John Brawley's wishes on the universe from a posited Quantum
God?
... "Bother," said Pooh, and wrote a tagline.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: christian freewill
|Date: 06 Jan 97 21:37:19
EID:9efa 2226aca0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 2615ac5b
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
KD> Just an interesting aside since y