God Damned Fundies!
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: Carl Sagan
|Date: 13 Jan 97 15:10:28
EID:fcac 222d7940
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5064
-> On 11 Jan 97 05:34:13, Bill Wolff got back to Martin Goldberg
BW> Carl Sagan didn't claim that evolution had positively had taken
BW> place!
MG> You wnat to be treated like you're not a fundy? OK, explain why
BW> No you don't seem to understand. As I know that evolution is a fact,
You don't understand, Billy-boy. Nada, nothing.
BW> have changed by changing conditions by natural means. Although Carl
BW> Sagan also admits that species may have been changed by "...
This is the third time in as many messages from you that you
have lied about the Sagan quote. You wouldn't even make a
piss-poor primordial soup if a large dose of intelligence
was added to it.
... Every fundy flamed enlightens the world.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: Ceppa has his head up his ass again. Oh. That's his normal s
|Date: 13 Jan 97 15:16:02
EID:212e 222d7a00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da51b2
-> On 11 Jan 97 04:58:01, Bill Wolff got back to Dan Ceppa
You are on a roll, Billy-boy. This is message number four
that you lie your silly little ass off.
DC> Tell us again, oh dipshit, how Carl Sagan is a creationist.
BW> I've never said that Carl Sagan was creationists. What I did say is
Bullshit, you stupid little shit for brains.
BW> that I agree with Carl Sagan completely. And when Carl Sagan admits
BW> that the fossil record could be consistent with "... a Designer of a
BW> more remote and indirect temperament..." I happen to agree with him.
You still try to twist Sagan's quote. Don't you have any morals
in that twisted brain of yours?
BW> goofy fundy does. Now I know you will ignore the truth this time
BW> around just like you have done so in the past.
It is the truth that you are ignoring. In fact, based on your
messages, it has never taken the time to visit you.
... The only time I open my mouth is to change feet!!: Bill Wolff
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: Mysteries of the Bible - Live on the Internet
|Date: 13 Jan 97 15:28:33
EID:f080 222d7b80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da54a1
-> On 11 Jan 97 06:21:33, Bill Wolff got back to Fredric Rice
BW> Someone dumped this into my Internet email inbox.
FR> I don't believe you.
BW> Of course you don't.
Get it straight, Billy-boy. No one believes a single thing
that you post as being remotely factual.
You've cried "Wolff" far more than one too many times.
... Argumentum ad Ringling Brothers: You are a Clown!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Indians
|Date: 13 Jan 97 15:49:06
EID:2e47 222d7e20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5972
-> On 12 Jan 97 23:53:19, David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa
TE>>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations
DC>> Yep, around here, they are all bickering over who gets to sell off
DC>> all the clams, net the salmon rivers and build the biggest
GP> Shows they are quick learners.
DW> Here's your flyby badge, Dan. :)
A couple more of them and I can take that vacation I always
wanted to do in the Andromeda Galaxy! (Of course, Leipzig
already has the frequent flyer points to do the same and
include half the worlds population as freebies!)
... "It is sad, because planets like this one are hard to find." G Glunz
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: so...now what?
|Date: 13 Jan 97 15:54:07
EID:bc39 222d7ec0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5a9f
-> On 12 Jan 97 13:52:02, Mark Kimes got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> I'm still trying to figure out why, if he didn't believe in it,
DC> he brought it up in the first place.
LW> It is a good start. Knowing that one _doesn't_ know is much better
DC> IOW, Lee, you don't have a clue to what you believe.
MK> Lee's "theory which is not a theory" is dismembered by Occam's Razor.
Lee does a good job of disembowling on his own. He really
doesn't need Occam to cut out any more of it.
MK> to him is simply there to point out how stupid this unwarranted
MK> assumption really is. Too bad he still won't permit himself to get
it.
I asked him to perform the experiment. I even pleaded with him.
Perhaps we could take a collection up and pay him?
Hell, I'd pay a buck to see it in action!
... "God told me" is no excuse for stupidity. -- Steve Quarrella
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: ...
|Date: 13 Jan 97 16:04:40
EID:3b4d 222d8080
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5d18
-> On 11 Jan 97 05:28:06, Al Schroeder got back to Marilyn Burge
AS> And notice that the EXACT SAME PERSON who said that prayed in the
AS> Garden of Gethsemene to have "this burden lifted from me"...He was not
And yet another example to show that prayer doesn't work.
After all, if it doesn't work for a godling, why should it
work for mere mortals?
... Close your eyes, click your heels together 3 times and yell "IS NOT!"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: APOLOGY TO JUDITH
|Date: 13 Jan 97 16:13:55
EID:f424 222d81a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5f43
-> On 11 Jan 97 05:53:12, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> they keep you going back to tithe every Sunday other than to
DC> pay for your forgiveness that you also need?
AS> I don't tithe.
IOW, you haven't signed the document that requires you to
do so.
AS> I pay what I am comfortable giving, because I approve
AS> of many of the ministries we support, like helping the homeless, or
Ministries? Why not work for the eradication of the problems?
AS> But yes, it is a given that we will fall short. Many decry
Yet, some how, your minister will still have a roof over his
head and a full belly.
AS> higher trying to reach the sky. You will never reach it. But you can
AS> get closer.
However, when you can't reach it, you stop trying. After all,
why make a damned fool out of your self trying to reach something
that is unobtainable?
... 10th Rule of Creationism: Ignored evidence will go way...
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97 16:19:13
EID:c66f 222d8260
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da6081
-> On 11 Jan 97 06:41:47, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Who incarnated Himself as one of His subjects and endured a trial and
DC> What's 3 days to an eternal god, Al? Based on a 15 billion old
DC> universe, I think that equates to about 15 thousand_ths_ of a
DC> second.
AS> Probably. But does that matter? No matter whether a woman lives to be
AS> only twenty, or seventy-five, the hours or at most days of childbirth
AS> she might experience still remain excrutiatingly painful.
And, unlike your god, the mother remains in contact with her
child for the rest of her life.
DC> Why do you need a god to tell you that you did good or bad?
AS> I don't need a god to tell me that I did good or bad. I KNOW that.
Then, you do better than your god when it comes to dealing
with people. He has a bad habit of going Postal and offing
all that don't buy into his "godliness".
AS> I find it more comforting to have a God who doesn't CARE if you did
AS> good or bad...if you ask for forgiveness.
And, what if the forgiveness you forget to ask for is for
wearing clothes made of multi-fabrics and he sends you to hell?
... "You are suggesting that God is really behind this fiasco." Kelsey
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97 16:27:01
EID:c66f 222d8360
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da6255
-> On 11 Jan 97 06:43:11, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> pagan world killed many Christians like animals?
DC>
DC> With the xians more than making up the difference in body count
DC> with their own pograms[<-sic]
AS> Perhaps. Or we might observe the pagan habit of often exposing female
AS> children, as unwanted, and wonder how many millions were saved
AS> thereby, by Christians dropping that.
Did Gwenny ever leave one of her children out in the wilderness
to die?
Pagan is a broad term. You have attempted to paint all with the
one tiny brush you brought using only a single example.
As it stands, 1/2 of the world is given secondary class recognition
by the religion you hold.
... "One must let faith supercede reason" -- Glen Zilly
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Domino
|Sub: Christ-Like
|Date: 13 Jan 97 16:34:32
EID:c74f 222d8440
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da6418
-> On 11 Jan 97 18:38:16, Domino got back to Dan Ceppa
Do> Have you ever thought that maybe it's not a Deity that's allowing
Do> anything, that we're allowing everything?
DC> Of course we are. We shape the world around us into what
DC> we want it to be.
Do> Then stop asking people why their God allows anything.
Why not? They believe in the god or gods? As such, those
"god(s)" shape their view of reality.
DC> will is overshadowed by the same book's thinly disguised
DC> threats.
Do> Actually, it never says you *can't*. It says what will happen if you
Do> *do*. You still have free will.
"You have the free will to do whatever you want. However, if I
don't like what you do, say or think, you go to hell.
Now, either change your views or I get to send you to hell."
Does that sound like free will to you?
... God is just as compassionate as the people who created him.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christian Dating Service
|Date: 13 Jan 97 16:39:41
EID:826a 222d84e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da654d
-> On 11 Jan 97 09:57:27, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
dc> And that creep has had at least 2 round trips trips for the "cure".
FR> The one I reported this morning had ___FIVE___.
He should have been castrated and executed the first time around.
dc> is an admission that the church not only has a problem, it has
dc> a major problem.
FR> Yes. I heard yesterday that they also admit nuns to the facility.
FR> Nuns which sexually mollest boys and girls. Too lovely.
When will these assholes learn that they are the cause for
this abuse? Instead, they will insist that they are the "cure
for all of the problems of the world", as they attempt to
fuck the next generation, figuratively and literally.
... Religious belief - As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Tiger Eyes
|Sub: FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 13 Jan 97 16:50:34
EID:3364 222d8640
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da67da
-> On 11 Jan 97 08:28:25, Tiger Eyes got back to Dan Ceppa
TE> While scalping some dumb white man, Tiger Eyes told Dan.....
Seems like you missed this time and you are the one running
around without any hair.
TE>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations
DC> sell off all the clams, net the salmon rivers and build the
DC> biggest gambling casinos.
TE> Hey, you forgot Bingo halls.
Nope. I wasn't going to through in all of the evil things that
Indians do in one post. I'm not Al Schroeder.
TE> Well, I have to admit that you got me there.
Of course I did. I'm not an appologist for any group of
people. You, however, attempt to do just that.
TE> it goes to building up the community,(housing, parks and etc.) and to
TE> the Native American College Fund.
Did you ever figure out that there are more than one single Indian
group in your "Native American Group"? Did it ever dawn on you
that each group has different ideas as to what an "American
Indian" is?
TE> I couldn't have gone to school without it.
So, did you bother to learn something, or just go to school?
And (you're gonna love this) did you graduate just because
your were an American Indian?
... Compost...because a rind is a terrible thing to waste!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GET SPECIFIC
|Date: 13 Jan 97 17:22:17
EID:1908 222d8ac0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da6f49
-> On 11 Jan 97 13:25:13, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> the biggist joke he played was on the Jews, as he stole their
DC> religion's background to found his.
AS> Again, not proven. He certainly used Jewish background, and made some
Of course he did. That was his revenge on the Pharisees.
AS> changes to suit the changing circumstances (like circumcision). That
AS> doesn't mean that he was ignorant from the traditions he was
AS> departing from.
Moreso, in that those traditions were part and parcel to the
the religion he was parodying.
DC> Now, Al, maybe you will see that Saul was a proponent of the
DC> Jerusalem Church but used the background to start his own cult.
AS> It's possible. But if so, there is little evidence of it.
Such little evidence in that the Jersalem Church died at
the time of Massada, well into the period that Saul was
active as a "member" of that very same cult? The cult
that he was the leader(?)?
DC> church that Saul founded. Other than stealing the name of
DC> that church's founder, Saul has nothing to do with the running
DC> of the Jerusalem Church.
AS> Then surely he would have warned the Corinthians, Collossians, etc.,
AS> not to heed the machinations of the Jerusalem Church...instead, he
AS> claimed friendship with Peter and James.
Of course he did! As with the stealing of the rest of his bible
from the Jews, it helped him in that he wasn't the founder,
but the "good old boy". After all, you forget that Saul was
taken on the carpet for his heresies. That is how he gets
around them.
AS> Were there differences between Paul and the Jerusalem Church?
AS> Undoubtedly. Are they so different as to constitute two different
AS> religions? Unproven.
Fully evidenced. Saul's only claim to Judaisim and it's antiquities
are via Jesuah bar Joseph. Read Saul's works. You will see that
he not only was not a real Jew, he never followed the teachings
of his godling.
... "I'm a biblical scholar, so I can send you all to hell!"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Indians
|Date: 13 Jan 97 17:25:30
EID:10e0 222d8b20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da700a
-> On 11 Jan 97 09:02:43, Gwenny The Pooh got back to Dan Ceppa
TE>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations
DC> Yep, around here, they are all bickering over who gets to sell off all
DC> the clams, net the salmon rivers and build the biggest gambling
GTP> Shows they are quick learners.
Sure does. It shows that they will take the easy way out
and claim sovereignty over anything that they can make a
buck on and not have to work.
As you were saying?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Tiger Eyes
|Sub: Native Americans
|Date: 13 Jan 97 17:31:14
EID:e44d 222d8be0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da7162
-> On 11 Jan 97 07:57:08, Tiger Eyes got back to J.J. Hitt
TE> Not all of us are like you J.J.....I mean when your parents dumped you
TE> off at the local orphanage, for being a freak of humanity, they really
TE> didn't know that you would be so hurt by it. I feel so sorry for your
TE> parents.
Try as you might, you are missing the proper follow through. I
might be a factor of your ancestory.
TE> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations,
See! The were always out to kill and/or enslave the other
tribes.
"Here: I've got an island that you can buy, cheap!" Said
to Peter Minuet upon his landing on Manhattan.
... 9 out of 10 rotweillers prefer Jehovah's Witnesses.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Native Americans
|Date: 13 Jan 97 17:32:38
EID:304c 222d8c00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da71b6
-> On 11 Jan 97 07:57:08, Tiger Eyes got back to J.J. Hitt
JJH> You actually know your ancestry?
TE> Yeah I do, and unlike you...my ancestral tree branches.
Must be a branch of the Sequoia. In fact, it has to be!
... "The fossil record, when played backwards, proves evolution": F Rice
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 13 Jan 97 17:35:50
EID:4663 222d8c60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da7276
-> On 11 Jan 97 16:42:49, Ed Mills got back to J.J. Hitt
JH> Five of a Kind I'm not at all sure, but we'll see one before
JH> too much more time passes.
EM> Did you see where Rod "witty signoff quotes" Swift got some
EM> responses from the Mooth-O-Matic? I'd call that five of a
EM> kind.
THAT'S THE DEFINITION!!!!
Nice to see you found your way back into the fray!
... Frankenstein's monster in Jerusalem = Scaring the bejeezus of Nazareth
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 12 Jan 97 17:02:00
EID:64ed 222c8840
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 32d98b23
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d4e3f8
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about Quote:
DC> I have, Lee. You are a Sewage Wennie trying to use a bunch of
DC> mumbo jumbo to allay the fear you have that your god doesn't
DC> exist.
LW> Speaking of mumbo jumbo, only Fredric surpasses you out in using lots
LW> of emotionally loaded words to attack those who don't happen to agree
LW> with your opinions.
DC> Do you need me to translate it into pre-school level for you to
DC> understand?
Beside the point, as usual. You haven't said anything I don't understand
yet--except a few times when your sentences were so ungrammatical that it
was
hard to know for sure.
I'm not talking about the _level_ of your writing. I'm talking about its
emotional tone.
DC> I stand by my statement that you are afraid that your god doesn't
DC> exist.
I hope you're having fun standing there.
Do you have any evidence for this claim?
--Lee
... Here's whatever you were looking for:
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: so...now what?
|Date: 12 Jan 97 17:04:00
EID:0863 222c8880
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 32d98b24
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d4e594
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about so...now what?:
-> On 06 Jan 97 19:00:00, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
LW> In a strict scientific sense, it is not a theory, since it is not
===> ^^^^^^^^^^
LW> amenable to scientific demonstration. It is a theory in a broader sense
===> ^^^^^^^^^^
DC> Then it's not a theory, Lee. Stop presenting it as one.
LW> Theory n., pl. -ries. 1. a. Systematically organized knowledge
LW> applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances; especially,
a
DC> [..]
LW> Gee, Dan. There is more than one definition of "theory." How about in
LW> your dictionary?
DC> Gee, Lee, are you tired of shooting yourself in the foot? Next
DC> time, use a shotgun. It'll save time making all of those holes
DC> as you won't have to reload your mouth as often.
If you had said "Then it is not a scientific theory, Lee," I would have
agreed
with you. But that is not what you said.
Do I take this to mean you think that despite the fact that there are other
definitions of "theory" besides scientific theory, if it is not a scientific
theory it is not a theory?
--Lee
... Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: so...now what?
|Date: 12 Jan 97 17:09:00
EID:0863 222c8920
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 32d98b25
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d4e64b
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about so...now what?:
DC> Take a look at his last lines, Lee:
RC> the term "theory" to describe it. Hector had it pegged, I think,
RC> when he noted your "theory" was merely a metaphysical masturbation.
LW> I should have known this would be your response. Ignore the relevant
LW> part of the message and quote the irrelevant parts.
DC> That is the relevant part of the message, Lee.
I already replied to that part of the message. It was not the part that
was
relevant to the conversation I was having with you about whether I had stated
I
did not believe the theory I was presenting.
LW> I'll send the relevant part to you in a separate message. It's an
LW> experiment, really.
DC> Tell you what: I read it _after_ you perform Hector's Experiment.
This is classic! "If you don't play the game _my_ way, I'm not playing!"
At least you openly admit that you are unwilling even to look at the evidence
I
presented.
If you won't look at the evidence on such a minor point as whether I have
stated that I do not believe the theory we were discussing, how can I expect
you to look at any other evidence?
--Lee
... Evidence, scmevidence. Take the plunge!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Why don't we see God[sic]
|Date: 12 Jan 97 17:15:00
EID:1be8 222c89e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 32d98b26
Here's what David Rice said to Lee Woofenden about Why don't we see God[sic]:
DR> Don't "usually?!" Since when has anyone seen gods, "non-usually"
DR> or otherwise?
LW> You reject all the eye-witness accounts,
DR> One cannot "reject" what does not exist, nor "reject" evidence
DR> that has never ever ever been presented. By all means, do
DR> produce your "eye-witness" if you have one.
It would be absurd for you to claim that no one has ever given written or
verbal accounts of having seen God. They are in the sacred books of almost
every culture. In the Bible alone there are perhaps a dozen detailed accounts
of encounters with God, and many more passing references. There are thousands
of them scattered throughout current popular book and magazine literature
on
angels, near death experiences, and other religious and spiritual topics.
The question is not whether eye-witness accounts exist. The question is
whether
you or I believe that they are genuine or that they represent lies,
hallucinations, or some other form of error.
LW> so there's not much point in discussing it.
DR> Translation: your false, baseless assertion is know by you to be
DR> wrong, therefore you refuse to defend it and thus make you
DR> appear even more the fool.
Which assertion are you talking about? The one quoted above is that you
reject
all eye-witness accounts of seeing God. Are you saying this is false? That
you
do _not_ reject the eye-witness accounts of seeing God?
DR> If my translation is wrong, you need only produce some evidence
DR> for those gods you assert exist. I will happily retract my
DR> skepticism in that arena.
When did I "assert" that "gods" exist?
--Lee
... You learn something useless every day.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: symbolism
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:25:33
EID:786e 222d5320
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0dbd
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1d619382
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, ROBERT!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
ROBERT say to GWENNY:
GTP>> You told us to stop her from eating Twinkies (there's that
GTP>> phallic symbol you adore so much).
RC> A Twinkie is a phallic symbol? How about a Little Debbie's snack cake?
Okay, maybe it's a cigar. I don't know about one, but two snack
cakes do suggest something.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... Thank all the gods I'm an atheist.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: I'm BAAAAAAACK!
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:26:08
EID:1003 222d5340
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0de0
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d87230
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Al!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Al say to Gwenny:
PB>> Just thought I'd let you know that I'm back after a nearly-three-year
PB>> hiatus.
GTP>> I don't remember you. Doesn't mean anything, I'm getting old.
AS> Well, if nothing else, he's Becke's new husband...
Oh, I know that. I meant I didn't remember him posting in here before.
He and Becke trade off on the IRC.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... Sticks/stones break bones, but whips/chains excite me.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Pass the Cup of crimson wonder (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: 2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:27:39
EID:41da 222d5360
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0e85
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d7b29b
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, David!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
David say to Gwenny:
GP>> You can. Just accept yourself. Give yourself a talking to, as though
GP>> you were giving advice to a friend. If you really can't accept your
GP>> weight, change it. If you really can't change it, accept it. It's
as
GP>> easy as that.
DW> Can't take your own advice, eh?
GP>> Well, according to inbred boy, David Worrell, I'm full of shit and
GP>> there's no scientific support for my hypothesis.
DW> Have you posted any such support? Until you do, you're full of shit.
I suggested you read an article from the US News Webpage.
DW> Oh, and you might take the time to *clearly* define your "hypothesis."
DW> You will be held to this definition.
Let's see, wasn't it something like "empathy could just be a hypersensitivy
to smell and body language." Now, what is so unclear about that? Maybe
that you seem to be unable to read what is written before you spew vitriol?
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore, (C)rash?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Avalon is rising, to fall no more (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Warring christanic factio
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:29:33
EID:d23b 222d53a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0f76
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 738d7cc5
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Martin!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Martin say to Gwenny:
GtP>> Silly person. I didn't say sentient cabbages. I said that I
GtP>> read about cabbages responding to outside stimuli. This is a
GtP>> well established fact, that plants to respond. Maybe they've
MG> I must interject that these high school type experiments lack the proper
MG> controls to be believable. It may well be that plants respond to music
in
MG> some manner, but there are many more envronmental factors that must
be
MG> controlled for before the conclusions are drawn.
Alright. You are the geneticist. Have you never seen any evidence that
plants respond to external stimuli? As I said, I've read a number of articles.
I have been doing some web searches and will be happy to share what I find.
I will continue to maintain, however, that plants respond by changing their
growth patterns and, when I can find some of the things I remember reading
in addition to the cabbage story, even perhaps even by ways measurable by
electrodes.
MG> Besdiesw, I don't want to sing "La Donna Mobile'" to them. I wnat to
MG> eat them.
I have a nice Diefenbachia here for you. But only if you
share it with David FIRST.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... REALITY.SYS not found: loading hidden file CONSPIRE.EXE
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Kali of the Pooh-bears (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:33:27
EID:fe2a 222d5420
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0f96
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 738d7ed2
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Martin!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Martin say to Gwenny:
GtP>>>> Rumor has it that she and the Gates of Delirim are in
GtP>>>> Denver.
DC>>> OK, just what, is, who, are "the Gates of Delirim"?
GtP>> Starwyn's BBS.
MG> "Gates of Delirium"
Martin, the idea of you correcting my spelling has brightened
my whole day.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... I'm not a cultist. I just like sacrificing virgins for fun.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Traditional Christian wea
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:34:01
EID:5f7e 222d5440
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da103d
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 738e0b0e
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Martin!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Martin say to Gwenny:
GtP>> Hmmm, I'm not familiar with that. Anything like grits?? (Wild
GtP>> runs screaming into the night) (Can you believe he was raised in
GtP>> Virginia and doesn't like grits. )
MG> He must be a communist.
Nope one of the most interesting syntheses of anarchist/bourgeoisie I have
ever seen.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore, (F)ornicate it!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: <> The Point at Pooh Corner <> Woodland Park, CO <> (1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Why do you NEED
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:36:47
EID:fe89 222d5480
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da1065
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:
SH>> Gestapo interrogators usually have reasons for the questions they ask
SH>> too.
GtP>> Answer the question, what are sponge cats?
ML> My guess is that they're like chamois dogs and work at car
ML> washes.
He claims to have posted what they are but hasn't reposted it.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... Abort the Gay Whales with a Nuclear Handgun for Comrade Jesus
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Reverse peristalsis.
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:37:34
EID:3abb 222d54a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da10a9
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:
DC>>> Then, John, what is "negative drinking"?
ML>> Drink a quart of ClanMcVladTheImpaler in 60 seconds and find
ML>> out...
GtP>> According to a letter in the January National Geographic:
GtP>> "Scotch is the most successful spirit in the wold. The value of
GtP>> these alcoholic exports in 1993 was more than two billion pounds (3
GtP>> billion US dollars).
ML> Of course it's a leading export (although "deport" is a term more
ML> apt). Who wants that stuff sitting around taking up valuable shelf
ML> space?
Well, at least I can take comfort in the fact that you had to think about
that one before you came up with a smart reply.
GtP>> In France, for example, more Scotch is now consumed in a
GtP>> month than cognac in a year."
ML> They eat snails and amphibian appendages there as well. That bespeaks
ML> volumes.
You got me there.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... Be flexible. Some things just take time.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Remember -- Rome was Christian when it fell. (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Jimbo's 2-D.
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:38:39
EID:950c 222d54c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da10d9
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:
ML>>> Give us time. You've been around for over 40 years and science
ML>>> still hasn't figured you out.
JS>>> Too deep, eh? :)
ML>> Deep as a saucer, sharp as a bagel.
GtP>> Well, bagel cuts are taking over as the number one injury seen in
GtP>> ERs.
ML> Y'know...somehow it's poetically justifiable that Jimbo is suffering
ML> from multiple bagel lacerations.
And they'd become infected and rotted his brain?
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... "Aren't you supposed to be dead?" -Kirk ST:II
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Not shampoo, the real Pooh! (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: "sucking up"
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:40:12
EID:91a0 222d5500
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da1193
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:
GtP>> Oh, I want that one. I am so tired of that bumper sticker with the
GtP>> fundy fish eating the Darwin fish that says "The Truth will prevail."
GtP>> I want a sticker that has the Darwin fish cooking the Fundy fish on
a
GtP>> campfire that says, "The truth DID prevail."
ML> I got tired of that as well and ginned up a little picture (that hangs
ML> in my lab to annoy the fundy techs) of a thresher shark labeled
ML> "science" about to devour the most fundified Xtain fish.
I swear I'm gonna make a shirt for my kids to wear to school with my idea
on it. The irony of it is that the fundy fish is a very old symbol for
female genitals.
ML> I uploaded the thing to Steve Q's board, but he's said nada about it.
ML> Ahhh...he's probably steamed about the "dinocat" .gif I sent him...
Dinocat???
ML> The scienceshark goes well with my "Darwin fish" coffee mug and my
ML> "Dr. Science 'I know more than you do'" gimme cap.
Subtleties not a long suit with you, is it?
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... Hestia does it on the Hearth!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:42:49
EID:9d44 222d5540
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da11e1
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:
DW>> Well, technically speaking, Buddha isn't a god (he never claimed to
DW>> be, IIRC). Not that that stops lots of people from worshipping him
as
DW>> one anyhow.
GtP>> True. I believe most Buddhists are quite close kin to atheists.
ML> Well, there *was* this batch of Siberian Buddhists and a
ML> couple of befoozled atheists...
ML> ...but *that's* another story...
Oh, come on, tell me. I love long. . .stories.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... New Borg Movie: The Lonely Borg: Myth or Tragedy?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Carl Sagan
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:43:58
EID:d892 222d5560
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da12ba
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:
MB>> Hardly. At most, all the "studies" will do is factor one more
MB>> possible risk into the equation when decisions are being made.
MB>> If people know the risk of taking crack and take it anyway,
MB>> what makes you think that people will absolutely pass on the
MB>> notion of an abortion just because there is a small statistical
MB>> probability of future health consequences involved?
GtP>> Forget crack. How about cigarettes and bourbon.
ML> Gag. Cigars and bourbon...aye, that's the ticket, lassie...
Cigars aren't so bad, but pipes are much nicer and much more sexy.
As for bourbon, well, I might have some squirrled away that someone gave
us on our wedding. . .that was four years ago and it's probably still full.
GtP>> My motto, Don't drink, don't smoke, eat right. . .die anyway.
ML> Perfect health is merely the slowest form of dying.
Good health or no, no one in family seems to last past 75. What do you
think, should I try to die on the day before my 75th by crashing during
a drag race that follows a week long orgy and mead swilling??
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... Me....a skeptic? I presume you have proof..
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Pass the Cup of crimson wonder (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:47:37
EID:4791 222d55e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da145d
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:
NC>>> Yeppers!!! All living things do respond to outside stimuli don't
NC>>> they... Emphasis on living... ;-}
GtP>>> Now, are you going to stop eating, just because of this?
NC>>> nope not likely... We still have to eat to live don't we...
KB>> Yes, but we don't need to eat flesh. You can live a perfectly
KB>> happy life as a vegetarian.
GtP>> Maybe YOU can, I can't. Seriously, I can't get all the chemicals
I
GtP>> need from legumes (besides the fact they make me ill). So it's meat
GtP>> or be miserable for me.
ML> My diagnosis of bilateral evagenous diverticulitis has, sadly, removed
ML> me from the bovine, porcine and ovine predator list. I must now make
ML> content with the killing of the occasional domesticated barnyard fowl;
ML> eviscerating and excoriating it and eating it's flesh after being
ML> charred on an open mesquite fire.
I figure that, statistically, just about everyone will suffer from some
digestive disorder in their life. I have a very mild hiatal hernia which
causes me mild discomfort if I only eat toast and coffee for breakfast or,
horrors, chili. (I think it's the beans) Having satisfied statistical
probability, I can go on doing whatever I want. So, how serious is
this diverticulitis?? Are they curable without surgical intervention?
I looked it up in my cheapass medical guide and it wasn't very enlightening.
ML> I'd kill for a 64 oz. porterhouse, blood rare. Unfortunately,
ML> it'd probably return the favor.
I'm still confused as to why meat would be a problem. Wouldn't any food
catch in the little pouches??
ML> Oh, and I take gobs of vitamins, minerals and amino acids.
ML> I wish they made them in beef flavor though...
Yeah, because you can't get them from the natural source, cow/deer/bison/pig
flesh. I hope you feel better.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... To reformat a CD-ROM use steel wool and heavy pressure.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:54:23
EID:ae15 222d56c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da14ab
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 058ebc78
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Fredric!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Fredric say to Gwenny:
JS>> Whatever it means, it was spoken by some 'doctor' and not me. (post
so
jS>> old I don't remember who), but of course I don't agree with the
JS>> sentiment, silly.
FR> The stupid fuck wants to demand that because he posts under an alias
(even
FR> though when he was posting as "Doctor" Staal it was a pathetic alias)
he
FR> doesn't have to answer for his words.
It was supposed to be an alias? How stupid does he think we are?
gtp>> You liar. You know very well, because I posted it
gtp>> twice, that "the doctor" in question was YOU posting
gtp>> as Dr. James N. Staal. Still a liar for JAYSUS, I see.
FR> He's a fucking Promisekeeper -- there's no salvation for him.
True. I've met some. I'd call him Neandertal, but I think they were more
evolved.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... Cross those feet! We only have three nails.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: WiCCA
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:55:37
EID:e404 222d56e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da1873
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Damien!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Damien say to Gwenny:
GTP>> I noticed. Why don't sysops put new users on HOLD for a week or so
GTP>> and check to see if they have the brain to be allowed to post at all.
GTP>> Hey, I may ask Wild if he can design something like that.
DW> One sysop I know had a policy of not allowing any users to use Fidonet
DW> echoes until they filled out an application and had shown themselves
to
DW> be halfway intellegent on the local bases. More sysops should do that.
Sounds like a good idea. Maybe a little spelling test, some history, and
grammar.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... Sticks/stones break bones, but whips/chains excite me.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Avalon is rising, to fall no more (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: December 25
|Date: 13 Jan 97 11:14:11
EID:b866 222d59c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da19f2
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32d7f500
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Steve!
While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Steve say to Gwenny:
SQ>>>>> Perhaps we can get Sean McCullough to come up with
SQ>>>>> "For the most part, atheists do not do good things" in Classical
SQ>>>>> Latin. Sean, how about it?
GtP>> I'll call him this morning.
SQ> Thanks...I'll be curious to see Jones's finest rendered into a Classical
SQ> language like Latin.
I'm talking to him at this moment, I will relay his translation asap.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny
... A moment's insight is sometimes worth a life's experience.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Why do you NEED
|Date: 12 Jan 97 10:18:49
EID:a0cc 222c5240
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32db2f15
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d50260
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Dan Ceppa, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 09 Jan
97 09:36:16:
SS> The question is: What is a sponge cat?
SH> No, "DC" (who I think is Dan Ceppa) appeared to be referring to a
SH> question about fucking.
SH> I don't remember being asked such a question.
DC> Of course you don't remeber, you stupid fundy. You are trained
DC> not to remember anything other than what your masters spoon
DC> feed you every Sunday.
DC> Let me refresh you aberrant memory:
DC> You were asked about what "sponge cats" were. You then claimed
DC> that you were being asked for the answer by "a Gestapo method".
DC> In the interim, you have avoided both answering what the fuck are
DC> "sponge cats" and describing what the "gestapo tactics" used on
DC> your little mind were.
DC> Try answering both this time.
I've answered both of those, and neither of them was about fucking.
So how about you answering the question for a change.
Keep well,
Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734
... I love Dan - he makes ME seem normal!
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Puget macarena
|Date: 12 Jan 97 10:19:40
EID:55b2 222c5260
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32db2f16
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1caf9907
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to ROBERT CURRY, who wrote to STEVE HAYES on 07
Jan 97 11:44:18:
RC> ROFL! Would the question (which you neglected to identify) be your
RC> ridiculous demand to have people tell you something about those
RC> "sponge cats" you babble about while studiously refusing to define
RC> what the phrase means, if anything?
RC> If South Africa provides assistance for its mentally ill citizens,
RC> perhaps you could seek help from your government. Otherwise, you
RC> are only going to continue providing entertainment here in HolySmoke.
It seems that the chief form of entertainment here on Holy Smoke is demanding
answers to questions that have either already been answered, or that haven't
been asked.
By neglecting to identify the question, I was merely joining in the spirit
of things in this echo - when in Rome...
... The rest of ROBERT CURRY's mindless ad hominems deleted
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 13 Jan 97 20:25:24
EID:1716 222da320
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2dae3bc1
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d9c4d8
Hello David!
David Worrell wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
DW>> Nope. Agnostics need to grow some balls and climb down off
DW>> that fence. :)
MM> Hey... fence or no fence, how would you classify somebody who
MM> just don't care - one way or another?
DW> Apathetic?
So that is probably what I am - or Apatheistic, as Marilyn
Burge expressed it :-)
MM> Atheist means to me a person who has found the subject of
MM> religion important enough to become disenchanted and take
MM> an 'anti-stand' (in spite of any philological hair-splitting).
DW> Atheism is the default state, Mimi. We aren't born believing
DW> in gods.
Not as I see it. I am not an ANTI, simply a DONT-CARE-A-BIT.
The urge was never there. I see THAT as the default.
Interesting stuff, religion, but incomprehensible and basically
on exactly the same level as all kinds of fairy tales to me.
Funny and exiting to argue about, but not important enough to
incorporate in day-to-day decision making.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Mars
|Date: 13 Jan 97 17:16:53
EID:2eaa 222d8a00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf585
AS>> You're right...goddesses aren't common at all...
GtP>> Harumph! I sense some subtle sarcasm here.
AS> Not at all. Or maybe just a shade. There are quite a few women I consider
AS> at least near-goddesses.
GtP> Good save, Al.
Hey, I haven't been married for sixteen years without learning SOME
survival skills.
AS> Don't confuse me with one of the OTHER posters from Tennessee.
GtP> Never.
Thanks.
... Hot Fudge Sundae falls on a Tuesday this year.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: RE: MASTURBATION
|Date: 13 Jan 97 19:41:01
EID:3229 222d9d20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf586
GtP>> I have no problem with masturbation. I never had. I could never
GtP>> understand what the problem is.
AS> Well, for males, one must be careful not to leave stains on things...
BB> That's what towels are made for, Al..;)
Well, yes...but some might answer that some parts of an agreeable member
of the opposite sex are made for, also...
... A nudist is one who suffers from clothestrophobia.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: MIRACLE [1/2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97 17:39:31
EID:d43d 222d8ce0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf587
AS>I think my reply to Marty was swallowed when I had those problems with
the
> BBS I used to post from. By "word" I meant unit of language...it doesn't
> matter whether the medium is verbal, electrical, smell, whatever. The
> ability to coin new terms to fit the situation is VERY interesting, and
> very unlike the bulk of animalkind. I acknowledge your chimp example,
but
> note they are using human-derived sign language, not our own.
DR> Al,
DR> Darwin was correct about one thing for certain. There is a close
DR> relation between language capabilities and intellect. However, I
DR> don't know if I would be too quick to give too much credit to the
DR> talking apes just yet. And I am not saying that anyone here is doing
DR> that. I just feel that doing so give rise to the notion that there
DR> must be human-like language abilities within these "alleged" early
DR> progenitors of man. It is true that speech is only "one" of the
DR> garments that language wears to meet press. However, to conclude that
DR> an ape's newly formed "gimme-a-banana-gesticulation" is to be compared
DR> to our own level of thought communication is perfunctory cognition at
DR> best.
DR> Only when language becomes free of the immediate control of
DR> external stimuli does it become an instrument of reasoning in the true
DR> sense of the word. Can apes acquire human language capabilities?
DR> Well, has one ever asked for a banana when one was not present or had
DR> not just been brought up by someone else? Where is the proof of their
DR> capability of abstract thought?
I'm perhaps not the one to ask, but I believe that the chimps HAVE asked
for food, at least, when it's not present. But, not sure of that. I know
someone who would know, though. Sue?
... I'm an absolute, off-the-wall fanatical moderate.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: more babbling email
|Date: 13 Jan 97 17:44:46
EID:d84f 222d8d80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf588
RC> Are you proud of the fact that you have disgusted and
RC> thoroughly alienated him?
AS> That is your assertion, not his
RC> My assertion has the benefit of being accurate, a characteristic
RC> alien to many of yours.
Unfortunately for you, no it isn't.
AS> (at least addressed to me).
RC> What would be the point in addressing someone who doesn't listen?
Perhaps you should ask him that, since he addresses me a question IN THIS
VERY PACKET.
AS> If he was either, than that is his problem, not mine.
RC> It *was* his problem; he solved it.
He did indeed. He took some time out. He is back asking questions. Do you
have a problem with that?
AS> Are all of you proud for driving Jesse off?
RC> Who is "all of you?"
Many of the nontheists of the echo.
AS> Is there any blame attached to that? Hardly.
RC> I noticed several people express thankfulness and pleasure.
Yes.
AS> Jesse's a big boy, and his decisions are his own. Similarly,
AS> Curtis is a big boy, and HIS decisions are his own.
RC> So you aren't proud to have disgusted and alienated him. Gee, and
RC> here I thought you were getting commisions for driving people as far
RC> away from your religion as possible.
Are you seriously suggesting that Curtis is a ripe candidate for
conversion?
RC> Congratulations on the success of your approach.
Congratulations on your falling flat on your face. Too bad for you that
Curtis asked me a question in this very packet. ROFL!!!
... Wizard's Guild parking only. Violators will be toad!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: more babbling email
|Date: 13 Jan 97 19:35:25
EID:d84f 222d9c60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf589
AS> Dave Worrell similarly posting private email from Marilyn
AS> Burge as a rather involved tagline. Doubtless, to be
AS> consistent, you will defend that also.
RC> Doubtless you enjoy stirring as much shit as possible when it
RC> comes to Marilyn and anyone with whom she happens to have a dispute.
Tsk. A simple, "I do not back Worrell in that" would be more to the point.
Or "I do defend Worrell's right to do whatever he wants with private email
sent to him." Either would be fine.
Which for you?
AS> I keep it private, until the sender elects to tell me I can
AS> post it publicly. If you have different standards, again, no
AS> surprise.
RC> You know that my standards are to return any email that originated
RC> from a public thread in a public echo BACK into that public echo.
I do NOW.
RC> Why you should object to this has been a mystery.
I like to treat email as private.
AS> I do not reveal such if sent privately, unless the sender
AS> gives me permission.
RC> Then how do you account for your gaffe with Judith? Did she give
RC> you her permission?
(A) she did not say it in email, but among several in #irc, and (B) I
acknowledged the mistake, and apologized to Judith. If the two were
comparable, I would expect an apology from you, just as I apologized to
Judith. I do NOT expect that, of course. I know you too well.
RC> There's the difference between you and me:
RC> Your policy is absolute, and you absolutely fuck it up. My policy
RC> is to use my judgement in each situation as it arises. Thus far
Certainly. Regardless what the feelings of the other is, you will use as
YOUR judgement sees fit. As Worrell did with Marilyn's.
RC> the only complaint that I've ever had is from YOU bitching without
RC> any cause (unless you think that my policy differing from yours
RC> is somehow cause to bitch -- I wouldn't put that past you).
Not at all; I am simply remarking on our different standards.
AS> Even if it were all much the same information as posted
AS> publicly, it would be kept private, unless I asked the sender.
RC> Then how do you account for revealing the information that Judith
RC> specifically asked you NOT to reveal? I think I'll stick with
RC> a policy that is less absolute but better suited to encouraging
RC> reasonable consideration for each case as it comes up.
As long as YOU decide it is reasonable, Robert. And I apologized to
Judith. The two are not comparable, because of course there is no (nor do
I expect) apology from you.
AS> It was sent privately, not publicly. As I said above. Then
AS> it is, ipso facto, private.
RC> 100% wrong. NOTHING you send on the internet is private unless you
RC> encrypt it first.
Even that is not private...if there is no trust given the one you send the
message to.
AS> In other words, YOU choose to continue it. Very well.
RC> Well, apparantly we BOTH choose to continue it. Certainly I have
RC> no objections to your making a fool of yourself.
Even to the point of showing the way...by example?
AS> It is you who keep on reminding others how it is obviously
AS> folly to send you email, because YOU will be the judge
AS> of what is confidential, not they.
RC> And those who trust my judgement on the matter do so with complete
RC> confidence.
No; I trusted you with that much. I will not do so again. Or do you want
to qualify the "those" to mean, "everybody BUT Al"? A principle that is
held save when it is CONVENIENT for you to disregard it isn't much of one.
RC> It would be folly to send email to someone whose judgement one
RC> does NOT trust, if one sends something of a private, personal and
RC> confidential nature.
RC> Those who send long, boring rehashes of their public posts, as
RC> you did, Al, have no cause to complain if their rehashes are returned
RC> to the echo whence they originated to begin with.
Keep justifying it to yourself, Robert. Maybe you will eventually believe
it.
AS> Robert, if you sent me an email saying Clinton won the
AS> election...obviously no surprise...I would not reproduce
AS> it without asking you first.
RC> If you mean to demonstrate a thoughtless and unbending obedience to
RC> some absolute rule, this is charming. But so what?
Just observing the differences in standards.
... !edis gnorw eht morf siht ta gnikool era uoY
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: More grist from the web [2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97 18:08:49
EID:b585 222d9100
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58a
AS> Wellllll....we don't have claims by living witnesses (or even purported
AS> living witnesses) of Odin hanging self-implaed by his own spear by
AS> Yggsdrasil, within historical times. As opposed to even the claims
of
GT> Yggdrasil. You were close.{g} IMO that story is generally
GT> considered to be allegorical - the price paid for knowledge - rather
GT> than literal history, as the JC yarn is.
I agree on both points; that one is allegorical for paying the price for
knowledge (the giving up the eye for knowledge at Mirmir's well is another
example)...and that the JC yarn is, at least in part, literal history.
AS> witness by James, John, Peter, etc. within historical times. Most
AS> mythologies are set in a historical neverland. Instead, we have a Man,
AS> living in a decade that can roughly be dated, yet doing things that
are
AS> usually only assigned to people of a mythical Golden AGe.
GT> IOW somebody tried to take a collection of myths and 'baptise' them
by
GT> putting in real, or at least real-sounding, names. Okay, I'll accept
GT> that.
Hmmmm. Or something actually happened that was the culmination and
fulfillment for what all the myths were metaphors for.
AS> Certainly Jesus conforms to the model of the Hero of a Thousand Faces.
AS> But a better question might be why the myth of a dying and resurrected
god
AS> is so common throughout mankind. It's almost as if we all had a universal
AS> yearning for such a being.
AS> Almost as if we were built with such a yearning.
GT> And the Jeshua story was one more attempt to capitalize on that
GT> yearning. Okay - makes sense. Actually, the dying and resurrected
GT> god myth has it's very obvious root in the natural annual cycle; the
GT> new green plants born in the spring, ripening to maturity in the
GT> summer, and dying in the fall, leaving behind them seeds to lie
GT> dormant under the Earth during the cold winter, until they are reborn
GT> again the next spring.
Hmmm. But that works better for the pheonix, surely? No one pretends the
old planet is the same as the new plant.
AS> No; but it doesn't disprove it either. And it rather puts a different
spin
AS> to turning to a religion SIMPLY because of the Heaven eventually offered.
GT> That's hardly unique, either, Al. Almost all religions have their
GT> own version of heaven; the Blessed Realm, the Summerlands, Valhalla,
GT> and so on.
Certainly. Although oftentimes it is a late developement. The early Jews
believed mainly in a misty Sheol; Heaven came later...just as the early
Greeks believed mainly in a Hades where the ghost of glorious Achilles
moaned it was better to be a living slave than King of the Dead (The
Oddyssey) and later developed the Blessed Isles, where the heroes and
truly good go...
... Ok, I pulled the pin. Now what? Where are you going?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 13 Jan 97 19:37:32
EID:242e 222d9ca0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58b
AS> RH> Her answer was that she would not remember me. Now, since we have
AS> What???? Where does she get that?
AS> RH> been married twice as long as she was single, she's going to wander
> RH> around Heaven wondering just who the Hell she IS.
AS> Do I get the odd feeling she puts a lot of presure on you to join the
> church...?
DR> Al,
DR> This little minuet with Roger and the Missuz has and will
DR> continue to create the sort of questions that are asked of us by
DR> non-believers. Not being all knowing creatures we are hard pressed
to
DR> answer them. It's a little disconcerting to see that they are asked
DR> within the bonds of matrimony as in this scenario. That's because they
DR> are unequally yoked and thus will have great problems as a result.
Well, Roger has been, as he said, married to her twice as long as she was
single, so their "unequal yoke" has survived a lot of things.
DR> Preamble aside, I will assay to provide some modicum of resolve
DR> to this quandary via perspective. I do not believe that she will not
DR> remember her husband no more than I believe she will not remember *all*
DR> parts of her incarnate life. The reflection upon the incarnate life
is
DR> what will eternally chasten those condemned to Hell and will,
DR> conversely, delight those who make it to Heaven. Her delight in her
DR> incarnate life, when in Heaven, will be in the knowledge she made the
DR> correct choice.
Ummmm. In all honesty, cold comfort when your spouse is roasting in Hell.
I have been married nearly seventeen years, and would hate to contemplate
same.
DR> Does this mean that she will not be saddened if Roger should not
DR> be there with her in God's glorious presence? No. Even God Himself
is
DR> grieved at man's choice to reject Him and thus be damned by his own
DR> repudiative nature. That is not to say that her compassion based
DR> twinges, no matter how strong, will negate any chance of her enjoying
DR> Heaven though. If they could, then Heaven isn't all that The Word says
DR> it is, right?
Well, yeah, but that still doesn't really compensate them for the
knowledge of what might have been. And of course, I am by no means as
sure as Roger's wife that he will end up anyplace but Heaven.
... What we have here, is a NEED to communicate!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: More grist from the web [2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97 19:45:43
EID:a5e7 222d9da0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58c
AS> Asking forgiveness is extortion???
DC> It is when the alternative is an eternity of pain and suffering.
AS> Or an eternity of bliss and happiness.
DC> "Here: Eat this jelly doughnut or I'll kill you."
"Okay, here are two doors. One leads to a smorgasboard of delicious food,
and beautiful music, and fine books, and pretty ladies. The other leads
you to a sheer dropoff and you will die, horribly, falling twenty stories.
"Your choice."
AS> Wellllll....we don't have claims by living witnesses (or even
AS> purported living witnesses) of Odin hanging self-implaed by his own
AS> spear by Yggsdrasil, within historical times. As opposed to even
DC> You don't have independently corroborated claims for your myth,
DC> either.
Of the actual Resurrection and such? Granted. It's still light years ahead
of what most ancient religions claimed. We don't have independently
corroboated claims for a LOT of things that happened in the ancient world.
But at least we have claims of supposed eyewitnesses, which is more than
we can say for, say, the Trojan War, written by Homer, some seven hundred
years after the event...
Yet later confirmed by archeology in some respects.
AS> times. Most mythologies are set in a historical neverland. Instead,
we
AS> have a Man, living in a decade that can roughly be dated, yet doing
DC> I told you Saul wasn't a good Judaic scholar. I didn't say he
DC> was stupid.
No indeed; in fact, a rather learned man in some ways, quoting from at
least two pagan works. Too stupid to spread stories in places like Corinth
that a merchant or soldier couldn't debunk upon going back to Palestine.
DC> current cult of the UFO nuts as well as religious fanatics. Does
DC> that make their cult the "one true cult"?
AS> No; but it doesn't disprove it either. And it rather puts a different
DC> If you can't disprove it, why not join?
Because I think it extremely unlikely; if alien civlizations do exist
(which I do believe) they would not spend the enormous amounts of energy
to travel from star to star, only to mutilate cattle and give another
species' females rather intimate exams. Crossing light years to examine
the genitalia of cats might be a useful analogy. It makes no sense. When
the aliens come, I doubt if we'll have much doubt of it. They'll be a
little hard to ignore.
... Please, no deja vu; I don't want to go through that again.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: NEVER BE GODLY
|Date: 13 Jan 97 18:36:33
EID:c9c1 222d9480
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58d
DC> You seem pretty brassiere of yourself.
MH> So? You wanna make something of tit?
DC> I noticed a halter in your typing of your reply. Perhaps you
DC> need someone to underwire it and keep them separated. Cross
DC> my heart!
MH> Well, that gives me a lift.
DC> Nothing like raising a cup or two.
AS> Jog my mammary, what were we talking about? (Or better yet, jog one
AS> of Courtney Cox's mammaries...)
DC> I'll do that and perhaps get back to on how that uplifted her. }:-)
Sorry, I'm reading my kids the story of Hansel and Gretel. We just got to
the part where they got to the Gingerbread House, and the witch says,
"Nipple, nipple, like a mouse, who's been nippling at my house..."
... Freudian Slips'R'Us
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: petty shit
|Date: 13 Jan 97 18:43:46
EID:0643 222d9560
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58e
AS>> If you regarded it as junk, why did you ever bother to try to
AS>> respond
RC> Already answered that one. Have you forgotten?
AS> Force of habit or temporary insanity, I believe.
RC> So your repetition of the question was completely needless, as you
RC> obviously can remember the answer.
Then why bother to rage at me for replying to your email...in
email...which was sent by "force of habit" or "mass insanity". I made the
mistake of thinking you were in control of your faculties.
AS> Neither of which I am to blame for, surely?
RC> Did someone blame you?
Oddly enough, someone on this echo actually castigized my answering
questions sent to me in email as "junk email". Hard to believe, I know.
... "Sheesh! Try to do something nice, and you get flamed!" -- Joan of Arc
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Population Growth. [1]
|Date: 13 Jan 97 18:45:02
EID:2e67 222d95a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58f
MB> Laurie is rather ethically challenged, isn't he?
ML> Is that PC-speak for "incredibly ignorant"?
MB> No, it's grown-up talk for "dishonest as hell."
That too.
... Do not disturb. Already disturbed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: waiting, still
|Date: 13 Jan 97 19:22:01
EID:0e59 222d9ac0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf590
AS> Simply making sure of where you stand, Robert.
RC> What does where I stand have to do with your claim that atheism
RC> contradicts itself?
Are you not an atheist?
AS> If you are not a strict materialist, what do you credit which
AS> is immaterial?
RC> Mappings and numbers, and games and relations,
RC> Regular polytopes, odd permutations,
RC> Cluster points, boundaries, fields and rings,
RC> Abstractions are some of my favorite things.
And do you believe they have an actual existence, in the Pythogorean
sense? Or are they merely labels we put on things?
AS> Then do YOU, as an atheist, conversely accept the supernatural?
RC> You forgot to say "Excellent!" (Your usual substitute for "Oops!")
That's because it was not excellent. You didn't clarify your stand.
RC> To answer your question, no, I don't believe there's a monster in
RC> the closet. You may (if you like) call me a naturalist, as opposed
RC> to a supernaturalist. The latter is a position of pointless idiocy.
Then, back to the original point. If you are a naturalist, you believe
that everything must be contained within nature...including the surity of
our conclusions. Which is a product of nature. (i.e., brain cells, for
instance.) Btu it is our brain cells that we use to reason that we have
brain cells....IF our reasoning is correct. If, OTOH, our reasoning is as
flawed as say, the math of one of those defective Pentium chips, we have
nothing to test it against. Our trusting our own inferences, if it
reflects anything real, belongs to something outside nature.
RC> Do let me know if you ever get back to your original claim that
RC> atheism somehow supposedly "contradicts itself."
See above.
AS> If you accept the supernatural...things outside nature...and yet
AS> are atheist, no, it would not be a contradiction.
RC> Do let me know if you ever get back to your original stupid claim, Al.
See above. Of course, that is not the ONLY one.
... We must believe in free will - we have no choice.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 13 Jan 97 19:27:04
EID:b25a 222d9b60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf591
JH> Five of a Kind I'm not at all sure, but we'll see one before
JH> too much more time passes.
EM> Did you see where Rod "witty signoff quotes" Swift got some
EM> responses from the Mooth-O-Matic? I'd call that five of a
EM> kind.
EM> Or Yahtzee, perhaps.
Yep. You could have knocked me over with a feather when Mooth responded.
With his email address, yet! After all the spamming he's done us...hmmmm.
No, such thoughts are unChristian.
Sic 'em, guys.
(Pay attention, Leipzig and Goldberg...this IS the start of a
Schroederian conspiracy.)
... Excuse me, I have to recharge my flamethrower.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: "sucking up"
|Date: 13 Jan 97 07:49:27
EID:9c72 222d3e20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03ed
GtP>> Oh, of course. What do you think, the black lace corset or the
GtP>> purple and sequin harem outfit??
AS> The purple and sequin harem outfit would be more Frazettaish, I think.
GtP> Okay, purple and sequin it is. Now, who is gonna draw it??
Got me. I'm a reasonable good artist with pencil or pen, but I'm no
Frazetta or Boris or Bama.
... "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you." - Inigo Montoya
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: "sucking up"
|Date: 13 Jan 97 07:52:46
EID:9c72 222d3e80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03ee
GtP>> Weellll, I do have a soft spot in my heart for Sean
GtP>> Connery. . .but, no, I'll take the honorable one who wouldn't know
a
GtP>> pass if it hit him in the head and gave him a concussion.
AS> Sounds a lot like Dave Rice's behavior at Dragonfest, the way you
AS> described it....
GtP> I think David recognizes a pass, I just think he ignores it. I could
GtP> be wrong.
You would know better than I, having met Dave and been at Dragonfest. I
have done neither.
... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: adaption
|Date: 13 Jan 97 08:08:51
EID:0101 222d4100
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03ef
AS> Well, let's see now. The Earth has been in existence for roughly five
AS> billion years, life only (more or less) a billion.
ML> WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
ML> Al, did I tell you that you're wrong?
ML> The age of the Earth is 4.68 BY (5 BY is close enough), BUT
ML> life on Earth has been around for over 3.5 BY (1 BY is NOT
ML> close enough). Bioinformational macromolecules (prokaryotes)
ML> are amply evidenced in the Archean; indeed, they are
ML> sufficiently advanced that although so far unfound, precursor
ML> preprokaryotes probably arose some 3.8-4BYA.
ML> So there.
Look, it could be worse. I could be like some other religious minded
people and think life is only 6 thousand years old. (and the Earth. And
the Universe. And...)
... "Knowledge is ruin to my young men." -- Adolph Hitler (1889-1945) Germ
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: al debunks apple sauc
|Date: 13 Jan 97 19:58:36
EID:c90c 222d9f40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f0
AS> would.) Philosophy (of which science was an outgrowth) BEGAN with
AS> Socrates.
CJ> Take that, Heraclitus, Anaximander, Pythagoras, Thales,
CJ> Protagoras, Anaxagoras, Parmenides, Empedocles, and Anaximenes!
CJ> If it weren't for Al, we would have been fooled into thinking you
CJ> were philosophers!
Life is full of suprises. Of course, there were great thinkers before
Socrates. But let's just look at the As, to begin with...Anaxagoras only
has a few writings that survived, thus had not a great deal of lasting
influence through the ages. Anaxagoras postulated a world composed
entirely of an indefinite number of unchanging everlasting substances.
Change is possible because each everlasting substance contains smaller
portions of all other substances. Complex organisms, he believed, are not
everlasting, through the mingling of everlasting substances throught he
activity of Mind, a force he described as unlimited as independent. Though
important to Greek thought, would it not be fair to say he was more a
theorist than strict philosopher? And that since few of his writings
survived, not much of his influence survived, either.
Anaximander is the earliest Greek thinker about whom much is known. A
pupil of Thales, he wrote a comprehensive history of the universe. His
bold use of nonmythological explanatory hypotheses radically distinguishes
his work from earlier literary cosmologies, like Hesiod's. He believed the
universe was symmetrical, the Earth remaining stable in the center because
if has no reason to move one way rather than another. He is sometimes
called the father of astronomy. Surely his inquiries are more scientific
than philosophical?
Anaximenes' primary concern is the origin and structure of the universe,
and that everything is different varieties of air, even the gods. By
rarification, air became fire...hence the suns and the stars. Again, more
scientific than strictly philosophical, wouldn't you say? And of course,
Anaximenes' writings, except for a few fragments, are lost.
Granted science is a branch of philosophy that grew and in some ways
passed its parents, and granted that there were great thinkers before
Socrates, and even granting that back then philosophers WERE scientists,
and vice versa. Still, I think the beginnings of true philosophical
thought, in the modern sense, began with Socrates. But feel free to
disagree.
... Captain Hook died yesterday of jock itch.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: Re: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 13 Jan 97 08:18:03
EID:f3e1 222d4240
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f1
DR> Hello Al,
Hey, Dave.
DR> I am new to the Holy Smoke echo. I used to frequent the
DR> Religious Sub on VirtualNet before I took a long hiatus from
DR> posting altogether for diverse reasons. I then decided to start
DR> posting again recently on the subject matter which I was recently
DR> smitten by while doing a little reading/research. That subject
DR> is evolution. As I got into these discussions in the Skeptical
DR> Inquiry echo, I realized that I was not satisfied with just one
DR> subject at all. What's more I was starving my philosophical
DR> side.
Well, there's some philosophy here, admidst the flaming.
DR> So, I decided to try Holy Smoke. The colloquial ambience is
DR> the same as many areas of this type that I have been in for the
DR> most part. However, I see a few that have distinguished
DR> themselves as being both active and productive in properly
DR> discussing/defending Christianity. It's most refreshing! :) You
DR> write very well and obviously have a very sharp, active mind. I
DR> wish that I had known you a while back when I was by myself
DR> dealing with Pagans and the like on VirtualNet. :)
I keep my battles pretty focused in this area. After all, this is a
TREMENDOUSLY large echo. I post in other echoes occasionally...Moorcock,
occasionally Science, or some of the alt comics groups, but much more in
here.
DR> So many of our kindred just don't get into the spirit of
DR> things in areas like this for some reason. I don't know if it's
DR> because they feel that all their efforts are "pearls before
DR> swine" or if they just don't see the value of planting the seeds
DR> that we plant in spite of that the unbelievers think. What do you
DR> think? I hope this new year is a blessed one for you thus far
DR> brother and wish you all the best.
I think a lot of them are put off by the casual blasphemy and flaming
here, and figure it's better not to bother. A lot of intelligent people
like talking about things without getting them dragged through a lot of
flaming.
Me, I'm a masochist. A lot of my arguments are part George Ellis,
part G.K. Chesterton, part C.S. Lewis, and part Dorothy L. Sayers.
Same to you concerning the new year and wishing you all the best.
... "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 13 Jan 97 08:37:34
EID:07fc 222d44a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f2
AS> Communication; the Bible; think about it.
GT> Oxymoron.
Maybe not.
... Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 13 Jan 97 08:46:36
EID:8d4f 222d45c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f3
AS> In the words of distinguished theologian Karl Barth...
AS> (page 1) Jesus
AS> (page 2) loves
AS> (page 3) me
AS> (page 4) this
AS> (page 5) I
AS> (page 6) know,
AS> (page 7) because
AS> (page 8) The Bible
AS> (page 9) tells
AS> (page 10) me so.
AS> Communication; the Bible; think about it.
DC> Nice example of circular reasoning, Al. Imagine what Barth could
DC> do with a Play-n-Pull version for kids.
Actually, when asked to sum up his thinking in a few words, Barth did do
the "Jesus loves me" bit. But Ron said something about replying in ten
pages....
Obviously, I don't think the Bible is true because the Bible says so.
But it is claimed to be a mode of communication between God and Man. So
it
might be wise to examine in light of that claim, with an eye to either
debunking (the pi equals three thing, the bats as birds thing) or to
confirm it (seeing how many details are only mentioned in Acts and
Josephus, like Theudas and the Egyptian, for instance...).
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Bacteria & Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97 09:04:58
EID:955e 222d4880
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f4
AS> Not so; as you keep ignoring, bacteria do mutate to
AS> resist antibiotics. That has happened to some bacteria
AS> within our lifetime.
LA> Yes indeed, but what has that got to do with Darwin's
LA> Amoeba to Man evolution? Bacteria remaining bacteria is
LA> surely an absurd argument for evolution in terms of
LA> "descent with modification of all life from one common
LA> anscestor".
Everything. The mutation in minor matters will sooner or later result in
major changes.
AS> Laurie, do you not see how insulting your view is to
AS> God? The fossil record shows that species appear for a
AS> time(reproducing after their own kind for a while) and
AS> become extinct, to be replaced by other species.
LA> The fossil record shows NO such thing of course. That is
LA> no more than a misunderstanding of it, that is dear to the
LA> heart of ATHEISTS, since they have nowhere else to go!
It doesn't? Then obviously there are still pterodactyls around, sabertooth
tigers, and woolly mammoths. Maybe in your neck of the woods, Laurie, not
mine.
AS> Does God continuously create new life forms, and has
AS> just stopped when mankind was created? Do you not see how
AS> INEFFICIENT that makes God...like a clockmaker who must
AS> continually fiddle with the hands of the clock every five
AS> minutes or so, to keep it from running too fast or too
AS> smooth? We would consider such a clockmaker a bad one.
LA> You seem to be saying that God created ALL life in the
LA> beginning and made a good job of it and has not needed to
LA> interfere since? Do I correctly understand you? That sounds
LA> very very much like Genesis read just as it is written? How
LA> utterly strange for an evolutionist?
God didn't have to do anything special to "create" life. Life is created
by virtue of the Laws He set up.
AS> I would consider such a Creator a bad one. Instead, we
AS> have a Creator who made a world which, for the most part,
AS> runs flawlessly and smoothly, as we judge a good clock to be
AS> the one that needs the least maintenance and runs flawlessly
AS> without problem.
LA> Huh? You *ARE* a real fundamentalist them aren't you? So
If you mean a believer, yes. As I have said numerous times before.
LA> please explain why you need all those absurd millions and
LA> millions of years?
What is Time to God? Why not?
... If he was a car, all of his idiot lights would be now be flashing.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Bacteria & Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97 09:40:32
EID:955e 222d4d00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f5
AS> After the dinosaurs disappeared, we have EVIDENCE, via
AS> fossils, of an explosion of mammals, to fill the different
AS> niches left vacated by the dinosaurs...exactly as predicted
AS> by evolutionary theory. It is a prediction which has been
AS> borne out by the evidence.
LA> Are you now saying that God did NOT make the Dinosaurs
LA> like a good "clock maker" would do and that is why they did
LA> NOT survive?
No; I'm saying that the dinosaurs fulfilled their function for a time, and
were replaced by something else after a while. A good musician need not
play the same tune all the time.
LA> Aren't you also indulging in CIRCULAR REASONING here? On
LA> what was evolution based if it was NOT on the evidence that
LA> we had? How then can you turn around and claim that
LA> evolutionary theory PREDICTED the evidence that we already
LA> had?
It's both, Laurie. Some evidence led to evolutionary theory (which I am
SO
glad you noticed) which in turn led to further predictions.
LA> However, surely you are aware that Darwin admitted that
LA> the fossil record did NOT support evolution at the time of
LA> writing his book but that he hoped that in time we would
LA> find the evidence that was required?
And did. For evolution. Just not of nonpunctuated evolution. Greater
knowledge has led to modification of theories, as it always does.
LA> Don't you also know that evolutionists have also admitted
LA> that we have NOT found the evidence that was so desperately
LA> needed to prove evolution. i.e.
LA> "Evidence from the fossil record now points overwhelmingly
LA> away from the classical Darwinism which most Americans
LA> learned in High School; that new species evolve out of
LA> existing ones by the gradual accumulation of small changes,
LA> each of which helps the organism survive and compete in the
LA> environment."
LA> (Newsweek, 3/11/80, p. 54)
And then goes on to mention "punctuated evolution", if you had bothered
to
read the rest.
... I haven't killed anyone in... what time is it, anyway?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97 20:15:50
EID:c3aa 222da1e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f6
AS> They are the initial conditions of the UNIVERSE, Robert.
RC> Not if you suppose a god exists, because then it would be a part
RC> of the universe.
Depends in which sense you use the word, Robert. If you're talking about
universe in the sense of "all there is" then a God is included, if there
is a God. If you are using it in the sloppier sense, as one might speak
of
alternate universes with different constants, or in the "many worlds"
sense...as a substitute, for instance, for "space-time continuum"...then
it is possible to envision a Creator outside of the space and time we
know.
RC> Thus, the question of causes for initial conditions is merely
RC> pushed back away from the observable universe to some vague
RC> phantom of imagination which has no explanation for its initial
RC> conditions.
AS> Indeed.
RC> So you agree that you aren't explaining "the initial conditions"
RC> after all. Interesting.
It's interesting how you deleted the statement after that...in which I
mentioned instead you have an unintelligent universe, with no explanation
for its initial conditions. Either way you get something with no
explanation of its initial conditions, Robert. It's what's known as a
"First Cause". The difference is I believe the First Cause is intelligent
and selected the conditions for the universe. You would perhaps maintain
the universes' initial conditions simply ARE, and that even the oddly
selected constants...falling only in the range that would allow
intelligent life...have no previous intellect to select such constants in
such specific ranges.
... When subtlety fails us, we must resort to cream pies.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97 10:10:50
EID:08ca 222d5140
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f7
> I also wonder how we would counter a claim from the parapsychology
> crowd...how some would claim it's man's innate "psychic" powers acting
> rather than a deity. Suggestions? Not just from you, Marilyn, anyone got
DR> This claim is not so difficult to counter. Let's say for
DR> discussion's sake that man's innate psychic powers do on occasion heal
DR> him. Does this disprove God? No. If the God that created man did
so
DR> with this ability as a component placed therein, just like the ability
DR> to learn how to fix a sick/damaged body, the healing is still of God
in
DR> that the abi