God Damned Fundies!

---

11 Years of HolySmoke


|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Bill Wolff
|Sub:  Carl Sagan
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:10:28
EID:fcac 222d7940
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5064
-> On 11 Jan 97  05:34:13, Bill Wolff got back to Martin Goldberg 

BW> Carl Sagan didn't claim that evolution had positively had taken 
BW> place!

MG> You wnat to be treated like you're not a fundy? OK, explain why 

BW> No you don't seem to understand. As I know that evolution is a fact,


You don't understand, Billy-boy.  Nada, nothing.  

BW> have changed by changing conditions by natural means. Although Carl

BW> Sagan also admits that species may have been changed by "... 

This is the third time in as many messages from you that you 
have lied about the Sagan quote.  You wouldn't even make a 
piss-poor primordial soup if a large dose of intelligence 
was added to it.  

... Every fundy flamed enlightens the world.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Bill Wolff
|Sub:  Ceppa has his head up his ass again. Oh. That's his normal s
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:16:02
EID:212e 222d7a00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da51b2
-> On 11 Jan 97  04:58:01, Bill Wolff got back to Dan Ceppa 

You are on a roll, Billy-boy.  This is message number four 
that you lie your silly little ass off.  

DC> Tell us again, oh dipshit, how Carl Sagan is a creationist.

BW> I've never said that Carl Sagan was creationists. What I did say is


Bullshit, you stupid little shit for brains. 

BW> that I agree with Carl Sagan completely. And when Carl Sagan admits

BW> that the fossil record could be consistent with "... a Designer of a

BW> more remote and indirect temperament..." I happen to agree with him.


You still try to twist Sagan's quote.  Don't you have any morals 
in that twisted brain of yours?  

BW> goofy fundy does. Now I know you will ignore the truth this time 
BW> around just like you have done so in the past.

It is the truth that you are ignoring.  In fact, based on your 
messages, it has never taken the time to visit you.  

... The only time I open my mouth is to change feet!!:   Bill Wolff
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Bill Wolff
|Sub:  Mysteries of the Bible - Live on the Internet
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:28:33
EID:f080 222d7b80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da54a1
-> On 11 Jan 97  06:21:33, Bill Wolff got back to Fredric Rice 

BW> Someone dumped this into my Internet email inbox.
FR> I don't believe you.

BW> Of course you don't. 

Get it straight, Billy-boy.  No one believes a single thing 
that you post as being remotely factual.  

You've cried "Wolff" far more than one too many times.  

... Argumentum ad Ringling Brothers:  You are a Clown!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Indians
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:49:06
EID:2e47 222d7e20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5972
-> On 12 Jan 97  23:53:19, David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa 

TE>>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations
DC>> Yep, around here, they are all bickering over who gets to sell off
DC>> all the clams, net the salmon rivers and build the biggest

GP> Shows they are quick learners. 

DW> Here's your flyby badge, Dan. :)

A couple more of them and I can take that vacation I always 
wanted to do in the Andromeda Galaxy!  (Of course, Leipzig 
already has the frequent flyer points to do the same and 
include half the worlds population as freebies!)  

... "It is sad, because planets like this one are hard to find."  G Glunz
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Mark Kimes
|Sub:  so...now what?
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:54:07
EID:bc39 222d7ec0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5a9f
-> On 12 Jan 97  13:52:02, Mark Kimes got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> I'm still trying to figure out why, if he didn't believe in it,
DC> he brought it up in the first place.

LW> It is a good start. Knowing that one _doesn't_ know is much better

DC> IOW, Lee, you don't have a clue to what you believe.  

MK> Lee's "theory which is not a theory" is dismembered by Occam's Razor.


Lee does a good job of disembowling on his own.  He really 
doesn't need Occam to cut out any more of it.  

MK> to him is simply there to point out how stupid this unwarranted
MK> assumption really is.  Too bad he still won't permit himself to get
it.

I asked him to perform the experiment.  I even pleaded with him.  
Perhaps we could take a collection up and pay him?  

Hell, I'd pay a buck to see it in action!  

... "God told me" is no excuse for stupidity. --  Steve Quarrella
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  ...
|Date: 13 Jan 97  16:04:40
EID:3b4d 222d8080
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5d18
-> On 11 Jan 97  05:28:06, Al Schroeder got back to Marilyn Burge 

AS> And notice that the EXACT SAME PERSON who said that prayed in the
AS> Garden of Gethsemene to have "this burden lifted from me"...He was not

And yet another example to show that prayer doesn't work.  

After all, if it doesn't work for a godling, why should it 
work for mere mortals?  

... Close your eyes, click your heels together 3 times and yell "IS NOT!"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Re: APOLOGY TO JUDITH
|Date: 13 Jan 97  16:13:55
EID:f424 222d81a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da5f43
-> On 11 Jan 97  05:53:12, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> they keep you going back to tithe every Sunday other than to 
DC> pay for your forgiveness that you also need?  

AS> I don't tithe. 

IOW, you haven't signed the document that requires you to 
do so.  

AS> I pay what I am comfortable giving, because I approve
AS> of many of the ministries we support, like helping the homeless, or

Ministries?  Why not work for the eradication of the problems?  

AS> But yes, it is a given that we will fall short. Many decry

Yet, some how, your minister will still have a roof over his 
head and a full belly.  

AS> higher trying to reach the sky. You will never reach it. But you can
AS> get closer. 

However, when you can't reach it, you stop trying.  After all, 
why make a damned fool out of your self trying to reach something 
that is unobtainable?  

... 10th Rule of Creationism: Ignored evidence will go way...
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  16:19:13
EID:c66f 222d8260
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da6081
-> On 11 Jan 97  06:41:47, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa 

AS> Who incarnated Himself as one of His subjects and endured a trial and
DC> What's 3 days to an eternal god, Al?  Based on a 15 billion old 
DC> universe, I think that equates to about 15 thousand_ths_ of a 
DC> second.  

AS> Probably. But does that matter? No matter whether a woman lives to be
AS> only twenty, or seventy-five, the hours or at most days of childbirth
AS> she might experience still remain excrutiatingly painful.

And, unlike your god, the mother remains in contact with her 
child for the rest of her life.  

DC> Why do you need a god to tell you that you did good or bad?  

AS> I don't need a god to tell me that I did good or bad. I KNOW that.

Then, you do better than your god when it comes to dealing 
with people.  He has a bad habit of going Postal and offing 
all that don't buy into his "godliness".  

AS> I find it more comforting to have a God who doesn't CARE if you did
AS> good or bad...if you ask for forgiveness.

And, what if the forgiveness you forget to ask for is for 
wearing clothes made of multi-fabrics and he sends you to hell?  


... "You are suggesting that God is really behind this fiasco." Kelsey
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  16:27:01
EID:c66f 222d8360
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da6255
-> On 11 Jan 97  06:43:11, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa 

AS> pagan world killed many Christians like animals?
DC> 
DC> With the xians more than making up the difference in body count 
DC> with their own pograms[<-sic] 

AS> Perhaps. Or we might observe the pagan habit of often exposing female
AS> children, as unwanted, and wonder how many millions were saved
AS> thereby, by Christians dropping that.

Did Gwenny ever leave one of her children out in the wilderness 
to die?  

Pagan is a broad term.  You have attempted to paint all with the 
one tiny brush you brought using only a single example.  

As it stands, 1/2 of the world is given secondary class recognition 
by the religion you hold.  

... "One must let faith supercede reason" -- Glen Zilly
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Domino
|Sub:  Christ-Like
|Date: 13 Jan 97  16:34:32
EID:c74f 222d8440
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da6418
-> On 11 Jan 97  18:38:16, Domino got back to Dan Ceppa 

Do> Have you ever thought that maybe it's not a Deity that's allowing
Do> anything, that we're allowing everything?
DC> Of course we are.  We shape the world around us into what 
DC> we want it to be.  

Do> Then stop asking people why their God allows anything.

Why not?  They believe in the god or gods?  As such, those 
"god(s)" shape their view of reality.  

DC> will  is overshadowed by the same book's thinly disguised
DC> threats.   

Do> Actually, it never says you *can't*. It says what will happen if you
Do> *do*. You still have free will.

"You have the free will to do whatever you want.  However, if I 
don't like what you do, say or think, you go to hell.  

Now, either change your views or I get to send you to hell."  

Does that sound like free will to you?  

... God is just as compassionate as the people who created him.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Christian Dating Service
|Date: 13 Jan 97  16:39:41
EID:826a 222d84e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da654d
-> On 11 Jan 97  09:57:27, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa 

dc> And that creep has had at least 2 round trips trips for the "cure".

FR> The one I reported this morning had ___FIVE___.

He should have been castrated and executed the first time around.  


dc> is an admission that the church not only has a problem, it has
dc> a major problem.

FR> Yes.  I heard yesterday that they also admit nuns to the facility. 
FR> Nuns which sexually mollest boys and girls.  Too lovely. 

When will these assholes learn that they are the cause for 
this abuse?  Instead, they will insist that they are the "cure 
for all of the problems of the world", as they attempt to 
fuck the next generation, figuratively and literally.  

... Religious belief -  As eye-opening as skydiving without a parachute.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Tiger Eyes
|Sub:  FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 13 Jan 97  16:50:34
EID:3364 222d8640
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da67da
-> On 11 Jan 97  08:28:25, Tiger Eyes got back to Dan Ceppa 

TE> While scalping some dumb white man, Tiger Eyes told Dan.....

Seems like you missed this time and you are the one running 
around without any hair.  

TE>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations

DC> sell off all the clams, net the salmon rivers and build the
DC> biggest gambling casinos.

TE> Hey, you forgot Bingo halls.  

Nope.  I wasn't going to through in all of the evil things that 
Indians do in one post.  I'm not Al Schroeder.  

TE> Well, I have to admit that you got me there. 

Of course I did.  I'm not an appologist for any group of 
people.  You, however, attempt to do just that.  

TE> it goes to building up the community,(housing, parks and etc.) and to
TE> the Native American College Fund.  

Did you ever figure out that there are more than one single Indian 
group in your "Native American Group"?  Did it ever dawn on you 
that each group has different ideas as to what an "American 
Indian" is?  

TE> I couldn't have gone to school without it. 

So, did you bother to learn something, or just go to school?  
And (you're gonna love this) did you graduate just because 
your were an American Indian?  

... Compost...because a rind is a terrible thing to waste!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  GET SPECIFIC
|Date: 13 Jan 97  17:22:17
EID:1908 222d8ac0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da6f49
-> On 11 Jan 97  13:25:13, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> the biggist joke he played was on the Jews, as he stole their 
DC> religion's background to found his.  

AS> Again, not proven. He certainly used Jewish background, and made some

Of course he did.  That was his revenge on the Pharisees.  

AS> changes to suit the changing circumstances (like circumcision). That
AS> doesn't mean that he was ignorant from the traditions he was
AS> departing from.

Moreso, in that those traditions were part and parcel to the 
the religion he was parodying.  


DC> Now, Al, maybe you will see that Saul was a proponent of the
DC> Jerusalem Church but used the background to start his own cult.  

AS> It's possible. But if so, there is little evidence of it.

Such little evidence in that the Jersalem Church died at 
the time of Massada, well into the period that Saul was 
active as a "member" of that very same cult?  The cult 
that he was the leader(?)?  

DC> church that Saul founded.  Other than stealing the name of 
DC> that church's founder, Saul has nothing to do with the running 
DC> of the Jerusalem Church.  

AS> Then surely he would have warned the Corinthians, Collossians, etc.,
AS> not to heed the machinations of the Jerusalem Church...instead, he
AS> claimed friendship with Peter and James.

Of course he did!  As with the stealing of the rest of his bible 
from the Jews, it helped him in that he wasn't the founder, 
but the "good old boy".  After all, you forget that Saul was 
taken on the carpet for his heresies.  That is how he gets 
around them.  

AS> Were there differences between Paul and the Jerusalem Church?
AS> Undoubtedly. Are they so different as to constitute two different
AS> religions? Unproven.

Fully evidenced.  Saul's only claim to Judaisim and it's antiquities 
are via Jesuah bar Joseph.  Read Saul's works.  You will see that 
he not only was not a real Jew, he never followed the teachings 
of his godling.  

... "I'm a biblical scholar, so I can send you all to hell!"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Indians
|Date: 13 Jan 97  17:25:30
EID:10e0 222d8b20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da700a
-> On 11 Jan 97  09:02:43, Gwenny The Pooh got back to Dan Ceppa 

TE>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations

DC> Yep, around here, they are all bickering over who gets to sell off all
DC> the clams, net the salmon rivers and build the biggest gambling

GTP> Shows they are quick learners. 

Sure does.  It shows that they will take the easy way out 
and claim sovereignty over anything that they can make a 
buck on and not have to work.  

As you were saying?  

... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Tiger Eyes
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 13 Jan 97  17:31:14
EID:e44d 222d8be0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da7162
-> On 11 Jan 97  07:57:08, Tiger Eyes got back to J.J. Hitt 

TE> Not all of us are like you J.J.....I mean when your parents dumped you
TE> off at the local orphanage, for being a freak of humanity, they really
TE> didn't know that you would be so hurt by it. I feel so sorry for your
TE> parents. 

Try as you might, you are missing the proper follow through.  I 
might be a factor of your ancestory.  

TE> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations,

See!  The were always out to kill and/or enslave the other 
tribes.  

"Here:  I've got an island that you can buy, cheap!"  Said 
to Peter Minuet upon his landing on Manhattan.  

... 9 out of 10 rotweillers prefer Jehovah's Witnesses.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 13 Jan 97  17:32:38
EID:304c 222d8c00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da71b6
-> On 11 Jan 97  07:57:08, Tiger Eyes got back to J.J. Hitt 

JJH>  You actually know your ancestry?

TE> Yeah I do, and unlike you...my ancestral tree branches.

Must be a branch of the Sequoia.  In fact, it has to be!  

... "The fossil record, when played backwards, proves evolution": F Rice
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 13 Jan 97  17:35:50
EID:4663 222d8c60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32da7276
-> On 11 Jan 97  16:42:49, Ed Mills got back to J.J. Hitt 

JH>  Five of a Kind       I'm not at all sure, but we'll see one before
JH>                       too much more time passes.

EM> Did you see where Rod "witty signoff quotes" Swift got some 
EM> responses from the Mooth-O-Matic? I'd call that five of a
EM> kind. 

THAT'S THE DEFINITION!!!!  	

Nice to see you found your way back into the fray!  

... Frankenstein's monster in Jerusalem = Scaring the bejeezus of Nazareth
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Quote
|Date: 12 Jan 97  17:02:00
EID:64ed 222c8840
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 32d98b23
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d4e3f8
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about Quote:

DC> I have, Lee. You are a Sewage Wennie trying to use a bunch of
DC> mumbo jumbo to allay the fear you have that your god doesn't
DC> exist.

LW> Speaking of mumbo jumbo, only Fredric surpasses you out in using lots
LW> of emotionally loaded words to attack those who don't happen to agree
LW> with your opinions.

DC> Do you need me to translate it into pre-school level for you to
DC> understand?

Beside the point, as usual. You haven't said anything I don't understand
yet--except a few times when your sentences were so ungrammatical that it
was
hard to know for sure.

I'm not talking about the _level_ of your writing. I'm talking about its
emotional tone.

DC> I stand by my statement that you are afraid that your god doesn't
DC> exist.

I hope you're having fun standing there.

Do you have any evidence for this claim? 

--Lee

... Here's whatever you were looking for:
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)


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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  so...now what?
|Date: 12 Jan 97  17:04:00
EID:0863 222c8880
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 32d98b24
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d4e594
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about so...now what?:

-> On 06 Jan 97 19:00:00, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa

LW> In a strict scientific sense, it is not a theory, since it is not
===>  ^^^^^^^^^^
LW> amenable to scientific demonstration. It is a theory in a broader sense
===>  ^^^^^^^^^^
DC> Then it's not a theory, Lee. Stop presenting it as one.

LW> Theory n., pl. -ries. 1. a. Systematically organized knowledge
LW> applicable in a relatively wide variety of circumstances; especially,
a
DC> [..]
LW> Gee, Dan. There is more than one definition of "theory." How about in
LW> your dictionary?

DC> Gee, Lee, are you tired of shooting yourself in the foot? Next
DC> time, use a shotgun. It'll save time making all of those holes
DC> as you won't have to reload your mouth as often.

If you had said "Then it is not a scientific theory, Lee," I would have
agreed
with you. But that is not what you said.

Do I take this to mean you think that despite the fact that there are other
definitions of "theory" besides scientific theory, if it is not a scientific
theory it is not a theory?

--Lee

... Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)


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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  so...now what?
|Date: 12 Jan 97  17:09:00
EID:0863 222c8920
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 32d98b25
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d4e64b
Here's what Dan Ceppa said to Lee Woofenden about so...now what?:

DC> Take a look at his last lines, Lee:

RC> the term "theory" to describe it. Hector had it pegged, I think,
RC> when he noted your "theory" was merely a metaphysical masturbation.

LW> I should have known this would be your response. Ignore the relevant
LW> part of the message and quote the irrelevant parts.

DC> That is the relevant part of the message, Lee.

I already replied to that part of the message. It was not the part that
was
relevant to the conversation I was having with you about whether I had stated
I
did not believe the theory I was presenting.

LW> I'll send the relevant part to you in a separate message. It's an
LW> experiment, really.

DC> Tell you what: I read it _after_ you perform Hector's Experiment.

This is classic! "If you don't play the game _my_ way, I'm not playing!"

At least you openly admit that you are unwilling even to look at the evidence
I
presented.

If you won't look at the evidence on such a minor point as whether I have
stated that I do not believe the theory we were discussing, how can I expect
you to look at any other evidence?

--Lee

... Evidence, scmevidence. Take the plunge!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)


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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To:   David Rice
|Sub:  Why don't we see God[sic]
|Date: 12 Jan 97  17:15:00
EID:1be8 222c89e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 32d98b26
Here's what David Rice said to Lee Woofenden about Why don't we see God[sic]:

DR> Don't "usually?!" Since when has anyone seen gods, "non-usually"
DR> or otherwise?

LW> You reject all the eye-witness accounts,

DR> One cannot "reject" what does not exist, nor "reject" evidence
DR> that has never ever ever been presented. By all means, do
DR> produce your "eye-witness" if you have one.

It would be absurd for you to claim that no one has ever given written or
verbal accounts of having seen God. They are in the sacred books of almost
every culture. In the Bible alone there are perhaps a dozen detailed accounts
of encounters with God, and many more passing references. There are thousands
of them scattered throughout current popular book and magazine literature
on
angels, near death experiences, and other religious and spiritual topics.

The question is not whether eye-witness accounts exist. The question is
whether
you or I believe that they are genuine or that they represent lies,
hallucinations, or some other form of error.

LW> so there's not much point in discussing it.

DR> Translation: your false, baseless assertion is know by you to be
DR> wrong, therefore you refuse to defend it and thus make you
DR> appear even more the fool.

Which assertion are you talking about? The one quoted above is that you
reject
all eye-witness accounts of seeing God. Are you saying this is false? That
you
do _not_ reject the eye-witness accounts of seeing God?

DR> If my translation is wrong, you need only produce some evidence
DR> for those gods you assert exist. I will happily retract my
DR> skepticism in that arena.

When did I "assert" that "gods" exist?

--Lee

... You learn something useless every day.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 617-784-2773. (1:101/525)


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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  symbolism
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:25:33
EID:786e 222d5320
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0dbd
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1d619382
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, ROBERT!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
ROBERT say to GWENNY:

GTP>> You told us to stop her from eating Twinkies (there's that
GTP>> phallic symbol you adore so much).

RC> A Twinkie is a phallic symbol? How about a Little Debbie's snack cake?

Okay, maybe it's a cigar.   I don't know about one, but two snack
cakes do suggest something.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Thank all the gods I'm an atheist.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  I'm BAAAAAAACK! 
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:26:08
EID:1003 222d5340
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0de0
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d87230
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Al!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Al say to Gwenny:

PB>> Just thought I'd let you know that I'm back after a nearly-three-year
PB>> hiatus.

GTP>> I don't remember you.  Doesn't mean anything, I'm getting old.

AS>  Well, if nothing else, he's Becke's new husband...

Oh, I know that.  I meant I didn't remember him posting in here before.
He and Becke trade off on the IRC.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Sticks/stones break bones, but whips/chains excite me.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Pass the Cup of crimson wonder (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:27:39
EID:41da 222d5360
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0e85
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d7b29b
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, David!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
David say to Gwenny:

GP>> You can.  Just accept yourself.  Give yourself a talking to, as though
GP>> you were giving advice to a friend.  If you really can't accept your
GP>> weight, change it. If you really can't change it, accept it.  It's
as
GP>> easy as that.

DW>  Can't take your own advice, eh?

GP>> Well, according to inbred boy, David Worrell, I'm full of shit and
GP>> there's no scientific support for my hypothesis.  

DW> Have you posted any such support? Until you do, you're full of shit.

I suggested you read an article from the US News Webpage.

DW> Oh, and you might take the time to *clearly* define your "hypothesis."
DW> You will be held to this definition.

Let's see, wasn't it something like "empathy could just be a hypersensitivy
to smell and body language."  Now, what is so unclear about that?  Maybe
that you seem to be unable to read what is written before you spew vitriol?

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore, (C)rash?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Avalon is rising, to fall no more (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Warring christanic factio
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:29:33
EID:d23b 222d53a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0f76
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 738d7cc5
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Martin!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Martin say to Gwenny:

GtP>> Silly person.  I didn't say sentient cabbages.  I said that I
GtP>> read about cabbages responding to outside stimuli.  This is a
GtP>> well established fact, that plants to respond.  Maybe they've


MG> I must interject that these high school type experiments lack the proper
MG> controls to be believable.  It may well be that plants respond to music
in
MG> some manner, but there are many more envronmental factors that must
be
MG> controlled for before the conclusions are drawn.

Alright.  You are the geneticist.  Have you never seen any evidence that
plants respond to external stimuli?  As I said, I've read a number of articles.
I have been doing some web searches and will be happy to share what I find.
I will continue to maintain, however, that plants respond by changing their
growth patterns and, when I can find some of the things I remember reading
in addition to the cabbage story, even perhaps even by ways measurable by
electrodes.

MG> Besdiesw, I don't want to sing "La Donna Mobile'" to them.  I wnat to
MG> eat them.

I have a nice Diefenbachia here for you.   But only if you
share it with David FIRST.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... REALITY.SYS not found: loading hidden file CONSPIRE.EXE
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:33:27
EID:fe2a 222d5420
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da0f96
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 738d7ed2
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Martin!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Martin say to Gwenny:

GtP>>>> Rumor has it that she and the Gates of Delirim are in
GtP>>>> Denver.
DC>>> OK, just what, is, who, are "the Gates of Delirim"?
GtP>> Starwyn's BBS.

MG> "Gates of Delirium"

  Martin, the idea of you correcting my spelling has brightened
my whole day. 

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... I'm not a cultist.  I just like sacrificing virgins for fun.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Traditional Christian wea
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:34:01
EID:5f7e 222d5440
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da103d
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 738e0b0e
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Martin!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Martin say to Gwenny:

GtP>> Hmmm, I'm not familiar with that.  Anything like grits?? (Wild
GtP>> runs screaming into the night) (Can you believe he was raised in
GtP>> Virginia and doesn't like grits. )

MG> He must be a communist.

Nope one of the most interesting syntheses of anarchist/bourgeoisie I have
ever seen. 

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore, (F)ornicate it!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Why do you NEED
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:36:47
EID:fe89 222d5480
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da1065
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:

SH>> Gestapo interrogators usually have reasons for the questions they ask
SH>> too.

GtP>> Answer the question, what are sponge cats?

ML>       My guess is that they're like chamois dogs and work at car
ML>       washes.

He claims to have posted what they are but hasn't reposted it.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Abort the Gay Whales with a Nuclear Handgun for Comrade Jesus
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Reverse peristalsis.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:37:34
EID:3abb 222d54a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da10a9
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:

DC>>> Then, John, what is "negative drinking"?

ML>> Drink a quart of ClanMcVladTheImpaler in 60 seconds and find
ML>> out...

GtP>>   According to a letter in the January National Geographic:
GtP>> "Scotch is the most successful spirit in the wold.  The value of
GtP>> these alcoholic exports in 1993 was more than two billion pounds (3
GtP>> billion US dollars).

ML> Of course it's a leading export (although "deport" is a term more
ML> apt). Who wants that stuff sitting around taking up valuable shelf
ML> space?

Well, at least I can take comfort in the fact that you had to think about
that one before you came up with a smart reply. 

GtP>> In France, for example, more Scotch is now consumed in a
GtP>> month than cognac in a year."

ML> They eat snails and amphibian appendages there as well. That bespeaks
ML> volumes.

You got me there.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Be flexible.  Some things just take time.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Remember -- Rome was Christian when it fell. (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Jimbo's 2-D.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:38:39
EID:950c 222d54c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da10d9
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:

ML>>> Give us time. You've been around for over 40 years and science
ML>>> still hasn't figured you out.

JS>>> Too deep, eh? :)

ML>> Deep as a saucer, sharp as a bagel.

GtP>> Well, bagel cuts are taking over as the number one injury seen in
GtP>> ERs.

ML> Y'know...somehow it's poetically justifiable that Jimbo is suffering
ML> from multiple bagel lacerations.

And they'd become infected and rotted his brain?

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... "Aren't you supposed to be dead?" -Kirk ST:II
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  "sucking up"
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:40:12
EID:91a0 222d5500
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da1193
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:

GtP>> Oh, I want that one.  I am so tired of that bumper sticker with the
GtP>> fundy fish eating the Darwin fish that says "The Truth will prevail."
GtP>> I want a sticker that has the Darwin fish cooking the Fundy fish on
a
GtP>> campfire that says, "The truth DID prevail."

ML> I got tired of that as well and ginned up a little picture (that hangs
ML> in my lab to annoy the fundy techs) of a thresher shark labeled
ML> "science" about to devour the most fundified Xtain fish.

I swear I'm gonna make a shirt for my kids to wear to school with my idea
on it.  The irony of it is that the fundy fish is a very old symbol for
female genitals.

ML> I uploaded the thing to Steve Q's board, but he's said nada about it.
ML> Ahhh...he's probably steamed about the "dinocat" .gif I sent him...

Dinocat???

ML> The scienceshark goes well with my "Darwin fish" coffee mug and my
ML> "Dr. Science 'I know more than you do'" gimme cap.

Subtleties not a long suit with you, is it?

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Hestia does it on the Hearth!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Pray Contest
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:42:49
EID:9d44 222d5540
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da11e1
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:


DW>> Well, technically speaking, Buddha isn't a god (he never claimed to
DW>> be, IIRC). Not that that stops lots of people from worshipping him
as
DW>> one anyhow.

GtP>> True.  I believe most Buddhists are quite close kin to atheists.

ML>       Well, there *was* this batch of Siberian Buddhists and a
ML>       couple of befoozled atheists...

ML>       ...but *that's* another story...

Oh, come on, tell me.  I love long. . .stories.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... New Borg Movie:  The Lonely Borg: Myth or Tragedy?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Carl Sagan
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:43:58
EID:d892 222d5560
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da12ba
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:

MB>> Hardly.  At most, all the "studies" will do is factor one more
MB>> possible risk into the equation when decisions are being made.
MB>> If people know the risk of taking crack and take it anyway,
MB>> what makes you think that people will absolutely pass on the
MB>> notion of an abortion just because there is a small statistical
MB>> probability of future health consequences involved?

GtP>> Forget crack.  How about cigarettes and bourbon. 

ML>       Gag. Cigars and bourbon...aye, that's the ticket, lassie...

Cigars aren't so bad, but pipes are much nicer and much more sexy.  
As for bourbon, well, I might have some squirrled away that someone gave
us on our wedding. . .that was four years ago and it's probably still full.

GtP>> My motto, Don't drink, don't smoke, eat right. . .die anyway.

ML>       Perfect health is merely the slowest form of dying.

Good health or no, no one in family seems to last past 75.  What do you
think, should I try to die on the day before my 75th by crashing during
a drag race that follows a week long orgy and mead swilling??

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Me....a skeptic?  I presume you have proof..
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Pass the Cup of crimson wonder (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Cheese Whiz
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:47:37
EID:4791 222d55e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da145d
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Gwenny:

NC>>> Yeppers!!! All living things do respond to outside stimuli don't
NC>>> they... Emphasis on living... ;-}

GtP>>> Now, are you going to stop eating, just because of this?

NC>>> nope not likely... We still have to eat to live don't we...

KB>> Yes, but we don't need to eat flesh.  You can live a perfectly
KB>> happy life as a vegetarian.

GtP>> Maybe YOU can, I can't.  Seriously, I can't get all the chemicals
I
GtP>> need from legumes (besides the fact they make me ill).  So it's meat
GtP>> or be miserable for me.

ML> My diagnosis of bilateral evagenous diverticulitis has, sadly, removed
ML> me from the bovine, porcine and ovine predator list. I must now make
ML> content with the killing of the occasional domesticated barnyard fowl;
ML> eviscerating and excoriating it and eating it's flesh after being
ML> charred on an open mesquite fire.

I figure that, statistically, just about everyone will suffer from some
digestive disorder in their life.  I have a very mild hiatal hernia which
causes me mild discomfort if I only eat toast and coffee for breakfast or,
horrors, chili.  (I think it's the beans)  Having satisfied statistical
probability, I can go on doing whatever I want.   So, how serious is
this diverticulitis??  Are they curable without surgical intervention? 
I looked it up in my cheapass medical guide and it wasn't very enlightening.

ML>       I'd kill for a 64 oz. porterhouse, blood rare. Unfortunately,
ML>       it'd probably return the favor.

I'm still confused as to why meat would be a problem.  Wouldn't any food
catch in the little pouches??

ML>       Oh, and I take gobs of vitamins, minerals and amino acids.
ML>       I wish they made them in beef flavor though...

Yeah, because you can't get them from the natural source, cow/deer/bison/pig
flesh.  I hope you feel better.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... To reformat a CD-ROM use steel wool and heavy pressure.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:54:23
EID:ae15 222d56c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da14ab
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 058ebc78
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Fredric!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Fredric say to Gwenny:

JS>> Whatever it means, it was spoken by some 'doctor' and not me. (post
so
jS>> old I don't remember who), but of course I don't agree with the
JS>> sentiment, silly.

FR> The stupid fuck wants to demand that because he posts under an alias
(even
FR> though when he was posting as "Doctor" Staal it was a pathetic alias)
he
FR> doesn't have to answer for his words.

It was supposed to be an alias?  How stupid does he think we are?

gtp>> You liar.  You know very well, because I posted it
gtp>> twice, that "the doctor" in question was YOU posting
gtp>> as Dr. James N. Staal.  Still a liar for JAYSUS, I see.

FR> He's a fucking Promisekeeper -- there's no salvation for him.

True.  I've met some.  I'd call him Neandertal, but I think they were more
evolved.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Cross those feet!  We only have three nails.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Damien Wellman
|Sub:  WiCCA
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:55:37
EID:e404 222d56e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da1873
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Damien!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Damien say to Gwenny:

GTP>> I noticed.  Why don't sysops put new users on HOLD for a week or so
GTP>> and check to see if they have the brain to be allowed to post at all.
GTP>> Hey, I may ask Wild if he can design something like that.

DW>  One sysop I know had a policy of not allowing any users to use Fidonet
DW>  echoes until they filled out an application and had shown themselves
to
DW>  be halfway intellegent on the local bases. More sysops should do that.

Sounds like a good idea.  Maybe a little spelling test, some history, and
grammar. 
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Sticks/stones break bones, but whips/chains excite me.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Avalon is rising, to fall no more (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Steve Quarrella
|Sub:  December 25
|Date: 13 Jan 97  11:14:11
EID:b866 222d59c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32da19f2
REPLY: 1:124/9005 32d7f500
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Steve!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Steve say to Gwenny:

SQ>>>>> Perhaps we can get Sean McCullough to come up with
SQ>>>>> "For the most part, atheists do not do good things" in Classical
SQ>>>>> Latin. Sean, how about it?
GtP>> I'll call him this morning.

SQ> Thanks...I'll be curious to see Jones's finest rendered into a Classical
SQ> language like Latin. 

I'm talking to him at this moment, I will relay his translation asap.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... A moment's insight is sometimes worth a life's experience.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Why do you NEED
|Date: 12 Jan 97  10:18:49
EID:a0cc 222c5240
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32db2f15
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d50260
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to Dan Ceppa, who wrote to Steve Hayes on 09 Jan
97  09:36:16:

SS> The question is: What is a sponge cat?

SH> No, "DC" (who I think is Dan Ceppa) appeared to be referring to a
SH> question about fucking.  

SH> I don't remember being asked such a question.

DC> Of course you don't remeber, you stupid fundy.  You are trained 
DC> not to remember anything other than what your masters spoon 
DC> feed you every Sunday.  

DC> Let me refresh you aberrant memory:  

DC> You were asked about what "sponge cats" were.  You then claimed 
DC> that you were being asked for the answer by "a Gestapo method".  

DC> In the interim, you have avoided both answering what the fuck are 
DC> "sponge cats" and describing what the "gestapo tactics" used on 
DC> your little mind were.  

DC> Try answering both this time.  

I've answered both of those, and neither of them was about fucking.

So how about you answering the question for a change.

Keep well,

Steve Hayes
E-mail: steveh@khanya.bbs.co.za
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734

... I love Dan - he makes ME seem normal!
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Steve Hayes
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Puget macarena
|Date: 12 Jan 97  10:19:40
EID:55b2 222c5260
MSGID: 5:7107/9.0 32db2f16
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1caf9907
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
Steve Hayes is replying to ROBERT CURRY, who wrote to STEVE HAYES on 07
Jan 97  11:44:18:

RC> ROFL! Would the question (which you neglected to identify) be your
RC> ridiculous demand to have people tell you something about those
RC> "sponge cats" you babble about while studiously refusing to define
RC> what the phrase means, if anything?

RC> If South Africa provides assistance for its mentally ill citizens,
RC> perhaps you could seek help from your government. Otherwise, you
RC> are only going to continue providing entertainment here in HolySmoke.

It seems that the chief form of entertainment here on Holy Smoke is demanding
answers to questions that have either already been answered, or that haven't
been asked.

By neglecting to identify the  question, I was merely joining in the spirit
of things in this echo - when in Rome...

... The rest of ROBERT CURRY's mindless ad hominems deleted
--- GEcho/386 1.11+
* Origin: Fast! BBS, Sandton, RSA * USR V34 * [706-1749] (5:7107/9)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Pray Contest
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:25:24
EID:1716 222da320
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2dae3bc1
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d9c4d8
Hello David!

David Worrell wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:

DW>> Nope. Agnostics need to grow some balls and climb down off
DW>> that fence. :)

MM> Hey... fence or no fence, how would you classify somebody who
MM> just don't care - one way or another?

DW> Apathetic?

So that is probably what I am - or Apatheistic, as Marilyn
Burge expressed it :-)

MM> Atheist means to me a person who has found the subject of
MM> religion important enough to become disenchanted and take
MM> an 'anti-stand' (in spite of any philological hair-splitting).

DW> Atheism is the default state, Mimi. We aren't born believing
DW> in gods. 

Not as I see it. I am not an ANTI, simply a DONT-CARE-A-BIT.
The urge was never there. I see THAT as the default.
Interesting stuff, religion, but incomprehensible and basically
on exactly the same level as all kinds of fairy tales to me.
Funny and exiting to argue about, but not important enough to
incorporate in day-to-day decision making.

... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  Mars
|Date: 13 Jan 97  17:16:53
EID:2eaa 222d8a00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf585
AS>> You're right...goddesses aren't common at all...

GtP>> Harumph!  I sense some subtle sarcasm here. 

AS>  Not at all. Or maybe just a shade. There are quite a few women I consider
AS>  at least near-goddesses. 

GtP> Good save, Al.

Hey, I haven't been married for sixteen years without learning SOME
survival skills.

AS>    Don't confuse me with one of the OTHER posters from Tennessee.

GtP> Never.

Thanks.




... Hot Fudge Sundae falls on a Tuesday this year.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Becke Boyer
|Sub:  RE: MASTURBATION
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:41:01
EID:3229 222d9d20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf586
GtP>> I have no problem with masturbation.  I never had.  I could never
GtP>> understand what the problem is.

AS>  Well, for males, one must be careful not to leave stains on things...

BB> That's what towels are made for, Al..;)

Well, yes...but some might answer that some parts of an agreeable member
of the opposite sex are made for, also...



... A nudist is one who suffers from clothestrophobia.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  MIRACLE [1/2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  17:39:31
EID:d43d 222d8ce0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf587
AS>I think my reply to Marty was swallowed when I had those problems with
the 
> BBS I used to post from. By "word" I meant unit of language...it doesn't
> matter whether the medium is verbal, electrical, smell, whatever. The
> ability to coin new terms to fit the situation is VERY interesting, and
> very unlike the bulk of animalkind. I acknowledge your chimp example,
but
> note they are using human-derived sign language, not our own.

DR> Al,

DR> Darwin was correct about one thing for certain.  There is a close
DR> relation between language capabilities and intellect.  However, I
DR> don't know if I would be too quick to give too much credit to the
DR> talking apes just yet.  And I am not saying that anyone here is doing
DR> that.  I just feel that doing so give rise to the notion that there
DR> must be human-like language abilities within these "alleged" early
DR> progenitors of man.  It is true that speech is only "one" of the
DR> garments that language wears to meet press.  However, to conclude that
DR> an ape's newly formed "gimme-a-banana-gesticulation" is to be compared
DR> to our own level of thought communication is perfunctory cognition at
DR> best.  
DR> Only when language becomes free of the immediate control of
DR> external stimuli does it become an instrument of reasoning in the true
DR> sense of the word.  Can apes acquire human language capabilities? 
DR> Well, has one ever asked for a banana when one was not present or had
DR> not just been brought up by someone else?  Where is the proof of their
DR> capability of abstract thought? 

I'm perhaps not the one to ask, but I believe that the chimps HAVE asked
for food, at least, when it's not present. But, not sure of that. I know
someone who would know, though. Sue?



... I'm an absolute, off-the-wall fanatical moderate.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  more babbling email
|Date: 13 Jan 97  17:44:46
EID:d84f 222d8d80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf588
RC> Are you proud of the fact that you have disgusted and
RC> thoroughly alienated him?

AS> That is your assertion, not his

RC> My assertion has the benefit of being accurate, a characteristic
RC> alien to many of yours.

Unfortunately for you, no it isn't.

AS> (at least addressed to me).

RC> What would be the point in addressing someone who doesn't listen?

Perhaps you should ask him that, since he addresses me a question IN THIS
VERY PACKET.

AS> If he was either, than that is his problem, not mine.

RC> It *was* his problem; he solved it.

He did indeed. He took some time out. He is back asking questions. Do you
have a problem with that?


AS> Are all of you proud for driving Jesse off?

RC> Who is "all of you?"

Many of the nontheists of the echo.

AS> Is there any blame attached to that? Hardly.

RC> I noticed several people express thankfulness and pleasure.

Yes.

AS> Jesse's a big boy, and his decisions are his own. Similarly,
AS> Curtis is a big boy, and HIS decisions are his own.

RC> So you aren't proud to have disgusted and alienated him. Gee, and
RC> here I thought you were getting commisions for driving people as far
RC> away from your religion as possible.

Are you seriously suggesting that Curtis is a ripe candidate for
conversion?

RC> Congratulations on the success of your approach.

Congratulations on your falling flat on your face. Too bad for you that
Curtis asked me a question in this very packet. ROFL!!!




... Wizard's Guild parking only. Violators will be toad!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  more babbling email
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:35:25
EID:d84f 222d9c60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf589
AS> Dave Worrell similarly posting private email from Marilyn
AS> Burge as a rather involved tagline. Doubtless, to be
AS> consistent, you will defend that also.

RC> Doubtless you enjoy stirring as much shit as possible when it
RC> comes to Marilyn and anyone with whom she happens to have a dispute.

Tsk. A simple, "I do not back Worrell in that" would be more to the point.
Or "I do defend Worrell's right to do whatever he wants with private email
sent to him." Either would be fine.
Which for you?

AS> I keep it private, until the sender elects to tell me I can
AS> post it publicly. If you have different standards, again, no
AS> surprise.

RC> You know that my standards are to return any email that originated
RC> from a public thread in a public echo BACK into that public echo.

I do NOW.

RC> Why you should object to this has been a mystery.

I like to treat email as private.


AS> I do not reveal such if sent privately, unless the sender
AS> gives me permission.

RC> Then how do you account for your gaffe with Judith? Did she give
RC> you her permission?

(A) she did not say it in email, but among several in #irc, and (B) I
acknowledged the mistake, and apologized to Judith. If the two were
comparable, I would expect an apology from you, just as I apologized to
Judith. I do NOT expect that, of course. I know you too well.

RC> There's the difference between you and me:

RC> Your policy is absolute, and you absolutely fuck it up. My policy
RC> is to use my judgement in each situation as it arises. Thus far

Certainly. Regardless what the feelings of the other is, you will use as
YOUR judgement sees fit. As Worrell did with Marilyn's.

RC> the only complaint that I've ever had is from YOU bitching without
RC> any cause (unless you think that my policy differing from yours
RC> is somehow cause to bitch -- I wouldn't put that past you).

Not at all; I am simply remarking on our different standards.

AS> Even if it were all much the same information as posted
AS> publicly, it would be kept private, unless I asked the sender.

RC> Then how do you account for revealing the information that Judith
RC> specifically asked you NOT to reveal? I think I'll stick with
RC> a policy that is less absolute but better suited to encouraging
RC> reasonable consideration for each case as it comes up.

As long as YOU decide it is reasonable, Robert. And I apologized to
Judith. The two are not comparable, because of course there is no (nor do
I expect) apology from you.

AS> It was sent privately, not publicly. As I said above. Then
AS> it is, ipso facto, private.

RC> 100% wrong. NOTHING you send on the internet is private unless you
RC> encrypt it first.

Even that is not private...if there is no trust given the one you send the
message to.

AS> In other words, YOU choose to continue it. Very well.

RC> Well, apparantly we BOTH choose to continue it. Certainly I have
RC> no objections to your making a fool of yourself.

Even to the point of showing the way...by example?

AS> It is you who keep on reminding others how it is obviously
AS> folly to send you email, because YOU will be the judge
AS> of what is confidential, not they.

RC> And those who trust my judgement on the matter do so with complete
RC> confidence.

No; I trusted you with that much. I will not do so again.  Or do you want
to qualify the "those" to mean, "everybody BUT Al"? A principle that is
held save when it is CONVENIENT for you to disregard it isn't much of one.

RC> It would be folly to send email to someone whose judgement one
RC> does NOT trust, if one sends something of a private, personal and
RC> confidential nature.

RC> Those who send long, boring rehashes of their public posts, as
RC> you did, Al, have no cause to complain if their rehashes are returned
RC> to the echo whence they originated to begin with.

Keep justifying it to yourself, Robert. Maybe you will eventually believe
it.

AS>  Robert, if you sent me an email saying Clinton won the
AS> election...obviously no surprise...I would not reproduce
AS> it without asking you first.

RC> If you mean to demonstrate a thoughtless and unbending obedience to
RC> some absolute rule, this is charming. But so what?

Just observing the differences in standards.




... !edis gnorw eht morf siht ta gnikool era uoY  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  More grist from the web                                  [2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  18:08:49
EID:b585 222d9100
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58a
AS>  Wellllll....we don't have claims by living witnesses (or even purported
AS>  living witnesses) of Odin hanging self-implaed by his own spear by
AS>  Yggsdrasil, within historical times. As opposed to even the claims
of

GT> Yggdrasil.    You were close.{g}    IMO that story is generally
GT> considered to be allegorical - the price paid for knowledge - rather
GT> than literal history, as the JC yarn is. 

I agree on both points; that one is allegorical for paying the price for
knowledge (the giving up the eye for knowledge at Mirmir's well is another
example)...and that the JC yarn is, at least in part, literal history.

AS>  witness by James, John, Peter, etc. within historical times. Most
AS>  mythologies are set in a historical neverland. Instead, we have a Man,
AS>  living in a decade that can roughly be dated, yet doing things that
are
AS>  usually only assigned to people of a mythical Golden AGe.

GT> IOW somebody tried to take a collection of myths and 'baptise' them
by
GT> putting in real, or at least real-sounding, names.   Okay, I'll accept
GT> that. 

Hmmmm. Or something actually happened that was the culmination and
fulfillment for what all the myths were metaphors for.

AS>    Certainly Jesus conforms to the model of the Hero of a Thousand Faces.
AS>  But a better question might be why the myth of a dying and resurrected
god
AS>  is so common throughout mankind. It's almost as if we all had a universal
AS>  yearning for such a being.
AS>    Almost as if we were built with such a yearning.

GT> And the Jeshua story was one more attempt to capitalize on that
GT> yearning.  Okay - makes sense.   Actually, the dying and resurrected
GT> god myth has it's very obvious root in the natural annual cycle; the
GT> new green plants born in the spring, ripening to maturity in the
GT> summer, and dying in the fall, leaving behind them seeds to lie
GT> dormant under the Earth during the cold winter, until they are reborn
GT> again the next spring. 

Hmmm. But that works better for the pheonix, surely? No one pretends the
old planet is the same as the new plant.

AS>  No; but it doesn't disprove it either. And it rather puts a different
spin
AS>  to turning to a religion SIMPLY because of the Heaven eventually offered.

GT> That's hardly unique, either, Al.   Almost all religions have their
GT> own version of heaven; the Blessed Realm, the Summerlands, Valhalla,
GT> and so on. 

Certainly. Although oftentimes it is a late developement. The early Jews
believed mainly in a misty Sheol; Heaven came later...just as the early
Greeks believed mainly in a Hades where the ghost of glorious Achilles
moaned it was better to be a living slave than King of the Dead (The
Oddyssey) and later developed the Blessed Isles, where the heroes and
truly good go...




... Ok, I pulled the pin.  Now what?  Where are you going?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:37:32
EID:242e 222d9ca0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58b
AS> RH> Her answer was that she would not remember me. Now, since we have

AS> What???? Where does she get that?

AS> RH> been married twice as long as she was single, she's going to wander
> RH> around Heaven wondering just who the Hell she IS.

AS> Do I get the odd feeling she puts a lot of presure on you to join the
> church...?

DR> Al,

DR> This little minuet with Roger and the Missuz has and will
DR> continue to create the sort of questions that are asked of us by
DR> non-believers.  Not being all knowing creatures we are hard pressed
to
DR> answer them.  It's a little disconcerting to see that they are asked
DR> within the bonds of matrimony as in this scenario.  That's because they
DR> are unequally yoked and thus will have great problems as a result.

Well, Roger has been, as he said, married to her twice as long as she was
single, so their "unequal yoke" has survived a lot of things.

DR> Preamble aside, I will assay to provide some modicum of resolve
DR> to this quandary via perspective.  I do not believe that she will not
DR> remember her husband no more than I believe she will not remember *all*
DR> parts of her incarnate life.  The reflection upon the incarnate life
is
DR> what will eternally chasten those condemned to Hell and will,
DR> conversely, delight those who make it to Heaven.  Her delight in her
DR> incarnate life, when in Heaven, will be in the knowledge she made the
DR> correct choice. 

Ummmm. In all honesty, cold comfort when your spouse is roasting in Hell.
I have been married nearly seventeen years, and would hate to contemplate
same.


DR> Does this mean that she will not be saddened if Roger should not
DR> be there with her in God's glorious presence?  No.  Even God Himself
is
DR> grieved at man's choice to reject Him and thus be damned by his own
DR> repudiative nature.  That is not to say that her compassion based
DR> twinges, no matter how strong, will negate any chance of her enjoying
DR> Heaven though.  If they could, then Heaven isn't all that The Word says
DR> it is, right? 

Well, yeah, but that still doesn't really compensate them for the
knowledge of what might have been.  And of course, I am by no means as
sure as Roger's wife that he will end up anyplace but Heaven.




... What we have here, is a NEED to communicate!  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  More grist from the web                                  [2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:45:43
EID:a5e7 222d9da0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58c
AS> Asking forgiveness is extortion???
DC> It is when the alternative is an eternity of pain and suffering.  

AS> Or an eternity of bliss and happiness.

DC> "Here:  Eat this jelly doughnut or I'll kill you."  

"Okay, here are two doors. One leads to a smorgasboard of delicious food,
and beautiful music, and fine books, and pretty ladies. The other leads
you to a sheer dropoff and you will die, horribly, falling twenty stories.
"Your choice."

AS> Wellllll....we don't have claims by living witnesses (or even
AS> purported living witnesses) of Odin hanging self-implaed by his own
AS> spear by Yggsdrasil, within historical times. As opposed to even

DC> You don't have independently corroborated claims for your myth,
DC> either.   

Of the actual Resurrection and such? Granted. It's still light years ahead
of what most ancient religions claimed. We don't have independently
corroboated claims for a LOT of things that happened in the ancient world.
But at least we have claims of supposed eyewitnesses, which is more than
we can say for, say, the Trojan War, written by Homer, some seven hundred
years after the event...
Yet later confirmed by archeology in some respects.

AS> times. Most mythologies are set in a historical neverland. Instead,
we
AS> have a Man, living in a decade that can roughly be dated, yet doing

DC> I told you Saul wasn't a good Judaic scholar.  I didn't say he 
DC> was stupid.  

No indeed; in fact, a rather learned man in some ways, quoting from at
least two pagan works. Too stupid to spread stories in places like Corinth
that a merchant or soldier couldn't debunk upon going back to Palestine.

DC> current cult of the UFO nuts as well as religious fanatics.  Does
DC> that make their cult the "one true cult"?  

AS> No; but it doesn't disprove it either. And it rather puts a different

DC> If you can't disprove it, why not join?  

Because I think it extremely unlikely; if alien civlizations do exist
(which I do believe) they would not spend the enormous amounts of energy
to travel from star to star, only to mutilate cattle and give another
species' females rather intimate exams. Crossing light years to examine
the genitalia of cats might be a useful analogy. It makes no sense. When
the aliens come, I doubt if we'll have much doubt of it. They'll be a
little hard to ignore.




... Please, no deja vu; I don't want to go through that again.    
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  NEVER BE GODLY
|Date: 13 Jan 97  18:36:33
EID:c9c1 222d9480
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58d
DC> You seem pretty brassiere of yourself.
MH>  So? You wanna make something of tit?
DC> I noticed a halter in your typing of your reply.  Perhaps you
DC> need someone to underwire it and keep them separated.  Cross
DC> my heart!
MH> Well, that gives me a lift.
DC> Nothing like raising a cup or two.  

AS> Jog my mammary, what were we talking about? (Or better yet, jog one
AS> of Courtney Cox's mammaries...)

DC> I'll do that and perhaps get back to on how that uplifted her.  }:-)


Sorry, I'm reading my kids the story of Hansel and Gretel. We just got to
the part where they got to the Gingerbread House, and the witch says,
"Nipple, nipple, like a mouse, who's been nippling at my house..."




... Freudian Slips'R'Us
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  petty shit
|Date: 13 Jan 97  18:43:46
EID:0643 222d9560
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58e
AS>> If you regarded it as junk, why did you ever bother to try to
AS>> respond

RC> Already answered that one. Have you forgotten?

AS> Force of habit or temporary insanity, I believe.

RC> So your repetition of the question was completely needless, as you
RC> obviously can remember the answer.

Then why bother to rage at me for replying to your email...in
email...which was sent by "force of habit" or "mass insanity". I made the
mistake of thinking you were in control of your faculties.


AS> Neither of which I am to blame for, surely?

RC> Did someone blame you?

Oddly enough, someone on this echo actually castigized my answering
questions sent to me in email as "junk email". Hard to believe, I know.




... "Sheesh! Try to do something nice, and you get flamed!" -- Joan of Arc
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  Population Growth.                                       [1]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  18:45:02
EID:2e67 222d95a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf58f
MB> Laurie is rather ethically challenged, isn't he?

ML>      Is that PC-speak for "incredibly ignorant"?

MB> No, it's grown-up talk for "dishonest as hell."

That too.



... Do not disturb.  Already disturbed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  waiting, still
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:22:01
EID:0e59 222d9ac0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf590
AS> Simply making sure of where you stand, Robert.

RC> What does where I stand have to do with your claim that atheism
RC> contradicts itself?

Are you not an atheist?

AS> If you are not a strict materialist, what do you credit which
AS> is immaterial?

RC> Mappings and numbers, and games and relations,
RC> Regular polytopes, odd permutations,
RC> Cluster points, boundaries, fields and rings,
RC> Abstractions are some of my favorite things.

And do you believe they have an actual existence, in the Pythogorean
sense? Or are they merely labels we put on things?


AS> Then do YOU, as an atheist, conversely accept the supernatural?

RC> You forgot to say "Excellent!" (Your usual substitute for "Oops!")

That's because it was not excellent. You didn't clarify your stand.

RC> To answer your question, no, I don't believe there's a monster in
RC> the closet. You may (if you like) call me a naturalist, as opposed
RC> to a supernaturalist. The latter is a position of pointless idiocy.

Then, back to the original point. If you are a naturalist, you believe
that everything must be contained within nature...including the surity of
our conclusions. Which is a product of nature. (i.e., brain cells, for
instance.) Btu it is our brain cells that we use to reason that we have
brain cells....IF our reasoning is correct. If, OTOH, our reasoning is as
flawed as say, the math of one of those defective Pentium chips, we have
nothing to test it against.  Our trusting our own inferences, if it
reflects anything real, belongs to something outside nature.

RC> Do let me know if you ever get back to your original claim that
RC> atheism somehow supposedly "contradicts itself."

See above.

AS> If you accept the supernatural...things outside nature...and yet
AS> are atheist, no, it would not be a contradiction.

RC> Do let me know if you ever get back to your original stupid claim, Al.

See above. Of course, that is not the ONLY one.




... We must believe in free will - we have no choice.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:27:04
EID:b25a 222d9b60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32daf591
JH>  Five of a Kind       I'm not at all sure, but we'll see one before
JH>                       too much more time passes.

EM> Did you see where Rod "witty signoff quotes" Swift got some 
EM> responses from the Mooth-O-Matic? I'd call that five of a
EM> kind. 
EM> Or Yahtzee, perhaps.

Yep. You could have knocked me over with a feather when Mooth responded.
With his email address, yet! After all the spamming he's done us...hmmmm.
No, such thoughts are unChristian.
Sic 'em, guys. 
(Pay attention, Leipzig and Goldberg...this IS the start of a
Schroederian conspiracy.)



... Excuse me, I have to recharge my flamethrower.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
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PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  "sucking up"
|Date: 13 Jan 97  07:49:27
EID:9c72 222d3e20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03ed
GtP>> Oh, of course.  What do you think, the black lace corset or the
GtP>> purple and sequin harem outfit??

AS>  The purple and sequin harem outfit would be more Frazettaish, I think.

GtP> Okay, purple and sequin it is.  Now, who is gonna draw it??

Got me. I'm a reasonable good artist with pencil or pen, but I'm no
Frazetta or Boris or Bama.



... "You seem a decent fellow.  I hate to kill you." - Inigo Montoya
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  "sucking up"
|Date: 13 Jan 97  07:52:46
EID:9c72 222d3e80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03ee
GtP>>   Weellll, I do have a soft spot in my heart for Sean
GtP>> Connery. . .but, no, I'll take the honorable one who wouldn't know
a
GtP>> pass if it hit him in the head and gave him a concussion. 

AS>  Sounds a lot like Dave Rice's behavior at Dragonfest, the way you
AS>  described it....

GtP> I think David recognizes a pass, I just think he ignores it.  I could
GtP> be wrong. 

You would know better than I, having met Dave and been at Dragonfest. I
have done neither.




... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  adaption
|Date: 13 Jan 97  08:08:51
EID:0101 222d4100
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03ef
AS> Well, let's see now. The Earth has been in existence for roughly five
AS> billion years, life only (more or less) a billion.

ML> WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

ML> Al, did I tell you that you're wrong?

ML> The age of the Earth is 4.68 BY (5 BY is close enough), BUT
ML> life on Earth has been around for over 3.5 BY (1 BY is NOT
ML> close enough). Bioinformational macromolecules (prokaryotes)
ML> are amply evidenced in the Archean; indeed, they are
ML> sufficiently advanced that although so far unfound, precursor
ML> preprokaryotes probably arose some 3.8-4BYA.

ML> So there.

Look, it could be worse. I could be like some other religious minded
people and think life is only 6 thousand years old. (and the Earth. And
the Universe. And...)  



... "Knowledge is ruin to my young men." -- Adolph Hitler (1889-1945) Germ
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  al debunks apple sauc
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:58:36
EID:c90c 222d9f40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f0
AS>  would.) Philosophy (of which science was an outgrowth) BEGAN with
AS>  Socrates.

CJ> Take that, Heraclitus, Anaximander, Pythagoras, Thales,
CJ> Protagoras, Anaxagoras, Parmenides, Empedocles, and Anaximenes!
CJ> If it weren't for Al, we would have been fooled into thinking you
CJ> were philosophers!

Life is full of suprises. Of course, there were great thinkers before
Socrates. But let's just look at the As, to begin with...Anaxagoras only
has a few writings that survived, thus had not a great deal of lasting
influence through the ages. Anaxagoras postulated a world composed
entirely of an indefinite number of unchanging everlasting substances.
Change is possible because each everlasting substance contains smaller
portions of all other substances. Complex organisms, he believed, are not
everlasting, through the mingling of everlasting substances throught he
activity of Mind, a force he described as unlimited as independent. Though
important to Greek thought, would it not be fair to say he was more a
theorist than strict philosopher? And that since few of his writings
survived, not much of his influence survived, either.
Anaximander is the earliest Greek thinker about whom much is known. A
pupil of Thales, he wrote a comprehensive history of the universe. His
bold use of nonmythological explanatory hypotheses radically distinguishes
his work from earlier literary cosmologies, like Hesiod's. He believed the
universe was symmetrical, the Earth remaining stable in the center because
if has no reason to move one way rather than another. He is sometimes
called the father of astronomy. Surely his inquiries are more scientific
than philosophical?
Anaximenes' primary concern is the origin and structure of the universe,
and that everything is different varieties of air, even the gods. By
rarification, air became fire...hence the suns and the stars. Again, more
scientific than strictly philosophical, wouldn't you say? And of course,
Anaximenes' writings, except for a few fragments, are lost.
Granted science is a branch of philosophy that grew and in some ways
passed its parents, and granted that there were great thinkers before
Socrates, and even granting that back then philosophers WERE scientists,
and vice versa. Still, I think the beginnings of true philosophical
thought, in the modern sense, began with Socrates. But feel free to
disagree.









... Captain Hook died yesterday of jock itch.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Re: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 13 Jan 97  08:18:03
EID:f3e1 222d4240
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f1
DR> Hello Al,

Hey, Dave.

DR> I am new to the Holy Smoke echo.  I used to frequent the
DR> Religious Sub on VirtualNet before I took a long hiatus from
DR> posting altogether for diverse reasons.  I then decided to start
DR> posting again recently on the subject matter which I was recently
DR> smitten by while doing a little reading/research.  That subject
DR> is evolution.  As I got into these discussions in the Skeptical
DR> Inquiry echo, I realized that I was not satisfied with just one
DR> subject at all.  What's more I was starving my philosophical
DR> side. 

Well, there's some philosophy here, admidst the flaming.

DR> So, I decided to try Holy Smoke.  The colloquial ambience is
DR> the same as many areas of this type that I have been in for the
DR> most part.  However, I see a few that have distinguished
DR> themselves as being both active and productive in properly
DR> discussing/defending Christianity.  It's most refreshing! :)  You
DR> write very well and obviously have a very sharp, active mind.  I
DR> wish that I had known you a while back when I was by myself
DR> dealing with Pagans and the like on VirtualNet. :)

I keep my battles pretty focused in this area. After all, this is a
TREMENDOUSLY large echo. I post in other echoes occasionally...Moorcock,
occasionally Science, or some of the alt comics groups, but much more in
here.

DR> So many of our kindred just don't get into the spirit of
DR> things in areas like this for some reason.  I don't know if it's
DR> because they feel that all their efforts are "pearls before
DR> swine" or if they just don't see the value of planting the seeds
DR> that we plant in spite of that the unbelievers think.  What do you
DR> think?  I hope this new year is a blessed one for you thus far
DR> brother and wish you all the best.

I think a lot of them are put off by the casual blasphemy and flaming
here, and figure it's better not to bother. A lot of intelligent people
like talking about things without getting them dragged through a lot of
flaming.
Me, I'm a masochist.  A lot of my arguments are part George Ellis,
part G.K. Chesterton, part C.S. Lewis, and part Dorothy L. Sayers.
Same to you concerning the new year and wishing you all the best.



... "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  Apostasy
|Date: 13 Jan 97  08:37:34
EID:07fc 222d44a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f2
AS>  Communication; the Bible; think about it.

GT> Oxymoron.

Maybe not.



... Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Apostasy
|Date: 13 Jan 97  08:46:36
EID:8d4f 222d45c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f3
AS> In the words of distinguished theologian Karl Barth...
AS> (page 1) Jesus
AS> (page 2) loves
AS> (page 3) me
AS> (page 4) this
AS> (page 5) I
AS> (page 6) know,
AS> (page 7) because
AS> (page 8) The Bible
AS> (page 9) tells
AS> (page 10) me so.
AS> Communication; the Bible; think about it.

DC> Nice example of circular reasoning, Al.  Imagine what Barth could 
DC> do with a Play-n-Pull version for kids.  

Actually, when asked to sum up his thinking in a few words, Barth did do
the "Jesus loves me" bit. But Ron said something about replying in ten
pages....
Obviously, I don't think the Bible is true because the Bible says so.
But it is claimed to be a mode of communication between God and Man. So
it
might be wise to examine in light of that claim, with an eye to either
debunking (the pi equals three thing, the bats as birds thing) or to
confirm it (seeing how many details are only mentioned in Acts and
Josephus, like Theudas and the Egyptian, for instance...).




... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Bacteria & Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  09:04:58
EID:955e 222d4880
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f4
AS>   Not so; as you keep ignoring, bacteria do mutate to
AS> resist antibiotics. That has happened to some bacteria
AS> within our lifetime.

LA> Yes indeed, but what has that got to do with Darwin's
LA> Amoeba to Man evolution? Bacteria remaining bacteria is
LA> surely an absurd argument for evolution in terms of
LA> "descent with modification of all life from one common
LA> anscestor".

Everything. The mutation in minor matters will sooner or later result in
major changes.

AS>      Laurie, do you not see how insulting your view is to
AS> God? The fossil record shows that species appear for a
AS> time(reproducing after their own kind for a while) and
AS> become extinct, to be replaced by other species.

LA> The fossil record shows NO such thing of course. That is
LA> no more than a misunderstanding of it, that is dear to the
LA> heart of ATHEISTS, since they have nowhere else to go!

It doesn't? Then obviously there are still pterodactyls around, sabertooth
tigers, and woolly mammoths. Maybe in your neck of the woods, Laurie, not
mine.

AS>      Does God continuously create new life forms, and has
AS> just stopped when mankind was created? Do you not see how
AS> INEFFICIENT that makes God...like a clockmaker who must
AS> continually fiddle with the hands of the clock every five
AS> minutes or so, to keep it from running too fast or too
AS> smooth? We would consider such a clockmaker a bad one.

LA> You seem to be saying that God created ALL life in the
LA> beginning and made a good job of it and has not needed to
LA> interfere since? Do I correctly understand you?  That sounds
LA> very very much like Genesis read just as it is written? How
LA> utterly strange for an evolutionist?

God didn't have to do anything special to "create" life. Life is created
by virtue of the Laws He set up.

AS>    I would consider such a Creator a bad one. Instead, we
AS> have a Creator who made a world which, for the most part,
AS> runs flawlessly and smoothly, as we judge a good clock to be
AS> the one that needs the least maintenance and runs flawlessly
AS> without problem.

LA> Huh? You *ARE* a real fundamentalist them aren't you? So

If you mean a believer, yes. As I have said numerous times before.

LA> please explain why you need all those absurd millions and
LA> millions of years?

What is Time to God? Why not?



... If he was a car, all of his idiot lights would be now be flashing.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Laurie Appleton
|Sub:  Bacteria & Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  09:40:32
EID:955e 222d4d00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f5
AS>   After the dinosaurs disappeared, we have EVIDENCE, via
AS> fossils, of an explosion of mammals, to fill the different
AS> niches left vacated by the dinosaurs...exactly as predicted
AS> by evolutionary theory.  It is a prediction which has been
AS> borne out by the evidence.

LA> Are you now saying that God did NOT make the Dinosaurs
LA> like a good "clock maker" would do and that is why they did
LA> NOT survive?

No; I'm saying that the dinosaurs fulfilled their function for a time, and
were replaced by something else after a while. A good musician need not
play the same tune all the time.

LA> Aren't you also indulging in CIRCULAR REASONING here? On
LA> what was evolution based if it was NOT on the evidence that
LA> we had? How then can you turn around and claim that
LA> evolutionary theory PREDICTED the evidence that we already
LA> had?

It's both, Laurie. Some evidence led to evolutionary theory (which I am
SO
glad you noticed) which in turn led to further predictions.

LA> However, surely you are aware that Darwin admitted that
LA> the fossil record did NOT support evolution at the time of
LA> writing his book but that he hoped that in time we would
LA> find the evidence that was required?

And did. For evolution. Just not of nonpunctuated evolution. Greater
knowledge has led to modification of theories, as it always does.


LA> Don't you also know that evolutionists have also admitted
LA> that we have NOT found the evidence that was so desperately
LA> needed to prove evolution. i.e.

LA> "Evidence from the fossil record now points overwhelmingly
LA> away from the classical Darwinism which most Americans
LA> learned in High School; that new species evolve out of
LA> existing ones by the gradual accumulation of small changes,
LA> each of which helps the organism survive and compete in the
LA> environment."
LA> (Newsweek, 3/11/80, p. 54)

And then goes on to mention "punctuated evolution", if you had bothered
to
read the rest.



... I haven't killed anyone in... what time is it, anyway?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:15:50
EID:c3aa 222da1e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f6
AS> They are the initial conditions of the UNIVERSE, Robert.

RC> Not if you suppose a god exists, because then it would be a part
RC> of the universe.

Depends in which sense you use the word, Robert. If you're talking about
universe in the sense of "all there is" then a God is included, if there
is a God. If you are using it in the sloppier sense, as one might speak
of
alternate universes with different constants, or in the "many worlds"
sense...as a substitute, for instance, for "space-time continuum"...then
it is possible to envision a Creator outside of the space and time we
know.

RC> Thus, the question of causes for initial conditions is merely
RC> pushed back away from the observable universe to some vague
RC> phantom of imagination which has no explanation for its initial
RC> conditions.

AS> Indeed.

RC> So you agree that you aren't explaining "the initial conditions"
RC> after all. Interesting.

It's interesting how  you deleted the statement after that...in which I
mentioned instead you have an unintelligent universe, with no explanation
for its initial conditions. Either way you get something with no
explanation of its initial conditions, Robert.  It's what's known as a
"First Cause". The difference is I believe the First Cause is intelligent
and selected the conditions for the universe. You would perhaps maintain
the universes' initial conditions simply ARE, and that even the oddly
selected constants...falling only in the range that would allow
intelligent life...have no previous intellect to select such constants in
such specific ranges.






... When subtlety fails us, we must resort to cream pies.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:10:50
EID:08ca 222d5140
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f7
>   I also wonder how we would counter a claim from the parapsychology
> crowd...how some would claim it's man's innate "psychic" powers acting
> rather than a deity. Suggestions? Not just from you, Marilyn, anyone got


DR> This claim is not so difficult to counter.  Let's say for
DR> discussion's sake that man's innate psychic powers do on occasion heal
DR> him.  Does this disprove God?  No.  If the God that created man did
so
DR> with this ability as a component placed therein, just like the ability
DR> to learn how to fix a sick/damaged body, the healing is still of God
in
DR> that the ability itself is a gift from Him.  This same psychic ability,
DR> providing it does exist, did not create man so it cannot used to deny
DR> the existence of the Creator even if it does have the power to heal
a
DR> person. 


Granted, it doesn't DISPROVE such. It doesn't give evidence for a God,
either. We are trying to rule out all possible influences, and I'm afraid
such a test might either be claimed both by the theistic crowd, and the
parapsychology crowd.



... I am Cthulhu of Borg, and you are in some SERIOUS trouble.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:19:43
EID:8a24 222da260
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f8
AS>  You can't, and that's an excellent point. Except perhaps to 
AS> think if you  take a large enough group, both as a control 
AS> group and the group being  prayed for, that such things will 

MG> A large group is getting into the realm of your discussion with Curry
MG> about the sample space.  If you make your number of individuals large
MG> enough, pretty soon you have the whole population. 
MG> But, as you point out, the variables here are impossible to control
MG> for. 

Yep. Do you have a better suggestion for how to test whether prayer
actually works or not?




... Too many people confuse free speech with loose talk.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  10:19:42
EID:fe8a 222d5260
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03f9
DC> Having seen how he treats others via his own "written word", 
DC> he's a pety despot.  

AS> Who incarnated Himself as one of His subjects and endured a trial and
AS> execution by them...for them?
ML> 
ML> Sheesh...talk about melodramatic.

So is calling Him a "petty despot".




... May the Illuminati illuminate your eyes.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Christians v Guns
|Date: 13 Jan 97  11:07:13
EID:b97b 222d58e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03fa
AS>  I stand corrected. Which is ANOTHER reason I don't keep a gun in 
AS> my house.  I'm not too afraid of a member of my family, in a 
AS> rage, shooting me. But  accidental shootings? You betcha.

MG> You should be scared of both equally.

Nyaaahhh. But I know the people involved, you don't. Being purposely shot
is not a big worry.

MG> You would be equally dead.  I wonder why your god would let a two year
MG> old accidentally find a gun left out by a careless owner and shoot the
MG> owner or worse, a brother or sister. 

Because we invent engines of destruction and then leave them out for
infants to play with. The same reason I didn't expect God to stop us from
atom bombing ourselves to death.
We collectively need to learn responsibility, as a race, every bit as
much as individuals do. And we will never learn it if our hands are held.


... "God bless you all and give you more sense."--Father Brown  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Christians v Guns
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:21:14
EID:becf 222da2a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03fb
AS> Oh? You surprise me. What weapon is most used in violent deaths?

ML> According to the DEA (not inclusive of all homicides, but only
ML> those in the pervue of the DEA) fully automatic weapons (Uzis,
ML> the AK family, Mac's and the like) and semi-automatics (9 and
ML> 10 mm, .40 and .45 caliber) are responsible for 78% of DEA
ML> related (i.e., drug-related) homicides.

But isn't that a slightly skewed sample? One would expect drug dealers to
have better arnament than the average homicide.

AS> Is that just professional criminals (repeat offenders, say) or does
AS> that include one-time murders, first bank robberies, etc.? Not
AS> disputing you. Honestly curious.

ML> Quality handguns, particularly foreign imports, have quite well
ML> and true put paid to the old "SNS" line. The availability of
ML> relatively inexpensive and large capacity handguns have sent
ML> cheaply made 6-shot revolvers to that place where all
ML> evolutionary rejects go when natural selection rears it's head.

Just shows my gun-buying days are decades back...

ML> It's a valid analogy; the SNS was selected against. Not
ML> necessarily a *good* thing, mind you; but a valid representation
ML> of the phenomena.

Right. Why get the cheap model when you can get the one with bigger
capacity?

AS> I was about to say; there should be a lot more stressed on gun safety
AS> and precaustions.

ML> The course consists of (A.) know your weapon (it's really
ML> necessary to de-deify firearms; many people believe them to be
ML> magical), (B.) know the laws and (C.) know yourself. There are
ML> some rather graphic scenes of the results of shootings (it
ML> really didn't bother me, I was an EMT for a while in college
ML> and still an avid hunter...bullets don't merely make one fall
ML> over with a "Oh.."), the shock and horror of what high velocity
ML> bodies impacting living tissue caused more than one person to
ML> leave the course. They stress the times that deadly force can
ML> be used (it's rather amazing, it's nowhere near as restricted
ML> as most believe...particularly in Texas) and the results and
ML> ramifications of using that force.

That's MUCH better than in Tennessee, last I heard. Of course, the last
time I was interested in it was decades ago.

ML> Cast a gander at the Internet and do a Web search for "God".
ML> Simply amazing that these people can operate a computer, much
ML> less exchange gasses autonomically without daily coaching.

AS> The Leipzig school of not-making-generalizations.

ML> Enroll now.

Maybe you and the David Worrell School of Snide Remarks could become the
Styx University?

AS> Did I tell you about a former preacher of mine who visited a South
AS> American country...where the political regime was a tad
AS> oppressive...who didn't take the elementary precaution of learning a
AS> little Spanish before he went? He took a picture of a soldier
AS> (actually, of the building behind the soldier, but the soldier was in
AS> it) and walked away. The soldier called "Alto!" Not knowing it meant
AS> "stop" my preacher friend kept walking. Then he heard the rifle being
AS> cocked. He didn't need a translator for THAT. He stayed stock still,
AS> as his camera was confiscated. Yes. We did give him Spanish lessons
AS> for the next time he visited down there.

ML> A very novel, though quite effective way, of committing
ML> suicide.

Yes. At the very least, if I go to a non English-speaking country, I'm
studying a phrasebook. I hate to rely on the English-speaking skills of
others, no matter how badly I mismangle the language. (Unfortunately, my
sister is the real linguist in the family, though my Spanish is passable,
and I can read French a bit.)

ML> tours in the Nam, I tend to accept what he says about matters
ML> military as truthful.
AS>
AS> Then I will too, and stand corrected.

ML> And you're quite welcome.

No problem.

AS> I have one kid who would stay up all night if he could. Another who
AS> often wakes up at 4 am. I have heard some awfully STRANGE sounds in
AS> the middle of the night...let's just say in my particular case, I
AS> sleep a lot better for NOT having a gun in the house, locked up or no.

ML> Ah, ha! A free will choice. Allow others the same courtesy.

Right. The only problem I have is that rather haunting example of someone
smuggling a handgun into school and blowing someone's brains out...by
accident. But, then, nothing is safe. A woman was sleeping peacefully and
had a meteorite fall and wound her thigh.

ML> True. Truth be told, I fear an idiot with a straight razor (now
ML> seen making a comeback in local gangs) more than firearms.
AS>
AS> I think it was Dorothy Sayers who had one of his characters get out
AS> of a duel by his choice of weapons..."He didn't like my choice of
AS> weapons. A firearm MIGHT hit someone. A dueling saber usually WILL."

ML> ICBM's at 6.023E+07 paces...

I always liked fencing, even though I was too slow to be any good at it.
Back to John Carter/D'Artagnan fantasies, I guess...

AS> But if there were a law against them, there would be a rough decade
AS> or two...and the old ones would fall into disuse, and be unable to be
AS> repaired or replaced...and things would become a lot safer.

ML> Guns don't have all that many moving parts and Al, there are
ML> millions floating around. A well maintained gun will last
ML> generations.

He says, getting his Puritan flintlock off the mantlepiece...

AS> My father's died, and my mother's uninterested in guns, so I was not
AS> aware of Texas' laws about that. (They live/lived in Houston.)
ML>
ML> It's here, enacted for over a year.

Good to know. Considering the crime rate in Houston, last I heard, it was
needed.

AS> Yes. Who get sucked into it usually when they are younger. But it's
AS> true that restricting handguns won't stop gangs. They'll just go to
AS> chains or some other offensive weapon.

ML> Then we try to legislate them away? Put some teeth into the
ML> existing laws; don't go around adding more flotsam to the
ML> judaical system.

Sure, add some teeth to it. But that's a double-edged sword. If the law
is
TOO harsh and unyielding, the judge has little discretion...and if it
seems to harsh in a particular case, he will try to let them off on a
technicality. Too often too harsh a law results in the person getting off
scott-free.

AS> Good for him! (And arguing against my own position...I suppose one
AS> could make a case that rifles have caused more catastrophic change in
AS> the US. Look at Lee Harvey Oswald and James Earl Ray and what THEY did
AS> with rifles, and the change it made on society...yet I don't want to
AS> ban rifles...)

ML> That'll be (a la the 'slippery slope') next.

And of course, that's a danger too...

AS> I believe you. It's hard not to think of the USSR as a single,
AS> Eurasian nation anymore. I guess I'm showing my age...

ML> So's your .gif...

If you're ever in Nashville, look me up, and then see if I look much older
than my .gif.

AS> The guns will eventually fall into disuse if they were baned
AS> altogether, save those taken or robbed from military installations.
If
AS> we make it a mere matter of education, they will still be in
AS> circulation. As for the criminal element, obviously this will not
AS> affect them greatly, save to compound felonies when caught.

ML> Indeed. Put some teeth into existing laws and enforce them.
ML> That and education will eventually be THE answer.

As long as you don't make it so harsh that judges look for ways to let
offenders off.

ML> Education does seem to be the key; that's what I stress in the
ML> gun safety courses I've taught.

AS> Good.

ML> And I continue to do so.

Glad to hear it.



... He who laughs, lasts.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Christians v Guns                                        [2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:42:14
EID:74a5 222da540
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03fc
MB> With any care at all, a gun virtually lasts forever.  And, to
MB> top it off, anybody with rudimentary skills can make a fairly
MB> workable gun in his basement with nothing more than a lathe
MB> and patience.  In fact, you don't even need the lathe; the
MB> "hoods" in the 60's made zipguns in tenements, with nothing
MB> more than the will to do so.

AS> Interesting. Are zipguns a big problem in European countries, such as
AS> England, where personal firearms are more controlled?

ML> Nope, as gun control laws only affect the law abiding. It may
ML> keep firearms out of the hands of those who follow law; but
ML> guns (on the black market) are quite available. Ever hear of a
ML> little place called Belfast?

Sure. Do they use zipguns for the most part?

AS> -!- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]

ML> Has it been 30 days all ready?

No, and here I have been dragging my heels. I paid for registration
something like two years ago. You may remember where I offered to send
SLMR to another Christian because he would never register? Well, Barb
tried to use Blue Wave to pull down her email messages a month or two ago,
when her Eudora was giving her fits (our BBS was our email provider, so
that worked) and couldn't make it work. (She uses Blue Wave about as oftne
as I do Eudora...i.e., not at all.) She got mad and started deleting the
file she pulled down, and deleted the wrong thing. Realizing her mistake,
she repulled Blue Wave down from a local BBS, a nonregistered version, of
course...
And then realized our registration number had been burned up in the fire
last year.
So we have made two calls to Blue Wave, trying to convince them that
even though our address has changed somewhat, and we don't have the
registration number any more, yes, this IS the same Al Schroeder who
registered it quite a while ago. (That's also why I didn't upgrade to 2.2
when it came out, since I didn't have the registration number.)
Well, whatever. I guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet and pay the
registration fee again, otherwise appear like a hypocrite. But I offer as
proof a post from months back...
(begin quote)
Ä Area: fido.holysmoke ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 914                                          Date: 11-05-96  02:02
From: Al Schroeder                                 Read: Yes    Replied:
No 
To: Robert Curry                                 Mark: Save            

Subj: ORIGINAL QUESTION
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ



... Infinity is just time on an ego trip.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

Ä Area: fido.holysmoke ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 916                                          Date: 11-05-96  04:02
From: Al Schroeder                                 Read: Yes    Replied:
No 
To: Robert Curry                                 Mark: Save            

Subj: OPI
(end quote) 
To validate that I had registered. I know it's not very much. I just hate
paying again for something I paid before. Still, if it must be, it must
be.
But I did want Christmas to be safely over, so my kids would have the best
Christmas possible. I'm sending out for my registration...make that my
RE-registration...tonight, since I can't convince them otherwise.




... If you see any misspelled words it HAS to be line noise.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  coincidence one
|Date: 13 Jan 97  12:59:08
EID:3376 222d6760
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03fd
AS> Indeed. But there is ALSO the chance that the dealer, knowing
AS> your birthday, was adroit enough with the cards to shuffle
AS> them that way. Correct? It would be especially interesting if
AS> that was the only hand you had ever been dealt in your life,
AS> and will ever be dealt. (As the constants we observe are the
AS> only ones that have existed in the universe's timespan.)

MB> You are assuning that. How do you know it's true? How do you know
MB> there hasn't been an infinite number of universes before this one,
MB> and an infinite number of universes that will exist after this one
MB> is sucked into a humongous black hole? You are making a very basic
MB> assumption without one shred of evidence.

A infinitely oscillating universe will run out of steam, it's been shown.
So we can't have an infinite amount of previous or succeeding universes.
And an infinite amount of hypothetical, unevidenced universes, to explain
the one universe we observe, is a lousy explanation, and would be cut out
by Occam's razor...or rather, should be accepted only if there is no other
explanation that will fit. An explanation, for instance, with only ONE
hypothetical, unproven entity (a Creator say) should be accepted before
one that has BILLIONS of hypothetical, unproven entities. (Billions of
alternative universes.)




... Error, no Keyboard - Press F1 to Continue.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  coincidence one
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:00:02
EID:a69f 222d6800
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03fe
DC> Use your imagination, Al.  Assume that the rapture occured and 
DC> you didn't make the cut.  

There are days where that wouldn't surprise me.




... Die smiling, life is too important to take seriously.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  coincidence one
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:24:35
EID:f612 222da300
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db03ff
RC> And the odds for this particular combination?
AS> Got me. I assume random shuffling out of a 52-card deck.

RC> It is only to be expected that you haven't a clue, given your evident
RC> misperceptions regarding elementary probability, Al.

Tsk, tsk. It almost matches your misconceptions about cosmology.

AS>> And you realize that your birthday is Oct. 27th, 1953.
RC> Except that it's not. Sorry. Though that could possibly be
RC> "spooky" for superstitious people who *were* born on that day,

AS> *Sigh* Use your imagination, Robert.

RC> Get a decent education, Al, rather than just spouting off nonsense.
RC> Unless that is prohibited by your religious dogma.

As it was prohibited for Newton, Lemaitre, Lewis, Sayers, Tolkien,
Williams...?
And are you prohibited by...what? Your prejudices? From using your
imagination?

AS> Assume, for an instant, that it is.

RC> Why?

For the sake of the example? But as you wish. After all, according to
those who study the non-science of astrology, it would make you with a sun
sign of Scorpio, with a clear penetrating mind, and sexually attractive
to
the opposite sex. Perhaps you are wise to decline such, even for the sake
of the example.  It would be too much of a stretch.

RC> I take it that you've decided to back off away from your ignorant
RC> belief that a royal flush is "less random" than the above hand.
RC> Is that correct?

AS> Hmmm. Where did I say the hand dealt above is less random than a
AS> royal flush? Specifically?

RC> You didn't say that the hand dealt above was less random; you said
RC> that a royal flush would be "less random."

Than the above hand? That IS what you said, Robert. Where did I say that?

RC> Nice backpeddle, though.

Yes, yours is.




... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Credit Cards
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:08:38
EID:15af 222d6900
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0400
DC> (Pesonally, I'd hold out for the private lessons from 
DC> Shalla Bahl!)  

AS> Especially as drawn by John Buscema. (Rrrrrrrr!!!) It's Shalla Bal

DC> He was probably their best artist.  

He certainly was a fine one; although I preferred Barry Windsor-Smith on
Conan.

AS> BTW, but don't mind me, I'm a comic purist. And a lot of fans would
AS> have liked to have her ask, "shalla bal?"

DC> Fer sure!  Then, too, I think he also drew the Belit series for 
DC> Conan.  I think they were probably the best of the lot.  

Just as the original Belit story was probably the best of the original
Robert E. Howard stories.



... There's no future in time travel.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  Dander raising
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:20:14
EID:d138 222d6a80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0401
GtP>> That is about to change.  We are setting her up a point with a spell
GtP>> checker. 

AS>  Ahhh, the Todd family is like the Hydra of Greek legend. Insult one,
and
AS>  two pop up... not exactly what David was aiming for, is it?  

GT> {chuckle}

Well, it caused ME to smile, too...



... Rejoice evermore. (1 The 5:16)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  Dander raising
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:24:49
EID:f484 222d6b00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0402
AS>  Ahhh, the Todd family is like the Hydra of Greek legend. Insult one,
and
AS>  two pop up... not exactly what David was aiming for, is it?  

GtP>   Indeed.  And there are more who haven't joined the fray,
GtP> but who are thinking about it.  Matthew, who is too young to be
GtP> exposed without supervision, has some choice things to say to David.

GtP> Imagine my surprise that he would defend his sib, who he claims to
GtP> hate.    Sibs. . .ahhh, joy. 

Of course, they hate each other, but watch out if an OUTSIDER picks on
them. Me and my brother were the same way. (And my two autistic sons, they
have a sibling rivalry, all the more funny for being nonverbal.) Nobody
in
my family who can use a computer beside myself are interested in HS. So
I'll be the solitary Schroeder here.

GtP> As I said last night, I imagine this will all blow over in a week or
GtP> so and JJ and David will find others to harass.  It seems to be
GtP> cyclical.  This is the second or third time JJ has decided to flame
GtP> the "witch freaks". 

As opposed to the "Jesus freaks" where it is always open season to
flame...(not specifically JJ, who is relatively nice about it, even if he
thinks we're crazy). I suspect every so often the dichotomy between
flaming Christians for their "superstitious beliefs" and not flaming
pagans for theirs occasionally gets to them.




... I was sane once.  Didn't particularly care for the experience.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  feed
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:32:42
EID:ed5a 222d6c00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0403
DC> The building inspector is still wondering why my kitchen has 
DC> lead-lined walls.   

AS> And a bomb shelter, no doubt...

DC> LOL!  Funny you should mention that...  There's a place across 
DC> the Bay that does metal 'welding' by dynamiting the different 
DC> metals.  They don't do it often, but they usually do it on 
DC> my days off and this place shakes!  

Right when you're making a souffle, right?



... She attracts me like a magnet, Tom said ironically.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Fredric the Troll
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:37:43
EID:1904 222d6ca0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0404
rm> And you have about the same level of ethics as Appleton too.
rm> If you have something to say to me, address it to me, Fred.

FR>   Neat!  Now I'm a Creationist troll.

as> Nyaahhhh. Just a troll.

FR> Whatever I may or may not be, the important thing is that unlike you
I
FR> don't suffer from willful self-deception and delusional thinking.  In

How would you know? If you are self-deceived and delusional, you would,
ipso facto, be the last one to judge accurately.

FR> the broad scheme of things, whatever else I might be, I win, and you
FR> lose. 

Ahhhh. PLEASE tell me how much better off you are than me. I could use the
laugh.


FR> ~*~  EVERYONE FROM THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. - Christopher
FR> Calabrese 

I don't usually comment on taglines, but what the hey, since it was
obviously to get my goat. All I can say is that you just also maligned
Robert Curry, David Worrell, Mike Hardy, and many another participant
here. Me, I'm laughing at you.
My sister in France is also.




... I love oral sex......it's the phone bill I hate!!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  freedom and life
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:39:07
EID:ee7e 222d6ce0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0405
GtP>> BETWEEN the bones, Al.  It was supposed to be the fulfillment of
GtP>> prophesy that no bones were broken.

AS>  Right you are. I stand corrected.

GtP> I just can't stand to see it recounted wrong, even if it is a myth
GtP> from my pov. 

I feel the same way about Norse mythology, which I know pretty well, too.




... I was the next door kid's imaginary friend.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  GET SPECIFIC
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:45:35
EID:9e07 222d6da0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0406
GtP>> then a nonseqitur. Guess it's only fair.  We took Michael.  I think
GtP>> we got the better deal. 

AS>  You did indeed.
AS>  Unfortunately.

GtP> Well, maybe I can pretend to be Christian for awhile so you have some
GtP> intelligent company.  I was thinking that I am probably the best
GtP> person I knew to start another sect of xtianity that was based totally
GtP> on the alledged teachings of Jeshua and were more woman friendly. 

May I suggest you read the writings of Dorothy L. Sayers, if you do?
Thirties' mystery writer, translator of Dante, poet, playwright, feminist,
and Christian apologist.






... History repeats itself when nobody listens.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  Hello
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:27:31
EID:4a1b 222da360
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0407
AS>  Are you aware there is a superheroine of that same name? (DC's Teen
AS>  Titans, early eighties...)

GT> Yep.   Appropriate.    Maybe we should research it.   (I never
GT> collected DC.) 

Alien from a planet around Vega, an alien babe in a skimpy costume who can
fly and throw off energy blasts, and had a thing for Robin/Dick
Grayson/Nightwing. Not inhibited. When she wanted to change to her
costume, not realizing the mores of Earth, did so right in front of a
VERY interested older guy on a bench waiting for a bus.



... "Always Ask the Next Question!" --Theodore Sturgeon  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Starfire
|Sub:  Hello
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:56:35
EID:7efd 222d6f00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0408
AS>  Are you aware there is a superheroine of that same name? (DC's Teen
AS>  Titans, early eighties...)

St> Actually I hadn't heard I got my name from the song Star Fire from
St> Minus ten and Counting. Hows life in Florda? 

Ahhh, I see. The comics Starfire was an alien, uninhibited, female, and
beautiful.
As for life in Florida, I think you may have me confused with another.
Curry and the departed-from-the-echo Jesse Jones post from Florida, I hail
from Nashville, Tennessee.




... If everything seems to go right, check your zipper!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  HOLYSMOKE
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:00:06
EID:2941 222d7000
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0409
>> John Jeanneault
FR>> Is calling for the distruption of a FidoNet echo
FR>> an actionable offence or does the resentful fascist
FR>> Nazi Christian have to actually do it first?
DR> A single call to the offending BBS from Styx would
DR> end the problem. Therefore, why would the fundy bother?

SQ> Perhaps a call to Fido HQ is in order?

ML> It is time to have Al call his family.


They are denying any relationship like mad.



... I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  humor the fundy fools
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:07:55
EID:d40d 222d70e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db040a
FR> He's turning into a metafundy.  He wants to make things which are
FR> manifest in existance equal to those which are not and then attribute
FR> belief to both. 

No; I'm pointing out that belief is necessary even to what we experience,
in what is manifast. To Joan of Arc, voices from Heaven are manifast. Do
you accept those implicitedly? Everything you "know" you perceive by your
senses. Are your senses always right?
Can you show evidence that anything but "I" exists? That there is
anything beyond, "I think, therefore I am"? I'm sorry if the word BELIEF
offends you so. Nevertheless, it is the only one that fits.



... Anything is possible, unless it's not.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  humor the fundy fools
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:47:31
EID:0d2b 222da5e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db040b
RC> Of course not, as having *belief* in that which is right
RC> in front of you has to be the most superfluous thing I've
RC> ever heard of.

AS> Indeed.

RC> So are you finished with the ridiculous "you do so have belief"
RC> thread?

Not exactly. How do you distinguish between individual hallucination of
what is in front of you, and the real thing? And you can't appeal to the
testimony of others, because you might be hallucinating THEM too...

AS> Of course, I know a person who thinks he sees angels and
AS> God right in front of him.

RC> Get any interesting descriptions?

Quite a few. He saw God all in a cloud, a cloud draped over Him like a
loincloth. And blue. Like I said, the sixties were pretty good to this
individual. Plus, I suspect him of using memories of Zeus in Disney's
FANTASIA, the "Pastoral Symphony" sequence.

AS> If a leprauchaun popped up right in front of you, would you
AS> credit it?

RC> Sure, why not?

Then doubtless you think David Copperfield performs ACTUAL violations of
the laws of physics, rather than sleight of hand and tricks? That he
really made, for instance, the Statue of Liberty disappear.
I wonder if we will hear, "B-b-but that's DIFFERENT!"
How?

AS> Daisy the pink flying hippo?

RC> She's invisible.

Very well, Daffodil, her visible flying pink hippo cousin.

AS> You implicitedly credit the evidence of your senses in all
AS> cases, no matter HOW unlikely?

RC> Certainly. Note that this does not involve any *belief* however.

Than how can you tell apart individual hallucination from reality?

AS> Do you believe all your dreams were actual occurences,

RC> No, I don't "believe" anything about them. You don't listen well.

Let me try it another way. What distinguishes your dreams from your waking
life? How do you distinguish which is real?

AS> or do you believe (as I do) that they are temporary mental
AS> states that have no bearing on reality?

RC> Again, no belief on the matter. And dreams do have a bearing on
RC> reality, even if only on the reality of a person's mental state.

Do you then, think that one falling in a dream is in as much danger as one
falling in real life? And how do you distinguish the two?

AS> And are you sure you are not dreaming right now, and by what
AS> criteria do you determine that?

RC> My dreams are never as boring as your posts.

Cute, but unresponsive.  And why do you waste so much time responding to
someone you consider so "boring"? You address me much more than anyone
else on the echo. Methinks thou doth protest too much...

AS> Are you still sure it is superfluous?

RC> Quite.

Then if you had a dream about winning a million dollars, would you then
wake up and write checks drawing upon that million dollars?
Why or why not?  How do you determine the difference between the two?




... It's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!  
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  humor...........
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:36:06
EID:6717 222d7480
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db040c
AS>  Of course, we may be closer to the Three Stooges...

GT> Y'mean Daddy-O, Junior, and Spookie?

It's odd how the trinity motif reoccurs. Odin and his two brothers shaped
the existing Midgard out of the remains of Ymir...




... Power corrupts.  Absolute power is kinda neat.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Hypocritical people
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:41:16
EID:aa53 222d7520
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db040d
ch> I'm not Lutheran, but most Tuesday nights I go alone into a local
ch> Lutheran chapel to pray.  Always voluntarily.  If you don't go
ch> voluntarily, you're wasting both your, and God's, time.

FR> No Christanic death cultist ever thinks at their deity constructs

"thinks at"? Excuse me, while I telepathically send a message to
Jehovah...

FR> willingly. They do so out of fear and resentment.  The fear of death
FR> is underscored with the fear of "eternal torment."  Towards the ends
FR> of avoiding this pretend problem, they pretend to believe. 
FR> Wants some quotes?  I can produce a dozen which show why death
FR> cultists cling to their cult. 

Please do.
I have a quote file full of people like Dorothy L. Sayers, Charles
Williams, G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien.
Wanna bet I can produce two dozen for every dozen you produce that do
not depend on fear and resentment, but love and gratitude?



... I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  I'll be back...
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:02:55
EID:1ba3 222d7840
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db040e
AS> The eyes are by far the most expressive parts of the face, and often
AS> the "window of the soul". I notice something else in common with the
AS> above...they're all knockout brunettes. Personally, although there

DC> Strange, now that you mention it....  Bernie's got brown hair, too.

DC> And, as in the previous message, I rate her above the above!  

Blondes may have more fun, but brunnettes are more fun to be fun with!

AS> are many beautiful blonde women, I notice in me a tendency to be more
AS> attracted to brunnettes. (And yes, Barb is a brunette, very dark

DC> Well, there are a couple of Crystals that I know that are quite 
DC> attractive, and a couple of Wendys, but one of them has black hair!


And there are certainly some blondes that I would give a second look to...



... Veni Vidi Fetuccini: I came, I saw, I had lunch.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  in passing
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:30:47
EID:b5b6 222da3c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db040f
AS> I'm not at all afraid of it. And as we see, you understood me.

RC> Certainly I understood you -- you were the one asking for elucidation,
RC> if you recall. I even spent some moments providing support for the
RC> rather trivial claim that I made, which you for some reason had
RC> trouble accepting, even though you know that I do not make mathematical
RC> claims lightly -- and never without the ability to back them up, unless
RC> I say so in the first place. I'm very conscious of these things.

Good to know.

AS> Good to know you can actually back up your claim. The way you
AS> were going all into offended mode for my asking, I was beginning
AS> to wonder...

RC> "Offended mode?" A touch of exasperation, perhaps, at your seemingly
RC> willful ignorance every time I mention the existence of multiple
RC> instances or answers, and you demand to see "THE" instance or answer.
RC> In this thread, it was the infinite number of patterns -- inspiring
RC> you to demand evidence of "THE" pattern.

And later "a pattern".

AS> now, a question. In these numerous patterns of pi, after the
AS> 10,000th decimal point, can you predict, say, any three numbers
AS> in sequence in the next hundred numbers after that?

RC> Certainly they can be calculated, yes. The best sort of prediction
RC> one can possibly manage.

Hmmm.

AS> Or in the next thousand numbers?

RC> Again, yes.

Good, good.

AS> Without looking it up,

RC> Obviously yes. How do you think it's possible to look it up in the
RC> first place? Because it was first possible to calculate.

So you do so only by brute calculation of each successive digit of pi, or
by following the dictates of the pattern? Just curious.

AS> if there have been that many digits of the determination
AS> of pi printed out?

RC> Check Yahoo. Over a million digits of the decimal expansion of pi
RC> have been calculated, and are available on the Web, if you happen
RC> to be interested.

Thank'ee kindly.


AS> By a pattern alone, or no? Just wondering. Answer back or not
AS> as you wish.

RC> It could be done using the pattern I provided for you above, even
RC> though that's a terribly inefficient numerical method, yes. There
RC> are other patterns better suited to efficient calculation of a
RC> decimal (or any other radix) representation.

Good to know.

RC> Although this answers your follow-up question as stated, I suspect
RC> that you may be having some difficulty asking what you mean to ask,
RC> which could possibly be related to some confusion about patterns.

Oh? What sort of confusion?

RC> Feel free to continue with further follow-up questions as you wish,
RC> and so long as you remember to say please and thank you I will be
RC> delighted to assist.

Please read THE ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGICAL PRINCIPLE by Tipler and Barrow.
Thank you.
Please read BEFORE THE BEGINNING, by George Ellis. Thank you.
Please read COSMIC COINCIDENCES, by Gribbin and Rees. Thank you.
Please read GOD AND THE NEW PHYSICS and THE MIND OF GOD, by Paul Davies.
Thank you.




... My mind isn't always in the gutter--sometimes it comes out to feed.

--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  in passing
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:31:08
EID:e64f 222d7be0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0410
DC> Never read that.  However, I did read Asimov's short story on Entropy.

AS> Title? Asimov wrote so much...

DC> _Entropy_  

Ahhhh...then I HAVE read that one. But it's like saying Asimov's short
books on robots, as opposed to "I, Robot".
I liked it when the computer said, "Let there be light". There was an
interesting story by Poul Anderson, somewhat adapting some of Tipler's
Omega Point ideas, where a person linked with a  computer to see the
future of the universe. One who tried that went nearly mad, with despair,
as he saw the universe eventually falling apart expanding, dying a heat
death...but another who linked with the computer and went a little
further, saw a light at the end of the  universe...and a message. "You
have forgotten your descendents, and the changes WE can make in the
universe." I.E., our distant descendents would have the technology to make
even changes in the entire cosmos, and determine the fate of the universe.




... Operator, trace this call and tell me where I am.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  into my parlor
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:45:24
EID:74a6 222d7da0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0411
AS> Sarcasm deaf. Not surprised.

RC> If you wish to believe others are deaf, you have the right to delude
RC> yourself. Freedom of religion, and all that. In any case, my response
RC> to your childish verbiage was sincere.

Oh, of COURSE it is, Robert.

AS> What error? I asked you to back up your assertion.

RC> Exactly, when I asserted you were in error about pi. Hello? Anyone
RC> home? 

What error? I asked for a pattern. Or the pattern.

AS> And rob myself of such priceless entertainment? By no means.

RC> Not only entertaining, but educational as well, if you are actually
RC> listening and manage to retain the information being imparted.

Which seems more than one can say of you.

AS> Then why get all offended how I ask you?

RC> The boorishness that characterizes many of your posts is more
RC> tiresome than offensive, Al. I have never been offended by anything
RC> expressed here (by you or anyone else). My suggestions were to help
RC> you become less boorish in your behavior. Follow them or not, as you
RC> prefer.

Coming from one who regularly characterizes others as "morons", one can
only wonder if you recognize everyone's boorishness but your own.

AS> Thank you for stepping in it. Period.

RC> You really should clean up after yourself when you leave such messes
RC> around, you know. It would only be sanitary.

I know, but I couldn't get the bedpan under you in time.



... This tagline does not exist. Provide evidence otherwise.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Latest Martinez disaster
|Date: 13 Jan 97  15:47:55
EID:94fa 222d7de0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0412
 Could be. As you see, I answer a lot a day. But 400??? He may be just
AS> getting junk email...

ML> And ye shall reap what you sow...


Haven't heard much from The British Supermensa lately. Wonder why?



... I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  lies or just idiocy?
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:33:54
EID:a805 222da420
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32db0413
RC> No "domain theory" does that, either. Are you really so DENSE, Al?

AS> I notice in what you reprinted, you did not reprint your actual
AS> statement...which I reproduced...yet again...for all to see.

RC> You need me to hold your hand through this? OK, if you really want to:

AS> ---------------------------------------------------
AS>> There is NO EVIDENCE for those other domains, Robert.
AS>
AS> Yet their logical possibility helps to define the probabilistic
AS> sample space.

RC> Where's the "domain theory" in that, Al? Where did I say that any
RC> "doamin theory" helped to define anything? Are you really so stupid?

The logical POSSIBILITY of domains--i.e., domains are not proven, but
remain a THEORY..."helps to define the probabilistic sample space".

AS> Did you not write the above?  We were certainly talking about
AS> domains.

RC> You were babbling about domains, yes. I was pointing out that logical
RC> possibilites help to define a probabilistic sample space. There was

Robert. Again. What does "their" refer to? In response to "those other
domains" it is fair to assume you were referring to those other domains.
Were you not?

RC> no mention of any "domain theory" until after you introduced that
RC> entirely misleading and misrepresentative phrase into the thread much
RC> later on.

Excuse me? We were discussing domains. I specifically said that there was
no evidence for such. That makes them---surprise!--THEORETICAL, right?

RC> Logical possibilities help to define sample spaces, yes.

RC> You may give up the ridiculous misrepresentation that I ever said
RC> a "domain theory" helped to do ANYTHING.

Then WHAT are you referring to below as "their" logical possibility "helps
to define the probabilistic sample space"?

AS> ---------------------------------------------------
AS>> There is NO EVIDENCE for those other domains, Robert.
AS>
AS> Yet their logical possibility helps to define the probabilistic
AS> sample space.



RC> Or you may continue as Al B.

Or you may continue to kneejerk. Making yourself look more and more
ridiculous....




... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.

--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 116/17 62 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub:  Our Daily Slave
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:01
EID:b26e 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a0b
TID: GE/2 1.2
RS> Isn't that mental enslavery, Moothy?
GM> We are all in mental salavery.

All those who choose the mental slavery of religious dogmatism, yes.
So your masters have finally allowed you to speak! How intriguing.


GM> You just have to choose who you want to be the slave of.

Not likely.

We aren't all trapped in your madhouse of make believe, George.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARILYN BURGE
|Sub:  Cheese Whiz
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:02
EID:fb52 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a0c
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Dave Hamilton
with: Brian Shreve

BS> And this "child" as you say now must go through life knowing
BS> its mother didn't want him or her.

DH> Any adopted child goes through this, genius.

MB> Absolutely false. Many adopted children were wanted very,
MB> very much, but the unwed mother knew she was incapable
MB> of giving the child what all children need: opportunity
MB> (which requires a certain income level), and two parents
MB> in a stable home environment.

Not to mention that adopted children are wanted by those who do
adopt them. That's more than can be said of some who aren't adopted.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub:  Goodbye
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:03
EID:5c01 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a0d
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Brother Jesse praying for all our souls

AS>> Thanks, mine could use all the prayer I can get.
RC>> Would you like ME to pray for you, too?

AS> I'd be delighted.
RC> Let me know when you receive the Twelve Revelations from the GDO.

ML> "GDO"? You still waiting for him?

Since he never leaves Pluto, it would appear so. That's why so many
people don't realize he's a She.

We won't even mention She has twelve heads and created the universe.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  More grist from the web
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:04
EID:8827 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a0e
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: God Dan

AS>> Asking forgiveness is extortion???
DC> It is when the alternative is an eternity of pain and suffering.

AS> Or an eternity of bliss and happiness.

The New, Improved version of your religion's notion of Hell?
Delightful. Sign me up, please.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  Afraid of mortality?
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:05
EID:d94a 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a0f
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS>> Not necessarily. It may be like telling a fetus that there
AS>> is a life beyond the womb. They think of it only in terms of
AS>> the life they knew, and be ignorant of the possibilities out
AS>> there.

RH> I still like my maggot theory. Fits the facts better .

AS> Could be. Or we could be caterpillars, about to turn into
AS> butterflies...

Or roses...

Look to the blowing Rose about us -- "Lo,
Laughing," she says, "into the world I blow,
At once the silken tassel of my Purse
Tear, and its Treasure on the garden throw."

And those who husbanded the Golden grain,
And those who flung it to the winds like Rain,
Alike to no such aureate Earth are turn'd
As, buried once, Men want dug up again.

. . . . . . . . . .

Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare,
And those that after some TO-MORROW stare,
A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries,
"Fools! your Reward is neither Here nor There."

Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss'd
Of the Two Worlds so wisely -- they are thrust
Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn
Are scatter'd, and their Mouths are stopt with Dust.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   FREDRIC RICE
|Sub:  Pray Contest
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:06
EID:c683 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a10
TID: GE/2 1.2
FR> The whole point is that thinking at deities _always_ results in
FR> answers to people's prayers -- and it doesn't matter which gods
FR> one thinks at.  A contest would prove the point and I think
FR> that's why the intended fundy didn't take bait.  He knows that
FR> one could pray at a table cloth and get an answer.

Don't forget: Sometimes the tablecloth's answer is "No."


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  fucked up priorities
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:07
EID:bf58 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a11
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> Jesus came not to heal the well, but the sick, to help those
AS> in need, not those not in need of a physician.

Whereas the church exists to maintain the sickness of the sick,
and to try everything in its power to spread the sickness of religious
superstition where healthy people do without it just fine.


BTW, where is Jesus when little children are raped right before his
allegedly all-seeing eyes?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   GLEN TODD
|Sub:  Dander raising
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:08
EID:1976 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a12
TID: GE/2 1.2
MB>> Isn't there something in POLICY 4 about being excessively
MB>> annoying?

GT>> Styx, you paying attention?

RC> Don't forget the other half -- about not being so easily annoyed.

GT> _I'm_ not annoyed -- I'm laughing.
GT> I just wanted to know if Styx was paying attention.

Oh, do you suppose he likes soap operas, then? Or is this more like
a twinkie opera?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   TIGER EYES
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:09
EID:1aa4 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a13
TID: GE/2 1.2
TE> Not all of us are like you J.J.....I mean when your parents
TE> dumped you off a the local orphanage, for being a freak of
TE> humanity, they really didn't know that you would be so hurt
TE> by it. I feel so sorry for your parents.

On a scale of 1 to 10, this flame has a 0.03 rating.

Don't you have any goofy pagan curses to fling about? That would
be far more entertaining.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARILYN BURGE
|Sub:  FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:10
EID:b620 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a14
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> I simply pointed out that your daughter was overweight.
DW> Your reaction, your husband's reaction, and Marilyn's
DW> reaction showed just how truly *uncomfortable* with your
DW> respective weights all of you are.

MB> Gwen, this is an out-and-out lie, and the lying sack of shit
MB> knows it. I TOLD HIM the reason I spoke up: it was because
MB> he was ragging on the two of you about something you could do
MB> nothing about.

People can do nothing about how comfortable or uncomfortable they
may feel about various trivial personal characteristics?

I'm afraid I'm becoming addicted to this series of "How the Echo
Turns" -- rather frightening, since the whole thing is utterly
stupid. Then again, that's my opinion of religion, as well -- so
maybe the echo is really about religion and OTHER stupid things.



MB> And, I regard that as chicken shit -- especially when he
MB> knows full well that the topic is one that will certainly
MB> push your buttons because you're the parents of the subject
MB> in question.

Chicken shit? Nah, he's just being an ass. Trying for the trophy,
I imagine.

I'm not sure what kind of trophy goes to a parent who deliberately
exposes a child to flames, and then SHOWS the resulting flames
to the child, encouraging her to retaliate with beginner flames
which serve no purpose but to escalate the idiocy at the child's
expense.

What would you suggest?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MIMI MILSTEIN
|Sub:  Five of a sponge
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:11
EID:b606 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a15
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: J.J. Hitt

JJH>  Royal Flush          "My hard drive crashed."

JJH>  Five of a Kind       I'm not at all sure, but we'll see one
JJH>                       before too much more time passes.

MM> I like them all :-)
MM> The last one surely comes under the more miraculous stuff,
MM> like when Jesse Jones makes his triumphant re-entry in HS
MM> as a born-once-again-Buddhist.

Holy fucking shit -- if that happens, I'll drop by your delightful
country to eat sponge cats with Steve Hayes.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub:  Holysmoke convention
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:12
EID:46b4 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a16
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Gwenny the Pooh

GTP> Okay.  Who in this echo sleeps naked and wants to share a room
GTP> with two pagan women.  

KW> Are you trying to start a stampede?   Well, it's one way
KW> to sort out the boys from the men...

Ahem. Is this going to be a convention event?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub:  feed
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:13
EID:8ade 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a17
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> I just saw a message from Katherine telling someone else that
DW> the Pie was all they had to worry about. Was she lying, or
DW> am I somehow special? :)

RC> The first treats are to lure you into a false sense of complacency.
RC> Best to accept them all, graciously, then surreptitiously
RC> dispose of the pie while no one is looking. Or bestow it upon
RC> another worthy recipient.

KW> LOL!!  You weren't supposed to catch on to that so fast!

Sure I was.

I just wasn't supposed to give it away to those who didn't catch on
right away. Sorry. Time to fall back on Plan B.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   FREDRIC RICE
|Sub:  demonic pacts
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:14
EID:c04c 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a18
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC>> I never received my Secret Atheist Undergound instruction manual.
SQ>> Call 1-800-RICEBRO for your copy.

rc> I tried that already, but all I got was a spell checking
rc> program mailed to me that changes correctly spelled words
rc> to the Fred Rice variants.

FR> Just think, with the way things are going in the United States,
FR> _my_ way will eventually become the standard way.  }:-}

Then I most assuredly *WILL* shoot you.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   JIM STAAL
|Sub:  Why you NEED to be bashed
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:15
EID:f2d8 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a19
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Gwenny the Pooh

JS> All that in addition to being a male bashing man hater?

Feeling a bit dented, clown?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   STUART LUMGAIR
|Sub:  'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:16
EID:6959 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a1a
TID: GE/2 1.2
SL> As I recall from my math courses, a long time ago, zero
SL> is not included in one of the number sets.

Many numbers are not members of more restricted sets. Pi is not
included in the algebraic numbers. The square root of five is
not included in the rational numbers. Similarly, zero is not part
of the set of positive integers.


SL> Zero is a lack of any numbers.

Only if pi is the lack of any numbers, too, by the same misguided
and faulty reasoning.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:17
EID:1d63 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a1b
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Dan Ceppa

JB> We don't now grant 'standard reality' to "infinitesimals" in
JB> math;

You are again full of shit, John. Why are you pretending to be an
authority on the subject when you so clearly lack even a rudimentary
understanding of it? Is your ego getting the better of you?


JB> there is no infinitely large number,

Actually, there are many.

Infinities comes in different sizes.
Also, there is a smallest, but no largest.


JB> Does +1 change what it was added to?  (yes)  Does 0 change
JB> what it was added to?  (no)  Does _any_ nonzero number change
JB> the number it is added to?  (yes)  Does zero? (no)

Try multiplication. Then ONE serves as the identity element.
Does that mean it's not a number, either? After all, you seem
to be saying that zero is "not a number" because it is the
additive identity element of a ring.

Why treat the multiplicative identity element differently?

Does 0 change what it was multiplied by? (yes) Does 1 change what
it was multiplied by? (no) Does _any_ nonsingular number change
the number it is multiplied by? (yes) Does one? (no)


JB> I just doubt its "number"-ness. ;)

Thank you, Humpty Dumpty.

Of what possible use is your insistence that all the mathematicians
are wrong while you -- the Quantum Crackpot -- are right?

Ego, is it?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub:  numbers, all
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:18
EID:e181 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a1c
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB> [Zero] was invented more recently than "number" was.
JB> We seem to have gotten along without it for a long time....

We got along without the square root of -1 for a long time, too.
Are you next going to claim that it is also "not a number?"

How about the square root of two? Not a number?

A googleplex? Not a number?

The smallest of Cantor's infinites, aleph-null? Not a number?


Just checking to see if you nonsense knows any bounds.
Somehow I doubt it, but there are times when you act reasonably.


* SLMR 2.1a *

* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   CURTIS JOHNSON
|Sub:  al debunks apple sauce
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:19
EID:2602 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a1d
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> Philosophy (of which science was an outgrowth) BEGAN with Socrates.

CJ>        Take that, Heraclitus, Anaximander, Pythagoras, Thales,
CJ> Protagoras, Anaxagoras, Parmenides, Empedocles, and Anaximenes!
CJ> If it weren't for Al, we would have been fooled into thinking you
CJ> were philosophers!

LOL!


* SLMR 2.1a * 

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* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:20
EID:9a42 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a1e
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> I find it more comforting to have a God who doesn't CARE if you
AS> did good or bad...if you ask for forgiveness.

A teddy bear is real, and doesn't cost nearly as much.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  ...
|Date: 13 Jan 97  05:40:21
EID:8f6c 222d2d00
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1ec58a1f
TID: GE/2 1.2
AS> Prayer isn't sorcery, Marilyn. It's a request.

One that you might as well make of Fred Rice's tablecloth, the
payer-answering equivalent to your god (or any other).


AS> Sometimes the answer is no.

Always it's just as if there is no god at all.
You might just as well pray to Fred Rice's tablecloth.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MIMI MILSTEIN
|Sub:  ?
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:05:07
EID:f48e 222d70a0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1f337521
TID: GE/2 1.2
MM>> What 'grabbed my chain' was your naked cruelty

RC> You must have lived a very sheltered life to consider Ron's
RC> remarks here in this forum examples, somehow, of "naked
RC> cruelty." Bizarrely punctuated, yes, but cruel? Seems to me
RC> that you are overreacting.

MM> Don't you worry your pretty little head with my sheltered life
MM> or my overreactions

It's a public forum, Babe. If you don't want to hear about it, then
don't flaunt your problems.


MM> If Ronald wanted to open Pandora's box

Or Mimi's mouth, mayhap?


MM> by dragging other people's private tragedies into speculative
MM> and maliciously gleeful scenarios he should also expect
MM> strong reactions - from the 'victim' and any other correspondent
MM> feeling that he went over board.

Mimi forbid he should express his opinions when they don't suit you!


MM> I demonstrated exactly what his crude behavior deserved,
MM> contempt.

How charmingly superior of you. (What a fucking crock of shit.)


RC> Heh. Back in the kitchen with you, Madame Pot.

MM> You read my mind :-)  I was just going out there to pour
MM> myself a tall cool glass of something satisfying. While I
MM> am at it, I will fetch you a double Alkaseltzer.

Feel free to drop the medicine in your tall cool glass to quiet
whatever upset you experience from the so-called "naked cruelty"
of Ron daring to voice an opinion about matters raised here in
a public echo.

Maybe you should lie down for a while.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub:  Apostasy
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:05:08
EID:3dcd 222d70a0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1f337522
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: LYNDA BUSTILLOZ

LB> I like to know where I stand without ambiguity.

RC> Well, a little ambiguity seems inevitable from time to time
RC> in any situation. Or is it just me? :-)

ML> Well, yes and no...

Precisely.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:05:09
EID:7736 222d70a0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1f337523
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> I'm the one who was "whine"ing about Stealth Baptists.

Afraid the baptismal water would wash off the facial dirt smudge?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  Matt Giwer
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:05:10
EID:9787 222d70a0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1f337524
TID: GE/2 1.2
DW> Does anyone else here remember Matt Giwer?

Does residing a few miles from him count?


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To:   MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub:  text
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:05:11
EID:a15b 222d70a0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 1f337525
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Simultaneously avoiding an 'English' sense of spelling, as I detest
RC> excessive use of the letter 'u'.

ML> You must unequivocally abhor ululating in a vacuum then.

Sounds futile.


* SLMR 2.1a * 

--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ronald Vass
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  ...
|Date: 12 Jan 97  18:35:00
EID:3251 222c9460
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32D98626
AS> RV> Any wish is a form of praying. Hasn't work on the 649 Loto, yet.

AS> If it does, I hope you will remember your poor...very poor...benighted
AS> Christian friends...

Going by the book of lies, a believer can never be poor with
the love of their god. Your trying to say, god's word is another
lie ?


If i should win, i do have a list of heathens, who could likely
use the help.






AS> of competition...I don't see anything wrong with God sometimes granting
AS> what you pray for, as long as you realize He has to take all the
AS> consequences into account...and not expect miracles. I don't expect
God to
AS> put aside all the laws of nature He has constructed for anything but
the
AS> greatest of reasons.

Does it for one, has to do it for all who ask, since he never answers
any wish alone those lines. He if a male, doesn't give a shit either
way.


AS> RV> And as to the other point, I do at times take it too serious. Agree.

AS> We all do occasionally, in a medium where we can't see expressions.
Don't
AS> worry about it.

I would be worst , face to face. Much easier to express my
thoughts without the poor interface of written words.

* SLMR 2.1a * If It Screams, it's not food . . . . . yet . . . . .

--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-*   Hitler Was A Christian    *-*   (1:221/1503)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 221/1503 1500 100 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ronald Vass
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Al's God of Love
|Date: 12 Jan 97  18:45:00
EID:7d2d 222c95a0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32D98627
AS> AS>   Informal and direct. People at church, when they call me to lead
a
AS> AS> prayer, always like it because they get the feeling I'm TALKING
to
AS> AS> someone. I'm liable to go, "Lord, thank you for the beautiful sunset
AS> AS> yesterday...good job! Thank you for pretty girls, good fellowship,
and
AS> AS> joy in kids' faces. In Jesus' name, Amen." Or in a more thoughtful
vein
AS> AS> "Lord, someday, in a billion billion years, I hope you will allow
us to
AS> AS> a place where pain and trouble and evil are just an elusive memory,
a
AS> AS> painful beginning to a wonderful existence, as we now regard
AS> AS> childbirth...in Jesus' name we pray, Amen." That sort of thing.

AS> RV> "beautiful sunset" --- Atom warheads do that

AS> But didn't.

I see you have only read of selected books.

AS> RV> "pretty girls"  --- head of the line for abuse

AS> Not necessarily. An abuser will abuse whoever is handy.

Bet they are at the head of the list.

AS> RV> "joy in kids faces" --- prior to rape

AS> Not every joyful kid is raped, Ron. Nor most of them.

One is too many.

AS> RV> "thoughtful"   --- what joy of the one who rapes

AS> Or what joy of those who get beyond being raped.

Death does that, other wise you just cope with it.It never quits.


AS> RV> So how about it, Did Your God show his love of humans, By haveing
AS> RV> No Child Rape and abuse    ........... T O D A Y ..............

AS> Is that your test? Then don't hold your breath. He's not going to override
AS> people's minds, even evil people. Because that is MINDrape.

And what does the abuser do, if not mindrape ?

AS> RV> Just Once Al.  Just Once.........Is today the day ?

Yes Al. That is my god test, if the so called god is real.


AS> No; because you don't repay evil with evil. Or rape with rape.
AS> Mindrape...brainwashing...is the worst violation of all. Because your
body
AS> will change, and someday your body will be no more. But if there is
a YOU
AS> there, Ron, it is in your mind.

So Al say's ......save the abuser and fuck what happens to the child.
Cute Al, real cute. At times i wonder if you understand what your
saying.


* SLMR 2.1a * File not found. Remember, you just erased it.

--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-*   Hitler Was A Christian    *-*   (1:221/1503)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 221/1503 1500 100 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ronald Vass
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 12 Jan 97  18:49:00
EID:0562 222c9620
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32D98628
AS> RV> History of the past and present, Christians still Kill those
AS> RV> they feel are non-christians, if they can't get away with killing
AS> RV> them ....... then Christians try for hate or perhaps, to project
AS> RV> that non_christians are less then human.

AS> But I'm a Christian, Ron. Have I EVER implied a non-Christian is less
than
AS> human? Have I even said, to name a famous example, "atheists for the
most
AS> part do not do good works"? I don't think so...

You may think your a christian but i do wonder at times.



AS> RV> Al would  N E V E R  Spin_Doctor the facts by ignoreing the facts.

AS> May I quote you? One might say mentioning ONLY the negative aspects
of



As you wish. 


* SLMR 2.1a * Al placed upside down on a cross,being curse by harppies

--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-*   Hitler Was A Christian    *-*   (1:221/1503)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 221/1503 1500 100 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ronald Vass
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Holysmoke convention
|Date: 12 Jan 97  19:08:00
EID:f497 222c9900
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32D98629
GTP>GTP>> Undoubtedly.  Only David Rice would on it.

GTP>RV> No way. He would sign up, just to get your hormones all stired up.

GTP>RV> Now as if he would actually show up, well thats another kettle of
GTP>RV> fish.

GTP> You've met David Rice, I take it?  Yes, that sounds like somethin
GTP>would do.  


It's along the line, i would pull.

GTP>RV> If for nothing else but to titilate you with a titbit of rice.

GTP>You, sir, are an evil man.  I like that in my friends. 

As a fallen christian, it goes with out saying, to be classed
as evil. Now i just got to live up to it. 


* SLMR 2.1a * Isaiah 45:7. God says that he created evil.-PS

--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-*   Hitler Was A Christian    *-*   (1:221/1503)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 221/1503 1500 100 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ronald Vass
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  creation...
|Date: 12 Jan 97  19:20:00
EID:c098 222c9a80
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32D9862A
>>KW>It's only the pie that you need to worry about, Ronald.   The
>>KW>cookies, cakes, and candy are all safe, and indeed necessary to placat
>>KW>some of our local goddesses.

>RV>Sure Katherine, just the pie. How about i bring my own chocolate
>RV>tibbits to feed the goddess. The way the various HolySmoke Ladies?
>RV>have devise various ways of hidding their little tricks from the
>RV>males here. It would have to be tested on a Marty of the rockhound
>RV>fame, to test for the toxicology effects, first. Perhaps then, just
>RV>perhaps, it may be safe to consume.  

KW>Offerings of chocolate are always welcome.   And we don't hide our
KW>little tricks--we leave them right out in the open and count on male
KW>nature for the results that we want.

Going by the general male stupity when flesh is showen, i can go
along with that.


KW>A properly respectful male is in no danger. ;)

Perhaps but alas the flight of the female mind swings too fast for
any male to keep within that boundary all the time. It's the off
times, we're worry about. 


* SLMR 2.1a * It's a Dogma eat Dogma world

--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-*   Hitler Was A Christian    *-*   (1:221/1503)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 221/1503 1500 100 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Ronald Vass
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Re: test
|Date: 12 Jan 97  19:26:30
EID:e320 222c9b40
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32D9862B
DC> -> On 07 Jan 97  18:02:00, Ronald Vass got back to Dan Ceppa 
DC>  DC>This a a test of OMX/BW & Terminate 
DC>  RV> It didn't work...... see: lieing like a Real True Christian 
DC> I don't believe you......  See:  Skeptic; also, Evidence to 
DC>                            the contary.   ;)  

Dam! .. Evidence beats out belief again.

* SFEMB 0.41 [?] | Killing / War / Rape / Murder =>see Reglion<=
* BBS TCode: -Devil-
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-*   Hitler Was A Christian    *-*   (1:221/1503)
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|From: Domino
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Black lipstick
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:22:32
EID:0b2d 222da2c0
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2dae11a0
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d95e77
PID: timEd-B11
Gwenny, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

D> We had a student expelled because he used the word "fuck" in front of
a
D> teacher. His exact words were "fucking bathroom"; it wasn't even used
as an
D> insult to anyone.
GTP> Entirely too many people allow their buttons to be pushed by
GTP> words.  "Fuck" is only a word.  Just like "piss" which used
GTP> to be socially acceptable.  All the teachers do is reinforce
GTP> the idea that it is okay to over react to something someone
GTP> says.  It's not much of a leap to stabbing someone for a
GTP> word. SSSHEESH! 

Everywhere I go, I notice people who overreact to words. I was on a local
chat board the other day, and some guy didnt like something I had said,
and called me a moron. Pointing out to him that I said it that way on
purpose, I called him a moron. He then told me that at the next GT (or
GTG or whatever you call them) he was going to beat me up. 

It's teachers, parents, the media, etc. Society in general.

Kinda like a debate rules thing that's posted in Thump_It! from time
to time (donno if they post it in here or not).. One of the rules was
to psychoanalyze your opponents words. "Blah used the word 'zuccini in 
his/her post, therefore s/he has a case of penis envy."

D> Of course, they were looking for a reason to expel him anyway;
D> he had already taken the Memphis police force and the tv police 
D> drama show Top Cops on a high-speed chase in a stolen Mustang. 
D> He was like 15 at the time. (And, actually, he comes from a 
D> white upper-middle-class family, so noone can apply a 
D> stereotype.)
GTP> Actually, there are applicable stereo-types.   It's just
GTP> the kind that get swept under the carpet to protect the
GTP> family's rep. 

Well, there's always stereotypes, just most people I've ever spoken
indepth to about the subject make comments that boiled down to:
Everyone who commits a crime comes from a broken home or bad environment.


Abreq ad Hƒbra

Domino


---
* Origin: Clockwork BBS, Covington TN, (901)475-1195 (1:123/531)
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|From: Domino
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Black lipstick
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:29:30
EID:0b2d 222da3a0
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2dae11a1
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d95efc
PID: timEd-B11
Gwenny, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

GTP> Bruce wears all black most of the time, but what are they
GTP> going to do about it. He's the first string heavy weight
GTP> wrestler, ranked fourth in the state last year.    Last
GTP> year the fundy athletics tried to get him to join their
GTP> group. (They used food to entice him. . .a fancy breakfast
GTP> once a week.)  After politely refusing their advances for a
GTP> month or so, he started wearing the biggest pentagram he

A couple students from a local Baptist church tried to get me to attend
services, until I went public about my Paganism. They dont bother me
anymore.

GTP> could find to school.  They haven't bothered him since. One
GTP> teacher did give Suzanne (aka Starfire) some grief about her
GTP> pentacle, but he is gone (he was a stupid teacher--thought
GTP> Pompei was a volcano) to teach at a xtian school.  And I've
GTP> made it clear that the next teacher who messes with her
GTP> because of it will face a lawsuit.

None of the teachers here say anything to me about any of my appearance
or behaviour. I kinda have a reputation for being a wierdo at my school.

FR>> Bizarre behavior, really...  tossing someone out of school due 
FR>> to the color of her lipstick.  As if the public education
FR>> system wasn't already a mess.
D> Imagine what would have happened if it wasnt lipstick -- if she had a
D> birthmark or whatever on her lips alone, making them look black? Think
D> they'd kick her out then?
GTP> They'd put her in a handicapped program or something.

Which would just as stupid as kicking her out, if not more stupid.

GTP> ... Is there life after deja you?

That's bad. ;)

Abreq ad Hƒbra

Domino


---
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|From: Domino
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  The Alignment List    01/
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:35:35
EID:8748 222da460
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2dae11a2
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d95f6c
PID: timEd-B11
Gwenny, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

GtP>> Welcome, Domino.  Good to have you here.  Most of the
GtP>> atheists are pretty cool, with a few exception like David
GtP>> Worrell.  He's decided that us "goofy" pagans a "nice,
GtP>> pathetic" targets because we fight back.  
D> Hm. David hasnt presented that image as of yet in Thump_It! (Memphis
local
D> religdebate).. I'll have to watch him. 
GTP> Ah, he's just trolling.  Don't take anything I say about
GTP> Tennessee to heart.  

Hey, I wasnt born here, and I dont claim it. 

Abreq ad Hƒbra

Domino


---
* Origin: Clockwork BBS, Covington TN, (901)475-1195 (1:123/531)
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|From: Domino
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Pray Contest
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:36:24
EID:c3b8 222da480
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2dae11a3
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d95f72
PID: timEd-B11
Gwenny, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

CP>> How is that possable? Either you belive in God or you don't!
DW>> Ah! You meant "... are you an atheist or a theist?"
DW>> The answer is still neither, though.
D> Could the answer be.. Agnostic?
GTP> TROLL.

What's this? David's a troll? ;)

GTP> Honestly, you'll find that many of us won't commit to a
GTP> belief system.  It keeps it more simple.  If no one knows
GTP> what you believe, no one can tease you about it. 

Must make it really easy to win debates. 

Abreq ad Hƒbra

Domino


---
* Origin: Clockwork BBS, Covington TN, (901)475-1195 (1:123/531)
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|From: Domino
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Thanks
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:37:12
EID:90b8 222da4a0
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2dae11a4
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d95f79
PID: timEd-B11
Gwenny, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

GtP>>   Now David.  About this obsession with
GtP>> Twinkies.  Could this be in some way associated with deep
GtP>> feelings of inadequacy about your genitals. When you suck
GtP>> out the creamy insides, is it more fulfilling than say, oh,
GtP>> sex with a female?
D> Snort.. Snicker.. As far as I've seen, he has yet to comment in Thump_it!
D> about when I let good 'ol Trent (resident fundy) in on my little secret:
D> I'm bi and it wasn't a choice.. Trent has this affinity for ignoring
first
D> hand facts.. (He's claimed a multitude of times that bi/homosexuality
is a
D> choice.. Odd.. Wasn't a choice for me..)
GTP> Oh, I don't think he's bi.  I'm just flaming him, accusing
GTP> him of not getting any sex.  

I was keeping along with the joke. 

(and making use of a convenient moment to make my stance clear to whoever
reads me)

GTP> "Bother!" said Pooh as his batteries died just moments before
GTP> climax. 

Stolen! Stolen stolen stolen!

Abreq ad Hƒbra

Domino


---
* Origin: Clockwork BBS, Covington TN, (901)475-1195 (1:123/531)
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|From: Domino
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Christ-Like / Contradictions / Species behavior
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:43:00
EID:f405 222da560
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2dae11a6
PID: timEd-B11
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 060c7fe4
Fredric, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

dom> Have you ever thought that maybe it's not a Deity
dom> that's allowing anything, that we're allowing everything?
FR> A species -- every species, not just humans -- allow ethics
FR> and modes of behavior which are expedient at the time. 
FR> Morality _is_ that which a society can afford at the time. 
FR> We -- all of us -- allow humans to starve to death because
FR> we don't, by and large, care.  We are genetically ingrained
FR> with the desire to assist those of us who share the same
FR> phenotypes as us yet that same genetic predisposition
FR> predisposes us to ignore the needs of those which don't. 

Why didnt you just say, "I agree" ?

dom> I'm not a Christian, but the Bible *does* say we have free will.
FR> And contradicts that claim repeatedly.

References, please. Don't give me threats of damnation. A threat does
not nullify free will. You can still choose to go against the threat
and suffer the consequences. 

FR> The scientific fact, however, is that all species have "free
FR> will" but that their behavior is tailored by their genes and
FR> environment -- not to mention the political and socio-economic 
FR> constraints of their day.

And even then, if the individual is aware enough of his environment, he
can choose to go against that tailoring.

Abreq ad Hƒbra

Domino


---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Domino
|Sub:  Christ-Like
|Date: 14 Jan 97  00:34:01
EID:073a 222e0440
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dad4a1
REPLY: 1:123/531.0 2da56fa0
PID: GED3 2.5
13 Jan 97 10:37, Domino wrote to David Worrell:

D>> Actually, it never says you *can't*. It says what will happen if
D>> you *do*. You still have free will.
DW>> Ever hear of the word "extortion?"

D> Threats are still not definites. Yeah, the warnings of damnation and
D> such could be called threats; but you dont *have* to go with a threat.
D> You still have free will.

I walk up to you in an alley, pull a gun, and say "your money or your life."
You would have no problem with this?

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Bill Wolff
|Sub:  Rice only believes that Wolff is a fundy liar
|Date: 14 Jan 97  00:37:16
EID:b900 222e04a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dad57d
REPLY: 1:115/769.2 fa0098e9
PID: GED3 2.5
11 Jan 97 10:17, Bill Wolff wrote to David Rice:

BW> I believe the latest findings show that this tree is now incorrect.
BW> Thus we must go back to the drawing board and rewrite evolution but
BW> once again.

Which findings, Billy?

BW> I hope you have Internet WEB access. As I would like for you to
BW> check out www.artbell.com WEB site. He has three pictures of skulls



God, you're a moron.

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Black lipstick
|Date: 14 Jan 97  00:54:25
EID:00ad 222e06c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dad96b
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d95e77
PID: GED3 2.5
11 Jan 97 06:24, Gwenny The Pooh wrote to Domino:

D>> We had a student expelled because he used the word "fuck" in front
D>> of a teacher. His exact words were "fucking bathroom"; it wasn't
D>> even used as an insult to anyone.

GP> Entirely too many people allow their buttons to be pushed by words.



---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:21:36
EID:a363 222e0aa0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae00f
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 060c7fe3
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 12:35, Fredric Rice wrote to Marilyn Burge:

DW>> Bullshit again. I simply pointed out that your daughter was
DW>> overweight. Your reaction, your husband's reaction, and
DW>> Marilyn's reaction showed just how truly *uncomfortable* with
DW>> your respective weights all of you are.

mb>> Gwen, this is an out-and-out lie, and the lying sack of shit knows
mb>> it. I TOLD HIM the reason I spoke up: it was because he was
mb>> ragging on the two of you about something you could do nothing
mb>> about.

FR> Do you honestly believe that people have no control over their own
FR> weight?! Or that parents have no control over an offspring's weight?

It does seem that way, doesn't it? I must say that Marilyn's responses have
surprised me.

FR> I don't want to jump into this idiotic, fuckingly stupid argument;

Fuck you very much, too. :)

FR> I
FR> just read your comment above and had to wonder if you actually
FR> believe
FR> this else typed something in badly.

You did see the "evil" quote, didn't you?

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  The Alignment List    01/
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:24:17
EID:a84a 222e0b00
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae077
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1a8c6d60
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 12:36, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Brian Shreve:

BS> KW>> J.J. Hitt

BS>> He "married" a former best friend of mine. JJ's got class, but I'd
BS>> bet no one here who hasn't met him could pick em out of a group of
BS>> 3, or 5 or 10 people.  JJ's got a drive mankind doesn't see too
BS>> often.  I hold alot of respect and admiration for this guy. A
BS>> friendship is not in the horizon, but I like what he is about, and
BS>> his compassion for learning.

KW>   I don't think that this is the same person as our JJ.  I
KW> don't think that our JJ is married--in quotes or otherwise.

I seem to remember that JJ has officiated, as a ULC minister, at at least
one marriage.

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  truth
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:31:38
EID:5b7e 222e0be0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae227
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73980bc9
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 15:04, J.J. Hitt wrote to David Worrell:

DW>> You mean like that goofy shit about raven banners?

JH>  Watch out! He's from a "warrior tradition".

Really? What does he do, fall on people?

JH>  Just like Walter Bartoo is.

That explains quite a lot.

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:32:39
EID:f4c6 222e0c00
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae25c
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73980f5c
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 15:06, J.J. Hitt wrote to David Worrell:

DW>> Becke mentioned Sean's feelings for you. Suddenly you think
DW>> it is a good idea for everyone to shut the fuck up. Sean
DW>> has a "death in the family/HD problem that only affects
DW>> Holysmoke" at the same time.

JH>  Did you ever get a reply to this one?

If you can call it that. More song and dance would be a better description,
though.

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Starfire
|Sub:  Dander raising
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:34:30
EID:8e10 222e0c40
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae2d7
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d90af5
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 15:58, Starfire wrote to David Worrell:

S>>> It is hypocrisy to give you back what you've given.

DW>> If you try to blast someone for being "rude," then act try to be
DW>> rude yourself, yes that is hypocrisy.

S> Oh, but she didn't mean it, wasn't that your excuse?

What excuse? I meant every word. You do need to lay off the Twinkies for
a while.

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Tiger Eyes
|Sub:  Look Who is Insulted?
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:35:23
EID:02cb 222e0c60
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae386
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d91d88
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 17:03, Tiger Eyes wrote to David Worrell:

TE>>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nation.

DW>> Would that be the voice that says, "Hey! You bastards stole all
DW>> our shit, forced us to live on this shitty reservations, and sell
DW>> us cheap bourbon!" or is it the voice that says, "Hey! Don't kill
DW>> that cow! That might be dear, departed Cousin Vishrut! I don't
DW>> care how hungry you are!"

TE> It would be the voice that says, " You have killed my people for our
TE> lands,

"Because we were too pathetic to defend our lands.."

TE> destorying our homes,

"Ibid..."

TE> given us disease,

And you say the white man never gave you anything...

TE> put us on reservations
TE> to imprison us

Drunks need to be locked up.

TE> and tear our pride away,

Pride? In *what*? Have you ever lived in a teepee?

TE> and raped the earth of her possesions and gifts.

Raped? Got any evidence that the earth is an entity that can be raped? You
might as well talk about raping lawn furniture.

TE> This is how you show us kindness, you people
TE> with no love in your hearts."

We got all your shit. Whatcha gonna do about it?

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Tiger Eyes
|Sub:  Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:38:25
EID:bdad 222e0cc0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae4fe
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d92877
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 17:21, Tiger Eyes wrote to David Worrell:

DW>> Hmmm... I guess I'll have to go with the "or something," since
DW>> getting laid seems to have no effect. Could you be more specific?

TE> Yeah, I can.  Why don't you get a hobby,

Got one.

TE> job,

Got one of those, too.

TE> or a girlfriend?

And one of those. Still no effect.

DW>> CPS seemed to have a different opinion, didn't they?

TE> Oh, and I am sure that if CPS came to your house RIGHT now that they
TE> would find it spotless.

Indeed they would.

TE>>> And your mother didn't??? Isn't David an olde bible name.

DW>> David is an old name. It is not an "olde sounding name." I'm sure
DW>> the difference will escape your grasp.

TE> David is an "olde sounding name", people recognize it from being from
TE> the Bible, you damn moron.

The name "David" is nothing like "olde sounding names" like "Wild Hunter,"
"Lady Solthar," or any of that other goofy pagan shit.

TE>>> Are you mad, because Richard Simmons wouldn't help you with your
TE>>> weight problem?

DW>> I really don't know, considering I never asked him to help.

TE> Maybe you should.

Why? I am comfortable with my weight.

TE>>> Admit it, your overweight too and need to take your
TE>>> anger out on other people.

DW>> I've never denied being overweight. Unlike you, however, I don't
DW>> get all bent out of shape about it.

TE> I am not bent out of shape about people being overweight.  I get
TE> pissed off by people, like you, that make rude comments about people's
TE> weight.

Why do you feel that way?

TE> You didn't have to say anything about my sister's weight,

You don't have to whine with every post, yet you do.

TE> You know it is assholes, like you, that cause so many people to
TE> starve theirselves to death and commit suicide.

Nope. They starve themselves and commit suicide because they're pathetic
little weaklings who define themselves by what others think of them.

DW>> Was the above your first clue, or did you get the information from
DW>> your Tarot deck?

TE> What makes you think I'm pagan or that I have a Tarot deck.

The lack of mastery of English, for one.

DW>> That's a good thing - otherwise it would just break your heart
DW>> when I turned you down.

TE> You are so sure of yourself, aren't you.

Indeed I am.

TE>>> Fuck you
DW>> You exceed the maximum allowable weight limit. No thanks.
TE> Honey, you don't know my weight?

I can make educated guesses, though.

TE>  You're jumping to conclusions,
TE> again.

Am I really?

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Bruce Todd
|Sub:  Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:44:23
EID:e8de 222e0d80
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae71d
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d92fe5
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 18:08, Bruce Todd wrote to David Worrell:

DW>>>>>> What do you spend the excess on, Twinkies for your daughter?

BT> You are refering to my sister.

No fucking shit? I'm amazed at your grasp of the obvious. Are *you* the
football playing Toddlet?

TE>>> You know a lot about Twinkies, don't you Mr. Worrell.

DW>> Yep. I know they are the prime cause of 230 pound 13 year olds.

BT> Well, considering she's as tall as you and you say you weight 230
BT> pounds, I guess that give you alot of room to talk doesn't it! 

I've never denied that, either, turf boy.

DW>> I really don't know, considering I never asked him to help.

BT> He probably ran away in fear of you, Mister Stay Puff!!!

Ah, yes. Even more hypocrisy from the goofy paganoid camp.

BT> Ohhh, and I'm 6'2", 240 and in great shape,

Only if you consider "round" to be a great shape. I personally prefer dodecahedrons,
though.

DW>> Was the above your first clue, or did you get the information from
DW>> your Tarot deck?

BT> More criticizing,

Your grasp of the obvious continues to astound me.

BT> hmmm...I thought atheists were more open minded and didn't shun other
BT> people for their religious beliefs.

Atheists do pretty much as they please. Making judgments of atheists as
a whole would is a mistake - the only thing many of us have in common is
that we lack belief in gods.

DW>>>> I don't like blondes very much. I prefer 100 pound brunettes,
DW>>>> actually. Eighty-five pounds brunettes are really sexy - I just
DW>>>> love that malnourished Ethiopian look, and they rarely order the
DW>>>> lobster dinner at restaurants.

BT> Ohhh... So your one of those guy who treats his wife like a slave and
BT> yells and her when she actually eats something.  And really 100 pound
BT> or 85 pipe dreams or are you the child molesting type.

What was that you were saying about jumping to conclusions?

I'm sorry to hear about your missing sarcasm gene, though.

TE>>> Fuck you,

DW>> You exceed the maximum allowable weight limit. No thanks.

BT> You don't know how much she weights

She fails to meet the IQ requirement, then. Still no luck.

BT> And the crack about the maximum load more than likly has two edges,
BT> since no women under 200 pounds would fuck an out of shape bastard
BT> like yourself.

Indeed? Damn - must be more of those female impersonators, then.

BT>             And please don't trip over your ego on the way to the
BT> bathroom.

There's not much danger of that - I keep my ego in Alaska. It's the only
state big enough to hold it.

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Tiger Eyes
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:53:28
EID:f34a 222e0ea0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae799
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d933f5
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 18:41, Tiger Eyes wrote to David Worrell:

TE>>> I believe the Indians were the smarter of the two.

DW>> Ahhh... I see. That's why we were able to take all their shit,
DW>> from them.

TE> Well,... when a warfaring, earth raping, gold grubbing,
TE> gonorrhea-syphilis infected race comes to a land of friendly
TE> down-to-earth people, that sort of happens.

Yep. "Warfaring, earth raping (must one dig a hole first?), gold grubbing,
gonorrhea-syphilis" beats "earth honoring, matriarchal, life affirming"
each and every damn time. Makes me happy I'm in the first group. I get more
shit that way, and get to laugh at those of you in the latter group.

TE>>> ... JJ needs to be Hitt.

Advocating violence? How very Native American of you.

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  December 25
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:55:32
EID:f95a 222e0ee0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae7b8
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d8acaf
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 08:54, Gwenny the Pooh wrote to David Worrell:

DW>> Odd that all this happened just as a) he was getting yet another
DW>> new asshole torn, and b) he was treading dangerously close to
DW>> revealing some of your "secrets."

GP> David, Sean comes and goes.

Keep on dancing, ok?

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 14 Jan 97  01:56:14
EID:e2c3 222e0f00
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae902
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d8afba
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 09:19, Gwenny the Pooh wrote to David Worrell:

DW>> I think you know exactly why. It won't do any good, though, if *I*
DW>> mention it. You'll just go into your patented Gwenny-denying-reality
DW>> routine again.

GP> Mention it.  I don't think you have a reason. 

I see your reading comprehension skills are still not up to par.

DW>> You must acknowledge the problem yourself before you can get help
DW>> for it.

GP> Right you are.  Seems like I've said that before.

Can't take your own advice? That's a common problem.

GP> I haven't noticed you ragging on anyone else, INCLUDING Styx,

Styx doesn't believe in sentient cabbages, either.

GP>>> BTW, ask Wild, if you doubt it.

DW>> 

GP> Yes, very fundy-like.  When offered evidence

That's not evidence, Gwen. It's hearsay.

DW>> Of someone who thinks cabbages are aware of their surroundings?
DW>> Hardly.

GP> So, your stand is that plants are not able to interact with their
GP> environment and that they do not react to that environment.

Nope. That's not what I am saying at all. You made a wild-assed claim (that
a cabbage could recognize a cabbage killer) and were called on it. You have
since retreated to a more sensible claim, and are now trying to say that
it was your original claim. I think you've even got yourself convinced of
this. No one that saw your original post, though, is convinced by it.

GP> Have it your way.  The experiments I have seen indicate otherwise,

What experiments have you seen? Be specific.

GP> I wonder what YOU have to hide, David.

All sorts of things, just like everyone else.

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  GET SPECIFIC
|Date: 14 Jan 97  02:06:04
EID:1728 222e10c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32daea2a
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d8b0fd
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 09:33, Gwenny the Pooh wrote to David Worrell:

GT>>>>> My point precisely.    Those who attempt to convince or to
GT>>>>> teach BY THE EXAMPLE OF THEIR OWN LIVES
DW>>>> You mean like those that commit emotional abuse?
GP>>> David's going fundy, David's going fundy.  Only half a quote, not
GP>>> the half that tells us what we need to understand what's going on

DW>> I neither know nor care what Glen was babbling about. I quoted
DW>> what was relevant to the point that I was making.

GP> the rest of the sentence was

Which part of the above two sentences from me did you fail to understand,
Gwen?

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
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PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: David Worrell
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  Dander raising
|Date: 14 Jan 97  02:02:23
EID:6259 222e1040
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dae974
REPLY: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32d8b1a8
PID: GED3 2.5
12 Jan 97 09:38, Gwenny the Pooh wrote to David Worrell:

GP>>> I didn't know you had a job.  I thought you just laid around at
GP>>> home whining about how women hate you and eating Twinkies.

DW>> First you confuse me with Quentin, now you confuse me with Sean.
DW>> Have you lost your scorecard?

GP> I could I confuse you with anyone.

Is that so?

DW>> You mean the "innie/outie" bit? I mastered that long ago.

GP> You determine sex by belly buttons?

Of course. Doesn't everyone else?

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
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PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  bilge
|Date: 12 Jan 97  16:34:09
EID:6ec6 222c8440
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 16331bc1
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1caf9922
On 10 Jan 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

JB> since in nonstandard analysis a number is uniquely represented
JB> by one and only one point,

RC> What utter bilge. Anyone who takes your above nonsense at face value
RC> is going to be misled about the nature of nonstandard analysis.


JB> "zero" is neither an infinitesimal nor a "number."

RC> ROFL! In nonstandard analysis, zero is most assuredly an infinitesimal
RC> number, John.

RC> Why are you spreading this bullshit?

I was told the above by another, whose opinion I respected.  If it's 
wrong, I would appreciate a reference to a correcting text on 
nonstandard analysis.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Black holes are where God divided by zero.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  Quote
|Date: 13 Jan 97  11:39:27
EID:97b2 222d5ce0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e95a0d94
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 fb3f48ef
On 08 Jan 97, Marilyn Burge wrote:

MB>  mouth shut all those weeks that he had been harassing
MB>  Brawley.

MB> I then told him that the reason for my silence in the Brawley case
MB> was much more direct than he could imagine: I virtually never read
MB> his posts, and absolutely never read Brawleys. I make no apologies

(*grin*)  Then I guess you won't read this one?

Categorical non-reading's a sort of an insult in and of itself, eh?

MB> in this echo anyway, after several years of posting here. It seems
MB> to me that David's track record of making sport out of seeing
MB> people squirm ought to speak for itself, with no defense regarding
MB> my reaction being necessary. David is a cruel child who really
MB> ought to give some consideration to developing a bit of compassion
MB> in his apparently limited repertoire of emotions.


Hear, hear.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Creative balderdash can be interesting for its own sake...

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Dark Bible #4                                            [1]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  11:41:24
EID:031c 222d5d20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 56cda023
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d44ecd
On 08 Jan 97, Al Schroeder wrote:

JB> that the 'Quantum God' will be _able_ to do them....

AS>  Right, I saw your thing with Roger. I especially liked the bit about
AS> how  QG could compute all possible futures to the limits of
AS> uncertainty, but  that still leaves a small leeway for US to choose,
AS> and that the farther  our actions are from the present, the more
AS> uncertain it is.

You understand well.  


JB> other....  In the sense of physics, WE are "low level quantum
JB> parasites  feeding off the larger quantum nonlocal God." (*chuckle*)

AS>  Right. And there might be others, that we cannot immediately
AS> perceive...

Indeed.  However, focussing on the "Primary" is my intent.  It seems to

me that subsidiaries, being dependent on the Primary, will affect 
outcomes less than the Primary.  (Except physical subidiaries, of 
course, whose laws-of-physics operations 'swamp' the Primary's effects 
as easily as the subsidiaries.


AS> Question. In your theory, do you feel that, for
AS> instance,  the course of evolution might have been (subtly!)
AS> influenced by your

JB> (?!!)  (*ROFL*)  Of _course_, Al!  That's central to how this
JB> hypothesis impacts the religion/evolution discussion.  That is HOW God
JB> would have had His "hand in evolution"; HOW it is that creationism is
JB> wrong, super-materialistic evolution is wrong, and a fusion of the two
JB> is most probably right.

AS>  Subtly directed. I like it, I like it. It would still allow for
AS> outdated  organs to linger for awhile, like the appendix, or design
AS> flaws. QG would  have to work within physical framework and only move
AS> things slowly, but he  can move them...

Indeed.  I find, after these years of examining my own hypothesis, that

it remains consistent with logic, physics (from which ultimately 
evolution must descend), and metaphysics.  Unlike some "believers," it 
is not the actuality of the God that strikes me; it is the internal 
consistency of this "Hypothesis" that does.


AS>  Judeo-Christian stripe) where such a being MIGHT meddle, if it had
a

JB> Yes indeed.  Physics underlies all chemistry, hence quantum physics
JB> underlies biochemistry, hence, since nonlocality and the other oddball
JB> phenomena that undergird my own "quantum God" hypothesis are
JB> themselves  quite real in physics, the phenomena MUST apply to
JB> evolution, even  though you'll not find any evolutionary biologists
JB> using any quantum  mechanical reasoning in their work.

AS>  Until it can be verified, certainly...

(Until _what_ can be verified?  Evolution, or my hypothesis?)

As to evolutionary biologists not using QM, it's not just that it isn't

useful to them, it's also that computing even a simple two-particle 
interaction using QM is horrendously processor-intensive (takes hours or

days even on fast computers), and the time needed rises rapidly with the

addition of more particles.  It'd take _years_ to compute a single DNA 
molecule's chances of being modified by whatever-it-is that causes such

mutations.  (I note recently, in a book on the Calculus that I'm 
reading, that biologists hardly use any MATH at all, let _alone_ quantum

math....)

JB> reducing that same granite cliff to _sand_?  With the QG's style of
JB> "omnipotence" you get sand, you just don't get it _quickly_.

AS>  And an eternal Being, what is time to it?

Indeed, or to a perhaps eternal universe....
(My 'Tetrahedraverse' universe-origin scenario implies no "Gnab Gib" or

cyclic Bang-collapse-and-reBang.)
But: A "fundie" friend of mine tells me this story, which I get a huge 
kick out of:

"God, what is a million dollars to you?"
"A penny."
"God, what is a million years to you?"
"A second."
"God, will you give me a million dollars?"
"Sure!  Wait a second...."

(*chortle*)


JB> (provided, of course, that It exists at all) has been _brains_ --the
JB> brains of the Mystics at the roots of every religion.

AS>  Yes. And there is no evidence that any other animal has any religion
AS> that  we know of.

Yes, albeit there's some apocryphal evidence that wild chimpanzees 
engage in occasional solitary displays (no other chimps around), beating

up rocks and things, in _specific_places_.  (Implied: they go there TO 
do this displaying.)  Perhaps some minor aspect of the "religious 
impulse" actually is present in the "higher" primates short of man.  
(Which, again, would be consistent with my Hypothesis; if the range from

"not God=conscious at all" (frog, insect) _through_ medium God=conscious

(chimp, perhaps whale, dolphin, dog) to high God=conscious (man), is 
driven by God's evolution-using attempt to manufacture something capable

of detecting Him directly (brain, using consciousness to detect 
Consciousness), then it'd be consistent with the Hypothesis.)


JB> Maybe God doesn't so much say "Oh, _Yeah_???  We'll _see_..." as he
JB> does  "Ah.  Finally.  Now that you're safe to use there, go do that."
JB> (*grin*) Maybe he always takes us at our _word_.

AS>  That's an interesting idea....

JB> Thanks.  It came to me as I was writing.

AS>  Try this. Such a being would not need to lie (what gain could it ever
AS> get  by lying?) so it might, despite its intellect, have problems
AS>  comprehending, deep down, a lie. Even lying to oneself...

Agreed.  Perhaps it operates in such a high-speed (infinite) "real time"

mode, that when something changes (a man repents and decides to "be 
good" thereafter), the God acts as if the change is actual, real, and 
permanent, the God without memory of "before."

JB> recorded  history of repeatably testable physical phenomenology, at
JB> least) tells  us that if there's a God, His effects are _very_ subtle.
JB> Test for a  subtle effect with a subtle test.

AS>  You've presented it very well, John. Let me think on this. I'm trying

Thank you.  It's not the result of only a few moment's effort....




Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... The most difficult thing to open is a closed mind.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Dark Bible #4                                            [2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  12:07:24
EID:031c 222d60e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 259970bf
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d44ecd
On 08 Jan 97, Al Schroeder wrote:

>> CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS MESSAGE <<

AS>  for, say, a meteorite in the sky at such and such a time. All of them
AS>  equally ABLE to happen under your hypothesis, if requested, but not
AS>  specifically requested. Then come back and see which is fulfilled.
If
AS> done  repeatedly, and the requested event is what happened, and the
AS> other
AS>  didn't (or rarely did) it would be VERY significant, statistically.


I think so.  The experimenters need to understand the rationale' behind

the experiment, i think, to avoid "testing away" the effect via too 
_much_ empiricism.  --After all, the effect depends on the God a) being

able to detect the mentation of the experimental subject (which we treat

as a given) and b) agreeing that the test suggested is not inconsistent

with Its overall purpose and principles for Universe operation.  I do 
not see how _knowing_It_exists_ could possibly interfere with Its 
purposes (and actually, it makes more sense that It _does_ want us 
paying attention to It), but I do see how it becomes more "iffy" WRT Its

purposes, for us to beg It to arrange for stupid squirrels to 
_shoot_....(*grin*)


AS>  I'll try. Notice that I'm still sitting on the fence on this.

Oh, of course.  I have no illusions.  You may be more reasonable than 
some, WRT my 'Hypothesis,' but I have been talking to religious types 
far too long to think someone religious --and within a Christian 
paradigm, to boot-- is going to buy into it lock, stock, and barrel 
without at least as much soul-searching and information-processing as it

took ME to depart myself from AntiTheism....


AS> Obviously I  believe in a God, but I find the most interesting
AS> evidence in the
AS>  constants of the universe, which is outside the purview of QG. Even

Well, I would say they are _consistent_ with QG's original appearance 
--Its "coming to self-awareness."  The main difference is that QG arises

to Its own consciousness after the Universe's "absolute" underpinnings 
have begun to appear, while in most religions, the God _precedes_ the 
Universe: He "creates" it.  I suspect (but have not deeply thought 
about) that the mere appearance of quantum-nonlocal self-referentialism

--a necessary condition imho for a self-aware universe-- within the 
early, developing universe _may_ have had some formative and/or 
modifying effects on what we are now calling "constants of the 
Universe."


AS> if QG  were established, it would not necessarily be a final "God",
AS> anymore than  if Lovelock's "Gaia" hypothesis was determined as fact,
AS> that it would be  the same as the Greek goddess Gaia. But at least you

Uh... a subject for later discussion, perhaps.  If Tetrahedraverse, my 
own rigid-absolute accessory hypothesis (which does NOT use strict 
scientific data and is not used in the QG-Hypothesis at all) is 
"correct" also, there can be no more 'final' God than this one.
It would have to _be_ "all that is."  But that's far and away out there

in the ozone compared to looking for QG-coincidence, chaos-theory- 
arranged, quantum nonlocally-mediated statistically-testable effects.


AS> have proposed a test,  and as far as I follow what you're saying, you
AS> make no obvious errors (not  that I would expect any, mind you.) and
AS> use known phenomena...quantum
AS>  nonlocality...to establish a plausible mechanism for a Godlike being.
AS> Very  interesting.

Thank you.  Some have merely classed me amongst the long list of 
foredoomed-to-failure "believers" who have proposed "proofs of God," but

it is my feeling --and my studies add force to the feeling-- that I am 
proposing a NEW one, which makes use of actual-fact scientifically NEW 
information.  That is, the ancients who formulated 'tests fof God' did 
NOT have access to hardware experimetation results, some of which are 
not older than ten years.  (The Scully paper, for example, and the more

recent "quantum eraser" experiments, aren't even _five_ years old yet.)

Hence, my Hypothesis can't be classed precisely with any other before 
it, which does not use this modern, barely-dry _hardware_experimental_ 
information....  Mine is thus, imho, at the "cutting edge" of 
science/religion God-concept fusion metaphysics.

Thank you for your interest and kind words.  It's rare enough in this 
echo....  (*grin*)

Peace


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... And God said: E = «mvý - Zeý/r ...and there *WAS* light!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  12:28:20
EID:dd8e 222d6380
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 0c6dafaf
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 c33cc56f
On 09 Jan 97, Marilyn Burge wrote:

AS> inanimate, a la Brawley's meteorite? That would not normally


MB> No, I don't have a "better idea."  I am merely pointing out why
MB> such a study is totally impossible to conduct.  Will you believers
MB> NEVER give up on the idea that your worldview can be scienfically
MB> verified, and merely get on with your little faith practices and
MB> leave the rest of us alone?

I suggest that your comment's valid WRT any pre-existing religious 
worldview, but you presume to predict too much.

In the leastmost case, doing what you suggest is inherently illogical to

a believer.  An atheist/antitheist can take the position you do, because

he or she _lready_believes_ scientific verification is impossible.

However, beliefs, as you would be quick to point out, do not define 
reality.

IF it is possible to "fuse" a metaphysical/'religious' paradigm with the

scientific paradigm, then such _will_happen_.  It must, since IF the 
Thing being traditionally and 'mystically' perceived as a God or gods is

actually a property of the universe ("Mind of the Universe," say), then

scientific verification is inevitable (if perhaps quite far down the 
road).

It is as inevitable as scientifically demonstrating (and "explaining") 
human self-aware will-driven personal consciousness from First 
Principles of Physics, a thing we are probably just as far from doing.

(In science, it is not enough to say "well, obviously WE ARE conscious";

we shall have one day to explain HOW it works, all the way up from 
particle physics, in order that we fit it in with the rest of the 
fundamental-particle-driven phenomena we see around us.)

Your objection is not a reasoned or open-minded one, it's merely 
prejudicial.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... "There can be only One."   --Connor McLeod

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Occam
|Date: 13 Jan 97  12:51:49
EID:ad14 222d6660
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e696df34
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ce16da
On 04 Jan 97, Rod Swift wrote:

RS> On 30-09-96 at 23:29, ROBERT CURRY wrote to CURTIS JOHNSON:

RC>  MM> exist outside the mind - which led to philosophic skepticism,
RC>  MM> which in turn provided an intellectual preparation for the
RC>  MM> Reformation.

RC>  CJ> No doubt Ken Wiens would call him a logical positivist.

RC> ROFL!
RC> For this, you win a coupon book redeemable at:
RC> John Brawley's Nonlocal House of Cheese

RS> Do you get vouchers for pre-packaged and wrapped gift-whine?

Even without comment from me for _weeks_, you guys keep this up.
Y'all must be _really_ bored....


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... "You are trapped in that bright moment where you learned your doom."

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Brawley's Bait Shop
|Date: 13 Jan 97  12:53:00
EID:f3ec 222d66a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 ce0b3385
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32cf10c6
On 05 Jan 97, Rod Swift wrote:

RS> On 03-10-96 at 04:56, DAVID WORRELL wrote to SHELBY SHERMAN:

DW> I used to have some small amount of respect for John. Hell, we all knew
he
DW> was a fucking lunatic, but he was a *harmless* lunatic. He
DW> sat over in his little quantum corner and rarely bothered
DW> anybody (although I did, for a time, copy JJ's move of
DW> killing any message that included the word "quantum"). Now
DW> he's moved down the scale to "pathetic harmless lunatic."

RS> Given the above, wouldn't it be nifty to have a tagline like the
RS> one I've offered below?

Given the above, I'd say David's losing his grip....


RS> John Brawley's Quantum BSE-infected Butcher Shop :)

Define "BSE," please?


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Science/Religion: Dharmakh and Jhalahd at Tanagra.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Quote
|Date: 13 Jan 97  12:55:05
EID:b34f 222d66e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6ef02b01
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d59aaf
On 10 Jan 97, David Worrell wrote:

MB> If I must post the entire PRIVATE exchange

DW> Now you sound like Al.

DW> First Jesse, now Al. Who will you try to imitate next, Appleton?


It's always interesting to watch the anti-fundies attacking each other.
Indicates perhaps they're attacking the fundies for no better reason 
than entertainment.  Seems when there're no fundies around to attack, 
the wolves turn on each _other_.  Figures....


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... ICR: Institute of Claptrap Renormalization.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 13 Jan 97  12:57:44
EID:d66c 222d6720
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 c472f6d6
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d5989f
On 10 Jan 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:

DC> Doubt it all you want.  Provide evidence that I do not believe that
DC> that Tooth Fairy exists.  Have I ever stated that I don't think that
DC> the TF doesn't exist?

JB> Not that I recall.

DC> See, you had made an unfounded claim.  Very easy to do without
DC> evidence to support it.

(*grin*)


JB> Dan Ceppa, do you, or do you not, believe that the Tooth Fairy exists?

DC> But of course.  Way back when, the TF brought me money for my
DC> as well as my two sister's teeth.  Worked every time.  The
DC> amount was even adjusted for inflation.

Hmm... Misled, I see.  My mother brought money for me and _my_ two 
sisters' baby teeth.  I caught her at it.  *g*

JB> True, and I suspect that, you being a highly rational and evidence-
JB> liking individual, you do not have evidence acceptable to _you_, that
JB> the Tooth Fairy exists.  Your answer to my above question, please?

DC> I do of course.  In fact, I've taken over the role that the TF I
DC> used to have did.  And, as before, the amounts left are dutifully
DC> adjusted for the current exchange rate.

(*grin*)  Mysticism subject to inflation, eh?  Now, if we can only get 
the rest of the religions paying their proper TAXES....


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... "You are trapped in that bright moment where you learned your doom."

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  not believing
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:00:16
EID:2a6b 222d6800
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 4a35324d
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d63d5c
On 10 Jan 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:

-> On 08 Jan 97  10:21:19, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa

JB> Sure.  people are responsible for what they do, to themselves as well
JB> as  to others.  Morality and ethics can't be legislated.

DC> What they do to themselves is of no consequence.  It is their
DC> desision.  It is when those actions affect the rights of others
DC> that it becomes a problem for society as a whole.

Complex issue?  Someone does something _only_ to himself, that affects 
the rights of others?  How?  (Getting drunk doesn't qualify: the drunk 
then does something dewstructive to another's rights, but that's not the

drunk doing something to himself....


DC> You do realize, of course, that eating and breathing contributes
DC> to death?  Living does as well.

JB> So does thinking....  *g*

DC> However, it makes getting there a lot more enjoyable than being
DC> a casting extra without any speaking lines.

No shit!


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... This is a logic tagline.  <--- This is a lie.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Dander raising
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:02:13
EID:f145 222d6840
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 90a6ec1d
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d63afd
On 10 Jan 97, David Worrell wrote:

DW> 09 Jan 97 07:24, Marilyn Burge wrote to Al Schroeder:

MB> No, I think he is.  He's being excessively annoying, and, I've got
MB> an e-mail from him that admits he's doing to deliberately, just to
MB> see the Todds' reactions to his taunting.

DW> Then file the goddamned complaint, Marilyn, and stop whining about it.

DW> You're worse than Brawley.

Not possible.  I'm your worst mightmare --a Believer with scientific 
evidence to support his beliefs.



(Hey, leave my superior crackpot-index status alone!  I claim supremacy

in that area.)


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Al S.; Warring Christanic
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:04:36
EID:97ed 222d6880
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 14e7ff66
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d7101d
On 11 Jan 97, David Worrell wrote:

DW> 08 Jan 97 00:18, Ronald Vass wrote to David Worrell:

DW>  DW>> Coming from a pagan, that's awfully rich.

DW>  DW>> I think I need an insulin shot, in fact.

RV> You know of course, too much insulin, will put you in a
RV> comma. Shit ...... then you will go fundy on us.

DW> According to my latest targets, I've already gone fundy. :)


Nah.  Attacking one's own does not necessarily indicate collaboration 
with the enemy.

Besides, your writing ability suggests you'd be best stuck in a "comma"

(one of those short pauses between instances of balderdash).


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... WARNING!  Evolution may be hazardous to your Ego.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:07:37
EID:528c 222d68e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 332e257c
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1caf9923
On 10 Jan 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:


RC> It would appear that you are speaking of a number being "relatively
RC> infinite" in comparison to another (this is a concept that can be
RC> defined easily enough in the context of the archimedean property). In

Useful concept, yes.  Many openings for 'escape from dogma' exist in 
discussions of infinity, infinitesimality, and "zero."

RC> that case, EVERY other number is "relatively infinite" to zero. That

Obviously.

RC> does not change the infinitesimal nature of zero, however. If you stop
RC> to think about it, John, you will come to realize the inverse: that
RC> zero is "relatively infinitesimal" to every other number, and thus the
RC> "MOST" infinitesimal number that there is.

No, zero is not 'relatively' infinitesimal or MOST infinitesimal; it is

the _cancellation_ of the last-possible infinitesimal.  An 
'infinitesimal number' is that number Leibnitz thought about, which was

the smallest possible number which was NOT zero.  ("The smallest 
possible nonzero number.")  I agree with your reversal-of-argument, but

it is not an equal-type reversal.  (Just as "negative infinity," or the

concept of endlessly reducing, is not equivalent to the positive form of

infinity: the former closes down toward a _limit_, the latter HAS NO 
limit.)

RH> That's because there are no infinitesimal numbers.

RC> Good grief.

Well, what can I say?  That's what my current study book says was 
finally decided --that Leibnitz's disturbing insight had to be got rid 
of, for the calculus to develop further.  (_A_Tour_of_the_Calculus_, by

David Berlinski.)  I don't necessarily _agree_ with him, and his writing

style is so florid and oblique it's sometimes impenetrable --a unique 
situation with math books and me; usually it's the _math_ that's 
impenetrable to me, not the wordcraftsmanship....


JB> There are "inifintesimals" (each of which is a number on the number
JB> line) in nonstandard analysis.  There are no infinitesimal
JB> _numbers_ in the sense that there is no smallest-possible _amount_
JB> representable by a number, but with nonstandard analysis I
JB> understand that _each_ number (no matter how small, ad infinitum)
JB> maps to one and only one point.

RC> You understand this, do you? Would it be too much to ask just where
RC> you derived such a misunderstanding?

From discussion with supposedly knowledgeable people over in PHYSICS 
echo.  Sorry if I'm misled thereby.

RC>  JB>_Except_Zero_, which is the representation of LACK of an
JB> infinitesimal,

RC> Can you provide a reference for this, please? Or is it one of your
RC> many personal crackpot inventions which serve no practical use?

(*grin*)  Usefulness is determined by the application.  It's certainly 
'practically' useful to _me_; I couldn't have made my physical model of

an "Icosahedro(not)" without this tough battle over "zero," "nothing," 
the real meaning of "No Thing," and so forth....


JB> And in your counting objects example, with removal of the
JB> last one, thingness _totally_disappears_.

RC> Cardinality, however, remains just the same.

Fine with me.  Math often divorces itself from reality.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Science: Words and Music by God; arrangement by QM, for full Chorus
only.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  not believing
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:21:13
EID:e844 222d6aa0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 fcdc83d7
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32d7890e
On 11 Jan 97, Glen Todd wrote:

GT> Heilsa, John Brawley!

GT> While idly toying with a yellow silk scarf, Glen Todd overheard John
GT> Brawley whisper furtively to Dan Ceppa something about not believing:

JB> Sure.  people are responsible for what they do, to themselves as well
as
JB> to others.  Morality and ethics can't be legislated.

GT> In spite of what the fundies think.

Precisely.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Science[Matter] Philosophy[Mind] Religion[Spirit]

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Stuart Lumgair
|Sub:  'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:21:49
EID:1199 222d6aa0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 883aa7ea
REPLY: 1:153/556.0 2d6c3832
On 10 Jan 97, Stuart Lumgair wrote:

SL> Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to John Brawley:

RH> No, John, it IS a number. All the digits from 0 to 9 are numbers.

JB> I think that's just "procedurally" or "in terms of standard math"

DC> John, the concept is there.  You could be doing the math in
DC> base  2 or in hex, the concept of numbers requires a zero to
DC> make any  and all of them to work.

SL>    As I recall from my math courses, a long time ago, zero
SL> is not included in one of the number sets. I don't even
SL> recall all the number sets. Real, whole, integer, etc..
SL> From a certain viewpoint, saying that zero is a number
SL> equates with saying that atheism is a belief. Zero is a
SL> lack of any numbers.

(*grin*)  Joining the metamathematical/philosophical fray?
Welcome.  (You're on my side.)


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Faith is not an excuse for ignorance.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: John Brawley
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  dark bible #4                                            [1]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:22:36
EID:5269 222d6ac0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 2aa2b171
REPLY: 1:261/1137 2615abe4
On 06 Jan 97, Curtis Johnson wrote:

JB> placement involved.  In my personal experience (say, a total of 200
or
JB> 250 hours of eye-on-dark-sky watching), the number of meteors I see
per
JB> hour is WAY below what you note below.  Most nights, I'm lucky to see
JB> _one_.

CJ>         Should we then conclude that there is a Quantum God, but
CJ>  that it didn't want you to see meteors?

(*chuckle*)  No, meteor-watching is just not very personally 
quantifiable.  I'm VERY SLIGHTLY nearsighted.  I might miss seeing some

of the really faint ones.


JB> Hypothesis (and the experience) is the timing and placement.  One needs
JB> not only ask how many meteors are average, but also how many meteors
JB> should be expected from _demanding_them_at_a_specific_ time, say, within
JB> a five-minute window, and further, one would have to ask what the
JB> probability is for repeating this a few times.

CJ>         Agreed.  Which is why one should first check out what the
CJ>  background (aka "sporadic") rate is first, then check dates of
CJ>  meteor showers--in the case of your date, the Ursids.

I agree.  I did not claim perfect experimental rigidity for this event,

only that the event _did_occur_ as described.


CJ>         BTW, in 1999 there should be quite a show from (IIRC) the
CJ>  Leonids, which tend to recur every 33 years.  Unfortunately, it'll
CJ>  probably play into the hand of the millenialists.

That's good news.  (Not the millennialists' overzealous minor 
insanities; the meteor shower's hopefully unusual density.)


JB> However, I'll stand on my claim that this is an Hypothesis and an
JB> "event-testing" system that is NOT derived from religious history;
JB> rather, the Hypothesis (and hence the post on "tests for God") is
JB> derived from strictly hardware scientific experimentation in quantum
JB> phenomenology, and makes the above types of _predictions_.  (That is,
JB> given a) the "God," b) the "God's" ability to detect human mentation
JB> (hence "make appointments"), c) the "God's" willingness to, say, divert
JB> meteors slightly, and d) the quantum facts of chaos-theory adjustability
JB> and quantum probabilistic meddlings, the statistics of such "coincidence
JB> testing" _should_ show a definite deviation from the expected
JB> probabilistic "norm."  Eh?

CJ>         Given the premises a), b), c), and d), offhand I see no
CJ>  reason to argue your conclusion.  There is, howver, 4 premises
CJ>  which do not necessarily apply--and in fact, at least the first 3
CJ>  are supposedly what were being proved (IOW, circular reasoning).

Hmmm... I don't think it's circular, when couched in the form of an 
hypothesis.  That is, when one creates an hypothesis, one assumes that 
the effect hypothesized is there to be looked for.   It is hypothesis- 
_testing_ that, if the conclusion were maintained in the face of the 
lack of evidence that the premise or premises were correct, that would 
name the researcher a victim of circular reasoning.  (I think)

IOW, testing the hypothesis, and getting zero deviation from chance 
(given the known background), would negatively impact the "premises," 
which is what the test is about in the first place.

The first 3 are interrelated, necessary assumptions to be tested, and 
the fourth is a matter of fact.  IOW, I don't have a "conclusion," I 
have a phenomenological prediction that needs to be tested.


CJ>  CJ>>         Assmuming that all this stuff happening to you while
CJ>  CJ>>  walking tobacco road is as statistically meaningful as you
CJ> state,

JB> I consider it so.

CJ>         I note that you have not even bothered to state what these
CJ>  "interferences" are.  Presumably a red light would classify as an
CJ>  intereference.

It would.  I am used to noting "coincidences" in my life, having learned

earlier that they have a peculiar consistency when tracked over time.

Since I've lived here over ten years, I have a general impression of 
what events are "normal" or "matters of chance," and I note departures 
from these.  IOW, I have a "baseline," but it is not rigidly recorded; 
it's a matter of memory and habitual motion through my area.

JB> apply the tests as well, and add to the statistical database.  _I_ can't
JB> be trusted to have "proved" anything with these examples....

CJ>         For starters, you'll have to categorize what "interference"
CJ>  consists of beforehand.  Red light?  Someone asking for spare

Sure.  Almost anything can be an "interference" if it trends against my

success in buying cigarettes.  For example: the number of times the 
store is out of my brand as compared to the number of times it isn't, or

the number of times the clerk fumbles the pack and drops it on the floor

as opposed to the 'background' where he didn't (before I decided to 
quit), and so forth.  _Anything_ which is a) seemingly random, and b) 
could have been caused by a quantum-adjustable glitch in either 
insensate matter or the far more rapidly-processing brain of some person

or animal, and which is contrary to "chance" by some perhaps small 
amount, is a usable datum --one instance in a memory-held collection of

such data.  Over time, one develops an impression of the general trends

involved in various types of morivational exercises.

BUT: it is critical for such an examination --even a cursory, imprecise

one-- that a person begin to develop the habit of _looking_for_ and 
paying attention to, _coincidences_.  One must become more aware of what

goes on in one's visual/aural/personal space to such an extent that one

develops the ability to recall what one was _thinking_ at the moment of

coincidence, for, if there's "meaning" between thought and the external

world's coincidence-component, one has to collect data over a relatively

long time.  (I can't take that one improbable meteor event as evidence,

but I could, if it repeated enough times.  In the 'usual' world 
(cigarettes), there are many occasions for repeating-coincidence data to

be collected and mentally collated.)


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... And God said: E = «mvý - Zeý/r ...and there *WAS* light!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  dark bible #4                                            [2]
|Date: 13 Jan 97  13:43:56
EID:5269 222d6d60
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d1d279f5
REPLY: 1:261/1137 2615abe4
On 06 Jan 97, Curtis Johnson wrote:

CJ>  CJ>>  smoking.  Perhaps the power operating to hinder your tobacco
CJ>  CJ>>  purchase is yours, but you are unconscious of it?

JB> I don't control, for example, the number of times the dang _traffic_
JB> keeps me from turning left toward the Quik Shop (where I always buy
JB> them) when I'm going TO BUY cigarettes, as compared to the number of
JB> times the traffic isn't so *&#%%$@ heavy when I'm NOT going to buy
JB> them....  And I do not have a regularity about my buying times; it's
JB> scrambled.  Now, if you're suggesting that _I_ am clairvoyantly
JB> perceiving remote traffic patterns and choosing the worst times to go
to
JB> the Quik Shop... ...well, that strikes me as as loony as my Quantum
JB> Theology and "test for God" seems to strike other people...  (*grin*)

CJ>         You have not given a philosophical means to distinguish
CJ>  between the two!

(*grin*)  Nor is it necessary.  The two effects may be part of exactly 
the same phenomenon --especially if there's an intelligence not my own 
involved, capable of "instant" (super-high-speed) quantum-event 
computation over time.  If the "God" is trying to get something "done" 
through the obstinacy of insensate matter and/or the obstinacy of human

ego/will, the "pressure" would likely be constant, hence the "general 
trend" would be visible.  (That's part of the reason I think the 
"coincidence test for God" would work: the "trend" should be unceasing 
so long as the event being tested for is not "achieved" by that supposed

God.)

But to your objection specifically: I do not logically think that, being

a subsidiary consciousness in a world with 5.5x10^9 others, MY own 
consciousness is capable of nonlocally "ordering" the world to suit my 
"guilt" about smoking, but a consciousness which was equally distributed

amongst all 5.5x10^9 others AND distributed throughout Universe as well,

should more thinkably be so capable.


CJ>         And just like you did not establish what meteor frequencies
CJ>  are beforehand, you have not establish traffic frequencies

I _know_ the traffic frequencies.  I _live_ here.  (Trust me: I'm very 
familiar with the traffic patterns and their times and dates.  For 
_example_, I can tell you that trying to get out of my road by the usual

route, in Summer after April, after about 8:30 in the evening, is a 
stupid move.  --Six Flags is beginning to dump its customers about then,

and the hope of turning left in less than ten minutes of waiting is 
minimal.  *grin*)

CJ>  beforehand.  There certainly is a psychological effect to rule out
CJ>  beforehand--namely, increased impatience toward nicotine
CJ>  gratification.
CJ>         A smoker myself, I know how this can go.

(*grin*)  Then, you might be a perfect experimental subject: try to 
quit, and NOTE the coincidences around you, both interferences and 
assistances, and see what _you_ experience.  Imho, the "Quantum God" 
will most likely aid your effort, by increasing blockages to smoking and

reducing blockages to not smoking, because if It is behind the "proper 
operation of the Universe," and if "life" is one of Its goals, then that

which tends to reduce "life" --such as willfully inhaling poison-- will

be opposed.  Unlike a Judeo-Christian "all-powerful" God, this more 
reasonable/rational/science-consistent God will affect things only to a

minor degree, but IMHO a _detectable_ degree.  If you're honest, and you

don't try to alter the _test_itself_, you should find the effect(s) I 
posit present in your effort.


JB> TOO MUCH coincidence?  My test(s), I propose, can help answer that
JB> question, and, being founded both on the idea that the Universe is
JB> inherently "intelligent and self-aware," and on _hardware_science_,
can
JB> also perhaps provide "good reasons to believe" that it is so.

CJ>         Your question do tend to match my questions.

I pride myself on asking pertinent questions of the universe....
(*grin*)


CJ>         However, as to trying to distinguish positive results from
CJ>  the various possible explanations--that indeed is an interesting
CJ>  philosophical question.  Assume for the sake of argument that the
CJ>  effects you want exist:  how can we distinguish between the effect
CJ>  of John Brawley's wishes on the universe from a posited Quantum
CJ>  God?

Metaphysically AND physically, the likelihood that MY BRAIN, an 
extremely minor fragment of Universe, can be the causative agent of 
"directed coincidence" for everyone else, especially with everyone else

having an equivalent brain and being "in the mix" with me, is minor.  I

can't possibly _know_ everything that's going on everywhere, nor is it 
logically sensible that my brain alone can process that much information

AND make predictive conclusions AND output universal probability- 
altering effects that change universal reality in subtle ways.

On the other hand, the entire universe, functioning as a vast, nonlocal-

fast (infinite or near-infinite bandwidth), self-aware and intelligent 

probability computer, could be aware of everything going on, be able to

process all of it, and be able to output 'controlled' minor adjustments

to any part of it anywhere.

I'm sane.  It ain't _me_.  (*chuckle*)

Distinguish between them by large population sampling, within the 
strictures of the hypothesis and with a reasonable assumption that the 
effects sought will have a component of universality.  (The effects, 
given the same motivation amongst the researchers/subjects, should be 
concsistent if the Cause of them is consistent and universal.  If John 
Brawley isn't anywhere around (and he can be in only one place at a 
time), the common effects are probably from a common source that is NOT

John Brawley.  (*chortle*)


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... "There can be only One."   --Connor McLeod

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Millennium Lunacy
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:13:19
EID:8f1f 222d71a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6f369657
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d7ab1d
On 11 Jan 97, David Worrell wrote:

DW> 08 Jan 97 11:22, Judith Bandsma wrote to Brian Shreve:

JB> And we might get an extra year of peace if the stupid fundies would
JB> learn to count. There was no year 0. Therefore, the 21st century
JB> doesn't begin until Jan. 1, 2001.

DW> Considering that Jesus didn't die when that damn monk thought he did,
DW> the "millenium" is considerably farther off.

What's your opinion of the start of the year-counting system?

We have two claims:

1:

-3....-2....-1....0....+1....+2....+3,

and 2:

-3....-2....-1/1....+2....+3

Neither of these has a "year zero," there is just a difference in WHEN 
one says "year 'x' has passed."  In (1), it's like birthdays, in which,

while there is no "zero year," there are fragments of a year ("The 
baby's six months old") until the year is _over_, when we say "He's one

year old."  In (2), there is also no "year zero," but while we don't 
count ages of people this way, some are claiming our _calendar_ works 
like this, and we are "in" 1997 for real, not in a partially-done 1998.

Your opinion, sir?


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Buddhism: Music by God; Lyrics by Siddharta Gautama.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:19:55
EID:5b8d 222d7260
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 3dc8e4d2
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1d61937a
On 11 Jan 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC>  RC>> And if I said that I *know* the Tooth Fairy exists?
RC>  JB>> To *know* it is implies "it IS!"

RC> Indeed. And thus I can say that the Tooth Fairy does exist.
RC> Can't you? Have you never been the Tooth Fairy?

JB> I have never been the Tooth fairy. I do not contribute to my
JB> children's tendencies toward irrationality; the society they're
JB> stuck in does plenty of that, without me adding to it.

RC> I think that some harmless (especially fun and creative) make believe
RC> can serve as an innoculation against more harmful make believe.

OK, if I grant that, would you grant that make-believe also provides 
_practice_ in making believe?  It develops a habit of being able to make

believe, when lack of same provides less practice?  (Therefore those who

are not encouraged to make believe will be less susceptible to making 
believe in later life....(?))

My kids, as soon as they were old enough to be able to think semi- 
rationally (about four), were quietly and carefully disavowed of the 
idea that Santa Claus "really" existed as well.  My ex-wife really hated

that, but then, she's turning into a fundie so I don't have much respect

for her opinions.  She's somewhat stupid, too.  Thank [insert diety 
concept] my kids are not.



Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Leggo my Ego!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 13 Jan 97  14:25:55
EID:528c 222d7320
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 ee60ea65
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1d61937b
On 11 Jan 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:

RC> A numeral is a symbol used to represent a number; you will see
RC> many examples of them on your keyboard.

JB> You do have a way with words, don't you?  It's not always what
JB> I'd call "polite"....

RC> Perhaps you have read into it something that is not there?

Later comments in this message from you suggest a low probability of 
that....  (*grin*)

RC> A number, however, is the abstract concept being represented.
JB> Fine.

RC> Then I take it you do see the difference. Correct?

Correct.  Thank you for the remedial educational effort.  ;)

JB> (Note: zero represents "nothing" --categorically:

RC> To be more precise, you should say that zero represents "none."

It does both.  The concept of "nothing" is sweeping.  Zero applies to 
_representing_ it, as well as to representing "none" of _something_.

JB> 'zero fingers' is equivalent to 'zero ones' and 'zero tens.'

RC> While the quantities are the same (none of each), the things being
RC> quantified are different in each case, please note.

Extending, one may include ALL categories: when there is "none" of 
_anything_, "zero" represents that condition as well.


JB> The _concept_ is of absence of something, not necessarily
JB> limited to mathematical somethings.

RC> Quite so. The concept itself -- zero -- is not itself "nothing"
RC> (exactly the point I have been attempting to emphasize).

"'Nothing' itself" is an oxymoron.  My point goes to this ultimate- 
absolute, which imho cannot be spoken about in language --even the 
language of math: this absolute is NOT "the empty set" --that is a 
_thing_, not NO Thing.

I agree, therefore, but do not think you have grasped the truth.
Convince me.

JB> "Zero," while valid as an answer in English,

RC> As well as in math, a more precise language than English.

Both are approximations.  The core concept, that "zero" represents in 
both languages, is deeper than both.


JB> _implies_ positiveness: it is less negative than "-1."

RC> To make up something called "less negative" and then assert that
RC> this quality makes something positive is absurd, John.

To state a thing is absurd does not let you off the hook, or cancel the

validity of the statement.  -2 is obviously ("trivially obvious") "more

negative" along the number line, than -1, hence -1 is "more negative" 
--again, along the number line-- than 'zero.'


RC> The number zero is neither positive nor negative. Have you never
RC> heard of the trichotomy law?

Relative negativity/postivity.  See next comment.


JB> Hence, inversely, it is "more positive than minus one."

RC> And is minus one "more positive" than minus two? Will you next

Yes, it is.

RC> be saying that all the negative numbers are positive because
RC> they are all "more positive" than some number that is relatively
RC> "more negative?"

Yes.  "Trivially obvious."  Rationale: draw a line, infinite in both 
directions.  Move along that line and stop where you feel like it.  
Slice the line in two with an infinitely thin blade and call your slice-

point "zero."  You could have stopped _anywhere_ along the line: 
infinity (in both directions) allows you to move infinitely far along 
the line in either direction before you stop and slice, and when you do,

_wherever_ you do, there will still be '+' infinity in one direction and

'-' infinity in the other.  The actuality of the position you place 
"zero" is totally arbitrary.  Taking two such number lines, and shifting

one with respect to the other, makes clear that it's completely 
arbitrary what you call "more positive" or "less negative."


RC>  RC>> How many fingers are on your hand? Five.
RC>  JB>> Do fingers exist at all?  (yes)

RC> I ask a quantitative question, and you substitute a yes-no one.
JB> Not so.

RC> The quantum religious nutball version of "IS NOT!"

(My referred-to example of the low probability that I read something 
unpresent into your "examples on your keyboard" comment, eh?)

....And you even excised my following reasoning, so _who_ is it with the

version of "IS NOT!"?


JB> I point out that the category "fingers" is brought into
JB> existence by positive number,

RC> Sloppy thinking. No enumeration is required for fingers (or for
RC> the category "fingers") to exist.

Disagree: at least "one" --or a fragment or infinitesimal part of "one"-

- of something _must_ exist, for the category to exist.  If nothing at 
all of the category exists, then the category itself does not exist.

"Nothing unreal exists" --Spock; Vulcan philosophical pre-precept.


Jno B.    : jbrawley@creation.org      (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1        GenNet 33:6250/1.1

* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *

... Would a Hindu dentist transcend dental medication?

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Brian Shreve
|Sub:  The Alignment List    01/
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:f2fa 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c444e25e
BS> KW> J.J. Hitt

BS>He "married" a former best friend of mine. JJ's got class, but I'd bet
BS>no one here who hasn't met him could pick em out of a group of 3, or
5
BS>or 10 people.  JJ's got a drive mankind doesn't see too often.  I hold
BS>alot of respect and admiration for this guy. A friendship is not in
BS>the horizon, but I like what he is about, and his compassion for learning.

  I don't think that this is the same person as our JJ.  I don't
think that our JJ is married--in quotes or otherwise.  And s/he'd be
pretty easy to pick out in a crowd--s/he's blue.  I've seen the picture.


Anyway, if you want to post in Holysmoke, you might want to think about
sending me your listing for the Alignment list.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Pardon me, but are reason and logic allowed here?





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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Nate Cookson
|Sub:  Cheese Whiz
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:f003 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 21aad5e1
NC> KD> That "one" doesn't have any rights yet because they're not born
yet.
NC> KD> It's that simple. Birth is the beginning of rights.

NC>     This kind of logic is so stupid it's pathetic!  Accoriding to this
NC>     5 minutes before it's birth, it's not human.. but as soon as the
NC>    baby makes it out, it's human!!  So what happen at that moment of
Birth
NC>that made it more human than just before it was born?  

NC>    Your logic is not only fautly, it's sick........

Five minutes before it's born, it's still hooked into it's mother for
life support.  Your logic isn't the only sick thing about you.

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.-Samuel Johnson




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Nate Cookson
|Sub:  Quote material?
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:578d 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 8734391d
NC>My Favorite Martian has spoke again!
NC> MG>> He's a fundy with a lawyer.

NC> NC>       I guess that's why everyone thinks you have a "higher 
NC> NC> education"
NC> NC>       It allows you to label everyone as a "fundy"..  

NC> MG> Only those with IQ's equal to their shoe size, Fundy.

NC>      Don't look know but your so called higher education is leading
NC>     you into major hallucinations, since you don't have a real clue
NC>     to my shoe size.  I sure hope your anchors to reality are more
NC>      secure than your wisdom seems to be.... 

NC>     Your losing it big time man....... 

Screaming 'Is not' already, little fundy?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Perhaps God is not dead; perhaps God is himself mad.--RD
Laing




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Adultery, etc.
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:8247 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0b7e43ab
DW>Wednesday January 01 1997 13:02, Joe Shedlock wrote to Sue Armstrong:

DW> KW>> Anyway, Glen didn't say that pagans are unfaithful, he said that
DW> KW>> as we pagan women are not the property of our men, the concept
of
DW> KW>> 'adultery' doesn't apply to us.

DW> SA>> Frankly, I don't see the point in "open" marriages.  If both (or

DW> JS>  Frankly, I see a legalistic-contractual view of marriage as
DW> JS> unrealistic.

DW>Frankly, that strikes me as rather like saying "Fuck it. No one is perfect,
so
DW>why even try?"
DW>Katherine logic: Since men have never been considered the property of
their
DW>wives, the concept of "adultery" doesn't apply to men.

  See, you can get it right if you try.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * PORTE-KOCHERE - Sacramental wine





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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  Spam me big boy!
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:ecc4 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 8160d177
JB>-=> Katherine Wintersnight spoke thusly to Lynda Bustilloz <=-

JB> KW>   What ever did happen to that bear?  Or did the Bear run
off
JB> KW> with Ken?

JB>The bear mauled Ken with tooth and claw. However, the bear hadn't had
JB>it's shots, contracted Hep B from the blood and is now subsisting in
JB>a hospice.

Is that why it went bald?

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Pound forehead on keyboard to continue.




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Judith Bandsma
|Sub:  oh wells
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:78ff 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 50e62fb6
JB>-=> Lynda Bustilloz spoke thusly to Judith Bandsma <=-

JB> LB> getting. But I didn't expect he'd rebound by stomping on YOUR creative
JB> LB> efforts. And I'm sorry about that, Judith. I know how annoying it
is to

JB>If it hadn't been me, it would have been Katherine, I'm sure. He's gotten
JB>so used to HIS own creation of the 3 of us as a single entity that I
don't
JB>think he *can* think of us as discrete, separate people any more.

Which is only one of the reasons that I don't want anything to do with
him.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Practice safe sex- Go fuck yourself.




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  HOLYSMOKE
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:5f36 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6ba45d62
MB>On (31 Dec 96) Katherine Wintersnight babbled to All...

MB> KW> And posting from:

MB> KW> JJ>--- April V0.994PBeta
MB>JJ>
MB> * Origin: EYE OF THE STORM (1:225/364.4)
MB> KW> JJ>SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 353/250 396/1 3615/50 51

MB> KW> Then, following right after we have a slew of LB Spam, posted from:

MB> KW> LB>Jesus Saves            North Bay, Ont.

MB> KW> LB>--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
MB>LB>
MB> * Origin: Far Point Station (1:225/364)
MB> KW> LB>SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 353/250 396/1 3615/50 51

MB> KW> Now, what I'm wondering is are these two the one and same person?

MB> KW> Does a point have to be a whole separate system?

MB> KW> Or have we caught Leonard with his hands and his stung pride in
his
MB> KW> pants?

MB>Hard to say.  Sysops often run a point off their own system, but
MB>usually number it either 1 or 0, although they can easily pick
MB>any number they desire.

If they aren't the same person, it makes me wonder just what John J,
thinks that he's going to gain form sucking up to Leonard that way.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Preacher-salaried, urban witch doctor




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Stuart Lumgair
|Sub:  HOLYSMOKE
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:91a6 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6323d43e
SL>KW> Now, what I'm wondering is are these two the one and same
SL>KW> person?  Does a point have to be a whole separate system?

SL>KW> Or have we caught Leonard with his hands and his stung pride
SL>KW> in his pants?

SL>   They could easily be the same person. Any sysop can send
SL> messages which appear to be from a point off their system.
SL> On the other hand, there is no way to know for sure. Best
SL> just to treat both persona's the way they deserve to be
SL> treated  .

I tend toward thinking that they are the same person, mostly because of
the slimy self service praise that 'John J' ladled over 'Leonard'.

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Press any key to continue or any other key to quit




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Mimi Milstein
|Sub:  The Alignment List    01/
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:be23 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f5bb478b
MM>Something, unfortunately, went wrong again... you reposted
MM>Part 1, but Part 2 has still not appeared.

MM>Or maybe the last posting was simply a dupe (?)... I noticed
MM>several of your replies in my latest package were dupes.
MM>Whatever... I hope to see Part 2, eventually :-)

I keep trying.   As the second round seems to have done the same
thing, even after I chopped it in two, I'll try round three in three
parts.

If you have internet access, you can see the whole
thing on my site at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3158/cast.html.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Priests do it with alterboys (ahem)




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  NEVER BE GODLY
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:0fe3 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ecbe1125
DC>-> On 02 Jan 97  12:28:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa

DC> DC> RS> Nor does Al remember being weaned . . . yet I bet he doesn't
DC> DC> RS> start grabbing breasts when looking for a snack . . . 
DC> DC> MH>  Yeah, I'm sure he has a much better cover story than that ...
;-)

DC> DC>You seem pretty brassiere of yourself.  

DC> KW> That's a bra'd indictment.

DC>Well, Maiden, you are holding to Form.  

You wouldn't want to say that I was strapped for a reply. Only if it was
a long line .

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * PRO BOZO PUBLICO - Support your local clown




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   J.j. Hitt
|Sub:  MY SUMMER WEEKEND
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:8705 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d1791f13
JH>On Dec 26 18:06 96, Katherine Wintersnight of 1:381/123@fidonet.org wrote:

JH> KW> Many pagans have chosen to comply with the local laws 
JH> KW> in so far as a civil marriage to get the legal status, 
JH> KW> then taken care of the religious end in at another 
JH> KW> ritual if they don't have access to someone who is able 
JH> KW> to sign the legal paperwork at a handfasting. 

JH> I've signed a marriage licence as the "official" before.
JH> But it was at a mexican restaurant.

JH> The qualifications (as printed on the back of the licence) are
JH> broad enough that ULC membership qualifies. 

This will differ from state to state.  But there is always someway
around the rules for male-female couples.  It's the gay and poly people
who have troubles.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Protest Dinoflagellates! Mesozoic Society against Perverted
Prac




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Marilyn Burge
|Sub:  Cartoon
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:b713 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5f5dd305
MB>On (01 Jan 97) Katherine Wintersnight babbled to Martin Goldberg...

MB> MG> CG>> Just finished doing this cartoon; there's a big sign
MB> MG> CG>> next to a phonebox which says, "Dial G.O.D. for God!"

MB> MG> MG>> I don't get it.

MB> MG> CG> That's OK. You don't have to.

MB> KW> MG> I am beginning to think you a bigger moron than I thought
MB> KW> MG> at first.

MB> KW> Careful, Martin, he'll pull his IQ on you. 

MB>Are you saying poor Martin is going to be pummeled with a cream puff?

An empty one.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Reagan made movies.  Gingrich believes them.




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  holiday celebrations
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:c12b 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d420f67f
GTP>GTP>> What exactly does mammon look like. . .maybe it would be easier
to get
GTP>GTP>> a likeness of mammaries and give them away. 

GTP>KW> They do have some really nice breast forms out there.  Now, should
the
GTP>KW> lucky recipient be required to wear the prize?

GTP>But, of course. 

We'll have to give some thought to just the right 'containment device'
to present the booby prize in--something nice and lacy and itchy. 
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.-Samuel Johnson





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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Baubles
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:38b2 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6e9ec753
GTP>GTP>FR>> Don't forget to tell him about the bright baubles the women
tie
GTP>GTP>FR>> onto their flimsy gauze...  it's better with the bright baubles.

GTP>GTP>> AMBER. . .acres and acres of amber.

GTP>KW> Or moonstones....it's amazing just how many baubles a pagan woman
can
GTP>KW> pile on without looking overdressed, isn't it?  Maybe because it's
GTP>KW> because the gauze is only there to support the pretties. 

GTP>You know, you're right!  I have been known to wear five or six necklaces,
GTP>myself.  And I'm not a jewlry person.  Lady Soltahr wears a dozen or
more,
GTP>plus a ring on almost every finger, three pairs of earrings, and a dozen
GTP>bangles on each wrist.  And she never looks gaudy.  She looks mahr-velous,
GTP>dahling.

I'm not a jewelry type person, either, but you can usually find a
moonstone or two someplace on me day to day .  Perhaps it's because
we don't tend to go for the little tinkly pink ice sort of stuff?  Or
because what we where tends to be interesting, handmade pieces rather
than the stamped out Zale's junk?

GTP>So, do you prefer silver like most of the rest of us?    Could we
locate
GTP>potential pagan women by their distain for gold?  

But of course!  The only piece of gold that I wear is white gold--a
plain but rather substantial handfasting ring.  I do have some other
things in gold, but I never bother with them.  Anyway, gold doesn't tone
with my skin.

As for locating potentially pagan women, I don't think so.  From my
personal observation it seems to work the other way around--the more
pagan she becomes, the less gold she wears.

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Perhaps God is not dead; perhaps God is himself mad.--RD
Laing





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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Alignment list
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:acd9 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cbd80647
GTP>GTP>KW>> Not that I'm aware of, unless you want to count Joanna.

GTP>GTP>> I don't think yoyos count.

GTP>KW> If that's the best that they can do, is it fair to discount their
only
GTP>KW> 'conversion' on this echo?

GTP>  I guess not.  Where is she anyway??  Haven't seen her in
months.

GTP>  I am so happy I am finally hooked to IRC.  I had a great time
last
GTP>night.  Can't be there tonight.  They are doing maintenance type stuff
to my
GTP>server.  

I should be on more regularly once everyone is back in school and this
place calms down a bit.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Placate the great God Murphy regularly!





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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  MY SUMMER WEEKEND
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:ff8f 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a4766ba8
GTP>KW> How is it breaking the law to find a legally recognized way to mate?
If
GTP>KW> my state recognizes common law marriage, it is a legal way of handling
GTP>KW> the problem.  If I married Bear in a recognized civil rite, does
a
GTP>KW> unrecognized religious rite invalidate that valid and legal binding?
How
GTP>KW> is finding a way around their rules a fault?

GTP>Wild and I did it the other way round.   We got handfasted and a couple
days
GTP>later decided the accountants would like it better if we made it legal.
Our
GTP>minister didn't even bother to anything but sign the papers.

Because both families decided that they wanted to be there, we did have
a ceremony--if only a civil one.  I had wanted to do it in a nice,
pastel type suit, but the only thing that I could find was white
brocade lace embellished tea length dress.   Everyone who knew
me well found it sidesplittingly funny that I ended up getting 'married'
in a white dress.

GTP>RH> RH> KW>> in, and do the public 'wedding' for the sake of peace in
the
GTP>RH> RH> KW>> family--and still do the handfasting for themselves.

GTP>RH> RH>> This would seem the safest course.

GTP>KW> It's not an uncommon one. 

GTP>RH> KW>> Especially if the pagan isn't willing to come out of the broom
GTP>RH> KW>> closet to their extended family.

GTP>Alot of folks around here do it that way.  Tiggy and Bruce will be handfasted,
GTP>for a year and a day, sometime in the next year.  Then, when Bruce is
finished
GTP>with school, they will make it legal and do the family thing for her
original
GTP>family (since she's my kid now).

We're seeing more and more semi public handfastings down here, skipping
the whole wedding/courthouse thing.  I officiated at one last summer
held in the municipal rose garden that was just beautiful.

GTP>KW> Again, why do you assume that as a pagan and a witch, that I'm doing
GTP>KW> something illegal, or doing anything that would place me in more
danger
GTP>KW> of that meat grinder than any xtain?

GTP>Because your ARE pagan. . .it stands to reason you are evil.

But of course--we aren't doing it 'right'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * PORTE-KOCHERE - Sacramental wine





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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Arthur Barnes
|Sub:  "flat earth" town
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:aec3 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 397bcec2
AB> AB> The first
AB> AB> time, I had a  really incompetent teacher who ended up being fired
at
AB> AB> the semester.  Everyone  in that class failed at least once.

AB> DH> Ah, the instructor. And you didn't learn how to pass anyway.

AB>No, see, I'm very inept at anything related to mathmatics.
AB>Except for the calculations that go along with biology and chemistry.
AB>Like I said, when they hired a new teacher who actually explained things
AB>instead of trying to discipline everyone all the time I and many people
AB>passed.

In other words, you needed to be babied.

AB> AB> EVERYONE.  When they got a new teacher,  I passed.  The second time
AB> AB> was during summerschool.  I had a decent teacher,  but they taught
us
AB> AB> out of the same book (stupid Saxon book).  The reason I  failed
that
AB> AB> time was because they tested us with the Texas State Credit By 
Exam
AB> AB> test.  There were things on that test that weren't in the book.


AB> DH> Now the book. Don't they expect you to read anything but one
AB> DH> book, or to take responsibility for passing courses yourself?

AB>We get one book.  That's what they teach us out of.  I wouldn't know
what
AB>else to get.  I can't very well pass a test that has questions that I've
AB>never seen and have no idea of how to solve on it.

Arthur, you aren't suppose to get the same math problems.  You are
expected to apply what you've theoretically learned, and solve new
problems.

AB> AB> I decided the
AB> AB> school can  go screw itself because I'm going to get my credit by
AB> AB> correspondance during the  summer.  They really need to get their
AB> AB> acts together.  

AB> DH> That ought to tell 'em. I'll bet they change their ways after you
AB> DH> do that.

AB>I made that statement meaning that I don't care what they do.  I'm gonna
AB>get my credit without them.

AB> AB> Oh, another thing they  did.  At the beginning of the
AB> AB> year, we got our scheduals.  I got all the  honors classes I wanted.

AB> AB> The funny thing is they had me in the advisory for  mentaly
AB> AB> challenged kids!  I talked to the teacher and she let me go to my

AB> AB> French teacher's advisory.  

AB> DH> Quelle surprise. Had anyone met you when they drew this mistaken
AB> DH> assessment of you?

AB>That has nothing to do with it.  They tried to do all the schedualing
on
AB>a new computerized system without even checking to see if things were
right.
AB>This semester I was lucky.  My schedual didn't change.  My friends weren't
AB>so fortunate.  My friend, Thomas, ended up in "Family Living".  A few
of
AB>my other friends had no third period class.  Two of my friends ended
up in
AB>"Journalism II".  They haven't even taken Journalism I.  My friend Brandon
AB>was marked on his schedual as being a freshman.  He's a sophmore.

Welcome to the real world.

AB> AB> The teacher went and had my schedual
AB> AB> changed because  the administration screwed it up the first time.
AB> AB> Can you believe that?  I  put up with crap like that just about
AB> AB> everyday.

AB> DH> Well, get used to it. Sounds like life in the real world to me.

Wait until the first time they screw up your taxes.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Pound forehead on keyboard to continue.





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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  MY SUMMER WEEKEND
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:baad 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 52fcc90a
RH> KW> How is it breaking the law to find a legally recognized way to mate?
RH> KW> If my state recognizes common law marriage, it is a legal way of
RH> KW> handling the problem.  If I married Bear in a recognized civil rite,
RH> KW> does a unrecognized religious rite invalidate that valid and legal
RH> KW> binding?  How is finding a way around their rules a fault?

RH>I guess that last sentence confused me. It sounds like you are
RH>evading the law rather than complying with it in a less usual way.

I would suppose that would depend on how you mean 'evading'.  No, we
have no intention of complying with the 'christian' angle behind the
laws. And there is almost always a way around that, if you look for it.

RH> RH>?? Being pagan is like being gay? 

RH> KW> In some ways, it can be.  It's something very central to ourselves
RH> KW> that isn't 'socially acceptable', that if known can result in the
loss
RH> KW> of job and home.  There are as many mis perceptions about it.

RH>Even now, with all the laws about what an employer can ask?

Yes--if something slips out, if something becomes known, jobs can be
lost.  The exact why of it isn't stated straight out, that could lead to
legal redress.  Instead, a reason is found or manufactured.

RH> KW> Again, why do you assume that as a pagan and a witch, that I'm doing
RH> KW> something illegal, or doing anything that would place me in more
RH> KW> danger of that meat grinder than any xtain?

RH>Oh well, everyone knows that non-christians do no good, so they must
be
RH>doing bad, right?

  Yeah, sure.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Practice safe sex- Go fuck yourself.



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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  The Alignment List    01/
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:d497 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4558f35d
RV>DC>-> On 01 Jan 97  10:52:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to All

RV>> KW> WHO'S WHO: THE ALIGNMENT LIST:

RV>> KW> ---- Becke Boyer,      Harrisburg, PA.    eclectic Wiccan     
At

RV>> KW> #holysmoke. (Continued to next message)

RV>DC>Never saw the , at least not in this packet.  :(

RV>You expected a women to get it right.??....the 1'st time ?
RV>   Dream on.........................

RV>            { Harpy shield in place & tested }
RV>    [ Pies bounce off/avoid chocolate base materials ]

  After all, we're used to dealing with men.  We're used to
things not working on the first try.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Preacher-salaried, urban witch doctor




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Jan Deboer
|Sub:  Re: goodbye
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:feeb 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b67300b0
JD> CJ>>> SM> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!"   [d&rg]
JD> CJ>>> JH>  GOURDS! GOURDS!  SQUASH HIM!
JD> CJ>>> DC>  GARRANDS!  GARRANDS!  SHOOT HIM!
JD> CJ>>> ML>  GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
JD> CJ>>> EV>  GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
JD> CJ>>> ML>  GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
JD> CJ>>> JH> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
JD> CJ>>> ML> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
JD> CJ>>> DC> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
JD> CJ>>> ML> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
JD> CJ>>> DC> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
JD> CJ>>> ML> GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!
JD> CJ>EM>>   GaAsFETS! GaAsFETS! AMPLIFY HIM!
JD> CJ>RV>    GROWLER! GROWLER! SHORT-CIRCUITED HIM!
JD> CJ>        GOPHERS! GOPHERS! FTP HIM!
JD> KW> GALACTOPHORE! GALACTOPHORE!  MILK HIM!
JD>GEIGERS! GEIGERS!  IRRADIATE HIM!

GNU!  GNU!  GORE HIM!

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Press any key to continue or any other key to quit




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Dave Hamilton
|Sub:  cheese whiz
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:6a46 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2a45b05f
DH> GP>> Got me, I was really too busy being worried whether my husband
was
DH> GP>> going to live, but it wasn't the only article I'd read about plants
DH> GP>> that week, so it stuck in my mind.

DH> DW> It stuck in your mind to the extent that you believe a fuking
DH> DW> *cabbage* can tell if a "cabbage killer" walks into the room, and
DH> DW> gets *upset* about it?

DH>I can see I'm going to have to sneak up on that turnip this
DH>weekend. It was in the kitchen last Saturday when I executed
DH>the other one. I wonder if being covered in wax limits the
DH>effect at all.

Be carefully!  Turnip bites can be vicious.

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Priests do it with alterboys (ahem)




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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  Holysmoke convention
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:707a 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b7a65bba
GTP>DM> KW>> Or team up with others of us who cant stand to sleep in
GTP>DM> KW>> nightclothes!

GTP>DM>> Ah, that would be me.

GTP>DM>> (Lucky me!)

GTP>KW> Well, that'll make three (four?  I assume that Glen will be there,
too)
GTP>KW> in the clothing optional room. 

GTP>Yeppers, he will.  And possibly two of our yougins. But they'll probably
want
GTP>their own room so they can cruise the guys.   I will definitely have
to
GTP>tatoo Suzanne. 

Maybe we'll need a clothing optional floor .  But, then, how will we
keep the horny xtians out?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * PRO BOZO PUBLICO - Support your local clown

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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub:  execute her ?
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:4473 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e9758be6
GTP>Heilsa, Katherine!

GTP>While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Starfire heard
GTP>Katherine say to Richard:

GTP>RS>> Live in fear, Gwenny.  Apparently Wilbur has balls enough to
GTP>RS>> want to kick some ass . . . 

GTP>KW> Someone in that marriage needs them.

GTP>  Maybe David could loan Jimmy a Twinkie.

Now, calm down, Gwen.  He's a product of social programing.  You can't
blame him for being a lemming.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.

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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Starfire
|Sub:  blast
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:00
EID:1f74 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1969df25
S>JH>> It completely baffles me why some people choose to conduct so
S>JH>> much of their private lives in such a manner that it is broadcast
S>JH>> worldwide. Is it possible to really be that starved for attention?
S>JH>> I wouldn't think so, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

S>KW> The loss of the small, gossipy village environs?

S>Actually, HS is basically a small gossip environs.  How many people, total,
do
S>you suppose have ever spent enough time in here to know about anyone else?
S>Couple of hundred tops?
S>Sure, it's there for anyone who wants to read it, but so is the society
page
S>(if they still have those in your local paper).  Big deal.

Yes, we do still have one, and it's pretty pathetic .

Yes, this is a village, with all of the social interactions and gossip
that you see in a village.  People travel through, some stay a while
and then hit the road, other's settle in and call it home.  As people in
the States by and far don't live in small groups, we will manufacture
them.  Holysmoke is just such a manufactured community--in just the same
way that a good Coven is a 'manufactured' family.

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Protest Dinoflagellates! Mesozoic Society against Perverted
Prac


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|From: David Worrell
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 14 Jan 97  04:46:19
EID:725f 222e25c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32db1036
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73a5ee4c
PID: GED3 2.5
13 Jan 97 16:20, J.J. Hitt wrote to David Worrell:

JH> On Jan 12 17:21 97, Tiger Eyes of 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org wrote:

TE>> You know it is assholes, like you, that cause so many people to
TE>> starve theirselves to death and commit suicide.

JH>  Feeling any guilt yet?

I don't think I know the meaning of the words "feeling" and "guilt." It's
hard to be a small-dicked misogynist with those concepts getting in the
way, after all.

I do know that I enjoy living on land that was stolen fair and square from
backwards-assed podunks who never invented the wheel, though.

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  symbolism
|Date: 14 Jan 97  04:53:31
EID:c6b1 222e26a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32db1161
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32da3f9c
PID: GED3 2.5
Monday January 13 1997 13:58, Dan Ceppa wrote to ROBERT CURRY:

RC>> A Twinkie is a phallic symbol? How about a Little Debbie's snack
RC>> cake?

DC> Twat symbol are you referring to there, Robert?

Ohhhh... you've been a *baaaad* boy...

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Stupid Staal Fiascoes
|Date: 14 Jan 97  04:54:03
EID:73ea 222e26c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32db11a8
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32da425c
PID: GED3 2.5
Monday January 13 1997 14:10, Dan Ceppa wrote to All:

GT>> Do you really want everyone to start reposting all your old
GT>> fiascos??
JS>> I know of no 'old fiascos' and also, whatever turns your/their
JS>> cranks.

DC> Send your entry right here.

DC> Any and all Stupid Staal Fiasco Messages will be saved.

You must've just installed one of those new 300 bazillion gig hard drives.

I'm impressed.

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 14 Jan 97  05:05:23
EID:3bd6 222e28a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32db1459
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73a59546
PID: GED3 2.5
Monday January 13 1997 15:38, J.J. Hitt wrote to Dan Ceppa:

St>>> But better than the ignorant Shits who did invent the
St>>> wheel and nearly destroyed the world in the process.

DC>> So, what brand of travoise does your horse pull?

JH>  Don't forget that before the advent of horses to North
JH>  America the native peoples used a different animal as
JH>  their beast of burden: women.

He already knew that, but I didn't. Kinda shoots a hole in po' little Starfire,
doesn't it?

I wonder how long she'd last pulling a travoise?

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To:   Karen Davis
|Sub:  Sex as public service
|Date: 13 Jan 97  22:47:20
EID:b6fa 222db5e0
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32db0fd8
REPLY: 1:207/212 922a696c
Hi Karen, a portion of your response got to me, and wanted to
share it.

Jd> Sheesh....maybe the boys
Jd> should start saying NO! Not tonite, honey, I'm 

Think your response was fine, but think had I of responded, I would
have basically agreed with JD.... Boys, as well as men DO say NO on
occassion. To some boys, to some men, sexual desires are controlled
by their own sensibilities, their own sense of right and wrong, their
knowing with sexual relations CAN and often do lead to certain responsibilities
they're not ready for.

I've said no a few times. Some of them no's meant yes (smile) but I
stuck with the NO as I knew the difference between desire, love, and
raging hormones.

Having an older sister, I KNOW the anguish felt when their boyfriends
wanted to have sex, I know Lee did to, but one thing Lee and I shared
as brother and sister was a strong desire to have sex for the first
time with THE person we loved and to marry, we both knew that this
sort of sex was to be special. 

Now, chastising myself for loosly wording this note, using the word
sex....Sex is fine, but if the sex is without love, one may as well
masterbate to climax, it will result in the same thing, but "making love"
is so emotionally and spiritually satisfying. Making love leaves no trace
of guilt whereas having sex leaves a lot of room for guilt, 2nd thoughts,
ill memories, and something....well, something lacking, something to be
desired, so to speak. Follow my thinking??

Animals have sex, humans have sex, but having sex isn't what I desire,
without love, sex sucks. Sex for the mere release is great, but...it
leaves nothing for self esteem, where making love with ones mate builds
self esteem, builds a tighter bond of kinship, friendship and trust.

I'm rambling, so will quit for now.


Oh, one more thing...JD said something about your Victorian attitude,
I don't see the Victorian attitude, I see sensibility. If sensibility
is Victorian, well, wish that more men and woman and boys and girls showed
this same attitude.

All this, and ignoring a crucial fact...sex doesn't make the man, nor
does it bring the boy or the girl into maturity or adulthood, it only
means their hormones are normal. Thankfully there are those kids that
DO have something between their ears that is worthy of respect.

May each of your tomorrows be brighter than the day before.

...Brian

--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 13 Jan 97  23:25:38
EID:c85d 222dbb20
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32db18d2
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73a5ee4c
TE> You know it is assholes, like you, that cause so many people to 
TE> starve theirselves to death and commit suicide.

JH>  Feeling any guilt yet?

That was tounge in cheek, no? 

--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  The Alignment List    01/
|Date: 13 Jan 97  23:27:32
EID:2d36 222dbb60
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 32db1944
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1a8c6d60
Katherine Wintersnight (darn Katherine, couldn't your papa be
a Summersnight? It's cold out there! Then again, your wit, your
being, well, Wintersnight sounds so dad gum romantic.

ANYWAYS...sorry about the above, I just HAD to say it, the debbil
in me made me say it.
---------------------

KW>   I don't think that this is the same person 
KW> as our JJ.

I can attest to the fact that JJ is the one in the same we all know
as JJ Hitt. Honest. 

KW> think that our JJ is married--in quotes or otherwise.  And s/he'd be

I aint got a clue JJ is now, or ever has been hitched.
But what I said to what you responded to? I'd swear on my
mommas grave that every single word I wrote was the truth.

KW> Anyway, if you want to post in Holysmoke, you might 
KW> want to think about
KW> sending me your listing for the Alignment list.

Oh alright, and I'll give you editing rights to, so long as it doesn't
take away from what's said...

Brian Shreve: Soon to be 43, happilly single (can't handle another
marriage) Wannabe serial murderer, specializing in killing "in your
face" xtians. Been a lurker and sporadic poster in the Smoke for 3-4
years now. 1/2 of what I say comes from the heart, the other half is
as devils advocate, attempting to either enlighten the recipient or
merely to get views I NEED to look at myself for myself in my spiritual
journey.  I'm a certifiable loon, pretty much a loner, suffer from lack
of self esteem. Lastly, my viewpoints change from day to day, depending
on my mood. I value honesty and sensitivity. 

Nuff said, and with that, I bid thee goodnight.

Brian

--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:31:08
EID:0eee 222e4be0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 73af6ae2
REPLY: 1:105/24.12 73798c7d
On Jan 12 21:10 97, Ed Mills of 1:105/24.12 wrote:

EM> After several other people pulled through and drove off, 
EM> she apparently realized she was getting very poor service, 
EM> and proceeded to lay on the horn for a solid ten minutes, I
EM> swear to Goat.

And to think that she undoubtably lives her entire life that way
and has been doing so because 90 percent of the time that tactic
actually WORKS. Be a demanding pain in the butt and most people
will give in to your demands just to get rid of you.

Could you tell much about her by looking at how she was dressed or
what kind of car she was driving? Did she look like a student, 
housewife or corporate manager? Judging from her behavior, I am
inclined to think the later.



Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  truth
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:40:24
EID:5da3 222e4d00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 73af7066
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32dae227
On Jan 14 01:31 97, David Worrell of 1:123/67.7 wrote:

DW>>> You mean like that goofy shit about raven banners?

JH>>  Watch out! He's from a "warrior tradition".

DW> Really? What does he do, fall on people?

He configures their off-line readers.

Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Look Who is Insulted?
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:41:58
EID:3dd1 222e4d20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 73af893c
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32dae386
On Jan 14 01:35 97, David Worrell of 1:123/67.7 wrote:

TE>> given us disease,

DW> And you say the white man never gave you anything...

We gave them smallpox, they gave us syphillus.

Not a bad trade seeing how smallpox has (if I recall correctly)
been eradicated.


Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:53:43
EID:698b 222e4ea0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 73af9119
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32dae4fe
DW>>> David is an old name. It is not an "olde sounding name." 
DW>>> I'm sure the difference will escape your grasp.

TE>> David is an "olde sounding name", people recognize it from 
TE>> being from the Bible, you damn moron.

DW> The name "David" is nothing like "olde sounding names" like 
DW> "Wild Hunter," "Lady Solthar," or any of that other goofy 
DW> pagan shit.

Does that mean that Commander Kortron is a "newe sounding name"?

Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:56:15
EID:698b 222e4f00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 73af982e
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32dae4fe
On Jan 14 01:38 97, David Worrell of 1:123/67.7 wrote:

TE>> You know it is assholes, like you, that cause so many 
TE>> people to starve theirselves to death and commit suicide.

DW> Nope. They starve themselves and commit suicide because 
DW> they're pathetic little weaklings who define themselves by 
DW> what others think of them.

You mean you really are surrounded by suicidal skinny people?
Kewl...

(Hmm... maybe this explains David Rice....)

Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DOUG LEE
|Sub:  Plastic Surgery
|Date: 11 Jan 97  13:44:00
EID:a87e 222b6d80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Doug Lee to All <=-

DL> Well, I suppose it was just a matter of time.
DL> 
DL> I just saw a comercial on TV where they were
DL> advertising nose jobs and breast enhancments
DL> for, get this, " No money down. Pay no interest
DL> for.." I missed for how long. The times really
DL> are a changin'. 

Wow. If one stops the payments, do they come and
reposess ones' tits?

... Ever notice that there's no "Institute for Evolution Research"?
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   STEVE HAYES
|Sub:  Zulu harvest festival
|Date: 11 Jan 97  13:47:00
EID:3647 222b6de0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Steve Hayes to All <=-

SH> BULL TURNS TAIL AT ZULU SLAUGHTER RITUAL
SH> [Pretoria News, 6 January 1997]

Cool! I wish I could have been there, and maybe
ask for the heart or balls to sacrifice myself.

... Science invites inquiry. God dies from that activity.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAN CEPPA
|Sub:  'Atheist'
|Date: 13 Jan 97  08:51:00
EID:7891 222d4660
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Chris Green to ROBERT CURRY 

CG> Case 4 however, states that the generally accepted
CG> definition of an atheist is someone who does not
CG> believe in a 'single God[sic]', this is the definition
CG> which was given in the Collins.

That means Christians are "atheists." Hell, that means
only Muslims are NOT atheists, since they only have
one god--- I cannot think of any other cult that has
only one god.

... Krishna's birth: the ORIGINAL reason for the season!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAN CEPPA
|Sub:  How fitting!
|Date: 13 Jan 97  08:56:00
EID:e922 222d4700
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to All <=-

-> On 03 Jan 97  03:02:36, Nate Cookson got back to Glen Todd

>NC> the Greatest of His followers was a Ten maker so he
>NC> could support himself without being a burden to
>NC> Christians at the time.

THErE gOes that freakY funDy capitAlIsm again. Goddamned I 
wish soMEone woUld peRforM a sTudy oR twO on thiS 
PhenOMena--- maybe it's pathOloGical, AnD thus a BlooD tESt
oR someThing would shoW paRents of A newborN iNfant juST 
how LikelY the infaNt is proNe tO fUndameNtaliSM. That way 
They CoULd sell the infant in IRan WherE iT beloNgs.

DC> Isn't it great? The founder of xianity was also a 
DC> counterfeiter of money!

How much was ten sheckles worth those days anyhow? And has 
the period limitation statuate run out by now?


... "Unleash the atheists! Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of reason!"
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   GWENNY THE POOH
|Sub:  cheese whiz
|Date: 13 Jan 97  09:29:00
EID:98c4 222d4ba0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to Nate Cookson <=-

>NC> Shows how little you really know about God[sic].
>NC> He (God[sic]) already knows you very well, and
>NC> your opinion of Him[sic].

ROTFL!

GTP> And he's too ashamed to show his face, because he
GTP> knows we are right.  BTW, I have had a
GTP> standing invitation to all deities to come to
GTP> dinner at my house. Now reservation necessary, but
GTP> it risks having to eat Wild's cooking.  So far
GTP> the only thing approaching deity (besides myself,
GTP> of course) to have shown its face is CHAOS. But
GTP> that could just be a side effect of four dogs, four
GTP> cats, four kids, a baby and three tvs.

ONLY the god Chaos?! That's remarkable. Around my place
the god Discord shows up now and then, even though he is
never invited. Then there's Lilith, who shows up once
or twice a night.

... "Those 'facts' are meaningless to me. I live by faith." -- Jim Staal
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   J.J. HITT
|Sub:  Coward!
|Date: 13 Jan 97  09:33:00
EID:9a5a 222d4c20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Dave Hamilton <=-

>DH> "atheism /n. the theory or belief that God[sic] 
>DH> does not exist."

JH> THAT is in the OED?
JH> Sounds more like Merriam Webster's.   

I find it highly unlikely that OED said the above.

... "There are no Gods!" -- Diogenes
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  Personal jabs
|Date: 14 Jan 97  12:09:00
EID:476e 222e6120
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Worrell to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting DAVID RICE to DAVID WORRELL <=-

>DR> I cannot imagine how this thread is in any way 
>DR> productive.

DW> That depends on how you define productive.

"Yielding favorable or useful results; constructive."

>>GtP> At least she isn't lying around at home whining
>>GtP> about her love life.

>DR> Hey! I resent that!

DW> Be careful - you might get labelled as a small-dicked 
DW> misogynist.

Is that worse than a no-dick misogynist? If so, I bet
it would be a complement for some Fundamentalists here.


... "There are no Gods!" -- Diogenes
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   KELSEY BJARNASON
|Sub:  Cheese Whiz
|Date: 14 Jan 97  12:11:00
EID:5129 222e6160
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Kelsey Bjarnason to Nate Cookson <=-
-=> Quoting Nate Cookson to Gwenny the Pooh <=-

>>>NC>     ""Abortion stops a beating Heart""

ROTFL!

>>GtP> Steak stops a beating heart.

>NC> Gee whiz, you don't really mean that do you!! All 
>NC> those folks dropping dead over Big Mac's!!!  And 
>NC> to think I had steak last night!!

KB> Are you really this stupid, or are you just pretending 
KB> very well?

My bet is "C) All Of The Above."

KB> I'm not sure, because your other messages support the 
KB> first position.

The more he appears to be that stupid, the more Brownie 
Points he believs his god(s) will ward him.


... Robert Jackson PREDICTED you would say that! -- J.J. Hitt
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub:  Absolute Bigorty? Nope
|Date: 14 Jan 97  12:49:00
EID:ab9a 222e6620
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to David Rice <=-

>>LA> Can you give one good reson why he would not have said
>>LA> something just like that?

>DR> Because it is:
>DR>    1) false

LA> Neither you nor anyone else has so far shown that. The 
LA> most you have done is try to muddy the waters, for your
LA> own

There you go again, Liar, lying for your gods. How very 
ugly.

===PAY ATTENTION YOU STUPID LYING SHIT:==

Author: Rob Zuber
Title: Clarence Darrow: Misquote

"IT IS BIGOTRY FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO TEACH ONLY ONE THEORY 
OF ORIGINS." Hmmm. Did Clarence Darrow ever say that?

Tom McIver attempted to track down the source of this 
quote [1]. The results are very interesting.

First it should be noted that it wouldn't make any sense 
for Darrow to say such a thing at the Scopes trial. Darrow 
was trying to defend the practice of teaching *only* 
evolution, which is what the Dayton public schools were 
doing at the time of the Scopes trial [1]. Darrow would be 
shooting himself in the foot.

So what did McIver discover? It's a long and twisted story 
so I will attempt to summarize.

"One thing is clear, however: Darrow did not say any such 
thing during the trial - at least not according to the 
quasi-official, unedited, published transcript of the 
entire proceedings, the 1925 book _The World's Most Famous 
Court Trial_ (National Book Company). It is conceivable 
that the steno- grapher might have missed a few words, 
since there was considerable noise and excitement during 
the trial, and part of it was held outdoors, but it seems 
most unlikely that such a ringing statement would have 
been omitted from the complete transcript in the published 
version considered authoritative by scholars." [1]

It seems most creationists cite an article by the 
creationist lawyer Wendell Bird [2] as their source. Bird, 
in turn, cites a biology professor by the name of Robert 
O'Bannon (who supports the teaching of creationism in 
public schools) as his source. O'Bannon is described as a 
biology professor at Lee College in Cleveland, Tennessee 
[1]. McIver says,

"O'Bannon gives no source for the quote. I asked him 
recently where it came from and whether he had intended it 
as a direct quote, as the transcript indicated, or merely 
a paraphrase. O'Bannon, who was very courteous and open, 
said it was a direct quote and that he got it from the 
Griggs reference cited elsewhere in his symposium talk."

The Griggs reference that O'Bannon cites is reference [3]. 
McIver then goes on,

"Griggs modestly volunteered that his _Science and 
Scripture_ article was a 'trivial essay' that he had not 
intended as a scholarly reference. The Darrow quote was 
written from memory, without the aid of a written source. 
For this reason, he said, he intended the quote as a 
paraphrase, not a direct quote. He had heard it orally 
from a Baptist preacher in Denver who died some years ago. 
Griggs emphasized, however, that this preacher was quite 
trust- worthy, so even though paraphrased, he is sure that 
the quote is accurate. The preacher himself got it from a 
Dayton newspaper account around the time of the trial, he 
thinks. Griggs believes the reporter probably heard Darrow 
say it before the actual court proceedings, though he is 
not sure whether it was a public statement or something 
said during an interview."

To top it all off, Dr. Norman L. Geisler (a creationist 
who once used the now infamous quote in one of his books) 
says (in [4]),

"I wish to commend Tom McIver for exposing the 
questionable authenticity of the widely used quote 
attributed to Clarence Darrow, "It is bigotry for public 
schools to teach only one theory of origins". Wendell 
Bird, whose _Yale Law Review_ article [2] was the source 
of many of the citations, has subsequently recognized that 
the quote is probably not authentic. So much for trusting 
Ivy League publications!

I believe, also, that McIver should be commended for 
revealing another misquotation of Darrow [I haven't 
mentioned this, one misquote for the day is plenty :)]. It 
is clear that Darrow did not believe that creation was 
scientific. Thus, when he declared at the Scopes trial 
that children should have 'both' creation and evolution, 
he meant both 'evolution' (which is science) and 
'creation' (which is theology). This fits not only with 
his whole argument at the trial but also with what he said 
a few years later when he declared, 'In fact, there is no 
other theory to teach regarding the origin of the various 
animal species, including man [5]."

"It is the height of bigotry to teach only one theory of 
origins." ---- Dr. D James Kennedy 'quoting' Darrow in his 
_The Case for Creation_ video.

[1] McIver, Tom. 1988. _Creationist Misquotation of 
Darrow_ Creation/Evolution XXIII

[2] Bird, Wendell. 1978. _Freedom of Religion and Science 
Instruction in Public Schools_ Yale Law Journal. 
87:3:515-570.

[3] Griggs, Jolly F. 1974. _Is the Public School the 
Established Church?_ Science and Scripture. 4:2:23-29

[4] Geisler, Norman L., 1989. _Was Clarence Darrow a 
Bigot?_ Creation/Evolution XXV

[5] Darrow, Clarence. 1932. _The Story of My Life_ New 
York: Charles Scribner's Sons.


... Do creationists really believe that we'll believe their lies?
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub:  Water and Flood
|Date: 14 Jan 97  12:55:00
EID:59f8 222e66e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to David Rice <=-

>>LA> Nothing you have said to date indicates that you know
>>LA> what you are talking about.

>DR>   Let's look at a couple of semi-real examples.  
>DR> (Truly isolated systems do not exist.)

LA> Ha ha ha! _semi-real_ huh!! What a joke. Why then does 
LA> Isaac Asimov say that we see entropy all around us,
LA> when we exist in an open system? Why does he

There is only one isolated system: the universe. Life 
lives in sub-systems (planets) around other sub-systems
(stars) at the expense (entrophy) of those sub-systems.

==PAY ATTENTION YOU LYING SHIT:==

___------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Thompson, Earth and Space Sciences Division, JPL.


Look in any textbook on thermodynamics, and you will find 
a definition for entropy. Here it is:

S = k ln(N(E))

where S is entropy, k is Boltzmann's constant, and N(E) is 
the total number of states accessible to the system, in 
the energy interval between E and E+de.

Now consider the famous second law of thermodynamics. Here 
is a statement of that law, from "Fundamentals of 
Statistical and Thermal Physics" by F. Reif, a very 
standard book on the subject. See section 3.11, page 122. 
Emphasis on the word "isolated" is not mine, it is Reif's.

QUOTE

Second law:  An equilibrium macrostate of a system can be 
characterized by a quantity S (called "entropy"), which 
has the properties that

a. In any process in which a thermally ISOLATED system 
goes from one macrostate to another, the entropy tends to 
increase, i.e.,

ds >= 0

b. If the system is not isolated and undergoes a 
quasi-static infinitesimal process in which it abdorbs 
heat dQ, then

ds = dQ/T

where T is a quantity characteristic of the macrostate of 
the system (T is called the "absolute temperature" of the 
system).

ENDQUOTE

Now look again at the definition. I don't see either the 
words, or the concepts, of "disorder" or "order" mentioned 
anywhere. I do see a reference to the total number of 
accessible states. Now consider the surface of the earth. 
It is an open system, at or near equilibrium with its 
environment. Since it is not an isolated system, it is not 
bound by part "a" above, but it clearly is bound by part 
"b".    However, now consider the process of evolution, 
the change from a basically lifeless and simple system to 
a very complex system. The complex system is far richer in 
states accessible, as a function of energy, than the 
simple system. It would seem that the process of evolution 
does, in fact, considerably increase the entropy of the 
system, rather than to decrease it, as creation scientists 
would like to believe.

In short, the "creation 'science'" definition of entropy 
is thermodynamically bogus. The "creation 'science'" claim 
that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics 
is equally bogus. I see no flaw in my line of reasoning 
here, but you are welcome to point out any that you find.

But why do "creation 'scientists'" persist with their 
inappropriate definition for entropy? The book "Decision 
Theory" by D.J. White (the only book I have on this 
field), a definition of entropy is given for the field of 
information and communication theory. I can't put an upper 
case sigma, the mathematical symbol for a summation here, 
so I will use 'SUM(X)' to mean a big sigma, with an 'X' 
under it.

E = -SUM(X) {p(X)log2(p(X))}

where E is entropy, X is any valid propositional form, p 
is the probability the the proposition X is true, and log2 
is a base 2 logarithm. You can see for youself that if 
p(X) is near 1 (almost certainly true), or near 0 (almost 
certainly false), in either case, the entropy as defined 
will tend toward a minimum. This entropy will tend toward 
a maximum where P(X) tends toward 1/2, or where 
uncertainty is at a maximum. In information theory we see 
entropy as a measure of uncertainty. This is not disorder, 
but it could be construed as such by the unwary. I think 
you will find this definition of entropy in the popular 
literature, but construed as a measure of disorder. 
Creation scientists have lifted this popularized version 
of entropy, and dropped it into a thermodynamic setting, 
where it is quite inappropriate. In my mind, this lends 
great credence to the notion that "creation 'science'" is 
far from science.


... Creationists: the ignorant telling scientists how science is done.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub:  Water and Flood (b).
|Date: 14 Jan 97  13:00:00
EID:b704 222e6800
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to David Rice <=-

>>>LA> You don't know that at all. On the contrary we now
>>>LA> know that most large mountainss are relatively RECENT
>>>LA> and appear to have raised rapidly as well. i.e.

>>DR> Yes, geologically speaking, a few million years is
>>DR> RECENT.

>>LA> And a few thousand years is even MORE recent.

>DR> That's nice. But we were talking about mountain building,
>DR> not the last time you had an actual thought.

LA> More to the point, it seems a distinct possibility 
LA> that you have yet to have your first intelligent
LA> thought at all.

==PAY ATTENTION LYING SHIT:==

Read the following books, then come back with your 
questions. That way you will at least understand the
basics.

"On Volcanism and Thermal Tectonics on one-plate
Planets" Solomon, Geophysical Research Letters,
vol 5, no 6 June 1978

"The Supercontinent Cycle" Nance, Worsley, & Moody, 
Scientific American, July 1988


... "Professional creationists:" ignorant fundies who lie for a living.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub:  Radiometric Dating
|Date: 14 Jan 97  13:01:00
EID:5d26 222e6820
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to David Rice <=-

DR>    The Age of the Earth
DR>    G. Brent Dalrymple
DR>    Stanford University Press, Stanford, CA (1991)
DR>    474 pages including index
DR>    ISBN 0-8047-1569-6
DR>    Library of Congress catalog number QE508/D28

LA> Thank you for providing that review. I have made a file
LA> of it.

But you will not go out, buy the book, read it, and attempt
to understand it. That is because you're a lying piece of
shit.

... 20th Rule of Creationism: Insist that science ignores your proof
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   SHELBY SHERMAN
|Sub:  Devotional Spam
|Date: 14 Jan 97  13:06:00
EID:2ac8 222e68c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to All <=-

SS> Someone is Spamming my E-Mail with this.  Maybe we
SS> could return the favor?
SS>
SS> =========================================
SS> T H E  J O H N  S T O T T  D E V O T I O N A L
SS> =========================================

Someone may have put your address on a mailing list.
What is the From: address?

... Ever notice that there's no "Institute for Evolution Research"?
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To:   Tiger Eyes
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 14 Jan 97  19:32:25
EID:8182 222e9c00
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 2dc28460
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32dae799
Hello David!

David Worrell wrote in a message to Tiger Eyes:

TE> Well,... when a warfaring, earth raping, gold grubbing,
TE> gonorrhea-syphilis infected race comes to a land of friendly
TE> down-to-earth people, that sort of happens.

Hmmm, wasn't syph "a sweet gift from the Native Americans"
brought back to Europe by the early colonist sailors?
That is at least how history describes one of the the results
of the white race's first major interaction with the friendly
down-to-earth people... tomatoes, potatoes, and syphilis.

... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
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|From: Domino
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Christ-Like
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:51:29
EID:71dd 222e5660
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2dbabd00
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32da6418
PID: timEd-B11
Dan, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

Do> Have you ever thought that maybe it's not a Deity that's allowing
Do> anything, that we're allowing everything?
DC> Of course we are.  We shape the world around us into what 
DC> we want it to be.  
Do> Then stop asking people why their God allows anything.
DC> Why not?  They believe in the god or gods?  As such, those 
DC> "god(s)" shape their view of reality.  

Not neccesarily.

DC> will  is overshadowed by the same book's thinly disguised
DC> threats.   
Do> Actually, it never says you *can't*. It says what will happen if you
Do> *do*. You still have free will.
DC> "You have the free will to do whatever you want.  However, if I 
DC> don't like what you do, say or think, you go to hell.
DC> Now, either change your views or I get to send you to hell."   
DC> Does that sound like free will to you?  

Actually, yes. You still have the choice of whether you'll do it or not.

E.g., free will.

Abreq ad Hƒbra

Domino


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|From: Domino
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Christ-Like
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:53:07
EID:11f0 222e56a0
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2dbabd01
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32dad4a1
PID: timEd-B11
David, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

D>> Actually, it never says you *can't*. It says what will happen if
D>> you *do*. You still have free will.
DW>> Ever hear of the word "extortion?"
D> Threats are still not definites. Yeah, the warnings of damnation and
D> such could be called threats; but you dont *have* to go with a threat.
D> You still have free will.
DW> I walk up to you in an alley, pull a gun, and say "your
DW> money or your life." You would have no problem with this?

I'd probably have a major problem with that, and I'd probably give you
my money. But I dont *have* to. It's my choice.

Abreq ad Hƒbra

Domino


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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 14 Jan 97  07:46:51
EID:2e34 222e3dc0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db5797
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1d61937a
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, ROBERT!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
ROBERT say to JOHN:

RC>>> And if I said that I *know* the Tooth Fairy exists?
JB>>> To *know* it is implies "it IS!"

RC>> Indeed. And thus I can say that the Tooth Fairy does exist.
RC>> Can't you? Have you never been the Tooth Fairy?

I have a picture of her.   A terrifying vision in pink polyester with
a flying tooth accompanying her.  Add to the picture that she makes me look
ANOREXIC, and I think you'll begin to see my point.  She's an East Coast
writer and costumer.  (I got acquainted with her first as a costumer, didn't
realize she wrote until I came across a short story of hers in either one
of the Sword and Sorceress Books or Chicks in Chainmail.)

JB>> I have never been the Tooth fairy. I do not contribute to my
JB>> children's tendencies toward irrationality; the society they're
JB>> stuck in does plenty of that, without me adding to it.

RC> I think that some harmless (especially fun and creative) make believe
RC> can serve as an innoculation against more harmful make believe.

I agree.  But ONLY if it is presented as make believe from the beginning.
I use Santa to illustrate the motto, Don't believe anything you are told
and only half of what you see. 


My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... URA Redneck if you record WWF Wrestling while you're at work.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  Darrow and Ethics
|Date: 14 Jan 97  07:58:43
EID:644e 222e3f40
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db3cc7
REPLY: 1:3800/49 000d6a29
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, David!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
David say to Laurie:

RM>> Your continued willingness to violate basic principles of ethics is
what
>> has all the Christians in this forum running away from you.  Have you
>> noticed that even Andrew, who originally supported you, is now trying
to
>> distance himself from you?  To his credit, he cannot abide your lack
of
>> ethics any more than I can.


DR> Don't let that get to ya Laurie.  I didn't back away from you in
DR> Skeptical Inquiry and I won't do so in here either.  Us blathering
DR> fundies gotta stick together no matter what! :)

How sweet.  When's the wedding?

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Sector not Found:  (A)bort, (R)etry, (H)ire new navigator?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   David Ragland
|Sub:  FRESH MEAT!!!!!!
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:02:17
EID:08c0 222e4040
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db3e51
REPLY: 1:3800/49 000d6a2c
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, David!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
David say to Al:

DR> I am new to the Holy Smoke echo.


FRESH MEAT!!!!!!

DR> I used to frequent the Religious Sub on VirtualNet before I took a
DR> long hiatus from posting altogether for diverse reasons.  I then
DR> decided to start posting again recently on the subject matter which
I
DR> was recently smitten by while doing a little reading/research.  That
DR> subject is evolution.  As I got into these discussions in the
DR> Skeptical Inquiry echo, I realized that I was not satisfied with just
DR> one subject at all.  What's more I was starving my philosophical side.

Oh, ick.  Evolution.  Never mind.

DR> So, I decided to try Holy Smoke.  The colloquial ambience is the same
DR> as many areas of this type that I have been in for the most part.
DR> However, I see a few that have distinguished themselves as being both
DR> active and productive in properly discussing/defending Christianity.
DR> It's most refreshing! :)  You write very well and obviously have a
DR> very sharp, active mind.  I wish that I had known you a while back
DR> when I was by myself dealing with Pagans and the like on VirtualNet.
DR> :)

Pagans and the like??

DR> So many of our kindred just don't get into the spirit of things in
DR> areas like this for some reason.  I don't know if it's because they
DR> feel that all their efforts are "pearls before swine" or if they just
DR> don't see the value of planting the seeds that we plant in spite of
DR> that the unbelievers think.  What do you think? I hope this new year
DR> is a blessed one for you thus far brother and wish you all the best.

Or if they know a debunking when they see one?

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... WARNING: This product attracts all other matter in the universe.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Martin Goldberg
|Sub:  Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:11:59
EID:2c9b 222e4160
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db400c
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 738e1d45
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Martin!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Martin say to J.J.:

MG>>> I was just trying to be a bigger asshole than Worrell.

JH>> You must try harder.

MG> I will.  I just need to find better targets than helpless pagans.

Defenselss, Martin, defenseless. 

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Life is the corn silk scattered midst the maze.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Rant Wars with "Commie Su
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:17:42
EID:2795 222e4220
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db41a1
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d8c29550
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Katherine!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Katherine say to Dave:

DH> KW>> Sean and Sue are having a shouting match--the sentence fragment
was
DH> KW>> to illustrate a tongue in cheek reference to the similarity of
DH> KW>> Sean's howls of 'Commie Sue' to Jimbo's frequent use of that title
DH> KW>> towards others.

DH>> Ooo, yuk. I had never made the connection. Sean may go off the
DH>> deep end occasionally but at least his brain is in use. Jim Staal's
DH>> brain has been safely tucked away out of risk from what I've seen.
DH>> I've never seen him use it.

KW> As it seems that Sean has left the arena, the fireworks are over.  Oh,
KW> well, it was entertaining while it lasted.

I was just talking to him yesterday morning (he's still getting netmail
or email at his INet address).  He was just getting the 'puter going again
and the power supply shorted out, murdering the motherboard in the process.
He's got it limping along as a 386 again, but only about 80 k of memory.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Xerox your life.  If you lose it, you'll still have a copy.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Avalon is rising, to fall no more (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  goodbye
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:19:48
EID:fd95 222e4260
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db41b9
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cdcc19c5
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Katherine!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Katherine say to Ronald:


RV>>>> SM>> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!"   [d&rg]
RV>>>> JH>> GOURDS! GOURDS!  SQUASH HIM!
RV>>>> DC>> GARRANDS!  GARRANDS!  SHOOT HIM!
RV>>>> ML>> GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
RV>>>> EV>> GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
RV>>>> ML>> GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
RV>>>> JH>> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
RV>>>> ML>> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
RV>>>> DC>> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
RV>>>> ML>> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
RV>>>> DC>> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
RV>>>> ML>> GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!
RV>>>> EM>> GaAsFETS! GaAsFETS! AMPLIFY HIM!
RV>>>> RV>> GROWLER! GROWLER! SHORT-CIRCUITED HIM!
RV>>>> CJ>> GOPHERS! GOPHERS! FTP HIM!
RV>>>> RV>> GRID! GRID! CONTROL HIM!
RV>>>> RV>> GASSING-1! GASSING-1! ELECTROLYSIS HIM!
RV>CJ>CJ>>> GO-FERS! GO-FERS! GET HIM!
RV>CJ> RV>> GROMMET! GROMMET!  INSULATE HIM!

RV>CJ>> GLEEPS! GLEEPS! ZYRZY HIM!
RV>> GOODLY! GOODLY! A_MOUNT HIM!
RV>> GROAN! GROAN! SOUND HIM!

KW> GROUND! GROUND! CENTER HIM! 




KW> -+- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
KW>  + Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Pentecostal foreplay:  Sonny, are your parents home?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  Cheese Whiz
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:21:19
EID:da2e 222e42a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db57c5
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to Fredric:


FR>> You're sick, dear.  You need an exit councelor.

dc>> I hear that Dr Kavorkian has volunteered his services.

ML>      Let's hold an echothon to buy a Dr. K gift certificate.

That's a good idea.  I'm still sad no PBS station held a fund raiser to
buy Sagan a new wardrobe.  Would could still do it for Burke.


My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... My path?  C:\Pagan\Eclectic\Wiccan
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Visualize the post-Christian era. (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Marty Leipzig
|Sub:  cheese whiz
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:23:19
EID:82c3 222e42e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db42ca
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Marty!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Marty say to David:

GT>>>> Even plants have feelings.  I was reading in Discover (I think)

CJ>>> I have to say I'm skeptical that you read that in _Discover_. What

GP>> It's possible it was Omni.

DW>> Ah, yes. The _Cosmopolitan_ of science magazines. That explains a lot.

ML>      Phuque that. It's the _National Enquirer_ of science mags.

Well, it must publish something worthful once in awhile.  One of my friends
said they saw the same experiment on a PBS show "The Secret Life of Plants."
Besides, the choice was Omni or Christian Digest.  Which would you read?

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Grow your own dope. Plant a FUNDIE!!!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: The Point at Pooh Corner (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Naked rituals
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:34:48
EID:b1df 222e4440
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db4748
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 058ebc7e
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Fredric!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Fredric say to David:

FR> I haven't seen much of that.  While at Dragon Festival I never met a
kid
FR> who held the beliefs of his or her parents; I even got some feedback
about
FR> the sillyness of crystals and personifications of natural phenomena
from a
FR> few. Even some of the children who have vegetarian parents were allowed
to
FR> eat meat if they wish.

We are pretty casual about it here.  We talk about alot of religions.  I'd
say the closest they get to indoctrinization is that I tell them to figure
it out for themselves.  I don't ever say, "this is the right way".  Rather
I say, "I think perhaps", or "According to the beliefs of . . ."  At this
point both boys are agnostic.  Starfire is really 'into' paganism, but I
think it's just because she gets to wear nifty robes and burn candles in
her room. 

FR> It would be interesting to ask Starfire and the other one -- Gwenny's
FR> kids -- about it.

I'll point this message out to them.

dw>> In fact, I'd guess that this happens more frequently with
dw>> pagans, being a minority group, than with Christians. The
dw>> kid picks this shit up from his parents, is "attacked" for
dw>> believing silly shit at school, and goes into a "circle
dw>> the wagons" mentality which reinforces his silly-assed
dw>> beliefs.

FR> I haven't seen it.  It may be true, certainly.  After my Dragon festival
FR> visit I typed-up my comments and among them was a comment about how
the
FR> children appeared to be well-read and understood schientific principles
to
FR> a greater degree than children of non-Pagans.  There may be ideological
FR> notions of imparting a broad-spectrum education upon their children
yet I
FR> simply didn't get any comments about beliefs in their parents constructs.

My kids were raised on PBS tv.  Finding out about stuff is fun for them.
It looks like "everyone gather round the computer while mommy does a websearch"
is gonna be the new "family thing".   I'll even fire the puppy up if
they want to do their own search.

dw>> At least adults can decide for themselves.

FR> True.  But then as an atheist I underscore the absurdity and evil of
FR> religion and theism with my sons.  If they decide to adopt deity occultism
FR> in the future I would be greatly disappointed yet that would be their
FR> decision.  My experience with Pagans and Wiccans is that they adopt
that
FR> philosophy as well.

Yep.  Matthew went through a brief phase where he said "I'm going to be
a Christian."  About the third time he said that, I offered to find someone
to take him to Sunday School.  Haven't heard a word about it since.

dw>> Superstition is superstition, Fredric. Give the pagans (or
dw>> anyone else) the power the Christians have, and they'll be
dw>> just as bad. Remember that Rome wasn't all that worried
dw>> about Christians, at first.

FR> Yes, I've always agreed that the only reason Pagani and Wicca are
FR> life-affirming is because they lack political power and the numbers
needed
FR> to inflict tyranny upon the masses.  I also have always agreed that
if
FR> Wicca and Pagani survive much longer and grow in numbers, it is inevitable
FR> what it will end up being:  Little different than any other religion.

Don't worry.  That would require some modicum of organization.  We pagans
don't possess it.

FR> True, and they understand the difficulties.  There is a strict dictate
that
FR> photographs of naked children not be taken at Dragon Festival; in the
hands
FR> of Christians they would be used for obtaining untold wealth -- in a
number
FR> of ways.

There is a strict rule about photographing anyone without permission.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Never stand near a sneezing dragon.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Not shampoo, the real Pooh! (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Our Daily Bread
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:46:52
EID:3be7 222e45c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db481d
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32d8bb8c
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Rod!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Rod say to George:

RS>> Yep, there's a word for that.  Immutability.

GM>> You seem to have not noticed the question mark.  But that's how you
GM>> folks twist things isn't it?

RS> Arrrrgh!  George Mooth SPEAKS!  I made him speak!  Woooowooowoooo!
RS> What prize do I win, fellow HolySmokers?

The usual prize I would offer seems a little inappropriate in your case.


My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Books are better. No commercial interruptions.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Avalon is rising, to fall no more (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  My Wood for you
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:54:23
EID:8c47 222e46c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db581c
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32d78054
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Rod!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Rod say to Gwenny:

GTP>> And it shows how ridiculous men can be.  We women don't
GTP>> make such a fuss about lesbians.  Maybe it's because
GTP>> 'normal' heteros know they can't be trusted, so they assume
GTP>> gay men can't.  I can tell you that I'd trust a gay man to
GTP>> babysit my sons LOOOOONG before I'd trust a straight man to
GTP>> babysit my daughters.

RS> Thank you for that kind thought, dear Gwenny!
RS> [LoveCub shares the hunnypot *oog!* :)]

I mean it, Rod.  My sons were molested by a hetero-Baptist pedophile.  They
would have been much safer with a gay.

RS> Now, to the serious part.  I wish to declare that I *have* slept
RS> with Scott Baird, but don't worry, I faked every orgasm...

RS> ... and he couldn't tell any different when I splattered warm
RS> gooey yoghurt on his back :) :) :)

  You must have awesome equipment to have reached all the way to
the US. 

RS> ... then again, neither did Maliethorn :) :) :) :)

Whatever happened to Maliethorn?

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Guns don't kill people..Mail readers kill people
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Kali of the Pooh-bears (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  My Summer Weekend
|Date: 14 Jan 97  08:58:27
EID:0a66 222e4740
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db4b3e
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32d8710c
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Rod!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Rod say to Gwenny:


GTP>JS>> In any event, the greater the 'head knowledge', the great the
GTP>JS>> threat of pride over and and being puffed up. Check out the
GTP>JS>> resident big shot, Herr Leipzig if you do not wish to take my word
GTP>JS>> for it.

GTP>> Why do people like you repeatedly mistake a healthy self-
GTP>> image for "pride" in it's destructive sense.  Having pride
GTP>> is not evil.  Acknowledging one's abilities is not a crime.
GTP>> . .except to those who have to acknowledge.

RS> They like to debase healthy pride and self-image because if they can
RS> break you, that's the first step towards hopeless despair. Once you
RS> have nothing but hopeless despair -- the give you the falseness of
RS> Jesus. :(

True.  I was holding out okay before the Mormons got their hands on me.
Sunday after Sunday of being lectured about sin (and the shame of not admitting
I'd been molested because their stand is that people are born into families
they deserved based on prelife behavior) drove me to suicide.

RS> I think that's why, Gwenny.  Trojan-horse-esque isn't it?

Very.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Reality on your part doesn't constitute reality on mine.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Gwenny: Truth or bear?
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:01:49
EID:b2d2 222e4820
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db4bad
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32d882f2
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Rod!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Rod say to Gwenny:

GTP>> I'm not male, but I wanted to say something.  I got my first gay cult
GTP>> member last weekend.  He said if the rest of the gays could
GTP>> worship Madonna's tits, he could worship mine.  Of course,
GTP>> he has called me Madonna before.  It was the black bustier,
GTP>> black tights and orange silk smoking jacket, I think.

RS> It was the conical bra, and the penguin in your movie "Gwenny:
RS> Truth or Bear" wasn't it? :)

I wonder how she wears that thing.  It looks so uncomfortable.


My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... "Everyone appreciates compassion".
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
SEEN-BY: 167/166 170/400 202/777 213/213 218/890 907 244/1162 252/140
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Rod Swift
|Sub:  Execute Her ?
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:02:44
EID:8129 222e4840
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db4bee
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32d886f2
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Rod!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Rod say to Gwenny:

GTP>> Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great
GTP>> If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

GTP>> If ya like Monte Python, we do about twelve hours of Monte Python
GTP>> movies every Yule.  And there's only about fifty days until Yule.

RS> Oh my, I think I died and went to comedic heaven.  BTW, that new
RS> movie with Cleese, Palin and Curtis in it looks good. :)

What's the title??  I'll check it out.

RS> So, when are Chris and I going to be travelling to Colorado for
RS> this fun-fest?

Every Yule.  But if you were to show up some other time, we could hold an
impromptu party for ya.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... If you can't say something nice, say something surreal.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: <> The Point at Pooh Corner <> Woodland Park, CO <> (1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  Adultery, etc.
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:05:44
EID:d0ac 222e48a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db4c95
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org bfcf79d9
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Katherine!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Katherine say to David:

DW> KW>>> Anyway, Glen didn't say that pagans are unfaithful, he said that
DW> KW>>> as we pagan women are not the property of our men, the concept
of
DW> KW>>> 'adultery' doesn't apply to us.

DW> SA>>> Frankly, I don't see the point in "open" marriages.  If both (or

DW> JS>> Frankly, I see a legalistic-contractual view of marriage as
DW> JS>> unrealistic.

DW>> Frankly, that strikes me as rather like saying "Fuck it. No one is
DW>> perfect, so why even try?" Katherine logic: Since men have never been
DW>> considered the property of their wives, the concept of "adultery"
DW>> doesn't apply to men.

KW>   See, you can get it right if you try.

Shirley.  (Sorry, had to do it) 

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Don't mess with the knob.  I'm perfectly adjusted.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  NEVER BE GODLY
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:06:53
EID:e9d8 222e48c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db4cc7
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 98b9befb
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Katherine!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Katherine say to Dan:

DC> DC> RS>> Nor does Al remember being weaned . . . yet I bet he doesn't
DC> DC> RS>> start grabbing breasts when looking for a snack . . . 
DC> DC> MH>> Yeah, I'm sure he has a much better cover story than that ...
DC> DC> MH>> ;-)

DC> DC>> You seem pretty brassiere of yourself.

DC> KW>> That's a bra'd indictment.

DC>> Well, Maiden, you are holding to Form.

KW> You wouldn't want to say that I was strapped for a reply. Only if it
was
KW> a long line .

Of corset.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Will you cum quietly, or shall I use earplugs?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Faith is wishing not to know what is true. (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:08:26
EID:0b0b 222e4900
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db51ea
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 060c7fe3
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Fredric!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Fredric say to Marilyn:

DW>> Bullshit again. I simply pointed out that your daughter was
DW>> overweight. Your reaction, your husband's reaction, and
DW>> Marilyn's reaction showed just how truly *uncomfortable* with
DW>> your respective weights all of you are.

mb>> Gwen, this is an out-and-out lie, and the lying sack of shit knows
mb>> it. I TOLD HIM the reason I spoke up: it was because he was
mb>> ragging on the two of you about something you could do nothing
mb>> about.

FR> Do you honestly believe that people have no control over their own weight?!
FR> Or that parents have no control over an offspring's weight?

The "lie" is that he "simply pointed out".  He did alot more than that.
However, I agree we do have some control over ours and our children's weight.
We can force ourselves to be the "right" size and force our children, too.
The good mormon who kept Suzanne while I was looking for Rachel allowed
her one hotdog without a bun, two tablespoons of corn, and 4 oz of milk
for dinner the night I got to Colorado (she was nine).  Then they all ate
chocolate cake (Mommy Moron was 290, daughter Moron was 250) for dessert
and the younger kids called her a 'fat pig' when she asked for some.  In
a month's time she had lost 20 pounds and was sick.  Of course, her rage
at them is nothing compared to mine.  I went through the fat baby stage
as a teen.  I was 5'6" and 150. . .the doctor's charts at the time said
140 was the right weight for me.  My mother constantly hounded me to lose
weight, saying that she (at 300 pounds) was "ashamed" to have a fat daughter.
If it were today, I would be considered right on weight.  Go figure.  But
the constant ragging made me rebel.  By the time I was in college, I was
190.  I got back down to 170 and then got pregnant and that was it.  I've
dieted and lost and gained and lost so many times my metabolism is shot.

So I don't try to control her.  She will control herself when she heals
from what was done to her.  But however she controls her weight, she will
never be able to be what David seems to consider beautiful. . .ie 85-100
pounds.  She is 6' and still growing.  Her hands are over an inch longer
than Wild's.  Her shoulders are so broad that she can't wear my coat.  
Even if she were the correct weight (which seems to be in the 170 to 180
range), she would bear the brunt of ridicule from the rest of the kids her
age.  It doesn't matter what your weight is if you are different in anyway.

FR> I don't want to jump into this idiotic, fuckingly stupid argument;

  Too late, Fred. 

FR> I just read your comment above and had to wonder if you actually
FR> believe this else typed something in badly.

Weight, to a certain degree, is a genetic heritage.  Those of us with Eastern
European heritage have the genetics to store food for rough times.  The
rough times seldom come, so it stays there.  Dieting merely causes the metabolism
to think it is starving.  Not that it can't be done, but one has to decide
if it is worth it?  I have decided, no.  I am happy the way I am.  If I
were to try to lose weight, it would be for health reasons, not for appearance
reasons.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... *   <- Tribble     0   <- Pregnant Tribble
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Pass the Cup of crimson wonder (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Mimi Milstein
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:34:43
EID:4368 222e4c40
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db58da
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 2da4f243
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Mimi!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Mimi say to Tiger:

TE>> Not all of us are like you J.J.....I mean when your parents
TE>> dumped you off at the local orphanage, for being a freak of
TE>> humanity, they really didn't know that you would be so hurt
TE>> by it. I feel so sorry for your parents.

MM> Uhhh, that one falls rather flat, tiger lady. Most of us on the
MM> echo know about JJ's parents. They seem to be extremely nice
MM> people as JJ has made long travels with them and endured the
MM> difficulties of finding suitable eating places for them as they
MM> are vegetarians.

Ummmm, isn't this just a flame fight.  We have to stick to facts in a flame
war??  Damn!  Someone needs to tell David Worrell that.

MM> You better stick with the Nazi-skinhead stuff until you know
MM> the people here and their background a little better. Otherwise
MM> you will project as fake-fur rather than a lady of the jungle.

The circling the wagons seems to be on the atheist side this time, I see.
This is just a fun little flame war, and I've yet to see any pagan come
running to defend us, since they know we can do it ourselves.  But this
is about message 12 or 13 where the atheists are defending David. How come
the Todds were supposed to "understand" that David was just trolling when
he made disparaging remarks about my daughter, but we must be serious. 
Come on, folks, get a clue. This is just a game.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Excess of sorrow laughs: excess of joy weeps.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Not shampoo, the real Pooh! (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
SEEN-BY: 733/1 2401/0 2424/10 2442/0 2608/2 2803/1 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Hello
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:39:15
EID:b707 222e4ce0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db54be
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d8d6eb
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Dan!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Dan say to Starfire:

St>> Heilsa, Starfire!

St>> While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Starfire heard
St>> Starfire say to All:

St>> Ah-ha.  You did it.  Good to see you here me darling daughter.  BTW,
-+->> ^^^^ ^^         ^^^^^^^^
St>> Starfire

DC> So, will the real Starfire and/or Gwenny the Pooh figure out what
DC> you/they are doing and get back to us and stop talking to yourself or
DC> selves.

We got it figured out.   I didn't catch the mistakes until after I had
saved several messages and then the OLR wouldn't let me edit them, because
they 'weren't from me'.   Things should be running right again.

BTW, how do you know I'm real. 

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... More power to you! 
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Not shampoo, the real Pooh! (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 133/5050 143/1 147/34 2021
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SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 395/100 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:41:25
EID:72cc 222e4d20
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db56d3
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d9bf8a
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, David!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
David say to Gwenny:

GP>> Why so surprised JJ.  Is it that uncommon among your friends and
GP>> whatever family you might have?  Yes, some of us DO know our ancestry
GP>> and take pride in it.

DW> You take pride in the fact that my ancestors whipped the shit out of
your
DW> ancestors and stole all their land?

Do I take pride in which ancestors??  The Puritans fleeing tyranny and looking
for a place to establish their own brand of tyranny?  The Slavic immigrants
of early this century who came here with nothing and made a life for themselves
and their children against great odds?  The Indians who survived the killing,
raping and thieving of the earlier ancestors to become a strong people?
The Welsh immigrant of last century who married one of the survivors of
the Trail of Tears?   And who took their land.  Last I checked the Welsh
and English still have their land and the Slavics didn't loose their land
until this century.

DW> Odd. I guess you're rather like all the wanna-be Confederates down
DW> here - only worse. There aren't any Confederate Reservations, after
DW> all.

What reservation?  I was raised by my white mother and her German husband
in a working class neighborhood in Ohio.  I don't believe there are any
reservations there.
My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Do students of Zen Buddhism do Om-work?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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SEEN-BY: 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Becke Boyer
|Sub:  HOLYSMOKE CONVENTION
|Date: 14 Jan 97  09:50:32
EID:174e 222e4e40
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db591b
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Becke!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Becke say to Starfire:

DM>> KW>>> Or team up with others of us who cant stand to sleep in
DM>> KW>>> nightclothes!

DM>>>> Ah, that would be me.

DM>>>> (Lucky me!)

KW>>> Well, that'll make three (four?  I assume that Glen will be there,
KW>>> too) in the clothing optional room. 

S>> Or five if the Gwenny {my mama} decides to take me along as a body
S>> guard.{G}

BB> Your mom, need a bodyguard? From the image I get of her, hon,
I
BB> don't think she needs one..(that's not an insult, believe me--I *know*
your
BB> mother can take care of herself--she's one tough lady. =))

Oh, I sure can.  But think how much less I'll have to worry about it if
I'm shadowed by an Amazon in black.  Besides, if she's shadowing me, I know
where SHE is.  (reverse psychology, dear. )

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Imagine a Miss Universe contest after we meet life from other planets!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Avalon is rising, to fall no more (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 283/120 284/29 290/14 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32 377/86
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PATH: 128/203 166 1 190 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005

|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  Look Who is Insulted?
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:09:52
EID:72e0 222e5120
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db6330
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73a578e1
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, J.J.!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
J.J. say to Tiger:

TE>> It would be the voice that says, " You have killed my people for
TE>> our lands, destorying our homes, given us disease, put us on
TE>> reservations to imprison us and tear our pride away, and raped
TE>> the earth of her possesions and gifts.  This is how you show us
TE>> kindness, you people with no love in your hearts."

JJH>  And who says that Christians have a monopoly on guilt mongering?

JJH>  Let me enlighten you to a simple truth:

JJH>     NO ONE (not me, not anyone else) on this echo ever put anyone
JJH>     on a reservation, gassed any Jews, owned any slaves (with the
JJH>     possible exception of Jim Staal), burned any witches, lynched
JJH>     anybody or put any Japs in a camp. Keep slinging your Caucasian
JJH>     Guilt from the past all you want. It won't stick because I
JJH>     didn't do it.

Pushed your buttons, did she?  I guess the war is officially over.  
I hope I don't see too many atheists gloating about fundies who argue with
taglines, since this whole Indian thing started with an atheist arguing
with a sig line.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... You are both the sculptor and the clay.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Pass the Cup of crimson wonder (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  HOLIDAY BOOKS
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:13:58
EID:8ee3 222e51a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db5d43
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 73a86646
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, J.J.!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
J.J. say to Mimi:

MM>> I really wish WWW pages gave something useful, without forcing
MM>> surfers to waste money on waiting for idiotic pictures of no
MM>> practical relevance. USA users may be having no problems, but
MM>> the rest of us (paying for every second of long-distance phone
MM>> time) see it once, and never again.

JJH>   I too tend to find the 'Web' to be something of a disappointment.
JJH>   While I don't pay by the minute, I still tend to value my time
JJH>   too highly to think of much of the vast bulk of the 'fun and games'
JJH>   pages I have I seen.

JJH>   Too often it is an emphasis on form at the expense of content. When
JJH>   a page has twenty or more graphics and, at best, two paragraphs of
JJH>   text: it aint communications, or even art, it's masturbation.

I haven't had much problem with this.  But I tend to be searching through
serious stuff.  I WILL find support of my hypothesis that plants respond
to stimuli.  I've heard that I should look for The Secret Life Of Plants.
  I already have several files saved to go through later.  And newspaper
pages give you the option of text only.

JJH>   (And far far too often those two paragraphs of text are next to
JJH>   impossible to read because they are on a wildly colored background
JJH>   that makes it look like Walt Disney puked on your monitor.)

Funny.  Have you checked out our Webpage?? httm:/ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/wildhunter.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... And Man said: 'Let there be God,' and there was God!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: The Roman Empire - Xtianity and lead poisoning (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Masochistic Maiden
|Sub:  What???
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:18:13
EID:6432 222e5240
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db5d87
REPLY: 1:352/666 32D9DE66
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Masochistic!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Masochistic say to Gwenny:



GP>> rofl,sdsmcom. . .The only way anyone can ever deduce the truth from

MM> Hey!!! a new sequence for me!!!  I know "rolling on floor laughing"
then I
MM> go blank... what's the sdsmcom stand for???

Something like "scaring the dogs and spilling my coffee. . .I don't remember
for sure.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Prayers are always answered.  The answer is usually no.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Mars
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:18:58
EID:5205 222e5240
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db6499
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32daf585
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Al!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Al say to Gwenny:

AS>>> You're right...goddesses aren't common at all...

GtP>>> Harumph!  I sense some subtle sarcasm here. 

AS>> Not at all. Or maybe just a shade. There are quite a few women I
AS>> consider at least near-goddesses. 

GtP>> Good save, Al.

AS>  Hey, I haven't been married for sixteen years without learning SOME
AS>  survival skills.

Do you tutor??  Wild could use some lessons.  The question he REALLY needs
to learn to answer is "Do I look alright?"  He always just says, "Yeah."

AS>> Don't confuse me with one of the OTHER posters from Tennessee.

GtP>> Never.

AS>  Thanks.

No problem.  And it looks like that is over.  (And remember the next
time an atheist teases a christian about arguing with a tagline that the
whole Indian battle got started over JJ arguing with a sig line. )

BTW, I have declared the Todds the winner, since we managed to get up the
dander of several atheists. . .after the flame war was well under way. 
We only argued facts until we realized it was a flame.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Illiterate?  Write for FREE HELP!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: Avalon is rising, to fall no more (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  "sucking up"
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:21:18
EID:06e5 222e52a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db5e2d
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32db03ed
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Al!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Al say to Gwenny:

GtP>>> Oh, of course.  What do you think, the black lace corset or the
GtP>>> purple and sequin harem outfit??

AS>> The purple and sequin harem outfit would be more Frazettaish, I
AS>> think.

GtP>> Okay, purple and sequin it is.  Now, who is gonna draw it??

AS>  Got me. I'm a reasonable good artist with pencil or pen, but I'm no
AS>  Frazetta or Boris or Bama.

Well, buggers.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... "Even his inflatable doll cheats on him!"  -Wench
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Faith is wishing not to know what is true. (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Afraid of mortality?
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:24:12
EID:2bd6 222e5300
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db5f54
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1ec58a0f
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, ROBERT!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
ROBERT say to AL:

RC> Or roses...

RC>         Look to the blowing Rose about us -- "Lo,
RC>         Laughing," she says, "into the world I blow,
RC>            At once the silken tassel of my Purse
RC>         Tear, and its Treasure on the garden throw."

RC>         And those who husbanded the Golden grain,
RC>         And those who flung it to the winds like Rain,
RC>            Alike to no such aureate Earth are turn'd
RC>         As, buried once, Men want dug up again.

RC>                     . . . . . . . . . .

RC>         Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare,
RC>         And those that after some TO-MORROW stare,
RC>            A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries,
RC>         "Fools! your Reward is neither Here nor There."

RC>         Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss'd
RC>         Of the Two Worlds so wisely -- they are thrust
RC>            Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn
RC>         Are scatter'd, and their Mouths are stopt with Dust.


But Moving Pieces of the Game He plays
Upon His checkerboard of Nights and Days;
Hither and thither Moves and checks and slays
And, One by One, back in the closet lays.

Into this Universe and Why not knowing,
Nor Whence, like Water, willynilly flowing,
And out of it like wind along the Waste,
I know not Whither, willynilly blowing.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Poetry is an echo, asking a shadow to dance. 
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: First Church of Gwenny's Tits (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:27:07
EID:9a46 222e5360
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db5fda
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1ec58a13
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, ROBERT!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
ROBERT say to TIGER:


TE>> Not all of us are like you J.J.....I mean when your parents
TE>> dumped you off a the local orphanage, for being a freak of
TE>> humanity, they really didn't know that you would be so hurt
TE>> by it. I feel so sorry for your parents.

RC> On a scale of 1 to 10, this flame has a 0.03 rating.

Hey, she's just a kid.  She'll catch on.

RC> Don't you have any goofy pagan curses to fling about? That would
RC> be far more entertaining.

I don't think we could come up with a worse curse than those two already
suffer being themselves.   Gosh, this has been so much fun.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... I am Tim Allen of Borg. Prepare to be Re-wired.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
* Origin: <> The Point at Pooh Corner <> Woodland Park, CO <> (1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Personal jabs
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:31:29
EID:73cb 222e53e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db6124
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32da3657
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Dan!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Dan say to Tiger:

TE>> While scalping some dumb white man, Tiger Eyes

DC> Just another trick the Indians used to help get their bounty
DC> from the white men.  The Indians earned their pay from scalping,
DC> not white men, but other Indians.

DC> Deal with it.  It's your history and ancestory.

Boy, we seem to have done some dander raising ourselves.  What is this,
the atheists vs the Todds.   It was a flame war, folks.  Why is everyone
getting upset about us giving as good as we get?  When this whole thing
started folks kept telling me to get over it, David was just trolling.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Wanna really impress someone? Pray in Enochian.
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Remember -- Rome was Christian when it fell. (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Indians
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:35:44
EID:f4c2 222e5460
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db61f2
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32da700a
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Dan!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Dan say to Gwenny:

TE>>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations

DC>> Yep, around here, they are all bickering over who gets to sell off
all
DC>> the clams, net the salmon rivers and build the biggest gambling

GTP>> Shows they are quick learners. 

DC> Sure does.  It shows that they will take the easy way out and claim
DC> sovereignty over anything that they can make a buck on and not have
to
DC> work.

Not into stereo-types at all, are we.

DC> As you were saying?

Damn.  Must have been interrupted when I wrote that message.  It was supposed
to also say, "It only took them three hundred years to learn to be as greedy,
slimy, and selfish as white men."  Sorry.

My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Barney devoured by hadrosaur in Jurassic Park -- millions rejoice!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: Remember -- Rome was Christian when it fell. (FidoNet 1:128/203.2)
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|From: Gwenny the Pooh
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Native Americans
|Date: 14 Jan 97  10:37:44
EID:dcb7 222e54a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.2@fidonet.org 32db6503
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32da7162
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8271
Heilsa, Dan!

While bumping down stairs after Christopher Robin, Gwenny the Pooh heard
Dan say to Tiger:

TE>> Not all of us are like you J.J.....I mean when your parents dumped
you
TE>> off at the local orphanage, for being a freak of humanity, they really
TE>> didn't know that you would be so hurt by it. I feel so sorry for your
TE>> parents.

DC> Try as you might, you are missing the proper follow through.  I
DC> might be a factor of your ancestory.

TE>> Listen to the voices of the Indian nations,

DC> See!  The were always out to kill and/or enslave the other
DC> tribes.

DC> "Here:  I've got an island that you can buy, cheap!"  Said
DC> to Peter Minuet upon his landing on Manhattan.

I think we can claim a win in this flame war.  The only person who responded
to David's blasts about Suzanne was Marilyn.  I have now had six people
from the atheist side (which I had always thought I was on before) post
messages in response to the Indian issue.  Nice to know what pushes buttons.



Amazing how this whole line started from someone arguing to a sig line.



My skin, my bones, my heretic heart are my authority,
Gwenny


... Find God?!?  Why?  Is She missing?
--- GoldED/386 2.50+ 164LM1
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  jesus needed...
|Date: 13 Jan 97  18:55:11
EID:62c7 222d96e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 f88590ae
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1d61937f
On (11 Jan 97) ROBERT CURRY wrote to JIM STAAL...

JS> (1 Tim 1:15 NIV)  Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves
JS> full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save
JS> sinners--of whom I am the worst.

JS> And you can sign my name to that one if you like.

RC> So you are saying that you're worse than your prostitute-fucking
RC> hero, Jimmy Swaggart?

RC> Does Wilbur know about this?

As a matter of fact, in the past, I (we, me and Wilbur) have done things
the right honorable Brother Swaggart has probably never even thought about.

... All things work together for good to them who love God. - Rom. 8:28

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  Literally Seaking
|Date: 13 Jan 97  18:56:51
EID:7920 222d9700
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 d5550d60
REPLY: 1:3603/210 1d619380
On (11 Jan 97) ROBERT CURRY wrote to JIM STAAL...

RC> with: Karen Davis

RC>  JS>> REad the book.

KD> I'm not convinced that book is accurate.

JS> I am.

RC> A friend of mine was asking how anyone could be convinced about
RC> the accuracy of any book that claims an ass can talk. I showed him
RC> your posts.

LOL! Good one! :)

... If corn oil's made from corn, what is baby oil made from?

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  Educational Experience
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:00:06
EID:a5ed 222d9800
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 3486893d
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d87240
On (11 Jan 97) Al Schroeder wrote to Jim Staal...

RS> You make the assumption that Christians are deserving of being
RS> recognised as human.

RS> How silly of you, Jim.

JS> I see. If not, then what? Why are you so bigoted against one segment
JS> of society, Rod?

AS>  Ahhhh, but you can't call it "bigotry," Jim. Despite the fact that
he
AS>  often complains about bigoted treatment towards gays, Rod would
AS> doubtless  be incensed to know he is doing THE EXACT SAME THING to
AS> another
AS>  group...and just as mindlessly, just as prejudicially.
AS>    Excellent point, Jim.

yeah, and Jim Staal not only recognizes gays as human, but even
befriends them. Go figure...

... Blue Wave v2.21...a REAL man's offline reader!   

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:01:10
EID:7044 222d9820
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 bc9b1b45
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d7a255
On (11 Jan 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...

-> On 10 Jan 97  12:21:18, Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift

RS> Would he like super-sized fries with that order?

JS> (Jim Staal at the take-out order thingey) 'Did I _say_ I wanted fries
JS> with that!?'

DC> Sorry, Jimbo.  You got that backwards, as usual.  It's you
DC> that are attempting to fill the orders at the drive-thru.

No, Con. You got it wrong as usual. Jim sold TV's and stereos at the
local discount mart during the holiday season (retiring back to the
basement this week) for $6.00 an hour, but _never_ burgers and fries.


... For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord. (1 The 3:8)

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:02:45
EID:e080 222d9840
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 b1dc9dca
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 058a01ad
On (11 Jan 97) Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Staal...

KD> Promisekeepers is an organization intended to destroy my rights. As
KD> such I will oppose it until it is shown to be what it is.

js> could you please provide some evidence
js> to back up this obvious false claim?

FR> What you should do is contact the organization's masters or check out
FR> the newspaper and magazine reviews which get posted here from time to
FR> time.

FR> You'll find that they're just as evil and filthy as you are.

And you will find that they are as much in error as you are. (BTW, their
'masters' are God, and He is _never_ in error.)

... Bo Knows Blue Wave!

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:03:52
EID:e080 222d9860
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 48bdf012
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 058a01ae
On (11 Jan 97) Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Staal...

Gt> Remember how you were recently saying that Wild is a wife abuser?
JS> Never said it.
DC> Bull-fucking shit you didn't, you misogynistic bastard.

js> Evidence???

FR> See?  You _are_ a Promisekeeper.

Evidence?

... You can find out a lot about paranoids just by following them around.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:04:21
EID:e080 222d9880
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 30a07ea3
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 058a01af
On (11 Jan 97) Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Staal...

FR> You Promise Keeper cultists are truely sickening, you know that, Jim?
js> Nope.
FR> Which is why your evil continues unabaited.
FR> Your Christian evil disgusts me.
js> And your refusal to recognize the truth of God is disgusting to me.
FR> I understand that you're only mouthing off what you know are lies
FR> because you have nothing that can defend yourself from the
FR> embarrassing truth that you are, without doubt, a sick, evil demon.

js> I guess only time will tell who is
js> correct and who is in error here, Fred.

FR> Ah, yes.  The ignorant's final cop-out.  You know that you're sick and
FR> evil, needing help but incapable of asking or seeking it, and you know
FR> that your deity constructs don't exist.  And the ignorant's final
FR> cop-out?  Demand that the evidence you can't find will be presented
FR> after everyone's dead.

FR> That's evil.  You're evil.

Sir, for one who knows not the difference between 'insist' and 'demand'
you are really one to talk. How could two brothers be so frigging
different? David is a cool dude and you...you are a pompous ass.

... Blue Wave is to QWK as AmigaDOS is to MS-DOS.

--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Well, women?
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:05:50
EID:8ecb 222d98a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 121f286f
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 058a01b0
On (11 Jan 97) Fredric Rice wrote to Jim Staal...

iJS> I must say you must live on a pink cloud to have let
iJS> yourself been deluded by these women. Their general
iJS> purpose here has been clear to me from the beginning:
iJS> they hate men in general, and Christian men in particular.

FR> How about that?  A surprise, huh?

js> That I would speak the truth such as above? No
js> surprise at all.  I am known to speak the truth.

FR> You are a Promisekeeper, mouthing off in hate.

Hmmmm...wherein do you find hate in the 7 promises of the Promise
Keepers [tm]?

... A feminazi's mind is a terrible waste.

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Domino
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 13 Jan 97  19:06:34
EID:cbf3 222d98c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 0f23203e
REPLY: 1:123/531.0 2d9152c1
On (12 Jan 97) Domino wrote to Jim Staal...

D > Jim, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:

D > What evidence do you have to say that Jesus was male and the Bible is
D > an accurate reference for anything besides the beleifs and practices
D > of Christianity?
JS> (2 Tim 3:16 NIV)  All Scripture is God-breathed and is
JS> useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in
JS> righteousness,

D > The Bible is evidence of nothing if you choose not to beleive in it.
I
D > want *solid evidence*. Physical, not textural.

D > If, that is, you have any.

So typical of 'heathens', Domino. I'll just bet if you are male, you are
led around by your dick as well. The spiritual is richer, deeper and
much more meaningful and true than the mere physical. Here is my proof:

(2 Tim 3:16 NIV)  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

And as the Holy Spirit confirms it to my heart, I need no further
'evidence'.


... Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. (1 Cor 10:14)

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Jan deBoer
|Sub:  word replace
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:39:36
EID:f4a2 222da4e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 59c4b9cb
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32d876d4
On (11 Jan 97) Jan deBoer wrote to Jim Staal...

Jd> On 10 Jan 97  17:22:44 Jim Staal wrote to Rod Swift...

JS> (Heb 11:6 NIV)  And without faith it is impossible to please God,
JS> because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and
JS> that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Jd> Yup. Just ask the nuns killed in South America. Got their reward at
Jd> the end of a rifle.

No, their reward is confirmed as:

(Mat 10:22 NIV)  All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands
firm to the end will be saved.

Jd> Ask the two  year old whose grandparents took him to church last
Jd> sunday so god could have a van run over and kill him in the
Jd> consecrated parking lot.

Or, just possibly, as Romans 8:28 confirms, perhaps had he lived some
miserable pederast would have gotten ahold of him and prevented him
from ever having a normal relationship with a woman as well pain at the
time.

... Be a Blue Waver. Join the Wave!

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:42:14
EID:1418 222da540
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 050bc278
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32d90bba
On (12 Jan 97) Glen Todd wrote to Jim Staal...

GT> Heilsa, Jim Staal!

GT> Saturday January 11 1997 11:23, Jim Staal wrote to Domino:

JS> (2 Tim 3:16 NIV)  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
JS> teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

GT> Blatantly self-serving, entirely unsupported, and completely
GT> irrelevant.

Only in the eyes of Pagan scum.

... Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift. (2 Cor 9:15)

--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To:   Glen Todd
|Sub:  Why do you NEED to be sav
|Date: 13 Jan 97  20:43:03
EID:d835 222da560
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 03fbebdc
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 32d90cce
On (12 Jan 97) Glen Todd wrote to Jim Staal...

GT> Heilsa, Jim Staal!

GT> Saturday January 11 1997 11:25, Jim Staal wrote to Gwenny The Pooh:

GT>> Let's just make it more non-denominational and include Isis, Kali,
GT>> Herne, and Gwenny.  Hey, I am a goddess.

JS> Or you are, are you? All that in addition to being a male bashing man
JS> hater?

GT> I can _guarantee_ you that the divine Pooh-bear does _not_ hate men
GT> (except, perhaps, for ignorant, misogynistic fundy men and a couple
of
GT> alleged atheists so moronic that they might as well be fundies), and
GT> is definitely much better qualified for deity-hood than a certain
GT> ignorant, sadistic, death-obsessed desert bully-boy that I could
GT> name.)

Excuse me? Like any other human born under the sun other than Jesus
Christ, I nor she am qualified to be deified.

... Blue Wave: 75,000 smurfs at a baseball game.

--- PPoint 2.00
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