God Damned Fundies!

|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  Mars
|Date: 15 Jan 97  13:09:28
EID:2eaa 222f6920
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32dd86dc
AS>  Hey, I haven't been married for sixteen years without learning SOME
AS>  survival skills.

GtP> Do you tutor??  Wild could use some lessons.  The question he REALLY
GtP> needs to learn to answer is "Do I look alright?"  He always just says,
GtP> "Yeah." 

The answer to that depends. The correct answer of course, is "Even
prettier than usual" (not "more beautiful". Gets them suspicious.) but if
she REALLY wants a frank appraisal of what she's wearing, it's wise to
give her one...clothes can be changed. But proceed with caution.

GtP> No problem.  And it looks like that is over.  (And remember the
GtP> next time an atheist teases a christian about arguing with a tagline
GtP> that the whole Indian battle got started over JJ arguing with a sig
GtP> line. ) 

Yeah. It's interesting that some posters are saying something about
another group which...if, say, Jim Staal said it...he would be a
"brain-dead bigot".

GtP> BTW, I have declared the Todds the winner, since we managed to get
up
GtP> the dander of several atheists. . .after the flame war was well under
GtP> way.  We only argued facts until we realized it was a flame.


I always SAID you were a wise woman. I often get in arguments that are
both facts AND flame.



... I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 15 Jan 97  13:19:50
EID:e1b2 222f6a60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32dd86dd
AS> There are a lot of women and men at my church whose spouses aren't
AS> believers.   I've never heard any of them say that they believe they
AS> won't remember their spouse in Heaven.

RH> Her answer was not church dogma, just her own explanation.

Right. An interesting one. I've heard it asserted that GOD doesn't
remember past sins when asked for forgiveness, which I think is taken from
a too-literal reading of a few scriptures. But I've never heard that.

RH> And the C of C is not noted for deep thinking or questioning
RH> of belief.

RH> IMHO, of course, but I have a LOT of experience here.

Well, I've had more, and in all honesty...
I agree with you.



... Necromancers do it loud enough to wake the dead.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   ROBERT CURRY
|Sub:  More grist from the web
|Date: 15 Jan 97  13:28:28
EID:d1cf 222f6b80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32dd86de
DC> It is when the alternative is an eternity of pain and suffering.

AS> Or an eternity of bliss and happiness.

RC> The New, Improved version of your religion's notion of Hell?
RC> Delightful. Sign me up, please.

Be more than happy to. Go to the nearest church, and tell the preacher
there you are interested in getting to "Heaven".  That's our brand name.
He'll take care of the details.
And thank you for shopping at JesusMart.



... I've had a bad day,I feel like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  Quote
|Date: 15 Jan 97  13:53:05
EID:4d85 222f6ea0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32dd86df
JB> It's always interesting to watch the anti-fundies attacking each
JB> other. Indicates perhaps they're attacking the fundies for no better
JB> reason  than entertainment.  Seems when there're no fundies around to
JB> attack,  the wolves turn on each _other_.  Figures....

Noticed that too, did you?



... I'm not stupid, I'm not expendable, and I'm not going.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To:   Roger Hunter
|Sub:  SUPERSTION
|Date: 15 Jan 97  13:57:25
EID:92f9 222f6f20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32dd86e0
RH> Still, it was late and the spear pretty well settled things, even
RH> if he wasn't -quite- dead....

AS> Well...yeah, I DO think the spear settled things. He may not have
AS> been dead until then. He was definitely dead afterwards.

RH> Sure. Our disagreement is over how -SOON- after. I'm holding out for
RH> hours, at least.

And maybe days and weeks....pretty sloppy of the centurions who took him
down, considering that both Pilate and the Sanhedrin had a stake in
it...you would think they would make EXTRA sure that He was dead.
Personally...I think they did.



... History repeats itself when nobody listens.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven  "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Don Martin
|Sub:  One of yours?
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:28:34
EID:24a4 22300b80
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dd8536
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32dbc6a6
PID: GED3 2.5
14 Jan 97 12:38, Don Martin wrote to Dan Ceppa:

DM>     People such as Bill and Melinda Gates, Paul Allen,
DM>     Steven Spielberg, Kate Capshaw, Harry Anderson, Richard
DM>     Starky, Rod Stewart, Rachel Hunter, Tom Petty, George
DM>     Lucas, Jack Nicholson, Natalie Merchant, Amy Grant, Troy
DM>     Aikman, Sheryl Crow, Ivanna Trump, Patrick Swayze and
DM>     wife, Bob Dylan, Eddie Money, Woody Harrelson, some
DM>     members of the rock groups the Rolling Stones, Led
DM>     Zepplin, B.T.O. and Pink Floyd to name very few of the
DM>     people who have watched me in the privacy of my own
DM>     dwelling place off and on for several years have added
DM>     to this harrassment and hate crime.

DM>     Despite my pleas to ask them to leave me alone, these
DM>     people keep finding new people to watch me. Sometimes,
DM>     some of these and other people gratify themselves or
DM>     each other sexually while invading my privacy in all

Hell, I'd *like* to see Kate Capshaw, Rachael Hunter, Natalie Merchant,
and Sheryl Crow gratify themselves sexually, either one at a time or all
together. :)

I can understand, though, that watching Bob Dylan would be traumatic.


DM>     If anyone here knows why Spielberg, Gates, et al are
DM> peeping in this lady's windows, please advise and I shall
DM> forward the information to her.

They're hoping to see Rachael Hunter, of course. I've got no idea what she's
doing there.

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Ed Mills
|Sub:  Suck up! Rice Brothers
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:40:26
EID:d08a 22300d00
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dd8727
REPLY: 1:105/24.12 e8fa4ec3
PID: GED3 2.5
14 Jan 97 22:02, Ed Mills wrote to Jan deBoer:

EM>          Trade you this appliance for it:
EM>     -+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+-
EM> section 1 of uuencode 5.20 of file carrier.gif    by R.E.M.

rofl

---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  [2/2] lon mabon ebon
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:52:15
EID:6532 22300e80
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dd8b28
REPLY: 1:261/1137 2f0ee450
PID: GED3 2.5
15 Jan 97 03:30, Curtis Johnson wrote to David Worrell:

DW>> Send strong complaints to "postmaster@".
DW>> I've never been bothered twice by the same people.

CJ>         I'd been sending a "Keep your spam in your kitchen" to the
CJ>  sender.

I send those too. If I'm especially ticked off, I've got a UUENCODED 600k
file that I send 'em, along with a promise to send more if they send me
any more spam. I changed a few of the characters, so the file is completely
worthless. If they have a direct internet connection, it doesn't really
bother them that much; if, however, they use dial-up, it gets damn annoying
for the sorry-assed little bastards.

CJ>         There seems to be a welcome trend among some ISPs having
CJ>  their commercial accounts carry a boiler-plate to the effect of
CJ>  "If you don't want to receive unsolicted ads from this site, send
CJ>  a null message back with "Cancel" in the subject line to this
CJ>  address."  Not as good as not having the unsolicted ads in the
CJ>  first place--even if every ISP did this, how many ISPs are
CJ>  there?--but a step in the right direction.

Indeed. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the recipient, though, to
prevent junk email.

DW>> Are you familiar with PGP, the encryption program? The author has
DW>> incorporated now, and PGP Inc will soon be releasing
DW>> pgpcookie.cutter. If the press release can be believed, it will
DW>> selectively block "cookies."

CJ>         I have a copy of PGP, haven't gotten around to playing with
CJ>  it yet.
CJ>         May what's-his-name make a mint off it--and he just might
CJ>  for this needed product.  BTW, thanks for posting the URL elsewhere.

No problem. You don't need PGP to use the cookie cutter (but then I'm sure
you know that if you checked the URL).

DW>> In the meantime, "cookies" are just files on your hard drive. If
DW>> you don't want the guys at MSNBC to know you've been visiting gay
DW>> porn sites, just delete all the "cookies" manually before
DW>> visiting MSNBC's site.

CJ>         Wouldn't that require exiting out of your browser (and
CJ>  maybe your net connection) first?  What a pain.

Exiting your browser, yes. Not your net connection, though.

Netscape 3 has a check box somewhere in all those option menus to warn you
before a cookie is placed on your system, and allow you to refuse it. If
you turn this option on, you'll be amazed at how many cookies are floating
around out there.

CJ>>> Speaking of which:  there doesn't seem to be any FIDO
CJ>>> messages that have arrived in the past 24 hours or so.  Having

DW>> The same thing happened here.

CJ>         Lucky for you, your board's FIDO connection stayed back up.

And unlucky for the Todds.

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Stupid Staal Fiascoes
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:58:04
EID:73ea 22300f40
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dd8bc1
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32dd5c1d
PID: GED3 2.5
15 Jan 97 22:37, Dan Ceppa wrote to David Worrell:

DC> BTW, there was someone "marketing" a compression file that
DC> claimed 98% or so compression.  IIRC, it turned your file
DC> into a zero-length or short one-line file.  I'm wondering
DC> how many people attempted to use it before checking it out...

Lossless fractal compression? Yeah, it's bullshit. Fractal compression can
get some damn impressive compression ratios, but it is far from lossless.
It's fine for graphic images, but completely useless for executables, data
files, and that kind of thing.

The program you are referring to copied the file being "compressed" to a
hidden file, then created a short file with a few nonsense characters as
the new, compressed file. When you ran the decompression, it simply copied
the hidden file back to the original file name.

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Indians
|Date: 16 Jan 97  02:02:29
EID:af6b 22301040
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dd8cac
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32dd6fcf
PID: GED3 2.5
16 Jan 97 00:01, Dan Ceppa wrote to David Worrell:

DC> As a member of a minority group myself, and not the "correct
DC> minority", I have not a single qualm about making fun of the
DC> "PC Minorities".

I have no qualms about "making fun" of anyone, if I feel the circumstances
warrant it. I wouldn't really call what I do "making fun," though. "Trolling"
isn't even exactly right, but is close enough for jack-booted thug work.

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Paul Davis
|Sub:  2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 16 Jan 97  02:04:51
EID:dbc8 22301080
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dd8d08
REPLY: 2:250/366.22 32da183d
PID: GED3 2.5
13 Jan 97 05:10, Paul Davis wrote to David Worrell:

GP>>> Now, I know I am empathic, but I've never seen that as a
GP>>> 'mystical' thing.  The more I look at it, the more I am inclined
GP>>> to believe it is merely hypersensitivity to body language and
GP>>> smell.  I think I "smell" a person getting angry or sad, not
GP>>> that I mystically "sense" it.

DW>> Have you any more evidence to support your belief than do those
DW>> who claim it is some "mystical" thing? If not, you're just as
DW>> full of shit as they are.

PD> There is a whole body of evidence to support the claim that the
PD> body/mind picks up a lot more information than we consciously
PD> acknowledge.

Of course there is. I'm asking her for evidence to support her beliefs,
though.

PD> Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?

You'll just have to guess.

---
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|From: David Worrell
|To:   Domino
|Sub:  Christ-Like
|Date: 16 Jan 97  02:07:36
EID:073a 223010e0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32dd8d8e
REPLY: 1:123/531.0 2dd027f4
PID: GED3 2.5
15 Jan 97 11:38, Domino wrote to David Worrell:

DW>>> I walk up to you in an alley, pull a gun, and say "your
DW>>> money or your life." You would have no problem with this?
D>> I'd probably have a major problem with that,
DW>> Why? I haven't taken your "free will" away, after all.

D> No, you havent. But I dont know a single person who wouldn't have a
D> problem with having a loaded gun pulled on them.

Why? Me employing a loaded gun does nothing to take away your free will,
right? What's the problem?

---
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 15 Jan 97  18:27:00
EID:a2f1 222f9360
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a0a60d91
DC>-> On 07 Jan 97  11:41:03, Tiger Eyes got back to J.J.Hitt

DC> TE> Listen to the voices of the Indian
DC> TE> nations 

DC>Yep, around here, they are all bickering over who gets to 
DC>sell off all the clams, net the salmon rivers and build the 
DC>biggest gambling casinos.  

With the group here it's yet more casinos, and fighting over the war
drum.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Some people are, thru no fault of their own, sane.


--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  Holysmoke convention
|Date: 15 Jan 97  18:27:00
EID:ace2 222f9360
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 257a6082
FR>KW> Or team up with others of us who cant stand to sleep in nightclothes!
FR>DM>    Ah, that would be me.
FR>DM>    (Lucky me!)

FR>kw> Well, that'll make three (four?  I assume that Glen will
FR>kw> be there, too) in the clothing optional room. 

FR>We're going to find out just how many naked pagans can fit in a Las Vegas
FR>hotel room.  Cool.

We'll admit naked atheists, too. ;)

---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Sometimes being a bitch is all a woman has to hold on to.


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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Starfire
|Sub:  Holysmoke convention
|Date: 15 Jan 97  18:27:00
EID:02e3 222f9360
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2569f4d4
S>DM> KW>> Or team up with others of us who cant stand to sleep in
S>DM> KW>> nightclothes!

S>DM>> Ah, that would be me.

S>DM>> (Lucky me!)

S>KW> Well, that'll make three (four?  I assume that Glen will be there,
too)
S>KW> in the clothing optional room. 

S>Or five if the Gwenny {my mama} decides to take me along as a body guard.{G}

We'll put you on door guard--can't have the xtians crashing the party,
you know.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Sort of the Furthest, the Sum, and the Holy Yogurt?-RS

--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  spam me big boy!
|Date: 15 Jan 97  18:27:00
EID:edeb 222f9360
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3800e948
CJ> KW> That is what is unforgivable, in their eyes.  You notice that Ken
seems
CJ> KW> to have taken out of here with his weeny tail between his legs.

CJ> KW>   What ever did happen to that bear?  Or did the Bear run
off
CJ> KW> with Ken?

CJ>        He's still ranting in R-RELIGION (and I'm still unable to
CJ> post there).  Among his latest hobby-horses are about AIDS being
CJ> God's punishment on homosexuals (yawn; he's getting predictably
CJ> torn apart there, albeit in a more polite fashion than here) and
CJ> his contention that such movies as _Silence of the Lambs_, the
CJ> Star Wars and Star Trek series, and _Jesus Christ Superstar_ are
CJ> attacks on Christianity.

  Would you mind telling me just how he justifies that one?
Unless, of course, he's drawing imaginary parallels between Hannibal the
Cannibal and xtiany.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Streakers repent!! Your end is in sight!


--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To:   John Musselwhite
|Sub:  Water and Flood (b).
|Date: 16 Jan 97  06:48:54
EID:f35e 22303600
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0d86f
Hi John,
(Re: yours of 31-Dec-1996, "Water and Flood (b).")

JM>  On 25 Dec 96, Laurie Appleton penned the following to David Rice

LA> the Alpine glaciers are less than 4000 years old. Professor


JM>  Which "Alpine"? The Alps themselves? What about the Rockies or
JM>   are they merely "alpine"? What has been learned about
JM>   glaciology in the last 50 years, Laurie... any idea?

Clearly you need MORE of what Velikovsky said, before you
can get it into perspective. Here then is the previous page
and perhaps that will help!


"The recent expedition of the Oceanographic Institute
at Goteborg, under H. Pettersson, which covered the
Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian oceans, found, according to
its leader, evidences of great catastrophes that have altered
the face of the earth."

"He speaks of "climatic catastrophes," and of
"tectonic catastrophes [that] raised or lowered the ocean
bottom hundreds and even thousands of feet, spreading huge
tidal waves which destroyed plant and animal life on the
coastal plains." At many places "a lava bed of geologically
recent origin [was] covered only by a thin veneer of
sediment."

"He discovered that the Pacific and Indian ocean beds
consist "largely of volcanic ash that had settled on the
bottom after great volcanic explosions." He also found a
large nickel content in the clay of the ocean bottoms, and
decided that this abysmal nickel must have been of meteoric
origin. Consequently, he concludes, there were "very heavy
showers of meteors," "The principal difficulty of this
explanation is that it requires a rate of accretion of
meteoric dust several hundred times greater than that which
astronomers .... are presently prepared to admit."(6)

"Professor Ewing of Columbia University carried on his
investigation in the Atlantic. In 1949 he published his
results, and, like Pettersson, he found that lava spread only
recently on the bottom of the ocean. He also came upon signs
of land deep on the bottom of the ocean and concluded:
"Either the land must have sunk two to three miles, or the
sea once must have been two or three miles lower than now.
Either conclusion is startling."

"The pollen analysis, made by various scientists, of the
bottom of the North Sea, between Germany, England, Scotland,
and Norway, convinced researchers that this sea in its
present shape originated only very recently - in the
Subboreal, the date of 1500 before the present era often
being selected. At that time there occurred a Klimasturz.
Once there had been a sea; then it was covered by debris
carried from the mountains of Norway; later, in a
catastrophic advance, the North Sea was formed once more.
Human artifacts have been found from the time when the North
Sea was land."

"The investigation of the delta formation of the Bear
River (on the Alaskan border), very carefully made by Hanson,
showed that "at the present rate of sedimentation the delta
is estimated to be only 3600 years old," A. de Lapparent, the
leading French geologist of the beginning of the century,
calculated that, since the time the Rhone glacier started to
melt, less than 3000 years have passed."

---------------------------------
6 H. Pettersson, "Exploring the Ocean Floor," Scientific
American, August 1950.
---------------------------------
(Earth in Upheaval, Immanuel Velikovsky, p. 248)

Laurie

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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To:   John Musselwhite
|Sub:  Water and Flood (b)1.
|Date: 16 Jan 97  06:49:40
EID:d4fa 22303620
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0d8d1
Hi John,
(Re: yours of 31-Dec-1996, "Water and Flood (b).")

JM>  On 25 Dec 96, Laurie Appleton penned the following to David Rice

LA> Flint of Yale refers to the redetermination of the age of the
LA> Upper Great Gorge of Niagara Falls and writes (1947): "The age
LA> of the Upper Great Gorge is calculated as somewhat more than
LA> four thousand years - and to obtain even this [low] figure we
LA> have to assume that the rate of recession has been constant,
LA> although we know that discharge has in fact varied greatly
LA> during post-glacial times."(7)

JM>     The age of the Falls has been determined through more
JM> accurate means than they had in 1947 and placed at about 10
JM> thousand years, not four thousand as Velikovsky indicates.

Then do tell me what that method was John, or don't you
know. It is interesting to learn that Charles Lyell's
original 35,000 years is now debunked!

JM>     I might add that this is yet another place which I have
JM> been fortunate enough to visit and learn about rather than
JM> depending on tracts or sensational literature for my
JM> knowledge.

So just WHAT did you see there John that satisfied you
beyond reasonable doubt that their "age" was 10,000 years
rather than 4,000 years?

LA>     These researches, unknown to me when I
LA> wrote Worlds in Collision, coincide completely with my
LA> conclusions and their dating."

JM>   Too bad he was wrong, Laurie... again.

Are you over looking the fact that evolutionists are
nearly ALWAYS wrong about just about everything anyway and
after all Velikovsky was a confirmed evolutionist himself,
even if he was well ahead of many other evolutionists in
exposing the absurdities of the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis!

Laurie

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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  A Man and a Cat.
|Date: 16 Jan 97  06:50:44
EID:3c10 22303640
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0d95a
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 03-Jan-1997, "A Man and a Cat.")

LA> So long as you wish to send me your abusive messages, I
LA> guess I will just do my best to send back some information

DC>  No information that you send has any value.  In the first
DC> place, it comes from you.  More importantly, it comes from
DC> your not only tainted but putrid sources.

Judging by your persistence in leaving me messages I
conclude that you are not telling the truth. You seem to
simply "love" getting some of the information that your
betters chose not to give you. So here we go again;

"Scientific theory is a matter of the highest degree
of probability based on the data available. There are no
absolutes in it. Further- more, science is a train that is
constantly moving. Yesterday's generalization is today's
discarded hypothesis."

"This is one reason for being somewhat tentative about
accepting any form of evolutionary theory as the final
explanation of biology. It is also why it is dangerous to
try to prove the Bible by science. If the Bible becomes
wedded to today's scientific theories, what will happen to
it when science, ten years from now, has shifted?"

"Theologian W.A. Criswell cites: "In 1861 . . . the
French Academy of Science published a little brochure in
which they stated fifty-one scientific facts that
controverted the Word of God. Today there is not a scientist
in the world who believes a single one of those fifty one
so-called scientific facts that in 1861 were published as
controverting the Word of God. Not a one!" (10)

"Thoughtful evolutionists concede that the matter is
not an open-and-shut-case, but they feel the theory must be
accepted despite some seeming contradictions and unexplained
factors."

"The following is of such interest that I quote it at
length to illustrate this point. After discussing how
pathetically theology students as Cambridge, in a former
century, accepted dogma and teachings they did not fully
understand or personally investigate, G.A. Kerkut, an
evolutionist, points out that many present-day
undergraduates have succumbed to the same unthinking
tendencies in their studies in general, and in accepting
evolution in biology in particular. He writes:"

"For some years now I have tutored undergraduates on various
aspects of biology. It is quite Common, during the course of
conversation, to ask the student if he knows the evidence for
evolution. This usually evokes a faintly superior smile.
. ."

"Well, sir, there is the evidence from paleontology,
comparative anatomy, embryology, systematics and
geographical distribution."

(Quoted from, "Know Why You Believe", Paul Little, 1988,
p.123)

Did you like that? Wanna see the next page?

Laurie

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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Flat-Earthers.
|Date: 16 Jan 97  06:51:20
EID:359e 22303660
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0d9aa
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 03-Jan-1997, "Flat-earthers.")

LA> Perhaps you have a similar problem to that admitted by
LA> Aldous Huxley? See what you think eh?

DC>  I think you have a problem with meglomania and a very
DC> strong tendancy to a marty complex.  Seek help.

Obviously you are DESPERATE to receive messages no matter
what, otherwise why do you write to a person such as you try
to describe me. So anyway here is part 2 of your story;



"Do you think that the evolutionary theory is the best
explanation yet advanced to explain animal interrelationships?" I
would ask.

"Why, of course, sir," would be the reply. "There is nothing
else. except for the religious explanation held by some
fundamentalist Christians, and I gather, sir, that these views are
no longer held by the more up-to-date churchmen."

"So you believe in evolution because there is no other theory?

"Oh, no, sir, I believe in it Because of the evidence I just
mentioned."

"Have You read any book on the evidence for evolution?" I would
ask.

"Yes, sir." And here he would mention the names of authors
of a popular school textbook. "And of course sir, there is that
book of Darwin, The Origin of Species."

"Have you read this book?" I would ask.

"Well, not all through, sir."

"The first fifty pages?"

"Yes, sir. about that much; maybe a bit less."

"I see. And that has given you your firm understanding of
evolution?"

"Yes, sir,"

"Well, now, if you really understand an argument you will be able
to indicate to me not only the points in favor of the argument, but
also the most telling points against it."

"I suppose so, sir."

"Good. Please tell me, then, some of the evidence against theory
of evolution."

"But there isn't any, sir."

Here the conversation would take on a more strained atmosphere.
The student would look at me as if I were playing a very unfair game
(Know Why You Believe, Paul Little, 1988, p. 124)

So how about that? What about the next episode?

Laurie

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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Velikovsky.
|Date: 16 Jan 97  06:51:50
EID:043a 22303660
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0d9e5
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 03-Jan-1997, "Velikovsky.")

LA> Funny thing is that I did not notice any attempt at
LA> humour by Velikovsky in any of his books. Perhaps you have

DC>    Virtually each and every hypothesis he makes is
DC> laughable.  That you believe him, makes you an idiot.

Clearly you don't know what you are talking about. Why
would the following have taken place if there an atom of
rationality in your statement?

"In February 1974, at a symposium of the American
Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), in a
trying seven-hour debate, Velikovsky faced a critical panel
determined to prove him wrong. He delivered a vigorous,
cogent defence of his position. When he concluded, a large
audience of AAAS members and guests gave him a prolonged
standing ovation.

(When the Sky Rained Fire, Reader's Digest, February, 1976,
p.169)

Laurie

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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Fakes, Frauds and Scams.
|Date: 16 Jan 97  06:52:40
EID:5afc 22303680
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0da52
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 03-Jan-1997, "Fakes, Frauds and Scams.")

LA> Perhaps you need to know the story of the Channeled
LA> Scablands as told by dear old S.J. Gould. Here is some bits

DC>   Perhaps you should try reading the book and
DC> understanding it before you attempt to quote from what you
DC> don't know.  It would, of course, be a first on your part to
DC> do so.

My my my! Your indoctrination has been very thorough
hasn't it? So here is something else for you. A leading
evolutionist wrote that;


"One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary
view, or let's call it a non-evolutionary view, was last year I
had a sudden realization for over twenty years I had thought I
was working on evolution in  some way."

"One morning I woke up and something had happened in the
night, and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff
for twenty years and there was not one thing I knew about it.
That's quite a shock to learn that one can be so misled so
long."

"Either there was something wrong with me or there was
something wrong with evolutionary theory. Naturally, I know
there is nothing wrong with me, so for the last few weeks I've
tried putting a simple question to various people and groups of
people.

"Question is: Can you tell me anything you know about
evolution, any one thing, any one thing that is true?"

"I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field
Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was
silence."

"I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology
Seminar in the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body
of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long
time and eventually one person said, "I do know one thing ---
it ought not to be taught in high school"."

(Dr Colin Patterson (Senior Palaeontologist, British Museum of
Natural History, London). Keynote address at the American
Museum of Natural History, New York City, 5 November 1981.)

So what answer would you have given to that evolutionist,
when no one else could do so?

Laurie

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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  Darrow Nonsense (b).
|Date: 16 Jan 97  06:53:18
EID:8240 223036a0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 88c0daa6
Hi Dan,
(Re: yours of 05-Jan-1997, "Darrow Nonsense (b).")

LA> What a shame for Darrow that NO TEST ever made for
LA> evolution has ever confirmed it! It has FAILED every test

DC>  Get back to me when your thinking passes the 17th century
DC> mark.

Hell, that would be much too advanced for you! However I
will keep trying to help you and deprogram you from the
delusions from which you appear to be suffering. Here wadda
yer think of this from a red hot evolutionist?


"There was little doubt that the star intellectual
turn of last week's British Association for the Advancement
of Science meeting in Salford was Dr John Durant, a
youthful lecturer from University College Swansea. Giving
the Darwin lecture to one of the biggest audiences of the
week, Durant put forward an audacious theory --- that
Darwin's evolutionary explanation of the orgins of man
has been transformed into a modern myth, to the detriment
of science and social progess."......

Durant concludes that the secular myths of evolution
have had "a damaging effect on scientific research",
leading to "distortion, to needless controversy, and
to the gross misuse of science"."

(Dr John Durant (University College Swansea, Wales), as
quoted in "How evolution became a scientific myth",New
Scientist, 11 September 1980, p.765.)

Now wasn't that a stomach full that those evolutionists
would have found hard to digest?

Laurie

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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To:   Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub:  What???
|Date: 15 Jan 97  17:41:15
EID:d269 222f8d20
MSGID: 1:352/666 32DD7C12
MM> go blank... what's the sdsmcom stand for???

GP> Something like "scaring the dogs and spilling my coffee. . .I don't

GP> remember for sure.

Ah, must be "scaring the dog, spilling my coffee on myself"  OK, that would
work.  Take care.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 ** Le Maison De Metal * 360-493-0798 * Olympia, WA. **
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   GWENNY THE POOH
|Sub:  More Toddlings, News at 1
|Date: 14 Jan 97  14:42:00
EID:b5d8 222e7540
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to All <=-

GTP> Hey, folks.   My daughters now have points and
GTP> will be joining us in the fray. Let's have a
GTP> hearty welcome for Stephanie (aka TigerEyes)
GTP> and Suzanne (aka Starfire). 

Once again proving the Fundamentalists wrong when they
assert this isn't a family echo!

GTP> (Now we outnumber the Rices, even with the new
GTP> brother. Neenerneener)

"Be afraid. Be very afraid." -- Marty

... Ever notice that there's no "Institute for Evolution Research"?
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   AL SCHROEDER
|Sub:  More grist from the web
|Date: 15 Jan 97  08:59:00
EID:1d51 222f4760
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to David Rice <=-

>>>AS> An excellent point! But then, if one chooses not to
>>>AS> live a morally upright life, and not to ask for
>>>AS> God[sic]'s forgiveness, what would you do with
>>>AS> them?

>DR> There's so many flaws in the above assertion one
>DR> is hard-pressed to know which to tackle first.

AS> I'm sure you will think of something.

>DR> 1) How can one ask the gods for forgiveness? Does
>DR> not all evidence point to their nonsexistance,
>DR> irrelevance, and appathy in human affairs?

AS> The constants. People dying for saying they saw Jesus 
AS> on the cross, saw Him[sic] die, and rise again...for
AS> us.

You mean just like Elvis, Horus, Krishna, etc. Just how
often do you ask the other sacrificed gods for "forgiveness?"
There's at least 15 sons of god who were crucified BEFORE
your favorate son of god.

>DR> 2) Who in the goddamn hell granted these gods of
>DR> Al's the right to grant forgiveness? Is not that
>DR> the right of those whom one harms, and NOT the
>DR> rights of the gods?

AS> Define "right".

"Conforming with or conformable to justice, law, or 
morality."

AS> Then justify your definition. And then try to figure 
AS> that out without an absolute frame of reference.

A "absolute frame of reference" is unnecessary, which is
a good thing since there is no such thing. If you have
any such thing, please present it.

AS> Many have tried to build an ethos without a God[sic]. 
AS> It all comes down to "because it's RIGHT, dammit!"

And for some reason Fundamentalist theists (of all cults) 
fail to understand the fact that "right and wrong" is both 
wired in (nature) and socialized (nurture). By all 
accounts; by all observed instances, no gods are required. 
Indeed, this is demonstrated by the fact that devout 
believers in "absolute frames of reference" (i.e. a god or 
gods) have demonstrated, with much butchery, mayhem, 
blood, rape, plunder, and pillage, that such a belief tends
to eradicate their innate sense of what is right and wrong.
It has ALWAYS been those who believed in an "absolute frame
of reference" who have commited the worst evils in the world, 
"simply" because they ignored their innate sense of right
and instead embraced an external, i.e. false, one, i.e. 
gods. What tyrant has NOT been utterly convinced of their
right to enact their tyrany?

AS> They are justifying after the fact. But the 
AS> justification for what is right and what is wrong is 
AS> elusive... unless there is someone who decides what is 
AS> right and what is wrong, the same way the maker of the 
AS> game of Monopoly decided what moves are "legal" and
AS> which are cheating.

Er, Al, that's exactly what I said and exactly what you 
objected to. There =ARE= "someone who decides what is 
right and what is wrong." It's called genetics (nature)
and socialization (nurture).

AS> Philosophers litter the bookshelves trying to do a 
AS> nontheistic basis for good and bad... right and wrong.
AS> But they are all justifying what we already KNOW deep
AS> down, in many instances.

EXACTLY. No gods required.

Now then; you ignored the question. Who gave your gods the 
right to grant "forgiveness?" Isn't that the venue of those
who have been injured?

>DR> 3a) Since "a morally upright life" is defined by
>DR> the society one lives in, in the time one finds
>DR> oneself, what is considered "moral" changes.

AS> Does not necessarily apply.

It always has. Always. As in =ALWAYS.= There has never 
been a time or place where humanity itself did not define 
what is and is not "right" and "wrong." These definitions, 
from one society to the next, nearly always contain some 
of the same ideas about "right" and "wrong" (nature) but 
they nearly always contain radically different concepts 
(nurture).

AS> If there is an eternal God[sic],

Why posit imaginary super-pals? Isn't part of adulthood 
and maturity the inclusion of growing out of such fantasies
and make-believe?

AS> His[sic] standards do not change, although He[sic] may 
AS> alter them to suit the stage of developement WE are in
AS> as a society. As my rules for my ten year old will be 
AS> different from any rules I might give him when he is 
AS> seventeen. I haven't changed. He will.

#1) You aren't an "absolute frame of regerence" with 
regards to what is "right" and "wrong."

#2) You exist; by every account known to humanity,
gods do not appear to exist.

#3) Our society grants you the right to dictate to your
offsprind what is "right" and "wrong." There is no such
parallel for your gods.

>DR> 3b) Morality has nothing to do with gods: Al's or
>DR> anyone's.

AS> On the contrary, I think it has everything to do with 
AS> it; not religion. 

That is obvious, though you BELIEVE it: you don't "think" 
it. (Demonstrate me wrong and produce your gods and their
"absolute frame of reference").

AS> Atheists can be as moral as anyone else. But God[sic]? 
AS> Yes. If we are created by a Being[sic] concerned with 
AS> morality, our highest aspirations may reflect that 
AS> morality... however seldom we reach it in fact.

"If" this and "if" that. Why play make-believe?

>DR> Don't you want to believe that your betters will be 
>DR> punished forever?! Don't you want your resentment and 
>DR> frustration in life (due to your mediocre, rather
>DR> inferior and pathetic life) revenged upon those who
>DR> are better, happier, and more fulfileld than you?!
>DR> That's what Christianity is all about, after all.

AS> I don't think so. I don't think Martin Luther King 
AS> thought so either. To name just one.

That only demonstrates the fact that he knew a potent tool 
(religion) when he saw it.

Now then, to reposit some questions:

1) What gave your gods the right to forgive people? Isn't 
that the right granted to the victims?

2) If there is a "absolute frame of reference" for what is 
considered "right" and "wrong," why is it that not only 
does every civilization differs, sometimes drastically, 
but each civilization's concepts of "absolute frame of 
reference" differ with time, also sometimes drastically?

3) What is this "absolute frame of reference?" Please
produce it =NOW.= Thank you.

4) Have you read Robert Green Ingersol's speach on why
nontheists are moral and ethical, even thought they lack
belief in the gods? If not, would you like to? If so,
shall I send a copy to you? If so, what is your email
address?


... Plants need animals like they need a hole in the apical meristem.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   JIM STAAL
|Sub:  Why do you NEED to be sav
|Date: 15 Jan 97  09:22:00
EID:da9c 222f4ac0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-

>DR> ... Good news: it's "KILL JIM STAAL FOR JESUS" Week
>DR> here at HolySmoke!

JS> Oh, no-o-o-o-o-o! Not again!

It seems to occur three or four times a year. I dunno.

P.S. Your name is plastered on all of my boat's windows.
It's damn anoying---- I'm thinking about replacing them
just to get rid of the tiny, in-the-corner etched-in
word. Sheeeish.

... Science invites inquiry. God dies from that activity.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub:  False Christian Scum
|Date: 15 Jan 97  09:24:00
EID:ea91 222f4b00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Robert Curry <=-

>RC> Indeed. And thus I can say that the Tooth Fairy
>RC> does exist. Can't you? Have you never been the
>RC> Tooth Fairy?

Just walk down Hollywood Blvd at night....

JB> I have never been the Tooth fairy.

Quantum physics demonstrates that there is a Tooth
Fairy, and that there is only one. Don't blame me if
you don't understand the math that proves it.

... Marriage is like a novel, except the hero dies right away.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   JIM STAAL
|Sub:  Literally Seaking
|Date: 15 Jan 97  10:17:00
EID:ebfd 222f5220
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-

>DR> By the way, the "first person" is nonsense: individuals
>DR> do not evolve---- populations do. The first humans were
>DR> a population of females and males.

JS> We agree. The first persons _were_ male and female.

Your "English major" needs to be improved upon. The
above should read "The first people were males and
females."

... "Those 'facts' are meaningless to me. I live by faith." -- Jim Staal
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   JIM STAAL
|Sub:  Well, women?
|Date: 15 Jan 97  10:19:00
EID:a1df 222f5260
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-

>DR> I have a theory about this in general (not Mister Staal
>DR> particular), i.e. men who hate women.

JS> David, you wound me. I don't hate women. I respect and
JS> appreciate them in general, and the Lovely Wilbur [tm]
JS> in particular. As my temp career in retail winds to a
JS> close, I have learned much about the fairer sex, having
JS> worked with them on a daily basis (and learned from them

Many messages from you in this forum seem to imply some
animosity, frustration, and perhaps even rage at women.

JS> BTW, when does your seafaring experiment begin?

Last September. :-) That's when I purchased the boat. I
shove off in the first or second week of April, 1997CE.

... >>> Pardon my driving: I'm trying to reload <<<
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   FREDRIC RICE
|Sub:  Mustard Bath!
|Date: 15 Jan 97  10:38:00
EID:8898 222f54c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to David Rice <=-

FR> What did you pay for the 115vac inverter?

The 120 watt one cost about US$60.00 at West Marine.
I then purchased a 300 watt one for about US$180.00
and gave the first one to Lyndette.

FR> I wonder what the inverter would do to the battery.

Drain it utterly.


... 14th Rule of Creationism: no evidence? Quote "authorities!"
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   FREDRIC RICE
|Sub:  Mustard Bath! #2
|Date: 15 Jan 97  11:14:00
EID:c07e 222f59c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to David Rice <=-

FR> What did you pay for the 115vac inverter?

Addressed previously. :-) If I'd thought about it I would 
have given to you my old one. The 300 watt inverter to
to run my computer.

FR> I wonder what the inverter would do to the battery.

One may buy interters that produce 2000 watts, but the 
greater the watt ratting, the more amps the battery bank 
needs to deliver. The battery in my boat is a "starting" 
battery, which means it will deliver a very lare amount of 
amps over the span of 30 or 40 seconds. The greater the 
discharge, the more damage to the battery; the more often 
it is discharged, the more damage. Starter batteries can 
be cycled from fully charged to nearly drained only a
few scores of times (40 or 50) before beeding replaced.

For my inverter, I want two deep-cycle batteries. These
batteries have a charge/discharge cycle lifetime in the
hundreds. Since my boat's engine is small and since it
does not have to start in very cold temperatures, the
deep-cycle batteries will start the engine without any
problem, but they will give me constant amps over long
periods of time before needing to recharge.

Just how I'm going to recharge is the problem. A wind
turbine costs US$800 from West Marine: buying the hardwear 
to mount it costs as well. Solar panels are too large.

Since your boat is motorized, your engine runs much longer 
than a sail boat's. That's why a "starter" battery is find 
for your boat. If you want house lighting, you'll want a 
deep-cycle battery and a battery charger that is regulated 
at 14.4 volts and will shut itself down once the battery 
is fully charged. The extra two volts is because batteries 
resist charge.

FR> We didn't have power for three days here at the house 
FR> so I pulled the boat battery out and put it in my
FR> living room.  I wired a car headlight to it for light
FR> at night and we invited people and children over for
FR> popcord, coffee, and the mystery radio tapes you gave
FR> me.  I had the only house with electric light strong
FR> enough to read with -- every other house was totally
FR> dark or had flickering candle light. Afterwards the
FR> power came back and I put the battery back into the
FR> boat -- it fired right up, even after running the
FR> lights for untold hours.

Yeah, I heard you have 70 MPH winds up there. I only
had to ride out 50 MPH winds with 65 MPH gusts. Even
under bare poles my boat was heeling so sharply that
when I woke up at night I thought I was sinking.

FR> Do you have a continuity tester?  That would have 
FR> helped pick apart the wires. And it's a Real Good
FR> Thing that you've decided to do things right the
FR> third time.

I almost wished the pump into the corn field. Or by-
the-board (over the side, Davy's Locker).


... Kali loves me, this I know, for the Vedas tell me so!
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   MIMI MILSTEIN
|Sub:  True Folk
|Date: 15 Jan 97  11:43:00
EID:a135 222f5d60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Mimi Milstein to David Rice <=-

>MM> I think all the sheet music only carries the German 
>MM> words, as custom demands The Rings to be performed
>MM> in the original.

I wouldn't dream of vulgarizing a performance of Der Ring 
in English.  :-)  My desire was to know enough about the
piece in English so I could follow along during 
performance.

MM> I do, however, have translations of the libretto to 
MM> both English and French. A 200 page book was included
MM> with the complete record set of The Ring, conducted
MM> by Herbert von Karajan, by Deutsche Grammophon.

Cool! Stuck up your hands and hand it over!  :-)

MM> The 19-LP record set is numbered "2720 051" and 
MM> carries no further bibliographic information - but
MM> I bought it more than 30 years ago so that should
MM> place it somewhere in the 50es or 60es (perhaps
MM> the "051" is the actual year).
MM>
MM> The book (without even a copyright year) mentions the 
MM> English translators as Lionel Salter and Willian Mann - 
MM> probably Brits, as the present translation is derived
MM> from William Mann's 'Complete English version of The
MM> Ring made at the request of Friends of the Covent
MM> Garden'.
MM>
MM> So there, Deutsche Grammophon, Salter, and Mann should 
MM> get you going in a library search :-)

I thank you 1812 times! I'll go a'hunting. You have proved 
yet once again how educational, enlightening, and 
spiritually fulfilling HOLYSMOKE is!

As it happened I was at Boarder's Records and Books five 
days ago and I asked the music salesperson if he "had The 
Ring from Wagnar." He went looking for the title under "V" 
and didn't find anything. I didn't know he thumbed through 
the "V" section because he was right next to the "W" 
section at the time. :-) I found a fugue or two, a dirge, 
a romantic or two, "Tannha:user," but no "Der Ring des 
Nibelungen." I wonder if Woden knows Boarders' doesn't
carry him. :-)


... Nothing is wrong with you that reincarnation can't cure.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub:  Gnat and abortion
|Date: 15 Jan 97  14:21:00
EID:b899 222f72a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to All <=-


>NC> I posted some information, studies are just begining 
>NC> in the area abortion and breast cancer.

Bull dung.

>NC> this[sic] should at the very least be "discussed" 
>NC> along with any other topic... but the high IQ folks
>NC> like yourself are so afraid that there may be side
>NC> affects to abortion you all run like a bunch of
>NC> scared rabbits.

Ah. The old have-you-ceased-beating-your-spouse trick.

JB> In the most recent New England Journal of Medicine (it 
JB> may have the word American in there somewhere but I'm
JB> not sure.) there is an article on the ACTUAL research
JB> done on this topic.
JB> 
JB> The study was done in Denmark (where, I gather, 
JB> abortion has always been legal) on 1.5 million women
JB> born between 1935 and 1970, on the correlation of
JB> abortion to increased risk of breast cancer.
JB> 
JB> Data was collected from data bases and the women's
JB> actual medical records rather than relying on
JB> interview data. One and a half million is a large
JB> number, especially for a country the size of Denmark.
JB> The study was homogeneous in that all the women were
JB> Danish citizens and it was controlled for outside
JB> factors. (Although I can't cite which and how... I
JB> have only read a precis and not the actual article.)
JB> 
JB> The findings were surprising...absolutely NO difference
JB> in the incidence of breast cancer in those who had had 
JB> abortions. NONE, nada, zip, zilch. The numbers held
JB> across the board.
JB> 
JB> To the gnat... what's next now that this has been 
JB> DEFINITELY blown out of the water? I know! How about
JB> the correlation of men who father babies who get
JB> aborted and the incidence of impotence? (Makes as
JB> much sense to me as the other.)

Maybe there should be a study concerning male impotency 
and Fundamentalism.


... Nothing fails as much as prayer fails.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  Suck up! Rice Brothers
|Date: 15 Jan 97  14:47:00
EID:1821 222f75e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Ed Mills <=-

>>FR> Imagine 10,000 caltrops dumped out the back of a 
>>FR> pick-up on a 10-mile long section of public-land
>>FR> logging road.

"The Monkeywrench Gang." Good book.

>EM> I shall, if you'll apprise me of what a caltrop is.

DW> Have you ever played jacks? Imagine a large jack with 
DW> pointed ends. Notice how now matter how you throw it
DW> down, it always lands with one point sticking up.

Would be anoying during rush hour.

DW> Caltrops were invented to deal with horse cavalry. 
DW> They also work rather well against wheeled vehicles.

Joshua Slocum used carpet tacts scattered on his deck
to keep the (barefooted) natives from coming aboard
and slitting his throat.

DW> Oddly enough, I've seen several WWII era tank 
DW> obstacles that look like caltrops, although I can't 
DW> imagine someone throwing out a handful of 30 ton
DW> cement jacks.

These were probably also used on beaches to slow down
amphibious landing vehicles.


... Help your L.A. police---- beat up some homosexuals and black people.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  Matt Giwer
|Date: 15 Jan 97  14:56:00
EID:32ec 222f7700
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Worrell to All <=-

DW> Does anyone else here remember Matt Giwer? It seems
DW> he has acheived noteriety on the Internet approaching
DW> that enjoyed by Steve Winter. 
DW> 
DW> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/

I recall the stupid shit well.  :-)  He's the guy who
"quoted" Bill Clinton's views on gun control, but the
quote he attributed to Clinton were in fact spoken
by Adolph Hitler.

... Saviour or Schizophrenic: Which for you? [S/s]
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub:  FAQ!
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:28:00
EID:8098 22303b80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to David Rice <=-

>>DR> watching the show. I found (and find) Loni Anderson very
>>DR> ugly.

MG> You die.

Don't we all?

... Help your L.A. police---- beat up some homosexuals and black people.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub:  WiCCA
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:31:00
EID:ce8e 22303be0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to J.j. Hitt <=-

>>C6> i WAS JUST WONDERiNG iF ANYONE AROUND COULD GiVE ME ANY 
>>C6> ADDRESSES OF GOOD WiCCA/SATANiC STORES iN OR AROUND THE 
>>C6> TORONTO AREA. OR, iF iS WiCCAN OR SATANiC AND WOULD LiKE
>>C6> TO CHAT, POST ME BACK......K?

>JH> All out of Magick Fuck Me Candles?

ML> He was too chicken to buy the pussy candles.

Made out of cat tallow.

... Your charade is wearing thin, Jimbo. Just like your lack of meds. -
DC
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   ROD SWIFT
|Sub:  Forwarded Message
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:45:00
EID:4e65 22303da0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to David Rice <=-

RS> Are we gated to the net now?

We were until my internet service provider changed
NNTP servers. The new server refuses to get the
newsgroup alt.atheism.holysmoke

... "Professional creationists:" ignorant fundies who lie for a living.
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   DAVID WORRELL
|Sub:  J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 16 Jan 97  08:54:00
EID:0f5d 223046c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Starfire <=-

>>JJH> You mean those ignorant shits who never invented
>>JJH> the wheel? Or a written language?

>S> But better than the ignorant Shits who did invent
>S> the wheel and nearly destroyed the world in the
>S> process.

DW> Which ignorant Shits[sic] would those be?
DW> As far as I'm aware, no one has even come close to
DW> destroying the world. 

Xemu / Xenu didn't even come close, and he was dropping
atom bombs from DC-8s on Earth 75,000,000 years ago! It
would take a great deal of effort to destroy Earth.

Destroying all life on Earth would be much easier.

... "Be fuckers and multiply...." -- Genesis 1:22 (paraphrased)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   ANDREW MASTEN
|Sub:  Andy's on the ropes
|Date: 16 Jan 97  10:20:00
EID:416e 22305280
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten <=-

AM> Which would lead you more horrified, to find one
AM> of your children being a satanist[sic] or a Christian?

Without a doubt, I'd rather they were Satanists than
Christians, since Satanists tend to be ethical while
Christians tend not to be.

... Political incorrectness on drive C: - (A)bort (R)etry (P)ersecute?
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   ANDREW MASTEN
|Sub:  Anthropic asininities
|Date: 16 Jan 97  10:23:00
EID:1a20 223052e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten <=-

AM> By the way, by your definition, nuetrinos are
AM> non-existant since they leave no evidence.

There is a very large tank of water under the ground
at San Diablo New Mexico that detects and counts
the passage of neutrinos every day. Therefore, they
leave evidence, therefore you're wrong, as usual.

... Religious error:  (A)tone  (R)epent  (K)ill A Non-Christian
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   GWENNY THE POOH
|Sub:  No, really
|Date: 16 Jan 97  11:08:00
EID:2dac 22305900
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to David Rice <=-

>DR> It is inconceivable (pardon the pun) that women
>DR> this day and age would go to a Pagan festival
>DR> to meet men, let alone to "have sex." The "sexual
>DR> revolution" is dead: AIDS nuked it.

GTP> I don't know what the pagan community is like
GTP> where you live (although I've heard that they
GTP> are very yuppy and elitest out there), but here,
GTP> life goes on as usual.

The Pagan community in Orange County, California, does not 
exist. In its stead we have NewAge yuppies who learn what 
is passed off as "Wicca" during high-priced "classes" at 
local NewAge book stores. Any Fundamentalist Wiccan who
observed such vulgar "classes" would poop a brick. I went
to one of these "classes" (as a guest, i.e. free) at the
Visions and Dreams bookstore, and I cannot find anything
nice to say about it.

Some of them thought Starhawk was some kind of divine 
being worthy of worship herself.

GTP> "All acts of love and joy are my sacraments" is a 
GTP> line from the Charge of the Goddess.

There is a Southern California corollary to the Charge of 
the Goddess that excludes the "love" and "joy" bit unless
there is a notorized contract stipulating exact details,
time frames, and legal denials.

GTP> I have not noticed any diminuation of acts of love 
GTP> and joy.

There isn't any in this State. :-)

GTP> In fact, they are still trying to find a way for 
GTP> people to advertise their availability and perferences. 
GTP> Those necklances were cute, two years ago, but no one 
GTP> found out until too late.

I was more-or-less in the group that tried to plan the 
"communication" ribbon or button. Green for "Don't ask;" 
yellow for "straight, please ask;" blue for "homosexual, 
don't ask;" black for "too goddamned old, ask anyhow;" 
etc. etc. etc. At the time I objected because there would 
be so many different colored ribbons to meet every sexual 
preference and inclination. It was "decided" that a simple 
ribbon denoting "I'm safe to talk to about sex; I will 
answer every question politely, friendly, and calmly" 
would suffice.

The "problem" with the approach was that there was no way 
to discuss the issue in depth with the entire community
at Dragonfest. In 1994 I heard it would be at least five
years before the experiment was tried at Dragonfest.

GTP> Evidence of my pov would be
GTP> that there was just a wedding at Samhain of two folks
GTP> who met a Dfest two years ago. . .the same time as
GTP> TigerEyes and Bruce were getting to know each other.

You mean there's a danger of getting married?! Then FORGET 
IT! :-)

GTP> The only thing AIDS has done is force people to be 
GTP> more careful. All the men, for a change, carry condoms
GTP> in hopes of finding a willing female. (Well, most are
GTP> looking for females.)  If no one was having sex,
GTP> why would there need to be a condom cop?

To arrest condoms? I dunno why there's a condom cop. In 
1989 I put two long rolls of condoms on the community 
center board, with a note saying "Alley Cat [that was my 
festival name that year] says 'Be Safe!'" and every day 
after that five or six a day would be gone. I've often 
wondered who took them and why. :-) That was the only time 
I took condoms to Dragonfest (the box of 50 was cheep). I 
handed out the rest at the local women's clinics, to the 
Catholics blocading the doors.

>DR> No one said anything about not wishing to spend time 
>DR> with women.

GTP> And how many women do you know who hang around in 
GTP> your tent?

Non sequitur.

>DR> There is no warning light to tell one the difference. 
>DR> It's best to not bother flirting, since that is the
>DR> most polite behavior.

GTP> You don't know enough pagan women, David. A pagan 
GTP> woman will tell you to sod off if she isn't interested.
GTP> I think you just aren't good at recognizing the signs
GTP> that someone is interested in you. The blonde woman, 
GTP> Moon-something, was interested in you. You just didn't 
GTP> seem to notice and being crowded in with three hundred 
GTP> other people didn't seem a good time to mention it.

If she was interested, she should have kicked me in the 
shins.


... "If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease." -- Clark Adams
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   GWENNY THE POOH
|Sub:  No, really II
|Date: 16 Jan 97  11:37:00
EID:dd2a 22305ca0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Gwenny The Pooh to David Rice <=-

>>GTP> No, not at all. It was an accusation of hiding
>>GTP> in your tent.

>DR> But I =am= a glutton and lush.

GTP> Really. I hadn't noticed. Well, hopefully we will 
GTP> have a couple of gallons of mead ready by then. Come
GTP> have a quaff or two.

Well, "glutton" at any rate. I intensely dislike the taste 
of alcohol.

>DR> I wasn't "hiding in my tent." I just had nothing to 
>DR> do but sit around and read. I did "gate duty" every
>DR> night.

GTP> I'll make sure you keep busy. There is so much going 
GTP> on, you just have to look for it. We had filksings,
GTP> which are alot of fun.

I've filked a Glen Campbell song, turing "A Rhinestone 
Cowboy" into "A Flaming Gay-boy" that is sure to get me 
killed by both straight and homosexual Pagans if I were
to sing it. " . . . and offers coming over th' 
phone. . . ." That would be fun to sing.

GTP> Have a good time and keep in touch. Our address is 
GTP> 96 Dartmouth Place

What's the ZIP code?

GTP> Are you planning on coming back for Dfest or is that 
GTP> a surprise??

I don't plan on surviving the sailing trip. If I do, it 
seems very unlikely I'll be attending Dragonfest for a
few years after that because I'll have to get a job.

>>GTP> Yes, I know. I've had to listen to sob stories.

>DR> I cannot imagine who you would be "listening" to. There
>DR> were no women at Dragonfest who "made a pass" at me.

GTP>  I've seen one do it, you just didn't notice.

If that were true I would have noticed her seeing-eye dog.

>>>GTP> What you seem to fail to understand is that most 
>>>GTP> of us are empathic. You give off "don't touch me"
>>>GTP> vibes.

>>>DR> No I don't. That was Thomas Covenant, book five.

>>GTP> Yes, you do.

>DR> I do not so there!

GTP> Yes, you do.

Do not.

GTP> That would be telling. I can tell you that AGAIN 
GTP> this year I didn't manage to make any time with that 
GTP> gorgeous redhead from Grand Junction. Damn, I love his 
GTP> hair. If you can get back for Dfest, I'll share my 
GTP> exploits over a glass of mead.

Oooo, secrets! I love spreading (er, I mean HEARING) 
secrets!

>DR> THAT woman? I thought she was awesome and fun to be
>DR> with, but she showed no interest at all in spending
>DR> time with me. She was too busy being Demeter.

GTP> She was shyer than you and kept giving you fawn 
GTP> eyes.

Did not.

GTP> She's an artist, btw, so she's entitled to act "odd".

Fortunately, I =PREFER= "odd." It's excisting wondering
if the personality one went to sleep with is the same as
the one one wakes up to.

>>GTP> I don't remember the name, just that you fled into 
>>GTP> your tent.

>DR> You're making this up, right?

GTP> NO!

Are too!

>DR> Melody was years before you met me at Dragonfest. Her 
>DR> boyfriend was Gerold someone-or-other who was a real
>DR> pain in the ass (Sean knows who I'm talking about).

GTP> Gerald Bliss!!!!!  ARGHHHHHH!

Ah, so you know him. :-) Yep, that was the name.

GTP> Melody?? Was she a little redhead who was ditzy??

I hope this doesn't sound as cruel as it sounds :-) but:

"Ditzy" doesn't even begin to describe her. Clinging, 
neurotic, desperate, needing. Every time I turned around 
she was standing a foot behind me. I'd wake up and crawl 
out of the tent and she's be there. Sit down on a rock in 
the middle of the forest, all alone, and *POOF!* there she 
was standing in front of me. She stalked me from dusk to 
dawn and smarled with rage in her eyes at every other 
woman I talked to. I wanted to spend time with Mary Gay,
Magenta Griffith, and two of the four Melissas instead.

>DR> She said she's broken up with that boyfriend I saw 
>DR> her with three years ago, and asked if I were really
>DR> shy or just "polite."

GTP> And you told her??

Yes.

>DR> That was five or six letters ago.

GTP> !!!!!!!!

???????

>DR> I would dearly love to go to Dragonfest '97. I still 
>DR> have an issue or two with You Know Who (Starwyn) that 
>DR> needs to be tackled, man-to-woman.

GTP>   And she's still single. 

She's been abducted by space aliens. No one I know has 
seen her. The last I heard, she planned on DF'96 but her
autocar ceased functioning.

>DR> If I had a job and a place to put my boat for five 
>DR> months, I'd go to  DR> Dragonfest.

GTP>   I could burn a candle for you. It would be an
GTP> interesting experiment. Hey, what do yo do, anyway??

Network administrator; AS/400 operator; Microsoft Access
database guru; programmer; seaman; sit and look pretty.

>DR> You know. Now that I think of it, I could cruise the 
>DR> Sea of Cortez from April until mid-August, go to 
>DR> Dragonfest, and in September sail to the Marquesas. 
>DR> Hummm.....

GTP> Oh, that sounds GREAT. Where would you put in for Dfest?

Wrapped in laytex.

Oh, you mean the boat! At the Dana Point Guest Dock.

GTP> I could try to find you a ride.

I plan on keeping my pickup.


... A zealot's stones may break my bones, but gods will never hurt me
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To:   J.J. HITT
|Sub:  JEREMIAH 31:15 / Matthew
|Date: 16 Jan 97  11:41:00
EID:f0bf 22305d20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Leonard Bernier <=-

JH> On Jan 11 11:48 97, Leonard Bernier of 1:225/364 wrote:

LB> PROPHECY - Herod will kill the children.

LB> Thus says the Lord, "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation
LB> are bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children, she
LB> refuses to be compforted for her children, because they are
LB> no more."

JH> It doesn't mention Herod.
JH> It doesn't mention any king.
JH> It doesn't mention the cause of death.
JH> It doesn't even mention death.
JH>
JH> And who in the fuck is this Rachel bitch anyway?

Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled
Farrell Till

The same is true of the greater part of the prophecy "fulfillments" 
boasted of in the New Testament. A careful study of the original 
contexts will cast serious doubts on the efforts of the New 
Testament writers to construe them as prophecies. In Matthew 2:18, 
for example, we are told that Herod's decree to kill all male 
children under two in and around Bethlehem fulfilled a prophecy of 
Jeremiah: "A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation, weeping, and 
great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, refusing to be 
comforted, Because they are no more." If, however, one reads this 
statement in its original context in Jeremiah 31 and the two 
preceding chapters, he will see that the passage was addressing the 
problem of Jewish dispersion caused by the Babylonian captivity. 
Time and time again, Jeremiah promised that the Jews would be 
recalled from captivity to reclaim their land. Finally, in the verse 
quoted by Matthew, he said, "Thus says Yahweh: `A voice was heard in 
Ramah, Lamentation and bitter weeping, Rachel weeping for her 
children, refusing to be comforted for her children, because they 
are no more'" (31:15). That Jeremiah intended this statement to 
apply to the dispersion contemporary to his times is evident from 
the verses immediately following, where he promised a return of 
those who had been scattered: "Thus says Yahweh: `Refrain your voice 
from weeping, And your eyes from tears; For your work shall be 
rewarded, says Yahweh, And they [Rachel's children] shall come back 
from the land of the enemy. There is hope in your future, says 
Yahweh, that your children shall come back to their own border" 
(vv:16-17). If verse 15 (the weeping verse) was indeed a prophecy of 
Herod's massacre, why would the rest of the passage, which promised 
the re-turn of Rachel's children, not also be prophetic? Indeed, it 
would have to be, wouldn't it? Yet there is no claim in Matthew's 
gospel account that the children slaughtered under Herod's edict 
were ever brought back to their border, which would have 
necessitated a restoration to life. Hence, in this case, Rachel's 
"work" was never "rewarded," and these children of hers never "came 
back." Aside from this, "children" was obviously being used by 
Jeremiah in a figurative sense to mean the descendants of Rachel, 
adults as well as children, and not to designate literal children 
only, as would have to be the case if events in Matthew 2 are to be 
interpreted as fulfillment of a "prophecy." The conclusion, then, is 
inescapable: Jeremiah 31:15 was a prophecy of Herod's massacre only 
because Matthew distorted it into one.


... Help your L.A. police---- beat up some homosexuals and black people.
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To:   Al Schroeder
|Sub:  truth
|Date: 15 Jan 97 16:28:00
EID:6f70 222f8380
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 2dd89901
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to J.J. Hitt <=-

Good morning, Al.

AS> I don't
AS> paint myself blue and leap naked or near-naked into battle, like my
AS> Celt, English, or Germanic ancestors did.

Why not?

Take care.

... One planet...  One people....  Please!
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  dark bible #4
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:45:01
EID:f207 22303da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a045e
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 9 Jan 97 01:19pm, JOHN BRAWLEY wrote to ROBERT CURRY:


JB> That's not quite the tale.  If I had simply said "gimme a meteor, God,"
JB> and then gone out and looked for one, your argument would be clearly
JB> valid.  However, I did not do this.  I said "gimme a meteor, God, at
JB> exactly 12 midnight on December 21st (winter solstice)," and I said
this
JB> six months in advance of the event.

JB> In other words, your comparison with meteor-seeing statistics is unfair;
JB> you'd have to offer a statistical likelihood of seeing a meteor in a
JB> specified window of time.  The "chance of seeing a meteor" is much
JB> greater than the "chance of seeing a meteor at exactly 10:37 PM."

In your original post on this, you mentioned that you saw
your meteor not exactly at midnight, that it was a few minutes
off.

JB> I'm an old meteor-buff.  I knew the chances of seeing one on any
JB> particular night, and I keep an eye out for mentions on the news or
in
JB> the astronomy mags of the Perseids, the Leonids, and so forth.

So soon you forget the Urids, and that they peaked on that
night.



... "GET a life? I'm scared my life's gonna get me!"
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  fat people
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:45:02
EID:5201 22303da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a04d5
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 11 Jan 97 11:04am, J.J. HITT wrote to DAVID WORRELL:


JH>  I was just thinking about how Tiger Thighs has chosen to make a
JH>  big deal about native aboriginal cultures. If they aint partiarchal,
JH>  I'm goddam Mother Teressa.

There were several hundred different cultures; best not to
make such a sweeping generalization.  Quite a few were matrilineal
and the man had to move in with his wife's relatives and be
counted as her clan.  In some, for instance the Iroquois
confederation, women had a say in government.  And FWIW, I do know
that in the late '80s, the head of the Cherokee was Wilma
Mankiller.

So, while I still wouldn't mistake you for a saint, I do
have to wonder whether you've ever taken money from Charles
Keating.  8-)



... Ceci n'est pas une tagline.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  native americans
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:45:03
EID:b9e3 22303da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a054c
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 11 Jan 97 03:53am, DAN CEPPA wrote to TIGER EYES:


JJH>>  You mean those ignorant
DC> shits who never invented the wheel?
JJH>>  Or a written language?

TE>> Look you ignorant Nazi, skin-head motherfucker!  If it weren't for
us

DC> You protest too much.  Got any evidence that that American Indians
DC> invented the wheel?

DC> I'll give you the quasi-written language.

Without a domesticated "beast of burden," of what use
would a wheel have been?


... Clop. Clop. "I'm a cowboy-hippie, hippie-ay." Clop. Clop.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   J.J. Hitt
|Sub:  superstion
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:45:04
EID:1705 22303da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a05c3
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 11 Jan 97 07:03pm, J.J. HITT wrote to ROGER HUNTER:

JH>   Even the cyanide family isn't as fast as the movies would
JH>   have us believe.

JH>   According to Final Exit, potasium cyanide _when_ _prepaired_
JH>   _correctly_ can produce unconsciousness in less than a
JH>   minute, but death may not follow for more than an hour.

JH>   When not properly prepaired, you can remain conscious and
JH>   in extreme pain for hours. (Jonestown showed ample evidence
JH>   of this.) The key factors being wether one has an empty
JH>   stomach and a high stomach acidity.

Yep.  That's the reason why Rasputin didn't die of his
dose--he'd just polished off a huge meal before visiting the
conspirators.


... OS/2:. . .And the Gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Dan Ceppa
|Sub:  in passing
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:45:05
EID:4950 22303da0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a063a
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 11 Jan 97 07:44pm, DAN CEPPA wrote to AL SCHROEDER:


DC>> Never read that.  However, I did read Asimov's short story on Entropy.

AS>> Title? Asimov wrote so much...

DC> _Entropy_

DC> ... Entropy!  "And the computer said, 'let there be light'"

Are you sure it wasn't _The Last Question_ that had that
punchline?

FWIW, there's a novel by David Gerrold or Gordon Eklund
named _What Entropy Means to Me_.


... I have no keyboard, and I must click-clack!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Robert Curry
|Sub:  more babbling email
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:46:06
EID:25a8 22303dc0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a06b1
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
On 11 Jan 97 05:50am, ROBERT CURRY wrote to AL SCHROEDER:

RC> with: Curtis Johnson

RC>> Are you proud of the fact that you have disgusted and
RC>> thoroughly alienated him?

AS>> That is your assertion, not his

RC> My assertion has the benefit of being accurate, a characteristic
RC> alien to many of yours.

Yep.

AS>> If he was either, than that is his problem, not mine.

RC> It *was* his problem; he solved it.

Yep.  And I feel much better about it.

AS>> Jesse's a big boy, and his decisions are his own. Similarly,
AS>> Curtis is a big boy, and HIS decisions are his own.

And this was one of the right ones.

I might do the occasional correcting of an Al "fact"--and
there's plenty of them to do, but I'm staying away from that tar
baby.  Jeez, he's *still* whining about the e-mail thing!  Has it
hit 2 months yet that he's been doing that?

My board's e-mail finally came up a couple of days after
the FIDO connection was restored.  My previous e-mail may not have
reached you because the board's problems; but to make sure, you're
at curry@gte.net, right?




... Conan was a hacker.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   David Worrell
|Sub:  whose mantra?
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:47:07
EID:9a06 22303de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a0728
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
LW>>> But seriously, Heisenberg has long since put to rest the idea
LW>>> that even physical events can always be predicted in precise
LW>>> mathematical detail. The old, mechanistic view of the universe
LW>>> is, if not dead, terminally ill.

CJ>>         Quantum mechanical statistics converge to give the
CJ>>  "mechanistic" view for macroscopic events.
CJ>>         The interesting thing about quantum mechanics is that the
CJ>>  statistical predictions are eminently mathematical; the
CJ>>  controversy is on what the mathematics mean.
CJ>>         Get hold of a text on quantum mechanics for physicists who
CJ>>  have to use it:  it will be fiercely mathematical.

DW> Do you ever wish that people like Fritjoff  Capra had all been
DW> stillborn?

Capra himself wasn't that bad; I suspect he's quite
embarrassed by all the New-Agey types who somehow came away from
the book convinced that it's scientific to be a fuzzy thinker.

I've convinced that something similar happens with fundies
and their bible: if they can't understand it, then it *must* be
true--and best of all, since they can't fully understand it, they
get to think what they misunderstand is true.


... Nightmare:  Cats with opposable thumbs.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   Fredric Rice
|Sub:  goodbye!  goodbye!  n
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:47:08
EID:c6ff 22303de0
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a079f
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
SM>> "GUARDS!! GUARDS!! AFTER HIM!!"   [d&rg]
JH>> GOURDS! GOURDS!  SQUASH HIM!
DC>> GARRANDS!  GARRANDS!  SHOOT HIM!
ML>> GERUNDS! GERUNDS! DO HIM!
EV>> GROUNDS! GROUND! FILTER THEM!
ML>> GROINS! GROINS! KNEE HIM!
JH>> GOADS! GOADS! POKE HIM!
ML>> GOATS! GOATS! RAM HIM!
DC>> GROATS, GROATS, BOIL HIM!
ML>> GOITERS! GOITERS! ENLARGE HIM!
DC>> GROLIERS! GROLIERS! CATALOG HIM!
ML>> GONIOMETERS! GONIOMETERS! ANGLE HIM!
EM>> GaAsFETS! GaAsFETS! AMPLIFY HIM!
RV>> GROWLER! GROWLER! SHORT-CIRCUITED HIM!
CJ>> GOPHERS! GOPHERS! FTP HIM!
KW>> GALACTOPHORE! GALACTOPHORE!  MILK HIM!
cj>> GALACTOSE!  GALACTOSE!  RUN HIM!
FR> GLUCOSE!  GLUCOSE!  GLAZE HIM!

GRACKLES! GRACKLES! PECK HIM!


... Without a revision, the characters perish.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  dark bible #4
|Date: 16 Jan 97  07:49:09
EID:f207 22303e20
MSGID: 1:261/1137 300a0816
TID: InterEcho 1.19 6E011031
JB>> placement involved.  In my personal experience (say, a total of 200
or
JB>> 250 hours of eye-on-dark-sky watching), the number of meteors I see
per
JB>> hour is WAY below what you note below.  Most nights, I'm lucky to see
JB>> _one_.

CJ>>         Should we then conclude that there is a Quantum God, but
CJ>>  that it didn't want you to see meteors?

JB> (*chuckle*)  No, meteor-watching is just not very personally
JB> quantifiable.  I'm VERY SLIGHTLY nearsighted.  I might miss seeing some
JB> of the really faint ones.

It's quite quantifiable on a personal basis--the
quantification is statistical.

JB>> Hypothesis (and the experience) is the timing and placement.  One needs
JB>> not only ask how many meteors are average, but also how many meteors
JB>> should be expected from _demanding_them_at_a_specific_ time, say, within
JB>> a five-minute window, and further, one would have to ask what the
JB>> probability is for repeating this a few times.

CJ>>         Agreed.  Which is why one should first check out what the
CJ>>  background (aka "sporadic") rate is first, then check dates of
CJ>>  meteor showers--in the case of your date, the Ursids.

JB> I agree.  I did not claim perfect experimental rigidity for this event,
JB> only that the event _did_occur_ as described.

That it occurred is all too believable, with a sporadic
background of a meteor every 7-8 minutes, on the average, even
when the particular night is not one for a shower--and your
selected night marks the peak of the Urids.

CJ>>         BTW, in 1999 there should be quite a show from (IIRC) the
CJ>>  Leonids, which tend to recur every 33 years.  Unfortunately, it'll
CJ>>  probably play into the hand of the millenialists.

JB> That's good news.  (Not the millennialists' overzealous minor
JB> insanities; the meteor shower's hopefully unusual density.)

As far as sky shows goes, Comet Hale-Bopp is looking pretty
good for spring.  Just reached the distance of Martian orbit, and
it's magnitude 4.5.

JB>> given a) the "God," b) the "God's" ability to detect human mentation
JB>> (hence "make appointments"), c) the "God's" willingness to, say, divert
JB>> meteors slightly, and d) the quantum facts of chaos-theory adjustability
JB>> and quantum probabilistic meddlings, the statistics of such "coincidence
JB>> testing" _should_ show a definite deviation from the expected
JB>> probabilistic "norm."  Eh?

CJ>>         Given the premises a), b), c), and d), offhand I see no
CJ>>  reason to argue your conclusion.  There is, howver, 4 premises
CJ>>  which do not necessarily apply--and in fact, at least the first 3
CJ>>  are supposedly what were being proved (IOW, circular reasoning).

JB> Hmmm... I don't think it's circular, when couched in the form of an
JB> hypothesis.  That is, when one creates an hypothesis, one assumes that
JB> the effect hypothesized is there to be looked for.   It is hypothesis-
JB> _testing_ that, if the conclusion were maintained in the face of the
JB> lack of evidence that the premise or premises were correct, that would
JB> name the researcher a victim of circular reasoning.  (I think)

JB> IOW, testing the hypothesis, and getting zero deviation from chance
JB> (given the known background), would negatively impact the "premises,"
JB> which is what the test is about in the first place.

JB> The first 3 are interrelated, necessary assumptions to be tested, and
JB> the fourth is a matter of fact.  IOW, I don't have a "conclusion," I
JB> have a phenomenological prediction that needs to be tested.

OK, it's a ruling out instead of a ruling-in.  However,
note that an experiment requiring *three* untested and probably
uncontrollable hypotheses does not make for a rigorous test!

CJ>>         I note that you have not even bothered to state what these
CJ>>  "interferences" are.  Presumably a red light would classify as an
CJ>>  intereference.

JB> It would.  I am used to noting "coincidences" in my life, having learned
JB> earlier that they have a peculiar consistency when tracked over time.

JB> Since I've lived here over ten years, I have a general impression of
JB> what events are "normal" or "matters of chance," and I note departures
JB> from these.  IOW, I have a "baseline," but it is not rigidly recorded;
JB> it's a matter of memory and habitual motion through my area.

Many aspects of probability are counter-intuitive, even
when they're quite quantifiable.  To give a relatively well-known
instance, in a room of a mere 30 randomly-chosen strangers, the
odds are overwhelmingly in favor that at least two will share the
same birthdate.
To make matters worse, you are relying on quite subjective
factors; there is a wealth of psychology experiments on how easily
we deceive each other in this area.

CJ>>         For starters, you'll have to categorize what "interference"
CJ>>  consists of beforehand.  Red light?  Someone asking for spare

JB> Sure.  Almost anything can be an "interference" if it trends against
my
JB> success in buying cigarettes.  For example: the number of times the
JB> store is out of my brand as compared to the number of times it isn't,
or
JB> the number of times the clerk fumbles the pack and drops it on the floor
JB> as opposed to the 'background' where he didn't (before I decided to
JB> quit), and so forth.  _Anything_ which is a) seemingly random, and b)
JB> could have been caused by a quantum-adjustable glitch in either
JB> insensate matter or the far more rapidly-processing brain of some person
JB> or animal, and which is contrary to "chance" by some perhaps small
JB> amount, is a usable datum --one instance in a memory-held collection
of
JB> such data.  Over time, one develops an impression of the general trends
JB> involved in various types of morivational exercises.

Uh, John, isn't making a pack of cigarettes disappear
(being "out of brand") within an hour or two before you show up a
greater manipulation of time and matter than the meteor you asked
for six months in advance?
Regarding my own experiences:  when I tried to quit a
couple of decades ago, I ran into an acquaintance and when I
*boasted* to him that I'd been trying to quit and had gone 30
hours without, he immediately took out his nearly-full pack and
inserted it into my pocket and walked on.  And it's the truth:
several times, when I'd been out of pocket and only a couple of
hours since smoking, I've run across half-full packs lying on the
ground.
My own *subjective* impression is that your Quantum God
*wants* me to smoke.
Or maybe, since quantum mechanics operates on a statistical
basis, maybe psychic events favorable to you are coming at the
expense of me or someone else?  (It rather reminds me of my fundy
parents praying for good weather during their Hawaii vacation--and
so, they felt (without guilt!!!) that God had extended the drought
that wiped out farmers and cost millions, just so they could have
a good time.)
AAMOF, doesn't the "butterfly effect" (you know, the
flap of a butterfly's wings theoretically being able to cause a
tornado in Nebraska a couple of weeks later) invalidate your
Quantum God listening to people?  You want fervent prayer and
belief, check out religious farmers of *any* brand when faced
with a prolonged drought; if anything that was truer in the past
when droughts were more statistically likely to kill people.

JB> BUT: it is critical for such an examination --even a cursory, imprecise
JB> one-- that a person begin to develop the habit of _looking_for_ and
JB> paying attention to, _coincidences_.  One must become more aware of
what
JB> goes on in one's visual/aural/personal space to such an extent that
one
JB> develops the ability to recall what one was _thinking_ at the moment
of
JB> coincidence, for, if there's "meaning" between thought and the external
JB> world's coincidence-component, one has to collect data over a relatively
JB> long time.  (I can't take that one improbable meteor event as evidence,
JB> but I could, if it repeated enough times.  In the 'usual' world
JB> (cigarettes), there are many occasions for repeating-coincidence data
to
JB> be collected and mentally collated.)

Yep, and even more opportunity to fool yourself.
One reason for my skepticism is that I was in a hypnotism
experiment where I *saw* a pencil that wasn't there.  It's a damn
sight  to fool yourself about how often things might
happen.




... Leave the binary thinking to your CPU.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 1470
* Silver Xpress V4.00


--- InterEcho 1.19
* Origin: * MetroNet * Baltimore, Maryland, USA (1:261/1137)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub:  "flat earth" town
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:04:20
EID:5375 22300880
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd7e94
-> On 14 Jan 97  20:10:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to David Worrell


DW>Silly me. I always thought school was to teach you how to learn. They
must

KW> The sad thing, David, is that you well may be right about this part.
KW> Here in TX the aim of education is to pass a standardized test.

That, in itself, is not that bad.  Where the problem lies is 
that they lower the standards each an every year.  

... Minds are like parachutes - They only work when open
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: The Northest Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:17:51
EID:b136 22300a20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd81bf
-> On 14 Jan 97  05:31:24, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> Of which zero is the smallest infinitesimal.

JB> Illogical.  My info is that Leibnitz referred to an "infinitesimal"

JB> number as "the smallest possible NONZERO number."  If zero represented

That's the only way it could work, logically.  However, it makes 
moe sense to me to actually add all of the zeros.  Not correct, 
mathematically, but it does take care of those "minute" holes 
that are left there when you don't. 

DC> Just because we can't make a perfect block, or fully point to it's
DC> center, we can and do use mathematics to find exactly that point.

JB> Which, as zero, is not part of the block itself....

It is, and it isn't.  Yet, it's still "there".  

JB> OK, then tell, please, how you can use zero as an infinitesimal number
JB> to add to any slice?  Adding a zero does not result in a smaller

See above.  Without my way of 'adding zeroes', calculus cannot 
be exact.  Yet, it is.  Yes, as above, it's not correct, as 
0+0 is zero, but it helps me understand how it does work and 
get the answer. 

JB> number;  it results in the _same_ number.  (You present a
JB> self-cancelling  argument.)

All math is nothing but a concept, John.  If the concept is 
logical and works everytime the constraints are placed 
upon it, it makes it that much more valid.  Find a discrepancy, 
then you have to either explain it or toss out the original 
presupposition.  

JB> get rid of it (the point), according to your earlier argument, you
JB> would  have "zero points."  A point is a _one_, not a zero.  The

No, John.  It's only a point, nothing more.  

JB> "origin" of a  coordinate system uses zeroes (0,0,0), but that's a
JB> slightly different  subject (geometry; topology).

It also works with economics and accounting.  In fact, it's 
a required precept.  

DC> has an overlap at each number.  The line is only a visual
DC> representation of the concept.

JB> Please clarify "an overlap at each number."  That looks like a
JB> ludicrous  idea....

This character "  '   " represents the zero point.  However, it 
has a width, else you would not see it.  Thus, it overlaps on 
both sides as to what it really is, nothing.  


... Help fight against a cure for nymphomania.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   John Brawley
|Sub:  'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:33:03
EID:b136 22300c20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd854f
-> On 14 Jan 97  05:31:24, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> Is 1+1= 2?  Is 1+0= 1?

JB> Does +1 change what it was added to?  (yes)  Does 0 change what it was
JB> added to?  (no)  Does _any_ nonzero number change the number it is
JB> added  to?  (yes)  Does zero? (no)

DC> Try again, John.  Both of the above examples total 2.  See if you

JB> I _beg_ your effing pardon?  "Both of the above examples total 2?" 

I'll pardon you for your mistake, but only if you say, "pretty 
please".  After all:  

Absolutely.  Both statements are exactly the same about them 
both totaling "2".   

JB> One  plus zero totals to "2?"  Where IS your mind hiding today?

Right in front of you, but you didn't bother to look at the number 
of numbers that are represented before the "=".  

JB> My point stands.  I need not "try again."  My statement is trivially


But you do, John. In each case there were 2 operands.  As such, 
the manipuation of both equations required the exact same form of 
math to know that the answer was the addition of TWO numbers.  
Hence, John, each equation is the result of adding TWO numbers 
together.  That is the TWO I alluded to.  If you want to have 
a bit more fun, I'll change those numbers a bit and show you, 
on the average, they, including a zero, are average and equal.  

JB> obvious, and 'zero' is a different animal (in other ways, too) than
JB> any  other "number."

Zero does do some things differently that some other numbers, 
but it still is a number, John.  

... When I was your age Clinton was "honest"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Stuart Lumgair
|Sub:  'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:42:19
EID:4466 22300d40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd877b
-> On 14 Jan 97  09:56:30, Stuart Lumgair got back to Fredric Rice 

SL> Yes, but zero does not exist as a natural number.
SL> Claiming to see zero birds in a tree is the same as
SL> seeing zero pink unicorns in the same tree. Both are

So, just how many birds or unicorns are there in the 
tree if there are no birds or unicorns in that tree?  

... "Give the newpaper boys $100k..  On second thought, fuck em."  WCF
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Jan deBoer
|Sub:  *CR* Cat Poop Cookies
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:43:51
EID:59d3 22300d60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd87d7
-> On 14 Jan 97  04:26:00, Jan deBoer got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> Ooops...  I forgot my recipe for Flaming Fundy, which, of course,
DC> is a vegetable dish.

Jd> Vegatable dish?....I thought it was offal!

I never did say it was a good dish, did I?      ;)  

... we are a part of nature, not the masters of it. - jonny vee
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  Al S.; Warring Christanic
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:51:45
EID:a792 22300e60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd89b1
-> On 14 Jan 97  10:40:00, Ronald Vass got back to David Worrell 

RV> ......now he's got pagens on the war path.....you get threats of
RV> getting sue/policy 4 complaints and then the top honor of 'fundy'.

Hey!  I'd try and gert you psissed of abouyt me for telling 
you how bad your spiulling is. (DOS that work?)  

RV> Dam you guys are good.

We do are best!  

RV> Dam , will just have to work harder. O'well back to the boat with
RV> some more bait.

Get it rigged with a sail and you'll really have some fun!  

... "Father, they DO know what they're doing!" Jesus in Riverworld
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Andrew Masten
|Sub:  Anthropic asininities.
|Date: 16 Jan 97  01:58:18
EID:0dc0 22300f40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd8b3a
-> On 14 Jan 97  17:51:32, Andrew Masten got back to Marty Leipzig 

AM> Thats correct. And if someone flipped a coin heads 10000 times in a
AM> row, I would suspect a fix.

You could, and you would have the right to examine the coin and 
question the tosser.  However, that does not preclude that the 
event you _witnessed_ did did not occur.  

Now, are you going to make it that "god didn't do it", or 
say "satan did"?  

... "Faith is not wishing to know what is true." - Nietzsche
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Ronald Vass
|Sub:  Bacteria and Evolution.
|Date: 16 Jan 97  02:05:59
EID:4adf 223010a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd8d07
-> On 13 Jan 97  15:37:00, Ronald Vass got back to Dan Ceppa 

DC> AS> pagan world killed many Christians like animals?

DC>With the xians more than making up the difference in body count 
DC>with their own pograms[<-sic]

RV> Rapid animals can do that.

Damn, just how fast are they!  
My guess is that they hit the rapids and hopefully drowned!  

(Yes, I did at first get "rabid", but "rapid" worked best in 
my reply to you!  Sorry! & LOL!)  

... The earth does not belong to us, but us to it....
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To:   Curtis Johnson
|Sub:  cheese whiz
|Date: 16 Jan 97  02:13:19
EID:18e2 223011a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32dd8ebf
-> On 15 Jan 97  02:18:17, Curtis Johnson got back to Brett Johnson 

BJ> The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.

CJ> The Lord is an 'Indian giver.'

CJ>  think of a better phrase.>

ROLFL!  

I think that is far to appropriate!  

... What?  Me Worry?  -- Alfred E. Neuman
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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