God Damned Fundies!
|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Most Read Book
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:03:44
EID:bb7e 2242b860
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f3b464
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f563a0
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ken Young said to Dan Ceppa about Most Read Book:
pa> And if you do your homework, you will discover most of
pa> the foundign father of the USA, were Christians..
ML> Fleeing from Christian tyranny.
ky> Nope, but nice try.. Rather, they were escaping from
ky> religious tyranny.
DC> And the perptrators of the religious tyranny where....
DC>
DC> Xians!
DC> How about that, Ken.
ky> Keep on trying.. Maybe you'll get it eventually..
ky> (Though, I kinda doubt it.)
You shouldn't . . . he got it right the first time, as did
Marty . . .
ky> They were religious,
. . . like Xtians . . .
ky> going by some Judeo Christian beliefs,
. . . like Xtians . . .
ky> but were not necessarily Christians.
LOL . . . just because you say so? Ergo, they WERE Xtians.
They may not have been GOOD Xtians, but they WERE Xtians.
ky> If it was to flee CHRISTIAN tyranny, then how come
ky> many of those fleeing were in fact, Christians?
Different sects.
... Deuteronomy 13:1-5: Kill those who speak of other religions.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:10:46
EID:a479 2242b940
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f3b520
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f56546
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ken Young said to Martin Goldberg about Exemplifying examples:
MG> Perfect? Why does he starve people to death?
ky> I wasn't aware God did that.. People do that all on
ky> their own.
Those awful people, starving themselves to death and making
us worried, huh Ken?
What a stunning example of Xtian love you are.
Btw, WHICH God?
MG> Do they now? What is it that they do to make weather
MG> conditions so bad as to dry the land and prevent crops
MG> from growing?
ky> This is Holy Smoke, not the Conspiracy echo.. :)
That you have no real answer to Martin's question is duly
noted.
ky> But God still lets it happen.. Maybe if we came
ky> back to God, crops would do better..
But some of the people your Deity (who you still haven't
named, btw) is starving ARE Xtians! And in the Bible there
are several instances of famines, etc., either caused by or
augmented by YHVH. So why should anyone trust It now?
ky> I doubt very much if he is specifically keeping
ky> food from people..
MG> Sure sounds like he is to me.
ky> Nope..
Oh, but it does sound like that to Martin. Me too, as a
matter of fact.
ky> Except for maybe manna, I can't think of a use God has
ky> for food..
Which God? And if your Deity has no use for food, then why
doesn't It provide the food It doesn't need? Selfishness?
MG> Btw, don't you have a middle name? I'm too busy
MG> laughing at your initials to post too much to you.
ky> YEah, Charles.. But, what could you possibly be
ky> getting out of my initials?
Just that, aside from Butter-Flavored Crisco, you're the
lube of choice . . .
... So YHVH only gives food to Jews?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Mormonism IS Christianit
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:33:48
EID:b615 2242bc20
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f3b906
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f56aac
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ken Young said to Fredric Rice about Mormonism IS Christianity:
FR> And you're a willing part of the hate and bigotry that
FR> Christianity is. The KKK, Aryan Nations, Promise
FR> Keepers, the Sword and the Cross, and every lunatic
FR> self-professed "militia" in the United States are _all_
FR> Christian organizations, run and populated by Christians
FR> just like you.
ky> Gee, just when I figure you people can't be any more
ky> wrong, you go one better..
Well, you lead the way . . .
ky> First, militias are not for the Christians, alone. Many
ky> Jews, Pagans, Atheists, etc. are in militias. People from
ky> all walks of life are in them. Are there any militias run
ky> by CHristians, and more for them? SUre.. But there are
ky> those, for all, as well..
Really? Name three. And name your source for this info; is
it Militia Weekly or some other theme magazine? Or just
your imaginatiion?
ky> ANd how anyone can put the word hate and Promise Keepers
ky> in the same sentence, is beyond me..
It's remarkably easy, as it is with other Fundy Xtian
organizations. Consider:
"I want to be invisible. I do guerilla warfare. I
paint my face and travel at night. You don't know
it's over until you're in a body bag. You don't know
until election night." -- Ralph Reed, Xtian Coalition
ky> They go too far the other way, actually..
Oh yeah? Evidence?
ky> And seeing as the groups Hitler was in, were of the
ky> Occult, it sure looks like he probably was too..
What groups were those? And you're willing to give him
guilt of one kind by association only, yet ignore guilt of
his of another kind that is based on his own admissions?
Spin doctoring, I see.
ky> He worshipped Satan, not God.
Evidence of this? And which God? I have evidence of the
obverse:
"During World War II, while I was serving with the
Third Army in Germany, I removed a belt buckle from
the uniform of a dead German soldier. The lettering
on the buckle read: Gott Mit Uns (God Is With Us)."
-- Kurt Vonnegut
So, got anything in writing from Hitler or his soldiers that
he was worshipping Satan?
... Creative Bible use #4: Reformed Church (S. Africa) endorses Apartheid.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: ...
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:36:50
EID:c6bd 2242bc80
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f3ebc8
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f56b62
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ken Young said to Lynda Bustilloz about ...:
RH> No.
as> Whipping with a Roman scourge and being tortured on
as> the cross for hours isn't sacrifice?..
LB> No more of a sacrifice than the thieves on either side
LB> of him made. And less,
LB> since he only put up with death for three days.
ky> The main difference is that they were criminals..
ky> Christ wasn't guilty of anything..
Then why was he tried and sentenced? And, btw, if he HADN'T
been crucified, Xtianity wouldn't exist today would it? In
essence, you and every Xtian are dependent on the torture
and death of (by your own words) a blameless individual.
Real, true, Xtian love there . . .
... 1Samuel 15:3: Saul kills Amalekites, including women & suckling babes.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be sa
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:43:52
EID:119a 2242bd60
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f41132
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f56d08
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ken Young said to Martin Goldberg about Why do you NEED to be sav:
SS> Why does ANYONE need to be saved? Please be specific. I
SS> have yet to have a christian answer this simple question.
sh> Much the same answer as you would get to the question "Why
sh> does anyone need a liver?"
MG> Why do we need to be saved?
ky> Okay, you want to know why you need to be saved? Really, I
ky> think the answer is simple, but I will go on anyway..
So it should not be a problem for you to explain, eh?
ky> Simply put, you need
ky> to be saved so you will have everlasting life in Heaven.
Why would I want to go to Heaven? Why can't I have
everlasting life here? And how can I have life if I can
only get to Heaven by dying?
ky> To be saved is to be saved from your sins, which doom
ky> you to Hell.
Then I don't have to go. I don't have any sins. To have
sins, they would have to be real things, rather than
actions. And since we understand (from Jimson Staalin,
among others) that sin was not created by YHVH, (though
supposedly YHVH created all things) but were rather actions
by others, I'm free of this need. I have done no sins.
Looks like you're trying to create a need for a nonexistent
condition.
... The churches've spilled enough blood to float all the ships of Europe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Naked Pagan Rituals
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:47:54
EID:8bce 2242bde0
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f41852
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f56dfa
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ken Young said to Ronald Vass about Naked Pagan Rituals:
RV> * SLMR 2.1a * Dead Babies go to Hell. -- Psalms 58:3 --
ky> May be just a tagline, but I had to respond.. In my Bible
ky> it says: The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go
ky> astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Then they're not guilty of sin while in the womb, and are
essentially sinless?
ky> Nowhere does it say babies will go to Hell.. Rather it is
ky> reemphasizing that we are born with a wicked nature.. But,
ky> babies do not go to Hell, simply because they are not at
ky> the age of accountability yet.
Great! Then abortion is a good idea for those babies! They
never sin, and they go to Heaven. What could be better for
them? Thanx for admitting this to us.
... Blessed shall he be that dasheth the little ones against rocks...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: unThinking not Al ?
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:55:56
EID:11e4 2242bee0
REPLY: 1:221/1503 32F25585
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f56fdc
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ronald Vass said to Al Schroeder about unThinking not Al ?:
Jd> Duh. Your god gives man the power of reason and a
Jd> natural curiosity, and then forbids him to use it,
Jd> i.e. don't eat the fruit of the tree of
Jd> knowledge. Talk about crushing the human spirit!
as> "Be thou as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves..."
RV> It may help your cause if you did a bit of study on 'doves'.
RV> All that statement does, is show what you have been lead
RV> to believe or what you wish to believe.
RV> Seems to me Sue also showed you or someone,that doves are
RV> NOT NICE birds. Or are these Al S. doves from the Al S.
RV> 'sample space' ie: not of this reality ?????????????
Maybe those doves were geese in their former lives . . .
... AL ADDENDUM: `If you say so' to replace as of now.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: False analogy#4
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:58:58
EID:bdab 2242bf40
REPLY: 1:221/1503 32F2558D
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f57092
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ronald Vass said to Al Schroeder about False analogy#4:
as> And when an atheist engages in hyperbole and
as> deceptive characterizations to refute any
as> analogies, that is...?
RV> Being Christian.
Aw, you've been peeking . . .
... Never turn down an opportunity to piss. -- General George Patton
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: Boredom
|Date: 03 Feb 97 00:00:00
EID:5230 22430000
REPLY: 1:221/1503 32F25590
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f570d0
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ronald Vass said to Jan Deboer about Boredom:
JD> On 27 Jan 97 19:00:30 Al Schroeder wrote to Jan deBoer...
AS> Jan, a believer in an afterlife thinks we all live eternally.
JD> So tell us, Al - what is the purpose of eternal life?
RV> So Al can bore his gods with spin doctoring of the Al's truth.
RV> ......talk about getting it in the ass or what......
LOL . . .
Maybe it's not really eternity . . . maybe it just SEEMS
like eternity . . .
... Yes, to some people, I AM patronizing. I have REASON to be.A.Schroeder
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Feb 97 00:06:02
EID:a257 224300c0
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32f29d90
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 32f5723a
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dan Ceppa said to Ken Young about Exemplifying examples:
KY> We were made in God's image.. Man came before woman..
KY> Does not take too much too figure out the rest.
DC> Think quick: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Depends . . . who was on top?
DC> And, just what two gods screwed each other to make your god?
Uh, God Dan, I thought that Gods only screwed mankind, not
other Gods . . .
... 1Samuel 5:6-9: YHVH afflicts Philistines w/tumors in "secret parts".
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Shroud Crapola
|Date: 03 Feb 97 08:49:16
EID:7124 22434620
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 2f5eceb0
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 32f4040e
-=> Quoting Jonathan Fingas to Robert Curry <=-
JF> It's called THE BIBLE. You certainly don't have any proof
JF> that Jesus DIDN'T turn water into wine, feed 5000 with a lone
JF> basket of food, or walk on water.
RC> No "proof" required to doubt such obvious fairy tales.
RC> Have you any evidence that these things could have occurred?
RC> If so, kindly cough it up.
JF> Oh? And can you prove it yourself?
Small reading problem, Jon? Didn't you see Robert say that
there was no proof required to doubt such obvious fairy
tales?
JF> Guess not, huh? You don't
JF> have any basis for your claims, so I'd just step aside and let
JF> people with intelligence discuss things in this forum.
Who died and made you king, you grotesque pile of shit? If
you can't back up your claims, just say so . . .
jf> What about
JF> the shroud of Turin? Scientists once thought it was a fake, but
JF> it turned out (guess what?) that they were wrong and they can't
JF> explain its origins.
Guess what? It IS a fake. Not ONLY has it been radiocarbon
dated to about the 14th century or later, but we have
reports of the person who faked it! The following was first
posted here by Don Martin this past July . . .
... By 1357 the Lirey cloth, proclaimed to be Christ's
... burial shroud, was being exhibited frequently for fees
... to large crowds of pilgrims from all over, when a
... skeptical French bishop named Henri de Poitiers
... launched an investigation into its provenance. As
... reported by Henri's successor, Bishop Pierre d'Arcis,
... the result was that the exhibitions were stopped. But
... three decades later they started again, prompting
... Pierre to write a lengthy letter to Clement VII, the
... Avignon Pope, to counter "the contempt brought upon the
... Church" and "the danger to souls." The famous
... letter--the earliest known reference to the
... shroud--begins (in translation):
...
... The case, Holy Father, stands thus. Some time since
... in this diocese of Troyes the Dean of a certain
... collegiate church, to wit, that of Lirey, falsely
... and deceitfully, being consumed with the passion of
... avarice, and not from any motive of devotion but
... only of gain, procured for his church a certain
... cloth cunningly painted . . .
...
... Pierre then describes the image on the cloth, which we
... today call the Shroud of Turin, along with the
... circumstances of the exhibitions and continues:
...
... Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination,
... he [Henri de Poitiers] discovered the fraud and how
... the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the
... truth being attested by the artist who painted it,
... to with, that it was a work of human skill and not
... miraculously wrought or bestowed.
...
... Later in his letter, Pierre states:
...
... I offer myself here as ready to supply all
... information sufficient to remove any doubt
... concerning the facts alledged.
...
... Clement considered the matter and issued a Bull,
... which, although allowing exhibition of the cloth,
... ordered that it be advertised only as a "copy or
... representation." However, this directive was gradually
... forgotten, and the proclaimed shroud came to be the
... most venerated relic in Christendom.
...
... Mueller MM, The shroud of Turin: A critical
... appraisal. The skeptical Enquirer
... 1982:7(3):15-34.
So, got any more LIES to share with us? What a stunning
example of Xtianity you are! Is Jesus proud of you for your
lying?
... You are a stench in the nostrils of honest men! -- Henry Fonda ___
Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Jason Harmon
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Rewriting the truth
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:48:21
EID:7c06 22437e00
MSGID: 1:3652/1 32F6A31E
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> You think everyone needs to use the King James, perhaps? How fundy
of
AS> you.
KY> Well, it is the most accurate version, after all.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You misspelled "One True".
... Have I found God? What, did you lose him AGAIN?
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
* Origin: [The Dark Corner] Still Spitting 'Fire' (1:3652/1)
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|From: Jason Harmon
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Why do you NEED to be saved?
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:48:21
EID:9f8a 22437e00
MSGID: 1:3652/1 32F6A31F
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Martin Goldberg <=-
KY> Okay, you want to know why you need to be saved? Really, I think the
KY> answer is simple, but I will go on anyway.. Simply put, you need to
be
KY> saved so you will have everlasting life in Heaven. To be saved is to
KY> be saved from your sins, which doom you to Hell.
Any evidence for these places called Heaven and Hell?
... The Vogon ship hung in the air in precisely the same way bricks don't.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 02 Feb 97 22:56:00
EID:0d17 2242b700
MSGID: 1:3800/49 00101b37
DC>What the fuck are you quoting?
Something Al said...
DC>Try setting your OLR into doing something that is quotable.
Yessir....
DC>I leave it for you _AS_ what was sent above or your lack of
DC>writing skills in using 'as' and capitalizing all of them.
But I didn't write that. Lighten up. You're behaving like a simpleton
which I don't think you are. So, what's "really" bugging you? Jesus can
fix
that little problem ya know? The acrimonious response you just blasted
away
with would not even occur to you if you had the peace in your heart that
the
Holy Spirit can provide. "Charity", my friend. Try it. You will feel
much
better. You will not feel the need to come in here and speak this way to
people that have done nothing to deliberately offend you. This unmitigated
indignation that you express is unhealthy. I realize that you may "think"
that speaking in such impertinent and impious terms from behind a keyboard
to
people that cannot or will not touch you is a good stress reliever. Not
so.
In the long run it only does harm. You are going to give yourself a stroke,
man. Chill out.
I Corinthians:
13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not;
charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not
easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a The trick in overcoming temptation, is to play dead.
* Origin: Tequilla Sunrise BBS (504)756-0383, Baton Rouge, LA (1:3800/49)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Re: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:13:00
EID:3171 2242b9a0
MSGID: 1:3800/49 00101b3b
DG>A loud, shouted "AMEN!"
and a similarly resounding thanks! :)
DG>David Worrell, if you are reading this too, I urge you to repent.
He will read it. What's more, he will listen one day too. Hopefully
that day will not be, "Judgement Day," when he hears it from one that will
ask him, "why didn't you listen?" When it will be... too late. I have
something for you, Brother. Send me your address in email to: Tequila
Sunrise BBS @ 1-504-756-0383. I don't think they have internet e-mail.
Anyway, I think you will like my little weekly newsletter. I would be
interested in hearing your suggestions for improvements. If you like, I
can
put you on the mailing list to get it every week. My Church is working
on
buying new property at present as we have outgrown our building. Any ideas
for fund raising? My puny tithes just aren't getting it. :) Can't wait
'til
my computer business get's off the ground. :) Then my Wife and I can get
into some serious stuff, ie; funding missionaries, building Churches,
distributing my writing etc.
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a The ultimate Turn on. When they shoot at you.. and miss!
* Origin: Tequilla Sunrise BBS (504)756-0383, Baton Rouge, LA (1:3800/49)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:30:00
EID:fa22 2242bbc0
MSGID: 1:3800/49 00101b3e
DC>So, Jonathan, why didn't your godling, with all the powers
DC>of his father, save himself?
John:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not
is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
You savvy?
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a The universe is laughing behind your back
* Origin: Tequilla Sunrise BBS (504)756-0383, Baton Rouge, LA (1:3800/49)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:39:00
EID:fa22 2242bce0
MSGID: 1:3800/49 00101b41
DC>You are talking about a revolution occurring in which there are
DC>only 2 swords to handle at least a legion of Roman soldiers.
DC>Your godling was an idiot, at best.
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners
delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof:
behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto
you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand,
and
no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none
of
my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear
cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh
as a
whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call
upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall
not
find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the
LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a The worst thing about censorship is __________.
* Origin: Tequilla Sunrise BBS (504)756-0383, Baton Rouge, LA (1:3800/49)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 23:59:00
EID:fa22 2242bf60
MSGID: 1:3800/49 00101b44
DC>Don't you have a clue as to why the ' "s ' are there, fundy?
DC>And, do have a clue as to what 'hypocrisy' actually means?
I think he does. Also consider this:
Job 20:5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the
hypocrite but for a moment
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a Their are trhee things wrong here.
* Origin: Tequilla Sunrise BBS (504)756-0383, Baton Rouge, LA (1:3800/49)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 00:06:00
EID:fa22 224300c0
MSGID: 1:3800/49 00101b47
DC>That would be a start. At least at that point you will start
DC>to realize that you have been played hook, line and sinker
DC>as a fool.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother
without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and
whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger
of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be
in danger of hell fire.
Good thing for you he is not your brother, huh? :I
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a There is one God, but which one is He?
* Origin: Tequilla Sunrise BBS (504)756-0383, Baton Rouge, LA (1:3800/49)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 00:44:00
EID:fa22 22430580
MSGID: 1:3800/49 00101b4a
DC>"Poor taste"? Seems like this fundy needs a bit of seasoning.
DC>From what I've read from him, the only thing small around
DC>here is his mind.
Don,
If you are actually his intellectual superior, why not impart wisdom to
him
instead of only showing vain contempt?
Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more
hope of a fool than of him.
In fact, why don't you show _all_ of us fundies a thing or three?
I Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth
to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he
may be wise.
Show for once, without profanity and meritless scorn how we _should_ think.
Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and
a
man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Reveal this great life philosophy of yours that is suppose to be superior
to
God's own counsel.
Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a
companion of fools shall be destroyed.
The ball is in your court, Don. If you are so intelligent, we will know
it
by the fruit of your intellect. We will seek your counsel if you can teach
us instead of incessantly reviling us.
Ecclesiastes 2:16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of
the
fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to
come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man?
as the fool.
Solomon is remembered for his wisdom. How do you want to be remembered,
Don?
As it stands now, you will be remembered in here only as the man that cussed
out the Christians every chance he got.
Ecclesiastes 8:1 Who is as the wise man? and who knoweth the
interpretation of a thing? a man's wisdom maketh his face
to shine, and the boldness of his face shall be changed.
Let us see your face, Don. Not the one that hides behind acrimonious
diatribes that are conducive to nothing. The one that wants to really get
to
the matter of a serious intelligent exchange of thoughts and ideals.
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a There once was a [ ] from [ ] whose [ ] was
* Origin: Tequilla Sunrise BBS (504)756-0383, Baton Rouge, LA (1:3800/49)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Around the World in 80 P
|Date: 03 Feb 97 00:57:00
EID:5202 22430720
MSGID: 1:3800/49 00101b4d
DC>All that it means is that god let's you die on this world and
DC>takes you to a life in heaven that _doesn't_ last forever.
The _present_ Heaven won't last. That is _really_ what this scripture
means. If you want to learn how to interpret scripture instead of attack
it
out of fear, I can refer you to some good lesson sources. In the meantime,
you are not showing yourself to be more intelligent that us fundies with
these thinly veiled attempts to discredit that which you know so little
of.
Why are you doing this?
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there
was no more sea.
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a These things on my nose aren't just for show.
* Origin: Tequilla Sunrise BBS (504)756-0383, Baton Rouge, LA (1:3800/49)
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|From: Leonard Bernier
|To: Dan Cappa
|Sub: hello
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:18:00
EID:ead9 22436a40
PID: PDQMail v2.60 RE0333
PRAISE GOD !
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have but everlasting life."
Our light affliction, which is but for for a moment, is working for us a
far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory. (2 Cor. 4:17)
* Origin: 1:225/364
Jesus Saves North Bay, ONT.
--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
* Origin: Far Point Station (1:225/364)
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|From: Leonard Bernier
|To: All
|Sub: Psalm 38:11 / Luke 23:49
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:53:00
EID:45ef 22436ea0
PID: PDQMail v2.60 RE0333
PRAISE GOD !
PROPHECY: - The Messiah's friend will stand afar off.
"My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague, and my relatives
stand afar off."
FULFILLMENT: "And all his acquaintance and the women who accompanied Him
from Galilee, were standing at a distance [from the events of Jesus
death], seeing these things."
Our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far
more exceeding and eternal weight of glory.
Jesus Saves North Bay, ONT.
--- DLG Pro v1.0/PDQMail v2.60
* Origin: Far Point Station (1:225/364)
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|From: Jonathan Fingas
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:57:28
EID:c78a 2243af20
MSGID: 1:163/215.0 32f6a598
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32eb6ebd
JF> another 1/3rd is what I'd call semi-Christian,
JF> that is they believe in
JF> God, Jesus and the whole thing, but do little to actually adhere to
JF> the principles or show their faith in some way.
DW> That's nice. Got any more evidence to support this
DW> claim than you do the claim that God exists?
What do you want? I've already given a chunk right here.
DW> Your say-so doesn't cut it little man. Give references.
So of course, when I actually DO give evidence, he refutes it. A little
hypocritical!
And in case you need to know, all those were from a long TV special on real-life
miracles on TLC. A little syrupy, but also a little hard to deny, since
they show before/after pictures (in the case of that swollen leg thing),
and talk to the doctors and scientists who couldn't explain the given miracle.
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: BitByters BBS, Rockland ON, Can. (613)446-7773 v34, (1:163/215)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: ...
|Date: 02 Feb 97 17:00:00
EID:a05e 22428800
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
LB> So, were my half a decade's worth of prayers unanswered
LB> because God thought
LB> I'd get bored with not having to watch every second for the next
KY> blow?
KY> ALl prayers are answered, just maybe not as we might prefer or expect.
Ken, you're really gonna be sorry you said that. Trust me on this
one.
... He who dies with the most TAGLINES wins!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BABY IN CRITICAL COND
|Date: 02 Feb 97 17:19:00
EID:c975 22428a60
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
MB> The truly interesting thing is the local fundy who told us that
MB> killing all the newborns at S&G was an act of mercy. Since they
MB> died before they were old enough to understand what evil was,
MB> they were immediately and automatically sent to Heaven.
That is the position of many Protestant denominations, including
Al's.
MB> I pointed out to him that he had just given the most compelling
MB> argument imaginable for MANDATORY ABORTION!
Absolutely. Also for my suggestion to kill children before
they reach the age of accountability.
MB> Al is truly losing it. I have told him several times that he
MB> totally lacks compassion. Now it is here for everybody to see
MB> for themselves.
But killing them IS the compassionate thing. It's hard to get into
Heaven (according to the bible), so chances are anyone reaching
adulthood will end up in Hell.
... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: IT'S A BOY!
|Date: 02 Feb 97 17:57:00
EID:8875 22428f20
-=> Quoting Lee Woofenden to All <=-
LW> My wife and I have a new baby boy, born Thursday, January 30. Mother
LW> and baby
LW> are fine. (We also have a 7 year old daughter and an 18 month old
LW> son).
Congratulations! But is he real, or do you only imagine he's real?
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: J.J. NEEDS TO BE HITT
|Date: 02 Feb 97 18:01:00
EID:edd9 22429020
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to David Ragland <=-
DR> AS Well, Dave, here is an answer where I might lose your friendship,
DR> but I AS have to answer honestly. I don't think so. I more or less
DC> hold
DR> the Garden AS of Eden story to be a metaphor, and I don't think
DR> humanity and the AS dinosaurs ever coexisted. I pretty much believe
DC> in
DC> What the fuck are you quoting?
DC> Try setting your OLR into doing something that is quotable.
DC> I leave it for you _AS_ what was sent above or your lack of
DC> writing skills in using 'as' and capitalizing all of them.
He's quoting Al Schroeder. And this is the same David Ragland who
was just telling us how intelligent he is.
And yet he can't get an OLR to work correctly...
ROTFL!
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: NAKED PAGAN RITUALS
|Date: 02 Feb 97 18:07:00
EID:d821 224290e0
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Ronald Vass <=-
KY> May be just a tagline, but I had to respond.. In my Bible it says:
KY> The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they
KY> are born, speaking lies.
KY> Nowhere does it say babies will go to Hell.. Rather it is
KY> reemphasizing that we are born with a wicked nature.. But, babies do
KY> not go to Hell, simply because they are not at the age of
KY> accountability yet.
Oh? Where does it say that, exactly? Chapter and verse, please.
Because otherwise, it's just tradition, not Gospel. And the verse
above would lead to dead (wicked) babies going to Hell.
Your next action will be to demonstrate the fundy shuffle for us.
... I know a good tagline when I steal one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: OMNI-SADISTIC
|Date: 02 Feb 97 18:21:00
EID:4be2 224292a0
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> But Al, you started it, by claiming God was experiencing the rape
RH> because of it. Are you retracting omnipresent then?
MB> See! There he goes again. I really don't see how you can see
MB> you have a real clue to what he believes.
Ah, he's in damage control mode, that's all. I do know
what he's SUPPOSED to believe, and picking at the differences
is very helpful in breaking off chunks of the Armor.
MB> And, notice also how he chops off enough of the context so you
MB> don't readily realize that he has backpedaled to the extent that
MB> he has.
He can't fool me that way. I have my eye on him.
Al's quandary is in trying to start from "The Truth" and make
science fit it. It can't be done; the Universe is far stranger
than ignorant sheepherders could ever have imagined.
My hope is that he's honest enough to realize it eventually.
... A beautiful theory, killed by a nasty, ugly, little fact.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: REWRITING THE TRUTH
|Date: 02 Feb 97 18:26:00
EID:a93d 22429340
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> You think everyone needs to use the King James, perhaps? How fundy
AS> of you.
KY> Well, it is the most accurate version, after all..
Bwahhhhahahahahahahahaha!
What makes you think so? Do you realize the English language has
changed so much that a perfect translation (then) is wrong NOW?
... Logic 101: Do not endeavor to prove negatives. Unless you're an idiot.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: O'god
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: Brain Dead Believer
|Date: 01 Feb 97 12:26:10
EID:952e 22416340
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F37DE2
DR> AS mine is 6700 Cabot Dr. Apt. J3, Nashville, TN 37209.
DR> Talk about your little miracles! I was just going to ask you for your
All the kids, rape & killed today, is a God miracle.
DR> address. I want to send you a copy of my newsletter so as to get
DR> some good,objective criticism. You will in turn have mine when you
You preach to a believer for Objective Criticism, cute. What your
really hopeing for is a pat on the back.
DR> get the letter.BTW, pretty brave of you to post this on here. :)
For a GOD BELIEVER who controls the mind of his God. It's no
big deal. Hell, if you can control how a god believes and acts,
whats a simple protoplasm body going to do to such a powerful
person ?
** The Trouble with liveing sacrifices **
** is they keep crawing off the altar. **
* SFEMB 0.41 [?] | Greetings from Rev. Satan. Live long & prosper.
* BBS TCode: -Devil-
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: ?
|Date: 01 Feb 97 11:50:00
EID:7d7f 22415e40
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F55543
From: ROBERT CURRY
To: MIMI MILSTEIN
Subj: ?
-
RC> RC> You used the phrase "naked cruelty," as a matter of fact.
RC> MM> You just proved my point - you DID forget the beginning
RC> MM> of the thread.
While i was out beating the bushs looking for a Harry Truman
walking around mountain tops with a local creation fundy. I can across
a Mini van that was slipping down the side of another mountain
being assisted by a Harpy and an abacus.
Additional comments are prefaced by RFV.
****
Date: 12-30-96 (21:49)
From: MIMI MILSTEIN
To: RONALD VASS
Subj: enochban.rit
-
Hello Ronald!
Ronald Vass wrote about Michael Hardy:
RV> As far as any in the modem land knows, his wife, may have
....RFV....snip all my great pose..RFV.....
You really are a vicious jerk, aren't your?
-RFV-
**** - Mini van jumps out - ****
**** - Covered in war paint - ****
-RFV-
Date: 01-02-97 (18:36)
From: RONALD VASS
To: MIMI MILSTEIN
Subj: ?
>RV> together. What Mike 'The Pea Brain' believes and what
>RV> happens to 'pea brain', in the long run, only time will
>RV> tell.
MM>You really are a vicious jerk, aren't your?
Can't appear to be sucking up to Mike, now can I?
****
Date: 01-06-97 (09:28)
From: MIMI MILSTEIN
To: RONALD VASS
Subj: ?
-
[replying to your incredible tactless guesswork concerning
Michael's sick wife]
MM> You really are a vicious jerk, aren't your?
RV> Can't appear to be sucking up to Mike, now can I?
.RFV.........RFV...
RV> It will also be { his }-Right- to do so.
What 'grabbed my chain' was your naked cruelty - but then you
actually (unwillingly?) gave your motive away in another msg:
RV> I will await with baited breath, for the evidence of a soul.
RFV---I forgot about Mini dragging in a comment from another
- message with a totally different human. I was right,
- dealing with this topic it was the Mini van that
- fired a 'SOUL' shot first---RFV
- Feb 2 1997 -RFV-
This is only too true. BAIT is your prime mover, and SOUL seems
to be an alien commodity to you... regardless of how much you
hurt your correspondents. I will bet 'Empathy' and/or 'Draw the
Line' is not embroidered on any of your shirt pockets.
RFV--- So we got a Mini van, tossing out "BAIT", "SOUL" , "alien
commodity" and haveing strange writeings embroidered on shirt
pockets-----RFV- Feb 2 1997
****
Date: 01-09-97 (23:11)
From: RONALD VASS
To: MIMI MILSTEIN
Subj: ? S O U L ?
-RFV-
Change the topic again, picking up on the Mini van
topic of "SOUL" which she brought in.
-RFV- Feb 2 1997
****
* SLMR 2.1a * +Origin: Little Pricks! Brawley's Quantum Condoms.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Harpy correcting Mini van
|Date: 01 Feb 97 12:03:00
EID:4617 22416060
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F55545
LB> MM> Lynda Bustilloz wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
> LB> Ron wasn't on target with his comment to Michael, so it
> LB> qualifies as a misfire, but not as a comment that was not
> LB> allowable or beyond the standards of Holysmoke as a whole.
LB>For clarification: The above is a statement of opinion on my part,
LB>not an assumption. Have you anything specific to dispute about it?
Hell, she step on a hornets nest and now she's crying because
she got stung.
* SLMR 2.1a * ... < Women's virtue is man's greatest invention.> ...
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Harpy Math ?
|Date: 02 Feb 97 16:21:00
EID:05bc 224282a0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F55546
LB> AS> Make your bids NOW...
LB> AS> Being earthbound, I used "size" and "mass" more or less
LB> AS> interchangeably.
LB>hehe, so a pound of feathers and a pound of gold carry the same mass????
You did mean size or volume ? yes ?
LB>I think you used to work for some of the moving companies we've had try
to
LB>pack our things.
One must never pack books in a sea chest. Movers will hate you
for it.
* SLMR 2.1a * ... Keyboard Not Found. Press F1 to Continue ...
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:26:00
EID:e737 2242ab40
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F55547
DC>-> On 27 Jan 97 05:33:47, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> AS> little girl, no matter what it depended on.
DC> DC> Such as the pro-life(???) xians can bomb abortion clinics because
DC> DC> their religion says that it's "evil"?
DC> AS> There I would blame the bomber.
DC> AS> So, I think, also does God.
DC>Why doesn't your god better and prevent the acts from ever
DC>happening?
You got a good one there Dan. Al's God could let the bomber, make
and plant his bomb. Then when the bomber set it up, all the
'fineing tuneing god' needs to do is stop a simple chemical reaction.
No mind rape of bomber. No mind rape of victum. No damage done.
Kind of shows where Al's God really rides on this love and careing
jag that Al talks about.
{ God of Love And Respect } ---- Not a chance ----
[1] Numbers 31:17-18
"Now therefore kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who hath known man by
lying with him. But all the women children, that
have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive
for yourselves."
No careing for the weak nor rapeing of the young.
* SLMR 2.1a * ....I'm Not Born Again! Mon Got It Right The First Time!
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:38:00
EID:729d 2242acc0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F55548
JF> DC> The bit about the 2 swords slowing down the legionaires has
JF> DC> to be the icing on the cake!
JF> So what is a non-fundy supposed to do? Say the Bible (or parts of
it) are
JF>lie?
If it looks like a lie, reads like a lie, it could be a lie.
JF> You have the most screwed up definition of what a fundy is.
So brainless thinking isn't a sign of a fundy ?
JF> What's supposed to be so funny about the swords? You wouldn't continue
to
JF>charge after someone who's brandishing a gun, would you? Don't think
so.
A person who doesn't know of the difference between what humans call
a Gun and a Sword, usually it's a good sign of, Fundy lack of thinking.
So you have any Evidence that the god group had guns ? Fuck the guns.
How about gun powder.
* SLMR 2.1a * ...The Popemobile: proof prayer doesn't work.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:45:00
EID:729d 2242ada0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F55549
JF> DW> Jesus had to be *protected* from mere mortals? Is that
JF> DW> what you're really trying to say?
JF> So what would a peaceful deity gain from smiting enemies with lightning
bo
JF>or otherwise protecting himself? Nothing. Therefore, he gave way.
So your God can't even travel through time to safety ? Not much of a
God. Hell, even a human baby can do time travel.
* SLMR 2.1a * ...and this chalk line is the guy who broke in one night
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:47:00
EID:729d 2242ade0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F5554A
JF> JF> The Bible is the only thing we have for proof,
JF> JF> and I'm content to
JF> JF> believe it.
JF> DW> The Bible is no more proof than the Koran, the Rig
JF> DW> Vedas, or any other holy book. It does not suffice.
JF> Neither does most of what you say.
Show him wrong or is it a case, You Can't.
* SLMR 2.1a * ...file not found.Backup Is Zap.Sure U Don't Want A Drink
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:48:00
EID:729d 2242ae00
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F5554B
JF> Who the heck is Mr. Pot? Do you mean marijuana?
That's the only Pot I know.
So you can't cook, either ?
* SLMR 2.1a * .666 caliber of the beast
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Al S. *-* Fine tuneing & dead God Site *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:54:00
EID:729d 2242aec0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F5554C
Date: 01-30-97 (21:30) From: JONATHAN FINGAS To: JUDITH BANDSMA
JF>-=> Jonathan Fingas spoke thusly to Dan Ceppa <=-
JF> JF> read that previous message about swearing, and quite frankly you
seem
JF> JF> to be the worst excuse for a human being there is.
JF> JB> You seem to yell at
JF> JB> You think Dan is bad? (Why do these yahoos bring out the worst in
me?)
JF> JB> I've been needing someone to scream at for about a week now. You'll
do.
JF> Whereas I have only wanted to scream at people like you, who automatically
JF>brand people and jump into arguments for no other reason than to work
out th
JF>anger.
JF> JB> It's YOU who needs to go back and read the bible, little boy.
JF> JB> Now...FUCK OFF, ASSHOLE.
JF> JB> There, that's better.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JF> Not really. Swearing shows a small vocabulary and poor taste.
^^^^^^^^^^
Perhaps not for you. Why do you make a claim that swearing, indicates
a "small Vocabulary and poor taste."? You don't even know Judith, yet.
Did your god tell you that?
* SLMR 2.1a * 2 HOURS to bury a dog?? Well, it wasn't dead
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: O_jesus_fucking_christ
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: F U N D Y A L E R T
|Date: 03 Feb 97 01:24:47
EID:22cd 22430b00
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F58CE7
JF> By the way, personal attacks can get you kicked out of this forum,
JF> so I'dsuggest you come up with something other than lame name-calling.
R I G H T. Another F U N D Y stunt. Asshole -- Fuck up
piece of shit --
There you go. Now bitch to the moderator about name calling.
* SFEMB 0.41 [?] | Killing / War / Rape / Murder =>see Reglion<=
* BBS TCode: -Devil-
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical.Virgins are. (1:221/1503)
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|From: O_jesus_fucking_christ
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: F U N D Y A L E R T
|Date: 03 Feb 97 01:45:37
EID:6666 22430da0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F58CE8
JF> DH> Now, where is your evidence? Was the universe created in
JF> DH> six twenty-four hour days?
JF>
JF> Was it created over 20 billion years? No one can prove that, and
JF> I'mcontent with my belief. You can stick to whatever you want.
Does the Holy Book of Lies indicate 20 billion
years. If not, why did you pull up that value ?
Another F U N D Y S T U N T ... is stupid statements ...
like prove it. Very few things are 100% , try E V I D E N C E
to back up your statements.
The sun may appear to rise in the eastern skys tomorrow
but i have NO Proof, that it will. There is evidence to
show that the sun likely will perform as usual though.
* SFEMB 0.41 [?] | Hitler was a Christian
* BBS TCode: -Devil-
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical.Virgins are. (1:221/1503)
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|From: God_and_brain_dead_fundy
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Re: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 01:57:45
EID:2bb1 22430f20
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F58CE9
JF> DC> Nope, it looks like you don't want to look at what your dongma
JF> DC> has become, let alone know about where it came from.
JF>
JF> I didn't say I liked what it had become (or rather, parts of it).
JF> But Iknow where it came from - Israel. Any person on their soapbox
JF> (even on one asflimsy as yours) can see that.
Another fundy stunt, is the fucking nut cases think their
reglion, started in - "Israel" -
With god followers like this, it's no wonder they had to kill
to get the myth off the ground.
JF> * Origin: BitByters BBS, Rockland ON, Can. (613)446-7773 v34,
What a SHAME that Canada has assholes like this.
* SFEMB 0.41 [?] | Devil's Advocate <519>
* BBS TCode: -Devil-
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical.Virgins are. (1:221/1503)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Educational Experience
|Date: 03 Feb 97 12:49:50
EID:a83a 22436620
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 6c9a71c8
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32eed76c
On (29 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> JS> But slandering an entire group of human beings just because of their
JS> JS> ideology or beliefs is OK, isn't it Ceppa...
JS> RS> You make the assumption that Christians are deserving of being
JS> RS> recognised as human.
JS> RS> How silly of you, Jim.
JS> I see. If not, then what?
RS> I believe that the quotation is from one of the US's greatest
RS> men:
RS> Those who deny the rights of others deserve them not for
RS> themselves.
RS> I'm sure you can correct the quotation. I don't have a relevant
RS> quotation guide to check the exact wording of, Jefferson's (I
RS> believe) quote.
I have no problem with the quote. I just want an answer to my question
JS> Why are you so bigoted against one segment of society, Rod?
RS> No, not a segment of society. Only certain Christians. The ones
RS> who would deprive me of life, liberty, property, freedom, or rights.
RS> Those people deserve a similar and equally damning opposition to
RS> their agenda of hatred.
What has any of this to do with not recognizing Christians as human?
RS> You are a person that holds such an agenda of hatred, Jim.
RS> ...you really should give up your Jesus-inspired hatred
And you, sir, are an ignorant liar! You know nothing of me, and
certainly from your post, you know nothing of the inspiration of Jesus.
... and pulling back on the stick makes the cow smaller...
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: the promise keepers
|Date: 03 Feb 97 12:53:16
EID:de1e 224366a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 9cf05f1f
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32eeda02
On (29 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> RS> Ah, bull crap, Jim. It's in it for the money. Tens of thousands
JS> RS> of people paying at least $50 is MILLIONS of dollars of income.
JS> RS> And the cost of the events are really small in comparison to the
JS> RS> income generated.
JS> Evidence of this alleged 'profit'?
RS> The dozens of critical reports into the financing of such scams
RS> as the Promisekeepers. Stadiums don't cost millions of dollars
RS> to hire for a day. Probably, conservatively, maybe $50,000.
RS> Care to give your local stadium a call and ask how much they
RS> charged the Promisefilth last time they were there?
Can't answer my question above, can you.
JS> Evidence of this alleged 'profit'?
RS> Has been provided.
You are merely a blatant liar evidencing only his own ignorance and
penchant for shooting of his mouth with nothing to back it up with,
fact-wise.
JS> Plus administration: (1 Cor 9:14 NIV) In the same way, the Lord has
JS> commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living
JS> from the gospel.
RS> Given the highly inflated estimate I gave of $750,000 being used
RS> out of the generated $3.75 million per event (based on 75,000
RS> people at $50 ticket), their expenses would be about 22%.
RS> Why would an organisation need 78% for administration?
Evidence other than mere assumption on your part? BTW, my scripture
quote above makes no mention on what standard that living is to be
based.
RS> And they should receive their *living* from the gospel. I'm sure
RS> that's a basic provision (food, water, shelter, basic ministry
RS> administration and employees), not lavish homes, holidays,
RS> travel, women, and cars :)
Evidence?
JS> Mine was free. A kind brother covered the cost as well as lodging.
RS> But someone paid. If the Promisekeepers are so *honest*, they'd
RS> be fair, and just, and make the cost of attending such
RS> conferences be based SOLELY upon cost-recovery for the operation
RS> of the conference.
Sounds to me like they do.
RS> Not with the 78% profit-taking by the religious scammers running
RS> the show.
Evidence?
JS> RS> Rod "and besides, the promisefilth are hateful bigots anyway!"
Swift
JS> RS> :)
JS> I don't know about this 'promise filth', but Rod Swift sure is, as
JS> evidence by his previous post.
RS> Do you know how much money from the Promisekeepers was rerouted
RS> into supporting the push for Colorado Amendment 2?
No. Do you? Do I care? What is this 'amendment 2'? How does it affect
you in any way?
... Why buy shampoo when real poo is still free?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 03 Feb 97 12:59:31
EID:688a 22436760
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 88b5f95f
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ef28a2
On (29 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> Describe this alleged 'healthy pride'?
RS> Positive self-image, self-esteem, self-value, self-worth.
You have done well. Now which of the above do you lack (and why) that
makes you so hateful towards Christians? Everything above comes from
within. It is called 'self-affirmation'. Do you have the opinion that
by putting your lies on me that you are building yourself up?
... Passed my urine test! Hit the bulls-eye 4 out of 5 times!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Well, women?
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:03:01
EID:3242 22436860
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 70c77264
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ef2f00
On (29 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> * On 13-01-97 at 19:05, JIM STAAL wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
RS> on the topic of "Well, women?" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> FR> You are a Promisekeeper, mouthing off in hate.
JS> Hmmmm...wherein do you find hate in the 7 promises of the Promise
JS> Keepers [tm]?
RS> In the same place that you can read:
RS> "...to keep our families strong"
RS> can you read the hate in":
RS> "...to keep our race strong"
Where do you find this?
RS> It is the Promisekeeper's "our way, or no way" xenophobic
RS> supremacism that is hateful.
Where do you find this?
... I will sing a dirge in your honor and wear your skin with pride.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Stupid Staal Fiascoes
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:03:47
EID:64ff 22436860
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 712ad2e9
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32f186aa
On (31 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> * On 19-01-97 at 12:32, JIM STAAL wrote to DAN CEPPA,
RS> on the topic of "Stupid Staal Fiascoes" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> FR> I am condemning no one. The homosexual who sexually practices
JS> FR> his homosexuality condemns himself." - Jim Staal
JS> DC> Shit, that blows a current message he just sent right out
JS> DC> of the water.
JS> Which current message might that be?
RS> The one in which you challenge Fredric to provide some posts of
RS> yours that show your homohatred.
Which current message might that be?
... * Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Y...BANG! NO TERRIER
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Buttfuck Staal
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:04:20
EID:58ee 22436880
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 22196a97
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32f18d18
On (31 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> * On 18-01-97 at 09:10, JIM STAAL wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
RS> on the topic of "Buttfuck Staal" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> FR> By the way: Have any evidence for this "Christ" construct of yours,
JS> FR> buttfuck? Any at all?
JS> Have any evidence to support your judgements of me in regard to being
a
JS> 'buttf**k'?
RS> Oh yes, we are mistaken. He's the product of Mary's body trying
RS> to spontaneously abort.
Wow! I guess you really answered my question, alright...
... House? The computer room is attached to a house?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Educational Experience
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:04:49
EID:a83a 22436880
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 8f149c29
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32f18d56
On (31 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> * On 18-01-97 at 09:30, JIM STAAL wrote to AL SCHROEDER,
RS> on the topic of "Educational Experience" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> yeah, and Jim Staal not only recognizes gays as human, but even
JS> JS> befriends them. Go figure...
JS> AS> Good to know.
JS> Good to have someone besides me recognize it. :)
RS> Jeez, with all your lovey-dovey behaviour, you'd be thinking you
RS> were in a sexual relationship with Al.
Which part of the message did you get that from, and why did you ignore
my statement above?
... It's better to be wanted for murder than not to be wanted at all...
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:06:20
EID:82ee 224368c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 980effb4
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f3b6b4
On (01 Feb 97) Ken Young wrote to Jim Staal...
JK> Just like fundies say that Jim Jones and David Koresh aren't
JK> of thier ilk? A true fundie seems to think that no
JS> matter how vile and
JK> evil thier own actions they are 'saved' and thus forgiven.
JS> I know nothing of these 'fundies' of which you speak. I do know,
JS> however, that individuals who make claims of being the returned Messiah
JS> are no Christians.
KY> Oh, I agree completely.. However, at least with Koresh, he never
KY> claimed to be the Messiah.
I was under the impression (from reading much about the man and his
claims - he attracted my attention by being a musician and songwriter)
that he claimed to be God incarnate.
... Let them learn first to shew piety at home. - 1 Timothy 5:4
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Pedophile Christian cooks / NAMBLA
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:07:33
EID:84b7 224368e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 2a265de8
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 74961069
On (31 Jan 97) Martin Goldberg wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> (just to assist in getting your personal goat)
MG> Is a personal goat anything like a personal savior?
No.
... He that denieth the faith, and is worse than an infidel. - 1 Tim. 5:8
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Planned freewill
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:07:46
EID:80ce 224368e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 84e1ccba
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 74961347
On (31 Jan 97) Martin Goldberg wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> 'walking Bible') but when I discovered him making his
JS> 'astounding predictions' based on scripture taken out of
JS> context, I dropped it.
MG> Is he related to Appleton.
No, I'm not aware of it...
... Abstain from all appearence of evil. (1 The 5:22)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Pedophile Christian cooks / NAMBLA
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:09:11
EID:02b0 22436920
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 a624f43e
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f29a60
On (01 Feb 97) Dave Hamilton wrote to Jim Staal...
DH> About a message of Jim Staal to Dave Hamilton:
DH> FR>> "Mabon" is actually Jim Staal- it's one of his racist
DH> personalities.
DH> DH>> I wonder if he realizes that his comedy doesn't get through.
JS> Wasn't intended for comedy, jsut getting Freddie's goat.
DH> Gee, I read every post here, having lots of time. Perhaps you
DH> should give this some thought. I can't see any difference whatsoever
DH> between this Mabon character and the CRC. None.
For one, I don't think Mabon is a Calvinist. :) Also, articles appearing
in the official publication of the church (The Banner) take just the
opposite approach of mister Mabon concerning gay issues.
DH> DH>>The conscriptions and indoctrinations go fine. It's the
DH> percentage of DH>> the subject's life thereafter which is almost
DH> completely fucked up DH>> that ensues that needs to be considered.
JS> What is the percentage and what evidence do you have to support this
JS> claim?
DH> I have no idea.
Precisely my point.
DH> What I did to determine the validity of the CRC
DH> high schools was to call the university where I teach and ask them
DH> how many students had ever in 30 years been accepted from CRC high
DH> schools. This isn't scientific, but it is the university one of my
DH> kids wants to attend. Answer: zero.
And that university is...? Relevance?
DH> What evidence do you have that parochial schools can, even on average,
DH> graduate students equally prepared as public school students for real
DH> universities? I don't mean CRC seminaries, I mean accredited
DH> universities who offer degrees sufficient to enter graduate school.
That can be obtained. The evidence that I have seen suggests that in
West Michigan, the education receive in our schools consistantly
surpasses that of the local public schools.
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:13:16
EID:73e2 224369a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 3b5b9e0a
REPLY: 1:229/622 32f29c26
On (01 Feb 97) Dave Hamilton wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> What people do behind closed doors is, in my opinion, their biz.
DH> So then, do you actively support their right to do that under law,
DH> or actively stop them from doing it by law? Which?
Yes. I currently oppose the drug laws in my state. As far as sexual
issues, they are not an issue here.
JS> But
JS> to take what is declared wrong and say openly that it is right, I
JS> can't agree with.
DH> Yes, well, we're not talking philosophical games here, we're talking
DH> laws that have an effect on people's lives. Which?
I'm not talking philosophy here, either. My statement above is perfectly
clear.
DH> Do the laws of the bible equal the laws of the land?
Obviously not or we wouldn't be murdering helpless infants by the
millions annually...
DH> Should they?
As a Christian, I say definitly. As an American, I have to say no. I
would rather have God bring about a moral revival in the hearts of the
people than have Congress legislate our personal lives.
DH> Do
DH> you have the balls to state your position?
Obviously.
... Many false prophets shall rise, and shall decieve many. (Matt 24:11)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:19:13
EID:43af 22436a60
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 62782d5e
REPLY: 1:372/62.0 8A825B35
On (29 Jan 97) Judith Bandsma wrote to Al Schroeder...
-=> Al Schroeder spoke thusly to Michael Hardy <=-
AS> BTW, everybody reading this, go to Lynda's web page...there are two
AS> midi files WRITTEN by Mike, one for the main page, and one for the HS
AS> page. Good stuff.
JB> Wouldn't it be absolutely lovely if you could allow people to take
JB> credit for their own accomplishments?
JB> Besides the fact that this had nothing to do with the topic at hand,
JB> I know for a fact that you were NOT asked to be the herald of this
JB> achievement.
JB> Trying to take credit for others' works again, Al?
And they call Lynda 'cattybtch'. ;) It would be interesting to know if
Judy would even think you could fart right.
... * Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Yap Yip Yip Y...BANG! NO TERRIER
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:20:39
EID:62ce 22436a80
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 bca9fdad
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32eee342
On (29 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Domino...
RS> * On 10-01-97 at 18:02, DOMINO wrote to JIM STAAL,
RS> on the topic of "Oops, Caught Again" in echo Holysmoke:
DO> Jim, having seen Dan during his little streak, remarked:
DO> JS> What evidence do you have to make such an accusation?
DO> What evidence do you have to say that Jesus was male and the Bible is
DO> an accurate reference for anything besides the beleifs and practices
DO> of Christianity?
RS> Domino... Let's make a pact to destroy Staalin here :) :) I'm
RS> sure that having two "sexually-challenged" individuals chasing
RS> after him would be a riotous laugh :)
Trust me, you wouldn't be able to keep up.
RS> I'm
RS> sure that having two "sexually-challenged" individuals chasing
Why do you refer to yourself as such? Some sort of 'self-esteem'
problem? I have a song just for you. It is called 'Love yourself/Love
your neighbor' (c 1995 James N. Staal) It is very biblical and applies
righteously to your personality.
... For in Him we live, and move, and have our being. - Acts 17:28
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Educational Experience
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:23:25
EID:a83a 22436ae0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 1f9d49dd
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ef1e42
On (29 Jan 97) Rod Swift wrote to Al Schroeder...
RS> * On 11-01-97 at 22:01, AL SCHROEDER wrote to JIM STAAL,
RS> on the topic of "Educational Experience" in echo Holysmoke:
AS> RS> You make the assumption that Christians are deserving of being
AS> RS> recognised as human.
AS> RS> How silly of you, Jim.
AS> JS> I see. If not, then what? Why are you so bigoted against one segment
AS> JS> of society, Rod?
AS> Ahhhh, but you can't call it "bigotry," Jim. Despite the fact that
he
AS> often complains about bigoted treatment towards gays, Rod would doubtless
AS> be incensed to know he is doing THE EXACT SAME THING to another
AS> group...and just as mindlessly, just as prejudicially.
RS> Sorry, but I have a legitimate concern that is quite logically
RS> emulated into action.
I'm sure there are many anti-gays out there that believe they have the
exact motivation as you.
... "Mommy, mommy! Where's Fluffy?" "Shut up and finish your casserole."
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: FREE WILL
|Date: 03 Feb 97 08:36:00
EID:7211 22434480
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
JB> consciousness in some way --to "prevent his permanent eradication from
JB> the universe".... That alone would make it worthwhile (if the God
JB> actually existed), even if It was essentially powerless in all other
JB> respects, eh?
I don't see why. From a strictly utilitarian standpoint, what good
is a powerless intellect? What difference would it make if He died?
You seem to be saying "He exists and He's really, really big, so we
must worship Him".
Non sequiter, John.
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 03 Feb 97 08:54:00
EID:eec2 224346c0
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Dan Ceppa <=-
JB> labelling system. So: which is it? All I can get out of most people
JB> is that they agree there was NO "YEAR called the ZEROeth year," which
JB> does NOT answer the question....
God'll get you for lying, John. I told you that a) there is no zero
year and b) the first year is year 1, of necessity.
And that's why you can't easily calculate the interval between
AD and BC years. You NEED the zero year.
... Welcome to Hell! Here's your copy of Windows.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: OF THREATS OF HELL...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:59:00
EID:fa04 22435760
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F67CA2
From: ROGER HUNTER Refer#: NONE
To: MARILYN BURGE Recvd: NO
RH> -=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> MB> Al just LOVES to play both sides of the street on nearly every
RH> MB> issue in which he becomes enbroiled. I don't have a clue what
RH> MB> he really thinks about anything, because he doesn't have the
RH> MB> moral fortitude to admit to himself what his position is on
RH> MB> major issues, nor does he have the moral fortitude to state
RH> MB> clearly and unambiguously what those positions are -- even to
RH> MB> himself -- and honestly admit at what point those positions
RH> MB> break down under the light of pure reason.
RH>He doesn't seem that way to me. He's conceded several points
RH>lately, which is not the typical fundy behavior. And he has
RH>admitted that Hell troubles him.
Did Al ever answer your 'split brain' and how the 'soul' ties into
it. After all he is back to telling readers that the soul is
impress by the brain after death.
To you he may concede a point but by his actions, it would appear
that he's back to his old Al patterns of thought/bullshit. Same pattern
of behaviour as he's now, appearing to be heading down the road that
abuse has no effects on the victum mind again. It didn't stick or is
that doesn't stick, when the teacher has hir back turned.
* SLMR 2.1a * 2 most common elements in the universe.hydrogen\stupidity
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical.Virgins are. (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Feb 97 11:07:00
EID:8aa0 224358e0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F67CA3
MG> KY> I doubt very much if he is specifically keeping food from
MG> KY> people..
MG>Sure sounds like he is to me.
MG>Btw, don't you have a middle name? I'm too busy laughing at your initials
t
MG>post too much to you.
How very slick, O_ slippery one.
* SLMR 2.1a * 2nd law of Thermodynamics: Fundies continue to get dumber
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical.Virgins are. (1:221/1503)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: the other shoe
|Date: 03 Feb 97 18:14:00
EID:9257 224391c0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 32F67CA4
RS> * On 09-01-97 at 10:27, AL SCHROEDER wrote to RONALD VASS,
RS> on the topic of "the other shoe" in echo Holysmoke:
RS>AS> AS> Ron.
RS>AS> RV>
RS>AS> RV> You were addressing a post to the Swift Rod of truth.
RS>AS> Typo. But my apologies both to you and Rod.
RS>Apology not accepted.
I ignore his statement also.
RS>AS> Never doubted it for a minute. And certainly nothing would keep
him fro
RS>AS> doing so. But after looking at, say, six posts from Ron all responding
RS>AS> points raised in AUGUST, it seems pretty silly. ---
RS>See the underlined text above as to why your apology is not
RS>accepted by me, because it was never sincere by you, Al.
You notice that slight mistake also. Once the lies start, he can't
seem to quit.
RS>AS> It seems quite appropriate at the time. Since Loki loves mischief.
RS>But highly erroneous, and merely speculative. Of course, any
RS>such expectation of an apology on my behalf contains a caveat
RS>that will state that it was never sincere in the first place.
He will wait till your back is turn, and bless your apology anyhow.
RS>AS> RV> To address Rod as Ron was cute enought, but that pearl, was
even
RS>AS> Don't confuse Machiavellian scheming for a simple typo, Ron.
RS>A simple typo you *again* repeat in this reply to Ron.
Boy your a sharp wippersnapper.
RS>AS> RV> If i were to believe in a god, it would be Lucifer, since going
by
RS>AS> RV> book of lies, Lucifer at least tells the truth. Brings the light
of
RS>AS> RV> day upon the evil of the christian belief/god and shows of its
rot.
RS>AS> Which is no doubt why Jesus refers to him as "the father of lies..."
Bu
RS>AS> many people know that the cleverest way to tell a lie is to tell
a half
RS>AS> truth.
RS>So you now admit to being under Satan's control with the litany
RS>of lies in both your first post in this thread to me, and your
RS>blatant dishonesty in this latest reply?
Al doesn't appear to follow Satan, Al bullshits and lies to often.
RS>Rod "...I expect you to do nothing less than fall on a sword over
RS>this issue, and admit you are actually wrong, Al. No half-baked
RS>explanations, just admission." Swift :(
Lots of luck. Thats a myth too.
* SLMR 2.1a * 665...The Neighbor of the beast...Devil's Advocate...
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical.Virgins are. (1:221/1503)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: 'Bible Prophesy'
|Date: 03 Feb 97 07:23:39
EID:dc22 22433ae0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6f7
AS> As far as I know, neither had people giving up their lives for a
AS> claim of miracles within the lifetime of those who could
AS> debunk same...
MG> Al, I have ten minutes to tell you this before COPS comes on....
I'm that way about X-Files or Babylon Five...
MG> Are you really trying to say that no one that believed in Naziism gave
MG> their life for it? Are you saying that some of those clowns that have
Of course not. You gotta read the whole thing above. Millions have died
for belief in religion, in causes, in whatever. But that is abstract
faith. But giving your life for what you claim you have witnessed...and
realize is a lie? THAT's what is extraordinary.
MG> devoted their entire lives to Elvis, Scientology, Appleton style
MG> Creationism or any of the million other horse shit causes you could
MG> think of haven't given their life? do they need to die to have wasted
MG> an entire life on nonsense?
It's certainly the best earnest that they believe in what they are saying.
Now, Joan of Arc gave her life for her "voices". And I doubt if anyone
really doubts she heard voices, most would just assume she was hearing
auditory hallucinations. I incline that way myself. But I doubt if too
many people think she gave up her life and was burned for the stake for
something she DIDN'T believe, correct?
But a SHARED hallucination? What is the mechanism that causes the
hallucination to be shared? You have just replaced one miracle or
paranormal incident for another.
MG> Whether they die or not int heir cause is not the question. Teh
MG> question is, did they waste a signifigantportion of their mortal span
MG> dealing with it. In this way, Elvis worship is just like the religion
MG> of the christian god.
Hmmm. And Michael Jackson is the antiElvis?
... Die smiling, life is too important to take seriously.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 07:51:23
EID:3767 22433e60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6f8
RH> Yes Al, that's a perfectly valid explanation for many self-serving
RH> prayers being refused.
Good.
RH> Now tell us how it extends to the desperate prayer of a tortured child
RH> seeking relief or protection.
RH> Your free will argument sounds pretty weak here.
Well...if you were God, what would you do in such a case? I have no doubt
what you would do as an INDIVIDUAL...that you would act to save and
protect the child, correct? But try to imagine an omnipotence that would
allow you to do that to all crimes everywhere, at once, and forever.
Imagine how the rest of humanity would react...at being herded.
... Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 07:59:57
EID:9daf 22433f60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6f9
AS> Yeah? You ever read Augustine's experience? Just a tad different
AS> from Einstein's insights...and doubtless, Einstein's were more
AS> useful. Despite the fact, to his horror, they birthed the
AS> atom bomb.
RC> Yet Augustine's religious heirs have killed more people than atom
RC> bombs ever did.
Granted. The most powerful things are as powerful in their misuse as in
their use. Freedom is a powerful concept, and it has been used and
misused. Religion is even more powerful, both in its use and misuse.
It might be balanced against the female infants who were exposed to
infanticide in the classical pagan world....and who were instead allowed
to live under the Christian worldview. Over centuries, for over a thousand
and a half years.
... Dijon Vu: The feeling that you've tasted this mustard before.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 08:42:48
EID:9daf 22434540
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6fa
AS> Charge me as a negligent parent.
RC> And the appropriate response to a god that does the exact same thing
RC> which you consider a chargeable offense?
Wonder if there is a reason He is not acting. And then with a little
thought, come up with an answer.
RC> You would _worship_ such a monster?
One who refuses to take away volition and impose His will on another,
which is exactly what the rapist is doing to another? Indeed. To do
otherwise is to emulate the rapist.
RC> To watch and do nothing? Would you be excused from being charged as
RC> a negligent parent if only you refused to watch?
If I uniformly imposed my will on everyone, I would be charged as a
tyrant. A benevolent one, perhaps. But a tyrant nevertheless.
RC> Is it just that you reserve being an accessory before the fact
RC> "justifiable" for your god? Or do you think that your child,
RC> after being tortured as you stand by and watch, should love you
RC> all the more for your tender consideration of the torturer's
RC> "free will?"
I think if I could uniformly police the world and prevent every crime, I
would think my child would hate me all the more, for keeping him from
making mistakes, and lettting HIM make decisions.
RC> Ah, yes -- "special circumstances" -- meaning that negligent abuse
RC> of one's child is just wonderful and OK because....
RC> Because....
It is neither "wonderful" or "OK". But one doesn't kill to prevent
killing, without being the same as what you are trying to eradicate. One
doesn't control to stop control without becoming a worse controller
yourself.
AS> We are dealing with an omniscient and omnipotent being,
RC> Because a god is not held to ethical standards?
No; because He sets those selfsame standards.
AS> who if He changes the way He reacts to us will have enourmous
AS> repurcussions for all of us.
RC> Because a god cannot save a child from being raped, due to some
RC> unspecified "enormous repercussions."
I've specified them over and over again, Robert. Loss of initiative. A
feeling of being trapped, of living in a divine police state, a
supernatural theocracy which can never be overthrown. Loss of true freedom
of thought and action, for fear that it would go against a Big Brother who
you can never escape and never thwart.
RC> Bullshit, and you know it, Al.
No; enormously true. Would you trade the freedom we enjoy in America for
a
well-run police state, where every room is observed by cameras, and any
infraction will be dealt with immediately? Say, Orwell's 1984? I imagine,
with the big TV/screen/cameras, that child abuse was at a minimum in
Orwell's society. I wouldn't.
RC> The real reason you have such a double standard is because (1) you
RC> are committed to defending religious dogmas while (2) you are unable
RC> to deny the fact that *IF* a god existed outside imagination, it
RC> would be chargeable with child abuse by your own ethical standards.
Then we must charge the goverment for not installing cameras and
punishment devices into every home which would prevent 99% of child abuse?
In your own words...
RC> Bullshit, and you know it,
Robert. Will you charge the entire Congress, the Presidency, and the
Judicial Branch, for not allowing such?
RC> So you have to weasel your way out by appealing to supposed "enormous
RC> repercussions" that are too big for an omnipotent god to handle.
Oh, He can HANDLE them well enough...while robbing us of everything that
would make us human.
... Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: a reason
|Date: 03 Feb 97 09:00:22
EID:06c4 22434800
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6fb
RC> Divine sadism.
AS> It's a possibility.
RC> "Ask and ye shall receive." "Help!" "Sorry, you're on your own."
"I want to make my OWN decisions!" "Fine, do so." "How DARE you let that
happen to me."
RC> The evidence clearly points to Jesus WANTING those little
RC> children to be raped (supposing you assume the existence
RC> of a god to begin with).
AS> Then why isn't every child raped?
RC> Because humans are better than the monstrous god you imagine,
RC> and generally take steps to protect their children from such
RC> horrors. Even you wouldn't stand idly by -- that takes a monster.
As if parents could stop an omnipotent god from doing ANYTHING.
... And, pray tell, whose imagination are you a figment of?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: A Serious Question
|Date: 03 Feb 97 09:22:14
EID:75bf 22434ac0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6fc
RC> The particular class of possible biologies is dependent upon the
RC> particular constants; other constants would imply a different class
RC> of possible biologies.
AS> Interesting assertion.
RC> It's self-evident, Al. Biology operates according to physical
RC> constraints; and thus if you change those constraints, you thereby
RC> change that particular biology in question.
That's presupposing a biology can arise at ALL. That's the interesting
assertion. You are in effect saying that no matter which constants arise,
there is a class of possible biologies under that different class of
constants. It's that assertion I question, as unevidenced and unsupported.
AS> Please delineate such a change in constants, and then devise a
AS> biology that will work, in theory.
RC> Any change would have some effect. We can only speculate on the
RC> details.
We can make an informed speculation, though.
AS> You first.
RC> ROFL! I'm not the one who's making the outrageous claim to know all
RC> about the possibilities for infinitely many "alternate universes," Al.
RC> That would be, let's see, YOU.
No, YOU are the one CLAIMING to know that in alternative
constants-cosmoses biologies are possible. By what criteria are you making
that assertion?
RC> What I am saying is:
RC> (1) You are full of shit, as you have no actual data.
We have reasonable extrapolation from known data. At least 700 pages of
it
in the ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGICAL PRINCIPLE. Among others.
RC> (2) Naturally, changes in physical constants would change any possible
RC> biological systems, perhaps even allowing for some to exist that
RC> are quite unlike anything we know. To claim you know intelligent
RC> life any any kind whatsoever would be impossible is ridiculous.
In a universe that recollapsed in a month's time, for instance? It is you
who are clinging fundy-like to a belief in invisible pink hippos in
alternative constant-comoses which MAY exist...and unable to provide a
plausible mechanism for same.
... Infinity is just time on an ego trip.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Al decides what Jesus knows!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 09:33:22
EID:b06e 22434c20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6fd
AS> Hector's quick judgements strike again, rather. Obviously an
AS> infinite mind cannot be downloaded into a finite brain.
Jd> Well, well, well....so your god _isn't_ all-powerful after all!
He doesn't do logical impossibilities, no. Nonsense is still nonsense,
even if humans put "God can" in front of it.
AS> Common sense. Try it some time. Was there any point during Jesus'
AS> stay on Earth that He needed to know the depth of the snowfall on
AS> Pluto?
Jd> Well, Al, since your god 'probe' was in the neighbourhood anyway,
Jd> perhaps your god stored such data locally, in the probe, for more
Jd> efficient networking and faster access. tm
Why bother? Even if He was bound by such constraints, putting it somewhere
else closer to Pluto would be even more efficient.
AS> Jesus is like a seperated probe
AS> seperated from the mother ship, who will download what is
AS> experienced back into the main database.
Jd> See Al, - you get the idea.
I wish I could say the same for you.
... Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Al knows what god experiences!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 09:42:45
EID:2ae9 22434d40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6fe
AS> Because He can taste anything BUT finiteness that way. The way we
AS> do NOT know everything all at once, and the frustration we have.
AS> Oh, He can read OUR frustrations at such, but it's not the same
AS> thing.
Jd> ROTFLMAO!!
Jd> So Al Schroeder KNOWS what god experiences! AND, Al Schroeder puts
Jd> LIMITS on what god can do!!
Logical ones? Certainly. I don't think God can make valleys without
mountains,either. Certainly the above is just an extrapolation.
Jd> The ALL-POWERFUL, ALL-KNOWING, omnipotent, omnicscient, omnivorous
Jd> god!
Does He subscribe to Omni? Jan, the idea that God can do everything but
the logically impossible is an old Christian position, as old as Aquinas
at least.
Jd> Strange, Al, that if you know god so well, you can only describe him
Jd> in analogies, poor ones, at that!
The very different from us is usually only described in analogies...like
the strange world of quantum physics.
... XTC v0.1 Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of Humanitarians.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: AL LIES AGAIN!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:01:26
EID:540c 22435020
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c6ff
AS> Not so; read the passage in Romans that says a pagan's conscience can
AS> be their advocate before God.
RH> Doesn't it say no one is worthy of Heaven, that all have sinned, etc.
RH> etc. etc.?
Yes. It also says that Jesus can be our advocate before God. It similarly
says an unbeliever's conscience may be too. That doesn't mean in either
case they are worthy of Heaven...indeed, in the case of Jesus, it
specifically says they are not. If one was already worthy, why would one
need an advocate?
RH> Just another contradiction, Al. Thanks for pointing it out.
Just another chance to elucidate, Roger. Thanks for the opportunity.
... If it isn't eternal, it's eternally out of date.--C.S. Lewis
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Al the Revisionist Historian
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:04:38
EID:7a39 22435080
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c700
AS> Y'know, sometimes I think atheists, quite frankly, would PREFER the
AS> OT God, who appears as a pillar of fire at night, who parts the Red
AS> Sea, who hits people with leprosy for questioning their leader. They
AS> would prefer a
AS> powerful but rather heavy-handed God to one who sits back, and hands
AS> us the key to Paradise, points out the door, and waits for us to use
AS> the key ourselves.
Jd> Engaging in a little 'revisionism', Al? You seem to have left out a
Jd> few details.
Jd> We _WERE_ already _IN_ paradise, but your god set up a nasty
Jd> entrapment for our predecessors, and they were evicted from paradise
on
Jd> a flimsy excuse.
A bottle is clearly marked "poison". Someone is specifically warned
against it. And you blame the person who put the poison label and gave the
warnings against drinking it, for the person who drank it?
Jd> And now, you want to give this same god credit for making the 'key'
to
Jd> paradise available to the winners of a rigged contest?
Rigged in what way? If you are talking about the Eden parable, in the
context of the story, we were under no compulsion to eat the fruit.
... Posted by my evil twin, Skippy.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Al's God of Love
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:18:57
EID:e948 22435240
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c701
AS> No; because you don't repay evil with evil. Or rape with rape.
AS> Mindrape...brainwashing...is the worst violation of all. Because your
AS> body will change, and someday your body will be no more. But if there
AS> is a YOU there, Ron, it is in your mind.
LB> Are you back to suggesting that one's mind and who they are is not
LB> also "raped" during the physical event?
AS> No. I'm saying that God will not rape anything...including your free
AS> will or your mind...even to stop you from doing anything.
LB> That addresses your first sentance quoted above. It's the rest I am
LB> discouraged you're back to, again, after we'd hashed it out, and I
LB> thought, you had come to some understanding about.
The "no" addressed the second. I am NOT suggesting that. You are the one
suggesting it. I did not say Ron or whoever's mind is not changed by the
rape.
LB> Now, you say 'mindrape' is worse, because the body changes....al, so
LB> does your MIND. Most definitely one of the things that CHANGES it is
LB> trauma. So to seperate the two and declare one a lesser evil is to
LB> suggest that you think the physical victimization doesn't effect one's
LB> psyche.
No, that's an invalid assumption. But one is more direct than the other.
It's like saying there are any number of causes of trauma, but if you say
that trauma caused by rape is worst than trauma caused by, say, rejection
by one's spouse, I would certainly agree THERE. There are degrees of such.
Now, what we are talking about is direct control of one's mind. Not by
coercion or outside causes of which the trauma is a consequence. But
directly. Now, whatever happened to you, and whatever trauma that SOB put
you through, there is a part of you that still survived. Maybe just
barely. There is a part of YOU that is in there...doubtless warped by the
circumstances. But there is a continuity there. Well, suppose someone
could go in and erase even that little bit?
LB> And what is absurd about that is that you KNOW that physical scars
LB> heal much faster than emotional ones. Were it merely physical, it
LB> would bother me no more than the time I fell onto a broken bottle when
LB> I was 5.
What is absurd is your thinking that I was saying it was an either-or
situation. It is a degree thing.
... Character is a perfectly educated will. - Novalis
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:28:07
EID:7387 22435380
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c702
AS> It was necessary for Him to die; past that, you got me. Some people
AS> think I'm arrogant...well, I'm not arrogant enough to think I know all
AS> the whys and wherefores of the Crucifixion and Resurrection.
LB> Come on, Al...you know enough of your theology to say more than that.
LB> Go ahead and explain for Jason the theological explanation for the
LB> Crucifixion.. it was the Sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Jesus the
LB> spotless lamb, the perfect sacrifice that would end all need for
LB> further sacrifices to appease god.
No, I think I will let the statement stand; that I don't know all the whys
and wherefores of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection. Because it's the
truth.
LB> The Crucifixion, rather than a peaceful death by old age, was because
LB> god demanded a blood sacrifice. And he provided the lamb himself,
LB> because only his own son would be 'perfect' enough to appease him once
LB> and for all.
"I delight not in sacrifice...". That's why I said I don't know.
JH> You know what I mean, Al. Jesus was not sent here to die of natural
JH> causes. Where would your mythologies be if the sins of the world
JH> were washed away by a guy dying in his sleep?
Got me.
AS> Well, it wouldn't be as dramatic......and in all honesty...it
AS> wouldn't touch us all so much.
LB> heh, I suspect you come closest to giving away what you really feel
LB> about it with that first statement..that it was simply a 'dramatic'
LB> act, something to act as a tearjerker. You want to cry over suffering,
LB> look around you. God's already offered plenty examples of human pain.
LB> Are you touched for the thieves that were on either side of Jesus? Or
Of course. Although one of them at least admitted they were guilty, but
that doesn't lessen the horror of it.
LB> the unknowns who were crucified the day before and the week following?
Aren't YOU? Doesn't the streets lined with crucified prisoners after
Spartacus' rebellion, for instance, touch you?
... "We can easily endure adversity. Another man's I mean." -- Twain
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:29:51
EID:90f8 224353a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c703
AS> There I would blame the bomber.
AS> So, I think, also does God.
DC> Why doesn't your god better and prevent the acts from ever
DC> happening?
Because He thinks free will is better for us than a rigid control.
DC> What would you do if your god demanded that you do that rape?
AS> Refuse without a second's thought, even if it meant damnation.
DC> What would you do if your daughter was the victim and someone
DC> that could have prevented it didn't help?
Be angry, no doubt. But it might depend on the reason.
... This tagline does not exist. Provide evidence otherwise.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: RE: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:52:52
EID:7095 22435680
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c704
AS> And sings a hymn of praise to the Lord. Now, it MAY be that she was
AS> frightened, and felt she had to, and felt trapped, etc. But it may
have
AS> been a genuine hymn of joy for being able to bear the Messiah. Either
AS> is possible. And since the only actions we see from her indicate joy
AS> at it, I don't see any reason to suppose it isn't genuine.
AS> If someone gives you what you've been wanting...remember we are
AS> dealing with an omniscient being who knew Mary's innermost
AS> thoughts...then why should we look for anything further?
BB> And what if she hadn't been happy about it?? What would have happened
BB> then??
I imagine she wouldn't be singing a song of praise about it, anway...
BB> Al, you never answered the original question. Where, in the bible, did
BB> God obtain Mary's CONSENT before he impregnated her??
Luke. The angel is addressing her, as she WILL conceive or she WILL be
with child. He/She/It addresses Elizabeth as already pregnant, in all
three versions of the Bible I consulted. And she says, "Let it be as you
say."
Becke, certainly there is a possibility of Mary being intimidated. But
to say a possibility is not a certainty is certainly correct; and to say
all evidence points in the opposite direction is certainly correct. I
can't PROVE that, say, your husband isn't terrorizing you and making you
say that you're generally happy. I can only take my cues from what you
say, and despite him keeping you waiting sometimes, insofar as I can
judge, you are reasonably happy. The same thing could be applied to me.
We've never met. Perhaps Barb keeps me chained in the basement by the
computer. (This hypothetical, by the way, is not a slur against EITHER
spouse. From what I know of your husband, he would never terrorize you.
From what you may have gathered from my wife...wellll, maybe.) But I
can't demonstrate a negative. If all the evidence inclines to Mary being
happy over it, and no evidence indicates the opposite, unless I have
something to dispute it, I have to go with what the words say, which are
the only thing we know about Mary.
... It IS as bad as you think and they ARE out to get you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:56:16
EID:8fc5 22435700
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c705
AS> of God entered into a normal conception, is a difference
AS> that makes no difference to me.
RC> Nor, to my knowledge, has anyone claimed that it did.
Judith seems to think it contradictory...that I cannot contemplate a Jesus
who arose through normal human reproduction as also being Resurrected.
AS> The important thing to a Christian is usually the Resurrection,
AS> more than say, Christmas.
RC> So your religion has evolved over the centuries.
Actually, the early Christians also emphasized the Resurrection over His
conception and birth, insofar as we can judge from the documents left to
us.
... How many Zen Masters does it take a light bulb to change?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Another deception...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:57:25
EID:09a3 22435720
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c706
AS> Yes. But we disagree on what He is trying to be efficient ABOUT. Why
AS> a stage play that means nothing, not to Him?
LB> You already answered that, in your post to Jason....because it looks
LB> dramatic and touching to US.
I don't think that is all of it; but I agree that what Jesus went
through...He did for US.
... And now for something completely different.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: assertion by Al
|Date: 03 Feb 97 10:59:23
EID:628b 22435760
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c707
DC> Close. It was all because Augustine was toking on grass.
AS> If so, I want HIS stash...
DC> Just remembered: I had a button around 1968 that said, "God
DC> is alive and well in a sugar cube." Seems like the statement
DC> is more fitting now than the day I bought it.
Is Nutrasweet the Antichrist now? (Here's a real heresy for all the
chocolate fanatics out there on the echo...beware the antichocolate,
carob.)
... If you see any misspelled words it HAS to be line noise.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Baby In Critical Conditi
|Date: 03 Feb 97 11:02:15
EID:cac7 22435840
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c708
AS> Because killing corrupts a person, and makes them callous. Done often
AS> enough, it makes them sociopathic.
LB> On the other hand, so does prison.
AS> Yes indeed. And some people choose to go to prison, by what they do.
LB> Non sequitor. What you deleted from the above was the question you
LB> were answering....which was why we killing is considered bad and is
LB> punished, rather than praised as a means to help someone into heaven
LB> faster. Your answer reflects the damage killing does to the KILLERS.
My
LB> response was that the punishment causes the same, negating your answer.
But in either case, one can withdraw and not act...neither kill out of
"mercy" nor kill as a sociopath, which leads to prison. The point is the
choice, Lynda.
It always is.
... Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Baby In Critical Conditi
|Date: 03 Feb 97 11:03:03
EID:4bac 22435860
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c709
AS> Ah...and the part that refutes the Resurrection?
Jd> Which one...the 9 a.m. crucifiction, or the 12 noon crucifiction?
You can nail down the hour?
... I think sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Baby in Critical Conditio
|Date: 03 Feb 97 11:12:07
EID:66ca 22435980
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c70a
LB> And what's horrible is a year ago, Al would have jumped all OVER
LB> someone making a comment like the one above....and he doesn't even see
LB> the shift.
No, Lynda. I thought God saves the innocents long before I met you. Now,
if you had asked whether it JUSTIFIES the death...which Roger and others
are trying to make it sound like it does...I would answer--and am
answering--a resounding NO!!
But if one asks me what happens to the soul, I do not think the soul of
the innocent was damned. I do not think it was reincarnated. I do not
think it was extinguished. I think it was saved.
I haven't changed, Lynda. You have.
... "And I say I'm dead and I move." - The Crow
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution 2/2
|Date: 03 Feb 97 11:20:45
EID:d143 22435a80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c70b
LB> If God overhears, and wants to respond, he knows where to find me. :)
AS> He does indeed.
LB> Extrapolate: ergo, if he doesn't respond, HE doesn't want to. Or,
LB> kinder to his reputation, just isn't there.
AS> Or...
AS> There's a reason He's not responding.
LB> I offered two reasons why, above:
LB> 1. He doesn't want to.
LB> 2. He isn't there.
LB> If you have a third, I'd be interested in hearing about it.
3. The time may not be right. (I.E., greater benefit would come to you if
it happens at a different time.)
4. He doesn't think you will believe it's not your own hallucination if
He
does.
5. He's judging that such an experience, given that you associate a strong
religious life with Joe's abuse, might trigger trauma and reawaken wounds
that are now partially healed. I.E., He would rather have you turn from
Him, at least for now, rather than reawaken the nightmares.
There might be many others.
... "I think thou doth protest too much."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Bacteria and Evolution 2/2
|Date: 03 Feb 97 11:22:02
EID:9f61 22435ac0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c70c
AS> Well...it's a possibility, but then we have a lot of other stuff to
AS> explain, (i.e., the constants, etc.) another way.
DC> Just compare that to the inconstistancies in the bible. I'll
DC> take the constants that man has found vs those inconstancies
DC> any day.
Well, I'm comparing what the constants falling in that narrow range with
what the Bible says about the Creator, and finding some agreement, anyway.
... Hell hath no fury like an unjustified assumption.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Bible disproves bible
|Date: 03 Feb 97 11:24:52
EID:1c40 22435b00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c70d
Jd> If a perfect, infallible, all-knowing god had been involved with it,
Jd> it would have been designed in a manner making it impossible to read
Jd> incorrectly.
Even if fallible men wrote it? Even DaVinci can't make a masterpiece with
broken pencils.
Jd> Now, you evade answering by postponing a reply until after death.
Jd> You are engaging in deception, again, Al. Some here would call you a
Jd> sack of lying shit again, but I wouldn't do that. I might THINK it
Jd> though.
It would be refreshing to see you think at all.
... Penny for your thoughts.. Hey! You owe me some change!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: BIFURCATED GENTLE FAR
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:46:30
EID:2bc9 2243adc0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c70e
RH> We're gonna have to start a scorecard on you, Al. Is this two or three
RH> points you've acknowledged now?
RH> How many holes will it take to cause your religious edifice to
RH> crumble?
Keep on trying. Miracles HAVE been known to happen...OOPS!!! Sorry. A
momentary lapse...
... Frisbyterian: When you die, your soul goes up on the roof.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Bootstrapping up, up and away
|Date: 03 Feb 97 12:23:10
EID:99b7 224362e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c70f
AS> I agree that it was a sign of weakness and insecurity (by the growing
AS> fractured face of Christianity, and by secular challenges) rather
AS> than a doctrine of strength.
DC> It's not the secular challenges that are destroying your god,
DC> Al. It's science and the search for truth that's doing it in.
I don't think so. Or rather, let's put it this way...it's been claimed
before. Voltaire predicted the end of religion, in the face of the
"Enlightenment", for instance. Marx called it an "opiate for the masses"
whose time has passed. Like Jesus, Christianity is constantly being
declared dead.
But it won't stay dead.
DC> As it is, you yourself have stated that your god existed "before
DC> _anything_ existed." Those hiding spots have now been reduced
DC> to a singularity.
Would that be the "initial conditions" that Robert says we don't know?
DC> May I interest you in a discussion about Zero?
ACK! No, that way lies madness. Quantum fluctuations, maybe...
... Aphrodite does it with everyone! (And respects them in the morning)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Bootstrapping up, up and away
|Date: 03 Feb 97 12:24:32
EID:3855 22436300
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c710
AS> I'll have to consult the Bishop, be back to you on that...
AS> Amazing how the Popes got along for eighteen hundred years
AS> without infallibility.
Jd> Oh, but they didn't Al. The infallibility was bestowed retroactively
Jd> and posthumously. Being in charge of miracles, the pope can do things
Jd> like that.
That's possibly one reason that I'm not Catholic...
... All the world's a stage, and Felini wrote the script.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Christians v Guns
|Date: 03 Feb 97 12:37:50
EID:f758 224364a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c711
LB> The solution is to survive fairly intact for a few more thousand years
LB> so that we forget our roots and our radical notions of individuality,
LB> and bury ourselves under lots of visible reminders that what we do
LB> today has little meaning to our culture in the long run.
AS> It is?
LB>
LB> Yup. Knowing Europe's mindset in the matter wouldn't help - we don't
LB> have enough age on us to HAVE that mindset.
Perhaps. Although it's interesting to find out what we DO know of the
lands around us and the rich history that we often ignore, even the
prehistory. Ever heard of the Mississippian Death Cult? I hadn't, until
I
was doing some research on something I was writing once. Really
prehistory, but fairly recent, roughly a thousand years ago in the south.
LB> The house where I lived there had pockmarks in the wall from shooting
LB> during WWII. When I expressed a bit of awe over that, I was met with
a
LB> shrug....they have all around them the evidence of conflicts dating
LB> back over a thousand years...it means nothing in the long term.
AS> Ummm. And that has a direct bearing on the wanting not to blow
AS> someone brains' out? Not doubting you, Lynda, my sister's the world
AS> traveller, not me, but not quite following..
LB>
LB> It only has bearing on what you mused about. Here let me repeat it
LB> again for you:
Okay.
AS> Very true. I wonder if anything can be done to study the cultural
AS> differences to promote the MINDSET of those european cultures. Such
AS> laws might not even be needed, if we can promote a cultural mindset
AS> where guns are not wanted.
LB> See? You can't promote it here. You can only wait until we have enough
LB> hard evidence that we are not on the verge of disappearing as a
LB> country. Then such an attitude will grow. We can't be Europe. Not
LB> unless we survive intact for another 1000 years or so.
It's hard to imagine...the 3265th president, for instance.
LB> We are BABIES. We haven't survived as a country long enough to even
LB> know if we are viable yet. And we won't develop Europe's confidence
in
LB> our own underlying stability until we've been here long enough to rack
LB> up some evidence for it.
AS> Perhaps if we concentrate more on the Indian cultures that preceded
AS> us? We have a tendency to think America began with Columbus, when
AS> there were ancient cultures even then.
LB> What would be the purpose? They are not our people (ok, they are my
LB> grandfather's, but the culture itself was dead long before I - or he
-
LB> was born), and they left very few markers to provide evidence of
LB> stability. If anything, looking to the culture preceding ours INCREASES
LB> the idea that nothing here is permanent or stable.
I dunno....after all, emphasizing a Celtic heritage from a preceding
culture is not unheard of in England. Many of our placenames are Indian,
and certainly there are still Indians who remember part of their heritage
among us...but you may be right.
LB> We Americans are "shoot from the hip", "now or never" types. Because
LB> tomorrow may be too late. And we tend to choose what is efficient over
LB> what is honorable sometimes. So guns are attractive, they get the job
LB> done.
Too well, sometimes. Take care, Lynda.
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: death
|Date: 03 Feb 97 12:43:05
EID:9fb6 22436560
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c712
AS> You got me.
RC> All in good time.
Well, wash your hands first...
AS> Anyone who claims to be a believer and claims to understand
AS> all the whys and wherefores of the Incarnation, Crucifixion,
AS> and Resurrection has a bigger ego than I.
RC> Perhaps I should consult Brawley, then (although you win on sheer
RC> volume and condescension, there are some areas in which he gets
RC> the prize).
Uhhh, Robert. What makes you think Brawley has any interest in the
Crucifixion? As far as I can tell, he has never endorsed any particular
flavor of theism with his quantum god.
... Cthulhu and Hastur and Nyarlathotep, Oh my!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Dr. God's elixer cures all
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:49:11
EID:2edd 2243ae20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c713
AS> To this extent; many of them set up leper sanctuaries and worked
AS> among them whom the ancient world would't touch.
AS> And that's part of the instruction manual, too.
Jd> Evasion, Al, evasion...a deceptive tactic. Nice try, but it doesn't
Jd> alter, nor draw attention away from, the fact that your 'god' didn't
Jd> know any more about curing leprosy thatn the ignorant barbarians of
Jd> the times. The 'cures' for leprosy that your god provided are laughable
Jd> ignorance. So much for your all-knowing god, Al.
Ummm.
Cures for leprosy?
In the Bible?
Other than miraculous stuff like Jesus'?
Elucidate, please.
Levitius 13:14 merely talks about seperating the leper from the rest of
the tribe...i.e., quarentine, which is used in medicine today. Most of the
others seem to be merely matters of reasonable medical knowledge of the
time...seperate the leper from the rest of the tribe. The cures I read
about, such as Mariam's and Nathan's, are obviously supernatural, not
natural, so your criticism hardly applies.
... A lie never lives to be old. - Sophocles
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: final exam
|Date: 03 Feb 97 12:51:25
EID:5d5a 22436660
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c714
AS> As you wish.
LB> You're starting to sound like the robot from Battlestar Gallactica
LB> saying "By your leave".
One of my best roles.
... "Always Ask the Next Question!" --Theodore Sturgeon
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: final exam
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:06:10
EID:5d5a 224368c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c715
AS> Is it indeed?
AS> Then surely, we will take money from our employers if they are
LB> ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
AS> themselves mismanging business affairs...or cheat on our spouses if
we
AS> want revenge on them for any slight, imagined or real...since we
AS> ourselves are always determining what is "right" and "wrong".
LB>
LB> You mean that, left to your own judgement about right and wrong, those
LB> are the choices you'd make?
AS> No. But I am saying it is a judgement that many would make.
LB> So now you are better than these nameless "many"? What happened to
LB> 'surely, we'?
There are certainly cases where I might be tempted by many things, Lynda.
At present I would not. I cannot ignore the fact that different things
might happen that would tempt me to, say, pilfer money...say, if one of
my
children needed an operation badly and I was no longer covered by my
health plan. I have trouble imagining me doing the example concerning the
spouse, but I am too aware that many hitherto faithful men have strayed.
I
hope that would not be the case. The thing, is, Lynda, many have done
"ethical" systems to justify the above...that the wealth does not belong
to the employer but to the employee, or that marriage is a conventional
shackle that the "superior" man or woman can rise above. One can usually
find an ethos to justify any stand one makes, or any desire one has.
Interestingly enough, such ethics rarely stand the test of time, but
return to a "center" of conventional morality.
LB> No, WE wouldn't. YOU might, only you can answer that one, and if the
LB> answer is yes, then by all means continue to use an ethical standard
LB> that falls outside your own judgement. But don't assume that those who
LB> practice judgement on a case-by-case basis will by default SURELY
LB> choose an unethical path.
I say there is that possibility. Hitler was obeying morality, as he
(mis)understood morality, and was acting true to his Neitzchian and
Wagnerian ethics.
... When subtlety fails us, we must resort to cream pies.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: final exam
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:12:57
EID:5d5a 22436980
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c716
AS> Punk.
LB> tsk, tsk.....one must EARN the privilege of calling me a punk! :)
Hmmm. How many sacrifices did Mike have to make, mademoiselle?
... Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: for your own good...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:17:13
EID:f1ba 22436a20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c717
AS> Don't have the foggiest on the childhood leukemia, so I'll pass
AS> on that. (Problem of Pain.)
Jd> What's to 'pass' on Al, - the embarrassing truth that your 'merciful'
Jd> god ignores the prayers of children with leukemia and lets them suffer
Jd> an agonizing death?
Hmmm. Weren't you the same one who was arguing in terms of the Eden
parable earlier? How does disease and death enter the world in that story?
Jd> What a brutal sadisctic lying monstrosity you get on your knees to and
Jd> worship, Al.
"sadisctic"?
... Gentlemen, let's broaden our minds
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: free will
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:40:27
EID:5ae1 22436d00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c718
AS> Because it might be the wrong thing for the individual.
AS> For instance.
AS> A lot of people claim to get revelations from God. Joseph Smith.
AS> Mohammed. Augustine. John Brawley.
AS> Imagine a fanatic like John Brown, getting a revelation from God.
AS> Literally.
AS> Even if it was a totally selfless, harmless revelation..."Here I am,
AS> bet on Blue Bell in the fifth race," something like that.
AS> How many people would start to feel special and touched and go the
AS> holy roller route and eventually declare a holy war? Or think
AS> EVERYTHING they do has God's favor?
AS> That's one scenario.
LB> God wouldn't be able to figure that out and put enough content into
LB> his message to avoid that?
Lynda, think how many Holy Wars have been fought over really silly stuff,
like whether Jesus was equal to God as opposed to a lesser creation, or
whether the Pope is God's vicar on Earth? I suspect if someone had a
miraculous message from God, they would hang onto it so much that they
would stick to the letter of the message and miss the meaning, as Jesus
complained about the Pharisees.
AS> Or let's take a woman being beaten by a fundamentalist husband.
AS> God appears to her and says, "Get out of there, that idiot's CRAZY!"
AS> Now, she, still a little under his thrall, and unable to see a quick
AS> way out, TELLS him. Or tells their preacher. Or tells a friend. And
it
AS> gets back to the husband.
LB> Look, Al...if God himself told me anything, I'd be MOVING my ass to
LB> comply, not bragging about it.
Yes. YOU would, perhaps. Not every such woman would.
LB> Especially if I'd been saying "God, do you read? Hello, god, waiting
LB> for instructions here...Come in God..copy?"
AS> The husband, knowing it is a perfect opportunity to keep her from
AS> ever being believed, has her committed for hearing voices. And no one
AS> believes that he beat her, and she is not being beaten, but she is
AS> locked in an asylum with no way out...
LB> Ah, pretty much like it was WITHOUT any word from god. Only difference
LB> being, if I'd been locked in an asylum, JOE COULDN'T GET TO ME ANYMORE.
Neither could anyone else. Not even George. And don't be so sure you would
have been safe there. People have been molested in asylums before.
AS> That's another scenario.
AS> COULD He reveal Himself to some people? Certainly. If the time is
AS> right, and it won't have negative repurcussions, or if it does, for
AS> the right causes. But it's no guarentee of happily ever after. Joan
of
AS> Arc heard voices...
AS> And she was burned at the stake. By "religious" men.
LB> So? People are hurt and killed daily who DON'T hear any voices. God
LB> doesn't act to stop those, so why should he fail to act to stop the
LB> same?
"why should he fail to act to stop the same"? Does that mean He should act
or He shouldn't?
LB> Your answers are just more of you imparting God with your own bumbling
LB> ineptitude. Why do you worship such a helpless guy?
"bumbling ineptitude"? I am answering as best I can, Lynda, but I don't
claim to be God. As for why I worship such a "helpless guy"...if it
"helpless" not to take over someone else, then there should be more such
"helpless guys". Joe, especially, would have been better off so
"helpless" in that sense. You are confusing helplessness with patience and
forebearing.
... Confuse people: start making sense.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: freedom and life
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:57:08
EID:393f 2243af20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c719
AS> It says you shall receive. It doesn't say you shall receive
AS> exactly what you ask for, right away. That's it. That's
AS> certainly the way other people in the Bible are treated.
RC> So if your hungry child asks you for bread, you hand over a stone?
Nope. Nor would I take over his life so he would never be hungry again.
... Confuse people: start making sense.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: RE: FREEDOM TO BLAME
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:53:56
EID:e59d 22436ea0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c71a
AS> That might be more a handicap than a glory...imagine a compassionate
AS> God who witnesses ALL the evil that happens.
BB> And if said god is omni*, why doesn't he intervene rather than just
BB> watch?
Because in the LONG run, it is better that mankind have the capacity to
make its own decisions, even if it occasionally strays into evil, rather
than have its ability to make decisions taken away from it.
... Mary Poppins: First of the Q to visit earth.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: god-farted
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:17:50
EID:1b3e 22437220
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c71b
AS> But I didn't say that. I don't think it, in that sense. I think
AS> it is the work of a great many men...some of which may have been
AS> guided by God...or perhaps those who put it together were. I
AS> don't think...per se...that this is a word-for-word dictation
AS> from the Infinite.
Jd> LOL! Then what EXACTLY do you mean when you call it the 'WORD of
Jd> GOD'??
A work partly inspired...perhaps in the original writing, perhaps in the
selection of material that eventually resulted...by the Divine.
Jd> Claiming the bible as the work of men discredits it completely.
Jan. PLEASE think. Does anyone think that the Bible was "beamed down" by
God from Heaven? Or even the entire thing was dictated from one source,
like the Q'uran or the book of Mormon? If it wasn't directly written by
God...and I don't see even the most fundamentalist fundy saying that...it
is, ipso facto, the work of men.
Jd> The cunning priesthhod realized a claim of inspiration by god would
Jd> also discredit the bible, - an all-knowing, infallible god doesn't
Jd> jive with inspiring errors, and the bible is riddled with
Jd> errors and contradictions. So, the priests of deception came up with
Jd> the marvellous evasion of 'god-breathed'.
They did? That's interesting.
Jd> Wanna explain just exactly what 'god-breathed' means, Al?
Not really. I don't use the term myself.
Jd> Are they sure it wasn't a gentle fart?
Please. Mark did that ENOUGH.
... Too many people confuse free speech with loose talk.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: God: psychopathic liar...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:18:49
EID:f093 22437240
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c71c
AS> Then why does the idea of hell still bother me?
DC>
DC> And, Al, just where did you first hear that concept? Does
DC> it strike a cord that you would not get presents from Santa
DC> if you were bad?
DC> It should.
But the concept of hell is far older than the concept of Santa Claus, Dan.
... "Pinky, you are a threat to tolerance." --The Brain
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: God: psychopathic liar...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:58:34
EID:e1f9 2243af40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c71d
AS> Then why does the idea of hell still bother me?
RC> Good question.
Thank you.
RC> Why does that bother you when you think nothing of worshipping
RC> a monster that merely twiddles its trinity while children ask and
RC> beg for help as they're brutally tortured?
Because I believe freedom is better than a police state even with the
possibility of people misusing that freedom to torture, rape or kill.
Yourself?
... Those who will not read have no advantage over those who cannot.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: H
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:38:15
EID:8a4f 224374c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c71e
AS> Then why...if we are shaped solely by evolution....do we not adopt a
AS> policy of eliminating the unfit?
RV> Few animals kill their young. The higher the animal is classed, humans> the less likely, the animal will kill. Chimps have tried to
RV> nurse a dead baby. Much like a human mother who refuse's to
RV> acknowledge a child that has died. It's there, it happens, I don't
RV> understand the why it happens but then too, i don't see a need to add
RV> another unknowen to the equation. ie: a god reason
Thanks for your added examples. Yes, few animals kill their young, and
that makes some sense, evolutionarily. But it still doesn't explain why
we
keep those who are more a hinderance than a help to us. Although I'm
awfully glad we do.
AS> And Nature, which shapes us so well, well enough to build rockets to
go to
AS> the moon, yet leaves us where we cannot make this simple distinction,
AS> which is for the good of the species.
RV> We also can laid part of the problem on a god belief, since simple
RV> folks think humans are the best there is. Could i destroy a child that
RV> can breath on it's own, I really don't know ? a brain dead, flesh body
RV> that can breath. Hell if i know, it's not a problem i will ever
RV> face.Can i do the same to an adult that has experience life and know
of
RV> that person/s wish. Yes. No problem at all. Because we can build good
RV> toys dosn't mean we can't make a bad mistake.
Too true.
RV> Right now we have humans that breed kids that are like themselfs and
RV> would die if they ate of a single peanut. Then they turn around and
RV> say that socity should go out of it's way to protect these kids of
RV> theirs. Sorry Al, I'm a bastard. I can't see a reason why I or anyone,
RV> should take steps to protect their kids when they knew what Would
RV> Happen if they did breed. They want kids, adopt a child, you carry a
RV> fault that can kill or brain damage a kid. Don't breed, adopt a kid
RV> that is all ready liveing.
Yes. I have the greatest respect for adoptive parents.
RV> Once maybe to keep a part genetic patten alive but no more, humans
RV> cover the face of the earth now, it would take a very major happening
RV> to kill all of them off. The damage DNA isn't needed anymore. All we
do
RV> is lower the human ability to fight new virus patterns.
But increase the pool of brains to FIGHT new virus patterns.
AS> Well, that's certainly your decision, to breed or not to breed. But
I
AS> don't think you need fear so much. You seem like a fine person, and
likely
AS> would have made a good father.
RV> Perhaps that is the why i'm a godfather to several familys that aren't
RV> related to our family. Going by what mom has said , i've always had
RV> a connection with the young, then too, i've always been able to handle
RV> animals with out any problem. Till the hormones kick in, a human child
RV> works on the same principle. More animal then human logic.
And if I may say so, I think there is a gentleness about you...insofar as
I can judge by modem...that both animals and children wouuld take to.
RV> Yes Al, I too wish i had a child to raise. It could teach me a lot.
You have said you are older than me. Did you ever consider adopting
a child yourself?
... Only those who attempt the absurd achieve the impossible.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: humor the fundy fools
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:39:48
EID:0d2b 224374e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c71f
AS> All the time, Hec...
AS> While I'm having them.
RC> And do you also, while you're having them, have faith in their reality
RC> exactly the same as when you are awake?
Insofar as I remember my dreams, certainly. I don't say to myself, "this
must be a dream, because it seems so inconsistent..."
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: I
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:46:12
EID:4a8e 224375c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c720
AS> I too wish there was a better place to go into this, that you had email
AS> capacity, and I don't use a point. Is netmail between BBSes, then, quite
AS> dead? Hmmm. Let me try something. I'll check with a friend who runs
a
AS> local BBS.
RV> Net mail in this local. No way. It's never work better then just to
RV> Kitchner and after that, it just disappeared. Kitchner is two hops
RV> from here. A multi hop routed net mail, not a chance.
Too bad.
RV> I've sent mail to Fred R. but that was direct ie: i called his
RV> bbs/front door system. He called back to me, direct. BBS routed net
RV> mail is like sending a post card through the snail mail, not something
RV> done if private access ONLY is wantted.
RV> Echo mail is one step down from bbs net-mail access.
Too bad you don't have email.
RV> I have no problem with my experience or talking of the same, but it
RV> sure as hell isn't reglious in nature.
Up to you, Ron.
... "A man's character is his fate." -- Heraclitus
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: I
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:02:30
EID:4a8e 22437840
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c721
AS> Well...it's a possibility, but then we have a lot of other stuff to
AS> explain, (i.e., the constants, etc.) another way.
RV> So Al. How many wars have started up over
RV> the value of 22/7 or He 2 and He II .Perhaps P=E*I or R=E^2/P
RV> where P=power in watts E=voltage I=current R=resistance they appear
RV> to be constants in my 'sample space'.
Probably flame wars in the math echoes...witness what is going on
concerning zero here...
RV> Guess what, god or no god, they still come out the same. Christian
RV> Fundy or Jew or pagen or whatever. There is No God/dess
RV> within my sample space. Hell, my 'sample space' will even work within
RV> a Curry sample space or at least one Curry can create. Yes Al, even
a
RV> Curry can be a creator god.
Then would his worshippers be Currying favor?
... I yam Popeye of the Borg. Prepares ta beez askimiligrated
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: I
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:03:58
EID:4a8e 22437860
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c722
AS> Then why isn't every child raped? Why would a divine sadist spare the
AS> majority of children?
RV> Perhaps in most cases, humans have greater power then Your Jesus God.
My "Jesus" god would not be a divine sadist. (Masochist, maybe...)
... I have lived here for 400 years and I have never seen a ghost.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: INTO MY PARLOR
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:59:49
EID:e2d7 2243af60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c723
MB> He has been trying to tell you for months now that the whole
MB> premise is hopelessly flawed. Even I can see that, and I
MB> don't know an anthropic cosmoligical principle from a hole
MB> in your head.
MB> Unless you can narrow down the problem to the point where
MB> you can get a handle on what odds you're actually dealing
MB> with, anything beyond that point if mere blathering. Now
MB> do you get it, or should I have Barney sing it for you?
AS> Please do. Also send it to professors of mathematical physics, such
AS> as Tipler, Wheeler, and Ellis.
LB> They have figured out a way to do a workable experiment to determine
LB> whether prayer works??
No, look above. Marilyn was talking about the anthropic principle.
LB> OH, nevermind, just more name dropping....
Better than dropping one argument and changing it mid-stream...
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: J.C. Investments Inc.
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:00:25
EID:7c22 2243b000
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c724
AS> And Jesus sure lived an expensive lifestyle...didn't he?
Jd> Did he?....got any evidence for that? How do you know his father
His complaining that He had no place to "lay his head"?
Jd> didn't make it as a rich developer and builder of the time?
Jd> Your bible says nothing bewteen the time of his birth, and his
Jd> appearance as a thirtyish rebel. He may have spent his youth at club
Jd> med, and the casinos in Babble-on.
Unlikely...but it doesn't matter. If He HAD been affluent, than He gave
it
all up to become a travelling preacher, with very little funds, dependent
on the good will of others to eat.
Jd> Don't you find it a bit strange Al, that the same clergy who claim,
Jd> "blessed are the poor, for their reward will be great in heaven." are
Jd> so bust getting THEIR reward in the here and now, rewards oh so
Jd> similar to the great capitalists you decry. The corporate structure
has
Jd> its skyscrapers and CEO's, the priesthood has its cathedrals and
Jd> Archbishops. Take a drive by your local Archbishops mansion, and tell
Jd> us again whether his concern is emulating the sandal-shod lifestyle
of
Jd> christ, or the trappings of a corporate CEO.
Certainly there are religious hypocrites in Christianity, as there were
in
Judaism in Jesus' day. But I also know people who literally left a good
professional job to become medical missionaries in Nigeria, and run a
hospital there free of cost to the patients, and free of any religious
indoctrination as a price of treatment either.
... Veni Vidi Fetuccini: I came, I saw, I had lunch.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:23:37
EID:8dd1 22437ae0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c725
MB> BTW, those cycles I just mentioned are one more rhythm that is
MB> present in a universe that is, after all said and done, chaotic,
MB> but still rhythmic enough for the curious to want to explore the
MB> rhythms, no presuppositions needed.
AS> Ahhhh, yes. And those ice age rythyms were SO obvious until we
AS> searched for them, weren't they?
MB> Hector's Law strikes again.
On the contrary, you are about to prove my point.
MB> There goes your "constants" that are the foundation of your "faith."
Hardly.
MB> And, did we search for the ice ages, or did we just stumble on them
MB> while digging around just to see what was there? Science is, after
MB> all said and done, little more than human beings indulging their
MB> curiosity.
We encountered some curious items, that DID NOT FIT what we thought we
knew of prehistory. And we invented a new theory to EXPLAIN same. In other
words, rather than having the regular rythym of things staying in the same
cycle of a temperate summer-winter cycle, we instead found evidence that
things were different once upon a time. Rather than keep to the rythym we
knew, we used the EXCEPTIONS to forge a new worldview, which is closer to
what is real. In otherwords, the exceptions to those rythyms are the ways
to break through to a new paradigm.
MB> But, the EARLY manifestations of it revolved around those things
MB> that seems consistently so to the human eye, resulting in the
MB> natural curiosity of a human being to explore what that consistency
MB> really meant.
No; take the discovery of dinosaurs. Diggers discovered tremendous bones
that are of no living animal. Rather than think the rythym of life that
they knew was eternal, they took these EXCEPTIONS and constructed from it
a new rythym, one closer to the truth. It is what does not fall into such
rhythyms that is important.
... All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Jesus, rape, and a child
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:29:58
EID:1fce 22437ba0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c726
RC> Al's Double Standard of Omnipotence:
RC> Jesus shares the pain of the victim (because he's there
RC> omnipotently), but never, never, never apply the exact
Nyet. Omnipresence is what you're talking about, not omnipotence. And
that's not why He identifies with the victim. It is a specific claim by
Jesus, and if we grant omnipotence, we can't say he can't do.
RC> same reasoning where Jesus shares the malevolence of the
RC> rapist (because he is there omnipotently).
Omnipresently.
AS> Quite easily. He is espousing, above all, our freedom to choose.
RC> So do you likewise espouse the freedom of your children to rape each
RC> other, Al? Would you turn your back on them when they're about to be
RC> raped because you choose not to interfere with the rapist's free will?
RC> Are you anywhere as near as grotesque as your idea of a god?
Would you then, vote for a measure to put a camera in every home, and a
taser, to punish those who might rape someone? It would doubtless work.
Would you vote for such a measure?
RC> while *refusing* to prevent a child's rape? You present your
RC> god as a monster.
AS> No;
RC> You mean you *DON'T* present your god as one that sits back to watch
RC> little children being raped while doing absolutely nothing to stop it?
I am saying that I am presenting Him as one who backs freedom of choice
for all.
AS> I present Him as one who makes a hard choice;
RC> Were the brutally tortured children consulted about this heavenly
RC> choice to throw them to the rapists? What a _loving_ god.
Better than one who would make a divine police state.
... Some people still think you need shaving cream to use Occam's Razor.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Kids life =$2 to a chrisi
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:02:01
EID:ef59 2243b040
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c727
AS> I just know we can only talk about the Infinite by analogy.
RC> ^^
RC> Ahem. Kindly speak for yourself.
That's right. Rick's very comfortable with the Infinite.
... Wonderful chap, The Doctor. All of them. - Brig. L. Stewart
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: L
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:05:04
EID:494e 224398a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c728
AS> DC> What would you do if your god demanded that you do that rape?
AS> Refuse without a second's thought, even if it meant damnation.
RV> How can a human who believes in a god, control what a god will or
RV> won't do. Or perhaps Al is claiming that he, Al, has the name of power
RV> over the god of the Jews.
Ron, it is built in to my worldview that I can refuse God. That is what
free will... is...all...about. Now, I can be taken over by a god. There
is no
way for me to stop omnipotence.
You can see I'm not really worried about either eventuality.
... Don't tell a woman she's pretty, tell her there's no one like her.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: L
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:10:11
EID:494e 22439940
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c729
AS> Doubtless when the nails were being driven in, there was no empathy..?
RV> Do you have empathy when you crush an ant ? You keep switching back
Sometimes. I don't burn ants with a magnifying glass.
RV> and forth all the time. If your Jesus is a god ie: alien NOT Human
RV> ....then likely there wouldn't be any empathy. Then too, since you
RV> proclaim along with others, that a god still lives,it would seem that
RV> humans tried to kill off an alien.
Alien to this reality, perhaps. But remember, I believe we are a product
of His deliberate design...as a painting reflects some of the temper of
its creator, or a novel.
RV> Drag the fucker back out and i will use a tack hammar to drive those
RV> spikes back in again. I'll give your god lots of empathy, a tack at
a
RV> time.
And what did He do to you, that He deserves such savagry?
AS> You guys kill me sometimes. You are so...Chritophobic? That you go on
RV> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
RV> ^ Are You A God ? ^ --ghost busters--
No, I'm one of the few people here who are NOT a god...
AS> these tirades of hyperbole, and hurt your cause more than you help it.
AS> Like Fred Rice with his "better educated" and "Christanic masters"
AS> nonsense, or Sean's blanket pronouncements. Grow up.
RV> What of those Christians that P R O C L A I M all people S I N.
RV> Then they go on a "tirades of hyperbole" of unevidence god/s, hell,
RV> heaven,love........etc......etc........ and all that shit.
RV> Creation Science........the science of a Christian Believer. Right Al.
RV> No hyperbole there, is there.
Yes, Ron. There is hyperbole there. And that's one reason I'm not a fan
of
Pat Robertson, the ICR, and Jerry Fallwell.
RV> Agree on one point you made. Fred R."beter educated" statement, gets
RV> shot down in flames, just useing yourself persay, and myself.
-from a 'Rice' rain
I don't care what level of education you reached, Ron. You're much smarter
than you give yourself credit for.
... "Sheesh! Try to do something nice, and you get flamed!" -- Joan of Arc
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Limited immortality
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:03:09
EID:1a4b 2243b060
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c72a
AS> But since we know nothing of the afterlife except few hints, we
AS> don't know if there is any sort of preperation needed for the
AS> afterlife. We might mess up things by doing it too soon...
Jd> Strange how there is so much concern for the immortal soul in the
Jd> 'afterlife', yet no mention is made of the 'beforelife'......
If there is one. (And if there is, we don't remember it. A difference that
makes no difference is no difference...)
... Aw, come on! I would NEVER go that far!!! Well, maybe...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:13:56
EID:ee8c 224399a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c72b
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Al Schroeder <=-
-> On 27 Jan 97 03:56:11, Al Schroeder got back to Roger Hunter
AS> What if there is an imprint on the soul that allows the brain to
AS> impress the "mind" on it?
DC> What if there is a litter box for the cat to shit into?
I certainly HOPE so...
... I met some crazy people. They made me their leader...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: MORE GRIST FROM THE W
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:14:52
EID:ee8c 224399c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c72c
AS> Odd. I didnt' think we helped sociopaths, but rather, locked them up.
AS> And in some cases execute them.
DC> Good thing that Galileo got to live, isn't it.
Yes. But of course, he wasn't put under house arrest for being a
sociopath, was he?
... If you're happy and you know it, clank your chains...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: No Pain
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:18:20
EID:614a 22439a40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c72d
AS> Actually, I agree the other way...the loss of a limb doesn't compare
AS> to the tortured death of the entire body.
DC> So, Al, just where is that dead god? If it's not dead, I
DC> do think you should ask it why it isn't.
And He would answer,"So you all might live."
AS> Well...some of you I might have a LITTLE contempt for...
DC> Try doing that with the god that died and still lives
DC> that lied to you about dying.
He didn't lie about dying. He just didn't stay dead. There's a difference
there.
... The race is over. The rats won.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: omni-sadistic
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:20:31
EID:7444 22439a80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c72e
AS> I would stop the rape. But then, that's MY free will working.
MB> So your god has less free will than you do. That's interesting.
MB> I didn't know you were a deist.
Some have called me a theist with deist tendencies. But no, I believe God
has free will. And it is His free will to allow us free will...even with
the possibility of cruelty and evil, even when applied to others of
us...rather than make us automata.
... All the world's a stage, and most of us are desperately unrehearsed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: omni-sadistic
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:23:09
EID:78c8 22439ae0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c72f
AS> Sure. In either case...they are allowed to exercise their
AS> free will.
RC> Do you think it is ethical to refrain from interfering in the free
RC> expression of opinions we see here in HolySmoke? In comparison,
Yes.
RC> do you think it is also ethical to refrain from interfering with
RC> the imminent rape of a small child?
It depends on how you are interfering with it, Robert. Exploding an atom
bomb and destroying a city, even to stop the rape of a small girl, would
I
think, be the wrong action. So would robbing mankind of free will.
... Science without Religion is lame... --Einstein
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: omni-sadistic
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:30:00
EID:78c8 22439bc0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c730
AS> You know, it's odd how some people will castigate simplistic
AS> fallacies in others and not notice it in themselves. Presence
AS> doesn't mean identity.
RC> So are you saying that you believe Jesus is equally present in both
RC> the brutally tortured victim AND in the fanatical Inquisitor who
RC> inflicts pain in the name of Jesus?
On the strength of Jesus' own words, Jesus is identified with the victims,
and the downtrodden. I.E., identity. Presence doesn't mean identity...just
as you are not your intestinal fungi.
RC> Are you sticking with the idea of an omnipresent god or are you
RC> discarding it?
Very good! You actually used the right word this time rather than
"omnipotent". I am sticking with the idea of a omnipresent God. But
presence doesn't mean identity.
RC> Which?
See above.
AS> Jesus specifically identifies Himself with the downtrodden,
AS> not the oppressor.
RC> You were the one, Al, not I, who initially stated that Jesus
RC> supposedly suffers with a victim because he is there (as part
RC> of an omnipresent god).
No, because Jesus specifically said he was with the victims, the
downtrodden, the poor, the naked...that what was done for them was done
for Him, what was not done to them was not done to Him. Time and space
are omnipresent in this universe. But we are more than just time and
space.
AS> Recognize a joke when you see it, o humorless one.
RC> I can see you just fine, Al.
From FLORIDA??? ROFL!!!
AS> It would be if I am addressing a believer, Robert. That may
AS> be why I addressed it to Lynda, rather than yourself.
RC> ROFL!
RC> Hey, Lynda! Now you're a believer in the ability of quoted pages
RC> of verses to turn someone's inherited make believe into a more
RC> worthy religion. Al said so, so you know it's gotta be true, right?
Last I talked with her, she has gone back to the label of "Christian". And
yes, I think such verses will mean something to her. Of course I could be
wrong. And no, I do not say they will mean everything to her, or convince
her.
... If idiots could fly, this would be an airport.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Partial Virgin a little pregnant.
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:35:33
EID:7e0d 22439c60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c731
Jd> It's irrelevant whether it makes a difference to you - it's still a
Jd> mainstay of the christian dogma.
You're saying I'm not a "real, true Christian"?
Jd> Is this an indication of some major cracks in your faith, or are you
Jd> bellying up to the christian salad bar to pick and choose the dishes
Jd> that don't look too far out?
It's a point I have felt for off and on twenty years. I'm not saying she
wasn't a virgin...if you have a being who was raised from the dead, a
little thing like a virgin birth is nothing I would balk at...but I find
the beginning much less interesting than the ending. Jesus being born, no
matter how conceived...well, children or born every day. But if He really
opened a way where all will NOT die...
AS> The important thing to a Christian is usually the Resurrection,
AS> more than say, Christmas.
Jd> So we're back-pedalling on the virgin birth [because it looks too
Jd> absurd for the semi-educated to swallow anymore?] and focusing our
Jd> resources on the rez-erection?
Jan, ask any Christian minister which holiday of his church is most
important. Very few will answer "Christmas". Very many will say, "Easter".
I don't deny the virgin birth. I just say that if it WERE disproved, it
would not be shattering to my faith. If one disproved the RESURRECTION,
then I'd be in YOUR camp, immediately.
... Ignorance is Bliss... I want to destroy your happyness.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Phallus sees pharisees
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:38:32
EID:7d22 22439cc0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c732
Jd> How DARE you contradict your own god, Al!
AS> I don't want to get all Prewitt-ish on you, but what the Pope
AS> decides God says, and what I think God's word tells us, are two
AS> different things.
Jd> Back to the 'no true christian ' fallact, again, eh Al.
Jd> Aren't you aware, Al, that no matter how many times you repeat a
Jd> fallacy, it still remains a fallacy. As matter of fact, Al - that's
Jd> another fallacy.
Jd> F45 The "No True Scotsman..." fallacy
Jd> Suppose I assert that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. You
Jd> counter this by pointing out that your friend Angus likes sugar
Jd> with his porridge. I then say "Ah, yes, but no true Scotsman puts
Jd> sugar on his porridge.
Jd> This is an example of an ad hoc change being used to shore up an
Jd> assertion, combined with an attempt to shift the meaning of the
Jd> words used original assertion. You might call it a combination of
Jd> fallacies.
Jd> [AND]
Jd> F13 Argumentum ad nauseam
Jd> This is the incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be
Jd> true, or is more likely to be accepted as true, the more often it
Jd> is heard. So an Argumentum ad Nauseam is one that employs constant
Jd> repetition in asserting something; saying the same thing over and
Jd> over again until you're sick of hearing it.
Jd> (On Usenet, your argument is often less likely to be heard if you
Jd> repeat it over and over again, as people will tend to put you in
Jd> their kill files.)
Jan, you would be MUCH more interesting if you wouldn't consistently
misrepresent. To say I disagree with the Pope on some matters (which I do),
is not to say he is not a "real, true Christian"...which I never said.
Jd> You should really try giving up the practice of deception, Al.
Jd> You would feel much less tense, and probably live longer too.
Hmmm. I'll leave flowers on your grave, at this rate...
... I love the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Prayer Doesn't Work
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:40:12
EID:3f81 22439d00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c733
Jd> Cancel your health insurance, and see Beny Hinn.
AS> No thanks.
DC> ----------------------
DC> What else is there to say? Al says it all.
Don't look for me to become a Christian Scientist, either. For us to
forsake the minds we have and the advantages we CAN muster would be to me
an insult to the God who created us with those minds.
... "And my ending is despair unless I be reliev'd by prayer,"-Shakespeare
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: PSYCHOGAWD
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:41:54
EID:4028 22439d20
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c734
AS> Odd. I didnt' think we helped sociopaths, but rather, locked them up.
AS> And in some cases execute them.
Jd> You're confusing psychopaths with sociopaths. The sociopaths lack of
a
Jd> social conscience makes them ideal stockbrokers and preachers - no
Jd> conscience to hinder financial scamming and lyin fer the lard.
Well, SOME sociopaths are dangerous, in that they refuse to empathize with
others. I agree it is a handy trait for some stockbrokers, and yes, even
some preachers...to say nothing of used car salesmen.
... Wizard's Guild parking only. Violators will be toad!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Publisher's Sweepstakes
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:43:15
EID:5059 22439d60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c735
AS> But I didn't say that. I don't think it, in that sense. I think
AS> it is the work of a great many men...some of which may have been
AS> guided by God...or perhaps those who put it together were. I
AS> don't think...per se...that this is a word-for-word dictation
AS> from the Infinite.
Jd> Well then, Al, which group who put it together were guided by god -
Jd> the team that came up with the version including the apochrypha, or
the
Jd> team that assembled the version without?
Jd> After all, an infallible, all-knowing god wouldn't guide a team of men
Jd> into ERROR would he?
Notice how both groups have a lot of books in common. It is those you
might look at more closely.
... By all means, let's not confuse ourselves by the facts.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: quantum nutball shit
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:44:42
EID:30d8 22439d80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c736
JB> Ye gawds. Al? You're MORE verbose than me?
Mea culpa.
... Guns don't kill. Hyper-velocity projectiles do.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:51:11
EID:4d85 22439e60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c737
AS> "Brother, what you are saying will lead others DANGEROUSLY astray,
AS> and it is my DUTY to warn you, as a Christian brother, that you are
AS> teaching
AS> dangerous doctrine..."
AS> Yeah. Not my cuppa tea.
JB> (*grin*) I think, but probably can't demonstrate, that when a
JB> believer gets told the above, he reacts _emotionally_ the same way
a
JB> nonbeliever reacts when told "your mother wears combat boots." (Note
JB> I have politely refrained from using a much more likely phrase inside
JB> the quote marks....)
Exactly. I had a preacher once who went to talk to a guy who hadn't been
to church in twenty years. He was almost at the point of talking the guy
into attending a service, when one of the church members insisted on going
with him. The preacher gave a nice little talk about all the wonderful
people who go to the church, the quiet time, the fellowship....almost got
the guy to agree...when the churchgoer spoke up and said, "An' iffen yew
don't come, Nathan Smith, ye'll burn in HELL!"
Needless to say, the guy didn't come to church. Needless to say, the
preacher could have strangled the churchgoer if he gave into his first
impulses.
JB> IOW, I don't think there's much _biochemical_ (feeling chemistry;
JB> endocrine gland output; "emotion") difference between a believer being
JB> called out on his beliefs, and anyone else being called out on his
JB> personal opinion of himself. That's one reason I suspect (_strongly_)
JB> that the "believer" is often just as much victim of his EGO as the
JB> ordinary person and/or nonbeliever. It's just the believer has
JB> "distanced himself" from his true self, by believing that GOD is being
JB> attacked instead of his BELIEF IN God.
Or even better yet...his IDEA of God, which necessarily must be
incomplete, if we are really dealing with an infinite or near-infinite
being.
... I liked Occam's razor so much I bought the company.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: S
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:53:25
EID:810f 22439ea0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c738
AS> What if there is an imprint on the soul that allows the brain to impress
AS> the "mind" on it?
RV> And if the brain is scramble from the word go but the body lives
RV> it's three score and ten ? On death is the soul lost ? A baby that
RV> dies 30 seconds after birth ? connections after birth> A day/week/month can also be placed in that
RV> 30 second bit after birth. If there is no mind
RV> what is there to impress upon the soul ? zip --- nothing --- or what?
Got me, Ron. As Paul said, even if we Christians are right, we see
"through a glass darkly". We don't know all the answers.
... If love is blind, lingerie makes great Braille.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: T
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:56:41
EID:434e 22439f00
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c739
AS> Do I pay her royalties in chocolate?
RV> If you don't want the feel of the cat of nine tails licking your
RV> ass, it may be a good idea. Brit/Dutch chocolate is the better way.
Thanks for the recommendation. My problem is if I buy any, it will be
claimed by my wife long before I could send it to Lynda.
... I am in search of myself. Anyone see me lately?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: the real world
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:05:34
EID:ac8d 2243a0a0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c73a
AS> Why do they not just stay only in the channels that they are
AS> useful in, rather than working against (seemingly) the species'
AS> long-term benefit?
RC> Are you suffering from the delusion that we were designed, Al?
The universe was, in my opinion. Evolution "designed" us.
RC> Then you might expect clear-cut delineations between various
RC> "channels" of behavior, instead of the real world ambiguities
RC> and unexpected interrelations that actually exist.
IOW, the world's too complicated a thing to act the way it should, and
shut up and don't make waves.
Sorry. I still will.
RC> Your unreasonable expectations are the main problem here, I'd say.
RC> Try taking off the religious blinders.
In some company, blinders are to be RECOMMENDED.
RC> Ambiguous at best, Al. Evolution does not operate in a vacuum.
RC> What is not conducive to the survival of a species under
RC> one set of circumstances can be quite conducive under
RC> different ones. You cannot ignore the environmental effect
RC> of technology on the processes of biological evolution.
AS> Considering that we have only had any technology to speak
AS> of for eight thousand years, and have been recognizably
AS> human for, ohhh, a hundred thousand to a million years, I
AS> venture to say that it has had little or no impact so far.
RC> It requires modern technology, Al, for a decision to be made
RC> about allowing one's "defective" offspring to be born. How else
RC> will you come to the conclusion that a fetus is "defective?"
By waiting until they are born, and then seeing. Sadly, many abandoned
children to the elements because of those defects, in centuries past. Even
the "defect" of being born female. If they don't live to reproducing age,
it would be the same---evolutionarily--as if the fetus was eliminated.
AS> Unless you think there is a great deal of difference
AS> between Cro-Magnon man and modern man.
RC> You were talking about deciding whether to allow one's "defective"
RC> offspring to be born. Please tell me how Cro-Magnons determined
RC> whether or not a fetus was "defective" -- take your time.
Sure. They saw the child who was born. IF the child was badly deformed,
they could be "disposed" of, unfortunately. Again, if they don't live to
reproductive age, the commulative effect on the human gene pool would be
the same.
RC> In the context you provided, Al, there is a vital distinction:
RC> Technology has made the choice you brought up POSSIBLE. Before
RC> we had the ability to determine whether a fetus is in some sense
RC> "defective," such decisions could not be made.
If you eliminated those with heriditary diseases, such as haemophilia,
before they would reproduce, it would eliminate THEIR offspring from ever
being born. Obviously.
... "Who is this who darkens council with words without knowledge?" Job
38
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: the real world
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:15:21
EID:ac8d 2243a1e0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c73b
AS> NOW. But when humankind was faced with the Ice Ages, and lived
AS> very precariously indeed, you think such impulses would have
AS> been stamped out of us.
RC> How so? Don't you think that caring for the injured has potential
RC> survival value for a gregarious, cooperative species? You could
RC> say "No -- if you are injured, then you are deficient, and you must
RC> die to satisfy this evolutionary rule," but that is not the rule
RC> of biological evolution, Al; that is only your unwarranted distortion.
And supporting those who contribute very little to the group, and feeding
them, when food is scarce...making less food for everyone, including the
hunters and gatherers who could bring in more food?
RC> Caring for the injured promotes the survival of a species when
RC> groups of individuals can help their descendents propagate better
RC> than isolated individuals can. Do you at least see this?
I certainly agree that cooperation has its benefits. But not all
individuals contribute to the whole. Some detract from it. Especially when
living is precarious.
RC> Now, please note that the feelings which are selected for are just
RC> that: feelings. They are not hardwired information about respecting
RC> the lives *only* of the injured and to hell with any others you
RC> might term "deficient." That's not the way feelings operate, Al.
Yes, it ISN'T, is it, Robert. And that's the interesting thing. We make
judgements like that all the time, even of things we have feelings about.
People can care for canines, or cattle, love them as pets or charges, but
yet will eliminate a bad bloodline to keep the total gene pool stronger.
But we do not do that with ourselves.
Thank goodness.
RC> Those impulses encouraged by natural selection (because the people
RC> for whom they come naturally were able to thrive better) didn't
RC> come with an intellectual command to apply such feelings exclusively
RC> to some situations and not to others. Feelings are not so cut and dry.
They are in other situations, Rob. See above.
RC> So what exactly is it that still mystifies you about this?
Altruism that makes no genetic or societal sense. As I have said many
times before. An example; many primitive societies regard the mad as
holy, and not to be touched. Yet obviously the mad cannot contribute as
much to society as the sane. And there is certainly a genetic componment
to some sorts of mental illness, like schizophrenia. The sensible,
evolutionary thing to do would be to elminate those before they could
breed and have offspring. But we don't. We very rarely did (Hitler's
Germany is an obvious exception). Why? It makes perfect sense. But thank
goodness, we don't.
... My apologies if that made any sense at all...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: the real world
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:18:01
EID:ac8d 2243a240
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c73c
AS> NOW. But when humankind was faced with the Ice Ages, and lived
AS> very precariously indeed, you think such impulses would have
AS> been stamped out of us.
RC> In precarious times, which would really have the better chance of
RC> survival -- groups of people who felt like leaving their injured
RC> alone to die, thus causing the group to diminish, or groups who felt
RC> like helping those who are injured, adding to the group more people
RC> who work cooperatively together?
The one which would have the best chance of surviving is the one that left
the truly helpless cases to die, and those who carried heriditary diseases
to die, and cooperated with those who could heal themselves.
RC> And you say that you read _Blind Watchmaker_? If so, why didn't you
RC> learn anything from it?
I learned a lot. Also from THE SELFISH GENE. But Dawkins is not the last
word on the subject.
... If you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire. - Nietzsche
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Thinking BANNED!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:28:26
EID:890f 2243a380
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c73d
AS> No, the old 'red herring' fallacy. From you. If you claim that
AS> Christians don't think, the above list is VERY pertinent.
Jd> Well, Al - just WHO have been busy banning and burning BOOKS?
Well, such book burning started with the pagans...against Christian works.
See, for instance, Diocletian's Great Persecution.
Jd> Who maintained the INDEX of FORBIDDEN literature - that atheists?
That is certainly a product of the Catholic Church. I often find it
instructive to read what they are forbidding. Such as FINNEGINS' WAKE.
Jd> GUFFAW!
Jd> Who obstructed the medical profession from doing dissections to gain
Jd> knowledge - to the extent that they had to work in secret and employ
Jd> graverobbers?
Interestingly enough, after Galen died, his successors could no longer
do the comparative anatomy studies that Galen did...because of the Romans'
religious scruples. (Although as Curtis has said, it was done in
Alexandria.)
Jd> Who tried prevent the inventor of the microscope form using his device
Jd> to see into 'forbidden' worlds?
Some clergy. And again, some clergy didn't agree.
Jd> Who has blocked the dissemination of knowledge in the area of
Jd> sexuality and birth control?
Some clergy. And again, some clergy don't agree...just ask Jesse Jackson.
Jd> Who deprived mankind of a millenium of science in the dark ages?
Um. Who devised the doctrine of experimentally determining the
truth? The monk Roger Bacon.
Jd> Who blocked the use of anasthesia in childbirth for decades, because
Jd> god 'wanted' women to suffer?
Some clergy. And again...not all clergy.
Jd> Who want to replace scince in the schools with superstition, aka
Jd> 'Creation 'Science''?
No; I very much would NOT.
Jd> Who forbade the early astronomers from disseminating the truth,
Jd> because it cintradicted dogma?
Some clergy. Other clergy were very interested. Copernicus was a canon of
the church.
Jd> Who executed many fine scientific minds for 'heresy'?
Some of the clergy. Who number some fine scientific minds among them? The
clergy, also. The monk Mendel, the priest Lemaitre...
Jd> Who even opposed making the contents of the BIBLE known to the masses?
Some clergy. Others wanted it printed in their native languages, for that
very reason. Just ask the people who worked on the King James Bible.
Jd> Who passed laws to keep blacks from education?
Um. The state legislatures of various states?
Jd> Who destroyed the written knowledge of American indigoenous peoples?
Some clergy. Who preserved the knowledge of many pagan writings? Some
clergy.
Jd> Was all this an encouragement to THINK, Al?
Some of it was, Jan. See above.
... Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Re: Thinking BANNED!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:34:53
EID:890f 2243a440
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c73e
AS> Great scientists who are Christians include Pascal and Guass,
AS> Faraday and Maxwell, Boyle, Lord Kelvin, Gregor Mendel
AS> among many others, besides the thinkers listed above.
Jd> Name-dropping, Al? The old 'argument from authority' phallusy?
AS> No, the old 'red herring' fallacy. From you. If you claim that
AS> Christians don't think, the above list is VERY pertinent.
Jd> Iclaim that christianity suppresses thinking in favour of
Jd> superstitious dogma and ignorance.
Unfortunately for you, the above names...and the ones above them...say
you're wrong.
Jd> I noice your list consist of 'ancients'. As you very well know, such
Jd> men would never have had the opportunity to pursue their interests had
Jd> they not professed to be believers in their times.
Among the "thinkers listed above" I included the PRIEST Lemaitre....who
lives in the early part of THIS century...and figured out there must have
been a Big Bang. And Kelvin is an ANCIENT? I might also mention Alan
Sandage, successor to Hubble, who is a believer...or G.F.R. Ellis,
sometimes known as Geoerge Ellis. Both cosmologists of reknown, and not
in
an ICR sense either.
Jd> we can only despair over how many MORE great minds might have been
Jd> productive had it NOT been for the stifling by religious superstition
Jd> and oppression.
Well, let's look, Jan, In the ancient world, despite many brillant
thinkers, was there a Scientific Revolution? Or did the ancients often
think--Aristotle is the only exception that comes immediately to MY mind,
although there certainly might be others---that such testing for
conclusions was vulger. Hero invented a steam turbine long before Christ.
If someone had applied it, there could have been steam engines by Caesar's
day, and perhaps atomic bombs in the century after that...after all, that
it the gap between steam engines and atom bombs between the 19th and 20th
centuries.
Jd> It is quite likely that some, or most, of the individuals you named
Jd> did not privately beleive, but professed to, for the sake of their
Jd> careers.
"Is not!" is more usual around here, Jan. But their writings contradict
you. Newton went out of his way to write elaborate defenses of
Christianity, even doing Ussherian timelines.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Thinking BANNED!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:42:13
EID:890f 2243a540
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c73f
AS> But the list above doesn't give credence to Christianity....but
AS> it DOES give credence to the fact that many Christians think, and
AS> think well. Catch the difference?
Jd> And what does that prove? Deaf people can write symphonies, and blind
Jd> people can arrange flowers. All you've proven is that talented,
Jd> energetic indivuals can be productive, in spite of handicaps,
Jd> including religious mind-control.
But you're prejudging it as religious mind-control. Think free of
prejudice, please.
Jd> It doesn't invalidate the fact that christianity despises thinking.
I'm sure Tolkien would have been interested by that statement. And many
another believer who won honours for their intellect.
Jd> As a long time participant here, you can hardly claim not to have
Jd> noticed that the 'religious' who venture here invariably know their
Jd> 'bible' poorly in comparison to the 'non-beleivers', and come up with
Jd> illogic and false analogies that certainly indicate they AREN'T
Jd> THINKING before babbling contradictory nonsense and dogma.
Certainly I have seen silly fundies...what even I would consider
fundies...make illogical statement here. I have also seen some make some
reasonable, reasoned statements. By the same token, I have seen outrageous
hyperbole from the likes of Fred Rice that sound rather remarkably like
Cotton Mather consigning the unbelievers to Hell. I think, also, there is
a selection process here. Some people are offended by the blasphemy here.
I'm not, particularly. But many reasonable posters have looked and decided
that it's not their cuppa tea, because they dislike flame wars.
Jd> They certainly haven't looked at both sides of the issue, as any
Jd> thinking person does.
Some have. Or are you saying that Mike Hardy didn't used to try to look
at
both sides of the issue when he was on the Christian side of the argument?
Or Lynda? Or Dave Hamilton?
... Deja Voodoo: Have I sacrificed this chicken before?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: unThinking not
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:44:52
EID:fcdf 2243a580
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c740
AS> If you eliminate the consequences, you allow the sadists to be
AS> sadists for the rest of their life, monsters. Vlad Tepes impales
AS> pseudo-Turk after pseudo-Turk and gets lost in bloodlust. Ted Bundy
AS> goes around raping pseudo-girl after pseudo-girl, and no one stops
AS> him, and he gets sicker and sicker. Jeff Dahlmer opens up a fried
AS> pseudo-human delicatessan.
LB> With absolutely NO ONE being hurt by it. Do you consider DOOM to be
an
LB> evil game, Al?
By no means do I consider DOOM an evil game. But I do consider cruelty
just for cruelty's sake as damaging to the individual who does it, almost
as much as the victim. And if encouraged, society as a whole will also
suffer.
... Hatred is the madness of the heart.--Lord Byron.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: UNTHINKING NOT
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:48:06
EID:ab5e 2243a600
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c741
AS> If you eliminate the consequences, you allow the sadists to be
AS> sadists for
AS> the rest of their life, monsters. Vlad Tepes impales pseudo-Turk
AS> after pseudo-Turk and gets lost in bloodlust. Ted Bundy goes around
AS> raping pseudo-girl after pseudo-girl, and no one stops him, and he
AS> gets sicker and sicker. Jeff Dahlmer opens up a fried pseudo-human
AS> delicatessan.
RH> And in this scenario, who gets hurt? Not the perpetrator, he's
RH> toast anyway. Not the victims, they're not real. Who, then?
The perpetrator DOES get hurt. Some actually do realize the error of their
ways and try to make good. But if they never realize it's wrong, there is
no chance of that. Instead, they will encourage others to do the same.
AS> As He was also the creator behind every life, whatsoever?
RH> And there is the real solution. Evil people should never be born.
RH> God knows who they are/will be, He's omniscient. No one gets hurt,
RH> free will is preserved, the flames of Hell can die out. Everyone
RH> wins.
Sure. Free will, as long as what you freely want is what God wants. Seems
rather futile, don't you think?
... Every morning is the dawn of a new error...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Vanilla Essence
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:49:05
EID:90f5 2243a620
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c742
AS> Whether Jesus was immaculately conceived, or the essence
AS> of God entered into a normal conception, is a difference
AS> that makes no difference to me.
Jd> Duh, what is the "essence of god".....sperm? Spiritual sperm?
Haven't the foggiest, Jan. Just somehow this baby was one with God.
... Last time you knew all the answers, you were wrong...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: victims "free" to suffer
|Date: 03 Feb 97 20:54:40
EID:2433 2243a6c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c743
AS> By not forcing them to act, either way.
RC> The child is being raped by force, you idiot! So you agree with
Not by God, Robert.
RC> the saying that god is on the side of the larger battalions?
Oftentimes the largest battalions win, yes.
RC> Oh - but Jesus isn't *personally* molesting the child, so in your
RC> eyes that makes it perfectly justifiable and right. Strange how you
RC> couldn't behave in such a monstrous fashion yourself; maybe you do
RC> realize that you don't have to *personally* molest a child to be
RC> responsible for criminal negligence and child abuse as an accessory
RC> before, during, and after the fact. It takes your god to do that.
You can also be responsible for enslaving others...or you can set them
free. But you don't set them half-free.
RC> Spoken like a true slave.
AS> Better than being a slave to one's genetics and enviornment,
AS> Robert. Which is the alternative.
RC> No, Al: Reality is the alternative to your horrific make believe.
A reality where many murderers and rapists die never being caught, never
even realizing they did wrong.
RC> So again I ask, how is the "free will" of a child about to be raped
RC> maintained by Jesus leaning back to watch the vicious attack?
RC> Rape doesn't constrain the choices available for a child to decide
RC> upon?
Certainly it is constrained...by another human's cruelty and misuse of
free will. Not God's.
AS> But free will means even the free will to impose your will
AS> on others.
RC> If you have the larger battalions.
Yes, sometimes....
RC> Gee, just as if no god existed at all. Isn't that right?
No. If there is no god, than a careful rapist will get away with it
forever, and die just as peacefully...probably more so...than his victims.
If there is a god, though they might get away with it for a time, there
will be a final, inescapable judgement.
... He saw The Exorcist nine times. I don't know what possessed him.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: wishes and assertions
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:20:38
EID:e2dc 2243aa80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c744
AS>> To assert that there is no reason why the laws of physics
AS>> are as they are
RC> Who, pray tell, has asserted that?
RC> Great. Let's see how you screw this one up:
AS> From: Mark Kimes
RC> : As has been stated hundreds of times, Al, you have no idea what
RC> : other values might be possible, and there are better explanations
RC> : than your "I don't know and I ain't gonna look" (i.e. "gods
RC> : dunnit") copout. Even "they just are that way" is a better
RC> : explanation, as it doesn't rely on introducing an unevidenced
RC> : entity.
AS> (End quote)
AS> It was certainly claimed to be a better alternative than
AS> theism, for instance...
RC> Yes, it was, but so what? He didn't assert it; he simply pointed out
RC> the fact that it would be an improvement on theistic superstition.
"Assert: to state or declare positively...." which is the first meaning
that comes up in my dictionary.
Are you saying Mark did NOT state or declare positively that "they just
are that way" is a better alternative to theism?
Or what do you mean?
Or do you even know anymore?
RC> So who asserted your strawman, Al? Really.
Who stated or declared positively the above? Mark. Obviously.
RC> If someone mentioned that SANTA CLAUS is a better answer than Jesus,
RC> does that say to you, in your warped opinion, that it's an assertion
RC> for the actual existence of Santa Claus?
Robert, are you feeling okay, or have you had one of your lapses again?
Where in the above do you see anything equivelent to "an assertion for the
actual existence of Santa Claus"? Mark certainly stated the above. He
didn't say...nor did I say he said...it was the ONLY answer. For Mark/Hec,
to do him credit, knows much more science than that...or you.
RC> LOL! You must be trying for the EchoMoron award.
I wouldn't DREAM of robbing you of such a winning streak, Robert. Year
after year...
... So far back in the hills, even the Episcopalians handle snakes.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: wishes and assertions
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:14:11
EID:e2dc 2243b1c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c745
AS> So his invective afterwards was dependent on the first.
RC> Isn't that how the word "if" is generally utilized, Al? Hmmm?
Which could be why I denied the original assertion...which was dependent
on that "if".
AS> And since the first didn't apply, it is meaningless.
RC> OK, so you're not *more* stupid than I thought. :-)
I wish I could say the same about you......
... Science without Religion is lame... --Einstein
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: without consent
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:26:37
EID:4053 2243ab40
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c746
AS> I see. Then if a eccentric billionaire deposits a million
AS> dollars in your bank account, and you really need the money,
AS> he is instead not doing you a favor, but a disservice?
RC> She said (correctly) that consent doesn't apply. She can't consent
RC> to such a thing after it is already a fait accompli, can she?
She also implied that such things without consent are invariably a
disservice. And they aren't.
AS> There seems to be a lot of gas in this echo, lately...first
AS> Mark, now you...
RC> In honor of your status as the Official HolySmoke Gasbag, yes.
Better to be a Noble Gas than a Liquid Plumber.
... A few beans short of a burrito.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: Y
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:27:43
EID:868f 2243ab60
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c747
AS> RH> Do you sometimes get the feeling that you can't do ANYthing right?
AS>
AS> On THIS echo? All the time.
RV> That's why _your_ god put us here.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition...
... Welcome to Dante's! Which level of Hell will you be visiting today?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: _
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:36:33
EID:840f 2243ac80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c748
AS> If she had been nursing bitterness about it, she wouldn't have sung
a hymn
AS> of praise afterwards. It was not expected, required, extorted. It seems
to
AS> be genuine joy. Unless we have evidence to the contrary...and I see
AS> none...I think we should take that as an indication.
RV> You have had CattyB drag out her pass and post many words explaining
RV> her life with an abuser, by your statement right above, it went right
RV> over your head. All one can hope is that it helps another women/person
RV> since at least it has passed you by.
RV> If you want to keep the body alive, you will do _anything_, even fake
RV> happy/joy in hopes of liveing. For this ---there is evidence--- You
RV> want better, get in touch with a group that helps abuse victums.
Ron, anything is POSSIBLE. Yes, Mary MIGHT have been scared and
intimidated enough to fake happiness. OR...contrariwise...she MIGHT have
been genuinely happy, and not faking. Now, suppose someone is accused of
abusing a dead spouse. And they went through all the records of how they
acted, and saw...without exception...that the spouse acted happily and
seemed very content with their mate. Is it fair, then, to make the
ASSUMPTION (nothing more) that the spouse was indeed abused, in the
absence of ANY evidence to the contrary? I hope not. How would you like
it if a woman, who had been hitherto friendly to you, disappeared, where
we couldn't quiz her...and suddenly you were accused of abusing her? (Or
me, or anybody. Not singling you out, because I think that is the OPPOSITE
ofyour mindset.) And no matter how many things you can show that she was
happy to be with you, friendly, someone said, "She was faking happy/joy
in
hopes of living". To an outsider, it might seem POSSIBLE. But is it fair
for the presumption to be that one if guilty until proven innocent?
Even if we're talking about God and Mary?
... The rumors of my death have been greatly exagerrated.--Twain
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: _
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:39:18
EID:840f 2243ace0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 32f6c749
AS> As far as I know, neither had people giving up their lives for a claim
of
AS> miracles within the lifetime of those who could debunk same...
RV> You have yet to show that the so called people, really lived. Somewhat
Tacitus and Seutonius show that people endured persecution for Christian
beliefs, within thirty years of Jesus' death.
RV> like you have yet to show that there is some god. You have yet to
RV> show that any words within the bible can be taken at face value. As
RV> a God Breath book if one is true then all must be, if dead bodies fly
RV> on sun beams then a parting sea or world flood is no problem. We have
a
RV> talking donkey talking snakes flying> Parting sea floating axe heads
RV> so one part is [ FOR REAL ] but not another ? Ok, sounds like a lie
to
RV> me. Flat earth/4 corners, A Satan
RV> many demons walking on water,
RV> killing fig trees, Yup, sure sounds like something
RV> i should live my life around. So Al in your 'Sample Space' what are
RV> the real constants for life to develope around ?
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy
mind, and with all thy soul; and you shall love your neighbour like
yourself. On these two things hang all the laws and prophets..."
I doubt if you would agree with the first. But you might agree with the
second.
... Hot Fudge Sundae falls on a Tuesday this year.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:21
EID:263a 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a86a
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
JB>>> Cantor demonstrated (I've read one about him, too), many ways of
JB>>> being meddled with, but even Cantor could not at last escape the
JB>>> conclusion there had to be a sort of top-level infinity.
HP>> Did he add one to it? :-)
JB> That, according to my reading, is exactly why he had to propose it.
JB> Knowing he could always add 1 to ANY "infinity" he came up with, enabled
JB> him to stop with that "final infinity," which is the infinity that
JB> accommodates all added '1's, including the '1's added to _IT_.
Now, add one to it. :-)
HP>> Tsk, tsk. You can't talk the talk, can't walk the walk -- but you
HP>> can sure quack like a duck.
JB> Opinionated asshole-isms in his text reveals more about the attacker
JB> than the attackee....
It's hardly an attack, John. It's simply a statement of fact, about you,
by me.
___
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Ceppa - Holographic
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:25
EID:8099 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a86c
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
HP>>>> The fact that reality appears to be non-local doesn't conjure gods,
HP>>>> John. You're doing that all by yourself.
JB>>> I demonstrate that the Universe as-a-whole HAS TO BE "intelligent"
JB>>> merely by showing that we are; we (brains) are made of the stuff that
JB>>> exhibits nonlocal properties
HP>> Pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo, John. Rocks aren't "intelligent," yet
HP>> they "are made of the stuff that exhibits nonlocal properties."
JB> You miss the point.
JB> Place a wire-frame object into a swimming pool.
Right nice pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo, John. But the plain fact of the
matter
is that you have yet to provide a single scrap of evidence that any "universal
brain" exists. You're just making assertions, and pretty darned silly ones
at
that.
JB> Brains are like wire-frame objects immersed in a "pool
JB> of nonlocality." Something moves in brain; something moves in the
JB> nonlocality
John, it's already been pointed out to you that you can't use nonlocality
to
convey information. You find a way to do that, then we'll talk again.
As I keep reminding you, your mechanism does not appear to be able to do
the job
you claim for it. Moreover, there's no evidence that your "universal brain"
exists. You're even giving us reason to doubt your local brain.
HP>> You make the claim that the universe "HAS TO BE 'intelligent'".
HP>> Sorry, don't believe you. No reason to do so. Because you are only
JB> Reason to believe comes from rational understanding of hardware-
JB> experimentable scientific information.
We understand the experiments, John. That's how we know they don't point
to
universal brains, as you assert. Now go scrape up some evidence to back
up your
claim.
HP>> making baseless assertions, not providing any evidence to back up
HP>> your claim. Just like the other fundies.
JB> "Other fundies?" (*chuckle*) You must be new.
ROFL!
JB> I am not a fundie.
Of course you are, John. A metafundy. A psychic snake oil salesman who
is also
his own best customer.
JB> The assertion is not "baseless,"
Of course it is, John. You've not a scrap of evidence to back it up, hence
no
base. Ergo, baseless. This is very simple stuff, John.
HP>> "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly
HP>> one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to
HP>> suit facts."
JB> Quite.
Quite. You are a prime example of what the gentlemen was talking about.
:-)
___
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:33
EID:7282 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a870
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
JF>>> Why don't we just call it even...
HP>> Because it would be lying?
RS> Doesn't this strike you as someone who's just run out of
RS> bullets shouting loudly for the shootout to cease?
"No mas! No mas!"
___
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:37
EID:10a7 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a872
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
AS>> Nope, Hector mine. I'm talking about the anthropic coincidences,
AS>> altruism above and beyond societal and genetic necessity, and the
AS>> inexplicability of what the disciples did...without a diety to explain
AS>> it.
RH> You say that as tho it was true. Those are simply your claims,
RH> because you reject other equally possible positions.
To be precise, they are, in order:
1. Pseudo-scientific bullshit that ignores better answers, even if considered
"seriously."
2. An unevidenced claim.
3. A lie.
Oh, and this one applies to all of them:
4. Boring.
___
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:41
EID:e84e 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a874
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
DG>>> (They'll either glorify Him now by choice, or glorify Him later by
DG>>> force.
SQ> A loving religion at its finest.
Darryl gets it -- wonder why Al can't? :-)
HP>> + Origin: GaiaNet BBS * 310-724-8965 (1:102/735)
SQ> Out of Shreveport for good?
It'll be good, but not yet. Telneting. Notice I gave Judith "East Texas"
for a
location. :-)
___
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:45
EID:6071 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a876
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
PA>>> Actually, God should not be anyone's co-pilot.. He should
PA>>> actually be the pilot. We should let Him take over, and
PA>>> just enjoy the ride.
RS>> Ecstacy does a better job...
RS>> Rod "...but I'm not into drugs" Swift
KY> How do you know? Did you ever truly compare the two?
How could he? Drugs he could probably find, but it's your god, and you
can't
even produce him to be tried. :-)
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: exponential problem
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:49
EID:3293 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a878
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
KY> I say it is not up to us to reduce the population. If it is meant to
be,
KY> it will happen through the course of nature..
Can you figure out why that's dumb, Kenny? Here's some help:
"I say it is not up to us to reduce crime. If it is meant to be, it will
happen
through the course of nature."
"I say it is not up to us to educate our young. If it is meant to be, it
will
happen through the course of nature."
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Heat [1/2]
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:53
EID:d244 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a87a
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
AM> 1. Scientists think the universe started from a explosion of a singularity
AM> in an event known as the big bang. At the moment of this big bang time
AM> and the laws of physics came into existence. In our entire existence
no
AM> one knows of an uncaused event.
We know of one, it seems -- the big bang, Event One. Since it occured at
the
first instant of time, there was no time preceding it in which a cause may
have
acted. You have to be very careful trying to apply classical "common sense"
to
the extreme conditions of the universe, like near light speed, around black
holes, at the quantum level, or at the beginning of the universe. It doesn't
work very well.
AM> 2. There are at least 25 known constants in the universe necessary for
AM> life as we know it and some for any life at all. Moreover, there are
an
AM> infinite amount of permutations the universe could have taken to the
AM> exclusion of any one being around to ponder how we got here.
First, we have no idea how many "permutations" are possible. Second, if
you
wish to carry this metaphysical speculation to its logical conclusion, it's
called "anthropic selection" from ensemble universes, not the non-answer
"gods
musta dunnit!"
You're debunked.
___
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: humor the fundy fools
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:03:57
EID:c021 2243a860
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a87c
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
HP>>>> And how often do you have these dreams that you cannot
HP>>>> distinguish from reality, Al? :-)
AS>>> All the time, Hec...
AS>>> While I'm having them.
RC>> And do you also, while you're having them, have faith in their reality
RC>> exactly the same as when you are awake?
RV> I hope you oiled those hinges on the trap door, this time.
You haven't noticed? Al just chews off the appendage that's caught. Lately
he's been heard flopping about mumbling something like "it's only a flesh
wound."
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Jim Goodman
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:04:01
EID:e622 2243a880
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a880
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
JG> If I were taking a somewhat opposing position I'd say
JG> the first point above about the other gods being pissed
JG> only holds if they actually exist.
That's precisely the point, Jim. The Wager presents a false dichotomy,
assuming
"either Yahweh exists or no gods exist." If we're giving in to free-wheeling
flights of fancy, as the Wager _is_, then we have to consider all the
"alternatives," including other gods, a misunderstanding of the nature of
Yahweh, etc. Add 'em all up and you see that someone who bets on Pascal's
Wager
is betting _against_, not with, the odds.
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: QG test
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:04:05
EID:64f0 2243a880
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a882
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
RH> John, yesterday was the first lottery drawing in February. I bought
two
RH> random number selection tickets.
RH> Guess what.?!
RH> I lost.
RH> The prize was $11,000,000.00
RH>
But you didn't really, truly believe! Clap your hands!
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: READING INCOMPREHENSI
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:04:09
EID:b6df 2243a880
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a884
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
KY> Tell ya what, just as a favor, I'll pray for you..
Do yourself a favor. Think for yourself.
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: Well, Willy? Huh??
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:04:13
EID:a22e 2243a880
MSGID: 1:102/735.0 2243a886
TID: DBSMail 2.10c
DR> If no one speaks up, Al... We are lost.
So explain why it is that every time one of you fundies speaks up, you lose?
:-)
___
* MR/2 2.26 NR *
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 15 Jan 97 01:36:38
EID:d141 222f0c80
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dc8906
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d4fb97
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 9 Jan 97, Gwenny The Pooh was discussing
"Warring Christanic Factions" with Dan Ceppa.
Hi Gwenny :)
GTP> I can send her her Xmas gifts.
I thought you hated everything to do with Christianity???
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Warring Christanic Factions", said Gwenny. Lock phasers on that
heffalump!
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam
|Date: 15 Jan 97 01:42:34
EID:b078 222f0d40
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dc8a6a
REPLY: 1:128/203.6@fidonet.org 32d51dbf
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 9 Jan 97, Gwenny The Pooh was discussing
"Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam" with J.J. Hitt.
Hi Gwenny :)
GTP> Spam, the meal for those who aren't man enough to eat haggis.
GTP> Guaranteed non-biodegradable so that ignorant white eyes can go on
GTP> polluting the planet.
Yeah. like us "white eyes" are the only ones. I bet more than a handful
of
"your lot" are doing just the same....
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam", said Gwenny, as he turned a mouse loose
in the maternity ward.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Brett Johnson
|Sub: Brett Johnson; jealous gods
|Date: 15 Jan 97 01:45:05
EID:7bb4 222f0da0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dc8b01
REPLY: 1:221/203 1bd361cd
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 8 Jan 97, Brett Johnson was discussing
"Brett Johnson; jealous gods" with Fredric Rice.
Hi Brett :)
BJ> MY relationship, the covenant that exists between God and myself is
an
BJ> exclussive one. The Scriptures allegorically compare it to a marriage.
I guess you're a Christian then?
BJ> Thus even IF I believed that there were "other gods", it wouldn't bare
BJ> on my relationship with THIS particular God.
Quickly forgetting "Thou shalt have no other gods but I".....
And it's "bear", not "bare", unless you meant "it wouldn't naked on my
relationship" of course, which is quite possible I guess....
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Brett Johnson; jealous gods," said Brett, as Satan pointed out the
small
print.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: All
|Sub: Missing Mail
|Date: 16 Jan 97 16:24:04
EID:de4d 22308300
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32de93ad
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
Hi,
It appears my mail has not been getting out, so the next 50, yes 50, sorry,
messages are reposts. If you have got these message already then I can only
apologize for my mistake, however, I'm sure I would've got replied from
at least some of the message I posted considering the temperament of this
echo.
Paul
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: This just in...
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:50:40
EID:eab3 22307e40
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2b0
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 28 Dec 96, Don Martin was discussing
"This just in..." with me.
Hi Don :)
ML>> Food for thought department.
ML>> Charles Manson is still exchanging gasses in a prison
ML>> cell in California.
ML>> Carl Sagan died today from pneumonia complications after a
ML>> two year bout with myelodysplasia.
ML>> Anyone care to tell me about a kind, just and loving God?
PD>> Not really, as I don't believe that God would think in quite the same
PD>> terms as you. You are judging CM on the acts of a few days, whereas
PD>> you're judging CS on his entire lifetime. Hardly as fair a question
as
PD>> it first seems is it?
DM> And precisely what achievements may we confidently expect from
DM> Manson between the present and his demise? Is he becoming another Bird
DM> Man even now on the verge of great ornithological discoveries? Or will
DM> he remain the same spooky little turd he has always been? If the latter
Well, you tell me as you seem to know it all. AFAIC, CM is a person. What
he has done is history. You seem to think that because of his history that
he cannot achieve anything good. What makes you think that CS is a better
person because he wrote about cosmology?
DM> is more likely, than his whole lifetime was summed up in the events
of
DM> those few days and the question is quite fair. However, I am willing
to
Not at all. As all people should be evaluated on the entirety of their existence,
not just little snapshots to make points over others, the question can never
be fair. It's not balanced.
DM> await developments: I believe he has access to a library, so quite a
DM> number of possibilities are open to him, even in confinement. Certainly
DM> the confinement of Stephen Hawking within his body is more strict than
DM> that of Manson in his cell, so great achievements are yet within his
DM> grasp. Thank you for pointing this out to us all--I was about to give
up
DM> hope on Chuck.
DM> Now will you plase hold your breath for all of us?
Yes, as I've come to realise when peoples lives are based on emotional rubbish
that most of their arguments deteriorate into personal abuse and sarcasm.
Just as yours has.
It seems to me that you have more in common with CM than CS. At least Carl
used to present good arguments without lowering himself to abuse. It's a
pity you can't follow his example.
Paul
... If you let cloudy water settle, it will become clear. If you let your
upset mind settle, your course will also become clear.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:50:49
EID:9438 22307e40
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2b9
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 24 Dec 96, George Mooth was discussing "Our Daily Bread" with All.
Hi George :)
GM> After the Apollo XV mission, Colonel James Irwin
GM> related some of the high points of his experience. He
GM> told of weightless bodies floating free in the space
GM> capsule, the rising crescent of the earth as seen from
GM> the moon, and the triumphal splashdown before a watching
GM> world.
Makes you wonder how Irwin got to goto the moon when he couldn't even realise
that the earth does not rise when seen from the moon. It is constantly on
view as the moon always presents the same face to us.
Paul
... Joy comes not through possession or ownership but through a wise and
loving heart.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: All
|Sub:
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:50:57
EID:5a31 22307e40
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2c1
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
Hi :)
TBH, I am quite shocked at how busy this echo is. It's gonna take me some
time getting used to 250 messages a day in one echo!
I'll probably die trying (or paying for it)....
Paul
... Health is the greatest gift, contentment the greatest wealth,
faithfulness the best relationship.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: atheistic bombast
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:51:06
EID:ff07 22307e60
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2ca
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 1 Jan 97, Martin Goldberg was discussing "atheistic bombast" with Nate
Cookson.
Hi Martin :)
NC>> Why must we "prove" God exists? There are many things in
NC>> that "exist" but we don't have the expertise yet to
NC>> Many years ago, no one could prove that a atom existed...
NC>> today we know they do, as will the future unfold many
NC>> "exist" today... but we aren't aware of them,,, It
NC>> it doesn't exist...
MG> The evidence ofr unseen things was always there. We just did not know
MG> how to look for them.
Quantum Mechanics is pondering this question also. Because of the wave/particle
duality that is observed, we cannot really talk in terms of particles only.
Scientists do not know if these particles exist outside of experimental
conditions.
MG> Now, with technology advanced to a state where we can look at galaxies
MG> millions of light years away, we have the ability to look for the
MG> evidence of god. When we did, we found the Big Bang and evolution
MG> isntead. These are things that left evidence for us to find. Your
god
MG> did not.
Evolution only goes against creationist religions, and the same for the
Big Bang.
MG> The desits of this word can still fall back on one little hope...that
MG> is that we may find god tomorrow. We won't. Because we have stopped
MG> looking. The evidence to look for is nonexistant.
I think you could be entirely right. Let me explain what I mean.
Above you state that science found the Big Bang. Where did that come from?
If you say it came from a primal atom, again I can ask the question; where
did it come from? Using physical reality as your only way of seeing the
universe will infinitely leave you with the question; where did that come
from? DYSWIM?
In order for us to understand the physical origin of the universe we must
understand a different level of existence that is not physical, and from
our physical POV could be seen as non-existent.
Of course, this in no way proves that God exists physically but could be
a reason for why God cannot be found physically.
Also,it does open the door to the logical possibility of different dimensions
or levels of existence.
Now my question: do you believe in anything other than physical reality?
If your answer is no, then where did the universe come from?
BTW, are you an atheist or an anti-theist?
Paul
... Everything that has a beginning has an ending. Make your peace with
that and all will be well.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Speaking of Mormons
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:51:14
EID:78ad 22307e60
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2d2
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 2 Jan 97, J.J. Hitt was discussing
"Speaking of Mormons" with Joe Shedlock.
Hi J.J. :)
JS>> Perry claims to have repented for her crime and her sin. I guess my
JS>> question is this: What, if anything, is there about Mormonism and
JS>> Mormon beliefs and practices that would be more "welcoming" or
JS>> attractive to someone who had committed murder (or some other serious
JS>> crime) than Anglicanism or any other Christian sect would be? Not
JS>> that any of these Mormons knew that she was a murderess. But why
JS>> would a murderess be attracted to Mormonism?
JJH> Damned good question and one I don't have a ready answer for.
JJH> As far as I know, there isn't anything to make it attractive:
JJH> forgiveness isn't one of the Mormon's strong points.
In that case couldn't it be feasible that she is looking for punishment?
ie. she feels guilty for something already and the only way she could express
this was through murder. I'm no psychologist but it would seem logical IMO.
Paul
... In the end these things matter most: How well did you love? How fully
did you live? How deeply did you learn to let go?
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Apologies to Regulars
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:51:22
EID:ac96 22307e60
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2da
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 1 Jan 97, Don Martin was discussing
"Apologies to Regulars" with Nate Cookson.
Hi Don :)
DM> Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
DM> evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
DM> tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic particles
DM> or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the existence of
DM> enormous gravitational forces only explicable by the presence of
DM> a black hole.
DM> So show us this stratum. That would be evidence.
Only that there was a flood, and that it happens to be recorded in a book
called The Bible. Funnily enough though, it isn't only recorded in Christian
religion and has been noted in religions not related to Christianity at
all. (The name of one escapes me at the moment but that is not the issue
anyway)
You can look for evidence of the flood if you wish. It won't prove anything
except there was a flood.
A good place to look might be under the sea. The sea-level is known to have
changed drastically many times over the eons of time, and ice-ages would
most definitely have an effect on sea-levels.
It has been shown scientifically that the Mediterranean Sea was once not
a sea for instance. It dried up and they have found "evaporites" (deposits
only found where sea's, lakes etc have dried up) under the sea at depths
of +5000 ft. I'll look this up and give you more info if you wish.
I feel with Christianity that their dating of the time of the flood is extremely
inaccurate and could be 10,000+ years out if it was caused by an ice-age
ending.
Paul
... Just as driving on the correct side of the road gives us the freedom
to
go anywhere, accepting the natural law of constant change is our route
to freedom.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: fundy
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:51:31
EID:b70a 22307e60
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2e3
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 28 Dec 96, Rod Swift was discussing
"fundy" with Mark English.
Hi Rod :)
ME>> Fundamentalists of any kind are basically narrow-minded individuals
who
ME>> won't accept any deviation from what they believe to be correct.
RS> And you claim to not be one?
RS> Ok. Let's see how open-minded you are. Science tells us that we don't
RS> know the origins of sexuality, but it is undeniable that for virtually
RS> all people -- heterosexual, homosexual, or anywhere in between on the
RS> spectrum of sexuality -- their sexuality is innate (i.e. unchosen) and
RS> immutable (i.e. non-changeable).
I'm not disputing you on this as I don't have any evidence to the contrary
but would you mind divulging your sources for this information and how said
information was obtained?
As to your argument, I feel it is flawed because you could be accused of
showing narrow-mindedness by restricting your POV to a scientific one.
Paul
... Words have the power to destroy or heal. When words are both true and
kind, they can change our world.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: the promise keepers
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:51:39
EID:4d94 22307e60
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2eb
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 29 Dec 96, Rod Swift was discussing
"the promise keepers" with Jim Staal.
Hi Rod :)
RS> If these people were doing it out of the goodness of their heart, they'd
RS> not be making tens of millions of dollars of profit a year
RS> -- but would be offering ministry on a cost-recovery-basis only...
RS> ... or even for free!
Now apply that argument to modern business practices and you have the sick
world we live in today.
Doesn't make "us" any better.
Paul
... Our sorrows and wounds are healed only when we touch them with
compassion.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:51:47
EID:2d40 22307e60
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2f3
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 29 Dec 96, Rod Swift was discussing
"Our Daily Bread" with George Mooth.
Hi Rod :)
GM>> HE IS HERE!
RS> Yet we can't see him? Or did he finally come? I hope someone's going
RS> to clean up the mess.
Glad to see you're one of those adult types. ;)
Paul
... Just as driving on the correct side of the road gives us the freedom
to
go anywhere, accepting the natural law of constant change is our route
to freedom.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: satanism
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:51:55
EID:5d24 22307e60
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea2fb
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 30 Dec 96, Rod Swift was discussing
"satanism" with Ken Wiens.
RS> Why would a creator create such a flawed creation that it can *refuse*
RS> to acklowedge the Creator? Why didn't he just make them mindless
RS> automatons -- a much better creative design for a functioning created
RS> item.
Not if you want them to have free-will though. In order for there to be
true free-will, questioning of the creator must be allowed.
Paul
... To awaken, sit calmly, letting each breath clear your mind and open
your heart.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: A Serious Question
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:52:04
EID:7c98 22307e80
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea304
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 30 Dec 96, Rod Swift was discussing
"A Serious Question" with Katherine Wintersnight.
Hi Rod :)
RS> Katherine, I know how you feel. The medical system has failed in the
RS> United States. For a number of reasons, one being no cost control.
The
RS> medical profession has a virtual oligopoly knowing they have a captive
RS> market place -- the sick.
And they're not even Christian?
Paul
... Joy and openess come from our own contented heart.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:52:12
EID:2d40 22307e80
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea30c
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 1 Jan 97, Rod Swift was discussing
"Our Daily Bread" with George Mooth.
Hi Rod :)
GM>> WHEN GOD CORRECTS US
RS> God uses correction fluid? Praise 1-1-1-Trichloroethane!
I'd rather not praise the "chloro" bit if you don't mind. I like my ozone
layer where it is, in the sky. ;)
Paul
... "What's karma?"
"I can't remember, but it'll come back to me...."
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Who would you rather have over for dinner?
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:52:21
EID:b874 22307e80
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea315
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 2 Jan 97, Marty Leipzig was discussing "Who would you rather have over
for dinner?" with me.
Hi Marty :)
ML>> Food for thought department.
ML>> Charles Manson is still exchanging gasses in a prison
ML>> cell in California.
ML>> Carl Sagan died today from pneumonia complications after a
ML>> two year bout with myelodysplasia.
ML>> Anyone care to tell me about a kind, just and loving God?
PD>> Not really, as I don't believe that God would think in quite the same
PD>> terms as you.
ML> Indeed. Supernatural illusory superfriends don't think, or do
ML> anything else, for that matter.
If they are indeed illusory. I take it that you think that the physical
aspect of the universe is all there is? If this is so, then where did it
come from? You'll never be able to do answer this question by restricting
yourself to purely physical matter/anti-matter, because the question, where
did it come from can always be asked. True or not true?
This logically implies that in order to ascertain where the universe came
from we must think in non-physical terms ie. alternate realities.
This, of course, does not mean that God exists, but it could explain why
there is no physical evidence of one. And, again, it would be quite right
to say God doesn't exist (physically).
As to the nature of God, who knows? I just don't think you putting down
the Christian interpretation of God disproves anything other than Christianity's
interpretation.
Me, I couldn't care one way or the other.
PD>> You are judging CM on the acts of a few days, whereas you're judging
CS
PD>> on his entire lifetime. Hardly as fair a question as it first seems
is
PD>> it?
ML> Certainly it is. Carl Sagan never killed another human, was
ML> quite sane and made an enormous positive impact on society.
ML> Chuckie M. strikes out on all three counts.
Firstly, how do you know Carl Sagan hasn't killed anyone? Secondly, define
sanity. Thirdly, to say Manson has had no effect on society is trite.
PD>> As to what you actually said. Unfortunately, the illnesses are there
PD>> for all to suffer from, not just criminals or those perceived to
PD>> "deserve it".
ML> Just another loving aspect of your omnibenovelent God.
It's quite strange how you have immediately assumed that I must be a believer
in God because I question your way of weighing peoples lives against each
other. Is there any particular reason for this?
ML> Keep him, he's yours; you deserve him.
It's your assumption that it is mine, or indeed that I think God exists.
You keep it.
BTW, are you an Atheist or an Anti-Theist?
Paul
... Like the mother of the world, touch each being as your beloved child.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Grand Canyon Pissing Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:52:29
EID:1a46 22307e80
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea31d
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 2 Jan 97, Fredric Rice was discussing
"Grand Canyon Pissing Contest" with Dan Ceppa.
Hi Frederic :)
JM>> I've been to the Grand Canyon, Laurie... I've even taken a leak off
the
JM>> edge and watched it fly a mile down.
dc>> Yes, but is it in your free will to be able to piss one mile up?
FR> Einstein already showed us that there's really no difference and that
FR> whether John pissed down into the canyon or whether piss rushed up the
FR> canyon into John is simply a matter of reference point.
Or your sense of humour. ;)
Paul
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Reading incomprehension
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:52:37
EID:31cf 22307e80
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea325
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 2 Jan 97, Fredric Rice was discussing
"Reading incomprehension" with Don Martin.
Hi Frederic :)
FR> Even more: The guy failed to make any comment about how such a "link"
FR> exists. No causual link was provided. As a result he might as well
FR> claim that wearing eye glasses causes near-sightedness or that having
FR> breasts causes brest cancer.
Ironically, having eyes and breasts are prerequisites for the two conditions.
;)
Paul
... At the bottom of things, most people want to be understood and
appreciated.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Coward!
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:52:45
EID:e432 22307e80
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea32d
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 3 Jan 97, Fredric Rice was discussing
"Coward!" with Dave Hamilton.
Hi Frederic :)
RS>> And I bet even the OED definition STILL means without a
RS>> belief in a Deity.
dh>> "atheism /n. the theory or belief that God does not exist."
FR> That definition is pretty inaccurate. I have an encyclopedia that
FR> offers deliberately inaccurate definitions of word usages for a number
FR> of atheist-oriented terms yet its definition for "atheism" doesn't get
FR> as wrong as this one.
Agreed. I was given a mathematical definition of Atheism recently that made
things crystal clear.
+1 Theism
0 Atheism
-1 Anti-Theism
ie. Atheism is not belief and not non-belief in God(s).
To be an Atheist you require nothing. To be either of the others requires
religion.
Paul
... As you walk and eat and travel, be where you are. Otherwise you will
miss most of your life.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:52:54
EID:64b6 22307e80
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea336
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 31 Dec 96, Kelsey Bjarnason was discussing "Pray Contest" with Carl Pollock.
Hi Kelsey :)
KB> RS@> Why does your Deity want children to starve or burn to death?
CP>> "And we know that ALL things work togeather for the good of those who
CP>> love him, who have been called accrding to his purpose." Romans 8:28,
KB> For the good of those who love him... and the rest can simply starve
KB> and suffer? Nice.
This question always intrigues me with Christians and one they always seem
to fall for and miss the simple answer: God doesn't let children starve
or burn to death. Humans do. Who's got the food? Who's got the weapons?
Paul
... There is no fire greater than greed and hatred.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Kelsey Bjarnason
|Sub: Mutations Harmful (b)1
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:53:02
EID:730b 22307ea0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea33e
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 1 Jan 97, Kelsey Bjarnason was discussing "Mutations Harmful (b)1" with
Al Schroeder.
Hi Kelsey :)
AS>> Laurie. It's one thing to talk about individual variation within a
AS>> species. But if you think the most intelligent beings on the planet
AS>> don't have the highest brain-to-body ratios, than think again.
KB> Hmm? I was under the impression that there were, indeed, larger
KB> brain-to-body ratios, and that where "intelligence" came in (eg
KB> chimps, humans, dolphins, etc) was when the brain-to-body ratio
KB> was close to a certain average - too far either way led to
KB> lessened intelligence.
KB> This is not correct?
ISTR hearing that it was brain to brain-stem size.
Paul
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Sorrowful Jones
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:53:11
EID:8d31 22307ea0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea347
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 4 Jan 97, Steve Quarrella was discussing "Sorrowful Jones" with Fredric
Rice.
Hi Steve :)
sq>>> He is very much like his Creationist brethren. Witness his citation
sq>>> for the source of his deity's ethics.
FR>> I didn't see any such answer. What _did_ he say? Or was it the
FR>> messages where he demanded that his gods always had them?
SQ> Pretty much. It seems that -everything- HAS to have a creator, EXCEPT
SQ> for deities.
I'll ask you this question and see what you think...
If we try to discern the origin of the universe by studying purely physical
manifestations then aren't we forever locked into the loop of being able
to ask where it came from? ie. no matter if we see the world as made of
quarks or God then we can still ask the question, where did it come from?
(This does not invalidate either question BTW)
This indicates to me that if we wish to be able to discern the origin of
the universe then we must consider the possibility of alternate /realities/
or forms of existence that are not detectable like physical matter, because
logic dictates that there must be a point of origin.
Either my theory is incorrect or our logic is. Take your pick. :)
Let me add, this in no way suggests that God exists, but it does open the
logical possibility that there may be alternate realities that cannot be
realised by physical means.
Maybe it also explains why there is no (physical) evidence for God(s) if
they do exist in some form.
BTW, are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Sorrowful Jones", said Steve, as the rip cord came away in his hand
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Christians v Guns [2]
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:53:19
EID:1f36 22307ea0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea34f
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 4 Jan 97, Marilyn Burge was discussing "Christians v Guns
[2]" with Al Schroeder.
Hi Marilyn :)
MB> In fact, you don't even need the lathe; the "hoods" in the 60's made
MB> zipguns in tenements, with nothing more than the will to do so.
Those were the days. Willing things into existence.... ;)
Paul
... "Christians v Guns [2]", said Marilyn, as the Cardassians ripped off
her
head and legs.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: No, really.
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:53:27
EID:b54f 22307ea0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea357
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 3 Jan 97, Glen Todd was discussing
"No, really." with Al Schroeder.
Hi Glen :)
AS>> In Christian circles, it is not recommended to go to worship with
AS>> the
AS>> idea of picking up the opposite sex, but such happens, nevertheless,
AS>> in
AS>> meetings in Sunday School, fellowship meals, etc. And there's nothing
AS>> wrong with that. I doubt if pagan worship is THAT different.
GT> Except that Pagans don't go to circle to pick up altar boys.
And of course, Pagans wouldn't dream of doing such things....
Paul
... "No, really.", said Glen, as the pin fell out the grenade
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:53:36
EID:28fb 22307ea0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea360
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 2 Jan 97, Andrew Masten was discussing "Evidence" with Martin Goldberg.
Hi Andrew :)
AM>> I disagree with your assertion that there is no evidence for a
AM>> creator.
MG>> And there you stop. Where is this evidence.
AM> The primary evidence for a creator is the universe. Just as a
AM> house is
AM> evidence of a house builder, this universe is evidence of a
AM> universe
AM> builder. Many scientists agree that prior to the big bang, time
AM> and the
AM> laws of physics didn't exist. Since we know of no events that are
AM> uncaused, its rational that the universe was a caused event.
AM> Matter,
AM> time, and the laws of physics were caused events. The causer or
AM> creator of such events must be greater than the events caused.
This is the logical conclusion that I come to as well. Looking at the universe
in purely physical terms will create an inescapable loop of searching for
the cause of that physical matter. We will forever be able to ask, where
did it come from, using only physical terms.
This includes time as well. We perceive time and appear to be in a universe
that passes through time with us, but as scientists have agreed that time
is a function of this universe (spacetime) then it is inconceivable (to
us) to understand a reality where time is not an issue.
AM> Secondly, there is the fine tuning of the universe, which allowed
AM> people like you and I to ponder where we came from.
AM> Evidence for fine tuning of universe.
I hadn't thought of these things as fine tuning myself, but now you come
to mention that is how it could be viewed, yes.
AM> Of course there are objections to this interpretation of evidence.
AM> But that doesn't invalidate the evidence itself.
Agreed, although I would add, that what we think of as evidence may not
be and in that case is there any evidence? DYSWIM? Are we deciding what
the evidence is itself?
Paul
... "Evidence", said Andrew, as the Brigadier destroyed another alien race.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Heathens
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:53:45
EID:7902 22307ea0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea369
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 4 Jan 97, Dan Ceppa was discussing
"Heathens" with Nate Cookson.
Hi Dan :)
NC>> I have found that so called "evidence" has always been
NC>> determined by one's out look on life.... You choose to deny the
NC>> existence of God, therefore you "Look" for evidence to back up
NC>> your presuppositions.
DC> You got that backwards, Nate. You need your god to exist and you
DC> ingore the evidence that shows that your god is nowhere to be found.
So, you're saying that no evidence, is evidence? I'm glad you're not my
lawyer....
Paul
... "Heathens", said Dan, as he found Dan in his honey pot.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: reading incomprehensi
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:53:53
EID:6151 22307ea0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea371
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 5 Jan 97, Dan Ceppa was discussing
"reading incomprehensi" with Nate Cookson.
Hi Dan :)
NC>> Someone by the name of "Dan" who only knows four letter words and
NC>> loves to cuss a lot... ((Boy this guy can REALLY be taken
DC> That's _God Dan_ to you, puny fundy.
Is this revealing more about you than you think Dan?
Paul
... "reading incomprehensi", said the Moderator to Dan, &$&^DanO CARRIER
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: My Wife ? Evidence of
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:54:01
EID:6320 22307ec0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea379
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 4 Jan 97, Ronald Vass was discussing
"My Wife ? Evidence of" with Al Schroeder.
Hi Ronald :)
RV> To do that, you would have to show that a soul doesn't get reincarnate
RV> again
What strange logic you have. You ask someone to prove that something does
not exist and you can't even prove that it does. That's hardly a fair task
is it? How about you provide some evidence that re-incarnation is a fact
first?
Paul
... "My Wife ? Evidence of", said Ronald, as he testified O.J. was with
him
all night.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Joe Shedlock
|Sub: Believer
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:54:10
EID:facf 22307ec0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea382
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 3 Jan 97, Joe Shedlock was discussing
"Believer" with Mark English.
Hi Joe :)
ME>> There's a big difference between not wanting to have kids and not
being
ME>> able to. You choose not to have children. Homosexuals can't have
ME>> children, no matter what hole they put it in.
JS> Melissa Etheridge and her lover seem to be contradicting your
JS> assertion.
Is Melissa Etheridge a man then? It's quite obvious what is being implied
by
the above statement but you choose to be obtuse just the same, why?
Do you have a problem agreeing with people when they say that men can't
become pregnant (without Hollywood)?
If you do then I suggest you read a biology book. Science has proved it
(not
that it was ever in doubt anywhere else in the world).
Paul
... "Believer", said Joe, as the cable system messed with his channels.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:54:18
EID:95de 22307ec0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea38a
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 4 Jan 97, Gwenny the Pooh was discussing
"Cheese Whiz" with Nate Cookson.
Hi Gwenny :)
GtP> I've told you before, I would have supported my own abortion. I know
GtP> others who feel the same way. Unfortunately, we don't have the
GtP> opportunity to check with the fetuses. And, besides, it's not the
GtP> fetuses choice. It is the mother's choice.
Tell you what, why don't you give birth and then kill the child? Is it any
different? Why?
BTW, I'm not pro-life but I do think that some of the reasons women have
abortions is extremely suspect. Being a man makes it harder to have a
discussion about this kind of thing but I'm sure you won't mind if some
of
us have a POV and question you about yours?
Paul
... "Cheese Whiz", said Gwenny, as Ted Kennedy stuck his tongue in his ear.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: fundy
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:54:26
EID:b7bb 22307ec0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea392
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 4 Jan 97, Gwenny the Pooh was discussing
"fundy" with Rod Swift.
Hi Gwenny :)
GtP> The ironic thing about killing of homosexuals was the reason. . .it
GtP> was to keep it from being passed onto offspring. But if they had let
GtP> the homosexual alone, there would never have been any offspring.
This is like the argument that a child being brought up by two homo-sexuals
is bad for the child and could make them think that homo-sexuality is the
norm. It seems strange to me that people should think this when you consider
that the majority of homo-sexuals come from "normal" mother/father
backgrounds.
Paul
... "fundy", said Gwenny, as he deleted C:\WINDOWS.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:54:35
EID:9fbe 22307ec0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea39b
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 5 Jan 97, Shelby Sherman was discussing
"Evidence" with Andrew Masten.
Hi Shelby :)
AM>> The primary evidence for a creator is the universe. Just as a
AM>> house is
AM>> evidence of a house builder, this universe is evidence of a
AM>> universe
AM>> builder.
SS> Using this (Il)ogic, a small, rectangular piece of ice found near the
SS> South Pole is evidence of a refrigerator with an ice-maker nearby,
SS> right?
So what is your reason for the existence of the universe and why?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Evidence", said Shelby as the pin fell out of the grenade.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: WiCCA
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:54:43
EID:ddd3 22307ec0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3a3
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 5 Jan 97, Gwenny the Pooh was discussing
"WiCCA" with Martin Goldberg.
Hi Gwenny :)
GtP> I noticed. Why don't sysops put new users on HOLD for a week or so
GtP> and check to see if they have the brain to be allowed to post at all.
GtP> Hey, I may ask Wild if he can design something like that.
So you're not into freedom of speech then?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "WiCCA", said Gwenny as Martin Goldberg turned out to be a changeling.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:54:51
EID:a4d0 22307ec0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3ab
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 5 Jan 97, Damien Wellman was discussing
"Pray Contest" with Gwenny The Pooh.
Hi Damian :)
CP>> The God which BILLIONS around the world love and trust.
GTP>> Ah. . .Buddha. I don't Christians have even made it to the billion
GTP>> mark yet.
DW> Well, technically speaking, Buddha isn't a god (he never claimed to
DW> be,
DW> IIRC). Not that that stops lots of people from worshipping him as one
DW> anyhow.
When Buddha was asked if he was a God or a man he replied "I am awake".
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Groovy," said Damien, as he picked Liberty Caps one autumn morning.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:54:59
EID:d731 22307ec0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3b3
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 6 Jan 97, Jonathan Fingas was discussing
"Hypocritical people" with All.
Hi Jonathan :)
JF> I'm a proud (relatively speaking) Lutheran who goes to church every
Can you hear that sound? It's the flood gates opening......
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Hypocritical people", said Jonathan, as his dick got stuck in the
hoover.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Plastic Surgery
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:55:10
EID:0db4 22307ee0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3be
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 6 Jan 97, Doug Lee was discussing
"Plastic Surgery" with All.
Hi Doug :)
DL> I just saw a comercial on TV where they were advertising nose jobs and
DL> breast enhancments for, get this, " No money down. Pay no interest
DL> for.."
DL> I missed for how long.
What do they do if you don't make the payments? Do they come round and
disfigure you or something? ;)
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... Bh, "Plastic Surgery", said Doug, and twitted the moderator.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:55:18
EID:b672 22307ee0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3c6
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 6 Jan 97, Judith Bandsma was discussing
"Pray Contest" with me.
Hi Judith :)
PD>> The results were that in sample one, the resulting plants were bigger
PD>> and stronger than the control group, and in sample two they were
PD>> smaller and weaker than the control group.
JB> Did you ever think that the plants being prayed for, because they were
JB> the focus of attention, were also better cared for? Praying for them
JB> would also result in the stimulus of remembering to feed and water
JB> them.
Yes, that's entirely feasible but was probably one of the reasons the plants
were fed mechanically.
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Pray Contest", said Judith, as Bill CLinton came out of the closet.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: uk/usa 6/10
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:55:27
EID:0e5e 22307ee0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3cf
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 8 Jan 97, Judith Bandsma was discussing
"uk/usa 6/10" with All.
Hi Judith :)
JB> 109) The BBC. Or the British Broadcasting Corporation. The BBC
JB> consists of five radio channels (six if you include the World Service)
JB> & two terrestrial TV channels -BBC1 and BBC2. They are funded by the
JB> TV
JB> licence. This is something that you have to buy EVERY year that costs
JB> as much as a small black and white portable telly (cf) irrespective
of
JB> whether you watch BBC TV programmes or not. By just having a working
JB> television set in your house you have to buy a licence. I can't
JB> imagine
JB> this being a popular idea with the American public! Also, public
It's not popular with a hell of a lot of us Brits neither I can assure you.
Non-payment of this license is one of the most common "crimes" in the
courts. I call it a bloody liberty myself.
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "uk/usa 6/10", said Judith, as the moderator Orbed him for being
off-topic.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: uk/usa 10/10
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:55:35
EID:6e5c 22307ee0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3d7
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 8 Jan 97, Judith Bandsma was discussing
"uk/usa 10/10" with All.
Hi Judith :)
JB> 176) Mash. Bangers and mash is a great British meal. Mash is mashed
JB> potato.
Oh yea. All of us brits just love bangers and mash. Even us vegetarian
ones....
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "uk/usa 10/10", said Judith, when the red dot appeared on his chest.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Scientific theories.
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:55:44
EID:0c3b 22307ee0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3e0
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 7 Jan 97, Marilyn Burge was discussing
"Scientific theories." with Rick Mcfarlane.
Hi Marilyn :)
MB> If The Flood really happened, we'd have fossils of EVERYTHING,
MB> including humans in one strata. That WOULD be an interesting
MB> find, and Laurie could retire in luxury after showing it to
MB> the press, I'm sure.
It's possible but ultimately it can only be an assumption on your part that
there would be fossils of everything. Can you back up your claim with some
science please, specifically, how a flood would fossilize anything?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Scientific theories.", said Marilyn lying... Yes, I'll respect you
in
the morning.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Canadian Politics
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:55:52
EID:209f 22307ee0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3e8
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 6 Jan 97, Jan deBoer was discussing
"Canadian Politics" with Judith Bandsma.
Hi Jan :)
ML>> ... Although, any language where "Ook" is a real word is to be
JB>> Ik ook.
Jd> Eh?
It's Dutch. Translates as: I also.
Isn't "deBoer" a Dutch rooted name?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Canadian Politics", said Jan, as the EPA closed the honey factory.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:56:00
EID:f1c5 22307f00
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3f0
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 6 Jan 97, Jan deBoer was discussing
"Pray Contest" with me.
Hi Jan :)
PD>> Of course, this still doesn't prove the existence of God but it
PD>> could show that there is actually something in praying anyway.
Jd> There is no need for a prayer test.
Jd> Every occupied hospital bed is evidence that prayer doesn't work.
Jd> Every patient in a dental chair is evidence that prayer doesn't work.
Jd> Every death in a plane crash is evidence that prayer doesn't work.
Jd> Every residential mortgage foreclosure is evidence that prayer doesn't
Jd> work.
Jd> Every hospitalization of mother Theresa is evidence that prayer does
Jd> not
Jd> work.
Jd> Every time the Pope undergoes surgery instead of visiting Lourdes is
Jd> more evidence that prayer does not work.
Jd> Every insurance policy ever issued is evidence that prayer does not
Jd> work.
Jd> Every insurance policy ever issued on church property is proof that
Jd> prayer does not work.
In order for you to be correct we must make some assumptions...
1) No-one was praying for the events you describe to happen.
2) Someone was praying that the events you describe didn't happen.
3) That one person can influence anything of such a size or inanimate
matter, where in the tests there were groups of people involved not
just individuals, in trying to influence a small (relatively simple)
living organism.
4) That the results of the seed tests are invalidated by your assertions.
What you state may be precisely true for each and every circumstance you
describe above, but maybe only for that actual event itself. What have you
got to say about the results of the experiment itself?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "JOZXYQK!" said Jan as he trapped his sexual organs in a book.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Carl Pollock
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:56:09
EID:80ef 22307f00
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea3f9
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 8 Jan 97, Carl Pollock was discussing
"Pray Contest" with KELSEY BJARNASON.
Hi Carl :)
CP>> We may not know WHY it happens, how ever it MUST be for some greater
CP>> good or it would not happen.
CP> KB@> Why? because some old book says so?
CP> This "old book" has survived for literly thousands of years. This "old
CP> book" has
CP> been the hope and insperation for BILLIONS of men, women and children
CP> accross
CP> the ages. How can this "old book" have such an impact on THOUSANDS of
CP> lives
CP> through THOUSANDS of years and still not be true?
It's quite interesting to note that billions of men women and children have
drawn inspiration from somewhere else. If your book is so close to the facts
as to be undeniable then how is it possible that people have denied it?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Pray Contest", said Carl, as he used up the last of his dodge pool.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Beating hearts
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:56:17
EID:5030 22307f00
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea401
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 8 Jan 97, Fredric Rice was discussing
"Beating hearts" with Nate Cookson.
Hi Frederic :)
NC>> ""Abortion stops a beating Heart""
FR> Religion has stopped more beating hearts than abortion, Nate.
FR> And your death cult tops the list. Islam, Buddhism, and Judism are
FR> also on the list.
Buddhism? Can you elucidate on what you're talking abut please?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Beating hearts", said Fredric, and hit his reset switch.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: 2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:56:26
EID:8054 22307f00
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea40a
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 6 Jan 97, Roger Hunter was discussing
"2 CORINTHIANS 9:13" with Gwenny The Pooh.
Hi Roger :)
RH> ... Belief without evidence is no more than self delusion. ___ Blue
RH> Wave/QWK v2.12
RH> --- FLAME v1.1
RH> * Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
Belief with evidence is no longer belief.
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "2 CORINTHIANS 9:13", said Roger, and deleted the entire message base
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Naked Pagan Rituals
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:56:34
EID:bad5 22307f00
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea412
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 8 Jan 97, Fredric Rice was discussing
"Naked Pagan Rituals" with Gwenny the Pooh.
Hi Frederic :)
FR> Cool! I like having tight balls. You can't imagine what it's like
to
FR> go through life with a slinkey always dangleing down your left leg.
I've never been near your balls. ;)
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Naked Pagan Rituals", said Fredric, as he directed traffic onto the
dead-end street.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: 2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:56:42
EID:7d0e 22307f00
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea41a
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 9 Jan 97, David Worrell was discussing "2 CORINTHIANS 9:13" with Gwenny
the Pooh.
Hi David :)
GP>> Now, I know I am empathic, but I've never seen that as a 'mystical'
GP>> thing. The more I look at it, the more I am inclined to believe it
is
GP>> merely hypersensitivity to body language and smell. I think I "smell"
GP>> a person getting angry or sad, not that I mystically "sense" it.
DW> Have you any more evidence to support your belief than do those who
DW> claim it is some "mystical" thing?
DW> If not, you're just as full of shit as they are.
There is a whole body of evidence to support the claim that the body/mind
picks up a lot more information than we consciously acknowledge. People
give off signals of all kinds to indicate their mood. Smells, facial expressions,
body language are all well documented.
However, there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that empathy
is anything other than part of our physical experience.
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "2 CORINTHIANS 9:13", said David, joining Rick Godbee in making excuses.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: cheese whiz
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:56:51
EID:4393 22307f00
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea423
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 9 Jan 97, Marilyn Burge was discussing "cheese whiz" with Gwenny the
Pooh.
Hi Marilyn :)
MB> I got it backwards. AGE is a function of CANCER INCIDENCE, if I'm not
MB> mistaken about the concept to begin with. That is why more people die
MB> of cancer today than did, say, a hundred years ago; people live long
MB> enough now to die of cancer instead of pneumonia or the other infections
MB> for which we had no cures.
That's a bit askew too actually. If people died earlier 100 years ago then
how can you define which of them would've died of cancer? You've got no-one
to compare your modern day statistics against.
Also, the statistics of the past are flawed due to advances in medicine
and things that are classed as cancers today may not have been classed as
such 100 years ago. A classic example would be tuberculosis being mistaken
as the cause of death/type of illness instead of lung cancer.
Age is a function of cancer coincidence?
I'm more inclined to think that cancer is increasing personally and due
mostly to the actions of mankind itself.
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "cheese whiz", said Marilyn as she held up Eddie's Discount Liquors.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Domino
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:56:59
EID:147e 22307f00
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea42b
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 9 Jan 97, Domino was discussing
"Black lipstick" with Fredric Rice.
Hi Domino :)
D> (And, actually, he comes from a white upper-middle-class family,
D> so noone can apply a stereotype.)
Wanna bet? I think upper-middle-class-spoiled-brat, is an apt stereotype.
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Black lipstick", said Domino, and promptly vanished.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Warring Christanic Factions
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:57:08
EID:67a7 22307f20
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea434
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 9 Jan 97, Gwenny The Pooh was discussing
"Warring Christanic Factions" with Dan Ceppa.
Hi Gwenny :)
GTP> I can send her her Xmas gifts.
I thought you hated everything to do with Christianity???
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Warring Christanic Factions", said Gwenny. Lock phasers on that
heffalump!
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Gwenny The Pooh
|Sub: Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:57:17
EID:366e 22307f20
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea43d
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 9 Jan 97, Gwenny The Pooh was discussing
"Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam" with J.J. Hitt.
Hi Gwenny :)
GTP> Spam, the meal for those who aren't man enough to eat haggis.
GTP> Guaranteed non-biodegradable so that ignorant white eyes can go on
GTP> polluting the planet.
Yeah. like us "white eyes" are the only ones. I bet more than a handful
of
"your lot" are doing just the same....
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam", said Gwenny, as he turned a mouse loose
in the maternity ward.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Brett Johnson
|Sub: Brett Johnson; jealous gods
|Date: 16 Jan 97 15:57:27
EID:495b 22307f20
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea447
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 8 Jan 97, Brett Johnson was discussing
"Brett Johnson; jealous gods" with Fredric Rice.
Hi Brett :)
BJ> MY relationship, the covenant that exists between God and myself is
an
BJ> exclussive one. The Scriptures allegorically compare it to a marriage.
I guess you're a Christian then?
BJ> Thus even IF I believed that there were "other gods", it wouldn't bare
BJ> on my relationship with THIS particular God.
Quickly forgetting "Thou shalt have no other gods but I".....
And it's "bear", not "bare", unless you meant "it wouldn't naked on my
relationship" of course, which is quite possible I guess....
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Brett Johnson; jealous gods," said Brett, as Satan pointed out the
small
print.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Gwenny the Pooh
|Sub: sucking up
|Date: 16 Jan 97 16:08:38
EID:9264 22308100
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32dea6c3
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 6 Jan 97, Gwenny the Pooh was discussing
"sucking up" with Glen Todd.
Hi Gwenny :)
GtP> I love your buddha belly, I do. .
Buddha has never been depicted with a belly.
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... ""sucking up"", said Gwenny, as he declared his horse a Senator.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Leonard Bernier
|Sub: PSALMS 110:1 / Mark 12:35-36
|Date: 16 Jan 97 16:22:18
EID:a52d 223082c0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deaa1a
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 10 Jan 97, Leonard Bernier was discussing "PSALMS 110:1 / Mark 12:35-36"
with All .
Hi Leonard :)
LB> PROPHECY: - The Messiah shall be called "LORD". The Lord [Father] says
LB> to my Lord [Jesus]: "Sit at my right hand, until I made thine enemies
a
LB> footstool for thy feet".
Is this the Christian concept of forgiveness?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "PSALMS 110:1 / Mark 12:35-36", said Leonard as he donned his ninja
uniform and killed All.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Apostasy
|Date: 16 Jan 97 16:38:28
EID:274a 223084c0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deade4
REPLY: 1:116/17.0 32d6c372
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 10 Jan 97, Al Schroeder was discussing "Apostasy" with Ronald Vass.
Hi Al :)
AS> In the words of distinguished theologian Karl Barth...
AS> (page 1) Jesus (page 2) loves
AS> (page 3) me (page 4) this
AS> (page 5) I (page 6) know,
AS> (page 7) because (page 8) The Bible
AS> (page 9) tells (page 10) me so.
AS> Communication; the Bible; think about it.
Yes, but if the Christian God is omnipotent then how comes he doesn't just
communicate directly to everyone simultaneously?
Also, if you read a book that said you were Winnie the Pooh.....
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Apostasy", said Al, as he directed traffic onto the dead-end street.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 16:42:22
EID:a877 22308540
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deaece
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32d6571a
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 10 Jan 97, Dan Ceppa was discussing
"Pray Contest" with Christian Hedemark.
Hi Dan :)
CH>> In the Lord's Prayer, we ask that "Thy will be done." We ask in
CH>> prayer, because we struggle with the battle between "self will" and
DC> Why do you pray, in that very same prayer, that your god, "..not lead
DC> [you] into temptation"?
DC> You aren't very sure about your god's alignment, are you.
Either that or your interpretation is too literal. It could also mean "Lead
us away from temptation."
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Pray Contest", said Dan, as his striped necktie woke and strangled
him
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
* Origin: By the coffee machine (2:250/366.22)
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Native Americans
|Date: 16 Jan 97 16:45:10
EID:d034 223085a0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deaf76
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d7070b
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 11 Jan 97, David Worrell was discussing "Native Americans" with Tiger
Eyes.
Hi David :)
TE>> I believe the Indians were the smarter of the two.
DW> Ahhh... I see. That's why we were able to take all their shit from
DW> them.
Quickly forgetting "we" had guns....
Quickly forgetting how our European virii topped many an Indian....
Quickly forgetting your nation is founded on Christian exploration.....
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Native Americans", said David as he saw his friends dressed in black
robes.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
* Origin: In space no-one can hear you brraaapppp!!!! (2:250/366.22)
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 16:47:11
EID:358b 223085e0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deafef
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32d70d0d
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 11 Jan 97, David Worrell was discussing "Pray Contest" with Domino.
Hi David :)
D>> Could the answer be.. Agnostic?
DW> Nope. Agnostics need to grow some balls and climb down off that fence.
DW> :)
Do you think that Christianity is a form of mind/thought control?
How does your statement differ?
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Pray Contest", said David, as he signed the pact.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
* Origin: How did the fool get his money in the first place? (2:250/366.22)
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 16 Jan 97 16:57:51
EID:5a53 22308720
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deb26f
REPLY: 1:207/212 3048396d
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 10 Jan 97, Karen Davis was discussing
"jesus needed..." with Jim Staal.
Hi Karen :)
KD>> Why did God hate me so much that he gave us a savior only you men could
KD>> relate to?
JS>> You couldn't relate to yourj father because he was a man? You can't
JS>> relate to your brother because he is a man? You can't relate to your
JS>> husband because he is a man? Jesus Christ is all things to everybody.
KD> No, I cannot completely relate to any of those individuals due to the
KD> gender differences. Yes, we can have areas where we connect, but it
is
KD> never complete.
A common problem but not insurmountable. If there is truth then it is regardless
of sex is it not? The truth does not come in masculine and feminine versions.
Which gender differences are you talking about specifically?
KD> The model for our creator should not exclude half of the human beings
KD> on earth.
Agreed.
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "jesus needed...", said Karen as the brakes went out!
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
* Origin: "Not tonight dear, I have a modem" (2:250/366.22)
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: coincidence one
|Date: 16 Jan 97 17:01:32
EID:6e83 22308820
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deb34c
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 f4accfe5
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 10 Jan 97, Marilyn Burge was discussing "coincidence one" with Al Schroeder.
Hi Marilyn :)
MB> You are assuning that. How do you know it's true? How do you know there
MB> hasn't been an infinite number of universes before this one, and an
MB> infinite number of universes that will exist after this one is sucked
MB> into a humongous black hole? You are making a very basic assumption
MB> without one shred of evidence.
You've not heard of the Laws of Thermodynamics then? The only way your statement
could be true is if there is an infinite amount of order at the start. Saying
the universe is infinite is not evidence that it is, just as saying God
exists is no evidence.
BTW, personally, I believe the universe is infinite. Don't ask me to explain
why though OK. ;)
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "coincidence one", said Marilyn, as Will Riker attempted to mate with
him.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
* Origin: Hey! Who uncorked my bottle of lunch? (2:250/366.22)
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Pray Contest
|Date: 16 Jan 97 17:06:25
EID:088e 223088c0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deb471
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0493ff3f
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 9 Jan 97, Fredric Rice was discussing
"Pray Contest" with Gwenny the Pooh.
Hi Frederic :)
FR> Buddhists have been involved in a great many inhuman slaughters in the
FR> past
I was talking to someone about this some time back and neither of us has
any knowledge of such events. This does not mean that that haven't happened
of course and I would greatly appreciate it if you could point me towards
your source so that I can see for myself. I'd be quite interested to know
some more Buddhist religious history and any force used by such to impose
their beliefs.
cheers
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "Oh Pray Contest," said Fredric, as his latest beta crashed.
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
* Origin: Fools rush in where fools have been before. (2:250/366.22)
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|From: Paul Davis
|To: Starfire
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 16 Jan 97 17:15:32
EID:b4cc 223089e0
MSGID: 2:250/366.22 32deb694
REPLY: 1:128/203.4@fidonet.org 32d659cb
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
On 10 Jan 97, Starfire was discussing
"J.J. needs to be Hitt" with J.J. Hitt.
Hi Starfire :)
JJH>> You mean those ignorant shits who never invented the wheel?
JJH>> Or a written language?
S> But better than the ignorant Shits who did invent the wheel and nearly
S> destroyed the world in the process.
I assume in keeping with your hatred of the "wheel-makers" that you use
nothing made by them? Oh dear you appear to have a computer....
Are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
Paul
... "J.J. needs to be Hitt", said Starfire, as he watched his 830mb drive
slowly format itself
--- Spot 1.3a #1413
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 04 Feb 97 01:28:14
EID:a89a 22440b80
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 32effc3c
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f69116
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH>> The KKK boyos have exactly the same right to claim Christianity
DH>> as you do.
KY>> y6@eY{+0+0+0+00000000[(f
RS> Uh oh, Dave . . . looks like Ken is sending a Xtian curse
RS> your way. Better go unplug your appliances . . .
Aw, jeez. And just when we got the 'lectricity. To me this
looks like ANSI for "Blam!"
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: New brain cells produced
|Date: 04 Feb 97 01:39:08
EID:e0f7 22440ce0
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 32f3afed
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f69380
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DL> (NOTE: How long do you think it will take the creationists to turn it
DL> into "evolutionary science fiction"?? :> )
After having read it, I found myself wondering if it would work on them.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Steve just doesn't give up
|Date: 04 Feb 97 01:42:36
EID:f5ab 22440d40
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 32f25ba3
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f69517
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
SW> The promisekeeper filth keep removing this from the public newsgroup
SW> alt.org.promisekeepers.
I have had the (um) experience of knowing Mike Scheidell (moderator
of alt.org.promiskeepers) well enough to have accompanied him to
his church in Boca Raton with his family some 8 years ago.
I would look forward to future exchanges similar to what you have
posted, and would be reluctant to bet money on either side, if you
get my meaning . . .
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 04 Feb 97 01:48:58
EID:d388 22440e00
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f43552
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f6984e
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
KY> Yep.. They THOUGHT they were Christians, however they did not have
KY> the basic Christian beliefs..
Does this mean that you are stating these people did not and could
not, have had a personal relationship with Jesus?
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can you think of
KY> lately, that occurred in the name of Christianity?
You don't get out much, do you? Been checking the regular,
non-partisan news lately about the number of folks diddling
with little children, who are acknowledged by themselves and
their parishes to be in a loving relationship with Jesus?
Now, just before you go declaring these people to be
Not-True-Christians, I'm wondering about the process.
I mean, we hear from the bumper stickers that xtians
are not perfect, just forgiven, but I want to hear
that from someone "in the know."
So I have some questions for you:
1) Are pastors that bugger the little boys true Christians? Or
do you have some way to throw them out and get their frequent
flyers cards back?
2) If they repent do they become true Christians again?
3) If they are forgiven, then weren't they Christian while
they were human beings slipping down the little underpants?
4) Who, if anyone, takes responsibility for the trauma suffered
by victims at the hands (and other body parts) of these priviledged
individuals? The individuals themselves? The Church? Nobody?
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 04 Feb 97 02:02:26
EID:f39e 22441040
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f43734
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f69a7f
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
KY> Yes, we create hunger.. Besides the fact that we are not obeying God,
KY> there are plenty of others ways we cause hunger, famine, disease,
KY> etc.
Ah. Like in Egypt with Moses. In a striking similarity with
events in the gulf war, god took his stuff out for a field
demonstration (probably for the commies of the time, right, Ken?)
and did a whole bunch of god shit. Famine, plague, pestilence,
special effects.
And for what? Egypt said, Ok, enough! But, no, God hardened pharoh's
heart (against pharoh's own will) and smucked them some more.
Now, can god really do this, or not?
What has created hunger in Africa, Ken, is ignorance. Nothing more.
Nothing less. What have these people ever done to god except be
fruitful and muliply until there was no more food. Why doesn't
god fix it, Ken? Why doesn't he offer them a loan? Why does he
just ignore them and let them die?
Can got fix this? Can you think of a good reason why he hasn't?
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Convention on the Rights of the Child 3/3
|Date: 04 Feb 97 02:24:18
EID:46e8 22441300
REPLY: 3:711/933 32f3781e
MSGID: 1:229/622 32f69fa6
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Anthony Grigor-Scott to Laurie Appleton:
AG> Dear Laurie Appleton,
AG> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Has it dawned on you that if you are evil and wacky as you appear,
that this opening springboard of yours is blasphemy? It has to
several participants here, and I invite you to consider it.
You are taking it upon yourself to speak in a public media
on the issue of raising children. You may or may not realize
that people will take your word for what you say beause, well,
they may trust you, not having access to history or anything.
I'm beginning to conclude that you are sociopathic. Others here
have stated there is a difference between psychopathic and
sociopathic. According to the DSM-IV, they are interchangeable
terms.
Here's where this leads: If a single child is hurt, maimed, abused,
incested *as a result of your prattling* are you prepared to revise,
acknowledge your mistake, and apologize? Or will you just carry on?
I'm in the ol'e sunset of life. I hope never in the rest of my
life meet anyone as truly evil as you.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:23
EID:177b 22439c80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF John = Musselwhite THEN Damien Wellman ELSE Black lipstick
DW> fooling around in port, the reason for punishment was entered in the
DW> log as "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge", or the acronym F.U.C.K. for
JM> Thats a folk tale that's been around a long time... However
JM> fanciful it is, according to the books it's untrue.
You learn new things every day. I was unaware of that. So it seems every
one of the common vulgarisms have a long history.
... "I WANT ON THE INFORMATION SUPER HIGHWAY!" -- Crow T. Robot
---
* TLX v4.00 *Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:23
EID:b488 22439c80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Judith = Bandsma THEN Damien Wellman ELSE Hypocritical people
DW> Hell, I qualify for borderline poverty.
JB> So? For West Virginia, that's RICH.
The ICBMs have been launched and should arrive shortly.
... "Crow! Would you just find the secret button?" -- Mike Nelson
---
* TLX v4.00 *Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hypocritical fundy death cultists
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:23
EID:d8e2 22439c80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Fredric = Rice THEN Don Martin ELSE Hypocritical fundy death cultists
dm> Those who attempt to stuff their fallacious leaps from "ANY" to
dm> "ALL" into the mouths of others are, in my humble opinion, lying
dm> sacks of shit.
FR> This guy could almost be Staal using another alias.
He isn't. I've seen him around in other echos (where he is usually an
urbane, reasonable fellow). I have a feeling he's just acting like a lot
of Christians (or members of many other religions): There's a certain
compartment of the mind marked "HOLY: DO NOT DISTURB" and when something
comes along that contradicts it, they _can't_ do anything else but
spew out their programming.
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ A jug is carried under your coat for a dishonest reason.
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:23
EID:7046 22439c80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Robert = Curry THEN Dan Ceppa ELSE native americans
DC> I have to agree with David on that point. Though it does
DC> not ensure that a technology will develop, it is the basis
DC> of all technology, FMPOV.
RC> Do you need to be able to harness fire in order to use a spear?
True. You only need fire if you want the spear to have a metal head or
shaft.
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ Any sufficiently advanced magic looks like technology.
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: THX-1138 and Louis Wu
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:23
EID:ab9b 22439c80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Richard = Smith THEN Fredric Rice ELSE THX-1138 and Louis Wu
RS> Ahem. In the FIRST Ringworld novel, Louis Wu had never had a
RS> droud implanted. That was when he and Nexus and Speaker to
RS> Animals first went to the Ringworld. In the second novel, he
RS> HAD been under the droud for a bit when C'mee (Not sure I
RS> have the name correct, but he used to be called Speaker to
RS> Animals) and Nexus' old lover came to collect him. Partial
RS> points.
Actually, there is more than one novel that has devices of this type,
while I don't know if it came before or after Ringworld, Spider Robinson's
"Mindkiller" comes to mind, as does the short story it was based on,
"God Is An Iron".
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ Illuminatus vehicles provided by the Fnord Motor Company
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:23
EID:96a0 22439c80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Dave = Hamilton THEN Jonathan Fingas ELSE Hypocritical people
JF> When was the last time? Never. Because non-religious people DON'T
JF> HAVE ethics or morals, and so could care less.
Umm... Jon? Your point has one flaw. I am not religious. I do have a system
of ethics and morals. Ergo, at least some non-religious people have
ethics and morals.
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ Never let your morals keep you from doing what is right.
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Al S.; Warring Christani
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:24
EID:b3a7 22439c80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Rod = Swift THEN Fredric Rice ELSE Al S.; Warring Christani
RS> Thanks for this quotation being put into your illustrious
RS> collection. I consider it an honour. I hope that I can provide
RS> many more posts and quotes to your collection of online debunking
RS> material.
You luck dog, you. :) You're in at least two of Fred's quotes and I only
made one, which I last seen several months ago. It wasn't even one of
my witter comments!
... Cause saying those nouns over and over can really wear you down...
---
* TLX v4.00 *Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ski Canada -- In the sum
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:24
EID:8f2a 22439c80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Rod = Swift THEN Fredric Rice ELSE Ski Canada -- In the sum
FR> I'm often embarrassed by American exhibitions of stupidity
FR> and ignorance. When I was in France I disliked muchly the
FR> loud-mouthed Americans who uttered demands and wanted to be
FR> treated like royalty.
RS> Americans are like that everywhere they go in the world. It is
RS> because they don't have the humility to realise they aren't the
RS> best country in the world.
Well, I've never been out of the USA yet, but if I do, I'll promise to
behave humbly. :)
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ Some nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Uri Tidhar
|Sub: Re:
|Date: 02 Feb 97 14:12:14
EID:1137 22427180
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 883e3619
REPLY: 2:407/10 32efed39
TID: GE/32 1.2
UT> What is god's religion?
Why, God's a Subgenius, of course.
... Fuck it. I don't give a damn about apathy.
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Pedophile Christian cooks / NAMBLA
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:00:01
EID:1b71 2242a800
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 1c24fb6b
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 0d973c6f
28 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Fredric Rice to Ed Mills:
em> Lon Mabon breathes a little easier today, knowing that, for a
em> little while, people's attention will be diverted away from
em> him and his thus-far well-concealed NAMBLA membership.
FR> "Mabon" is actually Jim Staal -- it's one of his racist personalities.
As far as I can tell, Jim lives in Michigan. Lon Mabon has always
infested Oregon, AFAIK. Is Mabon this infamous all over the country,
as well as in Australia? Between him, Tonya Harding and Bob Packwood,
we've done ourselves right proud, hereabouts!
FR> I was reading, by the way, a bunch of homosexual newsgroups this
FR> evening and was surprised by the number of people who defend pedophile
FR> sex with consenting children. There were personal accounts by people
FR> who claim to have engaged in sex with adults when they were in their
FR> early teens yet I can't help but consider the claims to be lies
FR> designed to make people believe that there are willing children.
There's a huge gray area there that people seem completely unwilling
to address, as well. At what point does a significant age difference
become pedophilia? Although I find it incomprehensible that anyone
would want to have sex with a child, I also find it incomprehensible
that a nineteen-year-old can go to prison for schtupping a sixteen-
year-old.
I don't know about same-sex consent, but I can tell you that, as a
child, I'd have gotten naked for Barbara Feldon any way, any where. :)
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: St. Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/24.12)
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Phallus Sees!
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:18:34
EID:b769 2242aa40
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 6332d611
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32eeb9a2
29 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from David Worrell to Ed Mills:
DW> 27 Jan 97 20:30, Ed Mills wrote to Jan deBoer:
EM> Do the Quadro-Tracker people make a model that detects junk
EM> science?
DW> Wouldn't it explode?
Oh, yeah.
Well, how about one that detects a sucker? It would simply need
an articulated rod so it could point 180 degrees off forward.
edweird
... "Are they taking DDT?" (Quayle question to Manhattan AIDS clinic staff)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: St. Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/24.12)
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: False Christian Scum
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:21:24
EID:46e3 2242aaa0
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 43a06253
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 32eec7c8
29 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from David Worrell to Ed Mills:
DW> 27 Jan 97 21:29, Ed Mills wrote to David Worrell:
DW> DW>> If you leave us again, I'll be forced to send my black
DW> DW>> helicopters after you.
EM> Won't do you any good. I live in a Stealth Hovel with Frozen
EM> Sewer Camouflage and Modular Heatless I.R. Invisibility .
DW> We now have Brain seeking missiles.
DW> A wonderful invention, actually. Fire them into a crowd of people, and
DW> the fundies walk out unscathed.
DW> You're in deep shit, though.
Shucks.
Actually, I'm not in deep shit anymore. We got moved out of the
hovel and into a yuppie-fuck garden apartment. These folks are
looking at me like fuckin' Jed Clampett just moved in next door.
Yee-ha!
edweird
... Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: St. Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/24.12)
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Jan deBoer
|Sub: The bad old days
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:31:25
EID:8d9e 2242abe0
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 f2a0a343
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32ef918a
28 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Jan deBoer to Ed Mills:
EM> Today I saw a girl smoking at a bus stop - from the looks of her,
EM> she was born right about the time I quit smoking.
Jd> Most people feel that aging is a slow, continuous process. It isn't.
Jd> I was as young as ever the morning I took the truck in for service,
Jd> and decided to throw the bicycle in the back, and ride home, instead
Jd> of paying for a cab.
Jd> Cycling home, I passed two kids heading for school, and overheard one
Jd> say to the other, "lookit that old geezer", [meaning ME].
Jd> I aged thirty years at that instant.
As the velocipede is my primary means of getting around, I am
familiar with that sort of thing, although geezerhood is a state
yet to be fully realized.
I get a lot of from people who consider a 41-year-old
riding a bike to be a bit of a loser.
And it's kind of funny to watch them try to make any greater exertion
than driving with their bloated, fish-belly-white, semi-invalid
bodies.
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: St. Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/24.12)
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|From: Ed Mills
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Yahweh sent me some m
|Date: 02 Feb 97 21:42:20
EID:92c1 2242ad40
MSGID: 1:105/24.12 6a2dea57
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 32e8348c
23 Jan 97: another heap o' yappin' from Richard Smith to Ed Mills:
RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> Ed Mills said to Richard Smith about Yahweh sent me some m:
EM> Highly intelligent Islamic practice of sentencing someone to
EM> death in absentia. The famous one was Dumbfuck Assholeatollah
EM> Khomeini's contract on Salman Rushdie's head. Poetically, Khomeini
EM> croaked without realizing his dream, thereby disproving the
EM> theorem that "no news is good news." :)
RS> Ah, yes . . . I remember them dancing with his body at his
RS> funeral. Where did he ever end up at, and was he mostly
RS> intact when tossed in the dirt?
Hey! You're sort of back! Greetings!
I don't know any more than that about him. I would imagine he
got a pretty nice sendoff, it being an Islamic funnymentalist
culture, AFAIK.
edweird
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: St. Vitus's Dance Studio (1:105/24.12)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Brawley's Bait Shop
|Date: 02 Feb 97 09:09:54
EID:f3ec 22424920
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 dbc8ed75
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 32ef22ee
On 29 Jan 97, Rod Swift wrote:
JB> Define "BSE," please?
RS> Bovine S. Encephalitis, right? :) Mad-cow disease :)
Yes. We're still not sure what the 'S' stands for, though.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Oh, mama don' 'llow no li'l nonfalsifiables runnin' roun' heah...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: Sorrowful Jones
|Date: 04 Feb 97 11:53:22
EID:36db 22445ea0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 32f7235d
REPLY: 2:250/366.22 32dea347
PID: GED3 2.51.a1026 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Jovis dies January 16 1997, Dixit Paul Davis ad Steve Quarrella:
PD> If we try to discern the origin of the universe by studying purely
PD> physical manifestations then aren't we forever locked into the loop
of
PD> being able to ask where it came from? ie. no matter if we see the world
as
PD> made of quarks or God then we can still ask the question, where did
it
PD> come from? (This does not invalidate either question BTW)
Sorry, Paul, but I'm not a physicist. My ignorance of advanced physics
does not validate the existence of deities, in any event. You can consider
the possibility of alternate realities to your heart's content, and that's
fine. If we're going to play "What if?," though, we should also consider
that the universe may have been created by a large green fish which was
suffering from a bad case of digestion, n'est-ce pas?
PD> Maybe it also explains why there is no (physical) evidence for God(s)
PD> if they do exist in some form.
Your average deity believer claims to have been in commune with their deity
at some point. Sounds like deities visit us all the time.
PD> BTW, are you an anti-theist or an atheist?
I am anti-theist only when it comes to the use of theism to bully others.
I could otherwise care less what a person thinks or believes. I do not
ascribe existence to deities, unless you wish to provide some evidence for
them (or for alternate realities).
--- GoldED 2.51.A1026+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:42:50
EID:1c3c 22436d40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f5eb5a
-> On 01 Feb 97 05:32:13, ROBERT CURRY got back to JOHN BRAWLEY
JB> But since we cannot see what "infinity" is, "infinity" is
JB> to us BOTH odd and even.
RC> Nope -- the integers are alternately odd and even. Since "infinity"
RC> is not an integer, it possesses neither of those qualities.
And it has both!
After all, how many odd numbers are there in the infinite set of
even numbers?
... If you want to know about paranoids, follow them around.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: ...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 13:47:44
EID:8001 22436de0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f5ec80
-> On 02 Feb 97 05:28:13, Mark Kimes got back to David Ragland
DR> I long for the return of the days when there were women (and
DR> children for that matter) with an air of innocence about them.
He actually wrote the above, didn't he. He must have a
death wish.
DR> Something for you and Marilyn and all women to think about...
MK> I'm sure they will, for the few seconds it'll take to blast you. :-)
I hope he likes Chocolate Pie. And, I do suspect that it will
be administered to him in a rather unorthodox manner.
... Special Harpy effects supplied by Bandsma, Bustilloz, Withersnight LTD
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:09:31
EID:77a9 22437120
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f5f19b
-> On 31 Jan 97 12:02:00, Roger Hunter got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> What would you do if your god demanded that you do that rape?
AS> Refuse without a second's thought, even if it meant damnation.
DC> What would you do if your daughter was the victim and someone
DC> that could have prevented it didn't help?
RH> You know, if we keep hammering Al with these questions designed
RH> to point out the inconsistencies in his faith, something is going
RH> to break.
RH> I suspect it will be his willingness to post here.
I hope not. Al's one of the few fundys that I can have a
fun conversion in here with. After all, the only other one
I can think of is/was Michael Hardy!
It's not scientific, but my guess is that they are actually
coming up with those inconsistencies to help themselves get
over their indoctrination. After all, it's easier to get
some one to slap you with reality than it is to slap yourself
with it.
I do think that many of the taglines I gleaned from Mikey
may back up my claim. (Thanks, Mike! And, I don't think
you are clueless anymore.)
... "Thread Dropped, discussion welcome." Michael "clueless" Hardy
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:16:26
EID:5c09 22437200
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f5f33a
-> On 01 Feb 97 10:35:33, Martin Goldberg got back to David Ragland
DR> FRMy guess is you know zero about biology and molecular biology.
MG> Well since I make my living int he field of molecular micorbiology and
Said the spider to the fly....
MG> To make it simple, put everything you know int he box below.
MG> [ ]
Too big of a box for him to fill if he did a complete core dump.
... "Bother," said Pooh, as he poured the cement around Eeyore's feet.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Anthropic asininities.
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:22:41
EID:cd45 224372c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f5f4b1
-> On 01 Feb 97 07:50:19, Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Now all we have to do is start making the Mr Potato Head add-ons
DC> in thermoplastic to decorate him properly.
MG> What sort of add-ons would these be. While we hear stories of carrots
MG> and cukes,t he most oft removed vegetable from human orifices in ER's
MG> is the common potato.
And, I would have thought it was the zucchini.
MG> It is used by the uninformed as a birth control device.
You're serious about that, aren't you?
MG> I even though of a new slogan..."Today Mr. Potato Head, tomorrow Mr.
MG> Head Potata." I kinda like it. we'll make a mint.
We'll have to change the name, though: "Mr. Head Potatoe"
Then, we get Dan Quayle to be our spokesperson!
... It is difficult to prophesize, especially about the future.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Darrow Nonsense!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:42:22
EID:16a2 22437540
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f5f94e
-> On 31 Jan 97 15:21:04, Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Besides, the thowing darts at him is like hitting the
MG> I don't mind discussing anything. No one is really going to change
MG> their stripes, no matter what Mike Hardy has said.
That still remains to be determined....
MG> Appleton, like Hitler is a fruitcake and no amount of "preaching" will
MG> However, if you flush enough, like any good grogan he'll disappear.
As it's been rainy here, I don't mind using the water, especially
for a good cause.
... Hitler was perfectly legal in his extermination of millions of Jews.KW
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Elephants, Man!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:53:15
EID:34a9 224376a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f5fbdb
-> On 01 Feb 97 04:51:23, Don Martin got back to Martin Goldberg
DM> Ever drive for Shirley MacLaine in one of hers?
MG> How many elephants did she ever own?
DM> During any one particular incarnation? Or cumulatively?
ES&D!
ROTF-LMAO-WACIMM!!!!
... Life's a bitch... and then you get reincarnated...!!!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: FAT PEOPLE
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:05:11
EID:63a3 224378a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f5fea7
-> On 02 Feb 97 10:31:02, David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa
DW>> Western civilization is dead. All that's left is to await the
DW>> sprouting of the mushrooms.
DC> How long have you been in this Echo? Just what do you think
DC> that fundys are?
DW> Those weren't the mushrooms I was thinking about. :)
I don't tell good jokes, though I know a lot of them. However,
I do know when to step on a punchline. Better yet, I
know a good straightline when I see it!
Besides, the only reason those fundys are here is because of
the shit they've been feed by their masters.
... G'day, mate...throw another fundy on the barbie!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: FREEDOM TO BLAME
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:17:35
EID:d723 22437a20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f6018f
-> On 02 Feb 97 06:28:04, Mark Kimes got back to Dan Ceppa
HP>> It's obvious: Al's gods are omniimpotent.
DC> So, just who did knock up Mary?
MK> Joseph, if we can believe _any_ of the myth, which is very much in
MK> doubt. ___
For a different aspect on that, read Barbara Theiring's works.
She has an aspect on that that may make sense of the "Divine
Conception" and why it was necessary.
As she sees it, Jesus would have been a bastard, but the
lineage was correct. The Essenes saw to it that is was!
Interesting read, at least until she tries to make it a
"pescher inside a pescher".
... "God doesn't do anything because he's omni-impotent." Hector Plasmic
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: God came to stay
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:24:54
EID:33bb 22437b00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f60346
____________________________________________
| 1 ONE |
| .d8888b. .d8888b. |
| d88P Y88b HOLYSMOKE CLUEPON d88P Y88b |
| .d88P .d88P |
| .d88P" good for .d88P" |
| 888" 888" |
| 888 One *FREE* Clue 888 |
| |
| 888 888 |
| ONE 1 |
--------------------------------------------
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:36:55
EID:c41f 22437c80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f60617
-> On 02 Feb 97 10:33:49, David Worrell got back to Jonathan Fingas
DW> ____________________________________________
DW> | 1 ONE |
DW> | .d8888b. .d8888b. |
DW> | d88P Y88b HOLYSMOKE CLUEPON d88P Y88b |
DW> | .d88P .d88P |
DW> | .d88P" good for .d88P" |
DW> | 888" 888" |
DW> | 888 One *FREE* Clue 888 |
DW> | |
DW> | 888 888 |
DW> | ONE 1 |
DW> --------------------------------------------
ROLTF!
So, just when are you going to send us the necessary "Get
out of pedophilia free" card so that ministers can play and
play and play and play some more?
And, just how do you expect Fingas to know when he needs
a clue?
... New! From Von Danniken! "Chariots of the Clods!"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 15:45:07
EID:c41f 22437da0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f60803
-> On 02 Feb 97 10:46:43, David Worrell got back to Jonathan Fingas
JF> his over-use of, shall I say, "bad language."
DW> What is "bad" language, and why is it bad?
Quesque' ce le fucking fundie? (That's French for "Fingas
is a fool)
JF> somewhere where you have the time to think out your response. Seems
JF> like he's using vulgarity for vulgarity's sake.
DW> Dan likely uses profanity for the same reason I do - it bothers
DW> pathetic little worms like you.
I do wonder about that boy. He's dragging a multiple number
of chains around. And, all of them are labled: "Pull Me!"
Keep him around for a while. I'm going fishing soon. The
trout like those little worms.
... What was the last thing to go thru Kurt Cobain's mind? His Teeth!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 16:03:31
EID:19bc 22438060
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f60c53
-> On 27 Jan 97 22:59:58, Paul Davis got back to Jonathan Fingas
With: God Dan
JF> theology (which you obviously don't and are mentally incapable of),
the
PD> I think you're going to hell Fingas. Isn't there a ruling about making
PD> judgements of other people in your book or something? Seems you've
PD> broken it.
See Judith Bandsma's message to me. She knows that I not only
carry a gun, but I also carry a backup. (Mom taught me that!)
Fingas hasn't a clue, other than the one's he's been fed.
... Well, a long time ago, I was Catholic. But I got better. - M. Leipzig
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 03 Feb 97 16:07:02
EID:099c 224380e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f60d26
-> On 02 Feb 97 11:47:29, Jason Harmon got back to Jonathan Fingas
JF> By the way, personal attacks can get you kicked out of this forum,
JF> so I'd suggest you come up with something other than lame name-calling.
JH> Who the fuck made you moderator, dipshit?
See what he says below:
JF> The Bible is the only thing we have for proof,
'Nuff said, except for concurring with your evaluation of
the dipshit.
... 19th Rule of Creationism: Always, always, always appeal to authority.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: It's a boy!
|Date: 03 Feb 97 16:20:53
EID:f0d9 22438280
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f61065
-> On 02 Feb 97 05:29:05, Mark Kimes got back to Lee Woofenden
Gobiteyouself-o!
LW> My wife and I have a new baby boy, born Thursday, January 30. Mother
and
LW> baby are fine.
MK> Congratulations!
MK> (Now, please don't succumb to the temptation to throw that new baby
MK> out the window to prove the concrete won't hurt it as it's not yet
MK> conscious of what will happen when it lands.)
That's crude, Mark, just god damned fucking crude.
And, why the hell didn't I think about it and send the very same
message?
But, what the fuck, it was your Experiment to begin with!
... So far back in the hills, even the Episcopalians handle snakes.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 03 Feb 97 16:33:01
EID:52d7 22438420
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f6133d
-> On 01 Feb 97 21:06:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to David Ragland
DG> A loud, shouted "AMEN!"
Don't forget to include the "FUCK YOU".
DG> have to answer to God why he did when you tried to warn him. You are
DG> preaching God's words to him, brother, keep it up! Maybe someday, if
You imbecilic god demands it. Can you read your own bible?
DG> listen, and trust Christ as their Savior and Lord. (They'll either
DG> glorify Him now by choice, or glorify Him later by force. I prefer
to
You forgot, Darryl, and your other bro Darryl, that you are
nothing other than sinners. You bible says so.
DG> David Worrell, if you are reading this too, I urge you to repent.
Evidence that David as ever pented? If not, there is no
reason for him to repent.
DG> That means to turn away from the garbage you have bought, and turn and
I told him to leave that bible at home, but it did bring it out.
Perhaps you could use it for toilette paper. If not, just shove
it up your ass.
DG> clearer than this: without Christ you are a lost sinner, and bound for
See above, pink boy. You are a sinner. To make the matter worse,
you are not allowed to talk to your god.
DG> an eternity first in hell, then in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20).
And, you believe in that shit? Nice fucking god that you worhsip.
DG> and serve God, or you can choose to go your own way, serving this
DG> world. The choice is now before you. What do you say, David?
My guess is that he'll say that you are worse than looney-toons.
And, you are.
... "I'm god & can do anything, but not anything worthwhile for humanity."
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 03 Feb 97 16:36:47
EID:a99a 22438480
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f6141f
-> On 01 Feb 97 11:07:00, David Ragland got back to Martin Goldberg
DR> Why, yes. As a matter of fact, I do. ;) Look to your own evidence
DR> first though, ok? Specifically, look at why _you_ believe God exists
DR> and let's see how it compares to mine. Don't bother telling me you
Where's your evidence, Ragland? Got any?
DR> _don't_ believe. I won't believe you. I don't believe "anyone" who
DR> says this. I believe they are just being rebellious.
I believe that you don't have any testable evidence that your
silly, bigotted, lying sack of shit that you call "God"
exists. However, I do believe that you believe the bullshit
that your've been fed.
... "Man has the one true religion. Several of them!" -- Twain
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Leviticus
|Date: 03 Feb 97 16:43:22
EID:2a99 22438560
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f615aa
-> On 01 Feb 97 05:38:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> KW> That miter have have something to do with it, for I do enjoy
the
DC> DC> KW> drill. -!-
DC> DC>What rout'er you taking? Will it be a long boring one? (Punning
DC> DC>is a vise of mine, tool.)
DC> KW> No, I prefer to lathe a solid foundation.
DC>After much editing of the long >>>>>,'s,
DC>can I say that I'd like to router root you? Or, at least get you
DC>to reply to these things with less ">>>>>>" 's? :)
KW> Still trying to figure an angle? Don't worry, you'll fit it to a tee,
KW> square. I'll let you just plum bob along.
I fig you'd get the hang of this. I've been dangling it out.
And, yes it's my belt, not a thread! (Have to stay one up
on you!)
... Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. - Franklin
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Leviticus
|Date: 03 Feb 97 16:47:33
EID:2a99 224385e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f616a5
-> On 01 Feb 97 05:38:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>Don't mind me, it was a fun day after a fun weekend! Looking
DC>forward to the next one, Monday night, and a day sailing
KW> While you caught me the night after the day before. That
Strange, I must have missed the experience! Unless it was the
night I took 5 bucks away from the casino...
KW> lovely NEC, and change to spare. Of course, dealing with Bear while
he
KW> tried to figure out how to get the tape back up into the silly thing
so
KW> that it worked wasn't fun. It's all up and running, now.
I should ask for pay for _not_ logging on to boards. Seems like
they go down shortly after I log on.
KW> I hope.
Never saw your message! (You should hope!)
... I'm deserving of death because of my Lord. - Jerry Wilcox
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 03 Feb 97 17:02:47
EID:5f9d 22438840
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f61a37
-> On 02 Feb 97 14:25:03, David Worrell got back to ROBERT CURRY
DW> I'm not sure I can do that. I don't consider *simple* tool use
DW> (whether it be pointy sticks as spears by humans, or bent twigs by
DW> monkeys as termite gathering tools) as technology.
There's a species (following this, Appletoon?) of finches in
the Galapago Island that uses twigs to get ants. Then, to,
there's an other species that has evoloved long
beaks to do similarly. Different niches for different
circumstances.
I think that the difference is using those tools to make
_other_ tools.
... "Christians spend more time burning bridges than building them." DW
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Pedophile Christian cooks / NAMBLA
|Date: 03 Feb 97 17:08:23
EID:f5f8 22438900
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f61b87
-> On 31 Jan 97 16:30:58, Martin Goldberg got back to Jim Staal
JS> (just to assist in getting your personal goat)
MG> Is a personal goat anything like a personal savior?
Similar, but real. And, tastier too, as it's not as old
as the rotting god on a stick.
... The Norse gods' favorite music--Ragnarok'n'roll.
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|From: God Dan
|To: Leonard Bernier
|Sub: Psalm 69:4 / John 15:25
|Date: 03 Feb 97 17:16:12
EID:de93 22438a00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f61d5c
-> On 31 Jan 97 08:31:00, Leonard Bernier got back to All
LB> PROPHECY: - The Messiah will be hated without a cause.
Unfortunately, your "godling" is the cause of hatred.
LB> Those who hate me without a cause are more then the hairs of my head.
Good thing that you aren't bald. You might make bears come
down on people.
LB> FULFILLMENT: But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which
LB> is written in their law, "They hated Me without a cause."
I've seen the bullshit you have posted. You have given ample
cause.
... "Oh bother"said Pooh ,Centering Crosshairs on Jesus. (R. Voss commas)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Websites Etc.
|Date: 03 Feb 97 17:45:47
EID:a257 22438da0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f6244b
-> On 01 Feb 97 20:51:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to All
DG> Just thought I'd invite you to visit my two Web pages:
To do what? Attempt to snare minds less than yours? There's
no species on this planet, other than yourself, that is
so gullable.
DG> The Hope Page==> a page where I share thoughts from the Bible, to
Like, Noah's "Flood"?
DG> point you towards a right relationship to God & encourage you along
the
DG> way http://members.tripod.com/~DJGONZA/index.html
Just how far do you bend over as your god shoves it to you? Or,
are you "in him"?
DG> me, the things I enjoy doing, etc. You'll find that while you may call
DG> me a "fundy", I'm not your average "fundy". I also have some nice
No, you are sub-average.
DG> Christ's Love,
DG> Darryl
You forgot to mention your other brother Darryl, the smarter
on of the two of you. And, you forgot about Larry, the
brother that you need to exist.
... "I seemed to have misplaced my brain, again." : Darryl Gonzalez
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Personal jabs
|Date: 03 Feb 97 21:41:48
EID:d5e8 2243ad20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f65b9c
-> On 29 Jan 97 10:38:56, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
DM> Not that there are all _that_ many people on the Olympic
DM> Peninsula with whom cone can have a conversation in either
DM> Polish _or_ French.
Most seem not to be conversant in _any_ language!
DM> languages via the palate. A patissier is about to join the
DM> practice--watch this waistline for a growth spurt!
Immersion is till the best way to learn a language. That's
why I liked Peter Nicpon's course in college. It's been
close to 30 yrs since I took that course, but, other than
not spelling his last name correctly, I still remember
the teacher. After all, teachers like that are few and
far between, escpecially in this day and age.
... Christians: Always willing to lay down your life for their belief.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Personal jabs
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:28:27
EID:62c1 2243b380
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f6668b
-> On 30 Jan 97 12:21:28, Dave Hamilton got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> though, it will be French, as I have studied that a bit
DC> more recently and a lot deeper.
DH> That might come in handy if Quebec becomes a US state. You
Nukes will be handier should that happen!
DH> will be able to read the ingredients of your breakfast cereal
DH> in both official languages.
Most of that already has 3 languages on them.
DC> died, I'm not sure if there's anyone in the family that
DC> is still very conversant in Polish.
DH> I'm the first generation not to be fluent in Gaelic. There
DH> are not enough people in Southern Ontario that speak it that
As Don Martin pointed out, there aren't any in this neck of
the woods to speak with in Polish, let alone French.
DH> I know that though I've inherited a Scottish heritage, my
DH> number one goal is to be a useful, contributing Canadian.
Considering the Quebe‡ois are there, couldn't that be considered
an oxymoron?
... GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN! -- You push and I'll steer...
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: THX-1138 and Louis Wu
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:38:43
EID:bc2b 2243b4c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f668f3
-> On 29 Jan 97 12:09:09, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
dc> but it sounds like the movie _TXH 1045_ (sp?)
FR> THX-1138 with Robert Duvall and Donald Pleasence, directed by George
So, what's 93 among friends?
FR> Lucas and musical scores performed by Lalo Schifrin. They had
I didn't know he directed that one! I must move it up on my
want to see movie list.
FR> transport and makes a run for the city seals, being chased by the
FR> robot "peace keepers" (all the while being told by the cops that he's
FR> in danger and is being persued for his own good.)
Sounds a bit like _Blade Runner_ and another movie that's name
escapes me right now. (No it didn't!) _Logan's Run_
FR> A must-see movie. The cops (and thus the State) are faceless
I've noticed it on late night, but never taken the time to
tape it.
FR> and complacent; entertainment consists of people getting beaten to
FR> death by robot cops on the out-of-focus television sets in people's
FR> cubistic houses (a more "truthful" form of entertainment, you see.)
Sounds a lot like Football, but that means I have to mention yet
another movie.
FR> tolerated; one guy thinks he's a hologram -- I can't recall why.
So that you can see through him?
... "Do you or don't you worship a jewish hippy?" Ryan Shaw
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Uh, um not a Fundy, I just talk like one
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:43:32
EID:4e63 2243b560
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f66a14
-> On 30 Jan 97 11:21:31, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
JF> How do you know what happens in my home? You're either a
jf> stalker, or you're just trying to pad your ego.
dc> Can Jonathan understand the word, 'paranoid'?
FR> It wouldn't surprise me if he's just a 14-year-old whos mommy doesn't
FR> know he's on the computer and whos daddy just doesn't care.
I'd be suprised to find out that he has ever personally known
any of the above. Best guess is that the both of them never
got together when he was conceived.
... Every absurdity has a champion to defend it.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be sa
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:49:14
EID:b7d5 2243b620
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f66b6a
-> On 28 Jan 97 18:50:00, Richard Smith got back to Dan Ceppa
GtP> hand exactly what it is that makes me "divine".
PD> You look like him?
DC> Your god has big tits?
RS> Doesn't everyone's?
To be honest, none of my Godesses have big tits. After all, more
than a mouth full is a waste.
And, I'm not lying about that! There is only one woman that I've
ever gone out with because of her body. And, yes, it was a mistake!
Triple-D on the chest, and F- in the brain cavity.
... Frankenstein's monster in Jerusalem = Scaring the bejeezus of Nazareth
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Why don't we see God[sic]
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:52:16
EID:cc71 2243b680
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f66c20
-> On 29 Jan 97 04:15:00, Lee Woofenden got back to David Rice
LW> Must all accounts of having seen God be rejected simply because they
LW> are about having seen God? Or is there some other reason that these
LW> accounts must be rejected? Be specific, please.
When was the last time you saw Santa?
When was the last time you believed in Mr. Claus?
Be specific.
... "Evidence" is a dirty word if you don't have any. Hector Plasmic
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: You forgot to answer this...
|Date: 03 Feb 97 22:55:11
EID:8564 2243b6e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 32f66ccf
-> On 30 Jan 97 23:42:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Fredric Rice
FR> Why does anyone need to be "saved?"
DG> Because all have sinned, and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:23).
DG> Here i s the clear picture from Scripture:
Tough luck, Darryl and to your other brother Darryl. Seems
like you can't ask you god for anything, per your very own bible.
... "I brake for animals; I floor it for Fundies!"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Domino
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 03 Feb 97 19:36:02
EID:057b 22439c80
MSGID: 1:123/531.0 2f684800
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 1460e258
PID: timEd-B11
Marilyn, having seen Domino during his little streak, remarked:
D > an art teacher who hates gays and has kicked a couple guys
D > out of his class numerous times because he mistakenly thought
D > they were gay, a history teacher who said that people of
D > Eastern religions worshipped snakes and were evil, and a
D > principal who stokes on the weekends.)
MB> Pardon my ignorance, but what does "stoke" mean in this
MB> context?
He smokes marijuana.
Abreq ad Hƒbra
Domino
---
* Origin: Clockwork BBS, Covington TN, (901)475-1195 (1:123/531)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 03 Feb 97 14:04:05
EID:42df 22437080
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f5f09c
REPLY: 1:383/6293 32EC0D8E
PID: GED3 2.5
02 Feb 97 02:06, Darryl Gonzalez wrote to David Ragland:
DG> David Worrell, if you are reading this too, I urge you to repent.
It's kind of hard to "repent" when you've never "pented."
DG> follow Him who paid the price for your sin. Man, I can't make it any
DG> clearer than this: without Christ you are a lost sinner, and bound for
DG> an eternity first in hell, then in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20).
That's nice. Got any evidence?
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Jonathan Fingas
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 02 Feb 97 08:50:34
EID:a3f6 22424640
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 32f4a9ba
REPLY: 1:163/215.0 32f14ea2
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Jonathan Fingas said this about Hypocritical
people
DM>> I'm looking forward to your check, and I get _real_
DM>> nasty when I am disappointed. Ask anyone here.
JF> Why don't we just call it even... I'm getting exhausted of being the
JF> unstoppable force vs. the immovable object. Let's talk about more
You've got to be fucking kidding. Unstoppable force? Quite a modest title
you've chosen for yourself.
/\\ark...
... The fool hath said in his heart: "There is a god."
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: Crucifixion? Good. Line on the left, one cross each. (3:640/375.1)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 04 Feb 97 01:21:48
EID:727f 22440aa0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f68f53
REPLY: 1:3800/49 000982e1
PID: GED3 2.5
01 Feb 97 16:07, David Ragland wrote to Martin Goldberg:
DR> Why, yes. As a matter of fact, I do. ;) Look to your own evidence
DR> first though, ok? Specifically, look at why _you_ believe God exists
DR> and let's see how it compares to mine. Don't bother telling me you
DR> _don't_ believe. I won't believe you. I don't believe "anyone" who
DR> says this. I believe they are just being rebellious.
I wanted to make sure you saw this. It would make a wonderful addition to
your quote file, IMO.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: Bootstrapping up, up and away
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:17:57
EID:52b9 22442220
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6b88e
REPLY: 2:250/366.22 32ee5dc9
PID: GED3 2.5
28 Jan 97 14:12, Paul Davis wrote to Al Schroeder:
PD> Ask the Borgia's. They found a way... ;)
PD> Paul
PD> + Origin: Next door to Salman Rushdie (2:250/366.22)
This guy is the third person from England we've had here in the last few
months.
All three have been complete shitheads.
I really expected better from our cousins across the pond.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Ceppa - Holographic
|Date: 04 Feb 97 03:55:33
EID:0764 22441ee0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6b382
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 1733c8d3
PID: GED3 2.5
01 Feb 97 10:52, John Brawley wrote to Mark Kimes:
JB> Read what I've read, examine the experiments that I've examined (even
JB> unto DOING a few yourself), and perhaps I'll credit you with the right
JB> to make such a statement. Don't, and why should _I_ credit _you_
JB> with enough actual understanding to be able to judge? Opinions are
JB> like assholes: everybody's got one. Experiments are like surgeons;
JB> they cut through all the bullshit and uncover things that anyone can
JB> reproduce, with identical results. _Understand_ what you presume to
JB> criticize.
Don't you just *love* how the fact that you criticize his bullshit means
that you must be totally uneducated in quantum physics?
I wonder if he stores his ego in Alaska.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:07:10
EID:aa86 224420e0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6b66f
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f43552
PID: GED3 2.5
02 Feb 97 01:33, Ken Young wrote to Katherine Wintersnight:
KY> And how many cases of torture, rape and murder, can you think of
KY> lately, that occurred in the name of Christianity?
Imagine that you're watching the news one day and learn that I have been
out torturing, raping, and murdering in your name. Would you not do your
best to let it be known that you support none of those actions?
As for how many cases of the above that have occurred lately, how many blacks
were beaten (sometimes to death) just 30 years ago in the South by your
brethren in the sheets?
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:10:20
EID:bde5 22442140
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6b718
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 32f4499c
PID: GED3 2.5
02 Feb 97 03:00, Ken Young wrote to Rod Swift:
re: Branch Davidians
KY> YEah, right.. If you believe that one, I have some nice WHitewater
KY> property to show you.. :) AN investigation, maybe, but hardly a
KY> non-bias one.. The reports that came from the government were full
of
KY> lies.
I trust you have more evidence to support this claim than you have had to
support the claim that your God exists?
KY> And do you really know anything at all about the Michigan Militia?
KY> No? I didn't think so..
Other than the fact that they're pathetic little whiners who wouldn't understand
the Constitution even if Barney sang it to them? No, and I honestly see
no need.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Goodman
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:16:21
EID:3021 22442200
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6b850
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 32f2afd4
PID: GED3 2.5
31 Jan 97 21:52, Jim Goodman wrote to Paul Davis:
PD>> What happened to causality?
JG> Very good question. I'm new here too. I'll keep looking to see
JG> if there are any plausible discussions along these lines in
JG> this Conference. From a purely philosophical viewpoint it
JG> would seem the question deserves serious thought and
JG> consideration.
Causality is only valid where time exists. Time did not exist "before" the
Big Bang.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Domino
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:17:34
EID:240a 22442220
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6b879
REPLY: 1:123/531.0 2f684800
PID: GED3 2.5
03 Feb 97 19:36, Domino wrote to Marilyn Burge:
D >> an art teacher who hates gays and has kicked a couple guys
D >> out of his class numerous times because he mistakenly thought
D >> they were gay, a history teacher who said that people of
D >> Eastern religions worshipped snakes and were evil, and a
D >> principal who stokes on the weekends.)
MB>> Pardon my ignorance, but what does "stoke" mean in this
MB>> context?
D> He smokes marijuana.
Then he "tokes."
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Paul Davis
|Sub: 2 CORINTHIANS 9:13
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:20:16
EID:dbc8 22442280
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6b943
REPLY: 2:250/366.22 32eef343
PID: GED3 2.5
29 Jan 97 03:00, Paul Davis wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Read a science text, fundyboy.
PD> Fundyboy. ROTFL.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is, in all probability,
a fucking duck.
Quack again for us, ok?
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Becke, slave to satan
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:21:30
EID:efe1 224422a0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6b991
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32effa7c
PID: GED3 2.5
29 Jan 97 20:01, Don Martin wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> How many bullshit suicide attempts did you have during your
DW>> absence?
DM> How many would make you feel sorry for him?
They don't make numbers that big (Curry: I don't care).
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:26:26
EID:6bd4 22442340
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6bafe
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32effa7d
PID: GED3 2.5
29 Jan 97 20:18, Don Martin wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> That's one of the past lives she rarely mentions, though.
DM> Isn't it amazing how seldom these reincarnation mavens can
DM> remember being a mule, a cockroach, or a leper in the 13th century?
That's just human nature. What is really amazing is that none of them seem
to have had the thought you just had.
DM> Perhaps only those who have been royalty in every life bother to do
DM> any rmembering. Or is there another explanation?
Hmmm... maybe it's all bullshit? :)
DW>> I still don't know what the hell a nit comb is, though.
DM> A nit is the juvenile form of the louse (hence "nitwit" for a
Yes - Ed cured my lack of education on that point. I knew such things existed.
I just never knew that anyone had bothered naming them.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: God came to stay
|Date: 04 Feb 97 05:00:45
EID:0060 22442800
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6c2f1
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 32effa7e
PID: GED3 2.5
29 Jan 97 20:22, Don Martin wrote to David Worrell:
DM> Whilst on the subject, I note that New York has become about the
DM> 18th state to bring suit against the tobacco companies to recover
DM> damages from tobacco-related illnesses draining the state medcare
DM> funds. The really funny thing is that states actually come out ahead
DM> on smoking overall: they get the cigarette taxes, and a very
DM> significant number of smokers manage to die young without collecting
DM> any state benefits whatsoever. I don't think we'll hear the tobacco
DM> companies offering this morsel as a defense, however.
You might be surprised - they're grasping at every straw within reach as
it is.
I have no pity for in-duh-viduals that sue tobacco companies, though. You've
gotta be a real dumbass to think that inhaling burning fumes (never mind
carcinogens and all the other nasty substances, for the moment) can possibly
be healthy for you.
And I say this as a smoker.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: hypocritical people
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:36:33
EID:f429 22442480
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6bd26
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32f60617
PID: GED3 2.5
Monday February 03 1997 15:36, Dan Ceppa wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> ____________________________________________
DW>> | 1 ONE |
DW>> | .d8888b. .d8888b. |
DW>> | d88P Y88b HOLYSMOKE CLUEPON d88P Y88b |
DW>> | .d88P .d88P |
DW>> | .d88P" good for .d88P" |
DW>> | 888" 888" |
DW>> | 888 One *FREE* Clue 888 |
DW>> | |
DW>> | 888 888 |
DW>> | ONE 1 |
DW>> -+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+---
DC> ROLTF!
DC> So, just when are you going to send us the necessary "Get
DC> out of pedophilia free" card so that ministers can play and
DC> play and play and play some more?
I've been making those for years. The ministers snatch them up so fast,
though, that I haven't had a spare one for the echo.
DC> And, just how do you expect Fingas to know when he needs
DC> a clue?
I can't be expected to do *everything* for the boy.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: native americans
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:38:24
EID:9763 224424c0
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6bdf2
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 32f61a37
PID: GED3 2.5
Monday February 03 1997 17:02, Dan Ceppa wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> I'm not sure I can do that. I don't consider *simple* tool use
DW>> (whether it be pointy sticks as spears by humans, or bent twigs
DW>> by monkeys as termite gathering tools) as technology.
DC> There's a species (following this, Appletoon?) of finches in
DC> the Galapago Island that uses twigs to get ants. Then, to,
DC> there's an other species that has evoloved long
DC> beaks to do similarly. Different niches for different
DC> circumstances.
There is a broad gray area between simple tool use and technology, IMO.
Curry and I simply place the dividing line at different ends of the spectrum.
DC> I think that the difference is using those tools to make
DC> _other_ tools.
Wherever one places the dividing line, you're going to reach a dead end
real quick without fire.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Boom!
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:41:02
EID:a4ff 22442520
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6be78
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 8b27c8b4
PID: GED3 2.5
Saturday February 01 1997 11:34, John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
JB> Although once (when I represented myself as an "atheist"), I thought
JB> "atheist" was the same thing as "anti-theist," I now think atheism and
JB> agnosticism are much more closely related to each other than either
[yadda yadda yadda]
Whatever, John. Feel free to define words as you wish (as if you needed
my permission. Pionts - ROFL). Just don't expect the rest of us to take
you seriously when you do it.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: David Ragland
|Sub: Bacteria & evolution (c).
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:43:11
EID:a7f9 22442560
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6beae
REPLY: 1:3800/49 00188e16
PID: GED3 2.5
Sunday February 02 1997 22:01, David Ragland wrote to David Worrell:
DW DR>> intermediate are consistent with progressive creation and
DW DR>> global deluge theories.
DR> DWWhich ICR tract did you plagiarise this from?
DR> This little waltz is all too familiar.
That was all very nice. Unfortunately, you did not answer my question. Please
do so now.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Goodman
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 04 Feb 97 05:02:59
EID:9a57 22442840
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6c35a
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 32f1f8c4
PID: GED3 2.5
Friday January 31 1997 08:51, Jim Goodman wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Here's a hint, dumbass. What about all the other possible gods?
DW>> Don't you think they're gonna be a little pissed that you spent
DW>> your life worshipping Jehovah?
DW>> The other thing about Pascal's Wager that is flawed is even if one
DW>> only regards Jehovah, Jehovah will be pissed himself if you are on
DW>> worshipping him to "be on the safe side." After all, he'll know yo
DW>> don't really give a shit about him...
DW>> Yeah, I know. I have yet to see any fundy able to get his
DW>> two neurons around the concept I mentioned above, though. I
DW>> like to save the advanced concepts until the student has
DW>> mastered the basics.
JG> Hmmm...You both make good points here. Does the student
JG> ever master the basics? (especially the fundy).
JG> If I were taking a somewhat opposing position I'd say
JG> the first point above about the other gods being pissed
JG> only holds if they actually exist.
This thread dealt with "Pascal's Wager." The wager goes something like this:
It is better to live your life as if a god existed and be wrong than to
live your life as if no god existed and be wrong.
The Christians that use Pascal's Abortion as a defense of their faith always
change the little g's into capital G's. They ignore all the other possible
gods that *could* conceivably exist.
In the event that no god exists, then the person who lived their life as
if one did has probably missed out on a great deal.
Does this answer your objection, or should I try a different tack? It is
almost 5 am here, after all. I can't be expected to be at my best.
JG> The second point about Jehovah being pissed because He
JG> knows you are only worshipping Him to win a wager holds,
JG> though. I can't think of a good critique of that one.
No one else has been able to, either.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Goodman
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 04 Feb 97 04:52:22
EID:2a23 22442680
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 32f6c279
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 32f2ad02
PID: GED3 2.5
Friday January 31 1997 21:40, Jim Goodman wrote to David Worrell:
JG> Yes. Tricky business. Has anyone yet gotten to the bottom of
JG> the mass of alleged "evidence" for the biblical Jehovah
JG> contained in the diverse writings of the Bible? Are the
JG> writers dependable witnesses and/or just passing on
JG> stories from earlier generations?
I've got a simple rule of thumb I use in cases like this.
Mundane claims are supported sufficiently by mundane evidence. Extraordinary
claims require extraordinary evidence.
Would I be justified in believing a city named Jericho once existed simply
because it was mentioned in some ancient literature from the period? To
a certain extent, yes. After all, we do know that humans have tended to
congregate together in cities for quite some time now, and they almost invariably
give these cities names.
Would I be justified in believing that some nomads were able to knock down
Jericho's walls with the help of their god by marching around the walls
a couple of times? No. After all, I've never seen a god. Have you? I've
never seen any event that could only be explained by the existence of a
god. Have you? I've never seen any real, verifiable evidence of a god. Have
you?
Stephen King once wrote a book entitled _'Salem's Lot._ In this book, he
describes parts the geography of the portion of the United States known
as Maine. You can go out and verify his descriptions - they bear a striking
resemblence to the state of Maine. Later in the book, however, he mentions
vampires. Does the fact that he got the descriptions of Maine correct mean
that vampires exist?
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: Satan
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Becke, slave to satan
|Date: 02 Feb 97 10:51:47
EID:16cf 22425660
MSGID: 1:134/67.666 f412d1c5
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 32f03637
Wasn't it 29 Jan 97 when "Lynda Bustilloz" wrote to "Satan"?
So, Lynda... you said...
GM> BTW, what is the answer to my question. Whne will you choose
GM> to be free and not a slave to satan?
LB> Evidence for the existance of satan?
Sa> We are loath to come to the assistance of somebody as