God Damned Fundies!
|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: treatise
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:921a 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014928d
MH>However, given the snide tone of this post and others, it's obvious
MH>you made up your mind and nailed it shut long ago. Therefore, I'm not
MH>going to waste any significant amount of *my* time arguing with you
MH>about it.
Does this mean that you, contrary-wise have an open mind, amenable to
change in regard to your religious beliefs? What evidence would convince
you to relinquish your theism?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
My greatest fear: that future generations will, for some reason, refer to
me as an "optimist."
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Roland
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:f929 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 00149297
In a message dated 02-13-96 Roland wrote to Anthony Grigor-Scott:
> Since I am a Christian, it is difficult for me to even speculate that
> of made an error. But i am also very Scientificaly minded.
> I do not think the Carbon-14 dating method is perfect....However i do
> that it is normally `close enough'. And these test have shown that th
> large gap in time between man and dinosaurs.
No, not Carbon-14 dating. Your conclusion is correct, however. Just not
for the reason given.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
"If you don't have a choice, then you don't have a problem"
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Children
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:816e 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492a0
> SA> In all fairness to those who pay to move our messages, I suggest
> SA> that instead, you focus on making the pictures available via
> SA> regular announcements.
>
>
> Styx,
>
> I'm sure that the missing children and parents' of these children will
> understand that an avenue to re-unite them has been cut off due to fis
> responsibility.
>
> A buck is obviously worth more than a child.
This ranks right up there with the best fundy sophistry.
> > Styx,
>
> > Look into the eyes of nc1011, and tell me that you don't
> > want her to be found.
>
> SA> I want her to be found, but I do not believe in the concept
> SA> of capitalizing on captive audiences as you have just done.
>
> You mean you don't like your conscience tweeked?
What does his conscience have to do with it?
>
> > Hey! I know I'm rotten, I'm a Democrat.
Judging from your posts to Styx, your problem appears to be a willingness
to engage in unethical rhetoric.
>
> SA> No, what's rotten is asking without waiting for my response.
>
> It was six posts of one girl. You will survive the insult.
>
> Why do you want other's like her to go unaccounted for because you got
> nose bent?
Amazing. If you wish to persuade someone to your point of view maybe you
should avoid such dishonesty. The logical fallacy you engage in here is
called the "interrogation fallacy", aka the "complex question." That is,
your question above assumes a "yes" answer to another question you never
asked, namely: "Styx, do you want others like her to go unaccounted for
because you got nose bent?"
Another example of this I'm sure you will recognize is the "have you
stopped beating your wife" question.
Do you have your house, car, and place of work covered with these pictures
you wish to post? If you should refuse my request to past said pictures
over every square inch of your home, car, etc, the very same cheap shots
you toss at Styx could apply (and be applied) equally to you.
Clean up your act.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Genealogies never consider the handsome neighbor
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Re: Children
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:8ba5 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492a8
In a message dated 02-16-96 George Rudzinski wrote to Styx Allum:
> SA> Being a democrat merely follows that concept faithfully.
> SA> Think about that while you ponder your tax forms, and how
> SA> people take from your paycheck to finance programs without
> SA> asking you if you support them or not.
I hope you aren't implying that Republicans have done otherwise.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Jesus is coming...quick look busy!
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Missing Children
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:5535 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492b0
In a message dated 02-16-96 George Rudzinski wrote to Jon Vandenberg:
> Having a big mouth is easy, knowing what you are talking about require
> more effort.
You said it, not me.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
With all my bills do I have to pay ATTENTION too???
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: Religion Debate?
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:dcd0 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492b9
In a message dated 02-15-96 Karen Davis wrote to Michael Hardy:
> MH> You do realize that in saying Jesus didn't exist, you're contrad
> MH> 99 percent of all historians? Even those who insist he wasn't di
> MH> don't deny he existed.
>
> I said as he is portrayed in the Bible. And I believe your statement i
> incorrect. Any historian who said so has been duped.
>
> MH> I hope you have a pretty good reason to make that claim.
Funny. I was going to say the very same thing in regard to your 99% of
historians claim.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Baby taglines.... Are they called tagpoles?
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Keith Fletcher
|Sub: Re: JIM STAAL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:11f6 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492c1
In a message dated 02-15-96 Keith Fletcher wrote to Judith Bandsma:
> Your comment about the conservatives keeping women from getting the
> financial backing to run for office isn't completly true. The Congress
> of the U.S. for forty years prior to the 1994 enlightenment was
> controled by the democrat party and was quite often very liberal.
Your comment that the democrats controlled Congress "for forty years prior
to the 1994 enlightenment [sic]..." is false, as is what you would like
us
to infer it means (which is something to the effect that: demos controlled
congress, therefore the democrat political agenda was advanced at the
expense of the republican political agenda, ergo democrats are
responsible, not republicans).
Your comment that the democrats in congress over that period were "quite
often very liberal" is also false.
I suggest you research the party affilation of both houses over that
period (hint: pay particular attention to the 80's). I further suggest you
investigate the meaning of the political slang term: "Boll Weevil" as it
relates to congressional democrats.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Bad Spellers of the world untie
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: hi
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:4a63 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492ca
In a message dated 02-13-96 Andrew Masten wrote to Brian Kolacy:
> Just out of curiosity, if you think Christ is no more that a fictit
> character, why the concern with what Christians believe??
Because many Christians, believing they have the one true religion and
thus, God on their side, feel they have the right to dictate the behavior
of non-believers, so to be in accordance with their religious dogma. As
justification for this, they cite the word of God (aka their religious
beliefs).
Because of this, their beliefs, and whatever evidence they claim to have
for them, becomes an issue.
In short, these Christians _make_ their beliefs an issue.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Has that file been saved? No, but we're praying for it.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Re: Staal also has great
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:050d 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492d3
In a message dated 02-14-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Fredric Rice:
> Sure I was, maybe I should make myself a little more specific? Which
> church conducted the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the witch hunts?
Ken, at the time of the Crusades there was only one Christian church. The
Inquistion was conducted by the Catholic church. Witch hunts were a mixed
bag, church-wise. Did you have a point to make?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
I don't mind straight people as long as they act gay.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Re: Staal probably also b
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:b4a1 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492db
In a message dated 02-14-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Fredric Rice:
> Sorry Fredric, but nowhere in the statement above did I admit that
> sacrifice my own Son. Only that if God asked me to kill my son that I
> it as a sacrifice.
That's damning enough, Ken. It isn't too surprising that you were unaware
your admission demonstrates the situational ethics inherent in your
religious dogma. To you and your ilk, murder can be bad or good, depending
upon who does (or who "requests") it.
A "morality" that says "taking an innocent life is ok - if my God tells
me
to" is no morality at all.
Don't you get it? An immoral act is immoral no matter who does it (or
"requests" it).
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Q. Why is the universe here? A. Where else would it be?
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Re: Staal and Ken: Hitler
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:86d6 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492e5
In a message dated 02-14-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Fredric Rice:
> Shows how much you really know Fred, the church or faith that I fo
> one that has been persecuted and killed by the so called Christians fo
And just what "church or faith" might that be? Or would you prefer to keep
it a secret? After reading some of your posts I can understand why you
might.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Will you come quietly, or shall I use ear plugs?
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Re: Staal and Ken: Homoph
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:8126 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492ee
In a message dated 02-14-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Fredric Rice:
> Sorry Fred, you've yet to prove that my fellow Christians hated Jews.
> meant Hitler, sorry, but no matter how much he claimed it, he was not
> Christian.
Perhaps not. But then neither was Moses. Do you believe that Moses was a
prophet of your god?
>
> I don't hate fags. And no I would not love to start murdering gays. If
> murdered them they might not have a chance to get saved. And sorry aga
> Hitler was not a fellow Christian of mine.
Maybe, maybe not, but he _was_ raised as a Christian and was a fellow
theist of yours, and seems to have had the same situational ethics as you:
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the almighty Creator.
By
warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lords work." -- A. Hitler
before the Reichstag 1939
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:c25b 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 001492f7
In a message dated 02-13-96 Brad Jackson wrote to J.J. Hitt:
> My words may be mixed up and that is ok, but I know one that his words
> are never wrong, JESUS.
Are Jesus and the Biblical God one and the same, in your opinion?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
God made me an atheist--who am I to question His divine will
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: Luke
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:8dfa 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014930b
In a message dated 02-13-96 Michael Hardy wrote to Andrew Masten:
> The evidence that Luke wrote the gospel which bears his name is that >
it has always been thought he did,
Two points: first, this is not evidence. To cite it as such constitutes
a
logical fallacy known as argumentum ad numeram: that a number of people
believe a thing does not equate with correctness.
Second, I doubt you can find a Biblical scholar who would agree with you.
Certainly the consensus of Bible scholars is at odds with your claim.
> and there is absolutely no evidence
> that anyone else did, or even claimed to.
That you are unaware of any evidence against your belief is not evidence
in support of your belief. To cite it as such constitutes a logical
fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantiam: that is, claiming that
something is true simply because it has not been proved false. The fact
is no one knows who wrote the Gospels
>
> While it's true that we cannot prove it, it's also true that there
> is no good reason to doubt it.
Yes there is (see above).
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Politeness is asking a beggar if he'll take a check
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: RE: HI
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:b0f0 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 00149313
In a message dated 02-13-96 AL SCHROEDER wrote to HECTOR PLASMIC:
> HP> Gee, Al, there's a simple explanation staring at you here. Perha
> HP> gods ever interfered with history. Perhaps that's all in the hum
> HP> imagination, much as the god-like computer in "I Have No Mouth an
> HP> Must Scream" was in Harlan Ellison's imagination, eh?
>
> That's a possibility, Hec. It's also a possibility you are dreaming a
> this in a coma after a car accident ten years ago and nothing that ha
> happened since is real.
That the two things are possible doesn't render them equally probable.
There is plentiful evidence (historical, sociological, and scientific)
that humans are not only capable of creating myths and believing in them
absolutely, but that they are _inclined_ to do this. Whereas I think,
therefore I am - not a figment of Hec's dream-state.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
I tried to drown my problems, but they can swim!
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:22c4 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014931d
In a message dated 02-13-96 AL SCHROEDER wrote to ROB BURCHAM:
> RB> Assuming the story is somewhat accurate, does the behavior
> RB> of Jesus rule out delusion? If your megalomania is that of
> RB> a loving and sacrificing god, you're compelled to play the
> RB> part. (See: Buddhist monks who set themselves on fire)
>
> Two answers: many have noted that the God expressed in the views of J
> is more loving and compassionate than you might expect given His trac
> record in the Old Testament. Even Paul mentions the difference betwee
> living under the Law and under Grace. So if He were just PLAYING the
> of the OT Jehovah, then He certainly put His own spin on the part. He
> only took the part, but extended and built upon it, to the point wher
Which is it that captures the attention of people in the fields of
entertainment, politics, literature, art, science, etc., etc.: That which
is traditional or that which is new and different?
> be led to the slaughter, as it were, but He didn't hang HIMSELF. In f
> from MY point of view, I see something rather ironic. In practically
> other mythology, and in most of my religion, God judges man. This is
> only regligous story I can think of where a God submitted to the judg
> of Man.
How do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus was judged by Man(kind)?
> No other god played so magnificently fair with mankind.
Wow. I think this fails on several levels I am afraid. If your god is the
creator of all things, is all powerful and all knowing, then isn't he
responsible for all things? He knew exactly what would occur even before
he created his little human playthings. Submitting yourself to "judgement"
when you knew beforehand what the outcome would be - indeed, wrote the
script, directed, produced, and was the star of the show - isn't what
I
would call playing fair. More like playing with dolls.
And considering that Jesus is also supposedly the self-same God of the
Bible, if we take his actions as a whole, the most remarkable attribute
I
see is his magnificient UN-fairness to mankind.
How many times did he harden Pharaoh's heart after Pharaoh was willing to
let the Jews leave? Then he punishes the Egyptian people, over and over
again because Pharaoh wouldn't allow the Jews to leave? What kind of
sadistic mind would play such a sick game: stripping Pharaoh of his free
will when he was willing to do what your god wanted, and then bringing
down ever increasing scourges upon the innocent population of Egypt - as
punishment for what your god forced the Pharaoh to do?
Fairness??
Your god kills the unborn in the womb, babes in arms, and punishes 4
generations of offspring - all for the "sins" of the parents. He invokes
horrific deaths for children for trivial deeds, allows a long list of the
most painful of tragedies to befall his most faithful follower - just to
impress the "prince of darkness;" he punishes the weak and the helpless,
shuns the handicapped, while his favorites get away with murder -
literally.
Fairness? Your god recognizes no human rights at all. Might makes right
in
the Bible and guess who has the might? Your God favors one group of his
"children" over his others. What would you think of a parent who did that?
Your god sets down rules of behavior and then proceeds to violate them
himself - time and again. "Don't do as I do, do as I say" seems to be a
very common theme.
Your god tolerates, condones, and even encourages slavery throughout the
Bible. He even "sells" his chosen people into slavery when they have
irritated him.
What does your Bible say is the reason women experience painful
childbirth? Because of Eve, isn't it? Fairness, Al? Perhaps we possess
different dictionaries.
I wish it were as simple as that.
Be assured that my preceeding mini-rant doesn't begin to exhaust the list
of equally baleful examples that can be found in the Bible. That they seem
to so out-number and overwhelm the positive and uplifting teachings is not
an observation I make with glee.
Having read enough books, magazines, and etc for several lifetimes myself,
I can appreciate - and respect - your own professed consumption of the
written word. Yet at the same time I must tell you that you seem to have
a
cinemascope-sized blind spot when it comes to the Bible.
This is not meant as an insult. (though you would be well within your
rights to take it as one, I suppose) In fact it is a conclusion I find
difficult to accept. How is it possible for you and I to (apparently)
come to such wildly divergent opinions about the same material?
That may sound like a naive question. But it is not for lack of experience
that I ask it. It is a topic that, for more than 20 years, has rarely
been far from my mind.
I know that many Christians feel that the hostility they get from atheists
is analogus to the hostility a latent homosexual directs toward gays
(reaction formation is the psychological term, I believe). One can find
much here to reenforce that opinion: I mean, what else could explain so
much over-the-top vituperation, right?
Well speaking for myself (and maybe some unknown-to-me number of other
atheists), contrary to the above, I am ready and willing to believe, given
sufficent evidence (I don't ask for anything fancy - the same evidence
available to almost everyone in the Bible - from Adam to Paul - will do).
Do that and you will make a believer out of me in a nonce.
Nor do I have a problem with saying that sometimes I envy Christians
their ability to worship and believe in their god.
So no, whatever hostility I might display does not derive from any fear
in me that "God" might exist.
On the other hand, if the god you show me turns out to be Biblically 'as
advertised,' he'd better have some pretty damn persuasive arguments if he
wants me to worship him (though I doubt there is anything he could tell
me
that would begin to justify his Biblical behavior, assuming he would even
condescend to persuade me). It would be a safe bet that, you, Al
Schroeder, would sooner worship Satan then I would worship the morally
impoverished deity found in the "Good Book."
I contend the following:
Far from being an objective moral standard of right and wrong, the
Biblical God provides no standard, save one: blind obedience to God.
If humans did not exist, the concept of morality would be meaningless.
All true moral principles have derived from empathy toward human need. For
example if you ask me for a glass of water, my decision whether or not to
give it to you is morally neutral - UNLESS you are dying of thirst. To
then refuse you would be immoral. What is the difference between the two
situations? Only one thing: human need.
Christianity teaches that acts have no intrinsic moral value in and of
themselves. One day their god will say "Thou shalt not kill", the next day
he orders the slaughter of 10's of thousands of innocent mothers and
children (Numbers 31)
Therefore Christians are and must be moral relativists. They feel they are
accountable - not to their fellow man - but to their god only. (thus if
their god doesn't exist, they are accountable to no one)
---
I think I have solid evidence for all of the above, but feel free to
challenge any you feel incorrect. I have no wish to misstate anyone's
position on an issue.
Now if you are still awake, I have a couple of questions for you:
In Genesis 18:25 Abraham asks God: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth
do right?" My question is, if the basis of morality derives from your god,
what makes your god moral?
Why do you worship "God?" Is it because you feel he is worthy of praise
and adoration? Or because he is an omnipotent being? Or..?
Ciao
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Change babies and politicians frequently - for the same reasons
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: EVIDENCE
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:52:00
EID:fc01 20559680
MSGID: 1:215/130 00149326
In a message dated 02-14-96 AL SCHROEDER wrote to ANDREW MASTEN:
> KB> The alternative view suggests a much more rational approach: "We
> KB> do not know that there are other forms of life even possible.
> KB> However, until we demonstrate that they *cannot* exist, we must
> KB> admit the possibility that they do, or may, exist."
> AM>
> AM> Okay, until you can demonstrate that God does not exist, you must
> AM> admit the possibility that He does, or may, exist. Is that more
> AM> rational?
>
> I was WONDERING if you would notice that. That in their criticism
> you they are giving much more latitude for unevidenced types of life,
> then demanding an "evidenced mechanism" for a diety.
This is apples and A-bombs. We can see the great diversity of life on
earth. "Unevidenced types of life" are conceivable. They can be speculated
upon as to their structure and evolution. I have yet to see a Christian
attempt to make such a hypothesis about his god.
Not carbon or si
> or methane life, but life in radically different conditions, say with
> any heavy elements or any stars shining. TRULY different life, much
> unfamiliar than what we usually encounter in science ficiton.
But "life" nonetheless. The fact is, the Christian God would have to be
orders of magnitude more unfamilar and incomprehensible then any such
speculation on alien life I've ever seen. The Christian god is one of a
kind, unique. Life is not. The Christian god would be unbounded by any
natural law or force. Alien life would not.
Now, if you wish to forward a hypothesis on the nature and structure of
your deity as others have done regarding alien life-forms, I for one would
be very interested in reading it.
Bye,
ELLIOTT
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Poetry isn't obscene.......it's per verse..!!
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ABORT THEM ALL! (Then eat Staal's remains.)
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:47:08
EID:f54d 205505e0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
J.J. Hitt > Sue Armstrong : ABORT THEM ALL! (Then eat Staal's remains.)
SA> (As an aside, I'd laugh like a hyaena if it were found
SA> Swaggart contracted AIDS from his little plaything. It
SA> would just be such poetic justice ..)
JH> Unfortunately there was no danger of that.
JH> He used a condom even when he was only masturbating.
JH> (No, I have no idea WHY.)
It was because he had no idea where he'd been.
JH> Memento Mori.
I'm sorry to hear that you're dead. Can I be one of your profits,
er, prophets when you arise?
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:55:50
EID:3271 205506e0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Dawn Kleuser > All : ANGELS....
DK> Hello, Everyone!
Hi, Dawn!
DK> I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like
DK> to hear any stories anyone has about them.
I'm not a firm believer, though there are some fundamentally stupid
Wiccans out there that do do odd things about Angels, such as
devising Angel Traps to keep Angels from messing with them (modeled
after the Native American Dream Catcher) and such stuff.
DK> No doubt there is a whole slew of skeptics out there who would
DK> love to attack me on this subject, but I'm not lookin' for a fight.
Why would they love to attack you? My experience is that they
prefer to attack the Angels directly. With claw hammers and bug
spray. So don't be afraid, just don't dress up like an Angel or
anything.
DK> Just wanna swap Angel experiences.
Most of what I've got is recipes . . . would those be okay?
DK> Please respond if you'd like to share, and I will also.
DK> Anyone having a question for me on the subject, please ask away
Is that rayon that they wear, or polyester? And do they get music
lessons or is it just a lot of bad air-harp crapola?
DK> - but keep in mind that I will not be drawn into an argument
DK> over the existence of Angels.
Wouldn't think of it.
... Yahweh, the only God too persnickety to ever get a Goddess...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: Re: Re: American Atheists
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:cfe2 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 001890c0
(On 02-17-96 Christopher Baker replied to Brian Kolacy)
C B>In a message dated: 15 Feb 96, Brian Kolacy stated:
CB>BK> No prob. I got an "official" letter today, forwarded from my
CB>BK> previous address. 'Tis not much more informative, but I'd be
CB>BK> happy to type it at you, if you would like;).
CB>please do. i have received no communication of any kind.
CB>thanks.
OK...
[From a letter dated 1-10-96]
...On Sept. 4th, 1995 the family left Austin, indicating that they had
businessto take care of. They closed the Headquarters and told
employees that they would be laid off for a few days. On Sept. 18th
they asked Spike Tyson ["Spike, as previously discussed], then the Forum
Coordinator of the cable TV show, to go to the HQ and continue to put
out the show.
In phone conversations I [Ellen Johnson] had with them during that
time they did not explain the nature of their trip but they expected to
be finished soon and were anxious to get to New York to picket the Pope
with the rest of us. They said many times that they were all well. I
spoke to each of the family members and they all appeared to be doing
fine. We haven't heard from them since the end of September and do not
know where they are.
The Headquarters is still open with Spike Tyson as the only staff
member. It is the intention of the Board of Directors to keep the
organization operating to the best of our abilities. We will be filling
the backlog of book and product orders next month. We will be puitting
the "DIAL-THE-ATHEIST" back on-line as well as the American Atheist
bulletin board service [I think they've changed their minds about this
last]. We are working on our own WEB page for the Internet and will
continue to express the views of American Atheists on pertinent state-
church and Atheist issues via the fax-net.
Spokespersons for the American Atheists are still making regular
media appearances. A few of the DIAL-AN-ATHEIST telephone lines are
still going and a few other outreach programs are still operating such
as the Staten Island, New York cable TV show "The Atheist Viewpoint"
which will soon air in Rhode Island and in Manhattan, New York.
I have been elected interim president so that the board of
directors can operate with a full complement of officers. Henry Schmuck
[I wonder if this guy knows that it's possible to legally change one's
name:)] has been elected interim secretary and Chris Allen as interim
treasurer. Since taking office we have noted that all corporate
property and funds have been accounted for. All bills are being paid.
...The rest is the usual sign off, and request for donations.
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Cthulhu loves you! (for dinner)
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/10
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: treatise
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:728c 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 001890cc
(On 02-16-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
MH> MH> That is an immeasureable sacrifice. The amount of time he
MH> MH>spent suffering physical pain is absolutely irrelevant.
MH> BK> Sorry Mike, such an ephemeral "sacrifice" won't cut it
MH> BK> here...Spending time on a cross is the *only* thing relevant.
MH> BK> Kind of unimpressive, when you consider the pain *other* humans
MH> BK> have gone through.
MH> Since you still miss the point entirely after having it explained to
MH> you, I leave you to your fate.
Your point seems to be, that Christ died for sins. I don't sin, so
someone dying for it is absolutely meaningless. There have been much
nobler causes for people to die for.
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... You mean they eat their god?? Ewww, gross...
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: dates
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:7d31 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 001890d7
(On 02-17-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
M H>-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> BK> The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia is licensed from Columbia
MH> BK> University Press. Copyright - 1995 by Columbia University Press.
MH> BK> All rights reserved.<<
MH> BK> Hmmm...the math I come up with says the first Gospel was written
MH> BK> 40-44 years after Jesus' death. Must be the new math, eh? It
MH> BK> *certainly* puts you in the category of liberal daters (with
MH> BK> regards to when your myths were written)
MH> It doesn't put me in that group. Dating the gospels is conjecture,
MH>not provable fact. Scholars can examine the available evidence and
MH>offer educated guesses, but they are just guesses.
And you seem to have skewed your guesses...
MH> I would date all three synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) before
MH> a.d. 60 -- for reasons which I can detail if you like -- with John
MH> being an unknown. Whenever John was written, though, I think it was
MH> written by an eyewitness or the student of an eyewitness -- again
MH>for reasons I can detail if you want.
Why bother? I don't think anyone would consider you a reputable source.
MH> I have my opinion -- based on analyzing the arguments used by
MH>various scholars to defend their positions -- and I can defend my
MH>opinion. I can't, however, prove I'm right, and neither can anyone
MH>else. That's why your saying that a given gospel must have been
MH>written in a given year because some authority says so demonstrates
MH>that you really haven't thought the matter through.
No. It just shows that a more *reputable*, and current, authority
disagrees with your statements. Now, I'm much more liable to agree with
a respected authority, then with somone as biased on the matter as
you;).
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... If Michael had half a brain, his ass would be lopsided.
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: death
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:d26d 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 001890ee
(On 02-17-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
MH> BK> [SNAP!] Psst! You don't have to *explain* belief, Mike. Try
MH> BK> explaining David Koresh's belief of divinity, and his followers
MH> BK> belief in him as well. Maybe there's "evidence" for it?:)
MH> Koresh's "divinity" is based only on his claim to be divine, and his
MH> follower's belief that he was telling the truth. Christianity is
MH>based on *events* that happened and were witnessed.
Witnessed by any reputable historians? Or a few authors of a coupla
books of the New Testament? If it's a case of the latter, and the
authors were claiming that "thousands beleived it"...well, if *I* were
starting a religion, I sure as hell would make that claim to...
MH> BK> On the other hand, we have the *other* religions
MH> BK> of the world. *Clearly* unevidenced, else Mikey would believe
MH> BK> in them. I guess that makes Moslems, Jews, Pagans, et al., a
MH> BK> bunch of silly fucks, while *you* are truly to be respected for
MH> BK> your intelligent choice.
MH> Well, Jews are right until they get to the J-question.
I guess this means you won't admit that other religions are equally as
valid as yours, eh? So much for your claims of being open minded...
MH> By the way, if you think you're insulting me by calling me Mikey, I
MH> just want you to know that my mother and two of my good friends call
MH>me that. Also, some try to call me Mickey, but that's the name I
MH>went by -- voluntarily -- in college, so several old friends still
MH>call me that as well.
MH> You can continue to use such names if you like; just understand that
MH> they come across as affectionate nicknames to me, not insults. :)
Ok, Mikey...You'll note that I've called your "Mike, Mikey, and
Michael". 'Tis more for variation than anything else. Hey, you could
call me "Bri" if you wanted...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice.
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: suff'rin
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:832e 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 001890f9
(On 02-17-96 Michael Hardy replied to Karen Davis)
M H>-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> MH> But it's not. What's significant is WHAT God did -- taking all
MH> MH> the sin of everyone who ever threw themselves on God's mercy,
MH> MH> or ever would, into his holy, righteous self, and expiating it
MH> MH> -- taking it on himself so that we could be free of it.
MH> KD> Huh? This is the worst circular logic I have ever heard. If you
MH> KD> need to forgive someone, you do so. No sacrifice is necessary.
MH> For a perfectly holy God to forgive sin, something has to give. God
MH> chose to bear the burden himself for those who would allow him to.
MH> It is an act of extreme mercy and love. Nothing circular about it.
Only partially merciful, it seems. Why didn't Jesus die for *all* sins?
MH> I don't think of it as *punishment* which God poured out on Jesus. I
MH> think of it rather as God taking sin into himself and purging it.
MH>God suffered in doing this because sin to holiness is like acid on
MH> the skin. But the suffering was a consequence of his opening the
MH>door to grace, not gratuitous pain.
Why did Jesus feel forsaken on the cross, then? Must have been feeling
some pain, perhaps?
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Birds gather in flocks; morons gather in congregations.
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:28af 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 00189104
(On 02-17-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
M H>-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> M H> Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate
MH> Christians MH>for using shareware offline readers for more than 30
MH> MH>days without registering.
MH> MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down
MH> MH>equally hard on Frederick Leff.
MH> BK> 'Tis a different situation, actually. Fred doesn't have a book
MH> BK> that tells him what his ethics should be. That old 'Thous shalt
MH> BK> not steal" thing wouldn't be as effective.
MH> Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
No, but we are exceedingly good at jokes;)
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... You mean they eat their god?? Ewww, gross...
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: CENSUS
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:e2e9 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 00189111
(On 02-17-96 Michael Hardy replied to Hector Plasmic)
MH> DC> Seems that the Chinese has a rather developed astronomy at the
MH> DC> time, as well as many other groups in the middle east. Strange,
MH> DC> they fail to mention that "point of light".
MH> HP> ROFL! And Mikey wonders why he's called a fundy. He happens to
MH> HP> be a literalist, as his clinging to every detail of this silly
MH> HP> virgin birth myth demonstrates.
MH> I never said the "star" would be visible to everyone. I'm talking
MH>about a flashlight and Dan's talking about a searchlight. What I'm
MH>saying is that God might have created a beacon just for the Magi,
MH>not a new star in the sky for all the world to see.
Hmmm...thats novel.
MH> And, I'm not INSISTING that it's true. I fully admit the story of
MH>the virgin birth could be wholly or partly mythical. I just don't
MH>see any point in insisting it MUST be.
What about the story of the resurrection? Could that be wholly
mythical? What about all the stories of "miracles". Could they be
completely mythical? Why are you so ready to disassociate yourself with
the virgin birth idea? *I* know...it must be more *allegory*...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... "Ah. So you're a waffle man!" -- Talkie Toaster
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:903e 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 0018911b
(On 02-17-96 Michael Hardy replied to Masochistic Maiden)
M H>-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Norbert Sykes <=-
MH> NS> they differentiate between them? In the passage cited, there is
MH> NS> a listing of a lot of different flying things...if there was a
MH> NS> word that just denoted flying things, then who put in all the
MH> NS> extra names, etc.? I'm willing to bet a year off of Jim Staal's
MH> NS> life
MH> MM> It seems that it would not be too difficult to resolve this
MH> MM> question if one went to the library, got a Hebrew translation
MH> MM> with English available... A Triaglot if possible and simply
MH> MM> looked the passage in question up and saw what Hebrew words were
MH> MM> used for flying things.
MH> According to Strong's Hebrew Concordance, the Hebrew word in
MH>question can be translated as larger creatures that fly. (As opposed
MH>to insects.) Apparently, English translators felt "bird" was the
MH>closest they could come to expressing the concept in one word.
So, what we have here is a substandard translation, eh? Why would
English translators limit themselves to one word? Now, is this Bible
better or worse than other Bibles...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... The only time I open my mouth is to change feet!! Michael Hardy
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: The Light
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:ce9f 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 00189129
(On 02-17-96 Michael Hardy replied to Alan Hess)
MH> AH> I'm not a believer. However, the Original Testament is
MH> AH> considered the Word of God by believers - the add-on testaments
MH> AH> are the words of men. As such, they're no different than any
MH> AH> other stories written by men.
MH> Christians would disagree with you. So why do you claim to hold this
MH> position if you don't believe in the God revealed in Hebrew
MH>scripture? You should be saying that both testaments are words of
MH>men.
Well, they are, aren't they? "All Bibles are man made" as the saying
goes. The contention is that the Bible is "inspired by God". But, then
again, all books of religion are. If I was writing a book on which gods
to worship, I sure as hell would say that the words I wrote were
"inspired by the gods"...there's no way to contest that. Now, if your
book of myths is true, I want a signed notarized letter from your gods
saying that it is such, delivered in person. Are your gods capable of
this?
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Dead Gods! Onna Stick! Get 'em while they're hot!
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 19 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:bb41 2053a380
MSGID: 1:272/99 00189134
(On 02-16-96 Michael Hardy replied to Brian Kolacy)
M H>-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> BK> But Michael, Ronald Reagan is a well known, well documented
MH> BK> person in an age of Enlightenment. Jesus, in his day, was not
MH> BK> well known at all...When we add the fact that Paul started the
MH> BK> religion in a place *other* than where Jesus lived, where *no
MH> BK> one* had heard of him, in a time where such supernatural events
MH> BK> were fairly commonplace, and your analogy fails miserably...Try
MH> BK> again?
MH> Evidence, please, that Paul "started" Christianity, as opposed to
MH> helping spread what already existed?
Well, there doesn't seem to be a tremendous amount of Christians in the
area where the stories allegedly took place. Sounds to me like no one
would beleive the stories Paul was telling, because they were esily
denied by the locals, so he had to move to a new location to sell his
snake oil;).
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... You mean they eat their god?? Ewww, gross...
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 20 Feb 96 03:28:44
EID:c5f4 20541b80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3129400e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3127fd9b
18 Feb 96 23:33, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> I just wanted to tell you that I've never had a cavity, either.
PS> How special for you.
DW>> See what happens when you don't like the Beatles?
PS> Yes, one retains one's sense of taste.
Doesn't help you much when you have no teeth and must eat baby-food, though,
does it? :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 20 Feb 96 03:43:51
EID:f4ed 20541d60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312943a1
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 625040f3
18 Feb 96 01:45, J.J. Hitt wrote to Steve Rose:
JH> This is the guy who accused David Worrell,
I just wanted to thank you for spelling my name correctly. It means a lot
to me. :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Thomas Biniasz
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 20 Feb 96 03:53:08
EID:3c9f 20541ea0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312945d5
17 Feb 96 21:51, Thomas Biniasz wrote to Thomas Delcano:
TB> Just what is your point?
We can't tell for sure, but it was probably to tell you to learn to fucking
quote the messages to which you are replying.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Home page (you care, I know you do).
|Date: 20 Feb 96 03:27:45
EID:39ee 20541b60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31293fe3
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3127fda3
18 Feb 96 23:33, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Great. My whole *page* is fucked, now. The background image (a
PS> I hadn't noticed. It looked fine when I connected to it a couple of
PS> days ago.
Curry pointed out my problem to me soon after I posted the above. Goddamned
Unix candy-assed case sensitive bullshit.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Mike Hamilton
|Sub: Many gods
|Date: 20 Feb 96 03:33:21
EID:c9f0 20541c20
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31294168
REPLY: 1:3648/101.5 3125f4ed
17 Feb 96 15:17, Mike Hamilton wrote to Kevin D. Mckenzie:
MH> post that you place no faith in Christ. I am totally dedicated to Him.
MH> Did you have a comment or a question I can help you with?
Sure do. Got any evidence that your God exists outside the imagination?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: LES WILCOX
|Sub: Who cares?
|Date: 20 Feb 96 03:35:27
EID:b98f 20541c60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312941aa
REPLY: 1:147/48 3640a133
18 Feb 96 00:47, LES WILCOX wrote to DAN CEPPA:
LW> Would you like to make a $50.00 donation to the ministry so I can
LW> register this copy of Wave Rider?
It is not Dan's responsibility to register your software for you, hypocrite.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 20 Feb 96 02:04:40
EID:cbf6 20541080
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa939
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 625136b6
JH> Ed Wood was the producer/director of some of the worst
JH> schlock-horror films ever released.
JH> His work has been enjoying a cult following over the last
JH> decade or so. A case of being sooooo damn bad you're good.
The Shaggs of cinema, if you will?
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Religious Experience
|Date: 20 Feb 96 02:05:42
EID:2ea0 205410a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa93a
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6253bca9
RB> Maybe Pro-life should change it's name to
RB> Pro-overpopulation.
JH> Don't forget pro-poverty, pro-illiteracy and pro-abuse.
JH> Amd pro-infant mortality due to inadequate pre- and post-natal care
JH> (it's not a concern of theirs if the child dies outside the womb).
What's important is that as many women as possible should have
to experience all the joys of labor--in order to teach them
not to enjoy sex.
... Send lawyers, guns and money...the shit has hit the fan.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Buttpimple Satanist FAILS again.
|Date: 20 Feb 96 02:09:05
EID:3bef 20541120
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa93b
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62578041
A> The devils accomplish their work in many ways, not choosing only
A> one path to accomplishing the will of the summoner. It is likely
A> that they also sought out to damage some of JJ's friends, in
A> order to damage him emotionally, as well as performing that
A> which I had wished done.
Those devils sure did a bang-up job of it. Assuming you would
call me friend, I must state for the record that the fallout
of Asmodiddley's curse on the Friends Of JJ has resulted in the
last three weeks of my life: I've gotten a new job; a complete
flip from a black-cloud depression to a nicely energetic high--
and, oh yes--got my ashes hauled for the first time in well
over two years.
JH> OH WOE! I am emotionally damaged! OH WOE!
I'm commiserating with you, oh, infernally-doomed compadre.
Oh yes--I also had two encounters with John Q. Law in two
towns which amounted to bupkus. Then again, maybe Satan
really _doesn't_ work with the cops.
A> I believe this may be the case, as I had invoked Satan a second
A> time in the closing, to help ensure the cooperation of those I
A> summoned, and to add a little strength.
Oh, did I mention that I haven't really needed to buy a beer
in a month, as the place where I'm working makes it all, and
pretty much lets us line up at the bar after hours practically
for free? Plus, a couple of other perks which make for a very
laid-back work environment...
A> It is quite possible that His Infernal Majesty was tired of it
A> all, and just struck the first opportunity he saw, to ensure some
A> measure of success.
JH> Maybe he should have called a last minute time out. Or a specialist.
JH> This Infernal Majesty guy just aint got what it takes.
Hey look, anytime you want to thumb your nose at one of Satan's
minions again, just let me know if I'm going to suffer anymore
of this terrible repercussion. I'll buy a lottery ticket for once.
Maybe I should go gunning for a Satanic Curse of my very own.
Who knows? It might pay off with some committment-oriented nympho-
maniac who drives a Mercedes SE-series with a trunkful of hashbricks
falling into my arms, thus causing my writer's block to dissolve.
"C'mon Satan--it's yer ol' buddy Rob here. I'm a-DARIN' ya to
fuck with me! C'mon, you sandwich-spread-can-posing, pointy-
stick-brandishing, red-spandex-tights-wearing, goatee-stroking
punk! Lay some heavy shit on ME! Hell, I'll even start voting
Republican again if it'll help..."
... But my assault rifle IS for sport! I use it to hunt BATF agents.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:10:56
EID:80ee 20550140
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa93c
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3126452a
DW> 16 Feb 96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael Hardy:
KW> much self respect to vote for any of the republicans. Hell, the last
KW> time I voted for a repulican't was when Ford ran.
That could make her as young as 38. I've seen plenty of
women that age I'd hardly consider "middle-age mommies". };->
DW> "Middle aged mommy type" my ass. You're ancient. :P
Uh, I believe they prefer to be called "crones".
... If I have any belief, it is that faith is a dangerous thing. --RBJ
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:06:14
EID:6698 205470c0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa93d
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3125fe6e
DW> 15 Feb 96 18:19, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> speaking of that putz, do you want to bet his name used to
DW>> be just plain old Terry Parker, until he got swept up in
DW>> this militia craze?
TP> Hey jerkface, did you have something you wanted to say to me; or do
TP> you just do your cowardly snipping behind your would-be opponents
TP> back?
"Hey jerkface"??? We go from "Give me liberty or give me death"
to "Hey jerkface" in just 220 short years...tsk.
Let's see, how did Neil Peart put it?
"We can go from rocket's red glare
Down to 'Brother can you spare?'
Another war, another wasteland,
And another lost generation."
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:39:09
EID:0bd5 205474e0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa93e
REPLY: 1:207/212 5064e495
KD> ... "We could take in an old Steve Reeves movie." -- Frank
"Who the fuck is Steve Reeves?" -- Audience
... Prophylacteries: For those who like to play when they pray.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:40:32
EID:51d8 20547500
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa93f
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 127b5a90
RS> It is interesting to note that today I heard reports that some of
RS> Buchanan's aides are rumored to be members of white power type groups.
RS> There have been several articles in several papers that I read.
RS> Apparently there were two people that either resigned or were asked
to
RS> leave. One of them, a lady down in Florida who managed on the county
RS> level for Buchanan, is [get this] the chairwoman of the NAAWP. Yes
RS> you heard it here first. The National Association for the Advancement
RS> of White People.
And of course, I'm sure you know who the founder of the NAAWP
is, don't you? David Duke, who I understand, quit the KKK
because he got tired of "all the hicks with green teeth." It's
apparently his idea of a Kinder, Gentler Klan.
... * Origin: COPROLALLIA NETWORK--Talking up shit for Jesus! -=SCATNET=-
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:49:56
EID:0d54 20547620
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa940
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3127fda0
PS> I heard recently that Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, with
PS> a fortune surpassing that of the Sultan of Brunei. Sheesh.
No, the Sultan is still the richest--with something like
$24B. I think there are at least 4 or 5 people in the world
richer than Gates, but he's definitely #1 in the US.
I heard he's made plans to buy the Bettman Archive, which would
give him the rights to computerize photos of the whole collection.
... Well do you, punk?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 20 Feb 96 15:05:18
EID:3f0b 205478a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa941
REPLY: 1:284/120 5201aae8
DK> experiences. Please respond if you'd like to share, and I will also.
DK> Anyone having a question for me on the subject, please ask away - but
DK> keep in mind that I will not be drawn into an argument over the
DK> existence of Angels. Thanx!
Then you might want to find another echo. We don't coddle
beliefs here. This echo's purpose *is* the cross-examination
of all beliefs. Try MUDDLE_HEADED_MYSTICS if you want to
keep playing games without someone raining on them.
... If I have any belief, it is that faith is a dangerous thing. --RBJ
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: ALL
|Sub: Our Daily Spam
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:01:39
EID:5a00 20550020
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa947
GM> Look away from earth's attractions,
GM> All earth's joys will soon be o'er;
GM> Rest not till thy heart exclaimeth:
GM> "I have Christ! What want I more?" -Walker
GM>
GM> BE SMART -
GM> ASK FOR GOD'S WISDOM.
GM> OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand
GM> Rapids, Michigan. Used by permission.
So--who out there ever wondered what Matt Giwer would be like
if he was a fundy? Think this answers _that_ burning question?
... I.N.R.I. - I'm Not Really Ingestible
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: One God
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:10:59
EID:9dc6 20550140
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa948
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 626671f9
BJ>> ... Is your church Acts 2:38 approved?
MH> I've just turned this echo on and this is one of the first
MH> things I see.
JH> ________ +---------------------+
JH> | | | What was the second |
JH> | &@@@@& | | thing you saw? |
JH> l@@@@@@@@@l +---------------------+
JH> l& x x &l /
JH> l( V )l /
JH> jll( \___/ )lll
JH> jlll (VVVVV)|lllj
You are a truly sick and subtle person. Goat knows why
you don't stop by FLAME every once in awhile to help us
Fight The Good Fight against the hegemony of idiocy there.
They're flatliners on the world's bellcurve.
... Did he just say..."splunge"?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:10:59
EID:536d 20550140
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa949
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 626b3c4c
JH> On Feb 17 20:33 96, Dawn Kleuser of 1:284/120 wrote:
DK> I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like to hear any
DK> stories anyone has about them. No doubt there is a whole slew
DK> of skeptics out there who would love to attack me on this
DK> subject, but I'm not lookin' for a fight. Just wanna swap Angel
DK> experiences. Please respond if you'd like to share, and I will
DK> also. Anyone having a question for me on the subject, please ask
DK> away - but keep in mind that I will not be drawn into an
DK> argument over the existence of Angels. Thanx!
JH> On Range Road just off Laurier there are angels hanging around in
JH> front of the embassy. This weekend we saw them beating and raping
JH> young boys. People just looked down at their feet and walked by a
JH> little faster; not so fast as to draw attention to themselves
JH> though. Sometimes if you are at a bank machine, the angels will
JH> come up and make you give them money. Last week they made Chris & I
JH> sing "I Walk The Line" by Johnny Cash while they shot at our feet;
JH> of course we danced like minstrels.
JH> This morning they were blowing poisonous gas over Nepean for their
JH> chemical warfare experiments; the chancherous pustules are kind of
JH> a drag but only a crazy weeble would dare complain.
JH> This afternoon the angels shot my neighbor's dog and made his wife
JH> take the dog's place. She had to do everything the dog did. It was
JH> horrible.
JH> Right now the angels have made it very cold and they piled 22cm of
JH> snow on my Volvo (hee hee hee) those jerks. You should've seen
JH> Chris's car, him too! They ran up my amex card in Hull and they
JH> made me hungover this weekend.
Oxygen! Gimme oxygen! ROFLMAO!!
... Happy End Times. Regards Kortron.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:10:59
EID:5a0c 20550140
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa94a
NS> ... Uglk u bagronk sha pushdug Asmodeus-glob b#bhosh skai.
Two questions: What language? What's the translation? :)
... Du halb-verdauter schleimiger Kotzbrocken.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:11:00
EID:bc9e 20550160
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312aa94b
JP> Kinda like when God sent angles to shepherds to announce
JP> Messiah's birth,.... stead of sending them to the big shots.
NS>
NS> God sent 'angles'? How did he know they were the 'right angles' to
NS> send?
NS>
He had an acute sense of character judgment.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Maria russel in the new_w
|Date: 18 Feb 96 21:10:43
EID:764f 2052a940
MSGID: 3:711/933 3127967e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 311d968c
Dear Preston Simpson,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
PS> And what, exactly did Weishaupt do to found the United States?
As far as I know, nothing. However, it has been stated that Thomas Jefferson
was an adrent Illuminist.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 18 Feb 96 21:16:24
EID:67a1 2052aa00
MSGID: 3:711/933 31279cd2
REPLY: 1:289/80 311F052D
Dear Brother Eric Hendrix,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
EH> Faith doesn't necessarily come from proof, but a feeling in the
EH> heart (symbolically, not physically!).
Might I suggest that faith is not a feeling but a clear revelation of the
revealed Word of God, or understanding. Faith is the mind of Christ is us.
EH> The biggest short-coming in Christianity is the people.
But that's only because they are not Christians, not having faith. So they
have no part in Christianity except their identification by profession.
EH> As far as the end of the world, the Bible doesn't say exactly when it
EH> will happen. As a matter of fact, it says no human will know until
EH> it happens.
I rather believe it says the opposite. Have you read I Thessalonians 5,
or Matthew 24?
EH> The Bible says it kinda like this, 2 in the fields, 1 is left
EH> standing. Meaning, when the Christians are delivered to Heaven, it
EH> will be in "The batting of an eye.", instant.
Meaning nothing of the kind. The separation has been in progress since the
revelation of the Seven Seals brought Christ's `parousia'. It is the Shout
of I Thessalonians 4:16, which is the Message of the prophet of Revelation
10:7 and Malachi 4:5-6, Matthew 25:6-7 and Revelation 18:4.
You are confusing the translation with the new birth of the end-time Bride
and missing the manifestation of the Sons of God.
EH> They have made up stories of Hangar 13 (I think 13, don't remember
EH> the number for sure), where they supposedly have an alien's
EH> spaceship. Now, when the world ends, they have the excuse of "They
EH> were abducted by aliens!"...
That's an interesting speculation but I don't believe there is anything
to it. I'll say why. The Gentile dispensation ends with a massive earthquake.
Los Angeles and 1100x4-500 miles of Los Angeles fall beneath the Pacific
in a moment of time. There will be giant tsunami. The Pacific ring of fire
will erupt and the Mount of Olives will also split in two, destroying the
Mosque of Omar.
Tens of millions will perish in that one day. The resurrection of the New
Testament sleeping saints will commence, as will the manifestation of the
Sons of God. In the translation of the living saints, there will be so FEW
taken and it will be such a time of trouble, they will NOT be MISSED. The
churches all go into the tribulation still preaching their false salvation
messages. Furthermore, during the manifestation of the sons of God, the
saints will be a hunted and persecuted little group ... by the church. And
the foolish virgin begin to be killed, by the church. Satan will incarnate
the Pope and Rome will rule the NWO.
So I think you can forget about Aliens, and Hanger 13. Otherwise, keep
up the good work.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 18 Feb 96 23:26:40
EID:3a60 2052bb40
MSGID: 3:711/933 3127b6f6
Dear AL SCHROEDER,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Hmmm. A friend of mine, Neil Anderson, is a publisher of GOSPEL
AS> ADVOCATE magazine and au courant of contemporary movements, and one
of
AS> the elders of my church, a college professor, specializes in studying
AS> both history and cults, a Dr. Bill Gorree. I think a visit to both of
AS> them is in order.
I think it would be a thorough waste of time. If, of course you are seeking
the faith. Were they Christians they would have received God's prophet.
Why do you look for him outside the Bible?
AS> I remember Larry Sites speaking of "Brother Branham".
But Larry Sites is a businessman and not a Christian. Perhaps you failed
to notice he omitted the original and largest cult, the Roman Catholic church.
Furthermore, what he wrote about Brother Branham and his followers, is
not only a lie, it is absurd.
AS> Would you care to give a short synopsis of his life? (For those
AS> reading. Trust me. I have a reason.)
Why should anyone trust you? And who cares for your reasons? You have not
been honest and straightforward with God is any of your letters and have
not gone to your Bible to prove these things.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 18 Feb 96 23:32:20
EID:3a60 2052bc00
MSGID: 3:711/933 3127b7ee
Dear AL SCHROEDER,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Quite frankly, Anthony, I think you are ignoring the reality--the
AS> Holocaust...
There was no such thing, least wise not in so much as killing 6 million
Jews.
AS> and all it implies...
All it implies is a lucrative lie.
AS> and instead are embracing a fantasy...in the Illuminati.
Amazing that the Jews disown nazi-ism, Communism and the Illuminati - three
very real monsters of their creastion yet promote the holocaust killing
of 6 million which is an absurd fantasy contrary to their own records.
AS> your words are the stuff of which hatred is sewn.
Yes, the self-styled Gentile Jews are expert at this.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 18 Feb 96 23:36:16
EID:3a60 2052bc80
MSGID: 3:711/933 3127b99e
Dear AL SCHROEDER,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Unfortunately for your paranoid antiSemitism,
This is a horrible and wickedly false accusation to aim at me. I am not
anti Semitic. Those who are anti-Semitic are the Jews. Go to Israel and
find out, or read your newspaper.
AS> Fortunately for those who love truth, the Holocaust has been
AS> exhaustively researched.
Yes, and proven to be a lie.
AS> Actually, the six million DOES appear to be a slight overestimate.
By about 5,700,000.
AS> The real figures are more in the four to five million range,
AS> according to a TIME last year.
But not according to the Jewish Encyclopaedia or the Encyclopaedia of the
Holocaust. Do your homework. You know as little about this subject as you
know about God's Woird. You are an egotist.
AS> There is a Holocaust Museum here in the states,
There is one in Sydney. And it is a lie just as the one in Washington is
a lie.
AS> Or let us introduce you to a few survivors.
Many of whom have admitted to the absurd lies of Judaism. Even the signs
outside many of the old camps in which the 6,000,000 were gassed read, `NO
JEWS WERE GASSED AT THIS CAMP'.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Roland
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 18 Feb 96 23:43:55
EID:c7fc 2052bd60
MSGID: 3:711/933 3127bab8
Dear Brother Roland,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
R> I do not think the Carbon-14 dating method is perfect....However i do
R> think that it is normally `close enough'.
Brother, they have carbon dated contemporary things to millions of years
old. Just takle God at His Word.
R> Also how can you explain that dinosaur and man fossils have never been
R> found in the same relative area, at the same depth indicating that
R> both existed in the same time frame.
But they have.
R> And if man did exist at the same time as dinosaurs, would we not have
R> been prey to them?
I suppose they did.
R> And would not some human fossils have been found with teeth and claw
R> marks on the bones?
I don't see why.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: pope p.o'd at prots
|Date: 18 Feb 96 23:49:09
EID:7816 2052be20
MSGID: 3:711/933 3127bbf3
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12137ca1
Dear Brother John,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
JP> Pope John Paul II accused Protestant missionaries Tuesday of sowing
JP> "confusion and uncertainty" among Roman Catholics.
A timely confession that Romans are NOT the elect of God. As the Pope should
know, the elect of God cannot be deceived on the revealed Word
of God, receive only His Word, and will not follow a stranger.
JP> The poor and Indians may be most prone to stray,
JP> and in need of guidance from Catholic clergy,
JP> the pope said
Maybe his missionaries should evangelize them at the point of a sword
like the original Roman missionaries did.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Ben Guitard
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: One God not three
|Date: 20 Feb 96 16:09:49
EID:ab65 20548120
PID: Telegard 2.99.g4 [ml]
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 ce222e42
NOTE: IceEdit 1.40 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:252/107 3129f24d
TID: FastEcho 1.45 UNREG
MB> That's bullshit! If god had not put evil in the world, there would
MB> not be any people who were evildoers, as evil would not be an option.
MB> Zappo! There goes your argument. Instead of thinking in terms of
MB> removing those who participate in the possible, think in terms of
MB> evil being an impossibility, just as flying without wings in an
MB> impossibility.
Just a comment here, it's impossible to live in a world with no evil! It's
like trying to use a see-saw with only one person! Besides what is evil?
No
one can agree on what exactly evil is anyway!
--- Telegard v2.99.g4 [ml]
* Origin: The Other Domain * Hawkestone ON * (705) 487-6520 (1:252/107)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 252/107 303 140 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 16:08:28
EID:9830 20538100
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca10
FMPT 1012
> I have seen Gramm speak out against abortion.
SA> I haven't. I find that to be quite odd, given the number of his
SA> speeches that I've watched & listened to. He must not be very
SA> outspoken, to have concealed such an important issue.
JH> Date : 05/08/95
JH> GRAMM COURTS RELIGIOUS SUPPORT
JH> Candidate Pledges to "Restrict" Abortion, Oppose Gays in Military
JH> by Conrad F. Goeringer
JH> Hoping to gain support from religious evangelicals, Senator Phil Gramm
JH> said Saturday, May 6, that he would restrict abortions and overturn
JH> the Clinton administration's "destructive and unworkable policy on
JH> gays in the military" if elected president. Gramm made his remarks
JH> during commencement ceremonies at Liberty University in Virginia,
JH> founded by Rev. Jerry Falwell, before a crowd of 8,000 people.
Regarding ABORTION- No mention at all of Roman Catholicism.
How typically deceptive, designed to protect the image of RC.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Why
|Date: 19 Feb 96 16:17:00
EID:fabc 20538220
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca11
FMPT 1012
> On idiot went to far as to propose that people on unemployment be used
> to keep the elk off of his Private property....
DM> Sounds like a conservative who pisses and moans about the misuse of
DM> his tax money by the poor.
JH> As well as an idiot who thinks that unemployement INSURANCE is a "hand
out".
JH> It aint.
Like some idiots think the US government crippling one's ability to earn
a living - marking one for life, by officially stigmatizing one as "nuts"
and,
then sending a meager compensation is the same as welfare "hand out."
It aint.
oh well,.... we all gotta play the cards we're dealt.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 19 Feb 96 16:21:26
EID:542f 205382a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca12
FMPT 1012
> The Bible doesn't even get pi right - I doubt it has information on how
> to run Win95.
DW> Sure it does... doesn't the Bible mention praying a lot? :)
JH> PSALMS 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble
JH> [which I suffer] of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up
JH> from the Gates of death:
Hmmmmm,
Well, IF Gates get's a "terrible head wound" !!
And DON'T tell me Gates is RC !
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: children
|Date: 19 Feb 96 16:28:32
EID:724d 20538380
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca13
FMPT 1012
> You're like a fucking bad penny, you know? You just keep turning up. You
> are a non-believer. Your name-calling is irrelevant. Fuck you and the
> anti-Christ you rode in on, Pre-wit.
JP> Your retort will only impress your fellow dolts.
DW> And your retort is going to impress anybody besides yourself? Lose
DW> that whacked-out JFK/Kissinger fantasy of yours, and I might start
DW> caring about your opinion.
No you wouldn't. You, and many HolySmoke heathes/atheists think
people are mentally defective just because they believe in GOD.
So you are obviously incompetent to render a meaningful analysis
of interpretation of the Revelation.
You are like a person who can't add 2 plus 2,
yet who expects his opinion of calculus to be taken seriously.
DW> Until then, you're just a friggin' loon that ought
DW> to be locked in a rubber room for his own good.
Have a happy, WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 19 Feb 96 16:41:22
EID:f3e7 20538520
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca14
FMPT 1012
DW> 13 Feb 96 20:04, Michael Hardy wrote to All:
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites,
MH> they will come down equally hard on Frederick Leff.
> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
DW> Hardly, how many times must this be explained to you?
DW> Neither Fred nor any other atheist here claims to fallow some
DW> superior moral code that everybody else should follow as well.
Yet many heathens seem so hurt when that is pointed out to them.
WBW, John
DW> I don't give a fuck whether your
DW> software or anyone else's is registered or not.
DW> If you tell me "Thou shalt not steal" while using unregistered
DW> software, however, I'm going to abuse the hell out of you.
DW> Does that lonely neuron of yours understand this,
DW> or do we need to get Barney in here to sing it to you?
SHAREWARE FEE PAID MAY OF 1994
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 17:24:02
EID:9830 20538b00
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca15
FMPT 1012
JP> Granted, this is bad news for nature worshippers and bureaucrats
JP> accustomed to having a kingdom based on enslaving people
JP> on a taxpayer funded welfare plantation.
JH> John.... If you are so opposed to "welfare enslavement"
JH> why don't you stop cashing your very own disability checks?
I think the nation would be better off without the current welfare system.
I think the nation would be better off without stigmatizing me as "nuts.'
However,
"The nation" has pretty well convinced me that the nation
doesn't much care what I think. Fine. Fair enough.
Citizens elect legislators, who create government agencies.
Citizens pay taxes which fund these agencies/bureaucracies.
To a great degree, the American government embodies the
collective character and will of American citizens.
As long as the citizen created, citizen-funded psychiatric
bureaucracy stigmatizes me by officially labeling me "nuts"
[until and unless Jesus makes me know I should do otherwise],
I'll continue cashing the checks.
[ Without anger toward my fellow citizens.
and,
Without gratitude toward my fellow citizens.]
Disgruntled citizens are invited to direct their complaints to the
citizen elected officials who have the power to change the system.
WBW, John
ps- One might bear in mind that I've spent thousands of hours and
thousands of dollars distributing a message to my fellow citizens
that [though they now think it is crazy] I hope and believe will
eventually prove to be very beneficial to those of my fellow citizens
who ultimately believe that message.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Gender
|Date: 19 Feb 96 17:26:58
EID:5cac 20538b40
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca16
FMPT 1012
LB> Judith and Mimi were killing time yakking about Gender:
MM> Hello Judith!
[------------------------------------------------------------]
LB> Corporations --
LB> the kinds with money to spend on political candidates -
LB> - are still largely run and owned by men. [----------]
Maybe the fact that these corporations were largely
built by men has something to do with that.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 19 Feb 96 17:32:26
EID:0713 20538c00
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca17
FMPT 1012
LB> Lynda and John were killing time yakking about Thumb-sucking Fundy:
LB> Andrew and Lynda were killing time yakking about Thumb-sucking Fundy:
AM> There were eyewitnesses who testified to Christ rising from the dead
AM> under duress of death.
LB> BTW -- I missed exactly what you said here the first time I read this.
LB> NOBODY claimed to have witness Christ "rising from the dead" -- there
LB> ARE claims of his ascencion, but the first witnesses to arrive at the
LB> tomb showed up AFTER THE FACT. If anyone claimed what you say they
LB> did under duress of death, they failed to get their testimony included
LB> in scripture. Lynda Bustilloz
JP> So what ? While I'm still up throwing electronic pearls to swine,
JP> my wife goes to bed. I go to bed a few hours later. I awake.
JP> She is not in bed. I go into the kitchen. She is in the kitchen.
JP> [though I didn't see her get out of bed]
JP> Can I safely conclude she previously got out of bed ?
LB> We're not talking about what you can safely conclude -- we're talking
LB> about what you say you witnessed -- which was her in the kitchen, not
LB> her getting out of bed. And if I say that you said you saw her get
LB> out of bed when you never said any such thing, that would -- in the
LB> eyes of cynics -- weaken my credibility. And you want to argue about
LB> it -- it's better for Andrew to make an inaccurate statement and let
LB> it continue to go uncorrected (this is the second time he's put it
LB> that way), rather than make the correction so next time he'll say it
LB> more accurately?
Hmmmm, True- better to be precisely accurate,...
OK,... but I think you're cutting them hairs a bit too fine.
LB> Do you also think we should lower passing SAT scores
LB> to zero so no one need ever feel they "failed"? The Scriptures record
LB> that there were witnesses to Jesus being physically present after he
LB> was crucified, but NO ONE tried to ever say they saw Him rise.
Agreed.
Why on
LB> earth would you desire to promote that sort of inaccuracy -- such a
LB> testimony would have changed the course of Christian theology, as
LB> there would be some indication of WHAT a bodily resurrection would
LB> entail, and that would have greatly minimized the debate that has gone
LB> on regarding that precise issue for the last 2000 years.
LB> Lynda Bustilloz
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 19 Feb 96 17:36:44
EID:62bc 20538c80
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca18
FMPT 1012
DW> 15 Feb 96 18:19, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to David Worrell:
DW>
> with: Terry Liberty-Parker
>
> speaking of that putz, do you want to bet his name used to be just plain
> old Terry Parker, until he got swept up in this militia craze?
>
TP> Hey jerkface, did you have something you wanted to say to me; or do
TP> you just do your cowardly snipping behind your would-be opponents
TP> back?
TP>
DW> This is a public forum, isn't it? I even included your full name, in
DW> case you did a text search on your name. Calm down before I sick the
DW> jack-booted government thugs on you, ok, junior?
DW>
TP> By the way, what do your comments add to the alleged topic of this
TP> echo;
TP>
^2
DW> 1. The last time I checked, you were not the moderator. 2. My comments
DW> are just as relevant to the topic of religious debate as are your
DW> paranoid rants. 3. Get a fucking life. The government is not out to
DW> get you. Go get laid or something, son, and chill the fuck out.
DW>
> you actually posted something useful. Amazing. See what you can do if
> you put your mind to it?
>
TP> I have every confidence that you and your LOSER buddies will find a
TP> way to discount it's value. That's why you're losers.
TP>
DW> Whatever you say, Terry. Blow up any federal nurseries lately?
DW>
> It's a sad state of affairs when even right-wing extremist lunatics find
> something in common with rational people.
>
TP> Oh isn't Fred a sweetie? After many exchanges that made it obvious
TP> that libertarians support freedom in common with lefties and righteis
TP> he still manages to obsess on his very own bias. Good ole steadfast
TP> Fred, reality will NOT disuade his prejudice.
TP>
DW> Fred, like me, is quite open about his bias against paranoid little
DW> no-neck geeks like yourself, Terry. He's never tried to hide it, and
DW> neither have you.
DW>
> It is almost enough to make me wonder if the CDA us a *good* thing. If
> it pissed Parker off, it can't be all bad.
>
TP> Well there it is. You found a way to discount info that YOU had
TP> deemed useful. Of course LOSERS will support infringing their kids
TP> birthright of freedom if it MIGHT undermine the target of their
TP> irrational prejudice.
TP>
DW> The idea of you calling *anybody* else irrational is ludicrous, Terry.
why ? HE doesn't claim JFK's gonna reappear.
Terry's never even acted particularly religious.
You and Fred just resent anyone that doesn't seem as stupid as you two.
DW> You're living in a paranoid little irrational world where the big,
DW> bad, jack booted government thugs are out to get you. Remove the beam
DW> from thine own eye...
DW>
TP> Losers don't create value
TP>
DW> What have you created here, Terry? All I've seen from you are
DW> cut-and-paste jobs.
DW>
TP> That's why they're LOSERS.
TP>
DW> Projecting again, Terry? You can't get the government to come after
DW> you and give meaning to your paranoid delusions, so know you want to
DW> get your betters to take their place? Run along and play, junior - the
DW> adults have better things to do than waste time on your little ego
DW> trip.
DW>
DW> ---
DW> * Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 19 Feb 96 17:40:38
EID:f4cd 20538d00
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca19
FMPT 1012
SA> And Brave Sir Boni ran away, screaming "Christian Jobs"!
SA>
BH> Can you imagine the bloody uproar that would ensue if I was to
BH> advertise: "Wanted: Must be Native and untainted by Christianity. No
BH> Jews, Moslems or Hindus ne apply. Skilled leather craftsperson."
BH>
BH> THINK ABOUT IT, PEOPLE!!!
BH>
SA> It happens already, more or less. Witness the proposed BHP-Canada
SA> diamond mine in the NorthWest Territories - they've vowed to give a
SA> certain percentage of jobs to local Indians/Inuit. IOW, for those
SA> positions, only "native" (gads, how I HATE that word when used to
SA> exclude OTHERS born here as well) need apply. While local people in
SA> general should have first shot at jobs opening up anywhere, I see no
SA> sense in limiting jobs to people based on race, religion, etc - that
SA> is just as wrong as an employer demanding a "Christian" truck driver.
SA>
BH> More than 60% of the population there is Native/Inuit. 75% of them
BH> are unemployed. If the Euro-Canadians were not *already* holding up
BH> much of the job market--this situation could not exist. So how fair
BH> is the situation as it sits? The Native/Inuit ARE the local
BH> population in that area... Since 50% of the Native populace is
BH> unemployed *all* over Canada--how do you find it unfair that BHP are
BH> forced to hire a percentage of the *local* populace which happens to
BH> BE mostly Native?
BH>
SA> As I hope you'll agree, fairness works both ways.
SA>
BH> Fairness has *not* worked *both* ways for over 300
BH> years--obviously!
Showing up for work at the factory on time
isn't part of "Native" culture.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 19 Feb 96 18:18:32
EID:4bb7 20539240
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca1a
FMPT 1012
JP> Far as I'm concerned, the business owner should be able
JP> to hire or fire for any reason, or no reason at all.
JP> Nobody owes anybody a job.
JH> Everyone is due fair treatment. Firing someone
JH> for "no reason at all" is not fair treatment.
Sure it's fair. If the employer is "bad",
then he won't be able to keep "good" employees,
and "good" people will shun his business.
Therefore, due to competition with a "good" employer,
the "bad" business owner will eventuall go out of business.
This is called "free enterprise" at work.
It's part of what made America the most free and
properous nation the world had ever seen.
It's also fair because anyone that don't
like it can start their own business.
JH> But I don't expect a Christian to grasp such concepts...
I just don't agree with anti-freedom, enterprise strangling,
poverty-creating c/o/m/m/u/n/i/s/t liberal concepts.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 19 Feb 96 19:34:50
EID:9519 20539c40
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca1b
FMPT 1012
RS> Mimi Milstein wrote in a message to Ryan Shaw:
RS>
BJ> You ask for none bible evidence, and people tell me I think in
BJ> circles. Do you believe in Enstins theories? How do you know they
BJ> are correct?
BJ>
RS> They can be shown to be correct over and over again by various people.
RS>
MM> on the other hand... a few days ago I read in the paper that a UK (?)
MM> scientist challenged the relativity theory and also claimed
MM> contemporary science had deliberately suppressed some theorems which
MM> did not match up with the RT. So maybe not even Einstein :-)
MM>
RS> Ok. A better thing to say that in science things are always tested.
RS> When found to be true, they're true. When found to be false, then
RS> they are discarded or reworked.
RS>
RS> Nothing in the Bible can be tested in such a way.
Wrong. But nobody can do the testing for you.
Ya gotta do it for yourself.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 19 Feb 96 19:37:22
EID:038a 20539ca0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca1c
FMPT 1012
> And so does the mass killings.
> Answer the damn question.
> Why does your god murder?
AM> What mass killings you refering to?
MG> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
How long have you equated Jim Jones with God ?
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FOF update
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:21:58
EID:a108 205472a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca1f
FMPT 1012
JP> Hey,... be nice to Exxon,..
JP> Exxon provided Alaskans a lot of JOBS that summer !
JH> That's the basic problem with you. You're more than ready (you're
JH> fucking eager) to sell out the future for some pocket change today.
My above is an example of the subtle, but biting,
humorous social commentary that I'm becoming famous for.
JH> Who gives a damn if the next generation has to live in a lifeless
JH> wasteland poisoned with the residues of your idea of "prosperity".
JH> And all the generations after them...
You got your way of expressing concern about future generations.
I got mine.
JH> Do you really think that throwing environmental concerns
JH> to the wind and kissing the ass of Big Business ........
"Big Business" is just serving the appetite of
"Big, materialistic, self-centered consumers."
JH> ................ will give you a higher standard of living?
JH> Take a look at Louisiana. Or New Jersey.
I take it you get your electricity from a homemade
generator propelled by the creek that runs by your tent ?
JH> But you don't think there is going to be a future, do you?
Oh, there's a future, alright. A real long one.
JH> Jesus is going to come down and make all the waste dumps
JH> disappear with a twitch of his cute little nose.
Amen ! Praise the Lord !
JH> Enjoy your mess of pottage, you crazyass motherfucker.
DON'T forget to take your blood pressure medicine !
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:55:48
EID:24ac 205476e0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca20
FMPT 1012
DW> 16 Feb 96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael Hardy:
KW> much self respect to vote for any of the republicans. Hell,
KW> the last time I voted for a repulican't was when Ford ran.
DW> "Middle aged mommy type" my ass.
DW> You're ancient. :P
You're an obnoxious kid.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
11/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:07:00
EID:cac7 205470e0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca26
FMPT 1012
LB> Lynda and John were killing time yakking about apostate:
MH> Lynda has been terribly hard on Maria too.
MH> A few weeks ago, she apologized ...........
JP> I did not see that post.
LB> I suspect very few people did, .........
JP> Seeing it would have probably had some effect .......
LB> I appreciate you saying that, John. ................
[-------------------------------------------------------]
You're welcome. WBW, John
[now resume normally scheduled flame throwing ! ]
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: information
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:10:14
EID:c0f6 20547140
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca27
FMPT 1012
> Aaron Boyden> I was awarded a master's degree in philosophy by UC Santa
> Barbara in 1995, 28 years after Wald got his Nobel prize. I'm also at
> present a doctoral candidate in philosophy at that same institution.
> [--------------------] I encountered the above facts in a class on the
> philosophy of science at the University of Minnesota (the Twin Cities
> campus; that's where I spent my undergraduate days, so I have a B.A.
in
> philosophy from there if you want to count all my credentials),
> [--------------------------------------------]
MG> Children, should not be allowed to watch porn. [---------]
AB> Out of curiosity, why shouldn't children be allowed to watch porn?
AB> [-------------------------------------------------------------------]
JP> So much for "higher" "education."
AB> The Meese commission was unable to find any discernable link
AB> between pornography and any kind of anti-social behavior.
Demonstrating the worthlessness of the "Meese commission."
A well done movie of 15 year olds enjoying sexual activity
will incline 15 year old watchers to engage in sex activity.
Only idiots can't make that "link."
I don't need a panel of "experts" to know that porno is
a destructive influence. Just like a drug addiction.
And like with drugs, pushers target the young.
Get'em hooked.
Our whole culture has been degraded and "dumbed down" by the
"soft" porn that has been standard network fare for decades.
Every day advertisers make MILLIONS by creating TV, magazine,
radio advertising which alters thinking/behavior.
All kinds of special interest groups are VERY concerned as to
how their group is portrayed on TV and in movies, thereby
they acknowledge that TV - movies alter/influence thinking.
Sponsors PAY BIG BUCKS just to have the star drink a particular
soft drink or drive a particular car. The young are especially
impressionable, and follow the leads of their celebrity "heros."
Yet in spite of the PROVEN fact that movies and TV alters thinking,
making behavior acceptable that otherwise seemed unacceptable, some
would have us think children would be unharmed by exposure to porno.
Where would you draw the line ? Do you think 12 year old boys
would be unaffected by violent porno of [for instance] the
pleasure of committing a gang rape ?
And some wonder why Suzy is pregnant at 14, and Billy the 16 year
old "father" is unable [even if willing] to support a family.
AB> Considering how much
AB> they would have liked to find such a link, I'm inclined to conclude
AB> that the only thing which could have caused them to fail would be the
AB> absence of any such link, combined with a little more honesty from
AB> Meese than I would really have expected. I can see keeping guns,
AB> cars, even drugs away from kids, as they present clear dangers when
AB> irresponsibly used, and of course kids can't be trusted to be
AB> particularly responsible. However, the Meese commission didn't fail
AB> to find a link between responsible use of pornography and anti-social
AB> behavior; it failed to find a link between any use of pornography and
AB> anti-social behavior. Thus, the issue of responsibility doesn't seem
AB> to arise, so I don't see the need for making kids an exception in this
AB> area.
For society, the problem is that sexual activity causes babies
that 15 year olds are not prepared to adequately care/provide for
[then those babies inherit MORE than their fair share of society
affecting problems].
Enter welfare bureaucaracy,... now Joe Blow the hard working taxpayer
must support not only his own wife and kids, but is also expected
to chip in to support 15 year old Suzy and her kid[s].
People who think kids are unaffected by porno are stupid/sick.
And status quo, establishment "experts" are more a part of the
problem, than they are part of any solution.
Really, there is no worldly solution.
The corruption can only proceed. From worse to worse.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: ABORT THEM ALL! (Then eat Staal's remains.)
|Date: 20 Feb 96 00:23:05
EID:6374 205402e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 312a5ecc
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62544e0a
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Sue and J.J. were killing time yakking about ABORT THEM ALL! (Then eat
Staal's remains.):
SA> (As an aside, I'd laugh like a hyaena if it were found
SA> Swaggart contracted AIDS from his little plaything. It
SA> would just be such poetic justice ..)
JH> Unfortunately there was no danger of that.
JH> He used a condom even when he was only masturbating.
JH> (No, I have no idea WHY.)
Trying to prevent hairy palms?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Common sense, unfortunately, isn't!
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 20 Feb 96 00:32:31
EID:e144 20540400
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 312a5ecd
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 312647bd
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Kevin and David were killing time yakking about Churches:
KM> That's a remarkably stupid attitude, IMO. If/when I get married, I
KM> want to marry a friend, an equal, not a puppet.
DW> There's a lot to be said for puppets, though.
I completely agree, Mr. Helpful Dave Happy-Puppet!
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Put your hand inside the Puppet Head.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:49:37
EID:922a 20550620
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 11804301
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62689f2b
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
JJH>> The claim made for the film is that it made in 1947, this is
JJH>> patently false as the microphone seen in the film is a Shure
JJH>> Brothers model that wasn't marketed until 1954.
SR> I have heard at least two other glaring technical-prop
JJH> Hmmm... I know about the telephone cord, what is the other one?
The phone cord was the most damaging. But in addition to the screw-ups
such as the hammer and microphone...they had a clock on the wall which at
first was thought to be of that time frame...but closer re-examination by
manufacturer's records revealed it to be from a period made six years *after*
'47.
Chocked FULL of detail failures! Much like those babble inconsistencies.
;)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 20 Feb 96 06:02:02
EID:09ad 20543040
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 626cf10d
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3126452a
DW> 16 Feb 96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael
DW> Hardy:
KW>> much self respect to vote for any of the republicans.
KW>> Hell, the last time I voted for a repulican't was when Ford
KW>> ran.
DW> "Middle aged mommy type" my ass. You're ancient. :P
Hell... that was the first election I voted in.
However, I voted for the guy from Georgia with all the teeth.
(There were at the time a number of doom-sayers who were saying
that Carter was the Antichrist. I would have voted Democratic
anyway, but it was a point in his favor.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Buttpimple Satanist FAILS again.
|Date: 20 Feb 96 11:50:12
EID:cd17 20545e40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6270243d
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312909d2
A>> Anyway, in this instance I employed summoning to damage
A>> J.J. (take another) Hitt.
JH>> Oh! Oh! I'm damaged!
PS> He says that he employed summoning, J.J. Did you see any little
PS> things with horns and wings appear out of nowhere at you?
I'm calling from Texas, Insect Capital of the Universe. If there
had been such critters they wouldn't have been noticed.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 20 Feb 96 11:57:20
EID:a6b4 20545f20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6270315a
MARTIAN - Inhabitants of the planet Mars, both human and non-human,
including the alleged inhabitants of the two Martian 'moons' (which
many believe to be artificially-hollowed asteroids, although it is
uncertain whether these are controlled by the Evadamics or
Draconians). It has also been suggested that thousands of years
ago the surface of LUNA and MARS were much more 'habitable', that
the surfaces of these bodies may have been decimated after passing
through the asteroid belt or an 'asteroid storm' (consisting of
debris which 'may' have been torn from a planet which apparently
existed between Mars and Jupiter at one time - possibly destroyed
by a close encounter with another lanetary body in the tradition of
Velikovsky's theories). It is believed that ancient 'ruins',
possibly thousands of years old, have been seen on both 'planets'
and that these attest to such a cataclysm (Evadamic-Draconian).
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 20 Feb 96 12:02:16
EID:a6b4 20546040
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 627040f3
The "Orions" have a very negative reputation in much of the the
esoteric UFO/ET/alien literature because they have engaged in many
conflicts and in much destructive wars with other ETs of this
universe, as we saw in the book we used as an introduction to human
galactic heritage, The Prism of Lyra. Other esoteric sources inform
us that the greys that have perhaps had the most contact with humans,
through abductions, in the past thirty years, are from a star system
neighboring the Orion constellation, known as Zeta Reticuli. While evidence
indicates that many of the greys have been on earth for
centuries manipulating human societies, the Zetas are believed to
have arrived on the earth in the past 40 years, having made treaties
with the secret government of the United States and probably other
Earth governments. The Zeta's apparently have a genetic base that
is more insectoidal than the more reptilian greys described above.
All of the greys almost certainly have their own hierarchy amongst
themselves. Most of the greys themselves are servants, or
mercenaries, of the lizzies, or the reptilian race. The greys, or
most of them, make up what is known as the Orion Empire. The
lizzies are members of what they call the Federation of the
Draconian Reptoids. The Orion Empire and the Federation of Draconian
Reptoids work together and with other regressive ETs to try to
dominate and control several planets in this universe, including
Earth.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 20 Feb 96 12:05:56
EID:3c38 205460a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 627044aa
REPLY: 1:271/460 31285328
KM> I and my Father are one. That makes ONE God.
Sounds more like incest to me.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: information
|Date: 20 Feb 96 18:22:26
EID:e4e2 205492c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6273cc9a
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89284600
MH> Porn objectifies the opposite sex.
I've never understood this objection. What's the big deal about a
medium treating people as objects? Art does it. Sports do it. Drama
does it. Politics does it. Advertising and the popular media do it.
What's the big problem? The phone company treats you as something
less than an object, you're only an account number to them. Do you
want a meaningful personal relationship with your phone bill?
You're objection seems to boil down to the fact that most
pornography isn't interactive. But given time and technology
even that can change.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 01:14:02
EID:cf17 205509c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 627796fe
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89290E2B
He also produced a large number of the 8mm Swedish Erotica
loops towards the end of his career. He was probably perfect
for this: he knew how to quickly turn out a film on no budget
and wasn't concerned with plots, dialog or originality.
He also did a "sex documentary" which featured Bela Lugosi as a
transvestite. This was Lugosi's last film when he was alive.
Plan 9, which also features Lugosi, was made AFTER he died.
That's why you rarely see Bela's face and when you do it's
from cutting room scraps of earlier films. The back of Lugosi's
head was played by Ed Wood himself.
JH>> His work has been enjoying a cult following over the last
JH>> decade or so. A case of being sooooo damn bad you're good.
DC> Like the Godzilla flicks the Japanese made. So much fun
DC> making up dialogue for it as you viewed it!
HEY! I *like* Godzilla 1.0 (with a young Raymond Burr), it's all
those later updates that gave the Big Lizard a bad name.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: hello!
|Date: 21 Feb 96 01:57:04
EID:5067 20550f20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6277e083
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8928460A
MH> I don't think Genesis is geocentric. It is concerned with
MH> the creation of the Earth, yes, but it never says -- nor
MH> even implies -- that Earth is the center of the universe.
What is firmament?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Religious Experience
|Date: 21 Feb 96 02:00:10
EID:c025 20551000
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6277eec9
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312909d1
PS> And we wonder why the US infant mortality rate is so high.
Rush Limbaugh sez we got the best health care in the whurld!
Are yew callin' Rush a liar?
If so, yew better git back to where yew came from.
We don't need yer kind in our country.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 02:07:10
EID:d104 205510e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6277fcd0
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 efae657c
MB> FoF was the group of scum behind that amendment to the
MB> Colorado Constitution that got declared unconstitutional in
MB> the courts. Nice, loving group of rejects from the KKK.
Really?
I was under the impression that amendment was "Pastor" Pete
Peters' baby. (Peters, a Coloradan, is a widely recognized
leader of the "Christian Identity" movement.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: information
|Date: 21 Feb 96 02:41:36
EID:0c5a 20551520
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62784a4b
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 ab2fc285
MB> The Meese Commission, however, concluded with a statement
MB> that despite having found no nexus, they STILL thought it
MB> was harmful to children. The one thing I've never figured
MB> out is that they also thought it was harmful to adults.
MB> Despite this, after having spent a year saturating their
MB> synapses with the stuff, not one member of the Commission
MB> went out and raped anybody, so far as we
MB> know.
MB> The whole thing was apparently a bit unscientific.
And more than just a little bit biased.
Remember that Focus On The Family's very own Dr. James Dobson
was one of the "experts".
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 20 Feb 96 12:42:14
EID:ad7a 20546540
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312abd55
Western Union Telegram
To: Jehova Yahweh
Care: Celestial Hotel (Suite #666)
Presidential Tier, Paradise
Dear God;
This is to inform you that your current position as diety is herewith
terminated due to gross incompetence STOP Your check will be mailed STOP
Please do not use me for a reference
Respectfully,
Malaclypse the Younger/Omnibenevolent Polyfather
POEE High Priest
As relayed by the Principia Discordia.
Stop it already!
... The square root of 69 is eight something.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 20 Feb 96 12:47:56
EID:ad7a 205465e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312abd56
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> February 20 Tuesday
GM> FASHION OR FAITH?
(etc, etc, etc)
I am taking this chance to ask you...do you even read what is posted
to you here? Can you actually respond with something other than a canned
post? I sincerely doubt it from what I have seen. If you read and
comprehend this message, please write one back IN YOUR OWN WORDS to let
us know.
Sue
... I'm going to hell? Well, Haw-ley-lew-yah and pass the marshmallows!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 20 Feb 96 12:57:49
EID:d6d2 20546720
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312abd57
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org bf467bfb
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Terry Liberty-parker <=-
KW> Terry, dear, if you are trying to be bitchy, you've missed the boat.
KW> This is how it's done:
(etc)
Katherine, that was wonderful! I only hope that I can achieve that
level of bitchiness someday. Anyone who thinks that Holysmoke is not
educational is sadly mistaken .
Sue
... Squishing an android yields Data compression.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
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PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 19 Feb 96 23:57:29
EID:1255 2053bf20
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3129842a
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dd6
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Sue Alexander <=-
RB> No, I don't. But human willingness to die for causes or
RB> beliefs does not make the cause righteous or the belief true.
AM> But its strong evidence that they believed thier own claims that
AM> Christ rose from the dead. Would they suffer execution all for a
AM> story they made up?
SA> Ahh, but you have part of the answer already. Willingness to die
SA> for what they believe is reason enough to die for a cause, at least
SA> for some people. This does not mean that what they believe happened
SA> really did, however.
AM> Oh?
Yeah.
SA> If I had a strong belief that time would cease to exist if I do
SA> not kill myself and I had a desire to make sure that time continues,
I
SA> may kill myself to make sure in my mind that time will continue. Does
SA> this mean that the only reason time would continue is that I killed
SA> myself?
SA> Think about it...
AM> But would you kill yourself if you knew you were only lying about
AM> time running out?
But I am not trying to suggest that the witnesses who were killed
for their belief did NOT believe in what they died for. In fact, I would
suspect that the ones who did die probably died for what they BELIEVED to
be true (no, I do not have evidence for this). What I am arguing about
is that BELIEF that something is true DOES NOT MAKE IT NECESSARILY TRUE.
In my scenario above there is nothing indicating that I was lying about
my belief. If the scenario (improbable as it is) did come to pass I
would kill myself if I could get up the nerve, because I would BELIEVE IT
TO BE TRUE. This does not make it true, does it?? It also does not mean
that I am lying.
Catch a clue!
Sue
... Have a nice day ...somewhere else.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 20 Feb 96 00:22:20
EID:ddf3 205402c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3129842b
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62284197
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> Happy Valentine's Day, JJ. I know I'm a day early, but I
JB> figure if I post it now, you may get it before St. Paddy's
JB> day.
JH> Thank you. Thank you very much...
JH> It got to me on time... sort of... I got it on the 14th, but
JH> unfortunately I was already dead.
JH> You probably won't get this message until after I resurrect.
JH> FidoNet is EVEN SLOWER on this side. (But on the plus side,
JH> I now know where all the missing mail goes to.)
Welcome back from the dead! Who did you show yourself to so that
you can start your very own set of rumors?
BTW, I am currently VERY interested in where all those missing
messages seem to be going, as Fido seems to be gobbling more than usual
around here (only around 150/day for the last 3-4 days...bah). Any ideas
for us mere mortals as to where those gobbled messages are going?
Sue
... "I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate" - Ivanova.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 20 Feb 96 00:39:39
EID:1255 205404e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3129842c
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dd2
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Sue Alexander <=-
AM> If your reffering to the admonishment in Corinthians, its because
AM> women were disrupting the church by asking there husbands questions
in
AM> the middle of service.
SA> Could you tell me which passage you found this bit of information
SA> in? Thanks in advance...
AM> 1st Cor. 14-35. I should have wrote that in my reply. It should
AM> be noted that the church of Corinth was rife with problems. It
AM> was a carnal church. The culture of the time also needs to be
AM> considered.
SA> 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not
SA> permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under
SA> obedience, as also saith the law.
SA> 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands
SA> at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
SA> ...but I did not find any indication that this was because the women
SA> were too loud or otherwise disruptive.
AM> That Paul said they should ask questions at home suggests that
AM> talking to there husbands during service wasn't a good thing. Even
AM> today, if a boss were having a meeting, it would be rude for people
AM> to be talking to each other.
That is SUPPOSITION. This interpretation (which you try to indicate
is supported by the bible in your earlier statements) does not have any
basis on what is written in the bible other than the fact it makes you
feel better that Paul must have had a reason other than being a bigot.
There is nothing that I saw that would indicate that Paul is not a bigot.
SA> I also found these passages that could be used to support the
SA> position of women in the church.
SA> (quote)
1 Cor 12:22-27 deleted to save space
SA> So, unless women are not a part of the body of Christ, they are
SA> members and should be honored and cared for as such. How is honor to
SA> be served by having that portion of the body remain silent for no good
SA> reason other than their extra X chromosome?
AM> Women are most certainly a part of the body. In the church I
AM> currently attend, many women are teachers of various grades. A
AM> women who is head of the womens bible study occasionally preaches
AM> to the congregation in the evening service. More women than men
AM> give words of phophecy before the congregation. And we've had
AM> visiting women in the ministry preach before our congregation.
And yet you believe that women should be silent in church. Do
you argue with the decision that allows the women that do preach at your
church? What happens if God gives the gift of teaching to a woman in
such strength that she feels compelled by her gift to become a minister
to the people? Are you saying that God could be wrong for giving her
this gift, or that God was wrong for giving her an extra X chromosome?
AM> In Pauls time the culture was that women should be seen and not
AM> heard, Pauls concern wasn't whether that was right or not, but how
AM> non-believers would percieve if women were speaking and teaching in
AM> the church.
Conjecture. This is not supported by the bible from what I have
seen.
AM> The harsh practices concerning women are still
AM> prevalent in that region even today. But I'll give you another
AM> example. Women in some cultures don't wear shirts. There not being
AM> lewd or provocative, there simply wearing the attire appropriate
AM> for the culture and the climate. If ministers were to preach there,
AM> there objective should be to get their hearts right with God, not
AM> whether they wear shirts or not. Nonetheless should a women from
AM> there come to a church here, it would be totally inappropriate for
AM> her to attend services shirtless. Why? Because in our culture, it
AM> would be considered lewd and provocative.
And why should our culture try to assimilate the other culture to
the extent that it would be inappropriate for someone to wear customary
clothing to a church service?
Sue
... "Certainly the game is rigged." -- Heinlein
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: THOMAS DELCANO
|To: GEORGE RUDZINSKI
|Sub: Re: Children
|Date: 20 Feb 96 03:53:00
EID:b6fc 20541ea0
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 1:360/24 9457935e
fore some reason George muttered
the following
GR> > With your permission I would like to post the pictures of missing
GR> > children on your echo. In UUE format they average 60,000 bytes
GR> > or six messages per UUE.
GR> SA> In all fairness to those who pay to move our messages, I suggest
GR> SA> that instead, you focus on making the pictures available via
GR> SA> regular announcements.
GR>I'm sure that the missing children and parents' of these children will
GR>understand that an avenue to re-unite them has been cut off due to fiscal
GR>responsibility.
GR>A buck is obviously worth more than a child.
yer pissin up a slippery rope , dude
your best bet would be to start a confrence where people who are
interested in looking , and willing to convert these pix could find em,
instead of tryin to shove them down the throats of folxs who dont give
a shit, and causin the sysops to waste those $$$ that could be used
elsewhere
WHAT!!! you expected to find CHRISTIAN KINDNESS??? HERE??????
ROFL...........
FARLOW,HILLIS,CARTER,COX,McPHERSON,LUTZ,OSBOURNE
... If you don't pay your exorcist, do you get repossessed?
---
* Diggin' up the Dead *
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * Knock Firm but softly, I LIKE soft firm knockers
* Origin: The PC Connection BBS * Martinez, GA. V.34+ (706) 868-6474 (1:360/24)
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|From: THOMAS DELCANO
|To: THOMAS BINIASZ
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 20 Feb 96 12:40:00
EID:a6bf 20546500
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 1:360/24 d4f35e86
fore some reason Thomas muttered
the following
TB>Just what is your point?
POINT??? POINT?? maybe the little point on your head.. how the hell aqm
i supposed to know just what you are refering to??
try quoting back part of the message you are responding to,
i dont have the cranial capacity to memorize every missive that flows
from my keyboard
blessed be
... Born Again???- My Goddess got it right the first time!
---
* Quote the Duke: *
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * Sex! Lies! Money! Drugs! Corruption!, God,I Love Congress
* Origin: The PC Connection BBS * Martinez, GA. V.34+ (706) 868-6474 (1:360/24)
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|From: THOMAS DELCANO
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: hi
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:01:00
EID:7c70 20546820
MSGID: 1:360/24 e9599256
The following
Psycho-babble was beamed into my
E-Mail box by John an unknown alien lifeform
******************************
JP> KW> [-----------]
JP> KW> Satanists are usually considered to be Christians by the Pagans,
JP> KW> [-----------]
JP>
JP> Demonstrating the ignorance of Pagans.
JP>
Untrue , Spunky SATAN is a christian god, not a pagan god,
we dont believe in him, only you xtians do, therefore he cant be pagan,
after all he is a fallen angel are you saying angels are pagan???
and since Satan is from the xtian pantheon, his followers are a xtian
sub-sect or cult.
FARLOW,HILLIS,CARTER,COX,McPHERSON,LUTZ,OSBOURNE
... If you don't pay your exorcist, do you get repossessed?
---
* Diggin' up the Dead *
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * Sex! Lies! Money! Drugs! Corruption!, God,I Love Congress
* Origin: The PC Connection BBS * Martinez, GA. V.34+ (706) 868-6474 (1:360/24)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 20 Feb 96 07:35:00
EID:4ec9 20543c60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-17-96 20:33, Dawn Kleuser got back to All
DK> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like
Isn't it a liitle early? Pre-season practice hasn't even started
yet.
... It's a fool's errand, which is why we asked you to attempt it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 20 Feb 96 07:46:00
EID:4e61 20543dc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 05:19, Kenneth Mcabee got back to Preston Simpson
PS> Yes, he is. The situation is no different than if I were to murder
KM> someone
PS> and hide all the evidence.
KM> Our laws do not apply to God.
Your god's own laws don't even apply to the murdering bastard.
... Fundys: 'possum-like creatures re-born dead on the side of the road.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 20 Feb 96 07:49:00
EID:3ea7 20543e20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 05:37, Kenneth Mcabee got back to Alan Hess
AH> Afraid not - according to the myth, God was in heaven while Jesus
AH> (allegedly also God) was on earth. That makes TWO gods, and Isaiah
45:5
AH> says there's only one.
KM> I and my Father are one. That makes ONE God.
So, just who was your godling praying to? Some false god in heaven?
... Fundies are like farts. All smoke, and they leave a bad smell.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:07:00
EID:9e3b 205440e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-17-96 12:41, George Mooth got back to All
GM> THE SMART HOUSE
Seems like you lost the address.
GM> Read: Ecclesiastes 2:1-11
Read: HHGTTG
"And the Vogon ship hovered like a brick doesn't."
... "Just what kind of Booger Bible are you using anyway?" J.j. Hitt
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: A TALE OF 2 CITIES...
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:50:00
EID:8bde 20544640
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-17-96 16:22, Rob Burcham got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> RB> were not divinely corrected. It's almost as if God is just
DC> RB> some old Hebrew guy.
DC> Strange.... I wonder if Yahweh was really spelled "Methusala"...
RB> Nah. Surely someone 900 years old would have known more
RB> about the world than this Yahweh character.
Then too, based a 12 month lunar year, he was only 75, and
probably senile...
... Jesus Saves, Gretzki scores on the rebound!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Definitions for lumpy
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:52:00
EID:0e29 20544680
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-18-96 15:41, Lynda Bustilloz got back to Dan Ceppa
KDM> As she said. I know she's a Christian, it's just that she usually
KDM> keeps her beliefs and other related items private.
DC> Don't tell me....
DC> She's had a cliterectomy....
LB> (G) No, but I *did* recently get out of the cash register banging
LB> business --
LB> I heard those things can be DANGEROUS!!
Gives a new meaning to "making change", doesn't it?
... Weed it and reap: American Vegetable Association
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: New Covenant
|Date: 20 Feb 96 09:05:00
EID:d1c9 205448a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 06:09, Jesse Jones got back to Alan Hess
AH>So why don't Christians keep kosher, among other things? Because
AH>they wrote a new book, and kept the parts they liked of the old one.
JJ> Because of the result of the Council of Jerusalem:
Same thing, isn't it...
JJ> Acts 15:22-29 "Then the apostles and the elders, with the
JJ> consent of the whole church, decided to choose men from among their
JJ> members and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent
"Barnabas" is quite close to "Barabas", isn't it...
JJ> with the following letter: "The brothers, both the apostles and the
JJ> elders, to the believers of Gentile origin in Antioch and Syria and
Isn't it strange that not much earlier, Saul was called on the
carpet for eating in a non-kosher fashion by that same group.
JJ> along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, {26} who have risked their
"Beloved [..] Paul"? Isn't that the same Paul/Saul that had to
flee for his life because of his heresy?
JJ> you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and
JJ> from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves
JJ> from these, you will do well. Farewell.""
The Jersusalem Church existed until c. 70 CE. They followed the
rules of the Torah, not of Saul's variation on that theme. Why
would they allow others to be considered to be part of their
sect and not follow their more orthodox Hebraic tradition? About
the only thing that they did that was not traditional was to not
stop following the teachings of their dead (or deposed) messiah.
... Only in revealed religion does mistranslation improve the sense.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: RE: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 20 Feb 96 09:09:00
EID:ad64 20544920
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 10:15, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
KW> Oh, yes, coat pockets are time warps. I'll never forget the October
I
KW> found $300 dollars in my heavy jacket. I had stuffed the money in a
Best I ever did was find a $20... Care to do a jacket exchange?
KW> The trick in this household is to get people to leave it alone long
KW> enough to cool. There is nothing better then hot from the oven whole
KW> wheat dripping with butter and honey. Or blueberry preserves.
That never seems to happen, unless you make a lot of loaves at the
same time! BTW, try the French bread with olive oil and garlic!
DC>Seems like I won't trade my for yours. You can borrow mine to
DC>help you find your pen, though.
KW> How old is your daughter? Mine is three and a half, and in that
KW> terribly 'intense' stage.
Mine's 13, and in that terribly 'intense' stage! (Certain things
just don't seem to change, just get older....)
... Eskimo Proverb: He who hestitates is FROST!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Ad Kuiken
|Date: 20 Feb 96 15:45:00
EID:dd4a 20547da0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-18-96 16:43, Judith Bandsma got back to All
JB> We just received word that Leo's cousin, Ad Kuiken, died yesterday.
Sorry to hear that, Judith.
JB> a teenager. He made it to age 39 and was living in an apartment in
JB> Amersfoort, an assisted living situation.
Sounds like he really toughed it out to the end.
JB> Ad died at his computer, answering mail. His roommate/caretaker sent
JB> the mail packet before calling for help. Way to go, Ad.
It seems like Ad would have wanted it that way. I'm glad that he
beat the odds for as long as he did.
JB> ... tot ziens, mijn vriend.
^^^^^^^^^
Got the last part, but could you translate the first 2 words for me?
In any event, my condonlences.
... At times like this, all you can say is, "I'm sorry..."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Religious Experience
|Date: 20 Feb 96 20:43:00
EID:edf9 2054a560
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 18:37, Preston Simpson got back to J.j. Hitt
JH> Don't forget pro-poverty, pro-illiteracy and pro-abuse.
JH> Amd pro-infant mortality due to inadequate pre- and post-natal care
JH> (it's not a concern of theirs if the child dies outside the womb).
PS> And we wonder why the US infant mortality rate is so high.
If you need it, I may still have the post about infant mortality
in various societies. The US is, if not the worst, near the
worst of so-called 1st world countries.
... Tagline Deleted: Nothing funny about this shit.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Spong Has Sprung
|Date: 20 Feb 96 20:48:00
EID:f6a3 2054a600
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 09:49, Marilyn Burge got back to Masochistic Maiden
-> Re: Subject Headers
MM> the subject header when the conversation drifts?
MB> We are big on giving a damn about subject lines. I've seen
Shouldn't that be "don't give a damn"?
MB> SPONG ON THE CREEDS now for at least two months after the
See current subject line. With luck, maybe it will soom be
pushing up daisies...
... "What's a 'Subject' line? And why even bother..."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Who cares?
|Date: 20 Feb 96 20:53:00
EID:7199 2054a6a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 08:25, Marilyn Burge got back to Les Wilcox
LW> Would you like to make a $50.00 donation to the ministry so I can
LW> register this copy of Wave Rider? If not I'll just answer you on line
MB> to persue your hobby, then you would be adding fraud to your list
MB> of other crimes, such as theft.
MB> You are a sorry piece of work.
The only sharper thing than your reply is the point on Wilcox's head.
Thanks, Northwest Neighbor!
... If brains were bird droppings, he'd have a clean cage.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: CENSUS
|Date: 20 Feb 96 21:20:00
EID:a746 2054aa80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 22:39, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
MH> I never said the "star" would be visible to everyone. I'm talking
MH> about a flashlight and Dan's talking about a searchlight. What I'm
DC> No, Michael, you are attempting to invoke yet another miracle to
DC> make your story work.
MH> The whole story is of a miracle.
Isn't that nice. When logic fails, invoke yet another "miracle".
Too bad all of those astronomers had missed that "miracle", much
like the missing evidence of the Flood.
DC> Then, Michael, how did Herod know of the birth in Bethlem?
MH> You haven't read the story in a while, have you? The answer to your
MH> question is in Matthew 2: 1-3.
So, these wise magi, upon seeing the messiah, take that little
tidbit of information to the reigning king, allowing the king
to do his wrath on the innocents in Bethlehem. Not very wise
of the magi. You'd have at least thought that they would have
been warned that Herod was going to kill a bunch of kids to
preserve his power. Then, as that was quite common in that
day an age, they, being wise men, would have known that.
... Dead Gods! Onna Stick! Get 'em while they're hot!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: flood
|Date: 20 Feb 96 21:23:00
EID:578f 2054aae0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 22:14, Michael Hardy got back to Sue Alexander
MH> And that's the key question. The very first Christian martyrs would
MH> have known the resurrection was a lie or myth, if in fact it was --
MH> and yet they suffered and died in defense of it.
MH> You're right, many people will lay down their life for a belief or an
^^^^^^
MH> ideal. That is an entirely different thing, though, from claiming
^^^^^
MH> that an event happened and you witnessed some of it, and dying for
MH> refusing to recant that claim.
Seems like Hector's Law is fully functional.
... God is dead. But don't worry - the Virgin Mary is pregnant again.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 20 Feb 96 21:28:00
EID:3d0d 2054ab80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 15:32, Karen Davis got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Are you having a problem with you software?
KD> Thanks for letting me know, Dan. I think what happened was this - I
That's what atheist are for... We do good works!
KD> time. It should only have been 4 or 5 messages total that got duped
and
KD> should not happen again.
KD> Sorry!
No problem... I run a dup-checker that catches most of them, as
does the BBS I access. Didn't quite figure out the problem until
I noticed the different taglines.
Lokk at it this way: At least the Origin line didn't say "ST LOUIS"!
... If you can't laugh, it ain't worth talking about it. :)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 20 Feb 96 21:31:00
EID:691f 2054abe0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 09:47, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> called _The Mind of the Bible Believer_ in which he explains the
MB> Edmund D. Cohen, ISBN 0-87975-495-8, Prometheus Books.
Thanks... Now to find it. Better yet, to find the time to read it!
... Vampire Jesus Fact 1: Jesus wants you to drink his blood, eat his body
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 20 Feb 96 21:33:00
EID:b57d 2054ac20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-18-96 18:45, Michael Hardy got back to Marilyn Burge
MB> There's a book written by a fellow who has two Ph.D's -- one in
MB> law, the other in Jungian psychology. He wrote a wonderful book
MH> He sounds like a condescending twit.
Have your read his book? Better yet, have you ever met the
author in person?
Doesn't your book say, "judge not, lest thee be judged"?
... Heresy n. Freedom of thought.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: persevere
|Date: 20 Feb 96 21:42:00
EID:4a29 2054ad40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892A0E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-18-96 13:02, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> country - especially a parliamentarian one, in which leaders wield
SA> far more potential power than presidents do.
SA> Basically, if the PM's party has a majority government, he's bound
SA> to get his way, since members of parliament will tend to vote
SA> along party lines.
That's similar to what happens down here.
SA> rubber-stamping factory, and it's very rare that they kill any
SA> bill passed by the House of Commons. Shit, we just had a bill
Is it similar to the Parliamentary system in the UK? If so, just
how often are elections held? Are they regular? If I'm not
mistaken, a "vote of no confidence" results in a new election,
regardless of term of the PM.
SA> are few and far between; in my 27 years, there has only been ONE
SA> federal referendum, and that about altering the constitution to
SA> give Quebec and First Nations a bunch of concessions. (It was
Here, that happens much more often.
SA> voted down.) And even if the public says "No" on a referendum, a
SA> government may go ahead and do whatever it wants anyway (though
Definitely not that way here....
SA> (the public) to do shit; fortunately, the next government can
SA> change everything back again. (One of the federal Liberal Party's
Sounds a lot less stable than her. Major changes in law quite
often require Supreme Court approval, even if the law was passed
by an overwhelming majority in both houses and signed by the
president into law.
SA> Plus ca change, plus ca le meme chose.
^^^^^^^^^^
"the same"?
... Americans are guaranteed all the justice they can afford!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Gwenny The Pooh
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: woe to the sinners > it was either just Wild's hard work or all those green candles I
GTP>> burned in December. Anyway, adding that to the raise I get as
GTP>> being a new manager trainee, and we are back among the financially
GTP>> solvent.
AS> Congratulations, Gwenny. I actually even considered praying about your
AS> situation with Human Services and all, but knew you would take it ill.
But
Actually, dear, I wouldn't if it was you. You would pray for things that
were in my best interests. I object to folks praying that their god will
rape my mind and turn by into a zombie believer.
AS> I'm glad things are working out financially with you.
Me, too. I was starting to doubt the strength of my own will. BTW,
got a "new" car. Called it Xeper. It works just about as well as my will
has lately.
AS> BTW, if you can see this, please respond. I'm trying a different
AS> BBS and seeing if that is my trouble.
Yeppers, got it. Thanks.
AS> ... The world is coming to an end -- please log off.
The world can't be coming to an end. I STILL haven't managed to get the
bread home unsquashed from the grocery store.
hugs and snuggles,
Gwenny
... It's not the size of the wand, but the Magick in it!
--- GoldED/386 2.50+
* Origin: The Point at Pooh Corner (1:128/203.2)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Gender
|Date: 20 Feb 96 07:17:09
EID:d27a 20543a20
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 129c6440
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 31274501
Hello Lynda, and Judith too!
Lynda Bustilloz wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
MM> Tell me Judith, is it an urban legend that most business
MM> interest in USA is owned by women? One comes across this
MM> statement now and again, always presented as a fact.
LB> Really? We don't hear that one here in the States. It's
LB> always interesting to hear the rumor going around the rest
LB> of the world. In Germany, it was assumed that we were all
LB> from Texas, owned horses and were millionaires. (G)
MM> If this is so, there should be no economic reason why
MM> women could not run for political office, should they so desire.
LB> I'm wondering what they call "business" -- it may well be
LB> that the majority of HOME business are run by women, if you
LB> include such concerns as tupperware and babysitter...but
LB> that isn't the sort of business that brings power, prestige,
LB> or vast wealth. Corporations -- the kinds with money to
LB> spend on political candidates -- are still largely run and
LB> owned by men.
No, I was not referring to "small home businesses" - the story
goes that the majority of shares in BIG business is actually
owned by the "blue rinse widows", simply due to the early demise
of wealthy and stressed husbands. This is something I have read
in business sections of newspapers from several places in the
world over the last 20 years - and it did not look like idiotic
misconceptions.
I am not claiming neither pro nor contra, just wondering if maybe
frustrated, active, and independent small business women are not
laying the blame for lack of progress at the wrong place. Perhaps
the mom and granny generation is the real culprit (?)
These youngish women were obviously not only discouraged from
obtaining their full intellectual potential in their formative
years, but even today their own moms/grannies may deprive them
of reasonable business support by closing their ears to appeals
for economic equality.
Maybe it is more a battle of the generations than of the sexes?
Until quite recently even white women here in South Africa were
considered "minors" in many ways (even though they did have the
vote). A woman could not establish a bank account without her
husband's approval and signature (sic). There was however a way
out (if you were foresighted enough): you did NOT marry in the
usual "community of property" way, but signed an antenuptial
contract which made you responsible for your own deeds. Naturally
you then had to drag this document around with you to prove you
were "your own mistress"
How different we are all over the world - even in the western world
where superficially we seem alike.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 19 Feb 96 19:26:29
EID:b4a6 20539b40
MSGID: 1:207/212 61d26166
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dca
On (16 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to David Worrell...
AM> I have no idea how many unborn infants die before birth. 1/2 seems
AM> high.
AM> Attributing these deaths to God is inflammatory rhetoric. Can I
AM> attribute
AM> all the successful births to the blessing and goodness of God?
1/3 to 1/2 is the usual medically given number for spontaneous
abortions.
You and your Christian friends *already* attribute all successful births
to God, so you've got to accept the other side of that coin.
... Noah saved the animals from the flood by ARCing them.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 19 Feb 96 19:30:41
EID:8fa4 20539bc0
MSGID: 1:207/212 ba78bcc7
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dcf
On (16 Feb 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Don Martin...
AM> The unconditional love is manifest in His Son paying for our aquittal.
AM> If a Governor offered you a pardon and you rejected it, would you
blame
AM> the Governor for sending you back to jail?
Yes, if I were innocent or did not recognize the authority to put me in
jail in the FIRST place.
The governor also pardons without a cost, doesn't s/he?
... One if by Land, Two if by Sea, 11000101 by E-mail.
--- PPoint 1.92
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIO
|Date: 18 Feb 96 08:48:00
EID:3aa0 20524600
AS> Not. But then, Israel fell away from Jehovah several times,
AS> and God still labored to bring Israel back and save it.
JP> And, after much warning, ancient Israel was destroyed.
Yes indeed. So if the papacy is doomed, there is nothing we can do to
avert it, if it is God's will.
So perhaps we should leave this to God.
JP> Therefore his calamity will come suddenly;
JP> Instantly he will be broken, and there will be no healing.
JP> Prov. 6:15
JP> A man who hardens his neck after much reproof
JP> Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy.
JP> Prov. 29:1
That second one demands one be flexible after being reproved. A good
lesson for ALL of us, John.
... I've had a bad day,I feel like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 4.00F2
* Origin: Silver Xpress Mail System (1:116/3000)
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARILYN BURGE
|Sub: ATHEIST HYPOCRISY
|Date: 18 Feb 96 09:01:00
EID:15aa 20524820
MB> Mikey is reaching for straws, anyway. If Styx had an evaluation
MB> copy that he was supposed to register after 30 days, and he spent
MB> a week on vacation after he installed it, he would be right on
MB> the line on day 37. And, given that he could have mailed in his
MB> registration paperwork and check and not received the floppy back
MB> that contains the registered version. . . .
True.
MB> Of course, all this misses the obvious; 37 days is one helluva
MB> long way from 200-some-odd, and Styx isn't bragging about having
MB> an absolute frame of reference for his morals, as the fundies do.
What?
MB> So long as a person doesn't brag about having the moral high-road,
MB> I see no double standard involved, even if Styx has been using
MB> unregistered software for two THOUSAND days.
WHAT??????
MB> That's not to say, of course, that it would be morally proper,
MB> just that I don't see a double standard.
(Open mouth, close mouth, open mouth.) Oh. So since nontheists have no
absolute frame of reference to refer against, then there is NO hypocrisy
involved?
Hmmm. For months I have been saying that nontheists can be every bit as
moral as theists, and that there is not necessarily any difference.
Sorry for you to prove me wrong.
... Common sense isn't really all that common.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: ATHEIST HYPOCRISY
|Date: 18 Feb 96 09:03:00
EID:7ad1 20524860
SA> I haven't seen atheists claiming that the act of using shareware
SA> beyond cutoff date is wrong. What I've seen is atheists pointing
SA> out that doing so is a violation of the fundy commandment which
SA> deals with theft. The only double standard is therefor, that of
SA> the fundy who bootlegs.
MH> Then you admit, along with Brian Kolacy, that there is no reason for
MH> atheists to be moral, other than their personal choice to be.
MH> Two confirmations of what I've always thought (and what I and other
MH> Christians have been publicly berated for daring to say.) I'll note
MH> that down.
Me too.
... Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: BLINDED ME WITH SCIENCE..
|Date: 18 Feb 96 09:41:00
EID:2e2f 20524d20
RS> We have presented you with plenty of evidence. You just chose to
RS> _ignore_ it.
TR> Jeez... who does *that* sound like...
MH> Hector, in his discussions with Al. (With Hector guilty of what Jim
MH> is accused of.)
NO!!!! You don't mean it!!!
... No sense in being pessimistic--- it won't work anyway.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 18 Feb 96 10:11:00
EID:324e 20525160
AS> I wish I could find a way to argue with you on this one, because half
AS> the fun of this echo is a good argument. But I agree. Some atheists
AS> die serene deaths. Isaac Asimov died wanting to be Isaac Asimov to the
AS> end, and thought he knew there was no afterlife. Some theists die
AS> extremely bitter deaths, of excrutiating pain and die in the throes
of
AS> despair at the pain. Of course, they aren't the ONLY ones. "My God,
my
AS> God, why have you forsaken me!" was the terrible cry at Golgotha. "I
AS> thirst..." He moaned. Jesus didn't die serenely. He died a messy,
AS> miserable death.
JP> Be that as it may, Jesus death impressed a Roman soldier
JP> in a way that shows Jesus's death wasn't the "same"
JP> as the death of most men. By a long shot.
Many deaths can be inspirational, John, from PAtrick Henry to Thomas More
to the Bab. (More was sainted by the Catholic Church.) I'm glad that the
centurion could detect the worth of Jesus, but obviously most of the
witnesses didn't. The Resurrection for me, is the validating part.
... MEGAHERTZ: When something is really painful.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 18 Feb 96 10:19:00
EID:f320 20525260
MG>> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild
MG>> assed guess by some scientist?
AS> How many scientists do we need?
MG> Only one....with evidence.
Question, Marty. And this is a serious question. I have stated many times
that I don't hold the anthropic coincidences as conclusive evidence, but
many instances of contributory evidence.
Suppose some process made bones as susceptible to corruption as flesh.
So that we would have no fossil record to validate evolution. Now suppose
Darwin THEN came along with a logical explanation of why species appear
or
disappear, with evolution, but could not produce a fossil record to
validate such.
Do you think there is any way he could have convinced the scientific
world of the truth of evolution? Could he have done it with the sheer
logic alone, with the argument of passing generations adapting to
conditions and the fittest surviving?
Just curious. (Oh, lest I be misunderstood, the world I am postulating
would be like ours in every way except for the fossil record. I AM
postulating a world where the lifeforms are formed by straightforward
evolution.)
... Entropy always wins.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: FIDO FOLLIES
|Date: 18 Feb 96 10:26:00
EID:83c0 20525340
AS> Wonderful. I'll be glad when (A) Fido starts working again up to
AS> snuff
DW> Whaddya mean *again*?
There's that. But at least most people here could read most of my
messages. Now Hardy, Ceppa, Burge, and the various Michiganites think I
have dropped off the face of the Earth.
I'll tell you what, though. I can probably eliminate YOUR problem,
anyway. The next post I see from Zayd (he left a message that he had so
many messages on this and other echoes that he was going to bow out for
a
little while until he got caught up...nothing spectacular), I'll repost
it
to you. I seem to be RECEIVING everybody fine.
... The Illuminati do not exist. Really. We're not kidding.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: BRIAN KOLACY
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 18 Feb 96 10:35:00
EID:8961 20525460
A S> BK> I diagree. Christ just had good PR. In fact, he could have
AS> BK> been a totally fictitious historical character. Like King
AS> BK> Arthur, for instance...
AS> Who really existed in the sixth century, Arthurius, dux bellorum, a
AS>sort of celtic commander-in-chief in times of war. Sir John Rhys,
AS>among others, has established it beyond reasonable doubt. True, his
AS>legendry got outrageous, and many of the source documents were
AS>written many centuries after the original happened, when you would
AS>expect additions to accrue. (Merlin,interestingly enough, appears to
AS>have been a poet who lived fifty years away from Arthur's time, in
AS>another court.)
BK> Well, I stand corrected. Still, it works well as a comparison (if not
BK> even better).
Sure. Of course, the difference is that the first myths about Arthur are
several centuries afterwards, in the Welsh Mabinginon and others,
the first mention of miraculous happenings. (And of course it happened in
the nadir of the Dark Ages, when barbarism was everywhere and learning and
historykeeping were few and far between.) With Jesus, the first mention
of
a Resurrection is Paul's some twenty years after the fact (circa 55 AD)
and probably several of the gospels were around the same time. So make the
comparision if you want, but you might be struck more by the differences
rather than the similarities. (However, there is certainly Christian
legendmaking---we see it in the Grail, originally the Cauldron of ---of--I
HATE losing so many reference books in the fire!--Arwayn, I believe. Or
the legend of the Wandering Jew.
... I agreed to suspend disbelief, not hang it 'til it died!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: FUNDAMENTALIST ARE IN
|Date: 18 Feb 96 12:04:00
EID:09af 20526080
AS> Where IS His Church? You put down the Catholics, certainly. The
AS> Protestants, for cowtowing to them. Where IS the Church, John?
JP>
JP> Sprinkled out all over the world.
Yet not hiding their light, surely.
JP> "The guy" claims to rule Jesus's Church.
AS> He claims to lead the Catholics, JUST AS, say,
AS> my elders claim to lead my church. [---------]
JP>
JP> From- 1994 'Catechism of the [Roman] Catholic Church
JP> [pg 234 paperback] [my emphasis]
JP> [882] The 'Pope', Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the
JP> perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the
JP> bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman
JP> Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor
of
JP> the entire Church has FULL, SUPREME, and UNIVERSAL power over the
JP> whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
JP> -END QUOTE-
But of course papal infallibility was not needed as a doctrine to shore
up
papal power until the last century or two. When the pope had the most
power, people could disagree with him. Dante put a couple of Popes he
disliked in Hell. (At least his literary version of same.)
... A child educated only at school is an uneducated child. - Santayana
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: RE: HI
|Date: 18 Feb 96 12:13:00
EID:a157 205261a0
HP> KW> It can't be proven, and it can't be measured, but those of us that
use
HP> KW> it swear by it (literally).
HP>And precisely what evidence (keep the proof) do you have that distinguishes
HP>this "magick" from, say, simple delusion?
HP>If you have none, then sorry -- don't believe you.
KW> Hector, I don't care if you don't believe. That's simply not a factor
KW> for me. Sorry, no offence meant, but I never intended to convince you
KW> of anything. I was asked a question. I answered it. And if you are
KW> looking for special effects, go to ILM.
(Applause.)
... The problem isn't ignorance but the illusion of knowledge.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JASON BALLARD
|Sub: PAGANISTIC FOLLOWERS
|Date: 18 Feb 96 12:53:00
EID:f0ea 205266a0
-=> Quoting Jason Ballard to All <=-
JB> For all those who are of the name Pagan, those who defy the
JB> right of god and and of heaven and of hell, those who believe in the
JB> Earth and those who believe that it is the mother which gave us birth,
JB> stand together to take what is rightfully ours. We were born pagans
to
JB> the world, your god killed our people, your christian ways plagued are
JB> nations and killed our people so long ago, this I can not forgive or
JB> forget, your religious beliefs make me sick. Religion is the hate of
JB> the world, people fight over stupid wars and stupid gods that don't
Anybody else see the unconscious irony here? Saying that he cannot forgive
or forget, yet saying religion is the hate of the world?
JB> merely exist, only a vision to them, something they can believe in
JB> that isn't really there fighting along with them, thousands die over
JB> religious wars everyday, hate and unity has formed in churches,
JB> religion has changed so drastically within the past hundred years who
JB> knows what the truth and who knows whats a lie? Who follows a man who
JB> makes us suffer in life, so many people, who are so worse off then you
JB> and I who pray for forgiveness and pray to free and to live a healthy
JB> life, look at all the sick and the dying does the world have
JB> forgiveness upon us, no, we are not creatures under god, or of anyman
JB> we are natural living breathing creatures like everyone else and like
JB> every animal, nature has created us to live the earth to carry on our
JB> kind, our species, not to rise above nature, and try to prove that man
JB> is superior to all, man has even tried to rise above god himself! And
JB> your issues on religion don't change a thing to the world, your
JB> churches invest money they say that benefits the poor which is a load
JB> of crock, you put on stunts to fascinate people with your farsey, and
JB> with your false indictions, you give your life to a lie, you lie to
JB> yourselves, you can't believe in a god, don't let god take you by the
JB> hand, you are who are and thats all you ever need to be, we are all
JB> equal we need no god to lead us we have our hearts to show the way,
we
JB> have changed from our original selves, and believe me if your
JB> ancestors knew you know they'd think your all insane fools.. Your
JB> ancestors once believed in Paganistic ways, the beliefs of Greek
JB> Legends, Norse Mythology, Celtic legends, Indian stories, all sorts
of
JB> stories we've grown up with what makes them any different from that
of
JB> god? You say there is proof? The only proof to see is through the
JB> words of another man, and words sometimes don't mean a thing.. I am
JB> not driving you away from your beliefs I am truly only asking you to
JB> be what you already are a living breathing creature, and don't follow
JB> in such feeble minded ways. We were born pagans all in the beginning,
JB> then Olav the great and the other christians killed our kind, killed
JB> your ancestors family and told them to believe or you will die.. If
I
JB> were alive back then I would kill every christian that came upon me,
I
JB> have spoken as well as the other pagan believers, the earth is your
JB> home, its rivers and streams, and your father was not god.. Your
JB> father and mother are the earth.. For when we die, we will be reborn
JB> again, until then may we meet in the next life...
Thanks, but I'm hoping to go to a new place, rather than a rerun here.
Been there, done that.
Jason, if you would like to talk about it rationally, I would be happy
to. There are many Wiccans here who I like and respect, and I have a
Wiccan friend. I AM Christian, though, so I don't want to go under false
pretenses. I do not regard earth/Nature as my mother, but a sister
creation...sometimes laughing, sometimes wayward, always to be respected,
but not to be worshipped.
... I walk the fine line between fantasy and science fiction.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: ALAN HESS
|Sub: RE: QUESTIONS? ABOUT _WH
|Date: 18 Feb 96 12:58:00
EID:9f48 20526740
AS> You want to make a more bigoted statement? Or can you? Can anybody?
Saying
AS> such to a Moslem is equivelent to thinking every Christian is Torquemada.
AS> Not every Moslem is the Ayatollah Khomemi. Don't be so provincial.
AH> Not every Muslim is Louis Farrakhan, either, which is fortunate, as
AH> Screwy Louie is running around the sleazy parts of the Muslim Middle
AH> East telling Khaddafi and whichever fanatic currently heads Iran that
AH> Muslims will bring down the Great Satan, aka the U.S. Louie wants
AH> money from terrorist-sponsors (who kill black Americans as well as
AH> white Americans) to help fund his Nation of Islam cult.
I wasn't aware that Farrakhan was that far gone, but yes, I noticed with
interest his bigoted statements against Jews. It's sad to see others
espousing hate to others who have historically felt it themselves.
... Tagline deleted -- Nothing funny about this.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: THE FIRE
|Date: 18 Feb 96 13:24:00
EID:e3d2 20526b00
AS> Well, this is what I get for liking an echo called Holy
AS> SMOKE.... First off, I would like to thank Dave Worrell for
MG> When I heard about this, I tried to think if I had an internet address
MG> for you, but no. I thought that I would call your town's directory
But since I was home and computerless, an Internet address wouldn't have
done much good until I came to work the next Monday. In fact, I was
working on a web page, that I was just about to upload.
MG> assistance but realized that I didn't know what city you lived in.
Nashville. Home of country music, which no native Nashvillian listens to,
we just take the money.
MG> Oh, well...as long as nothing was damaged that was important...except
MG> your pride. :-)
Well, there was a day or so where I was practically without clothes, since
most of ours burned up...
Good news about the computer, though. Though unrecoverable (the whole
front is melted off) 8 megs of RAM are recoverable AND though the hard
drive is damaged and wouldn't last a month if they transferred it to
another casing, the files are still readable, so they are going to xcopy
it to another pc. I think I'm going with a used system from a friend who
is going to upgrade, which I can buy for about half the cost which I
originally bought my system and, adding to my RAM, have more memory than
we did. So, it'll work out. At least I haven't lost anything, and won't
have to redesign my web page or anything. (Not that that's hard, but I
would have to look up all the links etc.). Probably get the system this
upcoming Saturday (writing this in the 19th.).
... I've had a bad day,I feel like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: RYAN SHAW
|Sub: THE FIRE
|Date: 18 Feb 96 13:26:00
EID:069c 20526b40
AS> Well, this is what I get for liking an echo called Holy
AS> SMOKE.... First off, I would like to thank Dave Worrell for
RS> I'm happy that no one was hurt, and that your back in action here.
RS> Take care of yourself, and your family.
RS> :)
Count on it, Ryan. Thanks.
... Why do people with money tell poor people that money isn't everything?
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 18 Feb 96 13:52:00
EID:e160 20526e80
KW> Mike, most of the 'miracles' ascribed to Jesus are copied from older
KW> myth structures. Compare his death and resurrection with that of the
KW> Mythric cycle. Jesus was simply another Corn King. Re-writing the
KW> legend to fit the gospels just isn't that impressive.
I suppose one might think my wife is just another of the many sexual
fantasies I have had since adolescenthood. But no, she is the culmination
of them, the reality which I was seeking with the various fantasies.
Similarly, the Corn King myths, from Osiris to Balder, compared to the
historical figure Jesus.
... Carpe DM: Seize the Dungeon Master.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 18 Feb 96 14:00:00
EID:2c7a 20527000
JP> Never mind they tell the world that the ruler
JP> of Jesus's people is a man in Rome called the pope.
AS> If I disagree with them on that (and I do) it does not affect
AS> my opinion on their willingness to work for Christ's goals.
JP> You're as silly as if a guy in WWII said it didn't matter
JP> whether American soldiers obeyed Patton or obeyed Rommel.
Well, actually we are like members of, say, the French underground. And
we
have two people claiming to be agents sent by Patton, and no way to get
back to Patton to confirm it. We have to judge them by the content of
their messages and their conduct. We also have to be cognizant, since, we
CANNOT contact Patton, not to execute one of them--in case they are the
true one and we are wrong about which one is right.
AS> LARGEST GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO AVOW TO FOLLOW CHRIST IN THE WORLD!!!
JP> Roman Catholics follow the pope.
They avow to follow Christ. To follow Peter's lineal successor, to whom
Jesus entrusted the church. Do I think they do so too blindly? Someimes.
JP> YOU deny the papal claims are true, but
JP> YOU are not honest enough to confess RC's
JP> are an example of the "blind following the blind."
I think many churches, Roman Catholic or no, will be berated at the
Judgement.
JP> YOU are worried about the sensibilities of Roman Catholics.
Yep. Because such divisive polemics in my experience just tend to make
someone more outraged. There is a guy called Tony Alamo who runs his own
cult, and one of his main tenets is about how evil the Catholic Church is.
If anything, he makes YOU look mild on that subject. There was a guy
putting fliers in windshields on our grocery store parking lot, and he
handed one to Barb (My wife). Barb read it for a minute, ran up to him,
and tore it to pieces in front of him, and started cussing him out for
spreading such hate unasked on people's windshields. He was quite funny,
too--"You're tearing up the Word of God". "I'm tearing up bits and pieces
of the King James Bible that Alamo is misusing, JERK!"
JP> Christians are seeking to persuade people to heed Jesus
JP> and thereby avoid an eternity in a lake of fire.
Which I don't think spreading hate is a good way to do so, John.
JP>
AS> Get the two-by-four out of your eye, HYPOCRITE, .....
JP> Get your head outa your ass, DUMMY.
Hmmm. What does Jesus say about calling your brother "fool"?
AS> ..... before you talk about the speck in ours.
AS> And that is VERY Biblical, John. Just ask Jesus.
JP> Adamantly contending against establishment religious leaders
JP> for misrepresenting God and mistreating God's children
JP> is also "VERY Biblical."
It is indeed. And in this instance, I regard you as a religious leader of
one. See how it feels?
BTW, there is also a verse (answering in the time between getting off and
my ride, but I will be able to quote a verse in a few days) about always
having a ready answer to those who question why you have your faith, but
also to give it without malice or rancor, maligning no one.
Can you really equate that with calling someone a "pagan bitch"? Somehow
I don't think it is the way Paul converted the pagans. Yes, I know you
have been the target of names yourself. And I agree with you about the war
Israel waged against one of their own tribes when the concubine was
killed. But there are times where it might be better to verbally turn the
other cheek. Those I don't do so I only do after months of verbal abuse
and trying the other way.
... The right to be free includes the right to be different!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:49:00
EID:30db 20544620
AS> [...] and one of the elders of my church, a college professor,
AS> specializes in studying both history and cults, a Dr. Bill
AS> Gorree.
JH> I'd be interested in knowing how he distinguishes between the two.
He knows about some of them first hand---for instance, he volunteered to
go in and hear the opening pitch from a Scientology lecturer, and
unfortunately the university wouldn't pay for him going deep into it. He
knows many details about the founding of the Mormon religion, and is one
of my main sources for knowledge of the early Church fathers. (As I have
mentioned to Larry, his opinion and Larry's are not that far apart
concerning the legalization of Christianity under Constantine and
Eusebius, which in some ways he regards as one of the worst things that
happened to Christianity). A tall elderly Texan with good humor and
immense reading, we usually have classes on Wednesday night and for Sunday
School where we can learn things that interest us. Bill's classes have
ranged from interpreting Revelation (which is the source of much of what
I have said to John Prewitt on the subject) to the early Church to the
Gnostic movement to the various versions of the Bible, and lectures on the
cultures around Israel that contributed to its mindset. He knows the
original Greek well, and has travelled to Israel, Turkey, much of Europe,
etc. Some of his colleagues contributed to the NIV study Bible. He has
also lectured on other religious paths and the thinking Christian's
response to them. I don't ALWAYS go to his class, but he is always my
default...if nothing else looks interesting, I go to Bill's classes, where
I know I will enjoy myself and learn something.
... "Knowledge is ruin to my young men." -- Adolph Hitler (1889-1945) Germ
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAWN KLEUSER
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:54:00
EID:e94f 205446c0
DK> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like
DK> to hear any stories anyone has about them. No doubt there is a whole
DK> slew of skeptics out there who would love to attack me on this
DK> subject, but I'm not lookin' for a fight. Just wanna swap Angel
DK> experiences. Please respond if you'd like to share, and I will also.
DK> Anyone having a question for me on the subject, please ask away - but
DK> keep in mind that I will not be drawn into an argument over the
DK> existence of Angels. Thanx!
I strongly suggest that your Guardian Angel steer you to another echo. I
have no first hand experiences with angels, and this echo will demand
evidence and if you are not looking for a fight, you might as well log
onto another echo. One called SPIRITUALITY keeps an erudite tone yet does
not really permit flaming. You might try that.
I also might mention C.S. Lewis' advice about demons, and suggest it
applies equally well to angels. That mankind makes two mistakes about such
beings, one, to disbelieve in them, and two, to be too interested in them.
Angels are messengers. It might be better to be more interested in who
they are messengers FOR.
... "Miracles are not so cheap as all that."--Father Brown.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: DETROIT
|Date: 20 Feb 96 10:01:00
EID:298c 20545020
AS> BTW, today is Valentine's Day. How you doing? Has
AS> Asmodiddly had any effect? (Yeah, RIGHT!)
JH> I left your earthly plane at 05:34 on February 14th.
JH> Which means I have been dead for almost two days now.
JH> The record is three. And I plan on doing it at least one
JH> better.
And I see from other messages that you did exceed it. Congratulations!
Now, all you need is a grand entrance...
JH> Actually I'm tempted to stay dead long enough for Asmodiddly
JH> to start crowing about his "great success". I noticed he
JH> stuck his head out of his hole yesterday.
It saddens me more than you know that he read none of the insults I sent
him. (Should have known, he's in Michigan, where Jim Staal couldn't read
my posts.)
Still...whatta maroon!!!
... Operator, trace this call and tell me where I am.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: STEVE QUARRELLA
|Sub: FUNDAMENTALIST ARE IN
|Date: 20 Feb 96 10:14:00
EID:c589 205451c0
AS>> Where IS His Church? You put down the Catholics, certainly. The
AS>> Protestants, for cowtowing to them. Where IS the Church, John?
SQ> My money's on this guy's having been fondled by a priest when John was
SQ> a child.
Not saying it happened, but if it did, it would explain much. Now John may
say "insult noted" but obviously to many of us his animus against the
Catholics is much greater than against, say, Jimmy Swaggert, who similarly
misused God's word.
I must admit I wonder if he was raised Catholic and had a bad
experience, or whether his prejudice is a result of his upbringing by
parents or a church that has a strong anti-Catholic bias. Tony Alamo,
locally, has followers that leave leaflets that make John look as Catholic
as G.K. Chesterton, berating the Catholic Church in even stronger terms.
... Posted by my evil twin, Skippy.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: REDEORHCS LA
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:01:00
EID:fd32 20546820
AS> Staal couldn't receive any messages from me, etc. What a AS> He doesn't
JH> know what a pimply-faced follower of Anton Levay I AS> hold him.
JH> He still has no real idea of where he is.
Or even what he believes.
JH> Don't forget that Asmodeus was the character who with his very
JH> first message in the echo called Larry Sites a Christian.
Yeah, I could feel Larry's blood pressure rise from HERE.
JH> Prewett and Giggle-Scot are intellectual giants compared to him.
Heck, Forrest Gump is an intellectual giant compared to him.
... Necromancers do it loud enough to wake the dead.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: KEITH PACHULSKI
|Sub: THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE A
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:15:00
EID:e78b 205469e0
-=> Quoting Keith Pachulski to The Raven <=-
-> My evidence? Simple: I hold this view of Wicca myself. Sure,
KP> Learn what the word evidence means.....
Jack?
Learn what the word evidence means?
Jack Butler, AKA The Raven is an Indian (Seminole, I believe) and also a
lawyer. Evidence (or lack of it) is his meat and drink.
-> probably inaccurate, but that is how I view it. Most of the people I
-> practicing it are women who are "looking to escape the patriarchal
-> dictatorship of standard religions and tap into the secret, hidden po
-> the female being". (Quote, unquote from Kathryn Hurdt, proud member
-> Wiccan faith.)
->
-> Jack Butler
KP> LOL....ignorance is bliss
Then perhaps you're being orgasmic.
Perhaps it would be more in keeping with your Wiccan principles to ask
before you insult.
I strongly advise it.
... Hell hath no fury like an unjustified assumption.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: THE FIRE
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:24:00
EID:ec0f 20546b00
AS> I also lost most of my paperbacks, which were in bookshelves in
AS> my room...so JJ, I no longer have a complete, or even a partial,
AS> collection of the Fu Manchu stories. I lost my Niven, (except
AS> for Mote in God's Eye), my Farmer, my Clarke, my Heinlein, my
AS> complete Doc Savage collection, many of the Shadow paperbacks
AS> with Steranko covers, etc. Sue Armstrong, I lost my copy of
AS> SCIENCE FICTION TODAY AND TOMORROW. I lost practically all my
AS> Poul Anderson.
JH> [Moment of silence]
JH> You can buy a new computer, but you have to BUILD a library.
Yeah. I have been collecting those off and on for years. There goes my
original Ballantine Adult Fantasy collection. My copies of out-of-print
R.A. Lafferty novels. My Cabell. My Ellison. My David Lindsey. Much of my
Lovecraft and Bloch and Derleth...
MY CORDWAINER SMITH PAPERBACKS!!!!! (Sorry. But that just occurred to
me. And I, practically alone in sfdom, except for Harlan Ellison, hold
that Cordwainer Smith is the greatest sf writer of all time.) My Olaf
Stapledon, including STAR MAKER and SIRIUS and ODD JOHN. My TOLKIEN
READER. My dictionary of Tolkien's languages. Barb lost some of her
Ellisonia, but not all, some of her Stephen King, but not all.
Just things. Things that can be repurchased. But it's like losing a
bunch of old friends in one fell swoop.
... Honest Officer! That cat was on fire when I got here.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: SUE ALEXANDER
|Sub: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:32:00
EID:b9f0 20546c00
DW> I'm also not going to go in for the obvious gag.
AS> I'll do it for you; I was taken off-line by an act of God.
SA> Hmm, what does it say, then, to find you back so quickly?
"The Devil finds work for idle hands to do...".
In the words of the Beatles, "I get by with a little help from my
friends." We're STILL going through all the clothes donated to us by
people at work, at church, from Barb's on-line friends, etc. And it looks
like I may have a home computer system by this upcoming Saturday (writing
this on the 19th.)
SA> Welcome back (even though it may be limited) and best wishes for
SA> a speedy recovery of your housing situation...it sounds as if you have
SA> many wonderful people around you.
I do indeed. It is good to know you are loved so much, when things like
this happen. (Talking about friends locally, although I was touched by
those who called or expressed concern on-line.)
... "We can easily endure adversity. Another man's I mean." -- Twain
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: DAVID WORRELL
|Sub: ASMODOODLEY
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:41:00
EID:e6da 20546d20
A> BTW, if this Al is a friend of JJ please give him my apology. It is
A> very likely he caught some slack of the whip as J.J. got lashed, so to
A> speak. The devils accomplish their work in many ways, not choosing
A> only one path to accomplishing the will of the summoner. It is likely
A> that they also sought out to damage some of JJ's friends, in order to
A> damage him emotionally, as well as performing that which I had wished
A> done. Even when one has great knowledge of them, and excellent oratory
A> capability, it is still quite possible to not be concise enough as to
A> harm those who are not deserving. I believe this may be the case, as
I
A> had invoked Satan a second time in the closing, to help ensure the
A> cooperation of those I summoned, and to add a little strength. It is
A> quite possible that His Infernal Majesty was tired of it all, and just
A> struck the first opportunity he saw, to ensure some measure of
A> success. And if Al is no friend of JJ's, please give him my sympathy
A> for his loss anyway. I am quite
A> sure that means as much as a million dollars to a castaway, but please
A> do so anyhow. It strikes me sad to hear of any family's loss.
DW> It seems you're in deep shit, son.. :)
Hmmm. Maybe I should take back that Asmodiddly had nothing to do with the
fire. Let's see now, a washer and dryer with warranty--oh, $1000. My
computer system cost about $1500 when it was first bought, and I installed
a higher speed modem and more memory. Allow some depreciation on the
system...let's just still call it $1500. shall we? A new bedroom
suite...bed, chest of drawers. We also replaced some other furniture that
smelled of smoke. Two thou, easy. A good $300 worth of food I had to toss
away. ALL my clothes, my wife's clothes, and two-thirds of the kids'
clothes (walk-in closet with laundry room immediately
adjacent...)...several thousand dollars worth, easy. My wedding photos,
my
paperback library, a good half my comic books that I have been collecting
for years....strong sentimental value, if nothing else.
Hmmm. I think my insurance company's lawyers might be interested in
this...if freedom of religion means you cannot make laws against religion,
if a Satanist claims responsibility for damage, shouldn't he be held
accountable for such?
I wonder if any witchcraft laws are still on the books in Michigan? I
wonder if there are any still on the books in Tennessee? I have an uncle
who's a lawyer...maybe I should check with him.
C.S. Lewis once said the reason no one takes witchtrials seriously
anymore is because we don't believe they can DO it. If we really thought
someone could cast a spell and kill someone, and they did it, they would
be held as accountable as anyone who stabbed someone and killed someone.
If Asmodiddly claims responsibility for such, WHETHER HE DID IT OR NOT,
shouldn't he be held legally accountable?
Probably not. But it would be fun trying. (Asmodiddly probably doesn't
have a penny to his name...I wonder if I drag Anton LeVay into this as
misguiding Asmy?)
... I walk the fine line between fantasy and science fiction.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: CONDEMNED BY PREWETT - CA
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:44:00
EID:203c 20546d80
JH> On Jan 27 13:14 96, John Prewett of 1:355/2.1012 wrote:
JP> "Church of Christ" is a religious group that teaches it is
JP> the "one true Church", and teaches one must be "C.of C."
JP> water baptized to be saved.
JP> "C.of C." denies that Jesus can or will currently baptize
JP> anyone in His Holy Spirit [as per Acts], and "C.of C."
JP> denies the Holy Spirit can inspire anyone to be an apostle
JP> or prophet today.
JH> tsk, tsk... and all this time we thought you were a True Christian.
Unfortunately, as is not uncommon, John is taking the precepts of some and
making it a blanket statement for all. But there IS no central authority
for the Church of Christ (i.e., Cambellites) that I belong to, or for that
matter, any Church of Christ. You can be disfellowshipped from a
particular congregation for being disruptive, but you really can't be
banned altogether. For the past four or five years there has been a
Jubilee celebration here in Nashville for Churches of Christ, and some
Churches of Christ boycott it because they don't like the idea of doing
ANYTHING in concert together. (It's an interesting experience, but the
years I've attended, I've volunteered to help look after handicapped
children, mentally or physically, at a church near the downtown convention
center so that parents can attend the convention.)
Anyway, it's great for shopping around--you can find a church
that believes as you believe. But yes, in general, the Cambellites feel
that the time of miracles is over, and the Bible contains all the direct
guidance anyone needs.
... I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: DETROIT
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:53:00
EID:298c 20546ea0
AS> I think the question of your gender has just been answered,
AS> JJ. How many females look at HUSTLER?
JH> I only read it for the cartoons.
JH> They're disgusting, immoral and totally lacking in taste.
JH> I love 'em.
Also available on the Internet from the HUSTLER site, I understand.
(Pause.)
Tell the truth and shame the devil....
Okay, I looked at the HUSTLER site, the PENTHOUSE site, and various
other risque sites. Hey, any male who has Webcrawler or some other Web
search engine will do it at least ONCE. Yes, I feel guilty about it,
yes, I shouldn't have done it, I JUST DID IT, OKAY??? OKAY!!!!
So much for my Boy Scout image...
Anyway, when I looked a few months ago, there was one cartoon a day you
could access. HUSTLER is not really my thing. Back when I was into adult
magazines I liked OUI and PENTHOUSE better, HUSTLER is a little too raw
for my libido, all the romance and fantasy as a gynocological exam.
... No, Taco Bell is NOT the Mexican telephone company!
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: RYAN SHAW
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE PICK YER POISON
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:54:00
EID:2849 20546ec0
RS> If you haven't sent in your entry or you do not see your name on the
RS> list [and you know you're feeling left out], then by all means send
me
RS> your entry!:
RS> - The Unofficial HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison List -
RS> User Stance Favorite Poison
RS> ------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> The Late J.J. Hitt Death Spell Test Site Sugar-laden teeth rotting
RS> cola
RS> Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes' White
RS> Zinfandel Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
RS> Steve Quarrella Atheist Creemore Ale or any
RS> decent porter
RS> John Prewett Sister Lover/Bitch the blood of Christ
RS> Don Martin atheist Lagers, porters and ales
RS> from small breweries
RS> Preston G. Simpson agnostic Malted battery acid
RS> (a/k/a Coke) The ONE, true fag! High balls!
RS> (what else?) :) Lynda Bustilloz Christian/"catty bitch" Coffee,
RS> high-octane Kath. Wintersnight Witch coffee w\c&s,
RS> mead Thomas DelCano Pagan Pervert Fresh Menstrual Blood
RS> Kevin McKenzie Tired Snapple
Al Schroeder Thinking Theist V-8
... OK, I'm weird! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: LYNDA GOES OVER...
|Date: 20 Feb 96 13:56:00
EID:433f 20546f00
JP> However, blaming generic "Christians" for deeds committed
JP> by Roman [pope-led] Catholics is just fine with you.
Well, the Protestants haven't been stainless either, as anyone who has
studied the bloody history of the religious wars of the Reformation will
see...or even knowns the Salem Witch Trials, and the various European
ones, many of which were done by German protestants. The conflict between
the IRA and the Orangemen has been bloody on BOTH sides, also.
JP> And I know that your inability to see [or admit seeing]
JP> the significance of a con-artist in Rome claiming to lead
JP> and RULE Jesus's Church
JP> [claim taken seriously by millions for centuries]
JP> shows your extreme spiritual retardation or corruption,...
Or forgiveness.
AS> Fortunately, neither you and I can judge each other, John. Jesus does.
JP> but it's not my job to judge which problem you have.
It's not your job to judge, John. PERIOD.
AS> [--------] and his JFK-is-Antichrist idea is laughable.
JP> Demonstrating your pathetic blindness regarding God's Revelation,
JP> which you share with avowed heathens,....
JP> like most puffed up [with hot air] liberal "christians."
John, I'm sorry, but it IS A CRACKPOT IDEA. JFK's family and friends are
quite influential and quite widespread. Nobody cracked? Ted Kennedy in his
cups never mentioned that his brother is still alive? (Or was Bobby
Kennedy the only one who knew and was silenced for his pains.) Kennedy if
still alive would be quite old. I'm not sure which came first, your hatred
of Kennedy or your hatred of Catholics, and I don't care. I dislike Nixon
intensely, and I don't think HE'S the Antichirst.
AS> If JFK had been the Antichrist, he would have used the Button and
AS> started an atomic war that put us all in the Stone Age,
AS> all the better to rule us with. Q.E.D.
JP> Your above just demonstrates that your respect for and
JP> understanding the Revelation's description of the final
JP> "beast" is about equal to the average avowed heathens.
*Sigh*. John. When Kennedy was alive, he could have ordered a missle
attack on all the major captital cities around the world. He would have
then moved into the power vacuum. That is the sort of thing I would expect
from the Beast. That is the sort of thing I did NOT observe from Kennedy.
Quite frankly, if Kennedy was powered by Satanic energy, then why did he
bungle so badly on the Bay of Pigs?
BTW, what is your opinion on the space program and the race to the moon,
started by Kennedy?
JP> [Your not agreeing about JFK is completely understandable, but if you
JP> knew much about and believed the Revelation, then you would be wise
JP> enough to know the JFK prediction is not really "laughable."
John, if you said a major religious leader was really the antichrist,or
the beast, I might pay more attention. But Kennedy?
AS> Ludicrously unlikely? The phrase, "deceive the very elect" mean
AS> anything to you?
AS> Now, if someone SAINTED Kennedy, maybe you might have a case.
JP>
JP> As a matter of fact, the mass media virtually "sainted" JFK.
It seems that way in retrospect. Kennedy was not nearly as sainted when
he
was in office as he was in retrospect. He certainly DID have a deft touch
with the media. For that matter, so did FDR, save for packing the Supreme
Court.
JP> Facts that would destroy another celebrity,
JP> are, in JFK's case, given the best possible "spin."
If you are referring to JFK's affairs, of course. So was Eisenhower, who
had one affair, and FDR, who had several. There was a delicacy to their
reporting on the personal foibles of the presidency that seem
incomprehensible to us today, in this post-Watergate era.
JP> Many people know the press gave JFK a "free ride."
JP> Life magazine turned JFK the gangster family playboy
JP> into America's favorite family man.
The "gangster family"? Playboy I can understand, but not that reference.
The Kennedys had been out of the Irish organized crime circles by several
generations. Joseph Kennedy had isolationist leanings that severely
limited his view of Hitler, when he was ambassador, but that seems a
little strong.
JP> It's "laughable" only to people
JP> who are retarded re the Revelation.
Maybe you need a cold glass of reality splashed in your face, John. I told
my wife that I knew someone who thought JFK was not dead but was the
antichirst and/or the Beast of Revelations. She laughed. I mentioned it
to
some fellow churchgoers. THEY laughed. My Sunday school teacher talked
about the many people who have claimed the coming of the Antichrist from
60 AD till now, and shrugged and said, "It's not untypical. We will see
more and more such predictions as we near 2000 AD, and then it will taper
off." My minister is of the opinion that the more such predictions are
made, since it will come in a time "unlooked for", the less likely it is.
These are all believers. Some of them are both church elders and/or church
leaders. I'm glad you think you have some special spiritual insight. But
we will just have to wait upon the time to see who is right, won't we?
AS> I will simply wait upon the times, thanks. [----------]
JP> If you're as smart as you think you are, you'll ease off
JP> on the scornful attitude while you're waiting.
Scornful? I think you are mistaken. I do think you are picking an
individual in history who is very UNLIKELY to be the antiChrist/Beast. I
do think it laughable, much as if someone told me Elvis was the
antiChrist/beast (who had the adulation of millions, whom there is a
church started recently, whom there are speculations that he is risen
again.) Many would (and do) regard my conviction that Jesus rose from the
dead as EQUALLY laughable, and express it quite forthrightly in this echo.
I don't worry about it. And you shouldn't either. If you are right, and
I
am wrong, than certainly time will tell. Do not mistake the laughter I aim
at your idea (which quite frankly I see as an anti-Catholic/anti-Kennedy
bias which is apparent to everyone on the echo except you) for laughter
at
you yourself. I think you personally are mistaken. Nothing more.
JP> However, those forgiven much will love much.
Yes. And the emphasis must be on the loving.
AS> ......... I think the end of the world, when it comes, WILL come
AS>in a form totally unlooked for, yet consistent with the predictions...
JP> World famous "terrible head wound" .......
JP> World famous connection to the "Great Whore"
JP> World famous, making "amazed the world" feasible
All of which fits quite a few individuals throughout history, and thus
have been the subject of many predictions of being the antiChrist/Beast.
JP> Christians should be able to identify the "G.W."
Quite a few sincere, convinced Christians do not identify the whore with
the Catholic Church, John.
JP> Christians should see that JFK is uniquely
JP> "consistent with the predictions."
But he isn't. There have been many famous kings who are connected with the
Catholic Church who have been far more famous than Kennedy. The Black
Prince of chivalric fame was Catholic, suffered head wounds in battle, and
whose victories against the French amazed the world, for instance. I think
the Black Prince's fame will live on in the chronicles of Froissant and
others long after Kennedy is as forgotten as the average Pharoah.
Nostradamus won reknown by predicting a death of a king of France, in a
head wound in a "cage of gold"---and the king died by a death blow in a
practice joust that went right through the eye and into the brain, a
remarkable prediction that made Nostradamus' career. (Of course, if you
make ten thousand predictions, one or two will hit home by sheer luck.)
No
one is predicting that King---a Catholic King, mind you--of coming back
as
the antichrist. Many popes have supposedly fit the description.
AS> ..... just as the Jews were too busy looking for the priest-king
AS> -David they were expecting to recognize Jesus for what He was.
JP> Yep.
JP>
JP> IOW- to heathens and modern liberal "christians."
JP> You're presently on about the same level as a scripturally literate
JP> Jew of Jesus's generation who contended that Jesus's claim of
JP> fulfilling the "Messiah" prophetic description was "laughable."
Possibly. On the face of it, it did look odd. But then, He was
resurrected, and proved it. There are no words of condemnation to Thomas
for not believing, just said others might be more blessed for believing
without such proof.
AS> Possibly, very possibly.
AS> But we will have to see what happens, won't we?
JP> To know for POSITIVE, yes.
Yes. I will wait upon the time.
AS> Well, quite frankly, I think the Roman Empire
AS> and Roman Emperors are closer to the reality there. [-----]
JP> Quite frankly, I think you think that because the truth
JP> threatens your smug contentment with the status quo.
Could be. Or could it be perhaps because the Roman Emperors instituted
many persections, including the Great Persecution, in which one could be
tortured or killed on the suspicion of being a Christian, without trial.
JP> Just like Jesus's fulfillment was invisible to status quo loving
JP> Israelites of that generation.
AS> Could be. [------------------]
JP> Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him,
JP> but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him,
JP> lest they should be put out of the synagogue; John
JP> 12:42
JP> "They will make you outcasts from the synagogue,
JP> but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you
JP> to think that he is offering service to God. John
JP> 16:2
JP> Jesus's TRUTH will separate one from what is commonly known
JP> as organized "christian" religion, liken to back then.
JP> "For the word of God is living and active.
JP> Sharper than any double-edged sword,
JP> it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;
JP> it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
JP> Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight.
JP> Everything is uncovered and laid bare
JP> before the eyes of him to whom we must give account." Heb.
JP> 4:12-13
Exactly. And the Word tells me to "judge not lest ye be judged" and that
it will come in "a time unlooked-for"--Jesus' second coming, that is.
JP> Re.Lynda- Maria Russell never launched any personal slanders to
JP> deserve the following from Lynda to heathens ]
JP> [--------------------------------------------]
MR> [--------------------------------------------]
LB> Maria, have you seriously pondered anything of more importance than
LB> what shade of nailpolish will match your outfit in recent years?
AS> They certainly don't get along. And I think that is mainly because
AS> Lynda sees in Maria's attitudes the SAME sort of attitude that got her
AS> BEATEN and RAPED by her ex. If she takes it more personally than we
AS> do...well, maybe she has a reason to.
JP>
JP> That is so very lame.
Maybe you would think differently if you had ever been beaten or raped.
Or
have you? Someone has speculated in this packet that you might have been
molested by a priest. I do not say you were. But it would certainly
explain your animus. No shame is attached to it if you were, of course.
I
don't want to enrage you, but your anti-Catholic bias is so apparent,
others are asking, so I think it more honest to ask you to your "face".
Have you ever had a strongly disagreeable incident with a member of the
Roman Catholic faith? Were you perhaps raised in that faith? Just curious.
Sincerely wanting to understand.
JP> ------------------------ SNIP --------------------------
MR> As an obedient wife I would have to listen. ...........
LB> Bwahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maria admits she has no life!!
AS> Read above again. 1. Maria's husband hypothetically implores Maria to
AS> get a life. 2. As an obedient wife she has to listen, in her view, and
AS> so, those words have never crossed her husband's lips...indicating
AS> that she does not have a life. (Because if those words had crossed her
AS> husband's lips, she would have a life.) 3. Lynda points out the
AS> obvious. It's Maria's own words which imply what Lynda pointed out.
JP>
JP> Maria's cruel scorn for a Christian women who is proudly an
JP> "obedient wife" is to be expected from scripture despising
JP> HEATHENS.
You deleted the line above, where they speculated if Maria's husband told
her to get a life, would she? So, if she answers, "as an obedient wife,
I
would have to listen" then that implies she does not have one NOW. It is
the same sort of logical trap if one is asked "Have you stopped beating
your wife" and one does an unequivocal "yes." Which implies, "Yes, I have
stopped beating my wife." It is the sort of thing that happens in
echomail, by people not quick enough to pick up the implications of what
they are saying. She is laughing at Maria's mistake of admitting she
hasn't a life, which she was tricked into by implication, rather than
being an "obedient wife".
JP> Your agreement with Lynda's heathenish analysis is noted.
Where are you keeping all these notes on me, BTW?
John, I am far luckier in the woman I love than I deserve. And I cherish
her greatly, and believe me, she is not a meek servant, but a fiery
personality. Quite frankly, I CAN make her do what I want to do, if I want
to. I can last out any tirades, I can be quite implacable on the important
things. Luckily, it is rarely if ever necessary. On the great things, we
agree. When we argue, it is almost always on the small things. And part
of
my "submitting unto each other" is to know when to give way on the small
things that do not matter. I do NOT want a yes-woman. I want a fiery,
talented, bewildering, maddenning, beautiful and interesting woman like
my
wife.
And that is who I am lucky enough to have. And will be married to come
sixteen years this May.
... When men lack a sense of awe, there will be disaster. -- Lau Tzu
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: AL SCHROEDER
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: RE: SILLY FUNDY CLAIMS
|Date: 20 Feb 96 14:01:00
EID:202b 20547020
AS> True, IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THE NT DOCUMENTS (for the most
AS> part) REPRESENT ACTUAL HISTORY. Not necessarily the
AS> miracles, but the disciples dying or being whipped for their
AS> assertions.
JH>
JH> Can you provide Biblical references for this claim?
JH> I know that Paul and Peter were beaten and whipped,
JH> but as best I can recall the stoning of Stephan is
JH> the only martrdom detailed in the New Testiment.
JJ, I'm answering this at work before my ride, so I don't have it exactly
before me, but I know the martyrdom of James, John's brother, is in Acts,
as is all the disciples being called before the Sanhedrin, the Sanhedrin
wanting to kill them, Gamiliel calming them down, so instead they got a
flogging. ALL of them. All in Acts. (And of course, Josephus records the
death of James, the head of the Jerusalem church and Jesus' brother, who
was supposed to have witnessed Jesus after Resurrection.).
James the apostle was killed by one of the Herods as an example, and it's
later in Acts, when Luke was mainly talking about Paul's jounrneys, I
believe.
(I'm not one of those who can memorize chapter and verse in the Bible,
but my memory for incidents is pretty good.)
Hope that will help you find it. Look for Gamiliel's speech to the
Sanhedrin, that "if this movement be not of God, it will die out, if it
is
of God, it will endure" or words to that effect. Probably about one-third
of the way through Acts, when he was mainly talking about Peter's work.
... Flog 'em if they can't take a joke!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 18 Feb 96 08:42:57
EID:15c6 20524540
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-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Andrew Masten <=-
MG>> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild
MG>> assed guess by some scientist?
AM> Yes.
MG> Good. Let's see it.
AM> 1. Strong nuclear force constant
AM> 2. Weak nuclear force constant
AM> 3. Gravitational force constant
AM> 4. Electromagnetic force constant
MG> [much deleted]
AM> 25. Ratio of mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter
MG> I read through your material. You wasted your time typing it in.
MG> What you have here is a collection of what ifs and so forth. Can you
MG> tell me that if some of the parameters were changed that life would
MG> not exist? Can you tell me that some form of life very foreign to our
MG> own would not evolve and survive.
Can you tell me a Designer didn't create this universe? If the answer is
"I
can't prove a negative" then why saddle me with the same dilemma? If you
know of some unknown life, then here is the criteria I was faced with.
ML>And all we ask is evidence; real, cold, hard, physical evidence
ML>for the support of these claims. Otherwise it's all just some
ML>hoary mental construct without any sort of foothold in reality.
ML>And, now, how can one evaluate the pros and cons of purely
ML>mental constructs?
MG> The answer is "No, you can't". Your stuff here is a collection of
MG> facts that you want to act as evidence of a designer. In order to
MG> make these evidence, you must show that they are the direct effect of
MG> a designer. You must show us the designer.
I have shown you evidence of a designer. Where is your list of evidences
that suggests it was created by natural causes?
MG> Let me quote another eminent scientist to you....
MG> "Opinion on whether there is a god or not is nonsense. The facts of
MG> the matter point to there being no god. but those that believe that
a
Why doesn't he state the facts that point to no God and let the evidence
speak for itself?
MG> god must exist must show the rest that that god does indeed exist.
A
MG> polaroid of the god would be nice. And a nice interview with the god
MG> admitting his creation. Nothiung much else would matter."
MG> ---Martin Goldberg Ph.D.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Evolungelicals
|Date: 18 Feb 96 09:41:58
EID:303d 20524d20
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-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
DW> 11 Feb 96 01:26, Andrew Masten wrote to Hector Plasmic:
HP>> Look up the word "preclude." Note that some people, despite your
HP>> assertions, manage to successfully be both theists and scientists
HP>> (winos like Hugh Ross excepted). Science simply does not
HP>> _include_ untestable gods.
AM> You've answered your own question.
DW> Why are you xtians so goddamned bipolar? Just because a thing does not
DW> include X does not mean it *precludes* X. Are you sure you know what
DW> preclude *means*?
DW> Now answer the question: How does science preclude God?
Because it doesn't employ any hypothesis that include a creator. A
reference to a god or creator is considered metaphysical ot theology.
Note that the respondent agreed the science does not include untestable
gods. I think its fair to say that if somethings not included, its
precluded as well.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 18 Feb 96 09:59:40
EID:76c7 20524f60
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PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: hi
|Date: 18 Feb 96 10:23:21
EID:7228 205252e0
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-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 02-13-96 10:35, Andrew Masten got back to Brian Kolacy
BK> said? If your under a "new covenent" [sic], why does your Bible
BK> contain the Old Testament?
AM> The new testament is a fulfilment of the old testament, not an
AM> annulment.
AM> Christ said to love your neighbor as yourself, and you would be
AM> living by the law and the prophets.
DC> No he didn't. That was ripped off from Hillel, who stated that
DC> before your godling. Try giving credit were credit is due, not
DC> lying to keep your myth going. In fact, Hillel got the concept
DC> from Babylonian tradition.
Thats a good argument Dan. Its a shame no one was discussing the
originality of Christ's sayings. Keep trying though, Rome wasn't
evolved in a day.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolungelical
|Date: 19 Feb 96 08:47:33
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-=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Andrew Masten <=-
> AB> The trouble is, spontaneous generation per se has never been
> AB> disproved. It was proven that spontaneous generation does not occur
> AB> in dead animal flesh, but that isn't what a theory of mundane origin
> AB> for life requires. As I understand it, recent research has indicated
> AB> that RNA can catalyze the formation of other RNA. Thus, all that
> AB> would be required for life to appear would be a self-replicating
RNA
> AB> strand. DNA and proteins would be later mutations, in accord with
> AB> evolution. This is entirely consistent with the data that spontaneous
> AB> generation isn't going on these days, because matter which would
be
> AB> useful for producing such RNA is prone to being immediately snatched
> AB> up by one of the much more highly evolved lifeforms that are around
> AB> these days. In other words, George Wald didn't have a clue (assuming
> AB> you're quoting him accurately).
> I did quote him correctly. A problem you wouldn't
> have since you quote
> no one in your refutation. Then you suggest this
> man who won a science
> nobel peace prize hasn't a clue, but you do? What
> credentials do you have?
AB> I was awarded a master's degree in philosophy by UC Santa Barbara in
AB> 1995, 28 years after Wald got his Nobel prize. I'm also at present a
AB> doctoral candidate in philosophy at that same institution. Neither
of
AB> these credentials are particularly relevant to the issue at hand, but
AB> then neither is Wald's Nobel prize. The research on RNA was only in
AB> the past few years, which is why I draw your attention to the age of
AB> Wald's Nobel prize. If memory serves, I encountered the above facts
AB> in a class on the philosophy of science at the University of Minnesota
AB> (the Twin Cities campus; that's where I spent my undergraduate days,
AB> so I have a B.A. in philosophy from there if you want to count all my
AB> credentials), which was taught by Ken Waters, who was at the time an
AB> assistant professor. I don't think he'd have gotten tenure yet, but
I
AB> also don't think it's in doubt that he'll get it when the issue comes
AB> up to be decided. He obviously has a PhD, in any event, and
AB> philosophy of biology is one of his specialties.
AB> Aaron Boyden, B.A., M.A., C.Phil
Your credentials are excellent. I noted George Wald's nobel prize to show
he wasn't some wild renegade. I still think your characterization of him
as clueless was harsh and unfounded. It would have sufficed to say you
disagree and why. Also, he recieved his prize in 1967, I don't know when
he made the quote I cited.
Regarding Protien production:
In 1953 a young scientist Miller conducted an experiment. Introducing ammonia
methane and hydrogen in a sealed glass container, the simulating lightening,
he produced a reddish goo that later was analyzed to be amino acids. This
experiment cause quite a splash. However 30 years later Miller writes,
"The problem of the origin of life has turned out to be much more difficult
than I, and most other people envisioned"
Sir Fredrick Hoyle commented. "The current scenario of the origin of life
is about as likely as the assemblage of a 747 by a tornado whirling through
a junk yard."
Regarding RNA and DNA
In his book, "Prebiotic Ribose Synthesis" Shapiro states," The evidence
that
is currently available does not support the availability of ribose on the
prebiotic Earth, except perhaps for brief periods of time, in low
concentration, as part of a complex mixture, and under conditions unsuitable
for nucleoside synthesis."
Sir Francis Crick says in his book Life Itself,"The origin of life appears
to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have to be
satified to get it going."
Since your degree is in philosophy, have you heard of a science philosopher
Karl Popper, and are you familiar with this quote," I have come to the
conclusion that Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a
metaphysical research programme a possible framework for testable scientific
theories.... I do not think that Darwinism can explain the origin of life."
Also," Darwinism is not really a scientific theory because natural selection
is an all purpose explanation which can account for anything, and which
therefore explains nothing."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 20 Feb 96 19:33:59
EID:c027 20549c20
MSGID: 1:207/212 a9ce8ab4
REPLY: 1:271/460 312853cf
On (19 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> And God can't send "his" word simultaneously to everywhere there are
KD> people to combat this?
KM> That's why he told us to "Go into the world and preach the Gospel".
Why didn't HE just arrange for it to be done without his fallible
humans? And a message so connected with the culture of the Middle
East...
KM> A lot of them were, tell me, how would you feel if the one that you
KM> crucified arose from the grave? Would you face him? What would you have
KM> written about it?
KM> Also while looking up the prophecies that you think that Christ didn't
KM> fulfill, remember that we have not read all that he said and did.
They didn't crucify him.
Let me get with some of my Jewish correspondents and get a list of
prophecies he didn't fulfill.
KD> Why? Doesn't do us any good. Think of all the generations that died
KD> without knowing your mythology...
KM> Sorry, I don't spread mythology.
That's what your Bible is. Period.
... MicroSoft: Where quality is job 1.1!
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 20 Feb 96 19:35:41
EID:7fcd 20549c60
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On (19 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> You haven't been in hell yet, you may think that you have, but you
KM> haven't.
Hell can't be worse than what I went through as a teenager.
KM> You don't beleive in it, I do. Christ said that it exists, it is also
cast
KM> into the lake of fire in Revelation, now how could it be cast into the
KM> lake of fire if it does not exist?
How can Bilbo Baggins have stolen the arkenstone from Smaug if he didn't
exist?
How could King Arthur have received the sword from the strange woman
lying in a pond [which is no basis for a system of government :)] if it
didn't exist?
It's called fiction, Ken.
KD> I don't care to meet him.
KM> You won't have any choice.
Wait a minute - he's going to meet me before he sends me to hell? Kewl.
KD> It's god's problem to convince me.
KM> No, it's not.
Huh? He wants me to worship him and believe in him, and follow his laws,
but isn't willing to take the trouble to demonstrate his EXISTENCE?
KM> Not less, your role is different, but not less.
Separate but equal is not equal. And if I am subordinate to him, I am
less. Period.
KD> But they're not sinning except for not singing his praises. People
KM> like
KD> me.
KM> You've never sinned?
Let's see... of the big 10, other than the ones which require worship of
him...
I haven't stolen since I was of a responsible age.
I am completely faithful to my husband.
I have not knowingly accused someone of a crime that they didn't commit.
I recognize the difference between wishing for something LIKE my
neighbor's and striving for it, and wishing for THAT EXACT ITEM. I have
never committed the latter, ever in my memory, or at least since I
reached a resonsible age.
Other than stating the truth about how I was treated by my parents, I
treat them well.
I have never killed a human being. Not even in self defense.
KM> KM>> Learing about the Bible is not worshipping.
KD> You need to get together that often to study your mythology?
KM> I don't study any mythology.
Shame... all culture's mythologies are fascinating, including our own.
KM> No, I have not been given a higher status, never seen anywhere at all
in
KM> the Bible where it says I've been given a higher status.
Huh? Men being the head of the house isn't a higher status?
KD> I need evidence. If he put me in this jail, such a horrible jail that
KM> it
KD> was a PUNISHMENT for Adam and Eve, then he deserves not a single
KM> thanks
KD> for happening to leave the necessities of life around.
KM> The Bible is the evidence, ask Preston...
Speak to my point. If this is a prison, why am I not justified in being
angry at being kept here permanently?
KM> That doesn't change what I do.
Oh yes... you'd thank a jailor for the food.
KM> His Word is his evidence.
Then give me evidence that it is his word.
KM> Really? The small group in the middle east turned thier back on him
and
KM> crucified him remember?
If he had fulfilled all their prophecies, why weren't they all
convinced?
KD> I should be grateful and bow down to him for letting me live in a
KM> world
KD> that was a punishment to the first 2 people he created.
KM> That was there fault not his.
Speak to the point.
KD> An all powerful god can't forgive us our sins without a sacrifice?
KM> Forgive yes, but he has said that for sin there must be death, God gave
KM> the first sacrifice and the last.
For sin there must be death... fun god, there.
KM> God gave us the final sacrifice so that we would not have to, after
that
KM> sacrifice all he asks is that we believe.
He asks too much.
KM> I'm have breath because I'm alive, who gave me the air?
The plants.
KM> I must be ok then, I don't accept any 2000+ year old mythology.
Your Bible is that mythology.
... An idea can't squeeze into a head full of prejudice
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 20 Feb 96 19:50:44
EID:7fcd 20549e40
MSGID: 1:207/212 bab89f60
REPLY: 1:271/460 312856ee
On (19 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> OK, let's take this one step at a time - if she hurt me, who needs to
KD> make amends to whom?
KM> I didn't make any statement about her hurting you did I? I said, if
she
KM> did not sin, she would not have abused you.
First, speak to the point.
Second - it occurs to me that her harm to me is not a sin by your god's
book.
KM> Really? I guess when that guy tried to run me over with his silver nova
KM> because he wanted my girl-friend for his girl-friend, I didn't see the
KM> destructive capabilities.
This happened to you and you still claim jealousy isn't a character
flaw? [sheesh!]
KD> Why is he so hung up on being believed in?
KM> Ask him when you meet him.
If he gives me a good answer, I'll let you know. But he'll have to exist
first.
... __________ŚŚŚ_¢.•_æææ__________
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Andy Soell
|Sub: Hello, all!
|Date: 17 Feb 96 01:08:00
EID:ab01 20510900
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 18010a94
PID: FM 2.02
> OK, I'm new here, so I thought I'd make a general introduction of
> myself.
> From what I've seen scanning through the messages, many of you seem very
> cynical of christians....why? There seems to be a stereotype (at least
> what I've read) that christians are stupid lazy people who are out of
> touch with the world and have closed their minds....mind if I ask why?
> Again, I just want to say now that as long as you at lea
This is all of your message that survived into Network 128 (Pikes Peak Region,
Colorado).
You might want to consult with your Sysop/uplink and try to find out why
your message was truncated.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Andy Soell
|Sub: Hello, all!
|Date: 17 Feb 96 01:14:01
EID:ab01 205109c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 18010a95
PID: FM 2.02
> OK, I'm new here, so I thought I'd make a general introduction of
> myself.
> From what I've seen scanning through the messages, many of you seem very
> cynical of christians....why?
Combine the annoying quality of the vast majority of Jesus cultists we've
gotten in the Echo with the fact that the Christians are short one each
God-thing (at least, no believer has YET been able to produce same), and
you've got the recipe for quite the load of cynicism.
> There seems to be a stereotype (at least
> what I've read) that christians are stupid lazy people who are out of
> touch with the world and have closed their minds....mind if I ask why?
Because that DOES describe the vast majority of Jesus cultists who have
posted here.
Exceptions, such as Lynda Bustilloz, exist; they believe in Jesus, yet the
stereotype does not fit them. But such honest Christians are few and far
between, especially hereabouts.
> Again, I just want to say now that as long as you at lea
This is the sentence that the truncation has cut. Please troubleshoot the
truncation. It's attacking YOUR messages.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: Gender
|Date: 17 Feb 96 14:46:02
EID:7dc5 205175c0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f97
REPLY: 5:7107/21.0 124fcc00
PID: FM 2.02
> Tell me Judith, is it an urban legend that most business
> interest in USA is owned by women?
Yes. Most of the United States' economy isn't owned biologically AT ALL.
Our entire private sector, with insignificant exceptions, is corporately
owned. No single biological human or group of them predominates before the
vast proportion of NON-biological person (entity) ownership in this country.
> One comes across this
> statement now and again, always presented as a fact.
Where?? Not that I'm saying you're lying (far from); but in the never-ending
evidential wars you see around you here, I need all the source-references
I can get............ :-)
> If this is so, there should be no economic reason why
> women could not run for political office, should they so desire.
You gravely underestimate the corporate power in the US, almost all of which
is held by aging white males. Remember, less than 5% of our private sector
economy knows of a single natural-person owner (or a reasonably-sized group
of them).
And the cash and power summonable by those __aging white men__ who comprise
major corporate directors DWARFS virtually ANY private fortune.
> I see the present struggle here in South Africa, where a
> traditionally patriarchal society has to transform itself into
> gender equality - and the agony is equal among black and white
> men.
EXACTLY IDENTICAL to the one in the US. We're only one generation further
along; women have had the vote, but only are approaching social equality
NOW.
And, as Dr. Goldberg pointed out to me yesterday, ANY major change-over
in the way a nation does business IS going to be SERIOUSLY catastrophic.
(As he says, ask the Russians!!)
For the first THREE generations after dual-gender participation in business
becomes accepted as "normal" (whatever that's supposed to mean), the resulting
job position dilution WILL cause wages to go down. To return closer to topic,
NO being has EVER been evidenced that could make it happen otherwise.
:-)
> Even Mandela's wishes can't make this happen as quickly
> and smoothly as female voters would like - but where there is
> will there is way...
Not in one generation, though. It's going to take more than one generation
for this to sort itself out -- in EITHER nation.
> I myself grew up with gender equality in Denmark, where
> politicians (and plumbers, and engineers) have approx a 50/50
> distribution - and so did my husband (in Israel).
"50/50 distribution" ?? ??????? Please explain!!
> Now, this is not my experience at all. Since 1983 we have been
> running our own chemical import business from home, and men always
> seem to get the message very quickly whom of us it is most beneficial
> to talk to.
That you SA'ns owe to your India neighbors. Women DO own most of the private
sector in that nation; they control a great deal of the rest corporately;
and their first female head of state, Indira Gandhi, was no slouch.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR...
|Date: 17 Feb 96 14:53:03
EID:1c37 205176a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f98
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 3124988a
PID: FM 2.02
> And Brave Sir John ran away, screaming "OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR..."!
> TR> I haven't read it, but I'm going to look for it now that I know about
> TR> it. Sounds like something I'll enjoy. Ever read "the man who folded
> TR> himself"? The hero goes back and rescues Jesus off the cross (with
> TR> the assistance of an M-16). When he gets back to his own time,
> TR> "modern civilization" consists of "brown men in huts who'd never
heard
> TR> of the United States". So he goes back, stops himself from
> TR> interfering
> TR>
> SA> So what's so horrible about that? I don't get it. ;)
> JP> Bet you like electricity and indoor plumbing.
> But I HATE hydro and water bills.
Umm, no hablamos Canadiano, Sue!! :-)
Hydro AND water??!!?????
Also: Were such a hero to accomplish that, there's a better-than-average
chance that there would be no __human race__ when he got back home.
Think just one moment. DaVinci discovering Relativity, heavy-metal fission
power, and applying that to the decadence of mid-1500's Italy........
[shudder]
> Besides, I was mainly referring to "never heard of the United
> States". I envy those "brown men in mud huts" in that way. :P
Interesting, considering the fact that you have more brown men living in
mud huts in your country than we do in ours..... [g,d,r]
And all too many of them speak Fwench...... :-)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: YHWH
|Date: 17 Feb 96 15:00:04
EID:ae41 20517800
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f99
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 312429b1
PID: FM 2.02
> Mike, this would not necessarily work. Ebola is transmitted by
> blood and body fluids, the same as HIV and hepatitis. While Ebola kills
> quicker than the other two, what chance do you think you have by simply
> making more "sanitary" hospitals over there? And how many do you really
> think you are going to have to put up to even have a chance?
The same regimen that Yellow Fever found so easy to defeat, and that Streptococcus
EVOLVED IN.
Again, Mikey's speaking from faith, having little else.
> Besides, you have to change the culture with it...the main reason
> it spread so far was the burial rituals of the culture of the people
> involved necessitating certain burial rituals (which I do not know
> details of) that allowed the transmission through the body fluids.
English Translation: SOMEONE in that culture had to handle the bodies. Again
__just like HIV and hepatitis__, there's no way of stopping it we can rely
on. Those who deal with the dead are still entitled to live, ya know??
:-)
Pathogens, remember, ADAPT TO THE LIFE OF THEIR HOSTS. And viruses are remarkably
adaptable critters.
> Try changing a culture lately?
There's that, too.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 17 Feb 96 15:05:05
EID:4031 205178a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f9a
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ 2cd9fcad
PID: FM 2.02
> SA> It would be interesting to learn how much Clinton has spent on
> SA> his campaign thus far. He's already exhibited what the bottom
> SA> 5% ethically can do. Tell me again how bad conservatives can
> SA> be.
> "Long before he went to the White House, the president was involved
> in curious land deals. His first lady, a power behind the scenes,
> insisted that a White House official be fired. A crucial document
> mysteriously disappeared for years while frustrated investigators
> fumed. You know the stories, but perhaps not the administration.
> Those were the Reagan-Bush years.
> It does not spare the Clintons misdeeds, should any that matter ever
> be found, to note that the search of their lives has marooned them
> on the short end of a whopping double standard.
> Less than a month after Reagan was elected governor of California,
> he sold 236 acres that a Los Angeles County assessment appeals board
> said were worth less than half the $1.9 million Reagan was paid.
> Eight years later, the buyer, 20th Century Fox, resold the land for
> a fourth of the per-acre price it had paid Reagan. In the meantime,
> lucky Reagan was able to buy a 688-acre mountain ranch for just $764
> an acre, less than a tenth of the per-acre price of his first
> purchase.
> All this made Reagan a rich man,
WHICH HE HAD NOT BEEN BEFORE..........
Continue!! :-)
> if not quite in the league of the
> southern California moguls who had picked him to carry the
> right-wing torch.
So Reagan was a Zanuck property in the end.......
> No congressional hearings were ever held.
> The Reagan administration took a real hit in the Iran-Contra affair.
> Two White House officials were convicted of serious charges and a
> third got off on a technicality. Democrats got in their share of
> cheap shots, but unlike Whitewater or the travel office blunder,
> Iran-Contra involved the misuse of executive power to subvert proper
> congressional authority and create secret and unconstitutional
> foreign policy operations.
> And George Bush's diary, first sought by the Iran-Contra special
> prosecutor in 1987, wasn't produced until Bush's last month as
> president in 1992 -- just before he pardoned key officials who might
> be further implicated by it.
> Bush and Reagan were never held to anything like the unforgiving
> personal moral account the Clintons are suffering for far lesser
> suspicions involving no misuse of executive power.
> Neither, although there were hearings on Iran-Contra, were they
> assigned an empowered tormenter like Sen. Alfonse D'Amato -- an
> active ally of Clinton's most likely re-election opponent, Bob Dole,
> and by acclamation the most ethically dubious member of the Senate.
> Folk wisdom reminds us that "politics ain't beanbag." OK. But gang
> warfare? --Tom Teepen, national correspondent of Cox Newspapers
> You asked.
And 'tis rude to refuse a reasonable request from the Moderator [g,d,r].....
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: One God
|Date: 17 Feb 96 15:13:06
EID:e5c2 205179a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f9b
PID: FM 2.02
> Hi Don.
Hello, Brad.
> You are very good with words, to be sure. But all the knowledge
> of the language in the world will not get you any closer to God,
> (JESUS CHRIST).
Neither will anything else, as your "God" does not exist, and "Jesus Christ",
if he is to be taken as an historical person, was forever dead millennia
ago.
> I am not saying that you can not get any closer to
> God, but I don't think he will be inpressed with the way you speak.
We're not yet impressed that your God exists, Brad. As far as we're concerned,
your "God" only exists in your head.
Show us your God, Brad. Not your Bible -- your God. Not your mental-case
"faith" -- your God.
All the INDIRECT evidence in the world is worthless without direct evidence
to corroborate it. So cough up your God, Brad. Or admit it doesn't exist,
one.
NOW, please.
> If you are reading this message you still have time to find
> Jesus the one and only God.
Been there, done that (fifteen years' worth), no God.
> I pray the beast will not deceive you any longer.
Aleister Crowley has told me the truth oftener than your Bible has, Brad.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 17 Feb 96 15:35:07
EID:102c 20517c60
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f9c
REPLY: 1:352/266 31240DA1
PID: FM 2.02
Hey, kiddo!!
Long time no hear from!!!!!!!
So now there's TWO new Netmail Addresses I need to tag!!
P.S. I'm Rowan Moonstone's contact in the BBS world at the moment, so the
downlink end of the old Bristlecone Glen BBS traffic is to be sent here
(1:128/203.666).
> NS> they differentiate between them? In the passage cited, there is a
> NS> listing of a lot of different flying things...if there was a word
> NS> that just denoted flying things, then who put in all the extra
> NS> names, etc.? I'm willing to bet a year off of Jim Staal's life
> It seems that it would not be too difficult to resolve this question if
> one went to the library, got a Hebrew translation with English
> available... A Triaglot if possible and simply looked the passage in
> question up and saw what Hebrew words were used for flying things.
Hate to tell you this, love, but the Hebrew is __clear__ that bats WERE
considered as an unclean species of "bird".
It was indeed for a reasonable cause -- bats are naturally immune to both
rabies and tularemia, and have the same resilience to bubonic plague as
their house-rat cousins (Rattus Norvegicus var. and R. rattus var.). You
DON'T want to eat them -- a case, just like that for pork, on the threat
being that of eater being too biologically ALIKE the eatee......
> I requested this echo some months ago, and have been patiently awaiting
> debate. I have simply been dissappointed at how little effort is being
> placed in writing or supporting most of the posts. I have seen people
> who claim to be from religions based on love and peace resort to nothing
> short of hate mongering and name calling.
Chill out, dear lady. It's the kind we tend to get here. Don't take it
personally!! And BY NO MEANS reduce yourself to their level (except as obvious
recreation! :).
HONEST participants here get the respect we earn. You will have no trouble
obtaining same (if you're the same Masochistic Maiden I know and love).
> Is this sort of an open flame echo without interest in scholarly
> attempts?
False. Although flames ARE occupational hazards (as they are INEVITABLY
when one of the Big Three Social Discussion Taboos *is* the titular subject)
there is also informed debate on all facets of religion-impacted life going
on here.
We call it the "HolySmoke Smorgasbord". You choose which subsets of the
discussion you want to participate in. If you feel the fare is poor on scholarly
discussion, YOU bring some up.
That's how HolySmoke works -- and it does.
If you want religious discussions __without__ the inflammatic overburden,
then perhaps we have a downlink to re-establish, n'est-ce pas?? :-)
Rowan, Devin and the rest of us send our best.............
love -- me
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 17 Feb 96 15:39:08
EID:102c 20517ce0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f9d
REPLY: 1:352/266 31240DA1
PID: FM 2.02
> I have a real interest in discussion of religions (regardless of type)
> but don't want to waste time on meaningless posts.
Again, that's what Kali created the [n]ext key for!! :-)
> Perhaps there is someone here who would like to explore such topics as
> the development of religous thought from 3000 BCE to 2000 BCE? That
> would cover approximately from Egyptian heiroglyphics, Chinese
> ideograms, the Indus Valley texts, the cycle of Inanna, the Gilgamesh
> epos, an early version of the I Ching, the Pyramid texts, the Coffin
> texts, and the Chinese classics.
> I'm just beginning to build my own sacred texts resource library and
> would love the chance to enjoy learning from posts on any or all of the
> above topics.
That did it.
Tell the SysDwarf at Maison de Metal to Netmail my humble self at 1:128/203.666.
We've got a DownLink to rebuild!!
love -- me
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 17 Feb 96 15:56:09
EID:e97f 20517f00
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6fa0
REPLY: 1:352/266 31240DA3
PID: FM 2.02
> FB> 4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM
> FB> 4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
> etc. How can I obtain all of these argumentation fomats. They are by
> the way GREAT!
On their way.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: George Mooth
|Date: 17 Feb 96 15:57:10
EID:16f7 20517f20
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6fa1
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 8976fc12
PID: FM 2.02
> GM> February 11 Sunday
>
> GM> FINDING NEW HOPE
>
> GM> Read: 1 Kings 19:1-18
>
> Is this the same asshole that used to post endless streams of biblical
> diarrhea?
No, dear. It's a NEW ONE.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: haggis vs. food
|Date: 17 Feb 96 15:58:11
EID:b3d0 20517f40
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6fa2
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b6474380
PID: FM 2.02
> MH>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
> MH> MH> According to Monty Python's Big Red Book, "The Scottish people
> consider
> MH> MH> haggis not only a delicacy, but actually fit for human consumption."
> MH> KW> Well, you *can* eat it. But this Scot would have to be pretty
> hungry
> MH> KW> now that I'm old enough not to be bullied over it. As for Scots
> MH> KW> delicacies, ever had stoved potatoes? Or venison mincemeat?
> MH> Can't say as I have. Are they good?
> Yes.
> Although to do stoved potatoes right, you need clean sea water.
Which means that YOU have never had them!!! :-)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 17 Feb 96 19:24:12
EID:13c4 20519b00
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 181219a9
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3124cdd4
PID: FM 2.02
> BTW if this goes through, throw a ceramic owl my wife's way every Oct
> 9th and Christmas. My wife is an owl junky. I've got owl towels, owl
> places mats, owl coasters, owl figurines all over the place and a three
> foot ceramic owl lamp with no guts, shade and short one eye.
That lamp sounds as if my cat had gotten to it..... :-)
Swordsie HATES owls. In her wild days, she had been attacked by one. Today,
she has no truck with them AT ALL.
> ... Dole! For Family Values, we don't want sex in the White House.
Love. It.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 17 Feb 96 19:34:13
EID:1bd0 20519c40
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 181219aa
REPLY: 1:246/15 311C1574
PID: FM 2.02
> JB> FoF is a well-heeled hate group who, if they called themselves what
> JB> they really are, are no better than the KKK. They HATE...gays, women,
> JB> [...] other religions. All in the name of Jesus, of course.
> JB>
> Focus on the Family is a Christian organization
A CROOKED Christian profit-making business masquerading as a non-profit
establishment.
> that is praised for helping 1000's of souls come to Christ.
In other words, it's been praised for selling fictitious diseases (usually
called "sin") so they can make cash forever selling the fictitious cure
(your "God").
Doubtless the praisers were other cult masters, who are in on the money
and profits.......
> What authority do you have to knock it.
I pay higher personal taxes so that Focus can keep socking away profits,
just like a drug dealer.
In fact, given the choice of neighbors, I'll take the drug dealer, thank
you. The drug dealer pays taxes, and HIS wares actually exist and do what
they are marketed to do. These are two claims that Focus CANNOT make.
Hence, as I am taxed to sustain THEM, their business IS my business.
> None at all.
Demonstrably false; see above.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 20 Feb 96 19:56:10
EID:a5b1 20549f00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d2bb5fc6
REPLY: 1:280/26 530b8bd0
On (16 Feb 96) Richard Morrison wrote to Sue Armstrong...
RM> Hi Sue,
RM> SA>One can believe in anything one wants here. HOWEVER, it _is_
RM> SA>illegal to discriminate against hiring workers on the basis of
RM> SA>religion (as well as age, sex, race, and several other factors.)
RM> Is it? I think there was a case in California where a
RM> Christian org didn't hire someone on the basis that the
RM> person wasn't a practicing Christian. The org one the
RM> lawsuit. There are some orgs that are predominantly Christian
RM> and if you want to work there then it would go to say that
RM> you should be one too. Some include Church child care
RM> centers, Day Care centers etc. I'm not sure how that all
RM> works out but I *do* understand it. It's not that others are
RM> not good enough to work in one of those places however
RM> without believing in that same faith (no matter the faith at
RM> this point) they cannot represent the org as it's mission
RM> statement provides. As for the Law in these cases, it seems
RM> clear that there is some provision for variation.
Granted, a Methodist church doesn't have to hire a Rajneeshee as
pastor, but I see no logical reason why they should be able to
insist on a Methodist to clean the carpets and dust the altars off
once a week. In other words, it depends on the job. A daycare
center would, it seems to me, have to forego any questions about
religion if they are hiring somebody to work in the nursery with
infants, where the chief concern would be whether or not the
person was loving toward children and knew the rudiments of good,
hygienic infant care, as well as all the pertaining State laws
regarding health standards and the like.
... I think he's from the shallow end of the gene pool.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 20 Feb 96 20:00:41
EID:f7c4 2054a000
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 2972b28e
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 14171d8d
On (19 Feb 96) Jesse Jones wrote to Ryan Shaw...
JJ> Quoting RYAN SHAW to JESSE JONES on 02-14-96
JJ> RS> Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Alan Hess:
RS> JJ> As frustrating as I know the idiocy evidenced in BJ's
RS> JJ> post is, to suggest that King James deliberately
RS> JJ> mistranscribed or omitted anything is ridiculous. Got
RS> JJ> *anything* to back that up?
JJ> RS> It's a basic fact outlined in most Western Civilization
JJ> RS> courses.
JJ> I have many texts, having majored in history. Care to give me
JJ> one cite?
JJ> RS> Have you taken one of those lately?
JJ> Not since 1971, actually. I have, however, read and studied
JJ> extensively since then about the Bible, from all
JJ> perspectives, and I have never encountered any charge of
JJ> deliberate error in the KJV.
Oh, come ON, Jesse! What rock have you been hiding under? The bit
about drinking poison in an add-on. Most scholars believe that the
book of John has many verses cobbled onto the beginning of it, and
that it actually starts somewhere in chapter two. The voice from
the clouds that told the congregation that Jesus was the Son of
God at his baptism has the words "this day" cobbled onto the
quotation.
The cases of added text are numerous and night unto undebatable in
many cases.
... Johnson & Johnson Tagline: ŪŪŪŪŪ°°°°°ŪŪŪŪŪ
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Him
|Date: 20 Feb 96 10:00:00
EID:1c8b 20545000
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946BB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
DW>> damn! My catty-bitch meter just exploded! > plastic out of my face>;)
LB> It was a JOKE, David! Didn't you see the smiley? ;)
MH>
LB> Hey! Now you're doing MY schtick! But then, I was doing yours...
LB> Isn't role
LB> reversal fun, sometimes? (G)
Lynda, you are an utter mystery to me.
... Winter weather brings post-nasal drip to city. Phlegm at eleven.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: opinions are like
|Date: 20 Feb 96 10:02:00
EID:9b63 20545040
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946BC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Michael Hardy <=-
LB> that vote affects all of us. This is no different then Mike not only
LB> personally finding
LB> abortion to be wrong, but voting in an attempt to force that opinion
LB> on our country -- and taking a lot of grief in here for expressing it.
MH> And, like Styx, (my new conservative buddy, although I know he's
MH> still pro-choice) not feeling the least bit apologetic.
LB> Haha! I don't EXPECT you to feel apologetic about it! (If you did,
I
LB> would then expect you to change your goals to match you're feeling that
LB> they are "wrong") But, you've been told repeatedly (and for the most
LB> part, accept) that expressing those views here will bring down the
LB> wrath of many in Holysmoke.
Absolutely. I am a proponent of the prophetic model of religion
rather than the therapeutic. That is, true religion isn't about making
people feel good about themselves uncritically; it's about making them
profoundly uncomfortable when warranted, uncomfortable to the point of
rage if need be.
The Old Testament prophets, Jesus and the apostles all spoke the truth
and let those who were hostile to the truth stew in their own juices.
Christians today should do the same. This doesn't mean being hostile
just for the sake of being hostile; it does mean not watering down the
truth in order to gain acceptance among the enemies of truth.
I just re-read what I wrote above and realized that you're likely to
take it as a veiled reference to your alleged sucking up to the
heathens. Don't take it that way -- contrary to what L'il David Worrell
would like to think, I know that is NOT what you're doing. You and I
may disagree on some aspects of what the truth is, but I know your
convictions are sincere, not a suck-up.
LB> Styx of all people knows that that is the
LB> likely outcome of expressing his own views, and it seems wierd to me
LB> that he should be outraged,
LB> or surprised by the reaction. Or to assume that because Scot is
LB> vehemently opposed to those views (and he has good reason to be), he
LB> suddenly isn't Styx' friend. Neither Styx or Scot have changed one
bit
LB> from who they were a month ago, and should be able to discuss this
LB> without thinking their friendship is at stake.
Styx is on the receiving end of Heathen Hostility for the first
time. His long-time buddies have turned against him. And because
politics inspires nearly as much fervor as religion does, they have
turned against him full-force. And he seems to be shocked -- shocked!
-- that it has happened. It's really kind of funny.
LB> We are told that Christian views are accorded no "special" status here
LB> -- that
LB> is, if you state an opinion, you don't get to jump back and say "You
LB> shouldn't
LB> be so hurtful" about the response. Anyone whose been here more than
a
LB> week has tacitly given their approval for that policy. And the primary
LB> reason given for the reactions we hear about Christianity is that our
LB> religious views
LB> have political consequences. What I'm saying is that if that is the
LB> case, then no special status should be accorded one's political views,
LB> even if you're
LB> NOT religious, even if you are someone as well-respected and central
LB> to holysmoke as our moderator Styx. And I find it absurd that both
LB> sides are comparing the other to Christians. (G)
Agreed on all counts. :)
... Behaviorial Research: Pulling habits out of rats.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 20 Feb 96 10:17:00
EID:726b 20545220
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946BD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dawn Kleuser to All <=-
DK> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like
DK> to hear any stories anyone has about them. No doubt there is a whole
DK> slew of skeptics out there who would love to attack me on this subject,
DK> but I'm not lookin' for a fight. Just wanna swap Angel experiences.
DK> Please respond if you'd like to share, and I will also. Anyone having
a
DK> question for me on the subject, please ask away - but keep in mind that
DK> I will not be drawn into an argument over the existence of Angels.
Run, don't walk, away from this echo. This is a heated debate echo, and
you will be savaged by the atheists if you stay here. If you don't want
to argue -- and aren't willing to be insulted -- this is not the place
for you.
... Tagline sold separately.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Aaron Boyden
|Sub: information
|Date: 20 Feb 96 10:20:00
EID:d7e0 20545280
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946BE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to John Prewett <=-
AB> The Meese commission was unable to find any discernable link between
AB> pornography and any kind of anti-social behavior. Considering how much
AB> they would have liked to find such a link, I'm inclined to conclude
AB> that the only thing which could have caused them to fail would be the
AB> absence of any such link, combined with a little more honesty from
AB> Meese than I would really have expected. I can see keeping guns, cars,
AB> even drugs away from kids, as they present clear dangers when
AB> irresponsibly used, and of course kids can't be trusted to be
AB> particularly responsible. However, the Meese commission didn't fail
to
AB> find a link between responsible use of pornography and anti-social
AB> behavior; it failed to find a link between any use of pornography and
AB> anti-social behavior. Thus, the issue of responsibility doesn't seem
AB> to arise, so I don't see the need for making kids an exception in this
AB> area.
Has anybody ever tried to find a link between exposure to pornograohy
and:
Sexual promiscuity
Sexually transmitted disease
Unplanned pregnancy or paternity
Abortion
Divorce
Spousal abuse
I suspect there are such links, and all of those things are
undesireable. But so far as I know, no one has ever done a study to
quantify the correlation.
... A Mexican won the lottery. It was a million to Juan.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 20 Feb 96 10:23:00
EID:1593 205452e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946BF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally
MH> hard on Frederick Leff.
FL>> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
DW> Hardly, how many times must this be explained to you? Neither Fred nor
DW> any other atheist here claims to fallow some superior moral code that
DW> everybody else should follow as well. I don't give a fuck whether your
DW> software or anyone else's is registered or not. If you tell me "Thou
DW> shalt not steal" while using unregistered software, however, I'm going
DW> to abuse the hell out of you.
FOUR admissions that atheists have no morals. This is outstanding!
... I'm not religious. I just love the Lord.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: names
|Date: 20 Feb 96 18:19:00
EID:51f3 20549260
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946C0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> JS> Hmmm...what's a 'nigger'?
MH>
MH> RB> It's commonly used as a derogatory term for a minority. Not
MH> RB> that different from 'heathen' really.
MH>
MH> Or "fundy," or "jeezoid" or "christer" or "christaniac" or "death
MH> cultist?"
MH>
MH> Looks like the atheists have us 5 to 1 in the derogatory names
MH> department ...
RB> But minorities (heathens) have little power when they
RB> sling "words" at the majority. However, the majority
RB> (theists) has considerable power in the usage of it's
RB> language. Which has a more damaging effect?... "Nigger"
RB> or "honky"? When you (theists) become a minority, THEN
RB> you can worry about being called names.
A good point, but the more important point is that there should be
better ways for people on either side to communicate than name-calling.
Also, "heathen" really isn't a pejorative -- it's a legitimate word
with a legitimate meaning, and non-Christians are heathens, by
definition. If it has a negative connotation, it still is a
real word. "Christer," "Jeezoid," etc. *are* slurs,
like "nigger" or "kike."
And truly, I see a number of non-Christians here who seem to think that
calling such names is the best way to make their points. (Or at
least the best way they're capable of.) Since most of you seem to think
yourselves better than us, it is delicious to watch you degenerate to
calling us childish names.
... Jesus saves. The rest of us rack up credit card debt.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Simon Ewins
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 20 Feb 96 18:24:00
EID:24a2 20549300
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946C1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Simon Ewins to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> If all the best copies of a book end at one point, and then you find
MH> a much newer copy of the book that has two more pages tacked on to
MH> the end, do you consider those two pages to be part of the original
MH> book?
SE> I certainly would not.
SE> Unfortunately that is exactly the way that the christian community
SE> feels about their bible.
SE> In fact, using your argument one could throw out all but Genesis since
SE> the rest has obviously just been 'tacked on'.
SE> Weak argument, Michael. I expected better from you.
I'm not sure you even understood the argument, especially as I haven't
made it yet. I was only trying to establish a baseline agreement with
this question.
It seems that the Gospel of Mark's ending, including the part about
handling snakes and drinking poison, was added centuries after the
gospel was written. The oldest and best manuscripts do not have it. The
earliest manuscripts which do have it date from the Middle Ages.
This was not known to the first English translators of the Bible,
including the King James translators in 1611. The older manuscripts
were discovered later. More recent translations include it (because
they'd be accused of covering up if they didn't) with the note that it
doesn't appear in the best manuscripts.
That being the case, Rudzinski's constant "I'll pour" diatribe is
meaningless.
... Yes, I've tried my hand at sex ...
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 20 Feb 96 18:29:00
EID:fea4 205493a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946C2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Richard Morrison to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Several atheists have taken it upon themselves to berate Christian
MH> using shareware offline readers for more than 30 days without
MH> registering.
MH>
MH> Unless those atheists are hypocrites, they will come down equally
MH> on Frederick Leff.
MH>
MH> FL> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
MH>
MH> Of course, those atheists almost certainly *are* hypocrites.
RM> :)
RM> Doesn't seem surprising does it.
Of course not. Since I posted this, four atheists have explained the
difference: Atheists don't claim to adhere to a moral code, they
explained.
Which is, of course, an admission that atheists have no morals save
those which they invent for themselves. :)
... The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 20 Feb 96 18:36:00
EID:c943 20549480
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946C3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Hector Plasmic <=-
HP> RB> If God is behind this 'life sustaining' universe, why is
HP> RB> 99.9999 (and on and on) of it, devoid of life? That's like
HP> RB> a terrestial god deciding to plant a garden and he puts
HP> RB> ONE carrot in the middle of North America.
HP>
You haven't yet answered my post about your egotism, but here it is
demonstrated again.
Assuming a God exists, WHY do you assume that His creation would have
to be either teeming with life, or centered around us? Why do you limit
this hypothetical God to creating what is only of utilitarian purpose?
Who are you to insist he can't create beauty for beauty's sake? Who are
you to assume there is no use for the rest of the universe just because
*you* don't see a use for it?
You also forget the question of scale. To an infinite God, a universe
10 microns across and one 10 exquillion light years across are pretty
much the same. The vastness of space and the unfathomable billions of
years it has existed may boggle our minds, but to an infinite and
eternal creator, they might as well be 10 miles and 15 years.
... You can do better than that, Rob. (You CAN, can't you?)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: flood
|Date: 20 Feb 96 18:44:00
EID:52f7 20549580
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946C4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> RB> But human willingness to die for causes or
AM> RB> beliefs does not make the cause righteous or the belief true.
AM>
AM> But its strong evidence that they believed there own claims that
RB> Chris
AM> rose from the dead. Would they suffer execution all for a story
they
AM> made up?
RB> You are correct. It is evidence that they 'believed'. Some
RB> people 'believe' they've been abducted by aliens. Are you willing
RB> to accept THEIR beliefs?
Would people who believe this willingly die for refusing to recant that
belief?
... Dyslexics of the world untie!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 20 Feb 96 18:44:00
EID:b8ef 20549580
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946C5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Jesse Jones to Ryan Shaw <=-
RS> JJ> As frustrating as I know the idiocy evidenced in BJ's
RS> JJ> post is, to suggest that King James deliberately mistranscribed
RS> JJ> or omitted anything is ridiculous. Got *anything* to back that
RS> JJ> up?
RS>It's a basic fact outlined in most Western Civilization courses.
In other words, "I just know it's true."
Come on, Ryan. If you have some evidence, trot it out.
... An excellent rebuttal! Now, come up with one that addresses the point.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 20 Feb 96 18:49:00
EID:491b 20549620
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892946C6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Katherine Wintersnight <=-
KW> You sound like Bear. He gets these little thingies that he slips over
KW> the barrel of his pens to improve his grip.
RB> Oh, you said 'pens'. Never mind.
Our newspaper -- before I came to work for it -- once ran this headline
over a story about a man who had waged a letter-writing campaign for
some cause or other:
Penis mightier than sword
This was in the days of hot type, and someone obviously forgot the
space.
... Clip-clop..clip-clop....Clip-clop... (Amish drive-by shunning)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: JIM STAAL
|Date: 19 Feb 96 01:31:00
EID:0d09 20530be0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3129db2d
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to George Rudzinski <=-
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Judith Bandsma <=-
GR> Just found out the BBS I dl messages from is going down. Don't sent
GR> info until I acquire new access. Figure two to three days.
JB>
JB> Ok, that will fit with getting the stuff together and into readable
JB> format.
Forget that. I've got a pile of morons trying to take over without any
ability to show that they know what is going on.
Snail mail the info to me at:
george rudzinski
1248 Davis NW
Grand Rapids, MI, 49504.
GR> Did you consider buying time on their kiln from other shops? Hey!
I
GR> had to ask, I'm a great fan of Demming.
JB> Hell, most shops around here were so overloaded that they were buying
JB> time on MY kilns. Since I specialize in greenware and don't do the
JB> teaching, etc. I will do 'outside' firing (pieces bought elsewhere).
JB> None of the 'full-service' shops will. They will only fire pieces
JB> bought from them. It helps when people are coming in for firing as I
JB> know they won't leave without looking at the greenware. When they look,
JB> they buy. Taking all major plastic hasn't hurt the impulse trade,
JB> either.
Sounds good so far.
GR> BTW if this goes through, throw a ceramic owl my wife's way every Oct
GR> 9th and Christmas. My wife is an owl junky. I've got owl towels, owl
GR> places mats, owl coasters, owl figurines all over the place and a three
GR> foot ceramic owl lamp with no guts, shade and short one eye.
JB> Oh, I've got that mold. And an owl vase, an umbrella stand, cookie
JB> jar, cups and cup rack. (Not to mention the other 165 owl pieces.)
Well that solves my problem of what to get for Christmas and Birthday for
the
next 80 years.
GR> it is strictly business, nothing personal.
JB> The way I figure it is that I'm not really 'selling' the business. If
JB> I can make you see that *I* can make this work and work well...then
we
JB> both benefit. I just don't see why I can't make others see it.
I'm going to run a test on that. I'll let you know what the test is in
snail mail.
Nobody
JB> has ever lost money from dealing with me. I've been slow paying a few
JB> times but never defaulted...everyone always gets paid.
I like honesty. Most folks won't admit being late.
I don't believe
JB> in taking the easy way out, of bankruptcy. Not personal, not business.
JB> And I carry life insurance to cover the full amount of shop debt
JB> (outside of my personal insurance) and am covered by a disability
JB> policy that will cover up to $50,000 of payments in the event of
JB> illness or injury. The one thing you won't see in what I send you will
JB> be an accounts payable sheet. I don't have any. Right now all my
JB> vendors are paid up.
I'm interested in seeing an accounts paid sheet. I want to check out who
you
have done business with.
GR> Call me funny, but I like paying Capital Gains Taxes. It is a sure
GR> sign that my money is working and I've got time to do something other
GR> than work.
JB> Well, if we can work this out, you will also have the satisfaction of
JB> knowing you put at least a couple more people to work.
No I won't. You put them to work. I obviously can't or I wouldn't be
investing my money in you.
Doesn't do much
JB> for the total rate of unemployment, but whoever gets hired will thank
JB> you for it.
Nope! They are going to thank you. You did the work.
The only thing I'm going to do here is decide how I invest my money. All
I
will have done is take a chance.
JB> I can see the ad now; 'Mudslinger wanted: long hours, heavy work, low
JB> wages. You won't need a special wardrobe for this job. Willingness
to
JB> learn and sense of humor a must'.
I hope you pay over minimum wage. And I hope you encourage those mudslingers
to be creative. And I need to be able to contact the people that work for
you
now.
george
... "Dole 96! Dole 96!" Gee, he doesn't look a day over 72.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: Jason Ballard
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 19 Feb 96 17:19:06
EID:76fd 20538a60
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7661
MM> Yes, there were atrocities committed under the name of religion, and
MM> they unfortunately continue in this current time. However, if WE are
to
MM> end such depravity, we can not return the same measure as is dealt.
Do
MM> we want to become that thing we despise?
Atrocities... Atrocities? It was murder that they comitted and in the end
there will be vengeance. Vengeance on all those who killed our kind, those
who killed our ways, our beliefs who stole all we had and strip us of everything.
We have nothing anymore, the only one we pay debt to anymore is your so
called god. But what about my god, the earth, the trees and animals. The
gaian theory, Wotan and Ulik. Those were my gods, and they seek vengeance.
MM> Ummm I think you are in some ways blaming the actions of men, and
MM> attributing it to their diety. Free will would suggest that we each
MM> have the right to decide how we interpret and act on our beliefs.
As the saying goes, it is not the curse of god, but the curse of mankind.
Mankind has destroyed themselves, yet rebuilt themselves, yet we are among
the cruelest race of creatures alive, god is no more crueler then what he
has made man.
MM> Well, there is the possibility that all religions hold a part of the
MM> truth, but that mankind has decided to pollute the lesson with their
own
MM> interests. The value of studying several religious paths and looking
MM> for the commonalitys among them, rather than the differences might lead
MM> to a better perspective of what the lesson realy is.
That is very true that all religions hold a certain truth but it comes down
to this. There can only be one religion to the christians why can they let
us go our seperate ways instead of trying to become a monarchy so there
plagued religion can take over the world.
MM> Ummmmmm to whom do you pray for forgiveness? Forgiveness for what?
MM> Why do you view the natural processes of the world as being a denial
of
MM> forgiveness for whatever you are feeling guilty about?
I pray for forgiveness to the earth, the trees, the land, they suffer because
of us, the animals, the seas, the streams and oceans are flooded and filled
with our hatred. There is no longer a thing as peace, hatred as filled this
earth and no one can stop that now. There is nothing but constant hate,
braught on by your religions, there use to be no hate no indifferences until
this so called thing religion came, we were just ordinary creatures, like
dogs and birds, free and striving to survive the world, mother nature never
intended on us becoming so advanced with knowledge or technology, and people
say these things happen for a reason, now mother nature will get revenge
with her storms and the gaian theory and prophecy of the Arian race will
come true, when nature calls we all shall drown.
MM> So, let me get this straight in my mind, you are lambasting the
MM> Christian faiths for doing the very thing you so desperately want to
do?
MM> Hmmmmmmm how is this going to create peace? I really feel kind of
MM> scared that you are representing this philosophy under the name of any
MM> religion. You are speaking the same message as the ones you despise.
MM> Could a better approach be to apply mutual respect to practitioners
of
MM> all faiths and let people choose for themselves what matches the beliefs
MM> at their hearts?
It is true that people believe what they want to believe, but to teach them
a lie, to fill there heart with lies and make them believe in lies. Turn
them from what they really are, the animals look at us and say what the
hell has become of you? Why can't you be yourselves who you truly were meant
to be, if god intended us to live in peace, then he would create one surpreme
religion so why thare there so many beliefs? Why has religion changed so
much throughout history, and honestly there is no such thing as religion
because those who wrote it, after all these years we have changed it, turned
it upside down what is right, what is wrong? We were never intended to have
seperate religions we were suppose be the same exact race, humans color
of the skin doesn't make a difference, but to the bible it says that there
is a difference, we are all the same creature no difference then all the
rest, but dogs and cats no gods do they pray. You don't see an animal praying,
and if all men can go to heaven why can the beast of the earth, the wild,
the animals the trees? We were all born pagans in the beginning why changed
beliefs, christians are the supremacists they fight for there religion to
take over the world and don't try to tell me other wise I have seen it with
my own eyes how they brag and brag, how they want there money, god doesn't
need there money, we don't need god, we need ourselves, we don't need a
god to watch over us when we can all watch over ourselves. We all must become
a supreme race of beings, but religion changes that, the wars, the scars
of the past nothing can be changed, and yet the war continues within, there
will never be anymore peace, so why not fight back.. They want to rip me
of my beliefs then i'll fight them to the end.. Take care friend.
Jay
--- Proboard/Fastecho/InterMail
* Origin: The P.I.T.S. BBS = Orange City, Fl = 6 Nodes = 904-774-6577 (1:3618/12)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Dan Oglesby
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 19 Feb 96 14:18:41
EID:4935 20537240
TID: FastEcho 1.45a UNREG
:: From: Dan Oglesby To: Karen Davis Subj: One God not three ::
DO> For justice to be done, God should remove all of the evil in the
DO> world. At first glance that seems like a very good idea. But let
us
DO> consider it for a moment.
DO> For God to remove all of the evil in the world, He would have to
DO> remove a large amount of the population of the human race. Zappo!
DO> Everyone who has done anything wrong in their life, (and I believe
we
DO> all have at one time or another) are now removed. But it doesn't stop
DO> there. God would then have to remove those left, who are capable of
DO> evil. Therefore, there has now been a total removal of the human
DO> race. Debatably speaking, probably many other species of plants and
DO> animals also.
Ah, but why did he create the potental IN THE FIRST PLACE? Mighty shabby
work, that God of yours.
... This copy of planet Earth has been unregistered for 4 billion years.
---
* TLX v4.00 *
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 19 Feb 96 23:22:01
EID:1376 2053bac0
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 3129069c
REPLY: 035D9186
-=| On 16 Feb 96 04:04, Al Schroeder said: |=-
AS> BTW, Michael, I'm posting this one from the other BBS I
AS> mentioned, If you can see THIS one, let me know.
I can see it, and it's the first from you in about two months. Sorry to
hear
(via Michael voice) about the fire, I'm gratified that no one was hurt.
Stuff can be replaced, huh?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:21:00
EID:dd21 205442a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 12a44a31
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
Good morning, J.J.
JH> You probably won't get this message until after I resurrect.
JH> FidoNet is EVEN SLOWER on this side. (But on the plus side,
JH> I now know where all the missing mail goes to.)
So now you're gonna keep us in suspense?
Spit it out - solve the mystery for us!
Take care.
... Celibacy is not hereditary. - Guy Goden
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07įi (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 20 Feb 96 15:04:00
EID:e512 20547880
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 12a44a41
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Karen.
RM> isn't one of them. Now, rabbits and cud, or Jesus ancestry, or which
RM> was created first, men or plants, or ... like I said, there are lots
of
RM> them.
KD> Rabbits DO chew their cud, just not exactly in the same way as cows.
KD> They eat their first morning's droppings. [I know... yuck, but....]
Children, do not try this yourselves!
This is disgusting. And it raises a number of questions: Does shit count
as cud? Exactly what was the hebrew word translated as cud in that
passage, anyway? Is this insanity limited to the rodent clan? Who on
earth spends their time studying these things? And how does one go about
getting a job like that?
KD> I've had this confirmed by experts in the things.
Experts in morning dropping eating? I hope the pay is good .
Take care.
... As a rule of thumb, too clever is dumb. - Ogden Nash
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07įi (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Subject Headers
|Date: 20 Feb 96 16:56:00
EID:a821 20548700
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 12a44a51
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to All <=-
Good morning, Maiden.
MM> Hi, I'm new here and trying to find a place to fit in.
Don't bother trying to fit in. The place is a disaster area, everything
is all jumbled up, and there's no place to fit in anyway.
Just be you and chat. (BTW, being a masochist is probably an advantage
around here).
MM> I browse the
MM> echo for subjects of interest, then find that the post has absolutely
MM> noting to do with the subject line. Could it be that hard to shift
MM> the subject header when the conversation drifts?
That would require paying attention, and being careful .
Myself, I pay more attention to the name in the "From" column than
anything else when browsing here. And here's a tip - the really
thoughtful people generally don't post 6,000 messages a day. No one (with
a few notable exceptions) has enough time to write that many messages and
make them interesting.
Take care.
... The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. (Thoreau)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07įi (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: LES WILCOX
|To: MARILYN BURGE
|Sub: Who cares?
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:29:09
EID:14d2 205503a0
MSGID: 1:147/48 38557584
TID: GE 1.2
Marilyn
How can so many people be wrong in just one echo?
Tell ya what.. Lets change the subject.. Here's one for ya.
MORMONISM HAS ANOTHER JESUS (II COR. 11:4)
The Mormon church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints)
claims to worship
Jesus Christ. Mormonism claims to be a Christian church, but it does not
have the same
Jesus as Christianity Mormonism worships a false Christ (1l Cor 11:4).
The Bible says that Christ was begotten by the Holy Ghost and born of
a virgin (Matt.
1:18-25, Luke 1:26-35) The Mormon church denies this. The second
president of the
Mormon church declared, "Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy
Ghost" (Jornal of
discourses, Vol. 1, pg. 51). In fact, the Mormon Jesus was begotten by a
sexual relationship
between Mary and God the Father (who has a body). One early Mormon
leader wrote, "it
was the personage of the Father who begat the body of Jesus" ( The Seer,
pg . 158) . Present
day Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie says of Christ, "he was begotten,
conceived and born
in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God,
and that designation
means what it says" (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 742).
The Jesus of the Bible is God. He has always been God (John 1:1,
Philip. 2 6, Heb 1:8).
This is not true of the Mormon Jesus. According to the Mormon church,
Jesus became A
god. Joseph Smith said, "I have always declared God to be a distinct
personage, Jesus Christ
a separate and distinct per sonage from God the Father, and that the
Holy Ghost was a
distinct personage and a Spirit; and these three constitute. . .three
Gods" (History of the
Church, Vol. 6, pg. 474). In October of 1984, one Mormon apostle stated,
"Anyone who
believes and teaches of God the Father, and accepts the divinity of
Christ, and of the Holy
Ghost, teaches a plurality of Gods" (Ensign, Nov. 84, pg. 68). Mormon
apostle Bruce
McConkie says, "the Lord Jesus worked out his own salvation" (Our
Relationship with the
Lord, pg. 9).
In the Bible Jesus is worshipped (Man 8:2, Mark 5:8, Luke 24:52, John
9 38, Heb. 1:8).
Mormonism says that Jesus is not to be worshipped. Bruce McConkie
declares, "We do not
worship the Son" (Our Relationship with the Lord, pg . 5) . To a Mormon,
Jesus is merely
"an important member of the Godhead" (Ensign, Jan. 84, pg. 17).
The Biblical Jesus was the most forgiving of men. He declared, "the
Son of man is not
come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" (Luke 9:56) He showed
this in the events
surrounding His crucifixion and resurrection. He was mocked, spit upon,
beaten, and
whipped. Pilate's soldiers crowned Him with thorns. Yet Jesus made no
attempt to defend
Himself, though He could have called upon thousands of angels to aid Him
(Matt 26:53).
As the soldiers nailed Him to the cross, Christ prayed, "Father, forgive
them; for they know
not what they do" (Luke 23:34) At Christ's death there was an earthquake
that tore the veil
of the temple in half but did no other damage (Matt 27-50&51). At His
resurrection there
was another earthquake that also did no damage. Instead, "the graves
were opened; and
many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves"
(Matt 27:52&53).
This is not the Mormon Jesus. The Book of Mormon contains an account
of the events
that supposedly took place in the western hemisphere at Christ's death.
According to this
account, 16 cities were destroyed with all their inhabitants, some being
burned, some
sinking into the sea, and some being buried under tons of earth and
rock.The Book of
Mormon tells us that those who "killed and stoned the prophets, and cast
them out" were
spared, while innocent women and children died (3 Nephi 8:25) When the
destruction was
complete a voice was heard, taking credit for the lives lost and the
cities laid in ruins.
According to the Book of Mormon, the one responsible for this carnage
was "Jesus Christ
the Son of God" (3 Nephi 9:15) Rather than being a Savior, the Mormon
Jesus is a
slaughtered The Christ of the Bible came "that they might have life"
(John lO:lO) The
Mormon Jesus is responsi- ble for the deaths of uncounted thousands.
Mormon leaders have admitted that they believe in another Jesus. One
official of the
Mormon church has declared, "It is true that many of the Christian
churches worship a
different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons" (Ensign, May
77, pg. 26).
There is no salvation in worshipping a false Christ. Jesus Himself
warned His disciples to
beware of false Christs (Matt 24:24) A Jesus who is not the real Jesus
has no power to save.
Only by placing complete trust in the Jesus of the Bible can one obtain
eternal life. Paul
warned of "another Jesus" (ll Cor 11:4) The Mormon Jesus is another
Jesus.
Trusting in the Jesus of Mormonism can never lead to eternal life. The
Bible portrays the
true Jesus and outlines the true plan of salvation. Only the Jesus of
the Bible can offer
eternal life, "for there is none other name under heaven given among
men, whereby we must
be saved" (Acts 4:12)
How does one obtain eternal life? The Bible says, "Believe on the Lord
Jesus Christ, and
thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31) Believe here does not mean to simply
acknowledge Jesus
as the Savior, or to merely say that one believes in Him. The word
believe in the Bible
means to place total and complete trust in Christ, to depend on Him
alone for eternal life.
Church membership cannot save. Baptism cannot save. Good works or good
morals cannot
save. Only the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, can provide
eternal life. The
Bible says, "I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they
shall not profit thee"
(Is 57:12) Jesus s
Resources, and where non-christians can find honest, reasonable answers
about what (and
why) Christians believe.
--- GEcho 1.20/WildCat!
* Origin: Down Country BBS Macomb, OK 405-333-2424 (1:147/48)
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|From: LES WILCOX
|To: DAN CEPPA
|Sub: Who cares?
|Date: 21 Feb 96 00:34:15
EID:e237 20550440
MSGID: 1:147/48 38557585
TID: GE 1.2
->
-> Finally admitting to the fact that you are a hypocrite and a liar.
->
-> LW> If not I'll just answer you on line
-> LW> so that you'll drop this subject.
->
-> Whatever floats your boat, hypocrite.
->
-> LW> What does your god tell you, Ceppa?
->
-> _Your_ god tells me that you are a lying hypocrite.
Creepy
Now I know you're lying. But lets change the subject.
Is it true that you like the Barney song?
Les
--- GEcho 1.20/WildCat!
* Origin: Down Country BBS Macomb, OK 405-333-2424 (1:147/48)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 21 Feb 96 04:09:07
EID:2f7a 20552120
MSGID: 1:106/113 62791975
In a msg on , David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 writes:
BJ>> cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; {18}
BJ>> They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly
BJ>> thing, it shall not hurt them;
DW> "If they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;"
DW> It seems we have a test here that will allow us to determine real
DW> Christians from False ones. I've got a bottle of Drano here. Will
DW> you drink it, so that I can determine if you are a real
DW> Christian?
Much rather see him test his faith by handling serpents. Never seen a man
die from a snake bite before. And, afterall, he quoted such a verse, so
let em die by that verse!
...Brian
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 21 Feb 96 04:11:44
EID:4aa1 20552160
MSGID: 1:106/113 62792a47
In a msg on , David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 writes:
DW> As if it is any different from your blind faith in the efficacy
DW> Curse me, coward. What are you afraid, of?
Alright, I'll give you a curse.
If thou shant believeth in thou god, then mote it be that you
be cursed into the damned, knowing no peace, only darkness for
an eternity! So mote it be, saith the lord gawd.
Problem is, the only way we're ever going to find out if this curse
is remotely valid, is if the both of us land our asses in Hades, or
could that possibly mean only one of us can go to hale, being that
there is evidence (if you concider the scriptures as evidence) that
while in heaven, you can look down into hell and see the souls being
tormented. (hmm, more I read that, the more horrid it is to believe
that their could be this loving christian god these hypocrites, err,
christians believe in!
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 21 Feb 96 04:20:32
EID:0dba 20552280
MSGID: 1:106/113 62794322
In a msg on , David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 writes:
DW> government is not out to get you.
If that is what you really think, then perhaps you are in need of
a psychiatrist. You're living in a dream world my man! The govt is
out to get everybody!
Uncle Sam wants YOU!
DW> Go get laid or something,
That sounds awful christian to me. Not a bad idea at all.
Getting laid is invigorating, reduces stress, and it is being
procreative!
DW> and chill the fuck out.
I will have to argue with you on this one.
Do tell, how does one chill the fuck out? (or in, for that matter?)
(Submit such a responce to Mad Magazine too, and the National Enquirer!
This is something of interest to all of mankind, I would imagine.
Oh, how do you chill out when the need arises?
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: Dan Oglesby
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 21 Feb 96 04:34:02
EID:b6c4 20552440
MSGID: 1:106/113 62795f9d
In a msg on , Karen Davis of 1:207/212 writes:
DO>> For God to remove all of the evil in the world, He would
I for one would like to know why a god would make evil in the
first place!
DO>> Personally I don't like the above scenario. I also don't
DO>> like any scenario that involves abuse of any kind.
An eternal damnation to Hades sounds extremely abusive to me,
even if we send ourselves there by not believing in god and or jesus.
And what is even worse, God created hell! What a sick, evil god this
must be, to come up with such a place!
DO>> He would have altered the scenario in your circumstance, He
DO>> would have been forced to do so for everyone else, to the
DO>> point of infinity.
So much for the idea that god is perfect, eh?
God done fucked up, too too many times!
Do I get an "amen"?
Amen brother! Hal a lu ya!
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: Christians Everywhere
|Sub: Get Saved!
|Date: 21 Feb 96 04:45:58
EID:9eaa 205525a0
MSGID: 1:106/113 6279b423
Hello Mister and Mrs Christian, you too little christian, oh, and
you Miss Christian.
My name is Brian. I am not a christian. But I am aware of the Roman
Road to Salvation. And am pretty familiar with prophesy too, in fact,
I watch many prophesy shows on CBN, to include Hal Lindsey, and
Dr. Jack Van Impe, and the Leland brothers. (may have spelt the latter
name incorrectly, my apologies if I have)
This here note is an invitation to save me from the pits of Hell and
Eternal Damnation. This is NOT a joke! It is however a challenge. If you
knew me, you'd know what a challenge it is!
Here are my beliefs:
1) I do not believe that God (your god) is perfect.
a - because he made lots of errors
1> he made you an me
2> he is jealous (jealousy is imperfection)
3> he created satan (worst boo boo he ever made, apparently)
b - because he is demonstrably imperfect
1> being perfect does not include jealousy and being wrathful & vengeful
2> a loving being does not send one to hell for an eternity of suffering
3> god shows his wickedness and evilness
c - because the scriptures show him as being evil
1> inconcistant in his law
2> fathering jesus, sending him to his death, and turning his back on him
(what kind of father would do that?)
3> the biggest and baddest abortionist of all, responsible for zillions
of deaths all in his name (all knowing? haha!)
God is responsible for the 7 seals? God is going to cause famon and pestulance
and wreak havoc upon nations? (This surely does not make for perfection!)
The Lord God knows all, even before it occurs...so why make a Hell, why
make
rules he knows people are going to break? How can this be described in any
credible way to be holy and just?
Convince me otherwise, show me where I am wrong, IF you can, you can have
another convert and follower of Jesus.
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time --- 713-953-9991 (1:106/113)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 21 Feb 96 09:55:46
EID:c77c 20554ee0
MSGID: 1:123/67 312aecbd
REPLY: 1:352/266 31292112
PID: GED3 2.5.b6 124LM3
19 Feb 96 17:21, quoting Masochistic Maiden to Dan Ceppa:
MM> Hmmmmm what is the purpose in debunking another's faith?
That's what this echo is about. You have a simple choice. Either live
with it or find another echo.
MM> If a person
MM> chooses to not have a faith, that is their decision.
Just is it is their decision to participate in HOLYSMOKE.
MM> As for backing up all claims with facts, and not conjecture or simple
MM> belief.... that is indeed a difficult task when discussing belief
MM> systems.
What do you believe in?
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Big Nippled Turtles
|Date: 21 Feb 96 09:59:44
EID:bc68 20554f60
MSGID: 1:123/67 312aed62
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 f7250af9
PID: GED3 2.5.b6 124LM3
19 Feb 96 09:49, quoting Marilyn Burge to Masochistic Maiden:
MB> We are big on giving a damn about subject lines. I've seen
MB> SPONG ON THE CREEDS now for at least two months after the
MB> last mention of Bishop Spong or any of his writings. You,
MB> of course, are free to change a subject line any time you
MB> choose, whether anybody else does or not.
There was a virtual war in another echo about subject lines. Needless
to say, the complainers were badly bloodied in the fray.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Claims
|Date: 21 Feb 96 10:06:07
EID:e9ae 205550c0
MSGID: 1:123/67 312aeee4
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8928460C
PID: GED3 2.5.b6 124LM3
19 Feb 96 21:59, quoting Michael Hardy to John Prewett:
MH> Of course. Only theists have to actually back up their claims.
MH> Haven't you been paying attention?
Oh? What claims have atheists been making, Michael? What claims have
atheists _not_ backed up? Please be specific, and yes, you are whining.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: spontaneous abortion
|Date: 19 Feb 96 06:12:00
EID:7980 20533180
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
MH> Except that smoking, drinking to excess and using drugs when you're
MH> not ill *are* self-destructive behaviors. The woman doesn't have to
MH> know she's pregnant to damage the fetus, while doing things that also
MH> damage herself.
The POINT is, Mike, that a woman who ***DOESN'T*** do any, repeat any, of
these things is still just as likely to miscarry. And the person Lynda
was replying to had said that MOST spontaneous abortions come from women
who abuse drugs and alcohol. Or are stressed.
The FACT is that he is wrong. Dead wrong. Spontaneous abortions happen to
1/3 to 1/2 (some think even higher) of ALL pregnancies, regardless of
circumstances. If smoking, drinking and drugs were the causative factors
in miscarriage, then we would have NO babies born to mothers who do them,
now would we?
... One day you will find yourself and be quite disappointed.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #33
* Origin: Regulator BBS, Charleston, SC, 803-571-1100 (1:372/14.0)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 19 Feb 96 06:19:00
EID:9cf7 20533260
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Brian Kolacy <=-
MH> Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
And that's what makes it so strange...that they need not, but do anyway.
While those who believe in a moral standard 'handed down from on high' so
often seem to spend more time trying to get around that standard that they
profess is so important for EVERYONE to adhere to.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #33
* Origin: Regulator BBS, Charleston, SC, 803-571-1100 (1:372/14.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 19 Feb 96 06:24:00
EID:f5b4 20533300
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Judith Bandsma <=-
SA> I'm familiar with the evils of sexism, Judith. I merely believe that
You are familiar with the THEORY of sexism, Styx. Just as I am familiar
with
the THEORY of racism. Never having experienced it, I cannot say that I truly
understand it.
> You've never known what it's like to look at that glass ceiling.
SA>
SA> I've been on the opposite end of reverse discrimination before.
SA> I was turned down for a job at a pet store because I was a man.
And the woman they hired probably would be paid only $.65 to every dollar
they would have had to pay you. Some employers embrace affirmative action
just for that reason. For some (and I'm NOT saying all) it is easier to
tell
you that they 'have' to hire someone else than to tell you they don't want
to pay you properly. Well, at least we're closer to wage parity. It hasn't
been that long ago that women only earned $.47 to every dollar a man would
earn
in the same position.
SA> I don't deny that creeps such as you describe exist. I merely
SA> take issue with the implication that "the majority of" men
SA> are supposedly like that.
The majority of white, influential males ARE like that, Styx. They don't
want to upset THEIR status quo and are usually in the positions to make
sure they don't have to. None of us understand why people hold positions
that
we feel are destructive. I don't understand why people see blacks and gays
as such a threat...simply because I don't feel threatened. You don't see
why anyone should feel threatened by females, but the fact is that they
do.
And when you have exclusionary power combined with bigoted attitudes, what
do you get? A power structure that will find ways to block any intrusion
by
'others'. I happen to be one of those 'others'.
... Revenge is damp - any cat.
--- TriToss (tm) Professional 10.0 - #33
* Origin: Regulator BBS, Charleston, SC, 803-571-1100 (1:372/14.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 372/14 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 05:35:00
EID:3a6b 20552c60
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
MH> It's a lie. One of his advisors once made a speech to a gun-owners
MH> group, and a couple of white supremacists were in the audience.
Sorry, Mike, this is where you are wrong. Leo, knowing nothing about the
discussion here, brought me home the Jacksonville newspaper. The woman
who was heading the Florida campaign for Buchanan is the chair person for
for the NAAWP, a group that is mainly peopled with KKK'ers who want to look
a bit more reasonable.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/14 97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: DOUBLE STANDARD ALERT
|Date: 21 Feb 96 06:05:00
EID:a7cd 205530a0
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> If a Christian expressed glee over the prospect of someone
MH> contracting AIDS, the response would be .... what?
DW> Still looking vainly for a double standard, Knee-Jerk? "SA" doesn't
Mike also seems to forget the glee a lot of fundamentalists DO take in
the rate of AIDS among gays. Jerry Falwell springs to mind...as does the
Brother Jimmy under discussion. They want to play down the fact that AIDS
is growing fastest among straight, white teenagers, but hey...it's a
'judgement from god that will rid us of the pestilence of homosexuality'.
The rest are just collateral damage.
... He is a self-made man, and worships his creator.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 13:29:00
EID:db48 20556ba0
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
MH> Evidence, please.
The next few posts should present it to you...**IF** you will bother to
read the whole thing and not start justifying everything from the start.
One post is from someone who lives in Colorado Springs and deals with
FoF every day, on the street...upclose and personal. The other is from
Dobson himself. Full of lies, inaccuracies and inflammatory rhetoric.
Read it and then tell me that FoF is not a hate group.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/14 97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: [1/3] FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 12:37:00
EID:87a7 205564a0
>>> Part 1 of 3...
[Please Note: The opinions below are those of the author, NOT
those of the Department or the University.]
[Please Note: Portions of this letter are not suitable for
children.]
August 1995
Dear Friends,
I want to talk to you this month about what could be the most
important topic I've addressed in many years. This matter has
profound implications for the institution of the family and for
what we have called "the defense of righteousness," yet it will
not be covered adequately by the secular press. Thus, I'm asking
that you give particular attention to the words that follow, even
if you don't often read my written comments. The events about to
unfold on the world scene are almost beyond comprehension.
From Aug. 30 to Sept. 15, 1995, delegates from more than 170
sovereign nations will attend the United Nations Fourth World
Conference on Women in Beijing, China. It will represent the most
radical, atheistic and anti-family crusade in the history of the
world, and your own government is pulling the strings and
supporting a disproportionate share of the costs. The extremists
who are preparing for and promoting this conference are a million
miles outside the American mainstream, and yet they will be
speaking in Beijing with the authority of the United States
government. The more I learn about what these radical feminists
want to impose on the human family, the more appalled I am that
so few churches, Christian magazines and religious radio stations
have chosen to alert our citizens to the implicit danger. It is a
mystery, in fact, how such enormous threats to our spiritual and
cultural heritage could have slithered into our midst without due
notice or alarm.
Make no mistake about it: most of what Christianity stands for
will be challenged during this atheistic conference. Every good
and perfect gift from the hand of the Creator will be mocked and
vilified by many of its delegates. That is their agenda. That is
their program. And if they have their way, the family as it has
been known since antiquity will cease to exist. Let me try to
spell out what is about to occur on the other side of the globe.
First, consider where this international event will be held. No
country on earth has abused and oppressed more women than China,
with its forced abortion policy and its "one child per family"
law. This is a nation that monitors menstrual cycles so it can
identify young women with unapproved pregnancies and drag them
into medical clinics to have their babies killed. It is also a
country that has murdered tens of millions of female infants.
[Interjection by me; this is a blatant lie as regards the Chinese gov't.
They don't care what sex the one child is, as long as there is only one.
Girls are not monitored and women are not 'dragged into clinics' nor has
'the country' murdered tens of millions of female infants. The Chinese
society itself...the people of China, and their ancient customs, have always
held females to be of less worth and infanticide of females is a custom
that goes back as far as the country itself. While a despicable custom,
FoF
could, at least, tell the truth about it.]
So effective has been its bias against the feminine gender that the
sex-ratio in large regions of China favors males by 64
percent.[1] What irony, then, that the people who have
annihilated their little girls will host a conference on the
betterment of women. What breathtaking wickedness! And to their
shame, President Bill Clinton and his First Lady, Hillary, have
committed the resources of the United States government to this
travesty. Indeed, at the same time of this writing, Hillary was
the likely chairperson to lead the American delegation to China.
[2] Sending a delegation to China should be unthinkable for two
other reasons. First, Sen. Jesse Helms, chairman of the U.S.
Senate Foreign Relations Committee, held hearings in May to
investigate a deeply disturbing practice occurring inside China.
A half-dozen witnesses testified that the Chinese government is
satisfying its needs for hard cash by executing young prisoners
and then "harvesting" their organs while their bodies are still
warm. Sue Lloyd-Roberts, a BBC reporter, and Harry Wu, who spent
19 years in China's forced labor camps, showed the senators a
shocking videotape of the actual executions. (I also saw a
similar videotape while in Scotland three years ago.) Standing
nearby were surgical vans and medical teams waiting to
cannibalize the bodies just moments after death. The organs thus
extracted are sold at black-market prices to Westerners desperate
for kidneys, hearts, livers, corneas, etc. Who knows how this
lucrative market for body parts has influenced China's
inclination to kill young men and women accused of various minor
offenses? Even without this financial incentive, prisoners have
been executed historically for simply disagreeing with their
government. Mr. Wu reported that he witnessed such an execution
of a fellow inmate in 1970 who had merely written "Down with
Chairman Mao" on a cigarette pack.[3] (Late information: In early
May, Wu was arrested in Northern China and charged with espionage
and high treason. If convicted, he will be sentenced to
death.)[4]
If that isn't enough to turn one's stomach, consider this:
According to World (which also reported the practice described
above), human fetuses have begun to appear on menus of Chinese
restaurants as a delicacy and health tonic. This account was
cited:
"To investigate widespread rumors that unborn human
beings were being sought and eaten to improve
complexions and promote general well-being, an Eastern
Express reporter on March 1 entered the state-run
Shenzhen Health Center for Women and Children and
requested a fetus for a feigned illness. A female
doctor told the reporter the department had run out of
fetuses, but to come back.
"The next day, according to the paper, the reporter
returned at lunch time. The doctor eventually emerged
from the operating theater holding a fist-sized glass
bottle stuffed with thumb-sized fetuses. She said,
'There are 10 fetuses here, all aborted this morning.
You can take them. We are a state hospital and don't
charge anything. Normally we doctors take them home to
eat[--]all free. Since you don't look well, you can
take them."'[5]
[The Eastern Express reporter, if you will note, is not named. EE is a
religious based 'newspaper' that, if you will excuse the expression, is
so
full of shit they stink. The Hague Yearly Meeting reports that their
missionaries in China refute this claim in the strongest terms. It is, quite
simply, a tactic to stir indignation against both abortion AND the Chinese.]
It is incredible that the Clinton administration has not only
approved U.S. support for a conference on women's rights in such
a country, but it has also granted "most favored nation" trade
status to it as well. According to the President, there is no
connection between China's abuse of human rights and our economic
policies. All that matters, apparently, is that we profit
financially from the relationship.
Since the issue of whether or not to go to China is no longer
debatable, we must ask what the conference organizers hope to
accomplish while they are there? What is their agenda? What can
we anticipate during those 17 fateful days? To answer these
questions, we should look first at who is representing us. The
official U.N. Document which will be promoted in Beijing was
written by a virtual who's who of radical feminists. Chief among
them is that veteran sexist warrior, Bella Abzug. Abzug headed
the infamous International Women's Conference in Houston which
was designed to destroy the family back in 1977. We can thank
President Jimmy Carter and his wife, Rosalyn, for turning that
government-sponsored event over to the likes of Abzug, Gloria
Steinem, Jane Fonda and Betty Friedan. Watching them on
television as they ripped into everything I believed actually
motivated me to join the pro-family movement. When President
Carter announced his follow-up White House Conferences on the
Family two years later, I said to myself, "Not this time, sir.
Not this time!" So what a surprise, 18 years later, to see many
of the same revolutionaries making even more outrageous plans for
the family.
Abzug is a strange choice to be in charge of anything these days.
The Washington Times referred to her as "a fixture in old left
activism." She was an avid supporter of Soviet dictator Josef
Stalin during her days at Hunter College, and she led rallies for
the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War.[7] Referring to the
election of Bill Clinton in 1992, she said, "God forbid, or
Goddess forbid, [that] he should lose."[8] She resigned as a
congresswoman to run for the U.S. Senate, and lost.[9] She ran
for mayor of New York City and finished third in a primary
race.[10] Then she ran again for Congress and lost.[11] Her views
are so far off base even the liberal media often ignore them.
Nevertheless, this woman, a radical to the core who represents
only her leftist cohorts, has become our official spokesperson on
morals and the family. She has told us what kind of person
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/14 97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: [3/3] FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 12:37:00
EID:5e04 205564a0
>>> Part 3 of 3...
in New York Harbor on June 6, 1993.[25] These women had made the
long and perilous journey to our shores to escape forced abortion
in their homeland. They requested asylum as permitted by an
existing U.S. immigration policy which granted shelter to those
who had fled from forced abortions, forced sterilization, or
other forms of persecution associated with coercive population
control programs. These 180 frightened women clearly met the
provisions of this long-standing policy, but the Clinton
administration was unsympathetic to their plight. After all, the
President favors population control efforts around the world, and
he had no intention of harboring refugees from its oppression.
Thus, he reversed our immigration policy in August 1994 and
placed the women in various prisons and jails around the
country.[26] They remain there to this day, except for 15, who
were scheduled on June 23, 1995, to be granted temporary asylum
in Quito, Ecuador. Presumably, the remaining women will soon be
returned to China where they will face an angry and embarrassed
government. (A late development: Our State Department has denied,
at least temporarily, permission for the 15 Chinese women to be
sent to Ecuador![27] And... the Immigration and Naturalization
Service has just torpedoed Rep. Chris Smith's (R-N.J.) efforts to
invite the Chinese women to testify at Congressional
hearings.[28] How do you spell C-O-V-E-R U-P?)
[RIIIIIGHT! These women left China in a boat, but only ran aground when
they hit NEW YORK harbor. Oh well, if you believe that, I guess you can
believe the rest of it.]
The civil rights organization Voice for Life recently issued the
following statement about the immigrants: "While all the Chinese
refugees had hoped to live in freedom in the United States, they
are all exhausted from their extended period of incarceration,
and they are tired of being treated like criminals."[29]
Let me see, now[--]what are the words engraved on the Statue of
Liberty standing a short distance from where the Golden Venture
ran aground? Don't they say, "Give me your tired, your poor, your
huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."?
This travesty reminds me of the large contingent of desperate
Jews who sailed away from Nazi Germany in 1939, only to be denied
immigration in the United States. No country would accept them,
and they were eventually shipped back to Germany to face Hitler's
gas chambers.[30] It was one of the most shameful acts in U.S.
history. The rejection and incarceration of 180 Chinese women
today is almost as reprehensible. But... support for world
population control is the official policy of this administration,
and it has no sympathy for those who flee from it! So onward to
Beijing we go!
A footnote to the sordid story related above: Can we forget that
in 1993, just before the immigration policy was changed to
exclude those fleeing forced abortion, the Clinton administration
fought hard for HIV-infected patients to be granted admittance to
this country. Congress overruled the President by an overwhelming
vote. I guess it comes down to this: Contagious HIV patients:
"Yes." Oppressed Chinese mothers: "No way!"
Despite the distressing news I have shared, I hope you won't get
discouraged. This band of left-wing radicals that is heading up
our delegation to Beijing does not represent the great American
people. The insanity of their agenda is not on the ascent[--]it's
on its way out. Our country is becoming increasingly
conservative, not more liberal. Indeed, the conference in China
may represent the twilight of an outrageous idea that has run its
course at home. If we can just keep the ultra-liberals from
exporting their failed policies around the world, there may be
light at the end of the tunnel.
Before resorting to panic, therefore, we must remember Whom we
are working for! I was reminded of that good news after a church
service Shirley and I attended last Sunday. A man I didn't know
came up and shook my hand. Without even introducing himself he
said, "I just attended a reunion of my family, and so many of my
relatives said they were praying for you." With that, he began to
cry and walked away. I was overwhelmed to realize that this man
and his family had been on their knees, asking the Lord to bless
and protect me and this ministry. I know there are thousands of
other wonderful folks who are holding us up in prayer day after
day. That is what keeps us going in these times.
In conclusion, let me remind you that it is expensive to send a
delegation to China and to support all that Focus on the Family
is committed to doing. We need your help to get the job done. And
we'd like to hear from you when time permits.
God's richest blessings to you all.
Sincerely,
James C. Dobson, Ph.D.
President
P.S. For the benefit of the skeptical, let me assure you that
every word in this letter has been carefully documented. Nothing
has been exaggerated or overstated. A quick examination of the
official U.N. draft document will confirm the mess our government
has created.
Endnotes
[And, although it says 'endnotes' there...there were no endnotes]
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/14 97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: [1/2] Out of Focus
|Date: 21 Feb 96 13:26:00
EID:a8ee 20556b40
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Date: 25 August 1993
Subject: What's wrong with the Religious Right
From: citizens@cscns.com (David Bruce, PhD; Member, Citizens Project)
X-Copyright: Copyright (c) 1993 by David Bruce. This material may
be freely copied and distributed for noncommercial purposes
provided that this notice remains intact. Commercial use of
this material requires prior written permission from the author.
X-Disclaimer: THIS MATERIAL DOES NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE VIEWS OF
CITIZENS PROJECT. IT IS PROVIDED SOLELY AS A SERVICE TO OUR
PARTICIPANTS.
Several months ago, on a bright, sunny Sunday afternoon, a young
woman and middle aged man rang my doorbell. When I answered, the
young woman somewhat nervously stated that they had come to confirm
"the census" and asked if I would be "good enough" to participate.
I was a little suspicious: "You mean the official U.S. census?"
They both nodded affirmatively, so I asked the young woman "Where
are you from?" I looked at her; she looked at the middle aged man
and he smiled benevolently and said, "From your local neighborhood
church." My suspicion grew; I couldn't help but ask the young
woman, why she hadn't responded to my question, didn't she know
where she was from? But never mind, confirming the census sounded
like a civic-minded thing to do regardless of who was putting in
the leg work, so I agreed to participate. "Alright, first
question: 'Do you believe in God Almighty?" We had just exceeded
my limit of tolerable deviance. As a Unitarian, I've actively
encouraged tolerance and have developed a sincere personal
appreciation for religious and cultural diversity. But I can't
stand being lied to; I lost my temper: "There were no questions
about God (Almighty or otherwise) on the census; I know; I filled
it out; You're lying to me; Why would you lie? Did 'my local
neighborhood church' send you here to lie to me? Does Jesus know
what you're doing?" By the time I paused to take a breath, they
were already half way down the walkway; she, near tears and he
assuring her that I was possessed (or something like that).
I had acted badly and I knew it; I was frustrated and disappointed
with my own response. Clearly, they were in the wrong but what I
had done probably just confirmed all their negative stereotypes of
people, like me, who might not choose to attend their "local
neighborhood church". Who were these "church" people, and what
made them think they had the right to intrude on my Sunday
afternoon under false pretenses? Over the next several months, my
activities with Citizens Project allowed me a better understanding
of what had transpired that afternoon. As you know, Citizens
Project is a non profit group concerned about threats to public and
private civil liberties posed by certain factions of the religious
right. As a member of Citizens Project Board, I've had the
opportunity to meet with senior executives from Focus on the
Family, attend one of their "Community Impact" seminars and also
talk with several other folks involved with "the religious right".
Some of what I've discovered might interest you.
Most of my information has been drawn from pamphlets and programs
provided by one particular group: Focus on the Family. I hasten to
point out that Focus is by no means the most extreme group on "the
religious right". In fact, they speak very pejoratively of the
"loose canons", "Bible-thumpers" and "bomb-throwers" whom they see
as having gone "too far". I really think Focus expected those of
us from Citizens Project they invited to attend their day-long
Community Impact Seminar to return and reassure the rest of you
that we had nothing to fear from Focus. They miscalculated.
The Community Impact Seminar provided considerable evidence that
Focus fully intends to impose their own "Christian solutions" on a
wide variety of complex social problems. Claiming the scriptures
as the "exclusive", "literal" and "inerrant" word of God, their
agenda involves removing barriers between church and state and
"re"establishing "Christian rule" in America. Although they've
discovered that Christian television and radio programs provide a
very effective way to connect "like-minded Christians", the seminar
made it clear that social activism in local neighborhood churches
is also necessary. Replacing traditional "works of mercy" with "a
quest for justice" through locally-coordinated economic and
political action transforms their fundamentalist, evangelical
beliefs from a source of personal values and spiritual strength to
a framework for social, political and judicial change. During the
seminar, Focus made a number of theological, philosophical and
historical claims concerning the identity of those who shared their
views. Before suggesting how we might counter the threat I think
they pose, it is important for you to understand who they really
are.
Spiritual Claims
Theologically and spiritually speaking, Focus on the Family claims
to represent traditional Christian beliefs and values. They paint
themselves as somewhat moderate, mainstream representatives of the
faith; however, even the surveys they used during the seminar
presentations suggested that only a minority of Americans who
"claim" to be Christians really accept the Bible as the exclusive,
literal and inerrant word of God. A friend, who heads a Biblical
Christian organization (seen by some as being even more
conservative than Focus) was very quick to admit that the Bible is
full of metaphors (i.e., it is not literal). While there are many
who claim to be Christians who insist that the Bible is the only
(i.e., exclusive) divine revelation, many others accept the
possibility that other great religious works also contain
revelation and enlightenment. Many such moderate Christians are
embarrassed by the dogmatic and exclusive perspectives put forward
by groups such as Focus and are eager to disassociate themselves
from such groups.
In his book, Evil: the Shadow Side of Reality, author John Sanford
recounts the story of the grand inquisitor from Dostoevsky's The
Brothers Karamazov. Basically, Christ has returned to earth and
the grand inquisitor has had him thrown in prison. It's not that
the grand inquisitor believes Jesus is an imposter; the grand
inquisitor accuses Jesus of having come back to disturb and disrupt
the work the church has been carrying out in his name. The
inquisitor claims that the church has "corrected" Christ's
teachings which had placed on mankind the impossible burden of
being free but which led to too much misery. The church had lifted
this burden of freedom so that people could be happy. Needless to
say, Sanford as well as many others who call themselves Christians
do not share the grand inquisitors perspective. As Sanford
suggests:
The greatest ethical value, according to Jesus, is to become a free
person, and this means a conscious person... When we are told to
conform to a standard of goodness imposed by collective authority,
and to repress everything from our consciousness that contradicts
this, we have lost our freedom; we are no longer conscious people
responsible for ourselves. But in Jesus' ethic man is left with
the alternatives life poses, the problem of his own duality and the
necessity for psychological honesty. Growth in consciousness is
valued more highly by Jesus than conformity to "goodness." Freedom
is of the highest psychological value, because this alone makes
possible the development of consciousness and love. (p.83)
Focus' implicit insistence on accepting a particular interpretation
of scripture as the literal and inerrant "truth" obviates
individual conscious decision making. The perspective taken by the
grand inquisitor and Focus on the Family requires individual
cognitive abstinence. However, it is unfair to blame Christianity
itself for the imposition of mind-numbing servitude as the price of
salvation. There are still grand inquisitors among us but many
modern Christians I know are much more comfortable with the
perspective Sanford expresses.
One last point to be made involves the claim of the "inerrancy" of
the scriptures. The belief that a work as extensive and eclectic
as the Bible is without error necessarily rests on the assumption
that the work itself is without internal contradiction. However,
when we read in Matthew 5:9: "Blessed are the peacemakers", it is
a little disconcerting to read Jesus' words several chapters later
(Matthew 10:34) "Think not that I come to send peace on earth, I
come not to send peace but to send a sword." Similarly there
appears to be an inconsistency between the admonition in Matthew
(26:52) that "All that take the sword shall perish by it." and the
direction in Luke (22:36) that "He who hath no sword, let him sell
his garments and buy one". However, it is in Luke (6:27) where
Jesus tells his disciples to "Love thine enemies; do good to them
that hate you" but John (2:15) tells that in dealing with his own
enemies (the money changers in the temple), Jesus "made a scourge
of small cords and drove them out of the temple ... and poured out
the changer's money and overthrew their tables" (tough love
perhaps?).
In an attempt to understand Focus on the Family's support of
Amendment 2, a friend of mine called and asked for Biblical
references for their position. She was referred to the story of
Lot and the Sodomites in the book of Genesis. Here's how the story
goes: two angels were visiting Lot one afternoon, when a rowdy
crowd from nearby Sodom came by and demanded that Lot send out the
young men that they (the Sodomites) might know them (in the
Biblical sense). Being a man of high virtue who loved God, Lot
resisted and said "No; ...take my young daughters instead."
Several chapters later, the young daughters exact their revenge by
getting Lot drunk and partying with him all night long (in the
modern sense of the word). We all know what God did to Sodom (and
Gomorrah as well) and I suspect if
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: [2/2] Out of Focus
|Date: 21 Feb 96 13:26:00
EID:581e 20556b40
>>> Part 2 of 2...
obscure letter to a friend. The words of John Jay, first Chief
Justice of the Supreme Court were offered as being much more
representative of the perspective shared by our founding fathers:
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and
it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of a
Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for its rulers"
(p.19)
In an earlier article, Hocus Focus, I present a number of
historical quotations which directly contradict this claim. From
Franklin's "lighthouses are more useful than churches", to John
Adam's dissertation on Canon and Feudal Law which vehemently warns
of the danger of intertwining issues of church and state, to Thomas
Paine's tirades against the Bible and hierarchically-imposed
religious beliefs and Thomas Jefferson's authorship of a his own
New Testament which deliberately omits the resurrection and
ascension, it is clear that many of "our founding fathers" would
have been just as uncomfortable with Focus' current approach as you
and I are. In particular, the implication that these men were the
kind of Christians who would be attentively tuned to Dr. Dobson
every afternoon seems unimaginable. They were certainly men of
high moral character, sincerely committed to creating a system
which promoted life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but
there were few Focus-style fundamentalists or grand inquisitors
among them.
The Current Situation
So the Focus approach is neither Christian nor Objectivist and is
without the historical foundation they assert. Nonetheless, groups
like this on the religious right represent a force to be reckoned
with, both nationally and locally. Nationally, these groups were
featured prominently at the Republican Convention (and some have
suggested with disastrous electoral consequences). Television
evangelist, Pat Robertson, who already controls two television
networks and numerous radio stations, recently offered to purchase
United Press International. Our own local Focus on the Family
grosses 10's of millions of dollars annually. During a tour of
their facilities, they told us they receive 10,000 letters and
2,000 phone calls daily and respond to every one in less than 5
working days. Locally, Focus employs over 900 employees, all of
whom have accepted a statement of fundamentalist religious beliefs
as a condition of employment. And as I suggested previously, Focus
is by no means the most extreme of the groups on the religious
right. Over 50 other national, evangelical or fundamentalist
"Christian" organizations already have headquarters here in
Colorado Springs and reports suggest that more are on their way.
Our Response
What can we do? We can't ignore them - we and those we care about
have too much to lose. We can't fight them - letting our anger and
frustration out plays directly into the hands of our adversaries;
they strive to be models of good citizenship; they've learned a lot
from the likes of Hargis, Swaggert and Baker; it's unlikely they'll
get caught with their fingers in the cookie jar. We can't even
join them - their loyalty oath would exclude most of us. Even
dialog with them is problematic; their views and values render them
untrustworthy. Their standard of truth is scriptural consistency,
not objective, empirical evidence or logical coherence. As our
experience with the campaign they waged in support of Amendment 2
attests, they are ready, willing, and able to misrepresent
themselves and their beliefs for the purposes of social or
political expediency.
We are unlikely to change them; we must accept responsibility for
changing ourselves. There is little we can do directly to persuade
them that sex education does not encourage promiscuity, condoms do
not spread Aids, the legal availability of abortions do not
increase teenage pregnancies, homosexuals are not out to recruit
their children, humanists are not out to destroy their families and
tolerance is not really a dirty word. These are their beliefs and
we can't change them until they start looking at evidence and
listening to reason. As I said, what we can change is ourselves:
we must become VITAL. We must renew our commitment to be active
participants in a free and constitutional democracy; we must
reclaim our roles and responsibilities as "citizens". For me, each
of the five letters in the word VITAL serves as a reminder for what
I must do to contribute as a citizen: V - Visible; I - Informed; T
- Truthful; A - Accountable and L - Liberal.
Thomas Jefferson once said all tyranny needs to gain a foothold is
for people of good conscience to remain silent. The two-to-one
margin of victory Amendment 2 received in this community has given
license to some to openly express their narrow-minded and
hate-filled bigotry in even public settings and over the public
airways. When we sit silently; others assume we're condoning or
concurring with these opinions. The voice of love and reason are
soft but extremely powerful. Living in this town gives each of us
many opportunities to exercise or commitment to traditional values
such as liberty, tolerance and cultural diversity. Each of us must
become more Visible. Some of you may have heard of Ruth Williams,
a therapist who was viciously attacked early one Saturday morning
in her office. After she had been knocked unconscious, Mace was
sprayed in her face, shoes and socks, religious slogans were spray
painted on the walls of her office, crosses scratched on her hand
and back, a knife stuck the last edition of Freedom Watch to her
door and the Celebrate Diversity bumper sticker on her car covered
with spray paint. I don't know Ruth, but Doug and Amy were in
contact with her to provide Citizens Project's support. At the end
of the initial conversation, Amy asked Ruth, "Is there anything at
all you need that we might be able to provide?" After a short
pause, Ruth replied, "Could I get another bumper sticker?"
Being courageous is not enough; we also must be Informed. Without
knowledge, we might even find ourselves being persuaded by the
simple solutions the religious right proposes. Equally dangerous
is the problem of automatically opposing any position simply on the
knowledge that it has been proposed by the religious right. We
cannot let others do our thinking for us. What kind of God would
give us a mind and not expect us to use it? We must learn to
cherish our doubts and actively seek answers to our questions by
conducting our own research and constructing our own arguments.
Some of the material put out by the religious right contains useful
data and revealing arguments. Its hard to form our own opinions if
we are unfamiliar with alternative arguments and perspectives. It
is, however, a mistake to take their publications at face value:
they will not hesitate to cite articles that have never been
published or ones written by PhDs who've been censored by
professional societies for academic fraud; they lift quotations out
of context to distort their meaning; and often seek only the most
outrageous representatives or spokes-persons to characterize the
views of those who oppose them.
Isn't it appropriate to fight fire with fire? Shouldn't we put our
heads together and create the most compelling counter-arguments to
their claims in order to persuade the masses of their infamy?
Before you say "yes!", stop for a moment and consider your
assumptions about other human beings. If you share the assumptions
of these new age grand inquisitors, then such a strategy might make
sense. Their religion teaches that humankind is naturally sinful
and incapable of thoughtful reflection. Time and again at the
Community Impact Seminar we were reminded that most of us can't
really think but can "only rearrange our prejudices". On the other
hand if you begin with more positive assumptions about humankind,
then creating misleading propaganda is inconsistent. As Marshall
McLuan suggested: the medium is the message; and we must be
consistent; we must be honest; we must be Truthful. We must make
every effort to listen objectively to evidence from all sources and
fairly represent both sides of arguments and alternative positions.
We cannot resist religious tyranny by ourselves becoming
narrow-minded bigots. (Besides someone must teach the religious
fanatics the importance of ethical behavior to a free society.)
We must also be Accountable. Although we may not agree that being
human is synonymous with being sinful, we also recognize that it is
not the same as being perfect. Making mistakes seems to be one of
the most common characteristics of the human condition (at least as
I've experienced it). When mistakes occur we must admit them and
then work to redress any harm we have done. Unlike, those on the
religious right who don't make mistakes because the Bible is the
absolute, exclusive and inerrant word of God (and they have many
worthy clergy to interpret it for them); we're stuck with having to
make decisions under considerable uncertainty. Our knowledge is
often incomplete and our principles somewhat fallible. Once we
accept responsibility for making our own decisions, we also become
responsible for monitoring the social and human consequences of
those decisions. Life is complicated and sometimes things don't go
as we intended them to; when that happens we can't ignore our
responsibility or blame the outcome on metaphysical others. A
willingness to be personally accountable for our decisions is
another requisite of democratic citizenship.
And finally we must become more Liberal. I realize this word has
many meanings, some of which have unpleasant or even pejorative
connotations for some of you. What I mean by becoming more liberal
is loving liberty more fully and completely; recognizing that
whatever rights we might claim for ourselves we must gladly bestow
on others. It also means accepting diversity and working to create
systems where wo
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: part 2
|Date: 21 Feb 96 13:36:00
EID:b58f 20556c80
For some reason, Blue Wave grunged your name on the header. I didn't see
it
until the unpacking after it was uploaded. (It was fine when I proofed it)
To everyone else...sorry for the repost.
Ä Area: Holy_Smoke! ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 40787 Date: 54-24-63 00:00
From: Judith Bandsma Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Dec Mark:
Subj: [2/3] FOF UPDATE, STAAL
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
>>> Part 2 of 3...
mankind, of course. It contradicts Genesis 1:27, which
reads, "So God created man in His own image, in the image of
God he created him; male and female he created them." It
also ignores the words of Jesus, who said, "Haven't you read
that at the beginning the Creator made them male and
female...." Then He said, "For this reason a man will leave
his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two
will become one flesh" (Matthew 19:4-5).
In this instance and so many others, the draft document to
be promoted in Beijing is utterly disdainful of the King of
kings and Lord of lords. But before casting Him aside as
irrelevant, our delegates should take a look at the
Scripture that warns, "Do not be deceived; God cannot be
mocked." (Galatians 6:7).
3. The primary objective in Beijing will be the same as a
similar event held last year in Cairo, Egypt. That
conference was designed to promote safe-sex ideology, condom
usage and "reproductive rights"," (i.e., free and
unrestricted access to abortion) in every nation of the
[Another lie by FoF. 'Reproductive Rights' only briefly touched on abortion,
the major thrust was the right of access to birth control, legal sterilization,
an end to female circumcision.]
world. That was another scary time for the family. It looked
as though the Clinton administration and the radical
feminists would spread their revolutionary idea around the
world. Indeed, there was very little opposition to them.
Leaders of most evangelical denominations sat on the
sidelines, 6,000 miles away, and ignored the storm clouds
gathering in Cairo. Thanks almost entirely to the opposition
of Pope John Paul II and many other Roman Catholic leaders,
the goals of the radicals were not achieved. Rather than
giving up, however, they simply regrouped and began
preparing for a final putsch in Beijing.
In coercing reluctant countries to adopt feminist ideas
about abortion and safe-sex ideology, a carrot-and-stick
approach will be used. United States aid programs for
underdeveloped nations will be linked to the willingness of
foreign governments to implement these "population control"
measures. Those that balk, including predominately Islamic
and Catholic nations, will be threatened with reduced
foreign aid. This coercion is deeply resented in many areas
of the world where people perceive the United States as the
800 pound gorilla throwing its weight around. They also
complain that they can't get help in developing clean water
supplies and medical support, but they can get condoms by
the millions[--]whether they want them or not.[17] Indeed,
President Clinton has requested $635 million in the 1996
budget for international population control and another $400
million at home![18] And, that's your tax money they're
using to kill babies and give condoms to kids.
[Non-inflammatory rhetoric, eh, Mike?]
By the way, President Clinton recently repeated his campaign
statement that "abortion should be safe, legal and rare."
How can he utter those farcical words at the very moment he
is involved to his eyeteeth in the promotion of abortion in
every nation on earth?
4. Homosexual and lesbian rights are central to the philosophy
driving the conference. The Lesbian Caucus played a
prominent role during meetings of the "preparation
committee" at the United Nations. The Gay and Lesbian Human
Rights Commission also issued a declaration which reads, in
part, "We, the undersigned, call upon the Member States to
recognize the right to determine one's sexual identity; the
right to control one's own body, particularly in
establishing intimate relationships; and the right to choose
if, when, and with whom to bear or raise children as
fundamental components of all human rights of all women
regardless of sexual orientation."[19]
Relating again to "the deconstruction of gender" described
above, the goal is to give members of the human family five
genders from which to choose instead of two. When freed from
traditional biases, a person can decide whether to be male,
female, homosexual, lesbian, or transgendered. Some may want
to try all five in time. Homosexuality is considered the
moral equivalent of heterosexuality.[20] For women, however,
the preferred love relationship is lesbian in nature. In
that way male oppressiveness can be negated. Artificial
insemination is the ideal method of producing a pregnancy,
and a lesbian partner should have the same parenting rights
accorded historically to biological fathers. [21]
5. Finally (and there is much more I can't cover in this
letter), the official draft document is extremely hostile to
religion[--]especially that which gender feminists have
demonized as "fundamentalists." By fundamentalists, they
refer to Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox Christians,
Orthodox Jews, Muslims, and any other persons whose
religious views contradict feminist dogma. Nothing, they
say, has done more to oppress women or limit their
aspirations than these patriarchal religious beliefs and
teachings. Unbelievably, the people who are representing our
great nation in Beijing are openly antagonistic to what most
of you and I believe with all our hearts.[22]
Now, some of my readers might ask, "So what? Why does it matter
if a group of radical feminists assemble in faraway China to
discuss their kooky ideas? What harm can they do?" The danger
associated with the conference is linked to the unprecedented
influence of the United States in world politics. Remember that
170 nations will be represented there. Imagine the damage that
can be done around the globe if the credibility of this wonderful
country, with all its resources and power, is used to undermine
the family, promote abortion, teach immoral behavior to
teenagers, incite anger and competition between men and women,
advocate lesbian and homosexual behavior, and vilify those with
sincere religious faith. This is Satan's trump card if I have
ever seen it.
Remember, too, that people from underdeveloped nations don't
understand that the Clinton administration does not represent the
majority of the American people on these radical positions. They
will see Madeline Albright, our representative to the United
Nations, Timothy Wirth, our assistant secretary of state, Vice
President Al Gore, and perhaps the First Lady herself leading the
parade to Beijing. What is the international community to assume
but that the most powerful and respected nation on earth has
endorsed a new understanding of human relationships. Furthermore,
they will quickly recognize that foreign aid is dependent upon
going along with the politically correct program.
Knowledgeable conservative writers are beginning to recognize the
scope of the threat at our door. One of them, Dale O'Leary, has
studied gender feminist ideology extensively. She wrote the
following:
To the average person the Gender Feminist agenda
appears as pure nonsense. How could anyone sincerely
believe that society could do away with family, impose
50/50 quotas on all activities, eliminate motherhood,
and institute polymorphous perversity? Five years ago
people laughed at the suggestion, but those who have
been exposed to the influence of the Gender Feminist
agenda aren't laughing anymore.
Many mothers, who sent their lovely daughters off to
college to prepare for careers, are weeping, because
their daughters have come home with lesbian lovers. An
April 26, 1995, article entitled 'Dating Game Today
Breaks Traditional Gender Roles,' which appeared in the
Wall Street Journal reported on a growing number of
young women coming out of U.S. universities where they
have been indoctrinated in women's studies programs who
are engaging in sexual relations with women and men.
Included is a report on Ms. Anji Dickson who can't
decide whether to marry her boyfriend or grow old with
a woman.
...in Ms. Dickson's generation young women openly enter
into intimate relationships with both genders that are
more than just experiments. They resist being described
as straight or gay[--]or even bisexual, which some
think suggests promiscuity and one-night stands.
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: @1:102/890
|Date: 20 Feb 96 15:12:10
EID:4753 20547980
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3129e500
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 178ca217
16 Feb 96 12:45, Fredric Rice wrote to All:
>> following information about your system (and what ever else you
>> wish to include, to inform me so that I know before I go forwarding
>> the information on the my friend.):
FR> Sure thing! Any help I can offer, that's what I'm here for.
>> In Christ,
FR> Woops! I'm sorry. I don't provide personal information to Christians
FR> due to the hatred, bigotry, intolerance and zealotry that their cult
FR> historically stands for and what it does to inflict misery upon
FR> humanity in contemporary times.
FR> Pleae don't take offense.
Jesse'd be *so* proud of you, Fred. Michael Hardy is probably spinning in
his grave right now.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Ward
|Sub: Are you a LACKEY?
|Date: 20 Feb 96 15:08:54
EID:e2fa 20547900
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3129e433
REPLY: 1:388/14.0 312716da
18 Feb 96 06:08, Don Ward wrote to Dan Ceppa:
DC>> It must be spring planting time. Looks like you are back to
DC>> provide the fertilizer for the fields. Good thing too, as
DC>> Staal has taken a powder. We can use your effluence.
DW> Look little Styx "lackey" I don't asssociate with your trival little
DW> bunch of agnostics anymore..
You don't? Why are you here then, moron? Wanna tell us again about how the
Earth was created in 404BC, Don?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 21 Feb 96 03:13:30
EID:af5f 205519a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312a8e78
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dd0
16 Feb 96 10:15, Andrew Masten wrote to Michael Hardy:
AM> any life period. Bottom line, whether they admit it or not, there
AM> matieralistic point of view is just as 'faith based' as a
AM> creationist point of view.
BZZT! Our "materialistic point of view" is based on the universe around
us. If you've got some evidence for something besides the material universe,
please present it.
Note: I did not ask for supposition. I did not ask for wild-assed guesses.
I did not ask for more of the Argument from Ignorance. I did not ask for
you to demonstrate, once again, your ignorance of what science really is,
not did I ask you to demonstrate your ignorance of the word preclude. I
asked for evidence. Got any?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 21 Feb 96 03:16:33
EID:af5f 20551a00
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312a8ed1
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dd1
16 Feb 96 10:34, Andrew Masten wrote to Preston Simpson:
PS>>> Unwarranted conclusion. Why could it not have been Allah, Odin,
PS>>> Zeus, Ahura Mazda, or any of the pantheon of entities that
PS>>> humanity has or does worship?
DW>> I see you failed to answer his question. Why must this designer
DW>> you speak of be Jehovah?
AM>> If you don't believe we are created, what difference does it
AM>> make? If you do, you can compare religions for yourself.
PS>> Are you going to answer the question, Andrew, or dodge again?
AM> You should know by now that the pundits of this echo don't dictate
AM> to me what I will or won't answer. The response I gave is
AM> sufficient.
I am still waiting for you to make the connection between this Creator you
speak of and Jehovah. In fact, I am coming to the conclusion that you are
unable to make such a connection, and are simply too much of a chickenshit
to admit it.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Purple Unicorn Dingleberries
|Date: 21 Feb 96 03:32:10
EID:eea4 20551c00
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312a9254
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 31295009
19 Feb 96 21:00, Robert Jackson wrote to Masochistic Maiden:
MM>> Hi, I'm new here and trying to find a place to fit in. I browse
MM>> the echo for subjects of interest, then find that the post has
MM>> absolutely noting to do with the subject line. Could it be that
MM>> hard to shift the subject header when the conversation drifts? *
MM>> SPITFIRE v3.51 Le
RJ> Sure, we can give it a try.
You know, of course, that MM is going to completely miss the point...
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 21 Feb 96 03:18:20
EID:23a4 20551a40
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312a8f2d
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dd3
17 Feb 96 08:41, Andrew Masten wrote to Kevin D. Mckenzie:
KDM>> Ye gods, philosophy.
AM> Philosophy, is more rational basis for belief then science, because
AM> science can't get off the runway without philisophical
AM> presuppositions.
And which philosophical presumptions would those be, Andrew? Do you even
know, or are you plagiarizing your betters again?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 21 Feb 96 03:20:17
EID:3303 20551a80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312a8fae
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dd4
17 Feb 96 08:45, Andrew Masten wrote to Kevin D. Mckenzie:
AM>> Its consistent throughout the bible. Without the shedding of
AM>> blood there is no forgiveness for sins.
KDM>> Why? He's omnipotent (yes, it's a big word. Look it up. No,
KDM>> not in the Sesame Street Dictionary, get a real one). Why must
KDM>> blood be shed? Or is your god no god?
AM> What justice would there be with God if He forgave sin without
a
AM> price.
Whatever justice he decided there would be. He is omnipotent, right?
AM> What would you think of a magistrate who just let criminals
AM> go on a whimsy?
Did you choose to be born as a sinner, dipshit?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 21 Feb 96 20:08:29
EID:63af 2055a100
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312bc210
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, David Worrell mumbled "A LITTLE HELP FROM SP"
DW>> See what happens when you don't like the Beatles?
PS> Yes, one retains one's sense of taste.
DW> Doesn't help you much when you have no teeth and must eat baby-food,
DW> though, does it? :)
Not when one brushes and flosses as much as I do.
... I am not a trained killer. I LEAD trained killers.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Home page (you care, I know you do).
|Date: 21 Feb 96 20:08:29
EID:3e1d 2055a100
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312bc211
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, David Worrell mumbled "Home page (you care,
I know you do)."
DW>> Great. My whole *page* is fucked, now. The background image (a
PS> I hadn't n