God Damned Fundies!
|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 20 Feb 96 23:22:23
EID:65ac 2054bac0
MSGID: 1:157/200 560211c3
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MH> JP> Would you believe there are people
MH> JP> so dumb they think God is dead.
MH> JP> In spite of evidence.
MH>
MH> KDM> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence?
MH>What?
MH> Why "non-biblical?" Whether you want to admit it or not, the gospels
MH> and letters of Paul *are* historical documents from the time. The
MH>fact that they were written by believers in the cause would not
MH> disqualify them as historical source documents if they were about
MH>any other person or subject. They would simply need to be read with
MH>the author's bias in mind.
Mike, I don't discount them as historical documents. AFAIK, Jesus
existed. He was a good man, but not a god.
MH> So why apply this unfairly strict standard in this case?
Because, if I remember his post correctly, he wasn't making a historical
claim.
... I am NOT lazy... I'm doing research on inertia!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 20 Feb 96 23:23:24
EID:5abc 2054bae0
MSGID: 1:157/200 560211d4
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JOHN PREWETT spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JP>KD> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
JP>JP> Some admit Jesus is alive, and see that the so-called "vicar" in
JP>JP> Rome is a phoney, but are so dumb they don't think it matters. In
JP>JP> spite of evidence.
JP>KD> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence? What?
JP>
JP> The following is a correlation of some of the Revelations
JP> descriptions, and the unique fulfillment found in known facts
JP> regarding the Vatican.
Your reading comprehension is as good as ever, Prewett.
... We're lost, but we're making good time . . .
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 20 Feb 96 23:23:25
EID:fd9a 2054bae0
MSGID: 1:157/200 560211e5
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM>-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> AM> None of the physical type, but a philisophical argument.
AM>
AM> KDM> Ye gods, philosophy.
AM>
AM> Philosophy, is more rational basis for belief then science,
AM> because science can't get off the runway without philisophical
AM> presuppositions.
Perhaps, but at least science can be applied to reality. Pure
philosophy can not.
... I just tested out my pitbull. Ever heard a mime scream?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 20 Feb 96 23:25:26
EID:b2ab 2054bb20
MSGID: 1:157/200 560211f6
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM> AM> Its consistent throughout the bible. Without the shedding of
AM> AM> blood there is no forgiveness for sins.
AM>
AM> KDM> Why? He's omnipotent (yes, it's a big word. Look it up. No,
AM> KDM> not in the Sesame Street Dictionary, get a real one). Why must
AM> KDM> blood be shed? Or is your god no god?
AM>
AM> What justice would there be with God if He forgave sin without a
AM> What price. would you think of a magistrate who just let
AM> criminals go on a whimsy?
I'd think he might be worthy of worship. Look, if I can forgive others,
why can't he? I don't require people to go kill someone, I just forgive
them, assuming they are truly repentant.
... Who exactly is All, and why does he get so much mail?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Eric Hendrix
|To: Ross Catto
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 20 Feb 96 07:16:39
EID:d531 20543a00
MSGID: 1:289/80 312C342D
RC> wants.By taking any kind of loan out, a Christian is disobeying a
RC> directcommand from god not to.
I do have one loan out. I have a loan out for a car, but no credit cards,
no other loans, straight cash. I agree that we should not take out loans,
but it couldn't be helped. My wife had wrecked the car we had paid cash
for, shortly after we bought it. We had a little saved up for our next car,
but not enough to purchase another one. So, we were forced to go get a loan,
or walk. I never have been exactly sure about whether that was right or
wrong, since my family was in need.
You said it seems we agree on a lot of things. I have an open mind, and
try to look at things from any side I can, as long as that side is presented
in a calm fashion. I like to debate, but not argue. Arguments often get
ugly, whereas at the end of a debate, both parties should be able to walk
away knowing a little about the other one, without any ill feelings.
Regards,
Eric...
* SPITFIRE v3.51
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|From: Eric Hendrix
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 20 Feb 96 07:20:55
EID:ce73 20543a80
MSGID: 1:289/80 312C342E
DW> "Most" of his teachings are in the NT? When did He do any teaching in
DW> the Old Testament?
I stand corrected.
DW> Did the command say "owe no man anything, except for necessities"?
Well, I put this in the reply to Ross, but I'll explain it to you too. We
paid cash for our first car, and while we were driving it, we were saving
up for the second. Well, my wife had an accident and totalled the car, therfore
we had no choice but to get a car, or walk. I don't know if it was the right
decision, but I was backed up against a hard wall. My family needed transportation,
and with us living in a rural area, there is no public transportation. Other
than that, I have no loans, credit cards, etc...
Eric...
* SPITFIRE v3.51
--- Alexi/Mail 2.00 (#10000)
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|From: Eric Hendrix
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 20 Feb 96 07:26:00
EID:ebcc 20543b40
MSGID: 1:289/80 312C342F
FR> My guess is you haven't learned any world history. The Christanic
FR> death cult is the single worse deadly tyranny ever created by men.
FR> Christanics have murdered more people than any other cult or any
FR> other ideology or natural disaster save epidemic.
Ok, let me re-phrase. *I* don't go out and kill people, because it is against
my belief. I can't change what other people have done, nor will I be held
accountable for it.
Eric...
* SPITFIRE v3.51
--- Alexi/Mail 2.00 (#10000)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:34:33
EID:1e90 20559440
MSGID: 1:207/212 7facb962
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892A0E25
On (20 Feb 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Dawn Kleuser...
DK> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like
DC> Isn't it a liitle early? Pre-season practice hasn't even started
DC> yet.
Hey - they got a good trade or two [though they should have gone with
both guns after Benis or a *real* good lefthander] and should be able to
work on the gains they made last year. They crumbled. Why? Probably
because of all the rookies and their reliance on the fantastic batting
coach, who had a family emergency and wasn't with them quite as much.
:)
[Hey - how did my hubby take over the computer!]
... "One for the vaults!" -- Frank N. Furter
--- PPoint 1.92
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 21 Feb 96 18:09:25
EID:dcd9 20559120
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312b5ff6
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 312aa94a
21 Feb 96 00:10, Robert Jackson wrote to Norbert Sykes:
NS>> ... Uglk u bagronk sha pushdug Asmodeus-glob b#bhosh skai.
RJ> Two questions: What language? What's the translation? :)
It looks like Stupid to me... Maybe Azzie'll understand it better than he
does sarcasm.
---
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:23:00
EID:e51b 205692e0
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014ac34
In a message dated 02-19-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> >> KM>>> Where's your evidence that a God who can ANYTHING doesn't e
>
> EF> EF>You are trying to shift the burden of proof, Kenneth. If the
exis
> EF> God was obvious then there would be no need to stress faith. It i
> EF> claim: "a God who can do ANYTHING exists". Not being able to disp
> EF> _claim_ is no more evidence it is true than not being able to dis
> EF> existence of blue monkeys on Pluto.
>
KM> That's one of the points I've been trying to make.
By "point" do you mean the one I made about you trying to shift the burden
of proof?
Or what?
KM> I might not be [sic] prove to you that God
KM> exist [sic] (because you don't except the
KM> Bible as evidence)
Gosh, you don't waste much time in putting words in my mouth, do you? Who
said I didn't accept the Bible as evidence for your god? Certainly it is
evidence. Unfortunately, though, it is woefully insufficient and fatally
flawed evidence. You yourself acknowledge this, at least in part, when
you state that one must first believe in the Bible in order to believe in
your god. You obviously have little confidence in your "evidence" if you
assume it's necessary to "believe" in the Bible even before you begin
reading it.
Thus, you are essentially saying I must have "faith" in the evidence [the
Bible]. The problem with this is, if it were really evidence you wouldn't
need to have faith in it!
> but it cannot be proven to me that he does not exist.
Duh! Nor could it be proven to you that Santa Claus doesn't exist - if you
choose not to be persuaded.
But a closed & dogmatic mind is nothing to be proud of, Ken.
KM> If it cannot be proven to me that he does not
KM> exist, I have no reason to stop believing in
KM> him,
Sure! Refuse to look at any knowledge that is contrary to your chosen
dogma and you can claim to have no reason to change it.
KM> and yes, I understand that you, without
KM> evidence, have no reason to start believing
KM> in him.
Gee, I guess I'm not spitting my words out fast enough for you?
So what do I say next?
KM> I also believe that unless you
KM> believe the Bible, that you cannot believe at
KM> all,
I agree. Without a conscious desire to believe beforehand, the Bible is
not persuasive at all. In fact I consider the Bible to be the best
evidence against God I have yet seen. I kid you not.
KM> because belief in God starts with the
KM> scriptures.
This is circular. You say I must believe in the Bible to start believing
in "him". But the Bible is supposed to be the word of your god. So
believing in the [the word of "god"] IS the same _as_ believing in "God."
Ergo it is circular, akin to saying: "To believe in God you must first
believe in God."
KM>Once you start believing the
KM> scriptures,
::sigh:: You proclaim your vast mental superiority to us all here, yet you
keep coming up with statements like this! (Pretty ironic, no?) How could
anyone possibly believe in "the scriptures" and not believe in the alleged
"author" at the same time?
The first thing the Bible says is "In the beginning God ..."
If you believe that passage you *must* also believe in God at the same
time! Duh.
Anyway, notice how you seem to stress that one must work at believing.
According to you, one must approach this with the desire to believe.
Why?
Why should I attempt to convince myself of something instead of deciding
based on the weight of the evidence?
Science doesn't require one have faith [belief] in the evidence for their
scientific theories. Just the opposite. Science puts the evidence on the
table and says: "Ok guys, kick the living shit out of it." And other
scientists do just that. Why? Because they know that when the smoke clears
if the evidence is still standing, they have something pretty substantial.
And another thing.
Can you point to any of the main characters in the Bible who had to do
what you claim is now necessary for belief in your god?
When your god toyed with Job, allowed his life to be destroyed to test his
"faith," NEVER was it an issue of Job not believing God _EXISTED_. It was
whether he would continue to _obey_ his God or not. Your god made himself
obvious to one and all.
So why do you ask more faith of me then God did of Job?
KM> then you might find other
KM> evidence as well, or be given the sign that
KM> some here have been looking for.
Why does your god now expect this when he expected it of no one (that I
know of) in the Bible? Your god made himself manifest. How come your god
asks more faith of me then he did of Paul?
KM> But then,
KM> you'all don't believe in dreams and visions
KM> either, or do you?
I can probably save you some time and effort here. Instead of querying me
about my belief/disbelief in a laundry list of phenomena I'll just tell
you how I approach such claims.
In general I assume that things do not exist unless I have evidence that
they do.
You may recognize this method, since you no doubt use it as well for most
other aspects of your life (I mean you probably don't believe in tooth
fairies, right?)
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Genealogies never consider the handsome neighbor
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Moral Relatives
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:23:00
EID:5632 205692e0
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014ac40
KM>> So you refuse him because he protected his people as he promised?
You
KM>> refuse him because he wiped out those that would not worship him,
and
KM>> those that worshipped other gods instead? I don't know what you see,
KM>> but all I see is God doing what he had to do.
What Bible are you using anyway: the New Revised Disney version? You
crack me up, Ken. You really do! Don't you realize how amusing this
appears: there is no act too vile or too cruel your god can do that you
won't rationalize it one way or another.
When he slaughters innocents of other tribes he is _protecting_ "his
people" ("his people"?? Gee, who does everyone else belong to I wonder?).
What a wonderful, loving god to do that, right?
Then when he kicks ass on "his people", again cruelly punishing innocents
for the sins of the guilty, you do a 180 and tell us that's just your
wonderful, loving god "correcting" his little children. Yes what a
wonderful, loving god.
Here is a question for you I'm sure you will never give me a straight
answer to: What deed would be so terrible for your god to perform that it
would outrage even a radical moral relativist such as yourself?
Is there ANYTHING that would give you pause, make you stop and say,
"hmmmm, wait a minute, that seems pretty uncalled for"?
I'll give odds, to anyone stupid enough to take them, that there is
nothing - NO THING too despicable or outrageous your god can do that your
elastic morality can't handle. How about when he sells "his people" (yes,
_sells_) into slavery? Tough love, huh Ken?
Well I won't dwell on this right now. I'll let you make excuses for his
inexcusable behavior toward "his people" some other time. Right now I want
to go over your remarkable Biblical revisionism and rhetorical sophistry.
KM>> So you refuse him because he protected his people as he promised?
I guess it would be silly to expect someone who can rationalize any
immoral act of his god, to abide by his own religious precepts - like not
bearing false witness. That _is_ what you do here, Ken.
KM>>You refuse him because he wiped out those that would not worship
KM>> him, and those that worshipped other gods instead?
I love it! From the same fingers and keyboard that waxes poetic about the
"free will" that God so generously allows. I guess this is God's Catch-22
brand:
"Sure I'll allow free will. But choose wrong and I'll kill you on the
spot!" Hahahahahaha!!
To answer your question: you're goddamn right I would reject such a petty,
vindictive, prick of a god who would do something like that. I have moral
standards, Ken, unlike, apparently, you. You see, I am a humanist. My
morals don't have loop-holes you could drive a golden chariot through,
unlike some people around here I could mention.
KM>> I don't know what you see, but all I see is God doing what he had to
do.
Hey, don't let such glaring inconsistencies in your arguments get you
down. ( like claiming that "God" can do "anything," while you here excuse
your gods actions by saying he "had" to do these things.
Inconsistencies never seem to bother your god.
PS: Ken, if you are going to rely on the Bible as your "evidence" perhaps
you ought to begin reading it? Just a thought.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Jesus is coming...quick look busy!
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Relative Stupidity
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:23:00
EID:1683 205692e0
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014ac49
KM> Always have, so why do those in here keep
KM> asking us (Christians) for proof or evidence
KM> of God? Asking us to provide evidence of a
KM> being that is more powerful than us, who can
KM> do absolutely anything, over whom we have no
KM> power over at all, is just as stupid.
Oh the double standards are flying fast today! You make statements about
this god of yours, exactly as though they were facts ( "a being that is
more powerful than us, who can do absolutely anything, over whom we have
no power over" - being one minor example) and when asked to back up your
statements with the kind of evidence that would justify making them, you
characterize the request as "stupid?"
Perhaps you meant that requesting evidence from *you* for whatever you say
is stupid. If so, you might have a point. But if you meant it is stupid
to
expect there to _be_ any evidence, then I suggest you reflect on the
intelligence of making the kind of categorical assertions you have,
knowing full well they cannot be supported with anything other than
"because I say so."
So who is stupid: the one making the claim he can't support or the one
asking for evidence of that claim?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: The Might Stuff
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:23:00
EID:8853 205692e0
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014ac53
KM>> God can forgive, and he has told us how to get that forgiveness.
Unless, of course, he decides not to do so. In which case I am sure you
will have a plausible, ad hoc excuse ready
It's
KM>> funny there are many here that belittle God because he said to man
KM>> that man should not kill, but God himself (who has the right)
No, not the "right." The _Might_. A difference of one letter makes all the
difference in the world. The only way God could have the "right' to kill
me is if he proclaimed himself to have the right, which puts us right back
to *might*.
had to
KM>> kill and it's such a big deal because he did not (not my opinion)
KM>> follow the laws that he gave man.
Well it is certainly not a big deal to you, is it Ken! And _do_ continue
to stay far away from the actual words of the Bible and I am sure it will
continue to not be your opinion.
Anyway, Ken, I have to tell you that your editorializing in your series
of
rationalizations for god's psychopathic behavior are starting to push the
envelope. What do I mean? This, for one: "..God himself had to kill ..."
Excuse me? He *HAD* to kill? This _is_ the same guy you claim can do
anything, right? Or is he only omnipotent when he wants to be a big shot?
When it comes time to dish out the responsibility he's back to "hey, I
just work here" ?
Is that what you are saying Ken? Just because you believe your god can
_do_ anything doesn't give you license to *SAY* anything. Ok?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: NOT a Ringer, I swear!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:23:00
EID:234a 205692e0
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014ac5b
KM>> God said that if you sin you must
KM>> die, and you condemn him for doing what he said.
No Ken. Let's just stick with the innocent victims of your god. There are
plenty and we never even have to leave the Bible.
Asside to Ken: When you alter your opponent's argument to his detriment
and pretend it is your opponent's true position - like you do here:
"...you condemn him for doing what he said..."
...it is considered a breech of ethics(1). Look up the word if necessary.
Anyway, try to avoid this in the future, ok Bud? Thanks!
(Now back to the show which is already in progress ....)
... blue goose-livers!!!
Anyway, my point is this, Ken: your god is condemned around here for his
vicious, blood thirsty behavior toward life on this planet(2) - as
chronicled in your Bible, NOT "...for doing what he said."
I was intending to use this discussion of your god's behavior as a
springboard to my main premise, which is: That Christian fundamentalism,
at its core, teaches radical moral relativism.
But you Ken, bless your heart, have saved me much ground work. I couldn't
have hoped for a better example of what I intended to prove.
I just hope people won't think you are my ringer.
(1) References upon request.
(2) Remember Ken: I am not saying your god exists, I am merely accepting
the premise for the sake of discussion. Try not to let it confuse you, ok
Bud?
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Bad Spellers of the world untie
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Careers in Spokesmodeling
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:23:00
EID:a174 205692e0
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014ac64
KM> God said I will
KM> sacrifice my Son so that you do not have
KM> die.
KM>I have no idea why there
KM> must be the shedding of blood for sin, I'm
KM> not God I am not qualified
KM> to tell you why God made it that way.
Geeze, Ken, why the change of heart?
KM> All I can say is that that is
KM> the way it is, that is what God said has to
KM> be done, so that is the
KM> way that it must be.
Phew. Boy, you had me scared there for a minute! I was afraid you were
going to give up speaking for God altogether!
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Has that file been saved? No, but we're praying for it.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: He's Jealous! He's Crazy!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:23:00
EID:9f24 205692e0
MSGID: 1:215/130 0014ac6b
KM> Maybe you consider jealously a character
KM> flaw, I do not. I believe
KM> that it is a natural feeling that goes right
KM> along with love.
Here we are talking about a god that, by his own account, acts in a manner
any sane person would call insane: a petulant, genocidal psychopath. And
Ken, God love 'em, is concerned we may think his god has a "character
flaw."
Sorry folks. This one is beyond my ability to satirize. Any takers?
Jealously is not necessarily a character flaw, Ken, but it is a flaw
certainly. Jealously is a form of unhappiness. A perfect being cannot have
a lack (cannot lack happiness) - by definition.
Get a Bible Ken. You'll discover that jealously is the least of your god's
problems.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
I don't mind straight people as long as they act gay.
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|From: Larry Jansen
|To: All
|Sub: End Times!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:01:00
EID:530e 20566820
PID: RA 2.02 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56cb0694
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
I hope you realize that the international bankers are behind us being
in Bosnia. Iraq and Iran are next on their agenda. "Too bad" that
our "children" will have to die, so that they can make more money, and
enslave the world.
All hail! Satan and his New World Order are upon us -- ez. 38, 39, 40;
rv. 20: 7-15.
---
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: LES WILCOX
|Sub: Who cares about a fundy?
|Date: 22 Feb 96 08:11:18
EID:bf9c 20564160
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 11804307
REPLY: 1:147/48 37e6fb04
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
LW> I'm not attending church right now, and when I did attend I was
LW> not tithing
You'll be in the Lake of Fire for sure, now. Burn brightly little fundy.
We want to see your flesh glow for miles. Your pet hamster is down there
now, pleading your case.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: All
|Sub: Conference Guidelines
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:26:00
EID:0724 20566340
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 1a8c65a7
Re: HOLYSMOKE Echo Guidelines
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Basic Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed in this echo are those of the writers
identified in the header of each message. No other responsibility
is expressed or implied for the content of the messages in this echo.
Rules to Follow:
[1] Please refrain from attempting to force your ideas on others,
or to be deliberately disruptive in the echo.
Those who engage in such activity may find their feed to this
echo terminated.
[2] As is customary in echomail, private messages are not allowed.
[3] If you wish to post messages on this echo please try to keep
your comments and ideas on a rational level. This will help
to facilitate an open and free flowing dialogue.
Please refrain from entering statements like:
"I know I'm right and everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid!"
or
"You're gonna burn in hell if you don't accept god."
Such messages only serve to irritate others, and do little
more than to raise the noise level of the echo.
[4] Attempt to quote only relevant text, in order to make your
messages more legible, and to lessen the burden on those
who pay to move each byte posted in this conference.
[5] Deliberate censorship of wording contained within a quote
attributed to another in this echo is expressly forbidden.
Echo Purpose: (To let you hear what you just said) ;-)
This echo provides an open forum where one can argue for or against
religion(s). Both religious and anti-religious views are allowed.
Atheists, agnostics, religious right-wingers, bible babblers,
bible bashers, preachers of doom, echovangelists, conservatives,
liberals and those with (hopefully curable) crucifixation are welcome
in HOLYSMOKE. (As long as they abide by the guidelines above!)
Enjoy and happy debating!
Styx Allum, Moderator (1:152/20)
P.O. Box 5150
Eugene, OR 97405-0150
---
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:54:01
EID:6376 205666c0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 1a8c65a8
>> You've never known what it's like to look at that glass ceiling.
>>
>SA> I've been on the opposite end of reverse discrimination before.
>SA> I was turned down for a job at a pet store because I was a man.
> And the woman they hired probably would be paid only $.65 to every
> dollar they would have had to pay you.
Busted. The wage was published. Applicants could either accept
it, or not apply. Now you can see why I dislike the prejudicial
suppositions that so many people make. They fail to see that by
promoting an attitude of being persecuted, they bring upon
themselves the very act that they expected.
> Some employers embrace affirmative action just for that reason.
SOME. Not all. I embrace positive attitude, ambition, and aptitude.
Gender would not be among my criteria for considering employment.
However, if someone were to come in with an attitude of mysogyny
or expectations thereof, they would quickly fall to the bottom of
my list of preferred applicants. The same would be true for anyone
who exhibited an inclination to accuse, protest, or complain.
> For some (and I'm NOT saying all)
Thanks for qualifying the statement. It's refreshing.
> it is easier to tell you that they 'have' to hire someone else
> than to tell you they don't want to pay you properly.
>SA> I don't deny that creeps such as you describe exist. I merely
>SA> take issue with the implication that "the majority of" men
>SA> are supposedly like that.
> The majority of white, influential males ARE like that, Styx.
Such generalizations should not be stated as fact unless one is
prepared to support their argument. I don't believe your statement
to be true; therefor, I request the same of you that I do of
Christians who make claims based upon blind faith.
I'm certain that statistics regarding the above can be found to
support either pro or con arguments for the above. It's largely
a matter of which sources one chooses to believe.
Reality may differ from both opinions.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:20:54
EID:1bfa 20567a80
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c8a82
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892946BF
20 Feb 96 10:23, Michael Hardy wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> or not. If you tell me "Thou shalt not steal" while using
DW>> unregistered software, however, I'm going to abuse the hell out
DW>> of you.
MH> FOUR admissions that atheists have no morals. This is outstanding!
Get your goddamned head out of your ass, Hardly. We simply don't expect
others to blindly follow our moral code.
Besides, as has been pointed out to you, that was a tagline.
... This copy of Gedit has been unregistered for 6.02x10^23 days.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: CENSUS
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:30:43
EID:b318 20567bc0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c8ce2
REPLY: 1:272/99 00189111
19 Feb 96 20:28, Brian Kolacy wrote to Michael Hardy:
MH>> I never said the "star" would be visible to everyone. I'm talking
MH>> about a flashlight and Dan's talking about a searchlight. What I'm
MH>> saying is that God might have created a beacon just for the Magi,
MH>> not a new star in the sky for all the world to see.
BK> Hmmm...thats novel.
Jehovah: "Ok, Gabriel, I want you to make a star and place it directly over
my son's birthplace."
Gabriel: "Right, boss - I'll get on it right away"
Jehovah: "Hold on there, Gabe. This has to be a special star."
Gabriel: "Special, boss? How so?"
Jehovah: "I only want the magi to see it. You see, 2000 years from now there's
going to be a bunch of people that don't believe in me. I want to send them
to hell, so I need to give them reasons to *not* believe the Bible."
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: children
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:14:16
EID:27c2 205679c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c88b4
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca13
19 Feb 96 16:28, John Prewett wrote to David Worrell:
JP>> Your retort will only impress your fellow dolts.
DW>> And your retort is going to impress anybody besides yourself? Lose
DW>> that whacked-out JFK/Kissinger fantasy of yours, and I might start
DW>> caring about your opinion.
JP> No you wouldn't. You, and many HolySmoke heathes/atheists think
JP> people are mentally defective just because they believe in GOD.
Bullshit, looney. I know several Christians personally that I have a good
deal of respect for. In this echo alone, there's Al and Lynda.
DW>> Until then, you're just a friggin' loon that ought
DW>> to be locked in a rubber room for his own good.
The above statement stand, dipshit.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:19:22
EID:ac27 20567a60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c89ae
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 312a5ecd
20 Feb 96 00:32, Lynda Bustilloz wrote to David Worrell:
KM>> That's a remarkably stupid attitude, IMO. If/when I get married,
KM>> I want to marry a friend, an equal, not a puppet.
DW>> There's a lot to be said for puppets, though.
LB> I completely agree, Mr. Helpful Dave Happy-Puppet!
Who let you out of the kitchen? And where the hell did you get those shoes?!
:)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Don Ward
|Sub: CPu parts
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:40:02
EID:51a3 20567500
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c8088
REPLY: 1:388/14.0 312716d9
18 Feb 96 06:08, Don Ward wrote to David Worrell:
DW> While listening in I heard
DW> David Worrell speaking about CPu partsDW>12 Feb 96 06:16, Don Ward
DW> wrote to :
DW>> I have a Intel 386dx 25MHZ motherboard with math co-proccesser.
DW>> I" take $30.00 dollars for it...
DW>>
DW>> Not only do you steal shareware, you apparently also try to rob
DW>> people.
DW> Is it that you cannot afford it?
BZZT! A 386/25 isn't *worth* thirty dollars, pimple.
Thou shalt not steal, remember?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:59:46
EID:af5f 20567f60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c9310
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dd7
17 Feb 96 11:25, Andrew Masten wrote to David Worrell:
AM> Then I must be standing head and shoulders above my detractors who
AM> rarely if ever rely on evidence for thier myoptic views.
I see you're confused, Andy - that really doesn't surprise me. You have
yet to provide anything beyond supposition and guesses. Try again.
AM>> Do you call citing facts from a
AM>> reference source plagerizing?
DW>> It is plagiarizing when you don't give the source.
AM> Pla-gar-rize To steal and use (the ideas or writings of another)
as
AM> one's own. -The American Heritage Dictionary-
Exactly. You did not quote the source with the information. You plagiarized.
You're going to hell, son.
AM> Of course you have yet to cite a single source in rebuffing the
AM> evidence I presented.
I am not required to cite sources simply to show you that you don't understand
what you claim to be evidence, dipshit.
DW>> I'm still waiting for you to tell me just how science
DW>> precludes God.
AM> And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what your credentials are,
Irrelevant.
AM> what degree's you have and what was your master thesis??
Also irrelevant. What does my educational status have to do with the above
question? Answer it.
AM> As
AM> for your question that was asked and answered.
No, you made up a question, similar to mine, and answered it. Try again.
AM> its poking holes in my evidence. In the words of a famous scientist
AM> aboard the U.S.S. Enterprize, " I find that highly illogical."
^12
1. That's Enterprise
2. "Spock" is not a scientist - he's a character on a TV show.
I now see why you have such a poor understanding of what science is all
about - yet get your information from Star Trek.
ML>> And, now, how can one evaluate the pros and cons of purely
ML>> mental constructs?
AM> How indeed!
You seem to be trying valiantly to do it with your mental construct of a
deity.
DW>> nitrogen on Jupiter, a gaseous planet. Yet you claim that Jupiter
DW>> has no carbon and nitrogen,
AM> Like the Sun and primeval nebula, Jupiter is primarily composed
AM> of hydrogen and helium. Jupiters atmosphere also contains
AM> TRACE amounts of water, ammonia, methane and other organic
AM> (carbon) compounds.
AM> Source Groliers Encyclopedia.
Right. Yet you claimed that Jupiter had no carbon and nitrogen. Regardless,
Jupiter is a *big* planet, with a diameter of 88,700 miles at the equator.
"Trace" amounts of carbon, for Jupiter, would be a mass of carbon equivalent
to (or greater than) the Earth's mass. That's a lot of carbon, dipshit.
Do try to understand these things next time, before embarassing yourself
again, ok?
AM> Now whats the source you have for believing that there's plenty
AM> of
AM> carbon and nitrogen on Jupitor?
The very encyclopedia entry you just quoted. I'm quite sure you'll fail
to udnerstand it, though.
AM> And what did you say were your
AM> credentials for evaluating scientific data.
Consider that you have yet to produce any scientific data, I need no credentials.
DW>>> I see you failed to answer his question. Why must this designer
DW>>> you speak of be Jehovah?
AM>> If you don't believe we are created, what difference does it
AM>> make? If you do, you can compare religions for yourself.
Why don't you answer the question instead of doing the fundy shuffle? Show
the connection between this Designer you speak of and Jehovah.
Could it be that you are unable to do so, and simply don't have the balls
to admit it?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evolungelicals
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:23:51
EID:1618 20567ae0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c8aeb
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 312a40e6
18 Feb 96 09:41, Andrew Masten wrote to David Worrell:
HP>>> scientists (winos like Hugh Ross excepted). Science simply does
HP>>> not _include_ untestable gods.
AM>> You've answered your own question.
DW>> Why are you xtians so goddamned bipolar? Just because a thing
DW>> does not include X does not mean it *precludes* X. Are you sure
DW>> you know what preclude *means*? Now answer the question: How does
DW>> science preclude God?
AM> Because it doesn't employ any hypothesis that include a creator.
The internal combustion engine doesn't employ any hypothesis that include
nuclear fusion, either. Does this mean that the internal combustion engine
precludes nuclear fusion?
Try again, moron.
How does science preclude God?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:18:16
EID:0e41 20567a40
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c8977
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca20
20 Feb 96 14:55, John Prewett wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> 16 Feb 96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael Hardy:
KW>> much self respect to vote for any of the republicans. Hell,
KW>> the last time I voted for a repulican't was when Ford ran.
DW>> "Middle aged mommy type" my ass.
DW>> You're ancient. :P
JP> You're an obnoxious kid.
You're a fucking lunatic.
BTW, I talked to JFL yesterday, and he tells me he's getting out of the
Anti-Christ business.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:59:23
EID:be6a 20567760
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c87fc
REPLY: 1:271/460 31284e99
19 Feb 96 04:53, Kenneth Mcabee wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Hector's Law just lopped your head off, li'l fundie.
KM> Nope, still attached,
That's what they all say.
KM> btw, what's a fundie, can't seem to find that
KM> word in my dictionary.
Do you try to look stupid, Ken? Is Deoxyribonucelic Acid in your dictionary?
Do you doubt that it exists?
DW>> I see you're unable to come up with any substantive flaws in my
DW>> analogy, so you must resort to silly attempts at wisecracks.
KM> You can call me an evel unbeliever all you want. You produce
KM> fairy-tales, I'll produce wisecracks about it.
Then stop whining when we make wisecracks about your fairy tales, fundy.
Besides, I have yet to see a real wisecrack from you. I've seen several
abortive attempts, though.
KM> You know that there is
KM> no tooth-fairy, you know the tooth-fairy never claimed to be
KM> divine.
Just as, deep down inside, you know there is no God. You're just afraid
to admit it.
KM> You want to play a game and say she's real? That's your problem,
KM> since
KM> you don't want to discuss religion but rather fairy-tales,
Religions *are* fairy tales, fundy.
KM> why don't
KM> you find an echo that discusses them.
I'm in one right now.
DW>> I see a claim. Unfortunately, once again I see no evidence. Got
DW>> any?
KM> Sure, lot's of it, got a Bible?
Yeah, but some of the pages are missing. I ran out of toilet paper last
week. Regardless, the Bible doesn't qualify as evidence for God any more
than the Illiad qualifies as evidence for Zeus.
DW>> Pascal's Wager *again*, li'l fundie. I had hoped your two lonely
DW>> neurons would have come up with something a little more sound by
DW>> now.
KM> Pascal's Wager over and over and over again. You can call it any kind
KM> of wager you want, but tell me, if I'm wrong about the Bible, what do
KM> I lose? Nothing, zip, danada, not a thing, I won't even know about it.
Bullshit. You assume that Jehovah God is the only possible God. If Zeus
is really the creator, he's going to be quite pissed that you spent your
life worshipping that Jehovah pretender. If the toothfairy is the Creator,
she's going to be pissed that you spent your life worshipping Jehovah. If
Kali is the creator, you're in trouble, too. Likewise with Odin, Jupiter,
Cronos, and all the other possible Gods out there.
DW>> You *know* no such thing. If you did know it, you'd be able to
DW>> offer some real evidence to back the claim up.
KM> Why bother to ask someone that believes the Bible to give you evidence
KM> other than the Bible? Where's the logic?
It certainly isn't in the Bible, or anywhere in your vicinity.
DW>> RIght after God accounts to me for his murdering and rampant
DW>> destruction.
KM> God does NOT have to account to you for anything,
Oh yes he does.
KM> you are not greater
KM> than God.
On the contrary, I am greater than God. I don't go around slaughtering women
and children for the hell of it.
KM> And BTW you WILL account to him for your disbelief.
As I said, right after he accounts to me for all the murders he has committed
and led others to commit.
DW>> Until such time as he chooses to do so, however, fuck God.
KM> He'll remember you said that too.
Fuck him again. And again. And again. And again.
KM> You know the way you talk about him, I really hope that you are
KM> saved, or get saved before you die, I'de hate to meet him after
KM> saying something like that about him, or to him.
We already know you're a grovellor, Ken. There's no need to provide evidence
for that.
DW>> You can keep
DW>> groveling before him, though, if you must. I realize how hard it
DW>> is to stand on your own feet when you have no backbone.
KM> Shows how little you really know about a Christian, I don't "grovel"
KM> at anyones feet including God's.
Sure, Ken, whatever you say... you must get awfully dirty down there squirming
in fear on the floor, though.
KM> and if he wants me to "grovel" I'll take up doing that too.
You already have, Ken.
KM>>> If he wanted you to go to hell,
DW>> BZZZT! Once again, you are not answering the question that was
DW>> asked of you. You claim that God might have hid the evidence for
DW>> the flood. I asked you why he would do such a thing.
KM> Like I said, if he wanted you to go to hell,
Damn, you're a dumbass.
Once again, you're not answering the question that was asked of you. Why
would God hide the evidence of the Flood?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:45:30
EID:9d66 20567da0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c8fe2
REPLY: 1:215/130 00149209
21 Feb 96 18:52, Elliott Finesse wrote to Michael Hardy:
EF> Is your rationalization flexible enough to explain why your god also
EF> says that insects walk on 4 legs,
You'll enjoy Hardly's rationalization for that one: Grasshoppers do have
4 legs... and two hoppers.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:13:28
EID:bff5 205679a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c883d
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 312aa93d
20 Feb 96 14:06, Robert Jackson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>>> speaking of that putz, do you want to bet his name used to
DW>>> be just plain old Terry Parker, until he got swept up in
DW>>> this militia craze?
TP>> Hey jerkface, did you have something you wanted to say to me; or
TP>> do you just do your cowardly snipping behind your would-be
TP>> opponents back?
RJ> "Hey jerkface"??? We go from "Give me liberty or give me
RJ> death" to "Hey jerkface" in just 220 short years...tsk.
:)
What else did you suspect from someone who supports blowing up daycare centers?
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:16:16
EID:1617 20567a00
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c8939
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca18
19 Feb 96 17:36, John Prewett wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> The idea of you calling *anybody* else irrational is ludicrous,
DW>> Terry.
JP> why ? HE doesn't claim JFK's gonna reappear.
JP> Terry's never even acted particularly religious.
Unfortunately, mainstream religions don't have a monopoly on irrationality.
Liberty-Parker can be said to follow a religion of sorts, though. That whole
militia nonsense is built on the faith (with no evidence whatsoever) that
the government is out to get us.
---
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|From: Simon Ewins
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 21 Feb 96 20:31:28
EID:bdbe 2055a3e0
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892946C1
PID: FleetStreet 1.14 #115
MSGID: 1:250/666 312b8120
CHRS: IBMPC 2
MH> This was not known to the first English translators of the Bible,
MH> including the King James translators in 1611. The older manuscripts
MH> were discovered later. More recent translations include it (because
MH> they'd be accused of covering up if they didn't) with the note that
MH> it doesn't appear in the best manuscripts.
Agreed.
MH> That being the case, Rudzinski's constant "I'll pour" diatribe is
MH> meaningless.
Only when directed at you or any other that recognizes that much of the
gospel is more the 'word of creative men' than the 'word of god'.
When directed at a mindless automaton who was told that the bible is true
word for word, cover to cover, no questions askable, and believes it...
then it is far from meaningless since it points out quite well a) the errors
in thinking that are required in order to accept the bible as 'truth' from
cover to cover and b) the hypocrisy of those who claim to accept it as such
but would not test the "I'll pour" theory with thier own faith.
Now, since you have agreed that at least one portion of the bible is of
doubtful authenticity, how do you manage to determine that the rest is 'truth'?
Which other bits are not part of "god's truth" and which are, and how do
you tell one from the other?
How meaningful is the term 'word of god'? Or is it the 'word of god except
for the bit at the end of Mark'?
If it is known to not be authentic, why is it still in the latest editions?
What 'test' do you apply to any given passage to determine if it is "god's
truth" or if it is a redaction (as in Mark)?
Take care,
Simon
wiz@axaxa.com
http://www.axaxa.com/axaxa
cserve:70543,2540
---
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A :: Where only reality matters :: (1:250/666)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:04:46
EID:55e6 2056a080
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 628f058f
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca1c
>> And so does the mass killings.
>> Answer the damn question.
>> Why does your god murder?
AM>> What mass killings you refering to?
MG>> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
JP> How long have you equated Jim Jones with God ?
I never have. Your ability to sidestep the issue is wonderful.
Point is, tht some poeple trusted him and he murdered them. Your god let
it happen.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:09:00
EID:09ff 2056a120
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 628f16a3
AS> Just curious. (Oh, lest I be misunderstood, the world I am
AS> postulating would be like ours in every way except for the
AS> fossil record. I AM postulating a world where the lifeforms
AS> are formed by straightforward evolution.)
Behind the truth of evolution lies evidence. If the fossil record were
nonexistant, there are other methods. Small amounts of organic matter can
yield information about our past. In today's lab, I can detect 1.0 femptogram
of DNA (10^-15 grams). We can still compare sequences of living organisms.
The eivdence for the ruth is still there even if the fossil record were
not.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: THE FIRE
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:13:17
EID:190d 2056a1a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 628f1a24
AS> Nashville. Home of country music, which no native Nashvillian
AS> listens to, we just take the money.
I don't listen to it unless it was written 100 years ago.
AS> to redesign my web page or anything. (Not that that's hard,
AS> but I would have to look up all the links etc.). Probably
AS> get the system this upcoming Saturday (writing this in the
AS> 19th.).
Let us know the url of the page once you get it up.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:14:38
EID:0bb0 2056a1c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 628f224d
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 312a40e5
AM> Can you tell me a Designer didn't create this universe? If the
AM> answer is "I can't prove a negative" then why saddle me
AM> with the same dilemma? If you know of some unknown life,
AM> then here is the criteria I was faced with.
I think you had better reread the above without first drinking too much
first. I need evidence nothing. You make the claim of designer, you show
me the evidence. What you did instead was to post a bunch of trivial nonsense
and hope that it was evidence. It is not. You have failed to show how
the two are related.
AM> I have shown you evidence of a designer. Where is your list of
AM> evidences that suggests it was created by natural causes?
You've shown us what you WANT to be evidence. You show the designer and
get him to tell us that he did indeed design the universe and I'll believe
you. But don't quote the gawddamned bible.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:20:20
EID:a479 2056a280
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 628f2969
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892946BF
DW>> Hardly, how many times must this be explained to you?
DW>> Neither Fred nor any other atheist here claims to fallow
DW>> some superior moral code that everybody else should follow
DW>> as well. I don't give a fuck whether your software or anyone
DW>> else's is registered or not. If you tell me "Thou shalt not
DW>> steal" while using unregistered software, however, I'm
DW>> going to abuse the hell out of you.
MH> FOUR admissions that atheists have no morals. This is
MH> outstanding!
Did you read the same thing that I did? It says nothing of the sort.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:21:04
EID:a479 2056a2a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 628f2ba0
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892946C2
MH> Of course not. Since I posted this, four atheists have explained
MH> the difference: Atheists don't claim to adhere to a moral
MH> code, ................
...........that is followed by everyone else.
Or did you forget that part?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison List
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:32:47
EID:7209 2056a400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 628f4932
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 1279ae91
>> User Stance Favorite Poison
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---- The Late J.J. Hitt Death Spell Test Site Sugar-laden
>> teeth
>> rotting cola
>> Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes'
>> White Zinfandel Ryan Shaw atheist draught
>> Guinness Steve Quarrella Atheist Creemore
>> Ale or any
>> decent porter
>> John Prewett Sister Lover/Bitch the blood of
>> Christ Don Martin atheist Lagers,
>> porters and
>> ales from small
>> breweries
>> Preston G. Simpson agnostic Malted battery
>> acid
>> (a/k/a Coke)
>> The ONE, true fag! High balls! (what
>> else?) Lynda Bustilloz Christian/"catty bitch" Coffee,
>> high-octane Kath. Wintersnight Witch
>> coffee w\c&s, mead Thomas DelCano Pagan Pervert
>> Fresh Menstrual Blood Kevin McKenzie Tired
>> Snapple
SA> Styx Allum Chaotic Neutral Dr. Pepper
Martin Goldberg Atheistic Conservative Dark Roast. Hot and black
And since he's not here right now....
Martin Leipzig Geologic popsicle Corn Likker
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:30:11
EID:61f1 205623c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3880
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ee
Monday February 19 1996 15:35, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> Look at your own hatred, Ken, and note that the death
FR>> cult you joined has a history that fits you.
km>> I have no hatred Fred. And I have joined no death cult.
FR> You have basically joined the KKK and then demanded you're not a racist
FR> bigot.
No, Fred, I haven't or maybe you missed the part in the Bible that tells
us to love everybody? Maybe you have a hard time loving someone while not
liking what they are doing.
FR> You know what the history of the Christanic death cult is and what
FR> it continues to do to humanity around the world and yet you sit in the
FR> death cult and glibly demand you're not responsible for what the cult
does
FR> and stands for.
No, Fred I don't know the history of any Christanic death cult, I haven't
joined any such thing, how could I know anything about it. Oh, that's right
you still haven't told me the name of the church that committed the Inquistions,
Crusades and witch hunts have you? Post it or sit down and shut up.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it either, Ken
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:33:12
EID:5bd7 20562420
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3947
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ef
Monday February 19 1996 15:36, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> You are not "temping" your deity constructs when it's _you_ who
fr>> are instructed by your very own mythologies to drink. We know
fr>> that you won't drink because you know you're a false Christian
fr>> -- you only pretend to believe and you try to excuse your lack
fr>> of belief as "temping" your deity constructs.
FR>> Either drink it or admit you're a fraud.
km>> Go read the Bible and tell me what Christ
km>> said when someone asked him for a sign?
FR> Go read your mythologies and tell me who lied when they claimed you
could
FR> drink up and not be harmed. You are trying to wiggle out of the fact
that
FR> YOU have been caught out as a false Christian who doesn't honestly
FR> believe.
What mythologies? I don't read mythologies, that must be the problem, you've
been reading the wrong book. You don't even know what a Christian is, how
could you recognize a false one?
FR> Either drink up or admit you're a fraud.
Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal probably also believes in McDowell
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:37:13
EID:d4ce 205624a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3a3a
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f0
Monday February 19 1996 15:38, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>>> And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
FR>>> it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
FR>>> the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
FR> What utter evil the Christanic death cult is.
Where the admission that I would commit such an act Fred, come on, I'm still
waiting for it.....
FR>>> Witness why the Christanic death cult has the history it does.
km>>> Want to post the rest of it Fred?
FR>> That's all that needs to be said. Your willingness to murder your
fr>> own son when you start hearing voices in your head is why
fr>> Christianity has the history it does.
Where's it say that I am willing to murder my son Fred? Where's it say anything
about me hearing voices in my head for that matter? Huh? Come on Fred, post
the rest of it, or be debunked, sit down and shut up.
km>> Sorry Fredric, but nowhere in the statement above
km>> did I admit that I would sacrifice my own Son.
FR> Yet further admission that you're a fraud. Either admit that you're
fully
FR> willing to murder your own children else admit that you're only pretending
FR> to be a death cultist.
That's what the original discussion where you got that quote from came from
Fred. God would not ask me to murder my own children. Any such request would
not come from my God. Why? Because he sent his Son to die as the final sacrifice.
And BTW Fred, I have never pretended to be a death cultist. Now either post
the whole message you took the quote from, to prove what else I said in
it, or shut up.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:41:14
EID:635c 20562520
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3a8e
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f1
Monday February 19 1996 15:39, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> You end up knowing that Adolf Hitler did exactly what Christianity
has
FR>> done to innocent people for the past 2,000 years. You know what the
FR>> history of the Christanic death cult has been and you know that Adolf
FR>> Hitler was simply one Christian among millions who did exactly what
FR>> Christianity is designed to foment.
km>> Shows how much you really know Fred
FR> Which is why I'm intellectually superior to you. }:-}
Apparantly not, you keep seeing things that are there.
FR> Hitler was a Christian, Ken, sanctioned by nearly _all_ of European
FR> Christianity. Get over it.
Which church was it that sanctioned him Fred? BTW you don't know what a
Christian is, a true Christian can see right through Hitler's ploy.......
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Homophobic bigots
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:42:15
EID:7714 20562540
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3b0e
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f2
Monday February 19 1996 15:40, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
fR>>>>>> I am condemning no one. The homosexual who sexually practices
FR>>>>>> his homosexuality condemns himself." - Jim Staal
FR>>>>>> Are you just a liar or are you a liar for Jesus?
js>>>>>> What has the above post to do with hatred and bigotry?
FR>>>>> Perhaps your inability to see your own hatred and bigotry is
FR>>>>> what your problem is. Certainly it's why the Christanic
FR>>>>> death cult has the history it does.
km>>>>> Wait a minute Fred, tell me exactly where
km>>>>> does he say that he hates them?
FR>> And even when I prove to you that your fellow Christian hates Jews
you
FR>> _still_ want to pretend that Christanic hatred expressed by Staal and
FR>> yourself is justified.
km>> Sorry Fred, you've yet to prove that my fellow Christians hated Jews.
FR> I posted a lengthy speech from your fellow Christian Adolf Hitler where
he
FR> expresses the same hatred of Jews as you express of homosexuals.
Hitler was not "fellow Christian", Hitler did not follow Christ, in order
to be a Christian one has to follow Christ, not just make a fancy speech
saying that they are a Christian. Sit down Fred your debunked.
FR> Care to have your nose rubbed into the hurtful truth again?
You've yet to rub my nose in anything Fred, your's however should be getting
sore by now. Or maybe you like to give us the name of the church?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Homophobic bigots
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:44:16
EID:7714 20562580
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3b62
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f3
Monday February 19 1996 15:42, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> bet you a buck you continue to make the same death cultist mistake.
km>> Can't, don't belong to a death cult.
FR> Perhaps you don't know the history of the Christanic death cult. I
wonder
FR> if I should suggest some history text books for your education.
Naw, just tell me the name of the church, that will settle this debate once
and for all.
km>>> Then why Fred if Hitler did not hate the Jews,
km>>> did he try to wipe them out?
FR>> He did hate Jews, just as homophobic bigots like you hate fags. And
FR>> people like you used to murder gays and would love to start up again
fr>> today if they could, just like your fellow Christian Adolf Hitler.
km>> I don't hate fags.
FR> Sure you do, Ken, and you use your death cult fictional constructs to
FR> justify your hatred. Like any fascist you demand that you love them
and
FR> hate the "sin" of homosexuality never mind that "sin" is a fictional
FR> artifact of your death cult.
Fred I don't belong to any death cult....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Homophobic bigots
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:46:17
EID:7714 205625c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3baa
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29f4
Monday February 19 1996 15:44, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> Drink up, Ken, and do the world a small favor.
km>> You place so much trust in it, you drink up.
FR> I understand the physics and a bit of the biology involved in the drinking
FR> of metabolic poisons so I know that your own mythologies prove themselves
FR> a fraud.
FR> And your lack of faith and courage needed to drink up also proves you
a
FR> fraud.
Have you forgotten? Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:47:18
EID:5594 205625e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3e8a
REPLY: 1:123/67 3129a6e7
Tuesday February 20 1996 10:38, Shelby Sherman mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> That's one of the points I've been trying to make. I might not be
KM>> able to prove to you that God exist (because you don't except the
KM>> Bible as evidence)
SS> Why should he? Real evidence points to a conclusion, regardless of
the
SS> attitudes or beliefs of those viewing the evidence.
Conclusion? Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of
live was cast into the lake of fire." How's that?
SS> The bible is merely
SS> a written work that includes the history and the history of the religion
SS> of some primitive animal herders in the middle east. Do you consider
SS> Bullfinch's Mythology to be evidence of the existence of Zeus?
I don't believe in myths....
KM>> but it cannot be proven to me that he does not
KM>> exist. If it cannot be proven to me that he does not exist,
SS> [Egad, not this again]
You want to continue? Understand this, unless it can be proven to me that
God does not exist, I will not stop believing.
KM>> I have no
KM>> reason to stop believing in him,
SS> You have no reason to stop believing in the Easter Bunny either, do
SS> you?
Sure I do, he doesn't show up at my house.
KM>> and yes, I understand that you,
KM>> without evidence, have no reason to start believing in him. I also
KM>> believe that unless you believe the Bible, that you cannot believe
at
KM>> all, because belief in God starts with the scriptures.
SS> This is circular reasoning. Why don't you believe in The Cosmic Star
SS> Goat?
Because the star goat is not God. You can call it circular reason all you
want. I don't care what you call it, it still stands. According to the scriptures
that I believe in, if you will not believe them, you will not believe. What's
so circular about that?
SS> The Cosmic Star Goat (The one and only True God) sent his son, Billy,
to
SS> die on the Wholly B-B-Q Pit for our sins. If you do not BELIEVE in
Billy,
SS> you will be eaten on Judgment Day by The Cosmic Star Goat, to stew in
the
SS> Wholly Bile for all of eternity.
SS> You can avoid this eternity of punishment by being bathed in the Wholly
SS> Piss of The Cosmic Star Goat and having all of your SINS washed away.
SS> This Cosmic TRUTH is based on faith which is my EVIDENCE of the existence
SS> of the Cosmic Star Goat and his son, Billy. This FAITH is EVIDENCE
for me
SS> but not for you, since you must first BELIEVE in The Cosmic Star Goat
for
SS> the EVIDENCE to be revealed to you.
SS> Since you cannot PROVE that The Cosmic Star Goat does not exist, you
must
SS> consider the possibility that she does exist, and therefore The Cosmic
SS> Star Goat does exist for all who will BELIEVE in hir.
SS> BELIEF does impact EXISTENCE and all you have to do is to BELIEVE in
The
SS> Cosmic Star Goat and she will exist.
SS> Does this sound familar?
Galations 6:7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man
soweth, that shall he also reap."
KM>> Once you start
KM>> believing the scriptures, then you might find other evidence as well,
SS> The defense rests.
Ok Shelby, tell me, where did you learn of the star goat?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:59:19
EID:88f5 20562760
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3f30
REPLY: 1:207/212 a9ce8ab4
Tuesday February 20 1996 19:33, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> And God can't send "his" word simultaneously to everywhere there are
KD>> people to combat this?
KM>> That's why he told us to "Go into the world and preach the Gospel".
KD> Why didn't HE just arrange for it to be done without his fallible
KD> humans? And a message so connected with the culture of the Middle
KD> East...
I'm not one to question why God did it this way or that way, I have no reason
to. But tell you what, you ask him when you meet him.
KM>> A lot of them were, tell me, how would you feel if the one that you
KM>> crucified arose from the grave? Would you face him? What would you
KM>> have written about it? Also while looking up the prophecies that you
KM>> think that Christ didn't fulfill, remember that we have not read all
KM>> that he said and did.
KD> They didn't crucify him.
Who did?
KD> Let me get with some of my Jewish correspondents and get a list of
KD> prophecies he didn't fulfill.
You expect me to believe someone that does not believe in Christ?
KD>> Why? Doesn't do us any good. Think of all the generations that died
KD>> without knowing your mythology...
KM>> Sorry, I don't spread mythology.
KD> That's what your Bible is. Period.
That's your opinion, PERIOD. Your opinion does not make it so.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:02:20
EID:d007 20562840
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c4391
REPLY: 1:207/212 f8543cd4
Tuesday February 20 1996 19:35, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> You haven't been in hell yet, you may think that you have, but you
KM>> haven't.
KD> Hell can't be worse than what I went through as a teenager.
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments....." (Luke 16:31)
"..... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev 20:10)
I wouldn't be so sure about that....
KM>> You don't beleive in it, I do. Christ said that it exists, it is also
KM>> cast into the lake of fire in Revelation, now how could it be cast
KM>> into the lake of fire if it does not exist?
KD> How can Bilbo Baggins have stolen the arkenstone from Smaug if he didn't
KD> exist?
KD> How could King Arthur have received the sword from the strange woman
KD> lying in a pond [which is no basis for a system of government :)] if
it
KD> didn't exist?
KD> It's called fiction, Ken.
That's your problem, you believe the Bible is fiction.
KD>> I don't care to meet him.
KM>> You won't have any choice.
KD> Wait a minute - he's going to meet me before he sends me to hell? Kewl.
Revelation 20:11-15" And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;
and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book
of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written
in the books, according to thier works. And the see gave up the dead which
were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead whcih were in them:
and they were judged every man according to thier works. And death and hell
were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever
was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
I don't know about hell, but you will meet him before you end up in the
lake of fire.
KD>> It's god's problem to convince me.
KM>> No, it's not.
KD> Huh? He wants me to worship him and believe in him, and follow his laws,
KD> but isn't willing to take the trouble to demonstrate his EXISTENCE?
He left us the scriptures, that's what you expected to believe.
KM>> Not less, your role is different, but not less.
KD> Separate but equal is not equal. And if I am subordinate to him, I am
KD> less. Period.
KD>> But they're not sinning except for not singing his praises. People
KM>> like
KD>> me.
KM>> You've never sinned?
KD> Let's see... of the big 10, other than the ones which require worship
of
KD> him...
Sin is not based on just he "big 10".
KD> I haven't stolen since I was of a responsible age.
KD> I am completely faithful to my husband.
KD> I have not knowingly accused someone of a crime that they didn't commit.
KD> I recognize the difference between wishing for something LIKE my
KD> neighbor's and striving for it, and wishing for THAT EXACT ITEM. I have
KD> never committed the latter, ever in my memory, or at least since I
KD> reached a resonsible age.
KD> Other than stating the truth about how I was treated by my parents,
I
KD> treat them well.
KD> I have never killed a human being. Not even in self defense.
Disobediance is sin, every drive over the speed limit?
Christ said if you lust in your heart you've already committed the sin.
Put all these aside, the scriptures teach us that all have sinned.
KM> KM>>> Learing about the Bible is not worshipping.
KD>> You need to get together that often to study your mythology?
KM>> I don't study any mythology.
KD> Shame... all culture's mythologies are fascinating, including our own.
KM>> No, I have not been given a higher status, never seen anywhere at all
KM>> in the Bible where it says I've been given a higher status.
KD> Huh? Men being the head of the house isn't a higher status?
Not to me.
KD>> I need evidence. If he put me in this jail, such a horrible jail that
KM>> it
KD>> was a PUNISHMENT for Adam and Eve, then he deserves not a single
KM>> thanks
KD>> for happening to leave the necessities of life around.
KM>> The Bible is the evidence, ask Preston...
KD> Speak to my point. If this is a prison, why am I not justified in being
KD> angry at being kept here permanently?
This is not a prison to start with......
KM>> That doesn't change what I do.
KD> Oh yes... you'd thank a jailor for the food.
Why not? Does it kill you to be polite?
KM>> His Word is his evidence.
KD> Then give me evidence that it is his word.
"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
KM>> Really? The small group in the middle east turned thier back on him
KM>> and crucified him remember?
KD> If he had fulfilled all their prophecies, why weren't they all
KD> convinced?
Wasn't a matter of being convinced. Even Pilot could not find anything wrong
with what Christ said or did. That is why he wrote what he did above Christ
on the cross. They were threatened by Christ, he was telling everyone how
things were suppose to be. They, like some here, tried to twist everything
around to use it against him. However, they were wrong, and plotted against
him.
KD>> I should be grateful and bow down to him for letting me live in a
KM>> world
KD>> that was a punishment to the first 2 people he created.
KM>> That was there fault not his.
KD> Speak to the point.
I did....
KD>> An all powerful god can't forgive us our sins without a sacrifice?
KM>> Forgive yes, but he has said that for sin there must be death, God
KM>> gave the first sacrifice and the last.
KD> For sin there must be death... fun god, there.
That's why he sent his Son to die for us. His Son having no sin in his own
life, could pay for our sins in just 3 days. After that, he had to be released
from death and hell, it could not hold him. Christ died so that we could
live, fun god? Maybe not, but he fixed the sins of the world, all one has
to do is to have faith in him..
KM>> God gave us the final sacrifice so that we would not have to, after
KM>> that sacrifice all he asks is that we believe.
KD> He asks too much.
To believe?
KM>> I'm have breath because I'm alive, who gave me the air?
KD> The plants.
Who created the plants?
KM>> I must be ok then, I don't accept any 2000+ year old mythology.
KD> Your Bible is that mythology.
No, it's not.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:20:21
EID:d007 20562a80
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c4423
REPLY: 1:207/212 bab89f60
Tuesday February 20 1996 19:50, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> OK, let's take this one step at a time - if she hurt me, who needs
to
KD>> make amends to whom?
KM>> I didn't make any statement about her hurting you did I? I said, if
KM>> she did not sin, she would not have abused you.
KD> First, speak to the point.
I do speak to the point, it's not my fault if you don't like my statements.
I spoke to the point made.
KD> Second - it occurs to me that her harm to me is not a sin by your god's
KD> book.
Based on what?
KM>> Really? I guess when that guy tried to run me over with his silver
KM>> nova because he wanted my girl-friend for his girl-friend, I didn't
KM>> see the destructive capabilities.
KD> This happened to you and you still claim jealousy isn't a character
KD> flaw? [sheesh!]
I don't consider emotions a flaw, how we handle those amount is the character
flaw. I've been jealous before, but I never tried to run anyone down with
a car because of it.
KD>> Why is he so hung up on being believed in?
KM>> Ask him when you meet him.
KD> If he gives me a good answer, I'll let you know. But he'll have to exist
KD> first.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Staal also has great
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:23:22
EID:3955 20562ae0
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c4500
REPLY: 1:215/130 001492d3
Wednesday February 21 1996 18:52, Elliott Finesse mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
>> Sure I was, maybe I should make myself a little more specific? Which
>> church conducted the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the witch hunts?
EF> Ken, at the time of the Crusades there was only one Christian church.
The
EF> Inquistion was conducted by the Catholic church. Witch hunts were a
mixed
EF> bag, church-wise. Did you have a point to make?
Elliott,
Point to make, yes I do. If you trace my church back to it's beginnings
you'll find that that same church persecuated many from faith or church.
No matter what church they belong to, anyone committing these kind of acts
are not Christians. To be a Christian means to be more Christ like, and
they were not being Christ like.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Staal probably also b
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:26:23
EID:4e9c 20562b40
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c4663
REPLY: 1:215/130 001492db
Wednesday February 21 1996 18:52, Elliott Finesse mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
>> Sorry Fredric, but nowhere in the statement above did I admit that
>> sacrifice my own Son. Only that if God asked me to kill my son that I
>> it as a sacrifice.
EF> That's damning enough, Ken. It isn't too surprising that you were unaware
EF> your admission demonstrates the situational ethics inherent in your
EF> religious dogma. To you and your ilk, murder can be bad or good, depending
EF> upon who does (or who "requests") it.
What Fred does not post is the rest of the message. The discussion with
David came about after David asked me if I would kill my son if God asked
me to. I told him that my God would not ask me to because that would be
a sacrifice and he himself had sent his Son to die as the final sacrifice.
The statement that Fred quotes comes out of that discussion. David kept
saying that he did not ask me about a sacrifice, and I told him that statement.
I never admitted that I would do such an act, which is what Fred keeps claiming.
I was telling David that my God would not ask me to do it.
EF> A "morality" that says "taking an innocent life is ok - if my God tells
me
EF> to" is no morality at all.
I never made that statement either.
EF> Don't you get it? An immoral act is immoral no matter who does it (or
EF> "requests" it).
Don't you get it, I never stated that I would do such and act, that is what
Fred is trying to get you to believe, but he's lieing. If he would bother
to post the rest of the message, you'de see that.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:33:24
EID:7ceb 20562c20
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c46ce
REPLY: 1:215/130 001492e5
Wednesday February 21 1996 18:52, Elliott Finesse mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
>> Shows how much you really know Fred, the church or faith that I fo
>> one that has been persecuted and killed by the so called Christians fo
EF> And just what "church or faith" might that be? Or would you prefer to
keep
EF> it a secret? After reading some of your posts I can understand why you
EF> might.
Elliott,
I have not problem telling you which one it is. Independent, Fundamental,
Premillennial, Bible Believing Baptist.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Homoph
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:34:25
EID:7b1b 20562c40
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c4798
REPLY: 1:215/130 001492ee
Wednesday February 21 1996 18:52, Elliott Finesse mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
>> Sorry Fred, you've yet to prove that my fellow Christians hated Jews.
>> meant Hitler, sorry, but no matter how much he claimed it, he was not
>> Christian.
EF> Perhaps not. But then neither was Moses. Do you believe that Moses was
a
EF> prophet of your god?
I was wondering how long it would take someone to realize that. Yes, I believe
that Moses was a prophet of my God.
>> I don't hate fags. And no I would not love to start murdering gays. If
>> murdered them they might not have a chance to get saved. And sorry aga
>> Hitler was not a fellow Christian of mine.
EF> Maybe, maybe not, but he _was_ raised as a Christian and was a fellow
EF> theist of yours, and seems to have had the same situational ethics as
you:
EF> "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the almighty Creator.
By
EF> warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lords work." -- A. Hitler
EF> before the Reichstag 1939
No, you have the situaltional ethics all wrong. I explained that in an earlier
post. Your assuming the I accept that one can sacrifice someone for God.
I do not accept that, because today we have the Son of God, who was the
end of all sacrifices. I would never try to "ward off the Jews", they are
my Lord's chosen people, even if they have turned thier back on him.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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0 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
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|From: Pam Gray
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 21 Feb 96 17:40:28
EID:0705 20558d00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1a91ea03
Boni,
I don't think he will but then you may never know... :)
BH> I'm giving it up for Lent...:-) I like "The King Of Dry"'s attitude
BH> towards it...check out ToxicNet and his reply to Prozac...
I will thanks!
BH> I can't see what the use is to read through 300 msgs and we can't
BH> respond! See Tagline...
Let's go elsewhere...
BH> þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...All stressed out and no one to choke!...
HEHEHEHE good one!
Take care,
Pam
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: David Robins
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:12:57
EID:06fd 20562980
MSGID: 1:247/312.0 312cfa31
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a31
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
___ Quoting Fredric Rice to All re Quote on 19 Feb 96 06:21:59
FR> Well godDan! HOLYSMOKE's got more ministers per square foot
FR> than even the most popular brothel in New Orleans. - David Rice
FR> ~*~ Evolution is likely ultimately from the devil, to misdirect
FR> people. - David Robins
Nice... you can take out the "likely" and change it to:
Evolution is ultimately from the devil, for if people believe that they
are
products of random chance they will never turn to God.
I like it.
Thanks very much :P
Dave
ú úùÄúÄù--Ä-ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-Ä--ÄùÄúÄùú ú
Overlord - sysop: Death's Vortex @ 1-905-892-5619
Vortex WHQ - F'REQ "VORTEX" for product list.
ú úùÄúÄù--Ä-ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-Ä--ÄùÄúÄùú ú
... Mary had a little lamb, some white wine, and a tossed salad.
--- No Walruses!
* Origin: Bloom County - Welland, Ontario >>(905) 732-9956<< (1:247/312)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal won't drink it either
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:04:03
EID:5bd7 20562080
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c31b6
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a3c
Monday February 19 1996 12:12, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
DR>> You are therefore merely one god short of being atheist. What's
DR>> one more out of hundreds of thousands?
km>> There are no other gods.
FR> They all wont just simply disappear because you want them to, Ken.
That which does not exist, cannot disappear.
FR> Drink up.
Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staal
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:05:04
EID:f431 205620a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c32b8
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a44
Monday February 19 1996 12:23, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
BH>>> CHRISTIAN HORIZONS
KW>>> Looks fine to me. If the organization is owned and run by
KW>>> christians why shouldn't they be able to choose who they
KW>>> want as employees?
FR>> But then Ken is a bigot.
km>> Isn't that kinda like the pot calling the kettle burnt?
FR> No. You're a hate-filled bigot who would murder your own son. You
said
FR> so yourself.
No Fredrick, in the post that you love to quote me on, I never stated that
I would murder my own son. I said that if God asked me to kill my son, I
would consider it a sacrifice, but I never stated that I would make that
sacrifice, did I? Huh? Excuse me? I can't hear you Fred, or perhaps to prove
me wrong, you'de like to post the message where I said I WOULD murder or
sacrifice my son?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW, Staal
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:09:05
EID:426a 20562120
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3340
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a45
Monday February 19 1996 12:24, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> Why don't you and Al just do what every other Christanic cultist
fr>> does and kill each other, allowing your intellectual superiors
fr>> to talk rationally among themselves?
km>> Be happy to allow my intellectual superiors to talk rationally
km>> amongst themselves, unfortunatly, I don't find any around here.
FR> That's because your critical thinking facilities have been damaged by
your
FR> need to believe in the occult. It would be a great service to humanity
FR> were warring Christanic factions to quietly solve their occultism
FR> someplace without involving innocent people.
I'm not a war with any Christanic factions, but then I do know what Christian
is, where from your previous posts you do not. I believe in no occult, a
fact that I have pointed out to you many times, but apparantly your thinking
facilities are unable to grasp that which you are told.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Free Jim Staal!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:11:06
EID:708d 20562160
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3387
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a46
Monday February 19 1996 12:25, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> I wonder if Jim Staal _can_ be freed from his hatred and bigotry.
fr>> He doesn't seem to want to escape Christianity any more.
km>> No true Christian would......
FR> Which deserves a great measure of pity.
Fredric,
Go ahead and pity us if that's what you think you have to do, it is you
who will need the pity after the judgements. That is of course if you never
accept Christ as your saviour.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Gods, not god, staal
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:12:07
EID:fd4c 20562180
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c33cf
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a47
Monday February 19 1996 12:26, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
CM>>> It's not very smart to worship a rock.
fr>>> Whereas you worship paper.
FR>> So much for your Christanic lie about fleeing this forum in fear.
cm>>> How do I worship paper?
FR>> You're not a Christian so you only pretend to worship paper.
km>> From all that you've said to others and myself Fredric, specifically
km>> about who was a Christian and what that so called Christian did, I
km>> doubt very much if you would know a Christian if you fell over one.
FR> Anyone who claims to believe in the Christanic mythologies is a Christanic
FR> death cultist, Ken. That includes your fellow death cultist Adolf Hitler.
Fredric,
Anyone who claims to belive in Christian mythologies? Good, then I'm not
a death cultist, thanks for admitting that Fred.....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:14:08
EID:0d40 205621c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3478
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a48
Monday February 19 1996 12:27, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
cm>>> Here I thought no one loved me anymore! You guys are just
cm>>> talking ABOUT me instead of TO me. Gee, I get left out of
cm>>> my own conversations!!!
FR>> We've figured out that you're not a Christian.
km>> Another judgement by Fredric Rice.
FR> The guy forgot to remove his sex chat forums on his BBS before someone
FR> from this educational forum went and did a little online investigations.
FR> He's not a Christanic death cultist.
From your constant posts of who is and is not a Christian, you have shown
that you do not know who or what a Christian is. I could claim to be black,
but that would not make me black would it?
FR> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:16:09
EID:61f1 20562200
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c3609
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ec
Monday February 19 1996 15:31, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
km>>>> Who conducted the Crusades?
km>>>> Who conducted the Inquisitions?
km>>>> Who conducted the Witch hunts?
FR>>> Christians, clown. Perhaps you should actually learn the origins
of
fr>>> the Christanic death cult, Ken, then perhaps you could find the
fr>>> courage to escape it. Hatred and bigotry is an ideological baseline
fr>>> for Christianity -- as you well know. Stop pretending otherwise.
km>>> OK, let's be more specific Fred, which church conducted
km>>> the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the witch hunts?
FR>> The Christanic death cult, silly. Weren't you paying attention? For
FR>> centuries Christanics slaughtered millions upon millions of innocent
FR>> people, sacrficing them to their death gods. This hatred and bigotry
FR>> still exists today through the broad spectrum of Christanic brad names.
km>> Sure I was, maybe I should make myself a little more specific?
FR> Okay.
km>> Which church conducted the Crusades, the
km>> Inquisitions and the witch hunts?
FR> As I have said (and as you well know) the Christian religion.
FR> Christianity has been and continues to be the single worse tyranny ever
FR> inflicted upon humanity. Want evidence:
What's the matter Fred, afraid to name which church conducted the Crusades,
the Inquisitions and the witch hunts? Or maybe you don't know? Maybe your
afraid of what I will tell you after you name the church. Quit squiming
Fred, either name the church or shut up.....
FR> And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
FR> it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
FR> the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
I'm glad you posted that Fred, now maybe you can show me where I said I
would commit the sacrifice? Huh? What? Speak up Fred I can't hear you.
FR> Witness what the Christanic death cult does to people with your own
words.
Where Fred? I see no Christianic death cult posting anything here. I also
do not see anywhere where it says that I would commit such and act. Face
it Fred, you don't have a leg to stand on, that's why your constantly repeating
the same thing. You will not discredit me, or my Lord with your feeble attempts.
Either post the part of the message that says I would murder my son or shut
up, you've been debunked. While your at it, post the name of the church
that committed the Inquisitions, Crusades and the witch hunts, or sit down
and shut up.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 22 Feb 96 04:23:10
EID:61f1 205622e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 312c37c3
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190f29ed
Monday February 19 1996 15:33, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>> Pretending Christanics aren't "true" Christanics is an evil lie that
FR>> Christians are taught to mouth to themselves. They can't fool their
FR>> intellectual superiors.
km>> Only intellectual superior I have is God
FR> You concocted your deity constructs to justify your actions and the
FR> activities of your fellow death cultists.
I didn't write the scriptures.....
FR> Those who recognize the origins
FR> of your fictional constructs are your intellectual superiors, Ken, as
well
FR> as your moral and ethical superiors.
You are a legend in your own mind, Fred....
FR> We don't glibly demand we're going
FR> to kill our own children when we start hearing voices:
FR> And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
FR> it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
FR> the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
I see you have still failed to post the message where I would commit the
sacrifice, either post it or shut up. Come on Fred, your supposedly so intellectually
superiors, where does it say that I would commit it? What afraid to post
the whole message? Afraid that everyone here would see that I was telling
David that my God would not ask me to sacrifice my son? Give it up Fred,
trying to twist the words won't work on this one, there is nothing there
that says I would murder my son. Only that if God asked me to kill my son,
that I would see it as a sacrifice. NOWHERE does it say that I would commit
that sacrifice. As a matter of fact I told David that my God would not ask
me to sacrifice my son, because God sent his Son as the final sacrifice.
You know for someone that is supposidly intellectually superior, you sure
do have a problem with comprehension. Now, either post the part where I
said I would commit the sacrifice, or sit down and shut up.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Keith Pachulski
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE A
|Date: 22 Feb 96 08:12:38
EID:392f 20564180
MSGID: 1:272/72.0 892BC4EC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0455
-> -=> Quoting Keith Pachulski to The Raven <=-
->
-> -> My evidence? Simple: I hold this view of Wicca myself. Su
->
-> KP> Learn what the word evidence means.....
->
-> Jack Butler, AKA The Raven is an Indian (Seminole, I believe) and al
-> lawyer. Evidence (or lack of it) is his meat and drink.
Ahh...evidence oh evidence...as too is it mine
-> -> probably inaccurate, but that is how I view it. Most of the peop
-> -> practicing it are women who are "looking to escape the patriarcha
-> -> dictatorship of standard religions and tap into the secret, hidde
-> -> the female being". (Quote, unquote from Kathryn Hurdt, proud mem
-> -> Wiccan faith.)
-> ->
-> -> Jack Butler
->
-> KP> LOL....ignorance is bliss
->
->
-> Then perhaps you're being orgasmic.
LOL....Hey, you never know...
-> Perhaps it would be more in keeping with your Wiccan principles to a
-> before you insult.
-> I strongly advise it.
I never said I was Wiccan...I just date one...but to be fair I do follow
one of the "Pagan" (I hate that term) paths.
Keith Pachulski
AKA - FFynix
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Luv at First BYTE (1:272/72.0)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jason Ballard
|Sub: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:32:14
EID:30ea 2056b400
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d353d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jason Ballard Paganistic Followers wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JB> I pray for forgiveness to the earth, the trees, the land, they
JB> suffer because of us, the animals, the seas, the streams and oceans
JB> are flooded and filled with our hatred. There is no longer a thing as
"Our" hatred, Jason? Hardly. Tell you what: you pray for forgiveness all
you like. Myself, I have nothing to be ashamed of. But if it pleases you
to have a guilt complex, go right ahead.
JB> peace, hatred as filled this earth and no one can stop that now. There
You're going a bit far. Strike that; you're going *way* too far. Peace does
still exist in the world, though you seem to enjoy thinking otherwise.
Sure, things aren't great, and we could stand improvement, but the world
is
not going to end tomorrow.
JB> is nothing but constant hate, braught on by your religions, there use
JB> to be no hate no indifferences until this so called thing religion
JB> came, we were just ordinary creatures, like dogs and birds, free and
Wrong. Hatred is a simple emotion, one of the easiest to feel. I've seen
it in animals plenty of times--or are you going to suggest that animals
don't hate?
JB> striving to survive the world, mother nature never intended on us
JB> becoming so advanced with knowledge or technology, and people say
"mother nature never intended." How do you know? Does she talk to you
on a regular basis? As far as the evidence shows, we got here by being
superior in one way or another to the life around us. Without knowledge
or technology, we wouldn't have made it this far--and I daresay that
we wouldn't have made it at all.
But if you have a problem with knowledge and technology, go right ahead
and indulge yourself. Strip naked and go live in a forest. Shun all
attempts for aid, avoid vaccination, drink water from streams and pools,
eat only what you can have without a fire, and come back in a year's time
to tell us how you've done. If you have any dental work, get rid of it.
If you have any artificial aid (such as glasses or a pacemaker), remove
it. Don't communicate with anyone either--we wouldn't want you to have
too much knowledge, would we?
JB> these things happen for a reason, now mother nature will get revenge
JB> with her storms and the gaian theory and prophecy of the Arian race
JB> will come true, when nature calls we all shall drown.
Really? And your evidence of this is what, exactly?
JB> It is true that people believe what they want to believe, but
JB> to teach them a lie, to fill there heart with lies and make them
JB> believe in lies. Turn them from what they really are, the animals look
JB> at us and say what the hell has become of you? Why can't you be
I'm looking at an animal right now. She's rather busily eating the food
that I gave her. She doesn't seem to be too upset about accepting it from
me, either.
JB> yourselves who you truly were meant to be, if god intended us to live
Psst. I *am* being myself.
JB> upside down what is right, what is wrong? We were never intended to
Intended? Intended by whom?
JB> beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were all born
JB> pagans in the beginning why changed beliefs, christians are the
We were all born naked and screaming too, why change that?
Some of us were born with birth defects. Why change that?
JB> supremacists they fight for there religion to take over the world and
I dislike generalizations. To say that all Christians fight for their
religion in a quest for world dominance is on a par with saying that
everyone named Jason is an incredible lout, and they should all be
drawn and quartered.
Are you not fighting to bring everyone in the world to believe as you do?
If so, you are doing the exact same thing that you accuse the Christians
of.
JB> don't try to tell me other wise I have seen it with my own eyes how
I'll tell you otherwise if I damned well please, junior. Three of the
better human beings I know are Christian--and for some curious reason,
they don't act the way that you're describing. Hmmm. Wonder why that is?
JB> watch over us when we can all watch over ourselves. We all must become
JB> a supreme race of beings, but religion changes that, the wars, the
Why must we become supreme when you were arguing that things were better
when we were like ordinary animals?
JB> scars of the past nothing can be changed, and yet the war continues
JB> within, there will never be anymore peace, so why not fight back..
I take it that the work of Mohandas K. Gandhi was lost on you.
JB> They want to rip me of my beliefs then i'll fight them to the end..
JB> Take care friend.
Jason, I must say that you come across as a very incoherent and confused
person. Seek help of some sort soon.
... You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:32:14
EID:03ef 2056b400
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d353e
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Shelby Sherman AN INTERESTING SITUATION. wgah'nagl fhtagn.
SS> When the war ended, millions of Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, homosexuals,
SS> Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists, and others targeted by the Nazis, had
SS> died in the Holocaust. The Jewish dead numbered more than 5 million:
SS> about 3 million in killing centers and other camps, 1.4 million in
SS> shooting operations, and more than 600,000 in ghettos. (Traditional
SS> estimates are closer to 6 million.)
SS> "Holocaust," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 96 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1995
SS> Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. (c) Funk & Wagnalls
SS> Corporation. All rights reserved.
You *know* what he'll say. He's predictable that way.
... AD&D Famous last words: "Dammit, this thing won't die!"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Fundamentalists R Us
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:32:14
EID:aa90 2056b400
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d353f
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Rob Burcham Fundamentalists R Us wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Or: "HOLYSMOKE: The Amusement Park."
RB> Where the favorite ride is the ferris wheel (having the same
RB> shape as fundi reasoning).
Whee!
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: End Times!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:32:14
EID:afbc 2056b400
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d3540
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Larry Jansen End Times! wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LJ> I hope you realize that the international bankers are behind us being
I hope you realize that no thinking person takes your garbage seriously,
coward.
LJ> in Bosnia. Iraq and Iran are next on their agenda. "Too bad" that
LJ> our "children" will have to die, so that they can make more money, and
LJ> enslave the world.
And you're jealous because you're not going to get a cut, aren't you?
LJ> All hail! Satan and his New World Order are upon us -- ez. 38, 39, 40;
LJ> rv. 20: 7-15.
You're hailing Satan? This I gotta see.
... Famous Last Words: "I bet it's an illusion."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Don Ward
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:57:23
EID:997d 2056b720
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d3b24
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Don Ward ANGELS.... wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DW> Will you also acknowledge Jesus Christ or is it just celestial beings
DW> such as Angels?
Will you also acknowledge Nodens or is it just beings such as nightgaunts?
DW> By the way Dawn this Holy Smoke is not what it appears to be. It is
a
Oh, the horror. You've exposed us. Damn everything. And we had her in our
clutches too.
DW> device the used by atheist and agnostics to blasphemy against our Lord
Atheist, singular? There's more than one of those here--and as far as I
know, I'm the only professed agnostic here.
DW> attempted to re-assure each other that there is no God. And will not
DW> even listen to their own hearts. But one day they will be own their
If you are speaking of hearts in the physical sense, then I hear mine
beating. If you are speaking of hearts in a metaphorical sense, mine says
that any deity who ignores his worshippers and orders children to be slain
is not a deity that I wish to worship.
DW> knees explaining their own iniquities and foolishness to GOD.........
More threats. How many times must I tell you that I do not fear your god
and see no reason to do him the courtesy of bending my knee to him?
DW> Furthermore these men and women are fulfilling a prophecy in the Bible
DW> read it as it will better help you understand where these people dwell
DW> in their own folly..........
Imagine. The Bible predicted that people who believed in it would
be persecuted. D'you think this was because someone realized what a load
of codswallop you're pushing at people?
DW> 2 Tim 3:2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money,
DW> boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful,
DW> unholy,
This has always happened, Don. Why is today any different?
DW> Speaking of all agnostics and atheist and their religion against
DW> God...
Agnostics and atheists are for the most part conspicuously lacking any
religion.
DW> 2 Tim 3:3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without
DW> self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
This is amusing and utterly untrue.
DW> Read some of their replys and you tell me if this is not so........
You, on the other hand, are judgmental, superficial, and certainly not
a model Christian. You should be ashamed of yourself for all of the
damage that you're doing to your religion--were it left to you, no one
would have to try to dissuade people from becoming Christians; you'd do
it for them.
DW> 2 Tim 3:6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain
DW> control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are
DW> swayed by all kinds of evil desires,
DW> 2 Tim 3:7 always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.
Gee, much like you. How curious.
DW> Speaking of "SCIENCE" and its factural folly........
Ah, yes, science, that wonderful stuff that brought you the computer that
you're spewing your bullshit to the masses with and the vaccinations that
kept you from getting smallpox and polio. If you've got that much of a
problem with science, strip naked and live in a forest for the rest of your
life. Don't bother with using fire or any tools--after all, I wouldn't want
you to be exposed to that horrible science.
... "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he lit the end of the gas-soaked rag.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: children
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:57:24
EID:7a23 2056b720
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d3b25
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Dan Ceppa children wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DC> Then, Mikey, why do 2/3 of all pregnancies result in a miscarriage
DC> or a spontaneous abortion?
PS> One-third to half, Dan. I don't think it's as high as two-thirds.
DC> It's about that high, Preston. Got the figures from the Washington
DC> State department that did the surveys. Those figures are nation-wide.
Mea culpa.
DC> I also have them on a more personal basis from the stats of both of
DC> my sisters. One is a bit below that figure. The other one is far
DC> above it. Those stats are on only known pregnancies, not very early
DC> miscarriages, that may go unnoticed.
My condolences.
... "That damn plate mail o' his didn't save him from the oil..."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:57:24
EID:0b62 2056b720
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d3b26
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Eric Hendrix Cult Christianity wgah'nagl fhtagn.
EH> Ok, let me re-phrase. *I* don't go out and kill people, because it is
EH> against my belief. I can't change what other people have done, nor
EH> will I be held accountable for it.
No? God held people accountable for the deeds of others frequently in the
OT. Why is it not so today?
... "We took the liberty of removing your mage's brain."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:57:24
EID:0080 2056b720
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d3b27
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Owens Comminuion wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JO> A person recently told me that the early beginnings of the christian
JO> ritual of holy comminuion were rooted in canabilism. This person
JO> claimed that if you ate the flesh and drank the blood of a person then
JO> you would aquire the attributes of that person.
JO> Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
Frequently and it isn't surprising; it's a belief that dates from
prehistory.
... AD&D Quote: "What do you mean I hit with negative damage?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:57:24
EID:060a 2056b720
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 312d3b28
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Kevin D. Mckenzie Thumb-sucking evolungelic wgah'nagl
fhtagn.
AM> Philosophy, is more rational basis for belief then science,
AM> because science can't get off the runway without philisophical
AM> presuppositions.
KDM> Perhaps, but at least science can be applied to reality. Pure
KDM> philosophy can not.
He keeps saying it, but I don't see him backing it up. I wonder why.
... Cthulhu is no*!%$#!@NO CARRIER
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1
SEEN-BY: 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 20 Feb 96 17:05:00
EID:8003 205488a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312c662b
SA>One can believe in anything one wants here. HOWEVER, it _is_
SA>illegal to discriminate against hiring workers on the basis of
SA>religion (as well as age, sex, race, and several other factors.)
RM> Is it? I think there was a case in California where a Christian
California has no impact on Canadian law, and Canadian law was the
original issue.
RM> org didn't hire someone on the basis that the person wasn't a
RM> practicing Christian. The org one the lawsuit. There are some orgs
RM> that are predominantly Christian and if you want to work there then
it
The plain and simple fact is, it is illegal (or at least is
supposedly illegal) to discriminate in Canada on basis of
religion. The ad(s) that Boni was referring to should have been
brought before the Labour Board for action. The complainant would
likely have won.
RM> would go to say that you should be one too. Some include Church child
RM> care centers, Day Care centers etc. I'm not sure how that all works
RM> out but I *do* understand it. It's not that others are not good enough
RM> to work in one of those places however without believing in that same
RM> faith (no matter the faith at this point) they cannot represent the
RM> org as it's mission statement provides. As for the Law in these cases,
RM> it seems clear that there is some provision for variation.
So, what does the "org" represent, then? Discrimination against
non-Christians? In Ontario, it is now even illegal to to
discriminate against non-Catholic teachers who wish to teach in
the Catholic school system (since it, too, gets government funding
and is also partially supported by property taxes. Property
owners have a choice of directing their taxes either to the local
Public or the Seperate (Catholic) school board.) If a Hindu or
some such doesn't mind working around a bunch of fundamentalist
Christians, why should he legally be prevented from doing so?
Even if he doesn't believe in Jesus or YHWH per se, he can still
teach and embody basic principles of doing good to others.
Frankly, though, I fail to see what Christianity has to do with
truck driving, which was one of Boni's examples. Mind you, I
don't really care how you do things in the US; whatever way it's
done, I'm sure it's right for Americans. However, other people
prefer other ways, and the best different countries can hope for
is mutual respect of varying systems, even though that's fairly
hard to come by throughout human history.
Keep in mind that in Canada, there is no official seperation of
Church and State; however, the government has been trying since
the late 1960s, at least, to put its theory of multiculturalism
into practice (the "cultural mosaic" ideal, rather than the
"melting pot" ideal favoured by the US.) Granted, sometimes it
falls a bit short of its vaunted ideals, but things have been
getting better, and hopefully will continue to do so with minimal
conflict.
SA>or Christian-oriented only, as it would discriminate against a
SA>very large chunk of the population for no good reason at all.
SA>Which is as it should be.
RM> I think it was a Gallop pole done around 5 years ago that
RM> claimed that 80% of Americans claimed to be Christian... I don't know
Again, that's the US. Actually, your poll statistic got me
curious for some hard numbers, so I gave Stats Canada a call (on
their dime, heh) and tracked down catalogue number 93-319
(Religions in Canada). Since I'm in a good mood, I'll post all the
stats for you (though I'll try to format in a more sensible
manner, but the numbers will be transcribed as accurately as
humanly possible.) Maybe someone else'll be interested, too. The
catalogue (from the 1991 census) is available from Statistics
Canada for $40Cdn at 1-800-263-1136 or 1-416-973-6586 (Toronto.)
And don't feel special; I've got the Social Studies Librarian
doing an interlibrary search for me, so I can get ahold of the
complete Constitution of the USSR for Jesse - whups, phone. Heh.
What a coinkidink - it's in. Looks like I've got a
lot of transcribing ahead of me. ;)
Anyway, re: the religious breakdown - the majority here seems to
be Roman Catholic by about 3 million more than all Protestants
combined. I'm not really surprised, but I bet John Prewett will
just DIE. :)
SA>Keep in mind that I also disagree with the idea of quotas
SA>favouring anyone on the same bases. [The only quota I _would_
SA>endorse would be giving first shot for jobs to local welfare
SA>recipients.]
RM> Although I would enjoy welfare recipients getting a job I
RM> don't believe it is a 'qualification' for anything other then getting
RM> welfare. If they don't have marketable skills then they need to get
RM> some service oriented job until they can acquire some of those skills.
RM> Why should someone who is more qualified have to go on welfare so a
RM> less qualified person can come off?
Who said anything about kicking people out of their jobs? I was
referring to when new jobs open up. Besides, the reason most
aren't qualified for anything is because 1) they couldn't afford
college and, at least in my area subsidised courses are few and
far between, and difficult to get into (due to long waiting lists)
and 2) no one will hire them in the first place so they can GET
some qualifications/experience. How the hell is someone supposed
to get experience if they're passed up for even monkey work (ie,
fast food) in favour of some rich brat whose parents footed the bill
for his college degree? All this attitude does is ensure that capable
and willing folks who simply haven't gotten any breaks stay on welfare
for months and years, and eventually get so discouraged and
self-depreciatory that they simply give up and lose all hope in
themselves, and perhaps even turn to crime or drug-dealing or some
such, or simply spend their days drinking themselves out of their
misery. This is certainly not desirable, either for them, or for
society in general. However, with capitalism the way it is, and
companies insisting on putting "downsizing" before both societal
good and the service they themselves provide, and the recent
continental swing to the right making government jobs anathema,
there are bound to be increasing welfare rolls and rising
hopelessness whether anyone (disgruntled taxpayers included) likes
it or not.
This problem effects _everyone_ - a column in the local newspaper
on this subject a few weeks ago outlined the plight of an Albertan
History PhD who couldn't find work anywhere; he finally put an ad
in the paper, and got a job as a carpenter, for a mere one dollar
above the Ontario minimum wage (which at the moment is about
$7/hr. I don't know what it is in Alberta, but it's probably about
the same, given the crappy state of the $Cdn.) Considering that
he's likely over $40,000 in debt over a basically useless
education, that isn't so great for him (though someone in my
position would kill for an $8/hr full time job doing anything
). If you DO really run a construction company,
give a welfare guy a chance - to get _off_ of assistance. You'll
be helping your own pocketbook (in terms of the taxes he won't be
taking any longer) as well as him or her. Just because someone's
on assistance doesn't mean they can't learn to do a job, or aren't
willing to work. Hell, I'm just about ready to kiss the first
person to give me a 40 hour week on the feet (but that's as far as
I'm going! )
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... If thine enemy offend thee, give his kid a drum.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: Religions In Canada - Stats Can 1991
|Date: 20 Feb 96 17:19:01
EID:0bab 20548a60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312c662c
(This is going to be kind of long, folks. Bear with me)
From: Religions in Canada, Statistics Canada Census 1991 #93-319
20% Sample group
CANADA, NATIONWIDE
Catholic: 12,335,255 Protestant: 9,780,710
(Just to drive Prewett nuts, you know) :)
TOTAL POPULATION: 26,994,045
Roman Catholic: 12,203,620
Ukrainian Catholic: 128,390
Polish National Catholic Church: 950
Other Catholic: 2,285
Adventist: 52,360
Anglican: 2,188,115
Apostolic Christian: 8,500
Associated Gospel: 8,620
Baptist: 663,360
Brethren in Christ: 26,400
Charismatic Renewal: 2,560
Christadelphian: 3,376
Christian and Missionary Alliance: 59,235
Christian Assembly: 395
Christian Congregation: 6,595
Churches of Christ, Disciples: 17,845
Church of God: 12,050
Church of the Nazarene: 14,950
Doukhobors: 4,820
Evangelical Free Church: 9,170
Jehovah's Witnesses: 168,375
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints 93,890
Reorganised CoJCoL-DS 6,880
Lutheran: 636,210
Mennonite: 207,970
Hutterite: 21,495
Methodist Evangelical: 33,530
Free Methodist: 14,720
Methodist Episcopal: 655
Methodist n.o.s.: 23,600
Missionary Church: 11,405
Mission de l'Esprit Saint: 1,200
Moravian: 6,085
New Apostolic: 6,220
New Church: 1,425
Pentacostal: 436,435
People's Church: 305
Plymouth Brethren: 8,735
Presbyterian: 636,295
Quakers: 2,790
Christian Reformed Church: 84,685
Canadian Reformed Church: 14,725
Dutch Reformed Church: 4,405
Reformed Church of America: 3,515
Other Reformed: 11,690
Salvation Army: 112,345
Spiritualist: 3,735
Standard Church: 1,180
Unitarian: 16,535
United Church: 3,093,120
Vineyard Christian Fellowship: 1,200
Wesleyan: 11,255
Worldwide Church of God: 9,370
Protestant n.o.s. 628,945
Other Christian: 76,520
Non-Denominational: 32,005
Interdenominational: 3,095
Christian, n.o.s. 275,815
Antiochan Orthodox Christian: 3,310
Armenian Orthodox: 12,685
Coptic Orthodox: 5,020
Greek Orthodox: 231,635
Romanian Orthodox: 4,575
Russian Orthodox: 6,620
Serbian Orthodox: 9,795
Ukrainian Orthodox: 34,465
Orthodox n.o.s: 79,285
Jewish: 318,070
Baha'i: 14,730
Buddhist: 163,415
Confucian: 400
Hindu: 157,015
Islam: 253,260
Jains: 1,410
Shinto: 445
Sikh: 147,440
Taoist: 1,720
Zoroastrian: 3,190
Other Eastern Non-Christian: 4,425
Scientology: 1,220
Native Indian or Inuit: 10,840
New Age: 1,200
New Thought-Unity-Metaphysical: 4,605
Kabalarian: 115
Pagan: 5,530
Rastafarian: 460
Theosophical groups: 765
Satanism: 335
Other Para-Religious Groups: 3,085
Agnostic: 21,975
Atheist: 13,515
Free Thinker: 470
Humanist: 1,245
No Religion: 3,333,245
Other, non-religious: 15,920
Other, n.e.c. 10,635
(Note: I think by "No Religion" here, they're referring to what
people put on their census forms - ie, "No religion" rather than
"atheist" or "agnostic" or whatnot. "No Religion", in fact, is
what I put on mine. I was one of the lucky 20% who got to fill
out the Long Form with the million questions. Everyone else only
got a short, measly, form with just a couple of questions on it.
Losers. ).
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "It's the CBC, nobody's watching anyway" - Wayne & Schuster
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = Hardy's buttfuck
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:14:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef31e
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A1
PID: FM 2.02
MH> Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
JP> They act so hurt when that is pointed out to them.
mh> They deny it, until such time as they admit it. :)
You continue to buttfuck yourself. You must enjoy it, Mike.
~*~ . . . Fuck, I'll come right out and say it: I'd very much -love-
to put a woman over my knees and spank her round, soft, warm,
firm butt until it's blushing pink and stinging smartly.
There! I said it, and I'm -glad- I said it. It's 100% true.
- David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Mark staal the lump
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:16:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef31f
REPLY: 1:157/200 570201a6
PID: FM 2.02
FR> FM.OVROverlay error: Overlay file has been corruptedUnable to
FR> open overlay file Insufficient memory for overlaysU
FR> ^&G&Wxz&G&WFV* 73_ sv> FR> WWWWWW#X,X2X]
kdm> Fred, this is the second time I've seen this recently. What's up?
Assmodify's curse he threw at JJ Hitt bounced off of him and into my computer.
~*~ I believe that God does inflict His presense upon the earth.
- Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Door to door deity seller
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:18:11
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef320
REPLY: 1:157/200 5702022e
PID: FM 2.02
kdm> I don't get any myself. Instead, I get frat boys.
FR> Yeah? I wouldn't mind having some frat gurls coming over here.
kdm> Nor would I. They never seem to send them, though.
Yeah. I got a fundy JW at the door yesterday with a male boy he was molesting.
I know that not everyone got the word about me but it just seems that they
_never_ send me any females! Then I could talk to them about their subservient
domination.
~*~ Aw, c'mon. The Inquisition wasn't nearly as bad a George Bush.
- Martin Goldberg
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Laser tech
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:19:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef321
REPLY: 1:157/200 57020250
PID: FM 2.02
fr> It might be that what I saw was when they were used
fr> in VLBI observations using the Deep Space Network.
kdm> Ah . . . what? VLBI is used in radio telescopes.
I'll be Goatfucked! You're right! If I read less I might be able to keep
everything straight. }:-}
~*~ EVERYONE FROM THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. - Christopher Calabrese
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:21:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef322
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 312cded5
PID: FM 2.02
MG> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
am> Jim Jones was a pyschotic.
Jim Jones was a highly respected Christian who was known through America
for his soup kitchens, money collections, clothes collections, and all around
good works.
He was just as Christian as you are.
~*~ Santan uses them well, wouldn't you agree? - Chris Vetter
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:22:23
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef323
REPLY: 1:284/120 56039b46
PID: FM 2.02
> I have a book here titled "The Promise" Contemporary English Version -
> God's Words in Your Words. It was a Christmas gift from my husband, who
> was very thoughtful in remembering my great difficulty in understanding
> the King James Bible.
Amazing. Is this a version of the mythologies specifically dumbed-down
for subservient Christian woman?
~*~ Must go, Elvis wants to use the phone. - Paul Feonic
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:22:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef324
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 12d2e4c5
PID: FM 2.02
> Waco Rememberance will start 1pm Saturday March 2, 1996 in Austin, Texas
> on the south side of the Texas State Capital at 11th and Congress.
Are you clowns going to blow up another federal building this year?
~*~ The Cosmic Star Goat told us you would not provide evidence.
-- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: One Staal (Under his god. And moveing.)
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:24:27
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef325
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I'm gonna have to install some no-fundy strips and some fundy-zappers.
ns> The zappers are better. The strips don't kill then instantly, so
ns> they're free to annoy for a while. Good thing you aren't putting
ns> up Fundy Paper . . . a score or two of Fundies stuck to gummed
ns> paper screaming `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!' over and over is no
ns> picnic. You really have to crank up the radio and then your
ns> neighbors complain. Better a quick death, I think . . .
Well, I could gag the poor fools and make them watch Carl Sagan's "Cosmos"
several times straight through until they stop being fundies.
~*~ your hearts and flowers crap is going to have to wait - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:31:37
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef326
PID: FM 2.02
TL> PROHIBITS THE USE OF INDECENT SPEECH ONLINE AND ANOTHER THAT
TL> BARS DISCUSSION OF ABORTION ON THE INTERNET. THE PRESIDENT,
FR> Usually TLP posts these wild extremist anti-government
FR> "pronouncements" about Waco, Texas, or Ruby Ridge. He and his little
FR> band parade back and forth in front of government offices calling for
FR> the arrests of the people inside. I wouldn't mind seeing
FR> Janet Reno tried for treason against the State and I certainly would
ns> Isn't the reason they don't leave just that they believe they have
ns> ownership or entitlement to this country? Yokels. Go figure.
They are the great unwashed disenfranchised who have no power over the say
of their government and feel powerless to control their own lives. They
wish to overthrow the class structure and put themselves up in its stead.
To accomplish this lunacy, they contrive huge conspiracies and tyrannies
that will allow them to justify their anti-government rhetoric without having
to explain why they just don't pack up and leave.
ns> I occassionally applaud extremists, especially if I've had
ns> a rotten day (just for amusement factor I like the occassional
ns> ex-employed going on a postal spree with his boss)
Amusing entertainment unless women and children are killed.
ns> but there's some seriously fried neurons in the bunch if
ns> they think things like Oklahoma City, etc., get them much sympathy.
The lunatic posted his annual "remembering Waco" ranting. I wonder if we're
going to get another building blown up and another two hundred men, women,
children, and babies murdered by these nuts.
ns> Whenever I see the bumper-sticker that says "The Government can
ns> have my gun when they can pry it from my dead limp fingers," I
ns> usually cheer and say, "all right!" If they hear, they think I'm
ns> supporting them, whereas I'm just a big fan of evolution-in-action.
ns> };)
Rilly. Anyone who thinks like that shouldn't have guns in the first place.
They should be secreting them away in wooden crates burried in the high
desert above the water table after coating them in cosmoline and sealing
them in tin cans. }:-}
~*~ A "higher level of biblical argument" is rather like a "more
sophisticated barroom brawl". - Simon Ewins
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:33:34
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef327
PID: FM 2.02
jb> I just posted a 3 parter to Mike Hardy that came from FoF itself from
jb> last September (they don't have anything newer on their web site) about
jb> the Women's Conference in Beijing. I do hope he will read it all. FoF
I saw it. And kept it. Lovely work!
jb> The other is so ridiculous I can't even see ANYONE...even
jb> Prewett or Staal... being able to pronounce it credible.
jb> About 180 women 'fleeing forced abortions in China' who
jb> SAILED (this is the critical part) from China and went
jb> aground IN NEW YORK HARBOR.
Those nuts will just pull a deity out of their ass and claim it helped them
make it to New York.
~*~ "Crap! I rolled a nine! Now I godda fight
the sugar-plum fairies!" - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal in india - 4 of 4
|Date: 21 Feb 96 23:43:17
EID:2e04 2055bd60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312c663c
A lone voice in the wilderness, Fredric mournfully howled out "@S"
FR> SWe've got Japan coming up in two months, London in the forseeable
FR> future, and Australia after that. The most foreign country will
FR> probably be Australia. }:-}
sa> :) Heh. Already been there.
FR> Yeah but did you have some old man tell you about him eating chilled
FR> monkey brains while you were trying to eat? }:-}
Eurgh. No. It's bad enough I read about that in detail once in an
expose book written by a former animal smuggler.
sa> And to London, in fact. :)
FR> To visit the queen?
Well, we got to visit the grounds of Buckingham Palace to watch
the changing of the guard close up, but alas - the Queen was out
galavanting somewhere at the time. :(
FR> Yeah? In fact the first time I went to Japan with PK,
we
FR> hired a consultant simply to stand between PK and myself so I wouldn't
FR> kill him. The consultant ended up being quite the loud-mouthed
FR> American and I was very embarrassed.
sa> Oh, I can do that - and I assure you, I'm not a "loud-mouthed
sa> American". Hell, I'd go the whole time without saying a word. :)
FR> The best kind of consultant. }:-}
:) Hee. :)
sa> I wonder how quickly I can learn to programme .. Sure you
sa> don't need someone who can take dictation, make extremely strong
sa> coffee, and other secretarial type mundane gofer/Man Friday stuff?
sa> Honestly, though, I'm no programmer, unfortunately. The last
sa> programme I wrote was in BASIC, in high school, well over a
sa> decade ago. :(
FR> You know, in fact we hired someone for pretty much that -- to run the
FR> office because we were getting swamped with shipping, typeing,
FR> answering the telephone and stuff. It's a damn shame that I couldn't
FR> have gotten someone I know into that position, alas.
Argh. Well, if the job's ever open again, let me know. For
reference, I can type about 80 wpm (I think; it's just an
estimate) and I have about 3 years experience (pt/occasional)
doing medical dictation for a local surgeon (from home - I'm my
own supervisor. I'm simply expected to get things done within a
week. Well, I'll be honest here. I sort of inherited the job
- my mother started to let me do it when she got overworked with
other jobs, and he doesn't really know who's doing it - he
apparently can't tell the difference between my work, and my
mother's, and she has over 25 years experince. He thinks she's
still doing it; in fact, the cheques are in her name. I've never
even met the guy.)
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... Maybe God is a kid playing SimUniverse.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal of india - 4 of 4
|Date: 21 Feb 96 23:50:18
EID:49e0 2055be40
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312c663d
A lone voice in the wilderness, Fredric mournfully howled out "@S"
FR> hardware grunt at work thought they were "Satanic," though.
sa> ROFL! Great! :) Out of curiosity, did he detail why he thought so?
:)
FR> The "...used the latest in medical diagnostics... And this rune
FR> means..." My impression, though, is that he doesn't like
FR> it when people make animals talk (English, I mean.) My impression is
FR> that he feels that's bringing the cartoonist "as one with the gods."
ROFL! I've heard of fundies not liking that sort of thing; this
is the first time I've come across it this close-hand, though. :)
And BTW - tell him we ARE gods, as far as the characters and the
world they move in are concerned, anyway. You'd think they'd also
bitch about making HUMAN characters do our bidding as well.
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... "You can take my pain and love it, but you won't know how I live."
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR...
|Date: 21 Feb 96 23:53:19
EID:e9d8 2055bea0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312c663e
> JP> Bet you like electricity and indoor plumbing.
> But I HATE hydro and water bills.
SM> Umm, no hablamos Canadiano, Sue!! :-)
SM> Hydro AND water??!!?????
Sure. "Hydro" is short for "hydro-electricity", but it refers to
electricity from any source now. Traditionally in Canada,
hyrdo-electric has been the most common source of electricity,
anyway, and most provincial power authorities seem to have it in
their names (Ontario Hydro, Hydro Quebec, etc.)
SM> Also: Were such a hero to accomplish that, there's a
SM> better-than-average chance that there would be no __human race__ when
SM> he got back home.
Oh, likely.
SM> Think just one moment. DaVinci discovering Relativity, heavy-metal
SM> fission power, and applying that to the decadence of mid-1500's
SM> Italy........
SM> [shudder]
Hehehehe. :) Imagine nuclear fission being discovered EARLIER?
"Bring out the Holy Nuke of Antioch!!"
> Besides, I was mainly referring to "never heard of the United
> States". I envy those "brown men in mud huts" in that way. :P
SM> Interesting, considering the fact that you have more brown men living
SM> in mud huts in your country than we do in ours..... [g,d,r]
Unfortunately. They're called Indian Reservations, and I consider
them a nasty form of segregation that should be done away with
like yesterday.
SM> And all too many of them speak Fwench...... :-)
:)
--Wolfie
To look into the eyes of the wolf is to see your soul - just be sure something
you want to view is there.
... Barney and Baby Bop at Jurassic Park = A happy Velociraptor.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:25:05
EID:77eb 20566320
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 5da92de4
REPLY: 1:215/130 0014922f
On 21 Feb 96, Elliott Finesse wrote:
EF> Hahahahahaha! That's pretty funny. Read Numbers 31 and then come back
EF> and explain why your loving god directed the genocidal slaughter of
EF> about
EF> 60,000 to 100,000 captured women, children, and babies. Tell us what
EF> the children did to deserve such a fate.
Although it's an excellent idea to fight mindless creationism and
perhaps even mindless belief-systems, it is NOT a good idea to make the
same mistakes that the Fundies make (quoting selectively and with
incorrect interpretation).
For this example, consider the actual words of Numbers 31, in the RSV in
my possession:
"The LORD said to Moses, 'Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites;
afterward you shall be gathered to your people.'"
Note that in reading on _after_ that, all the actions taken were taken
at the instructions of _Moses_. God does not again speak until 31:25,
in which no hint of the slaughter is mentioned. (This is about
distribution of the booty.)
Hence although your task is probably to good purpose (leading the Fundie
away from his own false interpretation), it isn't a good thing, to
misuse the text in exactly the same way the Fundie does.
You said "read Numbers 31 and then come back and explain why your loving
god directed the genocidal slaughter of about 60,000 to 100,000 captured
women, children, and babies."
I suggest that _you_ read it, and note that the "genocidal slaughter"
was clearly directed by _Moses_, not by God, Who only said "avenge
the people of Israel...." (According to my RSV, at least.)
Eh? Do you wish to reduce the impact of your arguments by MIS-
understanding or misreading what is actually said in the portion of the
text that you are using as example?
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... This message was written using 100% recycled electrons.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Evolution: Fact&Theory [1]
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:39:58
EID:7548 205664e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e5fa6059
REPLY: 1:215/130 0014924c
On 21 Feb 96, Elliott Finesse wrote:
EF> In a message dated 02-13-96 Preston Simpson wrote to Eric Hendrix:
EF> > EH> For example, science says there could be ghosts/super-natural
EF> bein > EH> But, they can't *prove* it. Any attempt I know of has
EF> failed
EF> > EH> miserably. In my opinion, that's because God doesn't want
EF> humans > EH> poking and probing into the spiritual world, which the
EF> Bible says > EH> exists, for their own protection.
EF> What?? For their "own protection"? You've got to be kidding. If your
EF> god was concerned about "protecting" his children why would he allow
EF> such
EF> things as earthquakes to kill millions of people?
I note presence of "your god" in the above. Does this indicate that you
disagree with the Judeo-Christian, or the Christian-Fundie, image-of-
god, _specifically_? Can there be, iyho, some other image-of-god that
would be more acceptable to you?
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... Your logic is flawed; evacuate your premises immediately.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:42:49
EID:773a 20566540
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 f6c88648
REPLY: 1:215/130 00149255
On 21 Feb 96, Elliott Finesse wrote:
EF> Or consider a fly landing on a table top. The fly occupies a surface
EF> area of 1 mm^2. The table top is 1 metre x 1 metre, or 1,000,000
Presuming a standard housefly, no housefly is only one square millimeter
in table-surface-covering area. (More like 30 or 40 mm^2; 8mm long by 5
wide.)
Imprecision in argument appears to be a fault of _both_ sides of this
argument. If your task is to "educate" the Fundie out of his ludicrous
belief-system (a fool's errand in the first place), it behooves you to
be extremely and dedicatedly (if not 'deadly'), accurate in _your_
side's argument.
EF> > ... There are few atheists on deathbeds.
EF> Really? How few, exactly?
EF> > Those few are true fools.
EF> I see. They are fools because they demand objective empirical evidence
EF> for their beliefs? Whereas the non-fool bases his beliefs on faith in
EF> what he hopes and wishes were true? Or do you mean that anyone who
EF> disagrees with you regarding your God belief is a fool?
It's possible for one to be atheistic on the deathbed _because_ the
person has found no rational, reasonable, accurate or reliable data
while alive, to support the belief in a god. This, in a manner similar
to your noted examples (false reasoning) above, does not mean that a)
there isn't one, or b) that He won't "save" his/her ass anyway....
(*grin*)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... Worry is the interest paid on trouble before it becomes due.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Many gods
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:52:44
EID:8774 20566680
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 60b9df5e
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31294168
On 20 Feb 96, David Worrell wrote:
MH> post that you place no faith in Christ. I am totally dedicated to Him.
MH> Did you have a comment or a question I can help you with?
DW> Sure do. Got any evidence that your God exists outside the
DW> imagination?
Got a scientific-empirical explanation for "imagination" (which is an
effect of a large quantum object (brain))?
(*grin*) Is "imagimation" _real_? If so, then is a god which exists
"only" within it, also "real?"
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... "There can be only One." --Connor McLeod
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:57:34
EID:971d 20566720
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 0324e86d
REPLY: 3:711/933 31279cd2
On 18 Feb 96, Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote:
EH> Faith doesn't necessarily come from proof, but a feeling in the
EH> heart (symbolically, not physically!).
AG> Might I suggest that faith is not a feeling but a clear revelation of
AG> the revealed Word of God, or understanding. Faith is the mind of
AG> Christ is us.
Might one suggest that faith is a talent, an ability, a _function_ of
the brain, quantum-connected to the god-image you choose to use? That
is, faith is a pipeline, an attachment to the mind of the Universe.
Attaching it to anything else is foolish.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... Worry is the interest paid on trouble before it becomes due.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 107/411 941 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:00:32
EID:97f7 20566800
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 028fc9af
REPLY: 3:711/933 3127b6f6
On 18 Feb 96, Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote:
AG> Why should anyone trust you? And who cares for your reasons? You have
AG> not been honest and straightforward with God is any of your letters
AG> and have not gone to your Bible to prove these things.
....Combined with:
AG> Kind regards,
Anybody detect a bit of insincerity here?
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... This message was written using 100% recycled electrons.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:01:36
EID:97f7 20566820
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 b352713f
REPLY: 3:711/933 3127b7ee
On 18 Feb 96, Anthony Grigor-Scott wrote:
AS> Quite frankly, Anthony, I think you are ignoring the reality--the
AS> Holocaust...
AG> There was no such thing, least wise not in so much as killing 6
AG> million Jews.
AS> and all it implies...
AG> All it implies is a lucrative lie.
AS> and instead are embracing a fantasy...in the Illuminati.
Ooops. Sorry for responding. I forgot you were a victim of the
holocaust-conspiracy lunacy. Please ignore my other messages to you.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... ICR receptionist == non-sequitary...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Ben Guitard
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:03:10
EID:7654 20566860
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 463f8e87
REPLY: 1:252/107 3129f24d
On 20 Feb 96, Ben Guitard wrote:
MB> That's bullshit! If god had not put evil in the world, there would
MB> not be any people who were evildoers, as evil would not be an option.
MB> Zappo! There goes your argument. Instead of thinking in terms of
MB> removing those who participate in the possible, think in terms of
MB> evil being an impossibility, just as flying without wings in an
MB> impossibility.
BG> Just a comment here, it's impossible to live in a world with no evil!
BG> It's like trying to use a see-saw with only one person! Besides what
BG> is evil? No one can agree on what exactly evil is anyway!
"Evil" is deliberate contra-action to the "proper operation of the
Universe." "Sin" is non-deliberate same thing. "Sin" is "mistake."
"Evil" is persistence in and/or repetition of the mistake in spite of
having discovered it WAS a mistake.
(*grin*)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... (Music swells...) On a clear disk, you can seek forever...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:07:39
EID:53d0 205668e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d48053c2
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca15
On 19 Feb 96, John Prewett wrote:
JP> ps- One might bear in mind that I've spent thousands of hours and
JP> thousands of dollars distributing a message to my fellow citizens
JP> that [though they now think it is crazy] I hope and believe will
JP> eventually prove to be very beneficial to those of my fellow
JP> citizens who ultimately believe that message.
Odd, isn't it, that others, of directly oppositional persuasion, might
say exactly the same thing? Me, for example, spending whatever-buck$ it
takes to run an anti-creationism messaging system for five years now....
You suffer the approbation of the opposition, no matter _which_ side
you're on, but oddly enough _you_ (no matter which side you're on) think
you are the only one who is right, and the other side is always wrong.
Something illogical about that.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... If God is real, we will not find Him 'outside' of reality.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:11:19
EID:b908 20566960
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 afdc9875
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca1a
On 19 Feb 96, John Prewett wrote:
JP> Nobody owes anybody a job.
JH> Everyone is due fair treatment. Firing someone
JH> for "no reason at all" is not fair treatment.
JP> Sure it's fair. If the employer is "bad",
JP> then he won't be able to keep "good" employees,
JP> and "good" people will shun his business.
JP> Therefore, due to competition with a "good" employer,
JP> the "bad" business owner will eventuall go out of business.
JP> This is called "free enterprise" at work.
Sure as heck sounds like the essence of _evolution_ to _me_.....
JP> It's part of what made America the most free and
JP> properous nation the world had ever seen.
Interesting. A nation supposedly founded on Christian principles,
claims its ascendancy derives from the power of free enterprise-- a
totally "survival of the fittest"-oriented attitude.
JP> It's also fair because anyone that don't
JP> like it can start their own business.
JH> But I don't expect a Christian to grasp such concepts...
JP> I just don't agree with anti-freedom, enterprise strangling,
JP> poverty-creating c/o/m/m/u/n/i/s/t liberal concepts.
Nor with evolution, I'll warrant, in spite of lovin' the heck out of the
American historical business free-enterprise application of evolution's
principle mechanism (selection)....
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... (Music swells...) On a clear disk, you can seek forever...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:16:13
EID:aba8 20566a00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 03777529
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 11804301
On 21 Feb 96, Steve Rose wrote:
SR> J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
SR> JJH>> The claim made for the film is that it made in 1947, this is
SR> JJH>> patently false as the microphone seen in the film is a Shure
SR> JJH>> Brothers model that wasn't marketed until 1954.
SR> I have heard at least two other glaring technical-prop
SR> JJH> Hmmm... I know about the telephone cord, what is the other one?
SR> The phone cord was the most damaging. But in addition to the
SR> screw-ups such as the hammer and microphone...they had a clock on the
SR> wall which at first was thought to be of that time frame...but closer
SR> re-examination by manufacturer's records revealed it to be from a
SR> period made six years *after* '47.
SR> Chocked FULL of detail failures! Much like those babble
SR> inconsistencies. ;)
Do you have sources for these "malaprops?" The mike, the phone cord,
and the clock?
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... "Who is this who darkens council with words without knowledge?" Job
38
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:18:04
EID:8132 20566a40
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 f300e9e4
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892A0E27
On 20 Feb 96, Dan Ceppa wrote:
AH> Afraid not - according to the myth, God was in heaven while Jesus
AH> (allegedly also God) was on earth. That makes TWO gods, and Isaiah
45:5
AH> says there's only one.
KM> I and my Father are one. That makes ONE God.
DC> So, just who was your godling praying to? Some false god in heaven?
Telling blow. Fast, short, and succinct. I've used that one many
times. Funny, I can't remember ever getting an argument back....
(One _could_ pick "and" out of "I and my Father are one," instead of
"are one," hence indicating the plurality right inside the quote itself,
but that'd probably just confuse things more....)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... WARNING! Evolution may be hazardous to your Ego.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ATHEIST HYPOCRISY
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:24:42
EID:b09e 20566b00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6aa75aed
On 18 Feb 96, AL SCHROEDER wrote:
SA> I haven't seen atheists claiming that the act of using shareware
SA> beyond cutoff date is wrong. What I've seen is atheists pointing
SA> out that doing so is a violation of the fundy commandment which
SA> deals with theft. The only double standard is therefor, that of
SA> the fundy who bootlegs.
MH> Then you admit, along with Brian Kolacy, that there is no reason for
MH> atheists to be moral, other than their personal choice to be.
MH> Two confirmations of what I've always thought (and what I and other
MH> Christians have been publicly berated for daring to say.) I'll note
MH> that down.
AS> Me too.
Atheists can use the reality they're in, to determine their morality.
That is, the Universe is as it is, it has rules that we have uncovered,
and it's the biggest thing, with the hardest and least forgiving rules,
that we know of, so one can use one's best-guess at its "proper
operating rules" as moral guidelines, if one chooses.
Of course, _both_ sides "choose" their moral authorities. Whether it's
the actuality of the hard-and-fast rules the Universe uses, or the God
of the Fundies, it's still a 'choice' on the part of the human
concerned, to submit or not submit to the authority chosen.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... Oh, mama don' 'llow no li'l nonfalsifiables runnin' roun' heah...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:29:03
EID:c6dd 20566ba0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e4fbd50b
On 18 Feb 96, AL SCHROEDER wrote:
AS> MG>> Do you have any evidence for design other than this wild
AS> MG>> assed guess by some scientist?
AS> How many scientists do we need?
MG> Only one....with evidence.
AS> Question, Marty. And this is a serious question. I have stated many
AS> times that I don't hold the anthropic coincidences as conclusive
AS> evidence, but many instances of contributory evidence.
You suffer the same kind of approbation I do, with my Quantum God
Hypothesis, in that there's LOTS of "contributory," but little or no
"definitive" evidence to use in your arguments.
Nasty position, isn't it, when arguing with atheistic ignorami who will
accept nothing less than God Himself standing right in front of them in
person and working physics-violating miracle after physics-violating
miracle while they use every instrument available to test and re-test
every effect until they satisfy themselves that they have nowhere left
to run.
"Contributory" evidence will get you nowhere with that kind of a nay-
sayer.
AS> Suppose some process made bones as susceptible to corruption as
AS> flesh. So that we would have no fossil record to validate evolution.
AS> Now suppose Darwin THEN came along with a logical explanation of why
AS> species appear or disappear, with evolution, but could not produce
a
AS> fossil record to
AS> validate such.
AS> Do you think there is any way he could have convinced the
AS> scientific world of the truth of evolution? Could he have done it
AS> with the sheer
AS> logic alone, with the argument of passing generations adapting to
AS> conditions and the fittest surviving?
Probably, since the scientific world would have to have had an
explanatory mechanism in the genes (which they could see and work with
as vis-a-vis a Mendel), and they definitely could have observed at least
bacteria and fruit flies "demonstrating" that mechanism in their labs.
AS> Just curious. (Oh, lest I be misunderstood, the world I am
AS> postulating would be like ours in every way except for the fossil
AS> record. I AM
AS> postulating a world where the lifeforms are formed by straightforward
AS> evolution.)
He could have started, and later generations continued, an empirical
experiment based on his idea. That experiment would sooner or later (in
100 years or 100,000), "prove out" his hypothesis (or not, as the case
may be). In fact, that experiment is today a good idea, even -with- the
fossil record. We need to do _something_ --at least to start doing
something-- to get rid of the constant creationist yammering about "not
observed."
Someone, some altruistic science-lover with a huge amount of buck$,
needs to start and insure continuance of an experiment in selection,
using some quick-breeding mammal with the capacity for change. Say, a
few square miles of hamster habitat, in which they're forced to struggle
for food by using primarily their paws, and in which larger, more
flexible and capable paws are advantageous? Or perhaps one in which
birds are used, and required to use their wings excessively?
In any case, an experiment could be designed _without_ deliberate gene
manipulation, and _with_ a strong selection directionality, that would
be intended to run for _hundreds_ of years at peak adaptation-pressure.
The day would come when something arose in there that didn't look or act
at _all_ like the original inhabitants, and that ought to put paid to
creationism's anti-evolution arguments once and for all....
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... He _did_ it, and then He _hid_ it!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:44:54
EID:eed9 20566d80
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 60b3cc56
REPLY: 1:207/212 a9ce8ab4
On 20 Feb 96, Karen Davis wrote:
KD> On (19 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> And God can't send "his" word simultaneously to everywhere there are
KD> people to combat this?
KM> That's why he told us to "Go into the world and preach the Gospel".
KD> Why didn't HE just arrange for it to be done without his fallible
KD> humans? And a message so connected with the culture of the Middle
KD> East...
There is a way, with quantum mechanics and nonlocality, to posit a God
that would be _incapable_ of certain physics-violating activities, yet
be able to probabilistically interfere with living human minds (via
their perfectly physical quantum-object brains) such that the effects
_attributed_to_ (not actually physically done by) the various god-images
now extant on the planet might be input to those brains as images,
dreams, visions, and "religious mystic perceptions."
Maybe "HE" didn't just arrange miraculous thingies because "HE"
_couldn't_. Note that behind _every_ religious stance, at the root of
every religious precept and history, there is somewhere back there in
time, ONE "Mystic" who started it all.... That does not necessarily
imply that everything about the religion is false or purely-human-
originated, but it does imply that at least one human brain had to be
meddled with more or less directly, by this "quantum mind," IF the
religion is not 100% false.
KD> That's what your Bible is. Period.
So are the Mahabarata, the Platform Scriptures, the Elder Eddas, the
Koran, the Sephir Yetzirah, and every other religious document on the
planet. But this does not eliminate the possibility of a "Universal
Mind" operating with the physical Universe as-a-whole as its Brain.
It only implies that whatever has caused the effect (called "religious"
or "mystic" perception) is unlikely to be physically evident or
scientifically testable.
The Bible is also a book of history, in the limited sense that _some_ of
its content is confirmable by outside scientific (archaeological)
authorities. Not all; perhaps not even much, but some. So, "That's
what your Bible is" may be correct, but "Period." is not.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
... Find God? Why? Is he missing?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: LES WILCOX
|Sub: Who cares? [1]
|Date: 22 Feb 96 07:28:56
EID:96eb 20563b80
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 7123f1e0
REPLY: 1:147/48 38557584
On (21 Feb 96) LES WILCOX wrote to MARILYN BURGE...
LW> Marilyn
LW> How can so many people be wrong in just one echo?
You're a real piece of work. First you insult me and my
philosophical peers, ....
LW> Tell ya what.. Lets change the subject.. Here's one for ya.
then you want to abruptly change the
subject before we can answer your attack, ....
.... then you want to start in on the Mormons, ....
LW> MORMONISM HAS ANOTHER JESUS (II COR. 11:4)
.... via your scripture, which you spout for over 100 lines, like a
busted shitpipe.
Get a life.
... A hangover is the wrath of grapes.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 07:39:04
EID:da5d 20563ce0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 fffed2de
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892A0E35
On (20 Feb 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Michael Hardy...
-> On 02-18-96 18:45, Michael Hardy got back to Marilyn Burge
MB> There's a book written by a fellow who has two Ph.D's -- one in
MB> law, the other in Jungian psychology. He wrote a wonderful book
MH> He sounds like a condescending twit.
DC> Have your read his book? Better yet, have you ever met the
DC> author in person?
DC> Doesn't your book say, "judge not, lest thee be judged"?
Methinks there's a condescending twit around here, but it ain't
Edmund D. Cohen.
... Darned Unitarians burned a question mark on my lawn.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Mike Roberts
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: God'S Word
|Date: 22 Feb 96 10:53:00
EID:b2c2 205656a0
MSGID: fidonet#1:3645/100.0 312c915c
MB>On (19 Feb 96) Jesse Jones wrote to Ryan Shaw...
MB> JJ> Quoting RYAN SHAW to JESSE JONES on 02-14-96
MB> JJ> RS> Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Alan Hess:
MB> RS> JJ> As frustrating as I know the idiocy evidenced in BJ's
MB> RS> JJ> post is, to suggest that King James deliberately
MB> RS> JJ> mistranscribed or omitted anything is ridiculous. Got
MB> RS> JJ> *anything* to back that up?
MB> JJ> RS> It's a basic fact outlined in most Western Civilization
MB> JJ> RS> courses.
MB> JJ> I have many texts, having majored in history. Care to give me
MB> JJ> one cite?
MB> JJ> RS> Have you taken one of those lately?
MB> JJ> Not since 1971, actually. I have, however, read and studied
MB> JJ> extensively since then about the Bible, from all
MB> JJ> perspectives, and I have never encountered any charge of
MB> JJ> deliberate error in the KJV.
MB>Oh, come ON, Jesse! What rock have you been hiding under? The bit
MB>about drinking poison in an add-on. Most scholars believe that the
MB>book of John has many verses cobbled onto the beginning of it, and
MB>that it actually starts somewhere in chapter two. The voice from
MB>the clouds that told the congregation that Jesus was the Son of
MB>God at his baptism has the words "this day" cobbled onto the
MB>quotation.
MB>The cases of added text are numerous and night unto undebatable in
MB>many cases.
If I may interject:
My Bible actually suggests in some instances that a verse may not have
been part of the original manuscript. In some cases verses are left out
and added at the bottom of the page with an explanation of why it may
not fit.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted!
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|From: Mike Roberts
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: A Tale Of 2 Cities...
|Date: 22 Feb 96 11:25:01
EID:a81f 20565b20
MSGID: fidonet#1:3645/100.0 312c98dd
RM>-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
RM>Good morning, Karen.
RM> RM> isn't one of them. Now, rabbits and cud, or Jesus ancestry, or
RM>which
RM> RM> was created first, men or plants, or ... like I said, there are
RM>lots of
RM> RM> them.
RM>KD> Rabbits DO chew their cud, just not exactly in the same way as
RM>cows.
RM>KD> They eat their first morning's droppings. [I know... yuck,
RM>but....]
RM>Children, do not try this yourselves!
RM>This is disgusting. And it raises a number of questions: Does shit
RM>count
RM>as cud? Exactly what was the hebrew word translated as cud in that
RM>passage, anyway? Is this insanity limited to the rodent clan? Who on
RM>earth spends their time studying these things? And how does one go
RM>about
RM>getting a job like that?
RM>KD> I've had this confirmed by experts in the things.
RM>Experts in morning dropping eating? I hope the pay is good .
Hey, My Maltese dog does that. Not really sure why I just told
you that. :>
* OLX 2.1 TD * It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a
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|From: Mike Roberts
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 22 Feb 96 11:59:02
EID:6c52 20565f60
MSGID: fidonet#1:3645/100.0 312ca0d6
JO>A person recently told me that the early beginnings of the christian
JO>ritual of holy comminuion were rooted in canabilism. This person
JO>claimed that if you ate the flesh and drank the blood of a person then
JO>you would aquire the attributes of that person.
JO>Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
JO>Regards,
JO>Jim
Jim,
I think I remember hearing something like that in reference to
early beleifs about aquiring the attributes of the animals. They would
eat the stronger animals to aquire strength and so on. I don't know,
could be.
Mike
* OLX 2.1 TD * Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: suff'rin
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:47:00
EID:d75d 20569de0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B439F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> For a perfectly holy God to forgive sin, something has to give. God
MH> chose to bear the burden himself for those who would allow him to.
KD> Huh? A perfectly holy god can do whatever he pleases, including simply
KD> forgive without a "burden."
I don't think you really understand what I'm talking about. I don't
think you understand the concept of holiness at all. I don't mean this
as a put-down, but we're very obviously speaking entirely different
languages.
To suggest that a perfectly holy God can just ignore sin is like saying
that you can pour black ink on white sugar without making a stain.
MH> It is an act of extreme mercy and love. Nothing circular about it.
KD> Then why can't he do something we do every day?
If someone killed your mother, then mockingly demanded you forgive
him just before he killed your father, would you do it?
If you would, I suggest it's not forgiveness but indulgence. It ignores
sin, rather than forgiving it.
On the other hand, if he kills your mother and then begs your
forgiveness, and you know he really is sorry for what he's done, could
you forgive him without sacrificing the part of yourself that desires
to see him punished?
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:54:00
EID:70f2 20569ec0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
KD> They shouldn't have any more than I do. However, they already have
KD> this country going down the tubes, it's time to give non believers a
KD> chance to prove Christians are all idiots.
I tried several times to come up with a flippant or humorous rejoinder
to this, but I just can't. It's unmitigated ignorant bigotry on your
part, and there's nothing funny about it. It's absolutely untrue, and
motivated by raw hatred.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:56:00
EID:44f8 20569f00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting John Prewett to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
JP>
JP> They act so hurt when that is pointed out to them.
They deny it, until such time as they admit it. :)
... NO CARRIER... A naval aviator's worst nightmare ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Discussion
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:57:00
EID:4e6a 20569f20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I'm willng to discuss anything. Unless you've been posting under
MH> another name, I haven't seen you here before. Yes, many people here
MM> It's been about three years since I gave this echo any kind of
MM> attention. I have been reading most of the posts for about the last
MM> three months to see if there were any topics, or posters whom held my
MM> interest. Sooooo, what area of religious thought would you like to
MM> discuss. I really prefer to stay away from discussing the "I'm right,
MM> you're wrong" type of argument.
MH> issues. They prefer flames to debate. But there are a few that make
MH> it worth sticking around.
Christian doctrine, New Testament scholarship, social issues ... I just
drift into and out of threads as they catch my interest.
MM> Hmmmmmm could you tell me which posters you tend to find worth
MM> reading. I could then browse for those and skip the flamers.
Nah, you don't need me telling you how to think about who. Just read
whatever looks interesting, and you'll soon enough decide for yourself
who you can talk with reasonably and who you can't.
... You can write a good country song if you have an ex to grind.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: points
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:59:00
EID:f816 20569f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> In the case of the flood, you're right. In the other two cases,
MH> though, your evidence that the claims are untrue amounts to
MH> "is not."
MG> This is a killer. You don't believe the bible's account of the flood,
MG> but you believe that jesus was born to a virgin and that a dead man
got
MG> up and walked away? This is getting rich.
Er ... I've been on record here on all three issues for two years now,
Martin. Weren't you paying attention?
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: U2
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:00:00
EID:dabd 2056a000
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Michael Hardy <=-
SA> You'll have a hard time getting ANYONE to believe that people CHOOSE
SA> to burn in eternal hellfire. He/it would need to place them there.
SA> That's not love.
MH> From "The First Time" by U2
MH> My father is a rich man
MH> He wears a rich man's clothes
MH> He gave me the keys to his kingdom coming
MH> Gave me a cup of gold
MH> He said "I have many mansions
MH> And there are many rooms to see."
MH> But I left by the back door
MH> And I threw away the key
RS> While I'm impressed that you are now quoting U2, I am amazed at how
RS> far off you are in your interpretation of `The First Time', the Zooropa
RS> album, and ZooTV in general.
How else would you interpret the song? And I'm mystified how you know
my interpretation of the album and the ZooTV concept in general, seeing
as I never said word one about them.
The interpretation of the song seems pretty obvious: The lover is the
Holy Spirit, the brother is Jesus and the father is God the Father. I
have three good reasons for thinking so:
1. It's self-evident.
2. Bono agrees with me. Go get the book "U2: At The Edge Of The World"
by Bill Flanagan and check out what Bono has to say about the song on
page 227.
3. Bono, Edge and Larry Mullen Jr. are Christians and have been as
long as U2 has existed, although they have been more outspoken about it
in the past than lately. Bono says that Adam Clayton is too, though I
don't know if Adam has said.
They have written explicitly Christian lyrics before, so there's no
reason to think "The First Time" isn't also. Examples:
"40" is simply the 40th Psalm set to music.
"Sunday Bloody Sunday" includes the line: "And the battle's just
begun/To claim the victory Jesus won." (The first line occurs early in
the song with a different second line. It's repeated toward the end
and the line about Jesus substituted.)
"Drowning Man" includes lyrics that are adapted, with little change,
from Isaiah 40:31.
"Pride" includes a reference to Jesus: "One man betrayed with a kiss."
"I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" says in the last verse:
I believe in the Kingdom come
When all the colors will bleed into one
Bleed into one
But yes I'm still running
You broke the bonds and you loosed the chains
You carried the cross and my shame
All my shame
You know I believe it
"When Love Comes To Town" also refers to Christ:
I was there when they crucified my Lord
I held the scabbard while the soldier drew his sword
I rolled the dice as they pierced his side
But I've seen love conquer the great divide
Jesus shows up by name in "One." On Zooropa, in addition to "The
First Time," "The Wanderer" is explictly spiritual, even though it's
about a man who is conflicted. Jesus "and his mother" also come up in
"Some Days Are Better Than Others."
In light of all that, I think my interpretation of "The First Time" is
quite reasonable.
Do you still disagree?
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:14:00
EID:b022 2056b1c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
> There are separate words for all of the creatures named, BUT they all
> come under the heading of "uwph," which is translated "birds" in most
> English translations. In fact, though, the word doesn't demand to be
> translated "bird." It really does mean "things that fly," and is
> distinguished from insects because there's another word for insect.
>
> We might say "robins, blue jays and eagles are birds." The Hebrews
> could add "bat" to that list because the collective noun they would u
> wasn't restricted to birds.
EF> Is this an admission that the Bible is a man-made document? Why didn't
EF> your god point out that a bat most assuredly is distinct, and
EF> obviously so?
Elliot, the collective noun simply operates on a different system than
ours does. Ostriches are ratites and vireos are neo-tropical migratory
songbirds, but we call them both birds. Your question makes as much
sense as asking "Why doesn't someone point out that ostriches and
vireos most assuredly are distinct, and obviously so?"
Just as jetliners and helicopters are tremendously different from
one another but still aircraft, or as whales and ants are tremendously
different, but still organisms, so bats and hoopoes are
tremendously different but still *uwph* in the Hebrew language. It's
simply a matter of how specific the collective noun is, and evidently,
*uwph* is less specific than "bird," just as "organism" is less
specific than "insect" and "insect" is less specific than "ant" and
"ant" is less specific than "carpenter ant."
EF> Look I don't care what you need to believe - with one glaring
EF> exception: you and other theists desire to force the precepts of your
EF> religious dogma on non-believers. Your advocacy of prohibiting
EF> abortion by way of secular legislation / criminal penalties is a case
EF> in point. This makes the validity of your beliefs an issue.
My opposition to abortion is based on the principle of protecting
innocent life, which most reasonable people agree on; the argument is
over what constitutes personhood, not whether persons deserve
protection from those who would do them harm.
... Be a hero, save a whale. Save a baby, go to jail.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:29:00
EID:ca17 2056a3a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
> MH> In fact, I don't have a cut-and-dried explanation for why God is
> MH> portrayed in the Old Testament as occasionally championing the
> MH> destruction of entire cities, including the presumably innocent
> MH> children.
EF> Mike, sorry, but you don't have an explanation period.
Yes, I do. It just isn't unambiguous and simplistic. It is that God
punishes those guilty of evil. If God did indeed order the killing of
truly innocent children along with the guilty adults, then I would
suppose that the ending of their physical life was not the judgment,
but what happens after. If so, then I believe the innocent children
who, unfortunately, lost their physical lives, gain eternal life in
heaven and thus aren't punished at all.
EF> On the other hand, that this seems to trouble you, I find commendable.
EF> Your reaction is in stark contrast to most all of your theological
EF> compatriots who seem to judge the morality of an act not on the act
EF> itself, but upon _who_ commits it.
No, I do insist that God's decisions are fair and just. I'm just not
100 percent sure that everything attributed to God's command in the
Bible is really God's command. I'm also not saying it isn't. I don't
know and I reserve judgment.
MH>I do believe that God will prove to be right and right
> MH> no matter what the answer turns out to be
EF> Perhaps. But as a purely hypothetical question, what would your
EF> reaction be if the truth turned out to be otherwise? I realize you
EF> don't believe that to be the case. I am simply asking how you would
EF> react if you determined that your god _did_ punish the innocent? Since
EF> I have accepted your hypothesis (i.e.: that your god exists) for the
EF> sake of the discussion, I don't believe it unfair for you to do
EF> likewise in order to answer my question.
I don't believe it is possible, even hypothetically. I believe that
right and wrong are determined by who God is -- not by capricious or
arbitrary choices God makes, but by his intrinsic nature. And because
we are created in his image, our sense of justice should jibe with
his. If it doesn't, it's because we are tainted by our own sin, not
because God has changed.
That's why I find it so foolish for people to speak of God's attitude
toward those who "disagree" with him, as if God were just another guy
with an opinion.
To presume to judge God is commit an enormous sin of pride.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:37:00
EID:7d0a 2056a4a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
> AM> Okay, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I am up to the
> AM> challenge! Let me define my contention. That from what can be
> AM> extrapolated from scientific facts, there is a probability of us
> AM> being here by design thats at least as, or more compelling than u
> AM> being here by natural impersonal causes.
>
> You might as well not have bothered. First I, then Al Schroeder, trie
> this exact tack. You could show that the odds of a life-sustaining
> universe existing by pure luck are 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
> 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
> 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
> 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
> 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
> 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
> 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
> 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
> 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0
> and the response would still be "So?"
EF> Uh, Mike, this isn't precisely true. First, you have not and can not
EF> "show" what you claim here to be true. That is because this is a
EF> faulty application of statistics. It is analogous to telling a lottery
EF> winner that, since the odds of 20 million to 1 against him are so
EF> great he could not possibly have won. The 5 million dollar check he
EF> has in his possession must therefore have come from God.
EF> Or consider a fly landing on a table top. The fly occupies a surface
EF> area of 1 mm^2. The table top is 1 metre x 1 metre, or 1,000,000
EF> mm^2. Thus the odds against the fly landing where he did are a million
EF> to one, making every landing of a fly a miracle!
EF> Hey, I'm on a roll: I just played bridge, and got dealt the following
EF> hand: A 7 3 of Spades, K J 5 of Hearts, Q 10 7 4 2 of Diamonds, 6 3
of
EF> Clubs. Do you know what the odds against that are? 635,013,559,600 to
EF> one against (!) - therefore God intervened?
EF> As faulty as the reasoning behind my examples are, they are superior
EF> to yours in that the numbers given are based on demonstrably correct
EF> and knowable factors (it is in my application of statistical
EF> probability, after the fact, that makes them faulty), something your
EF> number does not and could not have.
We do know, however, that certain physical properties of the universe
could not have deviated by infinitesimally small factors, or no
universe would exist at all. To suppose that it is the way it is
because it is ... which is essentially what your argument comes down to
... is to dodge the issue.
Take your lottery example. Sure, after someone has won it, the chances
of that person winning are 1 in 1 -- it is a fait acompli. However, ten
minutes before the drawing, would you have been willing to bet your
very life on Eliza Kibbles N. Bitz of Far Rockaway, NJ winning?
If Eliza does indeed win, it isn't inappropriate for her to consider
that she won against the odds. There are also millions of people who
had the same odds who did not win.
If you are staking your life on the odds of *somebody* winning, you
have a good chance of eating breakfast the next morning. If you are
staking your life on Eliza winning, you have a 1/20,000,000 chance of
frying those eggs.
Similarly, the odds that a big bang governed by nothing but luck will
produce some arrangement of matter is pretty good. The odds that it
will produce an arrangement of matter capable of sustaining *any* kind
of life are effectively zero.
(Some people say "It's not governed by luck; it's governed by the laws
of physics." But that simply pushes the discussion back one level --
then we have to wonder at how the laws of physics just happen to be
those that will produce a life-sustaining universe out of a big bang.)
But like all apologetics, this is a Magic Eye picture -- you either get
it or you don't, and if you don't, no amount of discussion or prodding
is going to help.
... Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: tru fuls
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:46:00
EID:9408 2056a5c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
EF> On a final note, do you see the irony of your statement here, risking
EF> hellfire (see Matthew 5:22) in order to show disdain for someone else
EF> risking hellfire?
I'm not calling them fools on my own authority; just reporting what
God's word says. (Psalms 14:1 and 53:1.)
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:48:00
EID:ac0a 2056a600
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
> DC> No you don't. You have gospels written by unkown authors that
> DC> claim to be witnesses. In fact, one of them states plainly that
> DC> the author was _not_ a witness and another one was clearly writte
> DC> by a person that never even saw the messiah.
>
> 1. Paul's earliest letters were written around a.d. 50.
>
> 2. They were written to communities of believers that had already bee
> established for some time.
>
> 3. They contain a fully developed divine Christology.
EF> Really? Paul never talks about Jesus's parents, or the virgin birth,
EF> or Bethlehem. He never mentions Nazareth, never refers to JC as the
EF> "Son of Man" (as is common in the Gospels), doesn't relate a single
EF> miracle performed by JC, doesn't mention _any_ of the 12 apostles by
EF> name, doesn't speak a word about the trial, and almost never quotes
JC
EF> (strange, since there are many places in his teachings where he could
EF> and should have invoked JC's teachings yet doesn't)
You're wrong about the last point. As for the others, I never said he
did mention those things. Most likely, the people he was writing to
already knew about them and he didn't need to repeat it. But the
letters do contain a fully developed divine Christology -- as I said --
in that Paul presents Jesus as the divine Son of God. Whether he
reiterates the details or not, he explictily and consistently proclaims
the main point -- that Jesus was God in human flesh who died to save
people from the consequences of their sins.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: treatise
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:51:00
EID:8cfa 2056a660
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43AA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>However, given the snide tone of this post and others, it's obvious
MH>you made up your mind and nailed it shut long ago. Therefore, I'm not
MH>going to waste any significant amount of *my* time arguing with you
MH>about it.
EF> Does this mean that you, contrary-wise have an open mind, amenable to
EF> change in regard to your religious beliefs? What evidence would
EF> convince you to relinquish your theism?
I don't know. However, my beliefs are not set in stone, and whenever I
am given sufficient reason to change them, I do.
... A Mexican won the lottery. It was a million to Juan.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Religion Debate?
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:17:00
EID:9520 2056b220
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43AB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
> MH> You do realize that in saying Jesus didn't exist, you're contrad
> MH> 99 percent of all historians? Even those who insist he wasn't di
> MH> don't deny he existed.
>
> I said as he is portrayed in the Bible. And I believe your statement i
> incorrect. Any historian who said so has been duped.
>
> MH> I hope you have a pretty good reason to make that claim.
EF> Funny. I was going to say the very same thing in regard to your 99%
of
EF> historians claim.
I don't know of any current historians who have examined the claims
about Jesus who don't conclude that he was, at the very least, a real
person. They may insist he was just a man who was turned into a
legend, but they aver he existed. Some historians in the 19th century
did deny his very existence, but they have been largely repudiated.
If you know of any historian working today who would insist that no
such person existed at all, please tell me who and summarize his or her
reasons for thinking so.
... Behaviorial Research: Pulling habits out of rats.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Luke
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:54:00
EID:9150 2056a6c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43AC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
> The evidence that Luke wrote the gospel which bears his name is that >
EF> it has always been thought he did,
EF> Two points: first, this is not evidence. To cite it as such
EF> constitutes a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad numeram: that
a
EF> number of people believe a thing does not equate with correctness.
It is evidence that there was no dispute over Luke's authorship among
those closest to the writing of the gospel. If the author was unknown,
there likely would have been arguments over who wrote it. There is no
evidence that there were such arguments about *any* of the canonical
gospels.
Secondly, there is no record of anyone named Luke having any prominent
position in the early church, except for writing a gospel and Acts.
While ancient documents were sometimes attributed to other people, they
were attributed to prominent figures whose name would lend the writing
credibility. There would be no point in attributing it falsely to
someone that no one had ever heard of.
EF> Second, I doubt you can find a Biblical scholar who would agree with
EF> you. Certainly the consensus of Bible scholars is at odds with your
EF> claim.
I can find a whole raft of them. I will list a dozen for you,
with credentials, if you're truly interested. (I'm not going to
bother unless you are.)
Liberal scholars would disagree, but back when I was an agnostic, I
studied the arguments of both liberal scholars and conservative
scholars, and found that the conservatives -- to my surprise --
generally had better arguments and less reliance on assumptions. A
conservative Bible scholar would argue that Luke wrote the gospel that
bears his name for several reasons, some of which I outlined above. All
of the arguments are objectively true and verifiable. There is no
assumption required at all. (We're not arguing at this point about
whether the content is true, but whether the traditional authorship is
correct.)
A liberal scholar would say "We know the stories about Jesus's miracles
are myths, and myths take time to develop, so the book must have been
written long after Jesus died, and so the church just pinned a name on
it." All of which is supposition, assumption, unsupported assertion,
and which ignores the Pauline evidence which I mentioned in another
post.
And as usual, I'm willing to make you a challenge: Find a liberal Bible
scholar who makes a case against Luke's authorship whose argument
doesn't come down to essentially what I just outlined. In fact, I'll be
generous: Find me a liberal Bible scholar who disputes the traditonal
authorship of *any* of the four canonical gospels who makes a better
argument than what I outlined.
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: dates
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:05:00
EID:e05f 2056a8a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43AD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I would date all three synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) before
MH> a.d. 60 -- for reasons which I can detail if you like -- with John
MH> being an unknown. Whenever John was written, though, I think it was
MH> written by an eyewitness or the student of an eyewitness -- again
MH>for reasons I can detail if you want.
MH> I have my opinion -- based on analyzing the arguments used by
MH>various scholars to defend their positions -- and I can defend my
MH>opinion. I can't, however, prove I'm right, and neither can anyone
MH>else. That's why your saying that a given gospel must have been
MH>written in a given year because some authority says so demonstrates
MH>that you really haven't thought the matter through.
BK> No. It just shows that a more *reputable*, and current, authority
BK> disagrees with your statements. Now, I'm much more liable to agree
BK> with a respected authority, then with somone as biased on the matter
BK> as you;).
Apparently, you define "reputable" as someone who agrees with you. Why
is a Bible scholar, educated at a credible school and holding a
position at a credible seminary or university, but who agrees with me
less reputable than one of equal credential who agrees with you?
And you call *me* "biased."
... I am Mother of Borg ... no dessert until your broccoli is assimilated.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: suff'rin
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:19:00
EID:ce27 2056b260
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43AE
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> MH> But it's not. What's significant is WHAT God did -- taking all
MH> MH> the sin of everyone who ever threw themselves on God's mercy,
MH> MH> or ever would, into his holy, righteous self, and expiating it
MH> MH> -- taking it on himself so that we could be free of it.
MH> KD> Huh? This is the worst circular logic I have ever heard. If you
MH> KD> need to forgive someone, you do so. No sacrifice is necessary.
MH> For a perfectly holy God to forgive sin, something has to give. God
MH> chose to bear the burden himself for those who would allow him to.
MH> It is an act of extreme mercy and love. Nothing circular about it.
BK> Only partially merciful, it seems. Why didn't Jesus die for *all*
BK> sins?
He did. But forgiveness is a two-way street. As long as you arrogantly
think you've done nothing to be forgiven for, you aren't going to
accept forgiveness. And like any gift, forgiveness is useless to you
until you accept it.
MH> I don't think of it as *punishment* which God poured out on Jesus. I
MH> think of it rather as God taking sin into himself and purging it.
MH>God suffered in doing this because sin to holiness is like acid on
MH> the skin. But the suffering was a consequence of his opening the
MH>door to grace, not gratuitous pain.
BK> Why did Jesus feel forsaken on the cross, then? Must have been
BK> feeling some pain, perhaps?
He was. But it wasn't *gratuitous* pain -- it was necessary, not
inflicted capriciously.
Do you not read English well?
(That was a gratuitous insult -- understand yet?)
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Re: CENSUS
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:10:00
EID:0ef5 2056a940
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43AF
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> And, I'm not INSISTING that it's true. I fully admit the story of
MH>the virgin birth could be wholly or partly mythical. I just don't
MH>see any point in insisting it MUST be.
BK> What about the story of the resurrection? Could that be wholly
BK> mythical? What about all the stories of "miracles". Could they be
BK> completely mythical? Why are you so ready to disassociate yourself
BK> with the virgin birth idea? *I* know...it must be more *allegory*...
I'm not ready to disassociate myself from it. I believe it is true; but
I also believe it is not a necessary belief. If another Christian
chooses to see it as myth, I don't think it makes much difference. I
also know that, like everything else, it can't be proven to an
unwilling doubter.
... NO CARRIER... A naval aviator's worst nightmare ...
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:12:00
EID:575d 2056a980
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> BK> But Michael, Ronald Reagan is a well known, well documented
MH> BK> person in an age of Enlightenment. Jesus, in his day, was not
MH> BK> well known at all...When we add the fact that Paul started the
MH> BK> religion in a place *other* than where Jesus lived, where *no
MH> BK> one* had heard of him, in a time where such supernatural events
MH> BK> were fairly commonplace, and your analogy fails miserably...Try
MH> BK> again?
MH> Evidence, please, that Paul "started" Christianity, as opposed to
MH> helping spread what already existed?
BK> Well, there doesn't seem to be a tremendous amount of Christians in
BK> the area where the stories allegedly took place. Sounds to me like
no
BK> one would beleive the stories Paul was telling, because they were
BK> esily denied by the locals, so he had to move to a new location to
BK> sell his snake oil;).
Are you unaware of the Jerusalem Church, which grew up -- as the name
implies -- in Jerusalem, the same city where Jesus was crucified? And
well before Paul's conversion, too.
... To live without passion is to begin to die.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: seedy CD
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:13:00
EID:4c75 2056a9a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Oosterman to Michael Hardy <=-
DO> Jerk. BTW, I'm listening to the new CD as I type. So far it's the
DO> whoop!
I hope that means it's good. :)
My faves are tracks 1-14. The rest of it isn't so hot. :)
... On Dr. McCoy's tombstone: "I'm dead, Jim."
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:15:00
EID:c4fe 2056a9e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> JP> Would you believe there are people
MH> JP> so dumb they think God is dead.
MH> JP> In spite of evidence.
MH>
MH> KDM> You have evidence? Real evidence? Non-biblical evidence?
MH>What?
MH> Why "non-biblical?" Whether you want to admit it or not, the gospels
MH> and letters of Paul *are* historical documents from the time. The
MH>fact that they were written by believers in the cause would not
MH> disqualify them as historical source documents if they were about
MH>any other person or subject. They would simply need to be read with
MH>the author's bias in mind.
KDM> Mike, I don't discount them as historical documents. AFAIK, Jesus
KDM> existed. He was a good man, but not a god.
However, that's not what the gospels and letters of Paul say about him.
If you accept them as historical documents, but reject most of what
they say, you have to explain how the other stuff got in there.
Especially since it had so little time. (Jesus was crucified around
a.d. 33. Paul wrote Galatians around a.d. 48. Paul wrote to existing
Christian communities he had helped establish. Paul had stayed in
Jerusalem learning from Peter and James for a few years between his
conversion and his missionary travels. The Jerusalem church had existed
for some years before Saul's conversion. Add it all up, and you have
very little time for a "good man" to become a legendary God AND be
accepted as such by people who lived in the very same place where these
events allegedly happened, who may have known Jesus personally.)
... On Dr. McCoy's tombstone: "I'm dead, Jim."
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: information
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:19:00
EID:5b9d 2056aa60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Porn objectifies the opposite sex.
JH> I've never understood this objection. What's the big deal about a
JH> medium treating people as objects? Art does it. Sports do it. Drama
JH> does it. Politics does it. Advertising and the popular media do it.
And to an extent, it's wrong in those contexts too. But that's not the
sum of my point. Porn objectifies people, but it also reduces the sex
act to simple mechanics. The emotional angle is ignored, let alone the
spiritual.
People are *not* merely animals, even though we share some
characteristics with animals. Porn debases humanity, the dignity of the
human being.
I say this from experience. I have had -- and still do have to some
extent, though I fight it -- an interest in porn. I have seen plenty of
hardcore, and it stimulates and repels me at the same time.
I have seen cumshots where two or three men ejaculate all over a
woman's face and breasts. It is sickeningly animalistic. There is no
soul to it. There is not even emotion to it. The people need not even
know one another's names -- and they are performing the most intimate
human interaction for an audience, people they don't know and who don't
know them. It makes a mockery of intimacy.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: firmament
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:21:00
EID:0a39 2056b2a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I don't think Genesis is geocentric. It is concerned with
MH> the creation of the Earth, yes, but it never says -- nor
MH> even implies -- that Earth is the center of the universe.
JH> What is firmament?
Hebrew *raqiya*, meaning the sky.
Your point?
... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: double standard alert
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:32:00
EID:4605 2056ac00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Michael Hardy <=-
SA>> (As an aside, I'd laugh like a hyaena if it were found Swaggart
SA>> contracted AIDS from his little plaything. It would just be such
SA>> poetic justice ..)
MH> If a Christian expressed glee over the prospect of someone
MH> contracting AIDS, the response would be .... what?
DW> Still looking vainly for a double standard, Knee-Jerk? "SA" doesn't
DW> belong to a religion that demands its followers love their fellow man
DW> as themselves. Christians do.
Hmmm ... that's five total admissions that atheists have no morals, but
you've admitted it twice.
Yeah, I guess it still counts. Five admissions so far. :)
Keep digging, Davey. :)
... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:33:00
EID:f211 2056ac20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Michael Hardy <=-
MB> There's a book written by a fellow who has two Ph.D's -- one in
MB> law, the other in Jungian psychology. He wrote a wonderful book
MH> He sounds like a condescending twit.
DC> Have your read his book? Better yet, have you ever met the
DC> author in person?
Did you read my whole post? If so, your editing of it is a deliberate
deception. I specifically said that my opinion was based on Marilyn's
report, and nothing more. That means (to any intelligent person) that
if the author's actual presentation differs from her portrayal of it,
the opinion is inoperative.
... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:55:00
EID:8e26 2056aee0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to Karen Davis <=-
KD>> Then why are there still Jews?
KM>> Because they are still his chosen people.
KD> But if the evidence for Christ was sooo convincing, they should have
all
KD> converted.
They weren't, because many had become legalistic and dogmatic, so that
they didn't recognize God when he stood before them -- because he
didn't fit their preconceived notions. That was exactly what Jesus
criticized them for -- rejecting the truth in favor of their own pet
ideas.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those
sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together,
as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."
Matthew 23:37
... NO CARRIER... A naval aviator's worst nightmare ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:00:00
EID:d5aa 2056b000
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Speaking of which...I am posting from a different board, but still
AS> within Nashville. If you see this, please respond.
RH> Hey Al! You weren't posting to me, but I saw it. First thing I've
RH> seen from you in AGES!!
I'm still not, Al. :(
... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:03:00
EID:981d 2056b060
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to J.j. Hitt <=-
MB> FoF was the group of scum behind that amendment to the
MB> Colorado Constitution that got declared unconstitutional in
MB> the courts. Nice, loving group of rejects from the KKK.
JH> Really?
JH> I was under the impression that amendment was "Pastor" Pete
JH> Peters' baby. (Peters, a Coloradan, is a widely recognized
JH> leader of the "Christian Identity" movement.)
MB> If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.
I don't see you offering an apology to the people of Focus on the
Family, whom your error resulted in your slandering.
... Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Question
|Date: 22 Feb 96 22:08:00
EID:b5d5 2056b100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892B43BA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to All <=-
GR> I've asked this question before. And I'm going to ask it again.
GR> Are there any Black users of this echo?
GR> Or is this echo the conversvative version of "Whiteland"?
What are you, some kind of racist?
Why should it matter?
We're all colored people of some shade or other.
... Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Ad kuiken
|Date: 21 Feb 96 22:06:09
EID:a1ff 2055b0c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 57020151
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JUDITH BANDSMA spoke thusly to ALL :
JB>We just received word that Leo's cousin, Ad Kuiken, died yesterday.
JB>Ad had Muscular Dystrophy and was originally not expected to live to
JB>be a teenager. He made it to age 39 and was living in an apartment in
JB>Amersfoort, an assisted living situation.
I'm sorry. Were you close?
JB>Ad died at his computer, answering mail. His roommate/caretaker sent
JB>the mail packet before calling for help. Way to go, Ad.
Well, when I go, that's one of the ways I'd like to go.
... Die smiling, life is too important to take seriously.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Al schroeder
|Date: 21 Feb 96 22:07:10
EID:9d10 2055b0e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 57020162
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
J.J. HITT spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
JH> A>> What does JJ know of throwing curses?
JH>
JH> DW> More than you do, apparently. Should we paint a target on
JH> DW> JJ's forehead to make sure you hit him next time?
JH>
JH> Shouldn't we ask Dan A. Post what the significance of a bullseye
JH> on the forehead is first? I wouldn't want anyone to think I'd
JH> had my cash drawer removed.
ROFL!!!
... CAUTION! Do Not Look Into Laser With Remaining Eye.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 21 Feb 96 22:13:11
EID:cd60 2055b1a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 57020173
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to MARILYN BURGE:
MH> MB> long way from 200-some-odd, and Styx isn't bragging about having
MH> MB> an absolute frame of reference for his morals, as the fundies
MH> MB> do.
MH> A third admission that atheists have no reason to be moral.
MH>
MH> Thank you.
Why? It's true. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, though.
MH> MB> That's not to say, of course, that it would be morally proper,
MH> MB> just that I don't see a double standard.
MH>
MH> Of course you don't. You're part of it.
Which double standard?
... Are you a good witch, or are you a bad witch?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 21 Feb 96 22:15:12
EID:cd60 2055b1e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 57020184
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to RICHARD MORRISON:
MH> RM> Doesn't seem surprising does it.
MH>
MH> Of course not. Since I posted this, four atheists have explained the
MH> difference: Atheists don't claim to adhere to a moral code, they
MH> explained.
Ah, no, some of us do. We just don't have to.
MH> Which is, of course, an admission that atheists have no morals save
MH> those which they invent for themselves. :)
So?
... "Miiiiiiinnnnnniiiiiimmmmmmmmuuuummmm WAGE Heyah! [Whipcrack]" - TMBG
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 21 Feb 96 22:31:13
EID:2e8c 2055b3e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 57020195
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to ANDREW MASTEN:
MH> AM> Who can say when, or if, it will come to fruition? The passion,
MH> AM> and personal invective they use suggest there arguments are more
MH> AM> of a salve to thier conscience.
MH>
MH> "as faith based?" I'd say it's far more faith-based ... a blind
MH>faith in chance and time because they refuse to accept the
MH>possibility of God.
I don't know about anyone else, but I accept the possibility of a god.
I just don't believe in any.
MH> At heart, I am convinced, the objection is usually moral rather than
MH> scientific. The existence of a God means that our choices matter and
MH> that morality is not based in human opinion. That is anathema to
MH>many.
Yes, true. But what will you say if it turns out that god really enjoys
killing and pain, and he punishes you for not doing enough of it?
... "Inconceivable!" - Vinzinni
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Mark staal the lump
|Date: 22 Feb 96 16:41:14
EID:d3e0 20568520
MSGID: 1:157/200 570201a6
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
FREDRIC RICE spoke thusly to MARK STAAL:
FR>Yes, I would place you about 14 years old as well, Jim.
FR>
FR>SA> Why don't you tell us more signs...you are obviously
FR>sa> speaking from personal experience.
FR>
FR>js> .....Buuurrrrr, I thought I felt a cold wind in
FR>here.....FRIGID....AIRE!
FR>Your hatred of women indicates a deep-seated lack of self worth, Jim.
FR>
FR>~*~
FR> your wrong, the Bible is
FR> FM.OVROverlay error: Overlay file has been corruptedUnable to
FR>open overlay file Insufficient memory for overlaysU
FR> ^&G&Wxz&G&WFV* 73_
FR> sv
FR> WWWWWW#X,X2X]
Fred, this is the second time I've seen this recently. What's up?
... Computer possessed! Re-boot with EXOR.SYS-- from Demonic Software
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 157/200 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Jason Ballard
|Sub: Paganistic followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 16:54:15
EID:27cd 205686c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 570201b7
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JASON BALLARD spoke thusly to MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN:
JB> MM> Yes, there were atrocities committed under the name of religion,
JB> MM> and they unfortunately continue in this current time. However,
JB> MM> if WE are to end such depravity, we can not return the same
JB> MM> measure as is dealt. Do we want to become that thing we
JB> MM> despise?
JB> Atrocities... Atrocities? It was murder that they comitted and
JB>in the end there will be vengeance.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Vengeance on all those who killed
JB>our kind,
"Our kind?" Are you a gothic vampire nut? Or do you just have MPD?
JB>those who killed our ways, our beliefs who stole all we had
JB>and strip us of everything.
Yippty shit. Find me a people who haven't had this done to them.
JB>We have nothing anymore, the only one we
JB>pay debt to anymore is your so called god.
What is this we business? Try using the singular pronoun, OK? It makes
you look much less silly.
JB>But what about my god, the
JB>earth, the trees and animals.
They're laughing at you too.
JB>The gaian theory, Wotan and Ulik. Those
JB>were my gods, and they seek vengeance.
Hint: Posting while high makes you look stupid.
... Remain seated until this message comes to a complete stop.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Redacted stories
|Date: 22 Feb 96 16:57:16
EID:1409 20568720
MSGID: 1:157/200 570201c8
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ROB BURCHAM spoke thusly to KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT:
RB>KW> You sound like Bear. He gets these little thingies that he slips
RB>KW> over the barrel of his pens to improve his grip.
RB>
RB>Oh, you said 'pens'. Never mind.
"'His throbing pens?' 'You don't want to be around when he starts
writing with that!'" - Friends
... "Maytag" is my middle name; I'm an agitator.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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PATH: 157/200 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Xxx
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:49:17
EID:3e3a 20569620
MSGID: 1:157/200 570201d9
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to JOHN PREWETT:
MH> Here's a thought you might appreciate:
MH>
MH> "(Secularists) also get passionate about passion. They have to prove
MH> themselves, prove that they aren't what they really are: spiritual
MH> wimps. So they substitute sexual passion for religious passion, and
MH> become so fanatical about their addiction to it that they practice,
MH> justify and encourage anything, from sodomy to baby-killing, to
MH> preserve this 'right.'"
Yes, that would certainly explain while I'm still a virgin, and have
sworn to stay that way until I get married, if/when that happens.
... There are no OS/2 viruses. Nobody writes _ANYTHING_ for OS/2.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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PATH: 157/200 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Cashless society
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:53:18
EID:75f8 205696a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 570201ea
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
DAVID WORRELL spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
DW> KM> I liked JJ's response, ("It means the coffee's ready"), and his
DW> KM> response to that ("I don't understand...") myself.
DW>
DW>I don't ever think I've seen a case of sarcasm impairment as severe
DW>as Don's before.
What do you expect? It requires intelligence to understand when
sacrasm's being used.
DW>Have you seen some of the "biting" replies I've been
DW>getting lately?
They couldn't make a biting reply if all they had to do was upload the
messages.
DW>Considering the fact that both the moderators of
DW>CONSPRCY don't like that kind of thing, I'm hoping to get a few of
DW>those nuts' feeds cut. :)
You realize, of course, that that will just contribute to their
paranoid fantasies.
... "Oook." - The Librarian
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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PATH: 157/200 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:54:19
EID:ee2c 205696c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 570201fb
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
DAVID WORRELL spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
DW> KM> That's a remarkably stupid attitude, IMO. If/when I get
DW> KM> married, I want to marry a friend, an equal, not a puppet.
DW>
DW>There's a lot to be said for puppets, though.
But you can't blow up puppets!
... and this is one of me and Elvis INSIDE the UFO . . .
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: churches
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:57:20
EID:3e87 20569720
MSGID: 1:157/200 5702020c
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> KDM> I'm still trying to figure out something to do in honor of
PS> KDM> Valentine's Day . . . snapping and sniping, for example.
PS>
PS>I had a rotten St. Valentine's, though things are looking up.
I'm rather depressed about that. Turns out that someone in the
cwru.general newsgroup was trying to find someone to go on an anti-date
with (wear black, glare at the other diners, and discuss (loudly, of
course) divorce statistics). Alas, I had somehow unsubscribed to the
group (fun with Netscape 2.0), and missed it. There's always next year.
... Are you a good witch, or are you a bad witch?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Coincidence seven
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:58:21
EID:aa77 20569740
MSGID: 1:157/200 5702021d
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
PS> KDM> But I will be, someday. With work, luck, and the Grace of Goat
PS> KDM> I'll be designing these things in ten years or less.
PS>
PS>If you can get a budget. If you can find a patron. If anybody cares.
PS>That's the problem with space travel--not enough people want it for
PS>it to go anywhere at the moment.
Yeah, I know. A guy can dream, can't he?
Arthur C. Clarke (inventor of the geosynchronous commsat) may be our
saviour, though.
... I threw caution to the wind. It threw it back. I ducked.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Door to door deity seller
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:59:22
EID:17fb 20569760
MSGID: 1:157/200 5702022e
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
FREDRIC RICE spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
FR>kdm> I don't get any myself. Instead, I get frat boys.
FR>
FR>Yeah? I wouldn't mind having some frat gurls coming over here.
Nor would I. They never seem to send them, though.
... Never mind the star, just get those fucking camels off the lawn!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Kenny is back into his de
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:21:23
EID:ed35 20569aa0
MSGID: 1:157/200 5702023f
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
KENNETH MCABEE spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
KM> KDM> I have a simple question, and I want an answer, Ken: When did
KM> KDM> English first become a language?
KM>
KM>Kevin,
KM> I've got a simple question for you, which language are we
KM>speaking here? Kenneth Mcabee
English. But that doesn't answer my question: When did English (or a
recognizable ancestor) become a language? According to Britannica On-
Line:
"The vernacular spoken and written in England from about 1100 to about
1500, the descendant of the Old English language and the ancestor of
Modern English.
The history of Middle English is often divided into three periods: (1)
Early Middle English, from about 1100 to about 1250, during which the
Old English system of writing was still in use; (2) the Central Middle
English period from about 1250 to about 1400, which was marked by the
gradual formation of literary dialects, the use of an orthography
greatly influenced by the Anglo-Norman writing system, the loss of
pronunciation of final unaccented -e, and the borrowing of large
numbers of Anglo-Norman words; the period was especially marked by the
rise of the London dialect, in the hands of such writers as John Gower
and Geoffrey Chaucer; and (3) Late Middle English, from about 1400 to
about 1500, which was marked by the spread of the London literary
dialect and the gradual cleavage between the Scottish dialect and the
other northern dialects. During this period the basic lines of
inflection as they appear in Modern English were first established.
Among the chief characteristic differences between Old and Middle
English were the substitution of natural gender in Middle English for
grammatical gender and the loss of the old system of declensions in the
noun and adjective and, largely, in the pronoun."
Now, Chaucer utilized a recognizable ancestor of the English language,
so we shall say that English became a language in 1400, even though it
goes much further back. How does that sound? 1400? Or do you prefer
a different year? If so, back it up.
How many words do you think modern English contained, then?
Later, we'll talk about the word "filk," as well as how people
communicated before 700 BCE.
Sooner or later, Ken, you will admit that "fundy" is a word.
... +++ @#%$ NO CARRIER. . . but I've got 2 destroyers and a frigate. .
.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Laser tech
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:46:24
EID:81b7 20569dc0
MSGID: 1:157/200 57020250
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
FREDRIC RICE spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
FR>FR> Hubble already is unnecessary. The CCD telecopes in Hawii are
FR>FR> capable of Hubble-level deep-space astronomy. The software which
FR>FR> runs on the data does exclude atmospheric distortion entirely and
FR>FR> the CCD scopes are often coupled to the DSN to provide extreme
FR>FR> VLBI astronomy.
FR>
FR>kdm> You sure about this? I know the Armed Forces have some
FR>kdm> groundbased telescopes that make the Hubble (visually) look
FR>kdm> like a toy, but I wasn't aware the new telescopes on Hawaii
FR>kdm> were working that well.
FR>
FR>I believe that telescope power is measured in terms of resolution
FR>ability.
That's one of the ways, yes. Another is light gathering power and
another magnification.
FR>If that's the case then the new type of telecops in the
FR>Hawaian Island chain are equal to the task of Hubble.
Theoretically, yes. But while the theoretical resolution goes as the
inverse of the diameter (and in this case, smaller is better), Earth-
based observing is generally limited to 1 or 2 seconds of arc, due to
atmospheric turbulence. The Hubble gets far better resolution then
almost any ground-based telescope (I'll go into that in a second) does,
even though it has worse *theoretical* resolution, simply because it is
in outer space.
Now, it is possible to combat the effect of air turbulence (aka seeing)
by using adaptive optics. This means you take a huge number of small
mirrors, put a servo behind each one, and then use a powerful computer
to adjust for the affects of seeing by adjusting the mirror so that the
image of a known star looks correct. This process works extremely well,
but is also extremely expensive. To the best of my knowledge, the only
people that possess this type of telescope is the US Armed Forces; they
use it to look at enemy satellites.
It might be
FR>that what I saw was when they were used in VLBI observations using
FR>the Deep Space Network.
Ah . . . what? VLBI is used in radio telescopes. The resolution you
can get with VLBI is *far* better then you can with anything else, but,
to the best of my knowledge, they've never done that with visual
observation (to that extent, at least).
... OK, I'm confused. More than normal, that is.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: The unofficial holysmoke
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:48:25
EID:f5bb 20569e00
MSGID: 1:157/200 57020261
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to J.J. HITT:
PS> RS>> Cola Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes' White
PS> RS>> Zinfandel Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
PS>
PS> PS> You need to fix this--my quoter munged your beautifully
PS> PS> spaced list.
PS>
PS> JH> Ahhh... that explains why I can't find a six-pack of Marilyn
PS> JH> anywhere.
PS>
PS>But it might be more interesting if you could.
"The Zaphod Beeblebrox?"
"No, just a Zaphod Beeblebrox. Haven't you heard I come in six packs?"
... Pro-Lifers and NRA members should play target practice with each oth
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 22 Feb 96 17:11:21
EID:1b11 20568960
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 312cc649
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 12a6c374
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Ryan Shaw said "Our Daily Bread" to Jesus Christ,
adding:
JC> \ /
JC> | |
JC> |\ -|- /|
JC> |/ /\\|
JC> ( / / )
JC> { / / }
JC> { ()() }
JC> { | | }
JC> | |/ /|
JC> { | } |
JC> |\ \ | |
JC> | \ \| |
JC> | U\* \ |
JC> | U\ \ |
JC> | UUU |
JC> | |
JC> | |
JC> |________|
RS> Hey Jesus! Now you have a penis. Enjoy it. It's standing up on end
RS> to boot.
It looks a little funny, though. Who did the bris? That
cross-eyed mohel from Jerusalem's East Side?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bitch
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:36:50
EID:10f5 2056a480
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 1180430a
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
> Let's ask Goat to pee on us and avoid situations that may damage our
> tithing livelyhood. The Holy Spit's pecker and guidance is the
> only way we can get us some.
> O child of Goat, guard well your limp dick
> From anything that stains your groin;
> Forsake those things that soil your undies -
> Your Father wants you membered-part.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Spokesmodeling
|Date: 23 Feb 96 08:13:57
EID:8ee8 205741a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 1180430e
REPLY: 1:215/130 0014ac64
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Elliott Finesse wrote in a message to Kenneth McAbee:
KM> that is what God said has to be done, so that is the
KM> way that it must be.
EF> Phew. Boy, you had me scared there for a minute! I was afraid you
EF> were going to give up speaking for God altogether!
His gawd must shit the biggest turd knowing that little Kenny is his only
mouthpiece.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: End Times!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 08:15:21
EID:d309 205741e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 1180430f
REPLY: 1:123/319 56cb0694
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Larry Jansen wrote in a message to All:
LJ> All hail! Satan and his New World Order are upon us
Um, Why do you talk to hail? Do you speak to cyclones, as well? They're
nothing but big bags of wind, anyway. :)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 20 Feb 96 07:58:35
EID:5075 20543f40
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312cded5
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 625779c7
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Andrew Masten <=-
RS>> And so does the mass killings. Answer the damn question.
RS>> Why does your god murder?
AM> What mass killings you refering to?
MG> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
Jim Jones was a pyschotic. That he didn't adhere to Christ's teaching is
self evident.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: flood
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:01:44
EID:eee0 20544020
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312cded6
REPLY: 1:280/9 1980f463
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> RB> But human willingness to die for causes or
AM> RB> beliefs does not make the cause righteous or the belief true.
AM>
AM> But its strong evidence that they believed there own claims that Christ
AM> rose from the dead. Would they suffer execution all for a story they
AM> made up?
RB> You are correct. It is evidence that they 'believed'. Some
RB> people 'believe' they've been abducted by aliens. Are you willing
RB> to accept THEIR beliefs?
If, on threat of execution by torture, they did not recant, I would be
compelled to believe they were not fabricating a story.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: hi
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:08:36
EID:44f7 20544100
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312cded7
REPLY: 1:272/99 00123b76
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Andrew Masten <=-
BK> (On 02-13-96 Andrew Masten replied to Brian Kolacy)
A M>-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> AM> AM> No. I'm under the new covenent, not the old. The N.T. also
AM> AM> AM> forbids witch craft ect. ect.
AM> BK> Wait a minute...Did Christ say "Ok, forget all the old stuff,
AM> BK> this is what your supposed to do now", or was he just appending
AM> BK> what your god said? If your under a "new covenent" [sic], why
AM> BK> does your Bible contain the Old Testament?
AM> The new testament is a fulfilment of the old testament, not an
AM> annulment. Christ said to love your neighbor as yourself, and you
AM> would be living by the law and the prophets.
BK> So, do you wear clothing of mixed fibers?
Yes. I don't even think about it.
AM> Just out of curiosity, if you think Christ is no more that a
AM> fictional character,
BK> It's entirely possible that Christ was fictional. But i didn't say
BK> anything like that. I *will* say that the the story of Christ has
BK> ficitonal aspects.
Do you think its entirely possible that Aristotle, Julius Ceaser, Nero and
Plato are fictional characters?
AM> why the concern with what Christians
AM> believe??
BK> I find it amusing that people follow a mythology. What I find
BK> concerning is when people who follow a mythology try to force their
BK> ideas on others, and kill people because of their myths.
Do you think anyone applying Christs teachings would go around killing people?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:21:17
EID:e8b3 205442a0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312cded8
REPLY: 1:272/99 00123b8d
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Andrew Masten <=-
BK> (On 02-14-96 Andrew Masten replied to Brian Kolacy)
AM> BK> As do the ones I list that contradict yours. I could find some
AM> BK> more, but, since you haven't even read your Bible completely,
AM> BK> it would be a waste of time.
AM>
AM> Brian, its nice to see you read the bible, its a shame you don't
AM> know what it means.
BK> You're saying that the words mean something other than what they say?
No, but they also have a spiritual application.
AM> You quoted instances when God was either
AM> smitting the enemies of Israel, or chastising His own people. Have
AM> your parents ever corrected you?
BK> Hey, my parents never claimed to be omnibenevolent...or omniscient,
BK> for that matter. Seems this god of yours knew full well what the
BK> people being killed were going to do, and could have issued them some
BK> sort of warning. Or, he could have truly given us free will, which
If I'm right, isn't God using me to give you a warning? Noah warned the
people, but they wouldn't listen.
BK> Christians are always saying their god gives them, and left the people
BK> on earth the fuck alone. Either your gods taking too personal an
BK> interest, or not enough....
How much interrest have you taken in God.
AM> Did it mean they didn't love. I
AM> let you know a little secret, if they didn't correct you, it was
AM> because they didn't love you.
BK> Hmmm...my parents wouldn't kill me, and call it "correction". And
BK> then have the audacity to say they killed me because of love. *This*
BK> is why Christianity is scary! You seem to be on your way to becoming
BK> another Paul Hill!
I correct my son and daughter, and I can assure you they are alive, well
and
happy. I believe in Christ. I'm not thinking of killing anybody.
]
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:42:51
EID:c186 20544540
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312cded9
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 3127fd9f
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Andrew Masten <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "Thumb-sucking
PS> Fundy"
AM> I hope that gives you some idea. All these attributes come from the
AM> bible.
RS> And so does the mass killings. Answer the damn question. Why does
RS> your god murder?
AM> What mass killings you refering to?
PS> Have you read your Bible lately?
All the time Preston. But he must have had something specific in mind.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub:
|Date: 20 Feb 96 08:47:41
EID:5d51 205445e0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312cdeda
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89284609
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Andrew Masten <=-
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Michael Hardy <=-
AM> Carl Sagan and two other scientists estimates for chance process
AM> of human evolving at 1 to 10exp 2,000,000,000. That would be
AM> several thousand pages of zero's.
AM> The single most common objection was the parameters only included
AM> life as we know it. Thats not entirely true, some parameters would
AM> exclude any life period. Bottom line, whether they admit it or
AM> not, there matieralistic point of view is just as 'faith based' as
AM> a creationist point of view. Can't give up hope though. You peck
AM> away at thier main points of objection. Who can say when, or if,
AM> it will come to fruition? The passion, and personal invective they
AM> use suggest there arguments are more of a salve to thier
AM> conscience.
MH> "as faith based?" I'd say it's far more faith-based ... a blind faith
MH> in chance and time because they refuse to accept the possibility of
MH> God.
MH> At heart, I am convinced, the objection is usually moral rather than
MH> scientific. The existence of a God means that our choices matter and
MH> that morality is not based in human opinion. That is anathema to
MH> many.
MH> The humanist Julian Huxley was honest enough to admit that the reason
MH> Darwin's theory was so rapidly accepted by "intellectuals" was
MH> because it "got God out of the way, and God was a great bother to our
MH> sex life."
Yes, thats true. I think much of what they say is just a smokescreen to
avoid the real issue's. I did the same thing though.
MH> ... Atheist reaching orgasm: "Oh chance! Oh random!!!! Yes!! Yes!!!"
MH> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
MH> -!- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
MH> ! Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 21 Feb 96 08:22:32
EID:544c 205542c0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312cdedb
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89290E23
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 02-16-96 08:48, Andrew Masten got back to David Worrell
DW> Are you denying the claim that up to 1/2 of all unborn infants die
DW> before they can be born? It seems God doesn't care as much for the
DW> unborn child as you do.
AM> I have no idea how many unborn infants die before birth. 1/2
AM> seems high.
DC> It's not. It's low. The figure is closer to 2/3. Assisted abortions
DC> are less tha 2% of the total.
I read 2 articles in Groliers Encyclopedia. One agreed that up to 2/3.
However the majority of these pregnacies are terminated before the women
is aware she is pregnant. In most cases, something is terribly wrong.
Another article claimed 10% to 40%. Perhaps confusion in terms.
AM> Attributing these deaths to God is inflammatory
AM> rhetoric.
DC> Why would that be inflammatory? After all, they died not from
DC> anything other than your god being unwilling to allow them to
DC> come to term.
When someone who claims they don't believe in God, attributes to God some
evil, its being inflammatory.
AM> Can I attribute
AM> all the successful births to the blessing and goodness of God?
DC> If you want to. But, then, you will have to admit that your god
DC> is the world's largest provider of abortions. Either that, or that
DC> your god is too incompetent to create perfection. Hence, you
DC> little god can't be omnipotent.
No Dan, the problem is with man who rejected God's plan for him.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 22 Feb 96 08:19:00
EID:d869 20564260
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 14:39, Robert Jackson got back to Karen Davis
KD> ... "We could take in an old Steve Reeves movie." -- Frank
RJ> "Who the fuck is Steve Reeves?" -- Audience
It would take a Herculean effort to explain it...
... "Alex, we'll take Assimilated Races for $100." -Borg Jeopardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:14:00
EID:8c49 205671c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 07:20, Eric Hendrix got back to David Worrell
DW> Did the command say "owe no man anything, except for necessities"?
EH> saving up for the second. Well, my wife had an accident and totalled
EH> the car, therfore we had no choice but to get a car, or walk. I don't
Sorry about the loss of your car.
However, you are using situational ethics, rather than following the
precepts of your religion.
And, just how many times has that been used in the past by other
great xians, like Torquemada?
... Religion, the Prozac of the masses
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:17:00
EID:9142 20567220
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-18-96 20:46, Jim Owens got back to All
JO> claimed that if you ate the flesh and drank the blood of a person then
JO> you would aquire the attributes of that person.
JO> Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
That's what they think in New Guinea. I imagine such a belief may
have been located in the middle east, or some area near to it some
2,000 yrs ago.
... Gee that Bear smells bad. No wonder they call him Pooh! -C. Robbins
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:18:00
EID:6b67 20567240
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 07:26, Eric Hendrix got back to Fredric Rice
FR> Christanics have murdered more people than any other cult or any
FR> other ideology or natural disaster save epidemic.
EH> Ok, let me re-phrase. *I* don't go out and kill people, because it is
EH> against my belief.
Yet, you go out and get a loan, which is also against the beliefs
that you profess.
... Bend the facts to fit the conclusion. It's easier that way.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Anthony Grigor-scott
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:20:00
EID:6a6a 20567280
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-18-96 23:43, Anthony Grigor-scott got back to Roland
R> I do not think the Carbon-14 dating method is perfect....However i do
R> think that it is normally `close enough'.
AG> Brother, they have carbon dated contemporary things to millions of
AG> years old. Just takle God at His Word.
Besides being a bigot, I see you are also scientifically stupid.
... I spoke to God this morning, and he doesn't like you.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:38:00
EID:9e3b 205674c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 19:00, George Mooth got back to All
GM> INSULATED FROM SIN
Your brain is insulated from reality. It's that solid cranium of yours
that does it for you.
... `Faith' means not wanting to know what is true.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:39:00
EID:9e3b 205674e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 14:15, George Mooth got back to Sue Alexander
SA>Taken from the holy book Principia Discordia...have you gotten the point
SA>YET??
GM> The real question is - have *you* gotten the point yet?
You mean the one on top of your head that you use to spear litter?
... Unlike George, the 3 Stooges were intentionally stupid.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:46:00
EID:1338 205675c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-19-96 19:37, John Prewett got back to Martin Goldberg
AM> What mass killings you refering to?
MG> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
JP> How long have you equated Jim Jones with God ?
How long have you equated a dead JFK with the anti-christ?
... "What do churches have to do with lunatics?" Staal
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:35:00
EID:1825 20569c60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 00:49, Steve Rose got back to J.j. Hitt
JJH>> The claim made for the film is that it made in 1947, this is
JJH>> Brothers model that wasn't marketed until 1954.
SR> The phone cord was the most damaging. But in addition to the
SR> Chocked FULL of detail failures! Much like those babble
SR> inconsistencies. ;)
Thanks for the info. If you happen to have any more readily available,
please do d/l it!
They have the video in the store, but I sure wasn't going to pay
"first run" pricing to view it. It might be good for a laugh,
as it's now in the "who cares section"!
... Drop that Bible and come out with your eyes open!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:49:00
EID:c273 20569e20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 18:34, Karen Davis got back to Dan Ceppa
KD> On (20 Feb 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Dawn Kleuser...
DK> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like
DC> Isn't it a liitle early? Pre-season practice hasn't even started
KD> Hey - they got a good trade or two [though they should have gone with
That works, but how much did they pay for him? Not as much as the
stupid Mariners are paying for Ken Griffy, that's for sure. (and
that's also very obscene...)
KD> both guns after Benis or a *real* good lefthander] and should be able
^
Not a typo? It would have made a good one!
KD> because of all the rookies and their reliance on the fantastic batting
KD> coach, who had a family emergency and wasn't with them quite as much.
Saw a news story this morning on a woman coach of a boys' HS BB team
that had her water break in the 3rd quarter... Is that considered
an emergency?
KD> :)
KD> [Hey - how did my hubby take over the computer!]
Sounds like you are into sports.... If so, nothing wrong with that.
What I object to is the enlargement of the old Roman Coliseum into
placating the rubes.
Ever stop to figure out how many _families_ could earn a reasonable
living by splitting up $34 million dollars over the next 4 years?
... Politic: Stealing from the many and giving to the few.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:55:00
EID:c94b 20569ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 01:14, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
JH> Plan 9, which also features Lugosi, was made AFTER he died.
JH> That's why you rarely see Bela's face and when you do it's
I know that one quite well, though I've never actually seen it in
its entirety.
JH> from cutting room scraps of earlier films. The back of Lugosi's
JH> head was played by Ed Wood himself.
I like the clip of the shower curtain between the cockpit and
the main cabin, plus the old-style kitchen chairs for the seats..
JH> HEY! I *like* Godzilla 1.0 (with a young Raymond Burr), it's all
JH> those later updates that gave the Big Lizard a bad name.
I found Gorgo to be more fun. Not quite sure which one came
out first, other than I did see Gorgo before I saw any of the
Gozilla movies...
... BARNEY virus found--(A)bort (R)etry (S)hoot it
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Clergman Abdicates
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:59:00
EID:0c86 20569f60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 18:52, Elliott Finesse got back to Andrew Masten
EF> The Adelaide advertiser,30-Aug).
EF> Title: Non-believing cleric sacked
EF> LONDON: A clergyman who trains priests said yesterday he was saddened
OOC, just what denomination was the clergyman?
Thanks for the follow up...
... "Jesus Christ couldn't get a temple recommend if he was a Mormon." JjH
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:01:00
EID:691f 2056a020
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892C0E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 18:52, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> called _The Mind of the Bible Believer_ in which he explains the
DC> Thanks... Now to find it. Better yet, to find the time to read it!
MB> I have it. If you e-mail me your address, I'll lend it to you.
MB> P.S. OOOOOPS!!! I forgot! I can't do that, as it would be a
MB> "good work."
That's right, it would be, wouldn't it.... Damn, and God Dan to
that!
... +Origin: Asmodeus Network! If it screws up, you're only kidding!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: All
|Sub: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 21 Feb 96 16:06:00
EID:e457 205580c0
MSGID: 1:284/120 56039b46
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011262
I have a book here titled "The Promise" Contemporary English Version - God's
Words in Your Words. It was a Christmas gift from my husband, who was very
thoughtful in remembering my great difficulty in understanding the King
James Bible. Now, I know that no other book can replace the Bible, and
it is there that I will find the truth. But, as luck would have it, I am
confused on an issue already.
Genesis 6:2 says - "That THE SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they
were fair; and took them wives of all which they chose." Genesis 6:4 says
- "There were giants in those days; and so after that, when THE SONS OF
GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children unto them,
the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." Genesis 6:5
says - "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and
that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Then God decides to destroy them with a flood.
"The Promise" interperets same as following: Genesis 6:2 - Some of their
daughters were so beautiful that supernatural beings (angels) came down
and married the ones they wanted. Genesis 6:4 - The children of the supernatural
beings who had married these women had become famous heroes and warriors.
They were called Nephilim and livedd on the earth at that time and even
later. Genesis 6:5 - The Lord saw how bad the people on earth were and that
everything they thought and planned was evil. Then God decides to destroy
them with a flood.
My question is this: what purpose did these angels serve in having children
with women? Were they truly Sons of God? In my own thinking, these angels
WERE Sons of God, but, like Lucifer, they were EVIL. That would expain
why people in turn became so evil that God decided to destroy them. Does
that make sense to anyone else? I'd appreciate any opinions on the subject.....
THANX! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Telecom Protest
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:46:22
EID:a4bd 20569dc0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 12d18771
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Christopher L. Filkins (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Feb 22 '96, 19:41
Apparently-to: 804!terry.liberty-parker
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 23:40:29 -0800 (PST)
From: villa.fc.net!chronotope.com!filkins (Christopher L. Filkins)
>**A global petition is now forming around EFF co-founder John Perry Barlow's
>"Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace" Add your voice. Results
will
>be sent to world leaders everywhere as another protest action.
>http://www.misha.net/~elfi/dec.html
>
>**Feb 26 protest to the White House: Politely but firmly email the US
>President, decrying his willingness to strip you of your free speech rights.
>The address is: president@whitehouse.gov (don't do it now, help stun the
>White House with thousands of messages on Feb. 26)
>
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 22 Feb 96 21:09:04
EID:9f1b 2056a920
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 12d2e4c5
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: WACO) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Terry Liberty-Parker (1:382/804.0) to All.
Original dated: Feb 22 '96, 20:03
Hello All!
Waco Rememberance will start 1pm Saturday March 2, 1996 in Austin, Texas
on the south side of the Texas State Capital at 11th and Congress. Survivors
of the U.S. Govt assault of the Branch Davidians near Waco will be joined
by sympathizers and protestors. At 3pm participants and sympathizers will
gather at Hickory St Grill at 8th and Congress. Contact Jeff Davis for
info at (512)331-9212.
Can any rational person justify the following:
"I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and children
and having a big tank coming through the front door. And they penetrated
a
room's length or more... This is America. This isn't a police state. I
don't
care what they did. I can't see that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't
realize the tanks had done that until I was shown by the govenment," she
said.
- Juror at trial of surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press
story in Mar 1, 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
Some of the children we were 'saving' DIED this way.
Should the 'tank' drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
they
'were just following orders?'
Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have been NO
criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
Many have distracted themselves from the need for justice by obsessing on
child abuse allegations aimed at Branch Davidian leader, David Koresh.
He is dead, and can no longer harm anyone. But, govt agents who followed
orders to drive tanks thru a residence occupied with men, women and children,
are still at large.
ENJOY,
Terry
___ timEd 1.00+
- Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Play catch-up
|Date: 22 Feb 96 16:50:11
EID:4c52 20568640
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35EF
RS> You are obviously not familiar with the power that the 12 Jewish
RS> bankers have over all members of this conference.
RS> To change a subject heading would be an impossible task.
Ok, so I will have to do this the hard way..... I'll play catch-up and read
as many as I can to learn the different posters and their respective characters.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 22 Feb 96 17:17:22
EID:a4f0 20568a20
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F0
SM> So now there's TWO new Netmail Addresses I need to tag!!
Just in case we slipped by you, here's our Fido ..1:352/266
It's nice to reconnect!
SM> Hate to tell you this, love, but the Hebrew is __clear__ that bats
SM> WERE considered as an unclean species of "bird".
Figured as much. Things like that are usually somewhere in Leviticus. I
guess I'm just not interested enough to do the research for it myself.
SM> both rabies and tularemia, and have the same resilience to bubonic
SM> plague as their house-rat cousins (Rattus Norvegicus var. and R.
SM> rattus var.). You DON'T want to eat them -- a case, just like that
SM> for pork, on the threat being that of eater being too biologically
Rats! Did someone say Rats?? That gets my attention. I probably wouldn't
want to eat one either..... I'd feel like most people would eating a puppy.
I'm way too close to a rat to eat one. heheh
SM> itpersonally!! And BY NO MEANS reduce yourself to their level (except
SM> as obvious
SM> recreation! :).
Hmmm that recreation could get tempting at times.
SM> trouble obtaining same (if you're the same Masochistic Maiden I know
SM> and love).
That's who this is. I haven't run across another with the same alias anywhere
yet.
SM> the titular subject) there is also informed debate on all facets of
SM> religion-impacted life going on here.
Hmmmmm that sounds like what I'm looking for!
SM> We call it the "HolySmoke Smorgasbord". You choose which subsets of
SM> the discussion you want to participate in. If you feel the fare is
SM> poor on scholarly discussion, YOU bring some up.
I think I can play that game.... however, listening to the uh..... tripe
people are throwing at each other will get... well at least annoying.
SM> If you want religious discussions __without__ the inflammatic
SM> overburden, then perhaps we have a downlink to re-establish, n'est-ce
SM> pas?? :-)
Oh, can I expect that much new reading material???? I think I could probably
handle both kinds of correspondance.
SM> Rowan, Devin and the rest of us send our best.............
Return the same for me, please.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 22 Feb 96 17:23:31
EID:a4f0 20568ae0
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F1
SM> Again, that's what Kali created the [n]ext key for!! :-)
Yeah, but browsing through 300 - 500 messages or more in this area of our
BBS alone begins to be a major task. And I don't want this to be the only
area I'm active in. (If I were to use Kali energy to hit the next key......
I think I'd break the keyboard!)
> I'm just beginning to build my own sacred texts resource library and
> would love the chance to enjoy learning from posts on any or all of the
> above topics.
SM> That did it.
SM> Tell the SysDwarf at Maison de Metal to Netmail my humble self at
SM> 1:128/203.666.
SM> We've got a DownLink to rebuild!!
Heheheheh bait has been taken! I relayed the message to the SysDwarf here....
gee do you want to know what he calls you? Hehehe I guess it's a dwarf
to dwarf link?
SM> love -- me
Still do.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 22 Feb 96 17:25:02
EID:04d1 20568b20
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F2
> FB> 4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM
> FB> 4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
SM> On their way.
It's amazing how I remember the rules, but never the names. Disnomia I
guess. Thanks for the information.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Jason Ballard
|Sub: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:18:08
EID:fe00 20569240
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F3
JB> Atrocities... Atrocities? It was murder that they comitted and
JB> in the end there will be vengeance. Vengeance on all those who killed
Hmmmmmm I think murder was committed on all sides of the religious lines.
Vengence is a reenactment of the same kind of carnage. Distasteful and wasteful
in my opinion.
JB> pay debt to anymore is your so called god. But what about my god, the
JB> earth, the trees and animals. The gaian theory, Wotan and Ulik. Those
I think possibly you assume too much. I have not stated a religious pathway,
nor a chosen diety. So, why the attack? Is it possible that your desire
for vengence has created a tendency to jump to conclusions and judge people
a bit quickly?
Wotan, isn't that the Teutonic form of Odin? A rather interesting All-father
who dealt well with self-sacrifice in hanging on a tree to receive a sacred
alphabet known as Runes. I think I see some desire for communication in
that sacrifice. And communication is a good first step to diplomacy. I
think I'd have liked him.
JB> yet we are among the cruelest race of creatures alive, god is no more
JB> crueler then what he has made man.
So, why do we maintain this hostility?
JB> it comes down to this. There can only be one religion to the
JB> christians why can they let us go our seperate ways instead of trying
JB> to become a monarchy so there plagued religion can take over the
JB> world.
Well, while I do realize that there are some Christians who push for a religious/social
government union, I do not think they are necessarily a majority. Maybe
they are just highly vocal? (I can tell this is a emotional response, you
have begun to use run-on sentences in a similar manner that I may do at
times.)
JB> I pray for forgiveness to the earth, the trees, the land, they
JB> suffer because of us, the animals, the seas, the streams and oceans
JB> are flooded and filled with our hatred. There is no longer a thing as
So, do you only pray, or do you also give volunteer time to clean-up opperations?
Is attention to waste of extinguishable products of importance to you? We
have a local Clean-Stream team that is entirely volunteer staffed. I'm
sure Gaia appreciates the efforts given by each person.
JB> are flooded and filled with our hatred. There is no longer a thing as
JB> peace, hatred as filled this earth and no one can stop that now.
The world is NOT completely filled with hatred as long as some of us refuse
to harbor that emotion. It may be more difficult to act on our beliefs
than it is to discuss them. I just don't want to waste time on destructive
attitudes.
JB> There is nothing but constant hate, braught on by your religions,
JB> there use to be no hate no indifferences until this so called thing
JB> religion came, we were just ordinary creatures, like dogs and birds,
I feel that hatred is more likely the result of inner anger that hasn't
been dealt with. Every religion I have looked at teaches the same rules
of respect for others, integrity, honor, knowledge, and experience under
a canopy of love. The representatives of every faith that I have visited
range from those filled with intolerance and hatred to those who use thier
time to further thier own growth.
Inside and outside the religious world you find intolerance existing side
by side with tolerance. I think it's more of a personal choice.
JB> yourselves who you truly were meant to be, if god intended us to live
JB> in peace, then he would create one surpreme religion so why thare
Um... why? Look around at the world, regardless of your personal creation
mythos, or evolutionist stand, the very diversity of the world is echoed
in the expression of human creativity and spirituality. Variety is a wonderful
quality, refreshing and renewing.
JB> to have seperate religions we were suppose be the same exact race,
I'm confused. The above sentence seems to relate religion to race?? Why
do you assume that one form of religious expression is all there should
be? Isn't this precisely what you were blaming Christians for a few moments
ago?
JB> say these things happen for a reason, now mother nature will get
JB> revenge with her storms and the gaian theory and prophecy of the
JB> Arian race will come true, when nature calls we all shall drown.
Possibly. If such is the case, shouldn't we spend our time here trying to
improve the relationships we have, honor our fellow humans, and enjoy life.
I just don't have time for all the hostility and revenge. I'd much rather
spend time reversing damage, cleaning up pollution, and being an active
part of society.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Beliefs.
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:26:13
EID:595f 20569340
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F4
Hello, Thanks for the reply.
MM> Hmmmmm what is the purpose in debunking another's faith?
SS> That's what this echo is about. You have a simple choice. Either
SS> livewith it or find another echo.
I have a third choice, participate in the echo to exchange points of view,
without trying to arrive at who's faith is better than who's. I still
would like someone to answer the question, what is the PURPOSE in debunking
another's faith. If there is an entire message area devoted to such a practice
there must be a purpose. What need or desire is met by the practice?
SS> What do you believe in?
Ummmmm maybe curiosity? Certainly I am a curious person. I hold honor, integrity,
knowledge, and experience beneficial in life. I find value in scientific
and mythic works. I'm pretty much in favor of freedom of speech, yet appreciate
respectful conversation above namecalling.
I return the question> What do you believe in?
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Subject Headers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:38:25
EID:1d32 205694c0
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F5
RM> Don't bother trying to fit in. The place is a disaster area,
Hmmmm then perhaps I should buy my modem a hard hat?
RM> everythingis all jumbled up, and there's no place to fit in anyway.
OK, so that's why I seem to see so many elbows being sharpened! Everyone
is vying for position and only the hardy survive? This echo should exhibit
the behavioral patterns of evolution then?
RM> Just be you and chat. (BTW, being a masochist is probably an
RM> advantagearound here).
Yeah, my real worry is that I may not be Sadistic enough to enjoy the battle.
RM> Myself, I pay more attention to the name in the "From" column than
RM> anything else when browsing here. And here's a tip - the really
RM> thoughtful people generally don't post 6,000 messages a day. No one
RM> (witha few notable exceptions) has enough time to write that many
RM> messages andmake them interesting.
Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for the suggestion.
RM> ... The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. (Thoreau)
Not around here! Seems the masses I live near live noisy lives of obnoxiousness.
RM> Take care.
Uh.... if I take it, does that mean there's less left for others?
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Jason Ballard
|Sub: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:38:14
EID:fe00 20569cc0
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F6
JB> It is true that people believe what they want to believe, but
JB> to teach them a lie, to fill there heart with lies and make them
JB> believe in lies. Turn them from what they really are, the animals
Ummmmm, silly question here, but what lies are you worried about? It seems
to me that differences of perspective are often called lies by those who
insist that only one way can be the truth.
JB> believe in lies. Turn them from what they really are, the animals
JB> look at us and say what the hell has become of you? Why can't you be
JB> yourselves who you truly were meant to be, if god intended us to live
Oh, yummy, a dog eat dog world. Ummmm this may sound strange, and I don't
want to be offensive here, but isn't intolerance, overgeneralization, and
such exactly what you hold against organized religion?
JB> in peace, then he would create one surpreme religion so why thare
JB> there so many beliefs? Why has religion changed so much throughout
As an expression of diversity? As an expression of the drive for power
over others? As a restraint for those who lack power over the self?
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
JB> all born pagans in the beginning why changed beliefs, christians are
JB> the supremacists they fight for there religion to take over the world
JB> and don't try to tell me other wise I have seen it with my own eyes
Hmmmm I've seen religious, and non-religious organizations attempt at controlling
the masses. Just as once the Pagani of Rome forced members identified with
new religious thoughts into the arena with the Lions or otherwise discriminated
against those who were different, the Christians of later times hung, burned,
and pressed people who they saw as different. No one group can throw mud
without it winding back up in their own face.
I've had proselytizing groups of everything from Seventh-Day-Adventists,
to Dianetics adherants arrive at my door. They have all respectfully left
when I said I perfered not engaging in discussion with them at that time.
Amazingly few return at a later date.
JB> humans color of the skin doesn't make a difference, but to the bible
JB> it says that there is a difference, we are all the same creature no
JB> difference then all the rest, but dogs and cats no gods do they pray.
JB> You don't see an animal praying, and if all men can go to heaven why
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
I don't want to sound like a school teacher, but I'm having problems telling
exactly what you are trying to say. "but dogs and cats no god do they pray."
Is a little scrambled. Do you mean that dogs and cats do not pray? If
that is your meaning, how do you know? Can you read their thoughts; do you
know their language well enough to discuss such matters with them? I prefer
to simply respect them a fellow creatures and not anthropomorphize their
thoughts. Some things we simply do not have the skills to discern at this
stage of our development.
JB> how they brag and brag, how they want there money, god doesn't need
JB> there money, we don't need god, we need ourselves, we don't need a
JB> god to watch over us when we can all watch over ourselves. We all
I respect any person who values independance, but such assuridity of one's
own self-sufficiency sounds a lot like the bragging you mentioned at the
beginning of the statement. Do you see needing others as a form of weakness
and vunerability? Is it difficult for you to rely on friends, nursing staff,
mechani, or grocer when you do not have the means to supply all your own
needs?
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
JB> all born pagans in the beginning why changed beliefs, christians are
Again, I feel like I'm maybe not getting the full meaning of your sentences.
Do you mean that since we are all born without formed belief systems that
we should remain in that state? Hmmmmmm I wasn't born with the ability to
feed myself either.... should I still be being fed today? Beliefs are learned
material that we choose to follow... or ignore as the case may be.
JB> must become a supreme race of beings, but religion changes that, the
JB> wars, the scars of the past nothing can be changed, and yet the war
JB> continues within, there will never be anymore peace, so why not fight
The scars of the past can be soothed when the current members of society
refuse to repeat the actions of the past. What war continues within you?
Why do you feel such deep hostilities that you are willing to engage in
the very type of action you despise?
During this post you have said you need no god (God as you choose), yet
have seemed very emphatic that you want one. Why?
JB> back.. They want to rip me of my beliefs then i'll fight them to the
JB> end.. Take care friend.
Who wants to? Only you can cause your beliefs to be less fulfilling for
you. Hey? since you said you need no god, why would you be willing to fight
for something you do not need? I'm confused again.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Jason Ballard
|Sub: Friends?
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:00:50
EID:e3bf 2056a000
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F7
JB> continues within, there will never be anymore peace, so why not fight
JB> back.. They want to rip me of my beliefs then i'll fight them to the
JB> end.. Take care friend.
Ummmmmmm there can only be peace if we choose to be peaceful. Who is the
they that want to rip your beliefs away? That is really an impossible task.
They (whoever they are) may discuss various belief systems, or even pass
legislation against practices, but nothing, nor anyone, except yourself
can change your beliefs. They are an
act of choice that can remain in privacy without them becomming less fulfilling
to you. That there should never be a need to maintain silence on ones beliefs,
is certainly an acceptable goal.
I'm a little uncomfortable sharing the category of friend with you. I choose
my friends from a less hostile group of people, however, I am more than
willing to continue discussion.... perhaps learning about your emotive factors
will make it easier to understand your impetuous abrasiveness.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: [2/2] Out of Focus
|Date: 22 Feb 96 20:32:25
EID:d34d 2056a400
MSGID: 1:352/266 312D35F8
JB> What can we do? We can't ignore them - we and those we care about
JB> have too much to lose. We can't fight them - letting our anger and
JB> frustration out plays directly into the hands of our adversaries;
Thank you for those words. I see far too much hatemongering masquerading
as religious indignation. It is so sad to see people who profess a philosophy
of love engage in discussions that engender hostilities.
JB> join them - their loyalty oath would exclude most of us. Even
JB> dialog with them is problematic; their views and values render them
Unfortunately, the matter is not totally one sides... fundy pagans full
of hostility, fundy christians full of rage stand at opposition while neither
represent the majority but a extrmemly zealous and vocal minority.
JB> We are unlikely to change them; we must accept responsibility for
Total agreement!
JB> we must become VITAL. We must renew our commitment to be active
JB> participants in a free and constitutional democracy; we must
JB> reclaim our roles and responsibilities as "citizens". For me, each
JB> of the five letters in the word VITAL serves as a reminder for what
JB> I must do to contribute as a citizen: V - Visible; I - Informed; T
JB> - Truthful; A - Accountable and L - Liberal.
Hmmmm can I quote you in a speech I'm making next May 5th? Or in a newspaper
article I must turn in Oct.25th? You have done a wonderful job on this
piece of writing and it would be a wonderful addition.
JB> concurring with these opinions. The voice of love and reason are
JB> soft but extremely powerful. Living in this town gives each of us
I could have said it no better, nor felt it more strongly. Thanks again.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: flood
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:11:36
EID:f92b 20570960
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312d7fd3
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8928460E
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Sue Alexander <=-
AM> But would you kill yourself if you knew you were only lying about
AM> time running out?
MH> And that's the key question. The very first Christian martyrs would
MH> have known the resurrection was a lie or myth, if in fact it was --
MH> and yet they suffered and died in defense of it.
The people at Jonestown and Waco also suffered and died for what
they believed in, and they were contemporary to the leaders of their
groups. Just because someone lived at the same time, Michael, does not
mean that they are knowledgeable about what has gone on in that time from
someone else's perspective.
There is also the matter of illusion...even if there were witnesses
to key aspects of the faith, such as the resurrected body of Christ, this
does not mean that what they thought they saw was what they actually saw.
Just think of what would happen if someone who had never been exposed to
stage magic saw David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear (I
think that one was his...I could be mistaken). Did D.C. really take the
Statue away for a short time? Of course not...but he knew how to make
it look as if he had.
If someone had a very strong belief because of what they thought
they saw, would you agree that they may consider being put to death for
that belief if that was expected of the believers?
MH> You're right, many people will lay down their life for a belief or
MH> an ideal. That is an entirely different thing, though, from
MH> claiming that an event happened and you witnessed some of it, and
MH> dying for refusing to recant that claim.
The people who thought they saw something may or may not have seen
the truth, but believed they had. The perpetrators of a hoax, if there
was one, could very well had different motivations for allowing
themselves to be put to death...it is a glorious way to die and be
remembered, you know. They could very well have been delusional as well
and belived after awhile the story that they perpetrated.
Life is not always black and white.
Sue
... A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: YHWH
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:24:54
EID:94b6 20570b00
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312d7fd4
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f99
-=> Quoting Sean McCullough to Sue Alexander <=-
> Besides, you have to change the culture with it...the main reason
> it spread so far was the burial rituals of the culture of the people
> involved necessitating certain burial rituals (which I do not know
> details of) that allowed the transmission through the body fluids.
SM> English Translation: SOMEONE in that culture had to handle the
SM> bodies. Again __just like HIV and hepatitis__, there's no way of
SM> stopping it we can rely on. Those who deal with the dead are still
SM> entitled to live, ya know?? :-)
From what I understand of Ebola, the culture where it showed up
required that the family members prepare the body for further
rituals...thereby exposing the family members to the blood and body
fluids of the deceased.
SM> Pathogens, remember, ADAPT TO THE LIFE OF THEIR HOSTS. And viruses
SM> are remarkably adaptable critters.
Don't I know it...;(
Sue
... Microbiology Lab: STAPH ONLY!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: He speaks!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:29:05
EID:3d6a 20570ba0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312d7fd5
-=> Quoting George Mooth to Sue Alexander <=-
SA>Taken from the holy book Principia Discordia...have you gotten the point
SA>YET??
GM> The real question is - have *you* gotten the point yet?
I'm glad to see that you are capable of at least limited interactive
conversation. The point that I have gotten from your continuing canned
posts is that you have absolutely NO idea as to the audience of this
echo. Many of the non-believers have been through a stage (or two or
six) of believing in your deity, only to be let down when the deity could
not help them in times of need.
Take some time to read ALL the messages here, and you may learn more
than you ever wanted to know about your deity.
Sue
... Once you have pulled the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:36:54
EID:ad7a 20570c80
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312d7fd6
THE BATTLE HYMN OF THE ERISTOCRACY
by Lord Omar
VERSE
Mine brain has meditated on the spinning of The Chao;
It is hovering o'er the table where the Chiefs of Staff are now
Gathered in discussion of the dropping of The Bomb;
Her Apple Corps is strong!
CHORUS
Grand (and gory) Old Discordja!
Grand (and gory) Old Discordja!
Grand (and gory) Old Discordja!
Her Apple Corps is strong!
VERSE
She was not invited to the party that they held on Limbo Peak;*
So She threw a Golden Apple, 'sted of turn'd t'other cheek!
O it cracked the Holy Punchbowl and it made the nectar leak;
Her Apple Corps is strong!
* "Limbo Peak" refers to Old Limbo Peak, commonly called by the Greeks
"Ol' Limb' Peak."
From the usual place...
... Don't take life too seriously. After all, it's not permanent.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:41:42
EID:ad7a 20570d20
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312d7fd7
REMEMBER:
KING
KONG
DIED FOR
YOUR SINS
This informative moment c/o the Principia Discordia.
... Support bacteria--it's the only culture some people have!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Gender
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:56:23
EID:59a1 20579700
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 12e56da0
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f97
Hello Sean!
Sean McCullough wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
> I myself grew up with gender equality in Denmark, where
> politicians (and plumbers, and engineers) have approx a 50/50
> distribution - and so did my husband (in Israel).
SM> "50/50 distribution" ?? ??????? Please explain!!
As we were talking about gender distribution in various work areas
it means: 50% of politicians (and plumbers, and engineers) are
male, and 50% are female :-)
Other professions in some countries may show a different
distribution - for example: in Eastern Europe the medical profession,
and especially on the "General Practitioner level", has far more
women than men (which also to some extend hold true in Israel).
> Now, this is not my experience at all. Since 1983 we have been
> running our own chemical import business from home, and men always
> seem to get the message very quickly whom of us it is most beneficial
> to talk to.
SM> That you SA'ns owe to your India neighbors. Women DO own
SM> most of the private sector in that nation; they control a
SM> great deal of the rest corporately; and their first female
SM> head of state, Indira Gandhi, was no slouch.
Unfortunately SA's Indian population is too small and has had too
little influence to imprint the general public here.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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PATH: 7107/21 9 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: One Staal (Under his god)
|Date: 21 Feb 96 02:17:47
EID:18d6 20551220
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Fredric Rice > Norbert Sykes : One Staal (Under his god)
FR> And another twenty took its place.
ns> Well, there's your problem...you got the porch
ns> light on. Attracts all kinds of loathsome bugs...};)
FR> I'm gonna have to install some no-fundy strips and some fundy-zappers.
The zappers are better. The strips don't kill then instantly, so
they're free to annoy for a while. Good thing you aren't putting
up Fundy Paper . . . a score or two of Fundies stuck to gummed
paper screaming `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!' over and over is no
picnic. You really have to crank up the radio and then your
neighbors complain. Better a quick death, I think . . .
... When they arrived, they found Jesus in the manager. -- Richard Lederer
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 289 821 1102 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 21 Feb 96 02:25:02
EID:d7fe 20551320
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Fredric Rice > Norbert Sykes : US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
TL> PROHIBITS THE USE OF INDECENT SPEECH ONLINE AND ANOTHER THAT
TL> BARS DISCUSSION OF ABORTION ON THE INTERNET. THE PRESIDENT,
>> Fuck, I shoulda never been born. Ooops! Double Ooops!
FR> This TLP clown is about as rabid as they can get.
ns> This is the first time I've seen a post from them, so I had no
ns> idea. Glad to know what the standard is, though...especially
ns> around here...};)
FR> Usually TLP posts these wild extremist anti-government
FR> "pronouncements" about Waco, Texas, or Ruby Ridge. He and his little
FR> band parade back and forth in front of government offices calling for
FR> the arrests of the people inside. I wouldn't mind seeing
FR> Janet Reno tried for treason against the State and I certainly would
FR> like to see the officers involved tried for murder, but these
FR> lunatics' anti-government extremism makes me wonder why they just
FR> don't leave the United States if they think it's been taken over by
FR> Jews -- or whatever they think is controlling them.
Isn't the reason they don't leave just that they believe they have
ownership or entitlement to this country? Yokels. Go figure. I
occassionally applaud extremists, especially if I've had a rotten
day (just for amusement factor I like the occassional ex-employed
going on a postal spree with his boss) but there's some seriously
fried neurons in the bunch if they think things like Oklahoma City,
etc., get them much sympathy.
Whenever I see the bumper-sticker that says "The Government can
have my gun when they can pry it from my dead limp fingers," I
usually cheer and say, "all right!" If they hear, they think I'm
supporting them, whereas I'm just a big fan of evolution-in-action.
};)
... The epistles were the wives of the apostles. -- Richard Lederer
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 289 821 1102 206/2711 218/801
SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: DOUBLE STANDARD ALERT
|Date: 22 Feb 96 16:10:31
EID:2b22 20568140
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c959e
21 Feb 96 06:05, Judith Bandsma wrote to David Worrell:
MH>> If a Christian expressed glee over the prospect of someone
MH>> contracting AIDS, the response would be .... what?
DW>> Still looking vainly for a double standard, Knee-Jerk? "SA"
DW>> doesn't
JB> Mike also seems to forget the glee a lot of fundamentalists DO take
in
JB> the rate of AIDS among gays.
Hardly forgets whatever is convenient for him to forget.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Home page (you care, I know you do).
|Date: 22 Feb 96 16:11:21
EID:39ee 20568160
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 312c967a
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312bc211
21 Feb 96 20:08, Preston Simpson wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> Curry pointed out my problem to me soon after I posted the above.
PS> "Psst. Dave. You fucked up."
At least I can make a proper "mailto:" link. :)
DW>> Goddamned Unix candy-assed case sensitive bullshit.
PS> Don't mince words, David. What do you *really* think of Unix?
We'd be here all damn day.
I just downloaded a copy of Internet Explorer. It is faster than Netscape,
but it doesn't format my page correctly. Now I've got to fix that shit,
too. I'm almost afraid to get Mosaic or any of the other browsers.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: AD KUIKEN
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:16:00
EID:d5da 20563200
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Judith Bandsma <=-
DC> Got the last part, but could you translate the first 2 words for me?
Tot ziens...literally, to see. Common usage...'see you later'. And in
lots of ways, I will. Ad and Leo looked enough alike to be twins.
... *BOOM!* Intel OUTSIDE!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 22 Feb 96 07:16:00
EID:6b06 20563a00
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Judith Bandsma <=-
GR> Snail mail the info to me at:
Will do.
GR> I like honesty. Most folks won't admit being late.
Well that's dumb. If you are as smart an investor as you say you are, you
would be absolutely crazy NOT to check my payment history. When you check
it you're going to see the times I've been slow. And one glaring problem
a few years ago when the Amex went unpaid for 3 months because the woman
I had working for me at the time was using the Corporate Card unauthorized
and intercepting both the bills and the copies I requested to keep me from
seeing what she had been doing. The one thing I wish banks and other lending
institutions WOULD look at, though (and they don't) is whether or not the
bills ever got paid, late charges paid, etc. Businesses go through slow
periods. You hang on to your cash as long as possible...and sometimes when
you have a slow paying customer (such as the government can be at times),
you have to wait to pay your own bills. That's life. (Jeez, do I sound like
a fundy, or what?)
GR> I'm interested in seeing an accounts paid sheet. I want to check out
GR> who you have done business with.
Part of the stuff already in the works.
GR> I hope you pay over minimum wage. And I hope you encourage those
GR> mudslingers to be creative. And I need to be able to contact the
GR> people that work for you now.
A bit over minimum wage, with membership in the local HMO. (We can't afford
any other health insurance.) Right now I don't have anyone working for me.
The woman who ripped me off will have nothing good to say about me as I
had
to threaten to charge her with embezzlement to get back the almost $2000
she stole. She still doesn't feel that I should have expected her to pay
it
back. The other woman who was working for me had to quit because of medical
reasons and will probably never be able to come back unless she can be in
a position of not having to do any heavy work. But I'd have her back in
a
minute...she is that good.
I'll ask some of my customers if I can pass along their names and addresses
to you. Some of them are very protective of their own businesses and I won't
do it without their permission.
Sorry to hear about your BBS problems. Got an Internet address? If so, I'll
send you the shop's 800 number that way.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: BUTTPIMPLE SATANIST FAILS
|Date: 22 Feb 96 07:56:00
EID:0754 20563f00
-=> Quoting Robert Jackson to J.j. Hitt <=-
RJ> punk! Lay some heavy shit on ME! Hell, I'll even start
RJ> voting Republican again if it'll help..."
Now that's desparation at it's finest.
Congratulations on all the good stuff, though.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 22 Feb 96 08:09:00
EID:f0c4 20564120
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Steve Wallis <=-
> What authority do you have to knock it.
SM> I pay higher personal taxes so that Focus can keep socking away
SM> profits, just like a drug dealer.
I just posted a 3 parter to Mike Hardy that came from FoF itself from
last September (they don't have anything newer on their web site) about
the Women's Conference in Beijing. I do hope he will read it all. FoF
loses all credibility with just 2 points in that 'newsletter'...the ones
about the serving of human fetii in restaurants as a delicacy being one.
The other is so ridiculous I can't even see ANYONE...even Prewett or Staal...
being able to pronounce it credible. About 180 women 'fleeing forced abortions
in China' who SAILED (this is the critical part) from China and went
aground IN NEW YORK HARBOR.
Although I fully expect Mike to come up with some nonsense as 'well, they
went through the Panama Canal' without asking himself where refugees would
get the money for passage through the canal or HOW someone so inept as to
run aground in New York harbor could have gotten that far in the first place.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: CPU PARTS
|Date: 23 Feb 96 04:20:00
EID:1a74 20572280
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Don Ward <=-
DW> BZZT! A 386/25 isn't *worth* thirty dollars, pimple.
Psycho would get along well with the local guy who posted an ad trying
to sell AOL disks for $1.00 each.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: FUNDAMENTALISTS R US
|Date: 23 Feb 96 04:42:00
EID:e8dd 20572540
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Preston Simpson <=-
RB> Where the favorite ride is the ferris wheel (having the same
RB> shape as fundi reasoning).
That would have to be the Sky Wheel...2 wheels turning independently and
revolving around each other. Makes an interesting sight when it falls over
and goes 'splat'.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:05:00
EID:676d 205760a0
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Judith Bandsma <=-
> The majority of white, influential males ARE like that, Styx.
SA> Such generalizations should not be stated as fact unless one is
SA> prepared to support their argument. I don't believe your statement
Ok, Styx, I just spent 35 minutes with Yahoo searching for information
on female executives within the Fortune 500. In 35 minutes I was only able
to find *7* references, 6 of them about problems within the companies.
Five of those were about sexual harassment on the SECRETARIAL level, one
was about aging and the female executive and one was about Ellen Hanley
who now heads a semi-conductor research facility.
I found lots of information on the MEN who head these companies, but
couldn't even find the number for female executives within the Fortune 500.
I know there have to be SOME. I chose the Fortune 500 because they are
the group that makes up the majority of influential business leaders in
the
world. They are also the companies most heavily into financing politcal
candidates and lobbying.
I searched on 'female executive', 'female ceo', (of which there were
0 matches) and 'women in business'. Those 7 articles were gleaned from a
total of 2500 searched.
I may go back and try again later, but it is truly discouraging.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: All
|Sub: awfk
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:06:00
EID:7749 205760c0
Just thought I'd let everyone know that I may be away for a day or 2.
The money is now in my hands for the new computer. Since part of it is
components from the system I now use, it means that I will be out of
contact for a bit. Hopefully, not too long. Taking it in tomorrow...don't
know exactly when I'll have it back but when I do:
120mH Pentium
1Gb hard drive
850Mb hard drive
1.7Mb tape backup
16M RAM
2 3.5 floppy drives
5x CDROM
new sound blaster
14.4 fax/modem
I'm drooling already. I will finally have room for more than my OLR
and comm programs once the business programs are reinstalled.
... I have a dream: DIR C: 965465065464984030373436 bytes free...
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Murder justified by deity constructs
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:20:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094255
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dc7
PID: FM 2.02
PS> Why make the shedding of blood a requirement at all? Is God a
PS> bloodthirsty god?
am> No Preston. But God's attribute of mercy is not at the expense of justice.
If you're talking about the Christanic deities, "mercy" isn't what normal
people would use to describe them. In actual fact the Christanic mythologies
depict tyranical despot deity constructs which are immoral to the extreme.
~*~ Did you have a point to make (hopefully one which doesn't call
for dead presidents rising from their graves to destroy the
world -- ROFL!)? -- Hector Plasmic to John Prewett
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:20:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094256
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 31279dc8
PID: FM 2.02
SA> Your god would first have to exist, for me to reject it.
SA> What I reject is your unfounded dogmatic belief system.
am> Thats fair enough. Do you have an alternate philosophy I might adapt?
How about reality?
~*~ "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not
screaming in terror like his passengers." (nicked from Jim Harkins)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:21:37
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094257
REPLY: 1:284/120 5201aae8
PID: FM 2.02
> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and
> would like to hear any stories anyone has about them.
Interesting but not very rational. I'm curious why you would believe in
something to silly. Do you also believe in fairies, pixies, and warewolves?
~*~ Psychiatrists are in business for one reason only, to control or
kill as many beings as possible. - Scott Rider
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: One Nation Under Goat
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:26:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094258
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 118042e8
PID: FM 2.02
MH> I've just turned this echo on and
mh> this is one of the first things I see.
sr> Take your babble-blinders off.
But he feels warm and comfortable hidden under his blankets where the harsh
light of reality can shed its illumination upon him.
sr> You'll be seeing a lot more than you bargained for on this echo.
I suspect nearly every theist does.
sr> More real than the delusions you have lived with for so long.
HolySmoke is a cold hard slap in the morning, the first cup of coffee, a
bucket of cold water thrown upon the sleepy.
~*~ Here...have an after-life. Sit up, boy...sit up!" - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:28:51
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094259
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 118042f4
PID: FM 2.02
JJH> The claim made for the film is that it made in 1947, this is
JJH> patently false as the microphone seen in the film is a Shure
JJH> Brothers model that wasn't marketed until 1954.
sr> I have heard at least two other glaring technical-prop
sr> continuity screw-ups, too. Guess the hoaxers didn't do
sr> their homework well enough! :)
Someone also pointed out that the model of the telephone used didn't exist
at the time.
~*~ The 'baby' doesn't exist in Christanity. It was a myth
designed to justify the bath water. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Many gods
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:34:13
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09425a
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31282824
PID: FM 2.02
MH> on. This place looks like a battleground. I take it from your post that
MH> you place no faith in Christ. I am totally dedicated to Him. Did
you
I'm totally dedicated to Zeus. Imagine.
sq> More appropriately, this echo is a place where Bible thumpers attempt
to
sq> pull the wolf costumes off of non-believers, only to find that the non-
sq> believers really ARE wolves and that there are no sheep to be found
sq> underneath.
sq>
sq> The wolves then eat the Bible thumpers.
Us vegetarian wolves must settle for metafundies, I guess.
~*~ Just shut up and sit back down and ride the bus like the rest of us.
- Patrick Humphrey
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: Christian death cult bigotry
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:38:43
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09425b
REPLY: 1:280/26 530b8bd0
PID: FM 2.02
rm> Is it? I think there was a case in California where a Christian
rm> org didn't hire someone on the basis that the person wasn't a
rm> practicing Christian. The org one the lawsuit.
Christanics are always winning (stop spelling it "one") their right to bigotry
and hatred. The ACLU has defended the KKK's (a Christian organization)
right to spread their ideological hatred and bigotry and the Christian organization
has won every time.
In America it's not illegal to hate inniocent people.
~*~ I'd rather have a free mind than be saved. - Robert Jackson
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Morrison
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = gotcha!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:39:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09425c
REPLY: 1:280/26 530b8bf2
PID: FM 2.02
FL> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
MH> Of course, those atheists almost certainly *are* hypocrites.
rm> :)
rm> Doesn't seem surprising does it.
Another cultist is suckered in! Neat!
Is it any wonder why fundies _never_ win an argument?
~*~ The Ringworld is unstable! - David Rice
Why? - J. J. Hitt
Early childhood trama. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Millions of gods, not three
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:44:34
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09425d
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312909d4
PID: FM 2.02
DO> Everyone who has done anything wrong in their life, (and I believe
we
DO> all have at one time or another) are now removed. But it doesn't stop
ps> Wait. How does "doing something wrong" coincide with being evil?
ps> I did things wrong in math classes all the time. Did that make me
ps> evil?
Yes. Repent.
~*~ The real world is NOT a friendly place for faith or ideals.
- Sean McCullough
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Death Cult
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:47:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09425e
PID: FM 2.02
> FASHION OR FAITH?
> Read: 1 Corinthians 1:18-25
> God forbid that I should boast except
> in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.
> -Galatians 6:14
FASHION OR BLOODTHIRSTY MURDER?
Read: Josh 6
"And they utterly destroyed all in the city, man
and woman, young and old, and ox... with the edge
of the sword."
~*~ I can't help but comment that it looks to me like your
goat is tied up in Mr. Rice's back yard. - Jonny Vee
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Death Cult
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:48:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09425f
PID: FM 2.02
> THE SMART HOUSE
> Read: Ecclesiastes 2:1-11
> Through wisdom a house is built,
> and by understanding it is
> established. -Proverbs 24:3
THE MURDER OF CHILDREN
Read: Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34
"We... utterly destroyed the men and
the women and the little ones."
~*~ Indeed, if there were no God, I would _have_ to be selfish, I
believe, because there would be no one else watching out for me,
and no reason to put anyone or anything ahead of me. - Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Satanist curse kills JJ Hitt! (He's not quite dead yet.)
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:52:57
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094260
PID: FM 2.02
Asmodeus
As> Teach me how to *AIM* them?
ns> Which word didn't you understand?
So the failing of this silly to inflict great bodily harm to
JJ Hitt was poor aim? Love it! I wonder which innocent person
was struck dead by his curse.
As> What does JJ know of throwing curses?
"...throwing curses..."
As> employ the correct means for the job, and not much 'aiming'. ie.
As> summoning Metztli, for example, for the job would be met with much
As> unsuccess,
ns> Plus Metztli would have eaten you, dirty shorts and all.
~*~ It's easy to understand "the Holocaust," with jews like goldberg.
- John Prentiss
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:58:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094261
PID: FM 2.02
As> Heh. I find it humorous how the whitelighters rely
as> so much on their As> Gods to protect them.
ns> It's about as funny as some insipid goat-worshiper believing he has
ns> ultimate power because he worships an artificial-entity construct.
Hey! As a minister with the Restored Church of the Star Goat I take umbrage!
(Er, whatever that is.) And I ain't giving it back!
Take care else I'll have Assmodify to curse you. }:-}
~*~ As for the road map, those roads are paved with the bodies of more
than one person who died not for your religion, but because of it.
- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 25 Feb 96 09:59:21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094262
PID: FM 2.02
John Prewett
JP> Kinda like when God sent angles to shepherds to announce
JP> Messiah's birth,.... stead of sending them to the big shots.
The gods always speak through the uneducated.
ns> God sent 'angles'? How did he know they
ns> were the 'right angles' to send?
He hasn't a 'ray' of hope of answering that.
~*~ He who lives by the salad bar dies by the salad bar. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:01:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094263
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6263492a
PID: FM 2.02
A>> What does JJ know of throwing curses?
DW> More than you do, apparently. Should we paint a target on
DW> JJ's forehead to make sure you hit him next time?
Assmodify needs to instal some laser sites.
How you feeling today, JJ? Suffering from unexplainable nose bleeds, cold
feet, or attacks of gas?
~*~ All the evidence indicates that the universe is simply about
15 billion years old, and that's that. - Hector Plasmic
Please provide evidence that the earth is 15 billion years old.
- Johnny Mckinney
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: All the Gods' Words
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:06:10
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094264
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 14171d8d
PID: FM 2.02
jcj> I have many texts, having majored in history.
And for some reason you pretend the Soviet Union was "evil."
Are you also an English major?
~*~ I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have
any rights and i never will. - Don Ward
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:09:08
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094265
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org bf467bfb
PID: FM 2.02
Tp> By the way, what do your comments add to the alleged topic
tp> of this echo; or did you think you were posting to the 'net
tp> butt buddies gossip' echo?
kw> Ohh, sounds like David got you in the quick. Why do you
kw> just assume that anytime a group of men get together, it
kw> is for homoerotic reasons?
Well now, Katherine, we include you gals among our "butt buddies" too.
dw>> you actually posted something useful. Amazing.
dw>> See what you can do if you put your mind to it?
Tp> I have every confidence that you and your LOSER buddies will
tp> find a way to discount it's value. That's why you're losers.
And yet he continues to post his right-wing extremism lunatic postings here.
~*~ We'll have to slaughter innocent people who show how godly we are.
- Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Question
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:13:53
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094266
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 312895f0
PID: FM 2.02
gr> I've asked this question before. And I'm going to ask it again.
gr> Are there any Black users of this echo?
gr> Or is this echo the conversvative version of "Whiteland"?
Does it matter?
~*~ He'd ask "Have the cops been hot?" and sometimes I'd say "Yes"
and he'd get nervous and leave.
-- Debra Murphree, refering to Jimmy Swaggart
(Penthouse magazine, July 1988)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = gotcha!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:14:41
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094267
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 129c4401
PID: FM 2.02
MH> Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
jp> They act so hurt when that is pointed out to them.
Another fundy cultist checks in to fall for the hoax!
Loving it!
~*~ I had two margaritta's, and was eyeing the women like
a deer eyes oncoming headlights. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:17:18
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094268
REPLY: 1:352/266 31292112
PID: FM 2.02
DC> Not exactly what you are looking for, as, for the most part,
DC> it is a religion debunking Echo. Facts, not myths are the
DC> general rule of order.
mm> Hmmmmm what is the purpose in debunking another's faith?
When someone's superstitions includes the unaffected, the health and safety
of the unaffected have historically been badly damaged. More people have
been murdered for the religious superstitions of _others_ than have killed
thsemselves for their own.
Many cultists today try to force their occultism into the public schools
in an attempt to staunch the flow of blood, so-to-speak, that is draining
cult membership acorss the board. An educated populace is an unbelieving
populace and so cultists are trying very hard to damage the population's
education.
~*~ So why do you stick around? - Steve Quarrella
To combat the evil. - Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Don Ward
|Sub: wrong board
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:18:24
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094269
REPLY: 1:388/14.0 3128cfc5
PID: FM 2.02
DW> Prov 15:2 The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the
DW> mouth of the fool gushes folly.
MG> Didn't your god teach you not to steal, Don?
dw> Look you un-intellectual moron what have I stollen?
A simple "no" would have been an honest answer, Don.
~*~ Disbelief in religions does not constitute a religion any more than
disbelief in UFOs constitutes a space program. - Larry Haftl. 1:152/11
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: FOF cult UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:20:22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09426a
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8928460F
PID: FM 2.02
JB> I have all the authority I need when I see a group that is actively
JB> working to take books they don't like out of libraries and deny people
JB> human status because they don't like their lifestyle. FoF is a HATE
JB> group. Nothing but. And they seek to spread that hate and make it the
JB> law of the land.
mh> Evidence, please.
Perhaps you should actually research what the FoF cult does for yourself.
Witness the death cult's hatred and bigotry in Colorado with their Constitutional
rights-destroying "Prop. 2."
Welcome to Christianity, Mike. Welcome to the hatred and bigotry.
~*~ There are too many air conditioned dog houses in the world.
- Dan Lafferty
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Millions of Gods not three
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:21:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09426b
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89284613
PID: FM 2.02
mh> Matthew 16:18 "On this rock I will build my church,
mh> and the Gates of Hades will not overcome it."
He's talking about Mithra, silly.
~*~ Not to mention the redoubtable Zip-Loc principle. When it
turns green, quit already! - Don Martin
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: OPINION POLL
|Date: 25 Feb 96 10:33:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c09426c
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89290E2B
PID: FM 2.02
JH> His work has been enjoying a cult following over the last
JH> decade or so. A case of being sooooo damn bad you're good.
dc> Like the Godzilla flicks the Japanese made. So much
dc> fun making up dialogue for it as you viewed it!
I kind of enjoyed the bamboo flying saucer flicks.
~*~ No, I'm not a fundy. - Johnny Mckinney
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: @1:102/890
|Date: 25 Feb 96 15:18:41
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f0
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 12a8c581
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Sure thing! Any help I can offer, that's what I'm here for.
FR> [...cuts...]
>> In Christ,
FR> Woops! I'm sorry. I don't provide personal information to
FR> Christians due to the hatred, bigotry, intolerance and zealotry
FR> that their cult historically stands for and what it does to inflict
FR> misery upon humanity in contemporary times.
rs> Why take the moral low road? Why overgeneralize? Why refuse to
rs> help someone simply because they consider themselves christian?
"...moral low road..." I would no more provide helpful information to a
KKK member than to provide information to someone whos zealotry compells
them to express their servitude to evil with every post. I would no more
provide assistance to members of NAMBLA. I find Christianity to be morally
bankrupt and its bloody history to be wholly accurately depicting what Christianity
is. I'll not allow someone who joined the evil to exclaim that they're not
agreeing with what it historically stands for.
Also, had he not desired to solicit information using the appeal _as_ a
Christian, I would have granted him the information he sought -- as I so
often do when I recieve messages asking for the same thing. For the same
reason I don't exchange in commerce with people who advertise with fish
symbols. They believe it grants them special honors which, sadly in the
United States, probably does. But not from me. I don't respect the evil
that they joined and wish to deny is part of their willing joined club.
rs> Personally I don't like the fact that many christians advertise what
rs> they are. In everyday life my views almost never come up in any of
the
rs> relationships I come into unless that is the specific purpose of the
rs> relationship or conversation.
rs>
rs> I refuse to judge an entire group of
rs> people based on the beliefs of a few.
I shouldn't have to ask you whether you think it reasonable to join the
KKK and demand one's not a racist. I'm not going to ignore what the Christian
religion has done to the world, what it continues to do to the world, and
the fact that this clown gleefully announces his alliance to something utterly
evil.
FR> Pleae don't take offense.
rs> What a hollow statement. You're obviously trying to _create_ offense.
Well I hope it was obvious.
~*~ I spayed my pet back in '75. Sex is still just fine, thankyou.
-- Jim Staal
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE A PILL
|Date: 25 Feb 96 15:37:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f1
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 3129842b
PID: FM 2.02
JH> You probably won't get this message until after I resurrect.
JH> FidoNet is EVEN SLOWER on this side. (But on the plus side,
JH> I now know where all the missing mail goes to.)
sa> Welcome back from the dead! Who did you show yourself to
sa> so that you can start your very own set of rumors?
Hey! We don't want JJ to expose himself to us! 'Could strike some of us
blind or worse. I'm curious if JJ's blood pressure even went up or whether
he suffered from sore feet or anything. }:-}
~*~ Now _that's_ an accurate summation of HolySmoke. Hurtful heathens
lying
in wait for tender young Christians to happen along. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: THOMAS DELCANO
|Sub: Children
|Date: 25 Feb 96 15:38:27
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f2
REPLY: 1:360/24 9457935e
PID: FM 2.02
> WHAT!!! you expected to find CHRISTIAN KINDNESS??? HERE??????
> ROFL...........
"Christian kindness?" As in being kind to pagans by killing them?
~*~ God was visible during the OT because there wasn't the written
form of the OT. And there is now. - Maria Russell (submissive fundy)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: THOMAS DELCANO
|Sub: Satan is a Christian god
|Date: 25 Feb 96 15:40:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f3
REPLY: 1:360/24 e9599256
PID: FM 2.02
KW> Satanists are usually considered to be Christians by the Pagans,
JP> Demonstrating the ignorance of Pagans.
John's so cute. Anything which is undeniably true is "ignorance" to him.
td> Untrue , Spunky SATAN is a christian god, not a pagan god,
Watch now as John bleats "blasphemy!" and turns his back on one of his gods.
~*~ Your zeal is worthy of a better cause. - Phil Morrison
What better cause is there than freeing people from the mental slavery
that you and your compatriots try to inflict upon them? - Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Daughters
|Date: 25 Feb 96 15:43:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f4
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892A0E2C
PID: FM 2.02
KW> How old is your daughter? Mine is three and a
kw> half, and in that terribly 'intense' stage.
dc> Mine's 13, and in that terribly 'intense' stage! (Certain
dc> things just don't seem to change, just get older....)
I'm so happy I have three sons and no daughters. I remember fully well
myself as a lad and would lock up any daughters I would have had until they
were 18.
~*~ You don't need "faith" to believe Richard Dawkins; you need
an education. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 25 Feb 96 15:49:15
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f5
REPLY: 1:207/212 61d26166
PID: FM 2.02
AM> Attributing these deaths to God is inflammatory rhetoric.
kd> 1/3 to 1/2 is the usual medically given
kd> number for spontaneous abortions.
I thought it was higher than that.
kd> You and your Christian friends *already* attribute all successful
kd> births to God, so you've got to accept the other side of that coin.
Well, let's see. A George Bush Dollar says that he'll claim it's a "Satanic
lie" or something close to that.
~*~ though we do not accept homosexuals into the church
that does not make us bigots - Dan Lafferty
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Quote mythology
|Date: 25 Feb 96 15:52:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f6
REPLY: 1:207/212 f8543cd4
PID: FM 2.02
KM> You don't beleive in it, I do. Christ said that it exists, it is also
km> cast into the lake of fire in Revelation, now how could it be cast
km> into the lake of fire if it does not exist?
Neat! Quote mythology and demand how it was done if it isn't true!
ks> How could King Arthur have received the sword from the strange woman
ks> lying in a pond [which is no basis for a system of government :)] if
it
ks> didn't exist?
Just because some watery tart throws a scimiter at
you doesn't mean you get to wield supreme power.
Oh! Now we see the violence inherant in the system.
Help! Help! I'm being suppressed!
~*~ Ok, please explain the difference between facts and truth - J. Conwell
Facts are what the educated accept as truth.
Truths are what fundies are told to accept as fact. - Steve Rose
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: History of Christianity
|Date: 25 Feb 96 16:04:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f7
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 18010a95
PID: FM 2.02
>> From what I've seen scanning through the messages, many
>> of you seem very cynical of christians....why?
sm> Combine the annoying quality of the vast majority of Jesus cultists
sm> we've gotten in the Echo with the fact that the Christians are short
sm> one each God-thing (at least, no believer has YET been able to produce
sm> same), and you've got the recipe for quite the load of cynicism.
Let's not forget the history of Christianity. And Islam. And Judia. I
think above all else what a religion has historically stood for overrides
any claim to virtue which contemporary members make.
>> There seems to be a stereotype (at least what I've read) that
>> christians are stupid lazy people who are out of touch with
>> the world and have closed their minds....mind if I ask why?
sm> Because that DOES describe the vast majority
sm> of Jesus cultists who have posted here.
Not to mention the vast majority which seek to instill their evils upon
the innocent around the world.
~*~ God is cool! - Thomas Baird
Yep. Three degrees Kelvin. - Tetzel
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Ebola
|Date: 25 Feb 96 16:06:58
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f8
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 180e6f99
PID: FM 2.02
sa> Besides, you have to change the culture with it...the main reason
sa> it spread so far was the burial rituals of the culture of the people
sa> involved necessitating certain burial rituals (which I do not know
sa> details of) that allowed the transmission through the body fluids.
sm> English Translation: SOMEONE in that culture had to handle the bodies.
The religious ritual of washing the dead.
~*~ Do you have a single SHRED OF EVIDENCE?? Or are you just going
to spew scripture like a busted shitpipe? - Gary Glunz
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: FOF cult UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 25 Feb 96 16:14:08
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f9
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 181219aa
PID: FM 2.02
JB> FoF is a well-heeled hate group who, if they called themselves what
jB> they really are, are no better than the KKK. They HATE...gays, women,
JB> [...] other religions. All in the name of Jesus, of course.
>> Focus on the Family is a Christian organization
sm> A CROOKED Christian profit-making business
sm> masquerading as a non-profit establishment.
Worse than that: They try to enact into law bigotry against innocent people.
The FoF cult was responsible for launching the Prop 2. fiasco in Colorado.
>> that is praised for helping 1000's of souls come to Christ.
sm> In other words, it's been praised for selling fictitious diseases
sm> (usually called "sin") so they can make cash forever selling the
sm> fictitious cure (your "God").
Worse: The FoF cult employs priests which brainwash homosexuals into sexual
dysfunction and then pretend that their inhuman act is a "cure."
sm> Doubtless the praisers were other cult masters,
sm> who are in on the money and profits.......
And who have a vested interest in keeping the world's misery flowing.
~*~ Light doesn't care what time it is. - David Bloomberg
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = gotcha!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 16:17:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2fa
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892946C2
PID: FM 2.02
RM> Doesn't seem surprising does it.
mh> Of course not. Since I posted this, four atheists have explained the
mh> difference: Atheists don't claim to adhere to a moral code, they
mh> explained.
Coming from a member of a death cult with a proven history.
~*~ Why buy toilet paper when bibles are given away free? - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jason Ballard
|Sub: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 25 Feb 96 16:18:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2fb
PID: FM 2.02
> Atrocities... Atrocities? It was murder that they comitted and
in
> the end there will be vengeance. Vengeance on all those who killed our
> kind, those who killed our ways, our beliefs who stole all we had and
> strip us of everything. We have nothing anymore, the only one we pay
> debt to anymore is your so called god. But what about my god, the earth,
> the trees and animals. The gaian theory, Wotan and Ulik. Those were my
> gods, and they seek vengeance.
Is that a gun in your hand, Jason?
~*~ I'll be satisfied when Jesus comes again and takes me away from all
these people who don't care. I expect him any day....actually. Watching
for him on a daily basis, now. - Tenna Draper
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: @1:102/890
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:00:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2fc
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3129e500
PID: FM 2.02
>>> following information about your system (and what ever else you
>>> wish to include, to inform me so that I know before I go forwarding
>>> the information on the my friend.):
FR> Sure thing! Any help I can offer, that's what I'm here for.
>>> In Christ,
FR> Woops! I'm sorry. I don't provide personal information to Christians
FR> due to the hatred, bigotry, intolerance and zealotry that their cult
FR> historically stands for and what it does to inflict misery upon
FR> humanity in contemporary times.
FR> Pleae don't take offense.
dw>
dw>
dw> Jesse'd be *so* proud of you, Fred.
Yes, I was pretty polite for a change. The elitist attitude of theists
who believe that they'll be granted special consideration not afforded to
others if they exhibit their cultism is an audacity I'm unwilling to ignore.
Whether it's signing their posts with Alpha male sodomistic hopes or by
postin advertisements with fish on them, I see an extremism and quest for
recogniztion and respect they haven't earned.
I'll be Goat-fucked if I'll knowing assist an extremist theist.
dw> Michael Hardy is probably spinning in his grave right now.
Hardly's even now trying to defend his Focus on the Family cult. He's too
busy getting utterly debunked to see how his intellectual equals are making
out outside of HolySmoke. }:-}
~*~ it's that the power you worship is an inept, defeated, dog. - Don Geser
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:04:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2fd
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312bc215
PID: FM 2.02
Anthony Grigor-Scott said:
AS> Fortunately for those who love truth,
AS> the Holocaust has been exhaustively researched.
AG> Yes, and proven to be a lie.
To all you Christians: He's one of yours.
~*~ I`m highly offended, being a christian - Spanky Scott
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Violating physics -- use a condom. Staal
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:07:02
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2fe
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 45997dc4
PID: FM 2.02
FR> and that the rest of the world will eventually catch up
FR> to you. You fancy yourself as another Galileo.
b> Ah. That particular form of erroneous mental garbage is
b> called, by cognitive scientists, "jumping to conclusions."
FR> You're only being dishonest to yourself, John. Like any Creationist,
FR> you pretend that science will eventually catch up with you. You're
FR> what Richard Feynman often complained about.
jb> Had you said "a" instead of "any," I'd have passed
jb> it, but since you didn't: I am not a creationist.
Er, yes, you _are_ a Creationist. You adopt an occultic superstition and
then cast about in desperation to find evidence you can use which could
be lied about to support your delusion. You pick words and phrases you
can't understand and concoct wild and elaborate fantasies and call it a
"theory."
Ask the ICR for a grant. I'm sure they'll give it to you.
~*~ I personally would prefer to see the human race go via nuclear war
than
by the takeover of homosexuality... then I wouldn't have to be witness
to this erosion of our society that is now occuring. - George Pope
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Hardy
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:08:39
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2ff
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 627d9151
PID: FM 2.02
> "(Secularists) also get passionate about passion. They have to prove
> themselves, prove that they aren't what they really are: spiritual
> wimps. So they substitute sexual passion for religious passion, and
> become so fanatical about their addiction to it that they practice,
> justify and encourage anything, from sodomy to baby-killing, to
> preserve this 'right.'"
>
> -- Michael Hardy states that we fuck dead babies in the
> ass. His way of claiming the "higher moral ground".
To all you Christians: He's one of yours.
~*~ We'll get his clown suit off some day, I promise you. - Steve Quarrella
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Death Cult
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:12:06
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef300
PID: FM 2.02
> INSULATED FROM SIN
> Read: 2 Corinthians 6:11-7:1
> Abhor what is evil. Cling to
> what is good. -Romans 12:9
INSULATED FROM INHUMAN TYRANNIES
Read: Numbers 31:17-18
"Now therefore kill every male among the little
ones, and kill every woman who hath known man by
lying with him. But all the women children, that have
not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for
yourselves."
~*~ Fundies are like the Borg: Separate them from the rest of the
collective consciousness and they malfunction. :)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Joan would like to clear up some misunderstandings. Pay attention!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:31:22
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef301
PID: FM 2.02
ja> ~*~ Don't take me for an idiot...please...because I am NOT an
ja> idiot. - Joanna Amren (Defending Christanic Creationism myths)
ja> Okay...I have to reply to this.
No you don't. Unless I'm very much mistaken and you're posting from a Christian
church with a gun to your head, you don't have to post anything here at
all. I seriously doubt if any theist -- be her Christanic, Islamic, Jewish,
Pagan, Wiccan, or Goatian -- is forced to post here.
Yet if you wish to explain or take back something you said, I'm willing.
I'm nothing if not magnaobnoxious. If you wish to have a fresh start here
in HolySmoke, sure, let's proceed and see how well you do.
Welcome back!
ja> I've been reading these messages for days now, looking for
ja> something to reply to.:) But I hadn't actually expected
ja> anyone to remember me! Gee how sweet of you!
A great many people are added to the quotes archives, Joan. Let's see what
other quotes of yours managed to make it onto stone -- quotes which will,
by the way, be presented to your deity constructs after you die so pay attention!
DON'T write without thinking about what you're saying.
I made a complete idiot of myself. - Joanna Amren
Welp, first you claimed you're not an idiot. I understand that one of them
was mistakenly typed in. Which one would you like to take back? Are you
an idiot or not? Pick one and I'll remove it from the archives. (Your
deity constructs, don't forget, will probably not be as loving and gracious
as I.)
I tried thinking before, and I almost fell into the same mess YOU
are now in. - Joanna Amren (Defending Christanic Creationism myths)
Yeah, thinking _can_ lead to atheism. Are you going to try thinking
during your "second comming" into HolySmoke? Or are you going
to continue to employ the lack of thought which graced your previous visit
to these educational halls lovingly known as "HolySmoke?"
I'm NOT giving up. - Joanna Amren (Commenting about HolySmoke)
I know I said I wouldn't leave HolySmoke, but I can now see
why everyone else does....ya'll are hopeless! - Joanna Amren
Welcome back! When you fled this forum perhaps you were laboring under
a perception of "giving up" that you have since replaced with another, prompting
you to return. Reguardless of why, I'm happy that you _did_ return. We
missed you and your insight greatly.
ja> I still insist that I am not an idiot.:)
ja> I could have been...then...but not now.
Does that mean you have recognized the lack of evidence for deity constructs
and have come over to the side of light, logic, and reason?
ja> Find a differnt person to pick on.
Interesting. You want to pretend you're being picked on, huh? There's
an easy solution to refrain from making it into the quotes archives, Joan:
Learn from your mistakes.
~*~ They're not evil, they're just.... stupid. - Spaced Invaders
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Death Cult
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:32:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef302
PID: FM 2.02
SA> THE MYTH OF THE APPLE OF DISCORD
SA> Do you believe that?
SA> Taken from the holy book Principia Discordia...
sa> have you gotten the point YET??
gm> The real question is - have *you* gotten the point yet?
The point was quote clear: You are incapable of thinking for yourself so
you post your master's thoughts instead.
Welcome to Christianity.
~*~ When it absolutely, positively HAS to be crucified, overnight.
- Steve Rose
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Death Cult
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:33:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef303
PID: FM 2.02
> WITHOUT A BUMPER STICKER
> Read: Acts 4:5-22
> They saw the boldness of Peter
> and John.....And they realized
> that they had been with Jesus.
> -Acts 4:13
MURDER OF CHILDREN WITHOUT REMOURSE
Read: Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34
"We... utterly destroyed the men and the
women and the little ones."
~*~ You _LEND_ books? I require that borrowers leave hostages in exchange.
- J. J. Hitt.
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:34:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef304
PID: FM 2.02
AS> Speaking of which...I am posting from a different board, but still
AS> within Nashville. If you see this, please respond.
rh> Hey Al! You weren't posting to me, but I saw it.
rh> First thing I've seen from you in AGES!!
rh> I thought the heathens had got you.
We have.
~*~ It only gets better for us when we die... - Scott Brubaker
It gets better for us, too - we no longer have to listen
to fundy morons. - David Worrell
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Free Jim Staal!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:44:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef305
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892B0E2C
PID: FM 2.02
FR> }:-} With his racist, anti-woman and homophobic bigotry,
FR> perhaps us white straight males are safe. }:-}
dc> That's true... Was never quite sure if Labon was Staal.
FR> There remains one question that's difficult to answer: Was he the
FR> hate-filled monkey he is today BEFORE he adopted Christianity, or
FR> did it transpire AFTER? I don't think we'll ever know.
dc> For the discussion, it really isn't a concern as to origin.
If we had hopes of finding the cause so that it could be cured, we might.
dc> The fact that he says he's an xian and continues to spout
dc> his bigotry is evidence that xianity has at best done nothing
dc> to change his slanted views.
Yes, theism of any flavor doesn't seem to do anything to change a person
-- in direct conflict to what MOST of them claim. Atheism also doesn't
change a person yet it doesnt claim to -- still atheists in the prison system
are grossly under represented.
dc> As to it encouraging them, his views, based on his church's
dc> view on women ministers confirms at least that part
dc> of his growing bigotry via his religion.
In #holysmoke it was pointed out that Staal was brought up by an overbearing
woman and that he had problems with drugs and alcohol. He might have joined
the Christian cult before or after he became what he is today. But yeah,
I agree with you. His religion confirms his bigotry.
~*~ God never intended for there to be sex with the same race. - Steve
Lew
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 25 Feb 96 17:46:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef306
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892B0E2D
PID: FM 2.02
DC> it is a religion debunking Echo. Facts, not myths are the
DC> general rule of order.
MM> Hmmmmm what is the purpose in debunking another's faith? If a person
MM> chooses to not have a faith, that is their decision. If a person
MM> decides to have a faith, that is their decision as well.
dc> David Koresh had faith. So did Jim Jones, as well as Adolph Hitler.
"But but but... But that's DIFFERENT!"
I wonder at the many people who ignore the fact that an ideology is proven
deadly and insist that everyone's ideologies should be tolerated.
~*~ It's gods all the way up, turtles all the way down. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Ritual cannibalism
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:00:02
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef307
REPLY: 1:3611/2 0004ddc2
PID: FM 2.02
jo> A person recently told me that the early beginnings of the christian
jo> ritual of holy comminuion were rooted in canabilism. This person
jo> claimed that if you ate the flesh and drank the blood of a person then
jo> you would aquire the attributes of that person.
The Christian practice of ritual cannibalism stems from the ancient belief
that if one eats the heart of one's enemies, one gains their courage and
strength. Eating the heart of easilly-dispatched foes, on the other hand,
yielded a weakening of courage and strength.
Symbolically ritually eating one's deity constructs factors into the tradition
with several interesting twists. Since the deity construct is mythical,
the "strength and courage" one acquires is dictated by the belief that the
cannibalism using grain products is converted into the actual flesh of the
dead deity. Additionally, when the deity construct is an unreachable Alpha
Male superior over the believers, it allows the Christians to merge with
their Alpha Male primate and become "one" with it.
There _are_ books in the library which discuss the uses of cannibalism among
humans.
~*~ Sagan say's there ain't no God but Sagan himself. -- Pat Parrinello
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: The fire
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:03:27
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef308
REPLY: 1:157/200 5602116e
PID: FM 2.02
AS> I also lost most of my paperbacks, which were in bookshelves in
AS> my room...so JJ, I no longer have a complete, or even a partial,
AS> collection of the Fu Manchu stories. I lost my Niven, (except
AS> for Mote in God's Eye), my Farmer, my Clarke, my Heinlein, my
AS> complete Doc Savage collection, many of the Shadow paperbacks
AS> with Steranko covers, etc. Sue Armstrong, I lost my copy of
Goat! I am _truely_ sorry, Al. Are your books insured? And can you replace
all of them that were lost? I can't even begin to imagine what it's like
to lose a library like that. Damn, I'll bet that many of them can't _be_
replaced.
Fuck. Did you find out how the fire started? If it wasn't an accident,
I hope whoever's responsible gets ten years for every volume lost.
~*~ "How many vertebrae do you have? Oh? You've never seen them? Then
you don't have any, you spineless piece of shit." -- J.J. Hitt
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:35:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30a
REPLY: 1:289/80 312C342F
PID: FM 2.02
fR> My guess is you haven't learned any world history. The Christanic
FR> death cult is the single worse deadly tyranny ever created by men.
FR> Christanics have murdered more people than any other cult or any
FR> other ideology or natural disaster save epidemic.
eh> Ok, let me re-phrase. *I* don't go out
eh> and kill people, because it is against my belief.
Great! Glad to hear it! I don't rape and kill because I'm a good person.
I don't require a belief in deity constructs to refrain from doing so.
eh> I can't change what other people have done,
eh> nor will I be held accountable for it.
Oh? People who join the Christian cult knowing what its history has been
and continue to be are in agreement with it. One doesn't join the KKK and
then demand they're not racists, Eric.
~*~ The constitution is not a suicide pact. - Joseph Nagarya
Sure it is, Joe. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: End Times!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:37:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30b
REPLY: 1:123/319 56cb0694
PID: FM 2.02
lj> I hope you realize that the international
lj> bankers are behind us being in Bosnia.
We are not!
lj> Iraq and Iran are next on their agenda.
Not on _my_ copy of the agenda they're not!
lj> "Too bad" that our "children" will have to die, so
lj> that they can make more money, and enslave the world.
lj> All hail! Satan and his New World Order are upon us --
lj> ez. 38, 39, 40; rv. 20: 7-15.
Christanic death cultists certainly wish.
~*~ What makes you think that a consicous, social animal that can invent
a
God to explain the universe could not also develop a code of ethics
by which to live? - Gerry Lemay
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = gotcha!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:39:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30c
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 312c8a82
PID: FM 2.02
DW>> or not. If you tell me "Thou shalt not steal" while using
DW>> unregistered software, however, I'm going to abuse the hell out
DW>> of you.
MH> FOUR admissions that atheists have no morals. This is outstanding!
dw> Get your goddamned head out of your ass, Hardly.
But he finds it warm and comfortable up their.
dw> Besides, as has been pointed out to you, that was a tagline.
I suspect he won't care. He'll continue to rant pathetically.
~*~ A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearanging their prejudices. - David Rice, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:43:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30d
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 312c9310
PID: FM 2.02
AM> In the words of a famous scientist aboard the U.S.S.
am> Enterprize, " I find that highly illogical."
Try "Enterprise." Do you get _all_ your education from television actors
playing scientists, Andy?
~*~ Homosexuality and liberalism IS evil... Both are destined to fail...
- Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:50:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30e
REPLY: 1:271/460 312c3880
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> Look at your own hatred, Ken, and note that the death
FR>> cult you joined has a history that fits you.
Interesting. You elected not to quote your hatred and bigotry this time
around. Gee. Perhaps death cult fundies _are_ capable of learning afterall.
km>> I have no hatred Fred. And I have joined no death cult.
FR> You have basically joined the KKK and then
fr> demanded you're not a racist bigot.
km> No, Fred, I haven't or maybe you missed the part
km> in the Bible that tells us to love everybody?
Woops! The cultist never read his mythologies:
Luke 14:26 is pretty good: "Whoever comes to me and does
not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers
and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my
disciple." (NRSV) See too, Matt. 19:29.
When are you going to actually _READ_ your death cult mythologies, Ken?
~*~ I'm awaiting with bated revulsion your detailed account of the number
of changes that have taken place in Carbon dating over the past 30
years, with some attention paid to whether or not these were
refinements in technique. - Don Martin
Just think about it... why else would they number the types of
carbon dating? - Greg Waggy
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it either, Ken
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:51:25
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30f
REPLY: 1:271/460 312c3947
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> Either drink it or admit you're a fraud.
km>> Go read the Bible and tell me what Christ
km>> said when someone asked him for a sign?
FR> Go read your mythologies and tell me who lied when they claimed
fr> you could drink up and not be harmed.
km> What mythologies?
Pretending ignorance over and above what you already hold to escape the
embarrassing fact that _YOU_ refuse to drink up is silly, Ken. You know
you are afraid to drink because you KNOW that your mythologies are all lies.
Doubt it? Drink.
~*~ Daddy didn't give attention to the fact that Mommy didn't care.
- Pearl Jam
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal probably also believes in McDowell
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:53:10
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef310
REPLY: 1:271/460 312c3a3a
PID: FM 2.02
FR>>> And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
FR>>> it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
FR>>> the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
FR> What utter evil the Christanic death cult is.
km> Where the admission that I would commit such
km> an act Fred, come on, I'm still waiting for it.....
There is it, cultist, reproduced faithfully above. You're an admitted Christanic
death cultist and there you are claiming you would have no problem murdering
your own son when you start hearing voices in your head.
But we know you're only lying. We know you're not a TRUE Christian. We
have discovered together that you KNOW the Christanic mythologies are lies.
~*~ Well godDan! HOLYSMOKE's got more ministers per square foot
than even the most popular brothel in New Orleans. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Hitler wannabees
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:54:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef311
REPLY: 1:271/460 312c3a8e
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> You end up knowing that Adolf Hitler did exactly what Christianity
has
FR>> done to innocent people for the past 2,000 years. You know what the
FR>> history of the Christanic death cult has been and you know that Adolf
FR>> Hitler was simply one Christian among millions who did exactly what
FR>> Christianity is designed to foment.
km>> Shows how much you really know Fred
FR> Which is why I'm intellectually superior to you. }:-}
km> Apparantly not, you keep seeing things that are there.
And you keep pretending to see things which aren't.
The poision, however, remains. Drink up or continue to be called a fraud.
~*~ If it's truth that you want, we can help you to eliminate what is not.
Process of elimination is better than elimination of process.
-Styx Allum
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal and Ken: Homophobic bigots
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:56:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef312
REPLY: 1:271/460 312c3b0e
PID: FM 2.02
fR>>>>>> I am condemning no one. The homosexual who sexually practices
FR>>>>>> his homosexuality condemns himself." - Jim Staal
FR>>>>>> Are you just a liar or are you a liar for Jesus?
js>>>>>> What has the above post to do with hatred and bigotry?
FR>>>>> Perhaps your inability to see your own hatred and bigotry is
FR>>>>> what your problem is. Certainly it's why the Christanic
FR>>>>> death cult has the history it does.
km>>>>> Wait a minute Fred, tell me exactly where
km>>>>> does he say that he hates them?
FR>> And even when I prove to you that your fellow Christian hates Jews
you
FR>> _still_ want to pretend that Christanic hatred expressed by Staal and
FR>> yourself is justified.
km>> Sorry Fred, you've yet to prove that my fellow Christians hated Jews.
FR> I posted a lengthy speech from your fellow Christian Adolf Hitler
fr> where he expresses the same hatred of Jews as you express of
fr> homosexuals.
km> Hitler was not "fellow Christian", Hitler did not follow Christ,
Adolf Hitler was just as much a Christian as you are, Ken. After the history
of the Christanic death cult has been pounded into your mushy head you still
pretend that the death cult _YOU_ joined doesn't really have the history
that everyone knows it does.
And you joined it. When are you going to start rounding up gays and Jews
like your fellow Christian Adolf Hitler, Ken? Right after you hear voices
telling you to murder your son?
~*~