God Damned Fundies!
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: flood
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:45:05
EID:ae0e 205765a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312e8e18
A lone voice in the wilderness, Robert mournfully howled out "flood"
LB> some bozos get that we aren't supposed to be stargazing!
RJ> I haven't heard about this--but I'm not surprised to hear it.
I think that Miller idiot mentioned something about how we'd be
"punished" for engaging in space travel ..
LB> It seems that the Tower of Babel (that is, Babylon) just may have been
LB> real. See, the Babylonians were really big on having to know where the
LB> stars and planets were located as a part of their religion.
LB> Apparently, the Tower of Babel may well have been a giant OBSERVATORY.
LB> they didn't learn much from them about it. Since most cultures,
LB> including Christiandom, explored astronomy primarily from a standpoint
LB> of how it affected their understanding of religious principles, it
RJ> Via astrology. I'm sure a lot of people don't realize the
RJ> reason why Copernicus was forced to postulate a heliocentric
RJ> theory was because he was getting incorrect astrological
RJ> predictions.
I think it also came about because the Babylonians, like the
Egyptians, used starwatching as a way to predict when the big
local river(s) would flood. The idea of astrology likely came
about from this - after all, if you can predict when floods will
occur by looking at stars, why not other things as well? And
enemies (like the Hebrews) would have interpreted such a thing as
"playing God" perhaps and denounced it in their stories.
--Wolfie
Man do not pride yourself on your superiority to animals: they are
without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your
appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after
you.---Fyodor Milkailovich Dostoyevsky
... "I've been in your family since 1532" "So has syphilus. Get out."
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: flood
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:03:06
EID:ae0e 20579860
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312e8e19
A lone voice in the wilderness, Robert mournfully howled out "flood"
DW> Oddly enough, engineering is somewhat of a refuge for "scientific" (I
DW> use that word in its loosest possible sense) minded fundies.
DW> There's just enough mathematics and simple science involved that they
DW> can convince themselves they are experts on *real* science, yet they
DW> don't have to mess with that blasphemous evolution and big bang shit.
RJ> This is a truism. In fact, I had a biomed prof who used the
RJ> first day of all his lectures to _witness_ to students.
RJ> Engin- eering is just *crawling* with jeezoids--except for the
RJ> ones who read the Koran, but some of those guys like to party.
Out of the few engineers/engineering students I've met, most of
those were really right-wing, though I don't think the subject of
religion ever came up. The remaining two (out of perhaps 5 or 6),
though, are more middle-of-the-road types. Not a very big sample,
mind you, but that's the folks I've at least talked to on BBSes.
The most rabid right-wingers, though, seemed to carry their
engineering POV to _everything_, and denigrated anything that
wasn't "hard science" .. including biology. These two (out of the
5 or 6) were about the most arrogant prats I've ever had the
misfortune of coming across.
As for the fundies, I think that engineering simply reinforces
their preconcieved notions that things simply cannot be without an
engineer behind everything, and that goes for the Universe as
well. I've noticed that most Creationist arguments have the
definite tone of engineering arguments - "if a building can't
erect or design itself, how can the Earth?" and they don't seem to
understand that not everything need be engineered.
--Wolfie
Man do not pride yourself on your superiority to animals: they are
without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your
appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after
you.---Fyodor Milkailovich Dostoyevsky
... Copenhagenists only do it if somebody's watching.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Married, Will Cheat
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:19:07
EID:3add 2057aa60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312e8e1a
A lone voice in the wilderness, Ken mournfully howled out "Married, Will
Cheat"
PS>... "From the author of the best selling horror novel, _The Bible_...."
KW> Ya. From the pov of most on this Conference this is probably true.
KW> Problem is, someday it will be for many a historical horror novel.
It already is just that. Just as "Gone with the Wind" is an
historical war novel (ie, fiction about a war that actually
occured in history).
A novel is _always_ a work of fiction.
--Wolfie
Man do not pride yourself on your superiority to animals: they are
without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your
appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after
you.---Fyodor Milkailovich Dostoyevsky
... "I'll be Bach." - Johann Sebastian Schwarzenegger
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Simon Ewins
|Sub: pouring
|Date: 24 Feb 96 13:37:00
EID:515b 20586ca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D439C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Simon Ewins to Michael Hardy <=-
Simon says:
MH> This was not known to the first English translators of the Bible,
MH> including the King James translators in 1611. The older manuscripts
MH> were discovered later. More recent translations include it (because
MH> they'd be accused of covering up if they didn't) with the note that
MH> it doesn't appear in the best manuscripts.
SE> Agreed.
MH> That being the case, Rudzinski's constant "I'll pour" diatribe is
MH> meaningless.
SE> Only when directed at you or any other that recognizes that much of
SE> the gospel is more the 'word of creative men' than the 'word of god'.
Well, I don't hold that to be true about "much of" the gospel. I think
the *original* gospels are neither -- they are accurate history written
by eyewitnesses or the students of eyewitnesses. They are not dictated
by God, but neither are they made up by man.
OTOH, in the case of the existing end of Mark, there is compelling
evidence that it wasn't part of what Mark wrote, but was tacked on much
later. That doesn't cheapen the worth of what Mark did write.
SE> When directed at a mindless automaton who was told that the bible is
SE> true word for word, cover to cover, no questions askable, and believes
SE> it... then it is far from meaningless since it points out quite well
a)
SE> the errors in thinking that are required in order to accept the bible
SE> as 'truth' from cover to cover and b) the hypocrisy of those who claim
SE> to accept it as such but would not test the "I'll pour" theory with
SE> thier own faith.
I suppose that is a valid point. (Grudgingly.)
SE> Now, since you have agreed that at least one portion of the bible is
SE> of doubtful authenticity, how do you manage to determine that the rest
SE> is 'truth'?
SE> Which other bits are not part of "god's truth" and which are, and how
SE> do you tell one from the other?
By using the best evidence we have available. If a passage is included
in the oldest and best manuscripts we have, then I see no reason to
doubt that it was part of the original work. If someone next year finds
an even older manuscript that omits a passage, then that would be
evidence that the passage wasn't part of the original work. So far, the
ending of Mark is the only one I know of that affects the gospels.
This speaks only to whether the passage was what the gospel author
actually wrote, of course. Whether or not it is *true* is another
matter.
SE> How meaningful is the term 'word of god'? Or is it the 'word of god
SE> except for the bit at the end of Mark'?
I try to avoid using that phrase because it has widely varying meanings
to different people. It is what Francis Schaeffer termed a "content
word," meaning that its definition is so nebulous and unfixed that any
discussion of it should start with an agreement as to what it means.
So, to answer your question, the term "word of God" is not very
meaningful at all until the people involved in a particular discussion
agree on a meaning.
SE> If it is known to not be authentic, why is it still in the latest
SE> editions?
You'd have to ask that question of the people who made that editorial
decision. My feeling is that it's because anti-Bible people would
accuse the editors of trying to cover up a difficulty if they simply
dropped it without explanation. Most modern translations do include a
note to the effect that it doesn't appear in the oldest and best
manuscripts, thus letting the reader decide how much credit to give it.
... Jesus saves. The rest of us rack up credit card debt.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: flood
|Date: 24 Feb 96 13:51:00
EID:31c7 20586e60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D439D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Michael Hardy <=-
AM> But would you kill yourself if you knew you were only lying about
AM> time running out?
MH> And that's the key question. The very first Christian martyrs would
MH> have known the resurrection was a lie or myth, if in fact it was --
MH> and yet they suffered and died in defense of it.
SA> The people at Jonestown and Waco also suffered and died for what
SA> they believed in, and they were contemporary to the leaders of their
SA> groups. Just because someone lived at the same time, Michael, does
SA> not mean that they are knowledgeable about what has gone on in that
SA> time from someone else's perspective.
I've made this point about a thousand times, and no one ever
seems to grasp it. Once more:
The resurrection of Jesus was an EVENT!! It was not a claim, such as
the claims made by Koresh or Jim Jones.
Yes, people can be convinced of the truth of claims, even to the extent
that they will die for them. But the resurrection of Jesus has NOTHING
to do with that. It was an event which either happened or didn't.
Koresh said: "I'm thinking of the number three," and people either
believed it or they didn't. No way to confirm it.
Jesus said: "I have written the number three on this piece of paper,"
and people could easily look to see if that was true or not.
Get it?
SA> There is also the matter of illusion...even if there were
SA> witnesses to key aspects of the faith, such as the resurrected body
of
SA> Christ, this does not mean that what they thought they saw was what
SA> they actually saw. Just think of what would happen if someone who had
SA> never been exposed to stage magic saw David Copperfield make the Statue
SA> of Liberty disappear (I think that one was his...I could be mistaken).
SA> Did D.C. really take the Statue away for a short time? Of course
SA> not...but he knew how to make it look as if he had.
There is no reason to think that all eleven remaining disciples, Mar
Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus, James his brother and various
other people all had the same illusion. That's grasping at straws to
avoid the obvious.
Unless you're making the claim that Jesus was an illusionist, in which
case you have to explain why he would do such a thing, where he
disappeared to after the "resurrection" and how he managed to
convincingly fake both his death and his return when Romans were
driving nails into his wrists and sticking spears in his side.
SA> If someone had a very strong belief because of what they thought
SA> they saw, would you agree that they may consider being put to death
SA> for that belief if that was expected of the believers?
Consider how faithless the disciples were before the crucifixion, with
Peter denying he even knew Jesus. Is a fleeting glimpse of someone who
kinda sorta looked like Jesus going to suddenly make such a coward into
a bold proclaimer who endures persecution?
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: fax
|Date: 24 Feb 96 13:59:00
EID:231e 20586f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D439E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> However, the Bible in its original Hebrew, is not incorrect. The word
MH> usually translated "birds" actually simply refers to flying vertebrates
MH> (as opposed to insects.) Apparently the English-language translators,
MH> trying to find a single word to express this, figured "bird" was the
MH> closest they could get.
KS> Oh?? Then why did they go to the trouble of translating all the names
KS> of OTHER kinds of flying creatures? And why would it have to be a
KS> 'single' word? I would bet big odds there is a Hebrew word for
KS> 'bats' as well as every kind of bird found in the Middle East.
Karl, this is what the word means according to a Hebrew-English
dictionary. You are arguing with objective truth here, which is a
pretty stupid thing to do.
MH> You can continue insisting it's an error if you like, but if you do,
MH> you'll be contradicting facts.
KS> It's an error. It plainly says what it says and it's wrong. TS.
What the Hebrew word means in Hebrew is what it means, period, and it
is correct.
... Thanks for your opinion. I hope I can get it off my shoe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: spontaneous abortion
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:23:00
EID:0ab2 205872e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D439F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> LB> makes it completely unviable, etc, etc, etc. It's completely natural
MH> LB> and not brought on by ANYTHING the woman has done -- although kind
MH> LB> hearted souls like you are not above making her FEEL like it's their
MH> LB> fault.
MH> Except that smoking, drinking to excess and using drugs when you're
not
MH> ill *are* self-destructive behaviors. The woman doesn't have to know
MH> she's pregnant to damage the fetus, while doing things that also damage
MH> herself.
KW> Mike, you are out in left field with this. A woman doesn't have to
do
KW> anything to loose baby after baby. You are vicious if you claim that
KW> it is her fault. Women were miscarrying long before tobacco came into
KW> common usage. I would suggest that you do a little research before
KW> you make any more nakedly ignorant and markedly nasty comments like
the
KW> above.
I didn't claim it was her fault, and I know miscarriages can happen
even when the woman does everything right. However, tobacco, alcohol
and some drugs can make the risk higher.
My wife takes several prescription medications, two of which carry
warnings to not use them if you are pregnant or trying to conceive.
Cigarettes and alcoholic beverages also carry such warnings. None of
what I said is wrong; you read more into it than I put there.
I would suggest you make sure I'm saying what you think I'm saying
before you fire off a rebuttal. :)
MH> The point isn't that it's the woman's fault ... the point is that God
MH> isn't aborting babies, as Preston alleged.
KW> My, should we be grateful that you don't consider it our fault?
KW> Perhaps you would advocate keeping women in chains to keep those babies
KW> safe? And then, who would you blame when spontaneous abortions just
KW> kept happening?
This bit of vitriol was uncalled for. I never said, or implied, any
such thing. (First you berate me for, you think, suggesting it's the
woman's fault; then you berate me for specifically saying it isn't.
Sheesh, I guess I just can't win.)
MH> As I read the response, Eric wasn't blaming the woman so much as he
MH> was absolving God (as if God needs our absolution).
KW> I won't accept the blame for my child's death to absolve your vicious
KW> predator of a volcano destruction deity. If he's yours, you keep him.
KW> I don't want anything to do with him or his self righteous,
KW> sanctimonious followers.
OK. God doesn't force anyone to accept him. Just don't try to blame him
when you find heaven's gate locked. You will have had your chance.
... Very funny Scotty. Now beam up my clothes.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:08:00
EID:70f2 20587100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I tried several times to come up with a flippant or humorous
MH> rejoinder to this, but I just can't. It's unmitigated ignorant
MH> bigotry on your
MH> part, and there's nothing funny about it. It's absolutely untrue, and
MH> motivated by raw hatred.
KD> Consider it motivated by being fed up with the Religious Reich.
KD> Buchanan [an idiot cretinist] winning in New Hampshire was the last
KD> straw.
KD> I'm not going to put up with the very words for my belief system, and
KD> that of atheists and pagans, being turned into dirty words while
KD> Christian is undeservedly complimentary.
To stereotype *all* Christians as idiots makes you no better than those
you despise.
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: suff'rin
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:08:00
EID:d75d 20587100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> It is an act of extreme mercy and love. Nothing circular about it.
KD> Then why can't he do something we do every day?
MH> If someone killed your mother, then mockingly demanded you forgive
MH> him just before he killed your father, would you do it?
KD> We're not talking about murder here, Michael, in most people's lives.
KD> We're talking about little things, in some cases things that don't
KD> hurt anyone else like sleeping with a person of the same gender.
"Little things" to you and me, because we aren't perfect either. No sin
is little to a perfectly holy God.
Besides, you insist that humans can "just forgive" sin, and murder is
certainly that. How come your point is suddenly selective? I guess you
just mean that you can freely forgive those sins that you don't think
should be sins at all, but not those other nasty things.
MH> On the other hand, if he kills your mother and then begs your
MH> forgiveness, and you know he really is sorry for what he's done,
MH> could you forgive him without sacrificing the part of yourself that
MH> desires
MH> to see him punished?
KD> I would probably still wish the standard legal procedure be found, and
KD> that would give me closure.
And that's why God needed a sacrifice -- of part of himself -- in order
to make forgiveness freely available to those who choose it.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:11:00
EID:d499 20587160
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Psst. He's not Jim. This much I know for sure.
LB> How? I'm serious -- I'd really like to know for sure. He got me with
LB> Lon -- I always accepted Lon as a seperate person. I have tried to
LB> deal with Mark as seperate, but I have doubts. If you could put those
LB> to rest, I would appreciate it.
MH> Dave Oosterman, who knows Jim personally (they live in the same
MH> town), confirmed that Mark Staal is a different person.
MS> ....WELL FINALLY, thank you for finally finding proof that I am
MS> Not Jim, nor is Lump...Lump is just my nickname and shorter to type
MS> in the "from" spot.
MH> ... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a weakened
MS> body, Pneumonia.
I'm sorry to hear that. My father died of heart disease seven years ago
this month. It's hard to lose a parent.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Rice's pisces
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:13:00
EID:6453 205871a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Hmmmm ... I don't know about that. However, Jim and Mark's styles are
MH> not identical, and I don't think Jim is that skilled an impersonator.
MH> I can usually tell it's him no matter what the name is, and "Lump"
MH> sounds different.
MS> .....the only reason we might sound the same is because we're
MS> brothers just like Dave and Fred rice sound the same(are they the
MS> same?) but we are 2 totally different people...
No, they aren't the same. David is marginally smarter. I guess he
finished high school or something.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: here comes pat
|Date: 24 Feb 96 21:55:42
EID:9c36 2058aee0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-> -=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
->
-> MH> It's a lie. One of his advisors once made a speech to a
-> gun-owners
-> MH> group, and a couple of white supremacists were in the audience.
->
-> Sorry, Mike, this is where you are wrong. Leo, knowing nothing about
-> the discussion here, brought me home the Jacksonville newspaper. The
-> woman who was heading the Florida campaign for Buchanan is the chair
-> person for for the NAAWP, a group that is mainly peopled with
-> KKK'ers who want to look a bit more reasonable.
So? She was fired as soon as Buchanan learned of it. Since he
defended Larry Pratt after the allegations were made about him, I
see no reason to think he fired this woman for something he
had known about all along -- else he would have fired Pratt too.
Do you imagine that a candidate for national office has the
ability or time to personally investigate and approve each and every one
of the thousands of volunteers who help with campaigns?
Also, I'm pretty sure she wasn't the head of his campaign for the whole
state of Florida, but just one region, making it even more likely that
he didn't know of her other sympathies.
This is simply a case of people who oppose what a candidate stands for
blowing things all out of proportion in an effort to smear the
candidate.
I'm not necessarily a Buchanan booster, but I do oppose unfair
criticism. If the fair criticism of him is sufficient, no one should
have to resort to implications and exaggerations.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3625/470 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roland
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 24 Feb 96 15:03:22
EID:4764 20587860
** Quoting Elliott Finesse to Roland **
E> In a message dated 02-13-96 Roland wrote to Anthony Grigor-Scott:
E>
E> > Since I am a Christian, it is difficult for me to even speculate that
E> > of made an error. But i am also very Scientificaly minded.
E> > I do not think the Carbon-14 dating method is perfect....However i
do
E> > that it is normally `close enough'. And these test have shown that
th
E> > large gap in time between man and dinosaurs.
E>
E>
E> No, not Carbon-14 dating. Your conclusion is correct, however. Just not
E> for the reason given.
E>
E> ---
E> TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
E> "If you don't have a choice, then you don't have a problem"
E> * Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
E> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 3615/50 51
Then do enlighten me, what is the reason?
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 2330/20 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roland
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 24 Feb 96 15:10:18
EID:2253 20587940
** Quoting Anthony Grigor-Scott to Roland **
A> Dear Brother Roland,
A>
A> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
A>
A> R> I do not think the Carbon-14 dating method is perfect....However
i do
A> R> think that it is normally `close enough'.
A>
A> Brother, they have carbon dated contemporary things to millions of years
A> old. Just takle God at His Word.
A>
A> R> Also how can you explain that dinosaur and man fossils have never
been
A> R> found in the same relative area, at the same depth indicating that
A> R> both existed in the same time frame.
A>
A> But they have.
A>
A> R> And if man did exist at the same time as dinosaurs, would we not
have
A> R> been prey to them?
A>
A> I suppose they did.
A>
A> R> And would not some human fossils have been found with teeth and claw
A> R> marks on the bones?
A>
A> I don't see why.
A>
A> Kind regards,
A>
A> Anthony Grigor-Scott
A>
A> --- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
A> * Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
A> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 361/50 51
Dinosaur teeth marks have been found on smaller fossils indicating that
dinosaurs preyed on them. Had humans existed at that point in time, it is
logical to conclude that humans also would have been prey; and would be
found
with teeth and claw marks. Since no human remains have ever been found
with
these marks it is also logical to conclude that dinosaurs and humans never
co-existed on this planet.
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 2330/20 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: seedy CD
|Date: 25 Feb 96 00:12:03
EID:6004 20590180
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 312fa992
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B1
-=| On 22 Feb 96 21:13, Michael Hardy said: |=-
DO>> Jerk. BTW, I'm listening to the new CD as I type. So far it's
DO>> the whoop!
MH> I hope that means it's good. :)
Indeed!
MH> My faves are tracks 1-14. The rest of it isn't so hot. :)
:)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/45 500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:11:20
EID:5478 20567160
MSGID: 3:711/933 312c7a21
Dear AL SCHROEDER,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Why, Anthony, I do believe you are losing your temper.
Not at all ... Just obeying the words of my Savior, `be angry and sin not'.
AS> Too bad Jesus said to call one's spiritual brother a fool puts one in
AS> danger of the "fires of hell".
But the evidence clearly demonstrates you are not related to me Spiritually
- not as yet having been born into the Family.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 711/933 809 808 409 690/660 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: Samhain old shit/4
|Date: 24 Feb 96 20:36:00
EID:92f8 2058a480
MSGID: 1:128/50 3127DF58
KW> LW>I don't know anyone who has undergone a Queening, though I
KW> probably qualify.
I'm 47, never married, never had kids. One of my friends ¨asked
me today why. I'm not totally clear on this, but I suspect that ¨I was
as big a mystery to the male population as I was unsure of them. ¨(And
refused to be more than friend/sisterly to them.)
KW> Linda, you have gifted me with the most amazing vision of Pat B. in
KW> pink
KW> satin toe shoes. I thank you.
I try to be useful!
Him and Will Perkins and the whole of Focus on the Fallicy...Family.
--- QuickBBS 2.76 Ovr
* Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 128/50 203 1300 1 190 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Larry Meyering
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: Re: End Times!
|Date: 24 Feb 96 08:37:46
EID:5f85 205844a0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1604
-=> Quoting Larry Jansen to All <=-
LJ> I hope you realize that the international bankers are behind us being
LJ> in Bosnia. Iraq and Iran are next on their agenda. "Too bad" that
LJ> our "children" will have to die, so that they can make more money, and
LJ> enslave the world.
LJ> All hail! Satan and his New World Order are upon us -- ez. 38, 39, 40;
LJ> rv. 20: 7-15.
Long Live The New World Order.
Larry
... Paul fell down, broke his head...and *then* saw a god.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Re: JIM STAAL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 16:51:00
EID:a041 20558660
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e55
-=> Quoting Sean McCullough to George Rudzinski <=-
> BTW if this goes through, throw a ceramic owl my wife's way every Oct
> 9th and Christmas. My wife is an owl junky. I've got owl towels, owl
> places mats, owl coasters, owl figurines all over the place and a three
> foot ceramic owl lamp with no guts, shade and short one eye.
SM> That lamp sounds as if my cat had gotten to it..... :-)
Sean,
A cat? I have seven cats. Patches, One Eye, Whiskey, Yoda, Tigre, Yegzi,
and
my baby, Lucky.
SM> Swordsie HATES owls. In her wild days, she had been attacked by one.
SM> Today, she has no truck with them AT ALL.
> ... Dole! For Family Values, we don't want sex in the White House.
SM> Love. It.
Now if I could get enough people to love what I write to pay for what I
write.
george
... Bob Dole is almost, well, lifelike.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 21 Feb 96 16:55:09
EID:10ba 205586e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e56
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to George Rudzinski <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, George Rudzinski mumbled "Question"
GR> I've asked this question before. And I'm going to ask it again.
GR> Are there any Black users of this echo?
GR> Or is this echo the conversvative version of "Whiteland"?
PS> Does it make a difference?
Preston,
Well it does to me. I like to think that I'm talking to America, and that
includes black people. I mean I know that I'm talking to gays and women
on
this echo, I would like the dialouge to include blacks as well.
george
... "Dole 96! Dole 96!" Gee, he doesn't look a day over 72.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:48:53
EID:9117 20562e00
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e57
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> Or is this echo the conversvative version of "Whiteland"?
MH> What are you, some kind of racist?
Yeah! I'm a racist, I'm interested in seeing that all races participate.
MH> Why should it matter?
If there are no black people posting here, something is wrong.
george
... I don't have time to go to church, I've got to clean my rifle.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Play catch-up
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:56:14
EID:ffdd 20562f00
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e58
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Ryan Shaw <=-
RS> You are obviously not familiar with the power that the 12 Jewish
RS> bankers have over all members of this conference.
RS> To change a subject heading would be an impossible task.
MM> Ok, so I will have to do this the hard way..... I'll play catch-up and
MM> read as many as I can to learn the different posters and their
MM> respective characters.
Ms Maiden,
I'm the nasty son-of-a-bitch who thinks all people who believe in imaginary
things are MORONS! I'm rude, intollerant of stupidy, about as subtle as
a
stiff dick and as sensitive to people's feelings as a spring clamp on a
guy's
nuts.
I thought I would save you some time figuring out what my character is like.
BTW, welcome to the echo.
george
... Christianity: mental loitering with intent.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:01:08
EID:3c34 20563020
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e59
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Sean McCullough <=-
SM> both rabies and tularemia, and have the same resilience to bubonic
SM> plague as their house-rat cousins (Rattus Norvegicus var. and R.
SM> rattus var.). You DON'T want to eat them -- a case, just like that
SM> for pork, on the threat being that of eater being too biologically
MM> Rats! Did someone say Rats?? That gets my attention. I probably
MM> wouldn't want to eat one either..... I'd feel like most people would
MM> eating a puppy.
Full?
I'm way too close to a rat to eat one. heheh
SM> itpersonally!! And BY NO MEANS reduce yourself to their level (except
SM> as obvious
SM> recreation! :).
MM> Hmmm that recreation could get tempting at times.
SM> trouble obtaining same (if you're the same Masochistic Maiden I know
SM> and love).
MM> That's who this is. I haven't run across another with the same alias
MM> anywhere yet.
SM> the titular subject) there is also informed debate on all facets of
SM> religion-impacted life going on here.
MM> Hmmmmm that sounds like what I'm looking for!
Dive right in.
SM> We call it the "HolySmoke Smorgasbord". You choose which subsets of
SM> the discussion you want to participate in. If you feel the fare is
SM> poor on scholarly discussion, YOU bring some up.
MM> I think I can play that game.... however, listening to the uh.....
MM> tripe people are throwing at each other will get... well at least
MM> annoying.
Probably one of our redeaming features. Being annoying is much better than
being deadly.
george
... "Dole 96! Dole 96!" Gee, he doesn't look a day over 72.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:12:57
EID:38f7 20563180
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5a
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Jason Ballard <=-
JB> pay debt to anymore is your so called god. But what about my god, the
JB> earth, the trees and animals. The gaian theory, Wotan and Ulik. Those
MM> I think possibly you assume too much. I have not stated a religious
MM> pathway, nor a chosen diety. So, why the attack?
That statement makes me think you are a Christian, they claim to whine very
easily.
Is it possible that
MM> your desire for vengence has created a tendency to jump to conclusions
MM> and judge people a bit quickly?
Definately Christian.
MM> Wotan, isn't that the Teutonic form of Odin? A rather interesting
MM> All-father who dealt well with self-sacrifice in hanging on a tree to
MM> receive a sacred alphabet known as Runes. I think I see some desire
MM> for communication in that sacrifice. And communication is a good
MM> first step to diplomacy. I think I'd have liked him.
JB> yet we are among the cruelest race of creatures alive, god is no more
JB> crueler then what he has made man.
MM> So, why do we maintain this hostility?
It prevents armed conflict. Well documented in the animal world, it is
called
posturing.
JB> it comes down to this. There can only be one religion to the
JB> christians why can they let us go our seperate ways instead of trying
JB> to become a monarchy so there plagued religion can take over the
JB> world.
MM> Well, while I do realize that there are some Christians who push for
a
MM> religious/social government union, I do not think they are necessarily
MM> a majority.
Now I know for sure you are a Christian, you just aren't one of those
Christians. You are providing yourself with some wriggle room when one
of
your well meaning but sadly mis-guided brethren starts pumping lead into
people on orders from god.
Maybe they are just highly vocal? (I can tell this is a
MM> emotional response, you have begun to use run-on sentences in a
MM> similar manner that I may do at times.)
JB> I pray for forgiveness to the earth, the trees, the land, they
JB> suffer because of us, the animals, the seas, the streams and oceans
JB> are flooded and filled with our hatred. There is no longer a thing as
MM> So, do you only pray, or do you also give volunteer time to clean-up
MM> opperations? Is attention to waste of extinguishable products of
MM> importance to you? We have a local Clean-Stream team that is entirely
MM> volunteer staffed. I'm sure Gaia appreciates the efforts given by
MM> each person.
I prefer to keep the stream from getting dirty in the first place and putting
people who dirty the stream in prison.
JB> are flooded and filled with our hatred. There is no longer a thing as
JB> peace, hatred as filled this earth and no one can stop that now.
MM> The world is NOT completely filled with hatred as long as some of us
MM> refuse to harbor that emotion. It may be more difficult to act on our
MM> beliefs than it is to discuss them. I just don't want to waste time
MM> on destructive attitudes.
Then stay away from religion, it is a mind killer.
JB> There is nothing but constant hate, braught on by your religions,
JB> there use to be no hate no indifferences until this so called thing
JB> religion came, we were just ordinary creatures, like dogs and birds,
MM> I feel that hatred is more likely the result of inner anger that
MM> hasn't been dealt with.
More Christian drivel.
Every religion I have looked at teaches the
MM> same rules of respect for others, integrity, honor, knowledge, and
MM> experience under a canopy of love.
And every religious killing is done in the name of love.
The representatives of every faith
MM> that I have visited range from those filled with intolerance and
MM> hatred to those who use thier time to further thier own growth.
Not much growth in believing in things that don't exist.
Inside
MM> and outside the religious world you find intolerance existing side by
MM> side with tolerance. I think it's more of a personal choice.
Then why do people use god to justify intolerance?
george
... 1-800-Go-Pat-Go. Contribute to the working man's hero!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Beliefs.
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:18:37
EID:9431 20563240
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5b
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Shelby Sherman <=-
MM> Hello, Thanks for the reply.
MM> Hmmmmm what is the purpose in debunking another's faith?
SS> That's what this echo is about. You have a simple choice. Either
SS> livewith it or find another echo.
MM> I have a third choice, participate in the echo to exchange points of
MM> view, without trying to arrive at who's faith is better than who's.
Why bother with faith in the first place? It is a waste of time. What
is, is,
and what isn't, isn't. No amount of faith has ever changed that.
MM> I still would like someone to answer the question, what is the PURPOSE
MM> in debunking another's faith.
Why growth of course! As a child outgrows the need for Santa so too must
our
race out grow the need for gods. The sooner we realize that there isn't
some
nicer place to go after we die, the sooner we will realize that what we
do here
is all that matters. When we realize that we will concentrate on the here
and
now instead of wasting time on that which does not exist.
If there is an entire message area
MM> devoted to such a practice there must be a purpose. What need or
MM> desire is met by the practice?
Again the answer is growth.
SS> What do you believe in?
MM> Ummmmm maybe curiosity? Certainly I am a curious person. I hold honor,
MM> integrity, knowledge, and experience beneficial in life. I find value
MM> in scientific and mythic works. I'm pretty much in favor of freedom
of
MM> speech, yet appreciate respectful conversation above namecalling.
I
MM> return the question> What do you believe in?
Not a damn thing. I put away my belief toys a long time ago.
george
... National Center for Missing & Abused Children. Call 1-800-THE-LOST.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Subject Headers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:22:15
EID:0bdb 205632c0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5c
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
RM> Don't bother trying to fit in. The place is a disaster area,
MM> Hmmmm then perhaps I should buy my modem a hard hat?
Hasn't Styx sent you your asbestos underwear?
RM> everythingis all jumbled up, and there's no place to fit in anyway.
MM> OK, so that's why I seem to see so many elbows being sharpened!
MM> Everyone is vying for position and only the hardy survive? This echo
MM> should exhibit the behavioral patterns of evolution then?
And believers don't normally last too long.
RM> Just be you and chat. (BTW, being a masochist is probably an
RM> advantagearound here).
MM> Yeah, my real worry is that I may not be Sadistic enough to enjoy the
MM> battle.
Knowledge can only be gained by knock-down drag-out bar brawls.
george
... Typical fundie, kill his god for him and he doesn't even thank you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:43:31
EID:38f7 20563560
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5d
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Jason Ballard <=-
JB> It is true that people believe what they want to believe, but
JB> to teach them a lie, to fill there heart with lies and make them
JB> believe in lies. Turn them from what they really are, the animals
MM> Ummmmm, silly question here, but what lies are you worried about? It
MM> seems to me that differences of perspective are often called lies by
MM> those who insist that only one way can be the truth.
Normally only one way can be the truth.
JB> believe in lies. Turn them from what they really are, the animals
JB> look at us and say what the hell has become of you? Why can't you be
JB> yourselves who you truly were meant to be, if god intended us to live
MM> Oh, yummy, a dog eat dog world. Ummmm this may sound strange, and I
MM> don't want to be offensive here, but isn't intolerance,
MM> overgeneralization, and such exactly what you hold against organized
MM> religion?
Nope! Organized religion is the use of fear of mortality as a form of control.
It is an insidious cancer that profits from doubt.
JB> in peace, then he would create one surpreme religion so why thare
JB> there so many beliefs? Why has religion changed so much throughout
MM> As an expression of diversity? As an expression of the drive for
MM> power over others? As a restraint for those who lack power over the
MM> self?
That is why we have a system of justice.
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
JB> all born pagans in the beginning why changed beliefs, christians are
JB> the supremacists they fight for there religion to take over the world
JB> and don't try to tell me other wise I have seen it with my own eyes
MM> Hmmmm I've seen religious, and non-religious organizations attempt at
MM> controlling the masses.
True, but the non-religious have to make there case, they can't pull god
out
of their ass when their arguments fail.
Just as once the Pagani of Rome forced
MM> members identified with new religious thoughts into the arena with the
MM> Lions or otherwise discriminated against those who were different, the
MM> Christians of later times hung, burned, and pressed people who they
MM> saw as different.
Anyone the Romans killed, did so for reasons of political stabilization
for
the most part. If you paid your taxes and obeyed the law, they didn't
much
care what you believed in.
No one group can throw mud without it winding back
MM> up in their own face. I've had proselytizing groups of everything
MM> from Seventh-Day-Adventists, to Dianetics adherants arrive at my door.
Get a garden hose and a reputation of being willing to use it. Hey! It
worked for me.
MM> They have all respectfully left when I said I perfered not engaging
in
MM> discussion with them at that time. Amazingly few return at a later
MM> date.
Try living in the capital city of the CRC. Those folks will pray for you
on
your porch while you are hosing them down.
JB> humans color of the skin doesn't make a difference, but to the bible
JB> it says that there is a difference, we are all the same creature no
JB> difference then all the rest, but dogs and cats no gods do they pray.
JB> You don't see an animal praying, and if all men can go to heaven why
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
MM> I don't want to sound like a school teacher, but I'm having problems
MM> telling exactly what you are trying to say. "but dogs and cats no god
MM> do they pray." Is a little scrambled. Do you mean that dogs and cats
MM> do not pray? If that is your meaning, how do you know? Can you read
MM> their thoughts; do you know their language well enough to discuss such
MM> matters with them?
A little observation of the animal world should be enough to show you they
are
short one god.
I prefer to simply respect them a fellow
MM> creatures and not anthropomorphize their thoughts. Some things we
MM> simply do not have the skills to discern at this stage of our
MM> development.
JB> how they brag and brag, how they want there money, god doesn't need
JB> there money, we don't need god, we need ourselves, we don't need a
JB> god to watch over us when we can all watch over ourselves. We all
MM> I respect any person who values independance, but such assuridity of
MM> one's own self-sufficiency sounds a lot like the bragging you
MM> mentioned at the beginning of the statement. Do you see needing
MM> others as a form of weakness and vunerability?
Needing something that doesn't exist is a form of not only weakness but
illness.
All we have is ourselves, each other, and the world we live in. No big
sky
daddy is going to make this place work, only we can do that.
Is it difficult for
MM> you to rely on friends, nursing staff, mechani, or grocer when you do
MM> not have the means to supply all your own needs?
That is not what he was talking about.
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
JB> all born pagans in the beginning why changed beliefs, christians are
MM> Again, I feel like I'm maybe not getting the full meaning of your
MM> sentences. Do you mean that since we are all born without formed
MM> belief systems that we should remain in that state?
Absolutely!
Hmmmmmm I wasn't
MM> born with the ability to feed myself either....
Sure you were, you were hard-wired with a rooting reflex.
should I still be
MM> being fed today? Beliefs are learned material that we choose to
MM> follow... or ignore as the case may be.
Beliefs are lies told children when adults either don't have the answers
or
are afraid to tell children the real answers. "Grandpa went to heaven to
be
with Jesus." When in reality, grandpa got recycled and is feeding the friggin'
worms as nature intended.
The former is garbage the latter is the truth.
JB> must become a supreme race of beings, but religion changes that, the
JB> wars, the scars of the past nothing can be changed, and yet the war
JB> continues within, there will never be anymore peace, so why not fight
MM> The scars of the past can be soothed when the current members of
MM> society refuse to repeat the actions of the past.
That is why I'm an atheist.
What war continues
MM> within you? Why do you feel such deep hostilities that you are
MM> willing to engage in the very type of action you despise?
Because we are all human and have to fight those hostilities each day, every
day. That is part of who we are and we better learn to live with it and
control it.
MM> During this post you have said you need no god (God as you choose),
MM> yet have seemed very emphatic that you want one. Why?
He still needs to grow. If he hangs around us old time Smokers will take
him
there.
JB> back.. They want to rip me of my beliefs then i'll fight them to the
JB> end.. Take care friend.
MM> Who wants to? Only you can cause your beliefs to be less fulfilling
MM> for you. Hey? since you said you need no god, why would you be
MM> willing to fight for something you do not need? I'm confused again.
Don't be, planet worshippers get weird.
george
... Jesus to crowd: "No! I said picnic not pick nits! Damn apes." gr/DC
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Friends?
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:47:10
EID:da24 205635e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5e
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Jason Ballard <=-
JB> continues within, there will never be anymore peace, so why not fight
JB> back.. They want to rip me of my beliefs then i'll fight them to the
JB> end.. Take care friend.
MM> Ummmmmmm there can only be peace if we choose to be peaceful. Who is
MM> the they that want to rip your beliefs away?
I'm one of 'em.
That is really an
MM> impossible task.
It has been done before.
They (whoever they are) may discuss various belief
MM> systems, or even pass legislation against practices, but nothing, nor
MM> anyone, except yourself can change your beliefs. They are an act of
MM> choice that can remain in privacy without them becomming less
MM> fulfilling to you. That there should never be a need to maintain
MM> silence on ones beliefs, is certainly an acceptable goal.
MM> I'm a little uncomfortable sharing the category of friend with you.
I
MM> choose my friends from a less hostile group of people,
Ah! You prefer dullards and sheep.
Then you are wading in the wrong pool here. Most of us prefer sharks, you
learn from sharks or get eaten by them.
george
... The difference between God and a weasel. I've seen a weasel. gr
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: One Staal (Under his god)
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:53:11
EID:62e6 205636a0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5f
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Fredric Rice <=-
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
NS> Fredric Rice > Norbert Sykes : One Staal (Under his god)
FR> And another twenty took its place.
ns> Well, there's your problem...you got the porch
ns> light on. Attracts all kinds of loathsome bugs...};)
FR> I'm gonna have to install some no-fundy strips and some fundy-zappers.
NS> The zappers are better. The strips don't kill then instantly, so
NS> they're free to annoy for a while. Good thing you aren't putting
NS> up Fundy Paper . . . a score or two of Fundies stuck to gummed
NS> paper screaming `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!' over and over is no
NS> picnic.
Norbert,
With a woman and a case of beer it could be.
You really have to crank up the radio and then your
NS> neighbors complain. Better a quick death, I think . . .
Hell with the radio, just have sex, what do you think the neighbors are
going
to listen to?
george
... 1-800-Go-Pat-Go. Contribute to the working man's hero!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 228/500 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Who cares?
|Date: 24 Feb 96 18:14:59
EID:73a7 205891c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 0f2f9fae
REPLY: 03059800
On (21 Feb 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Les Wilcox...
LW> Would you like to make a $50.00 donation to the ministry so I
LW> can register this copy of Wave Rider? If not I'll just answer
LW> you on line so that you'll drop this subject.
AS> Les, I have offered to send you, on my expense, a copy of a
AS> freeware mail reader called SLMR, on a disc. I might have to
AS> wait a little while while I get my new computer system, but
AS> the offer still stands.
LW> What does your god tell you, Ceppa?
AS> More importantly. What does God tell us in the Bible?
I'm sure the Bible doesn't tell you to put makeup on pimples, so
the neighbors won't know you have them. That's all that sending
him that disk will do; it won't make him one whit more honest. In
fact, I could convincingly argue that he'll be less honest,
because he'll then be covering up his dishonesty.
... Awright, who peed in the gene pool?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 105/40 50 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Austin Miles
|Date: 24 Feb 96 18:17:59
EID:e41b 20589220
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 0c3e476d
REPLY: 0305B84E
-On (21 Feb 96) Al Schroeder wrote to David Rice...
AS> once or twice invited me to her church, I invited her to
AS> mine, but she was a little far gone for my tastes. There were
AS> a few others here, but that was about the time I was reading
AS> a Greek-English word-for-word commentary of the New Testament
AS> in the breakroom, and I saw one or two start to approach me,
AS> and then think better of it.
Austin Miles was a minister in the Assembly of God Church. The
church didn't exactly take away his wife and child; what it did
was make such a stink over him by spreading lies about him in
order to attempt to whip him into line, that his family got fed up
with his obsessive attempts to clear his name while ignoring them.
While I don't in any way hold the AoG church blameless in the
matter, I do hold that Austin Miles had more than a casual
connection to the outcome, which was the loss of both his wives
and his daughter.
The book is titled _Don't Call me Brother_, ISBN 0-87975-507-5.
It's a fairly easy read, and might provide you with some
entertainment. But don't look for any deep insights into his
character, because he was and is seemingly incapable of deep
introspection, and spends altogether too much time and page-space
blaming everybody but himself for his troubles. Actually, much
of his headache was a product of his inability to know when to
cut his losses (i.e., perseveration).
David tells us he has once again joined the AoG movement. I've
read nothing to confirm or deny that assertion in any of my
secular/skeptic/atheistic reading, which is considerable. That, of
course, does not mean David is mistaken; it just means I can't
confirm the claim.
... Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 105/40 50 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: spontaneous abortion
|Date: 24 Feb 96 19:02:51
EID:abc8 20589840
MSGID: 1:207/212 25c2ad0a
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 85c7c590
On (23 Feb 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael Hardy...
KW> Mike, you are out in left field with this. A woman doesn't have to
do
KW> anything to loose baby after baby. You are vicious if you claim that
KW> it is her fault. Women were miscarrying long before tobacco came into
KW> common usage. I would suggest that you do a little research before
KW> you make any more nakedly ignorant and markedly nasty comments like
KW> the
KW> above.
I've learned from a friend who had several miscarriages that she is very
sensitive to pitocin [one of the drugs doctors give you to induce
labor]. Guess what contains pitocin?
Semen!
... Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: FOF "hate" 3
|Date: 24 Feb 96 19:10:40
EID:917f 20589940
MSGID: 1:207/212 435b0dae
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892C4389
On (23 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Judith Bandsma...
MH> With, as I recall, the insistence that abortion be pushed as a backup
MH> method of in case contraception fails. "Reproductive rights" in
MH> America is usually a code word for abortion; I see no reason to doubt
MH> that it
MH> is at least partly that in this case too.
Reproductive rights means just that. ALL reproductive rights - to engage
in consentual relations, to conceive, or to prevent or end pregnancy.
JB> using to kill babies and give condoms to kids.
JB> [Non-inflammatory rhetoric, eh, Mike?]
MH> It is inflammatory. It is also true.
No babies are killed. Babies are born and breathe.
JB> By the way, President Clinton recently repeated his campaign
JB> statement that "abortion should be safe, legal and rare."
JB> How can he utter those farcical words at the very moment he
JB> is involved to his eyeteeth in the promotion of abortion in
JB> every nation on earth?
MH> A good question.
Promotion does not equal ensuring legality. One can ensure the legality
of firearms without promoting their ownership.
MH> Another good point. If Dobson strongly disagrees with the values
MH> pushed at the conference, Judith, why doesn't he have the right to
MH> say so
MH> without being branded a hatemonger?
Because not one of his views or arguments is based on facts. He is lying
to make those he opposes look wrong. And since he does it deliberately,
it is hatemongering.
... ///////||||||||||||||| Oh No! Tagline dominos! Run!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: An interesting situation
|Date: 25 Feb 96 05:14:26
EID:b58f 205929c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62ae7074
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ed65feb1
JH>> You can use IPA if you want to, I'm partial to sodium
JH>> hydroxide.
KW> You are missing the insult value.
I don't care about the insult value. I want to eat the flesh off of
the front of his skull. Lye doesn't fuck around.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 25 Feb 96 05:18:10
EID:35db 20592a40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62ae74f8
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b441a23b
KW> Bound slave girl salt and pepper shakers, I'd guess.
JH>
JH> That WOULD sell!
KW> We'll display them on the shelf right next to that light up
KW> plastic jesus.
And the Elvis vibrators that play "Love me tender".
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Satanista, no! Pindeho, s
|Date: 25 Feb 96 05:20:30
EID:b507 20592a80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62ae7c69
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 38f5c461
KW> Maybe you didn't recognize it because off the top of my head, I
KW> mangled the spelling. It's Valiente, Doreen Valiente. She
KW> admits that she is the author of the wording of a good deal of
KW> Gardnerian ritual, but claims that the basic framework was
KW> already in place and very old when she was initiated by
KW> Gardener.
Name is vaugely familiar...
I'm going to have to make a trip into the Closet of Boxed
Up Paperbacks.
I may be gone for a few days.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Buchanan Bashing!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 05:31:21
EID:f938 20592be0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62ae92cf
REPLY: 1:123/319 56ccea64
MC> Did you hear that "kike" Koppel trying to crucify Pat on
MC> Nightline?
Does he need any help?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Brian Shreve
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Get Saved!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 03:43:04
EID:39f2 20591d60
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 31302f28
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca8c
JP> Your belief that underlies the rest of your beliefs,
JP> is that you believe you are competent to judge God.
Ask a serious question, make a serious statement, what do I get
in return? Please spare me your judging. With the likes of you,
I'd of been sentenced to hell already.
I ask a sincere question, does god exist? How does that signify
that I'm judging anything, or for that matter, who said or implied
what I said was competent or incompetent? No don't answer that, I'm
not here to discuss what I did not say or imply.
Shoo, you are bothering me. Go play your silly games with someone else.
I'm looking for answers, not foolishness. My note in which you responded
to was deadly serious. Got it? Hope so.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/113 26 992 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Theist hypocrisy or tuggi
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:149e 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332a5
Michael Hardy wrote:
MH>Then you admit, along with Brian Kolacy, that there is no reason for
MH>atheists to be moral, other than their personal choice to be.
MH> A third admission that atheists have no reason to be moral.
MH> FOUR admissions that atheists have no morals. This is outstanding.
----
Please Mike! You are going to put me in to irony overload! Not that I
haven't seen similar - and worse - examples of dishonesty from the
God-fearing. _But_ something tells me you are trolling here .....
In case anyone missed the first three episodes: Mike unilaterally
concluded that the statements of a certain non-believer indicated the lack
of a reason to be moral other than "their personal choice to be."
There was nothing in the words he quoted that would give rise to that
interpretation. Essentially it was a straw man fallacy.
Mike did the same thing to another non-believer. And although he said it
confirmed the first, his conclusion omitted "...their personal choice to
be." (see MH quotes at the top of this message) - a subtle change of words
but a significantly different conclusion.
In his 4th time at bat, Mike went completely postal, changing his
assertion from atheists have "no reason to be moral" to atheists "have
no
morals." Slight change in wording - completely different conclusion.
The subtle alteration of the text in stages to reach the "no morals"
conclusion is not possible by accident, or even through a reckless
disregard for the truth.
Ergo: Mike is consciously being sophistical, committing what the Institute
of Propaganda Analysis calls an "unethical deception." Someone determining
anothers lack of morals by applying such over-the-top dishonesty exudes
irony of such unusual potency it is almost too bad to be true.
I think Mike is chain-yanking here, though I can't offer any evidence for
that conclusion (other than the intuitive power of my right-hemisphere
dominated brain. And my high school football injured knee is starting to
acting up. Oh wait a minute. That means it's going to rain...).
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Q. Why is the universe here? A. Where else would it be?
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 215/33 130 200
SEEN-BY: 215/400 427 705 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 215/130 200 705 270/101 218/801
|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:5acc 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332af
In a message dated 02-22-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> >> Sure I was, maybe I should make myself a little more specific? Whi
> >> church conducted the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the witch hunt
>
> EF> Ken, at the time of the Crusades there was only one Christian chu
> EF> Inquistion was conducted by the Catholic church. Witch hunts were
> EF> bag, church-wise. Did you have a point to make?
>
KM> Point to make, yes I do. If you trace my
KM> church back to it's beginnings you'll find
KM> that that same church persecuated many from
KM> faith or church. No matter what church they
Your church did??
KM> belong to, anyone committing these kind of
KM> acts are not Christians. To be a Christian
KM> means to be more Christ like, and they were
KM> not being Christ like.
Well I know it sounds logical, but it isn't. Why? Because by your
definition, no Christian ever did an un-Christ-like act. Ever!
Not because they are all so moral, but because the moment they did
something un-Christ-like they ceased being Christians.
It is a circular argument.
No true Christian ever committed a sin.
How do you know this?
Because if they did they were no Christian
How do you know this?
Because no true Christian ever committed a sin.
How do you know this?
Because if they did they were no Christian
etc etc forever and ever.
You can use the very same type argument to "prove" no politician ever
committed a dishonest act, all murderers are insane (and thus should be
hospitalized and treated), every Italian is a great lover, whatever.
Frankly, I sympathize with your position. I have a great deal of respect
for anyone who is willing to put the effort into emulating Jesus's more
sublime teachings. Damn few Christians I've encountered even pretended to.
But if you held the definition of Christian to strict Christ-like behavior
guidelines you could probably fit the entire church membership in a Pacer
with room left over for a couple of baskets of fish and loaves.
You see, your definition doesn't account for things like sin and
repentance. Does a Christian stop being one when he sins? Does he become
one again when he repents? You'd have people changing back and forth
several times a week or more, if so.
What's more it would be impossible for any Christian to be sure than
anyone else was a "true Christian" or not. How would you know what he was
really thinking? What about people with mental problems they can barely
control? The handicapped? The wealthy? What about people in the military?
Can you kill someone - even in time of war - and be considered truly
Christ-like? If you say yes then it blows your whole definition. I mean
JC
never killed anyone. He said turn the other cheek. Even if the soldier did
his duty to protect his country it isn't something Jesus EVER DID. If your
definition allows someone who has killed, then how could you refuse
someone, who, say refuses to give the shirt off his back to just anyone
who asks? Can you hear it now: A KILLER is ok but not ME??
In your case, you obviously haven't sold all your belongings and given the
money to the poor. But then again, neither did Jesus. So what do you do
in
this case? What JC said you should do, or what he actually did?
And this is just scratching the surface of that giant can of worms.
You have a right to your opinion on what defines a Christian. And you know
what? Mine isn't far from yours. But we don't make the definitions or
enforce them.
Oops! I don't see a single flame, or even any smoke in the above! Will
this get me kicked out of here? I'm just not trying hard enough I guess.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Will you come quietly, or shall I use ear plugs?
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 215/33 130 200
SEEN-BY: 215/400 427 705 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 215/130 200 705 270/101 218/801
|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Re: Staal probably also b
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:b4a1 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332b9
In a message dated 02-22-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> What Fred does not post is the rest of the message. The discussion wit
> came about after David asked me if I would kill my son if God asked me
> told him that my God would not ask me to because that would be a sacri
> he himself had sent his Son to die as the final sacrifice. The stateme
> Fred quotes comes out of that discussion. David kept saying that he di
> me about a sacrifice, and I told him that statement. I never admitted
> would do such an act, which is what Fred keeps claiming. I was telling
> that my God would not ask me to do it.
-----
But no believer can ever say they know for certain what God will or will
not do. To say you know the mind of God is saying your mind is greater -
which is blasphemy. Did any mortal in the Bible ever claim to know the
mind of God? For all you know, he could test your faith - like Job. Is it
impossible?
Furthermore, if you truly DID know for a fact what God would do, you'd be
hell-bound! Why? because faith is required for salvation. Faith is the
strongest of beliefs in something - without evidence of it. If you "know"
something certainly, then you cannot have faith in it.
The point is NOT whether or not your god will request you to kill your
son. Ok? It isn't the point. The point is would you obey your god -
whatever he asks you to do - or no? If he says "will you obey me?" are you
going to ask him what he wants first? Or will you say yes?
It is not a trick question. Your answer can be no different from that of
any good Christian. There is only one thing you can say.
>
> EF> A "morality" that says "taking an innocent life is ok - if my God
> EF> to" is no morality at all.
>
> I never made that statement either.
Indeed you did not. I did.
>
> EF> Don't you get it? An immoral act is immoral no matter who does it
> EF> "requests" it).
>
> Don't you get it, I never stated that I would do such and act, that is
> Fred is trying to get you to believe, but he's lieing. If he would bot
> post the rest of the message, you'de see that.
I understand. Now try to understand me. I know you have faith that your
god will never request you to kill. But understand it is a hypothetical
question. If I asked you what you would say to JC if he came to your door
tomorrow, would you refuse to answer because you know it is something he
isn't going to do?
Point is, to some of us, morality that is based on an unquestioned
"obedience" to the Biblical god is disturbing. There is a potential there
for the justification of ANY ACT as being moral. Note my word: POTENTIAL.
Not "will happen." "Could happen."
Look. If yours is the one true God then if I believe differently, I am in
error, right? You need not respect the beliefs of one known to be in
error, no more than you have to respect the beliefs of a driver going the
wrong way on a one way street. You have the only God so there is no
question in your mind you are right.
Is it a kindness to allow me to continue the error of my ways? What if
your kids were drawn to me and they started drifting from the true word?
How could you allow my error to infect the righteous? You wouldn't allow
someone to continue to drive the wrong way on your street would you? You
wouldn't allow a sick person to spread an illness would you?
----
Do you see where I'm going? A certainty that you possess the one true
(whatever) means that tolerance not only _doesn't_ make sense - it is down
right stupid. Would you allow your child - or anyone - to do something
that you KNEW would kill them? Would it be Christ-like to allow it? Are
you obliged to respect their free will if they wanted to lay down in the
middle of the freeway? Well how much more important is their soul?
You see? If you know you are right, there is no good reason to allow
others to behave wrongfully.
Now put the two concepts together: unquestioned obedience to a God, and
a
moral certainty - God IS on your side. Now you have people _just like you_
deeply religious, God fearing, moral Christians who want nothing other
than to do right - suddenly capable of awful things... but with love in
their hearts.
Asserting it can't happen here or can't happen now, flies in the face of
history. It has occurred with a sickening regularity.
Maybe the people who did this weren't really Christian, but they thought
they were, every bit as much as you do. Don't doubt it for a second. They
didn't.
Are you familiar with the beliefs of Pat Robertson? He is easily the most
powerful "Christian" in America today. Probably the most dangerous too.
He
has justified Old Testament genocide as an "an "act of love" - with a
gleam in his eye. Is he a Christian? Do you think he thinks so?
Anyway, maybe this gives you an idea what my concerns are.
Ciao
>
> Kenneth Mcabee
>> Sorry Fredric, but nowhere in the statement above did I admit that
>> sacrifice my own Son. Only that if God asked me to kill my son that I
>> it as a sacrifice.
EF> That's damning enough, Ken. It isn't too surprising that you were
unaware
EF> your admission demonstrates the situational ethics inherent in your
EF> religious dogma. To you and your ilk, murder can be bad or good,
depending
EF> upon who does (or who "requests") it.
What Fred does not post is the rest of the message. The discussion with
David
came about after David asked me if I would kill my son if God asked me to.
I
told him that my God would not ask me to because that would be a sacrifice
and
he himself had sent his Son to die as the final sacrifice. The statement
that
Fred quotes comes out of that discussion. David kept saying that he did
not ask
me about a sacrifice, and I told him that statement. I never admitted that
I
would do such an act, which is what Fred keeps claiming. I was telling
David
that my God would not ask me to do it.
EF> A "morality" that says "taking an innocent life is ok - if my God
tells me
EF> to" is no morality at all.
I never made that statement either.
EF> Don't you get it? An immoral act is immoral no matter who does it (or
EF> "requests" it).
Don't you get it, I never stated that I would do such and act, that is
what
Fred is trying to get you to believe, but he's lieing. If he would bother
to
post the rest of the message, you'de see that.
Kenneth Mcabee
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
I had my head x-rayed today. Nothing there.
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 215/33 130 200
SEEN-BY: 215/400 427 705 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 215/130 200 705 270/101 218/801
|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:cea7 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332c2
In a message dated 02-22-96 John Brawley wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> EF> Hahahahahaha! That's pretty funny. Read Numbers 31 and then come
> EF> and explain why your loving god directed the genocidal slaughter
> EF> about
> EF> 60,000 to 100,000 captured women, children, and babies. Tell us w
> EF> the children did to deserve such a fate.
>
>
> Although it's an excellent idea to fight mindless creationism and
> perhaps even mindless belief-systems, it is NOT a good idea to make th
> same mistakes that the Fundies make (quoting selectively and with
> incorrect interpretation).
I agree, which is why I did not and do not employ such techniques.
>
> For this example, consider the actual words of Numbers 31, in the RSV
> my possession:
>
> "The LORD said to Moses, 'Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianite
> afterward you shall be gathered to your people.'"
So what do you think that meant? (My Bible says "Vex" instead of avenge)
Did Moses go overboard or did he do what his god expected of him?
What *I* said was the Biblical god _directed_ this slaughter, and he did.
It was as unnecessary for him to tell Moses to kill the women and children
as it was to tell him to kill all the men or to loot the place.
I mean "avenge" doesn't specifically imply "to loot" does it? Yet notice
God made sure he got his cut. So clearly "to loot" was understood. So was
"to kill every last man." And so was "to leave nothing else alive."
Why do I say that? Because to do this was SOP! That's why Moses was so
pissed when his men brought back the women and children. Here: check out
Numbers 21:34, an earlier slaughter (there are so many to choose from!!)
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him
into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him
as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon."
Notice God says "do the same to Og as you did to the Sihon king."
So what did Moses understand that to mean ? :35
"So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was
none left him alive: and they possessed his land."
Killed every last one of them.
> Note that in reading on _after_ that, all the actions taken were taken
> at the instructions of _Moses_.
Moses wasn't even at the scene of the battle.
>God does not again speak until 31:25,
> in which no hint of the slaughter is mentioned.
Not precisely true. I'll get to this in a moment.
> (This is about distribution of the booty.)
Hint: look at the list.
> Hence although your task is probably to good purpose (leading the Fund
> away from his own false interpretation), it isn't a good thing, to
> misuse the text in exactly the same way the Fundie does.
Once again I agree. Not only would I not do this, there isn't any reason
to if I were so inclined. Your conclusion that I have is a hasty one.
God didn't tell Moses to loot the place - but they did. God took his share
which clearly shows his approval of the action of looting (The fact that
God didn't admonish him for anything he did is ample proof of all Moses
actions. But we have better evidence than that.) God not only took his
share, he directed how all the loot would be split up. (and what "loot"
that was!)
And let's not loose sight of reality here. After all, when it comes right
down to it, Moses was really the only one calling the shots because there
_was no God_ for him to talk to.
THAT is the only real alternative. But regardless of how many slaughters
the Children of Israel conducted, believers would much rather accept their
"benevolent" god being in charge and responsible for it all (which he most
certainly was - if he existed) than the alternative. No contest!
For the sake of argument I must accept their stand point: the premise of
a
real Biblical God existing. It is not a pretty picture, my friend. I need
not embellish the anything. The words on the page say it all. Anyway, to
continue...
> Eh? Do you wish to reduce the impact of your arguments by MIS-
> understanding or misreading what is actually said in the portion of th
text that you are using as example?
Aw come on John! Cut me some slack here. Ok, smoking gun time. You said:
God does not again speak until 31:25,
> in which no hint of the slaughter is mentioned. (This is about
> distribution of the booty.)
Now I said that isn't exactly true. Meaning there being no hint of the
slaughter.
Numbers 31:25) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
(note: God speaking here)
Numbers 31:26) Take the sum of the prey that was taken, [both] of man and
of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the
congregation:
Huh? What does he mean "[both] of man and of beast"? Didn't they kill all
the men? Yes, but God says "man" as in "human" - meaning ... that's right
- the 32,000 virgins they spared for the pleasure of the armies! The
virgins are part of the spoil!
Numbers 31:40) And the persons [were] sixteen thousand; of which the
LORD'S tribute [was] thirty and two persons.
BANG!
God's share [ of 16,000, not 32,000: they previously divided the virgins
between the "men of war" and the general population] of the spared
virgins. Thirty-two given up [as a "heave offering"?] - meaning, probably,
human sacrifice. [notice God refers to them right along with the animals
as "prey" and they are spoken of exactly like the cattle and other booty.]
We can be fairly certain God didn't take his share of the "other" live
stock back to Heaven with him, so the fate of the 32 virgins _seems_
pretty obvious: the same as the rest of the "prey" that was God's
"tribute"
Yet, I can't prove it to my satisfaction so I do not claim it was human
sacrifice for certain. Even though I probably could get away with claiming
it, I do not. [It MIGHT be an incorrect interpretation. How's that John?
Is that what a fundie would do if the situation were reversed? ]
If one accepts the premise of the Biblical God, there can be no serious
argument that his will had not been done. Taking his "share" of the
virgins is just the topper. Believers don't dispute it Even Pat Robertson,
speaking specifically about Numbers 31, gives God full credit. I have a
700 club transcript of him discussing it in some detail. Naturally he
leaves out the part about the virgins being spared [That's what a fundie
would do].
Well I hope that clears this up. I'll try to post the Robertson thing too.
Ciao.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
God made me an atheist--who am I to question His divine will
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 215/33 130 200
SEEN-BY: 215/400 427 705 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 215/130 200 705 270/101 218/801
|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: Evolution: Fact&Theor
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:a905 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332cb
In a message dated 02-22-96 John Brawley wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> EF> In a message dated 02-13-96 Preston Simpson wrote to Eric Hendrix
>
> EF> > EH> For example, science says there could be ghosts/super-natur
> EF> bein > EH> But, they can't *prove* it. Any attempt I know of has
> EF> failed
> EF> > EH> miserably. In my opinion, that's because God doesn't want
> EF> humans > EH> poking and probing into the spiritual world, which
> EF> Bible says > EH> exists, for their own protection.
>
>
> EF> What?? For their "own protection"? You've got to be kidding. If y
> EF> god was concerned about "protecting" his children why would he al
> EF> such
> EF> things as earthquakes to kill millions of people?
>
>
> I note presence of "your god" in the above. Does this indicate that y
> disagree with the Judeo-Christian, or the Christian-Fundie, image-of-
> god, _specifically_?
Yes, but not in the sense that I depreciate their version of god in order
to apotheosize one that I happen to favor.
> Can there be, iyho, some other image-of-god that
> would be more acceptable to you?
Well sure, I suppose. I don't preemptively preclude it. On the other hand,
should we allow our petty human biases and desires to dictate what to look
for? The universe doesn't care that the human race seems to need a Sky
Daddy - whether there is one or not.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Sometimes what you learn conflicts with what you know
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 215/33 130 200
SEEN-BY: 215/400 427 705 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 215/130 200 705 270/101 218/801
|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:1e14 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332d5
In a message dated 02-22-96 John Brawley wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> EF> Or consider a fly landing on a table top. The fly occupies a sur
> EF> area of 1 mm^2. The table top is 1 metre x 1 metre, or 1,000,000
>
> Presuming a standard housefly, no housefly is only one square millimet
> in table-surface-covering area. (More like 30 or 40 mm^2; 8mm long by
> wide.)
>
> Imprecision in argument appears to be a fault of _both_ sides of this
> argument.
Well I'd have to see an example of....Oh wait a minute. Oh I see. Sure,
you're right. Well I'll beaSonofabitch. Thanks for pointing that out.
However, I must take exception (ok, mild exception) to your equating my
argument with theirs under the heading of "imprecise." Please note that
my
error in no way changed the point I was establishing. It was but one of
3
examples supporting my conclusion. The errors found on the other side are
fundamentally (no pun) flawed, without hope of salvation (pun).
> If your task is to "educate" the Fundie out of his ludicrou
> belief-system
Ahh no. I don't have the slightest interest in changing the mind of any
fundy. Not a goal of mine. Not now, not ever.
> (a fool's errand in the first place)
Yes, that's one of the reasons ...
it behooves you to
> be extremely and dedicatedly (if not 'deadly'), accurate in _your_
> side's argument.
On the contrary! Fundies _LOVE_ goofy ideas and sloppy research. In fact,
maybe that's the problem: I haven't said anything dumb enough yet to
really persuade them. But hey, but I'm working on it (though you just
dealt me quite a set back, John)
All seriousness aside of course I agree if, perhaps, for a different
reason. You know, someone gave me the fly example back, hell, it has to
be
3 or 4 years now. It has resided on my hard drive in my "probability"
folder ever since. I have trotted it out at least a dozen times in the
interim never thinking much about it. You are the first one to notice the
error of scale in all that time. So thanks again, I really do appreciate
it. The only thing I hate worse than doing something like that is being
unaware I am doing something like that. Way to go, John!
Now where was I? Oh yeah.
I don't think fundies are very impressed by deadly accuracy per se. I do,
however, work at being accurate and it will be a warm day on Pluto before
you catch me making a factual claim I can't document or cite a reference
for (though obviously I do make mistakes, as do the authors of said
references.)
I think the importance of accuracy when engaging fundies is to preclude
them from turning an error into the Red Herring Express and heading South.
>
> EF> > ... There are few atheists on deathbeds.
>
> EF> Really? How few, exactly?
>
> EF> > Those few are true fools.
>
> EF> I see. They are fools because they demand objective empirical evi
> EF> for their beliefs? Whereas the non-fool bases his beliefs on fait
> EF> what he hopes and wishes were true? Or do you mean that anyone wh
> EF> disagrees with you regarding your God belief is a fool?
> It's possible for one to be atheistic on the deathbed _because_ the
> person has found no rational, reasonable, accurate or reliable data
> while alive, to support the belief in a god.
(?) Hmmmm. Well yeah. Except I would replace "possible" with "necessary"
or "obligatory". Given the reasons you list, what alternative is there?
Even if you wanted to, how could you ever go back once you have eaten the
fruit of knowledge? One might wish to return to the moment before the
garden melted away but you can never un-bite that apple.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Politeness is asking a beggar if he'll take a check
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 215/33 130 200
SEEN-BY: 215/400 427 705 218/801 809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 215/130 200 705 270/101 218/801
|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Subject Headers
|Date: 24 Feb 96 21:01:02
EID:3d87 2058a820
MSGID: 1:352/266 31300972
SM> (a) Accept the Echo as it is; or
SM> (b) Get the fuck out, NOW.
Sot of what I've already sumised. It may take a bit to learn which characters
are interesting and which I'll by-pass. Thanks for letting me know how
it works here.
SM> It's just part of finding your way around here. Soon, it'll be second
SM> nature.
Hope so!
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 380 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 352/266 600 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/1 308 3403/15 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 352/266 600 138/380 146 270/101 218/801
|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Wandering topics
|Date: 24 Feb 96 21:04:02
EID:bb14 2058a880
MSGID: 1:352/266 31300973
KW> FIDO ate your original post to me. :)
Hungry FIDO, be a good doggy.
KW> This idjit refuses to quote. We know that he can do it, he has a
Hmmmm that could explain things rather nicely. I've run across a few others
who refuse to quote.
KW> place in here. As it is a very busy message base, no one even
KW> attemptsto keep the topic lines current.
Ummmmm I guess I'll adjust after a while. Wish me luck!
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 380 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 352/266 600 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/1 308 3403/15 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 352/266 600 138/380 146 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:17:26
EID:4cf2 20588a20
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 13073540
FMPT 1012
JB> On 19 Feb 96, John Prewett wrote:
JP> ps- One might bear in mind that I've spent thousands of hours and
JP> thousands of dollars distributing a message to my fellow citizens that
JP> [though they now think it is crazy] I hope and believe will eventually
JP> prove to be very beneficial to those of my fellow citizens who
JP> ultimately believe that message.
JB> Odd, isn't it, that others, of directly oppositional persuasion, might
JB> say exactly the same thing? Me, for example, spending whatever-buck$
it
JB> takes to run an anti-creationism messaging system for five years now....
Like people at the track bet on different horses.
JB> You suffer the approbation of the opposition, no matter _which_ side
JB> you're on, but oddly enough _you_ (no matter which side you're on) think
JB> you are the only one who is right, and the other side is always wrong.
JB> Something illogical about that.
Yep,... no matter what you contend is TRUE,
some will say "Amen", and others will say "that's crazy."
JB> ... If God is real, we will not find Him 'outside' of reality.
Course, when it comes to God,...
one must bet the fate of one's eternal soul.
IMHO, of course. WBW, Johh
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 24 Feb 96 18:04:00
EID:6af7 20589080
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 13073541
FMPT 1012
JB> On 19 Feb 96, John Prewett wrote:
JP> Nobody owes anybody a job.
JH> Everyone is due fair treatment.
JH> Firing someone for "no reason at all" is not fair treatment.
JP> Sure it's fair. If the employer is "bad",
JP> then he won't be able to keep "good" employees,
JP> and "good" people will shun his business.
JP> Therefore, due to competition with a "good" employer,
JP> the "bad" business owner will eventuall go out of business.
JP> This is called "free enterprise" at work.
JB> Sure as heck sounds like the essence of _evolution_ to _me_.....
To me too.
JP> It's part of what made America the most free
JP> and properous nation the world had ever seen.
JB> Interesting. A nation supposedly founded
JB> on Christian principles, .............
The supreme "CHRISTian" command is "love one another."
No economic system or temporal nation embodies that command.
But, the closer any nation or group comes to embodying that command,
the more is will prosper.
God's has no problem with "survival of the fittest."
Whosoever worships God in "spirit and truth"
is deemed fit to survive.
JB> claims its ascendancy derives from the power of free enterprise
JB> -- a totally "survival of the fittest"-oriented attitude.
After the Reformation, all the nations which went Protestant
experienced unprecedented economic, scientific, technological
growth and advancement.
JP> It's also fair because anyone that don't like it
JP> can start their own business.
JH> But I don't expect a Christian to grasp such concepts...
JP> I just don't agree with anti-freedom, enterprise strangling,
JP> poverty-creating c/o/m/m/u/n/i/s/t liberal concepts.
JB> Nor with evolution, I'll warrant, in spite of lovin' the heck out
JB> of the American historical business free-enterprise application
JB> of evolution's principle mechanism (selection)....
I have no problem with "evolution."
Technology "evolves."
Due to intelligent input.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: