God Damned Fundies!
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: flood
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:45:05
EID:ae0e 205765a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312e8e18
A lone voice in the wilderness, Robert mournfully howled out "flood"
LB> some bozos get that we aren't supposed to be stargazing!
RJ> I haven't heard about this--but I'm not surprised to hear it.
I think that Miller idiot mentioned something about how we'd be
"punished" for engaging in space travel ..
LB> It seems that the Tower of Babel (that is, Babylon) just may have been
LB> real. See, the Babylonians were really big on having to know where the
LB> stars and planets were located as a part of their religion.
LB> Apparently, the Tower of Babel may well have been a giant OBSERVATORY.
LB> they didn't learn much from them about it. Since most cultures,
LB> including Christiandom, explored astronomy primarily from a standpoint
LB> of how it affected their understanding of religious principles, it
RJ> Via astrology. I'm sure a lot of people don't realize the
RJ> reason why Copernicus was forced to postulate a heliocentric
RJ> theory was because he was getting incorrect astrological
RJ> predictions.
I think it also came about because the Babylonians, like the
Egyptians, used starwatching as a way to predict when the big
local river(s) would flood. The idea of astrology likely came
about from this - after all, if you can predict when floods will
occur by looking at stars, why not other things as well? And
enemies (like the Hebrews) would have interpreted such a thing as
"playing God" perhaps and denounced it in their stories.
--Wolfie
Man do not pride yourself on your superiority to animals: they are
without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your
appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after
you.---Fyodor Milkailovich Dostoyevsky
... "I've been in your family since 1532" "So has syphilus. Get out."
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: flood
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:03:06
EID:ae0e 20579860
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312e8e19
A lone voice in the wilderness, Robert mournfully howled out "flood"
DW> Oddly enough, engineering is somewhat of a refuge for "scientific" (I
DW> use that word in its loosest possible sense) minded fundies.
DW> There's just enough mathematics and simple science involved that they
DW> can convince themselves they are experts on *real* science, yet they
DW> don't have to mess with that blasphemous evolution and big bang shit.
RJ> This is a truism. In fact, I had a biomed prof who used the
RJ> first day of all his lectures to _witness_ to students.
RJ> Engin- eering is just *crawling* with jeezoids--except for the
RJ> ones who read the Koran, but some of those guys like to party.
Out of the few engineers/engineering students I've met, most of
those were really right-wing, though I don't think the subject of
religion ever came up. The remaining two (out of perhaps 5 or 6),
though, are more middle-of-the-road types. Not a very big sample,
mind you, but that's the folks I've at least talked to on BBSes.
The most rabid right-wingers, though, seemed to carry their
engineering POV to _everything_, and denigrated anything that
wasn't "hard science" .. including biology. These two (out of the
5 or 6) were about the most arrogant prats I've ever had the
misfortune of coming across.
As for the fundies, I think that engineering simply reinforces
their preconcieved notions that things simply cannot be without an
engineer behind everything, and that goes for the Universe as
well. I've noticed that most Creationist arguments have the
definite tone of engineering arguments - "if a building can't
erect or design itself, how can the Earth?" and they don't seem to
understand that not everything need be engineered.
--Wolfie
Man do not pride yourself on your superiority to animals: they are
without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your
appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after
you.---Fyodor Milkailovich Dostoyevsky
... Copenhagenists only do it if somebody's watching.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Married, Will Cheat
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:19:07
EID:3add 2057aa60
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 312e8e1a
A lone voice in the wilderness, Ken mournfully howled out "Married, Will
Cheat"
PS>... "From the author of the best selling horror novel, _The Bible_...."
KW> Ya. From the pov of most on this Conference this is probably true.
KW> Problem is, someday it will be for many a historical horror novel.
It already is just that. Just as "Gone with the Wind" is an
historical war novel (ie, fiction about a war that actually
occured in history).
A novel is _always_ a work of fiction.
--Wolfie
Man do not pride yourself on your superiority to animals: they are
without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your
appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after
you.---Fyodor Milkailovich Dostoyevsky
... "I'll be Bach." - Johann Sebastian Schwarzenegger
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Simon Ewins
|Sub: pouring
|Date: 24 Feb 96 13:37:00
EID:515b 20586ca0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D439C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Simon Ewins to Michael Hardy <=-
Simon says:
MH> This was not known to the first English translators of the Bible,
MH> including the King James translators in 1611. The older manuscripts
MH> were discovered later. More recent translations include it (because
MH> they'd be accused of covering up if they didn't) with the note that
MH> it doesn't appear in the best manuscripts.
SE> Agreed.
MH> That being the case, Rudzinski's constant "I'll pour" diatribe is
MH> meaningless.
SE> Only when directed at you or any other that recognizes that much of
SE> the gospel is more the 'word of creative men' than the 'word of god'.
Well, I don't hold that to be true about "much of" the gospel. I think
the *original* gospels are neither -- they are accurate history written
by eyewitnesses or the students of eyewitnesses. They are not dictated
by God, but neither are they made up by man.
OTOH, in the case of the existing end of Mark, there is compelling
evidence that it wasn't part of what Mark wrote, but was tacked on much
later. That doesn't cheapen the worth of what Mark did write.
SE> When directed at a mindless automaton who was told that the bible is
SE> true word for word, cover to cover, no questions askable, and believes
SE> it... then it is far from meaningless since it points out quite well
a)
SE> the errors in thinking that are required in order to accept the bible
SE> as 'truth' from cover to cover and b) the hypocrisy of those who claim
SE> to accept it as such but would not test the "I'll pour" theory with
SE> thier own faith.
I suppose that is a valid point. (Grudgingly.)
SE> Now, since you have agreed that at least one portion of the bible is
SE> of doubtful authenticity, how do you manage to determine that the rest
SE> is 'truth'?
SE> Which other bits are not part of "god's truth" and which are, and how
SE> do you tell one from the other?
By using the best evidence we have available. If a passage is included
in the oldest and best manuscripts we have, then I see no reason to
doubt that it was part of the original work. If someone next year finds
an even older manuscript that omits a passage, then that would be
evidence that the passage wasn't part of the original work. So far, the
ending of Mark is the only one I know of that affects the gospels.
This speaks only to whether the passage was what the gospel author
actually wrote, of course. Whether or not it is *true* is another
matter.
SE> How meaningful is the term 'word of god'? Or is it the 'word of god
SE> except for the bit at the end of Mark'?
I try to avoid using that phrase because it has widely varying meanings
to different people. It is what Francis Schaeffer termed a "content
word," meaning that its definition is so nebulous and unfixed that any
discussion of it should start with an agreement as to what it means.
So, to answer your question, the term "word of God" is not very
meaningful at all until the people involved in a particular discussion
agree on a meaning.
SE> If it is known to not be authentic, why is it still in the latest
SE> editions?
You'd have to ask that question of the people who made that editorial
decision. My feeling is that it's because anti-Bible people would
accuse the editors of trying to cover up a difficulty if they simply
dropped it without explanation. Most modern translations do include a
note to the effect that it doesn't appear in the oldest and best
manuscripts, thus letting the reader decide how much credit to give it.
... Jesus saves. The rest of us rack up credit card debt.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: flood
|Date: 24 Feb 96 13:51:00
EID:31c7 20586e60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D439D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Michael Hardy <=-
AM> But would you kill yourself if you knew you were only lying about
AM> time running out?
MH> And that's the key question. The very first Christian martyrs would
MH> have known the resurrection was a lie or myth, if in fact it was --
MH> and yet they suffered and died in defense of it.
SA> The people at Jonestown and Waco also suffered and died for what
SA> they believed in, and they were contemporary to the leaders of their
SA> groups. Just because someone lived at the same time, Michael, does
SA> not mean that they are knowledgeable about what has gone on in that
SA> time from someone else's perspective.
I've made this point about a thousand times, and no one ever
seems to grasp it. Once more:
The resurrection of Jesus was an EVENT!! It was not a claim, such as
the claims made by Koresh or Jim Jones.
Yes, people can be convinced of the truth of claims, even to the extent
that they will die for them. But the resurrection of Jesus has NOTHING
to do with that. It was an event which either happened or didn't.
Koresh said: "I'm thinking of the number three," and people either
believed it or they didn't. No way to confirm it.
Jesus said: "I have written the number three on this piece of paper,"
and people could easily look to see if that was true or not.
Get it?
SA> There is also the matter of illusion...even if there were
SA> witnesses to key aspects of the faith, such as the resurrected body
of
SA> Christ, this does not mean that what they thought they saw was what
SA> they actually saw. Just think of what would happen if someone who had
SA> never been exposed to stage magic saw David Copperfield make the Statue
SA> of Liberty disappear (I think that one was his...I could be mistaken).
SA> Did D.C. really take the Statue away for a short time? Of course
SA> not...but he knew how to make it look as if he had.
There is no reason to think that all eleven remaining disciples, Mar
Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus, James his brother and various
other people all had the same illusion. That's grasping at straws to
avoid the obvious.
Unless you're making the claim that Jesus was an illusionist, in which
case you have to explain why he would do such a thing, where he
disappeared to after the "resurrection" and how he managed to
convincingly fake both his death and his return when Romans were
driving nails into his wrists and sticking spears in his side.
SA> If someone had a very strong belief because of what they thought
SA> they saw, would you agree that they may consider being put to death
SA> for that belief if that was expected of the believers?
Consider how faithless the disciples were before the crucifixion, with
Peter denying he even knew Jesus. Is a fleeting glimpse of someone who
kinda sorta looked like Jesus going to suddenly make such a coward into
a bold proclaimer who endures persecution?
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: fax
|Date: 24 Feb 96 13:59:00
EID:231e 20586f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D439E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> However, the Bible in its original Hebrew, is not incorrect. The word
MH> usually translated "birds" actually simply refers to flying vertebrates
MH> (as opposed to insects.) Apparently the English-language translators,
MH> trying to find a single word to express this, figured "bird" was the
MH> closest they could get.
KS> Oh?? Then why did they go to the trouble of translating all the names
KS> of OTHER kinds of flying creatures? And why would it have to be a
KS> 'single' word? I would bet big odds there is a Hebrew word for
KS> 'bats' as well as every kind of bird found in the Middle East.
Karl, this is what the word means according to a Hebrew-English
dictionary. You are arguing with objective truth here, which is a
pretty stupid thing to do.
MH> You can continue insisting it's an error if you like, but if you do,
MH> you'll be contradicting facts.
KS> It's an error. It plainly says what it says and it's wrong. TS.
What the Hebrew word means in Hebrew is what it means, period, and it
is correct.
... Thanks for your opinion. I hope I can get it off my shoe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: spontaneous abortion
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:23:00
EID:0ab2 205872e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D439F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> LB> makes it completely unviable, etc, etc, etc. It's completely natural
MH> LB> and not brought on by ANYTHING the woman has done -- although kind
MH> LB> hearted souls like you are not above making her FEEL like it's their
MH> LB> fault.
MH> Except that smoking, drinking to excess and using drugs when you're
not
MH> ill *are* self-destructive behaviors. The woman doesn't have to know
MH> she's pregnant to damage the fetus, while doing things that also damage
MH> herself.
KW> Mike, you are out in left field with this. A woman doesn't have to
do
KW> anything to loose baby after baby. You are vicious if you claim that
KW> it is her fault. Women were miscarrying long before tobacco came into
KW> common usage. I would suggest that you do a little research before
KW> you make any more nakedly ignorant and markedly nasty comments like
the
KW> above.
I didn't claim it was her fault, and I know miscarriages can happen
even when the woman does everything right. However, tobacco, alcohol
and some drugs can make the risk higher.
My wife takes several prescription medications, two of which carry
warnings to not use them if you are pregnant or trying to conceive.
Cigarettes and alcoholic beverages also carry such warnings. None of
what I said is wrong; you read more into it than I put there.
I would suggest you make sure I'm saying what you think I'm saying
before you fire off a rebuttal. :)
MH> The point isn't that it's the woman's fault ... the point is that God
MH> isn't aborting babies, as Preston alleged.
KW> My, should we be grateful that you don't consider it our fault?
KW> Perhaps you would advocate keeping women in chains to keep those babies
KW> safe? And then, who would you blame when spontaneous abortions just
KW> kept happening?
This bit of vitriol was uncalled for. I never said, or implied, any
such thing. (First you berate me for, you think, suggesting it's the
woman's fault; then you berate me for specifically saying it isn't.
Sheesh, I guess I just can't win.)
MH> As I read the response, Eric wasn't blaming the woman so much as he
MH> was absolving God (as if God needs our absolution).
KW> I won't accept the blame for my child's death to absolve your vicious
KW> predator of a volcano destruction deity. If he's yours, you keep him.
KW> I don't want anything to do with him or his self righteous,
KW> sanctimonious followers.
OK. God doesn't force anyone to accept him. Just don't try to blame him
when you find heaven's gate locked. You will have had your chance.
... Very funny Scotty. Now beam up my clothes.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:08:00
EID:70f2 20587100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I tried several times to come up with a flippant or humorous
MH> rejoinder to this, but I just can't. It's unmitigated ignorant
MH> bigotry on your
MH> part, and there's nothing funny about it. It's absolutely untrue, and
MH> motivated by raw hatred.
KD> Consider it motivated by being fed up with the Religious Reich.
KD> Buchanan [an idiot cretinist] winning in New Hampshire was the last
KD> straw.
KD> I'm not going to put up with the very words for my belief system, and
KD> that of atheists and pagans, being turned into dirty words while
KD> Christian is undeservedly complimentary.
To stereotype *all* Christians as idiots makes you no better than those
you despise.
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: suff'rin
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:08:00
EID:d75d 20587100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> It is an act of extreme mercy and love. Nothing circular about it.
KD> Then why can't he do something we do every day?
MH> If someone killed your mother, then mockingly demanded you forgive
MH> him just before he killed your father, would you do it?
KD> We're not talking about murder here, Michael, in most people's lives.
KD> We're talking about little things, in some cases things that don't
KD> hurt anyone else like sleeping with a person of the same gender.
"Little things" to you and me, because we aren't perfect either. No sin
is little to a perfectly holy God.
Besides, you insist that humans can "just forgive" sin, and murder is
certainly that. How come your point is suddenly selective? I guess you
just mean that you can freely forgive those sins that you don't think
should be sins at all, but not those other nasty things.
MH> On the other hand, if he kills your mother and then begs your
MH> forgiveness, and you know he really is sorry for what he's done,
MH> could you forgive him without sacrificing the part of yourself that
MH> desires
MH> to see him punished?
KD> I would probably still wish the standard legal procedure be found, and
KD> that would give me closure.
And that's why God needed a sacrifice -- of part of himself -- in order
to make forgiveness freely available to those who choose it.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:11:00
EID:d499 20587160
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Psst. He's not Jim. This much I know for sure.
LB> How? I'm serious -- I'd really like to know for sure. He got me with
LB> Lon -- I always accepted Lon as a seperate person. I have tried to
LB> deal with Mark as seperate, but I have doubts. If you could put those
LB> to rest, I would appreciate it.
MH> Dave Oosterman, who knows Jim personally (they live in the same
MH> town), confirmed that Mark Staal is a different person.
MS> ....WELL FINALLY, thank you for finally finding proof that I am
MS> Not Jim, nor is Lump...Lump is just my nickname and shorter to type
MS> in the "from" spot.
MH> ... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a weakened
MS> body, Pneumonia.
I'm sorry to hear that. My father died of heart disease seven years ago
this month. It's hard to lose a parent.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Rice's pisces
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:13:00
EID:6453 205871a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Hmmmm ... I don't know about that. However, Jim and Mark's styles are
MH> not identical, and I don't think Jim is that skilled an impersonator.
MH> I can usually tell it's him no matter what the name is, and "Lump"
MH> sounds different.
MS> .....the only reason we might sound the same is because we're
MS> brothers just like Dave and Fred rice sound the same(are they the
MS> same?) but we are 2 totally different people...
No, they aren't the same. David is marginally smarter. I guess he
finished high school or something.
... Parking reserved for witches only. Violators will be toad.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: here comes pat
|Date: 24 Feb 96 21:55:42
EID:9c36 2058aee0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892D43A4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-> -=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
->
-> MH> It's a lie. One of his advisors once made a speech to a
-> gun-owners
-> MH> group, and a couple of white supremacists were in the audience.
->
-> Sorry, Mike, this is where you are wrong. Leo, knowing nothing about
-> the discussion here, brought me home the Jacksonville newspaper. The
-> woman who was heading the Florida campaign for Buchanan is the chair
-> person for for the NAAWP, a group that is mainly peopled with
-> KKK'ers who want to look a bit more reasonable.
So? She was fired as soon as Buchanan learned of it. Since he
defended Larry Pratt after the allegations were made about him, I
see no reason to think he fired this woman for something he
had known about all along -- else he would have fired Pratt too.
Do you imagine that a candidate for national office has the
ability or time to personally investigate and approve each and every one
of the thousands of volunteers who help with campaigns?
Also, I'm pretty sure she wasn't the head of his campaign for the whole
state of Florida, but just one region, making it even more likely that
he didn't know of her other sympathies.
This is simply a case of people who oppose what a candidate stands for
blowing things all out of proportion in an effort to smear the
candidate.
I'm not necessarily a Buchanan booster, but I do oppose unfair
criticism. If the fair criticism of him is sufficient, no one should
have to resort to implications and exaggerations.
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Roland
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 24 Feb 96 15:03:22
EID:4764 20587860
** Quoting Elliott Finesse to Roland **
E> In a message dated 02-13-96 Roland wrote to Anthony Grigor-Scott:
E>
E> > Since I am a Christian, it is difficult for me to even speculate that
E> > of made an error. But i am also very Scientificaly minded.
E> > I do not think the Carbon-14 dating method is perfect....However i
do
E> > that it is normally `close enough'. And these test have shown that
th
E> > large gap in time between man and dinosaurs.
E>
E>
E> No, not Carbon-14 dating. Your conclusion is correct, however. Just not
E> for the reason given.
E>
E> ---
E> TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
E> "If you don't have a choice, then you don't have a problem"
E> * Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
E> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 3615/50 51
Then do enlighten me, what is the reason?
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
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|From: Roland
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 24 Feb 96 15:10:18
EID:2253 20587940
** Quoting Anthony Grigor-Scott to Roland **
A> Dear Brother Roland,
A>
A> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
A>
A> R> I do not think the Carbon-14 dating method is perfect....However
i do
A> R> think that it is normally `close enough'.
A>
A> Brother, they have carbon dated contemporary things to millions of years
A> old. Just takle God at His Word.
A>
A> R> Also how can you explain that dinosaur and man fossils have never
been
A> R> found in the same relative area, at the same depth indicating that
A> R> both existed in the same time frame.
A>
A> But they have.
A>
A> R> And if man did exist at the same time as dinosaurs, would we not
have
A> R> been prey to them?
A>
A> I suppose they did.
A>
A> R> And would not some human fossils have been found with teeth and claw
A> R> marks on the bones?
A>
A> I don't see why.
A>
A> Kind regards,
A>
A> Anthony Grigor-Scott
A>
A> --- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
A> * Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
A> SEEN-BY: 270/101 280/1 396/1 361/50 51
Dinosaur teeth marks have been found on smaller fossils indicating that
dinosaurs preyed on them. Had humans existed at that point in time, it is
logical to conclude that humans also would have been prey; and would be
found
with teeth and claw marks. Since no human remains have ever been found
with
these marks it is also logical to conclude that dinosaurs and humans never
co-existed on this planet.
--- FalkenRdr V1.9h
* Origin: The Horseman's BBS; Pleasant Lake MI <517-769-2230> - (1:2330/20)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: seedy CD
|Date: 25 Feb 96 00:12:03
EID:6004 20590180
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 312fa992
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B1
-=| On 22 Feb 96 21:13, Michael Hardy said: |=-
DO>> Jerk. BTW, I'm listening to the new CD as I type. So far it's
DO>> the whoop!
MH> I hope that means it's good. :)
Indeed!
MH> My faves are tracks 1-14. The rest of it isn't so hot. :)
:)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 22 Feb 96 14:11:20
EID:5478 20567160
MSGID: 3:711/933 312c7a21
Dear AL SCHROEDER,
Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
AS> Why, Anthony, I do believe you are losing your temper.
Not at all ... Just obeying the words of my Savior, `be angry and sin not'.
AS> Too bad Jesus said to call one's spiritual brother a fool puts one in
AS> danger of the "fires of hell".
But the evidence clearly demonstrates you are not related to me Spiritually
- not as yet having been born into the Family.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Linda Whitten
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: Samhain old shit/4
|Date: 24 Feb 96 20:36:00
EID:92f8 2058a480
MSGID: 1:128/50 3127DF58
KW> LW>I don't know anyone who has undergone a Queening, though I
KW> probably qualify.
I'm 47, never married, never had kids. One of my friends ¨asked
me today why. I'm not totally clear on this, but I suspect that ¨I was
as big a mystery to the male population as I was unsure of them. ¨(And
refused to be more than friend/sisterly to them.)
KW> Linda, you have gifted me with the most amazing vision of Pat B. in
KW> pink
KW> satin toe shoes. I thank you.
I try to be useful!
Him and Will Perkins and the whole of Focus on the Fallicy...Family.
--- QuickBBS 2.76 Ovr
* Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50)
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|From: Larry Meyering
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: Re: End Times!
|Date: 24 Feb 96 08:37:46
EID:5f85 205844a0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1604
-=> Quoting Larry Jansen to All <=-
LJ> I hope you realize that the international bankers are behind us being
LJ> in Bosnia. Iraq and Iran are next on their agenda. "Too bad" that
LJ> our "children" will have to die, so that they can make more money, and
LJ> enslave the world.
LJ> All hail! Satan and his New World Order are upon us -- ez. 38, 39, 40;
LJ> rv. 20: 7-15.
Long Live The New World Order.
Larry
... Paul fell down, broke his head...and *then* saw a god.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Re: JIM STAAL
|Date: 21 Feb 96 16:51:00
EID:a041 20558660
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e55
-=> Quoting Sean McCullough to George Rudzinski <=-
> BTW if this goes through, throw a ceramic owl my wife's way every Oct
> 9th and Christmas. My wife is an owl junky. I've got owl towels, owl
> places mats, owl coasters, owl figurines all over the place and a three
> foot ceramic owl lamp with no guts, shade and short one eye.
SM> That lamp sounds as if my cat had gotten to it..... :-)
Sean,
A cat? I have seven cats. Patches, One Eye, Whiskey, Yoda, Tigre, Yegzi,
and
my baby, Lucky.
SM> Swordsie HATES owls. In her wild days, she had been attacked by one.
SM> Today, she has no truck with them AT ALL.
> ... Dole! For Family Values, we don't want sex in the White House.
SM> Love. It.
Now if I could get enough people to love what I write to pay for what I
write.
george
... Bob Dole is almost, well, lifelike.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 21 Feb 96 16:55:09
EID:10ba 205586e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e56
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to George Rudzinski <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, George Rudzinski mumbled "Question"
GR> I've asked this question before. And I'm going to ask it again.
GR> Are there any Black users of this echo?
GR> Or is this echo the conversvative version of "Whiteland"?
PS> Does it make a difference?
Preston,
Well it does to me. I like to think that I'm talking to America, and that
includes black people. I mean I know that I'm talking to gays and women
on
this echo, I would like the dialouge to include blacks as well.
george
... "Dole 96! Dole 96!" Gee, he doesn't look a day over 72.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:48:53
EID:9117 20562e00
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e57
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to George Rudzinski <=-
GR> Or is this echo the conversvative version of "Whiteland"?
MH> What are you, some kind of racist?
Yeah! I'm a racist, I'm interested in seeing that all races participate.
MH> Why should it matter?
If there are no black people posting here, something is wrong.
george
... I don't have time to go to church, I've got to clean my rifle.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Play catch-up
|Date: 22 Feb 96 05:56:14
EID:ffdd 20562f00
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e58
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Ryan Shaw <=-
RS> You are obviously not familiar with the power that the 12 Jewish
RS> bankers have over all members of this conference.
RS> To change a subject heading would be an impossible task.
MM> Ok, so I will have to do this the hard way..... I'll play catch-up and
MM> read as many as I can to learn the different posters and their
MM> respective characters.
Ms Maiden,
I'm the nasty son-of-a-bitch who thinks all people who believe in imaginary
things are MORONS! I'm rude, intollerant of stupidy, about as subtle as
a
stiff dick and as sensitive to people's feelings as a spring clamp on a
guy's
nuts.
I thought I would save you some time figuring out what my character is like.
BTW, welcome to the echo.
george
... Christianity: mental loitering with intent.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:01:08
EID:3c34 20563020
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e59
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Sean McCullough <=-
SM> both rabies and tularemia, and have the same resilience to bubonic
SM> plague as their house-rat cousins (Rattus Norvegicus var. and R.
SM> rattus var.). You DON'T want to eat them -- a case, just like that
SM> for pork, on the threat being that of eater being too biologically
MM> Rats! Did someone say Rats?? That gets my attention. I probably
MM> wouldn't want to eat one either..... I'd feel like most people would
MM> eating a puppy.
Full?
I'm way too close to a rat to eat one. heheh
SM> itpersonally!! And BY NO MEANS reduce yourself to their level (except
SM> as obvious
SM> recreation! :).
MM> Hmmm that recreation could get tempting at times.
SM> trouble obtaining same (if you're the same Masochistic Maiden I know
SM> and love).
MM> That's who this is. I haven't run across another with the same alias
MM> anywhere yet.
SM> the titular subject) there is also informed debate on all facets of
SM> religion-impacted life going on here.
MM> Hmmmmm that sounds like what I'm looking for!
Dive right in.
SM> We call it the "HolySmoke Smorgasbord". You choose which subsets of
SM> the discussion you want to participate in. If you feel the fare is
SM> poor on scholarly discussion, YOU bring some up.
MM> I think I can play that game.... however, listening to the uh.....
MM> tripe people are throwing at each other will get... well at least
MM> annoying.
Probably one of our redeaming features. Being annoying is much better than
being deadly.
george
... "Dole 96! Dole 96!" Gee, he doesn't look a day over 72.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:12:57
EID:38f7 20563180
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5a
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Jason Ballard <=-
JB> pay debt to anymore is your so called god. But what about my god, the
JB> earth, the trees and animals. The gaian theory, Wotan and Ulik. Those
MM> I think possibly you assume too much. I have not stated a religious
MM> pathway, nor a chosen diety. So, why the attack?
That statement makes me think you are a Christian, they claim to whine very
easily.
Is it possible that
MM> your desire for vengence has created a tendency to jump to conclusions
MM> and judge people a bit quickly?
Definately Christian.
MM> Wotan, isn't that the Teutonic form of Odin? A rather interesting
MM> All-father who dealt well with self-sacrifice in hanging on a tree to
MM> receive a sacred alphabet known as Runes. I think I see some desire
MM> for communication in that sacrifice. And communication is a good
MM> first step to diplomacy. I think I'd have liked him.
JB> yet we are among the cruelest race of creatures alive, god is no more
JB> crueler then what he has made man.
MM> So, why do we maintain this hostility?
It prevents armed conflict. Well documented in the animal world, it is
called
posturing.
JB> it comes down to this. There can only be one religion to the
JB> christians why can they let us go our seperate ways instead of trying
JB> to become a monarchy so there plagued religion can take over the
JB> world.
MM> Well, while I do realize that there are some Christians who push for
a
MM> religious/social government union, I do not think they are necessarily
MM> a majority.
Now I know for sure you are a Christian, you just aren't one of those
Christians. You are providing yourself with some wriggle room when one
of
your well meaning but sadly mis-guided brethren starts pumping lead into
people on orders from god.
Maybe they are just highly vocal? (I can tell this is a
MM> emotional response, you have begun to use run-on sentences in a
MM> similar manner that I may do at times.)
JB> I pray for forgiveness to the earth, the trees, the land, they
JB> suffer because of us, the animals, the seas, the streams and oceans
JB> are flooded and filled with our hatred. There is no longer a thing as
MM> So, do you only pray, or do you also give volunteer time to clean-up
MM> opperations? Is attention to waste of extinguishable products of
MM> importance to you? We have a local Clean-Stream team that is entirely
MM> volunteer staffed. I'm sure Gaia appreciates the efforts given by
MM> each person.
I prefer to keep the stream from getting dirty in the first place and putting
people who dirty the stream in prison.
JB> are flooded and filled with our hatred. There is no longer a thing as
JB> peace, hatred as filled this earth and no one can stop that now.
MM> The world is NOT completely filled with hatred as long as some of us
MM> refuse to harbor that emotion. It may be more difficult to act on our
MM> beliefs than it is to discuss them. I just don't want to waste time
MM> on destructive attitudes.
Then stay away from religion, it is a mind killer.
JB> There is nothing but constant hate, braught on by your religions,
JB> there use to be no hate no indifferences until this so called thing
JB> religion came, we were just ordinary creatures, like dogs and birds,
MM> I feel that hatred is more likely the result of inner anger that
MM> hasn't been dealt with.
More Christian drivel.
Every religion I have looked at teaches the
MM> same rules of respect for others, integrity, honor, knowledge, and
MM> experience under a canopy of love.
And every religious killing is done in the name of love.
The representatives of every faith
MM> that I have visited range from those filled with intolerance and
MM> hatred to those who use thier time to further thier own growth.
Not much growth in believing in things that don't exist.
Inside
MM> and outside the religious world you find intolerance existing side by
MM> side with tolerance. I think it's more of a personal choice.
Then why do people use god to justify intolerance?
george
... 1-800-Go-Pat-Go. Contribute to the working man's hero!
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Beliefs.
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:18:37
EID:9431 20563240
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5b
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Shelby Sherman <=-
MM> Hello, Thanks for the reply.
MM> Hmmmmm what is the purpose in debunking another's faith?
SS> That's what this echo is about. You have a simple choice. Either
SS> livewith it or find another echo.
MM> I have a third choice, participate in the echo to exchange points of
MM> view, without trying to arrive at who's faith is better than who's.
Why bother with faith in the first place? It is a waste of time. What
is, is,
and what isn't, isn't. No amount of faith has ever changed that.
MM> I still would like someone to answer the question, what is the PURPOSE
MM> in debunking another's faith.
Why growth of course! As a child outgrows the need for Santa so too must
our
race out grow the need for gods. The sooner we realize that there isn't
some
nicer place to go after we die, the sooner we will realize that what we
do here
is all that matters. When we realize that we will concentrate on the here
and
now instead of wasting time on that which does not exist.
If there is an entire message area
MM> devoted to such a practice there must be a purpose. What need or
MM> desire is met by the practice?
Again the answer is growth.
SS> What do you believe in?
MM> Ummmmm maybe curiosity? Certainly I am a curious person. I hold honor,
MM> integrity, knowledge, and experience beneficial in life. I find value
MM> in scientific and mythic works. I'm pretty much in favor of freedom
of
MM> speech, yet appreciate respectful conversation above namecalling.
I
MM> return the question> What do you believe in?
Not a damn thing. I put away my belief toys a long time ago.
george
... National Center for Missing & Abused Children. Call 1-800-THE-LOST.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Subject Headers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:22:15
EID:0bdb 205632c0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5c
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
RM> Don't bother trying to fit in. The place is a disaster area,
MM> Hmmmm then perhaps I should buy my modem a hard hat?
Hasn't Styx sent you your asbestos underwear?
RM> everythingis all jumbled up, and there's no place to fit in anyway.
MM> OK, so that's why I seem to see so many elbows being sharpened!
MM> Everyone is vying for position and only the hardy survive? This echo
MM> should exhibit the behavioral patterns of evolution then?
And believers don't normally last too long.
RM> Just be you and chat. (BTW, being a masochist is probably an
RM> advantagearound here).
MM> Yeah, my real worry is that I may not be Sadistic enough to enjoy the
MM> battle.
Knowledge can only be gained by knock-down drag-out bar brawls.
george
... Typical fundie, kill his god for him and he doesn't even thank you.
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:43:31
EID:38f7 20563560
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5d
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Jason Ballard <=-
JB> It is true that people believe what they want to believe, but
JB> to teach them a lie, to fill there heart with lies and make them
JB> believe in lies. Turn them from what they really are, the animals
MM> Ummmmm, silly question here, but what lies are you worried about? It
MM> seems to me that differences of perspective are often called lies by
MM> those who insist that only one way can be the truth.
Normally only one way can be the truth.
JB> believe in lies. Turn them from what they really are, the animals
JB> look at us and say what the hell has become of you? Why can't you be
JB> yourselves who you truly were meant to be, if god intended us to live
MM> Oh, yummy, a dog eat dog world. Ummmm this may sound strange, and I
MM> don't want to be offensive here, but isn't intolerance,
MM> overgeneralization, and such exactly what you hold against organized
MM> religion?
Nope! Organized religion is the use of fear of mortality as a form of control.
It is an insidious cancer that profits from doubt.
JB> in peace, then he would create one surpreme religion so why thare
JB> there so many beliefs? Why has religion changed so much throughout
MM> As an expression of diversity? As an expression of the drive for
MM> power over others? As a restraint for those who lack power over the
MM> self?
That is why we have a system of justice.
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
JB> all born pagans in the beginning why changed beliefs, christians are
JB> the supremacists they fight for there religion to take over the world
JB> and don't try to tell me other wise I have seen it with my own eyes
MM> Hmmmm I've seen religious, and non-religious organizations attempt at
MM> controlling the masses.
True, but the non-religious have to make there case, they can't pull god
out
of their ass when their arguments fail.
Just as once the Pagani of Rome forced
MM> members identified with new religious thoughts into the arena with the
MM> Lions or otherwise discriminated against those who were different, the
MM> Christians of later times hung, burned, and pressed people who they
MM> saw as different.
Anyone the Romans killed, did so for reasons of political stabilization
for
the most part. If you paid your taxes and obeyed the law, they didn't
much
care what you believed in.
No one group can throw mud without it winding back
MM> up in their own face. I've had proselytizing groups of everything
MM> from Seventh-Day-Adventists, to Dianetics adherants arrive at my door.
Get a garden hose and a reputation of being willing to use it. Hey! It
worked for me.
MM> They have all respectfully left when I said I perfered not engaging
in
MM> discussion with them at that time. Amazingly few return at a later
MM> date.
Try living in the capital city of the CRC. Those folks will pray for you
on
your porch while you are hosing them down.
JB> humans color of the skin doesn't make a difference, but to the bible
JB> it says that there is a difference, we are all the same creature no
JB> difference then all the rest, but dogs and cats no gods do they pray.
JB> You don't see an animal praying, and if all men can go to heaven why
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
MM> I don't want to sound like a school teacher, but I'm having problems
MM> telling exactly what you are trying to say. "but dogs and cats no god
MM> do they pray." Is a little scrambled. Do you mean that dogs and cats
MM> do not pray? If that is your meaning, how do you know? Can you read
MM> their thoughts; do you know their language well enough to discuss such
MM> matters with them?
A little observation of the animal world should be enough to show you they
are
short one god.
I prefer to simply respect them a fellow
MM> creatures and not anthropomorphize their thoughts. Some things we
MM> simply do not have the skills to discern at this stage of our
MM> development.
JB> how they brag and brag, how they want there money, god doesn't need
JB> there money, we don't need god, we need ourselves, we don't need a
JB> god to watch over us when we can all watch over ourselves. We all
MM> I respect any person who values independance, but such assuridity of
MM> one's own self-sufficiency sounds a lot like the bragging you
MM> mentioned at the beginning of the statement. Do you see needing
MM> others as a form of weakness and vunerability?
Needing something that doesn't exist is a form of not only weakness but
illness.
All we have is ourselves, each other, and the world we live in. No big
sky
daddy is going to make this place work, only we can do that.
Is it difficult for
MM> you to rely on friends, nursing staff, mechani, or grocer when you do
MM> not have the means to supply all your own needs?
That is not what he was talking about.
JB> can the beast of the earth, the wild, the animals the trees? We were
JB> all born pagans in the beginning why changed beliefs, christians are
MM> Again, I feel like I'm maybe not getting the full meaning of your
MM> sentences. Do you mean that since we are all born without formed
MM> belief systems that we should remain in that state?
Absolutely!
Hmmmmmm I wasn't
MM> born with the ability to feed myself either....
Sure you were, you were hard-wired with a rooting reflex.
should I still be
MM> being fed today? Beliefs are learned material that we choose to
MM> follow... or ignore as the case may be.
Beliefs are lies told children when adults either don't have the answers
or
are afraid to tell children the real answers. "Grandpa went to heaven to
be
with Jesus." When in reality, grandpa got recycled and is feeding the friggin'
worms as nature intended.
The former is garbage the latter is the truth.
JB> must become a supreme race of beings, but religion changes that, the
JB> wars, the scars of the past nothing can be changed, and yet the war
JB> continues within, there will never be anymore peace, so why not fight
MM> The scars of the past can be soothed when the current members of
MM> society refuse to repeat the actions of the past.
That is why I'm an atheist.
What war continues
MM> within you? Why do you feel such deep hostilities that you are
MM> willing to engage in the very type of action you despise?
Because we are all human and have to fight those hostilities each day, every
day. That is part of who we are and we better learn to live with it and
control it.
MM> During this post you have said you need no god (God as you choose),
MM> yet have seemed very emphatic that you want one. Why?
He still needs to grow. If he hangs around us old time Smokers will take
him
there.
JB> back.. They want to rip me of my beliefs then i'll fight them to the
JB> end.. Take care friend.
MM> Who wants to? Only you can cause your beliefs to be less fulfilling
MM> for you. Hey? since you said you need no god, why would you be
MM> willing to fight for something you do not need? I'm confused again.
Don't be, planet worshippers get weird.
george
... Jesus to crowd: "No! I said picnic not pick nits! Damn apes." gr/DC
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Friends?
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:47:10
EID:da24 205635e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5e
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Jason Ballard <=-
JB> continues within, there will never be anymore peace, so why not fight
JB> back.. They want to rip me of my beliefs then i'll fight them to the
JB> end.. Take care friend.
MM> Ummmmmmm there can only be peace if we choose to be peaceful. Who is
MM> the they that want to rip your beliefs away?
I'm one of 'em.
That is really an
MM> impossible task.
It has been done before.
They (whoever they are) may discuss various belief
MM> systems, or even pass legislation against practices, but nothing, nor
MM> anyone, except yourself can change your beliefs. They are an act of
MM> choice that can remain in privacy without them becomming less
MM> fulfilling to you. That there should never be a need to maintain
MM> silence on ones beliefs, is certainly an acceptable goal.
MM> I'm a little uncomfortable sharing the category of friend with you.
I
MM> choose my friends from a less hostile group of people,
Ah! You prefer dullards and sheep.
Then you are wading in the wrong pool here. Most of us prefer sharks, you
learn from sharks or get eaten by them.
george
... The difference between God and a weasel. I've seen a weasel. gr
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: One Staal (Under his god)
|Date: 22 Feb 96 06:53:11
EID:62e6 205636a0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 312f1e5f
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Fredric Rice <=-
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
NS> Fredric Rice > Norbert Sykes : One Staal (Under his god)
FR> And another twenty took its place.
ns> Well, there's your problem...you got the porch
ns> light on. Attracts all kinds of loathsome bugs...};)
FR> I'm gonna have to install some no-fundy strips and some fundy-zappers.
NS> The zappers are better. The strips don't kill then instantly, so
NS> they're free to annoy for a while. Good thing you aren't putting
NS> up Fundy Paper . . . a score or two of Fundies stuck to gummed
NS> paper screaming `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!' over and over is no
NS> picnic.
Norbert,
With a woman and a case of beer it could be.
You really have to crank up the radio and then your
NS> neighbors complain. Better a quick death, I think . . .
Hell with the radio, just have sex, what do you think the neighbors are
going
to listen to?
george
... 1-800-Go-Pat-Go. Contribute to the working man's hero!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Who cares?
|Date: 24 Feb 96 18:14:59
EID:73a7 205891c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 0f2f9fae
REPLY: 03059800
On (21 Feb 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Les Wilcox...
LW> Would you like to make a $50.00 donation to the ministry so I
LW> can register this copy of Wave Rider? If not I'll just answer
LW> you on line so that you'll drop this subject.
AS> Les, I have offered to send you, on my expense, a copy of a
AS> freeware mail reader called SLMR, on a disc. I might have to
AS> wait a little while while I get my new computer system, but
AS> the offer still stands.
LW> What does your god tell you, Ceppa?
AS> More importantly. What does God tell us in the Bible?
I'm sure the Bible doesn't tell you to put makeup on pimples, so
the neighbors won't know you have them. That's all that sending
him that disk will do; it won't make him one whit more honest. In
fact, I could convincingly argue that he'll be less honest,
because he'll then be covering up his dishonesty.
... Awright, who peed in the gene pool?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Austin Miles
|Date: 24 Feb 96 18:17:59
EID:e41b 20589220
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 0c3e476d
REPLY: 0305B84E
-On (21 Feb 96) Al Schroeder wrote to David Rice...
AS> once or twice invited me to her church, I invited her to
AS> mine, but she was a little far gone for my tastes. There were
AS> a few others here, but that was about the time I was reading
AS> a Greek-English word-for-word commentary of the New Testament
AS> in the breakroom, and I saw one or two start to approach me,
AS> and then think better of it.
Austin Miles was a minister in the Assembly of God Church. The
church didn't exactly take away his wife and child; what it did
was make such a stink over him by spreading lies about him in
order to attempt to whip him into line, that his family got fed up
with his obsessive attempts to clear his name while ignoring them.
While I don't in any way hold the AoG church blameless in the
matter, I do hold that Austin Miles had more than a casual
connection to the outcome, which was the loss of both his wives
and his daughter.
The book is titled _Don't Call me Brother_, ISBN 0-87975-507-5.
It's a fairly easy read, and might provide you with some
entertainment. But don't look for any deep insights into his
character, because he was and is seemingly incapable of deep
introspection, and spends altogether too much time and page-space
blaming everybody but himself for his troubles. Actually, much
of his headache was a product of his inability to know when to
cut his losses (i.e., perseveration).
David tells us he has once again joined the AoG movement. I've
read nothing to confirm or deny that assertion in any of my
secular/skeptic/atheistic reading, which is considerable. That, of
course, does not mean David is mistaken; it just means I can't
confirm the claim.
... Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: spontaneous abortion
|Date: 24 Feb 96 19:02:51
EID:abc8 20589840
MSGID: 1:207/212 25c2ad0a
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 85c7c590
On (23 Feb 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael Hardy...
KW> Mike, you are out in left field with this. A woman doesn't have to
do
KW> anything to loose baby after baby. You are vicious if you claim that
KW> it is her fault. Women were miscarrying long before tobacco came into
KW> common usage. I would suggest that you do a little research before
KW> you make any more nakedly ignorant and markedly nasty comments like
KW> the
KW> above.
I've learned from a friend who had several miscarriages that she is very
sensitive to pitocin [one of the drugs doctors give you to induce
labor]. Guess what contains pitocin?
Semen!
... Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: FOF "hate" 3
|Date: 24 Feb 96 19:10:40
EID:917f 20589940
MSGID: 1:207/212 435b0dae
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892C4389
On (23 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Judith Bandsma...
MH> With, as I recall, the insistence that abortion be pushed as a backup
MH> method of in case contraception fails. "Reproductive rights" in
MH> America is usually a code word for abortion; I see no reason to doubt
MH> that it
MH> is at least partly that in this case too.
Reproductive rights means just that. ALL reproductive rights - to engage
in consentual relations, to conceive, or to prevent or end pregnancy.
JB> using to kill babies and give condoms to kids.
JB> [Non-inflammatory rhetoric, eh, Mike?]
MH> It is inflammatory. It is also true.
No babies are killed. Babies are born and breathe.
JB> By the way, President Clinton recently repeated his campaign
JB> statement that "abortion should be safe, legal and rare."
JB> How can he utter those farcical words at the very moment he
JB> is involved to his eyeteeth in the promotion of abortion in
JB> every nation on earth?
MH> A good question.
Promotion does not equal ensuring legality. One can ensure the legality
of firearms without promoting their ownership.
MH> Another good point. If Dobson strongly disagrees with the values
MH> pushed at the conference, Judith, why doesn't he have the right to
MH> say so
MH> without being branded a hatemonger?
Because not one of his views or arguments is based on facts. He is lying
to make those he opposes look wrong. And since he does it deliberately,
it is hatemongering.
... ///////||||||||||||||| Oh No! Tagline dominos! Run!
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: An interesting situation
|Date: 25 Feb 96 05:14:26
EID:b58f 205929c0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62ae7074
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ed65feb1
JH>> You can use IPA if you want to, I'm partial to sodium
JH>> hydroxide.
KW> You are missing the insult value.
I don't care about the insult value. I want to eat the flesh off of
the front of his skull. Lye doesn't fuck around.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 25 Feb 96 05:18:10
EID:35db 20592a40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62ae74f8
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b441a23b
KW> Bound slave girl salt and pepper shakers, I'd guess.
JH>
JH> That WOULD sell!
KW> We'll display them on the shelf right next to that light up
KW> plastic jesus.
And the Elvis vibrators that play "Love me tender".
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Satanista, no! Pindeho, s
|Date: 25 Feb 96 05:20:30
EID:b507 20592a80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62ae7c69
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 38f5c461
KW> Maybe you didn't recognize it because off the top of my head, I
KW> mangled the spelling. It's Valiente, Doreen Valiente. She
KW> admits that she is the author of the wording of a good deal of
KW> Gardnerian ritual, but claims that the basic framework was
KW> already in place and very old when she was initiated by
KW> Gardener.
Name is vaugely familiar...
I'm going to have to make a trip into the Closet of Boxed
Up Paperbacks.
I may be gone for a few days.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Buchanan Bashing!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 05:31:21
EID:f938 20592be0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62ae92cf
REPLY: 1:123/319 56ccea64
MC> Did you hear that "kike" Koppel trying to crucify Pat on
MC> Nightline?
Does he need any help?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Get Saved!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 03:43:04
EID:39f2 20591d60
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 31302f28
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca8c
JP> Your belief that underlies the rest of your beliefs,
JP> is that you believe you are competent to judge God.
Ask a serious question, make a serious statement, what do I get
in return? Please spare me your judging. With the likes of you,
I'd of been sentenced to hell already.
I ask a sincere question, does god exist? How does that signify
that I'm judging anything, or for that matter, who said or implied
what I said was competent or incompetent? No don't answer that, I'm
not here to discuss what I did not say or imply.
Shoo, you are bothering me. Go play your silly games with someone else.
I'm looking for answers, not foolishness. My note in which you responded
to was deadly serious. Got it? Hope so.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Theist hypocrisy or tuggi
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:149e 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332a5
Michael Hardy wrote:
MH>Then you admit, along with Brian Kolacy, that there is no reason for
MH>atheists to be moral, other than their personal choice to be.
MH> A third admission that atheists have no reason to be moral.
MH> FOUR admissions that atheists have no morals. This is outstanding.
----
Please Mike! You are going to put me in to irony overload! Not that I
haven't seen similar - and worse - examples of dishonesty from the
God-fearing. _But_ something tells me you are trolling here .....
In case anyone missed the first three episodes: Mike unilaterally
concluded that the statements of a certain non-believer indicated the lack
of a reason to be moral other than "their personal choice to be."
There was nothing in the words he quoted that would give rise to that
interpretation. Essentially it was a straw man fallacy.
Mike did the same thing to another non-believer. And although he said it
confirmed the first, his conclusion omitted "...their personal choice to
be." (see MH quotes at the top of this message) - a subtle change of words
but a significantly different conclusion.
In his 4th time at bat, Mike went completely postal, changing his
assertion from atheists have "no reason to be moral" to atheists "have
no
morals." Slight change in wording - completely different conclusion.
The subtle alteration of the text in stages to reach the "no morals"
conclusion is not possible by accident, or even through a reckless
disregard for the truth.
Ergo: Mike is consciously being sophistical, committing what the Institute
of Propaganda Analysis calls an "unethical deception." Someone determining
anothers lack of morals by applying such over-the-top dishonesty exudes
irony of such unusual potency it is almost too bad to be true.
I think Mike is chain-yanking here, though I can't offer any evidence for
that conclusion (other than the intuitive power of my right-hemisphere
dominated brain. And my high school football injured knee is starting to
acting up. Oh wait a minute. That means it's going to rain...).
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Q. Why is the universe here? A. Where else would it be?
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:5acc 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332af
In a message dated 02-22-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> >> Sure I was, maybe I should make myself a little more specific? Whi
> >> church conducted the Crusades, the Inquisitions and the witch hunt
>
> EF> Ken, at the time of the Crusades there was only one Christian chu
> EF> Inquistion was conducted by the Catholic church. Witch hunts were
> EF> bag, church-wise. Did you have a point to make?
>
KM> Point to make, yes I do. If you trace my
KM> church back to it's beginnings you'll find
KM> that that same church persecuated many from
KM> faith or church. No matter what church they
Your church did??
KM> belong to, anyone committing these kind of
KM> acts are not Christians. To be a Christian
KM> means to be more Christ like, and they were
KM> not being Christ like.
Well I know it sounds logical, but it isn't. Why? Because by your
definition, no Christian ever did an un-Christ-like act. Ever!
Not because they are all so moral, but because the moment they did
something un-Christ-like they ceased being Christians.
It is a circular argument.
No true Christian ever committed a sin.
How do you know this?
Because if they did they were no Christian
How do you know this?
Because no true Christian ever committed a sin.
How do you know this?
Because if they did they were no Christian
etc etc forever and ever.
You can use the very same type argument to "prove" no politician ever
committed a dishonest act, all murderers are insane (and thus should be
hospitalized and treated), every Italian is a great lover, whatever.
Frankly, I sympathize with your position. I have a great deal of respect
for anyone who is willing to put the effort into emulating Jesus's more
sublime teachings. Damn few Christians I've encountered even pretended to.
But if you held the definition of Christian to strict Christ-like behavior
guidelines you could probably fit the entire church membership in a Pacer
with room left over for a couple of baskets of fish and loaves.
You see, your definition doesn't account for things like sin and
repentance. Does a Christian stop being one when he sins? Does he become
one again when he repents? You'd have people changing back and forth
several times a week or more, if so.
What's more it would be impossible for any Christian to be sure than
anyone else was a "true Christian" or not. How would you know what he was
really thinking? What about people with mental problems they can barely
control? The handicapped? The wealthy? What about people in the military?
Can you kill someone - even in time of war - and be considered truly
Christ-like? If you say yes then it blows your whole definition. I mean
JC
never killed anyone. He said turn the other cheek. Even if the soldier did
his duty to protect his country it isn't something Jesus EVER DID. If your
definition allows someone who has killed, then how could you refuse
someone, who, say refuses to give the shirt off his back to just anyone
who asks? Can you hear it now: A KILLER is ok but not ME??
In your case, you obviously haven't sold all your belongings and given the
money to the poor. But then again, neither did Jesus. So what do you do
in
this case? What JC said you should do, or what he actually did?
And this is just scratching the surface of that giant can of worms.
You have a right to your opinion on what defines a Christian. And you know
what? Mine isn't far from yours. But we don't make the definitions or
enforce them.
Oops! I don't see a single flame, or even any smoke in the above! Will
this get me kicked out of here? I'm just not trying hard enough I guess.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Will you come quietly, or shall I use ear plugs?
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: Re: Staal probably also b
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:b4a1 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332b9
In a message dated 02-22-96 Kenneth Mcabee wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> What Fred does not post is the rest of the message. The discussion wit
> came about after David asked me if I would kill my son if God asked me
> told him that my God would not ask me to because that would be a sacri
> he himself had sent his Son to die as the final sacrifice. The stateme
> Fred quotes comes out of that discussion. David kept saying that he di
> me about a sacrifice, and I told him that statement. I never admitted
> would do such an act, which is what Fred keeps claiming. I was telling
> that my God would not ask me to do it.
-----
But no believer can ever say they know for certain what God will or will
not do. To say you know the mind of God is saying your mind is greater -
which is blasphemy. Did any mortal in the Bible ever claim to know the
mind of God? For all you know, he could test your faith - like Job. Is it
impossible?
Furthermore, if you truly DID know for a fact what God would do, you'd be
hell-bound! Why? because faith is required for salvation. Faith is the
strongest of beliefs in something - without evidence of it. If you "know"
something certainly, then you cannot have faith in it.
The point is NOT whether or not your god will request you to kill your
son. Ok? It isn't the point. The point is would you obey your god -
whatever he asks you to do - or no? If he says "will you obey me?" are you
going to ask him what he wants first? Or will you say yes?
It is not a trick question. Your answer can be no different from that of
any good Christian. There is only one thing you can say.
>
> EF> A "morality" that says "taking an innocent life is ok - if my God
> EF> to" is no morality at all.
>
> I never made that statement either.
Indeed you did not. I did.
>
> EF> Don't you get it? An immoral act is immoral no matter who does it
> EF> "requests" it).
>
> Don't you get it, I never stated that I would do such and act, that is
> Fred is trying to get you to believe, but he's lieing. If he would bot
> post the rest of the message, you'de see that.
I understand. Now try to understand me. I know you have faith that your
god will never request you to kill. But understand it is a hypothetical
question. If I asked you what you would say to JC if he came to your door
tomorrow, would you refuse to answer because you know it is something he
isn't going to do?
Point is, to some of us, morality that is based on an unquestioned
"obedience" to the Biblical god is disturbing. There is a potential there
for the justification of ANY ACT as being moral. Note my word: POTENTIAL.
Not "will happen." "Could happen."
Look. If yours is the one true God then if I believe differently, I am in
error, right? You need not respect the beliefs of one known to be in
error, no more than you have to respect the beliefs of a driver going the
wrong way on a one way street. You have the only God so there is no
question in your mind you are right.
Is it a kindness to allow me to continue the error of my ways? What if
your kids were drawn to me and they started drifting from the true word?
How could you allow my error to infect the righteous? You wouldn't allow
someone to continue to drive the wrong way on your street would you? You
wouldn't allow a sick person to spread an illness would you?
----
Do you see where I'm going? A certainty that you possess the one true
(whatever) means that tolerance not only _doesn't_ make sense - it is down
right stupid. Would you allow your child - or anyone - to do something
that you KNEW would kill them? Would it be Christ-like to allow it? Are
you obliged to respect their free will if they wanted to lay down in the
middle of the freeway? Well how much more important is their soul?
You see? If you know you are right, there is no good reason to allow
others to behave wrongfully.
Now put the two concepts together: unquestioned obedience to a God, and
a
moral certainty - God IS on your side. Now you have people _just like you_
deeply religious, God fearing, moral Christians who want nothing other
than to do right - suddenly capable of awful things... but with love in
their hearts.
Asserting it can't happen here or can't happen now, flies in the face of
history. It has occurred with a sickening regularity.
Maybe the people who did this weren't really Christian, but they thought
they were, every bit as much as you do. Don't doubt it for a second. They
didn't.
Are you familiar with the beliefs of Pat Robertson? He is easily the most
powerful "Christian" in America today. Probably the most dangerous too.
He
has justified Old Testament genocide as an "an "act of love" - with a
gleam in his eye. Is he a Christian? Do you think he thinks so?
Anyway, maybe this gives you an idea what my concerns are.
Ciao
>
> Kenneth Mcabee
>> Sorry Fredric, but nowhere in the statement above did I admit that
>> sacrifice my own Son. Only that if God asked me to kill my son that I
>> it as a sacrifice.
EF> That's damning enough, Ken. It isn't too surprising that you were
unaware
EF> your admission demonstrates the situational ethics inherent in your
EF> religious dogma. To you and your ilk, murder can be bad or good,
depending
EF> upon who does (or who "requests") it.
What Fred does not post is the rest of the message. The discussion with
David
came about after David asked me if I would kill my son if God asked me to.
I
told him that my God would not ask me to because that would be a sacrifice
and
he himself had sent his Son to die as the final sacrifice. The statement
that
Fred quotes comes out of that discussion. David kept saying that he did
not ask
me about a sacrifice, and I told him that statement. I never admitted that
I
would do such an act, which is what Fred keeps claiming. I was telling
David
that my God would not ask me to do it.
EF> A "morality" that says "taking an innocent life is ok - if my God
tells me
EF> to" is no morality at all.
I never made that statement either.
EF> Don't you get it? An immoral act is immoral no matter who does it (or
EF> "requests" it).
Don't you get it, I never stated that I would do such and act, that is
what
Fred is trying to get you to believe, but he's lieing. If he would bother
to
post the rest of the message, you'de see that.
Kenneth Mcabee
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
I had my head x-rayed today. Nothing there.
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:cea7 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332c2
In a message dated 02-22-96 John Brawley wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
> EF> Hahahahahaha! That's pretty funny. Read Numbers 31 and then come
> EF> and explain why your loving god directed the genocidal slaughter
> EF> about
> EF> 60,000 to 100,000 captured women, children, and babies. Tell us w
> EF> the children did to deserve such a fate.
>
>
> Although it's an excellent idea to fight mindless creationism and
> perhaps even mindless belief-systems, it is NOT a good idea to make th
> same mistakes that the Fundies make (quoting selectively and with
> incorrect interpretation).
I agree, which is why I did not and do not employ such techniques.
>
> For this example, consider the actual words of Numbers 31, in the RSV
> my possession:
>
> "The LORD said to Moses, 'Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianite
> afterward you shall be gathered to your people.'"
So what do you think that meant? (My Bible says "Vex" instead of avenge)
Did Moses go overboard or did he do what his god expected of him?
What *I* said was the Biblical god _directed_ this slaughter, and he did.
It was as unnecessary for him to tell Moses to kill the women and children
as it was to tell him to kill all the men or to loot the place.
I mean "avenge" doesn't specifically imply "to loot" does it? Yet notice
God made sure he got his cut. So clearly "to loot" was understood. So was
"to kill every last man." And so was "to leave nothing else alive."
Why do I say that? Because to do this was SOP! That's why Moses was so
pissed when his men brought back the women and children. Here: check out
Numbers 21:34, an earlier slaughter (there are so many to choose from!!)
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him
into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him
as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon."
Notice God says "do the same to Og as you did to the Sihon king."
So what did Moses understand that to mean ? :35
"So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was
none left him alive: and they possessed his land."
Killed every last one of them.
> Note that in reading on _after_ that, all the actions taken were taken
> at the instructions of _Moses_.
Moses wasn't even at the scene of the battle.
>God does not again speak until 31:25,
> in which no hint of the slaughter is mentioned.
Not precisely true. I'll get to this in a moment.
> (This is about distribution of the booty.)
Hint: look at the list.
> Hence although your task is probably to good purpose (leading the Fund
> away from his own false interpretation), it isn't a good thing, to
> misuse the text in exactly the same way the Fundie does.
Once again I agree. Not only would I not do this, there isn't any reason
to if I were so inclined. Your conclusion that I have is a hasty one.
God didn't tell Moses to loot the place - but they did. God took his share
which clearly shows his approval of the action of looting (The fact that
God didn't admonish him for anything he did is ample proof of all Moses
actions. But we have better evidence than that.) God not only took his
share, he directed how all the loot would be split up. (and what "loot"
that was!)
And let's not loose sight of reality here. After all, when it comes right
down to it, Moses was really the only one calling the shots because there
_was no God_ for him to talk to.
THAT is the only real alternative. But regardless of how many slaughters
the Children of Israel conducted, believers would much rather accept their
"benevolent" god being in charge and responsible for it all (which he most
certainly was - if he existed) than the alternative. No contest!
For the sake of argument I must accept their stand point: the premise of
a
real Biblical God existing. It is not a pretty picture, my friend. I need
not embellish the anything. The words on the page say it all. Anyway, to
continue...
> Eh? Do you wish to reduce the impact of your arguments by MIS-
> understanding or misreading what is actually said in the portion of th
text that you are using as example?
Aw come on John! Cut me some slack here. Ok, smoking gun time. You said:
God does not again speak until 31:25,
> in which no hint of the slaughter is mentioned. (This is about
> distribution of the booty.)
Now I said that isn't exactly true. Meaning there being no hint of the
slaughter.
Numbers 31:25) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
(note: God speaking here)
Numbers 31:26) Take the sum of the prey that was taken, [both] of man and
of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the
congregation:
Huh? What does he mean "[both] of man and of beast"? Didn't they kill all
the men? Yes, but God says "man" as in "human" - meaning ... that's right
- the 32,000 virgins they spared for the pleasure of the armies! The
virgins are part of the spoil!
Numbers 31:40) And the persons [were] sixteen thousand; of which the
LORD'S tribute [was] thirty and two persons.
BANG!
God's share [ of 16,000, not 32,000: they previously divided the virgins
between the "men of war" and the general population] of the spared
virgins. Thirty-two given up [as a "heave offering"?] - meaning, probably,
human sacrifice. [notice God refers to them right along with the animals
as "prey" and they are spoken of exactly like the cattle and other booty.]
We can be fairly certain God didn't take his share of the "other" live
stock back to Heaven with him, so the fate of the 32 virgins _seems_
pretty obvious: the same as the rest of the "prey" that was God's
"tribute"
Yet, I can't prove it to my satisfaction so I do not claim it was human
sacrifice for certain. Even though I probably could get away with claiming
it, I do not. [It MIGHT be an incorrect interpretation. How's that John?
Is that what a fundie would do if the situation were reversed? ]
If one accepts the premise of the Biblical God, there can be no serious
argument that his will had not been done. Taking his "share" of the
virgins is just the topper. Believers don't dispute it Even Pat Robertson,
speaking specifically about Numbers 31, gives God full credit. I have a
700 club transcript of him discussing it in some detail. Naturally he
leaves out the part about the virgins being spared [That's what a fundie
would do].
Well I hope that clears this up. I'll try to post the Robertson thing too.
Ciao.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
God made me an atheist--who am I to question His divine will
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: Evolution: Fact&Theor
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:a905 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332cb
In a message dated 02-22-96 John Brawley wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> EF> In a message dated 02-13-96 Preston Simpson wrote to Eric Hendrix
>
> EF> > EH> For example, science says there could be ghosts/super-natur
> EF> bein > EH> But, they can't *prove* it. Any attempt I know of has
> EF> failed
> EF> > EH> miserably. In my opinion, that's because God doesn't want
> EF> humans > EH> poking and probing into the spiritual world, which
> EF> Bible says > EH> exists, for their own protection.
>
>
> EF> What?? For their "own protection"? You've got to be kidding. If y
> EF> god was concerned about "protecting" his children why would he al
> EF> such
> EF> things as earthquakes to kill millions of people?
>
>
> I note presence of "your god" in the above. Does this indicate that y
> disagree with the Judeo-Christian, or the Christian-Fundie, image-of-
> god, _specifically_?
Yes, but not in the sense that I depreciate their version of god in order
to apotheosize one that I happen to favor.
> Can there be, iyho, some other image-of-god that
> would be more acceptable to you?
Well sure, I suppose. I don't preemptively preclude it. On the other hand,
should we allow our petty human biases and desires to dictate what to look
for? The universe doesn't care that the human race seems to need a Sky
Daddy - whether there is one or not.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Sometimes what you learn conflicts with what you know
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 25 Feb 96 02:13:00
EID:1e14 205911a0
MSGID: 1:215/130 000332d5
In a message dated 02-22-96 John Brawley wrote to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
>
> EF> Or consider a fly landing on a table top. The fly occupies a sur
> EF> area of 1 mm^2. The table top is 1 metre x 1 metre, or 1,000,000
>
> Presuming a standard housefly, no housefly is only one square millimet
> in table-surface-covering area. (More like 30 or 40 mm^2; 8mm long by
> wide.)
>
> Imprecision in argument appears to be a fault of _both_ sides of this
> argument.
Well I'd have to see an example of....Oh wait a minute. Oh I see. Sure,
you're right. Well I'll beaSonofabitch. Thanks for pointing that out.
However, I must take exception (ok, mild exception) to your equating my
argument with theirs under the heading of "imprecise." Please note that
my
error in no way changed the point I was establishing. It was but one of
3
examples supporting my conclusion. The errors found on the other side are
fundamentally (no pun) flawed, without hope of salvation (pun).
> If your task is to "educate" the Fundie out of his ludicrou
> belief-system
Ahh no. I don't have the slightest interest in changing the mind of any
fundy. Not a goal of mine. Not now, not ever.
> (a fool's errand in the first place)
Yes, that's one of the reasons ...
it behooves you to
> be extremely and dedicatedly (if not 'deadly'), accurate in _your_
> side's argument.
On the contrary! Fundies _LOVE_ goofy ideas and sloppy research. In fact,
maybe that's the problem: I haven't said anything dumb enough yet to
really persuade them. But hey, but I'm working on it (though you just
dealt me quite a set back, John)
All seriousness aside of course I agree if, perhaps, for a different
reason. You know, someone gave me the fly example back, hell, it has to
be
3 or 4 years now. It has resided on my hard drive in my "probability"
folder ever since. I have trotted it out at least a dozen times in the
interim never thinking much about it. You are the first one to notice the
error of scale in all that time. So thanks again, I really do appreciate
it. The only thing I hate worse than doing something like that is being
unaware I am doing something like that. Way to go, John!
Now where was I? Oh yeah.
I don't think fundies are very impressed by deadly accuracy per se. I do,
however, work at being accurate and it will be a warm day on Pluto before
you catch me making a factual claim I can't document or cite a reference
for (though obviously I do make mistakes, as do the authors of said
references.)
I think the importance of accuracy when engaging fundies is to preclude
them from turning an error into the Red Herring Express and heading South.
>
> EF> > ... There are few atheists on deathbeds.
>
> EF> Really? How few, exactly?
>
> EF> > Those few are true fools.
>
> EF> I see. They are fools because they demand objective empirical evi
> EF> for their beliefs? Whereas the non-fool bases his beliefs on fait
> EF> what he hopes and wishes were true? Or do you mean that anyone wh
> EF> disagrees with you regarding your God belief is a fool?
> It's possible for one to be atheistic on the deathbed _because_ the
> person has found no rational, reasonable, accurate or reliable data
> while alive, to support the belief in a god.
(?) Hmmmm. Well yeah. Except I would replace "possible" with "necessary"
or "obligatory". Given the reasons you list, what alternative is there?
Even if you wanted to, how could you ever go back once you have eaten the
fruit of knowledge? One might wish to return to the moment before the
garden melted away but you can never un-bite that apple.
---
TIMM 1.0.2 - The Ideal Mac Mailreader.
Politeness is asking a beggar if he'll take a check
* Origin: Hayward, CA//510-786-6560//28800 (1:215/130)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Subject Headers
|Date: 24 Feb 96 21:01:02
EID:3d87 2058a820
MSGID: 1:352/266 31300972
SM> (a) Accept the Echo as it is; or
SM> (b) Get the fuck out, NOW.
Sot of what I've already sumised. It may take a bit to learn which characters
are interesting and which I'll by-pass. Thanks for letting me know how
it works here.
SM> It's just part of finding your way around here. Soon, it'll be second
SM> nature.
Hope so!
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Wandering topics
|Date: 24 Feb 96 21:04:02
EID:bb14 2058a880
MSGID: 1:352/266 31300973
KW> FIDO ate your original post to me. :)
Hungry FIDO, be a good doggy.
KW> This idjit refuses to quote. We know that he can do it, he has a
Hmmmm that could explain things rather nicely. I've run across a few others
who refuse to quote.
KW> place in here. As it is a very busy message base, no one even
KW> attemptsto keep the topic lines current.
Ummmmm I guess I'll adjust after a while. Wish me luck!
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: John Prewett
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:17:26
EID:4cf2 20588a20
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 13073540
FMPT 1012
JB> On 19 Feb 96, John Prewett wrote:
JP> ps- One might bear in mind that I've spent thousands of hours and
JP> thousands of dollars distributing a message to my fellow citizens that
JP> [though they now think it is crazy] I hope and believe will eventually
JP> prove to be very beneficial to those of my fellow citizens who
JP> ultimately believe that message.
JB> Odd, isn't it, that others, of directly oppositional persuasion, might
JB> say exactly the same thing? Me, for example, spending whatever-buck$
it
JB> takes to run an anti-creationism messaging system for five years now....
Like people at the track bet on different horses.
JB> You suffer the approbation of the opposition, no matter _which_ side
JB> you're on, but oddly enough _you_ (no matter which side you're on) think
JB> you are the only one who is right, and the other side is always wrong.
JB> Something illogical about that.
Yep,... no matter what you contend is TRUE,
some will say "Amen", and others will say "that's crazy."
JB> ... If God is real, we will not find Him 'outside' of reality.
Course, when it comes to God,...
one must bet the fate of one's eternal soul.
IMHO, of course. WBW, Johh
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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|From: John Prewett
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 24 Feb 96 18:04:00
EID:6af7 20589080
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 13073541
FMPT 1012
JB> On 19 Feb 96, John Prewett wrote:
JP> Nobody owes anybody a job.
JH> Everyone is due fair treatment.
JH> Firing someone for "no reason at all" is not fair treatment.
JP> Sure it's fair. If the employer is "bad",
JP> then he won't be able to keep "good" employees,
JP> and "good" people will shun his business.
JP> Therefore, due to competition with a "good" employer,
JP> the "bad" business owner will eventuall go out of business.
JP> This is called "free enterprise" at work.
JB> Sure as heck sounds like the essence of _evolution_ to _me_.....
To me too.
JP> It's part of what made America the most free
JP> and properous nation the world had ever seen.
JB> Interesting. A nation supposedly founded
JB> on Christian principles, .............
The supreme "CHRISTian" command is "love one another."
No economic system or temporal nation embodies that command.
But, the closer any nation or group comes to embodying that command,
the more is will prosper.
God's has no problem with "survival of the fittest."
Whosoever worships God in "spirit and truth"
is deemed fit to survive.
JB> claims its ascendancy derives from the power of free enterprise
JB> -- a totally "survival of the fittest"-oriented attitude.
After the Reformation, all the nations which went Protestant
experienced unprecedented economic, scientific, technological
growth and advancement.
JP> It's also fair because anyone that don't like it
JP> can start their own business.
JH> But I don't expect a Christian to grasp such concepts...
JP> I just don't agree with anti-freedom, enterprise strangling,
JP> poverty-creating c/o/m/m/u/n/i/s/t liberal concepts.
JB> Nor with evolution, I'll warrant, in spite of lovin' the heck out
JB> of the American historical business free-enterprise application
JB> of evolution's principle mechanism (selection)....
I have no problem with "evolution."
Technology "evolves."
Due to intelligent input.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 24 Feb 96 18:51:00
EID:3cfc 20589660
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892E0F27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 13:18, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: HI, Staal
AH> (allegedly also God) was on earth. That makes TWO gods, and Isaiah
45:5
AH> says there's only one.
KM> I and my Father are one. That makes ONE God.
DC> So, just who was your godling praying to? Some false god in heaven?
JB> Telling blow. Fast, short, and succinct. I've used that one many
What can I say... I was in a hurry!
JB> (One _could_ pick "and" out of "I and my Father are one," instead of
JB> "are one," hence indicating the plurality right inside the quote
JB> itself, but that'd probably just confuse things more....)
And that still wouldn't work. If they really were the same, there
would be no point in praying to yourself.
Of course, an argument could be made for a god with the MPD that
Staal evinces. <-- Look it up, Bro Jim, if you can get the
dictionary out from under your milk crate.
... "They must have been praying to some cheap, off-brand Lord." J. Vee
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Keith Pachulski
|Sub: THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE A
|Date: 24 Feb 96 19:04:00
EID:9588 20589880
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892E0F28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 08:12, Keith Pachulski got back to Al Schroeder
KP> I never said I was Wiccan...I just date one...but to be fair I do
KP> follow one of the "Pagan" (I hate that term) paths.
Try using "The True Righteous Paths". That should piss off the fundies,
or at least confuse the hell out them (which is probably an oxymoron).
... Born-Again-Radical-Fundamentalists..... B.A.R.F's
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: children
|Date: 24 Feb 96 19:33:00
EID:a678 20589c20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892E0F29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 22:57, Preston Simpson got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> It's about that high, Preston. Got the figures from the Washington
DC> State department that did the surveys. Those figures are nation-wide.
PS> Mea culpa.
I also have various stats for the abortions that have been performed
in this state over a 20 yr period. As the last entries were
from 1990, I think I'll call andget an updated data packet.
The most telling of these are that the number of abortions are
rather steady from year to year, especially since 1977 through
1990. Also, the abortions provided have primarily been performed
on single women. That figure consistantly was above 70%.
DC> I also have them on a more personal basis from the stats of both of
DC> my sisters. One is a bit below that figure. The other one is far
PS> My condolences.
Thank you. However, they were both able to have had 2 children
each. I've got 3 nephews and one neice. I'm sure they have more
than made up for the problems they went through. This is especially
true of my older sister that I'm sure was devastated every time
she lost a pregnancy. They stopped announcing pregnancies until
she was at least 4 months along. It made it a bit easier for her
to deal with things. Even then, she had one big scare late in
the pregnancy of her oldest.
The good thing is that she never became overly protective of her
2 boys. They each play hockey, and very well, I might add! BTW,
my present for the kids at birth was a hockey puck.... :)
... "Inconceivable!" - Vinzinni
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 23 Feb 96 08:18:06
EID:fc33 20574240
MSGID: 1:284/120 5803a65b
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011262
Thanx...I already figured that out a bit too late. When I down loaded the
conferences into my reader, it didn't pick up the word "debate" after "religious".
If I'd known it was a dabate conf, I would not have written such a post.
Sorry.
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: All
|Sub: Angels...
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:19:00
EID:4c28 20576260
MSGID: 1:284/120 5803a66c
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011262
OKAY, PEOPLE, I GET THE POINT ALREADY, SO YOU CAN STOP FILLING MY MAILBOX
WITH THE SNIDE COMMENTS. I WILL NOW BOW OUT, NEVER TO BOTHER YOU AGAIN.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Evolung
|Date: 22 Feb 96 07:50:38
EID:93ec 20563e40
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f027d
REPLY: 1:215/130 00149284
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Andrew Masten <=-
EF> In a message dated 02-14-96 Andrew Masten wrote to Aaron Boyden:
> -=> Quoting Aaron Boyden to Andrew Masten <=-
>
> > "When it come to the origins of life there are
> > only to possiblities:
> > Creation or spontaneous generation (evolution).
> > There is no third way.
> > Spontaneous generation was disproved 100 years
> > ago, but that leads us
> > to only one other conclusion: that of supernatural
> > creation. We cannot
> > accept that on philosophical grounds. Therefore we
> > choose to believe
> > the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by
> > chance."
>
> > Is this the writings of some wild eyed bible
> > thumping fanatic? No
> > its a quote from George Wald winner of the 1967
> > science Nobel Peace
> > Prize.
>
> AB> The trouble is, spontaneous generation per se has never been
> AB> disproved. It was proven that spontaneous generation does not oc
> AB> in dead animal flesh, but that isn't what a theory of mundane ori
> AB> for life requires. As I understand it, recent research has indic
> AB> that RNA can catalyze the formation of other RNA. Thus, all that
> AB> would be required for life to appear would be a self-replicating
> AB> strand. DNA and proteins would be later mutations, in accord with
> AB> evolution. This is entirely consistent with the data that sponta
> AB> generation isn't going on these days, because matter which would
> AB> useful for producing such RNA is prone to being immediately snatc
> AB> up by one of the much more highly evolved lifeforms that are arou
> AB> these days. In other words, George Wald didn't have a clue (assu
> AB> you're quoting him accurately).
>
> I did quote him correctly.
EF> We will decide that when - and if - you provide the citation for this
EF> quote so that we may examine it for ourselves. By "citation" I mean
EF> information sufficient to locate the quote: if in a book, its name,
EF> author, publisher, and the page # where it can be found. Get it?
Who's we? In any event, Wald, George "The Origin of Life" New York:
Simon and Schuster.
> A problem you wouldn't have since you [quoted]
> no one in your refutation.
EF>
EF> Ok, how's this?
EF>
EF> The Adelaide advertiser,30-Aug).
EF> Title: Non-believing cleric sacked
EF> LONDON: A clergyman who trains priests said yesterday he was saddened
EF> but not surprised he had been sacked from his post after admitting
he
EF> did not believe in God.
EF> The Reverend Anthony Freeman said he felt a great sense of relief when
EF> he admitted to himself he did not hold to the traditional view of
EF> God.
EF> He was dismissed from his post as director of post-ordination training
EF> by the Bishop of Chicester, Dr Eric kemp, after being told his views
EF> were incompatible with his job.
EF> "I was saddened that it was felt I had to go but I suppose it was
EF> unsurprising," he said.
EF> Mr Freeman said he believed in a Christian humanism which meant God
EF> was merely "the sume of human aspirations" rather than "a supernatural
EF> being intervening in man's affairs".
EF> In his book God in Us he said: "There is nothing 'out there' and if
EF> there is, we can have no knowledge of it."
EF> His refusal to withdraw the book from publication next month led to
EF> his sacking.
EF> ------
EF> There you go. I mean, you don't pretend to know more about theology
EF> than a seminary trained clergyman do you?
Some seminary schools are so secular, you can get a degree without even
knowing the names of the books of the bible.
>Then you suggest this man who won a scientific
> nobel peace prize hasn't a clue, but you do?
EF> You won't suggest this seminary trained Reverend hasn't a clue, but
EF> you do? And what's this "scientific nobel peace prize" BS? I mean
EF> look at this:
>> "When it come to the origins of life there are
> > only to [sic] possiblities:
EF> This is a logical fallacy, the one known as "bifurcation." (the claim
EF> that there are only two alternatives when others can and do exist)
Why
EF> are there only "to" (sic) possiblities? Because he says so? I hardly
EF> think a scientist would make such a claim - without offering evidence
EF> in its support - and it is even less likely that a scientist would
EF> expect any other scientist to accept such a claim on his say-so.
Why don't you counter this argument by explaining what the other alternatives
are?
> Creation or spontaneous generation (evolution).
> > There is no third way.
EF> A "scientist" would know that evolution doesn't have _anything_ to do
EF> with the orgins of life. Your ignorance on this point is
EF> understandable, expected even. But from an alleged "scientist?"
EF> Furthermore he commits another logical fallacy: the "straw man"
EF> (attacking evolution for something the theory says _nothing_ about.)
The theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin in his book Origins and
Species has nothing to do with origins?
>Spontaneous generation was disproved 100 years
> ago
EF> What tripe!
EF> Therefore we
> > choose to believe
> > the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by
> > chance
EF> Another straw man, the stock and trade of theistic anti-evolutionists
EF> the world over. Again: evolution says not a single word about
EF> bio-genesis, let alone that it came about by "chance." What kind of
a
EF> "scientist" is this?
If it didn't come about by chance, then are you suggesting it came about
by design?
> Is this the writings of some wild eyed bible
> > thumping fanatic?
EF> If it walks like a duck ....
> > No
> > its a quote from George Wald winner of the 1967
> > science Nobel Peace
> > Prize.
EF> Last, but not least, _you_ commit the logical fallacy of impropper
EF> appeal to authority. Science advances by the weight of evidence, not
EF> the fact-free assertions of ANYONE - regardless of their stature. But
EF> since you and your religion DOES depend on just such "evidence" -
EF> assertions by authority figures - I am not surprised you assume that
EF> everyone else does too.
And did you come to believe in evolution from personal observation, or
because authorities informed you of the theory?
ML>And all we ask is evidence; real, cold, hard, physical evidence
ML>for the support of these claims. Otherwise it's all just some
ML>hoary mental construct with any sort of foothold in reality.
ML>And, now, how can one evaluate the pros and cons of purely
ML>mental constructs?
ML>The playing ground is level, Andy. I can supply literally tons
ML>of evidence to support my contention.
ML>Can you claim the same?
Okay, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I am up to the
challenge! Let me define my contention. That from what can be
extrapolated from scientific facts, there is a probability of us being
here by design thats at least as, or more compelling than us being here
by natural impersonal causes.
Evidence for fine tuning of universe.
1. Strong nuclear force constant
If larger; no hydrogen; nuclei essential for life would be
unstable If smaller; no elements other than hydrogen
2. Weak nuclear force constant
If larger; too much hydrogen converted to helium in big bang,
hence too much heavy element material made by star burning ; no
expulsion of heavy elements from stars
if smaller; too little helium produced from big bang, hence too
little heavy element material made by star burning; no expulsion
of heavy elements from stars
3. Gravitational force constant
if larger; stars would be too hot and would burn up quicky and
unevenly if smaller; stars would remain so cool that nuclear
fusion would never ignite, hence no heavy element production
4. Electromagnetic force constant
if larger; insufficient chemical bonding; elements more massive
than boron would be too unstable for fussion
if smaller insufficient chemical bonding
5. Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force
constant if larger; no stars less than 1.4 solar masses hence
short and uneven stellar burning
if smaller; no stars more than 0.8 solar masses, hence no heavy
element production
6. Ratio of electron to protron mass
if larger; insufficient chemical bonding
if smaller; insufficient chemical bonding
7. Ratio of protron to number of electrons
if larger; electromagnetism would have dominated gravity,
preventing galaxy star and planet formation
if smaller; same result
8. Expansion rate of universe
if larger; no galaxy formation
if smaller; universe would collaspe prior to star formation
9. Entropy level of universe
if larger; no star condensation within the protogalaxies
if smaller; no protogalaxy formation
10. Mass density of universe
if larger; too much deuterium from big bang hence stars burn too
rapidly if smaller; insufficient helium from big bang
11. Velocity of light
if larger; stars would be too luminous
if smaller; stars would not be luminous enough
12. Age of universe
if older; no solar type stars in stable burning phase in the
right part of the galaxy
if younger; solar stars in stable burning phase would not yet
have formed
13. Initial uniformity of radiation
if smoother; stars, star clusters and galaxies would not have
formed if coarser; universe would be mostly black holes and empty
space
14. Fine structure constant( a number used to describe the fine
structure splitting of spectral lines)
if larger; no stars more than 0.7 solar masses
if smaller; no stars less than 1.8 solar masses
15. Average distance between stars
if larger; heavy element density to thin for rocky planets to
form if smaller; planetary orbits would become to destabilized
16. Decay rate of proton
if greater; life would be exterminated by the release of
radiation if smaller; insufficent matter in the universe for life
17. C to O nuclear energy level ratio
if larger; insufficient oxygen
if smaller insufficient carbon
18. Ground state energy level for HE
if larger; insufficient carbon and oxygen
if samller; same result
19. Decay rate of BE
if slower; heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic
explosions in all the stars
if faster; no element production beyond beryllium, hence no life
chemistry possible
20. Mass excess of nuetron over the proton
if greater; neutron decay would leave too few neutrons to form
the heavy elements esential for life
if smaller; proton decay would cause all stars to rapidly
collaspe into nuetron stars or black holes
21. Intial excess of nucleons over antinucleons
if greater; too much radiation for planets to form
if smaller; not enough matter for galaxies or stars to form
22. Polarity of water molecule
if greater; heat of fusion and vaporization would be too great
for life to exist
if smaller; heat of fusion and vaporization would be too small
for life's existance; liquid water would become too inferior a
solvent for life chemistry to proceed; ice would not float,
leading to a runaway freeze-up
23. Supernova eruptions
if too close; radiation would exterminate life on planet
if too far; not enough heavy element ashes to form rocky planets
if too infrequent same result
if too frequent life on planet would be exterminated
if too soon; not enough heavy ashes for rocky planets to form
if too late; life would be exterminated by radiation
24. White dwarf binaries
if too few; insufficient flourine produced for life chemistry to
proceed
if too many; disruption of planetary orbits from stellar density;
life on planet would be exterminated
if too soon; not enough heavy elements made for efficient
fluorine production
if too late; flourine made to late for incorporation into
protoplanet
25. Ratio of mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter
if smaller; galaxies would not have formed
if larger; universe would have collasped before solar-type star
could form
Before I draw any conclusions, let me quote a few scientists
thoughts.
Paul Davies " The laws of physics seem themselves to be a
product of exceedingly ingenious design"
George Greenstein (scientist,author) expressed these thoughts,"
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistantly arises
that some supernatural agency-or rather, Agency-must be involved.
Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have
stumbled upon scientific proof of the existance of a supreme
being? Was it God who so providentially crafted the cosmos for
our benefit?" ( From The Symbiotic Universe)
Why do these men (who are by no means "fundies") say this? How
astronomical do the odds have to be against impersonal nature
to create a habitat so beneficial for us?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 22 Feb 96 08:35:11
EID:5104 20564460
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f027e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312a7d11
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Andrew Masten <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "Thumb-sucking
PS> evolungelic"
AM> None of the physical type, but a philisophical argument.
PS>
KDM> Ye gods, philosophy.
AM> Philosophy, is more rational basis for belief then science, because
AM> science can't get off the runway without philisophical
AM> presuppositions.
PS> Such as?
Here is a list of some philosophical presuppositions of science.
1. The existence of a theory-independent external world
2. The orderly nature of the world
3. The knowability of the external world
4. The existence of truth
5. The laws of logic
6. The reliability of our cognitive and sensory facilities to serve
as truth gatherers and a source of justified beliefs in our intellectual
environment.
7. The adequacy of language to describe the world.
8. The existence of values used in science(e.g. test fairly, report
honestly)
9. The uniformity of nature and induction
10. The existence of numbers
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 23 Feb 96 08:29:45
EID:0331 205743a0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f027f
REPLY: 1:215/130 0014922f
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Andrew Masten <=-
EF> In a message dated 02-14-96 Andrew Masten wrote to Brian Kolacy:
> AM>I hope that gives you some idea. All these attributes come from th
> AM>bible.
>
> BK> As do the ones I list that contradict yours. I could find some m
> BK> but, since you haven't even read your Bible completely, it would
> BK> waste of time.
>
> Brian, its nice to see you read the bible, its a shame you don't kno
> it means.
EF> Hahahahahaha! That's pretty funny. Read Numbers 31 and then come back
EF> and explain why your loving god directed the genocidal slaughter of
EF> about 60,000 to 100,000 captured women, children, and babies. Tell
us
EF> what the children did to deserve such a fate.
EF> Once you have done that, then explain why 16,000 virgin girls were
EF> spared the slaughter and given to Moses armies (gee, I wonder what
the
EF> soldiers did to the young girls. Have any ideas?)
EF> Any rationale you can come up with cannot explain both. If the
EF> midianites were an "evil" people (yeah, just think of all those
EF> terrified "evil" mothers and babes-in-arms waiting their turn to be
EF> hacked to death) then what justifies sparing the virgins for the
EF> sexual pleasure of Moses' armies?
EF> We're waiting.
The Medianites certainly would have done in the Israelites if they had the
chance. If you read the passage Moses was not happy with the army. As for
the survivors, they were kept as slaves and were not just females. The
practice of keeping slaves was common among vanquished people. As the
Israelites were kept for slaves when they were conquered.
> You quoted instances when God was either smitting the enem
> of Israel, or chastising His own people. Have your parents ever corr
> you? Did it mean they didn't love. I let you know a little secret, i
> didn't correct you, it was because they didn't love you.
EF> Have your parents killed any of your siblings in their quest to
EF> "correct" them? Your fatuous, euphemistic attempt to brush off the
EF> vicious cruelty of your god throughout the Bible exposes the
EF> difficulty you have facing reality.
Of course not. God corrects his own people so they will live, not die.
When the Isrealites entered the land God gave them a long list of blessings
and curses if they sought no other gods. Its the people back in that time
that were cruel. They were engaged in all manner of occult practices. And
none of this was God's intention for man to begin with.
EF> What is very troubling, however, is the casual manner in which you
EF> display your moral relativism, aka, situational ethics. You, and many
EF> of your fellow believers, have no intrinsic beliefs in what is good
or
EF> bad but rather believe that WHATEVER your god does or commands done
is
EF> "good" by definition.
No, it is the non-theists who succomb to moral relativism. Without God
man is the final say so on whats right or wrong. If I disagree with your
standard, how would we arbritrate it? But Christ summed up God's entire
law by saying love God with all your heart and might, and love others
as yourself.
EF> If your god orders innocents slaughtered then, to you, it _must_ be
EF> the "moral" thing to do. Indeed, it would be IMMORAL to disobey.
EF> Deny it, if you can.
EF> BTW, that's some "loving" god-parent you have, playing favorites with
EF> his "children." Do you have a "chosen" child like your god had a
EF> "chosen" people? If not why not? That would seem to be the lesson your
EF> god teaches you here.
You are creating the God you don't believe in. God says He isn't willing
that any should perish, but all should come to everlasting life. Jesus
also said He will in no wise cast anyone out. So the invitation to be a
son or daughter of God is open to all. If God wanted to wipe us all out
he wouldn't have sent his Son to be a sin offering on our behalf. Thats
the
good news. In spite of ourselves, He wants us all back. But the reason
most people reject God, is they want, "Do what thou will" to be the whole
of the law.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:06:41
EID:7079 205748c0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0280
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312a7d0c
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Andrew Masten <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "Viability"
PS> Why make the shedding of blood a requirement at all? Is God a
PS> bloodthirsty god?
AM> No Preston. But God's attribute of mercy is not at the expense of
AM> justice. If God arbitrailry forgave sin, that would be unjust.
PS> How do you know? Can you safely judge what God thinks is just or
PS> unjust?
Read Matthew chapter 5 the sermon on the mount. Thats an excellent
starting point.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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PATH: 138/255 316 318 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:10:15
EID:7079 20574940
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0281
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312a7d12
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Andrew Masten <=-
PS> Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "Viability"
KDM> Why? He's omnipotent (yes, it's a big word. Look it up. No, not
in
KDM> the Sesame Street Dictionary, get a real one). Why must blood be
KDM> shed? Or is your god no god?
AM> What justice would there be with God if He forgave sin without a
AM> price. What would you think of a magistrate who just let criminals
AM> go on a whimsy?
PS> What would you think of a person who's trying to dictate what an
PS> omnipotent god can or cannot do?
Could you elaborate alittle?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
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PATH: 138/255 316 318 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Viability
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:12:16
EID:2d2c 20574980
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0282
REPLY: 1:215/130 00149271
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Andrew Masten <=-
EF> In a message dated 02-13-96 Preston Simpson wrote to Andrew Masten:
>
> PS> If he loved us, and he were omnipotent, he could have found a bet
> PS> way to do it than having someone nailed to a cross.
>
> AM> Its consistent throughout the bible. Without the shedding of bloo
> AM> there is no forgiveness for sins.
EF> The question is WHY did your god invent such an inane policy as that?
EF> The only thing consistent is your god's predilection throughout the
EF> Bible for punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.
EF> Do you deny it?
Not at all. Christ was innocent, and died on our behalf. If you want to
believe that, you will recieve a full pardon. Christs mission is
salvation, not condemnation.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1
SEEN-BY: 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 138/255 316 318 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:20:59
EID:9dce 20574a80
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0283
REPLY: 1:157/200 5602117f
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
KDM> ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM> AM> The quote I took was from Superforce. Since Paul Davies is
AM> AM> an atheist and still claims were here by natural causes I
AM> AM> didn't think a quote from him would need to be
AM> AM> peer-reviewed.
AM> KDM> Atheism doesn't give one special status in terms of producing
AM> KDM> evidence for statements, Andrew.
AM>
AM> I've only recieved one response with a quote, no reference to
AM> its source and no consideration to being 'peer reviewed. I think
AM> the terms for producing evidence are a one way street. That this
AM> is a religeous debate echo is a misnomer, its really a Christain
AM> bashing echo.
KDM> That's because (I assume) they weren't making statements of their own,
KDM> but poking holes in yours. There's a difference.
In one sense your right, because it seems like only Christians on this
echo state thier beliefs. But I don't see why the rules of evidence
should be suspended in a counter argument.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:40:26
EID:9dce 20574d00
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0284
REPLY: 1:157/200 56021190
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
KDM> ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM> AM> I never quoted the odds. But here they are according to Francis
AM> AM>Crick, L.M. Murkhin and Carl Sagan. Difficulty of evolving
AM> AM>humans by chance processes alone are 1 in 10-2,000,000,000.
AM>
AM> KDM> How do you get these numbers?
AM>
AM> The three aforementioned scientists collaborated on a book called;
AM> " Extraterrestrail Life" Mitt press 1973. I don't know how they
AM> arrived at that figure, I know that Carl Sagan believes in
AM> evolution.
KDM> That tells me absolutely nothing.
It tells you enough to borrow a copy from the library and look up the
information you want.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:47:01
EID:f56a 20574de0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0285
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892B0E30
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 02-18-96 08:42, Andrew Masten got back to Martin Goldberg
AM> Can you tell me a Designer didn't create this universe? If the
AM> answer is "I can't prove a negative" then why saddle me with the same
AM> dilemma?
DC> That's quite easy, Andy. Not only did you saddle yourself, you
DC> willfully took the bit and handed the reins to your handlers.
No, Dan. This is just another example of you pasting my quote, while
excluding what I was responding to.
DC> Now, either provide the evidence or admit that you don't have any.
Okay, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I am up to the
challenge! Let me define my contention. That from what can be
extrapolated from scientific facts, there is a probability of us being
here by design thats at least as, or more compelling than us being here
by natural impersonal causes.
Evidence for fine tuning of universe.
1. Strong nuclear force constant
If larger; no hydrogen; nuclei essential for life would be
unstable If smaller; no elements other than hydrogen
2. Weak nuclear force constant
If larger; too much hydrogen converted to helium in big bang,
hence too much heavy element material made by star burning ; no
expulsion of heavy elements from stars
if smaller; too little helium produced from big bang, hence too
little heavy element material made by star burning; no expulsion
of heavy elements from stars
3. Gravitational force constant
if larger; stars would be too hot and would burn up quicky and
unevenly if smaller; stars would remain so cool that nuclear
fusion would never ignite, hence no heavy element production
4. Electromagnetic force constant
if larger; insufficient chemical bonding; elements more massive
than boron would be too unstable for fussion
if smaller insufficient chemical bonding
5. Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force
constant if larger; no stars less than 1.4 solar masses hence
short and uneven stellar burning
if smaller; no stars more than 0.8 solar masses, hence no heavy
element production
6. Ratio of electron to protron mass
if larger; insufficient chemical bonding
if smaller; insufficient chemical bonding
7. Ratio of protron to number of electrons
if larger; electromagnetism would have dominated gravity,
preventing galaxy star and planet formation
if smaller; same result
8. Expansion rate of universe
if larger; no galaxy formation
if smaller; universe would collaspe prior to star formation
9. Entropy level of universe
if larger; no star condensation within the protogalaxies
if smaller; no protogalaxy formation
10. Mass density of universe
if larger; too much deuterium from big bang hence stars burn too
rapidly if smaller; insufficient helium from big bang
11. Velocity of light
if larger; stars would be too luminous
if smaller; stars would not be luminous enough
12. Age of universe
if older; no solar type stars in stable burning phase in the
right part of the galaxy
if younger; solar stars in stable burning phase would not yet
have formed
13. Initial uniformity of radiation
if smoother; stars, star clusters and galaxies would not have
formed if coarser; universe would be mostly black holes and empty
space
14. Fine structure constant( a number used to describe the fine
structure splitting of spectral lines)
if larger; no stars more than 0.7 solar masses
if smaller; no stars less than 1.8 solar masses
15. Average distance between stars
if larger; heavy element density to thin for rocky planets to
form if smaller; planetary orbits would become to destabilized
16. Decay rate of proton
if greater; life would be exterminated by the release of
radiation if smaller; insufficent matter in the universe for life
17. C to O nuclear energy level ratio
if larger; insufficient oxygen
if smaller insufficient carbon
18. Ground state energy level for HE
if larger; insufficient carbon and oxygen
if samller; same result
19. Decay rate of BE
if slower; heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic
explosions in all the stars
if faster; no element production beyond beryllium, hence no life
chemistry possible
20. Mass excess of nuetron over the proton
if greater; neutron decay would leave too few neutrons to form
the heavy elements esential for life
if smaller; proton decay would cause all stars to rapidly
collaspe into nuetron stars or black holes
21. Intial excess of nucleons over antinucleons
if greater; too much radiation for planets to form
if smaller; not enough matter for galaxies or stars to form
22. Polarity of water molecule
if greater; heat of fusion and vaporization would be too great
for life to exist
if smaller; heat of fusion and vaporization would be too small
for life's existance; liquid water would become too inferior a
solvent for life chemistry to proceed; ice would not float,
leading to a runaway freeze-up
23. Supernova eruptions
if too close; radiation would exterminate life on planet
if too far; not enough heavy element ashes to form rocky planets
if too infrequent same result
if too frequent life on planet would be exterminated
if too soon; not enough heavy ashes for rocky planets to form
if too late; life would be exterminated by radiation
24. White dwarf binaries
if too few; insufficient flourine produced for life chemistry to
proceed
if too many; disruption of planetary orbits from stellar density;
life on planet would be exterminated
if too soon; not enough heavy elements made for efficient
fluorine production
if too late; flourine made to late for incorporation into
protoplanet
25. Ratio of mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter
if smaller; galaxies would not have formed
if larger; universe would have collasped before solar-type star
could form
Before I draw any conclusions, let me quote a few scientists
thoughts.
Paul Davies " The laws of physics seem themselves to be a
product of exceedingly ingenious design"
George Greenstein (scientist,author) expressed these thoughts,"
As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistantly arises
that some supernatural agency-or rather, Agency-must be involved.
Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have
stumbled upon scientific proof of the existance of a supreme
being? Was it God who so providentially crafted the cosmos for
our benefit?" ( From The Symbiotic Universe)
Why do these men (who are by no means "fundies") say this? How
astronomical do the odds have to be against impersonal nature
to create a habitat so beneficial for us?
If you were before a firing squad of a 100 sharpshooters, and
after the command fire, you discovered you were still alive, would
you; Assume all the rifles misfired? Or believe the sharpshooter
deliberately missed you?
This evidence I've presented is for the universe at large. There
are another 32 parameters that have to be satisfied for a planet
like ours to develop.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: hi
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:51:43
EID:7228 20574e60
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0286
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892B0E31
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 02-18-96 10:23, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
AM> The new testament is a fulfilment of the old testament, not an
AM> annulment.
AM> Christ said to love your neighbor as yourself, and you would be
AM> living by the law and the prophets.
DC> No he didn't. That was ripped off from Hillel, who stated that
DC> before your godling. Try giving credit were credit is due, not
DC> lying to keep your myth going. In fact, Hillel got the concept
DC> from Babylonian tradition.
AM>
AM> Thats a good argument Dan. Its a shame no one was discussing the
AM> originality of Christ's sayings.
DC> Of course they aren't, as he never penned a single one of his
DC> own to begin with. And, none of what he supposed said was
DC> original. His "words" were made up by the gospellers
DC> in an attempt to make their mythos fit the prophecies.
DC> Too bad you never noticed that.
So you think the gospellers got together and made up this outlandish
tale, all for the purpose of being expelled from the synagogue. From
the very people whose book the prophecies claim to fulfil. Then to be
hunted down, persecuted and killed. And in the meanwhile the Pharisee's
and Sadduces were too stupid to simply dig the body up and make a
mockery of the early Christain claims.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 23 Feb 96 10:04:06
EID:eb0c 20575080
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0287
REPLY: 1:157/200 560211e5
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
KDM> ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM>-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> AM> None of the physical type, but a philisophical argument.
AM>
AM> KDM> Ye gods, philosophy.
AM>
AM> Philosophy, is more rational basis for belief then science,
AM> because science can't get off the runway without philisophical
AM> presuppositions.
KDM> Perhaps, but at least science can be applied to reality. Pure
KDM> philosophy can not.
Yes it can.
Every time I sit in a chair, I make a philisophical value judgement, that
the chair will support my weight.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 23 Feb 96 10:18:28
EID:9ff0 20575240
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0288
REPLY: 1:157/200 560211f6
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
KDM> ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM> AM> Its consistent throughout the bible. Without the shedding of
AM> AM> blood there is no forgiveness for sins.
AM>
AM> KDM> Why? He's omnipotent (yes, it's a big word. Look it up. No,
AM> KDM> not in the Sesame Street Dictionary, get a real one). Why must
AM> KDM> blood be shed? Or is your god no god?
AM>
AM> What justice would there be with God if He forgave sin without a
AM> What price. would you think of a magistrate who just let
AM> criminals go on a whimsy?
KDM> I'd think he might be worthy of worship. Look, if I can forgive
KDM> others, why can't he? I don't require people to go kill someone, I
KDM> just forgive them, assuming they are truly repentant.
If I murdered someone, how would the family of the deceased feel if
a judge let me go on the condition I wouldn't murder again? But God
is worthy of worship, because he has forgiven us, just on the basis
of believing he paid the penalty that was due us.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 23 Feb 96 10:33:04
EID:dc0d 20575420
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 312f0289
REPLY: 1:289/80 312C342D
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Eric Hendrix to Ross Catto <=-
RC> wants.By taking any kind of loan out, a Christian is disobeying a
RC> directcommand from god not to.
Thats poor biblical exegesis. The idea was not to borrow money with no
collaterol. If I buy a car on credit, I should put enough down, so if in
dire need, I can sell and get out of debt. Its even more true borrowing
for a house. A house has intrinsic value, while renting does not. Either
way, a payment is due. Its your interpretation of scripture that is incorrect.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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|From: Mark Simmons
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Discipline
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:32:54
EID:7b7c 20587400
MSGID: 1:3807/105 312f2196
PID: T.A.G. 2.7c Standard
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Judith Bandsma <=-
MM> Thank you for those words. I see far too much hatemongering
MM> masquerading as religious indignation. It is so sad to see people who
MM> profess a philosophy of love engage in discussions that engender
MM> hostilities.
Perhaps you are expecting too much too soon from people who profess
religious beliefs in say, Christianity, for example. One would not
expect a new disciple of martial arts, zen buddism, hinduism, or any
other discipline to have mastered all aspects after days, months, or
even a lifetime of study. Why should Christians be any different?
JB> join them - their loyalty oath would exclude most of us. Even
JB> dialog with them is problematic; their views and values render them
MM> Unfortunately, the matter is not totally one sides... fundy pagans
MM> full of hostility, fundy christians full of rage stand at opposition
MM> while neither represent the majority but a extrmemly zealous and vocal
MM> minority.
Your above reply is the only reason I've even bothered to interrupt
your discussion with a few thoughts and a different point of view...
JB> we must become VITAL. We must renew our commitment to be active
JB> participants in a free and constitutional democracy; we must
JB> reclaim our roles and responsibilities as "citizens". For me, each
JB> of the five letters in the word VITAL serves as a reminder for what
JB> I must do to contribute as a citizen: V - Visible; I - Informed; T
JB> - Truthful; A - Accountable and L - Liberal.
MM> Hmmmm can I quote you in a speech I'm making next May 5th? Or in a
MM> newspaper article I must turn in Oct.25th? You have done a wonderful
MM> job on this piece of writing and it would be a wonderful addition.
I think the first four are on the money, but why should a citizen always
be liberal?
Later,
Mark.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
---
ž Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 ž
--- FMail/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Python's Playground/Hayes V.34/318-439-4387 (1:3807/105)
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|From: Mark Simmons
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Scientific limitations
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:32:55
EID:7ce4 20587400
MSGID: 1:3807/105 312f2197
PID: T.A.G. 2.7c Standard
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
DW>> Why are you xtians so bipolar? Just because a thing
DW>> does not include X does not mean it *precludes* X. Are you sure
DW>> you know what preclude *means*? Now answer the question: How does
DW>> science preclude God?
Actually, I've seen you ask on more than one occasion for sensory
evidence implying that if there is no X (evidence) then it precludes
X (God's existence). If you are supposed to be a scientific thinker
then I guess that means scientific minds are bipolar...
AM> Because it doesn't employ any hypothesis that include a creator.
DW> The internal combustion engine doesn't employ any hypothesis that
DW> include nuclear fusion, either. Does this mean that the internal
DW> combustion engine precludes nuclear fusion?
Not a good allegory as both your examples exude sensory evidence.
DW> How does science preclude God?
Because explaining our SENSORY universe with logical laws and hypotheses
is what pure science is all about. God is a spirit and therefore not
detectable by sensory apparatus. Thus, anyone adherring strictly to
science cannot embrace God for the lack of sensory evidence (there is
none to explain). Therefore, within true science the lack of said evidence
precludes the existence of said deity.
BTW, in case the argument centers on what preclude means:
Preclude - to shut off, before, to make impossible, esp. in advance;
shut out; prevent.
If one's basis for validation is science then you have precluded any
option of embracing beliefs not supported with sensory evidence.
Later,
Mark.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
---
ž Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 ž
--- FMail/386 1.0g
* Origin: The Python's Playground/Hayes V.34/318-439-4387 (1:3807/105)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: hi
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:ac46 20588b00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org e537ec2b
AM> AM> The new testament is a fulfilment of the old testament, not
an
AM> AM> annulment. Christ said to love your neighbor as yourself, and
you
AM> AM> would be living by the law and the prophets.
AM> BK> So, do you wear clothing of mixed fibers?
AM> Yes. I don't even think about it.
Is there anything you DO think about?
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Purple Unicorn Dingleberr
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:7ce9 20588b00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 3f4c25a6
MM>MM> noting to do with the subject line. Could it be that hard to shift
MM>MM> the subject header when the conversation drifts? * SPITFIRE v3.51
Le
MM>RJ> Sure, we can give it a try.
MM>Hmmmmm the subject line to this one was at least amusing. Now, the question
MM>comes up..... who is going to remove said dingleberries?
The Klingons that hang around Uranus?
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:af65 20588b00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 6905b5fc
KM>No Fredrick, in the post that you love to quote me on, I never stated
that I
KM>would murder my own son. I said that if God asked me to kill my son,
I would
KM>consider it a sacrifice, but I never stated that I would make that sacrifice,
KM>did I? Huh? Excuse me? I can't hear you Fred, or perhaps to prove me
wrong,
KM>you'de like to post the message where I said I WOULD murder or sacrifice
my
KM>son?
Ah. You're not sure you would obey God. I see.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:af9c 20588b00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org aeb42493
KM> FR> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
KM>Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
He is tempting YOU, moron.
But then, you've already admitted you may not obey God.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Igno
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:3aa5 20588b00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 4576fd80
KM> FR> You concocted your deity constructs to justify your actions and
the
KM> FR> activities of your fellow death cultists.
KM>I didn't write the scriptures.....
Let alone read them....
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it eith
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:0083 20588b00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 3f094d2d
KM>What mythologies? I don't read mythologies, that must be the problem,
you've
KM>been reading the wrong book. You don't even know what a Christian is,
how
KM>could you recognize a false one?
KM> FR> Either drink up or admit you're a fraud.
KM>Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.....
How could a perfect deity be tempted?
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:2925 20588b00
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 236c280f
KM> KD> If he had fulfilled all their prophecies, why weren't they all
KM> KD> convinced?
KM>Wasn't a matter of being convinced. Even Pilot could not find anything
wrong
KM>with what Christ said or did. That is why he wrote what he did above
Christ o
"Pilot"???????????????
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Ann Nunn
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: End Times!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 01:13:00
EID:cae2 205909a0
MSGID: 1:396/93.0 892EA7D0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 93-0891
from Larry Jansen...
LJ>I hope you realize that the international bankers are behind us being
LJ>in Bosnia. Iraq and Iran are next on their agenda. "Too bad" that
LJ>our "children" will have to die, so that they can make more money, and
LJ>enslave the world.
LJ>All hail! Satan and his New World Order are upon us -- ez. 38, 39, 40;
LJ>rv. 20: 7-15.
LJ>---
LJ> * Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
Excuse me, but would you happen to know the address of the Buchanan for
President campaign fund?
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * INRI: Idiots Need Reassuring Ideologies
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Fishing Hole BBS (1:396/93.0)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:24:48
EID:2236 20579b00
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 313061ef
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 312c9310
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
DW> 17 Feb 96 11:25, Andrew Masten wrote to David Worrell:
AM> Then I must be standing head and shoulders above my detractors who
AM> rarely if ever rely on evidence for thier myoptic views.
DW> I see you're confused, Andy - that really doesn't surprise me. You
DW> have yet to provide anything beyond supposition and guesses. Try
DW> again.
No, David. Supposition and guesses were the type of rhetoric you employed
in refutation to my arguments. Then you justify it by claiming that you
don't need empirical evidence in refutation of my evidence.
AM> Pla-gar-rize To steal and use (the ideas or writings of another)
as
AM> one's own. -The American Heritage Dictionary-
DW> Exactly. You did not quote the source with the information. You
DW> plagiarized. You're going to hell, son.
Show me where I claimed that evidence for my own? Besides I gave you the
source in this reply, but you deleted it. And I'm not going to hell David.
I'm a blood bought son of God. My name is written in the book of life.
AM> Of course you have yet to cite a single source in rebuffing the
AM> evidence I presented.
DW>> I'm still waiting for you to tell me just how science
DW>> precludes God.
AM> And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what your credentials are,
DW> Irrelevant.
AM> what degree's you have and what was your master thesis??
DW> Also irrelevant. What does my educational status have to do with the
DW> above question? Answer it.
Because you act as if you had credentials to evaluate scientific claims.
When
in reality, your just a legend in your own mind.
DW> You seem to be trying valiantly to do it with your mental construct
of
DW> a deity.
DW>> nitrogen on Jupiter, a gaseous planet. Yet you claim that Jupiter
DW>> has no carbon and nitrogen,
AM> Like the Sun and primeval nebula, Jupiter is primarily composed
AM> of hydrogen and helium. Jupiters atmosphere also contains
AM> TRACE amounts of water, ammonia, methane and other organic
AM> (carbon) compounds.
AM> Source Groliers Encyclopedia.
DW> Right. Yet you claimed that Jupiter had no carbon and nitrogen.
DW> Regardless, Jupiter is a *big* planet, with a diameter of 88,700 miles
DW> at the equator. "Trace" amounts of carbon, for Jupiter, would be a
DW> mass of carbon equivalent to (or greater than) the Earth's mass.
DW> That's a lot of carbon, dipshit.
DW> Do try to understand these things next time, before embarassing
DW> yourself again, ok?
I was rash in claiming there is no carbon on Jupiter. However your claim
that there's plenty is unsubstatiated. In any event, I am not aware of any
scientists claiming, or even proposing that there is or was life forming
on Jupiter. Trace elements of carbon notwithstanding.
DW> Consider that you have yet to produce any scientific data, I need no
DW> credentials.
No, I produced a lengthy list of scientific data. None of which you refuted
by producing your own evidence. Just your usual appeals to unprovable
postulates.
DW>>> I see you failed to answer his question. Why must this designer
DW>>> you speak of be Jehovah?
AM>> If you don't believe we are created, what difference does it
AM>> make? If you do, you can compare religions for yourself.
DW> Why don't you answer the question instead of doing the fundy shuffle?
Haa! Your the biotic soup a drinkin, Origin of Species thumpin, time and
chance and mutagen believin, evolungelical fundamentalist. You provide
the empirical scientific evidence that atoms self assembled into a
universe, then utimately self assembled into humans. No, you don't have
any. Thats why your theories amount to nothing more than articles of faith.
No, you are the fundy, because you blindly believe, in spite of evidence
to the contrary. And you worship and bowdown before the creation as if
it created itself.
DW> Show the connection between this Designer you speak of and Jehovah.
DW> Could it be that you are unable to do so, and simply don't have the
DW> balls to admit it?
If, you are willing to concede that my belief in a Designer is at least
or more compelling than a naturalistic explanation, then I will procede
with why I think Jehovah is the best candidate.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 24 Feb 96 20:56:27
EID:9eac 2058a700
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3130779b
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 96a52ddd
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Dan and Marilyn were killing time yakking about holysmoke.faq.ah:
DC> BTW, nice to see I'm not alone in this Echo in this corner of
DC> the country. Was getting lonely here... }:-)
MB> Am I no longer deemed to be in your corner?
DC> Do I detect a pout?
MB> Probably. How does it look? Okay? I just got it yesterday,
MB> and I'm trying it out for the first time. Is it my color?
I think it looks great - but is that the deluxe model (the one that comes
with
the built-in subtle lip-quiver)? I hear that one comes with a guarantee!
;)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Do I detect a note of panic in your voice?" - Quark
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:29:05
EID:d029 205933a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3130779c
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdbe
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Michael and Mark were killing time yakking about Jim Staal:
MH> ... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a weakened
MS> body, Pneumonia.
I'm sorry to hear that, Mark. Please pass on my condolences to Jim -- and
to
you as well.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Buchanan Bashing!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 13:34:18
EID:272e 20596c40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8000b
REPLY: 1:123/319 56ccea64
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Mark Craig wrote in a message to All:
MC> Did you hear that "kike" Koppel trying to crucify Pat on Nightline?
Naw. You are mistaken. Ted clearly said that he only intends to *nail*
Pat on some issues. Ooops! You might be right!
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Who cares?
|Date: 25 Feb 96 13:22:12
EID:e2c4 20596ac0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80006
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org fdf73a85
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Katherine Wintersnight wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
LW> Would you like to make a $50.00 donation to the ministry so I
LW> can register this copy
SR>Another jeezoid begging for money so his gawds won't condemn him for
SR> eternity.
SR>But the palty $50 fee is peanuts compared to the lifetime of
SR>savings he'll be
SR>dropping into his church-master's coffers.
KW> Steve, what he's saying is 'Give it to me, or I will steal it in
KW> the name of Jesus'.
Oh! So now he want to steal his myth-gawd's name, as well? More power
to him.
:)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 25 Feb 96 13:34:49
EID:0ff1 20596c40
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8000d
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdb9
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
MS> ......Enough to make it stronger than the "I hate blacks and
MS> gays" group you belong to....besides, the next time you want to
MS> talk to Jim address the mail to _him_! If you can't comprehend
MS> the fact that Jim is not here no more and that Mark Staal and
MS> Lump are the same
Can you switch back to your Jim Staal persona? You sounded a lot more intelligent
when you played his character on this echo.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Get Saved!
|Date: 25 Feb 96 13:28:12
EID:721a 20596b80
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80008
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca8c
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
John Prewett wrote in a message to Brian Shreve:
BS> Here are my beliefs:
JP> I don't believe you are competent to judge the
JP> creator of all that is.
Since there is no such Being...Brian is just as competent to judge as you
are.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Daily Bitch
|Date: 25 Feb 96 13:29:16
EID:bd8d 20596ba0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80009
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
> Some years ago as I got laid in a hospital bed, I overheard two
> women moaning in a waiting room outside my door. Evidently the
> husband of one of them was working over both at the same time. She had
been
> under extreme weight from his body and was greatly concerned about his
> technique. She panted to her friend, "you know, when you're as
> worried as I am, you just have to... CHOMP IT!!" "Yeeeooowwwwwwww!!!!!"
> WHEN FEAR KNOCKS AT YOUR DOOR,
> LET FAITH FUCK IT.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: WinCrap 95
|Date: 25 Feb 96 14:45:15
EID:e79f 205975a0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80010
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 1b89af97
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
FR> Just try creating a desktop folder, installing LAN software, and
FR> just _driving_ the fucking thing. Eventually I'm going to have to
FR> learn to use the crap but I'm not going to like it.
Use Win-NT instead. That's where most of us are eventually going with it.
:)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 25 Feb 96 14:35:39
EID:571e 20597460
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8000f
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3129bac1
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Don Martin wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
SR> I installed it the second day 95 Final was released on CD-ROM...
DM> If it is so bloody good, why are you so ANGRY to people on
DM> BBSs?
Some are still afraid to run it and come up with the lamest excuses in order
not to.
DM> Poor Christian Miller left in tears.
His daddy must work for Apple.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Waco Web Site
|Date: 25 Feb 96 13:53:48
EID:ce7b 20596ea0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 130bd372
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: WACO) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from Terry Liberty-Parker (1:382/804.0) to All.
Original dated: Feb 25 '96, 13:45
Hello All!
For those of you who have access to the InterNet World Wide Web:
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~cwalker/waco/waco.html
A Web site about the American tragedy of Waco.
ENJOY,
Terry
___ timEd 1.00+
- Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 20 Feb 96 10:23:00
EID:be07 205452e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting John Brawley <=-
JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence
for gods?
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Fecus
|Date: 22 Feb 96 11:56:00
EID:9898 20565f00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals;
GM> for You[sic] were slain, and have redeemed us to God[sic]
GM> by Your[sic] blood. -Revelation 5:9
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in
the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths
outgrabe.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: HECTOR PLASMIC
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:14:00
EID:9c0c 205761c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Michael Hardy <=-
>MH> Don't ask me for evidence of this; it is an article of
>MH> faith. You either believe it or you don't.
Therefore, all criticism, discussion, and discourse are
utterly, irrevocably meaningless. One is left wondering,
why is Michael here in HOLYSMOKE then? If he believes his
convictions about his gods are merely a matter of faith,
then there's nothing left for him to say on the matter.
Faith knows nothing of reason.
HP> You've been on a roll, haven't you, Mikey? If we don't
HP> believe it (and even you admit there's no _reason_ to
HP> believe it), it's rather obvious that we're also not
HP> going to buy any conclusions you base on that little
HP> unevidenced "article of faith," isn't it? You're obviously
HP> wasting your time arguing this as the basis for anything
HP> with anyone who doesn't share your unevidenced belief,
HP> right?
I wonder if he has realized that he has admited to everyone
here that there is utterly no reason to listen to anything
he has to say.
... "One must let faith supercede reason" -- Glen Zilly
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: BRAD JACKSON
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:18:00
EID:e85d 20576240
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> You ask for independent evidence, what could be better then
BJ> God[sic]'s word?
My word is better than any words from the gods (after all, all
of the gods yet posited are self-serving assholes at times).
However, no god has ever said or written anything, so the issue
is mote.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: Homosexual Christians
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:28:00
EID:29ec 20576380
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to David Rice <=-
DR> How is killing 42 children a "worthy judgement" for teasing
DR> a crazed bald person? You appear to have a freaky sense of
DR> what is just.
JH> Ah... but you could put it on the evening TeeVee News as
JH> an item about a "Senior Citizen being terrorized by 42
JH> Juvenile Gang Members" and at least half the population
JH> (including a number of folks here on the echo) would be
JH> on their feet cheering for the bears.
Oh yeah. You're right--- I never thought of that.
JH> All of this senseless bloodshed could have been avoided
JH> by having a dress code.
/Laughing!/ I can hear Fredric now: "And then the fucking
A.C.L.U. got the dress code banned, so now there's blood
running in the streets!"
... "And the inspiration for the vagina was...?" -- Steve Q
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: Scientology
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:31:00
EID:8a40 205763e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Fredric Rice <=-
>>>JJH> CUTS! CUTS! CUTS! ALWAYS WITH THE FUCKING CUTS!
>>>JJH> Do you know where I can get these documents in their
>>>JJH> complete and unsanitized form?
The above was originally to me, but I have been off FidoNet
for about two weeks.
>FR> Request F102-890.ZIP or magic name FILES from my system.
>FR> There are over 800 files in my $cientology archives. You
>FR> could GREP for "ANDRE" or "affidavit."
JH> Call me a sucker for punishment, but I'll see what you
JH> have added. The last batch of files (actually internet
JH> messages saved individually as files) was rather
JH> disappointing. You'd sanitized them pretty heavily.
The sanitized versons are for legal reasons.
Even a very brief three-sentence outline of OTIII being
posted on the Internet has been subject to harassing lawsuits
from the cult.
... Cthulhu/Limbaugh 1996: Why settle for the LESSER evil?
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:35:00
EID:b4e7 20576460
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Rob Burcham <=-
>RB> How far would you go in trimming government support?
Wouldn't that depend on WHICH supports?!?!?!?
JH> How about getting the Navy out of Missouri?
Or get the nogoddamned US Navy, Army, Air Force, Marines, SS,
and CIA out of OTHER NATIONS since they don't belong there.
Think of the billions of dollars that would be saved if Bush
had not had his Oil War!
JH> The problem with Republicans is they have NEVER seen a
JH> military spending program they didn't like.
It's odd how they tell "Less government!" when it's for the
necessities of life (welfare, aid to dependant children,
environmental protections), but they enact "Big government"
with their NAFTA and "Internet Decency[sic] Act" bullshit.
... Bosnian Bumpersticker: Religion Stopped 25,000 Beating Hearts!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KENNETH MCABEE
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:43:00
EID:f2d9 20576560
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to David Rice <=-
>>>FR> That was very wise of you -- provided you offer the
>>>FR> provisal that _no_ deities can be found with scientific
>>>FR> method, not just your deity constructs.
>>KM>> Understand, I only recognize ONE God[sic].
>DR> You are therefore merely one god short of being atheist.
>DR> What's one more out of hundreds of thousands?
KM> There are no other gods.
What a stupid thing to say. Do you have any evidence that the
gods do not exist?
KM> There is only One[sic] True[sic] God[sic], [....]
That's exactly what I said: you are very nearly atheist
because there are many hundreds of thousands of gods you
lack belief in. You are merely one or two gods away from
total atheism.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: RYAN SHAW
|Sub: The Unofficial Holysmoke
|Date: 23 Feb 96 12:46:00
EID:a608 205765c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to All <=-
RS> Please send in your entries!
RS> The Unofficial Holysmoke Pick Yer Poison List
RS>
RS> The Late J.J. Hitt Death Spell Test Site Sugar-laden teeth
RS> Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes' Whit
RS> Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
RS> Steve Quarrella Atheist Creemore Ale or an
RS> John Prewett Sister Lover/Bitch the blood of Chris
David Rice Wiccan Cheery Juice
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Fecus
|Date: 23 Feb 96 13:05:00
EID:9898 205768a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> Why are you cast down, O my soul?...Hope in God[sic], for
GM> I shall yet praise Him[sic]. -Psalm 42:5
He took his vorpal sword in hand: / Long time the manxome foe
he sought -- / So rested he by the Tumtum tree, / And stood
awhile in thought / And, as in uffish thought he stood,
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ERIC HENDRIX
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:11:00
EID:d225 20578960
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Eric Hendrix to All <=-
EH> I know I'm going to get slammed right and left for this
EH> one, so let me say this right off. I feel there is no
EH> need for name-calling, blasphemous (to Christianity)
EH> replies.
Does that mean you don't give a shit about blasphemy towards
other gods except the various Christian gods?
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excreatment
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:14:00
EID:f398 205789c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> Forever, O[sic] Lord[sic], Your[sic] Word[sic] is settled
GM> in heaven. -Psalm 119:89
And, as in uffish thought he stood, / The Jabberwock, with
eyes of flame, / Came wiffling through the tulgey wood, / And
burbled as it came! / One, two! One, two! And through and
through / The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! / He left it
dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back.
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: RODNEY GREEN
|Sub: Religion Debate?
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:21:00
EID:68ba 20578aa0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Rodney Green to All <=-
RG> Why debate about religion when we could talk about Jesus?
Why debate about milk products when we could talk about cheddar
cheese?
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:54:00
EID:354c 20578ec0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting John Prewett to David Rice <=-
>DR> Howsodamnever, Hitler was a Christian because he said
>DR> he was--- there is no other test for who is and is not
>DR> a Christian.
JP> Rendering the label meaningless. [you are admitting that
JP> the label has no connection to what the label INSINUATES]
JP> As the label "doctor" would become meaningless if everyone
JP> were a real "doctor" just because they call themself a
JP> "doctor."
As usual, you argue out of ignorance.
There are several tests for doctorhood: one need not (nor
should one) merely take a person's word on the issue of
if one is a doctor or not. There are licencing boards (as
just one test) that keep track of such things.
However, there are no tests for determining who is and who
is not a Christian, other than asking a person.
Therefore, you're full of shit. Please see the doctor for
an enema.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excretement
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:02:00
EID:3566 20579040
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> If you love Me[sic], keep my commandments. -John 14:15
He left it dead, and with its head / He went galumphing back.
/ "And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? / Come to my arms, my
beamish boy! / O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!" / He
chortled in his joy.
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excreatment
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:03:00
EID:f398 20579060
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated
GM> his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it. -Ephesians 5:28-29
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves / Did gyre and gimble in
the wabe: / All mimsy were the borogoves, / And the mome
raths outgrabe.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: STYX ALLUM
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:07:00
EID:161d 205790e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to Scot Bear <=-
>>
>> PAT BUCHANAN
SA> It would please me immensely to see him drop dead of "natural
SA> causes". That dickweed is dangerous, and does not belong in
SA> the republican party (IMO).
No sane, democracy-minded citizen belongs in the Republican party.
... "Let them eat cake." M. Antoinette "Let them eat shit." N. Gingrich
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excretement
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:34:00
EID:3566 20579440
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness'
GM> sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. -Matthew 5:10
"I joined a white power group and it worked wonders for me. I
got my self esteem back, by learning about my heritage and
culture. It turns out I didn't have to be lonely!! I just had
to be with my own kind, the people who understood me and
where I was coming from. Thank God for white power!!!!"
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excretement
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:35:00
EID:3566 20579460
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> You shall be perfect, just as your Father[sic] in heaven
GM> is perfect. -Matthew 5:48
I want to talk about the evils of women, the things they are
doing and why we are a mess as a society. Women are taking
lots of good jobs from the man, yet they fail at most things
they do, have you noticed? There is no longer a Boys Club Of
Boston, its now Boys & Girls club, you see they couldn't keep
thier own club running so they took over ours. How about the
YMCA? I see women there all the time, try going to a YWCA, if
they don't call the police they will chase you out themselves
with lesbians, I know because I went and tried to walk in.
The homlife of Americans is no good anymore because women
neglect thier children and husbands, seldom at home and f*ing
sticking thier noses into where it shouldn't be. We are
failing as a society because women are turning thier backs on
GOD, stepping out of the role they were designed for.. --
04-21-95 Brice Wellington
... Bosnian Bumpersticker: Religion Stopped 25,000 Beating Hearts!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excretement
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:32:00
EID:3566 20579c00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of
GM> our[sic] Lord[sic] Jesus Christ. -Galatians 6:14
HOWARD COSELL: It may very well have been one of the most
astonishing events to grace the annals of history. An
historic, unprecedentedavian bi-ped with the temerity to
attempt such a Herculean achievement formerly relegated to
Homo-Sapien pedestrians, is truly a remarkable occurence.
... "Millions murdered by Christians are unable to call it a death cult"FR
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excretement
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:33:00
EID:3566 20579c20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> Through wisdom a house is built, and by understanding it is
GM> established. -Proverbs 24:3
JACQUES DERRIDA: Any number of contending discourses may be
discovered within the act of the chicken crossing the road,
and each interpretation is equally valid as the authorial
intent can never bediscerned, because structuralism is DEAD,
DAMMIT, DEAD!
... "Let them eat cake." M. Antoinette "Let them eat shit." N. Gingrich
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excretement
|Date: 23 Feb 96 20:45:00
EID:3566 2057a5a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. -Romans 12:9
10. Leaf through "National Geographic" and draw underwear on
the natives.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE MOOTH
|Sub: Our Daily Excretement
|Date: 23 Feb 96 20:46:00
EID:3566 2057a5c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Mooth to All <=-
GM> They saw the boldness of Peter and John.....And they realized
GM> that they had been with Jesus. -Acts 4:13
1. Jam miniature marshmallows up your nose and sneeze them
out. See how many you can do at a time.
... Bosnian Bumpersticker: Religion Stopped 25,000 Beating Hearts!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: One Staal
|Date: 25 Feb 96 20:02:16
EID:f84d 2059a040
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3130c07c
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 1b89af88
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Saturni dies February 24 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Rob Burcham:
BK>> Another good point. How many days of the week are named after
BK>> *Christian* gods?:)
rb>> April Fool's Day?
FR> Quote material!
Er, "Son Day" Remember "Bread and Circuses?"
[Disclaimer for the Dim: Yes, I know that "Sunday" is not named for "Jesus."]
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Leon Askin Fan Club - 214/412-8457 (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 25 Feb 96 20:07:04
EID:7576 2059a0e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3130c19a
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 1b89af9e
PID: GED3 2.5 261LM3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Saturni dies February 24 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad George Mooth:
FR> HATRED OF WIFE IS ENOUGH
FR> Read: Matt. 19:29.
FR> ... Married life presupposes the power of the
FR> husband over the wife and children, and subjection
FR> and obediance of the wife to the husband. - Pope
FR> Pius XI, _Casti Connubii_
That's the best you can do? You can't come up with any more up-to-date
funnies from Paul VI (Humanae Vitae) or John Paul II? :-/
--- GoldED 2.50+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Leon Askin Fan Club - 214/412-8457 (1:124/9005)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal == True Fuck
|Date: 21 Feb 96 01:12:15
EID:746a 20550980
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312e0cb5
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a2b
FR> ~*~ I'd rather have a free mind than be saved. - Robert Jackson
rj> 'Bout damn time. My '96 HS resolutions are now fulfilled:
rj> made into the FAQ (albeit mangledly), and your quotefile.
rj> Now I have to set some higher goals...
FR>
FR> I can't imagine a higher goal. }:-} Oh: Other than to educate deity
FR> religion out of the populace.
That's not a goal...that's a quagmire.
... * HIPPOTHANATOMASTIGOPHORIA! NETWORK: Beating dead horses for Jayzus!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Poofter of Staal
|Date: 21 Feb 96 01:13:36
EID:18cc 205509a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312e0cb6
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a2c
GK> Dear Frederick, Have you considered the second law of thermodynamics?
FR> I haven't seen a fundy try to use thermodynamics in about two or three
FR> months. I thought these lunatics _finally_ might have learned
FR> something. (But then I don't read every message.) }:-}
rj> Yeah, but everytime I try to explain where they went wrong
rj> (actually, where they went clueless), they never seem to
rj> have much of a reply. Why is that?
FR>
FR> I doubt if any of them actually understand what thermodynamics is.
I
FR> suspect that after they have their beliefs debunked, they complain to
FR> one of their masters (priests, 'bishops,' popes, ehat have you) and
FR> ask for help which they never recieve.
The Conversation at the Pastor's (a short subject screenplay):
"Uh, Pastor...this guy on that machine with the television at-
tached to it said this stuff about therm...thermanamics where
something like life which is really all complex and all...that
it could happen even in a Universe that's s'posed to be falling
apart. I dunno what he was talking about, but I think it kind
of made some sense. Did it?"
"No no, My Little Flockster. That evil science of Satan's
is nothing more than clever lies--so clever, in fact, that they
perfectly align with everything your senses reveal, *that's*
just how clever those lies are!"
"Wow! I never realized it!"
"Yes, all true. But you can rest assured. All you have to do
is limit your reading to just this book which is full of stories
that are about things that happened thousands of years ago. If
you read anything else besides, you are only reading lies. It's
just that simple."
"Gee, my great master! I'm so glad you were able to tell
me that I was being deceived by lies that look exactly like the
truth."
"Bless you, brave soldier. Now don't ever let it happen
again or I'll turn everyone in the church against you."
THE END
(This shameless piece of B-grade propaganda was brought to you
by Republic Pictures (c)1959, All Rights Reserved)
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Purple Unicorn Dingleberries
|Date: 22 Feb 96 10:49:51
EID:37c9 20565620
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312e0cb7
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 312a9254
MM>> absolutely noting to do with the subject line. Could it be that
MM>> hard to shift the subject header when the conversation drifts? *
RJ> Sure, we can give it a try.
DW> You know, of course, that MM is going to completely miss the point...
Like some of my posts, they're only for a few people to get.
And then, there are the ones I write for just about only me
to get. Y'all might sit there scratching your heads, but I'm
busting a gut laughing over here.
... So subtle it's not even *funny*!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 22 Feb 96 11:06:07
EID:0d54 205658c0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312e0cb9
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312bc213
RJ> No, the Sultan is still the richest--with something like
RJ> $24B. I think there are at least 4 or 5 people in the world
RJ> richer than Gates, but he's definitely #1 in the US.
PS> Do you think I could take my IOU for $US1.8 billion to one of those
PS> guys?
Gates, I dunno. He too bastardly a ballbreaker businessman
even in relation to fundies--who are notorious for that
sort of thing. The Sultan...well, see how willing he is to
believe in Allah, and that Arab cultural lack of real property
rights.
RJ> I heard he's made plans to buy the Bettman Archive, which
RJ> would give him the rights to computerize photos of the whole
RJ> collection.
PS> Okay, I admit my ignorance: *what* is the Bettman Archive?
I'm sure someone here could give you better info than me,
but if you check under the photos in just about any art
history textbook, you'll probably find "Courtesy Bettman
Archive" printed in small type. It's a collection of art,
old manuscripts, etc--I think the asking price was something
like $3B.
... "Dear Diary: My teen angst has a body count."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 23 Feb 96 13:05:26
EID:ec26 205768a0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 312e0cbc
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892A0E25
-> On 02-17-96 20:33, Dawn Kleuser got back to All
DK> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like
DC> Isn't it a liitle early? Pre-season practice hasn't even started
DC> yet.
ROFL!!
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Glorp!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:02:01
EID:4e31 20566040
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628aa884
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca15
JP> I think the nation would be better off without the current
JP> welfare system. I think the nation would be better off without
JP> stigmatizing me as "nuts.'
I love this.
All of a sudden the line of "personal responsibility" rhetoric
dried up. Instantaneously.
You'll whine and bitch endlessly about how others should be
responsible. But when one of your shortcomings is pointed out,
it's NOT YOUR FAULT. It was something that was done to you by
sinister exterior forces. You're not responsible.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: FOF update
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:11:01
EID:3a7e 20566160
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628ac2d1
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca1f
JH>> Do you really think that throwing environmental concerns
JH>> to the wind and kissing the ass of Big Business
[your elipsis omitted]
JH>> will give you a higher standard of living? Take a look at
JH>> Louisiana. Or New Jersey.
JP> I take it you get your electricity from a homemade
JP> generator propelled by the creek that runs by your tent ?
A nice evasion, John. (But one that doesn't wash. I pollute a lot
less than even the 'earth worshiping' pagans.)
However, it's still an evasion. You think that relaxing
environmental regulations will result in a higher standard of
living for people living in the effected areas.
Again I say: TAKE A LOOK AT LOUISIANA. It's been tried.
You don't get a higher standard of living. You get screwed.
Consumers don't get lower prices, stockholders take all the
savings. We're not talking about a theory here, it's something
that has actually been tried. It failed. Horribly.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Purple Unicorn Dingleberries
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:26:16
EID:8875 20566340
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628ad62f
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 312a9254
MM>>> Hi, I'm new here and trying to find a place to fit in. I
MM>>> browse the echo for subjects of interest, then find that
MM>>> the post has absolutely noting to do with the subject
MM>>> line. Could it be that hard to shift the subject header
MM>>> when the conversation drifts? * SPITFIRE v3.51 Le
RJ>> Sure, we can give it a try.
DW> You know, of course, that MM is going to completely miss
DW> the point...
Yet more evidence that Neo-Paganism is not a religion with a
Zero Tolerance of Dipshits.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 22 Feb 96 17:59:18
EID:889d 20568f60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628de107
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 1a124fd4
>> Date : 05/08/95
>> GRAMM COURTS RELIGIOUS SUPPORT
SA> See what I mean about concealing it?
He concealed it in front of a crowd of 8000 people.
SA> We've got Buchanan to worry about.
You've got Buchanan to worry about. I'm giggling my ass off.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Religious Experience
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:02:57
EID:c025 20569040
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628df47e
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 312bc219
PS> In a word, yes, if he said such a thing.
Rush on health care in the U.S.: "Ask anyone you know from a foreign
country... which country is the envy of the world when it comes to
health care." (Told You So, page 153)
JH>> We don't need yer kind in our country.
PS> Yeah, send those thinking people where they belong!
We doan need your lip in this country neither.
Just shut up and git yer butt on the boat back to Roosher.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:12:08
EID:1eac 20569180
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628e0349
REPLY: 1:280/9 1a978df1
JH>> You probably won't get this message until after I resurrect.
JH>> FidoNet is EVEN SLOWER on this side. (But on the plus side, I
JH>> now know where all the missing mail goes to.)
RB> Did you experience the white light and the tunnel?
No.... the afterlife looks a lot like the set of The Honeymooners.
I spent most of my time playing cards with Ambrose Bierce and Leon
Trotsky. (Where ever it is, it must be close to Mexico City.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:17:35
EID:04fe 20569220
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628e0aca
MH>> It's a lie. One of his advisors once made a speech to a
MH>> gun-owners group, and a couple of white supremacists were
MH>> in the audience.
JB> Sorry, Mike, this is where you are wrong. Leo, knowing
JB> nothing about the discussion here, brought me home the
JB> Jacksonville newspaper. The woman who was heading the
JB> Florida campaign for Buchanan is the chair person for for
JB> the NAAWP, a group that is mainly peopled with KKK'ers who
JB> want to look a bit more reasonable.
The NAAWP was founded by yet another great Republican: David Duke.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: information
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:24:27
EID:4a36 20569300
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628e1daf
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12b0ca27
JP> A well done movie of 15 year olds enjoying sexual activity
JP> will incline 15 year old watchers to engage in sex
JP> activity.
JP> Only idiots can't make that "link."
I don't know about your species, but 15 year old humans come
pre-inclined. No coaching or encouragement required.
If you were human, you'd already know this.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Jason Ballard
|Sub: Paganistic Followers
|Date: 22 Feb 96 18:32:09
EID:cfc5 20569400
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 628e2fe1
JB> The gaian theory, Wotan and Ulik. Those were my gods, and they
JB> seek vengeance.
The cycle continues...
JB> knowledge or technology, and people say these things happen
JB> for a reason, now mother nature will get revenge with her
JB> storms and the gaian theory and prophecy of the Arian race
JB> will come true, when nature calls we all shall drown.
The call of nature?
Aryan race?
Drown?
We're going to drown in the piss of White Power assholes?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 20 Feb 96 20:28:00
EID:47f3 2054a380
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 199466c6
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc6
PID: FM 2.02
> DR> "If the older generation cannot get accustomed to us, we shall take
> DR> their children away from them and rear them as needful for the
> DR> Fatherland." -- Hitler, June 18, 1933
> DR> "When an opponent declares, 'I will not come over to your side,'
> DR> I calmly say, 'Your child belongs to us already ... What are you?
> DR> You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new
camp.
> DR> In a short time they will know nothing but the new community."
> DR>-- Hitler, Nov. 6, 1933
> DR> To all Christians: he's one of yours.
> Nah, Hitler was one of Satan's. Like you presently are.
Please feel free at any time to commence supplying us with direct evidence
for the existence of "Satan" outside of your imagination (and those of other
believers).
Until you do so, it remains established that "Satan" does not exist.
> YOUR [the common] labeling is irrelevant.
False. Hitler was a confessing Jesus believer his entire life. Try again.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Knock, Knock!! Who's there? Cthul! (1:128/203.666)
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Subject Headers
|Date: 20 Feb 96 20:51:01
EID:52ea 2054a660
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1994aa35
REPLY: 1:352/266 31267CFF
PID: FM 2.02
> Hi, I'm new here and trying to find a place to fit in. I browse the echo
> for subjects of interest, then find that the post has absolutely noting
> to do with the subject line. Could it be that hard to shift the
> subject header when the conversation drifts?
You are attempting to change this Echo to fit your own tastes. NOT an advisable
thing to try, ESPECIALLY as a "newbie".
Those choosing to deal with HolySmoke have two, and only two, choices. Either:
(a) Accept the Echo as it is; or
(b) Get the fuck out, NOW.
Please note that I mean no offense here; I'm just warning you of what you
are up against. By nature, the Echo tends to resist such attempts at compartmentalized
order. And that is as it should be; it wouldn't be HolySmoke otherwise.
:-)
In fact, the closer thread particpants are ALREADY keeping their threads
related to their subject lines, the more likely such threads are to be ones
you want to be in.
It's just part of finding your way around here. Soon, it'll be second nature.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Knock, Knock!! Who's there? Cthul! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: questions
|Date: 20 Feb 96 21:13:02
EID:624d 2054a9a0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1994aa36
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 126a1cc0
PID: FM 2.02
> [What make you believe Mohammed was prophet from the Supreme God
?]
What made YOU believe IN a "Supreme God", John??
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Knock, Knock!! Who's there? Cthul! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 20 Feb 96 21:21:03
EID:9b0c 2054aaa0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1994aa37
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 623b5b86
PID: FM 2.02
> KR>> The Bible doesn't even get pi right - I doubt it has
> KR>> information on how to run Win95.
> DW> Sure it does... doesn't the Bible mention praying a lot? :)
> PSALMS 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble
> [which I suffer] of them that hate me, thou that liftest me
> up from the Gates of death:
So it isn't Microsoft which will acquire the Catholic Church, but the other
way around:
"And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build
my Church; and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." (MATTHEW
16:18)
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: Knock, Knock!! Who's there? Cthul! (1:128/203.666)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: double standard alert
|Date: 23 Feb 96 00:40:04
EID:730e 20570500
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1b008136
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892644F9
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Fredric Rice <=-
> SA> (As an aside, I'd laugh like a hyaena if it were found Swaggart
> SA> contracted AIDS from his little plaything. It would just be such
> SA> poetic justice ..)
> If a Christian expressed glee over the prospect of someone contracting
> AIDS, the response would be .... what?
The bashing that ONLY the Christians have coming.
Swaggart DESERVES to come down with AIDS. He is a baby-raper and THE quintessential,
double-standard mongering hypocrite.
Jesus cultism does NOT have the right to exist, Mikey. And it is one of
three religions on Earth of which this can correctly be claimed. (The other
two are Islam Creed Of Air Terrorists, and Judaism.)
The sooner Abraham and his tribal thunder-demon are completely forgotten,
the
better off all of us who DO have the right to exist will be.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 23 Feb 96 00:44:05
EID:05b7 20570580
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1b008137
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892644FF
PID: FM 2.02
> Then you admit, along with Brian Kolacy, that there is no reason for
> atheists to be moral, other than their personal choice to be.
There is also no other reason for BELIEVERS to be moral, as there's no such
thing as God.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 23 Feb 96 00:55:06
EID:352e 205706e0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1b008138
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89284603
PID: FM 2.02
> -=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Don Martin <=-
> MB> There's a book written by a fellow who has two Ph.D's -- one in
> MB> law, the other in Jungian psychology. He wrote a wonderful book
> MB> called _The Mind of the Bible Believer_ in which he explains the
> MB> steps necessary to turn a rational human being into a fundy.
> MB> Having actually gone through the steps himself, and having a
> MB> well-trained ability to analyze the exact nature of the steps, his
> MB> book is a scathing descrption of the processes involved. One step
> MB> (number four or five, maybe) he calls "logocide." When this step
> MB> is complete, a person is convinced that many everyday words have
> MB> two meanings, one employed by the great unwashed, the other
> MB> employed by we insiders. And never the twain shall meet. So once
> MB> the dastardly deed has been done satisfactorily, "love" becomes
> MB> "contempt for what you are," "day" becomes "any period of time we
> MB> want it to be," and so forth.
> He sounds like a condescending twit. Not to mention ignorant, judging
> by your presentation of his points about the words "love" and "day."
Want some cheese with that WHINE, Mikey Hardly??
The facts are EXACTLY as Marilyn described them above, and as Fred Rice
has correctly described them hundreds of times. Thought and faith ARE mutually
exclusive functions.
What you and your fellow Jesus cultists have done to the term "love", especially,
is EXACTLY as described above.
> In fact, the Hebrew word "yom," which is translated "day" in Genesis,
> does NOT have to mean a literal, 24-hour day. It can mean an
> unspecified age, as in our expression "in my grandfather's day." If I
> say that, I don't mean a 24-hour slice of time, but a period of years
> or decades. And if I say "in the day of the dinosaurs," I'm cramming
> millions of years into that "day."
> This is not a "fundy" invention, but the genuine meaning of the Hebrew
> word.
Hogwash. The usage of the term "day", as you use it above, is UNIQUE to
English.
The term "yom" in Hebrew means EXACTLY the time between one sunset and the
next -- NOTHING else.
> As for his statement -- relayed by you -- regarding the word "love,"
> it's completely baseless.
False. The equation of love with self-loathing is INTEGRAL to Biblical religion.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Oppose the Religios Right
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:23:07
EID:e5c3 20570ae0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1b008139
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a4c
PID: FM 2.02
> FR> Found this item in alt.society.labor-unions; thought it might be of
> FR> interest here, so I'm posting it for everyone's information.
> rs> Why are you falling for this liberalist crap!? Can't you see that
it
> rs> doesn't matter if we have Jesus H. Christ in office just as long as
I
> rs> have lower taxes to buy more shit.
> }:-} Yep. I'm all for increased intolerance, hatred, and bigotry
> provided my taxes go down.
What's even worse is this: chances are, taxes WON'T go down.
The intolerance, hatred, and bigotry are ALL we'll get.
The Republicans have been essentially THE public employment agency for El
Paso County, Colorado (and all counties bordering same except Pueblo County)
since the end of World War II. I am therefore in a position to comment.
Our taxes aren't appreciably smaller than anyone else's. But we sure have
a bumper crop of fundies who believe the lie that their cult has any right
whatsoever to exist.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: wrong board
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:37:08
EID:bd3e 20570ca0
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1b00813a
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 6274e1f6
PID: FM 2.02
> MG>>Didn't your god teach you not to steal, Don?
> DW> Look you un-intellectual moron what have I stollen? Are you so
> DW> desperate for attention that you have nothing better to do
> DW> than bother people who have a life? Why don't you run along
> DW> and vote for Bill or do something else stupid for America,
> DW> other than bothering people who don't care about your
> DW> "little thoughts" about God............
> Tell you what, Fundy...if your pal Buchanan gets the nomination, I'll
do
> just that. I'll do anything to keep stinking christers such as yourself
> out of office. I like it without being forced to pray in schools and
> having to worry about someone getting an abortion because some religious
> asshole thinks tht she shouldn't. I'm happy that at least part of the
> First Amentment is being upheld. I'd like to see the bunch of you
> morons go sit in a corner and not look at anything or read anything that
> offends you, including this echo. That way, we'll both be happier.
> Now if Bill gets reelected, will you move to Mexico or something?
What did the Mexicans ever do to you, that you would wish Psycho Ward on
them??
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:43:09
EID:51ac 20570d60
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1b00813b
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6277fcd0
PID: FM 2.02
> MB> FoF was the group of scum behind that amendment to the
> MB> Colorado Constitution that got declared unconstitutional in
> MB> the courts. Nice, loving group of rejects from the KKK.
> Really?
> I was under the impression that amendment was "Pastor" Pete
> Peters' baby.
Nope. FoF all the way.
Peters doesn't have the money to win a political campaign. FoF does. And
they provided it.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Mark Drake
|To: All
|Sub: All believers in channellers, etc.
|Date: 23 Feb 96 08:35:08
EID:388d 20574460
MSGID: 1:128/175 312d7cdb
PID: GED G0615
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8328
Hello All!
For those of you interested, NBC's Dateline will be featuring the Amazing
Randi
at his debunking best. That is NBC, 8:00 pm MST, 10:00 pm EST.
Mark
* Origin: Cult of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits, 1st Circle (719)632-0057 (1:128/175)
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|From: Mark Drake
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Watch TV tonight
|Date: 23 Feb 96 08:39:34
EID:92f6 205744e0
MSGID: 1:128/175 312d7dea
PID: GED G0615
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8328
Hello Sean!
Thought you might be interested that NBC's DATELINE will be featuring The
Amazing Randi, up to his old tricks of debunking the usual horde of fakes
and phonies. Might be worth watching.
Mark
* Origin: Cult of Gwenny the Pooh's Tits, 1st Circle (719)632-0057 (1:128/175)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Roland
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 22 Feb 96 07:50:00
EID:e3b2 20563e40
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 6cb5c453
RO>K> RO>I am a christain.. And i believe most of the Christian ideas. But
i hav
RO>K> on
RO>K> You will get answers. You probably won't like them unless you're
RO>K> willing to learn and think for yourself.
RO>I am always open to other people idea's..Even on `sensitive' issue's
like
RO>religion...However i am searching for an explanation that could possibly
RO>coalaborate evolution and creationalism.
They are two entirely separate subjects. Evolution does not address
the origins of life, it explains the mechanisms which produce changes.
'Creationism' is claimed by some to be a 'scientific' theory, however
it contains none of the criteria necessary for one.
Then again, there are those who laughably claim that 'Evolution is
a religion'. I cannot explain this incredibly idiotic notion.
---
* OLX 2.2 * There is no cause for alarm. And the check's in the mail
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: fax
|Date: 22 Feb 96 07:50:00
EID:efe0 20563e40
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 1348fcc4
MH> JS>Yea. but where does it say that the Bible says they aren't? That
would
MH> JS>be a contradiction. Just cause man choses to call them something
else
MH> JS>has no bearing on whether or not the Bible is correct in doing so...
MH> KS> You insipid moron, it is contradicting FACTS.
MH> Jim is being insipid here, although I suspect it's intentional.
In which case it is even _more_ idiotic.
MH> However, the Bible in its original Hebrew, is not incorrect. The word
MH> usually translated "birds" actually simply refers to flying vertebrates
MH> (as opposed to insects.) Apparently the English-language translators,
MH> trying to find a single word to express this, figured "bird" was the
MH> closest they could get.
Oh?? Then why did they go to the trouble of translating all the names
of OTHER kinds of flying creatures? And why would it have to be a
'single' word? I would bet big odds there is a Hebrew word for
'bats' as well as every kind of bird found in the Middle East.
MH> You can continue insisting it's an error if you like, but if you do,
MH> you'll be contradicting facts.
It's an error. It plainly says what it says and it's wrong. TS.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If idiots could fly, he would be a 747.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 22 Feb 96 07:50:00
EID:28f2 20563e40
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 0f5091d1
MH> KS> However in Gen 2:15-19 it says the animals were created afterward...
MH> KS> perhaps you consider this a minor bungle...?
MH> Does it? To me, it looks like Genesis 1 is an overview and Genesis 2
is
MH> a closer look at the creation of man. In that case, the animals aren't
To me, it looks like a fuckup.
MH> A third point: Many translations render the verb in Genesis 2:19 as
MH> "had formed," which suggests the truth of what said in the first point
Oh. How conviEEEEEENient....
MH> -- the animals had already been created, and Genesis 2 simply doesn't
MH> mention them right away since they are not the primary focus.
It says what it says. It isn't my fault it's wrong.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Better to light one fundy than curse the darkness.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:40:49
EID:d104 20570d00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62922859
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 33fa3d41
MB>> FoF was the group of scum behind that amendment to the
MB>> Colorado Constitution that got declared unconstitutional
MB>> in the courts. Nice, loving group of rejects from the KKK.
JH>> Really?
JH>> I was under the impression that amendment was "Pastor"
JH>> Pete Peters' baby. (Peters, a Coloradan, is a widely
JH>> recognized leader of the "Christian Identity" movement.)
MB> If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.
I don't know that you are wrong. It's quite possible we are both
right (there has been more than one nutball political referendum,
amendment or piece of legislation to come out of Colorado in
recent years). And Colorado certainly has no shortage of reactionary
religious kooks. I also wouldn't put it past Pete Peters to take
credit for someone else's work.
If you've any source material on who is responsible for what, post
away. Maybe we could start a series on KKKooks and KKKlowns of
KKKolorado.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 23 Feb 96 01:50:52
EID:26d9 20570e40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62924618
REPLY: 1:3611/2 0004ddc2
JO> A person recently told me that the early beginnings of the
JO> christian ritual of holy comminuion were rooted in
JO> canabilism. This person claimed that if you ate the flesh
JO> and drank the blood of a person then you would aquire the
JO> attributes of that person.
JO> Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
Sure. Grab an encylopedia and see what it has to say on
canibalism. That is the usual motive behind the practice.
Only very rarely is it simply a matter of putting meat
on the table.
And even when it is done primarily for dietary reasons (as
it was with the Aztecs, Mayans and other Central Americans)
they almost always include a bunch of religious gobble-de-gook
as window dressing.
With the exception of the occasional but rare psychopath or emergency situation,
canibalism is NEVER found outside a
religious context.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:05:58
EID:e40b 205748a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62962c43
REPLY: 1:289/80 312C342D
EH> I do have one loan out. I have a loan out for a car, but no
EH> credit cards, no other loans, straight cash. I agree that we
EH> should not take out loans, but it couldn't be helped. My wife
EH> had wrecked the car we had paid cash for, shortly after we
EH> bought it. We had a little saved up for our next car, but not
EH> enough to purchase another one. So, we were forced to go get a
EH> loan, or walk.
I see...
You love comfort and convenience more than you love God.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: ABORT THEM ALL! (Then eat Staal's remains.)
|Date: 23 Feb 96 09:11:06
EID:f69b 20574960
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62963c0c
JH>> Memento Mori.
NS> I'm sorry to hear that you're dead. Can I be one of your
NS> profits, er, prophets when you arise?
Sure. Do you want a franchise or would you rather work for
a commission?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: New Covenant
|Date: 23 Feb 96 23:42:12
EID:2c82 2057bd40
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 629e34a9
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892A0E2B
JJ>> Acts 15:22-29 "Then the apostles and the elders, with the
JJ>> consent of the whole church, decided to choose men from
JJ>> among their members and to send them to Antioch with Paul
JJ>> and Barnabas.
DC> "Barnabas" is quite close to "Barabas", isn't it...
Only in the same way that "menopause" is quite close to "menorah".
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 24 Feb 96 02:58:44
EID:5c7a 20581740
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62a01a4f
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 190a0a29
FR> Happy days are here again
FR> it's okay to hate blacks and queers again
FR> it's time to spread the white man's fears again
FR> when Bucanon's here again
I was stuck at a bus stop for about half an hour today.
There was a payphone at the bus stop.
I called 1-800-GO-PAT-GO, repeatedly.
Each time I asked the "worker" a question before they could
launch into their script. The question was simple: Did Buchanan
serve in Vietnam? (I used a few varients of this same question as
the dialog progressed, liberally throwing in the words "draft
dodger" at every opportunity).
"Did Buchanan dodge the draft?"
"I don't know, this is a support line."
"Then support my need to know: is he a draft dodger?"
"I don't know."
"Why don't you know?"
"This is a support line."
"I'm calling for support. Did he serve in Vietnam or did he dodge
the draft?"
"I don't know. This is a support line."
...loop...loop...loop...loop...
There were several attempts to get me to call a toll number in
Virginia. When things got to that point, I'd hang up and dial
the 800 number yet again.
T'was fun it was.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: The Constitution of the USSR, 1977 part1
|Date: 24 Feb 96 03:39:12
EID:cd18 20581ce0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62a06461
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 312c662d
SA> THe following is, AFAIK, the ENTIRE Constitution of the
SA> USSR, as ratified in 1977 under Brezhnev.
Could you post the Constitution of the Most Serene Republic of San
Marino next? And follow it up with the 1932 annual budget of Akron,
Ohio. I'm suffering from a severe shortage of useless text files and
every little bit helps.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 24 Feb 96 03:48:38
EID:04fe 20581e00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62a0a075
JB> I searched on 'female executive', 'female ceo', (of which
JB> there were 0 matches) and 'women in business'. Those 7
JB> articles were gleaned from a total of 2500 searched.
Try searching for plain old "Ms." or "Mrs." used in conjunction
with "President" or "Chair*" or "Board*" or "Director".
Excuse the rather complex Boolean, but I suspect it's unrealistic
to expect a person in such a position to wear their gender on their
shirtsleave or state it on their letterhead.
JB> I may go back and try again later, but it is truly
JB> discouraging.
It'll still be discouraging. (I'm only disagreeing with your
search stategy, not the point you are trying to make.)
You might also try contacting (sorry no phone numbers handy):
Women, Natl Asso of Bank
500 N. Michigan Ave. Ste 1400
Chicago, IL 60611
Women Intl, Financial
(same address as above)
Women's Association, American Business
9100 Ward Pkwy, POB 8728, Kansas City, MO 64114
Women's Clubs, Natl Federation of Business and Professional
2012 Massachusetts Ave. NW, Washington, DC 20036
(Pardon me, I have to go kill the person who alphabetized the
list I got those addresses from.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Don Ward
|Sub: wrong board
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:26:15
EID:3dcf 20579340
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 629b554d
REPLY: 1:388/14.0 312b4906
DW> Oh that's right you like Slick Willy and his barrel of lies and
DW> liberal ways.
DW> <<>> You must either work for the government or use
DW> "welfare" as your main source of income..
Go ahead and vote for Buchanan...if you're stupid enough. And I have no
doubt in my mind that you are. If your pal Buchanan gets elected, we'll
be eating shit for dinner before we can impeach him. But I expect no less
of a gawd worshipping moron like yourself.
DW> You probably want save the rain forest and spotted owls on one
DW> hand and want to "Murder" an innocent unborn child on the
DW> other hand.. Doesn't add up if you ask me..
I'd like to save what is useful. Ask yourself if you count in that category.
DW> Yet you claim to be wise.. You are inferior to the agenda of
DW> civilization and to your own self.......
I managed to get an education and use it. Neither of the above can apply
to you.
If some fundy irgnoramus like Buchanan is elected, you will get just wht
you deserve. Live with it, Turd.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: children
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:32:20
EID:f610 20579400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 629b5bc7
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892B0E28
PS>> One-third to half, Dan. I don't think it's as high as
PS>> two-thirds.
I'm interested int his as 1/3 to 1/2 aseems awfully high to me. Who can
I contact for a reference to the material and how the stats were gathered?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: He's Jealous! He's Crazy!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:44:18
EID:e376 20579580
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 629b807f
REPLY: 1:215/130 0014ac6b
KM>> Maybe you consider jealously a character
KM>> flaw, I do not. I believe
KM>> that it is a natural feeling that goes right
KM>> along with love.
EF> Sorry folks. This one is beyond my ability to satirize. Any
EF> takers?
Ken's debate technique here has always been to over simplify everything.
Maybe he does this so that he can understand stuff posted to him.
An example:
"Ken, why do you worship a murdering god?"
"I don't worship a MURDERING god."
He just forgot about wht the catholics did to the protestats, what the nazis
did to the jews, what the OT god commanded his faithful to do to nonbelievers
and other assorted sinners. He's good for some comic relief on occasion.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: The Illuminati
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: End Times!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:49:14
EID:748f 20579620
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 629b82cd
REPLY: 1:123/319 56cb0694
LJ> I hope you realize that the international bankers are behind us
LJ> being in Bosnia. Iraq and Iran are next on their agenda.
Kiss our collective choads, Larry.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: David Robins
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:51:27
EID:2013 20579660
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 629b874a
REPLY: 1:247/312.0 312cfa31
DR> Evolution is ultimately from the devil, for if people believe
DR> that they are products of random chance they will never turn
DR> to God.
Sounds good to me.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 234/300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Craig
|To: All
|Sub: Buchanan Bashing!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 23:25:00
EID:fa48 2057bb20
PID: RA 2.02 23041
MSGID: 1:123/319 56ccea64
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
Did you hear that "kike" Koppel trying to crucify Pat on Nightline?
---
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Pam Gray
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 23 Feb 96 03:20:04
EID:ff9d 20571a80
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1b840186
PG>I don't think he will but then you may never know... :)
PG>BH> I'm giving it up for Lent...:-) I like "The King Of Dry"'s attitude
PG>BH> towards it...check out ToxicNet and his reply to Prozac...
PG>I will thanks!
PG>BH> I can't see what the use is to read through 300 msgs and we can't
PG>BH> respond! See Tagline...
PG>Let's go elsewhere...
PG>BH> ž SLMR 2.1a ž ...All stressed out and no one to choke!...
PG>HEHEHEHE good one!
I'd LOVE to be able to bash stuff around HolySmoke but the messages
don't go and I got tired of typing for nothing. Jeez, we could go the
"Religions" at RofD--but we don't really disagree...:-)
---
ž SLMR 2.1a ž Anyone can walk on water--just know where the rocks are!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosśMusicśArtśCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: lack of any Evidence what
|Date: 23 Feb 96 16:59:18
EID:9306 20578760
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1b918cd8
AS> precursors. Laws of physics, to the best of our knowledge, do not change
AS> with time (with a possible exception on the strength of gravity which
has
AS> not been confirmed), nor is there any real evidence of other laws of
AS> physics in other existences, which would give some excuse for us being
a
AS> statistical possibility (many existences without the precise laws of
AS> physics in which intelligent life can develop, and ours just the luck
of
But who "defined" these laws? And who "defined" God ? Nothing exists that
is
not just a product of mans perception of what exist, based on his puny 5
senses which have already proven to be VERY limited indeed. WHo KNOW what
if "anything" exists outside of what we can perceive with our limited senses,
or if anything that we THINK exists really exists at all.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Pam Gray
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:06:06
EID:0705 205788c0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1b918cd9
Boni,
Well we could but we wouldn't have as much fun...
BH> I'd LOVE to be able to bash stuff around HolySmoke but the messages
BH> don't go and I got tired of typing for nothing. Jeez, we could go the
BH> "Religions" at RofD--but we don't really disagree...:-)
Oh well I guess we just have to talk about something else elsewhere - we
both
could check out the other debating base! :)
Apologies for being off topic...
Take care,
Pam
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Simon Ewins
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 23 Feb 96 07:36:30
EID:ddc3 20573c80
REPLY: 0305818A
PID: FleetStreet 1.14 #115
MSGID: 1:250/666 312d72b7
CHRS: IBMPC 2
AS> That is
AS> why both Mike and I ignore such taunts given to others and laugh at
AS> them when directed at ourselves. We are under no compulsion to
AS> handle snakes, drink poison, etc. That is not being lacking in
AS> faith, or cowardly. That is using sound literary criticism. Mark (or
AS> whoever the original author was) NEVER SAID THAT, and in turn, Jesus
AS> never said that. (Or if he did, it was hidden for several centuries,
AS> and no one mentioned finding the ending miraculously.)
So the _entire_ book is _not_ the "word of god"?
How do you know that a chunk of Luke or Matthew or John is not also a 'false'
writing like the end of Mark? Perhaps the 'earlier' versions of those gospels
that do not contain, say, the resurrection story, have not yet been found.
Does it not make you nervous placing such faith, as you do, in the accuracy
of a book that you know has one false section and cannot know does not have
others?
If the brighter christians now finally recognize (as Dr. Morton Smith did
years ago) that the end of Mark is not, in fact, 'gospel' then why do you
allow it to be left in bibles that are being printed even as we speak?
Take care,
Simon
wiz@axaxa.com
http://www.axaxa.com/axaxa
cserve:70543,2540
---
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A :: Where only reality matters :: (1:250/666)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: suffering people
|Date: 23 Feb 96 20:50:00
EID:925c 2057a640
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C4385
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> God cares greatly, Rob, whether you believe that or not. But he wants
MH> us to choose the right thing voluntarily, not be coerced into it.
MH> When we choose the wrong thing, people often suffer -- and God is not
MH> pleased about it. But Karen's abuser, for example, has an opportunity
MH> to wise up and repent WITHOUT being forced to. And if he doesn't, he
MH> will be judged.
KD> Just FYI, my abuser was my Christian, rather devout, mother, who
KD> speaks in tongues and all of that Pentecostal stuff while remaining
a
KD> member in good standing of the Episcopal church.
That makes it worse.
KD> [I think the fact that
KD> I'm a feminist makes people want to think I was harmed badly by a man,
KD> but I was not.]
No, probably just the simple fact that men abuse women far more often
than women abuse women -- or at least, the fact that that is the
common belief -- leads to that assumption.
KD> And why couldn't God have gotten me out? All he needed to do was allow
KD> someone to discover it and have me go live with my grandparents.
I don't know, Karen. I wish I had easy answers for every question, but
I don't. Part of having faith means trusting in God even when
circumstances seem to argue against it.
... Tagline deleted -- Nothing funny about this.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: spontaneous abortion
|Date: 23 Feb 96 20:53:00
EID:3dc5 2057a6a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C4386
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Except that smoking, drinking to excess and using drugs when you're
MH> not ill *are* self-destructive behaviors. The woman doesn't have to
MH> know she's pregnant to damage the fetus, while doing things that also
MH> damage herself.
JB>
JB> The POINT is, Mike, that a woman who ***DOESN'T*** do any, repeat any,
JB> of these things is still just as likely to miscarry. And the person
JB> Lynda was replying to had said that MOST spontaneous abortions come
JB> from women who abuse drugs and alcohol. Or are stressed.
JB>
JB> The FACT is that he is wrong. Dead wrong. Spontaneous abortions happen
JB> to 1/3 to 1/2 (some think even higher) of ALL pregnancies, regardless
JB> of circumstances.
Then why do cigarettes and alcohol containers carry warnings that
pregnant women shouldn't use them?
I doubt seriously that the risk of miscarriage is equal whether the
mother is a chain-smoking alcoholic or scrupulously healthy. If the
risk of miscarriage is, say, 1/2 of all pregnancies, that most likely
means it's 3/4 of pregnancies to women who smoke and drink and 1/4 to
those who don't, which averages out to 1/2 of all.
JB> If smoking, drinking and drugs were the causative
JB> factors in miscarriage, then we would have NO babies born to mothers
JB> who do them, now would we?
Sure we would. Cigarettes cause cancer, but not everyone who smokes
gets cancer. (You don't work for the tobacco industry, do you?)
Judith, I KNOW you know better than what you just said.
... Dyslexics of the world untie!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF "hate" 1
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:06:00
EID:dfa3 2057a8c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C4387
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Evidence, please.
JB> The next few posts should present it to you...**IF** you will bother
JB> to read the whole thing and not start justifying everything from the
JB> start. One post is from someone who lives in Colorado Springs and deals
JB> with FoF every day, on the street...upclose and personal. The other
is
JB> from Dobson himself. Full of lies, inaccuracies and inflammatory
JB> rhetoric.
JB> Read it and then tell me that FoF is not a hate group.
I read it. FoF is not a hate group.
1. FoF has strong moral convictions. Having strong moral convictions
does NOT mean you hate people who don't share them. "Hate" is a very
strong word, and I refuse to assume that disagreement equals hate. If
Dobson believes that radical feminism is dangerous, that only means he
thinks radical feminism is dangerous. It does NOT mean he hates women,
mainstream feminists or even radical feminists -- he merely disagrees,
strongly, with what radical feminists stand for.
2. Some of the statements he made were probably inaccurate. You offer
no evidence, however, that they are *lies*, which are intentional
misrepresentations. Some of the statements made in the anti-FoF article
you posted are also inaccurate. But I'll be kind and not assume that
they're lies. I also won't assume that the author hates Christians just
because he disagrees with them.
I will offer some specific observations in the next few posts.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF "hate" 2
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:12:00
EID:dee3 2057a980
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C4388
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
JB> First, consider where this international event will be held. No
JB> country on earth has abused and oppressed more women than China,
JB> with its forced abortion policy and its "one child per family"
JB> law. This is a nation that monitors menstrual cycles so it can
JB> identify young women with unapproved pregnancies and drag them
JB> into medical clinics to have their babies killed. It is also a
JB> country that has murdered tens of millions of female infants.
JB> [Interjection by me; this is a blatant lie as regards the Chinese
JB> gov't. They don't care what sex the one child is, as long as there is
JB> only one. Girls are not monitored and women are not 'dragged into
JB> clinics' nor has 'the country' murdered tens of millions of female
JB> infants. The Chinese society itself...the people of China, and their
JB> ancient customs, have always held females to be of less worth and
JB> infanticide of females is a custom that goes back as far as the country
JB> itself. While a despicable custom, FoF could, at least, tell the truth
JB> about it.]
Interjection be me: FoF *does* tell the truth about it. The paragraph
above doesn't say or even imply that the *government* cares what sex
the child is. In one sentence it says the government enforces a
one-child rule. In the next, *separate* sentence, it says "It is also a
country that has murdered tens of millions of female infants." The
country isn't the government, but the people. Perhaps the wording could
have been more precise, but Dobson isn't saying that the government is
responsible for these murders.
JB> If that isn't enough to turn one's stomach, consider this:
JB> According to World (which also reported the practice described
JB> above), human fetuses have begun to appear on menus of Chinese
JB> restaurants as a delicacy and health tonic. This account was
JB> cited:
JB> "To investigate widespread rumors that unborn human
JB> beings were being sought and eaten to improve
JB> complexions and promote general well-being, an Eastern
JB> Express reporter on March 1 entered the state-run
JB> Shenzhen Health Center for Women and Children and
JB> requested a fetus for a feigned illness. A female
JB> doctor told the reporter the department had run out of
JB> fetuses, but to come back.
JB> "The next day, according to the paper, the reporter
JB> returned at lunch time. The doctor eventually emerged
JB> from the operating theater holding a fist-sized glass
JB> bottle stuffed with thumb-sized fetuses. She said,
JB> 'There are 10 fetuses here, all aborted this morning.
JB> You can take them. We are a state hospital and don't
JB> charge anything. Normally we doctors take them home to
JB> eat[--]all free. Since you don't look well, you can
JB> take them."'[5]
JB> [The Eastern Express reporter, if you will note, is not named. EE is
a
JB> religious based 'newspaper' that, if you will excuse the expression,
JB> is so full of shit they stink. The Hague Yearly Meeting reports that
JB> their missionaries in China refute this claim in the strongest terms.
JB> It is, quite simply, a tactic to stir indignation against both abortion
JB> AND the Chinese.]
This is a bit hard to swallow (!) and I would like more documentation
before I believed it. However, if it's wrong, it still isn't
necessarily a lie on Dobson's part.
And even if this one point isn't true, all the other points that *are*
true more than make Dobson's case.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF "hate" 3
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:17:00
EID:1e22 2057aa20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C4389
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
JB> 3. The primary objective in Beijing will be the same as a
JB> similar event held last year in Cairo, Egypt. That
JB> conference was designed to promote safe-sex ideology, condom
JB> usage and "reproductive rights"," (i.e., free and
JB> unrestricted access to abortion) in every nation of the
JB> [Another lie by FoF. 'Reproductive Rights' only briefly touched on
JB> abortion, the major thrust was the right of access to birth control,
JB> legal sterilization,
JB> an end to female circumcision.]
With, as I recall, the insistence that abortion be pushed as a backup
method of in case contraception fails. "Reproductive rights" in America
is usually a code word for abortion; I see no reason to doubt that it
is at least partly that in this case too.
JB> complain that they can't get help in developing clean water
JB> supplies and medical support, but they can get condoms by
JB> the millions[--]whether they want them or not.[17] Indeed,
JB> President Clinton has requested $635 million in the 1996
JB> budget for international population control and another $400
JB> million at home![18] And, that's your tax money they're
JB> using to kill babies and give condoms to kids.
JB> [Non-inflammatory rhetoric, eh, Mike?]
It is inflammatory. It is also true.
JB> By the way, President Clinton recently repeated his campaign
JB> statement that "abortion should be safe, legal and rare."
JB> How can he utter those farcical words at the very moment he
JB> is involved to his eyeteeth in the promotion of abortion in
JB> every nation on earth?
A good question.
JB> Relating again to "the deconstruction of gender" described
JB> above, the goal is to give members of the human family five
JB> genders from which to choose instead of two. When freed from
JB> traditional biases, a person can decide whether to be male,
JB> female, homosexual, lesbian, or transgendered. Some may want
JB> to try all five in time. Homosexuality is considered the
JB> moral equivalent of heterosexuality.[20] For women, however,
JB> the preferred love relationship is lesbian in nature. In
JB> that way male oppressiveness can be negated. Artificial
JB> insemination is the ideal method of producing a pregnancy,
JB> and a lesbian partner should have the same parenting rights
JB> accorded historically to biological fathers. [21]
This five-gender thing is frankly bizarre. (And I know this report is
accurate, as I'd read the same thing via the Associated Press and other
mainstream news outlets.)
JB> 5. Finally (and there is much more I can't cover in this
JB> letter), the official draft document is extremely hostile to
JB> religion[--]especially that which gender feminists have
JB> demonized as "fundamentalists." By fundamentalists, they
JB> refer to Catholics, Evangelicals, Orthodox Christians,
JB> Orthodox Jews, Muslims, and any other persons whose
JB> religious views contradict feminist dogma. Nothing, they
JB> say, has done more to oppress women or limit their
JB> aspirations than these patriarchal religious beliefs and
JB> teachings. Unbelievably, the people who are representing our
JB> great nation in Beijing are openly antagonistic to what most
JB> of you and I believe with all our hearts.[22]
Another good point. If Dobson strongly disagrees with the values pushed
at the conference, Judith, why doesn't he have the right to say so
without being branded a hatemonger?
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF "hate" 4
|Date: 23 Feb 96 22:09:00
EID:dc63 2057b120
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C438A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
JB> Date: 25 August 1993
JB> Subject: What's wrong with the Religious Right
JB> From: citizens@cscns.com (David Bruce, PhD; Member, Citizens Project)
JB> X-Copyright: Copyright (c) 1993 by David Bruce. This material may
JB> be freely copied and distributed for noncommercial purposes
JB> provided that this notice remains intact. Commercial use of
JB> this material requires prior written permission from the author.
JB> X-Disclaimer: THIS MATERIAL DOES NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT THE VIEWS OF
JB> CITIZENS PROJECT. IT IS PROVIDED SOLELY AS A SERVICE TO OUR
JB> PARTICIPANTS.
JB> Several months ago, on a bright, sunny Sunday afternoon, a young
JB> woman and middle aged man rang my doorbell. When I answered, the
JB> young woman somewhat nervously stated that they had come to confirm
JB> "the census" and asked if I would be "good enough" to participate.
JB> I was a little suspicious: "You mean the official U.S. census?"
JB> They both nodded affirmatively, so I asked the young woman "Where
JB> are you from?" I looked at her; she looked at the middle aged man
JB> and he smiled benevolently and said, "From your local neighborhood
JB> church." My suspicion grew; I couldn't help but ask the young
JB> woman, why she hadn't responded to my question, didn't she know
JB> where she was from? But never mind, confirming the census sounded
JB> like a civic-minded thing to do regardless of who was putting in
JB> the leg work, so I agreed to participate. "Alright, first
JB> question: 'Do you believe in God Almighty?" We had just exceeded
JB> my limit of tolerable deviance. As a Unitarian, I've actively
JB> encouraged tolerance and have developed a sincere personal
JB> appreciation for religious and cultural diversity. But I can't
JB> stand being lied to; I lost my temper: "There were no questions
JB> about God (Almighty or otherwise) on the census; I know; I filled
JB> it out; You're lying to me; Why would you lie? Did 'my local
JB> neighborhood church' send you here to lie to me? Does Jesus know
JB> what you're doing?" By the time I paused to take a breath, they
JB> were already half way down the walkway; she, near tears and he
JB> assuring her that I was possessed (or something like that).
I note you accept *this* story -- which I find a bit suspect -- without
question. The author's sole witnesses would be the couple, who I note
aren't here to confirm the story.
JB> The Community Impact Seminar provided considerable evidence that
JB> Focus fully intends to impose their own "Christian solutions" on a
JB> wide variety of complex social problems.
Read: Dares to claim the right to participate in civil government.
JB> made it clear that social activism in local neighborhood churches
JB> is also necessary. Replacing traditional "works of mercy" with "a
JB> quest for justice" through locally-coordinated economic and
JB> political action transforms their fundamentalist, evangelical
JB> beliefs from a source of personal values and spiritual strength to
JB> a framework for social, political and judicial change.
Which is what every social movement, from women's suffrage to civil
rights has done. So?
JB> they pose, it is important for you to understand who they really
JB> are.
Oh yes, do tell us who they *really* are!
JB> Spiritual Claims
JB> Theologically and spiritually speaking, Focus on the Family claims
JB> to represent traditional Christian beliefs and values. They paint
JB> themselves as somewhat moderate, mainstream representatives of the
JB> faith; however, even the surveys they used during the seminar
JB> presentations suggested that only a minority of Americans who
JB> "claim" to be Christians really accept the Bible as the exclusive,
JB> literal and inerrant word of God. A friend, who heads a Biblical
JB> Christian organization (seen by some as being even more
JB> conservative than Focus) was very quick to admit that the Bible is
JB> full of metaphors (i.e., it is not literal).
I seriously doubt that FoF claims every word in the Bible is
*literally* true. Otherwise they'd believe that God has wings. Even
fundamentalists, Judith, understand poetic imagery.
JB> While there are many
JB> who claim to be Christians who insist that the Bible is the only
JB> (i.e., exclusive) divine revelation, many others accept the
JB> possibility that other great religious works also contain
JB> revelation and enlightenment. Many such moderate Christians are
JB> embarrassed by the dogmatic and exclusive perspectives put forward
JB> by groups such as Focus and are eager to disassociate themselves
JB> from such groups.
So?
JB> In his book, Evil: the Shadow Side of Reality, author John Sanford
JB> recounts the story of the grand inquisitor from Dostoevsky's The
JB> Brothers Karamazov. Basically, Christ has returned to earth and
JB> the grand inquisitor has had him thrown in prison. It's not that
JB> the grand inquisitor believes Jesus is an imposter; the grand
JB> inquisitor accuses Jesus of having come back to disturb and disrupt
JB> the work the church has been carrying out in his name. The
JB> inquisitor claims that the church has "corrected" Christ's
JB> teachings which had placed on mankind the impossible burden of
JB> being free but which led to too much misery. The church had lifted
JB> this burden of freedom so that people could be happy. Needless to
JB> say, Sanford as well as many others who call themselves Christians
JB> do not share the grand inquisitors perspective. As Sanford
JB> suggests:
JB> The greatest ethical value, according to Jesus, is to become a free
JB> person, and this means a conscious person.
But it isn't. The greatest ethical value according to Jesus is love of
God, followed by love of neighbor and then of self. Jesus was not a
guru of self-actualization, which is what Sanford seems to say.
JB> conform to a standard of goodness imposed by collective authority,
JB> and to repress everything from our consciousness that contradicts
JB> this, we have lost our freedom; we are no longer conscious people
JB> responsible for ourselves. But in Jesus' ethic man is left with
JB> the alternatives life poses, the problem of his own duality and the
JB> necessity for psychological honesty. Growth in consciousness is
JB> valued more highly by Jesus than conformity to "goodness." Freedom
JB> is of the highest psychological value, because this alone makes
JB> possible the development of consciousness and love. (p.83)
This is true, but it downplays the fact that Jesus *did* teach
goodness. Not mindless obedience, no. He does want obedience arrived
at through concious choice. But it is the goodness that is the end
goal. "Growth in conciousness" is a means to the end.
JB> Focus' implicit insistence on accepting a particular interpretation
JB> of scripture as the literal and inerrant "truth" obviates
JB> individual conscious decision making.
Like every religious group, Focus is an organization you can be part of
or not, as you choose. I have yet to see any evidence that they want to
force religious belief on anyone. They may lobby for legislation of
certain moral principles, but all laws are codifications of moral
principles, and all people have the right to lobby for laws they would
like to see passed or repealed.
Since when is exercising your right to free speech "imposing beliefs?"
JB> One last point to be made involves the claim of the "inerrancy" of
JB> the scriptures. The belief that a work as extensive and eclectic
JB> as the Bible is without error necessarily rests on the assumption
JB> that the work itself is without internal contradiction. However,
JB> when we read in Matthew 5:9: "Blessed are the peacemakers", it is
JB> a little disconcerting to read Jesus' words several chapters later
JB> (Matthew 10:34) "Think not that I come to send peace on earth, I
JB> come not to send peace but to send a sword."
Again with these banal lists of "contradictions" that depend on
taking passages out of context or making unwarranted assumptions. Can't
atheists do any better than that?
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: HELLO AL!!!!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:38:00
EID:e641 2057acc0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C438B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
You're coming through again, Al.
:)
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FOF=Staal abuse
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:47:00
EID:731d 2057ade0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C438C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Fredric Rice <=-
tp> I happen to be a Christian
FR> Most children who were abused are.
AS> US Statistics, perhaps? Are you perhaps aware that the majority of
AS> Americans are Christians, also? So one would think any subgroup would
AS> be more likely to be mostly Christians, unless they were obviously
AS> ruled out by dividing the subgroup by religious belief.
AS> Oops. Sorry. I'm making the mistake of taking you seriously. Carry
AS> on.
You're learning ... :)
... Behaviorial Research: Pulling habits out of rats.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: affirm
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:50:00
EID:52f0 2057ae40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C438D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> That's because your cult masters want to keep you ignorant, Jim, of
FR> life-affirming religions. Otherwise your death cult would drop ever
FR> more quickly in club membership.
AS> Interesting. What religions do you consider life-affirming? Wicca?
AS> Buddhism? The Church of Elvis?
Furthermore, since when is truth a matter of popular opinion?
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Hardy
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:55:00
EID:11e7 2057aee0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 892C438E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to All <=-
JH> "(Secularists) also get passionate about passion. They have to prove
JH> themselves, prove that they aren't what they really are: spiritual
JH> wimps. So they substitute sexual passion for religious passion, and
JH> become so fanatical about their addiction to it that they practice,
JH> justify and encourage anything, from sodomy to baby-killing, to
JH> preserve this 'right.'"
JH> -- Michael Hardy states that we fuck dead babies in the
JH> ass. His way of claiming the "higher moral ground".
Hm.
Apparently my earlier high opinion of you was egregiously
overestimated.
1. *I* didn't say it. I am quoting an author.
2. The author doesn't say it either. As is obvious to anyone with a
second-grade education.
The number of Holy Smoke atheists that I find worth the time of day
just dropped by one.
... Thanks for your opinion. I hope I can get it off my shoe.
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 21 Feb 96 15:24:00
EID:d432 20557b00
February 23 Friday
A STRING OF BAD CHOICES
Read: Genesis 13
As righteousness leads to life,
so he who pursues evil pursues
it to his own death.
-Proverbs 11:19
The teenager expressed the view of many. Speaking of the wild
parties he attended, the 16-year-old declared, "Without these
parties, my life wouldn't have any purpose."
Attitudes like this result from a string of bad choices that
multiply until life loses its meaning. Examples of this "bad-choice
string" can be seen all around us.
Take the couple whose first bad choice is to be sexually active
without being married. They soon follow that practice with other
poor decisions that lead to spiritual, economic, and social
problems. Or consider the business person who takes money from
petty cash to line his pockets only to follow that bad choice with
many others just to cover it up.
In Genesis 13 we read about the bad decisions Lot made when he and
Abram decided to part ways. Given the pick of the land, Lot chose
the best ground for himself, and then settled near a city known for
its wickedness. Genesis 20 records the tragic result of one bad
choice that led to others.
Learn from Lot's mistake. If you have made a decision that
violates God's principles, don't let one mistake turn into a string
of bad choices. Stop right now and ask the Lord's forgiveness and
help.
-J. David Branon
The grip of habit can be so strong,
You find it easy to choose the wrong;
But let God's Spirit control within,
And He will free you from binding sin. -Kasper
TRUE REPENTANCE REJECTS THE WRONG
AND RETURNS TO THE RIGHT.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: churches
|Date: 23 Feb 96 07:56:40
EID:b742 20573f00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 924ce90f
REPLY: 0305555C
On (21 Feb 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> Al, this is the first message of yours I've seen in over a month.
MB> I've seen message TO you with stuff BY you quoted in them, but
MB> I've not seen your name on the FROM line in perhaps as long as
MB> two months.
AS> Great! So calling from another BBS DOES help?
Maybe your other sysop found some inventive way to cut back on
long-distance charges.
AS> But I called Mike Hardy at home Sunday, and he is as close as
AS> Alabama, and HE didn't see it. Bizarre. Still, good to know.
AS> I wonder if Dan can see me now?
I just hope that whoever does the message tally for the year gets
their feed from a different downstream source than I do. If not,
you're screwed in this year's account.
MB> I knew all that about you and Barbara. And, furthermore, I'm well
MB> aware that not all men see things the way my parents attempted to
MB> teach me men saw them. If all men were really that stupid, I'd
MB> still be single. As you well know, I have no time in my life for
MB> self-inflicted stupidity, regardless of the focus of said stupidity.
AS> Right. And I respect that about you, Marilyn. Maybe, if this isn't
AS> just a fluke, we can get into the free will/omnipotence/problem of
AS> evil thing again. I have all sorts of new ammunition, from Kant and
AS> others. But let's wait a while and see if this is a one-time fluke
or
AS> the real deal.
Fine with me. It appears to be the full-meal deal, but we might as
well wait and be sure. Your new sysop will LOVE you; his LD bill
will increase 500 percent!
... Burro: an ass. Burrow: a hole in the ground. Know the difference.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 22 Feb 96 19:04:00
EID:d432 20569880
February 24 Saturday
WE ALL NEED JESUS
Read: Luke 18:18-27
You He made alive, who were
dead in trespasses and sins.
-Ephesians 2:1
A Christian couple told their sons to be kind to the boys next
door but not to become close companions with them. They explained
that these boys could get them in trouble because of their dirty
talk, their fighting, and their disrespectful attitude.
When the father of those boys learned this, he was angry. "You
think your kids are too good for mine," he said one day to the other
father. "No," the believer quietly replied. "My kids have so many
bad traits that they need all the encouragement they can get in the
right direction. In fact, we too are sinners who need forgiveness.
That's why we believe on Jesus Christ. We're not better than you or
your boys."
Even the best among us, young or old, think and act in sinful
ways. We need the forgiveness that comes through faith in Jesus
Christ, and we need Him to help us live a life that pleases God.
The rich young ruler in Luke 18 was outwardly religious and
morally upright. But Jesus showed him his basic inner selfishness
(vv.22-23). He too needed forgiveness. He too needed a new birth
and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Let's not deceive ourselves. No matter how bad or how good we may
be, we all need Jesus.
-Herbert Vander Lugt
Naught have I gotten but what I received,
Grace has bestowed it since I have believed;
Boasting excluded, pride I abase -
I'm only a sinner saved by grace! -Gray
NO ONE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO SAVE HIMSELF;
NO ONE IS SO BAD THAT GOD CANNOT SAVE HIM.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 23 Feb 96 15:37:24
EID:1e90 20577ca0
MSGID: 1:207/212 40284828
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892C0E30
On (22 Feb 96) Dan Ceppa wrote to Karen Davis...
DC> That works, but how much did they pay for him? Not as much as the
DC> stupid Mariners are paying for Ken Griffy, that's for sure. (and
DC> that's also very obscene...)
I'm not sure at the moment who they got or how much they paid. They
needed a good right hander, as their only talent was southpawed.
Hubby just walked in - they didn't pay much for Ontiveros, at least.
KD> both guns after Benis or a *real* good lefthander] and should be able
DC> ^
DC> Not a typo? It would have made a good one!
Chuckle. No, I don't think so. Benis is a right handed pitcher, was with
Seattle last year.
DC> Saw a news story this morning on a woman coach of a boys' HS BB team
DC> that had her water break in the 3rd quarter... Is that considered
DC> an emergency?
Yup! :)
DC> Sounds like you are into sports.... If so, nothing wrong with that.
DC> What I object to is the enlargement of the old Roman Coliseum into
DC> placating the rubes.
I'm not as into it as Gary is, I've managed to develop a healthy ability
to follow what he's interested in, and vice versa.
DC> Ever stop to figure out how many _families_ could earn a reasonable
DC> living by splitting up $34 million dollars over the next 4 years?
I know... I know... :(
... Our Mission: To boldly stay at home and BBS!
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 23 Feb 96 15:41:20
EID:3ea3 20577d20
MSGID: 1:207/212 31fa4246
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B7
On (22 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> They weren't, because many had become legalistic and dogmatic, so
MH> that they didn't recognize God when he stood before them -- because
MH> he
MH> didn't fit their preconceived notions. That was exactly what Jesus
MH> criticized them for -- rejecting the truth in favor of their own pet
MH> ideas.
That's a cop out.
If they had become legalistic [and I don't argue that] they would have
recognized him immediately.
... "We could take in an old Steve Reeves movie." -- Frank
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 23 Feb 96 15:42:20
EID:fea4 20577d40
MSGID: 1:207/212 816e6575
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A0
On (22 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> I tried several times to come up with a flippant or humorous
MH> rejoinder to this, but I just can't. It's unmitigated ignorant
MH> bigotry on your
MH> part, and there's nothing funny about it. It's absolutely untrue, and
MH> motivated by raw hatred.
Consider it motivated by being fed up with the Religious Reich. Buchanan
[an idiot cretinist] winning in New Hampshire was the last straw.
I'm not going to put up with the very words for my belief system, and
that of atheists and pagans, being turned into dirty words while
Christian is undeservedly complimentary.
... I'm an absolute, off-the-wall fanatical moderate.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:50:26
EID:c027 20579640
MSGID: 1:207/212 27ce9899
REPLY: 1:271/460 312c3f30
On (22 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> They didn't crucify him.
KM> Who did?
The romans. In other words, the ones authorized to make legal judgements
like that. IF you believe the story, that is.
KD> Let me get with some of my Jewish correspondents and get a list of
KD> prophecies he didn't fulfill.
KM> You expect me to believe someone that does not believe in Christ?
You expect me to believe someone who does?
KD> That's what your Bible is. Period.
KM> That's your opinion, PERIOD. Your opinion does not make it so.
I've backed it up a multitude of times.
There is no more reason to believe it is true than the Mabinogion is
true.
... Ask them to list all 54 flavours, then order vanilla.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:51:54
EID:7fcd 20579660
MSGID: 1:207/212 cf056986
REPLY: 1:271/460 312c4391
On (22 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> I wouldn't be so sure about that....
Frankly, I don't care. I don't want to be with your god anyway. Spending
eternity with someone who hates me isn't exactly a wonderful thought.
KD> It's called fiction, Ken.
KM> That's your problem, you believe the Bible is fiction.
And it must be seen as such until it is demonstrated otherwise.
KM> whcih were in them: and they were judged every man according to thier
KM> works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the
KM> second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
KM> was cast into the lake of fire."
Fine. I'll tell him what an idiot he has been to my whole gender at that
point.
KD> Huh? He wants me to worship him and believe in him, and follow his laws,
KD> but isn't willing to take the trouble to demonstrate his EXISTENCE?
KM> He left us the scriptures, that's what you expected to believe.
Give up on the circular reasoning, Ken.
KM> Sin is not based on just he "big 10".
True, but I see no reason to focus on certain other ones.
KM> Disobediance is sin, every drive over the speed limit?
KM> Christ said if you lust in your heart you've already committed the
KM> sin. Put all these aside, the scriptures teach us that all have
KM> sinned.
I drive over the speed limit because it is a greater wrong to drive
unsafely.
I have not lusted in my heart after a man other than my husband since I
was married. Live with it. I have no need of any other man. Before
marriage God has to accept the biological needs of his creatures coming
forth.
I've only sinned if you get down to the nitty gritty little picky stuff
that is no more stressed than things you do every day.
KD> Huh? Men being the head of the house isn't a higher status?
KM> Not to me.
Time for the faq here, I guess. Being head of something is higher status
automatically.
KD> Speak to my point. If this is a prison, why am I not justified in being
KD> angry at being kept here permanently?
KM> This is not a prison to start with......
Then why was it a punishment for Adam and Eve?
KD> Oh yes... you'd thank a jailor for the food.
KM> Why not? Does it kill you to be polite?
I see no need to thank him. I might if he acted with similar politeness.
At least I'd know he EXISTED. And what god seems to be asking is more
than mere politeness.
KM> KM>> His Word is his evidence.
KD> Then give me evidence that it is his word.
KM> "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
Circular reasoning. I've heard it plenty of times. Was raised in a
churchgoing family and read the Bible many times. Was considered rather
devout as a young adolescent before I grew up and realized it was all a
sham.
KM> Wasn't a matter of being convinced. Even Pilot could not find anything
KM> wrong with what Christ said or did. That is why he wrote what he did
KM> above Christ on the cross. They were threatened by Christ, he was
KM> telling everyone how things were suppose to be. They, like some here,
KM> tried to twist everything around to use it against him. However, they
KM> were wrong, and plotted against him.
Get the spelling right - Pilate. And since you can't get that right, I
have no reason to credit your interpretation.
KD> Speak to the point.
KM> I did....
The earth was their jail. Their punishment for eating the fruit.
KM> That's why he sent his Son to die for us. His Son having no sin in his
KM> own life, could pay for our sins in just 3 days. After that, he had
to
KM> be released from death and hell, it could not hold him. Christ died
so
KM> that we could live, fun god? Maybe not, but he fixed the sins of the
KM> world, all one has to do is to have faith in him..
He obviously didn't fix them.
... I'm more humble than you are!!!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:21:23
EID:7fcd 20579aa0
MSGID: 1:207/212 527b11e3
On (22 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> He asks too much.
KM> To believe?
Yup. It is too much to ask this rational human being to believe in
something for which there is no evidence.
KD> The plants.
KM> Who created the plants?
No idea. I believe they developed from seeds. And before you continue
on, yes, I believe plant types developed from more primitive mosses etc.
Where we get to here is "turtles all the way down."
KD> Your Bible is that mythology.
KM> No, it's not.
Mythology is the supernatural folklore of a culture. Your Bible fits the
bill just perfectly.
... Ecky Ecky Ecky pTANG Bing whing prrn zhrrn-wup
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:03:49
EID:7fcd 20579860
MSGID: 1:207/212 7a1b7c14
REPLY: 1:271/460 312c4423
On (22 Feb 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Second - it occurs to me that her harm to me is not a sin by your god's
KD> book.
KM> Based on what?
Based on the fact that there is defense of corporal punishment of
children in the Bible. Based on the fact that there seems to be no
demand that it be kept to a reasonable level.
KM> I don't consider emotions a flaw, how we handle those amount is the
KM> character flaw. I've been jealous before, but I never tried to run
KM> anyone down with a car because of it.
And what did God threaten to do to the Jews with Moses because they made
the Golden Calf?
What did God do to every human but Noah and his family?
Sounds like he's not able to handle that emotion.
... "Rub her feet." - Lazarus Long
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: suff'rin
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:18:10
EID:67d8 20579a40
MSGID: 1:207/212 77c90145
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B439F
On (22 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> It is an act of extreme mercy and love. Nothing circular about it.
KD> Then why can't he do something we do every day?
MH> If someone killed your mother, then mockingly demanded you forgive
MH> him just before he killed your father, would you do it?
We're not talking about murder here, Michael, in most people's lives.
We're talking about little things, in some cases things that don't hurt
anyone else like sleeping with a person of the same gender.
MH> On the other hand, if he kills your mother and then begs your
MH> forgiveness, and you know he really is sorry for what he's done,
MH> could you forgive him without sacrificing the part of yourself that
MH> desires
MH> to see him punished?
I would probably still wish the standard legal procedure be found, and
that would give me closure.
Again, we're not talking about murder here. We're talking about
coveting.
... Elvis isn't dead, he's just pining for the fjords.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 23 Feb 96 02:01:23
EID:ddf3 20571020
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 312eb9b3
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 627db63e
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> Any ideas for us mere mortals
SA> as to where those gobbled messages are going?
JH> Ahhh... you want initiation into the Mysteries.
JH> Normally there is a fee for such priveleges, but just for you
JH> I'll only ask for a Love Gift (no checks) of $50.00 (US dollars).
Hmm...that price is a little steep. How about some homemade
chocolate pie? I have gotten some great recipe ideas from Lynda
lately...
JH> I can only make this offer for a very limited time, so please hurry.
JH> I don't need the money, but it's very important TO YOU that you
JH> establish your sincerity in a tangible form.
Tangible to who? I thought you were supposed to be dead...
Sue
... I don't have an attitude problem--it's supposed to be like this
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:7b95 20578b00
MSGID: 1:272/99 00145a14
(On 02-18-96 Michael Hardy replied to Rick Mcfarlane)
MH> Interesting note, though -- the word translated "create" in Genesis
MH> one means to make out of nothing. The word translated "create" in
MH> Genesis 2 is a different Hebrew word which means to form out of
MH> existing material.
Hmmm...obviously a piss poor translation...Hell, even *you* could do a
better job, apparently...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice.
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/10
* Origin: The Leading Edge (914) 888-4295 (1:272/99)
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:b24a 20578b00
MSGID: 1:272/99 00145a20
RS> If you haven't sent in your entry or you do not see your name on
RS> the list [and you know you're feeling left out], then by all
RS> means send me your entry!:
RS> - The Unofficial HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison List -
Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
I'm with you, on all counts 'cept the name...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... I can walk on water, but I stagger on alcohol.
ž CMPQwk 1.42 9044 ž
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/10
* Origin: The Leading Edge (914) 888-4295 (1:272/99)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Larry Jansen
|Sub: End Times!
|Date: 22 Feb 96 17:25:19
EID:bfc8 20568b20
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Larry Jansen > All : End Times!
LJ> I hope you realize that the international bankers are behind us being
LJ> in Bosnia.
I realize that you I.q. and your shoe size are very close
together...
LJ> Iraq and Iran are next on their agenda.
I'd rather have the Baked Alaska, myself...
LJ> "Too bad" that our "children" will have to die, so that they can
LJ> make more money, and enslave the world.
`Our "children"'? I wasn't aware that you could "reproduce".
LJ> All hail! Satan and his New World Order are upon us -- ez. 38, 39, 40;
LJ> rv. 20: 7-15.
Tell the truth...you were tossing off when you wrote this, weren't
you?
LJ> ! Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning?
...what a bunch of pud-pullers...
... Larry's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: information
|Date: 22 Feb 96 17:39:16
EID:6dd3 20568ce0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Michael Hardy > J.j. Hitt : information
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Porn objectifies the opposite sex.
JH> I've never understood this objection. What's the big deal about a
JH> medium treating people as objects? Art does it. Sports do it. Drama
JH> does it. Politics does it. Advertising and the popular media do it.
MH> And to an extent, it's wrong in those contexts too. But that's not
MH> the sum of my point. Porn objectifies people, but it also reduces the
MH> sex act to simple mechanics. The emotional angle is ignored, let alone
MH> the spiritual.
But for most of the animal kingdom, let alone the plant/insect
kingdoms (I know I probably shouldn't split the animal and the
insect, but I'm feeling kinda feverish right now...) there is NO
emotional or spiritual connection. Those are artificial states
associated, wrongly, with a simply biological function. I may say
"Oh, God" during a good orgasm, or while passing an impressive
stool, but I have yet to hear of any ape trained in ASL or any
parrot expressing those sentiments when in comprable situations.
MH> People are *not* merely animals, even though we share some
MH> characteristics with animals.
Bullshit. People like you just take yourself too seriously,
believe the crap that you're somehow special. Face it, you're no
more crucial to existence than a mosquito or an ameoba (sp?) and a
hell of a lot more destructive. If Nature ever just wiped us off
the planet and went on with things, there'd be no appreciable loss
associated with it. You _want_ to believe you're special, but
you're not.
MH> Porn debases humanity, the dignity of the human being.
Again, artificial constructs. Porn reveals the animal nature of
man and woman, and reduces us to our true level, which isn't the
level you want to be at.
MH> I say this from experience. I have had -- and still do have to some
MH> extent, though I fight it -- an interest in porn.
"Give yourself over to absolute pleasure, swim in the warm
waters of sins of the flesh . . . "
MH> I have seen plenty
MH> of hardcore, and it stimulates and repels me at the same time.
What it stimulates is your base nature, your animal self. What it
repels is the prudish wanking of a high brain that somehow thinks
it should be above such things.
MH> I have seen cumshots where two or three men ejaculate all over a
MH> woman's face and breasts. It is sickeningly animalistic.
Just like seeing a bunch of dogs around one bitch taking turns.
Ever to stop to think that among animals, a multiple of partners
garuntees variety in the gene pool and a greater chance for a
viable gamete?
MH> There is no soul to it. There is not even emotion to it.
Poor romantic, hopelessly lost in his myth . . .
MH> The people need not even know one another's names -- and they are
MH> performing the most intimate human interaction for an audience,
MH> people they don't know and who don't know them.
Or they may just want to get laid. Names are our invention, but at
times (like getting laid, realizing you shoes are on fire, or
during projectile vomiting) they just get in the way.
MH> It makes a mockery of intimacy.
it just goes to show where we actually live, animal-wise. And a
lot of us think higher of ourselves than we need to.
... Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: All
|Sub: Pantheacon Stuff 1/4
|Date: 23 Feb 96 02:23:44
EID:02d9 205712e0
I just got back from San Jose, California's, 2nd annual Pantheacon,
repository for the pagan, the weird, the failed trekkies, the outcasts,
and the decidedly religiously odd. It was fun, even just as a spectator
sport. I brought back something you might find amusing, in a
pagan-religious sense, from a wonderful little magazine that was
anonymously put together and distributed (because it rocks the
acceptable self-image of paganism?) called The Magical Flame. It has
no credits, no contact info, and no copyright. Enjoy!
A FIELD GUIDE TO NEOPAGANDOM
Is this the first time you've seen this many pagans together?
Well, you're in for a deflowering, young earth-worshiper, and you've
come to the right place. However, you should realize that there are
many, many types of pagans. We old farts just had to keep making
the rounds until we either found a group that wouldn't kick us out
or founded our own clique. But now, progress has brought us many
different flavors to choose from.
1. BRIGHT EYED NOVICE.
You just read this cool book about a religion where there's
_goddesses_ and gods, and they meet outside, in nature, instead of
in some scary old building, and you want to know where to sign up.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Mispronounces god/dess names, has to think a
moment about which is widdershins and which is deosil. Has a shiny
new athame (rhymes with "A-frame").
2. I REMEMBER WOODSTOCK.
Did I ever tell you about the time I dropped with Kerry Wendell
Thornley? Or maybe it was Robert Anton Wilson. I was pretty
loaded. Anyway, it was somebody with three names. Or was it three
people who had one name?
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Luxuriant gray locks, listens very intently,
knows dish about people you've read about.
3. TREEHUGGING NATURE SPIRIT.
Prize possession: one of Judi Barry's old tree spikes.
Simultaneously believes in universal love for humanity AND returning
the planet to a pristine, uncorrupted state. Apt to remove clothes
and fondle the shrubbery at a moment's notice. Can discuss compost
in detail.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: No meat, no fragrance, no leather, no
eco-exploitative garments, no animal tested cosmetics, no cigarette
smoke, no drugs, no TV, no car, no corporations, yet very tolerant.
4. ANAL-RETENTIVE CEREMONIAL.
Book collection actually holds up the ceiling in places. Is
trying to learn how to speak Greek, Latin, and Hebrew, all at once.
Does "workings" instead of "rituals." Has a web site that all in
Enochian.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Won't go anywhere without a book. Dresses
according to planetary coordinates, or according to what Mom finds
on sale at Wal-Mart.
5. WOMYNCENTRIC GYNOCRAT.
A man's shadow crossed her altar once and she spent three
months purifying it. She'll have no wands in her chalice, thank
you. No boys allowed in her full moon club.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Tiny axes, just the right size for amputating
a penis, are a favored symbol and often hang conveniently from her
body parts. When a man approaches she rolls her eyes and stops
talking.
6. IS THIS WHERE THE BIG, SMART WOMEN HANG OUT?
Oh, they're so nice. All that warm, round, sex positive flesh
. . . and you can actually carry on a conversation with them
between orgasms . . . pant, drool.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Cute. Horny. Will recite love poetry to you
under the full moon. Likes to do it outdoors. Often destitute.
All too few of them.
7. HEY BOSS, I'D LIKE TO TAKE FEBRUARY SECOND AS A PERSONAL DAY.
Has an entire chapter in their Book of Shadows concerned with
spells for purifying the work place. Doesn't mind working on
Christmas, especially if there's overtime involved. Quit being
overtly pagan at work since getting canned by that closet born
again, yet still refuses to say "Merry Christmas."
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Can assume a properly smiley work persona at
the drop of a hat. Constantly glances around the room anxiously
looking for co-workers and their spies. Non-distinctive hair, no
conspicuous tattoos.
(Continued Next Post)
... You may be a monster-truck pagan if your anointing oil is 30 weight.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: All
|Sub: Pantheacon Stuff 2/4
|Date: 23 Feb 96 02:23:54
EID:0229 205712e0
(Continued From Previous Post)
8. HI DIDDLY DEE, IT'S A PAGAN CELEBRITY.
At conventions, stays on the hotel floor that requires a
special key for elevator access. Lurks around hallway corners
eavesdropping in order to see if name is being mentioned.
Arrives in helicopter especially for ritual. Never seen
unaccompanied by beefy Amazonian bodyguards.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Always has plenty of books to autograph
and will personally sell them to you at a slight discount from
cover price. When you ask them how it's going, they hand you a
press release. Seems vaguely afraid of anyone they don't already
know.
9. CHILDE OV KAOS.
Can name seventeen different industrial bands without pausing
to think. Knows what a Prince Albert is. Sleeps in black leather
jammies. Painted on their jacket, engraved in their flesh or boldly
displayed as jewelry is an emblem which resembles a combination of
a corporate logo and an arcane sigil. If you don't know what it
is, they'll think you're a dweeb.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Easy to picture as a bike messenger or
alternative musician, difficult to visualize as a schoolteacher or
research assistant, impossible to imagine as a TV anchor or bank
president. Personally feels that if no panicky headlines appear
the day after you do a ritual, you screwed up.
10. SCARY DEVIL WORSHIPER.
Won't go skyclad. Rarely smiles, except for in a smug, knowing
way which insinuates you are an ignorant peasant worthy of conquer.
Secretly enjoys Rush Limbaugh and The Bell Curve. Fascinated with
Nazis. Probably wouldn't hurt a fly; yet they want you to think
they are capable of vast destruction.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Lots of black and red. Men like goatees,
women favor eye liner. If you see several of them getting tanked in
the hotel bar, it would be wise to stay far away.
11. CROWLEY-IN-A-PAST-LIFE.
Every magickal gathering has at least one
Crowley-in-a-past-life, along with several variants along the lines
of Gerald Gardner, Tituba, Morgan Le Fay. Many of them were
abducted by aliens recently, or have had disturbing dreams rich
with symbolism which they will tell you, in great detail.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Look for the intense gleam in eyes, the
backpack rattling with various psychiatric medicines, the garments
that were clearly designed and tailored in outer space.
12. RAVIN' PAGAN.
Young and psychedelic. Refuses to do boring Eurocentric
rituals and prefers deities from sunny climes with many interesting
local plants. Can say "Ayahuasca" ten times, fast. Never goes
anywhere without a ritual drum.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Colors that hurt your eyes unless you've
taken ecstasy. Bloodshot eyes, peaceful smile, can deliver long
quotes from Terrance McKenna.
13. FAIRIE QUEEN.
Is he a he? Is she a she? Are they a couple, or are those two
a couple, or are all four of them a quadruple? If the answers to
these questions could upset or disturb you, best stay away. If,
however, the answers to these questions seem overly nosy and
judgmental, you might have a real good time.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: When you look at this person, does every
sex act you've ever experienced in your life seem hopelessly
vanilla? If so, the congratulations -- you have found a faerie.
14. HIGH EPISCOPAGAN.
Do their rituals have a script, a choreographer, a lighting
director, an orchestra and last three hours? It's a High
Episcopagan! It can memorize pages and pages of Olde Englishe, it
has more ritual outfits than most people have socks, it considers
its main pagan influences to be Gerald Gardner, Judy Garland, and
Busby Berkeley.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Book of Shadows exceeds five volumes (or
five megs of hard drive space). Knows every note of "Carmina
Burana." Better not ask about that 18th century seed pearl trim on
their ritual hat unless you've got an hour to spare.
(Continued On Next Post)
... You may be a monster truck pagan if a sweatlodge is a trailer in June.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: All
|Sub: Pantheacon Stuff 3/4
|Date: 23 Feb 96 02:24:04
EID:c278 20571300
(Continued From Previous Post)
15. FUNDAMENTAPAGAN.
If it's in a book, it must be true. If it's in an old book, it
must be _really_ true. If it's in an old book that was supposedly
handed down from oral transmission from people who couldn't read,
then it must _really_ be _way_ true. Has hissy fits if anyone
shows up at a circle wearing a watch, glasses, or other mechanical
assistance. Believes that anyone who has never sustained
themselves from their own land, using only primitive agricultural
methods, dare not call themselves a pagan.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Gnashes teeth when the old "Crowley ghosted
Gardner's Books" argument comes up. Goes around correcting
everyone's gaelic/old norse/latin/babylonian.
16. DANCES WITH BUNNYRABBITS.
Uses animal symbolism to express nearly all opinions and
feelings. Charter member of PETA. Thinks meat eaters should be
publicly executed. Has many, many pets. Has a spirit animal.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Not counting the pagan his/herself, how many
animals can you find in this picture? if the count surpasses five
(including critters found on tattoos, jewelry, garments and
undies), you have found a Worshiper of Beasties.
17. PRIESTS AND PRIESTESSES OF POLITIKAL KORRECTNESS.
Analyzes everything they hear for
sexist-racist-homophobic-imperialist-Eurocentric content without
paying attention to what is actually being said. Believes in
personal liberty -- everyone has the right to be overbearing,
dogmatic and holier-than-thou; not just the religious right.
Incredibly boring and annoyingly righteous at the same time.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Beady, hyper alert little eyes are constantly
in motion, waiting for someone to say or do something bad.
Constantly has loud and attention-attracting fits when confronted
with everyday things such as advertising and corporate franchises.
Rudimentary sense of humor rarely activated.
18. OUR LADY OF INTENSE SUFFERING.
Is constantly persecuted. You are probably persecuting her
right now, you just don't realize it. Became a pagan because she
decided it was the most persecuted religion of all. Can't enjoy
anything because it would be selfish to have fun when so many are
suffering.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Tales of woe. Even less of a sense of humor
than #17. Bristles whenever you use the words "masochism" or
"whining."
19. I AM NOT SPOCK (at the moment).
Knows at least three filks about Cthulu and at least forty Star
Trek jokes. Has found a clever way to create simple furniture from
stacks of science fiction paperbacks. Can name ninety different
kinds of space ship.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Two-fisted drinking style. many cryptic
buttons, badges, patches and other insignia. Too smart for their
own good.
20. HET-CASE.
Insist that they aren't homophobic; they just think that
paganism is about a god and a goddess and they do it, and what
could be more simple than that, and it just doesn't work right if
you try it any other way.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Signifiers of het-dom such as long, manicured
nails and wreaths of flowers (on females _only_; the males have
big, bushy beards instead). Are secretly afraid gays and/or
lesbians are dying to jump their tender hetero bones.
21. NORSE CODE.
Heroic and vikingly, these pagans often get into trouble with
festival organizers due to their fondness for running around
carrying a battle-axe in one hand and a full mead horn in the
other. They do throw the best parties, but if you're a wimp, you
are expressly not invited.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Look out for the large and foreboding persons
wearing runes, with many pounds of amber dangling from their necks.
(Continued on Next Post)
... You may be a monster truck pagan if Autumn is the Burning Time.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: All
|Sub: Pantheacon Stuff 4/4
|Date: 23 Feb 96 02:23:20
EID:03c9 205712e0
(Continued from Previous Post)
22. PENTACLES, INC.
This is where all the people who are into paganism come, right?
So how come they aren't buying my hand-forged Venus of Willendorf
necklaces -- they come in silver or gold, and each one has a
genuine cubic zirconium belly button. Would you like a reading?
Will that be Visa or Master Card?
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Business cards feature little embossed
pentagrams. Rarely leaves the dealer's room and can't believe
there are so many jewelry sellers present.
23. MONSTER TRUCK PAGAN.
Can grow their own food, build their own house, sew their own
clothes, homeschool their children and brew their own organic
hooch. Are looking forward to the bleak, post-apocalyptic world
postulated by the environmentalists as they can't wait to run amok
through the country, worshipping ancient gods, blowing up strip
malls and rutting on the divider line of every interstate.
DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Resourceful, clever and very well versed in
the U. S. Constitution. Eats meat with visible twitches of
pleasure. is aware that primitive religions have nothing to do
with crystals, Atlantis or unicorns.
... You may be a monster truck pagan if cakes & wine means tailgate party.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 218/809 907 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 203/289 15 270/101 218/801
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 02:30:09
EID:d009 205713c0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Kenneth Mcabee > Fredric Rice : About Staal!
FR> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
KM> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
Oh, so Kenneth Mcabee is the Lord my God now? My, we _do_ put on
airs, don't we?
... You may be a monster truck pagan if CAW is what the crows say.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 23 Feb 96 02:34:18
EID:ca7d 20571440
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
David Worrell > Robert Jackson : Al Schroeder
DW> 21 Feb 96 00:10, Robert Jackson wrote to Norbert Sykes:
NS>> ... Uglk u bagronk sha pushdug Asmodeus-glob b#bhosh skai.
RJ> Two questions: What language? What's the translation? :)
DW> It looks like Stupid to me... Maybe Azzie'll understand it better than
DW> he does sarcasm.
Robert:
Sorry I didn't respond to this right away, this is literally the
first time I've seen your post asking what this was. I've been
suspecting that some of the FIDO packets have been getting eaten in
transistion, but this seems to cap it. Anyone else who sent me
mail or a message that wasn't responded to: I'm not being coy, I
just didn't get it. Resend it.
As to what this was, it's the untranslated curse of Saruman (in
Black Speech, the defiled Quenya) in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.
I figured a fake curse for a fake Satanist would be appropriate.
};)
... Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen! Fenna Nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Don Ward
|Sub: Vote for Rapture.
|Date: 23 Feb 96 03:53:35
EID:1390 20571ea0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Dan Ceppa > Don Ward : Are you a LACKEY?
-> On 02-18-96 06:08, Don Ward got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> ... "The creation occured 404 BC, NOT 4004 BC!": Don Ward
I was discussing the 4004 BCE date with someone over the weekend
and it suddenly dawned on both of us that it would place the
millenium squarely in September/October this year, depending. So I
make a motion that we encourage as many Fundamentalists/Xtians to
Rapture (it _is_ a verb, like rupture, isn't it? };)...) ASAP so
that we can get the place cleaned up and have a decent holiday
season . . .
Whee-eeew, 1,000 years of quiet peaceful contemplation ahead . . .
... You may be a monster truck pagan if cowan means poor white trash.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison
|Date: 23 Feb 96 04:03:49
EID:586d 20572060
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Michael Hardy > Ryan Shaw : HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to All <=-
RS> If you haven't sent in your entry or you do not see your name on the
RS> list [and you know you're feeling left out], then by all means send
me
RS> your entry!:
RS> - The Unofficial HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison List -
RS> User Stance Favorite Poison
RS> ------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> The Late J.J. Hitt Death Spell Test Site Sugar-laden teeth rotting
RS> cola
RS> Marilyn Burge Freethinker Sutter Homes' White
RS> Zinfandel Ryan Shaw atheist draught Guinness
RS> Steve Quarrella Atheist Creemore Ale or any
RS> decent porter
RS> John Prewett Sister Lover/Bitch the blood of Christ
RS> Don Martin atheist Lagers, porters and ales
RS> from small breweries
RS> Preston G. Simpson agnostic Malted battery acid
RS> (a/k/a Coke) The ONE, true fag! High balls!
RS> (what else?) :) Lynda Bustilloz Christian/"catty bitch" Coffee,
RS> high-octane Kath. Wintersnight Witch coffee w\c&s,
RS> mead Thomas DelCano Pagan Pervert Fresh Menstrual Blood
RS> Kevin McKenzie Tired Snapple
MH> Michael Hardy Xian and proud of it 2 parts IBC root
MH> beer, 1 part cream
Norbert Sykes Totally self-interested Jolt cola and
chocolate-covered
expresso beans
... You may be a monster truck pagan if deosil is your bedroom window.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:5da0 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 134fce50
MH>-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> MH> BK> What do you beleive with regards to reincarnation?
MH> MH> I don't believe in reincarnation, but I did in a previous life.
:)
MH> BK> Not bad:) Seriously tho, do you?
MH> No. What would be the point? Religions which believe in reincarnation
MH> typically believe that we are supposed to learn something new and
MH> become better people each time around, or suffer the karmic
MH> repercussions of our past life. Well, simple obsevation will show you
MH> people aren't especially better now than they ever were.
Mike, all that indicates is that there is always another fool in the
pipeline. :)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Dances with Wolves--stomp *YIPE* grrrrrrrrrrr....
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: spontaneous abortion
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:d9de 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 85c7c590
MH> EH> I dis-agree. If you look deeper into the facts, I'd bet you will
MH> EH> find that the majority of those unborn infants have mothers who
abuse
MH> EH> drugs, alcohol, smoke, etc... while pregnant.
MH> LB> Wrong answer. Most spontaneous abortions occur so early in the
MH> LB> pregnancy that the woman doesn't even know she IS pregnant -- and
MH> LB> sometimes doesn't even know she's aborted; only that she's had a
MH> LB> particularly heavy and painful menstrual period. They occur for
any
MH> LB> number of reasons -- failure to properly attach to the uterine wall,
a
MH> LB> malformation of the fertilized egg that
MH> LB> makes it completely unviable, etc, etc, etc. It's completely natural
MH> LB> and not brought on by ANYTHING the woman has done -- although kind
MH> LB> hearted souls like you are not above making her FEEL like it's their
MH> LB> fault.
MH> Except that smoking, drinking to excess and using drugs when you're
not
MH> ill *are* self-destructive behaviors. The woman doesn't have to know
MH> she's pregnant to damage the fetus, while doing things that also damage
MH> herself.
Mike, you are out in left field with this. A woman doesn't have to do
anything to loose baby after baby. You are vicious if you claim that it
is her fault. Women were miscarrying long before tobacco came into
common usage. I would suggest that you do a little research before you
make any more nakedly ignorant and markedly nasty comments like the
above.
MH> The point isn't that it's the woman's fault ... the point is that God
MH> isn't aborting babies, as Preston alleged.
My, should we be grateful that you don't consider it our fault? Perhaps
you would advocate keeping women in chains to keep those babies safe?
And then, who would you blame when spontaneous abortions just kept
happening?
MH> As I read the response, Eric wasn't blaming the woman so much as he
MH> was absolving God (as if God needs our absolution).
I won't accept the blame for my child's death to absolve your vicious
predator of a volcano destruction deity. If he's yours, you keep him.
I don't want anything to do with him or his self righteous,
sanctimonious followers.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...enjoy being an arrogant coward for Jesus?-P. Simpson
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:d228 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ccbe5bd8
MH> I was 14 when Ford ran.
I was just old enough to vote. If I remember myself correctly, I mostly
voted for him because I felt sorry for him.
MH> KW> youth and idealism (clutching my brand new voters registration).
The
MH> KW> GOP platform of greed and fear literally nauseates me.
MH> Aw, it is not either. That's simplistic propaganda. Both parties have
MH> their good points and weak points, but I reject the notion that the
MH> Republical platform includes either greed or fear. Some individual
MH> Republicans may suffer from those vices -- just as some Democrats do
--
MH> but it's not the party philosophy.
I'm not too fond of the Democrats, mind you. As for 'greed and fear',
what the hell do you call the Republican's constant xenophobia,
ownership by big business, and hate tactics. Hell, they can't even keep
from mobbing and attacking their own. Hearing them howl about how
'welfare mothers' are going to take all of 'your' money, while they hand
out huge corporate welfare checks to their owners is more than I can
take. Maybe it's not the party philosophy, but then, Repulican'ts don't
seem to have much to do with the party philosophy.
MH> It's just that people who disagree with the party philosophy seek to
MH> portray it in the most negative and emotional terms possible. I might
MH> equally well say that the Democrats run on greed (give me as much of
MH> your money as I can tax out of you) and fear (vote for me or those --
MH> {shudder} -- *Christians* might gain a little influence.)
Those {shudder} xtians have a little to much influence these days.
Better that then (give me as much of your money as I can tax out of you,
and the rich guys that are paying me under the table won't have to pay a
dime) and (poor people are taking all the goodies, starve them into
submission), not to mention (people on minimum wage don't need more
money, but congress needs a 50% pay raise to maintain their standard of
living).
But don't worry, Mike. All of the middle class assholes who think that
the GOP is going to make them rich will be down here with the little
people. The Corporations got a taste of that last xmas.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Gods: Betcha can't believe in just one.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: churches
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:923c 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 8483e6fd
AS> Speaking of which...I am posting from a different board, but still
AS> within Nashville. If you see this, please respond.
Al, this is the first thing I have seen from you in a long time. And
I'm glad to see it. :)
I am sorry to hear of the fire, but I am more than anything glad to hear
that your losses were only material and that your wife and boys are
unhurt.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Linda Whitten
|Sub: Re: Samhain old shit/4
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:0bab 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c78088bf
LW> > My comments were based on my own tradition. Queening is done with
LW> > the whole coven in an afternoon ceremony, while the Croning is done
LW> > sometime later with just the women, at the dark of the moon.
LW>I don't know anyone who has undergone a Queening, though I probably qualify.
I've seen and\or assisted at a few, although I don't quite qualify yet
myself.
LW> > Oh, yes. I've also taken part in a ritual where a 'Queening' was
LW> > used instead of the Motherhood for a gay woman who had no intention
LW> > of bearing children. That was a Dianic coven who saw the trine as
LW> > Amazon, Queen, and Crone.
LW>That's a very interesting Trine. It does makes sense to me, though.
I always felt that they went a bit overboard with the 'no male deities'
or 'energy' business. I prefer to work in more balanced polarities.
They did do some interesting work based on straight\gay, young\old, and
so forth.
LW> > It's no wonder that the xtians find us confusing .
LW> Yes, indeed! Keep them on their toes it does!
Linda, you have gifted me with the most amazing vision of Pat B. in pink
satin toe shoes. I thank you.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * (A)bort, (R)etry, (S)mack the friggin' thing!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: An interesting situation
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:109a 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ed65feb1
JH> JH>> Unfortunately, they don't make oven cleaner in tiny purse
JH> JH>> and pocket sized cans.
JH> KW> Cologne works great. And if you are real lucky, you can
JH> KW> blind the bastard. The cheaper the scent the better--the
JH> KW> higher the ratio of Isopropyl alcohol to volatile oils.
JH> You can use IPA if you want to, I'm partial to sodium hydroxide.
You are missing the insult value. Cheap perfume is sweet, and strong,
and making a mugger\rapist smell like your desperate old maid is sure to
give him a complex. Blinding him and making him smell like Sadie
Hawkins is even better then just blinding him. Either he get's caught,
and after they finish flushing his eyes they stick him in the local lock
up smelling that way, or he doesn't get caught, and his buddies get a
good whiff of him.
Either way, he's fucked.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * -I am not young enough to know everything-
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:5130 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b441a23b
JH> JB>> KW> Excuse my naive ignorance, but what did he consider a
JH> JB>> KW> S&M theme? China whips? Stoneware ball gags?
JH> JB>>I was afraid to ask. But he did want figurines, or
JH> JB>>'anything' along that line, 'as long as it has an S&M theme'.
JH> KW> Bound slave girl salt and pepper shakers, I'd guess.
JH>
JH> That WOULD sell!
We'll display them on the shelf right next to that light up plastic
jesus.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * .. Hmph! Seriousness! Sobriety! A Jedi craves these not!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: haggis vs. food
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:9991 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 517e1b04
JH> KW> Although to do stoved potatoes right, you need clean sea
JH> KW> water.
JH> Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. Might as well require
JH> clean sewage.
Remember, these are people who eat haggis voluntarily. By 'clean'
sea water the recipe means 'away from the port'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Don't dispute death unless you've lived through it."
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Satanista, no! Pindeho, s
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:7a63 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 38f5c461
JH> KW> Or do you think that it is something that Gardener added?
JH> JH>> Beyond a reasonable doubt.
JH> KW> Now the question becomes: Was it Gardener or Vallente? :)
JH> KW> She wrote most of his ritual.
JH> There I draw a complete blank. I'm admittedly not as well read
JH> on Gardener as I would like.
Maybe you didn't recognize it because off the top of my head, I mangled
the spelling. It's Valiente, Doreen Valiente. She admits that she is
the author of the wording of a good deal of Gardnerian ritual, but
claims that the basic framework was already in place and very old when
she was initiated by Gardener.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Facts are stupid things." -- Ronald Reagan
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Why
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:a52e 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 91e33c0e
JH> JH>> Just how the rituals were performed is left to the
JH> JH>> imagination, but I suspect it was a case of JH>> nudge, nudge> "Tits? Tits? What tits? I don't see no tits.
JH> JH>> Do you see any tits?"
JH> KW> J.J., or they mutually agreed that the baring of the left
JH> KW> breast was not necessary, as there was no dispute that the
JH> KW> person being initiated had tits.
JH> But that would interfere with poking the blindfolded candidate
JH> in the chest with the pointy end of the compass (a very important
JH> part of the ritual).
Well, in her latest novel, Katherine Kurtz has a woman initiated into a
revolutionary American Lodge. She handles that point by having one of
the more stable of her characters point out that a layer of thin muslim
isn't going to be much protection against the compass. After all, they
don't bare their backs to the sword blade behind them.
JH> One has to remember that from the 16th to the 18th century the great
JH> majority of lodges met in taverns. The rituals (in my opinion, of
JH> course) are simply the evolutionary end result of elaborate
JH> practical jokes played in bars. Concider especially the third degree
JH> ritual where the blindfolded candidate is knocked down and rolled
JH> up in a rug, which they then pick up and run around the room with.
JH> That isn't anything but poorly coreographed slapstick.
Oh, yes, the 'surprise' after the initiate thinks that it is all over.
J.J., the whole point of that little exercise is to reenact the murder
of Hiram Abiff. I have been told that the initiation into the Shrine
(32nd degree) is nothing but every practical joke that the members can
think up. Do you have any info on the 32nd degree initiation?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Go forth and hassle all nations."
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: hi
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:df1c 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f57b3b46
JH> KW> Because many of them insist on shoving Christ down our
JH> KW> throats.
JH> And those that don't still think their beliefs are due our
JH> "respect". Though Xians are not alone in this insistance. They
JH> think that because their silly shit is called a religion it should
JH> be treated differently from other forms of silly shit.
Now, J.J., didn't you know? They have the 'one true' silly shit.
JH> Sorry, but if the Emperor is walking down the street buckass
JH> naked, I reserve the right to giggle.
Or stare in awe. It depends on the Emperor.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "God has no religion"--Mahatma Gandhi
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:1e0a 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4502a0e0
JH> KW> Sheer defiance, as far as I can tell. Five years ago I was
JH> KW> hoping that the popularization of Rap would kill it. No
JH> KW> such luck . I don't even turn on the radio anymore.
JH> Ugh... tell me about it. It may come as a suprise to some on this
JH> echo, but I am a bit of a fan of "Gospel" music (NOT whitebread
JH> "church" music, but the good times foot stomping stuff that Rock
JH> and Roll and the Blues evolved from).
Now, I am fond of old Chicago, gin drinking blues. A friends father has
some 78's that are fabulous (including one of Gershwin playing Rhapsody
in Blue).
JH> Unfortunately, Rap (like the creeping cancer that it is) has invaded
JH> that medium as well. Seems like I can't listen for more than 20
JH> minutes before a Gospel-Rap (just replace "motherfucker" with
JH> "Jesus") song comes on.
J.J., just be patient. This too will pass. They've started using it in
commercials, soon they will be making muzak out of it, and then it will
be dead.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Good morning" is an opinion, not greeting.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:48dd 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 26c31b34
MG> KW> I remember the old days before they had the spring loaded
MG> KW> lancette holders. There were a few times when I
MG> KW> thought the tech had managed to lodge the damn thing in the
MG> KW> bone.
MG>When they first came out, we were testing them on ourselves. One moron
in the
MG>lab placed his finger above the guard instead of below it. this caused
the
MG>needle to pierce the skin and lodge in his bone.
MG>Some people are just born to be religious fanatics.
That sounds like one of those round ones . Bear uses a
Softouch, one of the better ones around. The techs at the local blood
bank don't like to use any of the lancette holders. They just twist the
top off and go for maximum damage.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "I asked what you knew, not what you believed." - MacLeod
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:9247 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0a0ecaec
JB>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> KW> Judith, you may have finally found a use for Jim Staal. Did your
JB> KW> customer want miniatures?
JB>Great idea. A line of S&M tie tacks, cuff links and matching nipple rings.
JB>
Just make up a set for Wilbur. It'll probably be the hardest that she's
ever seen him.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "I hope for your sake you are initiating a mating ritual."
-
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: I'M BACK
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:4392 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 46f9b767
JB>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Blanche Nonken <=-
JB> KW> one would be perfectly happy to substitute a Goo Cake for the oreos.
;)
JB> KW> Or we could have a bake sale for 'love offerings' out side of Judith's
JB> KW> tent.
JB>Could we use the chocolate covered potato chips for communion?
I's not 'communion', and I don't see any reason why not. Chocolate
covered potato chips strike me as a perfectly reasonable symbol of the
world's gifts.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "I think not," said Descartes -- and promptly disappeared
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:8cf7 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6e912271
DW>16 Feb 96 17:32, Kevin D. Mckenzie wrote to Marilyn Burge:
DW> KM> That's a remarkably stupid attitude, IMO. If/when I get married,
I
DW> KM> want to marry a friend, an equal, not a puppet.
DW>There's a lot to be said for puppets, though.
Don't tell me, David. Now you have a thing for Lambchop.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Is that seat saved?" "No, but we're praying for it."
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:9b24 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 22e65e78
DW>16 Feb 96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael Hardy:
DW> KW> much self respect to vote for any of the republicans. Hell, the
last
DW> KW> time I voted for a repulican't was when Ford ran.
DW>"Middle aged mommy type" my ass. You're ancient. :P
No...but I'm getting there. :)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Let them eat shit."-N. Gingrich
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Southern Men
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:9158 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a78bdd25
DW>16 Feb 96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to David Worrell:
DW> DW> KW>> You're *so* smart .
DW> DW>> Stop that. Yer gonna get me excited again.... ;)
DW> KW> Now, that doesn't seem hard to do.
DW>Psst! Katherine! I'm male - it isn't too hard to get any of us excited.
;)
David, you are beginning to remind me of that monkey they once had on
the Tonight Show, the one that took a liking to Carson's ear.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Not a morning person' doesn't even begin to cover it!
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Homocrystal sextants.
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:abfa 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f0c85436
PS> PS>Kerosene is also too good for him.
PS> KW> Now, now, Preston. We don't want to immolate him, we just want
him to
PS> KW> pull his head out and look around.
PS>No, no. *You* don't want to immolate him. Me, I like hot dogs roasted
PS>over an open fire.
We were talking about ticks, sweeting. Your way, the head stays buried
and the infection spreads.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Quick, Jesus -- to the Godcave!" - Hector Plasmic
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: ONE LAST COMMENT 01/
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:09db 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 33df2b39
PS> PS>You know why manhole covers are round, don't you?
PS> KW> Because if they were square some idiot child would find a way to
drop
PS> KW> them through the whole.
PS>Yup. And we still have an occasional problem here in Memphis with some
PS>nut taking the lids off to do work under the street and forgetting to
PS>put the damned thing back on, to the consternation of traffic.
The major traffic problem we have here are the flocks of cars with
Jaurez plates. They, uh, come here to live but keep their vehicles
registered in Mexico to avoid having to pay road tax, insurance, or the
fee to get the car inspected (that's assuming it would pass-a lot
wouldn't). Hell, they even get big savings on tickets, the cops don't
bother, because the tickets don't ever get payed.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * 'The religious Right are a bunch of NUTS!'-Goldwater
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Abortion
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:19e7 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3b14e258
PS> KW> Preston, It's not safe to tease a chocolaholic. There are several
of
PS> KW> us on this echo. Now, who are these paragons, and do they do mail
PS> KW> order?
PS> I know not.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:ed4c 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1ae3e695
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled "THE 10
PS>COMMANDMENTS"
PS> PS>And me just having taken an oath of celibacy. Pity.
PS> KW> Do we get to hold you to that?
PS>Who knows? The spirit can move one in interesting ways.
Oh, I see. You've taken a vow to be celibate until you get an opening
to be otherwise.
PS> PS> KW> They wondered what became of the Neanderthal.
PS> PS>If they wonder at all.
PS> KW> Dim little buggers, eh? Ever notice that cast of features
PS> KW> shows up with permanently hunched shoulders and a nice rounded spine.
PS> KW> Trashy folk.
PS>Small, beady little eyes with no spark of intelligence. It makes me wonder
PS>about why I care about the species.
Well, that particular breed of backwoods man makes it clear that some of
them did, indeed, *descend* from the apes. Take a look at the Wet
Lizard.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * (A)bort, (R)etry, (S)mack the friggin' thing!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Pink?
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:1cc3 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 71d4a2ec
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Katherine Wintersnight mumbled "Pink?"
PS> KW> I do remember wondering, at about the age of 6 or 7 (this would
be mid
PS> KW> 60's), what all the fuss about communism was if they had to lock
their
PS> KW> people in to keep them. But, then, at that age I thought Radio
Free
PS> KW> Europe meant that the Europeans didn't have any radios.
PS>Someone should have realized that Communism is great--for utopian societies.
PS>Anywhere else, Communism sucks because of people's innate tendency to
be
PS>people.
Classic communism is great, ants, bees, and other hive minded creatures.
Humans may be pack animals, but they sure don't do the hive thing
very well. All the other forms of communism boil do to 'I'm in charge,
and you are a slave'. That includes xtianity.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * -I am not young enough to know everything-
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:37e2 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 15a0706e
RB>KW> You sound like Bear. He gets these little thingies that he slips
over
RB>KW> the barrel of his pens to improve his grip.
RB>Oh, you said 'pens'. Never mind.
Honey, I've heard that wrapping it in a towel or washcloth will help a
bit.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * .. Hmph! Seriousness! Sobriety! A Jedi craves these not!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Who cares?
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:90c0 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org fdf73a85
SR> LW> Would you like to make a $50.00 donation to the ministry so
I
SR> LW> can register this copy
SR>Another jeezoid begging for money so his gawds won't condemn him for
eternity.
SR>But the palty $50 fee is peanuts compared to the lifetime of savings
he'll be
SR>dropping into his church-master's coffers.
Steve, what he's saying is 'Give it to me, or I will steal it in the
name of Jesus'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...A Pagan family is a loving family.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:6937 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 9c029bd2
Elemental Invocation
Winged One,
Spirit of Air
Your children invite you here.
Come on the winds of the Sunrise,
Give us your vision so clear.
You are the gentle spring breezes.
You are the glory of flight.
Winged One
Spirit of Air
Keep us wise through our rite.
Fierce One
Spirit of Fire
Your children invite you here.
Come with your blazing Noon passion,
Banish all sorrow and fear.
You are the flickering candle.
You are the bonfire bright.
Fierce One
Spirit of Fire
Keep us brave through our rite.
Swift One
Spirit of Water
Your children invite you here.
Come on the waves of the Sunset,
Bring to us joy and good cheer.
You are the well of deep comfort.
You are the crashing waves' height.
Swift One
Spirit of Water
Keep us sure through our rite.
Hooved One
Spirit of Earth
Your children invite you here.
Come from the mountains of Midnight,
With new strength and vigor appear.
You are the field of our pleasures.
You are the source of our might.
Hooved One
Spirit of Earth
Keep us strong through our rite.
Winged One........................................................................................
Fierce One................................................................
Swift One.........................................
Hooved One............
Keep us pure through our rite !
Elemental Dismissal
Wise One..............................................................................................
Brave One.....................................................................
Sure One...............................................
Strong One.....................
We bid you now hail and farewell.
Go by the Powers that brought you,
Go by the un weaving spell.
As the bright pentagrams fade,
Depart ere the circle is gone.
Winged One..........................................................................................
Fierce One................................................................
Swift One.........................................
Hooved One............
As we say, be it done.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Christian: a throughly unhappy man who sees only evil
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:dc3c 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 37f22537
MB>On (17 Feb 96) Masochistic Maiden wrote to Katherine Wintersnight...
MB>KW> Check periodically to see if fermentation is finished, this will
MB>KW> takeabout ten days to two weeks. Fermentation is finished when the
MB>KW> mead is no longer bubbling, and has begun to clear. Yes, it will
MB>KW> look absolutely evil there for a while, don't worry, it is supposed
MB>KW> to.
MB> MM> Hmmmm checking the subject header then reading this post I can almost
MB> MM> force it into a religious discussion.... Dionysus??? or Bachus??
MB>Katherine has been posting nonsequitors to this clown for ages now.
MB>The object is to get him to understand the value of QUOTING. So
MB>far, that concept hasn't penetrated the calcium deposits above his
MB>collar line.
FIDO ate your original post to me. :)
This idjit refuses to quote. We know that he can do it, he has a time
or two. We're just giving him a dose of his own medicine.
As for the subject headers, well, posts tend to wander all over the
place in here. As it is a very busy message base, no one even attempts
to keep the topic lines current.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Dances with Wolves--stomp *YIPE* grrrrrrrrrrr....
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:a680 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 74743c01
RJ> KW> Check periodically to see if fermentation is finished, this will
RJ> KW> takeabout ten days to two weeks. Fermentation is finished when
the
RJ> KW> mead is no longer bubbling, and has begun to clear. Yes, it will
RJ> KW> look absolutely evil there for a while, don't worry, it is supposed
RJ> KW> to.
RJ> Yeah, but have you ever drunk the stuff while it's still
RJ> evil-looking? Worst hangover of my life; a headache that
RJ> woke me up at 8am.
No, can't say that I have. I would think that that would be about as
smart as eating raw bread dough.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...enjoy being an arrogant coward for Jesus?-P. Simpson
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Ad Kuiken
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:31:00
EID:b824 20578be0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6c3ea438
JB>We just received word that Leo's cousin, Ad Kuiken, died yesterday. Ad
JB>had Muscular Dystrophy and was originally not expected to live to be
a
JB>teenager. He made it to age 39 and was living in an apartment in Amersfoort,
JB>an assisted living situation.
JB>Ad died at his computer, answering mail. His roommate/caretaker sent
the
JB>mail packet before calling for help. Way to go, Ad.
My condolences to your husband, and to his family. Merry part, and may
you meet again.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * All we are is dust in the wind--Kansas
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:12:03
EID:e155 20578980
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 312e2795
REPLY: 1:3611/2 0004ddc2
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Owens said "Comminuion" to All,
adding:
JO> A person recently told me that the early beginnings of the christian
JO> ritual of holy comminuion were rooted in canabilism. This person
JO> claimed that if you ate the flesh and drank the blood of a person then
JO> you would aquire the attributes of that person.
JO> Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
You would appear to be the only one who has not. Consult
the anthropology section of your library for further details.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 17:19:46
EID:3bd3 20578a60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 312e2796
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Joanna Amren said "URL!" to Fredric Rice,
adding:
JA> I still insist that I am not an idiot.:) I could have
JA> been...then...but not now. Find a differnt person to pick on.
Maintain your silence and you shall get your wish.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 24 Feb 96 01:23:04
EID:7d9b 20580ae0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 11804319
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 03777529
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
SR> I have heard at least two other glaring technical-prop
JJH> Hmmm... I know about the telephone cord, what is the other one?
SR> The phone cord was the most damaging. But in addition to the
SR> screw-ups such as the hammer and microphone...they had a clock
SR> Chocked FULL of detail failures! Much like those babble
SR> inconsistencies. ;)
JB> Do you have sources for these "malaprops?" The mike, the phone
JB> cord, and the clock?
It doesn't take much searching to find the records. Manufacturer's own
product release archives...for one thing. And people who actually tracked
down some of the items shown from company catalogs and spokesperson's statements.
The hammer? Ask any medical doctor (you know...the ones with REAL degrees?)
what those instruments are used for. And as for the phone cord...oh, please!
Any fifty-year old could tell the difference in style.
But why anyone would bother to authenticate that pile of contrived alien
space-rubble is certainly beyond me.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM
|Date: 24 Feb 96 01:09:31
EID:fde8 20580920
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 11804315
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 628e0349
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Rob Burcham:
RB> Did you experience the white light and the tunnel?
JJH> No.... the afterlife looks a lot like the set of The
JJH> Honeymooners.
That figures. Just slam the door shut and the whole set comes falling down
around the actors' heads. Much like the afterlife we were already warned
about.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Megan Allen
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 24 Feb 96 17:14:52
EID:1225 205889c0
MSGID: 6:731/22 312f8e04
EH> Ok, let me re-phrase. *I* don't go out and kill people, because it is
EH> againstmy belief. I can't change what other people have done, nor
EH> will I be held
EH> accountable for it.
Probably off the subject.. But do you not ho out a kill people because it's
against your belief? In what, god? or because you, yourself, won't let
you kill someone..
---
* SPITFIRE v3.5 HoneyTree BBS, Misawa, Aomori Japan
--- SFScan v2.6 (beta)
* Origin: HoneyTree BBS, Misawa-shi Japan (6:731/22.0)
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PATH: 731/22 0 730/9 2 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: ASKING SILLY QUESTIO
|Date: 21 Feb 96 20:37:26
EID:98eb 2055a4a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca61
FMPT 1012
AS> Not. But then, Israel fell away from Jehovah several times,
AS> and God still labored to bring Israel back and save it.
JP> And, after much warning, ancient Israel was destroyed.
AS> Yes indeed. So if the papacy is doomed, there is nothing we can do to
AS> avert it, if it is God's will. So perhaps we should leave this to God.
Of course I'm "leaving it to God."
However, not being a Calvinist/pre-destinationist,
I'll continue to believe there is some value in warning people to-
" COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE."
JP> Therefore his calamity will come suddenly; Instantly he will be
JP> broken, and there will be no healing. Prov. 6:15 A man who hardens his
JP>neck after much reproof Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy. Prov.29:1
AS> That second one demands one be flexible after being reproved.
AS> A good lesson for ALL of us, John.
WBW, John
AS> ... I've had a bad day,I feel like a Christian Scientist with
AS> appendicitis
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
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SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: FUNDAMENTALIST ARE IN
|Date: 21 Feb 96 21:04:18
EID:3e4d 2055a880
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca62
FMPT 1012
AS> Where IS His Church? You put down the Catholics, certainly. The
AS> Protestants, for cowtowing to them. Where IS the Church, John?
JP> Sprinkled out all over the world.
AS> Yet not hiding their light, surely.
JP> "The guy" claims to rule Jesus's Church.
AS> He claims to lead the Catholics, JUST AS, say, my elders claim to
AS> lead my church. [---------]
JP> From- 1994 'Catechism of the [Roman] Catholic Church [pg 234
JP> paperback] [my emphasis]
JP> [882] The 'Pope', Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the
JP> perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the
JP> bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman
JP> Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor
of
JP> the entire Church has FULL, SUPREME, and UNIVERSAL power over the
JP> whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
JP> -END QUOTE-
AS> But of course papal infallibility was not needed as a doctrine to
AS> shore up papal power until the last century or two. When the pope had
AS> the most power, people could disagree with him.
Al, your above about the papacy
just make you look dumb to me.
You refuse to acknowledge the enormity of the evil of the papacy.
Like claiming to represent Jesus and burning
people to death is no big deal to you.
AS> Dante put a couple of Popes he disliked in Hell.
AS> (At least his literary version of same.)
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:56:54
EID:f58f 20566700
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca63
FMPT 1012
JP> Never mind they tell the world that the ruler of Jesus's people
JP> is a man in Rome called the pope.
AS> If I disagree with them on that (and I do) it does not affect my
AS> opinion on their willingness to work for Christ's goals.
JP> You're as silly as if a guy in WWII said it didn't matter whether
JP> American soldiers obeyed Patton or obeyed Rommel.
AS> Well, actually we are like members of, say, the French underground.
AS> And we have two people claiming to be agents sent by Patton, and no
AS> way to get back to Patton to confirm it. We have to judge them by the
AS> content of their messages and their conduct. We also have to be
AS> cognizant, since, we CANNOT contact Patton, not to execute one of
AS> them--in case they are the true one and we are wrong about which one
AS> is right.
Point is- It MATTERS whether the "French underground"
heeds the word of the "ally", or the word of the "enemy."
Based on "content of their messages and their conduct,"
I'm confident the papacy is inspired of the enemy,
therefore
I confidently warn people to not heed the papapcy.
You act like it doesn't matter who people heed.
AS> LARGEST GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO AVOW TO FOLLOW CHRIST IN THE WORLD!!!
JP> Roman Catholics follow the pope.
AS> They avow to follow Christ. To follow Peter's lineal
AS> successor, to whom Jesus entrusted the church.
AS> Do I think they do so too blindly? Someimes.
Al, you're really blind about this.
You're blind to the evil of the papacy.
[that's giving you the benefit of the doubt]
JP> YOU deny the papal claims are true, but
JP> YOU are not honest enough to confess RC's
JP> are an example of the "blind following the blind."
AS> I think many churches, Roman Catholic or no,
AS> will be berated at the Judgement.
There won't be any "churches" appearing at the Judgment.
Just individuals that either heeded Jesus, or heeded someone else.
JP> YOU are worried about the sensibilities of Roman Catholics.
AS> Yep. Because such divisive polemics in my experience
AS> just tend to make someone more outraged.
GOD injected the"divisive." "Great Whore" terminology.
It's deliberately designed to DIVIDE the saved from the lost.
AS> There is a guy called Tony Alamo who runs his own cult, and one
AS> of his main tenets is about how evil the Catholic Church is.
AS> If anything, he makes YOU look mild on that subject. There
I've read his stuff. We agree about the RC cult,
and disagree about some other stuff.
AS> was a guy putting fliers in windshields on our grocery store parking
AS> lot, and he handed one to Barb (My wife). Barb read it for a minute,
AS> ran up to him, and tore it to pieces in front of him, and started
AS> cussing him out for spreading such hate unasked on people's
AS> windshields. He was quite funny, too--"You're tearing up the Word of
AS> God". "I'm tearing up bits and pieces of the King James Bible that
AS> Alamo is misusing, JERK!"
Barb acted like the jerk.
JP> Christians are seeking to persuade people to heed Jesus
JP> and thereby avoid an eternity in a lake of fire.
AS> Which I don't think spreading hate is a good way to do so, John.
AS> Get the two-by-four out of your eye, HYPOCRITE, .....
JP> Get your head outa your ass, DUMMY.
AS> Hmmm. What does Jesus say about calling your brother "fool"?
In light of your name calling, you gotta lot of nerve.
Your accusation that I'm "spreading hate" is a lie, Al.
It just sounds hateful to the blind/lost.
Like "Jesus is Lord" sounded hateful/offensive
to the religious leaders that had demanded his crucifixion.
AS> ..... before you talk about the speck in ours.
AS> And that is VERY Biblical, John. Just ask Jesus.
JP> Adamantly contending against establishment religious leaders for
JP> misrepresenting God and mistreating God's children is also "VERY
JP> Biblical."
AS> It is indeed. And in this instance,
AS> I regard you as a religious leader of one.
And I consider you a de facto ally of the pope
even though you are either too dumb
or too lacking in integrity to admit it.
AS> See how it feels? BTW, there is also a verse (answering in the
AS> time between getting off and my ride, but I will be able to quote a
AS> verse in a few days) about always having a ready answer to those who
AS> question why you have your faith, but also to give it without malice
AS> or rancor, maligning no one. Can you really equate that with calling
AS> someone a "pagan bitch"? Somehow I don't think it is the way Paul
AS> converted the pagans. Yes, I know you have been the target of names
AS> yourself. And I agree with you about the war Israel waged against one
AS> of their own tribes when the concubine was killed. But there are times
AS> where it might be better to verbally turn the other cheek. Those I
AS> don't do so I only do after months of verbal abuse and trying the
AS> other way.
Yea, thanks for the advice. Thanks a lot.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorant of history
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:01:44
EID:f2fe 20566820
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca64
FMPT 1012
KM> Thursday Feb. 15 1996 16:35, John Prewett mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
JP> Hi Ken, just wanted you to know others see Fred Rice's
JP> cheap evasion of your easy to answer question.
JP> Fred, like all Christ haters,..
JP> wants to blame Christ for the deeds of wicked men.
JP> Lord help us all. WBW, John
KM> John, Thanks for the kind words, it does seem to get kinda lonely in
KM> here at times.. BTW what's WBW? Kenneth Mcabee
With Best Wishes, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Exactly what Christianity is
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:10:22
EID:bd89 20566940
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca65
FMPT 1012
JP> Salvi- A young, unstable Roman Catholic man/boy pushed
JP> over the edge by hard-core anti-abortion rhetoric.
FR> He's just doing EXACTLY what the Christanic death cult was created
FR> for, John. He's only do what Christianity has done for the past 2,000
FR> years. What you should focus on is the fact that you and he joined
FR> the same death cult.
Since modern protestants pretend to see little difference
between heeding the pope vice heeding Christ,
I really shouldn't be too harsh toward avowed anti-Christers like you
who pretend to see little difference
between heeding the pope vice heeding Christ.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Shinehead O'Connor
|Date: 22 Feb 96 13:13:48
EID:5ebe 205669a0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca66
FMPT 1012
KD> On (29 Jan 96) John Prewett wrote to Michael Hardy...
JP> The Roman Catholic cult has been getting far too much
JP> respect for CENTURIES. I applaud Sinead O'Connor.
KD> Take it one step farther and I'm with you, John.
KD> The CHRISTIAN cult has been getting far too much respect for CENTURIES.
You're just another who pretends to see no difference
between heeding Christ vice heeding the pope.
In light of the "heretics" and Reformation,
people like you [including many modern protestants]
have no good excuse for your blindness.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: White-lighter Religions
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:04:06
EID:b997 20567880
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca67
FMPT 1012
KD> On (31 Jan 96) John Prewett wrote to Katherine Wintersnight...
JP> You'd easily believe anything except God's truth.
KD> Demonstrate that it's the truth and we'll believe it. Also demonstrate
KD> that everything in what you call god's truth is equally from him.
KD> THEN convince me that I need to worship a jerk who thinks I should
KD> take orders from my husband.
KD> 3 steps there. Actually, one more, first. Demonstrate that a god exists.
JP> --- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
KD> Oh look... we have another hypocrite on our hands.
KD> Evaluating something for more than a year...
$25.00 SHAREWARE FEE PAID MAY OF 1994
[The program is in a self-extracting file
that I re-extracted November of 94].
Fee paid to Craig Vaughan, P.O.Box 2932, Merrifield, VA 22116. Craig Vaughan
- MacKennel Construction Site [1:109/342.0]
He wouldn't send me the way to remove the Evaluation sticker, and
I'm not spending long distance phone money to his BBS to find out.
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
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SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:10:14
EID:b412 20567940
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca68
FMPT 1012
KD> On (31 Jan 96) John Prewett wrote to Katherine Wintersnight...
JP> In other ancient cultures [cultures that pagans like you admire] what
JP> happened to that woman wouldn't have caused a stir unless she belonged
JP> to [yea, that's the way it was] a very powerful man.
KD> No indeed, in those pagan cultures, such as the Welsh,
KD> the women had power of their own.
In your feminist dreams.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:34:14
EID:0600 20567c40
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca69
FMPT 1012
KD> On (31 Jan 96) John Prewett wrote to Katherine Wintersnight...
JP> So, you admit that you expect Christians to adhere to higher
JP> standards than nonChristians.
KD> We hold people to the standards they state they hold themselves to.
"We" ? Are you the appointed heathen spokesperson ?
So you hold atheist/agnostics/heathens to no standard.
Yet at the same time, you'll contend heathens
adhere to higher standards.
Never mind the atheist/agnostic/heathen/pagans who think
nothing is more fun than [for instance] gang rape.
JP> Thereby de facto conceding the NT Christ sets a higher moral example
JP> than anything pagan.
KD> Apparently not, as you guys can't seem to take that example and keep
KD> out of jail. How many Pagans are in jail as compared to Christians?
The NT Christ didn't guide anyone to steal, murder, etc.
Not one prisoner in a million claims he's
in jail due to the guidance of Christ.
At least thousands would admit they are in jail due
to an act contradictory to the guidance of Christ.
And such as you have NO GUIDANCE to offer anyone.
Most people in jail are there because they were lawless,
which is to be expected of a standard denying atheist/pagan.
JP> You say Lynda B. is a Christian, and you like her.
JP> You say I'm a Christian, and you dispise me.
KD> It's the way you handle yourselves. Lynda is willing to
KD> admit that what she believes may not be valid for us.
If Christ is dead, then Christ is "valid" for nobody.
If Christ is alive, then Christ is "valid" for everybody.
Whether they presently know it or not.
JP> Now tell me again,.... am I a Christian or not ?
JP> Do you really know if I rate the label ?
KD> This is always the hard issue. I consider someone a Christian
KD> if they say they are. Period. I take them at their word.
That's as dumb as acting as if anyone who calls themself
a doctor or lawyer is really a doctor or lawyer.
That's why there are credentials and standards.
Your use of the label "Christian" is just mindless.
KD> That gives me the opportunity to rate the failed moral system of
KD> Christianity for what it is.
As if a heathen like you had any "moral system" at all.
KD> If someone can't follow it even though they say they do,
KD> it is a worthless system.
Are schools worthless cause sometimes kids fail tests ?
And cause some kids don't learn much ? Cause some fail ?
JP> Am I so powerful over weak little you, that you would condemn
JP> innocent person [Christ] due to my flawed character ?
KD> an The system developed in his name, yes.
You just don't want to admit someone [God] exists
who is both bigger and better than you.
WBW, John
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:39:20
EID:0600 20567ce0
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca6a
FMPT 1012
KD> On (31 Jan 96) John Prewett wrote to AL SCHROEDER...
JP> Be that as it may, Jesus death impressed a Roman soldier in a way
JP> that shows Jesus's death wasn't the "same" as the death of most men.
JP> By a long shot.
KD> Talk to any person present at a high profile execution here in the US.
Do these persons commonly say "Truly this man was the Son of God" ?
JP> And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so
JP> cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son
JP> of God. Mark 15:39
KD> Demonstrate that this actually happened.
Hmmmm, so you want a trip in a time machine to personally
witness the the centurion saying this ?
Is that how you were convinced of other contentions of historical event
?
WBW, John
But if any man [or woman] be ignorant, let him [or her] be ignorant.
1 Cor. 14:38
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/1 2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Prewett
|To: THOMAS DELCANO
|Sub: hi
|Date: 22 Feb 96 15:48:00
EID:162c 2056