God Damned Fundies!
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: churches
|Date: 23 Feb 96 13:11:00
EID:042c 20576960
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 09:01, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> the first message I've seen addressed _From_ you in quite some
AS> has been as blind to my messages as you) and he hasn't been seeing
AS> them. So I can now get Washington state but NOT nearby Alabama. Truly
Someone else living in that general area had complained about the
same thing a while back. Something about the way the feeds were
being handled regular vs. PC....
AS> system (actually a used one, but comprable to my old) and was able to
AS> save my RAM chips out of the old one, AND, although the hard drive in
From what you have described, I'm surprised that they even work...
AS> new, so none of our files on the hard drive will be lost! (Yes, we did
Tha can be a help.
AS> have most of them backed up on disc. Most of those discs are now
AS> interrestingly warped by the heat.) Should have it this Saturday. Even
I'm not sure if you can do anything with them. However, I've got
some badly warped 5 1/4's that are still usable...
AS> us money to help make up for some of our losses. And the main thing
AS> is, all we lost were things, not people.
That's the main thing.
... "Oh, bother", said Pooh as he lit the fuse on the dynamite.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 23 Feb 96 13:14:00
EID:bf1f 205769c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 07:26, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> Am I no longer deemed to be in your corner?
DC> Do I detect a pout?
MB> Probably. How does it look? Okay? I just got it yesterday,
MB> and I'm trying it out for the first time. Is it my color?
Hard to say... I'm trying to simulate one, just to get an idea
about how one would look, but it's hard to pout when you are laughing!
DC> aren't posting from WA State. (or are you?)
MB> True. I was born there, though. Does that count?
Welllll, maybe a bit...
DC> area. After all, I've got Armsted to deal with... Good thing
DC> I like a good laugh!
MB> If you didn't, what would you be doing here?
I'd have no idea, as 2/3's + of this Echo is far too full of
laughs and good fun.
... "I'd be 'Erudite' if I knew what the fuck it meant..." Jim Staaled
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: The Constellation
|Date: 23 Feb 96 13:20:00
EID:be00 20576a80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 01:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> I can walk in and ALMOST not get any burning smell. Maybe. Or have I
AS> just gotten used to it?
It takes some time, that's for sure.
DC> Yep, contrary to Jesse, I'm an atheist that cares!
AS> Never doubted it, Dan. Appreciate the concern.
Saved to ATHEIST.CAR File for future reference. Thanks!
AS> ... Honest Officer! That cat was on fire when I got here.
Does your insurance company know about that? Then, too, you
should mention Ass-More-Diddle-us to your list of suspects, especially
if it was a black cat....
... The meek may inherit earth. Those who dare, the stars.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:30:00
EID:a8ec 205793c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 04:14, Kenneth Mcabee got back to Fredric Rice
FR> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
KM> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
He's not tempting his god, he's tempting your lack of belief.
... Would you punish your kids for eternity?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:36:00
EID:d16c 20579480
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 16:06, Dawn Kleuser got back to All
DK> children with women? Were they truly Sons of God? In my own thinking,
DK> these angels WERE Sons of God, but, like Lucifer, they were EVIL. That
That's because it is your god that created evil in the first place.
And, like a little kid playing with matches, your god doesn't have
enough sense to put the fire out.
... Christianity: A house of cards lacking a first floor. gr
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:49:00
EID:37dd 20579620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 20:29, Michael Hardy got back to Elliott Finesse
> MH> portrayed in the Old Testament as occasionally championing the
> MH> destruction of entire cities, including the presumably innocent
EF> Mike, sorry, but you don't have an explanation period.
MH> Yes, I do. It just isn't unambiguous and simplistic. It is that God
I has to be that way so that you can alibi your death god out of
his atrocities.
MH> punishes those guilty of evil. If God did indeed order the killing of
MH> truly innocent children along with the guilty adults, then I would
MH> suppose that the ending of their physical life was not the judgment,
Gee, that's sweet: "Hey, I'm gonna kill you, children, but I'm
doing this for your own good. You'll thank me for the pain that
I'm going to inflict on your pre-pubescent minds and bodies.": God.
MH> but what happens after. If so, then I believe the innocent children
MH> who, unfortunately, lost their physical lives, gain eternal life in
"You older girls... Yeah, you all there. If you can prove that
you are a virgin, you will be saved....for those men over there.": God.
... Mark 16:15-18. Shall I pour?
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:04:00
EID:bcf1 20579880
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 08:01, Andrew Masten got back to Rob Burcham
RB> people 'believe' they've been abducted by aliens. Are you willing
RB> to accept THEIR beliefs?
AM> If, on threat of execution by torture, they did not recant, I
AM> would be compelled to believe they were not fabricating a story.
Seems like the witches in Salem didn't recant and they died for
their beliefs. As it was xians that where torturing them and
executing them, their belief must mean more than your belief.
... At first they burn books. Eventually they burn people.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: hi
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:13:00
EID:5212 205799a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 08:08, Andrew Masten got back to Brian Kolacy
BK> It's entirely possible that Christ was fictional. But i didn't say
BK> anything like that. I *will* say that the the story of Christ has
BK> ficitonal aspects.
AM>
AM> Do you think its entirely possible that Aristotle, Julius Ceaser,
AM> Nero and Plato are fictional characters?
So what if they are? In any event, none of them are claimed to
be gods. Your Jesus, however, it touted to be one via your
superstitious beliefs.
Care to provide the independent evidence that supports that
rather spectacular claim of yours?
... +Origin: MERGANSER NETWORK: QUACKING FOR JEEEEZUS!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: legend
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:20:00
EID:feee 20579a80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 21:12, Michael Hardy got back to Brian Kolacy
MH> Are you unaware of the Jerusalem Church, which grew up -- as the name
MH> implies -- in Jerusalem, the same city where Jesus was crucified? And
MH> well before Paul's conversion, too.
And it died with the rest of that church c. 70 CE at Massada.
It was a Jewish sub-cult, and remained so until it's demise.
... Jewish Dilemma - Free Ham
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:25:00
EID:e9da 20579b20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 21:15, Michael Hardy got back to Kevin D. Mckenzie
MH> However, that's not what the gospels and letters of Paul say about
MH> him. If you accept them as historical documents, but reject most of
Would you accept the propaganda issued by either side in WW II
as "historical documents" that protrayed facts?
... Trust a god who will send me to hell because of the way HE made me?
DD
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Question
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:28:00
EID:8a77 20579b80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 22:08, Michael Hardy got back to George Rudzinski
GR> Are there any Black users of this echo?
MH> Why should it matter?
It shouldn't, as you note.
MH> We're all colored people of some shade or other.
Can I choose dark blue? I look good in blue...
... "Inconceivable!" - Vinzinni
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal won't drink it eith
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:37:00
EID:fbc9 20579ca0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 04:04, Kenneth Mcabee got back to Fredric Rice
FR> Drink up.
KM> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
It's not his god, Kenny. He can tempt the bastard you worship
all he wants. It's you that are afraid to be tempted to into
showing your devotion to your god.
... Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:42:00
EID:2167 20579d40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 07:58, Andrew Masten got back to Martin Goldberg
MG> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
AM> Jim Jones was a pyschotic. That he didn't adhere to Christ's
AM> teaching is self evident.
Provide the evidence that Jones was not Jesus Christ on his
second trip down here and he raptured his followers.
... Fundamentalism: "By sword or by cross." America's Homegrown Deathcult.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: tru fuls
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:49:00
EID:69c2 20579e20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 20:46, Michael Hardy got back to Elliott Finesse
MH> I'm not calling them fools on my own authority; just reporting what
MH> God's word says. (Psalms 14:1 and 53:1.)
Got a picture of your god performing the interview? How about
some file footage of him showing his backside to Abraham? When's
he gonna go for the Big Time and do a show on Donahue?
... "Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a savior out of this virgin!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 23 Feb 96 19:51:00
EID:f187 20579e60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 20:49, Joanna Amren got back to Fredric Rice
-> ~*~ Don't take me for an idiot...please...because I am NOT an idiot.
-> - Joanna Amren (Defending Christanic Creationism myths)
JA> I still insist that I am not an idiot.:) I could have
JA> been...then...but not now. Find a differnt person to pick on.
Does that mean that you gave up on your religion?
... When you think for yourself, you know!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Religions In Canada - Sta
|Date: 23 Feb 96 20:34:00
EID:c9d3 2057a440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 17:19, Sue Armstrong got back to Richard Morrison
SA> From: Religions in Canada, Statistics Canada Census 1991 #93-319
SA> Catholic: 12,335,255 Protestant: 9,780,710
SA> (Just to drive Prewett nuts, you know) :)
Then, tell them that's not the scores at half-time, but the finals!
... Jesus Saves, Gretzki scores on the rebound!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: The Constitution of the U
|Date: 23 Feb 96 20:39:00
EID:67c4 2057a4e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-20-96 21:53, Sue Armstrong got back to Jesse Jones
SA> THe following is, AFAIK, the ENTIRE Constitution of the USSR, as
SA> ratified in 1977 under Brezhnev. Read it all and then tell me
Thanks for u/l the files. Duly saved, at least as long on my
floppy drives doesn't go south again. (got some cold weather
again...>
... Why be Politically Correct when you CAN be RIGHT?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 23 Feb 96 20:46:00
EID:b57d 2057a5c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 21:33, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> There's a book written by a fellow who has two Ph.D's -- one in
MB> law, the other in Jungian psychology. He wrote a wonderful book
MH> He sounds like a condescending twit.
DC> Have your read his book? Better yet, have you ever met the
DC> author in person?
MH> Did you read my whole post?
Did you ever stop to think before you posted what you did?
MH> If so, your editing of it is a deliberate
MH> deception.
Bullshit, Mikey. I posted just what you wrote. Care to comment
on you comment that "He sounds like a condescending twit."?
After all, Mikey, you wrote it. Or, are you going to call that
bit of writing an "allegory"?
MH> I specifically said that my opinion was based on Marilyn's
MH> report, and nothing more.
Then, Mikey, you have absolutely no basis to have made your
statement, as you admit to not knowing the author, nor have
you even read a single one of his works.
MH> That means (to any intelligent person) that
The disclaimer excludes you, I see.
MH> if the author's actual presentation differs from her portrayal of it,
MH> the opinion is inoperative.
Your brain has gone inoperative as you sink even lower into a
fundamentalist mode.
... "Be not righteous overmuch." -- Ecclesiastes 7:16
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:04:00
EID:691f 2057a880
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-22-96 07:39, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
-> On 02-18-96 18:45, Michael Hardy got back to Marilyn Burge
MB> There's a book written by a fellow who has two Ph.D's -- one in
MB> law, the other in Jungian psychology. He wrote a wonderful book
MH> He sounds like a condescending twit.
DC> Have your read his book? Better yet, have you ever met the
MB> Methinks there's a condescending twit around here, but it ain't
MB> Edmund D. Cohen.
Care to bet that Mikey claims "allegory" or some other stance to
show that he didn't mean that Cohen was "a condescending twit"?
Rhetorical on my part, for sure, as I've seen his comment back
to me. He'd do far better if Barney was his proofreader. A
bit truth and that sugar coating that Mikey claims to have
has been washed away, like his personal version of the flood
and his stance on a "Virgin Birth" for his godling.
I used to think that he had a cognizant brain. Probably only
wishful thinking on my part, as his theology runs far too
deep to allow him to use it in any constructive manner. :\{
... "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he centered the crosshairs on Tigger.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: 2 thirds
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:08:00
EID:f066 2057a900
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
Preston, I couldn't find my file on this, but it looks like
Andy make my case for me!
* Originally By: Andrew Masten
* Originally To: Dan Ceppa
* Originally Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
* Original Area: HolySmoke
* Forwarded by : Blue Wave v2.12
DC> It's not. It's low. The figure is closer to 2/3. Assisted abortions
DC> are less tha 2% of the total.
I read 2 articles in Groliers Encyclopedia. One agreed that up to 2/3.
However the majority of these pregnacies are terminated before the women
is aware she is pregnant. In most cases, something is terribly wrong.
----------------------
See also my reply to Andy...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 23 Feb 96 21:20:00
EID:2167 2057aa80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 892D0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-21-96 08:22, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> It's not. It's low. The figure is closer to 2/3. Assisted abortions
DC> are less tha 2% of the total.
AM>
AM> I read 2 articles in Groliers Encyclopedia. One agreed that up to
AM> 2/3.
Thank you so kindly in confirming my case for me.
AM> However the majority of these pregnacies are terminated before
AM> the women is aware she is pregnant. In most cases, something is
AM> terribly wrong.
Seems like your god would do far better in making sure that any
and all pregnacies are "correct". Or, isn't your god capable
of handling trifles like that?
AM> Attributing these deaths to God is inflammatory
AM> rhetoric.
DC> Why would that be inflammatory? After all, they died not from
DC> anything other than your god being unwilling to allow them to
DC> come to term.
AM> When someone who claims they don't believe in God, attributes to
AM> God some evil, its being inflammatory.
Try again, Andy. You claim a benevolent god. You tell me why
my sisters had to go through the misery that they did to have
the childeren that they now have. They wanted childeren, yet
you god not only denied them that fact, he allowed them to
think that they were going to have them and took them away.
AM> all the successful births to the blessing and goodness of God?
DC> If you want to. But, then, you will have to admit that your god
DC> is the world's largest provider of abortions. Either that, or that
AM> No Dan, the problem is with man who rejected God's plan for him.
IOW, you can't answer to the pain that my sisters experienced
physically and emotionally that your "god" caused.
Rejecting your god is a call to life. Believing in him is wallowing
in your death-cult.
... "2 of 3 abortions are by God's will." Grollier's Encyclopedia
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Yo...
|Date: 22 Feb 96 16:54:00
EID:c0ad 205686c0
MSGID: 1:284/120 570387f0
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011262
(*WHILE ROLLING AROUND ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING*) I admit shamefully that I
did, indeed, ask for such a response. My reader did not pick up the word
"debate" after "religous". So, unawares, I "asked" for a fight and got
one. And, unfortunately, my reader also did not pick up your messg to me,
and I only had time to scan it while online. I'll go back to it later.
But, in the meantime, let's chat. Tell me, are your angels notorious for
masturbating on church walls also? I have heard of that being done, as
well as other most gruesomely blasphemous behavior, like the ones you mention.
Are you some sort of Pagan Occultist? With a name like J.j. Hitt, I'd wonder.
The angels I speak of commit no more crime than that of wearing polyester
once in awhile, so I guess that makes 'em pretty boring compared to yours.
I'd love to hear more about them. And I'm not sorry to report that your
attempt at shocking the crap out of me has failed miserably, Buck Wheat.
Where I cum from, NOTHING is out of the ordinary...
... "Love it or leave it, she with the deadly bite." - Metallica ___ Blue
Wave/QWK v2.12
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Adventure Zone BBS, Linn Creek, Missouri, U.S.A. (1:284/120)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 24 Feb 96 07:19:00
EID:6a61 20583a60
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 68e0bbb6
KM>Not trying to scare you George, never tried to scare anyone around here,
or
KM>while I out on the street preaching the gospel. (BTW your opinion of
me, don'
Show up on MY street and you may get a real QUICK trip to 'heaven'...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 24 Feb 96 07:19:00
EID:7a3d 20583a60
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 996f4ef9
GM> FASHION OR FAITH?
GM> Read: 1 Corinthians 1:18-25
If you can't write something original, go the fuck away.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: points
|Date: 24 Feb 96 07:19:00
EID:273d 20583a60
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org d067d2a9
MH> MB> When we get messages all the time telling us that a global flood
MH> MB> really, really happened; that dead people really, really do get
up
MH> In the case of the flood, you're right. In the other two cases, though,
MH> your evidence that the claims are untrue amounts to "is not."
Ah. Lettuce and onions, but no tomatos...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 24 Feb 96 07:19:00
EID:9e1a 20583a60
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org b7f12569
MH> People who feel victimized by others often take it as evidence that
God
MH> doesn't exist. What they fail to appreciate is the same moral freedom
MH> that God allows their victimizer also benefits themselves. We all sin,
Nope. I don't sin. Never have.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 24 Feb 96 07:19:00
EID:e381 20583a60
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org c1f631f3
MH> you'll find that most of the atheists on Holy Smoke take the Bible much
MH> more literally than many Christians do. ;-)
ROFL! There's one for the FAQ, even with the smiley!!
---
* OLX 2.2 * Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 24 Feb 96 07:19:00
EID:9800 20583a60
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 64009029
PS>evil that wouldn't involve getting rid of most of the human race? (hint-
PS>look at the definition of omnipotence: "able to do anything." Anything
PS>covers a lot of ground, Dan. Try not to limit yourself to what you can
PS>imagine.)
PS> DO> Everyone who has done anything wrong in their life, (and I believe
we
PS> DO> all have at one time or another) are now removed. But it doesn't
stop
PS>Wait. How does "doing something wrong" coincide with being evil? I did
PS>things wrong in math classes all the time. Did that make me evil?
Only if you divided by zero.
PS> DO> would become total robots with God pushing all of the buttons,,,,
and
PS> DO> then we would be claiming how God isn't fair, and we should be
allowed
PS> DO> to live our own lives......etc.
PS>Would we? Robots don't complain, Dan.
Which he should know, since he's already one.
PS> DO> Ain't much help, but it does make sense when you think about it.
PS>No, it doesn't, but thanks anyway.
ROFL
---
* OLX 2.2 * If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: a miracle in the making
|Date: 24 Feb 96 07:19:00
EID:a2ce 20583a60
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 6d308e87
DC> GtP> Are you having a bad week or something?
DC> JH> I'm dead, stupid.
DC>What's that? A superfluous comma ala Maria Russell?
Aw shit, another keyboard...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Listen: this is real bizarre: 'datum' is and 'data' are.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Chicken Crossing
|Date: 24 Feb 96 07:19:00
EID:fead 20583a60
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 8cf1bbcb
DC> * Originally By: Sam Lefkowitz
DC> * Originally To: All
DC> * Originally Re: Chicken Crossing
DC> WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD?
DC> TIMOTHY LEARY: Because that's the only kind of trip the
DC> Establishment would let it take.
BILL GATES: It's my chicken and my road. None of your business.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Born again? No, I don't think my mom would appreciate it.
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: points
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:25:59
EID:239b 20587320
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62a64a18
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A3
MG>> This is a killer. You don't believe the bible's account of
MG>> the flood, but you believe that jesus was born to a virgin
MG>> and that a dead man got up and walked away? This is getting
MG>> rich.
MH> Er ... I've been on record here on all three issues for two
MH> years now, Martin. Weren't you paying attention?
Let's make it much simpler then....Do you believe in an all powerful and
merciful god?
It's the same thing. Unmitigated mythology.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:28:53
EID:e39e 20587380
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62a65332
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B43A7
MH> Similarly, the odds that a big bang governed by nothing but luck
MH> will produce some arrangement of matter is pretty good. The
MH> odds that it will produce an arrangement of matter capable
MH> of sustaining *any* kind of life are effectively zero.
I'll pull a Hector on you. Step off of a building and see wht happens.
do you fall to your death? Sure you do. So the designer was at fault,
making gravity a thing that can deal death. Why can't he have designed
gravity to do the good that it does without having bad side effects. Kids
fall off of high places every day and end up in emergency rooms. Why didn't
your god think of that?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: information
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:32:46
EID:aee9 20587400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62a66ae3
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892B43B3
MH> woman's face and breasts. It is sickeningly animalistic. There
MH> is no soul to it. There is not even emotion to it. The
MH> people need not even know one another's names -- and they
MH> are performing the most intimate human interaction for an
MH> audience, people they don't know and who don't know them. It
MH> makes a mockery of intimacy.
While I do not disagree with your appraisal of porn, you have to remember
that it is not something that is based on emotion. It is something that
is based on the physical act alone.
It is my belief that the purpose of porn, as well as prostitution is not
gratifiaction of sexual desires as we know them, but to fulfill desires
of power over another human. Many men are attracted to women and those
women thta are willing can act as s3ex objects for them. Some are not so
picky and select the young and old for their fantasies which are actually
acts of physical violence. Porn, in a way, is a stand in for the act of
domination and seeing another human subjected to what you might consider
a debasing act is actually why they view it. It is their stand in for prostitution.
I do nto judge it's value. There will always be those that are willing
to do this sort of thing. I actually think that in this manner it helps
those who see a need to debase others from engaging in the act of rape.
I do not morally censure porn. It is something tht I believe, serves a
purpose and while those involved in it are not compelled to do it, I have
no arguement with it.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:45:58
EID:f685 205875a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62a685ff
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 5da92de4
JB> "The LORD said to Moses, 'Avenge the people of Israel on the
JB> Midianites; afterward you shall be gathered to your
JB> people.'"
JB> Note that in reading on _after_ that, all the actions taken were
JB> taken at the instructions of _Moses_. God does not again
JB> speak until 31:25, in which no hint of the slaughter is
JB> mentioned. (This is about distribution of the booty.)
This is just so much rhetoric. God told Moses to avenge himself. What
else did god mean? God meant for the hebrews to out and kill their enemies.
God does then speak about the division of the booty. He makes no mention
of what a terrible thing this was or why the hebrews should never gone out
and slaughtered those people. He never tells them that Moses as misunderstood
him.
Your god gave orders to murder those people. And his willing slaves wne
tout and did it.
Really. You fundies will try anything, including believing the rest of
us to be stupid too.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:53:14
EID:79a1 205876a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62a68925
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 312cded5
MG>> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
AM> Jim Jones was a pyschotic. That he didn't adhere to Christ's
AM> teaching is
AM> self evident.
Diod you ever ask Jim if he adhered to christ's teachings? Had he said
"yes" who would we believe, you or he?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: wrong board
|Date: 24 Feb 96 14:59:50
EID:5834 20587760
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62a697d9
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1b00813a
>> Now if Bill gets reelected, will you move to Mexico or
>> something?
SM> What did the Mexicans ever do to you, that you would wish Psycho
SM> Ward on them??
You've never eaten at Escondido's, have you?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: George Mooth
|To: All
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 23 Feb 96 13:44:00
EID:d432 20576d80
February 25 Sunday
HOW TO HANDLE FEAR
Read: Psalm 56
Whenever I am afraid, I will
trust in You. -Psalm 56:3
Some years ago as I lay in a hospital bed, I overheard two women
talking in a waiting room outside my door. Evidently the husband of
one of them was in critical condition. She had been under extreme
stress and was greatly concerned about his recovery. She said to
her friend, "you know, when you're as worried as I am, you just have
to smoke!"
That made me think about how people handle their fears. Some turn
to alcohol, others turn to food, and some to busyness. The psalmist
gave us a better solution to the problem of fear. He said,
"Whenever I am afraid, I will trust in You" (56:3). It's tragic
when we turn to something other than the Lord to fill the void or
cover up the pain we're feeling.
If we have put our faith in God's Son, Jesus Christ, we can have
confidence that our heavenly Father sees us in our trials and has
promised His protection. In times of distress, we can place our
trust in the Lord. He wants us to call on Him so that He can
encourage us with His presence and give us His peace.
As you rest in the Lord and rely on Him today, you will be able to
say with the psalmist, "Whenever I am afraid, I will trust in You."
-Richard W. De Haan
Nothing is hid from His all-seeing eye,
Never a teardrop nor even a sigh;
Anxious and troubled you never need be -
Trust Him completely and doubtings will flee. -Nienhuis
WHEN FEAR KNOCKS AT YOUR DOOR,
LET FAITH OPEN IT.
OUR DAILY BREAD, Copyright 1996 by Radio Bible Class, Grand Rapids,
Michigan. Used by permission.
---
þ 1st 2.00 #1855 þ God's baud rate is ì.
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PATH: 2285/100 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Robins
|Sub: QUOTE
|Date: 23 Feb 96 14:33:00
EID:31be 20577420
-=> Quoting David Robins to Fredric Rice <=-
DR> Evolution is ultimately from the devil, for if people believe that
DR> they are products of random chance they will never turn to God.
Then you admit that god lies by planting fossil evidence of evolution?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: out of focus
|Date: 23 Feb 96 18:19:00
EID:c577 20579260
MM> Hmmmm can I quote you in a speech I'm making next May 5th? Or in a
MM> article I must turn in Oct.25th? You have done a wonderful job on
this
MM> of writing and it would be a wonderful addition.
There should have been a header on that one (or on part 1) showing that
I
didn't write it myself. I took it off the web to post to Mike Hardy in
answer to his defense of Focus on the Family. I THOUGHT I had caught all
the grunging and deletions that the combination of my editor and the board
I use had done, but if the disclaimer is not there, then I must have
missed some.
If you have a web browser, set it to search for Focus on the Family. This
piece came up in a site that is ANTI-FoF. Once the new computer comes back,
I'll look and see if I can find the URL for you. The piece had a disclaimer
on it that said it could be used and distributed if the proper attribution
was used. I left it on so if you didn't see it then something happened
between here and there.
Typical for this computer. Well, it will be dead for 3 days but when
resurrected will be a miracle of technology.
... ...The Ron & Nancy Reagan Computer: No colon, no period, no memory.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: ALIEN AUTOPSY
|Date: 24 Feb 96 06:10:00
EID:726e 20583140
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Steve Rose <=-
JB> Do you have sources for these "malaprops?" The mike, the phone cord,
JB> and the clock?
I know 'Inside Edition' is not exactly the most reliable production around,
but even THEY did a debunking on that. They interviewed the man who was
supposed to have dated it to 1947. He stated very clearly that the film
STOCK could have been manufactured anywhere between 1942 and 1957. But that
was the only thing he was asked to do. It said nothing about WHEN the film
was used. (And it is possible that whoever is responsible for the 'autopsy'
found unused old film stock.)
The other thing 'IE' showed were some stills...of the 'alien', a hand with
a makeup pallette in it and another hand with brushes. They also has an
FX
person show exactly how some of the things could have been done.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: AD KUIKEN
|Date: 24 Feb 96 06:18:00
EID:9c5c 20583240
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Judith Bandsma <=-
KDM> I'm sorry. Were you close?
Semi. We lost touch when Ad was no longer able to control the muscles in
his arms and was unable to write. This was before he got his computer. Even
with the computer, he could control his fingers but his arms had to be
braced into position. I guess, being so far away, and Ad beating the odds
for so long, we just allowed ourselves to not remember that Muscular
Dystrophy IS a killer.
I would love to get hold of Ad's photographs and see if I couldn't get
them published. When he was still able to hold a camera, he did some of
the most amazing candid work you would ever want to see. He worked in
black and white and can only be compared to Ansel Adams' early work. We
have 2 he took of my youngest son, and they are gallery quality. But he
never saw them that way.
Yeah. Even though we haven't been close in a while, Ad will be missed.
... Experiencing tagline difficulties, please stand by.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 24 Feb 96 06:42:00
EID:db48 20583540
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Marilyn Burge <=-
JH> I was under the impression that amendment was "Pastor" Pete
JH> Peters' baby. (Peters, a Coloradan, is a widely recognized
JH> leader of the "Christian Identity" movement.)
MB> If I'm wrong, I stand corrected.
MH> I don't see you offering an apology to the people of Focus on the
MH> Family, whom your error resulted in your slandering.
There is no slander, Mike. Whoever was behind that bill, FoF is claiming
it as their own and pushing for it or variations of it even today. Look
at
their web page...you will find it as one of their prime goals. In print,
in public. How do you slander someone with the truth?
... Open mouth, insert shoe store.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 300 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102
SEEN-BY: 270/103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 311/111 320/119
SEEN-BY: 340/20 345/12 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/97 200 803 911
SEEN-BY: 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 27 Feb 96 12:56:15
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7aac
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62a95338
PID: FM 2.02
> HAVE YOU LIVED ON
> ANOTHER PLANET?
> 90 MILLION AMERICANS HAVE!
cuts
> Source Of Information: WEEKLY WORLD NEWS, February 13, 1996.
Too cool. I put this in SKEPTIC. }:-}
~*~ Humanism is a very evangelical religion after the control of the world.
- Mark Fox
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angels...
|Date: 27 Feb 96 13:00:27
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7aad
REPLY: 1:284/120 5803a66c
PID: FM 2.02
> OKAY, PEOPLE, I GET THE POINT ALREADY, SO YOU CAN STOP FILLING MY
> MAILBOX WITH THE SNIDE COMMENTS. I WILL NOW BOW OUT, NEVER TO BOTHER
> YOU AGAIN.
"Snide comments..." Why not just answer our honest questions honestly?
~*~ Sex outside of a Christian marriage is unsafe whether
it is homosexual or not. - Dr. (sic) James Robertson
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Web Site
|Date: 27 Feb 96 13:01:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7aae
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 130bd372
PID: FM 2.02
> For those of you who have access to the InterNet World Wide Web:
> http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~cwalker/waco/waco.html
> A Web site about the American tragedy of Waco.
Neat! Does it also include your friends who blew up the federal building
in Oklahoma?
~*~ "Damn, I asked for evidence and all I got was this
lousy Josh McDowell T-shirt." - SS
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Lack of any Evidence whatsoever
|Date: 27 Feb 96 13:03:52
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7aaf
PID: FM 2.02
John Brawley
JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
dr> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
Yeah, besides that.
~*~ Good grief. Guess he's never read the bible he is thumping. - David
Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 27 Feb 96 13:54:29
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab0
REPLY: 1:124/9005 3130c19a
PID: FM 2.02
FR> HATRED OF WIFE IS ENOUGH
FR> Read: Matt. 19:29.
FR> ... Married life presupposes the power of the
FR> husband over the wife and children, and subjection
FR> and obediance of the wife to the husband. - Pope
FR> Pius XI, _Casti Connubii_
sq> That's the best you can do? You can't come up with any more
sq> up-to-date funnies from Paul VI (Humanae Vitae) or John Paul
sq> II? :-/
Well I was pressed up against the publishing deadline and just posted what
I had ready. Yet rest not in fear. We shall be granted ever more chances
to try many new things when next this buttfuck posts again.
~*~ it's that the power you worship is an inept, defeated, dog. - Don Geser
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:00:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab1
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62a01a4f
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Happy days are here again
FR> it's okay to hate blacks and queers again
FR> it's time to spread the white man's fears again
FR> when Bucanon's here again
jjh> I was stuck at a bus stop for about half an hour today.
jjh> There was a payphone at the bus stop.
jjh> I called 1-800-GO-PAT-GO, repeatedly.
Too cool. (BTW: How's your curse?)
cuts
> "Did Buchanan dodge the draft?"
> "I don't know, this is a support line."
> "Then support my need to know: is he a draft dodger?"
> "I don't know."
> "Why don't you know?"
> "This is a support line."
> "I'm calling for support. Did he serve in Vietnam or did he dodge
> the draft?"
> "I don't know. This is a support line."
> ...loop...loop...loop...loop...
What the Goddess Hel does the Religious Reich need with a "support line?"
What kind of information are they expecting to give out? Or is it a line
which takes donations?
~*~ Sorry, I must have misunderstood your question. I believe that the
Holy Spirit caused on of Mary's eggs to become a fetus without sperm.
- Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:04:04
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab2
PID: FM 2.02
> A STRING OF BAD CHOICES
> Read: Genesis 13
> As righteousness leads to life,
> so he who pursues evil pursues
> it to his own death.
> -Proverbs 11:19
A STRING OF TYPICAL CHRISTIANS
Read: Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior
as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness,
surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for
what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who,
God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
~*~ Please, for kryst sake, slit your wrists already. - Kirby Nixon
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:05:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab3
PID: FM 2.02
> WE ALL NEED JESUS
> Read: Luke 18:18-27
> You He made alive, who were
> dead in trespasses and sins.
> -Ephesians 2:1
WE ALL NEED CHRISTIAN FASCISM
Read: Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922
"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read
through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in
His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the
brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against
the Jewish poison.
~*~ Get thee behind me Satan. - Kenneth Mcabee
Bend over. - Satan
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Exactly what Christianity is
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:07:57
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab4
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca65
PID: FM 2.02
fP> Salvi- A young, unstable Roman Catholic man/boy pushed
fP> over the edge by hard-core anti-abortion rhetoric.
fR> He's just doing EXACTLY what the Christanic death cult was created
FR> for, John. He's only do what Christianity has done for the past 2,000
FR> years. What you should focus on is the fact that you and he joined
FR> the same death cult.
jp> Since modern protestants pretend to see little difference
But then you're a lunatic who thinks JFK will rise up from the dead and
take over the planet with Kenry Kissinger. Time to get back on
that medication, John.
~*~ Why buy toilet paper when bibles are given away free? - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: who dunnit ?
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:08:53
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab5
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 12f2ca79
PID: FM 2.02
> Who conducted the Crusades? Who conducted the Inquisitions? Who
> conducted the Witch hunts? Christians, clown. Perhaps you should
FR> The Christanic death cult, silly. Weren't you paying attention?
fr> For centuries Christanics slaughtered millions upon millions of
fr> innocent people, sacrficing them to their death gods. This hatred
fr> and bigotry still exists today through the broad spectrum of
fr> Christanic brand names.
jp> Only the real, real dumb can't see your evasion.
But then you're a lunatic who thinks JFK will rise up from the dead and
take
over the planet with Kenry Kissinger. Time to get back on that
medication, John.
~*~ "I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem
to particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart
from God even further than do pagan men." - Jim Staal
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Christian child rapists
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:13:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab6
REPLY: 1:215/130 000656c1
PID: FM 2.02
FR> I wonder what percentage of tithes end up defending
fr> lawsuits and paying damages for rape.
ef> I have a newspaper article about the churches concern over
ef> laws suits and the author estimates the church has paid out
ef> between 400 million and 1/2 Billion in civil damages,
ef> compensation to victims, and (I think) court costs world-wide
ef> - and rising.
That's pretty amazing -- and it's only a small percentage of the rapes that
get to court or are settled before court. It doesn't indicate the number
of rapes which continue to go unreported.
ef> If these child-rapists represented any other field or line of
ef> work, I think there would have been blood in the streets by
ef> now, instead of almost complete silence or stories about
ef> individual cases without hinting at the scope of the practice
ef> among the clergy.
Amazing, isn't it? If the nation's police force were our rapeing children
in epidemic qualities like the Christian church's leaders do, the populace
_would_ be up in arms and demanding that the police agencies be cleaned-up
or closed until the problem is solved.
On "Sins of the Fathers" I saw some Catholic priests suggest that Christianity
be closed down until the problem is fixed. _Some_ Christians are at least
willing to admit that they have a serious -- fatal, even -- problem.
~*~ Be blessed. - Marguerite Kendall
Bite me. - Drew Webber
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:15:41
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab7
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdb9
PID: FM 2.02
js> Aww, try paying in 36.9% once,then come and cry in my ear.....
FR> How much of your money goes to the death cult you joined, Jim?
js> ......Enough to make it stronger than the "I
js> hate blacks and gays" group you belong to....
Actually, Jim, any hate group you can point to which hates blacks and gays
is going to be a Christanic group -- one of _your_ ideological friends.
Hatred and bigotry is nearly the venue of the deity religious.
But then you know that. You're part of the Christanic death cult.
~*~ A believer's mind seeks knowledge just as the vacuum inside a CRT
seeks air -- and for the exact same reason. - Sean McCullough
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:16:43
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab8
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdbb
PID: FM 2.02
DW> Your wife is a dumbass, Jimbo.
FR> That's true, for marrying you.
FR> Did she know you were a woman-hateing Promise Keeper _before_ she
FR> married you?
js> HEY SCROTUM HEAD! If you can't send mail correctly and to the right
js> persons, why don't you go back to the school of brainless morons you
js> came from and learn how? preferably your daddy's womb!
Why don't you just answer the question, Jim? Did you wife know about your
hatred and bigotry before she married you or did that all come about after
shemade the mistake? Which is it?
~*~ Why don't you just swim out 'til you find him??? - David Worrell
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Laughter at Lumpy Staal
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:17:26
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ab9
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdbf
PID: FM 2.02
SA> Funny, your writing looks like you are about 14
SA> and posting from a "teen chat" board....
js> "Funny,
js> your writing looks like.......".
FR> Sue is simply trying to help you, Jim. Don't get
FR> upset just because someone trys to help you.
js> You want to help Jim?
Are you trying to claim that you don't _need_ help, Jim?
~*~ [I] have some time available to attempt gently correcting the nasty
enemies of God in this echo. - Richard Thorneycroft
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Mark Staal the LUMP
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:18:54
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7aba
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdc0
PID: FM 2.02
Lu> Hey, Steve, URA redneck if your family tree does not
Lu> branch.....or...if your wife's not on a chain and your wallet
Lu> is....or..if you go to family reunions just to meet women....or...if
Lu> a sign saying, "SAY NO TO CRACK", Reminds you to pull your pants
Lu> up....or...if you mow your lawn and you find your
Lu> car.....or.............well, I'm sure you know all the rest....
Lovely. You certainly appear to be fragmenting.
DR> Yes, I would place you about 14 years old as well, Jim.
js> Well, then you and your brodder should
js> be able to relate to this then..
Inasmuch as we're both your intellectual superiors and have a bit of experience
observing pathologic behavior, yes, Jim, we do.
~*~ ROFL!!! ......... I just laughed my nuts off.
- QUENTIN FAI
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Staal shows his colonic brother
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:20:34
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7abb
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdc1
PID: FM 2.02
js> Na, I still believe in God no matter what you try to convince me
FR> No matter what truth debunks you, Jim. That's a fundy.
js> .....I would bet a buck you rub yourself too, because noone
js> else could get close enough to your stench of dung on your body.
Jim, your spelling just gets worse as the time you spend off your medication
grows longer. Your rabidity and hatred also gets worse. Can't you see
what the death cult you joined has done to you? Can't you see what going
off your medication has done to you?
~*~ Roger seems to have missed his sugar coating at his second birth.
- Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:22:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7abc
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdc2
PID: FM 2.02
DR> All your personalities together, huh, Jim?
SA> Don't forget the condoms!
FR> Sue could do this for a living.
That's true.
DR> You can't get yourself preggers when you jack off thinking about
DR> yourself, Jim. (That goes for all your multiple personalities.)
Undeniably true.
js> So how do you explain how your father got preggers..
Interesting. The Christanic death cultist doesn't appear to know even the
simplest of biology. No doubt it's the result of joining a death cult whos
masters program you to believe that education is "Satanic," Jim.
~*~ Mark 16:15-18. I'll use chemistry, you use the Bible.
You will be deader than your saviour. - George Rudzinski
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:26:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7abd
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdc3
PID: FM 2.02
Lu> know I should'ntna spent that much on a toy, but, I guess I shoulda
Lu> waited." Still haven't paid it off or even made a payment yet and
Lu> believe me she hasn't let me live it down even as of
Lu> yesterday."LUMPY*@!*&^@!*"!
Another example of why the Christanic death cult has the history it does.
SA> Another example of those fine Christian values of yours...lying,
SA> manipulation, and stealing. You should be proud. (gag)
Proud to be a Christanic cultist incapable of morality.
js> .....Sometimes that's the only way to shut
js> somebody up and get them off your back...
DR> By showing them once again what a homophobic,
DR> anti-woman bigot you are, jim?
js> ....SO, Dave or Fred Or george, why don't you just admit that you
js> change the ID on my posts to look like Jim's and then you will
Why don't you get back on your medication, Jim, and stop suffering under
these nearly pathologic delusions you're experiencing? I'm sure your doctor
has warned you of what would happen and here it is undeniably happening
to you.
Got great news: been off the medication for months now.
Life is indeed good! - Jim Staal (suffers from MPD)
Medication (and science) is _GOOD_ for you, Jim.
~*~ The 'baby' doesn't exist in Christanity. It was a myth
designed to justify the bath water. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:27:05
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7abe
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdc4
PID: FM 2.02
NS> It's obvious from your post that you haven't got a clue about
NS> anything that Pagan families would do. And, talk about the niceness
js> I was under the assumption that pagans
js> didn't have families, but rather flocks....
FR> That's because your cult masters want to keep you ignorant,Mark, of
FR> life-affirming religions. Otherwise your death cult would drop ever
FR> more quickly in club membership.
js> .....Uh huuh huh, My name's Fred...I'm one of the
js> intelligent gorillas please don't feed me!
Your hatred of women and your bigotry against Pagan women is ugly, Jim.
It's also typically Christian, sadly.
~*~ Love you? I don't even like you. - Jesus
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fred's finally making a dent in your foggy brain
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:29:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7abf
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdc9
PID: FM 2.02
js> After much consideration, I have decided
js> that it is time to leave the echo.
Ain't it funny how you never left?
FR> Liar. You'll be here until you're cured. Count on it.
My prophecy came true!
js> Actually, looking back, my job was finished
js> long ago and I didn't realize it.
FR> We knew all about Christianity before you showed up, Jim. Your job
FR> was already done for most of us decades before you showed up.
FR> But thanks anyway.
Which is quite true, Jim. We knew about Christianity long before you came
here and vindicated what we all knew about the death cult.
js> nest time send it to the right person MORON.
Next time lose the bigotry, Jim. Lose the death cult.
~*~ "Close your eyes, click your heels together 3 times and yell IS NOT!!"
- Quentin Fai
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:31:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7ac0
PID: FM 2.02
> HOW TO HANDLE FEAR
> Read: Psalm 56
> Whenever I am afraid, I will
> trust in You. -Psalm 56:3
HOW TO USE FEAR TO CONTROL THE IGNORANT
Read: Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922
"And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we
are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as
a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look
on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at
the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness
and misery.
~*~ If I repent anything, it will probably be my good behavior. - Marty
Leipzig
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 03 Mar 96 11:40:03
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1f89eb24
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337696
PID: FM 2.02
sr>> I have heard at least two other glaring technical-prop
sr>> continuity screw-ups, too. Guess the hoaxers didn't do
sr>> their homework well enough! :)
FR> Someone also pointed out that the model
fr> of the telephone used didn't exist at the time.
sq> As I recall, the second special they did
sq> indicated that it DID exist. So which is it?
I would tend to accept the CSICOP evaluation of the props which state that
the telephone depicted on the wall didn't exist at the time purported.
CSICOP and various other publications also commented upon the environmental
suits that were used which indicatedno breathing equipment. The environmental
suits couldn't have been used to stop microbes or other biological hazards
nor could they have been used to stop radiation. It was concluded that
the environmental suits were used to keep from identifying the hoaxsters.
sq> [I just want to know why there are no instances of alien
sq> visits until 'round the time of the "modern age" and wild
sq> thoughts that turned into science fiction.]
Believers will tell you tha5t's because mass communication didn't exist.
~*~ A year long global flood? Sure...Why is there no evidence then? - ML
Umm... "the evidence was destroyed in the flood." - Styx Allum
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Many gods
|Date: 03 Mar 96 11:58:04
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1f89eb25
REPLY: 1:124/9005 313376de
PID: FM 2.02
MH> on. This place looks like a battleground. I take it from your post
mh> that you place no faith in Christ. I am totally dedicated to Him.
FR> I'm totally dedicated to Zeus. Imagine.
sq> I'm dedicated to staying alive and living comfortably. Is this where
sq> someone comes along and facetiously tries to suggest that this is my
sq> "god?"
Wait a minute... I don't see any way to get money out of you. That can't
be right.
~*~ I still can't make heads or tails or heads or
tails or heads or tails. . . out of it. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Christian death cult bigotry
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:11:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c68
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337712
PID: FM 2.02
rm>> Is it? I think there was a case in California where a Christian
rm>> org didn't hire someone on the basis that the person wasn't a
rm>> practicing Christian. The org one the lawsuit.
FR> Christanics are always winning (stop spelling it "one") their right
to
FR> bigotry and hatred.
sq> Language majors are always "whining" when someone spells it "winning."
Even when they're Englisg majors? }:-}
~*~ The fossil record does not support evolution. - Raoul Newton
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = gotcha!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:21:34
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c69
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337791
PID: FM 2.02
FL>> ... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 37 days.
MH>> Of course, those atheists almost certainly *are* hypocrites.
sq> Hey, I just registered two programs that I've been
sq> using for six - years.- Why is this hypocritical?
Six years! Were you waiting for the company to go out of business? }:-}
sq> _I_ don't have a holy book that says "Thou shalt not steal,"
sq> and I DID pay for the fucking software, unlike so many of the
sq> Fundies who traipse through here.
The atheist/humanist ethic is vastly superior for that very reason.
FR> Is it any wonder why fundies _never_ win an argument?
sq> Chuckie Rollins is currently being helped out of the elevator
sq> by yours truly over in RA_UTIL. Fred, I tell you: I talk to
sq> some really thick people on the phones and on Compuserve, but
sq> this guy is -dense.-
Like any fundy he's made up his mind he's going to live a life of crime.
}:-}
~*~ I saw God and the Devil several times during the '70s. - jonny vee
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: in His own butt-ugly image
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:25:57
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c6a
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337818
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Take care else I'll have Assmodify to curse you. }:-}
sq> I got a kick out of this "curse."
Yeah? I wonder if JJ's feeling headachey and faint yet. }:-}
sq> -My- return curse is that every time I hear the name "Asmodeus"
sq> or read it in a book, I'm going to be able to say "Hey, I've got
sq> a neat story to go with that." We may not know this clown's
sq> real name, but it sure is funny to think that so many can receive
sq> so much entertainment at his expense.
It's a HolySmoke touch stone. Sorta like "NOODLES" and "WE WANT YOUR CHILDREN!"
and "Creamy or Ranch?"
~*~ Are you willfully cherishing known sin? - Phil Morrison
Nah....I've been looking for new ones... - Gwenny The Pooh
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: All the Gods' Words
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:40:25
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c6b
REPLY: 1:124/9005 3133785b
PID: FM 2.02
jcj> I have many texts, having majored in history.
And majored in stupidity. (Knock! Knock! Knock! Jesse? You home? Hello?)
FR> And for some reason you pretend the Soviet Union was "evil."
sq> "Christmas trees," Fred. -Christmas trees.-
I forgot! (Like three times!) So kill a lawyer.
FR> Are you also an English major?
sq> In another incarnation, I bet he was. The onus
sq> was too difficult for him to bear, however.
In #holysmoke on undernet's IRC, we had a clown demand that he wasw a geology
major and he was pretending along the "global flood" ICR party line.
Here... I'll post the whole thing to All.
~*~ Yes, that's radiant heat. What does that have to do
with infrared? - ARTEMIS
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Sample #holysmoke lunacy
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:52:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c6c
PID: FM 2.02
The #holysmoke channel on Internet's Undernet servers is much
like what we see here on HolySmoke yet real time. The claims
that fundies make and the arguments they use to try to defend
them are exactly the same as we see here.
Here we follow a "Pagan priest" calling himself "praytor" who
claims there's evidence for a "global flood." Notice the "English
Major-like" background claim to start off the, um, debate. I'm
"Thomas" as in "doubting Thomas."
Here we have evidence that ignorance of geology and "global
flood" beliefs isn't entirely a Christanic superstition:
-=-
Thomas: My back ground is years as a geologist/Theol
ogian/historian what do you want here on this channel a lesson?
Thomas: exactly what more do you desire? You said
you wanted proof of the global flood. I told you wher to
find it. Now be a good little it and go read
> pray: You claimed you had extensive geological knowledge.
Prove it. Give me the name of a geological formation and
its location which supports your ignorance. DO IT NOW!
Thomas: never admitted nor was I asked if I was a
Christian, I'm not I'm a pagan priest. I just believe in
the global flood and that it did happen.
[...cuts... I elected to try another port and then sneak back.]
> pray: Star Goat will get you for lying to his chosen.
Thomas: Oh Great and mighty know it all just what
religion are you?
> pray: I'm in a religion which doesn't lie about its
acedemic achievements to try to lie his way out of an
undefendable belief.
Thomas: to embarressed to name your religion or did
I guess it
> pray: Didn't you LISTEN you ignorant fool?! The Restored
Church of the Star Goat is the ONLY TRUE religion which
originally was planetd on Earth and govomership was handed
to His Chosen -- StarGoat is one of them.
> pray: Well? I'm still waiting. Where's this evidence for
a "global flood" you lied about?
Thomas: Star Goat is another name for Satan and to
worship satan one must worship christ. Nes Pa
[Certainly sounds like a Christian fundy, huh?]
> pray: You're truely ignorant, fool. "Satan" is a Christian
god. Star Goat is the CREATOR God who made you. Your
blasphemy is to try to make Him a Christian God. That's
evil.
> pray: WHERE DID THE WATER COME FROM YOU LIAR?
Thomas: Dont really know where does the wind come
from. Where does the Earth come from? Where does life come
from? My what questions.
> pray: Where does the wind come from?! AMAZING!!! Well,
geological acedemic, DO YOU KNOW WHAT UNEVEN HEATING OF THE
EARTH'S SURFACE DOES?
> pray: Well? Answer up, fool! Just because YOU are
ignorant of something doesn't mean everyone else had better
be. We KNOW where wind comes from. We know about the
formation of the Earth. We have good ideas about the
formation and evolution of life.
Thomas: what wrong so flusterd you dont recognize
tongue in cheek answers. I alwasys give those type of
answeres to children
> pray: Oh, now your lies are "toung in cheek answers." Lovely.
[Kind of like Michael Hardy's "just kidding" defense.] }:-}
> pray: You're a liar. Name these gological formations and
give their locations, liar.
Thomas: The Trinity Basin, The Edwards Plateu, The
Contenital Divide to mane some. Recenly in the Ozarks a
sharks entire body was found in granite.
> pray: Provide evidence for a global flood, fool, not
evidence of plate tectonic and continental uplift!
Thomas: Try drilling an oil well some time and you
will learn a buch
[Interesting. I wonder if Marty's a Creationist now.]
Thomas: you are the dictionalries dicription of
ignorance. Look here according to Roget Ignore'ance: see
Thomas on #Holysmokes
[Getting close... the personal attacks are starting. He's
gonna pop.]
> pray: You claimed there is evidence for a global flood.
You presented evidence for plate tectonics and continental
uplift. I'm still waiting for your evidence you claimed to
have.
> pray: Come on, let's go. You made the claim, you provide
the evidence. Let's go.
RevDave: ME try Thomas he's the one that refuses to
take a walk to see the evidence of sharks teeth and fish
bones in the earth that do not come from earth upheavls
> pray: That's proof of plate tectonics and contimental
uplift. Ever hear of those you "geologist?"
> pray: Well? Ever hear of those in your geology classes?
Thomas: ever walked out side and seen the bones in
the earth. Oh I'm sorry your face is stuck in a puter and
your afraid to go outside
> pray: That's called fossilization, silly. I'm still
waiting for your evidence for a "global flood."
~*~ No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you were
gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not have
happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = gotcha!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:57:25
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c6d
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337912
PID: FM 2.02
MH>> Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
sq> Nonsense...we just don't worship an
sq> old book that says "Run, Dick, Run."
Or "kill, Christian, kill." It's amazing watching a fundy rant about morality.
My guess is he never read the mythologies he worships.
sq> I'm STILL out here wondering which of Mike's
sq> "rights" I violate if I commit suicide.
I guess we'll never know. He's too frightened of having to answer such
hurtful, mbarrassing questions.
jp>> They act so hurt when that is pointed out to them.
sq> How many of us went blue in the face trying to explain
sq> to this guy that he continues to be full of shit?
This is the nut who said, "the world would be a better place if everyone
didn't consider me a nut."
~*~ They sat down in the kitchen, where the morons started pulling out
bibles, books, pamphlets, and other assorted implements of destruction.
- Kelsey Bjarnason
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Quote mythology
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:58:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c6e
REPLY: 1:124/9005 313379f4
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Just because some watery tart throws a scimiter at
FR> you doesn't mean you get to wield supreme power.
FR> Oh! Now we see the violence inherant in the system.
FR> Help! Help! I'm being suppressed!
sq> ROFL! "Bloody peasant!"
"I've found some nice filth over here."
~*~ We'll have to slaughter innocent people who show how godly we are.
- Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Hardy's full of what-else as usual
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:04:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c6f
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 62d170bb
PID: FM 2.02
MH> Even evolutionists admit there is little fossil evidence of
MH> Darwinian evolution. Hence the need to invent punctuated
MH> equilibrium.
He's full of it. Biologists state that biology makes no sense if evolution
didn't happen and continue to happen. I know of no biologist who claims
that "there is little fossil evidence of Darwinian evolution."
mg> So are you denying that evolution took place?
He'll pull out a standard cop-out. His deities still made everything but
he'll demand that _some_ evolution took place afterwards -- just keep humans
out of it.
Punk Eek wasn't "invented" to explain-away the low fossilization of animals
and plants. Punk Eek was developed as a possible explanation for why there
are gaps in a geological record -- which another geologic area might or
might noit cover.
Hardy's so full of ignorance I'd bet his eyes are brown.
~*~ Ssshhhh! People are discovering that you're an imbecile. - Simon Ewins
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:05:39
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c70
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 62d197a6
PID: FM 2.02
mg> I dunno. In Mike's defense, some of the atheists here got on a few
mg> cases of theists not having registered software. Right is right and
mg> anyone that screams about unregistered softwre on once hand should
mg> scream about it whenever they see it.
It was a tag line. I've made it my origin line. }:-}
~*~ Your zeal is worthy of a better cause. - Phil Morrison
What better cause is there than freeing people from the mental slavery
that you and your compatriots try to inflict upon them? - Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: ARTICLES FOLLOW/ contents
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:07:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c71
REPLY: 1:215/130 00175e4e
PID: FM 2.02
ef> Pat Robertson:
ef> Scary look at the most powerful man in religion in America
That would be Adolf Hitler.
ef> And lots of other holy Child molesters
Great! Bring on the Christian child molesters!
ef> And more. I hate to dump it all at once but I'm going to be gone for
ef> a week or two and if I don't post them now I probably never will.
Are they on your computer? Can they be FileRequested?
~*~ All the gut-wrenching irony of America's low prioritization
of education is present in your origin line. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: HONEYMOON HARGIS
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:12:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c73
REPLY: 1:215/130 00175e61
PID: FM 2.02
ef> "Americans are tired of "educational professionals" operating
ef> in a vacuum, trying out whatever they wish, defying community
ef> standards, as they experiment with the minds of our precious
ef> children." -- Billy James "Honeymoon" Hargis
"..precious children." The same he later rapes?
My guess is he wants to stick with proven method of twisting young minds
-- like teaching them cult Christianity.
~*~ You've just blown your only chance at salvation. See you in Hell.
- John Silvester
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Fuck those chior boys for Jesus!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:29:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c74
REPLY: 1:215/130 00175e61
PID: FM 2.02
ef> Later, Noebel says, three more male students told him of
ef> having had sexual relations with Hargis over a period of
ef> three years. They said the trysts had taken place in Hargis'
ef> office, at his farm in the Ozarks, even during his tours
ef> with the college choir, the "All-American Kids."
Choir boys? How cliche!
ef> Noebel was told that Hargis justified his homosexual acts by
ef> citing the Old Testament friendship between David and Jonathan
ef> and threatened to blacklist the youths for life if they talked.
Cool. Justify it with mythology. I wonder what verses Swaggart used.
}:-}
ef> Noebel, a Hargis aide for twelve years, described how he felt when he
ef> first heard the students accounts: "For two weeks, I couldn't sleep.
I
ef> know we had to get Hargis off campus or we were going to lose the whole
ef> school."
This lovely Christian's only concern was the loss of the "school." I wonder
how old some of Hargis' sexual exploits were. So far it looks like all
of the participants were consenting adults.
ef> According to two of those present, Hargis, who has a wife, three
ef> daughters and a son, admitted his guilt and blamed his behavior
ef> on "genes and chromosomes."
What? No "Satan" excuse? I'm surprised! No "Satan told me to fuck them."
ef> Deprived of Hargis' name and his astounding money-raising talents,
ef> however, his former operations soon found themselves strapped for
ef> cash, and in September all but the college accepted Hargis' offer
ef> to return. The decision was risky, says Loyalist Jess Pedigo,
ef> president of Hargis' David Livingstone Missionary Foundation.
That's nonsense. There's no risk involved. The wanna-believe populace
don't remember from day to day which man-deity they give their money to
and, in any event, most don't care. Jimmy Swaggart and Jim/Tami Bakker
still rake it in.
ef> 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'
I'll gladly throw the first stone.
ef> Enrollment has dropped from 228 to 160, and since word of
ef> the scandal spread to parents one teacher has talked 25 of
ef> them into letting their children stay enrolled.
Strange. Bakker's "college" enrollment droped to the point where the "college"
closed. I wonder why this one didn't die.
ef> As for their parents, one father, who reports that his son's
ef> three-year involvement with Hargis began at age 15 or 16, wept
ef> as he said, "I will forgive him his sins because God's Word
ef> tells me what I must do, but I will never forget his acts
ef> against my son."
The moral high ground would have been to hunt Haggis down and execute him.
ef> The attack on the American family intensifies (2/94)
And its name is "Christianity."
ef> Note: This articicle is from the forthcoming book
ef> "If Hillary Says It's For the Kids, Grab Yours and Run"
Good idea! I hear Iran is accepting theocracy wannabes.
~*~ What are the dictates of my god ? - Paul Churchill
What ever your masters say they are. - Fredric L. Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: QUEEN DAVID??
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:36:19
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c75
REPLY: 1:215/130 00175e7e
PID: FM 2.02
ef> "And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place
ef> toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and
ef> bowed himself three times; and they kissed one another, and
ef> wept with one another, until David exceeded."
ef> Now what do you think it means when it says that David exceeded
ef> after all of this kissing, weeping and wallering on the ground?
ef> It means that he climaxed.
That one's a bit of a reach. What's the original Hebrew word used?
ef> Did you believe that it meant that David was a better kisser
ef> and weeper and he won some kind of contest? Get real.
~*~ Furthermore, if evolution were true, evolution would be natural.
There weren't chemist and biologists around 3000 million years
ago to direct it. - Bruce Willis
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Prewett's Christanic fantasies
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:41:29
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c76
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62cf8147
PID: FM 2.02
RJ> His home snailmail address acquired, so that printed transcripts
RJ> might be sent to his mailbox when he suddenly never posts in
rJ> HOLY_SMOKE again?
jjh> That I don't have. If he ever posted it I missed it (not
jjh> surprising, I delete large blocks of his messages unread).
I don't have a copy of his address either. It would be a mistake to post
it into HolySmoke anyway and he's probably not QUITE that stupid as to do
so.
Did you see his complaint about how the world would be a better place if
people wouldn't consider him a nut? David Rice's reply was classic.
~*~ "I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not
screaming in terror like his passengers." (nicked from Jim Harkins)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Changed fundy?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:47:37
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c77
PID: FM 2.02
ja> Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used to be.
That's doubtful. Unless you managed to acquire an education in the short
time it's been since you fled, you're still the fundy we all know and love.
I suspect that you still don't understand how scientific method debunks
most (if not all) of your deeply-held religious superstitions.
~*~ I doubt if you will be so flippant and cocky when you are trembling
at
the foot of God on judgement day, Marilyn. You *will* be judged
whether you like it or not. - Christian Soldier, HolySmoke forum.
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Medicated
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:48:25
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c78
PID: FM 2.02
> Does that mean that you gave up on your religion?
ja> Take it however you like.;) But just between you and me....
And, since you state it in a public broadcast forum, about 200 others.
}:-}
ja> let's say I have a new outlook on life.
I hope you went back on your medication.
~*~ "I'll leave when you stop believing in evolution, and
NOT before." -- Deeann Gatchell
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Rich Allen
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolung
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:51:23
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c79
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3132de97
PID: FM 2.02
EF>> There you go. I mean, you don't pretend to know more about
EF>> theology than a seminary trained clergyman do you?
AM> Some seminary schools are so secular, you can get a degree
AM> without even knowing the names of the books of the bible.
Does that include all the books which were _VOTED_ as "not true words of
gods?"
~*~ As for the road map, those roads are paved with the bodies of more
than one person who died not for your religion, but because of it.
- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF Cult's "HATE" 2
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:01:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c7a
PID: FM 2.02
DW>
DW> Yeah, Judith! What's yer fuckin' problem anyway? Don't you
DW> know that Dobson was only being "allegorical"?
jb> I'm still trying to figure out how New York moved to the west
jb> coast. Or maybe that was a hypothetical New York (or is that
jb> rhetorical...geez, it's so hard to keep these things straight.)
Ya just godda have _FAITH_ that New York is on the West Coast. Bow down
and _BELIEVE_! Just ignore what your mind is telling you. I mean, would
a charasmatic cultist lie?
~*~ And when you go to hell, i'll get the last laugh!
- Christopher Calabrese
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ANGELS...
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:04:16
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c7b
PID: FM 2.02
Dawn Kleuser
Who is still reading, I suspect.
>> MAILBOX WITH THE SNIDE COMMENTS. I WILL NOW BOW
>> OUT, NEVER TO BOTHER YOU AGAIN.
FR> "Snide comments..." Why not just answer
fr> our honest questions honestly?
jb> Shit...I missed it! From now on, I'm asking for a loaner
jb> if I have to take my machine into the shop.
Good idea!
~*~ ... In Jesus Christ name I bind all evil sprits off of this echo NOW.
- Steve Willis
I am an Evil Spirt. I'm still unbound. Your little spell didn't work.
- J. J. Hitt
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: CDA bans bible! - SPREAD THE WORD!!!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:10:21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c7c
REPLY: 1:123/67 3135c854
PID: FM 2.02
> I'd like to congratulate the Christian community for its success in
> making the Bible and discussion of many portions thereof illegal in
> cyberspace via the "Communications Decency Act"(CDA) amendment to the
> Telecommunications Reform Act of 1995.
Works for me. Now I'll have to remove the Christanic mythologies from my
system. I'll be sure to post a bulletin explaining why.
> a) A .GIF of necrophilia involving a child and a wildebeest.
Yeah? You got one of those? }:-}
~*~ So, how come there are no "talking snakes" nowadays? - Scot Vertullo
Because you are not righteous enough to hear them talk... - Raoul Newton
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: American Atheists
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:11:39
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c7d
PID: FM 2.02
cb> please do. i have received no communication of any kind.
fr> If you get a copy, let us know what's going on, okay?
cb> sure but Brian posted a copy and i reposted
cb> it elsewhere. did you see that?
I havent seen it, alas. Star Goat eats mail packets.
~*~ Do you have any evidence that Wiccans or Pagans eat people, Jesse?
- Fredric Rice
Read up on Africa. It might be an education for you. - Jesse Hornbacher
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:12:43
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c7e
REPLY: 1:271/460 31336d26
PID: FM 2.02
KM>> There are no other gods.
DR> What a stupid thing to say. Do you have any
dr> evidence that the gods do not exist?
km> The Bible.
The classical Christanic mythologies specifically state that there are many
gods. Why not read it once and learn the truth?
By the way: Drink up.
~*~ Hell hath no fury like the lawyer of a woman scorned... - Unknown
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it either, Ken
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:13:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c7f
REPLY: 1:271/460 31336e38
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> Either drink it or admit you're a fraud.
FR> Either drink up or admit you're a fraud.
>>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.....
SM> In other words, you're a fraud.
km> In other words, the attempt to try and make me doubt God because
km> others here misinterpet the Bible and think that those that are saved
km> are to drink poison to prove that they are saved, will not work.
In other words you're a fraud. You are trying in desperation to continue
to believe in the classical Christanic mythologies while at the same time
trying to desperately avoid the embarrassing truth.
~*~ 6:29 So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her
on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath
hid her son.
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Christian canabalism
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:15:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c80
REPLY: 1:3611/2 001b7c94
PID: FM 2.02
JO> Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
DM> You would appear to be the only one who has not. Consult
DM> the anthropology section of your library for further details.
jo> Of course I am aware of the practice of canabilism in certain religons,
jo> but I am trying to find out if any one has any information or knows
jo> where to find a specific link to a partictular christian ritual.
If you wish I could look up specific references to when and why the Christanic
ritual began to specifically state that the cookie actually becomes the
flesh of their gods. It's described in several places in "Holy Horrors."
~*~ No, the reason that you tout it is your conscience an
stand it better then Life from Life. - Ron Stringfellow
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Parker
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:25:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c81
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 134a6406
PID: FM 2.02
KDM> So, you gonna blow up another building?
tp> I didn't blow up any buildings and every Waco protestor that
tp> I know disaproves of that act. Now, a question for you.
Ah, yes. The ole "I'm not responsible. I'm just a member of the KKK and
we all disaprove of shooting nigras."
YOU are the idiot stick who continues to perpetuate the KNOWN lie "Waco:
The Big Lie." YOU are responsible, Terry. You and your fellow unsalted
nuts.
If you don't like America, try Iran.
~*~ It's what the world needs most: a God that TASTES GOOD. - J.J. Hitt
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: How many gods?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:27:48
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c82
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 1d503f00
PID: FM 2.02
KM> I and my Father are one. That makes ONE God.
DC> So, just who was your godling praying to? Some false god in heaven?
ks> Telling blow. Fast, short, and succinct. I've used that one
ks> many times. Funny, I can't remember ever getting an argument
ks> back....
ks>
ks> What's your answer to this one, Ken? Not that I expect one...
Typical Christanic cop-outs include "he was praying to a piece of himself."
~*~ Sex outside of a Christian marriage is unsafe whether
it is homosexual or not. - Dr. (sic) James Robertson
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:29:16
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c83
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org f0300253
PID: FM 2.02
js> HEY SCROTUM HEAD! If you can't send mail correctly and to the right
js> persons, why don't you go back to the school of brainless morons you
js> came from and learn how? preferably your daddy's womb!
ks> FUNDY MELTDOWN ALERT.
About twice a day now, in fact. }:-}
~*~ Did you know that whiskey was made to keep the Irish
from ruling the world? -
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jason Ballard
|Sub: Paganistic followers
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:34:59
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c84
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 6efc024f
PID: FM 2.02
JB> You are feeble minded and blinded but your so called paradise of lies
JB> when you die there will be no god to save you bastard..
But then neither will you. The difference is we don't concoct elaborate
superstitions to try to pretend to avoid the undeniable eventuality.
~*~ How can so many people be wrong in just one echo?
- Les Wilcox (Talking about FidoNet's HolySmoke echo)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:36:08
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c85
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3133b515
PID: FM 2.02
Kenneth Mcabee
KM> has given the final sacrifice, it is finished, no
KM> further sacrifice is required. Kenneth Mcabee
Amazing.
kc> So, while child sacrifice was hunky dory in the
kc> Old Testament, it's not okay now.
Ken's a LIAR.
And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
His own words.
~*~ Come on and dance with the devil, honey. - Steve Quarrella
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:38:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c86
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3133afb2
PID: FM 2.02
AM> Brian, its nice to see you read the bible, its a shame you don't know
am> what it means. You quoted instances when God was either smitting the
am> enemies of Israel, or chastising His own people. Have your parents
am> ever corrected you? Did it mean they didn't love. I let you know a
am> little secret, if they didn't correct you, it was because they didn't
am> love you.
FR> That justification for rape, torture, and murder is why the
fr> Christanic death cult has the history that it does, Andy.
FR> It's a pity that you agreed to become part of it.
am> Fredric, you read the sayings of Christ, and show me the justifcation
There were thousands of Christs, cultist. There are no known writings of
a "Jesus Christ," however. If you wish to use your death cult mythologies
to justify inhuman tyrannies, rape, torture, and murder, you had better
come up with some deities.
~*~ ARE THE MAJORITY OF YOU PEOPLE BABY RAPERS only held back from your
demented idealisms of torture and mayhem because of the constraints
ordained in the constitution? - David Stoddard
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Waco rememberance (how many die this time?)
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:44:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c87
REPLY: 1:157/200 5c0208ba
PID: FM 2.02
Tp> Waco Rememberance will start 1pm Saturday March 2, 1996 in Austin,
Tp> the Texas on south side of the Texas State Capital at 11th and
Tp> the Congress. Survivors of U.S. Govt assault of the Branch Davidians
tp> near Waco will be joined by sympathizers and protestors. At 3pm
tp> participants and sympathizers will gather at Hickory St Grill at 8th
tp> and Congress. Contact Jeff Davis for info at (512)331-9212.
kdm> So, you gonna blow up another building?
I haven't heard about another building blown up yet so I would guess that
the FBI is doing its job. They may decide to "remember" Waco later in the
year when security at government buildings declines.
~*~ Are you _sure_ that your appearance is the real reason for
your enforced celibacy? - jonny vee
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Robins
|Sub: QUOTE
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:49:27
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c88
REPLY: 1:247/312.0 3133a033
PID: FM 2.02
dr> If there was such evidence, then why
dr> doesn't everyone believe evolution?
Ignorance of scientific method is why so many people don't accept the directly
observable fact of evolution. Many Christanic cultists demand that "no
one knows what makes the wind blow" and then they fall silent when uneven
heating of the Earth's surface is described.
One no more "believes" in evolution than one "believes" in gravity. Both
are undeniable, directly observed facts. That some cultists believe that
science detracts from their superstitions is why they can't accept these
facts.
~*~ Much rather be a smart sheep than a dumb ass! - Jim Murray
Goes to show you don't always get what you want. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:51:13
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c89
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 b5ab11cd
PID: FM 2.02
>> .....FYI, Jim, Lon, Br.Jimmy and the rest of the alais'
>> have left the echo for good
SA> We've heard this story before. We know how it (never) ends.
SA> Jimbo has already slipped up a couple of times.
js> Only once, sir...ok...this twice.
You may not leave until _I_ say you may.
~*~ In the beginning was the Word... - Steve Bedard
And the word is destroy the non-believers... - Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:52:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c8a
REPLY: 1:228/45.2 31324791
PID: FM 2.02
FR> You two cultists would probably be happy
FR> in Iran -- you know, "one nation under god."
do> Does it suck to not have a life?
You'll let me know, won't you?
~*~ I wanted to go to Hell, but they sent me to Toys R Us instead!
- j. j. hitt
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Lack of any Evidence whatsoever
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:54:00
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c8b
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 52088e1d
PID: FM 2.02
jB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
DR> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
jb> No, I mean the complete and total lack of evidence of the
jb> absence of God (or "gods," as you're so fond of putting it).
You might as well complain about "Pixic evolution" and then demand that
since there's no evidence that pixies don't exist, they do.
Ignorance, John, makes you a fundy. Dishonesty keeps you.
~*~ Mark 16:15-18. I'll use chemistry, you use the Bible.
You will be deader than your saviour. - George Rudzinski
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:54:57
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c8c
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1353e2cb
PID: FM 2.02
KC> Indeed. Is this the same god that killed a soldier who tried to keep
KC> the Ark of the Covenant(tm) from touching the ground?
jp> Yep. So what ?
Welcome to why the Christanic death cult has the history that it does.
And you're a willing part of it.
~*~ "...this would be the best of all possible worlds, if
there were no religion in it." - John Adams
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:56:21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c8d
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62dcf4da
PID: FM 2.02
jjh> They are clearly not doctors or pathologists studying the greatest
jjh> scientific discovery of the last few centuries. They act like bored
jjh> hacks chopping up a bag of garbage.
Yeah, various publications note that they cut out parts and put them into
containers which were taken away -- no attempt to document how each little
thing was connected to another.
~*~ Yes, but guessing such counterintuitive facts as the world is round
is pretty far-fetched. - Michael Hardy (A fundie)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Christian canabilism
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:57:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c8e
REPLY: 3:711/933 313316aa
PID: FM 2.02
JO> A person recently told me that the early beginnings of the christian
JO> ritual of holy comminuion were rooted in canabilism.
ags> This is absurd.
We know. And yet Christanics still practice the ritual. Amazing, huh?
~*~ Oh wait! I feel the spirit of the lord pounding against
my heart again! Nope. False alarm.
Carry on. }:-} - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:00:35
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c8f
REPLY: 1:352/266 313500D5
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Many cultists today try to force their occultism into the public
FR> schools in an attempt to staunch the flow of blood, so-to-speak, that
FR> is draining cult membership acorss the board. An educated populace
FR> is an unbelieving populace and so cultists are trying very hard to
FR> damage the population's education.
mm> I disagree. I really do not see exposure to any information, be
mm> it factual, fanciful, or mythological as damaging to education.
That's the argument from ignorance. Lemarkianism in the old Soviet Union
caused the Soviets' educational system in biology and all remated sciences
to fail utterly. Creationism in States like Alabama and Georgia in the
United States has made those two states the lowest acedemical arenas in
the United States. "Whole language" here in California has placed the State
of California at the VERY BOTTOM of the rest of the United States in literacy.
Teaching ignorance to a populace damages it beyond measure.
~*~ No. 2 Thou shall not use thy lord's name in vein.
- Christopher Calabrese (a fundy)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: One Staal (Under his god. And moveing.)
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:02:44
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c90
PID: FM 2.02
ns> paper screaming `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!' over and over is no
ns> picnic. You really have to crank up the radio and then your
ns> neighbors complain. Better a quick death, I think . . .
FR> Well, I could gag the poor fools and make them watch Carl Sagan's
FR> "Cosmos" several times straight through until they stop being
fr> fundies.
ns> Would that work? };) I'll go out and get the series . . .
I'm willing to give it a try. }:-}
~*~ Got great news: been off the medication for months now. Life is
indeed good! - Jim Staal (suffers from MPD)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:06:15
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c91
PID: FM 2.02
MG> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
am> Jim Jones was a pyschotic.
FR> Jim Jones was a highly respected Christian who was known through
FR> America for his soup kitchens, money collections, clothes
FR> collections, and all around good works. He was just as Christian
FR> as you are.
ns> . . . and he made a _mean_ Kool-Aid . . . };)
And yet we have cultists in this very forum demanding thatthey can drink
poison and live -- their mythologies tell them so.
~*~ Yes we do debunk your biblical stories because they ARE debunk able.
- Tim Bennett
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Christian death cult bigotry
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:12:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c92
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3135e8bc
PID: FM 2.02
FR> In America it's not illegal to hate inniocent people.
kc> Indeed.
kc> And that's just the way I want it.
I wouldn't want it any other way either... just so long as the hatred and
bigotry can be repeatedly pointout out and denounced. We have that right
in the United States.
kc> What, do you want to make it illegal and have them _hide_
kc> their hatred? We allow openness in free speech mainly so
kc> we can recognise those that _are_ dangerous.
Which is why I advocated the reinstatement of Steve Winter in FidoNet.
kc> And here you thought it was because of some higher moral. ;)
I can think of none higher.
~*~ Blatant self-inflicted punishment...such as having to read your posts.
- Steve Rose
I believe God had it planned for you to read them all along.
- Nathan Dutton
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:14:35
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c93
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3135e8bf
PID: FM 2.02
JP> Kinda like when God sent angles to shepherds to announce
JP> Messiah's birth,.... stead of sending them to the big shots.
FR> The gods always speak through the uneducated.
ns> God sent 'angles'? How did he know they
ns> were the 'right angles' to send?
FR> He hasn't a 'ray' of hope of answering that.
kc> You really have crossed the line. This entire argument
kc> is perpendicular to the original speaker's intent.
But his whole point wasn't real. It was just a fraction of the myth.
~*~ So why do you stick around? - Steve Quarrella
To combat the evil. - Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Lunatic Christian nut
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:17:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c94
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3135e8c5
PID: FM 2.02
For nearly twenty-two years I've realized the
allegedly dead JFK is the final supreme "beast."
- John Prewett
Hey, Christian guys and gals! Do you understand that your lunacy is no
different than John's?
~*~ Those menacing atheists with their dangerous questions
are coming! Run for your lives! - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Get your education off of television
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:20:36
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c95
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3135cd86
PID: FM 2.02
Andrew Masten
AM>> In the words of a famous scientist aboard the U.S.S.
am>> Enterprize, " I find that highly illogical."
FR> Try "Enterprise." Do you get _all_ your education
FR> from television actors playing scientists, Andy?
dw> I'm glad someone else found that as amusing as I did. Now we
dw> see why Andrew has such a poor grasp of what science really is.
Yeah, I have a feeling that Creationists get _all_ their "science education"
off of television -- and from their masters, of course. I still insist
that it's observationally true that many of them get their beliefs in their
"Satan" god from entertainment sources.
~*~ You don't need "faith" to believe Richard Dawkins; you need
an education. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Many gods
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:21:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c96
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3134d19e
PID: FM 2.02
sq> no sheep to be found underneath. The
sq> wolves then eat the Bible thumpers.
FR> Us vegetarian wolves must settle for metafundies, I guess.
dw> Calling Brawley a vegetable is very hurtful and empty of you, Fred.
Perhaps it was my growing up in the Soviet Union what dun it. }:-}
~*~ I'm new to FIDONET (is this fidonet?) - Aaron Green
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:24:47
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c97
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3135ce58
PID: FM 2.02
>>> Waco Rememberance will start 1pm Saturday March 2, 1996 in Austin,
>>> Texas on the south side of the Texas State Capital at 11th and
>>> Congress.
FR> Are you clowns going to blow up another federal building this year?
Today's the 4'th and so far the body count has remained stable. There has
been nothing in the news about "remembering" Waco yet so I suspect the FBI
is doing their job successfully.
dw> I'm hoping they get real brave and decide to attack an Army post or
dw> something similar. The 7th Light Infantry HQ would do nicely. Maybe
I
dw> ought to send Terry a map that he can pass on to his friends. :)
That would KICK! I would gladly donate $100.00 to these unsalted nuts to
buy ammunition for such a venture. Just think about it! These unsalted
nuts take over a National Guard Armory and they can really dig in and stay
put, safeguarding American Liberty.
~*~ You got to remember, though, that if locusts and other animals are
unclean, where did they come from? How could a perfect god make vile
creatures that his pets couldn't touch? - Dan Ceppa
Maybe they were a by product of creation? - Bill Wolff
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Ignorance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:26:49
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c98
PID: FM 2.02
> OUR SOURCE OF SAFETY
> Read: Psalm 57
> In the shadow of Your wings
> I will make my refuge.
> -Psalm 57:1
YOUR SOURCE OF DEATH CULTISM
Read: History
The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is
the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations
can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories
of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius
Caesar..." - Thomas Paine
~*~ EVERYONE FROM THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. - Christopher Calabrese
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Ignorance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:27:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c99
PID: FM 2.02
> A POCKETFUL OF DYNAMITE
> Read: Romans 12:9-21
> Let all bitterness, wrath, anger,
> clamor, and evil speaking be put
> away from you. -Ephesians 4:31
A PLANET FULL OF DEAD BABIES
Read: History
"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian
churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing;
it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it
has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of
no conclusion." - Thomas Paine
~*~ Forgive him, Father. He knows not what he does. - Clayton Davis
I am =NOT= your father! You're someone else's bastard. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Ignorance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:28:41
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c9a
PID: FM 2.02
> A WISE WAY TO PRAY
> Read: Proverbs 30:1-9
> Remove falsehood and lies far from
> me; give me neither poverty nor
> riches. -Proverbs 30:8
A WISE WAY TO MURDER AND JUSTIFY IT WITH DEITY CONSTRUCTS
Read: Adolf Hitler
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and
is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions
of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both
Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the
most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams,
letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
~*~ People bitch about "how bad our kids are today." Bullshit! Look at
the PARENTS! The parents are failing their kids as well, not just
the kids failing their parents. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Ignorance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:29:29
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c9b
PID: FM 2.02
> RUSHMORE REMINDER
> Read: Joshua 4
> These stones shall be for a
> memorial to the children
> of Israel forever.
> -Joshua 4:7
DEATH CULTISM REMEMBERED
Read: History
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great
reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles
were departed from by those who professed to be his special
servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving
mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and
State." - Thomas Jefferson, to S. Kercheval, 1810
~*~ Ah, yes. The Bible: the Christian's Mein Kampf. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Your Daily Ignorance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:30:28
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c9c
PID: FM 2.02
> HOW PRAYER WORKS
> Read: Psalm 20
> May the Lord answer you
> in the day of trouble.
> -Psalm 20:1
HOW SLAUGHTER AND RAPE BY CHRISTIANS WORKS
Read: World History
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden
people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the
lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well
as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their
own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
~*~ May they suffer the agonies of their sins and wail in pain as the
burning fires of hell consume their flesh. I only wish I could be
there to light the oven, to be honest. - William Stone
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Nuts Am I?!?!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:33:07
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c9d
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62e3eacf
PID: FM 2.02
DR> Why, John! I'm surprised you even consider the idea. After
DR> all, it's not you who is "nuts:" it's the people who believe
DR> J.F.K. is dead who are nuts! I mean, like, only SANE people
DR> believe that J.F.K. will appear to rise from the dead and
DR> take over the planet (with Henry Kissenger) for Satan---
DR> everyone who DOESN'T believe this are "nuts!"
jjh> You took the tinfoil off of your head, didn't you?
I saw John F. Kennedy after I took off _my_ foil hat.
~*~ Homosexuality and liberalism IS evil... Both are destined to fail...
- Joe Savelli
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:34:38
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c9e
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62e4051e
PID: FM 2.02
FR> What the Goddess Hel does the Religious Reich need with a
FR> "support line?" What kind of information are they expecting
FR> to give out? Or is it a line which takes donations?
jjh> It's nothing but a name, address and credit card number
jjh> opperation. They have no "information". They don't even
jjh> seem to know anything about the candidate they are supporting.
Yeah? Neat! I wonder if I could get in on this scam. It's a fucking shame
that I have higher ethics than this otherwise I could retire after a year
or so of honest effort.
~*~ "History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade
of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders
will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- Thomas Jefferson, to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Scientology cult
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:38:53
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c9f
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62e6def0
PID: FM 2.02
JJH> CUTS! CUTS! CUTS! ALWAYS WITH THE FUCKING CUTS!
DR> The sanitized versons are for legal reasons.
jjh> CUTS! CUTS! CUTS! ALWAYS WITH THE FUCKING CUTS!
In fact if you noticed, I had to cut from many of my $cientology
files and I posted a header onto nearly every one of them (over 700) explaining
that the file may have been self-censored. The cult is serious about going
after detractors. The fact that they have never won a case and that they
owe millions of dollars to individuals around the world doesn't stop them
from trying to silence critics.
DR> Even a very brief three-sentence outline of OTIII being
DR> posted on the Internet has been subject to harassing
DR> lawsuits from the cult.
jjh> Which is to say that their stategy for silencing those
jjh> who would expose them has been 100 percent successful.
They have their successes, yes, but they're not 100% successful. The dred
Fishman affidavit is one of their primary targets and yet it's posted in
dozens of WEB sites around the world. The cult vowed to hunt them all down
and launch a lawsuit against each and every one of them and the only result
has been a growing number of sites which post it.
~*~ How many days of the week are named after *Christian* gods? - Brian
Kolacy
April Fool's Day - Rob Burcham
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Your Daily Excretement
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:39:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca0
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62e6e64c
PID: FM 2.02
DR> How about the YMCA? I see women there all the time,
DR> try going to a YWCA, if they don't call the police they
DR> will chase you out themselves with lesbians, I know because
DR> I went and tried to walk in.
DR> -- 04-21-95 Brice Wellington
jjh> I love it!
"We want your children! We want your children!"
~*~ ... Rush Limbaugh gay? That's enough to make homosexuals homophobic.
- David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Your Daily Alien buttfuck idiot
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:42:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca1
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62ea097d
PID: FM 2.02
jjh>> These special Androids are born in a controlled process
jjh>> using living oranic material capable of being programmed
jjh>> with human intelligence to perform specific tasks.
FR> With people like these believers, one wonders why they
FR> settled for human intelligence.
jjh> I have seen Our Daily Idiot George Mooth in
jjh> almost a week. Maybe he got abducted....
Naw, I saw the ignorant fuck post on the first of March. My guess is that
he's incapable of thinking for himself and spews with the hopes that his
deities won't notice he's making them look as bad as they are.
Could be, perhaps, that he's been reading your "Bartoo" posts and has started
to believe them. }:-}
~*~ You are nothing but a stupid atheist pig, with the IQ of a democrat.
- Christopher Calabrese
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Hardy pretends there's nothing wrong with murdering children
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:45:31
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca2
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62ea1c2d
PID: FM 2.02
MH> If so, then I believe the innocent children who, unfortunately,
MH> lost their physical lives, gain eternal life in heaven and thus
MH> aren't punished at all. - Michael Hardy
Wonderful.
FR> Lovely. Once again we're reminded why the Christanic death
FR> cult has the bloody history that it does. "Why not kill
FR> them? They're not really hurt or anything."
jjh> Aint it great!
About as great as hanging children by the neck in closets to "drive Satan"
out of them, yep.
jjh> Aborting a fetus is "murder".
jjh> But cold blooded murder of a innocent child is merely "unfortunate".
And for their own good.
jjh> In fact, being disemboweled by a Bronze Age
jjh> nomadic Hebrew savage is actually a good thing.
Yeah, keeps them from "sinning" against the Death Gods. Kill them now while
they're young so they "go to heaven."
jjh> Typical Christian morality in action: ANYTHING WE
jjh> DO is a blessing; anything YOU do, is a vile sin.
Yeah. As someone said, when someone steps up to "save" you, grab a gun.
~*~ My kids are the four-legged kind. - Marguerite Kendall
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Quote, strange
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:47:12
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca3
PID: FM 2.02
In cyberspace no one knows you're naked. - J. J. Hitt
~*~ They will murder a living baby outside of the womb by lethal injection.
- Raoul Newton
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Christian Blow Jobs
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:48:41
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca4
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62ecb302
PID: FM 2.02
JP>> This is called "free enterprise" at work.
JP>> It's part of what made America the most free and
JP>> properous nation the world had ever seen.
FR> Just ask [any] Negro ten years ago.
jjh> Don't you just love it how Prewett can sit on his butt collecting
jjh> assistance money while makeing pronouncements about how things
jjh> should be in the workplace?
Like, "Get them wimmin outa the work place?"
I didn't know that Prewett was on disability. Let me guess: A mental problem?
~*~ "Pi = 3, no error at all - Jesus is God, so listen to Paul! With
faith in your Babble, beat Satan at Scrabble! Type things to hide
your illiterate scrawl." - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Doctrine occultism
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:49:41
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca5
PID: FM 2.02
bj> I would like to thank that friend that passed this track to me
So that you wouldn't have to put forth the effort of actualling having to
think for yourself, right?
~*~ Take a hard look at the Grand Canyon. try to explain
that through evolution. - Freddie Cash
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Baptism rituals
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:51:01
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca6
PID: FM 2.02
bj> Many false preachers (accursed of God) teach that baptism is merely
bj> "An outward profession of inward faith" or some such nonsense...
Before you can demand what are "accursed" by your gods and what aren't "accursed"
by your gods, you need to present evidence for the existance of these gods
of yours, otherwise you're putting the horse before the cart.
Have any evidence for these invisible playmates of yours? Any at all?
~*~ You're threatening to attack someone with an onion. - J.J. Hitt
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:52:15
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca7
PID: FM 2.02
jjh> I called 1-800-GO-PAT-GO, repeatedly.
>> "I don't know. This is a support line."
FR> What the Goddess Hel does the Religious Reich need with a "support
FR> line?" What kind of information are they expecting to give out? Or
is
FR> it a line which takes donations?
ns> What scares me is the concept of a huge group hug
ns> with Pat and the rest of the wallet-lifters. Maybe
ns> they all sit in a circle and say:
ns> "Hi, my name is Pat, and I'm a Republican . . . "
ns> "Hi, Pat . . . "
It looks like they're just another Christian scam to liberate believer's
money.
~*~ I was merely trying to get him to see a way out of
homosexuality if he should ever choose to. - Johnny Mckinney
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Staal shows his Christianity
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:56:26
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca8
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Your hatred of women and your bigotry against Pagan women
FR> is ugly, Jim. It's also typically Christian, sadly.
ns> Now, don't be too harsh on Jim.
I thought I was being nice to him for once.
ns> He's insecure.
Stand on a milk crate and say that!
ns> He hates Pagan women because they're more manly than he
ns> is, stronger than he is, more intelligent than he is
ns> (actually, my pet hampsters are more intelligent, but
ns> that's another discussion entirely!), and they get to have
ns> free will as well as other fun things such as nakedness in
ns> church, sexual freedom, etc., whereas he has to suffer
ns> under the yolk of Wilbur and his `living-dead god'.
I agree with you totally. (Er, "Amen, Brother Sykes!") My guess is that
the thought of a woman who "doesn't know her place" is antithema to Christianity
and as such is considered "Satan's defilement" every time a woman speaks
up and defends herself against Promise Keepers like Staal.
~*~ That proliferative query is as ambiguious as your probable parentage.
- Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Medication?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:57:58
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081ca9
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3135acb9
PID: FM 2.02
JA> Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used to be.
lb> Joanna -- I'm interested. :) And glad to see you back. In
lb> what way have you changed? Catch us up on what's been happening
lb> in your life.
I hope the ignorant fuck is at least back on her medication. It should
be interesting to see if she realized that her doctors know what's better
for her far more than her priests.
~*~ There are alot of people on this board who will one day get the shock
of their life when the are standing before God, and he reads back their
posts, and asks them to give account of what they said. I wish I could
be there.... - Doug Brewer
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Tom Hart
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 04 Mar 96 11:59:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081caa
PID: FM 2.02
MH> THEIST: Obviously, it's either a metaphor or a
mh> matter of perspective. ATHEIST: SALAD BAR!!!
th> Tell me, what is metaphor/perspective or not literal in your bible?
It appears that this Salad Bar Christian picks and chooses what's "allegory"
and what's "really true" depending upon whatever is expedient at the moment.
~*~ Okay, then, remember this bit of advice: when a girl asks to see your
sex organs, stick out your tongue and hold up a finger - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Hack that loan file!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:01:51
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cab
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 31366387
PID: FM 2.02
As> Heh. I find it humorous how the whitelighters rely
as> so much on their Gods to protect them.
ns> It's about as funny as some insipid goat-worshiper believing he has
ns> ultimate power because he worships an artificial-entity construct.
FR> Hey! As a minister with the Restored Church of the Star Goat I take
FR> umbrage! (Er, whatever that is.) And I ain't giving it back!
FR> Take care else I'll have Assmodify to curse you. }:-}
rj> Cool. I could use a magical disappearance of my student loan file.
I can arange that. The very last computer I hacked was the library
storage files at Orange Coast College where I removed people's overdue book
fees -- for a fee. After I got caught I gave up (pretty much) further hacking.
~*~ Psychiatrists are in business for one reason only, to control or
kill as many beings as possible. - Scott Rider
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: All the Gods' Words
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:02:50
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cac
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 31366388
PID: FM 2.02
jcj> I have many texts, having majored in history.
FR> And for some reason you pretend the Soviet Union was "evil."
FR> Are you also an English major?
rj> With a blackbelt, 140 IQ, and SEAL training...
They don't train people with shit for brains. And they _certainly_ don't
train people who have the potential to later become lawyers.
~*~ COME ON!!!!!! LET'S SEE SOME SWEAT!!!!! PRRRRRRRRRRAY HARRRRRRDER!!!
- Quentin Fai
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:03:21
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cad
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 31366389
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Oh? People who join the Christian cult knowing what its history has
FR> been and continue to be are in agreement with it. One doesn't join
FR> the KKK and then demand they're not racists, Eric.
rj> No, they do. They're just lying sacks of
rj> shit when they say it, that's all.
I sit corrected.
~*~ I had two margaritta's, and was eyeing the women like
a deer eyes oncoming headlights. - David Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Christanic canabilism rituals
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:04:40
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cae
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 31366392
PID: FM 2.02
JO> For a way of background on why I want to know... A few years ago, my
JO> wife became a "Born Again Christian" and is constantly bring home crap
JO> about "hidden messages" in music, avertising, etc., etc. These brain-
rj> You have my condolences. Seriously.
Can you imagine?! There's grounds for divorce. Mental instability.
~*~ If you are gonna quote, try quoting what the _OTHER_ person said...
- Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Charles Sumner
|Sub: Church&State Echo
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:05:14
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081caf
REPLY: 1:2613/240.0 31366745
PID: FM 2.02
> The Fidonet echo called Church&State has had limited distribution for
> several months. Now I am informed that it is back in full distribution.
> However, I suspect that there are numerous nodes which will need to be
> reminded of its availability again.
About time! I'm linking in.
~*~ Fundies are like the Borg: Separate them from the rest of the
collective consciousness and they malfunction. :)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Violating physics -- use a condom. Staal
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:08:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb1
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 231c571b
PID: FM 2.02
FR> to you. You fancy yourself as another Galileo.
FR> Er, yes, you _are_ a Creationist. You adopt an occultic superstition
FR> and then cast about in desperation to find evidence you can use which
FR> could be lied about to support your delusion. You pick words and
FR> phrases you can't understand and concoct wild and elaborate fantasies
FR> and call it a "theory."
jb> (*sigh*) As an exercise in typing, I'm going
jb> to take that apart for the readership:
Interesting. Not even an attempt to defend your occultism, I see. But
some day we'll all learn, huh? Yeah, some day we'll all look back at Brawley
and -- with mouths agape -- wonder at our own foolishness for ever having
doubted his religious beliefs. The world really is banana shaped and we're
all gonna learn the truth some day, huh?
~*~ Sorry, I must have misunderstood your question. I believe that the
Holy Spirit caused on of Mary's eggs to become a fetus without sperm.
- Steve Bedard
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Lack of any Evidence whatsoever
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:09:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb2
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 6f5b542e
PID: FM 2.02
jB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
dr> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
FR> Yeah, besides that.
jb> Yeah, besides that.
What's wrong with Pixic evolution?
~*~ Does that include those who sacrificed their first born children,
or just the ones who eat their enemies. - Jesse Hornbacher
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:09:58
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb3
REPLY: 3:711/933 31361950
PID: FM 2.02
ags> Not even though human and dinosoar footprints are found together.
Interesting claim. Where are these footprints, Tony?
~*~ It's a good thing I shook your cage and then jumped out
of
reach. The animals have found new and interesting things to do with
their excrement. - Fredric Rice (To Bill Wolff)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Quotes
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:11:52
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb4
REPLY: 1:352/266 31367C9F
PID: FM 2.02
FR> HOW TO USE FEAR TO CONTROL THE IGNORANT
FR> Read: Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922
mm> I've been reading your postings of these little quotes. I
mm> would love to know it there is a book that has these quotes
mm> arranged in such a wonderfully obvious manner. If there is,
mm> I want a copy!
I pull in a great many quotes from my extensive archives. The Adolf Hitler
quotes have been accumulated over the span of six years. if you're interested
and have an e-mail address, I can forward to you a great many files which
enumerate such things.
~*~ These experiments weren't conducted by Joe Blow these people know
what they are talking about. you don't! - Keith Jones
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Medication
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:14:06
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb5
REPLY: 1:352/266 31367CA1
PID: FM 2.02
JA> Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used
JA> to be. Doya think any one would be interested? nah...probably not.
mm> I might be interested in how, and why you have changed.
mm> I once was a fundy myself.... then I got better.
Armen was in this forum a couple of months ago and, because she was so easilly
debunked, she sought out her priests and stuff to "counter" the hurtful,
embarrassing truths she was exposed to. One of those things that she was
told was that she had been cured of a medical malady and she stated that
she went off her medication because she was "cured." Shortly after that
she fled this forum.
Hopefully her medical problem has manifest itself to the point where she's
decided to get back onto her medication.
~*~ Creationist: "Why yes. Rome _was_ built in a day." - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Hardy pretends there's nothing wrong with murdering children
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:15:53
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb6
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 12f8003d
PID: FM 2.02
FR> If so, then I believe the innocent children who, unfortunately,
FR> lost their physical lives, gain eternal life in heaven and thus
FR> aren't punished at all. - Michael Hardy
FR> To all Christians: He's one of yours.
sr> "Oooooohhhh... I don't want him - you can have him
Sorry, you broke him, you keep him. No refund.
~*~ Christianity does not preach the gospels to offer man a guide to
salvation. It uses the gospels as a weapon in the ideological
conquest of man. - Simon Ewins
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance: How many die this time?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:21:18
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb7
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 135ff594
PID: FM 2.02
>> Waco Rememberance will start 1pm Saturday March 2, 1996 in Austin, Texas
>> on the south side of the Texas State Capital at 11th and Congress.
FR> Are you clowns going to blow up another federal building this year?
tp> Not me, nor any Waco protester that I know.
That you'll admit to, yes. Well, today's the 4'th and so far your fellow
unsalted nuts have kept the body count stable over the weekend. My guess
is that the FBI is doing its job but that after security at Federal buildings
is relaxed, you nuts will "remember" Waco with -- let's guess at at least
another 00 innocent people dead.
tp> We believe that the taking of innocent life, as happened
tp> at Waco, can't be protested by taking MORE innocent life.
Which is why you clowns murdered almost 200 people in Oklahoma.
tp> Gosh Frederic, you sure have carried
tp> your prejudice and hatred a long time.
Interesting claim coming from someone who still perpetuates the known hoax,
"Waco: The Big Lie." Is "the government" still mounting flame throwers
on their tanks and exterminating religious groups, Terry?
tp> Don't you think we should do something about these govt
tp> tank drivers, our employees, who are still at large:
Ah, yes. You _are_ still perpetuating the lie.
tp> "I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many
tp> women and children and having a big tank coming through the
tp> front door. And they penetrated a room's length or more...
tp> This is America. This isn't a police state.
And it's ironic that you unsalted nuts, by murdering innocent people with
your terrorist activities, are helping to bring about the _need_ for a police
State.
Self-fufilling pophecy always wins.
~*~ As long as there are exams, there will be prayer in schools!
- William Putnam
Studying for exams out performs prayers by 100%. - George Rudzinski
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Parker
|Sub: Lunatic unsalted nut extremists: How many dead this time?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:27:20
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb8
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 135ff596
PID: FM 2.02
TL> PROHIBITS THE USE OF INDECENT SPEECH ONLINE AND ANOTHER THAT
TL> BARS DISCUSSION OF ABORTION ON THE INTERNET. THE PRESIDENT,
FR>
FR> Usually TLP posts these wild extremist anti-government
FR> "pronouncements" about Waco, Texas, or Ruby Ridge.
tp> Huh?!? How did you get on that from the govt's AbortionSpeak ban?
The rabid lunatic who posts his conspiracy theories is one and the same,
Terry: You. The only thing I haven't seen you explain are the black helicopters
and how Henry Kissinger fits into it all.
FR> He and his little band parade back and forth in front of
FR> government offices calling for the arrests of the people
FR> inside.
tp> Have you been tripping to 'Fantasy Island' again?
Coming from someone who still perpetuates the known hoax, "Waco: The Big
lie." Are you still a member of Linda Thompson's lunatic cult, Terry?
FR> I wouldn't mind seeing Janet Reno tried for treason against the State
tp> A shared fantasy perhaps.
Ah but some day, right? Some day when you unsalted nuts take over and put
the country "back on line" we'll all have justice again, right? Yeah, it'll
cost what? four? five million lives? But at least we'll have justice
once you unsalted nuts "return" the country back to its "rightful owners."
ns> Isn't the reason they don't leave just that they believe they have
ns> ownership or entitlement to this country? Yokels. Go figure.
tp> Whose this mysterious 'they?'
Interesting education, Terry. You almost spell as badly as
I do.
tp> I thought I was alone at the keybourd when I cross-posted that
tp> item about the AbortionSpeak ban (remember, the actual subject
tp> of this thread of conversation).
The actual topic of this thread is lunatic nut extremists who want to pretend
that the United States has been taken over by vague, ill-defined "them"
who are deliberartely taking away the individual rights and liberties of
the populace.
tp> You must be one of those people that conjures up a conspiracy at
tp> the drop of a hat. Are you one of those paranoid conspiranouts?
Coming from someone who continues to perpetuate, "Waco: The Big Lie."
~*~ The use of pepper is the only blasphemy. - Robert Curry
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Joan would like to clear up some misunderstandings
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:29:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cb9
PID: FM 2.02
ja> Find a differnt person to pick on.
fr> Interesting. You want to pretend you're being picked on, huh?
fr> There's an easy solution to refrain from making it into the quotes
fr> archives, Joan: Learn from your mistakes.
ja> Gee, I was a real dummy, huh?
Believers in the occult believe for many reasons, Joan, and stupidity is
only one reason. Being brought up believing in the occult is one of the
major reasons for belief and it's not anyone's fault but the parents.
~*~ Jesus wouldn't last long in HolySmoke. - Fredric Rice
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Joan would like to clear up some misunderstandings
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:29:44
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cba
PID: FM 2.02
fr> A great many people are added to the quotes archives, Joan.
ja> BTW, my name is Joanna.:) I hate being called
ja> Joan. It just sounds so dull!:)
My apologies. I'll refrain from using the dimmunitive form.
~*~ Roger seems to have missed his sugar coating at his second birth.
- Preston Simpson
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:33:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cbb
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 31372b94
PID: FM 2.02
>> And a great big lubbin' hello to all of you out there.
FR> Questor! Hey, man! Long time no... oh wait. We talked last night.
kc> Fred! Hey, man! Long time no... oh wait. I see you every day
kc> both on HS and on IRC. You sure are prolific, man. 8D
That's why I had myself fixed.
>> Many of you may re-remember me from IRC, or wayyy back
>> several years ago as Questor Thews. Well, amazingly
>> enough, I didn't
>> 1) Die >> 2) Get a life >> 3) Join the Navy, join the Navy,
>> Join the Navy >> 4) Become a monk >> 5) Become a nun
>> 6) Become Ron Stringfellow.
FR> 'Coulda become a Christian priest and raped with impunity.
kc> I believe I just said that I didn't. (#6)
There's a quote that could land you a lot of trouble. I like to
keep comments about Christians who rape unspecific unless I have newspaper
archives which back up the claim. So far as we know Ron has never
been caught.
~*~ Sounds like a bunch of self-deluded sodomites to me. - Charlie J. Ray
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims of deity constructs again
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:38:36
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cbc
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 1e84010d
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Where did your deity constructs come from?
jg> If you mean where did God come from , then my answer can
jg> be found in the law of the conservation of energy.
That's been debunked hundreds of times in this very forum and was pretty
much debunked when first claimed hundreds of years ago. It ignores several
facts entirely and doesn't address the question.
Of primary note is the lack of evidence for the existance of deity constructs.
Of secondary note is the lack of explanation for where the deity constructs
came from.
~*~ I'm awaiting with bated revulsion your detailed account of the number
of changes that have taken place in Carbon dating over the past 30
years, with some attention paid to whether or not these were
refinements in technique. - Don Martin
Just think about it... why else would they number the types of
carbon dating? - Greg Waggy
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Very much mythology!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:40:55
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cbd
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 1e840119
PID: FM 2.02
KR> He's dead, at any rate. Not much to talk about.
rg> God is alive, Jesus is very much alive
rg> in the hearts of TRUE believers everywhere.
FR> By that illogic, there are millions of deities -- billions if you
FR> include ancestor worship. That's pretty silly, Rodney.
jg> I prefer to think of it as billions of
jg> different perceptions of the SAME diety :-)
But that's dishonest and a lie. It's no different than a Christanic pointing
at other deity constructs different than their own and demanding that they're
all "of Satan" -- itself a Christanic deity construct; which makes all deities
merely manifestations of the Christanic pantheon.
It's dishonest to demand that there is only one deity construct (or three
or five if you're talking about the Christanic pantheon.)
~*~ I have the false christian scum (and their infidel, reprobate brethern),
the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all ganging up on me.
- Steve Winter
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:41:30
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cbe
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 1e84011b
PID: FM 2.02
FR> SIGNS OF HATE
FR> Read: Luke 14:26
FR> "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and
FR> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
FR> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
jg> Why do I get the feeling that this verse has been misinterpreted ?
Because it is in keeping with the Christanic death cult's bloody history?
~*~ Yes, I'd bow down before your god... to make sure that the
bastard was dead. - Dan Ceppa
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:46:33
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cbf
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 1e84011d
PID: FM 2.02
FR> THE BLESSING OF RAPE AND MURDER
FR> Read: Numbers 31:17-18
FR> "Now therefore kill every male among the little
FR> ones, and kill every woman who hath known man by
FR> lying with him. But all the women children, that have
FR> not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for
FR> yourselves."
jg> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE. Think about it. No point
jg> having all those orphaned children and widows around after
jg> their hubbys have died in the war.
How about I kill you and then your family, Jim? And kidnap your children
to rape them repeatedly as slaves?
What's that? You don't _like_ that idea? Well then. Guess you really
fuck up with that comment lovingly and faithfully reproduced above, huh?
~*~ God loves you. He can free you from the horrible temptations of your
social disorder. - Johnny Mckinney (Talking about homosexuality)
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Jim is a Christanic death cultist.
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:47:32
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cc1
PID: FM 2.02
By: Jim Germiquet
FR> THE BLESSING OF RAPE AND MURDER
FR> Read: Numbers 31:17-18
FR> "Now therefore kill every male among the little
FR> ones, and kill every woman who hath known man by
FR> lying with him. But all the women children, that have
FR> not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for
FR> yourselves."
Actually this sounds quite HUMANE. Think about it. No
point having all those orphaned children and widows around
after their hubbys have died in the war.
How's that for evil? This guy MUST be a Christian.
~*~ When I became a Christian, I found myself in a dilemma.
- Johnny Mckinney
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:49:37
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cc2
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 3135cbf1
PID: FM 2.02
MS> HEY SCROTUM HEAD! If you can't send mail correctly and to the right
MS> persons, why don't you go back to the school of brainless morons you
MS> came from and learn how? preferably your daddy's womb!
KS> FUNDY MELTDOWN ALERT.
js> .....Only in my temper....
Ph knock it off. You experience Fundy Meltdown Syndrome nearly every day.
js> Getting quite sick of being referred to as my brother Jim. that's alll.
Take your medication and that problem will go away, Jim.
~*~ jp> I have become quite tired of people blaming Christianity for the
jp> many atrocities that have been committed in the NAME of Christianity.
dr> I have become quite tired of people blaiming Nazi fascism for the
dr> many atrocities that have been committed in the NAME of Nazism.
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:50:56
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cc3
REPLY: 1:271/460 3136ccb1
PID: FM 2.02
FR>>> Look at your own hatred, Ken, and note that the death
FR>>> cult you joined has a history that fits you.
FR> Interesting. You elected not to quote your hatred and bigotry this
fr> time around. Gee. Perhaps death cult fundies _are_ capable of
fr> learning afterall.
km> Still can't find the word "fundies" in
km> any dictionary, so they must not exist.
Pretending you don't exist doesn't make your death cult disappear, Ken.
And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
Is your son still alive, fundy?
~*~ Get thee behind me Satan. - Kenneth Mcabee
Bend over. - Satan
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it either, Ken
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:52:09
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cc4
REPLY: 1:271/460 3136cdcf
PID: FM 2.02
FR>>> Either drink it or admit you're a fraud.
Well? Aren't you going to drunk up, fraud?
km>>> Go read the Bible and tell me what Christ
km>>> said when someone asked him for a sign?
FR>> Go read your mythologies and tell me who lied when they claimed
fr>> you could drink up and not be harmed.
km>> What mythologies?
FR> Pretending ignorance over and above what you already hold to escape
the
FR> embarrassing fact that _YOU_ refuse to drink up is silly, Ken. You
fr> know you are afraid to drink because you KNOW that your mythologies
are
fr> all lies.
FR> Doubt it? Drink.
km> I do not have any myghologies.
Some days you claim you're a Christanic death cultist and some days you
deny it. Which is it, fundy?
~*~ I want it stopped now. - Marguerite Kendall
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal probably also believes in McDowell
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:53:10
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cc5
REPLY: 1:271/460 3136d01f
PID: FM 2.02
FR> But we know you're only lying. We know you're not a TRUE Christian.
fr> We have discovered together that you KNOW the Christanic mythologies
fr> are lies.
And you won't drink up -- that proves it undeniably.
km> "And again David if God asked me to kill
km> my son, I would see it as a sacrifice."
And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
There's the full admission. Well? Have you murdered your own son yet?
~*~ God never intended for there to be sex with the same race. - Steve
Lew
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Taking medication
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:55:05
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cc6
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1371f9f0
PID: FM 2.02
jp> I don't expect to be responding for at least a couple of months.
Checking yourself into a hospital again, John?
'Bout fucking time.
~*~ A believer's mind seeks knowledge just as the vacuum inside a CRT
seeks air -- and for the exact same reason. - Sean McCullough
---
* Origin: This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 213 days (1:102/890)
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: QUOTE
|Date: 27 Feb 96 20:59:58
EID:6e39 205ba760
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62d170bb
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892E43A0
MH> Even evolutionists admit there is little fossil evidence of
MH> Darwinian evolution. Hence the need to invent punctuated
MH> equilibrium.
So are you denying that evolution took place?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 27 Feb 96 21:09:31
EID:2d73 205ba920
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62d18778
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 892F0E21
DC> BTW, late breaking news: JFK is still dead.
It's starting to sound like an old SNL routine...
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 27 Feb 96 21:14:56
EID:e912 205ba9c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 62d197a6
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 312e4a63
DW> I find it odd that Hardly equates atheists not berating every
DW> atheist who doesn't register their shareware with atheists not
DW> having morals. SInce I have never seen Hardly point out this
DW> little hypocrisy to his fellow believers, I guess, using
DW> Mikey-logic, that I can only assume that he has no morals
DW> either.
I dunno. In Mike's defense, some of the atheists here got on a few cases
of theists not having registered software. Right is right and anyone that
screams about unregistered softwre on once hand should scream about it whenever
they see it. To me, it don't make a royal hill of beans, I ust viewed it
as a way to get under this particular fundy's skin.
Seems to have worked, too.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: All
|Sub: ARTICLES FOLLOW/ contents
|Date: 27 Feb 96 21:34:00
EID:637c 205bac40
MSGID: 1:215/130 00175e4e
I'm uploading some files I think most people here will find interesting.
No one could make this stuff up.
Highlights are:
Honeymoon Hargis:
The sordid tale of the fall of an extreme right wing evangelist and
hypocrite extraordinare and his sneak back into the limelight today.
Pat Robertson:
Scary look at the most powerful man in religion in America
Religious Right
take over local schools a 1993 article on what happens in some small
towns when the Right Wing agenda comes to their school board
Perversion
You think you can't be shocked? Well maybe not, but if these articles and
excerpts don't outrage you, you're probably in the Seminary.
Includes:
President Reagan's pastor in sex scandal!
Pervert Central - New Mexico Catholic Church maintains recovery facility
for pedophile priests. Community is outraged when locals are molested by
priests sent there for recovery. Find out why their perverted priests have
cost the Catholic Church nearly 1/2 billion dollars in law suits
And lots of other holy Child molesters
----
And more. I hate to dump it all at once but I'm going to be gone for a
week or two and if I don't post them now I probably never will.
Enjoy
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: All
|Sub: PAT ROBERTSON:certified W
|Date: 27 Feb 96 21:34:00
EID:eaf3 205bac40
MSGID: 1:215/130 00175e56
" The work of a secret feminist agenda that is not about equal rights for
women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that
encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice
witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."
-- Pat Robertson on the Iowa Equal Rights Amendment
"Robertson's following provides much of the _$233_ million annual income.
In a year, views of the 700 club log 4 million prayer calls to 4500
volunteers manning telephone banks in 60 counseling centers. Such
motivated constituencies can - and do - bestow blessings aplenty, in the
form of money and votes, upon candidates who win their favor." --Power,
Glory --And Politics (Cover Story) Time Magazine 2/17/86 p.62
---
GENOCIDAL ACT OF "LOVE"
Pat Robertson supports the concept of genocide. He believes that the mass
murder of sinners is acceptable, or even desirable.
"The statement necessarily implies that whenever evangelization efforts
meet with chronic resistance, extermination should follow."
700 Club
May 6, 1985
Begin transcript:
Audience Participant: I've been reading through the Book of Numbers
recently, and come across that passage in Chapter 31 about the destruction
of the Midianites. How do you explain that apparent travesty of the
destruction of that people with the just and holy God?
Pat Robertson: The wars of extermination have given a lot of people
trouble unless they understand fully what was going on. The people in the
land of Palestine were very wicked. They were given over to idolatry. They
sacrificed their children. They had all kinds of abominable sex practices.
They were having sex apparently with animals. They were having sex men
with men and women with women. They were committing adultery and
fornication. They were serving idols. As I say, they were offering their
children up, and they were forsaking God.
Now you say, " God told the Israelites to kill them all: men, women and
children; to destroy them." And that seems like a terrible thing to do.
Is
it or isn't it? Well, let us assume that there were two thousand of them
or ten thousand of them living in the land, or whatever number [note:
there were more like 100,000] I don't have the exact number, but pick a
number. And God said "Kill 'em' all." Well, that would seem hard, wouldn't
it? But that would be 10,000 people who probably would go to hell. But if
they stayed and reproduced, in thirty, forty or fifty or sixty or a
hundred more years there could conceivably be ... ten thousand would grow
to a hundred [thousand], a hundred thousand conceivably could grow to a
million, and there would be a million people who would have to spend an
eternity in Hell. And it is far more merciful to take away a few than to
see in the future a hundred years down the road, and say, "Well, I'll have
to take away a million people, that will be forever apart from God because
the abomination is there." It's like a contagion. God saw that there was
no cure for it. It wasn't going to change., and all they would do is cause
trouble for the Israelites and pull the Israelites away from God and
prevent the truth of God from reaching the earth. And so God in love - and
that was a loving thing - took away a small number that he might not have
to take away a large number. Now that's a long answer, but I think that's
closer to it. Danuta?
Danuta Soderman: Well, my question would be, Pat, why didn't He just save
them all? I mean, why didn't he say, I forgive you I save you, and save
them that way? Why obliterate them?
Robertson: A righteous God, just like a righteous judge - if a man comes
into court who has committed murder, the judge can't say, "Well I'm a
merciful kind of judge , and the jury has found you guilty of
premeditated, first degree murder, but I'm such a nice guy, you can just
go ahead and I forgive you." He can't do that and uphold the law. They
would impeach him. A judge has to keep the law and God has certain laws
in
the universe which must be upheld. The only way He fulfilled those laws
was to die himself in the person of His son on the cross. And he is not
going to force anybody to accept him. It has to be a free choice. And they
had freely chosen to reject him and it doesn't get any better. It gets
worse.
===========================
End transcript
Two months latter Robertson gave substantially the same answer to a
similar question.
Even from a believers perspective this is insane. From the book "Salvation
For Sale:"
" Robertsons writings clearly indicates that removing a tumor or evil
before it spreads throughout the whole body of mankind is a high priority
for him."
And look at what a favorable construction it puts on the Holocaust, at
least where the extermination of conversion resistant Jews is concerned.
"The statement necessarily implies that whenever evangelization efforts
meet with chronic resistance, extermination should follow."
---------------------
Comments:
Robertsons beliefs are completely inconsistent. First he says it's OK to
murder thousands of sinners to prevent them from reproducing (which, by
the way, is also like saying sin is more popular than Christianity and
hence likely to win out).
Then in practically the next breath he says: "And he is not going to force
anybody to accept him. It has to be a free choice. And they had freely
chosen to reject him and it doesn't get any better. It gets worse."
So basically he is saying it is a "free choice" but if you don't choose
right, it's OK to commit genocide on you. Right....
Notice too that Pat doesn't believe that God is omnipotent: "A judge has
to keep the law and God has certain laws in the universe which must be
upheld. The only way He fulfilled those laws was to die himself in the
person of His son on the cross."
----
Don't go away, it gets even weirder....
WASHINGTON POST : Sunday, 11 October 1992
"The Robertson Right and the Grandest Conspiracy"
by Michael Isikoff
-1-
The President is the unwitting captive of hostile forces that worship the
occult. Secret societies have penetrated elite American institutions and
are manipulating public opinion. The ultimate goal: to strip the United
States of its constitutional freedoms, destroy the Christian faith and
impose the rule of Satan.
Is this the plot for one more "Damien" sequel? A Stephen King foray to
Washington?
In fact, the scenario represents the startling world view of a familiar
figure on the American political scene - televangelist, media magnate and
former GOP presidential candidate Pat Robertson. In recent months,
Robertson has reemerged as an influential player in Republican Party
politics. His fledgling, tax-exempt lobbying organization, the Christian
Coalition, has seized control of the Republican Party apparatus in a
half-dozen states and is spending millions of dollars - working closely
with GOP campaign officials to produce a massive vote by evangelical
Christians. After last summer's Republican National Convention, where
Robertson was a featured speaker and more than 300 Christian Coalition
members served as delegates, President Bush chose to pay personal homage
to the new power on his right. In September, he flew to Virginia Beach to
appear side by side with Robertson before 1,100 cheering, flag-waving,
Christian Coalition soldiers at the group's second annual "Road to
Victory" conference.
Given Robertson's new visibility, some of the more provocative aspects of
his Weltanschauung take on a new political importance. There is, for
example, his now famous fund-raising letter in Iowa opposing a proposed
equal rights amendment to that state's constitution. The amendment,
Robertson wrote, was the work of a "secret feminist agenda" that is "not
about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family
political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill
their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become
lesbians."
But while the Iowa letter was denounced by women's groups as beyond the
pale, Robertson's missive represents a tiny part of the televangelist's
increasingly conspiratorial view of world events a view that makes his
alliance with Bush even more puzzling. Only last year, Robertson was
hinting that Bush may have been selling out the country to a satanic
conspiracy bent on taking over the planet. By talking about a "new world
order," the televangelist warned, Bush was adopting the secret code words
of behind-the-scenes power brokers men, many of them of foreign origin,
who have been pulling the strings of U.S. presidents for much of this
century. "Indeed," Robertson wrote, "it may well be that men of goodwill
like Woodrow Wilson, Jimmy Carter and George Bush... are in reality
unknowingly and unwittingly carrying out the mission and mouthing the
phrases of a tightly knit cabal whose goal is nothing less than a new
order for the human race under the domination of Lucifer and his
followers."
Robertson's theories about this "tightly knit cabal" were out lined in
>The New World Order,< a 1991 book that briefly appeared on the New York
Times best-seller list and is now heavily promoted in Christian Coalition
publications. According to the book, the plot to impose "a new order for
the human race" dates back to 1776, when Bavarian scholar Adam Weisphaut
founded the Order of the Illuminati a secret society of "atheists and
Satanists" that, Robertson asserts, was dedicated to "the elevation to
world leadership of a group of hand-picked 'adepts' or `Illuminati'.
Since then, the illumined ones have spread their tentacles, founding or
infiltrating such diverse organizations as the Ma sons, the Communist
Party, the English Round Table, the Council on Foreign Relations, the
Federal Reserve Board, the Trilateral Commission and the New Age movement.
How far has their plot reached? Flip over a $1 bill and look at the
picture of the Great Seal the one with the pyramid and the glowing eye on
top. That, Robertson writes, is "the eye of an ancient Egyptian deity,
Osiris, who is revered in the secret high ceremonies and sacred rites of
the Masonic Order." Robertson notes that the seal was designed by Charles
Thompson, a member of the Continental Congress who was also a Mason, and
that the Latin phrase at the bottom, `Novus Ordo Seclorum', can be
translated as a "new order for the ages" or a new world order.
Robertson's outline provides fresh perspective on the march of history.
The Illuminati, he writes, instigated the French Revolution and inspired
Marx and Engels to write the "Communist Manifesto." They penetrated the
international financial community through the Rothschilds the Jewish
banking family who, Robertson says, may be "the missing link between the
occult and the world of high finance." Then there was the Lincoln
assassination. Robertson believes it was not related to the Civil War per
se, but to Lincoln's plans to issue interest-free greenbacks a move
opposed by the Illuminati financiers.
Although he acknowledges he has no hard evidence, Robertson writes, "it
is
my belief that John Wilkes Booth . . . was in the employ of the European
bankers . . . ."
The upshot, to Robertson, is that the Illuminati are more powerful than
ever. Much of the media are their "propaganda organs." The Gulf War and
the call by Bush (a longtime Council on Foreign Relations member) for a
new world order were watershed events, setting the stage for the final
"war against the Christian people." To guard against further weakening of
our defenses, Robertson advises vigilance against foreign policy advisers
"with a foreign accent." "How can anyone who spent most of his life in
Germany or Poland fully understand the family life, the shared values .
.
. and the intense patriotism of people born in Columbus, Ohio?"
Robertson's immediate influence on the campaign is hard to measure, but
there is little doubt his followers get close attention from the White
House. Bush-Quayle campaign documents recently obtained by The Washington
Post show that Ralph Reed, executive director of the Christian Coalition,
has peppered top campaign officials with strategic advice, including an
April 3 letter to senior strategist Charles Black suggesting the selection
of Robertson-approved delegates to the GOP convention. A July 14 memo to
Bush-Quayle political director Mary Matalin dealt in part with "Pat
Robertson's Role in the Campaign." "Mary: Probably a good idea to ask him
to do something so he feels involved on a personal level," wrote Reed.
Perhaps most significant was a July 15 memo by Bob Heckman, one of the
campaign's designated liaisons to the religious right, to his superior,
Mimi Dawson, director of coalitions. "The president should avoid using the
following phrases," wrote Beckman, including the forbidden words "New
World Order." Whether or not Robert son deserves credit, the phrase began
to disappear from Bush's vocabulary shortly after Robertson's book was
published.
Meanwhile, the president's men are sticking by their man in Virginia
Beach. Among those at last month's Christian Coalition conference were
Lamar Alexander, the secretary of education, and one of his predecessors,
William J. Bennett. "Pat Robertson has a right to say what he thinks, say
what he believes," said Alexander in remarks that drew thunderous
applause. "And I'm glad he does it and I'm glad to be on his side."
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: All
|Sub: HONEYMOON HARGIS
|Date: 27 Feb 96 21:34:00
EID:57bf 205bac40
MSGID: 1:215/130 00175e61
RIGHT WING REV. PERVERT OFFERS ADVICE ON FAMILY VALUES
After you read this file consider sending BJ e-mail telling him what you
think. BJHargis@aol.com
"Americans are tired of "educational professionals" operating in a vacuum,
trying out whatever they wish, defying community standards, as they
experiment with the minds of our precious children."
-- Billy James "Honeymoon" Hargis
I have just learned that one Dr. Billy James Hargis has an account on AOL
(BJHargis@aol.com) and is posting extreme right wing religious/political
dogma & bullshit as downloadable files in the debate forum library.
Hargis is the author of such infamous tomes as Rhythm, Riots, and
Revolution and the best seller, Is the School House the Proper Place to
Teach Raw Sex? a comically ironic title as it turns out.
I was shocked to see this guy back in business. You see, 20 years ago a
scandal rocked his world.
'The reverand performed the wedding ceremony for the two students of his
Bible college. On their honeymoon wedding night the groom and the bride
were stunned to discover that BOTH of them had slept with the Rev. B. J.
Hargis.
He will forever after be known as "Honeymoon" Hargis.'
Time Magazine February 16, 1976, p. 52
[...]
Rev. Billy James Hargis An ultra right fundamentalist, has long denounced
sexual sin and spoken out as a defender of traditional virtues in an
increasingly lax society. In 1968, his organization published the
bestseller (250,000 copies) Is the School House the Proper Place to Teach
Raw Sex?
Today however, Hargis stands accused by former colleagues of committing
some of the very sins he has railed against. Time Correspondent Anne
Constable and Reporters Richard Walker and Tom Carter have learned that
five students -- four of them men -- at his American Christian College
in
Tulsa have come forward and said that President Hargis has had sexual
relations with them. Asked about the charges Hargis declined to give any
specific reply. Through a lawyer he stated: "I have made more than my
share of mistakes. I'm not proud of them. Even the Apostle Paul said,
'Christ died to save sinners. of whom I am chief.' Long ago, I made my
peace with God, and my ministry continues."
That ministry centers on the Christian Crusade, which was founded by
Hargis in 1950 to promote far-right political and religious causes, and
includes radio and TV programs and the Christian Crusade Weekly. Hargis
rallies have featured such notables as former Major General Edwin Walker
and Governor George Wallace.
[...]
Hargis founded American Christian College to teach "anti-Communist
patriotic Americanism."
[...]
Broken Man
It was at the college that Hargis' sexual troubles surfaced in October
1974, when the first of the five students confessed to then Vice President
David Noebel. Noebel's account: Not long before, Hargis had conducted a
wedding for the student; on the honeymoon, the groom and the bride
discovered that both of them had slept with Hargis.
Later, Noebel says, three more male students told him of having had sexual
relations with Hargis over a period of three years. They said the trysts
had taken place in Hargis' office, at his farm in the Ozarks, even during
his tours with the college choir, the "All-American Kids." Noebel was told
that Hargis justified his homosexual acts by citing the Old Testament
friendship between David and Jonathan and threatened to blacklist the
youths for life if they talked.
Noebel, a Hargis aide for twelve years, described how he felt when he
first heard the students accounts: "For two weeks, I couldn't sleep. I
know we had to get Hargis off campus or we were going to lose the whole
school." Finally, on Oct. 25, 1974, Noebel and two other college officials
confronted Hargis and two of his lawyers. According to two of those
present, Hargis, who has a wife, three daughters and a son, admitted his
guilt and blamed his behavior on "genes and chromosomes."
Two days later Hargis preached a farewell sermon to his Tulsa
congregation, then turned the presidency of the college over to Noebel.
But Hargis stayed around the campus for weeks before he officially severed
ties with the Christian Crusade and allied groups. His resignation came
only after the Hargis organization had agreed to cash in their $72,000
life insurance policy on Hargis and give him the money, and had guaranteed
him a $24,000 annual stipend. Meanwhile, Hargis announced that he was
retiring to his Ozarks farm because of ill health.
By February 1975 Hargis felt energetic enough to try to regain control of
the college, but the board backed Noebel. Deprived of Hargis' name and his
astounding money-raising talents, however, his former operations soon
found themselves strapped for cash, and in September all but the college
accepted Hargis' offer to return. The decision was risky, says Loyalist
Jess Pedigo, president of Hargis' David Livingstone Missionary Foundation.
"We thought his coming back might have been premature, but he was a broken
man. He was truly repentant, and we urged him to forget the past.Ê'Let he
who is without sin cast the first stone.' Perhaps more to the point, adds
Pedigo, "There was a danger of bankruptcy."
[...]
The American Christian College, however, has not forgiven Hargis. It took
months for Hargis to transfer to the college the deed to the modernistic
church building and the 8 1/2 acre campus. Without it, the school had no
hope of getting regional accreditation. Worse, Hargis has given the
college limited access to the names on the fund raising list that all the
Hargis organizations formerly shared. Says Noebel: "He's been telling
everyone we are going to sink. Well, obviously we will sink as long as he
holds the mailing list." Some 70% of the schools income comes from
contributions. Enrollment has dropped from 228 to 160, and since word of
the scandal spread to parents one teacher has talked 25 of them into
letting their children stay enrolled.
The remaining collegians are perplexed, but most back Noebel, even though
they once idolized Hargis. The five students who originally accused Hargis
have left town to make new lives for themselves. As for their parents, one
father, who reports that his son's three-year involvement with Hargis
began at age 15 or 16, wept as he said, "I will forgive him his sins
because God's Word tells me what I must do, but I will never forget his
acts against my son."
===============
** Excerpt from one of Hargis's many rants available on Line**
The attack on the American family intensifies (2/94)
The following is from a recent edition of Christian
Crusade Newspaper, P.O. Box 977, Tulsa, OK
74102. The newspaper is in its 42nd year of
publication. We can be E-mailed on
America On Line as BJHargis, on Compuserve at
72204,541, and via the Internet as
BJHargis@aol.com .
Note: This articicle is from the forthcoming book
"If Hillary Says It's For the Kids, Grab Yours and Run"
by Dr. Billy James Hargis, publisher
Keith Wilkerson, editor
Denver school officials recently hosted a three-day conference at
taxpayer expense, training educators from 30 states and Canada in tactics
for keeping Christian parents from "interfering" in the education of
America's children. One expert -- who travels nationwide holding such
training sessions -- warned school officials: "My research suggests that
the Christian right is dedicated to the destruction of our educational
system."
Traditional concepts such as marriage are scorned by these liberal
social engineers who have decided to reinvent America -- whether we
like it or not.
Alternative lifestyles, which our mothers taught us to call
"perversion" and "living in sin," are praised and applauded amid a theme
that America desperately needs "change."
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|From: Elliott Finesse
|To: All
|Sub: QUEEN DAVID??
|Date: 27 Feb 96 21:34:00
EID:39cf 205bac40
MSGID: 1:215/130 00175e7e
Freethought Today, March, 1993, pg. 13
A liberal member of the Israeli parliament suggested in arguing for equal
rights for gays and lesbians in their army in February that King David was
gay. Labor Party iconoclast Yael Dayan quoted from Sam. II, in which David
calls the slain Jonathan "most dear to me," adding, "Your love for me was
wonderful, surpassing the love of women."
Rabbi Moshe Maiya, deputy minster of education, called Dana "a foul and
dirty creature! Who brought her forth? How does she come to sit in our
midst?"
[...]
Rabbi Yoself Arzan threatened to "blow up this leftist coalition."
Dayan, 53, is the daughter of the late Gen. Moshe Dayan.
From: Plane man
One thing which I have observed about xians, if I may generalize a
little, is that they represent a very homophobic segment of our society.
Another thing which I have observed is that xians have the power to become
ostriches whenever the cold, brutal truth is pointed out. The title of
this posting is a little truncated above, so I will repeat it, King David
was as gay as they come.
Let us wend our way through first Samuel, yes that very same book
which brought us the wacky tale of the golden hemorrhoids. David and
Jonathan had a thing going.
Jonny loved Davie as he loved his own soul (20:17). Getting right to the
point, in verse 41 we find,
"And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the
south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times;
and they kissed one another, and wept with one another, until David
exceeded."
Now what do you think it means when it says that David exceeded after all
of this kissing, weeping and wallering on the ground? It means that he
climaxed.
Did you believe that it meant that David was a better kisser and weeper
and he won some kind of contest? Get real.
I also have a Moffatt translation. Mr. Moffatt cannot bring himself
to translate this full verse and he hides behind the convention of the
run on periods. No kidding! Here is what this translation says,
"As soon as the lad had gone, David rose from beside the stone-heap, and
fell with his face to the ground, prostrating himself three times; then
they kissed one another and wept with one another till . . . "
By the way, I believe that all of the blubbering was because David was
scheduled to be married to one of the opposite sex.
I can hardly wait for the wacko apologies for this little bible
story. Come on, xians, tell me how it really is - according to the local
Pentecostal shaman.
---
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|From: THOMAS DELCANO
|To: PRESTON SIMPSON
|Sub: Maria russel in the new_w
|Date: 26 Feb 96 13:52:00
EID:c0e7 205a6e80
MSGID: 1:360/24 e703c78e
The following
Psycho-babble was beamed into my
E-Mail box by Preston an unknown alien lifeform
******************************
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Anthony Grigor-Scott mumbled "Maria russel
in
PS>new_w"
PS> AG> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
PS>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> AG> As far as I know, nothing. However, it has been stated that Thomas
PS> AG> Jefferson was an adrent Illuminist.
PS>It has also been stated that Anthony Grigor-Scott is a sheep-fucking
PS>lackwit. Does this mean that it's true?
*************************
SIR!!!! on behalf of the fine sheep of this country as well as the
ASPCA,
and PETA i must protest this slanderous affront
to our four footed sweater factories, i
assure you SIR that if AGS had sex with one
of these fine creatures it was RAPE, as
even sheep have better taste than THAT!!!+
Unless of course you are refering to the Xtian Flock, in which case they
deserve each other..
blessed be
... Religions-R-Us-All-Others-Are-Scum True Believer. (tm)
---
* Quote the Duke: *
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * Your Sacred cow is my next Double Whopper with Cheese!
* Origin: The PC Connection BBS * Martinez, GA. V.34+ (706) 868-6474 (1:360/24)
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|From: THOMAS DELCANO
|To: JOHN PREWETT
|Sub: hi
|Date: 26 Feb 96 14:21:00
EID:7c70 205a72a0
MSGID: 1:360/24 5842433d
The following
Psycho-babble was beamed into my
E-Mail box by John an unknown alien lifeform
******************************
JP>
JP> Evidently you come from a different planet.
JP>
JP> On planet Earth, English dictionaries do not
JP>
JP> define "Satanist" as "Christians."
JP>
no they define Satan as the adversary of GOD, your GOD, your Satan
as a matter of fact my dictionary doesnt require belief in JC to be
defined as a Christian
Informal: Human, Civilized, decent
blessed be
... blessed are the fundys, for they shall inhibit the earth
---
* Quote the Duke: *
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * Your Sacred cow is my next Double Whopper with Cheese!
* Origin: The PC Connection BBS * Martinez, GA. V.34+ (706) 868-6474 (1:360/24)
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|From: THOMAS DELCANO
|To: RYAN SHAW
|Sub: hi
|Date: 26 Feb 96 15:35:00
EID:6419 205a7c60
MSGID: 1:360/24 32687533
The following
Psycho-babble was beamed into my
E-Mail box by Ryan an unknown alien lifeform
******************************
RS>THOMAS DELCANO spewed forth the following JOHN PREWETT:
RS>
RS>JP> KW> Satanists are usually considered to be Christians by the Pagans,
RS>
RS>JP> Demonstrating the ignorance of Pagans.
RS>
RS> TD> Untrue , Spunky SATAN is a christian god, not a pagan god,
RS> TD> we dont believe in him, only you xtians do, therefore he cant be
RS> TD> pagan, after all he is a fallen angel are you saying angels are
RS> TD> pagan??? and since Satan is from the xtian pantheon, his followers
RS> TD> are a xtian sub-sect or cult.
RS>
RS>Don't waste your time on Prewett unless you plan on telling him the Pope
i
RS>great satan.
*************************
You mean he ISN'T????????
blessed be
... Someone's gotta tell the Volcano God that we're all out of virgins!
---
* Quote the Duke: *
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * Your Sacred cow is my next Double Whopper with Cheese!
* Origin: The PC Connection BBS * Martinez, GA. V.34+ (706) 868-6474 (1:360/24)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: The Constellation
|Date: 26 Feb 96 16:37:49
EID:4488 205a84a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3132f37b
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62b4648d
J.J. Hitt said "The Constellation" to Don Martin,
adding:
JH>> Actually, I'll be in the Baltimore area later this spring.
DM> Wanna do lunch? My office is at Pratt and Gay, right at
DM> the Inner Harbor and easy to find (as well as surrounded by
DM> eateries--overpriced, but whatthehell, how often do you get
DM> up here?)
JH> Sounds like a winner. Though I may not hit town in time for
JH> the lunch hour (exact details are yet to be nailed down), I
JH> should be in the Inner Harbor area by mid-afternoon. Tenative
JH> arrival date is May Day.
We'll do tea, then. Did you get my netmail a week or so
ago? If so, I'll NM you my voice numbers.
JH> It'll be my first time there since 1979.
I am credibly informed that it has changed since then.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 26 Feb 96 16:40:07
EID:18f6 205a8500
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3132f37c
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62b4b90a
J.J. Hitt said "Al Schroeder" to Don Martin,
adding:
DW>> More than you do, apparently. Should we paint a target on
DW>> JJ's forehead to make sure you hit him next time?
DM> Nah. Then we'd only having some loon claiming that he has
DM> known FOUR people with clitorectomies.
JH> But, but, but.... I don't even OWN a cash register!
Wanna buy one?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 27 Feb 96 13:16:13
EID:2795 205b6a00
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31334dd1
REPLY: 1:246/15 3129238B
Steve Wallis said "FOF UPDATE, STAAL" to Sean McCullough,
adding:
SM> > Focus on the Family is a Christian organization
SM> A CROOKED Christian profit-making business masquerading as a
SM> non-profit establishment.
SW> I doubt it. More like a well established Christian organization that
SW> has stood its ground when attacked by the whimsical antics of the
SW> devil and his demons.
Fascinating. Have you any evidence for the existence of
this devil and/or his demons outside of human imagination? I
presume that you also have some documentation of attacks
being made upon the FOF by said devil and/or demons since
you assert that this has taken place: please present it
here.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Brian Shreve
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Get Saved!
|Date: 28 Feb 96 01:56:28
EID:39f2 205c0f00
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 31340aac
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 132eb418
BS> does god exist
JP> Yes.
How do you know, how does a person find him or know that
such a god exists? Read the original, and if you can't come
up with a reasonable response, don't waste your time, or
my time. I'm not into playing games. Got it?
Brian
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 26 Feb 96 09:52:48
EID:aba8 205a4e80
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 9dd9c7eb
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 11804319
On 24 Feb 96, Steve Rose wrote:
JB> Do you have sources for these "malaprops?" The mike, the phone
JB> cord, and the clock?
SR> It doesn't take much searching to find the records. Manufacturer's
SR> own product release archives...for one thing. And people who actually
I was hoping maybe you were working from a reference --a legitimate list
of anachronisms, with sources for each, in perhaps a single file that
was attachable or internet email-sendable....
SR> tracked down some of the items shown from company catalogs and
SR> spokesperson's statements. The hammer? Ask any medical doctor (you
SR> know...the ones with REAL degrees?) what those instruments are used
SR> for. And as for the phone cord...oh, please! Any fifty-year old
SR> could tell the difference in style.
Interesting. I taped the show (the one with Riker [Jonathan Frakes]
hosting), and saw no obvious flaws, but then, how many people pay
_attention_ to their telephome cords? I don't know what was _wrong_
with the cord, much less any of the other visible items.
SR> But why anyone would bother to authenticate that pile of contrived
SR> alien space-rubble is certainly beyond me.
Bothering to authenticate it isn't the issue. Bothering to REFUTE it is
the issue. It's important to shoot down that sort of claptrap every
time it appears. If no one speaks, the crap goes unchallenged, and
people will BELIEVE it, especially if they see NO opposition.
It's the same necessity now laid on those of us who care about truth,
science, and reality, by crap like Sunday's "The Mysterious Origins of
Man" on NBC, hosted by no less a personage than Charlton Heston, in
which we yet again see the likes of Carl Baugh (Paluxy 'mantracks')
spouting bullshit. These people should not be allowed to get AWAY with
that level of public balderdash.
So, I wanted to know if you had any electronically obtainable 'formal'
(authoritative/scientific) and complete prop-anachronism-revealing
reference usable in showing others the falsity of the "alien autopsy"
film.
Apparently not, so thanks anyway.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Real Programmers use "Copy Con Filename.exe"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 26 Feb 96 10:03:50
EID:24af 205a5060
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 c38519d8
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 62a685ff
On 24 Feb 96, Martin Goldberg wrote:
JB> "The LORD said to Moses, 'Avenge the people of Israel on the
JB> Midianites; afterward you shall be gathered to your
JB> people.'"
JB> Note that in reading on _after_ that, all the actions taken were
JB> taken at the instructions of _Moses_. God does not again
JB> speak until 31:25, in which no hint of the slaughter is
JB> mentioned. (This is about distribution of the booty.)
MG> This is just so much rhetoric. God told Moses to avenge himself.
Martin, JUST as in refuting creationists' usage of scientific QUOTES
from real evolutionists, it is ILLEGITIMATE to claim a source SAYS a
thing that it does _not_ strictly and precisely say.
It does reality-lovers no good to be seen doing exactly the same sort of
text-distorting and out-of-context quoting as the Fundie/Crretinists do.
The claim is that God ordered the killing. That's FALSE. _Moses_
ordered the killing, strictly and precisely. You have plenty of other
ammunition that _isn't_ ambiguous; you don't need to distort the text in
order to make your point, so why do it?
The claim made (that God ordered the slaughter directly) is of exactly
the same character as saying that the Bible says the earth is only about
7,000 years old. It does NOT say that; that is an interpretation, a
derivation made by someone else (Bishop Ussher). Neither does the Bible
(in this _specific_ reference re: the Midianites) say that God directly
ordered the slaughter.
If a person is truly interested in the strict truth in these religious
arguments, that person will NOT yeild to his bias's temptation, to say
something with argumentative power, but which is, strictly speaking, NOT
true of the source text. It's not good to just use something like this
that sounds good, but isn't _written_ the way the arguer wants to make
it sound.
It ain't "rhetoric," Bud; it's the exact quoted material's clear
meaning.
MG> What else did god mean? God meant for the hebrews to out and kill
Sure, you can try to "read God's mind" and figure out what He meant, and
then claim He DID mean that, but if you do, your argument's based in
nothing better than the Fundies base _theirs_ in: interpretation.
You wanna be classed, as an arguer, _with_ the Fundies, making the same
sorts of errors they make, and arguing from the same types of
_assumptions_ they argue from? No good. Too easily pointed out. The
claim was _wrong_, as written. There's no "just rhetoric" about it.
To be dispassionate wrt the truth means that if the Fundies twist
things, you point OUT that they twisted things, BUT it ALSO means that
if your own brethren twist things, you point THAT out as well.
Otherwise you're just as prejudicial a misquoter on your side as they
are on theirs.
MG> their enemies.
MG> God does then speak about the division of the booty. He makes no
MG> mention of what a terrible thing this was or why the hebrews should
MG> never gone out and slaughtered those people. He never tells them that
MG> Moses as misunderstood him.
Interpretation is fine, but CALL it that. You, as the arguer, NOTE
these things, _before_ the Fundie points them out. The claim is that
the Bible SAYS God ordered the slaughter. That is NOT strictly true, as
the text clearly shows. The claim _should_ therefore have been that God
INTENDED the slaughter to take place. But NOOooo..... That's a bit
weaker than the anti-Fundie arguer likes, so he just bends the truth a
little, to improve the power of his argument. What crap that is. It's
no better than the truth-bending the Fundies themselves do. Don't do
it, if you want to win an argument.
MG> Your god gave orders to murder those people. And his willing slaves
MG> wne tout and did it.
See? See what you're doing? Here you are ASSUMING that this is "MY"
God we're talking about. NOT. I am the propounder of the "Quantum God
Hypothesis," which is heretical, objectionable to every Fundie I have
ever spoken about it with, and has no direct connection with the Bible,
Judaism, Christianity or Muslim. 'I am also an evolutionist.'
My message was about precision in argument: you have to have it, if you
wish an argument to stand without being attackable. I'm not even a
"Fundie" --I attacked the argument to point OUT to the writer that he's
using an _interpretation_, NOT a direct argument against the TEXT.
A better argument against Bible-text WRITTEN stuff might be Abel's blood
"calling out from the ground." That one IS a directly disprovable
Bible passage. God ordering Moses to go slaughter the Midianites is NOT
a directly supportable argument _from_the_text_.
It is a _good_ thing, to fight the simplistic overliteralistic and
uncritical Bible-based Fundie-belief system. It is NOT a good thing to
do it without careful attention to detail, exact-wording use of the same
source they use, and a personal debate integrity that BEATS theirs. You
have to be seen as MORE fair, MORE precise, and MORE careful than they,
if you want your arguments to have the kind of power they need to have.
Remember; you're fighting IRRATIONALITY. You yourself have to be
strictly rational.
MG> Really. You fundies will try anything, including believing the rest
MG> of us to be stupid too.
I am not a fundie, in the wildest stretch of the imagination.
If that sort of assumptive behaviour is typical of you, then it's no
wonder you defend the incorrect use of the "God ordered the slaughter"
passages.
There are TWO different arguments going on, that often get mixed up: 1)
anti-Bible, and anti-God. Dsiproving the Bible has no effect on
disproving God. Atheism versus Theism (generic) is NOT the same
argument as reality versus Bible or Bible versus "proper behaviour for a
loving God."
Understand what you presume to criticize, else those to whom you intend
making a point will find it too easy to cancel your argument.
I'm not even a fundie --all I did was simply read the passage cited. It
plainly does not say what the poster claimed it says.
A lie (or a truth-bending) is a lie, whether it appears in the text of a
Fundie or that of an atheist or Hindu. Lies serve no one.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... He _did_ it, and then He _hid_ it!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ALIEN AUTOPSY
|Date: 26 Feb 96 10:36:57
EID:f16f 205a5480
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 1e519d52
On 24 Feb 96, Judith Bandsma wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Steve Rose <=-
JB> Do you have sources for these "malaprops?" The mike, the phone cord,
JB> and the clock?
JB> I know 'Inside Edition' is not exactly the most reliable production
JB> around, but even THEY did a debunking on that. They interviewed the
JB> man who was supposed to have dated it to 1947. He stated very clearly
JB> that the film STOCK could have been manufactured anywhere between 1942
JB> and 1957. But that was the only thing he was asked to do. It said
JB> nothing about WHEN the film was used. (And it is possible that whoever
JB> is responsible for the 'autopsy' found unused old film stock.)
JB> The other thing 'IE' showed were some stills...of the 'alien', a hand
JB> with a makeup pallette in it and another hand with brushes. They also
JB> has an FX person show exactly how some of the things could have been
JB> done.
I saw some of this, but nowhere yet have I seen a referenceable source
list of the errors, that can be held in hand while watching the tape
(film) and compared with it. That's what I was looking for.
I've been arguing against Fundie-Bible-Literalist Creationists for FAR
too long. I know how easy it is for a "true believer" (be he Fundie or
UFO addict) to get around objections. I need something _definitive_.
Absent that, there's no stopping the progress of irrational belief-
systems.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... "Which came first: the line or the point?"
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: firmament
|Date: 27 Feb 96 17:24:00
EID:216f 205b8b00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62cf7cfc
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892F439D
MH>>> I don't think Genesis is geocentric.
JH>>> What is firmament?
JH>> 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness
JH>> [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved
JH>> upon the face of the waters.
JH>> 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which
JH>> [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above
JH>> the firmament: and it was so.
JH>> 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening
JH>> and the morning were the second day.
MH> That doesn't mean the author thought the earth was the
MH> physical center of the universe, now does it?
The earth existed before the creation of the heavens according to
the Genesis account. Yes, that DOES mean the author thought he was
at the physical center of the universe. Everything else was created
around it later on.
It's clearly and explicitly geo-centric.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Prewett's Christanic fantasies
|Date: 27 Feb 96 17:27:18
EID:04cb 205b8b60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62cf8147
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 313294ac
JH>> Then Prewett will have "a crisis of faith" as he has
JH>> called it.
RJ> And of course, I'm sure JP's posts pertaining to the JFK-
RJ> Kissinger prophecy have been archived?
Check.
RJ> His home snailmail address acquired, so that printed transcripts
RJ> might be sent to his mailbox when he suddenly never posts in
RJ> HOLY_SMOKE again?
That I don't have. If he ever posted it I missed it (not surprising,
I delete large blocks of his messages unread).
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: suckup
|Date: 27 Feb 96 17:30:05
EID:e9dc 205b8bc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 62cf866b
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892F439E
MH>> The number of Holy Smoke atheists that I find worth the
MH>> time of day just dropped by one.
JH>> Pushed yer button, didn't I?
MH> Yup. Maliciously.
Nope, flippantly.
You bore me frequently, but you haven't angered me.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ABORT ALL THEM Promise Keepers! (Then eat Staal's remains.)
|Date: 27 Feb 96 06:07:03
EID:74be 205b30e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3133a4f3
REPLY: 1:102/890.666@FidoNet 1b8c3ff4
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Sue and Fredric were killing time yakking about ABORT ALL THEM Promise Keepers!
(Then eat Staal's remains.):
FR> I must opine that women don't leave abusive men for the primary reason
FR> that they have nowhere to go, no skills to market, and have their
FR> children's health and safety in mind (and thus continue to play
FR> herself and her children in danger.)
FR> Is it really low self-esteem that keeps women inside rather than
FR> financial bondage to the male?
Both -- but the low self-esteem comes first. I hate to be giving lessons
in
how to be a successful abuser, but the FIRST step is to convince your victim
that they are utterly dependant on you -- there there IS nobody better out
there who would have them, that what they get is all they deserve, that
they're
too stupid/dingy/disorganized/crazy to be competent to deal with the nitty
gritty details of life -- like having spending money or access to the bank
account, or any knowledge of what the household's financial resources are.
Thus the abusers first set themselves up as PROTECTOR from the bad cruel
world, and deny access (or the ability to gain access) to any sort of financial
or emotional independance. Once the victim is in that position (and by
this
time completely convinced that it is for her own good, and that she really
IS
incapable of anymore), it is an easy step to begin verbally and sometimes
physically -- because she seriously has nowhere else to go, not financially
and not even emotionally.
The biggest threat to the abuser's status is for his victim to gain emotional
support even more so than financial support. And they know this - that
is
why such a large warning sign of the potential for abuse is finding the
victim
very limited in her outside contacts. There are rifts with the family,
so
that they can not see (and point out) what is happening. Friends become
a
burden, because the abuser doesn't "like" them, and gives the victim hell
everytime she sees them. So the friends fade out of her life. He wants
her
home where he can "take care of her" (and not coincidentally, where he can
more closely moniter her contacts).
My ex's big mistake was being so cocksure of himself, he pulled a Cinderella's
stepmother on me. I wanted to go to college and he said fine, but HE wouldn't
be paying for it. He thought that was the end of it. I got 2 jobs and
went to
school evenings, paying for everything a Pell grant didn't cover -- and
found
out that in the eyes of the rest of the world, I was intelligent and of
considerable value -- something that was directly at odds with what he'd
led
me to believe. The contradiction was too much to deal with, and something
had
to go. It was him. :)
I moved out with a grand total of $650.00 (Part of which had been stashed
by
me, and part that was "stolen" out of our joint account -- which he'd never
let
me have access to) and moved into a trailer that was one step up from a
cardboard box. I so badly wanted away from him that I didn't even get a
lawyer. I signed over a house and two cars, and settled for an initial
settlement that was *just* enough to by a $700.00 heap that probably hadn't
been a good vehicle when it was new -- but it was MINE. And when I shut
the
door to that trailor, it was MINE, too. And it felt like a castle.
The financial hardships of leaving were enough to make me have to delay
leaving,
but it was the emotional garbage that put me there and kept me there as
long
as it did -- it wasn't until THAT part was lifted that I could picture myself
overcoming the monetary burden.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Wrong thinking is punishable." -- The Keeper
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:30:20
EID:a5a7 205c3bc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8001e
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094259
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
sr> I have heard at least two other glaring technical-prop
sr> continuity screw-ups, too. Guess the hoaxers didn't do
sr> their homework well enough! :)
FR> Someone also pointed out that the model of the telephone used
FR> didn't exist at the time.
Haha! And they wonder why people just let this alien-video *garbage* simply
pass into oblivion where it belongs...along with CBS's 'Great Babble Travesty'
shows and the Xtian propaganda show, 'The 700-Club.'
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Get Stuffed!
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:37:23
EID:c838 205c3ca0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80021
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 132eb419
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
John Prewett wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
JP> I don't believe you are competent to judge the creator of all that is.
SR> Since there is no such Being... [---------]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JP> Opinion noted.
Hey...so is that what your fundy babble blinders look like? I see you use
it effectively when you block the reality of another person's post. Much
like you block out reality in general, instead being merely content to believe
in those mythical gawd creatures being spoon-fed into your cranial cavity.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 27 Feb 96 15:26:31
EID:a86d 205b7b40
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 13361fa4
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89284605
Hello Michael!
Michael Hardy wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
-=> Quoting Mimi Milstein to Ryan Shaw <=-
MM> There is always Graham Hancock's Flood theory, set out in
MM> "Fingerprints of the Gods", which does NOT require extra water,
MM> and which does NOT make a liar out of Noah or any of the other
MM> authors of Flood descriptions, as long as you accept that what
MM> these authors saw as a "deluge of the world" was in fact more
MM> localized. What we have here are memories of the violent end of
MM> the iceage - presented as legends from all over the world. Each
MM> society encountered "the end of the world by deluge" and spoke
MM> the truth as they saw it - but "the end" did not necessarily
MM> happen simultaneously.
MH> That's a fairly common conclusion drawn by many Christians.
MH> However, you'll find that most of the atheists on Holy
MH> Smoke take the Bible much more literally than many
MH> Christians do. ;-)
I agree :-) this is a very confrontational echo - come Hell or
high water, everybody has to hammer everybody else - if it makes
sense or not.
I, personally, tend to take side whith the "scientific community'
and thus have problems in taking things on face value [as being
recommended by the Christians]
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Gender
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:24:27
EID:59a1 205c3b00
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 13451270
REPLY: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 1c125b7b
Hello Sean!
Sean McCullough wrote in a message to Mimi Milstein:
> SM> That you SA'ns owe to your India neighbors. Women DO own
> SM> most of the private sector in that nation; they control a
> SM> great deal of the rest corporately; and their first female
> SM> head of state, Indira Gandhi, was no slouch.
> Unfortunately SA's Indian population is too small and has had too
> little influence to imprint the general public here.
SM> It's the India population IN INDIA who impacted you here.
SM> During the years of the trade sanctions, India was your
SM> largest trading partner. And women DO own most of India --
SM> enough of it DIRECTLY that they can make it matter. Hence,
SM> men throughout the South Indian Ocean realize that often
SM> women are in business for themselves.
I am afraid you are misinformed here. India had full trade
sanctions against South Africa up to the time Mandela came into
power in 94. Except for a few imports via third parties in the
far east it was impossible to obtain anything from India - even
if some individual traders were interested their government
prevented it.
UK, USA, Germany, Benelux, Japan were major trading partners
during the apartheid era - and still are.
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
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|From: Mimi Milstein
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Dont have the time.
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:01:48
EID:6cd7 205c4020
MSGID: 5:7107/21.0 13451271
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62c24f29
Hello J.J.!
J.J. Hitt wrote in a message to Asmodeus:
A> [BSorry if any of u have sent me anything recently. I've been too
A> busy to get it as I am quite busy in my daily schedule now, and
A> dont have the time to hang out in the echos and read/respond to
A> all my mail. If you want you can send some netmail to this
A> address larryv@voyager.com and I'll try to get back to you.
JJH> You poor baby, your parents told you to get a job or move out.
Job! Are you kidding? He probably had to give up his paper route
and devote all his time to extensive tutoring for the upcoming
highschool entry examination.
JJH> Oh... by the way... remember that curse of yours?
I think little Larry has other things on his mind now adays...
like 'what will daddy say or DO if I flunk for the second time?'
... Greetings from Mimi
--- timEd 1.01
* Origin: The Purdah - don't even TRY to knock... Randbg, SA (5:7107/21)
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 27 Feb 96 20:27:00
EID:caa1 205ba360
-> JA> I still insist that I am not an idiot.:) I could have JA>
-> been...then...but not now. Find a differnt person to pick on.
-> Maintain your silence and you shall get your wish.
Nope, sorry, no can do. You see, i enjoy Holysmoke too much for
that. So I'll just be waiting around for my chance to jump in again.
Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used to be. Do
ya think any one would be interested? nah...probably not. Myabe you're
right. Guess I'll just read...not write.;)
C-ya laters!
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 27 Feb 96 20:29:00
EID:f6fd 205ba3a0
-> Does that mean that you gave up on your religion?
Take it however you like.;) But just between you and me....let's say I
have a new outlook on life.
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 27 Feb 96 20:32:00
EID:d5b1 205ba400
-> > I still insist that I am not an idiot.:)
-> Do you still believe in dogmatic fairytales?
You can call them what you like. I'm not willing to totally bash
Christianity, nor will I ever. I find it morally wrong to criticize
others for their beliefs. But you could say I have been thinking a
lot.:)
-> Ah, good. Glad to hear that you're no longer a Christian.
Me too!;) you wouldn't believe how long it took me to admit that.
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 27 Feb 96 10:49:34
EID:2729 205b5620
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3132e204
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62b301ff
25 Feb 96 13:34, J.J. Hitt wrote to John Prewett:
JP>> This is called "free enterprise" at work.
JP>> It's part of what made America the most free and
JP>> properous nation the world had ever seen.
JP>> It's also fair because anyone that don't
JP>> like it can start their own business.
JH> When are YOU going to start YOUR own business?
JH> Anyone can do it, you just said so.
He already has - he's following in the time honored profession of making
crackpot prophecies.
Unfortuantely, that job doesn't pay as well as it once did, so he's forced
to live on the dole.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:21:55
EID:32b2 205b72a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3133139c
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 313159d3
25 Feb 96 10:30, Kenneth Cavness wrote to John Prewett:
KC> He _must_ have been a Social Darwinist.
Good to see you again.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Dont have the time.
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:21:17
EID:b369 205b72a0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31331375
26 Feb 96 01:27, Asmodeus wrote to ALL:
A> [BSorry if any of u have sent me anything recently. I've been too busy
A> to get it as I am quite busy in my daily schedule now, and dont have
A> the time to hang out in the echos and read/respond to all my mail. If
A> you want you can send some netmail to this address larryv@voyager.com
A> and I'll try to get back to you.
I'm still waiting on my curse, buttpimple.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 27 Feb 96 02:25:07
EID:af5f 205b1320
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31326e76
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313061ef
23 Feb 96 19:24, Andrew Masten wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> I see you're confused, Andy - that really doesn't surprise me.
DW>> You have yet to provide anything beyond supposition and guesses.
DW>> Try again.
AM> No, David. Supposition and guesses were the type of rhetoric you
AM> employed in refutation to my arguments. Then you justify it by
AM> claiming that you don't need empirical evidence in refutation of
AM> my evidence.
I'm going to try to explain this to you one last time, Andy. Listen real
close now, ok? I'm going to make this as simple as I possibly can.
You have no evidence. In order for you to say that this universe is well
designed for life, as compared to all other possible universe, you would
have to have gone to (at least most of) those other possible universes and
compared the conditions there with the conditions here. Since those other
universes apparently do not exist, you have no evidence. All you have is
supposition, based on our less-than-complete understanding of this universe,
as to what those other possible universes are like. Do you understand now,
or should I have Mr. Spock (who you apparently view as a real scientist)
sing it to you?
Calling the Argument from Ignorance evidence does not automatically make
it evidence, junior.
DW>> Exactly. You did not quote the source with the information. You
DW>> plagiarized. You're going to hell, son.
AM> Show me where I claimed that evidence for my own?
Irrelevant. You did not quote the source you cut and pasted the data from.
AM> Besides I gave you the
AM> source in this reply,
*After* you had been called on your plagiarism. Kinda like a thief giving
back what he stole after being caught, hoping for leniency from the court.
AM> I'm a blood bought son of God.
You're a disgusting little shit. And people wonder why we refer to christianity
as a death cult.
AM>> Of course you have yet to cite a single source in rebuffing the
AM>> evidence I presented.
DW>>> I'm still waiting for you to tell me just how science
DW>>> precludes God.
I'm still waiting.
AM>> And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what your credentials
AM>> are,
DW>> Irrelevant.
And I still need no credentials to ask you this question. How does science
preclude God?
AM>> what degree's you have and what was your master thesis??
DW>> Also irrelevant. What does my educational status have to do with
DW>> the above question? Answer it.
AM> Because you act as if you had credentials to evaluate scientific
AM> claims.
I see no scientific claim. I see a claim, made by you, that science precludes
God. Back your claim up, junior.
DW>> Right. Yet you claimed that Jupiter had no carbon and nitrogen.
DW>> Regardless, Jupiter is a *big* planet, with a diameter of 88,700
DW>> miles at the equator. "Trace" amounts of carbon, for Jupiter,
DW>> would be a mass of carbon equivalent to (or greater than) the
DW>> Earth's mass. That's a lot of carbon, dipshit. Do try to
DW>> understand these things next time, before embarassing yourself
DW>> again, ok?
AM> I was rash in claiming there is no carbon on Jupiter.
Good of you to admit that.
AM> However your claim that there's plenty is unsubstatiated.
That all depends on what is meant by "plenty", doesn't it?
AM> In any event, I am not aware of any scientists claiming, or
AM> even proposing that there is or was life forming on Jupiter.
AM> Trace elements of carbon notwithstanding.
Irrelevant. Where did I claim any such thing? Try to stick to the point
at hand, Andrew.
DW>> Consider that you have yet to produce any scientific data, I need
DW>> no credentials.
AM> No, I produced a lengthy list of scientific data.
Read the first paragraph from me. You have no evidence. You have wild-assed
guesses.
DW>>>> I see you failed to answer his question. Why must this designer
DW>>>> you speak of be Jehovah?
AM>>> If you don't believe we are created, what difference does it
AM>>> make? If you do, you can compare religions for yourself.
DW>> Why don't you answer the question instead of doing the fundy
DW>> shuffle?
AM> Haa! Your the biotic soup a drinkin, Origin of Species thumpin, time
AM> and
AM> chance and mutagen believin, evolungelical fundamentalist. You
AM> provide
AM> the empirical scientific evidence that atoms self assembled into a
AM> universe, then utimately self assembled into humans.
I'm not making that claim. As for the rest, I trust you can support any
of those claims better than you can your claim that God created the universe?
DW>> Show the connection between this Designer you speak of and
DW>> Jehovah. Could it be that you are unable to do so, and simply
DW>> don't have the balls to admit it?
AM> If, you are willing to concede that my belief in a Designer is at
AM> least or more compelling than a naturalistic explanation, then I
AM> will procede with why I think Jehovah is the best candidate.
Irrelevant. Why is your ability to show a link between some as yet unnamed
Creator and Jehovah dependent on my belief in the existence of this creator?
Show this connection, or admit that you are unable to, li'l lying fundy.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 27 Feb 96 10:26:25
EID:af5f 205b5340
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3132dd08
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 312f0285
23 Feb 96 09:47, Andrew Masten wrote to Dan Ceppa:
AM> Evidence for fine tuning of universe.
This again?
Did you figure out all the parts that confused you?
Here, let's make sure you actually *understand* what you claim to be evidence,
ok?
AM> 1. Strong nuclear force constant
AM> If larger; no hydrogen; nuclei essential for life would be
AM> unstable If smaller; no elements other than hydrogen
Explain. Why is this so?
AM> 2. Weak nuclear force constant
AM> If larger; too much hydrogen converted to helium in big bang,
AM> hence too much heavy element material made by star burning ; no
AM> expulsion of heavy elements from stars
AM> if smaller; too little helium produced from big bang, hence too
AM> little heavy element material made by star burning; no expulsion
AM> of heavy elements from stars
Explain. Why is this so?
AM> 3. Gravitational force constant
AM> if larger; stars would be too hot and would burn up quicky and
AM> unevenly if smaller; stars would remain so cool that nuclear
AM> fusion would never ignite, hence no heavy element production
Explain. Why is this so?
AM> 4. Electromagnetic force constant
AM> 5. Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force
AM> 6. Ratio of electron to protron mass
AM> 7. Ratio of protron to number of electrons
AM> 8. Expansion rate of universe
AM> 9. Entropy level of universe
AM> 10. Mass density of universe
AM> 11. Velocity of light
AM> 12. Age of universe
AM> 13. Initial uniformity of radiation
AM> 14. Fine structure constant( a number used to describe the fine
AM> 15. Average distance between stars
AM> 16. Decay rate of proton
AM> 17. C to O nuclear energy level ratio
AM> 18. Ground state energy level for HE
AM> 19. Decay rate of BE
AM> 20. Mass excess of nuetron over the proton
AM> 21. Intial excess of nucleons over antinucleons
AM> 22. Polarity of water molecule
AM> 23. Supernova eruptions
AM> 24. White dwarf binaries
AM> 25. Ratio of mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter
Do the same for all of the above.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FUNDAMENTALIST ARE IN
|Date: 27 Feb 96 14:07:16
EID:4235 205b70e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31331057
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62ba31dc
26 Feb 96 02:33, J.J. Hitt wrote to AL SCHROEDER:
AS>> I must admit I wonder if he was raised Catholic and had a bad
AS>> experience, or whether his prejudice is a result of his
AS>> upbringing by parents or a church that has a strong
AS>> anti-Catholic bias.
JH> I also wonder if John wasn't Catholic at one time.
Lynda and I were chatting about this on IRC just yesterday. We came to the
conclusion that, at the very least, he attended a Catholic school with very
strict nuns.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: I'll take what's behind Staal #3, Monty.
|Date: 27 Feb 96 02:54:27
EID:c817 205b16c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313272d2
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdc9
Which of the various Staal personae is in possession of the neuron tonight?
15 Feb 96 15:45, mARK sTAAL wrote to Fredric Rice and Jim Staal:
ms> nest time send it to the right person MORON.
We are sending it to the right person, Jimbob.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 27 Feb 96 02:56:43
EID:3ac7 205b1700
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31327328
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 312dbdb9
Which of the various Staal personae is in possession of the neuron tonight?
23 Feb 96 13:14, Mark Staal wrote to Fredric Rice:
MS> address the mail to _him_! If you can't comprehend the fact that Jim
MS> is not here no more and that Mark Staal and Lump are the same
MS> and are not Jim,
Whatever you say, Jimbob.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolung
|Date: 27 Feb 96 10:31:18
EID:1019 205b53e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3132de97
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 312f027d
22 Feb 96 07:50, Andrew Masten wrote to Elliott Finesse:
EF>> There you go. I mean, you don't pretend to know more about
EF>> theology than a seminary trained clergyman do you?
AM> Some seminary schools are so secular, you can get a degree without
AM> even knowing the names of the books of the bible.
Name these seminaries.
>>> "When it come to the origins of life there are
>> > only to [sic] possiblities:
EF>> This is a logical fallacy, the one known as "bifurcation." (the
EF>> claim that there are only two alternatives when others can and
EF>> do exist) Why are there only "to" (sic) possiblities? Because he
EF>> says so? I hardly think a scientist would make such a claim -
EF>> without offering evidence in its support - and it is even less
EF>> likely that a scientist would expect any other scientist to
EF>> accept such a claim on his say-so.
AM> Why don't you counter this argument by explaining what the other
AM> alternatives are?
You don't read real well, do you? Elliot just explained why Wald's argument
was fallacious - there is no need to "[explain] what the other alternatives
are."
EF>> A "scientist" would know that evolution doesn't have _anything_
EF>> to do with the orgins of life. Your ignorance on this point
Read the above again.
AM> The theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin in his book
AM> Origins and Species has nothing to do with origins?
Try getting the title of the book right, dipshit. Darwin talked about the
origin of species, not the origin of life. The theory of evolution does
not address the origin of life.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Web Site
|Date: 27 Feb 96 10:39:17
EID:7e63 205b54e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3132df92
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 130bd372
25 Feb 96 13:53, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to All:
TP> For those of you who have access to the InterNet World Wide Web:
I have just given the "jack-booted thugs" my archives of your posts. They're
going to be coming after *you* real soon now. Run and hide, little looney.
Be sure to take all your guns with you, ok?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Yo...
|Date: 27 Feb 96 02:59:05
EID:367e 205b1760
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 313273c7
REPLY: 1:284/120 570387f0
22 Feb 96 16:54, Dawn Kleuser wrote to J.J. Hitt:
DK> Are you some sort of Pagan Occultist? With a name like J.j.
DK> Hitt, I'd wonder.
Please share with us exactly what makes you think the name "J.J. Hitt" has
anything to do with "Pagan Occutism". Maybe an angel told you?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:57:24
EID:921a 205c6720
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3134895c
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 31310486
Kenneth Cavness said "Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!" to All,
adding:
KC> I simply lost access to a computer with a BBS... thank goodness
KC> for the Internet!
Good to see you back! Frankly, I found it astonishing
that Austin, Texas, a college town, appeared to lack
computers and/or HolySmoke connections, but then Texans move
in wonderous ways their wonders to perform.
KC> Viva la Holysmoke!
You will doubtless be happy to see that the fundies have
not grown any brighter since Stringfellow, though they have
grown more numerous. The echo remains a target-rich
environment.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: The Raven
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:57:24
EID:699a 205c6720
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3134895d
REPLY: 1:363/309.0 3131c138
The Raven said "Thumb-sucking Fundy" to Andrew Masten,
adding:
AM> How is your thought any less presumtive?
TR> Because unlike you, I don't assume that the universe was created
TR> simply to produce me.
Try though you might, I defy you to come up with a more
dismal thought than a universe created to crank out an
Andrew Masten.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000 1041
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SEEN-BY: 261/3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:57:25
EID:1461 205c6720
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3134895e
REPLY: 1:280/9 1d16ca36
Rob Burcham said "Al Schroeder" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> DW> More than you do, apparently. Should we paint a target on JJ's
DM> DW> forehead to make sure you hit him next time?
DM>
DM> Nah. Then we'd only having some loon claiming that he has
DM> known FOUR people with clitorectomies.
RB> Is that a subtle clue as to J.J.'s gender?
Not really. I have a suspicion that our dear cash
register repairman sees no connection between the operation
and any particular gender, and I posted in that light . . .
However, J.J. and I may be seeing one another May 1, so
his/her secret may be out (unless I am bribed).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:57:25
EID:2725 205c6720
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3134895f
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89300E3A
Dan Ceppa said "holysmoke.faq.ah" to Don Martin,
adding:
DC> the country. Was getting lonely here... }:-)
MB> Am I no longer deemed to be in your corner?
DM> He doesn't get too cosy across state lines. Mann Act and
DM> all that sort of thing . . . .
DC> I was just trying to avoid associating her with Masten!
I suspect that our Marilyn can deal with that one.
DC> Besides, should that be the "Womann Act"?
Depends, mebbe, on the sort of "immoral purposes" you
have in mind.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Asbestos underware
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:57:25
EID:7705 205c6720
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31348960
REPLY: 1:352/266 31325C07
Masochistic Maiden said "Asbestos underware" to George Rudzinski,
adding:
GR> george
MM> Hey! Then I can just relax and let George do it????
Sure. You may, however, wish to check first on just what
it is that he proposes to get done.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: churches
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:57:26
EID:9b40 205c6720
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31348961
REPLY: 1:105/40.666 068eb542
Marilyn Burge said "churches" to Al Schroeder,
adding:
MB> On (25 Feb 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...
AS> They tested okay, but they said the real test would be
AS> putting it in.
MB> I just thought I'd shoot this back so you'd know how it looks
MB> through the eyes of a dirty old lady.
I would have thought that a REALLY dirty old lady would
be more convinced by the test of KEEPING it in . . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ANGELS....
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:57:26
EID:f5a1 205c6720
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31348962
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094257
Fredric Rice said "ANGELS...." to Dawn Kleuser,
adding:
> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and
> would like to hear any stories anyone has about them.
FR> Interesting but not very rational. I'm curious why you would believe
FR> in something to silly. Do you also believe in fairies, pixies, and
FR> warewolves?
You mean the ones who huff, and who puff, and who blow
down warehouses?
THAT is a wolf with cojones! (or at least terrific
lungs.)
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000 1041
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 345/12 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: FOF "HATE" 2
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:33:00
EID:31f3 205c4420
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Judith Bandsma <=-
DW>
DW> Yeah, Judith! What's yer fuckin' problem anyway? Don't you know that
DW> Dobson was only being "allegorical"?
I'm still trying to figure out how New York moved to the west coast. Or
maybe that was a hypothetical New York (or is that rhetorical...geez, it's
so hard to keep these things straight.)
... I have a dream: DIR C: 965465065464984030373436 bytes free...
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: BUTTPIMPLE SATANIST FAILS
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:36:00
EID:0754 205c4480
-=> Quoting Robert Jackson to Judith Bandsma <=-
RJ> Oh, yass! I gots me a girlfriend now. Bunches o' other
RJ> neat stuff besides.
Well, if you start to say you've become a Buchanan supporter, *I'll* put
a curse on you that will make Assmodiddly's piffling attempt on JJ look
like a reading of Dr. Seuss.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: All
|Sub: demons...DEMONS
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:38:00
EID:046f 205c44c0
Well, all, I'm back. Actually I've been here all along, but the computer
is
back. It went into the shop a 1966 VW bug and came out a Lhamborgini.
Great wizardry...almost.
First off, my 3.5 floppy from my old system couldn't be used in the new
one.
Seems like Acer designs them to ONLY work in Acer systems and, like some
checks, are non-transferable. I guess I was lucky, that was the only thing
I had to pay extra for. (And only $31 at that)
When we were going over the work order as I was about to bring it home I
noticed that it said 8mb RAM. Whoa, horsey! I PAID for 16. They weren't
too
happy to be installing an extra 8...at 2 minutes to closing time.
Oh well! That's life. Now, I get it home and set up and turn it on. After
all, I haven't downloaded mail in quite some time. Big problem. They
managed, somehow, to lose ALL the .dll files needed for my comm program
(and my netscape, and quicken, and several other things) A couple of
reinstalls and backing up from floppy took care of that. However, while
trying to learn my way around Win95, I managed to trash a whole d/l
directory and lost some very cutting replies to Mike and a few others.
(Sorry, I don't feel like doing them again) I can see where Win95 might
be
an improvement over 3.1 IF YOU ONLY HAVE ONE ***EMPTY*** HARD DRIVE.
I have 2, however...with all the same info on both of them and it is getting
to be a real headache to try to move the files around to make the best use
of my space. Eight hours at home and I've already had to defrag BOTH drives.
When the computer store opens up at 10am, I am going to have to call them.
I've run into the screwiest problem I have EVER seen and I hope they can
help. I have this OLD game program that I like to play around with from
time to time...sort of a D&D type thing that is just a good time waster
for
when I don't really want to think too hard and have no books to read.
Except for the music, this thing runs on my old 286 with *1* meg of RAM.
DOS only, of course. Last night I tried launching it on the new system just
to see how it would look. (Yes, I did drop to DOS mode first...I ain't *that*
dumb) And I get...are you ready for this one?..."Yserbius needs 512K to
run.
Insufficient memory". Uh, guys...I've got 16mb, so what gives? I guess a
few demons have escaped from the dungeon and infested the system.
Somebody pray for it.
... O Lord, protect me from those to whom You speak directly.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 28 Feb 96 09:08:00
EID:9a1b 205c4900
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Anthony Grigor-scott <=-
AG> not as yet having been born into the Family.
DC> The litter you are part of is rather diseased, another indication
DC> that Al is happy to make between you and himself.
The only thing you can do with a litter like that is make sure they are
spayed and neutered as soon as feasibly possible...and hope you can find
good homes for them, with fenced yards so they aren't a danger to the
neighbors.
... BEWARE OF OWNER... NEVER MIND THE DOG.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ANGELS...
|Date: 28 Feb 96 09:26:00
EID:41e6 205c4b40
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Dawn Kleuser <=-
> MAILBOX WITH THE SNIDE COMMENTS. I WILL NOW BOW OUT, NEVER TO BOTHER
> YOU AGAIN.
FR> "Snide comments..." Why not just answer our honest questions
FR> honestly?
Shit...I missed it! From now on, I'm asking for a loaner if I have to
take my machine into the shop.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: JABBERBOCK
|Date: 28 Feb 96 09:40:00
EID:fa35 205c4d00
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to David Rice <=-
MM> Haven't heard that literature in a while. References so I can grab
it
MM> again? Thanks for posting something I can really enjoy!
Jabberwocky...Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass. Available
EVERYWHERE.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 25 Feb 96 18:57:00
EID:a61e 20599720
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Hey Al! You weren't posting to me, but I saw it. First thing I've
RH> seen from you in AGES!!
AS> Glad to hear it, Roger. It seems that Michigan, Colorado, Washington
AS> state
AS> could not see me while I posted off my other BBS. Unfortunately, it
AS> seems that Micheal STILL can't see me in nearby Alabama when I post
AS> off this one. So my Fidonet problems are still not over. But Lynda,
AS> Judith, JJ, Dave Worrell, Preston and others could still see me while
AS> I've been posting as usual.
Remarkable! Still, given the nature of FIDO, the wonder is that it works
AT ALL!
In any case, I'm glad you're back. The quality of posts has suffered
greatly in your absence.
RH> I thought the heathens had got you.
AS> Nope; had a fire that took out part of my home (including my computer
My condolences, but I saw that everyone was OK, which is all that
really matters. Most things can be replaced; people cannot.
Wonder if Job explained that to YHVH?
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:13:00
EID:bdcd 205999a0
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Dan Ceppa <=-
AM> This evidence I've presented is for the universe at large. There
AM> are another 32 parameters that have to be satisfied for a planet
AM> like ours to develop.
Andrew, all you have shown is that our universe is well-suited
to living things.
Since we are here, we already know that.
And if things were different, we would not be here.
So?
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:20:00
EID:4a37 20599a80
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Elliott Finesse <=-
AS> Last I heard, the Japanese Kamikazi did not claim firsthand witness
AS> of miracles like the Resurrection of Hirohito. The disciples DID claim
AS> firsthand witness of the Resurrection of Jesus. It DOES make a
AS> difference.
No, it does not. The point is that you have said that the disciples
believed that Jesus had been resurrected and were willing to die for
that belief so it must be true because they would not die willingly
otherwise.
But you have been given many examples from modern times of people
who have willingly died for obviously (to us) false beliefs.
... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LIBRARIES
|Date: 25 Feb 96 19:41:00
EID:b331 20599d20
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Aaron Boyden <=-
AS> If I'm understanding you here, no, that's a logical impossibility.
AS> You can't compel the direction of a free choice. Otherwise it is not
AS> free but limited, guided, whatever. It's not free. It's like telling
AS> someone they are free to go anywhere they want to but shoving them in
AS> the direction they should go.
You mean like "You may worship me or not, but you'll burn in hell
if you don't"?
If so, then we don't have free will, do we?
... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 28 Feb 96 02:23:20
EID:6dc6 205c12e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3133bcbf
REPLY: 1:280/9 1d16ca35
25 Feb 96 02:03, Rob Burcham wrote to Elliott Finesse:
RB> I can't help noticing how most (if not all) of the 'former'
RB> Christians who appear in Holysmoke are bright, articulate
RB> individuals. Why is it that apostates are seldom bumbling
RB> asswipes?... "Uh, I tried to get saved, Billy Bob, but it
RB> just didn't make no sense."
RB> Could there be a connection between intelligence and apostasy?
Us apostates shore think so, Elrod. :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Asmodeus
|Sub: Dont have the time.
|Date: 28 Feb 96 01:55:52
EID:b369 205c0ee0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3133b68e
26 Feb 96 01:27, Asmodeus wrote to ALL:
A> the time to hang out in the echos and read/respond to all my mail. If
A> you want you can send some netmail to this address larryv@voyager.com
A> and I'll try to get back to you.
----- Transcript of session follows -----
<<< HELO TCHM03A6.RMT.UTK.EDU
<<< MAIL From:
<<< RCPT To:
<<< DATA
Connected to voyager.com:
>>> RCPT To:
<<< 550 User is not allowed to receive internet email.
550 ... User unknown
Why don't you get Satan to give you a real internet address, dipshit?
I'm *still* waiting on my curse. What is taking you so long?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Embarassing questions?
|Date: 28 Feb 96 02:34:09
EID:f75c 205c1440
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3133bf35
REPLY: 1:352/266 31325C0A
26 Feb 96 15:26, Masochistic Maiden wrote to Fredric Rice:
FR>> No, it's best just to leave them alone. We're far too busy trying
FR>> to make deity believers answer embarrassing questions than to put
FR>> forth all the effort needed to change the subject header.
MM> Why ask them the questions? I'm having a little problem with
MM> understanding the motivation.... is it a bit like throwing stones at
MM> ducks on the water?
Do ducks try to prohibit people from doing with their bodies as they wish?
Do ducks try to prohibit free expression of ideas? Do ducks burn books?
Do ducks waddle around trying to get all other creatures to become ducks?
Most importantly, are ducks born as ducks, or do they make a choice to become
ducks?
If these Christians/ducks were content to let others live their lives as
they saw fit, you'd see a lot less rock throwing.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: information
|Date: 28 Feb 96 02:26:15
EID:bcc3 205c1340
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3133be00
REPLY: 1:280/9 1d16ca34
24 Feb 96 01:33, Rob Burcham wrote to Michael Hardy:
MH>> People are *not* merely animals, even though we share some
MH>> characteristics with animals. Porn debases humanity, the dignity
MH>> of the human being.
RB> We share everything with animals except a higher level
RB> of sentience. Porn depicts human sexual acts (which are
RB> nothing to be ashamed of). That is, until religion came
RB> along and taught us to hate that which is natural.
I really pity Mikey and all those that think as he does. Sex with love is
one of the best things in the world, but just plain mechanical sex ain't
half bad either.
Maybe we wouldn't have so many xtians flying of the handle and shooting
abortion doctors, gaybashing, and all the other violent acts they are known
to perform if they simply got their ashes hauled more often.
RB> Is religion so uncomfortable with sex because it, more
RB> than anything, reminds us of the animals we are? It takes
RB> a herculean effort to 'be one with God' while you're doing
RB> the nasty.
Unless the god in question is Aphrodite, of course. :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: All
|Sub: CDA bans bible! - SPREAD THE WORD!!!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 15:37:34
EID:ab0c 205d7ca0
MSGID: 1:123/67 3135c854
PID: GED3 2.5.b6 124LM3
THE BIBLE VS THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT
(c)1996 by A.Lizard
Non-commmercial use of this document INCLUDING THIS COPYRIGHT NOTICE via
reposting or printing in non-commercial paper media is encouraged. For commercial
use, please contact the author at alizard@ecis.com .
I'd like to congratulate the Christian community for its success in making
the Bible and discussion of many portions thereof illegal in cyberspace
via the "Communications Decency Act"(CDA) amendment to the Telecommunications
Reform Act of 1995.
Whatever was intended with respect to "porn" simply doesn't matter. The
Bible (and everything else) ban is what we got, the CDA IS that badly conceived
and drawn.
Any system administrator or sysop in the "free" US who has the full text
of the Bible available for download on their systems can look forward to
a knock on the door from the Feds, to having their systems confiscated,
and to 2 years in prison and a $100,000 fine.
Due to the CDA as just passed by the House (Senate passed it 89-11 several
months ago) parts of the Bible are I-L-L-E-G-A-L if transmitted or made
available via the Internet or hobbyist BBS or networked computer system.
That makes THE BIBLE AS A WHOLE illegal to e-mail or upload or knowingly
keep on a BBS or Internet site available for download by children. Any "offensive"
portion posted to Usenet will be treated the same way by the Feds they will
treat excerpts from most other works of great literature or discussions
using adult language or topics. By arresting the person posting or e-mailing.
This means Y-O-U.
BANNED TOPICS QUIZ: Which of these items are illegal under the
CDA?
a) A .GIF of necrophilia involving a child and a wildebeest.
b) The full text of the Bible.
c) Ulysses by James Joyce.
d) The collected works of Shakespeare.
e) An e-mail discussion between doctors regarding venereal
disease.
f) A frank discussion between 2 angry co-workers at different
company sites of an annoying boss.
g) An explicit e-mail discussion of last night's date between a
teenage couple.
h) The traditional kind of e-mail sent between soldiers in
wartime and their wives discussing. . . homecoming plans.
i) A file transmission of a segment of an average movie between a
Hollywood studio and a digital computer graphics special effects
company.
j) All of the above.
J is correct. They are ALL illegal. E,F and I just hint at how the CDA will
interfere with the ability of high-tech industries to do business over the
Net. Speaking as a person who has worked at quite a few high-tech companies,
I can state that competing with foriegn competitors who don't have the CDA
to deal with will be nearly impossible. Censorship is dangerous to a country's
economic health. It killed the Soviet Union. Even police states like Singapore
and China on the Net are trying to avoid it.
G would simply put a couple of children in jail behind a felony rap. Very
possibly yours. Of course, it's equally possible that they might go to jail
over discussing the Bible, too.
I'm not a Christian, but I'll be damned if I will let a Bill Clinton or
Newt Gingrich, or a Senator Exon who doesn't know how to use a computer
tell ME that I can't read one online if I feel like it. Any of you feel
the same way?
Giving a kid a print Bible is either spiritually uplifting or exposing her
to great literature, depending on viewpoint. Give the same kid an electronic
version with the same text and you're a dangerous criminal. Why? Ask almost
any Congressmoron. Or Pat Robertson.
While the CDA interferes with America's ability to do business as well,
banning the Bible on the Net is a subject that doesn't require detailed
explanation to people who aren't online. EVERYONE will get it.
Here is something you can do about the CDA RIGHT NOW!
Here's the part of my .sig file you need:
********************* COPY THIS SIG!!! *************************
Tbe Communications Decency Act:
"ANY comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image or other communication
in terms patently offensive as measured by community standards, sexual or
excretory activities or organs..."
From the Bible:
Rabshakeh asks: "Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak
these words? Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that
they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?" II
Kings 18:27 AND Isaiah 36:12
IF THIS BE PORNOGRAPHY, MAKE THE MOST OF IT!
*****************************************************************
If you want to tell the Feds that they can't tell YOU what portion of the
Bible or ANY other book you can post and discuss on line, copy THIS into
your .sig file and start posting to Usenet.
Or write the President (President@WhiteHouse.gov), the Attorney General,
and your Congressidiot with that .sig attached. (get that address, if there
is one, at www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html There may not
be, while ALL Congressjerks have e-mail addresses, some don't know it and
others don't think they are any of their constituent's business.)
Feel free to send your Congressthing a copy of this post as well. Get EVERYONE
you know to start using this sig. If you are under 18, get your parent's
permission before using it, in the unlikely event the Feds come for you,
you want your parents to know who to contact. Can they jail 20,000,000 of
us?
If YOU want to use the Internet as YOU will, instead of how a Congress of
technophobes PERMITS you to use it, start using my sig file and get your
friends to use it, too. EVERY use of my sig online is a violation of the
CDA. If Janet Reno prosecutes, she's busting you and me for QUOTING THE
BIBLE. If she doesn't, the CDA is dead no matter WHAT the courts do. A law
has to be either enforced all the time or none of it.
If the Feds come for you, have your friends let the people at www.eff.org
, www.aclu.org , www.cdt.org, www.epic.org, the news media, and Usenet comp.org.eff.talk
know. Somehow, I don't think help will be long in coming. "Computer User
Arrested For Quoting the Bible on Internet" is a news story that any Congressperson
who voted for CDA will be seeing in their nightmares for years to come.
By the way, there are references to oral sex, hemmorhoids, and quite a few
other "offensive" things in the Bible, some of which aren't all that clear
in the King James, others of which are explicitly obvious. Find them yourself.
Let's see ALL of them on the Net, in whatever translation will do the most
good, with copies sent to the President and the Attorney General. If you
come up with a better sig than mine for this purpose, let me know so I can
use it. Our allegedly "Christian" Congress doesn't know that the Bible is
NOT a G-rated book. If it were, it wouldn't be of any use to anybody for
spiritual guidance. There are reasons why editing the "offensive" portions
out of it is literally grounds for eternal damnnation. (Revelations 22:19)
Using the CDA to get rid of porn is like blowing up the Interstate Highway
system to keep US Mail trucks carrying porn from getting to its customers.
Let's put an end to it and to the careers of the people who voted for it.
I predict that this Congress will be known as the
***THE CONGRESS THAT BANNED THE BIBLE FROM THE INTERNET***
You want to clean the dead wood out of Congress from BOTH
PARTIES?
******************************************************************
SPREAD THE WORD ABOUT CONGRESS BANNING THE
BIBLE FROM THE NET EVERYWHERE!
******************************************************************
Tell everyone you know who IS NOT ONLINE as well.
A vote for the Telecommunications Reform Act is a vote to ban the Bible
from cyberspace. (And ANY discussion that can be considered adult by either
topic or language in either e-mail or in public posts.) Anybody who denies
this knows neither the bill nor the Bible.
Your local newspapers, radio talk shows, television news are good places
to start spreading the word. Ask your local media how they missed the fact
that the Telecommunications Reform Act bans the Bible from the Internet!
If you get your Congresscreature live on a talk show, ask him why he voted
'YES' on a Communications Decency Act that bans the Bible from the Internet
and if he tries to deny it, tell him "You didn't know? NEXT TIME, READ THE
BILLS YOU VOTE ON, IDIOT!" and hang up. Any elected official who voted for
the CDA has forfeited the right to be treated with public courtesy and respect.
Or to his or her salary. Forget about waiting for term limits, it's time
to throw out the garbage at the public trough NOW. They have endangered
our freedom of speech, they've endangered the national economy. In short,
they've through their own stupidity declared war on the Internet. You want
to wait around to find out what they're planning NEXT?
Vote for their major party opponents, work for them, send them money and
let these challengers know WHY you're on their side. If these opponents
don't have Web sites, offer to make them some, or if they're as bad as the
average political Web site, offer to fix it free. Do this whether you agree
with their other politics or not. Of course, if these opponents support
CDA and won't listen to reason, contact the Libertarian candidate for Congress
AT ONCE! Better a Libertarian who will vote to repeal CDA than the alternatives
who won't, and most are technologically literate.
Less than 1% of the House and Senate combined just said "NO!"
Here's a list of the people who stuck their necks way out for us, standing
against the President and the leadership of BOTH parties to vote NO on the
Bible ban. House: Abercrombie, Conyers, DeFazio, Frank (MA), Hilliard, Hinchley,
Johnson (SD), Nodler, Peterson (MN), Sanders, Shreder, Stark, Volkmer, Williams,
Vieks. Senate: Leahy, Feingold, Simon, Wellstone. The others voted yes
or abstained. The named list of people are OUR FRIENDS, regardless of their
usual politics.
Vote for them. Work for them.
Send them money. Put up Web sites for them. Whether you like them or not,
they voted right on the most important issue they will EVER vote on. If
we want to keep America free, politics as usual must stop RIGHT NOW. Forget
abortion, gun control, and welfare 'reform', this is a SERIOUS issue that
threatens both our freedom AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR JOBS.
You want to put an end to Clinton's career? Clinton went to a lot of trouble
to get out the word that he banned the bill that banned the Bible from the
Internet, though he called it a Telecommunications "Reform" Bill. Some reform!
*** PUT OUT THE WORD THAT CLINTON SIGNED ***
*** THE CYBERSPACE BIBLE BAN! ***
When the word gets around that Congress banned the Bible from cyberspace
because THE CHRISTIAN COALITION TOLD THEM TO. . . I'd REALLY like to know
why an allegedly Christian organization did this. I guess I'll have to stand
in line behind its membership on the Net for that answer. In the meantime,
fire up your Web browser, go to the Christian Coalition site (www.cc.org),
and look for their full-text copy of the Bible. You won't find one.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.aa
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:02:04
EID:84ef 20593040
MSGID: 1:250/820 009c32ab
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³UPDATED VERSION³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
ÚHeaderÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³The HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List ³
³Created by David Rice ³±±
³Current Author: C. J. Henshaw ³±±
³ Author/Editor: Rev. Coridon Henshaw (Church of OS/2) ³±±
³ ³±±
³Last Revised 15 Jan 11996 - Revision 666.025 ³±±
³ ³±±
³Compilation Copyright 1995 Coridon Henshaw. All rights reserved. ³±±
³Individual quotations remain the property of their respective owners. ³±±
³Free license for intra-HOLYSMOKE duplication and distribution. ³±±
³DUPLICATION OR DISCLOSURE TO NON-HOLYSMOKE PARTICIPENTS PROHIBITED. ³±±
³ ³±±
³If you are reading this on a WWW site, inform the author at the ³±±
³address at the bottom of this file. ³±±
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ4592Ù±±
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ÍDisclaimersÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
This product warps space and time in it's temporal and spacial location.
Do not expose to antimatter. Will not block gunfire. Do not ignite. Do
not eat. Definitions of words may vary. Contents may settle during
transfer.
Í1: IntroductionÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
See section 4.3 for details.
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿robeÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!³rtja³YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙcksoÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
The HOLYSMOKE echo exists so that off-topic religious issues from other
echoes
in Fidonet may be moved to an echo where they are topical. No one in the
past
four years has yet succeeded in helping any theist think past their
brainwashing, but there's always the chance that some god-believing cash-cow
will stop denying reality, so we continue to try.
All entries marked [OBSOLETE] will be deleted in the next version unless
someone asks for them to be retained.
This document is posted every four weeks.
Í2: TerminologyÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
atheist One who has no belief in deities. See 3.x for details.
Atheist Member of Amarican Athiests, inc.
athiest Used by theists to refer to those without morals.
agnostic An atheist without guts.
fundi Religous fundamentalist. See 3.6 for details.
liberal Anyone winning an argument with a creationist.
Hir Gender-neutral noun, "Her + Him = Hir."
Í3: Q&AÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
3.1 Q: What is HOLYSMOKE?
A: HOLYSMOKE is Fidonet's only non-denominational, uncensored religion
debate echo. Debates such as fundies vs athists can be conducted
here without danger of loosing your feed, like in other areas such
as HOLY_BIBLE or any other "christian" echo.
3.2 Q: Why was HOLYSMOKE created?
A: The moderator (Styx Allum) originally started the echo as a joke on
some local fundies. It took off from there.
3.3 Q: What kind of behavior is alowed here?
A: Most anything, including flames. One thing that will get you
booted is modification of other people's quotes. If somebody says
fuck and you quote them and change 'fuck' to 'f***' or some other
variation, you will be clobbered. Check the rules (posted on an
ad-hoc basis by the moderator) for more information.
3.4 Q: Are "flames" allowed?
A: Flames are EXPECTED. You will be treated with respect and courtesy
if you extend it. The most valuable contributors, who provide
references to what they say, are very seldom flamed -- if you don't
like flames, stick to posting what you know or can validate.
Saying "Because I say so," "Because I was told so" or reading
'PROOF' where someone wrote 'EVIDENCE' will turn you medium-rare.
A: It, seriously, depends on how you look at it. There are times when
a "polite" discourse just doesn'tget the message across. Then, the
board between the eyes to get your attention works. [Dan Ceppa]
.4.1 Q: Will argument from authority get me flamed?
A: Depends on the authority, and if you keep all quotes in context and
content. Claiming that several bright people support your
assertions therefore your assertions are true DOES NOT make it so.
Don't quote an astronomer on issues of biology, and a biologist on
cosmology-- which is standard Creationist tactics-- because you
will get roasted. Saying "Einstein believed in God (he didn't)
therefore you should" will also get you roasted-- bright people CAN
and DO believe silly things; just because someone is well educated
in one field does not make hir an expert in other fields.
.4.2 Q: Will poor spelling get flamed?
A: Often we see theists who mix up "Their, there, and they're," "Too,
to, and two," "atheist" as "athiest," and "your" for "you're." They
then in that very same message proclaim to reveal the secrets of
God, the Universe, Life and all the Really Great Questions humans
have pondered for a dozen millennia-- somehow a crappy speller
telling us they know what no one else does just doesn't seem
likely. If one does not know the difference between "Their" and
"they're" worth a Goat Belch, isn't it rather PRETENTIOUS for one
to be telling us all about how much one knows about god and the
universe?!
3.5 Q: Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so full of
anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke?
A: These phrases are often used as replies to excessively abrasive
arguments by an agnostic or atheist that has demonstrated the
religionist's pet assertions false; the religionist resorts to
eliciting an emotional response instead of addressing the topic at
hand.
A: You may be missing the point. The people who are ridiculed (as it
were) are not those who profess a simple belief in a creator; they
are those who insist their beliefs are correct and we MUST ALL bow
down before GOD before we all roast in Hell. Then there are those
who make ridiculous claims about the veracity of their "Book" and
attempt to use pseudo-science to "prove" they are right. As for
myself, I could care less who a person worships, although I usually
strongly disagree with their intent. As a secular student of
biblical times, I have learned a lot about what Christianity was
really all about (IMHO) and what life was like in first-century
Judah. Personally, I feel those who take the Bible literally and
those who follow Pauline thought should study more, and attempt to
understand what was REALLY going on! By far the biggest problem
though, are those who insist I should pay to support their
religion. Our city supports a separate school system for
Catholics, and the duplication of services and buildings costs
every one of us. There are many examples of religion being pushed
on those who do not wish it. We who do NOT wish to have anything
to do with religion must suffer through innumerable disturbances
from people who insist their religion should be in the forefront.
THOSE are the people who are the targets of ridicule in this echo!
[John Musselwhite]
3.6 Q: What is a `fundi'? (Also, fundy, fundies)
A: FUNDIE (fun'dee) n. and adj. (pl. Fundies), A member of an
American conservative religious movement that believes in biblical
inerrancy. This movement had its roots in the nineteenth-century
orthodox reaction to the higher (historico- literary) criticism of
the Bible that originated among European theologians and was
accepted by American "modernists". Fundamentalism owes its name to
the "Five Fundamentals", a list of five beliefs that the
Presbyterian General Assembly drew up in 1910 as being essential to
the Christian faith. Among those fundamentals was the doctrine
of biblical inerrancy.
Fundies (scientifically: Homo nesciens idiotus) come in two
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ab
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:04:06
EID:85af 20593080
MSGID: 1:250/820 009c61d6
varieties; (about more later) but are united by the belief that
each and every word ("jot and tittle") of the Holy Writ (at least,
their latest authorized version) is unequivocally true. When they
find a text convenient to an argument, it is quotable as the
ultimate truth. But when confronted with an apparent
contradiction, however rational and logical, they sail away upon
the wings of a symbol, an analogy of hidden or recondite
significance.
Although two separate and distinct "kinds" of fundies exist,
(H.n.i. var. ruralensis and H.n.i. var. urbanensis), they can be
typically identified by their ubiquitous possession of a heavily
thumped (but seldom read) Bible; an almost cataleptic and
unquestioned adherence to dated dogma and the extraordinarily
annoying ability of being able to interject their own personal
version of ethics and morality into almost any subject, no matter
how abstruse. As a group, they are exasperatingly uni-dimensional.
H.n.i. var. ruralensis can be typified as a backwoods rustic
living among the 'possums, 'coons, 'dillos and magnolias who is
functionally illiterate. Though some may become transplanted to
more municipal settings; they stubbornly adhere to old habits:
mouth breathing, barefootedness and brainless Bible-based bleating.
A macroevolutionary jump (although most would argue that it is
really a regressive event) is responsible for the other variety:
H.n.i. var. urbanensis. They arose from their humbler cousins in
the deep, dark, dank backwoods but have evolved to exploit the
trophism of bright lights, television cameras, teleprompters and
wireless communication. Basically, a member of this group can be
described as a country bumpkin of the wacko-right turned religious
zealot and usually named Billy, Jimmy, Oral or some other familiar
sobriquet. They drape the mantle of Christian piety around their
shoulders (which they carefully interweave with the American
flag), and stomping off on a witch hunt; ferret out "fellow
travelers", "one-worlders", that archenemy of all right thinking
people: the "secular humanist", and other assorted bogeymen. With
a primitive view of this world and a psychedelic view of the next,
they harangue lost sinners (and those with the ability to think for
themselves) in an impassioned and declamatory style to "REPENT!"
and be born again. Ranting and raving; and spouting smoke, fury,
fire, brimstone and stained glass blather; they pace whatever
stage they can usurp like a whirling dervish with a caffeine
addiction. The venue may change, but the song always remains the
same.
Usually, such narrowly unspecialized organisms as the ones cited
above represent an evolutionary dead-end. In these cases, though,
it is more of a U-turn. [Marty Leipzig]
A: Fundy is short for a combination of two words emerging from the
same Latin root, _fundus_ (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay
the bottom). The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks.
2. the anus. Religious extremists, who do their thinking with
these organs, practice _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious
beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. 2. Among
some American Protestants, the movement based on this belief:
opposed to _modernism_. [Don Martin]
3.7 Q: "Why is everyone picking on me?"
A: Chances are, you deserve it. When someone asserts wild and
baseless claims, and then insists that others believe these claims,
one may expect a little heat. Some assertions that generate heat:
"My book was written by god because it says so, and god wouldn't
lie." "God hates such-and-such." "God loves such-and-such." "I'll
pray for you, you stupid ignorant gibbering idiot pitiful
atheists."
.7.0 Q: "Why is everyone attacking me? I'm only giving you the Good News"
A: Look. You don't see it as being offensive, or pushing, or whatever,
[to preach at us] but then *you* aren't the one being offended, are
you. Think of it in these terms: you are not the one who decides
whether or not someone else wants to hear about your religious views.
Indeed, the other person may have very well-formed and solid
religious views of their own. And your rather rude insistence on
discussing your religion and why that other person should start
*following* your religion is offensive. Understand? Its not the
content of the message which is offensive. Its the assumption that
you, as a Christian, have some sort of universal permission to ram
that message down our throats that makes us mad at you. [Jack Butler]
.7.1 Q: Everyone is calling me a bigot because I stand for Christ! [Oh,
PLEASE drive those nails in harder!]
A: Incorrect. Anyone who discriminates based on prejudice or other
unreasoned foundation is labelled 'bigot'. If blacks were known to
be rampant killers with no sense of the value of life, you would
not be a bigot to be afraid of them, or to point out that they need
to be controlled.
However, blacks are not rampant killers. Indeed, the only
distinguishing feature, as a group compared to whites as a group,
is their skin pigmentation - hardly a worthy basis for fearing or
controlling them.
You see? Someone who discriminates against blacks simply because
they are black is a bigot - the discrimination is entirely
unwarranted.
Many Christians are shown to be bigots by the words and their
actions. They discriminate against gays, against people who have
sex before marriage, against women, against scientists. All of
that discrimination is based on - and please make very careful note
of this - ***nothing*** more than their personal choice to adopt a
belief system of which such discrimination is an inherent part.
You can't point to God. You can't show that he exists. There is
asbolutley nothing in all of observed reality which even hints at
any deity, let alone a specific deity. The only way to adopt the
belief in such a being is *purely* by personal choice. You choose
to adopt a belief of discrimination and hatred.
Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more accurately the
Christian dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rather is a sane
and rational response to a very real threat? [Kelsey Bjarnason]
3.8 Q: What is "Crucifixation?"
A: A state of mental duress, usually inside a fundamentalist Christian
brain, that admires blood, guts, suffering, agony, drinking blood
of God and eating His body, and usually wishes to be crucified and
martyred hirself. This fixation prevents those afflicted with it
to question why Jews would crucify a heretic in the Roman fashion,
when death by stoning was the preferred method of disposing of sons
of Gods.
3.9 Q: What is the "Flood Of Ignorance?"
A: This is a reference to the so-called global flood 'theory'
presented by biblical literalists.
3.10 Q: What is "One Nation Under God?"
A: The state of theocratic opression that fundamentalists desire to
impose on the country in which they reside.
3.11 Q: What is a "Creationist?"
A: One who believes that the earth was created in six days, exactly as
told in the bible. Such people always fail to notice the two
different creation accounts contained in Genisis 1:x and 2:x.
3.12 Q: What's this "IHS!" thing?
A: This can mean a great many things! It was originally coined by a
HolySmoke Regular to mean "In His Service!" though it is not clear
just who "His" may be. Usual variations may mean "I'm Happy
Stupid!" SHIt backwards, "I'm Helping Satan!" "In Hitler's
Service!" "I Hate Science!" "Idiot Has Spoken!" "I heat sausage!"
"I Hate Spam!" and others far too numerous to mention. The most
common usage in HOLYSMOKE means "BULLtIHS!" The original meaning is
"In Hoc Signum Vincit," referring to the Christian crucifix as "By
this sign we conquer." [OBSOLETE]
3.13 Q: What is a "Not Real True Christian?"
A: When atrocities are performed by Christians in the name of God,
their partners in religion say they were not Real True Christians.
Some famous Not Real True Christians include Jim Bakker, Jimmy
Swaggart, Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler, Jerry Falwell, All Catholics,
Jeffrey Dahlmer, Mike Warnke, John "Todd" Collins, Mormons, God
Jehovah, John Salvi, Paul Hill, Senator Exon, Timothy Mcvay, David
Koresh and the IRA.
A: Any Christian who belongs to a 'false christian' sect. For
example, Catholics are false christians to Protestants.
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ac
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:06:06
EID:456e 205930c0
MSGID: 1:250/820 009c90d8
.13.1Q: Now hold on here. You can't responsibly group those obviously
psychotic fringe groups that claim to be of God with the true
Christians among us.
A: Why not group "those obviously psychotic fringe groups" with the
rest of the *cough, cough* "True Christians"? You "True
Christians" do exactly the same thing you decry above, against
groups with which you disagree -- i.e., you characterize all gays
and lesbians from the actions of extremist ACT UP affinity groups;
you characterize all pro-choice people from the activities of a few
doctors who perform late-term abortions [in emergencies]; you
characterize all Liberals from the views of a few who are
doctrinaire Leftists. You and your kind demonize your opponents
from the actions of a few of the most extreme of their kind, yet
expect to be exempt from similar stigmatization? [Paul Boyer]
.13.2Q: What is a "Real True Christian?"
A: The Christian that you happen to be talking to at this minute.
.13.3Q: What is a cult?
A: Anyone who doesn't belong to the same religous group that you do.
A: A religon without political power.
3.14 Q: What does "IS NOT!" mean?
A: This is the common reference to Christian foot-stomping arguments.
(I.E. It's so because I say it is!)
3.15 Q: What is the "Theory of Creation Science?"
A: The exact account of Genisis in the New Testiment. However,
biblical passages do not meet the requirements for a scientific
theory. See 3.x for more information on scientific theories.
A: "IS NOT!" Creationists refuse to provide a theory of Creationism,
because they do not have one. Therefore it is damn hard to teach
it in public school, yet they still demand that it should.
3.16 Q: What are Star Goat and Dopefish?
A: These made-up gods are used as a defense against 'prove God doesn't
exist' argments made by theists.
3.17 Q: "Pink, invisible, flying hippo?" Excuse me?
A: Her name is Daisy, and she leaves invisible, smell-free turds on
the keyboards of every fundy that posts in HOLYSMOKE. Now prove
she doesn't! When someone brings up the non-measurability of their
favorite god (Jesus, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah), others bring up Daisy
and point out that the evidence she exists is identical to the
evidence their god(s) exist. See 3.16
3.18 Q: What's an Athiest? (note spelling and case)
A: Christians use this word to represent people without morals;
heathens without ethics; lawyers; baby-eaters; perverts; gays;
Democrats.
.18.1Q: What's an atheist?
A: From Usenet's alt.atheist FAQ:
Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence
of God. Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not
exist. The former is often referred to as the "weak atheist"
position, and the latter as "strong atheism".
It is important to note the difference between these two positions.
"Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of
God. "Strong atheism" is a positive belief that God does not
exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all
atheists are "strong atheists".
Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others
limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God,
rather than making flat-out denials.
"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he
doesn't exist?"
Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not
believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not
equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no
idea whether it is true or not.
.18.2Q: What is an "Agnostic?"
A: One who doesn't know, or give a shit, if God exist or not.
3.19 Q: What is HOLY_BIBLE?
A: This echo is run by Steve Winter (no S), who has professed it to be
THE ONLY =REAL= Christian echo on Fidonet, disregarding the dozen
or so other Christian echoes, which aren't really, but just clever
simulations by Satan into fooling people into believing that the
echoes are Christian.
3.20 Q: What is a Sheneism?
A: We often get Christians on the echo who claim they will shortly, in
a few days, provide proof of their god's existence, or proof of a
global flood, or proof that Earth is flat, or proof that evolution
didn't and isn't occurring-- just to vanish at the appointed time,
later showing up claiming a "hard disk crash" ate their proof (I
hate it when that happens!). The first time someone made this
claim, he blamed it on Satan. The next person this happened to
blamed it on his god, Jesus-- so they got us coming and going, eh?
3.21 Q: Why is evolution constantly a topic in HOLYSMOKE?
A: Creationists refuse to go to the EVOLUTION echo, because there are
several more well-informed scientists there than in HOLYSMOKE. As
yet, no Creationist has failed to be properly corrected of their
errors in HOLYSMOKE. There are several highly knowledgeable people
in HOLYSMOKE who can and do refute Creationists claims.
EVOLUTION is also less-widly carried in the bible-belt than
HOLYSMOKE is.
3.22 Q: Are there any Satanists here?
A: No. The best estimate of the number of Satanists in the USA is
from 4,000 to 5,000 individuals ("Satan Wants You," by Arthur
Lyons), so the odds of one showing up is rather slim.
3.23 Q: Why don't you pick on Satanists like you pick on Christians and
Muslims?
A: For a couple of reasons. First off, we only "pick on" someone who
makes irrational and absurd claims while expecting us to believe
them--we've yet to have a Satanist come along and do so. Second,
and more importantly, it is Christians who are subverting our
secular nation through political means, not Satanists (how many
Satanists sue the State so they may lead students in prayer?).
3.24 Q: Why do you hate God / Jesus?
A: Have you stopped beating your spouse? Do not make the mistake of
believing that attacks on stupidity is equal to an attack on a god
just because the person making the silly claim asserts he's
speaking for his god. In the three years I've read HOLYSMOKE I
have yet to see a single person hate God or Jesus-- just those who
claim to be these gods followers. Many Christians commit crimes in
the name of their gods-- we don't blame their gods: we blame the
criminals.
3.25 Q: What's this GOD$LOVE.GIF?
A: A child preparing to feed a bird. If you have an Internet address,
ask Martin Goldberg to send you a copy.
3.26 Q: NOODLES???
A: I know another preacher who, along with his church, prayed that the
LORD would help a pot of noodles last through a social dinner, not
only did they last, not only did several take home a container full
of noodles, but the containers always stayed full. Finally, they
had to throw them out, after thanking the LORD of course. I have
seen and heard of peoples lives changed dramatically for the
better, in ways that could only be called a miracle. The LORD
russles the leaves if you are willing listen." [Jerry Randall]
3.27 Q: What are the requirements for a someting to be a theory? Is
Creationism a theory?
A: I realize that you appear to have almost no scientific education at
all but I am posting this and the next message in the hope that you
may gain an understanding of what a scientific theory is. All of
these are used in an attempt to explain a fact. The theory of
evolution is used, according to these criteria, to describe the
fact of evolution. The theory of gravity uses these criteria to
describe the fact of gravity. When Einstein proposed a new theory
to explain gravity apples did not hang in mid-air while waiting to
see who was right, Einstein or Newton. The improvement or
alteration of the theory did not have any effect on the fact of
gravity. So it is with the fact of evolution. Please read on and
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ad
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:08:06
EID:872f 20593100
MSGID: 1:250/820 009cbfe4
discover what a theory is...
A survey of the literature on the history, philosophy and sociology
of science reveals that there are at least four fundamental
categories of criteria by which theories are judged:
(1) logical criteria
(2) empirical criteria
(3) sociological criteria
(4) historical criteria.
There are four primary logical criteria for a theory. It must be:
(1.a) a simple, unifying idea that postulates nothing
unnecessary ("Occam's Razor" [see section 4 -ch])
(1.b) logically consistent internally
(1.c) logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must exist in which
the theory could be imagined to be invalid)
(1.d) clearly limited by explicit stated boundary conditions
so that it is clear whether or not any particular data
are or are not relevant to the verification or
falsification of the theory.
The need for these four criteria should be obvious upon reflection.
An idea that is too complex or deals with observations piecemeal
can have no practical explanatory value for a scientist. Theories
must make clear patterns of things and relationships between
things. These patterns and relationships must be internally logical
and consistent since these are required attributes of all sound
explanations. The explanation must be falsifiable, at least
logically if not by actual experiment, or else tautologies or other
logically sterile constructions might be admissible as theories.
Finally, a theory must be limited by boundary conditions or else
there will be criteria for determining whether or not any
particular observation or experiments should or should not be
explainable by the theory. In fact, if a theory is totally
unbounded, then it is not possible to imagine any observation that
is irrelevant to verifying the theory. Thus, an unbounded theory
would not be falsifiable. And, if a theory cannot be falsified, it
cannot be self-corrected. Yet self-correctability is precisely the
characteristic that gives scientific theories their epistemological
power: a theory that is incorrect or incomplete can, by attempts
to falsify it, reveal its faults or limitations and so be corrected
or extended.
Three empirical criteria are of primary importance as well. A
theory must:
(2.a) be empirically testable itself or lead to predictions
or retrodictions that are testable
(2.b) actually make verified predictions and/or retrodictions
(2.c) concern reproducible results
(2.d) provide criteria for the interpretation of data as
facts, artifacts, anomalies, or as irrelevant.
The basic point is that not all data are valid for testing any
particular theory. Some data may be interpreted as factual (that
is, they fall within the boundary conditions specified by the
theory and verify its predictions or retrodictions); some may be
artifactual (that is, the result of secondary or accidental
influences lying outside the boundaries set for the validity of the
theory); some are anomalous (that is, demonstrably valid within the
bounds of the theory, but also at odds with predictions or
retrodictions made by the theory); some are irreproducible and so,
invalid; and some are irrelevant since they address the theory not
at all.
Once again, the necessity of these criteria should be relatively
self-evident. It is possible to imagine theories that are logically
falsifiable but experimentally untestable (as when the technology
does not exist to convert the logical test into an empirical test).
Such a theory cannot be either verified or falsified and so is
useless in practice to an experimental scientist. One can, at best,
only leave such empirically untestable ideas in the scientific
purgatory of doubt. A theory must also limit what may possibly be
observed in the universe. Otherwise, one would not know what to
look for, where, how to look for it, under what conditions, or know
whether what one saw was relevant or irrelevant to the theory. If
everything is possible under an explanation, then no tests for it
can exist.
A theory must also make verified predictions and retrodictions to
validate itself. It is possible otherwise to imagine theories that
make predictions and retrodictions all of which are falsified. A
theory whose predictions and retrodictions are falsified, either by
the prior existence of relevant data or the subsequent discovery of
relevant data, cannot be considered a valid theory. It is in need
of correction or extension. And, of course, a theory based upon
irreproducible results is, in effect, invalidated by the very fact
that the results cannot be reproduced - for either the boundary
conditions governing the collection of the data have not been
properly set, or the original data may have been due simply to
coincidence rather than any mechanism proposed by the theory.
Sociological criteria also exist for determining the validity of a
theory. A theory must:
(3.a) resolve recognized problems, paradoxes, and/or
anomalies irresolvable on the basis of preexisting
scientific theories
(3.b) pose a new set of scientific problems upon which
scientists may work
(3.c) posit a "paradigm" or problem-solving model by which
these new problems may be expected to be resolved
(3.d) provide definitions of concepts or operations
beneficial to the problem-solving abilities of other
scientists.
Once again, the need for these criteria is manifest. An idea that
does not resolve any recognized scientific problems cannot be
called a scientific theory. It can have no effect upon the research
activity of scientists. Similarly, an explanation that does not
pose new problems does not allow scientists to learn anything they
were unable to learn before. A theory therefore has no
sociological value unless it provides a model for new or more
efficient sorts of scientific activity. Thus, a theory must be
stated in terms that are operationally useful to the community of
scientists who might use the theory. If the definitions or
concepts upon which the theory is based are not operationally
useful, then the explanation says nothing experimentally verifiable
about nature. Such an explanation cannot, therefore, be scientific.
Finally, there is a fourth set of theory criteria as well:
historical ones. A theory must:
(4.a) meet or surpass all of the criteria set by its
predecessors or demonstrate that any abandoned criteria
are artifactual
(4.b) be able to accrue the epistemological status acquired
by previous theories through their history of testing
or, put another way, be able to explain all of the data
gathered under previous relevant theories in terms
either of fact or artifact (no anomalies allowed)
(4.c) be consistent with all preexisting ancillary theories
that already have established scientific validity.
These criteria are necessary to ensure that theories are
correctable. Correctability, in turn, ensures the increase in
explanatory power of scientific theories with time, and promotes
the consistency and integration of all scientific explanations,
without such criteria, scientists would be free to pick and choose
data that favor their explanations while ignoring previously
recorded evidence and theories that falsify their own ideas. The
historical criteria make such unscientific procedures nearly
impossible. The historical records of each science stand as a
monument to the series of tests any new theory must pass to prove
its mettle against the accumulated knowledge of nature. The longer
a science has existed, the greater the accumulated knowledge
concerning any particular aspect of nature. Consequently, the more
difficult it becomes to reformulate all of that knowledge into a
new and consistent framework. [Robert Root-Bernstein]
In short ...[-ch] if you have a better theory of how the diversity
of species came to be as they are on this planet you must fit it
into the above (and preceding) framework. While your theory is
being tested and evaluated the diversity of species will remain as
they now are. The facts that are manifest under the banner of
evolution will not go away while your theory is being developed. If
you can come up with a theory to explain the fact of evolution that
fits these criteria I will accept it... but _only_ if you can do so
and not before. [Simon Ewins]
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ae
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:10:06
EID:47ee 20593140
MSGID: 1:250/820 009ceef0
3.28 Q: Is there a biological basis for fundamentalism? I mean, people
can't be this stupid without extra help.
A: You (and others here) may find interesting the article by Rebecca
Lee, "The Jerusalem Syndrome" in The Atlantic Monthly (May 1995, pp
24-38). There are LOTS of Messiahs around, and protestants are
particularly susceptible. All it takes for many is to visit
Jerusalem and experience a religious overload. The authorities find
ice middle-class Americans wandering the surrounding hillsides,
dressed in bedsheets. David Koresh was one such who recognized his
own divinity in 1983 and did not get treatment for it.
The treatment is a drug Haloperidol, "a dopamine antagonist; some
psychiatrists hypothesize that too much dopamine can cause the mind
to be overactive and project to excess, to translate what _is_ into
what _might be_--an action of faith. An overabundance of dopamine,
then may blur the differences on perceives between oneself and God.
Haloperidol blocks some of the dopamine receptors, closes the
gates, prevents interplay in the mind between what is seen and what
is unseen, discourages the leap of faith. Physicians keep the
dosage very low, however, fearing that too much of the drug might
wipe out the religious imagination entirely." (p 38, col a)
Perhaps we atheists are simply hypodopaminic to the hyper-of the
fundies. Better things for better living through chemistry . . . .
[Now all you need to do is slip a large amount of Haloperidol into
Washington D.C's water supply and you'll have no more fundies in
office...]
3.29 Q: What is the Necronomicon?
A: [...] The Necronomicon began life as an interesting and eldritch
bit of frippery that H. P. Lovecraft invented to liven up some of
his stories and add the element of Things Which Man Was Not Meant
To Know to them. Abdul Alhazred is likewise a fiction.
The only book bearing the name that I have seen in print was
written in the late '70s and is a mish-mash of pseudo-Sumerian
babble. It is not the "real" Necronomicon, if there ever could be
such a thing. It is merely a stupidly written and very funny bit of
junk whose main claim to fame is the use of the title.
Most people with any sense whatsoever realize that the Necronomicon
is indeed a fraud and anyone purporting to have anything like a
real copy of it is off his gyros. [Preston Simpson]
3.30 Q: How old is the earth? How do we know?
A: The most direct means for calculating the earth's age is a Pb/Pb
isochron age, derived from samples of the earth and meteorites.
This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206,
Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of
Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-208/Pb-204.
If the solar system formed form a common pool of matter, which was
uniformly distributed in terms of Pb isotope ratios, then the
initial plots for all objects from that pool of matter would fall
on a single point. However, amounts of Pb-206 and Pb-207 will
change in some samples, as these isotopes are decay end-products of
U (U-238 decays to Pb-206, and U-235 decays to Pb-207).
If the source of the solar system was also uniformly distributed
with respect to U isotope ratios, then this change will cause the
data points to move away from each other, but they will always fall
on a single line. And from the slope of the line we can derive the
amount of time which has passed since the pool of matter became
separated into individual objects.
A creationist would object to all of the "assumptions" listed
above. However, the test for these assumptions is the plot of the
data itself. The actual underlying assumption is that, if those
requirements have not been met, there is no reason for the data to
plot on a line.
The resulting plot for five meteorites that contained uranium, a
single data point for all meteorites that do not, and one for
modern ocean sediments. It looks like this:
Y-axis: ratio of Pb[207]/Pb[204]
X-axis: ratio of Pb[206]/Pb[204].
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³ 7 ³
³ ³
30 Ã ´
³ ³
³ 6 ³
³ ³
³ ³
20 Ã ´
³ ³
³ 4 5 ³
³ 3 ³
³ 2 ³
10 Ã 1 ´
³ ³
³ ³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÙ
10 20 30 40 50
Data points: (1) Iron Meteorites; (2) Beardsley; (3) Modern
sediments and young galenas; (4) Saratov; (5) Elenovka; (6)
Richardton; (7) Nuevo Laredo. I can't really do it justice in
ASCII, I recommend interested parties to get the original.
(Dalrymple, 1986, Figure 12)
The slope of the line in the above chart gives an age of 4.55 ñ
0.07 billion years.
Most of the other measurements for the age of the earth rest upon
calculating an age for the solar system by dating objects which are
less geologically active (such as meteorites). Below is a table of
radiometric ages derived from groups of meteorites:
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
Number
Type Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr)
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
Chondrites 13 Sm-Nd 4.21 +/- 0.76
Carbonaceous chondrites 4 Rb-Sr 4.37 +/- 0.34
Chondrites (undist. H) 38 Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.02
Chondrites (all) 50 Rb-Sr 4.43 +/- 0.04
H Chondrites (undist.) 17 Rb-Sr 4.52 +/- 0.04
H Chondrites 15 Rb-Sr 4.59 +/- 0.06
L Chondrites (rel. und.) 6 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.12
L Chondrites 5 Rb-Sr 4.38 +/- 0.12
LL Chondrites (undist.) 13 Rb-Sr 4.49 +/- 0.02
LL Chondrites 10 Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.06
E Chondrites (undist.) 8 Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.04
E Chondrites 8 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.13
Eucrites (polymict) 23 Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.19
Eucrites 11 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.30
Eucrites 13 Lu-Hf 4.57 +/- 0.19
Diogenites 5 Rb-Sr 4.45 +/- 0.18
Iron (+ St. Severin) 8 Re-Os 4.57 +/- 0.21
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 291; duplicate studies on identical
meteorite types omitted.)
As shown in the table, there is excellent agreement on about 4.5
billion years, between hundreds of different meteorites and by
several different dating methods.
Further, studies on individual meteorites generally give concordant
ages by multiple radiometric means. For example:
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
Meteorite Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr)
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
Guarena w-rock Ar-Ar 4.44 +/- 0.06
13 sam Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.08
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Olivenza 18 sam Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.16
w-rock Ar-Ar 4.49 +/- 0.06
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Saint Severin 4 sam Sm-Nd 4.55 +/- 0.33
10 sam Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.15
w-rock Ar-Ar 4.43 +/- 0.04
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Juvinas 5 sam Sm-Nd 4.56 +/- 0.08
5 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.07
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 250/820 501 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.af
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:12:08
EID:46ae 20593180
MSGID: 1:250/820 009d1def
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Y-75011 9 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.05
7 sam Sm-Nd 4.52 +/- 0.16
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
(After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 286; meteorites dated by only a single
means omitted, duplicated methods omitted.)
Also note that the meteorite ages (both when dated mainly by Rb-Sr
dating in groups, and by multiple means individually) are in exact
agreement with the solar system "model lead age" produced earlier.
[Chris Stassen]
3.31 Q: What is evolution?
A: "Evolution", to biologists, refers to that change in gene
frequencies of populations over the generations in time that
produces new species. Darwin called it "descent with modification":
a painfully slow process, usually operating over hundreds of
thousands, if not millions, of years and generations. Geological
and paleontological additions to this definition are noted in the
fact that over the span of geological time, organisms have
progressed from the simple to the more complex.
There are four commonly confused meanings of evolution, which
should be kept quite separate and distinct: (1.) the general
process of populational and specific (i.e., giving rise to new
species) change, which is considered a well established scientific
fact, (2.) inevitable "progress" from lower to higher life forms
[though now largely discredited], (3.) the particular history of
the "Tree of Life" and the origins of various groups, or
phylogenies, which are interpreted from the fossil record and
biochemical studies; and (4.) the mechanism of evolution, which
Darwin and Wallace proposed as "natural selection", but is
currently being investigated and modified by scientific research.
Punctuated equilibria is an example of the latter.
Here following are some of the major arguments and objections that
Creationists never tire of bringing up - and some answers from the
perspective of mainstream science:
1. FACT, OR THEORY?
Evolution became established as fact because it unified
thousands of disparate observations by comparative
anatomists, botanists, field naturalists, geologists,
paleontologists, geneticists and biochemists. Without the
unifying concept of a changing world in process over eons of
time, modern science could not and would not exist. That
species are related through common ancestry is supported by
scores of interlocking research fields, each which supports
the rest. Evolution is as well established fact as
gravitation. As noted by S.J. Gould, apples are not going to
stop falling in midair while scientists debate whether
Newton's law of gravitation has been superseded by
Einstein's theories. And species keep on changing over time,
while we continue to search for the why and how of evolution.
If one insists that evolution is but one interpretation of
nature, what is the alternative? That the thousands of
dinosaurs and species that preceded them and postdated them
were _not_ related to each other, appeared full blown and had
no common connections? Such a model, call it "religious" or
call it "creation science", cannot lead to fruitful inquiry.
It is rather an answer that stops all further questions.
2. "GENERAL" EVOLUTION VS. SPECIATION:
While some critics concede that new species (_Drosophilia
sp._, for example) have been produced in the lab, they claim
general evolution has never been experimentally demonstrated.
By this, they mean breeding a succession of progressively
"higher" or more complex species. But, there is no such
theory of general evolution (i.e., a strawman), the old
Victorian notions of "inevitable progress" as opposed to the
simple to more complex progress noted in the fossil record,
biologically are outmoded and well discarded.
3. TRANSITIONAL FORMS:
The time worn and oft-repeated claim that there are no
transitional forms is demonstrably false. The Great Karroo
region of South Africa is a vast graveyard of mammal-like
reptiles, a whole array of species whose anatomy was
intermediate between reptiles and mammals. There is the
famous _Archeopteryx_, with its feathers, teeth, claws and
dinosauroid skeleton, a clear transition between reptiles and
birds. And the African homonid fossils represent creatures
with human-like dental patterns, small brains, arms longer
than humans but shorter than modern apes, with pelves, feet
and legs for upright walking. Transitional fossils are
fairly rare because, going by current theory, most species
remain stable for long periods. When change does occur, it
happens in a relatively rapid (in geological terms) timespan
and oftimes occurred in small, isolated populations. The
fossil record has been compared to freezing a multileveled
parking garage in time. Most cars would be found on the
various floors, with very few on the ramps. The amount of
time each car spends on the ramp is short when compared to
the length of time it remains parked, yet each must have
traveled the ramp. Another evidence of transition is found
in biogeographic distribution of living species. On Pacific
island chains, biologists have tracked populational species
across thousands of miles, discovering intermediate forms
from one end of the island chain to the other. Among living
species, there is a series of intermediate species between
lizards and snakes, sharks and skates, and thrushes and
wrens.
4. EVIDENCE AND "PROOF":
There is a very common misconception the Darwin thought he
had "proved" by logic that species evolved. He was, in fact,
a much subtler thinker and philosopher of science. "The
change of species cannot be directly proved, and...the
doctrine must sink or swim according as it groups and
explains [disparate] phenomena. It is unequivocally curious
how few people judge it this way, which is the correct way.
5. "HOLES" AND QUESTIONS:
That there are "holes" and unanswered questions in
evolutionary theory (just as there are in quantum theory) is
incontrovertible, which is normal for healthy science. As
noted by Huxley: "If lost in a dark forest, would you reject
a dim, flickering lantern on the grounds the light it gave
was imperfect?" "I think not", mused Huxley, "I think not."
6. TAUTOLOGY OF "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST":
This hoary old chestnut that evolutionary theory is built on
the tautological pretense that "the survivors survive" was
laid to rest long ago. Critics argue that "only the fittest
survive" is an untestable proposition without a uniform
definition of fitness and, therefore, meaningless as an
explanation.
But whatever the state of those archaic "catch-phrases", such
as "survival of the fittest" and "man came from monkeys", the
heart of Darwin's theory remains sound: overproduction of
offspring in nature, genetic variability and a sorting
process, which results in both long-term stability and
episodic divergence of populations. Increasingly, new
research is focusing on gaining a deeper understanding of
these mechanisms of genetic variation and differential
sorting as they occur on various levels within populations of
the same organism.
7. "JUST HISTORY, NOT SCIENCE":
Some assume that research and inquiry into biology and
zoology must lead to the formulation of fixed laws like those
of chemistry or physics. Dissecting the anatomical structures
of extinct creatures, working out their distribution in
evolutionary hyperspace and reconstructing the Earth's past
indeed meets and exceeds all the criteria of science; as
evidenced by paleontology, geology and biostratigraphy.
The kind of scientific illiteracy that rejects evolution as a
"humanist religious belief" can result in serious errors in
understanding and even the loss of human life. For example, Dr.
L.L. Bailey of the infamous Loma Linda University (Seventh-Day
Adventist) "school" of medicine tried to save the life "Baby Fae",
an infant born with a severely malformed heart. He surgically
implanted a baboon's heart, but the organ was quickly rejected and
the child died.
He was asked, after the debacle, why he didn't instead use a
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 250/820 501 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ag
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:14:08
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MSGID: 1:250/820 009d4cfb
chimpanzee's heart instead, which would have offered a much better
chance of success because of the chimp's closer evolutionary
proximity and genetic fit. Dr. Bailey replied that he "didn't
believe in evolution," and in any case, "couldn't see what it had
to do with the practice of medicine."
Add this to the willful distortions, out-of-context quoting, and
bald-faced lies of those who populate El Cajon's oxymoronically
monikered "Institute of Creation Research"; who spend their time at
their self-described "God directed ministry" trying to inculcate
their own particularly skewed, and narrowly sectarian, version of
Biblically mandated (or so they say) morality, into the science
curricula of public schools across the nation; and we can see how
the unfortunate bastard child of hard-shell religion and fanatical
pseudoscience is indeed homeless.
Mainstream science has no place for "Creation Science", other than
a prime example of a once popular belief that has been shown to be
an intriguing mistake. With its anti-scientific documents, specious
reasonings, supernormal occurrences and non-mechanistic processes,
it belongs in that dustbin of outdated and useless speculations
like it brethren "Flat-Earthism" and Geocentrism.
Mainstream religion also has no room at the inn for the
hyperliteral interpretation, and concomitant internal
contradictions and paradoxes, of scripture that the ICR crowd try
to pawn off as "religiously-ordained".
Certainly, "Creation Science" is nothing more that an authoritarian
philosophy, a sham and a manifestation of supernaturalism trying,
in vain, to somewhere find a home.
It is not at all surprising that virtually everyone is hanging out
"No Vacancy" signs whenever they ooze into town. [Marty Leipzig]
Í4: Debate TermsÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
4.1 ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM
Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because
it has
not been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something
must
be false because it has not been proved true. (Note that this is not the
same
as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true, a basic
scientific principle.)
Examples:
"Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise."
"Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist. Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real."
Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is generally
assumed innocent until proven guilty.
Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce
certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can
validly be used to infer that the event did not occur. For example:
"A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water
to
be present on the earth. The earth does not have a tenth as much water,
even
if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles. Therefore no such
flood occurred."
4.2 ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM
This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists
of
asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the
more
likely it is that that proposition is correct.
Examples:
"The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is. Are you trying
to
tell them that they are all mistaken fools?"
"Eat shit. Ten million flys can't be wrong."
4.3 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF
The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition.
Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium,
is
the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or
questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the
assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.
Short form: Don't attempt to prove a negatives. Unless you're an idiot.
4.4 ACCENTUS
Description: A Fallacy of Ambiguity, where the ambiguity arises from the
emphasis (accent) placed on a word or phrase.
4.5 AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT
Description: An argument from the truth of a hypothetical statement, and
the
truth of the consequent to the truth of the antecedent. In the syllogism
below,
P is the antecedent and Q is the consequent:
P implies Q
Q is true <-- Affirming the consequent
______________
Therefore: P is true
Example: The Bible implies god, therefore, god is true.
4.6 AMBIGUITY
Description: An argument in the course of which at least one term is used
in
different senses. Also known as equivocation. There are several types of
"fallacies of ambiguity," including REIFICATION, EQUIVOCATION, AMPHIBOLY
[4.7],
COMPOSITION, DIVISION, and ACCENTUS [4.4].
4.7 AMPHIBOLY
Description: A type of Fallacy of Ambiguity where the ambiguity involved
is of
an "amphibolous" (equivocal, uncertain) nature. Amphiboly is a syntactic
error. The fallacy is caused by faulty sentence structure, and can result
in a
meaning not intended by the author. "The department store now has pants
for men
with 32 waists." (How many waists do you have? I have only one!)
4.8 ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM
Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply
because it is old; that is, because "that's the way it's always been."
Example: The Bible is 2000 years old! It must be true!
4.9 ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM
Description: An argument that resorts to the threat of force to cause the
acceptance of the conclusion. Ad baculum arguments also include threats
of fear
to cause acceptance.
Example: You'll go to hell if you don't follow my loving god.
4.10 ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM
Description: Fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness;
that those with more money are more likely to be right.
4.11 ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM (AKA FLAME)
Description: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what is
asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's argument. Another
way of putting it: Fallacy where you attack someone's character instead
of
dealing with salient issues. There are two basic types of ad hominem arguments:
(1) abusive, and (2) circumstantial.
4.12 ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM
Description: A fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she
is
sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier. This fallacy is the
opposite of the informal fallacy "argumentum ad crumenam."
4.13 ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM
Description: An argument that appeals to pity for the sake of getting a
conclusion accepted.
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 250/820 501 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:16:08
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MSGID: 1:250/820 009d7bfd
4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM
Description: The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be
true
the more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs
constant repitition in asserting a truth.
Short form: an argument that is repeated so many times that you suffer nausea.
4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is more correct simply
because it is new or newer than something else. Or that something is better
because it is newer. This type of fallacy is the opposite of the "argumentum
ad antiquitam" fallacy.
4.16 ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM
Description: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the multitude (i.e.,
the "populace"). Another way of putting it: Speaker deals with passions
of
audience rather than with salient issues. This fallacy is also known as
"Appeal
to Tradition" Ad populum arguments often occur in (1) propaganda, (2)
demagoguery, and (3) advertising.
4.17 ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM
Description: An argument in which an authority is appealed to on matters
outside his/her field of authority. "Ad verecundiam" also refers to a
fallacy
of simply resorting to appeals to authority.
4.18 BEGGING THE QUESTION (CIRCULAR REASONING)
Description: An argument that assumes as part of its premises the very
conclusion that is supposed to be true. Another way of saying this is:
Fallacy of assuming at the onset of an argument the very point you are trying
to prove. The fallacy is also sometimes referred to as "Circulus in Probando."
This Fallacy is also known by the Latin "PETITIO PRINCIPII".
Example:
The Bible is true because god said it was. I know god is real becase the
Bible
said so.
4.19 BIFURCATION
Description: Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation
is
the presentation of a situation or condition with only two alternatives,
whereas in fact other alternatives exist or can exist.
4.20 COMPOSITION
Description: An argument in which one assumes that a whole has a property
solely because its various parts have that property. Composition is a type
of
Fallacy of Ambiguity.
4.21 CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL
Description: If P then Q, therefore, if Q then P.
Example:
Hitler used evolution, therefore, everyone who follows evolution supports
Hitler.
4.22 CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC
Description: A fallacy of correlation that links events because they occur
simultaneously; one asserts that because two events occur together they
are
causally related, and leaves no room for other factors that may be the cause(s)
of the events. This fallacy is similar to the "post hoc" fallacy.
4.23 DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT
Description: An argument in which one infers the falsity of the consequent
from
the truth of a hypothetical proposition, and the falsity of its antecedent.
P implies Q
Not-P
____________
Therefore: Not-Q
4.24 DIVISION
Description: An argument in which one assumes that various parts have a
property solely because the whole has that same property. Division is a
type
of Fallacy of Ambiguity.
4.25 EQUIVOCATION
Description: An argument in which an equivocal expression is used in one
sense
in one premise and in a different sense in another premise, or in the
conclusion. Equivocal means (1) of uncertain significance; not determined,
and
(2) having different meanings equally possible. Equivocation is a type
of
Fallacy of Ambiguity. The opposite of equivocation is "unovocation," in
which a
word always carries the same meaning through a given context.
4.26 FALLACY OF INTERROGATION
Description: The question asked has a presuppostion which the answerer may
wish
to deny, but which he/she would be accepting if he/she gave anything that
would count as an answer. Any answer to the question "Why does such-and-such
happen?" presupposes that such-and-such does indeed happen.
4.28 FALSE ANALOGY
Description: An analogy is a partial similarity between the like features
of
two things or events on which a comparison can be made. A false analogy
involves comparing two things that are NOT similar. Note that the two things
may be similar in superficial ways, but not with respect to what is being
argued.
4.29 SECUNDUM QUID (HASTY GENERALIZATION)
Description: An argument in which a proposition is used as a premise without
attention given to some obvious condition that would affect the proposition's
application. This fallacy is also known as the "hasty generalization."
It is
a fallacy that takes evidence from several, possibly unrepresentative, cases
to
a general rule; generalizing from few to many. Note the relation to
statistics: Much of statistics concerns whether or not a sample is
representative of a larger population. The larger the sample size, the better
the representativeness. Note also that the opposite of a hasty generalization
is a sweeping generalization.
4.30 IGNORATIO ELENCHI
Description: An argument that is supposed to prove one proposition but succeeds
only in proving a different one. Ignoratio elenchi stands for "pure and
simple
irrelevance."
4.31 ILLICIT PROCESS
Description: A syllogistic argument in which a term is distributed in the
conclusion, but not in the premises. One of the rules for a valid categorical
syllogism is that if either term is distributed in the conclusion, then
it must
be distributed in the premises. There are two types of Illicit Process:
Illicit Process of the Major Term and Illicit Process of the Minor Term.
4.32 PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM (MANY QUESTIONS)
Description: A demand for a simple answer to a complex question.
Example:
US schools are going down the drain because the school day is no longer
started
with a prayer.
4.33 NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA
Description: An argument to reject a proposition because of the falsity
of some
other proposition that seems to be a consequence of the first, but really
is
not.
4.34 NON-SEQUITUR
Description: An argument in which the conclusion is not a necessary consequence
of the premises. Another way of putting this is: A conclusion drawn from
premises that provide no logical connection to it.
4.35 PETITIO PRINCIPII
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ai
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:18:08
EID:42ee 20593240
MSGID: 1:250/820 009dab06
Description: Same as "Begging the Question" The argument assumes its
conclusion is true but DOES NOT SHOW it to be true. Petitio principii has
two
forms:
1. P is true, because P is true.
2. P is true, because A is true. And A is true because B is true. And
B is
true because P is true.
Similar to circular reasoning.
4.36 POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC
Description: An argument from a premise of the form "A preceded B" to a
conclusion of the form "A caused B." Simply because one event precedes
another
event in time does not mean that the first event is the cause of the second
event. This argument resembles a fallacy known as a Hasty Generalization.
4.37 QUATERNIO TERMINORUM
Description: An argument of the syllogistic form in which there occur four
or
more terms. In a standard categorical syllogism there are only three terms:
a
subject, a predicate, and a middle term.
4.38 RED HERRING
Description: A fallacy when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue
being discussed, such that everyone's attention is diverted away from the
points being made, and toward a different conclusion. It is not logically
valid to divert a chain of reasoning with extraneous points.
4.39 REIFICATION
Description: To reify something is to convert an abstract concept into a
concrete thing. Reification is a Fallacy of Ambiguity. Reification is also
sometimes known as a fallacy of "hypostatization".
4.40 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF (AKA Fundi shuffle)
Description: The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion
or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of "argumentum
ad
ignorantium," is a fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person
who
denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy
is the
assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.
4.41 SPECIAL PLEADING (DOUBLE STANDARD)
Description: Special pleading is a logical fallacy wherein a double standard
is
employed by the person making the assertion. Special pleading typically
happens when one insists upon less strict treatment for the argument he/she
is
making than he or she would make when evaluating someone else's arguments.
4.42 STRAW MAN
Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's position for
the
purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down that misrepresented
position, and then to conclude that the original position has been demolished.
It is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that
one has
made.
Example: Evolution says humans evolved from monkeys.
4.43 SWEEPING GENERALIZATION
Description: Also known by the Latin term "DICTO SIMPLICITER", a Sweeping
Generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation
in which the features of that particular situation render the rule
inapplicable. A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty
generalization.
4.44 TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT (TU QUOQUE)
Description: Two wrongs never add up to a right; you cannot right a wrong
by
applying yet another wrong. Such a fallacy is a misplaced appeal to
consistency. It is a fallacy because it makes no attempt to deal with the
subject under discussion.
4.45 UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE
Description: A syllogistic argument in which the middle term of a categorical
syllogism is not distributed in at least one of the premises.
4.46 ARGUMENTUM AD BOZM NON-CHRISTI
Description: This is the falacy that a Christian cannot commit any crime
or
ethicly irresponsible act. See "not true christian." [3.13]
4.47 HECTOR'S LAW
Description: A fundi, given enough time, will debunk itself without outside
intervention. However, the fundi is often too stupid to know that it has
debunked itself. [Hector Plasmic never put this in words, so I did.]
Í5: Biblical Contradiction ListÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
[From Shelby Sherman, Kelsey Bjarnason, Marilyn Burge, Larry Sites and
Simon Ewins]
God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark
- Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Terah's lifespan.
According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was
born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore
he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born)
plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran -
as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as
Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran.
So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32
states he lived 205 years.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in -
Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land
- Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27,
Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that
was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the
sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9
God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies),
Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42
The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah
(where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Solomon's reign.
Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews
left Egypt to David beginning his reign as 40
(Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years.
According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so
Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years
(of David's reign) = 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1
states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the
Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left
Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the Hebrews
left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476)
94 years.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1
Sam 28:6
Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.aj
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:20:08
EID:43ae 20593280
MSGID: 1:250/820 009dda0f
Chron 10:13,14
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13
Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah
his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron
3:11,12
Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of
Jotham - Matt 1:8,9
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2
Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel
6:6
Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron
13:9
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Joab's numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in
Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5
Joab's numbering of the army. 800,000 soldiers in
Israel; 500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ISA 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are
over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fa-
thers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor
spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was
born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of
age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son
of Heli,
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward
the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
to see the sepulchre.
MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary
the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that
they might come and anoint him.
JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early,
when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone
taken away from the sepulchre.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
JOH 10:30 I [Jesus] and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said,
I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
In 2 Kings 10:30, God said that at the Jezreel massacre, Jehu
had done "according to all that was in my heart". God was so
pleased that he promised Jehu's sons to the forth generation to
rule Israel (15:12). Yet Hosea opens his book by judging Jeroboam,
Jehu's 3rd generation by saying God will avenge the blood of
Jezreel upon hin (Hosea 1:4-5).
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
When God brought the people out of Egypt, he instructed Moses
in proper sacrifice. (Ex 34:25-26; NU 6:13-17; 7:84-88; 15:1-14)
Lev 7:38 confirms God commanded Moses in this. Yet Jeremiah,
speaking for God says, "I gave your ancestors no commands about
sacrifices when I brought them out of Egypt" (Je 7:21-23).
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
How could the stars sing (Job 38:4-7) at the creation of the earth when
Genesis 1 says stars were created after the earth?
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Taken by David II Sam. 8.4: I Chr. 18.4:
1,700 horsemen 1,000 chariots
20,000 foot soldiers 7,000 horsemen
20,000 foot sldrs
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ammonite mercenaries II Sam. 10.6: I Chr. 19.7:
20,000 + 1,000 + 32,000 chariots +
12,000 men army of king of
Maacah
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Slain by David II Sam. 24.9: I Chr. 19.18:
700 charioteers + 7,000 charioteers +
40,000 horsemen + 40,000 horsemen
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Census figures II Sam. 24.9: I Chr. 21.5:
Israel 800,000 Israel 1,100,000
Judah 500,000 Judah 470,000
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Price of threshing II Sam. 24.24: I Chr. 21.25:
floor 50 shekels 600 shekels
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Stalls for chariot I Kings 4.26: II Chr. 9.25:
horses 40,000 4,000
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Capacity of the 'sea' I Kings 7.26: II Chr. 4.5:
2,000 baths 3,000 baths
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Is pi equal to 3.0000 as claimed in I Kings 7:23?
Two different versions of the words of god in the ten commandments.
Who carried Jesus' cross?
Who was Jesus paternal grandfather?
Is Jesus opposed to divorce or does he allow it?
Did Judas hang himself or fall down and "burst asunder"?
Acts 9:7 or 22:9?
Matthew 27:46,50 or Luke 23:46 or John 19:30?
Proverbs 4:7 or Ecclesiastes 1:18 or 1 Corinthians 1:19?
Acts 2:30 or Matthew 1:18?
Matthew 28:1 or Mark 16:1 or John 20:1?
John 10:30 or John 14:28?
Genesis 1:25,26 or Genesis 2:18,19?
Genesis 7:2 or Genesis 7:8,9?
Matthew 5:9 or Matthew 10:34?
Matthew 5:39 or Luke 12:51?
Matthew 26:52 or Luke 22:36?
Luke 6:27 or John 2:15?
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
a) I Kings 6:1 says that 480 years passed from the start of the Exodus to
the start of construction on the first temple by Solomon.
b) Gal 3:17 says that 430 years passed from the covenant with Abraham to
the
delivery of the Law to Moses.
c) The chapters of Genesis after the flood account give the periods in years
that passed between the births of various individuals from Noah to
Abraham, giving a period of 390 years from the flood to the covenant with
Abraham.
Thus, according to the Bible, the Flood took place 1300 years before Solomon
began construction of the first temple.
Now ...
a) The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 BCE by similar
analysis in the other direction, placing the flood around 2250 BCE.
b) The Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before
2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid was built just prior to the 26th century
BCE), 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood.
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ak
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:22:10
EID:836f 205932c0
MSGID: 1:250/820 009e0911
c) There is no mention in any Egyptian inscriptions of a global flood
around 2250 BCE. (You think that maybe they just didn't notice it?)
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
In Luke 22:41 we have Jesus and the disciples in the garden and Jesus moves
away from them to pray. We then get some details about the praying and how
he sweated blood in his 'agony' from v42 to v44. In v45 Jesus returns to
the
disciples and finds that they are all sleeping.
My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them know what
Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he sweated blood?
In fact, in John, Jesus does not pray and no one falls asleep. In Mark,
we
find the same (almost) as in Luke, that is, details about what Jesus said
in
his prayer related by (one of?) those that were sleeping at the time. In
Matthew, we have a similar story with detail that no one was awake to
witness.
Furthermore, in reading these three passages one gets the distinct feeling
that Jesus wasn't exactly thrilled by the prospect of being sacrificed for
the sins of mankind.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Gen. 1:12 --- grass and herb created
Gen. 1:21 --- fish and fowl created
Gen. 1:25 --- beasts, cattle and creeping things created
Gen. 1:27 --- man created
Now...
Gen. 2:18 --- it is noted that God did not want the man to be alone
Gen. 2:19 --- so... beasts and fowl created
Note that in Gen. 1:25 beast are created _followed_ by v26 which says that
god wanted to create man and in v27 he does. In 2:18 the reason given for
creating the beasts etc is that god didn't want man to be alone so he
created beasts.
How can anyone possibly claim that this is not a blatant contradiction
without giving up any appearance that they may be sane? **
To recap...
In Gen. 2 the _reason_ that beasts are created is because man should not
be
alone. This can only mean that man existed prior to the creation of the
beasts.
In Gen. 1 the _reason_ that man was created was because he was to have
dominion over the beasts. This can only mean that the beasts already
existed.
Note the use of the word 'so' in Gen. 1:27 and the word 'will' in Gen.
2:18. These _have_ to mean that the chronology is as stated. There is no
need to believe anything ahead of time. The language used and the statements
made make it abundantly clear that the order is different. If anyone denies
this then we can only have serious concerns for their mental health.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
If there is any area that one would suppose would be cohesive and accurate
it
should be in the area of the genealogy of Jesus, David and Adam. However,
even an area of such importance is contradictory and replete with obvious,
glaring errors.
(*) Definite disparity. Note first is as early as Jesus' grandfather.
(?) Most likely simply a spelling error.
(!) Out of sync similarity.
(1) Common to both but out of sync.
(2) Common to both but out of sync.
(3) Back in sync.
(4) End of last common sync.
(5) Start in sync to Adam.
Matthew Luke I.Chronicles
------------ ------------ ------------
Jesus Jesus
Joseph Joseph
*Jacob *Heli
Matthan ?Matthat
Eleazar ?Levi
Eliud Melchi
Achim Janna
Sadoc Joseph
Azor Mattathias
!Eliakim Amos
Abiud Naum
Esli
Nagge
Maath
Mattathias
Semei
Joseph
Juda
Joanna
Rhesa
1Zorobabel 1Zorobabel
2Salathiel 2Salathiel
Jechonias Neri
Josias Melchi
Amon Addi
Manasses Cosam
Ezekias Elmodam
Achaz Er
Joatham ?Jose
Ozias ?Eliezer
Joram ?Jorim
Matthat
Levi
Simeon
Juda
Josaphat ?Joseph
Asa Jonan
Abia !Eliakim
Roboam Melea
Menan
Mattatha
*Solomon *Nathan
3David 3David 3David (2:15)
Jesse Jesse Jesse
Obed Obed Obed
Booz Booz ?Boaz
Salmon Salmon ?Salma
Naasson ?Naasson ?Nahshon
Aminadab Aminadab ?Amminadab
Aram Aram ?Ram
Esrom Esrom ?Hezron
Phares Phares ?Pharez
Judas ?Juda ?Judah
*Jacob *Jacob *Israel (2:1)
Isaac Isaac Isaac
4Abraham 4Abraham Abraham (1:34)
Thara ?Terah (1:26)
Nachor ?Nahor
Saruch ?Serug
Ragau ?Reu
Phalec ?Peleg
Heber ?Eber
Sala 4?Shelah
*Cainan
Arphaxad 5Arphaxad
Sem ?Shem
Noe ?Noah
Lamech Lamech
Mathusala ?Methuselah
Enoch ?Henoch
Jared ?Jered
Maleleel ?Mahalaleel
Cainan ?Kenan
Enos ?Enosh
Seth ?Sheth
Adam Adam
There is a 15 generation difference between Matthew and Luke. Matthew has
Jesus descended from David through Solomon and Luke has it through Nathan.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.al
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:24:10
EID:412e 20593300
MSGID: 1:250/820 009e381d
God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13
Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7
The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
According to Luke 2:21-39, Jesus is taken to the Jerusalem Temple
eight days after he is born; the family then go up to Nazareth.
In
Matthew 2:14-23, after being born the family flee in Egypt and stay
there until Herod dies; even on returning, they avoid Judea and go up
to
Nazareth.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Jesus began his ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark
1:14,15,17.
Jesus began his ministry while John was free and before being imprisoned
-
John 1:28-29, 3:25-30
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Jesus baptised - John 3:22
Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38
Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross - Matthew 27:32
Jesus carries his own cross - John 19:17,18
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Abraham was justified by faith - Rom 4:1-5
Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7
Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Acts 9:7 states that the men with Paul stood speechless, hearing the voice
but not seeing anyone.
Acts 22:9 states they did not hear the voice.
Acts 26:14 states they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Matthew 27:5 states that Judas went out and hanged himself.
Acts 1:16-18 it states that Judas "...purchased a field with the reward
of
iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the
midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born
Jesus, who is called Christ.
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age,
being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son
of Heli,
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Matthew 27:46,50 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My
God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he
cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,
"Father,
unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he
gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,
"It
is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom:
and with all thy getting get understanding.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that
increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the
wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of
the prudent.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had
sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his
loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ
to sit on his throne;
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When
as
his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they
came together, she was found with child of the Holy
Ghost.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which
was
made of the seed of David, according to the flesh.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the
first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
to see the sepulchre.
Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the
mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that
they might come and anoint him.
John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when
it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone
taken away from the sepulchre.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
again
unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I
go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and
cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon
the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the
sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and
over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that
creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should
be
alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of
the
field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam
to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called
every living creature, that was the name thereof.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the
male
and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male
and his female.
Genesis 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of
fowls,
and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
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SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 345/12
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.am
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:26:10
EID:81ef 20593340
MSGID: 1:250/820 009e671c
Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male
and the
female, as God had commanded Noah.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
** This argument logically flawed, in fact neither statement contains
enough
information to determine whether men or beasts were created first. In
principle, it is only required that God had knowledge of man's creation
when he created the beasts, and vise-versa, in order for both statements
to be true. More specifically, God may have created the beasts to
provide company for the men that he knew he would create in the future,
or, he may have created man to have dominion over his future creations.
If I were to make the statement:
"Spacesuits were created so that men could fly in rockets."
Would you be able to deduce whether the spacesuit or the rocket was
created first? What if I were to say:
"Rockets were created to carry men in spacesuits into space."
What conclusion would you reach in this case?
Whether or not the whole story contains even a grain of truth is another
matter. [Bill Fontes]
Í6: A short course in comparitive religionÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
7TH DAY ADVENTIST Shit happens on Saturdays.
AGNOSTICISM Does shit exist?
AGNOSTICISM I don't know whether shit happens.
AMARICANISM I'll gladly pay through the nose for this shit.
APATHEISM Who gives a damn about this shit.
ATHEISM I don't believe this shit.
ATHEISM There is no shit!
BAHA'I Shi't ha'ppe'ns
BONZAI BOZOISM Make shit happen.. OH SHIT!!
BORN AGAIN Shit happens but I am saved.
BUDDHISM If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
BUDDHISM When shit happens, is it really shit?
BUSH A thousand points of shit.
CALVINISM If you're not saved, tough shit.
CASTRO We have to make this shit work somehow.
CATHOLICISM If shit happens, I deserve it.
CATHOLICISM Let shit happen to someone else.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST If shit happens, don't worry. It will go away on
its own time if you pray for it.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST Shit isn't real.
CONFUCIANISM Confucious say, "shit happens".
DEJA VUISM I've been through this shit before.
DEMOCRATISM How can we send a man to the moon and still have
all
this shit.
DIANETICS You need to clear yourself of this shit.
EASTERN ORTHODOX Rome doesn't know shit.
EPISCOPALIAN Fecal matter occurs.
EVANGELISM Shit happens. (Pass it on.)
EXISTENTIAL I shit, therefore I sit.
FUNDAMENTALISM Born-again shit.
GERTRUDE STEIN A shit is a shit is a shit.
GORBACHEV That shit just didn't work.
HARE KRISHNA Shit happens rama rama ding ding.
HEDONISM When shit happens, enjoy it!
HINDUISM This shit happened before.
HOLISTIC There's more shit here than I figured on.
ISLAM If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
ISLAM We make shit happen to everybody else.
JAINISM Shit happens but don't step in it.
JEHOVAH'S WITLESS Do you want to buy a subscription to our shit?
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS Knock, knock. "shit Happens."
JESUITISM If shit happens and no one hears it, did it really
make a sound?
JIM JONESISM If shit happens, drink Kool-Aid.
JUDAISM Why does this shit always happen to us?
LAO-TZU It is utterly pointless to try to explain shit.
MINIMALIST Shit
MORMONISM Shit happens again & again & again.
It's evil to say "shit."
Wear your magic underware and this shit won't happen
NATIVE AMERICAN We want our shit back!
NEW AGE Crystal power counteracts shit.
NEW AGE Shit happens and it happens to smell good.
PENTACOSTALISM Praise the shit!
PROTESTANTISM If shit happens, you deserve it.
PROTESTANTISM This shit won't happen if I work harder.
RASTAFARIANISM Let's smoke this shit.
REPUBLICANISM There's nothing like a good shit. Flush the toilet.
RLDS Brigham is full of shit.
SATANISM Shit rules!
SCIENTOLOGY This shit is expensive.
SECULAR HUMANISM Shit evolves.
SHINTOISM Everything except Japan is shit.
STOICISM So shit happens, Big deal. I can take it.
TAOISM Shit happens.
TELEVANGELISM This shit won't happen if you donate $99.95 to
me.
UNITARIAN Shit is all basically the same.
UNITARIAN What is this shit?
VEGETARIANISM I don't eat that shit!
ZEN What is the sound of shit happening?
Í7: Echo Sampler (Quotes)ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
"In other words, you're full of shit, you *know* you're full of shit, you
know that *we* know you're full of shit, and you simply don't have the
backbone to come out of the full-of-shit closet." - David Worrell
"I thank God there are no free schools nor printing, and I hope we shall
not have these [for a] hundred years; for learning has brought
disobedience, and heresy, and sects into the world, and printing has
divulged them." - William Berkeley, Governor of the Colony of Virginia,
1671
"Welcome to the lovely world of HolySmoke! Watch out! The sugar-coating
you now wear will probably wear off before long. It doesn't take very
long, here. We're the Comet Cleanser of religion." - Questor Thews
"We're not here to discuss religion, we're here to be disgusted by it."
-
Gwen "Gwenny the Pooh" Todd
"Some parents, primarily fundamentalist Christians, would like the
schools to teach their particular moral values. Those values are not
necessarily shared by everyone." - D Mc Intire (talk.origins / Usenet)
"Wrong! I'm the fucking antichrist. Bow down slave!" - Ryan Shaw
"You must suffer from some unknown mental condition, Andy. Throughout
your posts you seem to equate liberalism with people who you consider
"evolutionists[sic]." Liberalism, and conservatism for that matter are
both political theories and have very little to do with whether or not
one is considered an "evolutionist[sic]" by you. Wait, on the other hand
most dumbass rednecks seem to be conservative. Shit, I take that back.
Even a redneck isn't that stupid." -RS
"I feel sorry for you, 'cause when the END comes, you are going to be one
of those crying for the rocks and mountains to fall on you to hide you
from God's glory. You will finally fall on your face and worship the One
that created ALL, and then you will not have a chance. A carpenter was
not elected as God, not by anyone of this world. You will know, one day
that God wanted you to follow Him and THEN it will be too late. I have
pity for you, for as you are speaking now, you are lost. You can believe
whatever you want to, God gave you that choice, and you choose to follow
the devil. May God have mercy on your soul." - Greg Waggy
"If you are from an area where gays aren't bashed you wont be afraid to
experiment if you want." - Jeff Androsac
"YOU AREN'T BORN GAY!!! I DON'T CARE WHAT HOMOSEXUALS SAY, THEY CHOOSE
TO BE GAY. AND THEY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, SO HELL AWAITS THEM!" - JA
"The Church is very tolerant, as is proven by God not sending a
lightening bolt to fry those who blaspheme in the manner which the ULC
does - particularly by taking something which God and millions of men
hold sacred, and then attempting to make a joke of it, belittling it, and
smearing it with every type of ridicule you can think of." - Fr. Lee Mc
Colloster
"It is nice to rember, when people are so foolish, one day soon every
knee will bow and every mouth will confess Jesus as Lord!!!" - Hampie
Mcdonald
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.an
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:28:10
EID:80af 20593380
MSGID: 1:250/820 009e9621
"A.I.D.S. was actually a GAY disease until the gay scum community
infected the NORMAL world!" - Dale A. Cook
"Key words: "we want". Instead of making demands, why not try working to
those ends? Preferably without shotguns." - Marty Leipzig
"Look, Chickie. It's your Bible, your rules; YOU go to hell." - ML
"Coming from a person who can see through a keyhole with both eyes open,
I just consider the source." - ML
"I think you're anti-science, anti-intellect and anti-logic. The mere
fact that you're a Xtian to boot really does nothing other than label you
with the type of superstition with which you feel most comfortable." - ML
"Read up on what you rant about; perhaps then you won't come across as
such a blightered moron. Perhaps." - ML
"Of course it just seems that way you to you as you dwell in that
paranoid fetid martyred delusion you call a life. Judges and school
administrators are there to protect the populace from the Neofascist,
hate-mongering, right-wing, ignorance inculcating group of Fundamentalist
liars who try to pawn off their own fallacious view of narrowly dogmatic,
and hallucinatory, morality as science. Against that we must be ever
vigilant. We cannot again allow the armies of the night, clad in their
tawdry Bible passages and threadbare beliefs, to usurp what they can
never attain justifiably; however they may lie, cheat or swindle." - ML
"My name is Marty, and I too, like our illustrious author of the missive
immediately above, am an unrepentant fundy basher. Just as some people
feel compelled to rubberneck terrible traffic accidents, purchase police
scanners to vicariously hear of other's misfortunes or stomp some clod's
foot protruding into the aisle in a particularly crowded airline flight;
I am possessed by the unrelenting desire, nay, compulsion, to help
certain people who are consumed by the passion to make idiots of
themselves, either personally or in international electronic fora. When
some "person" proudly proclaims that "man evolved from apes"; I see this
as nothing more than a plaintive cry for self-immolation. When they
claim that there's "boats in dem dere hills"; again, the pitiful cry of
a
person desperate to be martyred, but without the genetic or intellectual
horsepower to carry it out themselves. When they spew plaintive Bible
verses to document everything from their own particularly skewed, and
oftimes hallucinatory, view of morality to make an attempt at
justification of atrocities, injustices and just plain antisociality;
they are merely whining, in their own bizarre and stridulatory manner,
for someone to come along and humiliate them with a blizzard of fact,
logic and reason. And yet some would go so far to condemn my actions.
I
see it as preforming a service to these benighted individuals; a sort of
an electronic version of Dr. Kevorkian." - ML
"Welcome to Holysmoke. That is probably the last nice thing I will ever
say to you. Such is life." - George Rudzinski
"Control, Are you stupid? Do you see Jesus dumbass?" - GR
"And you are still short one live Jesus dumbass. What part of that don't
you understand?" - GR
"I interact just fine with fellow human beings. What has yet to be
established is that you are human." - GR
"I have no problems with my self esteem. I don't need any imaginary
friends to get me through life." - GR
"Fundies are dazed and confused. Like a duck hit on the head." - GR
"And nobody considers you to be stupid. You have shown that you are. No
need to get pissed at us because you decide to demonstrate that you are
stupid." - GR
"So don't practice sex. The gene pool won't miss your participation." -
GR
"So me blowing your head off is okay? I'm beginning to see that such a
wound wouldn't be fatal." - GR
"Mark 16: 15-19. If you have the faith I have the cure." -GR
"Well God don't talk to me. And until you cough up the chemical formula
for the pills sitting on my monitor, God don't talk to you." - GR
"Hardly. My heathen premise is that screwing my wife on a Sunday morning
has top priority over wasting time listening to some snake-oil salesmen
in what ever church you wish to pick." - GR
"I so love to see Christians disagree. Why don't we lock the two of you
in a room with a loaded gun and the Bible? And the one that walks out
alive gets to be the "True" christian." - GR
"When you are on fire, no matter how many times you scream you are not on
fire, it doesn't put the flames out." - GR
"I personally believe religion is a mind killer and the most evil thing
that one man has ever foisted on another." - GR
"Many religious people think I'm the anti-Christ. I guess that would
qualify as an affiliation." - GR
"I am compelled to reply to this discussion. As a Christian, I feel that
people who are Gay or Lesbian are children of God, and that they like us
are loved by God. There is no mention to my knowledlge in either the Old
Testament or the New Testament that Homosexuality is accursed by God
whatsoever. Therefore, there is no Moral position based on the Bible in
Christianity which condemms it. True, there is no position either which
blesses it as well. Homosexuality exit, it is neither good or bad, as
these are our own values being imposed on it, and as such reflect our own
fears or ignorance. For instance, in the last 30 years Blacks, and Women
have achieved a level of equality unheard of centuries before, and what
is more true is that taking away their advances is blasphemous, and
unconiousable. Gay people are no different than you or I, they have
families that care for them, they work and contribute to our society
greatly. To deny them equal rights under the law, and morally, would be
the same as stepping back into time when tyrants ran the world and people
different from them were put to the sword. Any attack on Gay people is
just plain homophobia, and disguising it as morally wrong because the
Rev. Jerry Falwell(for example) condems it, is just plain stupidity.
Gay people want acceptance and respect as citizens, brothers, sisters,
mothers, and fathers, friends, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I am glad
that we live in a age when people are shaking off old irrational fears
and bigotry, even though we have a long way to go before we can build a
society, and world based on love and respect. I just hope I will see it
in my lifetime." - John Oliver
"I advocate the murder of no one. However, I _do_ advocate referring to
an abortionist doctor as an infant murdering, satan-led monster,
masquerading as a doctor of medicine. Reason: He is one." - "Lon S.
Mabon"
"Preston, you should know that when a person is saved (born again) they
become a new person in Christ. New means you start from the beginning.
As in Baby.." - David (2' 5") Cupp.
"Argument from popularity. There was a time when a hundred percent of
the world's population thought the world was flat (if they thought about
it at all). Did the make the world flat? Hardly! It make a hundred
percent of the people stupid, and nothing more." - Marilyn Burge
"Take your bible banging and shove it where the sun don't shine. It is
a
farce and totally unnecessary to a worthwhile, virtuous life, if only you
were adult enough to know it." - MB
"This brings some strange mental images to mind. First we have Christ
blowing a column of fire out of his ass like a Saturn V. And then we have
the Virgin Mary strapped onto the side of a booster like the Space
Shuttle." - J.J. Hitt
"But this echo is where we deal with stupid shit.
The All Time Ultimate In Stupid Shit.
Like the motion that our conduct should be regulated by the moral code of
some 4000 year old nomadic Desert Tramps whose favorite pasttimes were
incest and killing each other with rocks.
[...]
Or the notion that there is some Invisible Guy who knows everything and
controls the universe... who just happens to be asleep at the switch
right now.
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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PATH: 250/820 501 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ap
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:32:12
EID:882f 20593400
MSGID: 1:250/820 009ef4bf
"We treat fundies and apologists with appropriat counseling in this forum
- Up the side of the head with the lug wrench of truth." - SS
"By-the-way, Mary is still a slut and your precious Jesus is long dead
and rotted in the grave. I've profaned your Savior, now what do you
intend to do about it?" - SS
"Damn, I asked for evidence and all I got was this lousy Josh McDowell
T-shirt." - SS
"Tell me, why does God need to prove himself? He is based on belief.
You are to believe, not to question! God performs miracles every day."
-
Steve Lew
"Let's face it, matters of spirituality have to do with the spirit, not
the intellect." - Carl Schulz
"This echo is abomination. This echo is also filled with those who will
one day bend their knee to Jesus Christ and call him Lord, whether they
like it or not! And to think how much fun I'm gonna have fun watching
you say it." - Martin Riley
"The fact that a Jewish hasid lived in the 1st century CE in the country
of either Galilee or Judaea, was very charismatic, a little brilliant
and a little looney is not in question." - Simon Ewins
"If God is "infinite and eternal and the Creator of all" then God must be
the creator of evil. Since God created evil, the concept of evil must
have, at least, passed through his mind and, further, since "whatever is
good is good because it is consistent with his mind" the reverse must
also be true. That is, "whatever is evil is evil because it is consistent
with his mind". This makes God directly responsible for all of the evil
that exists since it was "created from his mind". This requires that evil
itself must be "consistent with his mind". So, is the mind of god
predominantly good or evil? The amount of evil in the world (according to
Christian theology) far outweighs the amount of good. This would indicate
that God created more evil than he did good. This would indicate that the
"mind" of God is predominantly evil. Why would one wish to worship a God
who's "mind" is mostly evil? More interesting, however, is your
anthropomorphizing of god. You assign God a "mind". How do you know that
God has a "mind"?" - SE
"Is this the depth of your naivete, or do we have more to look forward
to?" - SE
"Jesus made claims that have been proven to be wrong... Mark 9:1,
Matthew 16:28, Matthew 23:36, Luke 9:27, Matthew 24:21- 34, Matthew
10:23... all claiming foreknowledge of his return, all wrong. Gee,
maybe he's dead." - SE
"Lies are hard to keep straight in an era without sophisticated
communications, it would seem." - SE
"Are you looking to win the award for most stupid question? Setting
aside for a moment that rocks are hard what would be the result of one
dropping on your head? You can't 'set aside' an essential element of
_anything_ and expect to find an answer that bears any relationship to
reality." - SE
"To accept as truth what the gospels (which were written after Paul's
letters and were designed to support his ideas) say about Jesus, is to
accept as truth what Goebbels says about Hitler. To accept as truth what
Paul says about himself as supported by what the author of Acts says
about Paul, is to accept what Hitler says about himself as supported by
what Goebbels says about Hitler as truth." - SE
"Christianity has nothing to be proud of. Any good that it may have done
has been completely offset by the perpetuation of racial and religious
hatred that it has fostered and encouraged." - SE
"Paul only quotes Jesus twice. Why would that be if he is basing his
entire theology on the life and work and resurrection of Jesus?" - SE
"God told me the Book of Mormon was true." - Conrad Knudson
"Needless to say, the LDC's birth-rates are just rediculous... I'm for
compulsary sterilization, muh-self." - Jeff Freeman
"I missed being god by one vote!" - Odin
"Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning." - Jesse Jones
"What you call a refusal to answer was a refusal to respond" - JJ
"When we believe that our individual will is the superior force in the
cosmos we deny the harmony which creation itself seeks. Jesus's struggle
in Gesthemane shows us that there is a will to be served beyond our own
self-interests. . ." - JJ
"BUT... if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, until I am
proven wrong, I am right." - Zach Webb
"My my, I have the false Christian scum (and their infidel, reprobate
brethren), the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all ganging up
on me." - Steve Winter
"Aids cures queers." - SW
"I wish I was their to light the ovens." - William Stone
"Do you imagine that sexuality began with mammals? Cockroaches are male
and female, as you would notice if you paid any attention to your
congregation." - Don Martin
"Sorry to leave you out, but I do not number asshole dipshits among my
friends. Now, since you have made this assertion about this particular
loon, please be so good as to show that his handle is indeed a "warrior
name", that it was given to this jerk by somebody else, and the ways in
which we may be sure that he did not apply the name to himself, as part
of
his masturbatory fantasies. I shall probably live; whether shall I learn
anything from your idiot speculations about third parties remains
dependent upon your ability to provide some evidence for your assertion."
- DM
"I have here a promissory note signed by you pledging to pay me $493,278
by November 30, 1995, or to incur further indebtedness to me at the rate
of 10%, compounded daily and payable upon demand. And here it is,
December 9, and I haven't seen a farthing.
Prove to me that this promissory note does not exist or pay me my money
by
certified check. Now.
Either that, or learn about the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.
[...]
Actually, I would rather prefer that you learned nothing about the fallacy
(and my confidence is buoyed considerably by your repeated demonstrations
that you take a back seat to no one in the matter of learning nothing) and
just sent me the money." - DM
"You know, I work very hard at my insults, striving for the greatest
amount of put-down in the fewest words, hopefully with some memorable
imagery. One of my favorites, for instance, was to a fundy picketing a
film: "When I want something like your opinion, I'll give my dog an
enema." It is succinct, I think, and properly disgusting, while presenting
a process that ends in the satirist's all-time favorite material, shit."
- DM
"Have you any notion how very boring your constant mantra of "C.S. Lewis,
Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton" gets
to be after a while? Nobody denies that there have been and continue to
be brilliant people who believe in religions. Their impact, however, on
our daily lives is a great deal less than the folks with 12-guage
shotguns who may appear at any moment to "justly punish" a baby killer
(and anyone standing in the vicinity) for Christ, the Jim Bakkers who
suck the money from the poor, the Pat Robertsons who seek to change the
laws and other believing riff-raff who otherwise share precious little
with the likes of C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R.
Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton, et al." - DM
"And they're the ones who keep saying to us "why are you so ANGRY?" At
least I am not so angry that I have to deny rights to other people out of
hand." - DM
"Fundies can only be secure in their faith when everybody agrees with
their idiotic notions; therefore they feel impelled to convert whom they
can and shoot the rest in the back." - DM
"It isn't all that bad: they are only required to love their neighbor "as
themselves". Given the degree of self-loathing we see demonstrated by
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.aq
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:34:14
EID:48ee 20593440
MSGID: 1:250/820 009f242f
christians around here (if it were not for the existence of god, I would
be committing murder, arson and rape on a daily basis), they probably
already love their neighbors as they do themselves without working up a
sweat. That love, however, may leave something to be desired." - DM
"Who ignores the likes of Paul Hill, a committed Christian "trying to
make a difference"? Who ignores the various "Family" groups in Colorado
and Oregon, busy trying to drum homosexuals out of the human race? They
are certainly "trying to make a difference."Who ignores the Christians in
Kentucky who check `naughty' books out of the library and do not return
them? Who can deny that they are "trying to make a difference." Who
ignores the friendly folks in Virginia, overwhelmingly Christians, who
seek to place an admitted felon and perjurer, Oliver North, in the U.S.
Senate where he can work his magic on all of us? Are they not "trying to
make a difference." Who ignores the "stealth" candidates in California,
who work at getting elected to school boards by concealing their
Christian agenda by evasion, silence or outright lying, so that they can
impose that agenda on the young from a position of power. They, too, are
"trying to make a difference." I only wish we COULD ignore the Christians
"trying to make a difference," but we dare not turn our backs on the vile
bastards." - DM
"Maggie's echo bombs of religious tracts probably violates the copyright
of some fundy without giving such credit, but piss on him--it's only a
fundy, after all." - DM
"It has long been my impression that most of you buzzards would not
bother to be christians if you did not suppose that heaven was composed
of bleacher seats facing hell." - DM
"But in India, something else is going on. Females are not valued. Only
males are. Wanna bet that when those boys end up competing for the only
unmarried girl in town that HER value won't soar? And theirs, at least
so far as the gene pool is concerned, will drop. Such gender-specific
abortion is an excellent way to reduce the overall population, but it
doesn't really begin to operate until the next generation." - DM
"I do not expect, of course, that my ridicule will make fundies
think--they appear to be pretty well proof against that horror--but it
may have that effect on the real audience around here, the silent lurkers
who have not yet given their minds over to the Swaggarts, Robertsons and
Falwells." - DM
"Certainly, and than am I: however, he specified "fundemental Christian",
which DOES rather drain the pool of available intellect." -DM
"Well for all of you who criticize Mr. Robertson, I can say this. Judge
yourself before judging others. You might make fun of us fundies now,
but we are mobilizing spiritually, politically, and to what worries you
the most financially. We Christians are sick and tired of being accused
of wrongdoing and ridiculed. Lets face it, there are more of us than
you. And we intend to take back the Government that Christians founded.
And cut off your grants that supply some of you with the money to wage
war on us. Organizations like the Christian Coalition scare you and
thats good cause We are going to put you and the evolutionist garbage
you try to push on us on the run." - Joe Savelli [And you didn't believe
him -CH]
"Okay. I'll retract the story about the man who was arrested for praying
in the Florida restaurant. But only because you and others are hung up
on it. This should clear the way for what I really want to prove. That
is the Historicity of Jesus. So, Robert, you have my retraction for what
it's worth. (Not that it's a lie.)" - JS
"Oh well with homosexuals pounding on church doors and screaming to the
occupants "we want your children, we want your children". It just proves
my point that homosexuality is evil. Not to mention that it spreads
disease...." - JS
"Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000. In 1993 900,000 and
still growing. We are going to invade all political and educational
institutions, take them back from the liberal/socialist invaders." -JS
"Libralism and humanism IS evil. Both are destined to fail" -JS
"I see now why Jesus said the Jews' father is the devil. Beware! The
Jew is the antichrist." - Keith Baxter / Larry Rollins / Gerald Norris /
Jack Roberts / Frank Waring
"If 'Jesus' does come to Earth- is it the first coming (as per Jewish
tradition), second (Xian), or third (Mormon)? I wonder- and I hope he
lands feet first on ALL televangelists. (Preying on fear sickens me!!!)"
- Rachael Roth
"Take that piece of paranoid drivel and, print it out, soak it in
gasoline, then shove it up your ass and light it. Have a nice day,
motherfucker." - C. J. Henshaw
"What you call senseless blathering is actually a very fun past time for
those of us who like shoving lit fireworks up fundies' assholes." -
Coridon Henshaw
"Matt, do you suppose incest is why we have fundamentalists?" - Liz
Saunders
"We already have the necessary proof - the Scriptures. God has already
told us what happened. Why do we need further proof?" - Derek Williams
"What scares the shit out of me is that here in southern Tennessee (and
probably many other areas) the psychological clinics are LINKING
religious beliefs and psychological well-being. That's kind of like
giving someone AIDS to cure sexual dysfunction." - Tim Bennett
"EH> [...] Btw, change your initials. they make you look canadian." -
Martin Goldberg
"Texas is much better than the State of the Perpetually Dead Elvis.
Jesus, the smell is atrocious. Did something die up there?" - MG
"The Theory of Gravity does not address these either. Am I to believe
that my computer will soon head for the ceiling?" - MG
"i read this. It is full of nice stories, emotional bullshit, and a host
of other devices that might fool a very stupid person. It is not,
however, evidence." - MG
"See you in Hell.... (I won't be there, but I'll be able to see YOU
there.)" - Doug Brewer
"Welfare is cancelled, all women come home (except single women who
obviously must support themselves somehow.) What happens? 1) A
tremendous amount of tax money is freed up. 2) Men fill the now vacant
positions, thus reducing or possibly eliminating unemployment. 3)
Children have one parent home all the time; thus they are raised by their
parents instead of daycare. I think the advantages of this are obvious.
In contrast, look at what we have instead...." - DB
"You do not understand the essence of Satan, or of Satanism. You do not
have to worship Satan to be a Satanist. Satanists believe that everyone
is their own God. You need only worship yourself, and you are practicing
Satanism." -DB
"First of all, innocence is subjective. Who is truly innocent? Just a
question... Second, anyone who ever died at God's hand (in the Bible)
died for a reason. Third, Christians view death as a beginning, not an
end. So, to die (say in a city that was destroyed by God's judgement)
wouldn't pose that big a problem for me. There isn't that much worth
hanging around here for, anyway." -DB
"Modern technology is merely evidence that h. sapiens sapiens is not all
irrevocably stupid and that progress is made in spite of our most earnest
efforts to forestall it at times." - Preston Simpson
"Perhaps if you actually bothered to read literature rather than burn it,
you would have seen them." - PS
"I hear the president is naming you Secretary of the Inferior." - PS
"Go try Stevie Winter's Wholly Bible echo. I'm sure you'd get a kick out
of it." - PS
"Christian [Miller], you are the LAST person who needs to be giving me
advice on how I should go about living with myself. You are a disgrace
to
your god, your religion, your species, your family, and yourself. I find
you to be a repugnant and worthless human being--and I write all of this
with not a single trace of anger." - PS
"So, you dislike anyone with differing political beliefs? Not surprising;
you did admit that you were conservative, after all." - PS
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ar
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:36:16
EID:49ae 20593480
MSGID: 1:250/820 009f53ab
"Dear God: you're making a horrible mess of things. Please abdicate and
allow the election of a worthy successor." - PS
"There's no convincing a mind that is not only closed but has been
bricked over and had steel plate welded in place over it." - PS
"Your god seems to fear questioning, and the authority figures in your
religion discourage questioning far more than they encourage it. Such is
a definite sign of an oppressive and dangerous organization." - PS
"If you take two lions and two sheep aboard the ark, it's a cinch bet
that the lions will probably eat the sheep or some other herbivore upon
release." - PS
"You've basically said to the world "I don't understand why some things
happen, so God must have done it!" That's silly. If you don't know why
something happened, try to find out. If you can't, leave it at that and
go on with your life." -PS
"I think you're full of shit. I wasn't in it for gain. I was in it
because I believed. I was in it because I had faith. And when my faith
was shaken to its foundation, nobody came to help, nobody answered my
prayers, nothing. Your God, if he exists, is the most callous deity to
ever be worshipped, bar none. And his followers exemplify this
beautifully." - PS
"We've explained it to you at least three times, in clear English. You
claimed a degree in English; I suggest that you return to the institution
that granted it and demand a refund, because it's for damned sure that
you didn't learn anything there." - PS
"How about people who just don't care? Bipolar thinking is ridiculous
when applied in this fashion to humanity, since life is not always a
clear-cut case of "us" against "them." Such thinking breeds paranoia,
distrust, animosity, and all sorts of unharmonious things. What would
your god think of that?" - PS
"`In God we trust' - David Koresh" - Sunjester
[OBSOLETE]
"Put THAT in your Bible and smoke it." - Stephen Green
"I find it strangely pleasing to know my thoughts and actions cause you
so much grief." - SG
"Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest." -
Jimmy Swaggart
"Describe, if you will, what kind of phony God you would come up with if
you were to create a phony God and start your own religion. Ask yourself
what kind of traits you'd *have* to give it. Visible or invisible? etc.
Then, compare the result to the popular Christian God." - Mike Prather
"The problem is that some folks are so open minded that their brains fall
out. Then some really bizaare ideas get stuffed into the opening, at
which time they slam and bolt the barn door after the horse has run off,
and never let anything else in or out. Then they come to Holysmoke and
start posting stuff about universal minds thinking with pilot waves and
dead presidents rising and orgasmic saviors and denying sunlight and
quoting winos like Hoyle and Schroeder." - "Hector Plasmic"
"He just reinterprets whatever's at hand to fit what he wants it to say,
carefully discarding any bits that get in the way as "parables" and then
reinterpreting them, too. Finally, ignore any more logical explanations
and conflicting facts, and -- voila -- instant fundy, just add flood
water and bake in hell to taste." - HP
"It's laughable, really. The fundies claim "gods exist!" When you ask
them if they have any evidence that gods exist, they eventually get
around to saying "no, but you can _sense_ that gods exist." When you ask
them for evidence for that statement, you usually get "I just know it."
And when you ask them how it is they "just know" you usually get "you can
_sense_ that gods exist."" - HP
"I'm sorry, Mikey, did you run across some evidence that xtianity is
true? Would you mind sharing it with us? Or are you just full of shit
as usual?" - HP
"Time: Here and now. Surviving members of David Koresh's Branch
Davidians report seeing David the Koresh, Lamb of God, alive and
preaching. They're widely regarded as nuts. The Enquirer and similar
yellow tabloids pick up the tale and begin printing stories about people
seeing the Koresh hither and yon performing miracles. The stories are
widely regarded as garbage -- except for a few ignorant souls who also
believe Elvis and JFK are still running around. A few years pass, the
stories of Koresh sightings still crop up from time to time. Henry
Kissinger has died, and John Prewett committed suicide rather than admit
he was a false prophet. The Branch Davidians stick to their story,
saying that the Koresh has ascended to heaven to be with God. They pick
up followers. The church grows slowly but steadily. People still think
they're nuts, but a few eyebrows are being raised. The fundamentalist
xtian televangelists begin screaming about false prophets and followers
of the devil when they mention the Koreshians. A few more years pass.
Most of the Branch Davidians have died of old age. Their followers,
still growing, set down the tales they've been told about the Koresh's
sacrificial death to atone for the sins of mankind and subsequent
resurrection and ascension to heaven and begin calling themselves
Koreshians. A prominent televangelist who'd been preaching against the
Koreshians is in an automobile accident; when he recovers, he claims to
have seen the Koresh and been converted (saved). He tours the country
preaching at Koreshian churches, howls his message over the airwaves.
Membership in the Church of Koresh jumps sharply as many people leave the
fundamentalist churches to become Koreshians. A few more years pass.
The televangelist, now an old man, is assassinated. Membership again
jumps sharply, spurred by his martyrdom. The stories set down years
before are assembled and appended to the King James bible (oddly, written
using "thee" and "thou"s). The stories contain contradictions and
obvious fallacies, but they're accepted as dogma by the Koreshians, who
interpret over them and/or call them "proof of the truth of the
writings." Approximately two thousand years pass -- it's 1995 AK (After
Koresh). The Koreshian religion is held, at least superficially, by
1/3rd of the world's 10 billion population (there'd be a lot more people,
but the Koreshians exterminated a lot of heretics and unbelievers over a
thousand years before during the Second Dark Age). Mikey Hardy's
descendant says, in a room full of atheists, "And we have evidence that
David Koresh rose from the dead." Most everyone present considers him a
nut, and farts in his general direction. Mikey's descendant screams 'IS
NOT!'" - HP
"Moreover, according to the fundies here, we're guilty until "saved." So,
to extend Kenny's "breaking the law" analogy, it'd need to be a law
against breathing, or some other activity that humans can't help doing.
In fact, I offer this analogy which seems much to the point: A king
declared that anyone breathing air not bought from the king's air
bottling plant would be thrown into the dungeon and tortured forever.
The king offered simple terms -- all you had to do to pay for your
bottles of air was fall to your knees, grovel a bit, and thank the king
for giving you air (the king had previously allowed the president of the
air bottling plant to rape and kill his daughter the princess to pay the
price for everyone's air, but actually she wore a full-body condom and
faked her death so she suffered very little if at all). Now, an atheist
might say that the king was full of shit and was damning his people by
the thousands for no reason at all, but a theist might say that the
people were damning themselves by refusing to partake in the king's
almost-freely-given gift of a bottle of air." - HP
"We don't hate you, little fundy. We feel sorry for you." -HP
"Occam's Razor cut your foot off again." -HP
"Now go shoot yourself. For Christ or not, it doesn't matter. Don't
forget to repent first." -HP
"What an assinine, baseless assertion. Just because Mikey has no
evidence, you must be intentionally refusing to believe him." -HP
"Are you allergic to the truth or something, Mikey?" -HP
"Fundy motto: no sense makes sense." -HP
"Yep. I agree. All bibles should be put under rocks. Big rocks. In
the ocean. On another planet." - Brian C. Kolacy
"Women do have a place in God's kingdom...BELOW that of men." - Jeff
Pruett
"Back to the talking snakes and Adam & Eve again, eh Jeff? The entire
story is pure mythology as you well know but won't admit. It has no more
validity than the myths about Zeus, Hercules or Mithras." - John
Musslewhite
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.as
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:38:18
EID:896f 205934c0
MSGID: 1:250/820 009f8363
"So why don't you guys kill yourselves and get the hell outta our hair?"
- David Worrell
"What is with the fundy fascination with that [Forest Gump] movie? Do
they identify with the main character?" - DW
"*Anybody* [Bosnian Serbs] that makes a habit of shelling civilian
population centers at random is *not* interested in peace. The only way
to make them stop is to wipe them from the face of the Earth." - DW
"At the very least, we should sell (or "loan") the Bosnians
[Muslims/Croats] good counter-battery radar and some MLRSes. Everytime
the Serbs fired anything bigger than a rocket-launched grenade, their
position would be enveloped by thousands of bomblets. After a while,
they'd loose their fascination with artillery." - DW
"I'm beginning to think Mormon churches have brain vacuums install in the
pews. The congregation comes in, sits down, and tubes are inserted up
their asses. Any unnecessary brain matter is then sucked out while they
listen rapturously to the sermon." - DW
"So you feel that it is our *duty* to bash gays in order to prevent
`experimentation'? You disgust me. Maybe we should beat the hell out of
Christians in order to prevent people from experimenting with
Christianity?" - DW
"I'm prejudiced against bigots, fascists, tyrants, and idiots. It just
so happens that many Christians fall into one or more of these
categories." - DW
"I am all too willing to believe that you're just as stupid as you come
across on this echo." - DW
"Do you take groveling lessons or does it come naturally to you?" - DW
"Atheism is MORALLY BANKRUPT because, as Sartre and Nietzsche have
demonstrated, without God as the universal reference point to distinguish
good from evil, there are no moral absolutes. Man becomes the measure of
all things, including his own ethics and morality." - Roger Griffith
"I agree with you there legislating faith is like trying to legislate
agains racism it sounds nice but it just don't work..." - Robert Rice
"God is Powerful...NO other so-called "GOD" could stand one chance
against My Powerful God....Bite me All you LOw-Life Non-Christians!!" -
Jason Bridges
"What I'm doing is typing truth. It is simple to ridicule and ask for
evidence of something someone does not believe, I could take the same
tact. You cannot prove any theory, that's why they are known as
theories. What you offer is not debate. Look the word up in the
dictionary. I am here to say JESUS SAVES." - David Lewellyn
"I do not hate anyone. I recognize homosexuality for what it is. It is
an illness and depravity. At one time this was recognized as truth but
as homosexuals were thrust into the public eye by the AIDS epidemic and
the popular figures who came out of the closet, and the liberal climate
created by the press, homosexuality was labeled an "alternative life
style". It is "popularly believed" that a flight attendant from Canada
introduced AIDS into the U.S. According to researchers he had sex with
several dozen men. Other cases of AIDS did not show up until later among
the non homosexual populace." -DL
"No gay person could ever reproduce unless he were straight in some way."
- Ralph "The sky is blue!" Jansen
"Why can evolution be FACT when there is absolutely NOTHING backing it
up? ... (Because this is science and in science there is no such thing as
a fact.)" - RJ
"If there is, then by definition evolution is most highly improbable
since the each species is *supposed* to die off after it evolves." -RJ
"As for 6000 years, there is quite a bit of evidence that supports that
idea. So, maybe he really isn't that stupid. Maybe he knows something
you don't." -RJ
"Some group has said that they actually discovered the ark, and that NASA
has gotten behind them on this 100%... Don't you dare quote me on
that..." -RJ
"I made a report to the class on Creation Vs. Evolution . . . You know
who won . . . Creation . . . evlution is too complicated!!!" - Russ
Offord [elipses in original]
"The magnetic field. Solid hydrogen is a superconductor, and Earth's
magnetic field continues to wane -- back then it would have been many,
many times stronger. And so on." - Leon Brooks
"You have no sense of humor. Typical atheist faire. Learn to live with it
(your dark dismal world, that is, humorless, Godless, hellbound schnook)"
- John Prewett
"May Jesus continue to let you live. Long enough to get your head out of
your ass." -JP
"This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ. There
are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are going to
be transformed into rabid Christers. - JP
"I predict / prophecy in Jesus name that: John F. Kennedy will publicly
reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact the "beast"
of the Revelation." - JP
"Some HolySmokers are putting God on trial. Therefore God exist." - JP
"`god' _does_ exist. Because the rules of physics always stay the same."
- Matt Unterberg
"I'm easily amused, just give me a gun and a field full of
fundamentalists" - Unknown
"(sorry about that - this is my blatant attempt to get a quote in the
HOLYSMOKE.FAQ) " - Mike Perry
"Actually, it is, Kelsey. Theistic evolution is not the same as
atheistic-materialistic evolution. Yet, for some reason, you choose to
use theistic evolution as a rebuttal to my statement that "natural
atheistic-materialistic macro-evolution is dependant on life starting via
a naturalistic-atheistic-materialistic mechanism for biochemical
evolution." I'll explain the difference to you. Atheistic-materialistic
evolution is characterized by the belief that there is no Creator G-d,
that all that we observe in the universe is the result of the laws of
nature acting on matter and energy, plus random and/or chance encounters
of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion years. In
order for Atheistic-materialistic evolution to be true, each stage of the
evolution of the universe (From the origin of the Big Bang, to the origin
of particles, to the origin of stars and planets, to the origin of life
from non-life, to the origin of the species) must have developed via the
laws of nature acting on matter and energy, plus opportune random
encounters of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion
years. If any any one of these stages we can demonstrate that just one of
these steps could not have occurred in this manner, then we have
disproved Atheistic-materialistic evolution. The Atheist world view falls
apart." - Arthur Biele
"Well, I'm 23, though I've had people mistake me for 30. It's my aura of
wisdom and maturity, not my receding hairline. Really it is." - Aaron
Boyden
"No. However, there is life before death. It probably deserves more of
your attention than you've been giving it." -AB
"And you say I'm in a "death cult"?? "Mass starvation"?? Point "*.666"?
You can't use "666", your an atheist, you don't believe in those things,
remember?? Remember, the Bible isn't true, therefore the Anti-christ and
his number 666 is a myth and doesn't exist? For someone who doesn't
believe the Bible, you sure model yourself and your symbols after what's
in it, even if it's the "bad guys". Of course the "bad guys" don't exist
if the Bible isn't true." - Phillip Windell
"You see, without God, a person can become good, or noteworthy, or
famous, or do good things such as heal the sick, teach the ignorant,
protect the young, and all for the simplest reasons or no reason at all
other than the personal happiness derived from such actions. However, if
there _is_ a God, then there is no reason to become a doctor, as God
either wants that person sick or God would cure him. There is no reason
to teach the ignorant, as with a snap of the fingers, God could impart
any degree of knowledge or wisdom to that person and since that hasn't
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.at
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:40:20
EID:4b2e 20593500
MSGID: 1:250/820 009fb2f8
happened, God must want that person ignorant. If God does exist, there
is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do anything for anyone. Anything
you could do to help someone is meaningless as God could help them so
much better if He wanted them to be helped. Anything you could do to
better yourself becomes pointless as God could have done it for you if He
wanted you to be a better person. Indeed, if God did exist, one could
only do one of two things: either totally ignore God and any of His
actions, or become a totally mindless slave to God's word. Either way,
the result is the same: complete meaninglessness to anything and
everything one does." - Kelsey Bjarnason
"Show me exactly which Israelis were brought to Israel by God, as opposed
to the local airlines. Next." - KB
"You seem to be very hot on what the Bible says; I find it hard to
believe that anyone who cannot write a simple sentence correctly is
actually capable of ascertaining the deeper meanings of anything more
complex than a matchbook cover." - KB
"One might look at how the Christians fare in here. Do you have any idea
how often we have one come in and the first thing they do is start
whining about the language in here? How would you like it if someone
went to your house and told you how to speak there? Of course, the next
step for the average Christian here is to start posting all the "great
truths" which "prove God"; again, without having bothered to read enough
mail to realize that _every_ argument they propose has been done to death
already. No, they insist upon believing that in all of human history,
they and they alone have the final proof of God. As often as not, the
next stage is when they start defining terms to suit themseleves.
"Atheism" means "anti-God". "Evolution" involves the Big Bang. And of
course, they almost invariably end up resorting to such silliness as
telling us that we "hate God" because we fear "it might be true" or that
"deep in our hearts we know God is real". The point here is this: the
Christians are treated with the respect they earn. For most, this means
treating them like a spoiled and slightly retarded six-year-old. For the
odd few, it means calm and rational discussion. It is _entirely_ up to
the Christian how he is treated in HolySmoke." - KB
"You go out of your way to insist that atheism is a religion, which can
be for no purpose but to inflict your personal mindset on those who are
not so afflicted." - KB
"If you believe it, you don't know it. If you know it, you don't need
to believe it. Since you obviously haven't a clue one way or the other,
why should anyone listen to what you say?" - KB
"As another opined, isn't it odd that miracles no longer happen now that
we have the technology to record them?" - KB
"Okay, fine. But how much of it is "God's truth", and how much is mere
fairy tale or absolute bulltwaddle? Was there really a global flood?
No? Then is the Bible is lying to us, or is God? Oh, there was a global
flood? Then the lack of supporting evidence means that God is lying to
us, by intentionally destroying or hiding that evidence, right? Hello?"
- KB
"They are Christians of Borg, they have been assimilated. They will
speak no opinions of their own, only those approved by the Christian Borg
Collective. To think for oneself is to risk eternal punishment." - Thomas
Mccullock
"No shit, Sherlock. But that isn't the case, and there are plenty (too
many) heterosexual breeders in this world that are keeping this planet
(over)populated. What does it matter if a small percentage of the world's
population isn't reproducing? Goat knows we don't need any more people
breeding like rabbits in this world..." - Drew Webber
"Remember the man arrested in the Florida restaurant? He was praying that
his noodles would stop multiplying, but a Satan-powered JFK flew out of
the stratosphere on a bear that couldn't catch fish and arrested him.
MISTER Kissinger stood on a milk crate of flaming foetuses and tried to
prove it with every opening bud, but the solid hydrogen mentioned in Luke
16:31 destroyed his hard disk fourteen days later and erased the Culinary
History of Aviation. He goes on trial December 1." - Jason Rosendale
"First off I am not religious, I am a Christian. Second I did not give up
on it, I refused to take part in a mock trail of God." - Kenneth Mcabee
"What your missing David, is the most bible believing Christains do not
question God. Why does he require blood for the forgiveness of sin? What
does it matter? It does, the bible says it, we believe it." - KM
"You still haven'g gotten have you? Someone who believes in the Bible
also believes that you do not need evidence, but rather faith." - KM
"First if the Christians were doing thier job right noone would die never
hearing the "Good News". If they did not hearing then by my bible I have
to say that they are condemned. And that we the Christians did not do as
we were commanded." - KM
"you a answer on your question simply due to the fact that I am not God,
and do not have the capability to punish my kids for eternity. I cannot
give you an answer, I do not know what I would do if I could punish them
for eternity." - KM
"Just because I am willing to debate Christianity does not mean that I am
here to learn any truth contrary to my beliefs." - KM
"Let me put it this way, even if I agreed with your statement that God is
an unrepentant barbarian, he is still God. I still have the choice to
make, either I believe in him and go to heaven, or I don't and go to
hell. With those two choice, I don't care if God is the most hateful
thing ever created, I still would not want to go to hell, and I would
still believe in him." - KM
"I will not play D&D anymore because of the dieties and demigods. I do
however keep the game around because from time to time I need information
out of them to prove a point. I will play doom and other games like that
because to me I'm just killing bytes on the computer, and that is really
not killing. Nor does it make me want to kill, I see it as it was made,
a
contest to be one or lost. Besides, what could be bad about blowing away
demons?" - KM
"God will be coming soon. He will tryumph over any gods that other people
have made. Like the god of money...etc. In the end you will be judged by
him. He will make you accountable for every thing you did." - Alex Sousa
"You can't blame them. They can't think. They are a result of a
mechanistic organization of matter. They don't have thoughts any more
than a computer has thoughts. Their "thoughts" are nothing but
mechanistic processes. Hmmm, they probably don't even have conciseness."
- Andrew Cummins, refering to non-Christians.
"Creationists do not deny any directly observed phenomena." - AC
"Hitler believed in big government. Hitler didn't believe that human
life had inherent value, thus he supported such things as abortion.
Considering many factors, Hitler seems a lot like a modern American
liberal." - AC
"Don't be a liberal dupe. Even most heterosexuals with AIDS 'earned'
it... but it's still is a fag disease." - AC[ellipse in original]
"Then maybe the poor should either avoid being poor or avoid behaving in
a way that makes them feel a need to avoid responsibility with something
they can't afford." - AC
"She prayed and asked (*demanded* - she's a tough lady) for the life of
this little one back. After 15 minutes or so a crowd was gathered (you
can picture it) and she saw some police out of the corner of her eye
starting to approach. But the people pressed around her so, that the
police couldn't get through. After a half hour or more of continuing to
pray the baby gave a sneeze and came back to life." - Peter Sawyer
"That's a lot better than denying the Truth just because you're afraid of
it. The more I read from you and the others like you in this echo, the
more I know my faith is true. Thanks." - Tony Grisier
"Didn't you know that *we* are Satan?" - Gord Magill
"I know this is only second hand, but our local TV news did a two or
three part series on parents killing their own children. The incident in
Union was not as isolated as we would like to think and it may be a good
working hypothosis. I don't remember the statistics that they gave, but
the point was that the rate has been on a marked increase, beginning in
the mid 70s. Guess when Roe v. Wade came down. The news didn't provide
the corellation, history did. Now, I realize that its easy to lie with
statistics. Even when you have a corellation, that doesn't prove a
hypthosis, it merely supports it. If I can find the numbers I'll post
them soy we don't have to go on just my remembrance of the local news."
-
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.au
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:42:22
EID:8bef 20593540
MSGID: 1:250/820 009fe28a
David Hatfield
"I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have any rights and
i never will." - Don Ward
"What percenatge of Muslems worship Islam?" - DW
"Well the hemophiliacs, are mostly drug abusers who will sell their body
or blood for their addiction, or while hyped up they share needles to
get-off. What would you expect from a drug addict?" - DW
"Heres my judgment ,you are a desolate little old man who's afraid to
leave your little xt/pc. I get on this "echo" because of all the fools
on it, but you live on this "echo"." - DW
"I think your under a lot of "STRESS". Maybe you need an _assistant
moderator_, one that would make this _echo_ appeal to all types of
people. Therefore I'll make a "kind" gesture of you letting me run this
bias _echo_ for a month or so. So I can help you achieve a respectable
"echo", for the good of all." - DW
"Adults do not allow others to speak their own minds in any fashon they
want, Ive not seen that anywhere. Adults do let Children ( somewhat)
learn the language but it has appeared to me thru many of your post that
you do have a good sense of language so I can only presume that you are
very much an adult." - John Reynolds
"... "How talk you, yes. That, do we. Idiot, fucking, you are.": Yoda"
- Tagline
"Considering the Christian views on abortion and assisted suicide, my
guess is that once you accept this "gift" of eternal life, you can never
give it back. Seems like you might be making a mistake that could
literally haunt you forever by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal
lord and saviour, especially since Christians seem to think that just
anything that is fun to do is a sin." - "Captain Fuck"/Dan Baldwin/"Dr.
James Robertson"
"Why feel the need to declare yourself a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a
Pagan, Wiccan, Stargoatian, or what have you? What is wrong with just
being yourself? One thing I do not belive is that any cosmic deity is
going to send me to eternal suffering because I don't believe certain
things. I just can't imagine anything intelligent enough to create life,
if that is in fact the way it happened, having such primitive feelings
about it. Besides, suffering is a relative thing. Stick my hand in a fire
for one minute and I may scream in agony, but leave it in there for a
hundred years and see if I give a shit, never mind a million years or
infinity." -CF/DB/DJR
"`Aboard ship take thou the SEED of life' I am refering to the SEED of
all life of any species. Only one thing did NOAH need to take two of, on
the ARK, of EVERY living creature that walked upon the EARTH, and would
easily be able to do so with the technology of the -GODS-. Also buy
taking the SEED of life of every living creature he could get two of each
on that small ARK. The SEED of life being refered to is, GENES. The GENES
of a male and female of every creature would have accomplished the task
nicely, would it not? With this you no longer have an argument of not
enough room to house two of every creature, food to feed them for more
than 6 months, etc...." - Barry "Suspended Animation" Laminack
"He will not be there for you. If you have not accepted his lordship
over your life, then you are at war with him and he is at war with you.
That is not to say that he is not willing to forgive, but to stand in the
place of God's judgement is a fearful place to be. What is right and
wrong? Where does the idea come from? If you go by feelings, your
feelings change from day to day. Do your morals change from day to day?
Without God there is no right and wrong. There must be a reference point
outside of yourself upon which to base your value judgements. What is
your reference point? Without one you are incapable of determining for
yourself what is right and what is wrong." - Unknown fundi
Any evidence I have would be meaningless, because your point of view
would prevent the obvious conclusion. I cannot *prove* to you the
existence of God just as you cannot prove to me the non-existence of God.
God has proven himself to me through the power he has shown in changing
my life. Only the power of God can change a man's life and set him free
from the burden of sin. Not that any Christian will ever be sinless, but
the assurance of knowing the the penalty for your sin has been erased
changes your life completely. I cannot prove to you the existence of
God, but if you accept what he says about himself and about you in his
Word the Bible, then everything makes complete sense." - Timothy Hartley
"A recent court case acquitted Donald Napora of endangering the lives of
the public by knowingly having unprotected anal intercourse (otherwise
known as sodomy), while knowing he was HIV positive. Sodomy, once a crime
against the state, is now not only tolerated and accepted, but actually
promoted in many of our public school sex education programs, in spite of
the fact that it is the leading cause of infection of the AIDS virus. For
a society that is as safety conscious as any in the world, this is a
gross contradiction. Does this bother you?" - Alan Kern
"Christians envying Pagans and wiccans? There's nothing to envy. Your god
was defeated by the blood of Jesus 2000 years ago, and he's only living
on borrowed time. You're following a loser, the biggest one in history of
the universe." - AK
"Science/archeology have often, and still do change their conclusions as
they continue to find new evidence." - AK
"Is AIDS a plague sent by God to judge homosexuals? "Likewise also the
men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one
another, men with men committing what is shameful, and recieving in
themselves the penalty of their error which was due"Rom.1:27 You don't
have to be a brain surgeon to figure these things out. Why is it only the
Christians who can discern the signs of the times? Because they have the
mind of Christ, and unbelievers have only their own." - AK-47
"And, BTW, if you'll read that bible you're always thumping, you'll find
that Jesus was a liberal. He hung around with poor people and social
outcasts, he helped the poor, he said that it's easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven.
But then again, you have your head so far up your ass that you don't
notice these things." - Quentin Fai
"I detect the pot calling the fridge black. If there's anyone who's been
soundly disemboweled, it's you. You seem to be too stupid to notice,
though." - QF
"When Jesus comes again, and I believe it will be soon, there will be no
need for Democrats, Republicans or political representatives whatsoever.
Not only this, but the Constitution/Civil Rights Amendments and othersuch
will be out of place as well. For we who are his children will live
under the rule of a true Theocracy. We will be his people, and he will be
our God. And those who have chosen to reject God/Christ won't be around
anymore to pester those who ARE God's chosen people (and I do not speak
here of the Jewish nation)." - Tenna Draper
"Loose your fuckin' quote box or I'll rip yer head off with my
pitchfork." - Satan
"No one on this earth is starving to death EXCEPT by choice and
Lazyness." - Titus Ashbury
"Why does the earth always take 24 hours to get around the sun? Who
controls this?" - Gary Hull
"There is a Bibical principle that basically says that a Father who loves
his children will discipline that Child. I personally have not had to
spank my children very often. However this world if full of children and
now adults that have not been disciplined. We see the results, they do
not know how to live at peace with one another. They have no direction
and purpose in their lives... In short the lack of discipline is a root
problem many other social ills" - GH
"All are Slaves to God.. some know it, some dont." - Pratap Derrick
"...I do think that Christians are functionally illiterate or amoral.
Why? Because if you read your own damn holy book, and were a decent
person, you would reject it out of hand. Therefore, Christians (1) never
read the Bible, (2) can't understand what they read, or (3) are
indecent." - John McHenry
"The thoughtless are rarely wordless." - Tagline
Darwin of Borg: "Creationism is irrelevant. Evolution is inevitable.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." - honge@creighton.edu
"Yes, even babies are born with aids. The innocent suffer all over the
world along with the guilty. If you knew the Bible you would know why."
-
David Lewellyn
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
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PATH: 250/820 501 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.av
|Date: 25 Feb 96 06:44:24
EID:8aaf 20593580
MSGID: 1:250/820 00a01242
"You christians are without a doubt the stupidest and, more
importantly, the PETTYEST people on the face of the earth." - Unknown
(From Usenet)
"I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to particularly
lack respect for men and thereby depart from God even further than do
pagan men." - Jim Staal
"While the lazy and the slow (for the most part) seem comfortable with
literalism, the more intelligent theists are constantly performing mental
gymnastics to maintain credibility for their beloved myths. They've
formed an uneasy alliance between the space age and the stone age." - Rob
Burcham
"Do you now know why we don't eat pork. Its what distinguishes us from
people like you. The flesh contains microbes that invades your brain
cells and couses such twisting of the mind as one can see from the
language used above. This is how the mind reacts to such desieses. Some
people get infected and some don't. I think David Rice and Sean
McCullough are effected with the desiese too." - Shabeir Khan
_\/_
. / \ .
|\| (o)(o) |/|
-------.OOOo--oo--oOOO.-------
| New World Order ID |
| ID #666 |
| 666 N Babylonian Dr |
----------------Oooo.---------
.oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)
- paul@terrabit.mn.org
"now, I wash my hands of you since I have no further need nor desire to
read the lying babblings of a twisted little fuckhead." - Karl Schneider
"This seems to be a funny debate for a Religous Conference. Do y'all
need prayin' for? Perhaps you need a demon cast out? Hmm?" - Clayton
Davis
"Jesus was taken down from the cross and rose from the grave on the third
day. His Spirit entered earth on the day of Pentacost. That Spirit
lives in me. Jesus and I have the same identity, hence the name
CHRISTAIN. You may use whatever words you wish. Saying them detracts
not one whit from the truth. And whenever we say it about you,
namecalling is your response. I am what God says I am. Your believing
he exists does not bother me. But it gives you great grief. Your worst
fear is that my faith is in things that are the truth. Do not run from
Jesus. Run to Him. He is the one who cares. I could not care less
about you." - CD
"As for why you would fear homosexuals, here are some common reasons. 1.
One is afraid of the prospect of enduring a sexual overture of a nature
one finds repellent. 2. One is afraid that homosexuality is a plot to
destroy all decency and "family values". 3. One is afraid that ones
offspring might choose to go that way if given the option. 4. One is
afraid that oneself might choose to go that way if given the option. 5.
One is afraid that giant flaming meteors might descend on one's head
because of the behavior of one's neighbours. 6. One is afraid that
everyone might choose to abandon reproduction, leading to the extinction
of the human race. 7. One is afraid that people won't be willing choose
one's virgin daughters over oneself when they feel like gang-raping
somebody."- David Johnston
"Sudden prayers make God jump." - Ivan Schaffel's origin line
"For the last time: Omnipotence does not include the ability to do th[e]
logically impossible." - Michael Hardly
"I personally would prefer to see the human race go via nuclear war than
by the takeover of homosexuality... then I wouldn't have to be witness to
this erosion of our society that is now occuring." - George Pope
"Famous last words of Jesus Christ: Father, beam me up." - Erik Harris
"Skylab Died For Your Sins." - Paul Feonic
"If ONE; yes One of the Non-believers has the faith of a mustard seed.
He would wipe out their hunger!" - Jerry "cocksucker" Wilcox
"Pat Robertson is no more a profit than I am." - J"C"W
"So you are saying that EVERY human being that believes in the Bible are
not thinkers? I think not!" - J"C"W
"I tried thinking before, and I almost fell into the same mess YOU are
now in." - Joanna Amren
"Dinosaur bones, Noah's ark - it WAS found, and there is a big cover-up
concerning it... What other proof do you need?" - JA
"How about the masses killed by the godless following the logical
conclusions of atheism?" - Glen Davis
"Clearly, anything that "demonstrably disagrees with reality" cannot be
from God, and therefore should be discarded." - Rick Mcfarlane
"You're too stupid to be a creationist." - Dave Horn
"In Jesus Christ name I bind all evil sprits off of this echo NOW." -
Steve Wallis
"The stars are God's Angels," - SW
"In Christ's name I can drink any deadly thing and it wont hurt me(it's
about faith and trust)" - SW
"Oh you! You followers of sin! Satan has you all under his control and
the only salvation is through Jesus Christ! Do YOU want to burn and
suffer in hell? Do you want to be fried to a crisp for eternity?
Are you scared yet? Good, because THAT is what's going to happen to you
if you do not accept Jesus Christ into your heart and believe in the
King James authorised version of the Bible!" - "Phill Mcrevis"
"I would like to say that it is good that Jesus died for our sins and I
am
so glad he did!" - PM
"You're doing it to yourself and don't even realize it. Not only are you
an asshole, you are an idiot. And idiotic assholes are a dime a dozen on
this planet. You are hardly special, and your attempts at "intelligence"
and "wit" are painful to anyone who is actually capable of such things.
I
suggest you grow up. Your attitude and statements here in the echo show
that while you may be phsyically an adult, psychologically, you are a
three year ol