God Damned Fundies!
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 26 Feb 96 23:58:00
EID:7a8d 205abf40
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b4
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> However, you also seem to think that if a God *did* exist, the universe
MH> would be completely man-centered.
And where, pray tell, did I get that notion?
MH> You, among others, have said that you
MH> take the fact that much of the universe appears to be lifeless, and
has
MH> little direct effect on us, to be evidence that it was not designed.
You, among others, have said that this 'life sustaining'
universe is indicative of a creator. I'm merely pointing
out that nearly all of the universe is hostile to life.
God has created a giant poisonous mushroom with only a
minuscule edible portion.
MH> To which I say: Yes, the universe is much more vast than it needs to
be
MH> for our direct benefit. So what?
MH>
MH> And that's where egotism comes in -- why should you assume that God,
if
MH> God existed, would NOT have created a vast universe, for reasons that
MH> may have nothing to do with humanity whatsoever?
Let me get this straight: I don't think there's a god, but
if I did, I would have a huge ego for thinking he created the
entire universe for our benefit? Is that like...'I don't
think JFK's the Anti-Christ, but if I did, I'd be a nutcase
living in Alaska'?
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Astronomer: A night watchman
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 27 Feb 96 00:37:00
EID:57ea 205b04a0
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b5
TID: GE 1.11+
AS> So if He were just PLAYING the part
AS> of the OT Jehovah, then He certainly put His own spin on the part.
He not
AS> only took the part, but extended and built upon it, to the point where
AS> most Jews did not agree He WAS a good imitation.
And since he didn't become a king and drive out the Roman
invaders, most Jews did not agree he was a good messiah either.
AS> True, Buddhist monks have set themselves on fire---although as I
AS> remember it, it was more of a political plea for nonviolence and a
stop to
AS> war, rather than following any true religious doctrine of Buddha (as
in
AS> anything applying to the spiritual side of life, although certainly
AS> nonviolence is a doctrine of Buddha's).
The Buddhist monks demonstrate that the ultimate sacrifice
doesn't require divinity, merely a certain frame of mind.
Willingly going to your death for the greater good is not
exclusively messianic.
AS> But notice; Jesus was content to
AS> be led to the slaughter, as it were, but He didn't hang HIMSELF.
Yes, his purported sacrifice was not as overtly impressive
as the monks, but adequate for martyrdom nonetheless.
AS> from MY point of view, I see something rather ironic. In practically
every
AS> other mythology, and in most of my religion, God judges man. This is
the
AS> only regligous story I can think of where a God submitted to the judgement
AS> of Man. No other god played so magnificently fair with mankind.
Or a man who thought he was God was executed for sedition.
And an elaborate myth was born from that simple act.
AS> Rob, if a slave had accidentally jostled the wife of the slaveowner
too
AS> hard, and she miscarried as a result, do you REALLY think that the
slave
AS> wouldn't be fearful for his life?
Oh sure. Assuming the slaveowner and his wife WANT a baby.
It's not the PRESENT fetus that has great value and importance.
It's the FUTURE baby. And that's the point that is so
difficult to convey to pro-lifers. They even use FUTURE
terminology (baby, child) in describing what is PRESENTLY a
fetus.
AS> Funny thing is, I have more second thoughts afterwards. Far afterwards.
---------------------------------
AS> But yeah, part of me wonders
AS> if I am a murderer, or an accomplice to murder.
You assisted in removing a fetus from her body. It was not
a baby. It was not a child. It was a fetus.
AS> Yes. Which is not uncommon in that time. Remember the woman who came
up to
AS> him, the Gentile woman, and begged a miracle, when He said it was not
AS> fitting that the dogs should eat from the table---and she answered
that
AS> even dogs eat from the scraps under the table?
So, was Jesus anti-Gentile?
AS> But notice that MUCH of the pattern is repeated, in mind-numbing
AS> regularity, in culture after culture, as Campbell showed in his HERO
OF A
AS> THOUSAND FACES. The dying god who is resurrected is done in culture
after
AS> culture. It's as if the myths were sent to prepare us for the reality.
Or your 'reality' is just one more myth in a long line of
myths. It's all a matter of interpretation, Watson.
AS> other myths that fit the pattern happened long ago and far away in
a
AS> mythical golden age, but Jesus, who fulfills the pattern, exists in
a
AS> specific place and time. It's as if in Him history and myth meet...that
AS> the other myths is either our hunger for the sort of thing that Jesus
AS> fulfilled (as an adolescent yearns for sex without necessarily having
a
AS> clear conception of it) or the myths, many of which are beautiful in
their
AS> own way, were sent from God ("every good and perfect thing comes from
AS> God") to prepare us for the reality.
You're overlooking another very obvious posssibility: myths
are an integral part of being human. The myriad of myths
among diverse cultures are not any sort of 'preparation' for
the real thing, but simply the way different cultures have
chosen to express their intrinsic need for myths.
BTW, every culture in every age has viewed IT'S myth as the
'real thing'. You and your millions of fellow Christians
are simply upholding the tradition of 'true believers'.
AS> I'm not so sure. By linking His message to a particular people, He
used
AS> them as a template to develop His word, to saturate one people with
His
AS> message, to see what would happen.
God's not WordPerfect. He don't need no stiinkin template!
AS> But not bad, Rob. It MIGHT have been a look alike brother. It doesn't
AS> explain the Ascension or some of the other details, but you can say
that
AS> was added later. But what happened to the lookalike?
He left town? Seriously, there may have been a series of
events (natural events) that put Jesus' followers into a
frenzy. The stage was set, they were already fanatics
and if one or two unexplained things happened, they were
primed to go right over the edge.
As an example: My nephew had recently joined an Assembly
of God church. These people were not Methodists, they got
EXCITED about things! One evening, there was an explosion
at a nearby army amunition plant. Within minutes, one of
my nephew's newfound bible buddies was at the door announcing
the second coming of Christ (the eastern sky was all lit up
in pretty colors). An unusual (but natural event) interpreted
as something supernatural by a fanatic.
AS> Yes. You feel about dieties as I do about Grigor-Scott's Illuminati.
AS> That's okay. But just be open to the possibility that those who talk
of
AS> transcendent experiences might actually be describing something real.
Many of them probably ARE describing something real. Something
that is really going on in their brains. Try telling a
schizophrenic that the voices aren't real.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 28 Feb 96 23:14:00
EID:7a8d 205cb9c0
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b6
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> Assuming a God exists, WHY do you assume that His creation would have
MH> to be either teeming with life, or centered around us? Why do you limit
MH> this hypothetical God to creating what is only of utilitarian purpose?
Boy, you theists have done an about face. You've gone from
fancying yourself as the 'center of creation' to 'an anomaly
in the fabric of space'. Was that bit of wisdom gleaned from
scripture or was it science that turned the tide?
MH> Who are you to insist he can't create beauty for beauty's sake? Who
are
MH> you to assume there is no use for the rest of the universe just because
MH> *you* don't see a use for it?
Bits of the universe may be quite useful for other lifeforms
scattered about out there. But given the scale of things,
nearly all of it is useless to us.
MH> You also forget the question of scale. To an infinite God, a universe
MH> 10 microns across and one 10 exquillion light years across are pretty
MH> much the same. The vastness of space and the unfathomable billions
of
MH> years it has existed may boggle our minds, but to an infinite and
MH> eternal creator, they might as well be 10 miles and 15 years.
With the passage of time and the advancements of science, God
just keeps getting bigger and bigger. He's gone from the
immediate tribe to the tops of mountains to the sea to the
Earth to the sky to the ends of the universe. If someday it's
discovered that this is but one universe out of billions, will
God only retain the copyright to THIS one or will he be granted
Lordship over them all? Given his history of expansionism, I
suspect the latter.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: flood
|Date: 28 Feb 96 23:41:00
EID:b8af 205cbd20
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b7
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> RB> You are correct. It is evidence that they 'believed'. Some
MH> RB> people 'believe' they've been abducted by aliens. Are you willing
MH> RB> to accept THEIR beliefs?
MH>
MH> Would people who believe this willingly die for refusing to recant
that
MH> belief?
Many people have willingly died for their convictions. Given
the inherent zealotry of religion, it's no surprise that it
has it's share of martyrs.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.3H1e
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 28 Feb 96 23:48:00
EID:5e14 205cbe00
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b8
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> Our newspaper -- before I came to work for it -- once ran this headline
MH> over a story about a man who had waged a letter-writing campaign for
MH> some cause or other:
MH>
MH> Penis mightier than sword
:) Was it a rapier?
MH> This was in the days of hot type, and someone obviously forgot the
MH> space.
That's still long after the apprenticeship of Don Martin.
He was the typesetter on Gutenberg's first edition.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:08:34
EID:e2fe 205c3900
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Fredric Rice > J.J. Hitt : Jim Staal
jjh> I called 1-800-GO-PAT-GO, repeatedly.
> "I don't know. This is a support line."
FR> What the Goddess Hel does the Religious Reich need with a "support
FR> line?" What kind of information are they expecting to give out? Or
is
FR> it a line which takes donations?
What scares me is the concept of a huge group hug with Pat and the
rest of the wallet-lifters. Maybe they all sit in a circle and say:
"Hi, my name is Pat, and I'm a Republican . . . "
"Hi, Pat . . . "
Etc. Maybe the Party has a 12-step program or something there . . .
};)
... You may be a monster truck pagan if your wand doubles as a tire gauge.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:31:59
EID:d850 205c43e0
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Kenneth Cavness > Steve Wallis : Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, Steve Wallis said to Sue Armstrong:
SW> May God Almighty surround you Sue with a hedge of His angelic Host to
SW> protect you and guide you into a full knowledge of the truth. Have a
KC> And if she wants a shrubbery? A nice two-tiered one for a good
KC> effect?
KC> What then, eh Steve? WHAT THEN?!
Maybe Steve has fallen from the fold and is no longer a Knight who
says Kni. Ever consider that? Maybe he's now a Knight who says
Ecky Ecky Ecky Ecky Ecky Zoom-New-Womba . . . };)
... My forefathers went to Hell & all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Blinded me with science..
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:22:31
EID:8089 205c3ac0
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Kenneth Cavness > Michael Hardy : Re: Blinded me with science..
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, Michael Hardy said to John Prewett:
-=> Quoting John Prewett to Michael Hardy <=-
KC> Ah, a lovefest. It's so cute to watch one infant gurgle with another.
KC> It of course raises the famous question: if two minors are having
KC> sex, are they both committing statutory rape?
Don't get too involved. We are keeping the pick of the litter and
drowning the rest. };)
JP> So we agree asking heathens for evidence is a waste of time. Yes ?
MH> Of course. Only theists have to actually back up their claims.
KC> On the specific, positivist claim that "There is a [gG]od", yes, they
KC> do. It's a very simple and very logical elementary debate rule.
My favorite reaction to this sort of question was: Oh, there has to
be a God . . . anyone I'd talk to during orgasm has to exist . . .
};)
JP> [and it's fun watching them adamantly declare
JP> that atheist/heathens have no standards]
MH> And lately, deny that they admitted it. :D
KC> I wasn't aware that I had no standards. Thanks for letting me know.
I wasn't aware that we'd said we had no standards. We might have
been lying, and actually do have them. Anyone with no standards
would lie like shit through a goose. I bet we were lying. I bet
we do have standards. Sometimes I really hate us.
KC> Do you know where Pat Robertson is? I think I'd like to buy some
KC> standards from the 700 club. Or maybe Pat Buchanan.. or -OO!- Jimmy
KC> Swaggart? Oral Roberts? Anselm of Canterbury [how did that sneak in?]
I happen to know that Jim Baker has standards that he isn't using,
and I bet you could get them real cheap, depending on how friendly
you were . . .
... You may be a monster truck pagan if your Yule log reads `BF Goodrich.'
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: FOF "hate" 3
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:30:50
EID:943b 205c3bc0
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/ |||| |||
Elliott Finesse > Michael Hardy : Re: FOF "hate" 3
EF> In a message dated 02-24-96 Karen Davis wrote to Michael Hardy:
EF> Try Mike, try to picture the scene:
<<>>
I applaud you sir. Well done. Now let's see what kind of a
heartless bastard he really is. I bet he pulls the "well,
atrocities are common in times of war" routine.
My hat's off to you. If you have no problem with it, may I save
that to a file and show others? It makes the whole issue very
graphic.
... "At birth we woke to dream in this world between." -Kan'ami Kiyotsugu
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:36:57
EID:6684 205c4480
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/ |||| |||
Fredric Rice > Jim Staal : Staal shows his colon...
NS> It's obvious from your post that you haven't got a clue about
NS> anything that Pagan families would do. And, talk about the niceness
js> I was under the assumption that pagans
js> didn't have families, but rather flocks....
No, loons have flocks, as do ministers. (Oh no, a redundancy!) You
didn't know this?
FR> That's because your cult masters want to keep you ignorant,Mark, of
FR> life-affirming religions. Otherwise your death cult would drop ever
FR> more quickly in club membership.
js> .....Uh huuh huh, My name's Fred...I'm one of the
js> intelligent gorillas please don't feed me!
Here we see Jim aspire to greatness . . .
FR> Your hatred of women and your bigotry against Pagan women is ugly,
FR> Jim. It's also typically Christian, sadly.
Now, don't be too harsh on Jim. He's insecure. He hates Pagan
women because they're more manly than he is, stronger than he is,
more intelligent than he is (actually, my pet hampsters are more
intelligent, but that's another discussion entirely!), and they get
to have free will as well as other fun things such as nakedness in
church, sexual freedom, etc., whereas he has to suffer under the yolk
of Wilbur and his `living-dead god'.
I bet Pagan women even have bigger penises than Jim, but don't
quote me on it . . . }:)
... Vaginas bother me in the way that spiders bother some people.-Boy George
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 29 Feb 96 08:00:59
EID:8165 205d4000
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80033
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302cc
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
George Rudzinski wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
GR> I can type, why point and click?
GR> Windoze is a program for idiots.
Funny...that is what our office help says about Mac-In-The-Box. :)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Buchanan Bashing!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 08:01:55
EID:1492 205d4020
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80034
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302ca
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
George Rudzinski wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
GR> Hell! I contributed to Pat's campaign. With Pat as a candidate,
GR> Clinton wins, and Congress is once again Democratic.
Yeah...but you don't have to throw good money away to do it. Pat's own
mouth will be his downfall...as it has been in the past.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 29 Feb 96 13:39:13
EID:6f74 205d6ce0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3135acb8
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302c9
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and George were killing time yakking about Jim Staal:
MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a weakened
MS> body, Pneumonia.
LB> I'm sorry to hear that, Mark. Please pass on my condolences to Jim
--
LB> and to you as well.
GR> Gee! Like he is experiencing something new on earth?
*shrug* There are a lot of things that happen frequently that I am as sorry
to
hear the 1000th time it happens as I am the first time -- I wasn't expressing
SHOCK, now was I? The father has been ill for some time, and they have
expressed difficulty with his poor health and decline, and even though this
means that they will no longer have to deal with that, it can still be hard
to
deal with it finally being over.
And in any event it's the first time it's happened to *them*.
GR> The man croaked like we are all going to. I have it stipulated in my
GR> will that when I die there is to be no funeral. That is called being
a
GR> prick from the grave.
Not exactly -- funerals can be extremely expensive. If there are those
who
desire some sort of formal acknowledgement of your death (and funerals aren't
FOR you, they are for those who need closure), the money can be donated
in
your name to a charity of your choice, given to set up a scholarship fund,
or what-have-you. Or just ask everyone who might be so inclined to get
together at your favorite restaurant and have one last night on the town
in
your memory. :)
GR> And Mark isn't being very honest. They let him die. Pneumonia is
GR> treatable. I'm glad they wised up and let him die, but why let him
GR> suffer until he contracted pneumonia and then suddenly withold
GR> treatment?
You'll have to take that up with them. I don't know enough of the details
to
comment on it.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Stipulation #1: There will be no stipulations
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 13:35:15
EID:6321 205d6c60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3135acb9
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Don and Joanna were killing time yakking about URL!:
-> JA> I still insist that I am not an idiot.:) I could have JA>
-> been...then...but not now. Find a differnt person to pick on.
-> Maintain your silence and you shall get your wish.
JA> Nope, sorry, no can do. You see, i enjoy Holysmoke too much for
JA> that. So I'll just be waiting around for my chance to jump in
JA> again. Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used
to
JA> be. Do ya think any one would be interested? nah...probably not.
JA> Myabe you're right. Guess I'll just read...not write.;)
Joanna -- I'm interested. :) And glad to see you back. In what way have
you
changed? Catch us up on what's been happening in your life.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Polka-dot?" "If you insist..."
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:740b 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org db3daeba
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "Evidence"
PS> AM> terms for producing evidence are a one way street. That this is
a
PS> AM> religeous debate echo is a misnomer, its really a Christain
PS> AM> bashing echo.
PS>Point of order: As you may or may not have seen, we bash some pagans,
PS>Satanists, an occasional Muslim, and even atheists and agnostics. Don't
PS>try to play the "pity me, pity me" game. Besides, doesn't your holy book
PS>say that you're blessed for being "persecuted"?
I guess that it isn't 'real true bashing'(tm) when you chase me around
the block demanding evidence of 'magick'. Ah, well. maybe it would
look more like 'real true bashing'(tm) if I sulked about not having a
good answer.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * At such times, the wise cat retires to meditate.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:373a 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ad7d8407
RJ> DW> 16 Feb 96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael Hardy:
RJ> KW> much self respect to vote for any of the republicans. Hell, the
last
RJ> KW> time I voted for a repulican't was when Ford ran.
RJ> That could make her as young as 38. I've seen plenty of
RJ> women that age I'd hardly consider "middle-age mommies". };->
Not until this spring. I'm currently 37.
RJ> DW> "Middle aged mommy type" my ass. You're ancient. :P
RJ> Uh, I believe they prefer to be called "crones".
;) With us, age *is* status.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Atheist reaching orgasm: Oh chance! Ahhh, random!! Yes!!!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Buttpimple Satanist FAILS
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:c762 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 672278ce
JH> A>> Anyway, in this instance I employed summoning to damage
JH> A>> J.J. (take another) Hitt.
JH> JH>> Oh! Oh! I'm damaged!
JH> PS> He says that he employed summoning, J.J. Did you see any little
JH> PS> things with horns and wings appear out of nowhere at you?
JH> I'm calling from Texas, Insect Capital of the Universe. If there
JH> had been such critters they wouldn't have been noticed.
So that's what happened. The roaches got his demon.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:d4bb 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d45e3fb5
SA>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Terry Liberty-parker <=-
SA> KW> Terry, dear, if you are trying to be bitchy, you've missed the boat.
SA> KW> This is how it's done:
SA> (etc)
SA> Katherine, that was wonderful! I only hope that I can achieve that
SA>level of bitchiness someday. Anyone who thinks that Holysmoke is not
SA>educational is sadly mistaken .
Thank you, Sue. I'm sure that you could do equally as well, if not
better, if you want to. I have never understood why men think that I
should be insulted by being called a bitch. Someday, I hope to achieve
the status of 'Grand Bitch'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Bacteria is the only culture some people will ever have.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: HS WEB PAGE
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:498a 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 87d5fc95
KD>On (19 Feb 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> KW> Motrin can cause liver damage in large doses. In my case, that
was
KD> KW> what was behind the hike in liver enzymes. Did your doctor have
KD> KW> anything to tell you?
KD>I hate to admit it, but I've not consulted a doctor specifically about
KD>it. Money for real medical care just isn't there right now, we have to
KD>hold out for urgent problems. I don't take large doses of Ibuprofen -
a
KD>couple of times a month I'll take 2 for a headache.
Ah, yes. Our wonderful health care system. :\
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...It's 10:00pm-Do you even know WHAT your children are?
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Question
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:e569 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cbb46575
SA>Is this your latest crusade? Did the missing persons project
SA>pan out, or do you find that locating discrimination is more
SA>important than locating children?
SA>We're all purple, George. We just didn't think you'd believe it.
SA> -Styx
I am not either purple, Styx. I am a proud pale blue Scottish person.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Mary used a turkey baster.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:ee2b 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 78ee1df6
JA>-> ~*~ Don't take me for an idiot...please...because I am NOT an idiot.
JA>-> - Joanna Amren (Defending Christanic Creationism myths)
JA>Okay...I have to reply to this. I've been reading these messages for
JA>days now, looking for something to reply to.:) But I hadn't actually
JA>expected anyone to remember me! Gee how sweet of you!
JA>I still insist that I am not an idiot.:) I could have been...then...but
JA>not now. Find a differnt person to pick on.
Hi, Joanna.
Good to see you back. If you have IRC access, a lot of us can be found
on USEnet #holysmoke in the evening.
And yes, you are remembered.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Oh, no! The creationists are mutating!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Tom Hart
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:50:45
EID:d152 205c6640
MH@> ATHEIST: There's no evidence there was a global flood.
MH@> THEIST: I know. The story is probably meant as a parable. Or perhaps
MH@> there was a regional flood which was global from the perspective of
the
MH@> people of the time.
MH@> ATHEIST: Bu ... bu ... but it says it was global. You have to believe
MH@> it was global.
MH@> THEIST: Not at all. We recognize that not all the Bible is literal.
And
MH@> we recognize that the limited perspective of the people of the time
MH@> plays a role in some of the language used.
MH@> ATHEIST (near tears): But ... but ... it says global. YOU HAVE TO SAY
MH@> IT'S GLOBAL! PLEASE! I don't know any other way to argue! (Sobbing)
MH@> THEIST: Obviously, it's either a metaphor or a matter of perspective.
MH@> ATHEIST: SALAD BAR!!!
Tell me, what is metaphor/perspective or not literal in your bible?
If you do not know, aren't you guessing? If you do know, how do you
know? Have you asked the author?
It would be dishonest to say a part is not literal unless you know what
the author ment. If religious text are to be reguarded as factual, why
would you say part of it isn't factual?
I find that religious people will bend (or break) text meanings to
fit their unevidenced beliefs. This is dishonest. So much for people
of religion having morals.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Religion - Answers that may never be questioned.
--- VFIDO 7.00.11{58 Days Left}
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 28 Feb 96 13:31:53
EID:db69 205c6be0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366382
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 05258276
RJ> RS> level for Buchanan, is [get this] the chairwoman of the NAAWP.
Yes
RJ> RS> you heard it here first. The National Association for the Advancement
RJ> RS> of White People.
RJ> And of course, I'm sure you know who the founder of the NAAWP
RJ> is, don't you? David Duke, who I understand, quit the KKK
RJ> because he got tired of "all the hicks with green teeth." It's
RJ> apparently his idea of a Kinder, Gentler Klan.
KS> Did you hear Chris Dodd's comment?..."The only difference between
KS> Buchanan supporters and skinheads is hair..."
Didn't hear that one, but I still get a chuckle out of Molly
Ivins' bon mot about Buke's '92 GOP convention speech, "I pre-
ferred it in the original German."
... Write drunk! Edit sober.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: CONDEMNED BY PREWETT - CA
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:21
EID:9b7a 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366386
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62c74cf8
AS> Unfortunately, as is not uncommon, John is taking the precepts
AS> of some and making it a blanket statement for all. But there IS
AS> no central authority for the Church of Christ (i.e.,
AS> Cambellites) that I belong to, or for that matter, any Church of
AS> Christ. You can be disfellowshipped from a particular
AS> congregation for being disruptive, but you really can't be
AS> banned altogether.
JH> I wonder what would be considered "disruptive"... sneaking a
JH> harmonica or kazoo into a service?
Make it a kazoo! From reading "Gravity's Rainbow" I discovered
that a kazoo with a few pinholes punched into the diaphragm
makes the most aerodynamically efficient hashpipe known to
engineering. :-)
... But my assault rifle IS for sport! I use it to hunt BATF agents.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:21
EID:4687 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366387
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094261
As> Heh. I find it humorous how the whitelighters rely
as> so much on their As> Gods to protect them.
ns> It's about as funny as some insipid goat-worshiper believing he has
ns> ultimate power because he worships an artificial-entity construct.
FR>
FR> Hey! As a minister with the Restored Church of the Star Goat I take
FR> umbrage! (Er, whatever that is.) And I ain't giving it back!
FR> Take care else I'll have Assmodify to curse you. }:-}
FR>
Cool. I could use a magical disappearance of my student
loan file.
... "The shortest distance between two puns... is a straight line."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: All the Gods' Words
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:22
EID:7410 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366388
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094264
jcj> I have many texts, having majored in history.
FR>
FR> And for some reason you pretend the Soviet Union was "evil."
FR>
FR> Are you also an English major?
FR>
With a blackbelt, 140 IQ, and SEAL training...
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:22
EID:dcc9 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366389
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30a
FR> Oh? People who join the Christian cult knowing what its history has
FR> been and continue to be are in agreement with it. One doesn't join
FR> the KKK and then demand they're not racists, Eric.
No, they do. They're just lying sacks of shit when they
say it, that's all.
... Happy End Times. Regards Kortron.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:22
EID:bfff 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638a
>RB> Did you experience the white light and the tunnel?
JH> No.... the afterlife looks a lot like the set of The
JN> Honeymooners.
DR> Not like a four-star restaurant?
More sort of apres-vie.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:23
EID:6071 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638b
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337818
SQ> Salue, Fredric!
SQ> Dies solis February 25 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Norbert Sykes:
FR> Take care else I'll have Assmodify to curse you. }:-}
SQ> I got a kick out of this "curse." -My- return curse is that every
SQ> time I hear the name "Asmodeus" or read it in a book, I'm going to be
SQ> able to say "Hey, I've got a neat story to go with that." We may not
SQ> know this clown's real name, but it sure is funny to think that so
SQ> many can receive so much entertainment at his expense.
I see very few Christians who get it as bad as the Satanists
who've paraded through here. Yet you won't read any of the
fundies mentioning that.
... Send lawyers, guns and money...the shit has hit the fan.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = gotcha!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:23
EID:daae 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638c
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337912
MH>> Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
SQ> Nonsense...we just don't worship an old book that says "Run, Dick,
SQ> Run." I'm STILL out here wondering which of Mike's "rights" I violate
SQ> if I commit suicide.
You'll hurt his feelings. See, you'd be doing something that
would offend his god, and if you offend his god, you offend
him. I guess it's sort of like a Sicilian thing, huh?
And besides, why should YOU be able to do something his god
frowns on if he can't do it, too?
... That's bullshit. You're a white suburban punk--just like me.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Prewett's Christanic fantasies
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:24
EID:1ec4 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638e
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62cf8147
RJ> His home snailmail address acquired, so that printed transcripts
RJ> might be sent to his mailbox when he suddenly never posts in
RJ> HOLY_SMOKE again?
JH> That I don't have. If he ever posted it I missed it (not surprising,
JH> I delete large blocks of his messages unread).
There's only 2 of them listed in Fairbanks for '95, both
named Ann. S'pose one or both are his "sister(s)"?
... Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: BUTTPIMPLE SATANIST FAILS
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:24
EID:3d0d 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638f
JB> Well, if you start to say you've become a Buchanan supporter, *I'll*
JB> put a curse on you that will make Assmodiddly's piffling attempt on
JJ
JB> look like a reading of Dr. Seuss.
Well if yer gonna curse me with crumbling greenware, don't
bother--already got that one.
... OK, I admit it--_I_ was the one who made those crop circles in England
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Yo...
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:24
EID:2a18 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366390
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 313273c7
DW> 22 Feb 96 16:54, Dawn Kleuser wrote to J.J. Hitt:
DK> Are you some sort of Pagan Occultist? With a name like J.j.
DK> Hitt, I'd wonder.
DW> Please share with us exactly what makes you think the name "J.J. Hitt"
DW> has anything to do with "Pagan Occutism". Maybe an angel told you?
Yeah, I always thought it was a much more fitting name for
a bass player in a metal band.
... "The shortest distance between two puns... is a straight line."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:25
EID:678c 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366391
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3134895e
RB> Is that a subtle clue as to J.J.'s gender?
DM> Not really. I have a suspicion that our dear cash
DM> register repairman sees no connection between the operation
DM> and any particular gender, and I posted in that light . . .
DM> However, J.J. and I may be seeing one another May 1, so
DM> his/her secret may be out (unless I am bribed).
Marty already "outed" him.
... Amish pickup line: "Art thee up for some plowing?"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:25
EID:d711 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366392
REPLY: 1:3611/2 001b7c94
JO> For a way of background on why I want to know... A few years ago, my
JO> wife became a "Born Again Christian" and is constantly bring home crap
JO> about "hidden messages" in music, avertising, etc., etc. These brain-
You have my condolences. Seriously.
JO> wash material would have you believe that nearly every thing good in
JO> this world has satanic roots. I simply want to track down and confirm
JO> any and all information that can show that christianity was created
JO> from the same roots as all other mystical religions. I suspect that
JO> all religions have the same source and just evolved over time. When
I
JO> heard about the possible beginnings of the central cristian ritual of
JO> comminuion, I got REAL excited.
Here's the place for it. We have a few good scholars who
actually get into the real meat of investigating and debunking
all varieties of religious claims.
JO> My wife and I have agreed to disagree on our religious views, but we
JO> still read each other's material and have lively discussions. What
is
JO> really interesting, is that most of her friends simply cannot
JO> understand how I can keep from being a murderer or a rapist without
JO> having "God in my life". They say that they will be a celibration when
JO> I get "saved". I always say that I will throw them a bash when ever
JO> they give up their mystical ways and start using logic and science to
JO> guide their lives!
It's gotta be tough to have such widely divergent viewpoint
occurring after knowing someone for awhile. Still, good luck,
and keep fighting the good fight. :-)
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:26
EID:ca14 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366393
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302c6
> ! Origin: HoneyTree BBS, Misawa-shi Japan (6:731/22.0)
SA> Gracious welcome, Megan! It's not often that we have participants
SA> joining us from Japan.
GR> About as rare as a black poster on Holysmoke, eh?
It almost seems as though you lay the blame on white people
for the apparent lack of black posters. Of course, the two
Muslims we had here in the last year never mentioned their
race (not that they stuck around that long). Perhaps the
issue of religion just isn't something black participants in
Fido are interested in. I've chatted with a handful of black
people on other echoes (including FLAME, which is the net's
haven for bigotry) and in spite of potentially religiously-
colored issues like abortion and politics, I really don't
remember religion being something that wormed its way into
the discussion.
I've asked the same question (not on the echo, but to myself),
but I don't see where this echo would be particularly unaccom-
odating to blacks. There are other echoes (FLAME and CONTROV,
to name two) which have deliberately racist people, and they
still draw black posters. I really don't think the problem
with representation is the fault of the echo.
... If Jack helped you off a horse, would you help Jack off a horse?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Charles Sumner
|To: All
|Sub: Church&State Echo
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:56:06
EID:5ebc 205daf00
MSGID: 1:2613/240.0 31366745
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
The Fidonet echo called Church&State has had limited distribution for several
months. Now I am informed that it is back in full distribution. However,
I suspect that there are numerous nodes which will need to be reminded of
its availability again.
If you are on Fidonet, I would like to suggest that you ask your sysop to
obtain Church&State from the backbone.
This is a topic which has increasing importance because of the political
activity of the Religious Right. During this presidential election year
the relationship between church and state may be one of the most significant
issues of the campaign. Some authorities claim that nearly half of the
state Republican organizations are now controlled by the Christian Coalition.
Church&State is a moderated echo, and participants are requested to avoid
lengthy theological discussions and stick to the relationships which should
exist between religious groups and government.
Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
CHARLES SUMNER, Moderator; 1:2613/240 or 270; sumner@rochgte.fidonet.org
... Preserve religious liberty: keep church and state separate!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Violating physics -- use a condom. Staal
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:28:34
EID:a68d 205d7380
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 231c571b
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2fe
On 25 Feb 96, Fredric Rice wrote:
FR> to you. You fancy yourself as another Galileo.
b> Ah. That particular form of erroneous mental garbage is
b> called, by cognitive scientists, "jumping to conclusions."
FR> You're only being dishonest to yourself, John. Like any Creationist,
jb> Had you said "a" instead of "any," I'd have passed
jb> it, but since you didn't: I am not a creationist.
FR> Er, yes, you _are_ a Creationist. You adopt an occultic superstition
FR> and then cast about in desperation to find evidence you can use which
FR> could be lied about to support your delusion. You pick words and
FR> phrases you can't understand and concoct wild and elaborate fantasies
FR> and call it a "theory."
(*sigh*) As an exercise in typing, I'm going to take that apart for the
readership:
FR> Er, yes, you _are_ a Creationist.
I am not a creationist. Creationists believe God created the Universe.
I believe it appeared by itself, and thus "created" God.
FR> You adopt an occultic superstition
I adopt no superstitions, nor is any of the information I use "hidden"
("occultic"). It's all right out there available to the reading public,
in the peer-reviewed scientific literature.
FR> and then cast about in desperation to find evidence you can use which
I cast about for no evidence. The evidences that were there in my
reading --for an _entirely_unrelated_ purpose-- "forced themselves" on
me. I was NOT LOOKING for evidence usable as indications of the
existence of God, nor, since the above is true, is it thinkable that I
was or am "desperate" about any of it.
FR> could be lied about
I do not lie. There's no purpose in lying.
FR> to support your delusion.
The idea is an idea, not a delusion. In all cases, ignoring facts is
delusionary. I do not ignore facts. Creationists often ignore facts,
but since I am not a creationist, I don't have to. The facts speak for
themselves. Some people hold belief systems more powerful than facts,
such as the belief system you appear to hold....
FR> You pick words and phrases you can't understand
I understand the words and phrases I read. If I read them, and they
apply, I use them. There _are_ some things I don't (not "can't," since
there has never been anything in my history I _could_not_ understand if
I chose to try) understand, but they are all in the field of abstract,
symbol-using mathematics. I don't understand them primarily because I
don't have a translator for the symbols, and don't care to take the
years required to learn them. Heisenberg said that if a thing can't be
described in _language_ (such as English), it probably isn't worth
bothering with. I agree.
FR> and concoct wild and elaborate fantasies
I concoct no fantasies. What I say looks like fantasy to you because
you seem to have neither the background nor the brain to grasp its
meaning. I accept "elaborate," unconnected with "fantasy," since most
deeply-probing ideas require elaboration to the ignorant.
FR> and call it a "theory."
I have _NEVER_ called my God-concept, structure-from-QM experimental
information, a "theory." Please learn the difference between a "theory"
and an "hypothesis."
FR> Ask the ICR for a grant. I'm sure they'll give it to you.
Ask God for a bigger, better brain. _Maybe_ He'll give it to you, or at
least point out the way to the Library.
(Are we having fun now? No? Pity.)
The ICR __HATES__ "theistic evolutionists," as do all Fundie
Creationist Bible-Literalists, and I am an evolutionistic Theist. The
ICR would as soon give me hemlock as give me a grant.
Freddie, go on believing whatever you like, even whatever you like about
_me_, but it'd be better, in general, if you developed the capability to
read someone's text and deduce (with great mental effort, perhaps) that
they mean pretty much what they say.
I am so _far_ from what's commonly called a "creationist," that to
suggest I am one merely reveals an immense gap between your reading and
your comprehension skills, if not between your ears.
(Are we having fun now? Yes? Sure! Opportunity for creative put-down
is sometimes taken, if only for the creative writing exercise.)
ByE!
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Quantum Physics: the Dreams that Stuff is made of.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:53:54
EID:f172 205d76a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 46afe34d
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1332c99a
On 26 Feb 96, John Prewett wrote:
=> Quoting John Brawley <=-
JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
DR> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
JP> As usual, demonstrating your present
JP> complete and total willful ignorance/blindness.
Thank you. Unnecessary, but thank you.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... He who cannot harmonize, sings alone.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Lack of any Evidence whatsoever
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:54:26
EID:9781 205d76c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6f5b542e
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7aaf
On 27 Feb 96, Fredric Rice wrote:
FR> John Brawley
JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
dr> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
FR> Yeah, besides that.
Yeah, besides that.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. (Thoreau)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: address
|Date: 29 Feb 96 10:53:55
EID:9745 205d56a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932437D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
I tried to send the list via the Internet and it bounced back to me, so
obviously I don't have your correct address.
I used doosterman@voyager.com. If that's wrong, give me the right one.
If that's right, say so and I'll try again. I may have mis-typed a
character or something. (nit thet i evet makr typigephicsl erroes.)
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Blinded me with scien
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:49:00
EID:5fe7 205d9e20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932437E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Michael Hardy <=-
JP> So we agree asking heathens for evidence is a waste of time. Yes ?
JP>
MH> Of course. Only theists have to actually back up their claims.
KC>
KC> On the specific, positivist claim that "There is a [gG]od", yes, they
KC> do.
KC> It's a very simple and very logical elementary debate rule.
Many theists admit that there is no incontrovertible evidence for God.
(As do I.) And we observe that, while atheists often insist that they
just want evidence, not proof, any evidence offered which is less than
proof is dismissed. As one of my fellow theists put it, any evidence
which is not incontrovertible is swiftly controverted.
JP> [and it's fun watching them adamantly declare
JP> that atheist/heathens have no standards]
MH> And lately, deny that they admitted it. :D
KC> I wasn't aware that I had no standards. Thanks for letting me know.
I wasn't talking about you. I wasn't even aware you existed until I
downloaded this message packet. I was talking about the five on this
echo who have admitted it. (And this is, in fact, an intentional
exaggeration on my part -- what they have admitted is that atheists
claim no common standard, that morality is largely a matter of personal
choice. They then ignore the logical consequences of taking such a view
-- that under such an assumption, nothing can be called "wrong.")
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: names
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:54:00
EID:51f3 205d9ec0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932437F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> A good point, but the more important point is that there should be
MH> better ways for people on either side to communicate than name-calling.
RB> In a gentler, kinder echo, the style of communicating
RB> would be different. But as anyone knows (who's been here
RB> more than 5 minutes), this echo ain't gentle OR kind.
RB> The confrontational atmosphere appeals to some (maybe even
RB> to you, eh Hardy?)
Hey, you want to call me confrontational, you better smile when you say
that, Burcham! :)
MH> Also, "heathen" really isn't a pejorative -- it's a legitimate word
MH> with a legitimate meaning, and non-Christians are heathens, by
MH> definition.
RB> Unlucky for us that most of our culture sees Christians as
RB> the good guys and heathens as the evil-doers. Minorities
RB> simply get no respect.
RB> BTW, the 2nd definition for 'heathen' in my dictionary is
RB> 'any irreligious or uncultivated person'. That would
RB> suggest that the religious are cultivated while the irreligious
RB> are not.
It does? Gee, I always thought "or" indicated two unrelated conditions,
of which only one need apply.
Let's see ... "Conjunction junction, what's your function? Hookin' up
words and phrases and clauses ... "
MH> If it has a negative connotation, it still is a
MH> real word. "Christer," "Jeezoid," etc. *are* slurs,
MH> like "nigger" or "kike."
RB> Not quite. Christianity is a choice (although, considering
RB> the powerful influences of tradition and indoctrination, it
RB> may not be that much of a choice). One's race (with accompanying
RB> physical characteristics) is not a choice. It's the difference
RB> between shouting "Hey, big nose" and "Hey, big dummy"!
Mmmm ... except that "heathen" is an actual technical term. It seems
like it's more like the difference between describing someone as a
caucasian or "whitey."
MH> And truly, I see a number of non-Christians here who seem to think
that
MH> calling such names is the best way to make their points. (Or at
MH> least the best way they're capable of.) Since most of you seem to think
MH> yourselves better than us, it is delicious to watch you degenerate
to
MH> calling us childish names.
RB> Anything an atheist could say pales in comparison to "I'll
RB> see you roasting in hell"! THAT is the biggest obscenity of
RB> all.
I agree. Most likely, those in heaven don't see into hell. :)
... Are you here to serve the truth, or twist the truth to serve you?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: better than
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:57:00
EID:2c2b 205d9f20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324380
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
RB> BTW, we ARE better than you. The total absence of morality
RB> gives us an edge. :)
I saw a comedian once who sang a song that went like this:
Jim Morrison can't sing better than me
I sing better than him
Jimi Hendrix can't play guitar better than me
I play better than him
John Holmes can't make love better than me
I am better than him
Lincoln's not a better leader than me
I lead better than him
Because they're dead.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:59:00
EID:6df5 205d9f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324381
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> SE> In fact, using your argument one could throw out all but Genesis
KS> since
MH> SE> the rest has obviously just been 'tacked on'.
MH> SE> Weak argument, Michael. I expected better from you.
MH> I'm not sure you even understood the argument, especially as I haven't
MH> made it yet. I was only trying to establish a baseline agreement with
MH> this question.
MH> It seems that the Gospel of Mark's ending, including the part about
MH> handling snakes and drinking poison, was added centuries after the
MH> gospel was written. The oldest and best manuscripts do not have it.
The
MH> earliest manuscripts which do have it date from the Middle Ages.
MH> This was not known to the first English translators of the Bible,
MH> including the King James translators in 1611. The older manuscripts
KS> Michael, are you just being obstinate, or are you really stupid?
I should ask you the same question. You've demonstrated a complete
inability to understand simple points, and this post simply drives that
truth home.
KS> Or do you think the "original" bible just appeared out of nowhere
KS> all intact and complete at some point in the early CE?
No. And nothing I've said should imply that I do.
KS> It is obvious to anyone with an IQ over 7 that the thing has had
KS> additions and deletions with EVERY translation and EVERY 'bugfix'.
Someone who knows nothing about Bible translations perhaps. What's
happened, Karl, is that as time goes on, older manuscripts have been
found, copies closer in time to the original documents than what
earlier translators had available. At the same time, scholars'
understanding of the ancient languages has increased, leading to more
accurate translations of the languages.
I defy you to name ONE addition or deletion that isn't directly the
result of one of those two things.
KS> I had begun to think you had a modicum of sense, but this latest
KS> really makes me doubt it.
Back at you. Since you're so full of yourself in your certainty, it
shouldn't be a challenge to you to fulfill my request 100-fold.
Not that I plan to hold my breath.
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: fat babies have no pride
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:07:00
EID:ab4c 205da0e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> So long as you arbitrarily define who is and isn't part of humanity,
MH> you need never feel guilty of a crime against humanity. If you ever
MH> decide you want to do away with someone, just come up with a
MH> definition of person that excludes them.
KD> Birth is not arbitrary.
Proclaiming that birth is the dividing line between personhood and
non-person is very arbitrary.
Do you support legal abortion through all nine months of pregnancy?
... Definition of Fundy: Changes frequently; call for current version.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:08:00
EID:498a 205da100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> SA> The people at Jonestown and Waco also suffered and died for what
MH> SA> they believed in, and they were contemporary to the leaders of
MH> SA> their groups. Just because someone lived at the same time,
MH> SA> Michael, does not mean that they are knowledgeable about what
MH> SA> has gone on in that time from someone else's perspective.
MH>
MH> I've made this point about a thousand times, and no one ever
MH> seems to grasp it. Once more:
MH>
MH> The resurrection of Jesus was an EVENT!! It was not a claim, such as
MH> the claims made by Koresh or Jim Jones.
KDM> It is a *claim* of an event, Mike.
And well-attested to by what evidence we have available -- mainly the
fact that people who lived very close in time and space to the event
believed it. That is, those most in a position to know it wasn't true
believed it was true.
The claims of Jones and Koresh, in contrast, are not even *claims* of
events. They are claims, period.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: your ignorance
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:10:00
EID:0d05 205da140
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324384
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Michael Hardy <=-
GR> Feel free to explore Mark 16:15-18. My science against your beliefs.
GR> Belly up to the bar moron. Mark 16:15-18, I'll pour. Feel free to
GR> believe in
GR> the Book.
GR> Mark 16:15-18. Debate that. Your Book says that you aren't a
GR> Christian.
I've discussed this several times, though I don't think I have with
you.
Mark 16:15-18 -- indeed, the entire ending of Mark from 16:9 on -- is
not part of the original gospel. It does not occur in any manuscripts
until the Middle Ages. It is not Scripture. Therefore, your challenge
is moot.
Note that I am NOT basing this on the fact that the passage is
inconvenient, but on the fact that there's simply no indication it
existed for 1,000 years or so after the Gospel was written.
Other skeptics have agreed this is true, but have said your challenge
is appropriate for Christians who insist every word of the Bible AS WE
HAVE IT NOW is infallible. Perhaps. But I make no such insistence, so
it does not apply to me.
Knowing that I have a less rigid approach to Scripture than some
Christians, you have three options, as I see it.
1. You can admit that I have an intelligent approach, and hit me with a
better challenge.
2. (The one I expect you to take) You can stamp your feet in
frustration and whine about "salad bar Christianity," because you
simply have no clue how to argue with a Christian who isn't a
Fundamentalist.
3. You can ignore this post altogether, knowing you lack the
intelligence to handle an educated Christian. (If you don't choose
option 2, then I expect you'll choose this one.)
Which one you choose will have a great deal of influence on my decision
to either continue this exchange or twit you.
Have a nice day.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: fax
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:21:00
EID:231e 205da2a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324385
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Karl, this is what the word means according to a Hebrew-English
MH> dictionary. You are arguing with objective truth here, which is a
MH> pretty stupid thing to do.
KS> No, I am arguing with the contention that your Bible is allegedly
KS> inspired by God. If it were, and if God existed, it wouldn't be full
KS> of fuckups.
MH> MH> You can continue insisting it's an error if you like, but if you
do,
MH> MH> you'll be contradicting facts.
MH> KS> It's an error. It plainly says what it says and it's wrong. TS.
MH> What the Hebrew word means in Hebrew is what it means, period, and it
MH> is correct.
KS> Bullshit. I know for sure there's a Hebrew word for 'bat' and I'll
KS> find it when I get time.
There is. There is also an English word for "sparrow," but that doesn't
mean sparrows aren't also birds.
Do you understand language, Karl? "Bird" is a collective noun -- it
covers a large number of animals that are bound together by certain
similarities, but are also different in some ways. Collective nouns
can be more or less specific.
For example: "1996 Ford Taurus" is specific. "1996 Fords" is less
specific. "Fords" is even less so. "American-made cars" even less.
"Cars" even less.
There is a word for "Ford," but Fords are also cars. The fact that
there's a more specific word doesn't mean it's not part of the general
group.
The Hebrew word "uwph" does NOT mean exactly the same thing that the
English word "bird" does. It is more general. Bats and birds are both
*uwph*, even though they have little common besides being animals
bigger than insects that fly. (Airplanes and helicopters are quite
different, but both are "aircraft.")
Now, if you are still stupidly stubborn enough to insist that it's a
mistake, you can have fun talking to yourself. This is as clear as I
can make the point, and a third-grader would understand it. If you
don't, it simply isn't worth my time to continue arguing with you.
But for the record: This information comes from a Hebrew/English
reference work -- Strong's Concordance -- and is NOT merely my opinion.
... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: face value
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:31:00
EID:5aea 205da3e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324386
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mimi Milstein to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> That's a fairly common conclusion drawn by many Christians.
MH> However, you'll find that most of the atheists on Holy
MH> Smoke take the Bible much more literally than many
MH> Christians do. ;-)
MM> I agree :-) this is a very confrontational echo - come Hell or
MM> high water, everybody has to hammer everybody else - if it makes
MM> sense or not.
MM> I, personally, tend to take side whith the "scientific community'
MM> and thus have problems in taking things on face value [as being
MM> recommended by the Christians]
I don't think Christians suggest taking anything at face value.
Examples?
... Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Luke
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:38:00
EID:f71b 205da4c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324387
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Elliott Finesse <=-
EF> All objectively true and verifiable? Wow, that sure would be something
EF> to see! One thing puzzles me. Why all this other who-ha and dancing
EF> around if you have such rock solid evidence as that? Verifiable? I'm
EF> impressed. History is the weakest science.
AS> An example. Many in the German school of theology (very skeptical)
AS> dated John's Gospel around 200 AD, and thought it a late forgery. They
AS> basically were following their own agenda, that the Gospels were late
AS> additions to the growing beliefs of followers, and making assumptions
AS> to fit their theories. This was in the last century.
AS> Then they found fragments of John's Gospel in Egypt dated about 125
AS> AD. Oops.
AS> There is some evidence that the Gospel of Matthew is pretty old,
AS> also. A recent claim by a specialist in Egyptian writings claim the
AS> style of writing for the Gospel of Matthew contains a telltale,
AS> upright Greek writing that was going out of style in the first
AS> century. The press originally claimed he gave it a date of around 70
AS> AD, and so it was first reported in the international edition of TIME.
AS> However, when he actually presented the paper, he revised his estimate
AS> upwards to around the turn of the first century (100 AD) which is
AS> still reasonably recent. Far better than anything we have of any other
AS> ancient documents.
Have I ever given you the summary argument for dating the entire New
Testament (save possibly Revelation and Hebrews) before a.d. 70?
... SEX education? I thought this was SECTS education!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: al
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:40:00
EID:0736 205da500
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324388
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Oosterman to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Right. But the WEIRD thing is, Micheal (at least on Sunday afternoon)
AS> could not see me, though he lives in nearby Alabama. But good to hear
AS> from you, at least, Dave. So they can now see me in Michigan? That
AS> means Asmodiddly can now see me insulting him?
DO> Chatted with Michael (note the spelling :) this weekend. He sees you
DO> now.
Yeah, finally got that surveillance camera working ... :)
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: fred
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:41:00
EID:b305 205da520
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324389
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Oosterman to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> You two cultists would probably be happy in Iran -- you know, "one
FR> nation under god."
DO> Dear Fred,
DO> Does it suck to not have a life?
Is it life to not have a suck?
(Forget I said that ... ) ;-)
... NO CARRIER... A naval aviator's worst nightmare ...
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: churches
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:44:00
EID:d5aa 205da580
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932438A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
MB> On (25 Feb 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...
AS> They tested okay, but they said the real test would be
AS> putting it in.
Yeah, that's when you find out if she *really* likes you! ;-)
... To live without passion is to begin to die.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:45:00
EID:c943 205da5a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932438B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to All <=-
AM> Okay, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I am up to the
RB> Would everyone PLEASE quit throwing down the GOD-DAMNED GAUNTLET?!
It could be worse. They could be sending a message, or fighting for the
heart and soul of the Republican party.
Avoid cliches like the plague. :)
... Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Roland
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:22:24
EID:c7fc 205daac0
MSGID: 3:711/933 31361950
Dear Roland,
R> Dinosaur teeth marks have been found on smaller fossils indicating that
R> dinosaurs preyed on them. Had humans existed at that point in time, it
R> is logical to conclude that humans also would have been prey; and would
R> be found with teeth and claw marks. Since no human remains have ever
R> been found with these marks it is also logical to conclude that
R> dinosaurs and humans never co-existed on this planet.
Not even though human and dinosoar footprints are found together.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Ducks?
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:47:05
EID:b557 205d75e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367C9D
DW> Do ducks try to prohibit people from doing with their bodies as they
DW> wish? Do ducks try to prohibit free expression of ideas? Do ducks
DW> burn books? Do ducks waddle around trying to get all other creatures
DW> to become ducks?
Nope, all ducks don't anyway. However, one duck will fight off other ducks
that are from a different pond. What I see in the world is a lot of people
arguing about things, and pushing things that are usually the same things
described in different terms. Seems wasteful to me.
DW> If these Christians/ducks were content to let others live their lives
DW> as they saw fit, you'd see a lot less rock throwing.
That I strongly support! That NO faith should run others or inforce their
views on others. I feel each person should make those choices for themselves.
If we spent more time trying to get our own lives and behavior as we choose
it to be, there'd be a lot less time to spend pushing our views on others.
I just want to make sure, that I do not echo the behavior of those that
I can not approve of. I don't care, from which faith a person comes....
I admire those who respect others expression of faith, and am disappointed
when I run across those who scream "My way or the highway!"
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Big bird
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:49:59
EID:deb6 205d9e20
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367C9E
FR> Actually, Jim, any hate group you can point to which hates blacks and
FR> gays is going to be a Christanic group -- one of _your_ ideological
FR> friends. Hatred and bigotry is nearly the venue of the deity
FR> religious.
Have you ever realized how discrimination is deeply engrained in our culture?
Sadly, I watched a child singing along with Big Bird, "One of these things.
is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong" Scarey
thoughts. Regardless of the religious connotations, discrimination and
intollerance begins it's training very early in innocent ways all through
our society.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Quotes
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:01:22
EID:8df4 205da020
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367C9F
FR> HOW TO USE FEAR TO CONTROL THE IGNORANT
FR> Read: Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922
I've been reading your postings of these little quotes. I would love to
know it there is a book that has these quotes arranged in such a wonderfully
obvious manner. If there is, I want a copy!
I admire the patience you show. When I say I do not agree with the spreading
of hate mongering under the name of religion, I'm referring to exactly this
type of material. I think this type of response is much more effective
than the name calling and attacks on character that I see so often.. Thanks.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Abusers
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:23:08
EID:fc6e 205da2e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367CA0
LB> lessons inhow to be a successful abuser, but the FIRST step is to
LB> convince your victim
LB> Thus the abusers first set themselves up as PROTECTOR from the bad
LB> cruelworld, and deny access (or the ability to gain access) to any
Been there, done that and you are exactly right on how it works. Took me
a number of years to reverse the process. Now I'm just left with a rather
noticible reaction when one person begins the CONTROL movements.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:25:48
EID:2cc3 205da320
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367CA1
JA> again. Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used
JA> to be. Doya think any one would be interested? nah...probably not.
I might be interested in how, and why you have changed. I once was a fundy
myself.... then I got better.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Changes
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:27:55
EID:6a6b 205da360
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367CA2
JA> You can call them what you like. I'm not willing to totally bash
JA> Christianity, nor will I ever. I find it morally wrong to criticize
JA> others for their beliefs. But you could say I have been thinking a
JA> lot.:)
Yep, thinking can be like taking off a set of blinders. Try to not swap
one set for another. I agree that spending time bashing others is wasteful.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 29 Feb 96 23:46:40
EID:e578 205dbdc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8003e
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3133afb2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
AM> Creator of the universe. No matter what troubles there are, I have
AM> a real peace and joy.
Uh huh. Tell us, thumb-sucking fundy...what are UNreal peace and joy supposed
to feel like?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal lies again!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 23:46:55
EID:dd53 205dbdc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8003f
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 b5ab11cd
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Staal wrote in a message to Styx Allum:
> .....FYI, Jim, Lon, Br.Jimmy and the rest of the alais'
> have left the echo for good
SA> We've heard this story before. We know how it (never) ends.
SA> Jimbo has already slipped up a couple of times.
JS> Only once, sir...ok...this twice.
Shut up, Jimmy! When we want the raving of an ignorant Xtian scum to pollute
this echo...we'll simply take you down off the meat-hook and ungag you.
Now, get ready to slip up three times.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hardy pretends there's nothing wrong
|Date: 29 Feb 96 23:29:49
EID:4230 205dbba0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8003d
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d113728
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to All:
FR> If so, then I believe the innocent children who, unfortunately,
FR> lost their physical lives, gain eternal life in heaven and thus
FR> aren't punished at all. - Michael Hardy
FR> To all Christians: He's one of yours.
"Oooooohhhh... I don't want him - you can have him
"He's too dumb for meeeeeeee
"He's just a fun-dieeeeee...
"Ig-nor-ant as can beeeee."
"Ooooohhhhhh... I don't want him - you can have him
"His name is Har-deeeeee
"A big dis-grace to the hu-man race...
"He's too dumb for meeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:52:46
EID:465b 205d7680
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 135ff594
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef324
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
> Waco Rememberance will start 1pm Saturday March 2, 1996 in Austin, Texas
> on the south side of the Texas State Capital at 11th and Congress.
FR> Are you clowns going to blow up another federal building
FR> this year?
Not me, nor any Waco protester that I know. We believe that the taking
of innocent life, as happened at Waco, can't be protested by taking MORE
innocent life.
Gosh Frederic, you sure have carried your prejudice and hatred a long time.
Don't you think we should do something about these govt tank drivers, our
employees, who are still at large:
"I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and children
and having a big tank coming through the front door. And they penetrated
a
room's length or more... This is America. This isn't a police state. I
don't
care what they did. I can't see that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't
realize the tanks had done that until I was show