God Damned Fundies!
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 26 Feb 96 23:58:00
EID:7a8d 205abf40
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b4
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> However, you also seem to think that if a God *did* exist, the universe
MH> would be completely man-centered.
And where, pray tell, did I get that notion?
MH> You, among others, have said that you
MH> take the fact that much of the universe appears to be lifeless, and
has
MH> little direct effect on us, to be evidence that it was not designed.
You, among others, have said that this 'life sustaining'
universe is indicative of a creator. I'm merely pointing
out that nearly all of the universe is hostile to life.
God has created a giant poisonous mushroom with only a
minuscule edible portion.
MH> To which I say: Yes, the universe is much more vast than it needs to
be
MH> for our direct benefit. So what?
MH>
MH> And that's where egotism comes in -- why should you assume that God,
if
MH> God existed, would NOT have created a vast universe, for reasons that
MH> may have nothing to do with humanity whatsoever?
Let me get this straight: I don't think there's a god, but
if I did, I would have a huge ego for thinking he created the
entire universe for our benefit? Is that like...'I don't
think JFK's the Anti-Christ, but if I did, I'd be a nutcase
living in Alaska'?
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Astronomer: A night watchman
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: AL SCHROEDER
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 27 Feb 96 00:37:00
EID:57ea 205b04a0
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b5
TID: GE 1.11+
AS> So if He were just PLAYING the part
AS> of the OT Jehovah, then He certainly put His own spin on the part.
He not
AS> only took the part, but extended and built upon it, to the point where
AS> most Jews did not agree He WAS a good imitation.
And since he didn't become a king and drive out the Roman
invaders, most Jews did not agree he was a good messiah either.
AS> True, Buddhist monks have set themselves on fire---although as I
AS> remember it, it was more of a political plea for nonviolence and a
stop to
AS> war, rather than following any true religious doctrine of Buddha (as
in
AS> anything applying to the spiritual side of life, although certainly
AS> nonviolence is a doctrine of Buddha's).
The Buddhist monks demonstrate that the ultimate sacrifice
doesn't require divinity, merely a certain frame of mind.
Willingly going to your death for the greater good is not
exclusively messianic.
AS> But notice; Jesus was content to
AS> be led to the slaughter, as it were, but He didn't hang HIMSELF.
Yes, his purported sacrifice was not as overtly impressive
as the monks, but adequate for martyrdom nonetheless.
AS> from MY point of view, I see something rather ironic. In practically
every
AS> other mythology, and in most of my religion, God judges man. This is
the
AS> only regligous story I can think of where a God submitted to the judgement
AS> of Man. No other god played so magnificently fair with mankind.
Or a man who thought he was God was executed for sedition.
And an elaborate myth was born from that simple act.
AS> Rob, if a slave had accidentally jostled the wife of the slaveowner
too
AS> hard, and she miscarried as a result, do you REALLY think that the
slave
AS> wouldn't be fearful for his life?
Oh sure. Assuming the slaveowner and his wife WANT a baby.
It's not the PRESENT fetus that has great value and importance.
It's the FUTURE baby. And that's the point that is so
difficult to convey to pro-lifers. They even use FUTURE
terminology (baby, child) in describing what is PRESENTLY a
fetus.
AS> Funny thing is, I have more second thoughts afterwards. Far afterwards.
---------------------------------
AS> But yeah, part of me wonders
AS> if I am a murderer, or an accomplice to murder.
You assisted in removing a fetus from her body. It was not
a baby. It was not a child. It was a fetus.
AS> Yes. Which is not uncommon in that time. Remember the woman who came
up to
AS> him, the Gentile woman, and begged a miracle, when He said it was not
AS> fitting that the dogs should eat from the table---and she answered
that
AS> even dogs eat from the scraps under the table?
So, was Jesus anti-Gentile?
AS> But notice that MUCH of the pattern is repeated, in mind-numbing
AS> regularity, in culture after culture, as Campbell showed in his HERO
OF A
AS> THOUSAND FACES. The dying god who is resurrected is done in culture
after
AS> culture. It's as if the myths were sent to prepare us for the reality.
Or your 'reality' is just one more myth in a long line of
myths. It's all a matter of interpretation, Watson.
AS> other myths that fit the pattern happened long ago and far away in
a
AS> mythical golden age, but Jesus, who fulfills the pattern, exists in
a
AS> specific place and time. It's as if in Him history and myth meet...that
AS> the other myths is either our hunger for the sort of thing that Jesus
AS> fulfilled (as an adolescent yearns for sex without necessarily having
a
AS> clear conception of it) or the myths, many of which are beautiful in
their
AS> own way, were sent from God ("every good and perfect thing comes from
AS> God") to prepare us for the reality.
You're overlooking another very obvious posssibility: myths
are an integral part of being human. The myriad of myths
among diverse cultures are not any sort of 'preparation' for
the real thing, but simply the way different cultures have
chosen to express their intrinsic need for myths.
BTW, every culture in every age has viewed IT'S myth as the
'real thing'. You and your millions of fellow Christians
are simply upholding the tradition of 'true believers'.
AS> I'm not so sure. By linking His message to a particular people, He
used
AS> them as a template to develop His word, to saturate one people with
His
AS> message, to see what would happen.
God's not WordPerfect. He don't need no stiinkin template!
AS> But not bad, Rob. It MIGHT have been a look alike brother. It doesn't
AS> explain the Ascension or some of the other details, but you can say
that
AS> was added later. But what happened to the lookalike?
He left town? Seriously, there may have been a series of
events (natural events) that put Jesus' followers into a
frenzy. The stage was set, they were already fanatics
and if one or two unexplained things happened, they were
primed to go right over the edge.
As an example: My nephew had recently joined an Assembly
of God church. These people were not Methodists, they got
EXCITED about things! One evening, there was an explosion
at a nearby army amunition plant. Within minutes, one of
my nephew's newfound bible buddies was at the door announcing
the second coming of Christ (the eastern sky was all lit up
in pretty colors). An unusual (but natural event) interpreted
as something supernatural by a fanatic.
AS> Yes. You feel about dieties as I do about Grigor-Scott's Illuminati.
AS> That's okay. But just be open to the possibility that those who talk
of
AS> transcendent experiences might actually be describing something real.
Many of them probably ARE describing something real. Something
that is really going on in their brains. Try telling a
schizophrenic that the voices aren't real.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 28 Feb 96 23:14:00
EID:7a8d 205cb9c0
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b6
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> Assuming a God exists, WHY do you assume that His creation would have
MH> to be either teeming with life, or centered around us? Why do you limit
MH> this hypothetical God to creating what is only of utilitarian purpose?
Boy, you theists have done an about face. You've gone from
fancying yourself as the 'center of creation' to 'an anomaly
in the fabric of space'. Was that bit of wisdom gleaned from
scripture or was it science that turned the tide?
MH> Who are you to insist he can't create beauty for beauty's sake? Who
are
MH> you to assume there is no use for the rest of the universe just because
MH> *you* don't see a use for it?
Bits of the universe may be quite useful for other lifeforms
scattered about out there. But given the scale of things,
nearly all of it is useless to us.
MH> You also forget the question of scale. To an infinite God, a universe
MH> 10 microns across and one 10 exquillion light years across are pretty
MH> much the same. The vastness of space and the unfathomable billions
of
MH> years it has existed may boggle our minds, but to an infinite and
MH> eternal creator, they might as well be 10 miles and 15 years.
With the passage of time and the advancements of science, God
just keeps getting bigger and bigger. He's gone from the
immediate tribe to the tops of mountains to the sea to the
Earth to the sky to the ends of the universe. If someday it's
discovered that this is but one universe out of billions, will
God only retain the copyright to THIS one or will he be granted
Lordship over them all? Given his history of expansionism, I
suspect the latter.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: flood
|Date: 28 Feb 96 23:41:00
EID:b8af 205cbd20
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b7
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> RB> You are correct. It is evidence that they 'believed'. Some
MH> RB> people 'believe' they've been abducted by aliens. Are you willing
MH> RB> to accept THEIR beliefs?
MH>
MH> Would people who believe this willingly die for refusing to recant
that
MH> belief?
Many people have willingly died for their convictions. Given
the inherent zealotry of religion, it's no surprise that it
has it's share of martyrs.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Artery: Study of fine paintings
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.3H1e
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 28 Feb 96 23:48:00
EID:5e14 205cbe00
MSGID: 1:280/9 1e9606b8
TID: GE 1.11+
MH> Our newspaper -- before I came to work for it -- once ran this headline
MH> over a story about a man who had waged a letter-writing campaign for
MH> some cause or other:
MH>
MH> Penis mightier than sword
:) Was it a rapier?
MH> This was in the days of hot type, and someone obviously forgot the
MH> space.
That's still long after the apprenticeship of Don Martin.
He was the typesetter on Gutenberg's first edition.
___
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:08:34
EID:e2fe 205c3900
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Fredric Rice > J.J. Hitt : Jim Staal
jjh> I called 1-800-GO-PAT-GO, repeatedly.
> "I don't know. This is a support line."
FR> What the Goddess Hel does the Religious Reich need with a "support
FR> line?" What kind of information are they expecting to give out? Or
is
FR> it a line which takes donations?
What scares me is the concept of a huge group hug with Pat and the
rest of the wallet-lifters. Maybe they all sit in a circle and say:
"Hi, my name is Pat, and I'm a Republican . . . "
"Hi, Pat . . . "
Etc. Maybe the Party has a 12-step program or something there . . .
};)
... You may be a monster truck pagan if your wand doubles as a tire gauge.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:31:59
EID:d850 205c43e0
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Kenneth Cavness > Steve Wallis : Re: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, Steve Wallis said to Sue Armstrong:
SW> May God Almighty surround you Sue with a hedge of His angelic Host to
SW> protect you and guide you into a full knowledge of the truth. Have a
KC> And if she wants a shrubbery? A nice two-tiered one for a good
KC> effect?
KC> What then, eh Steve? WHAT THEN?!
Maybe Steve has fallen from the fold and is no longer a Knight who
says Kni. Ever consider that? Maybe he's now a Knight who says
Ecky Ecky Ecky Ecky Ecky Zoom-New-Womba . . . };)
... My forefathers went to Hell & all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Blinded me with science..
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:22:31
EID:8089 205c3ac0
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Kenneth Cavness > Michael Hardy : Re: Blinded me with science..
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, Michael Hardy said to John Prewett:
-=> Quoting John Prewett to Michael Hardy <=-
KC> Ah, a lovefest. It's so cute to watch one infant gurgle with another.
KC> It of course raises the famous question: if two minors are having
KC> sex, are they both committing statutory rape?
Don't get too involved. We are keeping the pick of the litter and
drowning the rest. };)
JP> So we agree asking heathens for evidence is a waste of time. Yes ?
MH> Of course. Only theists have to actually back up their claims.
KC> On the specific, positivist claim that "There is a [gG]od", yes, they
KC> do. It's a very simple and very logical elementary debate rule.
My favorite reaction to this sort of question was: Oh, there has to
be a God . . . anyone I'd talk to during orgasm has to exist . . .
};)
JP> [and it's fun watching them adamantly declare
JP> that atheist/heathens have no standards]
MH> And lately, deny that they admitted it. :D
KC> I wasn't aware that I had no standards. Thanks for letting me know.
I wasn't aware that we'd said we had no standards. We might have
been lying, and actually do have them. Anyone with no standards
would lie like shit through a goose. I bet we were lying. I bet
we do have standards. Sometimes I really hate us.
KC> Do you know where Pat Robertson is? I think I'd like to buy some
KC> standards from the 700 club. Or maybe Pat Buchanan.. or -OO!- Jimmy
KC> Swaggart? Oral Roberts? Anselm of Canterbury [how did that sneak in?]
I happen to know that Jim Baker has standards that he isn't using,
and I bet you could get them real cheap, depending on how friendly
you were . . .
... You may be a monster truck pagan if your Yule log reads `BF Goodrich.'
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: FOF "hate" 3
|Date: 28 Feb 96 07:30:50
EID:943b 205c3bc0
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/ |||| |||
Elliott Finesse > Michael Hardy : Re: FOF "hate" 3
EF> In a message dated 02-24-96 Karen Davis wrote to Michael Hardy:
EF> Try Mike, try to picture the scene:
<<>>
I applaud you sir. Well done. Now let's see what kind of a
heartless bastard he really is. I bet he pulls the "well,
atrocities are common in times of war" routine.
My hat's off to you. If you have no problem with it, may I save
that to a file and show others? It makes the whole issue very
graphic.
... "At birth we woke to dream in this world between." -Kan'ami Kiyotsugu
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:36:57
EID:6684 205c4480
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/ |||| |||
Fredric Rice > Jim Staal : Staal shows his colon...
NS> It's obvious from your post that you haven't got a clue about
NS> anything that Pagan families would do. And, talk about the niceness
js> I was under the assumption that pagans
js> didn't have families, but rather flocks....
No, loons have flocks, as do ministers. (Oh no, a redundancy!) You
didn't know this?
FR> That's because your cult masters want to keep you ignorant,Mark, of
FR> life-affirming religions. Otherwise your death cult would drop ever
FR> more quickly in club membership.
js> .....Uh huuh huh, My name's Fred...I'm one of the
js> intelligent gorillas please don't feed me!
Here we see Jim aspire to greatness . . .
FR> Your hatred of women and your bigotry against Pagan women is ugly,
FR> Jim. It's also typically Christian, sadly.
Now, don't be too harsh on Jim. He's insecure. He hates Pagan
women because they're more manly than he is, stronger than he is,
more intelligent than he is (actually, my pet hampsters are more
intelligent, but that's another discussion entirely!), and they get
to have free will as well as other fun things such as nakedness in
church, sexual freedom, etc., whereas he has to suffer under the yolk
of Wilbur and his `living-dead god'.
I bet Pagan women even have bigger penises than Jim, but don't
quote me on it . . . }:)
... Vaginas bother me in the way that spiders bother some people.-Boy George
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: AN INTERESTING SITUATION.
|Date: 29 Feb 96 08:00:59
EID:8165 205d4000
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80033
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302cc
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
George Rudzinski wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
GR> I can type, why point and click?
GR> Windoze is a program for idiots.
Funny...that is what our office help says about Mac-In-The-Box. :)
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Buchanan Bashing!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 08:01:55
EID:1492 205d4020
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f80034
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302ca
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
George Rudzinski wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
GR> Hell! I contributed to Pat's campaign. With Pat as a candidate,
GR> Clinton wins, and Congress is once again Democratic.
Yeah...but you don't have to throw good money away to do it. Pat's own
mouth will be his downfall...as it has been in the past.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 29 Feb 96 13:39:13
EID:6f74 205d6ce0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3135acb8
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302c9
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Lynda and George were killing time yakking about Jim Staal:
MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a weakened
MS> body, Pneumonia.
LB> I'm sorry to hear that, Mark. Please pass on my condolences to Jim
--
LB> and to you as well.
GR> Gee! Like he is experiencing something new on earth?
*shrug* There are a lot of things that happen frequently that I am as sorry
to
hear the 1000th time it happens as I am the first time -- I wasn't expressing
SHOCK, now was I? The father has been ill for some time, and they have
expressed difficulty with his poor health and decline, and even though this
means that they will no longer have to deal with that, it can still be hard
to
deal with it finally being over.
And in any event it's the first time it's happened to *them*.
GR> The man croaked like we are all going to. I have it stipulated in my
GR> will that when I die there is to be no funeral. That is called being
a
GR> prick from the grave.
Not exactly -- funerals can be extremely expensive. If there are those
who
desire some sort of formal acknowledgement of your death (and funerals aren't
FOR you, they are for those who need closure), the money can be donated
in
your name to a charity of your choice, given to set up a scholarship fund,
or what-have-you. Or just ask everyone who might be so inclined to get
together at your favorite restaurant and have one last night on the town
in
your memory. :)
GR> And Mark isn't being very honest. They let him die. Pneumonia is
GR> treatable. I'm glad they wised up and let him die, but why let him
GR> suffer until he contracted pneumonia and then suddenly withold
GR> treatment?
You'll have to take that up with them. I don't know enough of the details
to
comment on it.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Stipulation #1: There will be no stipulations
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 13:35:15
EID:6321 205d6c60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3135acb9
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Don and Joanna were killing time yakking about URL!:
-> JA> I still insist that I am not an idiot.:) I could have JA>
-> been...then...but not now. Find a differnt person to pick on.
-> Maintain your silence and you shall get your wish.
JA> Nope, sorry, no can do. You see, i enjoy Holysmoke too much for
JA> that. So I'll just be waiting around for my chance to jump in
JA> again. Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used
to
JA> be. Do ya think any one would be interested? nah...probably not.
JA> Myabe you're right. Guess I'll just read...not write.;)
Joanna -- I'm interested. :) And glad to see you back. In what way have
you
changed? Catch us up on what's been happening in your life.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Polka-dot?" "If you insist..."
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:740b 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org db3daeba
PS>Whilst noshing on a Twinkie, Andrew Masten mumbled "Evidence"
PS> AM> terms for producing evidence are a one way street. That this is
a
PS> AM> religeous debate echo is a misnomer, its really a Christain
PS> AM> bashing echo.
PS>Point of order: As you may or may not have seen, we bash some pagans,
PS>Satanists, an occasional Muslim, and even atheists and agnostics. Don't
PS>try to play the "pity me, pity me" game. Besides, doesn't your holy book
PS>say that you're blessed for being "persecuted"?
I guess that it isn't 'real true bashing'(tm) when you chase me around
the block demanding evidence of 'magick'. Ah, well. maybe it would
look more like 'real true bashing'(tm) if I sulked about not having a
good answer.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * At such times, the wise cat retires to meditate.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Gramm
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:373a 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ad7d8407
RJ> DW> 16 Feb 96 04:01, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Michael Hardy:
RJ> KW> much self respect to vote for any of the republicans. Hell, the
last
RJ> KW> time I voted for a repulican't was when Ford ran.
RJ> That could make her as young as 38. I've seen plenty of
RJ> women that age I'd hardly consider "middle-age mommies". };->
Not until this spring. I'm currently 37.
RJ> DW> "Middle aged mommy type" my ass. You're ancient. :P
RJ> Uh, I believe they prefer to be called "crones".
;) With us, age *is* status.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Atheist reaching orgasm: Oh chance! Ahhh, random!! Yes!!!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Buttpimple Satanist FAILS
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:c762 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 672278ce
JH> A>> Anyway, in this instance I employed summoning to damage
JH> A>> J.J. (take another) Hitt.
JH> JH>> Oh! Oh! I'm damaged!
JH> PS> He says that he employed summoning, J.J. Did you see any little
JH> PS> things with horns and wings appear out of nowhere at you?
JH> I'm calling from Texas, Insect Capital of the Universe. If there
JH> had been such critters they wouldn't have been noticed.
So that's what happened. The roaches got his demon.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:d4bb 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d45e3fb5
SA>-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Terry Liberty-parker <=-
SA> KW> Terry, dear, if you are trying to be bitchy, you've missed the boat.
SA> KW> This is how it's done:
SA> (etc)
SA> Katherine, that was wonderful! I only hope that I can achieve that
SA>level of bitchiness someday. Anyone who thinks that Holysmoke is not
SA>educational is sadly mistaken .
Thank you, Sue. I'm sure that you could do equally as well, if not
better, if you want to. I have never understood why men think that I
should be insulted by being called a bitch. Someday, I hope to achieve
the status of 'Grand Bitch'.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Bacteria is the only culture some people will ever have.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: HS WEB PAGE
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:498a 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 87d5fc95
KD>On (19 Feb 96) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> KW> Motrin can cause liver damage in large doses. In my case, that
was
KD> KW> what was behind the hike in liver enzymes. Did your doctor have
KD> KW> anything to tell you?
KD>I hate to admit it, but I've not consulted a doctor specifically about
KD>it. Money for real medical care just isn't there right now, we have to
KD>hold out for urgent problems. I don't take large doses of Ibuprofen -
a
KD>couple of times a month I'll take 2 for a headache.
Ah, yes. Our wonderful health care system. :\
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...It's 10:00pm-Do you even know WHAT your children are?
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Question
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:e569 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org cbb46575
SA>Is this your latest crusade? Did the missing persons project
SA>pan out, or do you find that locating discrimination is more
SA>important than locating children?
SA>We're all purple, George. We just didn't think you'd believe it.
SA> -Styx
I am not either purple, Styx. I am a proud pale blue Scottish person.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Mary used a turkey baster.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:22:00
EID:ee2b 205d72c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 78ee1df6
JA>-> ~*~ Don't take me for an idiot...please...because I am NOT an idiot.
JA>-> - Joanna Amren (Defending Christanic Creationism myths)
JA>Okay...I have to reply to this. I've been reading these messages for
JA>days now, looking for something to reply to.:) But I hadn't actually
JA>expected anyone to remember me! Gee how sweet of you!
JA>I still insist that I am not an idiot.:) I could have been...then...but
JA>not now. Find a differnt person to pick on.
Hi, Joanna.
Good to see you back. If you have IRC access, a lot of us can be found
on USEnet #holysmoke in the evening.
And yes, you are remembered.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Oh, no! The creationists are mutating!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Tom Hart
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:50:45
EID:d152 205c6640
MH@> ATHEIST: There's no evidence there was a global flood.
MH@> THEIST: I know. The story is probably meant as a parable. Or perhaps
MH@> there was a regional flood which was global from the perspective of
the
MH@> people of the time.
MH@> ATHEIST: Bu ... bu ... but it says it was global. You have to believe
MH@> it was global.
MH@> THEIST: Not at all. We recognize that not all the Bible is literal.
And
MH@> we recognize that the limited perspective of the people of the time
MH@> plays a role in some of the language used.
MH@> ATHEIST (near tears): But ... but ... it says global. YOU HAVE TO SAY
MH@> IT'S GLOBAL! PLEASE! I don't know any other way to argue! (Sobbing)
MH@> THEIST: Obviously, it's either a metaphor or a matter of perspective.
MH@> ATHEIST: SALAD BAR!!!
Tell me, what is metaphor/perspective or not literal in your bible?
If you do not know, aren't you guessing? If you do know, how do you
know? Have you asked the author?
It would be dishonest to say a part is not literal unless you know what
the author ment. If religious text are to be reguarded as factual, why
would you say part of it isn't factual?
I find that religious people will bend (or break) text meanings to
fit their unevidenced beliefs. This is dishonest. So much for people
of religion having morals.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Religion - Answers that may never be questioned.
--- VFIDO 7.00.11{58 Days Left}
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 28 Feb 96 13:31:53
EID:db69 205c6be0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366382
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 05258276
RJ> RS> level for Buchanan, is [get this] the chairwoman of the NAAWP.
Yes
RJ> RS> you heard it here first. The National Association for the Advancement
RJ> RS> of White People.
RJ> And of course, I'm sure you know who the founder of the NAAWP
RJ> is, don't you? David Duke, who I understand, quit the KKK
RJ> because he got tired of "all the hicks with green teeth." It's
RJ> apparently his idea of a Kinder, Gentler Klan.
KS> Did you hear Chris Dodd's comment?..."The only difference between
KS> Buchanan supporters and skinheads is hair..."
Didn't hear that one, but I still get a chuckle out of Molly
Ivins' bon mot about Buke's '92 GOP convention speech, "I pre-
ferred it in the original German."
... Write drunk! Edit sober.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: CONDEMNED BY PREWETT - CA
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:21
EID:9b7a 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366386
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62c74cf8
AS> Unfortunately, as is not uncommon, John is taking the precepts
AS> of some and making it a blanket statement for all. But there IS
AS> no central authority for the Church of Christ (i.e.,
AS> Cambellites) that I belong to, or for that matter, any Church of
AS> Christ. You can be disfellowshipped from a particular
AS> congregation for being disruptive, but you really can't be
AS> banned altogether.
JH> I wonder what would be considered "disruptive"... sneaking a
JH> harmonica or kazoo into a service?
Make it a kazoo! From reading "Gravity's Rainbow" I discovered
that a kazoo with a few pinholes punched into the diaphragm
makes the most aerodynamically efficient hashpipe known to
engineering. :-)
... But my assault rifle IS for sport! I use it to hunt BATF agents.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:21
EID:4687 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366387
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094261
As> Heh. I find it humorous how the whitelighters rely
as> so much on their As> Gods to protect them.
ns> It's about as funny as some insipid goat-worshiper believing he has
ns> ultimate power because he worships an artificial-entity construct.
FR>
FR> Hey! As a minister with the Restored Church of the Star Goat I take
FR> umbrage! (Er, whatever that is.) And I ain't giving it back!
FR> Take care else I'll have Assmodify to curse you. }:-}
FR>
Cool. I could use a magical disappearance of my student
loan file.
... "The shortest distance between two puns... is a straight line."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: All the Gods' Words
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:22
EID:7410 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366388
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c094264
jcj> I have many texts, having majored in history.
FR>
FR> And for some reason you pretend the Soviet Union was "evil."
FR>
FR> Are you also an English major?
FR>
With a blackbelt, 140 IQ, and SEAL training...
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:22
EID:dcc9 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366389
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30a
FR> Oh? People who join the Christian cult knowing what its history has
FR> been and continue to be are in agreement with it. One doesn't join
FR> the KKK and then demand they're not racists, Eric.
No, they do. They're just lying sacks of shit when they
say it, that's all.
... Happy End Times. Regards Kortron.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:22
EID:bfff 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638a
>RB> Did you experience the white light and the tunnel?
JH> No.... the afterlife looks a lot like the set of The
JN> Honeymooners.
DR> Not like a four-star restaurant?
More sort of apres-vie.
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:23
EID:6071 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638b
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337818
SQ> Salue, Fredric!
SQ> Dies solis February 25 1996, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Norbert Sykes:
FR> Take care else I'll have Assmodify to curse you. }:-}
SQ> I got a kick out of this "curse." -My- return curse is that every
SQ> time I hear the name "Asmodeus" or read it in a book, I'm going to be
SQ> able to say "Hey, I've got a neat story to go with that." We may not
SQ> know this clown's real name, but it sure is funny to think that so
SQ> many can receive so much entertainment at his expense.
I see very few Christians who get it as bad as the Satanists
who've paraded through here. Yet you won't read any of the
fundies mentioning that.
... Send lawyers, guns and money...the shit has hit the fan.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy = gotcha!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:23
EID:daae 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638c
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31337912
MH>> Aha! So you ADMIT that atheists need have no morals! :)
SQ> Nonsense...we just don't worship an old book that says "Run, Dick,
SQ> Run." I'm STILL out here wondering which of Mike's "rights" I violate
SQ> if I commit suicide.
You'll hurt his feelings. See, you'd be doing something that
would offend his god, and if you offend his god, you offend
him. I guess it's sort of like a Sicilian thing, huh?
And besides, why should YOU be able to do something his god
frowns on if he can't do it, too?
... That's bullshit. You're a white suburban punk--just like me.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Prewett's Christanic fantasies
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:24
EID:1ec4 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638e
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62cf8147
RJ> His home snailmail address acquired, so that printed transcripts
RJ> might be sent to his mailbox when he suddenly never posts in
RJ> HOLY_SMOKE again?
JH> That I don't have. If he ever posted it I missed it (not surprising,
JH> I delete large blocks of his messages unread).
There's only 2 of them listed in Fairbanks for '95, both
named Ann. S'pose one or both are his "sister(s)"?
... Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: BUTTPIMPLE SATANIST FAILS
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:24
EID:3d0d 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 3136638f
JB> Well, if you start to say you've become a Buchanan supporter, *I'll*
JB> put a curse on you that will make Assmodiddly's piffling attempt on
JJ
JB> look like a reading of Dr. Seuss.
Well if yer gonna curse me with crumbling greenware, don't
bother--already got that one.
... OK, I admit it--_I_ was the one who made those crop circles in England
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Yo...
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:24
EID:2a18 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366390
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 313273c7
DW> 22 Feb 96 16:54, Dawn Kleuser wrote to J.J. Hitt:
DK> Are you some sort of Pagan Occultist? With a name like J.j.
DK> Hitt, I'd wonder.
DW> Please share with us exactly what makes you think the name "J.J. Hitt"
DW> has anything to do with "Pagan Occutism". Maybe an angel told you?
Yeah, I always thought it was a much more fitting name for
a bass player in a metal band.
... "The shortest distance between two puns... is a straight line."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:25
EID:678c 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366391
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3134895e
RB> Is that a subtle clue as to J.J.'s gender?
DM> Not really. I have a suspicion that our dear cash
DM> register repairman sees no connection between the operation
DM> and any particular gender, and I posted in that light . . .
DM> However, J.J. and I may be seeing one another May 1, so
DM> his/her secret may be out (unless I am bribed).
Marty already "outed" him.
... Amish pickup line: "Art thee up for some plowing?"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:25
EID:d711 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366392
REPLY: 1:3611/2 001b7c94
JO> For a way of background on why I want to know... A few years ago, my
JO> wife became a "Born Again Christian" and is constantly bring home crap
JO> about "hidden messages" in music, avertising, etc., etc. These brain-
You have my condolences. Seriously.
JO> wash material would have you believe that nearly every thing good in
JO> this world has satanic roots. I simply want to track down and confirm
JO> any and all information that can show that christianity was created
JO> from the same roots as all other mystical religions. I suspect that
JO> all religions have the same source and just evolved over time. When
I
JO> heard about the possible beginnings of the central cristian ritual of
JO> comminuion, I got REAL excited.
Here's the place for it. We have a few good scholars who
actually get into the real meat of investigating and debunking
all varieties of religious claims.
JO> My wife and I have agreed to disagree on our religious views, but we
JO> still read each other's material and have lively discussions. What
is
JO> really interesting, is that most of her friends simply cannot
JO> understand how I can keep from being a murderer or a rapist without
JO> having "God in my life". They say that they will be a celibration when
JO> I get "saved". I always say that I will throw them a bash when ever
JO> they give up their mystical ways and start using logic and science to
JO> guide their lives!
It's gotta be tough to have such widely divergent viewpoint
occurring after knowing someone for awhile. Still, good luck,
and keep fighting the good fight. :-)
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:40:26
EID:ca14 205dad00
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 31366393
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302c6
> ! Origin: HoneyTree BBS, Misawa-shi Japan (6:731/22.0)
SA> Gracious welcome, Megan! It's not often that we have participants
SA> joining us from Japan.
GR> About as rare as a black poster on Holysmoke, eh?
It almost seems as though you lay the blame on white people
for the apparent lack of black posters. Of course, the two
Muslims we had here in the last year never mentioned their
race (not that they stuck around that long). Perhaps the
issue of religion just isn't something black participants in
Fido are interested in. I've chatted with a handful of black
people on other echoes (including FLAME, which is the net's
haven for bigotry) and in spite of potentially religiously-
colored issues like abortion and politics, I really don't
remember religion being something that wormed its way into
the discussion.
I've asked the same question (not on the echo, but to myself),
but I don't see where this echo would be particularly unaccom-
odating to blacks. There are other echoes (FLAME and CONTROV,
to name two) which have deliberately racist people, and they
still draw black posters. I really don't think the problem
with representation is the fault of the echo.
... If Jack helped you off a horse, would you help Jack off a horse?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Charles Sumner
|To: All
|Sub: Church&State Echo
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:56:06
EID:5ebc 205daf00
MSGID: 1:2613/240.0 31366745
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: GE 1.11+
The Fidonet echo called Church&State has had limited distribution for several
months. Now I am informed that it is back in full distribution. However,
I suspect that there are numerous nodes which will need to be reminded of
its availability again.
If you are on Fidonet, I would like to suggest that you ask your sysop to
obtain Church&State from the backbone.
This is a topic which has increasing importance because of the political
activity of the Religious Right. During this presidential election year
the relationship between church and state may be one of the most significant
issues of the campaign. Some authorities claim that nearly half of the
state Republican organizations are now controlled by the Christian Coalition.
Church&State is a moderated echo, and participants are requested to avoid
lengthy theological discussions and stick to the relationships which should
exist between religious groups and government.
Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
CHARLES SUMNER, Moderator; 1:2613/240 or 270; sumner@rochgte.fidonet.org
... Preserve religious liberty: keep church and state separate!
--- GEcho 1.11+
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Violating physics -- use a condom. Staal
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:28:34
EID:a68d 205d7380
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 231c571b
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2fe
On 25 Feb 96, Fredric Rice wrote:
FR> to you. You fancy yourself as another Galileo.
b> Ah. That particular form of erroneous mental garbage is
b> called, by cognitive scientists, "jumping to conclusions."
FR> You're only being dishonest to yourself, John. Like any Creationist,
jb> Had you said "a" instead of "any," I'd have passed
jb> it, but since you didn't: I am not a creationist.
FR> Er, yes, you _are_ a Creationist. You adopt an occultic superstition
FR> and then cast about in desperation to find evidence you can use which
FR> could be lied about to support your delusion. You pick words and
FR> phrases you can't understand and concoct wild and elaborate fantasies
FR> and call it a "theory."
(*sigh*) As an exercise in typing, I'm going to take that apart for the
readership:
FR> Er, yes, you _are_ a Creationist.
I am not a creationist. Creationists believe God created the Universe.
I believe it appeared by itself, and thus "created" God.
FR> You adopt an occultic superstition
I adopt no superstitions, nor is any of the information I use "hidden"
("occultic"). It's all right out there available to the reading public,
in the peer-reviewed scientific literature.
FR> and then cast about in desperation to find evidence you can use which
I cast about for no evidence. The evidences that were there in my
reading --for an _entirely_unrelated_ purpose-- "forced themselves" on
me. I was NOT LOOKING for evidence usable as indications of the
existence of God, nor, since the above is true, is it thinkable that I
was or am "desperate" about any of it.
FR> could be lied about
I do not lie. There's no purpose in lying.
FR> to support your delusion.
The idea is an idea, not a delusion. In all cases, ignoring facts is
delusionary. I do not ignore facts. Creationists often ignore facts,
but since I am not a creationist, I don't have to. The facts speak for
themselves. Some people hold belief systems more powerful than facts,
such as the belief system you appear to hold....
FR> You pick words and phrases you can't understand
I understand the words and phrases I read. If I read them, and they
apply, I use them. There _are_ some things I don't (not "can't," since
there has never been anything in my history I _could_not_ understand if
I chose to try) understand, but they are all in the field of abstract,
symbol-using mathematics. I don't understand them primarily because I
don't have a translator for the symbols, and don't care to take the
years required to learn them. Heisenberg said that if a thing can't be
described in _language_ (such as English), it probably isn't worth
bothering with. I agree.
FR> and concoct wild and elaborate fantasies
I concoct no fantasies. What I say looks like fantasy to you because
you seem to have neither the background nor the brain to grasp its
meaning. I accept "elaborate," unconnected with "fantasy," since most
deeply-probing ideas require elaboration to the ignorant.
FR> and call it a "theory."
I have _NEVER_ called my God-concept, structure-from-QM experimental
information, a "theory." Please learn the difference between a "theory"
and an "hypothesis."
FR> Ask the ICR for a grant. I'm sure they'll give it to you.
Ask God for a bigger, better brain. _Maybe_ He'll give it to you, or at
least point out the way to the Library.
(Are we having fun now? No? Pity.)
The ICR __HATES__ "theistic evolutionists," as do all Fundie
Creationist Bible-Literalists, and I am an evolutionistic Theist. The
ICR would as soon give me hemlock as give me a grant.
Freddie, go on believing whatever you like, even whatever you like about
_me_, but it'd be better, in general, if you developed the capability to
read someone's text and deduce (with great mental effort, perhaps) that
they mean pretty much what they say.
I am so _far_ from what's commonly called a "creationist," that to
suggest I am one merely reveals an immense gap between your reading and
your comprehension skills, if not between your ears.
(Are we having fun now? Yes? Sure! Opportunity for creative put-down
is sometimes taken, if only for the creative writing exercise.)
ByE!
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Quantum Physics: the Dreams that Stuff is made of.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:53:54
EID:f172 205d76a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 46afe34d
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1332c99a
On 26 Feb 96, John Prewett wrote:
=> Quoting John Brawley <=-
JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
DR> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
JP> As usual, demonstrating your present
JP> complete and total willful ignorance/blindness.
Thank you. Unnecessary, but thank you.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... He who cannot harmonize, sings alone.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Lack of any Evidence whatsoever
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:54:26
EID:9781 205d76c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6f5b542e
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d0b7aaf
On 27 Feb 96, Fredric Rice wrote:
FR> John Brawley
JB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
dr> You mean besides the complete and total lack of evidence for gods?
FR> Yeah, besides that.
Yeah, besides that.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. (Thoreau)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: address
|Date: 29 Feb 96 10:53:55
EID:9745 205d56a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932437D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
I tried to send the list via the Internet and it bounced back to me, so
obviously I don't have your correct address.
I used doosterman@voyager.com. If that's wrong, give me the right one.
If that's right, say so and I'll try again. I may have mis-typed a
character or something. (nit thet i evet makr typigephicsl erroes.)
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Blinded me with scien
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:49:00
EID:5fe7 205d9e20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932437E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Michael Hardy <=-
JP> So we agree asking heathens for evidence is a waste of time. Yes ?
JP>
MH> Of course. Only theists have to actually back up their claims.
KC>
KC> On the specific, positivist claim that "There is a [gG]od", yes, they
KC> do.
KC> It's a very simple and very logical elementary debate rule.
Many theists admit that there is no incontrovertible evidence for God.
(As do I.) And we observe that, while atheists often insist that they
just want evidence, not proof, any evidence offered which is less than
proof is dismissed. As one of my fellow theists put it, any evidence
which is not incontrovertible is swiftly controverted.
JP> [and it's fun watching them adamantly declare
JP> that atheist/heathens have no standards]
MH> And lately, deny that they admitted it. :D
KC> I wasn't aware that I had no standards. Thanks for letting me know.
I wasn't talking about you. I wasn't even aware you existed until I
downloaded this message packet. I was talking about the five on this
echo who have admitted it. (And this is, in fact, an intentional
exaggeration on my part -- what they have admitted is that atheists
claim no common standard, that morality is largely a matter of personal
choice. They then ignore the logical consequences of taking such a view
-- that under such an assumption, nothing can be called "wrong.")
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: names
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:54:00
EID:51f3 205d9ec0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932437F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> A good point, but the more important point is that there should be
MH> better ways for people on either side to communicate than name-calling.
RB> In a gentler, kinder echo, the style of communicating
RB> would be different. But as anyone knows (who's been here
RB> more than 5 minutes), this echo ain't gentle OR kind.
RB> The confrontational atmosphere appeals to some (maybe even
RB> to you, eh Hardy?)
Hey, you want to call me confrontational, you better smile when you say
that, Burcham! :)
MH> Also, "heathen" really isn't a pejorative -- it's a legitimate word
MH> with a legitimate meaning, and non-Christians are heathens, by
MH> definition.
RB> Unlucky for us that most of our culture sees Christians as
RB> the good guys and heathens as the evil-doers. Minorities
RB> simply get no respect.
RB> BTW, the 2nd definition for 'heathen' in my dictionary is
RB> 'any irreligious or uncultivated person'. That would
RB> suggest that the religious are cultivated while the irreligious
RB> are not.
It does? Gee, I always thought "or" indicated two unrelated conditions,
of which only one need apply.
Let's see ... "Conjunction junction, what's your function? Hookin' up
words and phrases and clauses ... "
MH> If it has a negative connotation, it still is a
MH> real word. "Christer," "Jeezoid," etc. *are* slurs,
MH> like "nigger" or "kike."
RB> Not quite. Christianity is a choice (although, considering
RB> the powerful influences of tradition and indoctrination, it
RB> may not be that much of a choice). One's race (with accompanying
RB> physical characteristics) is not a choice. It's the difference
RB> between shouting "Hey, big nose" and "Hey, big dummy"!
Mmmm ... except that "heathen" is an actual technical term. It seems
like it's more like the difference between describing someone as a
caucasian or "whitey."
MH> And truly, I see a number of non-Christians here who seem to think
that
MH> calling such names is the best way to make their points. (Or at
MH> least the best way they're capable of.) Since most of you seem to think
MH> yourselves better than us, it is delicious to watch you degenerate
to
MH> calling us childish names.
RB> Anything an atheist could say pales in comparison to "I'll
RB> see you roasting in hell"! THAT is the biggest obscenity of
RB> all.
I agree. Most likely, those in heaven don't see into hell. :)
... Are you here to serve the truth, or twist the truth to serve you?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: better than
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:57:00
EID:2c2b 205d9f20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324380
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
RB> BTW, we ARE better than you. The total absence of morality
RB> gives us an edge. :)
I saw a comedian once who sang a song that went like this:
Jim Morrison can't sing better than me
I sing better than him
Jimi Hendrix can't play guitar better than me
I play better than him
John Holmes can't make love better than me
I am better than him
Lincoln's not a better leader than me
I lead better than him
Because they're dead.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:59:00
EID:6df5 205d9f60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324381
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> SE> In fact, using your argument one could throw out all but Genesis
KS> since
MH> SE> the rest has obviously just been 'tacked on'.
MH> SE> Weak argument, Michael. I expected better from you.
MH> I'm not sure you even understood the argument, especially as I haven't
MH> made it yet. I was only trying to establish a baseline agreement with
MH> this question.
MH> It seems that the Gospel of Mark's ending, including the part about
MH> handling snakes and drinking poison, was added centuries after the
MH> gospel was written. The oldest and best manuscripts do not have it.
The
MH> earliest manuscripts which do have it date from the Middle Ages.
MH> This was not known to the first English translators of the Bible,
MH> including the King James translators in 1611. The older manuscripts
KS> Michael, are you just being obstinate, or are you really stupid?
I should ask you the same question. You've demonstrated a complete
inability to understand simple points, and this post simply drives that
truth home.
KS> Or do you think the "original" bible just appeared out of nowhere
KS> all intact and complete at some point in the early CE?
No. And nothing I've said should imply that I do.
KS> It is obvious to anyone with an IQ over 7 that the thing has had
KS> additions and deletions with EVERY translation and EVERY 'bugfix'.
Someone who knows nothing about Bible translations perhaps. What's
happened, Karl, is that as time goes on, older manuscripts have been
found, copies closer in time to the original documents than what
earlier translators had available. At the same time, scholars'
understanding of the ancient languages has increased, leading to more
accurate translations of the languages.
I defy you to name ONE addition or deletion that isn't directly the
result of one of those two things.
KS> I had begun to think you had a modicum of sense, but this latest
KS> really makes me doubt it.
Back at you. Since you're so full of yourself in your certainty, it
shouldn't be a challenge to you to fulfill my request 100-fold.
Not that I plan to hold my breath.
... ...... Click ... click ... click ... damn, out of taglines!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: fat babies have no pride
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:07:00
EID:ab4c 205da0e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324382
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> So long as you arbitrarily define who is and isn't part of humanity,
MH> you need never feel guilty of a crime against humanity. If you ever
MH> decide you want to do away with someone, just come up with a
MH> definition of person that excludes them.
KD> Birth is not arbitrary.
Proclaiming that birth is the dividing line between personhood and
non-person is very arbitrary.
Do you support legal abortion through all nine months of pregnancy?
... Definition of Fundy: Changes frequently; call for current version.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:08:00
EID:498a 205da100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324383
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> SA> The people at Jonestown and Waco also suffered and died for what
MH> SA> they believed in, and they were contemporary to the leaders of
MH> SA> their groups. Just because someone lived at the same time,
MH> SA> Michael, does not mean that they are knowledgeable about what
MH> SA> has gone on in that time from someone else's perspective.
MH>
MH> I've made this point about a thousand times, and no one ever
MH> seems to grasp it. Once more:
MH>
MH> The resurrection of Jesus was an EVENT!! It was not a claim, such as
MH> the claims made by Koresh or Jim Jones.
KDM> It is a *claim* of an event, Mike.
And well-attested to by what evidence we have available -- mainly the
fact that people who lived very close in time and space to the event
believed it. That is, those most in a position to know it wasn't true
believed it was true.
The claims of Jones and Koresh, in contrast, are not even *claims* of
events. They are claims, period.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: your ignorance
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:10:00
EID:0d05 205da140
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324384
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Michael Hardy <=-
GR> Feel free to explore Mark 16:15-18. My science against your beliefs.
GR> Belly up to the bar moron. Mark 16:15-18, I'll pour. Feel free to
GR> believe in
GR> the Book.
GR> Mark 16:15-18. Debate that. Your Book says that you aren't a
GR> Christian.
I've discussed this several times, though I don't think I have with
you.
Mark 16:15-18 -- indeed, the entire ending of Mark from 16:9 on -- is
not part of the original gospel. It does not occur in any manuscripts
until the Middle Ages. It is not Scripture. Therefore, your challenge
is moot.
Note that I am NOT basing this on the fact that the passage is
inconvenient, but on the fact that there's simply no indication it
existed for 1,000 years or so after the Gospel was written.
Other skeptics have agreed this is true, but have said your challenge
is appropriate for Christians who insist every word of the Bible AS WE
HAVE IT NOW is infallible. Perhaps. But I make no such insistence, so
it does not apply to me.
Knowing that I have a less rigid approach to Scripture than some
Christians, you have three options, as I see it.
1. You can admit that I have an intelligent approach, and hit me with a
better challenge.
2. (The one I expect you to take) You can stamp your feet in
frustration and whine about "salad bar Christianity," because you
simply have no clue how to argue with a Christian who isn't a
Fundamentalist.
3. You can ignore this post altogether, knowing you lack the
intelligence to handle an educated Christian. (If you don't choose
option 2, then I expect you'll choose this one.)
Which one you choose will have a great deal of influence on my decision
to either continue this exchange or twit you.
Have a nice day.
... Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: fax
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:21:00
EID:231e 205da2a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324385
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Karl, this is what the word means according to a Hebrew-English
MH> dictionary. You are arguing with objective truth here, which is a
MH> pretty stupid thing to do.
KS> No, I am arguing with the contention that your Bible is allegedly
KS> inspired by God. If it were, and if God existed, it wouldn't be full
KS> of fuckups.
MH> MH> You can continue insisting it's an error if you like, but if you
do,
MH> MH> you'll be contradicting facts.
MH> KS> It's an error. It plainly says what it says and it's wrong. TS.
MH> What the Hebrew word means in Hebrew is what it means, period, and it
MH> is correct.
KS> Bullshit. I know for sure there's a Hebrew word for 'bat' and I'll
KS> find it when I get time.
There is. There is also an English word for "sparrow," but that doesn't
mean sparrows aren't also birds.
Do you understand language, Karl? "Bird" is a collective noun -- it
covers a large number of animals that are bound together by certain
similarities, but are also different in some ways. Collective nouns
can be more or less specific.
For example: "1996 Ford Taurus" is specific. "1996 Fords" is less
specific. "Fords" is even less so. "American-made cars" even less.
"Cars" even less.
There is a word for "Ford," but Fords are also cars. The fact that
there's a more specific word doesn't mean it's not part of the general
group.
The Hebrew word "uwph" does NOT mean exactly the same thing that the
English word "bird" does. It is more general. Bats and birds are both
*uwph*, even though they have little common besides being animals
bigger than insects that fly. (Airplanes and helicopters are quite
different, but both are "aircraft.")
Now, if you are still stupidly stubborn enough to insist that it's a
mistake, you can have fun talking to yourself. This is as clear as I
can make the point, and a third-grader would understand it. If you
don't, it simply isn't worth my time to continue arguing with you.
But for the record: This information comes from a Hebrew/English
reference work -- Strong's Concordance -- and is NOT merely my opinion.
... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mimi Milstein
|Sub: face value
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:31:00
EID:5aea 205da3e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324386
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mimi Milstein to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> That's a fairly common conclusion drawn by many Christians.
MH> However, you'll find that most of the atheists on Holy
MH> Smoke take the Bible much more literally than many
MH> Christians do. ;-)
MM> I agree :-) this is a very confrontational echo - come Hell or
MM> high water, everybody has to hammer everybody else - if it makes
MM> sense or not.
MM> I, personally, tend to take side whith the "scientific community'
MM> and thus have problems in taking things on face value [as being
MM> recommended by the Christians]
I don't think Christians suggest taking anything at face value.
Examples?
... Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Luke
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:38:00
EID:f71b 205da4c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324387
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Elliott Finesse <=-
EF> All objectively true and verifiable? Wow, that sure would be something
EF> to see! One thing puzzles me. Why all this other who-ha and dancing
EF> around if you have such rock solid evidence as that? Verifiable? I'm
EF> impressed. History is the weakest science.
AS> An example. Many in the German school of theology (very skeptical)
AS> dated John's Gospel around 200 AD, and thought it a late forgery. They
AS> basically were following their own agenda, that the Gospels were late
AS> additions to the growing beliefs of followers, and making assumptions
AS> to fit their theories. This was in the last century.
AS> Then they found fragments of John's Gospel in Egypt dated about 125
AS> AD. Oops.
AS> There is some evidence that the Gospel of Matthew is pretty old,
AS> also. A recent claim by a specialist in Egyptian writings claim the
AS> style of writing for the Gospel of Matthew contains a telltale,
AS> upright Greek writing that was going out of style in the first
AS> century. The press originally claimed he gave it a date of around 70
AS> AD, and so it was first reported in the international edition of TIME.
AS> However, when he actually presented the paper, he revised his estimate
AS> upwards to around the turn of the first century (100 AD) which is
AS> still reasonably recent. Far better than anything we have of any other
AS> ancient documents.
Have I ever given you the summary argument for dating the entire New
Testament (save possibly Revelation and Hebrews) before a.d. 70?
... SEX education? I thought this was SECTS education!
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: al
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:40:00
EID:0736 205da500
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324388
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Oosterman to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> Right. But the WEIRD thing is, Micheal (at least on Sunday afternoon)
AS> could not see me, though he lives in nearby Alabama. But good to hear
AS> from you, at least, Dave. So they can now see me in Michigan? That
AS> means Asmodiddly can now see me insulting him?
DO> Chatted with Michael (note the spelling :) this weekend. He sees you
DO> now.
Yeah, finally got that surveillance camera working ... :)
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: fred
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:41:00
EID:b305 205da520
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89324389
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Dave Oosterman to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> You two cultists would probably be happy in Iran -- you know, "one
FR> nation under god."
DO> Dear Fred,
DO> Does it suck to not have a life?
Is it life to not have a suck?
(Forget I said that ... ) ;-)
... NO CARRIER... A naval aviator's worst nightmare ...
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: churches
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:44:00
EID:d5aa 205da580
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932438A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
MB> On (25 Feb 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Dan Ceppa...
AS> They tested okay, but they said the real test would be
AS> putting it in.
Yeah, that's when you find out if she *really* likes you! ;-)
... To live without passion is to begin to die.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:45:00
EID:c943 205da5a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8932438B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to All <=-
AM> Okay, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I am up to the
RB> Would everyone PLEASE quit throwing down the GOD-DAMNED GAUNTLET?!
It could be worse. They could be sending a message, or fighting for the
heart and soul of the Republican party.
Avoid cliches like the plague. :)
... Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|To: Roland
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:22:24
EID:c7fc 205daac0
MSGID: 3:711/933 31361950
Dear Roland,
R> Dinosaur teeth marks have been found on smaller fossils indicating that
R> dinosaurs preyed on them. Had humans existed at that point in time, it
R> is logical to conclude that humans also would have been prey; and would
R> be found with teeth and claw marks. Since no human remains have ever
R> been found with these marks it is also logical to conclude that
R> dinosaurs and humans never co-existed on this planet.
Not even though human and dinosoar footprints are found together.
Kind regards,
Anthony Grigor-Scott
--- GoldED/386 2.50.Beta5+
* Origin: Bible Believers BBS (61)-2-809-3723 West Ryde (3:711/933)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Ducks?
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:47:05
EID:b557 205d75e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367C9D
DW> Do ducks try to prohibit people from doing with their bodies as they
DW> wish? Do ducks try to prohibit free expression of ideas? Do ducks
DW> burn books? Do ducks waddle around trying to get all other creatures
DW> to become ducks?
Nope, all ducks don't anyway. However, one duck will fight off other ducks
that are from a different pond. What I see in the world is a lot of people
arguing about things, and pushing things that are usually the same things
described in different terms. Seems wasteful to me.
DW> If these Christians/ducks were content to let others live their lives
DW> as they saw fit, you'd see a lot less rock throwing.
That I strongly support! That NO faith should run others or inforce their
views on others. I feel each person should make those choices for themselves.
If we spent more time trying to get our own lives and behavior as we choose
it to be, there'd be a lot less time to spend pushing our views on others.
I just want to make sure, that I do not echo the behavior of those that
I can not approve of. I don't care, from which faith a person comes....
I admire those who respect others expression of faith, and am disappointed
when I run across those who scream "My way or the highway!"
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Big bird
|Date: 29 Feb 96 19:49:59
EID:deb6 205d9e20
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367C9E
FR> Actually, Jim, any hate group you can point to which hates blacks and
FR> gays is going to be a Christanic group -- one of _your_ ideological
FR> friends. Hatred and bigotry is nearly the venue of the deity
FR> religious.
Have you ever realized how discrimination is deeply engrained in our culture?
Sadly, I watched a child singing along with Big Bird, "One of these things.
is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong" Scarey
thoughts. Regardless of the religious connotations, discrimination and
intollerance begins it's training very early in innocent ways all through
our society.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Quotes
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:01:22
EID:8df4 205da020
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367C9F
FR> HOW TO USE FEAR TO CONTROL THE IGNORANT
FR> Read: Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922
I've been reading your postings of these little quotes. I would love to
know it there is a book that has these quotes arranged in such a wonderfully
obvious manner. If there is, I want a copy!
I admire the patience you show. When I say I do not agree with the spreading
of hate mongering under the name of religion, I'm referring to exactly this
type of material. I think this type of response is much more effective
than the name calling and attacks on character that I see so often.. Thanks.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Abusers
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:23:08
EID:fc6e 205da2e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367CA0
LB> lessons inhow to be a successful abuser, but the FIRST step is to
LB> convince your victim
LB> Thus the abusers first set themselves up as PROTECTOR from the bad
LB> cruelworld, and deny access (or the ability to gain access) to any
Been there, done that and you are exactly right on how it works. Took me
a number of years to reverse the process. Now I'm just left with a rather
noticible reaction when one person begins the CONTROL movements.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:25:48
EID:2cc3 205da320
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367CA1
JA> again. Only people may find that I've changed from the fundy I used
JA> to be. Doya think any one would be interested? nah...probably not.
I might be interested in how, and why you have changed. I once was a fundy
myself.... then I got better.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Changes
|Date: 29 Feb 96 20:27:55
EID:6a6b 205da360
MSGID: 1:352/266 31367CA2
JA> You can call them what you like. I'm not willing to totally bash
JA> Christianity, nor will I ever. I find it morally wrong to criticize
JA> others for their beliefs. But you could say I have been thinking a
JA> lot.:)
Yep, thinking can be like taking off a set of blinders. Try to not swap
one set for another. I agree that spending time bashing others is wasteful.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 29 Feb 96 23:46:40
EID:e578 205dbdc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8003e
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3133afb2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
AM> Creator of the universe. No matter what troubles there are, I have
AM> a real peace and joy.
Uh huh. Tell us, thumb-sucking fundy...what are UNreal peace and joy supposed
to feel like?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal lies again!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 23:46:55
EID:dd53 205dbdc0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8003f
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 b5ab11cd
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Jim Staal wrote in a message to Styx Allum:
> .....FYI, Jim, Lon, Br.Jimmy and the rest of the alais'
> have left the echo for good
SA> We've heard this story before. We know how it (never) ends.
SA> Jimbo has already slipped up a couple of times.
JS> Only once, sir...ok...this twice.
Shut up, Jimmy! When we want the raving of an ignorant Xtian scum to pollute
this echo...we'll simply take you down off the meat-hook and ungag you.
Now, get ready to slip up three times.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hardy pretends there's nothing wrong
|Date: 29 Feb 96 23:29:49
EID:4230 205dbba0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8003d
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1d113728
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to All:
FR> If so, then I believe the innocent children who, unfortunately,
FR> lost their physical lives, gain eternal life in heaven and thus
FR> aren't punished at all. - Michael Hardy
FR> To all Christians: He's one of yours.
"Oooooohhhh... I don't want him - you can have him
"He's too dumb for meeeeeeee
"He's just a fun-dieeeeee...
"Ig-nor-ant as can beeeee."
"Ooooohhhhhh... I don't want him - you can have him
"His name is Har-deeeeee
"A big dis-grace to the hu-man race...
"He's too dumb for meeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 29 Feb 96 14:52:46
EID:465b 205d7680
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 135ff594
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef324
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
> Waco Rememberance will start 1pm Saturday March 2, 1996 in Austin, Texas
> on the south side of the Texas State Capital at 11th and Congress.
FR> Are you clowns going to blow up another federal building
FR> this year?
Not me, nor any Waco protester that I know. We believe that the taking
of innocent life, as happened at Waco, can't be protested by taking MORE
innocent life.
Gosh Frederic, you sure have carried your prejudice and hatred a long time.
Don't you think we should do something about these govt tank drivers, our
employees, who are still at large:
"I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and children
and having a big tank coming through the front door. And they penetrated
a
room's length or more... This is America. This isn't a police state. I
don't
care what they did. I can't see that. And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't
realize the tanks had done that until I was shown by the govenment," she
said.
- Juror at trial of surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press
story in Mar 1, 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
Some of the children we were 'saving' DIED this way.
Should the 'tank' drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges because
they
'were just following orders?'
Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have been NO
criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
ENJOY,
Terry
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 29 Feb 96 15:29:32
EID:53c3 205d7ba0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 135ff596
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef326
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Norbert Sykes:
TL> PROHIBITS THE USE OF INDECENT SPEECH ONLINE AND ANOTHER THAT
TL> BARS DISCUSSION OF ABORTION ON THE INTERNET. THE PRESIDENT,
FR>
FR> Usually TLP posts these wild extremist anti-government
FR> "pronouncements" about Waco, Texas, or Ruby Ridge.
Huh?!? How did you get on that from the govt's AbortionSpeak ban?
FR> He and his little band parade back and forth in front of
FR> government offices calling for the arrests of the people
FR> inside.
Have you been tripping to 'Fantasy Island' again?
FR> I wouldn't mind seeing Janet Reno tried for treason against the
FR> State
A shared fantasy perhaps.
ns> Isn't the reason they don't leave just that they believe they have
ns> ownership or entitlement to this country? Yokels. Go figure.
Whose this mysterious 'they?'
I thought I was alone at the keybourd when I cross-posted that item about
the AbortionSpeak ban (remember, the actual subject of this thread of conversation).
You must be one of those people that conjures up a conspiracy at the drop
of a hat. Are you one of those paranoid conspiranouts?
ENJOY,
Terry
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1
SEEN-BY: 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Joan would like to clear up some misunderstandings
|Date: 28 Feb 96 19:53:00
EID:6d0d 205c9ea0
-> I'm NOT giving up. - Joanna Amren (Commenting about HolySmoke)
->
-> I know I said I wouldn't leave HolySmoke, but I can now see
-> why everyone else does....ya'll are hopeless! - Joanna Amren
->
-> Welcome back! When you fled this forum perhaps you were laboring
-> under a perception of "giving up" that you have since replaced with
-> another, prompting you to return. Reguardless of why, I'm happy that
-> you _did_ return. We missed you and your insight greatly.
->
-> ja> I still insist that I am not an idiot.:)
-> ja> I could have been...then...but not now.
->
-> Does that mean you have recognized the lack of evidence for deity
-> constructs an have come over to the side of light, logic, and reason?
->
-> ja> Find a differnt person to pick on.
->
-> Interesting. You want to pretend you're being picked on, huh?
-> There's an easy solution to refrain from making it into the quotes
-> archives, Joan: Learn from your mistakes.
Gee, I was a real dummy, huh? I got a good laugh out of that,
believe it or not!:) I don't know what I was thinking. But of course,
that's just it...I don't think I WAS thinking. In fact, I wasn't,
'cause I said I wasn't so I guess I wasn't was I?
Oh, and I'm so sure you missed my insight. Missed having me to
pick on. I admit, I can see where the humor of it all was. But I'm
back now, and no longer a fundy, if you can believe that.:) I think if
you want your evidence of that which you're so fond of, it's in my
simple statement that I am NOT a fundy anymore.:) Think??
Well, I'm sure I'm probably making a fool out of myself yet agian, so
I'l just let ya go for now.:)
TTYL!
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Joan would like to clear up some misunderstandings
|Date: 28 Feb 96 20:16:00
EID:6d0d 205ca200
-> A great many people are added to the quotes archives, Joan. Let's
-> see what
BTW, my name is Joanna.:) I hate being called Joan. It just sounds so
dull!:)
Just thought I'd clear that up.:)
JoannA
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 29 Feb 96 16:57:12
EID:34db 205d8720
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3136e7a6
REPLY: 1:3611/2 001b7c94
Jim Owens said "Comminuion" to Don Martin,
adding:
JO> For a way of background on why I want to know... A few years ago, my
JO> wife became a "Born Again Christian" and is constantly bring home crap
JO> about "hidden messages" in music, avertising, etc., etc. These brain-
My condolences.
JO> wash material would have you believe that nearly every thing good in
JO> this world has satanic roots. I simply want to track down and confirm
JO> any and all information that can show that christianity was created
JO> from the same roots as all other mystical religions.
The classic work in this field is Sir James Frazer, The
Golden Bough. 13 volumes (abridgements are available). This
topic is routinely treated in good college level courses on
mythology.
JO> I suspect that
JO> all religions have the same source and just evolved
JO> over time.
What single source have you in mind? None of us wicked
old atheists here will argue with a source grounded in human
psychology (the world is a scary place, and religions are
created to reduce the impact of the fear), but we shall all
put up a good fight with the notion of a single source deity
going under a great number (330 million in the Hindu
pantheon alone) of aliases.
JO> My wife and I have agreed to disagree on our religious views, but we
JO> still read each other's material and have lively discussions. What
is
JO> really interesting, is that most of her friends simply cannot
JO> understand how I can keep from being a murderer or a rapist without
JO> having "God in my life".
Probably because most of them suppose that they,
themselves, would start cutting throats were they not scared
shitless of their great boogeyman in the sky. Personally, I
cannot think as badly of them as they do.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: The Constellation
|Date: 01 Mar 96 13:12:39
EID:4488 20616980
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31372ff1
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62dcd03c
J.J. Hitt said "The Constellation" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> We'll do tea, then. Did you get my netmail a week or so
DM> ago? If so, I'll NM you my voice numbers.
JH> Futz! No, I didn't get any NetMail in the last week. But the mail
JH> has been more irregular than normal down here lately.
Sending another in this packet. If you can do email, my
address below works.
JH>> It'll be my first time there since 1979.
DM> I am credibly informed that it has changed since then.
JH> Did you ever get a subway?
Yup. Not that I've even been on it. It heads north and
west from Charles and Lombard, and I go south.
JH> I'm saving the real shocks for when
JH> I hit DC. I was looking through the CD-ROM phone directory and
JH> discovered that the townhouse that was the DC office of the Youth
JH> International Party (the Yippies) is now an office of...
JH>
JH> THE SALVATION ARMY.
JH> I lived and worked there for the better part of 1978. I wonder if
JH> the current residents have any idea of some of the shit that used
JH> to go on in that house. I'll be tempted to go in and tell them a
JH> few war stories.
Salivation Army types are likely to be too out of it to
know what you're talking about -- they'll probably think you
are mispronouncing "yuppies".
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
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SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000 1041
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|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Al Schroeder
|Date: 01 Mar 96 13:12:39
EID:18f6 20616980
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31372ff2
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 62df4f7c
J.J. Hitt said "Al Schroeder" to Don Martin,
adding:
JH>> But, but, but.... I don't even OWN a cash register!
DM> Wanna buy one?
JH> Can I use it to log onto the Beast computer in Brussels?
No, but when you hit "No Sale", it whacks your
clitoris (or anything you may chance to have in that
vicinity) off and autodials a repairman to witness the
results.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/0 1 662 669 1000 1041
SEEN-BY: 261/1082 1137 1180 1181 1350 2000 2600 3010 3015 3050 3060 3090
SEEN-BY: 261/3900 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 01 Mar 96 13:12:40
EID:2972 20616980
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 31372ff3
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893110DB
Dan Ceppa said "FOF UPDATE, STAAL" to Steve Wallis,
adding:
SM> > Focus on the Family is a Christian organization
SM> A CROOKED Christian profit-making business masquerading as a
SW> I doubt it. More like a well established Christian organization that
SW> has stood its ground when attacked by the whimsical antics of the devil
SW> and his demons.
DC> Got any evidence for those demons, let alone the devil that you
DC> so fear, Stevie?
DC> Go hide in your closet until you get Ruptured.
Haven't you heard? Those who have contaminated
themselves by using computers will not GET raptured. We'll
just have to go on putting up with the miserable little
shits.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10
SEEN-BY: 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: CPU PARTS
|Date: 01 Mar 96 08:36:00
EID:9092 20614480
Al, if there's any of these parts that would make your life easier, let
me
know.
-=> Quoting Damien Wellman to Don Ward <=-
DW> price? What's next, a 2400 baud modem for $100?
Nope...a guy here in Charleston advertising AOL disks for $1.00 each.
Speaking of that, now that I have my new system...I have a 486sx motherboard
with 4mb RAM, 2400/9600 fax modem (on the motherboard) plus a sound board,
2x CDROM, sound card....actually it's a whole system with the exception
of
a hard drive, monitor and keyboard. Think I could get $1500 for it?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: PHAROAH
|Date: 01 Mar 96 07:08:00
EID:6343 20613900
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Wrong. Pharaoh hardened his own heart after the first five plagues.
DC> Why the next seven plagues, Mikey? Can't your god do anything
Can someone tell me what bible Mike is reading? Mine says pretty clearly
that GOD told Moses '*I* will harden his heart against you'. Not just once,
but a couple of times. The plagues weren't even necessary as the pharaoh
was ready to let them go and say 'good riddance' a couple of times. If you
read the bible, though, it says that GOD made him change his mind on those
occasions.
Sort of like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 01 Mar 96 07:15:00
EID:1d5c 206139e0
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Katherine Wintersnight <=-
DC> I think I'll lock her in the closet until she turns 21... ;)
Better yet, send her to your mother-in-law until then. After all,
she has already had the experience of raising at least one daughter.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49
SEEN-BY: 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423
SEEN-BY: 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308
SEEN-BY: 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777
SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: I'm working on it
|Date: 01 Mar 96 07:33:00
EID:9fa8 20613c20
I'm having to retype everything due to some glitches in this new system
that won't allow me to restore backups created by the old one. Until I
learn how to make the proper associations that will allow everything to
work properly, retyping seems the shortest course.
Yes, George, they installed Win95 on my new system. So far, I am not a
happy camper, but am afraid of trashing everything else if I try to
uninstall it.
Look for snail mail sometime in the next 2 weeks.
... ...The Ron & Nancy Reagan Computer: No colon, no period, no memory.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 01 Mar 96 08:13:00
EID:cbcf 206141a0
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Mark Staal <=-
MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a weakened
MS> body, Pneumonia.
I didn't see this in the original due to the computer being in the shop.
I know it is late and I hope you will understand. My condolences to you
and your family. It is never easy to lose someone you love.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 01 Mar 96 08:21:00
EID:6a4f 206142a0
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> Many cultists today try to force their occultism into the public
FR> schools in an attempt to staunch the flow of blood, so-to-speak, that
MM> as enriching. What I see damaging is when it is presented in such a
way
MM> that people are forced to adhere to a particular viewpoint rather than
You DO realize that you just paraphrased what Fred said, don't you?
Unfortunately, the Religious Right IS trying to take over what is taught
in public schools so that it will adhere to THEIR dogma. Truth and facts
be damned.
Creationism does NOT belong in a science class and one religion's prayers
should not be expected of all, regardless of their affiliation (or lack
of)
to whatever religion.
The ONLY way to do that is to keep ALL religion out of the forums that are
paid for by ALL taxpayers. It's the only thing that is fair and works.
... Cats! Reincarnated Fundies. They refuse to go quietly.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: CPU PARTS
|Date: 01 Mar 96 06:56:00
EID:3955 20613700
Al, if there's any of these parts that would make your life easier, let
me
know.
-=> Quoting Damien Wellman to Don Ward <=-
DW> price? What's next, a 2400 baud modem for $100?
Nope...a guy here in Charleston advertising AOL disks for $1.00 each.
Speaking of that, now that I have my new system...I have a 486sx motherboard
with 4mb RAM, 2400/9600 fax modem (on the motherboard) plus a sound board,
2x CDROM, sound card....actually it's a whole system with the exception
of
a hard drive, monitor and keyboard. Think I could get $1500 for it?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 330 107/411 941
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Robert Pearson
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Principia Discordia
|Date: 01 Mar 96 01:00:18
EID:ff5f 20610800
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 136a1cb0
CHRS: IBMPC 2
On Fri Feb 23, 1996 (22:11), Damien Wellman wrote about Our Daily Bread:
DW> Just wondering, Sue: Do you know if an ASCII-text version of the
DW> Principia exists?
Yes, but it's not nearly as nice as the printed version IMHO.
DW> If so, where could I get it?
I have it here in my BBS "TEXT" file area (for download) or for FREQ 23
hours/day. Please note carefully the filename of the zip file (FREQing
PRINCIPIA or PRINCIPIA.ZIP will _not_ work).
> PRINCIPA.ZIP An ascii only version on the Principia Discordia
Robert (sysop of The Sacred Scribe)
--- timEd/2 1.10+
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34+ (1:121/45)
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|From: Robert Pearson
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Principia Discordia
|Date: 01 Mar 96 01:12:11
EID:0bce 20610980
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 136a1cb2
REPLY: 1:352/266 3135611C
CHRS: IBMPC 2
On Thu Feb 29, 1996 (02:39), Masochistic Maiden wrote about Isbn's:
SA> PRINCIPIA DISCORDIA
SA> Transcribed to 1's and 0's by Druel the Chaotic, WPI Discordian
SA> Society Cabal of the Unemployed
MM> Darn! And we take Loompanics. I'll have to go looking for this one
MM> again. The Principia I've got, but the one saying Cabal of the
MM> Unemployed! That I want.
Same Principia sans the nice graphics found in the printed book (FWIW I
have both). The "Cabal of the Unemployed" that you are quoting seems to
just be a short intro by the person who typed the stuff into an ascii file
(which is legal, as the Principia is specifically _NOT_ Copywrited)....
BTW: If you want the ascii version, I have it here for FREQ or download
from my "TEXT" file area (be careful of the filename, it's easy to incorrectly
type it in):
> PRINCIPA.ZIP An ascii only version on the Principia Discordia
Robert
--- timEd/2 1.10+
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34+ (1:121/45)
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|From: Megan Allen
|To: Eric Hendrix
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 01 Mar 96 20:46:08
EID:1225 2061a5c0
MSGID: 6:731/22 3137ac16
EH> Well, I won't deny that I've had the urge a time or two! :) But, my
EH> beliefin God is the big reason I never have. I don't believe He wants
EH> us to kill
EH> people to get his point across, just tell them how we feel about it.
So, if you didn't believe in god, do you think you would kill someone?
Or.. do you think people who don't believe in him would kill someone? Or
maybe people who kill don't really believe in god? Megan
---
* SPITFIRE v3.5 HoneyTree BBS, Misawa, Aomori Japan
--- SFScan v2.6 (beta)
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|From: Megan Allen
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 01 Mar 96 20:49:38
EID:ca16 2061a620
MSGID: 6:731/22 3137ac17
SA> Gracious welcome, Megan! It's not often that we have participants
SA> joining us from Japan. I hope you enjoy HolySmoke. Always happy
SA> to have another continent joining in on all the fun. :)
Thanks.. Always happy to talk to others in another country.. preferably,
the states.. grin. Megan
---
* SPITFIRE v3.5 HoneyTree BBS, Misawa, Aomori Japan
--- SFScan v2.6 (beta)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 27 Feb 96 09:08:00
EID:f65a 205b4900
MSGID: 047134E2
AS> Partly it has to do with the fact that He is the Creator. Does
AS> someone who INVENTS a game cheat at it? For instance, if the creator
AS> of Monopoly
AS> decided to do a move differently than he has been, is he cheating?
MB> I'd say no. He can't change them and still make others suffer
MB> the old penalties for playing by the new rules. To make rules
MB> that only apply to others, have eternal consequences (only for
MB> others, of course), and then break those same rules with
MB> impunity is clearly an ethical problem. In the real world we
MB> call that a sociopath.
I think you are anticipating. Elliot was asking if God can do something
immoral. I was saying that any laws that a Creator sets up are, by
definition, moral for that cosmos. The same way the rules a creator of a
game makes is "moral" for that game. If God were a divine sadist, we would
probably ALL aspire to sadism, being reflections of the bias of our
creator. So our highest ideals would be reflected in the Creator. Although
many things are socially relative, nobody BUT a sociopath feels no guilt
about harming others without reason, for instance.
Now, in another post to Elliot, I did argue...which I think is more what
you are addressing...that the rules for the Creator is not the same as the
Created. In fact, I think that is explicitly stated in the Bible, in the
"vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord" and all that. "Judge not lest ye be
judged." Ultimately, every death happens due to the laws the Creator set
up, just as every evil is PERMITTED by the freedom which God gives us to
act as we choose. So in that sense, God IS the author of death and evil.
(As He is the author of life and good.) Or as I and my wife created our
three children, and thus are ultimately responsible for their being here.
If you think that hypocritical or sociopathic, I don't. I have already
made to you the comparison of the adult's ability as opposed to a
child's...that a child can be forbidden to handle rat poison whereas an
adult can with impunity, for instance. But it is actually a greater gulf
than that. A tiger doesn't act immorally by killing, for instance, but
acts very morally--for a tiger.
If we imagine a God bound by His rules given to us...and remember, He
never said, _I_ may not kill, just "thou shalt not kill"--then there would
be no death. Period. With the resulting population pressures, misery,
germs and insects multiplying without limit, and the general chaos that
would result. At least in the physical world we observe, death is a
necessity to make way for new life.
Kant argued, in essence, although not buying into any ontological
"proof" of God, that the justice we desire at heart, which is not
addressed in this world, must have an outlet somewhere...hence an
afterlife, and a God to create it. I suspect he is arguing from what he
WANTS to believe, rather than pure logic, but his arguments, as summarized
by Martin Gardner in his WHYS OF A PHILOSOPHICAL SCRIVENER are
interesting. (I must admit even my eyes glaze over halfway through Kant's
usual stuff, although now that I know what to look for, I may give him
another try.)
AS> Those are his rules. If he doesn't like them, he can change
AS> them. If the inventor of Monopoly wanted to change the way
AS> the game is played, he doesn't "cheat" by changing the rules.
MB> But if he changes them only for himself while insisting that
MB> everybody else must play by the old rules or suffer immeasurably,
MB> he's a liar and a fool. He'll not get others to abide by his
MB> interestingly flexible "rules," and he'll make a fool of himself
MB> by his insistence that they do.
Again, I was arguing about changing the rules before the game...i.e.,
before time began, in the actual example we are talking about. However,
I
DO think there is an actual qualitative difference between God and us, and
our role in the "game"--the same way a queen in chess can make many moves
that are denied to a pawn, a castle, or a bishop. I do NOT think God
changes His morality with time. But that the "morality" that humans aspire
to, that they would perceive as the greatest good for the greatest number
of people, would be affected by the morality the creator chooses for, and
must reflect that. (I do, on the other hand, think God's revelation to us
about His standards must change somewhat with time as WE change with time,
the same way I saddle different responsibilities on a two-year-old, a
ten-year-old, and a twenty-five-year-old. I haven't changed. My standards
haven't changed. What I think the level of maturity of the person I am
saddling the responsibilites with HAS.)
Ahhhh....like old times, isn't it?
... Why do Chinese philosophers always try to Confusius?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Luke
|Date: 27 Feb 96 09:02:00
EID:1a74 205b4840
MSGID: 04718AD2
EF> Sure! If you know of any conservative historian working today who
EF> would insist that Jesus absolutely existed without question please
EF> tell me who and summarize his or her reasons for thinking so. Two or
EF> three notarized testimonials by virgin albino Rabbis would also be
EF> nice. No rush. Tomorrow is plenty soon enough.
EF> (touche Mike!)
May I?
Michael Grant. Author of JESUS: A HISTORIAN LOOKS AT THE GOSPELS (as well
as books entitled SAINT PETER and SAINT PAUL, as well as numerous books
on the Roman Empire and the personalities therein.). One slight
qualification. Nothing is without question in history. But certainly he
makes the point that much of what we know about ancient history is based
on lesser evidence (four different documents, numerous letters by several
hands, one history, et al) than is the Gospels. He sees no reason to
disregard them entirely, despite minor discrepencies, any more than he
sees any reason to dispute the main thrust of Roman history, despite minor
discripencies between, say, Livy and Seutonius. He says one of the many
things that convinces him there was a Jesus is the parts in it which
someone would have to be INSANE to include if it were mere
propaganda...for instance, the admission that Jesus' brothers thought Him
crazy, the way the disciples did not claim Jesus' body but instead some
of
the hated Pharisees provided a burial place...things like that. It is a
quite interesting book by a world-renowned historian who is a nontheist
(or at least I cannot detect it in his writings) nor does he think every
word in the Gospel is..well, gospel. But he certainly does think the
historical evidence justifies a belief in an individual named Jesus and
the attendant disciples. Highly recommended, of interest to theists and
nontheists alike, and much to bolster BOTH points of view.
> conservative Bible scholar would argue that Luke wrote the gospel tha
> bears his name for several reasons, some of which I outlined above. A
> of the arguments are objectively true and verifiable. There is no
> assumption required at all. (We're not arguing at this point about
> whether the content is true, but whether the traditional authorship i
> correct.)
EF> All objectively true and verifiable? Wow, that sure would be something
EF> to see! One thing puzzles me. Why all this other who-ha and dancing
EF> around if you have such rock solid evidence as that? Verifiable? I'm
EF> impressed. History is the weakest science.
An example. Many in the German school of theology (very skeptical) dated
John's Gospel around 200 AD, and thought it a late forgery. They basically
were following their own agenda, that the Gospels were late additions to
the growing beliefs of followers, and making assumptions to fit their
theories. This was in the last century.
Then they found fragments of John's Gospel in Egypt dated about 125 AD.
Oops.
There is some evidence that the Gospel of Matthew is pretty old, also. A
recent claim by a specialist in Egyptian writings claim the style of
writing for the Gospel of Matthew contains a telltale, upright Greek
writing that was going out of style in the first century. The press
originally claimed he gave it a date of around 70 AD, and so it was first
reported in the international edition of TIME. However, when he actually
presented the paper, he revised his estimate upwards to around the turn
of
the first century (100 AD) which is still reasonably recent. Far better
than anything we have of any other ancient documents. (I believe the
oldest copy of Virgil we have is fifth century, for instance.) The expert
in papyrus manuscripts is called Carsten Peter Thiede. Marilyn Burge has
some information on the later revising, and I broke the information to the
echo as a whole when it was first reported in the press. Of course, the
closer the information is to the actual time of the events, the better
chance of it being reliable.
EF> I suppose you know that history cannot be used to prove miracles,
EF> right? Hume proved that historical data can only be interpreted if
we
EF> assume that the same natural laws apply consistently throughout time.
A excellent assumption. But as you meantion below...
EF> Not that miracles never happened, necessarily, but that history is
EF> impotent to establish their occurrence. I'm sure you are well
EF> acquainted with the reason(s) why this is, given all your historical
EF> study.
Indeed. Which is why we concentrate on the actions and claims of the
disciples and see if we see any plausible explanation of same, that do not
involve a resurection. And we get they were either suffering a mass
hallucination...an oxymoron and impossibility as much as a Resurrection
is...they were all lying and suffered flogging, imprisonment, and in some
cases death for what they KNEW was a lie (which may not be physically
impossible but certainly is PSYCHOLOGICALLY impossible)...or they told the
truth.
> A liberal scholar would say "We know the stories about Jesus's miracl
> are myths, and myths take time to develop, so the book must have been
> written long after Jesus died, and so the church just pinned a name o
> it." All of which is supposition, assumption, unsupported assertion,
> and which ignores the Pauline evidence which I mentioned in another
> post.
EF> "Supposition, assumption, unsupported assertion," is a pretty apt
EF> description of your argument so far. I've yet to see anything but
EF> assertions and further assertions that your assertions are evidence.
And how indeed, then, did the Christianity cult grow to such proportions
that Nero was persecuting it circa 60 AD (Suetonius), within the lifetime
of those who could contradict its claims?
EF> To what end? You offer assertions for your claims and tell me *I*
EF> need expert testimony - which you have narrowly specified - to
EF> disprove them? Why do I get the feeling that even if I jumped through
EF> your hoops it would not make a whit of difference to you?
I think you do Michael an injustice. And quite frankly, if one of the
theists were so quixotic as to say, "why should I produce evidence when
you won't believe in it?" they would be laughed at from one end of the
echo to the other. (I've seen it happen.) I DO think better of you to
think that is what you are saying. I just don't think you thought the
implications of your statement through.
EF> I appreciate you desire to place yourself ex cathedra over the data,
EF> that we should deliver the info you demand ( For what end? change your
EF> mind? You haven't even said that you can be convinced.) and you pass
EF> judgment upon it.
Perhaps to justify your own position? After all, if you are not here to
debate religion, why are you here? Not mocking, honestly curious.
EF> But considering the fact that I'm not making any claims about Luke -
EF> you are - why do you wish to have me disprove what you are asserting,
EF> rather than you establish these things you wish us to accept? Is that
EF> fair?
I think he made a point, but perhaps you have not read enough of the
history of the echo to realize the point that was made. The identification
of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as authors of the Gospel is related by a
disciple of Polycarp, who was in turn a disciple of John's, who of course
was a disciple of Jesus....a solid continuum of tradition passed mouth to
mouth. Is that unassailable? No. But in the light of competing heresies
like Marcion's and outright skeptics such as Celsus, one would think
there would be serious doubts or counter-claims if there was much doubt
about
the authorship. Nor can we assume the gospels were just then discovered,
since there is no mention of a "miraculous" find of a forgotten gospel.
It doesn't totally preclude it, but the probability lies that it is an
established group of writings.
EF> Well I am willing to make *you* a challenge. SHOW ME. Don't tell me.
I
EF> don't want to hear about all this totally objective evidence, or the
EF> 99//5 of historians who agree with you, or you referring to your own
EF> past assertions as evidence. If any of it is true, then trot it out.
EF> Those that can - do. Those that can't - say they can (but would rather
EF> you proved them wrong instead).
See above. Is it rock-hard evidence for Jesus' RESURRECTION? No, but it
does raise interesting questions in the mind of those who consider the
questions.
BTW, I have sent you numerous posts and have yet to see an answer, I
notice you responding to Mike and John, but not to me. Don't call me
paranoid but I have had numerous Fidonet problems that I THOUGHT were
solved. I would appreciate a simple, "Yes, I saw the post" even if you
don't want to reply in full at this time, which I would certainly
understand.
... Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: animalize
|Date: 01 Mar 96 13:29:00
EID:805e 20616ba0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 67ff2091
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, Michael Hardy said to Norbert Sykes:
KC>Unfortunately, I'm neither a genetic biologist or any other kind of
KC>scientist, but it would be very interesting to find out exactly how
KC>_much_ monogamy has been going 'round these past few million years or
KC>so on this planet. And, it would also be interesting to know how monogamy
KC>has contributed to the gene pool.
KC>See Bourbons, France, and Tudors, England.
Piffle. You can see much closer than that: Stearnes County,
Minnesota.
---
* OLX 2.2 * I haven't laughed so hard since I puked on a fundy.
--- QScan/PCB v1.18b / 01-0067
* Origin: Black Gold BBS-TELNET BGBBS.COM SLIP/PPP 918-272-7779 (1:170/309)
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|From: Kenneth Cavness
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 09:45:39
EID:dc4e 205d4da0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 31372b94
Whilst sleeping soundly, Fredric Rice said to Kenneth Cavness:
> And a great big lubbin' hello to all of you out there.
FR> Questor! Hey, man! Long time no... oh wait. We talked last night.
FR> }:-}
Fred! Hey, man! Long time no... oh wait. I see you every day both on HS
and on IRC. You sure are prolific, man. 8D
> Many of you may re-remember me from IRC, or wayyy back
> several years ago as Questor Thews. Well, amazingly
> enough, I didn't
> 1) Die
> 2) Get a life
> 3) Join the Navy, join the Navy, Join the Navy
> 4) Become a monk
> 5) Become a nun
> 6) Become Ron Stringfellow.
FR> 'Coulda become a Christian priest and raped with impunity.
I believe I just said that I didn't. (#6)
... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Dan Hunting
|To: All
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 01 Mar 96 13:10:00
EID:64a9 20616940
MSGID: 1:114/237 000f1d77
A good friend of mine recently converted to Christianity after many
years of being a well-reasoned non believer. He has become quite
interested in studying the Bible. Does anyone keep a list of
contradictory, bizarre and genrally absurd Biblical quotes I could
used to needle this fellow a little bit? I'm not really interested in
offending him, I'd just like a little more ammo when he starts of try
to convert me! I know I have seen such a list somewhere before; I
remember reading detailed instructions for the proper way to sell your
daughter into slavery and also directions as to how to dispose of the
bodies of your vanquished foes. Something like "cut their heads off
and piss down their necks" as I recall.
---
þ KingQWK 1.05 þ Pyschic Wanted: Qualified person knows where to apply.
* Origin: IOTP * Fido/Relaynet/Intelec/Usenet (602)947-3896 (1:114/237)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: All
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:03:52
EID:0807 20619860
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 137906a0
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
* Forwarded (from: church&state) by Ryan Shaw using timEd/2 1.10+.
* Originally from David Bloomberg (1:2430/2112) to All.
* Original dated: Sun Feb 25, 12:35
From the Chicago Tribune, over the New York Times Wire Service, 2/23/96:
Ten Commandments boosted
The Tennessee Senate has approved, 27-1, a resolution urging homes, businesses,
places of worship and schools to post and observe the Ten Commandments,
despite an opinion of the state attorney general that the resolution is
unconstitutional.
The sponsor, state Sen. Ben Atchley, a Knoxville Republican who is the majority
leader, said the resolution was an effort to reaffirm moral standards. The
measure, passed Wednesday, now goes to the House, where passage is expected.
State Sen. Steve Cohen, a Democrat who was the only senator to vote against
the resolution, said the vote was an alarming indication of the rising power
of the religious Right.
-=-=-=-
Encouraging SCHOOLS to post a religious document? Don't they ever learn
their lessons about the First Amendment?
Even better -- encouraging places of worship to do it. So now we have the
government telling religious institutions how to run their religion. And
people wonder why we need church/state separation...
___ msgedsq 2.0.5
- Origin: The mentally stunted turn morally rabid. (1:2430/2112)
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: All
|Sub: Buchanan on Evolution
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:04:21
EID:d045 20619880
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 137906a1
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
* Forwarded (from: church&state) by Ryan Shaw using timEd/2 1.10+.
* Originally from David Bloomberg (1:2430/2112) to All.
* Original dated: Mon Feb 26, 06:45
Date: Sun Feb 18 1996 17:38:18
From: John Brawley
To: All
Subj: FWIW
EVOLUTION -------------------------------
========================================================================
Copied from BIOGENESIS by John Brawley (86:8012/9.1)
========================================================================
For what it's worth:
Today, Sunday, on the 'This Week with David Brinkley' program on ABC,
presidential hopeful Pat Buchanan got asked a creationism question by
correspondent George Wills. The question was 'should creationism be
taught in the schools?'
The short ( and a bit heated/confused ) back-and-forth that followed got
Buchanan saying that he believed the Bible, that the New Testament was
absolutely true and the Old Testament "inspired," that he didn't for a
minute think that he "came from a monkey," and that he didn't want
"godless evolution" taught in the schools.
(!!)
Scratch one presidential candidate from MY list.
I was actually surprised that Buchanan let himself be pinned like that.
He was _very_ clear. Also, it would seem, he's _very_ dangerous to
evolutionary science.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org [or] jbrawley@cheswicks.toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: jbrawley@slacc.com FidoNet: 1:100/435.1
___ msgedsq 2.0.5
- Origin: The mentally stunted turn morally rabid. (1:2430/2112)
---
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 01 Mar 96 18:18:17
EID:12a6 20619240
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6311e120
REPLY: 1:271/460 31336d26
KM>>> There are no other gods.
DR>> What a stupid thing to say. Do you have any evidence that
DR>> the gods do not exist?
KM> The Bible.
yAre you as simple minded as you present yourself here?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 01 Mar 96 18:31:44
EID:c0b2 206193e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 631201af
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org c8559ca7
MG>>it does without having bad side effects. Kids fall off of
MG>>high places every day and end up in emergency rooms. Why
MG>>didn't your god think of
MG>>that?
KS> He was too busy developing other, more heinous methods.
Hardly thinks god is perfect. He refuses to accept any evidence to the
contrary, so I guess he also believes used car salesmen.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Dont have the time.
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:11:56
EID:191b 20619960
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63125ea7
REPLY: 1:152/67.0 13513a4f
RS> Can you shake your mojo my way this time?
I think that his mojo, like his slaussen, has been cut off.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:13:14
EID:0bb0 206199a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 631263ab
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3134ff83
AM> That argument is just a silly smokescreen to excuse yourself
AM> possibility of being accountable to a righteous God.
A "righteous" god would have prevented all your false christian scum brethren
from torturing, killing, waging war and being general assholes in his name.
I guess he just wasn't up to the task.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:22:31
EID:e8f2 20619ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6312862f
GM> A POCKETFUL OF DYNAMITE
GM>
"O pardon me thou bleeding piece of Earth,
That I am meek and gentle with these butchers.
Thou are the ruins of the noblest man that ever lived in the tide of times.
Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood.
O'er thy wounds now do I prophecy,
Which like dumb mouths do ope their ruby lips to beg the voice and utterance
of my tongue,
A curse shall light among the limbs of men.
Domestic fury and civil strife shall cumber all the parts of Italy.
Blood and destruction shall be so in use and dreadful objects so familiar,
Tht mothers shall but smile when they behold their infants quartered with
the hands of war.
And all pity choked with the custom of fell deeds and Ceasar's spirit raging
for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Will in these confines with a monarch's voice cry 'HAVOC',
And let slip the dogs of war.
That this foul deed shall smell above the Earth,
With carrion men groaning for burial
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:29:16
EID:e8f2 20619ba0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 631289e1
GM> A WISE WAY TO PRAY
"A coward dies many times before his death.
The valiant taste of death but once.
Of all the things I yet have heard it seems to me most strange
That men should fear.
Seeing death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come."
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: You can't kill a man born to hang. (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
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PATH: 124/9005 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:31:03
EID:e8f2 20619be0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63128f1f
GM> HOW PRAYER WORKS
GM>
"The time has come the Walrus said,
To speak of many things.
Of shoes and ships and sealing wax,
and cabbages and kings.
And why the sea is boiling hot,
and whether pigs have wings.
But wait a while the oysters cried before we have our chat.
For most of us are out of breth and all of us are fat.
'No hurry", said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that."
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Prewett's Christanic fantasies
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:44:26
EID:89cb 20619d80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6312aac0
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 3136638e
JH>> That I don't have. If he ever posted it I missed it (not
JH>> surprising, I delete large blocks of his messages unread).
RJ> There's only 2 of them listed in Fairbanks for '95, both
RJ> named Ann. S'pose one or both are his "sister(s)"?
They must not run lines out to the trailer park.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:47:24
EID:349c 20619de0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 6312b2d7
REPLY: 3:711/933 31361950
AG> Not even though human and dinosoar footprints are found together.
Please reference ONE instance of this happening. I will research it and
reply on why it was a fake.
Do it now and prepare to look foolish.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 21 Feb 96 09:35:00
EID:1215 20554c60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 12c60b51
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Michael. It's been a while.
RM> The part of the Bible you are discussing here was aimed at a wandering
RM> desert tribe that did not distinguish between bats and birds, and did
RM> not posess the vocabulary to make that distinction. Under the
RM> circumstances, the fact that the bible doesn't make such a distinction
RM> is pretty easy to understand, regardless of whether the author was a
RM> member of that tribe or the almighty Creator Himself.
MH> Exactly. Which is also why Genesis doesn't include a detailed
MH> description of evolutionary processes.
Sure. That would have been a major waste of time - information that
could not have been understood by the intended audience, and that did
not need to be conveyed to fulfill the purpose at hand. It's supposed to
be a spiritual, moral guide (and family history), not an encyclopedia.
RM> There are lots of examples of inaccuracies and contradictions in the
RM> Bible, but this one (along with my favourite - the pi=3.00 thing)
RM> really isn't one of them. Now, rabbits and cud, or Jesus ancestry,
or
RM> which was created first, men or plants, or ... like I said, there are
RM> lots of them.
MH> Interesting note, though -- the word translated "create" in Genesis
MH> one means to make out of nothing. The word translated "create" in
MH> Genesis 2 is a different Hebrew word which means to form out of
MH> existing material.
I don't see how that makes a difference, Michael (if anything, it
compounds the inconsistencies). It's the order that I was referring to
as
inconsistent.
The birds make an even clearer case - they were made out of nothing on day
5 in Gen. 1, with man coming on day 6 (note: it says that He made birds
on
day 5, not stuff out of which He would later form birds). Yet in Gen. 2,
we have God forming them from something else in the presence of man.
So, the fact that the two chapters are inconsistent in the manner in
which birds were first created doesn't do anything to mitigate the fact
that they are also inconsistent on whether they were created before or
after man.
Take care.
... The price of purity is purists. - Calvin Trillin
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07ái (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 22 Feb 96 12:55:00
EID:1795 205666e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 12dbd552
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, David.
RM> I'm not sure I follow your ergo, there. Not that I think the Bible
is
RM> inerrant (far from it), but this is an extremely weak argument.
RM> Dr. Seuss certainly is aware of ideas and distinctions that are much
RM> more complex than those found in his books. But those books are aimed
RM> at a certain audience, and those complex ideas and distinctions would
RM> not be relevant to that audience.
DW> Dr. Suess' books are aimed at children. I thought the Bible was aimed
DW> at *everybody*, not just a barbaric group of savages 2-4000 years ago.
You guys are amazing. You ridicule the fundies who believe that the
bible was written in English, yet, when it suits your purposes, you
pretend that it actually WAS written in English.
Given the fact that the language that the Bible was written in made no
distinction between bats and birds (a fact noted in my previous post, but
carefully Hectorized out of the part you quoted back), only a moron would
expect to see that distinction in the English translation of the text.
Apparently, you qualify.
(BTW, not that it is relevant to this discussion, but in answer to your
question, I personally believe that while that book contains insights of
value to modern men, it was aimed at the group to which it was delivered.
Same goes for the scriptures of other religions).
Take care.
... They jest at scars that never felt a wound. (Shakespeare)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07áj (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Mike Roberts
|Sub: A Tale Of 2 Cities...
|Date: 25 Feb 96 14:00:00
EID:057f 20597000
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 1308f4e1
-=> Quoting Mike Roberts to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, Mike.
RM>KD> Rabbits DO chew their cud, just not exactly in the same way as
RM>cows.
RM>KD> They eat their first morning's droppings. [I know... yuck,
RM>Children, do not try this yourselves!
RM>This is disgusting. And it raises a number of questions: Does shit
RM>count
RM>as cud? Exactly what was the hebrew word translated as cud in that
RM>passage, anyway? Is this insanity limited to the rodent clan? Who on
RM>earth spends their time studying these things? And how does one go
RM>about
RM>getting a job like that?
MR> Hey, My Maltese dog does that. Not really sure why I just told
MR> you that. :>
That asnwers one of those questions - it's not limited to the rodent clan.
Then again, perhaps a case can be made that a Maltese dog actually IS a
rodent .
Take care.
... No one loves the man whom he fears. - Aristotle
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07ák (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Subject Headers
|Date: 25 Feb 96 14:02:00
EID:a821 20597040
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 1308f4f1
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning MM.
RM> Don't bother trying to fit in. The place is a disaster area,
MM> Hmmmm then perhaps I should buy my modem a hard hat?
Or a fallout shelter.
RM> everything is all jumbled up, and there's no place to fit in anyway.
MM> OK, so that's why I seem to see so many elbows being sharpened!
MM> Everyone is vying for position and only the hardy survive? This echo
MM> should exhibit the behavioral patterns of evolution then?
Hmmm... An interesting point. I've never considered this before. The
environment is set by the rules (or lack thereof) established by Styx (the
moderaptor). From watching the place for about a year and a half now,
there are LOTS of people who don't survive here. So, what traits
favour survival in this environment?
It would appear that atheists find this environment more friendly than
theists (or even agnostics), although not all atheists survive either.
A thick skin is probably the most important trait here. Some idiot will
call me names very soon (it happens regularly, and it will happen to you
too, if it hasn't already). IMHO, the best way (survival wise) to handle
that is to save your energy and ignore it. The sensitive ones are the
ones who don't last long.
Intelligence is not necessarily required (examples both bright and dim
exist on both sides of the debating line here).
Others might have different opinions as to what traits are beneficial in
this environment. Maybe we should make a list?
RM> Just be you and chat. (BTW, being a masochist is probably an
RM> advantagearound here).
MM> Yeah, my real worry is that I may not be Sadistic enough to enjoy the
MM> battle.
Ouch! So I'm a sadist, now?
(See, I told you that someone was going to call me names soon ).
RM> Myself, I pay more attention to the name in the "From" column than
RM> anything else when browsing here. And here's a tip - the really
RM> thoughtful people generally don't post 6,000 messages a day. No one
RM> (witha few notable exceptions) has enough time to write that many
RM> messages andmake them interesting.
MM> Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for the suggestion.
It takes some time to learn who posts messages that you find interesting.
But, when you run across an interesting note, an attitude that you like,
remember who sent it.
And there may be exceptions to the rule about prolific posters being
uninteresting. I can name one or two that I think must be unemployed (or
never sleep) because they post dozens of well thought out messages every
day. But I won't name names, because that's a matter of opinion
anyway, and half the fun is finding new friends yourself.
Another suggestion: If a certain subject interests you, use your keyword
search to check for related notes. For instance, recently, I've added
"Asmod" to my keyword search, because I don't want to miss any of the
entertainment . But forget the subject lines. They mean nothing.
RM> ... The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. (Thoreau)
MM> Not around here! Seems the masses I live near live noisy lives of
MM> obnoxiousness.
You've been lurking for a while, haven't you . We're not all like
that. But it is easier to be obnoxious than thoughtful.
Take care.
... Rare as is true love, true friendship is rarer. - La Fontaine
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07ák (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Dont have the time.
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:17:00
EID:c16b 205c4220
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 135d9441
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Asmodeus <=-
Good morning, Shelby.
SS> 26 Feb 96 01:27, quoting Asmodeus to ALL:
A> address larryv@voyager.com
A> and I'll try to get back to you.
SS> Don't be surprised if you find the entire federal register in your
SS> inbounds, moron. Stick that in you spell book.
You're assuming that's actually HIS email address, and not, oh, say,
maybe, J.J.'s.
Naw. He's not that smart.
Take care.
... But it does move! (Galileo Galilei)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Buchanan
|Date: 28 Feb 96 08:32:00
EID:5992 205c4400
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 135d9451
-=> Quoting J.J. Hitt to Larry Meyering <=-
SA> We've got Buchanan to worry about.
JH> You've got Buchanan to worry about. I'm giggling my ass
JH> off.
After he won in New Hampshire, in a phone interview, Pat said that he had
people over in China right now, studying the Great Wall, because it was
a
pretty good model of what he wanted to put up along the Canadian Border.
It probaby didn't get much press down there, but up here, it caused a
bit of a fuss.
A CBC comedy show commented on it, very appropriately last night. They
said that might not be such a bad idea after all, because Pat Buchanan
would be on the other side of it.
Take care.
... As a rule of thumb, too clever is dumb. - Ogden Nash
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Boni Hitch
|To: Pam Gray
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 28 Feb 96 17:10:58
EID:ff9d 205c8940
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e115f10
PG>Well we could but we wouldn't have as much fun...
PG>BH> I'd LOVE to be able to bash stuff around HolySmoke but the messages
PG>BH> don't go and I got tired of typing for nothing. Jeez, we could go
the
PG>BH> "Religions" at RofD--but we don't really disagree...:-)
PG>Oh well I guess we just have to talk about something else elsewhere -
we bo
PG>could check out the other debating base! :)
Avoid ToxicNet unless you're into no-moderator, "brutal"...
PG>Apologies for being off topic...
Who are ya apologizing to? These messages ain't goin' nowhere!...:-)
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ ...Insanity is hereditary. You get it from your kids...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Rice
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:37
EID:44ea 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840101
-=> Quoting David Rice to Hector Plasmic <=-
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Michael Hardy <=-
>MH> Don't ask me for evidence of this; it is an article of
>MH> faith. You either believe it or you don't.
DR> Therefore, all criticism, discussion, and discourse are
Excuse me, but why does the fact the "believing" something by faith,
have to preclude "discussion". Even the bible says we must be able to
give an account as to WHY we believe. It is not JUST believe or
BLIND FAITH that we must have, but a faith based on reason and
common sense.
DR> utterly, irrevocably meaningless. One is left wondering,
DR> why is Michael here in HOLYSMOKE then? If he believes his
DR> convictions about his gods are merely a matter of faith,
DR> then there's nothing left for him to say on the matter.
DR> Faith knows nothing of reason.
Of course Faith knows reason. How can you have REAL faith in something
without having a legitimate reason to believe what you do ?
I have DEFINITE reasons for why I believe in the bible and the teachings
of Jesus Christ.
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:38
EID:fc91 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840102
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
BK> (On 02-22-96 Michael Hardy replied to Karen Davis)
M H>-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to Karen Davis <=-
MH> KD>> Then why are there still Jews?
Are you kidding. JESUS IS A JEW !
And have you not heard of the group "Jews for Jesus"?
Being a Christian does not mean you can't be a Jew.
And it is also said that in the end times when Jesus returns again,
then the Jewish nation will recognize him and accept him as the
Messiah.
MH> KD> But if the evidence for Christ was sooo convincing, they should
MH> KD> have all converted.
MH> They weren't, because many had become legalistic and dogmatic, so
MH>that they didn't recognize God when he stood before them -- because
MH>he didn't fit their preconceived notions. That was exactly what
MH>Jesus criticized them for -- rejecting the truth in favor of their
MH>own pet ideas.
BK> LOL! And you say you have free will?
We ALL have free will. We can even choose to not believe in God.
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Naim
|Sub: artificial reproduction
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:39
EID:33cb 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840103
-=> Quoting Andrew Naim to All <=-
AN> Hello! I am new to this message base, in my religion class we came
AN> about a serious yet interesting topic! it was about Dna and how you
can
AN> make like an infinite amount of someone! evryone on earth could have
AN> thier own Pam Anderson, or whatever, and i am curious about other
AN> peoples beliefs in this topic ,just the moral parts anyways, do you
AN> think God wants this to happen, well i am not god but i can say that
AN> with the bad effcts it can have on todays society like overpoppulation
AN> , people that can never die and stuff like that all due to the fact
AN> that science is so ahead of the moral issues of these aspects. If
AN> science is soon going to be able to do brain transplants you could have
AN> like albert einsteins brain in Cindy crawford, all people would have
AN> to do to live forever is make 10 of themselves when they are a little
AN> older then let the eggs of himelf grow to about 20 or 25 then
AN> transplant the brain into the body and budaboom buddabing , once that
AN> body is old he can just go to another body and another and another...!
AN> i was just curious of other peoples concerns and comments on this
AN> matter! i would like to hear from ya!
AN> Andrew Naim
It wouldn't change a heckuva lot. There will still be greedy people and
loving people and selfish people and caring people. TEchnology has changed
constantly and not affected the teachings of Jesus Christ or the relativity
of the bible to how people treat one another. We use to walk then ride
horses then cars and someday we may "teleport". We used to kill people with
clubs, bows and arrows, flintlocks, gattling guns, now uzis or scud missles
tomorrow "phasers". technology doesn't change who we are as people. There
are still good guys and bad guys and good deeds and bad deeds.
As long as there are people with free will the bible will be relevant.
The question isnt how long we live, it's HOW we live. The teachings of
Jesus boil down to this as He Himself said.
1) Love goodness , and rightness and truth and justice.
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.
The technology in the background is just extraneous matter.
... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:40
EID:fb19 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840104
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> Look God has given you a chance to repent of your sins. I can
BJ> not help it if you don't want to follow God's message, laid down in
BJ> the Bible (KJV). So if you don't want to repent and be baptized you
BJ> and your sin are headed for Hell.
DM> Let us refresh your obviously tenuous memory. The
DM> question was "If god 'hates the sin but loves the sinner,
DM> how come he doesn't send the sin to hell and save the sinner
DM> whom he (supposedly) loves?" and NOT "What is the state of
How about letting a "newbie" take a shot at this one.
God does NOT send "anyone" to hell. Hell is a natural outcome of
making the wrong choices in life. God is much like a mother who tells
her child. Do not play on the 401 highway. The child ignores his mothers
commandment and goes and plays on the highway. A big truck runs the child
over. The mother did not upon realizing her son had disobeyed her call a
truck driver and tell him to run over her child as punishment. It was a
natural result that his mother had warned him about and he ignored.
God doesn't want ANYONE to go to hell, but his children refuse to listen
to him. He went so far as to send Jesus Christ out on the highway to
call us back home.
God is giving us advice. If we ignore his advice then we choose to march
into hell. Let me pain a picture of just ONE of the ways I look at the
concept of hell.
If a person gets his pleasure from taking cocaine, what happens when that
source of pleasure is removed. He gets withdrawal pains HELL on earth.
Now if indeed a person is not only a physical being, but a spiritual being
as well. And if that person only finds satisfaction in the pleasures of
physical life, food, sex, money, toys, when this physical life is over,
IF
the spiritual man remains, and he has not learned how to be happy in a
spiritual way with the truth and love and peace and joy and other spiritual
qualities, when his drugs or pleasures of the physical life are gone he
will
be in the eternal agony of not being able to be satisfied.
DM> "People may SAY that god hates the sin but loves the
DM> sinner, but god REALLY hates the sinner and enjoys
DM> hearing him squeal."
NO ONE has to continue on the path to hell. ANYONE can choose to get
off the highway before they get hit by that truck called Hell.
DM> yourself to the question "If god 'hates the sin but loves
DM> the sinner, how come he doesn't send the sin to hell and
DM> save the sinner whom he (supposedly) loves?" and you cannot
DM> go far wrong. To do anything else is to go very wrong indeed.
DM> "God can't put sins in hell."
Also you are right. Sin is something we do, It is a choice we make, not
an
object you can place in hell. It is up to US to make the right choice. Only
WE can stop the sinning.
Why can't god stop us from sinning. Make us choose the right way. Because
THEN we would not be people, we would be angels. We are HIGHER than the
angels. We can CHOOSE. And THAT my friend is the PURPOSE of Life. And
remember no one HAS to go to hell. It is our CHOICE. God has provided the
way out. Reach out to Jesus, He's reaching out to you.
BJ> Mark 16:15-18
BJ> And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
BJ> gospel to every creature. {16} He that believeth and is baptized
BJ> shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. {17} And
BJ> these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they
BJ> cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; {18} They shall
BJ> take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not
BJ> hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
BJ>
BJ> This is kind of what I am trying to do, help people with the Gospel.
BJ> If there is something you don't like in this great scripture, give
BJ> me a call and we can chat about it.
DM> He is asking you do do the drinking, dolt, not type the
DM> thing in full or explain what it means. He KNOWS what it
DM> means.
DM> Apparently, you do not.
Who is to say which one knows what it really means. I guess we can all
choose what we want it to mean. If that is his choice, he must live
(or die) with the consequences.
... I call things as I see them; If I didn't see them, I make them up!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Beliefs.
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:41
EID:91ae 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840105
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Masochistic Maiden <=-
GR> Why bother with faith in the first place? It is a waste of time.
GR> What is, is, and what isn't, isn't. No amount of faith has ever
GR> changed that.
Says who ? Ever hear of the power of positive thinking? How many things
have been done simply because someone BELIEVED it could be done.
Take the building of the first atomic bomb. In the book The Manhattan
Project, it tells of three problems that had to be solved before they
could build the bomb. At the time, these problems were impossible to
solve according to the laws of physics. And yet they had faith that they
could solve these problems. They poured BIG MONEY into the project to
show their faith and you guessed it they solved all three problems.
FAITH made them keep trying. Had they lacked that faith, we might all
be speaking Japanese right now :-)
MM> I still would like someone to answer the question, what is the PURPOSE
MM> in debunking another's faith.
GR> Why growth of course! As a child outgrows the need for Santa so too
GR> must our race out grow the need for gods. The sooner we realize that
GR> there isn't some nicer place to go after we die, the sooner we will
GR> realize that what we do here is all that matters. When we realize that
GR> we will concentrate on the here and now instead of wasting time on that
Well if you can destroy another persons faith, you can pretend you are
better than him. It is like a rapist. A power struggle. The man shows
his superioity over the woman by raping her. But I would hardly say that
proves he was "better" than her. WOuld you?
SS> What do you believe in?
MM> Ummmmm maybe curiosity? Certainly I am a curious person. I hold honor,
MM> integrity, knowledge, and experience beneficial in life. I find value
MM> in scientific and mythic works. I'm pretty much in favor of freedom
of
MM> speech, yet appreciate respectful conversation above namecalling.
I
MM> return the question> What do you believe in?
GR> Not a damn thing. I put away my belief toys a long time ago.
GR> george
Figures.
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: childish ignorance
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:42
EID:e3c8 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840106
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Michael Hardy <=-
FL> This is an example of your bad understanding of the bible. Look dude,
FL> Adam and Eve DID NOT know enough about good and evil before they ate
FL> the fruit, did they? Yet your god held them responsible! Your logic
THANK YOU -- THANK YOU -- THANK YOU
A new perspective for me to think about. SO it was not a sin to eat from
the tree it was just a choice. Actually that backs up one the ideas I have
played around with that it is MAN who made up this idea of "right and wrong"
and sin. Because as you say he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good
and evil. That could be a concept that tries to explain where the idea
of good and bad came from in the first place. And of course the tree story
is a metaphor of the explanation of how that came about. I mean animals
don't
have to worry about right and wrong , so where did humans get this idea
from?
mh> ... is fine, in contrast to your understanding of the story.
mh> A&E had a direct order to not eat the fruit.
FR> Ignore the truth all you wish, Mike, and deny logic as
is
FR> your wont to remain a cultist. But that won't remove the undeniable
FR> fact that the classical Christanic mythologies you're trying to pretend
FR> are real have once again been debunked by reason.
I certainly wouldn't say they have been "debunked", I would just say it
gives me personally, more insight into the meaning of the story.
FR> ~*~ "And you have no proof that the Mutant Cosmic Star Goat (Braise
FR> His Mane!!) didn't eat Yahweh, have Jesus for dessert, get really
FR> bad gas, and now you worship a smelly methane cloud." -- Quentin
If that is what you choose to believe, But do you REALLY believe that.
Do you HONESTLY believe that. Do you have any logic or common sense
REASON to believe that ?
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:43
EID:12a5 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840107
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Michael Hardy <=-
BK> (On 02-22-96 Michael Hardy replied to Elliott Finesse)
MH> No, I do insist that God's decisions are fair and just. I'm just not
MH> 100 percent sure that everything attributed to God's command in the
MH> Bible is really God's command. I'm also not saying it isn't. I don't
MH> know and I reserve judgment.
BK> Well, isn't that a bit faithless of you...Perhaps you should label
BK> yourself "agnostic"...
Oh come on. Do you want people to just blindly believe what is written,
without considering where those words came from and what they really mean.
People can interpret the bible in various ways. WHo is to say which
interpretation is the correct one ? Only God. And even the interpretation
the writer intended is only as accurate as his ability to understand or
comprehend what he is being told.
But GOD can tell each of us personally by his spirit what he meant. And
we have to answer ONLY to God and certainly not anyone in this echo.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:44
EID:8fa9 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840108
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
KDM> MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to ELLIOTT FINESSE:
MH> EF> Mike, sorry, but you don't have an explanation period.
MH>
MH> Yes, I do. It just isn't unambiguous and simplistic. It is that God
MH> punishes those guilty of evil. If God did indeed order the killing
MH>of truly innocent children along with the guilty adults, then I
MH>would suppose that the ending of their physical life was not the
MH>judgment, but what happens after. If so, then I believe the innocent
MH>children who, unfortunately, lost their physical lives, gain eternal
MH>life in heaven and thus aren't punished at all.
KDM> Then what's the problem with abortion?
The problem with abortion is that as soon as the egg and sperm unite, you
have a new unique individual human being. All it needs is food and shelter
until it can fend for itself. Put a one week old child out in our chilly
Candian winter and it is the same as pulling an immature unborn baby from
the womb of its mother.
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:45
EID:d0b5 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840109
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Kenneth Mcabee <=-
KM>No Fredrick, in the post that you love to quote me on, I never stated
that
KM>would murder my own son. I said that if God asked me to kill my son,
I wou
KM>consider it a sacrifice, but I never stated that I would make that
KS> sacrifice,
KM>did I? Huh? Excuse me? I can't hear you Fred, or perhaps to prove me
wrong
KM>you'de like to post the message where I said I WOULD murder or sacrifice
m
KM>son?
KS> Ah. You're not sure you would obey God. I see.
My reply to that would be that the god I know said "Thou shalt not kill"
and
would certainly not ask me to kill ANYONE let alone my own son.
... He's got Blue Wave fever and it's spreading through the message bases!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:46
EID:019c 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84010a
EH> I do have one loan out. I have a loan out for a car, but no
EH> credit cards, no other loans, straight cash. I agree that we
EH> should not take out loans, but it couldn't be helped. My wife
EH> had wrecked the car we had paid cash for, shortly after we
EH> bought it. We had a little saved up for our next car, but not
EH> enough to purchase another one. So, we were forced to go get a
EH> loan, or walk.
JH> I see...
JH> You love comfort and convenience more than you love God.
NS> Maybe he didn't want to have to wait for God to pick him up. I
NS> could understand that. I'd _never_ loan my car to God. He is
Whats with the personal attacks ? Is somebody hard up for debating
properly? Use the old "personal attack" tactic?
What an individual does, has nothing to do with whether or not it
is the right thing to do. Also we can do things we don't like to
do without it being any kind of comment on our love for god.
Some pretty cheap shots are being thrown around here I would say.
... Sorry, the dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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PATH: 2424/1004 1001 12/98 12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:47
EID:ab86 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84010b
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Eric Hendrix <=-
-=> Quoting Eric Hendrix to Ross Catto <=-
RC> wants.By taking any kind of loan out, a Christian is disobeying a
RC> directcommand from god not to.
AM> Thats poor biblical exegesis. The idea was not to borrow money with
AM> no collaterol. If I buy a car on credit, I should put enough down, so
AM> if in dire need, I can sell and get out of debt. Its even more true
AM> borrowing for a house. A house has intrinsic value, while renting
AM> does not. Either way, a payment is due. Its your interpretation of
AM> scripture that is incorrect.
Most interpretation of scripture when being used as a weapon to accuse
or demean a person is incorrect. That is the same crap that Jesus had
to put up with the sadduccees and the pharisees. They continually
interpretted scripture in a way not intended by god. Jesus accused them
of adherring to the LETTER of the law while ignoring the SPIRIT of the
law.
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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PATH: 2424/1004 1001 12/98 12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:48
EID:d1bd 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84010c
-=> Quoting David Rice to Eric Hendrix <=-
-=> Quoting Eric Hendrix to All <=-
EH> I know I'm going to get slammed right and left for this
EH> one, so let me say this right off. I feel there is no
EH> need for name-calling, blasphemous (to Christianity)
EH> replies.
DR> Does that mean you don't give a shit about blasphemy towards
DR> other gods except the various Christian gods?
No it means some people here are stooping to some pretty cheap
debating tactics.
... Security, confine Ensign Rice to the brig.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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PATH: 2424/1004 1001 12/98 12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:49
EID:198c 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84010d
RM> I don't think you answered the question Dan.
DC> You have never gotten around to my question.
rm> ????
FR> Here's one YOU can't ask YOUR masters and get an honest
FR> answer:
FR> Where did your deity constructs come from?
I am not sure that I am understanding this question, but let me give
it a shot.
If you mean where did God come from , then my answer can be found in the
law of the conservation of energy.
Energy can neither be created or destroyed, therefore it has always existed.
Let me call it "god" :-)
If you mean where did the laws of god come from. Could be divine revelation.
Could be the laws of god ARE god.
The bible says God is a SPIRIT.
John says in the beginning was THE WORD and the word was WITH god and the
word
WAS god and the word BECAME flesh and dwelt among men. An interesting choice
of words to refer to god isnt it?
... Back up my hard disk? I can't find the reverse switch!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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PATH: 2424/1004 1001 12/98 12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:50
EID:1bea 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84010e
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to All <=-
KW> This came up in the conversation last night on #holysmoke. Several
KW> people asked that the form be posted openly here. Go ahead and score
KW> your own organized religion (if any). If done honestly, some people
KW> here will be in for a shock.
KW> *********************************************
KW> CULT DANGER EVALUATION FRAME
KW> Rate each from 1 to 10, with 1 being Very Low and 10 being Very High.
KW> [Use zero if non-existent. -- DMR] Be honest!
KW> 1- INTERNAL CONTROL: amount of internal political
KW> power exercised by leader(s)
KW> over members. 1.__0__________
My religion says we are all free to make our own choices.
KW> 2-WISDOM CLAIMED: by leader(s); amount of infalli-
KW> bility declared about decisions. 2._0_________
My religion has no leaders. We are all equal.
KW> 3-WISDOM CREDITED: to leader(s) by members; amount
KW> of trust in decisions made by
KW> leaders. 3.___0_________
see above
KW> 4-DOGMA: rigidity of reality concepts taught;
KW> amount of doctrinal inflexibility. 4.___0__________
My religion says each individual is free to believe what they choose.
KW> 5-RECRUITING: emphasis put on attracting new
KW> members; amount of proselytizing. 5.______10_______
My religion stresses sharing the good news with EVERYONE !
KW> 6-FRONT GROUPS: number of subsidiary groups using
KW> different names from that of main
KW> group. 6._____0________
My religion has no subsidiary groups.
KW> 7-WEALTH: amount of money and/or property desired
KW> or obtained; emphasis on members' donations. 7.____0________
My religion needs no money.
KW> 8-POLITICAL POWER: amount of external political
KW> influence desired or obtained. 8._______0_____
My religion is not of this world.
KW> 9-SEXUAL MANIPULATION: of members by leader(s);
KW> amount of control over sex
KW> lives of members. 9._________0___
My religion does not control the sex lives of members.
KW> 10-CENSORSHIP: amount of control over members'
KW> access to outside opinions on group,
KW> its doctrines or leader(s). 10.__0__________
My religion excercises no control over members.
KW> 11-DROPOUT CONTROL: intensity of efforts directed
KW> at preventing or returning
KW> dropouts. 11.________0____
My religion says all are free to come and go as they please.
KW> 12-ENDORSEMENT OF VIOLENCE: when used by or for
KW> the group or its
KW> leader(s). 12._______0_____
My religion does not endorse any type of violence
KW> 13-PARANOIA: amount of fear concerning real or
KW> imagined enemies; perceived power
KW> of opponents. 13.___0_________
My religion is based on perfect love which casts out all fear.
Opponents have no power.
KW> 14-GRIMNESS: amount of disapproval concerning jokes
KW> about the group, its doctrine, or
KW> leader(s). 14.____0________
My religion is not concerned about what people say about it.
... I know a good tagline when I steal one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Roland
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:51
EID:3a87 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84010f
-=> Quoting Roland to Anthony Grigor-scott <=-
Ro> Dinosaur teeth marks have been found on smaller fossils indicating
Ro> that dinosaurs preyed on them. Had humans existed at that point in
Ro> time, it is logical to conclude that humans also would have been prey;
Ro> and would be found with teeth and claw marks. Since no human remains
Ro> have ever been found with these marks it is also logical to conclude
Ro> that dinosaurs and humans never co-existed on this planet.
Not if the humans were in a garden and the dinosaurs were not :-).
Maybe they just never had the pleasure of meeting.
... Not tonight, dear. I have a modem.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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PATH: 2424/1004 1001 12/98 12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:52
EID:2705 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840110
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Similarly, the odds that a big bang governed by nothing but luck
MH> will produce some arrangement of matter is pretty good. The
MH> odds that it will produce an arrangement of matter capable
MH> of sustaining *any* kind of life are effectively zero.
MG> I'll pull a Hector on you. Step off of a building and see wht
MG> happens. do you fall to your death? Sure you do. So the designer
was
MG> at fault, making gravity a thing that can deal death. Why can't he
MG> have designed gravity to do the good that it does without having bad
MG> side effects. Kids fall off of high places every day and end up in
MG> emergency rooms. Why didn't your god think of that?
SO WHAT ?
Everytime somebody dies , you wanna call God a bad guy for letting it happen.
If nobody ever died, it would get terribly crowded on this little planet
wouldn't it ? Death is a part of life. Get use to it. Deal with it.
It isn't how long we are here, it is WHAT we do while we ARE here, and that
is
OUR choice, not gods. God gives us some good advice, but we are free to
totally disregard it if we choose... at our own peril of course :-)
... Documentation - The worst part of programming.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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PATH: 2424/1004 1001 12/98 12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:53
EID:5f14 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840111
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Dan Ceppa <=-
AM> Can you tell me a Designer didn't create this universe? If the
AM> answer is "I can't prove a negative" then why saddle me with the same
AM> dilemma?
DC> Now, either provide the evidence or admit that you don't have any.
AM> Okay, you've thrown down the gauntlet. I am up to the
AM> challenge! Let me define my contention. That from what can be
AM> extrapolated from scientific facts, there is a probability of us
AM> being here by design thats at least as, or more compelling than us
AM> being here by natural impersonal causes.
AM> Evidence for fine tuning of universe.
AM> 1. Strong nuclear force constant
AM> If larger; no hydrogen; nuclei essential for life would be
AM> unstable If smaller; no elements other than hydrogen
AM> 25. Ratio of mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter
AM> if smaller; galaxies would not have formed
AM> if larger; universe would have collasped before solar-type star
AM> could form
AM>
AM> Paul Davies " The laws of physics seem themselves to be a
AM> product of exceedingly ingenious design"
AM> George Greenstein (scientist,author) expressed these thoughts,"
AM> As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistantly arises
AM> that some supernatural agency-or rather, Agency-must be involved.
AM> Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have
AM> stumbled upon scientific proof of the existance of a supreme
AM> being? Was it God who so providentially crafted the cosmos for
AM> our benefit?" ( From The Symbiotic Universe)
you know it seems the way you have phrased most of your points, that
it is just how things worked out natural as opposed to created that
way.
I mean if you want I am sure you can call it the handiwork of god, but
it seems he may have used natural processes to create his handiwork.
You see the "laws of science" account for the conditions you set forth
to have developed.
The real question is where did these laws come from ?
Where did ANYTHING come from, and how come we have intelligence logic
and sentience to know about and define these laws ?
And since everything is merely an extension of mans perception and definition
how do we know if it even exists beyond mans definition of it?
Someone told me you could take the brain of an individual and stimulate
it is such a way to have the person experience anything you wanted.
Hallucinations of ghosts or ufo's, hunger, thirst, walking on a sunny
beach and he would believe he was doing that.
How can anyone be sure they are not just a brain being stimulated . ANd
nothin
else realy exists outside of our own minds ?
Silly questions maybe, but of such context as to be as difficult to disprove
as a "god".
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:54
EID:d447 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840112
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Kevin D. Mckenzie <=-
MB> Carl Sagan has said repeatedly, both in print and in public
MB> forums, that there are a hundred-million stars in each of a
MB> hundred-million galaxies. Given that, it seems to me that it would
MB> take much math to figure out that Carl Sagan not only thinks that
MB> the odds of life existing SOMEWHERE are a sure thing, but that the
MB> odds of life existing SOMEWHERE ELSE are also a sure thing. (How
MB> many planets are there, if there are a hundred-million-times-a-
MB> hundred-million suns?)
Yeah well you know the old saying
"Never bet on a 'sure thing' " :-) You'll probably lose.
I am more apt to believe that all these things have come into existence
through mans faith that they exist.
... What do you mean? You actually read this tagline?!?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:56
EID:81a6 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840114
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Kevin D. Mckenzie <=-
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
KDM> ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM>-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> AM> None of the physical type, but a philisophical argument.
AM>
AM> KDM> Ye gods, philosophy.
AM>
AM> Philosophy, is more rational basis for belief then science,
AM> because science can't get off the runway without philisophical
AM> presuppositions.
KDM> Perhaps, but at least science can be applied to reality. Pure
KDM> philosophy can not.
AM> Yes it can.
AM> Every time I sit in a chair, I make a philisophical value
AM> judgement, that the chair will support my weight.
What happens on the day you sit in the chair and it collapses ?
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:57
EID:2227 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840115
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to John Brawley <=-
JB> "The LORD said to Moses, 'Avenge the people of Israel on the
JB> Midianites; afterward you shall be gathered to your
JB> people.'"
JB> Note that in reading on _after_ that, all the actions taken were
JB> taken at the instructions of _Moses_. God does not again
JB> speak until 31:25, in which no hint of the slaughter is
JB> mentioned. (This is about distribution of the booty.)
MG> This is just so much rhetoric. God told Moses to avenge himself.
MG> What else did god mean? God meant for the hebrews to out and kill
MG> their enemies. God does then speak about the division of the booty.
He
MG> makes no mention of what a terrible thing this was or why the hebrews
MG> should never gone out and slaughtered those people. He never tells
MG> them that Moses as misunderstood him.
MG> Your god gave orders to murder those people. And his willing slaves
MG> wne tout and did it.
Question: If a person were going to kill you if you didnt kill him, would
it be a sin to kill that person ?
If a nation were going to be wiped out by an agressor nation, would it be
a sin to kill that aggressor nation in self defence ?
Is capital punishment a sin ? If someone kills 10 people to steal their
money, would taking his life be a sin or a social self defence?
When Jesus was on the cross, did he say it was a sin for all those
criminals to be up there on the crosses beside him ? These are "social"
rules we as people make and live by. SPiritual rules are not on the same
level.
We live on planet EARTH, not in heaven. We have to cope with aggressors
and deal with them to live on this planet.
And finally God can only deal with people on a level that they are able
to comprehend and comply with. At this point in civilization, that was
how god dealt with it.
even today, should we have allowed Hitler to continue massacring innocent
men women and children or should we have taken up arms and stopped the
slaughter as we did ?
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:37:59
EID:1457 205d14a0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840117
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Andrew Masten <=-
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
NS> Andrew Masten > Martin Goldberg : Thumb-sucking Fundy
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Andrew Masten <=-
RS>> And so does the mass killings. Answer the damn question.
RS>> Why does your god murder?
AM> What mass killings you refering to?
MG> Does the name "Jim Jones" ring a bell?
AM> Jim Jones was a pyschotic. That he didn't adhere to Christ's
AM> teaching is self evident.
NS> You mean that Jesus didn't imply (Luke 19:27) that those who didn't
NS> accept him were to be murdered?
NS> You mean that in Acts 5:10 a man refusing to give all of his money
NS> to the apostles was NOT reviled and killed by Peter, was it also
NS> done to the wife of the man when she came looking for him?
NS> You mean that in Exodus 32:14 it doesn't state that God does evil?
NS> You mean that in Isaiah 45:7 it doesn't state that God creates
NS> evil?
NS> You mean that in Jeremiah 26:3 it doesn't state that God inflicts
NS> evil?
NS> You mean that in Lamentations 3:38 it doesn't say that evil comes
NS> from the mouth of God?
NS> You mean that in Mark 4:11-12 it doesn't say that Jesus withheld
NS> his teachings from the gentiles (by speaking in parables) so that
NS> only the jews could get conversion and forgiveness for their sins?
NS> You mean that in Joshua 7:20-26 that Archen, who kept some of his
NS> spoil of conquest for himself rather than turning it over to the
NS> priests, was not stoned and burned to death along with his innocent
NS> sons and daughters, that God may be happy?
NS> You mean that God didn't order Saul (I Samuel 15:3-4) to kill all
NS> the Amalekites, including women, infants, and suckling babes?
NS> Etcetera, etcetera . . . how many examples more do you want? Seems
NS> pretty clear to me that Jim Jones was absolutely in touch with the
NS> teachings/policies of Yahweh/Jesus.
God can only reveal himself to man as man is able to perceive of God.
THESE are the perceptions men had of the will of god in these situations.
Man is not always correct in his perceptions.
On top of that when people choose to do things that they know will require
they forfeit their own lives, It is they who choose their fate.
... What do you mean? You actually read this tagline?!?
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:38:00
EID:7163 205d14c0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840118
EF> If one accepts the premise of the Biblical God, there can be no
EF> serious argument that his will had not been done. Taking his "share"
EF> of the virgins is just the topper. Believers don't dispute it Even
Pat
EF> Robertson, speaking specifically about Numbers 31, gives God full
EF> credit. I have a 700 club transcript of him discussing it in some
EF> detail. Naturally he leaves out the part about the virgins being
EF> spared [That's what a fundie would do].
EF> Well I hope that clears this up. I'll try to post the Robertson thing
EF> too.
Well I believe Pat Robertson was a Marine, and I have already drawn a
parrallel to ending Hitlers tyranny after the abysmal failure of the
"appeasement policy". God has to deal with people in a way people will
understand and accept. The more primitive the people, the more primitive
the method that must be used for them to comprehend and execute.
It is the miraculous nature of some of these victories that must also
be taken into consideration, not just the one you choose to pick out.
... Pardon me, but would you have any Blue Poupon?
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Very much mythology!
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:38:01
EID:6acd 205d14c0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e840119
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Rodney Green <=-
KR> He's dead, at any rate. Not much to talk about.
rg> God is alive, Jesus is very much alive
rg> in the hearts of TRUE believers everywhere.
FR> By that illogic, there are millions of deities -- billions if you
FR> include ancestor worship. That's pretty silly, Rodney.
I prefer to think of it as billions of different perceptions of the SAME
diety :-)
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:38:02
EID:56f8 205d14c0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84011a
TL> Many have distracted themselves from the need for justice by obsessing
TL> on child abuse allegations aimed at Branch Davidian leader, David
TL> Koresh. He is dead, and can no longer harm anyone. But, govt agents
TL> who followed orders to drive tanks thru a residence occupied with men,
TL> women and children, are still at large.
NS> The idea still hasn't crawled into your skull and died yet that
NS> perhaps Koresh was the one responsible for these deaths? And
NS> idiots use all of the above to justify the bombing at Oklahoma
NS> City, etc. I tell you, this country has more morons per square
NS> mile than ANY third world country . . .
I agree, if the officials went to the farm with a warrant and the
occupants denied entry or resisted arrest, THEY are responsible
for the outcome.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:38:03
EID:0f47 205d14c0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84011b
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to George Mooth <=-
> SIGNS OF LOVE
> Read: John 14:15-24
> If you love Me, keep my commandments.
> -John 14:15
FR> SIGNS OF HATE
FR> Read: Luke 14:26
FR> "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and
FR> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
FR> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
Why do I get the feeling that this verse has been misinterpreted ?
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 29 Feb 96 02:38:05
EID:455c 205d14c0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e84011d
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to George Mooth <=-
> THE BLESSING OF PERSECUTION
> Read: Matthew 5:1-12
> Blessed are those who are persecuted
> for righteousness' sake, for theirs
> is the kingdom of heaven.
> -Matthew 5:10
FR> THE BLESSING OF RAPE AND MURDER
FR> Read: Numbers 31:17-18
FR> "Now therefore kill every male among the little
FR> ones, and kill every woman who hath known man by
FR> lying with him. But all the women children, that have
FR> not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for
FR> yourselves."
Actually this sounds quite HUMANE. Think about it. No point having all
those orphaned children and widows around after their hubbys have died
in the war.
And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for your
new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you continue
the race through the virgins.
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
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|From: Pam Gray
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 29 Feb 96 12:43:13
EID:0705 205d6560
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1e8dd9cd
Boni,
I've seen the "discussions" between you and Lucy - 'tems fighten words!!!!
BH> Who are ya apologizing to? These messages ain't goin' nowhere!...:-)
BH>
You may NEVER know!!!! :)
Take care,
Pam
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Boni Hitch
|Sub: Re: 325
|Date: 01 Mar 96 08:52:34
EID:f2f7 20614680
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 1f0912ad
-=> Quoting Boni Hitch to Pam Gray <=-
PG>Well we could but we wouldn't have as much fun...
PG>BH> I'd LOVE to be able to bash stuff around HolySmoke but the messages
PG>BH> don't go and I got tired of typing for nothing. Jeez, we could go
the
PG>BH> "Religions" at RofD--but we don't really disagree...:-)
PG>Oh well I guess we just have to talk about something else elsewhere -
we b
PG>could check out the other debating base! :)
BH> Avoid ToxicNet unless you're into no-moderator, "brutal"...
I just came from there...OWCH ! Man they tried to kick me out just
because they didn't agree with my opinions. They used everything,
flamers, misquoting, lieing, accusations and worst of all,
"personal" attacks that had nothing to do with the topic under
discuassion.
PG>Apologies for being off topic...
BH> Who are ya apologizing to? These messages ain't goin' nowhere!...:-)
BH>
Umm what was the topic here anywayz :-)
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
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|From: David Robins
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Quote
|Date: 01 Mar 96 02:39:58
EID:06fd 206114e0
MSGID: 1:247/312.0 3137a894
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef315
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Reg]
TID: GE 1.11+
___ Quoting Fredric Rice to David Robins re Quote on 25 Feb 96 14:01:00
dr> Nice... you can take out the "likely" and change it to:
dr> Evolution is ultimately from the devil, for if people
dr> believe that they are products of random chance they
dr> will never turn to God.
FR> Version 2.0 increases the level of ignorant superstition
FR> nicely. Thanks!
Glad you approve . I prefer to call this version 1.00 final
gamma, though. If people went thru versions that fast then MS Windows
would be at 22.0 or so now... not that that would improve it any :(.
Version 1.00â merely removes any traces of ambiguity (that's a big word
for
a little ""fundy-basher"" like you isn't it? I had a nasty time remembering
it, then it just came to me... you might say it was heaven sent, well,
obviously _you_ wouldn't say that :). I didn't want anyone to think I was
only halfway sincere with that "likely" (ouch) in there.
BTW: what kind of program do you use for adding those quotes? Home-grown
or an adaption of another program?
Dave
`H kàpis çou kupiou 'Iîsou æîçà ãàvçwv...
ú úùÄúÄù--Ä-ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-Ä--ÄùÄúÄùú ú
Overlord - sysop: Death's Vortex @ 1-905-892-5619
Vortex WHQ - F'REQ "VORTEX" for product list.
ú úùÄúÄù--Ä-ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-Ä--ÄùÄúÄùú ú
... That which does not kill us...will be darn funny some day.
--- No Walruses!
* Origin: Bloom County - Welland, Ontario >>(905) 732-9956<< (1:247/312)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 29 Feb 96 11:59:00
EID:a619 205d5f60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 13736151
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Fredric Rice <=-
Good morning, Steve.
SQ> I got a kick out of this "curse." -My- return curse is that every
SQ> time I hear the name "Asmodeus" or read it in a book, I'm going to be
SQ> able to say "Hey, I've got a neat story to go with that." We may not
SQ> know this clown's real name, but it sure is funny to think that so
SQ> many can receive so much entertainment at his expense.
My only regret is that he was convinced to leave so quickly. I almost wet
myself when I read his curse of J.J. My wife heard me muttering "This kid
doesn't realize what he's in for." It was great.
J.J. counting down. Four or five others demanding a curse of their very
own. And best yet, Asmodeus alternately claiming that a) he didn't really
curse J.J., b) the curse was just starting to grow, and c) he missed and
hit Al's drier.
Sometimes this place is like a Saturday Night Live skit!
Take care.
(BTW, His name is Larry. I bet he hangs around with Moe and Curly.)
... I was always my own severest critic. Then I got married. (Hagar)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: campbell
|Date: 29 Feb 96 12:22:00
EID:56f3 205d62c0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 13736161
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Michael Hardy <=-
Good morning, Al.
AS> as Mt. St. Helens erupting (coincidentally, happening on the week of
AS> my honeymoon, which might cause some to believe in sympathetic magic
Naw. It was Asmodeus curse of J.J., ricocheting throught time to get
you at a key moment in your life.
Take care.
... They jest at scars that never felt a wound. (Shakespeare)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.07 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Sault Ste. Marie,On 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:15:29
EID:7725 205c61e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa44
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to George Rudzinski <=-
-
LB> I'm sorry to hear that, Mark. Please pass on my condolences to Jim
--
LB> and to you as well.
GR> Gee! Like he is experiencing something new on earth?
MS> .....No, it's not something new on earth but it is still a
MS> tragedy when it happens to a loved one....
Part of life, grow up.
GR> The man croaked like we are all going to. I have it stipulated in my
GR> will that when I die there is to be no funeral. That is called being
a
GR> prick from the grave.
MS> ....No, that is called not having any friends who give a rats
MS> about your disgruntled mass....
No it means I have friends that think wailing over a dead body doesn't
make
any more sense than praying to a god that doesn't exist.
And why waste a few thousand dollars to bury some dead meat? I would rather
see my money help pay for a grandchild's college education.
The thought of being laid out like a side of beef while people look at my
dead body and remark at how good I look is repugnant to me.
Nope that isn't for me. A cinder block in the bottom of a canvass body
bag
and a trip to the bottom of the ocean is the way I'm going. It is cheap
and
I get recycled as nature intended.
GR> And Mark isn't being very honest. They let him die. Pneumonia is
MS> ...Ohh, give it up George...."We let him Die" what a thing to
MS> say, even for you.
Hardly. I let my mother die. We might have been able to keep her alive
for
years. Considering the shape she was in and her wishes it was pointless.
pneumonia is only treatable if the body is
MS> strong enough to withstand the time which my Fathers' wasn't.
Huh? Did they treat him with antibiotics or not? If he wasn't treated
with
anti-biotics I'll wager someone in the family made the decision to let him
go.
GR> treatable. I'm glad they wised up and let him die, but why let him
GR> suffer until he contracted pneumonia and then suddenly withold
GR> treatment?
MS> What were we supposed to do?...Suffocate him with a
MS> pillow?....Feed him poison thru his feeding tube to his stomache or
MS> just let him starve to death?
You could have given Jack a call.
And yes you could have let him starve to death. Nothing new in the world,
we
let thousands starve to death every day. Why would you think that was such
a
cruel thing to do?
I have to ask myself what made a
MS> person like you so terribly uncompassionate and hateful towards
MS> mankind.....
Not hateful, just pragmatic. How much money was spent trying to keep your
father alive for the last three months of his life? That money could have
been
spent on immunizing children.
And what kind of quality of life did he have those last three months? Would
you want to die like he did? Would you want your children to die like he
did?
I personally have no intention living out my days with tubes stuck in me
to
give me even one more day of life. I don't want to put myself through
that
and I sure don't want to put my family through that. It simply isn't fair
to them.
Death is simply another part of life. A person's death is a time to celebrate
their memory. It is a time to celebrate a passing on of the glories of
life
to a new generation. Death is not something to be feared. That would be
a
waste of time, for we all die.
And I have no hate of mankind. I just can't work up a whole lot of sympathy
for the inevitable death of one man when so many preventable deaths are
allowed.
MS> You are truely the Devils' right hand man!
Sorry! I don't believe in any of your gods.
george
... National Center for Missing & Abused Children. Call 1-800-THE-LOST.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:23:10
EID:7725 205c62e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa45
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Styx Allum <=-
-=> Quoting Styx Allum to MaRk Staal <=-
SA> @MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 1c0b1233
> .....FYI, Jim, Lon, Br.Jimmy and the rest of the alais'
> have left the echo for good
SA> We've heard this story before. We know how it (never) ends.
SA> Jimbo has already slipped up a couple of times.
MS> ....That may be, but, when I last spoke to him he was quite serious
MS> about this and said he wasn't coming back because of the abuse his
MS> wife was taking from CERTIAN people on this echo.....So, I wouldn't
MS> bet the farm that he'll be back real soon if ever.
Now I know you are really a Staal. You are a loser.
Ä Area: Skeptical Religion Debate Echo ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 2428 Date: 27 Feb 96 22:04:38
From: Jim Staal Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Styx Allum Mark:
Subj: Jim Staal
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
On (25 Feb 96) Styx Allum wrote to MaRk Staal...
> .....FYI, Jim, Lon, Br.Jimmy and the rest of the alais'
> have left the echo for good
SA> We've heard this story before. We know how it (never) ends.
SA> Jimbo has already slipped up a couple of times.
Only once, sir...ok...this twice.
... "Mommy, Mommy, what's an Oedipus complex?" "Shut up and kiss me."
-!- PPoint 2.00
! Origin: God's Advocate... (1:228/26.14)
And your brother is an obligate liar.
So much for the word of a Staal.
george
... Fundies give mutton a bad name, sheep march on Washington in protest.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:32:11
EID:7725 205c6400
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa46
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
-
MH> ... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a weakened
MS> body, Pneumonia.
MH> I'm sorry to hear that. My father died of heart disease seven years
MH> ago this month. It's hard to lose a parent.
MS> ......Thank You. I know some of you don't agree with me on this,
MS> but, I believe he's in a better place now and at least finished with
MS> his suffering....I can at least find comfort in that.
Mark,
Even though you folks prolonged his suffering?
Would you have let a pet dog suffer that long? Why did you find it
unconscienable to do for your father what you would have done for a suffering
pet?
The only better place he is, is dead. And if you were so confident that
he
is in a better place why prolong his suffering here?
Why do you believers in this mythical heaven always want to prolong suffering?
Do you think you did your father any favors? You know one day you are going
to be in that position. I hope your children are more compassionate.
george
... Lying is easy for Christians, they have Sunday.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Rice's pisces
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:38:56
EID:d686 205c64c0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa47
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
-
MS> .....the only reason we might sound the same is because we're
MS> brothers just like Dave and Fred rice sound the same(are they the
MS> same?) but we are 2 totally different people...
MH> No, they aren't the same. David is marginally smarter. I guess he
MH> finished high school or something.
MS> ......Oooo, OUCH! But nevertheless, I hope alot more people
MS> realize I'm not Jim and let me go back to the way things were when I
MS> first started in Smoke......Well, maybe even better than that. Maybe
MS> on more of a human, down to earth, civilized manner.
You have been living in white-bread land far too long. The real world isn't
like that.
If I can demonstrate that you are an ignorant goof, I'm going to. If you
want
to have your ego massaged, you are going to have to find another place to
do
it.
george
... Conservative integration - A white golfer with a black caddie.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:43:28
EID:7725 205c6560
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa48
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Steve Rose <=-
-=> Quoting Steve Rose to Mark Staal <=-
SR> @MSGID: 1:109/601.0 12f8000d
MS> ......Enough to make it stronger than the "I hate blacks and
MS> gays" group you belong to....besides, the next time you want to
MS> talk to Jim address the mail to _him_! If you can't comprehend
MS> the fact that Jim is not here no more and that Mark Staal and
MS> Lump are the same
SR> Can you switch back to your Jim Staal persona? You sounded a lot more
SR> intelligent when you played his character on this echo.
MS> ......Oh well, I tried to explain it to you but you won't
MS> believe me, so, Go on with your silly game of who's who.
You morons started the silly game of who's who by posting using various
and
sundry names. You aren't trusted because of your own actions. Don't blame
us for what you have done to instill lack of trust.
You started the game, now you have to live with the consequences.
george
... Prayers are the babblings of the brainless.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Re: Staal won't Drink it either, Ken
|Date: 28 Feb 96 12:58:55
EID:12ad 205c6740
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa49
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to Sean McCullough <=-
KM> Sunday February 25 1996 18:51, Sean McCullough mumbled to Kenneth
KM> Mcabee:
>> FR>> Either drink it or admit you're a fraud.
>> FR> Either drink up or admit you're a fraud.
>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.....
SM> In other words, you're a fraud.
KM> Sean,
KM> In other words, the attempt to try and make me doubt God because
KM> others here misinterpet the Bible and think that those that are saved
KM> are to drink poison to prove that they are saved, will not work.
We already know you doubt god because you won't drink.
You prefer to call Jesus a liar.
You
KM> see I have read more than just a couple of verses, and I know that I
KM> am not suppose to tempt God.
Mark 16:15-18 is Jesus talking. You are dis-obeying god.
Drinking poison to show you that I am
KM> saved, would be, me tempting God to protect me. He will protect me,
KM> but I am not suppose to drink something just to prove it to you.
But you have proved to god that you don't trust him to protect you. You
know
you are dead meat if you drink.
Drinking poison is supposed to be a sign of the faithful to convert folks
like
me. It is the only means in the Bible where I can decide if you are a believer
or just false christian scum.
KM> Christ did not give signs to the non-believers when he was asked to,
KM> and as a Christain, someone who follows Christ, I am not suppose to
KM> give you such a sign either.
Mark 16:15-18 says you are.
All your proving is YOUR disbelief,
KM> not mine.
Yet you are the one that won't trust god and show the signs of a believer
as
Christ said you would.
You are just another hollow christian moron with a god. And as such, you
lie.
You say you believe the Bible but when asked to show you do, you lie some
more.
Christ said that believers would be known by their actions. I doubt he
meant
faithless liars.
george
... You handle religion by first cutting it off, and then killing it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Jim Owens
|Sub: Re: Comminuion
|Date: 28 Feb 96 13:33:11
EID:75c3 205c6c20
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa4a
-=> Quoting Jim Owens to Don Martin <=-
DM> JO> Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
DM> You would appear to be the only one who has not. Consult
DM>the anthropology section of your library for further details.
JO> Of course I am aware of the practice of canabilism in certain
JO> religons, but I am trying to find out if any one has any information
or
JO> knows where to find a specific link to a partictular christian ritual.
Jim,
"This is my body eat, this is my blood drink."
JO> For a way of background on why I want to know... A few years ago, my
JO> wife became a "Born Again Christian"
You poor bastard. You are a few years too late in getting her into therapy
or
getting the hell out.
and is constantly bring home crap
JO> about "hidden messages" in music, avertising, etc., etc.
She needs a good psychiatrist.
These brain-
JO> wash material would have you believe that nearly every thing good in
JO> this world has satanic roots. I simply want to track down and confirm
JO> any and all information that can show that christianity was created
JO> from the same roots as all other mystical religions. I suspect that
JO> all religions have the same source and just evolved over time. When
I
JO> heard about the possible beginnings of the central cristian ritual of
JO> comminuion, I got REAL excited.
Read the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The story of Jesus long before Jesus,
and
conveniently located to the Holy Land. Check out the Epic of Gilgamesh.
The
story of the Biblical flood thousands of years before any Biblical writings.
The Greek story of Hercules preceeds Samson. The Code of Hammurabi is quoted
nearly word for word in Leviticus.
Then check out what is known about the early New Testament. You will find
not
word one before 120 CE. Check out how many secular authors wrote about
Jesus
during his lifetime, there are exactly none. Then check out the earliest
known more or less complete Bible. There isn't one until almost 1000 years
after Christ lived.
Then read these books, "The Nag Hammadi Library" James M. Robinson, General
Editor. ISBN 0-06-066935-7. See what didn't make it into the Bible.
"The Dead Sea Scrolls in English" fourth edition by Geza Vermes. ISBN 0-14-
023730-5. See the scriptures available during the time of Christ.
"Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls" by Barbara Thiering. An
alternative view of the New Testament. Well documented and a good read
from
a respected Biblical scholar.
JO> My wife and I have agreed to disagree on our religious views, but we
JO> still read each other's material and have lively discussions.
I take it back. It sounds like your wife and you have a good relationship.
It sounds like it is worth preserving.
What is
JO> really interesting, is that most of her friends simply cannot
JO> understand how I can keep from being a murderer or a rapist without
JO> having "God in my life".
Tell them you believe in doing unto others as you would have them do unto
you.
And that isn't original with Jesus. Confuscius, 400 years earlier. Add
that
to your list of reads.
I'll come up with a few more for you after I dig threw my material.
If you need help finding some of this stuff I have it stored electronically.
I would be more than happy to send it to you on diskettes.
They say that they will be a celibration when
JO> I get "saved". I always say that I will throw them a bash when ever
JO> they give up their mystical ways and start using logic and science to
JO> guide their lives!
Sounds like you are the only one who might throw a bash. They might grow
up.
I spent 15 years as a Christian. I feel much better now.
george
... Typical fundie, kill his god for him and he doesn't even thank you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 28 Feb 96 13:38:23
EID:50e9 205c6cc0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa4b
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Fredric Rice <=-
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> Brian, its nice to see you read the bible, its a shame you don't know
what
AM> it means. You quoted instances when God was either smitting the enemies
AM> of Israel, or chastising His own people. Have your parents ever corrected
AM> you? Did it mean they didn't love. I let you know a little secret, if
they
AM> didn't correct you, it was because they didn't love you.
FR> That justification for rape, torture, and murder is why the Christanic
FR> death cult has the history that it does, Andy.
FR> It's a pity that you agreed to become part of it.
AM>
AM> Fredric, you read the sayings of Christ, and show me the
AM> justifcation for the deeds your talking about.
Andy,
What sayings of Christ? No book of Jesus in my Bible.
And no, I'm not
AM> ashamed to be apart of it. My life has meaning and direction.
So do ours. The difference is our lives are real. They aren't based on
belief
in Santa.
I have
AM> a real relationship with the Creator of the universe.
Then cough up the chemical formula for the pills on my monitor. Only me
and
the Creator of the Universe know what they are.
If you can't provide the formula it is I who has the personal relationship.
No matter what
AM> troubles there are, I have a real peace and joy.
I enjoy the troubles. It makes life fun!
george
... 1-800-Go-Pat-Go. Contribute to the working man's hero!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 28 Feb 96 13:42:00
EID:738e 205c6d40
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa4c
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> No, Andy, that *is* your quote. You are put out because you aren't
DC> allowed to shift the burden of proof from your claim and are
DC> attempting to make Marty prove a negative. It won't work, leaving
DC> you to do your own legwork.
AM> No, Niether you or Marty need prove a negative, Just offer strong
AM> evidence that were here by naturalist processes in refutation to the
AM> evidence I presented. "Now either provide the evidence or admit that
AM> you don't have any"
No problem!
You have no evidence that the constants of the universe can be anything
other
than what they are.
In Physics we say you are GUTless.
george
... Where religious morons sacrifice virgins only morons remain virgins.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 28 Feb 96 13:55:49
EID:50e9 205c6ee0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa4d
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> Read your book again. The only survivors spared where the
DC> virgin women.
AM>
AM> Yes, thats correct. You would have to read it into the text to
AM> believe they kept them for sex slaves however.
What do you think they kept virgin women for stupid?
george
... "Dole 96! Dole 96!" Gee, he doesn't look a day over 72.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: animalize
|Date: 28 Feb 96 14:01:29
EID:59d5 205c7020
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa4e
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Michael Hardy <=-
-> On 02-25-96 16:55, Michael Hardy got back to Norbert Sykes
MH> You want to believe you're an accidentally animated hunk of meat.
MH> Fine. I refuse to think so lowly of myself, or even of you.
DC> Too bad that that is true, Mikey.
Dan,
I don't see where admitting what we are makes us lower. I still prey on
plants
and animals for food. None of them has made me an item on the menu yet.
MH> You're right that our species isn't essential to the balance of
MH> nature. But that's not the point at all.
DC>
DC> Problem is, it is the point. This world will go on without you,
DC> me, and all of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, for that matter.
Homo sapiens sapiens. You have a reputation to uphold God Dan.
In fact,
DC> at the rate the HSS is using up the planet, the sooner the
DC> better. Our only saving grace may be that we provide enough
DC> usable organic matter to actually continue to go on.
DC> If that makes you feel insignificant, then my job is done.
It won't. He has Jesus in his pocket. Rumor has it that the bulge in his
pocket is actually a hard-on for power.
george
... Typical fundie, kill his god for him and he doesn't even thank you.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: fax
|Date: 28 Feb 96 14:04:19
EID:1efd 205c7080
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa4f
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Michael Hardy <=-
-> On 02-25-96 14:18, Michael Hardy got back to Elliott Finesse
MH> Do you know more about ancient languages than people whose life work
MH> is studying ancient languages?
DC> So, Mikey, what ancient language are you an expert in?
DC> Care to give us a hint?
Dan,
Probably chimp. Wave your arms, and make noise.
Not unlike what he does here.
george
... The Left is everyone who isn't pathologically insane. Noam Chomsky
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: ignorance
|Date: 28 Feb 96 14:10:42
EID:ef38 205c7140
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa50
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Michael Hardy <=-
-> On 02-25-96 12:32, Michael Hardy got back to Styx Allum
-> friend I've ever had... has also had a cold. Some afflictions
-> are merely harder to cure. ;-)
MH> Just what is it that you imagine Christians are ignorant of, Styx?
DC> Reality, Mikey. If you have a god, do trot it out to introduce
DC> itself to us. It's been in hiding over 2,000 yrs now.
Like the pony in the basement when I was a kid. It was there, just trust
me.
Want to buy some horse shit?
DC> In the interim, belief in the critter has caused some 200 Million
DC> deaths minimum in its name.
And you are an optimist. I'll wager the number is over 1 billion.
george
... Where religious morons sacrifice virgins only morons remain virgins.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
* Origin: |=[Bloom Co. Hospital>=--- |[GRapids,MI] (616)361-8345 (1:228/500)
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Mark Simmons
|Sub: Re: echo
|Date: 28 Feb 96 14:27:55
EID:caf7 205c7360
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa51
-=> Quoting Mark Simmons to Masochistic Maiden <=-
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> This is an Echo where clown suits are rapidly shredded and sugar
DC> coatings rapidly washed away.
MM> Why?
MS> Doesn't have to be.
Yes it does.
There are some who will engage in intelligent
MS> conversation without the flames or the attempts at wit.
Allowing clown suits isn't a sign of intelligent conversation.
And if I state that an idiot who wears a clown suit is an idiot, that isn't
a flame. That is a statement of fact.
george
... 1-800-Go-Pat-Go. Contribute to the working man's hero!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Re: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 28 Feb 96 14:35:44
EID:16a1 205c7460
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa52
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Kenneth Mcabee <=-
KD> True, but I see no reason to focus on certain other ones.
KM> Why not?
KD> Because if you are forgiven for them, then they are not valid as a
KD> test of Christianity. You Christians focus on a very small number that
KD> happen to match your cultural biases. Homosexuality is far less
KD> condemned than many dietary things, but it's gays you want laws
KD> against, not pork. Why?
Karen,
Because he can't get laid and is worried he might be gay. He transposes
his
lack of sexual ability onto gay men.
KM> I didn't say lust after a man either did I?
KD> Huh? Who else is there to lust after?
He assumes you are gay. Again he transposes his lack of sexual security.
george
... Conservative integration - Don't ask, don't tell.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 28 Feb 96 14:45:04
EID:1e3b 205c75a0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa53
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Michael Hardy <=-
KD> On (26 Feb 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Brian Kolacy...
MH> So when an atheist decides that his ethics include shooting you in
MH> the face to steal your wallet, you can't raise a moral objection,
MH> right?
KD> It's the Christians who do the shooting.
Karen!
That is verboten! Christians never do the shooting, it is those OTHER
christians that do it.
Never mind that Mikey can't show where atheists are prone to shoot anyone.
I would love to see where Mikey can show where any atheist's ethics allows
them to shoot someone in the face and take their wallet.
Hell! I'm an atheist, last wallet I found, I returned to the owner with
all
the money. The fundie I returned it to was shocked that nothing was taken.
george
... "Dole 96! Dole 96!" Gee, he doesn't look a day over 72.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: George Rudzinski
|To: LES WILCOX
|Sub: Re: Who cares?
|Date: 28 Feb 96 14:47:27
EID:29a0 205c75e0
MSGID: 1:228/500.0 3135aa54
-=> Quoting LES WILCOX to THOMAS DELCANO <=-
-> tithing is required bu jolly ol jehova
LW> Hello Thomas
LW> Sorry. That was the Old Testament.
Les,
Mark 16:15-18.
Try the New Testament. I'll pour.
george
... Where religious morons sacrifice virgins only morons remain virgins.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.11 [NR]
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: jim staal
|Date: 29 Feb 96 15:33:05
EID:0cfe 205d7c20
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3135cbf0
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Mark Staal <=-
KDM> @MSGID: 1:157/200 5c020854
KDM> MARK STAAL spoke thusly to MICHAEL HARDY:
MS>MH> ... I hate funerals. Wouldn't be caught dead at one.
MS>
MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a weakened
MS> body, Pneumonia.
KDM> I'm sorry.
....Thank You for your condolences.....Much appreciated.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 29 Feb 96 15:34:57
EID:eabf 205d7c40
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3135cbf1
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Makr Staal <=-
KS> @MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org f0300253
MS> HEY SCROTUM HEAD! If you can't send mail correctly and to the right
MS> persons, why don't you go back to the school of brainless morons you
MS> came from and learn how? preferably your daddy's womb!
KS> FUNDY MELTDOWN ALERT.
.....Only in my temper....Getting quite sick of being referred to as
my brother Jim. that's alll.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Laughter at Lumpy Sta
|Date: 29 Feb 96 15:35:57
EID:8312 205d7c60
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 3135cbf2
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Mark Staal <=-
KS> @MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org a8096ba2
MS> -=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Mark Staal <=-
MS> FR> Sue is simply trying to help you, Jim. Don't get upset just because
MS> FR> someone trys to help you.
MS> You want to help Jim? Then try sending this to him intead of
MS> me or get a better program to read mail ignoramace.
KS> You can try to ignoramace but it'll still make your eyes water.
....How 'bout ignoramus?????
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello! [2]
|Date: 01 Mar 96 04:25:02
EID:9128 20612320
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136c2ae
REPLY: 1:207/212 743611bc
Tuesday February 27 1996 13:28, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> God did not toy with Job, Satan did. It was Satan that wanted to test
KM>> Job faith, not God.
KD> God let him by specifically making the deal. He gave him the power just
KD> to prove a point. In effect, playing a game with Job as the pawn.
Karen,
Do you ever see anything in God's favor?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 01 Mar 96 04:26:03
EID:e42d 20612340
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136c33d
REPLY: 1:207/212 1ba485d6
Tuesday February 27 1996 13:33, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Sorry to disappoint you, but if the Bible is wrong, then there is no
KM>> God.
KD> If the Bible is wrong there are several possibiliities.
KD> 1. Your option above [that there is no God]
KD> 2. That fallible men wrote their opinion without divine guidance
KD> 3. The creator is some God other than the God[s] of the Bible and is
KD> shown in some other holy work or tradition.
That's your opinion not mine. MY opinion is if the Bible is wrong, then
there is no God. Period, end of line, no more story. When I die I will be
dead dead dead. But while I lived, regardless of whether God exist or not,
I will have lived my life for something that I believed in, right or wrong.
KD> If the Koran is wrong is there no Allah?
Do you really want to get into this conversation?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 01 Mar 96 04:28:04
EID:88f5 20612380
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136c3bc
REPLY: 1:207/212 e04011a3
Tuesday February 27 1996 13:36, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> You expect me to believe someone who does?
KM>> Why would I believe them? They are the ones that had Christ crusified.
KD> And why should I believe someone who believes in the mythology that
he
KD> WAS crucified?
You believe it to be a mythology, I do not. And to be quite frank about
it, I don't understand why someone who believes it to be mythology would
spend so much time here debating it.
KD>> There is no more reason to believe it is true than the Mabinogion is
KD>> true.
KM>> Again your opinion.
KD> And a valid one.
In your opinion, not mine.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 01 Mar 96 04:30:05
EID:d007 206123c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136c915
REPLY: 1:207/212 6720e4e6
Tuesday February 27 1996 13:37, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Frankly, I don't care. I don't want to be with your god anyway.
KD>> Spending eternity with someone who hates me isn't exactly a wonderful
KD>> thought.
KM>> Hated you so much he sent his own Son to die on cross so that you
KM>> could live.
KD> I don't need any man to die on a cross so I can live. I'm alive now,
am
KD> I not? No other type or level of existence is in evidence.
Physically your alive, spiritually if you do not know Jesus Christ as your
personnel saviour, you are dead. The people in Revelation 20 that stand
before God, did not all physically die, but the Bible calls them all "dead".
KD>> True, but I see no reason to focus on certain other ones.
KM>> Why not?
KD> Because if you are forgiven for them, then they are not valid as a test
KD> of Christianity. You Christians focus on a very small number that happen
KD> to match your cultural biases. Homosexuality is far less condemned than
KD> many dietary things, but it's gays you want laws against, not pork.
Why?
I don't want laws against gays. Just because I do not think that thier lifestyle
is biblicly (sp?) correct, does not mean that they do not have the right
to live together. If I wanted laws against them, I would logically have
to want laws against people having sex with anyone that was not thier spouse.
Laws against drinking, smoking, cussing, not going to church on Sunday,
not teaching others about Christ. BTW you are forgiven for all sins, and
that includes the ten commandments.
KM>> I didn't say lust after a man either did I?
KD> Huh? Who else is there to lust after?
Lust is more then just a sexual desire.
KD>> I've only sinned if you get down to the nitty gritty little picky
KD>> stuff that is no more stressed than things you do every day.
KM>> But according to the Bible, you have sinned.
KD> Well, so do you every day. What are you wearing right now? Do you
KD> observe the nitty gritty laws about relations with your wife as relates
KD> her monthly cycle? Do you keep kosher? Do you sacrifice things?
You've just learned the first thing that you have to know in order to get
to heaven. That everyone is a sinner. What am I wearing right now? socks,
long johns, teeshirt. (Yes, my thighs are covered) Keep things kosher, a
commandment to Israel, not the gentiles. Do I sacrifice things, no I don't
have have to, Christ was the final sacrifice.
KD>> Time for the faq here, I guess. Being head of something is higher
KD>> status automatically.
KM>> Your opinion not mine.
KD> Being head of a company isn't higher status than the mail room? It's
KD> paid more... more decision making power, higher status. Men being head
KD> of the house - making money as opposed to the woman slaving after his
KD> kids and relying on his handouts, making the decisions and handing them
KD> down and royal decrees.
Like I said it's still your opinion. BTW my wife makes almost as much money
as I do. She does not have to rely on my handouts. We talk about any decision
that needs to be made together, they are never handed down as a royal decree.
KD>> Then why was it a punishment for Adam and Eve?
KM>> Earth was not a punishment for Adam and Eve.
KD> Genesis 3:23-24. They were driven out of Eden as a punishment and out
of
KD> God's fear that they'd eat from the tree of LIFE. Sounds like a jail
to
KD> me.
"Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till
the ground from whece he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed
at the est of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned
every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Nope does not call it a
punishment, however I can see your point. But the punishment was having
to leave Eden, having to live on the Earth.
KM>> Before you were decieved by the devil.
KD> Your opinion. No deception here, clear thinking rationality.
All part of the deception.
KD> Of course
KD> your ilk in their opposition to science and other clear htinking
KD> probably considers that the devil anyway.
Not opposed to science, was one of my favorite classes in school.
KD> In fact, that is a Biblical point of view. Knowledge is a dangerous
KD> thing to Christians.
KM>> Oh, excuse me for a spelling error, guess I'm not perfect yet. BTW
you
KM>> don't have to believe me, all you have to do is read the accounts in
KM>> the Bible.
KD> I've read them many times. All I find is a woman hating group of men
who
KD> wrote down their mythology.
But apparantly you've never understood them.
KD>> The earth was their jail. Their punishment for eating the fruit.
KM>> Your opinion.
KD> Backed up with Genesis.
Still your opinion, the Bible does not say that the earth was thier punishment,
it shows that they had to leave Eden for eating the fruit. Not that they
had to live on the earth for eating the fruit.
KM>> Obviously he did, since anyone that accepts his Son as saviour gets
to
KM>> live forever.
KD> I don't see any evidence of living forever.
That's your problem.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 01 Mar 96 04:53:06
EID:d007 206126a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136c96b
REPLY: 1:207/212 5da83fa9
Tuesday February 27 1996 13:49, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> And what did God threaten to do to the Jews with Moses because they
KD>> made the Golden Calf?
KD>> What did God do to every human but Noah and his family?
KD>> Sounds like he's not able to handle that emotion.
KD> Speak to the point.
Karen,
So I have to say exactly what you want me to say? When you decide to listen
to what is said we can continue this conversation.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 01 Mar 96 04:54:07
EID:d007 206126c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136c9f4
REPLY: 1:207/212 77d166fa
Tuesday February 27 1996 13:49, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> Yup. It is too much to ask this rational human being to believe in
KD>> something for which there is no evidence.
KM>> The evidence was given, you just don't believe it.
KD> Where? I don't see any evidence.
That's the problem, you see the Bible, but you don't see what is really
there.
KM>> Where did the seeds come from? Or the moss.....
KD> Prior living things.
Had to start somewhere didn't it?
KD>> Mythology is the supernatural folklore of a culture. Your Bible fits
KD>> the bill just perfectly.
KM>> It's not folklore, it's truth.
KD> Evidence?
BIBLE
KD> Each of the stories fits PRECISELY in the folklore index I've
KD> studied. The episodic nature calls to mind the Mabinogion.
That's another one of Satan deceptions, provide enough false religion and
mythology, and pretty soon, people start putting what is true with that
which is false.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 01 Mar 96 04:57:08
EID:8dd0 20612720
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136ca58
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3133b515
Tuesday February 27 1996 05:24, Kenneth Cavness mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> has given the final sacrifice, it is finished, no further sacrifice
is
KM>> required. Kenneth Mcabee
KC> So, while child sacrifice was hunky dory in the Old Testament, it's
not
KC> okay now.
If you read the account again you could see that Abraham never believed
that he would actually have to sacrifice his child.
KC> Your god sure is mercurial.
He sure is, praise the Lord.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: He's Jealous! He's Crazy!
|Date: 01 Mar 96 04:58:09
EID:504a 20612740
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136ca7f
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3133b517
Tuesday February 27 1996 05:33, Kenneth Cavness mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Jealousy is not a problem, it's a natural emotion.
KC> And people wonder why our society is sinking into oblivion...
Kenneth,
I don't wonder I know...
As in the days of Noah...
As in the days of Lot....
'nough said.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:01:10
EID:d095 20612820
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136cbe6
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 1d503f00
Tuesday February 27 1996 17:51, Karl Schneider mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> I and my Father are one. That makes ONE God.
DC>> So, just who was your godling praying to? Some false god in heaven?
KS> Telling blow. Fast, short, and succinct. I've used that one many
KS> times. Funny, I can't remember ever getting an argument back....
KS> What's your answer to this one, Ken? Not that I expect one...
Karl,
You place limits on God, I do not. God is represented as the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Ghost. They are all God, but are different entities of
God, not that different gods, but different entities of the same one true
God. How can it be? Quite frankly I don't know, but I do know that the Bible
says that the Word was both with and was God. That's what I need to know.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal also has great Ignorance of history
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:05:11
EID:61f1 206128a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136ccb1
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30e
Sunday February 25 1996 18:50, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>>> Look at your own hatred, Ken, and note that the death
FR>>> cult you joined has a history that fits you.
FR> Interesting. You elected not to quote your hatred and bigotry this
time
FR> around. Gee. Perhaps death cult fundies _are_ capable of learning
FR> afterall.
Still can't find the word "fundies" in any dictionary, so they must not
exist.
km>>> I have no hatred Fred. And I have joined no death cult.
FR>> You have basically joined the KKK and then
fr>> demanded you're not a racist bigot.
km>> No, Fred, I haven't or maybe you missed the part
km>> in the Bible that tells us to love everybody?
FR> Woops! The cultist never read his mythologies:
FR> Luke 14:26 is pretty good: "Whoever comes to me and does
FR> not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers
FR> and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my
FR> disciple." (NRSV) See too, Matt. 19:29.
Woops! Fred can't see the lesson. BTW Fred if your going to quote the Bible
to me, use the KJV, I don't read any other.
FR> When are you going to actually _READ_ your death cult mythologies, Ken?
When are you?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it either, Ken
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:08:12
EID:5bd7 20612900
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136cdcf
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef30f
Sunday February 25 1996 18:51, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>>> Either drink it or admit you're a fraud.
km>>> Go read the Bible and tell me what Christ
km>>> said when someone asked him for a sign?
FR>> Go read your mythologies and tell me who lied when they claimed
fr>> you could drink up and not be harmed.
km>> What mythologies?
FR> Pretending ignorance over and above what you already hold to escape
the
FR> embarrassing fact that _YOU_ refuse to drink up is silly, Ken. You
know
FR> you are afraid to drink because you KNOW that your mythologies are all
FR> lies.
FR> Doubt it? Drink.
Fredric,
I do not have any myghologies. YOU want to only read what you want from
the Bible, take it out of context and meaning, just to try and prove your
invalid point.
I will explain this one last time. Christ taught us, by example what to
do with a request like yours. We have been commanded not to tempt our Lord.
While YOU might be tempting or testing me and my faith. In order for ME
to pass YOUR test I would have to tempt or test my LORD. And that I have
shown and commandment not to do. "Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God"
is what Christ told Satan, and that is what I am to tell you.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal probably also believes in McDowell
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:13:13
EID:d4ce 206129a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d01f
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef310
Sunday February 25 1996 18:53, Fredric Rice mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
FR>>>> And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see
FR>>>> it as a sacrifice. Whether that is what is meant by you in
FR>>>> the question or not. I would see it as such. - Kenneth Mcabee
FR>> What utter evil the Christanic death cult is.
km>> Where the admission that I would commit such
km>> an act Fred, come on, I'm still waiting for it.....
FR> There is it, cultist, reproduced faithfully above. You're an admitted
FR> Christanic death cultist and there you are claiming you would have no
FR> problem murdering your own son when you start hearing voices in your
head.
FR> But we know you're only lying. We know you're not a TRUE Christian.
We
FR> have discovered together that you KNOW the Christanic mythologies are
FR> lies.
Look at it Fred.
"And again David if God asked me to kill my son, I would see it as a sacrifice."
Any admission there that I would do it? No.
"Whether that is what is meant by you in the question or not. I would see
it as such."
Any admission there that I would do it? Again, the answer is no.
You won't post the whole conversation, I doubt that you even bothered to
archive it because it would prove you wrong. There was never an admission
anywhere in the whole conversation that I would kill my son. Matter of fact,
I wasn't saying that God would even ask me to kill my son, THAT was what
the whole conversation was about if the first place.
You've taken little piece of a conversation and have tried to use it to
show that I would be willing to sacrifice my son, and it says nothing of
the sort. But why should I be surprised? You take little parts of the Bible
and use them, just as the way you use the quote above, out of context, out
of meaning, and try to twist it around to suit what you want it to mean.
And you fail at it miserbly.
My conversation with you is over. At this point I will do as I have been
commanded to do, I will stompt the dust off my feet and leave your door.
This does not mean that I will stop posting here, just that you have been
added to my twit list.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Moral Relatives
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:28:14
EID:8c02 20612b80
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d179
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3134590b
Wednesday February 28 1996 05:03, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
EF>> Here is a question for you I'm sure you will never give me a straight
EF>> answer to: What deed would be so terrible for your god to perform that
EF>> it would outrage even a radical moral relativist such as yourself?
KM>> I'll give you your straight answer. I don't question God.
GR> And I've demonstrated that that is a lie.
GR> Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour.
George,
And I've demonstrated that we are not to tempt the Lord our God.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Relative Stupidity
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:29:15
EID:79d8 20612ba0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d297
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3134590c
Wednesday February 28 1996 05:06, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Since I say them "exactly as though they were facts", that should tell
KM>> you that I do indeed believe in God. And since I do believe that he
is
KM>> more powerful than us, and that he can indeed to anything, tell me,
KM>> where's the logic in asking me for evidence?
GR> Another lie. You don't believe he is more powerful than my knowledge
of
GR> chemistry. And you certainly don't believe he can do anything. Mark
GR> 16:15-18.
GR> In fact you call your god a liar on this point.
No I don't, just because I refuse to tempt God with your little test, does
not mean that I call God a liar. Is there any example in the Bible of someone
purposely drinking poison to prove that they were faithful?
KM>> Since you know that I
KM>> believe the Bible, and since the Bible tells us that if you will not
KM>> believe in it that you will not believe, where the logic in asking
me
KM>> for evidence that won't make any difference anyway?
GR> Where is the logic in Jesus saying his followers will show signs? Which
I
GR> might remind you that you are not a follower.
Will show signs, does not mean that we will purposely go around providing
signs. We show signs by the things that we say and do, not the little test
that you think up for us to give you a sign. Christ refused to give signs
to the those that did not believe in him, you have to have faith in him.
To those that did not have the faith he called an evil and adulterous nation,
he told them that your not suppose to tempt the Lord. There is a difference
between showing a sign by the things that you do, and providing a sign to
the unfaithful on purpose.
EF>> Perhaps you meant that requesting evidence from *you* for whatever
you
EF>> say is stupid. If so, you might have a point. But if you meant it is
EF>> stupid to expect there to _be_ any evidence, then I suggest you
EF>> reflect on the intelligence of making the kind of categorical
EF>> assertions you have, knowing full well they cannot be supported with
EF>> anything other than "because I say so."
KM>> It's not "because I say so" it's because God said so.
GR> Mark 16:15-18. It is not because I say so it's because God said so.
"Thou shall tempt thy Lord thy God."
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: The Might Stuff
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:34:16
EID:5263 20612c40
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d31d
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 31345914
Wednesday February 28 1996 05:55, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
EF>> Excuse me? He *HAD* to kill? This _is_ the same guy you claim can do
EF>> anything, right? Or is he only omnipotent when he wants to be a big
EF>> shot? When it comes time to dish out the responsibility he's back to
EF>> "hey, I just work here" ?
KM>> If God killed then he had to do it.
GR> Not much of a god that has to kill.
You haven't learned the second lesson that one has to know in order to get
to heaven. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
KM>> You forget that I believe that God
KM>> is perfect as well, and as such, he cannot make mistakes.
GR> Try Mark 16:15-18. It is God's word and can't be a mistake.
Try Matthew 4:7
EF>> Is that what you are saying Ken? Just because you believe your god
can
EF>> _do_ anything doesn't give you license to *SAY* anything. Ok?
KM>> I've only told what I have learned from the Bible, it's not my fault
KM>> if you have not learned the same lesson now, is it?
GR> Mark 16:15-18. Learn the lesson Kenny, don't just graze.
Matthew 4:7
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: NOT a Ringer, I swear!
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:36:17
EID:1a69 20612c80
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d425
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 31345915
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:02, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>>> God said that if you sin you must
KM>>>> die, and you condemn him for doing what he said.
EF>> No Ken. Let's just stick with the innocent victims of your god. There
EF>> are plenty and we never even have to leave the Bible.
KM>> No, Elliott let's stick to the point. The "innocent victims" is your
KM>> opinion.
GR> So you believe that a fetus spontaneously aborted goes to hell because
GR> they never chose Jesus? And what sin did they commit?
No I don't, they weren't born into sin.
GR> Now you make the claim they are children. If they are, your god killed
GR> these children. For what reason? What was their sin?
Where did I say that?
EF>> Asside to Ken: When you alter your opponent's argument to his
EF>> detriment and pretend it is your opponent's true position - like you
EF>> do here:
EF>> "...you condemn him for doing what he said..."
EF>> ...it is considered a breech of ethics(1). Look up the word if
EF>> necessary. Anyway, try to avoid this in the future, ok Bud? Thanks!
KM>> Do you or do you not condemn God?
GR> I condemn your man made contruct that you label God.
I wasn't asking you, however I have no man mae contruct that I label God.
EF>> (Now back to the show which is already in progress ....)
EF>> Anyway, my point is this, Ken: your god is condemned around here for
EF>> his vicious, blood thirsty behavior toward life on this planet(2) -
as
EF>> chronicled in your Bible, NOT "...for doing what he said."
KM>> Really? Did he do what he said he would?
GR> No he didn't. He did not give his son as the perfect sacrifice.
Really? And just who was this Jesus that died on the cross?
EF>> I was intending to use this discussion of your god's behavior as a
EF>> springboard to my main premise, which is: That Christian
EF>> fundamentalism, at its core, teaches radical moral relativism.
EF>> But you Ken, bless your heart, have saved me much ground work. I
EF>> couldn't have hoped for a better example of what I intended to prove.
EF>> I just hope people won't think you are my ringer.
KM>> So you already believed that Christian fundamentalism teaches "radical
KM>> moral relativism". And since I am a Christian and a fundamentalist,
KM>> there's no way that I could do anything but fit into your opinion of
KM>> Christian fundamentalism, now was there?
GR> You are no Christian, they are known by signs. Mark 16:15-18. As Steve
GR> Winters would say, you are just false Christian scum.
Matthew 4:7 and I'll bet you can't get Stever Winters to drink either, even
if his doctrine is all messed up.
EF>> (1) References upon request.
EF>> (2) Remember Ken: I am not saying your god exists, I am merely
EF>> accepting the premise for the sake of discussion. Try not to let it
EF>> confuse you, ok Bud?
KM>> If you are "merely accepting the premise" then you can never
KM>> understand it. Try not to let that confuse you OK?
GR> Speaking of accepting premises! Mark 16:15-18. Accept the word of
your
GR> Saviour.
I will accept the word on my Saviour Matthew 4:7.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Kenny is back into his de
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:41:18
EID:a78d 20612d20
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d496
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 31345917
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:07, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KDM>> Sooner or later, Ken, you will admit that "fundy" is a word.
KM>> Yup, your probably right, but not until I obey a dictionary and see
KM>> "fundy" listed.
GR> So you like to obey books?
Not, just don't like proof reading.
GR> Fine obey the Lord's. Mark 16:15-18.
I will obey the Lord, Matthew 4:7
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:42:19
EID:bcce 20612d40
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d4b5
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 31345918
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:11, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> You expect me to believe someone who does?
KM>> Why would I believe them? They are the ones that had Christ crusified.
GR> Christ was a Jew. Why believe him if you won't believe Jews?
Because he gave us the Word.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:43:20
EID:3a72 20612d60
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d610
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 31345919
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:22, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>> I wouldn't be so sure about that....
KD>> Frankly, I don't care. I don't want to be with your god anyway.
KD>> Spending eternity with someone who hates me isn't exactly a wonderful
KD>> thought.
KM>> Hated you so much he sent his own Son to die on cross so that you
KM>> could live.
GR> Raised on the third day isn't dead.
Dieing on a cross is DEAD.
KD>>> It's called fiction, Ken.
KM>>> That's your problem, you believe the Bible is fiction.
KD>> And it must be seen as such until it is demonstrated otherwise.
KM>> Luke 16:31
GR> Mark 16:15-18. Let us test to see if it is fiction fundie.
Matthew 4:7 and Luke 16:31
KM>>> whcih were in them: and they were judged every man according to thier
KM>>> works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is
KM>>> the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book
of
KM>>> life was cast into the lake of fire."
KD>> Fine. I'll tell him what an idiot he has been to my whole gender at
KD>> that point.
KD>>> Huh? He wants me to worship him and believe in him, and follow his
KD>>> laws, but isn't willing to take the trouble to demonstrate his
KD>>> EXISTENCE?
KM>>> He left us the scriptures, that's what you expected to believe.
GR> So when are you going to believe? Mark 16:15-18.
Matthew 4:7, Luke 16:31
KD>> Give up on the circular reasoning, Ken.
KM>>> Sin is not based on just he "big 10".
KD>> True, but I see no reason to focus on certain other ones.
KM>> Why not?
GR> Does your church allow handicapped people in to worship? That is a
sin.
We do not worship in church.
KM>>> Disobediance is sin, every drive over the speed limit?
KM>>> Christ said if you lust in your heart you've already committed the
KM>>> sin. Put all these aside, the scriptures teach us that all have
KM>>> sinned.
KD>> I drive over the speed limit because it is a greater wrong to drive
KD>> unsafely.
KD>> I have not lusted in my heart after a man other than my husband since
KD>> I was married. Live with it. I have no need of any other man.
KD>> Before marriage God has to accept the biological needs of his
KD>> creatures coming forth.
KM>> I didn't say lust after a man either did I?
GR> Jealousy isn't a sin? But if I pitch a tent over a fine lass in spandex
GR> I'm committing a sin? Hard-ons are the norm amoung mammals in nature.
KD>> I've only sinned if you get down to the nitty gritty little picky
KD>> stuff that is no more stressed than things you do every day.
KM>> But according to the Bible, you have sinned.
GR> According to the Bible, you aren't a believer. Mark 16:15-18.
Matthew 4:7, Luke 16:31
KD>>> Huh? Men being the head of the house isn't a higher status?
KM>>> Not to me.
KD>> Time for the faq here, I guess. Being head of something is higher
KD>> status automatically.
KM>> Your opinion not mine.
GR> And you are an asshole that doesn't know what "Head" means.
Oh, come on, if your gonna try and insult me, you can do better than that.
KD>>> Speak to my point. If this is a prison, why am I not justified in
KD>>> being angry at being kept here permanently?
KM>>> This is not a prison to start with......
KD>> Then why was it a punishment for Adam and Eve?
KM>> Earth was not a punishment for Adam and Eve.
GR> Did they tell you that personally?
Does it say the earth was punishment?
KD>>> Oh yes... you'd thank a jailor for the food.
KM>>> Why not? Does it kill you to be polite?
GR> Stupid question. Your god kills me one way or the other.
That's your fault, not his.
KD>> I see no need to thank him. I might if he acted with similar
KD>> politeness. At least I'd know he EXISTED. And what god seems to be
KD>> asking is more than mere politeness.
KM>> He ask for faith, and belief.
GR> Really? He doesn't talk to me, does he talk to you?
Yes.
GR> When are you going to show faith and belief? Mark 16:15-18.
When are you going to learn what faith and belief is? Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
GR> You make a big show of the words, and nothing more.
You make a big show of misinterpertation, nothing more.
KM> KM>>>> His Word is his evidence.
KD>>> Then give me evidence that it is his word.
KM>>> "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
KD>> Circular reasoning. I've heard it plenty of times. Was raised in a
KD>> churchgoing family and read the Bible many times. Was considered
KD>> rather devout as a young adolescent before I grew up and realized it
KD>> was all a sham.
KM>> Before you were decieved by the devil.
GR> The devil doesn't talk to me either. Did the devil talk to you and
tell
GR> you not to believe the words of Jesus, Mark 16:15-18?
Wouldn't matter if he did. Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
KM>>> Wasn't a matter of being convinced. Even Pilot could not find
KM>>> anything wrong with what Christ said or did. That is why he wrote
KM>>> what he did above Christ on the cross. They were threatened by
KM>>> Christ, he was telling everyone how things were suppose to be. They,
KM>>> like some here, tried to twist everything around to use it against
KM>>> him. However, they were wrong, and plotted against him.
KD>> Get the spelling right - Pilate. And since you can't get that right,
I
KD>> have no reason to credit your interpretation.
KM>> Oh, excuse me for a spelling error, guess I'm not perfect yet. BTW
you
KM>> don't have to believe me, all you have to do is read the accounts in
KM>> the Bible.
KD>>> Speak to the point.
KM>>> I did....
KD>> The earth was their jail. Their punishment for eating the fruit.
KM>> Your opinion.
KM>>> That's why he sent his Son to die for us. His Son having no sin in
KM>>> his own life, could pay for our sins in just 3 days. After that, he
KM>>> had to be released from death and hell, it could not hold him. Christ
KM>>> died so that we could live, fun god? Maybe not, but he fixed the sins
KM>>> of the world, all one has to do is to have faith in him..
KD>> He obviously didn't fix them.
KM>> Obviously he did, since anyone that accepts his Son as saviour gets
to
KM>> live forever.
GR> So belly up to bar, you are going to live forever. Mark 16:15-18.
Matthew 4:7, Luke 16:31
GR> Or don't you believe your own bullshit?
No, but I do believe the Bible, how about you?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:48:21
EID:3a72 20612e00
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d63c
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3134591a
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:24, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>>> He asks too much.
KM>>> To believe?
KD>> Yup. It is too much to ask this rational human being to believe in
KD>> something for which there is no evidence.
KM>> The evidence was given, you just don't believe it.
GR> Mark 16:15-18.
Matthew 4:7, Luke 16:31
GR> The evidence was given, you just don't have faith in the Bible.
The evidence is given, you just don't know what faith is.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:49:22
EID:d85d 20612e20
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d6c5
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3134591b
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:28, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>> No Fredrick, in the post that you love to quote me on, I never stated
KM>>> that I would murder my own son. I said that if God asked me to kill
KM>>> my son, I would consider it a sacrifice, but I never stated that I
KM>>> would make that sacrifice, did I? Huh? Excuse me? I can't hear you
KM>>> Fred, or perhaps to prove me wrong, you'de like to post the message
KM>>> where I said I WOULD murder or sacrifice my son?
KS>> Ah. You're not sure you would obey God. I see.
KM>> No Karl, if Fredrick put in the rest of the post that that quote came
KM>> from, you would see that I was saying that God would not request such
KM>> a thing.
GR> He requested it from Abraham and sacrificed his own son.
Abraham never believe that God would actually make him sacrifice his own
son.
GR> And one day YOUR God is going to kill your son.
Really, sorry to disappoint you, but my son is going to live forever.
KM>> Any such request would not come from God, but the Devil.
GR> So the part of the Bible where God asks Abraham to kill his son is
GR> actually the devil speaking?
Had Christ been given as the final sacrifice when God asked Abraham?
KM>> God
KM>> has given the final sacrifice, it is finished, no further sacrifice
is
KM>> required.
GR> But you believe Jesus is alive. Where is the sacrifice?
Was Christ killed on the cross?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: About Staal!
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:51:23
EID:56b6 20612e60
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d70b
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3134591c
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:33, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> FR>>> And you're a false Christian because you won't drink up.
KM>>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
KS>> He is tempting YOU, moron.
KM>> And if I drink, who would I be tempting?
GR> The scientific community, but you would be believing your god.
Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
KS>> But then, you've already admitted you may not obey God.
KM>> No, I have not admitted any such thing.
GR> Then either drink or admit that you are not a believer.
GR> Mark 16:15-18 is crystal clear. Believers will drink and will not die.
GR> So just tell us you don't believe Jesus, or drink and trust in your
faith.
GR> In short look foolish or assume ambient temperature. I hope you choose
to
GR> look foolish but I won't mind much if you die for your faith. Your
death
GR> will prevent other idiots from taking the same path.
Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Staal also has great Igno
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:53:24
EID:4d9d 20612ea0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d726
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3134591d
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:41, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> FR>>> You concocted your deity constructs to justify your actions and
KM> FR>>> the activities of your fellow death cultists.
KM>>> I didn't write the scriptures.....
KS>> Let alone read them....
KM>> Really Karl? Then where did my knowledge of God come from?
GR> Didn't it come from faith? Didn't it come from god?
GR> Or are you just depending on what people claim god said when you have
GR> never talked to god?
George,
I talk to God all the time.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it eith
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:53:25
EID:77bb 20612ea0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d746
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3134591e
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:42, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>> What mythologies? I don't read mythologies, that must be the problem,
KM>>> you've been reading the wrong book. You don't even know what a
KM>>> Christian is, how could you recognize a false one? Either drink up
or
KM>>> admit you're a fraud.
KM>>> Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.....
KS>> How could a perfect deity be tempted?
KM>> We can try to tempt him.
GR> Sorry! I am tempting him. If you drink and live, I'm the loser. Your
GR> god will have beaten me into submission.
Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:53:26
EID:63ef 20612ea0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d787
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 3134591f
Wednesday February 28 1996 06:52, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
EF>> Well I know it sounds logical, but it isn't. Why? Because by your
EF>> definition, no Christian ever did an un-Christ-like act. Ever!
KM>> We are not perfect, even I know that. But a Christian is one that is
KM>> trying to be more Christ like.
GR> Try Mark 16:15-18. Be just like Christ, dead.
Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
KM>> Not that we can be Christ, but we can
KM>> try to live and follow his examples.
GR> So follow Mark 16:15-18! Be dead like Christ. What the hell are you
GR> afraid of? You claim that you are going to live forever.
Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
KM>> See anywhere where he taught us
KM>> to try and wipe out the Jews?
EF>> Not because they are all so moral, but because the moment they did
EF>> something un-Christ-like they ceased being Christians.
KM>> The moment they walk away from what they believe in, when they stop
KM>> trying to spread the Word of God, they cease being Christians. Not
by
KM>> just merely commiting another sin.
GR> Mark 16:15-18. You walked away from the words of Christ because of
your
GR> lack of faith.
Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 01 Mar 96 05:54:27
EID:ab89 20612ec0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3136d7a0
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 31345920
Wednesday February 28 1996 07:01, George Rudzinski mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
SS>>>> Why should he? Real evidence points to a conclusion, regardless
SS>>>> of the attitudes or beliefs of those viewing the evidence.
KM>>> Conclusion? Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the
KM>>> book of live was cast into the lake of fire." How's that?
SS>> That's really stupid, to put it mildly. Where is your evidence of
SS>> a lake of fire?
KM>> The Bible.
GR> But you don't believe the Bible. Mark 16:15-18.
Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Baptism
|Date: 02 Mar 96 16:15:41
EID:8736 206281e0
MSGID: 1:123/67 313874f0
PID: GED3 2.5.b6 124LM3
29 Feb 96 14:12, quoting Brad Jackson to All:
BJ> Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ
BJ> have put on Christ.
Put him on?
BJ> I pray some will listen and come to know God!
Why? If not for your god's bungling, what would be the need for heaven,
hell, or saviours?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:25:00
EID:6937 20618320
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b96256f4
Wiccan Blessing Over Cakes and Wine
All life is your own
All the fruits of the Earth
Are fruits of your womb,
Fruits of your dance,
Your union with eternity.
Lady, we thank you for sweet,
rich life.
Join with us in our circle.
Feast with us.
Enjoy with us.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * "Quick, Jesus -- to the Godcave!" - Hector Plasmic
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Pantheacon Stuff 1/4
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:25:00
EID:afdb 20618320
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org dbd4503d
NS> I just got back from San Jose, California's, 2nd annual Pantheacon,
NS>repository for the pagan, the weird, the failed trekkies, the outcasts,
NS>and the decidedly religiously odd. It was fun, even just as a spectator
NS>sport. I brought back something you might find amusing, in a
NS>pagan-religious sense, from a wonderful little magazine that was
NS>anonymously put together and distributed (because it rocks the
NS>acceptable self-image of paganism?) called The Magical Flame. It has
NS>no credits, no contact info, and no copyright. Enjoy!
ROTFLMAOSTC! I know these people! Hell, I am these people (just which
witch depends on the phase of the moon, and what I had for dinner).
Thank you, Norbert.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...I am, therefore I think, I think....
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Vote for Rapture.
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:25:00
EID:2c07 20618320
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1029ff1a
NS> I was discussing the 4004 BCE date with someone over the weekend
NS> and it suddenly dawned on both of us that it would place the
NS> millenium squarely in September/October this year, depending. So I
NS> make a motion that we encourage as many Fundamentalists/Xtians to
NS> Rapture (it _is_ a verb, like rupture, isn't it? };)...) ASAP so
NS> that we can get the place cleaned up and have a decent holiday
NS> season . . .
NS> Whee-eeew, 1,000 years of quiet peaceful contemplation ahead . . .
I wonder, do you think we could have them out of the way, and everything
organized in time for Samhain?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...It's 10:00pm-Do you even know WHAT your children are?
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Re: Tithe
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:25:00
EID:4cd4 20618320
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5c021cda
EF>In a message dated 02-17-96 Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Richard
EF>Morrison:
EF>KW> Find out how much your preachers robes and
EF>KW> suit cost, what the price of the choir stalls
EF>KW> was, the printers bill for the programs...
EF>KW>
EF>KW> Then find out how many hungry children that
EF>KW> exercise in pride would have fed. If you
EF>KW> belong to one of the really fancy
EF>KW> denominations, this will horrify you. Do you
EF>KW> have any idea how much a silver chalice to
EF>KW> serve up your god's blood costs?
EF>What are you saying here? That people have a right to decide what another
EF>groups priorities are? I take on these guys because they think they
have
EF>the right to dictate to me what my behavior ought to be, based on their
EF>dogma. This makes them fair game. But it is a two way street. If they
are
EF>willing to live and let live then I will defend their right to do just
EF>that.
Elliott, if you had taken the time and trouble to have read (and quoted)
that passage in context it would have been obvious even to you that the
subject under discussion was charities (such as those pushed by TV
evangelists) that were designed mostly to line the pockets of the
charity. I'll re quote the original post, and this time you can read the
whole thing. Of course, that will remove your excuse for a self
righteous snit fit.
*************************************************************************
RM>Which Preacher's Katherine? yes, certainly the TV preachers,,, they
beg for
RM>lots of money but from my observation, very few preachers make a lot
of
RM>money. Usually it's the ones that are on TV who are bilking people for
their
RM>money. I know there are others but sooner or later they make it to TV...<
RM>I think it's the TV that's Evil.... *grin*.
So if you got rid of TV you would get rid of the evil? I don't think
so, Richard. The church (under whatever name) has been enriching itself
all along. Take a look at the cathedrals of Europe. At the local
churches rearing their beautiful rooflines proud against the sky. Then
look at the homeless and mentally ill huddled under the overpasses (did
you know that once bishops had a terrible time with the unsightly poor
sheltering between the buttresses of cathedrals?). That's not TV,
Richard, that's real life. Find out how much your preachers robes and
suit cost, what the price of the choir stalls was, the printers bill for
the programs...
Then find out how many hungry children that exercise in pride would
have fed. If you belong to one of the really fancy denominations, this
will horrify you. Do you have any idea how much a silver chalice to
serve up your god's blood costs?
RM>btw: I know of some preachers who were independently wealthy before
becoming
RM>a preacher... I think that's kind of neat in it's own right.
Richard, I don't contest that there are a few good men there. But the
plate passing for man's pride just doesn't sit well with me.
*********************************************************
Saying that their priorities are one thing, then acting in a totally
different manner makes them fair game in my book. Selectivity editing
my post to give yourself a target makes you fair game in my book, also.
This tends to make your live and let live stance look a bit, shall we
say, hypocritical.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Let go of your genatalia and grab a dictionary.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: An interesting situation
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:25:00
EID:109a 20618320
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 07f5d08b
JH> JH>> You can use IPA if you want to, I'm partial to sodium
JH> JH>> hydroxide.
JH> KW> You are missing the insult value.
JH> I don't care about the insult value. I want to eat the flesh off of
JH> the front of his skull. Lye doesn't fuck around.
Esp. when it drips on your own hands. I want something that will hurt
him, but not damage me in the process.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Mary used a turkey baster.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
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PATH: 381/123 900 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: A VISIT 4/4
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:25:00
EID:5130 20618320
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 9620cd5c
JH> KW> Bound slave girl salt and pepper shakers, I'd guess.
JH> JH>
JH> JH> That WOULD sell!
JH> KW> We'll display them on the shelf right next to that light up
JH> KW> plastic jesus.
JH> And the Elvis vibrators that play "Love me tender".
And maybe a volume of the 'naughty' parts of the bible.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Oh, no! The creationists are mutating!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 381/123 900 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Satanista, no! Pindeho, s
|Date: 01 Mar 96 16:25:00
EID:7a63 20618320
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e3a5c5c4
JH> KW> Maybe you didn't recognize it because off the top of my head, I
JH> KW> mangled the spelling. It's Valiente, Doreen Valiente. She
JH> KW> admits that she is the author of the wording of a good deal of
JH> KW> Gardnerian ritual, but claims that the basic framework was
JH> KW> already in place and very old when she was initiated by
JH> KW> Gardener.
JH> Name is vaugely familiar...
JH> I'm going to have to make a trip into the Closet of Boxed
JH> Up Paperbacks.
JH> I may be gone for a few days.
Should we tie a rope around you, or just send in CARE packages
periodically?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * ...Piss everone off! Nuke the Gay Baby Whales for Jesus!
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 7Gig, 6 Nodes (1:381/123)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 381/123 900 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Alan Hess
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Doctrine
|Date: 01 Mar 96 15:27:39
EID:cba0 20617b60
Whilst masticating on , Brad Jackson (1:244/108)
wrote to All:
BJ> (Luke 24:46 KJV) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it
BJ> behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And the baby bear said, "my porridge is just right."
BJ> (Luke 24:47 KJV) And that repentance and remission of sins should be
BJ> preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And he huffed, and he puffed, and he blew the house down.
BJ> (Luke 24:48 KJV) And ye are witnesses of these things.
"Why, Grandma, what big teeth you have!"
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 01 Mar 96 23:47:00
EID:10ce aa053390
MSGID: 1:206/2720 1e978c8d
REPLY: 0471AE54
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> "'Wir sind gewohnt dass die Menschen verhohnen was
> sie nicht verstehen.'
> Goethe is always pithy," as a better man than I said.
> (For those not
> versed in German, that means, 'We are used to see
> that Man despises what
> he never comprehends' found in Faust part 1 where
> Faust addresses the
> Poodle in the Studyroom. It might make a good motto
> for this echo. )
I fear the only Goethe I've read is _The Sorrows of Young Werther_, which
led me to intensely despise the pathetic worm of a man that Goethe described.
All due credit to Goethe for painting a portrait able to evoke such emotions,
of course; I suspect that my reaction might not have displeased him. At
least part of the reason Werther is so disturbing, of course, is that I've
made similar mistakes in my love life, though I've always gotten a grip
on myself considerably before reaching the point Werther finally arrived
at. It's amazing the illusions one can develop about a person who happens
to be physically attractive at the right time. To push things a little more
on topic, this is surely an example of how irrational virtually everyone
is capable of being. No wonder so many are capable of falling into religions.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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PATH: 206/2720 2711 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 01 Mar 96 11:49:34
EID:ad02 20615e20
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 630e541b
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d45e3fb5
KW> Someday, I hope to achieve the status of 'Grand Bitch'.
That's Grand Exalted Bitch.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 01 Mar 96 11:54:18
EID:a6b4 20615ec0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 630e63e7
CHUPACABRAS STILL ACTIVE; UFOS SIGHTED IN PUERTO RICO
[CNI News thanks journalist Scott Corrales, editor of the journal SAMIZDAT,
for sending this update on the mysterious Chupacabras ("Goat Sucker") of
Puerto Rico. With strange attacks and animal deaths occurring in alarming
numbers, many citizens are calling for strong official action.]
A professor from the University of Puerto Rico at Mayaguez, Dr. Juan A.
Rivero, has become part of the scientific task force which is currently
investigating the puzzling deaths of animals throughout the island, deaths
attributed to the creature known as the Chupacabras.
Dr. Rivero expressed his support for the theory that the animal deaths have
been caused by Rhesus monkeys which were brought to Puerto Rico's offshore
islands for research purposes. A Harvard graduate and director of the Puerto
Rican Zoological Society, Rivero suspects that most of the strange animal
deaths which took place during 1995 were caused by the Rhesus, which has
been known to kill for the sport of it.
Meanwhile, the police seem unable to protect even their own. Police colonel
Agustin Cartagena, who owns a farm near Caguas, P.R., received a visit from
the Chupacabras on January 12. The intruder killed 22 animals -- an assortment
of ducks, chickens, and guinea hens. This incident apparently took place
just days after six sheep were killed on the property of police lieutenant
Jorge Rivera, whose farm is located in Canovanas
On January 18, the Chupacabras turned its thirst for blood against five
ducks, slaying four and leaving one mortally injured. However,
it found its match in the fierce flock of geese kept by Mrs. Luz Bonilla
in her Guaynabo backyard. According to Mrs. Bonilla, the geese made a racket
in the wee hours of the morning. Upon venturing to her backyard to see what
had happened, she was faced with the sight of the dead ducks. Mrs. Bonilla
added her voice to a growing number of citizens demanding a serious investigation
by the Commonwealth government into this matter.
On the other side of the island, reports came in from a number of sources
reporting a flurry of UFO activity. Police officials
confirmed receiving distressed phone calls regarding this unusual activity.
The sightings allegedly took place over the Costas, Sabana Yeguas and Candelaria
sectors of Lajas. The objects were described as triangular in shape and
moving at prodigious speed across the night skies from south to west. Curiously,
the UFO reports coincided with the arrival of several squadrons of jet fighters
from USAF. Local residents were awakened to a deafening sound, only to find
the fighters making low-level runs over their homes. The police could not
speculate as to why the Air Force had chosen to embark on
practice runs in the area.
On January 23, a pet rabbit belonging to Mr. Julio Lopez's young daughter
was found torn to bloody shreds in its cage, which showed signs of violent
destruction. Some kind of dark excrement, different from that of cows, horses,
dogs or apes, was found on the site. Mr. Lopez was quoted by San Juan's
El Vocero newspaper as saying: "The shape in which the cage was left was
incredible, being built out of metal tubing and linked wire... they took
out the rabbit, killed it, and tore out its heart and other entrails."
Lopez added later: "This is the work of a supernatural agency; neither a
dog nor an ape nor a snake could have done such a thing." Ironically, Mr.
Lopez works as a butcher for a Caguas butcher shop.
On January 25, Julio Victor Ramirez, staff writer for El Vocero, described
the strange disappearance of a Siberian Husky and the death of a number
of animals belonging to Antonia Rodriguez Garcia, a Mayaguez housewife who
notified local authorities about the incident.
According to the report filed by police officer Carlos Rivera, the victim
reported the loss of a pair of rabbits and one of her dogs. One of the rabbits
had curious incisions on its neck, while the other showed signs of ripped
flesh. The animals gave the appearance of having been drained of blood.
The mutilations appear to have taken place at 3:00 a.m., and the police
report indicates having discovered chunks of raw meat mixed with fur
from Mrs. Rodriguez's missing dog.
The dog engaged in a fierce encounter with the intruder, which tore off
a clump of the Husky's fur during the fray. The report did not speculate
if the rabbits had been killed by the Chupacabras or by a more mundane creature.
On February 3, a turkey belonging to Herminio Garcia, a beekeeper from the
Mayaguez area, had the dubious distinction of being the first animal of
its kind to be slain by the Chupacabras. The gobbler was found dead with
claw marks on its neck.
The interagency task force led by Wisbel Ayala, entrusted with the task
of analyzing the spate of mysterious deaths around the island, took the
dead animal away for autopsy purposes. Ayala expressed the belief that although
there were no witnesses, a monkey attacked the turkey. The owner did not
have time to see the assailant, since by his own admission, as soon as he
heard the sounds made by the attacker, he ran to grab a shotgun in hopes
of defending his animal, but arrived too late.
Of a total of nine confirmed cases in western P.R., four have been submitted
to forensic analysis with inconclusive results. The cases remain officially
open.
On February 8, the Chupacabras returned to the Quebrada Negra sector of
Canovanas, killing at least two sheep and mutilating an
unspecified number of other animals. The incidents occurred around 3:00
p.m. in a farm owned by Mr. Elias Reyes, who told authorities that his dead
livestock had puncture marks on their necks and bellies, as well as torn
flesh in their hindquarters, through which inner organs were apparently
extracted. Mr. Reyes refused to believe that apes or wild dogs could have
committed such a horrifying act, and called upon Governor Pedro Roselli
to show some leadership concerning this distressing situation.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 01 Mar 96 11:59:07
EID:a6b4 20615f60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 630e6ad4
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 630e63e7
JH> CHUPACABRAS STILL ACTIVE; UFOS SIGHTED IN PUERTO RICO
[...]
JH> On January 23, a pet rabbit belonging to Mr. Julio Lopez's
JH> young daughter was found torn to bloody shreds in its cage,
JH> which showed signs of violent destruction. Some kind of
JH> dark excrement, different from that of cows, horses, dogs
JH> or apes, was found on the site.
This is some strange shit, Kimosabe.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
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SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Brian Shreve
|Sub: Get Saved!
|Date: 01 Mar 96 12:03:24
EID:9cc4 20616060
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 630e72d3
REPLY: 1:106/113.0 31302f28
BS> Ask a serious question, make a serious statement, what do I
BS> get in return?
You get HolySmoked.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: wrong board
|Date: 01 Mar 96 12:05:32
EID:2b55 206160a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 630e77df
AH> Pat Buchanan is a ZOG stooge whose sole assignment is to
AH> ensure Bill Clinton's re-election. So far, he's
AH> succeeding.
Lovely, aint it?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 01 Mar 96 12:25:46
EID:2b58 20616320
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 630ec063
RJ>> And even psychopaths tend to have cryptoreligious reasons
RJ>> for doing it.
NS> You mean like the King of Mexico (before the Conquistodors)
NS> who used to eat boiled small boy? I understood it was a
NS> sacre dish that only the King could eat.
Hmmm... I'd be inclined to suspect that claim was nothing more
than propaganda from the European invaders.
They Aztecs DID practice wholesale canibalism, but the meat usually
went to those who actually needed the extra protien: pregnant and
lactating women and small children. Adult males had to make do with
a diet of fish, corn and algea. (That'll be two fish tacos with
algea salsa to go, please!)
Central Mexico had no large herbivores. The Aztecs had to get
protien from somewhere. They opted to take it from their neighbors.
Your "sacred dish" may have actually happened, but it would have
been a very minor sideline of a massive food distribution system.
The Aztecs were extremely practical about their canibalism, they
had a growing empire to sustain.
Of course, it gave them a rather grotesque facination with death.
An obsession that persists in the contemporary popular culture of
Mexico. Mexicans are the most morbid people on earth.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Angels...
|Date: 01 Mar 96 17:56:05
EID:d109 20618f00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6311b1d7
DK>> OKAY, PEOPLE, I GET THE POINT ALREADY, SO YOU CAN STOP
DK>> FILLING MY MAILBOX WITH THE SNIDE COMMENTS. I WILL NOW BOW
DK>> OUT, NEVER TO BOTHER YOU AGAIN.
NS> Okay, who broke the fundy? Do you guys think fun like this
NS> grows on trees? Geez. Now I have to go back to lurking in
NS> wait . . .
Relax... we're overdue for the next Mormon to pass through.
Should be here any day now.
They're always a lot of fun.
Some of them have even lasted for two or three weeks.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Monty Arch
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angels
|Date: 29 Feb 96 21:42:37
EID:e30f 205dad40
MSGID: 1:236/64 1f02742c
TID: GE 1.11+
=> Quoting Dawn Kleuser to All <=-
DK> Hello, Everyone! I beleive very strongly in Angels, and would like
DK> to hear any stories anyone has about them. No doubt there is a whole
DK> slew of skeptics out there who would love to attack me on this subject,
DK> but I'm not lookin' for a fight. Just wanna swap Angel experiences.
DK> Please respond if you'd like to share, and I will also. Anyone having
a
DK> question for me on the subject, please ask away - but keep in mind that
DK> I will not be drawn into an argument over the existence of Angels.
Dawn,
I have a guardian angel that pulled me back from oncoming traffic, which
I was
stepping out from between parked cars.
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: T.P.R. Systems (219)744-0558 or (219)744-0455 (1:236/64)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 236/64 7 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Quote mythology
|Date: 29 Feb 96 16:18:14
EID:ccd5 205d8240
MSGID: 1:207/212 f16dc1fb
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1c0ef2f6
On (25 Feb 96) Fredric Rice wrote to Karen Davis...
FR> Neat! Quote mythology and demand how it was done if it isn't true!
That's why my reply.
FR> Help! Help! I'm being suppressed!
[Repressed] Hehehe
... "We could take in an old Steve Reeves movie." -- Frank
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Shinehead O'Connor
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:18:27
EID:ddae 20619a40
MSGID: 1:207/212 4b1a2850
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1353e2c7
On (27 Feb 96) John Prewett wrote to Karen Davis...
JP> Your above is an amazing admission. Some kind-hearted heathen
JP> should take you aside and help you understand that there is
JP> tremendous difference in reading any document
JP> [the US constitution, for instance] for yourself
JP> vice
JP> "following someone's interpretation of that" document.
JP> It's the difference between thinking for oneself, vice
JP> trusting some other person to do your thinking for you.
Yet it is also wrong to put trust in some mythological document as the
word of some deity.
JP> Those labeled "heretic" also professed Christ.
No, those labeled heretic were nonbelievers and non Christians.
JP> So both the victims of the Inquisitions
JP> and the conductors of the Inquisitions
JP> claimed to be "Christians."
Nope. The Inquisitions killed non Christians primarily.
JP> You [and most people] are basically just saying that the group
JP> that conducted the mass-murder were "the Christians of the time."
Yup. The truth.
JP> Yet, the victims [those labeled "heretic"] clearly followed
JP> the example of Christ. They were the real Christians.
You ignore the vast majority of the victims who were Jewish, Muslim, or
intelligent non believers in any cult.
... If you can't stand the heat, get out of the oven.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:21:06
EID:b8f6 20619aa0
MSGID: 1:207/212 5e69cad6
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1353e2c8
On (27 Feb 96) John Prewett wrote to Karen Davis...
JP> The NT presented Christ has done more to elevate
JP> the status of women than any other figure in world history.
Prove it. It has not. It has done more to keep them down and slaves to
their man than anything else.
JP> The status of women in Protestant/Bible influenced portions
JP> of the world, and in Israel,
JP> is much higher than in the portions of the world controlled
JP> by Atheist/communism, Roman Catholic, Moslem, Hindu, Animist,
JP> or Buddhist belief systems.
Nope. This is a CHristian lie. One of many.
... I hit my CTRL key, but I'm still not in control.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:22:12
EID:ca82 20619ac0
MSGID: 1:207/212 dde97ed5
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1353e2c9
On (27 Feb 96) John Prewett wrote to Karen Davis...
JP> You're presently as brainwashed/indoctrinated by humanist/atheist
JP> professors, as any religious person could be
JP> brainwashed/indoctrinated
JP> by some priest or witchdoctor.
Funny.... most of my professors were Christian, when I took the trouble
to ask.
... A mind is a terrible thing to... OOOOH! Mail packets!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: children
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:22:53
EID:5cbc 20619ac0
MSGID: 1:207/212 13f7940f
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1353e2ca
On (27 Feb 96) John Prewett wrote to Dan Ceppa...
JP> I'd definitely want God's help over the help of a doctor.
JP> Not even a close choice.
Then why do those who pray for their lives to be saved die, while those
who go to doctors live?
... Whenever anyone promises heaven on Earth, expect hell.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM [1]
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:23:30
EID:8712 20619ae0
MSGID: 1:207/212 b0d3cb75
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1353e2cf
On (28 Feb 96) John Prewett wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> I hold them to the standards they officially accept on themselves.
JP> Right. None .
Nope. If they state they oppose something, I hold them to that in their
own actions. You're more than welcome to hold me accountable for my
statements against child abuse, and hold me to the fire if I ever lift
my hand to a child, as an example. I have openly stated my views on
that.
JP> EVERYONE doesn't develope a "moral code"
JP> any more advanced than "what's in it for me."
You are correct that not everyone takes a mature moral code. But
CHristianity doesn't seem to help people develop mature moral codes,
either.
KD> Some swallow the Bible hook line and sinker.
JP> Too few.
Too many.
JP> People who see no difference between studying something
JP> for oneself, vice depending on another human to interpret,
JP> aren't likely to dazzle anyone with "mature reasoning."
In the end, you're relying on other people's interpretations, too.
JP> You are greatly deceived and superficial about this
JP> "more Christians in jail" mantra you chant,
JP> and what you imagine it proves.
And you seem to think you can get out of this by claiming that anyone
who has done anything wrong must not be Christian. Personally, I don't
care if YOU consider them Christian. If they consider themselves
Christian, they must believe their moral code comes from the Bible or
Christ. If they then go commit horrible acts, that moral code must not
be worth anything. Fact: people who consider themselves Christian go on
to commit far more heinous acts than anyone who is atheist, and millions
more than those who consider themselves Pagan/Wiccan.
If I create a set of rules for my classroom, and a system of enforcement
of that, and the behavior in the classroom was either very poor or
fantastic, you'd make the appropriate judgement regarding the validity
of that set of rules, right? Thus the self created ethics of the
atheist/agnostic, or the code of the Pagan must be superior to the Bible
in the same way that Room 3's behavior shows that Mrs. Graf's behavior
system is superior to room 4's.
JP> For a variety of reasons, a significant percent of inmates may
JP> mark "Christian" on the questionaire they fill out upon arrival.
JP> Rightly or wrongly, many inmates figure out that a probation or
JP> parole board will look a bit more favorably on one avowing
JP> Christianity, than upon avowing to be a [for instance] "pagan."
Another example of special rights for CHristians.
JP> In Christ there is REASON to be "good."
Where?
JP> Non-believers don't have a binding reason to be "good.'
Yes, they do. The well being of their fellow man and themselves. If I
drive safely, the road is that much safer for everyone. My example
causes other people, including any children in my care, to drive more
safely.
On the other hand, look at Christianity. It states that the rewards are
after you die.
JP> Rapist are practicing a logical "moral code" of a non-believer,
JP> which is "if it feels good, do it."
No, they are practicing the moral code of the asocial.
JP> So you should see that your use of the label "CHRISTian"
JP> is meaningless.
nope. WHen people claim to be Christian, they must at some level accept
the guidance of your myth. If they then commit a crime, I hold both them
and your Christ responsible.
JP> Merely proving the meaninglessness of labeling someone "Christian"
JP> just because a person "claims" to be a Christian.
Proving the clear evidence that it is valid. And that Christianity as a
moral code is invalid.
JP> However, some/many who call Christ Lord, do not necessarily
JP> follow Christ "in spirit and truth."
Oh? Priests don't?
JP> In effect, you are condemning Christ due to the fact
JP> that many/some of those who claim to be "Christians"
JP> fail to measure up to His perfect standard.
Not one of them do.
JP> You totally fail to acknowledge how much human progess
JP> over the centuries is directly due to the example of Christ.
Not one iota. You'll now try to claim our system of government is due to
Christ. It isn't. It is due to people getting fed up with religious
INtolerance as well as authoritarianism. The Bible not once teaches
democracy. It teaches authoritarianism and communism.
JP> "Christian" is just a label. The claims about Christ do not
JP> depend on everyone that you label "Christian" being perfect.
But they do depend on the validity of the guidance of his so called
moral system.
JP> And a lot of those children will grow to think that you are just
JP> blowing smoke. Whose going to make it "come back to hurt them"
?
Real life. The evidence occurs daily.
Money is stolen from a desk - guess what the kids' first act is? To
check that their own things are safe.
KD> I want a comfortable life on earth, and that starts with me.
JP> And many kids hear your spiel and see how empty it is.
The empty spiel is that about Jesus and how he supposedly came down to
save us. It's been 2000 years. I don't feel saved.
JP> If they do what you describe, then obviously
JP> they have not accepted the moral guidance of Christ.
JP> As any but a raw, superficial fool can see.
But they did accept that moral guidance. It just didn't work. A set of
rules that don't work are far superior to an individual set of rules
that DO work that you just happen to disagree with.
... I'm grinning from <'ere to 'ere>
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105 355/2
SEEN-BY: 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253
SEEN-BY: 760/600 2002/2002 2240/125 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM [2]
|Date: 01 Mar 96 19:40:30
EID:8712 20619d00
MSGID: 1:207/212 03b81b96
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1353e2cf
On (28 Feb 96) John Prewett wrote to Karen Davis...
JP> Then you turn around and contend that when it comes to deeming a
JP> person a "Christian," one should not employ ANY "objective
JP> criterion."
There's no exam for Christian. No degree. [Of course those who get
degrees in the subject are more likely to abuse little boys]
JP> Behavior is A significant criterion one should use if one cares
JP> to attempt to apply the label "Christian" in a meaningful way.
But you would then claim that people are forgiven their sins if they
only submit to Jesus. Which is it?
JP> If however, at a later date, I see PLAIN REASON to doubt
JP> he is in fact guided by Christ, then I am not obligated
JP> to refer to him as a "Christian."
Then not ONE Christian is guided by Christ.
JP> Demonstrating that as commonly used, the label "Christian"
JP> is meaningless, or nearly meaningless.
Demonstrating that the guidance of Christ is meaningless. If children
subjected to 12 years of guidance on Christian values and virtues can't
keep from doing things any more often than those who attend public
schools, then the value system is meaningless and worthless.
JP> I believe you Karen. But I believe you are failing to recognize
JP> how significant change in various circumstances would affect your
JP> willingness and ability to remain such a "good" person.
I admit that certain things are not absolute. Yes, I would take an apple
from someone's tree [provided it was clear they had plenty, and yes, I
would ask or attempt to ask permission first] if I were starving. You
might make the same choice. I might drive unsafely fast if it were
necessary to save myself or someone else from a greater harm.
JP> So, you are so good, that God doesn't exist.
JP> And if bychance God does exist, you're so good you don't need God.
JP> And since you, without God's guidance, are so good,
JP> then no one needs God's guidance.
Since those who accept god's guidance fail more often than I, my self
accepted moral code is more valid for me than Christianity for them,
yes.
JP> Karen, you're just someone who hasn't yet received the right
JP> temptation.
Can't we say that of everyone? I submit that my moral code will bind me
and keep me quite happy and provide me the proper guidance for my whole
life.
JP> You are in total denial of the fact that the influence of Christ
JP> upon untold millions of people has been to give them a reason
JP> to do and be "good."
I don't see it. They lie and kill in His name.
JP> You're just willfully ignorant about the actual influence
JP> of Christ on people and nations.
No, I suspect you are. Consider that this country was founded on GREEK
principles yet the Christians keep lying and claiming the Constitution
is a Christian document when there is not one iota of Christianity in
there.
KD> And murdering or stealing isn't a test. A Christian murdering or
KD> stealing is like a high school student not knowing what a book is.
JP> Elaborate please.
A test in school is a test of the recent teaching. Thou shalt not kill
is far more major than a student failing a test on the past 2 weeks in
geometry.
JP> [fact is, God, in the person of His Son,
JP> has "come down" and "introduced himself" to humanity]
Not to me.
JP> Giving the world it's supreme standard of "good."
Since Christians haven't shown that, that's an untrue statement.
... In case of atomic attack, prayer in schools will be OK.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: O.J. Simpson
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Cult Christianity
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:36:00
EID:6db6 2061ac80
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302c6
MSGID: 1:363/309 56d60b50
PID: RA 2.02 8069
> SA> Gracious welcome, Megan! It's not often that we have participants
> SA> joining us from Japan.
> About as rare as a black poster on Holysmoke, eh?
fuck off whitey...
---
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Question
|Date: 01 Mar 96 06:56:00
EID:b5d5 20613700
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8933438D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Michael Hardy <=-
GR> If there are no black people posting here, something is wrong.
MH> Is there? Unless someone is preventing black people from posting
MH> here, it seems it's purely a matter of whether any choose to.
GR> Ever surf the Net without a computer?
GR> No one
MH> is keeping them out, nor is anyone forcing them in. That is true of
MH> all of us.
GR> I'm not saying they are not being allowed to post. I'm questioning
GR> how many even know about Fido in the first place. I'm questioning how
GR> many even have access to a computer to allow them to post.
GR> It may not be a matter of choice but of access.
That's true. And a good point. Hadn't thought of that.
However, there are plenty of white people who also lack computer
access. Seems it's more of a function of income than of race. But it is
a legitimate question to explore.
... The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: firmament
|Date: 01 Mar 96 06:57:00
EID:87d7 20613720
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8933438E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Michael Hardy <=-
JH> 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
JH> 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness
JH> [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved
JH> upon the face of the waters.
JH> Lookie there... we got an Earth already existing in verse 2.
MH> Yup. Because the creation of the universe wasn't important for the
MH> author's purposes except to note that it happened.
GR> Mikey,
GR> You mean your omniscient god didn't know that it would one day pose
a
GR> problem?
GR> Or do you mean that your god wants us to be stupid and not explore the
GR> universe?
Actually, I think God wanted us to be smart enough to take literature
as literature and science as science. To glean spiritual truths from
spiritual writings and not try to force them to be scientific essays as
well.
Young-Earth creationists make this error. So do atheists such as you
who don't understand the difference and think all Jews and Christians
must be young-Earth creationists.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: God's Word
|Date: 01 Mar 96 07:00:00
EID:8b0f 20613800
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8933438F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> And you still present no evidence for your claim -- your ignorant,
MH> incorrect claim -- that the KJV includes intentional errors.
GR> Why would a book that you claim to be inspired by god have any errors?
I'm not the one claiming it does.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 01 Mar 96 07:00:00
EID:a48a 20613800
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334390
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> The fact is, I have studied the arguments used by people on both
MH> sides of the question. Those who accept the traditional view of Jesus
MH> have actual reasons for doing so.
GR> An an actual fear of doing so. Mark 16:15-18.
GR> Feel free asshole. Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour. Practice your
GR> religion.
GR> Be conservative. Believe Mark 16:15-18. Or do you get liberal when
GR> it is your ass on the line?
By now you have received my response to this. You bore me. If you can't
come up with anything better, I'll add you to my twit filter. I've been
in this echo long enough to have no patience for one-note singers.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 01 Mar 96 07:02:00
EID:eb69 20613840
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334391
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Are you unaware of the Jerusalem Church, which grew up -- as the
MH>name implies -- in Jerusalem, the same city where Jesus was
MH>crucified? And well before Paul's conversion, too.
BK> Did well, did it? Still seems like there are an awful lot of Jewish
BK> people in the world. Why would they be so stupid as to disbelieve
BK> their own god?
MH> Because they stubbornly insisted they knew God; that they were more
MH> interested in winning an argument than in the truth is shown in that
MH> they didn't recognize him when he walked among them.
GR> And I'm supposed to recognize him based on the words of morons like
GR> you?
No. You'll only recognize him if you get over your stupid hostility and
decide that you want to know the truth. No one can say anything that
will change your mind until and unless that happens.
... The world is a beautiful book, for those who can read it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Rice's pisces
|Date: 01 Mar 96 07:04:00
EID:6453 20613880
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334392
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Michael Hardy <=-
-
MS> .....the only reason we might sound the same is because we're
MS> brothers just like Dave and Fred rice sound the same(are they the
MS> same?) but we are 2 totally different people...
MH> No, they aren't the same. David is marginally smarter. I guess he
MH> finished high school or something.
MS> ......Oooo, OUCH! But nevertheless, I hope alot more people
MS> realize I'm not Jim and let me go back to the way things were when I
MS> first started in Smoke......Well, maybe even better than that. Maybe
MS> on more of a human, down to earth, civilized manner.
"Well I totally believe you, dude!" (From "Bill & Ted's Bogus
Journey.")
But I do know you and Jim are not the same.
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: flood
|Date: 01 Mar 96 07:05:00
EID:31c7 206138a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334393
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I've made this point about a thousand times, and no one ever
MH> seems to grasp it. Once more:
SA> OK, let's see it.
MH> The resurrection of Jesus was an EVENT!! It was not a claim, such as
MH> the claims made by Koresh or Jim Jones.
SA> How many people witnessed the actual rising of Christ, Michael?
SA> There is NO ONE in the bible that was actually there to witness as
SA> life was given back to him, or when he used divine power to roll back
SA> the stone. All the testimony is based on people seeing him on the
SA> cross, seeing the empty grave a few days later, then seeing him later
SA> walking and talking .
And putting two and two together to reach the obvious conclusion.
SA> There are many possible ways that this could
SA> have been pulled off by illusion Michael, as I am sure many people have
SA> pointed out to you in the past.
And absolutely no evidence that anyone had (a) motive or (b)
opportunity to pull off such an illusion.
In fact, Sue, there are NOT "many possible ways" that this could have
been pulled off by illusion. I doubt you could come up with even one
that doesn't fail under analysis.
Jesus had real enemies in both the Jews and the Romans. His death would
have been witnessed by experienced executioners, who should have known
if he were somehow faking. Even if he wasn't dead, he would have been
horribly mutiliated after the crucifixion, hardly in any shape to make
people think he had risen in glory.
There's no reason to suppose that either the Romans or the Jews -- let
alone both -- would have cooperated to aid Jesus in such a deception,
nor is there any reason to suppose that Jesus would have wanted to
trick his best friends into believing such a thing.
All available evidence indicates that the disciples didn't understand
or believe that Jesus would return from the dead until after the fact.
How likely is it that seeing him mutilated, weak from loss of blood and
days without food or water, would convince them that he had died and
returned, as opposed to barely survived the crucifixion?
MH> There is no reason to think that all eleven remaining disciples, Mar
MH> Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus, James his brother and various
MH> other people all had the same illusion. That's grasping at straws to
MH> avoid the obvious.
SA> Why is it unreasonable to think that all these individuals could
SA> not have had the same illusion if someone set out to MAKE them have
the
SA> same illusion? This is how stage magicians earn their fame and
SA> fortune. I think you are avoiding looking at potential stumbling
SA> stones in your belief of the resurrection.
Then you provide a motive and explain how all of the various factors I
outlined above would have been addressed.
MH> Unless you're making the claim that Jesus was an illusionist, in
MH> which case you have to explain why he would do such a thing, where he
MH> disappeared to after the "resurrection" and how he managed to
MH> convincingly fake both his death and his return when Romans were
MH> driving nails into his wrists and sticking spears in his side.
SA> As has been pointed out in the past, he was on the cross a
SA> remarkably short time before he "died". Nails in the wrists and
SA> spears in the side could have done major damage, but not necessarily
SA> fatal if he had help afterward (as would have been planned if this was
SA> supposed to be an illusion). I do not think he could have convincingly
SA> done all of this on his own without help.
SA> As to motive, the glory of being identified as the savior of the
SA> bible by even a handful of believers would be one motive.
That makes him a deluded schemer, which is out of character with
everything else the available accounts say about him. Plus, he was
already identified as messiah by a handful of believers. The death came
as a shock to his followers. There's no reason for it under this
scenario. He could have basked in adulation for years, had he chosen,
and altered his message to avoid offending the authorities. Plenty of
false messiahs have done just that.
SA> Another
SA> would be delusions of grandeur, whereby he really thought that he was
SA> the son of God even though he wasn't.
If he really thought he was the son of God, he wouldn't have set up an
elaborate scheme to FAKE his death and return, now would he? He
wouldn't have thought any fakery would be needed.
SA> A third motive would be that he
SA> saw that changes were necessary in society (in his opinion) and that
he
SA> felt that fulfilling the prophesy of a coming savior would be a means
SA> to change society the way he wanted it.
This is the only motive that holds any real plausibility. But it still
requires him to deceive his closest friends, unless they were in on the
fraud. That requires several people to have turned against their
religious upbringing for a lie, and suffer greatly for the lie. Still
doesn't explain why the Romans, let alone the Jews, would cooperate.
SA> There is always the chance that Jesus was who the apostles said
SA> he was, but there are so many possibilities and unanswered questions
SA> that there is a ready amount of doubt for that theory.
None of it can be proven beyond doubt. I never said it could.
MH> Consider how faithless the disciples were before the crucifixion,
MH> with Peter denying he even knew Jesus. Is a fleeting glimpse of
MH> someone who kinda sorta looked like Jesus going to suddenly make such
MH> a coward into a bold proclaimer who endures persecution?
SA> You only have the multiply passed down and translated versions of
SA> what the apostles said to verify this, Michael.
It is the only available evidence. If you reject it, then you have
nothing. IOW, my belief may be based on scant documentation from
sources you suspect, but yours is based on NO documentation from ANY
source.
... Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: evidence
|Date: 01 Mar 96 22:12:00
EID:7d0a 2061b180
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334394
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
EF> Well let's see what you call "evidence." Quoting from your post:
MH> He sounds like a condescending twit. Not to
MH> mention ignorant, judging
MH> by your presentation of his points about the
MH> words "love" and "day."
MH>
MH> In fact, the Hebrew word "yom," which is
MH> translated "day" in Genesis,
MH> does NOT have to mean a literal, 24-hour
MH> day. It can mean an
MH> unspecified age, as in our expression "in my
MH> grandfather's day." If I
MH> say that, I don't mean a 24-hour slice of
MH> time, but a period of years
MH> or decades. And if I say "in the day of the
MH> dinosaurs," I'm cramming
MH> millions of years into that "day."
EF> =====
EF> Ok I give. Where is the evidence? I see you asserting some things,
EF> based on your own personal authority, backed by your own personal
EF> authority. How many times do you need to be told that "because I say
EF> so" isn't evidence?
EF> Support conclusions and factual claims with references if you expect
EF> them to be considered worthy of the title "evidence."
Well ... later on in this post you say:
EF> That you cracked Strongs or some other tome and cribbed some data
EF> doesn't impress me.
OK, so I should cite my source of information, yet you're not going to
be "impressed" that I cited my source of information. IOW, whether I
cite a source or not, you're going to criticize.
Gotcha.
... Accordions don't play "Lady of Spain." People do.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Truth? Who Sez So?
|Date: 01 Mar 96 20:21:00
EID:b633 2061a2a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334395
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>>However, the Bible in its original Hebrew, is not incorrect. The word
> usually translated "birds" actually simply refers to flying vertebrat
> (as opposed to insects.)
> You can continue insisting it's an error if you like, but if you do,
> you'll be contradicting facts.
EF> Facts? Gee I nearly forgot that your idle speculations, off the cuff
EF> guess work, and first impressions have been divinely promoted to the
EF> level of fact.
MH> It is a fact that the Hebrew word means what it means.
EF> I am relieved to hear that it does not mean what it does not mean.
MH> Argue all you like, but it won't change the fact.
EF> I don't argue with facts. It is unnecessary. You look facts up, not
EF> argue them.
MH>That's not my opinion,
EF> How would you know that? Better, how would I know that?
MH>it is what people who have spent their lives learning how
MH>to translate ancient Hebrew say.
EF> Not a single one of these scholars came by and said: "any dang thing
EF> Mike Hardy says, we'll vouch for." Not one! What are we to make of
EF> that?
MH>Do you know more about ancient languages than people
MH>whose life work is studying ancient languages?
EF> And you speak for them, do you? Should we take your word that we
EF> should take your word for this?
Again, Elliott, I consulted several sources, primarily Strong's
Concordance. This is an objective resource which you also can obtain
and check me, if you're really skeptical.
See, I don't know what else to do. Whenever I offer an opinion on a
controversy, I consult the appropriate references to use in formulating
my opinion, and name them. Sometimes I quote them directly.
Have you simply decided that you are going to argue with everything I
say, even though I've backed up my opinion with references? Should I
send scholars to knock on your door, credentials in hand, to
corroborate my representation of their work?
Are you going to hold your own opinions to the same standard?
EF> Ok let's see what's going on here. Kick off your shoes, it will take
a
EF> minute. First, it isn't about whether what you say is correct or not.
EF> It may or may not be. As you suggest, my opinion, your opinion have
EF> not the slightest influence on the reality. Therein lies the beauty
of
EF> fact.
EF> If Hitler told us it was 2AM you would be rationally disallowed from
EF> saying "Hitler is the biggest liar in the world. You'd be a fool to
EF> believe it is 2AM." In other words, rejecting his claim *based on*
EF> his rather poor behavior as a German leader. (you could possibly
EF> reject it for other reasons but not that one). The reason you cannot
EF> is due to the nature of facts:
EF> A fact can be verified (potentially) by ANYONE - by definition. If I
EF> can't see what you see, or somehow confirm your observation, then it
EF> ain't a fact. Period.
EF> Because anyone (potentially) has access to a clock, you can't dismiss
EF> Hitlers assertion *just because* he is Hitler. He doesn't demand you
EF> take his word (or if he does, you don't have to ) since I can look
at
EF> a clock myself and see if he is lying or not. So because Hitler is
EF> stating a fact, and because he can't control fact, Hitler's
EF> reliability doesn't enter into it.
EF> To reject what Hitler says just because he is Hitler is the fallacy
EF> known as ad hominem.
EF> Sounds like I'm arguing against my position, doesn't it? Well hold on.
EF> Now lets say that clocks were rare or difficult to come by. You come
EF> to me and say "it is 2AM according to the best experts on time." I
am
EF> skeptical and you insist: "It IS 2AM! It is a fact. You don't claim
EF> to know more about time then do the world experts on the subject do
EF> you?"
EF> Well, no I don't. But I want to see the evidence for your conclusion
EF> before I agree. But you don't offer me the evidence (a clock). Yes,
I
EF> could expend much effort searching for a clock, but why? It is you who
EF> wants to convince me. I am not obliged to accept your word - either
EF> for the time or for your claim that the experts support you. If you
EF> wish me to accept your statement
EF> THEN SUPPLY ME WITH THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU YOURSELF USED TO DETERMINE
EF> THE TIME.
EF> When you make a factual claim without supplying me with the
EF> "directions" where confirming evidence can be located - such as book
EF> title, author, page # - You make it too difficult - too inefficient
a
EF> use of my time - to go digging at the library in order to confirm
EF> YOUR claim.
EF> On the other hand (back to the analogy) if you say "It is 2am
EF> according to Time expert Hans Clocksucker III, who uses a whizbang
EF> Grandfather clock located at the AM PM Mini Mart across the street."
EF> You have offered a path to verify the fact and thereby removed
EF> yourself from the equation. I could not reject your claim on the
EF> grounds of suspected bias or the possibility of error.
And I did exactly that by stating that my opinion in this particular
discussion -- "bats vs. birds" -- was gleaned from Strong's Hebrew
Concordance, which you can then consult for yourself if you suspect
I've misrepresented it, and can evaluate for yourself its credibility.
(I may not have mentioned Strong's in *this* post, but I'm sure I did
in the post that you responded to when you entered this discussion.)
I understand completely your argument regarding documentation of
opinions. You're right. However, I did exactly what you suggest should
be done, and I don't see where you have a valid complaint.
... Jesus saves. The rest of us rack up credit card debt.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Extraordinary Claims
|Date: 01 Mar 96 22:14:00
EID:97ca 2061b1c0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334396
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
EF> And yet it is obvious from his writtings that Paul knew far less
EF>about JC then we do today.
MH> It is? How so? Because he doesn't retell
MH> stories that the established
MH> Christian communities to which he was
MH> writing would already know?
EF> No. Because he seems unaware of much of the information supplied in
EF> the Gospels.
EF> BTW I'm changing my above to " ... Paul to know far less
EF> ..."
MH> Whether or not Paul mentioned, or even
MH> knew, many of the miracles associated with
MH> Jesus's life, he DOES
MH> mention the main two -- incarnation and
MH> resurrection.
MH> (Yes, he doesn't
MH> discuss the virgin birth, but incarnation
MH> refers only to the idea that
MH> Jesus was God in human form -- regardless of
MH> the nature of his birth.)
EF> Ok, but why didn't he seem to know of the trinitarian baptism? Why
EF> does he contradict JC on divorce? Important doctrine both, no?
Two separate issues, so I'll address them separately.
1. Remember, Paul was writing to communities that had already been
established. His letters were not basic, they were more of an advanced
theology, and answers to questions raised by people in the communities.
I don't see anything unreasonable about assuming that the people to
whom he wrote already knew such basic things as trinitarian baptism. He
doesn't mention baptism much at all in his letters, and always in
passing. He seems to expect his readers to know what he's talking
about without explanation, just as if I should mention a bicycle to you
I don't need to explain that it's an unpowered vehicle with two wheels
and foot pedals. ("Why," you might muse, "does Mickey seem to not know
of ten-speeds?" That would be just as reasonable as your question about
baptism.)
If you DO think that assumption is unreasonable, please explain why.
Last time I made this point to you, you simply sneered at it without an
explanation. Please DISCUSS any reason you have to think it's not
likely true.
2. The divorce question actually undercuts your own argument. Look at
the passage, 1 Corinthians 7:10 and onward. Especially note 10-12:
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife
must not separate from her husband.
11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled
to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a
wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he
must not divorce her.
(He goes on to permit divorce if the unbelieving spouse is unwilling to
stay, but that's less important than what's in v. 12. Read on,
McDuff.)
Note that Paul DOES paraphrase Jesus's words in vv. 10-11 -- not a
direct quote, but an exact restating of Jesus' teaching.
Now note that when trying to address a point which Jesus never
discussed, Paul knows he does NOT have a Jesus-tradition to fall back
on, and makes it VERY clear that his statement -- probably in answer
to a question from the Corinthians -- is his own opinion, not to
be taken as a word from the Lord.
Seems Paul knew more about Jesus than you thought, Elliott. :)
BTW, a good book on this subject -- if you're really interested -- is
"Paul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity?" by David Wenham.
c. 1995, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. ISBN: 0-8028-0124-2.
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Elliott Finesse
|Sub: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:17:00
EID:72d7 2061aa20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334397
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Elliott Finesse to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Eventually he will punish evil, but he
MH> allows everyone an
MH> opportunity to freely realize their sin,
MH> repent of it and be forgiven
MH> Eventually he will punish evil, but h
MH> allows everyone an
MH> opportunity to freely realize their sin,
MH> repent of it and be forgiven
EF> Oh yeah? Every time Pharaoh realized his "sin" and tried to repent,
EF> your god hardened his heart to make him refuse to allow the Jews to
EF> leave.
MH> Wrong. Pharaoh hardened his own heart after
MH> the first five plagues. It
MH> was only after it became obvious that he had
MH> his mind made up that God
MH> decided to make an example of him.
EF> Not wrong. Read Ex. 10:16,17 ".... I have sinned against the LORD
EF> your God and against you. Now therefore please forgive my sin only
EF> this once and entreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from
me
EF> this death only."
EF> Three verses later.
EF> 20: But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he did not let the
EF> children of Israel go."
That was after the eighth plague. By that time, God had chosen to make
an example of him -- inspired by his hardening his own heart over the
first five plagues.
EF> Which begins the cat and mouse game, with God working both sides.
MH> There's no indication that Pharaoh either
MH> relaized his sin or tried to
MH> repent of it.
EF> Read the verses I indicated. Or everything after 10:16 (or the entire
EF> book of Exodus period)
My statement was in error -- but Pharoah waited too long.
One failing I see very often in atheists is the implication that God is
somehow unjust for punishing sin. (God may have hardened Pharoah's
heart toward the very end, but it was the Egyptians' *choice* to
enslave the Israelites, and Egypt's choice to keep them enslaved, and
this particular Pharoah's choice to keep them enslaved up until God
beat the stew out of him. When he finally did want to relent, it was
out of fear rather than benevolence.)
God owes us NOTHING, Elliott. We choose to sin, and God has every right
to turn his back on all of us. Yet in his love he strives to save all
who choose to be saved. We should be profoundly grateful that he saves
any, yet some are arrogant enough to pass judgment on God for not
saving all -- even against the will of those who don't want it.
MH> Perhaps you should come to know the story
MH> before you deem yourself a
MH> worthy critic of it. :)
EF> You better believe I re-checked when you said I was wrong. But doing
EF> my homework kept my ass out of a sling once again. I think it is tacky
EF> to smirk or gloat when I am vindicated, so I will accept your apology
EF> graciously when it arrives. : )
I made some erroneous statements. I apologize for them. However, the
overall point is still correct -- God manipulated Pharoah only after
400+ years had made it clear that the Egyptians had no intention of
freeing the Israelites.
And he didn't manipulate Pharoah for his own pleasure, BTW, but to make
it clear to the nations that Israel was his people and not to be messed
with.
All Pharoah had to do was free the Hebrews and repent before their God
OF HIS OWN FREE WILL BEFORE GOD HAD TO RESORT TO REPEATED COERCION and
I've no doubt that God would have forgiven him and blessed his people.
... Tagline sold separately.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: QUOTE
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:27:00
EID:221c 2061ab60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334398
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Even evolutionists admit there is little fossil evidence of
MH> Darwinian evolution. Hence the need to invent punctuated
MH> equilibrium.
MG> So are you denying that evolution took place?
No, I'm not.
... Tagline sold separately.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:30:00
EID:c4fe 2061abc0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 89334399
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> KDM> Quite simply, existence of a human is a mundane claim;
MH> KDM> existence of a god is not.
MH>
MH> Fine. However, the gospels AND the letters of Paul insist that God
MH> exists and that Jesus was the physical incarnation of that God. You
MH> haven't explained how that belief developed in such a short time.
KDM> Ever played "Telephone?" In a society where there was no mass
KDM> communications, things like that would have happened all the faster.
Jews were very careful with both oral and written transmission of
information. Games like Telephone do what they do now because we're
simply not used to having to remember and communicate oral information.
For Jews, it was the primary method of passing along information, so it
was very important that it be done carefully.
KDM> If Jesus truly had risen, more people would have noticed.
Why do you say that? The accounts say that he selectively appeared to
those whom he chose to appear to.
... No one is useless. A worthless person may be used as a bad example.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Hardy
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:33:00
EID:1bb6 2061ac20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8933439A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
KDM> MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MH> JH> "(Secularists) also get passionate about passion. They have to
MH> JH> prove themselves, prove that they aren't what they really are:
MH> JH> spiritual wimps. So they substitute sexual passion for religious
MH> JH> passion, and become so fanatical about their addiction to it
MH> JH> that they practice, justify and encourage anything, from sodomy
MH> JH> to baby-killing, to preserve this 'right.'"
MH> JH> -- Michael Hardy states that we fuck dead babies in the
MH> JH> ass. His way of claiming the "higher moral ground".
MH>
MH> And I used to respect him.
MH>
MH> Kevin, read the quote -- which is not my words, BTW, but someone I'm
MH> quoting
KDM> Yes, I know that. However, if you didn't agree with them, why did
you
KDM> post them?
It was a troll -- although the person it was meant for didn't take the
bait.
John Prewett had said something along these same lines. I quoted this,
expecting him to offer his hearty agreement and adulation of the author
-- who I then would reveal is a Catholic polemcist.
... Very funny Scotty. Now beam up my clothes.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: or maybe just sugar
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:39:00
EID:70d3 2061ace0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8933439B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
See, this is what I object to:
JB> HATE IS NOT A FAMILY VALUE
You've sent me two posts of articles regarding the issue of whether
gays should have special protection under the law. This is a legitimate
issue to debate, and there may be valid arguments on both sides. Or
perhaps one side is clearly and completely in the wrong.
However, to assume that disagreement with something equals hate is
abhorrent to me. The mentality is: If you don't think homosexuals need
special protection above the basic civil rights everyone has, you must
"hate" gays. If you argue that immigrants shouldn't be allowed to enter
our country illegally and take welfare benefits that legal citizens
need, you must "hate" foreigners. If you think that unborn babies have
a right to become born babies, you must "hate" women.
As long as the liberal side persists in painting every conservative
position as "hate," we'll continue simply fighting with one another and
never finding common ground.
That's why I insist that Focus on the Family is not a "hate" group.
Yes, they hold firm moral convictions that certain behaviors are wrong.
But rather than engage them in a dialogue of IDEAS about whether those
behaviors are, in fact, wrong, you simply dismiss the critics as "a
hate group."
Disapproval of a behavior does not automatically equal hatred of people
who approve of or practice that behavior. You seem content to simply
call names rather than debate actual issues.
... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:48:00
EID:c943 2061ae00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8933439C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> However, you also seem to think that if a God *did* exist, the universe
MH> would be completely man-centered.
RB> And where, pray tell, did I get that notion?
I haven't a clue. Certainly not from the Christian religion.
MH> You, among others, have said that you
MH> take the fact that much of the universe appears to be lifeless, and
has
MH> little direct effect on us, to be evidence that it was not designed.
RB> You, among others, have said that this 'life sustaining'
RB> universe is indicative of a creator. I'm merely pointing
RB> out that nearly all of the universe is hostile to life.
RB> God has created a giant poisonous mushroom with only a
RB> minuscule edible portion.
MH> To which I say: Yes, the universe is much more vast than it needs to
be
MH> for our direct benefit. So what?
MH>
MH> And that's where egotism comes in -- why should you assume that God,
if
MH> God existed, would NOT have created a vast universe, for reasons that
MH> may have nothing to do with humanity whatsoever?
RB> Let me get this straight: I don't think there's a god, but
RB> if I did, I would have a huge ego for thinking he created the
RB> entire universe for our benefit? Is that like...'I don't
RB> think JFK's the Anti-Christ, but if I did, I'd be a nutcase
RB> living in Alaska'?
Wait, now I'm as confused as you are.
The point is simply this: Do you think the existence of a vast, mostly
lifeless universe is evidence *against* God's existence? (For you
certainly seem to.) If so, why do you think that?
I don't mean to assume that I know your opinion -- however, when
someone raises an objection to an idea, it's usually true that he
believes the objection be a valid one -- else, why raise it?
... Pull the other one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:50:00
EID:c943 2061ae40
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8933439D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Assuming a God exists, WHY do you assume that His creation would have
MH> to be either teeming with life, or centered around us? Why do you limit
MH> this hypothetical God to creating what is only of utilitarian purpose?
RB> Boy, you theists have done an about face. You've gone from
RB> fancying yourself as the 'center of creation' to 'an anomaly
RB> in the fabric of space'. Was that bit of wisdom gleaned from
RB> scripture or was it science that turned the tide?
I dispute that theism implies thinking of ourselves as the center of
creation. As far back as the Psalms, theists were proclaiming that the
beauty of the universe is for God's glory and benefit, not ours.
MH> Who are you to insist he can't create beauty for beauty's sake? Who
are
MH> you to assume there is no use for the rest of the universe just because
MH> *you* don't see a use for it?
RB> Bits of the universe may be quite useful for other lifeforms
RB> scattered about out there. But given the scale of things,
RB> nearly all of it is useless to us.
Good answer. Too bad it has nothing to do with the question. Try
again. For simplicity, let's just limit it to the first sentence:
Why can't God create beauty for beauty's sake?
MH> You also forget the question of scale. To an infinite God, a universe
MH> 10 microns across and one 10 exquillion light years across are pretty
MH> much the same. The vastness of space and the unfathomable billions
of
MH> years it has existed may boggle our minds, but to an infinite and
MH> eternal creator, they might as well be 10 miles and 15 years.
RB> With the passage of time and the advancements of science, God
RB> just keeps getting bigger and bigger. He's gone from the
RB> immediate tribe to the tops of mountains to the sea to the
RB> Earth to the sky to the ends of the universe.
God has *always* gone to the ends of the universe -- beyond them,
actually. The very first sentence of Genesis establishes that God
exists outside of time and outside of space -- for he creates both.
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: troll
|Date: 01 Mar 96 21:55:00
EID:fec9 2061aee0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 8933439E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Of _course_ I'm trolling,
DW> Really? Trolling is just a fancy word for lying. Is God proud of you
DW> right now?
Well, let's see ...
Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While
we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Dunno about proud, but he loves me still (and you too, for that
matter.) That's good enough for me.
... A Mexican won the lottery. It was a million to Juan.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 123/1
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: address
|Date: 01 Mar 96 23:22:00
EID:a62a 2061bac0
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 313786f9
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8932437D
-=| On 29 Feb 96 10:53, Michael Hardy said: |=-
MH> I used doosterman@voyager.com. If that's wrong, give me the right one.
MH> If that's right, say so and I'll try again. I may have mis-typed a
MH> character or something. (nit thet i evet makr typigephicsl erroes.)
It's wrong, and you're dumb. BTW, I'm listening to you ramble as I type
this... :)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: fred
|Date: 02 Mar 96 00:42:00
EID:1800 20620540
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 31379988
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89324389
-=| On 29 Feb 96 20:41, Michael Hardy said: |=-
DO>> Dear Fred,
DO>> Does it suck to not have a life?
MH> Is it life to not have a suck?
MH> (Forget I said that ... ) ;-)
Said what? :P BTW, thanks for the chat.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: John Prewett
|To: ALL
|Sub: Taking a break
|Date: 29 Feb 96 22:11:40
EID:d617 205db160
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3
MSGID: 1:355/2.1012 1371f9f0
FMPT 1012
Taking a break
To- Whoever may have recently sent me a post-
I'll routinely pick up my mail, and will save it, however,
I don't expect to be responding for at least a couple of months.
Lord help us all. WBW, John
--------------------------------
[Note how Pat Robertson fits into the following]
From- NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER February 9, 1996 page 11 begin quote-
WORLD - ORDER OF MALTA VALUABLE TO CHURCH IN ZAIRE
KINSHASA: Zaire - The French term 'procureur' might sound almost indecent
to the English-speaking ear. But few of Zaire's churches, Catholic or
Protestant, could function without one.
In the rough-and-tumble scramble to survive Zaire's predatory bureaucrats
and cannibal capitalism, few church officials are more essential than the
'procureur,' the person whose job it is to obtain the money and goods necessary
for church activities.
When I first visited Zaire a decade ago the Catholic diocesan 'procureur's'
office [called the 'procure'] was the easiest and safest place to exchange
money. Located behind Kinshasa's St. Anne's Catholic Church it offered an
exchange rate for traveler's checks midway between bank and black-market
rates Ñ but without banks' bureaucratic hassles or the risk of arrest or
theft during a street deal.
The 'procureur' is typically a foreign priest, trusted to resist corruption
more easily than Zairean priests, who are pressured by economic needs and
cultural attitudes to help their many relatives. In recent years, Protestant
churches have set up their own 'procures,' which, along with their Catholic
counterparts, provide many essential logistic services for both local churches
and missionaries.
But no 'procure' carries as much cachet and political clout in Zaire as
the wealthy and politically conservative Sovereign Order of Malta.
Founded in the 11th century to give medical aid to Christian pilgrims in
the Holy Land, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John
Ñ after assuming military duties in the 12th century and relocating to
Malta three centuries later Ñ soon acquired the name Knights of Malta.
A lay religious order whose head enjoys the rank of cardinal, it gradually
evolved into a sovereign entity akin to Italian and German city-states,
largely controlled by a few wealthy businessmen and aristocrats.
This has given it a unique status: as a charitable nongovernmental organization
whose "ambassadors" enjoy diplomatic immunity analogous to the Vatican's
in many countries. It currently operates or supports clinics and hospitals
in almost 90 countries.
The order achieved a certain notoriety for the profascist sympathies of
some European members during World War II and its later collaboration with
the Central Intelligence Agency in covert actions against leftists in Italy
and Central America. Among U.S. knights are the late William Casey [former
CIA director under Reagan], former Treasury Secretary Bill Simon and the
late J. Peter Grace, a Reaganite businessman.
Grace helped found AmeriCares, an international charity known for its close
links to right-wing militaries in Central America and for providing medical
aid to Nicaraguan contras in Honduras. One of AmeriCares' largest funders
has been the Christian Broadcasting Network run by Pat Robertson. The
TV evangelist is known for his close ties to Zairean President Mobutu Sese
Seko, extensive economic interests in Zaire [reported to include diamond,
timber and gold concessions granted his privately owned, for-profit firm,
African Development Co.] and recent lobbying efforts to win the diplomatically
isolated Mobutu a coveted visa to visit Washington.
The Knights of Malta diplomatic status has made it a popular aid partner
in Zaire, where it first established its embassy in 1987. A 1993 U.S.
Agency for International Development assessment of emergency needs in Zaire
characterized the order as "a valuable asset yet to be tapped to its fullest"
given its "extensive network of contacts on all fronts" and unique ability
to "obtain [duty-free] diplomatic treatment" for relief supplies.
At monthly meetings of relief agencies, the order is listed among embassy
participants, rather than as a nongovernmental organization. When several
aid agencies' vehicles were stolen by Zairean soldiers a couple of years
ago, diplomatic intervention by the order assured their return, according
to several Kinshasa sources.
The order's activities are many and diverse, Fr. Robert Debourse, counselor
at the order's downtown Kinshasa embassy, told NCR. [Debourse, a Belgian
priest, has worked in Zaire for 40 years, "the reason I have all this white
hair," he quipped.] In addition to providing medical supplies for hospitals
and clinics, the order has helped fund Zaire's sole journal for health professionals,
supported community-based nutrition centers and provided food to those in
Zaire's notoriously ill-run prisons.
The order imports many vehicles for its own and other nongovernmental organizations'
medical and educational projects as well as for use by local diocesan development
offices. It also organizes logistics for volunteer Belgian-Zairean medical
teams organized by 'Doctors Without Vacations' that work at several hospitals
for the handicapped.
The order has assisted recent victims of "ethnic cleansing" expelled from
Zaire's southern Shaba province to resettle in Kasai, said Debourse. Aided
by the European Union and World Food Program, the order helped supply food
and transport for new arrivals and seeds for staple crops to farmers at
seven sites in the Kasai region.
The order has worked closely with a number of embassies, international
aid agencies like Caritas and Catholic Relief Services and local church
structures in the Kasai resettlement effort. In eastern Zaire, added Debourse,
it also works with Caritas and other agencies to assist Rwandan refugees
and has a fuel project with the French oil company Golf and American firm
Chevron.
Asked about the order's relations with the Zairean government, "we have
a state-to-state cooperation agreement with Mobutu," Debourse told NCR,
"just like other embassies." Asked how its role differs from that of the
Vatican, "the Vatican treats purely religious issues while we deal with
humanitarian issues only," he added. ÑCC
Steve Askin also contributed to this story.
SideBox- "The order has assisted recent victims of "ethnic
cleansing" expelled from Zaire's southern Shaba province.
-END QUOTE-
--- MacWoof Eval:17Nov94
* Origin: Slinging Seeds, FBKS, AK (1:355/2.1012@fidonet)
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PATH: 355/2 270/101 218/801
|From: John Brawley
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 01 Mar 96 10:57:32
EID:34ea 20615720
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 7da66094
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org b04177d7
On 27 Feb 96, Karl Schneider wrote:
JB> EF> Or consider a fly landing on a table top. The fly occupies a surface
JB> EF> area of 1 mm^2. The table top is 1 metre x 1 metre, or 1,000,000
KS> JB>Presuming a standard housefly, no housefly is only one square
KS> millimeter JB>in table-surface-covering area. (More like 30 or 40
KS> mm^2; 8mm long by 5 JB>wide.)
KS> Yuck. Where I live an 8x5 fly would be a HORSEfly....as long as
KS> we're picking nits...
Nits? Small horsefly.... I'm in Missouri. Here, horseflies are over
two CENTimeters long.
KS> Anyway the precision of the diptera's dimensions isn't germane to the
KS> argument....
It, like in many cases with creationists (not that EF is one), reduces
the 'level of power' of the numerical argument. 1 in 1,000,000 is a bit
different from 40 in 1,000,000.
(He agreed with me, by the way, saying that he'd never really thought
about that 1mm^2 fly being too small.)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Its a dogma-eat-dogma world!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 01 Mar 96 11:01:31
EID:aba8 20615820
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6a6960c1
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 12f8002a
On 28 Feb 96, Steve Rose wrote:
JB> but then, how many people pay _attention_ to their telephome
JB> cords?
SR> Or 'telephone' cords for that matter. Apparently, not enough of them.
(?) What? Poking at me for a _typo_? Well, all right:
SR> Then again...how many people bindly want that alien autopsy garbage
Depends on how many have bound eyes, I guess. (*grin*) Typo-poking,
in_deed_....
SR> to be a true and real and will turn a blind eye to the damning
SR> evidence? Same deal. Same with the xtians who want their precious
SR> myth-babbles to really BE authentic.
'S fine, sir, I agree, but _I_ merely asked for something definitive to
use _against_ the UFOnuts. I don't believe the autopsy was "real," but
it'd be nice to know how to _prove_ that, with clear anachronisms in the
props used.
You've really got a prejudicial attitude, sir. Try a little less
presumption and a little more reasonableness.
JB> I don't know what was _wrong_ with the cord
SR> I am sure it worked fine...being a film prop. I doubt it ever did
SR> much actual dialing out in '47...since the style seen was not yet
SR> utilized in 'real' life till years later. But as you point out...they
Could you please tell me _what_ exactly was wrong with it? I have the
autopsy on tape (provided I didn't overwrite it with a Xena, an
Hercules, or a Babylon 5....)(*g*)
SR> don't pay much attention. The continuity artists were probably all
SR> hoping everyone would be so busy watching their little dummy-cadaver
SR> steal the show as it was being 'sliced up', that they could get away
SR> with less that perfect details in the backround.
Damn fine work, too. Do you know whether the genitalia were "fuzzed
out" in the original, or only for the network broadcast?
JB> Origins of Man" on NBC, hosted by no less a personage than
JB> Charlton Heston, in which we yet again see the likes of Carl Baugh
JB> (Paluxy 'mantracks') spouting bullshit. These people should not
JB> be allowed to get AWAY with that level of public balderdash.
SR> I especially love the part about how the earth's mantle and crust
SR> dramatically 'shift' under the weight of their current polar-caps ever
SR> 50,000 years. Our Antarctic is the former 'Continent of Atlantis?'
SR> Haha! Gotta love them. Actually makes some of your outlandish
SR> theosophical musings seem plausible! :D
I didn't find that all that unreasonable. It wasn't nearly as ludicrous
as Walter Brown's sudden sliding of the continents _apart_ as the
"fountains of the deep" spit the water in the collapsing worldwide cave
network into the sky. At least, the sliding mantle idea slid everything
as a _unit_, and it was consistent with what would happen if a slight
wobble is induced in a rotating sphere that has its mass poorly
distributed. That wasn't such a ludicrous idea. Probably didn't
_happen_, of course, but it wasn't physically ridiculous.
Anyway, it was good to see the thing wasn't all of it _creationist_ YEC
baloney.
Did you catch the old lady "scientist" who said there were _two_ dating
methods, the "uranium" method and the "zircon" method? Do you know why
that was an error?
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Christianity: Music by God; Lyrics by Joshua ben-Joseph.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 01 Mar 96 11:15:00
EID:24af 206159e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 88638df6
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 62dec4ed
On 28 Feb 96, Martin Goldberg wrote:
MG> JB>> "The LORD said to Moses, 'Avenge the people of Israel on the
MG> JB>> Midianites; afterward you shall be gathered to your
MG> JB>> people.'"
JB> It does reality-lovers no good to be seen doing exactly the same
MG> I have not done any such thing. I have not misquoted nor quoted out
MG> of context. As a matter of fact, the above ws entered by you. I
(?) Of course it was. Are our messages crossing?
JB> The claim is that God ordered the killing. That's FALSE.
JB> _Moses_ ordered the killing, strictly and precisely. You
JB> have plenty of other ammunition that _isn't_ ambiguous; you
JB> don't need to distort the text in order to make your point,
JB> so why do it?
MG> Once again, I distorted nothing, so there is no need to lie about it.
MG> The text in question says that they should go out and AVENGE
MG> themselves. What does this mean to you? Look it up in a dictionary
MG> if you have a problem.
Avenge does not of _necessity_ mean "kill" or "slaughter." Enslaving
the Midianites, extracting tribute, imprisoning them, exiling their King
and their leaders, destroying their crops --all qualify as 'avenging
themselves.' The POINT is that the text does not _literally_ report God
instructing Moses in detail, to do what _Moses_ later instructed his
armies to do. That's all. It was _imprecise_, not necessarily "wrong."
MG> The above quote of vengence is just that. it means to avenge
MG> yourself. How did people avenge themselves and as a matter of fact,
MG> how do many still do it? Do you think that they would go out and play
MG> some Nixonian Dirty Tricks on the opponents. Of course not. They
MG> would avenge by killing, and raping them.
So? That's all fine. They _did_ that, but sir, this is ALL
interpretation, not literal-quoting. It is Sophist, and I hate
sophistry whe