God Damned Fundies!
|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:06:55
EID:222b 2065a8c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2762
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892F439F
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy spewed forth the following Ryan Shaw:
MH> Come on, Ryan. If you have some evidence, trot it out.
RS> That's a very humorous statement coming from a fundy.
The reason it is rather humorous is because you choose to believe in many
things without evidence. We've asked your for evidence to back up those
said beliefs again and again, yet you have failed to do so thus far.
In the words of a now infamous HolySmoke infidel: `Do I sense a double
standard here?'
MH> And you still present no evidence for your claim -- your ignorant,
MH> incorrect claim -- that the KJV includes intentional errors.
As I have stated on many occasions, it is something I recall reading rather
vividly. At the moment, due to more important things, I have no time to
spend a couple of hours hunting down my Western Civ. text from high school
in the university's library. Spring break will soon be here however. Depending
on how much time I end up spending in the woods enjoying myself I may get
to that during the break.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: U2
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:13:14
EID:3c82 2065a9a0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2763
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892F43A0
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy spewed forth the following Ryan Shaw:
RS> Personally, I interpret the song [as well as almost all of their work
RS> after Joshua Tree/Rattle and Hum] as questioning their religious views
RS> and taking a step back from them.
MH> However, the point was the the last verse of "The First Time"
MH> illustrates free will as regards heaven. Bono chooses to leave by
MH> the back door and throw away the key (in the song.) Yet the choice
MH> is his.
Yet Bono is not the word of God. I thought the only true Christian doctrine
was in the Bible?
MH> Bono's an insightful man. Why shouldn't I quote him if he makes a
MH> valid point in an eloquent way?
You've got a point. He's got long hair and he's a drunkard, not unlike
those that wrote your holy book.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Question
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:14:57
EID:69a6 2065a9c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2764
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 892F43A1
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Michael Hardy spewed forth the following George Rudzinski:
MH> Is there? Unless someone is preventing black people from posting
MH> here, it seems it's purely a matter of whether any choose to. No
MH> one is keeping them out, nor is anyone forcing them in. That is
MH> true of all of us.
Except for Staal of course. In his case, there seems to be some type of
supernatural alien powere keeping him here against his will.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: One God not three
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:15:57
EID:895e 2065a9e0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2765
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 132eb417
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
John Prewett spewed forth the following Ryan Shaw:
RS> That's an easy excuse. Tell me then, do you believe god
RS> created the heavens and earth?
RS> Or do you KNOW this?
JP> I believe I know it. I know I believe it.
One doesn't need to believe in facts.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: One Staal (Under his god)
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:16:26
EID:ea33 2065aa00
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2766
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 132eb41e
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
John Prewett spewed forth the following George Rudzinski:
GR> george ... 1-800-Go-Pat-Go. Contribute to the working man's hero!
JP> Are you a Pat Buchanan supporter ?
I doubt he is. People from the other side of the fence would love to see
Buchanan go up against Clinton though, and that's why there are a lot of
`liberals' making donations.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: All
|Sub: the true nature of christians
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:17:41
EID:7d44 2065aa20
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2767
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that most if not all
Christians are self-centered son of a bitches. It would seem to me that
they do not worship their god for the sake and `glory' of the action, but
rather they're attempting to save their own asses from eternal hellfire
and such.
It's a pity that I have had to expose them like this. The truth always
hurts.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: demons...DEMONS
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:31:11
EID:f42b 2065abe0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2768
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Judith Bandsma spewed forth the following All:
JB> thing runs on my old 286 with *1* meg of RAM. DOS only, of course.
JB> Last night I tried launching it on the new system just to see how
JB> it would look. (Yes, I did drop to DOS mode first...I ain't *that*
JB> dumb) And I get...are you ready for this one?..."Yserbius needs
JB> 512K to run. Insufficient memory". Uh, guys...I've got 16mb, so
JB> what gives? I guess a few demons have escaped from the dungeon and
JB> infested the system.
There are lots of problems with older games running under Win95 and/or OS/2.
Did you just drop to DOS or did you boot straight to DOS? Win95 is loaded
on top of DOS, although Billy wouldn't like you to think so. I believe
you can edit your WIN.INI file so that it just loads up the new version
of DOS that came with Win95. You could even keep two copies and create
a boot disk with the one with the non-Win95 boot setup on it in order to
play that game.
On another note, by choosing Win95 you have sold your soul to Satan.
}:->
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Question
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:34:05
EID:cdb5 2065ac40
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2769
REPLY: 1:228/500.0 313302c4
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
George Rudzinski spewed forth the following Styx Allum:
GR> Not positively but I'm pretty sure. There would be no reason for a
GR> black person not to answer my question.
I respect most of the things you say, but I haven't the faintest idea why
you keep pressing on with this. What difference does it really make what
color someone is? That is indeed the beauty of the online world. In everyday
life we sometimes make subconscious judgements just by looking at someone.
These judgements sometimes cloud what that person really has to say. In
cyberspace that will never happen and that's why it's such a good thing.
It is nearly the only place where ideas and information can be exchanged
_without_ human nature getting in the way of things.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:38:31
EID:45c6 2065acc0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf276a
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 1e94b74b
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Styx Allum spewed forth the following Jim Staal:
> Only once, sir...ok...this twice.
SA> Divine prophecy? Hardly. You sent me netmail regarding the goings
SA> on in HolySmoke. That illustrated quite clearly that you were
SA> still reading the echo (i.e. NEVER LEFT).
He has sent me netmail as well. Oddly, it was crashed here. I wonder why
his `sysop' gives him such freedoms?
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:39:35
EID:e964 2065ace0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf276b
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31345d34
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Mark Staal spewed forth the following Styx Allum:
SA> We've heard this story before. We know how it (never) ends.
SA> Jimbo has already slipped up a couple of times.
MS> ....That may be, but, when I last spoke to him he was quite
MS> serious about this and said he wasn't coming back because of the
MS> abuse his wife was taking from CERTIAN people on this
MS> echo.....So, I wouldn't bet the farm that he'll be back real soon
MS> if ever.
Are you talking to yourself again, Jimbo? Or are those just voices in your
head?
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Dont have the time.
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:43:55
EID:b55b 2065ad60
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf276d
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 63125ea7
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Martin Goldberg spewed forth the following Ryan Shaw:
MG> I think that his mojo, like his slaussen, has been cut off.
Slauáen? If my hunch is correct, this is a Yiddish term for penis. Yiddish
seems to be full of such words.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Taking a break
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:44:22
EID:0aa9 2065ad80
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf276e
REPLY: 1:355/2.1012 1371f9f0
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
John Prewett spewed forth the following ALL:
JP> Taking a break
JP> To- Whoever may have recently sent me a post-
JP> I'll routinely pick up my mail, and will save it, however,
JP> I don't expect to be responding for at least a couple of months.
Awwww, just when it was getting good. Are you off to kill more bears in
the Alaskan wilds?
JP> Lord help us all. WBW, John
Indeed. }:->
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:46:41
EID:5c61 2065adc0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf276f
REPLY: 1:116/19 035AAF3E
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Al Schroeder spewed forth the following Judith Bandsma:
AS> *Sigh* I love this state in many ways, but our
AS> politicians...either we have really good ones, like Lamaar
AS> Alexander or Al Gore (both sr. or jr.) or our last governor---or
I had the pleasure of seeing Al Gore Sr. speak at the university here a
couple of weeks ago. It was a conference held in honor of one of our great
politicians: Wayne Morse.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:48:55
EID:6f62 2065ae00
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2771
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Brad Jackson spewed forth the following All:
BJ> The bible is inspired by God!
How do you KNOW?
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: HolySmoke Pick Yer Poison List
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:49:28
EID:30b3 2065ae20
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13cf2772
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 633980bd
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
J.J. Hitt spewed forth the following Christopher Baker:
CB> Christopher Baker atheist Coca Cola Classic
CB> w/lime
JJH> With LIME ?
That sounds like it's up there with yogurt and steak sauce. ;)
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Hardy pretends there's nothing
|Date: 03 Mar 96 15:27:13
EID:8356 20637b60
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Steve Rose > Norbert Sykes : Hardy pretends there's nothing
SR> Norbert Sykes wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
SR> "Ooooohhhhhh... I don't want him - you can have him
SR> "His name is Har-deeeeee
SR> "A big dis-grace to the hu-man race...
SR> "He's too dumb for meeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
NS> I had no clue you were a polka fan. I bet a lot of people don't
NS> even connect the tune with this . . . (It's the Too-Fat Polka,
NS> folks, unless I'm wwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy off . . . )
SR> Watch out...or next we'll hear the yearly Holysmoke rendition of:
SR> "My Gawd's Biiiiiiger than Yoooooouuur Gawd!" :)
. "My God's bigger than yours!
. "My God's bigger 'cause he eats Kennel Ration,
. "My God's bigger than yours . . . "
This'll make perfect sense to all the dyslexic worshippers out there
. . . };) Gee, maybe I spent too much time as a kid watching
television . . .
... By thought, I embrace the universal. -- Blaise Pascal
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Big bird
|Date: 03 Mar 96 15:40:52
EID:ba73 20637d00
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/ |||| |||
Masochistic Maiden > Norbert Sykes : Big bird
NS> confusing discrimination with discernment. A child needs to know
NS> how to tell and apple from an orange, especially if he's allergic.
NS> This is discernment. It is not the exact same as discrimination.
MM> Actually, this was precisely the response I was hoping for. So many
MM> groups, and viewpoints do NOT differentiate between these. I think it
MM> is to our advantage to teach discernment without discrimination.
This is probably not a bad idea . . . }:)
MM> Therefore... expose people to everything that can be explored, then
MM> help them develop discernment along lines of their own personal
MM> choices.
Rather, allow them the option to expose themselves to many varied
things, etc. Otherwise, there's an element of control there.
Don't make the kids go to Chinatown with you, but allow them that
option. Don't make them eat strange things, but have different
foods there for them to eat if they feel inclined to try them. My
youngest loves brussel sprouts because of this (heh heh heh), but
then, so do I.
MM> Rather, we tend to try to "Yell" discrimination whenever our
MM> choice isn't the most popular. A difficult line to walk at times.
I think we over react. A friend and I walked over and picked up my
five year old from kindergarden. On the way home, he was talking
about a black boy in his class. My friend took the opportunity to
give forth a homily on race and the imperative to not discriminate
(i.e., the color shouldn't matter, etc.) which had my son totally
confused, as he'd been talking about a black BALL, not another
child but a plaything on the playground. Heh.
But, on the obverse, and to keep this sort of thing in perspective
and within the boundries of the topic here, the most I've ever been
pissed off was a few years ago when we had a visit from Child
Protective Services because they heard we were perhaps kinda
cultish and wanted to make sure that we weren't going to sacrifice
our offspring to Satan or something. Fucking idiots. During the
interview we let them know that we've pagan, yes, but that they
were also pretty stupid for ever assuming such a thing. They
backpedaled a bit, but then hit us with the statement that made me
so mad: "Well, I hope you're taking your children to other
religious services so that they can make an informed choice about
their faith."
Not only am I convinced that they'd never do that to a Xtian set of
parents ("Hey, why don't you guys take your kids down to the Church
of Satan so they can get some perspective and make a fair
choice?"), but I saw it as unnecessary. I didn't adhear to any
religion for most of my adutl life and they're welcome to follow
that path and chose what they want when they're adults.
My point is that we shouldn't foster beliefs on them until such a
time as they can think for themselves and be able to accept or
reject them for themselves.
MM> Thanks for jumping on this one. So.... how do we teach discernment
MM> without censorship? Exposure to negatives as well as positives is
MM> valuable don't you think?
Answer to first question: I don't know . . . just keep things
available.
Answer to second question: Not sure I agree on this one. I see no
reason to encourage a negative just so the kids can get an
education. I tend to think the Native American way of education
children in the wiles of life was the best: let them do as they
wish (unless its life threatening) . . . when they burn themselves,
they'll learn not to pick up hot things.
... Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jets!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 03 Mar 96 15:41:47
EID:e5ad 20637d20
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
J.J. Hitt > Norbert Sykes : Cult Christianity
NS> Next week he'll suggest we all go out and adopt Serbs or
NS> something.
JH> Thank you.... that just gave me a wicked idea.
Oh, no! You're not going to blame this one on me . . . };) You're
welcome, I hope . . .
... 24 hours in a day/24 beers in a case: Coincidence???
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 03 Mar 96 15:46:03
EID:ba9e 20637dc0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
J.J. Hitt > Norbert Sykes : Comminuion
JH>> Of course, it gave them a rather grotesque facination with
JH>> death. An obsession that persists in the contemporary
JH>> popular culture of Mexico. Mexicans are the most morbid
JH>> people on earth.
NS> My personal favorite is Dia De La Muerta. Someday, I want
NS> to be down in Mexico for some of the celebration. And they
NS> have a good grotesque folklore that I'm surprized that
NS> filmmakers haven't exploited up to now. Scary stuff.
JH> It's not just the November 1st celebration, it permiates all
JH> aspects of daily life. Take a look at a mexican tabloid
JH> newspaper some time. It's not enough for them to report that
JH> so-and-so hung themselves, THEY SHOW YOU in full color.
I love the Mexican Vampire Movies. Those things out-rock the
Hammer Vampire films as far as gore, etc. I know exactly what you
mean.
JH> Crime scenes, autopsies, accidents and disasters are all
JH> reported in gory, explicit, full color.
Kind of like the old horror mags you used to buy here (many of
which were published by Willim Gaines, I believe) that were
outlawed and restricted years ago . . . and now seem to be coming
back to life in the form of Tales From the Crypt, etc.
JH> And yet... with all these dead (and often mutilated) bodies
JH> being so graphically displayed, they will still black out the
JH> nipples on a woman's breasts or airbrush a pair of panties on her.
I guess if there was a roving band of giant nipple-headed
bloodsuckers (welllllll, what an idea!) they'd have a quandry on
their hands, eh?
JH> The level of weirdness never ceases to amaze me.
Well, they're still under the thrall of the Church down there.
Blood and gore is okay, just not sex. But it DOES strike me as
odd, too . . .
... 1st great joke on society by the Scots: They call bagpipes music...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Angels...
|Date: 03 Mar 96 15:47:01
EID:96cb 20637de0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
J.J. Hitt > Norbert Sykes : Angels...
JH> On Mar 01 12:52 96, Norbert Sykes of 1:203/289 wrote:
JH>> Relax... we're overdue for the next Mormon to pass
JH>> through. Should be here any day now.
JH>> They're always a lot of fun.
JH>> Some of them have even lasted for two or three weeks.
NS> << street>>> Ayup, the Tuesday Mormon is running a bit late I see .
JH> Probably took a wrong turn at Planet Kolob.
JH> They tend to do that a lot.
Maybe they're getting their shoes resoled after walking around on
the Sun for a while. I could understand THAT . . .
... 2nd great joke on society by the Scots: They call golf a game...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Pantheacon Stuff 1/4
|Date: 03 Mar 96 15:51:10
EID:2e45 20637e60
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
J.J. Hitt > Norbert Sykes : Pantheacon Stuff 1/4
NS> My pleasure. I'm those people too, at times, especially
NS> the Monster Truck Pagans, I suppose. At least, the MTP's
NS> seem the most appealing . . .
JH> What I want to know is where do they think they are they going to
JH> get the fuel for those trucks after The Big Fuck Up happens?
They won't hear you . . . they're too busy making sure they have
enough gas to run the generator so they can watch Mad Max.
JH> The Survivalist mentality has always amused me (it's an offshoot
JH> of Mormon theology, so it's gauranteed to be weird in all it's
JH> varients).
I can understand the first half of it . . . many are the times I'd
just wished that everyone went away. But I'm as perplexed as you
on the rest of it.
JH> The folks who look forward to the colapse of society as some sort
JH> of blessing need to take their rose colored glasses off and take a
JH> good look at how life used to be in the days they are so fond of
JH> romanticising about. Down here on the Gulf Coast, Yellow Fever used
JH> to kill quite a few people. Remove the existing modern
JH> infrastructure and it will return. And Cholera is always good for a
JH> laugh or two. Typhus, anyone?
Influenza, polio, hoof and mouth, etc. Not to mention all the
birds that are estimated to die if most of the population goes. A
lot of them are now dependent on man. And a lot of different plant
species as well. Where does one get seeds for seedless cucumbers?
Yeah, it'll be a lot more than civilization just falling.
... 3rd great joke on society by the Scots: They eat haggis & call it food
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 03 Mar 96 16:15:57
EID:bf59 206381e0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Michael Hardy > Norbert Sykes : Flood
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> SA> The people at Jonestown and Waco also suffered and died for what
MH> SA> they believed in, and they were contemporary to the leaders of
MH> SA> their groups. Just because someone lived at the same time,
MH> SA> Michael, does not mean that they are knowledgeable about what
MH> SA> has gone on in that time from someone else's perspective.
MH> The resurrection of Jesus was an EVENT!! It was not a claim, such as
MH> the claims made by Koresh or Jim Jones.
NS>
KDM> It is a *claim* of an event, Mike.
MH> And well-attested to by what evidence we have available -- mainly the
MH> fact that people who lived very close in time and space to the event
MH> believed it. That is, those most in a position to know it wasn't true
MH> believed it was true.
MH> The claims of Jones and Koresh, in contrast, are not even *claims* of
MH> events. They are claims, period.
NS> Are you saying that Jonestown and Waco didn't happen?
MH> Here's your free clue for the day: What happened at Jonestown and
MH> Waco doesn't require Jones and Koresh's claims to be true. Jesus's
MH> return from the dead *does* depend on his claims being true.
MH> Now don't waste any more of my time if you can't come up with
MH> something better than what you had this time.
Point of order, dippy, but I did ask for a reason. Both Jonestown
and Waco were events, contrary to your claim. We even have
photographs to back them up. I'm not getting into your pissing
contest to see who has the most real savior, or if he's less
filling or tastes great. I wanted to know how you could imply that
they (Waco and Jonestown) never happened?
You see, it all comes down to this: if you claim that things that
we have proof of happening didn't, yet claim that something we have
no proof of happening did, you're shooting yourself in your logical
foot. And, incidently, risking a nasty head wound.
So, I just wanted to find out how you managed to totally ignore the
standard definition of words we in the English Speaking World use
everyday, just to rationalize your claims.
claim (klAYm) --verb
1. To demand as one's due.
2. To state to be true.
3. To call for; require.
--noun
1. A demand for something as one's due.
2. Title or right.
3. Something claimed.
4. A statement of something as a fact.
--Idioms:
lay claim to
To assert one's right to or ownership of.
[< Lat. clamare, to call]
--claim'able adjective
event (i-vent') --noun
1. An occurrence or incident, esp. one of significance.
2. One of the items in a sports program.
[Lat. eventus]
So unless you want to totally redefine the wordage of the English
Language to conform to what you want it to believe (Has an Alice in
Wonderland quality to it, doesn't it dippy?) and thereby ruining
your credability, I was giving you a chance to state clearly what
you actually meant, rather than ranting any more. Bravo, you
performed admirably.
Oh, and by the way, if I'd known that a question this simple would
so tax your mental gears and get your panties in this much of a
bunch, I'd've done it long ago.
... 9 out of 10 men who try camels prefer women.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: demons...DEMONS
|Date: 03 Mar 96 16:34:47
EID:2b02 20638440
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
Karl Schneider > Judith Bandsma : demons...DEMONS
JB>Except for the music, this thing runs on my old 286 with *1* meg of RAM.
JB>DOS only, of course. Last night I tried launching it on the new system
just
JB>to see how it would look. (Yes, I did drop to DOS mode first...I ain't
*that*
JB>dumb) And I get...are you ready for this one?..."Yserbius needs 512K
to run.
JB>Insufficient memory". Uh, guys...I've got 16mb, so what gives? I guess
a
JB>few demons have escaped from the dungeon and infested the system.
KS> You need to have a memory manager to work with DOS. Try this in
KS> your config.sys file: device=\himem.sys
is where the file is, probably in c:\windows
JB>Somebody pray for it.
KS> Naw, we want it to work
Why don't we get Assmotrin to curse it then? He'll curse ANYTHING
. . . };)
... A stiff apology is a second insult. -- G. K. Chesterton
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Missing Child Alert - Satan
|Date: 03 Mar 96 16:48:36
EID:b7ab 20638600
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
J.J. Hitt > All : Missing Child Alert - Satan
JH> MISSING CHILD ALERT
JH> )\ _.___._ /(
JH> /:|'##666##'|:\ Name: Satan
JH> / __ __ \ Date of Birth: October 23, 4004 BC
JH> : __~\ /~__ : Race: Mytholical
JH> ( ( .\ \|/ /. ) ) Hair: none
JH> | \_~_) . (_~_/ | Eyes: red, glowing
JH> (._ ~ /_\ ~ _.)
JH> \\_._._._._// Last seen in the company of Jesus
JH> \\V V V V// Christ, a convicted felon from
JH> \\.^.^.// the middle east. Satan was wearing
JH> (_____) red leotards with a matching cape.
JH> "Have you seen me?
JH> Mr. Christ is reported to have been wearing a white bathrobe.
JH> If you have any information regarding this missing demon or
JH> of any missing sprite, imp, devil, demigod, seraphim or
JH> magical being please call:
JH>
JH> National Lost Cause Recovery Service at 1-800-GET-LOST.
This is classic. It'll make George very happy. BTW, where did you
get the picture of Assmotrin?
... Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 03 Mar 96 16:51:03
EID:16b9 20638660
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
J.J. Hitt > George Mooth : Our Daily Alien
JH> CETIANS - (or Tau Cetians). A human race of 'Mediterranean' or
JH> 'South American' appearing, tan-skinned humans. Very similar
JH> to caucasian humans on Terra except for SLIGHT differences
JH> (slightly pointed ears, higher physical 'density' for their
JH> size, slightly broader nose, 5' 5" tall on average, and often
JH> wear short 'Roman' or 'crew' style haircuts). Tau Ceti and
JH> Epsilon Eridani are said to be a major 'convergence' of
JH> exterran 'human' activity, and are alleged to be in alliance
JH> with the Pleiadeans (who in turn, according to contactees, have
JH> 'Federation' alliances with the Vegans and the Ummites, etc.).
JH> The Cetians allegedly work with the Pleiadeans and 'other'
JH> societies who have been 'victimized' by the 'Grey' predators
JH> (Evadamic).
Don't these people drive cabs and work in convenience stores? };)
... Heller's Law: The first myth of management is that it exists.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: What bet?
|Date: 03 Mar 96 17:06:17
EID:18cf 206388c0
\_|_|||||||||| __|_
/ |||| |||
J.J. Hitt > Masochistic Maiden : What bet?
JH>> You owe me fifty dollars. Pay up.
MM> Nah, I don't remember setting up a wager with you.
JH> There is no wager.
JH> You owe me fifty dollars, just because.
JH> Don't bother asking questions, or demanding evidence.
JH> Just pay.
Ah, I see that the new church is getting off the ground to really
aggressive fundraising practices. Good. After you have all our money
you won't start demanding cybersex from us, will you? I already gave
at the PTL ministry . . . };)
... Mating call of a redhead: "Look, guys, no henna!"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 120/229
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|From: Robert Berndt
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Founding Father Beliefs
|Date: 05 Mar 96 23:35:08
EID:d9da 2065bc60
MSGID: 1:280/26 6517a3eb
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
On 02/07/96 at 00:20 STYX ALLUM posted to me the following quote, supposedly
from George Washington:
SA>> "The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian Doctrine"
Since he did not post his reference, it is impossible to tell where he got
the quote. He also posted me the following challenge:
SA>> This is not a Christian nation. Don't just take my word for it. Take
George Washington's.
In researching the material, I discovered the following quotes from George
Washington, which I am sure many of you will find very interesting:
It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.
-The Myth of Separation (Aledo, TX: Wallbuilder Press, 1991) pg. 150.
It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the
agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without
the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving
at a Supreme Being.
Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot
exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting
to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being
to refer to. - Faith of Our Founding Fathers (Brentwood, TN: Wolgemuth &
Hyatt, Publishers, Inc., 1987), pg. 104.
Almighty God; We make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United
States in Thy Holy protection; and Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy
Holy protection; and Thou wilt incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate
a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government; and entertain a brotherly
affection and love for one another and for their fellow Citizens of the
United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served
in the Field.
And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all
to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity,
humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the Characteristics of the
Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without a humble imitation of
whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation.
Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen - Maxims of Washington (Mt. Vernon: Mt. Vernon Ladies Associations,
1942), pg 299.
On October 9, 1789, President Washington wrote:
While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion
affords to government its surest support.
- The Writings of Washington (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing
Office, 1932, Vol. XXX) pg. 432.
George Washington had a personal prayer book, consisting of 24 pages in
his field notebook, written in his own handwriting. For the sake of space
I will include only his entry for a Monday morning:
O eternal and everlasting God, I presume to present myself this morning
before Thy Divine Majesty, beseeching Thee to accept of my humble and hearty
thanks... Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate
Blood of the Lamb, and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit... Daily frame
me more and more into the likeness of Thy Son, Jesus Christ, that living
in They fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in Thy appointed time attain
the resurrection of the just unto eternal life. Bless my family, friends
and kindred, and unite us all in praising and glorifying Thee in all our
works. - George Washington, the Christian (Nashville, Tenn.: Abingdon Press,
1919), pg. 23-28.
On May 10, 1789, Washington stated:
If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution
framed by the Convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly
endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical Society, certainly I
would never have placed my signature to it. -The Washington Papers (New
York: Harper and Bros., 1955), pg 410-411.
Styx, the quotes I found are in direct contradiction to the one-liner you
posted me. I did as you asked, and I have done the research and looked
up the quotes for George Washington. But believe me, I also looked up material
for the other persons you quoted from, namely Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson,
James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Abraham Lincoln,
and Benjamin Franklin. There is substantial evidence that they had faith
in God, as well as implemented their beliefs into our governmental foundation.
I will be posting on them as well, just to make sure that your curiosity
doesnt kill you.
Post your sources Styx, or it will be safe to assume that you made it up
the quotes.
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 120/229
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Robert Berndt
|To: All
|Sub: Founding Father Beliefs
|Date: 05 Mar 96 23:41:47
EID:5ca9 2065bd20
MSGID: 1:280/26 6517a3fc
TID: InterEcho 1.16 6E011051
On 02/07/96 at 00:20 STYX ALLUM posted to me the following quote, supposedly
from George Washington:
SA>> "The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian Doctrine"
Since he did not post his reference, it is impossible to tell where he got
the quote. He also posted me the following challenge:
SA>> This is not a Christian nation. Don't just take my word for it. Take
George Washington's.
In researching the material, I discovered the following quotes from George
Washington, which I am sure many of you will find very interesting:
It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.
-The Myth of Separation (Aledo, TX: Wallbuilder Press, 1991) pg. 150.
It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe, without the
agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without
the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving
at a Supreme Being.
Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot
exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason, in attempting
to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being
to refer to. - Faith of Our Founding Fathers (Brentwood, TN: Wolgemuth &
Hyatt, Publishers, Inc., 1987), pg. 104.
Almighty God; We make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United
States in Thy Holy protection; and Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy
Holy protection; and Thou wilt incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate
a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government; and entertain a brotherly
affection and love for one another and for their fellow Citizens of the
United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served
in the Field.
And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all
to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity,
humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the Characteristics of the
Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without a humble imitation of
whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation.
Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen - Maxims of Washington (Mt. Vernon: Mt. Vernon Ladies Associations,
1942), pg 299.
On October 9, 1789, President Washington wrote:
While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion
affords to government its surest support.
- The Writings of Washington (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing
Office, 1932, Vol. XXX) pg. 432.
George Washington had a personal prayer book, consisting of 24 pages in
his field notebook, written in his own handwriting. For the sake of space
I will include only his entry for a Monday morning:
O eternal and everlasting God, I presume to present myself this morning
before Thy Divine Majesty, beseeching Thee to accept of my humble and hearty
thanks... Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate
Blood of the Lamb, and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit... Daily frame
me more and more into the likeness of Thy Son, Jesus Christ, that living
in They fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in Thy appointed time attain
the resurrection of the just unto eternal life. Bless my family, friends
and kindred, and unite us all in praising and glorifying Thee in all our
works. - George Washington, the Christian (Nashville, Tenn.: Abingdon Press,
1919), pg. 23-28.
On May 10, 1789, Washington stated:
If I could have entertained the slightest apprehension that the Constitution
framed by the Convention, where I had the honor to preside, might possibly
endanger the religious rights of any ecclesiastical Society, certainly I
would never have placed my signature to it. -The Washington Papers (New
York: Harper and Bros., 1955), pg 410-411.
Styx, the quotes I found are in direct contradiction to the one-liner you
posted me. I did as you asked, and I have done the research and looked
up the quotes for George Washington. But believe me, I also looked up material
for the other persons you quoted from, namely Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson,
James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, Abraham Lincoln,
and Benjamin Franklin. There is substantial evidence that they had faith
in God, as well as implemented their beliefs into our governmental foundation.
I will be posting on them as well, just to make sure that your curiosity
doesnt kill you.
Post your sources Styx, or it will be safe to assume that you made it up
the quotes.
--- InterEcho 1.16
* Origin: Messages Galore BBS!!, 816-241-6807, Kansas City MO (1:280/26)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 280/26 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Tom Hart
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 05 Mar 96 09:59:35
EID:d152 20654f60
MH@> MH@> THEIST: Obviously, it's either a metaphor or a matter of perspective
MH@> MH@> ATHEIST: SALAD BAR!!!
MH@> TH> Tell me, what is metaphor/perspective or not literal in your bible?
MH@> TH> If you do not know, aren't you guessing? If you do know, how do
you
MH@> TH> know? Have you asked the author?
MH@> You can't know for certain. You can make *educated* guesses, though.
So your God is a guess. Please *_NEVER_* pass your guess as fact.
That would be dishonest wouldn't it? Please (I ask again) what is
not metaphor/perspective or is literal in your bible, and why?
MH@> TH> It would be dishonest to say a part is not literal unless you know
MH@> TH> what the author ment. If religious text are to be reguarded as
factual
MH@> TH> why would you say part of it isn't factual?
MH@> Who says it's all to be regarded as factual? I don't know of
If there is any guess work the "divine inspiration" by an
omniscient being is a joke.
You say you make educated guess(s). I say your educated guess(s) are
wrong. Do you take into account the fact that you cannot show me your
God? (of course if you can show me your God, please do)
I would be happy with you writting your gov't officials saying, God
is a guess, lets not inflict everybody with our religion through "in God
we trust", schhol prayer, etc..
* OLX 2.1 TD * Trinity - a 3 for 1 sale on Deities.
--- VFIDO 7.00.11{52 Days Left}
* Origin: The CooKoo's Nest (1:3814/405)
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|From: Tom Hart
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Ducks?
|Date: 05 Mar 96 09:59:37
EID:c1e7 20654f60
MH@> MM> comes.... I admire those who respect others expression of faith,
and a
MH@> MM> disappointed when I run across those who scream "My way or the
MH@> MM> highway!"
MH@> If you strongly believe something is true, should you be restrained
MH@> from at least discussing it with people? I don't mean legislating
MH@> religious belief -- which can't be really done anyway -- but free
MH@> speech and open debate.
Have you called/written to your gov't reps. yet to tell them you
do not want religion legislated and to repleal the current religious
legislation?
Discussion has to be honest though, wouldn't you agree? And name
calling, like saying someone is "closed-minded", isn't helpful in trying
to communicate.
* OLX 2.1 TD * If Atheism is a religion then health is a disease.
--- VFIDO 7.00.11{52 Days Left}
* Origin: The CooKoo's Nest (1:3814/405)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
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PATH: 3814/405 8 170/400 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Tom Hart
|To: MICHAEL HARDY
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 05 Mar 96 09:59:39
EID:37c1 20654f60
MH@> OK, I'll rephrase.
MH@> The resurrection of Jesus must have really happened, because people
who
MH@> lived at the same time and in the same place knew it happened. And
MH@> anyone with an IQ over 20 -- which probably leaves you out, I know
--
Is this the Christian way to respond to someone? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You know I'm often curious why an appology to the person you have
insulted isn't preeached at church. Just say your sorry to God and
everything is ok.
MH@> realizes that people who live at the time and place an event happens
MH@> know more about it than people 1,900+ years later thousands of miles
MH@> away.
There was MUCH people of 1,900+ years ago did not understand, but
thought they did.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Revelation 21:8 Heaven = 525C,Hell = 445C Applied Optics
--- VFIDO 7.00.11{52 Days Left}
* Origin: The CooKoo's Nest (1:3814/405)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 941 120/229
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|From: Aaron Boyden
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 06 Mar 96 00:27:00
EID:10ce aa007400
MSGID: 1:206/2720 2100430c
REPLY: 1:207/212 68f892a3
PID: FM 2.2c.mL OC0000B3
> AM> Many who comment on this echo, don't just disbelieve in God, but
> AM> loathe the God they claim they don't believe in.
> Consider it along the lines of "I wouldn't worship
> that guy even if he
> was shown to exist."
A noble sentiment, to be sure, but even though it would surely be home to
all the truly interesting people, I think I'd take almost any steps to avoid
hell if I had any reason to think it existed. That does, I suppose, assume
I could stay sane if confronted with the existence of the hopelessly absurd
universe Christianity describes; drop that assumption, and I can of course
no longer predict what I'd do. I'm very glad this is all completely hypothetical,
though.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.1
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:15:13
EID:3c93 206499e0
And lo, Terry did whine incessantly about Waco Rememberance.1 to Norbert!
NS> Hey, the military isn't paid to think. That doesn't excuse
NS> them, but get a clue.
TL> Get a clue about the Nuremberg trials. Now show us how much you know.
NS> Your point of this being . . . ??? Are you somehow
NS> equivocating less than a thousand Branch Davidians with
NS> almost 6 million jews?
TL> ROTFLMAO!!!!!! Well, I asked you to show us how much you know and
TL> you obliged. Wahahahahaahah!!!!!!!!!!!
NS> You obviously (now that I see this, your response note)
NS> intended for this [to] refer to the "I was following orders"
NS> part of said Nuremburg Trials.
TL> Halalulya!!! He acknowledges a point made several posts ago. Yer
TL> right on top of things, arn't you.
c/Halalulya/Halleluja
c/Yer/Your
c/arn't/aren't
Ah Terry, how you rave! I asked for clarification and you frothed
at the mouth, bit up the rug a bit, and spewed all over the place.
I have no idea what you're so afraid of, but perhaps it would be
better to start taking your medications again.
NS> Yet you didn't make it clear, thereby completing a leap in
NS> logic that was clear to only you.
TL> and anyone who dosn't have a vacuum inserted where their brain is
TL> supposed to be.
c/and/And
c/dosn't/doesn't
I would guess you to be the expert on said vacuum instead of a
brain, then. Or perhaps the poster-child?
NS> Unless you expected me to read your mind?
TL> Only text reading by anyone with a reasonable background knowledge of
TL> the world; something you were lacking, evidently.
I forgot, and I apologize. I should have realized that we first
have to establish that you have a brain before I can blithely ask
if you expected me to read it. This obviously caused you much
consternation. And, silly me, since you mentioned a trial for
individuals at Waco in the same electronic breath as the Nuremberg
Trials, I just assumed you were making a connection. I should have
thought harder and realized that you might be unable to actually
make such a connection, and that the act of trying to comprehend
this would give you seizures of the type we've seen here. You're
`special' to all of us here, Terry, and we wouldn't hurt you for
the world.
NS> Yet, obviously, you are equating Waco with Nazi
NS> Germany in your statement, above,
TL> Not me. If you are attempting to 'read my mind,' you missed.
Apparently. Note you didn't answer either the question about were
you making the connection or the question about if you wanted me to
read your mind. But that's okay, you've had a lot to think about;
building up a decent froth at the unfairness of it all, learning to
tie your shoes, etc. And, its almost time for Wolpner, isn't it?
I would assume, because I missed, that either I'm not good at mind
reading, or there was no receiver for me to hook up with. But
don't worry your head about that. You have enough to do with
ignoring the fact that you did make the connection in the first
place (though we all admit it was an accident, so don't get nervous
. . . 1,000 monkeys with typewriters might have made such a mistake,
given sufficiently long) AND that you continue to ignore my
subsequent questions. Don't fret about it. Just get better.
NS> even if that wasn't your intention.
TL> You DID read my mind.
Ah, you didn't intend to make the connection. And thusly, when I
asked you, you could have just said no, you didn't intend to make
that connection. But it was good aerobic exercise to rant at the
computer a bit too, I imagine.
NS> How can you justify such a comparrison?
TL> Since that's not a comparison I made and I can't 'read your mind,'
TL> you'll have to just outright tell us how YOU 'make such a comparison.'
I? You scamp! `I' didn't first mention the two of them together.
You did.
(Continued Next Post)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.2
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:15:56
EID:3dd3 206499e0
(Continued From Previous Post)
NS> Are you naturally clueless, or did you have to work for this
NS> level of enlightenment?
TL> tediously explains.... Nueremburg was the site of the Nazi war crimes
NS> Wouldn't need to make tedious explanations if had been clear
NS> from the start . . .
TL> Hey, some people with shit for brains are clueless even when you hand
TL> them the clue.
And I guess you would know this better than most, right?
TL> trials and the reference is not intended to be 'equivocating less than
TL> a thousand Branch Davidians with almost 6 million Jews.' I am
TL> referring to a commn defense attempted by Nazis at these trials, which
TL> was 'I was just following orders.'
NS> I know all about this. But thanx for reminding me.
TL> It didn't exonerate them anymore than it exonerates the govt
TL> agents who followed orders to run tanks thru a residence
TL> occupied by men, women and children.
NS> So you doubt that the agents were in actuality operating to
NS> try to save lives?
TL> Drive tank thru residence occupied with kids to SAVE the kids thus
TL> causing some of said kids to die that way?
c/thru/through
Ah, you're still troubled, I can tell. I asked if you thought that
the agents were trying to save lives by their actions. I know you
get confused by too many stimuli, so let me say that you can answer
this either yes or no, your choice. Nothing else is required.
TL> You're right, I'm 'clueless' as to how those 'agents were in actuality
TL> operating to try to save lives.'
I don't doubt it. And that wasn't exactly what I asked, was it? I
asked:
NS> So you doubt that the agents were in actuality operating to
NS> try to save lives?
Again, a simple yes or no question totally ignored. I guess you need
a nap, eh?
TL> If I want to 'save' a kid, it would just never occur to me to
TL> drive a tank thru that kids home with the kid still IN the home.
c/kids/kid's
Nor would it to me. I merely asked you what _you_ thought were the
feelings/rationales of the drivers that went in with the tanks.
You could even give us what you thought the rationales were for
those who ordered the tanks to go in. I'm more than sure you have
opinions on this.
BTW, why haven't you supplied the other answers I asked you,
answers very pertinent to this discussion: who were the children
killed by the tanks? And, who drove those tanks (I.e., who killed
the children by driving the tanks over them) and how many children
were killed? You go to great effort to try to appear to know all
of this, these should be simple statistics to give to us. But I
guess you've been busy counting toothpicks or something, eh?
Did the tanks go through the house? According to your quote of the
juror, the tanks penetrated the house, but it didn't mention that
the tanks went complete through the house.
NS> And another thing, do you have any idea if the agents there
NS> were operating within the parameters of the rules for such a
NS> confrontation or not?
TL> There are no Constitutionally allowed 'rules' that include driving a
TL> tank thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
I didn't mention the Constitution. I know this is all happening
really really fast for you, Terry, so I'll attempt to type slower.
Were the agents operating within _any_ rules for the encounter
(Constitutional or otherwise), do you know? Its okay to say you
don't know if you don't. No one's going to jeer at you.
(Continued On Next Post)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.3
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:16:34
EID:fd12 20649a00
(Continued From Previous Post)
NS> And, what you ignore most of all is that it was David Koresh
NS> that was the cause of all of this.
TL> Oh yes, I forgot. His spirit wafted out of the window and into the
TL> tank and then drove the tank thru the residence. I guess us
TL> 'clueless' ones have trouble envisioning that.
NS> He brainwashed these people, he held them captive, he raped
NS> and molested them, he emperiled them, he lead directly to many
NS> of their deaths. Yet you run away from this point constant,
TL> Let me spell this out H E IS D E A D and H E N E V E R W O R K
E
TL> D FOR US!!! You are obsessing on a dead white guy; he can't hurt
TL> anyone; GET IT.
I know he's dead, Terry. Everyone knows that he is dead. But he
_IS_ directly responsible for those people being held hostage
there, is he not? Yet you ignore him in your vitriolic attacks.
And its true, he can't hurt anyone anymore (unless someone drops
his urn on their toe or something, I suppose) BUT he DID hurt a lot
of those people, caused the death of a great many of them, and
thusly is worthwhile to include in the conversation.
NS> somehow thinking that it was the Government workers, aka tank
NS> drivers, who were at fault, when they were clearly following
NS> the law of the country.
TL> What 'country' do you live in?
I don't live in a 'country', I live in a country called the USA, where
people are assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. And you? Until
you can answer my question above about if the officers were following
any rules (Constitutional or otherwise) or procedures in regard to
the conflict, you can't unilaterally state that they were not
following the law of the land. Please note: the law of the land
constitutes many things: the Constitution on down to local
ordinances, etc.
TL> There is NO United States Constitutional 'law' that allows govt agents
TL> to drive a tank thru a residence occupied by men, women and children,
TL> thus causing some of the kids to die.
Again, I didn't limit it to Constitutional law. Please answer the
question: and its okay to say you don't know. And again, tell us
how many kids were killed by tanks, and who the tank drivers were
that killed them, etc. Otherwise, its just hearsay on your part.
NS> If the tank drivers had died in the confrontation, who would
NS> you blame
TL> The tank drivers for following orders they had no business following
TL> and their commanders who gave them unconstitutional orders.
Again, I made no mention of Constitutionality in regards to the
orders or the law of the land. You say you would blame the tank
drivers and their commanders . . . yet all you've done up to now is
yell about the tank drivers. Why aren't you going after the
commanders?
TL> Should the 'tank' drivers be exempted from manslaughter charges
TL> because they 'were just following orders?'
c/exempted/exempt
Not knowing everything about the case, I have no idea. As soon as
you supply the information I have been repeatedly asking you for, I
will be better informed and in a better position to make such a
decision. I would hope that you could appreciate that I would only
want to make an informed decision. Why don't you file a class action
suit or press charges if it chews at you so much? You're certainly
within your right to do so as, presumably, a citizen of this country.
(Continued On Next Post)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.4
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:17:09
EID:3f53 20649a20
(Continued From Previous Post)
NS> Manslaughter implies conscious volition. How did the tank
NS> drivers know what was on the other side of the walls?
TL> Yeah, that's it. The tank drivers didn't know that anyone was IN the
TL> residence that was on TV for the 51 day siege. Hahahahhahahahah!!!!
NS> You missed the point. I'm absolutely positive that no tank
NS> driver said to himself, let's run this through the wall and
NS> kill people.
TL> I agree; then the charge would be murder instead of manslaughter.
NS> Good. At least we agree that they probably didn't intend
NS> to kill those people.
NS> I _am_ curious, though . . . why do you insist on going
NS> after the keepers of peace that operated within the law in
NS> a dangerous encounter who were clearly trying to save lives,
TL> Driving tanks thru a residence occupied by men, women and children is
TL> neither peaceful nor legal.
Please give us all the laws that cite it as illegal. BTW, I didn't
say that it was peaceful, I referred to the officers as
peace-keepers. Surely, living in Texas as you do with the Texas
Rangers, etc., you can recognize that title?
TL> Can you cite a Constitutional law that allows that?
Again, you limit it by Constitutional law. Can you cite a
Constitutional law that forbids driving a tank through a building?
Rather than limiting it, Terry, why don't you give me the
information I repeatedly ask you for?
NS> and yet ignore or exonerate those who caused all
NS> this: David Koresh, etc., of the Branch Davidians?
TL> I havn't ignored him, I told you several times, he's dead.
I know he's dead Terry. Why, do you still see him around?
TL> He can't do anything to anyone anymore and we can't do anything
TL> to him anymore. GET IT?
Yet you post as though he was not at fault at all. I'm not the
only one seeing this, it is clear from how others are posting
to you that they see the same thing. How can you expect anyone to
admit blame, etc., when we don't start denoting blame at the very
root: David Koresh?
TL> However, govt agents, our employees, who killed children during the
TL> tank assault are STILL on the public payroll. THEY are our
TL> responsibility.
c/govt/government
Perhaps you are right. However, I still await the statistics I've
asked you for before passing any judgment myself.
NS> You remind me of DiNiro in Apocalypse Now: "Ah, I love the
NS> smell of napalm in the morning . . . it smells like . . .
NS> victory . . ."
TL> uhhh..... Rong Robert. You're quoting Duval not DiNiro. Are you this
TL> accurate about the rest of your stuff?
NS> Well, I made a mistake. And I can admit it. I can also
NS> spell the word 'wrong'. So I missed a bit of trivia in
NS> Popular Culture;
TL> along with an understanding of intentional humor.
c/along/Along
So you intentionally misspell words just to be funny? Usually,
when I'm trying to be funny in this sort of media, I apply an
emoticon to clue people in, thusly: };) Of course, you may only be
saying it was intentional now. And I could say I intentionally
misquoted. And we'd all have a good laugh, eh? }:)
NS> And idiots use all of the above to justify the
NS> bombing at Oklahoma City, etc.
TL> Hey, ANOTHER cool distraction! You can remain in denial about the
TL> part WE are responsible for; the govt agents that work for US.
NS> Denial of what?
TL> The need to bring govt agents to justice for driving tanks thru
TL> a residence occupied by men, women and children, thus causing
TL> some of the kids to die.
I don't deny it, if children were indeed killed and the agents were
clearly working outside of applicable rules and regulations for
such an encounter. You haven't supplied the information about
that, though . . . have you? And you probably won't either.
(Continued On Next Post)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.5
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:17:39
EID:ff92 20649a20
(Continued From Previous Post)
NS> Manslaughter implies conscious volition. How did the tank
NS> drivers know what was on the other side of the walls?
TL> Yeah, that's it. The tank drivers didn't know that anyone was IN the
TL> residence that was on TV for the 51 day siege. Hahahahhahahahah!!!!
NS> You missed the point. I'm absolutely positive that no tank
NS> driver said to himself, let's run this through the wall and
NS> kill people.
TL> I agree; then the charge would be murder instead of manslaughter.
NS> Good. At least we agree that they probably didn't intend
NS> to kill those people.
NS> I _am_ curious, though . . . why do you insist on going
NS> after the keepers of peace that operated within the law in
NS> a dangerous encounter who were clearly trying to save lives,
TL> Driving tanks thru a residence occupied by men, women and children is
TL> neither peaceful nor legal.
Please give us all the laws that cite it as illegal. BTW, I didn't
say that it was peaceful, I referred to the officers as
peace-keepers. Surely, living in Texas as you do with the Texas
Rangers, etc., you can recognize that title?
TL> Can you cite a Constitutional law that allows that?
Again, you limit it by Constitutional law. Can you cite a
Constitutional law that forbids driving a tank through a building?
Rather than limiting it, Terry, why don't you give me the
information I repeatedly ask you for?
NS> and yet ignore or exonerate those who caused all
NS> this: David Koresh, etc., of the Branch Davidians?
TL> I havn't ignored him, I told you several times, he's dead.
I know he's dead Terry. Why, do you still see him around?
TL> He can't do anything to anyone anymore and we can't do anything
TL> to him anymore. GET IT?
Yet you post as though he was not at fault at all. I'm not the
only one seeing this, it is clear from how others are posting
to you that they see the same thing. How can you expect anyone to
admit blame, etc., when we don't start denoting blame at the very
root: David Koresh?
TL> However, govt agents, our employees, who killed children during the
TL> tank assault are STILL on the public payroll. THEY are our
TL> responsibility.
c/govt/government
Perhaps you are right. However, I still await the statistics I've
asked you for before passing any judgment myself.
NS> You remind me of DiNiro in Apocalypse Now: "Ah, I love the
NS> smell of napalm in the morning . . . it smells like . . .
NS> victory . . ."
TL> uhhh..... Rong Robert. You're quoting Duval not DiNiro. Are you this
TL> accurate about the rest of your stuff?
NS> Well, I made a mistake. And I can admit it. I can also
NS> spell the word 'wrong'. So I missed a bit of trivia in
NS> Popular Culture;
TL> along with an understanding of intentional humor.
c/along/Along
So you intentionally misspell words just to be funny? Usually,
when I'm trying to be funny in this sort of media, I apply an
emoticon to clue people in, thusly: };) Of course, you may only be
saying it was intentional now. And I could say I intentionally
misquoted. And we'd all have a good laugh, eh? }:)
NS> And idiots use all of the above to justify the
NS> bombing at Oklahoma City, etc.
TL> Hey, ANOTHER cool distraction! You can remain in denial about the
TL> part WE are responsible for; the govt agents that work for US.
NS> Denial of what?
TL> The need to bring govt agents to justice for driving tanks thru
TL> a residence occupied by men, women and children, thus causing
TL> some of the kids to die.
I don't deny it, if children were indeed killed and the agents were
clearly working outside of applicable rules and regulations for
such an encounter. You haven't supplied the information about
that, though . . . have you? And you probably won't either.
(Continued On Next Post)
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.6
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:18:34
EID:fed2 20649a40
(Continued From Previous Post)
TL> Since this has been said often and recently, is there something
TL> wrong with your feed; did you not read those posts?
I read every post in HOLYSMOKE that comes into the BBS I get it
from, and have been reading them for the past two months. And I have
never seen this from you. But I've been cognizant of the fact that
I've not seen certain posts, etc. It's entirely possible there's
been some traffic lost in the ether of the FIDO nets. I know one
other poster has asked you similar questions, inclining me to
believe that some mail is getting lost. Its entirely possible,
since the BBS I post from only keeps 150 messages in HOLYSMOKE at a
time, that some may be scrolling off, too, before I can get to
them. However, I note from Fredric Rice's post that he has had the
same problem in getting a similar answer from you, so maybe the
FIDO problems are more far-ranging. Or maybe you didn't post the
answer you claim to have posted. I'm willing to believe that the
FIDO feed is part of the problem, though.
TL> Or are you just engaging in slanderous hatemongering?
slander (slan'duhr) --noun
A false and malicious statement or report that
damages the reputation or well-being of another.
--verb
To utter slander (about).
[< Gk. skandalon, trap]
--slan'derer noun
--slan'derous adjective
--slan'derously adverb
Who have I slandered? I have slandered no one. Have I
hate-mongered? Not in any instance I'm aware of. Yet I would
accuse you of doing so.
TL> Your prejudices ought to be strong enough to spew forth a judgement
TL> about someone you don't know, right?
NS> Why do you assume that I'm prejudicial about you, when I
NS> may just be prejudicial against all extremists, elitists,
NS> etc.?
TL> Gosh, and I thought it was just me you were prejudiced. Now you
TL> say you're prejudiced against a whole bunch of people you don't
TL> know. Excuuuuse me.
c/you were prejudiced./you were prejudiced about.
c/Excuuuuse/Excuse
Now you're a liar. I said:
NS> Why do you assume that I'm prejudicial about you, when I
NS> MAY just be prejudicial against all extremists, elitists,
NS> etc.?
. . . in other words, since your reading ability is impaired, I
asked why you ASSUMED that I was prejudiced against you when I
could be prejudiced against others instead. I know you feel
persecuted, and I don't want you to cry, but you're lying about
what I said. Note the word `may'.
NS> But, I should note: YOUR prejudices are strong
NS> enough for you to spew forth a judgment about someone you
NS> don't know.
TL> Unlike you, I'm making judgements about the actual stuff you
TL> post. GET IT?
Oh, I didn't say you were spewing judgment against me. You're
spewing judgment against the officers at Waco. Aren't you? And
further, you're spewing the prejudicial statement against them and
you don't even know them, do you? Yet you accuse me of prejudice.
Are you intentionally oblivious?
But I will take it as a given that you're prejudicial against me,
for you admit it above. So you have a double standard.
Interesting.
NS> My information base is fine. I suppose you meant my narrow
NS> mind, or some such thing.
TL> Express it anyway you like. I defend freedom of expression.
Yet you would limit mine. How droll. You're just a hypocrite,
aren't you?
(Continued From Previous Post)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.7
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:19:23
EID:3e13 20649a60
(Continued from previous post)
NS> Need I remind you that YOU equated Waco with WWII, not I.
TL> You mistakenly thougt I made that equation when I refered to
TL> the failed Nuremburg war crimes defence of 'I was just
TL> following orders.'
c/thougt/thought
c/refered/referred
c/Nuremburg/Nuremberg
And you had plenty of space and time to clear that up, since you
had not made it clear, but found instead that you needed to attempt
to shout me down. I still don't know what you were afraid of,
Terry.
TL> Do you always have this much trouble parsing sentences and
TL> processing concepts?
I always ask for clarification of those who can't marshall their
thoughts and reasoning abilities enough to make clear statements.
If you didn't assume that everyone knew what you meant when you
posted it, you wouldn't have those problems.
(Continued on next post)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.8
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:19:56
EID:3a53 20649a60
(Continued from previous post)
Norbert Sykes wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
NS> Terry Liberty-Parker > Fredric Rice : Waco Web Site
TL> Fredric Rice wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
> For those of you who have access to the InterNet World Wide Web:
> http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~cwalker/waco/waco.html
> A Web site about the American tragedy of Waco.
FR> Neat! Does it also include your friends who blew up the
FR> federal building in Oklahoma?
TL> Hang on to your hatemongering prejudice, Fred. It's apparently the
TL> only thing your being comforted by these days.
NS> Why didn't you answer him? Why are you running away from
NS> the question? What are you afraid of?
TL> I answered him several times. No Waco protestor I know believes
TL> that taking more innocent life is a way to protest the taking of
TL> innocent life at Waco.
Well, take my word for it that I've only seen this on this
occasion.
TL> Bigots continue to slander with lies in the hopes that someone
TL> new to a thread may be taking in by their prejudicial
TL> hatemongering.
c/taking/taken
c/hatemongering/hate mongering/or/hate-mongering
Bigots? Slander? Prejudicial hatemongering? Are these the only
words you know? None of these has been established, you just shout
them out when cornered.
NS> JJ posts from Houston, according the to origin line I see
NS> on his posts. You post from Austin. Is there that much a
NS> difference in weather between the two of you?
TL> Yes, quit a bit. Texas is a big state with a lot of diversity.
I knew it was the second largest state in the Union, and assumed
that it had diversity. I also thought (perhaps from watching
Lonesome Dove too much) that it was mostly flat, especially the
stretch between Houston and Austin. Thusly my question about the
weather.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Norbert Sykes wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
NS> Terry Liberty-Parker > Dan Ceppa : Waco Rememberance
> Dan Ceppa wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-parker:
> On 02-28-96 13:26, Terry Liberty-parker got back to David Worrell
DW> Not this shit *again*. Here I was thinking you might have
DW> actually approached human status.
TL> Gee, if your prejudice makes you this uncomfortable, GET OVER IT.
DW> I guess we all make mistakes.
TL> Only when being sub-human.
DC> You haven't risen to even that level.
TL> Ah, the prejudiced sphincter arises again.
NS> Firstly, this clearly marks you as prejudicial.
TL> If you want RATIONAL people to agree with you, you actually have
TL> to PRESENT the rationale for your otherwise UNFOUNDED assertion.
TL> GET IT?
Ah, but I'm not talking to a rational person, I'm talking to you,
Terry. You assume that anyone that complains is prejudiced. With
no clear connection there, the only thing that can be implied is
that your are, yourself, prejudicial. I understand most people are
prejudicial in some way or another, so no reason to flame or get
all teary-eyed. As for having anyone agree with me: why would I
want that? I actually don't care. Your assertion is unfounded
unless you can actually show how Dan Ceppa, Fredric Rice, or I are
really prejudicial when we question you or complain. The burden of
proof's on you, since you make the allegation.
NS> Secondly, if you wee referring to the anal sphincter, it is
NS> physically incapable of 'arising'.
TL> You are clearly unaware of the head in the sand posture assumed
TL> by the poster.
I assumed as much by the garbled speech, but steadfastly refused to
actually look at you. And your statement above is yet ANOTHER
unfounded assertion. Can you prove it?
(Continued On Next Post)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance.9
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:20:37
EID:fa92 20649a80
(Continued From Previous Post)
Ä Area: National Religious Debate Echo ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Msg#: 65 Rec'd Date: 04 Mar 96 14:47:25
From: Terry Liberty-Parker Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Norbert Sykes Mark:
Subj: Waco Rememberance
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Norbert Sykes wrote in a message to Jim Germiquet:
NS> Jim Germiquet > Norbert Sykes : Waco Rememberance
TL> Many have distracted themselves from the need for justice by obsessing
TL> on child abuse allegations aimed at Branch Davidian leader, David
TL> Koresh. He is dead, and can no longer harm anyone. But, govt agents
TL> who followed orders to drive tanks thru a residence occupied with men,
TL> women and children, are still at large.
NS> The idea still hasn't crawled into your skull and died yet that
NS> perhaps Koresh was the one responsible for these deaths?
JG> I agree, if the officials went to the farm with a warrant and the
JG> occupants denied entry or resisted arrest, THEY are responsible
JG> for the outcome.
TL> THEY drove the tanks thru their own residence?
So here we see Terry replying to me about a post of Jim Germiquet.
Don't you have a clue, Terry, that by replying to me instead of to
Jim, you won't get your question answered? As HIM what he meant,
not me!
NS> Especially if the people were there at the whim of a madman
NS> who raped them, abused them, and held them hostage.
TL> And this, to you, makes it ok to drive tanks thru their residence
TL> while occupied by men, women and children.
TL> Hahahahahahahahahahhaah!!!!
c/thru/through
c/ok/okay
Again, an unfounded assumption on your part, with the emphasis on
ASS.
TL> Please explain Norbert/logic to us!
c/ Norbert/logic /Norbert Logic
I believe that one must back one's claims up with evidence.
(You have not done this, just keep tossing out same old quote
from some juror.)
If one claims that children were killed, one has to cite who they
were and how old they were.
(You haven't done this either.)
If one claims they were killed a certain way, one has to prove that.
(You have not done this either.)
If one claims that certain people did the killing, then one has to
prove that as well.
(You have not done this either.)
I believe just making ad hoc statements without proof in order to
stir up public opinion against anyone is hate-mongering.
(Note your behavior.)
I further believe that the inability to let people question one's
assertions indicates how shaky they actually are.
(Note your respond to decent questions with derision,
name-calling, avoidance, etc.)
I believe that anyone who answers a legitimate question with hate
rhetoric is a liar and a coward.
(. . . or unable to answer the question.)
NS> It's unfortunate that innocents died, but the US Government was
NS> not the one that put those people at risk.
TL> Let's see, driving tanks thru a residence occupied by men, women
TL> and children does NOT put the residents 'at risk.'
It doesn't? Terry, I know that you're not in touch with consential
reality where you are, but can you at least see it?
TL> Hahahahhaahhahahaha!!!!
I still think the medications would be a good idea.
TL> Please explain Norbert/logic to us!
I'm glad to see that I've given you yet another short phrase to add
to your vocabulary. The others were starting to wear out, but you
can probably get six-months of usage out of this one before it
starts to wear. Can you explain Terry Logic for us?
... URA redneck if your family tree does not branch.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: David Johnston
|Sub: Angels Or Demons???
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:24:16
EID:c448 20649b00
And lo, David did whine incessantly about Angels Or Demons??? to Anthony!
-> The sons of God were the descendants of Adam. Adam was the son of
-> God, the only son of God when he was formed (Luke 3:38). God's law
-> of reproduction states that everything brings forth of its own kind
-> (Genesis 1:11). So the sons of God were the descendants of Adam:
-> flesh and blood. The daughters of men were the descendents of Cain:
-> flesh and blood but unrelated to Adam because their father was the
-> Serpent, a man-like creature Satan inspired, and who seduced Eve
-> before Adam knew her as a husband knows his wife.
DJ> The serpent was Adam's sexual member. We are never told, even by
DJ> implication, that Adam was not Cain's father.
DJ> Oh, and since Eve was Adam's clade, anyone who was her offspring was
DJ> related to Adam.
Clade? Isn't that what you spray around the room to make it smell
better? };)
... "Geez... have you ever seen so many frigging Orcs? Guys? Guys?"
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:32:25
EID:60ea 20649c00
And lo, Terry did whine incessantly about Waco Rememberance to Jim!
TL> Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Norbert Sykes:
JG>
TL> Many have distracted themselves from the need for justice by obsessing
TL> on child abuse allegations aimed at Branch Davidian leader, David
TL> Koresh. He is dead, and can no longer harm anyone. But, govt agents
TL> who followed orders to drive tanks thru a residence occupied with men,
TL> women and children, are still at large.
NS> The idea still hasn't crawled into your skull and died yet that
NS> perhaps Koresh was the one responsible for these deaths?
TL> Still obsessing on the dead white guy?
Still obsessing on dead people yourself, Terry. And I'll always
miss John Lennon . . .
NS> And idiots use all of the above to justify the bombing at
NS> Oklahoma City, etc.
TL> Since this poster has already been informed that none of the Waco
TL> protestors he is addressing believe that the taking of innocent life
TL> can be protested by taking more innocent life, he is spewing
TL> prejudicial hatemongering.
This is a lie. At the time of my post, I had not been so informed.
What about you spewing prejudicial hate-mongering?
JG> I agree, if the officials went to the farm with a warrant
JG> and the occupants denied entry or resisted arrest, THEY are
JG> responsible for the outcome.
TL> Since there is nothing that Branch Davidians did that could justify
TL> running tanks thru their residence occupied by men, women and
TL> children, and they didn't drive the tanks thru their own home, it
TL> appears that our employees are responsible for that part.
TL> You say otherwise? Please explain Germiquet logic to us.
You see, Jim? He ignores the root of the problem.
... URA redneck if "SAY NO TO CRACK" reminds you to pull your pants up.
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Cult Christianity
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:35:34
EID:7428 20649c60
And lo, Karl did whine incessantly about Re: Cult Christianity to O.j.!
OS> > SA> Gracious welcome, Megan! It's not often that we have participants
OS> > SA> joining us from Japan.
OS> > About as rare as a black poster on Holysmoke, eh?
OS>fuck off whitey...
KS> Damn, O.J.....that tape you told me to burn...? I think I left
KS> it on the counter at the Post Office...
KS> Sorry 'bout that...
You didn't tell him about the copies we made to sell, did you? Oh!
Nevermind! };)
... *BLAM!* *BLAM!* Make peck'ular patterns in my wheat field, will ya?!
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|From: Ross Catto
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 29 Feb 96 13:44:00
EID:cdad 205d6d80
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 501f7e96
-> I see where Jesus broke RABINIC INTERPRETATION and TRADITION
-> on several occassions,
-> but where did He clearly break the OT law?
---
I'm fairly certain you won't agree with me on these, but I'm replying
online, from memory.
First, of course, was working on the sabbath. The fact that he
was doing good, or the disciples were hungry is inconsequential to
the law. Even gathering firewood, to warm a freezing family, was
punishable by death.
His association with sinners and non-Jews, even sharing meals
with them was also against the law. Remember, even Peter, even
after 3 visions, later refused to eat with Gentiles until rebuked
by Paul.
I'm sure there are other cases, but they've slipped my mind now.
Though Jesus certainly upheld the law, his teachings were a radical
departure from it, at least from the spirit of it.
For instance, the last supper differed on many points from the
jewish passover meal.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0348
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|From: Ross Catto
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 01 Mar 96 08:48:00
EID:cdad 20614600
MSGID: 1:229/15@fidonet.org 28b802ff
--> ...but where did He break the OT law?
---
I thought of another example. The eating of meat without the
blood, which is impossible.
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0348
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 04 Mar 96 21:51:00
EID:1376 2064ae60
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 313b6632
REPLY: 1:116/19 04869DE6
-=| On 01 Mar 96 08:06, Al Schroeder said: |=-
AS> YAAAAAYYYYY!!!!
DO>> Good to see you in the first person, unquoted...
AS> It WAS rather like being the Invisible Man...
First you butcher Micheal, then Oosterman(n). My searchie thing missed
this as
a note to me. Shape up!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: fred
|Date: 04 Mar 96 21:58:01
EID:1800 2064af40
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 313b679e
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 8935438E
-=| On 02 Mar 96 20:40, Michael Hardy said: |=-
DO>> Said what? :P BTW, thanks for the chat.
MH> You're quite welcome. If you like the chat, I can also send you a
MH> dhog. :)
Some type of 'Bama critter? ;)
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: seedy CD
|Date: 04 Mar 96 22:02:02
EID:f3f3 2064b040
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 313b68e1
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31384a34
-=| On 02 Mar 96 13:16, David Worrell said: |=-
DW> Hmmm... Roosterwoman uses the same ISP as Asmodoodoo. I leave the
DW> conclusion up to my readers.
DW> :-)
I conclude that David Whore-hell (juvenile, ain't it?) is a moron, and that
whoever it is of which you speak and I live in the same state. What was
your supposition?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: Dave Oosterman
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Mar 96 22:04:03
EID:2842 2064b080
MSGID: 1:228/45.2 313b6918
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 631cd44c
-=| On 02 Mar 96 14:11, Martin Goldberg said: |=-
MG> My adice to you is just what you gave to Staal.....grow up. I say
MG> this because this post fits most of your previous ones showing the
MG> maturity of a three year old.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Moot Point (Grandville, MI) (1:228/45.2)
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|From: John Oliver
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: fof update, staal
|Date: 05 Mar 96 7:38:00
EID:3f93 20653cc0
MSGID: 1:246/148@fidonet 20874a1b
REPLY: 1:246/15 31351150
PID: QE 2.80 Zeta 1+ & FM 2.12.SW UNREG
SW> Well if you dont belive in the Bible than how can you judge what is
SW> moral or not? What would you base your ethics on? The Bible declares
SW> God's laws and tells us that when we break them-we sin. God established
SW> them, so that we would have a set of moral standards to live by and
that
SW> we would know God and how to live a moral life.
Again Morals and Morality have been around far longer than the Christian
faith, and predates Judaism as well. To argue otherwise is to deny history
which is to deny the truth, which is to be immoral. Since you are so adamant
on being so uprightious, do you eat pork, wear clothes with different fibers,
eat seafood such as shrimp???? If so you sinning according to what you are
saying.
> JO> Aids and venereal disease are not sicknesses, they are as you said,
> JO> disease's. Disease, and the common cold and the rest are afflictions
> JO> that affect all animals on our Earth, they are not the work of some
> JO> demon or a God.
> JO>
SW> Now in the Bible, Jesus cast out demons of infirmities and sickness.
Im
SW> not saying every single disease that happens is from the devil, but
that
SW> the devil is a masquerader. The devils power is in his lie.
Oh what a excuse! The devil's only power over humanity is when "WE" willing
intend and do wrong. We are not forced to do nothing but to decide for ourselves.
I believe in God, but not in one that says do this or else, that's a ultimatum.
God says this is what I want you to do, but the decision is yours to make.
The same with Satan is he really truly exists.
> JO> To claim otherwise, is to state that as a human being we are
> JO> vunerable and responsible for many of the ills that has happened
to
> JO> us throughout time. The bad things we blame Satan or the Devil, when
> JO> good things happen will thank God for giving us strenght for
> JO> overcoming adversity. I am a religious person myself, but I do not
> JO> ascribe to the belief that Satan must exit so that we do good. Many
> JO> of the really evil things that have been committed such as the
> JO> Holocost, was done by God fearing men who believed they were doing
> JO> Gods will. Pretty hard to accept isn't it.
SW> Mankind fell into sin when Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Now, what God
SW> decided to do was rescue man from the clutches of sin. So God had to
SW> establish a Law first. (A code of ethics of how to live and a morally
SW> based Law that was not to be broken). Before we had the Law, no one
had
SW> a standard of living to stand and live by, so since we didnt have one,
SW> God couldnt have rescued us. So, He gave us the Law. But it wasnt
SW> complete yet. Now since we have the Law, and a moral code of conduct,
SW> God sent Christ to die for us to remove sin from us once and for
SW> all(Everthing contrary to the Law was sin). So becuase of Christ's
SW> sacrifice, God has completed His plan to save sinfull nan from the
SW> clutches of the devil. But in order to get the gift that God provided
SW> you have to be willing to recieve it and that means recieving Christ
as
SW> Your saviour and Lord.
Law and ethics are not the same and to presumme that they are is to insult
ethics. There has always been two sides of interpretation when it comes
to religious matters the Lawmakers on one side, the Philosophers on the
other. Now both have good points, but their approach is not exactly the
same. Ethics has nothing to do with religion exclusively and can be applied
to medicine or to the practice of Law (which has no ethics IMO),etc.
Sorry Steve you haven't convinced me of anything except that I'm correct.
---
* Origin: [ Pink Triangle ] Silence = Death /\ (519)-255-7228 (1:246/148)
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|From: God
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Heavenly Father
|Date: 05 Mar 96 10:29:00
EID:33fe 206553a0
MSGID: 1:363/309 56dab520
PID: RA 2.02 8069
> God is a spirit. The creator of all things, and the
> father of
> all humanity by creation.
please dont remind me of my biggest fuckup...
> John 4:24
> God a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
> in
> spirit and in truth.
the only spirit i want is a bottle of crown royal; got one?
> He is the first and the last, and besides him there is no
> God.
well my next door neighbor allah can be quite a pain in the ass...
> Look to God!
> Brad
well at least let me put a robe on first...
---
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: Robert Pappas
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Missing Child Alert - Satan
|Date: 05 Mar 96 10:30:00
EID:4523 206553c0
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 632a7332
MSGID: 1:363/309 56dab562
PID: RA 2.02 8069
> /:|'##666##'|:\ Name: Satan
> / __ __ \ Date of Birth: October 23,
> 4004 BC
> : __~\ /~__ : Race: Mytholical
> ( ( .\ \|/ /. ) ) Hair: none
> | \_~_) . (_~_/ | Eyes: red, glowing
> (._ ~ /_\ ~ _.)
> \\_._._._._// Last seen in the company of
> Jesus
> \\V V V V// Christ, a convicted felon from
> \\.^.^.// the middle east. Satan was
> wearing
> (_____) red leotards with a matching
> cape.
> Mr. Christ is reported to have
> been
> "Have you seen me?" wearing a white bathrobe.
roflmfao!!!!
---
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
|Date: 03 Mar 96 14:37:20
EID:232b 206374a0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 313c6944
Hi Kenneth...
On 25 Feb 96 18:53:26, Kenneth Cavness penned the following to All
re: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
KC> And a great big lubbin' hello to all of you out there.
And to you too!
KC> Many of you may re-remember me from IRC, or wayyy back
KC> several years ago as Questor Thews. Well, amazingly
KC> enough, I didn't
KC> 1) Die
Some of our participants have, unfortunately.
KC> 2) Get a life
Some of our participants have, fortunately.
KC> 3) Join the Navy, join the Navy, Join the Navy
"In the service for HIS service"?
KC> 4) Become a monk
KC> 5) Become a nun
I have a transexual friend who tried to do that. The Catholic
church apparantly wasn't interested. She's now a stripper.
KC> 6) Become Ron Stringfellow.
Whatever happened to RevRon... anyone know?
KC> I simply lost access to a computer with a BBS... thank goodness
KC> for the Internet!
See ya on #holysmoke!
John
... Change is inevitable - growth is optional
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB] (1:134/67)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:03
EID:689f 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f0d
-=> Quoting Rick Mcfarlane to David Worrell <=-
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
RM> Good morning, David.
RM> I'm not sure I follow your ergo, there. Not that I think the Bible
is
RM> inerrant (far from it), but this is an extremely weak argument.
RM> Dr. Seuss certainly is aware of ideas and distinctions that are much
RM> more complex than those found in his books. But those books are aimed
RM> at a certain audience, and those complex ideas and distinctions would
RM> not be relevant to that audience.
DW> Dr. Suess' books are aimed at children. I thought the Bible was aimed
DW> at *everybody*, not just a barbaric group of savages 2-4000 years ago.
RM> You guys are amazing. You ridicule the fundies who believe that the
RM> bible was written in English, yet, when it suits your purposes, you
RM> pretend that it actually WAS written in English.
RIGHT ON !!!!!
RM> Given the fact that the language that the Bible was written in made
no
RM> distinction between bats and birds (a fact noted in my previous post,
RM> but carefully Hectorized out of the part you quoted back), only a moron
A common tactic when trying to take something out of context or twist
it to mean something it wasn't intended to. Or if it shows the error
of logic in their own replies.
RM> (BTW, not that it is relevant to this discussion, but in answer to
RM> your question, I personally believe that while that book contains
RM> insights of value to modern men, it was aimed at the group to which
it
RM> was delivered. Same goes for the scriptures of other religions).
Again RIGHT ON !
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:04
EID:3bc0 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f0e
-=> Quoting Rick Mcfarlane to Michael Hardy <=-
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
RM> Good morning, Michael. It's been a while.
RM> The part of the Bible you are discussing here was aimed at a wandering
RM> desert tribe that did not distinguish between bats and birds, and did
RM> not posess the vocabulary to make that distinction. Under the
RM> circumstances, the fact that the bible doesn't make such a distinction
RM> is pretty easy to understand, regardless of whether the author was a
RM> member of that tribe or the almighty Creator Himself.
MH> Exactly. Which is also why Genesis doesn't include a detailed
MH> description of evolutionary processes.
RM> Sure. That would have been a major waste of time - information that
RM> could not have been understood by the intended audience, and that did
RM> not need to be conveyed to fulfill the purpose at hand. It's supposed
RM> to be a spiritual, moral guide (and family history), not an
RM> encyclopedia.
RM> There are lots of examples of inaccuracies and contradictions in the
RM> Bible, but this one (along with my favourite - the pi=3.00 thing)
RM> really isn't one of them. Now, rabbits and cud, or Jesus ancestry,
or
RM> which was created first, men or plants, or ... like I said, there are
RM> lots of them.
MH> Interesting note, though -- the word translated "create" in Genesis
MH> one means to make out of nothing. The word translated "create" in
MH> Genesis 2 is a different Hebrew word which means to form out of
MH> existing material.
RM> I don't see how that makes a difference, Michael (if anything, it
RM> compounds the inconsistencies). It's the order that I was referring
RM> to as inconsistent.
RM> The birds make an even clearer case - they were made out of nothing
on
RM> day 5 in Gen. 1, with man coming on day 6 (note: it says that He made
RM> birds on day 5, not stuff out of which He would later form birds).
Yet
RM> in Gen. 2, we have God forming them from something else in the presence
RM> of man.
RM> So, the fact that the two chapters are inconsistent in the manner in
RM> which birds were first created doesn't do anything to mitigate the
RM> fact that they are also inconsistent on whether they were created
RM> before or after man.
The bible I have "new international version" says God "had"
created the birds ..which he "brought" to Adam to be named.
So wherever god created the birds, they began to fly through the garden
and
when adam saw them he began to name them. Oh look at that Red one over there
lets call it Robin. Hey I never saw a bird like that one before . Hey Eve
look there is a different looking bird, Lets call it a Dove.
Naming was a process that took place AFTER the animals had been created.
I would suppose it would take some time to name all the animals, in between
naming the plants and other such things.
Also it says God had created them FROM the ground. Dust to dust ashes to
ashes. I think everything that exists originated from the fertile soil
don't you ? Even the stuff that first crawled out of sea, probably buried
its eggs in the ground to incubate them.
Just a few ideas to chew on.
... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Enoch Jones
|Sub: Re: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:05
EID:71ee 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f0f
-=> Quoting Enoch Jones to All <=-
EJ> Atheists have nothing to do with "morals" in the sense that a
EJ> Christian thinks of being 'virtuous' [interesting sidebar: in the
EJ> early Christian church many fathers didn't believe "virtue" was
EJ> necessary to be a Christian--this virtuosity was an influence of stoic,
EJ> Greek philosophy which led to ascetism, etc; the point of being
EJ> "christian" is that one is a follower of Christ who takes away the
EJ> condemnation of not being virtuous [see the Law of Moses which failed
EJ> miserably]]. Atheists act by being objective--sure they can yield to
EJ> emotionalism, pride, arrogance, etc., but it has been my experience
EJ> that persons who thrive on being objective lack the neurosis of pride,
EJ> arrogance and bigotry that run rampant throughout mysticism-based
EJ> religions like modern Christianity.
I suppose you could say that is also true of the sociopath who could
slit your throat and serve your brains on a platter to your family
without a tinge of guilt. No terrible "emotionalism" there.
I think the MAIN emphases of Christ was LOVE.
Remember he said ALL of the Laws of Moses would be fulfilled if we
followed but 2 commandments.
1) Love god
2) Love your neighbor.
Now of course love means many things to many people, but the bible give
this definition of love starting in 1st corinthians 13:4.
Love is patient and kind. It does not envy, it does not boast,
it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is
not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not
delight in evil but rejoices in the truth. it always protects,
always trusts, always hopes, always preserves. Love never fails.
Just rejoicing in the truth would go a long way to solving all
the worlds ills, I would say :-)
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Abusers
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:07
EID:cc28 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f11
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
LB> lessons inhow to be a successful abuser, but the FIRST step is to
LB> convince your victim
LB> Thus the abusers first set themselves up as PROTECTOR from the bad
LB> cruelworld, and deny access (or the ability to gain access) to any
MM> Been there, done that and you are exactly right on how it works. Took
MM> me a number of years to reverse the process. Now I'm just left with
a
MM> rather noticible reaction when one person begins the CONTROL movements.
And the sad thing is you can't stop them. I remember watching a friend
do that. We all sat around and begged her not to go back to this man
who continually humiliated her. But SHE was the "savoir" of this poor
man. She "loved" him. He was her "protector". A very jealous god.
They call it the WAR cycle. It starts as children learn to choose the
same kind of mate as their abused mother when they grow up. They want
a "controller" like their dad was. they see it as a "strength". They
look for it in a man. Then when they get what the asked for, they
complain about being abused. And the man is just the same. He grew
up thinking that was the way you were suppose to be. It is a LEARNED
BEHAVOIR and has to be more UNLEARNED than punished.
... Danger, Masochistic Maiden! Off-topic messages! Danger!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:08
EID:7d5a 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f12
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to John Prewett <=-
-> On 02-25-96 19:35, John Prewett got back to Sean Mccullough
-> Re: Adolph Hitler
SM> [---------------------------------------------------------------------]
SM>.............. it remains established that "Satan" does not exist.
SM> [--------------------------------------------------------------------]
JP> Sheer unsupported, unproven, unevidenced opinion noted.
DC> Got evidence that Satan exists, John? If so, lets see it.
Depends on your definition of Satan. If you mean a red guy with horns
and a pitchfork, there is no point continuing this discussion. I havent
seen him take that form. But I am sure many of us have seen him take the
form of people like Charles Manson :-)
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:09
EID:a6dd 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f13
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to John Prewett <=-
> SM> [---------------------------------------------------------------------]
> SM>.............. it remains established that "Satan" does not exist.
> SM> [--------------------------------------------------------------------]
> Sheer unsupported, unproven, unevidenced opinion
> noted.
SM> Sorry, John.
SM> ALL negatives are established as true unless and until evidenced
SM> false.
SM> Now: how about some direct evidence for your claimed "Satan" fellow??
How do you prove the wind exists ? You can't see it or put it in a jar.
You can "feel" it's prescence. You can see the "effect" it has on other
things.
That is the only way to describe proving the existence of God or Satan.
They are like the wind. You know it exists by the effect it has.
God is a "spirit" . What is a "spirit" ? The "spirit" of Christmas.
the "spirit" of peace, the "spirit" of friendship. Can you put it
in a test tube or under a microscope ?
... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1996
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:10
EID:143b 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f14
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to John Prewett <=-
KD> And you seem to think you can get out of this by claiming that anyone
KD> who has done anything wrong must not be Christian. Personally, I don't
KD> care if YOU consider them Christian. If they consider themselves
KD> Christian, they must believe their moral code comes from the Bible or
KD> Christ. If they then go commit horrible acts, that moral code must not
KD> be worth anything. Fact: people who consider themselves Christian go
How would you like it if I formed a group of people and we called
ourselves Davistians. Now we go around and we rape little boys and
kill gays and witches in YOUR name. We tell everyone that YOU told
us to do these things. And thousands of KKK members and white supremists
join our ranks and pedophiles and we all claim to be following the
teachings of Karen Davis as devout Davistians.
Do you think it would be unfair to blame YOU and your children
for what we are doing. Do you think it would be fair for people
to ridicule and hate your family for what we were doing in YOU name?
Well that is what is happening to Jesus Christ. People are "claiming"
to be following his teachings and everybody just takes them at their
word. They don't bother asking Jesus if he did tell these "christians"
to do these wicked things. Before you blame Jesus for what"christains"
do, why not read EVERYTHING Jesus said. And after that ask him personally
he will answer all your questions personally, you don't need anyone else
to interpret for you. Let Jesus do that in your heart.
Jesus said "Saul why persecutest thou me ?" !
Is he now saying "Karen why peresecutest thou me?" !
... "Transporter chief Davis, beam the landing party to the bridge"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:12
EID:c2fb 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f16
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Anthony Grigor-scott <=-
AG> Not even though human and dinosoar footprints are found together.
MG> Please reference ONE instance of this happening. I will research it
MG> and reply on why it was a fake.
MG> Do it now and prepare to look foolish.
Dinosaurs weren't allowed in the Garden , and by the time Adam and
Eve had eaten from the forbidden tree, the dinosaurs had become
extinct :-)
... Press now to access the pirate software.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:13
EID:244b 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f17
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Karen Davis <=-
GR> Hell! I'm an atheist, last wallet I found, I returned to the owner
GR> with all the money. The fundie I returned it to was shocked that
GR> nothing was taken.
Me too. But I just handed it into the proper authorities and never heard
from the owner.
Isn't that a surprise concidering I refer to myself as a Christian.
According to Karen all Christians seem to be murdering, lieing, thieves.
... Pardon me, but would you have any Blue Poupon?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Ducks?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:14
EID:bd7c 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f18
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to David Worrell <=-
DW> Do ducks try to prohibit people from doing with their bodies as they
DW> wish? Do ducks try to prohibit free expression of ideas? Do ducks
DW> burn books? Do ducks waddle around trying to get all other creatures
DW> to become ducks?
MM> Nope, all ducks don't anyway. However, one duck will fight off other
MM> ducks that are from a different pond. What I see in the world is a
lot
MM> of people arguing about things, and pushing things that are usually
the
MM> same things described in different terms. Seems wasteful to me.
This message reminded me of the time I was feeding some ducks and geese.
When I fed the ducks, they would all crowd over and try and snatch the
bread from one another or get it first.
But when I fed the geese, they all just waited their turn. They didn't
try to get each others bread or but in. It was quite interesting.
... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: echo
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:15
EID:617a 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f19
GR> There are some who will engage in intelligent
MS> conversation without the flames or the attempts at wit.
GR> Allowing clown suits isn't a sign of intelligent conversation.
GR> And if I state that an idiot who wears a clown suit is an idiot, that
GR> isn't a flame. That is a statement of fact.
Are you sure?
What if that is just "your" perception. Maybe that so called "idiot"
in the clown suit is really a very intelligent caring person who is
entertaining children and you just "think" he is an idiot because he
is wearing a clown suit.
It is the "judgement" of him as an idiot that is a "flame" .
there is no place here for calling people "idiots" just because they
happen to disagree with you or see things in a different light.
... What do you mean? You actually read this tagline?!?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:16
EID:2705 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f1a
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Karl Schneider <=-
MG>>it does without having bad side effects. Kids fall off of
MG>>high places every day and end up in emergency rooms. Why
MG>>didn't your god think of
MG>>that?
KS> He was too busy developing other, more heinous methods.
MG> Hardly thinks god is perfect. He refuses to accept any evidence to
MG> the contrary, so I guess he also believes used car salesmen.
Of course "god" is perfect. That is in the "definition" of him silly :-)
Are you going to blame "god" for the choices that people make ? WHether
it be not watching their children or not teaching them to stay away
from the edge. I am sure that "god" didn't "push" the kid off of that
high place. God didn't even put the kid up on that high place. Stop
blaming god for what people do from things like carelessnes, greed,
anger etc etc etc.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:18
EID:b73a 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f1c
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Rob Burcham <=-
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> However, you also seem to think that if a God *did* exist, the universe
MH> would be completely man-centered.
RB> And where, pray tell, did I get that notion?
MH> I haven't a clue. Certainly not from the Christian religion.
I do have a clue. The truth is that the universe IS man centered.
In fact if you think about it YOU is
the center of the universe. Think about it. Especially if the universe
is infinite, and we have no reason to believ that it isn't.
In an infinite universe, any particular spot in it is the center of it.
Now on a more personal level, who is the center of YOU'RE universe ?
YOU are, everything else is outside of it and surrounding you, YOU are
the center of your universe and the universe. Now if you want to define
a "solar system" as a system that revolves around a sun, then indeed
you are not the center of the solatr system, but you still remain the
center of the universe. :-)
... Documentation - The worst part of programming.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:20
EID:9da9 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f1e
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Kenneth Mcabee <=-
KM>>> There are no other gods.
DR>> What a stupid thing to say. Do you have any evidence that
DR>> the gods do not exist?
KM> The Bible.
MG> yAre you as simple minded as you present yourself here?
What is wrong with being simple minded ? I like the idea? The
simpler the better. WHy try to make things complicated if they
don't have to be.
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:21
EID:db8f 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f1f
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Masochistic Maiden <=-
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> Many cultists today try to force their occultism into the public
FR> schools in an attempt to staunch the flow of blood, so-to-speak, that
MM> as enriching. What I see damaging is when it is presented in such a
way
MM> that people are forced to adhere to a particular viewpoint rather than
JB> You DO realize that you just paraphrased what Fred said, don't you?
JB> Unfortunately, the Religious Right IS trying to take over what is
JB> taught in public schools so that it will adhere to THEIR dogma. Truth
JB> and facts be damned.
JB> Creationism does NOT belong in a science class and one religion's
JB> prayers should not be expected of all, regardless of their affiliation
JB> (or lack of) to whatever religion.
Of course it doesn't. Science is the study of the physical realm based
on solid physical evidence, not faith.
Creationism has it's place in the social studies and history classes.
... Sorry, the dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:22
EID:afb7 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f20
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Fredric Rice <=-
-> On 02-25-96 17:46, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
MM> chooses to not have a faith, that is their decision. If a person
MM> decides to have a faith, that is their decision as well.
dc> David Koresh had faith. So did Jim Jones, as well as Adolph Hitler.
FR> "But but but... But that's DIFFERENT!"
DC> Sure seems to be the tale that we get...
FR> I wonder at the many people who ignore the fact that an ideology is
FR> proven deadly and insist that everyone's ideologies should be
FR> tolerated.
DC> It's a bit easier to to if you have an ideology that tolerates
DC> other ones, even more so if the other ones are accepted. Where
DC> the problem is when one ideology claims to be the only true one.
WHo cares whether they claim to be the only one. That is NOT the problem.
The problem is when one ideology interferes with the rights of other
people.
... This tagline is made just for Dan Ceppa
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Olympic posters.
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:23
EID:7b2c 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f21
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to George Rudzinski <=-
DC> There always seems to be more praying goin on than doing.
Reminds me of a phrase I once heard at church.
Some Christians are so heavenly minded that they're no earthly good :-)
... I call things as I see them; If I didn't see them, I make them up!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: or maybe just sugar
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:24
EID:e112 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f22
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Judith Bandsma <=-
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> See, this is what I object to:
JB> HATE IS NOT A FAMILY VALUE
MH> You've sent me two posts of articles regarding the issue of whether
MH> gays should have special protection under the law. This is a
MH> legitimate issue to debate, and there may be valid arguments on both
MH> sides. Or perhaps one side is clearly and completely in the wrong.
MH> However, to assume that disagreement with something equals hate is
MH> abhorrent to me. The mentality is: If you don't think homosexuals
MH> need special protection above the basic civil rights everyone has, you
MH> must "hate" gays. If you argue that immigrants shouldn't be allowed
to
MH> enter our country illegally and take welfare benefits that legal
MH> citizens need, you must "hate" foreigners. If you think that unborn
MH> babies have a right to become born babies, you must "hate" women.
MH> As long as the liberal side persists in painting every conservative
MH> position as "hate," we'll continue simply fighting with one another
MH> and never finding common ground.
MH> That's why I insist that Focus on the Family is not a "hate" group.
MH> Yes, they hold firm moral convictions that certain behaviors are
MH> wrong. But rather than engage them in a dialogue of IDEAS about
MH> whether those behaviors are, in fact, wrong, you simply dismiss the
MH> critics as "a hate group."
MH> Disapproval of a behavior does not automatically equal hatred of
MH> people who approve of or practice that behavior. You seem content to
MH> simply call names rather than debate actual issues.
GREAT MESSAGE and worth quoting for people to read again :-)
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:25
EID:db8d 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f23
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Elliott Finesse <=-
MH> That was after the eighth plague. By that time, God had chosen to
MH> make an example of him -- inspired by his hardening his own heart over
MH> the first five plagues.
MH> All Pharoah had to do was free the Hebrews and repent before their
MH> God OF HIS OWN FREE WILL BEFORE GOD HAD TO RESORT TO REPEATED COERCION
MH> and I've no doubt that God would have forgiven him and blessed his
MH> people.
What are we suppose to feel sorry for the Pharoah and Curse God for
his wretched treatment of the Pharoah ?
DUH ?
... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal also has great Igno
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:26
EID:1659 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f24
GR> Or are you just depending on what people claim god said when you have
GR> never talked to god?
KM> George,
KM> I talk to God all the time.
KM> Kenneth Mcabee
Yes, but have you ever "listened" to him :-) Sorry I couldn't resist:-)
... Taglines are irrelevant. You will be assimilated into the Blue Wave.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:27
EID:67b6 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f25
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to All <=-
RS> * Forwarded (from: church&state) by Ryan Shaw using timEd/2 1.10+.
RS> * Originally from David Bloomberg (1:2430/2112) to All.
RS> * Original dated: Sun Feb 25, 12:35
RS> From the Chicago Tribune, over the New York Times Wire Service,
RS> 2/23/96:
RS> Ten Commandments boosted
RS> The Tennessee Senate has approved, 27-1, a resolution urging
RS> homes, businesses, places of worship and schools to post and observe
RS> the Ten Commandments, despite an opinion of the state attorney general
RS> that the resolution is unconstitutional.
RS> The sponsor, state Sen. Ben Atchley, a Knoxville Republican who is
RS> the majority leader, said the resolution was an effort to reaffirm
RS> moral standards. The measure, passed Wednesday, now goes to the House,
RS> where passage is expected.
RS> State Sen. Steve Cohen, a Democrat who was the only senator to
RS> vote against the resolution, said the vote was an alarming indication
RS> of the rising power of the religious Right.
RS> -=-=-=-
RS> Encouraging SCHOOLS to post a religious document? Don't they ever
RS> learn their lessons about the First Amendment?
RS> Even better -- encouraging places of worship to do it. So now we have
RS> the government telling religious institutions how to run their
RS> religion. And people wonder why we need church/state separation...
What's wrong with that ? As long as it isn't a law. What is wrong
with encouraging people to post rules such as
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not steal
etc
And then encouraging people to abide by them.
Would you prefer they encouraged people to bear and keep arms.
Lower the drinking and and legalize marijuana ?
... Security, confine Ensign Shaw to the brig.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:28
EID:3e23 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f26
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Andrew Masten <=-
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> Read your book again. The only survivors spared where the
DC> virgin women.
AM>
AM> Yes, thats correct. You would have to read it into the text to
AM> believe they kept them for sex slaves however.
GR> What do you think they kept virgin women for stupid?
Why to knit sweaters of virgin wool of course !
... "Don't mince words, George ... what do you *REALLY* think?"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: Tithe
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:29
EID:95e4 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f27
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Elliott Finesse <=-
EF>In a message dated 02-17-96 Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Richard
EF>Morrison:
EF>KW> Find out how much your preachers robes and
EF>KW> suit cost, what the price of the choir stalls
EF>KW> was, the printers bill for the programs...
EF>KW>
EF>KW> Then find out how many hungry children that
EF>KW> exercise in pride would have fed. If you
EF>KW> belong to one of the really fancy
EF>KW> denominations, this will horrify you. Do you
EF>KW> have any idea how much a silver chalice to
EF>KW> serve up your god's blood costs?
KW> Elliott, if you had taken the time and trouble to have read (and
KW> quoted) that passage in context it would have been obvious even to you
KW> that the subject under discussion was charities (such as those pushed
KW> by TV evangelists) that were designed mostly to line the pockets of
the
KW> charity. I'll re quote the original post, and this time you can read
KW> the whole thing. Of course, that will remove your excuse for a self
KW> righteous snit fit.
KW> So if you got rid of TV you would get rid of the evil? I don't think
KW> so, Richard. The church (under whatever name) has been enriching
KW> itself all along. Take a look at the cathedrals of Europe. At the
KW> local churches rearing their beautiful rooflines proud against the sky.
KW> Then look at the homeless and mentally ill huddled under the
KW> overpasses (did you know that once bishops had a terrible time with
the
KW> unsightly poor sheltering between the buttresses of cathedrals?).
KW> That's not TV, Richard, that's real life. Find out how much your
KW> preachers robes and suit cost, what the price of the choir stalls was,
KW> the printers bill for the programs...
KW> *********************************************************
KW> Saying that their priorities are one thing, then acting in a totally
KW> different manner makes them fair game in my book. Selectivity editing
KW> my post to give yourself a target makes you fair game in my book,
KW> also. This tends to make your live and let live stance look a bit,
KW> shall we say, hypocritical.
And of course you have the documents to back up the claim that monies
specifically donated for starving children were going to choir robes
and such ?
Or is it possible that some members of the church like to see their
choir in robes, and tithe to provide them. Or maybe some church
members appreciate a warm beautiful building to worship God in and
tithe some of their hard earned money for it.
Or would you suggest that presidents of religious tv stations should not
be paid just like the presidents of any secular tv station expect to be
paid?
Are all religious people suppose to dress in sack cloth and ashes and
eat bread and water and give the rest of the money to the poor ?
People who take on the high degree of responsibility of handling large
organizations should be paid accoordingly whether they are secular or
religious organizations.
Should a christian bricklayer not get paid as much as a non christian
bricklayer ?
Should christians not be allowed to tithe from their hard earned money
for the pleasure of seeing their choir in robes instead of a t shirt
and shorts ?
... Drop your carrier ... we have you surrounded!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: troll
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:30
EID:ed28 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f28
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to David Worrell <=-
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> Of _course_ I'm trolling,
DW> Really? Trolling is just a fancy word for lying. Is God proud of you
DW> right now?
MH> Well, let's see ...
MH> Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While
MH> we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
MH> Dunno about proud, but he loves me still (and you too, for that
MH> matter.) That's good enough for me.
I thought "trolling" was another word for "fishing". Jesus said I will
make you fishers of men if you follow me.
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Truth? Who Sez So?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:11:31
EID:ec1d 20644960
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 20897f29
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Elliott Finesse <=-
MH> See, I don't know what else to do. Whenever I offer an opinion on a
MH> controversy, I consult the appropriate references to use in
MH> formulating my opinion, and name them. Sometimes I quote them
MH> directly.
MH> Have you simply decided that you are going to argue with everything
I
MH> say, even though I've backed up my opinion with references? Should I
MH> send scholars to knock on your door, credentials in hand, to
MH> corroborate my representation of their work?
Just because you can trot out the references you got your ideas from
does not make them valid. We all have a right to our own opinions and
just because Billy Bob agrees with you, doesn't mean it is so.
Scholars ? What about the scholars that authenticated the Piltdown Man?
They were wrong.
Also much depends on "definition". You can trot out a dictionary and
tell me what it says the definition of "love" is, but MY definition
may be much different from the dictionary definition.
I do not have to agree with the "scholars" interpretation of things. Yes
they may have more experience in such matters, but when it comes to
interpretation, give me the relevant information and I will make up
my own mind. Not like some people < no one personally intended> who do not
even try to think for themselves but just regurgitate what professor So
and So has written in his latest book.
EF> THEN SUPPLY ME WITH THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU YOURSELF USED TO DETERMINE
EF> THE TIME.
MH> I understand completely your argument regarding documentation of
MH> opinions. You're right. However, I did exactly what you suggest
MH> should be done, and I don't see where you have a valid complaint.
And it must be especially difficult to know what the word "day" meant
if it was passed down by word of mouth for hundreds of generations before
people even learned to write as a small example.
... BEWARE - Tagline Thief in this echo
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HI, Staal
|Date: 05 Mar 96 10:34:43
EID:8132 20655440
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d0ebec6f
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89350EFB
On 02 Mar 96, Dan Ceppa wrote:
-> On 02-28-96 11:09, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> would be no point in praying to yourself.
JB> That's the point.
DC> Of course, an argument could be made for a god with the MPD that
DC> Staal evinces. <-- Look it up, Bro Jim, if you can get the
DC> dictionary out from under your milk crate.
JB> "MPD?"............Oh! Multiple Personality Disorder.
JB> (*grin*)
DC> However, in Staal's case, it would not be a three-in-one god,
DC> but more like a world convention of them, held in the Huston
DC> Astrodome, if even that's large enough... ;)
Not large enough. A case can be made that there's only one
consciousness in universe, and we are all (each) it's "points of view."
(Hence we are all "gods.")
In that case, it's an MPD with 5.5X10^9 personalities.... (Ignoring, of
course, the possibility that there are other "points of view" out there
on other planets around other stars.)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Quantum Physics: the Dreams that Stuff is made of.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:01:28
EID:06b6 20656820
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 070040c8
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 1f840151
On 02 Mar 96, Jim Germiquet wrote:
> EF> Or consider a fly landing on a table top. The fly occupies a sur
> EF> area of 1 mm. The table top is 1 metre x 1 metre, or 1,000,000
> Presuming a standard housefly, no housefly is only one square millimet
> in table-surface-covering area. (More like 30 or 40 mm; 8mm long by
> wide.)
EF> Well I'd have to see an example of....Oh wait a minute. Oh I see.
EF> Sure, you're right. Well I'll beaSonofabitch. Thanks for pointing that
JG> Don't you just hate it when someone completely ignores the point you
JG> are trying to make in order to point out some miniscule imprecision
in
JG> detail.
JG> A rather questionable debating tactic at best :-)
It's never a good idea to let a debate opponent "get away with" any
_inaccuracy_. As you perhaps know, debates are about winning debates,
not about truth or honesty, but this means also that if the opponent
detects a distortion, regardless of how small, it becomes an effective
'weapon' in his arsenal to POINT OUT the (real, actual) inaccuracy.
(This impugns the accuracy of the debater's whole argument: once the
audience knows beyond all doubt that that particular debater has used a
clear inaccuracy, that they can SEE is one, they will suspect the rest
of his arguments in which they are not well-enough informed to detect
inaccuracies if they were there.)
I agree it's borderline nefarious. Creationists use it all the time.
However, since his argument was inherently mathematical (a 1-in-a-
million-chance-type argument), it is valid (I think) to point out an
order of magnitude's difference between the example used, and a more
accurate version of same.... 1 in 1,000,000 is quite different from 1
in 33,000, wouldn't you agree?
(I think I _did_ address more than just this, but either way, I don't
see that it's necessarily a "questionable debating tactic" to point out
an actual-factual inaccuracy. Why do you think this is not a proper
action for a debater?)
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... TAG! You're _it!_
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Re: Real
|Date: 04 Mar 96 07:37:31
EID:b596 20643ca0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hello again Don.
No I hadn't forgot about you. I however was hoping that maybe
you would have grown up a little, since we last chatted. Don you
seem to think it is so clever to play around with scripture. Like
many other people you want everything done for you. I had told you
to look in the bible for your answer. Because I believe you really
don't want an answer to your question. I think you just want to
play games. But if you do want to know I would suggest you read
Acts 2:36-42 the plan of salvation. You see Don you must turn away
from your sins! God requires this of us. I don't think it is to
much to ask, Don do you? God gave us choices to make, because he
didn't want robots. So you must do something to show you are
sincere and that you are willing to turn away for sin. Sure God
could do it for you but what would be the point, you would just go
back and sin again.
Acts 2:36-42 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both
Lord and Christ. {37} Now when they heard , they were pricked
in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles,
Men brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto
them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus
Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
the Holy Ghost. {39} For the promise is unto you, and to your
children, and to all that are afar off, as many as the Lord
our God shall call. {40} And with many other words did he testify
and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
{41} Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the
same day there were added about three thousand souls.
{42} And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and
fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
I added this Don because I don't know if you have a bible or not.
Brad
... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
* Origin: The Holo-Deck Hamilton Ont. Can. (905)578-5746 (1:244/108)
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Re: Baptism
|Date: 04 Mar 96 07:37:32
EID:e877 20643ca0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ
BJ> have put on Christ.
SS> Put him on?
BJ> I pray some will listen and come to know God!
SS> Why? If not for your god's bungling, what would be the need for
SS> heaven, hell, or saviours?
Hello Shelby.
You seem to think God has mad mistakes, when know in your heart
he hasn't! You only fight against God because of the devil, if you
could only realize this you would be so much closer to finding out
the truth.
God loves us so much he came down and lived amoung us. His
flesh even died on the cross for our sins. He will help you if you
want the help, but he isn't going to make you come to him.
Matthew 7:7 Ask , and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall
find; [knock], and it shall be opened unto you:
Luke 11:9 And I
say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall
find; [knock], and it shall be opened unto you.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and [knock]: if any man hear my voice,
and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and
he with me.
You see Shelby, he is waiting for you and any one else that truly
looks for him.
Shelby God is the same from the beginning of the bible start through
to the end of it, once you understand this you will have peace
knowing you can trust in Jesus.
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 05 Mar 96 16:11:38
EID:e456 20658160
MSGID: 1:207/212 fb3eef91
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 89364399
On (04 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Karen Davis...
MH> I don't understand why this obvious difference seems so difficult for
MH> atheists to grasp. It seems to me it's as obvious as the difference
MH> between saying "I am thinking of the number three" and writing the
MH> numeral three on a piece of paper.
There IS no difference other than keeping something secret or not.
And YOU don't seem to get it - those are VERIFIED deaths of people
living in the same time as their leader. Not one of the martyrdoms of
those who knew Christ is verified. Nor is it in evidence that it was
what happened to him as opposed to his teachings.
... If you play Satanic music backwards, do you get hymns?
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Monty Arch
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 05 Mar 96 14:01:25
EID:0aa1 20657020
MSGID: 1:236/64 210edeb6
TID: GE 1.11+
AG> Not even though human and dinosoar footprints are found together.
NS> They have not.
They do on the Flinstones and on Barney and Friends.
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: all
|Sub: Hamas
|Date: 05 Mar 96 15:05:14
EID:1ce4 206578a0
Hamas, that lovely band of Islamic fundy nuts, has returned to their old
ways of blowing up innocent people (at this point, mainly Israelis - four
terrorist attacks in 10 days.) How should Israel respond to this group,
which obviously has no interest in peace, and simply wants to see the end
of the State of Israel? How should the peace-inclined Palestinians respond?
*adh*
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Relative Stupidity
|Date: 05 Mar 96 18:43:45
EID:b02d 20659560
Whilst masticating on , Kenneth Cavness (1:382/804)
wrote to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>>No I don't, just because I refuse to tempt God with your little test,
does
KM>>not mean that I call God a liar. Is there any example in the Bible of
KM>>someone purposely drinking poison to prove that they were faithful?
KC> Unless you are a literalist, this should serve.
KC> Paul allowed himself to be bitten by a viper.
Most likely a harmless grass snake. Claiming it was a viper made for a
better story, and the cultists would be impressed.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: Still misquoting...
|Date: 06 Mar 96 02:26:25
EID:877f 20661340
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 1379c1bd
REPLY: 1:115/769.2 f1c632a7
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Bill Wolff wrote in a message to Fredric Rice:
BW> No wonder I think of you as a middle ages man, living in a modern
BW> world.
Interesting, as we see modern day fundies living in a middle ages world.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Changed fundy?
|Date: 05 Mar 96 18:50:00
EID:cbf5 20659640
-> That's doubtful. Unless you managed to acquire an education in the
-> short time it's been since you fled, you're still the fundy we all
-> know and love. I suspect that you still don't understand how
-> scientific method debunks most (if not all) of your deeply-held
-> religious superstitions.
And what evidence do you require? I've always had an education, I just
never used it. If you have any real doubts, then ask away. I admit I'm
not a very scientific person, but I don't need to be to see that I was
as blind as a bat in the so-called "Light of the World."
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Medicated
|Date: 05 Mar 96 18:50:00
EID:f89e 20659640
-> And, since you state it in a public broadcast forum, about 200
-> others. }:-}
I know. That's why i said it that way.:)
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Joan would like to clear up some misunderstandings
|Date: 05 Mar 96 18:52:00
EID:6d0d 20659680
-> Believers in the occult believe for many reasons, Joannna, and
-> stupidity is onl one reason. Being brought up believing in the
-> occult is one of the major reasons for belief and it's not anyone's
-> fault but the parents.
Whatever one calls it...
Butyou're right, it was my parents beliefs. But i don't believe it any
more.:)
Joanna
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Joan would like to clear up some misunderstandings
|Date: 05 Mar 96 18:53:00
EID:6d0d 206596a0
-> My apologies. I'll refrain from using the dimmunitive form.
Thank you. :)
JoannA
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 18:56:00
EID:c556 20659700
-> You haven't mentioned whether or not you got back on your meds. If
-> you are still off them and have reclaimed your brain...HOORAY! If you
-> have gone back on them, even better.
->
-> Some of us didn't get a laugh out of you, Joanna. Some of us were
-> worried sick that you were going to end up on a slab as nothing more
-> than another statistic. What a waste that would have been. Your
-> religious convictions seemed to have you in a state of believing you
-> were invulnerable...that was what we found the stupidest.
I think I mentioned it yesterday.:) But no, I haven't gone back on the
meds. My doctor told my mom, (apparently) that i would probably go off
of them one day anyway. I haven't seen my doctor since I went off the
meds, and she hasn't said a word abut it to my mom, who also sees her.
I don't need the meds. In fact, the medication seemed to dull my senses
a lot. I couldn't think clearly, and life just seemed to go on around
me, not with me. I insist that I am better off without them. And I
claim not help from any god.
Joanna
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Medicated
|Date: 05 Mar 96 18:59:00
EID:f89e 20659760
-> I hope you went back on your medication.
No, I didn't go back on the medication. And hopefully I never will.
I've accomplished a lot more without it.:)
Joanna
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Good laughs
|Date: 05 Mar 96 12:11:06
EID:752d 20656160
MSGID: 1:352/266 313D25AA
JA> stupid they acted when they WERE as fundy as I was. I didn't make
JA> anysense whatsoever, and I can see why everyone ere got a good laugh
JA> out ofme.:)
Hey fundy or not, a good laugh is good for you, isn't it?
Actually I think the most motivating experience I had that moved me away
from being totally tied up with fundamentalism was to stop listening to
everyone and start reading and questioning everything. Now, I just need
to preven becoming another kind of fundy. There exists categories of non-diety
worshiping fundy's too. I think the category fundy actually applies to those
who insist their view must be the one and only whether that view is on religion
or the meaning of a myth, or how to fry an egg.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Changes
|Date: 05 Mar 96 12:12:25
EID:6a6b 20656180
MSGID: 1:352/266 313D25AB
JA> Wasteful, yes. But a good discussion never hurt anyone.:)
Agreed, but I find even a heated discussion doesn't have to be a mud slinging
fest. I hear too much of that from politicians now.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Istambul paraphrased
|Date: 05 Mar 96 12:37:27
EID:86db 206564a0
MSGID: 1:352/266 313D25AC
MH> interested in discovering and believing the truth, even if it makes
First, you have to define truth.
MM> Have you ever read the Blindmen of Istambul?
MH> No, I haven't. What is it?
Well, with apologies to the source, I'll have to paraphrase, Try looking
it up in a set of encyclopedias. I don't have the original available here
at home. However I will post it for you when I locate it.
To paraphrase, There was once a village in Istambul where they kept a mighty
elephant. His strength and courage was told all over the land. People began
to flock to the town to experience elephant. They created a paddock for
him, and allowed visitors to enter only one at a time.
Ten blind me came to experience Elephant. The first one was a brave soul
full of curiosity and pride. He ran full speed into the enclosure and encountered
the tusk of the Elephant immediately. Feeling the sharp point hitting him
he cried out, "Oh, Great Elephant, he's very like a spear. Run away and
do not return for he is as a mighty warrior!"
The second blind man, a bit scared by the experience of the first, entered
the enclosure of Elephant a bit more cautiously. One hand reaching out before
him carefully searching, encountered the waving trunk of Elephant. The trunk
wrapped quickly aound his wrist and he became terrified. Running from the
enclosure he screamed, "Elephant is very like a snake! Avoid him or you
will be pulled into his coils! Run, flee!"
The third blind man entered the enclosure and hugged close to the wall.......
finally after some time in the enclosure he became aware of a gentle breeze
across his skin..... "Um... " he said,
"Great Elephant is very like a fan giving relief from the heat.
He is something to bring comfort into our lives."
The fourth blind man entered the enclosure with his hands before him searching
for any encounters. He soon walked directly into the side of great Elephant.
His hands reaching wide, and high he could not find an end to Elephant.
He said, "Elephant is like a great wall, it defies passage and hold one
securely back." And he walked away puzzeling the wonders of Elephant.
The fifth blind man encountered the elephants great leg and said, "Oh, Great
Elephant is very like a tree. I can lean against it when tired. I can hide
next to it from the wind and rain. I can feel its great strength."
The sixth blind man encountered the elephants tail and said. "Oh, Great
Elephant is very like a rope. One could hang onto him in dangerous times...
one could also become entangled and dragged away. I'll tie a large knot
and others can hang on more easily."
And so on each blind man examined Elephant with those perceptive skills
he possesed. Then a crippled man was brought into the room and he said,
"Brothers, I can not enter into the confine of great Elephant, but I too
would like to know of this experience."
Each blind man began to excitedly describe his perspective of Great Elephant,
and then they began to shout, and then to fight as they argued over who's
view was more correct.
Man, with limited perceptions approach the unknown and try to explain it
in ways that reflect their own experiences. This is the state of religions
today. Most religious people will admit that knowing the nature of diety
is not possible, so they spend their time arguing about who was right in
their view.
That's only a paraphrasing but the idea still gets across.
See if you can find the original, or ask me to and I'll go to the library
and find it for you.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Debate
|Date: 05 Mar 96 12:41:44
EID:5e7d 20656520
MSGID: 1:352/266 313D25AD
MH> If you strongly believe something is true, should you be restrained
MH> from at least discussing it with people? I don't mean legislating
MH> religious belief -- which can't be really done anyway -- but free
MH> speech and open debate.
I believe strongly in complete freedom of speach and open debate. I just
don't feel that we need to become caustic during it. I realize that this
is a forum where you may do so if you choose and that may be fine for some.
It just isn't my choice to approach it that way.
I don't think violence or sexuality, or death, or any other topic should
be censored. They exist in our world, and discussion can help us decide
how we want to deal with that factor of life.
A friend once said I'm sort of fundamentally against fundamentalism, Dogmatic
about no dogma, and curious about everything. It works pretty good.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hatred
|Date: 05 Mar 96 12:47:48
EID:4fb4 206565e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 313D25AE
MH> There is nothing admirable about Fred. He's a firm believer in guilt
MH> by association -- if Hitler hated Jews, and Hitler called himself a
But it also states clearly that this belief can be used as a motivator.
What it motivates can be swayed by the weilder of the belief. This is the
type of hatemongering disguised as a message of love that I hear often on
the TV Evangelism shows, hear in the discussions on politics and other places.
MH> He's not the only one, of course. Other anti-Christers think the same
MH> way. Three anti-abortion activists have killed people. Never mind
MH> that millions of pro-lifers are as appalled at that as anyone else,
MH> people who think like Fred believe that three nuts is proof that
MH> pro-lifers are violent.
If this was a bait for a discussion on abortion and it's morality. Sorry
I already did that one for this echo. I'm a strange mix of pro-life, pro-choice.
If it's me, pro-choice, if its my neighbor pro-choice. My decision and
stand.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Classrooms
|Date: 05 Mar 96 12:57:06
EID:f1ab 20656720
MSGID: 1:352/266 313D25AF
DM> Huzzah for them, say I. The fact that students talk about stuff
DM> is the healthiest thing you could say about our schools. Students
I one hundred percent agree! Hopefully they can learn to wonder, discuss,
and question each others ideas and the emotional attachment they may have
to those ideas without snide remarks, and name calling.
DM> other--that is what being a student is all about. Us WOAs only
DM> object to religious stuff imposed upon them from above (especially
DM> such WOAs as myself, who went through such impositions in public
DM> schools back in the 50s).
I went to school in the 50's began in 55-56. I attended a small school in
Missouri. We discussed our views at recess, lunch, on the bus... everywhere.
We were exposed to (not directly taught, but not interfered with either)
various religious types, besides availablity of books on many religious/mythic
subjects. Hey, we even began to say "under God" in the pledge in about 58,
but it didn't seem opressive to me as a young person. Now, it seems that
if we are going to remove all mention of any religion from the classroom....
you are going to have to remove all the classic myths, any authors views
on religion, lots of poetry, lots of philosophy... a whole range of material.
I still prefer totally availability to information on everything and then
letting people make up their own minds. If children are into a discussion...
perhaps time for the discussion should be given, without any input from
the teacher's point of view. How could that be controlled though?
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Big bird
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:08:30
EID:50f1 20656900
MSGID: 1:352/266 313D25B0
MM> culture? Sadly, I watched a child singing along with Big Bird, "One
MM> of these things. is not like the others. One of these things just
MM> doesn't belong" Scarey thoughts.
I did this as a joke! Actually there are many many people who can't seem
to tell the difference between discrimination and differentiation. They
ten attack one phrase and build a case from it. (Recent response to the
Lion King, which has been posted on another net is of this type of reasoning.)
LB> discrimination that helps
LB> my two year old figure out that crayons are not a snack food.
You mean they're not? My kids ate them despite knowing the difference...
glue and paste and chalk too.
LB> even themost basic life/survival skills. "Discrimination" is merely
Well, I view that as discernment, not discrimination, but I agree that to
be able to tell one thing from another is essential. The only part of the
song that could be used to make a statement is the (One of these things
just doesn't belong.)
LB> See the difference? (G)
Easily and clearly. However I was attempting to show the form of discussion
that can rile up those who look for the simple answer. Rather the if-you-don't-like-it,
censor-it, attitude. I strongly support exposing people to all types of
material and letting them choose their own views, stands, and beliefs.
But, we can't make those decisions in life if the material to learn from
is censored of every connotation that makes somebody uncomfortable. Being
uncomfortable brings understanding at time.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
|Date: 04 Mar 96 17:44:53
EID:76bf 20648d80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a UNREG
:: From: J.j. Hitt To: Damien Wellman Subj: THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ::
DW> That is the one advantage to living in West Virginia.
DW> People playing rap are shot on sight.
JH> I would support a Constitutional Amendment to that effect.
Of course, with the growing popularity of rap, things have been toned down
a
bit - one can sometimes get away with just a flesh wound.
---
ţ TLX v4.00 ţ "Support your local nerd." -- Tom Servo
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 04 Mar 96 17:44:54
EID:603d 20648d80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a UNREG
:: From: J.j. Hitt To: Damien Wellman Subj: Our Daily Bread ::
DW> Just wondering, Sue: Do you know if an ASCII-text version
DW> of the Principia exists?
JH> Yes, it does. But most of the higher wisdom is in the clip-art.
JH> You need the print version.
I know, and I'm trying to find a print copy. But an ASCII version is so
much
easier to insert into messages. :)
DW> If so, where could I get it?
JH> I'll be damned if I can remember where I downloaded my copy, but
JH> the Steve Jackson Games edition can be found in larger bookstores.
Hmm... believe it or not, there may be a bookstore around here I could buy
a
copy from. If nothing else, I could always see about buying mail-order
straight from SJG, I suppose.
---
ţ TLX v4.00 ţ How many Illuminati does it take to change a light bulb?
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Dont have the time.
|Date: 04 Mar 96 17:44:57
EID:a91d 20648d80
TID: FastEcho 1.45a UNREG
:: From: Al Schroeder To: Asmodeus Subj: Dont have the time. ::
AS> appalingly dull Satanic Bible. You are a dullard, an egotist, and your
AS> biggest curse is your own gullibility. Have a nice day. You've been
AS> the best entertainment we have had here lately, and we
AS> ALL--Christians, atheists, Wiccans, Thelemites, and what have
AS> you...have been laughing uproariously at your failed curse(s). Only
AS> Fidonet problems which predated your coming on here (so don't try to
AS> claim credit) kept you from getting the numerous mocking posts I sent
AS> your way. So let me just take this opportunity to tell you what a BOZO
AS> we all regard you as.
Excellent application of napalm there, Al. I should
save this one for future reference. :)
... "If this were an actual film, you would have been entertained."
---
* TLX v4.00 *
~~~ ReneWave v1.01 [NR]
---
* Origin: The Stargate BBS - (304) 453-6625 - Kenova, WV - (1:262/20)
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|From: David Johnston
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Atheist Hypocrisy
|Date: 05 Mar 96 00:07:00
EID:52eb 206500e0
-> On 03-01-96 01:07, David Johnston got back to Styx Allum
->
-> DJ> I don't agree. The commandment is "Thou shalt not covet thy DJ>
-> neighbor's (stuff)". Using shareware without paying for it doesn't
-> DJ> violate that commandment any more than it violates the present
-> laws.
-> I take it that you forgot about, "Though shalt not steal" as
-> well as the admonitions against taking out a loan.
Nope. The concept of intellectual property is fairly recent.
-> DJ> You haven't taken anyone's possessions away from them. The
-> Hebrews DJ> didn't even have the concept of copyright.
-> They didn't even have a concept about the value of Pi, yet you
-> follow their dogma like a new born puppy after a teat.
You are a fool. I never said I followed their dogma. I merely disagree
with the idea that a Christian is being inconsistent by failing to
register their software. But I am not myself a Christian.
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/100
* Origin: Freddy's Place - Edm. AB - 28.8K (403) 456-4241 (1:342/14)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 05 Mar 96 16:34:11
EID:2795 20658440
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 313d8036
REPLY: 1:246/15 313012BE
Fearful that not everyone had yet seen what an idiot he was,
Steve Wallis said "FOF UPDATE, STAAL" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> SW> I doubt it. More like a well established Christian organization
DM> that
DM> SW> has stood its ground when attacked by the whimsical antics of
DM> the
DM> SW> devil and his demons.
DM>
DM> Fascinating. Have you any evidence for the existence of
DM> this devil and/or his demons outside of human imagination? I
DM> presume that you also have some documentation of attacks
DM> being made upon the FOF by said devil and/or demons since
DM> you assert that this has taken place: please present it
DM> here.
DM>
SW> The devil is a manipulater Dan, he masquarades and tries to control
SW> people through deception, lies and trickery. he is the coward of
SW> cowards-once an angel-now nothing.
I asked you for evidence of his existence, not for a
character sketch. Character sketches can--and frequently
have been--written about purely fictional characters. One
may produce such a thing for Huck Finn of Captain Ahab if
one has read the right books. However, no evidence exists
for the existence, past or present, of either Huck or the
Captain.
SW> Did you ever here the tune Stairway
SW> to Heaven? of course you have
No, I have not. I don't listen to shit music. Vivaldi's
"Gloria" I _have_ heard. Got anything to say about it?
SW> -there's a lyric in there that says
SW> "sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven." The devil try's to
SW> camaflouge the minds of people to keep them from seeing
SW> the truth.
More character sketch.
SW> How
SW> can you fight an enemy you cant see?
You develop a means of "seeing" it--if it is there. The
development and use of radar (the British ASDIC) against
night bombings by the Luftwaffe is a good example of this.
But the Luftwaffe was there, however unseen, as evidenced by
both their bombs and by the occasional plane coming down in
flames when the RAF got lucky. Got any such evidence for
your unseen "devil"?
SW> Did you ever see that movie "They Live"?
No. I don't watch shit movies, either. And in any case,
a filmed work of fiction does not qualify as evidence for
the existence of your pet devil.
SW> Its about a counterfit alien
SW> organization
As opposed to a genuine alien organization? Or one
composed of counterfeit aliens (actually just people dressed
up in rubber suits?) Or real aliens forming a bogus
corporation of some sort (MicroSoft comes to mind).
SW> that clever disguises themselves as humans so that nobody
SW> can tell that their there. Only the people who have some special
SW> glasses can see the truth and they end up going to war against the
SW> counterfeit aliens and finally destroy them.
Are you saying that you have some emerald spectacles
that will let us see this devil? Great--the equivalent of
radar. Please post your address so that people here may
request a pair. (I'm sure that they'll be very popular, so
you'd better stock up!)
SW> Like wise the devil has mastered the art of camaflouge but if you dont
SW> have the bliindfolds removed and Christ helping you to see then you
SW> wont know if what I say holds water or not-in fact you'd be non the
SW> wiser.
I see--you don't have any emerald spectacles at
all--only ANOTHER unevidenced being to help us see the first
unevidenced being. Is it unevidenced beings "all the way
down?"
SW> Until everthings explained in the next world but what will
SW> happen to you then?
Great--now you introduce an entire unevidenced world.
Do yourself a favor: go find a nice, fresh dog turd,
preferably from a very large dog. Saw off the top of your
skull and scoop out the gooey stuff inside. Replace the
gooey stuff with the dog turd and cap with the top of your
skull. You will be amazed at how much your IQ will increase.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 07 Mar 96 08:03:25
EID:ce66 20674060
MSGID: 1:123/67 313e98f1
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
03 Mar 96 12:14, quoting George Mooth to All:
GM> WHAT'S NEXT?
Probably some more of this CANNED SPAM that you dump in here.
GM> Peter went out and wept bitterly.
GM> -Luke 22:62
Probably because he could no longer partake of Jess's Son-Of-Man-Tool.
GM> 21:15-17); Judas hanged himself (Mt. 27:5).
Oh? Why can't your bible make up it's mind?
MT 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went
away and hanged himself.
AC 1:18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a
field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines
spilled out. [19] Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called
that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Taking medication
|Date: 06 Mar 96 08:33:26
EID:c036 20664420
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 1379c1c1
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cc6
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to John Prewett:
jp> I don't expect to be responding for at least a couple of months.
FR> Checking yourself into a hospital again, John?
FR> 'Bout fucking time.
The air of reality is cleaner already, as a result.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 05 Mar 96 17:19:00
EID:decf 20658a60
MSGID: 1:3819/163 313D3009
DK>Being so new to this echo, I admit shamefully that I know not the definition
DK>of "fundy". I assume this is a good thing to be, since you obviously
miss m
DK>so much. I cannot fathom the reason for this, as I have basically found
mys
DK>to be a generally UN-liked contributor here. However, I THINK you were
tryi
Well I'm new here to.
DK>basis, and make regular visits to my dentist so he can fix my buck- teeth.
DK>I LOVE ANGELS, TOO!!! There. Happy now? Hmmm... What's that I hear...?
A
DK>rustling amongst the vegetation...?
I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should also
belive for the Bible says they exist.
DK>... COME SAVE ME, ANGELS!!! IT'S A STAMPEDE!!!... ___ Blue Wave/QWK
v2.12
Nice Tagline.
* OLX 2.1 TD * If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny.
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Kenneth Cavness
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Hi
|Date: 05 Mar 96 00:35:06
EID:1933 20650460
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 313d4865
Whilst sleeping soundly, J.J. Hitt said to Kenneth Cavness:
JH> On Mar 02 13:00 96, Kenneth Cavness of 1:382/804 wrote:
JH>> I'm not interested in cooperating. I find pidgeonholes to
JH>> be too confining to be comfortable.
KC> Then I suggest you stop doing it with me, and right fast. I
KC> don't want to "label and classify" you, and building up a
KC> straw man in that regard will cause you to start arguing
KC> with yourself.
JH> Sounds like a bargain. I've tired of you already.
JH> You want body language? I'll give you some: "Kiss my ass."
JH> You may now commence to whineing about ad homiems.
Why on earth for? You only help my point by giving me such a trite
insult.
Please, continue. Tell me about my poor sex life, next. And how I don't
have a life, posting in this medium.
... I don't have a solution but I really admire the problem.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Kenneth Cavness
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: FOF "HATE" 2
|Date: 05 Mar 96 00:36:41
EID:ab41 20650480
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 313d4866
Whilst slicing and dicing, Norbert Sykes said to Kenneth Cavness:
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
NS> Kenneth Cavness > Judith Bandsma : Re: FOF "HATE" 2
KC> At the time, I didn't know where Fire Island, the setting of the play
KC> was. For some reason, I thought it was off the coast of New York. Eugh.
KC> It's off the coast of San Francisco. Sigh. Other than that, I made
a
KC> 78 on the paper (because I got the setting wrong) After seeing the
KC> play, I was amazed at how accurate my review had been.
NS> Uhm, Fire Island is in New York, not California. I live within a
NS> hundred miles of San Francisco and the only islands I've seen off
NS> the coast are Yerba Buena, Alcatraz, North and South Marin Islands,
NS> and some desolate small rocky ones that host a lot of seals.
See my point? =) I still confuse the damn places.
You know how easy it is to confuse the East and West coasts. :P
(sigh)
... Resist everything but temptation.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Kenneth Cavness
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Questor Thews, il est ici aussi!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 00:39:53
EID:dc4e 206504e0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 313d4867
Whilst taking his valium, Fredric Rice said to Kenneth Cavness:
>> 1) Die >> 2) Get a life >> 3) Join the Navy, join the Navy,
>> Join the Navy >> 4) Become a monk >> 5) Become a nun
>> 6) Become Ron Stringfellow.
FR> 'Coulda become a Christian priest and raped with impunity.
kc> I believe I just said that I didn't. (#6)
FR> There's a quote that could land you a lot of trouble. I like
to
FR> comments about Christians who rape unspecific unless I have newspaper
FR> archives which back up the claim. So far as we know Ron has
FR> never been caught.
Well,
1) I'd love to see Ronniemilad try to take me for libel. It'd be an
interesting court case. Of course, he could somehow claim that I
deprived him of a living by taking away his chance for
custom^H^H^H^H^Honverts.
2) I didn't say that he _did_ rape with impunity. I only said I could
have, being a priest, like Ron. HaHA! Loopholes are so fun.
... The wise open their minds, but a fool opens his mouth.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Kenneth Cavness
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Blinded me with scien
|Date: 05 Mar 96 00:49:47
EID:2bef 20650620
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 313d4868
Whilst sleeping soundly, Al Schroeder said to Kenneth Cavness:
MH> Many theists admit that there is no incontrovertible evidence for
MH> God. (As do I.)
KC> Then you concede the debate immediately.
AS> Hmmm. There's an interesting leap in logic. There is no
AS> INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence for an open as opposed to a closed universe
AS> in cosmology (i.e., whether it will expand together or go into a Big
AS> Crunch.). That does not rule out either.
And it also leaves both equally open to debate. Without incontrovertible
evidence for either, both are plausible. The debate is conceded before
ever starting.
AS> Similarly, Micheal's
AS> statement merely said there is no incontrovertible evidence for
AS> God---we can point to many things that indicate such (the anthropic
AS> coincidences, for instance)
Why would these not point to a societal parallel, instead of pointing to
the influence of a god?
AS> but there is nothing cannot be argued about...
Right! That's what makes this sort of thing so much fun. :-)
AS> evidence. So it still leaves the question OPEN...not closed.
Ah. You're right. I apologise for my incorrect use of "concede".
What instead happens is that you're left with "preponderance of
evidence". Evidence becomes all that you have -- and you must amass as
much of it as possible for your point to be proven.
Thanks for pointing out my error.
KC> If the "evidence" you provide is easily controvertable, then that's
KC> your own fault. Something as big and awesome as a god shouldn't be so
KC> hard for you to prove.
AS> Why do I have this vision of intestinal fungi debating the existence
AS> of human beings, all the while living inside the intestines of
AS> one...and not aware of it?
But people claim to be aware of a god. Fundies in particular claim to be
aware of an active god.
KC> Get Kohlberg and Sartre. Read them all. Read them all the way through.
KC> Take notes. Have a dictionary handy, and read each paragraph more than
KC> once. Not because you're an idiot, or even of below average
KC> intelligence, but because you'll most likely need it.
AS> Which particular volumes did YOU like best?
Sartre's _Being and Nothingness_, while for me a very difficult read,
was very enlightening (or rather, unenlightening -- I've rarely found a
philosophy that left more questions unanswered than answered. :-) ). I
also especially liked his _Age of Reason_ series -- while fiction, they
provided an excellent framework for his philosophic setups.
Kholberg, on the other hand, I have only read in compilations and over
the course of research. I cannot for the life of me remember any one
particular volume. He is very prolific, though, and when I last checked,
he was still alive. :) He probably produces quite a bit of material. I'd
love to find some works by him and him alone.
AS> Are you really an existentialist?
Believe it or not, I am.
AS> I wasn't aware there were any pure, Sartreian existentialists
AS> left.
There's very rarely any pure, left anyways, if ever there
were other than the original philosophers. Most of us that study
philosophy in any manner, if only skimming, still take a gestaltic
approach -- if we're intellectually honest at all.
For example, I agree with much of Locke and Hume's interpretations of
the social contract, even though in many instances they wildly
disagreed.
AS> (Did you know that Sartre was related to Albert Schweitzer?)
Why, no! Interesting factoid!
KC> I really don't see how I can discuss things like this with you unless
KC> you actually know my side of the debate without assuming things from
KC> me or others that agree with me. Since you will obviously not believe
KC> anything that we say, perhaps you'll believe those that have some
KC> semblance of authority in the matter.
AS> I'm trying to picture the author of BEING AND NOTHINGNESS, TRUTH AND
AS> EXISTENCE, and THE AGE OF REASON, and his horror at being regarded as
AS> an "authority" on anything.
Which is why I used "some semblance of authority". :-) Hardy seems to
need books to believe something. I provided him with some authors to
start him off.
... *IT IS* documented, look under "For Internal Use Only."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Kenneth Cavness
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: URL!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 00:54:20
EID:725a 206506c0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 313d4869
Whilst sleeping soundly, Al Schroeder said to Kenneth Cavness:
KC> I am fully convinced that there are few second-generation fundies.
KC> Most people born into the churches quickly become disillusioned by
the
KC> hypocrisy.
AS> (Amused smile.) Ever BEEN in a church?
Ummm...like, uhhhh...yeah. I grew up in them. ;)
AS> Especially one that has been there a few years? You will often find
AS> first-generation, second-generation, third-generation families
AS> there.
I see where you got confused (where my writing was too vague for you to
be able to extrapolate my point). I meant to say those in fundamentalist
churches.
AS> I can only conclude that what few churches you have
AS> attended, have been relatively new. (Unless you are using
AS> "fundies" in a narrower sense than most of Holy Smoke...most
AS> here use it in the sense of "Christians", period.
Ummm...no. That's not the way I meant it at all. I've always meant for
"fundie" to mean "fundamentalist", and I'm sure you'll agree that in
actuality very few churches are fundamentalist. (even including the
southern baptists.)
I might be using it in an even more narrow sense, that being
"evangelical". I generally use the moniker "fundie" to refer to
"evangelical" anyways.
AS> Most atheists here argue the exact opposite...that most theists
AS> are that, not out of any honest conviction, but because they
AS> learned it as a child and never questioned what they learned.
There's a very large difference between a "Fundamentalist" and a theist.
A fundamentalist is a very small branch of theism.
... I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks left!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
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|From: Kenneth Cavness
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Re: Second gen. fundies
|Date: 05 Mar 96 00:55:04
EID:7e00 206506e0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 313d486a
Whilst sleeping soundly, Masochistic Maiden said to Kenneth Cavness:
KC> I am fully convinced that there are few second-generation fundies.
KC> Mostpeople born into the churches quickly become disillusioned by the
KC> hypocrisy.
MM> I'd have to say most of the people I know would seem to verify that
MM> suggestion. However, I do know a few who are still following parental
MM> leads in religion, but most of those aren't what I'd call fundies, but
MM> more open minded religious/spiritual persons.
Right. I was speaking ONLY of evangelical fundamentalists.
... "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" - Freud
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx (512)462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: 2 ALIEN AUTOPSY
|Date: 04 Mar 96 07:56:00
EID:def3 20643f00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 18:34, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> to have part 1 on file?
JH> I didn't split that message into parts. It must have happened
DC> this is the part 1 that I didn't get?
DC> "Alien Autopsy" - Blooper List
DC> "Alien Autopsy" Goofs - The Master List
JH> Yes, that is how the message began.
OK, looks like I got it all, though in a fractured packet and
order... Thanks for the help!
... Thrusting in him and having a simply DIVINE relationship--Al Tufano
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:25:00
EID:899d 20644320
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 11:50, Brad Jackson got back to All
BJ> The bible is inspired by God!
Logic like that must make your head spin.
BJ> 2 Timothy 3:16
BJ> All scripture given by [inspiration] of God, and
BJ> profitable for doctrine,
Of course it's profitable. Where do you think that they get the
money to build those big churches.
BJ> We don't have to look any further then this to find the truth.
And it's doubtful you ever will look further than the end of you leash.
... "Christianity is for those who can't accept reality." -Styx Allum
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 08:47:00
EID:3554 206445e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 16:50, Ed Dutkiewicz got back to Preston Simpson
AG> Brother, they have carbon dated contemporary things to millions of
AG> years old. Just takle God at His Word.
And that god fumbles his word a lot. Something about not able to
carry the ball well because he has holes in his hands.
PS>No, they haven't. C-14 dating is used on organic materials and never
for
PS>dates into the millions of years. They leave that to the uranium-lead
or
ED> Carbon-14 dating is used to date "recent" objects. Recent meaning no
ED> more than 50,000 years.
Preston is aware of that.
ED> example, the grass near a highway always shows that its millions years
ED> old, when one uses carbon 14 dating. This is due to the burning of
ED> fossil fuels which contributes to a higher ratio of "old" carbon(14)
ED> dioxide to carbon-12 dioxide.
Nope, it don't work that way. It would test to be far younger, as
C-14 breaks down into C-12. A high concentration of C-14 would make
a sample look far younger than it really is. That's one reason that
more than one sample test is used, as well as other dating techniques
to ensure that a proper range exists for the test results.
... Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:04:00
EID:68ee 20644880
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 10:39, Andrew Masten got back to Jim Germiquet
AM> Thats a good point Jim. It's normal for intelligent man to create
AM> intelligent
AM> things, like a computer. But how did mechanistic impersonal processes
AM> create personal moral intelligent people?
In your case, the jury voted against you.
Nature doesn't give a shit as to what a species evolves into, only
that the species survives in the nitch that it finds. If it is
well suited, it thrives. If not, it either evolves some more or
it dies out.
The only "mechanism" involved is survival of the species. It
is handled in various ways, such as a large production of offspring
with the hopes that some may survive or a symbiotic relationship
in which 2 different species help each other, etc. Yes, whether you
like it or not, there are different species that perform deeds
that aid in the survival of each separate one.
Your mistake is in thinking that nature actually is conscious. It
isn't. It is only your projection of a consciousness on nature
that makes it into the god you think exists.
... Nature never breaks her own laws. - Leonardo Da Vinci
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: flood
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:21:00
EID:703d 20644aa0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 01:05, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> you can consign me to the ninth circle of hell.)
DC> To make your life a bit more interesting, perhaps I will.
AS> circle, the lake of ice, howabout changing the rules and sending all
AS> the nymphomaniacs there too? THEY'D keep me warm...
AS> Oh.
AS> HI, Barb! Oh, just that dull Holy Smoke echo, nothing that would
Good think I gave you a conscience, isn't it. Hope you remembered
to have configured your system with "Boss Mode".
DC> Which is true. However, what if I really am the one true god and
DC> I'm watching you praying to a false god?
AS> Then shatter my disbelief. Turn water into wine, walk on water,
AS> emerge from my computer, die and come back to life.
That would be far too easy. You should not depend on evidence for
your belief in me. You need faith. Only in faith will you really
understand my true power. Those that require such signs are weak
in spirit. You aren't weak. You know you need to believe.
AS> kamikaze pilots didn't claim that the Emperor reached out and plucked
DC> Still doesn't matter. They believed him god, just as you believe
DC> that Jesus was god. No evidence is required in a belief system.
AS> Welllll....although that might be true,
But it is true. They died for their Emperor God. It is documented
by both the Japanese as well as independent Allied Forces witnesses.
AS> Christianity, unlike most
AS> religions or mythologies, actually DOES claim to be started by
AS> witnesses to a miracle, whose beliefs were taken as fact by some
I take it that you realize that Kamikaze means "Divine Wind". It
is the typhoon created by the Emperor God to sink the Chinese
invasion fleet. Yes, that miracle lives on in all of the Japanese
Emporer Gods.
DC> After all, no man would willing die for a false belief.
AS> Thousands die in holy wars. Fanaticism by itself is not an indicator
AS> of truth. But...multiple witness is at least an indicator of truth.
And, just how many witnessed the original Divine Wind? It so
affected China that they never again launched an invasion against
the Japanese. That's one great indicator of a Divine Truth.
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:37:00
EID:578f 20644ca0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 18:47, Michael Hardy got back to Dan Ceppa
MH> fact that people who lived very close in time and space to the event
MH> believed it.
DC> They "*believed* it." A belief does not fucking make it true, You
DC> should know that, as you don't believe in a global flood. Why
DC> don't you BELIEVE in that, as others have and do BELIEVE in it?
MH> OK, I'll rephrase.
MH> The resurrection of Jesus must have really happened, because people
"Must have"? Got evidence to support that claim?
MH> who lived at the same time and in the same place knew it happened. And
Then, Mikey, provide the independent testimony of Romans that where
in the area that witnessed that "miracle". Should be easy, after
all, the event "must have happened".
MH> anyone with an IQ over 20 -- which probably leaves you out, I know --
Which only goes to show how little you you know. Your sugar coating is
wearing rather thin, Mikey. The bitterness inside you is oozing out
through dozens of open sores.
MH> realizes that people who live at the time and place an event happens
MH> know more about it than people 1,900+ years later thousands of miles
Too bad that the only "evidence" you have comes from just your
little book. Even the Jews in the region at the time of your
claimed event disavow it.
Amazing, isn't it... The primary military and political power
in the region says nothing about it, including the xification.
Then, too, the primary religious power in the same region has
nothing to mention on the subject of a claimed ressurection.
Makes you wonder just how "earth-shaking" that event you claim
really was.
MH> Happy?
You aren't. You are right back where you started, with nothing
but a *belief*.
Now, would you like to rephrase it yet again? It's getting rather
comical and I enjoy the laughs.
... Truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
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SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:40:00
EID:1e83 20644d00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 13:24, David Worrell got back to Kenneth Cavness
ns>> God sent 'angles'? How did he know they
ns>> were the 'right angles' to send?
FR>> He hasn't a 'ray' of hope of answering that.
KC> You really have crossed the line. This entire argument is
KC> perpendicular to the original speaker's intent.
DW> Et tu, Kenn?
He is just off on a tangent. Has something to do with circles,
as you may know.
Care for a peice of Pi, chocolate of course!
... 666 ??? I thought this was the 7-11 !!??
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Heavenly Father
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:46:00
EID:aa34 20644dc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 11:51, Brad Jackson got back to All
BJ> God is a spirit.
Try turning on the light and he'll stop scaring you.
Now, just how old are you that you are afraid of things that
go bump in the night?
... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 04 Mar 96 09:53:00
EID:9e72 20644ea0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 04:07, Al Schroeder got back to Rick Mcfarlane
RM> didn't really curse J.J., b) the curse was just starting to grow, and
RM> c) he missed and hit Al's drier.
AS> The whole thing should be archived into a FAQ or something.
Better yet:
If you missed it, there's an Al Schroeder, et al Class Action
Suit in the works to go after Ass-mo-diddle!
... Centurion to Jesus: Drop the cross again & you're outta da parade!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:04:00
EID:8b49 20645080
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 07:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> See my other post on deep fried watermelon... Do NOT! attempt
DC> that a home!! :)
AS> Deep fried watermelon? Sounds like something that would be a Southern
AS> dish, if anywhere...
To my knowledge, it doesn't exist outside of my imagination! I
made that up one day trying to see how well someone knew how to
cook. Turns out she didn't!
Now, deep fried mashed potatoes is real. Very tastey, I might add.
Had that up in Montreal. Took me 2 months to figure out how to
make them right.
Try it some time. When you get upset with the results, I'll
provide you with the secret that only God Dan and a Chef in
Montreal have!
... All Scottish cuisine is based on a dare.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Mark staal the lump
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:07:00
EID:e053 206450e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 04:06, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> may have grounds for a class action suit against said Ass-more-diddly.
AS> Or his parents. How much you want to bet he's living off them? Didn't
AS> he say he was about eighteen? (Physical age. Mental age a little
AS> younger, about fifteen, I think.)
You over estimate the mental age of the Curse-Giver by at least
15 years!
... "Hellmark---when you care enough to send the very damnation!": Al S.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Missing Child Alert - Sat
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:14:00
EID:c79d 206451c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E37
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 15:00, J.j. Hitt got back to All
-> Re: Missing Child Alert - Sat
JH> MISSING CHILD ALERT
JH> )\ _.___._ /(
JH> /:|'##666##'|:\ Name: Satan
JH> / __ __ \ Date of Birth: October 23, 4004 BC
JH> : __~\ /~__ : Race: Mytholical
JH> ( ( .\ \|/ /. ) ) Hair: none
JH> | \_~_) . (_~_/ | Eyes: red, glowing
JH> (._ ~ /_\ ~ _.)
JH> \\_._._._._// Last seen in the company of Jesus
JH> \\V V V V// Christ, a convicted felon from
JH> \\.^.^.// the middle east. Satan was wearing
JH> (_____) red leotards with a matching cape.
Now I recognize him! (just love what my OLR text editor does
to graphics!)
He's hiding with his parents under the assumed name of "Asmodeus",
aka, Ass-more-diddly-shit.
... I am JFK of Borg...Prepare for my return.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Salvation
|Date: 04 Mar 96 10:29:00
EID:6856 206453a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E38
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 11:52, Brad Jackson got back to All
BJ> What did the bible say, when it came to salvation?
The bible doesn't talk, unless you pull the string on the
Say 'n' Tell version that you need.
... Meaningless gods cannot grant what they do not have.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Tithe = extortion
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:53:00
EID:6fdf 206466a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E39
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 00:42, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> They call those "boilermakers," Dan. I think they were conceived
DC> True, but they drank them differently... They drank all of the
DC> hard stuff first, then started on the beer!
MB> As I recall, it was required that you down the hard stuff in
MB> one belt, then do pretty much the same thing with the beer,
MB> using it as a chaser.
That is true, but they first chased the hard stuff with more
hard stuff until the bottles were empty. Then (and only then!) they
got into the 'fridge and started on Dad's beer!
... A countryman between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 04 Mar 96 12:56:00
EID:f187 20646700
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E3A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 11:51, Joanna Amren got back to Masochistic Maiden
-> I might be interested in how, and why you have changed. I once was a
JA> "Got better" is a good way to describe it yes. How I changed is
JA> really simple. I started thinking.:)
That's why education is such a big issue. It's the reason that
"creationism" is being pushed to be taught as "science" alongside
evolution.
BTW, keep up the good work and never stop learning.
... Only the educated are free -- Epictetus
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 04 Mar 96 13:01:00
EID:7eeb 20646820
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E3B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 07:04, Al Schroeder got back to Norbert Sykes
NS> and slept around who also got elected president was a mark of
NS> success! };)
AS> Just because we get around...
AS> (Talkin' 'bout our generation...)
AS> I agree completely, being one of the few of my generation who can
AS> REMEMBER the sixties.
You where either too young, too old, or a nerd!
And, yes, I saw the Who 2 times, though I only admit to being at
the first concert, as the second one stunk...
... "There'll be a bathroom on the right": CCR
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Terry Liberty-parker
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 13:09:00
EID:ae2f 20646920
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E3C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 12:22, Terry Liberty-parker got back to Kevin D. Mckenzie
TL>Are you able to post something in addition to your prejudice on this
TL>issue?
KDM> Prejudice? I just don't like *you*.
TL> Since you don't actually know me you are demonstrating IGNORANT
TL> prejudice.
Yes, that he is.
I have to concur that Kevin is biased against ignoramuses such as yourself.
... You were born stupid and have been losing ground ever since.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 04 Mar 96 14:14:00
EID:9c8e 206471c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E3D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 06:03, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> my old HD crashed. I took the program and database off to make
AS> Oh, I never kept my list of comics on the computer. I knew it fairly
AS> well without a list.
Just how *few* comics have you collected?
AS> you find or send will be a bonus, but don't go out of your way.
I'll get around to it soon, as it's been o/l for some time. I
know have some spare disk space and it would be nice to over-use
it an justify another HD!
DC> really doesn't mean anything if you have never read it!
AS> What I get, I read. Otherwise I don't get it.
I bought a couple of "first editions", just because. Read them,
but never bought any others,as the story lines were poor.
AS> Thor beat Captain Marvel
DC> You sure you have the right characters? I thought both were Marvel...
AS> Well, you see, Lee and Gene Colan's Captain MAr-VEll was the SECOND
AS> Captain Marvel. The first was a kid named Billy Batson who said a
Sorta remember that, but I don't think I have any of the originals...
AS> Mercury. He even outsold Superman in his prime, in the forties, and
AS> Superman SUED him as a rip-off.
DC comics, or the "real" Superman???
DC> No one beats the Surfer, 'cept Galactus...
AS> Too true. Although Mephisto almost did a couple of times...
The Surfer always sent him back to Hell, though. (to stay
on topic!)
AS> Hydra, fighting Super-Soldier though...
Another new one... I haven't bought any new comics in over
6 years now. :(
DC> if I entered the data correctly!
AS> See? I'm helping you test your inventory skills....
AS> Thanks again. No hurry, though.
We'll have to really compare notes some time. Besides the comics,
I've got a fairly good collection of old MAD Magazines as well
as a fairly extensive set of the 8x11 B&W Conans... Few, if any,
duplicates in those, though!
... Illuminatus vehicles provided by the Fnord Motor Company.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 04 Mar 96 14:25:00
EID:68ee 20647320
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E3E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 04:08, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
AM> care to show me where in Christ's teachings you find justification
AM> for mass murder?
DC> "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign
DC> over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)
AM> one who has ten pounds.' 25 (And they said to him, "Lord, he has ten
AM> pounds!') 26 "I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given;
AM> but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken
AM> away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be
AM> king over them--bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.'"
AM> In context, Christ is teaching that his disciples, are to produce
AM> results with what God has given them.
Such as the results that Wm Shakespeare uses for his anti-Semitism
in the _Merchant of Venice_?
AM> reject Christ will face judgement after there days here on earth.
Take you bigoted religion and stuff it.
AM> If Christ were teaching judgement here on earth, why upon His
AM> arrest, he told Peter to put away his sword?
Why did you godling tell his desciples to take up the sword
prior to that engagement?
AM> That those who live by
AM> the sword, will die by the sword.
It's all in your religious beliefs. Too bad your religion has
never honored them without a sword pointed at the throats of
the non-believers.
... Christianity: Don't underestimate the power of the farce. gr
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 04 Mar 96 14:28:00
EID:703d 20647380
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E3F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 03:00, Al Schroeder got back to Roger Hunter
AS> The literal DISCIPLES---the Twelve, James, those five hundred Paul
AS> mentioned, Mary Magdelene...saw a physical event.
And, just how many physical events have you witnessed that include
bringing a truly dead man back to life? Even your own bible does
not provide a single witness to the event, only an empty tomb.
... "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" - Ockham
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 04 Mar 96 14:44:00
EID:8b49 20647580
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E40
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 07:01, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> True. And I think part of it was Jewish upbringing...that it was hard
AS> for them to conceive of a self-Resurrection.
DC> Why would at least John not be able to conceive of it, as he was
DC> supposedly a desciple and witness?
AS> I don't believe (or at least I don't recall one way or the other, or
AS> through glancing through the latter chapters of John's Gospel) that
AS> John comments one way or the other, as to whether Jesus raised Himself
AS> or whether God raised Him.
Yet, you just claimed that a "witness" could not conceive of that,
due to his religious upbringing...
AS> But in either case...Jews are brought up
AS> (at least in the first century) that certain things can ONLY be done
AS> by God, such as forgiving sins.
And, just why did god lie to them and not tell them the truth about
who he was and what he could do? Why did he keep "His Choosen
People" in the dark?
AS> implications of what Jesus said sunk through. I would be the first to
AS> admit that the Trinity was both a political compromise and a way to
AS> make sense of some of Jesus' words ("who sees me, sees the Father",
AS> for instance.)
And, Al, that is what it is, nothing more, nothing less. You
really have learned something here, haven't you!
Then again, you attempt to answer the following querry that
was directed at Mcabee...
DC> Jesus praying?" After all, he prays to god far more than once
DC> in the gospels.
AS> Couple of answers for that one. When God was incarnated as Jesus, in
AS> my view, it is clear that He was not omniscient
Then, Al, he could not be god. That precludes what you view a
god to be and makes any statement from your "human god" to be
suspect, as he did not have all of his godly faculties in full
operation.
AS> Father") totally, although He did know many things denied in us. You
AS> cannot fit an infinite amount of knowledge into one human skull, and
An omnipotent god can do anything, can't he? Or, can he?
AS> there was no need for Jesus to know the depth of the solid-oxygen
AS> snowfall on Pluto to carry out His earthly mission. The Scriptures
No one at the time questioned him on that point. Yet, you not only
have the knowledge of the snowfall, you have the knowledge of Pluto.
Can it be that you know more than your god?
AS> speak of the Son not wanting to hold equality with God but descending
AS> into the form of man...a step down, as it were. Nor is there any
That's strange... Many xians look a man as a step up. Perhaps
we should look at it all from the basis of a neutral source:
Nature.
AS> Later, of course, He went back into the Godhood, in my view...as my
AS> fictional nanorobot might pour into my brain all its experiences.
Yet, Al, as a "mere mortal", you know of Pluto. Think about it...
... Doing away with God (is) to cease to be a man; and become superman.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Many Gods and Godesses
|Date: 04 Mar 96 14:52:00
EID:f6df 20647680
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E41
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 06:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> he was making a deafening Odin. I'm trying to teach my speaking son
AS> manners, too...to say "ma'am" to ladies and "Aesir" to gentlemen.
DC> Loki, Loki fine... But my fingers are getting Thor from all this
DC> typing. Yours Tew?
DC> If we keep this up it will be Frigga mess.
AS> Well, we'll have to Sif through the problems, and not let it get to
AS> us. I have plenty of hair, but I hear worry will make you Balder.
Well, just once more into the Freya, an Wo-dins to you...
After all, it's just actors, we're Hamdahls for sure.
Catch a rainbow and make a bridge out of it. Then come up with the
cheer for its sucess: "I holler, you holler, we all Vahalla for
ice cream!"
... "I missed being god by one vote!" Odin
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 04 Mar 96 14:56:00
EID:a606 20647700
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E42
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 05:09, Al Schroeder got back to Judith Bandsma
AS> You may be interested in knowing there is now a bill pending in the
AS> Tennessee state senate making it against the law to teach evolution
AS> as fact, not theory. After making idiots of ourselves during the
AS> Scopes trial, they're trying it again...
And, from what you are saying, they are trying to make a monkey
out of you... (very wry G)
AS> against the law to teach the heliocentric theory as anything but a
AS> theory, in hopes of letting people see how ridiculous this is. And
Is the general populace educated enough to know the truth? (serious
querry here)
... "Truth through superior ignorance": The religious way!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 04 Mar 96 15:04:00
EID:be00 20647880
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E43
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 05:07, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Although we've fond a formula to get the burning smell out of the
AS> few clothes we DID recover.
AS> Hoo boy. I think it's five tablespoons of trisodium phosphate,
AS> mixed with your regular detergent, and a cup of concentrated Lysol.
Thanks, saved it to file and will pass it on... hopefully when
not really necessary!
AS> Asmodeus? I might believe he is an invisible horse's ass...
As he looks like he's taken a powder, you may be right.
DC> _Candyman_ Very good! Lots of BG&G and a pretty good story
AS> original HALLOWEEN, or THE HAUNTING OF HILL HOUSE.
For a good older diversion into fright, try the _Haunting_
Haven't seen it scine I was about 14, and it was, at least at
the time, rather scary. Then again, the _Exorcist_ was when
I first saw it, and it was mild the second time around...
... +Origin: PAREGORIC NETWORK: No gut-rumbling allowed in church!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: WHO CARES?
|Date: 04 Mar 96 16:29:00
EID:a6ca 206483a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E44
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 00:05, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Well, I am not his keeper. But I made the best offer I could. I
And he chose to ignore you gracious offer!
DC> He may just be a troll, but he does profess to be a True Xian.
AS> True. And I give him that. If we only include perfect Christians as
AS> Christians, then nobody comes to Church.
Pehaps that's a plus on his side!
AS> Including me. Maybe ESPECIALLY me.
Which is the problem with xianity. It requires perfection which
is not attainable, even by its god. Sisyphus would feel like
he had an easy task compared to that which xianity requires.
DC> Nice to see that you have at least taken him to task for his
DC> rather brazen attempt to continue to go against his precepts.
AS> I think it is because computers and software are so relatively new.
Computers were first used when a sentient brain first started
to think. The software, though rather crude, was self-replicating
and intuitive. Guess you could call it the original model for
AI. <-- That's an "i" not "a", Al! Don't want you to get a
swelled head! ....
AS> The ethical standards seem more elastic.
They have to be. After all, the environment does change. The
hard part is to keep adapting to it. What worked 2,000 ya has
little bearing on the present. The future will only be there
for this species if it can survive the present.
AS> Besides, if he really looked around, he could find an older
AS> mailreader that didn't ANNOUNCE it was past the time...there are some
Thing is that he requested me to pay for it. Yet, at the same
time, he condemns me to hell because I don't follow his beliefs.
As per another post, he should be grateful that I'm not a vengeful
god. If I was, I'd make him live in eternity with himself as
his only company. }:-)
... Our world: a 8000 mile in diameter spherical pile of dirt
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 05 Mar 96 08:12:00
EID:2284 20654180
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E45
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 07:51, Steve Wallis got back to Kevin D. Mckenzie
KD> So will a 9mm. What's your point?
SW> Funny. Point is-Focus on the Family is rooted in Christ. There's not
a
SW> gun powerful enough to destroy it or knock it down.
Typical xian response: Equate any and everything with violence
and the use of it.
Kill any doctors lately, Steve?
... +Origin: PAUL HILL, NETWORK! Killing people for an all-loving Jesus!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 05 Mar 96 08:32:00
EID:9e3b 20654400
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E46
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-02-96 12:08, George Mooth got back to All
GM> THE KING COULD
But the Queen told him to go beat off instead.
... Fundys: 'possum-like creatures re-born dead on the side of the road.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 05 Mar 96 08:39:00
EID:ab60 206544e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E47
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 21:03, Michael Hardy got back to Martin Goldberg
MG> slaves by making the Egyptians immobile for a time until they got away?
MG> Why did innocent people, not really responsible for Phaorh's decisions
MG> have to die?
MH> No one is "innocent." All have sinned.
Very convenient for your god, isn't it, Mikey. Make it so all
have sinned and he gets away with murder.
Your hateful religion uses that tool all too well. It first
tells people that they have a disease that they never knew about
and goes on its merry way, selling the cure. All it costs you
is 10% of your cash and 100% of your brain.
... +Origin: PROCAINE HYDROCHLORIDE NETWORK: Numb brains for Jesus!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it eith
|Date: 05 Mar 96 08:43:00
EID:fbc9 20654560
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E48
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 22:55, Kenneth Mcabee got back to Sean Mccullough
SM> Otherwise, you CONTINUE to REMAIN a fraud.
KM> Tell God that.
Your god's a fraud.
Feel better now?
... When your IQ rises to 28, sell.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 05 Mar 96 08:49:00
EID:b63a 20654620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E49
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 20:59, Michael Hardy got back to Martin Goldberg
MH> appear in any manuscripts until the Middle Ages. It was not part of
MH> the gospel as originally written, and is therefore not Scripture.
Got a copy of an original manuscript?
MH> The King James translators didn't know this.
Why not, Mikey? Were they hiding something from us, or was
something purposely being hidden from them?
... Fundy Logic: Lie 1 + Lie 2 + Lie 3 = "God's Truth"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Abortion
|Date: 05 Mar 96 09:23:00
EID:b719 20654ae0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E4A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-24-96 09:26, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
CM> No, I said it was a possibility, not fact.
DC> Now, do explain why no dinosaurs were placed on your silly little
DC> mythical boat.
SA> Hell, I'd like to know how they expected humans to co-exist with
SA> the likes of Tyrannosarus, Velociraptor, Utahraptor, Deinonychus,
"It was a kinder, gentler word back then, with a thousand points
of light,"
most of which was showing through the holes in those dinosaurs' victims...
... Veni, Vidi, _Velociraptor_....I came, I saw, I shredded.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Paul Churchill
|Sub: Re: Epilepsy
|Date: 05 Mar 96 09:26:00
EID:69b2 20654b40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E4B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 16:44, Paul Churchill got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Also, is there another Echo that may be more appropriate for
PC> I know there was a Fido epilepsy..I think its still arround.
Thanks! I found it. It's in the Fido list as "Neurology".
... "Man has the one true religion. Several of them!" -- Twain
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: Re: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 05 Mar 96 09:31:00
EID:2284 20654be0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E4C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-01-96 07:41, Steve Wallis got back to Don Martin
DM> Fascinating. Have you any evidence for the existence of
DM> this devil and/or his demons outside of human imagination? I
SW> The devil is a manipulater Dan,
He's "Don". I'm Dan, God Dan to you.
SW> he masquarades and tries to control
SW> people through deception, lies and trickery.
Sure sounds just like what you have been spoonfed to believe about
that bible you worship.
SW> "sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven." The devil try's to
SW> camaflouge the minds of people to keep them from seeing the truth. How
Just like your religion blinds you from the truth.
SW> organization that clever disguises themselves as humans so that nobody
SW> can tell that their there.
You belong on the IdiotsUFO Echo. You will fit right in.
... "Sa-tan's Lucky Charms....they're magically suspicious!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:41:00
EID:366d 20656d20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E4D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-26-96 18:55, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> Mm. The major difference, I think, is that parliamentary systems
SA> generally support more parties (ie, more parties have a chance of
DC> That is in a way a plus, but it can result in a rather fractured
SA> minority government. (One in which the winning party got more
SA> votes total than any one other, but more people actually voted for
That's similar to what can happen here, though it's been quite
some time since there was a strong 3rd party running. Ross Perot
came close, until he shot both of his feet off.
DC> Now, what constitutes a who becomes PM? Is it via a majority,
DC> or is it just the leader of a plurality winner?
SA> Problems arise if the party leader doesn't win a seat in
SA> Parliament - they run for election to a seat in the House, just
Sounds more like that would be a big embarrassment to the party
that selected their leader!
DC> there are a lot of local/state referendums.
SA> Hm. My understanding is that questions are attached to the
SA> regular "who you gonna vote for" sheet. Our referendums tend to
SA> come seperately from regular elections.
The referendums are set to coincide with any election, but they
get hot and heavier during presidential election years.
DC> lesser of 2 we-evils.
SA> Hehehehe. Yes, I can see that. :) It is kind of depressing,
SA> though, when the country that holds the most power over the world
SA> elects its leaders with less than a 50% turnout.
Worse is the fact that this country prides itself on setting the
standard for the democratic countries.
... We're from Washington. We came to help ourselves to everything!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Electoral College
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:47:00
EID:4d19 20656de0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E4E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-26-96 18:55, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> It sounds vaguely sinister and cabalistic, though.
DC> Close... In the early days of the country, it made sense. The
DC> local people vote for their representatives to the Electoral
[..]
DC> with the electronic media, it has long since passed it's usefulness.
SA> Mm. Yes, I can see where that makes sense.
SA> I was, in fact, wondering about that - what if the College members
SA> said to hell with it, and voted for whoever THEY wanted in?
In some states, they still can, though most have their delegates
locked in for at least one round of voting. I'm not sure if there
are any states that currently split their electoral votes based
on the split of the popular vote.
last of those was just a few months ago (October) and was "non" by
a very, VERY close margin (less than 1%.) Scary.
Everyone was watching the outcome of that one...
... "I know I'm mentally healthy, the voices told me so." Phil Morrison
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: perservere [2/2]
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:54:00
EID:9964 20656ec0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E4F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-26-96 19:21, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> That's why the Supreme Court actually works rather well. One
DC> of the most amazing justices was Earl Warren. He was chosen to
DC> give political favors but actually voted his conscience. That's
SA> I'm a bit wary of politicians "voting their conscience". The last
SA> time Parliament voted on whether or not to bring back capital
You are probably right on that. I think a more accurate view
would have been that he voted for the Constitution rather than
for the political favors he was expected to provide.
SA> wishes. [Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the worst offenders swing
SA> - like Clifford Olsen, who murdered a dozen children and extorted
SA> $100,000 to reveal where he buried the bodies and is now
Though I'm against capital punishment, it's animals like him that
allow me to make exceptions to that rule.
SA> never be rehabilitated, and the money spent making their prison
SA> lives comfortable and safe could be better spent on health care or
I'd prefer to see a work or starve camp, something along the
lines of _Escape from New York_.
DC> was the song written for Nixon: _Jail for the Chief_.
SA>
SA> ROFL! I remmeber the joke, too, that the Beatles' "Fool on the
SA> Hill" was written for Nixon, as well. :)
If it wasn't it sure could have been!
SA> ... "Mein Fuehrer! I can WALK!" - Dr. Strangelove
Got any more of them stashed away?
... "Bother", said Pooh, as he saw the mushroom cloud.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michele Stewart
|Sub: good knives
|Date: 05 Mar 96 20:49:00
EID:c9ca 2065a620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89380E50
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 02-10-96 12:23, Michele Stewart got back to Dan Ceppa
-> Re: good knives
MS> The problem is not that taxes don't help, but that government borrows
MS> from one pocket to support another. Florida lottery proceeds were to
go
Michelle,
I've got a Netmail to send back, but I don't have your Fido
address!
Netmail has a bad habit of not attaching an origin line...
TTYL
... The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 05 Mar 96 05:54:24
EID:2236 20652ec0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 313cf18d
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31384b01
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
DW> 27 Feb 96 08:32, Andrew Masten wrote to Dan Ceppa:
AM> people? No, Dan. We do what Christians did 2000 years ago. We feed
AM> the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the destitue. We outreach
AM> to those in prison, minister to women and children in temporary
AM> shelters.
DW> *After* you build a nice, big church building. *After* you pay your
DW> minister to do what he should do out of the kindness of his heart.
DW> *After* you make payments on your new car, the mortgage on your pricey
DW> home, the payments on your credit cards, etc.
DW> Got to take care of #1 first, right?
Your just projecting your own nature into someone else.
AM> And we do it at a cost effectiveness that would put our
AM> government to shame. Our church is supporting a ministry to
AM> Russia.
DW> Our government is feeding two-thirds of Russia. Did you have a point
DW> to make?
I'm talking about our welfare system that spends 80% on administrative
costs and 20% actually gets in the hands of the recipients. Thats
not cost effective.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 05 Mar 96 06:05:33
EID:f0c2 206530a0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 313cf18e
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3138ab5e
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Andrew Masten <=-
AM>-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> DW> 23 Feb 96 09:47, Andrew Masten wrote to Dan Ceppa:
AM> AM> Evidence for fine tuning of universe.
AM> DW> This again?
AM> DW> Did you figure out all the parts that confused you?
AM> DW> Here, let's make sure you actually *understand* what you claim to
be
AM> DW> evidence, ok?
AM> If you understand it well enough to refute it, then do so.
KC> [deletia]
KC> Andrew, you do realise that in sidestepping his demand that you
KC> explain how this is so, you are stuffing your credibility down the
KC> drain. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about,
KC> and are just blowing smoke out of your ass.
Nonsense Kenneth. It is David Worrel who is blowing smoke. He is side-
stepping the issue, and you bought into it.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 05 Mar 96 06:28:39
EID:f56a 20653380
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 313cf18f
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 8936120A
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 02-29-96 07:50, Andrew Masten got back to Kevin D. Mckenzie
KDM> Because we aren't making the claims.
AM> You claim that were here by natural causes apart from God.
DC> Seems that there is a "tad" more evidence that supports those
DC> natural causes than there is the shows a "god" exists.
I haven't seen anyone bother to cite evidence of how the universe self
assembled out of atoms, and then atoms ultimately self assembled into
man. Yeah, I sure would like to see that evidence!!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
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SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 05 Mar 96 06:35:15
EID:2e8c 20653460
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 313cf190
REPLY: 1:116/19 048682A2
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> Here is a list of some philosophical presuppositions of science.
AM> 1. The existence of a theory-independent external world
AM> 2. The orderly nature of the world
AM> 3. The knowability of the external world
AM> 4. The existence of truth
AM> 5. The laws of logic
AM> 6. The reliability of our cognitive and sensory facilities to
AM> serve as truth gatherers and a source of justified beliefs in
AM> our intellectual environment.
AM> 7. The adequacy of language to describe the world.
AM> 8. The existence of values used in science(e.g. test fairly,
AM> report honestly)
AM> 9. The uniformity of nature and induction
AM> 10. The existence of numbers
AS> Though it is true much of philosophy can be vain exposition, one must
AS> never forget that science is a BRANCH of philosophy. That without
AS> philosophy, science would have never evolved.
AS> In other words...I agree. Many of the above presuppositions are
AS> really axioms which cannot be proven.
AM> It would be hard to imagine a mathematical formula that proves
AM> numbers are real! I think science excels in areas where classical
AM> experiments can be conducted. In other areas I think they reach
AM> beyond their scope.
AS> Although too often philosophy can be a quagmire of semantics. Science
AS> earns one's respect by being one of the few branches of philosophy
AS> that show RESULTS, but one must never forget there are some
AS> philosophical assumptions underlying it.
True enough. Some philosophy is pure hogwash.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 05 Mar 96 08:00:08
EID:2674 20654000
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 313cf191
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3138ac50
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Andrew Masten <=-
AM>-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> AM> ashamed to be apart of it. My life has meaning and direction. I
have
AM> KC> Do tell us. What meaning and direction do you have in your life,
that
AM> KC> we do not?
AM> I made that statement regarding myself exclusively, it was the lack
of
AM> direction I had, without reference to others.
KC> Unless you were performing an act of mental masturbation, you had
KC> a reason for stating that your life has meaning and direction. This
KC> was in refutation to an atheist. You tried to imply that you had
KC> meaning and direction in your life that atheists would not have.
KC> So, do tell us. What meaning and direction do you have in your life,
KC> that we do not?
If I told you I used to smoke pot, would it in your mind, mean that I
think everyone is a pot smoker?
If you really want to have a discussion, why don't you tell me some
reasons why you think were here by natural processes and I'll tell you
why I think we were created by God.
there is.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Viability
|Date: 05 Mar 96 08:31:00
EID:2499 206543e0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 313cf192
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89361216
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 02-29-96 08:41, Andrew Masten got back to Karl Schneider
KS> WAITAFUCKINGMINNIT....if he was 'innocent' why was he 'punished'???
AM> He took our punisment upon Himself so we could be declared
AM> 'innocent'. Christ said himself He came to give his life a ransom for
AM> many.
DC> And, having that ransom in your pocket, you proceed to persecute
DC> all that don't follow you hatred. How convenient.
Who, when and where am I persecuting someone Dan. Is there some reason
you feel Christians hate you? You think I hate you? I don't even know
you.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Annette Spence
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 05 Mar 96 17:41:46
EID:4e18 20658d20
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
AS> Bonhoeffer perhaps? (Not sure of the spelling.) Priest who wrote about
AS> "cheap grace" and that one must fight for justice in this world, and
was
AS> imprisoned and eventually killed by Hitler?
wow...an essay....you spent some time on this didn't you? You were right
by
the way. I was wondering if anyone would guess the actual name of the person
I threw out. I personally feel that this whole question is one that any
thinking Christian must struggle with. To just say "we must NOT resist
authority, for it IS authority" is wrong. But to say "we MUST resist
authority, because it is not of God" is wrong too. I truly believe that
it
is up to the Christian to pray, and heed what God is saying to him and not
just blindly follow a group. From what I have read the church in Germany
was way too willing to just follow along with how things went. That was
what Hitler wanted. By the time they figured it out, they were being
imrisoned and persecuted themselves. Bowing to Hitler's wishes and
kowtowing gained them noting in the end.
AS> Be that as it may...I think a Christian, despite the injunction to
"obey
AS> your rulers", cannot contenance obeying a law that manifestly DEFIES
that
AS> of God. That until that line is breached, he is to respect authority,
but
AS> not to exceed God's injunctions. Acts 4:18 says, "so they," The Sanhedrin,
AS> the rulers of the land, "called them in and gave them a warning on
no
AS> account to make statements or teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter
and
AS> John retorted, 'You must judge whether in God's eyes it is right to
listen
AS> to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what
we have
AS> seen and heard.'" A clear case is Hitler's actions.
I have read a lot about and BY Corrie Ten Boom. She and her family never
doubted that what was going on with Germany was wrong. They knew many years
BEFORE that times were grave. At the same time they prayed and agonized
over many things. Right up to whether it was ethical to lie about the radio
they hid and the food tickets they stole. I think this is a necessary
attitude. One SHOULD agonize. If we ever reach the point where we KNOW
that we are right without consulting our conciounce and our God we are
WRONG.
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
* Origin: If you can't Lay em, Slay em! - Freya (1:114/252)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 120/229
SEEN-BY: 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
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SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 114/252 153 314 262 214 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: CHRISTIANITY
|Date: 05 Mar 96 16:46:00
EID:ab2e 206585c0
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Jim Germiquet <=-
AM> Many who comment on this echo, don't just disbelieve in God, but
AM> loathe the God they claim they don't believe in.
No, what we loathe are things that are advocated and done in the name
of that god.
Such as Jim's statement that the biblical injunction to kill the widows
and children of the Midianites was actually a GOOD thing. After all, who
needs all those poor starving widows and kids hanging around with no
man to take care of them? (His point, not mine)
That attitude is disgusting to an extreme degree. But it's a good idea
because god said so? I don't think so.
... *BOOM!* Intel OUTSIDE!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE PICK YER PO
|Date: 05 Mar 96 17:21:00
EID:3f7e 20658aa0
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Christopher Baker <=-
JH> With LIME ?
Yeah, cuts the sticky sweetness. When I was able to drink, the only way
I could drink beer was draft with lime. Not bad, that way.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: FOF "HATE" 2
|Date: 05 Mar 96 18:15:00
EID:dea2 206591e0
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Kenneth Cavness <=-
NS> Uhm, Fire Island is in New York, not California. I live within a
NS> hundred miles of San Francisco and the only islands I've seen off
The Fire Island in SF is a state of mind, not a physical place. The
original was (maybe still is) in New York and is/was an artist's colony.
Fire Island in SF encompasses the Castro and parts of the Embarcadero.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Chesterton
|Date: 06 Mar 96 06:35:00
EID:4468 20663460
Al, I've just started reading some of G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown stories.
In the introduction, it says that Chesterton never held a grudge against
any other religion, with the exception of Quakers. No explanation for that
remark and I can't seem to find any other information about it.
Any idea why? I'm really curious about that remark.
... Dear Lord, Please let me be the person my dog thinks I am. -- S. Hoff
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 06 Mar 96 06:49:00
EID:06ac 20663620
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> I intend to protect my daughter, not torture her!
DM> It's gonna be pretty tough preserving your 'god' status
DM> around here with them kinda sentiments, podner . . .
Plus, Dan is forgetting that his mil has never raised one of *today's*
teenagers...even if you forget for a moment that she has god Dan for a
father.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: MEDICATION?
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:11:00
EID:e2ce 20663960
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
lb> Joanna -- I'm interested. :) And glad to see you back. In
FR> I hope the ignorant fuck is at least back on her medication. It
Fred, let's give her a break, huh? You know there was no one harder on
Joanna than me. Her attitudes were looking to get her killed. She says
she's changed. OK, she said that before, but her posts were still filled
with the same crap. They aren't, this time.
Why try to run her off before we find out what's going on in her head
this time? The lugwrench of truth seems to have gotten through to her on
some points. A second, heavy-handed application of same could drive her
beyond fundyism.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: CLAIMS OF DEITY CONSTRUCT
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:20:00
EID:0b83 20663a80
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
jg> If you mean where did God come from , then my answer can
jg> be found in the law of the conservation of energy.
FR> That's been debunked hundreds of times in this very forum and was
Another one I didn't see in the original. Maybe he should consider the
First Law of Thermodynamics...GO TO CLASS.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:22:00
EID:14ad 20663ac0
-=> Quoting Joanna Amren to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
JA> made absolutely no sense whatsoever. (In a nutshell.) :) But, the
JA> good news is, I didn't ever get back on that medication.
That's great. In case my post saying that if you managed to reclaim your
brain without the meds got lost, here's another HOORAY for you.
Now, keep thinking, keep questioning and above all, keep looking for the
answers to those questions.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: JOAN WOULD LIKE TO CLEAR
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:24:00
EID:3f1f 20663b00
-=> Quoting Joanna Amren to Judith Bandsma <=-
JA> Think I've heard of her before. Isn't she the one that "Mommy
JA> Dearest" movie is about? If so, then I know who you're talking
JA> about.:)
That's the one. However, a movie about her isn't the same as a movie with
her. Do try 'Mildred Pierce', I think you would like it.
... *BOOM!* Intel OUTSIDE!
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: 325
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:41:00
EID:c1f2 20663d20
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to Judith Bandsma <=-
LB> Boni and Judith were killing time yakking about 325:
LB> I don't know about you, but it makes me somewhat nostalgic for the
LB> "good old days" when we had a party line .... and unfortunately, never
We had one of those...and it was one where everyone on the line had a
different ring so you knew who was being called. You could then listen
in on those you thought would be most interesting.
I would love to see these girls' faces, though, if they ever get one of
our messages and realize that we ARE seeing all their exchanges.
... Therapy is good, but screaming obsceneties is cheaper.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Paul Churchill
|Sub: GOODBYE OLD FRIEND
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:48:00
EID:636d 20663e00
-=> Quoting Paul Churchill to Judith Bandsma <=-
PC> Sorry to say I have been way to busy to keep track of this
PC> debate down there in States.....does this mean I can swear at David
PC> Worrell, but he can't swear back ? :)
Not exactly. You could swear at David, David could swear at you, but the
one who would be liable for fines and jail time would be the sysop who
passed the messages. Especially if they are in an open echo, like this one,
and someone under the age of 18 could read them.
Truly lovely mess, it is.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Roadrunner
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:52:00
EID:cb30 20663e80
-=> Quoting Roadrunner to Karen Davis <=-
Ro> Where do you "kikes, hebes, hymies" get-off calling Christians
Ro> "fundies"?
RoadRUNNER? More like Road Kill.
... Risen from obscurity & headed for oblivion.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:55:00
EID:ba6d 20663ee0
-=> Quoting Steve Wallis to Don Martin <=-
SW> Rent the movie "They Live" and check it out-its a good flick. Roddy
SW> Rowdy Piper(remeber that dude)stars in it. Blockbuster should have it.
Oh SHIT! (ROFLMAO) You get your science info from Star Trek and theology
from a PRO-WRESTLER?
And then have the nerve to wonder why we think you are about the stupidest
fuck to ever live. (Second only to Prewett)
... One day you will find yourself and be quite disappointed.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Comminuion
|Date: 05 Mar 96 22:59:05
EID:b837 2065b760
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc84e
NS> Well, it certainly was a good bit of propaganda by the
NS> Conquistodors, as well as a ready-made justification: we have to
NS> help those people stop being so barbaric, so we're going in,
NS> kicking their asses, rape them, kill them, enslave them, rob them,
NS> and then we're just going to stay . . .
Sorta like a brother-in-law...
JH> They Aztecs DID practice wholesale canibalism, but the meat usually
JH> went to those who actually needed the extra protien: pregnant and
JH> lactating women and small children. Adult males had to make do with
JH> a diet of fish, corn and algea. (That'll be two fish tacos with
JH> algea salsa to go, please!)
NS>
NS> I can hang with fish. It's the algae that would bother me.
Yeah, especially with all those fat, juicy bugs crawling around.
NS> Well, it certainly gives a whole new slant to the idea of a Welcome
NS> Wagon down there, I suppose. (G) The Aztecs were also horribly
NS> prudish, sexually, from my understanding of various sources and
NS> I've seen people use that as justification of this sort of thing
NS> too.
I'd imagine so. If you hear an Aztec saying he ate his wife
out last night, you'd have to wonder--at least until the next
cocktail party. Of course, if you wanted a more serious
rationale, cannibalism's fine and dandy if you need the protein,
but I'm sure a few wise old birds figured it's not exactly the
sort of thing you want to start farming out, as there are some
particularly nasty diseases you can get from eating that close
to yourself on the foodchain. Kuru's not a good way to spend
the evening. Therefore, in a protein-deprived agriculture, you
kinda have to keep your population low. I'm sure a bunch of
literal bloodthirsty cannibals had more rational and pragmatic
reasons for being prudish than the stick-up-the-ass Victorian
fundy prigs of the late 19th-century. Those people fucked like
rabbits in tophats and corsets, as Queen Vickie herself and her
12 kids would attest, even if she _was_ "thinking of England"
the whole time.
NS>
NS> My personal favorite is Dia De La Muerta. Someday, I want to be
NS> down in Mexico for some of the celebration. And they have a good
NS> grotesque folklore that I'm surprized that filmmakers haven't
NS> exploited up to now. Scary stuff.
I think I've seen something with scenes that takes place
in a Day of the Dead festival. A definite fashion *must*
for anyone who's into wearing lots of black.
... But my assault rifle IS for sport! I use it to hunt BATF agents.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 390/87 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 01:36:41
EID:6a53 20660c80
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc84f
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313a216d
JG> I have always said that the theory of evolution takes more faith to
JG> believe in than the story of creation and should be called the
JG> religion of evolution :-)
AM> Jim, your not gonna make alot of friends in this echo. But I like
AM> your hudspa.
Congratulations! You got four whole letters correct. The
word is "chutzpah".
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 390/87 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Meanwhile back in the ozone...
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:16:14
EID:7adf 20666200
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc850
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 633bc1cf
JH> In I_UFO, the former, retired, resigned, living in a cave,
JH> EX-moderator of I_UFO Glenda Stocks seems to have put her
JH> moderator hat back on again...
JH> ...in order to suspend Walter "Konehead" Bartoo.
JH>
heh heh heh...
JH> I'd love to know the story behind the story on this one.
JH> The offence supposedly is that Walter was reminding people
JH> they were off-topic in such a way that he was able to get
JH> the last word.... Make that the last 2000 poorly spelled and
JH> incoherently composed words.
snicker...
JH> My next prediction: she finds an excuse to make the 30 day
JH> suspension permanent. All she needs in the way of an excuse
JH> is for Walt to do something stupid... which is pretty much
JH> a given.
Guffaw. I _just_ might be interested in monitoring the
echo again, as I mentioned Konehead's revelation of his
divinity in FLAME and a few of the lads in the ELA* got
a bit interested.
* The ELA (Echomail Liberation Army) are the bane of the
existence of a few anal sysops in Fight-o-Net because they
have a way of making life hard for them. For the most part,
they're just an annoyance to several FidoBigWigs, but they're
probably the sort of people to have on your side if you're
interested in in causing chaos in an echo. It'd be amusing
to see some tomfuckery take place over there.
... I.N.R.I. - I'm Not Really Ingestible
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 390/87 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Rena Mcgee
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:16:14
EID:c48d 20666200
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc851
RM> Within a soft light, Jim Germiquet whispered "Your Daily Death
RM> Cult" in Fred
JG> And to this day while man has lost his rights ...ie say in abortions
RM>
RM> It isn't his body, unless you believe that the *subordinate is
RM> also property* And you wouldn't *admit* to believing something
RM> like that would you?
This putz just the day before thought killing all the boys
and non-virgin females of a vanquished nation "makes a lot
of sense"--you'll find some truly sick people on this echo.
Welcome to Holy Smoke, and...enjoy! ;-)
... Creationism: cretinism augmented by an Alpha (a) and an Omega (o)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 390/87 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Rena Mcgee
|Sub: ABORT THEM ALL! (Then ea
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:16:15
EID:de2b 20666200
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc852
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
RM> It's Ogham...(a form of writing, druidic I think...)
Pictish.
... fundamentalism (n.): fund = give cash to; amentalism = brainlessness
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 390/87 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Rena Mcgee
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:16:15
EID:23d3 20666200
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc853
JG> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE.
RM> Would he change his tune if it was his own daughters that were
RM> going to be raped?
Maybe he'd send them out to _be_ raped. After all, that was
good enough for a gawdfearin' man like Lot.
... Prophylacteries: For those who like to play when they pray.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 390/87 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:16:15
EID:4cf2 20666200
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc854
NS> Last night saw Dennis Miller, who said: When is Bill Clinton ever
NS> going to wise up and tell us the truth . . . "Yes, I inhaled, and
NS> then I drank the fuckin' bong water!"
NS>
NS> Bong. Another word on the 'Huh' list . . . BTW, wasn't it
Nah. Bongs are still quite popular today.
... "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 150/1 153/800 920 157/586 167/92
SEEN-BY: 167/1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100
SEEN-BY: 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82
SEEN-BY: 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 390/87 1 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Jackson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:16:15
EID:5f5b 20666200
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc855
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 634015a8
GM>> Author Susan Lenzkes was deeply troubled by the pictures
GM>> on the news reports coming from Oklahoma City.
JH> [...]
GM>> Soon Susan was talking with her publisher, who immediately
GM>> provided a quantity of the books free.
RJ> And author Susan Lenzkes is a prattling moron for sitting
RJ> on her ass and needing to talk to her imaginary superfriend
RJ> FIRST before volunteering her help.
JH> Both her and her publisher know that some of those "free"
JH> books will turn into sales of her other books.
JH> She's nothing but a fucking profiteer trying to turn a few
JH> bucks out of the tradegy.
Yeah, I would've brought up a whole extra screen just on
that little bit alone, but I wanted to stick to the cheap
shots for starters. No sense blowing the whole wad--this
guy's gonna keep spewing the same busted shitpipe full of
spam for awhile.
... If evolution is outlawed, then only outlaws will evolve.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:16:16
EID:3908 20666200
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc856
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 1f89eb19
FR> This Terry Parker unsalted nut was pushing the Linda Thompson forgery
FR> tape which was tailored to make the attack on Waco look like flame
FR> throwers were used. Even after it was proven beyond any shadow of
FR> doubt that he was pushing a known lie, this unsalted nut _CONTINUES_
FR> to spread and perpetuate the lie.
I used to see his spams in CIVLIB all the time last year.
Guess what he was harping about then? He's one of the
Little Generalissima's biggest drooling fans, right up
there with Eric Gray and Tim Hutzler.
... I don't cheat--I play by the extended rules.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Robert Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Christanic canabilism rituals
|Date: 06 Mar 96 12:16:16
EID:2eea 20666200
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:390/87.0 313dc857
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081cae
JO> For a way of background on why I want to know... A few years ago, my
JO> wife became a "Born Again Christian" and is constantly bring home crap
JO> about "hidden messages" in music, avertising, etc., etc. These brain-
rj> You have my condolences. Seriously.
FR>
FR> Can you imagine?! There's grounds for divorce. Mental instability.
FR>
I don't know if I could handle a wife turning fundy on me.
The sex would have to be REALLY good. My last girlfriend
was a salad bar fundy--that was bad enough.
... Write drunk! Edit sober.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: Orion's Sword | Bush, LA | (504) 867-9701 | V.* (1:390/87)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 06 Mar 96 09:16:49
EID:f1b3 20664a00
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 13daf730
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 31392e82
David Worrell wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
DW> 28 Feb 96 14:46, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to David
DW> Worrell:
DW>> Unfortunately, mainstream religions don't have a monopoly on
DW>> irrationality. Liberty-Parker can be said to follow a
DW>> religion of sorts, though.
TP> Ooohhh!!! "A religion of sorts." A CONSPIRACY theory?
DW> Exactly. The Christians believe in a God without any real
DW> evidence whatsoever. You believe in the malicious intent of
DW> the government without any real evidence whatsoever.
Censorship being only the most recent UN-real evedence.
DW>> That whole militia nonsense is
irrelevant to subject of this thread; remember AbortionSpeak ban.
TP> You may have snoozed thru the recent passage of govt censorship laws
TP> applying to interactive computer systems;
DW> Irrelevant.
Govt censorship is 'irrelevant' to AbortionSpeak ban? Please explain David
logic to us.
TP> you know, what you're posting on and the actual THREAD of this
TP> conversation.
DW> I thought you had been here long enough to realize that none
DW> of us really give a shit what the thread of any given
DW> conversation is.
Comes the off-planet announcement from Worrell's World.
Do you actually HAVE an opinion on the AbortionSpeak ban?
DW> Apparently, I overestimated your intelligence once again. I've
DW> just *got* to stop doing that.
Hello,.... Earth to Worrell's World.
ENJOY,
Terry
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 06 Mar 96 14:29:00
EID:465b 206673a0
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 13df6f00
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c97
Fredric Rice wrote in a message to David Worrell:
FR> Are you clowns going to blow up another federal building this year?
FR> Today's the 4'th and so far the body count has remained
FR> stable. There has been nothing in the news about
FR> "remembering" Waco yet so I suspect the FBI is doing their
FR> job successfully.
dw> I'm hoping they get real brave and decide to attack an Army post or
dw> something similar. The 7th Light Infantry HQ would do nicely. Maybe
I
dw> ought to send Terry a map that he can pass on to his friends. :)
FR> That would KICK! I would gladly donate $100.00 to these
FR> unsalted nuts to buy ammunition for such a venture. Just
FR> think about it! These unsalted nuts take over a National
FR> Guard Armory and they can really dig in and stay put,
FR> safeguarding American Liberty.
You boys look sooo cute.... exposing your biases and jacking each other
off in public like this.....
ENJOY,
Terry
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 05 Mar 96 02:03:00
EID:c708 20651060
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5AACC
AS> "'Wir sind gewohnt dass die Menschen verhohnen was sie nicht
AS> verstehen.' Goethe is always pithy," as a better man than I
MG> And what is it that you believe that atheists do not understand?
Actually, I was thinking more the first part--"we are used to see that Man
DESPISES what he does not understand." Some of the nontheist posters get
pretty heavy into hyperbole, equating bringing up children in a particular
faith as child abuse, or calling a religion a "death cult" or trying to
imply that a good third of ALL clerics are pedophiles. Sean or Fred Rice
and George and a few of the others come to mind.
I think that SOME atheists do this. Not all. Just as there are SOME
atheists who do not concede that a Creator IS a possibility among the
possible causes of Why Things Are. And that is as great a mistake as those
who feel that a Creator is the ONLY possibility, among the believers. That
is one thing some atheists do not understand. I didn't mean to imply all,
and if I offended anyone, I apologize.
Still, given some of the vitrolic religion-bashing we sometimes see
here, I still think it is an appropriate motto for this echo.
... It is illogical to expect a universe to exist.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 05 Mar 96 09:04:00
EID:7e2b 20654880
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5AFFE
KD> Some of our fundies here have stated that the supposed deaths of
KD> early Christians for their god is evidence that it is true. Well...
KD> I've found another faith, with far more evidence that the people
KD> actually DIED [it happened in the last century]. The Baha'i. Consider
KD> also that Joseph Smith and many other Mormons were killed in the 19th
KD> and 20th centuries without recanting their faith.
KD> Unless you're willing to admit that those faiths are also "true" you
KD> have to accept that people will die for what they believe in
KD> regardless of evidence. Thus people dying for a religion is NOT
KD> evidence of its inherent truth.
KD> Here's the evidence:
KD> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
KD> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ *** THE BAHA'I FAITH ***
KD> The Baha'i Faith (pronounced "ba HIGH") is the newest of the
KD> major world religions.
KD> HISTORY
KD> In 1844, a young man in Persia took the title Bab ("the
KD> Gate"), announcing that He was a divine Messenger and that
KD> another Messenger would soon appear. The Bab quickly
KD> amassed a large following, but opposition by Muslim clergy
KD> and government officials soon turned to oppression, and
KD> thousands (including the Bab Himself) were put to death.
KD> One of the Bab's followers, a young nobleman, was imprisoned
KD> as part of this attempt to stamp out the infant faith. While
KD> in prison, He took the title Baha'u'llah ("Glory of God")
KD> and announced that He was the new Messenger foretold by the
KD> Bab. He and His family were exiled several times, and
KD> finally sent to the prison city of Akka, Palestine (now
KD> Israel), where He spent the rest of His life. During His
KD> ministry, He wrote over 100 volumes, and the number of His
KD> followers, now called Baha'is ("of Glory"), increased.
KD> Baha'u'llah died in 1892. In His will, He appointed his
KD> eldest son, Abdu'l Baha, as His successor and the official
KD> interpreter of His writings. Eventually released from
KD> prison in 1907, Abdu'l Baha traveled the world teaching the
KD> Faith (he visited the United States in 1912). Abdu'l Baha
KD> wrote a number of books explaining and amplifying the
KD> teachings of Baha'u'llah. The works of the Bab,
KD> Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l Baha, which number about 200
KD> volumes, comprise the Baha'i scriptures.
KD> Upon Abdu'l Baha's death, he appointed his grandson, Shoghi
KD> Effendi, to head the faith. During his lifetime, Shoghi
KD> Effendi worked to teach the Faith and to establish the
KD> Baha'i administrative order set out in the Baha'i
KD> scriptures. Since Shoghi Effendi's death in 1957, the
KD> Baha'i Faith has been run by this administrative order.
Karen, are you aware we HAVE a Baha'i here? Rick McFarlane, unless I am
midsremembering, is a Baha'i.
It's amazing how much this point is misunderstood. We're NOT saying that
a willingness to die is proof that the martyr's belief system is true.
Joan of Arc and Thomas More died for their faith, and I don't hold them
as
examples of such. Many Christians died in the great Persecution under
Dioclitian around 300 AD and that didn't prove anything. As you mention,
there is Joseph Smith, and the Bab, and Baha'ullah, and kamikaze pilots
who thought the Emperor of Japan was a diety, ad infinitum.
However...well, let me ask you a question before I make my point.
Will you concede that their deaths are proof in their belief in what
they espoused? That--unless they had no chance to recant or change their
mind (Joseph Smith MIGHT be an example of that, although I suspect he was
pretty insane) that their willingness to die for their beliefs indicates
the trueness of their beliefs in their own minds? That the kamikaze pilots
believed in the divinity of their emperor and the rightness of their
cause? Or the Bab? Or Baha'ullah's imprisonment? Or Joan of Arc's
martyrdom? Or for that matter, Koresh's followers or Jones' followers?
That the willingness to die for such a belief system indicates that they
TRULY BELIEVED that Koresh was the Lamb of God, the Bab was a messenger
of
God, etc.?
Now, the disciples claimed something a little different. They claimed
Jesus was the Son of God and Messiah, sure enough, and if it was ONLY
that, there would be little to distinguish them from ten thousand other
religions, martyrdom or suffering or imprisonment or not. They also
claimed to have WITNESSED Him...returning from the dead. ALL of them.
There were followers of the Bab, who claimed to receive a message from
God. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't (I don't want to offend Rick's beliefs
at all, and I will certainly concede the possibility) but his followers
didn't receive the same message. From what I know of the Baha'i faith
(Rick, correct me if I'm wrong) there are few claims of witnessing of
miracles, however.
Again. If it were JUST say, Peter who claimed to have seen Jesus after
His Resurrection, and the rest saying, "Yeah, we believe Peter, he's an
okay guy, HE wouldn't lie to us" one could pass it off as individual
delusion, much as I pass off Joseph Smith and Joan of Arc's
hallucinations. But if there is any truth in Acts or Paul's opinions of
the apostles (a contemporary, though not a witness in the same
sense--Paul's vision by itself proves nothing) that they ALL claimed to
have seen such, that they endured flogging by the Sanhedrin for preaching
such, that some of them were imprisoned and at least one of them died in
Acts for saying such (and tradition gives us more, tradition that even a
renowned historian like Michael Grant feels is true in Peter's case, for
instance) than we are left with a dozen people---actually more, there was
Mary Magdelene, there was James the brother of Jesus and the head of the
Jerusalem church, there were the five hundred who were unfortunately not
otherwise named...who saw what we hitherto would regard as impossible.
Are they ALL deluded in the exact same way? How? Hallucinations are
singular. What mechanism would allow a dozen people to see the exact same
figure in the same way, and that figure not be there? Are they all lying?
Then why did they voluntarily die for what they knew was a lie?
Or were they telling the truth?
Bear in mind that they are ALSO claiming that the being they saw rise
again was intrinsicly connected in some way with the Creator of the laws
of physics, in their view, of He who makes some things possible, and some
things impossible. It's not like they were claiming they saw a casual
bystander come back from the grave, with absolutely no reason to believe
he is anything special. He made a claim. He performed miracles hitherto
(and I am aware that other tricksters have pulled seeming "miracles" so
I
am not arguing that those miracles alone would be worth changing one's
viewpoint for). And as far as the apostles were concerned, He backed up
His claim in the most dramatic way possible...by returning, bodily, after
His death.
It's not like they were holding vigil over His body. They were hiding.
Members of the Pharisee class, like Nicodemus and Joseph of Arithamea had
Him buried. Everything indicates that they (like many here) if they
understood the tale of His rising again, they thought He meant as a
parable or in a metaphorical sense.
It's a mistake to misjudge the sophistication of the ancients. They knew
just as well as we do that dead men do not rise. Maybe more, since they
probably viewed many more executions and dead bodies than we have.
Other martyrs (such as Paul or those martyred under Nero) are
interesting in that they, unlike ourselves, WERE in a position to talk
with some of the participants and verify the truth for themselves. But by
themselves they could not validate the belief. But the disciples, the
apostles...yes, indeed, it does make a difference.
Viva la difference.
... "Miracles are not so cheap as all that."--Father Brown.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: CHURCHES
|Date: 05 Mar 96 00:06:00
EID:8492 206500c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5B364
AS> Now, what are you going to do with me? (Gentle smile.)
AS> I know, you will probably say, "educate me out of my superstition".
AS> But we will see who educates WHO.
KC> (gentle smile)
KC> And maybe...just maybe... we'll educate each other.
KC> (It _has_ been known to happen.)
I'm all for THAT, Kenneth. Fred gets a little hyperbolic sometimes with
his "better educated" silliness, so sometimes I repay him with his own
coin. But I like good discussions (and good fights!) on this subejct
(religion) and like reading, talking, and debating with those with
opposing viewpoints than mine. A lot of the more seasoned posters here
seemed to recognize you, but I don't remember you (I've been posting here
little over a year) so I take it you were before my time. I generally try
to be fair, to quote sources, and use logic in my arguments (no one
succeeds all the time) and flatter myself that I am reasonably well-read.
Probably the Christian writers I like best are C.S. Lewis and G.K.
Chesterton (which doesn't mean I dislike atheists like Hume, Dawkins,
Asimov, Ellison, et al) in the sense they discuss their religious beliefs
at length, so that might give you some indication where I'm coming from.
... Some people still think you need shaving cream to use Occam's Razor.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: lack of any Evidence
|Date: 05 Mar 96 01:06:00
EID:acac 206508c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5B972
AS> True, but solipsism leads nowhere. It's mental masturbation. I
AS> assume the consistency of my experiences reflect a true reality out
AS> there, and proceed from there. It's an axiom, admittedly without any
AS> proof, but without which all action is meaningless.
JG> While I pontificate on such matters. I certainly understand that I
JG> also am bound to the perception of the world we have defined. However
I
JG> hope to be able to keep my paradigms flexible enough to be able to tap
JG> into any ideas that might enable me to tap into any currently extra
JG> sensory abilities that we may have lieing dormant within us. I believe
I don't know. If there is any truth to extra sensory abilities they must
have been with us since we were recognizably human, instead of the few
centuries we have had the scientific method. Why have they not manifested
themselves more reliably if it is not useful AND real? Martin Gardner in
his WHYS OF A PHILOSOPHICAL SCRIVENER explains at length why he doesn't
believe in ESP, and cites some famous frauds and cases of wishful thinking
in the ESP community.
JG> the power of faith is that ability that we are losing more and more
as
JG> we rely on our "technology" to accomplish what our prayers and belief
JG> in god had provided in the past. Here is one of the ideas that came
to
JG> me during a response to a message.
TR> --+ Yes, there will always be people who choose to believe in a
TR> delusion: a lie believed to be truth or believed to be useful.
JG> True. But tell me which you would rather believe in. A lie that gives
JG> you hope and encourages you to act in a way that would uplift your
JG> spirit and those around you.
JG> Or a lie which would condemn you and put you down and make you
JG> believe there is no hope and no reason to do things that are noble
JG> and uplifting and beneficial ?
There is that much in Pascal's wager...that if one believes there is a
diety watching out for one, who orders the events in one's life, it helps
one face life (and death) with much more trust and unconcern. But that
does not negate that such a belief does not mean the belief is TRUE.
Vikings had faith that their dying in battle would earn them Valhalla, for
instance.
JG> You see even a LIE can have beneficial effects if people believe it
to
JG> be true. In fact the belief in it will eventually make it become true
JG> when people act on it .
If you mean doing good works, yes. If you mean our beliefs somehow
determine reality (which Don Juan seemed to imply to Castenada in those
famous books of Yaqui magic)--or at least causes us to select the reality
from a large ensemble of possible states out there...cannot agree. If that
were the case, then there would never be any scientific progress. Every
new idea starts with a lone idea. If Copernicus was the only one at the
time with a true belief in a heliocentric theory, than the rest of
mankind, who believed in a geocentric theory, would have CAUSED the Earth
to be in the center of the universe, and Copernicus never would have been
able to convince anybody. No scientific progress would happen. (It would
also imply there was no reality until there were minds to comprehend it,
in which case you can ask, whence did the minds arise FROM?)
JG> WHAT A CONCEPT !!!
JG> By BELIEVING in something and ACTING on it you make it a REALITY !!!
In which case, Spock, Sherlock Holmes, and Superman would be a reality.
Unicorns would have been a reality when it was generally believed they
existed, as would dragons. Now, if you mean it in merely a metaphorical
sense...that an idea prompts actions that make things a reality (for
instance, whether I believe Buddha was truly enlightened or not, I can
applaud the ideal that prompts many Buddhist monks to help others, for
instance, or others' ideas that cause one to build a cathedral or a
hospital) I could agree with you.
JG> EUREKA !!!!
JG> So then the only question is what do you believe in ? What do you
JG> WANT to believe in ?
I want to believe that Ed McMann will show up at my door any minute with
the famous check, that two of my sons aren't autistic, and that all war
in
the world will cease. Oh, and that AIDS and cancer will be cured by a
simple vaccine. I don't think I'm alone. But those conditions remain.
TR> --+ It's been a pleasure "speaking" with you, I enjoy bouncing ideas
TR> back and forth.
JG> it is all good and well to "bounce these ideas around" but it means
JG> NOTHING , NADA, ZILCH, if we do not put them into practice.
JG> You can believe you have a disease, and you can believe that if you
JG> go to the doctor he will tell you what the disease is and what
JG> medicine to take. And you can believe that that medicine will cure you.
JG> But if you do not get up and GO to the doctor and BUY the medicine and
JG> then TAKE the medicine. It will all mean nothing! You will die and
not
JG> even know why just because you didn't bother to find out what the
JG> disease was and take the medicine.
JG> THAT is what religion is all about.
JG> It is what you DO not just what you believe!
James said it best when he said, "Faith without works is dead." Not that
salvation is a matter of works, but that faith prompts action, just as
love prompts action. If you say you love your wife, but never kiss her,
hold her, do anything for her, despite all your protestations of how much
you love her, your words ring hollow. Similarly with faith.
JG> And what you do gives reality to what you believe.
No; if I have an unrequited love for a woman, unless she is really there,
all my longing and actions will not materialize her.
... What can you do at 3 AM? Psssttt - got a modem??
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Let me guess
|Date: 05 Mar 96 01:09:00
EID:70aa 20650920
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5C1C4
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> keep people in their sins. Water baptism is the re-birth of Water
MM> Wouldn't be Church of Christ would you?
No, but I am. But brought up Episcopalian. I've been trying to guess your
orientation without much success. WIccan, perhaps? There is an eclectic
view to religion you espouse that seems to me to be consistent with Wicca.
Just guessing, and I don't want to pigeonhole you if you don't want to be
pigeonholed.
... No one could pin anything on Lady Godiva.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Many gods
|Date: 05 Mar 96 02:06:00
EID:0e8b 206510c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5C5AC
KC> Whilst sleeping soundly, Al Schroeder said to Fredric Rice:
FR> I'm totally dedicated to Zeus. Imagine.
AS> Not in a Ganymeadean sense, I trust.
KC> HaHA! We've read Marlowe, I see.
Actually, I thought it was original (the fact that Ganymeade was Zeus'
cupbearer and male main squeeze, as opposed to his ten thousand female
main squeezes) but yeah, I've read Christopher Marlowe (I love his Dr.
Faustus, but I've suffered a recent fire and lost some of my books) and
probably unconsciously plagiarized it. Where was it, in Dr. Fautus or
Timburlane or what?
... "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" - Ockham
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Message to Asmodeus
|Date: 05 Mar 96 03:02:00
EID:f1b6 20651840
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5C912
-> Re: Message to Asmodeus
JH> Dear White Punk on Dope Satanist,
JH> You missed me.
JH> You fucked up.
JH> And you owe me two bucks. (I'm joining the Friends Of Al Schroeder
JH> class action suit.)
DC> Just happy that I could get you and Al to organize! LOL-WTIME! I
DC> think I'll hit him up for this rash of cold weather we've been
DC> having. If we can get the East Coast to come in on this, he'll be
DC> a free man in the year 200,001 or so...
I mean, a lady gets a million dollars for spilling hot coffee in her lap
at McDonald's...and THIS guy claims to be responsible for the loss of my
washer, dryer, computer, bedroom suite, and books and comic books in a
fire, that endangered my family?
Open and shut case. I hope Asmodiddly is RICH...I could care less if we
jail him. (Maybe a court order not to go near a computer for purposes of
communication for the rest of his life, though...)
... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: treatise
|Date: 05 Mar 96 02:05:00
EID:c331 206510a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5CC0A
AS> For instance; have you ever stated the evidence you would
AS> need to BELIEVE in a diety? And would we then be justified
MG> I have. Many times. But I have not seen it.
I've seen posts from either you or Leipzig for evidence for specific
events in the Bible (usually the Flood) and how it is lacking. I must admit
I don't remember (although my memory may be dimmed by smoke inhalation )
a more general outline of what it would take you to believe in a diety,
any diety, what sort of evidence would convince you.
... This echo just gets weirder and weirder. Oh wait. That's me. Sorry.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 05 Mar 96 03:05:00
EID:d61f 206518a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02E5D02E
GR>> Be conservative. Believe Mark 16:15-18. Or do you get
GR>> liberal when it is your ass on the line?
MH> By now you have received my response to this. You bore me. If
MH> you can't come up with anything better, I'll add you to my
MH> twit filter. I've been in this echo long enough to have no
MH> patience for one-note singers.
MG> While I agree with you on his level of maturity, I would like to know
MG> what your answer to this is. do you not believe the passage? Do you
MG> not believe that your god will not kill the true believer if poison
is
MG> taken?
Michael has already responded to this recently, but this is a huge echo
to
keep up with, so, I'll summarize it, since both he and I agree on this.
ALL COMPETENT BIBLE SCHOLARSHIP AGREES that anything in Mark past them
finding the empty tomb was not in the original. All the earliest copies
we
can find (Codex Viticanus, Codex Siniaticus> don't have it. Some have
variant endings. There is a startling departure from Mark's style, also,
in the last few passages. Since there are various passages that very
clearly foreshadow a Resurrection, we ASSUME that the original ending is
lost, and it does go all the way through the empty tomb. (If you want to
believe that the lost ending of Mark has Jesus showing up going, "April
Fool's! That was my twin brother!" or "The disciples found out that Joseph
of Arithamea went crazy and stole the body" be my guest.) Both the NIV
Study Bible (fairly conservative) and the Jerusalem Bible (a Catholic
study bible) mention this, and most modern versions of the Bible will
mention that the last few passages in Mark were not in the earliest
versions. Now notice...that is the only place where Christians are
commanded to drink poison, handle snakes, etc.
That's why both Michael and I ignore George's little taunt, when
directed at others, and laugh at it when directed at ourselves. This isn't
a matter of convenience. If THAT were the case, we would cut it off after
the appearance of the risen Christ, but the last authentic words of the
original author of Mark appear to be the mention of the empty tomb. And
we
can get any number of Greek and Biblical scholars, both theist and
non-theist to back us up. (I can think of a few other minor variations,
but that's the largest part of the NT that we can demonstrate isn't in the
original.)
So George is picking on the one part of the NT that I can show EXCELLENT
evidence isn't in the orignial.
It's like the happy endings for Shakespeare's plays, like KING LEAR,
that idiots put on there in the 18th century. We know that isn't true,
because we have earlier copies that don't have the happy ending. Ditto
with the ending of Mark.
So hold the poison, and although my wife has handled snakes---she used
to handle the giant boa constrictor in biology lab in college, and named
it "Lucifer" affectionately, and STILL misses it...we are under no
compulsion to do so.
And yes, it is obscene that people die every year for a part of the
Bible that wasn't in the original. (Snake handlers and such.)
... Photons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 05 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:fb8b 20651920
MSGID: 1:116/19 0370F776
AS> Ever notice that Job never really gets an answer from God? Basically
AS> the answer of God is that "there are some things men are not meant to
AS> know", Dr. Frankenstein.
RH> I see it as a power trip. "Who are you to question me? I'm bigger,
RH> stronger, etc." A typical bully response.
That's a possibility. There's another.
I don't think I could EVER...no matter how long I talked, or tried to
metaphorize or make an analogy or anything...tell a two-year-old all the
ins and outs of our electorial system, or how a television REALLY works,
not just the Mr. Wizard explanation or explain an income tax form. And a
two-year-old is just a smaller stage of the same life form. Even a virus
is closer to me than God is to me in that sense, since a virus is part of
the same evolutionary tree, and a god would be totally different frmo you
and I. It would be the height of arrogance to think we can comprehend ALL
the motives of an infinite being.
In fact, I would be more suspicious of a belief-system that asserts
EVERY answer could be comprehended by human beings. If that's a copout,
so
be it. To me it is more comprehending the enormous gulf inbetween.
... Yeah.. but that's what the aliens WANT YOU TO BELIEVE!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 05 Mar 96 04:03:00
EID:fb8b 20652060
MSGID: 1:116/19 0370FD8E
AS> Now, what are you going to do with me? (Gentle smile.)
AS> I know, you will probably say, "educate me out of my superstition".
AS> But we will see who educates WHO.
RH> Let the games BEGIN!
Hey, they've already started. I'm pretty sure Hector Plasmic and David
Worrell & Kelsey, for instance, knew the term "anthropic principle" before
I brought it up. I'm not as sure about the rest of you...but NOW I'm sure
you do. (Oh, and John Brawley, of course.)
RH> Al holds the distinction of being the only intelligent theist
RH> in Holy_Smoke. Let's use him wisely. Razors only; no bludgeons.
Occam's, I assume.
... It's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 05 Mar 96 04:07:00
EID:f624 206520e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03710748
SA> Man do not pride yourself on your superiority to animals: they are
SA> without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your
SA> appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after
SA> you.---Fyodor Milkailovich Dostoyevsky
Sue, you ever read any of the TARZAN books by Edgar Rice Burroughs? You
should. There are points where you and Lord Greystoke would be in complete
agreement. And he is a good writer, though not a great one.
... Gotta run. My neighbors just sighted Elvis making crop circles.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 05 Mar 96 05:03:00
EID:38f0 20652860
MSGID: 1:116/19 03710EBE
AS> (with the slight qualifications above) are irrelevant. But the
AS> disciples, the apostles, knew the truth, one way or the other. They
RH> Not necessarily.
Then perhaps a hoax. But a hoax would have to involve Roman centurions,
guards from the Sanhedrin, and many other people in cahoots.
AS> either knew that Jesus rose or stayed dead and they pulled a hoax. If
RH> Or someone hoaxed THEM.
Could be. Who? Spin a theory. I have heard many variations. See if it
holds up under examination.
AS> they did the latter, they were flogged--willingly--for a hoax, in some
AS> cases imprisoned, in some cases killed (James the son of Zebedee,
AS> James the brother of Jesus) for what they KNEW was a lie. If the
AS> former there are two choices: either they underwent a mass
RH> Three choices.
Keep reading...
AS> hallucination...and hallucinations are invariably singular, to undergo
AS> one would be a miracle every bit as much as the Resurrection...or,
AS> they told the truth. And even there, in the last case, we can say,
RH> Or thought they were telling the truth.
Yes, there's that. But you will concede the honesty of the disciples,
then? They told the truth AS THEY KNEW IT. I took the hoax theory as a
subset of the "telling the truth" bit.
AS> either they were hoaxed, or they saw what actually happened. A fraud
AS> would involve so much conspiracy at so many levels...the piercing of
AS> the side was to ensure He WAS dead, remember...He was in the eyes of
AS> society a dangerous rabble-rouser to whom it was in the interest of
AS> both Pilate and the Sanhedrin to put six feet under. They would have
AS> to buy off the centurions
AS> who worked for Pilate, the guards around the tomb, perhaps Pilate
AS> himself.
AS> And if it wasn't the disciples, who certainly weren't wealthy, who do
AS> we pick? Nicodemus? I've examined that theory for a while, and
AS> rejected on various reasons. So we are left with...
AS> That they told the truth.
RH> All we need is Jesus and a very few others, NOT including the
RH> disciples.
Let's see now. We will make the assumption, if you will, that the main
parts are true, excepting only the miraculous parts. Fair enough? Then we
require the cooperation of, at a minimum (a) whoever thought up the plot
(b) the centurion who pierced His side and anyone who might have examined
Him afterwards and (c) those who prepared Him for burial and the
guards at the tomb. (Unless there was a secret tunnel within the tomb,
which I am willing to concede is a possibility.) By far the likeliest
candidates would be Nicodemus and/or Joseph of Arithemea. I don't think,
given the climate of the times, and given Pilate's general character, we
can expect him to be a co-conspirator. Tiberius would execute him in an
instant for pulling a hoax that would endanger the hold Herod had on the
populance, who was an ally of Rome. Nor would Pilate really have any
reason to keep a Jewish rabble-rouser alive, he would be much safer to
Pilate dead. Ditto the Sanhedrin as a whole, and the high priest's family.
Let's examine the idea. Jesus found that Nicodemus and/or Joseph of
Arithimea were favorable to His ideas. So He had a secret meeting with
them, and said, "You have contacts with the Roman soldiers. I want you to
bribe some who might be present at the Crucifixions, so that after I am
arrested and sentenced, they will take me off the cross before I'm dead."
THINK on that one for a second.
THERE's bravery for you. Or insanity. Crucifixion is one of the most
painful deaths known. Instead of hightailing out of Jerusalem, Jesus
VOLUNTARILY underwent crucifixion in the HOPES that the guards Nicodemus
et al hired would be able to save Him before He was dead...under the
watchful eye of Judas and the Sanhedrin. (And Roman military law was quite
clear in that regard, that the guards would be risking death if they found
out.) We would be talking hefty bribes here.
And further, we would have to ensure that no one, while preparing the
body, noticed the breathing. Now, in the first century, the average person
was much closer to death than we were. The average kid in the street had
seen corpses, from executions or plagues. They were much more intimately
acquainted with death than we are.
Again, large bribes.
Then the guard around the tomb. We're not sure if these are Roman or
Sanhedrin guards. If they were Roman, again Roman military law permits
execution of those who allowed their charges to escape, even if that
charge is a body, due to their negligence. Like sleeping on the job, etc.)
Large bribes.
Now, NONE of them decided that the Sanhedrin (the political and
religious power in the land) or Judas (the military power in the land)
would pay BETTER for finding out about such a conspiracy? A secret spread
too far is a secret no longer? Nobody told (with the consequent
executions which would take place?).
Would two members of the Sanhedrin REALLY risk death for a Galilean
preacher? It is not unlike saying two U.S. Senators would risk execution
to aid David Koresh. It's possible, but to say the least it seems
unlikely...
Whatever else happened to Jesus, He had to have been wounded in the
hands and feet to go through the Crucifixion. So, this wounded
man...wounded (at the very least) in the side, in the hands, in the
FEET...met a couple of believers on the road to Emmanus, walking the
roughly ten miles from Emmanus to Jerusalem?
Neat trick.
AS> But not for a GROUP witnessing of an impossible thing. Which is
AS> exactly what the disciples had.
RH> BS. Thousands witnessed the sun dancing in the sky, an impossible
If you're stupid enough to stare at the sun, the eye jerks against the
glare. For that matter, involuntary flinching against the glare would make
the sun seem to "move".
RH> event. I saw the Statue of Liberty vanish into thin air, an
RH> impossible event.
Sure. But if you want to tell me that Jesus had a moving motorized
platform and one of those large thin flat mirror surfaces you can unroll,
which is how the Statue of Liberty thing was done, you need to justify it.
We aren't talking casual strangers mistaking someone else for Jesus.
We're not talking Elvis sightings. We're talking people who knew Jesus,
who had travelled and lived with him for over a year.
Neat trick.
... This tagline does not exist. Provide evidence otherwise.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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PATH: 116/19 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 05 Mar 96 05:07:00
EID:e415 206528e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03711A80
AS> and be the hand of your own destruction. We do not ask to live. Why
AS> should we choose how we die?
RH>
RH> Why not? Death with dignity, perhaps? Honor, perhaps?
Because a dead man--at least as far as we can discern...can do no more
good in the world. A live man can. I'm awfully glad that Steve Hawking,
for instance, chose to live when he could have so easily opted to die
before the Lou Gerig's disease become more prevelent. I don't think I
would blame Hawking if he HAD chosen to die. But I'm glad he didn't.
RH> Jesus thought he could force YHVH's hand if he deliberately fulfilled
RH> all the prophecies about the messiah. That's why he had to die.
A voluntary sacrifice? A martyr to provoke God? Could be. But if He had
faith in God then He wouldn't consider this second one...
RH> Or at least APPEAR to die....
You're having it both ways. Either He believed in Jehovah and the
messianic prophecies, in which case he wouldn't have to fake anything, but
went willingly to His death, or else He faked it, and knew His faith was
false. One or the other.
AS> But it was a POTENTIAL baby and child.
RH> Does not matter. Human life is superabundant. We do not need to
RH> preserve everything that MIGHT become human.
I certainly agree birth control is needed. However, I wonder about the
precedent, if nothing else. If we define a human being as one not born
yet, what is the criteria for that? Because the fetus/baby is linked with
the mother? If a person is linked to a heart-lung machine are they less
human? Is it because they cannot function as a human being does in some
respects? But many afflicted cannot use the full range of human abilities.
Will their lives someday also be deemed superfluous?
It is not a matter of logic. It is a matter of definition. If you feel a
fetus is a human being, then abortion is murder, and all the
justifications made will not lessen that. If you feel a fetus is just an
extension of the mother, a parasite, not a full human being yet, than a
mother can abort just as much as she can excise any unwanted growth. I
really don't see any way out of this impasse, right now. And as medical
science progresses more and more and is able to save children at younger
and younger stages in the mother's pregnancy, I suspect the question will
become even more heated.
AS> Of course. But a plurality of explanations does not rule out one of
AS> them being true. There have been many explanations for how the
AS> universe is structured over the centuries, from the geocentric view
of
AS> Ptolemy to the current view of a universe that began with a Big Bang
AS> and contains hundreds of billions of galaxies. Not all of them can be
AS> right, but that doesn't mean one of them can't be.
RH> It also does not establish that any of them IS true either.
Granted.
AS> But look at the history of such movements. Look at the ten thousand
AS> religious movements that have sprung up. How many claim eyewitness of
AS> a miracle at the core? Surely, if it was as easy as all that to
AS> convince others that their leader was resurrected, we would have a LOT
AS> of religions
AS> making that claim? And yet...there are many religions that claim a
AS> dying/reborn god/savior, but none of them have eyewitnesses. (Adonis.
RH> Koresh. Some of his people still believe in him. They say he is alive
RH> and in hiding.
Do they claim he was miraculously saved? Or do they just believe they
escaped by human means? Honestly curious here. I don't know.
And do some of them claim that they SAW the miracle? After all, the
disciples claimed to see Jesus die. John said he was there. John and
others also claimed to have seen a risen Jesus.
AS> Try getting a dozen schizophrenics to agree on what the voices are
AS> saying. Hallucinations are VERY individual.
RH> But when such people discuss what they saw, a concensus will be
RH> reached and believed by all. (zealots, not schizos)
That would work if the disciples were all of one mind. But in all honesty,
there are certainly signs of jealousy between John and James, the sons of
Zebedee, and Peter. (Remember his mother jockeying to have them be at
Jesus' right hand side in Heaven? Read the Gospel of John and how the
"disciple that Jesus loved best" rather cattily dogs Peter's every step,
in some cases even getting to the tomb before Peter, although not going
in. If say, Peter had the hallucination, do you think James and John would
not try to wrest control over the crazed leader, Peter? Further, even if
they all said they believed it, NONE of them cracked under the whipping
given them by the Sanhedrin? You are basically saying one had the delusion
and the rest are agreeing...in essence, lying. Remember how Jesus preached
"the truth would set you free"? They were specifically going against their
own teacher's precepts and managing to hold their tongue about even when
being whipped, or in James the apostle's case, when being killed or
imprisoned in Peter's case...?
Unlikely. We literally have no way to guage the likelihood of miracles.
But human behavior we know. If you tell me that JFK was haunted by the
ghost of Lincoln, I can't estimate the probabilities. If you tell me JFK
was J.Edgar Hoover's lover, I WILL laugh out loud. That I know.
... Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: LIBRARIES
|Date: 05 Mar 96 05:07:00
EID:dcac 206528e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03711DFA
RH> You mean like "You may worship me or not, but you'll burn in hell
RH> if you don't"?
AS> No. That's something a little different. If an engineer has to take
a
RH> If God does it, it's OK? Murder, rape, pillage, all OK if
RH> He orders it?
Hmmm. Exactly HOW did you arrive at that conclusion from what I said
above? I see nothing to indicate it. The answer is no.
AS> bridge apart, it would be criminal for him NOT to put up a "Bridge
AS> Out" sign. Now, if someone drives by in a car, plainly sees the sign,
AS> and keeps
AS> driving...is the engineer forcing him IN ANY WAY? (Besides, if you
RH> False analogy. God created hell and orders you there for the slightest
RH> infraction.
And the engineer may have created the bridge. He may have caused the
ravine into which you may fall, by blasting. I think it's a rather good
analogy myself. As for the "slightest infraction"...the most henious
crimes can be forgiven. All it takes is a word. There is no sin, no evil
greater than God's grace. But even that is not forced on you. You only
have to ask for it.
AS> will examine Romans you will see that one's conscience can be an
AS> advocate before God for the pagans, so I think it is certainly
AS> conceivable...indeed, my own opinion...that a non-Christian or
AS> non-theist could still end up in a blissful afterlife for what he has
AS> done during life.)
RH> Hard to justify biblically, since "no one comes to the Father...".
Does that mean only those who consciously follow Jesus OR does it mean
that Jesus is the final arbitrator of who shall come to the Father? Two
different things. Both meanings, however, might be implied by the above
statement...but the second also takes into account the statement in
Romans. (I.E., Jesus could admit the good pagan into the Father's presence
if He felt they were good in His sight, whether they had heard of Jesus
or
not.)
Trust me, Roger. I can justify it biblicly quite well.
... The easiest way to solve a problem is to deny that it exists.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 06 Mar 96 22:30:26
EID:5d1a 2066b3c0
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 13e59160
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 20897f25
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Jim Germiquet spewed forth the following Ryan Shaw:
JG> What's wrong with that ? As long as it isn't a law. What is wrong
JG> with encouraging people to post rules such as
It's a waste of time and it is a waste of taxpayer money. It is also an
attempt to court religious voters by bowing down to them.
JG> Thou shalt not kill
JG> Thou shalt not steal
There is nothing wrong with this. I'd like to state however that while
I hold myself to these standards I didn't get it from the Bible, I got it
from being human [empathy].
JG> Would you prefer they encouraged people to bear and keep arms.
There is no need for this. Besides, you are grasping for straws.
JG> Lower the drinking and and legalize marijuana ?
For sure. All drugs should be legal. If you'd like to see my 23 page paper
I just finished writing on this topic, send me your mailing address or an
email address. If you'd like to enlighten yourself just go read the `National
Review' from early February. In addition to that, open your eyes and realize
what the government is pulling. Follow the money.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
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|From: Stuart Lumgair
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 04 Mar 96 18:49:08
EID:0957 20649620
MSGID: 1:153/556.0 13b9e6b1
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2421020a
Jesse Jones wrote in a message to Sue Armstrong:
JJ> As a radical Christian I am more than capable of
JJ> critiquing the consumerist society we have created here. I
JJ> am no jingoist. However, I tremble when I see someone so
JJ> depraved as to suggest moral equivalency between the US and
JJ> the FSU.
Moral equivalency ? Since when did the US ever have the
balls to try to help people in other countries start their
own democracy ? The US foriegn policy has continuously
supported dictatorships and puppet governments for most of
its history. At least the FSU with its foriegn policy, has
believed that their system should apply to all, rather than
the special few in their home country.
In what way do you see the US as ever having been "morally
superior" ??? Unless the ONLY thing you take into
consideration is individual rights, the comparison finds
them to be somewhat equal. In the case mentioned in my first
paragraph they even fall far far behind.
Stuart
--- timEd-B9
* Origin: Lost Cause BBS (604) 854-1869 (1:153/556)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 06 Mar 96 13:00:56
EID:f984 20666800
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 313dc4b7
Judith Bandsma said "THUMB-SUCKING FUNDY" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> As was Oliver North and John Wayne Bobbit: surely SOME of them
DM> aren't assholes or felons. But then a service that preens itself on
JB> Well, my middle son was a Marine (as was my uncle during WWII). That's
JB> at least 2. But then they were enlisted, not officers. (Not sure
JB> what rank Bobbit held)
Whatever it was, next time he will hold on a bit more
tightly, one suspects.
JB> Speaking of services...my oldest just let me know that they got
JB> orders. (This is the one in the Air Force) They will be going to TURKEY
JB> in the fall.
Hey, maybe they can bring back the steering wheel from
the Ark that Leipzig was telling us about . . .
JB> Two years there and then another 2 years in the reopened
JB> Soesterberg AB in Holland. Holland I can handle, but I won't get to
see
JB> my granddaughters again until Jordan is in school and Holly will be
at
JB> that 10 year old, smart mouth 'I hate you all' stage. Geez, I'm going
JB> to miss them.
At our age, four years is just the instant from one set
of assholes running for president to another set, but as a
chunk of a kid's life, it is major. You'll miss a lot.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Baptism
|Date: 06 Mar 96 21:03:44
EID:aa86 2066a860
Whilst masticating on , Brad Jackson (1:244/108)
wrote to Shelby Sherman:
BJ> You seem to think God has mad mistakes, when know in your heart he hasn't!
BJ> You only fight against God because of the devil, if you could only realize
BJ> this you would be so much closer to finding out the truth.
A. There is no proof of the existence of God (not yours, and not others.)
B. There is no proof of the existence of the devil.
C. Your religious myths are no better, worse, or truer than the mythologies
which came before, after, or are yet to come. If you believe in them, and
they work for you, fine - don't go trying to make everyone else believe
them. Religion is a personal relationship with one's deity, if one
believes in a deity.
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Drew Webber
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Prewett's Christanic fant
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:47:00
EID:2e2f 20668de0
MSGID: 1:272/60 001557db
While getting nailed over the head by Sakura, Fredric Rice said to Robert
Jackson...
rj> His home snailmail address acquired, so that printed
rj> transcripts might be sent to his mailbox when he suddenly
rj> never posts in HOLY_SMOKE again?
FR> Nope. I don't think anyone here has managed to (or even put up the
FR> effort to) find the nut's mailing address.
A few years ago Spewitt sent me some of JFK-is-the-anti-Christ literature,
and I think his return address was on it. Unfortunately, last summer I lent
it to another Local Heathen who was interested in looking at it, without
any intention of wanting it returned. The next time I talk to him, though,
I'll try to get it from him...
... Perverted old men everywhere just LOVE Sailor Moon!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- PCBoard (R) v15.22/M 5
* Origin: Pc Prison - Middletown NY (1:272/60)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:43:34
EID:d840 20649d60
And lo, J.J. did whine incessantly about Angels or Demons??? to Norbert!
>>Mark 1:31 And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted
>> her up; and immediately the fever left her, and she
>> ministered unto them.
NS> I don't care how sick she is, get her moving to get my
NS> dinner . . .
NS> You know, this has a lot of potential. And think of all
NS> the headaches we could save people who try like hell to
NS> interpret this stuff. We'll need a catchy title though ...
NS> how about THE Book?
JH> I like the concept, but I think that name has already been used.
JH> How about Good News For Stupid People?
Darn. Think that might be too long, especially for truly stupid
people? If you think they'll follow that, I have no problem with
it. };) I think if we play our cards right, we might even be able
to finangle it into a sitcom or something. At the very least,
t-shirts and stuffed animals . . .
... "Amazing what caffeine and no sense of self-preservation can do..."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:46:26
EID:6614 20649dc0
And lo, J.J. did whine incessantly about Waco Rememberance to Norbert!
TL>> Not me, nor any Waco protester that I know. We believe
TL>> that the taking of innocent life, as happened at Waco,
TL>> can't be protested by taking MORE innocent life.
NS> So you would support the death penalty for those who killed
NS> the people in Oklahoma City?
JH> I personally would not. And I've been an enemy of the survivalist-
JH> patriot-militia nuts since before the OKC bombing, Waco and even
JH> before Ruby Ridge.
I can understand this. I may not totally agree, but I at least
will say that my feelings on the situation are based on mere
emotional cueing and nothing else. As a father, I want to put the
dynamite stick up each anus and light it myself . . . it's not
logical, or rational, but emotional.
JH> I might cheer on a lynch mob dealing with such characters, but I
JH> will oppose the government exercising the power of life and death
JH> over it's citizens in any situation.
I concur with the lynch-mob bit. I think I even suggested
something like it here.
JH> Capital punishment is the ultimate example of giving the government
JH> too much power.
You may be right, I hadn't thought of it that way. Guess it's time
to buff up the brain and give it further thought. . .
... "At birth we woke to dream in this world between." -Kan'ami Kiyotsugu
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:51:31
EID:cbf3 20649e60
And lo, J.J. did whine incessantly about RE: AL SCHROEDER to Al!
JH> On Mar 01 06:03 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> Well, you see, Lee and Gene Colan's Captain MAr-VEll was the
AS> SECOND Captain Marvel. The first was a kid named Billy Batson
AS> who said a magic word and turned into a Superman-like being
AS> called Capt. Marvel, and had the wisdom of Solomon, the strength
AS> of Hercules, the speed of Mercury. He even outsold Superman in
AS> his prime, in the forties, and Superman SUED him as a rip-off.
AS> Capt. Marvel went out of business in the fifties, and then DC
AS> brought him back in the early seventies...but since Marvel had
AS> made a Captain MArvel in the interim, they had to call the
AS> magazine, SHAZAM! which was the magic word.
JH> Hmmm... you just might know...
JH> Where do all these super-heros get the title "Captain"?
JH> Are they Merchant Marines? Officers of the local Police department?
JH> Are they in the Navy? (Captain Midnight may have been, but that's
JH> the only example I can think of who may have gotten his "commission"
JH> the way most humans do.)
JH> Captain is a rather specific title and not one that can be
JH> self-assumed.
Not to mention that those who self-assumed the titles (and most
did) should have worked harder and self-assumed a title such as
General, etc. Captain Marvel just called himself that, unless it
was conveighed on him by the wizard that helped give him the powers
(again, not a valid jump in rank). Captain Midnight I'm not aware
of. I always thought the first one, Billy Batson, was called just
Marvel, not Captain Marvel, but I could be wrong. Let's see, who
else had titles. Doc Savage WAS a doctor. Doctor Strange was a
doctor of something or other, wasn't he? Captain America was given
his rank by the military, who augmented him chemically to make him
a superman. Hmmm...can't think of others at this moment.
... "I think not," said Descartes -- and promptly disappeared.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: The Lies of the Righteous
|Date: 04 Mar 96 19:56:09
EID:5216 20649f00
And lo, Anthony did whine incessantly about The Lies of the Righteous
to Elliott!
EF> BTW, Tony, Scientists have used tree ring data to check radiocarbon
EF> analysis. Result: C-14 dead on. Live with it Tony.
AG> They have also dated things incorrectly.
Such as?
AG> Kind regards ... Mr. Untouchable
Can you see people we can't, Anthony, or do you just call yourself
Mr. Untouchable? And, don't you think Elliot Ness'll beat you up
for assuming that tital?
... "Gravity was invented by Newton.": Jesse Hornbacher
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Embarassing questions?
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:43:01
EID:2484 20668d60
MSGID: 1:352/266 313E203E
FR> Because we know they can't answer. For most people, being unable to
FR> answer why we do something or believe something causes them to
FR> rethink their actions and beliefs.
Gee and I thought most people did that regularly as just a matter of life.
Of course, I've been away from the general public for a little while. So,
why do the questions have to come along with hostilities? Frustration I
suppose.
FR> Perhaps -- just perhaps -- a fundy will learn. 'Except that we also
FR> find vindication in others why so many of us left the Christian
FR> religion.
Usually a person only learns what they have decided to look into. It's hard
to get anyone to learn new material if they are busily ignoring it. That
seems to be the usual response in a lot of people. If there are out of their
depth they begin defensive action and never question what they are defending.
Good luck in the endeavor however.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Mad
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:45:57
EID:8a59 20668da0
MSGID: 1:352/266 313E203F
DM> No, he did not "figure significantly in the development
DM> and production of Mad Magazine". _That_ Don Martin was a
DM> freelance artist heavily used by Mad Magazine, and used in
DM> every sence of the term. The checks he received for his
Hmmmm isn't that a shame. He's the one name besides Alferd E. Newman I remember!
DM> way--Bill Gaines screwed ALL freelancers equally. The
DM> practice of putting such agreements on the backs of checks
DM> is now illegal, owing in great part to Martin's testimony on
DM> the practice before the Senate Copyright Committee.
Bravo! Then he definitely remains a hero in my mind. In fact he just elevated
a ways. Thanks for the information on an old favorite.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Schools
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:54:26
EID:9a76 20668ec0
MSGID: 1:352/266 313E2040
FR> related sciences to fail utterly. Creationism in States like Alabama
FR> and Georgia in the United States has made those two states the lowest
FR> acedemical arenas in the United States. "Whole language" here in
FR> California has placed the State of California at the VERY BOTTOM of
FR> the rest of the United States in literacy.
From teaching at the university level for Southwest Missouri State University
in the 80's I would think that more than any single issue was responsible
for the changes in educational success. Changes in the involvement of parents
in their children's schooling, changes in the methods of presentation so
larger classes can be accomodated, economic changes moving more parents
out of the home, changes in teacher/student interaction also figure into
the shifts.
A change in entry level academic standings at SMSU was originally viewed
as a decrease in overall readiness... however when it was compared to the
percentage of students entering from highschool it became evident that a
portion of the statistical difference had to be considered against a greater
portion of highschool classes attempting enrollment.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Quotes
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:57:01
EID:8df4 20668f20
MSGID: 1:352/266 313E2041
FR> I pull in a great many quotes from my extensive archives. The Adolf
FR> Hitler quotes have been accumulated over the span of six years. if
FR> you're interested and have an e-mail address, I can forward to you a
FR> great many files which enumerate such things.
See incoming netmail for my e-mail address.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Medication
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:59:52
EID:44ef 20668f60
MSGID: 1:352/266 313E2042
FR> Armen was in this forum a couple of months ago and, because she was
FR> Hopefully her medical problem has manifest itself to the point where
FR> she's decided to get back onto her medication.
I sympathize with anyone who has a strange reaction while off some types
of medication. Cures are rare! Hopefully she'll answer my post. Thanks
for filling me in.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Oops
|Date: 06 Mar 96 18:01:21
EID:8632 20669020
MSGID: 1:352/266 313E2043
KC> Rudzinski:
MM> return to the question> What do you believe in?
KC> Then, George:
Oops. I'll have to get that back to George huh?
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Choices
|Date: 06 Mar 96 18:15:58
EID:bb1f 206691e0
MSGID: 1:352/266 313E2044
KC> In many cases, there is only one truth.
I seem to find more cases where different does not equal wrong, than I find
cases where there is only one truth.
KC> 0 + 1, in our math system, will always equal 1. That's truth.
Of course, you could also say that 0 + 1 = 2 (1/2) = 4 (1/4) etc.
These answers are expressed in different symbols, but yet remain the same
truth. Each one stands alone as truth.
KC> Killing, though, is not always murder. The "truth" in such
KC> circumsancesbecomes much more complex to determine.
Precisely! Truth is seldom restricted to only a single expression, or a
simple answer. Except perhaps the question. "Are you pregnant?" I still
get puzzeled when one of my young friends replies, "Well only a little bit."
KC> You mean, except for the ones that explicitly command one to do
KC> something? And except for the ones that are to be explicitly taken
KC> literally?
There will always be those who take things too literally, but they exist
both inside and outside of religious thought. The same kind of behavior
outside religious thought is seen with those who say same punishment for
same crime regardless of circumstances. There always seems to be people
with a black/white view of life.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Conversation choices
|Date: 06 Mar 96 18:29:14
EID:83c3 206693a0
MSGID: 1:352/266 313E2045
KC> Think of HolySmoke as sauna therapy. Confused theists, and those
KC> willingto earn special points by converting the 'heathens' and
KC> 'Atheists[sic]'who are on this group, are generally _not_ here out of
KC> the goodness of
KC> their heart. If they're living by example, it's not one that I'd like
KC> tolive by.
Hey! Now this I agree with! I can enjoy heated but civil discussion, but
I get bored at the name calling and mud slinging.
KC> would,but HolySmoke is decidedly _anti_theistic, and _anti_religion.
KC> To changethe face of what this conference is about -- a shooting
KC> ground fortheists and atheists alike, no-holds-barred atmosphere
KC> that's designed
KC> for warfare to its height -- and to turn it into a polite, reasoned
KC> place where people sip tea and murmur quietly amongs themselves would
KC> beto take away the spirit of HS.
Yep. But I think I've figured out how to fit in! I'll see how good my own
tolerance and frustration levels hold out as I try to swim with sharks.
I don't want to change the spirit, and everyone else can remain as caustic
as they choose. However I choose to try to refrain from entering the mud
fests.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: children
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:58:57
EID:2d88 20656f40
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e0862
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Jim Germiquet <=-
KD> On (29 Feb 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Kevin D. Mckenzie...
JG> The problem with abortion is that as soon as the egg and sperm unite,
JG> you have a new unique individual human being. All it needs is food and
JG> shelter until it can fend for itself. Put a one week old child out in
JG> our chilly Candian winter and it is the same as pulling an immature
JG> unborn baby from the womb of its mother.
KD> Yet you don't force families to care for born children. Why should a
KD> woman be forced to die for something that MIGHT become a baby given
KD> time?
I would not even suggest such a thing. Any abortion done in the interest
of saving the mothers life, would be considered "self-defense" in my
opinion but even in that situation , many mothers have said "save the
baby" if you have to choose between us.
In terms of "illegal" abortions, the woman is not "forced" to die. In
those days, the woman chose to do something illegal to avoid the
responsibility inherent in having a child.
... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:58:58
EID:12a5 20656f40
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e0863
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Jim Germiquet <=-
BK> (On 02-29-96 Jim Germiquet replied to Brian Kolacy)
JG> BK> Well, isn't that a bit faithless of you...Perhaps you should
JG> BK> label yourself "agnostic"...
JG>Oh come on. Do you want people to just blindly believe what is
JG>written, without considering where those words came from and what
JG>they really mean. People can interpret the bible in various ways. WHo
JG>is to say which interpretation is the correct one ? Only God. And
JG>even the interpretation the writer intended is only as accurate as
JG>his ability to understand or comprehend what he is being told.
JG>But GOD can tell each of us personally by his spirit what he meant.
JG>And we have to answer ONLY to God and certainly not anyone in this
JG>echo.
BK> LOL! Ok, send the old boy over for tea sometime:)
He is with you even now as you are reading this message. God is a "spirit"
you cannot see him or touch him physically, but if you want to soften
your heart, you will feel him. And if you choose to listen, you will
hear him. He IS speaking to you right now. But you don't have to listen.
Your choice.
... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:58:59
EID:fc91 20656f40
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e0864
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Jim Germiquet <=-
BK> (On 02-29-96 Jim Germiquet replied to Brian Kolacy)
JG>Are you kidding. JESUS IS A JEW !
JG>And have you not heard of the group "Jews for Jesus"?
JG>Being a Christian does not mean you can't be a Jew.
JG>And it is also said that in the end times when Jesus returns again,
JG>then the Jewish nation will recognize him and accept him as the
JG>Messiah.
BK> Ah, like they did the first time, eh?
He will not be coming the same way the second time. The first time
he as a baby and grew to a man.
The next time he will come in much more dramatic fashion I believe.
JG> MH> KD> But if the evidence for Christ was sooo convincing, they
JG> MH> KD> should have all converted.
JG>
JG> MH> They weren't, because many had become legalistic and dogmatic,
JG> MH>so that they didn't recognize God when he stood before them --
JG> MH>because he didn't fit their preconceived notions. That was
JG> MH>exactly what Jesus criticized them for -- rejecting the truth in
JG> MH>favor of their own pet ideas.
JG> BK> LOL! And you say you have free will?
JG>We ALL have free will. We can even choose to not believe in God.
BK> So, which gods do you not believe in?
I believe that God is a spirit. He is the spirit of all that is good
and positive and loving and above all TRUE. We each perceive god in
our own way. Whether you call him Jehovah or Buddha or your own conscience.
I happen to believe , that spirit came in the fleshly form 2,000 years
ago in a man called Jesus. I believe his teachings are evidence of this.
My choice to believe that. Free will. I believe it because I have read
his teachings and they make sense to me. I asked God to help me understand
the context of his word. I did not let some denominational church or some
"scholar" tell me what god was saying to me.
That is why I do not trot out reams of "references" and bible commentaries.
God is personal to me. I know more have to prove He is alive than that
I am alive. I believe I am therefore I am. I believe God exists therefore
He exists. Period. I just don't pretend that my mortal being can comprehend
in entirety an immortal spirit.
... BEWARE - Tagline Thief in this echo
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:00
EID:2fad 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e0865
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE. Think about it. No point having all
JG> those orphaned children and widows around after their hubbys have died
JG> in the war.
AS> (Small voice) What?
AS> Uh...Jim....perhaps you haven't thought this through. Someone dies in
AS> World War II, say, a pilot who has a wife and kids. Are you REALLY
AS> saying we should go out and kill his widow and kids?
These things were said "tongue in cheek". But you have to take into
consideration that we are not talking about the 1940's or the present
American idea of morality and spirituality. In china they are still
killing children simply because they made a law that determines how
many children a woman can legally conceive. God has to deal with this
kind of mentality in ALL people he tries to tell what to do. He does
not and will not use people as puppets. We are free to choose what we
will believe and do. And when it comes to listening to God, we will'
only be able to do it in terms of what WE are willing to accept. We
will interpret what God says in accordance to our own system of
beliefs and what we consider appropriate behavoir. We are limited in
our ability to percieve what god is telling us. We also have to deal
with those who have no intention of listening to God. Therefore in those
times to do any less than they did would have been to show weakness and
not get the respect that winning a war brings. That was life in those
times and that was what God had to work with.
JG> And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for
JG> your new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you
JG> continue the race through the virgins.
AS> (Open mouth, close mouth, open mouth.)
AS> Jim.
AS> THINK THIS THROUGH.
AS> If after the Gulf War, we had killed ALL the widows and children of
AS> those killed in the war, and taken the virgin girls as wives for the
AS> unmarried GI males, exactly WHAT do you think the rest of the world
AS> would view us as?
AS> I don't know the explanation for that passage, but I know that the
AS> above does NOT constitute a defense for it.
AS> I'm a believer, but I'm not blind to the offensiveness of that
AS> passage.
But you are thinking in terms of todays standards and your spiritual
enlightenment. Just now the news is on of the "suicide?" bombing in
Tel Aviv. This person has given his life for what he believes is right.
The will of god. Personally the god I know does not want us to blow
each other up. HE wants the whole world to live in peace. Now tell me,
what do you do about these people who are intent on destroying you if
you are the "bombee" ? What do you think God would tell you to do ?
What do you think the people 5 or 10 THOUSAND years ago would "think"
God was telling them to do. Also what would God have to tell the people
to do in order to get those "bombers" to stop their aggression ?
I suggest that you also THINK THIS THROUGH !
How do you stop unreasonable aggressive people from slaughtering your
people if all they will respect is an equally agressive reply !
Anything less will just cause them to fight back.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:01
EID:019c 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e0866
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
NS> Jim Germiquet > Norbert Sykes : Christianity
EH> I do have one loan out. I have a loan out for a car, but no
EH> credit cards, no other loans, straight cash. I agree that we
EH> should not take out loans, but it couldn't be helped. My wife
EH> had wrecked the car we had paid cash for, shortly after we
EH> bought it. We had a little saved up for our next car, but not
EH> enough to purchase another one. So, we were forced to go get a
EH> loan, or walk.
JH> I see...
JH> You love comfort and convenience more than you love God.
NS> Maybe he didn't want to have to wait for God to pick him up. I
NS> could understand that. I'd _never_ loan my car to God. He is
JG> Whats with the personal attacks ? Is somebody hard up for debating
JG> properly? Use the old "personal attack" tactic?
NS> What personal attack do you see in this? Did I attack either of
NS> the two above? Did I attack you? Are you on 'shrooms?
Reread what you have quoted up there. It is full of "you's" or
personal references as opposed to general comments on the principles
and concepts being discussed.
And JH then states "YOU love ... more tha God" What right is there to
make such an accusation. It is like saying if you love God, you are
not allowed to enjoy comfort and convenience. And then to "personalize"
it by saying "You" makes it an attack that a person now has to defend
his personal integrity. That to me is not a proper debating tactic.
JG> What an individual does, has nothing to do with whether or not it
JG> is the right thing to do. Also we can do things we don't like to
JG> do without it being any kind of comment on our love for god.
JG> Some pretty cheap shots are being thrown around here I would say.
NS> If you can take your eyes away from the proctoscope long enough,
NS> you'll see that *I* didn't question _anyone's_ morality, ethics,
NS> etc., above. And cheap shots are POV dependent.
there was an accusation of "YOU love comfort and convenience more than
you love God." You can't get much more "personal" than that. And it
certainly does constitute questioning a persons morality in my humble
opinion.
Also my humble POV.
... Pardon me, but would you have any Blue Poupon?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:02
EID:1457 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e0867
JG> God can only reveal himself to man as man is able to perceive of God.
NS> I can buy that we are only able to perceive things in accordance to
NS> our ability to perceive, yes. But that is _us_. If your god is an
NS> omnipotent god, then he COULD choose to make a total and true
NS> revelation of himself. Right? Now, either he choses to have
NS> skewed perceptions, is not omnipotent, or doesn't exist. Which of
NS> those three choices would you subscribe to? Blaming man's
NS> limitations for the manifestation of a supreme being is idiocy. If
NS> it IS a supreme being, the limitations of man should have no sway.
God does make a total and true revelation of himself, it is WE who
choose to ignore it or misconstrue it or disbelieve it. The whole
point is that Man must be free to choose, in order to be man.
To do as you suggest would be totally counter productive to Gods'
intentions. Children often rebel against their parents because they
do not understand the rules. Make your bed, Be in by 11, No dating until
you are older.
The children are not mature enough to understand why these rules are
there. They think it is cruel and unusual punishment. It is the same
between God and his rebellious children.
JG> THESE are the perceptions men had of the will of god in these
JG> situations. Man is not always correct in his perceptions.
NS> I can understand this as well: that no one is always correct in
NS> their perceptions. But a supreme being, unless it was being petty,
NS> could choose to strengthen those perceptions, is that not correct?
NS> Especially a supreme being that supposedly engineered those
NS> perceptions. It is a lousy craftsman who blames his tools.
Yes ! And that is what God is doing by allowing us freedom of choice.
Those perceptions are a product of the choosing experience. Even
Anthony Robbins will tell you that we LEARN from our mistakes. We have
to learn to make the right choices. In order to do that we must be free
to make those choices. God gives us the right choices to make he sent
the ten commandments but it is up to us to CHOOSE to follow them.
I can tell you that it is dangerous to speed in a car. But you can
choose to speed if you want. That is free will, even though there
is a law that says don't speed. If you try and manipulate a man like
a puppet and not allow him to do what is wrong, he no longer is a man.
The essence is in this common quotation.
"If you love something set it free"
"If it comes back to you it is yours"
"If it doesnt, it never was"
You can kidnap a person and force them to live with you and do what
you say, but you can't force them to love you, care about you, be
your friend.
And that is what God wants. He want us to love him and be with him
because we "want" to, not because we have to.
JG> On top of that when people choose to do things that they know will
JG> require they forfeit their own lives, It is they who choose their fate.
NS> I agree that everyone makes their own fate. But where is your
NS> evidence that Jim Jones, etc., knew that they were engaged in acts
NS> of a questionable nature? How do you know that they didn't believe
NS> what they were doing was right? That would certainly be in keeping
NS> with the self-delusion that blind faith encourages.
I don't know what they believed. It is irrelevant. I am not the one that
will judge them.
I don't know much about the Jim Jones folks, but from the little I have
heard, they did things that God tells me are not in the best interests
of man.
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:03
EID:56f8 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e0868
NS> Especially if the people were there at the whim of a madman who
NS> raped them, abused them, and held them hostage. It's unfortunate
NS> that innocents died, but the US Government was not the one that put
NS> those people at risk. Certainly, many of them had a chance to
NS> leave at various times. BTW, I understand that in some parts of
NS> the country a warrant isn't necessary if a law enforcement officer
NS> can prove probably cause. Not being cognizant with the laws in
NS> Texas, nor the law as it applies to Federal Law Enforcement
NS> Officers in this situation, but aware of what the news coverage was
NS> like, as well as the press information, I'm satisfied that the BAFT
NS> people did all they could. The blame lies squarely on Koresh and
NS> anyone there that could have go out and didn't. And those people
NS> can probably apply blame to Koresh as well.
I can't say I agree with that. I am not satisfied that the BAFT handled
it in the best way possible. the problem is that hindsight is 20/20.
Now who would have thought that sending that tank in to knock down a
wall would ignite the place in flames. that was not a predictable event.
Unless there was a clear indication that people were being harmed inside,
I don't think an armed assault was appropriate. more appropriate would
be to ask permission for an unarmed neutral person to enter the farm to
see what the conditions were. Then much more negotiations may have been
in order. But I am not sure if these options had already been exhausted.
But when children may be in danger, there comes a time when you have to
decide if this was a Jim Jones thing where those children might be
involved in a murder suicide plot of the principles involved.
... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at Norbert" ... Zzzzzap!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:04
EID:1650 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e0869
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> \_|_|||||||||| __|_
NS> / |||| |||
NS> Jim Germiquet > Katherine Wintersnight : cult evaluation form
JG> My religion says we are all free to make our own choices.
JG> My religion has no leaders. We are all equal.
JG> My religion says each individual is free to believe what they choose.
JG> My religion stresses sharing the good news with EVERYONE !
JG> My religion has no subsidiary groups.
JG> My religion needs no money.
JG> My religion is not of this world.
JG> My religion does not control the sex lives of members.
JG> My religion excercises no control over members.
JG> My religion says all are free to come and go as they please.
JG> My religion does not endorse any type of violence
JG> My religion is based on perfect love which casts out all fear.
JG> Opponents have no power.
JG> My religion is not concerned about what people say about it.
NS> Yeah, so? What do you want, a merit badge?
Just answering the form with explanations of the figures :->
... This tagline is made just for Norbert Sykes
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:05
EID:95a6 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e086a
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
> SIGNS OF LOVE
> Read: John 14:15-24
> If you love Me, keep my commandments.
> -John 14:15
FR> SIGNS OF HATE
FR> Read: Luke 14:26
FR> "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and
FR> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
FR> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
JG> Why do I get the feeling that this verse has been misinterpreted ?
NS> I don't know Jim . . . why?
Because the god I know would not mean this in the literal sense of the
words above as we mean them today.
What do you think the word "hate" really means here, apart from the
common way we think of the word hate today?
the only definition in my dictionary that does not indicate hostility
or intense dislike is .. "to be unwilling". I think all it really means
is that anyone who "loves" their mother wife children brothers sister
or life "more" than god cannot be Jesus's disciple. The question of who
you will obey comes up. So if God says "do x" and your mom says "do not
do x". You have to show "hate" toward your mother.
SO I have attempted here by even using "todays" dictionary to show that
to "hate" your mother does not have to be a terrible thing in terms of
the definition you choose for the word hate.
But the "impression" you get just from quoting the verse literally does
not do justice to the meaning or intent of the concept.
... RAM DISK is NOT an installation procedure!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:06
EID:99f4 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e086b
JG> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE.
NS> How, by any stretch of the imagination, can you actually THINK
NS> this???
JG> Think about it.
NS> Take your own advice. Give thought a chance in your brain. Kill
NS> women and babies and children? You actually endorse this?
As I explained in a previous message, I said this "tongue in cheek". But
I also indicated that in a different time and way of life, this may have
been appropriate behavoir, although it is not in our time and society that
we live in.
... DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename"...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:07
EID:2bf9 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e086c
-=> Quoting Alan Hess to Jim Germiquet <=-
AH> Whilst masticating on , Jim Germiquet (1:2424/1004)
AH> wrote to Brian Kolacy:
JG> Are you kidding. JESUS IS A JEW !
AH> That's "WAS." He's dead.
Remember this tagline ?
"Jim he's dead"... "is, not he moved"..."you pushed him"..:-)
I want his body exhumed and an autopsy done and a death certificate
issued :-)
JG> And have you not heard of the group "Jews for Jesus"?
AH> They are misnamed Christians. People who believe in the divinity of
AH> Christ are Christians by definition.
JG> Being a Christian does not mean you can't be a Jew.
AH> It certainly does, as Jews don't believe in the divinity of Christ.
I am not going to argue "theology" with you. It is a matter of
personal faith and belief. As far as I am concerned, history shows
that Jesus was a Jew and that there are Jews who believe Jesus is the
Messiah, case closed for me.
JG> We ALL have free will. We can even choose to not believe in God.
AH> Just as we choose not to believe in pixies, tooth fairies, and Easter
AH> bunnies.
Well if you equate the teachings of Jesus Christ with tooth fairies and
easter bunnies, there is nothing I can do about it. YOUR CHOICE !
... He who dies with the most TAGLINES wins!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: childish ignorance
|Date: 05 Mar 96 13:59:08
EID:6cea 20656f60
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 210e086d
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> FR> ~*~ "And you have no proof that the Mutant Cosmic Star Goat (Braise
JG> FR> His Mane!!) didn't eat Yahweh, have Jesus for dessert, get really
JG> FR> bad gas, and now you worship a smelly methane cloud." -- Quentin
JG>If that is what you choose to believe, But do you REALLY believe that.
JG>Do you HONESTLY believe that. Do you have any logic or common sense
JG>REASON to believe that ?
KC> Well, *duh*.
KC> We have Grass on the Earth. That's proof enough for me -- it's right
KC> in front of you. Why can't you see it?
You certainly are free to believe that, pardon me if I don't give it
the same credibility I do to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:31:36
EID:d934 20663be0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 2187a5ed
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jim Germiquet <=-
MB> On (02 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Sue Armstrong...
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Steve Wallis <=-
JG> Sorry it doesn't work that way. God is limited in his ability to help
MB> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MB> It's obvious you don't believe your god is omnipotent.
Not so. God "chooses" this limitation. He is not "bound" by it.
He has designed the universe to work this way. God has GIVEN man
freedom of choice.
If you love something set it free
If it comes back to you it is yours
If it doesn't it never was.
In order to LOVE god, we have to be free to NOT love god.
Would you like a husband that loved you because he HAD to
or loved you because he CHOSE to?
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:31:37
EID:ab86 20663be0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 2187a5ee
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Jim Germiquet <=-
RC> wants.By taking any kind of loan out, a Christian is disobeying a
RC> direct command from god not to.
AM> Thats poor biblical exegesis. The idea was not to borrow money with
AM> no collaterol. If I buy a car on credit, I should put enough down, so
AM> if in dire need, I can sell and get out of debt. Its even more true
AM> borrowing for a house. A house has intrinsic value, while renting
AM> does not. Either way, a payment is due. Its your interpretation of
AM> scripture that is incorrect.
JG> Most interpretation of scripture when being used as a weapon to accuse
JG> or demean a person is incorrect. That is the same crap that Jesus had
JG> to put up with the sadduccees and the pharisees. They continually
JG> interpretted scripture in a way not intended by god. Jesus accused
JG> them of adherring to the LETTER of the law while ignoring the SPIRIT
of
JG> the law.
AM> Many who comment on this echo, don't just disbelieve in God, but
AM> loathe the God they claim they don't believe in.
Well when the light hurts your eyes, you have a tendency to close them.
You don't want to see the light.
... DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename"...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:31:38
EID:5f14 20663be0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 2187a5ef
JG> you know it seems the way you have phrased most of your points, that
JG> it is just how things worked out natural as opposed to created that
JG> way.
JG> I mean if you want I am sure you can call it the handiwork of god, but
JG> it seems he may have used natural processes to create his handiwork.
JG> You see the "laws of science" account for the conditions you set forth
JG> to have developed.
JG> The real question is where did these laws come from ?
JG> Where did ANYTHING come from, and how come we have intelligence logic
JG> and sentience to know about and define these laws ?
AM> Thats a good point Jim. It's normal for intelligent man to create
AM> intelligent things, like a computer. But how did mechanistic
AM> impersonal processes create personal moral intelligent people?
In the "scientific" explanation they leave out such things as in the
"big bang" exactly "what" went bang and "why" did it go bang and
"where" did it come from in the first place to go bang.
Then they have this "life" mystery they can't explain. you have a bunch
of amino acids, and all of a sudden one day they just decide to get
together and become "alive" so they can evolve and go out and have beer
and pizza together. Scientists set up a laboratory to try and simulate
the conditions of primal earth. Excuse me but are they not themselves
proving that an intelligence is needed to arrange these conditions. And
even then they cannot duplicate the process. They can't even define what
"life" is. You can have a live body and a dead body, side by side. What
is
the difference? Why is the live one living? What is this "life force"
Where does it come from and where does it go?
What IS the "strong nuclear force" ? In other words, what really holds
or attempts to pull everything together ?
JG> And since everything is merely an extension of mans perception and
JG> definition how do we know if it even exists beyond mans definition of
JG> it?
JG> Someone told me you could take the brain of an individual and
JG> stimulate it is such a way to have the person experience anything you
JG> wanted. Hallucinations of ghosts or ufo's, hunger, thirst, walking on
a
JG> sunny beach and he would believe he was doing that.
JG> How can anyone be sure they are not just a brain being stimulated .
JG> ANd nothin else really exists outside of our own minds ?
JG> Silly questions maybe, but of such context as to be as difficult to
JG> disprove as a "god".
AM> Just in case though, you'd still better send off your tax form.
As heady as the ideas are, As you say I do recognize that at the moment
I AM bound by these strong nuclear forces and by the natural and physical
laws of science. And while I am in no hurry to leave this physical
existence, I am in a certain sense wondering what will happen when
I walk through deaths door. Even as a "christian", I do not hold a
fundamentalists literal view of the bible and heaven and god. I believe
it is totally true in concept but open to interpretation and perception.
I kinda like the "near death" experience and out of body experience
stories :-)
... I know a good tagline when I steal one.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:31:40
EID:81a6 20663be0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 2187a5f1
-=> Quoting Andrew Masten to Jim Germiquet <=-
AM> because science can't get off the runway without philisophical
AM> presuppositions.
JG>
KDM> Perhaps, but at least science can be applied to reality. Pure
KDM> philosophy can not.
AM> Yes it can.
AM> Every time I sit in a chair, I make a philisophical value
AM> judgement, that the chair will support my weight.
JG> What happens on the day you sit in the chair and it collapses ?
AM> Then it maybe time for an agonizing reappraisal.
It is funny that we have more faith in a light bulb than in God.
When God does not answer our prayers, we are seldom surprised, but
flick the wall switch and when the light fails to go on, we flip it
up and down a couple of times to make sure because we just can't
believe it failed to go on. :-)
... Back up my hard disk? I can't find the reverse switch!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 06 Mar 96 07:31:41
EID:7efe 20663be0
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 2187a5f2
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Excuse me, but why does the fact the "believing" something by
JG> faith, have to preclude "discussion". Even the bible says we
JG> must be able to give an account as to WHY we believe. It is
JG> not JUST believe or BLIND FAITH that we must have, but a
JG> faith based on reason and common sense.
MG> Good question. Why do YOU believe?
Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing the word of god.
I have read the teachings of Jesus Christ. I agree with them.
I believe through reasoning and common sense for example that it
is better to live in a world where everyone loves one another, than
to live in a world where you always have to keep one eye open for
fear that your brother is going to stab you in the back to steal
your wife and worldly possesions.
I believe we can accomplish more if we co operate and help one another
than if each man had to work by himself.
Ten men working together can do much more than ten men working on
their own. What can the men of that group accomplish if they each have
a tree to lift that takes the strength of ten men. But if those ten men
work together, they can lift all of those trees one by one and accomplish
their task.
Can that type of thing work without trust ? What if the first man after
having his tree moved decides not to bother helping the other nine?
Trust , faith, love, these are "spiritual" matters that are dealt
with in the teachings of Jesus Christ. We fight not against flesh
and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places.
It is the "spiritual" world where man exists as a man. On a physical
level , he is just another animal. It is man's spirit that allows him
to understand "right and wrong" "good and evil". Why is it wrong to
kill my brother ? Am I my brothers keeper ?
Man has much to learn and it seems unfortunately that his technology has
leaped ahead of his spirituality, to the point that we have discovered
atomic power with are great technology, and yet with our poor
spirituality we use it to destroy our fellow man and make our planet
uninhabitable for all of us.
Were we to obey the 2 commandments that Jesus says would fulfill all the
laws of Moses
1) Love god
2) Love your neighbor.
We would never have found ourselves in this terrible predicament.
So reasoning and logic convince me of the legitimacy of the teachings
of Jesus Christ.
... Taglines are irrelevant. You will be assimilated into the Blue Wave.
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