God Damned Fundies!
|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:08e9 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 8a04b142
JB>-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to David Worrell <=-
JB> KDM> Well, it would depend. Are they pregnant and barefoot?
JB>Well, for this one, only one of the 2 is possible. I'll leave it to your
JB>imagination as to which one.
Damn, Judith, Sorry to hear that! When did they weld your shoes on?
---
* OLX 2.2 * Bigot rule #1: When you're losing, call them liberals.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: FOF "HATE" 2
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:ec62 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 31e0b662
KC>At the time, I didn't know where Fire Island, the setting of the play
was.
KC>For some reason, I thought it was off the coast of New York. Eugh. It's
KC>off the coast of San Francisco. Sigh. Other than that, I made a 78 on
the
KC>paper (because I got the setting wrong) After seeing the play, I was
amazed
KC>at how accurate my review had been.
KC>Just some mental masturbation...
Urk. You're doing it too much. Fire Island is the south shore of
Long Island in NY!
---
* OLX 2.2 * Ping Pong Balls: A Chinese venereal disease.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: lack of any Evidence
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:c8d4 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 3f966c45
JG>You see even a LIE can have beneficial effects if people believe it to
JG>be true. In fact the belief in it will eventually make it become true
JG>when people act on it .
JG>WHAT A CONCEPT !!!
JG>By BELIEVING in something and ACTING on it you make it a REALITY !!!
I believed I could fly. I acted on it.
I fell off the roof and broke my fucking leg.
JG>EUREKA !!!!
EURAMORON !!!!
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundys are like computers, they have lots of flip-flops.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Bible
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:c922 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org d2bebea6
BJ> The bible is inspired by God!
BJ>2 Timothy 3:16
BJ>All scripture given by [inspiration] of God, and
BJ>profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
BJ>instruction in righteousness:
So why is it wrong in so many places?
BJ>... And now, some words of wisdom:
BJ>Life is like .......... an analogy.
Like, wow, awesome.
Moron.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Half the people in the world are stupider than average.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:354f 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org e728b695
ED> AG> Brother, they have carbon dated contemporary things to millions
of
ED> AG> years old. Just takle God at His Word.
ED>PS>No, they haven't. C-14 dating is used on organic materials and never
for
ED>PS>dates into the millions of years. They leave that to the uranium-lead
or
ED>PSpotassium-argon methods.
ED>Carbon-14 dating is used to date "recent" objects. Recent meaning no
more tha
ED>50,000 years.
THAT IS WHAT PRESTON SAID, MORON!
ED>As far as dating contemporary things, one does get false old ages. For
ED>example, the grass near a highway always shows that its millions years
old,
ED>when one uses carbon 14 dating. This is due to the burning of fossil
fuels
ED>which contributes to a higher ratio of "old" carbon(14) dioxide to carbon-12
ED>dioxide.
You're correcting the wrong person.
---
* OLX 2.2 * He's not a complete idiot...some parts are missing.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:4d0d 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org d276e292
AM> Many who comment on this echo, don't just disbelieve in God, but loathe
AM> the God they claim they don't believe in.
A logical impossibility. One cannot loathe that which doesn't exist,
or which one does not believes exists.
---
* OLX 2.2 * If idiots could fly, he would be a 747.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:68ca 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org e7850c3b
AM> Jim, your not gonna make alot of friends in this echo. But I like
your
AM> hudspa.
His hudspa?
Is that like his one-eyed worm with a turtleneck sweater?
---
* OLX 2.2 * 2 rules for success: (1) Don't tell everything you know..
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:3e48 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 1057129b
MG> GR>> He requested it from Abraham and sacrificed his own son.
MG> KM> Abraham never believe that God would actually make him sacrifice
MG> KM> his own son.
MG>Bible quotes for this please. Where does Abe state that he does not
believe
MG>that god will tkae his son?
I sent this to Kennyboy already, but if you like you can save it:
The First Book of Moses, Called Genesis
Chapter 22
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built
an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and
laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his
son.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For anyone other than braindead fundys, what it says is incontrovertibly
clear.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Better to light one fundy than curse the darkness.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:dcf6 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org cbed05f8
MG> GR>> Be conservative. Believe Mark 16:15-18. Or do you get
MG> GR>> liberal when it is your ass on the line?
MG> MH> By now you have received my response to this. You bore me. If
MG> MH> you can't come up with anything better, I'll add you to my
MG> MH> twit filter. I've been in this echo long enough to have no
MG> MH> patience for one-note singers.
MG>While I agree with you on his level of maturity, I would like to know
what
MG>your answer to this is. do you not believe the passage? Do you not
believe
MG>that your god will not kill the true believer if poison is taken?
He thinks it is a bogus passage, having been added by unidentified
bad-guys in the long ago.
He also says nothing has been added or taken away. (maybe having
to do with jots and/or tittles...?)
Don't ask....I cannot explain it.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Bought my sister a bike. Now she peddles it all over town
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: QUOTE
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:d79a 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 9f9f214c
MG> MG>> So are you denying that evolution took place?
MG> MH> No, I'm not.
MG>That's good. From your quote above, you indicate that scientists ran
scared
MG>when the "lack of fossil evidence" made it necessary too "invent" PE.
MG>Nothing is further from the truth. One of the first things they teach
you in
MG>science is the distinction between an invention and a discovery. The
light
MG>bulb was an invention. Evolution is a discovery. That means that it
has bee
MG>there all along as a natural phenomenae and Darwin was the first to notice
it
MG>operation.
MG>This is a perfect example of how science works. The Theory of Evolution
was
MG>changed becasue those that studied it found tht perhaps it worked differently
Arguing with Mikey about science is much like debating chili recipes
with a crayfish.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Multitasking: Start a download, go get a beer...
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:0e78 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 57df98f7
JA>was, to put it simply, crazy. I guess I wanted to see for myself if
JA>this was true. Also, I stopped going to church, and stopped listening
JA>to what everyone was telling me, and made my own conclusions. Now I'm
JA>an ex-fundy and I'm glad. I mean, anyone would be when they see how
JA>stupid they acted when they WERE as fundy as I was. I didn't make any
JA>sense whatsoever, and I can see why everyone ere got a good laugh out
of
JA>me.:)
Welcome to the real world, Joanna! Rejoice in your own reality
and enjoy life!
Non carborundum illegitimus.
---
* OLX 2.2 * I planted an algebra tree. It has square roots.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Hardy
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:c2f0 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 2e32e376
JH> KDM> I'd disagree. JJ sort of smashed everything together, but
JH> KDM> it preserves what the source is saying.
JH> I'd have made a great compression algorithm.
I've finished my new squeeze program. Puts PKZIP (c) to shame...
a compression ratio of 10,000,000 bytes / 1.
Having a little trouble with the unsqueezer part, though...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Certainly I support the right to arm bears.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:fc8a 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 00c50555
J. J. Hitt to George Mooth:
JH>Giant Spaceships Heading Towards Earth!
JH>Exclusive to the Dixie Free Press
JH>By Pat Parrinello
JH>Recent light has been shed on the reason that the SETI (Search For
JH>Extraterrestrial Intelligence) project has been cancelled by the
JH>government. It seems that something was starting to happen.
You realize you're going to drive him craz.....
Uh, never mind...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Does the Godfather have Satanchildren?
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:167a 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org a243275d
JH> KM> But while I lived, regardless of whether God exist or not, I
JH> KM> will have lived my life for something that I believed in, right
JH> KM> or wrong.
JH> Have you ever met anyone who claimed they were living their life
JH> for something they didn't believe in?
Uh, I'm not so sure. I live my life for sex, but I'm not sure it
exists...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Join the Pistol club. Drink til 12, pistol 3.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:6db4 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 33ae6cc3
DC>-> On 02-29-96 02:37, Jim Germiquet got back to Don Martin
DC> JG> God does NOT send "anyone" to hell. Hell is a natural outcome of
DC>Would your mother send you to hell for eternity? Would you send
DC>your kids to hell for eternity?
I'm not really sure I want to hear the answer to this...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Rodentia: Having a dead mouse stuck between your teeth.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Hi
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:27be 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org beefd5d9
DC>-> On 03-03-96 03:55, J.j. Hitt got back to Kenneth Cavness
DC> JH> And there you miss the total beauty of this medium. A message
DC> JH> truly stands or falls solely on it's intellectual content. The
DC> JH> age, sex, race, social position, economic level or ethnic
DC> JH> heritage of the speaker is totaly immaterial here.
DC>Well said.
DC>I wonder if george rudzinski has taken the time to read what
DC>you wrote...
I don't think George is a racist, Dan. Actually, I have wondered
myself about whether there are blacks on this echo...simple curio-
sity. I think you guys are ascribing bigotry mistakenly.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Peter Pan: A washbasin in a whorehouse.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Question
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:9d54 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org f00a8ae8
SA> > ... Conservative integration - A white golfer with a black caddie.
SA>This white non-golfer used to drive a black Cadillac.
SA>Your tagline was typical of a something that a racist would say,
SA>George. Do you want to sound like a racist?
Styx, I cannot believe George is a racist. A lousy speller, yes...
he meant 'caddy'...in which case it's humorous irony. (although
I'm not sure how the diminutive for Cadillac is really spelled,
I don't think that's what was implied)...
Looks to me like it was merely a way to point out hypocrisy...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Ping Pong Balls: A Chinese venereal disease.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Inertia
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:e130 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 94c84e58
MM>DW> The laws of inertia apply to all things, even subject headers. :-)
MM>Seems to be true, but effort is the key. Just a bit of energy and time
is
MM>required to change the subject header. Probably the inertia effect is
also
Thing is, most people don't even read them.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Fundys are like computers, they have lots of flip-flops.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Keyword search
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:e294 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org c86f94a8
MM>Heheh I think I've developed a method that's working pretty good. I fast
scan
MM>certain authors, and then have fun looking for my own quoted materials
as
MM>others discuss my posts.
MM>I'm gradually learning how to swim these waters, sharks and all.
Don't forget, there are rhinocodon typii lurking...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Grow your own dope. Plant a Fundy.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:6097 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org c79e3960
AS> KS> I have a few extra computer parts that would be glad to send to
you
AS> KS> if you need them...a floppy drive, I/O board, a few cables...etc.
AS> I appreciate the offer, but I have a new/used system that seems to be
AS> working fine (for now...although I have my suspicions that we may have
to
OK, good.
AS>... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing.
heh, heh...
---
* OLX 2.2 * Guns don't kill. High-velocity projectiles do.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: White-lighter Religio
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:42c6 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 563280f8
KD>On (02 Mar 96) Karl Schneider wrote to John Prewett...
KD> KS> ROFL. Does it bother it that your Jesus was a 'fag'?
KD>I believe it is in the Gospel of John where John is laying with his head
KD>on Jesus' chest or stomach [very intimate, that, in a culture where male
KD>intimacy is frowned on] and referring to himself as "the apostle whom
KD>Jesus loved."
That is just one of many places. All sorts of kissing going on...
and the mostly naked boy in the woods...it's all clear to me.
---
* OLX 2.2 * He's like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Quality fundy time
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:28dc 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org fa7ba4b5
DC> GR>Mark 16:15-18. I'll pour.
DC> KS> He has explained it, George. These verses were allegedly added
DC> KS> at 'some later time' by 'some unknown person'. It's all very
DC> KS> fucking convenient. I guess God was on vacation when that
DC> KS> 'unknown person' fucked up his instruction manual.
DC>The bigger questions are why the god:
DC>A: Didn't strike the interlopper dead on the spot.
DC>B: It took the god umpteen centuries to figure it out.
He was off on some other world making a flood and hiding the
evidence?
---
* OLX 2.2 * Weird fact: There are more horse's asses than horses...
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:45:00
EID:e78e 20688da0
MSGID: 1:170/309@fidonet.org e207079a
MH> The resurrection of Jesus must have really happened, because people
who
MH> lived at the same time and in the same place knew it happened. And
MH> anyone with an IQ over 20 -- which probably leaves you out, I know --
MH> realizes that people who live at the time and place an event happens
MH> know more about it than people 1,900+ years later thousands of miles
MH> away.
ROFL! You work for a newspaper (so you say) that reports events
less than 24 hours ago and gets most of it WRONG.
MH> Happy?
Extremely.
---
* OLX 2.2 * Half the people in the world are stupider than average.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: arguments
|Date: 08 Mar 96 07:09:00
EID:6ee5 20683920
MSGID: 1:116/19 0313621E
MH> Pascal said that God is revealed just enough so that those who seek
MH> will find, and hidden just enough that those who wish to ignore him
MH> may do so -- all for the sake of making sure that our choice to
MH> believe and follow him is truly made of our own free will.
Yeah, I think Ellis must have been reading him, because he makes much the
same point in BEFORE THE BEGINNING...that a God always readily apparent
would cause some to do the moral thing not BECAUSE it was the moral thing,
but because they felt, in effect, "the principal is watching".
... I came, I saw, got sidetracked, forgot why I was here ..
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Baha'i
|Date: 08 Mar 96 08:01:00
EID:3b3c 20684020
MSGID: 1:116/19 0313775E
Ro> Where do you "kikes, hebes, hymies" get-off calling Christians
Ro> "fundies"?
Ahhhh...where do you get off calling JESUS...a Jew...PETER...a
Jew...John, the apostle...a Jew. David, Abraham, etc..."kikes, hebes,
hymies"? Or for that matter Albert Einstein, Steven Spielberg, Disraeli,
etc.?
I'M a Christian, Roadie, Christian enough to actually READ the Bible I
am espousing. Read John's epistles, how one who "hates his brother walks
in darkness". If you think it is CHRISTIAN to be a BIGOT and a NAZI
concerning ANY people, much less those who God Himself used to reveal His
word, and whom Jesus was born among...then your idea of Christianity is
even poorer than your idea of Judaism.
No wonder you're too COWARDLY to use your real name, and too
UNINTELLIGENT to resort to anything but racial epithets, and how much you
fit the description Jesus had when He said, "Many will call 'Lord, Lord,'
and I will say, I knew ye not". Are you under the odd impression that
peddling hate wins you any points with Jesus? Have you ever READ the
Bible? Or is your impression of the Bible only gleamed from the crosses
you burn in front of houses when you hide your face behind the white hood?
Have a LOVELY day.
... Did I.Q.s drop sharply when I wasn't looking?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: churches
|Date: 08 Mar 96 08:06:00
EID:6452 206840c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03138E6A
KW> J.J. is probably as close to you as s\he is to me, remember TX is a
KW> big state (I'm closer to LA than I am to Dallas). I'm missing a lot
of
KW> messages here, anyway, so there is no telling if the problem was your
KW> outgoing or my incoming.
True. Even my new BBS, I noticed at least one day when there were no
messages, an impossibility in Holy Smoke, so I conclude that it is my BBS.
So probably some people are ticked that I haven't answered them yet.
KW> How are the boys handling things? I would assume that they are upset
KW> for the disruption in their lives, if nothing else.
Well, ACTUALLY, since I live in largish apartments, they moved us to
another apartment that they were just cleaning after someone moved out
laid out exactly like the old one. I'm not sure how much Jamie and Eric
understood of what was going on...we ended up replacing their furniture
because it smelled too much like smoke, but since the place is pretty much
laid out like the old one, even though they know they're in a different
place, it's not as disorienting as it could be. Brian, the speaking one,
is doing fine, and really he's the hero of the hour, because he's the one
who spotted the smoke, who told the neighbor to dial 911, etc. I think
they are pretty well acclimated. There were not a lot of sleepless nights
for them, or anything.
... I am NOT a cynic - I just remember last time too well!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: hi
|Date: 08 Mar 96 08:06:00
EID:e956 206840c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0313B264
AS> JH> Sorry, but if the Emperor is walking down the street buckass
AS> JH> naked, I reserve the right to giggle.
AS> KW> Or stare in awe. It depends on the Emperor.
AS> And the size of his sceptre, perhaps?
KW> Not to mention his orbs ;).
Hmmm...all the sudden to be "screwed royally" is more than just an
expression...
... You're twisted and sick; I like that in a person!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 08 Mar 96 08:00:00
EID:5fbd 20684000
MSGID: 1:116/19 0313CB32
AS> How many grandchildren and great-grandchildren did he have?
MS> Hmmmm, I'm not quite sure, but, I think 19 grandchildren and 12
MS> great grandchildren with one more on the way.
Big brood. I'm sure he is missed by all.
... All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Question
|Date: 08 Mar 96 08:00:00
EID:4f7c 20684000
MSGID: 1:116/19 0313DEA6
AS> It's a false statement anyway. Jack Butler (aka the Raven) is Indian,
AS> and I know another Canadian posters said she was Indian/Amerind/Native
AS> American (take your pick--I know Jack prefers the term "Indian").
AS> Neither can be classed as "white" unless you ONLY use it to mean "not
AS> black". Which, of course, is a sort of prejudice anyway. You welcomed
AS> a poster from Japan, and certainly he was Oriental, and judging from
AS> his land name, the Jason with a Japanese last name who was an
AS> astronomer who posted here four months or so ago was also Oriental.
MH> I'm not Oriental, but I am sometimes disoriented. Does that count? :)
I guess so. I don't qualify...I lost some stuff in a fire by accident,
which would make me an Accidental, not an Oriental.
... You think time heals everything? Try waiting in a doctor's office.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 08 Mar 96 00:09:00
EID:e650 20680120
MSGID: 1:116/19 0313F5E4
JG> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE. Think about it. No point having all
JG> those orphaned children and widows around after their hubbys have died
JG> in the war.
AS> (Small voice) What?
AS> Uh...Jim....perhaps you haven't thought this through. Someone dies in
AS> World War II, say, a pilot who has a wife and kids. Are you REALLY
AS> saying we should go out and kill his widow and kids?
JG> These things were said "tongue in cheek". But you have to take into
Then PLEASE put a after it. Although I have to wonder at your sense
of
humor.
JG> consideration that we are not talking about the 1940's or the present
JG> American idea of morality and spirituality. In china they are still
JG> killing children simply because they made a law that determines how
JG> many children a woman can legally conceive. God has to deal with this
JG> kind of mentality in ALL people he tries to tell what to do. He does
JG> not and will not use people as puppets. We are free to choose what we
JG> will believe and do. And when it comes to listening to God, we will'
JG> only be able to do it in terms of what WE are willing to accept. We
JG> will interpret what God says in accordance to our own system of
JG> beliefs and what we consider appropriate behavoir. We are limited in
JG> our ability to percieve what god is telling us. We also have to deal
JG> with those who have no intention of listening to God. Therefore in
JG> those times to do any less than they did would have been to show
JG> weakness and not get the respect that winning a war brings. That was
JG> life in those times and that was what God had to work with.
Um. Although I do agree that God sometimes has to make His arguments fit
the stage the people were in, and yes, I do know that oftentimes whole
villages and peoples were wiped out routinely in that time, a God who
couldn't temper that with a little mercy, unless there was a good reason
not to, quite frankly, is bending TOO much to accomodate the people. Of
course, God only told Moses to "avenge themselves on the Midianities", as
John Brawley rightly points out. It was MOSES who gave that order, and to
an extent, must bear some of the guilt.
Now quite frankly, there MIGHT have been a reason for killing the
non-virgin women. Reading prior to that infamous incident we find many of
the Israelite men were seduced by the Midianite women, both literally and
into worshipping Baal.
These days we like to pretend all religions are equal. Well, some really
ARE more harmful than others. The Molech belief system, which often went
with the Baal belief system (there is some controversy over whether the
Pheonician-influenced peoples actually worshipped a seperate god called
Molech or whether that was the name of the ceremony of their sacrifices)
entailed the sacrificing of children. That is iron clad, and we have
archeological evidence of tophits dug up in Carthage (a Pheonician colony)
and other places giving us evidence of that. I suspect, given God's anger
over such, as opposed to other places where He is more easy-going and
long-suffering, that it entailed such, but that is just a guess on my
part.
Moses might have concluded---rightly or wrongly--that as long as the
Midianite non-virgin women (those who would, presumably, be the most
skilled at "seducing") were alive, that there was a danger that their
sexiness would lure Israelite men into sacrificing of children, both
Midianite and Israelite. That as long as they lived, there was that
danger. He might also have concluded that the young males would have grown
up to become warriors who would try to avenge the loss of their parents,
and so worry Israel and perhaps join with other Midianites scattered
about---indeed, there seems to have been a confederacy of allied people
that attacked them later anyway. In a pre-gunfire world, males WERE more
of a potential danger than females, because armor and swords and shields
were so heavy. Amazons were few and far between. (Nor is there any
indication that the virgin Midianite girls--who were probably pretty
young, it being common in that part of the world to marry very young--were
used for sex. Indeed, given the Jewish prohibition against marrying
outsiders, it seems more likely they were made servants, although I doubt
if one can argue servanthood is better than concubinage.)
But that's all theory. I can't really justify it from what is written,
just using what I know of Baal and Molech-worship as a plausible
justification, and I might be totally wrong.
JG> And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for
JG> your new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you
JG> continue the race through the virgins.
AS> (Open mouth, close mouth, open mouth.)
AS> Jim.
AS> THINK THIS THROUGH.
AS> If after the Gulf War, we had killed ALL the widows and children of
AS> those killed in the war, and taken the virgin girls as wives for the
AS> unmarried GI males, exactly WHAT do you think the rest of the world
AS> would view us as?
AS> I don't know the explanation for that passage, but I know that the
AS> above does NOT constitute a defense for it.
AS> I'm a believer, but I'm not blind to the offensiveness of that
AS> passage.
JG> But you are thinking in terms of todays standards and your spiritual
JG> enlightenment. Just now the news is on of the "suicide?" bombing in
JG> Tel Aviv. This person has given his life for what he believes is
JG> right. The will of god. Personally the god I know does not want us to
JG> blow each other up. HE wants the whole world to live in peace. Now
JG> tell me, what do you do about these people who are intent on
JG> destroying you if you are the "bombee" ? What do you think God would
Stop them and jail them before more people are killed.
JG> tell you to do ? What do you think the people 5 or 10 THOUSAND years
Forgive them their trespasses, but still get them away from a position
where they can't kill others. The New Testament isn't a suicide pact. One
can use limited violence to prevent a greater violence.
JG> ago would "think" God was telling them to do. Also what would God have
Of the BOMBERS being told to do the "will of God"? That it's barbaric. But
of course, that's what I think NOW of people who blow up innocents in the
name of God.
JG> to tell the people to do in order to get those "bombers" to stop their
JG> aggression ?
See above. Stop them and get them where they cannot bomb others.
JG> I suggest that you also THINK THIS THROUGH !
I am, Jim.
JG> How do you stop unreasonable aggressive people from slaughtering your
JG> people if all they will respect is an equally agressive reply !
Sometimes that happens. Witness World War II. But to descend too far,
where you cannot tell the difference between the two sides in what they
do, but only their ideologies...makes you no better than they are. The
fact that the Nazis sent the Jews to concentration camps does NOT justify
us sending the Japenese to milder internment camps. (Milder in the sense
that they were not killed in it.)
JG> Anything less will just cause them to fight back.
Again. If you are no better than they, are you really doing God's work?
This is a hard one, Jim, for any believer. What I found offensive was
your (now claimed to be tongue in cheek) blithe way of assuming widows and
children can be killed with impunity. Some things ARE relative, but I
think that is one where I would want to be able to say my God is better
than that. It is worth agonizing over, and sometimes the best response in
this forum, when you don't know the answer, is a simiple, "I don't know".
... Maybe this world is another planet's Hell.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 08 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:0883 20682040
MSGID: 1:116/19 03140BC4
AS> People try to put us down...
AS> (Talkin' 'bout our generation...)
AS> Just because we get around...
AS>
NS> Ah...another dinosaur like myself. Sigh. Those were the days.
NS> Last night saw Dennis Miller, who said: When is Bill Clinton ever
NS> going to wise up and tell us the truth... "Yes. I inhaled, and
NS> then I drank the fuckin' bong water!"
Too true. Tell the truth and shame Pat Buchanan. If he had just admitted
it
straight up, it probably wouldn't have been as big an issue.
NS> Bong. Another word on the 'Huh' list... BTW, wasn't it
NS> supposed to be _MY_ generation? Or am I having a flashback?
Boy, I haven't heard of people talking about a 'bong' in years...I can
remember the bong shop I used to go into to get underground comics
like ZAP Comics and the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers....
Do you remember Nehru jackets? Sometimes I think I'm the only one who
does...
And no, you're not having a flashback, but obviously the sixties were
better to me than I thought, or else it is creeping senility. It IS "my"
generation.
... Nostalgia...all the good times you never had.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 08 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:6a7f 20681920
MSGID: 1:116/19 031421CC
MB> This is a VERY weak argument, Al. The "reason" s many diverse
MB> cultures have had a need for myth is simple; they have questions
MB> they can't answer. Have you ever had something that was sticking
MB> in your craw? something that kept plaguing you to the point where
MB> you couldn't adequately concentrate on other issues? something
MB> that made it difficult to do the thigns you must do in order to be
MB> effective in life? Most of us have. We will be doing our jobs and,
MB> suddenly it occurs to us that our mind has wandered onto the
MB> question that seems to have no answer.
Of course. But that is true even now. The biggest questions are no more
answered in our time than in Plato's time. Free will vs. determinism
(even from an atheistic viewpoint--do YOU decide, or are you MERELY the
sum of your past experiences and upbringing and genetics?). Whether
the particulars we observe and the larger concepts they embody (for
instance, whether mathematics have any existence apart from the
individual objects, whether there are ideal forms that what we perceive
are pale reflections of, as Plato thought.)...things like that. Whether
the mind has any existence apart from the brain. (the mind-body
problem). Things like that.
MB> When that occurs, myth can be a very useful tool to putting the
MB> matter at rest so we can get on with our more mundane existences.
MB> If one is privileged enough to be able to spend one's life
MB> exploring such questions, as are philsophers and scientists, well
MB> and good. But for most of us these cosmic unanswerables merely
MB> make our lives more difficult until we have some sort of an answer
MB> that will put the question to rest in our minds. So, along comes
MB> the mythmakers, more than happy to accommodate us to that end.
And yet, religious people can be as puzzled by the philosophical
questions mentioned above as the non-religious, even if they might
rephrase it (in the free will question, is it _I_ who decide or God?)
and notice that Job never really got an answer from God on the question
of why he had to suffer. Like many discoveries, it opens more questions
even when it answers others.
MB> The "need" for myth would have been even greater among ancient
MB> peoples who had so many more unanswerable questions than we do. It
MB> is clear that myths did not arise out of some basic need for
MB> religion, but rather religion arose of some basic need for
MB> myth.
But I have many more unanswered questions that the ancients would never
dream of...what is dark matter, is the universe open or closed, how can
a photon be both a particle and a wave, etc. I don't resort to mythology
to solve them. And we see myth in preliterate cultures where such formal
thinking about the question of life rarely arises.
I will agree with you that myth probably predates formal religion.
But the hunger for that myth...the myth of a dying and then reborn god,
which occurs in so many cultures...is it JUST a metaphor for the changing
of the seasons? And if so, why does it occur in cultures along the
equator, where the seasons are basically rainy and dry? It seems even
deeper, almost an instinct with us. And I think it at least worth
considering that it might be an instinct for something we NEED.
... Entropy always wins.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: WHO CARES?
|Date: 08 Mar 96 02:07:00
EID:125e 206810e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 03142B5E
MB> That isn't what I said at all. I'm reiterate.
MB> I said that 37 days did not necessarily constitute a violation,
MB> because he couldhave installed the software, then gone on a
MB> week's vacation, which would mean he had actually been using
MB> it for exactly 30 days. Also, he could have sent in his money
MB> for registration and not yet received the registered version
MB> in the mail: 7 days is hardly a lifetime.
MB> Also, if the mere 7 days were, indeed, a violation, he at least
MB> had the saving grace of not bragging about holding the moral
MB> high road, which would be compounding the error.
MB> Now, where in the above have I said what you said I said?
You're right. I misremembered the last part of the statement, and forgot
the "not bragging about holding the moral high ground" and instead
thought you were saying he was exempt from such standards. There were
several posts at the same time, and I may have confused you with some of
the other ones(remember a while ago I was doing it quickly at work.)
Still, that's not an excuse, just an explanation, and I apologive.
(I wrote the response when I had my new system, but I originally read the
first message you sent to Michael about it back when I was computerless
at home.)
MB> The point I'm making is that is wouldn't stop him from stealing
MB> software. Judging from his response to our taunts, it is clear
MB> to me that he has more stolen software on his system than just
MB> this one APPARENT theift. Whitewashing this APPARENT theft only
MB> allows him the luxury ofhiding his thievery, and I see that as
MB> simply adding another form of dishonesty to the now APPARENT
MB> from he is currently practicing.
I see it as one step at a time. I don't expect people to change
completely. I just want them to take it a step at a time on the road to
changing. And the first step needs to be made.
This is the first step.
... I'm not evil, I'm "morally challenged".
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 08 Mar 96 04:02:00
EID:f65a 20682040
MSGID: 1:116/19 03144314
MB> IO see a HUGE qualitative difference between wiping out the
MB> Midianties because they worship the wrong god and allowing people
MB> to die of old age and disease. If you don't, I can do nothing but
MB> question your sense of ethics.
Oh, I can too. You may notice a letter from me to Jim G., this packet,
about me taking him to task for saying it sounded "humane" to him. I
don't know the answer to the Midianite thing, Marilyn, I really don't.
Oh, I can make guesses, and offered Jim a few. For instance, some of
those who followed the Baal religion (which it states explicitly they
did) adopted the Molech sacrifice system of sacrificing children,
routinely. (In fact there is some controversy in archeological circles
whether Molech is a distinct god, or the name of the ceremony by which
the children were sacrificed to Baal.) It also states, a little prior
to that order, that Midianite women "seduced" Iraelite men and brought
them to the worship of Baal.
Now, sometimes, there are REAL qualitative differences between
religions. A religion that routinely sacrifices children I think, by any
reasonable standard, is worse than one that does not. Think how many
children might have been sacrificed over the centuries if such a
religion became the norm of the Roman Empire and lasted as long as
Christianity has. It does indeed make a difference. The Aztecs practiced
sacrifice, but at least they used adults.
Now notice, Jehovah only said that the Israelites were to avenge
themselves on the Midianites, as John Brawley pointed out. It was Moses
who issued that order, and maybe he saw it as a danger to his people
adopting such a practice, and feared if the non-virginal women remained,
they would surely seduce many away and so open more of his people--his
children--to sacrifice.
Suppose you found out those dear to you were about to join a religion
that LITERALLY sacrificed children? Would you sit idly by? And would
continue to do so as long as such a culture existed? Could you stand idly
by and let it exist and know as long as it existed more innocents would
be sacrificed? (I.E., if you were in a country that existed peacefully
next to Nazi Germany while it was running the deathcamps, could you sit
idly by?)
Is it worth killing many Germans to stop such atrocities of innocents
to continue for all time? Perhaps as a pacifist, you will say "no". I
think the answer in some cases needs to be yes.
But I am not unaware of the irony here, that women and children, as in
young boys, were killed--sacrificed, if you will--by the Israelities. Of
course, young boys can grow up to be grown warriors, and males are much
more dangerous in such early cultures, where strength indeed makes a
difference in battle. But whether this killing can be justified as (A)
payment for the thousands or tens of thousands who may have been killed
in the past or (b) to prevent tens of thousands in the future...that is
indeed an iffy question.
And of course it is all a hypothesis. It fits what we know of some
aspects of the religion that carried Baal-worship, but we don't have a
specific reference that says the Midianites did sacrifice to children, as
we do of other Phonecian-derived cultures, where it undoubtedly took
place.
MB> Only in your dreams. You mean after all this time you didn't
MB> know that I'm a pacifist? I don't believe the State has the
MB> "right" to kill for ANY reason, nor do I believe individuals do.
I knew there were some things you leaned that way about, but no, I wasn't
aware that you were a pacifist in all things. So...not criticizing, just
making sure of my ground...are you saying that a policeman, for instance,
may not use deadly force to stop a sniper from killing others? Or to stop
a rapist? Or that no war is ever justified, even against, say, Hitler and
his death camps? (And again, I am struck by the irony that I, as a theist
and a believer in a savior who urged us to "turn the other cheek" and "he
who is without sin cast the first stone" feels there ARE times for
justified violence, and you, as a nontheist, might not. And that Jesus
might approve of your stance before mine---"he who lives by the sword
shall die by it")
MB> Or, in this case, his lack of a sense of fairness. Not me, Al,
MB> not me. This is one of the ways that I am certain your god doesn't
MB> exist. His utter hypocrisy tells me of his nonexistence.
And yet...I daresay you would not let a chimpanzee drive a car. Or a two
year old. Because they have not the judgement to use something so
dangerous. Why is THAT different than God reserving some things for
Himself? Obviously there must be some real qualitative diferences between
a infinite, omniscient, omnipotent being and ourselves.
MB> I do not pay homage to ANY form of authoritarian inconsistency,
MB> no. I do not respect bosses who tell me I can't make personal
MB> phone calls at work, and then when I walk into their work area I find
MB> them talking to a bowling buddy; I do not respect any authority
MB> figure who tells me I can't exact vengeance, and then publickly
MB> declares "vengeance is mine." I think your (and the Bible's)
MB> concept stinks like three-day-old fish.
But of course, a boss is a human being like yourself. Are you a strict
vegetarian? If not, then are not you following an inconsistency, allowing
the murder of animals or fish that you would not allow for human beings?
And, if that is the way you feel about a boss...how would you feel
about a CEO, say, who hears various complaints and decides to go
undercover as an employee in the mail room, and hears all the complaints
first hand, only to be totally put upon by a middle-management petty
tyrant who tries to have him (who he thinks is a mail room employee)
fired, disgraced, framed, etc.? Who experiences all the inconveniences
his employees do first hand, as one of them?
For that is a business parable for what Jesus did.
MB> Double standards are the epitome of hypocracy. I don't respect
MB> hypocrites, and I certainly don't bow down and worship them!
It is only hypocrisy if you equate yourself with God, and feel there is
no difference between you and He; in which case, the very vaccinations
you receive murder beings with as much right to live as yourself, i.e.,
germs and viruses. Every time you spray Lysol and kill some germs, you
are a mass murderer...unless you recognize an intrinsic difference
between yourself and germs and viruses. _I_ do. Do you?
Similarly, I acknowledge an intrinsic difference between an infinite,
eternal being---who indeed, is responsible for anyone existing, in my
view...and myself.
MB> Oh, yes. I'd exist without him. I'm here, aren't I? Where is
MB> he? I do not see him, nor do I acknowledge the petty tyrant in
MB> my imagination.
I'm sure Charlie Schultz could make Charlie Brown have the exact same
thought balloon as what you just said. And similarly, Charlie Brown
might wonder about his creator, and why he cannot perceive him.
... Error, no Keyboard - Press F1 to Continue.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:20:04
EID:65f6 20668a80
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0245
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JG> MH> Yes, I do. It just isn't unambiguous and simplistic. It is that
JG> MH> God punishes those guilty of evil. If God did indeed order the
JG> MH>killing of truly innocent children along with the guilty adults,
JG> MH>then I would suppose that the ending of their physical life was
JG> MH>not the judgment, but what happens after. If so, then I believe
JG> MH>the innocent children who, unfortunately, lost their physical
JG> MH>lives, gain eternal life in heaven and thus aren't punished at
JG> MH>all.
JG> KDM> Then what's the problem with abortion?
JG>
JG>The problem with abortion is that as soon as the egg and sperm unite,
JG>you have a new unique individual human being. All it needs is food
JG>and shelter until it can fend for itself. Put a one week old child
JG>out in our chilly Candian winter and it is the same as pulling an
JG>immature unborn baby from the womb of its mother.
Please read the quote I was responding to, OK?
And let me explain the difference between the two -- once the child is
out of the womb, *anyone* can take care of it. While it is in the womb,
the mother is forced to do so. So, while in the womb, the mother can
and does control the child's fate.
... Do it today. Tomorrow it will be illegal.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:20:05
EID:c6a2 20668a80
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0256
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM> AM> In one sense your right, because it seems like only Christians
AM> AM> on this echo state thier beliefs. But I don't see why the
AM> AM> rules of evidence should be suspended in a counter argument.
AM>
AM> KDM> Because we aren't making the claims.
AM>
AM> You claim that were here by natural causes apart from God.
Sorry. Try again.
... If a dragonrider had a pet wolf, it'd be a weyr-wolf!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:21:06
EID:c6a2 20668aa0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0267
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AM> AM> AM> The three aforementioned scientists collaborated on a book
AM> AM> AM> called; " Extraterrestrail Life" Mitt press 1973. I don't
AM> AM> AM> know how they arrived at that figure, I know that Carl
AM> AM> AM> Sagan believes in evolution.
AM> AM> KDM> That tells me absolutely nothing.
AM> AM> It tells you enough to borrow a copy from the library and
AM> AM> look up the information you want.
AM>
AM> KDM> Why don't you get the book? You make a claim, you provide the
AM> KDM> evidence.
AM>
AM> 'Cause I didn't ask how the numbers were arrived at. If you doubt
AM> it, persue the matter yourself.
Nope. I have neither the time nor the desire to do your homework for
you.
... EVERYONE is weird. Some of us are proud of it.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:21:07
EID:85ba 20668aa0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0278
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MH> MH> The resurrection of Jesus was an EVENT!! It was not a claim,
MH> MH> such as the claims made by Koresh or Jim Jones.
MH>
MH> KDM> It is a *claim* of an event, Mike.
MH>
MH> And well-attested to by what evidence we have available -- mainly
MH>the fact that people who lived very close in time and space to the
MH>event believed it. That is, those most in a position to know it
MH> believed wasn't true it was true.
Then why are there no records saying this?
MH> The claims of Jones and Koresh, in contrast, are not even *claims*
MH>of events. They are claims, period.
Agreed there.
... Life's Great Irony #146: Turtles have a drag coefficient of .03
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Hi
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:23:08
EID:526a 20668ae0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0289
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
J.J. HITT spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JH> KDM> And JJ's sex. And hir orientation, for that matter.
JH>
JH> Or my race, ethnic heritage, date of birth or planet of origin.
JH>
JH> I tend to withhold *ALL* biographical details, not just my gender.
JH>
JH> I find it extremely enlightening to learn that when meeting a total
JH> stranger in this medium the very first thing they are interested in
JH> doing is pulling down my pants.
What do you expect? Humans are curious, by their nature. Besides, you
seem to enjoy dropping little hints.
... "You're a vicious man." "It's in the job description!"
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Quality fundy time
|Date: 06 Mar 96 17:26:09
EID:65ac 20668b40
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f029a
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MH>-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Michael Hardy <=-
MH>
MH> MH> KDM> Quite simply, existence of a human is a mundane claim;
MH> MH> KDM> existence of a god is not.
MH> MH> Fine. However, the gospels AND the letters of Paul insist that
MH> MH> God exists and that Jesus was the physical incarnation of that
MH> MH> God. You haven't explained how that belief developed in such a
MH> MH> short time.
MH> KDM> Ever played "Telephone?" In a society where there was no mass
MH> KDM> communications, things like that would have happened all the
MH> KDM> faster.
MH> Jews were very careful with both oral and written transmission of
MH> information.
When they had to, yes. If they considered what they were saying to be
important, yes. I have no reason to believe they did. There have been
supposed Messiahs throughout history; there is no reason to think they
saw this one as being any different.
Games like Telephone do what they do now because we're
MH> simply not used to having to remember and communicate oral
MH>information. For Jews, it was the primary method of passing along
MH>information, so it was very important that it be done carefully.
Again, when necessary. The same was true later on, before the invention
of the printing press. That doesn't mean that myths never arose.
MH> KDM> If Jesus truly had risen, more people would have noticed.
MH>
MH> Why do you say that? The accounts say that he selectively appeared
MH>to those whom he chose to appear to.
They may not have noticed Jesus himself, but they would have noticed
things like his tomb being open, and, later on, the ability of certain
people to speak in tongues.
... Entropy isn't what it used to be.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 07 Mar 96 02:06:10
EID:ccb6 206710c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f02ab
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
DAVID WORRELL spoke thusly to KENNETH CAVNESS:
DW> ns>> God sent 'angles'? How did he know they
DW> ns>> were the 'right angles' to send?
DW>
DW> FR>> He hasn't a 'ray' of hope of answering that.
DW>
DW> KC> You really have crossed the line. This entire argument is
DW> KC> perpendicular to the original speaker's intent.
DW>
DW>Et tu, Kenn?
Are you saying punning isn't normal?
... "I'm going to Hell for that bit" - Leary
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: jim staal
|Date: 07 Mar 96 02:28:11
EID:84b6 20671380
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f02bc
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MARK STAAL spoke thusly to JUDITH BANDSMA:
MS> MS> ....Unfortunately I had no choice this week, my Father ( and
MS> MS> Jim's) passed away Sunday evening of the final stage in a
MS> MS> weakened body, Pneumonia.
MS>
MS> JB> I didn't see this in the original due to the computer being in
MS> JB> the shop.
MS> JB> I know it is late and I hope you will understand. My condolences
MS> JB> to you and your family. It is never easy to lose someone you
MS> JB> love.
MS> Thank you very much, It is very much appreciated.
MS> Hopefully no one will take this in the wrong way and ridicule
MS> you also for showing any sympathy in this matter.
I doubt it. We may be assholes, but we aren't cruel.
... For the non-discriminating, non-judgemental, psychotic, all around nut.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Url!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 02:48:12
EID:49c9 20681600
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f02cd
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JOANNA AMREN spoke thusly to MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN:
JA>-> I might be interested in how, and why you have changed. I once was
JA>-> a fundy myself.... then I got better.
JA>
JA>"Got better" is a good way to describe it yes. How I changed is
JA>really simple. I started thinking.:) Why I changed isn't quite so
JA>simple, 'cause I don't know why. I guess so many people (I have to
JA>give some of the credit to this sub) kept telling me that what I
JA>believed in was, to put it simply, crazy. I guess I wanted to see
JA>for myself if this was true. Also, I stopped going to church, and
JA>stopped listening to what everyone was telling me, and made my own
JA>conclusions. Now I'm an ex-fundy and I'm glad. I mean, anyone would
JA>be when they see how stupid they acted when they WERE as fundy as I
JA>was. I didn't make any sense whatsoever, and I can see why everyone
JA>ere got a good laugh out of me.:)
What have you changed to, pray tell?
... Official member, DNRC. Individuals beware.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: The 10 commandments
|Date: 08 Mar 96 02:49:13
EID:c561 20681620
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f02de
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to J.J. HITT:
AS> DW> That is the one advantage to living in West Virginia.
AS> DW> People playing rap are shot on sight.
AS>
AS> JH> I would support a Constitutional Amendment to that effect.
AS>
AS> Do you think we could get a petition drawn up and send it to
AS>Washington? I know several hundred people who would sign it...and
AS>I'm sure you do, too.
Can we classify Hootie and the Blowfish as Rap . . . whatevers, too?
(Musicians or artists just doesn't work).
... RAP musicians will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 08 Mar 96 02:56:14
EID:09bb 20681700
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f02ef
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AS> KDM> I saw a message from Michael this packet saying he saw
AS> KDM> something from you, but if that turns out to be a fluke, I'd be
AS> KDM> more then willing to forward messages from you to him, if you
AS> KDM> send them to me.
AS> I appreciate that, but I THINK I'm okay. The fact that the new BBS
AS>got no messages from Holy Smoke for a day troubles me, though. I may
AS>have a BBS where people can read what I write but that has an
AS>irregular feed.
It's been happening here, too. I *think* Planet Connect was having
problems.
AS> KDM> How're your children?
AS>
AS> Fine. The place we moved into was laid out just like the old one, so
AS>there was the minimum of confusion for the autistic kids. We
AS>eventually have ended up replacing most of the furniture for the
AS>bedrooms, even the kids' room, which was untouched, since the smoke
AS>smell permeated it. But I'm not sure the autistic ones really
AS>realized what was going on at the time and
I guess that's an . . . advantage, for lack of a better word.
Brian, who was at the
AS>computer when the fire broke out, was the one who told my wife, who
AS>alerted a neighbor to call 911, etc.
Smart kid. How old is he?
... After they make styrofoam, what do they ship it in?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 08 Mar 96 03:14:15
EID:8dcf 206819c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0300
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
STEVE WALLIS spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
SW>KD> Here we go again. Gonna cast out the demons again, Steve?
SW>If the Lord tells me to I will. Its called authority and command. I
SW>have it, the devil dont. But, not all know such things. OR know ye
SW>not that?
I don't know that. You did a piss-poor job last time.
SW>KD> SW>Its been praised for Helping a good many souls come to
SW>KD>Christ.
SW>KD> So will a 9mm. What's your point?
SW>
SW>Funny. Point is-Focus on the Family is rooted in Christ.
Then I want no part of Christ, if FoF is something he supports.
There's not
SW>a gun powerful enough to destroy it or knock it down.
I know. A pity, that.
There doing
SW>there all to serve Christ the best they can and will recieve their
SW>reward for doin gso. If they wanted to please the world, you wouldnt
SW>be against them.
Depends on how they were pleasing the world.
But as it is, their not serving the world, their
SW>serving Christ. And so am I.
See above.
SW>KD> FOF is a bigoted, homophobic, hateful organization. I've tried
SW>KD> reading
SW>KD> some of their stuff, but I can't. It sickens me.
SW>
SW>If you cant seem to read their stuff-then why jump to conclusions and
SW>rule it out?
Because reading their stuff makes me sick. I'm not going to support
something my stomach disagrees with that violently.
Focus on the Family is a morally based Christian
SW>organization guy.
Where did Jesus tell his followers to go forth and hate the world?
SW>There's no hate in it. Its about love for others.
Denying homosexuals rights is an example of love? Justify this, please.
SW>It doesnt go around trying to spread the message of hate but love.
Coulda fooled me.
SW>Listen to one of their programs on your local Christian radio
SW>station. Where do you hear them talking about hate? They dont.
Want me to post some of their letters?
SW>KD> SW>Who are you to make a railing accusation aganst
SW>KD> SW>them? Do you really think your better?
SW>KD> Yes, I do.
SW>
SW>Then your a joke. Your no better than anyone guy, and you know I just
SW>said the truth. If any man thinks himself to be more than what he is
SW>he decieves himself. On what standard to you judge FOF?
On their own standard. They are neither loving their neighbor as their
self or turning the other cheek.
SW>KD> SW>accusation wont stand. Focus on the Family is here to stay.
SW>KD> Just like AIDS and venereal disease.
SW>
SW>Aids and venereal disease is sickness. Why would you compare Christ's
SW>Church to something that is unclean?
Very aptly, I think. Just as sex can be good, and religion can be good,
they can both also be bad.
SW>KD> Hmmmm . . . maybe we'll get lucky and they'll be raptured.
SW>
SW>Let me ask you this-when the rapture happens-what will you think
SW>then?
I doubt it will, but, on the whole, it will depend on who is raptured.
(Continued next message...)
... FIDO lie #XVII I don't match any "URA Redneck" tagline descriptions.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Hardy
|Date: 08 Mar 96 03:15:17
EID:f74d 206819e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0322
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
J.J. HITT spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JH> MH>>-- and then read J.J.'s "summary" of it.
JH>
JH> KDM> I'd disagree. JJ sort of smashed everything together, but
JH> KDM> it preserves what the source is saying.
JH>
JH>
JH> I'd have made a great compression algorithm.
JJZip does have a ring to it, I'll admit.
... Credit Manager is Hellen Waite. If you want credit, go to Hellen Wait
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Kenny is back into his de
|Date: 08 Mar 96 03:21:18
EID:ed35 20681aa0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0333
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
KENNETH MCABEE spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
KM> KDM> Nice try. Here's the bit you refused to answer.
KM>
KM> KDM> When did English (or a
KM> KDM> recognizable ancestor) become a language?
KM>
KM>Don't care....
Somehow, this doesn't surprise me.
KM> KDM> Now, Chaucer utilized a recognizable ancestor of the English
KM> KDM> language, so we shall say that English became a language in
KM> KDM> 1400, even though it goes much further back. How does that
KM> KDM> sound? 1400? Or do you prefer a different year? If so, back
KM> KDM> it up.
KM>Still don't care...
Nor this.
KM> KDM> How many words do you think modern English contained, then?
KM>
KM>And I still could not care less...
Nor this.
KM>Why? Because the knowledge of when English became a language will not
KM>get me into heaven, nor does it add "fundy" to the dictionary.
It doesn't have to, Ken. OR are you saying that English didn't exist
until an English dictionary was printed?
... "A mime is a terrible thing to waste" - Robin Hood: Men in Tights.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Philosophy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:02:19
EID:b312 20691840
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0344
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MM>KM> Then go somewhere else, such as Philosophy, perhaps.
MM>
MM>I don't have access to that area on the board I'm posting from..
MM>could be interesting.... but I think I'm beginning to feel less lost
MM>here.
That's good. It does take time.
MM>KM> It's fun, and a good thing to do. Zealots are the most dangerous
MM>KM> peopleon Earth.
MM>
MM>Ah Ha, then it's the overly exuberent quality you are trying to curb
MM>rather than people chooseing to have beliefs. That I can live with
MM>and I agree that there is a line where belief hedges close to
MM>insanity and even all the way over into insanity.
Of course. IMO, people need something for them to lean on, whether it
be a god, or a dream, or people, or whatever. As long as their belief
doesn't hurt anyone, I have no problem with it.
MM>KM> Why must there be a purpose?
MM>
MM>Because almost everything has a purpose and I'm a curious type. I
MM>wanted to see what people would say. And because "Why" tends to be
MM>one of my favorite words, but people get a bit tired of long strings
MM>of "Why, Why, Why......" I try to be diverse in asking the reasoning
MM>behind things. Thanks for your reply.
I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
... "I'm too upset to even swear." - Super Dave Osborne
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: The constellation
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:07:20
EID:114b 206918e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0355
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AS> AS> Asmodeus is in ENOUGH trouble. If he wants to claim credit for
AS> AS>such, I think,why should he not be held legally responsible?
AS> AS>Instead of witchburning, why not witchsuing?
AS>
AS> KDM> But it's not his fault! Maybe it's just me, but I got the
AS> KDM> feeling Asmo never grew out of the anal stage.
AS>
AS> I hope you mean anal-retentive, and are not implying...
I must. I'm not sure what *you're* implying.
AS> I suspect I would have to sue Anton LeVay's Church of Satan for
AS>inciting the youth. He's doubtless living with his parents. He just
AS> strikes me as that sort, and is probably too young to sue, anyway.
Yep. People like him tend to be.
... "Sorry, my mind has a few bad sectors."
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:12:21
EID:2735 20691980
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0366
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
TL>TL>Are you able to post something in addition to your prejudice on
TL>TL>this issue?
TL>
TL> KDM> Prejudice? I just don't like *you*.
TL>
TL>Since you don't actually know me you are demonstrating IGNORANT
TL>prejudice.
Nope. I'm just doing what every human has to do: making a judgement
with limited data. All I know about you is the type of messages you
send/forward here.
TL>TL>I posted a quote from an Asoc Press with citation to found my
TL>TL>claim that the tank drivers should be incicted; have their day in
TL>TL>court.
TL> KDM> Nope, sorry. The tank drivers were doing their duty.
TL>
TL>There is NO legal 'duty' under the U.S. Constitution to follow an
TL>order to run a tank thru a residence occupied by men, women and
TL>children.
This may come as a shock to you, but there are laws not found in the
Constitution.
TL>'I was just following orders' didn't work as a defence for
TL>Nazi soldiers at the Nuremburg war crimes trials, and it is no
TL>defence for a U.S. Govt agent.
What rank? If I remember correctly, that defense is a applicable to
people under a certain rank.
TL>TL>Koresh is dead, but these killer govt agents work for us and are
TL>TL>at still large.
TL>
TL> KDM> At large? That's their job.
TL>
TL>There is no Constitutionaly authorized 'job' description that
TL>includes running tanks thru a residence occupied by men, women and
TL>children.
See above.
TL> KDM> To keep paranoid fucks like you from hurting others.
TL>
TL>Some of the kids we were supposed to be 'protecting' died because
TL>govt agents followed unconstitutional orders to run tanks thru their
TL>home.
And they were offered the chance to leave. Or did you forget that?
Koresh wanted to be a martyr; he didn't care about anything, or anyone,
else.
TL>Can you get over your ignorant prejudice and discover your
TL>conscience?
I've done that. Waco should not have happened, I agree. I just don't
think that everyone connected to it should be lined up against a wall
and shot.
... All life is a conjugation of the verb "to eat".
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Waco web site
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:13:22
EID:3151 206919a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0377
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
AS> KDM> Ah, good, another site for my Mixed Nuts page.
AS>
AS> Here's another one:
AS>http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/index.html.
No, you're a special type of nut. You qualify for the "People"
page.
... Moderator, Illuminati Surveillance Targets' Support Conference.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hardy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:53:23
EID:d786 20696ea0
MSGID: 1:157/200 690f0388
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MICHAEL HARDY spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MH> John Prewett had said something along these same lines. I quoted
MH>this, expecting him to offer his hearty agreement and adulation of
MH>the author -- who I then would reveal is a Catholic polemcist.
Ah. OK, thank you. I take the earlier comment back.
... Yes, a maternally crazed gorilla would come in handy now.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Lou Richardson
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: the true nature of christ
|Date: 08 Mar 96 22:53:00
EID:0eff 2068b6a0
MSGID: 1:112/129 007aaff5
RS>After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that most if not all
RS>Christians are self-centered son of a bitches. It would seem to me that
the
^^^
Should be "sons" to be in agreement with "Christians"....
Regards.....Lou R.
yyy
---
SLMR 2.1a Borg Spreadsheet Program - Locutis 1-2-3
* Origin: Ruby's Joint BBS 904.777.6799 (1:112/129)
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|From: Revelation
|To: All
|Sub: Prophecy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:12:07
EID:1988 20699980
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
MSGID: 1:123/610.0 3142279d
Beware the Jew is the child of the Devil, and he belongs to the Synagogue
of Satan -- jn.8:44, rv.2:9,3:9.
... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
--- FMail 0.94
* Origin: The Shadows a place between Darkness & Light (1:123/610)
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 09 Mar 96 05:56:10
EID:4e18 20692f00
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
AS> Some questions unfortunately cannot be answered in one sentence.
tagged.
AS> My own church did a Sunday school class about "cheap grace" and used
AS> Bonhoeffer's book.
I like that idea. I am planning on doing a bible study in our church soon.
but I don't think I am ready for Bonhoeffer. Our last one used Josh
Mcdowell and I spent a LOT of time studying for that one.
AS> Yes. Unfortunately the Italian church wasn't much better. Even the
AS> Vatican, although the Pope BEFORE the wartime one condemned fascist
AS> aggression in no uncertain terms, the one during the war let his
AS> anti-communist paranoia and his patriotic feelings for Italy get in
the
AS> way of what Christ would tell him to do.
studying history and theology is new to me...I have never studied things
for
my own benifit before. It was always for a class at college or church.
I
am just starting to put together answers beyond the emotional reasons for
why I believe. So I am finding it a little overwhelming. I want to have
it
all put together *now*. It just does not work that way.
AS> Yes. Distrust the easy answers. We see it in the political sphere as
well
AS> as the religious.
I agree.
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
* Origin: If you can't Lay em, Slay em! - Freya (1:114/252)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: HATRED
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:8334 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 12:47pm, MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN wrote to MICHAEL HARDY:
MH>> There is nothing admirable about Fred. He's a firm believer in guilt
MH>> by association -- if Hitler hated Jews, and Hitler called himself a
MM> But it also states clearly that this belief can be used as a motivator.
MM> What it motivates can be swayed by the weilder of the belief. This
is
MM> the type of hatemongering disguised as a message of love that I hear
MM> often on the TV Evangelism shows, hear in the discussions on politics
MM> and other places.
I think alot of it relates to Marx's quote, "Religion is the opiate of the
masses". More often than not, it's used as a power tool by the one in charge,
whether it be a politician, the clergy, or your local TV evangelist. Everyone
has an ulterior motive, no matter how much they sugar coat it...
Becke
... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: CLASSROOMS
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:051e 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 12:57pm, MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN wrote to DON MARTIN:
DM>> Huzzah for them, say I. The fact that students talk about stuff
DM>> is the healthiest thing you could say about our schools. Students
MM> I one hundred percent agree! Hopefully they can learn to wonder,
MM> discuss, and question each others ideas and the emotional attachment
MM> they may have to those ideas without snide remarks, and name calling.
That's the problem with public schools today. They don't teach you to think.
I attended high school in the late 80's. What you basically learned was
the
agenda of the teacher, from THEIR viewpoint. There was no room left to
question. The system they had where I went to school in New Jersey didn't
foster free-thinking in the least. Rather than have class discussions and
allow everyone to share their viewpoint, school was limited to memorizing
facts and figures. It wasn't until well after high school that I learned
how
to really think, question and examine everything.
Becke
... @TAGS.LIS - ***** Return to Main TAGS List *****
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:2921 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 04:34pm, DON MARTIN wrote to STEVE WALLIS:
SW>> How
SW>> can you fight an enemy you cant see?
DM> You develop a means of "seeing" it--if it is there. The
DM> development and use of radar (the British ASDIC) against
DM> night bombings by the Luftwaffe is a good example of this.
DM> But the Luftwaffe was there, however unseen, as evidenced by
DM> both their bombs and by the occasional plane coming down in
DM> flames when the RAF got lucky. Got any such evidence for
DM> your unseen "devil"?
Still impossible if said devil doesn't exist. Poor Steve...having imaginary
enemies is a form of schizophrenic paranoia, isn't it?
DM> Do yourself a favor: go find a nice, fresh dog turd,
DM> preferably from a very large dog. Saw off the top of your
DM> skull and scoop out the gooey stuff inside. Replace the
DM> gooey stuff with the dog turd and cap with the top of your
DM> skull. You will be amazed at how much your IQ will increase.
Shit for brains is better than none at all, no?
Becke
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:2d3a 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 05:19pm, MARK BARNETT wrote to DAWN KLEUSER:
MB> Well I'm new here to.
A fact that is painfully obvious.
MB> I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should also
MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
And where is your evidence for these angels? The Bible? And where is your
evidence that the Bible is anything more then another fictional book?
Becke
... You cannot produce a baby in one month by impregnating nine women.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: CHILDREN
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:f846 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 01:58pm, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to BRIAN KOLACY:
JG> He is with you even now as you are reading this message. God is a
JG> "spirit" you cannot see him or touch him physically, but if you want
to
JG> soften your heart, you will feel him. And if you choose to listen, you
JG> will hear him. He IS speaking to you right now. But you don't have to
JG> listen. Your choice.
In the real world, that's referred to as schizophrenia...
Becke
... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: APOSTATE
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:1672 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 01:58pm, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to BRIAN KOLACY:
BK>> Ah, like they did the first time, eh?
JG> He will not be coming the same way the second time. The first time
JG> he as a baby and grew to a man.
JG> The next time he will come in much more dramatic fashion I believe.
Perhaps this time in full drag?
Becke
... Meaningless gods cannot grant what they do not have.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: HELLO!
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:b225 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 09:18pm, KENNETH MCABEE wrote to KAREN DAVIS:
KD>> My opinion is much more logical, having laid out the real possibilities.
KD>> In fact there may be more.
KM> Again, it's still your opinion. Logically, I cannot believe the Bible,
KM> and believe there are other possiblities as well.
Then why not question and explore that logic, rather than accept something
without question that is completely illogical?
Becke
... Only the educated are free -- Epictetus
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:2d9c 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 09:26pm, KENNETH MCABEE wrote to KAREN DAVIS:
KD>>> I've read them many times. All I find is a woman hating group of men
KD>>> who wrote down their mythology.
KM>>> But apparantly you've never understood them.
KD>> No, I'm not capable of understanding mysogyny.
KM> Your gonna have to help me out with the word mysogyny, it's not listed
KM> in the dictionary. (Not being smart, just trying to find out what you
KM> mean)
You should've been able to figure that one out by the context in which it
was
used... Mysogyny is "hating women". Ask Staahl for enlightenment, that's
his
area of expertise...
Becke
KM> --- FMail 0.96â
KM> * Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
KM> B
... Fundy Logic: Lie 1 + Lie 2 + Lie 3 = "God's Truth"
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Kenneth McAbee
|Sub: CHRISTIAN BLOW JOBS,
|Date: 08 Mar 96 09:00:00
EID:1b99 20684800
On 5 Mar 96 10:09pm, KENNETH MCABEE wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
KM>>> Abraham never believe that God would actually make him sacrifice
KM>>> his own son.
MG>> Bible quotes for this please. Where does Abe state that he does not
MG>> believe that god will tkae his son?
KM> Martin,
KM> Genesis 22:5 "And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here
KM> with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and
KM> come again to you." In this verse he said that he and his son would
KM> go, and return. Genesis 22:8 "And Abraham said, My son, God will
KM> provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of
KM> them together." Abraham tells his son that God will provide.
In other words, he LIED to his son. Don't have a Bible nearby to check the
context of this verse, but knowing the story, I have two comments to make.
First, Abraham had every intention of sacrificing his son if God asked him
to. Secondly, I'm not sure if that above verse comes before or after the
part
God asks him to sacrifice him, but either way...If it were before, it doesn't
make any sense in this discussion because the dilemna of sacrificing his
son
wasn't even presented yet. At that point in time, all the thought God was
asking him to do was sacrifice a lamb. If it were after, he was perfectly
capable of committing murder (which is a sin, right?) at the word of God.
And
then proceeded to LIE to his son, knowing that he would have to kill him.
Not
sure which it is, but both scenarios are less than appealing...
Becke
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 147
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SEEN-BY: 226/300 600 630 700 760 860 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801
SEEN-BY: 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121
SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
SEEN-BY: 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 226/700 10 600 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 09 Mar 96 14:39:57
EID:f4cc 206974e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63796956
REPLY: 1:116/19 04CE25E4
On Mar 07 08:03 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
AS> It's really pretty simple. The first of the comic-book
AS> captains was Captain Marvel. Captain Marvel was a product of
AS> Fawcett Comics, whose parent company, Fawcett publishing's,
AS> first big success was something that came out around the
AS> turn of the century called, believe it or not, Captain
AS> Billy's Whiz-Bang. A group of anecdoctes and stories hosted
AS> by a fictional Captain Billy, supposedly a retired
AS> seacaptain.
Captain Billy's Whiz-Bang is famous in another genre'.
It was one of the first widely sucessful publications to
feature "cheesecake" photographs or pin-ups. T'was one of the
very first "men's magazines".
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: 325
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:47:28
EID:8765 20698de0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 637b18b5
On Mar 02 22:36 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
JB> -=> Quoting Boni Hitch to Pam Gray <=-
BH>> Who are ya apologizing to? These messages ain't goin'
BH>> nowhere!...:-)
JB> Maybe the replies aren't getting back to you but we are
JB> seeing EVERY LAST ONE of your little notes back and forth.
They're not even going into the echo, I bet. They're just replying
to each other as they get their personal mail scan when they log
on to their local BBS... a system that hasn't produced a single
intelligent user yet. (This is the very same BBS that brings us
Jim Germy-quit.)
JB> That's my frustration for the day. You will probably never
JB> see this one either...but at least I tried.
She'll see your message, but her buddy won't.
And neither of them will see this message.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily White Trash Alien
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:17:00
EID:7047 2069a220
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 637c9000
The Grey White Trash Theory
By Don Teal
Copyright 1996
Many on this planet believe we are being visited by a race of beings
called the "Greys." One hears words like advanced, benevolent,
superior and compassionate when referring to the Greys. Certain
celebrities in the UFO field seem to think these beings, albeit
having their own agenda, are good, pure and above the pettiness we
humans seem to wallow in.
To this I say, "GIVE ME A BREAK!" Where is there any evidence that
these beings, if they exist, are above us in any way other than maybe
having cooler spaceships. They are obviously intelligent, and
intelligence leads to some sort of societal structure. There is
evidence to prove that--us. And in any society there is an element
generically referred to as "White Trash." Advancements in technology
don't eliminate white trash, you just get more sophisticated white
trash. One can imagine the first Neanderthal who moved into a
spanking new doublewide cave looking down on the Cro-Magnons for
sleeping in the dirt. Therefore, if the Greys are as advanced as
people think it only makes sense that they also have reached the
pinnacle of white trashness. Some may say this isn't evident from
the contact they've had with that small fraction of Grey society
that's physically visiting the Earth. That argument won't hold the
beer it was conceived by. I'll address this later.
First, let's hypothesize Grey society on their home planet Zeta
Reticulli, using the only model of society we know as a
comparison--ours. Now, in society you have the privileged,
about 2% of the population, the middle class, another 18% and
the balance, 80%, is made up of what we'll call white trash. Most
of the middle class and a small percentage of the privileged can
trace their roots back to white trash ancestors. I really don't
think society can exist without white trash. Take away white trash,
and the economic catastrophe resulting from the eventual crash of
bingo parlors, swap meets and tube top sales would cripple society.
Yes, this is a very necessary part of society.
Let's look at the life of Bubba Grey. His advanced society has given
them the "Sport Model" flying saucer and Bubba owns three. Two are
up on blocks, painted primer gray, with red tape where the taillights
should be, and the third won't even be found until he mows his lawn.
Best guess is that it's somewhere near that tall CB antenna over
yonder that's a hazard to other low flying saucers. He hasn't put
any of his saucers in the driveway because his bass boat hasn't left
that spot for the past five years. Walking up to Bubba's front porch
one sees abduction tables and machines in various states of
disrepair. A sign on a post nearby reads, "Bubba's ET Examination
Accessory Supply & Bait Shop." The left side of the porch collapsed
some years back tragically killing five Zeta Dogs. As you approach
the front door you notice the beer caps hammered into the frame.
"Makes it look nice," says Bubba.
Inside, Mrs. Bubba Grey leans over the spit cup on her ironing board,
spits out her chaw, wipes her mouth with the back over hand before
extending it to you to shake. She's still wearing the day-glo orange
vest from work. She looks over at Bubba Junior, who's reading the
"Saucer Trader" with a highlight pen, and asks him to go out to the
golf course and fill his deer tag, "So's we'll have enough for
company." Junior steps over a Zeta Dog who happens to be having a
litter right there on the living room floor. No one seems to
notice but you. She then introduces you to Mama Grey and proudly
proceeds to tell you how Mama don't even take the cigarette from
her mouth before telling the State Trooper to kiss her butt. Mama
Grey peels the crime scene tape off the bathroom door, grabs a
handful of leaves, a copy of the Galactic Enquirer who's title reads,
"I was abducted by Humans," and disappears behind the door. "Don't
let her age fool you," says Mrs. Grey, "that old woman can climb a
tree faster than the cat."
As you leave, you notice the dog-catcher outside calling for backup.
A homeless Grey strolls past, pauses, and then flips a quarter at
Bubba and politely declines the donation of the old stained mattress
by the curb. Bubba Grey shakes your hand telling you to come back
soon. Mrs. Grey hollers from the porch, "Bubba! Come move this
transmission so I can take a bath."
Not pretty, but highly plausible. And the argument that the current
crop of alien visitors is a sample representation of Grey society
doesn't wash. First, these are probably scientists, and scientists
don't really fit in to any "class" of society except their own. And
second, what makes you think these aliens are good scientists?
Remember, this is the Earth and it can't be a plum assignment. We're
one planet of people who can't get along, don't speak any common
languages and treat our world like the city dump. Would you send
your finest scientists here to study us? I would think that would be
like sending Einstein on assignment to study "Bovine Flatulence."
No, I'd be willing to bet the Grey scientists that are here are the
guys who managed to squeak through "Alien Cultures 101" with a "D-".
Their first assignment was probably to study their own sun, going at
night so they'd be able to land. They probably even got halfway there
before figuring it out. So, before you get a big head about being
visited by the high & mighty Greys, think about what's written here.
Comments are welcome and you are more than welcome to try and shoot
holes in my theory.
Better bring a bigger shotgun than I have. (hoch ptoooie)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 09 Mar 96 23:43:02
EID:a6b4 2069bd60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 637e5d19
Sure, it seems easy being a space alien. You've got your x-ray
vision, your late model space ships and media coverage galore.
But, as usual with most glamour jobs, there's a lot of nitty
gritty work the public doesn't get to see. The job can become
routine, and even a bit tedious, as we learned when we
stumbled upon this intriguing page from...
A SPACE ALIENS DATE BOOK
8:15 A.M. Leave asteroid for work.
9:00 A.M. Hover over cornfield on outskirts of small midwestern
town.
9:30 A.M. Land in backyard where housewife is hanging laundry.
Silence barking dog with penetrating gaze.
10:00 A.M. Stun housewife with laser-gun or energy pulsating
finger-tips. Levitate her body just long enough to be
glimpsed by a passing motorist. Materialize the body
inside spaceship.
Remove internal organs; weigh, label and categorize.
Return most, if not all, to the body. Erase all traces
of surgery.
Rematerialize housewife in backyard. Turn back time two
hours. Bid enigmatic goodbye. Leave.
1:00 P.M. Visit once prestigious astronomer who everyone thinks has
gone mad. Deliver pep talk. Leave him fist-sized
fragments of an unidentifiable element.
2:15 P.M. Drop by Whitley Strieber's house, pick up royalty check
from best seller, Communion.
3:00 P.M. Hover over southwestern desert.
3:30 P.M. Offer psychotic drifter a lift.
4:30 P.M. Pose for cover of "Weekly World News" with President
Clinton.
Discuss ozone depletion, space travel, future political
endorsements.
6:30 P.M. Back at the asteroid. Introduce psychotic drifter to
other aliens. Listen to Windham Hill.
9:00 P.M. Dinner. Eat drifter.
10:00 P.M. Wash antennae, brush eyeballs, peel off outer layer of
skin. Beam cryptic message to NASA satelite. Lights out.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: White-lighter Religio
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:58:42
EID:9d14 206a0740
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 637f0e74
REPLY: 1:207/212 40870ac5
On Mar 03 09:02 96, Karen Davis of 1:207/212 wrote:
KD> I believe it is in the Gospel of John where John is laying
KD> with his head on Jesus' chest or stomach [very intimate,
KD> that, in a culture where male intimacy is frowned on] and
KD> referring to himself as "the apostle whom Jesus loved."
You cant tell from the passage that the apostle in question was
John. In fact, in that very same passage, Jesus said something
to one of the apostles and ONLY that apostle heard it.
If it wasn't the guy with his head on Jesus's chest, then that
guy was deaf.
The apostle Jesus spoke to was Judas.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:43:42
EID:bbe3 206a0d60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 637f8064
JB> I saw a good one today while coming home from visiting a
JB> friend. 'Sacred Heart FEDERAL Credit Union'.
It's not that uncommon. Many churches in ethnic neighborhoods will
have credit unions as a part of their "social ministry". The
parishoners either don't trust banks, don't have access to a bank
that speaks their native tounge or are too poor to be approved for
a loan from a whitebread bank.
Banking is regulated by the Federal government. Credit Unions are
a form of banking and will usually indicate that they are legitimate
by including the word "Federal" in their name.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Taking a break
|Date: 10 Mar 96 03:13:08
EID:d92a 206a19a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63804e1a
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89361214
On Mar 03 14:09 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
JP>> I'll routinely pick up my mail, and will save it,
JP>> however, I don't expect to be responding for at least a
JP>> couple of months.
DC> Spring came early for you this year, didn't it, John.
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.
Fairbanks must be on it's way to becoming a real resort area.
Last night it froze down here on the normally sub-tropical
Gulf coast.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 10 Mar 96 03:35:40
EID:d9b1 206a1c60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63807d73
NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was
NS> an actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How
NS> cruel!
Ah... but the name 'Ant Eater' isn't the name that Adam gave them.
He knew them as Theodore and Bernice.
And they didn't eat ants then (there were only two of them anyway:
Tor and Hildegard). They ate NOODLES.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: the Scientology cult
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:18:42
EID:521b 206a2240
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6380d970
JH>> CUTS! CUTS! CUTS! ALWAYS WITH THE FUCKING CUTS!
DR> What address would you like the complete documents shiped
DR> to?
J.J. Hitt
10100 Westpark, Apt 91
Houston, TX 77042
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:23:16
EID:e5bb 206a22e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 6380e7e7
REPLY: 1:123/318.0 313f8801
ED>> example, the grass near a highway always shows that its
ED>> millions years old, when one uses carbon 14 dating. This is
ED>> due to the burning of fossil fuels which contributes to a
ED>> higher ratio of "old" carbon(14) dioxide to carbon-12
ED>> dioxide.
PS> Okay. Just for gags, where's your reference? Not that I'm
PS> doubting you; it sounds perfectly plausible.
It sounds perfectly rediculous.
C-14 isn't "Old" carbon.
If anything, it's "New" and has a limited lifetime.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 07 Mar 96 14:39:14
EID:fafc 206774e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 d437c67c
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 2187a5ed
On (06 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Marilyn Burge...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jim Germiquet <=-
MB> On (02 Mar 96) Jim Germiquet wrote to Sue Armstrong...
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Steve Wallis <=-
JG> Sorry it doesn't work that way. God is limited in his ability to help
MB> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MB> It's obvious you don't believe your god is omnipotent.
JG> Not so. God "chooses" this limitation. He is not "bound" by it.
JG> He has designed the universe to work this way. God has GIVEN man
JG> freedom of choice.
So he, of his own "free will" chooses a way that will cause
untold pain to billions of human beings, not to mention the
pain that way has caused other life forms. Nice guy, your
god. But I don't think much of his choices.
JG> If you love something set it free
JG> If it comes back to you it is yours
JG> If it doesn't it never was.
JG> In order to LOVE god, we have to be free to NOT love god.
JG> Would you like a husband that loved you because he HAD to
JG> or loved you because he CHOSE to?
But that isn't the choice we're talking about. We're talking
about a choice your god made that limited him and made a lie
of the claim that he is omnipotent. Is he omnipotent, or
isn't he? You can't have it both ways.
Maybe it is your picture of god that is flawed, and not your
god himself. When you have to rewrite the dictionary in order
to "make it work," that's a distinct possibility.
... Schroeder is an unholy marriage between Einstein and Palestine.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Staal won't Drink it either, Ken
|Date: 09 Mar 96 08:55:03
EID:2236 206946e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 31419207
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 313e6071
Tuesday March 05 1996 21:04, Kenneth Cavness mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
SM>> For you to tempt it, it would have to exist first.
KM>> He does.
KC> Positivist claim. Give us the evidence, or stop yapping.
Evidence has been provided.
SM>> Otherwise, you CONTINUE to REMAIN a fraud.
KM>> Tell God that.
KC> First, show us that this "God" of yours exists. Then, tell us how to
KC> contact him -- personally, and where others can hear.
You can contact him personally, and if you want others to hear, all you
have to do is pray out loud.
KC> Oh, wait -- let me guess -- god won't talk to you unless you've chosen
KC> him! What a pretty little bit of circle-walking.
Whoever made that claim... BTW we have all been chosen, otherwise Christ
would not have died for all.
KM>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
KM>> anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign,
KM>> he refused, he would not give them the sign that they requested
KM>> directly of him
KC> Name some scriptures supporting this.
Matthew 4:5-7
Matthew 12:38-39
Matthew 16:1-4
KC> In fact, your "God" proved himself to Gideon. Your "Jesus" showed his
KC> nailprints to Thomas.
But not to those that did not believe in him. Jesus showed his nailprints
to Thomas, but Thomas believed in Christ, Thomas was not a non-believer
demanding a sign from him.
KC> If more Christians read the Bible, fewer people would be Christians.
If more people strived to understand the Bible, instead of taking it out
of context, more people would be Christians.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 09 Mar 96 09:13:04
EID:d007 206949a0
MSGID: 1:271/460 3141939f
REPLY: 1:207/212 bd35126e
Thursday March 07 1996 16:39, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> the point is, I don't see any evidence of this whatsoever. Not even
in
KD>> the lives of those who have done so.
KM>> What would you expect of those that have done so?
KD> Obedience to secular law that meshed with their religious law [such
as
KD> murder] would be a start.
Noone will obey all the laws, why? Because being saved does not keep one
from sinning, and disobey laws is sin.
KD>> Oh, so anyone who murders and is Christian is forgiven?
KM>> Is murder a sin?
KD> AFAIK, according to the Bible, yes.
AFAIK? Is there anyplace in the Bible that says we will not sin after we
are saved?
KM>> Being in jail is man's punishment for crimes, not God's. They were
not
KM>> allowed back into Eden, that was the punishment, not earth itself.
KD> And someone jailed is just not being allowed back into their home.
OK, so if someone goes to jail, they are allowed to go anywhere, but back
into their home... I'm sure all those in prison will be glad to hear that.
Guess we better contact the people that make dictionaries so they can change
the meaning of the words jail and prison. While we are at it, we had better
contact those that run the prisons and jails as well, they are holding people
that they should not be holding. All they have to do is, keep the people
away from their home. Of course if they are living in jail, doesn't that
become their home?
KM>> Your gonna have to help me out with the word mysogyny, it's not listed
KM>> in the dictionary. (Not being smart, just trying to find out what you
KM>> mean)
KD> Woman hating. I could have misspelled it, however. I do quite a bit
of
KD> messaging at 6AM.
Who hates women? We (men) could not survive without them.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 09:20:05
EID:e42d 20694a80
MSGID: 1:271/460 3141965f
REPLY: 1:207/212 39345a6e
Thursday March 07 1996 18:42, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Again, it's still your opinion. Logically, I cannot believe the Bible,
KM>> and believe there are other possiblities as well.
KD> You don't accept those possibilities, true. What you have to accept
is
KD> that the simple assertion that the Bible is not true opens up several
KD> LOGICAL possibilities. It's the same reason that Pascal's Wager isn't
KD> valid.
I don't HAVE to accept anything. I believe the Bible, if it turns out that
it is not real, I will never know it. I don't and cannot accept that there
is any God except the God that is in the Bible. If he's not real, there
is no others.
KM>> I don't think we will notice.
KD> Right.
What? Agreeing with Pascal's Wager?
KM>> Your not the only one that has had to make that choice.
KD> True. But I just wanted you to know where I'm coming from. I'm not
KD> afraid of death.
Neither am I.
KM>> To someone that believes in the Koran, it probably does. I would doubt
KM>> that they would want to say, oh well if Allay does not exist, then
God
KM>> does.
KD> Look at it this way - if a Muslim stopped believing, your god is still
KD> a logical option, right?
I have seen Muslim turn from the Koran and start believing in the Bible.
To me, they are believing in a false religion, God is the ONLY option, which
makes him the logical one as well.
KM>> I believe in the Bible, the Bible tells me there is only one God. I
KM>> cannot believe that there are other possibilities, and still believe
KM>> the Bible.
KD> Fine. But consider the THOUGHT EXPERIMENT that the primary assertions
of
KD> the Bible are wrong.
It's not wrong, and I will not entertain the thought.
KD> Look at it this way. If I said I taught 3rd grade at Grand Terrace
KD> Elementary today, and you discovered there was an untruth in my
KD> statement, there are the following possibilities:
KD> 1. That I didn't teach at all
KD> 2. I taught some other grade [any of the other 6] at Grand Terrace
KD> Elementary.
KD> 3. That I taught that same grade at one of the other elementary schools.
KD> 4. That I taught some other grade at another elementary school.
Only one possibility, you lied to me.
KD> So using LOGIC, then if the Bible is wrong:
KD> 1. There is no supreme being whatsoever.
KD> OR
KD> 2. The supreme being[s] is/are not the God described in the Bible,
KD> a. One or all of the gods described in other religions
KD> b. as yet undescribed by man in any religion
KD> OR
KD> 3. The Bible is correct up to certain points - perhaps only the Old
KD> Testament. Perhaps through the New Testament but excluding the words
of
KD> Paul. In other words, the possibility that the Bible partially and
KD> imperfectly describes God.
Those may be your options, not mine. I don't see any options other than
the God that is described in the Bible, if he does not exist, I do not believe
there is a god at all.
KD> What you're doing is saying you trust me so much that you believe I
KD> taught 3rd grade at Grand Terrace just because I say so.
No, I didn't say that. Trust in a human is different than trust in God.
KD> That's fine,
KD> though gullible because there *is* an intentional untruth in that
KD> statement.
Remember the only option I listed for your untruth? If I found out you were
lying then you are a lair, that's the only option I would worry about.
KD> but if you're engaging in a thought experiment,
You can engage yourself in your thought experiment, I will not participate.
My options are clear, if God as described in the Bible does not exist, then
there is no kind of God at all.
KD> you have to
KD> open up to all the other logical options.
With all that I have seen and experienced, there is no logical option other
than the God that is in the Bible. Logically from my stand point, if he
does not exist, then there is no god.
KD> I think that's where many
KD> believers lose sight of the religious skeptics.
Believers are not skeptical of the Bible, maybe that's what the non-believers
forget.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: STAAL WON'T DRINK IT
|Date: 09 Mar 96 09:53:06
EID:1449 20694ea0
MSGID: 1:271/460 31419bb9
Thursday March 07 1996 03:00, Becke Jones mumbled to Kenneth McAbee:
SM>>> For you to tempt it, it would have to exist first.
KM>> He does.
BJ> I've been gone almost a year, and I'm willing to wager you still haven't
BJ> produced one shred of evidence to show this...
Welcome back Becke.
Evidence
The data on which a conclusion or judgement is based
Something that indicates
The documentary or verbal statements and material objects admissible as
testimony in a court of law
To indicate clearly
To support by testimony
Present and plainly visible
The Bible is the evidence.
SM>>> Not to mention that you're still short one "God" to start out with.
SM>>> Care to address this small problem by honest means, Ken??
KM>> Have been.
BJ> Yeppers. Still beating your son, Ken?
Never claimed that I did beat my son.
SM>>> Otherwise, you CONTINUE to REMAIN a fraud.
KM>> Tell God that.
BJ> Produce him, and we will.
Stick around you'll see him eventually.
KM>> Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however
KM>> anytime one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign,
KM>> he refused, he would not give them the sign that they requested
KM>> directly of him. We know Christ by the things that he did, the signs
BJ> Perhaps because he was blowing smoke?
Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however anytime
one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign, he refused,
he would not give them the sign that they requested directly of him. We
know
Christ by the things that he did, the signs were those miracles that he
performed for the faithful, not for the unfaithful. Since a Christian is
someone who is suppose to be following in the footsteps of Christ, we are
suppose to do those things that he told us to do, and to follow his examples
of what to do and when to do it. His example of what to do when the
unfaithful ask for a sign such as drinking poison is very clear. He would
not give it, therefore, following his example, we will not give it. How
can
you tell a Christian then? By the things that they do, not the things that
you demand of them to do. Matthew 4:7 "Jesus said unto him, it is written
again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." That's pretty clear, we are
not
to tempt the Lord, to mix a drink of poison just to drink it, to prove that
we
have faith, would be tempting God. It would be us, the Christian, saying
to
God, go ahead protect us like you said you would, that would be us seeking
a
sign from God, just as you do. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I
will
not drink you mixture, but not because of what you claim, that I do not
have
faith, but because I do have faith, and I do believe in the Word of God,
not
just one or two verses, but all of the Word of God. And that includes the
part
that says "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (In case
you
can't remember thats in Luke 16:31) So according to the Bible, since you
refuse
to have faith to start with, you would not believe even if I drank it, died,
and came back to life! No, I will not drink for you, you will not tempt
me
enough to make me tempt my God. Your disclaiming my faith, will not make
me
unfaithful, it does not change the fact that if when I die, I will spend
eternity with Lord forever, and when those that do not have faith in him
before they die, die, that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire,
where the beast and false prophet will be.......
KM>> to prove that we have faith, would be tempting God. It would be us,
KM>> the Christian, saying to God, go ahead protect us like you said you
KM>> would, that would be us seeking a sign from God, just as you do. Well,
KM>> I'm
BJ> It is wrong to question an irrational belief?
What's so ittational about it? Or is it lack of understanding on your part?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Mike Stevens
|Sub: Do you Masturbate?
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:16:14
EID:a7d3 2069b200
Whilst masticating on , Mike Stevens (1:141/920)
wrote to All:
MS> Jesus christ The Son Of The living God to all your sins and evil
MS> compulsions on His body at the cross.
Why do you think Jesus' hands were nailed to the cross? So he wouldn't
play with himself while he was hanging around!
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Michael Tickel
|Sub: ZEUS COMING!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 21:36:52
EID:f02a 2069ac80
MT> god because when Yahweh God asks you "Why should I let you into
MT> my Heaven?", if you tell him because you served Zeus you will be
MT> cast into Hell for eternity.
When will you people get it through your heads that not everybody believes
in or cares about your mythologies? I'm not worried about heaven or hell
or gods - entities made up by men who didn't understand their world, and
couldn't accept that death meant death, period. If your beliefs help you,
great - just quit prosletyzing to those who believe differently.
MT> Remember: Yahweh God and I both love you.
At least the latter definitely exists. *adh*
--- MsgedSQB/2 3.30.02
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Re: Salvation
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:22:21
EID:fb51 20698ac0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Brad Jackson <=-
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson to All <=-
BJ> Greetings!
BJ> What did the bible say, when it came to salvation?
SA> I do not care (except as a point of argument) what the bible
SA> says, as I do not base my life on that book of mythology and allegory.
SA> BTW, get a real life and don't bother with the canned posts like this
SA> appeared to be.
Hello Sue.
I would like to point out that none of my post come from a can!
I get a lot of my information from the King James Bible. This bible
was impired by God!
Job 32:8 But a spirit in man: and the [inspiration] of
the Almighty giveth them understanding.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture given by [inspiration] of God, and
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:
I did not suggest you base your life on just any old book. I do
however suggest you base you life on the word of God!
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not
live by [bread alone], but by every word that proceedeth out of the
mouth of God.
You see Sue I do believe you care, and I think you care a great
deal. But something has changed the way you are thinking now.
Don't let it distroy you Sue! Satan is very powerful and comes in
many forms.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us
therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the
armour [of light].
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan
himself is transformed into an angel [of light].
I hope this didn't seem so canned, to you Sue!
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Mistakes
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:22:21
EID:6236 20698ac0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> You seem to think God has mad mistakes, when know in your heart
BJ> he hasn't!
DC> The Flood was one of his maddest moments. Then, he showed such
DC> grace by killing all of the Midianites, except for the virgins.
DC> Thanks for pointing out your god's mental illness...
Hello Dan
You are good at picking out little mistakes I may make in my
messages to you and others. But the truth is you have nothing else
to say! You know God is right in what he does!
You know the more you bash me the better I feel. I am glad I am
worthy of God's trust.
2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou [in all things], endure afflictions, do
the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
They did the same sort of thing to Jesus and his apostles, just nitt
picking because they like you have nothing to say. Look to God for
understanding, because he is a merciful God.
2 Chronicles 30:9 For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren
and your children compassion before them that lead them
captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD
[your God ] gracious and merciful, and will not turn away
face from you, if ye return unto him.
Dust off the bible sitting on the upper shelf, and begin to learn
all the wonderful things God could have in store for you Dan
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Bible
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:22:22
EID:8ea4 20698ac0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> Greetings!
BJ> The bible is inspired by God!
PS> Greetings!
PS> Many of Douglas Coupland's novels may have been inspired by sleep
PS> deprivation.
PS> This is patently absurd. One might as well say that because certain
PS> tales that are obviously fiction purport to be utterly true, then they
PS> are. When looking for evidence corroborating the veracity of a given
PS> document, one doesn't turn to the document itself to explain unless
one
PS> is extremely stupid. One looks for corroborating external evidence.
PS> I take it that you are using the pronoun "we" to refer to "People such
PS> as myself who are using a rotten cabbage or perhaps half a squash as
PS> a brain."
Hello Preston.
Ok first off I don't know where you stand on the issue of Jesus?
You are talking like you are upset that the bible is true. You have
nothing to prove that the bible is false. There are all kinds of
books written that prove the bible to be true. (Check your local
library) There is all kinds of evidence what happened in the
bible is true. Even some religions that don't believe Jesus was
God, do believe he lived!
I quote from the bible because I know that it is true and I
don't need any other books to tell me it is! But if you need more
convincing by all means, look the books up at the Library.
You reffer to me as stupid yet you know not of these books or
God! I will not call you names Preston, and sink down to your
level. But I hope some day that Jesus can lift you out of the pitt
you are in, before it is to late.
Preston I would suggest to you go and wash your face and get the
filth out of your eyes, that is clouding them from seeing the true.
Then go bye yourself a King James Bible and begin to read.
One last point, the bible was different writtings compiled
together to make the bible, so it was easier for us to read. You
could look at it as each title in the bible as a separted book to
itself. So they do corrispond to one and other.
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:22:23
EID:4ac2 20698ac0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Brad Jackson <=-
BJ> God is a spirit. The creator of all things, and the father of
BJ> all humanity by creation.
PS> I'd ask for non-Biblical evidence, but I know you couldn't give it to
PS> me.
I answered that in my last message to you.
BJ> He is the first and the last, and besides him there is no God.
PS> Then why do the commandments mention other gods?
Hello Preston
Well this is a very good point. The best way to say it I figure
so you could understand it is: People even look at satan as a god.
So God was trying to show us not to bow to any Gods other then him.
You see some people aren't very bright! They would bow down to
idols like money, sex, drugs, governments, crosses, status of
mothers or kings, saints and the sun and moon. Can you see what I
am saying? You know there are even churches out there today telling
people they preach the truth about God, yet they will ask you to
kneel to a statu, of a woman holding a baby or some guy hung on a
cross?
So you see God new some people would be disceived by these false
idols. He had to tell us not to do that and he did so many times
throught the bible.
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re:Ot verse Nt
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:22:23
EID:b71d 20698ac0
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
Hello Preston.
I didn't quote your last message to save space. You said that I
do not know all of the bible, that is true I never claimed to. But
I do know that the God of the old testament is the same as the new
testament. Why you ask! Because God told us this is the truth. I
will quote you some scripture so that I may prove my point.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and
the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be
called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting
Father, The Prince of Peace.
God through Isa. fortold what he was going to do. In the new
testament he also told us who he was.
John 10:30 I and [Father are one].
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto
him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known
me, Philip? he that hath [seen me] hath seen the Father; and how
sayest thou , Show us the Father?
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,
saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the
Almighty.
Preston you also said you had looked for God maybe you had false
teaches that didn't show you the truth. I will go into that maybe
next time.
I don't want to overwhelm you just starting out.
Until next time!
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Tom Hart
|To: Robert Berndt
|Sub: Founding Father Beliefs
|Date: 07 Mar 96 11:08:18
EID:c55b 20675900
Regarding : Founding Father Beliefs
Reply Requested? Yes, Please Reply...
The Rev. Bird Wilson, D.D., author of the "Memoir of Bishop
White," says:
"Though the General attended the churches in which Dr.
White officiated, whenever he was in Philadelphia during the
Revolutionary war, and afterwards while President of the
United States, he never was a communicant in them" (Memoir of
Bishop White, p. 188).
"Gen. Washington never received the communion in the
churches of which I am the parochial minister." -- Bishop
White.
"On sacramental Sundays, Gen. Washington, immediately
after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the
greater part of the Congregation." -- Rev. Dr. Abercromble.
"After that, [Dr. Abercrombie's reproof,] upon communion
days, he absented himself altogether from the church." -- Rev.
Dr. Wilson.
"The General was accustomed, on communion Sundays, to
leave the church with her [Nelly Custis], sending the
carriage back for Mrs. Washington. " -- Rev. Dr. Beverly
Tucker.
"He never was a communicant in them [Dr. White's
churches]." -- Rev. Dr. Bird Wilson.
"I find no one who ever communed with him." -- Rev.
William Jackson.
"The President was not a communicant." -- Rev. E.D.
Neill.
"This [his ceasing to commune] may be admitted and
regretted." -- Rev. Jared Sparks.
"There is no reliable evidence that he ever took
communion." -- Gen. A.W. Greely.
"There is nothing to show that he was ever a member of
the church." -- St. Louis Globe.
"I have never been a communicant." -- Washington,
quoted by Dr. Abercrombie.
In a letter to Rev. B.C.C. Parker of Massachusetts, dated
Nov. 28, 1832, in answer to some inquiries respecting
Washington's religion, Bishop White says:
"His behavior [in church] was always serious and attentive,
but as your letter seems to intend an inquiry on the point of
kneeling during the service, I owe it to the truth to declare
that I never saw him in the said attitude. ... Although I was
often in company with this great man, and had the honor of dining
often at his table, I never heard anything from him which could
manifest his opinions on the subject of religion. ... Within a
few days of his leaving the presidential chair, our vestry waited
on him with an address prepared and delivered by me. In his
answer he was pleased to express himself gratified by what he had
heard from our pulpit; but there was nothing that committed him
relatively to religious theory" ("Memoir of Bishop White," pp.
189-191; Sparks' "Life of Washington," Vol. ii., p. 359).
"When the war was over and the victory over our enemies
won, and the blessings and happiness of liberty and peace
were secured, the Constitution was framed and God was
neglected. He was not merely forgotten. He was absolutely
voted out of the Constitution. The proceedings, as published
by Thompson, the secretary, and the history of the day, show
that the question was gravely debated whether God should be
in the Constitution or not, and, after a solemn debate he
was deliberately voted out of it. ... There is not only in
the theory of our government no recognition of God's laws
and sovereignty, but its practical operation, its
administration, has been conformable to its theory. Those
who have been called to administer the government have not
been men making any public profession of Christianity. ...
Washington was a man of valor and wisdom. He was esteemed by
the whole world as a great and good man; but he was not a
professing Christian."
Dr. Wilson's sermon was published in the Albany Daily
Advertiser in 1831
ÚÄ[ Posted By:Spock of Vulcan ]ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄ Ä Ä ÄÄÄÄ ÄÄ Ä ÄÄúú
ŔÄ[140@1405100-VirtualNET]úú@40501ConfusedNet"
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:02:21
EID:a8dc 2069a040
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 518efa4f
REPLY: 1:116/19 031421CC
On (08 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> I will agree with you that myth probably predates formal
AS> religion. But the hunger for that myth...the myth of a dying
AS> and then reborn god, which occurs in so many cultures...is it
AS> JUST a metaphor for the changing of the seasons? And if so,
AS> why does it occur in cultures along the equator, where the
AS> seasons are basically rainy and dry? It seems even deeper,
AS> almost an instinct with us. And I think it at least worth
AS> considering that it might be an instinct for something we
AS> NEED.
You're missing the obvious. We all experience death, regardless
of the clime in which we live. I would imagine equatorial peoples
experienced even more death than we do, since the equator/jungle
is a very harsh environment in which to live.
... I would be a pretty good procrastinator, if I ever got around to it.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD [1]
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:08:43
EID:c0fd 2069a100
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 2c3c2bbb
REPLY: 1:116/19 03144314
On (08 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> MB> Only in your dreams. You mean after all this time you didn't
AS> MB> know that I'm a pacifist? I don't believe the State has the
AS> MB> "right" to kill for ANY reason, nor do I believe individuals do.
AS> I knew there were some things you leaned that way about, but
AS> no, I wasn't aware that you were a pacifist in all things.
AS> So...not criticizing, just making sure of my ground...are you
AS> saying that a policeman, for instance, may not use deadly
AS> force to stop a sniper from killing others? Or to stop a
AS> rapist? Or that no war is ever justified, even against, say,
AS> Hitler and his death camps? (And again, I am struck by the
AS> irony that I, as a theist and a believer in a savior who
AS> urged us to "turn the other cheek" and "he who is without sin
AS> cast the first stone" feels there ARE times for justified
AS> violence, and you, as a nontheist, might not. And that Jesus
AS> might approve of your stance before mine---"he who lives by
AS> the sword shall die by it")
This is one of the utter hypocracies I see in the Judeo-Christian
ethic that tell me they are way, way off base.
AS> MB> Or, in this case, his lack of a sense of fairness. Not me, Al,
AS> MB> not me. This is one of the ways that I am certain your god
AS> doesn't MB> exist. His utter hypocrisy tells me of his nonexistence.
AS> And yet...I daresay you would not let a chimpanzee drive a
AS> car. Or a two year old. Because they have not the judgement
AS> to use something so dangerous.
This is one of the things I find most distasteful about the Christian
point of view. You people so readily equate adult human beings with
flies on the wall, amoeba, virii, chimps, and the like, yet rail
against the notion that we are RISEN primates. Another very fundamental
inconsistency in the who paradigm. And, one I find VERY insulting.
I am much more than an amoeba, and if your god can't see that, he
needs radial kerototomy very badly.
AS> Why is THAT different than God reserving some things for
AS> Himself? Obviously there must be some real qualitative
AS> diferences between a infinite, omniscient, omnipotent being
AS> and ourselves.
We aren't talking about physical and mental capabilities, here,
we're talking about ethical principles that are either right or,
in this case, reprehensible.
AS> MB> I do not pay homage to ANY form of authoritarian
AS> MB> inconsistency, no. I do not respect bosses who tell me I
AS> MB> can't make personal phone calls at work, and then when I
AS> MB> walk into their work area I
AS> find MB> them talking to a bowling buddy; I do not respect
AS> find MB> any authority
AS> MB> figure who tells me I can't exact vengeance, and then
AS> MB> publickly declares "vengeance is mine." I think your (and
AS> MB> the Bible's) concept stinks like three-day-old fish.
AS> But of course, a boss is a human being like yourself. Are you
AS> a strict vegetarian? If not, then are not you following an
AS> inconsistency, allowing the murder of animals or fish that
AS> you would not allow for human beings?
I don't insist fish adhere to human ethics, but your god insists I
adhere to HIS ethics, even when he doesn't. In the case of fish, I
sort of live and let live; your god is not nearly so kind, nor is
he half as consistent. He believes in live and let live, until
such time as a person does so, then he believes in making sure
they die because they didn't get it right.
Your analogy is a mess, and hardly parallel.
... If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD [2]
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:15:25
EID:c0fd 2069a1e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 a07b6d3b
REPLY: 1:116/19 03144314
On (08 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Marilyn Burge...
AS> first hand, only to be totally put upon by a
AS> middle-management petty tyrant who tries to have him (who he
AS> thinks is a mail room employee) fired, disgraced, framed,
AS> etc.? Who experiences all the inconveniences his employees do
AS> first hand, as one of them? For that is a business parable
AS> for what Jesus did.
I really don't know what that has to do with "do as I say and
not as I do." Do you? Aren't you just a little off the
beaten path?
AS> MB> Double standards are the epitome of hypocracy. I don't respect
AS> MB> hypocrites, and I certainly don't bow down and worship them!
AS> It is only hypocrisy if you equate yourself with God, and feel there
AS> is no difference between you and He;
Utter nonsense! I don't make ethical boundaries for my children that
I was unwilling to adhere to myself; your god did. Again and again.
He was a petty tyrant who didn't know right from wrong for thousands
of years, yet condemned people to eternal torment for doing much
less harm than he did. He's an asshole, and hardly anybody to be
respected by anyone.
As for my pacifism, I don't insist that mesquitoes adhere to my
standards. I know they are mesquitoes and have their own way of
life. And, I certainly don't lay down standards for them then
in the next breath flaunt those standards in their face whilst
punishing them for eternity for not adhering.
I would think even you could see that qualitative difference.
... My three-finger response for tough questions: Ctrl-Alt-Del
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: they're at it again
|Date: 08 Mar 96 13:35:00
EID:bce0 20686c60
MSGID: 1:128/203.666@fidonet.org 220d4532
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 635062d1
PID: FM 2.02
> JB> I take full and personal responsibility for not PUBLICLY
> JB> dismissing you as moderator of I_UFO last year, and this
> JB> your latest and worst transgression is partly my fault.
> I_UFO is probably the only echo in FidoNet where a particular
> user can dismiss the "moderator".
In the e-listings, there are TWO holders of status in any Echo: the Moderator
and the OWNER.
The Moderator runs the Echo day-to-day. The Owner is the one who created
it, and owns it.
USUALLY -- but NOT always -- the one title is passed with the other, and
hence the Moderator is obeyed end of discussion.
Glenda Stocks, on the other hand, does NOT have this degree of decency.
Retaining the Owner rights while burdening someone else with Moderatorial
responsibilities -- and then blaming him when things go wrong -- is the
acme of tyranny and irresponsibility.
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Ray Talley
|Sub: books
|Date: 08 Mar 96 23:48:00
EID:b900 2068be00
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B438F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Ray Talley to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I wish I could talk you into reading just one book by a good,
MH> conservative Bible scholar debunking the liberal case. You would be
MH> very surprised.
RT> Pick your best and if I can find it I will read it and get back to
RT> you.
Gee Ray, I've only named three of them about two dozen times. But once
more:
Try first for "The Real Jesus" by Luke Johnson. It's published by a
mainstream publisher, Harper Collins, and it's new, so the chances are
good it's in your public library.
Also look for "Jesus Under Fire," edited by Michael Wilkins and J.P.
Moreland, and "Cynic Sage or Son of God?" by Gregory Boyd.
... The invitation said black tie only. Why are all of you in suits?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Istambul paraphrased
|Date: 08 Mar 96 23:51:00
EID:d65a 2068be60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4390
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> interested in discovering and believing the truth, even if it makes
MM> First, you have to define truth.
MM> Have you ever read the Blindmen of Istambul?
MH> No, I haven't. What is it?
MM> Well, with apologies to the source, I'll have to paraphrase, Try
MM> looking it up in a set of encyclopedias. I don't have the original
MM> available here at home. However I will post it for you when I locate
MM> it.
MM> To paraphrase, There was once a village in Istambul where they kept
a
MM> mighty elephant. His strength and courage was told all over the land.
MM> People began to flock to the town to experience elephant. They created
MM> a paddock for him, and allowed visitors to enter only one at a time.
Oh yeah, I know the story. I didn't realize that's what you were talk
ing about.
MM> Each blind man began to excitedly describe his perspective of Great
MM> Elephant, and then they began to shout, and then to fight as they
MM> argued over who's view was more correct.
MM> Man, with limited perceptions approach the unknown and try to explain
MM> it in ways that reflect their own experiences. This is the state of
MM> religions today. Most religious people will admit that knowing the
MM> nature of diety is not possible, so they spend their time arguing about
MM> who was right in their view.
This is true within limits, but those limits are there. Like the
Elephant, God does seem different to different people. But that doesn't
mean that any idea of God is equal to any other. No part of the
elephant felt velvet smooth, for example.
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the
Father but by me." This is either true or it isn't. If it is, then any
idea of God which denies that truth is wrong. If it isn't true, then
those of us who believe it are wrong.
... Behaviorial Research: Pulling habits out of rats.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Hatred
|Date: 08 Mar 96 23:55:00
EID:3299 2068bee0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4391
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Masochistic Maiden to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> There is nothing admirable about Fred. He's a firm believer in guilt
MH> by association -- if Hitler hated Jews, and Hitler called himself a
MM> But it also states clearly that this belief can be used as a
MM> motivator. What it motivates can be swayed by the weilder of the
MM> belief. This is the type of hatemongering disguised as a message of
MM> love that I hear often on the TV Evangelism shows, hear in the
MM> discussions on politics and other places.
MH> He's not the only one, of course. Other anti-Christers think the same
MH> way. Three anti-abortion activists have killed people. Never mind
MH> that millions of pro-lifers are as appalled at that as anyone else,
MH> people who think like Fred believe that three nuts is proof that
MH> pro-lifers are violent.
MM> If this was a bait for a discussion on abortion and it's morality.
MM> Sorry I already did that one for this echo. I'm a strange mix of
MM> pro-life, pro-choice. If it's me, pro-choice, if its my neighbor
MM> pro-choice. My decision and stand.
It wasn't bait of any sort. It meant what it seemed to mean: That Fred
deals in over-generalizations and stereotypes, so that he characterizes
millions of people based on the actions of a tiny fringe element.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 08 Mar 96 23:57:00
EID:6f65 2068bf20
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4392
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> The ending of Mark which we now have, from 16:9 onward, does not
MH> appear in any manuscripts until the Middle Ages. It was not part
MH> of the gospel as originally written, and is therefore not
MH> Scripture.
MG> Why do you claim this?
Because it is true. All Bible scholars I have studied state that the
oldest and most reliable manuscripts of Mark do not include these
verses.
MG> Where did it come from?
No one knows. It was added sometime between AD 300 or so and the Middle
Ages.
MG> If the wource were
MG> legit, why would you not consider it scripture?
There's no way the source could be legit. At a minimum, it was someone
living centuries after the original book was written, who could have
had no firsthand, or even second-hand, knowledge of Jesus.
... "A person is a person, no matter how small." -- Dr. Seuss
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 08 Mar 96 23:59:00
EID:3924 2068bf60
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4393
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> No one is "innocent." All have sinned.
KC> Then what's your problem with abortion?
KC> I just love it. Your concepts all seem to be two-edged swords. And you
KC> seem to be holding the blade.
Huh? Make some sense and then I'll answer you. How are the two
positions noted above inconsistent?
MH> Because God wants us to choose right for ourselves. In Egypt's case,
MH> he tried to nudge Pharoah in that direction.
KC> I see. So, forcing a land into famine (the plague of locusts), killing
KC> off all the firstborn, and causing an incredible number of people to
KC> die of thirst (pollution of the water supply by turning it into blood)
KC> was just a "nudge".
No. Sending Moses and Aaron to plead for the release of the Israelites
was a nudge. Since the idea wasn't occurring to Pharoah of his own
volition, they came to suggest it.
When he didn't pick up on the suggestion, God did some neat stuff like
turning a staff into a snake and so forth. That should have told
Pharoah that these were no ordinary Semitic tribesmen he was dealing
with.
When that didn't do it, God sent some fairly mild negative stuff as a
warning. That should have told Pharoah there was trouble down the road
if he kept the big Y's people in chains.
By the time God started unleashing real punishment, Pharoah had
been offered, and refused, several chances to do the right thing.
Which I said in the post you quoted, and shouldn't have had to say
again.
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: stereotype (Sony)
|Date: 09 Mar 96 00:05:00
EID:02a5 206900a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4394
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> No Ken, I did NOT say that "atheists" as a group have no standards.
I
MH> was talking ONLY about the five specific people who had weighed in
MH> with opinions to that effect.
KC> Let me ask you then, directly: do you feel that atheists have no
KC> standards, because they do not accept an absolute morality? Answer yes
KC> or no, please. After that, of course, you're free to elaborate.
No.
... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: Posting
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:10:00
EID:9f5f 20695140
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4395
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Lee Woofenden to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I manage to get to it almost daily, but I find myself less inclined
MH> to spend four or five hours on it. The same arguments go round and
MH> round endlessly, and minds rarely change. Lately I've just been
MH> reading my personal mail and then scanning through the rest just to
MH> see if anything else catches my eye.
LW> I had a snow day today, so I decided to do some posting and answered
a
LW> few back messages on HolySmoke. The old arguments do get boring after
a
LW> while--especially when so few people are even listening before they
LW> reply.
Yeah. There's a few new names in the echo here lately, but no sign that
they're going to be any more open than the old names. At least not yet.
... I've made up my mind. Now to find some facts ...
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: one more time
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:25:00
EID:cc9e 2069a320
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4396
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> In this case, I don't agree with FoF's position, but I don't see
MH> evidence of hate. I guess you will never understand, because you
MH> don't agree that homosexuality is morally wrong. I see a group of
JB> How can I see homosexuality as morally wrong when I don't believe it
JB> is a CHOICE? I believe it is as much a part of the person as their eye
JB> or hair or skin color...something they didn't choose.
Pedophiles and alcoholics can say much the same thing, but that doesn't
mean we condone their behavior. It's also beside the point, as far as
FoF is concerned -- the question isn't whether they're right or wrong,
it's whether they hate people as opposed to disapproving behavior.
MH> well-intentioned Christians trying to balance hatred for sin with
MH> love for the sinner, and making some mistakes in their approach. But
I
MH> do not see hate for people, wheras I do see that hate in racism.
JB> Oh, so the baseball bats, etc are for the SIN? Strange that they seem
JB> to miss their mark and hit the 'sinner' instead.
Now THAT is hate speech, Judith, what you just said. So far as I know,
Focus on the Family doesn't use baseball bats, etc. They work toward
their goals peacefully, through free speech and legislation -- which is
how civil people pursue goals, even if those goals are misguided. For
you to lump them in with those who resort to violence is your own hate.
JB> And, as I said before, those who go out on Saturday nights with
JB> baseball bats looking to 'have some fun with some fags' are NOT aiming
JB> at what they see as a sin. They are looking to HURT someone...someONE,
JB> Mike, a flesh and blood person. Simply because they dislike their
JB> lifestyle?
Sure, and that's dead wrong. But that's not what FoF does.
JB> And people like Dobson, Phelps and that ilk only fan the
JB> flames and teach them that it is ok...that there is biblical
JB> justification for bashing these PEOPLE.
I don't know who Phelps is. As for Dobson, no, he does not. Unless
you're prepared to blame other groups for the actions of their own
violent fringes, you can't blame a peaceful anti-gay group for the
actions of a violent fringe.
JB> PEOPLE, Mike, not amorphous,
JB> intangible SINS. If you can't see that as hate then I wonder if you
JB> know what any emotion feels like.
I DO see that as hate, Judith. But I don't see FoF doing that, or even
encouraging others to do that.
JB> ... I know you're not as stupid as you seem. No one could be!
Even you can't hold a discussion without resorting to
name-calling. Somehow I had thought you were above that sort of thing.
Silly me.
... Very funny Scotty. Now beam up my clothes.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: freedom
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:20:00
EID:3b0d 20695280
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4397
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> In order to LOVE god, we have to be free to NOT love god.
RH> You call that freedom? I call that extortion.
Freedom equals extortion? That makes sense. Not.
... He who thinks by inch, yet talks by yard, should be kicked by foot.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: cuts
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:21:00
EID:48e7 206952a0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4398
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Worrell <=-
JG> God is limited
DW> Really? You do realize you are directly contravening 2000 years of
DW> Christian thought here, don't you? What makes your opinion more valid
DW> than that of all those who have gone before you?
JG> Do you always snatch three words out of a three HUNDRED word message
JG> and make them completely meaningless by themselves.
It's called HectorQuote, named for its pioneer, Hector Plasmic.
When you can't dispute what someone says, quote just enough to distort
the meaning into something you *can* dispute.
JG> Let me try that with YOUR message up there
DW> your opinion more valid.
JG> Well thank you very much David !
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited. By allowing us to have free will, God is
JG> saying I cannot stop you from choosing to march into hell. I can
JG> give you advice. I can throw you a rope , I can beg you to
JG> come back. But I can't stop you. YOUR CHOICE,,please make the right
JG> one.
Right. He *could* force us to always do right, but at the expense of
our free moral will -- the very thing that makes us human.
So instead he goes to great lengths to make salvation possible, freely
available to anyone who wants it.
And brainiacs like David complain about it.
... ....Unable to open Trouser.zip (a)bort (r)etry (p)ee
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Rena Mcgee
|Sub: hell and dalmatians
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:47:00
EID:38ee 206955e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B4399
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Rena Mcgee to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> God does NOT send "anyone" to hell. Hell is a natural outcome of
JG> making the wrong choices in life. God is much like a mother who tells
JG> her child. Do not play on the 401 highway. The child ignores his
JG> mothers commandment and goes and plays on the highway. A big truck runs
JG> the child over. The mother did not upon realizing her son had disobeyed
JG> her call a truck driver and tell him to run over her child as
JG> punishment. It was a natural result that his mother had warned him
JG> about and he ignored.
RM> A mother who doesn't keep an eye on her child at all times
RM> is guilty of neglect.
JG> And to what age ? Will you still be holding your childs hand on the
JG> way to school till they graduate from university ?
RM> The mother also didn't create the high way, though your god
RM> allegedly created hell. He may not *send* people to hell, but
RM> he apparently made hell possible.
It's like this ... suppose your father is rich, and you live in a
luxurious mansion, with servants and gourmet food and all you could
want. But you leave, and go live in a tiny rat-infested apartment,
eating peanut butter and shivering in the cold.
Now, your father could come get you and drag you back home. But so long
as you don't want to be there, you'll be miserable and eventually run
away again.
So a wise father simply waits for *you* to decide whether you want to
come home or not. If you do, he rejoices and you are welcomed in to
enjoy all the benefits of your father's house. If you don't, your
father is very sad. But there's no way he can force you to want to come
home, short of lobotomizing you. And destroying who you are in order to
make you want to be home is too high a price.
You suffer greatly for not being home -- bad food, unsanitary living
conditions, no heat in winter -- but your father is not inflicting
those things on you. You chose them by refusing to stay home.
In the same way, God holds the gates of heaven open to any of his
children who want to come home. But he won't force you.
This parable is kind of adapted from Jesus' parable of the prodigal
son. He probably tells it better than I do:
11 Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons.
12 The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of
the estate.' So he divided his property between them. 13 "Not long
after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a
distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14
After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole
country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself
out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed
pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs
were eating, but no one gave him anything. 17 "When he came to his
senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my
father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against
you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one
of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father. "But while
he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with
compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and
kissed him. 21 "The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against
heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe
and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23
Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate.
24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and
is found.' So they began to celebrate.
Luke 15:11-24
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: hell and dalmatians
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:47:00
EID:8726 206955e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B439A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
This subject seems to trouble you, so I'm copying this to you:
-=> Quoting Rena Mcgee to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> God does NOT send "anyone" to hell. Hell is a natural outcome of
JG> making the wrong choices in life. God is much like a mother who tells
JG> her child. Do not play on the 401 highway. The child ignores his
JG> mothers commandment and goes and plays on the highway. A big truck runs
JG> the child over. The mother did not upon realizing her son had disobeyed
JG> her call a truck driver and tell him to run over her child as
JG> punishment. It was a natural result that his mother had warned him
JG> about and he ignored.
RM> A mother who doesn't keep an eye on her child at all times
RM> is guilty of neglect.
JG> And to what age ? Will you still be holding your childs hand on the
JG> way to school till they graduate from university ?
RM> The mother also didn't create the high way, though your god
RM> allegedly created hell. He may not *send* people to hell, but
RM> he apparently made hell possible.
It's like this ... suppose your father is rich, and you live in a
luxurious mansion, with servants and gourmet food and all you could
want. But you leave, and go live in a tiny rat-infested apartment,
eating peanut butter and shivering in the cold.
Now, your father could come get you and drag you back home. But so long
as you don't want to be there, you'll be miserable and eventually run
away again.
So a wise father simply waits for *you* to decide whether you want to
come home or not. If you do, he rejoices and you are welcomed in to
enjoy all the benefits of your father's house. If you don't, your
father is very sad. But there's no way he can force you to want to come
home, short of lobotomizing you. And destroying who you are in order to
make you want to be home is too high a price.
You suffer greatly for not being home -- bad food, unsanitary living
conditions, no heat in winter -- but your father is not inflicting
those things on you. You chose them by refusing to stay home.
In the same way, God holds the gates of heaven open to any of his
children who want to come home. But he won't force you.
This parable is kind of adapted from Jesus' parable of the prodigal
son. He probably tells it better than I do:
11 Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons.
12 The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of
the estate.' So he divided his property between them. 13 "Not long
after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a
distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14
After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole
country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself
out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed
pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs
were eating, but no one gave him anything. 17 "When he came to his
senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my
father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against
you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one
of your hired men.' 20 So he got up and went to his father. "But while
he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with
compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and
kissed him. 21 "The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against
heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe
and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23
Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate.
24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and
is found.' So they began to celebrate.
Luke 15:11-24
... A thousand compromises do not equal a victory.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: face value
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:55:00
EID:5b3c 206956e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B439B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Michael Hardy <=-
MH> I don't think Christians suggest taking anything at face value.
MH> Examples?
KC> The concept of God(tm), for one.
KC> Christ's divinity, for another.
MH> The latter is abundantly evidenced by the resurrection. The
MH> resurrection is itself well-evidenced by the historical situation.
KC> I fail to see how this changes one whit of what you take at face
KC> value. The "historical situation" of the resurrection you claim can
KC> only be considered as a supernatural event. I highly doubt that you
KC> believe, for example, that Troy fell because of the infighting of the
KC> gods.
MH> The resurrection serves as evidence for the existence of God, along
MH> with other evidences.
KC> You'd first have to serve evidence of the resurrection. You're taking
KC> the concept of "God" on a face value.
I've done this many times, and it always falls on deaf ears, so I'm
reluctant to make much effort this time. I'll outline a brief case.
1. People believed the resurrection very soon after it allegedly
happened. Typically, such legends don't develop for decades or
centuries after the death of a leader, and certainly not within the
lifetime of people who knew the leader personally, especially people
who opposed him. In Jesus's case, no more than five years could have
passed.
2. There were a number of other alleged messiahs in the century or so
before and after Jesus. In all cases, when the leader died, the
movement died or else found a new messiah -- sometimes a relative of
the dead one. In Jesus's case, the movement grew much stronger after
his death. And although there was an obvious candidate for a
transferred messiahship -- his brother James -- there's no evidence
that the Jesus-followers' confidence in Jesus ever waned.
3. Jews tend to make shrines of the tombs of fallen leaders. We saw
this just last year when Rabin was assassinated. Yet there's no
evidence that Jesus's tomb was ever venerated.
4. The disciples had been questioning and timid before the
resurrection. Afterward, they became bold and fearless, suffering
persecution, and some dying for their insistence that the resurrection
had happened.
5. Any of the several parties which opposed the Christian movement
could have stopped it cold by simply producing Jesus's body. But none
did.
... I'm not as good a swimmer as I used to be, thanks to evolution.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:45:00
EID:9f76 20699da0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B439C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Excuse me but if you will check the message you are replying to, you
JG> will see he is making a distinction between "true" christians and
JG> people who just "call themselves" christians.
DM> Read the FAQ. One of the most tired, fatuous evasions we get
DM> around here is the old "But he's not a real, TRUE Christian!"
DM> What you say here is yet another iteration of that local joke.
DM> The funny part of the joke is that anyone claiming such a thing
DM> as being able to distinguish between real, TRUE Christians and
DM> the fakes (as you would appear to do here) necessarily must know
DM> what his god alone has the power of knowing--the sincerity of the
DM> profession. Paul Hill claims to be doing God's work when he blows an
DM> abortionist's brains out with a shotgun. You know otherwise?
Even momentarily granting what you say, it still isn't fair to judge
Christianity as a whole by the actions of a few. The vast majority of
Christians disagree with what Paul Hill did. Even if it's not
legitimate to say that he's not a "true Christian," the fact remains
that the majority of Christians repudiate his actions.
But in fact, what you say is not entirely true. The New Testament does
give us some guidelines which show some people's claims of Christianity
to be false. Examples:
1 John 4:8: "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is
love."
1 John 4:20: "If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother,
he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has
seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen."
Jesus did warn of wolves in sheeps' clothing. We do not always know
that someone's claim to be a Christian is false. But we do sometimes
know. To insist that the poor, gullible non-believer can do nothing but
take at face value someone's claim to be a Christian is ridiculous.
... The more I chew on, the less I swallow.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: free will
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:00:00
EID:91f8 2069a000
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B439D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Al Schroeder <=-
AS> As for irrationality...it is at least the Christian religion's
AS> stand that we are sent here not at our own bidding, but for a purpose.
KC> Which renders the concept of Free Will(tm) useless.
AS> And despite the fact that we hope for Heaven, we don't check out at
AS> OUR convenience, but when He's ready for us to.
KC> Which renders the concept of Free Will(tm) useless.
Only if your idea of "free will" is that freely chosen actions
have no consequences -- a silly notion. Just because an
action carries consequences doesn't mean you aren't still
free to choose it.
... To laugh well is to live well.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: refusal
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:04:00
EID:99fc 2069a080
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B439E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Worrell <=-
JG> God does NOT send "anyone" to hell.
DW> Fine. I refuse to go to Hell. What is God going to do with me?
JG>
JG> Are you sure ? What if you don't realize you are going there? What?
JG> Do you think there are big signs saying "Hell 10 kms" or Turn left
JG> for Hell at the next intersection.
JG> Do you think most drug addicts say to themselves. Hey I wanna take
JG> some drugs so I can get into crime and prostitution and then
JG> experience the wonderful pain of withdrawal symptoms when I dont have
JG> any money to get my next fix ?
JG> Do you think people say. Hey I think I will eat 20 twinkies a day for
JG> the next ten years so I can get so obese I cant get out of bed and
JG> I can have a massive coronary? Or gamblers think hey I can hardly
JG> wait to lose all my money and go into tremendous debt so I can spend
JG> my life dodging bill collecter till I get so depressed I blow my
JG> brains out.
JG> Do I need to ask you about alcoholics? Syphilus? or spouse abuse?
JG> So to say "I refuse to go to hell" while doing the things that might
JG> be leading you there, is not going to stop you from ending up there.
JG> It is like being on a train to new york screaming I refuse to go to
JG> new york.
JG> In the meantime what god is doing is sending you messages to get
JG> off the train.
Excellent!
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: they live
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:08:00
EID:e553 2069a100
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B439F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Steve Wallis <=-
SW> Rent the movie "They Live" and check it out-its a good flick. Roddy
SW> Rowdy Piper(remeber that dude)stars in it. Blockbuster should have it.
JB> Oh SHIT! (ROFLMAO) You get your science info from Star Trek and
JB> theology from a PRO-WRESTLER?
JB> And then have the nerve to wonder why we think you are about the
JB> stupidest fuck to ever live. (Second only to Prewett)
I don't know what theology he claims to have learned from Rowdy Roddy,
but it actually is a pretty good movie.
... The danger of leaving God to the 11th hour is you might die at 10:30.
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--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: demon jesus
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:09:00
EID:5252 2069a120
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B43A0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Steve Wallis <=-
SW> "sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven." The devil try's to
SW> camaflouge the minds of people to keep them from seeing the truth. How
SW> can you fight an enemy you cant see? You cant. Unless the blindfold
SW> was removed and you opened your eyes than you'd see clearly enough to
SW> fight and stand your ground.
KC> How do you know that your 'devil' has not couched the person of Jesus
KC> in a 'cloak of light' to force his agenda over two millenia?
Luke 11:14-20
Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon left, the
man who had been mute spoke, and the crowd was amazed. But some of
them said, "By Beelzebub, the prince of demons, he is driving out
demons." Others tested him by asking for a sign from heaven. Jesus
knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against
itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.
If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say
this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub. Now if
I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them
out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons
by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you."
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
* Origin: Di's Online Cafe - Mobile, AL (334) 661-8945 (1:3625/470.0)
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Hardy's full of what-else
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:15:00
EID:e009 2069a1e0
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B43A1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Fredric Rice <=-
MH>> Even evolutionists admit there is little fossil evidence of
MH>> Darwinian evolution. Hence the need to invent punctuated
MH>> equilibrium.
FR> He's full of it. Biologists state that biology makes no sense
FR> if evolution didn't happen and continue to happen. I know of no
FR> biologist who claims that "there is little fossil evidence of
FR> Darwinian evolution."
MG> His error is int he sue of the word "invented". It shows not only his
MG> ignorance of science but his agenda in defending his nonexistant
MG> creator.
Dr. Lane P. Lester holds a Ph.D. in genetics from Perdue. Dr. Raymond
G. Bohlin holds a Ph.D. in genetics from the University of Texas.
They are both creationists. There is a Harvard-educated paleontologist
in Tennessee, whose name I can't recall but can look up Monday, who is
a creationist.
I am not a scientist Martin, and you are, so I do not presume to debate
you on the subject. (I am also not a young-earth creationist, nor do
I deny evoltion -- I just like the argument.)
But why is it that there are people who are well-educated in
disciplines where evolution is assumed, who hold degrees from
prestigious non-sectarian institutions, who reject evolution if
evolution is so obviously true?
... Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a theologian!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: Michael Hardy
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: presumption
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:35:00
EID:98d0 2069a460
MSGID: 1:3625/470.0 893B43A2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11 93-0963
-=> Quoting Kenneth Cavness to Al Schroeder <=-
KC> I really don't see how I can discuss things like this with you unless
KC> you actually know my side of the debate without assuming things from
^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
KC> me or others that agree with me. Since you will obviously not believe
KC> anything that we say, perhaps you'll believe those that have some
KC> semblance of authority in the matter.
AS> I'm trying to picture the author of BEING AND NOTHINGNESS, TRUTH AND
AS> EXISTENCE, and THE AGE OF REASON, and his horror at being regarded as
AS> an "authority" on anything.
KC> Which is why I used "some semblance of authority". :-) Hardy seems to
KC> need books to believe something. I provided him with some authors to
KC> start him off.
You haven't been posting here very long, and you and I have exchanged
only a handful of messages. And yet you ASSUME you know some
significant information about me.
In fact, you're dead wrong. I don't need books, I need cogent,
well-reasoned arguments. If those arguments are contained in a book,
fine, that's a source. If a book is mae up of incoherent ramblings,
then it's useless. I'm interested in the quality of information, not
the medium in which that information is contained.
... Yes, I've tried my hand at sex ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.11
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|From: John Brawley
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Alien autopsy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 09:34:09
EID:8ee9 20694c40
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 ffd20f83
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 634cbac5
On 06 Mar 96, J.J. Hitt wrote:
JB> that, with clear anachronisms in the props used.
JH> I hope that someday (after sales have fallen to non-existant)
JH> someone will fess up and tell us just how they made the film.
Like the hoaxer of the "Gopher wood" fragment of _The_
_Amazing_Discovery_of_Noah's_Ark_ 'fessed up later?
JH> About the phone cord:
JB> Could you please tell me _what_ exactly was wrong with it?
JH> It's disputed, but supposedly COILED phone cords were not
JH> available (as standard equipment) in 1947. They could have
JH> been ordered as early as the 1930's, so I think the whole
JH> phone issue is a red herring.
Ah.... Hmm... Well, I gotta tell ya that coiled cords were in use at
least by the _military_ by the early 1940's: my dad was a communications
(Signal Corps) officer in WWII, and he had a lot (_lot_) of old
equipment that I saw and played with. (I still, today, have some of
that equipment.) Those cords existed, but were not TMK plastic-coated
(they had fabric sheaths). Now, that just means coiling was done, not
that the phone Co. or even military phone systems used them. Hence
unless the cord is definitely black, and definitely _reflects_ light
(hence is smooth and not fabric-coated), that's not a "telling blow."
JB> Damn fine work, too. Do you know whether the genitalia
JB> were "fuzzed out" in the original, or only for the network
JB> broadcast?
JH> That was the doing of the FOX network. The video as marketed
JH> by Ray Santilli has no digital fuzz.
Since I haven't seen the uncensored video, what _is_ there between the
legs?
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Science/Religion: Dharmakh and Jhalahd at Tanagra.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 08 Mar 96 21:23:36
EID:92a1 2068aae0
MSGID: 1:207/212 3037c95e
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313e0f6d
On (05 Mar 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Karen Davis...
AM> Hi Karen. Nice to get a response from a believer once and awhile.
AM> I've been standing my ground in this echo for around 3 months. I've
AM> yet to see anyone truly defend there position that were just here
by
AM> natural causes. Actually, if some were to say, yeah maybe there is
a
AM> God, but I want to do my own thing, I would respect that point of
AM> view for its honesty.
I am not a believer, I am an agnostic and have stood MY ground for far
longer.
I know I'M here by natural causes, my parents had sex. If I'm here by
natural causes so were they, and their parents and their parents and
their parents... all the way back.
What is completely contradicted is a literal interpretation of Genesis.
... STUPIDITY is NOT a handicap...park ELSEWHERE!
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Fundamentalists
|Date: 09 Mar 96 07:48:00
EID:cb2c 20693e00
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 e3acc495
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 313bc50d
On (03 Mar 96) Kenneth Cavness wrote to Masochistic Maiden...
MM> of ending the insanity by NOT striking back and speaking out for the
MM> wonder and value of diversity.
KC> I have several answers to this. ;)
KC> Now: Because in this particular instance, I'd do just fine
KC> without the "wonder" and "value" of fundamentalism. This is
KC> one sect of one religion that I will fight until my last
KC> dying, gasping, smoke-filled, lung-coughing breath to debunk.
KC> This is one sect of one religion where I have no (zero, 0,
KC> none, zip, nada, zilch) respect for any part of it.
KC> I find many Christians to be polite, intelligent, reasoned
KC> people. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number
KC> that have popped up in this sort of conference over the
KC> years. This place is _perfect_ for me.
I guess some people just don't understand why suppressed anger is
a horrible thing to have to live with.
Did you know that Fundamentalists Anonymous uses the same model
as AA, complete with prayer and the works? Sort of the hair of
the dog that bit you, but hardly an appropriate tool for those
who are trying to rid their lives of religion in all its forms,
thanks to having gotten a particularly toxic dose of it at some
time in their lives. For those individuals, HolySmoke and, on
the Internet, alt.atheism and talk,religion.misc are about the
only affordable therapy there is.
... Don't hate yourself in the morning - sleep until noon.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Quotes
|Date: 09 Mar 96 08:05:24
EID:aafb 206940a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 89fabdfc
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 313b9f1d
On (05 Mar 96) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to Michael Hardy...
LB> Masochistic and Michael were killing time yakking about Quotes:
MH> Fred is the real bigot here. He takes the extreme views of fringe
MH> groups and insists they represent the mainstream.
MH> He's not the only one, of course. Other anti-Christers think the same
MH> way. Three anti-abortion activists have killed people. Never mind
MH> that millions of pro-lifers are as appalled at that as anyone else,
MH> people who think like Fred believe that three nuts is proof that
MH> pro-lifers are violent.
LB> Here we go again -- do I need to start reposting the lists, or are you
LB> trying to suggest that any act short of murder is "non-violent"? And
LB> I'll not even dignify your association of the observation that there
LB> is a violent core within the pro-life movement that needs to be
LB> addressed rather than ignored with being an "anti-Christer". Shame
on
LB> you, Michael, for doing the very thing you accuse Fred of doing.
Now you know why I gave up on him and put him in my twit filter.
HIS bigotry toward US is A-OK, but any WE show toward HIM is
off-limits.
Also, anybody who has a different view of what scripture means
is automatically wrong, wrong, wrong, while he, of course, has
a clear-headed and totally accurate view of what scripture
means.
BTW: the trial has started. I can't find much in the papers
about it, except the little blurb that it has, indeed, started.
Can you give me an http address I can go to on the Internet
and perhaps get some day-to-day reports? And, while I'm
thinking of it, what is the Internet address for the Episcopalean
Web site?
... It's a miracle that curiosity survives formal education - Einstein
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i [1]
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:46:02
EID:f0ac 20696dc0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 16ea86f0
REPLY: 1:116/19 02E5AFFE
On (05 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Karen Davis...
AS> Now, the disciples claimed something a little different. They
AS> claimed Jesus was the Son of God and Messiah, sure enough,
AS> and if it was ONLY that, there would be little to distinguish
AS> them from ten thousand other religions, martyrdom or
AS> suffering or imprisonment or not. They also claimed to have
AS> WITNESSED Him...returning from the dead. ALL of them.
Small correct here. (I think I've made this subtle point before,
but I'll try again.)
The GOSPELLERS CLAIMED the disciples claimed. We really don't have
anywhere near enough information to say for a certainty that ANY
of the Gospels were written by those whose names they bear. In
fact, it's almost a certainty that none of them were. To begin
with, there is nothing in the gospels themselves to indicate that
any of the disciples were well-educated enough to write that much
or that well. Outside of Luke, who was a physician, nearly all the
disciples were very ordinary men who held menial jobs, such as
fishermen. There is no reason to believe a fisherman, in that
culture, would be able to write well enough to have written what
is now known as the "gospels." Even in our time, with our
percentage of literacy, there are few common laborers who could
write well enough to turn out something that is written as well.
Eric Hoffer is an exception, not the rule, and he is one out of
literally millions, not four out of a handful that were among the
chosen at that time in that place.
The gospels are clearly somebody's attempt to record the various
"schools" of Christian thought. Although two of them are believed
to be derivative of a third gospel, there are clear departures in
them that would indicate to a disinterested observer that they are
nothing more than somebody's record of the theology of a
particular sect at a particular moment in time -- a time that was
fairly distantly removed from the events themselves.
In all probability, that is why there are significant differences
in the written record of who discovered the empty tomb, for
example: each sect was making an attempt to in some way claim that
it had a record dating back to that event, and therefore wrote the
narrative in such a way as to put one of their antecedents at that
event.
When writers tell of what happened to another person, they are
going by what they've been told, filtered through their own
biases. They are also, in this case, being given absolute trust as
to their absolute accuracy by believers. The main difference
between a believer and a nonbeliever, in this case, is the
willingness to give such absolute trust of absolute accuracy to
somebody who is telling a story that has so many elements that
are, in the experience of the listener, totally impossible. So
long as those elements are in there, ALL the events described can
logically be assumed to have been embellished. Their surreal
quality alone makes such assumptions intellectually honest to the
critical eye, and intellectually dishonest in the eyes of the
nonbeliever when an attempt is made to take them at face value.
Resurrections definitely fall into the category of events that it
would be intellectually dishonest for one to take at face value,
regardless of what committee placed them in what book and declared
its content to be the "word of god." Committees do all sorts of
strange things. Wasn't it a committe that let OJ walk?
So another committe let Jesus walk after the crucifixion. I'm
equally impressed with both decisions.
... Coming soon from Microsoft: Mouse support for EDLIN!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 09 Mar 96 14:13:02
EID:f5d0 206971a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 6734e927
REPLY: 1:116/19 03710748
On (05 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Sue Armstrong...
AS>Gotta run. My neighbors just sighted Elvis making crop circles.
I don't usually respond to taglines, but I can't resist.
Several years ago, the Skeptics held their annual conference in
Seattle, Washington. Carl Sagan was the keynote speaker. In his
speech he said how silly it was to suppose that a people swift
enough to harness the necessary energy to visit us here on Earth
would be simple enough to amuse themselves by making circles in a
wheat field. The very next day in the Portland, OR paper there was
an account of crop circles appearing mysteriously just west of
town, here, outside a suburb called Hillsboro. The coincidence of
the two events struck me as particularly amusing -- almost as if
the aliens were thumbing their nose at Carl, even as he spoke. A
novelist couldn't have done better than that little vignette.
... Jesus saves, Moses invests, the Bagwhan spends and the Mongol hordes
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Matt Bronsil
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Re: Baptism
|Date: 09 Mar 96 16:40:44
EID:1db5 20698500
MSGID: 1:108/265 3142632B
PS> People don't know things in their hearts unless someone has released
PS> h. sapiens sapiens version 2.0.
Unless he has released what??? :)
BJ> could only realize this you would be so much closer to finding out
BJ> the truth.
PS> Ah, so we're all mere puppets on the stage of life. I smell a control
PS> freak, and it isn't me.
Then who is it?
BJ> God loves us so much he came down and lived amoung us. His
PS> He loves us so much that he killed almost everything on earth trying
PS> toget rid of sin, and screwed it up anyway. Some god you worship.
What did he destroy?
BJ> You see Shelby, he is waiting for you and any one else that truly
BJ> looks for him.
PS> I looked for him for years. I didn't find him. Is he playing hide and
PS> goseek with me?
How did you look? Usually, when I cannot find my keys, it is because I
am looking too hard and miss that I had a hold of them the whole time.
Is it the same thing here?
BJ> Shelby God is the same from the beginning of the bible start through
BJ> to the end of it, once you understand this you will have peace
BJ> knowing you can trust in Jesus.
PS> This statement is obviously one made by someone ignorant of the
PS> Bible. TheGod of the OT is a bloodthirsty, egotistical maniac who
Actually, it is made by everybody that studies the Bible. It is also a
fact that the people that wrote the NT were writing from the perspective
of those that knew the OT (The 1st Century Christians were Jews...remember)
So...the God of the OT and NT are the same God.
PS> Bible. TheGod of the OT is a bloodthirsty, egotistical maniac who
PS> slew nations and
PS> leveled regions at the drop of a hat. The God of the NT is
Not really. What nation are you refering to?
PS> leveled regions at the drop of a hat. The God of the NT is
PS> responsible fora much lower body count but says with a nice saccharin
PS> smile that you'd
PS> better worship him or else.
what is his body count?
Also...define "worship" It seems this causes several atheists problems
since they do not understand this word.
TTYL,
Matt Bronsil
097556@Xavier.xu.edu
* SPITFIRE v3.51 -=*> ziGGy's,.. where it's always PARTyTIME!
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: ziGGy's PARTyTIME BBS - Amelia, OH - (513) 753-0071 (1:108/265)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 108/265 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Robert Pappas
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Friends
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:28:00
EID:ca01 2069a380
MSGID: 1:363/309 56e0876c
PID: RA 2.02 8069
> Come on every one get saved, I would like to see you in
> Heaven some
> day!
well do me a favor and prepare me a room; kill yourself now...
---
* Origin: Forethought BBS -=- Orlando, FL -=- 407-679-6561 (1:363/309)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 363/309 319 320 157 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: CONVICTION
|Date: 08 Mar 96 14:54:00
EID:c857 206876c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b80c
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "CONVICTION"
FR> Then I saw them launch suit against schools in California when
FR> they tried to impliment a school uniform. Now I have NO respect
FR> for the fucking ACLU.
JH> Why?
JH> Dress is a form of self expression, and as such is protected speech.
Especially if one is wearing a T-shirt with a saying on it. :)
Seriously, though, I've heard of students being expelled or
suspended or sent home or whatnot for wearing shirts with Bart
Simpson on it, with his pride at being an underachiever. While
the sentiment might be questionable, I don't really see the harm
in a bloody T-shirt, even the ruder ones. Worse, it calls to mind
an incident that apparently occured in China several years ago -
an American woman was arrested for wearing a shirt with Phil
Silver's face on it .. seems he and the Dalai Lama (a persona non
grata in China) share a remarkable resemblance one to the other,
and it's illegal to display the Dalai Lama's face there.
On the other hand, I can almost see dress codes for schools in
certain inner city areas, where kids get beat up or killed for
8-Ball jackets, $200 shoes, etc; but that's not really a free
speech issue when that happens, though 1) it's probably stupid for
the better-off kids to go flouting such things to their have-not
classmates and 2) it likely doesn't do a hell of a lot of good and
3) it's more of a crime issue when people go stealing stuff off of
others' backs like that. Some say that a dress code keeps kids
from picking on each other on the basis of who has "cooler" jeans,
but the experience of kids in Catholic schools here shows that
they simply find OTHER excuses to be mean to each other.
Similarly, thugs can find something else to steal besides clothes
- perhaps watches, fancy pens, cars, or anything else remotely
nice or expensive anyone else happens to have.
One thing for sure -- _I_ would have hated attending a school with
a dress code. There was no way in hell I was ever going to go to
any Catholic high school, because they forced females to wear
(ugh) SKIRTS, no matter how cold the weather. (And we public
school kids used to laugh at them long and loud for that.)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "I gotta go model for a line of action figures. See ya."- MST3K
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: dipstick sees UFO...
|Date: 08 Mar 96 15:06:01
EID:52de 206878c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b80d
A lone voice in the wilderness, Judith mournfully howled out
"dipstick sees UFO..."
DC> Are you sure that isn't in Staal's case "a dummy in the British
DC> Army"?
JB> Target dummy?
I bet he'd make a fantastic Jumping Jerry.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "I'm not a god - I've just been misquoted" - Lister
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: FOF
|Date: 08 Mar 96 15:24:02
EID:b05c 20687b00
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b80e
A lone voice in the wilderness, Katherine mournfully howled out "FOF"
KW> many of you have ever tasted a real fresh egg?). Yes, the big
I have. We used to have an eggman come in from the county every
so often, hawking his eggs from door to door. Sizes were
variable, but hey - they were the best-tasting eggs I've ever had.
He must've had an army of free-rangers to supplement income from
corn or soy or tomatoes or something, since this area isn't a big
animal-agro region. Whatever the reason, though, his eggs were
even cheaper than mass-marketed eggs. You could get a tray of 24
for a couple of bucks, whereas a dozen costs anywhere from 99
cents for the little-bitty eggs to $1.45 for jumbos at the
stupourmarkets.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Trix are for kids - because everyone else is too smart to eat them.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Fof
|Date: 08 Mar 96 15:31:03
EID:0023 20687be0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b80f
A lone voice in the wilderness, Kevin mournfully howled out "Fof"
RJ> 'Course, it didn't pick up the sobriquet "Popemobile" until
RJ> after the bulletproof dome, jetpack, and Bat-grappling hooks
RJ> were installed.
KDM> So, does Popeman have a sidekick?
Sure. Haven't you ever heard of "Altarboy"?
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... How DARE you take advantage of MY blithering idiot! - Ren
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 08 Mar 96 16:06:04
EID:07d0 206880c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b810
A lone voice in the wilderness, Rob mournfully howled out "GAY LOVE"
AS> Ask the Celtic people of England, many of whom were shunted
AS> to Whales, long before Christianity came on the scene.
RB> Sperm or humpback?
AS> Yes, some of it was
AS> justified with Christianity (or given as excuse) but the history of
AS> empires like Rome, Egypt, Pheonicia, etc. don't give me a lot of hope
that
AS> other cultures wouldn't be just as quick to assimilate and destroy
smaller
AS> cultures. Carthage has been salted.
RB> I don't disagree. But the thing is, the possession of the
RB> Christian faith did not 'prevent' more powerful cultures
RB> from acting abysmally toward less powerful ones. If the
RB> actions of Christian armies are no better than Pagan ones,
RB> then where is the moral superiority of Christianity?
Frankly, the Celts were a lot better off under pagan Saxon
invaders than certain other peoples were under Christian invaders
- just ask the Beothuk Indians and the Tasmanian Aborigines. Oh,
wait, you can't. They're extinct. Every last one of them, and
not just in the cultural sense, either.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Human: (N) - One supposedly evolved enough to know better.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: All
|Sub: System kerpfuffle
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:02:05
EID:aa6f 20688840
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b811
Given that my system is now about 6 or 7 years old, it was bound
to break down eventually. It'd been in the shop for a week
getting the keyboard rebuilt and the keyboard interface replaced,
so I probably missed a good whack of messages during that time.
If anyone had anything important to say (or, hell, anything
UNimportant) that you really, really wanted to bring to my
attention, please resend.
Ah, well. So much for my old workhorse having "all its original
parts". :P At least it wasn't the bloody HD and now all my keys work, whereas a good
number of them were dead or half-dead before.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... If your god's dead, you're welcome to try one of mine ....
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Why
|Date: 08 Mar 96 18:45:06
EID:9877 206895a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b812
A lone voice in the wilderness, Robert mournfully howled out "Why"
DW> Ellie Mae or Granny Clampett -- which for you?
RJ> Jeannie.
Mr Bean.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "There was a tiny flaw in the plan. It was bollocks." - Blackadder
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: John Prewett
|Sub: Christian Jobs
|Date: 09 Mar 96 09:29:07
EID:31ea 20694ba0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b813
A lone voice in the wilderness, John mournfully howled out "Christian Jobs"
DC> As long as the neo-Nazi does not use his working time time to
DC> promote his brand of thought, there is no reason that he
DC> should not be hired if qualified for the position.
JP> Later, when the local newspaper does an article about local
JP> neo-Nazis, and the employee's name and picture [perhaps in
JP> uniform giving the Nazi salute] is in the local newspapter,
JP> then the Jewish business owner isn't supposed to notice ?
JP>
JP> So if you owned a business, you should be compelled to hire
JP> an other-wise qualified Bible thumper, as long as the Bible
JP> thumper does not "use his working time to promote his brand of
JP> thought" ?
JP> People can't really compartalize their thinking that neatly.
If the thumper was qualified, then there's no reason _not_ to hire
him, even if you don't like his views. If his views don't get in
the way of the job, then there's no problem from a business point
of view (as for the Neo-Nazis, I doubt any of them would want a
job from a Jew in the first place.)
Besides, such anti-discrimination laws protect Christians, as
well. One one job interview recently, the manager told me that
she'd just hired several people, all of whom said they could
indeed work Sundays. After they were hired, they then all
demanded Sundays off so that they could go to church. Without
discrimination laws, she could have just fired the lot of them,
but the law states that she cannot fire them for wanting time off
(even if they weren't honest about it when hired) to go worship.
Similarly, she can't use the experience to refuse to hire any more
Christians. For one thing, you're not allowed to ask a person's
religion, either on applications or resumes, or in job interviews.
How those businesses whose ads Boni mentioned get away with it,
I've no idea. It is against Ontario _law_ to ask such a thing.
Hell, you aren't even obligated to put your AGE on a form, or to
divulge same in an interview. When you're asked, on an
application form, if you're involved in any clubs or
organisations, etc, it says explicitly NOT to list any religious
or political organisations (which sort of brings up interesting
questions to my mind .. does a kung fu school that teaches Taoist
philosophy count or not?)
Anyway, it may seem odd -- but that's the way things are done
here. Dunno how they do 'em in the US, but different strokes for
different folks, you know. The point of our laws is to make sure
that everyone can indulge in their differing strokes without fear
of discrimination from either government or private business, and
I recommend that the next time Boni sees such an ad, she report it
post-haste to the Ontario Labour Board, as they are quite clearly
in contradiction of Ontario labour laws.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... It's the circle of life, and it moves us all ...
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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PATH: 246/1002 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: more Dan A. Post
|Date: 09 Mar 96 10:26:08
EID:e50a 20695340
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b814
A lone voice in the wilderness, Steve idiotically howled out "more Dan A.
Post"
SW> It says in the Bible that "Andhe causeth all, both small and great
SW> to recieve a mark "IN" there right hand, or "IN" there forheads;
SW> and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or
SW> the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom.
SW> Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast; for
SW> it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore
SW> and six (666)." Revelation 13:16-18
SW> Sounds kinda like a credit card idetification mark dont it? Kinda
SW> funny that it says this will happen in the Bible and governments or
SW> pushing a cashless society eh? These ARE the last days my
SW> friends...
You really ARE a freak, aren't you? Ever stop to think that
printing money is expensive, so it behooves governments to come up
with a way to get rid of minted coins and printed paper? Plus,
cash is dangerous to have on a person. ATM/debit/EFTPOS cards, at
least, require the user to know your PIN number before he can
steal any money, goods, or services with your dough. Hey, I
prefer working in cash, too - but I've seen full-scale EFTPOS in
Australia, and it's quite convenient for all concerned. As far as
credit cards go, I don't have one because I can't afford them -
and I also don't see the point in paying anywhere between 20%-30%
in interest rates on everything I charge.
SW> If someone takes the mark, they are automatically going to hell and
SW> will not find forgiveness or mercy.
So, everyone with a credit card or ATM/debit/EFTPOS card is
doomed? Well, there goes everyone in the Western world. Looks
like the only folks going to heaven are Kalahari Bushmen, and
possibly Asian Communists (assuming here that most countries there
don't have large electronic financial networks.)
You should really go see a psychiatrist, Steve. Your family
doctor can refer you to one, and care is covered under OHIP.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... If you're happy and you know it, Pick on Steve
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: THE COMMANDERS DYING
|Date: 09 Mar 96 11:05:09
EID:bf6d 206958a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3141b815
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "THE
COMMANDERS DYING"
RJ> "Contributor's kits"?? Clue me in...
JH> Tabloids usually have very few (if any) staff writers. Most of
JH> the material comes from "stringers" (freelance writers).
JH> Publications that depend on outside submissions usually have a
JH> small handbook that details what they expect in content and style,
JH> subjects they are and are not interested in, CYA legal guidelines
JH> and other sundry details.
Do they charge for these kits? Somehow, making a living from
making up fantasy stories seems rather appealing.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... On second thought, let us not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Andrew Naim
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: artificial reproducti
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:51:00
EID:95d6 20697e60
MSGID: 1:246/15 313B1166
Well you have a good Point ! But i still think over population is a big
concern...
Andrew Naim
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Knowing
|Date: 09 Mar 96 18:13:03
EID:70b6 206991a0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F25
BJ> No I don't belong to a church called Christ! I belong to the
BJ> United Pentecostal Church. Of course we do believe in Jesus Christ.
For a while my first husband was a minister at a Four Gospel Pentecostal...
I attended for a few years so I'm familiar a bit.
BJ> Do you believe in Jesus Christ?
Christ, Horus, Dionysis, Hercules, Balor, Krishna, etc. Lots of valuable
teachers have visited over the years. I try not to place one teacher above
another, but learn from each.
BJ> For that matter do you know who Jesus is?
I'm very familiar with the stories, and have done a bit of deeper study
into Him. Sorry I can't type Greek characters on this keyboard or I'd ask
you a few question. In the seventh key, the Greek keys as listed in The
Key of It All, (Book Two; The Western Mysteries) by David Allen Hulse I
have read a lot of His Greek names. I like them!
BJ> Some people today don't take the time to read the bible, which is
BJ> God's word. They assume that their Pastor is telling the truth.
Actually, if you want to be informed about the Bible, you should learn both
Hebrew and Greek as well a the history of the development of civilization
and the cultural overlaps between the Jewish and Cannanite groups. I do
not assume any document is fact. I try to see what lessons can be learned
from each and never limit my exposure. Lots of strange writings exist, but
something can be learned from all of them.
BJ> Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind.
BJ> And if the blind [lead the blind], both shall fall into the ditch.
Of course, how do you decide who has sight? The "devine" is something that
is beyond our clear perception, therefore every one is blind. However,
if I am blind and I choose to walk, I would want as much experience with
alternative ways to examine my course as possible. I'd probably be the
person with the seeing eye dog, the white tipped cane, a friend along, and
if possible the new microchip they may soon be implanting in the eyes of
some blind individuals.
BJ> I hope this helps you out. I would suggest looking for a church
BJ> that is Acts 2:38 teachers.
Been there, done that.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Istambul paraphrased
|Date: 09 Mar 96 18:14:32
EID:6e28 206991c0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F26
JH> When the seventh blind man entered the enclosure, the elephant
JH> farted. The blind man was quick to realize the signifigance of
JH> this event: "Oh, the Elephant is like a cocktail lounge. He is
JH> a Great B-A-R R-O-O-M!"
Heheheheheheh well, I haven't heard that one, but I might incorporate it
for comic relief next time I paraphrase The Blindmen of Istambul. Thanks
for the laughs.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Choices
|Date: 09 Mar 96 18:20:04
EID:b800 20699280
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F27
DW> is when those
DW> stories teach something harmful that I am personally worried. I could
My concern is that we try to rid the world of all spirituality because of
the few flakes around. I'm well aware of the attempts at legislating morality...
I don't think it can be done.. I too have no problem with the diversity
of religious expression, but when one path begins to yell "Kill them all
and let the Lord sort his own out." I'm ready to begin saying.... us folks,
calm down.. the constitution is supposed to stop this kind of nonsense.
DW> the TenCommandments. Moderate Christians who can deal with the fact
Moderate Christians, Pagans, Agnostics, Athiests, whatever I can handle.
I'm pretty fundamentaly anti-fundamentalist. :)
DW> Of course, on HolySmoke, just arguing for the sake of arguing is a
DW> prettygood reason, too. :)
I've accustomed to the banter approach, but probably won't join in the name
calling sport. It simply isn't my chosen style.
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Giggle
|Date: 09 Mar 96 18:21:09
EID:c8ca 206992a0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F28
AS> Yes, that's what you said at the time, when I had the usual male
AS> reaction to being greeted by a nude female....
Uh..... of course, that was you???? I forgot to ask, does that come in
adult size?
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Define fundy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:44:31
EID:da6e 20699d80
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F29
KC> Because in this particular instance, I'd do just fine without the
KC> "wonder" and "value" of fundamentalism. This is one sect of one
Uh, then there is a single sect that you have problems with. So, perhaps
you could share your definition of "fundamentalism". I must be functioning
from a different conotation. I view fundies as any group who begin to say
the "My way or the highway" attitude.
It is a shame that you experienced the kind of fanaticism that has left
you hurting. Many fanatical approaches are damaging.
KC> I find many Christians to be polite, intelligent, reasoned people. I
KC> cancount on the fingers of one hand the number that have popped up in
KC> thissort of conference over the years. This place is _perfect_ for
Ahhhh so you assume that all people encountered here are fair game for the
flame thrower? I'll continue as I've been doing and try to explain my views,
and indicate where I feel that things become dangerous. I will try not
to resort to simple name calling if I become unable to support my views.
KC> thissort of conference over the years. This place is _perfect_ for
KC> me.
Venting yourself of the hostility? Is it helping you heal? Is it working
for a world without such fanatical views, or just changing religious fanaticism
for non-religious fanaticism?
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Growing
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:09:21
EID:5479 2069a120
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F2A
KC> My mother, after divorcing my father (I was about 4), turned in
KC> desparation for a stable group of people. Well, stable in the sense
KC> thatthey'd always be there for her. She chose, for various reasons
KC> knownonly to her, to join the Pentecostal church.
That's part of the danger in the world. People often hide from their mental/social
problems inside of religion rather than using their faith to help them admit
the need for help and the responsibility they share for their influence
on others.
KC> The Church allowed my mother to believe that her psychological
KC> problemscould be cured by Christ (they weren't, and I was the brunt
KC> of most ofher anger and hostility toward my father); the Church
Unfortunately I can identify with this statement from my own life. However,
the problem is not confined inside the bounds of a religious setting. It
is a symptom of people out of control. At no time do I condone ignoring
necessary psychiatric help because of religious beliefs. You have my sympathy.
KC> I was made to believe that _I_ was satanic and evil because I
KC> couldn't,no matter how hard I tried, speak in tongues or feel a
KC> presence ofgod. I was simply "not praying hard enough" or "not giving
KC> myself togod." Because I am gay, I was made to feel totally guilty.
I
I do again have to say that i can identify with these statements. It is
hard to work inside a system where you may gain acceptance by a false act,
and be asked to leave because you admitted your farce. That's one of my
earlier experiences with Charismatic faiths. However I have looked into
it a bit further and found that the experience can happen to some people.
KC> in theterm. It almost caused me to suspend my thought processes, and
KC> ignorelogic and reason, because what I was doing was not what seemed
KC> right.
Anytime onw group begins to say their view is the only "right" view and
hold it strickly over others this kind of mind control can be the result.
I still say I celebrate diversity. If my friend chooses a Charismatic Fundamental
faith, it in no way says that she MUST behave as you Mother did. Inside
or outside of religion I still see forceing anyone to walk a certain religious
path as a form of abuse. Of course, I also see denying anyone the right
to follow the path they choose as just as abusive. I'll probably keep getting
flames from all sides, and I can pretty well handle that. I'll just hit
enter if things get too hot... probably won't happen.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Tom Hart
|Sub: Open minds
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:22:52
EID:91c3 2069a2c0
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F2B
TH> Have you called/written to your gov't reps. yet to tell them you
TH> do not want religion legislated and to repleal the current religious
TH> legislation?
TH> Discussion has to be honest though, wouldn't you agree? And name
TH> calling, like saying someone is "closed-minded", isn't helpful in
TH> tryingto communicate.
I have to agree with you!! I tire of the name calling on all sides. I
feel that religion can be discussed without becoming so emotionally involved
that you lose control of your command of English (or whichever language
the discussion is taking place in).
I also support the active involvement of every individual in keeping their
views before the political representatives. At least, get out and vote and
have some idea of what you are voting about. Learn a little about the candidates
running, and how their past represents their probable performance as representative.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Found him!!!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:42:53
EID:f4b0 2069a540
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F2C
JH> MISSING CHILD ALERT
JH> )\ _.___._ /(
JH> /:|'##666##'|:\ Name: Satan
JH> / __ __ \ Date of Birth: October 23, 4004 BC
JH> : __~\ /~__ : Race: Mytholical
JH> ( ( .\ \|/ /. ) ) Hair: none
JH> | \_~_) . (_~_/ | Eyes: red, glowing
JH> (._ ~ /_\ ~ _.)
JH> \\_._._._._// Last seen in the company of Jesus
JH> \\V V V V// Christ, a convicted felon from
JH> \\.^.^.// the middle east. Satan was wearing
JH> (_____) red leotards with a matching cape.
JH> "Have you seen me?
JH> Mr. Christ is reported to have been wearing a white bathrobe.
JH> If you have any information regarding this missing demon or
JH> of any missing sprite, imp, devil, demigod, seraphim or
JH> magical being please call:
JH>
JH> National Lost Cause Recovery Service at 1-800-GET-LOST.
Hey!!!! I think I found a candidate for your lost child, Satan.
In fact, possibly two.
First one is a friend of mine. We call him the anti-Chris, and his work
ID number is 666. He's associated often with dragons, and has a cynical
outlook on religion, believing more in the internal systems of control for
self gain.
Second one is the moderator on FIDO Magick. He at least goes by the title.
Personally I'd cast my vote for the anti-Chris.
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|From: Masochistic Maiden
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: Question?
|Date: 09 Mar 96 21:12:49
EID:90e8 2069a980
MSGID: 1:352/266 31424F2D
SM> The products of seeds of the genus __Theobrannica__ ARE an ideology!!
Ummmmmmmm Chocolate........ ???? Hey, there's a religion in there somewhere
maybe. Troi on Startrek certainly can make a ritual out of a cup of hot
chocolate. Let's see, now that there's blue M&M's ........ Hey! that could
work. hehehe
* SPITFIRE v3.51 Le Maison De Metal - (360) 493-0798 - Olympia, WA.
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Get This...DIFFERENT DOES NOT EQUAL WRONG!! (1:352/266)
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SEEN-BY: 348/105 352/266 600 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
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SEEN-BY: 3805/3 7107/9
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolung
|Date: 06 Mar 96 09:31:39
EID:e578 20664be0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3141d87a
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org e866f3d7
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Andrew Masten <=-
AM>-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> AM> Some divinity schools are so secular, you can get a degree without
even
AM> AM> knowing the names of the books of the bible.
AM> KS> Name some (or just one) of them.
AM> Yale University.
KS> Uh huh. I just called them in New Haven. The number is 203-432-5360.
KS> They say you are wrong.
KS> We are now ready for your next lie.
What do they say I am wrong about? And being wrong about something does
not make one a liar does it?
Established in 1701 as the Collegiate School, Yale University
(enrollment: 10,851; library: 9,143,700 volumes) is a private
liberal arts coeducational institution in New Haven, Conn. It is a
member of the Ivy League. In addition to the undergraduate Yale
College there are schools of medicine, divinity, law, art, ect.
Source Grolier Encyclopedia
My oldest brother attended this college in the 60's. It was very radical.
Drew University
Established in 1866 and associated with the United Methodist
church, Drew University (enrollment: 2,327; library: 398,749
volumes) is a private coeducational school in Madison, N.J. It has
a graduate school and a Methodist theological seminary.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolung
|Date: 07 Mar 96 08:49:44
EID:e578 20674620
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3141d87b
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 0c12bf6c
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> DW> 22 Feb 96 07:50, Andrew Masten wrote to Elliott Finesse:
AM> EF>> There you go. I mean, you don't pretend to know more about
AM> EF>> theology than a seminary trained clergyman do you?
AM> AM> Some seminary schools are so secular, you can get a degree without
AM> AM> even knowing the names of the books of the bible.
AM> DW> Name these seminaries.
AM> For one, Pacific Luthren University.
KS> I have already checked with Yale, for which you made the same
KS> (wrong) claim.
KS> Here, you have misspelled Lutheran (which is what I assume you
KS> meant)... Where is it located? I want to call them, too.
Tacoma, Wa.
AM> DW>
AM> DW> Try getting the title of the book right, dipshit. Darwin talked
about
AM> DW> the origin of species, not the origin of life. The theory of evolution
AM> DW> does not address the origin of life.
AM> But others jumped on the band wagon and used it as a pretext to advance
AM> there theories of origin of life.
KS> And these 'others' are?
KS> And what is 'there' theories?
One would be A.I Orapin " Origin of Life" Macmillian 1924
He advanced various hypothesis of how life could begin from inanimate
matter.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 07 Mar 96 08:59:36
EID:cb76 20674760
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3141d87c
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 20081c86
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> Brian, its nice to see you read the bible, its a shame you don't know
am> what it means. You quoted instances when God was either smitting the
am> enemies of Israel, or chastising His own people. Have your parents
am> ever corrected you? Did it mean they didn't love. I let you know a
am> little secret, if they didn't correct you, it was because they didn't
am> love you.
FR> That justification for rape, torture, and murder is why the
fr> Christanic death cult has the history that it does, Andy.
FR> It's a pity that you agreed to become part of it.
am> Fredric, you read the sayings of Christ, and show me the justifcation
FR> There were thousands of Christs, cultist. There are no known writings
FR> of a "Jesus Christ," however. If you wish to use your death cult
I said Christ's sayings, I never claimed there were writings by Jesus
Christ.
FR> mythologies to justify inhuman tyrannies, rape, torture, and murder,
FR> you had better come up with some deities.
You still haven't shown how the teachings of Christ can be used as a
pretext for rape murder and torture.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:05:50
EID:7314 206748a0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3141d87d
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 46c868eb
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Andrew Masten <=-
AM> AM> Not at all. Christ was innocent, and died on our behalf. If
you
KS> want AM>to AM> believe that, you will recieve a full pardon. Christs
mission
is AM> AM> salvation, not condemnation.
AM> KS> WAITAFUCKINGMINNIT....if he was 'innocent' why was he 'punished'???
AM> He took our punisment upon Himself so we could be declared 'innocent'.
AM> Christ said himself He came to give his life a ransom for many.
KS> And this absurdity makes any sense at all to you? Astounding.
Yes, it makes sense to me.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:11:41
EID:f56a 20674960
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3141d87e
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89380E2F
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 03-02-96 10:39, Andrew Masten got back to Jim Germiquet
AM> Thats a good point Jim. It's normal for intelligent man to create
AM> intelligent
AM> things, like a computer. But how did mechanistic impersonal processes
AM> create personal moral intelligent people?
DC> In your case, the jury voted against you.
DC> Nature doesn't give a shit as to what a species evolves into, only
DC> that the species survives in the nitch that it finds. If it is
DC> well suited, it thrives. If not, it either evolves some more or
DC> it dies out.
That well suited animals thrive is self evident. Thats not evidence
that we all evolved from cells formed in a premordial soup.
DC> The only "mechanism" involved is survival of the species. It
DC> is handled in various ways, such as a large production of offspring
DC> with the hopes that some may survive or a symbiotic relationship
DC> in which 2 different species help each other, etc. Yes, whether you
DC> like it or not, there are different species that perform deeds
DC> that aid in the survival of each separate one.
Clearly many animals have formed symbiotic relationships. Termites
have a organism living in thier digestive tracts that breaks down
wood. I wonder how that worked in the evolutionary scheme of things.
Did the termites start eating wood and then the organisms came. Or
were the organisms first, then evolved a termite around them?
The survival of the fittest only tells us that the fittest survived. It
says nothing about how atoms self assembled into humans. Or how inpersonal
nature could create personal man.
DC> Your mistake is in thinking that nature actually is conscious. It
DC> isn't. It is only your projection of a consciousness on nature
DC> that makes it into the god you think exists.
DC> ... Nature never breaks her own laws. - Leonardo Da Vinci
DC> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
DC> -!- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
DC> ! Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:30:25
EID:f56a 20674bc0
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3141d87f
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 89380E3E
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Andrew Masten <=-
-> On 03-03-96 04:08, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Why did you godling tell his desciples to take up the sword
DC> prior to that engagement?
He didn't tell them to use it.
AM> That those who live by
AM> the sword, will die by the sword.
DC> It's all in your religious beliefs. Too bad your religion has
DC> never honored them without a sword pointed at the throats of
DC> the non-believers.
Has anyone claiming to be a Christian witnessed to you at knife point?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 07 Mar 96 09:35:09
EID:9d2c 20674c60
TID: IMAIL-386 1.75+ PK29
MSGID: 1:138/255.0 3141d880
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 313c70e0
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Andrew Masten <=-
DM> Andrew Masten said "Evidence" to Katherine Wintersnight,
DM> adding:
PS> AM> terms for producing evidence are a one way street. That this is
a
PS> AM> religeous debate echo is a misnomer, its really a Christain
PS> AM> bashing echo.
PS>Point of order: As you may or may not have seen, we bash some pagans,
PS>Satanists, an occasional Muslim, and even atheists and agnostics. Don't
PS>try to play the "pity me, pity me" game. Besides, doesn't your holy book
PS>say that you're blessed for being "persecuted"?
AM> You have a point. I noticed the one satanist on this board is
AM> catching alot of flack. But I don't feel any different regarding the
AM> evidence issue.
DM> People who don't have any evidence generally feel that
DM> way about it. Probably Asmodiddley feels much as you do. You
DM> may wish to extend him some Christian comfort.
The dearth of evidence is in refutation to the evidence I produced.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: My Desk, Puyallup, WA (206) 845-2418 (1:138/255)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 138/255 1 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 08 Mar 96 18:18:00
EID:a9d9 20689240
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0E9F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 14:39, Marilyn Burge got back to Jim Germiquet
JG> Would you like a husband that loved you because he HAD to
JG> or loved you because he CHOSE to?
MB> But that isn't the choice we're talking about. We're talking
MB> god himself. When you have to rewrite the dictionary in order
MB> to "make it work," that's a distinct possibility.
Wait until you read his re-definition to Martin G on what "spirit"
is. He doesn't subsribe to the Salad Bar brand of xianity but
to the Fondue sect, where he can cook it the way he thinks that
it should be cooked.
BTW, book received and in process of reading!
... "God told me" is no excuse for stupidity. -- Steve Quarrella
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 08 Mar 96 18:23:00
EID:f689 206892e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA0
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-04-96 19:51, Norbert Sykes got back to J.j. Hitt
NS> else had titles. Doc Savage WAS a doctor. Doctor Strange was a
NS> doctor of something or other, wasn't he?
Doctor Strange was a surgeon, out for the big bucks. He let a
kid die because he refused to perform the surgery as the parents
couldn't come up with his outrageous fee.
(Sounds a lot like the current medical care system in this
country, don't it?)
... Hex Dump -- Where witches throw away old curses
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 08 Mar 96 18:32:00
EID:0adc 20689400
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA1
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 15:38, Jim Germiquet got back to Don Martin
DM> First things first. Got any non-Biblical evidence that the god
DM> you so limit has any existence outside of human imagination? If so,
DM> please present it: we can get to your character adjustments to the
DM> diety later.
JG> whoops almost forgot to respond to this.
JG> Truth ? What is truth? Seems Jesus was asked this question.
Seems like you forgot to answer the question. It had to do with
a little fact called evidence. Got any for your god, or even
for his godling?
... Grab the back of your T.V. set and feel the power of the Lord!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: better than
|Date: 08 Mar 96 18:36:00
EID:1089 20689480
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA2
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-06-96 23:57, Rob Burcham got back to Michael Hardy
MH> Lincoln's not a better leader than me
MH> I lead better than him
MH> Because they're dead.
RB> Then, it logically follows:
RB> Jesus isn't a better god than me
Congradulations on your ascendancy to god-hood. Take your place
over there with Preston Simpson. We're going to get a god group
photo....
... +Origin: IGNIGHTUS NETWORK! PLEASE BURN US FOR JESUS!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Chesterton
|Date: 08 Mar 96 18:42:00
EID:0631 20689540
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA3
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-06-96 06:35, Judith Bandsma got back to Al Schroeder
JB> stories. In the introduction, it says that Chesterton never held a
JB> grudge against any other religion, with the exception of Quakers. No
JB> Any idea why? I'm really curious about that remark.
Could it be that the Quakers never provided him with good suspects
to you in his murder stories??? :)
... Clumsiness _is_ godliness.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 08 Mar 96 18:52:00
EID:f0e6 20689680
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA4
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 03:19, J.j. Hitt got back to Sue Armstrong
JH> conveince store) Cuban place that doesn't mess with menus.
JH> You'll eat what "Mama" wants you to eat. And they'll charge
JH> you what they want to charge you. (I shit you not, the
JH> price seems to depend on how well you are dressed and
JH> wether they have paid the light bill yet this month or
JH> not). The food is great though.
I always wanted to open a place like that! Seriously!
Let me know if it stays or has stayed open for over 3 years and
I'll start my version of the same. After all, the best food is
the freshed, and that varies widely from even day to day, let
alone season to season...
"Welcome to God Dan's Chinese Italian Mexican French English
Restaurant. You have no choice but to like the meal or complain
to the Board of Health. Haggis is today's only offaling...."
... Satan is a used car salesman in New York City......
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 08 Mar 96 19:38:00
EID:a734 20689cc0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA5
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-06-96 07:55, Judith Bandsma got back to Steve Wallis
SW> Rowdy Piper(remeber that dude)stars in it. Blockbuster should have it.
JB> Oh SHIT! (ROFLMAO) You get your science info from Star Trek and
JB> theology from a PRO-WRESTLER?
Now, Judith, just how did you know that.... I was thinking more
along the line that he meant Piper Laurie or Roddy McDowell. :)
JB> stupidest fuck to ever live. (Second only to Prewett)
Close enough that we could have a coin toss to decide that!
... Hell, cars obviously "go against God's design" - he gave us legs. DW
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Hi
|Date: 08 Mar 96 19:47:00
EID:cac2 20689de0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA6
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 04:08, J.j. Hitt got back to Kenneth Cavness
KC> Please, continue. Tell me about my poor sex life, next. And
KC> how I don't have a life, posting in this medium.
JH> Would you like to buy a new cliche' ?
New cliche's are a dime a dozen...
... "Of course you realize, THIS means WAR!" - Bugs Bunny
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE PICK YER PO
|Date: 08 Mar 96 19:49:00
EID:1cd0 20689e20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA7
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 17:21, Judith Bandsma got back to J.j. Hitt
JH> With LIME ?
JB> Yeah, cuts the sticky sweetness. When I was able to drink, the only
JB> way I could drink beer was draft with lime. Not bad, that way.
With Dos Equis, you need a gallon of lime juice per bottle of
beer. Use slightly less, only if you are *really* daring!
... "Inconceivable!" - Vinzinni
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 08 Mar 96 20:09:00
EID:a6e4 2068a120
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA8
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-06-96 12:17, Brad Jackson got back to Masochistic Maiden
BJ> I hope this helps you out. I would suggest looking for a church
BJ> that is Acts 2:38 teachers.
Don't bother, as it closed before the end of the first Act...
... +Origin: Goy Network!: Putzes and schlemiels for Jesus!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 08 Mar 96 20:14:00
EID:00fb 2068a1c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EA9
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-06-96 13:00, Don Martin got back to Judith Bandsma
JB> my granddaughters again until Jordan is in school and Holly will be
at
DM> At our age, four years is just the instant from one set
DM> of assholes running for president to another set, but as a
DM> chunk of a kid's life, it is major. You'll miss a lot.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Going soft on sentiment, you old curmudgeon?
After all, turn-about is most definitely fair play! :)
... "Suppose I made an analogy that wasn't debunked?" Wished by M Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Missing Child Alert - Sat
|Date: 08 Mar 96 20:23:00
EID:c79d 2068a2e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EAA
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 04:10, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
JH>> )\ _.___._ /(
JH>> /:|'##666##'|:\
JH>> / __ __ \
JH>> : __~\ /~__ :
JH>> ( ( .\ \|/ /. ) )
JH>> | \_~_) . (_~_/ |
JH>> (._ ~ /_\ ~ _.)
JH>> \\_._._._._//
JH>> \\V V V V//
JH>> \\.^.^.//
JH>> (_____)
JH>>
JH> Satan at 15 Gee's.
And a few "Gee wizzess", I'm sure!
JH> I got a bit of a kick out of it myself.
Figured you might. I think I'll save my skewed version to file.
As I mentioned, the ASCII works well when I save it and then
import it to a message! Gotten that, and other strange results
on quotes that are too good to ignore! It's the price I pay for
reasonable quoting of the messages I respond. Too bad most
of them are unreasonble fundy messages...
Oh, well, as Jesus would say, "Shit happens."
... "God breaks his laws only when necessary.": Mikey Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: perservere [1/2] [2/2
|Date: 08 Mar 96 20:34:00
EID:8cc7 2068a440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EAB
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-05-96 20:57, Kenneth Cavness got back to Sue Armstrong
DC> votes, but there was a tie in the Electoral College votes.
SA> I was, in fact, wondering about that - what if the College members
SA> said to hell with it, and voted for whoever THEY wanted in?
KC> A recent case are those delegates that chose Clinton, even though
KC> their state actually chose Bush.
Damnation! Missed that! What state(s) where involved? I was
under the impression that the Electoral College delegates were
under the aegis to vote for whoever their state told them to
vote, at least in the first round...
... Is man one of God's blunders, or is God one of man's?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lon S. Mabon
|Sub: Who's who...
|Date: 08 Mar 96 21:33:00
EID:6475 2068ac20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EAC
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 02:29, Lon S. Mabon got back to All
Lose your meds again, Jimbo?
... "I'd be 'Erudite' if I knew what the fuck it meant..." Jim Staaled
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Cookies as cures.
|Date: 09 Mar 96 12:29:00
EID:7dc2 206963a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893C0EAD
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-03-96 22:19, Sean Mccullough got back to Dan Ceppa
> JP> Maybe you could persuade killers to stop being killers
> JP> by promising to bake them some chocolate cookies each
> MM> system.... and now that I think of it.... a lot of those were over
> MM> fresh hot chocolate chip cookies.... Tollhouse in fact.
> For someone claiming to try to stick to the facts and the ideologies,
> you are doing a miserable job.
SM> The products of seeds of the genus __Theobrannica__ ARE an ideology!!
SM> God Dan it!! :-)
No, choclate isn't an ideology, it's a way of life...
> to bake John on a cookie sheet to make an example out of him.
SM> In Rome. At the Vatican.
SM> DON'T get me started!! :-)
Well, those pasty communion wafers could use a new flavor. :)
... Anything that is good and useful is made of chocolate.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dawn Kleuser
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:09:35
EID:df18 2069a120
MSGID: 1:289/80 31429DB0
Aw, c'mon, Karl, yer wreckin' my fun...
* SPITFIRE v3.51
--- Alexi/Mail 2.00 (#10000)
* Origin: Terminal Velocity * Macks Creek, Mo (1:289/80) (1:289/80)
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PATH: 289/80 284/12 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:44:00
EID:2154 206a0580
MSGID: 1:3819/163 31427E3D
DC>-> On 03-05-96 17:19, Mark Barnett got back to Dawn Kleuser
DC> MB> I Belive in Angels Also for any one that reads the bible should
also
DC> MB> belive for the Bible says they exist.
DC>You book of fables also says the Noah's Flood happened. Got
DC>any evidence for that, too?
Well What Kind of evidence do you whant. You will find that any
evidence that you find or that I find we will have points in them that
we will disagree on the truth of it.
Now there are three other account's of a great flood That are not
biblical in nature the are some differaces in the Divinty in question.
These are from Mesopotamian, one is from Sumerian and is the oldest and
the fullest. The next is from a Akkadian text, and finaly the flood is
talked about in the Gilgamesh Epic. These all say that a "God" caused a
flood that destroyed all mankind save one Man and his familly and that
he build a great boat and save animals and his family. and that when
the flood was over he made a scriface to God.
The main evidence I have is in the value I place in the book. I could
also state that there as been a lot of Archaeological Evidence for that
other Items in this Book. So I will say that I belive and I will try
and get so evidence that you will find acceptable and get back to you.
What do you belive in?
* OLX 2.1 TD * ... DROP YOUR CARRIER ... We Have you Surrounded!!!
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 10 Mar 96 04:33:07
EID:ba4f 206a2420
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3142a1d2
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Your Daily Murder wgah'nagl fhtagn.
RM> No, *humane* would be allowing the women and children to live in
RM> peace, with a promise that the survivors not seek revenge.
JG> Oh really ? And who would the women marry ? In that day and age, any
JG> kind of mercy to a defeated enemy would be looked on as weakness and
JG> invite others to rebel against you or attack you.
Hmmm. Out of curiosity, does this stance apply to unwanted offspring who
are given up for adoption or aborted?
But I digress. We have a nation that we'll call "X" for the hell of it.
X invades and conquers another country for no damn good reason. X's
leaders decide that the best course of action is to kill everybody
except the little virgin girls, who will be kept alive. All others
are put to the sword.
This is a remarkably stupid and inefficient way to do such things. The
Romans didn't do this, and their empire lasted far, far longer than
Israel did in the old days. Hell, some other cultures took over the
macrostructure but left the regional governors in place, and ruled
for centuries. Invading a land and wiping out nearly everyone there
gets you a well-deserved reputation for brutality, and if anything,
might incite surrounding nations to attack the attacker as a pre-emptive
strike.
Think about it. If you awoke one morning to the sound of gunfire and
discovered that your neighbor had invaded his neighbor's house, killed
everyone there except for that family's little girl, and taken her as
a slave, wouldn't *you* feel disposed to do something about it, before
he came after you?
RM> Despite what you may think, females *are* capable of surviving
RM> without male "protection"
JG> HAHAHAHA ! Yeah in todays society with all the lobbying of politicians
JG> and the laws and legal institutions. We are not talking about modern
JG> day North America . We are talking of a savage land and a savage
JG> people.
You are living in a dream world, Jim. Though the average male of that
day and age could probably defeat the average female in single combat,
factor in the possibility of that female attempting to defend a child
and the situation gets much, much bloodier.
Women are not utterly defenseless, no matter how much you might like to
think that it's so. I've met many that I would rather have at my back
in a scrap than some men that I've known.
JG> And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for
JG> your new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you
JG> continue the race through the virgins.
Rape is distasteful no matter the justification behind it. Even more
distasteful are the scrofulous toads who attempt such justification.
I congratulate you on being one of the very few people that I barely
know and utterly despise.
JG> Depends on how you view marriage. Perhaps they might consider it to
JG> continue on a spiritual basis after physical death. Also a great way
JG> to be safe from the passing on of STD's :-)
You're talking about killing innocent people, Jim. I hardly think that
it's a subject worth levity.
JG> It has nothing to do with "condoning" anything. I merely state what
JG> I think may have been the reasons why these things were done in those
JG> ancient times.
And putting it under the banner of "God told us to" somehow makes it better?
If I murdered your children and sodomized your wife while you were forced
to look on and unable to do anything about it, would you feel better if
I
told you I was acting on orders from God? The "I was following orders"
excuse didn't work at Nuremburg. Why should it apply here?
... AD&D Quote: "I said hit HIM with the fireball, not me!"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: one more time
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:02:00
EID:4283 2069a040
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 89783091
MH> In this case, I don't agree with FoF's position, but I don't
MH> see evidence of hate. I guess you will never understand,
MH> because you don't agree that homosexuality is morally wrong. I
MH> see a group of
JB> How can I see homosexuality as morally wrong when I don't
JB> believe it is a CHOICE? I believe it is as much a part of the
JB> person as their eye or hair or skin color...something they
JB> didn't choose.
MH> well-intentioned Christians trying to balance hatred for sin
MH> with love for the sinner, and making some mistakes in their
MH> approach. But I do not see hate for people, wheras I do see
MH> that hate in racism.
JB> Oh, so the baseball bats, etc are for the SIN? Strange that
JB> they seem to miss their mark and hit the 'sinner' instead.
--snip--
JB> a crime no matter who it is perpetrated against. For now, it
JB> isn't. And, as I said before, those who go out on Saturday
JB> nights with baseball bats looking to 'have some fun with some
JB> fags' are NOT aiming at what they see as a sin. They are
JB> looking to HURT someone...someONE, Mike, a flesh and blood
JB> person. Simply because they dislike their lifestyle? And
JB> people like Dobson, Phelps and that ilk only fan the flames
JB> and teach them that it is ok...that there is biblical
JB> justification for bashing these PEOPLE. PEOPLE, Mike, not
JB> amorphous, intangible SINS. If you can't see that as hate then
JB> I wonder if you know what any emotion feels like.
MH> What right is anyone trying to take away, Judith?
JB> The right to be seen as a human being FIRST, with all that
JB> entails.
Beautifully stated, Judith. Those who claim to hate the sin but love
the sinner must have difficulty in other parts of life too. Do they
hate the murder but love the murderer? If so, they never seem to
find it necessary to mention it.
... REALITY.SYS not found. Reboot universe? (Y/N)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
---
* KMail 3.10m Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:03:07
EID:3096 2069a060
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141e56b
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 220ff01f
07 Mar 96 15:38, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>> God does NOT send "anyone" to hell.
DW>> Fine. I refuse to go to Hell. What is God going to do with me?
JG> Are you sure?
What do you mean, am I sure? Is Hell disguised to look like Heaven, dipshit?
You claim that God does not send anyone to Hell. I refuse to go to Hell
on my own. What is going to happen to me on judgment day? Since I refuse
to go to hell and God sends no one to hell, I must be going to Heaven, huh?
JG> So to say "I refuse to go to hell" while doing the things that might
JG> be leading you there,
Nothing is leading me to Hell, dipshit, unless it is your God.
JG> is not going to stop you from ending up there.
JG> It is like being on a train to new york screaming I refuse to go
JG> to new york.
No, it is like refusing to get on the train if I don't want to go to New
York. Who is going to put me there?
JG> In the meantime what god is doing is sending you messages to get
JG> off the train.
Tell God to try registered mail - his messages are not arriving here.
JG>> Who is to say which one knows what it really means.
DW>> Anyone who can read. The verses in question tell us that certain
DW>> signs will follow true believers. Why have we not seen all these
DW>> signs?
JG> Maybe you aren't looking in the right places :-)
I'll pour - will you drink?
JG> Maybe you refuse to believe it when it happens and call it a
JG> hoax :-)
I'll pour - will you drink?
JG> Maybe there aren't any true believers :-)
That's what the verse leads me to conclude.
JG> Maybe the verse was taken out of context :-)
I'll pour - will you drink?
JG> But anyone who feels they have to PROVE god to themselves or
JG> anyone
JG> else by drinking poison
This is not a matter of testing God. The bible tells us how to determine
a true follower of God. We are testing *you*, not God.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:09:08
EID:3096 2069a120
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141e596
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 220ff01f
07 Mar 96 15:38, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG> is doubt. A person who knows who they are and what they believe ,
JG> doesnt have to prove it to anyone.
I know I'm Jehovah. Since you've just said I don't have to prove it to anyone,
bow down and worship me.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:49:14
EID:42ba 20696e20
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31418cc7
REPLY: 1:271/460 313e575a
06 Mar 96 22:24, Kenneth Mcabee wrote to David Worrell:
KC>>>> Your god sure is mercurial.
KM>>> He sure is, praise the Lord.
DW>> Do you know what mercurial means, dipshit? Open that dictionary
DW>> you're always babbling about and look it up.
DW>> HINT: It does not mean merciful.
KM> Do you know what sarcasm?
Sure I do, Ken. You, however, have shown no understanding of sarcasm in
the past. Thus, I doubt that you really know what it is or how to use it.
The only conclusion I can draw from the evidence presented is that you made
a mistake and are now lying to try to cover it up. Silly li'l fundy.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:17:35
EID:7c91 20699a20
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141d985
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313e0f6d
05 Mar 96 09:11, Andrew Masten wrote to Karen Davis:
AM>> Many who comment on this echo, don't just disbelieve in God,
AM>> but loathe the God they claim they don't believe in.
KD>> Consider it along the lines of "I wouldn't worship that guy even
KD>> if he was shown to exist."
AM> Hi Karen. Nice to get a response from a believer once and awhile.
You can't even tell the sheep from the wolves, can you?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:18:24
EID:1e88 20699a40
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141d9a6
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313e0f6d
05 Mar 96 09:11, Andrew Masten wrote to Karen Davis:
KD>> Consider it along the lines of "I wouldn't worship that guy even
KD>> if he was shown to exist."
AM> Hi Karen. Nice to get a response from a believer once and awhile.
Are you going to let him get away with calling you an xtian?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:38:46
EID:af5f 20696cc0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31418a2c
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313cf18f
05 Mar 96 06:28, Andrew Masten wrote to Dan Ceppa:
AM> I haven't seen anyone bother to cite evidence of how the universe
AM> self assembled out of atoms, and then atoms ultimately self
AM> assembled into man.
That's because no one has made that claim, numbnuts. You have made a claim,
however, and have provided nothing to support it other than supposition.
Where is your *evidence*?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Robert Jackson
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:01:56
EID:0337 2069a020
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141e3c9
REPLY: 1:390/87.0 313dc84f
06 Mar 96 01:36, Robert Jackson wrote to Andrew Masten:
AM>> Jim, your not gonna make alot of friends in this echo. But I like
AM>> your hudspa.
This is what I get for skimming messages.
RJ> Congratulations! You got four whole letters correct.
RJ> The word is "chutzpah".
Wanna bet he tries to play it off as a typo?
Don't you love it when fundies try to use $2 words?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: flood
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:53:13
EID:fce9 20699ea0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141e1cf
REPLY: 1:280/76.0 14310ffb
07 Mar 96 22:30, Rob Burcham wrote to Andrew Masten:
AM> RB>> You are correct. It is evidence that they 'believed'. Some
AM> RB>> people 'believe' they've been abducted by aliens. Are you
AM> RB>> willing to accept THEIR beliefs?
AM>>
AM>> If, on threat of execution by torture, they did not recant, I
AM>> would be compelled to believe they were not fabricating a
AM>> story.
Do you believe Joan of Arc's claim that she talked to God?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Steve Wallis
|Sub: fof update, staal
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:14:12
EID:56f8 206999c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141d8ab
REPLY: 1:246/15 313745A1
06 Mar 96 18:44, Steve Wallis wrote to Dan Ceppa:
DC>> Kill any doctors lately, Steve?
SW> It says in the Bible "Thou shalt not kill" But to answer your
SW> question:
SW> NOPE!
It also says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
Kill any witches lately, Steve?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Paul Churchill
|Sub: GOODBYE OLD FRIEND
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:31:08
EID:8f31 20696be0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141882a
06 Mar 96 07:48, Judith Bandsma wrote to Paul Churchill:
PC>> Sorry to say I have been way to busy to keep track of this
PC>> debate down there in States.....does this mean I can swear at
PC>> David Worrell, but he can't swear back ? :)
Fuck no.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:15:32
EID:3ac7 206999e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141d90a
REPLY: 1:228/26.14 1b80f676
06 Mar 96 11:12, Jim Staal wrote to Fredric Rice:
FR>> You may not leave until _I_ say you may.
JS> Does that mean I have to come back???
You never left, Jimbo. You lied to us. Don't worry, though, we're used to
it coming from you and your fundy brethren.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Ray Talley
|Sub: just the fax
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:10:10
EID:b02d 20699940
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141d7cd
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 313e7342
04 Mar 96 00:28, Ray Talley wrote to Kenneth Cavness:
KC>> If English was good enough for Jesus, by Goat, it's good enough
KC>> for Mikey!
RT> Is it just me or has MH actually gotten more stupid?
So I'm not the only one who noticed?
RT> Or is it merely
RT> meaner?
Nahhh.. He just *tries* to be meaner. He fails, usually. Pretty funny to
watch, IMO.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:09:52
EID:c2e6 2069a120
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141e629
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org e98baa2e
08 Mar 96 17:27, Katherine Wintersnight wrote to David Worrell:
DW> SA>> chocolate pie with you when he gets it from Lynda...
DW>> He can have the whole damn thing. I've already said I'm not eating
DW>> anything she cooks. :)
KW> Coward.
That shit ain't a-gonna work either, sweet-cheeks. :)
You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male scum -
maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't phase those of
us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:43:23
EID:d81c 20699d60
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3141e075
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 13f2c9b4
07 Mar 96 13:19, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to Jim Germiquet:
TP> substance to those allegations, it STILL doesn't warrent running tanks
TP> thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
How many tanks were run through the residence, Parker?
TP> On what, other than UNSUBSTANTIATED allegations, do you base this
TP> belief; trust of govt? In any event, does it justify a TANK assault.
If "tanks" had "assaulted" the compound, none of the BD's would have survived
to testify, pinhead. You do know what an 120mm main gun does, don't you?
TP> weapons wounds (trial did not determine source), some from tank
TP> induced blunt forced trauma to the skull.
They shouldn't have tried to bash their heads against tanks then. Everybody
knows TOWs are more effective at stopping tanks than human skulls are. An
exception, of course, is your skull - it is dense enough to penetrate damn
near anything.
TP> One of the coronors, employed by govt for this case, expressed
TP> outrage, on a Maury Povich episode,
You use *Maury Povich* as a source? No wonder you're so fucked up.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/1 7 13 23 41 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Istambul paraphrased
|Date: 09 Mar 96 16:06:47
EID:3d7d 206980c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 31421169
REPLY: 1:352/266 313D25AC
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Michael and Masochistic were killing time yakking about Istambul paraphrased:
MM> Have you ever read the Blindmen of Istambul?
MH> No, I haven't. What is it?
MM> Well, with apologies to the source, I'll have to paraphrase, Try
MM> looking it up in a set of encyclopedias. I don't have the original
MM> available here at home. However I will post it for you when I locate
MM> it.
Here's I version a came across for you:
A number of disciples went to the Buddha and said, "Sir, there are living
here in Savatthi many wandering hermits and scholars who indulge in
constant dispute, some saying that the world is infinite and eternal and
others that it is finite and not eternal, some saying that the soul dies
with the body and others that it lives on forever, and so forth. What,
Sir, would you say concerning them?"
The Buddha answered, "Once upon a time there was a certain raja who called
to his servant and said, 'Come, good fellow, go and gather together in one
place all the men of Savatthi who were born blind... and show them an
elephant.' 'Very good, sire,' replied the servant, and he did as he was
told. He said to the blind men assembled there, 'Here is an elephant,' and
to one man he presented the head of the elephant, to another its ears, to
another a tusk, to another the trunk, the foot, back, tail, and tuft of
the tail, saying to each one that that was the elephant.
"When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them
and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me,
what sort of thing is an elephant?'
"Thereupon the men who were presented with the head answered, 'Sire, an
elephant is like a pot.' And the men who had observed the ear replied,
'An
elephant is like a winnowing basket.' Those who had been presented with
a
tusk said it was a ploughshare. Those who knew only the trunk said it was
a
plough; others said the body was a grainery; the foot, a pillar; the back,
a mortar; the tail, a pestle, the tuft of the tail, a brush.
"Then they began to quarrel, shouting, 'Yes it is!' 'No, it is not!' 'An
elephant is not that!' 'Yes, it's like that!' and so on, till they came
to
blows over the matter.
"Brethren, the raja was delighted with the scene.
"Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and
unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling,
and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus."
Then the Exalted One rendered this meaning by uttering this verse of
uplift,
O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.
Jainism and Buddhism. Udana 68-69: Parable
of the Blind Men and the Elephant
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... Celebrate Hannibal Day. Take an elephant to lunch.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Hymie
|Sub: Hebes
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:32:54
EID:839c 206a0400
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 140f9aac
REPLY: 1:123/610.0 3141022f
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
In a message to All, MC wrote:
H> @PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
H> @MSGID: 1:123/610.0 3141022f
H> Is this the "fundy kike" conferenece?
Not at all, Mark. In this echo...ALL fundies *noids are equally ignorant
and as much a target of reality. Yourself, included.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Tony Byers
|Sub: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:17:47
EID:fecb 206a0220
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 140f9aa8
REPLY: 1:352/266 314114E3
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Tony Byers wrote in a message to All:
TB> Place: Washington DC
TB> ****************
TB> Purpose: This is a true grassroots movement that all pagan peoples
TB> are invited to take part in, with the primary purpose being to show
TB> the world that we exist in large numbers. We are all responsible
TB> for our own path, but with a little work on everyone's part, those
TB> paths can cross in Washington DC USA on October 31st 1997.
Time to raise the drawspans around the Beltway again.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Ryan Shaw
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: #smoke
|Date: 10 Mar 96 09:40:42
EID:187e 206a4d00
MSGID: 1:152/67.0 142ea4a0
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31404861
CHRS: ibmpc 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8548
Mark Staal spewed forth the following Al Schroeder:
MS> ........Al, I heard, awhile back, that you were in #Smoke....You
MS> don't happen to know how to get there on the internet or have the
MS> correct address?
It is #holysmoke and it's at undernet.org, port 6660-6669 [6667 is usually
the best]. Evenings seem to be the best check in time. Oh, and you'll
need a irc client program to join us.
I look forward to seeing you, Jimbo. I've enjoyed your spew over in A_THEIST,
BTW.
rshaw@gladstone.uoregon.edu
---
* Origin: The Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues (1:152/67)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 152/8 20 67 153/800 920 157/586
SEEN-BY: 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907
SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
SEEN-BY: 270/104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20
SEEN-BY: 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25
SEEN-BY: 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225
SEEN-BY: 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114
SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 152/67 8 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: WHO'S WHO...
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:08:00
EID:f89a 20698900
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Lon S. Mabon <=-
JH> I would strongly advise the thermonuclear incineration of
JH> Grand Rapids in order to stop this plague before it spreads
JH> further.
For somebody who was too 'offended' to continue in this echo, he sure
does keep his hand in.
And has the nerve to wonder why we think he's such an asshole.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAA
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:12:00
EID:1ac4 20698980
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Kevin D. Mckenzie <=-
KDM>Here we go again. Gonna cast out the demons again, Steve?
KW> I do hope so. I so enjoyed the results the last time he did it.
I was going to say 'what results?'...and then I remembered that Steve
got bumped the last time he tried casting out demons. You're right, the
results were worth it.
... Smoreplay is what Smurfs do before Smucking.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Mark Craig
|To: All
|Sub: Wolves in Sheep Clothing
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:50:00
EID:23fa 206a5e40
PID: RA 2.02 143
MSGID: 1:123/610 56e15f78
Did you know that Ralph Reed, of the Establishment controlled
Christian Coalition, is quietly pushing for the nomination of Bob
Dole over Pat Buchanan?
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Adolph hitler
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:05:02
EID:542b 206978a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e02e2
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to SEAN MCCULLOUGH:
JG> SM> ALL negatives are established as true unless and until evidenced
JG> SM> false.
JG> SM> Now: how about some direct evidence for your claimed "Satan"
JG> SM> fellow??
JG>How do you prove the wind exists ? You can't see it or put it in a
JG>jar. You can "feel" it's prescence. You can see the "effect" it has
JG>on other things.
JG>That is the only way to describe proving the existence of God or
JG>Satan. They are like the wind. You know it exists by the effect it
JG>has.
No, you can see the wind. Care to try again?
JG>God is a "spirit" . What is a "spirit" ? The "spirit" of Christmas.
Sorry. This Christmas, my family lost a cat, a dog, and a friend.
Christmas is damn near dead.
JG>the "spirit" of peace, the "spirit" of friendship. Can you put it
JG>in a test tube or under a microscope ?
Yeah. I know what friendship feels like. I can define them all. I can
show you evidence of all of them. Do the same for God, please.
... I'm REALLY offended by people who get offended.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:27:03
EID:c6a2 20697b60
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e02f3
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ANDREW MASTEN spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
AM> DW> *After* you build a nice, big church building. *After* you pay
AM> DW> your minister to do what he should do out of the kindness of his
AM> DW> heart. *After* you make payments on your new car, the mortgage
AM> DW> on your pricey home, the payments on your credit cards, etc.
AM> DW> Got to take care of #1 first, right?
AM>
AM> Your just projecting your own nature into someone else.
Know of a large church that doesn't do this, boyo?
AM> AM> And we do it at a cost effectiveness that would put our
AM> AM> government to shame. Our church is supporting a ministry to
AM> AM> Russia.
AM>
AM> DW> Our government is feeding two-thirds of Russia. Did you have a
AM> DW> point to make?
AM>
AM> I'm talking about our welfare system that spends 80% on
AM> administrative costs and 20% actually gets in the hands of the
AM> recipients. Thats not cost effective.
Evidence, please.
... I don't care who you are, Fatso. Get those reindeer off my roof.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:49:04
EID:d2eb 20697e20
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0304
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to ANDREW MASTEN:
JG> AM> Thats a good point Jim. It's normal for intelligent man to
JG> AM> create intelligent things, like a computer. But how did
JG> AM> mechanistic imperson
JG>al processes create personal moral intelligent people?
JG>
JG> In the "scientific" explanation they leave out such things as in the
JG> "big bang" exactly "what" went bang and "why" did it go bang and
JG> "where" did it come from in the first place to go bang.
Let's see -- what: all the mater in the Universe. Why: Unknown (to
me). Where-- everywhere.
JG>Then they have this "life" mystery they can't explain. you have a
JG>bunch of amino acids, and all of a sudden one day they just decide to
JG>get together and become "alive" so they can evolve and go out and
JG>have beer and pizza together. Scientists set up a laboratory to try
JG>and simulate the conditions of primal earth. Excuse me but are they
JG>not themselves proving that an intelligence is needed to arrange
JG>these conditions.
Nope. All they did was put the amino acids there. Amino acids form by
themselves; they need no external help. And stop it with the quotes,
OK?
JG>And even then they cannot duplicate the process.
Want to bet? Self-replicating molecules have been made.
"The construction of polymers, long-chain molecules made of repeating
units of these essential building blocks, however, is a much more
difficult experimental problem. Polymerization reactions are generally
dehydrations, in which a molecule of water is lost in the formation of a
two-unit polymer. Dehydrating agents must be used to initiate
polymerization. The polymerization of amino acids to form long protein-
like molecules was accomplished through dry heating by a U.S.
investigator, S.W. Fox. The polyamino acids that are formed are not
random polymers and have some distinct catalytic activities. The
geophysical generality of dry heating and return to solution,
however, has been questioned. Long polymers of amino acids can also be
produced from hydrogen cyanide and anhydrous liquid ammonia. Some
evidence exists that nucleotide bases and sugars can be combined in the
presence of phosphates or cyanides under ultraviolet irradiation. Some
condensing agents such as cyanamide are efficiently made under simulated
primitive conditions. Despite the breakdown by water of molecular
intermediates, condensing agents are often quite effective in inducing
polymerization, and polymers of amino acids, sugars, and nucleotides
have all been made this way.
"A famous British scientist, J.D. Bernal, suggested that adsorption of
molecular intermediates on clays or other minerals may have concentrated
these intermediates. Such concentration could offset the tendency for
water to break down polymers of biological significance. Of special
interest is the possibility that such concentration matrices included
phosphates, for this would help explain how phosphorus could have been
incorporated preferentially into prebiological organic molecules at a
time when biological concentration mechanisms did not yet exist. Mineral
catalysis implies that organic synthesis could also occur in deep water
where ultraviolet light had been filtered out.
[ cuts by KDM]
"Imagine a primitive ocean filled with nucleotides and their phosphates
and appropriate mineral surfaces serving as catalysts. Even in the
absence of the appropriate enzyme it seems likely, although not yet
proved, that spontaneous assembly of nucleotide phosphates into
polynucleotides occurred. Once the first such polynucleotide was
produced, it may have served as a template for its own reproduction,
still of course in the absence of enzymes. As time went on there were
bound to be errors in replication. These would be inherited. A self-
replicating and mutable molecular system of polynucleotides, eventually
leading to a diverse population of such molecules, may have arisen in
this way. Alternatively, the primitive hereditary material may have
involved some other molecule altogether, but no concrete suggestion for
such a molecule has ever been proposed."
The Encyclopedia Britanica On-Line. And they are wrong, as self-
replicating polynuclitides have been observed. I'd get some better
quotes, but it's Spring Break right now.
JG>They can't even define what "life" is. You can have a live body and a
JG>dead body, side by side. What is the difference? Why is the live one
JG>living? What is this "life force" Where does it come from and where
JG>does it go?
Huh? "Life force?" What are you talking about?
JG>What IS the "strong nuclear force" ? In other words, what really
JG>holds or attempts to pull everything together ?
The strong nuclear force is what holds atoms together. It decreases as
R^2, so is only applicable in the atomic scale.
(Continued next message...)
... An opinion is what you have when you don't have any facts.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:53:06
EID:38aa 20697ea0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0326
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
DAN CEPPA spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
DC> ns>> God sent 'angles'? How did he know they
DC> ns>> were the 'right angles' to send?
DC> FR>> He hasn't a 'ray' of hope of answering that.
DC>
DC> KC> You really have crossed the line. This entire argument is
DC> KC> perpendicular to the original speaker's intent.
DC>
DC> DW> Et tu, Kenn?
DC>
DC>He is just off on a tangent. Has something to do with circles,
DC>as you may know.
DC>
DC>Care for a peice of Pi, chocolate of course!
Pi are not square. Pi are round. Cornbread are square.
... Do you know the WHOLE story?? Doesn't look like it.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Fof cult update, staal
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:56:07
EID:0e45 20697f00
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0337
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JUDITH BANDSMA spoke thusly to RYAN SHAW:
JB>-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Fredric Rice <=-
JB>
JB> RS> Is that the gay rights issue? If so, what the hell are you
JB> RS> talking about!? Everyone knows that faggots are half human
JB> RS> perverts. Geeesh.
JB>Yep, and once they get the fags into 'resettlement' camps you know
JB>who's next, don't you? Most likely intellectual, atheistic, college
JB>students.
Great. Well, there go my plans for becoming an eternal student. I'll
have to quit and . . . get a job or something.
... "Under every rock lurks a politician." -Aristophanes
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: fof update, staal
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:58:08
EID:3157 20697f40
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0348
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
KENNETH CAVNESS spoke thusly to STEVE WALLIS:
KC>Gah. I can understand missing a FEW homophones, but please take the
KC>following and keep it beside your computer:
KC>
KC>they're -- they are
KC>there -- a place, usually other than "here"
KC>their -- someone other than oneself owning something
KC>
KC>your -- the target's ownership of something
KC>you're -- you are
KC>
KC>here -- a place, usually where the speaker is at the
KC>moment hear -- to detect noises
I see you've made your aquantance with Wallis, echo laughingstock and
potential Fundy-of-the-Year. You missed his casting out of demons.
... 3 dreaded words: "hard disk failure."
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Robert Berndt
|Sub: Founding father beliefs
|Date: 09 Mar 96 16:20:09
EID:bfe7 20698280
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0359
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ROBERT BERNDT spoke thusly to ALL :
RB>On 02/07/96 at 00:20 STYX ALLUM posted to me the following quote,
RB>supposedly from George Washington:
RB>
RB>SA>> "The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian
RB>Doctrine"
RB>Since he did not post his reference, it is impossible to tell where
RB>he got the quote. He also posted me the following challenge:
RB>
RB>SA>> This is not a Christian nation. Don't just take my word for
RB>it. Take George Washington's.
RB>
RB>In researching the material, I discovered the following quotes from
RB>George Washington, which I am sure many of you will find very
RB>interesting:
I'm sure you'll find this interesting too: (apologies to others for
length):
An excerpt from Six Historic Americans By John E. Remsburg 1906
http://freethought.tamu.edu/freethought/john_remsburg/six_historic_ameri
cans/
George Washington
by John E. Remsburg
During the presidential campaign of 1880, the Christian Union made the
startling admission that, of the nineteen men who, up to that time, had
held the office of President of the United States, not one, with the
Possible exception of Washington, had ever been a member of a Christian
church.
Was Washington a church member? Was he in any sense a Christian? In
early life he held a formal adherence to the church of England, serving,
for a time, as a vestryman in the parish in which he resided. But this
being merely a temporal office did not necessitate his being a
communicant, nor even a believer in Christianity. In his maturer age he
was connected with no church. Washington, the young Virginia planter,
might, perhaps, with some degree of truthfulness, have been called a
Christian; Washington, the Soldier, statesman and sage, was not a
Christian, but a Deist.
This great man, like most men in public life, was reticent respecting
his religious views. This rendered a general knowledge of his real
belief impossible, and made it easy for zealous Christians to impose
upon the public mind and claim him for their faith. Whatever evidence of
his unbelief existed was, as far as possible, suppressed. Enough
remains, however, to prompt me to attempt the task of proving the truth
of the following propositions:
1.That Washington was not a Christian communicant.
2.That he was not a believer in the Christian religion.
Was Washington A Communicant?
Washington was not a communicant. This fact can be easily demonstrated.
A century ago it was the custom of all classes, irrespective of their
religious beliefs, to attend church. Washington, adhering to the custom,
attended. But when the administration of the sacrament took place,
instead of remaining and partaking of the Lord's Supper as a communicant
would have done, he invariably arose and retired from the church.
The closing years of his life, save the last two, were passed in
Philadelphia, he being then President of the United States. In addition
to his eight years' incumbency of the presidency, he was, during the
eight years of the Revolutionary war, and also during the six years that
elapsed between the Revolution and the establishment of the Federal
government, not only a frequent visitor in Philadelphia, but during a
considerable portion of the time a resident of that city. While there he
attended the Episcopal churches of which the Rev. William White and the
Rev. James Abercromble were rectors. In regard to his being a
communicant, no evidence can be so pertinent or so decisive as that of
his pastors.
Bishop White, the father of the Protestant Episcopal church of America,
is one of the most eminent names in church history. During a large
portion of the period covering nearly a quarter of a century,
Washington, with his wife, attended the churches in which Bishop White
officiated. In a letter dated Fredericksburg, Aug. 13, 1835, Colonel
Mercer sent Bishop White the following inquiry relative to this
question:
"I have a desire, my dear Sir, to know whether Gen. Washington was a
communicant of the Protestant Episcopal church, or whether he
occasionally went to the communion only, or if ever he did so at all.
... No authority can be so authentic and complete as yours on this
point."
To this inquiry Bishop White replied as follows:
(Continued next message...)
... Go soak your head, puny human.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Robert Berndt
|Sub: Founding father beliefs
|Date: 09 Mar 96 16:23:17
EID:bfe7 206982e0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e03e1
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
ROBERT BERNDT spoke thusly to ALL :
RB>Styx, the quotes I found are in direct contradiction to the one-liner
RB>you posted me. I did as you asked, and I have done the research and
RB>looked up the quotes for George Washington. But believe me, I also
RB>looked up material for the other persons you quoted from, namely
RB>Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John
RB>Adams, Thomas Paine, Abraham Lincoln, and Benjamin Franklin. There
RB>is substantial evidence that they had faith in God, as well as
RB>implemented their beliefs into our governmental foundation. I will
RB>be posting on them as well, just to make sure that your curiosity
RB>doesnt kill you.
A question: do you know what a Deist is? Most, if not all, of the
above, were deists. They believed in a god, yes, but not your god.
RB>Post your sources Styx, or it will be safe to assume that you made it
RB>up the quotes.
Well, you're getting one today. How many more do you want?
Oh, FYI, that quote from the Treaty of Tripoli may be fake, but it is
not Styx's fault for that. It's a long story, and I'm looking for the
place I originally read about it.
... I've got a mind like a steel trap: things wander in and get shredded
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 09 Mar 96 16:42:18
EID:597c 20698540
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e03f2
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KENNETH CAVNESS:
AS> KC> Take a deep fryer. Add a copious amount of your favourite brand
AS> KC> of cooking oil.
AS>
AS> KC> Now, take a can of chilled water and pour it directly onto the
AS>oil.
AS> KC> Enjoy!
AS>
AS> Blows up in your face, eh?
Not necessarily. Note that he said nothing about turning it on.
... *I* didn't do it, the *computer* did it!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: sharks
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:05:19
EID:25a0 206988a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0403
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
AL SCHROEDER spoke thusly to KENNETH CAVNESS:
AS> Your story reminds me of a local friend of mine. He used to be very
AS> fundamentalist, and a musician---he was in a warmup group for Amy
AS>Grant and Michael W. Smith, that crowd...but gay. And it was tearing
AS>him up that he felt it was a sin and yet was drawn to it. One night,
AS>he spoke to his minister about many things, and asked him, (he says
AS>the minister didn't know he was gay) "Do you think God would prefer
AS>a man dead...or gay?" The minister answered without reservation,
AS> "Gay." He spent a long night that night, struggling with suicide,
Ah . . . typo?
... "You argue too much." "No I don't."
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Tennessee commandments
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:08:20
EID:8d6b 20698900
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0414
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to RYAN SHAW:
JG>What's wrong with that ? As long as it isn't a law. What is wrong
JG>with encouraging people to post rules such as
JG>
JG>Thou shalt not kill
JG>Thou shalt not steal
JG>etc
JG>
JG>And then encouraging people to abide by them.
Because they are *Christian* laws, that's why. Especially "Thou shalt
remember the Sabbath and keep it wholly," and "Thou shalt have no Gods
before me." They are trying to force their faith on people who don't
want it.
... Macintosh error message: "Something went wrong, dude."
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Ryan Shaw
|Sub: The true nature of christ
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:10:21
EID:c051 20698940
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0425
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
RYAN SHAW spoke thusly to ALL :
RS>After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that most if not
RS>all Christians are self-centered son of a bitches. It would seem to
RS>me that they do not worship their god for the sake and `glory' of the
RS>action, but rather they're attempting to save their own asses from
RS>eternal hellfire and such.
I'd disagree. Some are afraid of death, yes. But to categorize most or
all of them this way is a bit . . . unfair.
... Any bad habit is already too ingrained for me to break.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: They're at it again
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:12:22
EID:6063 20698980
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0436
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
DAVID WORRELL spoke thusly to JUDITH BANDSMA:
DW>05 Mar 96 08:23, Judith Bandsma wrote to J.j. Hitt:
DW>
DW> WB>> Regards Consulting Moderator.
DW>
DW>How many damned moder
DW>ators do they have over there now, anyway?
10 or so, I think. Hell, I have problems figuring out who the Moderator
is. I imagine the Fido gods are going to have to straighten this one
out.
... General failure reading drive B:... try to rent the movie?
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
* Origin: PC-Ohio PCBoard * Cleveland, OH * 216-381-3320 (1:157/200)
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Us bans abortionspeak on
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:19:23
EID:b462 20698a60
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0447
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
TL> DW> Exactly. The Christians believe in a God without any real
TL> DW> evidence whatsoever. You believe in the malicious intent of
TL> DW> the government without any real evidence whatsoever.
TL>
TL>Censorship being only the most recent UN-real evedence.
Note the word malicious, please.
TL> TP> you know, what you're posting on and the actual THREAD of this
TL> TP> conversation.
TL>
TL> DW> I thought you had been here long enough to realize that none
TL> DW> of us really give a shit what the thread of any given
TL> DW> conversation is.
TL>
TL>Comes the off-planet announcement from Worrell's World.
And what? His point is valid.
TL>Do you actually HAVE an opinion on the AbortionSpeak ban?
Yeah. It sucks and I'm not going to pay in attention to it or any of
the other laws of the CDA.
... All that glitters has a high refractive index.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 09 Mar 96 17:22:24
EID:38c0 20698ac0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0458
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
J.J. HITT spoke thusly to FREDRIC RICE:
JH> The OKC bombing was April 19, 1995.
JH>
JH> April 19th is the date to watch.
JH>
JH> I'm still looking for a good chronology of the Randy Weaver - Ruby
JH> Ridge fiasco, but it was October 1993.
There was one in . . . Newsweek, I think it was, a few months ago.
... Coming soon! Naked Gun 4 3/4 - Nordberg Walks!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: All
|Sub: The treaty of tripoli
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:48:25
EID:12a3 20699e00
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e0469
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
From the alt.atheism FAQ:
"The USA is not a Christian nation/state
'Is it true that George Washington said that the United States is not
in any sense founded upon the Christian religion?'
No. The quotation often given is in fact from Article XI of the 1797
Treaty of Tripoli (8 Stat 154, Treaty Series 358):
Article 11
As the government of the United States of America is not in any
sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no
character or enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of
Musselmen, -- and as the said States never have entered into any war
or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by
the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall
ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two
countries.
The text may be found in the Congressional Record or in treaty
collections such as Charles Bevans' "Treaties and Other International
Agreements of the United States of America 1776-1949", vol. 11 (pp.
1070-1080).
The English text of the Treaty of Tripoli was approved by the U.S.
Senate on June 7, 1797 and ratified by President John Adams on June
10, 1797. It was recently discovered that the Arabic version of the
treaty not only lacks the quotation, it lacks Article XI altogether.
The person who translated the Arabic to English was Joel Barlow,
Consul General at Algiers, a close friend of Thomas Paine -- and an
opponent of Christianity. It is possible that Barlow made up Article
XI, but since there is no Arabic version of that article to be found,
it's hard to say.
In 1806 a new Treaty of Tripoli was ratified which no longer contained
the quotation."
My apologies for dispelling such a useful myth, but I felt it was
necessary to post this. Before some of you jump for joy, however, I
must also post this, from the same source:
"The USA is a Christian nation/state
'Because of the religious beliefs of the founding fathers, shouldn't
the United States be considered a Christian nation?'
Based upon the writings of several important founding fathers, it is
clear that they never intended the US to be a Christian nation. Here
are some quotes; there are many more.
'What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual
tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they
have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no
instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the
people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found
an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.' -- James
Madison, 'A Memorial and Remonstrance', 1785.
'I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal
example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has
preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of
grief has produced!' -- John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
'History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders
will always avail themselves for their own purpose. ' -- Thomas
Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813.
'I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father,
expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is
even infinitely above it.' -- Benjamin Franklin, from 'Articles of
Belief and Acts of Religion', Nov. 20, 1728."
If anyone wants more evidence of the Founding Father's non-theism (most
were deists), I can provide it, as I have to Robert Berndt.
... "What's the matter, Col. Sanders? CHICKEN?!" - Dark Helmet
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco rememberance
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:57:26
EID:2735 2069a720
MSGID: 1:157/200 6a0e047a
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
TERRY LIBERTY-PARKER spoke thusly to FREDRIC RICE:
TL> FR> unsalted nuts to buy ammunition for such a venture. Just
TL> FR> think about it! These unsalted nuts take over a National
TL> FR> Guard Armory and they can really dig in and stay put,
TL> FR> safeguarding American Liberty.
TL>
TL>You boys look sooo cute.... exposing your biases and jacking each
TL>other off in public like this.....
Why? I'm with Fred. If these nuts really feel like taking
on the government, I'll enjoy watching. Anyone can bomb. It takes real
balls (and stupidity) to take on the Armed Forces.
... QED . . . NOT!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:32:56
EID:7db8 206a0c00
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
JB> Some things, Annette, are SO wrong that they don't take agonizing over.
JB> Ten Boom's writings have struck me as someone who did the right thing,
JB> eventually. But they have an undertone of reluctance.
Really I think that was her point too..the reluctance I mean. She made
it
very clear that SHE was no saint. That the things she did were because
the
Spirit encouraged her. She was not perfect and I like the fact that she
knew it. I think that we worship people a lot of the time instead of
worshipping God. She never felt worthy of that kind of thing. At least
that is the impression I have from her writing. I usually do the right
thing......eventually. It takes the moving of the spirit in my heart most
of the time to get to the place where I am doing what I believe is God's
will. I think that life is and should be a struggle. If we always KNOW
how
can we be sure. I believe it is necessary to question.
JB> Pake was a very religious man. Dutch Reformed. He always said that there
ar
JB> some things that are SO wrong that there is no question about them being
ev
JB> And that you fight the devil with any means possible. Had he been caught,
JB> Pake would have died smiling, knowing that he did his best.
I agree here too. I guess I don't mean what I said to be a blanket
on
every aspect of EVERY thing. Sigh. I find it hard to vocalize exactly
what
I mean at times. Your grandfather sounds like a wonderful person to have
known.
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
* Origin: If you can't Lay em, Slay em! - Freya (1:114/252)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:39:23
EID:f58f 206a44e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 3142f9de
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A438B
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
All and Michael were killing time yakking about drool game:
MH> Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin. So
MH> I'm going to liven it up with a little game.
MH> I've finally set up a twit filter, something I resisted for two years
MH> because I tried to believe that anyone could have something
MH> worthwhile to say once in a while. But as my patience began to wear,
I
MH> decided I'd rather spend one hour a night having interesting exchanges
MH> than three hours a night wading through drool to get the occasional
MH> worthwhile questions. And I observed that the bulk of the drool was
MH> coming consistently from the same few people.
MH> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
MH> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David
MH> Worrell.
MH> The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of
MH> non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my
MH> way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at
MH> least one month, possibly longer.
MH> No clues, though. The person in question was picked at random, with
MH> all names in the running except for Boni Hitch and Pam Gray, who don't
MH> seem to be in the loop. Could be anyone, other than them or the charter
MH> twits.
MH> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and
MH> win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at
MH> least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
(Giggle) I admire you, Mike -- you say you don't want to see the drool,
so
you publicly state the one thing GUARANTEED to garder "droolish" posts from
people who have probably never written to you before.
What are you trying to do? Cause Di's Cafe to choke under the weight of
Holysmoke posts before you leave?
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "My wife, doctor?" "No, your wife patient."
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Steve Rose
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 10 Mar 96 11:19:44
EID:a353 206a5a60
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 140f9aae
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 2289b39d
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Styx Allum wrote in a message to Jim Staal:
> FR> You may not leave until _I_ say you may.
> Does that mean I have to come back???
SA> No, because you obviously never left.
Sure speaks volumes about the word of a fundy.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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PATH: 109/601 104 17 13/25 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Preston Simpson
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:31:37
EID:c222 206a9be0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31437468
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh J.J. Hitt dinosaurs? wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> Okay. Just for gags, where's your reference? Not that I'm
PS> doubting you; it sounds perfectly plausible.
JH> It sounds perfectly rediculous.
Remember my science education (i.e. none to speak of). I'm ignorant of
many things and I admit it, while trying to fix that little fault.
JH> C-14 isn't "Old" carbon.
JH> If anything, it's "New" and has a limited lifetime.
A half-life of 5700 and change years.
... "I turned him into a raven and he flew out the window." -- Joseph
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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PATH: 123/318 305 1 270/101 218/801
|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 11 Mar 96 12:28:29
EID:f392 206b6380
MSGID: 1:123/67 31441c89
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A438B
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
07 Mar 96 23:01, quoting Michael Hardy to All:
MH> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
MH> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David
MH> Worrell.
Coward.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: Sheets Inc. ~Washed...starched...folded~ (1:123/67)
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PATH: 123/67 1 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: #smoke
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:22:25
EID:6026 2069b2c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314204e3
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31404861
Which of the various Staal personae is in charge of the neuron tonight?
08 Mar 96 14:38, Mark Staal wrote to Al Schroeder:
MS> ........Al, I heard, awhile back, that you were in #Smoke....You
MS> don't
MS> happen to know how to get there on the internet or have the correct
MS> address?
It takes a brain, Jim. That leaves you right the hell out, doesn't it? Wilbur
too, for that matter.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:17:38
EID:9c62 2069b220
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420403
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 2286404f
08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>> God is limited
DW>> Really? You do realize you are directly contravening 2000 years
DW>> of Christian thought here, don't you? What makes your opinion
DW>> more valid than that of all those who have gone before you?
JG> Do you always snatch three words out of a three HUNDRED word message
When those three words are in direct contravention of what damn near every
other Christian in the world claims, yes.
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited.
That's not what you said, and is irrelevant anyway. He is still omnipotent,
no matter what he chooses.
JG> By allowing us to have free will,
.... God is letting children starve to death all over the world. Some God
you've got there.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:59:36
EID:721a 2069b760
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420d89
07 Mar 96 09:34, Norbert Sykes wrote to Jim Germiquet:
NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was an
NS> actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How cruel!
I'd never thought of that. :-)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 23:00:46
EID:59fc 2069b800
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420dd0
07 Mar 96 09:38, Norbert Sykes wrote to Jim Germiquet:
EJ>> 1) he married his wife after she was impregnated with the
EJ>> firstborn child 2) his latest deal formed a for-profit
EJ>> organization (IFE, owner Robertson has no training in divinity
EJ>> instruction, despite having attended Yale. Pat was converted by
EJ>> an evangelical minister and then proceeded to announce "his
EJ>> calling". 5) The first station Pat Robertson grabbed was
EJ>> flim-flam of a station owner who was strapped of cash and wanting
EJ>> out of a television ownership. 6) Who are some of Pat "flock" and
EJ>> there will be a link to Robertson.
JG>> Your so called "dirt" didn't impress me. In fact it makes him
NS> Excuse me, but what happened to the end of number 2, the beginning
NS> of number 4, and all of number 3? Are you altering quotes?
In all fairness, the reformatting in this case might be caused by his mail
reader.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:25:02
EID:3096 2069b320
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314205cf
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 22864048
08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to Rena Mcgee:
JG> seperation from god. Now there is still goodness in the world. When
JG> the time comes that all gods influence is removed , you will have hate
JG> and greed and selfishness and anger that is not tempered with
JG> kindness, love and patience.
Are you making the claim that people that do not believe in God are not
capable of kindness, love, and patience?
JG> Look at a computer in everything it does, it only really has 2 choices
JG> at a time , on or off. binary.
Are we computers, Jim? Would you say a computer has free will? No? Then
why do you say we have free will when we're only capable of 2 choices?
JG> carrot or stick?
Does the word "extortion" mean anything to you, dipshit?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:28:03
EID:6ea0 2069b380
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420681
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 22864050
08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to Fredric Rice:
jg>> If you mean where did God come from , then my answer can
jg>> be found in the law of the conservation of energy.
FR>> That's been debunked hundreds of times in this very forum and was
FR>> pretty much debunked when first claimed hundreds of years ago.
FR>> It ignores several facts entirely and doesn't address the
FR>> question.
JG> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from. tell me
JG> WHAT went "bang" tell me WHAT made it go "bang".
Quantum fluctuations. You do know how to read, right?
JG> Oh yeah you will say
JG> it all came out of "nothingness". Then I will say my god came
JG> out of "nothingness".
Occam's Razor removes the need for your God, junior, unless you can come
up with some evidence.
JG> My god is YOUR "big bang". And you have about as
JG> much proof of where your "big bang" came from as I have of where
JG> "god" came from.
We have never asked you for proof, dipshit.
JG> You little religion is also based on faith.
What religion would that be?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:30:24
EID:6ea0 2069b3c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420702
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 22864050
08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to Fredric Rice:
JG> Why would I ever want to talk about "carbon dating" I don't argue
JG> about silly things like the "age of the universe" or "evolution".
JG> These are all just things created by god that scientists run around
JG> discovering. "Oh look over hear, another dinosaur bone" "Hey look I
JG> found another planet, heck it looks like it might be 6 billion years
JG> old, quick hand me a slide rule so I can figure this out. We may have
JG> to change our estimate of the age of the universe". Enjoy.
That's it, li'l fundy, revel in your ignorance. Wallow in your self-imposed
stupidity.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:33:45
EID:5b60 2069b420
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420766
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 2286404c
08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to J.J. Hitt:
KW>>> 9-SEXUAL MANIPULATION: of members by leader(s);
KW>>> amount of control over sex
KW>>> lives of members. 9._________0___
JG>> My religion does not control the sex lives of members.
JH>> You got a lot of homersectionals in your religion?
JG> Homersectionals ? Sounds like some kind of modular furniture :-)
Do you have a lot of homosexuals in your religion?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:55:09
EID:6922 2069b6e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420ca8
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A438B
07 Mar 96 23:01, Michael Hardy wrote to All:
MH> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
MH> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David
MH> Worrell.
I'm in good company.
MH> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and
MH> win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at
MH> least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
I'll give $20 to whoever makes Mikey leave for a month.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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PATH: 3615/41 1 7 270/101 218/801
|From: David Worrell
|To: Coridon Henshaw
|Sub: FAQ quote?
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:35:00
EID:41ac 2069b460
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314207cd
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 2286404d
In case you missed it...
08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to J.J. Hitt:
KW>>> 8-POLITICAL POWER: amount of external political
KW>>> influence desired or obtained. 8._______0_____
JG>> My religion is not of this world.
JH>> You're a Martian?
JG> It's a saying of Jesus. But who knows ? Could mars be a spiritual
JG> planet ? Some say Jupiter is.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:39:43
EID:8dbd 2069b4e0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314208eb
08 Mar 96 22:29, Annette Spence wrote to Karen Davis:
AS> I would recommend Josh Mcdowell as a good christian perspective on
AS> this kind of logic argument...
Remember when you though Annette was a "good" xtian?
I just had to rub your nose in it. :)
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: legislation
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:57:20
EID:195e 2069b720
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420d09
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A4386
07 Mar 96 20:32, Michael Hardy wrote to Tom Hart:
TH>> Have you called/written to your gov't reps. yet to tell them you
TH>> do not want religion legislated and to repleal the current
TH>> religious legislation?
MH> Like the religion-based laws against stealing other peoples'
MH> property? No, I don't think we should repeal those laws.
Are you claiming Hammurabi was a god, Mikey? So much for you being a Christian.
Would someone *not* in Mikey's twit filter please forward this to him? Thanks.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:50:15
EID:589a 2069b640
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420b7a
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 22864052
08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to Fredric Rice:
FR>> "Now therefore kill every male among the little
FR>> ones, and kill every woman who hath known man by
FR>> lying with him. But all the women children, that have
FR>> not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for
FR>> yourselves."
jg>> Actually this sounds quite HUMANE. Think about it. No point
jg>> having all those orphaned children and widows around after
jg>> their hubbys have died in the war.
FR>> How about I kill you and then your family, Jim? And kidnap your
FR>> children to rape them repeatedly as slaves?
FR>> What's that? You don't _like_ that idea? Well then. Guess you
FR>> really fuck up with that comment lovingly and faithfully
FR>> reproduced above, huh?
JG> Nope I don't like that idea, and I don't like the idea of them doing
JG> it back then. I said that tongue in cheek mouth :-)>, but in reality too many people apply todays standards to
JG> situations of a far different time , place and people.
Does morality change, Jim? I trust you would say that it is not a good thing
to slaughter women and children out of hand today. Was it a good thing in
the time of the verse quoted above? Your God did order it to be done, after
all, didn't he? Is God capable of an act that is not good?
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Your father
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:52:46
EID:50f2 2069b680
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31420bcb
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31404863
08 Mar 96 14:46, Mark Staal wrote to Katherine Wintersnight:
KW>> My condolences on the death of your father.
MS> I'm almost afraid to say this now, forseeing alot of flack for
MS> it but, Thank you, It is much appreciated. from you but from OTHERS on smoke... and they know who they are>
We're not like you, Jim. While I don't feel especially bad for you, I see
no reason to hit you on this subject. Maybe you can learn from our example,
but I doubt it.
---
* Origin: At any time, at any place, our snipers can drop you (1:3615/41.11)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Annette Spence
|To: Lou Richardson
|Sub: Re: the true nature of christ
|Date: 10 Mar 96 15:23:27
EID:b4cb 206a7ae0
TID: FastEcho 1.45 8010
LR> RS>After much pondering I have come to the conclusion that most if not
all
LR> RS>Christians are self-centered son of a bitches. It would seem to
me that
LR> ^^^
LR> Should be "sons" to be in agreement with "Christians"....
plus as a woman I think you would have to call me an actual bitch, not a
son
of one.
--- Borelli Balda Sleq
* Origin: If you can't Lay em, Slay em! - Freya (1:114/252)
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|From: Larry Craig
|To: All
|Sub: False Christians
|Date: 10 Mar 96 21:57:20
EID:6c8b 206aaf20
MSGID: 1:123/319.0 31439692
PID: BWRA 3.02 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7949
Why is the Christian Coalition supporting Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan?
Bogus Bob is a 33rd. degree Mason, and Pat Robertson said - in his book
-
that the upper echelons of the "lodge" were Luciferians. And didn't Dole
say that his administration would be inclusive of homosexuals (an
abomination to God).
... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning? (1:123/319)
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:07:01
EID:4ddb 206a68e0
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 230b469e
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A4385
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
> TH> So your God is a guess. Please *_NEVER_* pass your guess as fact.
>
> No, God is not a "guess." I've been posting here for two years and I
> have no patience left for people who score points by twisting my words.
> If you have any genuine interest in a dialogue, know that that's the
> fastest way to be added to my rapidly growing twit filter. If you have
> no interest in an open dialogue, then I don't want to waste my time
> with you anyway.
*He* may not be interested in open dialog, but you never did answer the
question. As a non-Christian, I am fascinated by the process Christians
of all flavors use to deduce what is allegorical verses literal in the Bible.
Since there are over 3000 denominations of Christianity across the world,
there clearly is no singular consensus on the issue. But regardless, when
I come across a Christian who makes the claim (implicitly or explicitly)
that they have some insight that lets them make this deduction, I want to
know what it is.
Please provide the details we need to understand your claim.
> No, it simply means that you aren't willing to make any effort to
> understand it. Rather than seeking God's truth with an open mind and
> honest heart, you're demanding God deliver himself to you on a platter
> -- as if you're doing HIM some kind of big favor.
In a sense, that appears to be exactly the case.
Even assuming a purely figurative interpretation of your Bible, we can assume
the god(s) you worship are omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. From
a reading of the Old Testament, we can assume your god can not only snap
his fingers and create life, but he can also wink his eye and destroy that
life.
Your god(s) have power that goes beyond our comprehension. Your god(s) know
everything that has happened, and everything that will happen. Your god(s)
create and destroy with a purpose that is private to themselves. Perhaps
they were bored. Perhaps they had some greater purpose. Who knows?
And here's the incredible part-- the part that *really* requires faith.
Here we have your god(s) with such incredible power requiring that we worship
them. The chapter of Genesis clearly places mankind separate from all other
life on the planet, and it appears the reason for this is because we have
the means to worship the god(s) that created us.
Imagine that! We are beings that your god(s) could (and have) squash like
flies. Yet, these amazingly incredibly powerful god(s) demand we worship
them. The punishment for not worshipping? Eternal damnation in an allegorical
or literal lake of fire.
Gosh, let's put it together. A group of beings beyond our comprehension
somehow needs humanity to worship them. If we don't, we don't get eternal
life after expiry. If we do, we spend eternity on a cloud sipping nectar
and listening to porcine cherubs strum on harps.
In retrospect, Genesis 1:26 pretty much covers this. Man is created in
the image of your god(s). Man has plenty of faults as well as some virtues.
I guess this means that your god(s) are the same way. Indeed, it would
appear that your god(s) suffer from one of the worst human faults-- vainity.
Your god(s) are so vain that they would actually require their creation
worship them! In this way, it is indeed a favor for us to worship your
god(s).
There is that damn determinism aspect to this too. If your god(s) are worthy
of the title, they know the outcome of everything. Outside my apartment
is a large, slick, icy patch. Your god(s) supposedly know if I will walk
on it and slip on that patch, but I don't. To them, the outcome is already
known, and I merely have the illusion of chance. Talk of deathbed conversions
of atheists is a popular device used by some Christians, and the way some
talk, they expect me to gasp with my last breath a plea to your god(s).
To your god(s), if they are worthy of that title, the fact that I will or
won't offer them such a deathbed conversion is already known. To me, it
is merely the illusion of choice.
Don't let my arrogance on this subject serve as an excuse for not addressing
the issues. If I am wrong, show me why. If the best you can offer is that
I need faith, then use your faith to show me why. If you can't, then you
appear to have no function in this forum.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Christian? God demands you kill me. Write for details! (1:2613/
102)
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:19:02
EID:f48c 206a6a60
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 230b469f
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893A438B
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
> The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of
> non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my
> way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at least
> one month, possibly longer.
I do thank you for so vividly illustrating one of the points you have made.
You said that we all fall short of the grace of your god(s). I would think
this inane "game" you are playing is an illustration of this fall from grace.
> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and win
> $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at least
> 30 days Mickey-free.
For example, this display of vainity presumes that your presence here in
this conference is of such importance that you leaving it would matter.
The last time I checked, hubris was not something to be proudly displayed,
but I guess it takes all kinds, Michael.
Personally, I visit this conference when it suits me. I read (and dismiss)
most of your messages when I'm here. Speaking only for myself, if someone
does manage to win your "game," then your posts disappearing for 30 days
won't raise any emotion in me other than humor. It will be another example
of a Christian who can't defend his faith self-destructing and pretending
his words matter to anyone.
Your presentations of Christianity certainly don't resonate in me, and I
doubt they do for the vast majority of non-Christians here. Go away for
30 days Michael, and the only difference in my life will be a different
picture on the calendar.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Christian? God demands you kill me. Write for details! (1:2613/102)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:34:03
EID:5f78 206a6c40
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 230b46a0
REPLY: 3:711/933 3140ca0a
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
> There is no such list because there is no contradiction.
> Those apparent contradictions are where we lack faith (or
> understanding). And there are books by unbelievers which
> specialize in these. Some of these can appear quite bizarre
> and absurd.
About as bizarre and absurd as when you review the mythology of other faiths.
I'm sure when you read about the charming Greek notion that the world was
supported on the back of an infinite column of turtles, you smiled, secure
in your faith. That same kind of feeling is the one I feel when you express
your Christian mythos.
Also, it isn't very fair to say there are no contradictions because even
if we stay completely within the body of those who claim to be Christian
(such as yourself), there are over 3000 denominations across the world.
Many of these have different interpretations of the same scripture that
you read, and many of them would engage in the same sort of pedantic debate
style you do when discussing them.
You can justifiably state that within a particular denomination of *any*
religion, that contradictions simply don't exist. If I define my world
as being one where lime Jello has wings and can fly around the room, then
even the fact that Jello doesn't fly won't contradict anything. Likewise,
if you define a world where inconsistencies in scripture simply don't exist
as a matter of faith, then yes, you can indeed claim there are no inconsistencies.
My flying lime Jello and your assertion that there are no inconsistencies
are on the same level to those outside our faiths. But here is where we
differ.
If I honestly believed something, I would do my best to express my faith
in terms that others outside my faith could understand. You don't seem
to make that effort. Instead, you sit at your keyboard and offer us nothing
but an expression of your faith, hoping that there is some resonance in
others. Of course, there is none-- especially in a forum such as this.
What is your purpose in this forum? How do your words meet your purpose?
Care to answer?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Christian? God demands you kill me. Write for details! (1:2613/102)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:16
EID:5b9a 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d66
-=> Quoting Terry Liberty-parker to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Hindsight is 20/20 , What would you have said, if the
JG> authorities had calmly waited outside while all the women
JG> and children were raped and killed and then the men
JG> committed suicide ?
TL> That scenario is hysterical fantasy; and STILL would not justify
TL> running a tank thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
Excuse me, but I saw that part on TV and they did not "run a tank thru
a residence " They knocked down a wall of a building full of "armed"
people using women and children as a "shield". They had no way of knowing
that knocking down that wall would cause the place to go up in flames.
I am not interested in "debates" where people distort the facts as you
have done here to try and win a "point" for their side.
JG> Again I am not sure of the exact details, or what options
JG> were tried and exhausted. Were authorities allowed entrance
JG> to the farm to make sure that reports of child endangerment
JG> were not true?
TL> State of Texas, Child Protective Services, investigated those
TL> allegations repeatedly and came up BLANK. Had they discovered
TL> substance to those allegations, it STILL doesn't warrent running tanks
TL> thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
And the Child Protection Services advocate the stockpiling of guns
and ammunition around children ? They advocate the obvious fire and
safety hazards that caused that building to burst into flames. And they
advocate the murder and suicide plot those children ended up in?
JG> Certainly fire regulations and flammable liquid regulations
JG> were not being followed.
TL> There are no such 'regulattions' in rural Texas and they resorted to
TL> those when govt cut their utilities.
Okay, thank you for that bit of information. As I said I am not aware of
all of the factors involved in this situation. It is all the "little"
details that make up the entire story. As such there may be many more
details, like for instance , why the govt cut their utilities. Also
can you justify the adults who were responsible for these children,
allowing these children to die, simply because of their standoff with the
government ? Still sounds like a "hostage" situation to me. I would think
the individuals the police were seeking would have given themselves up to
save the children in indeed they were such "innocent" people.
JG> It's easy for you to sit in your "easy" chair and judge after
JG> the fact.
TL> I came up out of my 'easy' chair when I saw the tank assault on live
TL> national TV. I really went ballistic when GOVT agents testified, at
TL> the trial of surviving Branch Davidians, that the official stratagy
was
TL> to demolish the residence in an effort to drive the occupants out.
You never got out of your easy chair at all, because you were not the
one responsible for making that decision at the time. You are not the
one who would have taken the flack if you had of just sat back while
these children were raped or murdered in a murder suicide situation.
And as much as "you" think this was all just a big army attacking a simple
family "sitting down for thanksgiving dinner", I kind of doubt, that was
the situation here.
TL> Imagine the environment created in that residence by OUR employees.
TL> The smoke induced blinding, from CS gas and fire, combined with
TL> collapsing structural supports and stairs, to disorient the occupants
TL> thus trapping them.
TL> Some died from smoke inhalation, some from live burning, some from
TL> weapons wounds (trial did not determine source), some from tank induced
TL> blunt forced trauma to the skull.
I agree, that is a terrible picture. But so is the sight of bodies blown
to bits by a suicide bomber. So was the sight of the Jonestown massacre.
It does not tell us how this all came about. And why these maniacs chose
armed resistance with women and children, rather than surrendering to the
authorities. Don't make these people sound like "law abiding citizens".
Law
abiding citizens have no need to fear legal repercussions of surrendering
to the proper authorities.
TL> One of the coronors, employed by govt for this case, expressed
TL> outrage, on a Maury Povich episode, over govt's initial claim (since
TL> recanted) that the children's blunt force trauma to the head induced
TL> deaths were inflicted by Davidian parents as mercy killing rather than
TL> being a result of the tanks 'penetrating a room's length or more.'
Obviously the tanks use is questionable at all and the implementation
of it not well planned. But what were the alternatives when you want
immediate access to the building, because you feel a murder suicide could
take place within moments.
TL> Our govt agent employees gassed the Davidians and then brought their
TL> house down on top of them.
JG> You were not the one faced with making the decision at the
JG> time.
TL> I was not elected, appointed, hired or payed to devise an appropriate
TL> police responce; we employ professionals to allegedly do that. But,
as
TL> a citizen, I, and you, ARE responsible for an action by our employees
TL> that was OBVIOUSLY not an appropriate remdy.
TL> NOTHING done by Branch Davidians justified running tanks thru a
TL> residence occupied by men, women and children.
I tend to agree that this was a bad move, and that the people responsible
should lose their jobs for not finding a better method of resolving the
situation. Unless you can prove otherwise however, I will give them the
benefit of a doubt that they felt that a murder suicide similar to the
Jimmy Jones thing was an immediate possibility. And based on the "armed"
resistance to law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties.
... Taglines are irrelevant. You will be assimilated into the Blue Wave.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: "No True Christian..."
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:17
EID:c20b 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d67
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Excuse me but if you will check the message you are replying to,
JG> you will see he is making a distinction between "true"
JG> christians and people who just "call themselves" christians.
JG> So a true Christian is one who says " I am not going to
JG> participate in these Crusades because it is against the
JG> teachings of Christ". The ones who participate in something
JG> that goes against the teachings of christ might CLAIM they
MG> "True Americans are those that will not join in voting for that commie
MG> Clinton and vote for whoever the Republicans put up."
MG> Does this look anything like your statement above? Does it make any
MG> more sense?
1) No it does not look like my statement at all.
2) It does not make as much sense as my statement because I go into detail
to explain "my" reasoning as to how a "true christian" would behave IMHO.
On the other hand you do no explaining at all into why you think "true
Americans" would not vote for Clinton.
On another note, If Clinton would say I propose lower taxes, then you could
say "true Clintonians , would not carry banners saying "raise
the taxes".
In your example the erroneous expression would be "true religious people
, would not kill.
Because some religions do advocate killing. The teachings of Christ do not.
IMHO.
I hope you are trying to understand the concepts in the above and not just
looking for any kind of typo or error in it to dismiss it.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:18
EID:098b 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d68
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> How very true. God is a spirit. But his spirit does speak to the
JG> spirits of men and then men right down what the spirit of god is
JG> saying to them.
MG> Did you forget to preent your evidence for spirits?
Spirit ...dictionary def. 1) the incorporeal part of human beings.
2) a supernatural being incorporlal being, as a ghost. 3)the divine
influence working in th human heart. 4)holy spirit 5)feelings or mood.
6) vigor and courage 7)an individual as characterised by disposition: "a
few brave spirits" 8)a dominant tendency or feeling. 9)vigorous sense
of membership :college spirit 10)the true meaning or intent: the true
meaning of the law. 11)liquor 12) carry off mysteriously or secretly.
Now right off the bat, I question the interpretation of the statement,
God is a "spirit". The foremost quality that I give God above all else
is TRUTH. Therefore , to me God is 10) The TRUE meaning or intent.
Jesus berated the sadducees and pharisees because while they followed
the exact letter of the laws of moses, they did not follow the intent of
those laws, in other words they misinterpreted the words to of the law to
suit their own purposes instead of interpreting them to their true intent.
The laws of moses were what moses's God inspired him to tell the people.
Which brings us to definition 3) the divine influence working in the human
heart. This of course with the definition of "divine" can lead us into a
circular definition of God and Spirit.
What you want is proof of a "physical" God, and I have to emphasize that
even the bible says God is a "spirit". Now of course the New testament
says this. In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the
word was god and the word BECAME FLESH and dwelt among men.
Here is your physical evidence of "God". But again this is but a physical
"manifestation" of God. The fullness of god is in the SPIRIT form.
Now we are back to the 10) definition. Jesus said "I am the way the TRUTH
and the life". Reread those definitions of spirit in the light of the
"truth" apply def 6, 7, 8 and 9 for example and end up with something like
this . A dominant tendency or feeling or mood of the TRUTH including
vigor and courage Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Not so. God "chooses" this limitation. He is not "bound" by it.
JG> He has designed the universe to work this way. God has GIVEN man
JG> freedom of choice.
MB> So he, of his own "free will" chooses a way that will cause
MB> untold pain to billions of human beings, not to mention the
MB> pain that way has caused other life forms. Nice guy, your
MB> god. But I don't think much of his choices.
Perception , perception , perception. You CHOOSE to perceive it in
a negative way. It is like jogging. WHat a stupid thing to do. It
causes you discomfort and pain, you run around in a big circle and
end up in the place you started.
But there ARE benefits of jogging, in terms of health and growth and
even spiritual and emotional well being.
Yes allowing us to CHOOSE what we do is going to produce "growing pains",
but without growing pains you won't grow. The lifespan of a man is NOTHING
in terms of eternity,The 2 million years we have been growing is also
nothing in terms of eternity. Just as that 20 minutes of jogging is nothing
in terms of the years of benefits you can recieve by doing it.
JG> If you love something set it free
JG> If it comes back to you it is yours
JG> If it doesn't it never was.
JG> In order to LOVE god, we have to be free to NOT love god.
JG> Would you like a husband that loved you because he HAD to
JG> or loved you because he CHOSE to?
MB> But that isn't the choice we're talking about. We're talking
YES IT IS ! Have you ever read the new testament ? Jesus continually
refers to our relationship in terms of just that a relationship.
The marriage with Jesus as the Bridegroom and us the Bride. The
references to God our heavenly FATHER ! That is the choice we are
talking about. Are we going to respect and obey and learn from and LOVE
our father or run away from home. Are we going to CHOOSE to return to
a relationship with God or turn or seperation into a permanent DIVORCE.
MB> about a choice your god made that limited him and made a lie
MB> of the claim that he is omnipotent. Is he omnipotent, or
MB> isn't he? You can't have it both ways.
Have you ever heard the expression , when a person CHOOSES not to do
something, he says "My hands are tied". He doesn't mean it is not
"possible" for him to do it. It means he chooses not to do it for a
reason. It doesn't even mean his hands are tied "literally". Let's
not play with words here like the pharisees and sadducees did with
the words of god. Lets try and understand the "true" intent of the
words and understand the concepts expressed.
MB> Maybe it is your picture of god that is flawed, and not your
MB> god himself. When you have to rewrite the dictionary in order
MB> to "make it work," that's a distinct possibility.
I am quite sure that my picture of god is flawed. Unlike some people
I don't claim to know exactly what or who god is. "Now we see through
a glass DARKLY then we shall see face to face".
What I say about God is my personal impression of god.
As far as rewriting the dictionary, a "dictionary" is a tool we use
to give words a common general meaning. The following quotation from
a book a am currently reading may help you understand why I always
SEEM to be "rewriting the dictionary".
Quote:
"Each word stands for a kind of thing, but never a specific one of that
kind of thing. Dog stands for dogs but not for any particular dog. Lamp
covers all kinds of lamps. The more abstract words such as justice and
love are even more vague.
Adjectives such as complicated and safe are also very general
since they can be applied to all kinds of things and situations.
Furthermore, how complicated is complicated and how safe is safe?
To get specific we have to add more words to narrow down
what we're saying to the specific idea in our mind. We narrow down house
by adding that it's a white stucco two-story house with a large lawn
in front and of it and a patio in back. Each word we add narrows house
down further to a specific house we have in mind."
Unquote
All I am trying to do is define more accurately my perception of "God"
or "Christians" or "Life" Or "Love" or any other thing or idea.
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:20
EID:a6dd 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d6a
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Jim Germiquet <=-
> SM> Now: how about some direct evidence for your claimed "Satan" fellow??
> How do you prove the wind exists ? You can't see it or put it in a jar.
SM> On the contrary, I put wind in a "jar" several times a week.
SM> It's known to commerce as "compressed air". Open the bottle, and what
SM> comes out?? AN INTENSE WIND.
Oh really ? And while it is in the bottle, is it "wind" ? or just
"compressed air" ? "compressed air does not = wind . You only know it as
wind because of it's affect on objects. Moving air is referred to as
"wind". But wind itself can only be detected BECAUSE of it's movement.
Perhaps god is like that, you only detect the spirit of God because of
it's movement. When the spirit of God moves we feel it.
SM> Hence, we know that the wind and compressed air are the same thing.
SM> Moreover, we know that the air IS a thing, because when a compressed
SM> air tank is full -- of nothing else but the air -- the tank weighs more
SM> than when empty.
SM> So much for your analogy. ALL real things can be evidenced directly,
I did not say the spirit of God WAS wind, I said it was LIKE wind.
I never ever said the spirit of God was a physical object either.
In fact I have always referred to God as a spirit.
Seems we are talkiing apples and oranges here, and you want me to prove
that an apple is an orange.
SM> by material attributes. Unless it has demonstrable mass -- like "the
SM> wind" in my compressed air tank above -- IT DOESN'T EXIST AT ALL.
If that is your "definition" of existence. But then of course such things
as "love" "happiness", or even negative numbers do not exist under your
definition of "existence". And what kind of life would we have if love
didn't exist ?
Maybe you should change your definition of exist, so we can have some
love in our lives.
> You can "feel" it's prescence. You can see the "effect" it has on other
> things.
SM> Things I have NEVER gotten from ANY "God".
That is your perception. Are you sure that no one in your life has ever
done you an act of kindness because of the love of God ? Do you know
any "Christians" ? Ask them if they have ever done you a favor because
they were moved by the spirit of God. Just the very act of a Christian
telling you of the availability of the love of Christ is a gift to you.
You just choose not to accept it.
> That is the only way to describe proving the existence of God or Satan.
> They are like the wind. You know it exists by the effect it has.
SM> Then, as I asserted earlier, NEITHER ONE EXISTS AT ALL.
Then you must also say that under that definition , your life is
devoid of love.
> God is a "spirit" . What is a "spirit" ?
SM> A liquid possessing enough volatile hydrocarbon alcohols to burn
SM> easily.
You must have a very limited vocabulary, because my dictionary gives
over a dozen defintions for the word "spirit".
Do a bit more reading and perhaps you can discuss this subject on a
more informed level. :-)
... Mary had a little RAM -- only about a MEG or so.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: George Rudzinski
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:21
EID:244b 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d6b
-=> Quoting George Rudzinski to Jim Germiquet <=-
GR> Hell! I'm an atheist, last wallet I found, I returned to the owner
GR> with all the money. The fundie I returned it to was shocked that
GR> nothing was taken.
JG> Me too. But I just handed it into the proper authorities and never
JG> heard from the owner.
GR> Was there a cop standing behind you?
I found it in a subway station. I gave it to transit person in the
booth where you buy your tokens.
JG> Isn't that a surprise concidering I refer to myself as a Christian.
GR> Even Christians make mistakes and do something good every now and
GR> again.
JG> According to Karen all Christians seem to be murdering, lieing,
JG> thieves.
GR> You must've just had an off day.
According to most people, I guess I have an off "life". I kinda believe
in
the "Leave it to Beaver" type life.
... DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename"...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: children
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:22
EID:a495 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d6c
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Jim Germiquet <=-
SS> 05 Mar 96 13:58, quoting Jim Germiquet to Brian Kolacy:
JG> He is with you even now as you are reading this message. God is a
JG> "spirit" you cannot see him or touch him physically, but if you want
JG> to soften your heart, you will feel him. And if you choose to listen,
JG> you will hear him. He IS speaking to you right now. But you don't have
JG> to listen. Your choice.
SS> That's nice. Now, answer this question: If this god has no physical
SS> attributes, how do you differentiate his "reality" from just another
SS> product of your imagination?
Is "love" just another product of our imaginations ? Or is it "real" ?
And is "life" just a product of our imaginations.
Take a life form, and seperate the "life" from it's physical body. Take
just the "life" from that physical body and place it under a microscope.
What do you see ? NOTHING ! Does that mean life is a product of your
imagination ?
God has the same physical attributes as life, it is a force that moves
people. If people are spiritually dead, then God does not move them any
more than people who are physically dead move. Put life into that body
and it will move physically. Put the spirit of God into a person and he
will move spiritually. What are the fruits of the spirit. Peace, joy,
patience and love to name a few. That is how you tell if a person has
a spirit. The exact nature of that spirit however is open to question.
But a person moved by the spirit of God is moved by LOVE, according to
the teachings of Jesus Christ.
... Not tonight, dear. I have a modem.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:23
EID:4aa1 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d6d
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Jim Germiquet <=-
SS> 05 Mar 96 13:59, quoting Jim Germiquet to Alan Hess:
JG> Well if you equate the teachings of Jesus Christ with tooth fairies
JG> and easter bunnies, there is nothing I can do about it. YOUR CHOICE
!
SS> Why shouldn't he? Do you have any evidence, OVER AND ABOVE the
SS> evidence for tooth fairies and easter bunnies, for your god? A yes
or
SS> no will suffice.
You make it so easy ! YES !
... He's got Blue Wave fever and it's spreading through the message bases!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:24
EID:1388 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d6e
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> In the "scientific" explanation they leave out such things as in the
JG> "big bang" exactly "what" went bang and "why" did it go bang and
JG> "where" did it come from in the first place to go bang.
SS> In the creationist "explanation" they leave out such things as in the
SS> creation exactly what is the mechanism and where is the evidence of
a
SS> creator. Creationist also do not explain where the creator came from
SS> in the first place.
Who knows, evolution may very well be one of the mechanisms of creation.
Maybe even that "big bang" is a mechanism of creation. I think of God
more in terms of the "purpose" and "life force" and "strong nuclear force"
of the universe.
Where did the creator come from ? Where did the "big bang" come from.
Both religions requiring faith to believe.
JG> Then they have this "life" mystery they can't explain. you have a
JG> bunch of amino acids, and all of a sudden one day they just decide to
JG> get together and become "alive"
SS> All of a sudden, huh? Do you know what a straw man is? Do you know
SS> what a continuum is?
Bottom line is that there had to be a time where the first LIFE came into
existence. Evolution shows that all life evolves from another life.
There had to be some kind of quantum jump for that first life to come
into existence and THAT is what turns your theory of evolution into
a religion based on faith.
JG> so they can evolve and go out and have
JG> beer and pizza together. Scientists set up a laboratory to try and
JG> simulate the conditions of primal earth. Excuse me but are they not
JG> themselves proving that an intelligence is needed to arrange these
JG> conditions. And even then they cannot duplicate the process.
SS> Well, bunkie, we can't duplicate the birth of a star in a laboratory
SS> either. I guess stars don't exist.
Very true. If you are REALLY lucky, you can WATCH the birth of a star.
Apparently there is evidence that this has happened recently and we are
seeing the very early time of a new star right now.
But it is still a very mysterious event that we can only SURMISE exactly
how it comes into being. We may be able to tell the mechanics and the
source elements and the by products. But where did those source elements
come from to begin with ?
I am not trying to debunk anything. I just want to be careful that we dont
lose track of what sciences can "prove" and what it has to "surmise".
JG> They
JG> can't even define what "life" is. You can have a live body and a dead
JG> body, side by side. What is the difference? Why is the live one
JG> living? What is this "life force" Where does it come from and where
JG> does it go?
SS> Do you have any evidence of life going _anywhere_ after death?
SS> Try to get an education and then get back to us.
I am just trying to find out what this thing we call "life" really is.
If you are so educated, YOU tell me exactly what life is and where it
came from "in the beginning". What is life ? Pull it out of a body,
place it under a microscope and describe it's physical appearance to me
!!
Don't describe the "cell" to me or a "dna molecule" describe the physical
appearance of the "life" within that cell. Take it out of the cell and
place it under a microscope and tell me what you see. THEN I will tell
you what God looks like. Deal ?
... Sorry, the dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Enoch Jones
|Sub: Re: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 10 Mar 96 01:48:25
EID:71ee 206a0e00
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 23837d6f
-=> Quoting Enoch Jones to Jim Germiquet <=-
EJ> On Thu 7-Mar-1996 12:07p, Jim Germiquet wrote:
JG> -=> Quoting Enoch Jones to All <=-
JG> EJ> Atheists have nothing to do with "morals" in the sense that a
JG> EJ> Christian thinks of being 'virtuous' [interesting sidebar: in
the
JG> EJ> early Christian church