God Damned Fundies!
|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 08 Mar 96 16:57:29
EID:7dfd 20688720
RE: AL SCHROEDER:
1% J.J. Hitt, 10% Al Schroeder,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JH> Captain is a rather specific title and not one that can be
JH> self-assumed.
AS> It's really pretty simple.
I know you're dealing with mostly heroes here, but I suddenly
dawned on one General in the group . . . General Zod, who (though a
villan) did have a rank legally, I assumed. Just more trivia.
... Diplomacy is saying 'nice dog' until you can find a rock.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: dinosaurs?
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:01:35
EID:31da 20688820
dinosaurs?:
1% Jim Germiquet, 10% Martin Goldberg,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
AG>> Not even though human and dinosoar footprints are found
AG>> together.
MG>> Please reference ONE instance of this happening. I will
MG>> research it and reply on why it was a fake.
MG>> Do it now and prepare to look foolish.
JG> Dinosaurs weren't allowed in the Garden , and by the time Adam
JG> and Eve had eaten from the forbidden tree, the dinosaurs had
JG> become extinct :-)
MG> You claim that humans and dinsaurs had been found together. I asked
MG> you to reference this. Instead, you come up with this nonsense.
MG> Now, once again, I ask you to reference the "fact" that they were
MG> found together at any time int he Earth's history.
Uhm, Martin . . . AG said the thing about humans and dinosaurs . .
. JG merely butted his big nose in and interrupted your
conversation. }:)
... "He's DEAD, Jim!" -- Dr McCoy "Get his ears." -- Spock
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:10:17
EID:3afd 20688940
US Bans AbortionSpeak on:
1% David Worrell, 10% Al Schroeder,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
AS> I agree completely, being one of the few of my generation who can
AS> REMEMBER the sixties. (I don't think my brother's ever come out of
AS> it.)
DW> Hell, my sister wasn't even *born* until 1971, and she still hasn't
DW> come out of the sixties.
AS> It's depressing. Ads use old Beatle songs to hawk their wares, thanks
AS> to Jackson's selling of the rights. John Lennon is probably royally
AS> P.O.ed, wherever he is.
If he's anywhere, he's probably pissed off anyway. You know how he
was about an afterlife of any kind.
DW> If there's one thing I dislike more than an *old* hippy, it's a new
DW> one. :)
AS> I remember ONE person saying "right on!" seriously. Anybody else who
AS> did always giggled afterwards.
I don't mind the right-ons. But I gag when I hear 'groovy' more
than once a decade . . .
... * <- Tribble # <- Tribble Waffle.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Flood
|Date: 10 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:b87c 206a7500
MSGID: 1:272/99 0011a9c2
(On 03-03-96 Michael Hardy replied to Dan Ceppa)
MH> DC> They "*believed* it." A belief does not fucking make it true,
MH> DC> You should know that, as you don't believe in a global flood.
MH> DC> Why don't you BELIEVE in that, as others have and do BELIEVE in
MH> DC> it?
MH> OK, I'll rephrase.
MH> The resurrection of Jesus must have really happened, because people
MH>who lived at the same time and in the same place knew it happened.
MH>And anyone with an IQ over 20 -- which probably leaves you out, I
MH>know -- realizes that people who live at the time and place an event
MH>happens know more about it than people 1,900+ years later thousands
MH>of miles away.
Hmmm...'tis a shame there weren't any historians around to document
this resurrection thing...'tis a shame *no one* was there to witness
it...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... If Michael had half a brain, his ass would be lopsided.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 9044 þ
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 10 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:4570 206a7500
MSGID: 1:272/99 0011a9ce
(On 03-03-96 Michael Hardy replied to Dan Hunting)
MH> Perhaps you should open your mind a bit. If a "well-reasoned non
MH> believer" can become a Christian, perhaps there's more to it than
MH>you realize.
MH> How about giving him a fair chance to convert you? If there's
MH>nothing to it, then you've nothing to lose. If there turns out to be
MH> more to it than you realized, then you have much to gain.
Have you given the same chance to the Islamic faith? Oh,
sorry...they're obviously not as intelligent as you;)
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... The only time I open my mouth is to change feet!! Michael Hardy
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 10 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:c806 206a7500
MSGID: 1:272/99 0011a9d8
(On 03-05-96 Jim Germiquet replied to Brian Kolacy)
J
JG> BK> LOL! Ok, send the old boy over for tea sometime:)
JG>He is with you even now as you are reading this message. God is a
JG>"spirit" you cannot see him or touch him physically,
Can your god exist physically exist?
JG> but if you want
JG>to soften your heart, you will feel him.
Sounds kind of dangerous. How exactly do you soften your heart, anyway?
Hydrochloic acid?
JG>And if you choose to listen,
JG>you will hear him. He IS speaking to you right now. But you don't
JG>have to listen. Your choice.
So your god is totally imaginary...
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
mephisto@middletown.ny.frontiercomm.net
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 9044 þ
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 10 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:2632 206a7500
MSGID: 1:272/99 0011a9e4
(On 03-05-96 Jim Germiquet replied to Brian Kolacy)
JG> BK> So, which gods do you not believe in?
[much bunnies and light type stuff deleted]
JG>That is why I do not trot out reams of "references" and bible
JG>commentaries. God is personal to me. I know more have to prove He is
JG>alive than that I am alive. I believe I am therefore I am. I believe
JG>God exists therefore He exists. Period. I just don't pretend that my
JG>mortal being can comprehend in entirety an immortal spirit.
So, do you have any evidence that your god exists outside imagination?
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
mephisto@middletown.ny.frontiercomm.net
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Pollytheism n.: the belief that God is a parrot.
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|From: Brian Kolacy
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: better than
|Date: 10 Mar 96 14:40:00
EID:a18b 206a7500
MSGID: 1:272/99 0011a9fb
(On 03-06-96 Rob Burcham replied to Michael Hardy)
R B> -=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Rob Burcham <=-
RB> RB> BTW, we ARE better than you. The total absence of morality
RB> RB> gives us an edge. :)
RB> MH> I saw a comedian once who sang a song that went like this:
RB> MH> Jim Morrison can't sing better than me
RB> MH> I sing better than him
RB> MH> Jimi Hendrix can't play guitar better than me
RB> MH> I play better than him
RB> MH> John Holmes can't make love better than me
RB> MH> I am better than him
RB> MH> Lincoln's not a better leader than me
RB> MH> I lead better than him
RB> MH> Because they're dead.
Looks like Mikey is finally getting a handle on the present
tense...Music can be so educational sometimes.
Cheers!
Brian C. Kolacy
brian.kolacy@leading.org
mephisto@middletown.ny.frontiercomm.net
http://ny.frontiercomm.net/~mephisto/
... Born again? Nope, I got it right the first time.
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: all
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christian America (1/7)
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:04:03
EID:560a 206b0880
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317af9f
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
(I found the following on the Internet. I didn't write it. I'll provide
a URL to those who want the original version. The next time a Christer
laments that this is an anti-Christian nation, feel free to point out some
of the following.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm certainly glad this has finally been brought out into
the open. The anti-Christian bias in our society has reached
absurd proportions. Consider:
1. During the 1988 election campaign, George Bush said that
Christians should not be considered patriots or real
American citizens.
2. Bill Clinton steadfastly refuses to give any speeches at
local churches.
3. Both major political parties are dominated by
anti-Christians. The Republican party, for example, gave us
such hard-core atheists as Pat Buchanan, Dan Quayle, Phyllis
Schlafly and Ronald Reagan. And the Democrats have given us
such personalities as the Rev. Martin Luther King and the
Rev. Jesse Jackson-- both noted for their vicious attacks on
all forms of Christianity.
4. Let's talk about the media. On Sunday mornings, nearly all
major television channels broadcast pro-atheist shows; it is
nearly impossible to find religious programming during that
time period. Further, Madalyn Murray O'Hair has her own
cable TV channel, while Pat Robertson has been unable to
obtain one for himself.
5. Most major newspapers run a special weekly section devoted
to atheism. There are no equivalent sections for religious
news.
6. Anti-Christian shows such as the American Atheist Forum
are broadcast by major national networks. Meanwhile, Billy
Graham is only able to get on the air through public access
TV, which is watched by few people.
7. On news programs and "reality" TV shows such as Rescue
911, nobody is ever shown giving thanks to God after
surviving a disaster.
8. It is almost impossible to find a shopping mall with a
Christian Armory book store, while Atheist Book Centers are
featured prominently on every corner.
9. While atheists couples who marry rarely have any
difficulty finding a place to do so, it is nearly impossible
for Christian couples to find a church where they can marry.
10. For that matter, churches themselves are extremely rare,
while atheist meeting centers can be found every few blocks.
11. Recently, several atheists have shot and killed Christian
priests as they were going to work in their churches.
Similarly, atheists are well known for blockading churches
on Sunday mornings.
12. Nearly all of our elected public officials are atheists;
they even have to swear on a copy of Darwin's "Origin of
Species" in order to take office.
13. In a similar vein, jurors must take an oath upon a copy
of the Skeptical Inquirer before they can serve. There have
even been court cases thrown out because one of the jury
members was a Christian who insisted on swearing on a Bible.
14. And of course, people are free to wear pentagram jewelry,
but those trying to wear cross-shaped earrings or pendants
to work will be politely told to remove the jewelry or lose
their job.
15. Speaking of the workplace, Christians often find it
nearly impossible to get time off work for religious
holidays such as Christmas.
16. Even our language reflects the radical anti-Christian
bias that pervades our society. For example, when somebody
sneezes, most people say "Darwin bless you". Similarly,
"Voltaire dammit!" is a common cussword.
17. All of our money has the atheistic slogan "We do not
trust in God" printed on it.
18. In school, our children are made to recite the pledge,
"One nation, anti-God, indivisible...."
19. One cannot rent a hotel room without finding a copy of
Nietzsche's The Anti-Christ in the room.
20. Organizations such as the Boy Scouts deny membership to
Christians.
21. In the military, it is nearly impossible to obtain
Conscientious Objector status for religious reasons, even
though those with philosophical reasons can obtain C.O.
status relatively easily.
22. Christian churches are forced to pay exorbitant taxes.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: All
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christian America (2/7)
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:05:04
EID:560a 206b08a0
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa0
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317af9f
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
(continued)
23. You can't drive anywhere without seeing a Darwin fish or
a "Jesus Was A Fraud" bumper sticker stuck to a car.
24. Georgia recently passed a new law requiring schools to
have a "moment of noise" during which children are
encouraged to degrade Christianity.
25. College campuses usually have dozens of atheist
organizations, but few if any for Christians.
26. There are several well-known atheist campus preachers who
lecture on college campuses on the virtues of atheism.
27. Also common on college campuses are groups of students
handing out copies of Betrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A
Christian"; some even force people who don't want these
books to take them.
28. Campus newspapers often print editorials extolling the
virtues of atheism.
29. People look at you funny and wonder if there's something
wrong upstairs if you admit to being a Christian in public.
30. Many Christians are afraid to admit their Christianity to
their parents and friends, for fear their kin will consider
them immoral Christian scum and want nothing to do with
them.
31. At presidential inauguration ceremonies, Madalyn
Murray-O'Hair (that well-known friend of several presidents)
gives a short pro-atheism speech.
32. For decades, high school and college commencement
ceremonies have included brief speeches at the beginning and
end of the ceremony in which atheism is praised and
Christians deemed irrational. Christians who object to the
practice, or who ask for an opening prayer instead, are
regarded as cranks at best and subversives at worst.
33. Not only do commencement ceremonies feature pro-atheist
speeches, there's usually an entire two-hour ceremony the
day before graduation dedicated to upholding the atheist
foundation of our educational system.
34. "There are no Christians in foxholes" is a popular slogan
in our society.
35. Most hospitals are full of atheist symbols, and many
prominently feature statues of Nietszche, Darwin, and so
forth.
36. Communities set up atheist brainwashing facilities, and
apply social pressure to citizens to report to these
facilities every Sunday morning. Furthermore, attendees are
expected to contribute money to support these facilities,
and to build others through "outreach" programs.
37. Most parents in America indoctrinate their children at an
early age to be atheists by forcing them to attend these
brainwashing sessions, whether they want to or not.
38. While atheists hold huge rallies in 25,000-seat
amphitheatres, Christians are so few in number that they can
only dream of holding such rallies.
39. At baseball games, you can often spot people carrying
signs that read "Origin Of Species, page 34".
40. Hospital waiting rooms usually come equipped with
children's copies of Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History Of
Time", complete with order forms so that parents can send
off for their own copy.
41. Atheist magazines such as "Atheism Today", "Today's
Atheist Woman", "Atheist Homeschooler", "The Atheist
Century", "Atheist Ministry", "The Atheist Archeological
Review", "Atheist Parenting Today" and "The Atheist Science
Monitor" are featured prominently in newsstands across the
country.
42. The Fellowship of Atheist Athletes has local chapters on
college campuses throughout America.
43. According to recent Gallup polls, approximately 86% of
Americans do not believe in God.
44. Politicians often refer to America's "Agnosto-Atheist
heritage" when trying to woo voters.
45. Atheists are beginning to subvert the American political
process. For example, the American Atheists recently
published over thirty million voter's guides for
distribution at atheist meeting-houses. These guides gave
specific instructions note to vote for those who oppose
atheist values.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: All
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christian America (3/7)
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:06:05
EID:560a 206b08c0
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa1
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa0
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
(continued)
46. It's easy to buy checks with quotes from Thomas Paine,
but almost impossible to buy checks with Bible verses on
them.
47. Businesses often refuse to admit that they are Christian
owned and operated, for fear of being boycotted by their
atheist customers. Meanwhile, atheist-owned businesses often
feature Darwin-fish logos in their ads.
48. There are large networks of atheistic private schools in
America, while it's nearly impossible to find a private
Catholic school.
49. It's difficult to find people with good Christian names
like John or Paul or Christopher.
50. Most gravestones in America are engraved with pentagrams;
those few graves which are engraved with crosses usually end
up being vandalized.
51. Atheists have often invented "deathbed deconversion"
stories about famous Christians, claiming they became
atheists just before they died.
52. Around the time of Darwin's birthday, Christians have to
put up with songs about Darwin, which are played in shopping
malls, restaurants, and even public restrooms.
53. We number our calendar years according to the number of
years that have passed since Darwin's brithday. (Hence the
term "A.D"-- "After Darwin".)
54. Christian gatherings and funerals are often disrupted by
atheists shouting slurs and holding signs that read, "Nature
hates Christians."
55. Books which promote Christianity are often removed from
library shelves in response to atheist pressure groups.
56. A popular bumper sticker reads, "No Jesus, Know Peace.
Know Jesus, No Peace."
57. Insurance companies refer to natural disasters as "Acts
of Darwin".
58. Forms for job applications, government aid and so forth
often ask what type of atheist you are, with checkboxes for
"atheist", "agnostic", "humanist" and so forth. If you are a
Christian, the only thing you can do is check the "other"
box-- if one is provided.
59. Sports teams often read from the Humanist Manifesto prior
to the game, in the hopes that doing so will increase their
chances of winning.
60. Atheists constantly threaten television and movies
producers with boycotts whenever they portray Christianity
in a positive light.
61. Atheists often hold bonfires at atheist meeting centers,
where Christian literature can be thrown into the fire.
62. Gambling is freely legalized for secular purposes, yet
churches have to have their bingo halls in Las Vegas,
Atlantic City or on Indian reservations.
63. Baseball games and the like have "The Star-Spangled
Banner" sung by hard-rock groups bellowing out lyrics such
as, "Foolish god-crazed slaves (whip crack)/At the altar of
Rock and Roll you'll kneel!" and the singers will encourage
any Christians in the stands to get eaten by lions held
ready on the playing field.
64. New military officers are expected to say "God does not
exist" at the end of their commissioning oath.
65. It easy to support atheistic charities like, "Atheist
Children's Fund", "Agnostics Against AIDS", etc., but
virtually impossible to support important causes through
*Christian* organizations.
66. Well-known atheists like Michael Martin and Quentin Smith
have set up ministries to witness to Christians, but it is
virtually impossible to find Christians who specialize in
debating atheists.
67. Congress starts each session with selected excerpts from
Michael Martin's Atheism: A Philosophical Justification.
Each house of Congress also has its own "Atheist Chaplain".
No Christian prayers are ever made in Congress and no
Christian chaplains are available.
68. The word "Christian" is recognized as a term which
represents the worst of human attributes: cynicism,
pessimism, selfishness, and moral turpitude. The word
"Atheist," on the other hand, is used to signify all that is
virtuous, as in, "That's mighty Atheist of you!"
69. On sitcoms and movies of the week, the parents make
references to how their lack of faith in God helps them get
through life's troubles. Meanwhile, Christians are protrayed
as pathetic folks who end up converting to atheism.
70. Many American cities are named after noted atheist
figures; for example, there is Corpus Darwini, Texas and San
Voltaire, California.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: All
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christian America (4/7)
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:07:06
EID:560a 206b08e0
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa2
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa1
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
(continued)
71. Historically, most private colleges and universities in
the US were founded by atheists; while some have become
religious over the years, many of them retain close ties
with atheist organizations, and some of them still use
hiring practices that exclude Christians from their faculty
and staff. (And this discrimination against Christians is
permitted and protected by law!)
72. Atheists who convert to christianity are often told by
their parents "It's just a rebellious phase. Once you move
through this stage of life you'll realize that you never
really believed in God." Similarly, people who are raised as
Christians are condesended to, and told that if they would
give atheism a chance, it would fill the empty hole that
Chistianity must be leaving in their lives.
73. When celebrities or musicians accept awards during one of
the many awards programs, they often end their list of
"thank-yous" with a humble acknowledgment to Darwin for
their "evolution-given talents".
74. During the 1996 election campaign, Pat Buchanan declared
that creationism should not be taught in public schools. "We
need a president who will commit himself to restoring
secular humanist values and driving out the false god of the
Christians," he said.
75. Atheists regularly go door-to-door on Sunday mornings
asking people not to go to church with them.
76. Atheist cults are masters at luring lonely, young,
disenfranchised people into their rational cults to
brainwash them with reason so that they will give their
lives and all worldly possessions to the Atheist leaders.
77. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and other Christian groups
are banned (by Atheist-initiated zoning laws) from passing
out literature from door to door.
78. People who don't decorate their homes with images of the
sun during the Winter Solstice season, are assumed to be
irrational Christians in need of rational therapy and
conversion.
79. Even Atheist businesses hate the Winter Solstice season
because people are encouraged to be rational and reasonable,
thus encouraging our population to avoid senseless spending
and debt and needless possession of material goods.
80. In general, Christians are considered to be
less-than-honest. If you are a Christian, you must have no
reason or rational judgment; therefore, you cannot be
trusted to tell the truth.
81. Prisoners have become wise to the fact that they may
receive early paroles if they claim to have found Atheism
and been saved by Darwin. Such a conversion to rationality
is thought to be a favorable sign of the rejection of a life
of crime.
82. Humanist hate group members shave their heads and run
around painting red H's on the doors of churches to
intimidate Christians.
83. The Humanist Left and the Immoral Majority influence
voting patterns in the Humanist Manifesto Belt states.
84. The government declared an official holiday in November
to give thanks to fellow humans for the hard work and labor
of our agricultural workers who provide the plentiful food
resources we have in the U.S.
85. Atheist leaders of many sects bring in millions of
dollars each week from TV and telephone solicitation and
weekly meeting collections, enough to support at least one
Atheist meeting hall in nearly every community in the
country, while Christian groups barely have enough money to
support a half-dozen national groups.
86. Most people assume everyone else is an Atheist and are
unbelievers as they are. It makes for uncomfortable social
situations for Christians and other religious types.
87. When one looks up "religion" or Christianity" in books of
collected quotations, 99% of the quotes chosen for
publication are negative while atheist or agnostic topics
are filled with positive quotations.
88. Bookstores have entire sections filled with Atheist
literature while "spiritual" and 'religious" books are
almost impossible to find, except through specialized
distributors.
89. Despite the overwhelming number of Atheists in the
general population and in powerful legislative positions,
when they don't get their own way, Atheists whine that this
is an anti-Atheistic country.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: All
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christian America (5/7)
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:08:07
EID:560a 206b0900
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa3
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa2
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
(continued)
90. Atheists constantly cite, out of context, books of
philosophy by noted Atheists to prove that Christians live
irrational lives.
91. Atheists do everything possible to get laws passed that
will prevent irrational Christians from making their own
choices in matters of sex, procreation, life-styles, family
units, etc.
92. Until recently, Atheists had passed laws (known as Green
Laws) that require all businesses to stay open on Sundays,
preventing Christians who wished to practice their religious
beliefs to work, just like everyone else.
93. Sci-fi movies almost always make rational scientific
types into "good guys" while emotional, irrational people
become the "heavies".
94. Movies that featured myths of silly miracles (like the
parting of the Red Sea or the Resurrection of Jesus or other
Biblical tales) never made any money. Most big movie studios
rejected all proposals to make such ridiculous stories into
films. However, "The Humanist Manifesto", 1956, was one of
Cecil B. DeMille's blockbusters.
95. In small towns and communities all over the U.S. Atheist
horns awake Christians at midnight on Saturdays preventing
them from getting a good night's sleep before their Sabbath.
Fortunately for much of the population, few church bells
wake Atheists who want to sleep in on Sundays.
96. At every banquet, no matter the occasion, an Atheist
propagandist gets up and thanks Madalyn Murray O'Hair for
her wisdom and insight in educating us rational beings so
that we can provide the food that we are about to eat. The
presence of non-Atheists is not even acknowledged. No
consideration is given to those who might find such a
practice offensive.
97. Schools across the country force students to sing songs
such as "Jesus Is Not the Son of God" during the Winter
Solstice season. They rationalize this infringement on
minority rights of religious freedom by claiming the songs
are part of our collective culture.
98. During the Solstice season, Atheist Army members in
uniforms block entrances to stores ringing annoying bells
and requesting donations to save non-Atheists from their
pathetic irrational lives.
99. Atheist Army (and other Freethought) soup kitchens force
homeless Christians to listen to Atheist propaganda before
serving them a meal.
100. Hundreds of self-help groups replace codependence with
the 12 Steps of A.B.A. (Atheist Brainwashing Anonymous),
convincing people they don't have the power to help
themselves but must rely on the power of Darwin to overcome
addiction.
101. U.S. Atheist organizations send missionaries to
underdeveloped countries to convince people to renounce
long-held local religious beliefs and become Atheists.
102. On Solstice Eve, there is nothing to watch on TV except
Atheist rituals from Stonehenge.
103. During the Solstice Season, nearly every network airs
reruns (ad nauseum) of "It's A Rational Life", "Reason on
34th Street", "A Solstice Story", "The Stupidest Story Ever
Told", and other Atheist favorites. Christian programming
cannot be found.
104. Christian employees have to use personal days or sick
leave to stay at home to celebrate their holidays while
everyone gets the day off for Winter Solstice and the
birthdays of Charles Darwin and Madalyn Murray O'Hair. All
major Atheist celebrations have been declared National
Holidays with all government offices remaining closed on
those days.
105. All Rational People's Day, the 1st of November, is a
holiday at Atheist private schools. It's a day to celebrate
Voltaire, Edison, Russell, Asimov, O'Hair, and other Atheist
leaders and philosphers for their rational and logical
thoughts.
106. Ronald Reagan denounced the Vatican as the "Heavenly
Empire" because of its official status as a theocracy.
107. When someone is pathetic enough to admit to being a
Christian, friends respond by saying things like, "No you're
not. You just think you are."
108. Images of Lazarus Long, a fictional character in Robert
Heinlein books, are frequently pretended to be seen by
Atheists in paint stains, in the spots of cows, in tree
bark, etc., causing large groups of people to make
pilgrimages to those locations to confirm their lack of
belief in the supernatural. These stories are given national
news coverage to promote the status quo.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: All
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christian America (6/7)
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:09:08
EID:560a 206b0920
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa4
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa3
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
(continued)
109. Christians are unfairly scrutinized for wearing t-shirts
that say things such as "God's Gym" or "Resurrection Day",
whereas atheists can proudly and without any protest wear
their "Reasons Beer is Better than Jesus" or Darwin fish
t-shirts.
110. Christians are constantly questioned as to where their
morals come from. People always wonder why they have a
reason to live, if god is the only thing they live for.
Atheists, on the other hand, are praised for their high
moral standards, and it is acknowledged that they don't need
a reason to live--just "being" is enough.
111. Professors are encouraged to tell the class that they
are atheists during the first class period of the semester,
since this conveys to the students that they sincerely care
about their progress in the class, and about the student as
a person. Christian professors would get ostracized for
doing this; students would complain and the professor would
be told to keep his beliefs to himself.
112. Atheists offen try to scare Christians into disbelief by
yelling that after they die they will be sent to the earth's
firey core and tormented by Nietzsche for eternity.
113. Each year, the U.S. Post Office is nearly brought to its
knees as both devout and "cultural" Atheists celebrate
Lucretius' birth by sending each other anti-religious cards
and illuminated copies of De Rerum Natura.
114. Atheists from Salt Lake City collect lists of dead
people, so that they can be baptised posthumously as
Atheists.
115. Atheists take sick people to doctors so that they can be
'cured', instead of sitting them in front of TV healing
shows. Many of these so-called 'doctors' have no ministerial
qualifications!.
116. Atheists have a superstitious dread of the number 13,
because Darwin once invited 12 of his friends to supper. In
fact, Atheists have such a strong superstition about certain
numbers that road signs and house numbers and company logos
have to be changed to avoid upsetting them.
117. NBC has shows that promote reason and skepticism in the
face of Biblical prophecy or lone pseudoscientists while
shows that promote irrational beliefs are on PBS and never
reach as many people.
118. Noted atheists own "The Family Channel" and show
programming that they find appropriate for other atheists.
119. The shows "Ignored by an Angel" and "Ultimately Illusory
Highway to Heaven" are getting more and more viewers every
week.
120. Each year, the President lights the National Solstice
Tree.
121. There is an entire genre of music known as "Contemporary
Atheist Music." The notion of "Christian music" is unheard
of.
122. Most radio markets have at least one Atheist radio
station. There are no Christian radio stations anywhere.
123. Judges justify abortion based on evolutionary theory and
Nietzche, instead of the Bible.
124. Judges often give long speeches on atheistic morality
and use them as a basis for strange or lenient sentences.
125. All prisons have a resident atheist philosopher, and
inmates are encouraged to participate in weekly philophical
dicussions on Bible Contradictions. This is often reported
to parole board, who consider it a good indication of
contritenes on the prisoner's part.
126. Atheists tend to call homosexuals, lesbians, and
bisexuals criminals against nature while Christians accept
them the way God made them. Moreover, while a few "liberal"
atheist organizations do not make heterosexuality a
requirement for membership, most atheist organizations
strictly condemn such behavior and have used their massive
political influence to criminalize same-sex marriages.
127. School children who profess their Christianity are
routinely held up to ridicule and harrassment by the
students and teachers who make up the atheist majority in
both public and private schools.
128. Relatively inoffensive movies, which might otherwise be
rated G or PG, are likely to be rated PG-13 or R if they
contain excessive religious content.
129. According to comedian George Carlin, the "seven holy
words" that cannot be broadcast on television are "God,"
"Jesus," "Christ," "bless," "heaven," "salvation," and
"soul."
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: John Passaniti
|To: All
|Sub: Life In Our Anti-Christian America (7/7)
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:10:09
EID:560a 206b0940
MSGID: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa5
REPLY: 1:2613/102@fidonet 2317afa4
PID: FM 2.12.SW UNREG
(continued)
130. Congress has recently passed legislation requiring
television manufacturers to install a so-called "H-chip,"
which enables viewers to automatically censor out any
program containing excessive holiness.
131. Another bill recently signed by President Clinton
includes the notorious "Communications Indecency Act," which
will severely restrict the free speech rights of persons
wishing to use Christian or other religious language or
images on Usenet, Web pages, or even local bulletin boards.
132. A political candidate who declares himself a Christian
will have far less chance of winning an election than one
who flaunts his atheism.
133. Former president Franklin Roosevelt always reminded his
speach writers to put "some of that anti-god stuff"in his
speeches."
134. Because many forms of Christianity oppose homosexuality,
the Atheist Left has installed rules allowing members of the
armed services to lose their jobs simply because they have
admitted to being heterosexuals. And, of course,
heterosexual marriages are completely prohibited.
135. Every year in November, the President issues a
proclamation for a national day of Thanksgiving, calling on
Americans to spend the day thanking their parents for
creating them and for all that they have done for them. No
mention is ever made of the role of God in creating people,
helping them acheive happiness, or keeping the country
secure. (The proclamation is usually issued a few weeks
before the ceremonial planting of the White House Solstice
Tree.)
136. Similarly, after a major disaster the President usually
calls for an official day of action; never is prayer
suggested.
137. The President usually ends every speech with the words,
"Let's all help America, since there is no God to do things
for us."
138. Whenever an atheist commits a crime, invariably people
will argue that this is not a sign that teaching atheism
might not guarantee a better society, because anyone who
would act that way "isn't a true atheist. "
This list only scratches the surface. It is high time that
God-fearing Christians rose up and spoke out against the
horrendous anti-Christian bias that has taken hold in
America.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Christian? God demands you kill me. Write for details! (1:2613/102)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 10 Mar 96 09:47:25
EID:7fcd 206a4de0
MSGID: 1:207/212 4526edd5
REPLY: 1:271/460 3141939f
On (09 Mar 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> Noone will obey all the laws, why? Because being saved does not keep
KM> one from sinning, and disobey laws is sin.
Then how am I supposed to do what you expect me to, and remove those
that are in prison for crimes both by secular and by their religious law
from the status of "Christian"?
KM> AFAIK? Is there anyplace in the Bible that says we will not sin after
KM> we are saved?
Then how am I supposed to know a Christian except by what they say they
are?
And if it doesn't keep you from sinning any more than us non believers,
how is it valid?
KM> OK, so if someone goes to jail, they are allowed to go anywhere, but
KM> back into their home... I'm sure all those in prison will be glad to
KM> hear that. Guess we better contact the people that make dictionaries
KM> so they can change the meaning of the words jail and prison. While we
KM> are at it, we had better contact those that run the prisons and jails
KM> as well, they are holding people that they should not be holding. All
KM> they have to do is, keep the people away from their home. Of course
if
KM> they are living in jail, doesn't that become their home?
And this jail, the earth, has become *our* home.
KM> Who hates women? We (men) could not survive without them.
Yet we can't walk the streets at night for fear of men raping us.
... Righteous Gump.....You've Lost That Box of Chocolates
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 10 Mar 96 09:50:40
EID:c514 206a4e40
MSGID: 1:207/212 b4b9c98b
REPLY: 1:271/460 3141965f
On (09 Mar 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> I don't HAVE to accept anything. I believe the Bible, if it turns out
KM> that it is not real, I will never know it. I don't and cannot accept
KM> that there is any God except the God that is in the Bible. If he's not
KM> real, there is no others.
You're not getting my point. There remain many other LOGICAL
possibilities.
KM> KM>> I don't think we will notice.
KD> Right.
KM> What? Agreeing with Pascal's Wager?
No, simply agreeing that if there is no god or afterlife of any kind, we
are not likely to have any awareness after death.
HOWEVER, there are many proposed supreme beings and afterlives. So many
that yours is not the statistical best bet.
KD> Look at it this way - if a Muslim stopped believing, your god is still
KD> a logical option, right?
KM> I have seen Muslim turn from the Koran and start believing in the
KM> Bible. To me, they are believing in a false religion, God is the ONLY
KM> option, which makes him the logical one as well.
You're being stubborn. I'm not trying to get you to admit they're right,
I'm trying to get you to admit that they are LOGICAL POSSIBILITIES. YOU
BELIEVE that Islam is a false religion. I will agree that your faith
does indeed teach that. Yet from where I stand, it is no more or less
likely to be true than yours. I'm equally unlikely ever to adhere to
either faith, as both oppress women.
Take one step back from the Bible and open your mind. Your Bible might
only leave 2 options - false/true God/no God, but TRUE logic indicates
that there are many more.
KD> Fine. But consider the THOUGHT EXPERIMENT that the primary assertions
of
KD> the Bible are wrong.
KM> It's not wrong, and I will not entertain the thought.
That's the problem here. Now I can understand why the great advances in
science and thought were made by people who could at least take a step
back from the Bible. You can't even engage in a thought experiment.
KM> Only one possibility, you lied to me.
Actually, no, the other possiblity is that I was mistaken - perhaps I
was tripping out on Benadryl because I had a cold. Perhaps I had already
received my phone call for the next day's assignment and confused the
two. Perhaps the way you received the information was fallible.
But just assuming that you had reason to believe all or part of the
statement I made about my teaching assignment that day was untrue,
doesn't it open up all those possibilities I indicated as being the
FACTS? Sure, the statement is untrue. But if you want to get at the
FACTS, then all the options I indicated are possible.
OK... let's take this away from the possibliity of LYING. Let's say that
at 8:30 in the morning, my husband wakes up to find me already gone. He
gets a call that he needs to find me. On the computer desk is a paper
saying "Grand Terrace, 3rd grade." HE NEEDS TO FIND ME.
He goes to the office and finds out that the third grade teacher I had
been sent there for came in anyway, but they needed me in another grade.
OR
A call to the sub desk finds that Grand Terrace was my assignment for
TOMORROW and that I'm at ______ school that day [any grade]
OR that I didn't have an assignment that day, Gary goes home and finds
me home eating the doughnuts I had gone out to buy.
KM> Those may be your options, not mine. I don't see any options other
KM> than the God that is described in the Bible, if he does not exist, I
KM> do not believe there is a god at all.
This is YOUR opinion. I'm stating logical permutations.
KD> What you're doing is saying you trust me so much that you believe I
KD> taught 3rd grade at Grand Terrace just because I say so.
KM> No, I didn't say that. Trust in a human is different than trust in
KM> God.
At least you have some way to verify the accuracy of my statements, and
you can verify that I exist.
KM> Remember the only option I listed for your untruth? If I found out you
KM> were lying then you are a lair, that's the only option I would worry
KM> about.
Yet if you needed to act on where I was teaching, and were willing to
entertain the idea that I was mistaken and not intentionally lying....
KM> You can engage yourself in your thought experiment, I will not
KM> participate. My options are clear, if God as described in the Bible
KM> does not exist, then there is no kind of God at all.
You really think God would want you to think that way? He wouldn't want
you to entertain the possibility that there was some miscommunication
and that fallible men wrote things wrong? Why then did he have to send
someone else to repeat his message?
KM> With all that I have seen and experienced, there is no logical option
KM> other than the God that is in the Bible. Logically from my stand
KM> point, if he does not exist, then there is no god.
And I have seen no evidence which makes your god more likely than the
supereme being[s] of any other faith.
KM> Believers are not skeptical of the Bible, maybe that's what the
KM> non-believers forget.
Maybe they should be? Or maybe they should open up their minds enough to
thought experiments like this so they can understand us non believers
better?
... Like a tagline [hey!] Stolen for the very first time
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 10 Mar 96 10:44:16
EID:128c 206a5580
MSGID: 1:207/212 72d25322
On (08 Mar 96) Becke Jones wrote to Kenneth McAbee...
BJ> You should've been able to figure that one out by the context in which
BJ> it was used... Mysogyny is "hating women". Ask Staahl for
BJ> enlightenment, that's his area of expertise...
I hate to admit it, but a quick check of the dictionary indicates that I
put too many y's in there. It's Misogyny. That's what I get for
messaging at 6AM.
... Tetris tagline: ÛÛ ÜÛÜ ÜÜÜÜ ÜÛß ÛÜÜ ßÛÜ ÜÜÛ
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 10 Mar 96 10:01:04
EID:2784 206a5020
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 5f068115
On (08 Mar 96) Annette Spence wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> What you're doing is saying you trust me so much that you believe I
KD> taught 3rd grade at Grand Terrace just because I say so. That's fine,
KD> though gullible because there *is* an intentional untruth in that
KD> statement. but if you're engaging in a thought experiment, you have
to
KD> open up to all the other logical options. I think that's where many
KD> believers lose sight of the religious skeptics.
AS> I would recommend Josh Mcdowell as a good christian perspective on
AS> this kind of logic argument...he does it himself in one of his
AS> books.... Of course I may be posting
AS> this to the wrong person in the argument, but I just wanted to point
AS> out that there ARE christians who try to prove their point using YOUR
AS> argument style.
McDowell's "argument style" has been torn to shreds many times
in this forum. He's an idiot, without a modicum of understanding
regarding the meaning of the term "fallacy."
... Politically Correct: Euphemism for censorship
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 10 Mar 96 10:06:12
EID:270f 206a50c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 88c0f1ff
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ 70e40e2b
On (08 Mar 96) Sally Springett wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MB> The "need" for myth would have been even greater among ancient
MB> peoples who had so many more unanswerable questions than we
MB> do. It is clear that myths did not arise out of some basic
MB> need for religion, but rather religion arose out of some basic
MB> need for myth.
SS> I would say that both arose from a deep need for "answers." We
SS> humans really hate it when we don't know the whys and wherefores and
SS> there are always people who are more than happy to make something up
SS> and then become the "person who knows the answer." If they can make
SS> a buck from becoming a self-styled "expert," all the better.
And it all could have been prevented soooo easily, if only people
had learned to say "I don't know. Let's find out."
... Is a clairvoyant midget jailbreaker a small medium at large?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/40.666)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: JIM STAAL
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:49:06
EID:a647 206a9620
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31432fd9
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-
JB> Doesn't matter if they do. I've never been one to do things predicated
JB> on 'what will the neighbors think'. Whatever I think of you, your
JB> brother or all the alternate personalities...losing someone you love
JB> hurts. It's not a time to try to score points.
JB> I will wait until you start spouting shit again and hit you for what
JB> you say and how you say it. This is just a break in the normal routine
JB> where I can share what you feel. I know how I felt when my mother died.
JB> You must be feeling the same.
....It's been guite an adjustment for my mother also, I think I'm more
worried for her than myself grieving for my father....They were very
close as is the rest of my family to each other....But, my mother will
have to cope with being alone for the first time in 55 years and living
for herself once again.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark staal
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:51:01
EID:b17a 206a9660
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31432fda
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-
MS> people in Smoke can't handle a nickname of LUMP....Gets too
MS> confusing for some, and they keep getting it mixed up
MS> Oh yeah, They look the same....JIM....LUMP....
SR> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAA!!!! YOU said it, Lumpy flea! :D
.....Sorry, Don't quite understand that one.....Don't care to
either.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:52:38
EID:a87b 206a9680
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31432fdb
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-
MS> ...I'm not really sure about that....but, either way, I don't
MS> liked to be compared or referred to as anyone,but myself.
DC> Anything you say, Jimbo.
..... REALLY?...Gee, thanx!
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:30:21
EID:a647 206a9bc0
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31432fdc
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-
MS> Hmmmm, I'm not quite sure, but, I think 19 grandchildren and 12
MS> great grandchildren with one more on the way.
JB>
JB> It'll probably take 3 column inches when my grandfather dies. He had
2
JB> children (my mother is deceased), has 9 grandchildren, 22
JB> great-grandchildren, and 10 great-great-grandchildren.
Wow, he was really blessed with the love and attention of many
family members also.That's great!
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:32:19
EID:d5c2 206a9c00
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31432fdd
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Mark Staal <=-
AS> @MSGID: 1:116/19 0313CB32
AS> How many grandchildren and great-grandchildren did he have?
MS> Hmmmm, I'm not quite sure, but, I think 19 grandchildren and 12
MS> great grandchildren with one more on the way.
AS> Big brood. I'm sure he is missed by all.
..."Brood" is right, We all act like brothers and sisters right
down to the fighting and bickering, but we do it in love....Not out of
hatred or deceit.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
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|From: Mark Staal
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Re: jim staal
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:34:21
EID:0cfe 206a9c40
MSGID: 1:228/45.0 31432fde
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Reg]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-
MS> JB> I know it is late and I hope you will understand. My condolences
MS> JB> to you and your family. It is never easy to lose someone you
MS> JB> love.
MS> Thank you very much, It is very much appreciated.
MS> Hopefully no one will take this in the wrong way and ridicule
MS> you also for showing any sympathy in this matter.
KDM> I doubt it. We may be assholes, but we aren't cruel.
....Well, I never said you guys were that and don't think so
either...as for being cruel I know of only one or two and that's George
and the rice brothers.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
* Origin: WareHouse BBS (Node 2) Wyoming MI (616)538-5413 (1:228/45)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:08:46
EID:b559 20699900
MSGID: 1:207/212 a37aeff4
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 13c40511
On (04 Mar 96) Rick Mcfarlane wrote to Karen Davis...
RM> I think you have mis-stated Michael's assumption. I don't think that
RM> he assumes (as you say) that dying for one's religion within a few
RM> decades of it's emergence is evidence of it's truth. I think he would
RM> say that it _is_ evidence that the martyrs involved are sincerely
RM> convinced of its truth. I think you just might agree with that, and
I
RM> think that's what the Baha'i martyrs also demonstrate.
I agree it is evidence that there was some pretty strong conviction.
There are other variables possible, of course. The women killed as
witches back in the 17th century were not witches, of course. There was
nothing TO recant, for them.
It is also evidence for the horrible fact that religion is divisive.
Even a faith which is apparently as non offensive as the Baha'i has led
to peoples' death. By the hands of Muslims and Christians, as far as I
know.
RM> Based on the above, it appears safe to conclude that several people
RM> who claimed to have witnessed the resurection were convinced of it's
RM> truth. (You'd probably agree with that too).
Well I'm not sure, because the Baha'i martyrships are documented, but
not the earliest legendary Christian martyrships. All we have is the
same document as makes the rest of the claims - no independent
verification.
Further, even in the legends nobody had control of the body for long
enough to satisfy a court of law. They simply saw him on the cross and
then a few days later. How is that evidence of anything? Hypothetical: A
friend of mine and I were in a horrible automobile accident. Last I saw
him he was laying on the ground bleeding. Next I saw him he was up and
walking around....
Let's take it to a more personal level here. I have a friend who claims
to have a variety of psychic powers. Among the things his claimed powers
have led him to predict was the date I would meet the man who eventually
became my husband. Is the fact that we both believe to slightly
different degrees that he happened to predict correctly evidence that he
has those powers?
RM> Michael and Al would go farther and say that, since these people were
RM> in a position to KNOW if the resurection were faked, and they were
RM> convinced of its truth, therefore it actually happened. I doubt that
RM> you'd be
RM> willing to take this last step, but the case of the Baha'i martyrs
RM> doesn't bear on it at all.
They WEREN'T in a position to KNOW. That's the problem.
KD> Unless, of course, you're willing to admit that the Mormons are right
KD> or the Baha'i are right.
RM> Michael has never told me I'm wrong. Not yet at least .
Michael very rarely says such crass things outright. Nor am I saying it.
In fact, having read the entire text file I quoted only a portion of
[someone posted it on Intelec] I'd be very comfortable with more Baha'i
around.
... Forrest Fudd: Wife is wike a box of chocowates.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:25:11
EID:1f9f 20699b20
MSGID: 1:207/212 68c4337a
On (08 Mar 96) Annette Spence wrote to Karen Davis...
AS> I would recommend Josh Mcdowell as a good christian perspective on
AS> this kind of logic argument...he does it himself in one of his
AS> books.... Of course I may be posting
AS> this to the wrong person in the argument, but I just wanted to point
AS> out that there ARE christians who try to prove their point using YOUR
AS> argument style.
I'm trying to understand you here - I see Christians as very black/white
logicians - either THEIR god exists or none does, Pascal's wager, etc.
... Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OR MAYBE JUST SUGAR
|Date: 10 Mar 96 07:52:54
EID:1ecb 206a3e80
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 043a8c87
On (07 Mar 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Jim Germiquet...
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Michael Hardy <=-
JG> GREAT MESSAGE and worth quoting for people to read again :-)
JB> Then you're going to have to read my answer to it ... AGAIN!
JB> When you start pushing for legislation to deny the civil
JB> rights of those you 'disapprove' of, it is hate. I disapprove
JB> of people who allow their dogs to run loose, but I'm not
JB> going to lobby for legislation that would, in effect, strip
JB> them of their citizenship.
JB> And that's what the legislation in Colorado, and proposed in
JB> Oregon, would do. When any one group is singled out like
JB> that, and it is allowed to stand, we are ALL in danger of
JB> losing rights that people have fought and died for.
JB> Who knows...YOU could be next.
You might be interested to know that Lon Mabon is in deep doo-doo
in this State of late. It seems that conservative political
candidates are running from him in droves, loudly screaming that
they don't want the OCA's endorsement of their candidacy. They
finally figured out that it is a negative, rather than a positive
element in their campaign, and greatly skews their chances of
winning an election in favor of their opponent.
Also, several of Lonnie's top lieutenants have fled the OCA and
written guest editorials declaiming it. One carried a headline
that said "OCA VALUES NEITHER REPUBLICAN NOR CHRISTIAN." Shortly
thereafter, Lonnie was quoted in an item as saying (and I
paraphrase) we're behind in signature collection; the people of
the State of Oregon have decided they are opposed to paid
petitioners, but, come the deadline, we'll have the necessary
signatures to get our latest proposed amendment on the ballot.
Yeaaaah. Riiiiiiight!
Lonnie is, in this State at least, whistling past the graveyard.
Too bad the movement he spawned isn't doing as poorly nationwide.
I suspect it's only a matter of time before conservative
candidates figure out that the endorsement of his ugly movement is
the kiss of death on their chances of getting elected.
... AIDS and Global Warming don't scare me: Pat Robertson does!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OR MAYBE JUST SUGAR
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:13:33
EID:1ecb 206a41a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 a69e51ba
On (07 Mar 96) Judith Bandsma wrote to Jim Germiquet...
JG> GREAT MESSAGE and worth quoting for people to read again :-)
JB> And that's what the legislation in Colorado, and proposed in Oregon,
JB> would do. When any one group is singled out like that, and it is
JB> allowed to stand, we are ALL in danger of losing rights that people
JB> have fought and died for.
JB> Who knows...YOU could be next.
Lou just shoved the front page of today's paper under my nose. I'll
not quote the entire article, but I will quote enough to give you the
flavor:
Sunday, March 10, 1996, Oregonian, by Mark O'Keefe:
WHO WILL MABON HAVE LEFT TO LEAD IN OCA?
A failed effort to control Oregon Republicans and differences
in political goals split the Christian conservatives.
Lon Mabor surveyed the room of Republican delegates like a general
on a battlefield. This day, Jan. 7, 1995, his movement was to
seize control of the Oregon GOP, just as Christian conservatives
had done in 18 other states.
With an army of central committee members loyal to his Oregon
Citizens Alliance, Mabon thought he could unseat GOP chairman
Randy Miller, who had refused to endorse the OCA's anti-gay
rights initiative.
John Leon, then the OCA's state coalition director, worked
the crowd with Mabon, making it clear there would be hell
to pay if delegates didn't vote with the forced of
righteousness.
"Threats were being made," Leon said. "What had been discussed
in staff meetings was that those who didn't go with him would
be taken out next time around. That's the way Lon does business."
It was to have been the decisive moment of power for Mabon.
Instead, it was the day it all began to unravel.
A year later, the Oregon Citizens Alliance, one of the country's
first and most successful religious-based, grass-roots political
organizations, is on the brink of going out of business, say
Leon and other former members of the OCA inner circle.
Membership has fallen by nearly a third, to 2,500. Conservative
candidates such as Gordon LSmith, a Pendleton Republican running
for the U.S. Senate, are shunning the OCA's support after accepting
it in the past. Former OCA insiders are discussing what their
"pro-family movement" will look like after the OCA's death....
[In the article, Lon's former communications director is quoted
as saying] "The demise of the OCA is not murder, it's suicide."
Another fun quote: "He (Mabon) said, 'God doesn't send two
messages. I get the message, and if they want to know how
to vote, they should ask me.' I said, 'Lon, do you know
what you're saying?' He said, 'Yes." It was at that moment
that I realized the ability to coalition with the OCA
leadership was over." Sen. Marylin Shannon, R-Clear Lake
The quote under Lonnie's picture says "'Throughout history, even
in the Scriptures, some of the worst betrayals and hurtful acts
come from people of your own house or closest circle.' Lon Mabon"
So, I guess he sees himself as a kin to Jesus Christ Himself.
This is one funeral I'll attend with a smile on my face. Good
riddance to bad rubbish.
... Bigamist: A large fog in Venice.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Sharks [1]
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:56:15
EID:9321 206a4700
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 a39b30a9
REPLY: 1:116/19 04CF239A
On (07 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Kenneth Cavness...
AS> he spoke to his minister about many things, and asked him, (he says
AS> the minister didn't know he was gay) "Do you think God would prefer
a
AS> man dead...or gay?"
AS> The minister answered without reservation, "Gay."
You blew it. The minister answered, "Dead."
... Some minds should be cultivated but others plowed under.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 10 Mar 96 09:00:23
EID:f879 206a4800
MSGID: 1:105/40.666 29501c47
REPLY: 1:116/19 04CF406E
On (07 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Kenneth Cavness...
KC> I might be using it in an even more narrow sense, that being
KC> "evangelical". I generally use the moniker "fundie" to refer to
KC> "evangelical" anyways.
AS> Yes. I tend to call them "charistmatics" but I understand you now.
It
AS> is such a change to see someone use the word "fundamentalist" on Holy
AS> Smoke in the way _I_ would use it that I misjudged.
I use it in much the same way you do. But I STILL regard Mikey
as a fundy. Perhaps it's because I see a third component to
the definition: an absolute sense of one's own rightness to
the point where it is totally impossible for the bearer to say
"I see your point."
... Quick! Close your mind! Something blasphemous might get in.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [2/2]
|Date: 09 Mar 96 12:39:00
EID:6de0 206964e0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3142fe90
A lone voice in the wilderness, Kenneth mournfully howled out
"perservere"
SA> I was, in fact, wondering about that - what if the College members
SA> said to hell with it, and voted for whoever THEY wanted in?
KC> This was the whole point of the Electoral College.
KC> In fact, Alexander Hamilton didn't like the idea of a representative
KC> democracy getting a popular vote at all. He considered the mood of the
?!
KC> People to be too capricious, and wanted the Electorate to be able to
KC> choose as they wished.
! Eee. So much for claims of being completely democratic from
inception. Looks to me like a nice little loophole there, one
even more nasty than stuffing ballot boxes (whereas the loophole
is legal, and stuffing ballots is generally not).
KC> Instead, a mish-mash was developed.
Mish-mash, indeed. It seems almost that the votes by the people
are just an illusion, which might be broken at any time those in
power decide the public just doesn't know what it wants or what's
good for it any more. "We don't like THESE votes. The people
cannot be trusted. So, we'll vote OUR way."
KC> The Electoral College delegates can indeed vote for whoever they want.
KC> For this reason, the delegates are actually chosen quite carefully by
KC> the state head (be it governor or otherwise).
!!
What if most governers were, for whatever reason, of a specific
bent of whatever sort? It sounds as if the Presidency can be
unduly influenced through this process.
KC> A recent case are those delegates that chose Clinton, even though
KC> their state actually chose Bush.
!!!
I find that quite alarming. As I posted back to Dan yesterday, it
seems far too much like a serious weak point in the electoral
process. Is there anything at all in place to ensure that these
College dudes don't decide to get together and stage a sort of
coup? What would happen if, say, Clinton and Gramm were running,
but the majority of these clowns decided they wanted, oh, Pat
Buchanon in, instead? While I'm not a fan of Bush et al, I find
the fact that the College went against the votes of the people of
said state very disturbing.
It does seem that the system has worked well for you folks since
your country's inception, and Dan mentioned that some states
require their delegates to abide by public will .. but it still
sounds like a very vulnerable area, open to abuse and machinations
by those with dictatorial bents (assuming enough of them got
together, and/or got to be College delegates.) Considering the
military and economic power the US still weilds, it's not a
comforting thought that someday, some way, an election might be
engineered to serve the interests of who knows who, possibly to
the detriment not only of your neighbours who might not always do
what Congress and/or controlling special interests has in mind
for them, but to US citizens (especially dissidents of whatever
stripe) as well. Perhaps I misconstrued something here .. and I
hope I have .. or I simply haven't gotten enough information yet
to accurately go on.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... It's tourist season in Florida, bag limit two.
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: WHAT??
|Date: 09 Mar 96 14:38:01
EID:28cf 206974c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3142fe91
A lone voice in the wilderness, Steve mournfully howled out "WHAT??"
RB> The young black woman went to the doctor, concerned about her periods.
RB> The doctor asks "What's your flow like"?
RB> "Well, it's sorta like linoleum" says she.
SR> And in honor of the tenth anniversary of Challenger...these all-time
SR> favorites:
SR> Why did NASA stock Pepsi aboard the Shuttle?
SR> Because they couldn't get Seven Up.
SR> NASA sent a Math Teacher up into space.
SR> Now...she's History.
SR> NASA saved a ton of money on the Astronauts' funeral.
SR> They gave them all a free burial-at-sea!
Hehehe. Say, it -has- been 10 years already, hasn't it? I'm
surprised I haven't noticed any organised whinging about how
dangerous space travel is, how NASA should be done away with, how
we shouldn't waste money and possibly lives on trying to reach for
the stars. Not that it matters much, anwyay - seems like all the
guts have been taken out of NASA since that one stupid little
explosion. All they seem to do anymore is dippy-do "experiments"
that don't seem to reveal much of anything at all .. hacking up
mice that've been in space a mere week is nothing compared to
studying the after-effects of Russians being on Mir for months at
a time.
What happened to the boldness of the Apollo project? So some
silly civilian died - big deal. She knew it might be dangerous
when she went up - if she didn't, she was too dumb to be a
teacher, anwyay. The character Q from ST:TNG probably said it
best - "It's a dangerous universe out there - if you can't take a
bloody nose once in a while, you've no business being out here."
(Or something to that effect.) When the Challenger accident first
happened, the whining and wailing for months afterwards and the
near death of the space programme seems to indicate that America
is too wussy to take an occasional bloody nose. Shame. I had
thought the US to be made of sterner stuff before that. I was
gravely disappointed that NASA only timidly brushed itself off,
and is acting somewhat like a mouse poking his nose out of a hole
even 10 years on. Granted, I have no say in how much money NASA
gets; but I certainly wouldn't mind having my taxes go towards
contribution towards a joint international space project of a more
grandiose sort. I want to see a REAL space station/dock in my
lifetime, damnit. I don't remember any of the moon landings; I
was too young. I did, however, skip school (with mom's
permission) to witness the first shuttle launch, and I still
remmeber how exciting and hopeful it all was. There's risk in
everything, and I think that space exploration/colonisation is
well worth it. One of the hallmarks of humanity is its desire to
keep going, even when comrades fall; it'd be a shame to lose that
spirit now, to cheat all of humanity of the benefits that space
offers, simply because a few intrepid folk happen to die once in a
while. Should mistakes break us, and make us hide, or should they
make us learn so that the next try can be more successful?
(Yes, Kevin, those songs you sent were QUITE appropos. I
especially like "Apollo Lost". After all, one of my characters,
Laika, was named after the first Earthling in space - a Russian
dog who rode in Sputnik II, but didn't make it back alive.
His/her image is engraved on the Wall of Heroes in Moscow,
alongside Yuri Gegarin and other cosmonauts, a rather lovely
tribute. I saw the story - and the Wall - on PBS one day, and was
greatly moved.)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Quantum Physics: the Dreams that stuff is made of.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:34:02
EID:238a 20697c40
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3142fe92
A lone voice in the wilderness, David mournfully howled out "CHURCHES"
DW>> Preterite?
RJ> I explained it to McKenzie yesterday or the day before.
DW> I saw that the day after I sent my query.
RJ> And in truth, I rode Stall's case for not bothering to look up a
RJ> word in the dictionary--I should urge the same of you.
DW> Preterite isn't in my dictionary - I checked before asking.
The word is in mine, though not in the sense Robert meant it; it
has only the grammatical definitions (ie, "of the form of a verb
which denotes something done or existing in the past" and "the
preterite tense of a verb".) A clue is given, though, in the
etymology, being from the Latin for "to pass by". Therefore, I
assume that Robert meant folks whom YHWH passes by, like those
Kalahari Bushmen and pre-Columbian Indians.
DW> My dictionary does contain both "onus" and "erudite", though.
DW> Go ride Staal some more :)
Cripes, Staal, the so-called English Major, couldn't even figure
out words by context. If he's an English Major, I'm Queen
Elizabeth.
On the other hand, perhaps he meant he was an officer in the
British Army. Nahh. The limeys wouldn't have him, either.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Where do you take an unwanted Chia Pet?
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: hi
|Date: 09 Mar 96 15:55:03
EID:7f7d 20697ee0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3142fe93
A lone voice in the wilderness, Katherine mournfully howled out "hi"
GTP>KW> Wheee, another priestess for the Holysmoke Get Together Chocolate
GTP>KW> Ritual!!!
GTP>Are we really going to get together??? That would be so cool!
KW> I don't know. I hope so, San Antonio has been mentioned as a possible
KW> site. That I could probably make (and maybe even drag Bear along).
KW> Maybe we should do something for 'Spouses of Holysmoke'? (Spice of
KW> Holysmoke?)
San Antonio? :( That's a bit far for my blood. I hate to
imagine how much a bus or train would cost to get there. (Though,
if someone passes near Detroit, I could go get a driver's license
real quick-like and split the driving .. unless, of course, I'm
declared legally blind at my next eye exam, which is likely, and
which would probably be a detriment to any prospects of getting
any sort of license at all.) I'd love the excuse to go see Texas,
though. I love praries and deserts and wide open spaces, almost
as much as I like mountains. Oh, yeah, and meeting you folks
would be neat, too. :)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... As God is my witness .. I thought turkeys could fly! - Arthur Carlson
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: The Bible and The Bible alone
|Date: 09 Mar 96 16:09:04
EID:7382 20698120
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3142fe94
A lone voice in the wilderness, David mournfully howled out "The Bible
and The Bible alone"
LB>> so I can't see that you have anything to complain about. Nor can
LB>> I see why it should trouble you if I've found friendship instead
LB>> -- that doesn't seem to be what you want anyway.
JS> That you would have to sacrifice Biblical principles to do so is what
JS> would bother me, Lynda.
DW> Which Biblical principles has she sacrificed, Jim-bob?
Why, she speaks her own mind, and doesn't let hubby do it for her,
like Jimbo's wife does.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Squirrels - Junk food for bears!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 10 Mar 96 13:07:00
EID:decf 206a68e0
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3143BEDB
DK>. I suppose in the next few days I'll see 2,000 questions from
DK>lurkers like Dan Ceppa and J.j. Hitt wanting to know who my SOURCES are
and
DK>I can prove the existence of angels... truth be known, I can't prove
that to
DK>anybody who is so UNFUNDY and sarcastic (not a flame, just being truthful).
DK>Aaahhh, well. Such is life....................................... Oh,
what
DK>HELL, let's have a bit of fun....GOT ANY GOOD ANGEL STORIES????
Ut-
DK> Here they COME!!! - Thanks again - Dawn
Well not really but one of your lurkers has allready got me going on The
great flood. But I will always be here as a good Chistian to listen to
your tell's and enjoy and learn. A open mind is very important to a true
beliver. Well let the other show scorn I pity them for there liminted
imaginations that alow them no room for the majsty of the cross and the
peace of Faith.
Your Friend in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * There is Hope for all, and There is Always room To DR---
* LAKOTA v1.5
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS: -* Texarkana, TX * 903-792-6135 *- (1:3819/163)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Monty Arch
|Sub: Angels
|Date: 10 Mar 96 23:30:00
EID:f954 206abbc0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 23175e7e
REPLY: 1:236/64 23001834
> I have a guardian angel that pulled me back from oncoming traffic,
> which I was stepping out from between parked cars.
>>Was it wearing pink lace and white slippers with lots of glitter?
> Only if my guardian angel was you.
Well, since you're already in a fantasy world; it would be
consistent that your fantasies about me would be equally absurd.
Dream on, angel boy.
---
* Origin: Ever wonder why churches have lightning rods? (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: #smoke
|Date: 10 Mar 96 23:34:01
EID:f4bc 206abc40
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 23175e7f
REPLY: 1:228/45.0 31404861
> ........Al, I heard, awhile back, that you were in #Smoke....
> You don't happen to know how to get there on the internet
> or have the correct address?
Download mIRC 3.92 and connect via undernet.org to #holysmoke
---
* Origin: The other side of the wall. Keep it down in there! (1:152/20)
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|From: Styx Allum
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Question
|Date: 10 Mar 96 23:45:02
EID:e8a2 206abda0
MSGID: 1:152/20@fidonet.org 23175e80
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org f00a8ae8
> SA> > ... Conservative integration - A white golfer with a black caddie.
> SA>This white non-golfer used to drive a black Cadillac.
> SA>Your tagline was typical of a something that a racist would say,
> SA>George. Do you want to sound like a racist?
> Styx, I cannot believe George is a racist. A lousy speller, yes...
> he meant 'caddy'...in which case it's humorous irony. (although
> I'm not sure how the diminutive for Cadillac is really spelled,
> I don't think that's what was implied)...
Karl... forgive my astonishment at your literal interpretation
of what I believed to be obvious sarcasm. And no...
I didn't park it in the Caddyshack. ;-)
> Looks to me like it was merely a way to point out hypocrisy...
Ironically, his pointing out of hypocrisy was in itself hypocritical
(in light of creating bias in order that it be found).
> ---
> * OLX 2.2 * Ping Pong Balls: A Chinese venereal disease.
Cockroaches: Venereal buggers resistant to radiation.
---
* Origin: Origin: Origin: Origin: Origin: (Damned echos!) (1:152/20)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 09 Mar 96 19:53:00
EID:a628 20699ea0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 05:18, Jim Germiquet got back to David Worrell
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited.
He does??? Why not prove the evidence that your god even exists
before you tell us what you claim your god can do?
... +Origin: PARASTALSIS NETWORK: Down the Tube with Jeeesus!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:03:00
EID:da67 2069a060
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 15:18, Dawn Kleuser got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Got evidence that Satan exists, John? If so, lets see it.
DK> Hello, Dan. Yep, it's me. I'm sure you're thrilled. I just
Yep, haven't had a good laugh in the last 20 seconds...
DK> every effort to tear me up on what I'm about to say here. Flat out:
DK> There IS Satan, just as there is God. For every force, there is an
Problem is, you have yet to provide evidence for either one of the
deities that you worship.
DK> well argue over what shade of blue the sky is with people who are
DK> color-blind.
Unlike your god, the concept of blue can be demonstrated even to
blind people. They may not be able to see the color with their
eyes, but the color can be shown to be testable.
... Jesus loves you...but, then, so does Barney.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:05:00
EID:c61a 2069a0a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 20:27, Michael Hardy got back to Tom Hart
-> Re: Allegory
MH> No, God is not a "guess."
Then, Mikey, you should be more than willing to provide the
evidence that supports your claim.
... All Truths begin as blasphemies. George Bernard Shaw
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Tom Hart
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:08:00
EID:d3f4 2069a100
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 20:27, Michael Hardy got back to Tom Hart
MH@> You can't know for certain. You can make *educated* guesses, though.
TH> So your God is a guess. Please *_NEVER_* pass your guess as fact.
MH> that's the fastest way to be added to my rapidly growing twit filter.
Congradulations! You made it to Mikey's twit filter faster than
anyone else that I'm aware of!
At the rate Mikey's twiting people, I'm suprised that he hasn't
even twitted himself.
... "Thread Dropped, discussion welcome." Michael "clueless" Hardy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Baptism
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:16:00
EID:1b2a 2069a200
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 03:33, Brad Jackson got back to Fredric Rice
FR> Have any evidence for these invisible playmates of yours? Any at all?
BJ> can not see yet we know exist! I won't go into all of them here,
BJ> but lets see what the bible said about people that believe with you
Ever hear of the concept of Circular Reasoning?
BJ> John 20:29
Didn't think that you did. Now, trot your dead prophet out
and show he exists, not existed, in other than the broken
turntable that you call your brain.
... Brad Jackson ...Condom poster child
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Bible
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:18:00
EID:899d 2069a240
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 03:33, Brad Jackson got back to Kenneth Cavness
BJ> The bible is true because God (Jesus Christ) said it is true!
Spin, 'lil' fundy, spin. You are making the Whirling Dervishes
look like statues.
... It's ALWAYS dark if you never open your eyes!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Bible
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:23:00
EID:899d 2069a2e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E32
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 03:33, Brad Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
BJ> profitable for doctrine,
DC> Of course it's profitable. Where do you think that they get the
DC> money to build those big churches.
BJ> Acts 7:49 Heaven my throne,
And it's made of porcelain and should have been flushed well over
2,000 years ago.
... Creationists: Transitional forms between idiots and morons.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: BIG BIRD
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:31:00
EID:a41c 2069a3e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E33
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 07:40, Judith Bandsma got back to Norbert Sykes
JB> discourage him...even telling him it was snails...because they were
JB> fairly expensive. Then we figured we'd let him find out for himself.
JB> He loved them. So that became his special birthday food.
My daughter's standing order for her birthday is lobster. MAINE
Lobster, which is a bit dfficult to get out here...
There's a great story about the first time she saw a lobster, but
it needs to be told visually! (Which reminds me... She was sick
over her last birthday and we weren't able to go out for dinner,
which I promised her. Looks like I'll have to do that soon, as
the next time I'll have to pay for her date's meal!)
... Oysters are clearly members of the phlegm family....
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: christology
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:42:00
EID:a7f0 2069a540
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E34
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 14:44, Lee Woofenden got back to Dan Ceppa
LW> Exactly! God's accepting us as we are is the reason evil can exist.
We
DC> Try looking back into your mythos, as understand where "evil"
DC> came from.
DC> Try looking into your bible, Lee. It's your god that is responsible
LW> If you are talking about the Bible, yes, I have read and studied it
LW> for many years.
Too bad you have only read it.
LW> Dan, the Bible is not so much a single "mythos" as a history of the
LW> development of the mythos of a particular segment of the human race
Problem is, Lee, that the mythos was stolen from other extant
mythos. The bigger problem is that those that stole it didn't
just make it into a mythology, they made it into a religion.
LW> things like "God created evil," you're going to be disappointed when
LW> you actually read the Bible from beginning to end.
Your problem, Lee, is that I have read it. And, not just once and
not from what I was supposed to read.
LW> question is not so much, "What does the Bible say?" as "How do we
LW> interpret what the Bible says, and what weight do we give to it?"
Take that further: Take it to the point that you will allow others
that do not buy into your mythos to exercise their own choice of
religion and/or non-belief. Can you do that?
LW> Having pointed that out, I can tell you, Dan, that you do not even
LW> know what "my mythos" is,
That just shows how little you know and why my entreaty to understand
other beliefs has fallen on very deafened ears.
... Jesus saves...but what is he saving you for??
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:45:00
EID:e054 2069a5a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E35
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 05:18, Jim Germiquet got back to Fredric Rice
JG> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from. tell me
You been holding back on us, Fred?
... "Have any honest answers, or will you respond like a xian?" D Martin
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:49:00
EID:9b65 2069a620
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E36
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 01:04, Al Schroeder got back to J.j. Hitt
JG> My religion is not of this world.
JH> You're a Martian?
AS> See, I TOLD you my Church has a good missionary program....
AS> (Sure hated it when the missionary had Dejah Thoris get dressed,
AS> though...)
I tried to warn you about that, but now you have to put up with
that Puritan concept....
I'm not sure, but I think I have a few John Carter comics.
And, NO! I don't have any duplicates in that series!!!! :-)
... "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you." - Inigo Montoya
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 09 Mar 96 20:54:00
EID:4d55 2069a6c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E37
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 23:01, Michael Hardy got back to All
MH> Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin. So
MH> I'm going to liven it up with a little game.
Gee, that's nice. Are you leaving and coming back under an
alias?
... Your skull is a cerebral cortex compost site.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: Hardy's hard on, Hardly!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 21:09:00
EID:a44f 2069a920
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E38
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 23:01, Michael Hardy got back to All
MH> The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa,
MH> David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David
MH> Worrell.
Eat your hearts out, David, Fredric, Sean, Steve and David!
I, God Dan, got star billing! Though, coming from Michael,
that really doesn't mean as much. After all, the Oscar he has
gleaned for playing the "Wounded Fundy" is far more prodigious.
That's of course knowing that that Oscar is as hollow and
gilt as well as his god is.
... "Thread Dropped, discussion welcome." Michael "clueless" Hardy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 09 Mar 96 21:16:00
EID:08f1 2069aa00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E39
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 03:00, Becke Jones got back to Preston Simpson
PS> As some of the more observant amongst you may have noticed, I've been
PS> absent for nearly a week. This is not my fault (no Satanic curses, no
BJ> Undoubtedly, not as much as _I've_ missed being away for nearly a
BJ> year!! It's good to be back...=)
You where here a year ago... Must've missed that!
Have some more fun, and take it easy on Preston. After all,
he just recently got his god diploma. As he can get testy and
is not quite familiar with his newfound powers, give him a
Twinkie. Besides, that's part of his official title!
... Heresy n. Freedom of thought.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 09 Mar 96 21:22:00
EID:aa34 2069aac0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E3A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 03:33, Brad Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
BJ> God is a spirit.
DC> Try turning on the light and he'll stop scaring you.
BJ> Psalms 23 A Psalm of David. The LORD my shepherd;
And, little the sheep that you are, you follow to be fleeced
by your shepherd.
... Cretinist: a Creationist minus her Alpha and Omega.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Lack of any Evidence what
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:00:00
EID:1b65 2069b000
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E3B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-06-96 17:01, John Brawley got back to Fredric Rice
jB> What's wrong with "_Theistic_ evolution?"
FR> What's wrong with Pixic evolution?
JB> Nothing, if you've got a viable mechanism for the Pixies to be
JB> meddling about at the DNA level's particle physics. Have you?
Got a sampling of god's DNA?
Better hope not, as there will be one hell of a lawsuit...
... 16.4% of all statistics are made up. The rest are false.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Salvation
|Date: 09 Mar 96 22:28:00
EID:6856 2069b380
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E3C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 03:33, Brad Jackson got back to Dan Ceppa
BJ> What did the bible say, when it came to salvation?
DC> The bible doesn't talk, unless you pull the string on the
DC> Say 'n' Tell version that you need.
BJ> Hi Dan.
You really are the moron you make yourself out to be, aren't you.
Before you go further in your idiocy, provide evidence that
your god exits. Until you do, your bible is meaningless as
a reference source, other than for laughs.
... +Origin: MARTYR NETWORK! *PLEASE* persecute me for Jeezuz!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:08:00
EID:3c5c 206a4100
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E3D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 05:18, Jim Germiquet got back to Karl Schneider
KS> Ah. If Hitler does it, it's bad, but if God does it, it's OK.
KS> That is some really sick shit.
JG> When did you EVER see god kill anyone ?
I take it you have never read your bible.
... +Origin: FAITH HEALING NETWORK: Killing children in the name of Jesus!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: animalize
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:07:00
EID:3b08 206a90e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E3E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-08-96 06:16, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
MH> You want to believe you're an accidentally animated hunk of
MH> meat. Fine. I refuse to think so lowly of myself, or even of
GR> I don't see where admitting what we are makes us lower. I
DC> It only does when you need to think that you were given
DC> "dominion over the earth". When you find our that you are
MB> food chain. Had we not learned to view ourselves as fallen angels,
MB> rather than the animals we truly are, maybe we would see more
MB> clearly our dependence on the other animals for our survival. As
Which was my point, I think!
MB> a sort of canary in the mine. And, when that "canary" dies, it
MB> tells us that we are that much closer to death ourselves.
Very good analogy. Wonder if MH is taking notes? :)
MB> Fallen angels, indeed. I prefer to think of us as the risen
MB> animals that we truly are.
Only to the extent that we have an understanding of our environment
and can excercise some control over it. However, you just have to
look at the natural disasters over the last few months to know that
it is still only relatively small areas that we really have control.
Even then, some of the methods of control and modification have
been as bad, if not worse, than the original "problem", such as
the "need" for rabbits in Australia.
BTW, for what it's worth, MH has me and few others on his twit list!
... EARTH.EXE corrupted. Run ARMAGEDN.BAT? (y/n)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Electoral College
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:14:00
EID:4d19 206a91c0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E3F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 14:35, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> I was, in fact, wondering about that - what if the College members
SA> said to hell with it, and voted for whoever THEY wanted in?
DC> In some states, they still can, though most have their delegates
SA> Hmmm. It had crossed my mind that the Electoral College might be
SA> a weak point in which a roundabout coup could conceivably take
Possible, but not overly likely, as most states require that their
delegates vote along the lines of the election results. However,
the scenario in the book I mentioned is possible, though not all
that probable. Yet, if something like that does come to pass,
it would end up in a rather interesting shakeup of the Electoral
College system, I'm sure.
DC> Everyone was watching the outcome of that one...
SA> that which simply said: "Congratulations! You still have a
SA> country!" from Australia. I hadn't realised the news was being
Nice thing about it is that with technology there are very
few isolated backwaters anymore. It can be intrusive at times,
but it goes a long way to promoting global understanding.
... I am Not a number! I am a free man!: #6
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: flood
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:25:00
EID:703d 206a9320
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E40
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 02:09, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> HI, Barb! Oh, just that dull Holy Smoke echo, nothing that would
DC> Good think I gave you a conscience, isn't it. Hope you remembered
AS> Nyaaahhh, don't need to. If I do that, she's smart enough to figure
AS> it out and put it on the screen when she's looking at her favorite
Why do you think I created those movies and TV stars?
AS> Then shatter my disbelief. Turn water into wine, walk on water,
DC> That would be far too easy. You should not depend on evidence for
DC> your belief in me. You need faith. Only in faith will you really
AS> Besides, it would spoil my free will NOT to believe. You wouldn't
AS> want to do that, would you?
Of course not. Besides, why would I create something and just
decide to throw it in the dumpster?
DC> Still doesn't matter. They believed him god, just as you believe
DC> that Jesus was god. No evidence is required in a belief system.
AS> Welllll....although that might be true,
DC> But it is true. They died for their Emperor God. It is documented
AS> Sorry. Should have said, although that IS true.
Kinda sounds like they believed and acted on their beliefs the
same way that early xian martyrs did, downs't it?
DC> I take it that you realize that Kamikaze means "Divine Wind". It
AS> Sure. But you can't see the Divine Wind within them, any more than we
AS> can tell, just by your typing, that you are a God Dan.
Yes you can. Her, let me mkae a few tipos so that yo know that
it's relly me.
DC> After all, no man would willing die for a false belief.
AS> Oh, they do it all the time. They have to...they can't ALL be right.
No, they can't. However, you have no basis to show that any belief
is correct.
DC> affected China that they never again launched an invasion against
DC> the Japanese. That's one great indicator of a Divine Truth.
AS> And there was a storm that stopped the Spanish Armada, too. Storms
However, at that time, xianity was the rule in Western Europe. The
church would not stand for a myth created that sprouted another
god.
AS> yet--despite all reason, all previous experience---a dozen followers
AS> suffered flogging, risked death, risked imprisonment---for saying they
Note: Only the death of Stephen seems to have any backing outside
of the bible.
AS> DID observe such. That they personally saw a dead man walking around.
Just which of the gospels are written by one of those "eyewitnesses"?
... Ilegitimus, Non-Carborundum Es
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:28:00
EID:703d 206a9380
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E41
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 03:07, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> The literal DISCIPLES---the Twelve, James, those five hundred Paul
AS> mentioned, Mary Magdelene...saw a physical event.
DC> And, just how many physical events have you witnessed that include
DC> bringing a truly dead man back to life? Even your own bible does
DC> not provide a single witness to the event, only an empty tomb.
AS> No. Even if they were expecting it (and everything seems to show the
AS> opposite) I doubt if anybody was interested in sitting in a cave
AS> sealed with a large stone, with a rotting body nearby, to see if it
AS> would rise. However they DID see...or claimed to have, and gave
The salient point, Al: "Claimed". After all, all of the apostles
ran away before the death. None of them where there to observe
the resurretion. In fact, there was no one there that saw it.
... "Better than a poke in the eye with sharp stick!" J. Lackey
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: David Rice
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:34:00
EID:5080 206a9440
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E42
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-06-96 13:30, David Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Anthony Grigor-scott <=-
-> Anthony Grigor-scott got back to Al Schroeder
>AG> Kind regards,
DC> Eat shit, mother fucker.
DR> ROTFL!
Well, just felt it had to be said... }:-)
DR> At least it was better than the Fundy black magick curse: "I'll
DR> pray for you!"
Which is why I did that. Though Al may actually be praying for
me on his own time, he doesn't sign off on his messages in the
smarmy manner as Grigor-mortis.
... So, how come there are no "talking snakes" nowadays? - Scot Vertullo
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:39:00
EID:9e72 206a94e0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E43
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 00:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> If you missed it, there's an Al Schroeder, et al Class Action
DC> Suit in the works to go after Ass-mo-diddle!
AS> Now you see why he posted under an alias...he's probably done this
AS> sort of thing before.
Probably changes BBS's as often, just to keep the "seen by" list
harder to track.
AS> "Who was that masked moron?" "That, my son, was
AS> the Lone Curser." As he rides into the sunset yelling, "Hi yo, Levay,
AS> AWAYYY!!!"
Maybe it's time to make a silver bullet and give it too him. However,
silver iodide crystals in a 12 guage would be maybe less harmful...
AS> Makes it harder for people to sue him.
We could always track down his parents and show them what their
12 yr old son/daughter is up to!
... "There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny." - H. Solo
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:52:00
EID:8b49 206a9680
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E44
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 03:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Deep fried watermelon? Sounds like something that would be a Southern
DC> cook. Turns out she didn't!
AS> VERY sneaky.
In fact, she still can't cook!
DC> Now, deep fried mashed potatoes is real. Very tastey, I might add.
AS> Deep fried mashed potatoes? But...how...hmmm. Topping fried like
AS> baked alaska, maybe?
Nope, a Baked Alaska *is* baked! There is a recipe for deep fried
ice cream, but I've never made that, nor even sure if I have it..
Had that in a restuarant one time. Rather good!
DC> provide you with the secret that only God Dan and a Chef in
AS> You want me to beg? Hey, I'm not proud. HOW???
As long as you asked so free-willfully! :)
Use day old mashed potatoes. They have to be very stiff, though
not dry. Add a bit of cheese, not too much, if you want.
Any good melting cheese works. Just use it very sparingly.
Form the mixture into 3/4 inch balls and refrigerate. I using
let them sit in the freezer for an hour. (It works even if you
plain freeze them for a day or so.)
Next, make a medium to thick plain crepe batter. Use this to dip
the potato balls in. Immediately deep fry until browned.
Plain mashed potatoes work great! The cheese adds a bit of zest
to the results. Even the plain ones have a "cheesy" texture
to them.
You'll know if you didn't coat the potato balls enough, as you
will have a lot of deep fried granules of potato sitting at the
bottom of your deep frier!
... Eat yogurt - Get cultured.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:59:00
EID:8b49 206a9760
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E45
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 04:02, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> for them to conceive of a self-Resurrection.
AS> John comments one way or the other, as to whether Jesus raised Himself
AS> or whether God raised Him.
DC> Yet, you just claimed that a "witness" could not conceive of that,
DC> due to his religious upbringing...
AS> Well, really, Dan, to the disciples it makes no practical difference
AS> whether Jesus raised Himself or whether God did it for Him. Either
It makes a very big difference in your mythology, Al. If he had
to *be* raised, then Jesus was not the god that he's claimed
to be. It's like he claimed he could perform open heart surgery
and then brough in Christian Bernard.
... I said a BUD LIGHT!" - J. d'Arc
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:11:00
EID:a606 206a9960
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E46
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 05:07, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> as fact, not theory. After making idiots of ourselves during the
AS> Scopes trial, they're trying it again...
AS> Ahhh, it'll be struck down by the courts. They're just having their
AS> political cake and eating it to...voting for something that will
It's things like that, among most everything else that they do,
tha gives politics a bad name.
AS> Well, concerning the heliocentric theory, I doubt there's anyone in
AS> Tennessee, even in the smallest hamlets, except for the same
That's a start, at least.
AS> But I would ALSO say the majority take the Adam and Eve story
AS> literally. Some believe one thing on Sunday, the rest on other days
of
AS> the week.
As has been pointed out, that's the scary part. Just how soon
is it before they decide to enact their Sunday beliefs as the
rule of the state/country, etc...
AS> especially in the East, where the Smoky Mountains start cutting off
AS> towns, can be pretty Deliverance-like.
That is appalling, with all the ways of providing information to
still have such areas to still exist in the backwaters of
education.
AS> Vanderbilt football, who rarely win..."best SAT scores in the
AS> Southwestern Conference").
Try my alma matter: On of the senior classes graduated and never
saw their team tie, let alone win a single game! (Made Sports
Illustrated, though some poor school beat that record since then.)
... "I missed being god by one vote!" Odin
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:18:00
EID:366d 206a9a40
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E47
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 14:30, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> years into its mandate. IMO, the wrong government is calling an
SA> election. I wish the provincial gov't would do that, instead.
Sounds like you aren't too happy with your "state" gvt!
SA> Mm. I just noticed the Detroit stations have started airing "Yes
SA> on 1 and No on 2" ads yet again. Gee, it hasn't seemed like four
SA> years have gone by already ..
Elections are at least every 2 years. It's the presidential
election that's every 4 yrs. In some places, there are varous
elections held every year.
SA> elects its leaders with less than a 50% turnout.
DC> Worse is the fact that this country prides itself on setting the
DC> standard for the democratic countries.
SA> Mm. I have a few sarcastic comments, but I believe I'll be nice
SA> for the moment and hold my tongue, lest I yet again attract the
SA> Wrath of Jones (and perhaps McCullough as well.) :P
Well, don't bite it off! Better to get Jones in on this. After
all, it's a global world these days, whether they believe it
or not.
... "Children are meant to unfold, not to mold". Chip Griffin
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: perservere [2/2]
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:24:00
EID:9964 206a9b00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E48
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 14:39, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> - like Clifford Olsen, who murdered a dozen children and extorted
DC> Though I'm against capital punishment, it's animals like him that
DC> I'd prefer to see a work or starve camp, something along the
DC> lines of _Escape from New York_.
SA> still sounds quite nice, too. (In case anyone's wondering why I
SA> keep referring to hanging specifically, it's because it was (and
SA> would be if returned) the standard and traditional form of
Your gonna like(?) this: There's a similar murderer in this
state that has chosen hanging as his punishment. However, the
SOB claims the punishment can't be used, as he's too heavy and
the hanging would rip his head off. Yep, they still serve the
fat bastard all the food that the fucker can eat, maintaining
his obese status.
In his case, he deserves to be starved to death...
... Close your eyes, click your heels together 3 times and yell "IS NOT!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: perservere [2/2]
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:28:00
EID:9964 206a9b80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E49
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 14:39, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> ... "Mein Fuehrer! I can WALK!" - Dr. Strangelove
DC> Got any more of them stashed away?
SA> Unfortunately, no; I would like to get the movie and glean through
SA> it for more, though. It should be on TVOntario sometime in the
I'll try and see if it's in th local video store. I'm sure,
knowing Peter Sellers, there has to be dozens of them. One
of the guys I work with may be of help, as I think he has
memorized the script!
SA> summer .. the host of the Saturday night movie fest ALWAYS runs Dr
SA> Strangelove in front of "Failsafe", making for a great evening of
I liked Failsafe, but Dr Strangelove is still the better of the two.
And, as to strange pair-ups: M*A*S*H and Patton always seem to have
been run together at the drive-ins...
... Cheerios ei...."you are breakfast cereal".
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:32:00
EID:c1e1 206a9c00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E4A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 20:06, Preston Simpson got back to Dan Ceppa
RS> The Tennessee Senate has approved, 27-1, a resolution urging
RS> homes, businesses, places of worship and schools to post and observe
DC> Fortunately, at this time. it is only "urging".
PS> The way I heard it, it was a statute (not a law. Statutes are merely
PS> legal suggestions, or so I'm told) posited by the governor. Basically,
That could be a local use of the teminology. I'm familiar with
actual laws being known as statuates. Hopefuly, it is only a
local version...
PS> I am at the moment unsure of the status of the recent bill that went
PS> to the Tennessee Senate to make it a crime to teach evolution as a
PS> fact. If it passed, then the State Supreme Court should by all rights
PS> blow it to hell. That's a bald circumvention of the First Amendment
of
PS> the U. S. Constitution and also against the State Constitution. Sheesh.
As I mentioned to Al, looks like it may be a newer version of
_Inherit the Wind_ in the offing.
... Dear John Hinkley: Bill Clinton is dating Jody Foster.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:37:00
EID:be00 206a9ca0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E4B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 09:04, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> For a good older diversion into fright, try the _Haunting_
AS> by Shirley Jackson, which was made into the movie, THE HAUNTING. I saw
AS> it when I was ten or so, and never forgot it. The ghost banging the
AS> walls and doors like he was going to batter them down. To my mind it
Best part of the whole thing is the "lost art" of not showing
anything. The movie _Species_ did a fairly good job on going
back to that time of format. Yet, that movie did get far to
graphic at the end and somewhat spoiled the effect...
AS> held up much better than the EXORCIST, although I will admit my
AS> nine-year-old and wife watched it and if anything were bored.
The Haunting or the Exorsist?
AS> ghost story in the English language. (I also like the ghost stories
of
AS> M.R. James.) As is my wont, even when I was thinking of the movie, I
Not sure of that author... However, did you read the book, _Ghost_?
The movie, based on it, was only a shadow of the book, and very
faint at that.
... Practice mirth control. Use a conundrum!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:40:00
EID:7eeb 206a9d00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E4C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 09:08, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> You where either too young, too old, or a nerd!
AS> And yeah, probably too much the nerd. (I remember I had to explain to
AS> each of my brother's friends what the ending to the movie 2001 meant,
There are a lot of different versions to it. Wish they didn't
bring out the sequells, as they weren't all that good.
AS> The Who, Emerson Lake and Palmer, the Moody Blues...etched in
AS> nostalgia with me forever.
The first group was good, scratch the second, and give the
last one a lot of credit!
AS> I'd go down to his stereo system for something to listen to. It made
a
AS> good reciprochal arrangement.
Sounds just what my daughter and son do!
... Yes, I know I'm off-topic. Thank you for your concern.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: WHO CARES?
|Date: 10 Mar 96 19:59:00
EID:a6ca 206a9f60
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E4D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 00:01, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Which is the problem with xianity. It requires perfection which
DC> is not attainable, even by its god. Sisyphus would feel like
AS> No, in a way it's liberating. NOBODY can measure up to Jesus'
AS> standards, and it is clearly told to us if we say we are without sin,
As above: Goals only mean something if you do have a way of
not only obtaining them, but surpassing them.
Granted, some of them are no longer possible, do to various
reasons, such as age, weight, height, money, an a myriad of
other reasons. Those limits come into play at any of the possible
levels for whatever reason(s). However, there are other things that can
take the place of those goals, and have, as well as modifications
to them.
I have matched or exceeded some of my goals. I have also failed
to acheive some. I've either discarded a few. However, I continue
to find new goals and challenges to meet, such as continuing to
be the local grade school chess club teacher at chess! (It's
tough, but I'm sneaky!)
When anything becomes either too easy or impossible, it becomes
boring. You get your challenges not by follwing the easy or
unattainable path. All I can say is have fun out there and
don't beat your head against a brick wall.
... I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 10 Mar 96 20:41:00
EID:9c8e 206aa520
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E4E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 08:05, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Just how *few* comics have you collected?
AS> I didn't say it was ORGANIZED. I just said I knew it fairly well
Sounds a lot like my office, aka, dumpster!
AS> records, no system, but knows, by long familiarity, where everything
Same here!
DC> I bought a couple of "first editions", just because. Read them,
AS> And generally, those that only buy "first editions" end up losing
AS> money in the long run. There are a lot of hopeful number one issues
I did that only a couple of times. I decided to buy future ones
based on how well I thought I might like the story line.
AS> people stocked on the issues a month or two later, the "Reign of the
AS> Supermen" issues, which introduced a new Superboy, (Man of) Steel, the
As I mentioned, for some reason, I never could get into DC. I think
it had to do with the art work. Just too blah...
AS> Superboy, especially, who is a horny teenager now based in Hawaii,
AS> with powers of tactile telekinesis which simulate many of Superman's
AS> powers but, to his regret, not x-ray vision so he can look through
AS> women's clothing...)
I never did quite figure out how x-ray vision would be so selective
as to get through a layer of clothing and not what was underneath.
However, in the first Superman movie, they used the implication
rather neatly!
AS> Too true. Although Mephisto almost did a couple of times...
DC> The Surfer always sent him back to Hell, though. (to stay
AS> The Surfer was always Lee's most "religious" comic, even though there
AS> was another comic about a god, Thor. I always wondered if he was
Thor was more of a "non-violent" Conan through much of it's run. The
one's I remember the most are the ones where they are all fighting
Loki to prevent Ragnarok.
DC> I've got a fairly good collection of old MAD Magazines as well
DC> as a fairly extensive set of the 8x11 B&W Conans... Few, if any,
DC> duplicates in those, though!
AS> Roy Thomas was back working for Marvel, last I heard...I know he was
AS> doing some issues of Thor and Dr. Strange. I miss his All-Star
You mentioned "religious comics"... Dr Strange would probably
be considered the philosophical version.
AS> Ever read Robert E. Howard in the ORIGINAL? Thomas did a faithful
Never read any of REH, just know him through the Conan's.
AS> fascinating character (whom Thomas also put in comics for a while) is
AS> Solomon Kane, a moody, well built, gaunt PURITAN who would kill others
Got at least a few issues of that!
AS> vampires, sorcery, all the other stuff---sort of a cross between
AS> Cromwell, an Erroll Flynn movie, and Conan.
Cromwell seems like a very good analogy!
... I plan to live forever, or die trying.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Many Gods and Godesses
|Date: 10 Mar 96 20:45:00
EID:f6df 206aa5a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 893D0E4F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-07-96 04:08, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Well, we'll have to Sif through the problems, and not let it get to
AS> us. I have plenty of hair, but I hear worry will make you Balder.
DC> Well, just once more into the Freya, an Wo-dins to you...
DC> After all, it's just actors, we're Hamdahls for sure.
DC> Catch a rainbow and make a bridge out of it. Then come up with the
DC> cheer for its sucess: "I holler, you holler, we all Vahalla for
DC> ice cream!"
AS> Oh, you're just Bragi-ing. Iduna know why people have to do that. Why
AS> do they aSigyn more importance to themselves than they have? Hel of
a
AS> way to live.
My fingers are getting Thor of all this typing tonight. Besides,
I'm running out of good gods to through back at you. I'll have
to did out my Thor comics to get a few of the more obscure ones
to mention.
See ya Tiw's day...
... "Bother", said Pooh as he drank his fifth Pan Galactic Gargle
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: children
|Date: 12 Mar 96 08:55:33
EID:62b2 206c46e0
MSGID: 1:123/67 31453d68
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d6c
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
10 Mar 96 01:48, quoting Jim Germiquet to Shelby Sherman:
JG> Is "love" just another product of our imaginations ? Or is it "real"
?
Love is very real and there is evidence of love. All you have to do is
observe a mother with her new baby. Observation yields evidence. Now,
where is evidence of your god? Not evidence of your BELIEF in your god,
but evidence of god.
JG> And is "life" just a product of our imaginations.
Do you have a point to make?
JG> Take a life form, and seperate the "life" from it's physical body.
JG> Take just the "life" from that physical body and place it under a
JG> microscope. What do you see ? NOTHING ! Does that mean life is a
JG> product of your imagination ?
This senario is ridiculous. You try to project something that is unevidenced,
i.e., "life from its physical body" and then attempt to assign this
unevidenced "thing" to your unevidenced god.
JG> God has the same physical attributes as life, it is a force that
JG> moves
JG> people.
People are moved at AA meetings, KKK rallies, etc. Where is evidence of
your god?
JG> If people are spiritually dead, then God does not move them
JG> any more than people who are physically dead move. Put life into that
JG> body
JG> and it will move physically. Put the spirit of God into a person and
JG> he will move spiritually. What are the fruits of the spirit. Peace,
JG> joy, patience and love to name a few. That is how you tell if a person
JG> has a spirit. The exact nature of that spirit however is open to
JG> question. But a person moved by the spirit of God is moved by LOVE,
JG> according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
This is nothing but message Spam, feller. Where is your evidence?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 12 Mar 96 09:01:19
EID:8c86 206c4820
MSGID: 1:123/67 31453d8a
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d6d
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
10 Mar 96 01:48, quoting Jim Germiquet to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> Why shouldn't he? Do you have any evidence, OVER AND ABOVE the
SS>> evidence for tooth fairies and easter bunnies, for your god? A
SS>> yes or no will suffice.
JG> You make it so easy ! YES !
Good for you, you can preform a first in this echo. Present the evidence.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 12 Mar 96 09:02:00
EID:d5af 206c4840
MSGID: 1:123/67 31453e84
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d6e
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
10 Mar 96 01:48, quoting Jim Germiquet to Shelby Sherman:
JG> Who knows, evolution may very well be one of the mechanisms of
JG> creation. Maybe even that "big bang" is a mechanism of creation. I
JG> think of God more in terms of the "purpose" and "life force" and
JG> "strong nuclear force" of the universe.
Use Occam's Razor. In order to have a creation, you must first have
a creator.
JG> Where did the creator come from ? Where did the "big bang" come from.
JG> Both religions requiring faith to believe.
Baloney. Scientific "faith" of the big bang is based on observation and
evidence (the background radiation). What evidence is your faith based
on?
JG>> Then they have this "life" mystery they can't explain. you have a
JG>> bunch of amino acids, and all of a sudden one day they just
JG>> decide to get together and become "alive"
*********************************************************************
SS>> All of a sudden, huh? Do you know what a straw man is? Do you
SS>> know what a continuum is?
*********************************
JG> Bottom line is that there had to be a time where the first LIFE came
JG> into existence. Evolution shows that all life evolves from another
JG> life. There had to be some kind of quantum jump for that first life
to
JG> come into existence and THAT is what turns your theory of evolution
JG> into a religion based on faith.
Why did you fail to answer TWO questions that I asked?
JG> I am just trying to find out what this thing we call "life" really is.
JG> If you are so educated, YOU tell me exactly what life is and where it
JG> came from "in the beginning". What is life ? Pull it out of a body,
JG> place it under a microscope and describe it's physical appearance to
JG> me !! Don't describe the "cell" to me or a "dna molecule" describe the
JG> physical appearance of the "life" within that cell. Take it out of the
JG> cell and place it under a microscope and tell me what you see. THEN
I
JG> will tell you what God looks like. Deal ?
Science has defined and observed life. Where is your god?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 09 Mar 96 06:46:14
EID:3afd 206935c0
US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Al Schroeder,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
AS> People try to put us down...
AS> (Talkin' 'bout our generation...)
AS> Just because we get around...
AS>
NS> Ah...another dinosaur like myself. Sigh. Those were the days.
NS> Last night saw Dennis Miller, who said: When is Bill Clinton ever
NS> going to wise up and tell us the truth... "Yes. I inhaled, and
NS> then I drank the fuckin' bong water!"
AS> Too true. Tell the truth and shame Pat Buchanan. If he had just
AS> admitted it straight up, it probably wouldn't have been as big an
AS> issue.
I agree totally. How odd that would seem, though. Imagine if it
made his popularity in the polls go up, then all of them would have
to follow suit or be left behind. All of the political candidates
sorta forced to air all their dirty laundry in a burst of political
one-upsmanship. It would be a hoot. But I don't think it'll
happen. Someone would have to start the ball rolling, and nobody
will.
NS> Bong. Another word on the 'Huh' list... BTW, wasn't it
NS> supposed to be _MY_ generation? Or am I having a flashback?
AS> Boy, I haven't heard of people talking about a 'bong' in years...I
AS> can remember the bong shop I used to go into to get underground
AS> comics like ZAP Comics and the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers....
Young Lust Comix, Fat Freddie's Cat, Wonder WartHog, R. Crumb
Comix, etc. Man, that takes me back . . .
AS> Do you remember Nehru jackets? Sometimes I think I'm the only one
AS> who does...
I had a lime green nehru jacket back in either 1969 or 1970. Heh.
Ah, the fashion atrocities we foist on the world: white guys with
afros, platform shoes, polyester shirts, Angel french-cut slacks,
etc. *>shudder<*
AS> And no, you're not having a flashback, but obviously the sixties
AS> were better to me than I thought, or else it is creeping senility.
. . . and the horrible thing is, you'll never know for sure, right?
It's like the saying: the only nice thing about Altzheimers is that
you get to meet a lot of new friends every day . . . };)
AS> It IS "my" generation.
When I saw the post, I dug out my Stones cassettes and made my sons
listen to the song, right after Jumping Jack Flash. They thought I
was outta my head. Little twerps. Ah, once you get over the hill,
you start gaining speed . . .
AS> ... Nostalgia...all the good times you never had.
True. History can certainly be subjective, can't it? };)
... Any religion that rejects coffee worships a false god.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 09 Mar 96 06:48:32
EID:cfb4 20693600
Re: A tale of 2 inerrantists:
1% Norbert Sykes, 10% J.J. Hitt,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was
NS> an actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How
NS> cruel!
JH> Ah... but the name 'Ant Eater' isn't the name that Adam gave them.
JH> He knew them as Theodore and Bernice.
JH> And they didn't eat ants then (there were only two of them anyway:
JH> Tor and Hildegard). They ate NOODLES.
Thank you God Hitt for the clarification. You're obviously a
full-service Deity. Hmmm . . . Theodore and Bernice the noodle
slurpers. Nice ring to it. Why were the ants more Germanic, if I
may ask . . .
... At least Democratic Presidents can remember HOW to have sex!!!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Our Daily White Trash Alien
|Date: 09 Mar 96 06:52:25
EID:4de3 20693680
Our Daily White Trash Alien:
1% George Mooth, 10% J.J. Hitt,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JH> The Grey White Trash Theory
JH> By Don Teal
JH> Copyright 1996
I see that Jeff Foxworthy has a nice lucrative potential lawsuit on
his hands here. I hope he collects big time from this goober! };)
... **FLASH** Energizer bunny arrested, charged with battery.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Our Daily Alien
|Date: 09 Mar 96 06:56:24
EID:16b9 20693700
Our Daily Alien:
1% George Mooth, 10% J.J. Hitt,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JH> A SPACE ALIENS DATE BOOK
I'll have you know that I got a pain in my side from laughing at
this one. }:) Nice to see that SOMEONE still has the ol' work
ethic around here.
... Speak the truth, but leave immediately after. -- Slovenian Proverb
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Revelation
|Sub: Re: Prophecy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 07:03:09
EID:c9d9 20693860
Prophecy:
1% All, 10% Revelation,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
This thing is kinda obscure, so I thought I'd translate it a bit
for all of us:
Re> Beware the Jew Avoid Marvin Weinstein,
Re> is the child of the Devil, son of that shrew Rebecca,
Re> and he belongs to the who, being a good mensch, belongs to
Re> Synagogue of Satan the Rotary.
Where do these micro-encephaletic butt-cracks come from, anyway?
... Revelation's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: >> Ubik: Another goddamn BBS << (1:203/289.0)
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Hello!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 07:06:59
EID:2861 206938c0
Hello!:
1% J.j. Hitt, 10% Karl Schneider,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JH> KM> But while I lived, regardless of whether God exist or not, I
JH> KM> will have lived my life for something that I believed in, right
JH> KM> or wrong.
JH> Have you ever met anyone who claimed they were living their life
JH> for something they didn't believe in?
KS> Uh, I'm not so sure. I live my life for sex, but I'm not sure it
KS> exists...
Ah, but you still have faith that it exists, right? };) After
all, there are scads of photos of it and they can't be all doctored
unless it's one big conspiracy and . . . and . . . hmmm . . .
never mind . . .
... "Have you noticed how little I have lied since my death?" R.M. Nixon
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Norbert Sykes
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Re: US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net
|Date: 09 Mar 96 07:18:40
EID:20f6 20693a40
US Bans AbortionSpeak on 'Net:
1% Terry Liberty-Parker, 10% David Worrell,
40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
TP> Do you actually HAVE an opinion on the AbortionSpeak ban?
DW> Yes, I do. I have not chosen to share that opinion with you. The
DW> opinion that I have chosen to share with you is that you are a
DW> frightened, paranoid little git whose life is so empty that you have
DW> to dream up vast conspiracies in order to make yourself feel
DW> important.
You forgot the part about the vestigial micro-genitals . . .
... Eunuchs for PCs? I don't think I want to know...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Definitions
|Date: 12 Mar 96 10:41:49
EID:d093 206c5520
MSGID: 1:123/67 31455597
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 23837d6a
PID: GED3 2.5 124LM3
10 Mar 96 01:48, quoting Jim Germiquet to Sean Mccullough:
JG> You must have a very limited vocabulary, because my dictionary gives
JG> over a dozen defintions for the word "spirit".
JG> Do a bit more reading and perhaps you can discuss this subject on a
JG> more informed level. :-)
Leprechaun (noun) An elf of Irish folklore.
*I guess they exist, right?*
Vampire (noun) A reantimate corpse that is believed to rise from
the grave and suck the blood of sleeping persons.
*It's in the dictionary...sleep carefully*
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: fear of God 1/2
|Date: 11 Mar 96 02:40:22
EID:cbef 206b1500
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3143932e
"The God of Fear"
Susan Crain
I was just 7 years old when the priests and nuns of my grammar school decided
for me that it was time to go one on one with God. Father Murphy started
coming to our classroom once a week in order to properly prepare us for
our first confessions. "You can't keep secrets from the Lord!" he said,
an Irish fire blazing on his cheeks and forehead, and in a voice so loud
we shriveled like prunes in our chairs. "He knows our sins, so don't try
to keep anything back from Him."
At home I sat with pen and paper to make my list and went through the ten
commandments one by one, desperately searching for a sin so great and so
difficult to confess that it would explain what I felt was a completely
irrational terror of stepping into that confessional. But I could find
none, and the prospect of admitting to God that I had not eaten my green
beans at the dinner table just didn't seem enough to warrant what soon became
an all-consuming fear. I couldn't sleep or concentrate on my schoolwork,
and my mother took to taking my temperature every day after I came home
from school and huddled fetally in my bed.
You can pick her out from across the church if you look carefully. She's
the shortest child in the whole second grade, made even shorter now by the
manner in which she is sitting: scrunched down as if she wished she could
melt and vanish into the wooden pews. She rises and stands rigidly as one
of the Sisters waves her row over to stand in front of the confessional.
Her knee socks fall down around the ankles of her scrawny legs. She is frozen.
It takes a rough push from the girl behind her to force her to walk again.
She is the fourth child in the line, then the third, second and first.
She pretends to be reassured by the fact that each child in front of her
comes out of the confessional looking much the same as when they went in,
some of them in fact even smiling (with relief, she imagines.) But she
is not reassured. On the contrary, she is very sure now that when she steps
into the confessional she will begin to fall. Down, down, down into a deep,
dark pit whose walls are covered with an unknown slime-like substance, down
into a laughter of hot terror. She will fall down into Hell, because she
can't think of any real sins to confess, but she is certain that she has
committed them. God knows her sins, but she does not.
She stands there shaking with her hand on the doorknob for too long. The
Sister's eyebrows crease in disapproval and the little girl gathers all
she has into opening that door and bursting into the little room like a
shot. But the space is no bigger than a closet and she goes head first into
the opposing wall, falling back on her rear end. Her hands touch the icy
marble floor and she whispers a small thanks that it is there. Already
she is aware of the lump that is forming above her left eye, but she raises
herself slowly and finds the kneeler with her fingers. The priest next
door pulls aside the curtain and she starts in a pitifully squeaky voice:
"Bless me Father for I have sinned." She thinks frantically in an attempt
to create a sin worthy of all that she has suffered. "I - I - I don't eat
my dinner sometimes even when my Mother says that some people are starving.
And, and - I said the word 'damn' to my brother." The priest is quiet for
a moment and then asks her if she is truly sorry for these sins, and she
says that she is. He tells her to say three Hail Marys and three Our Fathers
and then blesses her. She knows she is free to go, but she cannot move
because she can't believe that is it over. "You may go now and say your
prayers," the priest says. She leaves the confessional and returns to her
seat. A heavy fog of incense drifts around her and she gets up and runs
to the small dank room where baptisms are done and vomits all over the floor.
When she is done she glances up, trying to catch her breath, sees the crucified
feet of Jesus and screams.
(continued)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: Fear of God 2/2
|Date: 11 Mar 96 02:42:57
EID:cb1f 206b1540
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31439376
(Continued from Previous Message)
When I got home that day after my first confession, I had a mild stomach
ache. It soon escalated into a pain not unlike a knife being thrust into
and out of my insides, a pain so great I could not keep from screaming.
My Mother rushed me to the emergency room, where the doctors could find
nothing physically wrong with me. This happened every single time I was
required to go to confession for the rest of second grade. After it stopped,
I found that my fear had been replaced with anger and bitterness. I didn't
love God anymore, if I ever had, and I didn't care, an attitude which has
remained with me into adulthood. I think now that after that year I had
come to believe that any entity which produced so negative a response in
me was not worthy of my respect. It took a few more years for me to realize
the inanity of having to "create" a sin: in not being aware of any way
in which I had broken the ten commandments, I was forced to break one of
them with my lie about swearing.
Although I espouse atheism now, it is for reasons far removed from this
event in my young life. And I cannot very well remain angry at a being
in whose existence I do not believe. I do retain a very bitter attitude
toward those who I feel were at fault, however: the clergy members who
so confused and frightened me and the Catholic church in general. While
it may be well and good for people to have an outlet in admitting their
wrong-doings to a priest, I still don't believe that 7-year-olds should
be forced into a practice which condemns them as guilty before they've even
lived long enough to do anything that would be considered deviant. As I
try to explain rationally to my own 8-year-old why one should not cheat
or lie or steal, the thought of her standing outside the confessional waiting
to admit the evils of her ways to the omniscient Almighty becomes laughable,
if not absurd. Does using fear as a deterrent really produce rational human
beings who behave in positive ways? Or does it only produce anger and bitterness
and eventually result in the behavior it was intended to prevent in the
first place? My daughter lives in fear only of things like being grounded
or having certain priveleges taken away, but she does not have to fear me
or the mysterious retributions of some all-knowing punisher in the heavens,
nor do I think she should be required to. It turns out she's a pretty well-behaved
kid regardless.
After her third confession, and after her third visit to the emergency room
with the knives in her stomach, her Mother left her alone in the car so
that she could speak to the doctor alone. The knives had abated and she
sat with quiet tears on her cheeks, the smell of incense still in her clothes.
She had found more to say at her last two confessions, and she hadn't had
to lie those times. She had been unable to concentrate on homework and
was able to confess what Sister Mary called the sin of procrastination,
as well as the evils of fighting with her little brother and sneaking a
Hershey's Kiss before dinner. As she looked out of the car window, big
drops of rain began to fall here and there against it. She whispered to
herself, "Damn." Once, and then again, and again. Waves of anger came
up in her as they had never before done in her short life, until finally
she was screaming: "Damn! Damn damn damn damn damn damn damn!"
---
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 09 Mar 96 08:05:00
EID:ffa1 206940a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 05117CEA
JH> Do you have access to a shortwave receiver? I know where you
JH> can hear hour after hour of this racist crap. The material is
JH> so wildly bizare it's hard to believe it's not some complicated
JH> joke. Unfortunately, they're dead serious. They're also organized,
JH> funded, armed and dangerous.
Stuff like Grigor-Scott's? Followers organized, funded, armed, and
dangerous?
You have depressed me more than you know. Still, forewarned is
forearmed.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: atheist hypocrisy
|Date: 09 Mar 96 08:01:00
EID:70f4 20694020
MSGID: 1:116/19 05118ABE
AS> As for irrationality...it is at least the Christian religion's
AS> stand that we are sent here not at our own bidding, but for a purpose.
KC> Which renders the concept of Free Will(tm) useless.
Not necessarily. One used to be drafted to become a good soldier. There
is
no guarentee you will BECOME one. Kids are sent to school to become
well-educated, thinking individuals. We see many failures on THAT score,
too. In each case you can choose or not choose. But quite frankly, you
have no choice in being BORN. You are thrust in the Wheel of Karma whether
you will or no.
AS> And despite the fact that we hope for Heaven, we don't check out at
AS> OUR convenience, but when He's ready for us to.
KC> Which renders the concept of Free Will(tm) useless.
No. It is our choice to be Christian. And for many of us, that's one of
the ground rules. If you join the club, you don't immediately dispense
with the club rules. Obviously others check out at their own convenience.
AS> I'm not a big fan of suicide. It doesn't give me a feeling of high
AS> tragedy but of embarassment, that someone doesn't have the guts to
AS> bear temporary problems.
KC> Exactly. I don't deny that I've actually thought of committing suicide
KC> in my life -- that I couldn't take any more of whatever angst I was
KC> experiencing at that time in my life -- but then I remember how lucky
KC> I actually am, how my problems don't really extend as far as my mind
KC> wants me to think, and that they will eventually go away.
I once came within a step of committing suicide, when I was a teenager,
and was confusing hormonal imbalances and peer pressure with actual
insanity, and wanted to end it all before I became a danger or a "burden"
to others. Even if mistaken, it was a noble motive, right? And I was too
chicken to do it. I went back to High School and called my parents, and
yes, I scared them to death...but when I saw the concern on their faces,
I
saw HOW mistaken I was that they would be better off without me. If I had
made that step, I would have done something that would have haunted them
the rest of their lives. They would have always said, "Could I have done
something different and he would be alive today?" My father, who was in
sales, was into social drinking and sometimes did so a little too heavily
(he later gradually weaned himself from it) but I suspect I would have
driven him the other way. My mother, who was like Edith Bunker only more
intelligent, would have gotten even more fidgety and nervous. My
siblings...I dunno. We all pay the "what if" games.
And despite years of loneliness, I would have never found Barb, and
found happiness far more than I deserve, nor would my three kids be in the
world.
I am so glad I did not take that step. I would be assasinating the
person I am now, despite the fact that I thought I was doing it for
others, to "spare" them pain. People are tougher than they think. They can
put up with a lot more than we think...or even THEY think. To shut the
door on possibility until you have to seems to me to be almost criminal
negligence.
We will all die some time. No need to hurry it.
There's a poem...my references are burned, so I'm doing this from
memory...
"Do not go gentle into the dark night...
"Rage, rage against the dying of the light..."
Written by Dylan Thomas or a contemporary. It sums up my feelings pretty
well.
KC> At times, it was the only thing that kept me alive.
Take it from me, Kenneth. I spent years in awful loneliness. But there is
light at the end of the tunnel.
KC> I wonder if that's a perverse form of optimism?
Whatever works.
... My apologies if that made any sense at all...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Ann Nunn
|Sub: autism
|Date: 09 Mar 96 08:03:00
EID:5684 20694060
MSGID: 1:116/19 05119C7A
AS> Two of my three sons are autistic. They will probably NEVER form a
AN> Do we have a scientific clue yet about what causes autism?
Not really. There is quite a lot of research, and obviously there is a
genetic component...you have a one in ten thousand chance of having an
autistic child. If you have another, it's one in ten. I suspect it's like
cancer, with a variety of causes. It may be linked to "fragile X"
syndrome in SOME cases, but not in all. Many researchers feel it has to
do
with sensory overload...that the autistic child does not screen out
sensory impressions as much as other children can. So the sensations are
so overwhelming that when they get old enough to form language-making
abilities the barrage of sensations keeps them from making the logical
leaps needed to develop language well. Temple Grandin, one of the few
autistic people ever to get a degree or write a book, wrote graphically
about how a steamboat's whistle caused her physical pain. (She also,
interestingly enough, stated she would not be normal if she could.) There
has been nothing like that in either of our families...my father was an
only child and my mother only had one sibling, so I have a small network
of cousins compared to a lot of people...and Barb had some distant cousin
who was retarded, but that is true of most people, certainly no one in her
immediate family. Some other children exhibit autistic behavior when they
really have a "brain allergy"---allergic to a certain kind of food. This
one boy was classified as autistic when it turned out he was really
allergic to milk, and when taken off it, would act normal. (Although he
had years of catching up to do.)
And HERE's a research thesis topic...is man the only UNautistic animal?
And is our language capacity linked to the fact that our senses are not
as
sharp as most other animals?
... Keep a holy curiosity.--Einstein.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:06:00
EID:7e2b 206918c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0511AD96
AS> However...well, let me ask you a question before I make my point.
AS> Will you concede that their deaths are proof in their belief in
AS> what they espoused? That--unless they had no chance to recant or
AS> change their mind (Joseph Smith MIGHT be an example of that, although
AS> I suspect he was pretty insane) that their willingness to die for
AS> their beliefs indicates the trueness of their beliefs in their own
AS> minds? That the kamikaze pilots believed in the divinity of their
AS> emperor and the rightness of their
AS> cause? Or the Bab? Or Baha'ullah's imprisonment? Or Joan of Arc's
AS> martyrdom? Or for that matter, Koresh's followers or Jones'
AS> followers? That the willingness to die for such a belief system
AS> indicates that they TRULY BELIEVED that Koresh was the Lamb of God,
AS> the Bab was a messenger of God, etc.?
KD> I concede that their willingness to die is evidence for strong
KD> belief, yes. Strong belief on the part of a human being does not give
KD> evidence for a deity, however.
One step at a time. So you concede they truly believed in what they
espoused. Which includes...
AS> other religions, martyrdom or suffering or imprisonment or not. They
AS> also
AS> claimed to have WITNESSED Him...returning from the dead. ALL of them.
KD> Nope, not all of them. And not one of them was a witness to enough to
Acts 5:29. "In reply Peter and the apostles said, 'Obedience to God comes
before obedience to men; it was the God of our ancestors who raised up
Jesus, but it was you who had him executed by hanging on a tree. By His
own right hand God has now raised Him up to be leader and savior, to give
repentence and forgiveness through Him to Israel. WE ARE WITNESSES TO ALL
THIS, we and the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey them.'
This so infuriated them (the Sanhedrin) that they wanted to put them to
death." The above says they DID all claim to be witnesses of Jesus' being
resurrected--i.e., walking around after death...and WERE in danger of
death because of it. Gamaliel's speech calmed them down, but, Acts 5:40,
"they had the apostles called in, gave orders for them to be flogged,"
i.e., they were tortured for their claims. ALL of them. Also, Acts 4:33,
"The apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus
with great power, and they were all given great respect." I.E., they all
claimed the Resurrection.
Which you have conceded above, that if they are willing to die for their
belief, they truly believed it. Now, if you have a dozen individuals
agreeing on an occurance, and you have every reason to believe each
individual believed it, and if they corroborate each other...I leave the
conclusion to you.
KD> satisfy a court of law or a scientist. Further, their "witness" is
Okay. Now, notice, I am NOT saying I can prove this in a present-day court
of law, since obviously I don't have affadavits of a witness. But suppose,
hypothetically, that a dozen people come in and testify under oath about
a
particular happening, and THEY ALL AGREE? What would the PRESUMPTION of
the court be? That agreement between multiple witnesses lends authority.
KD> contained only in the Bible itself, and never independently verified.
Not totally, even if you exclude the Bible accounts, which we will return
to. Josephus, for instance, writes of the death of James, the brother of
Jesus and head of the Jerusalem Church, and places it circa 60 AD. (I will
freely concede that the reference to Jesus elsewhere is obviously added
on
in Josephus.) Suetonius writes of Christian activity in Rome, circa 60 AD
that occurs within the lifetime of living witnesses to the original
happenings.
Now, you dismiss "The BIble" as ONE source. That's a misapprehension. It
is not a monolithic document compiled by one author, but a variety of
accounts. It is demonstrable, if nothing else but sylistic grounds, that
the four Gospel accounts are by four different hands. So we have FOUR
seperate attempts at narration/biography (the Gospels), one history
(Acts), 13 letters by one contemporary intimately connected with the
movement (Paul), two letters by Peter (although I have my doubts about the
second being actually by Peter)...a witness, three letters by John, also
a
witness (and demonstrably the same author as the one who claimed to be an
"eyewitness" in the Gospel of John), one by Jude (who seems to have been
yet another brother of Jesus and James), Hebrews, which nobody knows WHO
wrote, and Revelation, which appears to be an Apocalyptic allegory perhaps
narrated by John and taken down by a disciple, or entirely composed by a
disciple (stylistic differences between Revelation and John's gospel and
letters argue that).
For someone in the ANCIENT world, that's pretty good. Excellent, in
fact. You can't prove Virgil existed with as many accounts (yes, he left
behind writings. So what? Many here have claimed "so-and-so" didn't really
write such-and-such letter in the Bible, it's just a CLAIM. Well, so is
the authorship of the AENIAD. One can't deny one without leaving it open
to deny a whole host of ancient attributions.)
Suppose everything about the existence of, say, John Lennon was gathered
into one large volume. Suppose, over the centuries, other accounts got
corrupted. Suppose that one large volume has multiple accounts--McCarthy's
comments on John, Ringo's, George Harrison's, Mick Jagger's, Roger
Daltry's, etc. Then, two thousand years later, someone says, "We can't
believe anything about John Lennon...after all, we have only ONE book about
him left, and it isn't independently verified". The NT is in much the same
boat. They tried, as best they could to gather as many documents that they
thought were authentic about Jesus together in one volume. I suspect, if
they left them seperate, you would have more respect for them. But it is
still the same number of authors.
KD> this information about the Baha'i is independently
KD> verified/verifiable.
Well, DUH! It only occured two centuries ago, as opposed to two thousasnd
years. That DOES make a difference. And of course, I think those who lived
closer to the Crucifixion DID have access to a lot more information than
we do today. (Eusebius was given entry to the entire Roman record keeping
system by Constantine, for instance.) There are only two or three accounts
of Caesar's assasination, for instance. And some of them may be relying
on
a single source. There are four accounts of Jesus' death and resurection.
And again...religious martyrs have been dying for centuries. That is
nothing unusual. Nor is the religious person claiming to be in contact
with God or a prophet of God unusual.
What is unusual is that the followers AGREE that they saw Jesus AFTER He
had died...alive.
AS> of the apostles (a contemporary, though not a witness in the same
AS> sense--Paul's vision by itself proves nothing) that they ALL claimed
AS> to have seen such, that they endured flogging by the Sanhedrin for
AS> preaching such, that some of them were imprisoned and at least one
of
AS> them died in Acts for saying such (and tradition gives us more,
AS> tradition that even a renowned historian like Michael Grant feels is
AS> true in Peter's case, for instance) than we are left with a dozen
AS> people---actually more, there was
KD> Since all of them are contained in the Bible and none of them are
KD> factual, you can't use them as evidence.
BZZZTTT!!!! There speaks your bias. "None of them are factual"--that is
what we are DEBATING, remember? That's like putting a witness on the stand
and saying, "Of course, you can't believe what this person says," before
they say anything. "Since all of them are in the Bible"--and why should
we
regard the accounts in the Bible, AT THE VERY LEAST, as we would any other
historical documents (notice the plural, since they are varied accounts)
and examine them and see where they agree and disagree? On what a priori
bias can you dismiss them SIMPLY because they are in the Bible?
I venture to say you would not treat any other documents from the
ancient world the same way.
... He died to take away your sins, not your mind.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 09 Mar 96 00:04:00
EID:7e2b 20690080
MSGID: 1:116/19 0511B886
AS> all lying? Then why did they voluntarily die for what they knew was
a
AS> lie?
KD> Same could be said for Baha'i. And the records of those deaths and
But the Baha'i didn't die for what they knew was a lie. I think the Bab
DID think he was in communication with God, as did Baha'ullah. I may have
my own opinions on whether they were RIGHT or not, but I certainly grant
their sincerity. But it is one thing to imagine a voice in your head, it
is quite ANOTHER thing to have a dozen people hear the same voice...or to
see the same person, AFTER his death.
KD> imprisonments are verifiable, UNLIKE any of those you claim. All of
KD> that is simply from the Bible.
But, it is NOT simply the Bible. Suppose someone got together four
biographies of Elvis, by four different authors......
one history of fifties rock and roll, 13 letters of
Priscilla, two by Elvis' brother, three by the Colonel, one allegorical
tribute to Elvis, and put it under one title, called THE ELVIS BOOK.
Suppose further, given the way books decay, that in two thousand years THE
ELVIS BOOK is all that remains of the records of Elvis' existence. What
would you say to a debator in 4000 AD who dismissed the idea of Elvis
because ALL the information about Elvis was contained in one book, even
though inside that larger book it had all that information by all those
different authors? The Bible isn't a "simple" anything.
Certainly we have evidence of at least one death (James, in Josephus)
and a general persecution (Nero's, in Seutonius). We certainly have more
accounts of the Resurrection of Jesus than we have of, say, Hannibal's
crossing of the Alps...with elephants, yet!
AS> It's not like they were holding vigil over His body. They were
AS> hiding. Members of the Pharisee class, like Nicodemus and Joseph of
AS> Arithamea had Him buried. Everything indicates that they (like many
AS> here) if they
AS> understood the tale of His rising again, they thought He meant as a
AS> parable or in a metaphorical sense.
KD> Correct, they weren't watching over his body. That's exactly why it
KD> doesn't wash.
You wouldn't believe them unless they were sealed up in a cavern,
sealed by a stone, with a rotting body? Or do you mean because they
weren't standing in constant vigil over the body? But even _I_ would have
more doubts if it was the DISCIPLES who maintained a guard over the body.
But the body was guarded...by guards of either the Romans or the
Sanhedrin, who had no vested interest in Jesus.
AS> Viva la difference.
KD> Any difference is in favor of the Mormons and Baha'i, where the
KD> information is factual.
You think so? I ought to take you at your word...for if you knew much
about either, you would know both Mormons and Baha'i think Jesus WAS a
divine messenger from God (the Baha'i, for instance, regard Jesus as one
Incarnation of the Divine, as is Krishna, Buddha, Moses, and Baha'ullah.)
But I would be perfectly willing to concede that the Bab and the
Baha'ullah felt they were in contact with God. Joseph Smith? I can think
of one point where he seems to have plagiarized things in the Book of
Mormon, but I think he was crazy enough to believe his own story, at least
towards the end. (And his lynching was a rather improptu affair, nothing
he could have easily avoided.) I would certainly be willing to grant their
belief in such, that they perhaps really thought they heard voices, even
that Joseph Smith really thought he saw an angel. Just as you, in another
post, granted me the sincerity of the disciples of Jesus.
But look at what a different thing THEY are claiming. They are claiming
they saw their beloved leader, AFTER HE DIED, alive again. That they ate
with Him, touched Him, etc. That they all saw Him.
It's a different claim. It's a much more specific claim. It is an event,
not an opinion. And it is claimed by many, not just one.
... I considered athiesm once, but there weren't enough holidays!!!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 09 Mar 96 00:08:00
EID:3b3c 20690100
MSGID: 1:116/19 0511C628
AS> thousand other religions, martyrdom or suffering or imprisonment or
AS> not. They also claimed to have WITNESSED Him...returning from the
AS> dead. ALL of them.
DC> No, Al... There isn't a single direct account that says that
DC> anyone say him rise from the dead. Not only that, at least
If you mean were they in the tomb, no. They certainly witnessed Him up and
walking around after He died, though.
DC> one of the gospels tells of all the disciples running away
DC> before the supposed death occured upon the cross. The didn't
DC> even have first hand knowledge that he was truly dead.
On the contrary. The Gospel of John has John, at least, right there. It
is
John to whom Jesus gives the care of his mother, and it is John who
reports the stabbing of Jesus' side. Besides--surely you are not saying
that if the Romans or the Sanhedrin had any doubts in their mind, they
would not have placed him in a TOMB, but either in jail or back on the
cross.
... Me? A skeptic? I trust you have proof. . .
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Captain AL SCHROEDER?
|Date: 09 Mar 96 00:05:00
EID:1d1a 206900a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0511E0A4
JH> Captain Midnight was a 1940's radio drama about a masked guy
JH> who fought Nazis with the help of underage American boys and
JH> girls. Just why these pre-teen sidekicks were running around
JH> in occupied France was never fully explained.
He was also a comic book hero published by Fawcett comics, but the radio
program came first. Kid sidekicks never made much sense...what sort of
idiot puts young kids in danger, like Batman and Robin, or Captain America
and Bucky? Bucky's death is one of the most realistic things that ever
happened in Marvel comic.
... Mr. Custer? Can I be excused for the rest of the afternoon?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Chesterton
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:01:00
EID:9413 20691820
MSGID: 1:116/19 0511FA58
JB> Al, I've just started reading some of G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown
JB> stories. In the introduction, it says that Chesterton never held a
JB> grudge against any other religion, with the exception of Quakers. No
JB> explanation for that remark and I can't seem to find any other
JB> information about it.
JB> Any idea why? I'm really curious about that remark.
I'm not sure. I know he didn't have much use for Scottish Protestantism,
and he suffered from the common prejudice of his time against modern Jews
that was common in English society. Here's a paragraph that he had Father
Brown say, in "The Hammer of God".
Here he is speaking about a blacksmith who is a Scottish presbyterian.
"'Look at that blacksmith,for instance,' went on Father Brown, calmly; "a
good man, but not a Christian--hard, imperious, unforgiving. Well, his
Scotch relgion was made up by men who prayed on hills and high crags, and
learn to look down on the world more than to look up at heaven. Humility
is the mother of giants. One sees great things from the valley; only small
things from the peak." It is an ugly paragraph in its essence, and I say
that with all my admiration for G.K. Chesterton in other things
intact...saying that because the blacksmith is not a Presbyterian, Father
Brown did not consider him a Christian. Of course, it could mean that he
didn't consider him a GOOD Christian, in the way John Prewitt would use
the word Christian.
I have THE ANNOTATED INNOCENCE OF FATHER BROWN, with notes by Martin
Gardner, who admires G.K. greatly, even though he is not a Christian, but
rather a philosophical theist. In speaking of his attitude towards modern
Jews, Gardner says of G.K.,
"Although many of Chesterton's lifelong firends were Jews--forgive the
hackneyed apology--there is no denying the fact that, like his brother
Cecil and his friend Hillaire Belloc, and like many another Christian
writer in Edwardian England, Chesterton allowed numerous antisemitic
remarks to mar his writings. Among mystery writers Agatha Christian and
Dorothy Sayers were often guilty of the same practice." Unfortunately,
G.K. was a product of his times, and although I really cannot recall a
case of out-and-out antisemitic remarks but I can think of things like
referring to "Jews" as a class, rather than a religion. But in that he was
merely a product of his times, the same way Abraham Lincoln spoke of the
"natural inferiority" of the negro even while freeing him. All of us are
products of our times.
I don't recall him saying anything about Quakers, but G.K. wrote almost
as many essays as say, Isaac Asimov, and I certainly haven't read them
all. I hope what I said will NOT put you off Father Brown...such remarks
from Brown or G.K. are few and far between, and in general one is
impressed by his humanity and thoughtfulness. The "Hammer of God" is one
of my favorites, as is the "Eye of Apollo", and the "Miracle of Father
Brown" in another volume, where he was believed to have been resurrected,
and Father Brown told the people, "God bless you and give you more sense."
and also the statement that I am using for a tagline below.
... "Miracles are not so cheap as all that."--Father Brown.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CHURCHES
|Date: 09 Mar 96 01:08:00
EID:fb8b 20690900
MSGID: 1:116/19 051207E6
AS> I don't think I could EVER...no matter how long I talked, or tried
AS> to metaphorize or make an analogy or anything...tell a two-year-old
AS> all the ins and outs of our electorial system, or how a television
AS> REALLY works, not just the Mr. Wizard explanation or explain an income
AS> tax form. And a two-year-old is just a smaller stage of the same life
AS> form. Even a virus is closer to me than God is to me in that sense,
AS> since a virus is part of the same evolutionary tree, and a god would
AS> be totally different frmo you and I. It would be the height of
AS> arrogance to think we can comprehend ALL the motives of an infinite
AS> being. In fact, I would be more suspicious of a belief-system that
AS> asserts EVERY answer could be comprehended by human beings. If that's
AS> a copout, so
AS> be it. To me it is more comprehending the enormous gulf inbetween.
RH> I understand that Al, and it may well be that God is directing our
RH> evolution toward some end of his own and could care LESS about us
RH> intermediate stages.
That's of course, a possibility, too. But few us condone needless cruelty
to animals. Even if there are evolutionary stages after us that God is
REALLY concerned with, they will not come about unless we are here. (And
there are some interesting arguments that, since we can shape our
enviorment rather than it shaping us, that we MIGHT--not must, but
might--be at the end of our evolution.) So I think He cares for us, even
if we are not the end product. But we may have to do something similar to
being given shots by the vet, which a dog will never understand..why his
beloved master lets a stranger stick him with a needle.
RH> But that does not make it any more acceptable to me....
Well, I might ACCEPT it. I don't know that it makes it any EASIER...
... Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 09 Mar 96 02:00:00
EID:00c1 20691000
MSGID: 1:116/19 0512131C
BJ> Undoubtedly, not as much as _I've_ missed being away for nearly a
BJ> year!! It's good to be back...=)
Good to have you back, Becke.
... Don't ask me; I was hired for my looks.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:03:00
EID:38f0 20691860
MSGID: 1:116/19 051220A0
AS> Yes, there's that. But you will concede the honesty of the disciples,
AS> then? They told the truth AS THEY KNEW IT. I took the hoax theory as
AS> a subset of the "telling the truth" bit.
RH>
RH> No, you were saying that they told the truth, thus proving that Jesus
RH> indeed rose.
Then I expressed myself clumsily, and I apologize. Let's put it this
way...millions of people told the truth when they said they SAW David
Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear. But most who watched
were sophisticated enough to know that even though they honestly saw the
image disappear, there was more happening than met the eye. I do think
they saw Jesus, truly, and that it was NOT a trick, and I may have been
anticipating.
AS> Let's see now. We will make the assumption, if you will, that the
AS> main parts are true, excepting only the miraculous parts. Fair enough?
RH> OK.
Good.
AS> Then we require the cooperation of, at a minimum (a) whoever thought
AS> up the plot (b) the centurion who pierced His side and anyone who
RH> a) Jesus
He would definitely have to be involved. he would not have to be the one
who thought it up. He would need someone, at the least, to bribe everyone
involved.
RH> b) Not necessarily in on it. Maybe just sloppy, maybe didn't happen.
Big gush of blood and water (oddly enough, not mixed, which WOULD happen
if you pierced it a certain way but is not what you would expect to happen
in MOSt cases---hence, more likely not to be made up.). If sloppy, we're
still talking major loss of blood here. If didn't happen...that would be
extremely odd. Legs were broken to speed and ensure death routinely, or
the side was pierced, to guard AGAINST one surviving crucifixion. We have
any number of references for that. (Legs broken speeds suffocaion, which
is really how crucifixion works...eventually, you breathe more shallowly
until you can't breathe at all.)
AS> might have examined Him afterwards and (c) those who prepared Him for
AS> burial and the guards at the tomb. (Unless there was a secret
RH> c) No one prepared him. The women were coming back later for that.
Matthew 27:59. "So Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean shroud and
put it in his own new tomb that he had hewn out of the rock."
"he granted the corpse to Joseph, who brought a shroud, took Jesus down
from the cross, wrapped him in the shroud and laid him in a tomb which had
been hewn out of the rock. He then rolled a stone against the entrance of
the tomb. Mary of Magdala and Mary the mothe of Joset were watching and
took note of where he lay." Luke 25:54. "He then took it (the body) down,
wrapped it in a shroud and put him in a tomb which was hewn in stone in
which no one had yet been laid. It was Preperation Day and the Sabbath was
imminent. Meanwhile the women who had come from Galilee with Jesus were
following behind. They took note of the tomb and of the position of the
body." John 19:38. "After this, Joseph of Arimathaea, who was a disciple
of Jesus---though a secret one because he was afraid of the Jews--asked
Pilate to let him remove the body of Jesus. Pilate gave permission, so
they came and took it away. Nicodemus came as well--the same one who had
first come to Jesus at night-time--and he brought a mixture of myrrh and
aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds. They took the body of Jesus and
wrapped it with the spices in linen clothes, following the Jewish burial
custom." The women were going to add some more spices and such to Jesus'
body, but Jesus' body was definitely handled, wrapped in a cloth, as well
as Nicodemus' spices.
RH> d) There is no mention of them afterwards. Bribed, killed, executed?
Read Matthew 28:11. The remarkable thing is that the Sanhedrin COULD bribe
the guards to say the disciples came when they were asleep, but they
undertook to explain to the guards' superiors, if they heard of this, and
put things right so the guards would not get in trouble. And the fact that
it was a false story is proven by the code of Roman military law which
says, if the guards DID fall asleep on duty, they coudl be executed. Even
if it were the truth, it is the LAST thing the guards would have admitted,
UNLESS someone was making sure Pilate did not execute them for dereliction
of duty. Pilate would probably do this if the leading body or the high
priest of the land asked it. Otherwise he would have doubtless killed
them.
AS> tunnel within the tomb, which I am willing to concede is a
AS> possibility.) By far the likeliest candidates would be Nicodemus
AS> and/or Joseph of Arithemea. I don't think, given the climate of the
RH> Joseph. Rich enough for the bribes.
Well, Nicodemus may have been rich, too.
AS> times, and given Pilate's general character, we can expect him to be
a
AS> co-conspirator. Tiberius would execute him in an instant for pulling
a
AS> hoax that would endanger the hold Herod had on the populance, who was
AS> an ally of Rome. Nor would Pilate really have any reason to keep a
AS> Jewish rabble-rouser alive, he would be much safer to Pilate dead.
AS> Ditto the Sanhedrin as a whole, and the high priest's family.
AS> Let's examine the idea. Jesus found that Nicodemus and/or Joseph of
AS> Arithimea were favorable to His ideas. So He had a secret meeting
AS> with them, and said, "You have contacts with the Roman soldiers. I
AS> want you to bribe some who might be present at the Crucifixions, so
AS> that after I am arrested and sentenced, they will take me off the
AS> cross before I'm dead." THINK on that one for a second.
AS> THERE's bravery for you. Or insanity. Crucifixion is one of the
RH> Or sincere faith.
NO!!!! THAT'S JUST WHAT IT IS NOT!!!!!
Jesus, who said repeatedly, "the truth shall set you free" was
conspiring, in your scenario, to DEFRAUD the Jerusalem population. It
wasn't sincere ANYTHING. If He had faith, He would have let God save Him
and not relied on such a plot. He would have felt it would have been
demeaning and contrary to God's express command to have Joseph bribe
ANYBODY, or to have anyone lie. You have heard, doubtless, the expression
that Jesus was liar, lunatic, or Lord. It still comes down to that. Even
if one respects, in your scenario, His near-insane bravery for being
willing to go through a Crucifixion, it STILL is a fraud.
AS> most painful deaths known. Instead of hightailing out of Jerusalem,
RH> Nah. How about flaying? Now, THERE'S painful!
You may recall that Jesus WAS scourged by the Romans. Do you know how the
ROMANS did their floggings? They took a bit of sharp metal or bone and put
it at the end of the lash, so it took off skin each time. Nor were Roman
floggings, unlike those given by the Jewish authorities, have to stop at
sixty lashes. They could go on and on. Many instances can be shown where
people died from a Roman flogging ALONE. To me, that has always been the
obvious answer of why Jesus died "so soon"--the floggings probably
half-killed Him anyway.
AS> Now, NONE of them decided that the Sanhedrin (the political and
AS> religious power in the land) or Judas (the military power in the
AS> land) would pay BETTER for finding out about such a conspiracy? A
AS> secret spread too far is a secret no longer? Nobody told (with the
AS> consequent executions which would take place?).
RH> Or no one left alive to tell....
Executed? But surely, they would have blubbered out the truth if they were
to be executed, to incriminate others and so gain mercy. And if that were
so, why did the Romans or Sanhedrin not just SAY that, that the guards
were bribed and we had confessions of such, and so squelch the budding
Christian religion?
AS> Whatever else happened to Jesus, He had to have been wounded in
AS> the hands and feet to go through the Crucifixion. So, this wounded
AS> man...wounded (at the very least) in the side, in the hands, in the
AS> FEET...met a couple of believers on the road to Emmanus, walking the
AS> roughly ten miles from Emmanus to Jerusalem?
AS> Neat trick.
RH> Wagon? Horse?
Luke 24:13. "That very same day, two of them were on their way to a
village called Emmaus, seven miles from Jerusalem, and they were talkign
together about all that had happened. Now as they talked this over, Jesus
himself came up and WALKED by their side" and Luke 24:28, towards the end
of the walk, "When they drew near to the village to which they were
going, He made as it to go on". Certainly doesn't SOUND wounded, does He?
AS> But not for a GROUP witnessing of an impossible thing. Which is
AS> exactly what the disciples had.
RH> BS. Thousands witnessed the sun dancing in the sky, an impossible
AS> If you're stupid enough to stare at the sun, the eye jerks against
AS> the glare. For that matter, involuntary flinching against the glare
AS> would make
AS> the sun seem to "move".
RH>
RH> But that's what they reported. Who said they were all staring at the
RH> sun anyway? Not I...
If they see the sun dancing in the sky, they are looking at the sun,
correct? I can't look at the sun more than a second or two without
flinching.
RH> Besides, it was an overcast day IIRC.
Then how did they know the sun was dancing, if the clouds were covering
the sun..?
RH> event. I saw the Statue of Liberty vanish into thin air, an
RH> impossible event.
AS> We aren't talking casual strangers mistaking someone else for
AS> Jesus. We're not talking Elvis sightings. We're talking people who
AS> knew Jesus, who had travelled and lived with him for over a year.
AS> Neat trick.
RH> All he had to do was survive the cross for awhile.
RH> Not nearly as incredible as the alternative. IMHO, of course.
Of course. But the alternative scenarios given seem to defy everything we
know of human nature. I will grant you it is an incredible claim. So
incredible that I cannot think of a test greater than that one which would
convince everybody. He made an incredible claim. He also DID an incredible
thing, living again, TO BACK IT UP.
... God too has his hell: that is his love of man. - Nietzsche
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FOF CULT UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 09 Mar 96 02:07:00
EID:9728 206910e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 05122D16
-=> Quoting Ryan Shaw to Fredric Rice <=-
RS> Is that the gay rights issue? If so, what the hell are you talking
RS> about!? Everyone knows that faggots are half human perverts. Geeesh.
JB> Yep, and once they get the fags into 'resettlement' camps you know
JB> who's next, don't you? Most likely intellectual, atheistic, college
JB> students.
Then intellectual theists, who might disagree with their interpretation.
Then they start purging their own party. We saw it with Stalin, Hitler,
and Saddam Hussein.
... On the 6th day, God created Man. It's clear he was tired.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:08:00
EID:0eae 20691900
MSGID: 1:116/19 051238A6
AS> He was already a king...but not of this world, as He said Himself. He
AS> wasn't ruling a few miles of desert and dust. Infinity was not too
AS> large for His domain. Not drive out the Romans? Julian the Apostate,
AS> some three hundred years later, might disagree with you. "Thou hast
AS> conquered, Galilean," he is said to have muttered. I don't think any
AS> one man ever conquered the Romans more completely than Jesus did to
AS> the Empire.
RB>
RB> Did Jesus fulfill the messianic prophecy regarding kingship
RB> and banishing the Romans? The Jews say no.
Yes. But of course, that doesn't make it so.
AS> Never said it was. If it was, Joan of Arc and Thomas More would be
AS> messianic too. Coming BACK, though, is a little different.
RB>
RB> Joan and Thomas HAVE returned (in several motion pictures).
In movies that have ranged from the excellent MAN FOR ALL SEASONS to
catharticly stupid BILL AND TED'S EXCELLENT ADVENTURE.
AS> I find little to like in suicide, myself. It is one thing to pursue
a
AS> goal where you know death is a danger. It is another thing to do it
to
AS> oneself, and be the hand of your own destruction. We do not ask to
AS> live. Why should we choose how we die?
RB>
RB> I see nothing noble in the human barbecue of those monks
RB> either. But I suspect their frame of mind was similar to
RB> that of Jesus (assuming the story is true).
But remember, Jesus though He did not resist, He did not assist, either.
The monks actively set fire to themselves. I see a real difference there.
RB> As for suicide in general, that's the individual's choice.
RB> It may be stupid or selfish but that's their choice and
RB> there's really nothing one can do to prevent it.
One can at least discourage it.
AS> Very elaborate. In just a few years, it became such a part of the
AS> story that Paul endured shipwrecks, prisons, etc. for it, and the
AS> martyrs died in Rome under Nero...all in the lifetime of those they
AS> could ask to verify it.
RB> Practioners of other religions have endured hardships. Did the
RB> actions of the Japanese kamikaze pilots mean their emperor WAS
RB> a god and they would be rewarded in the afterlife?
Yes, but the kamikaze pilots didn't have access to anyone who claimed to
see their Emperor reward them in the afterlife. The disciples DID claim
to
witness a literal miracle.
AS> And the dividing line is...what? The fact that the fetus is dependent
AS> on the mother for direct nourishment?
RB> Brainwaves. Cognizance. Sentience. If a fetus has no
RB> more cognition than a stalk of broccoli, where is the
RB> crime in terminating that fetus? Of course, if you think
RB> broccoli is imbued with a soul, you had best partake of
RB> another vegetable.
But there is nothing a one-and-a-half year old who cannot speak yet can
do
better than a chimpanzee of the same age, and many things a great deal
worse. Yet if one was given a choice between having to kill a chimp or a
one and a half year old human being, few of us would hesitate. A dog shows
more SIGNS of intelligence...doing things when you command them, for
instance, like "sit" and "fetch"...than a newborn. Is then, the dog more
precious than the newborn child? A retarded adult, a oldster in the grip
of senility or Alzheimer's...are they less worthy to be kept alive than
a
person with perfect mental powers?
AS> But the bitter truth is, neither
AS> you...nor I...nor Lynda...nor Michael...nor Katherine...nor
AS> Marilyn...nor Judith...know when a person IS a person.
RB>
RB> Is a one inch fetus with the brainpower of a tomato a person?
Possibly, very possibly.
AS> (And from my viewpoint, given that no one knows at what point a body
AS> is infused with a soul)...wouldn't it be wise to err on the side of
AS> caution?
RB>
RB> IMO, this is the only valid argument against abortion. Not
RB> that I think 'souls' are real, but for those who do, I can
RB> understand the argument (although I can't imagine what a
RB> soul is doing in a fetus- should the fetus die, what determines
RB> it's personality? The fetus certainly doesn't have one.)
Pregnant women can often tell the difference in their children's behavior
even in the womb. Some kids kick more, some do it at different times (my
wife described it like being possessed in THE EXORCIST--part of your body
is moving and you didn't do it...), etc. Compared to what we MIGHT be,
after a near-eternity in the afterlife, the souls of those who have passed
on may look with us with the same contempt you feel for the one inch long
fetus.
AS> But it was a POTENTIAL baby and child.
RB>
RB> Yes. But is it a moral imperative that all potentialities
RB> should reach fruition?
It is on human beings. I can say to myself, well, my aunt has nothing left
to live for, she's had a good life, but I better kill her before she gets
cancer. But if I blow her brains out I'm still a murderer.
RB> Sounds like a tribal god to me. Why are ALL gods tribal gods?
RB> If there's a universal god, why doesn't he speak to man
RB> universally? If he did, do you realize how much dissension
RB> would be erased? All those tribal gods only compound the
RB> problems of racism and nationalism.
Hmmm. In the Middle Ages, about the only thing uniting Europe and Western
civlization WAS religion. There was France, there was England, there were
the German states..and the only lingua franca they had was Latin, becuase
it was the language of the church, and the only higher "court" kings could
appeal to was the Pope. Think how much more dificult such cooperation
would have been if Italy stayed worshipping Jupiter, Germany Woden,
Ireland the goddess Dana and Mannanan Mac Lir. England Cernunnos and
Beli....
AS> And isn't that intrinsic need ITSELF a little odd? I could see
AS> several cultures thinking such, but one would think...unless it
AS> reflects something real...that there would be other cultures which
AS> would dispense with myths entirely. Even cultures seperated by
AS> literally ten thousand years from any possible contact, like the Aztec
AS> and the Greco-Roman world, feel the need for dieties and creation
AS> myths and saviors.
RB>
RB> Dogs have a pack mentality. Pigeons have a homing
RB> instinct. Geese fly in formation. Humans believe in
RB> an afterlife.
But pack mentality helps the dogs survive. Pigeons' homing instinct is
doubtless good at refinding their nest. Geese...? There's probably some
reason. And humans' belief in the afterlife is based on..?
RB> Science builds and improves on earlier discoveries. Any
RB> current model is the best explanation we currently have.
RB> Religion accepts an ancient model and strives only to
RB> reinforce it. If science used the religious method, the
RB> sun would still be circling the earth and only blasphemers
RB> would think otherwise.
True. Although religions change over time. The church of the Borgia popes
was very different from that of the first century...more's the pity.
AS> But look at the history of such movements. Look at the ten thousand
AS> religious movements that have sprung up. How many claim eyewitness of
AS> a miracle at the core? Surely, if it was as easy as all that to
AS> convince others that their leader was resurrected, we would have a LOT
AS> of religions making that claim?
RB>
RB> Wouldn't that require the emergence of a BRAND NEW religion?
RB> Millions of people are already complacent theists of one
RB> brand or another. What interest would they have in starting
RB> a new belief? They have their hands full propping up their
RB> current one.
Yet new religions spring up all the time. Some for cynical reasons, like
L.Ron Hubbard's, and some from revelation that quite frankly might be
hallucination, like Rev. Moon or Joseph Smith. Yet none of them make such
claims as the apostles did.
RB>
RB> And atheists wouldn't have much interest in claiming resurrections.
RB> Unless they were unscrupulous bastards in it for the money. And
RB> we KNOW atheists are far too ethical for that.
Or too smart. Who would you get to agree with you? But the same dilemma
afflicts even the con man among theists...it is a startling claim that
most would not initially believe. So how to convince followers of the
impossible? How to get disciples who will agree?
AS> And yet...there are many religions
AS> that claim a dying/reborn god/savior, but none of them have
AS> eyewitnesses. (Adonis. Balder, Osiris, etc.) There are many religions
AS> that have leaders that died, but even the most imaginative of them
AS> (Mormonism, for instance) do not claim their leader rose from the
AS> dead.
RB>
RB> Perhaps that time in Jerusalem two millennia past, was
RB> humanity's last chance for such an outrageous event. We
RB> would not be quite so unsophisticated or credulous or
RB> zealous in our beliefs again.
There are things the average peasant of the Middle Ages believed that a
cultured man of the Greco-Roman world would have laughed at, with reason.
(And no, not his religious opinions). Certainly Cicero, for instance, had
a first rate mind.
AS> People of the first century were JUST as aware as we that
AS> people do not rise from the dead...maybe more, since they probably
AS> witnessed more executions than we. Just because they didn't have our
AS> scientific sophistication doesn't mean they were dullards, or weren't
AS> just as aware as we that virgins do not conceive, or dead men do not
AS> rise.
RB>
RB> I doubt that the ancient Israelites were quite as pragmatic
RB> as you suggest. Religion was a major part of their lives
RB> and fanaticism was probably not unusual. Their brains were
RB> just as sharp as ours but their experience was 2,000 years
RB> less.
I think their personal experience in this area far exceed yours or mine.
How many executed criminals' bodies have you seen? Yet not the smallest
schoolboy of that time would not have seen at least one.
AS> Did he claim to SEE Christ again, though? And did eleven others agree
AS> with him? It only took a short walk from that church to show them
AS> their error.
RB>
RB> If a few men in the backwoods of Oregon said they saw Bigfoot
RB> playing a banjo, would you believe them? That's a far less
RB> incredible story than a resurrected god. Believing biblical
RB> tales is about the same as believing stories of Bigfoot that
RB> were written by members of "Friends of Bigfoot". Written by
RB> Bigfootians for Bigfoot believers.
(Smile.) And suppose a lynch party got up and told a dozen Bigfootians
that unless they recant the story they'd be lynched, and they stuck to
their story regardless, even after one of them WAS lynched (the apostle
James.). Would you not wonder at least what they DID see, and be convinced
they saw something? I would.
AS> Try getting a dozen schizophrenics to agree on what the voices are
AS> saying. Hallucinations are VERY individual.
RB> Does that not also apply to the 'voice of God'?
Yes. But not to the witness of the Resurrectionn of Jesus. Which all the
disciples said they saw (not the actual Resurrection, but Jesus after His
death) and endured pain and possible death for.
... I plead temporary sanity.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:08:00
EID:e415 20691900
MSGID: 1:116/19 051244A4
RH> Matter of individual cases. A dead martyr is worth more than a live
RH> rebel in some cases. A live comatose patient can do terrible harm
RH> to his family's resources.
As you say, individual cases. I'm sure JFK Jr. would rather his father be
alive, for instance.
AS> A voluntary sacrifice? A martyr to provoke God? Could be. But if He
AS> had faith in God then He wouldn't consider this second one...
RH> Or at least APPEAR to die....
RH> Everyone's faith has its limits...
He had enough faith to undergo a Roman flogging and the opening parts of
Crucifixion but didn't have enough faith to see it through?
AS> You're having it both ways. Either He believed in Jehovah and the
AS> messianic prophecies, in which case he wouldn't have to fake
AS> anything, but
AS> went willingly to His death, or else He faked it, and knew His faith
AS> was false. One or the other.
RH>
RH> Either one would work, but I think he survived the cross for awhile.
Ah, then perhaps the "swoon" theory? That He went into a deathlike coma?
But then,you are left with the prospect of a man who was near enough death
to fool executioners who deal with dead bodies every day, getting up, in
a
sealed cavern, and moving a large stone that was sealing the tomb, and,
with injuries in his hands, side, and feet, convincing everybody that He
had been "gloriously" resurrected and the others wanting to be resurrected
like He was, instead of looking like death warmed over.
AS> I certainly agree birth control is needed. However, I wonder about
AS> the precedent, if nothing else. If we define a human being as one not
AS> born yet, what is the criteria for that? Because the fetus/baby is
RH> For what? Birth? Seems pretty clear to me. Breath of life and all.
Why should breathing be a criteria?
AS> linked with the mother? If a person is linked to a heart-lung machine
AS> are they less human? Is it because they cannot function as a human
RH> Yes. A corpse can be kept "alive" that way.
So can a human being who thinks and feels, and yet is disabled in other
ways.
AS> being does in some respects? But many afflicted cannot use the full
AS> range of human abilities.
AS> Will their lives someday also be deemed superfluous?
RH> Probably. Ask your insurance company about that. HMOs will soon be
RH> limiting the care you get based on a cost/benefit ratio.
And will be promptly be sued. And will probably be made to pay, by the
courts.
RH> Medical science raises many uncomfortable questions these days.
RH> Human cloning will really cause problems. Frozen fertilized eggs
RH> are already a problem. It will get worse.
Total agreement. Before too long, a real redefinition of what a human
being is will have to take place.
RH> It also does not establish that any of them IS true either.
AS> Granted.
RH>
RH> OBOY! Point for me!
Who's the scorekeeper?
AS> Do they claim he was miraculously saved? Or do they just believe they
AS> escaped by human means? Honestly curious here. I don't know.
RH> Nor do I.
Let me know if you find out.
AS> And do some of them claim that they SAW the miracle? After all, the
AS> disciples claimed to see Jesus die. John said he was there. John and
AS> others also claimed to have seen a risen Jesus.
RH> Claims, claims, claims. We want EVIDENCE.
Testimony from witnesses IS evidence, especially when they agree.
RH> No. They all saw the living Jesus.
Okay. Then they were deceived by Jesus. Is that what you are saying?
AS> But human behavior we know. If you tell me that JFK was haunted by
AS> the ghost of Lincoln, I can't estimate the probabilities. If you tell
AS> me JFK was J.Edgar Hoover's lover, I WILL laugh out loud. That I know.
RH> Oh? You mean you didn't know?
"Yes, you're beautiful. The whole world knows how beautiful Marilyn Monroe
is. But you don't hold a candle to J.Edgar..."
... The real money is in starting your own religion. --L. Ron Hubbard
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:05:00
EID:de69 206918a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 05125156
JH> I've got many of the messages either to or from Asmodeus saved.
JH> Not included are most of my updates which were pretty redundant.
JH> Also not included are messages ABOUT him, there were just too many
JH> of them. In raw, unsorted, unorganized format it's still more than
JH> 200 K.
JH> I may produce a synopsis one of these days, but it's not a high
JH> priority.
Just like Asmodiddle. Who is low humor.
... Death is life's way of telling you you've been fired.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: LIBRARIES
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:05:00
EID:dcac 206918a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 05125DFE
RH> If God does it, it's OK? Murder, rape, pillage, all OK if
RH> He orders it?
AS> Hmmm. Exactly HOW did you arrive at that conclusion from what I said
AS> above? I see nothing to indicate it. The answer is no.
RH> Depended on a prior deleted statement as I recall. Made sense when
RH> I typed it. And there ARE biblical examples as you well know.
Yes. All of which deserve a second look to see what is really said.
AS> And the engineer may have created the bridge. He may have caused the
AS> ravine into which you may fall, by blasting. I think it's a rather
AS> good analogy myself. As for the "slightest infraction"...the most
AS> henious crimes can be forgiven. All it takes is a word. There is no
AS> sin, no evil greater than God's grace. But even that is not forced on
AS> you. You only have to ask for it.
RH> Look Al, if your God does not wish to be bothered with us after death,
RH> we can just die. There is no logical justification for a lake of
RH> fire. It's just the human wish for vengeance, no matter how delayed,
RH> projected onto a "merciful" God.
That might be one reason I myself am rather disturbed by the idea of Hell,
and like many, wonder if an actual extinction of the soul is what's
implied. Many sincere Christians believe that. I myself am not sure.
AS> will examine Romans you will see that one's conscience can be an
AS> advocate before God for the pagans, so I think it is certainly
AS> conceivable...indeed, my own opinion...that a non-Christian or
AS> non-theist could still end up in a blissful afterlife for what he has
AS> done during life.)
RH> "Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Granted. That salvation, i.e., forgiveness for past sins, can be gained.
The Christian has the option for forgiveness. A pagan would have to toe
the line. IF my interpretation is right. In other words, a Christian
thief or murderer, if he sincerely repented, could gain Heaven. A pagan
thief or murderer I see little hope for.
RH> Hard to justify biblically, since "no one comes to the Father...".
AS> Does that mean only those who consciously follow Jesus OR does it
AS> mean that Jesus is the final arbitrator of who shall come to the
AS> Father? Two different things. Both meanings, however, might be implied
AS> by the above statement...but the second also takes into account the
AS> statement in Romans. (I.E., Jesus could admit the good pagan into the
AS> Father's presence
AS> if He felt they were good in His sight, whether they had heard of
AS> Jesus or
AS> not.)
AS> Trust me, Roger. I can justify it biblicly quite well.
RH> You mean you can twist any text to say what you wish?
No. It means I have read the WHOLE thing, including the passage in Romans,
and try to reconcile them.
... Faith is no excuse for ignorance!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Re: Many gods
|Date: 09 Mar 96 03:08:00
EID:0e8b 20691900
MSGID: 1:116/19 05126916
FR> I'm totally dedicated to Zeus. Imagine.
AS> Not in a Ganymeadean sense, I trust.
KC> HaHA! We've read Marlowe, I see.
AS> Actually, I thought it was original (the fact that Ganymeade was
AS> Zeus' cupbearer and male main squeeze, as opposed to his ten thousand
AS> female main squeezes) but yeah, I've read Christopher Marlowe (I love
AS> his Dr. Faustus, but I've suffered a recent fire and lost some of my
AS> books) and probably unconsciously plagiarized it. Where was it, in Dr.
AS> Fautus or Timburlane or what?
KC> "Dido, Queen of Carthage" --
KC> [Prose lines converted into paragraph form because I just couldn't be
KC> bothered]
KC> Jupiter: Come, gentle Ganymede, and play with me. / I love
KC> thee well, say Juno what she will.
KC> Ganymede: I am much better for your worthless love, / That
KC> will not shield me from her shrewish blows! / Today, whenas I
KC> fill'd into your cups, / And held the cloth of pleasance whiles
KC> you drank, / She reach'd me such a rap for that I spill'd, / As
KC> made the blood run down about mine ears.
KC> Jupiter: What, dares she strike the darling of my thoughts? /
KC> By Saturn's soul, and this earth-threatening hair, / That,
KC> shaken thrice, makes nature's buildings quake, / I vow, if she
KC> but once frown on theee more, / To have her, meteor like,
KC> 'twist heaven and earth, / And bind her, hand and foot, with
KC> golden cords, / As once I did for harming Hercules!
KC> Ganymede: Might I but see that pretty sport a-foot, / O, how
KC> would I with Helen's brother laugh, / And bring the gods to
KC> wonder at the game! / Sweet Jupiter, if e'er I pleas'd thine
KC> eye, / Or seemed fair, wall'd-in with eagle's wings, / Grace
KC> my immortal beauty with this boon, / And I will spend my time
KC> in thy bright arms.
KC> It gets progressively more explicit. This is, amazingly enough, from
KC> Act I Scene I.
Ahhh, then it WAS original as far as I was concerned, because I've never
read "Dido" although it sounds like I should. I love Marlowe, but don't
have a complete set of works like I have of Shakespeare...(remembering the
recent fire, and how the Shakespeare was near the now melted
computer)...uh, make that HAD of Shakespeare.
KC> I'm aware of the Ganymede-Zeus connection in mythology, but I remember
KC> this play more often than the original. ;)
Whereas I have always been interesed in Greek and Norse mythology, and
have since a small boy, where I staged a grand war between Olympus and
Asgard in my imagination and drawings.
... I met some crazy people. They made me their leader...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Message to Asmodeus
|Date: 09 Mar 96 04:01:00
EID:f1b6 20692020
MSGID: 1:116/19 051276E0
AS> Open and shut case. I hope Asmodiddly is RICH...I could care less
AS> if we jail him. (Maybe a court order not to go near a computer for
AS> purposes of communication for the rest of his life, though...)
DC> That in itself should be made into a law, just on GP alone. However,
DC> it would lower the humor content a bit...
Hmmmm....six months of logging onto Steve Winter's echo? They could curse
(literally) each other...
... Be a better shrink and the world will beat a psychopath to your door.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Question
|Date: 09 Mar 96 04:09:00
EID:48d0 20692120
MSGID: 1:116/19 05127F1E
RB> I normally don't divulge such information but I feel strangely
RB> compelled to do so... I'm a bi-sexual, Transylvanian, vegetarian,
RB> non-smoking, loves-to-dance, near-sighted dwarf.
RB>
RB> And, oh yeah... a Republican.
Rob, I had no idea you were really Danny Devito.
Wait, he's happily married to Rhea whatshername...so you're Devito's
Transylvanian half-brother, right?
... Every absurdity has a champion to defend it.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lee Woofenden
|Sub: THE PATTERN OF THE BIBLE
|Date: 09 Mar 96 04:04:00
EID:7ecf 20692080
MSGID: 1:116/19 051289E6
LW> Right. This is something that the fundy atheist Bible critics
LW> completely miss. They assume that God is unlike any other intelligent
LW> life form we know and does not adapt the message to the comprehension
LW> and receptivity of the hearer.
They would make him LESS intelligent than most parents here.
... Don't ask me; I was hired for my looks.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: URL!
|Date: 09 Mar 96 02:09:00
EID:91ac 20691120
MSGID: 1:116/19 05129E36
AS> (Unless you are using "fundies" in a narrower sense than most of
AS> Holy Smoke...most here use it in the sense of "Christians",
AS> period. If you mean, say, snake-handlers and their ilk,
AS> perhaps, although I'm sure they have their several-generation
AS> families also.)
JH> That is probably my favorite pet-peeve with this echo. To me the
JH> term 'fundamentalist' is a very specific classification. No less
JH> specific than "bat" or "bird".
JH> It's not that I object to the word because it's being used as an
JH> epithet (I rarely hesitate to fling my favorite epithets when
JH> in the mood), but I deeply dislike seeing nomenclature being used
JH> incorrectly. Especially when it deals with a subject that interests
JH> me, such as unusual religious beliefs.
JH> Fundamentalism has very specific characteristics that distinguish it
JH> and make it distinct and unique when compared to other theological
JH> movements. It is _ALWAYS_ Protestant. Saying a Catholic or Moslem
JH> is a Fundamentalist makes my head do a triple Linda Blair barstool
JH> spin. They are always Biblical Inerrantists and Premillenial
JH> Dispensationalists (say it three times fast). And lastly, they are
JH> always Separtists, they view the world as two large camps: "Us" and
JH> "Them". The outside world is always viewed as an adversary.
JH> If a person's theology doesn't meet all of the above points, they
JH> are NOT a Fundamentalist, they may still be a wildass crazy nutball,
JH> but they are not a Fundamentalist.
I've been here too long. Whenever someone says, "fundi" I think
"Christian", at least if they're posting in this forum. It's nice to see
some here use it in the original sense of the word.
... Generalizations are all wrong!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Lon S. Mabon
|Sub: Who's who...
|Date: 09 Mar 96 02:03:00
EID:7c65 20691060
MSGID: 1:116/19 0512AF2A
LSM> Interesting origin lines here, folks. Keep tabs on those posting
LSM> times, Fredric...this just might be a new 'staal' alias:
Jim. Enough games.
... We love the Lord, but we often wonder what He finds in us.--Ed Howe
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 09 Mar 96 02:08:00
EID:d61f 20691100
MSGID: 1:116/19 0512BEA2
MH> The ending of Mark which we now have, from 16:9 onward, does not
MH> appear in any manuscripts until the Middle Ages. It was not part
MH> of the gospel as originally written, and is therefore not
MH> Scripture.
MG> Why do you claim this? Where did it come from? If the wource were
MG> legit, why would you not consider it scripture?
What, AGAIN??
Jerusalem Bible.
"The manuscript tradition is the main objection. Many manuscripts,
including Vaticanicus and Siniaticus, omit the present ending. One
manuscript gives, instead, a shorter ending which, proceeding from verse
8, runs, 'They reported briefly to Peter's companion what they had been
told. Then Jesus Himself through their agency broadcast from east to west
he sacred and incoruptible message of eternal salvation. Four manuscripts
give the shorter ending and add the longer. One manuscript has the longer
ending with the following insertion between verses 14 and 15;'And they
defended themselves thus,"This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under
the sway of Satan, who does not allow those under the yoke of unclean
spirits to understand God's truth and power. Now, therefore, reveal your
righteousness.' This is what they said to Christ, and Christ answered,
'The number of years allowed for Satan's authority has been reached, but
other terrible things draw near. I was handed over to be killed for those
who have sinned, so that they might turn to truth and sin no more, and so
inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness that is in
heaven..."' The patristic tradition, also, is somewhat uncertain. We may
add that the transition from verse 8 to verse 9 is brusque. Moreover, it
is difficult to see how the original gospel could have ended so abruptly
at verse 8. Hence the hypothesis that, for some unknown reason, the
original ending has been lost and the present ending proposed to fill the
gap. This ending is, in fact, a brief summary of the appearances of the
risen Christ, and its style differs notably from the usual concrete and
pictorial style of Mark." Michael's references are a little wrong in that
the ending was in some Greek manuscripts by the late 2nd century---Tatian
and Irenaeus knew it...but it is rejected for good scholarly reasons.
... The Wise admit their errors and learn; Fools defend them and stagnate!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: #smoke
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:07:00
EID:c636 206a40e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F167FA
MS> ........Al, I heard, awhile back, that you were in #Smoke....You
MS> don't happen to know how to get there on the internet or have the
MS> correct address?
Ohhh, brother. I did it only a few times before the fire, and between
responding here, having a life, and working on a web page I haven't logged
on since then. I THINK it's on server irc.undernet.org. You would do
better to ask David Worrell, Lynda, Styx, or even Fred Rice.
If I'm wrong, working on a month-old memory of a VERY busy month, someone
please send the right server address to Mark.
... Free will means having the right to make mistakes.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Al Schroeder
|Date: 10 Mar 96 07:02:00
EID:ef9b 206a3840
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F16D4A
NS> Al Schroeder:
NS> 1% Norbert Sykes, 10% Jim Germiquet, 40% Sugars,
NS> & 49% Inert Materials.
Well..uh...it's an interesting description...(?)
However, my WIFE doesn't find me "inert"...
... "Don't mince words, Leon ... what do you *REALLY* think?"
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 10 Mar 96 07:08:00
EID:c531 206a3900
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F17286
JG> It's a saying of Jesus. But who knows ? Could mars be a spiritual
JG> planet ? Some say Jupiter is.
Oh.
Uh, Jim. You are perhaps aware that a probe plunged into Jupiter's
atmosphere earlier this year...?
Were you by any chance big into "New Age" religions before you turned to
Christianity? The Shirley MacLaine type of stuff?
... Don't be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: lack of any Evidence
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:07:00
EID:acac 206a40e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F1777C
AS> I don't know. If there is any truth to extra sensory abilities they
AS> must have been with us since we were recognizably human, instead of
AS> the few centuries we have had the scientific method. Why have they not
AS> manifested themselves more reliably if it is not useful AND real?
JG> I believe they have, things like the dream of seven years of plenty
JG> and seven years of famine. Many bible story's I believe are based on
JG> actual incidents. We treat them as fables, but maybe they have some
JG> truth to them. The same with todays "premonitions" that stop people
JG> from being killed in airplane crashes. Sure maybe they are
JG> coincidences, but maybe they aren't. I have a sneaking suspicion that
JG> it is the faith or belief in these things that give them power. I mean
JG> after all, if you get this "feeling" that you shouldn't do something,
JG> and you just ignore it all the time,... while it is like a muscle, if
JG> you don't use it, it atrophies, and I think faith is like that and
JG> these extra sensory abilities.
JG> The more we rely on our technology to do things for us, the less we
JG> have to rely on faith, and the more it atrophies and the weaker it
JG> gets.
Let me try this again.
For thousands of years people routinely believed in prophecy, the Oracle
at Delphi, the Prophets of the OT, etc. The hit-and-miss ratio was never
great, although I personally think some of the prophets were correct, but
they couched it in obscure enough language that I cannot prove it to an
outside party...sort of like reading the prophecies of Nostradamus. Some
people see startling hits, but that's by sayng "the river Hister" is the
same as "the tyrant Hitler" which strikes me as, to say, the least, a
bizarre stretching of the original message out of shape. Others see
nothing but useless rhymes.
If prophecy was a HUMAN facility, and not say granted by an outside
source at its convenience not ours (the God theory) or nonexistent, than
why did not the ancients' make it more dependable, breed people for
prophecy (as they bred people for leadership (kings), servility
(peasants), etc?
AS> If you mean doing good works, yes. If you mean our beliefs somehow
AS> determine reality (which Don Juan seemed to imply to Castenada in
AS> those famous books of Yaqui magic)--or at least causes us to select
AS> the reality from a large ensemble of possible states out
AS> there...cannot agree. If that were the case, then there would never
be
AS> any scientific progress. Every new idea starts with a lone idea. If
JG> I don't agree. Our brains associate "everything" when we get ideas,
JG> they are usually based on other ideas. In fact I bet every idea is
JG> based on the first idea that the first man who was capable of having
an
JG> idea , had. :-)
Yes. But OTOH, SOME ideas are startling departures from previous ideas.
Einstein's theory made perfect mathematical sense, but it SEEMED to
violate the common sense of the day. The Michaelson-Morley experiment ran
contrary to ALL expectation, and they had to scramble like mad to figure
a
way to reconcile it. Ditto quantum mechanics. Currently we have dark
matter, again TOTALLY unexpected, but crying for an explanation. If our
brains determine reality, there would be no new unexpected discoveries.
(And of course, how were our brains formed, if there is no "root" reality
to form them? And how much brain is needed? Can a mouse make a moon, as
Einstein disgustedly said about some of the observor-oriented conclusions
of the Copenhagen Interpretation?
AS> Copernicus was the only one at the time with a true belief in a
AS> heliocentric theory, than the rest of mankind, who believed in a
AS> geocentric theory, would have CAUSED the Earth to be in the center of
JG> Are you really sure it wasn't ? The idea is that even as we change our
JG> idea of things, we recreate the past and believe it has always been
JG> that way :-) Sounds like a twilight zone plot.
I HOPE you're joking. Think it through. If minds determine reality, than
a
majority of minds would make that reality more, uhhh, "firm". So a lone
dissenter like Copernicus would never be able to produce the evidence
needed, for HIS one mind's "pull" on reality would not match several
million mind's "pull" on reality. And without evidence, you can't convince
the rest of the minds, so new theories would never be accepted...
AS> the universe, and Copernicus never would have been able to convince
AS> anybody. No scientific progress would happen. (It would also imply
AS> there was no reality until there were minds to comprehend it, in which
AS> case you can ask, whence did the minds arise FROM?)
JG> Good question. I ask that often. Especially when I think I've lost
JG> mine :-) But seriously, it is a very difficult thing to understand what
JG> reality really is when you are limited by the fact that as a human you
JG> are unable to comprehend anything that you cannot translate into a form
JG> that your five senses can interpret. Before we saw pluto, we didn't
JG> know it existed. Before we developed things like microscopes, we didn't
JG> know of all those tiny things that existed. They were there all the
JG> time but not for those who didn't know.
True, but I can say that reality is not dependent on a PLURALITY of minds,
see above. There is really no reason why it cannot depend on ONE mind,
though...I cannot objectively prove anyone else exists (solipism). But
then, if only one mind determines reality, why would viewpoints change?
Why would there be suprises? So, I interpret the consistent impressions
I
get to reflect a true reality, not dependent on even my mind, in a
Descartian sense. Thus I refute Descartes, there must not only be"I think,
therefore I am" but an external reality to sometimes change one's thinking
patterns.
JG> The periodic table is a case in point. Blanks were left for elements
JG> that had not yet been discovered. Now the question is, did those
JG> elements exist previously or did they come into existence because we
JG> believed they would?
(Picking jaw off the floor) Read the history of the discovery of those
elements, Jim. You will find that it was usually a matter of not being
able to measure their atomic weight correctly at the time.
JG> WHAT A CONCEPT !!!
JG> By BELIEVING in something and ACTING on it you make it a REALITY !!!
AS> In which case, Spock, Sherlock Holmes, and Superman would be a
JG> And they are ! I have seen all of them on TV recently :-)
C'Mon, get SERIOUS.
AS> reality. Unicorns would have been a reality when it was generally
JG> Saw a bunch of those in the gift shop just the other day :-)
You saw statues or paintings of them. You didn't see UNICORNS in the gift
shop...did you?
AS> believed they existed, as would dragons. Now, if you mean it in merely
AS> a metaphorical sense...that an idea prompts actions that make things
a
AS> reality (for instance, whether I believe Buddha was truly enlightened
AS> or not, I can applaud the ideal that prompts many Buddhist monks to
AS> help others, for instance, or others' ideas that cause one to build
a
AS> cathedral or a hospital) I could agree with you.
JG>
JG> Cool...now tell me... what or who is god?
The first cause, transcendent to our reality, who chose the boundary
conditions and limits of the physical constants in our reality.
JG> So then the only question is what do you believe in ? What do you
JG> WANT to believe in ?
AS> I want to believe that Ed McMann will show up at my door any minute
AS> with the famous check, that two of my sons aren't autistic, and that
AS> all war in the world will cease. Oh, and that AIDS and cancer will be
AS> cured by a simple vaccine. I don't think I'm alone. But those
AS> conditions remain.
JG> But "who" has to believe these things to make them become reality ?
JG> I have read that man has some kind of "collective consciousness" which
JG> is of all men who have ever lived. Does it really exist ? COuld it be
JG> what has to believe for it to become reality. Could it be swayed by
JG> 1) the number of conciousness' that believe 2) The strength of the
JG> belief of one or more consciousness' in the collective ? Or a
JG> factoring of the two or any other criteria IF it even exists?
*Sigh* Jung has a lot to answer for...
See above. IF the 'collective consciousness' determines reality, no
single mind, not even Einstein's or Copernicus', could deflect the mindset
of millions of minds. And the heliocentric theory and realitivity would
NEVER be proved, because the "collective consciousness" would never allow
reality to be changed enough to make it so.
AS> James said it best when he said, "Faith without works is dead." Not
AS> that salvation is a matter of works, but that faith prompts action,
AS> just as love prompts action. If you say you love your wife, but never
AS> kiss her, hold her, do anything for her, despite all your
AS> protestations of how much you love her, your words ring hollow.
AS> Similarly with faith.
JG> There is so much of this type of wisdom in the bible that some people
JG> in this echo would have us throw in a shredder.
True.
JG> And what you do gives reality to what you believe.
AS> No; if I have an unrequited love for a woman, unless she is really
AS> there, all my longing and actions will not materialize her.
JG> But obviously if you love her, she exists for you. Again maybe not
JG> physically "yet", but who knows if you continue longing for a long
JG> enough time she may yet "materialize" and you may meet her. Maybe she
JG> HAS already "materialized" and it is just a question of meeting her.
But many search for such a mate all their lives and never find them.
Similarly, some people seek God...or the Northwest passage...or evidence
of ether (in the cosmological sense)...all their lives, and never find it.
Einstein died without finding a unified theory, which he had been
searching for, for thirty years. Wishful thinking does not budge reality.
... Religion without science is blind... --Einstein
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: what was that book?
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:04:00
EID:1da8 206a4080
MSGID: 1:116/19 01F18000
MH> Say Al ...
MH> "Al."
The name sounds like MUSIC when you say it, Mike...
MH> What was that story or book you were discussing a while back that
MH> had something to do with God, Satan and sunsets?
A six or seven issue story arc in the SANDMAN comic book, since
republished in a trade paperback form, in which...bear in mind this is an
adult comic book in the best sense of the world...Sandman, the King of
Dream, is given the keys to Hell by Satan, who empties Hell and decides
he
has had enough. So Satan goes sitting by an Australian shore, and an old
man comes up and talks about all the bad things that have happened in his
life, like his son dying and his rheumatism and all the injustices that
have happened here in life, but that he comes out there every night and
absolutely free, there is a gorgeous sunset...each one different, each one
absolutely marvellous, and that despite all the stuff that has happened
in
his life, a God who could provide something like that absolutely free must
be an okay guy. The old guy walks away, and Satan (looking very angelic,
but with a cynical twist to his face) says...obviously talking to
God..."All right, all right, you old bastard. He's right. The sunsets are
bloody MARVELOUS." The trade paperback is called Gates of Hell or Keys to
the Gates of Hell or something like that. It was one of the things that
burned up in the fire. I'm sure it would be mentioned in the two Sandman
links I have at my web page
(http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/index.html), one being a link to
a
Sandman page, one to the Dreaming. If you're looking for it in a good
bookstore (and the larger ones would have it, like Bookworld, Waldenbooks,
etc.) the author is Neil Gaiman.
Worth reading. (Masterful understatement.)
... The world can't end today - it's tomorrow in Australia!!!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick McFarlane
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 10 Mar 96 09:02:00
EID:2b2f 206a4840
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274B452
AS> make a leader analogy, the state has the authority to kill to preserve
AS> itself, either through capitol punishment or through war. Capitol
AS> punishment is debatable, but I think any society must sanction
AS> violence to preserve itself, either through policemen or soldiery. Yet
AS> it forbids private vengeance. Do you then want NO part of any
AS> political process, because every society known sanctions such? (Larger
AS> society, anyway.) Do you refuse to be part of THAT process because it
AS> is not "leading by example"? (Before you ask, I generally do not favor
AS> capitol punishment, although I will admit for child molestors and such
AS> I have been known to let my anger at the crime override what I know
AS> about the futility of such.)
RM> (Aside: Is living in Washington that bad? I mean, "capitol"
RM> punishment?)
YEs.
RM> I fear the contoversy of capital punishment is about to sidetrack
RM> your argument here. The argument itself, about leading by example,
RM> does not depend on society having a right to kill. Using that as the
RM> case in point might just lead to misunderstanding.
Yes, but I think I need to lead with the strongest prohibition we have,
that I think God can defy. It doesn't only involve capitol punishment of
convicted killers, it involves the right to self-defense and policing
itself (the state can have a SWAT team shoot a sniper who is about to kill
hundreds, for instance.)
RM> Killing murderers is the most dramatic (and controversial) example,
RM> but, if we imprison kidnappers, or fine embezzelers, we as a society,
RM> are behaving in exactly the same way that we found objectionable in
RM> the individual we are punishing, and no one finds that controversial
RM> at all.
RM> Of course, society is not an individual, so the code of conduct that
RM> we expect individuals to submit to doesn't hold for society and,
RM> ultimately, everyone, including those that oppose capital punishment,
RM> understand that.
Exactly. Humans in the aggregate are able to do things that are
reprehensible to an individual, and nobody but a total anarchist believes
differently. And that is just a collection of human beings, not a Being
on
a totally different order of reality, who further created the reality in
which we dwell.
RM> And God is not a man.
Indeed not. (Although He may have been one for a while, if my beliefs are
right...a descent into humanness.)
... Reality is not a constant. Shut up and finish your dinosaur.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: A Fair & Just God
|Date: 10 Mar 96 09:05:00
EID:a226 206a48a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274BC2C
AS> I appreciate the offer, but I have a new/used system that seems to be
AS> working fine (for now...although I have my suspicions that we may have
to
KS> OK, good.
Thanks for the offer. BTW, I think I saw another message from you on my
old BBS that evidently came the day my new BBS didn't receive any
messages, where you were talking about my statement that an mass
hallucination is every bit as unbeilivable as a Resurrection, and you went
..."uh, Al" or words to that effect. But it wasn't a typo. The idea is,
if
the only explanation that makes sense to you entails what would be a
miracle, than why not opt for the one which the witnesses themselves
thought was the more likely?
... "Nemo exspectat Inquisitionem Hispanicam!" --Montius Pythonius
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick McFarlane
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:03:00
EID:f421 206a0060
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274C168
RM> I already addressed a note to her on this. And I think I said pretty
RM> much the same stuff you did, although a little more concisely .
RM> I wonder why people keep misrepresenting your point? I don't entirely
RM> agree with it, but I at least understand it .
Good. It is odd how many of them seem not to get the difference.
AS> what I know of the Baha'i faith (Rick, correct me if I'm wrong) there
AS> are few claims of witnessing of miracles, however.
RM> Uh, I think we've been over this ground before, Al. In fact, weren't
RM> we in the process of discussing it the last time my feed went flakey?
Notice I said "few". Not "none". The Bab's miracle is the only one I
personally know of, whereas Christianity is liberally sprinkled with
them...water into wine, walking on water, etc. as well as the
Resurrection.
RM> While Baha'is don't put much emphasis on it, there were a number of
RM> documented miracles recorded in connection with the Bab. There are
RM> also stories of miracles connected to Baha'u'llah, which (according
to
RM> Abdu'l Baha) have been deliberately downplayed, because miracles are
RM> _not_ important. (Aside: you'll also never find a picture of
RM> Baha'u'llah in a Baha'i home, although photographs of Him do exist
-
RM> similar reasoning. It's the message that really counts, not the
RM> Messenger, not the parlour tricks.)
An interesting, sane, viewpoint. But with Christianity at least one
miracle is CENTRAL to its message, the Resurrection. Notice that I don't
argue at the same length for any of the other miracles...water into wine,
walking on water, the loaves and the fishes, the healing of
lepers...because they are comparitively irrelevant. Although the Bab's
miracle is a wonderful thing, if it hadn't happened, it would not invalidate
either the Bab's nor Baha'ullah's message. If the Resurrection did not
happen (in my view...I know there are some liberal theologians who might
disagree) than Chistianity itself is irrelevant.
RM> The most significant miracle in Baha'i history is the one we discussed
RM> before, the martyrdom of the Bab, and, when you think about it, it has
RM> some remarkable similarities to the miracle that you are talking about
RM> here. In any case, direct witnesses of it number in the thousands -
a
RM> huge crowd was present, and it is documented by both friendly and
RM> hostile sources (there were very few people in that country at that
RM> time who were impartial on the Bab's claims ). If you'd like some
RM> quotes from the "hostile" (read "official") side, I can supply those,
RM> as well as the Baha'i records. In fact, you can probably find the both
RM> at your local library in any Baha'i history book, and any good history
RM> book about that period in Persia. They all agree on the essentials of
RM> what happened that day, but they certainly put different "spins" on
it
.
And it is an excellent example. Indeed, I have used a similar argument
concerning the anthropic principle...if a dozen men aimed at a person and
they ALL misfired, you would suspect something going on.
RM> In any case, I myself think that a miracle is only "proof" to someone
RM> who personally witnessed it, and it probably shouldn't be even to
RM> them. I mean, people can be pretty tricky.
Like David Copperfield? but OTOH, we are told, repeatedly, that
extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Then when we mention
miracles like the Resurrection, we are told flatly, "they didn't happen."
Stuck in a logical Catch-22.
RM> I related my favourite story about miracles here once before, but,
RM> because it makes the point so well, and just in case you missed it
RM> before, I'm gonna relate it again .
RM> The Moslem clergy sent an envoy to Baha'u'llah, challenging Him to
RM> prove His claims by performing a miracle for them. They undoubtedly
RM> expected Him to refuse (as Christ did with similar requests), but
RM> instead, He returned the challenge. He told them that He would agree
RM> in advance that failure to provide whatever miracle they wanted miracle
RM> would prove He was an impostor, IF they would all agree on one miracle,
RM> any miracle, specify it in detail, and in writing, and agree that they
RM> would all embrace His Cause should He provide the specified miracle.
RM> They never got back to Him on that one. Apparently, they couldn't
RM> agree on a single miracle that they were certain could not be faked,
RM> and they didn't want to take a chance. Which, really, is prefectly
RM> rational on their part. I mean, if David Copperfield can make a 747
RM> disappear...
True. Hector once had an answer of what it would take to convince him that
God existed, and he said, "bring my dead dog back". All he wanted was a
dead pet returned, which he would not be able to prove to any outside
person was not a different dog. THe disciples at least got a dead LEADER
and TEACHER returned.
AS> true in Peter's case, for instance) than we are left with a dozen
AS> people---actually more, there was Mary Magdelene, there was James the
AS> brother of Jesus and the head of the Jerusalem church, there were the
AS> five hundred who were unfortunately not otherwise named...who saw what
AS> we hitherto would regard as impossible. Are they ALL deluded in the
AS> exact same way? How?
RM>
RM> About 10,000 people witnessed it when a firing squad of 750 soldiers
RM> all missed the Bab, while the bullets shattered the ropes that bound
RM> Him, setting Him free. They weren't all deluded. And many among them
RM> were believers (or became believers because of what they saw) and some
RM> of them later suffered martyrdom themselves for refusing to recant
RM> their beliefs. Where's the flaw in the parallel, Al? In fact, the
RM> case of the Bab is much better documented (only because it is much
RM> more recent), and had many _more_ witnesses than the resurrection.
Absolutely true. But OTOH...not denigrating your faith or anything...the
Bab's miracle, although EXTREMELY unlikely to the point of ridiculousness,
still falls within the extreme end of probability. (Not to mention the
mere possibility of collusion, which I admit is very unlikely). What Jesus
did was more on the lines of a physical impossibility...a dead man after
three days rising and walking and talking. Still, the Bab's miracle is an
excellent example. And it is indeed possible that God had a hand in such,
although whether it indicates that the Bab or Baha'ullah are indeed
Incarnations I am not as sure.
RM> I submit, that if the resurrection is proof of the divinity of Christ,
RM> then, applying the same standards to the case of the Bab, you should
RM> come to the same conclusion.
It certainly gives me grounds for thought, Rick. But should I accord the
outragously improbable the same accord I would give to the accomplishing
of the flat-out impossible? There have been documented cases of people
falling for miles, without a parachute, and surviving. (Usually by landing
in the snow). Or those who fall from buildings and yet survive, relatively
unscathed? I personally think it DOES show a sign of God's favor towards
the Bab, in the same way that I personally think God favored Gandhi's
nonviolent struggle against the British for being a good and gentle man,
despite the fact that the British were predominently Christian. I'm not
as
sure that I can read the Bab's miracle as a flat-out endorsement by God
of
all of the Bab's or Baha'ullah's claims, although it might be of the Bab's
moral ascendenscy and general favor with God over his critics....
Let me think on this.
RM> Yet I have to stress that I don't believe because of miracles. I
RM> believe because I recognize the voice of God in the teachings of
RM> Baha'u'llah, the same way that I recognize the voice of God in the
RM> Sermon on the Mount. That _is_ the important part.
Even though the Sermon on the Mount is wonderful, I sort of go the
opposite way. I can listen to many good teachers, and think they are
wonderful or inspired. But what convinces me of the Sermon of the Mount's
eternal relevance is the reasoned conclusion that Jesus DID rise from the
dead, which gives an additional "weight" to all His words.
RM> Take care.
You too, Rick.
... Cogito Eggo sum (I think; therefore, I am a waffle)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rick McFarlane
|Sub: campbell
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:02:00
EID:b7cf 206a0040
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274CF1E
AS> And missing me completely at hitting Mt. St. Helens? Because I can
AS> GUARENTEE that there was one week in my life I was not cursed, it was
AS> during my honeymoon.
RM>
RM> So? He missed again. What else is new.
The only thing near-supernatural Asmodiddle did was to get EVERYONE, from
Fred Rice to Mike Hardy, from Judith Bandsma to Jim Staal, to agree about
what a maroon he was.
AS> (Although my wife fainted when we were in line
AS> for a Broadway play that week...we honeymooned in New York.
RM>
RM> Now Asmo is gonna try to take credit for that one!
Probably.
AS> Just too
AS> long in high heels after being in..uh..bed...most of the day,
RM>
RM> Oh, so _YOU_ are going to try to take credit for it?
(Injured innocence) I think we BOTH (my wife and I) can take credit
for it. Nyaaaahhhh. It was a stuffy foyer, she was in high heels, all
the sudden she said, "Al, I feel like I'm going to faint..." I said,
"SUUUUURE you are," thinking she was joking, and then, plop! One nice
little old lady handed me Barb's purse as I was lifting her, the theme to
"Love Story" running through my head and wondering what deadly disease she
had...
My wife DOES accuse me of geting a proud look evey time I tell the
story. Male vanity crops up in the weirdest places...
... Vasectomy: Below the belt lobotomy for a 1-track mind.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: Churches
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:05:00
EID:4001 206a00a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274D900
AS> I appreciate that, but I THINK I'm okay. The fact that the new BBS
AS>got no messages from Holy Smoke for a day troubles me, though. I may
AS>have a BBS where people can read what I write but that has an
AS>irregular feed.
KDM> It's been happening here, too. I *think* Planet Connect was having
KDM> problems.
Wouldn't suprise me.
AS>smell permeated it. But I'm not sure the autistic ones really
AS>realized what was going on at the time and
KDM> I guess that's an . . . advantage, for lack of a better word.
And of course, they may fully realize what's going on. Since they can't
talk, who can say?
KDM> Brian, who was at the
AS>computer when the fire broke out, was the one who told my wife, who
AS>alerted a neighbor to call 911, etc.
KDM> Smart kid. How old is he?
Nine years old. He's the middle kid, but gets saddled with all the
responsibility of an oldest kid.
... Reality is for people who can't face science fiction.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Craig
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:01:00
EID:26a5 206a0020
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274E1CA
MC> King David and his Luciferian Establishment elite, want to make you
MC> his slave and put you on their "global plantation."
Come again? "King David and his Luciferian Establishment"? What particular
brand of paranoia are you peddling?
... Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. (Nietzsche)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: The 10 commandments
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:06:00
EID:24c4 206a00c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274E846
AS> DW> That is the one advantage to living in West Virginia.
AS> DW> People playing rap are shot on sight.
AS>
AS> JH> I would support a Constitutional Amendment to that effect.
AS>
AS> Do you think we could get a petition drawn up and send it to
AS>Washington? I know several hundred people who would sign it...and
AS>I'm sure you do, too.
KDM> Can we classify Hootie and the Blowfish as Rap . . . whatevers, too?
KDM> (Musicians or artists just doesn't work).
Did you recently see the "Generation X" movie on Fox where the two older
members of the group, Banshee and the White Queen, showed up as "Officer
Hootie" and "Officer Blowfish" when they freed Jubilee from jail?
... I came, I saw, got sidetracked, forgot why I was here ..
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 116/19 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: The constellation
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:07:00
EID:2cc4 206a00e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274EFB2
AS> KDM> But it's not his fault! Maybe it's just me, but I got the
AS> KDM> feeling Asmo never grew out of the anal stage.
AS>
AS> I hope you mean anal-retentive, and are not implying...
KDM> I must. I'm not sure what *you're* implying.
Let's just say, Asmodeus happens, and leave it that, shall we?
AS> I suspect I would have to sue Anton LeVay's Church of Satan for
AS>inciting the youth. He's doubtless living with his parents. He just
AS> strikes me as that sort, and is probably too young to sue, anyway.
KDM> Yep. People like him tend to be.
Until their parents kick them out.
... Some men are alive simply because it's against the law to kill them.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 116/19 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: Waco web site
|Date: 10 Mar 96 00:01:00
EID:b69e 206a0020
MSGID: 1:116/19 0274F3A4
AS> KDM> Ah, good, another site for my Mixed Nuts page.
AS>
AS> Here's another one:
AS>http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/index.html.
No, you're a special type of nut. You qualify for the "People"
KDM> page.
I'm honored. Sandwiched between Julia Roberts and Cindy Crawford, no
doubt...or is that People Magazine...or is that personal fantasy?
... I am, therefore I think, I think...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 116/19 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:06:00
EID:ceca 206a40c0
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Dan Ceppa <=-
AS> Ahhhh...where do you get off calling JESUS...a Jew...PETER...a
AS> Jew...John, the apostle...a Jew. David, Abraham, etc..."kikes, hebes,
This was wonderful, Al. But in your zeal and indignation, you addressed
it
to DAN.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:18:00
EID:37b6 206a4240
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Rena Mcgee <=-
JG> and the laws and legal institutions. We are not talking about modern
JG> day North America . We are talking of a savage land and a savage
JG> people.
Bullshit. Women always have and always will be able to adapt to whatever
they need to...with or without men.
It might behoove you to have us simpering around with a 'poor, pitiful,
weak,
little me' attitude, but don't count on it ever happening. I may not have
as much upper body strength as you have, but I've got a brain that will
show me a way to do the same things without needing that strength.
And yes, I KNOW what I can do. From survival in strange cities in foreign
countries to rural living with NO utilities.
Gad, but you are a puke.
... Death called while you were out, so I gave him your pager number.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: #SMOKE
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:38:00
EID:8322 206a44c0
-=> Quoting Mark Staal to Al Schroeder <=-
MS> ........Al, I heard, awhile back, that you were in #Smoke....You
MS> don't happen to know how to get there on the internet or have the
MS> correct address?
Use mIRC, connect to the undernet server, type /join #holysmoke. Be prepared
for what you get here in realtime.
... Sex: ____ Male ____ Female ____ Horse ____ Sheep ____ Other
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: BIG BIRD
|Date: 10 Mar 96 08:46:00
EID:59ef 206a45c0
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Judith Bandsma <=-
NS> BTW, did you ever hear of escargot pizza? It deliver itself . . .
And costs you nothing if it's not there within 30 days?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 11 Mar 96 04:14:00
EID:b591 206b21c0
-=> Quoting J.j. Hitt to Judith Bandsma <=-
JH> that speaks their native tounge or are too poor to be approved for
JH> a loan from a whitebread bank.
That would work except for one thing...this credit union is located in
the part of town where the homes start at $100,000.
JH> Banking is regulated by the Federal government. Credit Unions are
JH> a form of banking and will usually indicate that they are legitimate
JH> by including the word "Federal" in their name.
These are all true. But here in Charleston, one of the requirements for
membership in a 'Federal' credit union has been a 'Federal' job. If you
don't work for the government in some capacity, you can't get an account.
When I was looking for a bank for the business, I applied to one of the
credit unions as I supply Shaw AFB recreation department. They told me that
they would have to audit my books before they would even consider letting
me open an account. (This was before credit checks on banking customers
were
common.) As you can imagine, I wasn't really thrilled by that. My response
was that when they had IRS after their name they could audit my books and
not before.
... Therapy is good, but screaming obsceneties is cheaper.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: netmail
|Date: 11 Mar 96 04:28:00
EID:a8d1 206b2380
Since outgoing netmail is screwed up, I just want to acknowledge that I
got the latest from you. Sorry I can't answer it.
So, to keep them wondering...no, sponge cake really shouldn't be made with
real sponges: cajun 'blackened' cooking came about from an accident with
a spice rack and a flame that was too high: snowshoes don't work as well
as water skis: maybe you could supply fresh fish: check out Johnson and
Wales.
... Dan Ceppa: more fun than a tribble in your pants.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/19 97 200 803 911 379/10 380/25 387/31
SEEN-BY: 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001
SEEN-BY: 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500
SEEN-BY: 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 372/911 200 270/101 218/801
|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:11:00
EID:c556 206b4160
-> JA> made absolutely no sense whatsoever. (In a nutshell.) :) But,
-> the JA> good news is, I didn't ever get back on that medication.
-> That's great. In case my post saying that if you managed to reclaim
-> your brain without the meds got lost, here's another HOORAY for you.
-> Now, keep thinking, keep questioning and above all, keep looking for
-> the answers to those questions.
Thank you, thank you....may I take abow yet? J/K:)
No, that one about reclaiming my brain without the meds didn't get lost.
I was going to reply to it, but I pushed the wrong key instead and
didn't have time to go hunt for it again.:)
Lates!
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 32 303 400
SEEN-BY: 387/612 697 750 800 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 387/750 800 31 270/101 218/801
|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: JOAN WOULD LIKE TO CLEAR
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:12:00
EID:8e2b 206b4180
-> That's the one. However, a movie about her isn't the same as a movie
-> with her. Do try 'Mildred Pierce', I think you would like it.
Will do.:)
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 32 303 400
SEEN-BY: 387/612 697 750 800 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 387/750 800 31 270/101 218/801
|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:15:00
EID:ec42 206b41e0
-> If you've managed to deal with whatever problems you've been
-> experiencing without having to resort to medication, then kudos to
-> you. But remember that the drugfree route is not an easy one and you
-> will doubtlessly wish to be on the meds more than once, especially on
-> rotten days. There is some comfort to be found in the oblivion of
-> sheer apathy, but it isn't healthy and if you can find a better way
-> to do it, then do it.
Thanks for the concern, but to be honest, I wouldn't go back on the meds
for anything unless it would save my life, because they clouded my
thinking, numbed my emotions, and made me feel like I was walking in a
heavy fog most of the time.:) I am quite content to deal with my life
as it comes now, and so far I've been doing pretty good I think.:)
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 32 303 400
SEEN-BY: 387/612 697 750 800 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 387/750 800 31 270/101 218/801
|From: Joanna Amren
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:21:00
EID:6c2e 206b42a0
-> Do me a favor: read the book now with your new outlook on things. You
-> may agree with me this time; it's not a story about a big fish, but a
-> comedy that makes fun of a stubborn, head-up-his-butt preacher who
-> takes his religion just a little too seriously.
Already did it.:) I guess I see it as a story about some preacher-dude
named Jonah who thought he could escape his calling by running from it,
but his god showed himhe was wrong and blah blah...just like a lot of
fables I've read. I guess I have to agree with you, yes.:) I read it
this times like I would read the Iliad or something. Weird, huh?:)
-> I'm no enemy of the Bible, it contains some really fine literature.
-> And Jonah is one of my favorites. Sure, it's a fable alright. But
-> it's still a good read.
By no means am I against the Bible either. It has many good lessons in
it that I think everyone could benefit from, but I'm beginning to see
where it's really a mistake to take it all literally.
Lates!
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 32 303 400
SEEN-BY: 387/612 697 750 800 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 387/750 800 31 270/101 218/801
|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:24:00
EID:c556 206b4300
-> Good for you. I mean that sincerely. Isn't thinking wonderful?
Wonderful? Yah. Wonderful, marvelous, great, amazing, beneficial,
exhilerating, ecstatically fulfilling...need I go on?? I will if I
have to...:)
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 32 303 400
SEEN-BY: 387/612 697 750 800 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600 2002/2002
SEEN-BY: 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306
SEEN-BY: 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 387/750 800 31 270/101 218/801
|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:26:00
EID:cc2a 206b4340
-> What have you changed into?
Don't know yet. I don't think I'm done yet.:) But I know I don't think
of myself as Christian at all anymore. The thought seems totally
foreign to me. 'Tis weird.:)
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:28:00
EID:0635 206b4380
-> Non carborundum illegitimus.
Er...yeah...what you said.:) (What did you say?) I think just a
translation of the middle word there will be a big help.:)
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: Url!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:32:00
EID:20de 206b4400
-> What have you changed to, pray tell?
I don't know yet. I don't think I'm done changing yet.:) I'm still
thinking a lot of things through. But I know I don't see myself as
Christian anymore. I don't see how I ever could again.:) I guess I'll
just start believing what I know is true because I've seen it. I've
never seen any god, so why should I believe in one? I guess what I've
changed to is...a free-thinker? I dunno...
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM GERMIQUET
|Sub: animal abortions
|Date: 08 Mar 96 12:56:00
EID:fb1c 20686700
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Hector Plasmic <=-
-=> Quoting Hector Plasmic to Michael Hardy <=-
>>MH> Don't ask me for evidence of this; it is an article of
>>MH> faith. You either believe it or you don't.
>DR> Therefore, all criticism, discussion, and discourse are
JG> Excuse me, but why does the fact the "believing"
JG> something by faith, have to preclude "discussion".[sic]
Since Hardly has renounces reason, why try to reason with
him? What's the point? It's not possible to reason with
someone who decries reason.
JG> Even the bible[sic] says
Who gives a shit what the Bible says?
> we must be able to give an account as to WHY we believe.
The Bible says bats are birds. Dismissed!
JG> It is not JUST believe or BLIND FAITH that we must have,
JG> but a faith based on reason and common sense.
There can be no reason where there is faith.
>DR> utterly, irrevocably meaningless. One is left wondering,
>DR> why is Michael here in HOLYSMOKE then? If he believes his
>DR> convictions about his gods are merely a matter of faith,
>DR> then there's nothing left for him to say on the matter.
>DR> Faith knows nothing of reason.
JG> Of course Faith[sic] knows reason.
Then it isn't faith.
JG> How can you[sic] have REAL faith in something without
JG> having a legitimate reason to believe what you[sic] do?
People do it all the time, but the billions: they have faith
that an ignorant, long-dead Jew "rose from the dead" without
any reason for that belief. People have faith in astrology
despite no reason to believe it. The same is true with all
manner of nonsense: tarot, palmistry, phreniology, iridology,
dowsing, tea-leaf reading, psychic ability. . . all without
reason.
JG> I have DEFINITE reasons for why I believe in the
JG> bible[sic] and the teachings of Jesus Christ.
There is no such thing as a "Jesus Christ" in the Bible.
There is mention of Jesus, of who's "teachings" no one
knows about (he left no written records, and no witnesses
wrote about them).
Damn right you have "definite 'reasons'" for believing what
you do: you find the truth too uncomfortable.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM GERMIQUET
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 08 Mar 96 12:57:00
EID:0b45 20686720
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to Brian Kolacy <=-
JG> Are you kidding. JESUS IS A JEW !
Jesus WAS a Jew. (If he lived at all, which is doubtful.)
... Jesus can't perform tricks in front of skeptics (Matt 13:58 Mk 6:5-6)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM GERMIQUET
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 08 Mar 96 12:58:00
EID:c80f 20686740
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Eric Hendrix <=-
-=> Quoting Eric Hendrix to All <=-
EH> I know I'm going to get slammed right and left for this
EH> one, so let me say this right off. I feel there is no
EH> need for name-calling, blasphemous (to Christianity)
EH> replies.
DR> Does that mean you don't give a shit about blasphemy towards
DR> other gods except the various Christian gods?
JG> No it means some people here are stooping to some pretty
JG> cheap debating tactics.
So present a REASON why the occult beliefs professed by Christians
should be taken seriously, and thus silence the critics once and
for all.
... Bosnian Bumpersticker: Religion Stopped 25,000 Beating Hearts!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM GERMIQUET
|Sub: 1 god + 1 god = 0 gods
|Date: 08 Mar 96 15:31:00
EID:e7e9 20687be0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Brad Jackson <=-
-=> Quoting Brad Jackson <=-
>>BJ> You ask for independent evidence, what could be better
>>BJ> then God[sic]'s word?
>DR> My word is better than any words from the gods (after
>DR> all, all of the gods yet posited are self-serving assholes
>DR> at times).
>DR> However, no god has ever said or written anything, so
>DR> the issue is mote.
JG> How very true.
Of course it is true.
JG> God is a spirit.
Tooth Fairy is a spirit.
JG> But his spirit does speak to the spirits of men and then
JG> men right down what the spirit of god is saying to them.
But Tooth Fairy's spirit does speak to the spirits of men and
then men right down what the spirit of Tooth fairy is saying
to them.
JG> Tell me some of the ways people should act toward each
JG> other.
"What is distasteful to you, do not do towards others. The
rest is commentary."
JG> What is it GOOD for people to do?
Harm none.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM GERMIQUET
|Sub: Adolph Hitler (yawn)
|Date: 08 Mar 96 15:37:00
EID:d4a2 20687ca0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to John Prewett <=-
-=> Quoting John Prewett to David Rice <=-
>DR> [cuts by me--- dr]
>DR>
>DR> However, there are no tests for determining who is and
>DR> who is not a Christian, other than asking a person.
>DR>
>DR> Therefore, you're full of shit. Please see the doctor
>DR> for an enema.
JG> And that is where you make your mistake sir.
Sorry: no "mistake," ma'am.
JG> Jesus said "they will know you are christians by your
JG> love one for another".
Liar.
FACT #1: no one knows what Jesus may have said, since
he left no writings and there are no known
records of what he might have said that were
written by witnesses.
FACT #2: Jesus had no notion of what a Christian is,
since the cult wasn't started unill several
hundred years after he was stoned to death.
FACT #3: Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity:
the reprobate Saul of Tarsus created it.
JG> the definition christian[sic] includes a "follower of the
JG> teachings of jesus[sic] christ[sic]".
Since there never was a "Jesus Christ," there cannot be, by
your definition, Christians. Since there =ARE= Christians,
your definition is DEMONSTATED false.
JG> Does the person proclaiming to be a christian[sic] follow
JG> the teachings of jesus[sic] christ[sic]?
There's no such thing as a "Jesus Christ."
JG> And in a christian[sic] country the label "christian" is
JG> indeed useless because it is used as a social enhancement.
A Christian is anyone who professes to be a Christian. There
is no other known test for Christianhood.
... A virgin girl who is raped must marry her rapist. Deut. 22:28-29
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Christian Blow Jobs
|Date: 08 Mar 96 17:12:00
EID:5f44 20688980
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to J.j. Hitt <=-
>JJH> Don't you just love it how Prewett can sit on his butt
>JJH> collecting assistance money while makeing pronouncements
>JJH> about how things should be in the workplace?
FR> Like, "Get them wimmin outa the work place?"
Have you read the various California propositions that people
will be voting against this year? Someone on KPFK claimed that
one of the propositions will, if passed, remove large numbers
of women from the work force, and put them "back where they
belong: minding the children."
I've yet to read the details of the propositions, but I am
aware of their general premisses--- anti-minorities, anti-
"welfare mothers," pro-bigger-and-more-intrusive-government.
... "Let them eat cake." M. Antoinette "Let them eat shit." N. Gingrich
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "And furthermore, 'Don't call me brother.'" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:06
EID:a6fa 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c644
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet A LITTLE HELP FROM SP wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> Perception , perception , perception. You CHOOSE to perceive it in
JG> a negative way. It is like jogging. WHat a stupid thing to do. It
JG> causes you discomfort and pain, you run around in a big circle and
JG> end up in the place you started.
Mugger: "Give me your wallet or you're dead."
You: "No."
Mugger:
You: "Argh!"
This is an example of free will, according to you. In this example, you
were free to give your wallet to the mugger or refuse to do so. You did
the latter, and thus suffered the penalty. Now, watch this:
God: "Worship me or you'll go to Hell."
Me: "No."
God: "Pity."
There is *no* difference in the two scenarios, save in who is involved
and what is at stake. In both instances, coercion is involved.
JG> Yes allowing us to CHOOSE what we do is going to produce "growing
JG> pains", but without growing pains you won't grow. The lifespan of a
man
JG> is NOTHING in terms of eternity,The 2 million years we have been
So why punish humans for all eternity? Isn't that rather like smacking a
mosquito with a frying pan?
... I couldn't possibly fail to agree with you less.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:07
EID:9f9e 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c645
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS" wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JB> That's not where the fundies here want it. They want it taught as
JB> science. As far as social studies/history...you have got to be kidding.
JG> Why? Is it not a historical fact that creationism is written about in
JG> the bible and some people actually believe it literally. Personally
I
It's a historical fact that _The Vampire Lestat_ was written by Anne Rice
and some people believe vampires to be actual creatures. Should we thus
teach that vampires are real and that they have existed throughout history?
JG> wonder if when it was written , it was ever meant to be taken
JG> literally. And social studies, man is a social being. There is much
in
JG> the bible that is as relevant today in
JG> socializing as it was 10,000 years ago. Proverbs is a great book. ANd
JG> the sermon on the mount ? Ten commandments ? Not bad stuff.
How about the slaughter of the Midianite infants? Or the slaying of the
firstborn in Egypt? Or the killing of a bunch of kids who made fun of
one of God's prophets for being bald? Or any of the other countless acts
of violence and threatened violence listed throughout the Bible? Should
we teach those too, as being relevant to socialization?
... "Thief" is so ugly. I prefer "Creative Acquisition Specialist."
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:07
EID:1fe8 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c646
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: a theist hypocrisy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Jim Germiquet <=-
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: a theist hypocrisy wgah'nagl
PS> fhtagn.
JG> I think that if you allow a Hitler to kill people, then you in effect
JG> are also guilty of those deaths for allowing it to happen. I think
PS> Thank you. You have just charged God with crimes against humanity.
JG> Oh thanx, use my own words against me ...sheesh :-)
You should be careful what you say. You never know when it'll be
used against you, in or out of a court of law.
JG> Perhaps I was hasty in my words ? Are you guilty of thee death of
JG> third world people who are being murdered as you read this, because
JG> you are doing nothing to stop it ?
IMO, no. But bear in mind that that was your position, not mine. I made
no counters to your position--merely carried it to its logical end.
JG> Perhaps this is what God is doing with man. Remember what is said
JG> about judgement day ? Seperating the sheep from the goats, wheat from
JG> the tares. Maybe God is still giving us a chance. He is still warning
JG> us to stop. He is in the appeasement policy stage. Come judgement day
JG> he will kill his Hitlers.
So. God is trying to win everyone to him with an aggressive policy of--
what? I don't see God working anywhere in anyone's life. I see people
laboring under the perception that a god of those parameters exists,
but I see no evidence of the god itself. Why is God hiding from me?
JG> So I am beginning to see :-) Basically however I am really not trying
JG> to win some kind of debate as much as put forth a concept. I
JG> appreciate it when you make the attempt to understand what I "meant"
JG> to say, instead of just looking for ways to ridicule it.
In my own way, I *am* ridiculing it, but more with the object of making
you
think about what you're saying before you say it.
JG> As you say though, to some people he was considered one. More
Some people consider Hitler to have been a hero too.
JG> am sure you can find some on all of us. "For ALL have sinned and fall
JG> far short of the glory of God." And when you can't find enough you can
JG> misconstrue things and make them LOOK dirty when they in fact are not.
PS> If all have sinned, then every miscarried child goes to hell, as they
PS> are sinners who die without being saved. Bummer of a thought, isn't
PS> it?
JG> Not really. Because "For God so loved the world that he gave his only
JG> begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him shall not perish, but
JG> have eternal life." John 3 16.
Excludes unthinking blobs of protoplasm that might one day be humans
nicely. But those who consider such blobs to be human already must also
believe that they go to hell, if they are thinking scripturally.
JG> "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins
JG> and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
See the above.
JG> Two things here. 1) What does the world "all" mean. All people, or
JG> all people who are able to comprehend the word upon hearing it. Or in
Depends on the interpreter, doesn't it? Go ahead, take a shot--you've no
better than a 50% chance of being wrong.
JG> The reason I question this is because I perceive sin as having to
JG> do with intent. A deliberate choice of doing other than what God would
JG> have us do.
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" does not permit
exceptions. It doesn't say "All have sinned except for little kids and
people who can't understand." It says all. I take it that you are not
a literalist.
JG> 2) Who is to say that between the time we die and the time of
JG> judgement we will not have the opportunity to accept Jesus as our
JG> savoir.
Who is to say that at the time we die, God will not say, "Sorry, just
kidding!" and throw humanity into hell anyway?
JG> 3) We are certainly all born into the sin, interms of the consequences
JG> of the choices our forefathers have made.
This smacks of punishing the children for the sins of the parents, a
doctrine that has Biblical passages to support it and refute it, as I
recall.
PS> No, the power element is pretty much the primary factor. Pedophiles
PS> are into powertripping, not sexual gratification.
JG> I will have to take your word for it, I am not very familiar with
JG> pedophiles and their reasons for what they do. Perhaps some have
JG> various reasons and the majority is for power. Is that a possibility
?
There is always possibility. The only reason I know about such things is
because of my schooling.
... Join Campus Crusade for Cthulhu, call 1-800-OLD-ONES TODAY!!!!!
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:07
EID:d538 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c647
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Re: double standard alert wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JG> Isn't that a surprise concidering I refer to myself as a Christian.
JG> According to Karen all Christians seem to be murdering, lieing,
JG> thieves.
PS> Given the depredations of various "holy men" glorified in the Bible
PS> and self-proclaimed Christians (who are we to question? How could we
PS> know otherwise?) both past and present, can you blame her?
JG> Actually you are entirely correct. The so called holy men in the
JG> bible. Great men of god were involved in such things as murder and
JG> adultery.
David, for one. Lot, spoken of as a "righteous man," offered his virgin
daughters to be gang-raped by a crowd.
JG> While I certainly do not justify their actions, it would seem to me
JG> that God must be very merciful indeed with sinners, when they confess
JG> their sins and ask for forgiveness and seek his face and turn from
JG> their evil ways.
"...very merciful indeed." May I remind you that, were God a more thoughtful
god, this situation might not occur? An omniscient and omnipotent god could
doubtlessly have found a way to make sin an impossibility while retaining
free will.
... This copy of GEdit has been unregistered for 340,102,309,483 days.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: children
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:07
EID:072a 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c649
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet children wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> It boils down to making a "lesser of two evils choice."
JG> an interesting choice of words :-) Is there no choice that isn't evil
JG> ?
IMO, no. You can have an abortion--which snuffs out a potential life. You
can give the kid up for adoption--which does enormous psychological damage
to the kid and to the mother. You can raise the kid yourself--which will
do quite a bit of damage if the mother and the rest of society clearly
communicates to the child the idea of "you were not wanted." It also
doesn't do anything to relieve population pressure.
JG> Of course we must teach our children the proper way to deal with their
JG> sexual urges. That is a moot point in terms of abortion. Once the
Excellent. Let's start with sex education classes--explicit ones. None of
this dancing around the issue, no being puritanical about it. Tell people
exactly what can happen when they have sex, and what they can do to make
it safer for themselves and their potential offspring.
JG> child has been conceived, is it a sin to kill it ? There are many
You tell me. I'm not a big believer in sin anymore.
JG> options. To me the best option if possible is to have the child marry
JG> the father and raise the child in a loving relationship with help from
JG> family and friends if necessary.
You're being unclear. Don't you mean, "have the mother marry the father"?
But I digress. While this represents a "best of both worlds" scenario, it
is not the most realistic one, nor the most likely one.
PS> to improve themselves, then they will always be at the bottom, and a
PS> self-perpetuating cycle occurs.
JG> Does it follow that because a man is poor, he must also sin ? That a
According to some, it follows that a man who is rich must also sin. We
can discuss economics and religious ethics all you like, but you must
remember that these aren't pleasant times to be poor in. Frequently, the
poor are victimized in many areas--by the state, by their employers, by
the rich, and by themselves. They lack the economic power to defend what
little they have and suffer as a result.
JG> poor man cannot love ? Yes life may be more difficult, even impossible
JG> in some cases. But Jesus was not a man of material wealth and his life
JG> and especially his death I doubt would be considered an easy road to
JG> walk. Should we allow adversity to warp our souls ?
You are apparently suggesting a situation in which the populace becomes
ripe for rebellion--or for escapism by other means. This escapism can
take the form of drug abuse, spousal abuse, criminal activity, or
plunging into religion--yours included. Remember, Christianity spread
fastest in its early days amongst the slave population. Tell me that you
aren't trying to establish this situation again, or that you are at least
against it.
JG> I wish more effort was put into birth control, than in killing unborn
JG> babies after the fact. The majority of abortions are abortions for
JG> convenience. That woman who drowned her two children in her care did
JG> nothing more than abort them a little further on in their
JG> developement.
Look at it like this: many anti-abortionists tell us that 30 million people
have been killed since the Roe v. Wade decision in '73. I look at it in
another light: think of how much harder things would be if we had 30
million extra people in this country.
... "I never drink... wine." -- Dracula
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Bible
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:08
EID:cb67 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c64a
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Brad Jackson Re: Bible wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> Ok first off I don't know where you stand on the issue of Jesus?
There are several ways to answer this question. I'll try a few:
1. The "issue" of Jesus isn't something I'm interested in--semen's never
been a big thrill for me.
2. Since when has Jesus been a magazine?
3. I believe that Jesus was an actual, historical personage. I do not
believe that he was divine, nor do I believe any of the tales attributed
to him.
BJ> You are talking like you are upset that the bible is true. You have
I'm not upset that it's true--because it hasn't been shown as such and
the evidence supporting it has been rather thin. Until it *has* been
shown to be true, I have nothing to be upset about. It's no more disturbing
than a collection of medieval fairy tales.
BJ> nothing to prove that the bible is false. There are all kinds of
You have nothing to prove that the sun isn't a giant rubber ball.
You have nothing to prove that humanity isn't really a race of giant
purple toads.
You have nothing to prove that Cthulhu doesn't really exist.
You have nothing to prove that you're not a child-raping murderer.
My points are these: Firstly, proof is a property of mathematics (or of
liquor). It does not have any relation to reality as proof is an absolute
and absolutes are very, very hard to come by in the real world. Secondly,
attempting to "prove" a negative is a fool's errand--only the idiotic
or unwise attempt it or demand that others do so. You can ask me to prove
that God doesn't exist, but I'll only ask you to prove that Cthulhu
doesn't exist in reply. The truth of the matter is that you can't prove
that *anything* *doesn't* exist. All you can do is show evidence that
either enhances or lessens the apparent probability that a given situation
is or is not true.
But to play along with the gag, I *do* have something to "prove" that
the Bible is false. There has been absolutely no evidence of a global
flood found to date. Not a bit.
BJ> books written that prove the bible to be true. (Check your local
There are all kinds of books written to prove that Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep,
Azathoth, and other jolly fellows from the Mythos are divine beings that
occasionally act in this world, usually to the detriment of humanity.
What is your point? Books themselves are not evidence of much. And
remember, books can be and often are mistaken, fiction, or outright lies.
The status of having been consigned to words on a page does not
automatically make something true.
BJ> library) There is all kinds of evidence what happened in the
Really? Present some of this evidence. Now.
BJ> bible is true. Even some religions that don't believe Jesus was
BJ> God, do believe he lived!
Like Islam, and possibly Judaism. How many non-monotheistic religions
hold the existence of Jesus as a doctrine?
BJ> I quote from the bible because I know that it is true and I
BJ> don't need any other books to tell me it is! But if you need more
You sound exactly like a small child who insists that the sky is purple
and he doesn't need anything to tell him otherwise. You are free to
believe whatever garbage you like, but do not make the mistake of thinking
that I will believe the same or even accord your beliefs any respect.
BJ> convincing by all means, look the books up at the Library.
Give me some of the titles, authors, and ISBNs of these books. Go ahead.
I've got a library card and I'm not afraid to use it.
BJ> You reffer to me as stupid yet you know not of these books or
I didn't just refer to you as stupid. I also accused you of using
vegetable matter to think with. Do try to be more complete when
summarizing what I've said about you.
BJ> God! I will not call you names Preston, and sink down to your
Are you a fortuneteller now? Since when do you know *anything* about
the breadth of my knowledge and experience?
BJ> level. But I hope some day that Jesus can lift you out of the pitt
BJ> you are in, before it is to late.
I am in no "pitt," Brad. I have no problems with handling my life and
thus don't need the crutches that you do.
BJ> Preston I would suggest to you go and wash your face and get the
BJ> filth out of your eyes, that is clouding them from seeing the true.
Brad, I would suggest that you open your eyes and visit a library. Read
some of the standard scientific, peer-reviewed journals (not that
pseudo-scientific garbage from the ICR). Do some research. You may be
surprised to find how little evidence there is to support your claims.
BJ> Then go bye yourself a King James Bible and begin to read.
I already have a Bible, a hangover from my fundamentalist days. I read it
often, and find it to be a good source of humor and horror.
BJ> One last point, the bible was different writtings compiled
BJ> together to make the bible, so it was easier for us to read. You
So was the Mythos. Point?
... Lions 20, Christians 0.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re: Heavenly Father
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:08
EID:ea39 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c64b
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Brad Jackson Re: Heavenly Father wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> I'd ask for non-Biblical evidence, but I know you couldn't give it to
PS> me.
BJ> I answered that in my last message to you.
And I answered your answer. The joys of modern communications.
BJ> He is the first and the last, and besides him there is no God.
PS> Then why do the commandments mention other gods?
BJ> Well this is a very good point. The best way to say it I figure
That's why I made it.
BJ> so you could understand it is: People even look at satan as a god.
People look at many things as gods. What is your point?
BJ> So God was trying to show us not to bow to any Gods other then him.
You said "He is the first and the last, and besides him there is no God."
When are you going to get around to showing that there *aren't* any other
gods?
BJ> mothers or kings, saints and the sun and moon. Can you see what I
BJ> am saying? You know there are even churches out there today telling
Yes. You're remarking on the ability of humanity to worship things. Myself,
I think the capacity to worship invisible and more or less unevidenced
gods to be even more amazing.
BJ> people they preach the truth about God, yet they will ask you to
BJ> kneel to a statu, of a woman holding a baby or some guy hung on a
BJ> cross?
I take it that you aren't into icons, then. Calvinist, are you? Perhaps
Lutheran?
BJ> So you see God new some people would be disceived by these false
BJ> idols. He had to tell us not to do that and he did so many times
BJ> throught the bible.
Hmph. And here I was, thinking that you were actually going to show me
that there were no other gods. You didn't. Would you like to try again?
... Cthulu fthagn! Cthulu fthagn! Cthulu fthagn! Oh, wo!@(*^#*&NO CARRIER
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Brad Jackson
|Sub: Re:Ot verse Nt
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:08
EID:4d9d 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c64c
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Brad Jackson Re:Ot verse Nt wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ> I do know that the God of the old testament is the same as the new
BJ> testament. Why you ask! Because God told us this is the truth. I
Q: How do you know that the Bible is true?
A: It's God's word.
Q: How do you know that it's God's word?
A: Because it says so.
Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? You might as well have
believed Richard Nixon when he said he wasn't a crook.
BJ> Preston you also said you had looked for God maybe you had false
BJ> teaches that didn't show you the truth. I will go into that maybe
BJ> next time.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe *you* ran into some "false teachers"
and have been lied to?
BJ> I don't want to overwhelm you just starting out.
Go right ahead. Do your best to overwhelm me. I love people who try to
hand me BS jobs.
... Love your god, but wear a condom.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Matt Bronsil
|Sub: Re: Baptism
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:08
EID:0561 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c64d
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Matt Bronsil Re: Baptism wgah'nagl fhtagn.
PS> People don't know things in their hearts unless someone has released
PS> h. sapiens sapiens version 2.0.
MB> Unless he has released what??? :)
Microsoft has it under wraps. Forget that you heard about it.
BJ> could only realize this you would be so much closer to finding out
BJ> the truth.
PS> Ah, so we're all mere puppets on the stage of life. I smell a control
PS> freak, and it isn't me.
MB> Then who is it?
Brad, perhaps. Or any of the people responsible for the Bible. Adolf Hitler.
God, according to Judeo-Christian parameters. Ted Turner. Barney. Do you
want me to go on?
BJ> God loves us so much he came down and lived amoung us. His
PS> He loves us so much that he killed almost everything on earth trying
PS> toget rid of sin, and screwed it up anyway. Some god you worship.
MB> What did he destroy?
Ever read about the flood? If's a true story (and the chances of that are
even worse than the chances of my winning the Irish Sweepstakes and moving
to Switzerland), then God's a bigger murderer than Hitler and Stalin
together, easily.
MB> How did you look? Usually, when I cannot find my keys, it is because
MB> I am looking too hard and miss that I had a hold of them the whole
MB> time. Is it the same thing here?
No, it is *not* the same thing here.
BJ> Shelby God is the same from the beginning of the bible start through
BJ> to the end of it, once you understand this you will have peace
BJ> knowing you can trust in Jesus.
PS> This statement is obviously one made by someone ignorant of the
PS> Bible. TheGod of the OT is a bloodthirsty, egotistical maniac who
MB> Actually, it is made by everybody that studies the Bible. It is also
I've studied the Bible. I don't make such statements. Guess "everybody"
*doesn't* make such statements.
PS> Bible. TheGod of the OT is a bloodthirsty, egotistical maniac who
PS> slew nations and
PS> leveled regions at the drop of a hat. The God of the NT is
MB> Not really. What nation are you refering to?
The Midianite one. Various others that God had his little henchmen wipe
out when invading the Promised Land.
PS> better worship him or else.
MB> what is his body count?
Two that I can think of off the top of my head.
MB> Also...define "worship" It seems this causes several atheists
MB> problems since they do not understand this word.
Worship is the act of according extreme respect or reverence, usually to
the degree of believing that something is a god. It may be given to a
person, a mental construct, an animal, an inanimate object--anything.
And atheists have little to do with my ability to understand certain
concepts--I'm an agnostic.
... "A government supported artist is an incompetent whore." - RAH
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Evolung
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:08
EID:2a81 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c64e
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Andrew Masten Thumb-sucking Evolung wgah'nagl fhtagn.
KS> And what is 'there' theories?
AM> One would be A.I Orapin " Origin of Life" Macmillian 1924
^^^^
Couldn't you find anything more recent?
AM> He advanced various hypothesis of how life could begin from
AM> inanimate matter.
And are these hypotheses widely accepted by the scientific community?
... Be Alert . . . The world needs more Lerts.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876
SEEN-BY: 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:08
EID:80f6 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c64f
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DW> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male scum
DW> - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't phase those
DW> of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
I got your pic via e-mail recently. (Would have responded sooner, but
the computer center got the bright idea of going down during spring
break to clean up things and give everybody a brand-new randomly
generated-password. I love bureaucracies.) You don't *look* like a
Real, True Southern Male. You're not wearing a baseball cap with "CAT"
printed on it, you're not wearing shitkicker boots, and you don't have
a gut the size of Montana. You look more like an engineering prof or
some such.
... Cthulhu '96! Vote for The Old Party, and they'll *END ALL* problems
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
SEEN-BY: 153/920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711
SEEN-BY: 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:09
EID:1ba9 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c650
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell Waco Rememberance wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DW> If "tanks" had "assaulted" the compound, none of the BD's would have
DW> survived to testify, pinhead. You do know what an 120mm main gun does,
DW> don't you?
Terry's thinking of the Bradleys that were used. A Bradley is an AFV,
*NOT* an actual tank. Sure, they mount two TOWs, a 25 mm chain gun, and
a 7.62 mm machine gun, but they aren't even anywhere near the same class
as an Abrams. And a canister round from a 120 mm (yes, they do make such
things) would probably have spelled the end of all of the BDs.
... "Quick, to the BatTank!" --Tank Girl
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:33:09
EID:6d57 206b9c20
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 3144c651
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Barnett Angel Fundy wgah'nagl fhtagn.
MB> Now there are three other account's of a great flood That are not
MB> biblical in nature the are some differaces in the Divinty in question.
So what? There are multiple accounts referring to the divinity of Zeus.
Does that mean he's a real god?
MB> These are from Mesopotamian, one is from Sumerian and is the oldest
MB> and the fullest. The next is from a Akkadian text, and finaly the flood
Did it ever occur to you that there's a *reason* all of these stories are
from the Tigris-Euphrates area? The Fertile Crescent was the subject of
many floods throughout history--Woolley found evidence of a big one
dating to circa 2500 BCE in the 1880s. Now, you can take this the way
most intelligent people take it and say, "Gee. We have three civilizations
living in a flood plain. D'you suppose that they *might* have developed
flood myths without there being a global flood?" Or, you can believe the
tripe about there being a global flood despite the fact that no one has
found any evidence for it.
MB> is talked about in the Gilgamesh Epic. These all say that a "God"
MB> caused a flood that destroyed all mankind save one Man and his familly
MB> and that he build a great boat and save animals and his family. and
MB> that when the flood was over he made a scriface to God.
When something unexplainable happened in ancient times, it was usually
attributed to the work of a god--that's the trait of a primitive mind.
Nothing to be ashamed of, but it doesn't automatically mean that they
were telling the truth.
... I don't need to be born again. I got it right the first time.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 123/43 67 305 318 319 434 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:23:33
EID:ad7a 20696ae0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3143d671
GM> March 5 Tuesday
14. Wipe thine ass with what is written and grin like a ninny at what is
Spoken. Take thine refuge with thine wine in the Nothing behind
Everything, as you hurry along the Path.
THE PURPLE SAGE
HBT; The Book of Predictions, Chap. 19
ibid
... Gross Ignorance: 144 times worse than ordinary ignorance.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 121/45 8 106/2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Sue Alexander
|To: George Mooth
|Sub: Our Daily Bread
|Date: 09 Mar 96 13:26:37
EID:ad7a 20696b40
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3143d670
GM> March 4 Monday
Some excerpts from an interview with Malaclypse the Younger by THE
GREATER METROPOLITAN YORBA LINDA HERALD-NEWS-SUN-TRIBUNE-JOURNAL-DISPATCH
-POST AND SAN FRANCISCO DISCORDIAN SOCIETY CABAL BULLETIN AND
INTERGALACTIC REPORT & POPE POOP.
GREATER POOP:Are you really serious or what?
MAL-2: Sometimes I take humor seriously. Sometimes I take seriousness
humorously. Either way it is irrelevant.
GP: Maybe you are just crazy.
M2: Indeed! But do not reject these teaching as false because I am crazy.
The reason that I am crazy is because they are true.
GP: Is Eris true?
M2: Everything is true.
GP: Even false things?
M2: Even false things are true.
GP: How can that be?
M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it.
GP: Why do you deal with so many negatives?
M2: To dissolve them.
GP: Will you develop that point?
M2: No.
GP: Is there an essential meaning behind POEE?
M2: There is a Zen Story about a student who asked a Master to explain
the meaning of Buddhism. The Master's reply was "Three pounds of flax."
GP: Is that the answer to my question?
M2: No, of course not. That is just illustrative. The answer to your
question is FIVE TONS OF FLAX!
ibid
... Star Trek VII: The Search for Kirk's Toupee.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: Looking Foolish... (EVOLUTION)
|Date: 10 Mar 96 23:37:53
EID:9cb2 206abca0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3143d672
REPLY: 1:115/769.2 a6dedbf2
-=> Quoting Bill Wolff to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> Ya know Bill, you never did answer some of my questions before
SA> you disappeared.
BW> I always been here. I run a Fidonet Point and I've been getting the
BW> HolySmoke echo steady for years.
However, I did not see any responses to questions asked of you
months ago, and the message I initially responded to was the first one
from you in a long time. Leaving with unanswered questions indicates
some sort of disappearance, whether figurative or literal.
SA> Being a denison of the fair city of Madison, WI, I would be
SA> very interested to know where you worked on campus.
BW> I believe one place was called the Material Research building (white
BW> modern building with a smaller first floor with square pillars
BW> supporting the rest of the floors). As soon as you enter, you ran
BW> into the elevator. It's not a very big building at all. Each side
BW> was probably 150 feet long. Most of the other buildings were NE of
BW> there in the agriculture section. They too had electron microscopes.
There is a Materials Science Center associated with Engineering
Research but I am not familiar with that particular building on campus.
I may have to go look it up just for the sake of my curiosity.
SA> I bet you could even tell me the difference between Babcock
SA> Hall and Bascom Hall if you put your mind to it....
BW> Nope not at all.
A shame. I guess you never got over to the UW hospital cafeteria
for lunch...the food there is much better than at the VA cafeteria
though it is a bit of a walk. Babcock Hall is where they do alot of
dairy manufacturing research, so the cafeterias have their milk products
(including ice cream that is definitely worth noting) for sale.
BW> I knew where to get a temporary parking permit on
BW> the 7th floor of the Material Research building and down a few
BW> streets.
There really isn't that much parking in that area, is there?
BW> I also used the electron microscope in the basement of the
BW> VA hospital just west of campus a mile or so (maybe a few miles). I
BW> believe they had a Philips EM301 (probably still do).
How long ago did you work at the VA hospital? I am quite familiar
with the place and some of the people. Do you remember Dr Bloodworth?
A
quite rememberable man...
I do not know what kind of electron microscope the hospital is using
these days, as I do not know anything about the types of or operation of
electron microscopes.
BW> And what's the
BW> name of that street running north and south to campus that dips down
BW> under a low viaduct? Wasn't it only 10 feet high with flashing
BW> yellow lights? Is that still there?
Yes, Park Street still has the viaduct. I don't think they know
what to do with the thing, though it should really have been modified
years ago.
Sue
... We are the Borgs who say NI! Prepare to assimilate...A SHRUBBERY!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 1-608-238-3837, USR DS V.34 (1:121/45)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Sean McCullough
|Sub: 20 MOST DISGUSTING CA
|Date: 10 Mar 96 21:11:00
EID:9b82 206aa960
On 5 Mar 96 08:59pm, SEAN MCCULLOUGH wrote to ALL:
SM> TWENTY MOST DISGUSTING CAREERS IN THE UNIVERSE
SM> 1- Tobacco Corporation Lawyers.
SM> 2- Lawyer Politicians.
SM> 3- Lawyer Lobbyists.
SM> 4- Tax Lawyers.
SM> 5- Actors who aren't lawyers, but play one on TV.
SM> 6- Tobacco Corporation Advertisers.
SM> 7- Lawyers who advertise.
SM> 8- Advertisers for lawyers.
SM> 9- Divorce Lawyers.
SM> 10- Nazi doctors that experimented on Jewish and Gypsy children
SM> without anesthesia, who fathered Lawyers.
SM> 11- Serial murderers.
SM> 12- Lawyers who defend serial murderers.
SM> 13- Lawyers who are serial murderers.
SM> 14- Lawyers who defend serial murdering lawyers.
SM> 15- Organic farmers who supply Johnny Cochran with healthfull food.
SM> 16- Pimps.
SM> 17- Pimps who get a law degree in prison.
SM> 18- Child pornographers.
SM> 19- Kiddy Porn directors.
SM> 20- Porn directors who dress up children to look like lawyers.
21- Television evangelists
Becke
... Jesus saves. The rest of us rack up credit card debt.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 149
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:10:00
EID:5da4 206b4940
On 7 Mar 96 09:09am, AL SCHROEDER wrote to KENNETH CAVNESS:
AS> Yes. Especially the Pentecostal churches you attended when younger.
I
AS> have attended some charismatic churches. I myself currently attend
a
AS> Church of Christ (Campbellites) which many would call fundamentalist,
AS> although I would merely say religiously conservative in some areas.
I've always wondered what denomination you were...
Being you are a member of the Church of Christ, perhaps you can answer me
a
question. My family were members of the Church of Christ as I was growing
up,
so for my formative years, I was mostly raised in that denomination.
Needless to say, behind the scenes, my step-father was an alcoholic,
wife-beating, child-molesting son-of-a-bitch. My mother finally got fed
up
enough with it to divorce him. When the news of the divorce hit the
congegration, they shunned myself, my sister, and my mother, but allowed
him
to remain a member. Why is it that they allowed him to remain (then knowing
how he really was), but turned their back on my mother when she needed the
most support from the church?
I realize you may not know the answer to this...and if you don't, I'd like
you to ask one of your church leaders. This case scenario is one of the
many
reasons I turned away from Christianity in the first place.
Becke
AS> ... If it's not eternal, it's eternally out of date.--C.S. Lewis
AS> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
AS> --- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
AS> * Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
AS> B
... Fundy Logic: Lie 1 + Lie 2 + Lie 3 = "God's Truth"
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 149
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: YOUR DAILY DEATH CULT
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:10:00
EID:c2b4 206b4940
On 8 Mar 96 05:18am, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to ROBERT JACKSON:
-=>> Quoting Robert Jackson to Jim Germiquet <=-
FR>> SIGNS OF HATE
FR>> Read: Luke 14:26
JG>
FR>> "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and
FR>> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
FR>> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
JG>
JG>> Why do I get the feeling that this verse has been misinterpreted ?
RJ>> Because you don't _want_ to believe your cultfounder said
RJ>> that.
JG> I KNOW he didn't say that. And you will see in a response that I
JG> indicated the problem lies in the definition of the word "hate" that
we
JG> now use. The definition I would use for hate in this instance would
be
JG> more in the line of this one in my dictionary ... "..2. to be
JG> unwilling..". SO in this instance it would be "to be unwilling" do what
JG> your father and mother , wife and children, brothers and sister, yes,
JG> and even life itself tells you, and instead do what god is telling you
JG> instead. THEN you can be His disciple.
Sorry, that definition doesn't fit into the context of that verse. The
context the definition you are using would be, for example, "I'd hate to
see
you miss out on that bargain." The definition in the bible verse above is
an
active form of hate...as in opposite of love. Stop trying to explain away
all
the atrocities in the bible. There's just too damn many...
Becke
JG> ... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at Robert" ... Zzzzzap!
JG> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
JG> --- Scanned by Silver Xpress
JG> * Origin: `[1;37mRealm Of Darkness `[0;37mDemosúMusicúArtúCoding
JG> (1:2424/1004)
JG> B
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 149
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: All
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 1
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:10:00
EID:c071 206b4940
This is a document I came across on AOL that I figured would provoke some
interesting discussion...Due to it's length, I'm going to post it in a number
of parts.
Becke
CREATION PROBLEMS
Few topics in recent history have generated more controversy than the
question of how the earth and its enviorns were created. For years, two
major
positions--Evolution and Creationism--have been locked in an on-going
struggle for influence in the schools, the media, and elsewhere without
a
chance for immediate victory for either. I will not enter into the fray
directly because the issue involves a tremendous amount of technical
information lying outside the Bible per se. Creationism is, for all practical
purposes, an assault upon the integrity of nearly every physical science
and
in order to cope effectively with such organizations as the Institute for
Creation Research one would have to become quite knowledgable with respect
to
geology, paleontology, anthropology, astronomy, biology, archeology, physics,
chemistry, and other physical sciences. Few individuals on either side
are
sufficiently informed to conduct an impressive presentation. Nevertheless,
some general points of disagreement between evolutionists and creationists
are worth of note and can be discussed with confidence. Creationists obtain
their philosophy from biblical accounts related in the book of Genesis and
refer to it as "Scientific Creationism" (Becke note: is that an oxymoron
or
_what_?) But if their position is as scientific as alleged, then why does
it
clash with science on so many points? Prominent examples are the following:
(1) "And God said, Let there be light." (Gen. 1:3) and "...And the evening
and the morning were the first day."(Gen 1:5) versus "And God said, Let
there
be light in the firmanent of heaven to divide the day from night...And God
made two lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light
to
rule the night: he made the stars also...And the evening and morning were
the
fourth day" (Gen. 1:14-19)
(a) God created light on the first day; yet, there were no moon, sun or
stars until the fourth day;
(b) how could it be known when the first three days ended if there was no
sun until the fourth day?; and
(c) How could morning be distinguished from evening, if the sun and the
moon were yet to be created?
(2) "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed,
and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind...And the evening and
the morning were the third day." (Gen 1:11-13) versus "And God made two
great lights; the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to
rule the night; he made the stars also.." (Gen 1:16) and ""the evening
and the morning were the fourth day." (Gen 1:19)
Vegetation was created on the third day, yet there was no sun for the
photosynthesis until the fourth day.
(3) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen. 1:1) and
"...the evening and and the morning were the first day" (Gen 1:5) versus
"And God made two great lights; and the greater light to rule the day,
and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also" (Gen
1:16) "and the evening and the morning were the fourth day." (Gen 1:19)
(a) According to biblical "science", the earth was created 3 days before
the sun, the moon and the stars;
(b) Scientists say there are many stars whose light takes millions of
years to reach the earth. How, then, could they be 6,000 to 8,000 years
old as many Christians allege
(4) "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed,
and the fruit yielding fruit after his kind..."And the evening and the
morning were the third day: (Gen 1:11-13) versus "And God said, Let the
waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life...And
God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which
the waters brought forth abundantly....And the evening and the morning
were the fifth day.." (Gen 1:20-23)
Genesis says that life existed first on the land as plants and later
the seas teemed with living creatures. Geological science says that the
sea teemed with animals and vegetable life long before life appeared on
land.
(5) "So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that
moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every
winged bird according to its kind...And there was evening and there was
morning, a fifth day." (Gen. 1:21-23 RSV)
Geological science says fishes appeared long before the birds. They were
not created during the same day or period.
(6) "And God created...every winged fowl after his kind..." (Gen. 1:21)
and
"The evening and the morning were the fifth day." (Gen 1:23) versus
"And God made the beast of the earth...and every thing that creepeth upon
the earth after his kind..." (Gen. 1:25) and "...and the evening and the
morning were the sixth day." (Gen 1:31)
Science says creeping reptiles appeared on the earth before the fowl,
not afterwards.
(7) "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his
kind, cattle, and creeping thing, the beast of the earth after his kind:
and
it was so. And God made...every thing that creepeth upon the earth after
his
kind..." (Gen 1:24-25)
Science contends that reptiles were created long before mammals, not
simultaneously. While reptiles existed in the Carboniferus Age, mammals
did not appear until the close of the Reptilian Age.
(8) "And God said, Let the water bring forth abundantly the moving creature
that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament
of heaven." (Gen 1:20)
Birds did not emerge from water.
(9) "So God created man in his own image...male and female created he them."
(Gen 1:27) and "the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Gen. 1:31)
If Adam was created on the sixth day approximately 6,000 years ago
(Bishop Usher's calculation, then nobody lived before 4,000 B.C.
Prehistoric man would be fictitious. By tracing the genealogy of Jesus
back 77 generations to Adam, the third chapter of Luke also supports
belief in a very young earth. If each man had lived approximately 100
years, then the world would be no more than 9,694 (7,700 + 1994) years
old. If each of Jesus' ancestors had lived to be 1,000 years old (an age
not even reached by Methuselah), the earth would still only be 78,894
(77,000 + 1994) years old according to creationists.
(10) "And to every beast of the earth, and every fowl of the air, and to
every thing that creepeth upon the earth wherein there is a life, I have
given every green herb for meat: and it was so." (Gen 1:30)
Carnivorous beasts and fowl do not eat green herbs.
(11) "And God saw everything that he had made..." (Gen 1:31) and "on the
seventh day God ended his work" (Gen 2:2)
Scientifically speaking, unless God male organs or attributes, it is
difficult to see how God could be masculine.
(12) "And out of the ground the Lord formed every beast o the field, and
every fowl of the air; and brought them to Adam to see what he would call
them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name
thereof" (Gen. 2:19)
Enviornmentally speaking, how could every living creature be brought to
the Middle East or elsewhere without many animals dying because of
climatic changes and other factors? Unless divine intervention takes
place and that concept removes it from scientific consideration, as it
can never be falsified or tested.
(13) "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this,
thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon
thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt eat all the days of thy life." (Gen.
3:14)
If the serpent was a snake, snake-like, or reptilian in character, and
condemned to crawl upon it's belly, how did it move before? And does
science know of any serpent who eats dust?
(more to come--see next part)
... If we believe absurdities, then we shall commit atrocities...
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 150
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--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: All
|Sub: CREATION PROBLEMS- 2
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:10:00
EID:c131 206b4940
(continued from last post)
In order to extricate themselves from the problems associated with a six-day
creation approximately 6,000 years ago, many apologists assert that each
day
represents an age or era encompassing millions of years. In other words,
literal days composed of 24 hours each were not intended. Their belief,
however, is erroneous for several reasons:
(1) The word translated as "day" is "yom" in the Hebrew which means a
definite 24-hour period from sunset to sunset;
(2) Starting evening and then morning shows a 24-hour period was intended.
This was how Jews computed a day;
(3) If a dayis an era, why are an evening and a morning even mentioned?
(4) Actual days must be intended; otherwise, men who lived hundreds of
years, e.g., Seth and Noah, would really have lived for millions of
years. If a day is an era then a year must be tremendously long,
perhaps encompassing hundreds of millions of years;
(5) If a day is an era, then much of the Old Testament becomes chaotic.
For example, in each of the following verses, the same Hebrew word
"yom" is employed:
"And the flood was forty days upon the earth" (Gen 7:17) "And he
(Moses) was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights (Ex.
34:28)", and "Thus I fell down before the lord forty days and forty
nights..." (Deut. 9:25)
If "yom" means era instead of 24-hour period, Moses was "there with the
Lord" a very long time.
(Still more here, but I'm tired of typing--will type next installment in
tommorow's packet)
Becke
... "Truth through superior ignorance": The religious way!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 150
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
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SEEN-BY: 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37 369/110
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: CLAIMS OF DEITY CONST
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:10:00
EID:6e5f 206b4940
On 8 Mar 96 05:18am, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to FREDRIC RICE:
FR>> pretty much debunked when first claimed hundreds of years ago. It
FR>> ignores several facts entirely and doesn't address the question.
JG> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from. tell me
JG> WHAT went "bang" tell me WHAT made it go "bang". Oh yeah you will say
JG> it all came out of "nothingness". Then I will say my god came out
JG> of "nothingness". My god is YOUR "big bang". And you have about as
JG> much proof of where your "big bang" came from as I have of where
JG> "god" came from.
In order for him to have diety constructs, Fred would have to claim to
believe in a diety. He doesn't. Try again.
JG> You little religion is also based on faith. Some nothingness magician
JG> waved a nothingness wand and a "big bang" occured and flowers and
JG> rabbits started jumping out of hats 4.5 billion years later.
Scientific evidence means more in my book than bunk. He can back up most
of
his theories. The same can't be said of yours. Go on, Jim, give us evidence
of your God in charge 'o the old "big bang". Wouldn't that go totally against
the theories you claim to espouse in Genesis?
JG> DEBUNKED ? Hahahahahaha
Another variation of the old fundy adage "AM NOT!!" Say it a little louder
next time. You might actually start to believe it...
Becke
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 150
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: BIBLE VERSES
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:10:00
EID:7788 206b4940
On 8 Mar 96 11:53pm, ANTHONY GRIGOR-SCOTT wrote to DAN HUNTING:
DH>> Does anyone keep a list of contradictory, bizarre and genrally absurd
DH>> Biblical quotes I could used to needle this fellow a little bit? I'm
AG> There is no such list because there is no contradiction. Those apparent
AG> contradictions are where we lack faith (or understanding). And there
are
AG> books by unbelievers which specialize in these. Some of these can appear
AG> quite bizarre and absurd.
I have an extensive list that I could post here. If I take the time and
trouble to do so, will you at least look it over and comment or will you
go
running as the typical fundie would?
Becke
... You're like an idiot savant, only without the savant part.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 150
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:10:00
EID:75a3 206b4940
On 8 Mar 96 05:22pm, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to BECKE JONES:
-=>> Quoting Becke Jones to Preston Simpson <=-
BJ>> Undoubtedly, not as much as _I've_ missed being away for nearly a
BJ>> year!! It's good to be back...=)
JB> You've been gone but definitely not forgotten.
Good to know someone remembers me! =) Anything interesting happen while
I was
gone?
Becke
... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 150
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: FREEDOM
|Date: 10 Mar 96 18:05:00
EID:0e7b 206a90a0
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> You call that freedom? I call that extortion.
MH> Freedom equals extortion? That makes sense. Not.
No, I meant that "Do it or burn" is not a free choice but extortion.
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 11 Mar 96 06:13:45
EID:059d 206b31a0
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 14357117
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting SUE ARMSTRONG to JESSE JONES on 03-07-96
SA>Something you fundies never
SA>seem to do.
What is a "fundie?" And why do you call me one?
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/10/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
Now that you know who you are, what do you want to be? -Beatles
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.aa
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:02:06
EID:84ef 206a3040
MSGID: 1:250/820 00bd2857
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ÍDisclaimersÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
This product warps space and time in it's temporal and spacial location.
Do not expose to antimatter. Will not block gunfire. Do not ignite. Do
not eat. Definitions of words may vary. Contents may settle during
transfer.
Í1: IntroductionÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
See section 4.3 for details.
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿robeÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!³rtja³YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙcksoÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
The HOLYSMOKE echo exists so that off-topic religious issues from other
echoes
in Fidonet may be moved to an echo where they are topical. No one in the
past
four years has yet succeeded in helping any theist think past their
brainwashing, but there's always the chance that some god-believing cash-cow
will stop denying reality, so we continue to try.
All entries marked [OBSOLETE] will be deleted in the next version unless
someone asks for them to be retained.
This document is posted every four weeks.
Í2: TerminologyÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
atheist One who has no belief in deities. See 3.x for details.
Atheist Member of Amarican Athiests, inc.
athiest Used by theists to refer to those without morals.
agnostic An atheist without guts.
fundi Religous fundamentalist. See 3.6 for details.
liberal Anyone winning an argument with a creationist.
Hir Gender-neutral noun, "Her + Him = Hir."
Í3: Q&AÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
3.1 Q: What is HOLYSMOKE?
A: HOLYSMOKE is Fidonet's only non-denominational, uncensored religion
debate echo. Debates such as fundies vs athists can be conducted
here without danger of loosing your feed, like in other areas such
as HOLY_BIBLE or any other "christian" echo.
3.2 Q: Why was HOLYSMOKE created?
A: The moderator (Styx Allum) originally started the echo as a joke on
some local fundies. It took off from there.
3.3 Q: What kind of behavior is alowed here?
A: Most anything, including flames. One thing that will get you
booted is modification of other people's quotes. If somebody says
fuck and you quote them and change 'fuck' to 'f***' or some other
variation, you will be clobbered. Check the rules (posted on an
ad-hoc basis by the moderator) for more information.
3.4 Q: Are "flames" allowed?
A: Flames are EXPECTED. You will be treated with respect and courtesy
if you extend it. The most valuable contributors, who provide
references to what they say, are very seldom flamed -- if you don't
like flames, stick to posting what you know or can validate.
Saying "Because I say so," "Because I was told so" or reading
'PROOF' where someone wrote 'EVIDENCE' will turn you medium-rare.
A: It, seriously, depends on how you look at it. There are times when
a "polite" discourse just doesn'tget the message across. Then, the
board between the eyes to get your attention works. [Dan Ceppa]
.4.1 Q: Will argument from authority get me flamed?
A: Depends on the authority, and if you keep all quotes in context and
content. Claiming that several bright people support your
assertions therefore your assertions are true DOES NOT make it so.
Don't quote an astronomer on issues of biology, and a biologist on
cosmology-- which is standard Creationist tactics-- because you
will get roasted. Saying "Einstein believed in God (he didn't)
therefore you should" will also get you roasted-- bright people CAN
and DO believe silly things; just because someone is well educated
in one field does not make hir an expert in other fields.
.4.2 Q: Will poor spelling get flamed?
A: Often we see theists who mix up "Their, there, and they're," "Too,
to, and two," "atheist" as "athiest," and "your" for "you're." They
then in that very same message proclaim to reveal the secrets of
God, the Universe, Life and all the Really Great Questions humans
have pondered for a dozen millennia-- somehow a crappy speller
telling us they know what no one else does just doesn't seem
likely. If one does not know the difference between "Their" and
"they're" worth a Goat Belch, isn't it rather PRETENTIOUS for one
to be telling us all about how much one knows about god and the
universe?!
3.5 Q: Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so full of
anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke?
A: These phrases are often used as replies to excessively abrasive
arguments by an agnostic or atheist that has demonstrated the
religionist's pet assertions false; the religionist resorts to
eliciting an emotional response instead of addressing the topic at
hand.
A: You may be missing the point. The people who are ridiculed (as it
were) are not those who profess a simple belief in a creator; they
are those who insist their beliefs are correct and we MUST ALL bow
down before GOD before we all roast in Hell. Then there are those
who make ridiculous claims about the veracity of their "Book" and
attempt to use pseudo-science to "prove" they are right. As for
myself, I could care less who a person worships, although I usually
strongly disagree with their intent. As a secular student of
biblical times, I have learned a lot about what Christianity was
really all about (IMHO) and what life was like in first-century
Judah. Personally, I feel those who take the Bible literally and
those who follow Pauline thought should study more, and attempt to
understand what was REALLY going on! By far the biggest problem
though, are those who insist I should pay to support their
religion. Our city supports a separate school system for
Catholics, and the duplication of services and buildings costs
every one of us. There are many examples of religion being pushed
on those who do not wish it. We who do NOT wish to have anything
to do with religion must suffer through innumerable disturbances
from people who insist their religion should be in the forefront.
THOSE are the people who are the targets of ridicule in this echo!
[John Musselwhite]
3.6 Q: What is a `fundi'? (Also, fundy, fundies)
A: FUNDIE (fun'dee) n. and adj. (pl. Fundies), A member of an
American conservative religious movement that believes in biblical
inerrancy. This movement had its roots in the nineteenth-century
orthodox reaction to the higher (historico- literary) criticism of
the Bible that originated among European theologians and was
accepted by American "modernists". Fundamentalism owes its name to
the "Five Fundamentals", a list of five beliefs that the
Presbyterian General Assembly drew up in 1910 as being essential to
the Christian faith. Among those fundamentals was the doctrine
of biblical inerrancy.
Fundies (scientifically: Homo nesciens idiotus) come in two
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ab
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:04:06
EID:85af 206a3080
MSGID: 1:250/820 00bd5763
varieties; (about more later) but are united by the belief that
each and every word ("jot and tittle") of the Holy Writ (at least,
their latest authorized version) is unequivocally true. When they
find a text convenient to an argument, it is quotable as the
ultimate truth. But when confronted with an apparent
contradiction, however rational and logical, they sail away upon
the wings of a symbol, an analogy of hidden or recondite
significance.
Although two separate and distinct "kinds" of fundies exist,
(H.n.i. var. ruralensis and H.n.i. var. urbanensis), they can be
typically identified by their ubiquitous possession of a heavily
thumped (but seldom read) Bible; an almost cataleptic and
unquestioned adherence to dated dogma and the extraordinarily
annoying ability of being able to interject their own personal
version of ethics and morality into almost any subject, no matter
how abstruse. As a group, they are exasperatingly uni-dimensional.
H.n.i. var. ruralensis can be typified as a backwoods rustic
living among the 'possums, 'coons, 'dillos and magnolias who is
functionally illiterate. Though some may become transplanted to
more municipal settings; they stubbornly adhere to old habits:
mouth breathing, barefootedness and brainless Bible-based bleating.
A macroevolutionary jump (although most would argue that it is
really a regressive event) is responsible for the other variety:
H.n.i. var. urbanensis. They arose from their humbler cousins in
the deep, dark, dank backwoods but have evolved to exploit the
trophism of bright lights, television cameras, teleprompters and
wireless communication. Basically, a member of this group can be
described as a country bumpkin of the wacko-right turned religious
zealot and usually named Billy, Jimmy, Oral or some other familiar
sobriquet. They drape the mantle of Christian piety around their
shoulders (which they carefully interweave with the American
flag), and stomping off on a witch hunt; ferret out "fellow
travelers", "one-worlders", that archenemy of all right thinking
people: the "secular humanist", and other assorted bogeymen. With
a primitive view of this world and a psychedelic view of the next,
they harangue lost sinners (and those with the ability to think for
themselves) in an impassioned and declamatory style to "REPENT!"
and be born again. Ranting and raving; and spouting smoke, fury,
fire, brimstone and stained glass blather; they pace whatever
stage they can usurp like a whirling dervish with a caffeine
addiction. The venue may change, but the song always remains the
same.
Usually, such narrowly unspecialized organisms as the ones cited
above represent an evolutionary dead-end. In these cases, though,
it is more of a U-turn. [Marty Leipzig]
A: Fundy is short for a combination of two words emerging from the
same Latin root, _fundus_ (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay
the bottom). The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks.
2. the anus. Religious extremists, who do their thinking with
these organs, practice _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious
beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. 2. Among
some American Protestants, the movement based on this belief:
opposed to _modernism_. [Don Martin]
3.7 Q: "Why is everyone picking on me?"
A: Chances are, you deserve it. When someone asserts wild and
baseless claims, and then insists that others believe these claims,
one may expect a little heat. Some assertions that generate heat:
"My book was written by god because it says so, and god wouldn't
lie." "God hates such-and-such." "God loves such-and-such." "I'll
pray for you, you stupid ignorant gibbering idiot pitiful
atheists."
.7.0 Q: "Why is everyone attacking me? I'm only giving you the Good News"
A: Look. You don't see it as being offensive, or pushing, or whatever,
[to preach at us] but then *you* aren't the one being offended, are
you. Think of it in these terms: you are not the one who decides
whether or not someone else wants to hear about your religious views.
Indeed, the other person may have very well-formed and solid
religious views of their own. And your rather rude insistence on
discussing your religion and why that other person should start
*following* your religion is offensive. Understand? Its not the
content of the message which is offensive. Its the assumption that
you, as a Christian, have some sort of universal permission to ram
that message down our throats that makes us mad at you. [Jack Butler]
.7.1 Q: Everyone is calling me a bigot because I stand for Christ! [Oh,
PLEASE drive those nails in harder!]
A: Incorrect. Anyone who discriminates based on prejudice or other
unreasoned foundation is labelled 'bigot'. If blacks were known to
be rampant killers with no sense of the value of life, you would
not be a bigot to be afraid of them, or to point out that they need
to be controlled.
However, blacks are not rampant killers. Indeed, the only
distinguishing feature, as a group compared to whites as a group,
is their skin pigmentation - hardly a worthy basis for fearing or
controlling them.
You see? Someone who discriminates against blacks simply because
they are black is a bigot - the discrimination is entirely
unwarranted.
Many Christians are shown to be bigots by the words and their
actions. They discriminate against gays, against people who have
sex before marriage, against women, against scientists. All of
that discrimination is based on - and please make very careful note
of this - ***nothing*** more than their personal choice to adopt a
belief system of which such discrimination is an inherent part.
You can't point to God. You can't show that he exists. There is
asbolutley nothing in all of observed reality which even hints at
any deity, let alone a specific deity. The only way to adopt the
belief in such a being is *purely* by personal choice. You choose
to adopt a belief of discrimination and hatred.
Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more accurately the
Christian dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rather is a sane
and rational response to a very real threat? [Kelsey Bjarnason]
3.8 Q: What is "Crucifixation?"
A: A state of mental duress, usually inside a fundamentalist Christian
brain, that admires blood, guts, suffering, agony, drinking blood
of God and eating His body, and usually wishes to be crucified and
martyred hirself. This fixation prevents those afflicted with it
to question why Jews would crucify a heretic in the Roman fashion,
when death by stoning was the preferred method of disposing of sons
of Gods.
3.9 Q: What is the "Flood Of Ignorance?"
A: This is a reference to the so-called global flood 'theory'
presented by biblical literalists.
3.10 Q: What is "One Nation Under God?"
A: The state of theocratic opression that fundamentalists desire to
impose on the country in which they reside.
3.11 Q: What is a "Creationist?"
A: One who believes that the earth was created in six days, exactly as
told in the bible. Such people always fail to notice the two
different creation accounts contained in Genisis 1:x and 2:x.
3.12 Q: What's this "IHS!" thing?
A: This can mean a great many things! It was originally coined by a
HolySmoke Regular to mean "In His Service!" though it is not clear
just who "His" may be. Usual variations may mean "I'm Happy
Stupid!" SHIt backwards, "I'm Helping Satan!" "In Hitler's
Service!" "I Hate Science!" "Idiot Has Spoken!" "I heat sausage!"
"I Hate Spam!" and others far too numerous to mention. The most
common usage in HOLYSMOKE means "BULLtIHS!" The original meaning is
"In Hoc Signum Vincit," referring to the Christian crucifix as "By
this sign we conquer." [OBSOLETE]
3.13 Q: What is a "Not Real True Christian?"
A: When atrocities are performed by Christians in the name of God,
their partners in religion say they were not Real True Christians.
Some famous Not Real True Christians include Jim Bakker, Jimmy
Swaggart, Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler, Jerry Falwell, All Catholics,
Jeffrey Dahlmer, Mike Warnke, John "Todd" Collins, Mormons, God
Jehovah, John Salvi, Paul Hill, Senator Exon, Timothy Mcvay, David
Koresh and the IRA.
A: Any Christian who belongs to a 'false christian' sect. For
example, Catholics are false christians to Protestants.
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ac
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:06:06
EID:456e 206a30c0
MSGID: 1:250/820 00bd8669
.13.1Q: Now hold on here. You can't responsibly group those obviously
psychotic fringe groups that claim to be of God with the true
Christians among us.
A: Why not group "those obviously psychotic fringe groups" with the
rest of the *cough, cough* "True Christians"? You "True
Christians" do exactly the same thing you decry above, against
groups with which you disagree -- i.e., you characterize all gays
and lesbians from the actions of extremist ACT UP affinity groups;
you characterize all pro-choice people from the activities of a few
doctors who perform late-term abortions [in emergencies]; you
characterize all Liberals from the views of a few who are
doctrinaire Leftists. You and your kind demonize your opponents
from the actions of a few of the most extreme of their kind, yet
expect to be exempt from similar stigmatization? [Paul Boyer]
.13.2Q: What is a "Real True Christian?"
A: The Christian that you happen to be talking to at this minute.
.13.3Q: What is a cult?
A: Anyone who doesn't belong to the same religous group that you do.
A: A religon without political power.
3.14 Q: What does "IS NOT!" mean?
A: This is the common reference to Christian foot-stomping arguments.
(I.E. It's so because I say it is!)
3.15 Q: What is the "Theory of Creation Science?"
A: The exact account of Genisis in the New Testiment. However,
biblical passages do not meet the requirements for a scientific
theory. See 3.x for more information on scientific theories.
A: "IS NOT!" Creationists refuse to provide a theory of Creationism,
because they do not have one. Therefore it is damn hard to teach
it in public school, yet they still demand that it should.
3.16 Q: What are Star Goat and Dopefish?
A: These made-up gods are used as a defense against 'prove God doesn't
exist' argments made by theists.
3.17 Q: "Pink, invisible, flying hippo?" Excuse me?
A: Her name is Daisy, and she leaves invisible, smell-free turds on
the keyboards of every fundy that posts in HOLYSMOKE. Now prove
she doesn't! When someone brings up the non-measurability of their
favorite god (Jesus, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah), others bring up Daisy
and point out that the evidence she exists is identical to the
evidence their god(s) exist. See 3.16
3.18 Q: What's an Athiest? (note spelling and case)
A: Christians use this word to represent people without morals;
heathens without ethics; lawyers; baby-eaters; perverts; gays;
Democrats.
.18.1Q: What's an atheist?
A: From Usenet's alt.atheist FAQ:
Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence
of God. Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not
exist. The former is often referred to as the "weak atheist"
position, and the latter as "strong atheism".
It is important to note the difference between these two positions.
"Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of
God. "Strong atheism" is a positive belief that God does not
exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all
atheists are "strong atheists".
Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others
limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God,
rather than making flat-out denials.
"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he
doesn't exist?"
Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not
believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not
equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no
idea whether it is true or not.
.18.2Q: What is an "Agnostic?"
A: One who doesn't know, or give a shit, if God exist or not.
3.19 Q: What is HOLY_BIBLE?
A: This echo is run by Steve Winter (no S), who has professed it to be
THE ONLY =REAL= Christian echo on Fidonet, disregarding the dozen
or so other Christian echoes, which aren't really, but just clever
simulations by Satan into fooling people into believing that the
echoes are Christian.
3.20 Q: What is a Sheneism?
A: We often get Christians on the echo who claim they will shortly, in
a few days, provide proof of their god's existence, or proof of a
global flood, or proof that Earth is flat, or proof that evolution
didn't and isn't occurring-- just to vanish at the appointed time,
later showing up claiming a "hard disk crash" ate their proof (I
hate it when that happens!). The first time someone made this
claim, he blamed it on Satan. The next person this happened to
blamed it on his god, Jesus-- so they got us coming and going, eh?
3.21 Q: Why is evolution constantly a topic in HOLYSMOKE?
A: Creationists refuse to go to the EVOLUTION echo, because there are
several more well-informed scientists there than in HOLYSMOKE. As
yet, no Creationist has failed to be properly corrected of their
errors in HOLYSMOKE. There are several highly knowledgeable people
in HOLYSMOKE who can and do refute Creationists claims.
EVOLUTION is also less-widly carried in the bible-belt than
HOLYSMOKE is.
3.22 Q: Are there any Satanists here?
A: No. The best estimate of the number of Satanists in the USA is
from 4,000 to 5,000 individuals ("Satan Wants You," by Arthur
Lyons), so the odds of one showing up is rather slim.
3.23 Q: Why don't you pick on Satanists like you pick on Christians and
Muslims?
A: For a couple of reasons. First off, we only "pick on" someone who
makes irrational and absurd claims while expecting us to believe
them--we've yet to have a Satanist come along and do so. Second,
and more importantly, it is Christians who are subverting our
secular nation through political means, not Satanists (how many
Satanists sue the State so they may lead students in prayer?).
3.24 Q: Why do you hate God / Jesus?
A: Have you stopped beating your spouse? Do not make the mistake of
believing that attacks on stupidity is equal to an attack on a god
just because the person making the silly claim asserts he's
speaking for his god. In the three years I've read HOLYSMOKE I
have yet to see a single person hate God or Jesus-- just those who
claim to be these gods followers. Many Christians commit crimes in
the name of their gods-- we don't blame their gods: we blame the
criminals.
3.25 Q: What's this GOD$LOVE.GIF?
A: A child preparing to feed a bird. If you have an Internet address,
ask Martin Goldberg to send you a copy.
3.26 Q: NOODLES???
A: I know another preacher who, along with his church, prayed that the
LORD would help a pot of noodles last through a social dinner, not
only did they last, not only did several take home a container full
of noodles, but the containers always stayed full. Finally, they
had to throw them out, after thanking the LORD of course. I have
seen and heard of peoples lives changed dramatically for the
better, in ways that could only be called a miracle. The LORD
russles the leaves if you are willing listen." [Jerry Randall]
3.27 Q: What are the requirements for a someting to be a theory? Is
Creationism a theory?
A: I realize that you appear to have almost no scientific education at
all but I am posting this and the next message in the hope that you
may gain an understanding of what a scientific theory is. All of
these are used in an attempt to explain a fact. The theory of
evolution is used, according to these criteria, to describe the
fact of evolution. The theory of gravity uses these criteria to
describe the fact of gravity. When Einstein proposed a new theory
to explain gravity apples did not hang in mid-air while waiting to
see who was right, Einstein or Newton. The improvement or
alteration of the theory did not have any effect on the fact of
gravity. So it is with the fact of evolution. Please read on and
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ad
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:08:06
EID:872f 206a3100
MSGID: 1:250/820 00bdb56b
discover what a theory is...
A survey of the literature on the history, philosophy and sociology
of science reveals that there are at least four fundamental
categories of criteria by which theories are judged:
(1) logical criteria
(2) empirical criteria
(3) sociological criteria
(4) historical criteria.
There are four primary logical criteria for a theory. It must be:
(1.a) a simple, unifying idea that postulates nothing
unnecessary ("Occam's Razor" [see section 4 -ch])
(1.b) logically consistent internally
(1.c) logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must exist in which
the theory could be imagined to be invalid)
(1.d) clearly limited by explicit stated boundary conditions
so that it is clear whether or not any particular data
are or are not relevant to the verification or
falsification of the theory.
The need for these four criteria should be obvious upon reflection.
An idea that is too complex or deals with observations piecemeal
can have no practical explanatory value for a scientist. Theories
must make clear patterns of things and relationships between
things. These patterns and relationships must be internally logical
and consistent since these are required attributes of all sound
explanations. The explanation must be falsifiable, at least
logically if not by actual experiment, or else tautologies or other
logically sterile constructions might be admissible as theories.
Finally, a theory must be limited by boundary conditions or else
there will be criteria for determining whether or not any
particular observation or experiments should or should not be
explainable by the theory. In fact, if a theory is totally
unbounded, then it is not possible to imagine any observation that
is irrelevant to verifying the theory. Thus, an unbounded theory
would not be falsifiable. And, if a theory cannot be falsified, it
cannot be self-corrected. Yet self-correctability is precisely the
characteristic that gives scientific theories their epistemological
power: a theory that is incorrect or incomplete can, by attempts
to falsify it, reveal its faults or limitations and so be corrected
or extended.
Three empirical criteria are of primary importance as well. A
theory must:
(2.a) be empirically testable itself or lead to predictions
or retrodictions that are testable
(2.b) actually make verified predictions and/or retrodictions
(2.c) concern reproducible results
(2.d) provide criteria for the interpretation of data as
facts, artifacts, anomalies, or as irrelevant.
The basic point is that not all data are valid for testing any
particular theory. Some data may be interpreted as factual (that
is, they fall within the boundary conditions specified by the
theory and verify its predictions or retrodictions); some may be
artifactual (that is, the result of secondary or accidental
influences lying outside the boundaries set for the validity of the
theory); some are anomalous (that is, demonstrably valid within the
bounds of the theory, but also at odds with predictions or
retrodictions made by the theory); some are irreproducible and so,
invalid; and some are irrelevant since they address the theory not
at all.
Once again, the necessity of these criteria should be relatively
self-evident. It is possible to imagine theories that are logically
falsifiable but experimentally untestable (as when the technology
does not exist to convert the logical test into an empirical test).
Such a theory cannot be either verified or falsified and so is
useless in practice to an experimental scientist. One can, at best,
only leave such empirically untestable ideas in the scientific
purgatory of doubt. A theory must also limit what may possibly be
observed in the universe. Otherwise, one would not know what to
look for, where, how to look for it, under what conditions, or know
whether what one saw was relevant or irrelevant to the theory. If
everything is possible under an explanation, then no tests for it
can exist.
A theory must also make verified predictions and retrodictions to
validate itself. It is possible otherwise to imagine theories that
make predictions and retrodictions all of which are falsified. A
theory whose predictions and retrodictions are falsified, either by
the prior existence of relevant data or the subsequent discovery of
relevant data, cannot be considered a valid theory. It is in need
of correction or extension. And, of course, a theory based upon
irreproducible results is, in effect, invalidated by the very fact
that the results cannot be reproduced - for either the boundary
conditions governing the collection of the data have not been
properly set, or the original data may have been due simply to
coincidence rather than any mechanism proposed by the theory.
Sociological criteria also exist for determining the validity of a
theory. A theory must:
(3.a) resolve recognized problems, paradoxes, and/or
anomalies irresolvable on the basis of preexisting
scientific theories
(3.b) pose a new set of scientific problems upon which
scientists may work
(3.c) posit a "paradigm" or problem-solving model by which
these new problems may be expected to be resolved
(3.d) provide definitions of concepts or operations
beneficial to the problem-solving abilities of other
scientists.
Once again, the need for these criteria is manifest. An idea that
does not resolve any recognized scientific problems cannot be
called a scientific theory. It can have no effect upon the research
activity of scientists. Similarly, an explanation that does not
pose new problems does not allow scientists to learn anything they
were unable to learn before. A theory therefore has no
sociological value unless it provides a model for new or more
efficient sorts of scientific activity. Thus, a theory must be
stated in terms that are operationally useful to the community of
scientists who might use the theory. If the definitions or
concepts upon which the theory is based are not operationally
useful, then the explanation says nothing experimentally verifiable
about nature. Such an explanation cannot, therefore, be scientific.
Finally, there is a fourth set of theory criteria as well:
historical ones. A theory must:
(4.a) meet or surpass all of the criteria set by its
predecessors or demonstrate that any abandoned criteria
are artifactual
(4.b) be able to accrue the epistemological status acquired
by previous theories through their history of testing
or, put another way, be able to explain all of the data
gathered under previous relevant theories in terms
either of fact or artifact (no anomalies allowed)
(4.c) be consistent with all preexisting ancillary theories
that already have established scientific validity.
These criteria are necessary to ensure that theories are
correctable. Correctability, in turn, ensures the increase in
explanatory power of scientific theories with time, and promotes
the consistency and integration of all scientific explanations,
without such criteria, scientists would be free to pick and choose
data that favor their explanations while ignoring previously
recorded evidence and theories that falsify their own ideas. The
historical criteria make such unscientific procedures nearly
impossible. The historical records of each science stand as a
monument to the series of tests any new theory must pass to prove
its mettle against the accumulated knowledge of nature. The longer
a science has existed, the greater the accumulated knowledge
concerning any particular aspect of nature. Consequently, the more
difficult it becomes to reformulate all of that knowledge into a
new and consistent framework. [Robert Root-Bernstein]
In short ...[-ch] if you have a better theory of how the diversity
of species came to be as they are on this planet you must fit it
into the above (and preceding) framework. While your theory is
being tested and evaluated the diversity of species will remain as
they now are. The facts that are manifest under the banner of
evolution will not go away while your theory is being developed. If
you can come up with a theory to explain the fact of evolution that
fits these criteria I will accept it... but _only_ if you can do so
and not before. [Simon Ewins]
--- MPost/2 v1.1
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PATH: 250/820 501 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ae
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:10:06
EID:47ee 206a3140
MSGID: 1:250/820 00bde47d
3.28 Q: Is there a biological basis for fundamentalism? I mean, people
can't be this stupid without extra help.
A: You (and others here) may find interesting the article by Rebecca
Lee, "The Jerusalem Syndrome" in The Atlantic Monthly (May 1995, pp
24-38). There are LOTS of Messiahs around, and protestants are
particularly susceptible. All it takes for many is to visit
Jerusalem and experience a religious overload. The authorities find
ice middle-class Americans wandering the surrounding hillsides,
dressed in bedsheets. David Koresh was one such who recognized his
own divinity in 1983 and did not get treatment for it.
The treatment is a drug Haloperidol, "a dopamine antagonist; some
psychiatrists hypothesize that too much dopamine can cause the mind
to be overactive and project to excess, to translate what _is_ into
what _might be_--an action of faith. An overabundance of dopamine,
then may blur the differences on perceives between oneself and God.
Haloperidol blocks some of the dopamine receptors, closes the
gates, prevents interplay in the mind between what is seen and what
is unseen, discourages the leap of faith. Physicians keep the
dosage very low, however, fearing that too much of the drug might
wipe out the religious imagination entirely." (p 38, col a)
Perhaps we atheists are simply hypodopaminic to the hyper-of the
fundies. Better things for better living through chemistry . . . .
[Now all you need to do is slip a large amount of Haloperidol into
Washington D.C's water supply and you'll have no more fundies in
office...]
3.29 Q: What is the Necronomicon?
A: [...] The Necronomicon began life as an interesting and eldritch
bit of frippery that H. P. Lovecraft invented to liven up some of
his stories and add the element of Things Which Man Was Not Meant
To Know to them. Abdul Alhazred is likewise a fiction.
The only book bearing the name that I have seen in print was
written in the late '70s and is a mish-mash of pseudo-Sumerian
babble. It is not the "real" Necronomicon, if there ever could be
such a thing. It is merely a stupidly written and very funny bit of
junk whose main claim to fame is the use of the title.
Most people with any sense whatsoever realize that the Necronomicon
is indeed a fraud and anyone purporting to have anything like a
real copy of it is off his gyros. [Preston Simpson]
3.30 Q: How old is the earth? How do we know?
A: The most direct means for calculating the earth's age is a Pb/Pb
isochron age, derived from samples of the earth and meteorites.
This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206,
Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of
Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-208/Pb-204.
If the solar system formed form a common pool of matter, which was
uniformly distributed in terms of Pb isotope ratios, then the
initial plots for all objects from that pool of matter would fall
on a single point. However, amounts of Pb-206 and Pb-207 will
change in some samples, as these isotopes are decay end-products of
U (U-238 decays to Pb-206, and U-235 decays to Pb-207).
If the source of the solar system was also uniformly distributed
with respect to U isotope ratios, then this change will cause the
data points to move away from each other, but they will always fall
on a single line. And from the slope of the line we can derive the
amount of time which has passed since the pool of matter became
separated into individual objects.
A creationist would object to all of the "assumptions" listed
above. However, the test for these assumptions is the plot of the
data itself. The actual underlying assumption is that, if those
requirements have not been met, there is no reason for the data to
plot on a line.
The resulting plot for five meteorites that contained uranium, a
single data point for all meteorites that do not, and one for
modern ocean sediments. It looks like this:
Y-axis: ratio of Pb[207]/Pb[204]
X-axis: ratio of Pb[206]/Pb[204].
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³ 7 ³
³ ³
30 Ã ´
³ ³
³ 6 ³
³ ³
³ ³
20 Ã ´
³ ³
³ 4 5 ³
³ 3 ³
³ 2 ³
10 Ã 1 ´
³ ³
³ ³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÙ
10 20 30 40 50
Data points: (1) Iron Meteorites; (2) Beardsley; (3) Modern
sediments and young galenas; (4) Saratov; (5) Elenovka; (6)
Richardton; (7) Nuevo Laredo. I can't really do it justice in
ASCII, I recommend interested parties to get the original.
(Dalrymple, 1986, Figure 12)
The slope of the line in the above chart gives an age of 4.55 ñ
0.07 billion years.
Most of the other measurements for the age of the earth rest upon
calculating an age for the solar system by dating objects which are
less geologically active (such as meteorites). Below is a table of
radiometric ages derived from groups of meteorites:
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
Number
Type Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr)
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
Chondrites 13 Sm-Nd 4.21 +/- 0.76
Carbonaceous chondrites 4 Rb-Sr 4.37 +/- 0.34
Chondrites (undist. H) 38 Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.02
Chondrites (all) 50 Rb-Sr 4.43 +/- 0.04
H Chondrites (undist.) 17 Rb-Sr 4.52 +/- 0.04
H Chondrites 15 Rb-Sr 4.59 +/- 0.06
L Chondrites (rel. und.) 6 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.12
L Chondrites 5 Rb-Sr 4.38 +/- 0.12
LL Chondrites (undist.) 13 Rb-Sr 4.49 +/- 0.02
LL Chondrites 10 Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.06
E Chondrites (undist.) 8 Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.04
E Chondrites 8 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.13
Eucrites (polymict) 23 Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.19
Eucrites 11 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.30
Eucrites 13 Lu-Hf 4.57 +/- 0.19
Diogenites 5 Rb-Sr 4.45 +/- 0.18
Iron (+ St. Severin) 8 Re-Os 4.57 +/- 0.21
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 291; duplicate studies on identical
meteorite types omitted.)
As shown in the table, there is excellent agreement on about 4.5
billion years, between hundreds of different meteorites and by
several different dating methods.
Further, studies on individual meteorites generally give concordant
ages by multiple radiometric means. For example:
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
Meteorite Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr)
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
Guarena w-rock Ar-Ar 4.44 +/- 0.06
13 sam Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.08
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Olivenza 18 sam Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.16
w-rock Ar-Ar 4.49 +/- 0.06
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Saint Severin 4 sam Sm-Nd 4.55 +/- 0.33
10 sam Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.15
w-rock Ar-Ar 4.43 +/- 0.04
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Juvinas 5 sam Sm-Nd 4.56 +/- 0.08
5 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.07
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
SEEN-BY: 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1
SEEN-BY: 282/1 4073 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105
SEEN-BY: 355/2 362/37 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100
SEEN-BY: 600/253 760/600 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606
SEEN-BY: 2613/5 2622/0 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18
SEEN-BY: 3612/240 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 250/820 501 99 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.af
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:12:08
EID:46ae 206a3180
MSGID: 1:250/820 00be138c
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Y-75011 9 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.05
7 sam Sm-Nd 4.52 +/- 0.16
ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
(After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 286; meteorites dated by only a single
means omitted, duplicated methods omitted.)
Also note that the meteorite ages (both when dated mainly by Rb-Sr
dating in groups, and by multiple means individually) are in exact
agreement with the solar system "model lead age" produced earlier.
[Chris Stassen]
3.31 Q: What is evolution?
A: "Evolution", to biologists, refers to that change in gene
frequencies of populations over the generations in time that
produces new species. Darwin called it "descent with modification":
a painfully slow process, usually operating over hundreds of
thousands, if not millions, of years and generations. Geological
and paleontological additions to this definition are noted in the
fact that over the span of geological time, organisms have
progressed from the simple to the more complex.
There are four commonly confused meanings of evolution, which
should be kept quite separate and distinct: (1.) the general
process of populational and specific (i.e., giving rise to new
species) change, which is considered a well established scientific
fact, (2.) inevitable "progress" from lower to higher life forms
[though now largely discredited], (3.) the particular history of
the "Tree of Life" and the origins of various groups, or
phylogenies, which are interpreted from the fossil record and
biochemical studies; and (4.) the mechanism of evolution, which
Darwin and Wallace proposed as "natural selection", but is
currently being investigated and modified by scientific research.
Punctuated equilibria is an example of the latter.
Here following are some of the major arguments and objections that
Creationists never tire of bringing up - and some answers from the
perspective of mainstream science:
1. FACT, OR THEORY?
Evolution became established as fact because it unified
thousands of disparate observations by comparative
anatomists, botanists, field naturalists, geologists,
paleontologists, geneticists and biochemists. Without the
unifying concept of a changing world in process over eons of
time, modern science could not and would not exist. That
species are related through common ancestry is supported by
scores of interlocking research fields, each which supports
the rest. Evolution is as well established fact as
gravitation. As noted by S.J. Gould, apples are not going to
stop falling in midair while scientists debate whether
Newton's law of gravitation has been superseded by
Einstein's theories. And species keep on changing over time,
while we continue to search for the why and how of evolution.
If one insists that evolution is but one interpretation of
nature, what is the alternative? That the thousands of
dinosaurs and species that preceded them and postdated them
were _not_ related to each other, appeared full blown and had
no common connections? Such a model, call it "religious" or
call it "creation science", cannot lead to fruitful inquiry.
It is rather an answer that stops all further questions.
2. "GENERAL" EVOLUTION VS. SPECIATION:
While some critics concede that new species (_Drosophilia
sp._, for example) have been produced in the lab, they claim
general evolution has never been experimentally demonstrated.
By this, they mean breeding a succession of progressively
"higher" or more complex species. But, there is no such
theory of general evolution (i.e., a strawman), the old
Victorian notions of "inevitable progress" as opposed to the
simple to more complex progress noted in the fossil record,
biologically are outmoded and well discarded.
3. TRANSITIONAL FORMS:
The time worn and oft-repeated claim that there are no
transitional forms is demonstrably false. The Great Karroo
region of South Africa is a vast graveyard of mammal-like
reptiles, a whole array of species whose anatomy was
intermediate between reptiles and mammals. There is the
famous _Archeopteryx_, with its feathers, teeth, claws and
dinosauroid skeleton, a clear transition between reptiles and
birds. And the African homonid fossils represent creatures
with human-like dental patterns, small brains, arms longer
than humans but shorter than modern apes, with pelves, feet
and legs for upright walking. Transitional fossils are
fairly rare because, going by current theory, most species
remain stable for long periods. When change does occur, it
happens in a relatively rapid (in geological terms) timespan
and oftimes occurred in small, isolated populations. The
fossil record has been compared to freezing a multileveled
parking garage in time. Most cars would be found on the
various floors, with very few on the ramps. The amount of
time each car spends on the ramp is short when compared to
the length of time it remains parked, yet each must have
traveled the ramp. Another evidence of transition is found
in biogeographic distribution of living species. On Pacific
island chains, biologists have tracked populational species
across thousands of miles, discovering intermediate forms
from one end of the island chain to the other. Among living
species, there is a series of intermediate species between
lizards and snakes, sharks and skates, and thrushes and
wrens.
4. EVIDENCE AND "PROOF":
There is a very common misconception the Darwin thought he
had "proved" by logic that species evolved. He was, in fact,
a much subtler thinker and philosopher of science. "The
change of species cannot be directly proved, and...the
doctrine must sink or swim according as it groups and
explains [disparate] phenomena. It is unequivocally curious
how few people judge it this way, which is the correct way.
5. "HOLES" AND QUESTIONS:
That there are "holes" and unanswered questions in
evolutionary theory (just as there are in quantum theory) is
incontrovertible, which is normal for healthy science. As
noted by Huxley: "If lost in a dark forest, would you reject
a dim, flickering lantern on the grounds the light it gave
was imperfect?" "I think not", mused Huxley, "I think not."
6. TAUTOLOGY OF "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST":
This hoary old chestnut that evolutionary theory is built on
the tautological pretense that "the survivors survive" was
laid to rest long ago. Critics argue that "only the fittest
survive" is an untestable proposition without a uniform
definition of fitness and, therefore, meaningless as an
explanation.
But whatever the state of those archaic "catch-phrases", such
as "survival of the fittest" and "man came from monkeys", the
heart of Darwin's theory remains sound: overproduction of
offspring in nature, genetic variability and a sorting
process, which results in both long-term stability and
episodic divergence of populations. Increasingly, new
research is focusing on gaining a deeper understanding of
these mechanisms of genetic variation and differential
sorting as they occur on various levels within populations of
the same organism.
7. "JUST HISTORY, NOT SCIENCE":
Some assume that research and inquiry into biology and
zoology must lead to the formulation of fixed laws like those
of chemistry or physics. Dissecting the anatomical structures
of extinct creatures, working out their distribution in
evolutionary hyperspace and reconstructing the Earth's past
indeed meets and exceeds all the criteria of science; as
evidenced by paleontology, geology and biostratigraphy.
The kind of scientific illiteracy that rejects evolution as a
"humanist religious belief" can result in serious errors in
understanding and even the loss of human life. For example, Dr.
L.L. Bailey of the infamous Loma Linda University (Seventh-Day
Adventist) "school" of medicine tried to save the life "Baby Fae",
an infant born with a severely malformed heart. He surgically
implanted a baboon's heart, but the organ was quickly rejected and
the child died.
He was asked, after the debacle, why he didn't instead use a
--- MPost/2 v1.1
* Origin: Is this thing on? (1:250/820)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 147/76 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103
SEEN-BY: 200/204 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
|To: All
|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ag
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:14:08
EID:866f 206a31c0
MSGID: 1:250/820 00be428b
chimpanzee's heart instead, which would have offered a much better
chance of success because of the chimp's closer evolutionary
proximity and genetic fit. Dr. Bailey replied that he "didn't
believe in evolution," and in any case, "couldn't see what it had
to do with the practice of medicine."
Add this to the willful distortions, out-of-context quoting, and
bald-faced lies of those who populate El Cajon's oxymoronically
monikered "Institute of Creation Research"; who spend their time at
their self-described "God directed ministry" trying to inculcate
their own particularly skewed, and narrowly sectarian, version of
Biblically mandated (or so they say) morality, into the science
curricula of public schools across the nation; and we can see how
the unfortunate bastard child of hard-shell religion and fanatical
pseudoscience is indeed homeless.
Mainstream science has no place for "Creation Science", other than
a prime example of a once popular belief that has been shown to be
an intriguing mistake. With its anti-scientific documents, specious
reasonings, supernormal occurrences and non-mechanistic processes,
it belongs in that dustbin of outdated and useless speculations
like it brethren "Flat-Earthism" and Geocentrism.
Mainstream religion also has no room at the inn for the
hyperliteral interpretation, and concomitant internal
contradictions and paradoxes, of scripture that the ICR crowd try
to pawn off as "religiously-ordained".
Certainly, "Creation Science" is nothing more that an authoritarian
philosophy, a sham and a manifestation of supernaturalism trying,
in vain, to somewhere find a home.
It is not at all surprising that virtually everyone is hanging out
"No Vacancy" signs whenever they ooze into town. [Marty Leipzig]
Í4: Debate TermsÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
4.1 ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM
Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because
it has
not been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something
must
be false because it has not been proved true. (Note that this is not the
same
as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true, a basic
scientific principle.)
Examples:
"Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise."
"Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist. Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real."
Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is generally
assumed innocent until proven guilty.
Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce
certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can
validly be used to infer that the event did not occur. For example:
"A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water
to
be present on the earth. The earth does not have a tenth as much water,
even
if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles. Therefore no such
flood occurred."
4.2 ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM
This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists
of
asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the
more
likely it is that that proposition is correct.
Examples:
"The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is. Are you trying
to
tell them that they are all mistaken fools?"
"Eat shit. Ten million flys can't be wrong."
4.3 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF
The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition.
Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium,
is
the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or
questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the
assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.
Short form: Don't attempt to prove a negatives. Unless you're an idiot.
4.4 ACCENTUS
Description: A Fallacy of Ambiguity, where the ambiguity arises from the
emphasis (accent) placed on a word or phrase.
4.5 AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT
Description: An argument from the truth of a hypothetical statement, and
the
truth of the consequent to the truth of the antecedent. In the syllogism
below,
P is the antecedent and Q is the consequent:
P implies Q
Q is true <-- Affirming the consequent
______________
Therefore: P is true
Example: The Bible implies god, therefore, god is true.
4.6 AMBIGUITY
Description: An argument in the course of which at least one term is used
in
different senses. Also known as equivocation. There are several types of
"fallacies of ambiguity," including REIFICATION, EQUIVOCATION, AMPHIBOLY
[4.7],
COMPOSITION, DIVISION, and ACCENTUS [4.4].
4.7 AMPHIBOLY
Description: A type of Fallacy of Ambiguity where the ambiguity involved
is of
an "amphibolous" (equivocal, uncertain) nature. Amphiboly is a syntactic
error. The fallacy is caused by faulty sentence structure, and can result
in a
meaning not intended by the author. "The department store now has pants
for men
with 32 waists." (How many waists do you have? I have only one!)
4.8 ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM
Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply
because it is old; that is, because "that's the way it's always been."
Example: The Bible is 2000 years old! It must be true!
4.9 ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM
Description: An argument that resorts to the threat of force to cause the
acceptance of the conclusion. Ad baculum arguments also include threats
of fear
to cause acceptance.
Example: You'll go to hell if you don't follow my loving god.
4.10 ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM
Description: Fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness;
that those with more money are more likely to be right.
4.11 ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM (AKA FLAME)
Description: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what is
asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's argument. Another
way of putting it: Fallacy where you attack someone's character instead
of
dealing with salient issues. There are two basic types of ad hominem arguments:
(1) abusive, and (2) circumstantial.
4.12 ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM
Description: A fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she
is
sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier. This fallacy is the
opposite of the informal fallacy "argumentum ad crumenam."
4.13 ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM
Description: An argument that appeals to pity for the sake of getting a
conclusion accepted.
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
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|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ah
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:16:08
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4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM
Description: The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be
true
the more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs
constant repitition in asserting a truth.
Short form: an argument that is repeated so many times that you suffer nausea.
4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is more correct simply
because it is new or newer than something else. Or that something is better
because it is newer. This type of fallacy is the opposite of the "argumentum
ad antiquitam" fallacy.
4.16 ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM
Description: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the multitude (i.e.,
the "populace"). Another way of putting it: Speaker deals with passions
of
audience rather than with salient issues. This fallacy is also known as
"Appeal
to Tradition" Ad populum arguments often occur in (1) propaganda, (2)
demagoguery, and (3) advertising.
4.17 ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM
Description: An argument in which an authority is appealed to on matters
outside his/her field of authority. "Ad verecundiam" also refers to a
fallacy
of simply resorting to appeals to authority.
4.18 BEGGING THE QUESTION (CIRCULAR REASONING)
Description: An argument that assumes as part of its premises the very
conclusion that is supposed to be true. Another way of saying this is:
Fallacy of assuming at the onset of an argument the very point you are trying
to prove. The fallacy is also sometimes referred to as "Circulus in Probando."
This Fallacy is also known by the Latin "PETITIO PRINCIPII".
Example:
The Bible is true because god said it was. I know god is real becase the
Bible
said so.
4.19 BIFURCATION
Description: Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation
is
the presentation of a situation or condition with only two alternatives,
whereas in fact other alternatives exist or can exist.
4.20 COMPOSITION
Description: An argument in which one assumes that a whole has a property
solely because its various parts have that property. Composition is a type
of
Fallacy of Ambiguity.
4.21 CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL
Description: If P then Q, therefore, if Q then P.
Example:
Hitler used evolution, therefore, everyone who follows evolution supports
Hitler.
4.22 CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC
Description: A fallacy of correlation that links events because they occur
simultaneously; one asserts that because two events occur together they
are
causally related, and leaves no room for other factors that may be the cause(s)
of the events. This fallacy is similar to the "post hoc" fallacy.
4.23 DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT
Description: An argument in which one infers the falsity of the consequent
from
the truth of a hypothetical proposition, and the falsity of its antecedent.
P implies Q
Not-P
____________
Therefore: Not-Q
4.24 DIVISION
Description: An argument in which one assumes that various parts have a
property solely because the whole has that same property. Division is a
type
of Fallacy of Ambiguity.
4.25 EQUIVOCATION
Description: An argument in which an equivocal expression is used in one
sense
in one premise and in a different sense in another premise, or in the
conclusion. Equivocal means (1) of uncertain significance; not determined,
and
(2) having different meanings equally possible. Equivocation is a type
of
Fallacy of Ambiguity. The opposite of equivocation is "unovocation," in
which a
word always carries the same meaning through a given context.
4.26 FALLACY OF INTERROGATION
Description: The question asked has a presuppostion which the answerer may
wish
to deny, but which he/she would be accepting if he/she gave anything that
would count as an answer. Any answer to the question "Why does such-and-such
happen?" presupposes that such-and-such does indeed happen.
4.28 FALSE ANALOGY
Description: An analogy is a partial similarity between the like features
of
two things or events on which a comparison can be made. A false analogy
involves comparing two things that are NOT similar. Note that the two things
may be similar in superficial ways, but not with respect to what is being
argued.
4.29 SECUNDUM QUID (HASTY GENERALIZATION)
Description: An argument in which a proposition is used as a premise without
attention given to some obvious condition that would affect the proposition's
application. This fallacy is also known as the "hasty generalization."
It is
a fallacy that takes evidence from several, possibly unrepresentative, cases
to
a general rule; generalizing from few to many. Note the relation to
statistics: Much of statistics concerns whether or not a sample is
representative of a larger population. The larger the sample size, the better
the representativeness. Note also that the opposite of a hasty generalization
is a sweeping generalization.
4.30 IGNORATIO ELENCHI
Description: An argument that is supposed to prove one proposition but succeeds
only in proving a different one. Ignoratio elenchi stands for "pure and
simple
irrelevance."
4.31 ILLICIT PROCESS
Description: A syllogistic argument in which a term is distributed in the
conclusion, but not in the premises. One of the rules for a valid categorical
syllogism is that if either term is distributed in the conclusion, then
it must
be distributed in the premises. There are two types of Illicit Process:
Illicit Process of the Major Term and Illicit Process of the Minor Term.
4.32 PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM (MANY QUESTIONS)
Description: A demand for a simple answer to a complex question.
Example:
US schools are going down the drain because the school day is no longer
started
with a prayer.
4.33 NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA
Description: An argument to reject a proposition because of the falsity
of some
other proposition that seems to be a consequence of the first, but really
is
not.
4.34 NON-SEQUITUR
Description: An argument in which the conclusion is not a necessary consequence
of the premises. Another way of putting this is: A conclusion drawn from
premises that provide no logical connection to it.
4.35 PETITIO PRINCIPII
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|From: FSNS Goliath BBS
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|Sub: holysmoke.faq.ai
|Date: 10 Mar 96 06:18:08
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Description: Same as "Begging the Question" The argument assumes its
conclusion is true but DOES NOT SHOW it to be true. Petitio principii has
two
forms:
1. P is true, because P is true.
2. P is true, because A is true. And A is true because B is true. And
B is
true because P is true.
Similar to circular reasoning.
4.36 POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC
Description: An argument from a premise of the form "A preceded B" to a
conclusion of the form "A caused B." Simply because one event precedes
another
event in time does not mean that the first event is the cause of the second
event. This argument resembles a fallacy known as a Hasty Generalization.
4.37 QUATERNIO TERMINORUM
Description: An argument of the syllogistic form in which there occur four
or
more terms. In a standard categorical syllogism there are only three terms:
a
subject, a predicate, and a middle term.
4.38 RED HERRING
Description: A fallacy when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue
being discussed, such that everyone's attention is diverted away from the
points being made, and toward a different conclusion. It is not logically
valid to divert a chain of reasoning with extraneous points.
4.39 REIFICATION
Description: To reify something is to convert an abstract concept into a
concrete thing. Reification is a Fallacy of Ambiguity. Reification is also
sometimes known as a fallacy of "hypostatization".
4.40 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF (AKA Fundi shuffle)
Description: The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion
or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of "argumentum
ad
ignorantium," is a fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person
who
denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy
is the
assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.
4.41 SPECIAL PLEADING (DOUBLE STANDARD)
Description: Special pleading is a logical fallacy wherein a double standard
is
employed by the person making the assertion. Special pleading typically
happens when one insists upon less strict treatment for the argument he/she
is
making than he or she would make when evaluating someone else's arguments.
4.42 STRAW MAN
Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's position for
the
purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down that misrepresented
position, and then to conclude that the original position has been demolished.
It is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that
one has
made.
Example: Evolution says humans evolved from monkeys.
4.43 SWEEPING GENERALIZATION
Description: Also known by the Latin term "DICTO SIMPLICITER", a Sweeping
Generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation
in which the features of that particular situation render the rule
inapplicable. A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty
generalization.
4.44 TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT (TU QUOQUE)
Description: Two wrongs never add up to a right; you cannot right a wrong
by
applying yet another wrong. Such a fallacy is a misplaced appeal to
consistency. It is a fallacy because it makes no attempt to deal with the
subject under discussion.
4.45 UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE
Description: A syllogistic argument in which the middle term of a categorical
syllogism is not distributed in at least one of the premises.
4.46 ARGUMENTUM AD BOZM NON-CHRISTI
Description: This is the falacy that a Christian cannot commit any crime
or
ethicly irresponsible act. See "not true christian." [3.13]
4.47 HECTOR'S LAW
Description: A fundi, given enough time, will debunk itself without outside
intervention. However, the fundi is often too stupid to know that it has
debunked itself. [Hector Plasmic never put this in words, so I did.]
Í5: Biblical Contradiction ListÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ
[From Shelby Sherman, Kelsey Bjarnason, Marilyn Burge, Larry Sites and
Simon Ewins]
God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark
- Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Terah's lifespan.
According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was
born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore
he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born)
plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran -
as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as
Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran.
So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32
states he lived 205 years.
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in -
Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land
- Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27,
Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that
was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the
sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9
God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies),
Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42
The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah
(where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Solomon's reign.
Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when t