God Damned Fundies!
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Staal stinks a little 2/
|Date: 03 Apr 97 02:52:30
EID:3dfc 22831680
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3342aaee
>>> Continued from previous message
[...]
The mother and Wade "moved in together" in September 1992.
From that time, with the exception of a two-week period, the
mother and Wade have lived in "a lesbian relationship."
According to the mother, the relationship involves hugging and
kissing, patting "on the bottom," sleeping in the same bed,
"fondling," and "oral sex." The mother testified that she loves
Wade and that they "have a lifetime commitment."
At the time of the juvenile court hearing, the mother, the
child, and Wade were living in a two-bedroom apartment with
"Evelyn," another lesbian. "At one time," the child's bed was in
the room where the mother and Wade slept, having "sex in the same
bed." At one point in her testimony, however, when asked "how
many times did you do it when the child was sleeping in the same
bedroom," the mother responded, "None."
[...]
___--------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Satanic: Anything a fundie Christian doesn't like
___ Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rod "...I leave you to ponder your errors, Jimson, and how to
stop making such wild, unproven claims of yours" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * I ain't broke, but I'm badly bent
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: 1 The List
|Date: 03 Apr 97 02:56:32
EID:bcdb 22831700
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3342abe0
* On 29-03-97 at 18:18, ED MILLS wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "1 The List" in echo Holysmoke:
EM> EM> I'm seeing more and more of these little reminders that geezerhood
EM> EM> is now on the visible horizon for us baby-boomers. Sometimes twice
a
EM> EM> fucking day, lately. :-O
EM> RS> But edweird, isn't it comforting that the freethought and
EM> RS> atheistic ideals and philosophies is generational and doesn't
EM> RS> require passage between generations by *indoctrination*.
EM> I just hope the next generation and the one after that aren't lost
EM> in a war of attrition. Your youthful articulateness and perception
EM> isn't the norm - at least in this neck of the woods - I fear.
Be afraid for the generation now in the schools. The religious
right are targetting schools with many methods -- taking over
school boards, encouraging student activism and conversion
attempts to convert to Christianity (legal), encouraging students
to become active in bashing non-Christian students (illegal) --
etc, etc.
This is the real problem. About 1/4 of all reported gay bashings
now occur on high school and university campuses, the majority of
bashers are now male and average an age of 22.
Most gay bashers are known to the victims -- college or school
attendees that they know.
EM> RS> Yes! Atheism and free thinking comes from within! It's the
EM> RS> natural thing for humans! :) :)
EM> I wonder what single aberration started all this shit. A caveman
EM> with advanced syphilis, maybe?
I wonder if he got the clap from that slut Mary, who got it from
some guy in the middle of the night who said he was the Holy
Spirit, but it was so dark she couldn't tell the difference
between mortal penis, and supernatural penis...
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Land rights for gay whales!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 03 Apr 97 02:57:34
EID:2424 22831720
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3342ac1e
* On 29-03-97 at 18:23, ED MILLS wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Fundy Frolics 1/3" in echo Holysmoke:
EM> RS> Oh yes! I love performing abortions too. If you partially birth
EM> RS> them, the foetuses scream as you pierce the backs of their neck.
EM> RS> I even suck out the brains by siphoning it out with my mouth.
EM> RS> It allows one to blow it back in and hence scramble the brains
EM> RS> before finally removing them!
EM> Apparently I'm going to have to work a little harder to keep
EM> the title of "most disgusting motherfucker on the echo." :-)
Yes! :) :)
Rod "...the kid gloves are off with Jimson. He's about to feel
the nasty lashings I can give with my fingers only! :)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Train stations are where trains stop, so workstations...
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: The IRCops are comin
|Date: 03 Apr 97 02:58:36
EID:b3e7 22831740
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3342ac5c
* On 29-03-97 at 22:28, ED MILLS wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "The IRCops are comin" in echo Holysmoke:
EM> What was your URL again..?
The FUCK THE SKULL OF JESUS pics will be uploaded sometime soon
and put online at http://www.ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au/~rod/ftsoj.html
Rod "...and remember, fuck skull early, fuck skull often!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Famous graffitti: Schroedinger may have been here
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Apr 97 03:01:38
EID:f07c 22831820
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3342ad12
* On 29-03-97 at 00:19, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> kw> part of it.
KY> RS> RichS> Why shouldn't gays want to be treated like
KY> RS> RichS> everyone else?
KY> RodS> Because, Richard, Ken wants to give heterosexuals
KY> RodS> special rights -- the special rights to beat gays,
KY> RodS> kill gays, discriminate against gays.
KY> I do? Please, show me where I said that gays should be beaten?
You said that local communities should be allowed to pass
majoritarian based laws. This would, presumably, include
amendments to assault laws to allow assaults against gays, no?
KY> No one should commit violence against another just because
KY> they do not approve of the other person's beliefs.
I'm sorry, but you subscribed to the system of government in
where minorities could be clearly abused. Gay bashing could be
legalised. Heck, if you want, we could legalise the murdering of
gays, if it makes you happy -- after all, you believe the
majority should be given the right to change any non-Federal law
they like!!!
Do you see how silly you were to subscribe to that moronic
notion?
KY> I am not for discrimination, I am for equality. Ever hear of it?
Not from your lips. You preach discrimination. You clearly
claimed that the majority should have the right to pass and amend
any law it deems fit to do so -- this would naturally include any
law which harms the person or life of a minority too, right?
Rod "...didn't you learn from Hitler's regime?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Easter is cancelled this year. They've found the body.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 18:04:00
EID:e88e 22849080
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344d210
* On 01-04-97 at 23:14, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Around the World in.. 2/" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> JS> You can't fire someone for being gay.
JS> JS> KS> You are a fucking liar.
JS> JS> JS> What country do you live in? There _are_ laws against
JS> JS> JS> discrimination, you know.
JS> JS> KS> You are a moron.
JS> JS> And you? How would you describe yourself?
JS> RS> You fail to understand that Karl called you a moron because you
JS> RS> failed to understand that in 41 states in the United States, it
JS> RS> is QUITE legal to fire someone due to their sexual orientation,
JS> RS> and the person has no right nor claim of job discrimination.
JS> and would you list some evidence/examples of where and when it actually
JS> happens?
Oh, sure!
Shahar v Bowers
Englund v Dallas
That should be a start. Want more? How about the Cracker Barrel
chain of restaurants and their official "sack gays" policy? The
Louisville, KY, KFC managerial firing?
Rod "...oh, yes, I can cite more.
* OLX 2.1 TD * When talking nonsense try not to be serious
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Debunked Again!
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:41:02
EID:227f 22855520
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bbbe
* On 31-03-97 at 13:30, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Debunked Again!" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> And since some have switched to being heterosexual, it has
KY> KY> indeed been "repaired."
KY> RS> Evidence?
KY> Find a former gay, and you will have your evidence. There
KY> are a lot of them out there.
So far, the religious right seems to only be able to parade
around Michael Johnston. Surely if there were so many, they
could at least find a number of them to parade around.
Of course, we all know that the ex-gays eventually return to
their innate homosexuality -- like the founders of Exodus
Ministries, eh?
KY> KY> You made yourself who you are,
KY> RS> Evidence?
KY> You deny this?
No, I asked you for the evidence of your claims. I made no claim
whatsoever to the validity of the statement.
KY> RS> ...it seems on further questioning on these individuals, they
KY> RS> do express that their sexual orientation has always been innate
KY> RS> (as they confuse the initial question to be "sexual activity"
KY> RS> not "orientation").
KY> RS> I do wish you'd read what I write. On *closer clinical
KY> RS> examination and questioning they say they CHOOSE SEXUAL ACTIVITY
KY> RS> and NOT their ORIENTATION*.
KY> I feel the same way. I get tired of having to explain that what
KY> people say I said, wasn't what I said.
You said gays choose. When proven wrong you said that some gays may
choose consciously, the rest subconsciously. Then when proved
wrong you claimed that they mostly chose, but they didn't even
know it. Then when you were proved wrong, you claimed that it
was because they were insecure. Then when THAT was proven wrong,
you trotted out the claim that gays are "confused".
The only confused person around here, Ken, is you -- not gays.
We're quite happy, open, accepting, and comfortable about our
sexual orientation. The only reason why you percieve that gays
would be confused is because *you* being gay, although straight
yourself, would be confusing to *you*.
KY> As far as what you just wrote, their sexual orientation has
KY> always been inate, that they know of. As I have said, one
KY> does not always realize why they do things or why they make
KY> the choices they do.
If it were a choice, it would be mutable by treatment. It has
never been the case. You are wrong.
Sexual orientation is innate and immutable. You are the one in
error and contradiction to the factual nature of sexual
orientation.
KY> Whenever I question gays on sexual preference, I usually
KY> can eventually get to a reason for them being gay.
Really? Maybe you should start questioning them about sexual
orientation, not preference.
KY> KY> Perhaps it was due to some trauma
KY> RS> Yet *ANOTHER* theory everyone. Now gays are gay because of traumas.
KY> RS> THEORY 1: Gays actively choose.
KY> RS> THEORY 2: Gays consciously choose.
KY> RS> THEORY 3: Gays subconsciously choose.
KY> RS> THEORY 4: Trauma causes gays to choose.
KY> RS> Evidence, Ken?
KY> Try all of the above is correct including what I say about many
KY> gays being that way because of insecurities. Some conasciously
KY> choose, some subconsciously choose. And almost all gays appear
KY> to have turned to it because of trauma, insecurities, or some
KY> event that triggered this in their life.
This is not evidence, this is a restatement of your claims.
Do you have ANY evidence for any of the above crap? If so, cite
your references. If not, I suggest you leave the echo, and
apologise on the way out for the horrendous defamation and
personal hurt that you cause by stating such bold lies in front
of at least two gay people who *KNOW* different to you.
Of course, being a fucking gutless cunt, I expect you won't do
it, asswipe.
KY> RS> Why, groups like Exodus International, Ken. Why aren't you out
KY> RS> condemning them for killing young gay youths?
KY> I would, if I knew of this happening.
I provided quotes from the leader of one of the ministries that
claims to "cure" gays, urging a participant to kill himself
rather than leave their cult.
But typically, you fucking-well ignored it. Like all the
evidence that disproves your pile-of-shit lies, Ken. You claim
you don't know of this happening, then quote the actual quotation!
KY> RS> How about these words from one of these murderous cults of your
God?
KY> RS> "I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave
KY> RS> Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In
KY> RS> a physical death you could still have a spiritual
KY> RS> resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are
KY> RS> yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is
KY> RS> no recovery"
KY> RS> -- The Final Indoctrination from John Smid, Director,
KY> RS> Love In Action (LIA), San Rafael's "ex-gay" clan.
KY> I actually feel sorry for anyone that would say such a thing.
No you fucking do not. You would like to see as many gay people
gotten rid of so that your belief system can never be questioned
by people who would accuse you of the hostile atrocities you'd
commit. Of course, you would show no compassion to the victims
of such heinous Christian liars, because you yourself are
peddling the same sorts of lies.
No more fucking respect from me, you cretinous, lying, deceptive,
hateful, moronic, idiotic Christian. I was willing to offer you
the chance to provide your evidence, so we could gently correct
your erred beliefs on this issue, but since you refuse to show
any respect for me, my partner, or anyone else with divergent
views, you will get no more respect from me.
Bad fucking day to you, asshole.
Rod "...until you recant your lies, you can expect your stay here
on this echo to be made as unpleasant as possible." Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Debunked Again!
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:41:04
EID:5079 22855520
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bbc0
* On 31-03-97 at 13:30, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Debunked Again!" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> And since some have switched to being heterosexual, it has
KY> KY> indeed been "repaired."
KY> RS> Evidence?
KY> Find a former gay, and you will have your evidence. There
KY> are a lot of them out there.
So far, the religious right seems to only be able to parade
around Michael Johnston. Surely if there were so many, they
could at least find a number of them to parade around.
Of course, we all know that the ex-gays eventually return to
their innate homosexuality -- like the founders of Exodus
Ministries, eh?
KY> KY> You made yourself who you are,
KY> RS> Evidence?
KY> You deny this?
No, I asked you for the evidence of your claims. I made no claim
whatsoever to the validity of the statement.
KY> RS> ...it seems on further questioning on these individuals, they
KY> RS> do express that their sexual orientation has always been innate
KY> RS> (as they confuse the initial question to be "sexual activity"
KY> RS> not "orientation").
KY> RS> I do wish you'd read what I write. On *closer clinical
KY> RS> examination and questioning they say they CHOOSE SEXUAL ACTIVITY
KY> RS> and NOT their ORIENTATION*.
KY> I feel the same way. I get tired of having to explain that what
KY> people say I said, wasn't what I said.
You said gays choose. When proven wrong you said that some gays may
choose consciously, the rest subconsciously. Then when proved
wrong you claimed that they mostly chose, but they didn't even
know it. Then when you were proved wrong, you claimed that it
was because they were insecure. Then when THAT was proven wrong,
you trotted out the claim that gays are "confused".
The only confused person around here, Ken, is you -- not gays.
We're quite happy, open, accepting, and comfortable about our
sexual orientation. The only reason why you percieve that gays
would be confused is because *you* being gay, although straight
yourself, would be confusing to *you*.
KY> As far as what you just wrote, their sexual orientation has
KY> always been inate, that they know of. As I have said, one
KY> does not always realize why they do things or why they make
KY> the choices they do.
If it were a choice, it would be mutable by treatment. It has
never been the case. You are wrong.
Sexual orientation is innate and immutable. You are the one in
error and contradiction to the factual nature of sexual
orientation.
KY> Whenever I question gays on sexual preference, I usually
KY> can eventually get to a reason for them being gay.
Really? Maybe you should start questioning them about sexual
orientation, not preference.
KY> KY> Perhaps it was due to some trauma
KY> RS> Yet *ANOTHER* theory everyone. Now gays are gay because of traumas.
KY> RS> THEORY 1: Gays actively choose.
KY> RS> THEORY 2: Gays consciously choose.
KY> RS> THEORY 3: Gays subconsciously choose.
KY> RS> THEORY 4: Trauma causes gays to choose.
KY> RS> Evidence, Ken?
KY> Try all of the above is correct including what I say about many
KY> gays being that way because of insecurities. Some conasciously
KY> choose, some subconsciously choose. And almost all gays appear
KY> to have turned to it because of trauma, insecurities, or some
KY> event that triggered this in their life.
This is not evidence, this is a restatement of your claims.
Do you have ANY evidence for any of the above crap? If so, cite
your references. If not, I suggest you leave the echo, and
apologise on the way out for the horrendous defamation and
personal hurt that you cause by stating such bold lies in front
of at least two gay people who *KNOW* different to you.
Of course, being a fucking gutless cunt, I expect you won't do
it, asswipe.
KY> RS> Why, groups like Exodus International, Ken. Why aren't you out
KY> RS> condemning them for killing young gay youths?
KY> I would, if I knew of this happening.
I provided quotes from the leader of one of the ministries that
claims to "cure" gays, urging a participant to kill himself
rather than leave their cult.
But typically, you fucking-well ignored it. Like all the
evidence that disproves your pile-of-shit lies, Ken. You claim
you don't know of this happening, then quote the actual quotation!
KY> RS> How about these words from one of these murderous cults of your
God?
KY> RS> "I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave
KY> RS> Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In
KY> RS> a physical death you could still have a spiritual
KY> RS> resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are
KY> RS> yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is
KY> RS> no recovery"
KY> RS> -- The Final Indoctrination from John Smid, Director,
KY> RS> Love In Action (LIA), San Rafael's "ex-gay" clan.
KY> I actually feel sorry for anyone that would say such a thing.
No you fucking do not. You would like to see as many gay people
gotten rid of so that your belief system can never be questioned
by people who would accuse you of the hostile atrocities you'd
commit. Of course, you would show no compassion to the victims
of such heinous Christian liars, because you yourself are
peddling the same sorts of lies.
No more fucking respect from me, you cretinous, lying, deceptive,
hateful, moronic, idiotic Christian. I was willing to offer you
the chance to provide your evidence, so we could gently correct
your erred beliefs on this issue, but since you refuse to show
any respect for me, my partner, or anyone else with divergent
views, you will get no more respect from me.
Bad fucking day to you, asshole.
Rod "...until you recant your lies, you can expect your stay here
on this echo to be made as unpleasant as possible." Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Debunked Again! 2/
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:47:06
EID:f9c5 228555e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bd2a
* On 31-03-97 at 13:49, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Debunked Again!" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> Now, why do you suppose so many of the homeless and of the
KY> suicidal are gay or bisexual? Could it be out of
KY> desperation?
No, actually. The studies by the US government clearly show that
the majority of homeless people are homeless due to intolerant
parents like you throwing your children out on the streets rather
than accepting them for who they are.
Every time you spread your lies that it's a choice, someone,
somewhere, is going to believe it. And when they do, and it
happens in their life that their child is gay, they will throw
them out on the streets.
When children (yes, some are as young as 14 or 15) are thrown out
of home, destitute, onto the streets, many because of their
sexual orientation -- it's not their sexual orientation that is
the cause of depression but the hate of their family.
The fact that they are unloved, shunned, thrown out, told that
they are hated by any number of deities, and left to rot on the
street is what makes them kill themselves.
Then again, they don't need to be on the street to do that. It's
conservatively estimated that more than 2500 gay youths per year
commit suicide in the US because their lives are made miserable
inside the home, inside schools, etc.
That's 7 a day. Just under 50 a week.
Do you see the blood on your hands yet?
Aren't you accountable for your lies yet?
Since when is ostracising gay youths "family values"?
Oh, that's right. Gays don't belong in families. They belong in
hell. Who cares if they commit suicide, eh?
Rod "...that's the whole fucking Christian attitude, and secular
people with decency aren't going to stand back and let you
cretins say that lives of gays, atheists, people of other faiths,
etc, etc are *worthless* anymore and not worthy of compassion" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * The *Constitution* is the Contract with America!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Debunked Again! 2/
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:47:08
EID:a468 228555e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bd2c
* On 31-03-97 at 13:49, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Debunked Again!" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> Now, why do you suppose so many of the homeless and of the
KY> suicidal are gay or bisexual? Could it be out of
KY> desperation?
No, actually. The studies by the US government clearly show that
the majority of homeless people are homeless due to intolerant
parents like you throwing your children out on the streets rather
than accepting them for who they are.
Every time you spread your lies that it's a choice, someone,
somewhere, is going to believe it. And when they do, and it
happens in their life that their child is gay, they will throw
them out on the streets.
When children (yes, some are as young as 14 or 15) are thrown out
of home, destitute, onto the streets, many because of their
sexual orientation -- it's not their sexual orientation that is
the cause of depression but the hate of their family.
The fact that they are unloved, shunned, thrown out, told that
they are hated by any number of deities, and left to rot on the
street is what makes them kill themselves.
Then again, they don't need to be on the street to do that. It's
conservatively estimated that more than 2500 gay youths per year
commit suicide in the US because their lives are made miserable
inside the home, inside schools, etc.
That's 7 a day. Just under 50 a week.
Do you see the blood on your hands yet?
Aren't you accountable for your lies yet?
Since when is ostracising gay youths "family values"?
Oh, that's right. Gays don't belong in families. They belong in
hell. Who cares if they commit suicide, eh?
Rod "...that's the whole fucking Christian attitude, and secular
people with decency aren't going to stand back and let you
cretins say that lives of gays, atheists, people of other faiths,
etc, etc are *worthless* anymore and not worthy of compassion" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * The *Constitution* is the Contract with America!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Freedom of choice
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:46:10
EID:b86b 228555c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bcf2
* On 31-03-97 at 13:54, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Re: Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> No, because that is forcing it.
KY> RS> So you admit that "cured gays" are still not heterosexual? I
KY> RS> thought you admitted that they are *COMPLETELY* cured, including
KY> RS> their UNDERLYING ATTRACTIONS AND DESIRES -- something that
KY> RS> science says CANNOT BE CHANGED.
KY> No, I admit that a gay marrying a heterosexual is not going
KY> to cure him.
I never said that. And how fucking typical of your disingenuous
lies, Ken Young, you filthy and disgusting cunt. The quotes that
you left in even tell that, although you tried to remove your
statement about not allowing your children to marry a "cured"
gay. Note -- MARRYING a CURED GAY, not marrying to CURE a gay
person.
I clearly pointed out that you wouldn't allow one of your
children to marry a person who had been "cured" by one of those
sick Christian-based brain butchers. This statement reveals your
own disbelief in their efficacy.
Care to explain why you believe gay "curing" doesn't actually
happen, or why you fear your child marrying a "cured" gay?
KY> But gays can be cured.
Evidence for this claim? Or are you just going to repeat this
lie over and over and over again and expect the decent people
around here to believe it.
If you expect that, you have lost. They will no longer believe
your lies, as they have been exposed.
KY> A marriage just isn't going to do it, however.
I never said that. You made the claim you would not allow a son
or daughter, if you had the choice, of marrying a "cured gay".
KY> RS> So, when it comes to a "cured gay" marrying your daughter, you
KY> RS> still fear them still holding gay feelings. Even YOU know that
KY> RS> they aren't cured.
KY> They can be cured, but my daughter could not do it for
KY> them. It is up to them.
It's nice to know you don't even believe your own rhetoric on
"curing gays". I clearly asked you if you would allow your
daughter to marry a person that had already been "cured", not
required "curing".
You are a filthy liar, Ken Young. You are misquoting,
misrepresenting piece of slime, and I want everyone to know it.
Rod "...I expect an apology, now, for your reprehensible and
immoral lies" Swift.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Dyslexic agnostics don't know whether there is a dog!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Freedom of choice
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:46:12
EID:3de8 228555c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bcf4
* On 31-03-97 at 13:54, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Re: Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> No, because that is forcing it.
KY> RS> So you admit that "cured gays" are still not heterosexual? I
KY> RS> thought you admitted that they are *COMPLETELY* cured, including
KY> RS> their UNDERLYING ATTRACTIONS AND DESIRES -- something that
KY> RS> science says CANNOT BE CHANGED.
KY> No, I admit that a gay marrying a heterosexual is not going
KY> to cure him.
I never said that. And how fucking typical of your disingenuous
lies, Ken Young, you filthy and disgusting cunt. The quotes that
you left in even tell that, although you tried to remove your
statement about not allowing your children to marry a "cured"
gay. Note -- MARRYING a CURED GAY, not marrying to CURE a gay
person.
I clearly pointed out that you wouldn't allow one of your
children to marry a person who had been "cured" by one of those
sick Christian-based brain butchers. This statement reveals your
own disbelief in their efficacy.
Care to explain why you believe gay "curing" doesn't actually
happen, or why you fear your child marrying a "cured" gay?
KY> But gays can be cured.
Evidence for this claim? Or are you just going to repeat this
lie over and over and over again and expect the decent people
around here to believe it.
If you expect that, you have lost. They will no longer believe
your lies, as they have been exposed.
KY> A marriage just isn't going to do it, however.
I never said that. You made the claim you would not allow a son
or daughter, if you had the choice, of marrying a "cured gay".
KY> RS> So, when it comes to a "cured gay" marrying your daughter, you
KY> RS> still fear them still holding gay feelings. Even YOU know that
KY> RS> they aren't cured.
KY> They can be cured, but my daughter could not do it for
KY> them. It is up to them.
It's nice to know you don't even believe your own rhetoric on
"curing gays". I clearly asked you if you would allow your
daughter to marry a person that had already been "cured", not
required "curing".
You are a filthy liar, Ken Young. You are misquoting,
misrepresenting piece of slime, and I want everyone to know it.
Rod "...I expect an apology, now, for your reprehensible and
immoral lies" Swift.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Dyslexic agnostics don't know whether there is a dog!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:46:14
EID:74fa 228555c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bcf6
* On 31-03-97 at 17:35, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Ah, but I never said that gays are inferior.
KY> RS> No. You just believe they should have INFERIOR CITIZENSHIP and
KY> RS> RIGHTS -- as opposed to, say, EQUALITY.
KY> Nope.. I said that is for the people to decide.
KY> And BTW, that would include gays.
Sorry, Ken, but you clearly stated that you are all for removing
the rights of gays by plebiscite. Your claim that it is for "the
people to decide" does not contradict my claim as to the ends you
seek to achieve by giving the issue to "the people to decide".
KY> KY> Plus, what does the color of one's skin have to do
KY> KY> with their morality?
KY> RS> What does one's sexual orientation have to do with their
KY> RS> morality, either?
KY> Must you really ask?
Yes, you lying, cretinous shit. Now, answer the fucking question.
KY> Any sexual orientation except for heterosexuality is
KY> immoral. Why? One reason is because those homosexual or
KY> bisexual feelings lead to the actions that go along with
KY> them.
This is not a reason why sexual orientations may be immoral.
Please describe *how* they are immoral. Simply claiming that
gays will be gay is not a reason why.
If you claim it is because the acts are immoral, please explain
how the *ACTS* are immoral, with specific evidence.
KY> And if those feelings are never acted on, then that
KY> would mean the person is suppressing is feelings, which
KY> also wouldn't be good.
Ken admits gays being celibate, and ignoring their innate
feelings, are also immoral.
Nice one Ken. The above paragraph clearly admits that gays have
unchangeable, immute feelings. You are a lying fuckwit, exposed
for all to see.
KY> RS> You've yet to provide one scrap of evidence to show how gays
KY> RS> "hurt" families. I've shown heaps that show how families hurt gays.
KY> Well, I have to see that one either. But as far as gays hurting
KY> families, it is more gay rights activists, than gays themselves.
Really? How?
KY> One good example would be the promotion of homosexuality in the
KY> American public schools.
Promotion? Where? How? How is it a promotion? Is it a case of
homosexuals being accurately portrayed as humans, of full civil
rights, and equality?
There is much evidence to support the notion that homosexuality
is specifically denigrated in schools!
KY> RS> If it wasn't for the opposition within the gay community to
KY> RS> NAMBLA, you would have a lot of problems. NAMBLA is attempting
KY> RS> very hard to be seen as part of the mainstream. They attempt to
KY> RS> do this by attaching their pedophilia agenda to the equal rights
KY> RS> claims of gay people.
KY> NAMBLA part of the mainstream?!? You must be kidding.. :)
KY> They definitely do have problems, if they believe that be
KY> achieved any time soon.
KY> But homosexuals aren't considered part of the mainstream,
KY> are they? So, how can they be used to make NAMBLA appear
KY> as such?
No, you are a moronic idiot. Nice removal of quote from context.
NAMBLA has been trying to attach to the mainstream gay civil
rights movement, you moron.
KY> But yes, I will agree that NAMBLA does use the gays quite a
KY> bit. Most wouldn't have anything to do with NAMBLA's
KY> agenda.
No, dear Ken. VIRTUALLY ALL. Not "most".
KY> But that isn't to say that homosexuality couldn't
KY> be used to get what they want.
Actually, we can say that they cannot use gay civil rights as a
way to get what they want. The evidence was provided to you.
KY> RS> NAMBLA has consistently been banned by both organisers and court
KY> RS> order from marching in gay and lesbian demonstrations.
KY> If this is true, that is great, and does help me have a
KY> little respect for the gay rights activists.
Maybe if you met some gay people, you might understand them more.
Too bad that in this lifetime, you never will.
I feel so sad for you, Ken, because I've seen the product of your
agenda of hate. If you ever opened your ears to the testimony I
could present, you would scream with the amount of painful
memories I could provide to prove to you that your agenda is not
Christlike -- and in fact -- Christ would be ashamed of your
clear intolerance.
Did you want to hear some of my testimony? My testament to your
faith? I've seen more than you will ever see on the issue you
claim to be an expert about. For every "cured" gay you have, I
have 20 more suicides from the lies that you are perpetuating.
For every "we don't support the bashing of gays", I have
countless cases of bashings and killings.
Have you ever been present at a gay bashing? I have.
Have you ever seen someone beaten to near death? I have.
Have you ever seen the young thugs screaming out how their God
sanctifies their actions? I have.
How dare you claim your agenda is innocent. I've seen the
consequences. Maybe you should see the consequences too.
Rod "... Oh that's right, that would require you to close your
Bible and open your mind. That would require you to remove the
hands from your eyes and see the truth. We can't have that now,
can we?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Clean mind, clean body. Take your pick.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:46:16
EID:f179 228555c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bcf8
* On 31-03-97 at 17:35, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Ah, but I never said that gays are inferior.
KY> RS> No. You just believe they should have INFERIOR CITIZENSHIP and
KY> RS> RIGHTS -- as opposed to, say, EQUALITY.
KY> Nope.. I said that is for the people to decide.
KY> And BTW, that would include gays.
Sorry, Ken, but you clearly stated that you are all for removing
the rights of gays by plebiscite. Your claim that it is for "the
people to decide" does not contradict my claim as to the ends you
seek to achieve by giving the issue to "the people to decide".
KY> KY> Plus, what does the color of one's skin have to do
KY> KY> with their morality?
KY> RS> What does one's sexual orientation have to do with their
KY> RS> morality, either?
KY> Must you really ask?
Yes, you lying, cretinous shit. Now, answer the fucking question.
KY> Any sexual orientation except for heterosexuality is
KY> immoral. Why? One reason is because those homosexual or
KY> bisexual feelings lead to the actions that go along with
KY> them.
This is not a reason why sexual orientations may be immoral.
Please describe *how* they are immoral. Simply claiming that
gays will be gay is not a reason why.
If you claim it is because the acts are immoral, please explain
how the *ACTS* are immoral, with specific evidence.
KY> And if those feelings are never acted on, then that
KY> would mean the person is suppressing is feelings, which
KY> also wouldn't be good.
Ken admits gays being celibate, and ignoring their innate
feelings, are also immoral.
Nice one Ken. The above paragraph clearly admits that gays have
unchangeable, immute feelings. You are a lying fuckwit, exposed
for all to see.
KY> RS> You've yet to provide one scrap of evidence to show how gays
KY> RS> "hurt" families. I've shown heaps that show how families hurt gays.
KY> Well, I have to see that one either. But as far as gays hurting
KY> families, it is more gay rights activists, than gays themselves.
Really? How?
KY> One good example would be the promotion of homosexuality in the
KY> American public schools.
Promotion? Where? How? How is it a promotion? Is it a case of
homosexuals being accurately portrayed as humans, of full civil
rights, and equality?
There is much evidence to support the notion that homosexuality
is specifically denigrated in schools!
KY> RS> If it wasn't for the opposition within the gay community to
KY> RS> NAMBLA, you would have a lot of problems. NAMBLA is attempting
KY> RS> very hard to be seen as part of the mainstream. They attempt to
KY> RS> do this by attaching their pedophilia agenda to the equal rights
KY> RS> claims of gay people.
KY> NAMBLA part of the mainstream?!? You must be kidding.. :)
KY> They definitely do have problems, if they believe that be
KY> achieved any time soon.
KY> But homosexuals aren't considered part of the mainstream,
KY> are they? So, how can they be used to make NAMBLA appear
KY> as such?
No, you are a moronic idiot. Nice removal of quote from context.
NAMBLA has been trying to attach to the mainstream gay civil
rights movement, you moron.
KY> But yes, I will agree that NAMBLA does use the gays quite a
KY> bit. Most wouldn't have anything to do with NAMBLA's
KY> agenda.
No, dear Ken. VIRTUALLY ALL. Not "most".
KY> But that isn't to say that homosexuality couldn't
KY> be used to get what they want.
Actually, we can say that they cannot use gay civil rights as a
way to get what they want. The evidence was provided to you.
KY> RS> NAMBLA has consistently been banned by both organisers and court
KY> RS> order from marching in gay and lesbian demonstrations.
KY> If this is true, that is great, and does help me have a
KY> little respect for the gay rights activists.
Maybe if you met some gay people, you might understand them more.
Too bad that in this lifetime, you never will.
I feel so sad for you, Ken, because I've seen the product of your
agenda of hate. If you ever opened your ears to the testimony I
could present, you would scream with the amount of painful
memories I could provide to prove to you that your agenda is not
Christlike -- and in fact -- Christ would be ashamed of your
clear intolerance.
Did you want to hear some of my testimony? My testament to your
faith? I've seen more than you will ever see on the issue you
claim to be an expert about. For every "cured" gay you have, I
have 20 more suicides from the lies that you are perpetuating.
For every "we don't support the bashing of gays", I have
countless cases of bashings and killings.
Have you ever been present at a gay bashing? I have.
Have you ever seen someone beaten to near death? I have.
Have you ever seen the young thugs screaming out how their God
sanctifies their actions? I have.
How dare you claim your agenda is innocent. I've seen the
consequences. Maybe you should see the consequences too.
Rod "... Oh that's right, that would require you to close your
Bible and open your mind. That would require you to remove the
hands from your eyes and see the truth. We can't have that now,
can we?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Clean mind, clean body. Take your pick.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel boyco
|Date: 04 Apr 97 18:46:18
EID:4c4d 228495c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344dbfa
* On 31-03-97 at 17:49, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Re: Cracker Barrel boyco" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> Strange. There's nothing in the bible about homosexuality, only
KY> RS> same-sex genital sexual acts.
KY> Ah, but why would someone have those homosexual feelings
KY> and not ever act on them? SHould feelings be suppressed
KY> like that?
That's not my concern. That's your bible. You live by the
rules. I do not demand celibacy of gay people -- you do.
KY> RS> Rod "...why would they not be Christian?" Swift :)
KY> Because the feelings that go with both would contradict
KY> with each other too much.
This is not an answer. This is a claim. Please provide an
explained and evidenced answer, next time.
Rod "... are you ready to hear the truth about your lies, and the
gay bashings they cause, yet?" Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * If Jesus is Jewish, why does he have a Spanish name?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 04 Apr 97 18:47:20
EID:b86b 228495e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344dc38
* On 31-03-97 at 17:52, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> That changed a long time ago, and the left is getting more
KY> KY> and more control over America all the time.
KY> RS> Oh, and we're *SOOOO* scaaaaaaared! :)
KY> Why should you be? You're not even in America, are you?
And I bet you gloat at night about how you can punish the
thousands of gays who live worlds apart from their loved ones
because your bible states they cannot have the freedom to love
each other and live together, no?
Rod "...how do you sleep at night with your unconscionable human
rights abuses, Ken?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * If Jesus loves me, why does he never send flowers?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Freedom Of Choice
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:44:22
EID:b86b 22855580
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bc86
* On 31-03-97 at 17:55, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Re: Freedom Of Choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> So you are going to join gay people in the next demonstration in
KY> RS> your nearby states about there being sodomy laws, and how they
KY> RS> should be removed?
KY> I wouldn't, but mainly because there are a lot more
KY> important issues as far as I am concerned.
Like?
KY> I am in the process of getting to be an actual activist of sorts,
KY> but homosexuality would not be an issue, one way or another,
KY> that I plan on focusing on.
Why not? Are you too afraid that if you associated with gay
people who have been the subjects of the bashings, murders,
rhetoric and hate of the agenda to which you have subscribed and
repeat the lies of -- that you might get some conscience to go
with your guilt?
KY> BTW, don't think only gay people are into that. There are
KY> a lot of heterosexual people that fight strongly for "gay rights."
Yes. Why are you not one of them? Afraid that you might have a
run-in with reality?
KY> RS> Maybe you might meet some gay people??? Have a chance to ask if
KY> RS> they chose????
KY> RS> Rod "...oh, damn, I bet you'll say no now :(" Swift :)
KY> Hehe.. Now, how did you know? :)
KY> Well, I have asked gays about that, but whether they say
KY> they chose or not says nothing. What matters is their
KY> answer when asked about when they first realized they were
KY> gay.
No. What you mean to say is that no matter how they answer, you
will ignore their heartfelt personal testimony and edit it to
claim to other people, down the track, that they claimed to have
"chose to be gay".
Will you defame me, and Christopher, and make the same claims
about our life, our testimony, our humanity, too?
I guess so.
You are a deceitful liar, Ken. I want you to know that. I want
you to know that every time you ignore the lives and words of gay
people, and instead repeat the rhetoric your religion sold you,
you are single-handedly perpetuating the greatest human rights
abuses in history...
...solely because you cannot understand that people love and care
for each other in the same way as you do, just of different
genders.
Rod "...I pity you, because if you cannot understand love, what
hope do I have of helping you understand your hate?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Rutabaga: Lord of the vegies
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Freedom Of Choice
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:44:24
EID:3de8 22855580
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bc88
* On 31-03-97 at 17:55, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Re: Freedom Of Choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> So you are going to join gay people in the next demonstration in
KY> RS> your nearby states about there being sodomy laws, and how they
KY> RS> should be removed?
KY> I wouldn't, but mainly because there are a lot more
KY> important issues as far as I am concerned.
Like?
KY> I am in the process of getting to be an actual activist of sorts,
KY> but homosexuality would not be an issue, one way or another,
KY> that I plan on focusing on.
Why not? Are you too afraid that if you associated with gay
people who have been the subjects of the bashings, murders,
rhetoric and hate of the agenda to which you have subscribed and
repeat the lies of -- that you might get some conscience to go
with your guilt?
KY> BTW, don't think only gay people are into that. There are
KY> a lot of heterosexual people that fight strongly for "gay rights."
Yes. Why are you not one of them? Afraid that you might have a
run-in with reality?
KY> RS> Maybe you might meet some gay people??? Have a chance to ask if
KY> RS> they chose????
KY> RS> Rod "...oh, damn, I bet you'll say no now :(" Swift :)
KY> Hehe.. Now, how did you know? :)
KY> Well, I have asked gays about that, but whether they say
KY> they chose or not says nothing. What matters is their
KY> answer when asked about when they first realized they were
KY> gay.
No. What you mean to say is that no matter how they answer, you
will ignore their heartfelt personal testimony and edit it to
claim to other people, down the track, that they claimed to have
"chose to be gay".
Will you defame me, and Christopher, and make the same claims
about our life, our testimony, our humanity, too?
I guess so.
You are a deceitful liar, Ken. I want you to know that. I want
you to know that every time you ignore the lives and words of gay
people, and instead repeat the rhetoric your religion sold you,
you are single-handedly perpetuating the greatest human rights
abuses in history...
...solely because you cannot understand that people love and care
for each other in the same way as you do, just of different
genders.
Rod "...I pity you, because if you cannot understand love, what
hope do I have of helping you understand your hate?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Rutabaga: Lord of the vegies
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:45:26
EID:b86b 228555a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bcc6
* On 31-03-97 at 18:25, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> If they don't choose that way, then that tells me they are
KY> KY> trapped in that sexual preference.
KY> RS> Trapped? No. We were granted it by the grace of your God!
KY> RS> Praise your God for homosexuality, Ken! :) That's what you
KY> RS> fear!
KY> But you obviously do not believe in the Christian God.
Why did you ever make that assumption?
KY> So therefore, do you see yourself as being trapped in that
KY> sexual preference?
I never made such a claim. Do not be a disingenuous, deceitful
liar, Ken. You made the claim that gays were "trapped" in
homosexuality.
Pray tell, how do you plan to set them free? Oh, that's right.
You can't. That's because they can't be changed.
KY> I am not hateful of consenting adults. What I hate is what
KY> some give consent to do.
That's right. You support an agenda that kills gay youths by
suicide and gays by bashings. You support an agenda based on
lies. You repeat those lies, and hence provide the very ideology
of the basher who will believe that when he wields his baseball
bat, or pulls the trigger that he's doing it in the name of God.
What would your God say to this mass-genocide in his name, Ken?
Rod "...indeed, they say "God save me!", because nothing can save
you if you subscribe to an agenda of hate, Ken." Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Give Christians Prozac, not Government Office!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:45:28
EID:3de8 228555a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bcc8
* On 31-03-97 at 18:25, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo R Holysmoke:
KY> KY> If they don't choose that way, then that tells me they are
KY> KY> trapped in that sexual preference.
KY> RS> Trapped? No. We were granted it by the grace of your God!
KY> RS> Praise your God for homosexuality, Ken! :) That's what you
KY> RS> fear!
KY> But you obviously do not believe in the Christian God.
Why did you ever make that assumption?
KY> So therefore, do you see yourself as being trapped in that
KY> sexual preference?
I never made such a claim. Do not be a disingenuous, deceitful
liar, Ken. You made the claim that gays were "trapped" in
homosexuality.
Pray tell, how do you plan to set them free? Oh, that's right.
You can't. That's because they can't be changed.
KY> I am not hateful of consenting adults. What I hate is what
KY> some give consent to do.
That's right. You support an agenda that kills gay youths by
suicide and gays by bashings. You support an agenda based on
lies. You repeat those lies, and hence provide the very ideology
of the basher who will believe that when he wields his baseball
bat, or pulls the trigger that he's doing it in the name of God.
What would your God say to this mass-genocide in his name, Ken?
Rod "...indeed, they say "God save me!", because nothing can save
you if you subscribe to an agenda of hate, Ken." Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Give Christians Prozac, not Government Office!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:00:30
EID:5ed0 22849800
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344df4e
* On 31-03-97 at 18:30, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> No, rather, I have some decency, and it isn't exactly right
KY> KY> to talk about that, using names, on a net for everyone to see.
KY> RS> Ok, so be honest enough to explain why you have ignored my
KY> RS> testimony, and Christopher's testimony, as "us not knowing we
KY> RS> actually chose".
KY> Ah, but your testimony that I have seen as of this post,
KY> has not been complete. When did you first realize you
KY> were gay?
My testimony is complete. I never chose to be gay. I have
always felt attraction towards my own gender from the first
points of memory in my life, at about age 3.
Does this answer your question? I hope so. Christopher will
give you the same testimony.
The feelings have always been there, we may not have had a name
for them at first, but they were strong, definite, immutable, and
biologically-driven. We've always been attracted to our own gender.
KY> RS> Either be honest and admit you are dispensing with the testimony
KY> RS> of REAL gay people who KNOW they never made any active choice
KY> RS> whatsoever and ADMIT your bias -- or remain a proven liar.
KY> Most gays do think they they were born gay, but they are just wrong,
KY> is all.
So you claim to know gay people better than they do? On what
rational, scientific basis do you claim that your unevidenced,
unpersonal, unknowledgeable testimony of one man weighs up
against the testimony of thousands of people who have no reason
to lie for any hidden agenda?
KY> Now, give me the testimony of gays saying how they
KY> discovered their homosexuality, and I would accept that.
You are ignorant to the citations I have been quoting. Have you
read them? Most clinical studies don't just contain a question
about sexual orientation, but also the development thereof.
Why don't you read some of them?
Rod "... or would you rather me tell you about the fractured
skulls of the victims of the religious conservative's agenda
against gays?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Fundamentalist: (n) Ape-like creature with a Bible
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:17:32
EID:5ed0 22849a20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e34c
* On 31-03-97 at 18:35, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> Doesn't change the fact you are a LYING FUCK. You have
KY> RS> CONSISTENTLY lied about gay people, their lives, their loves,
KY> RS> their relationships, and their morality.
KY> Evidence on any of that?
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
Most gays do think they they were born gay, but they are
just wrong, is all.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> Maybe you might meet some gay people??? Have a chance to ask if
RS> they chose????
Well, I have asked gays about that, but whether they say
they chose or not says nothing. What matters is their answer
when asked about when they first realized they were gay.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
You admit your bias above. No matter what the people who you
make claims about say, virtually identical in all cases, you
still won't accept evidence. Further, your candid admissions
above that you won't accept any personal testimony, and in fact
you would be willing to misrepresent gay people proves that you
consistently lie about gay people, their lives, their loves,
their relationships, and their morality.
My claim stands. Further, it is now proven beyond a shadow of a
doubt that you are not willing to accept ANYTHING from ANY SOURCE
which contradicts your viewpoint.
KY> RS> I was prepared to offer you the chance to provide evidence, and
KY> RS> remain within the rules of debate on this issue, but it is clear
KY> RS> you fail to provide any evidence.
KY> RS> Since you will not, it means I can play hard and fast.
KY> In other words you cannot debate this logically and intelligently?
No, it's as I clearly stated. Provide evidence, or I start
making unevidenced claims about you.
"You were raped as a child by a heterosexual church official, and
you enjoyed every minute of it."
BTW, I'll quote your text to remind you of the rules you chose to
play by...
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
Most rape victims do think they they didn't ask for it, but they are
just wrong, is all.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
KY> Maybe you might meet some rape victims??? Have a chance to ask if
KY> they asked for it????
Well, I have asked rapees about that, but whether they say
they asked for it or not says nothing. What matters is their
answer when asked about when they first realized they were raped.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
See how silly your claims are when you aren't willing to listen
to the other side, Ken?
KY> We both know you wouldn't accept evidence on this.
No, you are incorrect. I am willing to accept any and all
evidence on this issue. I am also willing to verify it, present
counter-evidence to disprove evidence, and have a rational,
scientific debate on the issue based on evidence.
KY> Come on, it is what you are. You don't want to be
KY> proved wrong on it.
I don't care if you *attempt* to prove me wrong. The fact is
that you fail to present evidence because YOU HAVE NONE.
If you did, you'd PRESENT IT.
I presented MY REFERENCES AND CITATIONS.
This is proof positive that you are unwilling to prove what you
claim. Hence, we must assume that since the evidence presented
in the whole debate contradicts your view, you are a liar.
KY> Yeah, like if I did retract anything, your tone would ever
KY> change. Nice try, though.
Try it. You may be surprised. Of course, being a lying
Christian subscribing to a hate agenda, I expect you not to be
man enough to take such a challenge at tolerance.
Remember, you started it, with your intolerance. Maybe if you
are just willing to admit your mistakes, your lies, your
innuendo, your claims, and everything else you've presented in
your hateful anti-gay agenda, we'd probably forgive you for your
errors.
You started the fire. You flamed it with ignorance. You get
back the hate you spread out in the first place.
Next time, Ken, don't be an ignorant shithead by presenting your
spoon-fed anti-gay right-wing agenda that you were indoctrinated
with into an echo of free-thinking people who demand evidence.
KY> I never lie, I may be wrong on some things, but never lie.
You have lied consistently here. Present your evidence to
validate your claims, or be branded the liar that you are.
KY> Now, would you do the same if it was ever proven
KY> that you were the one that was wrong?
Yes, I would readily admit that I was wrong. However, I'm not
the one making wild, outlandish, unevidenced claims.
Rod "...maybe you should stop writing cheques your credibility
and evidence cannot cash." Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * When talking nonsense try not to be serious
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
SEEN-BY: 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25 3632/21 3651/9
SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:17:34
EID:037d 22849a20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e34e
* On 31-03-97 at 18:35, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> Doesn't change the fact you are a LYING FUCK. You have
KY> RS> CONSISTENTLY lied about gay people, their lives, their loves,
KY> RS> their relationships, and their morality.
KY> Evidence on any of that?
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
Most gays do think they they were born gay, but they are
just wrong, is all.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> Maybe you might meet some gay people??? Have a chance to ask if
RS> they chose????
Well, I have asked gays about that, but whether they say
they chose or not says nothing. What matters is their answer
when asked about when they first realized they were gay.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
You admit your bias above. No matter what the people who you
make claims about say, virtually identical in all cases, you
still won't accept evidence. Further, your candid admissions
above that you won't accept any personal testimony, and in fact
you would be willing to misrepresent gay people proves that you
consistently lie about gay people, their lives, their loves,
their relationships, and their morality.
My claim stands. Further, it is now proven beyond a shadow of a
doubt that you are not willing to accept ANYTHING from ANY SOURCE
which contradicts your viewpoint.
KY> RS> I was prepared to offer you the chance to provide evidence, and
KY> RS> remain within the rules of debate on this issue, but it is clear
KY> RS> you fail to provide any evidence.
KY> RS> Since you will not, it means I can play hard and fast.
KY> In other words you cannot debate this logically and intelligently?
No, it's as I clearly stated. Provide evidence, or I start
making unevidenced claims about you.
"You were raped as a child by a heterosexual church official, and
you enjoyed every minute of it."
BTW, I'll quote your text to remind you of the rules you chose to
play by...
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
Most rape victims do think they they didn't ask for it, but they are
just wrong, is all.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
KY> Maybe you might meet some rape victims??? Have a chance to ask if
KY> they asked for it????
Well, I have asked rapees about that, but whether they say
they asked for it or not says nothing. What matters is their
answer when asked about when they first realized they were raped.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
See how silly your claims are when you aren't willing to listen
to the other side, Ken?
KY> We both know you wouldn't accept evidence on this.
No, you are incorrect. I am willing to accept any and all
evidence on this issue. I am also willing to verify it, present
counter-evidence to disprove evidence, and have a rational,
scientific debate on the issue based on evidence.
KY> Come on, it is what you are. You don't want to be
KY> proved wrong on it.
I don't care if you *attempt* to prove me wrong. The fact is
that you fail to present evidence because YOU HAVE NONE.
If you did, you'd PRESENT IT.
I presented MY REFERENCES AND CITATIONS.
This is proof positive that you are unwilling to prove what you
claim. Hence, we must assume that since the evidence presented
in the whole debate contradicts your view, you are a liar.
KY> Yeah, like if I did retract anything, your tone would ever
KY> change. Nice try, though.
Try it. You may be surprised. Of course, being a lying
Christian subscribing to a hate agenda, I expect you not to be
man enough to take such a challenge at tolerance.
Remember, you started it, with your intolerance. Maybe if you
are just willing to admit your mistakes, your lies, your
innuendo, your claims, and everything else you've presented in
your hateful anti-gay agenda, we'd probably forgive you for your
errors.
You started the fire. You flamed it with ignorance. You get
back the hate you spread out in the first place.
Next time, Ken, don't be an ignorant shithead by presenting your
spoon-fed anti-gay right-wing agenda that you were indoctrinated
with into an echo of free-thinking people who demand evidence.
KY> I never lie, I may be wrong on some things, but never lie.
You have lied consistently here. Present your evidence to
validate your claims, or be branded the liar that you are.
KY> Now, would you do the same if it was ever proven
KY> that you were the one that was wrong?
Yes, I would readily admit that I was wrong. However, I'm not
the one making wild, outlandish, unevidenced claims.
Rod "...maybe you should stop writing cheques your credibility
and evidence cannot cash." Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * When talking nonsense try not to be serious
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: Freedom Of Choice
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:18:36
EID:c36d 22849a40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e38c
* On 30-03-97 at 23:24, DOUG SCHWANDT wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA,
on the topic of "FREEDOM OF CHOICE" in echo Holysmoke:
DS> JB>Rod Swift has posted the peer-reviewed journal articles on this subject
DS> JB>quite recently. (Since you have been blathering here) Go find them
and
DS> JB>read them.
DS> JB>Since sexual orientation is a choice, when did YOU choose which way
you
DS> JB>would go...and why?
DS> It's the RIGHT thing to do!
Well, we all know following our innate sexual orientation is the
right thing to do, but Judith was asking when you claimed to have
chose -- i.e. ignore sexual innate feelings and make a conscious
choice.
Rod "...please, do tell us, what date?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Diplomacy: Saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel boyco
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:20:38
EID:4c4d 22849a80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e406
* On 01-04-97 at 01:35, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: Cracker Barrel boycot" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> CH> More important. Ok, now you're including a value call. More important
KY> CH> to whom? Based on what criteria? In what value system?
KY> Not based on a value system, but based on survival.
I'm sorry, but the human race's viability and survival is in no
way threatened by the presence of other functions of sex that are
both naturally occuring and quite normal.
KY> As I just said, because of survival. Pleasure is a great
KY> thing, but first we must be around to enjoy it.
You have failed to provide any evidence as to why homosexual sex
between two people is a threat to the survival of the human race.
Rod "...care to provide any evidence of this claim?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * The best prophet of the future is the past
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:22:40
EID:c45c 22849ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e480
* On 01-04-97 at 23:22, JIM STAAL wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Oops, Caught Again" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> CH> Even if my husband,
JS> Show me the legal certificate.
I'm sorry, you'll have to remember that husband and wife a
religious terms. Spouse is the legal term, moron.
JS> CH> who is a journalist and used to subedit for a
JS> CH> living,
JS> Hahahahahahahahaha! No evidence of that here.
I'm sorry, my degree is online if you wanted to check.
JS> I think he lives off the state for a living...just like you!
So I don't do HTML coding, editing and print publications for a living??
Rod "...such a naughty boy you are, Jim!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Could crop circles be the work of a cereal killer?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:23:42
EID:b86b 22849ae0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e4be
* On 01-04-97 at 00:03, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> But look at it this way.. You have no desire to have sex
KY> with a woman. The mere idea repulses you, right? Well,
KY> pretty much how I personally feel about anal sex.
I note, however, that we are not claiming that you can be cured
of your "non-anal sex practices" and orientation.
Maybe you should learn tolerance, no?
Rod "...huh? Well? Are you going to?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus saves? Not on my salary he doesn't.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying example
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:25:44
EID:7d13 22849b20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e538
* On 01-04-97 at 01:25, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> Sort of like the old "can God make a rock He can't lift" scenario?
:)
KY> Sure.. If there was a purpose to it, God could do it. But
KY> anything God does do has a reason for it, so not likely
KY> that He will be doing that.
What is the reason that god made gays?
Please, be honest with your answer. I am basing my question on
the undeniable biological co-factors in homosexuality as
presented in the abstract in an earlier post about the prevalence
of homosexuality in siblings and your faith in God.
Rod "...now, your answer please?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: Death, are you for it or against it?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:47:46
EID:74fa 228555e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bd52
* On 01-04-97 at 01:42, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> CH> "But part of our rights, is the right to take away the rights
KY> CH> of others, if it does not go against the Constitution, and if
KY> CH> enough want it." Ken Young
KY> CH> I'm not even going to dignify that piece of crap with a reply.
KY> America is supposed to be for and by the people. That, how
KY> people want things to be, should be, even if some may not
KY> like it. America is all about freedom, but that includes
KY> the freedom to restrict others, provided it is what the
KY> public wants, and not the govt.
I'm sorry. The Declaration of Independence clearly states that
"all people are ... equal". Which part of the word *ALL* do you
not understand, Ken?
America is supposed to be for and by ALL the people, not a
MAJORITY. The mandate of constitutional government in the US
clearly states that the people CANNOT have what they want if it
harms a minority.
Where is the freedom for the minority in the oppression of it by
the majority? Is freedom for all, or only some?
America is not about freedom. America is about equality. That's
why you don't like the fact that gay people will keep winning
their rights, because they are not only deserved, but are
supposedly guaranteed under the constitution.
Rod "...maybe you should look at your constitution more. Then
maybe you should learn to live in your community more and
tolerate those who have rights not because they are granted by
the majority, but because the majority cannot deny them!" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus died for our sins, so let's not disappoint him
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:47:48
EID:f179 228555e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bd54
* On 01-04-97 at 01:42, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> CH> "But part of our rights, is the right to take away the rights
KY> CH> of others, if it does not go against the Constitution, and if
KY> CH> enough want it." Ken Young
KY> CH> I'm not even going to dignify that piece of crap with a reply.
KY> America is supposed to be for and by the people. That, how
KY> people want things to be, should be, even if some may not
KY> like it. America is all about freedom, but that includes
KY> the freedom to restrict others, provided it is what the
KY> public wants, and not the govt.
I'm sorry. The Declaration of Independence clearly states that
"all people are ... equal". Which part of the word *ALL* do you
not understand, Ken?
America is supposed to be for and by ALL the people, not a
MAJORITY. The mandate of constitutional government in the US
clearly states that the people CANNOT have what they want if it
harms a minority.
Where is the freedom for the minority in the oppression of it by
the majority? Is freedom for all, or only some?
America is not about freedom. America is about equality. That's
why you don't like the fact that gay people will keep winning
their rights, because they are not only deserved, but are
supposedly guaranteed under the constitution.
Rod "...maybe you should look at your constitution more. Then
maybe you should learn to live in your community more and
tolerate those who have rights not because they are granted by
the majority, but because the majority cannot deny them!" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus died for our sins, so let's not disappoint him
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying example
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:48:50
EID:7d13 22855600
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bd92
* On 31-03-97 at 03:36, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> > I hate to tell you this, but the Framers were deists, not Christians.
KY> First, do you really hate to tell people that?
No. It is fact. We can accept fact. The only person not
accepting fact in this echo are people like you.
KY> Some of the American founding fathers were Deists, but not the majority.
KY> Most were indeed born again Christians.
Evidence?
KY> THat amendment should never have been passed, as that is the state's
KY> responsibility. That is what the Constitution was all about,
KY> restricting the federal government, not the state ones.
No. The Constitution of a nation is a governance document. It can
restrict whatever and whomever it wants in a nation.
The amendment to the constitution was legally passed and willed
of the required number of legislatures. You forgot how the
US Constitution is amended, didn't you?
Remember? 3/4 of the states must ratify the amendment? You say
that the states should not be encumbered by the constitution.
They wanted it. They had a right to pass an amendment to apply
the whole good-governance of the US Constitution to all levels of
government.
KY> America was to be free from laws forcing one religion or the
KY> other, but that does not mean that Christianity wasn't to be
KY> the main religion.
For god's sake, Ken, read fucking AMENDMENT 1, it is CLEAR that
congress shall make no laws establishing a national religion.
KY> Church and State? The only thing you could ever find on that,
KY> would be a letter by Jefferson. Nothing else states they were
KY> for seperation of church and state.
Please contact the organisation known as the Institute for First
Amendment Studies. http://www.ifas.org/
They can correct your errors here better than I can.
Rod "...because you are in error. Since you have been advised of
this fact, you must either prove your claims, or be subjected to
the claim of deception." Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't get stuck in a closet. Wear yourself out.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying example
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:48:52
EID:0580 22855600
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bd94
* On 31-03-97 at 03:36, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> > I hate to tell you this, but the Framers were deists, not Christians.
KY> First, do you really hate to tell people that?
No. It is fact. We can accept fact. The only person not
accepting fact in this echo are people like you.
KY> Some of the American founding fathers were Deists, but not the majority.
KY> Most were indeed born again Christians.
Evidence?
KY> THat amendment should never have been passed, as that is the state's
KY> responsibility. That is what the Constitution was all about,
KY> restricting the federal government, not the state ones.
No. The Constitution of a nation is a governance document. It can
restrict whatever and whomever it wants in a nation.
The amendment to the constitution was legally passed and willed
of the required number of legislatures. You forgot how the
US Constitution is amended, didn't you?
Remember? 3/4 of the states must ratify the amendment? You say
that the states should not be encumbered by the constitution.
They wanted it. They had a right to pass an amendment to apply
the whole good-governance of the US Constitution to all levels of
government.
KY> America was to be free from laws forcing one religion or the
KY> other, but that does not mean that Christianity wasn't to be
KY> the main religion.
For god's sake, Ken, read fucking AMENDMENT 1, it is CLEAR that
congress shall make no laws establishing a national religion.
KY> Church and State? The only thing you could ever find on that,
KY> would be a letter by Jefferson. Nothing else states they were
KY> for seperation of church and state.
Please contact the organisation known as the Institute for First
Amendment Studies. http://www.ifas.org/
They can correct your errors here better than I can.
Rod "...because you are in error. Since you have been advised of
this fact, you must either prove your claims, or be subjected to
the claim of deception." Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't get stuck in a closet. Wear yourself out.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Brain-washed grovelers
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:40:58
EID:ea79 22849d00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e8ca
* On 01-04-97 at 12:37, SHELBY SHERMAN wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Brain-washed grovelers" in echo Holysmoke:
SS> Oh, but homos can't be saved, can they? Let's see, god creates these
SS> individuals with all these feelings, feelings that the unanimous consensus
SS> of medical professionals state cannot be changed, but if they continue
SS> to act out these natural (for them) inclinations, they cannot be saved?
SS> You're quite confused little virgin boy.
Whatsmore, he now claims that to live celibate with such feelings (i.e.
he
admits that it is innate and immutable) is also immoral.
Rod "...how typical of the liar we know as Ken" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * That was Zen... This is Tao!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Gays *DON'T* Choose!
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:42:00
EID:eb4a 22849d40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e908
* On 31-03-97 at 18:35, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> We both know you wouldn't accept evidence on this. Come
KY> on, it is what you are. You don't want to be proved wrong
^^^^^^^^^^^^
KY> on it.
Ken admits gays don't choose. Gays are, in fact, born that way.
It's who they are.
Rod "...just thought you all might like to know" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Famous graffitti: I used to be indecisive; am I sure?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:46:02
EID:f3e8 22849dc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344e9fa
* On 30-03-97 at 07:40, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KD> KY> Well, not like it is anything to be ashamed of, so yes, I am a
virgin.
KD> I'm not asking you to be ashamed, but maybe you should recognize that
KD> experience does change how one sees sex.
I find it ironic that homohater Ken Young finds virginity
something that shouldn't be stimatised, but sexual orientation
should.
What a hangup, no?
Rod "...*sigh* When will he learn?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Diplomacy: The patriotic art of lying for one's country
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:48:04
EID:e88e 22849e00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344ea74
* On 01-04-97 at 23:14, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Around the World in.. 2/" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> RS> You fail to understand that Karl called you a moron because you
JS> RS> failed to understand that in 41 states in the United States, it
JS> RS> is QUITE legal to fire someone due to their sexual orientation,
JS> RS> and the person has no right nor claim of job discrimination.
JS> and would you list some evidence/examples of where and when it actually
JS> happens?
Certainly. Check out:
Shahar v Bowers
Englund v City of Dallas
your local Cracker Barrel Restaurants
KFC stores in Louisville, KY
Oh, and the biggest employer of them all -- the US Military! :)
Even civilians employed in ancillary services are not allowed to
be gay.
Would you like more cases? I have many more available.
Rod "...you forgot about that big one, eh?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The foolish and dead alone never change their opinion
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Sean Coldren
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:53:06
EID:f629 22849ea0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344eba2
* On 01-04-97 at 03:41, SEAN COLDREN wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Court Records" in echo Holysmoke:
SC> A very..... stubborn, thick headed, person, but not a pig. :)
Actually, I'd have described it as stubborn, *ignorant* person.
I'm sure he's able to understand things easily. It's his
ignorance to evidence that means none of it sinks in.
SC> I do have to agree with you on one thing, Ken. When someone
SC> can't come up with an intelligent reply, it does come down to
SC> name calling, unfortunitly.
Would you agree that Ken only makes claims, not evidenced
statements? Maybe he gets the scorn he does because he makes
blindingly ignorant, incorrect statements?
SC> For all you people that have no idea of who I am, I will just
SC> say that I am one of Ken's long time rivials on the gay issue,
SC> and some politics. Not all though.
Welcome. For your information, Ken has presented a number of
claims here he refuses to evidence. He claims that all gay
people who he has met have *actually* chosen to be gay, no matter
how many of them claim that they did not.
In fact, when someone claims they never chose to be gay, he
claims they did anyway.
This is blatantly dishonest.
Rod "...maybe that's why I called him a lying cunt, for example,
because it was demonstrably true" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Anti-women, anti-gay -- born again bigot, go away!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:55:08
EID:7236 22849ee0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344ec1c
* On 30-03-97 at 07:35, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Ken Young: Poster child" in echo Holysmoke:
KD> KY> It is easy to open the eyes of the decieved? HArdly.. When one
is
KD> KY> convinced of something, it takes a lot to convince them otherwise.
KD> Huh? Gay teenagers kill themselves because they know people like you
are
KD> out there.
Gay teens out there kill themselves because their family listens
to the agenda of the religious political and social extremists
that Ken so readily repeats.
Then again, if they won't kill themselves, there's always the
generally young people who go out and kill a few queers for
Christ, based on the same agenda.
Rod "...Ken still doesn't see the blood on his hands though,
because this agenda of hate can easily claim that they have
nothing to do with the *actual* acts, and hence ignore claims
that they precipitated the environment that led to the acts." Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * God is watching me? What is he, a pervert?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 19:56:10
EID:2d6d 22849f00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344ec5a
* On 01-04-97 at 19:27, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KD> KY> The majority of cases of child rape are examples of sodomy, which
KD> KY> tells me that most are likely gay.
KD> Nope - the perpetrators are straight. They just like little boys as
well
KD> as grown women.
Actually, mostly little girls.
Rod "...but that's really irrelevant, as pedophilia doesn't
follow sexual orientations by gender, but by age." Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Live sex in a Toyota nixes evil
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:04:12
EID:f3b3 2284a080
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344ee3c
* On 02-04-97 at 01:30, DAVE HAMILTON wrote to GEORGE HARPER,
on the topic of "Cheese Whiz" in echo Holysmoke:
DH> GH> As for Ron Fitzsimmons' statements: When they were made, there
was
DH> GH> such an uproar that research was done...and evidence found to
DH> GH> support the claim.
DH> Excellent. What evidence? Many of us have been searching
DH> but unable to find it. Please direct us to verifiable sources.
Further, the claims were released March 2. It is now April 2.
You claim the "research was done".
I find that any research devised, conducted, and reported in
under one month -- let alone a year -- to be highly questionable
in practice.
Rod "...I think you are lying, George!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Diplomacy: The patriotic art of lying for one's country
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:07:14
EID:1e6d 2284a0e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344eef2
* On 31-03-97 at 18:15, DOUG SCHWANDT wrote to KAREN DAVIS,
on the topic of "ACLU News 01-30-97: C 2/2" in echo Holysmoke:
DS> Consider this: If the freedoms of CHRISTIANS can be
DS> taken away, nobody is safe.
Consider this: If the freedoms of ANYONE can be taken away, the
Christians are in power!
Rod "...makes sense, no?" Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: Death, are you for it or against it?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: Book Theft
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:14:16
EID:8808 2284a1c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f098
* On 01-04-97 at 08:18, GEORGE HARPER wrote to KAREN DAVIS,
on the topic of "Re: Book Theft" in echo Holysmoke:
GH> KD> JS> determine a husband and wife differentiation for definition's
GH> KD> JS> sake...you call cubby your husband and he, you. that is a bit
GH> KD> JS> confusing.
GH> KD>
GH> KD> Why? Husband is a word for "male partner."
GH> Actually, it all evolves down to who sleeps on his stomach being
GH> the "wife" of the moment.
I'm sorry, but you are just plain ignorant.
GH> But, then, with oceans between them, perhaps neither Chris
GH> NOR Rod sleep thus, so that THEIR claim, while pointless,
GH> may be accurate: they could both be buggering others, as proxy
GH> for the absent partner.....
I'm sorry, but Christopher and I are monogamous. That includes
while we are apart. Anyway, it's more fun that way. In a way,
it's nice to spend months apart. Means that every minute
together is special. Mostly, we like to hug when we get back
together because we've missed holding each other for so long.
It has now been nearly 10 months since I was last there. This is
the longest amount of time we've ever spent apart. Nearly double
the normal amount of time (about 5.5 months).
GH> No, that would defeat the concept of monogamous marriage which
GH> is "forsaking all others" (or did the faggots do away with
GH> THAT part too?).
It's nice to know Christians would rather peddle lies than truth,
and would rather peddle hatred than love.
I love you George. May your bitter heart be fixed by whatever
god you believe in, because it's clear that you cannot fix it
yourself.
Rod "...I pity you!" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus saves! Krishna invests! Cthulhu forcloses!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: J.C. Kibler
|Sub: Repent NOW!
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:19:18
EID:db47 2284a260
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f1c6
* On 01-04-97 at 23:18, J.C. KIBLER wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Repent NOW!" in echo Holysmoke:
JK> TAKE THAT, YOU GODLES HEATHERN SCUM! CRIST WILL HAVE YOUO
JK> ALL ON A BARBEQUET SPIT IN HELL FOR BLASFEMY!
I'm sorry, is that pain from the impaling your last opponents
gave you, or the one you anticipate to get from us?
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * If this is reality I want a refund!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:21:20
EID:7284 2284a2a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f240
* On 01-04-97 at 23:27, JIM STAAL wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA,
on the topic of "You lose." in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JB> You'd love it here then. You can't even get into the emergency
room
JS> JB> unless you $110 to give them upfront. They couldn't refuse you
if you
JS> JB> were bleeding to death or having a heart attack, but they can and
will
JS> JB> if you have a broken limb and no cash or plastic to cover it. (If
you
JS> JB> have insurance, that's fine...the insurance has to reimburse YOU)
JS> I think you live in the land of Neanderthals. It doesn't sound like
much
JS> fun. I pay $10 to go to the doctor, and the hospital charges the
JS> insurance company first and then what they don't pay comes to me.
No. You both live in the Neandertal lands :) I pay nothing, and
instead, forgo 1.4% in dedicated taxation should I earn more than
$12K per annum.
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Nuke a godless homeless commie gay baby whale for Christ
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:23:22
EID:d194 2284a2e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f2ba
* On 01-04-97 at 17:05, KAREN DAVIS wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "Baby burning in Hell" in echo Holysmoke:
KD> LB> How does Roe v Wade outlaw birth?
KD> JS> No, it outlaws God-given life.
KD> How?
Exactly. I thought it outlawed rape-given "life"! :) Among a
number of other "life" that is perpetrated against unwilling
women.
Rod "...Jim is such a simpleton." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * If Jesus is Jewish, why does he have a Spanish name?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Evidence for Ken! 1/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:31:24
EID:25be 2284a3e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f49c
* On 01-04-97 at 00:15, KEN YOUNG wrote to SHELBY SHERMAN,
on the topic of "Ken Young: Poster child" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Because they feel trapped in a lifestyle that they think they don't
KY> KY> have a choice about. They have been told there is no choice, so
they
KY> KY> believe that.
KY> SS> I repeat, on what do you base your conclusion that sexual preference
is
KY> SS> a choice?
KY> One of the things I base that on, is that many change their
KY> minds, later in life.
Many? All the evidence from studies shows that virtually *NIL*
change their sexual behaviours when it is attempted to be
changed.
Here's an annotated bibliography:
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
Annotated Bibliography
Pastoral Theology & Care
Iliff School of Theology
Sharyl Bender Peterson
Fall, 1993
In the past few years, as the United Methodist Church has
struggled to decide upon appropriate forms of pastoral and
congregational responses to lesbian women, gay men, and bisexual
people, a number of alternatives have been suggested. One of those is
the development of so-called "Transforming Congregations." While
characterizing themselves as "a response of love," the basic premise of
these groups is that "homosexual practice is a sin" and that for a
homosexual person to "become a full and responsible member of a local
church" that person must "experience restoration to a healthy
heterosexuality" (see "Transforming congregations" reference below).
On the other hand, the clinical literature in psychology suggests
that rather than being a loving response to a person's sexuality, so-
called "transformations" of this type -- referred to in the
psychological literature as "conversion therapy" or "reorientation"
therapy -- are in fact questionable at best, and profoundly harmful at
worst. Drawing upon that literature, recent social scientific data,
and contemporary theological scholarship, many theologians and
ethicists have questioned how and whether "transforming" or "ex-gay"
movements in the churches are consistent or inconsistent with Christian
teaching and practice. This bibliography is a compilation of current
work in psychology, theology, and ethics, which addresses those
questions, and which suggests some alternative, person-affirming forms
of pastoral response and care.
Blair, Ralph. (1984). Ex-gay. New York: HCCC.
Blair begins with a brief review of ways in which Scripture has
been used to support the oppression of Jewish people, of Catholics, and
of people of color. He then notes the importance of recognizing how
our understanding and perception of many groups of people have changed
historically. Finally, he turns to a consideration of the oppression
of homosexuals, and of the "ex-gay" literature, which he feels
comprises "just a recent chapter in the recidivist wrong turnings in
church history" (p. 2).
Blair's central thesis is that "there is still no documented
empirical verification of any permanent change from homosexual
orientation to heterosexual orientation through the 'ex-gay' processes"
(p. 2). He supports this by describing dozens of claims and
publications proffered by allegedly "ex-gay" persons and organizations.
And, he asserts that most persons who have claimed to have become "ex-
gay" have in fact returned to their original orientation. He also
notes that the organizations that published the original "ex-gay"
claims have not retracted those claims, in spite of their subsequent
falsification. In fact, those organizations continue to publish
information falsely alleging that these persons have become permanently
"ex-gay."
The primary usefulness of Blair's article is in raising readers'
awareness that the claims offered by "ex-gay" groups appear to be
misleading at best, and patently false at worst. The weakness of this
article is Blair's use of nearly as anecdotal an approach to "research"
and criticism as the approaches espoused by those he criticizes. He
makes many excellent points, but also tends to perseverate in some of
his arguments (e.g., going on for 10 long pages about a single study).
He also mixes, somewhat randomly, sound criticisms based on research
methodology and on theological scholarship, with criticisms based on
his own apparent personal dislikes for some of the organizations
described. In summary, this article provides an enlightening look at
many of the spurious/inaccurate claims made by "ex-gay" groups, but
would have been stronger and more convincing if it had been done in a
somewhat more concise and scholarly way.
Cameron, Paul. (1992). What causes homosexual desire and can it
be changed? Washington, D.C.: Family Research Institute, Inc.
This piece is the basic position paper used by Focus on the
Family; it has been and continues to be widely distributed to
interested (presumably, conservative) Christians who want to know more
about homosexual orientation and behavior. Using a simple question-
and-answer format, it purports to provide data regarding the "etiology"
of homosexual orientation, recruitment of children by homosexuals, the
effect of religious convictions on sexual conduct, and "transformation"
of homosexual orientation through psychotherapy, or through religious
or spiritual conversion.
The author (who has been ejected from the American Psychological
Association for his consistently unethical misreporting of scientific
data) asserts that homosexual orientation can "certainly (be changed
and that) many people have turned away from homosexuality -- almost as
many people as call themselves 'gay'" (p. 7). Not surprisingly, the
data cited is outdated and inconsistent with more recent findings, as
well as re-interpreted and misrepresented to fit the conservative, gay-
and lesbian-hating agenda of the author. I include the piece only
because it is now quite widely-distributed, and may be the only thing
people have read about this subject, and therefore potentially very
influential, as well as harmful in presenting deliberately false
information about gay men and lesbian women. It is also a strong
example of how research findings may be deliberately twisted and/or
misreported to support a person's or organization's particular
ideological ends.
Comstock, Gary D. (1993). Gay Theology Without Apology.
Cleveland: The Pilgrim Press.
This is an outstanding book, written primarily for readers who
have already given some thought to relevant theological and social
scientific work in this area. Comstock uses the Exodus story and the
Jesus story to frame his theology, and to argue for appropriate forms
of pastoral/church responsiveness to gay men and lesbian women. The
common threads (between the two stories) he explicates are "the
unacceptability of pain and suffering inflicted upon one person or
people by another" and the significance of both as "stor(ies) of
liberation and change from slavery to freedom" (p. 10).
He raises several issues that I found particularly exciting,
interesting, and useful in thinking about pastoral care. The first is
his insistence that we do not just accept the fact that the Bible
contains biases (he addresses these biases most particularly in the
Levitical codes), but that we engage and challenge them. The second is
his analysis of parallels between Israelite culture around the time of
the exile to Babylonia, and U.S. culture over the past three decades,
and how in both cases relative economic strength or weakness led to
relative acceptance or rejection of marginal members of communities.
The third is his notion that the meaning of Jesus' story is not about
looking to Jesus for answers to our human quandaries, or as "the
answer" to our dilemmas, but is about finding our own answers,
specifically through working out our relationships with others. And
fourth, his notion that God is not outside us, but between us -- that
God exists in our mutuality and reciprocity in relationships.
Comstock's last chapter, "Credo," addresses issues of God's identity,
sin, salvation, grace, the meaning of Jesus, sacraments of Baptism and
Communion, and especially, the essentialness of "creat(ing) and be(ing)
in community in which (all) people can give, contribute, and feel
valuable" (p. 20).
While this book doesn't consider the issue of reorientation
specifically, Comstock makes it abundantly clear why changing one's
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Evidence for Ken! 2/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:31:26
EID:d5be 2284a3e0
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orientation is not a possibility that any truly Christian person would
consider advocating for another. I liked this book tremendously, and
found that his proposed theology (particularly the idea of God existing
in our relationships) powerful and helpful. The only shortcoming I
found in this book was his general emphasis on gay men, with
considerably less
attention to lesbian women, although they are implicitly included in
much of his discourse. Overall, however, this is a terrific book, and
would be one of the two "must-reads" I would suggest from this
bibliography.
Hilton, Bruce. (1993). Can Homophobia Be Cured? Nashville:
Abingdon Press.
This book, written from a United Methodist perspective, begins
with a chapter that briefly defines and describes homophobia. In
setting the tone for the remainder of the book, the author notes that
"we of the Church have forgotten that the primary issue is not the
causes of homosexuality, or whether it can be 'cured,' or whether its
practice is a sin, but do we love our neighbors, whoever they are?" (p.
21).
Hilton uses a simple question-and-answer format to address a
variety of issues, including people's feelings and attitudes toward
many issues related to sexuality, and some of what we know about gay
people (including a debunking of many of the common myths about gay men
and lesbians). He also lays out (at a fairly basic level) some of
the current scholarship on Biblical statements about homosexuality and
homosexual acts, and describes parallels between the contemporary use
of Scripture to support the oppression of gay people and historical
uses of Scripture to support other forms of oppression. He also
describes what the United Methodist Church has had to say, and
currently says about some of these issues, and most importantly,
describes what our ministry should be to each other. And, he speaks
specifically to the "ex-gay" movement, and the many problems with that
approach. His final chapter focusses on whether homophobia, not
homosexual orientation, can be cured, and how to get started on the
road to change, offering suggestions both for individuals, and for
congregations who are interested in examining and changing their own
homophobia attitudes and behaviors.
The book is intended as a first-read, perhaps, for people who are
just starting to think about some of these issues. Hilton speaks to
the reader who is willing to consider arguments that come from a place
other than Biblical literalism and/or unexamined homophobia. This
would be an excellent resource for confused, or uncertain, or wondering
people in a congregation who are willing to learn more, and to examine
their own prejudices in the light of current theological and social
scientific thought.
Krajeski, James P., Myers, Michael F., Valgemae, Allan, and
Pattison, E. Mansell. (1981). "Ex-gays": Religious Abuse of
Psychiatry? American Journal of Psychiatry, 138(6), 852-853.
This is actually a Letters to the Editor section of the Journal,
in response to the Pattison & Pattison article described elsewhere in
this bibliography, and Mansell Pattison's reply to those letters. The
first three authors discuss some of the biases in the Pattison &
Pattison research, including the following. (1) Krajeski notes that
"(T)he authors did not examine the possible abuse of psychiatry by
religion evidenced in the buttressing of religious tenets by
questionable or inaccurate psychiatric concepts. For example, all
respondents were reported to find homosexual relationships fleeting and
emotionally unfulfilling. Since many homosexuals form long-lasting,
emotionally fulfilling relationships, the subjects' conclusions would
appear to represent their own homophobia or neuroticism. Rather than
exploring these issues and providing education concerning
homosexuality, it appears that these inaccurate stereotypes were used
as a tool to enforce adherence to a religious belief concerning the
immorality of homosexual behavior" (p. 852). (2) Myers notes that the
study contains "obvious and therapeutic bias, small study sample, and
less than rigorous methodology" (p. 852), and points out that
"(P)atients in severe moral conflict about their homosexual behavior
who do embrace the tenets of a particular religion, no matter how
ambivalent, should be supported in their efforts to seek clarity. The
therapeutic task is one of assessing what homosexual behavior means to
the individual in the context of his or her total life experience.
Therapist neutrality is fundamental; bias in either direction ('gay is
good' or 'gay is sinful') may be alienating or destructive to the
patient" (pp. 852-853). (3) Valgemae notes that "(T)he term 'ex-gay'
does great injustice to the variations present among people who exhibit
homosexual behavior... If investigators do not differentiate among
origins of homosexual behavior, they only make more difficult the
efforts to legitimize true homosexuality in a society that currently
loads all homosexuals with an extra burden in life: if not that of
trying to change one's sexual orientation, then that of trying to
accept homosexuality within oneself" (p. 853). In his reply, Pattison
does not address any of these criticisms, but repeats some of the
rationale and claims from the original study.
This is an important piece to read after reading the original
research. While these responses fail to note all of the problems with
the Pattison & Pattison research, the Blair article listed elsewhere in
this bibliography does raise additional other issues not addressed
here, and between this article and the one by Blair, one can get a good
sense of some of the serious problems with a piece of research that is
being repeatedly cited in support of reorientation therapy.
Morin, Stephen F., & Charles, Kenneth A. (1983). Heterosexual
bias in psychotherapy. In Joan Murray and Paul R. Abramson (Eds.),
Bias in Psychotherapy (pp. 309-338). New York: Praeger.
This chapter offers a clearly-written critique of many of the
heterosexist biases that are prevalent in psychotherapy today. Many of
the issues raised here are also relevant to the provision of pastoral
care. Briefly, the authors define "heterosexual bias. . . as a belief
system that values heterosexuality as superior to and/or more 'natural'
than homosexuality" (p. 309). These biases include: (1) those in the
basic value systems underlying therapy (and pastoral care), (2) biases
in certain specific psychological theories (particularly in
psychodynamic and learning theories), (3) biases in language used to
describe behaviors and feelings, and (4) biases in interventions --
including conversion therapy.
With regard to the last issue, the authors note that while the
many methods that have been employed in attempts to alter homosexual
orientation have "regularly fail(ed). . . their poor success rates do
not mean that these efforts are harmless" (p. 321). And, the authors
go on to describe the various forms of harm caused by such
interventions. The authors also describe the evolution of lesbian- and
gay-affirmative therapies, and offer a brief summary of current
developmental thought on the coming-out process. Finally, they provide
an excellent analysis of the power politics of psychotherapy, and offer
four important guidelines that should be taken to heart by any care-
provider -- secular or pastoral -- when working with lesbian women, gay
men, or bisexual people.
I think this is a particularly useful article. The authors are
much more attentive to gender-inclusivity than are many others. While
much of the work in this area focusses specifically on gay men, this
article considers lesbian women as well, in both language and in
assumptions. Their descriptions of biases can help care-givers examine
their own belief-systems more carefully and critically, and their list
of guidelines offer the potential for radically improving the quality
of care that one gives.
Murphy, Timothy F. (1992). Freud and sexual reorientation
therapy. Journal of Homosexuality, 23(3), 21-38.
This is a good, concise piece, accessible to readers without
extensive background in psychology, that summarizes some of Freud's key
views on homosexuality and on reorientation therapy. The key points
include: (1) Freud's belief that human beings are by nature bisexual,
and a brief discussion of the ways in which he construed bisexuality,
(2) the importance of constitutional bisexuality for the origins of
homoeroticism; and (3) the influence of psychodevelopmental events on
the development of homoerotic desires and behaviors. More important in
their implications for psychotherapy, and potentially for pastoral care
as well, are Freud's: (1) rejection of the belief that homoeroticism in
and of itself constituted pathological behavior (although this must be
tempered by his belief that homoeroticism did reflect a form of
"inferior" or "arrested" development), (2) purported general refusal to
accept patients for treatment if their "only complaint was
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Evidence for Ken! 3/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:31:28
EID:45bf 2284a3e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f4a0
>>> Continued from previous message
homosexuality," (p. 28), (3) resistance to the legal prosecution of
homoeroticism, and (4) advocacy for social tolerance of homoeroticism.
With regard to reorientation therapy, Murphy describes several
examples where Freud questions or cautions against the likely success
of conversion therapy, including the full text of Freud's now-famous
letter to the mother of a homosexual son. Interestingly, it is
Murphy's contention that neither does Freud "rule out conversion
therapy as impossible," (p. 27), but Murphy fails to provide much
evidence to support his case. Freud's general assertion was that if a
person was not neurotically conflicted about her or his homoeroticism,
neither reorientation or other forms of psychotherapy were particularly
likely to be successful. And, as Murphy repeatedly notes, "Whatever he
thought about conversion therapy, Freud thought society could and
should reduce the burdens on those who loved in homoerotic ways" (p.
36).
Although a little simplistic, Murphy's article offers a good place
to begin to understand some of Freud's thoughts about homoeroticism.
Freud's work is particularly important since it has provided the
foundation for much psychodynamic thinking today. And, it is important
to recognize that it is primarily psychodynamically-oriented clinicians
who continue to cling today, in spite of the lack of any supporting
empirical evidence, to the notion that homoeroticism does in fact
constitute a form of pathology. I believe that as pastoral caregivers,
we have a responsibility to understand both historical thought and
contemporary research in this area, rather than relying on possibly
inaccurate perceptions of what "psychologists believe" about
homoeroticism.
Murphy, Timothy F. (1992). Redirecting sexual orientation:
Techniques and justifications. The Journal of Sex Research, 29(4),
501-523.
This article provides a very good historical overview of various
techniques that have been employed in attempts to change homosexual
persons' orientation. Murphy describes three major classes of
treatments -- behavioral techniques, psychodynamic interventions, and
biological therapies. Justification for the use of particular forms of
reorientation therapy varied. In some cases, implementation of therapy
was based specifically on beliefs that homoerotic orientation was
pathological, and should therefore be "treated" as were other
conditions that warranted medical treatment. In other cases, treatment
stemmed from "respecting the wishes of certain individuals who would
rather have sexual desires and behaviors other than the ones they do"
(p. 505). Murphy notes a general historical shift in attitudes from
the former perspective to the latter, "as evidenced by the fluid status
of homoeroticism within orthodox psychiatry's diagnostic nomenclature"
(p. 517), which he also reviews. However, despite some changes in ways
of talking about homoeroticism (e.g., as a disease process,
psychosocial maldevelopment, or moral defect) thinking about it in the
psychiatric community appears to retain the assumption that -- despite
a plethora of scientific evidence to the contrary -- it is indeed a
"pathological state or psychological disorder. Indeed, even in the
U.S., despite the formal action of the APA, many psychiatrists continue
to believe that homoeroticism is a serious psychic disorder. . . Some
even hold the view that involuntary treatment is appropriate. . . Such
views, of course, continue to encourage the experimental pursuit and
use of reorientation techniques" (p. 518).
Murphy raises a number of important questions and issues. (1)
Historically, most reorientation therapy has been conducted on men;
Murphy's analysis of possible reasons for this unevenness is very good.
(2) Despite a history of failure, there has been and is an on-going
search for reorientation methods that "work." (3) "(I)t is a matter of
debate whether a person can come to seek reorientation in a way that is
properly called 'voluntary'" (p. 519). Both overt punitive
circumstances like incarceration in a Nazi concentration camp or in a
U.S. prison, and more covert (sometimes) forces like societal pressures
and homophobic responses lead one to seriously question whether "men
and women requesting reorientation do so in a truly voluntary way" (p.
519).
Finally, Murphy notes that psychiatry has continually treated the
"problems" with homoeroticism as if they were centered in the
individual rather than in that person's social surroundings. and that
contemporary psychiatric practice continues to "treat the person who
suffers rather than ameliorating the social forces which devalue
homoeroticism" (p. 519). This last point brings us to issues that are
particularly relevant to pastoral care. Pastors need to be aware of
the data on reorientation therapies, and the implicit and profound
biases in the use of such techniques. As Murphy notes, "(T)here would
be no reorientation techniques where there was no interpretation that
homoeroticism is an inferior state, an interpretation that in many ways
continues to be medically defined, criminally enforced, socially
sanctioned, and religiously justified" (p. 520). Murphy raises a host
of important issues that should help pastoral caregivers reflect upon
their own assumptions and the kinds of care they advocate and provide.
Pattison, E. Mansell, & Pattison, Myrna Loy. (1980). "Ex-gays":
Religiously mediated changed in homosexuals. American Journal of
Psychiatry, 137(12), 1553-1562.
This is a research report that is perhaps the most widely-cited
recent article in support of reorientation therapy. The authors
describe a psychiatric study of 11 men who self-identified as
homosexual and who reportedly, through their involvement in "folk
therapy" in a pentecostal church, changed their orientation to
heterosexual. Based on their findings, the authors conclude that "the
phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without
explicit (psychiatric) treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be
much more common than previously thought" (p. 1553). They argue that
if a person is ideologically committed to change, and engages in a
milieu (e.g., that provided by a church with a 'gay is sinful' stance)
that supports his or her ideology, change may be a relatively common,
if not easy, outcome.
The study itself suffers from numerous methodological flaws, which
have been addressed at length elsewhere (see, for example, the Blair
and Krajeski et al. pieces in this bibliography). Perhaps two of the
most glaring problems are the incredibly small sample-size, and the
authors' conclusions based on their own reports of subjects' responses.
With regard to sample size, the authors' review of participants in the
particular church's "ex-gay" program offered a potential pool of 300
such persons. However, of those 300 clients (over a 5-year period),
only 30 "claimed to have changed from homosexuality to heterosexuality"
(p. 1554). And of those, only 11 men agreed to participate in the
study. This degree of self-selection alone should make the reader
cautious about the meaningfulness of the data. With regard to the
second problem, of those 11 men who participated, only four scored as
Kinsey 6-0 (that is, as having an exclusively homosexual orientation
upon entering the program, and having an exclusively heterosexual
orientation upon completing it). The majority of men interviewed
(including those who had subsequently entered into heterosexual
marriages) reported continuing to have recurrent same-sex dreams,
fantasies, and impulses. One questions how they can then be accurately
characterized as "ex-gay."
The authors' own biases are evident throughout, in repeatedly
describing homosexuality as "deviant," and in suggesting that the
"social position that 'gay is good'. . . does not change the problem of
destruction of personal identity inherent in (that position)" (p.
1561). They cite another study regarding "a homophile church, (in
which) the search for identity and community support was often vitiated
by its liberal theological stance, which accepted the identify of the
person as homosexual. Thus, the church ideology perpetuated the
confusional problem of identity" (p. 1561). In contrast, Pattison and
Pattison's note that "our subjects rejected the ideology that 'gay is
good' within the framework of their orthodox Christian theology (and)
reduced the social deviancy of homosexuality . . . through personally
changing the deviant condition" (p. 1561). The authors clearly view
homosexuality as a pathological, deviant, and highly undesirable
condition which they assert can be changed in people who want to
change. They argue, based on their correspondence with unidentified
"numerous informal 'ex-gay' self-help groups in existence throughout
the U.S., Europe, and Asia . . . (that) there appears to be a
substantial number of persons who are similar (in changing their
orientation) to the population represented here" (pp. 1561-62).
This is a particularly dangerous kind of article. It is published
in a highly prestigious professional journal, which alone lends it
credence that it does not deserve, based on its shoddy methodology, and
clearly-biased assumptions. It appears to be sufficiently "scientific"
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Evidence for Ken! 4/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:31:30
EID:75bd 2284a3e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f4a2
>>> Continued from previous message
that is may be (and in fact, has been) appropriated as "sound evidence"
by those who would argue for the appropriateness and success of
reorientation therapy, and of "ex-gay" movements in churches. It is to
be hoped that pastors seeking support for a response to persons in
their congregations would reflect carefully and thoughtfully about
similar pseudo-scientific reports, before accepting them as a basis
upon which to construct pastoral care.
Scanzoni, Letha, & Mollenkott, Virginia Ramey. (1978). Is the
Homosexual My Neighbor: Another Christian View. San Francisco:
Harper & Row.
This book is probably the classic work that addresses issues of
homosexuality, theology, and the church. Although it only mentions the
specific issue of change in orientation briefly (on p. 4), it raises a
host of issues that are the focus of much of today's conversation about
"appropriate" responses (by the church) to homosexual persons. The
authors provide a basic grounding in some of the myths, research
issues, and relevant data regarding homosexuality. They include an
excellent description and critique of the widely-used Kinsey scale, and
its relation to the broader issue of orientation, a brief review of
much of the other contemporary (as of their date of writing) scientific
research in this area, and of the inadequacies of research models (many
of which persist today). They also provide an exegesis of what has
become the classic "Samaritan" analogy, of the Levitical codes
(including perhaps the only reference to lesbian women in the
literature vis-a-vis these codes), of Paul's pronouncements about
sexuality, and of questions that are not answered by the Scriptures.
Perhaps the most useful chapters from a pastoral care perspective
are the last three in the book, which deal with ethical and theological
issues. In Ch. 7, the authors describe current fears that many people
have about homosexuals, which fears (among other factors) give rise to
homophobia, and note that the church has a responsibility to respond
both to fears and to homophobia. In Ch. 8, the continuing "debate in
American Christendom" is described, including three prevalent
perspectives that appear to characterize many Christians and Christian
churches today. And, Ch. 9 proposes a "homosexual Christian ethic"
which draws together knowledge about sexuality, Scriptural
understandings, and our God-given capacity to care for one another.
This is a strong book, in spite of its age. Rather than being
outdated, most of what the authors discuss is even more strongly-
supported today by contemporary theological and social scientific
scholarship that has occurred since the book was first published. If
you are just starting to think about these issues, and want a good
theologically-informed starting-place, and were only going to read one
selection from this bibliography, this would probably be the book to
read.
(No author). (1991, February). Transforming congregations:
Upholding Biblical standards. Christian Social Action, p. 31.
This article briefly describes the basic assumptions of the
Transforming Congregations movement in United Methodism. Briefly, this
movement asserts that: (1) they are "a ministry to and with
homosexuals and their families," (2) that "the acceptance . . . of
homosexuality as a normal sexual expression . . . is harmful to the
homosexual person, compromising to the biblical integrity we are called
to uphold, and destructive to the religious heritage we so dearly
cherish," (3) that "homosexual persons . . . 'are persons of sacred
worth who bear the wounds of fallen humanity and need the sexual
healing only Christ can bring,'" and (4) that only through restoration
of a "healthy heterosexuality" can homosexuals become "full and
responsible member(s) of a local church" (p. 31). The article
basically asserts that the beliefs espoused are accurate (without
providing supporting evidence of any kind), and fails to note that
other forms of loving, Christian response are possible, or that there
is any psychological or alternative contemporary theological
scholarship which should be considered in deciding on the appropriate
form of response. This article is useful in providing a snapshot view
of the Transforming Congregations movement.
Additional Resources
While the majority of these do not consider reorientation
specifically, they are very useful in considering a variety of issues
in psychotherapy and in pastoral care primarily of lesbian women, gay
men, and bisexual people, although many of the theological and ethical
issues addressed in these materials are relevant to all persons.
Boston Lesbian Psychologies Collective. (1987). Lesbian
Psychologies -- Explorations & Challenges. Urbana: University of
Illinois Press. An excellent collection of contemporary work on a
range of topics related to lesbian women's lives and experiences,
including identity, relationships, family, therapy, and community
issues. An extremely valuable resource for pastoral care.
Boswell, John. (1980). Christianity, Social Tolerance, and
Homosexuality. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. This is the
classic treatise on social responses to gay men (primarily), with
particular attention to responses by the Christian church, in Western
European cultures from the beginning of the Christian era to the 14th
century. The first two chapters -- "Introduction" and "Definitions"
stand well on their own, and provide an excellent introduction to
important concepts and issues.
Gonsiorek, John C. (1988). Current and future directions in
gay/lesbian affirmative mental health practice. In Michael Shernoff &
William Scott (Eds.), The Sourcebook of Lesbian/Gay Health Care, 2nd
ed. (pp. 107-113). Washington, D.C.: National Lesbian/Gay Health
Foundation. Delineates areas where the author feels current work on
therapy with gay men and lesbian women has fallen short, and suggests
directions for future research in this area.
Greenberg, Daniel F., & Bystryn, Marcia H. (1982). Christian
intolerance of homosexuality. American Journal of Sociology, 88(3),
515-548. For people who don't have time to read Boswell (elsewhere in
this list), this article briefly outlines the history of Christian
responses to homosexuality from "late antiquity" (ancient Greece) to
the Middle Ages. What is most notable is that, contrary to the oft-
cited "fact" that all cultures at all times and locations have
condemned homosexual relationships, the evidence shows that cultural
responses have been highly variable. The authors suggest several
hypotheses to explain this variability.
Hunt, Mary E. (1992). Fierce Tenderness: A Feminist Theology of
Friendship. New York: Crossroad. This is a wonderful book that puts
friendships of all kinds, between women of all kinds, at the center of
a theological-ethical framework. This work has profound implications
for pastoral care of all kinds.
Krajeski, James P. (1986). Psychotherapy with gay men and
lesbians -- a history of controversy. In Terry S. Stein & Carol J.
Cohen (Eds.), Contemporary Perspectives on Psychotherapy with Lesbians
and Gay Men (pp. 9-25). New York: Plenum. This first chapter to a
very good book identifies key issues regarding past research on
homosexuality, current research issues in this area, trends in
psychotherapy, blind spots in the psychotherapeutic literature
(including a failure to address possible negative effects of
psychotherapy on lesbians and gay men), and the emergence of new
ethical issues in this area, including a discussion of reorientation
programs.
Martin, A. Damien. (1984). The perennial Canaanites: The sin of
homosexuality. Et cetera, 41, 340-361. This is a delightful piece
that takes on, with wit, intelligence, and thoughtful consideration,
the Fundamentalist arguments against homosexuality based on the
Creation story, the Sodom story, the Levitical codes, and the four New
Testament statements by Paul.
Miletich, Leo N. (1984). Now I lay me down to sleep. The
Humanist, 44, 28-31. This is a slightly satirical "bedtime prayer"
intended to raise readers' consciousness about gay people, and about
many churches' and public figures' responses to them.
Mollenkott, Virginia Ramey. (1992). Sensuous Spirituality: Out
>From Fundamentalism. New York: Crossroad. This was my very favorite
of all the things I read. It is an extraordinary book on theology,
framed by, in, and around issues of gender and sexuality.
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * Why fantasize when there are hamsters and duct tape?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Evidence for Ken! 5/
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:31:32
EID:e5bc 2284a3e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f4a4
>>> Continued from previous message
Nelson, James B. (1978). Embodiment - An Approach to Sexuality
and Christian Theology. Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House. This
book makes an especially important contribution in placing
homosexuality (on which there is one chapter) within the much broader
context of human sexuality. Nelson's thesis is that a fundamental part
of our humanity is our sexuality, and that understanding our sexuality
-- understanding ourselves as embodied creatures -- is a critically
important task for theology.
Rice, Howard R. (1982). Homophobia: The overlooked sin. Church
& Society, 73, 5-13.
Writing from a Presbyterian (USA) perspective, the author outlines many
of the causes of and appropriate responses to homophobia.
Sheppard, Gerald T. (1985). The use of Scripture within the
Christian ethical debate concerning same-sex oriented persons. Union
Theological Seminary Quarterly Review, 40, 13-35.
I found this article to be a very tough read, but well-worthwhile. The
author provides a very interesting ethical analysis of
"homosexualities," Scriptural responses to them, and alternative
Christian ethical responses. A good piece that offers some unique
insights.
Woodman, Natalie Jane, & Lenna, Harry R. (1980). Counseling with
Gay Men and Women. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass. Offers gay- and
lesbian-affirming approach to counselling, including chapters on the
coming-out process, working with gay couples and their families,
working with gay youth specifically, and a historical and contemporary
overview of social, clinical, and religious responses to homosexuality.
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Why fantasize when there are hamsters and duct tape?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:38:34
EID:49af 2284a4c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3344f64a
* On 01-04-97 at 21:00, ROGER HUNTER wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT" in echo Holysmoke:
RH> RS> Now this is just CLEARLY ignorance. Further, it's working
RH> RS> AGAINST finding a cure. We're only just seeing now people still
RH> If we kill them all we won't NEED a cure.
RH> RS> If we killed them all, we'd not have any clues as to why their
RH> RS> genes provide them some resistance to developing AIDS.
RH> It wouldn't matter.
So the US is to close it's borders, and subject itself to regular
testing regimes -- oh, you failed to remember HIV has a "window"
before antibodies show up to be able to be tested for?
So how are you going to enforce celibacy on every American while
they all pass the six-month false-negative window?
Rod "...imprison them?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't buy furs. It takes trees to make protest signs.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 05 Apr 97 00:39:36
EID:49af 228504e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33452ec8
* On 02-04-97 at 08:10, ROGER HUNTER wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT" in echo Holysmoke:
RH> RS> No. Roger has said that he should be put to death instantly, as
RH> RS> "all HIV positive people die".
RH> I did, and I would. Who wants to die of AIDS?
I'm sorry. Some people do *not* die of HIV/AIDS. In fact,
survival rates are vastly improving due to new treatments.
RH> RS> Rod "...I note that if he had been able to institute that policy
RH> RS> 17 years ago, we'd have no people living with HIV for more than
RH> RS> 15 years -- and hence lost the valuable research into why they
RH> RS> had not developed AIDS and others have" Swift :)
RH> We would also have no AIDS to worry about.
Oh, I didn't know your plan was an international one. Or are you
proposing the US seal its borders?
Rod "...how typical" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't buy furs. It takes trees to make protest signs.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 05 Apr 97 00:59:38
EID:a60c 22850760
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345337a
* On 02-04-97 at 15:19, JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Oops, Caught Again" in echo Holysmoke:
JB> RS> No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you
JB> RS> were gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not
JB> RS> have happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
JB> These things were said by Staal to the echo's One True Fag, Scot
JB> Bear.
[Staal Mode On]
No no no!. He's "False Faggot Scum!"
[Staal Mode Off]
Had to be said! ;)
JB> Anybody have any idea what's happened to Scot? Where he is? How he's
doing?
JB> He was just about to start a new job, the last I saw anything of him
here.
JB> I hope he's well and happy.
Don't we all?
Rod "...and isn't Jimson a loving type -- blaming the victim for
the persecutor's actions, eh?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Yogi Bear was a nudist buddhist
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Book
|Date: 05 Apr 97 01:07:40
EID:0730 228508e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345355c
* On 01-04-97 at 20:03, RICHARD SMITH wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA,
on the topic of "Book" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> We could do radio, though. We'd have to choose between Art
RS> Bell and Rush Limbaugh, though. Unless we really lucked out
RS> and got on Tom Leicus. That would be tres cool . . .
For reference, it's Leykis :)
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * At least I never misplaced the Deltivid asteroid belt - Q
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 05 Apr 97 01:09:42
EID:19ad 22850920
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 334535d6
* On 01-04-97 at 20:54, RICHARD SMITH wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> ky> While it would be wrong, I see no reason for a law
RS> ky> against an adult and a teenager from doing it. Just as
RS> ky> long as no one was forced into it.
RS> Got a cute little thirteen-year old you want to pork, Lube
RS> Boy? Is that why you're so permissive, you are a chicken
RS> hawk? You think statutory rape is okay?
No. He's probably a filthy NAMBLA-ite, if he believes that 55
year olds and 13 year olds should "do it".
Remember, he's also against laws outlawing sodomy, hence,
combining the two, he's a filthy NAMBLA supporter.
Rod "...you heard it here first!" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * That tagline is *true* ---> <--- That tagline is *false*
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: More Christian Terror!
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:16:46
EID:2639 22851200
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345458e
Isn't it great how those preachers who crusade against gays and abortion
are the most loving of family values types?
Rod "...yet another false Christian, eh Jim?" Swift :)
___---------------------------------------------------------------------------
REUTERS, March 11, 1997
ORLANDO, Fla. - A popular Florida minister was in jail without bond
Tuesday charged with kidnapping and pistol-whipping a man during an argument
over money.
The Rev. Charles Evans, 45, has led the 2,500-member Trinity Assembly of
God church for 15 years. From the pulpit, he has crusaded against abortion
and gay rights.
Last month Orlando television stations began showing a videotape
purportedly of Evans in a Daytona Beach strip club, fondling a stripper
and
slipping money into her garter.
Evans denied he was the man on the tape but strippers at the club said
Evans was such a frequent customer he was nicknamed Furniture.
Evans stepped down from his position as head pastor while his
denomination's governing body investigated the tape.
But one of those who identified Evans from the videotape was Jason
Wheeler, 25, who told police that Evans was the man he had known as Chad
and
who pistol-whipped him five months before.
Evans was arrested after investigators corroborated Wheeler's statement,
said Orlando police spokeswoman Cheryl Degroff-Berry.
He was charged with aggravated battery, aggravated assault and kidnapping,
Degroff-Berry said. According to a police report, Wheeler told them Evans
forced him into a car, bound his wrists, beat him with a gun and threatened
to kill him Oct. 29, 1996.
The Rev. Terry Rayburn, superintendent of the Assemblies district council,
said he questioned Evans regarding Wheeler's complaint and Evans admitted
being in Wheeler's apartment. Evans said he was there on church business.
Rayburn said Evans remained popular at his church where an overflow
congregation gave him a standing ovation during his last Sunday sermon before
stepping down.
"He's our preacher and he's a good man," said Wanda Simpson. "He's a
man of God and it's going to take more than this to bring him down."
But Cindy Zender, a former member of the congregation who gave the
videotape to Orlando television stations, said: "It's long overdue. I'm
just
thankful justice is being done."
___---------------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Why fantasize when there are hamsters and duct tape?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Holy Cow, St Petersburg!
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:26:48
EID:e46c 22851340
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 334547e8
Another example of loving domestic Christian terrorist-wannabe nutcases.
These ones are already possibly linked to terroristic activities
in the Northwest to further their death-cult-inspired
anti-government activities.
BTW, catch the reaction of the ministers in Clearwater. I can't believe
they used "Holy Cow!" as an apt expression!
Rod "....FYI!" Swift :)
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
ST. PETERSBURG TIMES, March 22, 1997
Reputation for racism taints church's welcome
By MIKE WILSON
CLEARWATER - The Easter weekend, the holiest time on the Christian
calendar, will bring to Clearwater what many will consider an ungodly
event: A meeting of an Idaho church group that believes white Europeans
are the true Israelites and Jews have conspired to control the American
economy.
Among those scheduled to speak: a tax-protesting minister from Missouri,
a Holocaust revisionist from Idaho and a Nebraska pastor whom one
human-rights activist describes as "a hardcore racist and anti-Semite."
America's Promise Ministries, of Sandpoint, Idaho, has been linked to a
series of bombings in the Pacific Northwest in 1996. But its pastor
said Friday the group was not involved.
"We're good people. We're Christians," pastor Dave Barley said. "We're
promoting the Christian Gospel, which I think is a benefit to anybody
of any race, of any nation, of any community."
Why is the group meeting in Clearwater? "Florida is a nice place. We
like to visit there, and that's the end of the story," Barley said.
Tampa Bay religious leaders were shocked to learn of the meeting.
"Holy cow! They're having their conference here?" said Roy Kaplan,
director of the Tampa office of the National Conference, which seeks
to strengthen relationships among religious groups. "They have a right
to have their conference. I just wish they would go somewhere else."
America's Promise Ministries will meet next Saturday and Sunday at the
Holiday Inn Select, 3535 Ulmerton Road. About 100 people are expected,
hotel general manager Richard Maslar said.
Maslar said the hotel was not aware of the group's beliefs when Barley
booked the room, using the name Gideon's Outreach. Maslar plans to
honor the reservation. "It's just another group that's having a
meeting here, as far as we're concerned," he said.
America's Promise Ministries is the outreach arm of the Lord's
Covenant Church, the Idaho congregation of which Barley is pastor.
Barley said the church "believes like any other fundamentalist church
out there. . . . We believe in salvation for all races, and that no man
can be saved except through Jesus Christ."
Although church members believe that northern European whites are the
Israelites described in the Bible, Barley denied that the church
preaches racism or anti-Semitism.
Asked if he thinks there is a conspiracy among Jewish people to
control the government - a commonly held belief among so-called
"Christian Identity" groups - Barley said, "I do believe there is a
conspiracy among Jews to control the money system, yes."
Coalition for Human Dignity, a Seattle organization that monitors
hate groups, said that the Lord's Covenant Church is more malignant
than Barley lets on. Among Barley's associates is Richard Kelly
Hoskins, whose book, Vigilantes of Christendom, forms the basis for the
Phineas Priesthood, according to CHD research director Robert Crawford.
"The Phineas Priesthood is an honor that is bestowed on a Christian
Identity believer who commits a racist or anti-Semitic or anti-gay
murder," Crawford said. Hoskins' book is available through America's
Promise Ministries' World Wide Web site for $20.25, but Barley denied
that his church has anything to do with the Phineas Priesthood.
"I've never been to a Phineas Priesthood meeting, and I've never
heard anybody call themselves a Phineas priest," he said.
Other titles available on the Web site: The Anti-Federalist Papers;
Did Six Million Really Die? America, Free, White & Christian; and
The Way Home (Beyond Feminism & Back to Reality).
Church leaders in Tampa Bay said they were not inclined to disrupt
the Christian Identity meeting.
"I would not ever go on record as saying that a group doesn't have
a right to meet and do its own business," said the Rev. Manuel Sykes,
pastor of Bethel Community Baptist Church in St. Petersburg. He
invited Barley and his followers to join the effort "to reconcile and
to heal - with equal justice for everyone."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Atheism: A non-prophet organisation
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Love The Sinner debunked
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:32:50
EID:e890 22851400
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33454952
I just thought that you all might benefit from this thorough and complete
debunking of the ideology that Ken spreads here about loving the sinner
but hating the sin...
... the best bit is that the letter is from a devout Christian, claiming
that Christians have no right to claim that they know what love is about.
Rod "...enjoy!" Swift :)
___----------------------------------------------------------------------
THE STOCKTON RECORD, MARCH 10, 1997
530 E. Market St.,Stockton,CA,95202
Arguments are indefensible
Elma Mae Henderson's letter published Feb. 22 brought to light yet
another way in which sexually diverse people can be discriminated
against in the name of Christian love. Henderson clearly is not
mean-spirited. I believe she really doesn't wish ill on anyone.
owever, the view she takes is one that is often used by Christians
to put people who do not fit their standard of normal into a morally
justifiable closet when there is absolutely no legitimate, intellect-
ually defensible way, even spiritually, to do so. The essence of the
discrimination is still ignorance of who the people really are, what
they represent as human beings, and what they deserve in the way of
basic human rights in a supposedly free society.
This "love the person and hate the sin" approach is fundamentalist
in nature, and fundamentalism is generally viewed by many scholars,
spiritual and otherwise, as lacking in common sense and defensibility
either from a theological or humanistic standpoint. If one believes
that God is all-powerful, all-good and the prime spiritual power in
the universe, and that God is the prime element in the creation of
life, then one cannot logically or morally conclude that another's
expression of love can be faulted. Procreation is not the primary
function of love. Love is the primary function of love. Putting
other conditions on it is spiritually and intellectually invalid.
Love produces its own products and benefits, which have no dependence
or bearing whatsoever on secular conditions generated by the narrow
mind of mankind.
Elaine Albertson
Stockton
___----------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * The *Constitution* is the Contract with America!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Ironic twist, no?
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:39:52
EID:522a 228514e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33454af8
To highlight the crimes of Christian Domestic terrorists for not being
exposed for what they are, some ingenious culprits did this...
After all, the religious right claims that it cannot get government to
outlaw gays -- the Army of God, in taking responsibility for the Atlanta
bombing claimed the bombings will continue until the government makes
the gays go away.
Why shouldn't gays symbolically protest in reverse? Or are Christians
the only ones allowed to terrorise the nation for their agenda? *smirk*
Rod "...enjoy!" Swift :)
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
The CHICAGO TRIBUNE, March 25, 1997
METRO CHICAGO
BOMB SCARES BRING EVACUATIONS
The discovery of two parcels suspected of containing bombs caused the
evacuations of the observation deck at the Sears Tower and four floors
at the James R. Thompson Center Monday afternoon.
The Chicago Police Department's Bomb and Arson Squad was called in
after a knapsack and a duffel bag were found unattended in restrooms
at the observatory and on the second floor of the Thompson Center. The
bags were found to be containing fake bombs.
An alarm clock was found in the duffel bag, according to a state
spokesman. A police spokesman said the two bags each contained a note
complaining about the treatment of homosexuals by the religious right.
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * God is watching me? What is he, a pervert?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Creationism under attack
|Date: 05 Apr 97 10:39:54
EID:c6e3 228554e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3345bb7a
Just when I thought that we'd never hear anything more about the case
involving Professor Dr Ian Plimer and the creationists, up pops this
story in today's "The West Australian", Saturday 5 April 1997, page 3.
Note that to be in the Supreme Court, one must pay a lot of money
for legal representation. Thousands of dollars a day for Queens'
Counsel representation, or hundreds of dollars a day for
representation by normal counsel. The court costs are also
hundreds of dollars per day.
It's expected to last 20 court days. Plimer is stopping at no
expense on this one. Thank goodness for rational people like
Plimer! :) :)
Rod "...even more reason to go out and buy 'Telling Lies for
God', so that we can all have both a valuable book, and support a
great fighter for free thought and scientific advancement!" Swift :)
___---------------------------------------------------------[page 3]
GEOLOGIST OUT TO SINK NOAH'S ARK
MELBOURNE
By Tom Salom
___-------------------------------------------------
A GEOLOGIST will being legal action on Monday in a
bid to stop creationists teaching that the Earth is
a mere 6000 years old and that all species emerged
from Noah's Ark.
Professor Ian Plimer will ask the New South Wales
Supreme Court to deem promotions making such claims
in breach of the Trade Practices Act.
Professor Plimer, the head of the School of Earth
Sciences at Melbourne University, will argue that
creationist seminars for profit are deceptive and
misleading.
Professor Plimer contends there is no scientific
evidence to support claims that parts of Noah's Ark
were found in Turkey or that the Earth was created
by God rather than evolving over billions of years.
The hearing, expected to last four weeks, stems from
creationist lectures and seminars by Sydney academic
Allen Roberts.
Professor Plimer claims that Dr Roberts' company,
Ark Search, used reports that parts of the ark were
found in Turkey to underpin seminars detailing how
Noah and his animals survived the great flood.
People paid to attend the seminars and literature
and videos supporting the theories were offered for
sale.
"This fundamentalist codswallop should not be
promoted as science when the relevant tests on the
material in Turkey have not been undertaken,"
Professor Plimer said.
He respected religious beliefs but they should not
be taught as scientific fact.
Dr Roberts, who could not be reached for comment
yesterday, has said that a lens-shaped structure
found near Turkey's Mt Ararat formed part of the
remains of Noah's Ark
___-----------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Was that my hard drive, or are you torturing a cat?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:03:30
EID:b22a 22851060
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 33460cba
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Sue Alexander <=-
RS>> What are you doing to stop these terrorists?
JS>> Nothing. It is the job of the police in Atlanta. When they happen
JS>> in GR (they won't) I'll be the first to bitch.
SA> Why won't they happen in Grand Rapids, Jim? Aren't there any
SA> Christians there, or are you trying to imply that there are no
SA> terrorists there?
RS> Sue, there's nothing to suggest that Grand Rapids is safe from
RS> Christian domestic terrorists. Why, it was only about 3 weeks
RS> ago when DETROIT (just down the road) had their own Christian
RS> domestic terrorist who killed three innocent people in a bank.
Hell, there is nothing to suggest that ANY town, no matter how
remote, is safe from Christian terrorists. There is too much
opportunity for travel in and out of almost every place (at least in the
US), and too many people that are in need of a nice padded room and very
good drugs. There is nothing (other than wishful Staal thinking) to
suggest that these people cannot be Christian as well.
Sue
... Saint (n) - A sinner with a good post mortem PR man.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Christanic Terrorists
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:14:48
EID:79ba 228511c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 33460cbb
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to George Harper <=-
GH> Proposition: It shall hereinafter be totally illegal to perform,
GH> or to participate in the performance of, any abortion.
RS> Why not just choose not to have one, George?
It would be a miracle if he was ever in the position of choosing
that for himself. ;)
Sue
... The unquestionable miracle: god should have impregnated JOSEPH!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:26:43
EID:61ea 22851340
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 33460cbc
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Sue Alexander <=-
RH> SO WHAT? It's fatal and I don't care HOW hard it is to catch. You
RH> want to sleep with lepers? It's hard to catch, too.
SA> Say you catch HIV from a blood transfusion...would YOU be willing
SA> to allow youself to be locked away for the rest of your life?
RS> No. Roger has said that he should be put to death instantly, as
RS> "all HIV positive people die".
Might as well kill all newborns then, as they all die.
Sue
... Tagline Deleted: Nothing funny about this shit.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:26:43
EID:07ec 22851340
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 33460cbd
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
KD> I found *birth* to be disgusting. Shall I outlaw that?
JS> The pro-choicers have already tried and suceeded in doing that.
DC> And the name of that law is?
JS> It's called 'roe v wade'.
LB> How does Roe v Wade outlaw birth?
JS> No, it outlaws God-given life.
I have 2 questions. #1. In your point of view, what is the
difference between birth and "God-given life"? #2. Where does Roe v.
Wade outlaw either of these?
Thanks in advance.
Sue
... Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: The Sacred Scribe, 608 827-6755 (1:121/45)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Harper
|Sub: SCIENTIFIC PROOF AVAI
|Date: 04 Apr 97 20:54:58
EID:206b 2284a6c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3345f5ed
REPLY: 1:104/447 2f8c5dd4
George Harper said "SCIENTIFIC PROOF AVAI" to Roger Hunter, adding:
GH> #1, you haven't proven the information I alluded
GH> to was false;
Nobody has to. _Any_ information stated may legitimately be
regarded as false until the one asserting that information provides
requested evidence. This request from you is another instance of
your asking people to disprove (prove a negative) what you say
rather than your responsibly supporting your own assertions. Want
another promissory note in circulation until you see the point?
GH> #2, you haven't substantiated the claim that it was
GH> authored by "a preacher of some sort";
That _is_ his responsibility, yes, but it can commfortably wait
until such time as you have shown your information to be valid.
Surely, you would not want it demonstrated that a _named_ preacher
of some sort hath uttered something you discover in your search for
support to be bullshit? Make sure of the information first, and then
you are safe in making this request.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: ! another for the FAQ
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:10:14
EID:640c 22851140
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33460331
Lynda Bustilloz said "! another for the FAQ" to DON MARTIN, adding:
LB> Hey Don! Per your book:
FR> But K. Y. Jelly won't be around in a year to get his nose rubbed in
the
FR> fact that everyone is still right here where we've been since time began.
SQ> If we're lucky, we'll get another "I'm shaking the dust off of my
SQ> feet" post, or perhaps a "Brothers and sisters, let's do what we can
SQ> to get rid of HOLYSMOKE once and for all."
LB> A collection of impassioned goodbye messages would make interesting
LB> reading. Especially those that follow up a commitment to stay forever
LB> and convert the entire echo. (G)
I already have "Fundy Farewells" listed as the final chapter, he
says smugly. Have you a copy of Schroeder's? Is it less than 300
pages? (More to the point, is it any good?)
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Book
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:15:00
EID:64b3 228511e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33460332
REPLY: 3:640/375.1 3344ce47
Mark O'Neill said "Book" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> Don't sweat any typos--my removing my _own_
DM> embarassments in a sense obligates me to clean up
DM> everyone's. I don't quite know what to do with the collected
DM> works of kindly ol' Doc Globberg, though: clean _his_ up,
DM> and you lose the joke of some idiot fundy "correcting" him.
DM> But his sense is worth more than cheap jokes (however much
DM> temptation looms).
MO> I often wish to do the same, however, as long as the general gist of
MO> the statement is recognisable I don't. It gives me the shits at times
MO> not editing my own mistakes where the error wasn't noticed at time of
MO> posting, but to abide by the only rule of this network and not correct
MO> spelling and/or punctuation is more important than correcting a simple
MO> mistake that is often so obvious. At least that's my opinion.
I really do not think that the "no editing" rule applies to your
own stuff. After all, as authors of what we post in public here, we
are presumed under U.S. law (with International agreements, for
youse guys who have not managed to be Amuuricans) to hold the
copyright thereto. That means that the author/copyright holder is
the only one who _can_ legally change the text to make revised
"editions"; anyone else attempting to make changes is violating that
law as well as echo rules.
I sometimes correct typos in quoted material of mine that I am
including in the reply, figuring that on its third trip around the
echo, it can go as a second edition (revised).
Later, you said "Long Strings of Posts" to me, adding,
DM> that happens, I go to Steve Rose's board to keep up.
DM> However, I have found in the past that Steve's board often
DM> has problems with _outgoing_ mail, so I have done a side
DM> shift with the comments, to post them on the Nerve Center,
DM> where 2-3 days' worth piled up before going anywhere.
MO> Is that what this is?
MO> | 29-Mar-97 04:11:49 Import started
MO> | 29-Mar-97 04:11:49 Unpacking mail
MO> | 29-Mar-97 04:11:51 Unpacked mail
MO> | 29-Mar-97 04:12:44 Received 635823 bytes in 1 packet
MO> * 29-Mar-97 04:13:44 Garbage in packet '333C0F30.PKT' (offset
MO> 385905)! ^^^^^^^
I dunno, but I doubt it. I do side shifts by saving replies in
a text file and using Blue Wave's packet manager to enter new
messages in the Nerve Center packet, addressing them by hand and
pulling in the text. I have seen them bobbing intact elsewhere, so I
know that they are at least leaving Baltimore in good shape.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: BOOK
|Date: 05 Apr 97 02:29:49
EID:dbfe 228513a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33460333
Roger Hunter said "BOOK" to Don Martin, adding:
RH> Uh......You DO plan on sharing the royalties, don't you?
DM> Hey, I've got my old age to think of (and at _my_ age, I don't
DM> have all that much time in which to do so).
RH> Tell me about it! But I may be even older than you; I'm 62.
RH> Have you considered publishing it yourself? All you need is a good
RH> printer to make the master pages, plus access to a copying company
RH> like Kinko's. Then you either center staple or cut and bind, depending
RH> on size. I'm thinking of 5.5" x 8.5" pages (8.5" x 11" folded).
RH> Cost would be around $5 each (wild guess). Retail for $19.95
RH> and retire!
Or pay rent on a storage unit and spend one's sunset years going
door to door trying to unload copies like a Jehovah's Witless? No
thank you.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Lee Woofenden
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: 9-The List
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:14:00
EID:777a 228451c0
PID: BWMAX 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:101/525.0 33453a9d
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c8db4d79
Here's what Katherine Wintersnight said to All about 9-The List:
KW> *Lee Woofenden ??? Smear on the In and out
KW> sidewalk for 'God'
Katherine,
I sent you an update to this. Did you not get it?
Looks like you got your information from Dan Ceppa. He is hopelessly lost
when
it comes to my alignment.
I am from MA. My alignment should read "Swedenborgian Christian." The "In
the
'Smoke" column should read "On since '93 or '94, when I have the time."
Thanks.
--Lee
... Anything you say will be misquoted and used against you.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
* Origin: Synthesis: where people and ideas meet. 508-564-7811. (1:101/525)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 04 Apr 97 11:15:18
EID:0968 228459e0
MSGID: 1:229/622 3344e2c7
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3342e1e4
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Dan complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Ken <=-
DC> Have you ever taken the time to think that there are Gay women
DC> out there, too?
But Dan...all a gay woman needs is a good hard fuck to turn her around.
Gay males get bashed. Gay females get raped.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Scientific Proof Available
|Date: 04 Apr 97 06:33:58
EID:11b9 22843420
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33451a3f
REPLY: 1:104/447 2f067e10
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to All <=-
GH> * Admit that I am correct, and then begin praying for forgiveness;
or
When are you going to get it through that thick skull of yours that he
who makes the claim gets to provide the evidence?
You've already had to apologize once. Bucking for several more?
Ok, Don did your homework for you once. You are such an arrogant piece of
shit that rubbing your nose in your lies was fun. But don't expect it to
happen again.
YOU MADE THE CLAIM...IT IS UP TO *YOU* TO PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 04 Apr 97 06:42:14
EID:61d9 22843540
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33451a40
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ea7b71cc
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to George
<=-
GH>I might lose their attention, and not be able to sneak in a little something
GH>extra under their noses without them seeing it in time...
KW> You're just the flavor of the month, sweetthings, nothing new and
KW> nothing really interesting other than watching you self gratify your
That little 'something extra' he thinks he's sneaking in is the deliberate
tampering with other peoples' posts.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: More fucking christians
|Date: 04 Apr 97 06:47:30
EID:3194 228435e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33451a41
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ff3c6091
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Richard
<=-
KW> Why, Richard, you know what a sweet and softly spoken 'little woman'
I
KW> am! Even Judith portrays me as a soft and warm cuddly kitten.
But then, I have cats. I KNOW what I'm doing.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 04 Apr 97 06:53:48
EID:1706 228436a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33451a42
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f407d233
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to George
<=-
KW> And I'm not a vulture, I'm a harpy. Aren't you capable of getting any
KW> fact more than half right.
Time to escort this one to a 'better' place? Like the Barney echo?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 04 Apr 97 06:57:56
EID:329f 22843720
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33451a43
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Lynda complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to KATHERINE
<=-
LB> And there are *others* here who want a bite out of him. ;)
Oh, icky poooo! Bite him? Not without a dental dam.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 04 Apr 97 07:00:52
EID:7804 22843800
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33451a44
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 343e6da1
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Rick complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to George <=-
RM> verse 22 along with the grasshoppers). They don't have 2 jumping
RM> legs, just 6 more or less similar limbs.
And he never even got around to arachnids.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Re: dumb religious delusions
|Date: 02 Apr 97 17:15:00
EID:bafe 228289e0
MSGID: 1:383/6293 333AAB29
In a message to DARRYL GONZALEZ <04-01-97 12:14> ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fab
RC> TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> DG> A brilliant mathematician, Dr. Robert Herrman, Professor of
RC> DG> Mathematics at the U. S. Naval Academy, has published an
RC> DG> excellent mathematical demonstration using set theory which
RC> DG> shows that it IS in fact reasonable to believe in God.
RC>
RC> Since I have for many years maintained interest both in set theory
RC> AND in religious superstition, the above appeals to my curiosity.
RC>
RC> Unfortunately, I am unable to find any reference to this alleged
RC> "demonstration" in order to add it to my collection of amusing
RC> mathematical fallacies. Where did *you* hear of this claim, Darryl?
RC> An extensive multi-library catalog search and Web search for the
RC> man's name turned up nothing.
RC>
RC> Kindly provide a full citation for the above, if you can; or let
RC> me know you are just teasing, if you cannot. Thanks.
Hi, Robert.
The URL you want to look at is:
http://www.redbay.com:80/org/creation/sehi.txt
There are also other interesting articles at www.redbay.com related to
creation. Have fun!
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If the bar waitress snickers at your drink order, saying. "I'll see
if we still make that drink."
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: School Prayer
|Date: 03 Apr 97 03:34:00
EID:331e 22831c40
MSGID: 1:383/6293 333B3C4B
Actually, Robert, this may surprise you, but this is one time that I agree
with you. Students DO have a lot of religious liberties, and students of
all
religions (Christian and non-Christian alike) should maintain those liberties
while they are on school property.
The real problem is NOT that they don't have those liberties, but that in
some cases in recent years, school officials have tried to prevent them
from
using them. For example, during several "See You At the Pole" prayer
meetings, schools in the South (whose names I don't recall right away) tried
to deny students their constitutional right to peaceably assemble. What
we
need is strict protection of those constitutional rights. And that should
start by training teachers and administrators on what those rights are,
and
setting up penalties for violation of those rights, beginning (but not limited
to) termination of the person involved.
Also, Christian churches need to be aware of what they can and cannot legally
do. As you rightly stated, they cannot send an adult representative on
campus
to teach the Bible. If I understand the law right, though, they can use
the
members of their youth group to distribute flyers inviting students to an
after-school Bible study held off school grounds, so long as the youths
do it
in a non-disruptive manner.
Just out of curiosity, are you a lawyer? You write like one.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If your preacher's sermons every Sunday seem to include you.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
* Origin: The Warrior's Path 915-659-2424 *Texas* V32b V42b (1:383/6293)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: READING INCOMPREHENSI
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:19:17
EID:5704 2281aa60
MSGID: 1:207/212 58f99c87
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 92e70009
On (31 Mar 97) Marilyn Burge wrote to Karen Davis...
MB> symptoms because of it. I also take no insulin or other drugs, but
MB> control my diabetes entirely with diet.
That's wonderful. What I was speaking of is an emergency crisis
situation where a diabetic goes hypoglycemic.
... MicroSoft: Where quality is job 1.1!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:20:07
EID:e43e 2281aa80
MSGID: 1:207/212 969ad7c5
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A301
On (30 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karen Davis...
KY> Hold it.. You want to stop existing? Even more than that, you don't
KY> want to go to what would basically be Utopia? Even if life may get
KY> one down from time to time, I could never understand that.
You might not be able to, Ken, but 1. I don't think of it as a utopia,
and 2. I don't want to go there no matter what. I *want* to simply turn
to ashes.
... clop clop clop bang bang clop clop clop - Amish driveby
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:22:05
EID:391c 2281aac0
MSGID: 1:207/212 440223d2
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 333d872a
On (29 Mar 97) Richard Smith wrote to Karen Davis...
RS> KD> A man was executed for sedition and heresy [that's what I'm
RS> KD> assuming the charges were] 2000 years ago. Big whoopee...
gh> The charge was blasphemy.
RS> Source for this claim is . . . ? Chapter and verse,
RS> Georgie.
I can't see where it makes a difference. Sedition, heresy, blasphemy.
... "We could take in an old Steve Reeves movie." -- Frank
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:22:45
EID:be0d 2281aac0
MSGID: 1:207/212 15e81ea0
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333ddddc
On (30 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karen Davis...
KY> I have answered this for several people, but I shall do it again.
It
KY> was a sacrifice because of the torture Christ had to go through.
KY> Yes, He is God, so how could he be tortured, some might ask. Well,
He
KY> came here as a human being, so the sacrifice was very real indeed.
How? Death wouldn't be anything to God. Some physical pain wouldn't be.
KY> Someone had to die for the peoples' sins.
KY> It was all to give people the oppurtunity to come to Christ and be
KY> saved.
Huh?
... An optimist is a guy without much experience.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:24:15
EID:6959 2281ab00
MSGID: 1:207/212 035196fe
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 333d7e31
On (29 Mar 97) Judith Bandsma wrote to Karen Davis...
JB> You're female, you don't kiss any man's ass and you haven't offed
JB> yourself yet. To George, that's 3 wrongs.
Gotcha.
... This statement is true-> <-This statement is false
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:24:32
EID:7861 2281ab00
MSGID: 1:207/212 ebd6f1fc
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 7e77d3af
On (31 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Why? Husband is a word for "male partner."
JS> And that is where the definition of marriage under the law comes in.
Though the law should not be concerned with defining marriage by
religious standards. It's a contract.
... Do not make excuses unless you have to.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:25:35
EID:7d3e 2281ab20
MSGID: 1:207/212 f0149430
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 0138b663
On (31 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
JS> Not according to the stats. How come all of a sudden _millions_ of
JS> women have dangerous jpregnancies and it didn't happen before roe v
JS> wade?
JS> (even that one was not for that purpose)
Because those women either 1. had unrecorded pregnancies before legal
abortion or 2. they died or accepted the destruction of their lives the
pregnancy caused.
KD> We're then moving on to late term abortions, which are done ONLY for
KD> the health and life of the mother.
JS> Not according to Ron Fitzsimmons.
According to the REAL stats you could count occurrences of this
procedure after viability would ordinarily have occurred on one hand per
month.
KD> BECAUSE THE MOTHER IS GOING TO DIE IN THE DELIVERY IF THEY DON'T. You
KD> don't get the point.
JS> The head is already out of the womb.
Nope. The head is still up there endangering the mother. That's why they
have to do the procedure in the FIRST PLACE.
KD> BECAUSE THERE IS A DANGER TO HER, AND THE BABY IS LIKELY ALREADY
KD> DYING.
JS> Hah! Pack of lies.
The lies come from the anti abortion crusade.
KD> The head is the largest part and the hardest to get out. We are
KD> dealing with situations where delivering the head will kill the mother
KD> or the
KD> baby.
JS> I do not believe a word of it. The mere facts of the procedure deny
JS> that.
The mere facts of the procedure PROVE it is a life saving procedure done
only in the rarest occurrences.
... MicroSoft: Where quality is job 1.1!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:29:37
EID:8a27 2281aba0
MSGID: 1:207/212 5d947f62
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 43cb5e6e
On (31 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
JS> I'm sure the right honorable pro-life jwill bring the truth/facts to
JS> light.
By demonstrating to the public how truthful the pro choice side has been
all along.
... 1000 + messages and they call it a QWK packet??
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:30:07
EID:bf40 2281abc0
MSGID: 1:207/212 a8a006c2
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 a47c04fc
On (31 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> No murders occur in women's clinics, Jim. Live with it.
JS> How can a place filled to the brim with Satan-led, greed driven,
JS> murdering slime doktors not do the job they are there for?
If they were greed driven, why aren't they doing births, which net
the doctor more money?
... "Frank N. Furter, it's all over!" -- Riff Raff
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: DRIVING MR. DAISY
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:31:02
EID:a85f 2281abe0
MSGID: 1:207/212 2d2c1eb8
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333edb58
On (30 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karen Davis...
KY> Depends on what you mean by "taking advantage of." While it would be
KY> wrong, I see no reason for a law against an adult and a teenager from
KY> doing it. Just as long as no one was forced into it.
Hard to say. If the adult is 18 and the teenager 17, I would look the
other way. If the teenager were 14 and the adult 30, I couldn't.
KD> I get *mine* by what is best for society and how I want to be treated.
KD> It is best that belongings of individuals stay safe [I know that because
KD> I want mine safe] so I do not steal or damage others' property. I don't
KD> want to be physically harmed, so I don't do it.
KY> Ah, sort of the "golden rule" philosophy.
In a sense. Call it enlightened self interest, if you like.
KY> So then, you would have no moral problem with someone doing something
KY> to themselves that woudn't hurt others, like any sexual experience,
KY> drugs, etc.?
I might have opinions on their relative merit, or my own taste might
enter into my opinion, or I might have concerns about whether something
hurts others or not, but I don't see those as "moral" issues, no. I do
not support drug use or promiscuity for health and psychological
reasons. I have no opinion whatsoever about any consentual sex act 2
adults [or even more, provided all are consenting and adult] wish to
engage in privately. Even if I disagree with acts or patterns of
behavior, seeing them as "moral" issues doesn't help any. If I were
asked to advise such a person, I'd probably help the person change more
in the end by telling them how they're hurting their body than how
they're hurting their immortal soul.
KD> No god needed.
KY> Sadly, that is the opinion much of the wrod seems to have these days.
KY> Whicxh is why this is becoming a society without morals. At one time
KY> most had morals they got from God, but now without God, we have
KY> ensured that there are no longer any moral absolutes in society. And
KY> when the definite morals go, so does the society.
Huh? I see it as maturing, frankly. Children see morals and rules as
absolute. Adults recognize the shades of grey. Children need an
"enforcer" to punish or at least be likely to. Adults do the right thing
without immediate consequences.
... A rose by any other name... Hmmm... How 'bout George?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Re: Thanks!
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:48:31
EID:5726 2283a600
> CB> do you have a list of sites for various religions on your pages?
> Wanna post the links here mate? I'd like to look at what the fruitcakes
> are doing for myself.
will do as soon as i've compiled a list.
QOFM.
Chris
--- DB B2300sl/001027
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Edgewater_FL_USA (1:18/14)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: 1-The List
|Date: 04 Apr 97 01:46:02
EID:1882 22840dc0
> WHO'S WHO: THE ALIGNMENT LIST:
> *Styx Allum, Eugene, OR USA. Atheist The
> Creator(tm)
not unless he's seen the light. Styx has always taken the path of agnostic
in the past.
> Christopher Edgewater, FL USA atheist from birth HolySmoke
> Baker since
> inception
> (cbaker84@digital.net)
> (http://ddi.digital.net/~cbaker84/christop.html)
> (Site 10 in HolySmoke Webring)
you can add: (Site 1 in International Atheists Ring of Truth Webring) to
my listing if you will.
thanks.
QOFM.
Chris
--- DB B2300sl/001027
* Origin: Rights On! - Religion Free Always! - Edgewater_FL_USA (1:18/14)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Hey, asshole
|Date: 30 Mar 97 08:18:13
EID:5687 227e4240
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 8e37e6c4
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2b096968
On 27 Mar 97, Fredric Rice wrote:
> On 17 Mar 97, Fredric Rice wrote:
> FR> http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
> FR> frice@linkline.com or frice@stbbs.com
> FR> ~*~ I would give all I owned to the Church. I know Jesus Christ
> FR> directs the affairs of the Church and would without question
give
> FR> it all.
> FR> - Ric Remington (Mormon fundy)
> (?) That the whole message? That's all I got....
> Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
> : jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
> : FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
FR> Was it a ZERO-content message, idiot?
No, it wasn't. Why?
If you intended the joke (a zero-content message), you found yourself in
an internal contradiction; a zero-content message wouldn't have been
written in the first place (whether "written" is you writing or your
computer inserting necessary addressing/tracking data).
Your message had content. It wasn't a "zero-content" message.
(Idiot.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Heisenberg was right? Are you certain?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Rick Mcfarlane
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 10:07:50
EID:a6d7 227f50e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 781bf887
REPLY: 1:222/10@Fidonet 33cad691
On Fri 28 Ma, Rick Mcfarlane wrote:
RM> Good morning, John.
Good Morning, Rick. Happy Easter to you.
RM> Actually, half of zero is -136.5.
RM> Celcius, that is.
JB> Hmm.... I thought that was half the freezing point of water....?
RM> And the freezing point of water is 0.
RM> Celcius that is.
Indubitably.
DC> You thought wrong again, John. Can you see why you are in
DC> error, yet again?
JB> No. 2x136.5=273 --the difference between "absolute zero" (Kelvin) and
JB> "zero" degrees Celsius, the freezing point of water. What's erroneous
JB> about that, quibbler?
RM> I thought it was kind of clever when I thought it up. Maybe too
RM> clever by half for Dan.
(*grin*) When one has an opinionated debate opponent, be he right or
wrong, it is difficult in the extreme to find something he won't attack
one on, no matter how minor.
RM> Take care.
And you.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Mysticism: Music by God; Lyrics by anonymous, for solo performance.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: blunder
|Date: 31 Mar 97 10:12:23
EID:ea2e 227f5180
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 eee8e920
REPLY: 1:3603/210 5237f070
On 27 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> Thank you, Humpty Dumpty. Any more words you wish to redefine for us
JB> ----------------terminated for insult content------
RC> The truth insults you?
It is not true that I am Humpty Dumpty.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Science without Religion is lame... --Einstein
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 10:13:49
EID:ac36 227f51a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 a11db956
REPLY: 1:3603/210 5237f071
On 27 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> JB>> on which side of the dividing-line between positive and negative
RC> JB>> years, is the "zero year" located? Do you not see that this is
RC> The current year is neither positive, "After the Present," nor
RC> negative, "Before the Present." It's Year Zero, and zero is
RC> neither of those.
RC> So what's the problem?
JB> Observe:
JB> 2BCE 1BCE "0year" 1CE 2CE 3CE
RC> You keep running way from the example I provided for you.
I've seen that effect on both our parts, sir.
RC> sense questions the fact about how the Common Era calendar works. But
RC> you said that is was impossible to have a zero year, so I demonstrated
RC> by way of example that you were wrong. Time for _YOU_ to observe:
RC> ... -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 ...
RC> -+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-
RC> ... [3BP][2BP][1BP][ 0 ][1AP][2AP][3AP] ...
RC> ^
RC> -now-
JB> Where does the zero POINT belong?
RC> Right where I put it. This year. The present year.
In the _middle_ of the year, as your diagram indicates. That is a zero-
width point (say, the crossover point at midyear's midnight).
Your diagram reveals the difference between our positions. If your zero
point is midyear, year zero, and [1AP] runs as shown, the end of [1AP]
is in the middle of the _second_ year.
JB> Where is the zero from which we begin to count the days of the
JB> "zero year?" In the "forward" direction,
RC> If you live forward in time like the rest of us, that would appear
If you prefer ignorance to truth.... The 'arrow of time' is not
apparent in most theoretical structures that describe reality. Recall
the positron....
RC> a natural place to start. The zero of the Zero Year applies to the
RC> entire BLOCK of days that make up the year, however, just as the
I have already agreed with that. However, chronologists do not make use
of such a "zero year," and people who do (such as you) find yourselves
having to re-label the year once it's over. A year-long block of time
called "the zero year" is nonsense.
JB> How do you place it?
RC> I place the zero atop the entire block of time constituting Year Zero.
Then you are in error, at least as far as standard practice in
chronology is concerned.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... REALITY.SYS corrupted! -- Reboot UNIVERSE (Y/N)?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: misuse and abuse
|Date: 31 Mar 97 10:26:08
EID:4611 227f5340
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 c2bb618b
REPLY: 1:3603/210 5237f072
On 27 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
JB> Math text, shows an image of a string being cut by a knife;
JB> string represents a line; line a series of points. Labelled
JB> a "Dedekind cut." Image looked pretty simple to me, so I
JB> dared try to use it.
RC> You saw a pretty picture with a phrase next to it, and that's it?
Nope.
RC> Without a shred of understanding, you "dared try to use it." ROFL!
RC> No *wonder* you misuse and abuse terms so often.
When you develop the ability to think clearly, and to avoid so many of
Dr. Beck's 'cognitive distortions' (that one is "mind reading"), let me
know.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Its is its possession. It's is it is. Is its use clear? It's clear!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Your True Character?
|Date: 31 Mar 97 10:28:36
EID:ef8e 227f5380
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 21d3eacd
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2b096969
On 27 Mar 97, Fredric Rice wrote:
> On 17 Mar 97, Fredric Rice wrote:
> FR> with: Laurie Appleton
> FR> with: John Brawley
> JB> Waddaya think of actual mammalian clones now in existence?
> JB> (Think about that before answering; there's an _evolution_
> JB> problem for you here....
> FR> Neat! You gotta wonder how quickly these nuts can slap-together
a
> FR> religious belief to cover every scientific progress.
> To which person were you referring?
FR> Yep.
Your phrasing was unclear ("these"), as to which of the
persons referred to was being called a 'religious' 'nut.' It seemed to
refer to Appleton, since my comment was meant in support of evolution,
but was ambiguous enough for me to call forth the joke....
It has been often enough the case that someone mistook (or misread so as
to mistake) me for a creationist. I sometimes force that deliberately,
but in this case it wasn't intended.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... ICR: Institute of Claptrap Renormalization.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap [1]
|Date: 31 Mar 97 10:33:01
EID:1cdb 227f5420
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 a6fb9c6d
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> CH>> > WHY is my counterexample so hard for some people to admit
CH> CH>> Because it's cracked.
CH> > They're BOTH cracked, depending on what you're trying to do with
CH> them. > Mine at least is symmetrical across "zero."
CH> Please point out a single instance in which what you're trying to do
CH> with them is internally consistent, consistent with the axioms of
CH> basic algebra, and still fails to be adequately solved under the
CH> existent mathematical formulae.
As you note elsewhere, I am simply questioning basic axioms. I have no
quarrel whatsoever with standard (established) math systems such as al-
jabbar and other "existent" math formulae.
Absent of existing axiomatically-underpinned systems, questioning the
differences between a continuous (infinitely subdividable) "number line"
and one composed of discrete (distinct) entities is useful to me.
(IOW, I'm doing all this either for the fun of it or for iconoclastic
exploratory reasons. That it seems to cause certain people (yourself
NOT included) to go into fits of apoplexy, is itself an interesting
effect, one I find in may places where people try to defend any sort of
system which is dependent solely on "it's SO! and that's the end of it!"
for its internal validity and consistency.)
CH> Now, if you want to admit that you're out inventing new axioms by
CH> which to play, then feel free and good luck. But don't expect your
CH> answers to match anything in real life.
I agree with what you say, up to the last comment. In examining what
"real life" may be founded on, in the sense of quantum physics and its
peculiarities, we are talking about 'real life,' and the fact that no
one yet _knows_ what the underlying reality is (if such exists) enables
me to explore along with the others who occupy some of their time with
such philosophical explorations.
I am not only out to "invent new axioms" with which to play, but also am
questioning the reasoning behind the axioms which already exist. (This
questioning-caused current echomail conflict is in a sense unavoidable:
if one discusses 'new axioms' with adherents of old (or 'standard' and
'accepted') axioms, one is bound to run into certain mental "brick
walls," thus generating argument.)
CH> CH>> Because at one point, you seemed to be having difficulty in your
CH> own CH>> system subtracting 6-6. You said you'd have to get back to
CH> us on this CH>> one. I'm just seeing if you've managed to come up
CH> with the answer yet.
The answer is that it seems the two systems are, as you noted,
inherently incompatible, but _why_ they are so is what's interesting.
Moreover, I find that for the most part, the incompatibility is most
loudly defended (in here, anyway) from the position of the "continuous"
math adherents. That is, while I can make _either_ system work IFF I
refer to the other occasionally, neither system seems to work
_independently_ of the other. This is paradoxical. Paradoxes are
extremely interesting to me.
CH> And that's zero. Zero blocks. Zero's a concept, and a number. Hello,
CH> McFly.
'All right, Biff; I'll get YOUR homework over to you by Sunday so you
can recopy it in YOUR own handwriting....'
(*grin*)
CH> > My system has no zero BLOCK. It does have a zero POINT (a
CH> no-width > dividing line between the ascending set of positive
(This is what I mean ^^^. I can make my system work consistently only
by referring to a zero _point_ (no width), which is a _continuous_
concept. But your system has an occasional incongruity also, as is
evidenced when trying to count discretely across "zero." This is the
essence of my examination: _how_do_ these systems interact, and which
one of them DOES represent a 'reality?" I find precious little
'presence-of-zero' in actual nature. ("Nature abhors a vacuum?")
(*grin*)
CH> John, all numbers are "points" in that sense. In a continuous system,
CH> a number is a point is an element in a set. In fact, in a discrete
CH> system that's equally true.
True, but not "equally." In the continuous, there appears to be an
ability to infinitely subdivide the 'gap' between any two number points.
In the discrete, there is a limit where no more gaps are available.
But perhaps you'll notice that your statement, if accepted as true,
absolutely begs the question, and is in a sense a re-casting of the very
problem I have been discussing: "a number is a point is an element in a
set," is a discrete-system (every number is unique) statement, riding
inside a seemingly continuous idea. To subdivide a number (say, to
halve it), you do not subdivide the _point_ that that number is "on,";
you _move_off_ of the point and down to another distinct point, half way
between your number and (presumably) 'zero.'
Now, to shorten this if possible:
(IF you wanted to pin down my whole motivation for this discussion, it
would be this: I could hardly care LESS what "standard math" says about
**_ITSELF_**; I care more what any useful math says about reality, and
even _more_ about that reality itself. In the long run, the question
is: "what sort of math does reality _itself_ demand be used upon it?",
or in the extreme philosophical sense, "what axioms of math does reality
force upon us, from the "thing-in-itself"-ness of its own nature?")
(Which of course begs the Bottomline Question: "what IS 'reality'?")
CH> > IOW, I must know where the crossover POINT is, but I do not need
CH> a > "zero block" to count correctly with this system.
CH> Then what happens when you cross over it? You get off by one.
Depends. Conway, in his explanation of "counting," notes the same
peculiar "off-ness" that I have. He says we must get our answer by
calling out the step _beyond_ the one we've landed on.
IN both cases, examples can be called out where you 'get off by one,'
depending on what you're trying to do with the system.
CH> The topological object you've been playing with is a joke, because
CH> you're trying to work with a discrete system in a continuous one. If
There is a hellaciously obvious difference between a "joke" and an
investigation of precepts. There's little that's funny about the
network of points of vertex order twelve. It is quite internally
consistent given it axioms. (Just as ANY properly-axiomated system is
--or should be-- internally consistent.)
However, given your phrasing above, you also (like most others) have
missed the point. I am NOT trying to work with a discrete system
_in_a_continuous_one_! Conceptually, it's the reverse: I am trying
(succeeding, actually) to work with a certain kind of incrementized
("quantized") continousness _in_a_DISCRETE_one_. That is, the system
STARTS OUT as, or is axiomatically defined as, a discrete-unit-
concatenated topological "universe" (complete entity), and only after
the first steps of the system's formation are completed, does it become
obvious that there is continuousness contained in each and every two-
neighbor-point subset of the object.
You seem to, but do not clearly state that you are, assuming I am
working first with a background space, then adding my points, which I
assure you is NOT the case.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Worry is the interest paid on trouble before it becomes due.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap [2]
|Date: 31 Mar 97 11:17:49
EID:1cdb 227f5a20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 f87ed7d7
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
>> CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS MESSAGE <<
CH> CH>> 2am, I don't start with 8pm. I start counting "9pm is 1 hour,
CH> 10pm is CH>> 2, 11pm is 3,
CH> CH>> midnight is 4, 1am is 5, 2am is 6." If I started with "8pm is
CH> 1", I'd CH>> be an hour off.
CH> > Not so: _You_ arrive at the correct answer by 'waiting until
CH> hour > number one (that from 8pm to 9pm) is over," then saying
CH> "one." The > process continues. If I started with 8pm, I would
CH> say "one" right > away, then wait until 9pm and say "two" (and so
CH> on) until I had
CH> > reached the beginning of 2am, where I'd stop, and be correct
CH> also.
CH> Count'em with me. Beginning of 8pm is 1. Beginning of 9pm is 2.
(Pardon: just for clarification: "beginning of 8pm is beginning of 1.
Beginning of 9pm is beginning of 2...." I didn't, in my example, say
that the hour was OVER when I said "one," I merely chose to LABEL the
count of the hour at its beginning rather than at its end. See below.)
CH> Beginning of 10pm is 3. Beginning of 11pm is 4. Beginning of 12am is
CH> 5. Beginning of 1am is 6. Beginning of 2am is 7. You're an hour off.
When 1 am is over, I don't start _counting_ 2am's hour; that'd be silly.
When I reach the end of #6 (end of 1am), I _stop_. The beginning of 2am
is not PART OF 1am! Where'd you get that idea?
CH> Care to try again?
You mean repeat myself? Not in the same terms, but here's the three
ways of counting those hours (without a zero hour which _obviously_ does
not exist on a clock). The numbers indicate hollering-pionts:
.....7.....8.....9.....10.....11.....12.....1.....2.....3
(me) 1---> 2---> 3---> 4----> 5----> 6---->
(you) ----->1 ---->2 --->3 ---->4 ---->5 --->6
(blocks) [ 1 ][ 2 ][ 3 ][ 4 ][ 5 ][ 6 ]
Where's the "zero hour?" Where's the practical difference in our
counting/hollering methods?
There isn't any. It's a matter of arbitrary choice.
Hence I said, and correctly so:
CH> > All this is is a difference between when one chooses to say a
CH> number; > at the beginning, or at the end, of each time increment.
CH> No, because you're counting the _numbers_, and I'm counting the
CH> _steps_.
As you see above, both.
CH> > You move your hollering point back half an hour, I'll move mine
CH> forward > half an hour, and we'll both chime off at the same
CH> instant, counting > the hour-blocks in their _middles_, as is
CH> least confusing. (*grin*)
(We come to our common ground on the third line, "(blocks)," above.)
CH> And because you're counting number and not steps, when I finish you'll
CH> have another number to chime off, and you'll sound really funny
CH> singing without backup.
As you see above, that is not the case; we will neither of us sing
alone, as should be.
(Our systems must be mappable one onto the other, and that's probably
the core of this issue for me: WHERE is (_what_ is) the mapping
function, if any exists?)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Harass an agnostic! Burn a question mark in his yard!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 31 Mar 97 11:35:52
EID:b925 227f5c60
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 32f2e85a
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> CH>> Any infinite discrete metric can be mapped on a one-to-one
CH> CH>> correspondance with the integers. Saying that the first step
CH> after CH>> zero is one is a perfectly permissable statement, if a
CH> trifle
CH> CH>> misleading. From zero units to one unit, whatever size a unit
CH> CH>> happens to be. *shrug*
CH> > Does the concept of a minimum-_possible_ "sized" "one" still seem
CH> trifling?
CH> In a discrete system, yes. You pick your scale, and you measure from
CH> that scale. How long is the beach?
(*grin*) "One beach long."
Or, if one uses a nonsubdividable "sand grain," "(x) grains long."
CH> > Would it not be possible to map all of the real numbers -- even the
CH> > decimal fractions-- onto such a line of infinitesimal, but nonzero,
CH> > "units of "one"?"
CH> No. It frankly isn't possible to map the real numbers to the integers.
CH> That's the difference between countable and uncountable infinites.
I've been reading on this. I have to agree with you, as far as I can
_understand_ you....
I just wonder why the concept seems so intuitive, that if there is one
and only one infinite line, made of infinitesimal points, there cannot
be a "number" of any sort that is not a point on the line (provided as
noted that the increments of the line are 'small enough'). I've read
the explanations, and I can't refute them, but I also can't grasp why
the intuitive feeling of the truth of the above refuses to go away.
CH> I can construct a real number A that does not appear anywhere in your
CH> chart, by stating that my number A differs from each number m in
CH> position m. That is, the first value after the decimal point of A
CH> differs from the first value after the decimal point of real number
1,
CH> the second value after the decimal point of A differs from the second
CH> value after the decimal point of real number 2, the nth value after
CH> the decimal point of A differs from the nth value after the decimal
CH> point of real number n, and so on. Since every integer is already
CH> mapped on a one-to-one correspondance with a real number, I can state
CH> unequivocably that A differs from EVERY NUMBER on the chart that
All right, I understand this. However, what you are doing here is
assuming an integer line, then mapping to it. I ask an inverse form of
this, in which after you have demonstrated as above, we take and re-
subdivide the integer line. That is, if we are allowed to re-size the
integer line AFTER your proof, does it still work? or are we, by doing
as I suggest, into an infinite recursion?
CH> Face it, John. Discrete systems can't be mapped onto continuous ones.
CH> No matter how hard you try, there are points always left over.
I'll take this as proven, for the nonce. However, my thought was not to
map a discrete system onto a continuous one, but rather to map a
continuous one onto a discrete one.
Now, granted that it may be legitimate to _try_ to do this, the source
of the drive to do it arises from questioning what system "actual
reality" uses, the discrete or the continuous, and if we pursue this, we
should (imho) find that some (cont.) mathematical truths may not have
actual-reality correlates.
That is, IF 'reality' is inherently discrete, rather than continuous, we
should find that certain concepts arrived at by means of continuous
thinking, do not have 'real' correlates in reality --that the apparent
continuousness of reality is an approximation-in-the-large, of what
happens in the infinitesimality of the small.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... REALITY.SYS corrupted! -- Reboot UNIVERSE (Y/N)?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: CE
|Date: 31 Mar 97 11:53:44
EID:66ee 227f5ea0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 cc210ea2
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > Real math makes sense to real math, you mean. Given alternative
CH> > axioms, other systems may make more sense, and even you would
CH> agree > that some not all math systems are identical. There is
CH> also that > small issue of Godel's little finding.... NO math
CH> system is 100% > internally consistent (has propsitions not
CH> decidable from within the > system), and cannot be.
CH> Goedel's Theorem only states that every math system relies on a set
of
CH> untestable axioms. I don't think this is at any point being disputed.
OK....
CH> However, you seem to be trying to stay within the standard set of
CH> mathematical axioms and still show a flaw. You can't. If you want to
CH> open up that you're stepping outside the standard axioms, then tell
us
CH> which of the normal
CH> axioms you're violating and we'll proceed from there.
Well, what I'm trying to do is translate from "my" system to the
standard set (and/or vice versa), and in order to do that I must find
out if its even possible. It seems not to be, so another question
arises: is this because "my" system does not represent 'reality,' or is
it because the standard system does not? (*grin*) Hence the argument
between math-philosophical (deep axiom-based) stances. Yes, I need to
'start over from scratch' --these contradictions seem to demand it.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... "Who is this who darkens council with words without knowledge?" Job
38
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: counting on a number line
|Date: 31 Mar 97 11:58:45
EID:8f23 227f5f40
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 33b67aae
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> CH>> Is the counter being inconsistent above? I don't use zero
CH> anywhere in CH>> the problem, and yet by your reckoning, I'm still
CH> off. What's 2+6, CH>> John?
CH> > 8, of course. But you _didn't_ use _my_ reckoning; you started
CH> > counting six more while ON the end block of the _2_, not on the
CH> first > block of the 6, which if you had, would give you the right
CH> answer.
CH> John, I copied your bloody graphics and changed the number line a bit.
CH> Go back and look at your originals and see for yourself.
I recall what was shown. You started counting the second part of the
problem while still standing on the end of the first part. That is, you
took a 2 (*)(*), and added six, but you did not complete the 2 before
you started with the 6. I merely objected to that, because you claimed
you were using my own system to show the contradiction, and you simply
had NOT used my own system. (IOW, your disproof failed because you
misused the system in the first place.)
CH> _itself_, which > seeks an answer of "zero," but since there IS
NO
CH> 'zero' in the system, > it can't come up with that answer. The
CH> best it can do is "none."
CH> John, none is zero. If you say that none are left, you're saying zero
CH> is left. You're still counting your zero-block.
Not _I_, said the Little Red Hen....
"None" is, as I understand, a corruption of "not one." It may imply,
but does not require, an expression for the state of absence that is
positive-definite. That is, it's possible to express absence-of-a-thing
without manufacturing a new thing with which to name the condition.
"None" and "zero" are subtly different concepts. "None" is not as
easily converted into yet another 'thing' ("a zero").
CH> > If the incorrect version of my counting (adding) method you
CH> exampled > above is what you base this on, then sure. But if
CH> you're going to > argue against someone's position, it behooves
CH> you to _correctly_
CH> > represent that position, eh? (IOW, to add effect, adding 2 +
6
CH> does > not _start_ the process of adding the two numbers, with the
CH> _second_ > number. It starts with the first number.
CH> I started using your graphics, John. How is that failing to represent
CH> you accurately?
You must have either misunderstood my graphics, or lost the distinction
when you changed the line (as you note).
I repeat quick:
2 + 6 = 8
(*) (*)
(*) (*) (*) (*) (*) (*)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
You missed my point, and you saw 2 + 6 as:
(*) (*)
(*) (*) (*) (*) (*) (*)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
IOW, you counted "1, 2," and then instead of _starting_ your count of
the _next_ six ON the first unit _of_ the _next_ six (which would be the
3 block, not the 2 block), you tried to start counting six while you
were still standing on the 2.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Copenhagenists don't do it unless somebody's watching.
--- PPoint 2.00
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SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 12:24:10
EID:0452 227f6300
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 a3a2d615
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> CH>> By your method:
CH> CH>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
CH> CH>> 1 2 3 4 5 6
CH> CH>> *---------*
CH> CH>> Does 2+6=7 John?
CH> > As noted in another message, you have _misrepresented_ my method
CH> of > adding. Please see that message. However, in short here:
CH> > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
CH> > *-%
CH> > *---------%
CH> > 1 2 (plus)
CH> > 1 2 3 4 5 6 (answer: I'm ON the 8, you see....)
CH> John, I copied your graphics and moved the numberline. Now you're not
CH> even yourepresenting your own theorems right.
(?) I can't see _how_....
That's just the way I count discrete things in the system.
To give a child to count eight things in two groups (2, then 6), you
hand him one (he says "one"), you hand him another (he says "two"), then
you go have milk and cookies, and come back, whereupon handing him
another he _doesn't_ say "two"; he says "three."
Same if you lay them on the floor in a line (without a 'zero thing').
He puts a finger on 1, then on 2, you both go get milk and cookies, then
come back and say now do six more, and he has enough sense not to put
his finger down on the 2 thing (he's done with that count, and is
starting another).
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 12:30:31
EID:0452 227f63c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 336956ff
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> CH>> > "Fencepost problem?" Clarify, please? I've never seen
CH> that
CH> CH>> It's a term used in computer science and mathematics for a
CH> problem in CH>> which the right answer is actually one less or one
CH> greater than the CH>> "obvious" solution.
CH> > Aha. I suspected as much.
CH> > There's an existing form of my argument? (*grin*)
CH> No, your argument is a case of the fencepost problem. That is, you're
CH> always off by one because you fail to count properly. You're trying
to
CH> count _elements_. You don't. You count _transitions_. The statement
Then this is exactly the crossover area between discrete and continuous.
the fenceposts represent the continuous, and the fence between posts
represent the discrete.
CH> 6-2=4 says that I must make two transition (6->5, 5->4) to arrive at
4
CH> down from 6, but there are three numbers from 4-6 inclusive (4, 5, 6).
Yes. Conway makes this clear, in his "Book of Numbers" which I finally
got, but in the case of my system, the issue is ancillary. Watch:
To _count_ six take-away four, I do more steps:
First I find the zero POINT (there is no zero object).
next I count up six, starting ON the #1 and ending ON the #6.
Then I count back down two, (consistently, starting ON the first to be
counted down (the #6), and ending ON the last (the #5 in this case)).
Then I take them out of the system. I have some objects left between
where I am now, and the zero POINT; I count them: 1, 2, 3, 4. I had
four left. (This is much more graphically easy to see by actually doing
it with something --marbles for example.)
No conflict, and no "zero marble."
CH> (If you > say they're the same line, you just eliminated your zero
CH> block, so I > can't see why you'd say _that_....
CH> No, the numberline goes infinitely in either direction, and 0 is its
CH> midpoint (of course, one this is logically specious; an
CH> infinitely-long line can't be said to have a midpoint without an
CH> abolute reference external to it, but for now I'll grant that external
(In the case of a number line, that external reference is YOU (or me),
standing there looking at the infinite, smooth, unlabelled line and
saying "today, for the hell of it, I divide this line HERE!" and putting
an infinitesimal fingertip anywhere we like. Afterward, we have a "zero
point." The next thing we must decide is how far along the line from
there we will make a second mark and call it "one unit," then flip that
unit around the zero point and call it "one reverse unit.")
(We do not _require_ the use of that unit a third time, to "widen out"
our zero POINT so that it is the same length as the two units now in
place. We can DO it, but it seems unnecessary.)
CH> > You're surely not suggesting you put it in the "middle of the
CH> zero > block," are you? leaving half a zero block on either side
CH> of the > dividing line?
CH> > (*chuckle*)
CH> That is, essentially, exactly what I'm talking about. Except that
CH> (1/2)*0 is still 0, and so is (-1/2)*0.
I find that both arbitrary and illogical. Sorry. It's mathematical, I
suppose, but it sure ain't intuitively obvious. To do this, in the
context of my above numberline-constructing sequence, you'd _need_ to
emplace that third ("widening-out the zero point") unit.
CH> CH>> In essence, you can and do turn around in place. And the zero
CH> year CH>> isn't an anomaly.
CH> > If you turn around in place, You're still standing on
CH> Midsummer's Day > of the "zero year," now, aren't you?
CH> Yes.
I hope you see the unreality of dividing a 'zero block' zero year into
two half-zero half-blocks.... If it's [blocks] we're talking, and
they're not subdividable (are discrete; distinct), IF you emplace a zero
POINT in the line of _[blocks]_, AND you have a "zero block," you have
no choice but to place that zero POINT at one side OR the other, of the
block, not in the _middle_. A [block] _has no middle_, if treated as an
infinitesimal nonsubdividable unit. Hence your problem of having both a
zero [block] _and_ a zero POINT. "Which side of the block is the zero
point on?"
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: CASH ONLY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:02:56
EID:4869 227f6840
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 aac21dba
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > I prefer "no black marbles."
CH> > You're still mixing things and abstractions.
CH> > If you're "subtracting," you need your 'grey marble,' but if
CH> you're > _looking_at_marbles_, there are obviously six still
CH> sitting there.
CH> > Use only the black ones and your zero grey:
CH> > (0) (1) (2) (3) (4) (5)
CH> > 5 - 5 = ?
CH> > = one marble (the grey one).
CH> And in this case, you've misrepresented the case. I clearly see six
CH> marbles there, one grey and five black. Six marbles minus five black
CH> marbles equals 1 marble, the gray one. Now, if you only want the five
CH> black ones, which happen to be labeled 1 through 5, and remove them
CH> all, then you have no marbles left. Zero marbles remaining.
Now YOU are misrepresenting the (your) case. In your system, it is the
presence of the grey marble that _enables_you_to_say_ you 'have' zero
marbles left. If you _only_ had five black ones (no grey one), you'd
not be able to use the zero marble (so you could say "zero"), and you'd
be in my camp instead.... (*grin*)
CH> You made a big deal of me screwing up your arguments because I used
CH> your graphics. Now please do us the courtesy of not screwing up ours
CH> through misrepresentation.
See above? Are we both perhaps twisting things a bit?
I suspect that there are some _legitimate_ things being claimed by both
of us. It is that very juxtaposition that is interesting me. IF there
were absolutely no way at all to defend my position, I assure you I
would NOT be trying to. However, it is obvious that our race (human)
got along for literally tens of thousands of years without a "zero
marble," yet counted and added and subtracted things quite handily, so
merely from that perspective there must be some relatively powerful
aspects to my argument, just as there are for yours.
CH> > You're stuck because you were programmed with a "number line"
CH> that's > useful to you, and you're unwilling to bend a little.
CH> (*grin*)
CH> Again, if you want to deny some of the fundamenal axioms involving
CH> mathematics, that's fine. But please at least admit that you're doing
CH> so. That way, I can stop trying to waste my time showing that you're
CH> an idiot, because you will have admitted it to me. Thank you.
Oh? You would not be kind enough to stop wasting your time showing that
I'm using a different perspective, a modified --even outdated-- system,
instead of being "an idiot?" How kind of you, sir. (*not*)
Just how is _questioning_ (I have not _denied_) axioms of math,
equivalent to being an "idiot?"
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: brawley fails math
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:12:58
EID:e989 227f6980
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 9b99c02e
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > The 'year zero' argument arose from the "when is the Millennium
CH> Party > properly celebrated?" issue.
CH> > The answer is the night of Dec.31,2000/Jan.1,2001.
CH> > The reason is that "Chronologers admit no year zero
CH> > between 1 BC and AD 1." [Encyc.Brit., 1982; 4:580a]
CH> Chronologers are not mathematicians.
Never said they were. Nor was the original problem (the night of the M-
party) a "mathematical" one; it was about years (chronology).
CH> Again, chronologers are not mathematicians. If you attempt to reckon
CH> numbers as they are, you'll be off by one in just about every case you
CH> care to
CH> mention, unless you modify your system as you have, so now you're off
CH> by one in every other case.
(*chuckle*) It's been both fun and informative. Thank you.
CH> By including year zero, and counting the _steps_ and not the
CH> _elements_, you bypass both sets of problems.
By excluding "year zero," and counting the elements, you arrive at one
of the two Parties.... Why not enjoy both the right one AND the wrong
one? (*grin*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:21:57
EID:0452 227f6aa0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 7c8156b6
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > I grant formal validity to what you're saying, but it's a
CH> special case, > in the sense that there can't sanely be anything
CH> _smaller_than_zero_. > (!) "Smaller than zero?" Puh-leeze....
CH> ;)
CH> John, you're mixing absolutes and positions again. Zero is the
CH> smallest absolute number, because all absolute numbers are positive.
CH> -infinity is the smallest positional number, in the sense of it being
CH> "furthest down" on the number line.
I said I _granted_ formal validity. It seemed to me that _Roger_ was
mixing up the meanings of -infinity and 1/infinity. I'm an old
electronics type; I see no difference between plus and minus except as
labels. I am also a former student of Zen, in which we find the concept
of counterintuitive unions of opposites. _Opposites_, not "sizes." In
both those senses, there is just as "much" negativeness as positiveness;
both are _increasing_ 'amounts,' which go away in both directions from
"zero" ("neutral"). IYOW, the decision about which is "furthest down"
is arbitrary. +infinity is just as "far down" the number line in the
positive direction as -infinity is in the negative direction.
CH> But it is. You're confusing -infinity and 1/infinity.
_I_ was not. I was quite clear on it. The concept of "smallness" is
not related to negativeness except by convention. In fact, we _usually_
think of small as being closest to zero, which -infinity is obviously
not.
CH> > Roger, one of the things I learned, that was very useful to me
CH> in > understanding this sort of thing, occurred the day I found
CH> out that in > electronics, if you switched ALL the plus signs with
CH> all the minus > signs, radios and TVs would still work just fine
CH> and dandy.
CH> Except that you'd have to reverse the encoding sequences on a lot of
CH> receivers.
(*grin*) But the things-in-themselves would all still work. An
electron doesn't care whether you call it + or -, so long as you reverse
ALL the +es and -es.
CH> > That is, there is no REAL difference between two ranges, BOTH
of
CH> them > going away from zero in opposite directions, except the
CH> labels stuck on > them. Switching the labels has NO effect
CH> whatsoever on what the ranges > ARE.
CH> -4 is smaller in magnitude than -5, but greater in value. Do you
CH> understand that distinction?
I do; and I call it arbitrary:
CH> where you think ONLY of > the HEAT as decreasing (increasing)
CH> without granting that the COLD is > INcreasing (decreasing).
CH> The heat decreases, the cold increases. The magnitude of the value,
as
CH> it is measured from zero, decreases while its value increases.
And in the reverse direction? Simply switch your system's label
totally, and even the meanings of magnitude and value invert.
CH> > Two increments of negativeness is a LARGER amount of
CH> negativeness, not > a _smaller_ amount of negativeness. That
CH> should be obvious.
CH> -1 + -1 = -2. The magnitude increases, the value decreases. Do you
CH> understand this fundmental difference? YOu are attempting to equate
CH> the two, and they aren't the same.
I understand you. I'm not trying to _equate_ them; I'm trying to show
that they are _invertable_, so long as the inversion is 'perfect.'
All I'm trying to show here is the arbitrariness of our decision about
"which direction to look." There is no absolute reference for which is
the "right" way to look, so far as I can tell. Only thermodynamics
contains a 'unidirectional arrow,' but even there, the arrow is
conceptual/experiential; it isn't in the _math_. (There's no
mathematical reason why an egg can't "un-break" and reassemble; we just
don't ever see that happening.)
Moreover, even the equations of relativity and quantum mechanics can be
inverted WRT sign, and sensible (if amazing) answers can come out --in
fact, consider the positron, which was a prediction made with that very
time-symmetrical aspect of the math....)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:38:12
EID:0452 227f6cc0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 b0105790
On 29 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> JB>> The problem seems to arise only when crossing that 'zero
CH> marble.' RH>> Yes.
CH> > I have noticed that a similar problem occurs when one emplaces
CH> > _another_ "zero block" --in the decimal system, at "ten."
CH> The problem occurs everywhere.
CH> The number of blocks between X and X+N, inclusive of endpoints, is
CH> always X-N+1. That is, was, and always shall be the case.
Sounds almost Religious, eh? (*grin*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: infinitesimals
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:38:56
EID:933f 227f6cc0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 cba90948
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 333dcec2
On 30 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
-> On 26 Mar 97 03:59:24, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> I play pool. Sometimes even well. What is it that I do not
JB> understand?
DC> It's the chalk interfacing with the two balls, John. The extra
DC> interfence makes things happen that "can't".
JB> You talkin' about putting 'english' on the cue ball?
DC> Only partially, John. 2 balls react with each other and
DC> English does some neat things. However, make a chalk
DC> interference point between then and they will do even
DC> stranger things.
DC> I've got a book around here that describes it. I'll see if
DC> I can dig it out of the storage boxes and give you an ISBN
DC> after the spring shovel-out.
yOk, I'd like to see that....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:39:37
EID:52a4 227f6ce0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 410218c7
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 333dd248
On 30 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
-> On 26 Mar 97 04:00:24, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
RM> Actually, half of zero is -136.5.
RM> Celcius, that is.
JB> Hmm.... I thought that was half the freezing point of water....?
DC> You thought wrong again, John. Can you see why you are in
DC> error, yet again?
JB> No. 2x136.5=273 --the difference between "absolute zero" (Kelvin) and
DC> Water freezes at ZERO degrees Celcius, John. What's 1/2 of ZERO.
JB> "zero" degrees Celsius, the freezing point of water. What's erroneous
JB> about that, quibbler?
DC> It's up to you to figure out why you are wrong.
In an analogy with TWO separate ZERO POINTS? Hah!
I wouldn't even care to try. I have enough to deal with, just
attempting to disapprise you poor misled acolytes of the existence of
ONE zero....
(*chuckle*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
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SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Our Daily Quantum Psychodrama
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:41:57
EID:14a7 227f6d20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 a19e2374
REPLY: 1:3652/1 333E1DA1
On 29 Mar 97, Jason Harmon wrote:
JH> I just wanted to get sued too. Brawley didn't even respond. :-<
JB> It was noted by some that if I didn't bother to answer, the issue
JB> would "go away by itself."
JB> *HAW!* Fat chance.
JH> We're still talking about TANKS and NOODLES and HOPPERS in here.
JH> What made you think we could forgot your little screams of
JH> indignation so easily?
JH> But I forgot, it kept itself going because YOU let it continue.
JH> Uh-huh.
LET it? _Let_ it? I drop the occasional re-irritator in here, to keep
it going, yes. The publicity's useful on occasion.
JB> So, I ignore LOTS of these little baitless hooks. Say something
JB> interesting instead, and I might react.
JH> Um...you reacted now.
Something 'interesting' was said: that a message was entered, designed
to get a reaction, didn't get one, and the _fact that it didn't_ was
enough to get commented upon.
(*guffaw!*)
JH> Anyway, would you believe me if I said I really had no interest
in
JH> your comments at all? To quote Don Martin, I wrote this for the
I tend to believe evidence rather than rhetoric. Like when an
antitheist is calling himself an 'atheist,' I'd believe you had no
interest if you _displayed_ no interest --by not commenting at all.
JH> entertainment of myself and those in the gallery. If you chose to
JH> respond, it would be a bonus.
BO-nus point!
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... GOVERN.SYS corrupted; reboot the suckers out? (Y/N)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:47:56
EID:404d 227f6de0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 7831a1fc
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 ee29b012
On 30 Mar 97, Marilyn Burge wrote:
RC> JB>> Zero is either a place-holder ('nothing here', as in "1024"),
RC> That would be the numeral "0" (like the other numerals, a symbol).
MB> WhatEVER is Brawley talking about!!?? Zero IS a number in the
MB> above example. It tells us there are zero hundreds in the
MB> value being described!
JB> Zero's a place-holder.
RC> He's mistaken,
MB> Why am I not surprised?
JB> Perhaps surprise has become alien to you?
MB> No, John. Common sense has become alien to YOU.
Thank the Powers for _that_!
"Common sense" says that tables and bowling balls and such are "solid,"
too, but they're in reality 99.999 % empty space.
I can easily do without "common sense," thank you, since it's most often
_wrong_.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Talk is cheap (supply exceeds demand).
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Terrifying Girl Scouts!
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:50:20
EID:57c0 227f6e40
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 a5799ce9
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2c8d351d
On 30 Mar 97, Fredric Rice wrote:
> dr> something, described his "battle" with "angels." This is a
> dr> CLASSIC example of schizophrenia. Dopamine might help such
> dr> an individual.
> FR> Stuart Harris was another prime example of this. He believed that
> FR> either "angels" or aliens from another planet beamed the design for
a
> FR> perpetual motion machine into his head while he was sleeping.
> Are you aware of anyone who's tried to build that thing and got it to
> work? I still have the magnets and the ramp, and that much works just
FR> Slip back into your coma, John.
Hey, C'mon, Fred; it was just a _question_.
(Which you didn't answer....)
How extensive are your records on the Stuart Harris episode?
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... WOMBAT: Waste Of Money, Bandwidth, And Time
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Time to Report!
|Date: 31 Mar 97 15:41:08
EID:fa47 227f7d20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 1e0198d5
REPLY: 1:3603/210 5237f073
On 27 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> So it's time for you to report to the Marble Bureau, and they
RC> ask you, "Mr. Brawley! How many marbles do you have left?"
RC> Do you tell them that their question is meaningless just because
RC> you lost ALL your marbles? "But, Mr. Head Marble Counter, Sir,
RC> I don't _have_ any marbles left!"
RC> "You have zero marbles?"
RC> "Now, I didn't say that! It's impossible to have zero of anything."
RC> "OK, it's clear you have none of them remaining. On your way."
JB> That's the way of it!
JB> Glad you seem finally to understand....
RC> "I can't have sodium cloride!" "You have salt, then?" "Yeah, that's
RC> it!"
Category error.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Join the National Organization for Simple Honesty, Integrity, and Truth
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 31 Mar 97 15:41:37
EID:336b 227f7d20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 f51f6e04
REPLY: 1:123/67 333cd726
On 29 Mar 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> DC>> The bible also says that Pi=3.0
JS> Hmmm...don't recall seeing Pi in the Bible anywhere.
SS> [Bait Boy, look the other way, you won't understand]
Nah. I'll look; I might not comment....
SS> I'll type real slow so that you can read it, Idiot.
SS> pi = The ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle.
SS> In your bible:
SS> 1KI 7:23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring
SS> ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of
SS> thirty
SS> cubits to measure around it. [24] Below the rim, gourds encircled
SS> it--ten to a cubit. The gourds were cast in two rows in one piece with
SS> the Sea.
SS> We know that pi= 3.14159...
SS> The Sea of cast metat measurments are in ERROR by 1.4149 cubits.
SS> End of lesson.
Yeah, Shermie; you're right: not worthy of comment.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Not all questions worth asking have answers...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Sitesight
|Date: 01 Apr 97 09:12:47
EID:262a 22814980
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 83f65e44
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 333ede53
On 30 Mar 97, Judith Bandsma wrote:
-=> John complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
JB> Thanks, dear; I'll get a round TUIT and look one day soon.
JB> Just DON'T click on the red button.
Can't CLICK anyway; I use a DOS websurfer --mouseless, and graphical
only when I need it to be.
(Although the cursor is _usually_ on the hotlink, I always navigate by
the contents of the HREF: line, and use the ENTER key.)
I'll install WinDoze the day hell freezes over. (*g*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Reality-ometer: [......../] .....eeeee-YES!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Holysmoke Web Site
|Date: 01 Apr 97 11:29:45
EID:2bb5 22815ba0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 fcd69752
REPLY: 1:123/67 333f8883
On 31 Mar 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> 04 Jan 80 12:37, quoting Dan Ceppa to Shelby Sherman:
SS> SS>> I saw the site for the first time today. Thanks for giving the
SS> SS>> Bait Shop such prominent exposure. Have Brawley's team of
SS> SS>> attorneys contacted you yet?
DC> My guess is that there were ZERO lawyers contacting her
DC> because of Brawley.
SS> Actually, I'm surprised that Brawley is still around. You'd think
SS> that a nutcase like him would be chasing a spaceship behind a comet
or
SS> something.
"I'm not really a nutcase; I just play one on electronic media."
(A fact that many of you have yet to catch on to.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: a matter of marbles
|Date: 02 Apr 97 08:17:17
EID:c048 22824220
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 cc196089
REPLY: 1:3603/210 54a6f797
On 31 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> Hello, Idiot!
----------------terminated for insult-------
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Joan of Arc is alive and medium well.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: idiot
|Date: 02 Apr 97 08:19:08
EID:ceb6 22824260
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 f2e1d814
REPLY: 1:3603/210 54a6f79a
If you don't want to get responses, why write to me?
On 31 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> Just how lazy are you today, Idiot?
-----------terminated for insult-------
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Facts do not support Egos; they support Ideas.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Popper & Metaphysics.
|Date: 02 Apr 97 08:21:33
EID:95eb 228242a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 cc559c9c
REPLY: 1:3603/210 54a6f7a2
On 31 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> with: Laurie Appleton
JB> Interestingly, there are a rare few people on these echoes
JB> who, over the years, have proved themselves unworthy of my
JB> effort to seem polite and civilized. _You_ are one of them.
JB> Your lies, deceits, selective quotes, ignorance and willfull
JB> dis-education of the reading public makes you a target
JB> for as much approbation, denigration and rejection as it's
JB> possible to heap upon you.
RC> You're headed in that direction yurself, John, with your willful
RC> misuse and abuse of math terms -- though at the moment it seems
There is a difference between argument for the sake of argument or
interest (me) and purposeful lying (Appleton) in service to a
nonfalsifiable "Supreme" entity. No comparison.
JB> Religious Liars such as you need to be _excised_; mere
JB> _exposure_ of your inveterate, repeated lies has no
JB> effect upon you. I think you're not _sane_, Appleton;
JB> your religious cultist paradigm has twisted your reason
JB> into knots.
RC> That's pretty close to what many people here think of YOU, John,
RC> when it comes to your bizarre religio-metaphysical obsession
RC> on the subject of zero, tetrahedrashit, and counting in general.
Well, Robert, this IS Holy_Smoke echo, after all....
You enjoy it; I enjoy it; _I_ don't take it seriously.
RC> Which is why I suggested over in PHYSICS that if you want real
RC> help for your problems, then you should consult a psychologist
RC> or psychiatrist.
Which was offtopic, irrelevant, and ignorant of you....
RC> Fundy and Meta-fundy traits are very similar.
Doubtless they are. Cults and religions also share some common factors.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Copenhagenists don't do it unless somebody's watching.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: John Brawley
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Site
|Date: 02 Apr 97 10:06:28
EID:c900 228250c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 dd6821cf
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
I gotta tell ya' one thing in all seriousness, tho:
It was quite educational to see real faces attached to all these names
we are so familiar with. You have done a very GOOD thing, in that
seeing real people, to mentally attach to the names, makes a
(*suddenly*) powerful statement about how casually we treat text-only
versions of those people. The sense of reality experienced by cruising
your "rogue's gallery" causes major changes in one's awareness, that
these are real people with real faces instead of faceless typewriters
with fuzzy minds behind them.
(You defeat "BBS anonymity" and re-personalize our humanity. Perhaps I
should have sent you a less temporally disjointed picture.)
It is a very _good_ thing that you have done.
I, for one, could not in a million years have 'seen' Shelby Sherman in a
flowered Hawaiian shirt! Or Styx as a handsome youth. "Hector
Plasmic," however, looks _just_ right....
Excellent work, Judith. Unfortunately, _your_ own image is a bit too
muddied by the electricity, for one to obtain a decent grasp of your
actual physical loveliness....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Christianity: Music by God; Lyrics by Joshua ben-Joseph.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: John Brawley
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: CE
|Date: 02 Apr 97 10:56:43
EID:3366 22825700
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 bf28753d
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 333fec28
On 30 Mar 97, John Musselwhite wrote:
SA> ie, ... 3 BCE, 2 BCE, 1 BCE, 0, 1 CE, 2 CE, 3 CE ...
SA> Right? Because 0 is always neither positive nor negative?
SA> Or am I that mathematically stunted?
JM> The problem is that in this case "0" doesn't exist. We are
JM> discussing a point in time rather than the absence of a point
JM> in time. There is one side or the other, but never a point when
JM> neither side "isn't".
SA> Right, but look again at Robert's statement - even if they DID know
SA> about the concept of zero back then, they shouldn't have named the
SA> year "0 AD". And if we changed it now, it wouldn't be "0 CE",
JM> If you had a child is there a point where would you say it is
JM> "zero" years old? If so, where would that be?
You made the point earlier; there are fractions of "1" not fractions of
"0." However, this argument is far more widespread than you think. It
_is_ legitimate, in a certain DISCRETE sense (using years as complete
entities), to say that a six-month-old is "zero years old." (It's true,
he is no YEARS old, provided we exclude fractions.)
But otherwise, yes, the argument is "dumb" since references seem to
agree that chronologists do not admit of the existence of a "year zero."
(See Encyclopaedia Britannica, for example.)
Hence, under standard chronologists' usage, the "Millennium Party" will
be the night of Dec. 31st, 2000.
.....provided there's anybody left to party, after millennium fever has
taken its cultish toll, that is. (*grin*)
SA> something. :) It's got to be better than some American in an
SA> article someone posted here saying the entire world should start
SA> counting dates from the American Revolution. That's as bad as the
SA> CURRENT system.
JM> Some have suggested 1945 as the year the next era should begin,
JM> but I don't think it has yet.
I think it should be re-numbered from the time-point of the publishing
of the first paper on Quantum Mechanics....
JM> I predict that within the next five-seven years the first true
JM> anti-agathic (anti-aging/death) drugs will appear on the
JM> market, followed by an exodus of people off-planet within ten
JM> years of that. The next era will be "ad astra" (to the stars)
JM> or as Heinlein predicted, "Diaspora", but it will mark the year
JM> people leave this planet permanently. Once it happens, ask
JM> yourself if you're in the zeroth or the first year.
(*chuckle*) Dreamer.
But what a pleasant dream it is....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: 'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:43:21
EID:aeee 22834d60
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 ce3c071b
On 01 Apr 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Richard Smith <=-
JB> Only 'zero' is an absence-of indicator, as "athiesm" is an indicator
JB> of absence of theism (pro -OR- con).
RH>
RH> Gone a week and nothing has changed.
Loyalty; perseverance; *grin*.
RH> John, all the numbers are symbols which answer the question
RH> "how many?"
I simplistically agree, but point out that the answer "none," (or
"zero"), to the question "how many?" is subtly different: in one sense,
it's an answer; in another sense, it's simply a ludicrous question. (If
there aren't any, why would anyone ask how many there are? *grin*)
RH> That includes zero (none), 1 (one), 2 (two) etc.
RH> Why does this cause you so much grief?
It doesn't. I enjoy the 'discussion.' (Perhaps my DA position causes
_others_ some 'grief,' but it causes me little if any.)
Playing "devil's advocate" is an art, and an educational exercise.
I've found out things, and have located oddities in both systems.
It's been said that a discrete system cannot be mapped to a continuous
system, and I find that interesting ("WHY not?; T-verse does it"). The
discussion of a zero-less 'number line' (object row) is a microcosm of
that very proposition.
Of course also, T-verse has no inherent zero (that which could have been
called "zero" vanished in the uttermost beginning of the 'origin
sequence'), so although we use 'regular math' _with_ its zero, to meddle
with it, I have to remember there's no fundamental "zero" IN it; it is
all "positive" --a positive beingness, as opposed to a beingness with
both positive reality and negative reality. ("Negative reality?" *g*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Mormonism: Music by God; Lyrics by Joe Smith.
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:53:41
EID:b925 22834ea0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 47f5fedf
On 30 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > Carefully read his line. There are _two_ questions there. I
CH> answered > the lastmost. Were I to answer the first, it'd be "no
CH> black marbles," > avoiding "zero black marbles" just as you say.
CH> Is zero one of the > black ones? No. Is it one of the white
CH> ones? No. Is it _present_? > It is in some people's twisted
CH> Even the discrete number line has a zero point.
I FULLY, _absolutely_, unquestionably AGREE! (Thank Pete you're willing
to speak of that....)
That's the VERY point of contact; the very core of my continuing 'devils
advocate' position: that zero POINT you speak of exists where -1 and +1
discrete/distinct units 'touch' but do not overlap; it is no-width,
barely more than an idea of itself. It has no "reality" other than
being the place where two closest discrete units have the property that
neither is part of the other. It is the very _essence_ of a
"noncoalescence Rule." It (the no-width zero "point") is that which
must be said to exist, even though it does NOT 'really' exist, between
two closest discrete units.
CH> > Correct, in _my_ version. But there'd be 5 white AND one 'grey'
CH> > ("zero") marble left, in his.
CH> Which is six. 11-5=6. That's still internally consistent. If you're
CH> counting the fact that they're marbles, then thre are 11 marbles. It
Apart from the oddity of saying "counting the fact that" (how do you
count a fact?), that's exactly right. Nonsubdividable units, which in
principle are what children "count" are discrete, distinct, whole units.
CH> Subtraction of a single element involves a process:
CH> 1) remove one element
CH> 2) Advance the pointer to the next element
CH> 3) Count off "one"
CH> What is being counted is not the elements, but the number of times the
CH> pointer moves. The answer to the subtraction problem is equal to the
CH> value to which the pointer is currently referencing.
Yes, that's the case. Conway says it ("The Book of Numbers"), Robert
says it, you say it; I agree with it. However, that is a continuous-
system action (your step forward is a 'continuous,' not a discrete,
move). Counting the _objects_ (units; distinct points; geometric
infinitesimals; integers, etc.) does not give the same answers.
It seems we are (at least I am) exploring by means of discussion WHY it
seems to be true that as you noted, a continuous math and a discrete
math don't want to sleep together at all; they don't "map" perfectly.
I am exploring that because my geo-topological object "Tetrahedraverse"
DOES accomplish it in a manner of speaking, albeit by 'embedding'
continuousness in discrete increments of a geometric object (in "dmin"-
sized two-point linesegments).
Now, if we were "counting" my way, up and down a zero-less line of
discrete units, we would be counting the _units_ (as is sensible to
children), we would do it slightly differently:
CH> Subtraction of a single element involves a process:
CH> 1) remove one element
CH> 2) Advance the pointer to the next element
CH> 3) Count off "one"
1) Find the zero POINT (between +1 & -1; there is no zero unit)
1) Count the first group (say, the 6 in '6 - 2 = 4')
2) Count the second group, _backwards_, (2)
3) Remove that group.
4) Count the remaining, (4) either backwards to the "zero point"
or by starting over at the zero point and stopping at the gap
where the two are now missing.
CH> Look at your line again.
(*chuckle*) That's not MY line.... Mine has no "[0]" in it.
That line is the 'standard' line.
CH> [-5][-4][-3][-2][-1][0][+1][+2][+3][+4][+5]
CH> Start at 5. Subtract five. That means that you will remove one
Already we're off into error. I must _start_ at the zero point (which,
in this line, doesn't exist as such --there are two of them in the above
line, one befo.... (go to graphics) :
[ -2 ] [ -1 ] [ 0 ] [ +1 ] [ +2 ]
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
-2 -1 0 0 +1 +2
IOW, I _start_ (on MY line, not yours) AT the zero point, on whichever
of the two units, +1 or -1, that the formula demands. In the case of:
+6 - +2 = +4, that is the +1 unit. I count UP, using the unit I'm ON as
the #1 unit, and stopping ON the #6 unit. Then I count back down two,
still starting ON the unit I count first, and remove the two as I count
them off. I then either return to the zero point and count up to the
now-present gap still starting and ending ON the counted unit, or start
counting the remainder backwards to the stopping point (the no-width
zero wall), and I get "4," the proper answer either way.
CH> element, advance your pointer down one, and count off. When you count
CH> off five
CH> times, you will have shifted your pointer from +5 to +4, then from +4
CH> to _3, then from +3 to +2, then from +2 to +1, then from +1 to 0. The
CH> answer to 5-5 is 0, John. Your pointer is pointing at the grey marble
CH> which
CH> references zero in this model.
I fully agree, since you are using the standard model (gradeschool
'number line.' My evolving system, without a zero unit, also works.
(IOW, if all you're doing is saying "the standard way works," I have
never disputed that; I have on the other hand proposed that it is not
the ONLY system that works, and tried to find out why a fundamentally
different (discrete versus continuous) system seems to work also,
without requiring a 'zero' that is a mere ludicrosity in that system.
CH> > (A) In the "number line," between any two neighbor
CH> (dimensionless) > points there are an infinite number of points.
CH> (And between any two of > those, an infinite number, and between
CH> any two of THOSE....(etc. ad > infinitum).)
CH> > (B) In the discrete line of points, between any two neighbor
CH> > (dimensionless) points there are NO, NONE, NOT ANY points.
CH> > It's that simple. 100% of this thread's argument seems to arise
CH> from > one guy trying to think in one system while the other guy
CH> is thinking > in the OTHER system.
CH> No, it's that one guy is trying to call the two systems identical, and
CH> the rest of us are saying that he first guy is full of shit.
I don't recall ever having said that the two systems were _identical_.
Can you point to any message in this thread in which I said that?
I probably _have_ called them "equivalent" in the sense that simple
counting (adding; subtracting) can be done in either system, with the
correct answer showing up (as above, for example).
The systems are not _identical_, and I have not said so. There _does_
appear to be a "fusion" possible between them, where both systems can be
laid side-by side and seen to be complements of each other, as (again)
below:
*Discrete*--------------------------------
[ -3 ] [ -2 ] [ -1 ] [ +1 ] [ +2 ] [ +3 ]
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ <--'fusion'
-3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3
*Continuous*-------------------------------
This is so simple to see, that I can't figure out why you're arguing
against it....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 03 Apr 97 10:38:42
EID:0452 228354c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 a2d6393a
On 01 Apr 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D]
CH> > 2BCE 1BCE "0year" 1CE 2CE 3CE
CH> > -2 -1 0 0 1 2 3 (??)
CH> > Where does the zero POINT belong?
CH> Because you're dealing with a discrete system, the whole year IS the
CH> point.
That is 100% correct; so why are we arguing about it?
The discrete and continuous systems are inherently incompatible; the
above example displays that incompatibility, BUT they are fusable, in
pretty much the same sense that quantum mechanics 'fuses' wave and
particle: there is some mysterious "crossover function" that happens,
yet it remains true that one cannot speak or calculate in one system
while simultaneously doing so in the other: the no-width 'touch points'
_between_ discrete, nonsubdividable units in the discrete system ARE the
no-width "numbers" in the continuous one.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Reality-ometer: [\...|.../] UH - oh...!
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: ad hominem
|Date: 03 Apr 97 10:43:49
EID:516d 22835560
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 3de90776
REPLY: 1:3603/210 547a5fa7
On 01 Apr 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
JB> ... "I believe _because_ it is absurd." --Tertullian
RC> Ah, your hero? :-)
(*ROFL!*)
Hardly. That's just a thought-provoking tagline. I have many.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Brawley's amazing skill
|Date: 03 Apr 97 10:45:34
EID:b9c7 228355a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d3979455
REPLY: 1:3603/210 547a5fa8
On 01 Apr 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> JB>> 1/100 of what Conway says in the whole book, but I would
RC> JB>> also claim that where Conway touches on concepts pertinent
RC> JB>> to the image of T-verse, I _do_ understand what he says.
PD> This is a fantastic ability you have, John ... to be able
JB> That which we specialize in, we recognize, even when it's
JB> buried in the midst of a whole LOT of things we are NOT
JB> familiar with.
RC> Peter makes better sense than you do, because -- in the context
RC> of mathematics -- for the understanding of one thing, you generally
RC> need to understand several basic foundational things beforehand.
That is true of most areas of knowledge. What you fail to do, Robert,
is distinguish between _understanding_ and _argument_ from an unpopular
position.
JB> you would not be able to recognize the face of your own child
JB> peering out of a crowd of a few hundred unfamiliar faces.
RC> The problem here, John, is that you "recognize" your tetrahedrashit
RC> child's "face" in a few rocks on Mars, hardly a crowd of faces.
The problem _here_ Robert, is that you're overstating the case, so much
so that you're unwilling to grant my example. What a crock, sir.
JB> C'mon, Robert, you're really stretching it, merely to add
RC> Stretching? Let's see what you claim to recognize in Conway's book.
Can't reference it properly. Sorry. Book went back (no renewal
possible w/my interlibrary loan system as it is today). However, if you
can get hands on it, look for the five or so pages which include mention
of Newton and the "problem of the 13 spheres." The one _unrelated_
thing that the book did for me was at last clarify how it's possible to
deal mathematically with spaces of dimension greater than four. It's
useless for _visualization_, of course, but it did explain how to "write
them" and calculate about them.
I had Conway's _Book_of_Numbers_ until today as well, but the University
"refused" to loan out the Abraham, _Creation_of_Nonstandard_Analysis_.
I don't know why; that's never happened before.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Harry Truman.
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:00:07
EID:8cca 22835800
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6e1e1831
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8a093cae
On 02 Apr 97, Laurie Appleton wrote:
LA> that decade of debates, where various evolutionists have
LA> admitted that the Creation Scientists WON almost every one
LA> of these open, public, scientific debates!
JB> If your criterion of scientific acumen and truth is the
JB> winning of debates, then it's no wonder you're so twisted up
JB> and confused. Debates are about winning debates, not about
JB> what the truth is.
LA> If you were in any way reasonable then you will know that
LA> there are several styles of debates. Some are performed in
LA> university situations to help students learn to look at both
LA> sides of a question. Some are put on as entertainment on TV
LA> and other media and some are are between persons who are
LA> interested in the facts and the truth and whose training
LA> equips them to deal with the subject.
And some --including most of the cre/evo sort-- are mounted by religious
campus groups, packed with "the choir," and biased in the _extreme_.
Those are the ones "won" by the creationists. In a courtroom (another
type of "debate" forum), the creationists have not "won" ONE SINGLE
DEBATE.
That's fortunate, since debates in courtrooms generally result in
precedent.
LA> The debates with the evolutionists were certainly of the
LA> latter type and were ones where the audience had proper
LA> grounds for the expectation that they would have an
LA> opportunity to make some sort of assessment of the cases put
LA> up.
I will speak from personal experience: Bullshit.
I've witnessed two, by _well_-known creationists; Duane Gish and Walter
Brown. I will not even make the assumption that they both _always_
debate with the same style and lack of substance that I witnessed, but
will limit myself to these two actual examples. Both were NOT in your
latter category.
LA> Your efforts to confuse this issue, stems no doubt, from
I attempt to UN-confuse the readers, after you've done such a confusing
job lying to them. There's no one more confusion-generating than an
inveterate religious Liar, such as yourself, sir.
LA> your embarassment at finding how pathetic your heroes turned
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
(*ROFL!*)
.....You _wish_.
LA> out to be. It seems likely that that has not only distorted
LA> your thinking but has also exposed your bigotry,
LA> intolerance and conceited intellectual arrogance, to say
LA> nothing of your lack of ordinary courtesy!
So adopt the high ethical ground, Buster; I don't care. You have MORE
than proved your lying self to be unworthy of MY respect, even after
years of giving you plenty of room. A LIAR who simply will not stop
LYING deserves the amount of respect that that condition engenders: ZIP.
JB's second Guideline, strongly taught to his own children:
"Never lie, and don't believe people who do."
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... This is a logic tagline. <--- This is a lie.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Popper & Metaphysics.
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:15:19
EID:daf7 228359e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 33d7628b
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 8a093d13
On 02 Apr 97, Laurie Appleton wrote:
LA> John,
LA> (Re yours of 29-Mar-1997, "Popper & Metaphysics.")
LA> Hi John,
JB> Don't "hi" me, Appleton. You and your disgusting
JB> anti-educational sophist fanatic religious behaviour are not
JB> welcome to me, nor do I grant you the informal prerogative.
LA> That is clear enough and outrageous enough for you to be
LA> TWITTED until such time as you are prepared to make an
LA> appropriate "recantation".
(*relieved sigh*) .......Thank God for small favors.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Logic and Reason: Nonsequitur detector.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:16:53
EID:336b 22835a00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 bc9bfe6b
REPLY: 1:123/67 33421515
On 02 Apr 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> SS>> [Bait Boy, look the other way, you won't understand]
JB> Nah. I'll look; I might not comment....
SS> Whatever. You have already demonstrated to the entire Fido world that
SS> SS>> 1KI 7:23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape,
SS> SS>> measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It
SS> SS>> took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. [24] Below
SS> the SS>> rim, gourds encircled it--ten to a cubit. The gourds were
SS> cast in SS>> two rows in one piece with the Sea.
SS> SS>> We know that pi= 3.14159...
SS> SS>> The Sea of cast metat measurments are in ERROR by 1.4149 cubits.
SS> SS>> End of lesson.
JB> Yeah, Shermie; you're right: not worthy of comment.
SS> Why? Was it because I included no ZEROs?
No, it was because it was just the same old bullshit.
(By the way, as noted to Judith: I'll give you one definite thing that
surprised me: you, wearing a truly gaudy flowered Hawaiian shirt, was
about the last image of you that I could have imagined! If that was
Judith's doing, I recant that, but if that was actually what you wore in
the photo, you managed to thoroughly astonish me. *grin*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... WARNING! Evolution may be hazardous to your Ego.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CE
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:43:43
EID:2d10 22836560
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 5d72f401
On 01 Apr 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
SA> Actually, shouldn't it have been simply 0 (no CE or BCE?)
JM> No... this whole argument is really dumb, Sue. The first year
JM> isn't the zeroth year, it's the first year. If it were to be
RH> It's both; the first number is zero.
JM> measured it would be in fractions, but it would still be
JM> fractions of one, not zero.
RH> OH SHIT! Brawley has a convert!
Now, now, Roger.... (*grin*) There ARE some other wise and reasonable
people out there besides Yours Truly. (*chuckle*) (TIC)
He makes an interesting counterexample; one I had missed.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Nonlocality, not consciousness, collapses the wavefunction.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Idiot Tax
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:46:07
EID:0d3c 228365c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e852c5c6
REPLY: 1:3603/210 547a5f9b
On 01 Apr 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> You should have saved that for Brawley's response in which he
RC> told you his revelation that 0 - 0 = 1.
That was a question about, if I recall,
how many 'staals' I'd get for it.
It does, however, seem to express the very first (Primary) necessary
concept of my "origin sequence" in the shortest possible symbolic form.
That it makes no mathematical sense is logical: it's a metaphysical
statement placed in the wrong language.
It expresses the concept that cancelling out 'nothing' does not produce
more 'nothing,' it produces a default back to 'something.'
I don't expect your crystallized, math-dogmatized mind to understand it,
however, so don't worry too much about it. (*chuckle*)
RC> He should teach math wherever Appletoon teaches biology.
A visit to Australia would be nice, but I'd rather Apple-toons left the
country beforehand....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... So glory be to Allah when ye enter the night and when ye enter the morning.After
all is said and done, more is said than done.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:54:15
EID:528c 228366c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e28b7292
REPLY: 1:3603/210 547a5fac
On 01 Apr 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
JB> I'm not very good at throwing _numbers_ around like this, in my
JB> head, but I am very good at throwing _objects_ around so.
RC> Especially when the object he's throwing is a pile of shit. :-)
_Fossilized_ pile of shit. Gotta be a discrete pile, y'know.
JB> I can just barely detect that there's another 'zero block' being
JB> inserted into your range [5,15], but I can't pin it down clearly.
CH> Ok, folks. John Brawley has gone over the edge. I'm now slipping
CH> a zero-block between 5 and 15.
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 . . .
1 1 1 1 . . .
(etc.)
Switching columns is a thing you can't do with a line of bricks.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Science does not deny God; God does not deny science.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Holysmoke Web Site
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:57:43
EID:84b5 22836720
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 cfaf96d9
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33414b2a
On 01 Apr 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
-> On 31 Mar 97 04:47:56, Shelby Sherman got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> My guess is that there were ZERO lawyers contacting her
DC> because of Brawley.
SS> Actually, I'm surprised that Brawley is still around. You'd think
SS> that a nutcase like him would be chasing a spaceship behind a comet
or
DC> Perhaps. However, it's fun watching Brawley duke it out with
DC> Appletoon. And, he does well with Ken "kill a 12 yr old" Wiens.
Appleton deserves to be 'duked,' but unfortunately it doesn't produce
the 'out.'
Appleton's a known and incurable Liar; I am merely a formal crackpot
having fun with some arrogant people.
(*grin*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Creationist graphs: Draw your curves first, then plot your data.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Holysmoke Web Site
|Date: 03 Apr 97 13:00:54
EID:2bb5 22836800
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 2badf284
REPLY: 1:123/67 3342167d
On 02 Apr 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> 01 Apr 97 17:51, quoting Dan Ceppa to Shelby Sherman:
DC> Perhaps. However, it's fun watching Brawley duke it out with
DC> Appletoon. And, he does well with Ken "kill a 12 yr old" Wiens.
SS> Yeah, but he is 0 (there's that pesky number again) for life against
SS> Curry.
NONzero, thank you. Very small margin, but not quite 'zero.'
(*grin*)
I defend the infinitesimal fly in Curry's frozen soup.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Growing Older: 'Essence cessation sensation.'
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 03 Apr 97 13:02:29
EID:ae2d 22836840
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 0e1c1a7f
REPLY: 1:123/67 33422ff3
On 02 Apr 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> Yes and if The Cosmic Star Goat is the One and Only True God, you will
SS> be eaten on Judgment Day to stew in the Holy Bile forever.
(*yuck....*)
SS> If Allah is the true god you christians will burn in hell.
SS> If Brawley's Quantum god is the true god, zErO will be removed from
SS> the number line.
Dumbesilleh. Separate areas of enjoyment.
IN fact, if 'my' Quantum God is the true god, all other gods are It's
partially failed attempts at communication with obstinate, dense,
matter-limited human minds down through history. Now, if the humans
would try a little harder to use the quantum-nonlocal aspects of their
minds instead of the 'physical' aspects, maybe the common channels would
improve....
SS> If the Knights who so recently said "nee!" are god, you will install
SS> shuberries for all of eternity.
Egad, what a sentence.... With or without their arms and legs?
SS> This can go on ad infinitum, DUMBASS. Does the debunking of Pascal's
SS> Wager make any sense to you now? Of course not, you are just a fundy
SS> ignoramus.
Who debunked Pascal's Wager??! Must all state Lotteries now close down
forever? What a sad state of affairs for all those potential winners
who will now be deprived of their just desserts....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Religion is Science without its glasses.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Ark stuff
|Date: 03 Apr 97 13:09:24
EID:69ab 22836920
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 118d06fd
REPLY: 1:123/67 3342342b
On 02 Apr 97, Shelby Sherman wrote:
SS> 01 Apr 97 12:17, quoting Karl Schneider to Shelby Sherman:
KS> Bother and damnation. I meant to save all those posts on the ark
KS> but got busy and zapped the packet. It that all in a filesomewhere
KS> I could get it...on the net, maybe?
KS> Tanks.
Same thing happened to me.
SS> I sent the file ark.zip to your internet e-mail address.
Would you be so kind as to repeat that effort, for me?
Either of the two addresses below will do.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Harass an agnostic! Burn a question mark in his yard!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: GEORGE HARPER
|Sub: Scientific Proof - ZERO
|Date: 04 Apr 97 00:42:00
EID:ebcd 22840540
MSGID: 1:3603/210 5663d39f
TID: GE/2 1.2
GH> In a couple of recent posts I stated the discovery - over 20 years
GH> ago - of an "anomaly" in the general flow of time, as
GH> mathematically measured by the ephemeral data collection
GH> computers at one of the labs charged with developing guidance
GH> systems for "space" vehicles.
Oh yes, I saw and responded to same, and I'm still laughing at your
stupid religious gullibility. Of course you know that you are only
repeating yet more idiotic lies, taken on faith because of being too
lazy to think for yourself and check that your ridiculous story is
anything but a myth.
You state that there was a discovery -- by whom, exactly? Why was
that detail completely missing from your preposterous lie, George?
Why are you unable to substantiate the utter nonsense that you
so unthinkingly reproduce? Was your story a *deliberate* religious
deception, George? Did you *knowingly* repeat the nonsense?
GH> Unless one of the more erudite among you can provide scientific
GH> data to prove that the stated anomaly in the structure of time
GH> does NOT exist,
ROFL! Silly fundy, it's not the job of others to "prove" you are
just repeating religious lies. After all, you have no facts (for the
John Brawley math-impaired, that means ZERO facts presented). When
you have some actual substance rather than lots of hot air, speak up.
A mere idiotic assertion, George, only makes you into a clown.
GH> THIS evidence I am certain can be verified.
But you can't verify it, can you? -ROFL!- You brainless idiot.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
--- PCBoard/2 15.30
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: AMANDA BARLOWE
|Sub: A BABY + GOD = HELL
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:42:05
EID:0d11 22846540
MSGID: 1:3603/210 56bccdba
TID: GE/2 1.2
AB> Innocent babies do not go to hell.
Only guilty babies do?
AB> Only when they reach the age of accountability.
Would you send someone's child to hell because they have reached
some age of accountability without being 100% perfect, Amanda?
Or do you grow sick at the very notion of condemning people to
eternal torture -- since you are nowhere near as vile as the
inhuman, sadistic god you worship?
AB> I will be praying for you.
Because praying for others _avoids_ thinking for yourself.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
--- PCBoard/2 15.30
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:42:06
EID:9b7f 22846540
MSGID: 1:3603/210 56bccdbb
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: George Harper
JB> BTW. What difference does it make to YOUR life or afterlife
JB> if I do not believe as you do?
A good question (as always).
Now we shall see how this one imitates the crickets chirping late
in the dark silence of night.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
--- PCBoard/2 15.30
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ED MILLS
|Sub: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:42:07
EID:629f 22846540
MSGID: 1:3603/210 56bccdbc
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Liar Appleton
LA> the obvious answer is that there is necessarily an
LA> Intelligent Designer!
EM> It must be a pain in the neck having to check for monsters
EM> under the bed every night before you turn out the lights.
EM> (I mean the "obvious" monsters which must be there by
EM> virtue of the fact that you're so afraid of the dark.)
He has a bigger monster in the sky to watch over him, though, to
keep the small-timers away.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
--- PCBoard/2 15.30
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: RICK MCFARLANE
|Sub: Contradictions
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:42:08
EID:c8b4 22846540
MSGID: 1:3603/210 56bccdbd
TID: GE/2 1.2
RM> There are a few of us, however, who religiously eschew
RM> the trash talk.
A matter of perspective.
Religious superstitions are considerably more deserving in my
opinion of being referred to as "trash" than are a few words
that some groups consider taboo. Your mileage may vary, especially
if Baha'u'llahpostrophe miraculously mucks with the odometer.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
--- PCBoard/2 15.30
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: ARROGANCE
|Date: 02 Apr 97 13:10:06
EID:6cb7 22826940
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 79184e39
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e097785
TID: GE/32 1.2
GH> *YOU* are calling *ME* "dumbass? My choice of religion pays off if
it's
GH> the right one, OR the "wrong" one...
But, Georgie-honey... you *are* a dumbass.
GH> Because I opt to believe that Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Ghost
are
GH> the ONE REAL God...as long as I continue in this belief, and fulfill
all
GH> it's precepts...I go to Heaven.
This yahweh god of yours... what makes you so sure he's the real god? I
think
he's not the real god. What makes your belief more valid than mine?
GH> Since it is my firm intent to do just
GH> that, I WILL go to Heaven. My God doesn't care if there are any other
GH> gods, and won't deny me my reward because one of those others fools
GH> enough people to be selected the true god by popular vote...My God
GH> doesn't hold office by election...His is a lifetime position, and all
GH> the other gods give homage to Him.
You won't go to heaven. The god you believe in is a god of evil. What else
would you call a god who would torture anyone for eternity? Of course, your
belief in this god has so warped your perception of what is good and what
is
evil that you probably think it's good for people to suffer eternally for
not
kissing his ass.
GH> So, because my God can ignore the rantings of the others, I will
GH> go to Heaven, even if YOUR god "proves" himself to be a true god...
GH> however, you *WILL* still get the 90 bucks if you're wrong! Where
GH> do you figure on spending it???
I won't have to spend it, because I'm not going to hell.
GH> Oh, by the way, I win Pascal's Wager...everyone who loses, payment
GH> is due...Hale Bopp is coming!
If either of us are going to win Pascal's wager, it'll be me, because if
there isn't a god, I won't have wasted my life spouting utter bullshit,
and
if there is a god, well, God made me an atheist, and who am I to question
His
divine wisdom?
... Campus Crusade for Cthulhu: If your god's dead blame mine.
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:33:06
EID:f4ab 22848420
MSGID: 1:229/622 33452d42
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 77e0bdb4
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Martin complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Ken <=-
MG> The post office is not promoting religion. It does not promote credit
MG> cards by delivering ads for them either.
It does promote religion when it gives special rates for religious materials
on the SOLE GROUNDS that they are religious.
I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen, but if it did, then it should be
stopped.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Doug Lee
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Normalities
|Date: 04 Apr 97 18:18:11
EID:60dc 22849240
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 3345c6c1
REPLY: 1:246/15.0 33445bc2
-=> Quoting Sue Armstrong to Doug Lee <=-
DL> Well...Maybe not. My mailbox keeps filling up with 20-30 msgs a day
DL> from just the MAGE-L list.
SA>
SA> Heh. That's about as many as we get - sometimes a little more,
SA> sometimes less, depending. Say, do you have Phil Brucato on over
SA> there?
Umm...no. At least not on the main listing of members. Tho' he could be
one of the "hidden" members. And some people think he lurks there.
Why?
DL> "Yes, now be still. Where was I?....Oh yes. Now between this reality
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DL> and the penumbra exists yet another realm. Tho' it's properties are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DL> unique. One cannot actually exist in this realm, but only though
DL> enterance and exit. Much like like walking through a doorway. With one
DL> step you move from one part of a dwelling to another. And doing so
DL> requires a length of time. Same is true for this tertiary realm. The
DL> Garou, and some Masters of the Sphere of Correspondence I might add,
DL> can use this realm to travel from one point in space to another.
DL> However, the relationship of time to this realm is not a constant. The
DL> perceived passage of time in this realm is much quicker than in
DL> reality. An entity might only perceive that 1 sec had passed only to
DL> discover that upon exiting this tertiary realm that hours had passed.
DL> There now. Does that clear things up for you?" the professer asked.
DL> "Umm...not rea..."
DL> "Fine, fine M' boy" he stated as he patted his young charge on the
DL> head. "Glad to be of help. Now don't forget to review chapters 24-26
DL> for thursdays exam on krlilian photography and it's relationship to
DL> quantum anomilies". He interupted as he picked up the theisis in his
DL> lap.
SA> Heheheh. Silly mage. It might describe things a little differently
SA> in the M:tA book, but the Umbra section in W:tA describes the
SA> Penumbra as having time set, pretty much like it is on Earth.
Yes. The Mage book says the same thing. I was refering to a tertiary realm
that exists between reality and the Umbra. I was just using my own theory
on the gift SBT. And just presenting it how a Son of Ether might see it.
Each mage explains the universe according to their own paradims. A Son of
Ether sees everything along a scientific basis. But (as I call it) on a
"Star Trek" level. If you listen to LaForge try to explain how something
works, then you know how a SoE tries to explain things.
A Dreamspeaker for example would try to explain it as....after a period
of
meditation or drumming, she would call on a spirit to guide her from one
point to another.
A Celestial Chorus mage would see it as a calling of the lord to travers
the great distance in his service. Presuming he didn't see the Garou as
an
expression as the evil one or some such.
And so on...
SA> The
SA> Near (Middle) Umbra, on the other hand ...
SA> Of course, the stupid rules are really contradictory (well, not
SA> really contradictory, but they do leave things fuzzy)
I don't see anything really wrong with that. Leaves more room for the ST
to customize.
SA> about
SA> travelling along moon paths and the like. Concievably, you could
SA> follow one into the NU, travel along it to the other side of the
SA> world and come out of the Penumbra there anywhere from a second to,
SA> oh, decades later or longer. Yet the older books try to force one
SA> to think that the only way you could do transoceanic umbral travel
SA> is via caern-to-caern moon bridge.
How about this?
Since the creation of the world to...let's say the industrial revolution
there was really no need to travel anywhere else *but* from on caren to
another. The earth was doing relatively (and I mean relatively) well.
There wasn't that much pollution in the world. And that which did exist
was clustered around the city's and towns anyway.
Then the industrial revolution occured. Factorys started springing up
seemingly everywhere. Spewing smoke and other waste products in the air
and
waterways. Industrialization caused a population explosion as well. Suddenly
both the Wyrm *and* Weaver were out of control. To handle these sudden
happenings it became nessacary to travel "blind" to different hot spots.
Thus it was nessacery to develop a means to travel from caren to
"drop zone".
How's that for about 10 sec of thought?
SA> Well, at least the Nuwisha book
The what?
SA> clears that up a bit; it says specifically that 1) they spend most
SA> of their time in the Umbra and 2) this allowed them to go all over
SA> the place, even before Columbus. Of course, it begs the question -
SA> why, then, were Eurasian Garou supposed to be so surprised when they
SA> found Garou in North America and Australia?
In reading "Rage across Australia" it says that the Bunyip essentaly cut
the continent off from the rest of the world. Here I'll see if I can dig
it up here....Ah here. Chapter 1 para "The War of Rage and the Impergium"
It starts describing the War of Rage and how the Bunyip were disgusted by
it and retreted into the penumbra to find a place away from it. They then
stumbled across australia.
"...Once in Australia the Bunyip enacted powerful rituals to seal the
Dreamtime(my note: what they called the penumbra) from further invasion,
knowing full well the horrors that would be inflicted upon Australia by
their warlike brethen were they to be discovered. Travel via Moon Bridge
became impossible, and remained so until the Garou (My note again: They
refer to the coming of the euro-garou)gained control of Australia's carens.
In this way the Bunyip became, like the flora and fauna of Australia,
isolated from external infulunce,...."
It goes on to say that the other Garou basicaly forgot about them.
I could see something similar happening in North America.
... The worst thing about censorship is XXXXXXXXX
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:cafb 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 39bcd8a6
GH>Excuse me, but isn't the fact that a woman isn't physically able to bear
GH>the rigors of pregnancy at least ONE of the dangers of pregnancy? That
GH>hardly makes an "either...or" statement valid. If you meant the dangers
of
GH>delivery, there is the option of c-section delivery. And, while we
are
GH>on the topic of surgical/pseudo-surgical interventions...what about
GH>sterilization procedures...if you don't WANT to get pregnant, getting
GH>"neutered" is an option that WILL prevent it, regardless of WHO your
GH>partner is, or HIS fertility status.
GH>When my wife was pregnant the last time, the doctor told her that
GH>further pregnancies would pose a serious threat to her. WE opted
GH>for sterilization...voila...27 years later, and still no further
GH>pregnancies. Get a clue choose what works without sacrificing a
GH>potential genius in the process...
Maybe you should ask Lynda how effective surgical sterilization is.
GH>KD> We're then moving on to late term abortions, which are done ONLY
for the
GH>KD> health and life of the mother.
GH>KD> KD> not because they don't want the child. Primarily, at least.
If the
GH>KD> KD> baby is
GH>KD> KD> coming out, you're not pregnant any more, no need to worry if
the
GH>babyKD> KD> comes out alive or dead.
GH>KD>
GH>KD> JS> Exactly my point. Why kill the baby then?
GH>KD>
GH>KD> BECAUSE THE MOTHER IS GOING TO DIE IN THE DELIVERY IF THEY DON'T.
You
GH>KD> don't get the point.
GH>KD>
GH>KD> KD> BECAUSE THERE IS A DANGER TO HER, AND THE BABY IS LIKELY ALREADY
GH>KD> KD> DYING.
GH>KD>
GH>KD> JS> Huh!? The baby is already born except for the head. What in
the
GH>worldKD> JS> are yo talking about? Are you trying to deny the procedure
yet?
GH>KD>
GH>KD> The head is the largest part and the hardest to get out. We are dealing
GH>KD> with situations where delivering the head will kill the mother or
the
GH>KD> baby.
GH>KD>
GH>KD> JS> Ron Fitzsimmons may or may not be a doctor either, but he said
GH>KD> JS> 3000-4000 viable fetuses with healthy mothers.
GH>KD>
GH>KD> Lie.
GH>Karen: If the delivery process is normal, the head emerges first.
GH>If the head is LAST, it is called a breech birth, and the difficulties
GH>are past by the time the head is the only thing left to emerge. If
GH>the woman has survived to this point, she is very probably going to survive
GH>the rest of the procedure. One of my grandchildren was a breech-birth.
GH>She is going to be 4 in a few weeks, and the mother is still alive and
GH>contemplating another pregnancy.
Are you truly this ignorant? It would seem so. No, the difficulties
are not past by the time the narrow and flexible body is delivered.
They are only jut beginning. I could recommend that you do some
reading on the subject, but I've already seen that you are incapable of
being educated.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * How would W. A. Spooner titillate an oscelot?
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: Christanic Terrorists
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:2e98 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 931e84de
GH>KD> And most women who have given a child up for adoption experience
GH>KD> PRECISELY the same thing. Women who keep children in a real crisis
GH>KD> pregnancy have other problems.
GH>KD>
GH>KD> Control for the crisis, George, and you'll find none of the options
are
GH>KD> easy.
GH>As I stated in an earlier post...if the woman doesn't want to get pregnant,
or
GH>shouldn't, she has the option of a surgical procedure to prevent pregnancies.
GH>There is even a reversible procedure.
GH>If the problems with a pregnancy are such that they are not seen before
GH>conception, then the options MUST all be considered, but care must still
be
GH>taken to insure the spiritual future of the unborn, since there is deadly
risk
GH>to that life as well. (GASP! A pro-lifer said ALL OPTIONS MUST BE
GH>CONSIDERED!!!!!!!)
George, a large percentage of OB emergencies happen with no warning. A
very large percentage only develop after conception, and we've only in
the last few decades learned to spot early enough to intervene. You,
as usual, are talking off the top of your head from a foundation of
little or no knowledge.
I was one of those 'no warning of trouble' pregnancies. And no, I
wouldn't ever give up my daughter to escape the horror of the hour after
she was born. But I can't risk another pg--I wouldn't survive it (I
can't physically tolerate the drugs that would be used for the c-section
and hysterectomy that would be the result of another pg). Yes, we
chose surgical sterilization--but as Lynda can tell you, that isn't
always effective.
GH>However, the infinitesmally small number of "at-risk" pregnancies does
NOT
GH>justify the substitution of slaughter for birth control...Such abortions
GH>MUST cease! The pregnant woman already MADE her choice, and does NOT
have
GH>the right to change her mind based on her convenience alone!
Only if she chooses to become pregnant. What you are saying is that a
woman who is raped, or who was practising birth control that failed (all
forms of birth control that we have to day can and do fail, including
vasectomies and tubule ligations), or who's parents\church have refused
to allow her the knowledge to use such things 'chooses' to get pregnant.
This is a major sized load of crap.
Get your hands off of my uterus, asshole, and keep them off. It's that
simple.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Humans: Useful domestic animals,popular with cats.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Ark stuff
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:98cc 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3571610a
KS>Bother and damnation. I meant to save all those posts on the ark
KS>but got busy and zapped the packet. It that all in a filesomewhere
KS>I could get it...on the net, maybe?
KS>Tanks.
I saved them--do you have an e-mail address that I can send them to?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I absolutely did NOT do it. And I won't do it again.-JJH
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom Of Choice
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:82ec 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 45e41d99
KY>Re: Freedom Of Choice
KY>> KY>Thank you. I never looked at it that way, but I would say you are
KY>probabl> KY>right. It was something I had a feeling was wrong, but didn't
KY>really know> KY>why.
KY>> KY>The best I could come up with before, was that since procreation
could
KY>not> KY>come from it, the main purpose of sex could not be present, and
KY>therefore > KY>could be unnatural.
KY>> Well, that works for a blow job, but doesn't touch not going down on
KY>> your wife.
KY>I have heard that argument when debating about maturbation, but I would
say
KY>if it is clear it is wrong for one, then it would be wrong for everyone.
Kennychild, it's very clear that you've never had an ongoing sexual
relationship with anything but your hand. You seem to think that oral
sex would replace vaginal intercourse, rather than supplement it. I
feel for any woman you ever do manage to hook up with--as your attitudes
make it clear that you plan to be a selfish and self centered lover.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I am Jimmy Swaggart of Borg. Prepare to go to a motel in
New Orl
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:bfcb 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 3990d830
KY>Re: You forgot to answer thi
KY>> GH> (NEWS FLASH: Hitler was NOT a Christian...he was
KY>> GH> a lunatic on the order of Jimmy Jones)
KY>> VALID NEWS FLASH: Hitler was a Christian--- he said so.
KY>> But then, so was the Rev Jim Jones.
KY>Oh, he said so. That makes it true? If someone said they were a Jew,
KY>couldn't they be lying about it? If someone said they were a Wiccan,
KY>couldn't they be wrong on what Wiccans believe? JUst because someone
says
KY>they are something, doesn't make it a fact.
You do of course have a signed power of attorney from 'god' allowing you
to make these judgement calls. Or, just maybe, you are the one who is
'no True Christian'?
KY>Hitler likely thought he was a Christian, but what he did, was merged
the
KY>beliefs and ideas of God and Satan.
No more so than you seem to be doing?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I am Mommy of Borg-no dessert til broccoli is assimilated
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: God's terrorists!
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:47c8 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 238aec30
RC> RC> I always offer the Mormons a nicely chilled drink of some
RC> RC> other caffeinated beverage of their choice, though.
RC> KW> I've had a lot of fun with a LDS 'friend' of mine by sweetly
RC> KW> pointed out that chocolate also contains caffein . That
RC> KW> always sends her into a tailspin ending with chanted recitations
RC> KW> of 'is not, is not, is not, is not . . ."
RC>Thank you for the inspiration for my new offering. Chocolate it will
RC>be from now on.
If you really want to be mean--offer them a bowl of brandy beans.
I did manage to get several glasses of iced tea down a pair of LDS
missionaries once. They were close to heat stroke--being stupid enough
to ride bicycles out in the west Texas sun in August without hats. I
also had the fun of calling the LDS center out at the university,
chewing out the man who answered the phone, and demanding that they send
a car out to pick these two idiotchildren up.
'God' was obviously not as influential as an El Paso summer.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I am Pat Robertson of Borg. The truth is irrelevant.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:a677 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 9d4d1067
DC>-> On 28 Mar 97 22:06:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC>-> On 23 Mar 97 06:54:00, Ken Wiens got back to Robert Curry
DC> DC>Well, Kenny: You have your wish. You are that executioner.
DC> DC>Your first client is none other then your 12 yr old daughter.
DC> DC>Carry out the sentence.
DC> KW> You are forgetting part of the formula, Dan.
DC> KW> 'God will reward you if you do.'
DC>That, unfortunately, is the key for his treatment of women.
With every posts that he makes, Ken makes his withered hate ridden soul
more visible.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I can go from 0 to bitch in 2.5 seconds.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: You ignorant christian gi
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:73ba 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d9a9abdb
GH>There is NO way to quote any one thing definitive from your masterful
GH>supposition documentation. Were I not aware of the facts of the
GH>matter, I might easily be led into doubt.
First he covers his eyes, and pulls the bed covers over his head. . .
GH>You really acomplished only one major goal...you wasted a lot of time
GH>and valuable bandwidth, arguably with the awareness that such a document
GH>would be rejected out of hand by a discerning reader as too biased to
GH>be worthwhile.
GH>Do your sysop and your NC, etc., a favor, and confine your arguments
to
GH>a page or two per post. Rest assured that if *I* were in the path
GH>other than as a destination node, you would be charged for the time
GH> and effort you cost the netwwork...
. . .then he resorts to threats and blustering about his fondness for
censorship because he just plain doesn't have the balls to face a few
awkward facts.
This boy is pathetic.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I consider being called Banana a compliment.--Joanna A.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: J.c. Kibler
|Sub: Repent NOW!
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:4608 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 37ebfa30
JK>TAKE THAT, YOU GODLES HEATHERN SCUM! CRIST WILL HAVE YOUO ALL ON A BARBEQUET
JK>SPIT IN HELL FOR BLASFEMY!
Oh, my goodness, it's Georgie-poorgie's soul mate!
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I feel great . . . and I kiss good, too.
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:030d 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b807819c
RH> -=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to George Harper <=-
RH> JB> you like or don't, the FACT of the matter is that pregnancy does
not
RH> JB> concern you, as a man, at all. You run none of the risks, you get
none
RH> JB> of the say.
RH>The Hell you say! You don't consider lifetime child support a risk?
RH>Just who pays the bills in YOUR family?
Why, Roger, do you think that Harper is another good xtian family
household head who's wife gets out to earn him a living?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I hate it when I type to fast for my own good!-Dan Ceppa
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: MAXI-POST
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:39:00
EID:41d4 2283ace0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org a09c2c31
RH>Matter of fact, I take potshots at the Pagans once in awhile, just
RH>to even things out a bit.
Unfortunately you keep missing us. Even when I paint big red bulls eyes
on
the center of my shirt, you keep missing me. Whadda we have to
do to get you to take an accurate potshot at us, borrow your shot gun and
shoot ourselves? ;)
I think that you're too used to shooting at xtians, who lump up in
flocks and try to figure out if they should all be mooing or baaing in
unison.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I have a firm grip on reality. Now I can strangle it.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 04 Apr 97 17:02:00
EID:2e98 22848840
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6586f178
GH> KW> Well, you've managed to
GH> KW> convince me of the utter worthlessness of your god, at least.
GH>You were a believer before I started sending out my $.02 worth?! I
GH>really doubt THAT statement...go ahead and prove *I* am the one who
GH>caused you to find my God worthless. (at least I got you to admit that
GH>MY God exists!)
GH>Now all that remains is to convince you that He *DOES* care enough to
want
GH>to give you another chance...get your head out of the sand...
Oh, I'm a believer, just not a believer in your 'god'. As for you being
'the one', no there have been others before you, you are merely another
proving to me that even if your 'god' were to exist, he is not worth
worshiping. His followers are not a group that I would personally want
to be included among.
And no, I've seen nothing to date to cause me to think that your 'god'
exists as more than a mashed together jello salad of several Middle
Eastern Deities. The closest that I can come to a 'root' god seems to
be a rather nasty deity of decay and destruction.
First, you would have to convince me that your 'god' exists in the form
that you want to present him. Then you would have to convince me that
this rather disgusting concept of a 'god' was worthy of worship. And
after that, you would have to convince me that I should have to get down
on my knees to such stipulated deity--without vomiting on his altar.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I know he's studly, but can he type?
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 04 Apr 97 17:02:00
EID:1fd7 22848840
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f8afbee9
GH>Wednesday Apr 2
GH> CLOSE TO HIM
GH> IN THE SAME WAY, COUNT YOURSELVES DEAD TO SIN BUT ALIVE TO GOD IN
GH> CHRIST JESUS Romans 6:11
You're moothing. And if you mooth, I get to mooth back.
-----------------------
Proof Techniques
Methods for getting people to believe you (as good as, if not better than,
proof). A collection of proof techniques that will prove invaluable to
both mathematicians and members of the general public.
PROOF TECHNIQUE #1 - 'Proof By Induction'
1. Obtain a large power transformer.
2. Find someone who does not believe your theorem.
3. Get this person to hold the terminals on the HV side of the
transformer.
4. Apply 25000 volts AC to the LV side of the transformer.
5. Repeat step (4) until they agree with the theorem.
PROOF TECHNIQUE #2 - 'Proof By Contradiction'
1. State your theorem.
2. Wait for someone to disagree.
3. Contradict them.
PROOF TECHNIQUE #3 - Fire Proof
1. Summon all your inferiors for a departmental meeting.
2. Present your theorem.
3. Fire those who disagree.
PROOF TECHNIQUE #4 - The Famous Water Proof
1. State your theorem.
2. Wait for someone to disagree.
3. Drown them.
NB. This is closely related to the 'bullet' proof, but is easier
to make look like an accident.
PROOF TECHNIQUE #5 - Idiot Proof
1. State your theorem.
2. Write exhaustive documentation with glossy colour pictures
and arrows about which bit goes where.
3. Challenge anyone to not understand it.
PROOF TECHNIQUE #6 - Child Proof
1. State your theorem.
2. Encapsulate it in epoxy and shape it into an ellipsoid.
3. Put it in a jar with all the other proofs (one with one of
those Press-to-Open lids).
4. Give it to a professor and challenge him to open it.
PROOF TECHNIQUE #7 - Rabbit Proof
1. Generate theorems at an altogether startling rate, much
faster than anybody is able to refute them. Use up every
body else's paper. Run away at the slightest sign of danger.
PROOF TECHNIQUE #8 - Fool Proof
1. State your theorem.
2. Invite colleagues to comment.
3. If they don't agree, exclaim loudly, "You Fools!"
----Found on the internet
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I let my mind wander, and it never came back...
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Thomas Delcano
|Sub: list alignment
|Date: 04 Apr 97 17:02:00
EID:d8da 22848840
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7c540f0b
TD>The following
TD>Psycho-babble was beamed into my
TD>E-Mail box by Katherine an unknown alien lifeform
TD>******************************
TD>Thomas del Cano Disgusta , GA Chaotic Weird Pagan lurking
and
TD>aka Duke Dirtbag deep in the just another random
TD>random bible belt roadkill on the posting
You're in. This will show up on the posting on May 1st, or you can view
it now at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3158/cast.html
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I love Jesus, yes I do, baked or broiled or in a stew!
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Scientific Proof Availabl
|Date: 04 Apr 97 17:02:00
EID:d223 22848840
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4d3de5ef
GH>ÿ@SUBJECT:Scientific Proof Available
N
GH>In a couple of recent posts I stated the discovery - over 20 years ago
- of
GH>an "anomaly" in the general flow of time, as mathematically measured
by the
GH>ephemeral data collection computers at one of the labs charged with developing
GH>guidance systems for "space" vehicles.
GH>One of the respondants stated that the "stars could be traced back
GH>MATHEMATICALLY"...
GH>Since I claim that there are two instances in the Bible where God manipulated
GH>time, I will use these statements /above\ to support my claim scientifically.
GH>Unless one of the more erudite among you can provide scientific data
to
GH>prove that the stated anomaly in the structure of time does NOT exist,
I
GH>suggest that you who choose to deny the existence of God begin to seek
GH>a hiding place; My evidence proves that time was manipulated, meaning
that
GH>there HAS to be a Being capable of DOING a feat of such magnitude!
GH>Okay, folks, the ball is in your court....you can rant, rave, foam at
the
GH>mouth, whirl about as good little demons do when caught out, etc...BUT,
GH>you have only two choices
GH>* Admit that I am correct, and then begin praying for forgiveness; or
GH>* Follow the stars back mathematically some connections that will be able to at least provide the computational
GH> equipment for such a task, if not the expertise to use that equipment;
GH> Or maybe Richard Smith has another friend at NASA also [I would eminently
GH> prefer that Richard were the one to do the research or at least co-ordinate
GH> said research...he has given his assurance of objectivity, and I believe
GH> that to be sincere]>.
GH>BTW...whoever does the research...be sure to announce the truth when
you
GH>find it...and DOCUMENT that truth...<is on me...THIS evidence I am certain can be verified. YOU are the ones
GH>claiming that I am lying, so the burden of proving the claim is yours...
GH>by your very own rules!!!>>
Idiotchild, you are the one making extraordinary claims, so you are the
one with the burden of proof to meet. Are you really this stupid, or
are you an atheist troll.
As you seem to be able to find the switch on your computer, I'm becoming
more and more convinced that you are indeed an atheist troll out to make
Christians look as silly and stupid as possible.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I once was burned, now I survive, was hung and now I sing
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 04 Apr 97 17:02:00
EID:b745 22848840
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 1635e22b
LB>Judith and Katherine were killing time yakking about Educational Experienc:
LB> JB>Yeah, I know. He expects US to relay your words to him so he can
say
LB> JB>'aha! This is second hand information and how is that any different
from
LB> JB>what I've been spewing?'
LB> JB>He's a twit. And possible Harpy bait but I won't promise that.
LB>Let's not break him....our squeaky toys keep breaking too soom. And this
one
LB>is soooo much fun.
LB>And there are *others* here who want a bite out of him. ;)
I wish them luck--there's very little substance to him. Rather like
cotton candy without the sugar.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I prefer to think; therefore, I am.-Marty L.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 04 Apr 97 17:02:00
EID:f18a 22848840
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 923ca783
DH> JB>> It's already been built, Katherine. Didn't you know that. It even
DH> JB>> extends a few miles beyond the top of the mountain.
DH> KW> Do they have a McDonalds up there yet?
DH>Golden Arks! Over 1 Billion Sold!
With a special on tall, cool 'Missing Hydrospheres' for that huge
thirst!
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I support Drawing Down the Moon in Public School.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 04 Apr 97 17:02:00
EID:28cc 22848840
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5553806d
DM>George Harper said "Portals Of Prayer Apr 2" to All, adding:
DM> GH> Wednesday Apr 2
DM> GH> CLOSE TO HIM
DM> GH> IN THE SAME WAY, COUNT YOURSELVES DEAD TO SIN BUT ALIVE TO GOD IN
DM> GH> CHRIST JESUS Romans 6:11
DM> GH> When we are separated from a loved one we feel sad and lonely.
DM> OK, who sent the fundy into Mootherfucker mode?
DM> Now we'll get loads of this spam for months until he says
DM>something nasty to Rod Swift and disappears in a puff of tracts.
It can't be any more green and fuzzy than the rest of his overworked and
under supported postings. Anyway, Mooth served a purpose here, and
if Georgie-Boy wants to take over for him, it's fine with me. I won't
worry unless he follows in the tracks of Maria Russell and goes into
overload mode.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I wonder how much dilithium an ark would need?-Richard
S.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Profanity 01
|Date: 04 Apr 97 17:02:00
EID:51fb 22848840
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 5a68b389
ML>Katherine Wintersnight, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to,
said
ML>to Judith Bandsma
ML> JB>-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to
Judith
ML> KW> <=-
ML> JB> KW> They're just waiting for you to turn your back. Somehow, I
feel, the
ML> JB> KW> B*** Council is involved!
ML> JB>Now you've gone and done it.
ML> KW> Uh......what blue council?
ML> The ones with the black helicopters.
Shhhhhh! Do you want them to notice us?
(btw, may I please have your permission to post your writings on my
web site?)
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * I'd be a Christian if it wasn't for Christians - Gandhi
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:27:00
EID:3142 2283b360
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 345cf071
-=> Quoting George Harper to All <=-
Good morning, George.
GH> Wednesday Apr 2
GH> CLOSE TO HIM
GH> IN THE SAME WAY, COUNT YOURSELVES DEAD TO SIN BUT ALIVE TO GOD IN
GH> CHRIST JESUS Romans 6:11
...
GH> Heavenly Father keep us ever at your side. In Your Son's Name we
GH> pray. Amen
Don't turn into George Mooth on us!
Take care.
... How far high failure overleaps the bound of low successes. - L. Morris
--- AdeptXBBS v1.09.06 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Scientific Proof Available
|Date: 04 Apr 97 21:16:00
EID:9ecc 2284aa00
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 345cf081
-=> Quoting George Harper to All <=-
Good morning, George.
GH> In a couple of recent posts I stated the discovery - over 20 years ago
GH> - of an "anomaly" in the general flow of time, as mathematically
GH> measured by the ephemeral data collection computers at one of the labs
GH> charged with developing guidance systems for "space" vehicles.
An vaguely described "anomaly", measured at an unspecified lab, by
nameless researchers, without any reference that anyone could look up.
No
one could check this out even if they wanted to. And you honestly expect
people to take this seriously?
Sounds like Enquirer stuff to me.
GH> Since I claim that there are two instances in the Bible where God
GH> manipulated time, I will use these statements /above\ to support my
GH> claim scientifically.
I searched your post and didn't see anything that even remotely resembled
"scientific support", much less the "scientific proof" that you claim in
the subject line.
GH> Unless one of the more erudite among you can
GH> provide scientific data to prove that the stated anomaly in the
GH> structure of time does NOT exist,
You still haven't got the point about that IOU of yours that so many
people are claiming to hold. You can't prove a negative.
You can't prove that X does not exist. But you don't have to. The person
claiming that X does exist is the one who has to present the proof.
X = either a $1,000,000 IOU, or an "anomaly in time", take your pick.
GH> I suggest that you who choose to
GH> deny the existence of God begin to seek a hiding place;
Before we go much farther, I should make sure that you understand that I
do not deny the existence of God. In fact, I accept the existence of God.
GH> My evidence
GH> proves that time was manipulated, meaning that there HAS to be a Being
GH> capable of DOING a feat of such magnitude!
What evidence? I know, you've heard that question before, but really, I'm
puzzled. You said you were going to present "scientific support", that
"scientific proof" was "available" and now you claim that your "evidence
proves that time was manipulated", but really, I don't see ANYTHING in this
note that would pass for support, evidence, or proof.
GH> Okay, folks, the ball is in your court....you can rant, rave, foam at
GH> the mouth, whirl about as good little demons do when caught out,
Some will no doubt give you the performances that you desire, tossing
all manner of vulgarity your way. Me, I'm just puzzled. What do you
think you have presented here that puts the ball in my court? A vague
claim that some unknown person at an unnamed institution found an
unspecified "anomaly"? Really?
Are you a troll, George?
GH> etc...BUT, you have only two choices
Oh, I've got more alternatives than that.
GH> * Admit that I am correct, and then begin praying for forgiveness;
or
I pray regularly, George. I wouldn't normally do this, but since you seem
to think it's OK to suggest that I pray for forgiveness, I'm going to have
to suggest that you pray for some enlightenment.
GH> * Follow the stars back mathematically some connections that will be able to at least provide the
GH> computational equipment for such a task, if not the expertise to use
GH> that equipment; Or maybe Richard Smith has another friend at NASA
GH> also [I would eminently prefer that Richard were the one to do the
GH> research or at least co-ordinate said research...he has given his
GH> assurance of objectivity, and I believe that to be sincere]>.
Or choice 3: giggle over this silliness.
GH> BTW...whoever does the research...be sure to announce the truth when
GH> you find it...and DOCUMENT that truth...
George, why don't YOU document something? What the hell makes you think
that people in here are obliged to document a rebuttal for your
UNDOCUMENTED bluster?
GH> < THIS evidence I am certain can be verified.
In that case, VERIFY IT!
GH> YOU
GH> are the ones claiming that I am lying, so the burden of proving the
GH> claim is yours... by your very own rules!!!>>
If I ever make such a claim, you can expect that the same post will carry
sufficient evidenece to support the claim. I have done exactly that with
Appleton in the recent past. I wouldn't lightly accuse anyone of lying.
OTOH, I certainly will not believe that your undocumented, unsupported,
nebulous story of an "anomaly in time" is true until you provide some sort
of reason for me to accept it. At the very minimum some sort of reference
that can be checked.
That is only rational, George.
It is appearing more and more likely you're just another troll. You
appear to be able to put your thoughts down in complete sentences, using
correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling (with the occasional typo that
makes it clear that you are not using a spell checker, and still manage
to
get it right the vast majority of the time). In other words, on the
surface, your posts seem to be coming from someone who is not totally
stupid.
Then you tell us all that whatever rules apply to you must also apply to
everyone else - not an unreasonable position to take.
Then you tell us that you will never accept any evidence that comes from
a
source you do not consider to be unbiased, regardless of the source's
credentials or the nature of the evidence - you won't even check it out
for yourself - a very unreasonable stance.
And NOW, you ask everyone else to accept as true your unreferenced,
unsupported, so-vague-that-it's-uncheckable statement that there is an
"anomaly in time" that proves the Bible is true. Totally irrational.
You don't think YOU should be required to accept anything that meet your
very strict standards, but you want us to accept this blather as truth
with nothing at all to back it up, and you claim that the rules that
apply to you apply to us.
Don't you see the inconsistency there, George? Does that seem to be the
work of a rational individual? I checked the date on your note, it was
so
silly I expected it was sent on April 1, but no, it was April 3.
Take care.
... Our enemies are our outward consciences. - Shakespeare
--- AdeptXBBS v1.09.06 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Well? Jesse? Jones?
|Date: 05 Apr 97 15:30:52
EID:2870 22857bc0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 334670b2
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e0c1f56
PID: GEDW32 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies April 02 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> I like the idea! We could hold our first seance! Then again, perhaps
we
FR> could go a bit further and bring Jesse Christ Jones back to life!
Of course, we could all find ourselves saying "Then my father is truly dead."
:)
I don't think he'll be back, as just about everybody in the echo will pull
out his "I'm leaving" message and rub his nose in it. Then again, the guy
had such a hard head that maybe he could survive that, too. :)
sq>> We're just 1.5 hours from the end of the day, and no message from him
sq>> stating "He is risen! Atheists are empty!" What a letdown!
FR> What's horrible is that no other fundy stepped in to fill his shoes.
FR> Perhaps we've actually made some progress.
Don't fool yourself. Jones is a small fish in a big pond, filled with the
likes of the Youngs and the Harpers and the Stringfellows and the other
hatemongers who "Spread the good news" to cover up their bigotry.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Crucifixion of Christians
|Date: 05 Apr 97 15:33:42
EID:390b 22857c20
MSGID: 1:124/9005 33467189
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e0c1f5a
PID: GEDW32 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Mercurii dies April 02 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Shelby Sherman:
ss>> CUTUD, Philippines (Reuter) - Devout Christians had themselves
ss>> nailed to wooden crosses while others beat their own backs with whips
ss>> in a bloody re-enactment of Jesus Christ's crucifixion on Good Friday
ss>> nearly 2,000 years ago.
FR> It's a damn shame they don't nail themselves up for a month by the
FR> millions. It's also a damn shame they usually breed.
I think that we're going to see more and more of this as 2000 approaches.
I was watching something last night about "dangerous millenialist cults,"
and one group was another UFO group (I didn't see them as a "cult," though...just
a club for new age yahoos) that thinks all the aliens are going to land
here in 2001. They showed a little parade with the participants carrying
signs that represented all the planets whose denizens are going to pay us
a visit. If I didn't know any better, I'd think this was a Candid Camera
stunt.
So long as these idiots kill themselves and not innocent, disinterested
parties, I have no problem with it. They want religion, they cry about
how all of our forefathers died for their right to be religious, goddammit,
let them be religious then.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 05 Apr 97 15:37:54
EID:5087 22857ca0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 33467255
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e0c1f62
PID: GEDW32 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Mercurii dies April 02 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad George Harper:
GLH>> Removing "kid" gloves:
Hmmm...perhaps some kind of reference to sacrificial lambs?
GLH>> You stupid, asinine blowhard!
Now THERE'S an insult that's guaranteed to get under one's skin. I'm still
reeling from the absolute viciousness of the ad hominem in question.
FR> Do you always revert to an illiterate rant when faced with an embarrassing
FR> question, George? And shouldn't your resentment and anger be telling
you
FR> a little something about the viability of your occult beliefs?
You expect reason from those who have traded in their reason for religious
thumb- and nipple-sucking?
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 05 Apr 97 15:44:00
EID:7684 22857d80
MSGID: 1:124/9005 334673f2
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33428f3a
PID: GEDW32 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Rod!
Jovis dies April 03 1997, Dixit Rod Swift ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>>> We have a billboard out on I-30 for a local church, depicting
SQ>>> some kind of sicko rubber stamp that says "Paid in Full," and
SQ>>> blood drips from the thing. When someone wants to holler about
SQ>>> how offended they are about violence, I'm bringing this one up.
RS>> This is Must See Billboard I see ;)
SQ>> I-30 and Chaha, in Garland. You can't see it if you're going
SQ>> north/east, though.
Whoops! Not Chaha, Bobtown. Still, they're both close to each other. :)
RS> Let us hope that it does not get changed before I get back there.
I doubt it. It's been there since we've been living in this area, so that's
about four years.
We have an evangelistic "doomsday" church not too far from us. What bothers
me is that they've come here twice, looking for -me.- They leave their
kooky literature on the door, inviting me to come "fellowship" with them
on Sundays. Their billboard always has some kind of catchy "Heaven or Hell,
which for you?" slogan, and I dread what happens with these clowns over
the next few years. The lake is right next to their church, so maybe they'll
all jump into it and drown themselves.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 05 Apr 97 18:30:28
EID:ca81 228593c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 33469ae2
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 33442dfb
PID: GEDW32 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Don!
Jovis dies April 03 1997, Dixit Don Martin ad All:
DM> George Harper said "Portals Of Prayer Apr 2" to All, adding:
DM> OK, who sent the fundy into Mootherfucker mode?
When in doubt...spam.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Book
|Date: 05 Apr 97 18:57:42
EID:268b 22859720
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3346a126
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e89a54a
PID: GED3 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Jovis dies April 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR>> I have about 180 megabytes of archive materials going back
fr>> to the start of January. Should I put them onto a couple
fr>> of tapes and send them to you?
sq>> Time for you to buy a ZIP drive. You could get all that on two
sq>> disks. :)
FR> Tapes are still more common, though.
Provided that they're written in a format that the other guy's software
can read, yes. ZIP disks are ZIP disks, although I'll concede that more
people have rinky-dinky QIC-style tape drives than ZIP drives.
Just bought a JAZ drive m'self. This baby has 1 gig cartridges. :)
FR> I need a larger hard drive. I'm running out of space. I have an
I'm eyeballing a three gigger. Given that I may have to do some BackOffice
installations here at home, I might need that kind of space for tinkering
around.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Another for the FAQ
|Date: 05 Apr 97 18:59:56
EID:f2a9 22859760
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3346a246
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e89a54b
PID: GED3 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Jovis dies April 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
KY>> Will there come a time when "my work will be done," here?
KY>> Perhaps, but that will only occur when this echo has completely
KY>> changed.
FR> My guess is that Jelly actually believes this just as Prewett believes
it.
Every Fundy who prances through here has shown inclinations towards a Messiah
complex. They may innately believe that only -they- can save the unclean
heathens, and their masters probably reinforce that idea. They waltz into
here, demand that everybody listen up, and then flee the scene when they
hear "Fuck off my fucking stage," using "profanity" as an excuse. It gets
so tiring to hear how "uneducated" one is simply because one has learned
that saying "fuck" gets to the little bastards.
FR> No doubt they're told by their masters that all unbelievers will
FR> "know the truth toward the end."
Make assertions, back them up with threats that one cannot carry out. But
"Big Brother" will, of course.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Noah's Ark Hoax
|Date: 05 Apr 97 19:08:46
EID:bf87 22859900
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3346a434
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e89a54e
PID: GED3 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Jovis dies April 03 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Doug Schwandt:
FR> Sun Pictures and CBS successfully hoaxed 40 million viewers. Jammal
in
FR> turn hoaxed them. The ICR and Sun Pictures were so embarrassed they
FR> threatened Jammal with litigation if he didn't keep his mouth shut.
I saw about ten minutes on [I think] Hard Copy last night, devoted to the
Roswell "alien autopsy." They indicated that Kodak did NOT authenticate
the film to ~1947 (as was claimed in the specials), and a military photographer
said that the photography was not done by a military photographer given
that the camera was screened a few times by those performing the "autopsy"
(In other words, an amateur did the camera work.). A few special effects
guys came on and pointed out that the "alien" wasn't moved around a lot,
like one would expect in an autopsy, and they even pointed out a possible
seam on the "alien." They finished by doing their own autopsy, which looked
a HELL of a lot more lifelike (even my unconscious "It's blood" reaction
started to kick in :).
My point: Why have there not been two Fox specials and a commercial videotape
devoted to this hoax? [Rhetorical question] Why has the same not been
done with Sun and the ICR?
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Hey, asshole
|Date: 05 Apr 97 22:50:40
EID:3bc1 2285b654
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f96c86e
PID: FM 2.02
> In your past 13 messages you have striven mightily, and
> greatly succeeded, in gratuitiously insulting Fundy idiots
> in the worse possible, vulgar, and abusive way. Yes, in
> every case they deserve vilification and denunciation.
> However, constant verbal abuse does no one good here. In
> my messages I try to say only what I would say to someone
> directly in her or his face, though I do not always manage
> that restraint.
What exactly did you expect in HolySmoke? You know that reason doesn't
work upon those who aren't allowed to reason. Abuse at least makes them
angry and resentful -- perhaps enough to actually start thinking.
Aside from that, you're right, of course. Since I'm running a serious 501(c)3
organization now I should prompt others to do my baiting for me.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ If only earthquakes would hit every major city at the same time,
the world would be a nice place for a couple days - Shawn Swanner
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Plastic Forks and Grapes shop (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Film Tx Screenings
|Date: 05 Apr 97 22:52:51
EID:b697 2285b699
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f96c86f
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 345a0892
PID: FM 2.02
> * Forwarded (from: LPTexas) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd 1.10+.
> * Originally from TXLiberty@aol.com (1:382/87) to terry liberty-parker
> (1:382/804).
> * Original dated: Fri Apr 04, 04:00
> From: TXLiberty@aol.com
> The film " WACO: Rules of engagement" will be at :
Are there flame-throwing TANKS in this one, too?
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Ok, name on person that has witnessed a Monkey turn into a man.
- Chris Vetter
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Farrakhan in 1555
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:10:37
EID:6d9c 22864952
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce1
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 77f006a2
PID: FM 2.02
FR>> Washington Monument, he informed us, is 555 tall. Put a one
FR>> in front of that and you get the year 1555.
FR>> Yeah, I know, I was impressed, too.
FR> I _think_ it was the year that either MLK or "Malcome X"
FR> created the so-called "Nation of Islam."
jjh> Neither created the Nation of Islam. MLK was an Xian.
jjh> Bruddah Malcom was a follower of the guy (Elijah Mohammed)
jjh> who stole the Nation of Islam cult from it's founder (Wally
jjh> Fahrad). Elijah M. most likely arranged the murders of both
jjh> Malcolm X and Fahrad.
Here it is:
"There in the middle of this mall is the Washington
Monument, 555 feet high. But if we put a 1 in front
of that 555 feet, we get 1555, the year that our
first fathers landed on the shores of Jamestown,
Virginia as slaves."
Farrakhan lied like an fundy. The first blackish slaves arived in 1619.
FR> During the lengthy speech, the racist made a great many
FR> astrological, occult statements dealing heavilly with
FR> numerology. He's also a UFO nut.
jjh> Now wouldn't that be a hoot... suppose the Heaven's Gate nutballs
jjh> were right and there was a UFO that you could teleport to by
jjh> killing yourself...
I'm all for letting them find out. }:-} Farrakhan, like most religious
fundies, thinks the number 9 indicates a pregnat woman and that a 1 indicates
something hidden. He, like his Christian counterparts, love the number
19.
jjh> They get on board the craft only to find it's run
jjh> by the Nation of Islam and Ofays aint welcome.
Space them! I say.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Some people fall victim to dogma, and then others find the truth of
Christianity. - Ken Young (Utterly incapable of noticing the irony)
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Crucifixion of Christians
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:12:39
EID:dcbd 22864993
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce2
REPLY: 1:123/67 3344d084
PID: FM 2.02
ss>> Crucifixions Mark Good Friday in Philippines
ss>> Friday, March 28, 1997 5:10:00 PM EST
ss>> CUTUD, Philippines (Reuter) - Devout Christians had themselves
ss>> nailed to wooden crosses while others beat their own backs with
ss>> whips in a bloody re-enactment of Jesus Christ's crucifixion on
ss>> Good Friday nearly 2,000 years ago.
FR> It's a damn shame they don't nail themselves up for a month by
fr> the millions. It's also a damn shame they usually breed.
ss> It is interesting to note that none of these
ss> xtian fools opted to take the spike through the feet.
And yet the Heaven's Gate people actually acted upon their beliefs. These
nuts just want to show everyone else just how pious they are but they are
liars.
ss> I guess there is just something about a bone-crushing,
ss> tendon-ripping, permanently-crippling spike throught the
ss> feet that really test the ole religion, eh?
ss> They must not have had a Real True Crucifixation.
Doubtless they contrive elaborate excuses.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ How many days of the week are named after *Christian* gods? - Brian
Kolacy
April Fool's Day - Rob Burcham
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: David Worrell
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:14:01
EID:8c1f 228649c0
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce3
REPLY: 1:123/67 3344d084
PID: FM 2.02
By the way, David W. lost his password and telephone number for your system
or something. He's usually on us.undernet.org on #atheism. I have a telephone
number for him yet I won't post it to this forum. Can you contact me so
I can forward his number to you?
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ A believer's mind seeks knowledge just as the vacuum inside a CRT
seeks air -- and for the exact same reason. - Sean McCullough
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Plastic Forks and Grapes shop (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:14:28
EID:fd61 228649ce
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce4
REPLY: 1:123/67 3344d255
PID: FM 2.02
ky>> Maybe that is because in Guyana, it
ky>> wasn't just suicide. Many were murderered.
FR> I'll be fucked with a chalk board! You're right, Ken! And you
FR> brought up something I totally forgot about!
FR> Another thing which makes these Christians different, aside from the
FR> total lack of firearms, is the fact that they didn't drag their
FR> children with them.
ss> They did find a cache of weapons in a mini-storage rented by them.
Did it reach the traditional quantity?
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ That's it for now. I must get back to a real world. - James Randi.
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Plastic Forks and Grapes shop (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric L. Rice
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Delusional fantasies
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:17:08
EID:559a 22864a24
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce5
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 334320c6
PID: FM 2.02
ky> Your creator wouldn't be worth you worshipping Him?
dg> IS Dan's creator, Judith,
dg> Just as He is YOURS.
Just because you need to bow down to idols rather than learn doesn't mean
that your intellectual superiors are in any way concerned with your delusional
fantasies, Darryl, Darryl, and your other brother Darryl.
Your delusional fantasies is why your death cult has the bloody history
it does.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ "I hereby call upon the hordes of Satan and all the Demons of Hell
to
bring utter damnation and static cling to your next load of laundry."
- Robert Curry
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:21:29
EID:c14e 22864aae
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce6
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3344bfd0
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Greetings, Jim, in the precious name of go fuck yourself.
rs> Wouldn't Jimson need a penis to do that?
rs>
You're right, of course. And yet curiously I received no answer. }:-}
js> Man, you certainly know the language, Freddy. The foul
js> language that it. You talk that way in front of your
js> son? And then do you chastize him when he uses it back
js> at you?
In fact my sons know that there's no such thing as "foul language,"
only impolite language used in circumstances where it's not appropriate.
ky> Do you honestly expect anything different, Jim? You
ky> know how it goes. When people can't debate
ky> intelligently, they must resort to such juvenile
ky> tactics.
Which is why Ken thinks that diseases and poor crops are caused
by his deity constructs -- which he worships. Which is why these lunatics
beliefe in deity constructs.
rs> When fundies can't debate, the complain about their
rs> adversaries; it's a poor workman who blames his tools.
At least we're slowly forcing these nuts to acknowledge their own insanity.
ky> More than likely he does. People prejudice of
ky> Christians usually are pretty hypocritical.
FR> Thanks in advance, homophobic pig!
js> Evidence?
ky> Evidence?
rs> See, I told you he didn't know what it was! Neither one of them do.
"Brain? What is brain?"
And of course the homophobic pig refused to answer my question.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ The world's already ended several times over, I don't really think
anyone will notice if it ends a few more times... - Damien Wellman
---
* Origin: Drug or drinking problem? Call 1-800-662-HELP (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Jesse Christ Jones
|Sub: Seance for Jesse Christ Jones
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:24:26
EID:32ce 22864b0d
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce7
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33451ba2
PID: FM 2.02
FR> either group. The first group would be the Seance Miracle Working
FR> Group. The second group would be the Resurrect Brother Jones Working
FR> Group. After each group has at least three participants and it's
jcj> Do you mind if I resurrect myself? After all, my godling did
jcj> it and I should be able to follow in his dusty entrails.
I think it would work _better_ if you rebooted yourself, sure!
jcj> BTW, they did find the body, so I didn't give
jcj> my normal Easter Rant and Rave (cw) this year.
But you're a fundy! The facts shouldn't have stopped him from ranting.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Maybe He did say something and it just was not recorded. - Steve Bedard
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Jim the Hypocrite
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:29:08
EID:6d17 22864ba4
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce8
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 333dfcb4
PID: FM 2.02
RS> Why don't you be honest and tell us what you really want to do
RS> with gay people, Jim, huh?
JS> Leave em alone.
Staal the liar.
RS> What legislation would you enact?
JS> Ban 'gay pride' parades. I find them to be discriminating and a source
JS> of social unrest and upheaval. Have you ever seen a 'heterosexual
JS> pride' parade? Me neither. Both are unnecessary.
Just like them "darkie nigra mud people," no doubt.
rs> Jim wants to leave gays alone -- but that involves
rs> destroying their first amendment rights, kids :)
What's easilly obvious is that he and his "kind" don't see the hypocricy
or the irony of their hatred. Hell, they can't see the hate.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ The truth that disturbs you must be dealt with
somehow, so you call it bashing. - Robert Curry
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Jim the Hypocrite
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:29:43
EID:6d17 22864bb5
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ce9
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 333dfcb6
PID: FM 2.02
rs> Jim wants to leave gays alone -- but that involves destroying
rs> their first amendment rights, kids :)
rs> Rod "...into the hypocrisy file this one should go..." Swift :)
You know, we _should_ have someone maintain a hypocricy file.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ OK, here's your apology, Kev: go fuck yourself in your preferred
orifice with a dung-clotted serving spoon. - Don Martin
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Jim is a PROVEN LIAR! :)
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:34:53
EID:c663 22864c5a
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cea
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 333e0170
PID: FM 2.02
JS> BTW, my son told me last week that 'gook' is no degrading
JS> term in Korea where he lives and that the people refer to
JS> themselves as such with regularity.
Looks like Staal's "son" is just as evil and bigoted as "daddy."
JS> You are the liar and the Korean language educators (blind leading
JS> the blind?) have no clue as to what is going on in Seoul in 1997.
Oh yes, no it couldn't be that his son is a bigot, no.
rs> The two senior lecturers returned to South Korea in
rs> December 1996-February 1997 on holidays.
rs> Three have been in Korea less than 2 months ago, two for an
rs> extensive stay, one who had been living there.
rs> They all *KNOW* you are wrong. I took the printout of your
rs> message to them and asked for their comments. The only thing they
rs> had to say was the only time they heard such racial insults as
rs> "gook" was when ignorant foreigners were shouting them or screaming
rs> them at locals -- like "dumb gook", "fucking gook" -- etc.
rs> They were shocked and insulted by your slur against the South
rs> Korean in claiming something that simply is *not* the case.
We all knew Staal was a pathological liar, incapable of mouthing a truth.
RS> There is no such word in the Korean language, nor is it used as
RS> a formal NOR informal reference to themselves.
JS> Have go back to Seoul and check it out before they open their ignorant
JS> traps.
rs> Finding those words tasty, now that someone has forced you to eat them.
It's another aspect of him we already knew: His anti-woman, homophobic
bigotry also includes slures against Asians.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ The only thing wrong with masturbation is loneliness. - Al Schroeder
You've never tried it in a group? :) I thought that's what the
death cult was all about! :) - Rod Swift
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: quote file
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:36:11
EID:c845 22864c85
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ceb
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3342b29c
PID: FM 2.02
KY> I am still for everyone's rights, that has not changed. But part of
KY> our rights, is the right to take away the rights of others, if it does
KY> not go against the Constitution, and if enough want it.
Amazing. Imagine what his masters must program into him.
KY> Freedom of religion is protected by the US COnstitution. Sexual
KY> preference is not.
Such hatred and bigotry.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ No doubt he would be in a better position that most to know
if the Pope is a great whore or just an average whore. - David Rice
---
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|From: Fredric L. Rice
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: quote file
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:38:18
EID:626e 22864cc9
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cec
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3342b29c
PID: FM 2.02
KY> I am still for everyone's rights, that has not changed. But part of
KY> our rights, is the right to take away the rights of others, if it does
KY> not go against the Constitution, and if enough want it.
You, sir, are utterly evil. Your hatred and bigotry are protected by the
very same Constitution you wish to cut to pieces.
No wonder Christianity is the bloody death cult that it is.
KY> Freedom of religion is protected by the US COnstitution. Sexual
KY> preference is not.
The Constitution is protecting _your_ sexual preference, you homophobic
shit!
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Christians steal and then kill Jewish infants, cut open
their bowels, and read the future in the entrails. - David Rice
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ken W. should be locked up
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:39:50
EID:3b31 22864cf9
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090ced
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 334477aa
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Ken W. wants to murder 12-year-old rape victims. As a
FR> society shouldn't we lock-up such people who express such
FR> desires and force treatment?
rs> Yes, we should put them into mental institutions
rs> and cure them of their hateful intent.
I would much rather perfer that they be educated while young so that they
don't pick up such anti-woman hatred in their death cult. In our socity
he must first murder before he can be arrested. His stated desires are
not enough.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Can't fuck sheep in Montana? No problem. Move to Colorado.
- Fredric Rice
---
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|From: Fredric L. Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Who's murdering children, you homophobic pig?
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:44:44
EID:d66b 22864d96
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cee
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3344a70a
PID: FM 2.02
JS> I prefer the punishment of the one actually doing the job: the
JS> greed-fed and Satan-led child murdering slime doktor.
If you know of anyone who murders children, homophobic pig, I would suggest
that you go to the authorities and report it. Not doing so makes you an
accessory after the fact.
Well, pig? What's the case numbers? What local authority are taking care
of these cases of yours? Well? COULD IT BE YOUR MASTERS ARE LYING TO YOU?!
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ I am not a Christian, I am a Goatee. If I die, I just die, and if I
live, I live on a chair in front of my computer. :) - QUENTIN FAI
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Staal's Swaggart is a pedophile
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:47:06
EID:47b9 22864de3
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cef
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 334394a8
PID: FM 2.02
rs> Isn't it ironic. You're the one with the Swaggart
rs> bastard proclaiming his desires for a female child, no?
FR> But the Staal Promise Keeper is already trying to pretend-
FR> away Swaggart's "confession." I doubt we could get Staal
FR> to admit that his hero wanted to rape the seven-year-old
FR> these days.
rs> He still holds Swaggart to be a hero.
rs> His words. You may now go for his throat! :)
It seems that for most of these hate-filled bigots, they're hooked for life,
reguardless of what their masters are exposed for.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Not to mention the redoubtable Zip-Loc principle. When it
turns green, quit already! - Don Martin
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Skeptic Tank Staff
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:49:48
EID:7313 22864e38
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf0
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3343959c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Actually the mail has declined greatly since staff was added.
fr> Now people don't think they're singleing out a victim who hasn't
fr> any experience dealing with Christian bigots.
rs> This is such a shame. We have to do some evangelical
rs> atheism in the Christer newsgroups, methinks! :)
I don't consider it a shame. Previously hundreds of fundies thought I was
a single heathen with no experience countering their lies and no knowledge
which easilly would debunk them. Though individually -- if I bothered to
expend the time -- they got disabused of that mistake, once they learned
there was a staff to assist, they don't seem willing to try their lies.
It reminds me of Mormons targeting single white females and trying to cut
them away from the protection of the male.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ You apparently want the whacko flowers and light conference
down the hall. Just follow the trail of drool, and check your
soul with Winters at the door. - Hector Plasmic
---
* Origin: Bigotry is _not_ a "family value." (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Public Schools
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:50:52
EID:7bbd 22864e5a
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf1
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3343afa2
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Or organize into the KKK, Aryan Nations, Church of Jesus
FR> Christ Christian, Sword and the Cross...
> I have a whole slab more of "Christanic Domestic Terrorists" for
> you, including a group that believes that it is a good think to
> murder gays, Jews and people of colour! :)
> I'll attach the full post at the end of this upload packet :)
[...cuts...]
I'll grab them all!
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Evidence is not needed the Bible is. - Kenneth Mcabee
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Jim Staal's possible
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:55:57
EID:44cc 22864efc
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf2
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3343d296
PID: FM 2.02
FR> That's reasonable. Pretend they're "sick" so they can
FR> pretend there's a "cure."
rs> That's the exact thing. Have you seen their sickening attempts
rs> to parade around an "ex-gay" by the name of Michael Johnston.
rs> They are doing about a dozen cities this year, parading off their
rs> precious trophy, sucking in the gullible into sending in more
rs> money to help cure "more"...
Ironic, huh? A cult that dictates sexual dysfunctionality for all including
the priesthood -- and they have the audacity to point at the castrations
within the Heaven's Gate group as some strange ideology.
rs> Did you know these people peddle the idea that gays become gay
rs> because of the "absent father" idea. It's so Freudian. However,
rs> when you expose that they might be the absent parent... They get
rs> all upset about their own theory! :) :)
FR> No, I had no idea they were trying to defend such a
FR> nonsense belief. And I'll bet the irony doesn't even
FR> register among them.
rs> No, not at all. Wanna see a transcript from ABC's 20/20? :)
rs> It's fun when Baba Wawa gets into one of them over the Freudian
rs> theory.
I'll take a copy of everything you have.
FR> It'll never happen. What should be done is gay couples
FR> should sue the IRS for discrimination and get back
FR> ___ALL___ back taxes they deserve.
rs> When (not *IF*, *WHEN*) Hawaii finally rules in favour for equal
rs> access to marriage based on gender, the biggest class action
rs> lawsuit will be launched. There will literally be hundreds of
rs> plaintiffs, and dozens of plaintiffs (the US Government, every
rs> state, every federal government department administering
rs> discriminate laws, etc, etc).
And the homophobic bigots (like Staal) have will have billions of dollars
to throw into fighting against equal rights for all.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Blatant self-inflicted punishment...such as having to read your posts.
- Steve Rose
I believe God had it planned for you to read them all along.
- Nathan Dutton
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Prison Statistics...
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:58:24
EID:779f 22864f4c
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf3
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3343d25e
PID: FM 2.02
> Catholic 29267 39.164%
> Protestant 26162 35.008%
> Rasta 1485 1.987%
> Jewish 1325 1.773%
> Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
> Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
> Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
> Adventist 621 0.831%
> Orthodox 375 0.502%
> Mormon 298 0.399%
> ___------------------------- --------
> Judeo-Christian Total 62594 83.761% (of the 74731 total responses)
> Total Known Responses 74731
These probably match the population percentage closely.
> Not unexpected as a result. Note that atheists, being a large
> proportion of the population (about 8-10%?) are disproportionately
> less in prison populations (0.21%).
Some States have an atheist population in the 20%s if I'm not mistaken.
Oregon, as I recall, has the highest number of atheists.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ For your enlightenment, my statements are serious. - Trent Hall
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|From: Fredric L. Rice
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Well?
|Date: 06 Apr 97 09:59:57
EID:4196 22864f7c
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf4
PID: FM 2.02
Well, pig? I'm still waiting for that information on how births have been
outlawed here in the United States. What's taking you so long to come up
with it? Won't your masters allow you to post your "evidence" since it's
equally as valid as your deity constructs?
I'm waiting, dear. COULD IT BE THAT YOUR MASTERS HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU?!
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Condemnation inevitable, for the One Inpardonable Sin -- Instead
of living your life for yourself, You lived your life for Him.
- Kenneth Cavness
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Outlawed births
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:03:40
EID:1e4d 22865074
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf5
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33428ff2
PID: FM 2.02
KD> I found *birth* to be disgusting. Shall I outlaw that?
iJS> The pro-choicers have already tried and suceeded in doing that.
It's amazing what these fundies are told by their masters.
rs> Apparently BIRTH is now OUTLAWED in the US, kids!
No stupidity is wasted on a fundy.
FR> Yep, I caught this quote
fr> the first time I saw it replied to.
rs> Wasn't it great. Apparently Roe v Wade was a *law*,
rs> not a *court ruling* says Error-dyte Jim Snarl! :)
Not only that, RvW outlawed births somehow. Amazing!
Is it any wonder why religion manages to survive when reason is set aside?
FR> Amazing, that people like Staal
fr> are allowed to walk among us freely, huh?
rs> It's amazing we allow them to use our precious oxygen
rs> and energy, natural resources and sustain them with food.
That's their right as citizens just like anyone else's. To bad there isn't
a sanity test issued before someone is allowed to vote.
FR> Fuckers as mentally insane as Staal should require forced treatment.
rs> Do they make sewage treatment plants designed to treat raw human
rs> sewage that comes out of the mouth, as opposed to the bowels?
The fact is people _can_ be forced to undergo treatment _only_
if they're considered a harm to themselves or others. Other than that the
authorities are limited in what they can do to help these people.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Must go, Elvis wants to use the phone. - Paul Feonic
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Idiot Tax
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:09:16
EID:e60e 22865128
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf6
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33429212
PID: FM 2.02
rs> The idiot tax. I wonder how many of his church members would
rs> support the funneling of funds into house mortgages and fancy
rs> cars? :) :)
FR> As I recall this Christanic master had to pass the money on up
fr> the line to _his_ master. He had a "quota" he had to reach and
fr> hand in every month. If he didn't make quota, he was supposed
fr> to make it up himself some how.
rs> Oh, sounds like the Scientologists and their "Stats" level each
rs> week. Being "down stat" is a baaaad thing. You could be forced
rs> to eat rice and beans and do RPF :)
It's also an Ass of God brand lunacy as well, if what I read in "Don't Call
me Brother" is accurate (and it should be; Austin Miles was an Ass of God
minister of the highest standing.) He lost his personal fortune and his
health to the Christian cult.
FR> So not only was he cheating his sheep, he himself was being
FR> fucked over.
rs> That's how Christians like it.
Helps them get over the unmitigated ego of wanting to live forever. Makes
them feel worthy of "receiving" their selfish desires to live forever.
rs> They do? Fuck! How fortunate for me! :) :) So, are they making
rs> a profit? Can someone please ring them and ask for a copy of
rs> their balance sheet for the past 5 financial years?
FR> The Christanic mythologies tell Christanics not to borrow
FR> or lend with interest.
rs> It also says that you must give money to anyone who asks for it.
rs> Without question or expectation of it coming back. :) :)
rs> Jimson is expected to send me the title deed to his "stately"
rs> home-on-wheels! :)
And like all the other things they don't followin their mythologies, they
concoct elaborate justifications and pencil in what their gods "forgot"
to mention to escape having to do what their deity constructs demand of
them.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Airplanes are able to fly because God created the laws of nature
that allow it to fly. - Steve Bedard
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: HolySmoke Convention
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:14:11
EID:36fc 228651c5
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf7
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 334298ae
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Hotel security will be alerted to the probable threat. They
FR> certainly will be required to remove uninvited guests.
rs> Most definitely. And of course, the local police should
rs> naturally be informed of the convention, the nature of the
rs> opponents, and to be mindful of the problems of Christian
rs> domestic terrorists -- prior to the event. They may beef up
rs> local patrols in the area.
With a special list for those who advocate the murder of children and innocent
adults. The problem is, people like Ken Young and Darryl, Darryl, and his
other brother Darryl might be using fake names. We can keep Staal curbed
since we know his real name.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ And the blood & sap of endangered species splattered on the fenders.
- David Rice
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Murdering 12-year-olds f
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:17:28
EID:ca5c 2286522e
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf8
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33429928
PID: FM 2.02
FR> The history of Christianity would tend to underscore the
FR> belief that murdering innocent people without cause is
FR> certainly a good deed.
rs> What, with all those inquisitionary murders! :) And remember
rs> that Ken Whines believes that murdering innocent little 12 year
rs> old victims of rapes by their own fathers is a *good thing*.
FR> I wonder why Ken can't get arrested and locked-up for
FR> expressing that desire. In a healthy society he would be
FR> locked-up and treated.
rs> I think that his beliefs are almost a good enough reason to tell
rs> the local gendarmes that Ken has publically expressed his beliefs
rs> that all abortion providers, workers, and mothers who undergo the
rs> procedure are worthy of slaying...
No, they must first act upon their desires before they can be locked up.
As I understand it, if they've got easy access to a crime that they've expressed
interest in previously, the police can weigh the probability and acquire
a search, seize, and arrest warrant prior to a crime.
But the HolySmoke Central Committee doesn't have to play by the same rules
as the police authorities. We may judge in favor of heightened safety;
fundies willing to murder children, woman, blacks, and gays don't have any
special rights to grant them access to our conventions.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ And you can buy tortured beef just about anywhere. - Bill Wolff
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Promisefilth
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:21:34
EID:b98b 228652b1
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cf9
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33429a1a
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Wouldn't it be fun if the Promise Keeper cult were to
fR> demand that they dump the money into safe houses for women?
rs> Or rape crisis centres, or rape counselling, or even the struggle
rs> for equality for women in the workplace, and income parity!
FR> Yep. All those "Satanic" human, Civil, and Constitutional rights.
rs> Sacrilege, no?
Yep! After all, the laws of the gods superceed the laws of those with morals.
rs> Maybe they should be forced to donate all their
rs> money to gay student outreach and support groups on
rs> the campuses of high schools and universities,
rs> nationwide! :)
If these fundy bigotes expressed their hatred and intolerance in the work
place, they would likely be subjected to "sensitivity training" seminars.
At least that's being done with anti-women bigots in some places.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Fascism is fascism, David, no matter if it is cloaked
in swastikas or crosses. - David Worrell
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Sensitivity training for bigots
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:23:14
EID:289b 228652e7
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cfa
PID: FM 2.02
Greetings, All!
I know that there are so-called "sensitivity training" seminars for anti-women
bigots and assholes who open their yaps in the work place, but are there
an analog seminar for homophobic bigots?
Also, what do you think about these seminars? I hear that if the bigot
declines the "treatment," they're most likely to be fired from their jobs.
Does that seem fair?
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ The word you're groping for is "blasphemy." - Hector Plasmic
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Fred's little project
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:24:24
EID:0154 2286530c
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cfb
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33429a1c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> There is a project I'm engaged in where I _can't_ post
FR> publically otherwise I stand the chance of blowing that
FR> project away.
rs> Oh, ok! :) :) Well, hopefully the project will be over soon, yes?
FR> It's over. You'll have the list before you read this message, in fact.
rs> List? What list?
I sent you a list of the homosexual forums I'm reviewing. I'll send another
copy of the list. I'm able to participate name that my project is successflly
completed.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ If Adolph Hitler accepted Christ, the Bible is clear on that
subject! He will go to heaven. - Jerry Wilcox
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Gall the Staal
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:30:49
EID:9af1 228653d8
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cfc
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33429c76
PID: FM 2.02
FR> #1 Admit your a homophobic bigot
rS> I have evidence of this from IRC Logs :)
ijs> I guess you should post it or eat it, Rod.
FR>
rs> And I posted it. I can post it over and over and over
rs> again should he request. It's not going to go away :) :)
FR> It must gall Staal no end to have gays post in this forum
FR> and slowly acquire the respect that he thinks he deserves --
FR> simply because he's a death cultist.
rs> He's so upset that he tried to play "good gay, bad gay" with my
rs> partner :) Such a shame that he claimed that Christopher was "a
rs> reasonable type" (implying that I was unreasonable, and hoping to
rs> spread division and discord)...
Neat! What fun! Perhaps in a few years we'll be able to force him to instigate
a thought of his own.
rs> Just look, example-wise, at how Jim Staal and Ken Young are both
rs> publically scorned for their backward, illogical viewpoints
rs> thanks to their *own* devices -- their own mouths.
Thankfully we still live in a mostly civilized society. Staal and Ken belong
in Iran.
rs> What is more deft is the fact that sprung only from a claim that
rs> gays are subjected to governmentally-mandated discrimination
rs> through laws. That's all. Something that can be proven. I
rs> didn't make the claim that the discrimination was more than any
rs> other group's, only that it was intolerable and wrong.
And let's not forget the lunatic belief that there are no Christian terrorist
organizations.
rs> He also made some comments about how I'd
rs> deceived them all. :) :) Wahoo! I won! :)
FR> Too cool! It was easy, wasn't it?
rs> Yes, too easy. Maybe he can say "gook" again. He's apparently
FR> He may be trying to build on the fact that Negros often
FR> call themselves "nigger" when the White Man isn't around.
rs> He was trying desperately to build on a 'false parallel'. It's
rs> so sad. It's another one of his "don't blame us, we don't
rs> persecute *anymore*" -- they use the words of persecution.
I saw your debunking of the homophobic bigot. Now we can all add Asian-hateing
bigot to his list of accomplishments.
rs> Of course, he was lying all along.
There was never a doubt.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ If I repent anything, it will probably be my good behavior. - Marty
Leipzig
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Mr. Hunter can't Convention
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:35:40
EID:a4bd 22865474
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cfd
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33429cf0
PID: FM 2.02
rs> Mr Hunter is being told the facts of the matter now. It's ok :)
FR> Reguardless of whether he accepts the facts now, he's still
FR> advocating the execution of everyone with HIV. Because of that
FR> he is not invited to the HolySmoke Convention.
rs> I cannot tolerate his viewpoint, especially based on the
rs> ignorance in which it is founded. However, I don't think I can
rs> say I know him well enough to pass such an edict onto him that he
rs> cannot attend the HS Con.
His mistaken beliefs are anti-thema to what we do here in HolySmoke. He
advocates the internment of everyone tested as HIV positive and, I would
guess, he also would consider the internment or at minimum monitoring of
"potential" HIV positive people.
His attempt at equating HIV with air-borne communicable diseases is an ignorance
that I don't want at Convention. We need _some_ fundies to speak at the
Convention, of course, and perhaps we should include some atheists who harbor
such mistaken beliefs as well.
We'll have to get a concensus. Perhaps only the fundies which advocate
violence against innocent people should not be invited and everyone else
should be.
FR> He's welcome to his opinion, obviously, yet I won't have it.
rs> I believe that if he is not a gun-totin' nut of any kind
rs> (Christian *or* HIV-Fearing *or* any other type), he may be
rs> allowed to come along.
I'll ask.
rs> I'm still hoping Al can come along. He'd
rs> make a great centre of scorn! :)
I asked Al to come back to HolySmoke yesterday. I wouldn't mind seeing
him at Convention. He would make a great centerpiece for one of the buffett
tables.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ You are nothing but a stupid atheist pig, with the IQ of a democrat.
- Christopher Calabrese
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Mr. Hunter Can't Convention
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:44:24
EID:f673 2286558c
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cfe
PID: FM 2.02
I question the responsibility of allowing Mr. Hunter to be invited to the
HolySmoke convention in August of 1988. Mr. Hunter himself isn't the actual
focus of my concerns; he's a specific example, however. More: I question
the safety of participants who may not wish to mingle and meet with those
harboring dangerous beliefs. (We must also consider the goals of our Convention
(which I see as being fun and informative.)) I've decided to have security
at the Convention yet there remains further issues to answer in reguards
security.
Mr. Hunter advocates the internment of HIV-positive people and equates HIV
with air-borne diseases. This is the second atheist I've seen in six years
who harbors such beliefs. We're all entitled to our beliefs, certainly,
yet damn few of us atheists advocate the suspension of Constitutional rights
of a minority group. That's traditionally the desire of the Right Wing
extremists among us -- theists all. What do we all feel safe with?
We split this into atheists and theists.
Theists which advocate the murder of innocent people should be
post hoc excluded from participation. We want honest Christians
to attend and participate. We probably also would like to have
a few rabid fundies organize a picket of the convention to get
the media involved, allowing the HolySmoke Central Committee to
pass out flyers. It would be fun to have a rabid fundy give a
speech. Yet I think we must exclude those who advocate the murder
of children, women, gays, and others for our own safety. We
_certainly_ don't want the media to pick-up on the participants
holding such evil beliefs and misrepresenting us.
Atheists, however, who harbor beliefs that HIV-positive people
should have their rights suspended may or may not pose a threat
to security at the Convention. It's a difficult call. It's
certainly not what we 'Smokers advocate and it's centainly not
something we want the media to represent us as.
What do you think? Who is invited and who is not? Who do you feel comfortable
eating lunch and dinner with and sleeping in the same room with and who
do you not feel safe around? Since I'll be collecting information about
the Convention and organizing it, I will abide by concensus and most likely
by majority so you guys and gals make the calls as they come up, okay?
We have a year to get ready for this thing. Let's make these decisions
early.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ If I prove there is a God, will you shut up? - Stewart Harris
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Heaven's Gate
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:48:03
EID:5ffa 22865601
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090cff
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33429de2
PID: FM 2.02
FR> But Christian groups _are_ tolerated.
rs> That's the fact of the matter. The media refuses to call a
rs> terrorist a terrorist if it occurs in the US when the terrorist
rs> is a Christian.
FR> Yep and taking a look at the news of late, they don't
FR> properly call cults which suicide _Christian_ brands either.
rs> No. They do not. The Heaven's Gate cult is a Christian cult.
rs> What is more, the media was hesitant to report the background of
rs> the cult leader.
I've heard a couple of Christian masters comment that the Heaven's Gate
master was "selectively using the scriptures." Isn't that what _all_ of
them do? Even the ones that pretend the mythologies are inerrant?
The only difference I see between all the brands is that the Heaven's Gate
group actually acted upon their beliefs. Their faith was real.
rs> I'd like to point out now that the reason that Applewhite (alias
rs> 'Do', 'Bo' and 'Nincom') and Nettles (now deceased, alias 'Ti',
rs> 'Peep' and 'Poop') got together is because Applewhite went to see
rs> a shrink in Houston, TX.
rs>
rs> You see, he was the son of a religious minister, was raised
rs> Christian, and was (*shock!*) gay!
Some of the bigots in this forum will demand that that negates his Christianity.
rs> See, Ken Young doesn't understand the relevance. This case is
rs> just one example of what happens when you try and "cure" gays --
rs> you just get people who are so fucked up in the head that they
rs> form "celibacy" cults for Jesus and chop of their nuts, and ask
rs> all their cult members to adopt celibate androgyny...
Enforced sexual dysfunction always screws-up someone. Look at every Catholic
priest. Most of them seem to manage well enough if their faith is strong
yet pedophilia is epidemic among them.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Got great news: been off the medication for months now. Life is
indeed good! - Jim Staal (suffers from MPD)
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Child Abuse
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:50:26
EID:9e54 2286564d
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090d00
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33429f12
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Make a guess which "profession" contained the highest
FR> percentage of _verified_ incidents of child rape? Or is a
FR> guess even needed?
rs> Not the Christian domestic child rapists, perchance? :) :)
rs> Rod "...namely the clergy!" Swift :)
FR> Gee. How'd ya' know?
rs> It was just an educated guess. The pedophilia endemic in
rs> Christian churches of all types -- Catholics, Protestants,
rs> Pentecostals too -- is just too hard to ignore.
We need to get Prewett back in here. He hates Catholicism with a passion!
It would be great to see if he thinks only Catholic masters have a problem
with child rape.
rs> I like the fact that at one point here, a number of subscribers
rs> in Perth in a local echo were attacking me for being gay, as it
rs> was obvious most gays were child abusers (note, not the other way
rs> around -- "child abusers being gay", but "gays being child
rs> abusers).
Typical.
rs> Their church founder was charged only weeks later in a pedophilia
rs> scandal that was endemic in their young, evangelical, charismatic
rs> church. I was completely exonerated at that point :) :)
Of course you were. You could have held your breath for as long as it took.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ "Will do Satan's work for food." - David Rice
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Staal denies Christian Terrorists
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:51:52
EID:fcd4 2286567a
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090d01
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3342a944
PID: FM 2.02
RS> Sue, there's nothing to suggest that Grand Rapids is safe from
RS> Christian domestic terrorists. Why, it was only about 3 weeks
RS> ago when DETROIT (just down the road) had their own Christian
RS> domestic terrorist who killed three innocent people in a bank.
iJS> there are no 'christian terrorists'.
rs> Boy, this guy is fun.
It's cute! You and I both listed perhaps a dozen Christian terrorist organizations
and he ignored them all.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Indeed, if there were no God, I would _have_ to be selfish, I
believe, because there would be no one else watching out for me,
and no reason to put anyone or anything ahead of me. - Jesse C. Jones
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Holy Cow, St Petersburg!
|Date: 06 Apr 97 10:55:27
EID:1a58 228656ed
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090d02
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 334547e8
PID: FM 2.02
> Among those scheduled to speak: a tax-protesting minister from Missouri,
> a Holocaust revisionist from Idaho and a Nebraska pastor whom one
> human-rights activist describes as "a hardcore racist and anti-Semite."
> "We're good people. We're Christians," pastor Dave Barley said. "We're
> promoting the Christian Gospel,
Ironically, the guy's telling the truth. They _are_ keeping with the history
of their cult.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ In no way am I your physical or mental inferior and I refuse to
be addressed as one, you drooling asswipe. - Lynne Rosendale
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Crucifixion of Christians
|Date: 06 Apr 97 11:02:31
EID:5ff0 2286584f
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090d03
REPLY: 1:124/9005 33467189
PID: FM 2.02
ss>> CUTUD, Philippines (Reuter) - Devout Christians had themselves
ss>> nailed to wooden crosses while others beat their own backs with whips
ss>> in a bloody re-enactment of Jesus Christ's crucifixion on Good Friday
ss>> nearly 2,000 years ago.
FR> It's a damn shame they don't nail themselves up for a month by the
FR> millions. It's also a damn shame they usually breed.
sq> I think that we're going to see more
sq> and more of this as 2000 approaches.
I don't doubt it one bit.
sq> I was watching something last night about "dangerous
sq> millenialist cults," and one group was another UFO group
sq> (I didn't see them as a "cult," though...just a club for
sq> new age yahoos) that thinks all the aliens are going to
sq> land here in 2001.
I hope they bring back Elvis.
sq> They showed a little parade with the participants carrying
sq> signs that represented all the planets whose denizens are
sq> going to pay us a visit. If I didn't know any better, I'd
sq> think this was a Candid Camera stunt.
It's amazing what people are capable of believing just because they want
to. We look at such nonsense and wonder how humans are capable of such nonsense.
The Human brain must not be fully evolved -- else evolution stopped quite
some time ago and we all ended up profoundly broken.
sq> So long as these idiots kill themselves and not
sq> innocent, disinterested parties, I have no problem with it.
sq> They want religion, they cry about how all of our forefathers
sq> died for their right to be religious, goddammit, let them be
sq> religious then.
Interestingly enough that's been the concensus. James Randi considered
the mass suicide to be a shame yet I think he stated that simply to rub
Bill Bell's nose into the fact that ignorant beliefs spouted on the airwaves
can prompt people to kill themselves.
No atheist I know has suggested that the suicides was anything other than
too cool.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Drunk or sober, it makes no difference, my position has been
consistent throughout all of my postings. - Rick Vanderzwaag
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 06 Apr 97 11:03:58
EID:b7a8 2286587d
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090d04
REPLY: 1:124/9005 33467255
PID: FM 2.02
GLH>> Removing "kid" gloves:
sq> Hmmm...perhaps some kind of reference to sacrificial lambs?
Perhaps he wears them when he masturbates.
GLH>> You stupid, asinine blowhard!
sq> Now THERE'S an insult that's guaranteed to get under one's skin.
sq> I'm still reeling from the absolute viciousness of the ad hominem
sq> in question.
Yes, I'm sure the intended victim was devistated.
FR> Do you always revert to an illiterate rant when faced with an
fr> embarrassing question, George? And shouldn't your resentment
fr> and anger be telling you a little something about the viability
fr> of your occult beliefs?
sq> You expect reason from those who have traded in their
sq> reason for religious thumb- and nipple-sucking?
Nope. Not a chance. I do hope to make him even more angry and
resentful, however.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Will there come a time when "my work will be done," here? Perhaps,
but that will only occur when this echo has completely changed.
- Fundy Ken Young talking about HolySmoke
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Book
|Date: 06 Apr 97 11:06:22
EID:78ca 228658cb
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090d05
REPLY: 1:124/9005 3346a126
PID: FM 2.02
sq>> Time for you to buy a ZIP drive. You could get all that on two
sq>> disks. :)
FR> Tapes are still more common, though.
sq> Provided that they're written in a format that the other
sq> guy's software can read, yes. ZIP disks are ZIP disks,
sq> although I'll concede that more people have rinky-dinky
sq> QIC-style tape drives than ZIP drives.
I've seen _some_ difficulties getting tapes read, yes. Ryan Shaw sent me
his archives and I tried reading them at work -- didn't work. I can read
them here at home, however. I don't know what the difficulty is at work.
sq> Just bought a JAZ drive m'self. This baby has 1 gig cartridges. :)
I don't like removable, though.
FR> I need a larger hard drive. I'm running out of space. I have an
sq> I'm eyeballing a three gigger. Given that I may have to do
sq> some BackOffice installations here at home, I might need that
sq> kind of space for tinkering around.
It seems that three and four giggers are damn near the same price as a one.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ ... In Jesus Christ name I bind all evil sprits off of this echo NOW.
- Steve Willis
I am an Evil Spirt. I'm still unbound. Your little spell didn't work.
- J. J. Hitt
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Messiah Complex
|Date: 06 Apr 97 11:10:33
EID:77db 22865950
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090d06
REPLY: 1:124/9005 3346a246
PID: FM 2.02
KY>> Will there come a time when "my work will be done," here?
KY>> Perhaps, but that will only occur when this echo has completely
KY>> changed.
In actual fact this echo _has_ changed considerably since its inception.
Atheist people have learned a great deal about how to successfully debunk
Creationists and bigots. The fundies flow through here like the tide and
learn nothing.
FR> My guess is that Jelly actually believes
fr> this just as Prewett believes it.
sq> Every Fundy who prances through here has
sq> shown inclinations towards a Messiah complex.
Every one of them probably convinced themselves they're "called upon" to
participate here.
sq> They may innately believe that only -they- can save
sq> the unclean heathens, and their masters probably reinforce
sq> that idea.
I don't doubt it. All the others were "not TRUE Christians."
sq> They waltz into here, demand that everybody listen up, and then
sq> flee the scene when they hear "Fuck off my fucking stage,"
sq> using "profanity" as an excuse.
Hell, they flee when they hear "Got any evidence for that claim? Any at
all?"
sq> It gets so tiring to hear how "uneducated" one is simply
sq> because one has learned that saying "fuck" gets to the
sq> little bastards.
It's a useful tool. Knowing how fundies will react with fear to simple
words is very useful.
FR> No doubt they're told by their masters that all
fr> unbelievers will "know the truth toward the end."
sq> Make assertions, back them up with threats that one
sq> cannot carry out. But "Big Brother" will, of course.
Yep! Just like the two clowns who drove by a couple of weeks ago. When
asked if they have evidence for their fictional constructs, spout off about
how we'll all be shown tyhe proof when we're dead.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Thou shalt not use pepper, nor allow it to be used. - Robert Curry
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Noah's Ark Hoax
|Date: 06 Apr 97 11:12:52
EID:36b4 2286599a
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 30090d07
REPLY: 1:124/9005 3346a434
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Sun Pictures and CBS successfully hoaxed 40 million viewers. Jammal
in
FR> turn hoaxed them. The ICR and Sun Pictures were so embarrassed they
FR> threatened Jammal with litigation if he didn't keep his mouth shut.
sq> I saw about ten minutes on [I think] Hard Copy last night,
sq> devoted to the Roswell "alien autopsy."
I heard that "Turning Point" and "20/20" was going to cover the hoax.
sq> They indicated that Kodak did NOT authenticate the
sq> film to ~1947 (as was claimed in the specials), and a
sq> military photographer said that the photography was not
sq> done by a military photographer given that the camera
sq> was screened a few times by those performing the "autopsy"
sq> (In other words, an amateur did the camera work.).
Oh yes, it probably debunked utterly -- yet guess what percentage of the
believers watched the show you did? And of those who did, guess what percentage
included the show in on the government conspiracy.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ We were blood brothers, pals forever. He was my very best friend.
Nobody else could see him. I now know he was just pretend. - Dan Barker
---
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:11:33
EID:5c1f 22858160
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78067529
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d765a
DS> dead before they were found. Still, I cast my vote for
DS> CYANNIDE GAS, delivered through the ventilation system.
DS> Since these guys were all computer whizzes, the chances are
Why would you say an ignorant thing like this? Since Prussic acid (cyanide
gas) leaves a specific pathological sign, being that the cytochrome system
of oxidative phophorylation become irreversibly tied up, then there would
be little or no evidence for what you claim.
Know the facts before you say something stupid again.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: Reading Incomprehension
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:17:45
EID:d66d 22858220
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7806809f
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d765e
DS> God created everything good and beneficial in its original form.
DS> After adam and Eve sinned, it didn't stay that way. Think
Did you forget to provide your evidence that there was a god to do anything?
Yes you did. Present it now so we don't have to laugh at you.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: George Harper
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:19:01
EID:71dd 22858260
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78068421
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d765f
DS> Aren't you glad we deal with such estute, articulate people, who
DS> are willing to support their contentions?
Answer the question, Fundy. Quit your shuffling. Why are there so many
contradiction in the bible?
If you are stupid enough to say that there are none, I will have to send
you all the contradictions in a post or two that will make you look even
more foolish.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: Arrogance
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:20:18
EID:23f0 22858280
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7806866b
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d7660
DS> The question is irrelevant, since there is only one true God.
DS> This is evidenced by recent discoveries by Jewish scientists
DS> regarding the Torah.
An ignorant statment of the highest magnitude. Who decided that any evidence
from the Torah indicates that there is only "one true god"?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: God Glodbreg
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Motion Passed
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:22:42
EID:3612 228582c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78068bf2
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d43dc7d5
GG>>I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD. Don't question me or I will turn you
GG>>into a nun.
KW> You're going to 'punish' him by locking him in with a bunch of
KW> lonely women????? Hey, could you exile me to a monastery?
No. You're personal hell is much different. I will turn you into a nun
also.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hit
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:24:27
EID:93e3 22858300
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78068edd
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 3228908b
JS> Dave, I never attended public schools.
Why does this not surprise me.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:25:27
EID:541a 22858320
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 780691e8
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 a47c04fc
JS> How can a place filled to the brim with Satan-led, greed driven,
JS> murdering slime doktors not do the job they are there for?
Did you serve int he military? Kill anyone while you were there? Would
you if commanded to?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: George Harper
|Sub: clones
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:28:08
EID:b393 22858380
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 780699ac
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d89450c
GH> BASTARD: illegitimate offspring of a woman; having no idea of
GH> who his father is << have my dictionary loaded on disk.
GH> Since Joseph was betrothed to Mary, and accepted the role of
GH> father to Jesus, your claaim to bastardy for Jesus "(bar
GH> Mary)" is patently groundless.
This won't fly. A bastard is simply an individual who did not have the
benefit of their parents being married. Even married, the child may not
know who his father is.
You cannot just define terms to fit your own agenda. Try real facts next
time.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Homosexuality
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:31:17
EID:887a 228583e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7806a21f
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 333f374e
ky>> And what do they base this on?
RS> Have you thought to ask them?
MG>> "If called upon to counsel a homosexual, the
MG>> physician's approach should in no way differ from the
MG>> approach to a heterosexual. No attempt should bemade
MG>> to try and direct him inot a heterosexual behaviro
MG>> unless he specifically requests such help."
ky>> Again, opinions..
Jelly has once again, painted himself into the fundy corner. He demaqnded
evidence. I gave it. He now claims them to be "opinions".
I have repeatedly asked him for evidence for his claims and have recieved
only what the bird left on the limb.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: question for the ALL KNOWING
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:34:42
EID:0283 22858440
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7806a8b9
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33402277
BK>> gimme some scientific investigations
DC> Try digging a hole to China and listen for the screams
DC> from hell as you progress.
DC> Get back to us when you get to China.
You will be going to hell, in the little room for those that commit sins
that have no name.
I hope when this moron gets to china, he calls you with his order for eggrolls.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: RE: A BABY + GOD = HE
|Date: 05 Apr 97 16:44:18
EID:cc94 22858580
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7806bd99
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d97c5bf
GH> A human "fertilized egg", given proper care, develops into the
GH> end product of "baby". The soul is present from the moment
GH> of conception; therefor, original sin is there also. If you
Do you understand the word "conjecture"?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: George Harper
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Colorado School of Mines
|Date: 05 Apr 97 17:51:54
EID:6f98 22858e60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78075ccf
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3341155d
DM> Dear Dr. Martin,
DM> I don't have a clue as to what evidence for the "Great Flood" is
DM> in our library. I am not aware of any such archival
DM> holdings. I would like to know the specifics that Mr. Harper
DM> 's claim.
DM> Jerry Higgins, Ph.D., P.G.
DM> Assoc. Prof. of Geology & Geological Engr.
Say, Goerge. You're a fucking liar.
\
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Got any leftovers?
|Date: 05 Apr 97 17:53:07
EID:1081 22858ea0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78076116
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 33414c7a
DM> Part 1 is enough--saved to disk. Got any more?
The mood to write does not come often to me, but I thought that the last
six months horror show, pushed into the last few days would be enough.
You are welcome to use it as you see fit...but don't show my wife...PLEASE
she takes this stuff seriously.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 05 Apr 97 18:39:49
EID:f261 228594e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7807e385
RH> Mandatory testing will weed them out. Ignorance is no excuse.
Mandatory testing and subsequent quarantine sounds like a good idea to at
least corral the bug, but in real life, it is simply not that easy.
As you well know, the pathological events of AIDS are many years removed
from the infection. The time of seroconverseion can be many months away
from the time of infection so that a test based on serum antibodies is useless.
You may get loads of people that are infected and will not be positive.
Say that you only let 1% of the positives out as uninfected. How long will
it take A
IDs to get the foothold that it has today? It is a long known fact that
you cannopt keeps people's pants zipped up.
There is anitgen detection and PCR detection of RNA sequences in the blood
or spinal fluid. these are expensive and time consuming. They are close
too 100% in efficiency,b ut that small percentage that might slip thorugh
is enough to getthings rolling again.
If you look at the epidemiology of a disease like AIDS you find that since
ther are those that are more at risk and since the pathogen eventually kills
it's host, you can make a statistical model of how many infection will occur
and how many will die. The truth of the matter is that while the numbers
of new AIDS cases is going up, the rate of new infections is dropping off.
We are crossing over the edge of the epidemic and if the HIV does not evolve
to a more efficient infector, it will likely die back to small numbers of
new cases, becomeing a rare bug.
The cost of testing and quarantine is atronomical when it will likely do
no good and our educatiional programs teaching intelligent persons how to
avoiud the disease will accomplish the same thing at a fraction of the cost.
I have no love of druggies, sexual promiscuous persons, or others at risk
that can change their life habits and reduce the risk of AIDS infection
to the rest of us. AIDS can show to be a sort of social Darwinism where
the less acceptable social specimens die out. Time will tell. I just don't
see letting the governemtn waste MORE of our money to achieve the same ends.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: J.C. Kibler
|Sub: News Article
|Date: 05 Apr 97 18:51:46
EID:3c6d 22859660
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7807ea21
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3341dd76
JK> REUTERS, March 31, 1997
JK> Biblical city of El Y Mhoosk (Eli Muusk). Head dig team
JK> archaeologist Gerrold Gantbim will release information on the
JK> find to the press at a dawn news conference tomorrow in
^^^^^^^^^
APRIL FOOLS, MORON.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: J.C. Kibler
|Sub: Repent NOW!
|Date: 05 Apr 97 18:52:54
EID:1745 22859680
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7807eaf4
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3341de24
JK> TAKE THAT, YOU GODLES HEATHERN SCUM! CRIST WILL HAVE YOUO ALL ON
JK> A BARBEQUET SPIT IN HELL FOR BLASFEMY!
Can we have good potato salad with it, Troll?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: ACT LIKE A CHRISTIAN
|Date: 05 Apr 97 19:02:56
EID:d1df 22859840
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78080374
BW> ROTFL! You perceived his comments appeared to be one of a
BW> Creationist. Not I! As I perceived Sagan's comments to be one of
BW> an opened minded scientist, who freely admits that we don't
BW> have all of the answers. And oddly perhaps from your point
BW> of view, we still don't. My I suggest that you move from
BW> under that rock, which you probably live under.
And so, like the moron that you are, you now wnt to claim that the quote
from Sagan AS YOU POSTED IT reflects his ideas on the subject of evolution?
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 05 Apr 97 19:26:20
EID:19f7 22859b40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78083b63
REPLY: 1:105/24.12 139ea22c
EM> I know some smart and decent ones, too. I wonder how often
EM> they question their faith...
Intelligent people question everything that they believe.
Actually, you cna test a person's faith, but you can't quetion faith. You
cna question data, but faith requires no data so it cannot be questioned.
You either have it or don't have it.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 05 Apr 97 19:43:53
EID:e33e 22859d60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 780883cb
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33395f0e
MG>> Can you be a dipshit AND a christian?
RS> Commonly. My question: Can one NOT be a dipshit, and a
RS> Christian? :)
I certainly don't want to generalize. Can you be gay and not a dipshit?
It's an unfair question. Can you be unthinkiing and a dipshit? This is
in my mind, a different matter. Those that stop thinking are good candidates
for religious fundamentalism, or any other kind of fanatacism that comes
along.
Those are the samll percentage, but they are the ones that are fun to ridicule.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: Re: The BM Blues Pt. 1
|Date: 05 Apr 97 20:00:05
EID:d312 2285a000
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78088993
CB> the all powerful god invented really thick corned beef sandwiches
CB> with Russian dressing dripping out the sides. it was man, in his
You are of course, correct. I bow to the master and claim the heads of
all those that claim Thousand Island and Russian dressings to be the same.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 05 Apr 97 20:01:52
EID:e1ec 2285a020
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78088e15
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e0c1f58
ag>> However, there are no Christian Jews - period.
FR> Do you wish to make the millions of Christian Jews world-wide
FR> simply disappear? Or is it enough for you to simply refuse to
FR> admit they exist?
I don't really wnat to get involved in something this meaningless, but the
two groups are completely different as to be mutually exclusive. Who are
the millions of world wide christian jews?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: The BM Blues Pt. 1
|Date: 05 Apr 97 20:04:10
EID:4b03 2285a080
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78089403
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e0c1f68
FR> I would immediately get another wife. That kind of smacks of
FR> exortion.
I once knew a guy who had a fiancee' that delived the following ultimatum:
Either me or the cigars go.
He's still smoking, 30 years later.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 05 Apr 97 20:09:38
EID:5d49 2285a120
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 78089f52
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e970818
GH> CLOSE TO HIM
Is this all you have to offer, five minutes after Don gave you one of the
greatest debunkings in echo history?
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: The BM Blues Pt. 1
|Date: 05 Apr 97 20:11:33
EID:af33 2285a160
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7808a404
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b727fffe
KW> Martin, may I please place this in the holysmoke area of my web
KW> page?
Have at it. I love to generate hate mail.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: A quote for you
|Date: 06 Apr 97 13:08:34
EID:1629 22866900
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3347a347
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33428958
PID: GED3 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Rod!
Jovis dies April 03 1997, Dixit Rod Swift ad Steve Quarrella:
RS> And the quicker we can cure him from his sick, degenerate
RS> deathstyle choice. He subscribes to the sickest, most harmful
RS> ethos system on this planet. It kills children, loves
RS> uneducation, loves poverty, preys on the weak, etc, etc. *wink*
Have they been howling for medical references? I've been watching the exchange
between Goldberg and the Jellymeister. It's pretty hilarious to watch the
guy acknowledge medical journals, and then turn around and say "That's your
opinion. My opinion is..."
RS> The sooner he escapes the life of hatred he leads, the better.
These days, it is my sincere wish that these clowns all join cults who are
imminently to commit suicide (Like that one, Br'er Jesse?).
RS> That is why the US is a *CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC* with democratic
RS> (barely) elections, not a democracy.
These days, the Fundamentalists are trying to turn it into a "People's Republic,"
kind of like the one in China.
RS> Of course. However, I have a good aim, and excellent
RS> gun-instruction in my youthful years. I can take down kangaroos
RS> (nice moving targets to hit) at more than 450 yards.
I'd rather that you be shooting at the Fundies. I've never seen a 'roo
up close, so save a few for me. Fundies, we got, and in spades.
RS>> I swapped "blacks" into the statement he made and he whined,
RS>> because he sounded like a racist bigot.
Of course, I guess there's a difference in the 1990s between "homophobic
bigot" and "racist bigot."
Mr. Hart: "Because I'm a sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot?"
Lily Tomlin: "Bingo!"
SQ>> Forty years ago, people like him wouldn't have whined, as
SQ>> that kind of bigotry was more acceptable (but not right).
RS> That's right. You're 100% on the ball! The bigotry never goes
RS> away, the target group just changes.
And to some degree, the last target group really didn't change in some areas
of the country. Ask Donald Wildmon what he thinks of non-WASPs. Or David
Duke.
RS>> Why is it that his statement is NOT bigotry in one case, yet is
RS>> bigotry in another, when it deprives each group (gays OR blacks)
RS>> of the SAME rights?
" But I don't HAVE the special rights that the homosexuals want!"
SQ>> Has Ken explained this one yet?
RS> No. Care to ask him again? I think we all should. Ken?
RS> [cc'd to Ken]
SQ> RS>> *boggle*. And he claims gays are equal and that CHRISTIANS are
SQ> RS>> MORE persecuted than gays -- see my response to that one! :)
RS> Did you see my response to that claim of his? :) :) It's
RS> reposted in this packet, to him, if you wanted to read it.
I don't see it.
RS>> You do realise, just as people of caucasian racial extraction
RS>> were called "nigger lovers", you will be called a "queer lover",
SQ>> I've been called worse. Might as well say that I'm a
SQ>> person of Northern Italian extraction. :)
RS> Hehehe. I still don't get it. Is this a particularly US-Italian
RS> cultural paradigm?
No. It's a Sicilian thing. To a Sicilian, it's a major insult to be called
something other than a Sicilian, just like it is to a non-Sicilian to be
-called- a Sicilian. My father and our Roman neighbor got into it one time,
and it was pretty ugly, with each trying to out-Italian the other. This
kind of shit doesn't bother me, just as the label "queer lover" or "homosexual"
don't (but DO bother people in other circles).
RS>> Buchanan would make a good President.
Bumper sticker rhetoric: "The last time we had a Buchanan in the White
House, civil war erupted."
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 06 Apr 97 13:22:42
EID:5256 22866ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3347a3ba
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 333e1d62
PID: GED3 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Rod!
Dies solis March 30 1997, Dixit Rod Swift ad Ken Young:
RS> Yet there are hundreds of thousands of gay Christians in the
RS> *fastest-growing* Christian denomination in the world! While
Since when did the LDS church accepts homosexuals? :)
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 06 Apr 97 17:19:56
EID:9e34 22868a60
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3347dbbc
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33428a86
PID: GED3 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Rod!
Jovis dies April 03 1997, Dixit Rod Swift ad Steve Quarrella:
RS> Oh, it's a classic :) :) :) :) Can we call them domestic
RS> black-collar terrorists too? :)
Just "terrorists" works fine. Amazing how the country as a whole looks
at the nuts in the Middle East and says "Gee, what a bunch of crazies,"
yet OUR crazies are "religious."
RS> But of course. You see, they would like to play both sides.
RS> While their religion is in the minority, they are all for the
RS> first amendment -- when they are the majority, they don't want it
RS> so they can outlaw *other* religions. Typical, no?
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Love is hate."
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:12:56
EID:64ce 22838980
MSGID: 1:207/212 23238523
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333c5bd2
On (29 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Biologically trapped. Just as someone with a physical disability would
KD> feel trapped in his/her wheelchair. Just as I feel trapped in a
KD> depressive brain at the moment.
KY> So, are you saying that homosexuality is a disability or handicap?
An innate difference.
KY> But see, when one feels trapped, the best thing to do is not accept
KY> the current situation, but try to do whatever possible to overcome it.
Overcome and change are not always synonymous.
... Few women admit their age. Few men act theirs.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: George Harper
|Sub: You forgot to answer
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:56:12
EID:9850 22838f00
MSGID: 1:207/212 a63fcd7a
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e097786
On (01 Apr 97) George Harper wrote to Karen Davis...
GH> Well, Karl will know the answer before we will...unless he chooses to
GH> start believing in the True God, and follow His guidelines, he may get
GH> the chance to meet ol` Adolf face-to-face, and can ask him then.
where is your evidence?
... "Of course, foolish hobbits, The Answer is...AGGGGHHH"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:56:30
EID:3861 22838f00
MSGID: 1:207/212 0c976565
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e097787
On (01 Apr 97) George Harper wrote to Karen Davis...
GH> Actually, it all evolves down to who sleeps on his stomach being the