God Damned Fundies!
|From: Becke Jones
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 13 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:9c04 206d1800
On 10 Mar 96 10:44am, KAREN DAVIS wrote to BECKE JONES:
KD> On (08 Mar 96) Becke Jones wrote to Kenneth McAbee...
BJ>> You should've been able to figure that one out by the context in which
BJ>> it was used... Mysogyny is "hating women". Ask Staahl for
BJ>> enlightenment, that's his area of expertise...
KD> I hate to admit it, but a quick check of the dictionary indicates that
I
KD> put too many y's in there. It's Misogyny. That's what I get for
KD> messaging at 6AM.
Yeah, I thought about it myself after I posted....checked the dictionary,
and
you are right...that's what I get for not checking 'ole Webster..
Becke
... Meaningless gods cannot grant what they do not have.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 151
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 13 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:d0b9 206d1800
On 9 Mar 96 09:16pm, DAN CEPPA wrote to BECKE JONES:
->> On 03-07-96 03:00, Becke Jones got back to Preston Simpson
PS>> As some of the more observant amongst you may have noticed, I've been
PS>> absent for nearly a week. This is not my fault (no Satanic curses,
no
BJ>> Undoubtedly, not as much as _I've_ missed being away for nearly a
BJ>> year!! It's good to be back...=)
DC> You where here a year ago... Must've missed that!
Hmm...only spoke to you a few times last time around...I was a fairly regular
poster for quite a few months, until I moved and lost my feed...
DC> Have some more fun, and take it easy on Preston. After all,
DC> he just recently got his god diploma. As he can get testy and
DC> is not quite familiar with his newfound powers, give him a
DC> Twinkie. Besides, that's part of his official title!
So 'ole Preston finally made it to godhood, huh? ;)
Becke
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 151
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:27
EID:d2f6 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c83
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Don Martin Cult Christianity wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DM> I think that personality types are generated in part by
DM> the culture in which the kid is raised. Consider the
Certainly so.
DM> well-known survey in which Caucasian Americans attributed
DM> their good grades to the fact that they were smart, while
Americans are too used to being number one to remember a time
when they weren't.
DM> Oriental Americans were convinced that their working hard
DM> was responsible. There is a whole lotta space between those
Imagine that. Working hard for a grade.
DM> When I speak of Calvin rationalizing Christianity and
DM> the strength of his influence in this country, I did not
DM> mean that the Christians were any good at intellectual
DM> pursuits, just that they attempt to practice them. Notice
True; I've met some Christians who I consider to be remarkably intelligent
people--but they are few compared to the many I've met who aren't.
DM> that the fundies here invariably respond with chapter and
DM> verse for the Bible (a simulation of rationality) when asked
What they're saying is essentially, "It works for me, why shouldn't it work
for you?" Unfortunately, thinking people have realized that there isn't
an
instruction manual for life.
DM> for evidence. It is only when the hope of rationality is
DM> stripped from them that they give themselves over to the
DM> pure emotionalism of shrieking "IS NOT!"
Of course. If you held a belief that x was true, would you like it when
some wicked old thinking person told you that x was bunk?
PS> Therefore, IMO, intellectual religions are
PS> very nearly oxymorons and self-defeating. Religion shouldn't be about
PS> thinking your way into a state of religious bliss. It's about providing
PS> a release, even for a little while, from what Shakespeare referred to
PS> as the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
DM> The consolation is appealing.
Yes, it is, and that's one reason why non-religionists have such a tough
row to hoe, so to speak. We have to deal with life on realistic terms and
it can be a hard thing to admit that shit happens and no invisible god is
going to fix it.
... Coming soon- DOOM III: What the HELL?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: John Oliver
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:28
EID:42b7 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c86
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh John Oliver Hello! wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JO> Am I getting out? Actually, this is a test message to see if the FD
JO> mailer is making it out? Please respond, flames accepted!
JO> Internet:joliver@turner.lamf.uwindsor.ca
Sure thing. Your message made it out here to sunny Memphis, TN.
... Death & his dog- "Fetch...heel...play dead" "Spot? Spot?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:28
EID:6d57 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c87
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Barnett ANGEL FUNDY wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ>And where is your evidence for these angels? The Bible? And where is
your
BJ>evidence that the Bible is anything more then another fictional book?
MB> Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
The fact that it speaks of a global flood of which there is no evidence
is a good starter.
... DM's Advice: Dungeons are more fun when filled with undead cockroaches
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:29
EID:2bc8 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c88
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Andrew Masten Viability wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AM> adhere to Christ's teachings, have been the salt of the earth. Prior
AM> to the influence of Christianity, there were no big groups devoted to
AM> charitable work. In Christ's time, there were no food banks, no
Prior to the influence of Christianity, nobody was burned at the stake for
believing in the right god in the wrong way.
AM> abortion on demand, and the taxpayer pays for it. 30 years ago God
AM> was kicked out of the schools. Young people are now graduating who
Bullshit. "God" was not kicked out of schools (an omnipotent being who
was forced to leave some place? Not very omnipotent or omnipresent, is he?).
State-mandated prayer was seen rightly as being unconstitutional. Students
are still free to pray all they like, but they are not led by a member of
the faculty and there is no coercion for them to pray.
AM> find it difficult to fill out a application. Math and science skills
You are trying the old saw of linking increasing American inaptitude in
school with a lack of state-mandated school prayer. This is ridiculous,
Andrew. The Japanese don't grovel before your god, and yet their schools
regularly turn out students who are better-educated than ours. Admit it:
It isn't that "God" was "thrown out" of our schools. It's the simple fact
that our educational system's standards have dropped and our students are,
often times, too lazy to do the work that would put them ahead.
AM> even make the papers anymore. There are more unwed mothers than ever.
AM> And no wonder. Sexual promiscuity at younger ages is on the rise.
Psst. Andrew. Before what we refer to as the "Modern Age" came into being,
*everybody* was having sex at "younger ages." Reason? Because people didn't
live very long back then and it was to their advantage to get started
on having kids as soon as possible.
AM> Many, half hour sitcoms, are laced with sexual innuendo. Pornograhy
AM> is a billion dollar cottage industry. You can't go to a convience
AM> store without being assaulted with all manner of depravity.
Get off it, Andrew. By the standards you've laid down, the Bible is one
of the most pornographic documents ever written. It's chock full of
sex, incest, rape, violence, murder, and torture.
AM> Consequently sexually communicable diseases are also on the rise. And
Did you ever stop to think that a lot of this is due to the fact that there
are more people now than there were centuries ago?
AM> there becoming more resistant to medication. Then there's aids. Which
AM> I don't think is God's personel judgement, just the natural
AM> consequences of living a life contrary to God's plan.
Tell me why innocent children have to die as "consequences" to not groveling
before your god. Your god, as you've described him, is a murderer, a tyrant
of proportions almost unimaginable to the human mind.
AM> ill's of a society to be the result of Christianity. It was the
AM> Judeo-Christian ethic that made this country rise to world dominance
AM> in short order.
What Judeo-Christian ethic might that be? Invade a land that you say you
were promised and kill the inhabitants thereof?
... Seems like the fireball burned up all the treasure. Bummer.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: False Christians
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:29
EID:5c82 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c89
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell False Christians wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LC> Why is the Christian Coalition supporting Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan?
LC> Bogus Bob is a 33rd. degree Mason, and Pat Robertson said - in his
LC> book - that the upper echelons of the "lodge" were Luciferians. And
LC> didn't Dole say that his administration would be inclusive of
LC> homosexuals (an abomination to God).
LC> ... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
LC> -+- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
LC> + Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning?
LC> (1:123/319)
DW> Have I told you how happy I am that I left Memphis lately? :)
Not lately. I think I'll move to Atlanta. Better weather, more things
to do, and no having to share space with cretins like the one quoted
at top.
... Do not disturb. Already disturbed.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 13 Mar 96 05:46:00
EID:5dc1 206d2dc0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 57433d69
SS> I would say that both arose from a deep need for "answers." We
SS> humans really hate it when we don't know the whys and
SS> wherefores and there are always people who are more than happy
SS> to make something up and then become the "person who knows the
SS> answer." If they can make a buck from becoming a self-styled
SS> "expert," all the better.
RB> Like a 4 year old on her father's knee: "Daddy, where did I
RB> come from?" So it is with myths.
As in the old joke: "Daddy, where did I come from?" Daddy goes
through the whole routine only to hear, "Charlie is from Toledo."
... The worst ice cream flavor is probably squirrel.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
---
* KMail 3.10m Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:28:06
EID:7ae5 206d5b80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ac5cc2
On Mar 12 07:54 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
JH>> "They're made out of meat."
JB> What a strange coincidence. I just started reading this
JB> story last night.
You mean the above was part of a larger work? I just stole what I
saw in IUFO. If it's part of a larger work of humor/fiction I'd
love to know what the actual source is.
JB> It brought to mind not just Mooth, but
JB> several posters here.
A meathead flapping his meat at us? Yes, it does indeed fit...
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:38:14
EID:13e5 206d5cc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ac6dab
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3141e596
On Mar 09 20:09 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
DW> I know I'm Jehovah.
Are not!
I AM Jehova. Twice.
J.J. (Jehova Jehova) Hitt
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:51:38
EID:73b7 206d5e60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63aca6fb
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 1459dc71
On Mar 12 09:55 96, Terry Liberty-Parker of 1:382/804 wrote:
JJH>> 40 to 50 pounds of black powder
JJH>> 30 pounds of Potassium Nitrate
JJH>> 5 pounds powdered Magnesium
JJH>> 1 pound Igniter cord
JJH>> 90 pounds of powdered aluminum
[...]
JJH>> 1) Sulfuric acid
JJH>> 2) Nitric acid
JJH>> 3) Baking soda
JJH>> 4) Saw dust mixed with aluminum powder
JJH>> Not only had they ammassed a large arsenal (the above
JJH>> only represents one year's addition to what they already
JJH>> owned), but as evidenced by the chemical purchaces they
JJH>> were planning on manufacturing explosives.
TL> Might justify an investigation; not an assault.
The above are not grounds for an investigation, they ARE THE
RESULTS of the investigation that was conducted.
How do you think the situation should have been dealt with?
Do you really think that sending them a postcard asking them
to please stop would have worked?
And please try to reply without informing me YET AGAIN that
the only daily newspaper in Austin has the largest daily
distribution in Austin. I already know this.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: I'M WORKING ON IT
|Date: 13 Mar 96 12:33:20
EID:7b39 206d6420
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63acf0ea
On Mar 09 08:05 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
JB> Yeah, for some reason, my netmail will have 1:1/0 appended
JB> to BOTH the to: and from: lines when I upload it. Neither of
JB> us can understand what is going on or why it is happening.
Just guessing... (but sometimes you have to say something incorrect
just to prompt someone to correct you with the right answer. Every
one loves to correct others.)
That would be the ZoneGate address for Zone Zero if such a zone
existed. Do you (or your sysop) have Zone One defined as the
default zone?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:24:34
EID:35ba 206d8b00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63af9dec
On Mar 12 08:07 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
->> Non carborundum illegitimus.
JA>> translation of the middle word there will be a big help.:)
JB> 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'. (Loosely)
It's no wonder that it was the middle word that confused her.
The above isn't "real" latin, but rather an advertising slogan
used by a manufacturer of industrial abrassives. Their name is
Corborundum.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: THEY'RE AT IT AGAIN
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:38:52
EID:a902 206d8cc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63afd359
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314576f3
On Mar 12 13:05 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
DW>>> How many damned moderators do they have over there now,
DW>>> anyway?
JB>> A better question would be 'how many posters do they
JB>> have?'. I think about every 3rd person has some moderation
JB>> capacity after their name.
DW> Kevin informed me that they have 8 moderators (of some type
DW> or another). Considering that they only had seven regular
DW> posters (excluding all the gated internet stuff) when I was
DW> there last, that's some feat. :)
I loved how they had "specialized" moderators. Not only did
they have a "Science Moderator" (I've no idea what his function
was... maybe to keep scientifically accurate states out of the
echo), but they also had an "Alien Science Moderator".
But you're right... they had no one to moderate except each other.
I'd love to see them slam the door shut on the gated Internet
material, but they seem to think it's some sort of benefit.
It's like walking into someone's living room for quiet conversation
but first turning on the TeeVee, stereo, garbage disposal, blender
and dishwasher while playing bagpipes and lighting off six foot
strings of chinese firecrackers.
Some dialog may be possible under such conditions, but I don't think
it adds anything to the exchange.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Taking a break
|Date: 13 Mar 96 22:21:34
EID:d92a 206db2a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b24f95
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893F0E42
On Mar 12 09:39 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
DC> Then again, perhaps the ground has thawed enough so that
DC> John can continue work on the tunnel that he's digging to
DC> get into the Vatican vaults. I wonder if he's trying to
DC> dig around the world or straight through the core?
Just down to the first turtle.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Come Together
|Date: 13 Mar 96 22:23:11
EID:1c63 206db2e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b26537
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31467f03
On Mar 13 07:53 96, Steve Quarrella of 1:124/9005 wrote:
SQ> Did anyone point out to this person that John Lennon once
SQ> indicated that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus
SQ> Christ?
I'm not about to. It would result in an "Off With Their Head"
banishment. (Two to four weeks later, in typical Stocks
fashion.)
I had always assumed that IF the song was about anyone, it
was about John Lennon. Taken in light of Glenda's
"revelation" it seems OK for John to make that statement
because he WAS Jesus Christ.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 14 Mar 96 00:43:32
EID:d48a 206e0560
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b3a3fd
REPLY: 1:116/19 05117CEA
On Mar 09 08:05 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
JH>> Do you have access to a shortwave receiver? I know where
JH>> you can hear hour after hour of this racist crap. The
JH>> material is so wildly bizare it's hard to believe it's not
JH>> some complicated joke. Unfortunately, they're dead serious.
JH>> They're also organized, funded, armed and dangerous.
AS> Stuff like Grigor-Scott's? Followers organized, funded,
AS> armed, and dangerous?
AS> You have depressed me more than you know. Still, forewarned
AS> is forearmed.
Hells bells, Al...
You're in Nashville, home of WWCR (who just put a fourth transmitter
on-line recently). You probably don't even need a shortwave radio,
you should be able to pick them up on your toaster.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 14 Mar 96 02:03:30
EID:e118 206e1060
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b46544
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 9051bf03
On Mar 13 12:36 96, Karl Schneider of 1:170/309@fidonet.org wrote:
JJ>>KS>But they sure as hell DELETED a bunch of it...
JJ>> Such as?
KS> The Apocrypha.
The KJV translators translated the Apocrypha. And published it.
You'll have to blame the "Bible Societies" of the last century
if you want to point a finger at someone. They were the one's
who decided to exclude it from the Bibles they printed and
distributed.
The Bible in the format we are now familiar with is less
than 200 years old. (The KJV was translated almost 400 years
ago.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Found him!!!
|Date: 14 Mar 96 03:29:06
EID:1c80 206e1ba0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b524d9
REPLY: 1:352/266 31424F2C
On Mar 09 20:42 96, Masochistic Maiden of 1:352/266 wrote:
MM> Second one is the moderator on FIDO Magick. He at least
MM> goes by the title.
We've already had him in here. He's a little prig who doesn't
like "bad words", "personal attacks" or being asked to substantiate
his claims with actual evidence. He didn't last very long.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Join Censorship Lawsuit
|Date: 13 Mar 96 08:48:28
EID:2faa 206d4600
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 146de9f4
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from --Todd Lappin--> (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Mar 13 '96, 08:35
Apparently-to: Terry.Liberty-Parker@804.ima.infomail.com
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:51:30 -0800 (PST)
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin-->)
Jerry Berman from the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) forwarded
a
handy Fact Sheet about the CIEC lawsuit to me today. It does a nice job
of
clarifying what the suit is all about, and what makes it unique. I've
attached the full text below.
Meanwhile, as of 5:30 PM tonight EST, 22,237 Net users have registered to
join CIEC by signing up on the Web. That's super-impressive, but
registration will close on March 15. If you haven't done so already,
please steer your browser to:
http://www.hotwired.com/special/lawsuit
or
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/
Spread the word!
--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
=================================================================
CITIZENS
INTERNET
EMPOWERMENT
COALITION
1634 EYE STREET NW, SUITE 1100
WASHINGTON, DC. 20006
(202) 637-9800
FAX (202) 637-0968
Management Committee:
Jerry Berman,CDT
William Burrington,AOL
Judith Krug,ALA
Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition Litigation Fact Sheet
March 1996
In response to the indecency restrictions imposed on the Internet
by the Communications Decency Act (CDA), the Citizens Internet Empowerment
Coalition has been formed to challenge the law as violative of the First
Amendment.
The Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition (CIEC) is a large and
diverse group of organizations who share the common goal of protecting the
First Amendment and the viability of the Internet in the 21st century.
Its
35 organizational members include libraries, book publishers, newspaper
publishers, editors, advertisers, commercial online service providers,
Internet access providers, non-profit groups, and civil liberties
advocates. Over 10,000 individual Internet users have also joined the CIEC
effort. The CIEC is coordinated by the Center for Democracy and Technology,
America Online, and the American Library Association.
The primary goal of the coalition lawsuit is to establish in
constitutional jurisprudence that the Internet is a unique communications
medium, deserving unique First Amendment protection -- that it is unlike
the broadcast medium and, should receive at least the same broad protection
afforded to the print media. Coalition members believe that children can
be protected from inappropriate material online with the help of blocking
and filtering technology now available. Parents, not the United States
Government, are the best and most appropriate judges of what material is
appropriate for themselves and their children.
The Coalition law suit, ALA v. United States Department of Justice
et al. was filed on February 26, with a Preliminary Injunction Motion
filed later on March 1. The suit, handled by Bruce Ennis of the law firm
of Jenner and Block in Washington D.C. , has been consolidated with one
filed earlier by the ACLU challenging the CDA. A three-judge court convened
by the Federal Third Circuit Court of Appeal in Philadelphia will hear
evidence in the consolidated case through the middle of April, with a
decision expected soon after. The case will then go directly to the United
States Supreme Court.
Educating The Court On The Nature Of The Internet And Alternatives To
Censorship
CIEC's complaint and memorandum in support of motion for
preliminary injunction detail the history of the Internet and outlines how
the network operates. The CIEC intends to educate the court on how the
Internet functions and why the broad content regulations imposed by the
CDA
threaten the very existence of the Internet as a viable medium for free
expression, education, and commerce. Among other things, the CIEC
challenge argues that:
* The Internet is a unique communications medium which deserves First
Amendment protections at least as broad as those afforded to print media.
* In light of the unique nature of the Internet, the CDA's effort
to
graft old dial-a-porn regulations onto the Internet amounts to a total ban
on a vast amount of constitutionally protected speech between adults.
* The CDA will be ineffective at protecting children from "indecent"
or "patently" offensive material on the "world-wide" web. The net is
global.
* Individual users and parents, not the Federal Government, should
determine for themselves and their children what material comes into their
homes based on their own tastes and values. Easy to use and effective
blocking software and services are readily available for this purpose.
The full text of the CIEC complaint, along with other relevant background
information, and information on how you can participate in this landmark
case, can be found on the CIEC World Wide Web Page at
Impact of the Communications Decency Act
Liability under the Communications Decency Act (CDA) extends from
commercial and non-commercial content providers, web site operators,
libraries, universities, and online service providers who host or provide
material which violates the indecency ban. Although this case involves
a
ban on indecent communication on the Internet, the way the Supreme Court
resolves that issue will effectively resolve the constitutionality of a
later ban on offensive, violent, hateful or otherwise unwanted
communications online. In order to assure that Internet can continue to
be
a forum for the free exchange of valuable information and ideas, free from
onerous and chilling censorship, we are challenging the indecency
restrictions contained in the Communications Decency Act.
Relationship with Other CDA Challenges
The CIEC challenge is separate from the case brought by the ACLU,
EFF, EPIC, Planned Parenthood, and several other plaintiffs in the same
Philadelphia court on February 8, 1996. CIEC is working closely with ACLU
attorneys and the two cases have recently been consolidated. The CIEC case
will reinforce the ACLU's efforts while focusing on the unique nature of
the Internet and alternatives to government content regulations.
Membership in the Coalition
The Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition is a large and diverse
group of Internet users, businesses, non-profit groups, and civil liberties
advocates who share the common goals of protecting the First Amendment and
the viability of the Internet as a means of free expression, education,
and
commerce.
Named Plaintiffs In The CIEC Challenge
American Library Association
America Online, Inc.
American Booksellers Association
American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression
American Society of Newspaper Editors
Association of American Publishers
Association of Publishers, Editors and Writers
Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition
Commercial Internet eXchange
Compuserve Information Services, Inc.
Families Against Internet Censorship
Freedom to Read Foundation
HotWired Ventures Ltd.
Interactive Digital Software Association
Interactive Services Association
Magazine Publishers of America
Microsoft Corporation
Microsoft Network
NETCOM On-line Communications Services, Inc.
Newspaper Association of America
Prodigy Services Company, Inc.
Society of Professional Journalists
Wired Ventures Ltd.
Other Members Of The Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition Plaintiff
Americans for Tax Reform
Association of American University Presses, Inc.
Association of National Advertisers
Association of Research Librarians
Center for Democracy and Technology
Coalition for Networked Information
Media Access Project
Media Institute
Microsystems Software, Inc.
National Assoc. of State Universities & Land Grant Colleges
People for the American Way
Recording Industry Association of America
Special Libraries Association
Surfwatch Software, Inc.
University of California Santa Barbara Library
Over 22,000 Individual Internet Users
Center for Democracy and Technology
1634 Eye Street NW Suite 1100
Washington, DC 20006
(202) 637-9800 F: (202) 637-0968
email: jberman@cdt.org
http:/www.cdt.org/
* PROTECT THE INTERNET AND THE FUTURE OF FREE SPEECH IN THE INFORMATION
AGE *
Join the legal challenge against the Communications Decency Act!
For More Information, Visit the CIEC Web Page
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/
or email
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:14:07
EID:d7ea 206b41c0
MSGID: 1:207/212 a108fdba
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3141d9a6
On (09 Mar 96) David Worrell wrote to Karen Davis...
DW> Are you going to let him get away with calling you an xtian?
Well, unfortunately Styx doesn't have any rules against personal attacks
or defaming someone's intelligence in this echo... so all I can do is
correct him.
... "I remember doing the time-warp..."
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:17:43
EID:b4a6 206b4220
MSGID: 1:207/212 d5e98b27
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3141d87c
On (07 Mar 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Fredric Rice...
AM> You still haven't shown how the teachings of Christ can be used
AM> as a pretext for rape murder and torture.
The fact is, they *are*.
Look at the anti abortion murders and assaults.
Look at the fact that rape is highest in the Bible belt.
... "It's beyond me! Help me Mommy!" -- Brad Majors
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Istambul paraphrased
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:34:30
EID:0a65 206b9c40
MSGID: 1:207/212 955fbf0b
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B4390
On (08 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Masochistic Maiden...
MH> Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the
MH> Father but by me." This is either true or it isn't. If it is, then
MH> any idea of God which denies that truth is wrong. If it isn't true,
MH> then
MH> those of us who believe it are wrong.
And why would an omnipotent god send one man, or go down as one man, not
enabling the rest of the world to benefit from a messiah of their own
culture?
Why only one way? As a teacher and enforcer of rules, I find most
success in maintaining constructive, positive behavior by permitting
multiple choices. Particularly when I'm dealing with someone I need to
stop doing something. An example would be the choices I give children
when they're finished with their work.
... Monday is a hard way to spend 1/7th of your life.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: hell and dalmatians
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:42:23
EID:94f0 206b9d40
MSGID: 1:207/212 080b8e67
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B4399
On (09 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Rena Mcgee...
MH> So a wise father simply waits for *you* to decide whether you want
to
MH> come home or not. If you do, he rejoices and you are welcomed in to
MH> enjoy all the benefits of your father's house. If you don't, your
MH> father is very sad. But there's no way he can force you to want to
MH> come home, short of lobotomizing you. And destroying who you are in
MH> order to make you want to be home is too high a price.
But you can only come home via one road. Even though a map shows that
many roads lead home according to the map. He also says that I have to
lobotomize myself and be a submissive wife to some man in order to make
it to him. And believe in idiotic things which defy logic.
Since that human father forced me to go live in that rat infested
apartment in the first place, I see no reason to go back to him.
Particularly since he allowed a book to be published in his name
indicating that I'm less of a person than my husband.
... 1000 + messages and they call it a QWK packet??
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: face value
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:45:30
EID:24ab 206b9da0
MSGID: 1:207/212 4ae7c6c3
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B439B
On (09 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Kenneth Cavness...
MH> 1. People believed the resurrection very soon after it allegedly
MH> happened. Typically, such legends don't develop for decades or
MH> centuries after the death of a leader, and certainly not within the
MH> lifetime of people who knew the leader personally, especially people
MH> who opposed him. In Jesus's case, no more than five years could have
MH> passed.
We have no evidence that this is true.
MH> 2. There were a number of other alleged messiahs in the century or
so
MH> before and after Jesus. In all cases, when the leader died, the
MH> movement died or else found a new messiah -- sometimes a relative of
MH> the dead one. In Jesus's case, the movement grew much stronger after
MH> his death. And although there was an obvious candidate for a
MH> transferred messiahship -- his brother James -- there's no evidence
MH> that the Jesus-followers' confidence in Jesus ever waned.
Then why do the Mormons still exist?
MH> 3. Jews tend to make shrines of the tombs of fallen leaders. We saw
MH> this just last year when Rabin was assassinated. Yet there's no
MH> evidence that Jesus's tomb was ever venerated.
Puts the lie to the fact that they really believed what he was.
MH> 4. The disciples had been questioning and timid before the
MH> resurrection. Afterward, they became bold and fearless, suffering
MH> persecution, and some dying for their insistence that the
MH> resurrection had happened.
They were convinced they had a good thing going. No different than
Joseph Smith or the Bab.
MH> 5. Any of the several parties which opposed the Christian movement
MH> could have stopped it cold by simply producing Jesus's body. But none
MH> did.
Any of the several parties which oppose Mormonism could debunk it in a
minute if they produced several things. But they don't or it doesn't
work.
... Hey! Barney's NAKED!!!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hardy's full of what-else
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:48:12
EID:2b68 206b9e00
MSGID: 1:207/212 2016f401
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B43A1
On (09 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Martin Goldberg...
MH> But why is it that there are people who are well-educated in
MH> disciplines where evolution is assumed, who hold degrees from
MH> prestigious non-sectarian institutions, who reject evolution if
MH> evolution is so obviously true?
Because the idiocy of religious brainwashing knows no bounds.
... Avoid cliches like the plague -- They're a dime a dozen
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i [1]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:51:00
EID:d5c5 206b9e60
MSGID: 1:207/212 f0797fd9
REPLY: 1:116/19 0511AD96
On (09 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Karen Davis...
AS> One step at a time. So you concede they truly believed in what they
AS> espoused. Which includes...
There are other options, but strong belief is most likely. That doesn't
make it any different from other religions.
KD> Nope, not all of them. And not one of them was a witness to enough to
AS> agreeing on an occurance, and you have every reason to believe each
AS> individual believed it, and if they corroborate each other...I leave
AS> the conclusion to you.
They DON'T corroborate eachother, that's the problem.
AS> Okay. Now, notice, I am NOT saying I can prove this in a present-day
AS> court of law, since obviously I don't have affadavits of a witness.
AS> But suppose, hypothetically, that a dozen people come in and testify
AS> under oath about a particular happening, and THEY ALL AGREE? What
AS> would the PRESUMPTION of the court be? That agreement between
AS> multiple witnesses lends authority.
Unless they've been hoodwinked.
AS> Not totally, even if you exclude the Bible accounts, which we will
AS> return to. Josephus, for instance, writes of the death of James, the
AS> brother of Jesus and head of the Jerusalem Church, and places it
AS> circa 60 AD. (I will freely concede that the reference to Jesus
AS> elsewhere is obviously added on in Josephus.) Suetonius writes of
AS> Christian activity in Rome, circa 60 AD that occurs within the
AS> lifetime of living witnesses to the original
AS> happenings.
The Josephus stuff is a fraud.
AS> accounts. It is demonstrable, if nothing else but sylistic grounds,
AS> that the four Gospel accounts are by four different hands. So we have
AS> FOUR
AS> seperate attempts at narration/biography (the Gospels), one history
AS> (Acts), 13 letters by one contemporary intimately connected with the
AS> movement (Paul), two letters by Peter (although I have my doubts
AS> about the second being actually by Peter)...a witness, three letters
All of which are horribly different and contradict eachother.
AS> corrupted. Suppose that one large volume has multiple
AS> accounts--McCarthy's comments on John, Ringo's, George Harrison's,
AS> Mick Jagger's, Roger
AS> Daltry's, etc. Then, two thousand years later, someone says, "We can't
AS> believe anything about John Lennon...after all, we have only ONE book
AS> about him left, and it isn't independently verified". The NT is in
AS> much the same boat. They tried, as best they could to gather as many
AS> documents that they
Two thousand years later, that book would not be enough, correct. Even
if it were a compilation. 2000 years from now there will not be any
information as to how valid those sources were. Particularly if the book
had been through the process the Bible has been through. For example,
whatever group decided the Epistles of Paul were suitable for a holy
document automatically make the rest suspect.
... When I take over the world remind me to snub you -Brain
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i [2]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:56:51
EID:d5c5 206b9f00
MSGID: 1:207/212 06cc4383
REPLY: 1:116/19 0511AD96
On (09 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Karen Davis...
AS> thought were authentic about Jesus together in one volume. I suspect,
AS> if they left them seperate, you would have more respect for them. But
AS> it is still the same number of authors.
Not necessarily. A compilation has had one editor/compiler. There is an
attempt to justify the information put in it.
AS> instance. And some of them may be relying on a single source. There
AS> are four accounts of Jesus' death and resurection. And
AS> again...religious martyrs have been dying for centuries. That is
AS> nothing unusual. Nor is the religious person claiming to be in
AS> contact with God or a prophet of God unusual.
AS> What is unusual is that the followers AGREE that they saw Jesus
AS> AFTER He had died...alive.
They agreed they saw him after he was SUPPOSED to have died. Now if
people agreed they saw Nicole Simpson today, I'd believe we had a
resurrection on our hands. I'd think we were hoodwinked, first. You see,
Nicole's death was verified factually.
AS> of the apostles (a contemporary, though not a witness in the same
AS> sense--Paul's vision by itself proves nothing) that they ALL claimed
AS> to have seen such, that they endured flogging by the Sanhedrin for
AS> preaching such, that some of them were imprisoned and at least one
of
AS> them died in Acts for saying such (and tradition gives us more,
AS> tradition that even a renowned historian like Michael Grant feels is
AS> true in Peter's case, for instance) than we are left with a dozen
AS> people---actually more, there was
This is no different from any other religion.
AS> I venture to say you would not treat any other documents from the
AS> ancient world the same way.
I treat all legends and mythology the same way.
... Elvis isn't dead, he's just pining for the fjords.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
Y: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 11 Mar 96 20:00:09
EID:c1a4 206ba000
MSGID: 1:207/212 d96f84d3
REPLY: 1:116/19 0511B886
On (09 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Karen Davis...
AS> But the Baha'i didn't die for what they knew was a lie. I think the
AS> Bab DID think he was in communication with God, as did Baha'ullah.
I
AS> may have my own opinions on whether they were RIGHT or not, but I
AS> certainly grant their sincerity. But it is one thing to imagine a
AS> voice in your head, it is quite ANOTHER thing to have a dozen people
AS> hear the same voice...or to see the same person, AFTER his death.
Yet there is no proof he REALLY died. Or that it was REALLY him after
his death. They could have been hoodwinked about the death or the
identity of the person.
AS> years THE ELVIS BOOK is all that remains of the records of Elvis'
AS> existence. What would you say to a debator in 4000 AD who dismissed
AS> the idea of Elvis
AS> because ALL the information about Elvis was contained in one book,
AS> even though inside that larger book it had all that information by
AS> all those different authors? The Bible isn't a "simple" anything.
They would be wise not to consider it factual. Or use it as evidence of
anything. particularly if a religion developed around it.
AS> Certainly we have evidence of at least one death (James, in
AS> Josephus) and a general persecution (Nero's, in Seutonius). We
AS> certainly have more accounts of the Resurrection of Jesus than we
AS> have of, say, Hannibal's crossing of the Alps...with elephants, yet!
Josephus's accounts are demonstrably fraudulent.
You wouldn't believe them unless they were sealed up in a cavern,
AS> sealed by a stone, with a rotting body? Or do you mean because they
AS> weren't standing in constant vigil over the body? But even _I_ would
AS> have more doubts if it was the DISCIPLES who maintained a guard over
AS> the body. But the body was guarded...by guards of either the Romans
AS> or the
AS> Sanhedrin, who had no vested interest in Jesus.
They had no vested interest in making sure it was absolutely secure,
either.
AS> But look at what a different thing THEY are claiming. They are
AS> claiming they saw their beloved leader, AFTER HE DIED, alive again.
AS> That they ate with Him, touched Him, etc. That they all saw Him.
AS> It's a different claim. It's a much more specific claim. It is an
AS> event, not an opinion. And it is claimed by many, not just one.
ANd the only claims are in the Bible. Legend and myth. By people he had
been brainwashing for years.
... Politics: poli=many tics=small blood-sucking insects
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: LET ME GUESS(WRONG)
|Date: 12 Mar 96 19:47:00
EID:7973 206c9de0
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Brad Jackson <=-
SM> And I would suggest that all Bible believers find a church that is
SM> Mark 16:15-18 teaching.
SM> But I know they won't find ANY.
Actually, they would find some, tucked away in the back woods.
And they do handle rattlers and drink poison. Some die, of course,
but their faith was too weak, you see...
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: John Brawley
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Alien pussy
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:47:01
EID:b4b6 206d55e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 dfb665c1
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6391f240
On 11 Mar 96, J.J. Hitt wrote:
JH> JB>> Damn fine work, too. Do you know whether the genitalia
JH> JB>> were "fuzzed out" in the original, or only for the network
JH> JB>> broadcast?
JH> JH>> That was the doing of the FOX network. The video as
JH> JH>> marketed by Ray Santilli has no digital fuzz.
JB> Since I haven't seen the uncensored video, what _is_ there
JB> between the legs?
JH> A hairless crack.
Noted. Thank you.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Knowing others is wisdom, knowing yourself is Enlightenment--Lao Tzu
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 100/4 265 435 525 757 102/735 890 103/2 104/821
SEEN-BY: 105/103 107/411 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
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SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Posting
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:52
EID:bd80 206db880
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MH> Yeah. There's a few new names in the echo here lately, but no sign
that
MH> they're going to be any more open than the old names. At least not
yet.
Is 'openness' a one way street? Should theists be open to
the possibility of a natural universe?
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Larry Craig
|Sub: False Christians
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:79bc 206db880
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LC> Why is the Christian Coalition supporting Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan?
LC> Bogus Bob is a 33rd. degree Mason, and Pat Robertson said - in his book
-
LC> that the upper echelons of the "lodge" were Luciferians. And didn't
Dole
LC> say that his administration would be inclusive of homosexuals (an
LC> abomination to God).
Prewett's got it wrong. Kennedy's not the anti-Christ, it's
Bob (the Dark Prince) Dole!
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:ba5d 206db880
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14390116
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 214 days
JH> SW> ever here the tune Stairway to Heaven? of course you
JH> SW> have-there's a lyric in there that says "sometimes all of
JH> SW> our thoughts are misgiven."
JH>
JH> AT LAST! AT LAST!
JH>
JH> I've found someone who understands Led Zepplin lyrics!
Maybe he'll explain the lyrics of Yes next.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:b602 206db880
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14390117
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 214 days
DC> At the rate Mikey's twiting people, I'm suprised that he hasn't
DC> even twitted himself.
Wouldn't that be a 'twitorectomy' and require the services
of a licensed cash register repairman?
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:9b20 206db880
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DM> NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
DM> NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
DM> NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
DM> NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
DM> NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was
an
DM> NS> actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How cruel!
DM>
DM> Cruel to the ants and not all that kind to the anteater: imagine
DM> the creepy sensation that poor thing must have endured when taking a
DM> dump? Given that this animal eats nothing else, it must have been
DM> one of the most ardent cheerleaders for the original sin to take
DM> place before it starved to death.
Not only the anteater, but the scavengers must have had it
rough too. ...Please God, make SOMETHING DIE!!
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:caf8 206db880
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MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14390119
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From a message to Jim Germiquet:
DM> The "courtesy" this sort of verbal masturbation
DM> generally receives is that people will not bother to read
DM> your stuff except for its target possibilities. Have fun.
"Fundie at 2 O'clock. Josh McDowell approaching from the
rear. Firmament at high noon. Man your battlestations!"
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Apparent: A large, old, bossy person who tortures youths
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:3278 206db880
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 1439011a
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 214 days
Yakking with David Worrell:
LB> This sort of reminds me of Willy Wonka's contest -- which reminds me
of
LB> chocolate -- which reminds me of....YOU!
David's brown, tastes sweet and rots your teeth?
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
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|From: Coridon Henshaw
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: FAQ quote?
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:48:05
EID:e05a 206c9600
MSGID: 1:250/820 3145c743
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314207cd
*** Answering a msg copied to area PERSONAL.
On Saturday March 09 1996 at 22:35, David Worrell wrote to Coridon Henshaw:
JG>> It's a saying of Jesus. But who knows ? Could mars be a spiritual
JG>> planet ? Some say Jupiter is.
I don't read this area anymore. The FAQ is free for the taking if anyone
wants it.
--
Have YOU read the 'Communications Decency Act?'
Have YOU executed a Christian today?
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re:I want something New
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:43
EID:104c 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Germiquet <=-
-> On 03-08-96 05:18, Jim Germiquet got back to David Worrell
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited.
DC> He does??? Why not prove the evidence that your god even exists
DC> before you tell us what you claim your god can do?
Hi Dan.
I was just browsing, and found you spewing the same (give me
evidence line) to Jim. Can you not come up with something a
little better? You have not shown one piece of evidence to
prove that God does not exist. We have a book full of God's
promises, that come true even today. Yet you can not prove that
these promises are not coming true.
Dan are you afraid to open a bible and read the truth? Have you
lived in the darkness so long that it scares you to look at the
light?
Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full
of [darkness]. If therefore the light that is in thee be
[darkness], how great that [darkness]!
Pray Dan Pray, for guidence!
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: satan what a laugh
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:43
EID:e5e6 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan. If you mean a red guy with
JG> horns and a pitchfork, there is no point continuing this
JG> discussion. I havent seen him take that form. But I am sure
JG> many of us have seen him take the form of people like Charles
JG> Manson :-)
MG> What form have you seen him take?
Hi Martin.
I can't say I have meet satan in person, but he calls my BBS
just about every week. Or at least people claiming to be him. You
know what though he never calls back. Do you think he is afraid of
little old me? I don't think he is, I do however believe he is
afraid of Jesus. You see satan hydes from the light and is afraid
of him.
Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine
eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when is evil, thy body also full of [darkness].
John 1:5 And the light shineth in [darkness]; and the [darkness]
comprehended it not.
Are you afraid of the light that shines for all the world to see,
Martin?
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re:So Wrong So Wrong
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:44
EID:aa08 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
> And that is where you make your mistake sir. Jesus said "they will
> know you are christians by your love one for another".
FR> While ignoreing the rest of the bloody Christanic mythologies and the
FR> whole of world history. Adolf Hitler was no different than the
FR> thousands of tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him.
FR> The way one 'tells' a Christian is by their professed belief in the
FR> Christanic death cult.
Hi Fredric.
Where on earth did you get such information? Do you truly
believe what you wrote above? It is man lead by satan that does
these crimes against man. Please don't group me into some dream
world of yours, about christians. There are many that claim to be
christains but are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening [wolves].
Matthew 10:16 Behold , I send you forth as sheep in the midst of
[wolves]: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous
[wolves] enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
satan takes on many forms. It is not hard for satan to appear as
the light.
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for
ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed [appear] beautiful
outward, but are within full of dead bones, and of all
uncleanness.
So don't group true christains with the likes of Hitler and others.
Brad
... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Re: Angels
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:44
EID:5079 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Dawn Kleuser to Karl Schneider <=-
DK> Aw, c'mon, Karl, yer wreckin' my fun...
Hi Dawn.
Does this mean you don't believe that there are angels? Have
you read your bible lately? I don't know if I can count the number
of times God sent his angels. So I would think if God knows they
are around and they serve him, we can take it to be true. For God's
word is true. You believe in Jesus don't you Dawn?
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of
godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the
world, received up into glory.
This verse covers more then one topic for you Dawn. One God One
Baptism and One Salvation.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none
other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Look to your Lord and God Jesus Christ for all your answers.
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Re: Apostles Doctrine
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:44
EID:c0ec 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Steve Rose to Kenneth Mcabee <=-
KM> talking about it. But of course, I believe it, and have reason to
KM> want to talk about. What logic do you have to spend so much time on
KM> something you don't believe? Kenneth Mcabee
SR> Because, little Wormabee, you...much like your addicted-to fundy
SR> beliefs...are a nothing more then a great source of endless amusement
SR> to us. The fact that you don't even REALIZE this...makes it even more
SR> enjoyable.
Hi Steve.
What are these (Fundy Beliefs) you are talking about? I myself
believe in Jesus Christ! What about you Steve, what do you believe
in?
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall [confess] me before men, him
will I [confess] also before my Father which is in heaven.
Are you afraid to confess our Lord Jesus Christ to Be God? Are you
afraid your friends will make fun of you? Well Don't be Steve you
can say the words. Come on now Steve repeat after me, I love Jesus
he is my Lord and saviour.
If you would like I will post as much as I can about God to give you
some insight on the Love of Jesus.
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Re: Apostles
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:45
EID:f479 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to Steve Rose <=-
KM> Friday March 08 1996 08:54, Steve Rose mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> Steve,
KM> Actually Steve I do realize it, but we will see if your still
KM> amused about it, after judgement day. BTW you must lead a pretty
KM> boring life if the best thing you can come up with for entertainment
KM> is to try and convience Christian that the Bible is not true.....
KM> Kenneth Mcabee
Hi Kenneth.
Steve seems to be a lost soul. I think it is a christains duty
to try and help the lost sheep.
Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, , I have set
thee to [be a light] of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for
salvation unto the ends of the earth.
So will you be a light for Steve to look to in the darkness he
lives?
Jesus did not send us out to save the saved but to save the lost.
Luke 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together friends
and neighbours, saying unto them, [Rejoice] with me; for I have
found my sheep which was lost.
John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit
unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may
[rejoice] together.
Be strong in the faith of Jesus Christ, our Lord and God.
Brad
... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:45
EID:1700 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
(On 03-03-96 Michael Hardy replied to Dan Hunting)
MH> Perhaps you should open your mind a bit. If a "well-reasoned non
MH> believer" can become a Christian, perhaps there's more to it than
MH>you realize.
MH> How about giving him a fair chance to convert you? If there's
MH>nothing to it, then you've nothing to lose. If there turns out to be
MH> more to it than you realized, then you have much to gain.
Have you given the same chance to the Islamic faith? Oh,
sorry...they're obviously not as intelligent as you;)
Hi Dan.
Do you believe in the Islamic faith? I don't that is for sure.
At least I don't go around telling other people that they are not
intelligent, like you just did. How do you know how smart Michael is? Is
it because he believes in God, that you find him so smart?
You too could be saved Dan. It does however take a little work
on your side of the fence. But I am sure you can get the help you need.
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made
that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said
unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall
we do?
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in
the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive
the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are
afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save
yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day
there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship,
and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Now Dan if you will just follow the Apostles Doctrine you will be on
your way to a good Christian life.
Brad
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
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|From: CHRIS CAMPBELL
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:27:00
EID:5716 206d5b60
MSGID: 1:377/77 48ba5c85
TID: GE 1.2
JJ;
JH>On Mar 08 22:55 96, Mark Craig of 1:123/610 wrote:
JH> MC> At the end of the 1000 years Satan will seduce the nations of
JH> MC> the world, prior to Armageddon -- rv.20:7-15.
JH> According to the standard Premillenialist view of Revelation, the
JH> Millenium will be 1000 years of utopian existence (a literal Heaven
JH> on Earth). BUT... for some unexplained reason at the end of those
JH> 1000 years God will fuck everything up by letting the Devil loose
JH> upon the Earth.
From a dualistic perspective, one must simply maintain the
balance.(g)
JH> Why? What possible sense could this make? Why does God feel he has
JH> to prove himself to somebody by kicking Satan's ass a second time?
JH> Is it that God just plain enjoys destroying things?
You don't. I sure do! Worked on a demolition crew for a while, most
fun I ever had, well almost.(g)
---
* OLX 2.2 TD * Press any key to continue or any other key to be.
--- WC!/IM!/GE-PRO1.20!
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|From: CHRIS CAMPBELL
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:38:00
EID:6768 206d5cc0
MSGID: 1:377/77 48ba5c86
TID: GE 1.2
Don;
DM> Others have got this; you might as well:
DM> Personally, I have said many times that I would welcome ANY
DM> evidence of the existence of any god, and I have even specified
DM> indirect evidence that would be quite convincing, not only to
DM> me, but (I suspect) to all the wicked atheists here: the residue
DM> of the Noachan Flood.
So your limiting evidence to physical evidence?
---
* OLX 2.2 TD * Unable to locate Coffee -- Being Halted!
--- WC!/IM!/GE-PRO1.20!
* Origin: Longbow BBS! Tampa, FL (813)961-3653 USR V.34+ DS (1:377/77)
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|From: CHRIS CAMPBELL
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Quoting
|Date: 13 Mar 96 12:17:00
EID:802c 206d6220
MSGID: 1:377/77 48ba5c87
TID: GE 1.2
Don;
DM>LAter, you say to Dan Cepa:
DM> DC> Not quite... the nasty fact of evidence is required to support
DM> DC> a theory, as well as predictions based on that theory. Otherwise,
DM> DC> you may has well believe in the Easter Bunny.
DM> MM> Oh, the old must have evidence to exist thing. Uh try this. Take
a
DM> MM> colorblind man, and try to give him evidence that color exists.
Other
DM> One of the most frequent (non)responses we get from fundies to
DM>requests for evidence is the attempt to cite some problem with the
DM>perceiver when no evidence is seen. I have been frequently told that
DM>I do not see god, not because there is no god there to see, but
DM>because I "have hardened my heart" and am therefore incapable of
DM>seeing gods. How all these fundies know so much at long distance
DM>about the condition of my heart remains a mystery, but it is still
DM>irrelevant: is any evidence for the postulated god visible?
No.(g) I'm not being argumentative, well maybe I am (g), but could
you please explain why you feel that this 'evidence' must be physical
in form?
---
* OLX 2.2 TD * Back Up My Being? I Can't Find The Shadow!
--- WC!/IM!/GE-PRO1.20!
* Origin: Longbow BBS! Tampa, FL (813)961-3653 USR V.34+ DS (1:377/77)
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|From: George Charity
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:46:00
EID:35fb 206cadc0
MSGID: 1:381/152.0 14638ab0
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 20897f15
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8598
Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Karen Davis:
JG> I don't know much about the Constitution, as a Canadian but isn't
JG> there something about America being "one nation undivided UNDER GOD
JG> "?
Wrong:
This quote is from the "Pledge of Allegiance" to the flag of the United
States and wasn't included in that until 1957. It was included by some of
the most viscous people to ever belong to our congress.
---
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Two days to doom - take c
|Date: 12 Mar 96 19:06:01
EID:bf95 206c98c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6d120208
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
PS>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C wgah'nagl
PS>fhtagn.
PS> DW> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male
PS> DW> scum - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't
PS> DW> phase those of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
PS>
PS>I got your pic via e-mail recently. (Would have responded sooner, but
PS>the computer center got the bright idea of going down during spring
PS>break to clean up things and give everybody a brand-new randomly
PS>generated-password. I love bureaucracies.) You don't *look* like a
PS>Real, True Southern Male. You're not wearing a baseball cap with
PS>"CAT" printed on it, you're not wearing shitkicker boots, and you
PS>don't have a gut the size of Montana. You look more like an
PS>engineering prof or some such.
Dennis Miller, in other words.
... That's stronger than a garlic milkshake.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Enjoyment
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:34:02
EID:9ac5 206cb440
MSGID: 1:157/200 6d120219
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MM>KM> I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
MM>
MM>Hmmm then debunking fundies is ok for entertainment qualities?
Not just that. Much of the entertainment comes from my fellow heathens.
We have a large number of truly funny people here.
MM>I
MM>think for me that would depend on the persons character a bit. I
MM>really don't want to ruin a persons life just the get them to crack.
MM>For some, religion, or whatever type, is the one strong port on a
MM>very stormy sea. For others, its just a comfort.
MM>For me it's an intense curiosity.
Yes, but that port has no right to exist if, by existing, it is hurting
someone else. Fundamentalism hurts other people, and that is the
primary reason I object to it.
... Boy Scouts are better than Air Force: they have adult leadership!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Philosophy
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:35:03
EID:b312 206cb460
MSGID: 1:157/200 6d12022a
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MM>KM> I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
MM>
MM>That's what most things boil down to. People are driven by the desire
MM>to have fun! (And here I thought it was only girls.)
Of course. It's a biological imperative.
... Type hard. You are making 1,932,247 copies.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Url!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:37:04
EID:49c9 206cb4a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6d12023b
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JOANNA AMREN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JA>-> What have you changed to, pray tell?
JA>
JA>I don't know yet. I don't think I'm done changing yet.:) I'm still
JA>thinking a lot of things through. But I know I don't see myself as
JA>Christian anymore. I don't see how I ever could again.:) I guess
JA>I'll just start believing what I know is true because I've seen it.
JA>I've never seen any god, so why should I believe in one? I guess
JA>what I've changed to is...a free-thinker? I dunno...
I'm not trying to insult you, but I think you need to do
some serious thinking and figure out exactly what you do and don't
believe in. I realize it may seem silly and useless, but until you do,
you are wide open for any con man who is able to make you belive what he
wants you too.
... All the normal brains were taken.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Chad Osten
|Sub: Real
|Date: 13 Mar 96 06:03:18
EID:5dd0 206d3060
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 143811a3
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting CHAD OSTEN to BRAD JACKSON on 03-10-96
CO>what about those of us who have a problem because the bible
CO>contradicts itself so much? I have like 3 pages of contradictions
CO>(and not little ones mind you) of the bible that I could post here.
CO>How would we be able to follow something that is contradictory?
Accept it for what it is -- not a tome authored by the Almighty,
but a collection of diverse works by diverse persons responding to their
individual encounters with the "I AM" of all the cosmos.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/12/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
System halted - Press any key you like, it won't help.
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Monty Arch
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Angels
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:24:22
EID:31ab 206dbb00
MSGID: 1:236/64 2580ac99
TID: GE 1.11+
Styx asks-->
>>Was it wearing pink lace and white slippers with lots of glitter?
> > Only if my guardian angel was you.
>Well, since you're already in a fantasy world; it would be
>consistent that your fantasies about me would be equally absurd.
You wish you cross-dressing fairy.
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: T.P.R. Systems (219)744-0558 or (219)744-0455 (1:236/64)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:38
EID:3b41 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba15
-=> Quoting Rick Mcfarlane to David Worrell <=-
RM> Given the fact that the language that the Bible was written in made
no
RM> distinction between bats and birds (a fact noted in my previous post,
RM> but carefully Hectorized out of the part you quoted back), only a moron
JG> A common tactic when trying to take something out of context or twist
JG> it to mean something it wasn't intended to. Or if it shows the error
JG> of logic in their own replies.
NS> Actually, Rick was wrong here in that he said the language (sic)
NS> that the bible was written in made no distinction between bats and
NS> birds.
NS> In the bible there are the following terms for birds and bats:
NS> -------------------------------------------------------------------
NS> bat or bats `atalleph [Hebrew] {at-al-lafe'}
NS> bat or bats.
NS> -----------------------------
--------------------------------------
NS> bird or tsippowr [Hebrew] {tsip-pore'}
NS> birds bird or birds.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
So if this word was used, it could refer to both.
Also just because a different word was used, is it not possible
that they may have considered a bat just another species of bird,
like an owl or a pigeon or a duck.
NS> `owph [Hebrew] {ofe}
NS> flying creatures, including insects,
NS> birds, and bats.
Again, denotes by using the same word for all, an inability or
at least a lack of categorization to differentiate them in
certain instances.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> `ayit [Hebrew] {ah'-yit}
NS> bird of prey.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> orneon [Hebrew] {or'-neh-on}
NS> bird or fowl.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> ts@phar [Aramaic] {tsef-ar'}
NS> fowl, bird, or like-birds.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> peteinon [Greek]
NS> flying or winged animals.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> ptenon [Greek]
NS> of winged animals.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> /\ ba`al [Hebrew] {bah'al}
NS> | | owner, husband, adversary, master,
NS> | with | archers, babbler, mangiven, have, bird,
NS> | | confederate, and captain.
NS> \/ kanaph [Hebrew] {kaw-nawf'}
NS> wing, skirt, borders, corners,ends,
NS> feathered, sort, and winged.
NS> Essentially: ba`al-kanaph (winged babbler, aka bird.)
NS> -------------------------------------------------------------------
NS> So the bible clearly does distinquish, when it wants to, between
NS> birds and bats. Just not in the particular scripture that is being
NS> cited, I believe. How is it that I, a non-Xtian, have a better
NS> grasp of your sacred text than either of you do? You display your
NS> own errors.
While I admire your technical knowledge of the bible, the scribes and
pharisees were much more knowledgeable than even yourself, I am willing
to venture. But it was with this group of people that Jesus accused
of fulfilling the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit or
"true meaning" of those words.
You have only indicated that there are different references in terms of
the
appearance of the animal , not on whether it was still considered as being
a "type" of bird.
In fact by showing that a word stood for both bats and birds and insect,
you have shown a lack of distinction in terms of classification. SO a
bat may have just been considered a different kind of bird.
When did the "classification" of bird come into effect?
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: |15Realm Of Darkness |07DemosúMusicúArtúCoding (1:2424/1004)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 inerranti
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:39
EID:786f 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba16
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was an
NS> actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How cruel!
For me personal the "garden of eden" was more of a metaphor, even though
it was given a physical location. Once again the garden of eden had to
be a story that was handed down by "word of mouth" for many generations
until the written language came into being. So who is to say how much of
this information was meant metaphorically and how much was meant literally.
And do you really believe there was a fruit called "knowledge of good and
evil" ? Sounds pretty metaphoric to me.
Something along the lines of "Fruit of the spirit" , "Fruits of your labor"
etc.
So what is the "fruit" of the knowledge of good and evil ?
If Adam chose to decide for himself what is good and evil, what
would the "fruit" of that decision be ?
No longer was man just another animal lead by instinct. Man recognized
himself as a sentient being. Man wondered where did this idea of right
and wrong come from ? Does a cat have an idea of right or wrong ?
Why do I consider it a "sin" to eat a fellow human being. Do other animals
have this "belief system" ? Where did it come from this "knowledge of good
and evil"....
This is the type of thinking I engage in when reading the old testament.
I don't automatically just take it literally.
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:40
EID:6c8b 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba17
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
EJ> 1) he married his wife after she was impregnated with the firstborn
EJ> child 2) his latest deal formed a for-profit organization (IFE, owner
EJ> Robertson has no training in divinity instruction, despite having
EJ> attended Yale. Pat was converted by an evangelical minister and then
EJ> proceeded to announce "his calling". 5) The first station Pat Robertson
EJ> grabbed was flim-flam of a station owner who was strapped of cash and
EJ> wanting out of a television ownership. 6) Who are some of Pat
EJ> "flock" and there will be a link to Robertson.
JG> Your so called "dirt" didn't impress me. In fact it makes him look
JG> like a saint in light of the dirt that has been dug up of one of
JG> Americans greatest heros John F. Kennedy. If you are looking for dirt
I
JG> am sure you can find some on all of us. "For ALL have sinned and fall
JG> far short of the glory of God." And when you can't find enough you can
JG> misconstrue things and make them LOOK dirty when they in fact are not.
NS> Excuse me, but what happened to the end of number 2, the beginning
NS> of number 4, and all of number 3? Are you altering quotes?
I will often take out the middle of a quote to make it shorter and just
include the beggining and end to show the quote and context of the passage.
It is irrelevant what the dirt was in my opinion. AS noted in a later
message, I indicated that great men of god like David and Moses were
guilty of adultery and murder. All have sinned. Man is not a perfect
being. He is still undergoing the process of evolution. Now we are into
the spiritual evolution of man. Be patient, God isn't finished with us yet.
:-)
... He who dies with the most TAGLINES wins!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:41
EID:e73f 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba18
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> Adolph Hitler:
NS> 1% Dan Ceppa, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DC> Got evidence that Satan exists, John? If so, lets see it.
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan. If you mean a red guy with horns
JG> and a pitchfork, there is no point continuing this discussion. I
JG> havent seen him take that form. But I am sure many of us have seen him
JG> take the form of people like Charles Manson :-)
NS> Ah, then the answer is no, right? I've never seen Satan or anyone
NS> else take the form of another.
If "god" is a "spirit", as it says in the bible, then why can "satan" not
be a spirit as well ?
In fact Jesus said to his disciple Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan", when
Peter entreated him not to go to his death. But this was the will of god
and
anything that would go against that will, would be referred to as "satan".
So in the garden of eden, when Eve ate from the tree that God told them
not to, whatever it was that caused her to do so, could be considered
"satan".
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:43
EID:cd20 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba1a
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> DEFINITIONS FOR JIM:
NS> 1% Karen Davis, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> How would you like it if I formed a group of people and we called
JG> ourselves Davistians. Now we go around and we rape little boys and
JG> kill gays and witches in YOUR name. We tell everyone that YOU told
JG> us to do these things. And thousands of KKK members and white
JG> supremists join our ranks and pedophiles and we all claim to be
JG> following the teachings of Karen Davis as devout Davistians.
NS> Gee, sounds just like Xtians. I think you've insulted Karen. I
NS> know *I* wouldn't want to be likened to a Xtian. BTW, though I'm
NS> sure Karen is divine in her own right, I don't think she's achieved
NS> official god statue in this echo. Several have, perhaps they're on
NS> the lookout for a hard working and up and coming individual such as
NS> yourself that seems highly motivated and has many suggestions.
I think I have made my point. If you choose to ignore it, and make light
of it for whatever reason, so be it.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:44
EID:fbed 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba1b
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> Re: double standard alert:
NS> 1% George Rudzinski, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Isn't that a surprise concidering I refer to myself as a Christian.
JG> According to Karen all Christians seem to be murdering, lieing,
JG> thieves.
NS> Incorrect reference, I'm sure. Show me where she said all Xtians
NS> were these things, or stop acting like a spoiled child.
try going back and reading her messages again. The implication is always
given that she is such a good person and she is not a christian and that
christians are thieves and liars.
And you ? I see you stoop to the debating tactics of calling people names
and making personal attacks. You think that by calling me a "spoiled child"
that it gives more credibility to your own message . I am not really
interested in such responses.
... The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:45
EID:4099 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba1c
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Are you going to blame "god" for the choices that people make ?
JG> WHether it be not watching their children or not teaching them to stay
JG> away from the edge. I am sure that "god" didn't "push" the kid off of
JG> that high place. God didn't even put the kid up on that high place.
JG> Stop blaming god for what people do from things like carelessnes,
JG> greed, anger etc etc etc.
NS> Lemme see here:
NS> Hypothesis one: that a divine being known as god creates
NS> people.
NS> Hypothesis two: said people go all over the place doing a
NS> lot of not so nice things.
NS> Answer: Hell yes, I blame god.
If a man is a murderer or a thief, do you put his mother in jail.
Under your hypothesis and conclusion, it seems that would be the
case.
NS> If my child vandalizes or destroys public property, steals money,
NS> etc. *I* am the one held accountable by law. And, rightly, god is
NS> (or should be) held accountable for the actions of his 'children,'
NS> right? Especially since he _can_ stop their errant behavior (to
NS> buy into your argument here) with nothing more than a thought.
NS> Parents who can't control their kids with thoughts have to pay for
NS> their actions, why not parents who could use their thoughts to stop
NS> them?
And God did exactly that when he came to earth as Jesus Christ and
hung on the cross and "died" for our sins.
But just as a parent is not responsible for his childrens actions when
they reach 18, so too we must pay for our own actions when we are mature
enough to understand them. With the coming of Jesus Christ, we reached that
level. There is now no excuse that we are minors. And do not understand.
Now it is an adult choice we make in choosing evil.
... Go straight to the docs. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:48
EID:ede1 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba1f
JG> WHy try to make things complicated if they don't have to be.
NS> Because he's not being uncomplicated, he's being stupid. He
Are you trying to impress other with how smart you are by calling people
who do not share your opinions "stupid" ? Do you really need these kind
of tactics to support your own ideas. DO they not stand up without such
remarks ?
NS> (ACT 14#:12)..Jupiter..........("Zeus-Pater").
NS> (ACT 14#:12)..Mercurius/Mercury
NS> aspect of Baal).
NS> (NUM 25#:3)...Baal-peor........(Moabite regional variation/aspect
NS> of Baal).
The very first commandment says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
While the bible and God recognizes that man can choose to make anything
his
god, from money to drugs to sex, the sun the moon etc etc etc, who or
whatever this god is, says that to make any of these other gods the one
you serve, is to bring destruction upon your soul.
Let's take drugs as a good example. WHat happens to a person who chooses
to make drugs their god ?
BTW I would appreciate it if you would stop calling people who have a
different perception of life than you do, "stupid". Of course I am not
your god, so you can continue to do so if you wish. Kinda makes you like
god in a way doesnt it?
But then the moderator of this base is even more like god in that he/she
can twit any of us right out of this universe :-)
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Pharaoh Forced to Sin
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:49
EID:73be 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba20
MH> That was after the eighth plague. By that time, God had chosen to
MH> make an example of him -- inspired by his hardening his own heart over
MH> the first five plagues.
MH> All Pharoah had to do was free the Hebrews and repent before their
MH> God OF HIS OWN FREE WILL BEFORE GOD HAD TO RESORT TO REPEATED COERCION
MH> and I've no doubt that God would have forgiven him and blessed his
MH> people.
JG> What are we suppose to feel sorry for the Pharoah and Curse God for
JG> his wretched treatment of the Pharoah ?
JG> DUH ?
I have to apologize for the above comment because it implies "stupid"
which I didn't like your use of. My apologies.
NS> You mean other than that god stopped Pharoah from complying and
NS> therefor caused the deaths of untold innocents that the Pharoah
NS> probably felt bad for, for no other reason than god was having a
NS> shit-fit?
Let's just say God delayed the action in order to accomplish his
purpose, which was to allow the timing of the release and then
subsequent chase by the egyptians to coincide with the earthquake
that allowed the israelis to cross the red sea while drowning the
pursuing egyptian army.
God knew that the Pharoah would not let the Israelites go free. But
in order to save the Israelites from the Egyptians he had to influence
the spirit of the Pharoah to a certain degree for timing purposes.
As I said in my personal perception of god, I see God as a "spirit".
I do not believe that god actually takes physical means himself to
accomplish many of his feats. First he warns people of natural events
about to take place and then uses them in his purposes. Second, he
gives people orders to do things which affect the natural world in a
natural way in accordance with the laws of nature and the universe.
But hey that's just my limited perception of God.
... Documentation - The worst part of programming.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Tennessee Commandment
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:50
EID:5e3d 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba21
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> What's wrong with that ? As long as it isn't a law. What is wrong
JG> with encouraging people to post rules such as
JG> Thou shalt not kill
JG> Thou shalt not steal
NS> In the first place, what you are quoting is not the Decalogue, or
NS> Ten Commandments.
I'm not really interested in technical stuff. The idea and concept is
more important to me.
JG> And then encouraging people to abide by them.
NS> Its one short step from encouraging to mandating.
I don't think that is such a short step myself.
And how far away is it from freedom of speech and expression of ideas.
No body is mandating a person must do so. It is like having a little
thing on your wall that says "God Bless Our Home".
NS> Now you're really being unread. Let me quote for you the Decalogue
NS> (Ten Commandments) of the bible. I'm referring to the Decalogue
NS> from Exodus 34:11-27, later broken and rescribed by Moses (I added
NS> the numbers for edification purposes):
Who cares about the "Decalogue" Jesus said the ten commandments and
"all the laws of moses" would be fulfilled if we followed two simple
Commandmenst.
1) Love God completely.
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.
It is the pharisees and sadducees who liked to play around with the
technical words of the law while ignoring the spiritual intent of them.
NS> The others that we know of as the Ten Commandments (mentioned again
NS> in Deuteronomy) are a later rewrite. The above laws are the only
NS> listing of Yahweh's laws that are referred to as the Ten
NS> Commandments in the Bible. Note that there are no demands to love
NS> parents, none about killing, adultery, stealing, bearing false
NS> witness, or coveting. In fact, the later rewrite might be a lot
NS> easier to live under, if it ever come to that, for read above what
NS> they would do to people who worship other than they would!
NS> Get a clue.
Oh excuse me. I guess then because there are no demands to love parents,
you would take that as an okay to hate your parents ?
And you want me to "get a clue".
Let me leave you with this anaonymous quote.
"Believe what you want, you will anyway !"
... DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename"...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:51
EID:f784 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba22
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> children:
NS> 1% Karen Davis, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> In terms of "illegal" abortions, the woman is not "forced" to die.
NS> They are forced to die because they are forced to have illegal
NS> abortions, which are usually inferior to state-controlled medical
NS> procedures.
I believe that the laws would allow the abortion of a child that threatened
the life of the mother.
They are not "forced" to get an illegal abortion , they "choose" to get
an illegal abortion.
It is like saying the woman who drowned her two children in her car was
forced to drown them because she was not allowed to kill them legally.
Therefore we should make murder legal.
... Taglines are irrelevant. You will be assimilated into the Blue Wave.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:52
EID:99f4 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba23
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> You are a barbaric idiot. I hope you toast.
NS> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you're one sick fuck,
NS> boy.
JG> But you have to take into consideration that we are not talking
JG> about the 1940's or the present American idea of morality and
JG> spirituality.
NS> So that makes it right?
No one said it was right. It may have been concidered "humane" at
the time. Case closed !
NS> But god mandated the above-mentioned behavior. You make him sound
NS> like a victim, when he's still got bloody slobber on his chin.
This was the 1) perception people chose 2) all they could comprehend.
JG> We also have to deal with those who have no intention of listening
JG> to God. Therefore in those times to do any less than they did would
JG> have been to show weakness and not get the respect that winning a war
JG> brings.
NS> So, kill those who don't believe as you do, eh? I have news for
NS> you: war is not about respect. War is about conquest. Those
NS> innocent women and children were killed by armies of god for no
NS> real reason, no matter how much you try to get the clockwork
And you of course are the judge of the reasons for actions of people
10,000 years ago who you have no personal knowledge of and do not have
to face in your own personal life in the future.
JG> That was life in those times and that was what God had to work with.
NS> God mandated it, and god was responsible for it, yet to hear the
NS> Xtians speak, he had no other choice, when in fact he did.
Man mandated it. Man is totally responsible for it because he chooses
to ignore the words of god. Do you advance the cause of the butcherers
that god wanted stopped ? Who was the aggressor ? What would happen
were you to show weakness toward those who desire to kill you. They will
laugh at you and take advantage of that weakness and kill you.
JG> And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for
JG> your new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you
JG> continue the race through the virgins.
NS> What a dickless speciman of manhood.
Another example of your superior intelligence I suppose ?
AS> . . . I'm not blind to the offensiveness of that passage.
JG> But you are thinking in terms of todays standards and your spiritual
JG> enlightenment.
NS> It doesn't matter when it happened, it was still wrong. Period.
I never said it was right . Neither are the people who attacked them.
Two wrongs may not make a right, but it may save your civilization.
Was killing German soldiers or Japanese soldiers "right"?
JG> Now tell me, what do you do about these people who are intent on
JG> destroying you if you are the "bombee" ? What do you think God would
JG> tell you to do ? What do you think the people 5 or 10 THOUSAND years
JG> ago would "think" God was telling them to do. Also what would God have
JG> to tell the people to do in order to get those "bombers" to stop their
JG> aggression ?
NS> I see. The women and children and the virgins all had bombs and
NS> were picking on the superior forces of the armies of god. I had
NS> thought you stupid, but now I can only say that you're a boob, a
NS> drone, a no-necked little geek.
Here you are showing your own inability to comprehend. I will try and
stop short of calling you "stupid". However I will not stop short of
suggesting you are "rude" "obnoxious" and "arrogant" because of your use
of insulting people to try and make yourself look superior to them.
I was making a parralel to the aggressors of today. Back then they may
have "bombed" with spears and arrows only the technology has changed.
JG> I suggest that you also THINK THIS THROUGH !
JG> How do you stop unreasonable aggressive people from slaughtering your
JG> people if all they will respect is an equally agressive reply !
NS> Kill the women and children and rape the virgins . . . yeah,
NS> that'll get you feared but never respected . . . and it'll continue
NS> the cycle of hate and war.
It will certainly curtail the immediate ability of these people to
regroup and renew their aggression towards you in the future.
It's a little difficult to continue the cycle of hate and war, without
armies.
JG> Anything less will just cause them to fight back.
NS> Heavens, we certainly wouldn't want the women and children and
NS> virgins being raped to fight back while we were committing
NS> atrocities on them. You're a pig of the lowest form.
NS> I hope someone saved this for the FAQ. Fucking unbelieveable.
I hope they are saving all your insults and swearing as well so they
can get an idea of the mentality of the person who is doing the
objecting.
I was talking about fighting back as a nationa and not as individuals.
As has already been noted, there is no evidence that these "virgins"
were raped or used as anything more than servants. And from my reading
of the bible many servants were treated quite well. The prodigal son
for example went home thinking "even my fathers servants are better
off than I am".
And these virgins on becoming women may have voluntarily become sexually
active with their captors due to their own sexual needs and urges.
And also the desire to have children.
... Security, confine Ensign Sykes to the brig.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: childish ignorance
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:53
EID:5d15 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba24
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> childish ignorance:
NS> 1% Kenneth Cavness, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
KC> Well, *duh*.
KC> We have Grass on the Earth. That's proof enough for me -- it's right
KC> in front of you. Why can't you see it?
JG> You certainly are free to believe that, pardon me if I don't give it
JG> the same credibility I do to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
NS> So, you don't believe in grass. Why is that?
Somehow I think the thread and context of this message has been lost in
order to make inane comments which have nothing to do with what we were
discussing. A common tactic when a person wants to avoid the point
being made in a message.
... Press now to access the pirate software.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: 1 god plus 1 god plus 1 g
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:55
EID:3c2d 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba26
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
DR> However, no god has ever said or written anything, so the issue
DR> is mote.
> How very true. God is a spirit. But his spirit does speak to the
> spirits of men and then men right down what the spirit of god is
> saying to them.
FR> And if Christianity is any indication, these fictional "spirits" of
FR> yours are saying to rape, torture, and murder. And you think there's
FR> nothing wrong with it. Amazing. No wonder the Christanic death cult
FR> has the history it does.
FR> You're just trying to create deity constructs to explain-away human
FR> inhumanity and tyranny against humanity, Jim.
And many men choose to twist what god is telling us to fit what they want
to do.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Adolph Hitler Was a Chris
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:56
EID:b7fe 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba27
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
DR> Therefore, you're full of shit. Please see the doctor for
DR> an enema.
> And that is where you make your mistake sir. Jesus said "they will
> know you are christians by your love one for another".
FR> While ignoreing the rest of the bloody Christanic mythologies and the
FR> whole of world history. Adolf Hitler was no different than the
FR> thousands of tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him.
FR> The way one 'tells' a Christian is by their professed belief in the
FR> Christanic death cult.
The way one tells a Christian is by his love for his fellow man .
... "Transporter chief Rice, beam the landing party to the bridge"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: cuts
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:57
EID:a4de 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba28
-=> Quoting Michael Hardy to Jim Germiquet <=-
-=> Quoting Jim Germiquet to David Worrell <=-
JG> God is limited
DW> Really? You do realize you are directly contravening 2000 years of
DW> Christian thought here, don't you? What makes your opinion more valid
DW> than that of all those who have gone before you?
JG> Do you always snatch three words out of a three HUNDRED word message
JG> and make them completely meaningless by themselves.
MH> It's called HectorQuote, named for its pioneer, Hector Plasmic.
MH> When you can't dispute what someone says, quote just enough to
MH> distort the meaning into something you *can* dispute.
It is nice to see that someone else here recognizes it. :-)
JG> Let me try that with YOUR message up there
DW> your opinion more valid.
JG> Well thank you very much David !
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited. By allowing us to have free will, God is
JG> saying I cannot stop you from choosing to march into hell. I can
JG> give you advice. I can throw you a rope , I can beg you to
JG> come back. But I can't stop you. YOUR CHOICE,,please make the right
JG> one.
MH> Right. He *could* force us to always do right, but at the expense of
MH> our free moral will -- the very thing that makes us human.
Exactly ! Being human is a growing/learning experience. It is why a person
is
not born from a womans womb 30 yrs old with a college degree, a job
and a three piece suit on. :-)
MH> So instead he goes to great lengths to make salvation possible,
MH> freely available to anyone who wants it.
And what is salvation ? It is avoidance of the pain caused by making
wrong decisions. Much like a person who takes the advice of not
playing with matches avoids the hell of being burned over 90% of their
body, like those who have ignored the warning and have been burned.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Andrew Naim
|Sub: Re: artificial reproducti
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:58
EID:8b55 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba29
-=> Quoting Andrew Naim to Jim Germiquet <=-
AN> Well you have a good Point ! But i still think over population is a
AN> big concern...
AN> Andrew Naim
I guess in a country like Canada with all the unihabitted land we have,
it doesn't seem like the same problem. Overcrowding in populated areas,
now that is a different situation.
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: CHILDREN
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:59
EID:2710 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba2a
-=> Quoting Becke Jones to Jim Germiquet <=-
BJ> On 5 Mar 96 01:58pm, JIM GERMIQUET wrote to BRIAN KOLACY:
JG> He is with you even now as you are reading this message. God is a
JG> "spirit" you cannot see him or touch him physically, but if you want
to
JG> soften your heart, you will feel him. And if you choose to listen, you
JG> will hear him. He IS speaking to you right now. But you don't have to
JG> listen. Your choice.
BJ> In the real world, that's referred to as schizophrenia...
How sad :(
The voice of reason, kindness, love , referred to as schizophrenia.
... The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:10:00
EID:3a27 206c7140
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba2b
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Germiquet <=-
-> On 03-07-96 15:38, Jim Germiquet got back to Don Martin
DM> First things first. Got any non-Biblical evidence that the god
DM> you so limit has any existence outside of human imagination? If so,
DM> please present it: we can get to your character adjustments to the
DM> diety later.
JG> whoops almost forgot to respond to this.
JG> Truth ? What is truth? Seems Jesus was asked this question.
DC> Seems like you forgot to answer the question. It had to do with
DC> a little fact called evidence. Got any for your god, or even
DC> for his godling?
You are asking for "physical" evidence of a "spiritual" being.
The evidence you seek can only be found in the spirits of people
who listen to the word of god. The people who love one another. The
people who love the truth . WHether or not you accept such
evidence is up to you as an individual. Certainly do not just accept
a persons vocal claim to be a christian or that they believe in God.
Watch what they do, listen to what they say. Do they agree ?
... "Don't mince words, Dan ... what do you *REALLY* think?"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Adolph hitler
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:10:01
EID:418b 206c7140
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba2c
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jim Germiquet <=-
KDM> No, you can see the wind. Care to try again?
Can you see the wind, or can you see the effect that the wind has
on physical objects ?
JG>God is a "spirit" . What is a "spirit" ? The "spirit" of Christmas.
KDM> Sorry. This Christmas, my family lost a cat, a dog, and a friend.
KDM> Christmas is damn near dead.
How sad :(
JG>the "spirit" of peace, the "spirit" of friendship. Can you put it
JG>in a test tube or under a microscope ?
KDM> Yeah. I know what friendship feels like. I can define them all.
I
KDM> can show you evidence of all of them. Do the same for God, please.
I suggest you find out what god stands for by reading the teachings of
Jesus Christ. Then tell me if you see evidence of some people trying to
live according to the will of this god. That is the evidence of god.
... He's got Blue Wave fever and it's spreading through the message bases!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:10:02
EID:38b4 206c7140
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba2d
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>Then they have this "life" mystery they can't explain. you have a
JG>bunch of amino acids, and all of a sudden one day they just decide to
JG>get together and become "alive" so they can evolve and go out and
JG>have beer and pizza together. Scientists set up a laboratory to try
JG>and simulate the conditions of primal earth. Excuse me but are they
JG>not themselves proving that an intelligence is needed to arrange
JG>these conditions.
KDM> Nope. All they did was put the amino acids there. Amino acids form
KDM> by themselves; they need no external help. And stop it with the
KDM> quotes, OK?
Should I go back to capitalizing the words I am trying to stress so that
you understand the context of what I am saying.
I am still waiting for someone to show me a handful of life taken out
of a living object so that I can see what life is in and of itself.
JG>And even then they cannot duplicate the process.
KDM> Want to bet? Self-replicating molecules have been made.
GREAT ! Now tell me, did it take an intelligent life form to create
these self-replicating molecules ?
WHo created the intelligent life form that created the self replicating
molecules?
KDM> "Imagine a primitive ocean filled with nucleotides and their
KDM> phosphates and appropriate mineral surfaces serving as catalysts. Even
KDM> in the absence of the appropriate enzyme it seems likely, although
not
KDM> yet proved, that spontaneous assembly of nucleotide phosphates into
KDM> polynucleotides occurred. Once the first such polynucleotide was
KDM> produced, it may have served as a template for its own reproduction,
KDM> still of course in the absence of enzymes. As time went on there were
KDM> bound to be errors in replication. These would be inherited. A self-
KDM> replicating and mutable molecular system of polynucleotides,
KDM> eventually leading to a diverse population of such molecules, may have
KDM> arisen in this way. Alternatively, the primitive hereditary material
KDM> may have involved some other molecule altogether, but no concrete
KDM> suggestion for such a molecule has ever been proposed."
KDM> The Encyclopedia Britanica On-Line. And they are wrong, as self-
KDM> replicating polynuclitides have been observed. I'd get some better
KDM> quotes, but it's Spring Break right now.
Okay the question remains is "how" all these things came about. WHy did
they
happen. They obviously had to happen in accordance with the physical laws
of the universe and life itself. Where did these laws come from ? What is
the motivating force behind the action of these life forms. WHy do they
exist ? And above all where did the energy come from that "evolved" into
these life forms.
You have done nothing but indicate in more detail the method god used to
create us.
JG>They can't even define what "life" is. You can have a live body and a
JG>dead body, side by side. What is the difference? Why is the live one
JG>living? What is this "life force" Where does it come from and where
JG>does it go?
KDM> Huh? "Life force?" What are you talking about?
WHat makes a live body "alive", and the identical chemical composition
of a dead body "dead"? And you wonder why I use quotes?
JG>What IS the "strong nuclear force" ? In other words, what really
JG>holds or attempts to pull everything together ?
KDM> The strong nuclear force is what holds atoms together. It decreases
KDM> as R, so is only applicable in the atomic scale.
KDM> (Continued next message...)
That explains a lot. I knew that. But why does it exist and where did it
come from. Looking forward to the continuance.
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|Sub: Tennessee commandments
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:10:04
EID:b952 206c7140
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba2f
-=> Quoting Kevin D. Mckenzie to Jim Germiquet <=-
KDM> JIM GERMIQUET spoke thusly to RYAN SHAW:
JG>What's wrong with that ? As long as it isn't a law. What is wrong
JG>with encouraging people to post rules such as
JG>
JG>Thou shalt not kill
JG>Thou shalt not steal
JG>etc
JG>
JG>And then encouraging people to abide by them.
KDM> Because they are *Christian* laws, that's why. Especially "Thou shalt
KDM> remember the Sabbath and keep it wholly," and "Thou shalt have no Gods
KDM> before me." They are trying to force their faith on people who don't
KDM> want it.
Nobody is suggesting that "you" have to abide by these suggestions. But
they can be like little plaques that say "think positively". "to thine
own self be true", etc .
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Chad Osten
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:21
EID:2fbf 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bf6
-=> Quoting Chad Osten to Jim Germiquet <=-
CO> ÕÍ From : Jim Germiquet To : Dan Ceppa
CO> ÔÍ About : Adolph Hitler
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan. If you mean a red guy with horns
JG> and a pitchfork, there is no point continuing this discussion. I
JG> havent seen him take thatform. But I am sure many of us have seen him
JG> take the form of people like Charles Manson :-)
CO> I wouldn't see him as a "satan" figure, but somebody who is sick
CO> psychologically (really nothing biblical about it).
What is the bible ? It is a perception written by people of another time
who may have described psycological afflictions, in terms of demonic
possession. I think the key is to translate biblical references into
modern day terminology and perceptions.
The guilt of sin of the bible and the release by sacrifices and forgiveness
reminds me much of the psychological problems of guilt from a person going
against their own set of personal moral values. This causes people to be
neurotic. We know the kind of physical illnesses that also accompany these
mental conditions.
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Chad Osten
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:22
EID:57ac 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bf7
-=> Quoting Chad Osten to Jim Germiquet <=-
CO> ÕÍ From : Jim Germiquet To : George Rudzinski
CO> ÔÍ About : Re: double standard alert
JG> heard from the owner. Isn't that a surprise concidering I refer to
JG> myself as a Christian. According to Karen all Christians seem to be
JG> murdering, lieing, thieves.
CO> they did cause a lot of wars and wipe out a lot of people who were
CO> different and they did pillage ancient civilizations (and in the
CO> process kill off most of the native americans with diseases the
CO> missionaries brought over).
CO> they used to not be this fun party-loving group of individuals but
CO> would go on one hell of a warpath when it suited them (i.e. the
CO> crusades, the inquisition, south america, etc).
CO> I don't think all christians are like that though.
And that is the point I was trying to make. Christ takes a lot of
criticism because of what some people or institutions do using his name.
It is much like the snake oil doctors who must have given real doctors
a bad name when they were in their prime.
Jesus warned us of the "wolves in sheeps clothing" that would beset us.
... "Don't mince words, Chad ... what do you *REALLY* think?"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Chad Osten
|Sub: Re: Evidence
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:23
EID:fa52 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bf8
-=> Quoting Chad Osten to Jim Germiquet <=-
CO> ÕÍ From : Jim Germiquet To : Martin Goldberg
CO> ÔÍ About : Evidence
JG> God doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything. That is what "free
JG> choice" is all about. And in order to be human we NEED that free
JG> choice, or we would be nothing more than robots. Stop blaming god for
JG> what PEOPLE do.
CO> I don't know if it was you or not, but somebody mentioned about how
CO> people need to submit to christ...that isn't exactly free choice..how
CO> would a christian reconcile their need with being a human and being
CO> a christian in this scenario?
Of course it is a free choice, if you submit yourself willingly.
A good example would be that of a wife who trusts her husband enough
to give him the final say in family affairs. She believes that whatever
decision he makes will be in the best interests of all concerned.
Many women no longer feel that way. They feel it is belittling to trust
their husbands enough to willingly submit to his decision.
... Answers: $1, Short: $5, Correct: $25, dumb looks are still free.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:24
EID:96d3 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bf9
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Germiquet <=-
-> On 03-08-96 05:18, Jim Germiquet got back to David Worrell
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited.
DC> He does??? Why not prove the evidence that your god even exists
DC> before you tell us what you claim your god can do?
I have already dealt with the illogic of demanding physical proof
of a spiritual entity.
... Taglines are irrelevant. You will be assimilated into the Blue Wave.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:25
EID:fd06 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bfa
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Germiquet <=-
-> On 03-08-96 05:18, Jim Germiquet got back to Karl Schneider
KS> Ah. If Hitler does it, it's bad, but if God does it, it's OK.
KS> That is some really sick shit.
JG> When did you EVER see god kill anyone ?
DC> I take it you have never read your bible.
OBJECTION YOUR HONOR ...... hearsay evidence !
I will rephrase my question to the witness.
Mr Creppa, Have you "personally" ever seen God kill anyone ?
Answer the question with a yes or no Mr Creppa.
:-)
... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1996
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:26
EID:bf64 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bfb
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
DW> 07 Mar 96 15:38, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>> God does NOT send "anyone" to hell.
DW>> Fine. I refuse to go to Hell. What is God going to do with me?
JG> Are you sure?
DW> What do you mean, am I sure? Is Hell disguised to look like Heaven,
DW> dipshit? You claim that God does not send anyone to Hell. I refuse to
Another person who thinks adding an insult like "dipshit" gives his
argument more credibility. sigh.
You tell me if Hell is disguised as Heaven in terms of crack cocaine.
DW> go to Hell on my own. What is going to happen to me on judgment day?
DW> Since I refuse to go to hell and God sends no one to hell, I must be
DW> going to Heaven, huh?
JG> So to say "I refuse to go to hell" while doing the things that might
JG> be leading you there,
DW> Nothing is leading me to Hell, dipshit, unless it is your God.
Why are you so "defensive" are you going through "denial" here ?
Are you feeling a bit "guilty" ?
JG> is not going to stop you from ending up there.
JG> It is like being on a train to new york screaming I refuse to go
JG> to new york.
DW> No, it is like refusing to get on the train if I don't want to go to
DW> New York. Who is going to put me there?
You were BORN on the train my friend. You have to make a concious effort
to get off of it.
JG> In the meantime what god is doing is sending you messages to get
JG> off the train.
DW> Tell God to try registered mail - his messages are not arriving here.
Oh his message is arriving all right, you just keep throwing them into
the trash can.
JG> But anyone who feels they have to PROVE god to themselves or
JG> anyone
JG> else by drinking poison
DW> This is not a matter of testing God. The bible tells us how to
DW> determine a true follower of God. We are testing *you*, not God.
From my perception it isn't telling people to do that to determine
if they are followers. It is saying, if they inadvertantly drink
poison they will not die. It doesn't mean run out a drink poison to
prove you are a christian.
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:28
EID:6ad7 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bfd
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> So to say "I refuse to go to hell" while doing the things that might
JG> be leading you there, is not going to stop you from ending up there.
RB> Do you believe in the classical 'hell of eternal torment'?
RB> If the answer is yes, how can you worship a god who allows
RB> such a place to exist? ...Let me rephrase that: Of course
RB> you worship him because you don't want your ass to end up
RB> there (hell). But how can you call him 'loving'?
I don't believe in anything "classical" :-)
I don't pretend to know the answer, all I can do is give you my impression
or perception.
All I can do is give you a couple of examples I like to use.
1) If we are eternal beings, if we live our lives and the only way we
get satisfaction or pleasure is through physical things like, food,
sex, drugs, etc. When our physical body is gone , how will we find
satisfaction.
2) Life is a classroom where we can learn about "spiritual" satisfaction.
The fruit of the spirit is things like .patience , love , hope, peace.
If the love of god is taken away from the world at judgement, what kind
of a world will it be when all those who show love and compassion because
it is gods will, are taken out of the world to be with god ?
Those kind of ideas give me my picture of hell to some degree.
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:29
EID:f9c8 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bfe
-=> Quoting Rob Burcham to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> I said that tongue in cheek , but
in
JG> reality too many people apply todays standards to situations of a far
JG> different time , place and people.
RB> Like when they apply common sense and level-headedness to
RB> the religious fanatics of ancient Israel?
You didn't have to live there and worry about the next attack.
... "What?!? This isn't the Files section?!?"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:30
EID:93f2 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6bff
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Jim Germiquet <=-
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Jim Germiquet Your Daily Murder wgah'nagl fhtagn.
RM> No, *humane* would be allowing the women and children to live in
RM> peace, with a promise that the survivors not seek revenge.
JG> Oh really ? And who would the women marry ? In that day and age, any
JG> kind of mercy to a defeated enemy would be looked on as weakness and
JG> invite others to rebel against you or attack you.
PS> Hmmm. Out of curiosity, does this stance apply to unwanted offspring
PS> who are given up for adoption or aborted?
Please remember we are talking about a primitive savage people of 10,000
years ago, not your average american christian.
PS> This is a remarkably stupid and inefficient way to do such things. The
No one said they were as smart 10,000 years ago as we are today.
PS> Think about it. If you awoke one morning to the sound of gunfire and
PS> discovered that your neighbor had invaded his neighbor's house, killed
PS> everyone there except for that family's little girl, and taken her as
PS> a slave, wouldn't *you* feel disposed to do something about it, before
PS> he came after you?
I'd become his friend as soon as possible :-). A STRONG friend as opposed
to a snivelling cowardly friend. He would see the benefit of forming an
alliance with me and be wary of attacking me or betraying me for his
own safety.
RM> Despite what you may think, females *are* capable of surviving
RM> without male "protection"
JG> HAHAHAHA ! Yeah in todays society with all the lobbying of politicians
JG> and the laws and legal institutions. We are not talking about modern
JG> day North America . We are talking of a savage land and a savage
JG> people.
PS> You are living in a dream world, Jim. Though the average male of that
PS> day and age could probably defeat the average female in single combat,
PS> factor in the possibility of that female attempting to defend a child
PS> and the situation gets much, much bloodier.
Oh yes please tell me of the amazon armies of egyptian or roman women
soldiers. Tell me how women of those times were feared by the men.
JG> And of course you wouldn't want to be taking another mans woman for
JG> your new bride. SO take only the virgins. And at the same time, you
JG> continue the race through the virgins.
PS> Rape is distasteful no matter the justification behind it. Even more
PS> distasteful are the scrofulous toads who attempt such justification.
PS> I congratulate you on being one of the very few people that I barely
PS> know and utterly despise.
Just shows how shallow you are, to despise someone you barely know.
JG> Depends on how you view marriage. Perhaps they might consider it to
JG> continue on a spiritual basis after physical death. Also a great way
JG> to be safe from the passing on of STD's :-)
PS> You're talking about killing innocent people, Jim. I hardly think that
PS> it's a subject worth levity.
No I am talking about killing an aggressive nation that is intent on
destroying your own. War is hell, every one from the Indian Massacre's
of the earlie "civilized?" americans .. where do you think you got the
land your sitting on in your easy chair typing away. Had the americans
not slaughtered the indians, maybe you would be half indian sitting in
a teepee. To the slaughter in vietnam by "civilized?" americans and tortured
POW's courtesy of the american viet cong enemies.
JG> It has nothing to do with "condoning" anything. I merely state what
JG> I think may have been the reasons why these things were done in those
JG> ancient times.
PS> And putting it under the banner of "God told us to" somehow makes it
PS> better? If I murdered your children and sodomized your wife while you
PS> were forced to look on and unable to do anything about it, would you
PS> feel better if I told you I was acting on orders from God? The "I was
PS> following orders" excuse didn't work at Nuremburg. Why should it apply
PS> here?
No one is saying the people who lost the war would "feel better", they
would only be sorry that they hadn't been the victors of the slaughter
and would rather have taken the Israelites heads home as trophies.
War is a man made thing, not from god. It is man who has chosen to be
an aggressor and as such those being attacked must defend themselves.
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: A LITTLE HELP FROM SP
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:31
EID:1390 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c00
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
DW> 08 Mar 96 05:18, Jim Germiquet wrote to David Worrell:
JG>> God is limited
DW>> more valid than that of all those who have gone before you?
JG> Do you always snatch three words out of a three HUNDRED word message
DW> When those three words are in direct contravention of what damn near
DW> every other Christian in the world claims, yes.
And thank you for your four words that say of me
"your opinion more valid". You forgot to quote that in your response
so I thought I would reiterate it here.
In fact you go on to say my opinion is more valid than " that of all those
who have gone before you"
You think you can twist my words to make them something you can ridicule
without me returning the favor. Why not first try and understand the context
of the words instead of playing games with them. I'm not impressed with
your debating tactics.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Claims of deity construct
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:33
EID:3da3 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c02
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> And now you tell me where YOUR deity constructs come from. tell me
JG> WHAT went "bang" tell me WHAT made it go "bang".
DW> Quantum fluctuations. You do know how to read, right?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! Like you have any idea of what a "quantum
fluctuation is" How many have you personally encountered ?
Seen any universes created by that method lately ? I thought not.
Fancy words for "non existent magician waved non existent wand and
POOF a universe" And you thing god is a fairy tale?
JG> Oh yeah you will say
JG> it all came out of "nothingness". Then I will say my god came
JG> out of "nothingness".
DW> Occam's Razor removes the need for your God, junior, unless you can
DW> come up with some evidence.
Junior ? You have no idea how old I am ! Do you think I would give
you any credibility in telling me how old the universe is ? You
ASSume you know a lot of things don't you?
... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:35
EID:288a 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c04
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Jim Germiquet <=-
JH>> You got a lot of homersectionals in your religion?
JG> Homersectionals ? Sounds like some kind of modular furniture :-)
DW> Do you have a lot of homosexuals in your religion?
I don't have any way of knowing. The religion I am talking about does
not have a membership list per se. It consist of all those people who
are sincere in their desire to know the truth, and act in accordance
with it, in peace and harmony with nature and their fellow man.
It certainly includes all true followers and believers of Jesus Christ,
considering that is what is expressed in his teachings to be "the way".
I am not a judge of who is a member of this religion, that is up to
God to decide.
Suffice it to say, I would say the possibility exists that there are
homosexuals in my religion, all they have to do is follow the same
two commandments of.
1) Love God
2) Love their neighbor.
Whether or not they do that is between them and god.
... Press now to access the pirate software.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:36
EID:813d 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c05
JG> Nope I don't like that idea, and I don't like the idea of them doing
JG> it back then. I said that tongue in cheek mouth :-)>, but in reality too many people apply todays standards to
JG> situations of a far different time , place and people.
DW> Does morality change, Jim? I trust you would say that it is not a good
DW> thing to slaughter women and children out of hand today. Was it a good
DW> thing in the time of the verse quoted above? Your God did order it to
DW> be done, after all, didn't he? Is God capable of an act that is not
DW> good?
It definately is not a good thing to slaughter anyone in my opinion.
It was not a good thing back then either in my opinion.
However having said that, it is a known fact that we often are in
situations when we have to do things that are not good.
An example is the war to stop the Hitler Horrors. Is it good to stand
by and watch a people be thrown alive into furnaces?
I am sure it sickened God to see his children behave that way on both sides.
But I am just as sure that when you have a child and he is being beaten
up
by the school bully, that you would want him to be able to stand up and
defend himself against such an aggressor.
Hitting the aggressor in itself is not a good thing. But standing up for
yourself and all the other people being bullied I think is a good thing.
To be sure, it would be best if we lived in a perfect world. Some men
choose for it not to be so.
... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Death Cult
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:37
EID:95a6 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c06
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
FR> "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and
FR> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
FR> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
JG> Why do I get the feeling that this verse has been misinterpreted ?
RJ> Because you don't _want_ to believe your cultfounder said
RJ> that.
JG> I KNOW he didn't say that.
NS> Correction: you believe he didn't say that. There is a difference.
JG> And you will see in a response that I
JG> indicated the problem lies in the definition of the word "hate" that
we
JG> now use. The definition I would use for hate in this instance would
be
JG> more in the line of this one in my dictionary ... "..2. to be
JG> unwilling..". SO in this instance it would be "to be unwilling" do what
JG> your father and mother , wife and children, brothers and sister, yes,
JG> and even life itself tells you, and instead do what god is telling you
JG> instead. THEN you can be His disciple.
NS> Let's test this hypothesis:
NS> "Whoever comes to me and does not unwilling father and
NS> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
NS> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
NS> Nope, makes even less sense than before.
You see what I mean. You do not have any desire to understand what was being
said. Your only desire is to present it in a twisted confused way so
that you can ridicule it. I have shown how it would be expressed to make
sense.
Just as when you translate something form french to english, you often
have to change the order of the words to have the correct context, I have
shown how it would make sense in the bible quotation. You have chosen to
completely ignore what I have said to play your little word game of "it
doesn't make sense".
Again I am not impressed by your debating tactics where you pretend to
be too dense to understand how to fit the meaning into the passage.
NS> No, according to Strong's the word for hate being used here is
NS> miseo {mis-eh'-o}, meaning hate, to pursue with hatred, to detest.
NS> Let's check that out:
NS> "Whoever comes to me and does not detest father and
NS> mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
NS> and even life itself, cannot be my disciple."
NS> Seems to make perfect sense this way . . .
Well two out of three times up there you used the word hate to define
the word hate. The third word you use is detest, means to dislike intensely.
The bottom line, is that you have to have an intense desire to do what is
right and an intense dislike of doing what is wrong, even if it is your
mother or brother or your own desires that are telling you to do wrong.
In other words if you want to rape a little baby, you should must hate that
desire in yourself to follow god. If your mother tells you to rape a little
baby, you must hate what your mother has said, and follow God instead.
But why explain this to someone who really isn't interested in the "truth"
but just wants to ridicule another persons idea so he can be "right" no
matter what the "truth" is.
You see how easy it is to not want to know the truth, and the reason behind
the denial of the truth. PRIDE. You have to be right so damn the truth and
full speed ahead.
... Mary had a little RAM -- only about a MEG or so.
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:38
EID:99f4 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c07
JG> It was said "tongue in cheek"... but we are talking about a primitive
JG> and savage time and people. Maybe it is the only way they could
JG> understand they had to stop their savagery.
NS> This is ten pounds of shit in a five pound sack. Your god told
I have already explained this to the people who matter. I don't have
timne to waste trying to explain it to you.
Kind of reminds me of the verse.
"Don't throw your pearls before swine for they will just trample them
into the dirt."
... The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: cult evaluation form
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:40
EID:1650 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c09
JG> It's a saying of Jesus. But who knows ? Could mars be a spiritual
JG> planet ? Some say Jupiter is.
NS> I suppose that if you were falling towards Jupiter, you could get
NS> spiritual. You'd also have a soiled space suit. BTW, there is no
NS> surface to Jupiter that I know of . . . it's a gas giant.
WHo says spirits need a surface? Do you see that up there anywhere. You
know you are just plain annoying and iritating and I doubt that I will
bother responding to your meaningless replies anymore.
... Not tonight, dear. I have a modem.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Re: children
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:41
EID:12a5 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c0a
JG> BK> LOL! Ok, send the old boy over for tea sometime:)
JG>He is with you even now as you are reading this message. God is a
JG>"spirit" you cannot see him or touch him physically,
BK> Can your god exist physically exist?
In the form of Jesus Christ. But what is physical existence, except
a limited perception of life ?
JG> but if you want
JG>to soften your heart, you will feel him.
BK> Sounds kind of dangerous. How exactly do you soften your heart,
BK> anyway? Hydrochloic acid?
If you choose to feign ignorance of what I am saying, there is
no point in replying. I don't know why you even bothered to reply
to my message with this kind of attitude.
JG>And if you choose to listen,
JG>you will hear him. He IS speaking to you right now. But you don't
JG>have to listen. Your choice.
BK> So your god is totally imaginary...
Not to me.
... Pardon me, but would you have any Blue Poupon?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:42
EID:fc91 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c0b
-=> Quoting Brian Kolacy to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG>That is why I do not trot out reams of "references" and bible
JG>commentaries. God is personal to me. I know more have to prove He is
JG>alive than that I am alive. I believe I am therefore I am. I believe
JG>God exists therefore He exists. Period. I just don't pretend that my
JG>mortal being can comprehend in entirety an immortal spirit.
BK> So, do you have any evidence that your god exists outside imagination?
No more than I have evidence that you exist outside imagination.
... This tagline is made just for Brian Kolacy
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:43
EID:65f6 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c0c
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> It's a saying of Jesus. But who knows ? Could mars be a spiritual
JG> planet ? Some say Jupiter is.
AS> Oh.
AS> Uh, Jim. You are perhaps aware that a probe plunged into Jupiter's
AS> atmosphere earlier this year...?
AS> Were you by any chance big into "New Age" religions before you
AS> turned to Christianity? The Shirley MacLaine type of stuff?
I have heard about it, that is what the reference is to. But once more,
the point is, that who really knows where a spirit might go upon leaving
the body? WHo knows where heaven might be ?
... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at Al" ... Zzzzzap!
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: [1/2] Re: lack of any Evi
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:44
EID:19ac 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c0d
>>> Part 1 of 2...
AS> Let me try this again.
AS> For thousands of years people routinely believed in prophecy, the
AS> Oracle at Delphi, the Prophets of the OT, etc. The hit-and-miss ratio
AS> was never great, although I personally think some of the prophets were
AS> correct, but they couched it in obscure enough language that I cannot
AS> prove it to an outside party...sort of like reading the prophecies of
AS> Nostradamus. Some people see startling hits, but that's by sayng "the
AS> river Hister" is the same as "the tyrant Hitler" which strikes me as,
AS> to say, the least, a bizarre stretching of the original message out
of
AS> shape. Others see nothing but useless rhymes.
AS> If prophecy was a HUMAN facility, and not say granted by an outside
AS> source at its convenience not ours (the God theory) or nonexistent,
AS> than why did not the ancients' make it more dependable, breed people
AS> for prophecy (as they bred people for leadership (kings), servility
AS> (peasants), etc?
Perhaps some people because of genetic differences, or just attitude or
faith, are more likely to be able to have this ability, the same as is
possible with the alledged psychic of today.
AS> any scientific progress. Every new idea starts with a lone idea. If
JG> I don't agree. Our brains associate "everything" when we get ideas,
JG> they are usually based on other ideas. In fact I bet every idea is
JG> based on the first idea that the first man who was capable of having
an
JG> idea , had. :-)
AS> Yes. But OTOH, SOME ideas are startling departures from previous
AS> ideas. Einstein's theory made perfect mathematical sense, but it
AS> SEEMED to violate the common sense of the day. The Michaelson-Morley
AS> experiment ran contrary to ALL expectation, and they had to scramble
AS> like mad to figure a way to reconcile it. Ditto quantum mechanics.
AS> Currently we have dark matter, again TOTALLY unexpected, but crying
AS> for an explanation. If our brains determine reality, there would be
no
AS> new unexpected discoveries. (And of course, how were our brains
This particular phenomena is being dealt with in terms of paradigms.
Paradigms are thought patterns. For example if you have been trained
to think in terms of triangles, you may not recognize the importance
or relevance of circles when they pass through your thinking. You will
just ignore them, let them slip through, unawares. As you say, one day
someone stops for a second and says "Hey whats this round thing good for".
TADA ! New idea. So today we realize that to come up with some new ideas,
we have to be willing to depart from some of the normal ideas and look into
some of what may have been considered crazy ideas a bit more closely.
JG> Are you really sure it wasn't ? The idea is that even as we change our
JG> idea of things, we recreate the past and believe it has always been
JG> that way :-) Sounds like a twilight zone plot.
AS> I HOPE you're joking. Think it through. If minds determine reality,
AS> than a majority of minds would make that reality more, uhhh, "firm".
AS> So a lone dissenter like Copernicus would never be able to produce the
AS> evidence needed, for HIS one mind's "pull" on reality would not match
AS> several million mind's "pull" on reality. And without evidence, you
AS> can't convince the rest of the minds, so new theories would never be
AS> accepted...
Again it was just an idea to play with that might have some measure of
truth to it. A new way to look at something that might help us stumble
across a new great idea. It is that paradigm thing. The old brain storming
idea of throwing out a bunch of ideas no matter how crazy they may seem,
in
the hopes of coming up with a new viable idea out of it all that may not
have been considered before.
JG> Good question. I ask that often. Especially when I think I've lost
JG> mine :-) But seriously, it is a very difficult thing to understand what
JG> reality really is when you are limited by the fact that as a human you
JG> are unable to comprehend anything that you cannot translate into a form
JG> that your five senses can interpret. Before we saw pluto, we didn't
JG> know it existed. Before we developed things like microscopes, we didn't
JG> know of all those tiny things that existed. They were there all the
JG> time but not for those who didn't know.
AS> True, but I can say that reality is not dependent on a PLURALITY of
AS> minds, see above. There is really no reason why it cannot depend on
AS> ONE mind, though...I cannot objectively prove anyone else exists
AS> (solipism). But then, if only one mind determines reality, why would
AS> viewpoints change? Why would there be suprises? So, I interpret the
AS> consistent impressions I get to reflect a true reality, not dependent
AS> on even my mind, in a Descartian sense. Thus I refute Descartes, there
AS> must not only be"I think, therefore I am" but an external reality to
AS> sometimes change one's thinking patterns.
You ask "why would viewpoints change?" , Have you ever had an argument
with yourself , something like this. I think I will go to the store on
the way home and pick up something. Then hmmm no maybe I will go home
first and get changed and then go to the store on my way to... no I
think I will go to the store on my way home so I can pick up some milk
as well. Or how many times have we weighed various viewpoints to decide
which is the best. SO what is to stop us if we were all that existed, from
imagining other people with opposing viewpoints that we can bounce our own
ideas off of.
JG> The periodic table is a case in point. Blanks were left for elements
JG> that had not yet been discovered. Now the question is, did those
JG> elements exist previously or did they come into existence because we
JG> believed they would?
AS> (Picking jaw off the floor) Read the history of the discovery of
AS> those elements, Jim. You will find that it was usually a matter of not
AS> being able to measure their atomic weight correctly at the time.
AS> You saw statues or paintings of them. You didn't see UNICORNS in the
AS> gift shop...did you?
Aww look at all my pretty bubbles. Just soap rings on the floor now.
You're mean :-)
JG> Cool...now tell me... what or who is god?
AS> The first cause, transcendent to our reality, who chose the boundary
AS> conditions and limits of the physical constants in our reality.
JG> what has to believe for it to become reality. Could it be swayed by
JG> 1) the number of conciousness' that believe 2) The strength of the
JG> belief of one or more consciousness' in the collective ? Or a
JG> factoring of the two or any other criteria IF it even exists?
AS> *Sigh* Jung has a lot to answer for...
AS> See above. IF the 'collective consciousness' determines reality, no
AS> single mind, not even Einstein's or Copernicus', could deflect the
AS> mindset of millions of minds. And the heliocentric theory and
But perhaps Einstein DID sway millions of people, thereby swaying the
collective consciousness :-)
AS> realitivity would NEVER be proved, because the "collective
AS> consciousness" would never allow reality to be changed enough to make
AS> it so.
seems to make sense.
AS> James said it best when he said, "Faith without works is dead." Not
AS> that salvation is a matter of works, but that faith prompts action,
AS> just as love prompts action. If you say you love your wife, but never
AS> kiss her, hold her, do anything for her, despite all your
AS> protestations of how much you love her, your words ring hollow.
AS> Similarly with faith.
JG> There is so much of this type of wisdom in the bible that some people
JG> in this echo would have us throw in a shredder.
AS> True.
JG> And what you do gives reality to what you believe.
>>> Continued to next message...
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: [2/2] Re: lack of any Evi
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:20:45
EID:e648 206d5280
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 250a6c0e
>>> Part 2 of 2...
AS> No; if I have an unrequited love for a woman, unless she is really
AS> there, all my longing and actions will not materialize her.
JG> But obviously if you love her, she exists for you. Again maybe not
JG> physically "yet", but who knows if you continue longing for a long
JG> enough time she may yet "materialize" and you may meet her. Maybe she
JG> HAS already "materialized" and it is just a question of meeting her.
AS> But many search for such a mate all their lives and never find them.
AS> Similarly, some people seek God...or the Northwest passage...or
AS> evidence of ether (in the cosmological sense)...all their lives, and
AS> never find it. Einstein died without finding a unified theory, which
AS> he had been searching for, for thirty years. Wishful thinking does not
AS> budge reality.
Maybe it does , but we are not always still around to see it or reap its
benefits.
I like to think of my own current relationship in the way you state above.
That god knew what I would need many years ago and had prepared my fiance
at the time of her birth to grow up in such a way as to meet my need the
day I met her.
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:34:26
EID:7fcd 206d4c40
MSGID: 1:207/212 7ca52638
REPLY: 1:271/460 3145b450
On (12 Mar 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> (What's AFAIK?)
As far as I know
KD> Then how am I supposed to know a Christian except by what they say they
KD> are?
KM> By what they do, they will show signs, yes, but not when it's demanded
KM> of them. When one walks up to you and askes you if your 100% sure that
KM> if you died tonight that you would go to heaven, that's a real good
KM> indication. But even that can be faked. It's easy to fake being a
KM> Christian, that's part of the problem, there's a lot of fake
KM> Christians giving Christianity a bad name. There's also a lot of saved
KM> people that think that being saved or born again makes them a
KM> Christian. You stay around the church long enough and you will see who
KM> is and is not a Christian, a few years down the road the fake ones
KM> normally leave or stop coming.
Then what's the value of Christianity per se?
KM> I don't see it as a jail, and those of us that are born again
KM> Christian should consider it a jail more, the Bible tells us that this
KM> is not our home.
But it IS a jail, it was where "we" were sent because God couldn't trust
us in the garden of eden any more. According to your legends, at least.
KM> Your absolutly correct, I can't let my 13 year old daughter out of the
KM> house without fearing the same thing. The Bible says that they world
KM> is going to get worse, that it will get like it was in the days of
KM> Noah before the flood, and as int he days of Lot before Sodom and
KM> Gomora were destroyed. Stick around, it's going to get worse and
KM> worse, and when you think it has ended, it hasn't.
It's Christians that rape and cause rape, Kenneth. By telling people
that women don't belong thus and so.
... I bought a cured ham. Wonder what it had.
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello! [1]
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:36:50
EID:3ee2 206d4c80
MSGID: 1:207/212 86b017ba
REPLY: 1:271/460 3145bbaa
On (12 Mar 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> I see you point, I just don't have to agree with it.
You don't have to agree that those possibilities are true, of course.
KD> No, simply agreeing that if there is no god or afterlife of any kind,
we
KD> are not likely to have any awareness after death.
KM> Isn't that what Pascal's Wager says? That is what I was told after I
KM> said that if God did not exist that I would not know it.
Pascal's Wager is that since there are only 2 choices, God [i.e. the God
of the Bible] and no god, you might as well believe in God so you get
any advantages of that. Since there are any number of OTHER
possibilities, that is a false dichotomy.
KD> HOWEVER, there are many proposed supreme beings and afterlives. So many
KD> that yours is not the statistical best bet.
KM> Your right, there are many many false religions in the world, excuse
KM> me if I have to think that mine is not.
And I can't see any difference between yours and the others. Not in what
they teach in general, not in the influence on the people, etc.
KM> What do you expect? I don't believe that any other religion is
KM> correct.
That's fine, but believe it for the right reasons, not because there are
no other options.
KM> Not just based on what my "faith" teaches, most of my learning from
KM> the Bible did not come from my "faith", but from self study.
Yet consider what a Muslim would learn about you from HIS holy book.
KD> Take one step back from the Bible and open your mind. Your Bible might
KD> only leave 2 options - false/true God/no God, but TRUE logic indicates
KD> that there are many more.
KM> Sorry Karen, I will not step back from the Bible. I already have an
KM> open mind, and do not see any other options either it's the God of the
KM> Bible or no God at all. You look for logic that indicates something
KM> else, I'll stick with the truth of the Bible.
FAQ TIME!
Again, you're relying on a false dichotomy.
KM> Not can't, won't. Why? Don't see the need? Why bother considering
KM> something that I do not believe in? I could spend the time considering
KM> something that I do believe in.
Considering things you don't believe is mind sharpening. One of the
reasons I love reading and writing Science Fiction so much. Science
fiction writers don't write what they think will happen, they take WHAT
IF's.
KM> NO matter what the reason, it would still not be the truth would it?
KM> Whether you purposely lied or not, it's still not the truth, therefore
KM> it would be lie.
There are types of mistaken information that are not lies.
KM> Like I said, if the statement is untrue then it is a lie.
Again, a false dichotomy. To be a lie it must generally be an
intentional deception.
KD> OK... let's take this away from the possibliity of LYING. Let's say
that
KD> at 8:30 in the morning, my husband wakes up to find me already gone.
He
KD> gets a call that he needs to find me. On the computer desk is a paper
KD> saying "Grand Terrace, 3rd grade." HE NEEDS TO FIND ME.
KD> He goes to the office and finds out that the third grade teacher I had
KD> been sent there for came in anyway, but they needed me in another grade.
KD> OR
KD> A call to the sub desk finds that Grand Terrace was my assignment for
KD> TOMORROW and that I'm at ______ school that day [any grade]
KD> OR that I didn't have an assignment that day, Gary goes home and finds
KD> me home eating the doughnuts I had gone out to buy.
KM> What's your point?
How many alternatives were there to my being at that school?
KM> Go ahead, consider them all you want. I won't, I don't see the logic
KM> of considering something I do not believe in.
That's your problem. Thought experiments are CRUCIAL to developing
thinking skills. Included in thought experiments is accepting the
possibility of something you vehemently disagree with.
I don't see the logic of considering the effects of the conservinazi
agenda on this country, since I don't believe in it.
KM> You want to have verification that God exist? But you refuse to
KM> believe by faith. Without faith you cannot verify that he exist. It
KM> takes faith, not physical evidence to believe in God.
Faith is belief WITHOUT verification.
... ù ù - - - ù - - ù ù ù (Tagline in Morse Code.)
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Hello! [2]
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:49:09
EID:3ee2 206d4e20
MSGID: 1:207/212 f73a426c
REPLY: 1:271/460 3145bbaa
On (12 Mar 96) Kenneth Mcabee wrote to Karen Davis...
KM> "intentionally lying" That's the key.
Will you admit that those involved with your so called Messiah could
have been intentionally lying?
KD> You really think God would want you to think that way?
KM> How does it go? Thou shalt have no other gods before me? Yes, I do
KM> think that he would want it that way.
Why bother making something a sin if there aren't any?
KD> He wouldn't want
KD> you to entertain the possibility that there was some miscommunication
KD> and that fallible men wrote things wrong?
KM> There's also a verse in the Bible that says that forever his word is
KM> settled in heaven. I believe we have the word of God. And I do not
KM> think that it is fallible at all.
Yet MEN have joined in committee, in MODERN HISTORY, and made decisions
about what to include in the Bible and what not to include. You willing
to vouch for the divine inspiration of every man involved in all of
these decisions, as well as all the translators, etc.?
KD> Why then did he have to send
KD> someone else to repeat his message?
KM> Repeat his message? Who did that?
Jesus. Supposedly.
KM> But you have no faith, you will not believe the scriptures, therefore
KM> you will not believe.
Circular. I only believe things that evidence has led me to believe
could be true.
KM> Oh, I understand you, more than you realize. I just won't think like
KM> you, and you consider that wrong. Could you step on my side of the
KM> tracks and honesty consider God from the stand point of one that has
KM> faith? If you think you can, tell me how can you without that faith?
KM> How could I consider a thought
KM> experiment that requires me to set my faith aside? My faith exist, and
KM> it is not something that can just be set aside.
It doesn't take setting your faith aside to realize that Pascal's Wager
is a false dichotomy IN LOGIC. You're willing to consider the
possibility of NO god, why not all the other possibilities?
... (add to postlink.cfg) IGNORE-ALL-PROGRAMING-ERRORS=YES
--- PPoint 1.98
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|From: Lon S. Mabon
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Who's who...
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:51:00
EID:644e 206d5660
PID: RA 2.5.g1 22008
MSGID: 1:228/87 56e54648
REPLY: 1:116/19 0512AF2A
TID: GE/32 1.2
> LSM> Interesting origin lines here, folks. Keep tabs on those posting
> LSM> times, Fredric...this just might be a new 'staal' alias:
> Jim. Enough games.
C,mon, Al. Let's lighten up a bit, eh Al? Just a little joke....
Goodbye!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: THE COMMANDERS DYING
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:12:00
EID:bf6d 206c8980
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d453
A lone voice in the wilderness, J.J. mournfully howled out "THE COMMANDERS
DYING"
SA> Do they charge for these kits? Somehow, making a living
SA> from making up fantasy stories seems rather appealing.
JH> Some may. It's been a couple of years since I sat down and
JH> enjoyed an issue of the Weekly World News. Usually the information
JH> on getting one is inside the masthead box which is normally on page
JH> 2 or 3. It'll be in very tiny print and burried along with lots of
JH> other uninteresting pieces of information like their office hours
JH> and the names of their lawyer's cats.
Hmm. Maybe I can scan it real quick at the A&P so I don't have to
waste any money on actually buying that rag ..
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Man, I'm so stressed, I've got the urge to...to...deliver letters!
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Electoral College
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:13:01
EID:4c82 206c89a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d454
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "Electoral College"
SA> Hmmm. It had crossed my mind that the Electoral College might be
SA> a weak point in which a roundabout coup could conceivably take
DC> Possible, but not overly likely, as most states require that their
DC> delegates vote along the lines of the election results. However,
DC> the scenario in the book I mentioned is possible, though not all
DC> that probable. Yet, if something like that does come to pass,
DC> it would end up in a rather interesting shakeup of the Electoral
DC> College system, I'm sure.
Heh. Though by the time the shakeup came, it might be just a tad
too late. :)
DC> Everyone was watching the outcome of that one...
SA> that which simply said: "Congratulations! You still have a
SA> country!" from Australia. I hadn't realised the news was being
DC> Nice thing about it is that with technology there are very
DC> few isolated backwaters anymore. It can be intrusive at times,
DC> but it goes a long way to promoting global understanding.
Mm. A couple of years ago, I was having a great convo with a Pole
on one of the Globenet echoes; unfortunately, that net doesn't
exist here any more, because the local co-ordinator got himself
into a pissy mood and picked a fight with the Australian CC and
... and the whole thing was started because of some idiots around
here who were dumping inane one-liners all over the world to each
other. I still (technically) have my node, though, and I'm
tempted to see if Joe's Code in Detroit is still carrying the net
.. it was damn interesting. Unlike Fido, you regularly saw folks
from all over; Poland, Sweden, Switzerland, England, Scotland,
Germany, Australia, etc, and for once, the North Americans were
almost a minority. After all, that's what I got a modem for in
the first place - to talk to people outside of the US and Canada
(and I found out very quickly I couldn't afford internet access,
though in this area it's slowly getting cheaper.)
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "You can do anything with bayonets except sit on them." - Napoleon
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: perservere [1/2] [1/2]
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:20:02
EID:1609 206c8a80
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d455
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out
"perservere"
SA> years into its mandate. IMO, the wrong government is calling an
SA> election. I wish the provincial gov't would do that, instead.
DC> Sounds like you aren't too happy with your "state" gvt!
Gee, how can you tell? :) The Progressive Conservatives
(Brian Baloney's party) are running the place like little tinpot
dictators, and "Americanising" everything so they can afford to
give a huge, fat tax cut to the very rich. They even want to sell
off Ontario Hydro, fer cryin' out loud. The LAST thing we need is
a privately run electric company, which would raise hydro costs AT
LEAST 33% (and thus would likely immediately raise rents with
hydro included up beyond the reach of people like myself, as
well. I can't afford to pay any more than I'm paying, and no
place in the world for rent is smaller and cheaper than a rooming
house. Well, I _can_ go up to $325 without being hurt for grocery
money, but ...) If that fucker goes ahead and does this, over the
objections of the people, Ontario Hydro, and its workers before
someone decides to let me work for them, I'm out on my ass, more
likely than not. All so Harris' rich bastard friends can afford
an extra round at the country club.
(Yes, I'm extremely angry right now. I just got screwed out of a
paying project yesterday that I was counting on to help me get
through the month and give me enough extra to replace my
badly-scratched glasses. This is about the nth time I've been
royally screwed by businessmen, and I'm getting quite sick of it,
and fed up with things in general.)
SA> Mm. I just noticed the Detroit stations have started airing "Yes
SA> on 1 and No on 2" ads yet again. Gee, it hasn't seemed like four
SA> years have gone by already ..
DC> Elections are at least every 2 years. It's the presidential
DC> election that's every 4 yrs. In some places, there are varous
DC> elections held every year.
Ahhhh; I thought I remembered seeing those things at "odd" times
.. but they do seem to increase mightily during presidential
election years. And I have noticed they come around a bit during
election years for judges as well (electing judges is yet another
"foreign" concept to me) :)
SA> elects its leaders with less than a 50% turnout.
DC> Worse is the fact that this country prides itself on setting the
DC> standard for the democratic countries.
SA> Mm. I have a few sarcastic comments, but I believe I'll be nice
SA> for the moment and hold my tongue, lest I yet again attract the
SA> Wrath of Jones (and perhaps McCullough as well.) :P
DC> Well, don't bite it off! Better to get Jones in on this. After
DC> all, it's a global world these days, whether they believe it
DC> or not.
He'd ignore it anyway - I read ahead in my packet and found that
he replied to my two or three message critique of US foreign
policies with an objection to being called a "fundy".
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Now I see what I must see, the poor do time, the rich go free ..
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: perservere [2/2]
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:37:03
EID:4267 206c8ca0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d456
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "perservere [2/2]"
SA> still sounds quite nice, too. (In case anyone's wondering why I
SA> keep referring to hanging specifically, it's because it was (and
SA> would be if returned) the standard and traditional form of
DC> Your gonna like(?) this: There's a similar murderer in this
DC> state that has chosen hanging as his punishment. However, the
DC> SOB claims the punishment can't be used, as he's too heavy and
DC> the hanging would rip his head off. Yep, they still serve the
DC> fat bastard all the food that the fucker can eat, maintaining
DC> his obese status.
DC> In his case, he deserves to be starved to death...
Yeeesh. They should hang him anyway - let his head get ripped
off. Sure, it'd be messy for the poor sods who had to clean it up
afterwards, but a good, powerful firehose might take care of that
with minimal gore and upset of the tummy.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... "Thence we came forth to see the stars again." -- Dante
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: perservere [2/2]
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:39:04
EID:4267 206c8ce0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d457
A lone voice in the wilderness, Dan mournfully howled out "perservere [2/2]"
-> On 03-07-96 14:39, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SA> ... "Mein Fuehrer! I can WALK!" - Dr. Strangelove
DC> Got any more of them stashed away?
SA> Unfortunately, no; I would like to get the movie and glean through
SA> it for more, though. It should be on TVOntario sometime in the
DC> I'll try and see if it's in th local video store. I'm sure,
DC> knowing Peter Sellers, there has to be dozens of them. One
DC> of the guys I work with may be of help, as I think he has
DC> memorized the script!
Hee. :) If he can come up with a tagline-suitable version of that
"precious bodily fluids" bit, I'd love to have it. :)
SA> summer .. the host of the Saturday night movie fest ALWAYS runs Dr
SA> Strangelove in front of "Failsafe", making for a great evening of
DC> I liked Failsafe, but Dr Strangelove is still the better of the two.
Sure - because it's funnier. :) Elwy Yost always runs the good Dr
first, though.
DC> And, as to strange pair-ups: M*A*S*H and Patton always seem to have
DC> been run together at the drive-ins...
ROFL! I didn't really like the movie M*A*S*H*, but just thinking
of the series makes me laugh - I still love it, no matter how many
times I've seen each episode (and there's usually a two or three
year break between when the local station runs it; right now it's
on a Home Improvement kick, but they should be bringing back
M*A*S*H* pretty soon.) I bet I know why they ran those two movies
together, though - M*A*S*H* was a statement on how crazily wars
can be run, and Patton seemed to be crazy himself. (I don't know
ANY officer of my former acquaintance who'd risk hitting a soldier
- that would be an incredibly stupid move - and I also think that
trying to shoot down a Messerschmidt (or whatever it was) with a
pistol is a solid sign of mental incompetence as well.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... History is the refutation of the "moral world order." - Nietzsche
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Jesse Jones
|Sub: Constitution of FSU
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:46:05
EID:ad56 206c8dc0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d458
A lone voice in the wilderness, Jesse mournfully howled out "Constitution
of FSU"
SA>Something you fundies never
SA>seem to do.
JJ> What is a "fundie?"
Look in the mirror.
JJ> And why do you call me one?
Because I believe in calling a spade a spade.
What's the matter, Jesse? Couldn't refute the rest of the post,
so you decided to just whine about a little name that you've been
called a million times before? If one man calls you an ass, it's
but a trifle. If two call you an ass, it's an insult. But if
three call you an ass, check your backside for a tail.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Shaka, when the sewers backed up.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] WHAT?? [1/2]
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:49:06
EID:75c8 206c8e20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d459
>>> Part 1 of 2...
A lone voice in the wilderness, Lynda mournfully howled out "[1/2] WHAT??"
>>> Part 1 of 2...
LB> Steve and Sue were killing time yakking about WHAT??:
SA> Hehehe. Say, it -has- been 10 years already, hasn't it? I'm
SA> surprised I haven't noticed any organised whinging about how
SA> dangerous space travel is, how NASA should be done away with, how
SA> we shouldn't waste money and possibly lives on trying to reach for
SA> the stars. Not that it matters much, anwyay - seems like all the
LB> Oh, it's there, alright. NASA has been very hard hit by the
LB> government cut backs. It slows things down, but it is also forcing
LB> them to run things more like a business -- and to turn over financial
LB> responsibility for many of their projects to those who will ultimately
LB> benefit by them -- private industry.
I think the reason for the cutbacks was mainly "Oh, look - NASA
hasn't done anything interesting for a while; they don't need the
money."
As for private industry getting their fat fingers onto control of
space travel - groan. So much for public colonisation of
outposts. You won't be able to move there if you want to - you'll
likely have to be hired by them specifically, and already have a
million degrees in order to do so - and the only way you'll get to
see any of it (if the public's allowed to, that is) is to pay
through the nose for luxury tours. It certainly wouldn't be what
I would hope space colonisation would be - a chance for those of
us who have no hope left here of getting in on the ground floor of
a new world (much like the way North America was colonised - it
was the poor who went (or were sent), rather than the
highly-trained and already rich who had plenty of opportunities
back in Europe.) It might be the dream of the right to get the
poor off the planet, but in that case, I wouldn't mind going at
all.
SA> guts have been taken out of NASA since that one stupid little
SA> explosion. All they seem to do anymore is dippy-do "experiments"
SA> that don't seem to reveal much of anything at all .. hacking up
LB> They aren't as exciting as the old days of breathlessly watching the
LB> Apollo missions, but those dippy-do experiments are making improvements
LB> in our daily life most of us will never know about -- and in far more
LB> practical ways then just getting a thrill at rooting for "our" side
in
LB> the Space Race. I have a file around here somewhere of the benefits
LB> NASA has helped bring about in the last couple of years. It's pretty
LB> long, and encompasses everything from telecommunications, to medicine,
LB> to business efficiency. The heart hasn't been taken out of NASA --
it
LB> has simply matured past its adolescence.
I was mainly referring to repetitive and useless experiments with
bugs and mice - the ONLY way to find out how long-term effects
will affect humans, is to have humans try it out. That's already
been done plenty of times with Mir - one poor sod was left up
there for over a YEAR while the Soviet Union fell apart beneath
him. With something like that happening, who needs mice? Get ON
with it, already.
SA> mice that've been in space a mere week is nothing compared to
SA> studying the after-effects of Russians being on Mir for months at
SA> a time.
LB> And one of the BEST things that is happening to NASA is that it is
LB> slowly coming out of it's need to COMPETE with other countries' space
LB> programs -- we are beginning to realize that what Mir learns is good
LB> for us -- and sharing what we know is good for us, too.
And Mir has done a hell of a lot more for finding out how
long-term microgravity affects the human body than the shuttle
ever will. And permanent factories with at least medium-scale
production would tell a lot more than micro-scale fooling around
with things on the shuttle or a small research satellite. Sure,
it'd be trial-and-error, but how long can these timid little
experiments go on? The barrier here is money - and money is
probably one of the worst inventions ever. I wonder how many
times money (the lack of it, or the lack of will to spend it) has
stood in the way of real progress ..
SA> What happened to the boldness of the Apollo project? So some
LB> The Evil Empire toppled -- we no longer see every mission as being the
LB> final bastion of democracy against the forces of communism.
That's a pretty sad excuse, though. Why humans only feel the need
to do something when it's competitive is beyond me.
SA> silly civilian died - big deal. She knew it might be dangerous
SA> when she went up - if she didn't, she was too dumb to be a
SA> teacher, anwyay. The character Q from ST:TNG probably said it
LB> I'm not sure why you feel the need to put down McAuliffe in order to
Oh, I'm not putting HER down - in fact, I'm a bit envious of her
(sure, she died, but WOW, what a way to go!). I'm putting down
the weaselly whiners who, upon seeing/remembering that ONE death,
would seem to want to retreat underground, never to even see the
stars again. ONE civilian death IS a _silly_ reason to backpedal
so hard. How many willing civilians (ie, not slaves or criminals)
died in the Voyages of Discovery 500 years ago, or on their way to
give things a whirl in the New World? Yes, it's too bad they
died, but _big fucking deal_. They wanted to go; they took the
risk; and the gamble (for them) failed. It shouldn't stop
everyone else from gambling, too.
LB> make your point -- you are right, one civilian death, while sad, does
LB> NOT mean that exploration should stop. The exploration of space has
LB> been far less hazardous then the exploration of our continent ever was.
LB> However, McAuliffe is not to blame for those who would stick their
LB> heads in the sand and insist we don't continue in the attempt. She
WAS
LB> aware of the risk -- as was her family and students. She was
LB> interviewed shortly before the launch and said as much. I believe that
LB> if she could have done it again, she would have -- even knowing.
SA> even 10 years on. Granted, I have no say in how much money NASA
SA> gets; but I certainly wouldn't mind having my taxes go towards
SA> contribution towards a joint international space project of a more
SA> grandiose sort. I want to see a REAL space station/dock in my
SA> lifetime, damnit.
LB> I'm in absolute agreement with you there! Unfortunately, you and I
LB> are probably already too old to be allowed to actually GO -- but I'd
LB> like to get a phone call from my grandkids in space. :)
Hell, I'd go even if I were 90. If it were the last thing I did,
it wouldn't matter. I got to at least try it.
SA> I don't remember any of the moon landings; I
SA> was too young. I did, however, skip school (with mom's
SA> permission) to witness the first shuttle launch, and I still
SA> remmeber how exciting and hopeful it all was. There's risk in
LB> Wow -- for some reason I thought you were my age. I remember the moon
Doubt it. I was only 13 when the first shuttle went up. :)
LB> walk, although I was a tad young to really understand the significance
LB> of it. More emotionally riveting was the Apollo 13 thing, which my
LB> parents let me stay up to watch (I could no more have slept knowing
LB> that drama was taking overhead than I could have flown up there to save
LB> them myself).
Mm. I'm sorry I don't remember that one .. I haven't seen the
movie yet, because I dislike paying to see Tom Hanks movies. He's
not one of my favourite actors, and he lost any respect I might
have had at all for him when he did Forrest Gump.
>>> Continued to next message...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [1/2] WHAT?? [2/2]
|Date: 12 Mar 96 17:49:07
EID:31c8 206c8e20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d45a
>>> Part 2 of 2...
LB> I was pregnant with my first daughter during the first shuttle mission
Yes, I'm definitely younger than you are. :)
LB> -- after such a LONG absence from space, this was the most exciting
LB> thing I'd seen in years. And even more profound than the launch (which
LB> was similar to the old launches, therefore not as "new") was the
LB> landing! We could go into space and come back normally -- not just
LB> toss our astronauts and all the hardware into the ocean. That seemed
LB> like a real turning point for me.
Seeing the shuttle go up was actually quite new, obviously, since
I'd never seen the Apollo launches live. But that landing was
indeed even more exciting, just for the concept of being able to
reuse the things. One of my favourite Golden Books that I had
when I was about 4 or 5 was a recounting of 60s style launches
(and was published about a year before the moon landing.) I think
it was called "YOU Will Go To THe Moon", and showed the units
dropping into the ocean with a parachute, and speculated that
maybe someday humans would actually walk on the moon (Actually,
come to think of it, it might have even been published in 1966 or
something silly like that.)
LB> The problem is, it looks like a very large, fast airplane when it
LB> lands. It's ...boring. (To some -- I'm still fascinated) So NASA
LB> doesn't get the airtime, until they have an accident, or lose a
LB> satellite. Funny, but isn't that just like the railways (which used
to
LB> be romantic and exciting), or airflight (which used to be romantic and
LB> exciting)? When something becomes a real part of our lives -- useful
LB> rather than glamourous -- we stop seeing it, until it messes up.
Yep. Even cars were exciting to see back in the 1890s.
LB> So, as much as I miss the "old days" -- the days of dreaming about
LB> being an astronaut, the days when they were "heros" simply for getting
LB> to go,
Well, the FIRST humans to do something can be termed a hero; but
the term sort of loses meaning if you use it on everyone
subsequent to that - which is why I have never thought of the
last Challenger crew as "heroes". Shuttle launches had become
more or less mundane by then, and the mundaness is at the root of
the accident - that's why people become careless drivers, or
careless mechanics, too. Now, I can consider the first Columbia
crew (of 2) "heroes", even though they survived - they went up in
a vehicle that had never been really tested in space before. They
didn't know for sure if the thing would make it, or if it could
_really_ land as promised.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... *KA-BOOOOOOM!* ... Whatever that was, I hope it's on _our_ side ...
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: [2/2] WHAT??
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:30:08
EID:6d9d 206c93c0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 3146d45b
A lone voice in the wilderness, Lynda mournfully howled out "[2/2] WHAT??"
LB> I'm kind of glad that it's gotten dull. It means that they can dig in
LB> and do some real work instead of hitting golf balls on the moon, and
LB> scripting patriotic patter for the astronauts to say. It means that
LB> they probably WILL eventually make it possible for my grandkids to
LB> break orbit.
That would take a hell of a lot more will and international
co-operation - and money - than anyone's willing to put forth
right now, though. Hopefully, folks will wake up quite soon and
realise that humanity cannot stay trapped on this little blue ball
forever if it expects to keep Malthusian effects from eventually
kicking in, since it seems determined to go on as it's always
done in the past, consuming and breeding like cockroaches with an
ever-growing [and ever growing discontent] underclass.
--Wolfie
If you work with your hands for your livelihood,
Some day you might have to choose;
When the class war rages on the factory floor,
If you don't fight, you lose.
--Redgum
... Humans aren't the only species on Earth. We just act like it.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Joanna Amren
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 13 Mar 96 19:55:00
EID:c556 206d9ee0
-> 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'. (Loosely)
Okay...that makes sense.:) Good advice too.:)
Joanna
--- PCBoard (R) v15.21/M 2
* Origin: Neon Jungle BBS * 210-656-0109 * San Antonio, Texas * (1:387/750)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 13 Mar 96 02:20:30
EID:d8e1 206d1280
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314786ea
REPLY: 1:228/45.2 3144af15
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Michael and Dave were killing time yakking about drool game:
DO> -=| On 07 Mar 96 23:01, Michael Hardy said: |=-
MH> This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and
MH> win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at
MH> least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.)
DO> Is it me, Mickey!?!? Huh??? Is it? As an aside, I'd be happy with
a
DO> little LD bill. As would Lynne!
I wonder if that qualifies as drool? ;)
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... "Listen, pin-beak, your mouth-wash just ain't happening!"
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: [2/2] Your Daily Murder
|Date: 14 Mar 96 00:46:42
EID:f6ad 206e05c0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 314786eb
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 240e8b1b
PID: BWPRO 3.06 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Al and Jim were killing time yakking about [2/2] Your Daily Murder:
JG> like to add to. Having said that....
JG> Again consider the fear during the Japanese interment. You were
JG> fighting a nation that had sneak attacked you before formally declaring
JG> war. You were also fighting a nation with an ideology of "kamikaze"
JG> attacks and "hari kari", which denotes little respect for life or some
JG> of the moral values that Americans understood. How could you trust
JG> people that had come from that type of culture, not to return to their
JG> roots during an attack by their mother land on your own. Would you turn
Many of the people placed in the camps did not see Japan as their "motherland"
any more than I claim Ireland as mine. They were born American -- they
weren't
trusted because they weren't Caucasian, plain and simple. We weren't putting
GERMAN Americans into camps, afraid that they might choose allegiance with
the
land of their grandparents, were we?
JG> your back on a Japanese person when Japan was at war with your country
JG> ? It was not a case of trying to exterminate the Japanese, but of self
JG> preservation I would think.
Self-preservation of one group of fearful Americans at the cost of another
group of Americans, who not only had to fear the possibility of Japanese
attack (and certainly aware that Japanese culture would have shown them
no
mercy for their American lifestyle, but also the very REAL fear of enduring
hostility and blatent theft of every thing they had at the hands of fellow
Americans, who once again decided that the only True Americans are white
and
Christian.
Lynda Bustilloz bustillo@ix.netcom.com
... First rule of fighting. Don't get hit.
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: Xtians are uncomplicated beings: pure and simpleton. (1:109/601)
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|From: Steve Rose
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Pagan March on DC
|Date: 14 Mar 96 08:23:02
EID:caaf 206e42e0
MSGID: 1:109/601.0 140f9abc
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 7545
Norbert Sykes wrote in a message to Steve Rose:
TB> for our own path, but with a little work on everyone's part, those
TB> paths can cross in Washington DC USA on October 31st 1997.
SR> Time to raise the drawspans around the Beltway again.
NS> Hmmm . . . why is this? You let a million blacks in
Uh huh. You didn't seems so sad watching them go.
NS> but have a problem with Pagans?
Pagan's make a conscious choice to be pagan. What greater productive value
to the society as a whole can be gained by such a superficial display?
--- IM2.29+/FE1.45a+/PB2.12+
* Origin: * Above Board * (1:109/601)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 14 Mar 96 13:02:06
EID:e20b 206e6840
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314850fb
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63a83b5e
J.J. Hitt said "Let me guess(Wrong)" to Brad Jackson,
adding:
BJ> Some people today don't take the time to read the bible,
BJ> which is God's word. They assume that their Pastor is
BJ> telling the truth. You must follow up on everything that is
BJ> be taught to you.
JH> What is firmament?
The contrary of flaccidment?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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PATH: 261/1000 662 1137 270/101 218/801
|From: Don Martin
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Going Away
|Date: 14 Mar 96 13:02:07
EID:e9d0 206e6840
PID: BWMAX2 3.11 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 314850fc
DAVID RICE said "Going Away" to ALL,
adding:
DR> so--- having a baby that has light skin and blue eyes is
DR> considered socially desirable. (Don Martin, eat your liver
DR> out!)
Why? I have light skin and blue eyes. And I used to be a
baby. Never been socially desirable, though.
The trip sounds terrific! Bon Voyage!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 12 Mar 96 15:32:00
EID:721a 206c7c00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E1B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 01:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Dan Ceppa
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan.
JG> take the form of people like Charles Manson :-)
DC> Holds true for the likes of Swaggart and Baker, too.
JG> Could be. God only knows though.
IOW, you don't even know for sure if your own minister is preaching
the word of god or Satan's word.
DC> Now, where is the evidence for the deity that's stronger than
DC> your god?
JG> You can make any deity stronger in your life than god. You can choose
I'm not the one with the need for Satan, Jim. You are the one
that believes in him. You can't even state with certainty that
your religion is not in fact controlled by your Satan.
... 10%10%10%....Sign of the Tithe.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 12 Mar 96 20:28:00
EID:2514 206ca380
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E1C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-09-96 00:08, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> not. They also claimed to have WITNESSED Him...returning from the
AS> dead. ALL of them.
DC> No, Al... There isn't a single direct account that says that
DC> anyone say him rise from the dead. Not only that, at least
AS> If you mean were they in the tomb, no. They certainly witnessed Him
AS> up and walking around after He died, though.
DC> one of the gospels tells of all the disciples running away
AS> On the contrary. The Gospel of John has John, at least, right there.
Yet, there are the contradictions in the other gospels, as well as
the fact that the John who supposedly wrote that gospel cannot
be identified as the disciple John.
AS> saying that if the Romans or the Sanhedrin had any doubts in their
AS> mind, they would not have placed him in a TOMB, but either in jail or
AS> back on the cross.
Why not? Bribery was always a good way to get your way back then.
This is besides the fact that there are no Roman records recording
the event in the first place.
... Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 12 Mar 96 20:50:00
EID:2514 206ca640
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E1D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 08:06, Judith Bandsma got back to Al Schroeder
AS> Ahhhh...where do you get off calling JESUS...a Jew...PETER...a
AS> Jew...John, the apostle...a Jew. David, Abraham, etc..."kikes, hebes,
JB> This was wonderful, Al. But in your zeal and indignation, you
JB> addressed it to DAN.
Yeah, Al! What's the idea about trying to make me look anti-semetic!
BTW, I already forwarded your response the improper party....
... True terror: A female Klingon with PMS.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:01:00
EID:f0e6 206ca820
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E1E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 17:38, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
JH>> conveince store) Cuban place that doesn't mess with menus.
JH>> You'll eat what "Mama" wants you to eat. And they'll
DC> Let me know if it stays or has stayed open for over 3 years
JH> The place has already been there for six or seven years. They
That's a good sign!
JH> The cusine is strictly cuban, mostly chicken with rice or beans and
About the only Cuban food I've had has been some black beans and
rice....
JH> "mildly hot" to "burns yer ass" and on up to "leaves scortch marks
JH> on table".
My kind of place! The Schezcuan restaurant where I used to eat
a lot liked the fact that they could cook like they wanted it
for me. Got to the point where they started to teach me to
speak Chinese. Sure do miss that place...
... God + Texas Chili + Beans = The Big Bang!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:17:00
EID:e52b 206caa20
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E1F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 01:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Dan Ceppa
JG> I don't know much about the Constitution, as a Canadian but isn't
JG> there something about America being "one nation undivided UNDER GOD
"?
DC> That wasn't there, until about 1954. The original pledge read, "...
DC> one Nation, with Libery and Justice for all." McCarthy and his
JG> Interesting, thanks for the history lesson :-)
It's unfortunate that not only did you need the lesson but that
you also chose to ignore it.
JG> Having said that however, I am sure that many Americans would agree
JG> that there is a "spirit of god" within the hearts of many Americans.
Popularity does not make something true, unless of course you also
agree that the world was flat until people started believing it
was an oblate spheroid.
JG> openly. The bad point is that you can also just use it as a label to
JG> impress people .
So far, you have impressed nobody .
Read Lynda Bustilloz's comments on the message that you sent that I'm
also responding to you.
... Close your eyes, click your heels together 3 times and yell "IS NOT!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:24:00
EID:3554 206cab00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E20
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-11-96 09:01, Ed Dutkiewicz got back to Dan Ceppa
>C-14 breaks down into C-12. A high concentration of C-14 would make
>a sample look far younger than it really is. That's one reason that
ED> CO2 mixture is picked up by the surrounding grass. Therefore the grass
ED> is dated older than it really is.
Which is why continous studies of the testing process are checked
against items of a known age so that variations such as that anomaly
can be cataloged properly. Unlike the fundies, scientists do not
rely on a single reading from a single sample.
... The Roadkill Cafe 'You Kill It... We Grill It!'
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: All
|Sub: Great sinners for god!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:29:00
EID:2ffd 206caba0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E21
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 01:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Preston Simpson
PS> Given the depredations of various "holy men" glorified in the Bible
JG> Actually you are entirely correct. The so called holy men in the
JG> bible. Great men of god were involved in such things as murder and
JG> adultery.
Makes you really want to go out an worship a god that has as it's
holy men a bunch of murderers and adulterers, don't it?
... "How talk you, yes. That, do we. Idiot, fucking, you are.": Yoda
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:36:00
EID:365c 206cac80
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E22
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-11-96 12:02, J.j. Hitt got back to Shelby Sherman
MH>> Rose and David Worrell.
SS> Coward.
JH> You're just jealous that he didn't include you.
JH> (I feel the same way.)
It's your own fault! You've just been too nice to the boy...
... "What do you mean that I didn't make your twit list!": A runner up
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:45:00
EID:68ee 206cada0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E23
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 04:33, Andrew Masten got back to Preston Simpson
AM> Jim, your not gonna make alot of friends in this echo. But I like
AM> your hudspa.
PS> "hudspa"? Are you perhaps trying to spell "chutzpah"?
AM> Yeah, thats it. Score one for Preston!!
You have so many scores on your head that you look like a file.
Run along and play with your schwantz on your own time. You are
are embarassing yourself, meshugannah.
... Don't bother with a CAT scan, your brain wouldn't even fill one pixel.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Oliver
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:54:00
EID:004d 206caec0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E24
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-11-96 00:00, John Oliver got back to All
JO> Am I getting out? Actually, this is a test message to see if the FD
JO> mailer is making it out? Please respond, flames accepted!
Why? Planning to BBQ something?
... Maybe He did say something and it just was not recorded. - Steve Bedar
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Kenneth is atheist
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:00:00
EID:4a60 206cb000
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E25
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 22:27, Kenneth Mcabee got back to David Rice
DR> The Bible mentions dozens. Why do you enjoy shooting yourself
DR> in the foot?
KM> And which one does it call the only True God?
The one that it selected, poorly. Too bad your religion went
for the gold and ignored the truth.
... The proctologist called.... your head is ready.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12
* Origin: Ten Forward BBS, The Olympic Peninsula. (1:350/401.0)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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PATH: 350/401 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Let me guess(Wrong)
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:05:00
EID:e849 206cb0a0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E26
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 20:20, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
-> On 03-06-96 12:17, Brad Jackson got back to Masochistic Maiden
BJ> I hope this helps you out. I would suggest looking for a church
BJ> that is Acts 2:38 teachers.
DC> Don't bother, as it closed before the end of the first Act...
MB> That's Steve WINTERS' favorite citation! I wonder if he's here,
MB> posting under a pseudonym!?
That would be intersting! Do you happen to have Winters origin
line handy to check it out?
Also, is using a handle the same thing as lying? If so, let's
point it out to the "lovable" xian!
... "God breaks his laws only when necessary.": Mikey Hardy
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Marines, etc.
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:20:00
EID:00fb 206cb280
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E27
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-11-96 19:58, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
DM> chunk of a kid's life, it is major. You'll miss a lot.
DC> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
DC> Going soft on sentiment, you old curmudgeon?
DC> After all, turn-about is most definitely fair play! :)
DM> Some of us are only human, your deityship.
Which is why I had already decided not to revoke your status
as the HolySmoke Curmudgeon. Now, stop grovelling or I'll have
to demote you to Old Fart...
Damn, this Echo is such fun!
BTW, any luck in contacting the local college out here?
... Frankenstein's monster in Jerusalem = Scaring the bejeezus of Nazareth
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Message to Asmodeus
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:25:00
EID:f1fe 206cb320
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E28
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-09-96 04:01, Al Schroeder got back to Dan Ceppa
AS> Open and shut case. I hope Asmodiddly is RICH...I could care less
AS> if we jail him. (Maybe a court order not to go near a computer for
DC> it would lower the humor content a bit...
AS> Hmmmm....six months of logging onto Steve Winter's echo? They could
AS> curse (literally) each other...
If we could find a way to do that we most definitely could sell
tickets! It would put even professional wresting to shame with
both of their lack of integrities.
(Remember, folks, you heard it from Al and myself first!)
... Barney is to television what Steve Winter is to Fidonet.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: Our daily bread
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:33:00
EID:1bca 206cb420
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E29
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 21:40, J.j. Hitt got back to Sue Alexander
SA> This is from the Principia Discordia, which is a
SA> pseudo-holy book for followers of the Discordian movement.
SA> It is loosely based on the Illuminatus trilogy by Robert
SA> Anton Wilson.
JH> ERROR: The Principia pre-dates the Illuminatus trilogy.
That's what they want you to belie&*@%$@@@ CARRIER DROP 23
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:51:00
EID:2eb0 206cb660
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E2A
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 01:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Dan Ceppa
JG> Would you prefer they encouraged people to bear and keep arms.
DC> It's been in our Constitution for over 100 yrs now.
JG> I know
You know now. You didn't when you shot your mouth off and shot
yourself in the foot.
JG> is it better than encouraging people not to steal or kill. Maybe
Please show where the Second Ammendent advocates stealing and/or
killing? You are rapidly running out of feet that aren't riddled
with wounds generated by your complete lack of knowledge of the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
JG> the ten commandments should be enshrined in the constitution :-)
You again fail to realize that this country was not founded on
your little book of fables but upon the rule of law.
I suggest you do a bit more research and, at the same time, give the
holes you shot in your feet a chance to heal before the next
time you you aim at them without anesthesia via your uncorrected
myopic view of the world.
... This is your brain. This is your brain with sausage, toast and jam.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 12 Mar 96 23:16:00
EID:4704 206cba00
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E2B
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 04:31, Andrew Masten got back to Jim Germiquet
JG> Precisely, but there are too many spoiled brats today who want to
JG> blame everyone else for the consequences of their own choices and the
AM> Blame shifting has become an art form.
And it's called the "Not True Xian". You fit that bill quite
nicely.
... +Origin: DECEPTION, NETWORK! Really Spreading the Jesus!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Fried Ice Cream
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:55:51
EID:b842 206d4ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E2C
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
Hey, Al!
Told you that Fried Ice Cream was real... Here's a couple of
recipes if you want to give it a try:
-> On 03-11-96 22:35, Elizabeth Wood got back to Dan Ceppa
EW> Yep. :-) You ask, you got!
MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.02
Title: FRIED MEXICAN ICE CREAM
Categories: Ices, Desserts, Mexican
Yield: 4 servings
1 pt Vanilla ice cream -OR-
- other flavor
1/2 c Cornflakes; crushed -OR-
- cookie crumbs
1 ts Ground cinnamon
2 ts Sugar
1 Egg
Oil for deep frying
Honey
Whipped cream
Scoop out 4 to 5 balls of ice cream. Return to freezer. Mix
cornflake crumbs, cinnamon and sugar. Roll frozen ice cream balls in
half of crumb mixture and freeze again. Beat egg and dip coated balls
in egg, then roll again in remaining crumbs. Freeze until ready to
use. (For thicker coating, repeat dipping in egg and rolling in
crumbs.) When ready to serve, heat oil to 350~. Place 1 frozen ice
cream ball in fryer basket or on perforated spoon and lower into hot
oil 1 minute. Immediately remove and place in dessert dish. Drizzle
with honey and top with dollop of whipped cream. Continue to fry
balls one at a time. Balls will be crunchy on outside and just
beginning to melt inside.
Makes 4 to 5 servings
MMMMM
MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.02
Title: Fried Ice Cream Puffs
Categories: Dessert, Ice cream, Sthrn/livng
Yield: 10 servings
1 c Water
1/2 c Butter (or marg.)
1 1/2 c Flour, all-purpose
5 Eggs
3 1/3 c Ice cream, vanilla
Oil, vegetable
Syrup, raspberry; or other
-fruit flavored syrup
Combine water and butter in a medium saucepan; bring mixture to a
boil. Reduce heat to low and add flour, stirring vigorously
until mixture leaves sides of pan and forms a smooth ball. Remove
saucepan from the heat, and allow mixture to cool slightly.
Add eggs, one at a time, beating with a wooden spoon after each
addition; beat until batter is smooth.
Drop batter by scant one-third cupfuls about 3 inches apart on
lightly greased baking sheets. Bake at 350 degrees for 40 minutes or
until golden brown and puffed. Cool puffs on wire racks away from
drafts.
Cut off top of each puff; pull out and discard soft dough inside.
Fill bottom halves with vanilla ice cream, and cover with top halves.
Wrap in aluminum foil and freeze.
Fry ice cream puffs in deep hot oil (350 degrees) for 30 to 40
seconds or until golden brown. Drain on paper towels, and serve
immediately with commercial fruit-flavored syrup.
SOURCE: Southern Living Magazine, June 1985. Typos by Nancy Coleman.
MMMMM
EW> -Elizabeth
... The Garbage Disposal God requires the offering of a spoon
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: netmail
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:55:54
EID:f6ee 206d4ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E2D
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-11-96 04:28, Judith Bandsma got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> I got the latest from you. Sorry I can't answer it.
And to think I never ask hard questions... ;)
JB> So, to keep them wondering...no, sponge cake really shouldn't be made
Secret handshake acknowledged...
JB> with real sponges: cajun 'blackened' cooking came about from an
JB> accident with a spice rack and a flame that was too high:
See tagline!
JB> snowshoes don't work as well as water skis:
Yes they do! Went snowshoeing the other day. Didn't have a chance
to use the waterskis, as the boat could get through the 4 foot of
snow on the ground. <-- semi serious, as I did go snow shoeing!
... Burnt it? Hey, wait, call it "Blackened"! - Don Prudomme
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: of "bats" and "birds"
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:55:55
EID:9f4c 206d4ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E2E
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 01:48, Jim Germiquet got back to Dan Ceppa
JG> problem. The problem is when one ideology interferes with the rights
of
JG> other people.
DC> that can co-exist with other ideologies has at least learned
DC> the important lesson of tolerance for different ideas.
JG> I see the point. And yes when the religion becomes a political
JG> instrument.
Which is why I want to see religion out of politics and gvt in general.
JG> didn't want to implement a religious institution that would control
JG> people. He wanted each man to worship god as an individual. Of course
Unfortunately, the followers of that theolgy seem to have gotten lost.
Perhaps it was because they found power in their control of the
uneducated masses that they conned into believing in it.
... Information: the key to survival!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Staal shows his colon...
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:55:55
EID:46d3 206d4ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E2F
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-11-96 00:30, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
SQ> Let me guess: Harrison Ford said "The horror...the horror," right?
DC> No, that was said by Les Nessman.
SA> I thought he was the one who said "Oh, the humanity!" :)
He said that right after, "the horror..". If you remember seeing
it, it's a rather big rip-off of the broadcast based around the
Hindenburg disaster in Lakewood, NJ.
DC> ... "Honest to God, Big Guy, I thought turkeys could fly..." Herb
SA> Tarlick
SA> I recieved a lot of confused corrections over this over on
SA> ... As God is my witness .. I thought turkeys could fly! - Arthur
SA> Carlson -!- GEcho 1.00
I don't rember Carlson being directly involved in the publicity stunt.
It seems that the whole thing was Tarlick's "brain" child..
One of these days I'll have to tape WKRP, just to make sure.
Damn, that was a great show! Made TV actually worth watching.
... Revivals in 30min, or your next religion is free!: Dogmanoes Piety
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:55:56
EID:4704 206d4ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E30
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 04:00, Andrew Masten got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> And, having that ransom in your pocket, you proceed to persecute
DC> all that don't follow you hatred. How convenient.
AM> Who, when and where am I persecuting someone Dan.
DC> The "you" in my statement is about your religion. Or have you
DC> forgotten all the "good" things that it has down in your godling's
AM> Dan, that is a tired old tune your humming.
Perhaps it's time you changed your tune and stopped trying to
provide frontal lobotomies for non-believers.
AM> Anyone can claim to be a
AM> Christian, and do what they want under that banner.
And, most often, they did just that, with the support of the
church in power. Yep, they were "true xians", as their church
condoned their actions.
AM> to find support for such actions under Christ's teachings. All you
AM> could come up with is a verse out of context. In reality, those who
"If you don't hate your family. If not, You can't follow me". Yep,
just downright homey.
AM> adhere to Christ's teachings, have been the salt of the earth. Prior
Such a pity that salting the earth destroys its ability to grow
anything on that very earth. Your homily was invented by a bunch
of nimadic marauders who had not even an inkling of what ecology is.
AM> charitable work. In Christ's time, there were no food banks, no
AM> shelters for the homeless no clothing drives. And, as this country
Try reading the Book of Ruth, written before your godling was a
twinkle in Joseph's eye.
AM> was unthinkable, now, there's abortion on demand, and the taxpayer
AM> pays for it.
Bullshit. The taxpayer pays far more for deliveries of babies,
by a factor of 100:1 You brought cost into the discusion. You
better look at the facts, as you don't seem to have a bit of
data to support your claim. The 100:1 figure is only up to
birth. It does not include the additional taxpayer costs of
having to support the mother and her children until that child
and mother goes off of welfare.
... Death is life's way of telling you you've been fired.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 13 Mar 96 09:55:56
EID:f0e6 206d4ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401.0 89400E31
TID: WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 92-0416
-> On 03-10-96 21:32, J.j. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> meal or complain to the Board of Health. Haggis is today's
DC> only offaling...."
JH> You could make it a drive-thru fast food place and call it
JH> Haggis By The Baggies.
So, what's your suggestion for the days that we serve Bangers?
JH> You could have people place their orders by talking to a huge
JH> plastic sheep in the parking lot with a speaker where it's
It should at least draw in the fundy crowd...
Next week: The Rocky Mountain Oyster Festival... You select and
get your own, the Basque way!
... Feces occurrus. -Latin Itshay appenshay. -Pig Latin
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 13 Mar 96 22:07:00
EID:5546 206db0e0
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3147B44A
PS> MB> Now there are three other account's of a great flood That are not
PS> MB> biblical in nature the are some differaces in the Divinty in question.
PS>So what? There are multiple accounts referring to the divinity of Zeus.
PS>Does that mean he's a real god?
Nope but it does not mean that his is not a real god ethier.
PS> MB> These are from Mesopotamian, one is from Sumerian and is the oldest
PS> MB> and the fullest. The next is from a Akkadian text, and finaly the
flood
PS>Did it ever occur to you that there's a *reason* all of these stories
are
PS>from the Tigris-Euphrates area? The Fertile Crescent was the subject
of
PS>many floods throughout history--Woolley found evidence of a big one
PS>dating to circa 2500 BCE in the 1880s. Now, you can take this the way
Yea it does stand to *reason* that they lived in a flood plane that they
would have a "Myth" about a great flood. For as I'm sure that someone
will notice it would seem to them that their whole world did flood.
PS> MB> is talked about in the Gilgamesh Epic. These all say that a "God"
PS> MB> caused a flood that destroyed all mankind save one Man and his familly
PS> MB> and that he build a great boat and save animals and his family.
and
PS> MB> that when the flood was over he made a scriface to God.
PS>When something unexplainable happened in ancient times, it was usually
PS>attributed to the work of a god--that's the trait of a primitive mind.
PS>Nothing to be ashamed of, but it doesn't automatically mean that they
PS>were telling the truth.
True again. But it also does not mean that the were lieing ether. For
example I disagre with your theory and you disagre with mine but I am
not going to call you a lier. Because with you agre with me or I agre
with you does not realy matter. What Matters is that you have some
convictions of some kind. I have freinds that are Pagan, Cathiolic, and
sevral other religions. You know what I love them all and I love all of
you. I'm not here to change your mind I'm here to have some good old
fasion discution. You see I am a little to libral for some of my fellow
christians. See I even have freinds that are Gay. So I come to this
echo for a informal area of discution. So have at the fellow
free thinker's and if you think just because I am a Christian I can't
be a free thinker, give me a try.
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Lead me not into TEMPTATION. I can Find IT MYSELF!!
* LAKOTA v1.5
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|From: Mark Barnett
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 13 Mar 96 22:26:00
EID:9156 206db340
MSGID: 1:3819/163 3147B44B
DM> Personally, I have said many times that I would welcome ANY
DM> evidence of the existence of any god, and I have even specified
DM> indirect evidence that would be quite convincing, not only to
Sound resanable to me. But I can not give you a any evidence that you
would belive. You see to me my GOD is something that I have experaced in
my heart. Now I could say that the Bible is all the evidence you need it
is not. It was not for me. I mean it was not a even convecing to the
jews to have Jesus among them. So we will discuse things and have a good
argument or two but no hard feelins ok.
DM> instance in which that spiritual being supposedly interacted
DM> physically with the physical world in a way that would have
DM> produced distinctive physical consequences. While we have seen
DM> fundies claim that their god is so deceitful as to cover his
DM> tracks, I, for one, would presume that such a dishonest being is
DM> unworthy of being taken seriously, much less of worship.
Well I don't know about that but I do not believe that god hid anything
or "coverd his tracks". I just have faith that all of the questions that
I need anserd and can not do for myself will be anserd in the end.
DM> able to follow the reasoning. It only confuses them, leading
DM> them to drag out yet another version of the Deceitful God, who,
DM> they claim, sets the laws of physics aside his wonders to
DM> perform. Instead, I simply take the Genesis account at its face
DM> value, looking at the effects that much water falling at that
DM> rate would inescapably have upon the face of the earth.
Works for me. Well some say that is what makes it a wonder. But I think
that we my have miss understod the story or even missed the hole point.
DM> We have an account of a global flood directly produced by
DM> Yahweh in the Bible. Given the fact that we have information,
DM> presumably from a source inspired by omniscience, of the extent
DM> of the flood ("over the highest mountains," or roughly 30,000
DM> feet above present sea level) and of the time of the rain (40
DM> days and 40 nights = 40 24-hour days = 960 hours), it is easy to
DM> calculate the rate of the rainfall: 30,000/960 = 31.25 feet of
DM> water fell per hour. That is little better than six inches of
DM> rainfall per minute.
Well it looks like you have done more study on the flood than anyone I
know. Would you mind if I showed this to some freinds of mine in Church.
DM> I would think that "gullywasher" fails to do this rate
That's the truth.
DM> Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
DM> evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
DM> tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic particles
DM> or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the existence of
DM> enormous gravitational forces only explicable by the presence of
DM> a black hole.
Well I can agree on that and thank you for this post I told a Preacher
freind of mine about this to night at his church and he said that our
argument was for nought that the stratum had been found but that the
non-belivers had hid the evidence so as not to prove the Bible. Well I
told him that was a bit parinod and that he should have a little more
compasion on other peoples Ideals. Well I'm not welcome at that church
anymore but thats alright. I told my Preacher and he said if we get
anywhere he wanted a copy of the evidence becuse he did not have any.
Well we can just keep on looking. Well L8R.3
Your Brother in Christ,
Mark Barnett
* OLX 2.1 TD * Curiosity? Nah, I got THAT cat witth a lawnmower.
* LAKOTA v1.5
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:08:00
EID:bd7e 206c0100
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
DW> 05 Mar 96 06:28, Andrew Masten wrote to Dan Ceppa:
AM> I haven't seen anyone bother to cite evidence of how the universe
AM> self assembled out of atoms, and then atoms ultimately self
AM> assembled into man.
DW> That's because no one has made that claim, numbnuts. You have made a
Oh, really David. Thats because your not man enough to stand up and tell
us
your explanation for how we got here. Until then you just expose yourself
as a coward who's only secure enough to be critical of others beliefs while
offering no alternative.
DW> claim, however, and have provided nothing to support it other than
DW> supposition. Where is your *evidence*?
I did provide evidence that suggests were here by design. When are you
going to join the big boys step up to the plate and provide some evidence
for whatever you believe, that your too scared to share on this echo??
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:21:00
EID:c0b6 206c02a0
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Andrew Masten <=-
DW> 07 Mar 96 22:30, Rob Burcham wrote to Andrew Masten:
AM> RB>> You are correct. It is evidence that they 'believed'. Some
AM> RB>> people 'believe' they've been abducted by aliens. Are you
AM> RB>> willing to accept THEIR beliefs?
AM>>
AM>> If, on threat of execution by torture, they did not recant, I
AM>> would be compelled to believe they were not fabricating a
AM>> story.
DW> Do you believe Joan of Arc's claim that she talked to God?
Anyone can talk to God David, even you.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: THUMB-SUCKING EVOLUNG
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:24:00
EID:5bcd 206c0300
-=> Quoting Preston Simpson to Andrew Masten <=-
PS> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Andrew Masten Thumb-sucking Evolung wgah'nagl
PS> fhtagn.
KS> And what is 'there' theories?
AM> One would be A.I Orapin " Origin of Life" Macmillian 1924
PS> ^^^^
PS> Couldn't you find anything more recent?
I wanted to show that some scientists were advancing these theories not
long after Darwin. Yes, there's more recent stuff. Many scientists are
determined to show were here by natural causes no matter how long it takes.
AM> He advanced various hypothesis of how life could begin from
AM> inanimate matter.
PS> And are these hypotheses widely accepted by the scientific community?
Yes and no. Many scientists still believe( on the basis of faith) that
were here by natural processes. Making and replicating RNA and DNA are
difficult even under labratory conditions, never mind happening by
itself.
PS> ... Be Alert . . . The world needs more Lerts.
PS> -!- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
PS> ! Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN
PS> (1:123/318)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Andrew Masten
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: EVIDENCE
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:39:00
EID:ffe2 206c04e0
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Andrew Masten <=-
DM> Andrew Masten said "Evidence" to Dan Ceppa,
DM> adding:
DC> It's all in your religious beliefs. Too bad your religion has
DC> never honored them without a sword pointed at the throats of
DC> the non-believers.
AM> Has anyone claiming to be a Christian witnessed to you at knife
AM> point?
DM> No, but one named Paul Hill recently carried the day in
DM> a theological dispute with an abortionist by using a
DM> 12-guage shotgun. The word "sword" above is a metaphor for
DM> the exercise of force in general, I suspect. Ceppa's
DM> observation also covers the doings of the Inquisition, and
DM> they never used swords at all.
There is no scriptural basis for Paul Hill's actions. These guys hurt
the very cause they are fighting for. The courts should deal with him
like any other murderer.
There's no justification for the inquisition. You can accept or reject
Christ's teachings, on thier own merit, and not on the conduct of
sadists masquarading as Christians. I personally believe, that my conduct
of trying my best to adhere to Christ's teachings, is my most powerful
witness to the truth of Christ.
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 13 Mar 96 20:43:17
EID:6d61 206da560
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31473396
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3144edce
12 Mar 96 02:05, Lynda Bustilloz wrote to David Worrell:
MH>> and win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom,
MH>> you win at least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it
MH>> if it happens.)
DW>> I'll give $20 to whoever makes Mikey leave for a month.
LB> I think I get it -- Michael has to leave for a month, and he doesn't
LB> want anyone here thinking they "ran him out", so he's controlling his
LB> exit.
I hadn't thought about that - you're probably right. :)
LB> This sort of reminds me of Willy Wonka's contest -- which
LB> reminds me of chocolate -- which reminds me of....YOU!
THat's all part of my plan.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: legislation
|Date: 13 Mar 96 20:44:21
EID:d97d 206da580
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 3147341c
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3144edd1
12 Mar 96 02:30, Lynda Bustilloz wrote to David Worrell:
LB> Michael and David were killing time yakking about legislation:
MH>> Like the religion-based laws against stealing other peoples'
MH>> property? No, I don't think we should repeal those laws.
DW>> Are you claiming Hammurabi was a god, Mikey? So much for you
DW>> being a Christian.
DW>> Would someone *not* in Mikey's twit filter please forward this to
DW>> him? Thanks.
LB> That depends. If this message winds up being forwarded by the Top
LB> Secret Drool Winner, and results in Mike leaving for a month, will you
LB> still pay the $20.00, even if it was your words that resulted in his
LB> departure?
The way I understood the Hardly challenge, the drool has to *originate*
with the soon-to-be-twit in question. However, if it happens that my forwarded
messages earn the STBT his place in Mikey's twit filter, then I will still
pay the newest member of our proud ranks the $20.
LB> (If you say yes, every person in this echo is likely to forward
LB> him a copy of this post)
I'm hoping that happens anyway :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 13 Mar 96 20:42:21
EID:9000 206da540
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31473361
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 3144edcb
12 Mar 96 01:18, Lynda Bustilloz wrote to David Worrell:
DW>> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male
DW>> scum - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't
DW>> phase those of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
LB> Real southern male, eh?
LB> Ok....let's see....
LB> How about if we offer you a MOON pie, and serve it in the back of a
LB> pick-up truck after a lovely afternoon mud-riding. We'll even let
LB> your favorite hound dog lick it first. :)
Just like Preston, you've swallowed the popular myth. Those people aren't
R,T Southerners - they are the descendents of the carpetbaggers. :)
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 13 Mar 96 20:46:26
EID:d81c 206da5c0
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 31473684
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 1459dc75
12 Mar 96 10:44, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to David Worrell:
TP> David Worrell wrote in a message to Terry Liberty-Parker:
DW>> 07 Mar 96 13:19, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to Jim Germiquet:
TP>> substance to those allegations, it STILL doesn't warrent running
TP>> tanks thru a residence occupied by men, women and children.
DW>> How many tanks were run through the residence, Parker?
TP> At least one.
Do you always lie so poorly, Terry? Anybody who has seen any of the Waco
footage can see at least 2 lies inherent in your claim.
Lie #1: There were no tanks at Waco. There were a few AFVs.
Lie #2: Neither any imaginary tanks nor any real AFVs were driven *through*
the residence.
TP> Is there some kind of 'tank assault threshold number' that your
TP> fishing for? If there's less than the magic number of tanks the
TP> assault is ok wiht you.
What tanks? There were no tanks there, Terry.
TP> What's your point?
My point, that you've helped so much in illustrating, is that you are a
fool.
DW>> If "tanks" had "assaulted" the compound, none of the BD's would
DW>> have survived to testify, pinhead. You do know what an 120mm main
DW>> gun does, don't you?
TP> Oh, you're actually in DENIAL about the tank assault described in the
Yes, I do deny that there was a tank assault. Why? Because there were no
tanks there to do the assaulting. Has this point sunk into your tiny little
brain yet?
TP> Associated Press story printed in the Austin American-Statesman
TP> (largest daily circulation newspaper in Austin, Tx) on March 1,
TP> 1994 on page B 3.
TP> Here, let me refreshh your memory:
TP> "I couldn't imagine anybody being in a home with that many women and
TP> children and having a big tank coming through the front door. And
TP> they penetrated a room's length or more... This is America. This
TP> isn't a police state. I don't care what they did. I can't see that.
TP> And I wasn't predetermined. I didn't realize the tanks had done that
TP> until I was shown by the govenment," she said. - Juror at trial of
TP> surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press story in Mar
1,
TP> 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
So? You've got the statement of *one* juror. Nothing is said about the others.
If the other jurors were in agreement with the one you quote at the drop
of a hat, I'm sure you would have told us. Since you haven't, we can only
assume that the other jurors think that both you and the loon quoted above
are morons.
BTW, you're getting more fundy-like every day. The fundies quote irrelevancies
from their Bible, and you quote irrelevncies from the AP. At least the fundies
have more than one quote.
TP> Should the 'tank' drivers
There were no tank drivers there, Terry.
TP> be exempted from manslaughter charges
TP> because they 'were just following orders?'
How many people died from being ran over by a Bradley (the vehicle you continue
to call a tank)?
TP> Branch Davidians were investigated and tried. So far there have
TP> been NO criminal indictments over federal culpablility at Waco.
Should we let people get away with refusal to honor a search warrant, Terry?
If the BDs had simply let the agents in, none of this would have happened.
I am hard pressed to feel any amount of pity for people who believe they
have the right to flagrantly violate the laws of the country, state, and
county they reside in. Fuck 'em.
---
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|From: David Worrell
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 13 Mar 96 20:56:36
EID:d81c 206da700
MSGID: 1:3615/41.11 314736e8
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 1459dc73
12 Mar 96 10:28, Terry Liberty-Parker wrote to David Worrell:
TP>> You boys look sooo cute.... exposing your biases and jacking each
TP>> other off in public like this.....
DW>> Neither Fred nor I have ever denied being biased against paranoid
DW>> little fucks who create an atmosphere like the one that led to
DW>> the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building.
TP> Hey, a NEW 'conspiracy' theory. It was ATMOSPHERE bombs!
Where did I say anything about atmosphere bombs? What the hell is an atmosphere
bomb anyway? You really should try to *read* the messages you respond to,
numbnuts.
DW>> Why can't you simply have the backbone to stand up and accept
DW>> your responsibility for adding to that atmosphere, Parker?
TP> So your 'theory' is that I (acting alone?) attacked the Murrah Federal
TP> Building in Ok City with 'ATMOSPHERE' bombs.
Again, where did I state any such thing? There are classes you can take
to improve your reading comprehension, you know.
TP> until I was shown by the govenment," she said. - Juror at trial of
TP> surviving Branch Davidians quoted in Associated Press story in Mar
TP> 1, 1994 Austin American-Statesman page b3.
See previous message.
---
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:02:00
EID:78cd 206b4040
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A98E84
AS> MB> Oh, yes. I'd exist without him. I'm here, aren't I? Where is
AS> MB> he? I do not see him, nor do I acknowledge the petty tyrant in
AS> MB> my imagination.
AS>
AS> I'm sure Charlie Schultz could make Charlie Brown have the exact same
AS> thought balloon as what you just said. And similarly, Charlie Brown
AS> might wonder about his creator, and why he cannot perceive him.
RB> I'm sure Charlie Schultz could draw an image of God and
RB> make it say whatever he wanted. Avid Schultz fans might
RB> even become convinced the image was real, while others
RB> would know all along that Charlie created it.
And Doonesbury could create a drawing of Charlie Schwartz creating an
image of God. Ad infinitum. All we have established is that Marilyn's
original statement, of "I'm here, aren't I? Where is he?" means nothing
when we are talking about a creator. A creator need not necessarily be on
the same plane as a creaTION. It doesn't prove it, either. Just that
either way, the statement is irrelevant.
... No one could pin anything on Lady Godiva.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:04:00
EID:ef9b 206b4080
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A99190
JH> Captain is a rather specific title and not one that can be
JH> self-assumed.
AS> It's really pretty simple.
NS> I know you're dealing with mostly heroes here, but I suddenly
NS> dawned on one General in the group . . . General Zod, who (though a
NS> villan) did have a rank legally, I assumed. Just more trivia.
And there was the gloriously inept, aptly titled, Major Disaster, whose
super-powers was to cause disasters around him, head of the equally inept
Injustice League...which consisted of Clock King, Cluemaster (a former
writer for "Jeopardy">, Multi-Man, who suffered mood swings like nobody's
business, the huge, strong, and incredibly stupid Big Sir...all of DC's
silliest villains in one HILARIOUS team. (Later the Justice League tried
to "kick them upstairs" where they could do the least harm, and tried to
make them heroes...Justice League Antartica. They lasted one issue, where
they fought penguins whose DNA had been spliced with paranhas...
Inspired silliness.
... They got the library at Alexandria. They're not getting mine.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:05:00
EID:b620 206b48a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A99758
AS> I didn't say it was ORGANIZED. I just said I knew it fairly well
DC> Sounds a lot like my office, aka, dumpster!
Besides, when you're searching for something, you always find something
you had forgotten about!
AS> records, no system, but knows, by long familiarity, where everything
DC> Same here!
Except when I REALLY need it, and that's when I can't find it.
AS> And generally, those that only buy "first editions" end up losing
AS> money in the long run. There are a lot of hopeful number one issues
DC> I did that only a couple of times. I decided to buy future ones
DC> based on how well I thought I might like the story line.
Wise. Super-heroes aren't always winners...most of them can be big losers
in the sales field.
DC> As I mentioned, for some reason, I never could get into DC. I think
DC> it had to do with the art work. Just too blah...
Though it's funny...many of the DC artists went over to Marvel and worked
quite well, to much praise (and vice versa...Jack Kirby came to DC and
created the New Gods, Mr.Miracle, the Forever People, the Demon, and of
course Kirby also created the Challengers of the Unknown before he went
to
Marvel.) Gil Kane drew both Spider-Man and Green Lantern, etc.
Partly it was the philosophy. The DC writing method, for the most part,
is or was that the writer did a complete script, like a film script, and
the artist followed the writer's directions exactly. That only works if
you have a writer with an excellent graphic imagination--Neil Gaiman and
Alan Moore come to mind, whose scripts are EXTREMELY detailed and
well-paced and thought out. Marvel, on the other hand, did the story
conference, then let the artist draw the story anyway he wanted, letting
him use the artwork to best effect, and then the writer wrote in the
actual dialogue AFTER the artwork was done. It seems a backward way, but
it really worked to Kirby's, Ditko's, and Buscema's advantage.
DC> I never did quite figure out how x-ray vision would be so selective
DC> as to get through a layer of clothing and not what was underneath.
DC> However, in the first Superman movie, they used the implication
DC> rather neatly!
As Larry Niven said in "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex", if people go
around shamelessly without lead in their underwear, it's hardly Superman's
fault. A hilarious article, BTW, if you have never read it, telling us
exactly why it why it was suicidal for Lois Lane to consummate her lust
for Superman (hint: Kryptonian muscles. He'd blow off the top of her
head. The sperm would emerge with the muzzle velocity of a cruise
missile.)
DC> Thor was more of a "non-violent" Conan through much of it's run. The
DC> one's I remember the most are the ones where they are all fighting
DC> Loki to prevent Ragnarok.
And trolls like Ulik. He was plenty violent, just not with anyone mortal
or human. (Kirby's trolls are probably how I pictured Tolkien's orcs, and
I have mentioend the way Kirby drew Balder is probably my mental picture
of Aragorn.)
DC> You mentioned "religious comics"... Dr Strange would probably
DC> be considered the philosophical version.
Yeah, Ditko or Lee (probably Ditko), evidently DID know something about
occultism...astral bodies, a "third eye"(even if courtesy of the Eye of
Agamotto), etc.
AS> Ever read Robert E. Howard in the ORIGINAL? Thomas did a faithful
DC> Never read any of REH, just know him through the Conan's.
They are pretty faithful, but nothing quite matches the real feel of REH's
prose, undiluted. Not great writing, but forceful and colorful.
AS> fascinating character (whom Thomas also put in comics for a while) is
AS> Solomon Kane, a moody, well built, gaunt PURITAN who would kill others
DC> Got at least a few issues of that!
Yeah. I remember one issue of that black and white DRACULA magazine which
was a companion piece to the color TOMB OF DRACULA comic that had Solomon
Kane versus Dracula. Now THERE'S a match...
AS> vampires, sorcery, all the other stuff---sort of a cross between
AS> Cromwell, an Erroll Flynn movie, and Conan.
DC> Cromwell seems like a very good analogy!
Yeah. Same sort of iron underneath, an unwavering fanaticism.
... "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you." - Inigo Montoya
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: arguments
|Date: 11 Mar 96 09:05:00
EID:13e2 206b48a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A99A5A
AS> Yeah, I think Ellis must have been reading him, because he makes much
the
AS> same point in BEFORE THE BEGINNING...that a God always readily apparent
AS> would cause some to do the moral thing not BECAUSE it was the moral
thing,
AS> but because they felt, in effect, "the principal is watching".
RB> Don't Christians believe "the principal is watching"? Or is
RB> it 'out of sight, out of mind'?
Any believer, if he is honest with himself, admits there is a chance he
is
wrong. Just as any nonbeliever, if he is honest with himself, admits there
is a chance HE is wrong, and there is a god. So the assurance is there,
but it is easy to forget at convenient times, BECAUSE God is not readily
apparant. If God was an all-seeing eye that was in front of our field of
vision no matter what, it would be VERY hard to momentarily forget about
Him. (Probably play havoc with our sex lives, too, save for those of us
who are exhibitionists.) Every kid knows what the rules are at school,
may even be aware that the principal could be watching when they're out
on
the playground from a window...but kids still get into fights on the
playground, fights they would NOT do right in front of the principal.
... "But, Your Honor, the light had dopplered to green."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: cult evaluation form
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:01:00
EID:ad65 206b0020
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A99ED8
JG> My religion is not of this world.
JH> You're a Martian?
AS> See, I TOLD you my Church has a good missionary program....
AS> (Sure hated it when the missionary had Dejah Thoris get dressed,
AS> though...)
DC> I tried to warn you about that, but now you have to put up with
DC> that Puritan concept....
I have to admit, baptizing Tars Tarkas was a little unusual...
DC> I'm not sure, but I think I have a few John Carter comics.
DC> And, NO! I don't have any duplicates in that series!!!! :-)
That's okay. The original trilogy--Princess of Mars, Gods of Mars, Warlord
of Mars--I had in hardback--with drawings by the incomparable Frank
Frazetta. (In fact, now that I think about it, I believe I should still
have the second "group" of novels, because it was in a better Dover
paperback that I believed I put in with my hardbacks. Have to doublecheck
that.) Comic book adaptions of other media I don't care as much for
(although I did like Roy Thomas' Conan)...I just get the originals!
... Actually it's not replying that takes time, it's choosing a tagline.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: flood
|Date: 11 Mar 96 00:08:00
EID:5815 206b0100
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9A1DA
DC> Why do you think I created those movies and TV stars?
You created Bridgette Bardot in her prime? Ursula Andress? Julie Newmar?
Terri Hatcher? Hmmmm. Now THERE's a power...
AS> Besides, it would spoil my free will NOT to believe. You wouldn't
AS> want to do that, would you?
DC> Of course not. Besides, why would I create something and just
DC> decide to throw it in the dumpster?
Did you create Asmodeus?
AS> Sorry. Should have said, although that IS true.
DC> Kinda sounds like they believed and acted on their beliefs the
DC> same way that early xian martyrs did, downs't it?
The early Christian martyrs that hadn't known Jesus? Certainly. Or Joan
of
Arc. Or the Crusaders. But still, the apostles were a little different.
They died (or were flogged or imprisoned or whatnot) NOT for saying "Jesus
is Lord" (as one might say Dionysus is Lord or Mithra is Lord) but for
saying, "He was put to death, and He came back, and we all witnessed it!"
See Acts. That is exactly what Peter and his fellows claimed, and exactly
what got them into hot water with the Sanhedrin.
The kamikaze pilots didn't say, "Oh, I'm going to kill myself because I
saw the Emperor raise someone from the dead."
AS> Sure. But you can't see the Divine Wind within them, any more than we
AS> can tell, just by your typing, that you are a God Dan.
DC>
DC> Yes you can. Her, let me mkae a few tipos so that yo know that
DC> it's relly me.
It's either you or Goldberg, god of biology, chemistry, and typos.
AS> Oh, they do it all the time. They have to...they can't ALL be right.
DC> No, they can't. However, you have no basis to show that any belief
DC> is correct.
Welllll...individual belief I think, can be safely regarded as unable to
be proven one way or the other. But we do attach more importance to common
observation of phenomena (as opposed to states of mind) than we do to
individual ones. For instance, the repeated leaping off a building
resulting in a resounding SPLAT! tends to build a consensus in your mind.
An intimation that there is an external reality which is responsbible for
those repeated instances of things going splat when shoved off a building.
Whereas, if it was something that is just a state of mind, we do not argue
that, say, eight million germans believing in Hitler as the savior of the
German people actually MADE him the savior of the German people. Or ten
thousand people having red for a favorite color precludes the next person
from having green as a favorite color.
What the kamikaze pilots, Joan of Arc, Islamic jihads, etc. have in
common is an idea of God...a state of mind that they are willing to die
for. What the apostles had (or claimed they had--in common--and were
flogged by the Sanhedrin for)--was an actual phenomena. They believed in
the exact same sense that you believe that when someone falls off a
building they will shatter into a thousand pieces....because they have
observed the phenomena which they are claiming.
Now, the options are these:
They were misreported and never claimed that.
They were lying.
They were mad.
They were telling the truth.
You can mix and match them. Peter went mad and the rest lied for him,
for instance.
DC> However, at that time, xianity was the rule in Western Europe. The
DC> church would not stand for a myth created that sprouted another
DC> god.
Sure. If you think you are sane and talking to real people, you hate to
see someone become delusional and talk to someone who's not there. Which
is how the Christians felt about anyone who adopted another god...or how
the average nontheist Holysmoker feels about the theist.
AS> yet--despite all reason, all previous experience---a dozen followers
AS> suffered flogging, risked death, risked imprisonment---for saying they
DC> Note: Only the death of Stephen seems to have any backing outside
DC> of the bible.
And we only have the word of Aristophanes, in jest, that Socrates
lived...if you discount HIS followers (Plato) or his follower's followers
(Aristotle).
AS> DID observe such. That they personally saw a dead man walking around.
DC> Just which of the gospels are written by one of those "eyewitnesses"?
Gospel of John. I personally think the Matthew we see is a rewrite. Luke
never claimed to be, Mark supposedly got it second-hand from PEter.
... It's a miracle that curiosity survives formal education - Einstein
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK ON
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:09:00
EID:42cb 206b0920
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9A55E
JB>That's what Fantasia is for. Talk about pretty colors!!! whooo boy.
Heck, Fantasia was a high in and of itself, drugs or no. The "Rites of
Spring" mythology sequence, "Night on Bald Mountain", the one with the
fairies....wonderful stuff. There are a few clunkers, but still high on
my
list of favorite movies. When we were on our honeymoon in New York, we
were walking past a theater that was showing Fantasia. I said, "Have you
ever seen this?" She said, "No. Why..." Then I dragged her in there,
saying, "If you're my wife, you need to see this movie. Trust me, trust
me, trust me."
She was bored towards the beginning, but once it really got going...
JB> I missed Woodstock only because I was due to deliver any minute. I was
JB> willing to risk it but the other people going weren't. As the baby was
JB> stillborn, it's probably a good thing I didn't go.
Yes. Bathroom facilities were bad enough I heard. Getting a doctor there
would have been really hard...still...both you and I didn't go to one of
the epochal events of our generation. Ah, well...
... Cry, "bother!" and let slip the poohs of war.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: DEMONS... DEMONS...
|Date: 11 Mar 96 01:05:00
EID:474b 206b08a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9A82E
JB> Getting close, Al, getting close. Do you think maybe Win95 is Bill
JB> Gates' attempt to raise the intelligence level of the general
JB> computer using public?
No, it's flashing subliminal "buy Microsoft" messages to you on its GUI.
Personally, I'm holding off on Win95. The Win96 they are testing is
codenamed "Nashville". There are signs in the Heavens, and all that. I'm
a
Nashvillian, I might as well hold off and get the "Nashville" version.
At least for my home computer. My one at work is presently the old
Windows, but a compantion has Win95, so I am learning bit by bit...
... Let me know right away if you don't get this message.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: RE: AL SCHROEDER
|Date: 11 Mar 96 02:06:00
EID:f657 206b10c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9AB12
JJ> Captain Billy's Whiz-Bang is famous in another genre.
JJ> It was one of the first widely successful publications to
JJ> feature "cheesecake" photographs or pin-ups. T'was one of the
JJ> very first "men's magazines".
Hmmm. I know the writers and artists of Fawcett comics, which also
published Captain Billy's Whiz-Bang, made many spin-offs of Captain
Marvel...Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr., Uncle Marvel (based on W.C.
Fields, a fraud who had no powers), the three Lieutanents Marvel (don't
ask!> but there was one they did for their own enjoyment, that they never
published...Aunt Fannie Marvel, who wore the cape and the bucanneer boots
of the other Marvels...and nothing else. It was the forties' then.
Someone could probably bring her back these days in an adult comic and
make a mint.
... As confused as a baby in a topless bar!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR AND JUST GOD
|Date: 13 Mar 96 05:09:00
EID:52b8 206d2920
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9AE28
MB> I really don't know what that has to do with "do as I say and
MB> not as I do." Do you? Aren't you just a little off the
MB> beaten path?
The idea of Jesus becoming one of us to endure the limitations we
ourselves are under? I don't think so. You say God is unjust and a double
minded, hypocritical murderer. But when (in my view) God was incarnated
as a man, He went around preaching "turn the other cheek" and "he who is
without sin cast the first stone" and "forgive your enemy seventy times
seven". And yet Jesus was beaten, flogged, eventually executed. It is not
the mark of a hypocrite to endure what you say He is forcing on others.
MB> Utter nonsense! I don't make ethical boundaries for my children that
MB> I was unwilling to adhere to myself; your god did. Again and again.
MB> He was a petty tyrant who did't know right from wrong for thousands
MB> of years, yet condemened people to eternal torment for doing much
MB> less harm than he did. He's an asshole, and hardly anybody to be
MB> respected by anyone.
Hmmm. Do you draw, Marilyn? When you teach a child to draw, or for that
matter, ANY person, you start with having them draw real things. They
need to learn perspective, how things truly look, how they hang together,
some semblence of anatomy, to make it really hang together. Now, I am
fairly good at freehand drawing. And yet, many of the abstract
artists...Picasso, Mondrian, Klee, that crowd...drew pictures that look
like a five year old can do them. Deceptively so. Picasso could draw a
MUCH more realistic picture than I. He went through the apprenticeship of
learning how to draw realistically and well, and then learned to discard
it to follow a greater law of composition and artistic vision. It's not
that Picasso doesn't know enough to draw an artistic picture. It was
because he was a master and had gone beyond that.
But you still don't, even if the artist is to be an abstract painter,
initially teach someone to do abstract art. They must learn the
fundamentals of perspective, composition, etc. before they have the
freedom to follow their artistic integrity further. Similarly with
poetry. One is taught the metrical forms of poetry, and is criticized for
half-rhymes and breaks in the metre...but if you look at Shakespeare, you
see many examples of breaking such poetic rules and restrictions.
It is not that he didn't know poetry magnificently. He
knew when to dispense with the rules to make a greater artistic
statement.
In much the same way, God is a master. He MUST allow death to allow
life to prosper, at least under the present paradigm of nature. There may
even be times, given His viewpoint outside time, where some need to die
that more may live later on. As a policeman shoots a sniper to avoid him
from shooting more innocents. We have neither the wisdom or the
experience to dispense with such prohibitions as we have.
MB> As for my pacifism, I don't insist that mesquitoes adhere to my
MB> standards. I know they are mesquitoes and have their own way of
MB> life. And, I certainly don't lay down standards for them then
MB> in the next breath flaunt those standards in their face whilst
MB> punishing them for eternity for not adhering.
(Amused smile.) No, you just swat them.
No, you don't insist that mesquitoes adhere to your
standards for your ethical conduct. You DO insist that they adhere to
YOUR standards for THEIR conduct. In other words, if too many buzz you,
you will spray them, or use a bug-killer---you will KILL them, something
you would not do to something you considered an equal, no matter how
annoying. You have a different standard for their behavior than you do
for yours.
I don't think God considers us mosquitoes. But I don't think He
considers us equals, either. Beloved animals, perhaps, the way a game
keeper keeps wild animals in the preserve. (And you will notice sometimes
game wardens will thin the herds to allow greater health for the whole.
He will kill a few...even might allow others to hunt...to maintain the
health of the herd as a whole. And some of the herd might regard the game
warden as a monster, even though he loves them dearly, makes sure that
poachers don't decimate the population.
But he doesn't expect them to adhere to his ethical standards...he
doesn't expect predators to stop killing, or birds to act courageously,
or a fieldmouse to get an education and learn. But if the predators make
too many inroads into the birds, he will thin the population of the
predators, for the good of all, even ultimately for the good of the
predators.
MB> I would think even you could see that qualitative difference.
"Even" me?? I argue that ethical standards that God imposes on Man
need not be the same one He imposes on Himself. You argue that we don't
force our ethical standards on mosquitoes. You're very right. I agree
completely. Just like God does not put the ethical standards FOR HIMSELF
on us, but the ones that are meant for HUMANITY on us. As I have said
before...He did not say, "I shall not kill". He said "thou shall not
kill". For God not being able to dispense death would cause far more
misery in the long run, unless creation is made anew.
... The wrong way always seems the most reasonable course.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: A FAIR & JUST GOD
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:04:00
EID:f65a 206c1080
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9B1FC
MB> This is one of the utter hypocracies I see in the Judeo-Christian
MB> ethic that tell me they are way, way off base.
Hmmm??? I was asking you if there were any points where your pacifism
ends...like stopping Hitler's Germany, or a policeman stopping a sniper
from
killing others.
There are certainly Christian pacifists (just as there are who feel
themselves to be Christain soldiers--whether Jesus would approve of them
or not as a debatable point).
I'd still be interested in your answer.
MB> This is one of the things I find most distasteful about the Christian
MB> point of view. You people so readily equate adult human beings with
MB> flies on the wall, amoeba, virii, chimps, and the like, yet rail
MB>against the notion that we are RISEN primates. Another very fundamental
MB> inconsistency in the who paradigm. And, one I find VERY insulting.
MB> I am much more than an amoeba, and if your god can't see that, he
MB> needs radial kerototomy very badly.
Well, Marilyn, if a Christian had said what you say above, he would be
acccused of pride and hubris, of thinking he is the "crown of creation".
Now...Marilyn...I am as much larger than a germ as the Earth is larger
than I. But I am speaking of one who I think is omnipresent, so encompsses
the entire circuit of the Earth, and the solar system, the Milky WAy, the
entire observable universe. Even if He went no further than what little
we
know, an electron to you would be an overstatement of the relative "size"
of you to God.
Of course size doesn't mean anything. An elephant is not of more worth
than a man. Age? But then, God, must be, at a minimum, seven to ten
billion years old, perhaps as old as twenty billion, depending on when we
perceive the Big Bang as taking place. We have been recognizably men
for...what? a million years? One ten thousandth of that time? We have had
a history for seven thousand years, tops, one millionth of that time.
But of course age doesn't mean superiority, or else we would worship
redwood trees. Intelligence? Yet many computers add, subtract, visuallize,
memorize, et al better than I can. Do we grant Einstein more rights than
Forrest Gump? No.
I am REALLY curious here, Marilyn. I concede we are risen primates
(which doesn't rule out us being Fallen in another sense). But by what
standard are you much more than an amoeba? Is it your intelligence, your
size, your ability to manipulate the enviorment? What is the difference
of
man...and what difference does it make?
MB> We aren't talking about physical and mental capabilities, here,
MB> we're talking about ethical principles that are either right or,
MB> in this case, reprehensible.
I submit that you still equate God with humanity. That you follow a double
standard in how you treat germs and how you treat human beings.
That you will kill, quite cheerfully, beings, violating ethical standards
that are either right or, in this case, reprehensible.
And unless you can give us an OBJECTIVE standard that makes you
different from a germ from the viewpoint of an infinite Being...good luck.
Or even from our viewpoint. Good luck.
MB> I don't insist fish adhere to human ethics, but your god insists I
MB> adhere to HIS ethics, even when he doesn't. In the case of the fish,
I
MB> sort of live and let live; your god is not nearly so kind, nor is
MB> he half as consistent. He believes in live and let live, until
MB> such time as a person does so, then he believes in making sure
MB> they die because they didn't get it right.
MB> Your analogy is a mess, and hardly parallel.
But you do insist that fish adhere to human standards FOR FISH. If a shark
is a danger to a population, he is killed without a "trial". I had tuna
for lunch yesterday, which were killed simply to satisfy my hunger, but
people who eat tuna are not regarded as cannibals or reprehensible like
Jeff Dahlmer is. Similarly, some fish are preserved against predators and
extinction in aquariums, but they have no choice in the matter. They are
imprisoned against their will, and some quite clearly would rather escape.
Some fish...catfish, trout---are bred in "farms". Any sort of human
breeding farms would be roundly criticized. And yet, if one sort of fish
is a danger to another species to the point of extinction, fishing
licenses can be issued to stop the offending fish from growing to levels
that hurt the other animal, and the other animal can become a "protected"
species.
I'm still waiting for the standards that make you, from the viewpoint of
one who created galaxies, superclusters, the Great Wall in astronomy, so
much more than virii, germs, fish, chimps, etc. I know of one, but it is
somewhat dependent on my views on what makes man special. I have a
theistic reason and a non-theistic reason. I am curious if you have the
latter, or whether you are just assuming a priori humans are superior.
I personally think your standards are more emotional and aesthetic than
rational, but I would be delighted for you to prove me wrong.
I would be fascinated to know by what standards humans are worth more in
the viewpoint of--well, the objective universe, if you want to dispense
with a God's eye view...than the above mentioned entities?
... Don't ask me. The cats are in charge around here.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 11 Mar 96 03:01:00
EID:6a7f 206b1820
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9B602
MB> You're missing the obvious. We all experience death, regardless
MB> of the clime in which we live. I would imagine equatorial peoples
MB> experienced even more death than we do, since the equator/jungle
MB> is a very harsh environment in which to live.
But that doesn't explain the corn-king myth...the dying and RESURRECTED
god. It would justify a faith like the Norse, where eventually Odin,
Thor, etc. would die, once and forever, never to return (although even
there, the dead Balder returns to help lead what few gods remain after
Ragnarok.) Men have needed, perhaps to survive after death, due to fear
of
death...although many live (in this echo alone) quite comfortably with
the idea that when they die their existence and consciousness with
extinguish, like a flame going out. But why make up a GOD who dies and
then lives again? Yet we see the pattern time after time. In some ways
it is echoed in the seasons, but in other climes, that show little
regional variation, we find it too.
Of course, if there is a "nature" BEYOND nature---an interface in which
both Nature and our consciousness arrives from (as different books by the
same author might be totally different and only connected by their
creator...then we might see a pattern that has no obvious connection but
would be a pattern nevertheless.
... Let me know right away if you don't get this message.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: COINCIDENCE SEVEN
|Date: 11 Mar 96 04:00:00
EID:8bb1 206b2000
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9B9FE
MB> I don't usually respond to taglines, but I can't resist.
MB> Several years ago, the Skeptics held their annual conference in
MB> Seattle, Washington. Carl Sagan was the keynote speaker. In his
MB> speech he said how silly it was to suppose that a people swift
MB> enough to harnass the necessary energy to visit us here on Earth
MB> would be simple enough to amuse themselves by making circles in a
MB> wheat field. The very next day in the Portland OR paper there was
MB> an account of crop circles appearing mysteriously just west of
MB> town, here, outside a suburb called Hillsboro. The coicidence of
MB> the two events struck me as particularly amusing -- almost as if
MB> the aliens were thumbing their nose at Carl, even as he spoke. A
MB> novelist couldn't have done better than that little vignette.
Was there enough time for it to be in RESPONSE to his comments, by some
prankster?
But of course, WE know the real reason. Those circles are religious
symbols, as Christians make crosses. That's where the aliens held their
prayer revivals!
And their "pope" is going to rule soon whether human beings have souls
to be saved or not. If they decide we do, LOOK OUT!!! The missionaries
will come and show us the wonder and glory of C'Don, the Creator, whether
we want to or not.
... Unicorns and Dragons aren't mythical. Virgins are.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:09:00
EID:1806 206c1120
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9BE54
MB> Small correct here. (I think I've made this subtle point before,
MB> but I'll try again.)
MB> The GOSPELLERS CLAIMED the disciples claimed. WE really don't have
MB> anywhere near enough information to say for a certainty that ANY
MB> of the Gospels were written by those whose names they bear. In
MB> fact, it's almost a certainty that none of them were. To begin
MB> with, there is nothing in the gospels themselves to indicate that
MB> any of the disciples were well-educated enough to write that much
MB> or that well. Outside of Luke, who was a physician, nearly all the
MB> disciples were very ordinary men who held menial jobs, such as
MB> fishermen. There is no reason to believe a fisherman, in that
MB> culture, would be able to write well enough to have written what
MB> is now known as the "gospels." Even in our time, with our
MB> percentage of literacy, there are few common laborers who could
MB> write well enough to turn out something that is written as well.
MB> Eric Hoffer is an exception, not the rule, and he is one out of
MB> literally millions, not four out of a handful that were among the
MB> chosen at that time in that place.
Well, for instance, Peter as much as admits he has someone transcribes
his letters, which is what you would expect from a relatively unlettered
man. (Although Jewish children are taught how to read enough to read the
Torah at the synogogue.) Mark was supposed to be his TRANSLATOR,
according to Acts, so presumably was lettered. Matthew I think is a
translation, but he was a tax collector, so had to have some mathematical
learning AND be able to write at the very least, to the local
authorities, do accounting, etc. Luke as you mention was a physician.
John, judging by one gospel, may have been a follower of John the Baptist
before Jesus, and there are hints that he may have been influenced by
Essene teachings more than the others, perhaps even was an Essene "monk"
for a while. And of course, all the Christian traditions agree that John
was the LAST Gospel written, which would have given him enough
time...decades--to learn how to write better. We cannot cavaliarly assume
that all of them were near-illiterate...although your argument DOES
answer, quite neatly, why there are not more firsthand accounts from the
apostles themselves. Thanks, Marilyn! Of course, of the other NT
authors, Paul is obviously fairly cultured, and is the only NT writer to
quote from pagan literature, which fits into his status as a "Roman
citizen" as well as being taught under Gamaliel.
None of them are great. Luke's pretty good, but experts assure us that
the other's styles are only fair to middling. Mark's Greek is especially
rough-hewn.
MB> The Gospels are clearly somebody's attempt to record the various
MB> "schools" of Christian thought. Although two of them are believed
MB> to be derivative of a third gospel, there are clear deparetures in
MB> them that would indicate to a disinterested observer that they are
MB> nothing more than somebody's record of the theology of a
MB> particular sect at a particular moment in time --a time that was
MB> fairly distantly removed from the events themselves.
OR a story told by different viewpoints, ammassed by different authors,
with admittedly different frames of reference--one was writing to pagans,
one was writing to Jews, etc. And remember MArk and Luke don't make any
claim to be firsthand witnesses. John does, at least. Matthew doesn't say
one way or the other.
MB> In all probability, that is why there are significant differences
MB> in the written record of who discovered the empty tombm for
MB> example: each sect was making an attempt to in some way claim that
MB> it had a record dating back to that event, and therefore wrote the
MB> narrative in such a way as to put one of their antecedents at that
MB> event.
Could be. Yet though there are definitely different viewpoints, the
Gospel of John, for instance, in the catty way "the disciple Jesus loved
best" dogs Peter's steps and sometimes takes precedent, strikes me more
as a biased viewpoint of a personal narrative.
MB> When writers tell of what happened to another person, they are
MB> going by what they've been told, filtered through their own
MB> biases. They are also, in this case, being given absolute trust as
MB> to their absolute accuracy by believers. The main difference
MB> between a believer and a nonbeliever, in this case, is the
MB> willingness to give such absolute trust of absolute accuracy to
MB> somebody who is telling a story that has so many elements that
MB> are, in the experience of the listener, totally impossible. So
The Hume-idity of the room just rose. As in David Hume. Are you so
SURE it's impossible? Miracles are by their very nature extraneous to the
usual run of Nature. You have settled the question without considering
it.
MB> long as those elements are in there, ALL the events described can
MB> logically be assumed to have been embellished. Their surreal
MB> quality alone makes such assumptions intellectually honest to the
MB> critical eye, and intellectually dishonest in the eyes of the
MB> nonbeliever when an attempt is made to take them at face value.
You only have to assume everybody involved reacted in a way you would
accept for NO OTHER EXPLANATION. If you were told that Charles Manson was
framed and that everyone involved, including the members of his gang and
the victims, had ALL gotten it wrong, you would laugh in the person's
face relating it, unless he had some powerful piece of evidence to the
contrary.
"The ordinary procedure of the modern historian, even if he admits the
possibility of miracles, is to admit no particular instance of it until
every possiblity of 'natural' explanation has been tried and failed. That
is, he will accept the most improbable 'natural' explanations, rather
than say a miracle occured. Collective hallucinations, hypnotism of
unconsenting spectators, widespread instantaneous conspiracy in lying by
people not otherwise known to be liars and not likely to gain by the
lie--all these are known to very improbable events; so improbable that,
except for the special purpose of excluding a miracle, they are never
suggested. But they are preferred to the admission of a miracle.
"Such a procedure is, from the purely historical point of view, sheer
midsummer madness UNLESS we start by knowing that any miracles whatever
is more improbable than the most improbable natural event. Do we know
this?"--C.S. Lewis, MIRACLES, chapter XIII, "On Probability", where he
tackles Hume.
Think on it. Don't answer by reflex, "Of COURSE it is!" What is your
basis for saying that? Another paragraph out of the same chapter.
"Now of course we must agree with Hume that if there is absolutely
'uniform experience' against miracles, if in other words they have never
happened, why then they never have. Unfortunately we know the experience
against them to be uniform only if we know that all the reports of them
are false. And we can know all the reports to be false only if we know
already that miracles have never occured. In fact we are arguing in a
circle."
MB> Resurrections definitely fall into the category of events that it
MB> would be intellectually dishonest for one to take at face value,
Why?
One more quote, same chapter.
"(Hume's) ESSAY ON MIRACLES is quite inconsistent with the more
radical, and honourable, scepticism of his main work.
"The question 'Do miracles occur?' and the question, 'Is the course of
nature absolutely uniform?' are the same question asked in two different
ways. Hume, by slieght of hand, treats them as two different questions.
He first answers 'Yes,' to the question whether Nature is absolutely
uniform, and then uses this 'Yes' as a ground for answering 'No,' to the
question, 'Do miracles occur?' The single real question which he set out
to answer is never discussed at all. He gets the answer to one form of
the question by assuming the answer to another form of the same question.
"Probabilities of the kind that Hume is concerned with hold inside the
framework of an assumed Uniformity of Nature, When the question of
miracles is raised we are asking about the validity and perfection of the
frame itself. No study of probabilities within a given frame can ever
tell us how probable it is that the frame itself can be violated. Granted
a school time-table with French on Tuesday morning at ten o'clock, it is
really probable that Jones, who always skimps his French preperation,
will be in trouble next Tuesday, and that he was in trouble on any
previous Tuesday. But what does this tell us about the probability of the
time-table's being altered? To find that out you must eavesdrop in the
master's common-room. It is no use studying the time-table."
You are assuming a uniformity of Nature that is the entire question,
not the answer. The fact that it is a unique event is what you would
EXPECT of an exception to the usual run of nature. (At that, there are
more reports of some kinds of supernatural events, like ghosts, than
there are of novas occuring, for instance.) The universe itself, as far
as we can determine, is a unique occurance. The formation of a biosphere
AS FAR AS WE CAN PROVE (i.e., we know of no other biospheres) has only
happened once. So the uniqueness of the Resurrection is neither an
argument for or against, nor is the fact that no other instances can be
adduced any proof, for the same applies to the universe as a whole and
our particular biosphere.
MB> regardless of what committee placed them in what book and declared
MB> its content to be the "word of god." Committees do all sorts of
MB> strange things. Wasn't it a committee that let OJ walk?
MB> So another committee let Jesus walk after the crucifixtion. I'm
MB> equally impressed with both decisions.
And the reason you are NOT impressed is the PREPONDERANCE of witnesses
and circumstances, that lead you to believe that OJ did indeed kill
Nicole (I am assuming from your words). That OJ's account DOES NOT MAKE
SENSE. Funny. That's the way I feel about the alternative explanations
for the Resurrection...that they are leakier than a termite-ridden raft.
... You may now log into life. Password:
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Annette Spence
|Sub: RE: LEGEND
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:05:00
EID:47f5 206c08a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9C188
AS> I like that idea. I am planning on doing a bible study in our church
AS> soon but I don't think I am ready for Bonhoeffer. Our last one used
AS> Josh Mcdowell and I spent a LOT of time studying for that one.
I can believe it. Josh is like a compendium of Christian
apologetics...many different sources gathered together some good, some
not so good. I have more respect of EVIDENCE than I have for MORE
EVIDENCE, which struck me as pretty weak, but even so, I prefer the
sources he is using, like Lewis. I can see a couple of places where he
was sloppy or put it in such a way that it is misleading. Probably the
best defense of the Resurrection is WHO MOVED THE STONE? by...Montgomery,
I believe (I had a recent fire). Lucid, well written, quite logical, one
might almost say remorselessly logical, in showing how absurd alternative
explanations of the Resurrection are. Both me and Michael have used his
arguments many times on this echo, and it is one of the books we have in
common.
AS> studying history and theology is new to me...I have never studied
AS> for my own benefit before. It was always for a class at college or
AS> church. I am just starting to put together answers beyond the
AS> emotional reasons for why I believe. So I am finding it a little
AS>overwhelming. I want to have it all put together *now*. It
AS> just does not work that way.
I find C.S. Lewis instructive. I'm rereading his MIRACLES, and I like his
MERE CHRISTIANITY. And G.K. Chesterton's ORTHODOXY is also quite good and
quite well written.
... Ask every question. Question every answer.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Fred Rice
|Sub: YOUR DAILY MURDER
|Date: 11 Mar 96 05:05:00
EID:f1b9 206b28a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9C516
AS> (small voice) What?
AS> Uh...Jim...perhaps you haven't thought this through. Someone
AS> dies in World War II, say, a pilot who has a wife and kids.
AS> Are you REALLY saying we should go out and kill his widow
AS> and kids?
FR>I was expecting you to suggest he was a troll. This one seriously seems
FR>to believe that the slaughter, kidnap and rape described in the
FR>Christanic mythologies was a good idea.
He later said he said it "tongue in cheek".
His idea of humor and mine differ CONSIDERABLY.
... You can fool too many people too much of the time. --James Thurber
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: My Web Page
|Sub: Fred Rice
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:02:00
EID:9355 206c0840
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9C8A4
AS> Well, it's not much, but the URL for my web page is...
AS> http://www.nashville.com/~Al.Schroeder/index.html
FR> Cool! I'magonna check it out!
I'm still a relative neophyte, but I'm learning fast. My wife (who has
had one for months) got contacted by a publicist for the TV show she is
a fan of, and was asked to create a web page for one of the stars of it.
She did it, gratis, because she's planning to meet with many of the
stars this April at a convention and wants to score points.
And I was just informed this evening that she's been contacted by our
Internet provider and that she may have to pay higher rates...there's a
limit of 200 "hits" a day on personal web pages, which are part of the
general service. Barb is getting when you count ALL the pages she has
created, 1500 "hits" a day. They want her to pay the higher rates for a
commercial page. We might do it. They still have the most reasonable deal
here in Nashville, and she would hate to move all her stuff around. We
have several weeks to decide, though, so we might shop around. (She's
also contacted the publicist, wondering if she and the star would be
interested in paying for the web page FOR her, which would be a nominal
fee for them which they are getting a lot of publicity for...as a
suggestion, not a request.)
But I've added some new stuff--a list of the anthropic "coincidences"
in html format, so anyone can look at them. I'm trying to be nontheistic
on this part, and maybe will later do a link to George Ellis' more
theistic (yet still scientific) interpretations of possible explanations
for such coincidences. But that's in the future.
... Hell hath no fury like an unjustified assumption.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FLOOD
|Date: 12 Mar 96 09:05:00
EID:5815 206c48a0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9CC82
DC> The salient point, Al: "Claimed". After all, all of the apostles
DC> ran away before the death. None of them where there to observe
DC> the resurretion. In fact, there was no one there that saw it.
But that's really a non-point, Dan. That's like saying because you didn't
see someone arrive at customs when entering the country, though you saw
them plenty of OTHER times, you didn't believe he was in America.
From C.S. Lewis' MIRACLES, "It is very important to be clear about what
these people meant. When modern writers talk of the Resurrection they
usually mean one particular moment--the discovery of the Empty Tomb and
the appearance of Jesus a few yards away from it. The story of that moment
is what Christian apologists try to support and skeptics chiefly try to
impugn. But this almost exclusive concentration on the first five minutes
of so would have astonished the earliest Christian teachers. In claiming
to have seen the Resurrection they were not necessarily claiming to have
seen THAT. Some of them had, some of them had not. It had no more
importance than any of the other appearances of the risen Jesus--apart
from the poetic and dramatic importance which the beginings of things must
always have. What they were claiming was that they had all, at one time
or
another, met Jesus in the six or seven weeks that followed His death."
If you're saying there should have been witnesses to his ACTUAL
Resurrection--again, if it were a made up story, they WOULD have, despite
the unlikeliness of someone volunterring to be sealed in a cave with a
corpse for days. They would have had at least one disciple who believed
more than others, and had eyewitness testimony. (And it would have been
the disciples who heroically stuck around and buried Jesus, not run like
scared rabbits.)
If you are implying that it was an elaborate stage illusion, all I can
say is, to do it from a cross, naked, and having your hands and feet
pierced as well as your side...David Copperfield would be envious indeed.
... Believe what is, not what you think.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 12 Mar 96 09:03:00
EID:0eae 206c4860
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9D1B4
AS> I will agree with you that myth probably predates formal religion.
AS> But the hunger for that myth...the myth of a dying and then reborn
god,
AS> which occurs in so many cultures...is it JUST a metaphor for the changing
AS> of the seasons? And if so, why does it occur in cultures along the
AS> equator, where the seasons are basically rainy and dry? It seems even
AS> deeper, almost an instinct with us. And I think it at least worth
AS> considering that it might be an instinct for something we NEED.
RB> You may be right. But I think that 'instinct' has to do with
RB> survival and not eternity.
But many here--I presume you yourself---get along perfectly fine without
a
belief in an afterlife. The Sadduccees (i.e., Caiphas, etc.) in the Bible
themselves, despite being the High Priest of the Jewish religion,
dispensed with same. If the fear of not surviving is so all-prevasive, why
do so many people accept it with equanimity? Why did no society develop
without such an "abberation"?
... ** We are most revealed by what we do not scrutinize. **
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Giggle
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:08:00
EID:3ff1 206c0900
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9D77C
AS> Yes, that's what you said at the time, when I had the usual male
AS> reaction to being greeted by a nude female....
MM> Uh..... of course, that was you???? I forgot to ask, does that come
MM> in adult size?
Ouch! Well, the male ego takes a deflating again...but at least that gives
me another line to add to my "is it in?" file...
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: HEY, I'M NEW
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:03:00
EID:953e 206c0060
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9DC90
DC> Which is why I did that. Though Al may actually be praying for
DC> me on his own time, he doesn't sign off on his messages in the
DC> smarmy manner as Grigor-mortis.
And WON'T sign off that way, either. It's hypocritical, when he says
things that are hateful and/or hurtful about or to people, to always sign
off in that way.
No, I haven't prayed for you, BTW, Dan. I didn't know of any especial
need in your life, and the only times I have been really tempted for the
Holy Smoke people was Gwenny and her assorted troubles, Judith when her
husband lost the job, Quentin when he was saying he would commit suicide
by age thirty if not laid...real needs. Prayer is a kind of private thing,
and many here have said they wouldn't want to be prayed for, either. So
don't worry, most of you. I never actually did it in Quentin's case,
Gwenny only after she gave permission...I'll admit to one for Judith when
she was having the problems. Most of you wouldn't want it, and I respect
that, although personally I would have no problems with those of another
faith (Wiccan, whatever) including me when they approach the Infinite. If
they are wrong about who they approach, it will do no harm, if they are
right, I will be to the better, and on the unlikely chance they are really
contacting something we would call a "demon"--well, I have faith in One
much greater than any demon.
There are enough people with real needs around. It's not like I need to
go out and actively search for people to pray for, though I respect you,
Dan, and wish you well. You would consider it rank superstition, even if
well meant, and I only do it for those I feel have real needs.
But I know why YOU don't pray. You're a god, right? "I wish I could pray
for you," said Zeus in a mid-sixties comic book,"but there are NONE to
hear the prayers of a god."
... So far back in the hills, even the Episcopalians handle snakes.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Hitler
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:06:00
EID:33ff 206c00c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9DF9C
AS> To say nothing of the fact that he killed himself. Anyone who
AS> knows Catholic doctrine knows that the surest way of earning a
AS> ticket to hell is to kill oneself...it's an unforgivable sin.
JH> I thought we had been over this before...
JH>
JH> It may be an un-absolvable sin in that it can't be confessed after
JH> the fact, but I'm not so sure it gets you anything worse than
JH> big time in Purgatory.
But they used to remove suicides from Catholic graveyards. Maybe it was
never official Church policy, but it certainly was a long-standing belief.
JH> I need to get a copy of the new Catechism (Catechism95), but
JH> I'm pretty sure that NO act is labeled as a sure trip to Hell.
JH> While the Catholic Church does assume a number of powers that
JH> Protestants insist are the exclusive priveledge of the Divine,
JH> I think they let God make the judgement of whether a person
JH> goes to Hell or not.
But without confession, there can be no forgiveness, in Catholic eyes.
So...
Perhaps they have changed. But I'm pretty sure it used to be, at the
very least, a widespread belief. From my ANNOTATED INNOCENCE OF FATHER
BROWN edited my Martin Gardner, G.K. Chesterton has Father Brown confront
a murderer in "The Hammer of God" on a tall church parapet.
"(The murderer, who Father Brown had just told how the murder was
committed) threw one leg over the parapet, and Father Brown had him in a
minute by the collar.
"'Not by that door,' he said quite gently: 'that door leads to Hell.'"
In other words, he kept the murderer from committing suicide lest the
murderer go to Hell.
Or in another Father Brown story, "The Secret Garden," the murderer
kills himself at the end. (I'm putting "the murderer" so as not to give
away the identity of same.) "A touch and a glance showed him that there
was a small box of pills at (the murderer's) elbow, and that (the
murderer) was dead in his chair; and on the blind face of the suicide was
more than the pride of Cato." Cato, of course, stabbed himself and
committed suicide after being defeated by Caesar, but the pride greater
than Cato's, Martin Gardner thought, was that of Satan.
... I plan to live forever, or die trying.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: in His own image
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:00:00
EID:be73 206c0000
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9E280
DC> Probably changes BBS's as often, just to keep the "seen by" list
DC> harder to track.
Probably all of a pattern. Belial, Abaddon, etc...
AS> "Who was that masked moron?" "That, my son, was
AS> the Lone Curser." As he rides into the sunset yelling, "Hi yo, Levay,
AS> AWAYYY!!!"
DC> Maybe it's time to make a silver bullet and give it too him. However,
DC> silver iodide crystals in a 12 guage would be maybe less harmful...
And more fun.
AS> Makes it harder for people to sue him.
DC> We could always track down his parents and show them what their
DC> 12 yr old son/daughter is up to!
Heck, _I_ probably more about "real" demonology than he does. I doubt if
he
ever cracked the cover of the Lesser Key of Solomon, for instance.
... Welcome to Hell! Here's your copy of Windows.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Mark Staal
|Sub: Re: Jim Staal
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:03:00
EID:5fbd 206c0060
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9E5FA
AS> Big brood. I'm sure he is missed by all.
MS> ..."Brood" is right, We all act like brothers and sisters right
MS> down to the fighting and bickering, but we do it in love....Not out
MS> of hatred or deceit.
And just a little bit of mischief, if you're like most families...
... Be bold in what you stand for and careful who you fall for.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:09:00
EID:7b25 206c0120
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9E97E
AS> KC> Take a deep fryer. Add a copious amount of your favourite brand
AS> KC> of cooking oil.
AS>
AS> KC> Now, take a can of chilled water and pour it directly onto the
AS>oil.
AS> KC> Enjoy!
AS>
AS> Blows up in your face, eh?
KDM> Not necessarily. Note that he said nothing about turning it on.
I've had enough fires lately, anyway.
... Don't tug on Superman's cape.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: LEGEND
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:02:00
EID:9561 206c0040
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9EC94
DC> cook. Turns out she didn't!
AS> VERY sneaky.
DC> In fact, she still can't cook!
DC> Now, deep fried mashed potatoes is real. Very tastey, I might add.
AS> Deep fried mashed potatoes? But...how...hmmm. Topping fried like
AS> baked alaska, maybe?
DC> Nope, a Baked Alaska *is* baked! There is a recipe for deep fried
DC> ice cream, but I've never made that, nor even sure if I have it..
DC> Had that in a restuarant one time. Rather good!
Don't they have that in Mexican restaurants?
DC> provide you with the secret that only God Dan and a Chef in
AS> You want me to beg? Hey, I'm not proud. HOW???
DC> As long as you asked so free-willfully! :)
DC> Use day old mashed potatoes. They have to be very stiff, though
DC> not dry. Add a bit of cheese, not too much, if you want.
DC> Any good melting cheese works. Just use it very sparingly.
DC> Form the mixture into 3/4 inch balls and refrigerate. I using
DC> let them sit in the freezer for an hour. (It works even if you
DC> plain freeze them for a day or so.)
DC> Next, make a medium to thick plain crepe batter. Use this to dip
DC> the potato balls in. Immediately deep fry until browned.
DC> Plain mashed potatoes work great! The cheese adds a bit of zest
DC> to the results. Even the plain ones have a "cheesy" texture
DC> to them.
DC> You'll know if you didn't coat the potato balls enough, as you
DC> will have a lot of deep fried granules of potato sitting at the
DC> bottom of your deep frier!
Saved to file. My wife sounded interested, too...
... Imagine the guy who ate the first oyster!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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PATH: 116/19 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: legend
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:09:00
EID:9561 206c0120
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9EF8C
AS> Well, really, Dan, to the disciples it makes no practical difference
AS> whether Jesus raised Himself or whether God did it for Him. Either
DC> It makes a very big difference in your mythology, Al. If he had
DC> to *be* raised, then Jesus was not the god that he's claimed
DC> to be. It's like he claimed he could perform open heart surgery
DC> and then brough in Christian Bernard.
Well, He brought in Christian, anyway...
I still think it is a rather fine theological point. According to the OT,
there were a few people raised from the dead, by prophets, at their
intercession with God. Similar with Jesus raising Lazarus. Whichever way
they understood what was going on, this shows an even greater mark of
God's favor. I personally believe, as did many of the disciples, that
Jesus WAS God, but either way it was a miracle.
... With friends like these, who needs hallucinations?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Many Gods and Godesses
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:04:00
EID:e05f 206c0080
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9F248
DC> My fingers are getting Thor of all this typing tonight. Besides,
DC> I'm running out of good gods to through back at you. I'll have
DC> to did out my Thor comics to get a few of the more obscure ones
DC> to mention.
DC> See ya Tiw's day...
I didn't mean to Tyr you out. A Ymir mortal can't keep up with all the
posting you have to do. Surtur-nly you can take some time off.
... No one can become depraved in a minute. It takes years of practice.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: OF "BATS" AND "BIRDS"
|Date: 12 Mar 96 00:03:00
EID:a630 206c0060
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9F50E
AS> Ahhh, it'll be struck down by the courts. They're just having their
AS> political cake and eating it to...voting for something that will
DC> It's things like that, among most everything else that they do,
DC> tha gives politics a bad name.
Yes. There has to be a better way. But every other way other than
democracy that's been tried has turned out worse, not better. Goverment
by
lot? Picking someone at random to rule? That's about the only untried
method left...
AS> Well, concerning the heliocentric theory, I doubt there's anyone in
AS> Tennessee, even in the smallest hamlets, except for the same
DC> That's a start, at least.
Yeah. Education in Tennessee as a whole isn't THAT bad.
AS> But I would ALSO say the majority take the Adam and Eve story
AS> literally. Some believe one thing on Sunday, the rest on other days
of
AS> the week.
DC> As has been pointed out, that's the scary part. Just how soon
DC> is it before they decide to enact their Sunday beliefs as the
DC> rule of the state/country, etc...
There's always that danger. More and more I see the wisdom of having
Supreme Court justices voted in once, and forever. They CAN'T lose their
office.
AS> especially in the East, where the Smoky Mountains start cutting off
AS> towns, can be pretty Deliverance-like.
DC> That is appalling, with all the ways of providing information to
DC> still have such areas to still exist in the backwaters of
DC> education.
Oh, it's not necessarily THAT bad...but I know there was a lady a few
years ago who was campaigning to remove tales of "witches" and "magic"
from kids' educational curriculum as "satanic" in a small town in
Tennessee. Barb wrote a letter to the local paper saying how STUPID that
was, cited things like C.S. Lewis' Narnia and Tolkien's Middle-Earth (both
earnest Christians) which had magic. She got letter of the year for that
letter from the Nashville Banner. They may be a little more forceful down
here...and yet they are still put down by most people.
AS> Vanderbilt football, who rarely win..."best SAT scores in the
AS> Southwestern Conference").
DC> Try my alma matter: On of the senior classes graduated and never
DC> saw their team tie, let alone win a single game! (Made Sports
DC> Illustrated, though some poor school beat that record since then.)
There was a guy at work whose moodswings used to go exactly with the way
Vanderbilt football's successes and failures went. As you may gather, his
nickname wasn't exactly "Happy".
... Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Kevin D. McKenzie
|Sub: Re: sharks
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:02:00
EID:07f9 206c0840
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9F7FC
AS>the minister didn't know he was gay) "Do you think God would prefer
AS>a man dead...or gay?" The minister answered without reservation,
AS> "Gay." He spent a long night that night, struggling with suicide,
KDM> Ah . . . typo?
First off:
ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To answer your question, yes. I blew the whole punch line of the story.
... "SHOOT HIM NOW! SHOOT HIM NOW!" -- Daffy Duck
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- TSX-BBS (Multi-line 32-bit BBS)
* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Sharks
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:03:00
EID:ca87 206c0860
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9FAF4
AS> the minister didn't know he was gay) "Do you think God would prefer
a
AS> man dead...or gay?"
AS> The minister answered without reservation, "Gay."
MB> You blew it. The minister answered, "Dead."
I did indeed.
Excuse me while I shoot myself in the OTHER foot...
... "Brillant, Watson. You are scintillating this morning."Sherlock Holmes
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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PATH: 116/19 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Al Schroeder
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Re: Sharks
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:09:00
EID:b260 206c0920
MSGID: 1:116/19 02A9FDC4
AS> and asked him, (he says the minister didn't know he was gay) "Do
AS> you think God would prefer a man dead...or gay?" The minister
AS> answered without reservation, "Gay." He spent a long night that
AS> night, struggling with suicide, and then came to the healthy
AS> conclusion that a dead man is of no use to anyone, even God. He
AS> left the church, tried some other stuff, and eventually drifted
AS> into Wicca and is quite happy with it. Considering what he
AS> endured, who can blame him? But I would rather be in my friend's
AS> shoes on the real Judgement Day than that minister's.
JH> This story would make a hell of a lot more sense if you had
JH> claimed that the minister wanted him dead instead of gay.
JH> As you typed it, it makes no sense at all.
I just wanted to see if you all were paying attention...
NOT!!!
I can't even make any excuses. No kids were bothering me at the time. I
reread it afterwards. It was such a familiar story to me, that I didn't
see that I had repeated "gay" when I should have typed "dead".
It's a good thing my friend doesn't read this conference, or I would
REALLY be in for razzing, for mistelling the turning point of his life.
Hmmm...what tastes good with crow?
... The Modem Devil Made Me Do it! Really!!!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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* Origin: The Nashville Exchange BBS 615-383-0727 (1:116/19)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Tennessee Commandments
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:01:00
EID:cf88 206c0820
MSGID: 1:116/19 02AA0094
PS> I am at the moment unsure of the status of the recent bill that went
PS> to the Tennessee Senate to make it a crime to teach evolution as a
PS> fact. If it passed, then the State Supreme Court should by all rights
PS> blow it to hell. That's a bald circumvention of the First Amendment
of
PS> the U. S. Constitution and also against the State Constitution. Sheesh.
DC> As I mentioned to Al, looks like it may be a newer version of
DC> _Inherit the Wind_ in the offing.
When it comes to State Legislatures, it's more like Inherit the Windbag.
... Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: THE CONSTELLATION
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:06:00
EID:7ee1 206c08c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02AA0422
AS> by Shirley Jackson, which was made into the movie, THE HAUNTING. I saw
AS> it when I was ten or so, and never forgot it. The ghost banging the
AS> walls and doors like he was going to batter them down. To my mind it
DC> Best part of the whole thing is the "lost art" of not showing
DC> anything. The movie _Species_ did a fairly good job on going
DC> back to that time of format. Yet, that movie did get far to
DC> graphic at the end and somewhat spoiled the effect...
Ever see CAT PEOPLE...the original, black and white version, rather than
the Natasia Kinski thing? You never saw the monsters. And it worked much
more effectively than that.
AS> held up much better than the EXORCIST, although I will admit my
AS> nine-year-old and wife watched it and if anything were bored.
DC> The Haunting or the Exorsist?
Oh, the Haunting. I don't think Brian's ever seen the Exorcist,certainly
not the uncut version. He's seen POLTERGIEST, though.
AS> ghost story in the English language. (I also like the ghost stories
of
AS> M.R. James.) As is my wont, even when I was thinking of the movie, I
DC> Not sure of that author... However, did you read the book, _Ghost_?
DC> The movie, based on it, was only a shadow of the book, and very
DC> faint at that.
Yeah, GHOST STORY by Straub (that was what you meant, right?) was written
after Straub went through a lot of the classic ghost stories and did a
homage to them. MAny of the plot devices are lifted from different stories
by M.R. James, Arthur MAchen, Oliver Onions.
A friend has borrowed my copy of THEY WALK AGAIN, but one story has that
absolutely haunting sense of elusive menace that is the best of ghost
stories. It's called "All Hollows"....don't recall the author, to the best
of my rememberance never read anything else by them...about a giant
rambling church, left from the Middle Ages called All Hollows, now only
kept by a caretaker, and that only by day. For, as the old caretaker
shows a visitor who stumbles upon the place, parts of the old, crumbling
stone church had been rebuilt, little by little...statues of angels that
had been looking adoring to Heaven now looked defiant and threatening
towards the sky....and they hear steps and hide, and try desperately not
to look at who...or what...passes by in a file, to do their own work with
what was once a house of God...
And there is another beauty in there called FATHER GIRDLESTONE'S TALE,
about a spiritual warfare for the soul of a young minister which is
absolutely riviting in a ghostly sense...
Absolutely first rate.
... If I can survive death, I can probably survive anything.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:06:00
EID:f0d9 206c08c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02AA072E
KC> I might be using it in an even more narrow sense, that being
KC> "evangelical". I generally use the moniker "fundie" to refer to
KC> "evangelical" anyways.
AS> Yes. I tend to call them "charistmatics" but I understand you now.
It
AS> is such a change to see someone use the word "fundamentalist" on Holy
AS> Smoke in the way _I_ would use it that I misjudged.
MB> I use it in much the same way you do. But I STILL regard Mikey
MB> as a fundy. Perhaps it's because I see a third component to
MB> the definition: an absolute sense of one's own rightness to
MB> the point where it is totally impossible for the bearer to say
MB> "I see your point."
Well, I have certainly seen Michael admit he was wrong on some things, but
that's between you and him. For that matter (and I am NOT thinking of you
here, Marilyn, although I must admit I have a few individuals on this very
echo in mind) in THAT sense of the word I know quite a few "fundies" on
this echo who don't believe in any dieties whatsoever.
It's of course a fine line to draw. On one side, if one says they
believe too strongly and without compromise, they are "fundies", and if
they bend too much, they are being "Salad bar Christians", "modern
apostates", or are "sucking up" to the nonbelievers.
Of course, the best way to proceed is not to worry about it. I've been
labelled a "fundi" by some, "a modern Protestant apostate" by others, and
worse words. No one makes me come here, and I can leave any time I want,
and I knew name-calling would happen no matter what happened. If anything,
I have gotten much LESS than my share, compared to other believers who
have ventured here. So I will continue to call them as I see them, having
a little fun as I go, but hopefully without rancor.
... Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: US Bans AbortionSpeak
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:08:00
EID:8be1 206c0900
MSGID: 1:116/19 02AA0AC6
AS> It's depressing. Ads use old Beatle songs to hawk their wares, thanks
AS> to Jackson's selling of the rights. John Lennon is probably royally
AS> P.O.ed, wherever he is.
NS>
NS> If he's anywhere, he's probably pissed off anyway. You know how he
NS> was about an afterlife of any kind.
True. But consider the alternative...
AS> I remember ONE person saying "right on!" seriously. Anybody else who
AS> did always giggled afterwards.
NS> I don't mind the right-ons. But I gag when I hear 'groovy' more
NS> than once a decade . . .
Wow. Psychedelic, man.
... Alzheimer's advantage #32: New friends every day.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: US Bans AbortionSpeak on
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:01:00
EID:700b 206c0820
MSGID: 1:116/19 02AA0F30
AS> And yeah, probably too much the nerd. (I remember I had to explain to
AS> each of my brother's friends what the ending to the movie 2001 meant,
DC> There are a lot of different versions to it. Wish they didn't
DC> bring out the sequells, as they weren't all that good.
I liked the diamond bigger than the Earth at the heart of Jupiter, but my
favorite Arthur C. Clarke books are THE CITY AND THE STARS and CHILDHOOD'S
END.
Also fodder for the fire. Back to the used bookstore....
AS> The Who, Emerson Lake and Palmer, the Moody Blues...etched in
AS> nostalgia with me forever.
DC> The first group was good, scratch the second, and give the
DC> last one a lot of credit!
I liked Yes, also.
AS> I'd go down to his stereo system for something to listen to. It made
a
AS> good reciprochal arrangement.
DC> Sounds just what my daughter and son do!
How old are they again?
... Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: WHO CARES?
|Date: 12 Mar 96 01:07:00
EID:00a3 206c08e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 02AA1200
AS> No, in a way it's liberating. NOBODY can measure up to Jesus'
AS> standards, and it is clearly told to us if we say we are without sin,
DC> As above: Goals only mean something if you do have a way of
DC> not only obtaining them, but surpassing them.
The goal is to surpass your old standard, getting closer and closer to the
end...but of course, the end is infinitely long away...
DC> Granted, some of them are no longer possible, do to various
DC> reasons, such as age, weight, height, money, an a myriad of
DC> other reasons. Those limits come into play at any of the possible
DC> levels for whatever reason(s). However, there are other things that
DC> can take the place of those goals, and have, as well as modifications
DC> to them.
Is it just me, or do other people feel like they've never decided what
they'll be when they grow up?
DC> I have matched or exceeded some of my goals. I have also failed
DC> to acheive some. I've either discarded a few. However, I continue
DC> to find new goals and challenges to meet, such as continuing to
DC> be the local grade school chess club teacher at chess! (It's
DC> tough, but I'm sneaky!)
Good short term goals. But short term goals can be applied to take you
further along the way to your long term goals.
DC> When anything becomes either too easy or impossible, it becomes
DC> boring. You get your challenges not by follwing the easy or
DC> unattainable path. All I can say is have fun out there and
DC> don't beat your head against a brick wall.
Oh, don't worry about it. If God is going to perfect us (which is the
idea, if not the reality) I suspect it will take much of eternity to do
it. In the interim, one can try to be better, which can be a short term
goal in itself.
... I love the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night...
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: Your Daily Murder
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:00:00
EID:243d 206c1000
MSGID: 1:116/19 02AA14BC
AS> Um. Although I do agree that God sometimes has to make His arguments
fit
AS> the stage the people were in, and yes, I do know that oftentimes whole
AS> villages and peoples were wiped out routinely in that time, a God who
AS> couldn't temper that with a little mercy, unless there was a good reason
AS> not to, quite frankly, is bending TOO much to accomodate the people.
Of
AS> course, God only told Moses to "avenge themselves on the Midianities",
as
AS> John Brawley rightly points out. It was MOSES who gave that order,
and to
AS> an extent, must bear some of the guilt.
AS> Now quite frankly, there MIGHT have been a reason for killing the
AS> non-virgin women. Reading prior to that infamous incident we find many
of
AS> the Israelite men were seduced by the Midianite women, both literally
and
AS> into worshipping Baal.
RB> Why was God no longer offended by atrocities and 'sinful'
RB> cultures after biblical times? By 'offended', I mean why
RB> no more orders or actions that wipe out an entire people?
RB> And why was God only offended by nations that pissed off
RB> the Hebrews? God seems very geographically and culturally
RB> limited in this regard.
A great many peoples were wiped out, over time. In a sense, God was behind
it all, as He is ultimately behind everything that happens, for good or
for evil. I think one can say God was probably ticked off at other
cultures, but without any others whom God chose to personally reveal
Himself to, we can't see it. G.K. Chesterton made the point that even
among pagan religions, some are better than others. The Carthaginians, who
sacrificed so many of their babes to a monster of a god like Molech, got
utterly devastated by the Romans, who worshipped the relatively more
benign Greco-Roman gods....certainly more HUMAN in essence than many of
the Pheonician-influenced gods. When the remains of Carthage got salted
and the Carthaginians were utterly destroyed, perhaps we see the approval
of a God who had to witness thousands of innocent children who were
sacrificed to a cruel, inhuman god that didn't exist. If God used a pagan
people to effect His will, well, that is certainly scriptural, just as He
had Israel broken up and dispersed for a time by using a ruler as His
pawn, and whom a prophet warned it would be useless to resist.
RB> Come on Al, it's obvious. Yahweh is a tribal god that made
RB> it to the Big Leagues. Some gods are mired in the minors
RB> forever but Ol' Jehosaphat only spent a few centuries in AAA
RB> before making the jump to The Show.
But of all gods to make it...the god of Israel, which always made
themselves seperate and unique and consequently small, suddenly acheiving
prominence worldwide? That's almost a miracle in and of itself.
... If it's obvious, it's obviously wrong.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: LET ME GUESS
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:01:00
EID:70aa 206c1020
MSGID: 1:116/19 02AA1778
MM> Close as any I guess. However, I am rather an eclectic version of
MM> whatever I am. I enjoy all mythology, investigate all religioius
MM> thought and sort of take what seems to work well for me. If it seems
MM> to be geared to overpowering the opposition I usually try to let it
MM> go. If it's more of a recognize we all are different, but not
MM> necessarily all wrong...hey, I like that! It is not that I don't
MM> believe in things that are poor choices existing, it's just that I
MM> at the world through a sort of fly's eye view... millions of slightly
MM> different views from variouis perspectives, none of them actually
MM> wrong. If a fly can function with that tpe of visual sense, I'm gonna
MM> try to have that view spiritually/culturally/socially. So far I'm
MM> pleased with the result.
It's a wonderful view in some ways...leads to no Holy Wars, no
judgementalism, etc. But by the same token, in the long run, I think it
can be damaging for a pursuit of truth. (Not that I think that of you,
just in general of cultures that had that as a majority view.) If one
thinks that any truth might be equally valid in the religious sphere, one
might go on to apply it to the scientific sphere. I don't think (and the
thought is not original with me) that it is a coincidence that the
scientific method arose out of Western culture, which combined the
Platonian passion for logic and philosophy with the exclusivist views
inherited from Judiac tradition...that there is one truth to be searched
for, and the rest are not. We are as much heirs of Abraham as Aristotle
in that view. The Greeks did not come up with scientific method, despite
their excellent logic and philosophy. Their worldview was too eclectic.
The Hebrews had the right worldview for that, but did not have the
philosophical tools. Only when there was a fusion between the two did
true science arise.
Still, one cannot deny there is much of beauty and wisdom in other
paths walked, and to appreciate that is the response of any thinking
human being. I am fairly literate in mytholgy, at least Greek and Norse,
and know others in passing.
... It's not the size of the wand, but the Magick in it!
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: BAHA'I
|Date: 12 Mar 96 02:06:00
EID:da15 206c10c0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0356930E
-=> Quoting Al Schroeder to Dan Ceppa <=-
AS> Ahhhh...where do you get off calling JESUS...a Jew...PETER...a
AS> Jew...John, the apostle...a Jew. David, Abraham, etc..."kikes, hebes,
JB> This was wonderful, Al. But in your zeal and indignation, you
JB> addressed it to DAN.
Hoo boy. My aim is as bad as Asmodeus'.
Never mind.
... I used to have a handle on life, then it broke.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: John Oliver
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:d06c 206c1800
MSGID: 1:116/19 0356A790
JO> Am I getting out? Actually, this is a test message to see if the FD
JO> mailer is making it out? Please respond, flames accepted!
FLAME ON!!!! (No, that's Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Four...{)
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Dave Oosterman
|Sub: JIM STAAL
|Date: 12 Mar 96 03:09:00
EID:88f1 206c1920
MSGID: 1:116/19 0356B578
AS> Feel free to address me as "Al Scroder" or something.
DO> :-)
Of course, it is better than my nickname (and my brother's) when we were
in high school, which was "scrotum"...
... Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking evolungelic
|Date: 12 Mar 96 03:08:00
EID:0776 206c1900
MSGID: 1:116/19 0356BC94
AS> So is some science. Luckily, science has a self-correcting faculty,
AS> peer review and experimental verification and duplication, that steers
AS> it back to the right path. The larger philosophy from which it sprang
AS> has no such.
AM> There are some area's science comments on, where the restraints you
AM> described are impossible to put into effect. Yet they still declare
it
AM> scientific fact!!
Or, at least, they declare some questions meaningless (i.e., free will vs.
determinism).
... Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Becke Jones
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 05:01:00
EID:e59e 206c2820
MSGID: 1:116/19 0356C414
AS> Yes. Especially the Pentecostal churches you attended when younger.
I
AS> have attended some charismatic churches. I myself currently attend
a
AS> Church of Christ (Campbellites) which many would call fundamentalist,
AS> although I would merely say religiously conservative in some areas.
BJ> I've always wondered what denomination you were...
Although I was brought up Episcopalian, so I'm really not a real typical
anything.
BJ> Being you are a member of the Church of Christ, perhaps you can answer
BJ> me a question. My family were members of the Church of Christ as I was
BJ> growing up, so for my formative years, I was mostly raised in that
BJ> denomination.
I see.
BJ> Needless to say, behind the scenes, my step-father was an alcoholic,
BJ> wife-beating, child-molesting son-of-a-bitch. My mother finally got
BJ> fed up enough with it to divorce him. When the news of the divorce hit
BJ> the congegration, they shunned myself, my sister, and my mother, but
BJ> allowed him to remain a member. Why is it that they allowed him to
BJ> remain (then knowing how he really was), but turned their back on my
BJ> mother when she needed the most support from the church?
Because they're idiots. (Well, I'm sorry, but that's the answer.) Yes,
many Churches of Christ take a rather archaic vision of divorce. They take
Jesus' words about that and use it to justify keeping together abusive
spouses and terrified victims, or people desperately unhappy with each
other. Churches of Christ are automonous, though, as you know. My wife's
down in Mississippi where she grew up is nearly that conservative. And I
would NOT go there regularly if I had any choice in it. However, the
church I am going to, for instance, the youth minister is divorced, and
no
one talks about removing him from his position within the church. I
suspect (and you know much better than I, so take this guess for what it
is) that as a male, he had more entry into the hierarchy of the church,
the elders and so on. He probably used some sort of justification for what
he did, or said your mother was lying about the abuse. And maybe the
elders believed him. Do I think it pretty indefensible, to ignore two
children and a woman when they are most in need of help? Yes, indeed. Now,
my church has and will keep on helping abused women. And does not
disfellowship people because they were smart enough to get out of a bad
relationship. One of the church secretaries is also divorced, and I know
several such members who are divorced. Of course it is not encouraged, but
my minister has stated many times, from the pulpit or Sunday School class,
that God doesn't want people to stay in relationships where people are
kept desperately unhappy, and if the congregation didn't like it, they
better get a new preacher. He's been there at least ten years now, so that
tells you something.
BJ> I realize you may not know the answer to this...and if you don't, I'd
BJ> like you to ask one of your church leaders. This case scenario is one
BJ> of the many reasons I turned away from Christianity in the first place.
I'm sorry to hear that, Becke, but it's not one I have to ask anybody.
People who took Christ's words about divorce so literally that they missed
the compassion He would have on those in abusive situations, and people
who felt a man's word is to be respected more than a woman's, ignoring the
"male and female, are all one in Christ" and "Men, cherish your wives as
your own bodies". Just out of curiosity, did your mother try to see the
elders, or the preacher? (And of course, I'm not sure I remember how old
you are. Remember how they wanted to make Mary Tyler Moore in the first
episode of the Mary Tyler Moore Show a divorcee, but decided to tame it
down to a woman who had broken up with a man...that the other was too
"controversial"? Attitudes towards divorced women have changed
dramatically in the last thirty years, and until the last decade, child
abuse was almost never mentioned prominently. Maybe they thought it was
so
horrific it couldn't be true.)
Human institutions are fallible and have always been so. And the Great
Things, like Religion and Science, have the potential for the most misuse,
on account of that very greatness. Just ask the Hiroshima chamber of
commerce, or the Torquemada Tour Guides.
I'm so sorry you had to endure that. If I knew of anyone at my church
who had been similarly mistreated by the elders or minister I would leave
in a shot, and pick another church, all the while helping the woman who
was abused. Claiming to be Christian is no guarentee of perfection or
infallibility, and I have certainly been in STRANGE churches before. I
have found one that suits my temperament, where the elders are relatively
intelligent and compassionate (three of them are college professors), and
whom I think sincerely tries to do good works and not to condemn anyone
unjustly. But I'm sure they have made mistakes too,and sometimes bad ones.
But I know they wouldn't have fallen into THAT particular trap. I have
seen them help too many others in similar situations.
I can certainly understand it turning you against Christianity, in the
same way the survivors of the Vietnam village Lt. Calley torched during
the Vietnam War would be anti-American. In MY experience it is not
typical, but it is not as rare as I would like it to be, either.
Again, my sincere apologies and condolences. (As if that made anything
better.)
... All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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|From: Al Schroeder
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: US BANS ABORTIONSPEAK
|Date: 12 Mar 96 05:07:00
EID:8be1 206c28e0
MSGID: 1:116/19 0356C9A0
NS> Ah...another dinosaur like myself. Sigh. Those were the days.
NS> Last night saw Dennis Miller, who said: When is Bill Clinton ever
NS> going to wise up and tell us the truth... "Yes. I inhaled, and
NS> then I drank the fuckin' bong water!"
AS> Too true. Tell the truth and shame Pat Buchanan. If he had just
AS> admitted it straight up, it probably wouldn't have been as big an
AS> issue.
NS> I agree totally. How odd that would seem, though. Imagine if it
NS> made his popularity in the polls go up, then all of them would have
NS> to follow suit or be left behind. All of the political candidates
NS> sorta forced to air all their dirty laundry in a burst of political
NS> one-upsmanship. It would be a hoot. But I don't think it'll
NS> happen. Someone would have to start the ball rolling, and nobody
NS> will.
Although these days I really know more about the candidates than I really
care to. JFK had the sexual morals of a mink, but was a good president.
And did it really matter, save to Jackie, as far as his presidential
performance was conerned, how many lovers he had? I know that it would be
better if he hadn't from a moral point of view, and I'm not justifying it,
but it still didn't lesser his performance as president one iota.
AS> Boy, I haven't heard of people talking about a 'bong' in years...I
AS> can remember the bong shop I used to go into to get underground
AS> comics like ZAP Comics and the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers....
NS> Young Lust Comix, Fat Freddie's Cat, Wonder WartHog, R. Crumb
NS> Comix, etc. Man, that takes me back . . .
And Captain Guts, Mr. Natural comix...gloriously crude and uncensored.
With this stupid communications decency act, we may be nostalgia for the
way the internet used to be, too...
AS> Do you remember Nehru jackets? Sometimes I think I'm the only one
AS> who does...
NS> I had a lime green nehru jacket back in either 1969 or 1970. Heh.
NS> Ah, the fashion atrocities we foist on the world: white guys with
NS> afros, platform shoes, polyester shirts, Angel french-cut slacks,
NS> etc. *>shudder<*
Ah, but at least blue jeans came into their own. And tie-dyed shirts still
are often seen.
AS> And no, you're not having a flashback, but obviously the sixties
AS> were better to me than I thought, or else it is creeping senility.
NS> . . . and the horrible thing is, you'll never know for sure, right?
NS> It's like the saying: the only nice thing about Altzheimers is that
NS> you get to meet a lot of new friends every day . . . };)
And explore a lot of new places, without going anywhere...
AS> It IS "my" generation.
NS> When I saw the post, I dug out my Stones cassettes and made my sons
NS> listen to the song, right after Jumping Jack Flash. They thought I
NS> was outta my head. Little twerps. Ah, once you get over the hill,
NS> you start gaining speed . . .
The funniest thing about that song was the line, "Hope I die before
I
get old" considering the longevity of the Stones and many of the other
performers of "my" generation.
AS> ... Nostalgia...all the good times you never had.
NS> True. History can certainly be subjective, can't it? };)
History?? Subjective?? NEVER!!! Unless Big Brother and the 1984 Ministry
of History decide to rewrite it, of course...
... I was not CREATING a disturbance, I was improving one already there.
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: ALL
|Sub: Thought you'd be interested
|Date: 14 Mar 96 13:14:10
EID:a4c8 206e69c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63ba7e49
===========================================================================
6. REQUESTING ADDITION TO BACKBONE.NA
===========================================================================
FREE_BIBLE
Topic: FREE BIBLE DISCUSSION AREA
Moderator: Ralph Stokes, 1:375/1611
Requested: 07 Feb 96
Expiry: 11 Mar 96
REC Requests: 17
.......................................
Maybe some of us need to pay Ralph a visit?
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: you bore me
|Date: 14 Mar 96 13:15:59
EID:2a6d 206e69e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63ba885d
REPLY: 1:116/19 0512BEA2
MG>> Why do you claim this? Where did it come from? If the
MG>> wource were legit, why would you not consider it scripture?
MG>>
AS> What, AGAIN??
Yes. I never asked nor heard of this before.
AS> Jerusalem Bible.
AS> "The manuscript tradition is the main objection. Many
AS> manuscripts, including Vaticanicus and Siniaticus, omit the
It mayb\ be that this is not part of the original manuscript. but I ask
youthe same thing that I asked Michael.....How long after the fqct does
it need to be written not to be part of the bible for you.
I'll concede that this may have not been the original author. There is
plenty in the bible for me to not believe without this. But do you not
think that the passage is kind of silly? After all, how could belief in
god save you from a sure acting poison?
How do dead men walk again?
How do virgins give birth?
How can the Earth be covered with water?
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Looking Foolish... (EVOLUTION)
|Date: 14 Mar 96 13:25:07
EID:fdac 206e6b20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63ba9cc5
REPLY: 1:121/45.0 3143d672
SA> However, I did not see any responses to questions asked of
SA> you months ago, and the message I initially responded to was
SA> the first one from you in a long time. Leaving with
SA> unanswered questions indicates some sort of disappearance,
SA> whether figurative or literal.
Billy is a coward and a fool. He first showed up here claiming that Carl
Sagan was a creationist. To wit....
BW> Okay where do you want me to start? How about with Carl
BW> Sagan? In his book Cosmos, he candidly admits "The fossil
BW> evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
BW> Designer."
HP> Carl goes on to say that it would have to be an idiotic "great
HP> designer" and that there's a better explanation -- natural
HP> selection -- that matches the facts better.
BW>Oh really?
Hec caught him lying and ever since, Billy has tried to squirm out of it.
He has nothing to contribute, as far as I am concered until he owns up tot
he fact that his initial post here was a lie.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C
|Date: 14 Mar 96 13:31:35
EID:53ff 206e6be0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63baa475
PS> I got your pic via e-mail recently. (Would have responded sooner,
PS> but the computer center got the bright idea of going down
PS> during spring break to clean up things and give everybody a
So, when are you going to make this available for public consumption? Just
encode it and post it here.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ed Dutkiewicz
|Sub: dinosaurs?
|Date: 14 Mar 96 13:55:20
EID:7c2c 206e6ee0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 63badf86
REPLY: 1:236/20.0 314430e6
ED> OOPS. You are correct that older organic material hass less
ED> carbon-14. I should have said that the burning of fossil
ED> fuels contribute to lower amount of C-14, which imitates a
ED> lower ratio of C(14) to carbon 12, which gives a false *old
ED> age* reading.
You're kidding here, right?
14C dating is done on samples that are cored from the earth or tht have
been embedded in rock strata. The very reason that this approach is used
is that hte 14C/12C ratio is undisturbed except that provided by radioactive
decay. The fact that fossil fuels are burned has nothing to do with carbon
dating.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:18:03
EID:e42d 2065aa40
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cf6cd
REPLY: 1:207/212 02841eb5
Saturday March 02 1996 08:36, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> That's your opinion not mine. MY opinion is if the Bible is wrong,
KM>> then there is no God. Period, end of line, no more story. When I die
I
KM>> will be dead dead dead. But while I lived, regardless of whether God
KM>> exist or not, I will have lived my life for something that I believed
KM>> in, right or wrong.
KD> My opinion is much more logical, having laid out the real possibilities.
KD> In fact there may be more.
Again, it's still your opinion. Logically, I cannot believe the Bible, and
believe there are other possiblities as well.
KD> And it doesn't bother me that there might not be anything after this
KD> life. I don't mind the idea of being "dead dead dead." It would be
KD> rather quiet, I'd think.
I don't think we will notice.
KD> Where I come from is the standpoint of someone who has actually sat
KD> there with the means of killing herself in her hands, deciding whether
KD> to use it. I am not afraid of death being "nothing."
Your not the only one that has had to make that choice.
KD>> If the Koran is wrong is there no Allah?
KM>> Do you really want to get into this conversation?
KD> Yes.
KD> If, in your opinion, the Bible being wrong indicates that there is no
KD> supreme being at all, does the Koran being wrong mean that there is
no
KD> supreme being? The fact that you can only see 2 options [god/no god]
KD> doesn't mean that is all that logically exists.
To someone that believes in the Koran, it probably does. I would doubt that
they would want to say, oh well if Allay does not exist, then God does.
I believe in the Bible, the Bible tells me there is only one God. I cannot
believe that there are other possibilities, and still believe the Bible.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:22:04
EID:88f5 2065aac0
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cf7e1
REPLY: 1:207/212 0213f4ed
Saturday March 02 1996 08:41, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> You believe it to be a mythology, I do not. And to be quite frank
KM>> about it, I don't understand why someone who believes it to be
KM>> mythology would spend so much time here debating it.
KD> Because there are too many who want that mythology foisted on me and
my
KD> [hypothetical, future] children as truth. I love mythology and folklore.
KD> I just put it in it's place.
You place the scriptures as mythology and folklore, I do not. From what
I understand this echo is suppose to be for religious discussion, not mythology.
BTW I am not trying to force the scriptures on you or your future children.
You keep talking, so I keep talking, all you have to do to stop me from
talking about the scriptures is not to talk back. You love mythology and
folklore, I don't think those terms fit the scriptures. We both have our
own opinions and we are entitled to them. You think I am foolish (my words
not yours) for believe them to be truth, I think you will end up in lake
of fire if you do not accept them as truth. But that's still our own opinions.....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:26:05
EID:d007 2065ab40
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cfa69
REPLY: 1:207/212 1723e429
Saturday March 02 1996 08:43, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Physically your alive, spiritually if you do not know Jesus Christ
as
KM>> your personnel saviour, you are dead. The people in Revelation 20 that
KM>> stand before God, did not all physically die, but the Bible calls them
KM>> all "dead".
KD> [Resisting opportunity to ask which company has hired Jesus as Human
KD> Resources manager]
God did.
KD> the point is, I don't see any evidence of this whatsoever. Not even
in
KD> the lives of those who have done so.
What would you expect of those that have done so?
KM>> I don't want laws against gays. Just because I do not think that thier
KM>> lifestyle is biblicly (sp?) correct, does not mean that they do not
KM>> have the right to live together. If I wanted laws against them, I
KM>> would logically have to want laws against people having sex with
KM>> anyone that was not thier spouse. Laws against drinking, smoking,
KM>> cussing, not going to church on Sunday, not teaching others about
KM>> Christ. BTW you are forgiven for all sins, and that includes the ten
KM>> commandments.
KD> Oh, so anyone who murders and is Christian is forgiven?
Is murder a sin?
KM>> Lust is more then just a sexual desire.
KD> Well it comes from the general German word meaning *any* kind of desire
KD> [Lust] but in English it only means sexual desire. We use the word
KD> desire for when we want other things intensely.
Not according to the dictionary.
1. sexual desire or appetite, esp. when uncontrolled or illicit.
2. a passionate or overmastering desire (usually fol. by for): a lust for
power
3. ardent enthusiasm; zest; relish
4. a pleasure or delight. b. desire; inclination; wish
5. to have strong sexual desire.
6. to have a passionate yearing or desire (often fol. by for or after)
Sorry, but according to the dictionary, it means more than just sexual desire.
KD>> Well, so do you every day. What are you wearing right now? Do you
KD>> observe the nitty gritty laws about relations with your wife as
KD>> relates her monthly cycle? Do you keep kosher? Do you sacrifice
KD>> things?
KM>> "Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to
KM>> till the ground from whece he was taken. So he drove out the man; and
KM>> he placed at the est of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming
KM>> sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."
KM>> Nope does not call it a punishment, however I can see your point. But
KM>> the punishment was having to leave Eden, having to live on the Earth.
KD> Then being in jail is not a punishment? It's just having to leave
KD> society.
Being in jail is man's punishment for crimes, not God's. They were not allowed
back into Eden, that was the punishment, not earth itself.
KD>> I've read them many times. All I find is a woman hating group of men
KD>> who wrote down their mythology.
KM>> But apparantly you've never understood them.
KD> No, I'm not capable of understanding mysogyny.
Your gonna have to help me out with the word mysogyny, it's not listed in
the dictionary. (Not being smart, just trying to find out what you mean)
KM>> Still your opinion, the Bible does not say that the earth was thier
KM>> punishment, it shows that they had to leave Eden for eating the fruit.
KM>> Not that they had to live on the earth for eating the fruit.
KD> What other option was given?
Not to eat the fruit....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:37:06
EID:d007 2065aca0
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cfa85
REPLY: 1:207/212 d02e0d5a
Saturday March 02 1996 13:53, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> So I have to say exactly what you want me to say? When you decide
KM>> to listen to what is said we can continue this conversation.
KD> And when you decide to speak to the point I'm getting at, I'll be glad
KD> to.
Karen,
I spoke to the point, regardless of whether you think I did or not.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [2]
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:38:07
EID:d007 2065acc0
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cfabc
REPLY: 1:207/212 5eb8d4fb
Saturday March 02 1996 13:54, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> That's another one of Satan deceptions, provide enough false religion
KM>> and mythology, and pretty soon, people start putting what is true with
KM>> that which is false.
KD> Or perhaps religion is simply people's attempt to understand the
KD> uncomprehensible and no culture's answers are correct.
Karen,
Possible, but I don't think so, and if none of them are, I will never know
it.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:40:08
EID:ec6a 2065ad00
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cfbaf
Friday March 01 1996 17:10, Norbert Sykes mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Matthew 4:7 Luke 16:31
NS> You know, I really wish someone would put in a bible commentator or
NS> color man, like in basketball or football, so that we can see how
NS> these bible potshots are doing in the whole contest. While I think
NS> there _may_ be people around the world reading these words and
NS> frantically flipping pages, the majority of us (I'm speaking
NS> loosely here) might appreciate it if your quotes went beyond the
NS> mere citation. A lot of us would just like to know about rebounds,
NS> scores, and earned-run averages . . . };)
Norbert,
I stopped actually writing the quotes down because there were others here
that complain a lot about me repeating the verses over and over again. But
since it has been requested.
"Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord
thy God." Matthew 4:7
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither
will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: NOT a Ringer, I swear!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:42:09
EID:5167 2065ad40
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cfbdc
Friday March 01 1996 17:16, Norbert Sykes mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> I will accept the word on my Saviour Matthew 4:7.
NS> Your Savior is Matthew? Now THAT'S a serious schism in the Church
Norbert,
Excuse me for forgetting a comma.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:43:10
EID:0925 2065ad60
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cfc60
Friday March 01 1996 17:32, Norbert Sykes mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Dieing on a cross is DEAD.
NS> Yeah, so?
If you had bothered to read the prior posts, you would have seen someone
say that Christ did not die, my reply was that "Dieing on a cross is DEAD".
GR>> Does your church allow handicapped people in to worship? That is a
GR>> sin.
KM>> We do not worship in church.
NS> What do you do there, then? And where do you worship?
At home in private.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Sta
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:46:11
EID:d1ad 2065adc0
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cfd46
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3138a97c
Saturday March 02 1996 14:03, Kenneth Cavness mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> KM>>> has given the final sacrifice, it is finished, no further
KM> KM>>> sacrifice is required. Kenneth Mcabee
KM> KC>> So, while child sacrifice was hunky dory in the Old Testament,
it's
KM> KC>> not okay now.
KM>> If you read the account again you could see that Abraham
KM>> never believed that he would actually have to sacrifice his
KM>> child.
KC> Then it was never a true test of Abraham's faith. Your god failed.
So your God now, and can say who did or did not fail?
KC> In fact, your god _did_ require that test of Abraham. Your god told
a
KC> man to kill his son. Then your god changed his mind.
Can you show me those words "god changed his mind" from the Bible? Specifically
about telling Abraham to kill his son?
KM> KC>> Your god sure is mercurial.
KC> Your god sure is mercurial.
KM>> He sure is, praise the Lord.
KC> That you cannot recognise the contradiction in this and in the rest
of
KC> the requisites for your god is very telling.
That you cannot recognise the truth of the scriptures and only that which
Satan wants you to see is very telling....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: He's Jealous! He's Crazy
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:49:12
EID:4ae1 2065ae20
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cfd9f
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3138ae6e
Saturday March 02 1996 14:24, Kenneth Cavness mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KC> Kenneth,
KM>> I don't wonder I know...
KC> Jeremiah was a bullfrog,
KM>> As in the days of Noah...
KC> 'was a good friend of mine,
KM>> As in the days of Lot....
KC> Never understood a single word he said,
KM>> 'nough said.
KC> But we always had a might fine time, yeeees,
KM>> Kenneth Mcabee
KC> We always had a mighty fine time.
Kenneth Cavness,
Singing joy to the world,
All the boys and girls,
Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea,
Joy to you and me.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Kenneth Cavness
|Sub: Relative Stupidity
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:51:13
EID:032f 2065ae60
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cff71
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 3138b014
Saturday March 02 1996 14:31, Kenneth Cavness mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> No I don't, just because I refuse to tempt God with your
KM>> little test, does not mean that I call God a liar. Is there
KM>> any example in the Bible of someone purposely drinking
KM>> poison to prove that they were faithful?
KC> Unless you are a literalist, this should serve.
KC> Paul allowed himself to be bitten by a viper.
Kenneth,
Let's see now.....
"And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire,
there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand." Acts 28:3
Sorry, but Paul did not allow himself to be bitten, nowhere does it say
that he allowed himself to be bitten by the viper. In verse 5 he shakes
it off into the fire, if he had "allowed" it to bite him, why would he have
shook it off?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: apostate
|Date: 05 Mar 96 21:58:14
EID:608a 2065af40
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cffbf
REPLY: 1:109/601.0 1379c1ab
Sunday March 03 1996 02:59, Steve Rose mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KD>> And why should I believe someone who believes in the mythology that
he
KD>> WAS crucified?
KM>> I don't understand why someone who believes it to be
KM>> mythology would spend so much time here debating it.
SR> Because you won't stop bringing it up...stupid!
Steve,
I see that you still make comments about it, I see this echo is still here
for "religious discussion", and since it is, I will keep talking about it.
But of course, I believe it, and have reason to want to talk about. What
logic do you have to spend so much time on something you don't believe?
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Kenny is back into his de
|Date: 05 Mar 96 22:00:15
EID:4df8 2065b000
MSGID: 1:271/460 313cffe6
REPLY: 1:207/212 cde77eea
Sunday March 03 1996 14:37, Karen Davis mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> Why? Because the knowledge of when English became a language will not
KM>> get me into heaven, nor does it add "fundy" to the dictionary.
KD> No, but our use of it will.
Karen,
And when it is added to the dictionary, I will accept it as a word.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Relative Stupidity
|Date: 05 Mar 96 22:07:16
EID:4298 2065b0e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 313d01c1
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 631cdc78
Saturday March 02 1996 14:16, Martin Goldberg mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
GR>>> In fact you call your god a liar on this point.
KM>> No I don't, just because I refuse to tempt God with your little
KM>> test, does not mean that I call God a liar. Is there any example
KM>> in the Bible of someone purposely drinking poison to prove that
KM>> they were faithful?
MG> The bible is clear on this point. If you believe, you will not die
due to
MG> the poison. Drink it, Kenny. God cannot be tempted. He's perfect.
MG> doin't worry about it. Drink a big glass of turpentine. You'll be
OK.
MG> What? You don't wnt to? Scared you'll die? then your god is a liar.
Martin,
Christ did many miracles while he was here on earth with us, however anytime
one of the unfaithful, such as yourself, asked him for a sign, he refused,
he would not give them the sign that they requested directly of him. We
know
Christ by the things that he did, the signs were those miracles that he
performed for the faithful, not for the unfaithful. Since a Christian is
someone who is suppose to be following in the footsteps of Christ, we are
suppose to do those things that he told us to do, and to follow his examples
of what to do and when to do it. His example of what to do when the
unfaithful ask for a sign such as drinking poison is very clear. He would
not give it, therefore, following his example, we will not give it. How
can
you tell a Christian then? By the things that they do, not the things that
you demand of them to do. Matthew 4:7 "Jesus said unto him, it is written
again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." That's pretty clear, we are
not to tempt the Lord, to mix a drink of poison just to drink it, to prove
that we have faith, would be tempting God. It would be us, the Christian,
saying to God, go ahead protect us like you said you would, that would be
us seeking a sign from God, just as you do. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint
you, but I will not drink you mixture, but not because of what you claim,
that I do not have faith, but because I do have faith, and I do believe
in the Word of God, not just one or two verses, but all of the Word of God.
And that includes the part that says "And he said unto him, If they hear
not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose
from the dead." (In case you can't remember thats in Luke 16:31) So according
to the Bible, since you refuse to have faith to start with, you would not
believe even if I drank it, died, and came back to life! No, I will not
drink for you, you will not tempt me enough to make me tempt my God. Your
disclaiming my faith, will not make me unfaithful, it does not change the
fact that if when I die, I will spend eternity with Lord forever, and when
those that do not have faith in him before they die, die, that they will
spend eternity in the lake of fire, where the beast and false prophet will
be.......
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Christian blow jobs, Staa
|Date: 05 Mar 96 22:09:17
EID:9718 2065b120
MSGID: 1:271/460 313d02b9
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 631cdf62
Saturday March 02 1996 14:18, Martin Goldberg mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
GR>>> He requested it from Abraham and sacrificed his own son.
KM>> Abraham never believe that God would actually make him sacrifice
KM>> his own son.
MG> Bible quotes for this please. Where does Abe state that he does not
MG> believe that god will tkae his son?
Martin,
Genesis 22:5 "And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the
ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."
In this verse he said that he and his son would go, and return.
Genesis 22:8 "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb
for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."
Abraham tells his son that God will provide.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Evidence
|Date: 05 Mar 96 22:14:18
EID:f863 2065b1c0
MSGID: 1:271/460 313d0331
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 313a2171
Sunday March 03 1996 04:08, Andrew Masten mumbled to Dan Ceppa:
AM> Quoting out of context, it looks like you have something, lets see
what
AM> it looks like in context.
Andrew,
That's the only way Dan knows how to take anything, out of context.
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 05 Mar 96 22:15:19
EID:3b4c 2065b1e0
MSGID: 1:271/460 313d03af
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63313739
Monday March 04 1996 03:16, J.J. Hitt mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> That's your opinion not mine. MY opinion is if the Bible is
KM>> wrong, then there is no God. Period, end of line, no more
KM>> story. When I die I will be dead dead dead.
JJH> Why do you say this? If you were convinced that the Bible was
JJH> in error what makes you so sure that you wouldn't seek out some
JJH> other text that also claims a divine origin?
With all that I have been through, and all I have heard and seen, if the
Bible is not real, nothing is.
KM>> But while I lived, regardless of whether God exist or not, I
KM>> will have lived my life for something that I believed in, right
KM>> or wrong.
JJH> Have you ever met anyone who claimed they were living their life
JJH> for something they didn't believe in?
Not yet.....
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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|From: Kenneth Mcabee
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES [1]
|Date: 05 Mar 96 22:16:20
EID:caaf 2065b200
MSGID: 1:271/460 313d0477
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 63314cda
Monday March 04 1996 03:25, J.J. Hitt mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM>> The people in Revelation 20 that stand before God, did not all
KM>> physically die, but the Bible calls them all "dead".
JJH> How do you know they didn't die?
JJH> Revelation
JJH> 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;
JJH> and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which
JJH> is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those
JJH> things which were written in the books, according to their works.
JJH> 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death
JJH> and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
JJH> judged every man according to their works.
Because those that are physically dead were not given up until after verse
12. In verse 13 the sea gives up it's dead, death and hell give up thier
dead.
JJH> Sounds like it's talking about dead people to me.
Your right, but your talking about spiritually dead, not physical. John
5:24 tells us that once one has believed, they are passed from death to
life. In other words, they are no longer dead. "Verily, verily, I say unto
you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting
life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto
life."
Kenneth Mcabee
--- FMail 0.96â
* Origin: Maximum Overdrive Hampton, Va 804-838-6092 (1:271/460)
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