God Damned Fundies!
|From: Becke Jones
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: REDACTED STORIES
|Date: 13 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:9c04 206d1800
On 10 Mar 96 10:44am, KAREN DAVIS wrote to BECKE JONES:
KD> On (08 Mar 96) Becke Jones wrote to Kenneth McAbee...
BJ>> You should've been able to figure that one out by the context in which
BJ>> it was used... Mysogyny is "hating women". Ask Staahl for
BJ>> enlightenment, that's his area of expertise...
KD> I hate to admit it, but a quick check of the dictionary indicates that
I
KD> put too many y's in there. It's Misogyny. That's what I get for
KD> messaging at 6AM.
Yeah, I thought about it myself after I posted....checked the dictionary,
and
you are right...that's what I get for not checking 'ole Webster..
Becke
... Meaningless gods cannot grant what they do not have.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 151
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Becke Jones
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: FEED PROBLEMS, OF COU
|Date: 13 Mar 96 03:00:00
EID:d0b9 206d1800
On 9 Mar 96 09:16pm, DAN CEPPA wrote to BECKE JONES:
->> On 03-07-96 03:00, Becke Jones got back to Preston Simpson
PS>> As some of the more observant amongst you may have noticed, I've been
PS>> absent for nearly a week. This is not my fault (no Satanic curses,
no
BJ>> Undoubtedly, not as much as _I've_ missed being away for nearly a
BJ>> year!! It's good to be back...=)
DC> You where here a year ago... Must've missed that!
Hmm...only spoke to you a few times last time around...I was a fairly regular
poster for quite a few months, until I moved and lost my feed...
DC> Have some more fun, and take it easy on Preston. After all,
DC> he just recently got his god diploma. As he can get testy and
DC> is not quite familiar with his newfound powers, give him a
DC> Twinkie. Besides, that's part of his official title!
So 'ole Preston finally made it to godhood, huh? ;)
Becke
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 151
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- KBBS vZ.20p (#ARI-00092)
* Origin: Craig's Place Columbus, Ohio(1:226/700)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Cult Christianity
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:27
EID:d2f6 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c83
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Don Martin Cult Christianity wgah'nagl fhtagn.
DM> I think that personality types are generated in part by
DM> the culture in which the kid is raised. Consider the
Certainly so.
DM> well-known survey in which Caucasian Americans attributed
DM> their good grades to the fact that they were smart, while
Americans are too used to being number one to remember a time
when they weren't.
DM> Oriental Americans were convinced that their working hard
DM> was responsible. There is a whole lotta space between those
Imagine that. Working hard for a grade.
DM> When I speak of Calvin rationalizing Christianity and
DM> the strength of his influence in this country, I did not
DM> mean that the Christians were any good at intellectual
DM> pursuits, just that they attempt to practice them. Notice
True; I've met some Christians who I consider to be remarkably intelligent
people--but they are few compared to the many I've met who aren't.
DM> that the fundies here invariably respond with chapter and
DM> verse for the Bible (a simulation of rationality) when asked
What they're saying is essentially, "It works for me, why shouldn't it work
for you?" Unfortunately, thinking people have realized that there isn't
an
instruction manual for life.
DM> for evidence. It is only when the hope of rationality is
DM> stripped from them that they give themselves over to the
DM> pure emotionalism of shrieking "IS NOT!"
Of course. If you held a belief that x was true, would you like it when
some wicked old thinking person told you that x was bunk?
PS> Therefore, IMO, intellectual religions are
PS> very nearly oxymorons and self-defeating. Religion shouldn't be about
PS> thinking your way into a state of religious bliss. It's about providing
PS> a release, even for a little while, from what Shakespeare referred to
PS> as the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
DM> The consolation is appealing.
Yes, it is, and that's one reason why non-religionists have such a tough
row to hoe, so to speak. We have to deal with life on realistic terms and
it can be a hard thing to admit that shit happens and no invisible god is
going to fix it.
... Coming soon- DOOM III: What the HELL?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: John Oliver
|Sub: Hello!
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:28
EID:42b7 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c86
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh John Oliver Hello! wgah'nagl fhtagn.
JO> Am I getting out? Actually, this is a test message to see if the FD
JO> mailer is making it out? Please respond, flames accepted!
JO> Internet:joliver@turner.lamf.uwindsor.ca
Sure thing. Your message made it out here to sunny Memphis, TN.
... Death & his dog- "Fetch...heel...play dead" "Spot? Spot?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Mark Barnett
|Sub: ANGEL FUNDY
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:28
EID:6d57 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c87
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Mark Barnett ANGEL FUNDY wgah'nagl fhtagn.
BJ>And where is your evidence for these angels? The Bible? And where is
your
BJ>evidence that the Bible is anything more then another fictional book?
MB> Ok were is your evidence that the Bible is just a Fictional book?
The fact that it speaks of a global flood of which there is no evidence
is a good starter.
... DM's Advice: Dungeons are more fun when filled with undead cockroaches
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Viability
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:29
EID:2bc8 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c88
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Andrew Masten Viability wgah'nagl fhtagn.
AM> adhere to Christ's teachings, have been the salt of the earth. Prior
AM> to the influence of Christianity, there were no big groups devoted to
AM> charitable work. In Christ's time, there were no food banks, no
Prior to the influence of Christianity, nobody was burned at the stake for
believing in the right god in the wrong way.
AM> abortion on demand, and the taxpayer pays for it. 30 years ago God
AM> was kicked out of the schools. Young people are now graduating who
Bullshit. "God" was not kicked out of schools (an omnipotent being who
was forced to leave some place? Not very omnipotent or omnipresent, is he?).
State-mandated prayer was seen rightly as being unconstitutional. Students
are still free to pray all they like, but they are not led by a member of
the faculty and there is no coercion for them to pray.
AM> find it difficult to fill out a application. Math and science skills
You are trying the old saw of linking increasing American inaptitude in
school with a lack of state-mandated school prayer. This is ridiculous,
Andrew. The Japanese don't grovel before your god, and yet their schools
regularly turn out students who are better-educated than ours. Admit it:
It isn't that "God" was "thrown out" of our schools. It's the simple fact
that our educational system's standards have dropped and our students are,
often times, too lazy to do the work that would put them ahead.
AM> even make the papers anymore. There are more unwed mothers than ever.
AM> And no wonder. Sexual promiscuity at younger ages is on the rise.
Psst. Andrew. Before what we refer to as the "Modern Age" came into being,
*everybody* was having sex at "younger ages." Reason? Because people didn't
live very long back then and it was to their advantage to get started
on having kids as soon as possible.
AM> Many, half hour sitcoms, are laced with sexual innuendo. Pornograhy
AM> is a billion dollar cottage industry. You can't go to a convience
AM> store without being assaulted with all manner of depravity.
Get off it, Andrew. By the standards you've laid down, the Bible is one
of the most pornographic documents ever written. It's chock full of
sex, incest, rape, violence, murder, and torture.
AM> Consequently sexually communicable diseases are also on the rise. And
Did you ever stop to think that a lot of this is due to the fact that there
are more people now than there were centuries ago?
AM> there becoming more resistant to medication. Then there's aids. Which
AM> I don't think is God's personel judgement, just the natural
AM> consequences of living a life contrary to God's plan.
Tell me why innocent children have to die as "consequences" to not groveling
before your god. Your god, as you've described him, is a murderer, a tyrant
of proportions almost unimaginable to the human mind.
AM> ill's of a society to be the result of Christianity. It was the
AM> Judeo-Christian ethic that made this country rise to world dominance
AM> in short order.
What Judeo-Christian ethic might that be? Invade a land that you say you
were promised and kill the inhabitants thereof?
... Seems like the fireball burned up all the treasure. Bummer.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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|From: Preston Simpson
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: False Christians
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:30:29
EID:5c82 206d8bc0
MSGID: 1:123/318.0 31474c89
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.45 7703
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell False Christians wgah'nagl fhtagn.
LC> Why is the Christian Coalition supporting Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan?
LC> Bogus Bob is a 33rd. degree Mason, and Pat Robertson said - in his
LC> book - that the upper echelons of the "lodge" were Luciferians. And
LC> didn't Dole say that his administration would be inclusive of
LC> homosexuals (an abomination to God).
LC> ... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
LC> -+- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
LC> + Origin: The Anarchist's Kitchen... Is Something Burning?
LC> (1:123/319)
DW> Have I told you how happy I am that I left Memphis lately? :)
Not lately. I think I'll move to Atlanta. Better weather, more things
to do, and no having to share space with cretins like the one quoted
at top.
... Do not disturb. Already disturbed.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Fregi Ventum, not just a pretty fragrance! Memphis TN (1:123/318)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Rob Burcham
|Sub: GAY LOVE
|Date: 13 Mar 96 05:46:00
EID:5dc1 206d2dc0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 57433d69
SS> I would say that both arose from a deep need for "answers." We
SS> humans really hate it when we don't know the whys and
SS> wherefores and there are always people who are more than happy
SS> to make something up and then become the "person who knows the
SS> answer." If they can make a buck from becoming a self-styled
SS> "expert," all the better.
RB> Like a 4 year old on her father's knee: "Daddy, where did I
RB> come from?" So it is with myths.
As in the old joke: "Daddy, where did I come from?" Daddy goes
through the whole routine only to hear, "Charlie is from Toledo."
... The worst ice cream flavor is probably squirrel.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
---
* KMail 3.10m Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: OUR DAILY ALIEN
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:28:06
EID:7ae5 206d5b80
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ac5cc2
On Mar 12 07:54 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
JH>> "They're made out of meat."
JB> What a strange coincidence. I just started reading this
JB> story last night.
You mean the above was part of a larger work? I just stole what I
saw in IUFO. If it's part of a larger work of humor/fiction I'd
love to know what the actual source is.
JB> It brought to mind not just Mooth, but
JB> several posters here.
A meathead flapping his meat at us? Yes, it does indeed fit...
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:38:14
EID:13e5 206d5cc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63ac6dab
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3141e596
On Mar 09 20:09 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
DW> I know I'm Jehovah.
Are not!
I AM Jehova. Twice.
J.J. (Jehova Jehova) Hitt
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Terry Liberty-Parker
|Sub: Waco Rememberance
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:51:38
EID:73b7 206d5e60
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63aca6fb
REPLY: 1:382/804.0 1459dc71
On Mar 12 09:55 96, Terry Liberty-Parker of 1:382/804 wrote:
JJH>> 40 to 50 pounds of black powder
JJH>> 30 pounds of Potassium Nitrate
JJH>> 5 pounds powdered Magnesium
JJH>> 1 pound Igniter cord
JJH>> 90 pounds of powdered aluminum
[...]
JJH>> 1) Sulfuric acid
JJH>> 2) Nitric acid
JJH>> 3) Baking soda
JJH>> 4) Saw dust mixed with aluminum powder
JJH>> Not only had they ammassed a large arsenal (the above
JJH>> only represents one year's addition to what they already
JJH>> owned), but as evidenced by the chemical purchaces they
JJH>> were planning on manufacturing explosives.
TL> Might justify an investigation; not an assault.
The above are not grounds for an investigation, they ARE THE
RESULTS of the investigation that was conducted.
How do you think the situation should have been dealt with?
Do you really think that sending them a postcard asking them
to please stop would have worked?
And please try to reply without informing me YET AGAIN that
the only daily newspaper in Austin has the largest daily
distribution in Austin. I already know this.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: I'M WORKING ON IT
|Date: 13 Mar 96 12:33:20
EID:7b39 206d6420
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63acf0ea
On Mar 09 08:05 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
JB> Yeah, for some reason, my netmail will have 1:1/0 appended
JB> to BOTH the to: and from: lines when I upload it. Neither of
JB> us can understand what is going on or why it is happening.
Just guessing... (but sometimes you have to say something incorrect
just to prompt someone to correct you with the right answer. Every
one loves to correct others.)
That would be the ZoneGate address for Zone Zero if such a zone
existed. Do you (or your sysop) have Zone One defined as the
default zone?
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: URL!
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:24:34
EID:35ba 206d8b00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63af9dec
On Mar 12 08:07 96, Judith Bandsma of 1:372/911 wrote:
->> Non carborundum illegitimus.
JA>> translation of the middle word there will be a big help.:)
JB> 'Don't let the bastards grind you down'. (Loosely)
It's no wonder that it was the middle word that confused her.
The above isn't "real" latin, but rather an advertising slogan
used by a manufacturer of industrial abrassives. Their name is
Corborundum.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: THEY'RE AT IT AGAIN
|Date: 13 Mar 96 17:38:52
EID:a902 206d8cc0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63afd359
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314576f3
On Mar 12 13:05 96, David Worrell of 1:3615/41.11 wrote:
DW>>> How many damned moderators do they have over there now,
DW>>> anyway?
JB>> A better question would be 'how many posters do they
JB>> have?'. I think about every 3rd person has some moderation
JB>> capacity after their name.
DW> Kevin informed me that they have 8 moderators (of some type
DW> or another). Considering that they only had seven regular
DW> posters (excluding all the gated internet stuff) when I was
DW> there last, that's some feat. :)
I loved how they had "specialized" moderators. Not only did
they have a "Science Moderator" (I've no idea what his function
was... maybe to keep scientifically accurate states out of the
echo), but they also had an "Alien Science Moderator".
But you're right... they had no one to moderate except each other.
I'd love to see them slam the door shut on the gated Internet
material, but they seem to think it's some sort of benefit.
It's like walking into someone's living room for quiet conversation
but first turning on the TeeVee, stereo, garbage disposal, blender
and dishwasher while playing bagpipes and lighting off six foot
strings of chinese firecrackers.
Some dialog may be possible under such conditions, but I don't think
it adds anything to the exchange.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Taking a break
|Date: 13 Mar 96 22:21:34
EID:d92a 206db2a0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b24f95
REPLY: 1:350/401.0 893F0E42
On Mar 12 09:39 96, Dan Ceppa of 1:350/401 wrote:
DC> Then again, perhaps the ground has thawed enough so that
DC> John can continue work on the tunnel that he's digging to
DC> get into the Vatican vaults. I wonder if he's trying to
DC> dig around the world or straight through the core?
Just down to the first turtle.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Come Together
|Date: 13 Mar 96 22:23:11
EID:1c63 206db2e0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b26537
REPLY: 1:124/9005 31467f03
On Mar 13 07:53 96, Steve Quarrella of 1:124/9005 wrote:
SQ> Did anyone point out to this person that John Lennon once
SQ> indicated that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus
SQ> Christ?
I'm not about to. It would result in an "Off With Their Head"
banishment. (Two to four weeks later, in typical Stocks
fashion.)
I had always assumed that IF the song was about anyone, it
was about John Lennon. Taken in light of Glenda's
"revelation" it seems OK for John to make that statement
because he WAS Jesus Christ.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Re: Angels or Demons???
|Date: 14 Mar 96 00:43:32
EID:d48a 206e0560
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b3a3fd
REPLY: 1:116/19 05117CEA
On Mar 09 08:05 96, Al Schroeder of 1:116/19 wrote:
JH>> Do you have access to a shortwave receiver? I know where
JH>> you can hear hour after hour of this racist crap. The
JH>> material is so wildly bizare it's hard to believe it's not
JH>> some complicated joke. Unfortunately, they're dead serious.
JH>> They're also organized, funded, armed and dangerous.
AS> Stuff like Grigor-Scott's? Followers organized, funded,
AS> armed, and dangerous?
AS> You have depressed me more than you know. Still, forewarned
AS> is forearmed.
Hells bells, Al...
You're in Nashville, home of WWCR (who just put a fourth transmitter
on-line recently). You probably don't even need a shortwave radio,
you should be able to pick them up on your toaster.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: God's Word
|Date: 14 Mar 96 02:03:30
EID:e118 206e1060
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b46544
REPLY: 1:170/309@fidonet.org 9051bf03
On Mar 13 12:36 96, Karl Schneider of 1:170/309@fidonet.org wrote:
JJ>>KS>But they sure as hell DELETED a bunch of it...
JJ>> Such as?
KS> The Apocrypha.
The KJV translators translated the Apocrypha. And published it.
You'll have to blame the "Bible Societies" of the last century
if you want to point a finger at someone. They were the one's
who decided to exclude it from the Bibles they printed and
distributed.
The Bible in the format we are now familiar with is less
than 200 years old. (The KJV was translated almost 400 years
ago.)
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Found him!!!
|Date: 14 Mar 96 03:29:06
EID:1c80 206e1ba0
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 63b524d9
REPLY: 1:352/266 31424F2C
On Mar 09 20:42 96, Masochistic Maiden of 1:352/266 wrote:
MM> Second one is the moderator on FIDO Magick. He at least
MM> goes by the title.
We've already had him in here. He's a little prig who doesn't
like "bad words", "personal attacks" or being asked to substantiate
his claims with actual evidence. He didn't last very long.
Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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PATH: 106/9788 888 449 2000 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Join Censorship Lawsuit
|Date: 13 Mar 96 08:48:28
EID:2faa 206d4600
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 146de9f4
-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: netmail) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd.
Originally from --Todd Lappin--> (1:382/87.0) to terry liberty-parker.
Original dated: Mar 13 '96, 08:35
Apparently-to: Terry.Liberty-Parker@804.ima.infomail.com
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:51:30 -0800 (PST)
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin-->)
Jerry Berman from the Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) forwarded
a
handy Fact Sheet about the CIEC lawsuit to me today. It does a nice job
of
clarifying what the suit is all about, and what makes it unique. I've
attached the full text below.
Meanwhile, as of 5:30 PM tonight EST, 22,237 Net users have registered to
join CIEC by signing up on the Web. That's super-impressive, but
registration will close on March 15. If you haven't done so already,
please steer your browser to:
http://www.hotwired.com/special/lawsuit
or
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/
Spread the word!
--Todd Lappin-->
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine
=================================================================
CITIZENS
INTERNET
EMPOWERMENT
COALITION
1634 EYE STREET NW, SUITE 1100
WASHINGTON, DC. 20006
(202) 637-9800
FAX (202) 637-0968
Management Committee:
Jerry Berman,CDT
William Burrington,AOL
Judith Krug,ALA
Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition Litigation Fact Sheet
March 1996
In response to the indecency restrictions imposed on the Internet
by the Communications Decency Act (CDA), the Citizens Internet Empowerment
Coalition has been formed to challenge the law as violative of the First
Amendment.
The Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition (CIEC) is a large and
diverse group of organizations who share the common goal of protecting the
First Amendment and the viability of the Internet in the 21st century.
Its
35 organizational members include libraries, book publishers, newspaper
publishers, editors, advertisers, commercial online service providers,
Internet access providers, non-profit groups, and civil liberties
advocates. Over 10,000 individual Internet users have also joined the CIEC
effort. The CIEC is coordinated by the Center for Democracy and Technology,
America Online, and the American Library Association.
The primary goal of the coalition lawsuit is to establish in
constitutional jurisprudence that the Internet is a unique communications
medium, deserving unique First Amendment protection -- that it is unlike
the broadcast medium and, should receive at least the same broad protection
afforded to the print media. Coalition members believe that children can
be protected from inappropriate material online with the help of blocking
and filtering technology now available. Parents, not the United States
Government, are the best and most appropriate judges of what material is
appropriate for themselves and their children.
The Coalition law suit, ALA v. United States Department of Justice
et al. was filed on February 26, with a Preliminary Injunction Motion
filed later on March 1. The suit, handled by Bruce Ennis of the law firm
of Jenner and Block in Washington D.C. , has been consolidated with one
filed earlier by the ACLU challenging the CDA. A three-judge court convened
by the Federal Third Circuit Court of Appeal in Philadelphia will hear
evidence in the consolidated case through the middle of April, with a
decision expected soon after. The case will then go directly to the United
States Supreme Court.
Educating The Court On The Nature Of The Internet And Alternatives To
Censorship
CIEC's complaint and memorandum in support of motion for
preliminary injunction detail the history of the Internet and outlines how
the network operates. The CIEC intends to educate the court on how the
Internet functions and why the broad content regulations imposed by the
CDA
threaten the very existence of the Internet as a viable medium for free
expression, education, and commerce. Among other things, the CIEC
challenge argues that:
* The Internet is a unique communications medium which deserves First
Amendment protections at least as broad as those afforded to print media.
* In light of the unique nature of the Internet, the CDA's effort
to
graft old dial-a-porn regulations onto the Internet amounts to a total ban
on a vast amount of constitutionally protected speech between adults.
* The CDA will be ineffective at protecting children from "indecent"
or "patently" offensive material on the "world-wide" web. The net is
global.
* Individual users and parents, not the Federal Government, should
determine for themselves and their children what material comes into their
homes based on their own tastes and values. Easy to use and effective
blocking software and services are readily available for this purpose.
The full text of the CIEC complaint, along with other relevant background
information, and information on how you can participate in this landmark
case, can be found on the CIEC World Wide Web Page at
Impact of the Communications Decency Act
Liability under the Communications Decency Act (CDA) extends from
commercial and non-commercial content providers, web site operators,
libraries, universities, and online service providers who host or provide
material which violates the indecency ban. Although this case involves
a
ban on indecent communication on the Internet, the way the Supreme Court
resolves that issue will effectively resolve the constitutionality of a
later ban on offensive, violent, hateful or otherwise unwanted
communications online. In order to assure that Internet can continue to
be
a forum for the free exchange of valuable information and ideas, free from
onerous and chilling censorship, we are challenging the indecency
restrictions contained in the Communications Decency Act.
Relationship with Other CDA Challenges
The CIEC challenge is separate from the case brought by the ACLU,
EFF, EPIC, Planned Parenthood, and several other plaintiffs in the same
Philadelphia court on February 8, 1996. CIEC is working closely with ACLU
attorneys and the two cases have recently been consolidated. The CIEC case
will reinforce the ACLU's efforts while focusing on the unique nature of
the Internet and alternatives to government content regulations.
Membership in the Coalition
The Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition is a large and diverse
group of Internet users, businesses, non-profit groups, and civil liberties
advocates who share the common goals of protecting the First Amendment and
the viability of the Internet as a means of free expression, education,
and
commerce.
Named Plaintiffs In The CIEC Challenge
American Library Association
America Online, Inc.
American Booksellers Association
American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression
American Society of Newspaper Editors
Association of American Publishers
Association of Publishers, Editors and Writers
Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition
Commercial Internet eXchange
Compuserve Information Services, Inc.
Families Against Internet Censorship
Freedom to Read Foundation
HotWired Ventures Ltd.
Interactive Digital Software Association
Interactive Services Association
Magazine Publishers of America
Microsoft Corporation
Microsoft Network
NETCOM On-line Communications Services, Inc.
Newspaper Association of America
Prodigy Services Company, Inc.
Society of Professional Journalists
Wired Ventures Ltd.
Other Members Of The Citizens Internet Empowerment Coalition Plaintiff
Americans for Tax Reform
Association of American University Presses, Inc.
Association of National Advertisers
Association of Research Librarians
Center for Democracy and Technology
Coalition for Networked Information
Media Access Project
Media Institute
Microsystems Software, Inc.
National Assoc. of State Universities & Land Grant Colleges
People for the American Way
Recording Industry Association of America
Special Libraries Association
Surfwatch Software, Inc.
University of California Santa Barbara Library
Over 22,000 Individual Internet Users
Center for Democracy and Technology
1634 Eye Street NW Suite 1100
Washington, DC 20006
(202) 637-9800 F: (202) 637-0968
email: jberman@cdt.org
http:/www.cdt.org/
* PROTECT THE INTERNET AND THE FUTURE OF FREE SPEECH IN THE INFORMATION
AGE *
Join the legal challenge against the Communications Decency Act!
For More Information, Visit the CIEC Web Page
http://www.cdt.org/ciec/
or email
___
--- timEd 1.00+
* Origin: LibertyBBS Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
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PATH: 382/804 91 92 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Christianity
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:14:07
EID:d7ea 206b41c0
MSGID: 1:207/212 a108fdba
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 3141d9a6
On (09 Mar 96) David Worrell wrote to Karen Davis...
DW> Are you going to let him get away with calling you an xtian?
Well, unfortunately Styx doesn't have any rules against personal attacks
or defaming someone's intelligence in this echo... so all I can do is
correct him.
... "I remember doing the time-warp..."
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Andrew Masten
|Sub: Thumb-sucking Fundy
|Date: 11 Mar 96 08:17:43
EID:b4a6 206b4220
MSGID: 1:207/212 d5e98b27
REPLY: 1:138/255.0 3141d87c
On (07 Mar 96) Andrew Masten wrote to Fredric Rice...
AM> You still haven't shown how the teachings of Christ can be used
AM> as a pretext for rape murder and torture.
The fact is, they *are*.
Look at the anti abortion murders and assaults.
Look at the fact that rape is highest in the Bible belt.
... "It's beyond me! Help me Mommy!" -- Brad Majors
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Istambul paraphrased
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:34:30
EID:0a65 206b9c40
MSGID: 1:207/212 955fbf0b
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B4390
On (08 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Masochistic Maiden...
MH> Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the
MH> Father but by me." This is either true or it isn't. If it is, then
MH> any idea of God which denies that truth is wrong. If it isn't true,
MH> then
MH> those of us who believe it are wrong.
And why would an omnipotent god send one man, or go down as one man, not
enabling the rest of the world to benefit from a messiah of their own
culture?
Why only one way? As a teacher and enforcer of rules, I find most
success in maintaining constructive, positive behavior by permitting
multiple choices. Particularly when I'm dealing with someone I need to
stop doing something. An example would be the choices I give children
when they're finished with their work.
... Monday is a hard way to spend 1/7th of your life.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: hell and dalmatians
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:42:23
EID:94f0 206b9d40
MSGID: 1:207/212 080b8e67
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B4399
On (09 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Rena Mcgee...
MH> So a wise father simply waits for *you* to decide whether you want
to
MH> come home or not. If you do, he rejoices and you are welcomed in to
MH> enjoy all the benefits of your father's house. If you don't, your
MH> father is very sad. But there's no way he can force you to want to
MH> come home, short of lobotomizing you. And destroying who you are in
MH> order to make you want to be home is too high a price.
But you can only come home via one road. Even though a map shows that
many roads lead home according to the map. He also says that I have to
lobotomize myself and be a submissive wife to some man in order to make
it to him. And believe in idiotic things which defy logic.
Since that human father forced me to go live in that rat infested
apartment in the first place, I see no reason to go back to him.
Particularly since he allowed a book to be published in his name
indicating that I'm less of a person than my husband.
... 1000 + messages and they call it a QWK packet??
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: face value
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:45:30
EID:24ab 206b9da0
MSGID: 1:207/212 4ae7c6c3
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B439B
On (09 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Kenneth Cavness...
MH> 1. People believed the resurrection very soon after it allegedly
MH> happened. Typically, such legends don't develop for decades or
MH> centuries after the death of a leader, and certainly not within the
MH> lifetime of people who knew the leader personally, especially people
MH> who opposed him. In Jesus's case, no more than five years could have
MH> passed.
We have no evidence that this is true.
MH> 2. There were a number of other alleged messiahs in the century or
so
MH> before and after Jesus. In all cases, when the leader died, the
MH> movement died or else found a new messiah -- sometimes a relative of
MH> the dead one. In Jesus's case, the movement grew much stronger after
MH> his death. And although there was an obvious candidate for a
MH> transferred messiahship -- his brother James -- there's no evidence
MH> that the Jesus-followers' confidence in Jesus ever waned.
Then why do the Mormons still exist?
MH> 3. Jews tend to make shrines of the tombs of fallen leaders. We saw
MH> this just last year when Rabin was assassinated. Yet there's no
MH> evidence that Jesus's tomb was ever venerated.
Puts the lie to the fact that they really believed what he was.
MH> 4. The disciples had been questioning and timid before the
MH> resurrection. Afterward, they became bold and fearless, suffering
MH> persecution, and some dying for their insistence that the
MH> resurrection had happened.
They were convinced they had a good thing going. No different than
Joseph Smith or the Bab.
MH> 5. Any of the several parties which opposed the Christian movement
MH> could have stopped it cold by simply producing Jesus's body. But none
MH> did.
Any of the several parties which oppose Mormonism could debunk it in a
minute if they produced several things. But they don't or it doesn't
work.
... Hey! Barney's NAKED!!!
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Hardy's full of what-else
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:48:12
EID:2b68 206b9e00
MSGID: 1:207/212 2016f401
REPLY: 1:3625/470.0 893B43A1
On (09 Mar 96) Michael Hardy wrote to Martin Goldberg...
MH> But why is it that there are people who are well-educated in
MH> disciplines where evolution is assumed, who hold degrees from
MH> prestigious non-sectarian institutions, who reject evolution if
MH> evolution is so obviously true?
Because the idiocy of religious brainwashing knows no bounds.
... Avoid cliches like the plague -- They're a dime a dozen
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i [1]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:51:00
EID:d5c5 206b9e60
MSGID: 1:207/212 f0797fd9
REPLY: 1:116/19 0511AD96
On (09 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Karen Davis...
AS> One step at a time. So you concede they truly believed in what they
AS> espoused. Which includes...
There are other options, but strong belief is most likely. That doesn't
make it any different from other religions.
KD> Nope, not all of them. And not one of them was a witness to enough to
AS> agreeing on an occurance, and you have every reason to believe each
AS> individual believed it, and if they corroborate each other...I leave
AS> the conclusion to you.
They DON'T corroborate eachother, that's the problem.
AS> Okay. Now, notice, I am NOT saying I can prove this in a present-day
AS> court of law, since obviously I don't have affadavits of a witness.
AS> But suppose, hypothetically, that a dozen people come in and testify
AS> under oath about a particular happening, and THEY ALL AGREE? What
AS> would the PRESUMPTION of the court be? That agreement between
AS> multiple witnesses lends authority.
Unless they've been hoodwinked.
AS> Not totally, even if you exclude the Bible accounts, which we will
AS> return to. Josephus, for instance, writes of the death of James, the
AS> brother of Jesus and head of the Jerusalem Church, and places it
AS> circa 60 AD. (I will freely concede that the reference to Jesus
AS> elsewhere is obviously added on in Josephus.) Suetonius writes of
AS> Christian activity in Rome, circa 60 AD that occurs within the
AS> lifetime of living witnesses to the original
AS> happenings.
The Josephus stuff is a fraud.
AS> accounts. It is demonstrable, if nothing else but sylistic grounds,
AS> that the four Gospel accounts are by four different hands. So we have
AS> FOUR
AS> seperate attempts at narration/biography (the Gospels), one history
AS> (Acts), 13 letters by one contemporary intimately connected with the
AS> movement (Paul), two letters by Peter (although I have my doubts
AS> about the second being actually by Peter)...a witness, three letters
All of which are horribly different and contradict eachother.
AS> corrupted. Suppose that one large volume has multiple
AS> accounts--McCarthy's comments on John, Ringo's, George Harrison's,
AS> Mick Jagger's, Roger
AS> Daltry's, etc. Then, two thousand years later, someone says, "We can't
AS> believe anything about John Lennon...after all, we have only ONE book
AS> about him left, and it isn't independently verified". The NT is in
AS> much the same boat. They tried, as best they could to gather as many
AS> documents that they
Two thousand years later, that book would not be enough, correct. Even
if it were a compilation. 2000 years from now there will not be any
information as to how valid those sources were. Particularly if the book
had been through the process the Bible has been through. For example,
whatever group decided the Epistles of Paul were suitable for a holy
document automatically make the rest suspect.
... When I take over the world remind me to snub you -Brain
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i [2]
|Date: 11 Mar 96 19:56:51
EID:d5c5 206b9f00
MSGID: 1:207/212 06cc4383
REPLY: 1:116/19 0511AD96
On (09 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Karen Davis...
AS> thought were authentic about Jesus together in one volume. I suspect,
AS> if they left them seperate, you would have more respect for them. But
AS> it is still the same number of authors.
Not necessarily. A compilation has had one editor/compiler. There is an
attempt to justify the information put in it.
AS> instance. And some of them may be relying on a single source. There
AS> are four accounts of Jesus' death and resurection. And
AS> again...religious martyrs have been dying for centuries. That is
AS> nothing unusual. Nor is the religious person claiming to be in
AS> contact with God or a prophet of God unusual.
AS> What is unusual is that the followers AGREE that they saw Jesus
AS> AFTER He had died...alive.
They agreed they saw him after he was SUPPOSED to have died. Now if
people agreed they saw Nicole Simpson today, I'd believe we had a
resurrection on our hands. I'd think we were hoodwinked, first. You see,
Nicole's death was verified factually.
AS> of the apostles (a contemporary, though not a witness in the same
AS> sense--Paul's vision by itself proves nothing) that they ALL claimed
AS> to have seen such, that they endured flogging by the Sanhedrin for
AS> preaching such, that some of them were imprisoned and at least one
of
AS> them died in Acts for saying such (and tradition gives us more,
AS> tradition that even a renowned historian like Michael Grant feels is
AS> true in Peter's case, for instance) than we are left with a dozen
AS> people---actually more, there was
This is no different from any other religion.
AS> I venture to say you would not treat any other documents from the
AS> ancient world the same way.
I treat all legends and mythology the same way.
... Elvis isn't dead, he's just pining for the fjords.
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
Y: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Karen Davis
|To: Al Schroeder
|Sub: Baha'i
|Date: 11 Mar 96 20:00:09
EID:c1a4 206ba000
MSGID: 1:207/212 d96f84d3
REPLY: 1:116/19 0511B886
On (09 Mar 96) Al Schroeder wrote to Karen Davis...
AS> But the Baha'i didn't die for what they knew was a lie. I think the
AS> Bab DID think he was in communication with God, as did Baha'ullah.
I
AS> may have my own opinions on whether they were RIGHT or not, but I
AS> certainly grant their sincerity. But it is one thing to imagine a
AS> voice in your head, it is quite ANOTHER thing to have a dozen people
AS> hear the same voice...or to see the same person, AFTER his death.
Yet there is no proof he REALLY died. Or that it was REALLY him after
his death. They could have been hoodwinked about the death or the
identity of the person.
AS> years THE ELVIS BOOK is all that remains of the records of Elvis'
AS> existence. What would you say to a debator in 4000 AD who dismissed
AS> the idea of Elvis
AS> because ALL the information about Elvis was contained in one book,
AS> even though inside that larger book it had all that information by
AS> all those different authors? The Bible isn't a "simple" anything.
They would be wise not to consider it factual. Or use it as evidence of
anything. particularly if a religion developed around it.
AS> Certainly we have evidence of at least one death (James, in
AS> Josephus) and a general persecution (Nero's, in Seutonius). We
AS> certainly have more accounts of the Resurrection of Jesus than we
AS> have of, say, Hannibal's crossing of the Alps...with elephants, yet!
Josephus's accounts are demonstrably fraudulent.
You wouldn't believe them unless they were sealed up in a cavern,
AS> sealed by a stone, with a rotting body? Or do you mean because they
AS> weren't standing in constant vigil over the body? But even _I_ would
AS> have more doubts if it was the DISCIPLES who maintained a guard over
AS> the body. But the body was guarded...by guards of either the Romans
AS> or the
AS> Sanhedrin, who had no vested interest in Jesus.
They had no vested interest in making sure it was absolutely secure,
either.
AS> But look at what a different thing THEY are claiming. They are
AS> claiming they saw their beloved leader, AFTER HE DIED, alive again.
AS> That they ate with Him, touched Him, etc. That they all saw Him.
AS> It's a different claim. It's a much more specific claim. It is an
AS> event, not an opinion. And it is claimed by many, not just one.
ANd the only claims are in the Bible. Legend and myth. By people he had
been brainwashing for years.
... Politics: poli=many tics=small blood-sucking insects
--- PPoint 1.98
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
SEEN-BY: 202/1207 203/15 206/2711 218/801 809 907 234/100 245/6910 251/12
SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
SEEN-BY: 2624/306 2806/1 3401/308 3412/1114 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240
SEEN-BY: 3615/7 50 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3 7107/9
PATH: 207/212 2 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Sean Mccullough
|Sub: LET ME GUESS(WRONG)
|Date: 12 Mar 96 19:47:00
EID:7973 206c9de0
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Brad Jackson <=-
SM> And I would suggest that all Bible believers find a church that is
SM> Mark 16:15-18 teaching.
SM> But I know they won't find ANY.
Actually, they would find some, tucked away in the back woods.
And they do handle rattlers and drink poison. Some die, of course,
but their faith was too weak, you see...
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO - (303) 421-7186 - V.34 (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 102/735 890 103/2 104/821 105/103 107/411 123/1
SEEN-BY: 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586 167/92 1103 200/204
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SEEN-BY: 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103 104 272/82 280/1 282/1 4073
SEEN-BY: 283/121 292/876 320/119 340/20 344/3 346/49 348/105 355/2 362/37
SEEN-BY: 369/110 372/200 379/10 380/25 387/31 396/1 406/100 600/253 760/600
SEEN-BY: 2002/2002 2430/1423 2433/225 2490/3001 2605/606 2613/5 2622/0
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PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 270/101 218/801
|From: John Brawley
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Alien pussy
|Date: 13 Mar 96 10:47:01
EID:b4b6 206d55e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 dfb665c1
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 6391f240
On 11 Mar 96, J.J. Hitt wrote:
JH> JB>> Damn fine work, too. Do you know whether the genitalia
JH> JB>> were "fuzzed out" in the original, or only for the network
JH> JB>> broadcast?
JH> JH>> That was the doing of the FOX network. The video as
JH> JH>> marketed by Ray Santilli has no digital fuzz.
JB> Since I haven't seen the uncensored video, what _is_ there
JB> between the legs?
JH> A hairless crack.
Noted. Thank you.
JB : jbrawley@toadnet.org
: john.brawley@p1.f9.n8012.z86.toadnet.org
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 Toadnet: 86:8012/9.1
... Knowing others is wisdom, knowing yourself is Enlightenment--Lao Tzu
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 13/13 90/90 100/4 265 435 525 757 102/735 890 103/2 104/821
SEEN-BY: 105/103 107/411 123/1 129/11 133/707 138/146 153/800 920 157/586
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SEEN-BY: 234/100 245/6910 251/12 260/10 801 261/1137 270/101 102 103
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SEEN-BY: 3550/500 3611/18 3612/240 3615/7 3619/25 3637/1 3653/777 3805/3
SEEN-BY: 7107/9
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 218/801
|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Michael Hardy
|Sub: Posting
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:52
EID:bd80 206db880
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MH> Yeah. There's a few new names in the echo here lately, but no sign
that
MH> they're going to be any more open than the old names. At least not
yet.
Is 'openness' a one way street? Should theists be open to
the possibility of a natural universe?
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Larry Craig
|Sub: False Christians
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:79bc 206db880
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LC> Why is the Christian Coalition supporting Bob Dole over Pat Buchanan?
LC> Bogus Bob is a 33rd. degree Mason, and Pat Robertson said - in his book
-
LC> that the upper echelons of the "lodge" were Luciferians. And didn't
Dole
LC> say that his administration would be inclusive of homosexuals (an
LC> abomination to God).
Prewett's got it wrong. Kennedy's not the anti-Christ, it's
Bob (the Dark Prince) Dole!
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Cabbage: The age of a taxi
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: FOF UPDATE, STAAL
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:ba5d 206db880
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14390116
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 214 days
JH> SW> ever here the tune Stairway to Heaven? of course you
JH> SW> have-there's a lyric in there that says "sometimes all of
JH> SW> our thoughts are misgiven."
JH>
JH> AT LAST! AT LAST!
JH>
JH> I've found someone who understands Led Zepplin lyrics!
Maybe he'll explain the lyrics of Yes next.
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Archaeologist: A person whose career lies in ruins
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Allegory
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:b602 206db880
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14390117
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 214 days
DC> At the rate Mikey's twiting people, I'm suprised that he hasn't
DC> even twitted himself.
Wouldn't that be a 'twitorectomy' and require the services
of a licensed cash register repairman?
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Acoustic: Instrument used in billiards
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: A tale of 2 inerrantists
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:9b20 206db880
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DM> NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
DM> NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
DM> NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
DM> NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
DM> NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was
an
DM> NS> actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How cruel!
DM>
DM> Cruel to the ants and not all that kind to the anteater: imagine
DM> the creepy sensation that poor thing must have endured when taking a
DM> dump? Given that this animal eats nothing else, it must have been
DM> one of the most ardent cheerleaders for the original sin to take
DM> place before it starved to death.
Not only the anteater, but the scavengers must have had it
rough too. ...Please God, make SOMETHING DIE!!
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Anarchy: Such a good idea, it should be the law
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Avoiding the Question
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:caf8 206db880
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MSGID: 1:280/76.0 14390119
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From a message to Jim Germiquet:
DM> The "courtesy" this sort of verbal masturbation
DM> generally receives is that people will not bother to read
DM> your stuff except for its target possibilities. Have fun.
"Fundie at 2 O'clock. Josh McDowell approaching from the
rear. Firmament at high noon. Man your battlestations!"
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Apparent: A large, old, bossy person who tortures youths
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|From: Rob Burcham
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: drool game
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:04:53
EID:3278 206db880
TID: FMail/386 1.03f/b+
MSGID: 1:280/76.0 1439011a
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 214 days
Yakking with David Worrell:
LB> This sort of reminds me of Willy Wonka's contest -- which reminds me
of
LB> chocolate -- which reminds me of....YOU!
David's brown, tastes sweet and rots your teeth?
-!-
þ NFX v1.3 [000] Aardvark: Strenuous labor
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|From: Coridon Henshaw
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: FAQ quote?
|Date: 12 Mar 96 18:48:05
EID:e05a 206c9600
MSGID: 1:250/820 3145c743
REPLY: 1:3615/41.11 314207cd
*** Answering a msg copied to area PERSONAL.
On Saturday March 09 1996 at 22:35, David Worrell wrote to Coridon Henshaw:
JG>> It's a saying of Jesus. But who knows ? Could mars be a spiritual
JG>> planet ? Some say Jupiter is.
I don't read this area anymore. The FAQ is free for the taking if anyone
wants it.
--
Have YOU read the 'Communications Decency Act?'
Have YOU executed a Christian today?
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re:I want something New
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:43
EID:104c 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Jim Germiquet <=-
-> On 03-08-96 05:18, Jim Germiquet got back to David Worrell
JG> God CHOOSES to be limited.
DC> He does??? Why not prove the evidence that your god even exists
DC> before you tell us what you claim your god can do?
Hi Dan.
I was just browsing, and found you spewing the same (give me
evidence line) to Jim. Can you not come up with something a
little better? You have not shown one piece of evidence to
prove that God does not exist. We have a book full of God's
promises, that come true even today. Yet you can not prove that
these promises are not coming true.
Dan are you afraid to open a bible and read the truth? Have you
lived in the darkness so long that it scares you to look at the
light?
Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full
of [darkness]. If therefore the light that is in thee be
[darkness], how great that [darkness]!
Pray Dan Pray, for guidence!
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: satan what a laugh
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:43
EID:e5e6 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Jim Germiquet <=-
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan. If you mean a red guy with
JG> horns and a pitchfork, there is no point continuing this
JG> discussion. I havent seen him take that form. But I am sure
JG> many of us have seen him take the form of people like Charles
JG> Manson :-)
MG> What form have you seen him take?
Hi Martin.
I can't say I have meet satan in person, but he calls my BBS
just about every week. Or at least people claiming to be him. You
know what though he never calls back. Do you think he is afraid of
little old me? I don't think he is, I do however believe he is
afraid of Jesus. You see satan hydes from the light and is afraid
of him.
Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine
eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when is evil, thy body also full of [darkness].
John 1:5 And the light shineth in [darkness]; and the [darkness]
comprehended it not.
Are you afraid of the light that shines for all the world to see,
Martin?
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re:So Wrong So Wrong
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:44
EID:aa08 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jim Germiquet <=-
> And that is where you make your mistake sir. Jesus said "they will
> know you are christians by your love one for another".
FR> While ignoreing the rest of the bloody Christanic mythologies and the
FR> whole of world history. Adolf Hitler was no different than the
FR> thousands of tyranical, murdering Christians which came before him.
FR> The way one 'tells' a Christian is by their professed belief in the
FR> Christanic death cult.
Hi Fredric.
Where on earth did you get such information? Do you truly
believe what you wrote above? It is man lead by satan that does
these crimes against man. Please don't group me into some dream
world of yours, about christians. There are many that claim to be
christains but are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening [wolves].
Matthew 10:16 Behold , I send you forth as sheep in the midst of
[wolves]: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous
[wolves] enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
satan takes on many forms. It is not hard for satan to appear as
the light.
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for
ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed [appear] beautiful
outward, but are within full of dead bones, and of all
uncleanness.
So don't group true christains with the likes of Hitler and others.
Brad
... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Dawn Kleuser
|Sub: Re: Angels
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:44
EID:5079 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Dawn Kleuser to Karl Schneider <=-
DK> Aw, c'mon, Karl, yer wreckin' my fun...
Hi Dawn.
Does this mean you don't believe that there are angels? Have
you read your bible lately? I don't know if I can count the number
of times God sent his angels. So I would think if God knows they
are around and they serve him, we can take it to be true. For God's
word is true. You believe in Jesus don't you Dawn?
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of
godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the
world, received up into glory.
This verse covers more then one topic for you Dawn. One God One
Baptism and One Salvation.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none
other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Look to your Lord and God Jesus Christ for all your answers.
Brad
... The Upper Room BBS (905) 575-8985 Hamilton,Ontario Canada
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Steve Rose
|Sub: Re: Apostles Doctrine
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:44
EID:c0ec 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Steve Rose to Kenneth Mcabee <=-
KM> talking about it. But of course, I believe it, and have reason to
KM> want to talk about. What logic do you have to spend so much time on
KM> something you don't believe? Kenneth Mcabee
SR> Because, little Wormabee, you...much like your addicted-to fundy
SR> beliefs...are a nothing more then a great source of endless amusement
SR> to us. The fact that you don't even REALIZE this...makes it even more
SR> enjoyable.
Hi Steve.
What are these (Fundy Beliefs) you are talking about? I myself
believe in Jesus Christ! What about you Steve, what do you believe
in?
Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall [confess] me before men, him
will I [confess] also before my Father which is in heaven.
Are you afraid to confess our Lord Jesus Christ to Be God? Are you
afraid your friends will make fun of you? Well Don't be Steve you
can say the words. Come on now Steve repeat after me, I love Jesus
he is my Lord and saviour.
If you would like I will post as much as I can about God to give you
some insight on the Love of Jesus.
Brad
... Be a part of the Jesus Generation! Acts 2:38
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Kenneth Mcabee
|Sub: Re: Apostles
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:45
EID:f479 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
-=> Quoting Kenneth Mcabee to Steve Rose <=-
KM> Friday March 08 1996 08:54, Steve Rose mumbled to Kenneth Mcabee:
KM> Steve,
KM> Actually Steve I do realize it, but we will see if your still
KM> amused about it, after judgement day. BTW you must lead a pretty
KM> boring life if the best thing you can come up with for entertainment
KM> is to try and convience Christian that the Bible is not true.....
KM> Kenneth Mcabee
Hi Kenneth.
Steve seems to be a lost soul. I think it is a christains duty
to try and help the lost sheep.
Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, , I have set
thee to [be a light] of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for
salvation unto the ends of the earth.
So will you be a light for Steve to look to in the darkness he
lives?
Jesus did not send us out to save the saved but to save the lost.
Luke 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together friends
and neighbours, saying unto them, [Rejoice] with me; for I have
found my sheep which was lost.
John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit
unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may
[rejoice] together.
Be strong in the faith of Jesus Christ, our Lord and God.
Brad
... John 10:30 I and my father are one.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Brad Jackson
|To: Brian Kolacy
|Sub: Bible Verses
|Date: 13 Mar 96 07:40:45
EID:1700 206d3d00
PID: ProBoard 2.12 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10376
(On 03-03-96 Michael Hardy replied to Dan Hunting)
MH> Perhaps you should open your mind a bit. If a "well-reasoned non
MH> believer" can become a Christian, perhaps there's more to it than
MH>you realize.
MH> How about giving him a fair chance to convert you? If there's
MH>nothing to it, then you've nothing to lose. If there turns out to be
MH> more to it than you realized, then you have much to gain.
Have you given the same chance to the Islamic faith? Oh,
sorry...they're obviously not as intelligent as you;)
Hi Dan.
Do you believe in the Islamic faith? I don't that is for sure.
At least I don't go around telling other people that they are not
intelligent, like you just did. How do you know how smart Michael is? Is
it because he believes in God, that you find him so smart?
You too could be saved Dan. It does however take a little work
on your side of the fence. But I am sure you can get the help you need.
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made
that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said
unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall
we do?
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in
the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive
the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are
afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save
yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day
there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship,
and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Now Dan if you will just follow the Apostles Doctrine you will be on
your way to a good Christian life.
Brad
--- PB2.12|FD2.12|FE1.45 [Regstrd]
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|From: CHRIS CAMPBELL
|To: J.J. HITT
|Sub: Evil
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:27:00
EID:5716 206d5b60
MSGID: 1:377/77 48ba5c85
TID: GE 1.2
JJ;
JH>On Mar 08 22:55 96, Mark Craig of 1:123/610 wrote:
JH> MC> At the end of the 1000 years Satan will seduce the nations of
JH> MC> the world, prior to Armageddon -- rv.20:7-15.
JH> According to the standard Premillenialist view of Revelation, the
JH> Millenium will be 1000 years of utopian existence (a literal Heaven
JH> on Earth). BUT... for some unexplained reason at the end of those
JH> 1000 years God will fuck everything up by letting the Devil loose
JH> upon the Earth.
From a dualistic perspective, one must simply maintain the
balance.(g)
JH> Why? What possible sense could this make? Why does God feel he has
JH> to prove himself to somebody by kicking Satan's ass a second time?
JH> Is it that God just plain enjoys destroying things?
You don't. I sure do! Worked on a demolition crew for a while, most
fun I ever had, well almost.(g)
---
* OLX 2.2 TD * Press any key to continue or any other key to be.
--- WC!/IM!/GE-PRO1.20!
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|From: CHRIS CAMPBELL
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Angel Fundy
|Date: 13 Mar 96 11:38:00
EID:6768 206d5cc0
MSGID: 1:377/77 48ba5c86
TID: GE 1.2
Don;
DM> Others have got this; you might as well:
DM> Personally, I have said many times that I would welcome ANY
DM> evidence of the existence of any god, and I have even specified
DM> indirect evidence that would be quite convincing, not only to
DM> me, but (I suspect) to all the wicked atheists here: the residue
DM> of the Noachan Flood.
So your limiting evidence to physical evidence?
---
* OLX 2.2 TD * Unable to locate Coffee -- Being Halted!
--- WC!/IM!/GE-PRO1.20!
* Origin: Longbow BBS! Tampa, FL (813)961-3653 USR V.34+ DS (1:377/77)
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|From: CHRIS CAMPBELL
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Quoting
|Date: 13 Mar 96 12:17:00
EID:802c 206d6220
MSGID: 1:377/77 48ba5c87
TID: GE 1.2
Don;
DM>LAter, you say to Dan Cepa:
DM> DC> Not quite... the nasty fact of evidence is required to support
DM> DC> a theory, as well as predictions based on that theory. Otherwise,
DM> DC> you may has well believe in the Easter Bunny.
DM> MM> Oh, the old must have evidence to exist thing. Uh try this. Take
a
DM> MM> colorblind man, and try to give him evidence that color exists.
Other
DM> One of the most frequent (non)responses we get from fundies to
DM>requests for evidence is the attempt to cite some problem with the
DM>perceiver when no evidence is seen. I have been frequently told that
DM>I do not see god, not because there is no god there to see, but
DM>because I "have hardened my heart" and am therefore incapable of
DM>seeing gods. How all these fundies know so much at long distance
DM>about the condition of my heart remains a mystery, but it is still
DM>irrelevant: is any evidence for the postulated god visible?
No.(g) I'm not being argumentative, well maybe I am (g), but could
you please explain why you feel that this 'evidence' must be physical
in form?
---
* OLX 2.2 TD * Back Up My Being? I Can't Find The Shadow!
--- WC!/IM!/GE-PRO1.20!
* Origin: Longbow BBS! Tampa, FL (813)961-3653 USR V.34+ DS (1:377/77)
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|From: George Charity
|To: Jim Germiquet
|Sub: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 12 Mar 96 21:46:00
EID:35fb 206cadc0
MSGID: 1:381/152.0 14638ab0
REPLY: 1:2424/1004 20897f15
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8598
Jim Germiquet wrote in a message to Karen Davis:
JG> I don't know much about the Constitution, as a Canadian but isn't
JG> there something about America being "one nation undivided UNDER GOD
JG> "?
Wrong:
This quote is from the "Pledge of Allegiance" to the flag of the United
States and wasn't included in that until 1957. It was included by some of
the most viscous people to ever belong to our congress.
---
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Preston Simpson
|Sub: Two days to doom - take c
|Date: 12 Mar 96 19:06:01
EID:bf95 206c98c0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6d120208
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
PRESTON SIMPSON spoke thusly to DAVID WORRELL:
PS>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh David Worrell TWO DAYS TO DOOM - TAKE C wgah'nagl
PS>fhtagn.
PS> DW> You've obviously gotten used to dealing with False Southern male
PS> DW> scum - maybe that kind of thing works with them, but it doesn't
PS> DW> phase those of us who are Real, True Southern Males. Try again.
PS>
PS>I got your pic via e-mail recently. (Would have responded sooner, but
PS>the computer center got the bright idea of going down during spring
PS>break to clean up things and give everybody a brand-new randomly
PS>generated-password. I love bureaucracies.) You don't *look* like a
PS>Real, True Southern Male. You're not wearing a baseball cap with
PS>"CAT" printed on it, you're not wearing shitkicker boots, and you
PS>don't have a gut the size of Montana. You look more like an
PS>engineering prof or some such.
Dennis Miller, in other words.
... That's stronger than a garlic milkshake.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Enjoyment
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:34:02
EID:9ac5 206cb440
MSGID: 1:157/200 6d120219
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MM>KM> I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
MM>
MM>Hmmm then debunking fundies is ok for entertainment qualities?
Not just that. Much of the entertainment comes from my fellow heathens.
We have a large number of truly funny people here.
MM>I
MM>think for me that would depend on the persons character a bit. I
MM>really don't want to ruin a persons life just the get them to crack.
MM>For some, religion, or whatever type, is the one strong port on a
MM>very stormy sea. For others, its just a comfort.
MM>For me it's an intense curiosity.
Yes, but that port has no right to exist if, by existing, it is hurting
someone else. Fundamentalism hurts other people, and that is the
primary reason I object to it.
... Boy Scouts are better than Air Force: they have adult leadership!
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Masochistic Maiden
|Sub: Philosophy
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:35:03
EID:b312 206cb460
MSGID: 1:157/200 6d12022a
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
MASOCHISTIC MAIDEN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
MM>KM> I suppose it boils down to the fact that I enjoy doing this.
MM>
MM>That's what most things boil down to. People are driven by the desire
MM>to have fun! (And here I thought it was only girls.)
Of course. It's a biological imperative.
... Type hard. You are making 1,932,247 copies.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
--- InterEcho 1.14
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|From: Kevin D. Mckenzie
|To: Joanna Amren
|Sub: Url!
|Date: 12 Mar 96 22:37:04
EID:49c9 206cb4a0
MSGID: 1:157/200 6d12023b
TID: InterEcho 1.14 6E010747
JOANNA AMREN spoke thusly to KEVIN D.:
JA>-> What have you changed to, pray tell?
JA>
JA>I don't know yet. I don't think I'm done changing yet.:) I'm still
JA>thinking a lot of things through. But I know I don't see myself as
JA>Christian anymore. I don't see how I ever could again.:) I guess
JA>I'll just start believing what I know is true because I've seen it.
JA>I've never seen any god, so why should I believe in one? I guess
JA>what I've changed to is...a free-thinker? I dunno...
I'm not trying to insult you, but I think you need to do
some serious thinking and figure out exactly what you do and don't
believe in. I realize it may seem silly and useless, but until you do,
you are wide open for any con man who is able to make you belive what he
wants you too.
... All the normal brains were taken.
* CMPQwk 1.42 602 * Internet: kdm2@po.cwru.edu *
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|From: Jesse Jones
|To: Chad Osten
|Sub: Real
|Date: 13 Mar 96 06:03:18
EID:5dd0 206d3060
PID: OLMS 2.53p [ERSBN55C]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 143811a3
TID: GE 1.11+
Quoting CHAD OSTEN to BRAD JACKSON on 03-10-96
CO>what about those of us who have a problem because the bible
CO>contradicts itself so much? I have like 3 pages of contradictions
CO>(and not little ones mind you) of the bible that I could post here.
CO>How would we be able to follow something that is contradictory?
Accept it for what it is -- not a tome authored by the Almighty,
but a collection of diverse works by diverse persons responding to their
individual encounters with the "I AM" of all the cosmos.
Jesse Jones -- Miami, FL -- 03/12/96
72122.1763@compuserve.com
þ CMPQwk 1.42-R2 1319
System halted - Press any key you like, it won't help.
--- OLMS 2.53p+ [ERSBN55C]
* Origin: Sox! (305) 821-3317 Live from Hialeah_FL_USA (1:135/71)
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|From: Monty Arch
|To: Styx Allum
|Sub: Angels
|Date: 13 Mar 96 23:24:22
EID:31ab 206dbb00
MSGID: 1:236/64 2580ac99
TID: GE 1.11+
Styx asks-->
>>Was it wearing pink lace and white slippers with lots of glitter?
> > Only if my guardian angel was you.
>Well, since you're already in a fantasy world; it would be
>consistent that your fantasies about me would be equally absurd.
You wish you cross-dressing fairy.
--- Renegade v10-05 Exp
* Origin: T.P.R. Systems (219)744-0558 or (219)744-0455 (1:236/64)
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 cities...
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:38
EID:3b41 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba15
-=> Quoting Rick Mcfarlane to David Worrell <=-
RM> Given the fact that the language that the Bible was written in made
no
RM> distinction between bats and birds (a fact noted in my previous post,
RM> but carefully Hectorized out of the part you quoted back), only a moron
JG> A common tactic when trying to take something out of context or twist
JG> it to mean something it wasn't intended to. Or if it shows the error
JG> of logic in their own replies.
NS> Actually, Rick was wrong here in that he said the language (sic)
NS> that the bible was written in made no distinction between bats and
NS> birds.
NS> In the bible there are the following terms for birds and bats:
NS> -------------------------------------------------------------------
NS> bat or bats `atalleph [Hebrew] {at-al-lafe'}
NS> bat or bats.
NS> -----------------------------
--------------------------------------
NS> bird or tsippowr [Hebrew] {tsip-pore'}
NS> birds bird or birds.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
So if this word was used, it could refer to both.
Also just because a different word was used, is it not possible
that they may have considered a bat just another species of bird,
like an owl or a pigeon or a duck.
NS> `owph [Hebrew] {ofe}
NS> flying creatures, including insects,
NS> birds, and bats.
Again, denotes by using the same word for all, an inability or
at least a lack of categorization to differentiate them in
certain instances.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> `ayit [Hebrew] {ah'-yit}
NS> bird of prey.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> orneon [Hebrew] {or'-neh-on}
NS> bird or fowl.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> ts@phar [Aramaic] {tsef-ar'}
NS> fowl, bird, or like-birds.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> peteinon [Greek]
NS> flying or winged animals.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> ptenon [Greek]
NS> of winged animals.
NS> --------------------------------------------------------
NS> /\ ba`al [Hebrew] {bah'al}
NS> | | owner, husband, adversary, master,
NS> | with | archers, babbler, mangiven, have, bird,
NS> | | confederate, and captain.
NS> \/ kanaph [Hebrew] {kaw-nawf'}
NS> wing, skirt, borders, corners,ends,
NS> feathered, sort, and winged.
NS> Essentially: ba`al-kanaph (winged babbler, aka bird.)
NS> -------------------------------------------------------------------
NS> So the bible clearly does distinquish, when it wants to, between
NS> birds and bats. Just not in the particular scripture that is being
NS> cited, I believe. How is it that I, a non-Xtian, have a better
NS> grasp of your sacred text than either of you do? You display your
NS> own errors.
While I admire your technical knowledge of the bible, the scribes and
pharisees were much more knowledgeable than even yourself, I am willing
to venture. But it was with this group of people that Jesus accused
of fulfilling the letter of the law while ignoring the spirit or
"true meaning" of those words.
You have only indicated that there are different references in terms of
the
appearance of the animal , not on whether it was still considered as being
a "type" of bird.
In fact by showing that a word stood for both bats and birds and insect,
you have shown a lack of distinction in terms of classification. SO a
bat may have just been considered a different kind of bird.
When did the "classification" of bird come into effect?
... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: A tale of 2 inerranti
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:39
EID:786f 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba16
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> This brings up an interesting point, though. I assume you're
NS> speaking of the Garden of Eden. And its my understanding that
NS> there was no death in the Garden before Original Sin, but that
NS> everything was named before that. That being the case, why did
NS> they call a certain creature an ant-eater? You mean there was an
NS> actual animal ingesting others that could not die? How cruel!
For me personal the "garden of eden" was more of a metaphor, even though
it was given a physical location. Once again the garden of eden had to
be a story that was handed down by "word of mouth" for many generations
until the written language came into being. So who is to say how much of
this information was meant metaphorically and how much was meant literally.
And do you really believe there was a fruit called "knowledge of good and
evil" ? Sounds pretty metaphoric to me.
Something along the lines of "Fruit of the spirit" , "Fruits of your labor"
etc.
So what is the "fruit" of the knowledge of good and evil ?
If Adam chose to decide for himself what is good and evil, what
would the "fruit" of that decision be ?
No longer was man just another animal lead by instinct. Man recognized
himself as a sentient being. Man wondered where did this idea of right
and wrong come from ? Does a cat have an idea of right or wrong ?
Why do I consider it a "sin" to eat a fellow human being. Do other animals
have this "belief system" ? Where did it come from this "knowledge of good
and evil"....
This is the type of thinking I engage in when reading the old testament.
I don't automatically just take it literally.
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
--- GEcho 1.00
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: a theist hypocrisy
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:40
EID:6c8b 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba17
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
EJ> 1) he married his wife after she was impregnated with the firstborn
EJ> child 2) his latest deal formed a for-profit organization (IFE, owner
EJ> Robertson has no training in divinity instruction, despite having
EJ> attended Yale. Pat was converted by an evangelical minister and then
EJ> proceeded to announce "his calling". 5) The first station Pat Robertson
EJ> grabbed was flim-flam of a station owner who was strapped of cash and
EJ> wanting out of a television ownership. 6) Who are some of Pat
EJ> "flock" and there will be a link to Robertson.
JG> Your so called "dirt" didn't impress me. In fact it makes him look
JG> like a saint in light of the dirt that has been dug up of one of
JG> Americans greatest heros John F. Kennedy. If you are looking for dirt
I
JG> am sure you can find some on all of us. "For ALL have sinned and fall
JG> far short of the glory of God." And when you can't find enough you can
JG> misconstrue things and make them LOOK dirty when they in fact are not.
NS> Excuse me, but what happened to the end of number 2, the beginning
NS> of number 4, and all of number 3? Are you altering quotes?
I will often take out the middle of a quote to make it shorter and just
include the beggining and end to show the quote and context of the passage.
It is irrelevant what the dirt was in my opinion. AS noted in a later
message, I indicated that great men of god like David and Moses were
guilty of adultery and murder. All have sinned. Man is not a perfect
being. He is still undergoing the process of evolution. Now we are into
the spiritual evolution of man. Be patient, God isn't finished with us yet.
:-)
... He who dies with the most TAGLINES wins!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: Adolph Hitler
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:41
EID:e73f 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba18
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> Adolph Hitler:
NS> 1% Dan Ceppa, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
DC> Got evidence that Satan exists, John? If so, lets see it.
JG> Depends on your definition of Satan. If you mean a red guy with horns
JG> and a pitchfork, there is no point continuing this discussion. I
JG> havent seen him take that form. But I am sure many of us have seen him
JG> take the form of people like Charles Manson :-)
NS> Ah, then the answer is no, right? I've never seen Satan or anyone
NS> else take the form of another.
If "god" is a "spirit", as it says in the bible, then why can "satan" not
be a spirit as well ?
In fact Jesus said to his disciple Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan", when
Peter entreated him not to go to his death. But this was the will of god
and
anything that would go against that will, would be referred to as "satan".
So in the garden of eden, when Eve ate from the tree that God told them
not to, whatever it was that caused her to do so, could be considered
"satan".
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: DEFINITIONS FOR JIM
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:43
EID:cd20 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba1a
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> DEFINITIONS FOR JIM:
NS> 1% Karen Davis, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> How would you like it if I formed a group of people and we called
JG> ourselves Davistians. Now we go around and we rape little boys and
JG> kill gays and witches in YOUR name. We tell everyone that YOU told
JG> us to do these things. And thousands of KKK members and white
JG> supremists join our ranks and pedophiles and we all claim to be
JG> following the teachings of Karen Davis as devout Davistians.
NS> Gee, sounds just like Xtians. I think you've insulted Karen. I
NS> know *I* wouldn't want to be likened to a Xtian. BTW, though I'm
NS> sure Karen is divine in her own right, I don't think she's achieved
NS> official god statue in this echo. Several have, perhaps they're on
NS> the lookout for a hard working and up and coming individual such as
NS> yourself that seems highly motivated and has many suggestions.
I think I have made my point. If you choose to ignore it, and make light
of it for whatever reason, so be it.
... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Jim Germiquet
|To: Norbert Sykes
|Sub: Re: double standard alert
|Date: 12 Mar 96 14:09:44
EID:fbed 206c7120
MSGID: 1:2424/1004 248eba1b
-=> Quoting Norbert Sykes to Jim Germiquet <=-
NS> Re: double standard alert:
NS> 1% George Rudzinski, 10% Jim Germiquet,
NS> 40% Sugars, & 49% Inert Materials.
JG> Isn't that a surprise concidering I refer to myself as a Christian.
JG> According to Karen all Christians seem to be murdering, lieing,
JG> thieves.
NS> Incorrect reference, I'm sure. Show me where she said all Xtians
NS> were these things, or stop acting like a spoiled child.
try going back and reading her messages again. The implication is always
given that she is such a good person and she is not a christian and that
christians are thieves and liars.
And you ? I see you stoop to the debating tactics of calling people names
and making personal attacks. You think that by calling me a "spoiled child"
that it gives more credibility to your own message . I am not really
interested in such responses.
... The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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S