God Damned Fundies!
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 09 Mar 97 14:55:12
EID:d6dc 226976e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33225ed0
* On 07-03-97 at 20:28, DAVE HAMILTON wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Alternative or Straw." in echo Holysmoke:
DH> RS> Will you purchase me and send me a copy of the Revised Quote
DH> RS> Book, and, if you have a copy around or can obtain one, a copy
of
DH> RS> the Original Quote Book.
DH> You can't buy it. You have to trade your brain for it. It's an implant.
Although that I agree with the general theory that ownership of
the book and the subsequent dogma requires one to salvage their
brain for one the size of a pea, you can purchase the book :)
Rod "...I wonder if he will purchase me one?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The First Amendment overrules The First Commandment!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 09 Mar 97 14:59:14
EID:ed89 22697760
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33225fc2
* On 07-03-97 at 09:58, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> RS> :) :) Tell us about the "gooks", Jimson. :) :)
JS> You tell me, Giggles, you seem to know. I have never mentioned anything
JS> about 'gooks'.
No? So why, only two replies (and four minutes) after this message,
did you say:
===========================================================================
BBS: The Perth Omen
Date: 07-03-97 (10:02) Number: 2979
From: JIM STAAL Refer#: NONE
To: ROD SWIFT Recvd: YES
Subj: Ha! Conf: (16) Holysmoke
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> You did use the word "gook". You've used "sombee". You've used
RS> "commie".
Yes, I have, but not in the context you have put them...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JS> RS> You use the word "gook" as a synonym for the languages and
JS> RS> peoples of Vietnam.
JS> Oh, I did, did I? And where was that?
Oh, are you stupid, Jimson? Someone pull the quote file on him!
You clearly used the term "gook" and were CRITICISED by me, and
Richard Smith, among others, for being a racist little shit. :)
Rod "... You're now an ignorant racist little shit" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Physicist: An atom's way of knowing about atoms!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:01:16
EID:ed89 22697820
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3322603c
* On 07-03-97 at 10:02, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> RS> I'm sure Brother Fredric has some quaint reminders of your words
JS> RS> re: homophobia.
JS> Don't thinks so because they do not exist because I neither think nor
JS> speak concerning homophobia.
I do believe you don't think -- ever.
I do believe you have made comments about homosexuals that are
homophobic. Here's a few reminders.
I am condemning no one. The homosexual who sexually practices
his homosexuality condemns himself." - Jim Staal
"I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem
to particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart
from God even further than do pagan men." - Jim Staal
I must say you must live on a pink cloud to have let yourself been
deluded by these women. Their general purpose here has been clear to
me from the beginning: they hate men in general, and Christian men
in particular. - Jim Staal (Promise Keeper) HolySmoke, December 1996
...there is no life on other planets. If there were, the Bible
would have mentioned it. - Jim Staal (he's serious, by the way)
I reiterate what Fred said about you back on January 15, 1997:
Bathroom Staal continues to be one of the most evil and
filthy participants ever to grace us with his lunacy.
Rod "...We love you though, Jim, and want to help you get over
your hate so that you may learn to love everyone!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * "Bones! That, feels, wonderful, yes!" "It's head, Jim!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:03:18
EID:ff08 22697860
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 332260b6
* On 07-03-97 at 10:01, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "jesus needed..." in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> You have quite an imagination, giggle-boy. No mention of any 'gay-lover'
JS> JS> in John or anywhere else.
JS> RS> Oh, so who was the disciple he loved?
JS> His name was John. You have something against love?
Why was this disciple mentioned as the one "Jesus loved" in
particular, given Jesus supposedly loves us all? Why the
exemplification of this particular disciple?
And what does it say in the ORIGINAL language? Does it describe
a particularly catamitic relationship perchance? :) :)
JS> RS> Is this more of your biblical-denialism, like that of Leviticus
20?
JS> I don't deny the existance of Lev 20.
Yes you do. You deny that it applies to you, though you apply it
freely to others. Start killing faggots, Jimson, or suffer the
penalties contained at the end of Leviticus 20!
Rod "...either start doing like a Christian, or stop claiming to
be one" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Martyrdom: The only way someone becomes famous -- Shaw
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Baby in Critical Conditi
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:04:20
EID:6469 22697880
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 332260f4
* On 07-03-97 at 10:03, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Baby in Critical Conditi" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> Yeah, the Lovely Wilbur [tm] likes to read over my shoulder from
time
JS> JS> to time here, gets angry at what she terms the foolishness of the
whole
JS> JS> thing and walks away. :)
JS> RS> She's just jealous that you find me more attractive than her...
JS> Nah, she is more attractive than you.
Your mouth says one thing, but the aching of your desire tells me
something else, Jim :) :)
You want it :)
JS> RS> Rod "...I love you Jim!" Swift :)
JS> Well, thankyou, Rod. Now if you could just demonstrate this a bit in
JS> the echo...
I do all the time, so, now you can bend over :)
Rod "...I love you Jim. We all do. We want to help you out of
your sick and degenerate life/death-style" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Pro-life? Then what are you doing about TOBACCO?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You *didn't* answer this
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:09:22
EID:093a 22697920
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226222
* On 07-03-97 at 10:04, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "You *didn't* answer this" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> RS> It was a sarcastic response to your claim that Christian domestic
JS> RS> terrorism does NOT exist in the US, despite such cases as the
JS> RS> Brookline abortion clinic massacre, the reign of terror of Paul
JS> RS> Hill, the abortion clinic bombing in Atlanta, the bombing of the
JS> RS> Atlanta lesbian nightclub, the arson attack against gay and
JS> RS> lesbian establishments in Oklahoma and Arizona, etc, etc, etc.
JS> RS> No, these people all are non-Christian people who are actively
JS> RS> professing love for their fellow humans because they have
JS> RS> tolerance, rather than being domestic Christian terrorists.
JS> No these people all are non-Christian people who are actively
JS> demonstrating their hatred towards things they are not able to tolerate.
Evidence that they are non-Christian?
Oh, I thought so. Jim says so, so it must be. How about that!
Didn't they practice these acts of terror in the name of their
belief, and under the belief that their actions were holy?
Paul Hill was extolled as being a PATRIOT by many pastors in
their PULPITS right around the US. Aren't they Christian people?
JS> RS> Rod "...I offer you the chance, yet again, to answer the
JS> RS> question -- does Christian domestic terrorism exist in the US?
JS> No, it does not.
Evidence to disprove the examples that I have given? Don't just
make a claim that they are not Christians. Please demonstrate
why they are not.
JS> RS> What are you doing about it to stop it?" Swift :)
JS> It doesn't exist, therefore I am doing nothing. I do hope, however,
JS> that the perpetrators of all of the above are caught and punished
JS> severely.
So the acts didn't happen now? You are the one that claims they
are not Christians, or are false Christians. What are you doing
to deny their Christianity publicly? Where is your condemnation
of anyone who claims to be a Christian practicing such acts?
Further, where is your public education to stop these events
happening again by telling all that Christians should not be
terrorists?
Your Christian brothers expouse that these men are "Christian
Heroes". What are you doing to debunk and expose these preachers
as being hateful?
Rod "...you are doing *fuck all* to solve the problem, Jim.
You'd rather sit on your hands and say nothing, rather than
expose Pharisees. You are a joke for doing so." Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * Politics: Poly=many, Ticks=blood-sucking parasites
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:24:24
EID:131c 22697b00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 332265a8
* On 07-03-97 at 10:07, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Book Theft" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> Question: which 'half' of the population are you refering to?
JS> RS> A man is eliminated from being able to choose from half the
JS> RS> population merely because he is discriminated based upon the sex
JS> RS> of the prospective spouse.
JS> RS> Women are similarly burdened with a deliberate discrimination
JS> RS> whereby the state automatically mandates that half the population
JS> RS> CANNOT enter into a legally-binding marriage/spousal contract.
JS> Are you trying to put across that you believe half the population is
JS> gay? I look at you and laugh!
How typical for someone so erudite as you to not be able to read
a sentence and comprehend it. Some remedial comprehension is
required for you.
But so that Jimson "4th-grader" Staal can understand, Mr Cubby
will put it in really small words so you can possibly comprehend
it:
The government automatically excludes any person from
choosing a spouse from half the population. You, I, all
of us are denied the opportunity and *freedom* to choose
to marry someone from the approx. 50% of the population
who may just happen to be of the same gender.
This is discrimination. Further, this discrimination has
been proven to have no legitimate legislative end, and
further, in *two* jurisdictions now, is discriminatory on
the basis of sex.
If the state cannot prove a compelling reason to
discriminate, it must stop doing so. If it can, it must
write the laws so that the law allows as many people the
freedoms to marry that they wish, and only discriminates
where proven compelling and necessary.
The compelling state interest requirement normally means
that the state has an interest in overriding personal
freedoms that is unique and fundamentally important,
such as the physical defense of the state from foreign
attacks, the defense of the economic system of the
state, and other such overwhelming and fundamental
state interests.
Denying any man the right to marry any other man (or
denying a woman the right to marry any other woman) has
been found to be unjust, as there is no compelling state
interest that requires their freedoms to be quashed in
favour of the compelling state interest.
This is the basis of the case Baehr v Lewin (HI Supreme
Court, May 1993) and Baehr v Miike (HI 1st Circuit Court of
Appeals, December 1996) which was where the case was
remanded to be heard again to see if the state had any
compelling state interest.
The state claimed that the compelling state interest was
"parenting" and "childrearing" and that the optimal
environment for raising a child was with the biological
mother and father.
If this was a compelling state interest, the laws would
have to be amended to allow for anyone to marry anyone
else of any gender still. It would also allow the state
to invalidate any marriage where a partner in the
marriage had a child, and the married partners were not
the biological parents of the child.
Further, if the compelling interest were true, the state
would disallow single parents the right to remarry until
their child had reached the age of self-determination.
After all, they claimed child raising was a state
interest so compelling that it should override personal
freedoms.
Of course, it was not found to be a compelling state
interest.
The case is now on appeal back to the Hawaii Supreme
Court. The state cannot appeal the finding that the
law is sex discriminatory. The state cannot appeal the
finding that they have the burden of proof to prove that
there is a compelling state interest. Nor can they
appeal the need to provide a compelling (rather than
rational) state interest.
The only thing they can appeal is that the lower court
judge in December 1996 "got it wrong". I think you will
find that the appeal will fail, given that the burden
of proof was on the state, the state's witnesses all
DISAGREED with the state, and hence their side faltered.
And if the state just happens to win, well, we start a case in
yet ANOTHER state with an ERA amendment to their constitution,
and cite Baehr v Lewin as a citation.
There are many more ERA states :) California will probably be
the second state challenged if Hawaii fails.
Rod "...there, now, if you want to read both the Supreme Court
and lower court ruling, I can provide them." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * As Piglet psychosexually said, "Bounce on me too Tigger!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You *didn't* answer this
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:33:26
EID:093a 22697c20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 332267c6
* On 07-03-97 at 10:08, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "You *didn't* answer this" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> Evidence???
JS> RS> I've provided the evidence for US domestic Christian terrorism.
JS> RS> You are the one refuting it. You provide YOUR evidence to
JS> RS> disprove mine CONCLUSIVELY.
JS> I have seen no evidence of Christian terrorism. A True Christian [tm]
JS> would not do such things.
But they claim to be Christians? What are you doing to expose
these claimants to Christianity prior to their abuses? What are
you doing inside the Christian faith to remove and debunk such
critters?
The claim stands. You have failed to prove that they are NOT
Christians.
JS> RS> Please prove that Paul Hill didn't kill abortion doctors because
JS> RS> of his religious extremist beliefs, in an act of terrorism to
JS> RS> terrorise those involved with abortion.
JS> He might have, but that doesn't make it 'Christian terrorism'.
Why doesn't it? Because you claim so? He is a Christian, he
claims so. Pastors around the country claim he's a hero and a
true believer and that his actions were biblical.
What do you say to that? What are you doing to expose these
people?
JS> RS> Please provide the proof that John Salvi didn't shoot up places
JS> RS> in Brookline due to his religious beliefs, in an act of
JS> RS> horrendous terrorism against US citizens.
JS> He might have, but that doesn't make it 'Christian terrorism'.
He was a church-goer. He believes that Jesus Christ died for his
sins, and to save him. He professes that he's a follower of
Christ. Your bible claims that such a person is a Christian.
Just because he sinned and murdered a few people, doesn't
invalidate the fact he's a Christian.
You Christians claim that when someone murders, yet claims Christ
as their saviour, that they have been "converted". Why don't you
claim that such people are Christians if they get converted
*then* kill?
JS> RS> I have more examples of Christian domestic terrorism, should you
JS> RS> wish to try and disprove them. What about the terrorism of
JS> RS> the lesbian and gay community of Atlanta in the past THREE WEEKS,
JS> RS> Jim?
JS> Evidence that this was anything but an act against a particular
JS> individual? Or perhaps (as is being suggested) an act against the
JS> police?
It was an act against patrons of a gay nightclub, Jimson. You
know that. You claim to follow the news. The second bomb that
was found was aimed to attack rescue workers.
The same modus operandi was used in the abortion clinic bombings
in Atlanta. The first to kill and terrorise people at the
clinic. The second (which did detonate) to try and kill and
terrorise the rescue workers.
What cowardly Christians, to not only attempt to exact justice
(in the name of Jesus) against sinners, but against the innocent
rescue workers.
JS> RS> Are you such a moron that you can't even see these occurences are
JS> RS> religiously motivated?
JS> What has this to do with Christianity?
All the perpetrators are Christians. They were Christians prior
to the acts (they claimed that they loved Jesus with all their
heart and that Jesus died for their sins -- your bible says
that's what a Christian is), they were Christians during the
acts, and Christians after the acts.
They targetted individuals and groups of people based on the fact
that the groups they targetted were enemies of the Christian
right in the United States.
They performed domestic, Christian-inspired terrorism against
enemies of US Christianity.
It was Christian domestic terrorism.
Your unevidenced denials do not invalidate this reality and fact.
Rod "...so keep whining and keep trying to claim that they're
*false* Christians, but be warned that you are claiming the
powers of your God to do that, because only your God knows who
the Christians *really* are" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * "Bones! That, feels, wonderful, yes!" "It's head, Jim!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:42:28
EID:3b03 22697d40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 332269e4
* On 07-03-97 at 10:12, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "My Summer Weekend" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> Look around you. The evidence is plain. (Rom 1:19 NIV) since what
may
JS> JS> be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to
JS> JS> them.
JS> RS> This is circular logic. Fallacious, and hence invalidated.
JS> Only to those blinded by Satan.
No. All those who have studied a basic course in argumentative
logic will understand the illogicies of a claim that something is
true by self evidence or circular evidence.
Please independently prove your bible, and every word, as being
true, and then we may take the bible as a proof of God as being a
true premise, rather than an opinion.
You cannot, as you are trying, use the bible to prove God, and
then use God to prove the bible. This is a fallacial argument
due to the circularity of it and the lack of independent proof.
Here's another example: Star Goat exists, because the Holy Book
of Fred says so. And we know the Holy Book of Fred is the truth,
because Fred was inspired by the everpowerful and loving Star
Goat. Hence, Star Goat exists and is real and is godly!
JS> JS> (Rom 1:20 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible
JS> JS> qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly
seen,
JS> JS> being understood from what has been made, so that men are without
JS> JS> excuse.
JS> RS> This is circular logic. Fallacious, and hence invalidated.
JS> Only to those blinded by Satan.
No. All those who have studied a basic course in argumentative
logic will understand the illogicies of a claim that something is
true by self evidence or circular evidence.
Please independently prove your bible, and every word, as being
true, and then we may take the bible as a proof of God as being a
true premise, rather than an opinion.
You cannot, as you are trying, use the bible to prove God, and
then use God to prove the bible. This is a fallacial argument
due to the circularity of it and the lack of independent proof.
Here's another example: Star Goat exists, because the Holy Book
of Fred says so. And we know the Holy Book of Fred is the truth,
because Fred was inspired by the everpowerful and loving Star
Goat. Hence, Star Goat exists and is real and is godly!
JS> JS> JS> What people do behind closed doors is, in my opinion, their
biz. But
JS> JS> JS> to take what is declared wrong and say openly that
JS> JS> JS> it is right, I can't
JS> JS> JS> agree with.
JS> JS> CH> Declared wrong by whom?
JS> JS> God.
JS> RS> And in what place does God belong in a secular state's laws?
JS> This is not relevant. We were discussing my opinion.
No we weren't. We were discussing US secularly-written and
administered laws. You conveniently chopped it out, as usual. I
asked you what right Christians had to write laws to outlaw
homosexuals, and that such laws should be removed, you responded above:
JS> What people do behind closed doors is, in my opinion,
JS> their biz. But to take what is declared wrong and
JS> say openly it is right, I can't agree with.
You clearly stated that homosexuals having sex is none of your
business, but you claimed that removing laws against them would
be saying openly that homosexuality is OK, and hence you
disagreed with removing the laws.
I cannot believe you are this disingenuous, Jimson. Once again,
your lies come back to haunt you.
JS> JS> CH> And based on what standard?
JS> JS> God's
JS> RS> And in what place does God belong in a secular state's laws?
JS> See above response.
See above response. I restate -- why do you think that your
God's laws should be reflected in the laws? What right do you
claim to wish to keep and enforce sodomy laws?
JS> JS> CH> Pretty hard to get
JS> JS> CH> an atheist to take that book seriously.
JS> JS> I don't believe there are any. Just those afraid to admit His existance
JS> JS> to salve there own consciences.
JS> RS> Evidence to prove that every person who does not believe in your
JS> RS> God or *any* god are "afraid to admit His existence"?
JS> Look in the mirror and see all the evidence you need.
Firstly, your answer is wrong. Secondly, you failed to provide
any tangible, independent evidence to show that each and everyone
who does not believe in YOUR particular God is "afraid to admit
His existence"...
I offer you the chance to again put up some wacky theory and make
some benign and ignorant claim, thereby proving how stupid you
really are :) :)
Ironic really. When Jimson was asked about Christian domestic
terrorism, he claims that the perpetrators aren't *real*
Christians. I wonder... If I asked some other Christians if Jim
was a real Christian with his hateful views, I wonder if they'd
deny him being a *real* Christian?
Rod "...you're a moron Jim, but we all love you!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Yogi Bear was a nudist buddhist
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You Lose
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:50:30
EID:8496 22697e40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226bc6
* On 07-03-97 at 10:15, JIM STAAL wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "You Lose" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> No prob: 3000-4000 late term, partial-birth abortions a year
JS> JS> involving healthy mothers and healthy fetuses.
JS> JS> Source: Ron Fitzsimmons, head of the Coalition of Abortion Practitioners
JS> JS> I guess that should do it.
JS> RS> The newsbyte I saw on NBC was about 3000, of which a small number
JS> RS> had a healthy foetus *AND* a healthy mother. The overwhelming
JS> RS> majority of cases were the foetus being terribly malformed or the
JS> RS> mother's life and health being of utmost concern or BOTH.
JS> Sorry dude. I saw the man say it and his top figure was 4000.
I saw the man say it, and he said about 3000 on NBC Nightly News.
It is nice to know that you now admit that you did misquote the
guy and claim that ALL (and I'll use your 3000-4000 figure) of
them were "healthy foetuses in healthy mothers"...
It's nice to know you now admit I was right in correcting you and
stating that Mr Fitzsimmons claimed that only the *number* that
he had testified about was wrong, but the situations under which
each of these 3000-4000 (if we use your claimed figure) was
undeniably unviable foetuses or life-threatening to the mother.
BTW, I just want to remind you of something you once said,
Jimson, and why you are now no longer following it.
Back in late July, or early August 1996, you said:
___--------------------------------------------------------------------------
* On 09-08-96 at 12:26, JASON HARMON wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Re: My Summer Weekend" in echo Holysmoke:
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Richard Smith <=-
JH> JS> Folks gotta right to do to themselves what they want as long as
it
JH> JS> affects me in no way whatsoever...
JH> Remember this folks.....
___--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, in the issue of abortion, do you think that (and I've put the
explanations in brackets):
"Folks (women) gotta right (have a right) to do to
themselves what they want (to choose abort a foetus)
as long as it affects me in no way whatsoever (as
long as it does not affect Jim Staal whatsoever)".
That is, do you think that:
"Women have a right to choose to abort a foetus as
long as it does not affect Jim Staal whatsoever"?
Please, do answer honestly if you support a woman's right to
choose, especially given your broad statement of 6 months ago
that you support individual freedoms and liberties.
Rod "...yet again, your messages come back to haunt you" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't just do something!!! Stand there!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:57:34
EID:f3e8 22697f20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226d6e
* On 04-03-97 at 05:07, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KD> On (21 Feb 97) Ken Young wrote to Rod Swift...
KD> KY> I would say that you should be what you were made to be. If you
were
KD> KY> created white, stay that way. If you were made male, stay that
way.
KD> KY> And if you were made heterosexual, as we all were, stay that way.
KD> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KD> That's where you fall, Ken. You have no evidence that heterosexuality
is
KD> anything more than simply common.
Reminds me of that cute tag line for when they say that
heterosexuality is normal (i.e. correct):
"Heterosexuality isn't normal, it's just common"
Rod "...fun, eh?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Pro-life? Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 09 Mar 97 15:59:36
EID:1388 22697f60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226de8
* On 07-03-97 at 01:43, DAN CEPPA wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "jesus needed..." in echo Holysmoke:
DC> RS> "the one he loved". If it is given Jesus loves us all, then a
DC> RS> special mention about this very special relationship with a very
DC> JS> BZZZT! WRONG! Jesus is God. God clearly does _not_ love everyone.
DC> JS> (Rom 9:13 NIV) Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau
I
DC> JS> hated."
DC> Thank you for pointing out that your omni-benevolent god
DC> isn't, Jimbo. You should feel proud that you showed your
DC> god to be a bigot and a fucking son of a bitch.
Isn't it amazing how they flip-flop and go from "God is love" to
"God is hate" when required. :) :) All you need to do is know
which buttons to press or which string to pull :) :)
Hey, read my post to him where I sink his abortion argument by
claiming that he's now practicing hypocrisy based on what he
wrote 6 months ago :) :)
Rod "...praise Jesus!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Christians wanted, apply at Perth Zoo's lion cage
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:01:38
EID:6eb2 22698020
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226e62
* On 07-03-97 at 02:01, DAN CEPPA wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Staal stinks a little low" in echo Holysmoke:
DC> RS> FLORIDA -- State court removed child from lesbian
DC> RS> mother and gave custody to father. Father
DC> RS> is a convicted wife-beater and murderer.
DC> JS> Would that seem to say that a wife-beater and murderer is a better
DC> JS> role model than a lesbian???
DC> Just when I thought you couldn't sink lower than the bottom
DC> of the cesspool, you dig yourself a deeper hole.
DC> You are one big piece of shit, Staal.
The fact that he didn't answer some of the more horrendous
Christian acts of terrorism against the rights of gay people was
even more appealing than this case of bigoted intolerance.
I asked him plainly that if he had a choice of two day care
centre employees -- one a gentle, loving and kind lesbian and
one a male convicted wife beater, child beater and murderer -- which
would he choose to look after his kid.
I'm still waiting for his hypocritical response.
Rod "... you have yet another chance to answer, Jimson!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Any closet is a walk-in closet if you try hard enough
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:01:40
EID:b5dd 22698020
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226e64
* On 07-03-97 at 02:01, DAN CEPPA wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Staal stinks a little low" in echo Holysmoke:
DC> RS> FLORIDA -- State court removed child from lesbian
DC> RS> mother and gave custody to father. Father
DC> RS> is a convicted wife-beater and murderer.
DC> JS> Would that seem to say that a wife-beater and murderer is a better
DC> JS> role model than a lesbian???
DC> Just when I thought you couldn't sink lower than the bottom
DC> of the cesspool, you dig yourself a deeper hole.
DC> You are one big piece of shit, Staal.
The fact that he didn't answer some of the more horrendous
Christian acts of terrorism against the rights of gay people was
even more appealing than this case of bigoted intolerance.
I asked him plainly that if he had a choice of two day care
centre employees -- one a gentle, loving and kind lesbian and
one a male convicted wife beater, child beater and murderer -- which
would he choose to look after his kid.
I'm still waiting for his hypocritical response.
Rod "... you have yet another chance to answer, Jimson!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Any closet is a walk-in closet if you try hard enough
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Well, women?
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:02:42
EID:6f47 22698040
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226ea2
* On 06-03-97 at 09:07, RICHARD SMITH wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "Well, women?" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> JS> No, you just have this 'Fred Rice' based bug in
RS> JS> your butt about PK and have decided to pick on
RS> JS> me for it. So pick away...
RS> Have you been putting objects in Staalin's ass again? You
RS> know the rule: how can we make him go away if we keep
RS> feeding him!
ROTFL! I wonder if Jimson enjoyed it?!?! :) :)
Rod "...praise Jesus, and get thee behind Jimson" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Homophobia: the fear obvious to all but the homophobe!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Let the Count Begin!
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:03:44
EID:251c 22698060
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226ee0
* On 06-03-97 at 09:13, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Let the Count Begin!" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> RodS> Of course not, simpleton.
RS> js> I find it quite amusing that a giggly little girl such
RS> RodS> ------------------
RS> js> as yourself would call one such as I 'simpleton'. LOL!
RS> RodS> I find it amusing that you make the stereotypical
RS> RodS> assumption that "gay men" are synonymous with
RS> RodS> "effeminate men".
RS> js> Not at all. Effeminate men aren't necessarily gay
RS> js> either. (I have a good freind who is wonderfully
RS> js> effeminate and definitely _not_ gay) I called you that
RS> js> because in most of the posts from you in the past (and
RS> js> your channel utterings) even the most cutting attacks
RS> js> have a smiley faced suffix.
RS> Okay everyone, let's have an emoticon watch on Jimson for
RS> the next thirty days. If he uses any emoticon, following
RS> his reasoning [sic] here, he's a giggly little girl.
:) :) He doesn't realise my smileys are evil ones. I smile
every time I reply to him because I know I'm supplying another
gallon of paint to him so he can paint himself into a corner :)
:)
Smiley watch on!
RS> ... It is hard for thee to suck too many pricks. -- JS 1:10
Oh my, does he like to suck pricks :) :) That's our Jimson!
Rod "...hehehehee" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus saves, passes to Moses. He shoots. He scores!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Little Girly Staalin #1
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:04:46
EID:7a75 22698080
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226f1e
* On 06-03-97 at 09:18, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Little Girly Staalin #1" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> js> scary thought. :)
RS> Well, here's the first indication of Staalin's girlyhood.
RS> ... According to Jimson Staalin, emoticons -- };) -- indicate effeminacy.
He's a BIG FUCKING GIRL'S BLOUSE! :) :)
Rod "...Praise the Girly Faggot Jesus! Ole'!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Teeth : Array [1..32] of Byte;
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:06:48
EID:2bc2 226980c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226f98
* On 06-03-97 at 09:23, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "jesus needed..." in echo Holysmoke:
RS> js> BZZZT! WRONG! Jesus is God. God clearly does _not_
RS> js> love everyone.
RS> FAQ! FAQ!
I just get the darnedest quotes out of him. Forwarded to Fred
for the quote collection.
RS> js> No. You are the one speaking of them in such a manner.
RS> js> All of the things you listed (compassion, understanding,
RS> js> kindness) appear as desireable attributes in any person,
RS> js> man or woman.
RS> RodS> Yet you display none of them.
RS> js> That is not true. Ask those who know me. If they are
RS> js> honest they will tell you I do.
RS> Don't everyone speak at once.
I'm certainly shutting up. Does ANYONE like what Jimson says?
I was making the comparison in another post. Jimson claims that
the Christian domestic terrorists are not real Christians. He
uses this cop-out excuse to claim that the acts aren't Christian
domestic terrorist attacks.
I wonder what other Christians would say of Jimson if they saw
his hateful diatribe in this echo? Would they say he is "false
Christian scum(tm)"? :) :)
Maybe we should recruit some more Christians to judge Jim. Why
should we have all the fun? :) :)
Rod "...what do you think, Richard?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * And God said: E = +mv} - Ze}/r... and there *was* light!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:06:50
EID:16aa 226980c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226f9a
This message was from ROD SWIFT to RICHARD SMITH,
and was forwarded to you by ROD SWIFT.
-------------------------
* On 06-03-97 at 09:23, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "jesus needed..." in echo Holysmoke:
RS> js> BZZZT! WRONG! Jesus is God. God clearly does _not_
RS> js> love everyone.
RS> FAQ! FAQ!
I just get the darnedest quotes out of him. Forwarded to Fred
for the quote collection.
RS> js> No. You are the one speaking of them in such a manner.
RS> js> All of the things you listed (compassion, understanding,
RS> js> kindness) appear as desireable attributes in any person,
RS> js> man or woman.
RS> RodS> Yet you display none of them.
RS> js> That is not true. Ask those who know me. If they are
RS> js> honest they will tell you I do.
RS> Don't everyone speak at once.
I'm certainly shutting up. Does ANYONE like what Jimson says?
I was making the comparison in another post. Jimson claims that
the Christian domestic terrorists are not real Christians. He
uses this cop-out excuse to claim that the acts aren't Christian
domestic terrorist attacks.
I wonder what other Christians would say of Jimson if they saw
his hateful diatribe in this echo? Would they say he is "false
Christian scum(tm)"? :) :)
Maybe we should recruit some more Christians to judge Jim. Why
should we have all the fun? :) :)
Rod "...what do you think, Richard?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * And God said: E = +mv} - Ze}/r... and there *was* light!
* OLX 2.1 TD * Physicist: An atom's way of knowing about atoms!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Staalin's 2nd Girly
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:07:52
EID:a3f0 226980e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33226fd8
* On 06-03-97 at 11:42, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Staalin's 2nd Girly" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> js> A better man is what they make out of me. :)
RS> This makes the 2nd girly that Staalin has managed to achieve
RS> in this message packet. He's getting quite limp-wristed.
I wonder if he's turning faggy already?
RS> ... BZZZT! WRONG! Jesus is God. God clearly does _not_ love everyone.
- JS
Praise Jesus for Quote Files! Get thee behind Jimson, Satan! :) :)
Rod "...bend him over, Satan! :)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * That tagline is *true* ---> <--- That tagline is *false*
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Staalin's 3rd Girly
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:08:54
EID:6afc 22698100
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33227016
* On 06-03-97 at 11:43, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Staalin's 3rd Girly" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> js> They will, and I'll be there to witness it. :)
RS> Here's Staalin's 3rd girly. He'll probably begin
RS> cross-dressing now . . .
This would bring a bit of gender parity into the household. As
we all know, Wilbur already wears the PANTS in the family.
Hence, him wearing the dress will bring gender balance back to
neutral.
Rod "...praise Jesus, and ROTFL now!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Dogs crawl under gates, software crawls under Windows
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Test your knowledge
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:12:56
EID:db10 22698180
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33227108
* On 08-03-97 at 22:48, ROD SWIFT wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Test your knowledge" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> As I promised. The US Federal Bureau of Prisons sent me data on
RS> religious affiliation at time of prison entry for all prisoners in
RS> Federal prisons.
RS> This was in response to a Christian claiming that he thought that US
RS> prison populations consisted of of about 0.5% Christians, and the rest
RS> were godless atheists and heretics.
I meant to write that this was in response to a Christian on IRC
claiming that... hehehehe :)
RS> Now, I'm going to run a little quiz, if anyone would like to play.
You have 96,968 prisoners total to divide among the following groups:
Adventists
American Indians
Atheists
Baha'i
Buddhists
Catholic
Church of Christ
Hindu
Jehovah's Witness
Jewish
Krishna
Moorish
Mormons
Muslims
Nation (?)
Orthodox
Pentecostal
Protestant
Rasta
Santeria
Scientology
Sikh
No Preference 13,878
Unknown 4,503
I've given you the statistics that 13,878 of the prisoners did not
give a religious preference, and 4,503 prisoners were unknwon.
That should leave you with about 80,000 to spread across the above
groups.
RS> Post your guesses here. I'll post the actual figures on 21 March.
RS> You will be surprised by the results.
If you want to netmail me your responses, fine, so that you don't
give away any secrets or hints from your answer to anyone else :)
Rod "...I wonder if Jimson and Ken will post a guess? I hope
so!" Swift. :) :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Homophobia: the fear obvious to all but the homophobe!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Re: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:16:58
EID:f974 22698200
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 332271fa
* On 06-03-97 at 13:32, KEN WIENS wrote to JASON HARMON,
on the topic of "Re: Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KW> JH>That's advertising a political philosophy. And what do you
KW> JH>mean by "pro gay agenda"? Wanting to be treated like normal
KW> JH>people? Not telling gays that they're perverts and doomed for
KW> JH>all eternity?
KW> Wanting to be treated like normal people would be part of
------------------
KW> it. Not telling gays that they're perverts and doomed for
KW> eternity would not be part of it. The Bible says those who
KW> practice homosexual acts as a lifestyle are doomed for
KW> eternity. But it also says those who practice heterosexual
KW> sex outside of marriage as a lifestyle are also. Hey, the
KW> fundy God is an "equal opportunity God."
So you, Ken, assume gays aren't "normal" i.e. well-adjusted?
Or were you being statistic in your outlook?
Rod "...btw, welcome back. Hope your hard drive crashes soon! :)
:)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Nuke a gay Jesus for the baby whales
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: [1/3] Cheese Whiz
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:21:00
EID:980a 226982a0
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 332272ec
* On 07-03-97 at 07:57, JIM STAAL wrote to DAVID WORRELL,
on the topic of "[1/3] Cheese Whiz" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> DW> Fitzsimmons told Nightline that the procedure "is a form of
JS> DW> killing... You're ending a life." `
JS> DW> I wonder just who it was that stuck Fitzsimmon's head up his ass?
JS> Sounds to me like the man finally got a conscience.
Will you get a conscience, and get out of the lives and rights of
women, given your statement back in July/August last year that
you believed that:
JS> Folks gotta right to do to themselves what they want as long as it
JS> affects me in no way whatsoever...
For your reference, the posting quoting your words, and warning
us to be wary of you and to remember them:
===========================================================================
BBS: The Perth Omen
Date: 09-08-96 (12:26) Number: 1037
From: JASON HARMON Refer#: NONE
To: ALL Recvd: NO
Subj: Re: My Summer Weekend Conf: (16) Holysmoke
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Richard Smith <=-
JS> Folks gotta right to do to themselves what they want as long as it
JS> affects me in no way whatsoever...
Remember this folks.....
... Watch out where the huskies go and don't you eat that yellow snow.
___ Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
* Origin: [The Dark Corner] Still Spitting 'Fire' (1:3652/1)
___------------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Fundamentalism: Fund=give $$$, Amentalism=without brain
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Baby in Critical Conditi
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:23:02
EID:bf06 226982e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33227366
* On 07-03-97 at 02:45, DAN CEPPA wrote to DAVID WORRELL,
on the topic of "Baby in Critical Conditio" in echo Holysmoke:
DC> ... "El O'him: God is an Irish Mexican." J.j. Hitt
No no no! If Jesus is JEWISH, why does he have a SPANISH name? :) :)
Rod "...that's what I want to know!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Anti-women, anti-gay -- born again bigot, go away!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: [1/3] Cheese Whiz
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:26:04
EID:86d9 22698340
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3322741c
* On 07-03-97 at 00:17, DAVE HAMILTON wrote to DAVID WORRELL,
on the topic of "[1/3] Cheese Whiz" in echo Holysmoke:
DH> DW> I wonder just who it was that stuck Fitzsimmon's head up his ass?
DH> I still don't consider this verified for healthy mothers and fullterm
DH> babies.
DH> Hopefully, some facts will surface.
Well, Jimson was doing the spindoctoring on the claim. All
Fitzsimmon's said was that he lied about the number of abortions
carried out late-term. Jimson made the claim that they were
healthy foetuses inside healthy mothers. This claim was false.
Rod "...anyway, about 3000-4000 late-term abortions in the US per
annum of non-viable foetuses or to save the mother is about
right. In WA, we have about 350 per annum, for a population of
about 1.2 million people" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Famous graffitti: Please don't write on the -- oops!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: David Rice
|Sub: James Makes Things Up
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:30:06
EID:cb29 226983c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3322750e
* On 06-03-97 at 16:56, DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "James Makes Things Up" in echo Holysmoke:
DR> >MB> Gimme numbers. I want REAL numbers from the Department of
DR> >MB> Health, not some fundy number made up by somebody who is
DR> >MB> hysterical about even one of the procedures.
DR> JS> No prob: 3000-4000 late term, partial-birth abortions a
DR> JS> year involving healthy mothers and healthy fetuses.
DR> JS> Source: Ron Fitzsimmons, head of the Coalition of Abortion
DR> JS> Practitioners I guess that should do it.
DR> Do you really expect people to take your word for it?! If so,
DR> you're even more ignorant than Appletoon.
See, this is the lie. He claimed 3000-4000 late term,
PARTIAL-BIRTH abortions a year involving HEALTHY MOTHERS AND
HEALTHY FOETUSES.
The newsbyte I got was that only the number was lied about.
Jimson spindoctored the claim into being 3000-4000 "children
being murdered" by adding the claim that each of the 3000-4000
abortions was of a healthy foetus in a healthy mother.
BTW, I remind you of what Jimson said back in July/August last
year:
JS> Folks gotta right to do to themselves what they want as long as it
JS> affects me in no way whatsoever...
Call him on it. Abortion does not affect him whatsoever. He is
pro-choice, and admitted so last year :)
Rod "...even if the foetus IS viable and the mother healthy, he's
PRO-CHOICE by that statement last year, or, if he does not
support it, is a HYPOCRITE" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Know God, know problems. No God, no problems!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:36:08
EID:6002 22698480
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 33227678
* On 06-03-97 at 17:04, KEN WIENS wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "Oops, Caught Again" in echo Holysmoke:
KW> I've even thought of becoming self-employed doing this kind
KW> of work. My eye doctor said the man who services his
KW> wifes computer has more than full time work doing just
KW> that. But beg? No way. Not as long as I have any ability
KW> to make money on my own. I find that an undecidedly
KW> unchristian thing to do.
KW> cc: Jim Staal
Did you know Jim Staal begs for money on this echo?
Is Jim Staal false Christian scum(tm)?
BTW, are the people who bomb abortion clinics and gay
nightclubs for their Christianity, in your view,
domestic Christian terrorists? What are you doing to stop
these terrorists?
Rod "...and honest answers, please, or your hard drive will die
again because Jesus will judge you" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Any closet is a walk-in closet if you try hard enough
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 09 Mar 97 16:36:10
EID:c45c 22698480
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3322767a
This message was from ROD SWIFT to KEN WIENS,
and was forwarded to you by ROD SWIFT.
-------------------------
* On 06-03-97 at 17:04, KEN WIENS wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "Oops, Caught Again" in echo Holysmoke:
KW> I've even thought of becoming self-employed doing this kind
KW> of work. My eye doctor said the man who services his
KW> wifes computer has more than full time work doing just
KW> that. But beg? No way. Not as long as I have any ability
KW> to make money on my own. I find that an undecidedly
KW> unchristian thing to do.
KW> cc: Jim Staal
Did you know Jim Staal begs for money on this echo?
Is Jim Staal false Christian scum(tm)?
BTW, are the people who bomb abortion clinics and gay
nightclubs for their Christianity, in your view,
domestic Christian terrorists? What are you doing to stop
these terrorists?
Rod "...and honest answers, please, or your hard drive will die
again because Jesus will judge you" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Any closet is a walk-in closet if you try hard enough
* OLX 2.1 TD * Yogi Bear was a nudist buddhist
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 10 Mar 97 14:49:00
EID:b598 226a7620
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 332465ac
-> On 06 Mar 97 08:15:02, Ken Wiens got back to Jason Harmon
DC>Gee, Kenny, you drop back in here after a long absence
DC>and don't even take the time to say 'hi' to me.
Oh hell, Danny, give a guy a break. Well, ok, hello
attcha.
KW>the Book of Mormon or the Koran are factual. Well, perhaps
KW>most of us. What can I say, I'm a FUNDY!!"
DC>No, Kenny, you are a fucking fundy asshole, and I mean that
DC>sincerely.
I think you say that just to impress the other doubters
in this crowd. You know, peer pressure. You don't strike
me as one of those who'd have an original thought in his
head more than once in twenty years.
DC>How many 12 year old rape victims did you execute during
DC>your sabbatical?
How many babies who would have had normal human lives
otherwise did you abort during my sabbatical?
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Mercifully free of the ravages of intelligence.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 103/550 500 2 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 10 Mar 97 15:25:02
EID:3653 226a7b20
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33246e1e
KW>What can I say, I'm a FUNDY!!
RC>Here you can say whatever you please, Ken. Enjoy the
RC>freedom. Oh, and welcome back.
Thanks. Yes, this place is unique. It is the only BBS
Conference I know of where a body can say anything they
want except misquote someone else.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Beware of all enterprises requiring new clothes.-Thoreau
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: No Good Things
|Date: 10 Mar 97 15:26:04
EID:8172 226a7b40
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33246e5c
KW>Well, I'll be damned!
RC>Join the club.
Whoops! I didn't quite mean it that way. If
my mom had heard me say that I would've had
my mouth washed out with soap.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * You are a Redneck if you ever lost a tooth opening a beer
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 10 Mar 97 15:29:06
EID:25b3 226a7ba0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33246f12
MG>Babies are totally innocent. Why do any of them need to go
MG>to hell?
JS>None are innocent. All suffer the effects of original sin.
JS>Romans 3:23.
RC>Children do not bear the sins of their parents.
RC>Ezekiel, chapter 18.
KW>Perhaps you should also try reading other parts of the Bible.
KW>Ezekiel is speaking of the guilt of the father's sin never
KW>being held against the sons. Moses, on the other hand,
KW>in Exodus 20:5 has in view the consequences of the fathers sins.
RC>And so you believe in a god that burns babies in hell as
RC>a consequence of other people's actions? Do you follow the
RC>same unethical code?
Nope. I don't believe any babies burn in hell, period. I
do believe that the fathers sins all too often have an
affect on their sons. A father comes home drunk every
night. That has an affect on the family. This is especially
so if he happens to be violent when drunk. You get the
drift.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * What saith the Scripture?
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Lunatic buttfucks
|Date: 10 Mar 97 15:32:08
EID:9267 226a7c00
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33246fc8
JS> I do know that Jesus Christ promised, approximately 2,000
JS> years ago that He would return...and He will. Trust me.
RC>While you're waiting, would you be interested in buying a bridge?
KW> 2 Pet 3:3-9
KW> 3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come
RC>And how many more thousands of years do these "days" last?
That only God knows fur sure. Me? I think it will come very
shortly judging by what has been happening in Israel the latter
half of this century. For the first time in 2000 years Israel
is a Nation again. As Zechariah prophesied would obtain during
the end times Israel has become a "cup of trembling" to the
nations, a real major problem, a gigantic pain in the butt.
For that reason I don't think it'll be much longer. But I
could be wrong.
KW>9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness,
RC>Perhaps he doesn't want to run any cosmic red lights in a rush to
RC>meet the thirty millenium delivery time guarantee. Go right ahead
RC>and wait for the imaginary pizza, Ken. Pie in the sky when you die.
Only He knows when He is coming. That He is coming you can take
to the bank.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * He's not a dog! He's a "Canine-American!"
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 10 Mar 97 15:42:10
EID:b598 226a7d40
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33247222
DC>How many 12 year old rape victims did you execute during
DC>your sabbatical?
As is typical you liberals have to distort the truth to
make your view look good. To begin with most abortions
are not a result of someone getting raped. I'm quite
sure of that. I'd wager a majority of abortions are a
result of some teenager getting pregnant fooling around
with her boyfriend. At any rate, what justification is
there for making the unborn child die because someone
had illicit sex? That should be called murder, pure and
simple. The only time an abortion should be justified is
to save the life of the mother. But to those who think
life is cheap killing an unborn child means nothing.
Those who do so other than for the reason above should
be considered murderers and pay the consequences. So
don't be bandying about totally stupid and ridiculous
distortions of the truth like you do above. All you do
is make yourself look just as stupid and ridiculous.
DC>... They were HOMOS! God was justified to kill them.
DC> per Ken Weins
To begin with you spell my name wrong. Secondly, you
claim I said something I never said. I thought that
was forbidden in this Conference.
To set the record straight. I think there will be
HOMOS in heaven. Why? Because being a HOMO (whether
one is born one or one by choice) does not send
one to heaven or hell. It is living a lifestyle
where one regularly engages in such acts without
stopping the practice and repenting that will
send one to hell. Learn to distinguish the
difference. The New Testament says those who
engage in such acts as a regular lifestyle will
not see the Kingdom of Heaven, not those who
happen to be HOMO. Being born with the inclination
is not going to send anyone to hell. Just as
being born with an inclination toward illicit
sex will not send someone to hell either. I'm
not sure you will comprehend any of this. But
I had to try.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * And that's the way it is--Walter Cronkite
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: J.J. Needs To Be
|Date: 11 Mar 97 07:58:12
EID:6cec 226b3f40
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 332556e4
>My God can do and has done something about evil: He sent
>His Son, Jesus Christ, to defeat Satan, by dying on the
>cross at Calvary to be the perfect
FR>Gee. Just like Mithra 380 years before the Jesus mythos.
FR>Looks like another god beat yours to the punch, dear.
Not hardly. As Dr. Ronald H. Nash observes:
"Allegations of an early Christian dependence on
Mithraism have been rejected on many grounds. Mithraism
had no concept of the death and resurrection of its
god and no place for any concept of rebirth-at least
during its early stages. Whereas other mystery cults
had a cyclical notion of life=death-rebirth based on
the vegetation cycle, the Mithraic view of history
was linear, not cyclical. During the early stages of
the cult, the notion of rebirth would have been foreign
to its basic outlook. If rebirth appears at all in the
cult, it was a late addition...Perhaps the most important
argument against an early Christian dependence on
Mithraism is the fact that the timing is all wrong. The
flowering of Mithraism occured after the close of the
New Testament canon, too late for it to have influenced
the development of first-century Christianity." page
147 of "Christianity & the Hellenistic World" by
Ronald H. Nash. Zondervan Publishing House. Grand
Rapids, Michigan. 1984.
FR>Might I suggest you learn the origins of the Jesus myths?
I strongly suggest you learn something substantive and
scholarly about the subject first.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * >>O<< >>O<< Bugs... What Bugs? >>O<< >>O<<
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: Lunatic Buttfucks
|Date: 11 Mar 97 09:04:00
EID:3136 226b4880
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33256650
-=> Quoting Ken Wiens to Robert Curry <=-
KW>3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will
KW>come with {their} mocking, following after their own lusts,
KW>4and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For {ever}
KW>since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was
KW>from the beginning of creation."
RH>See, there were reasonable people even back then.
Yes. One will find reasonable people in nearly every
age of history. But those who think they are the most
reasonable are not always so.
KW>5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by
KW>the word of God {the} heavens existed long ago and {the} earth
KW>was formed out of water and by water,
KW>6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded
KW>with water.
KW>7But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved
KW>for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly
KW>men.
KW>8But do not let this one {fact} escape your notice, beloved, that
KW>with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years
KW>as one day.
KW>9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness,
KW>but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for
KW>all to come to repentance.
KW>(NAS)
RH>But the fundies were no smarter then either. All of the above is
RH>non sequiter.
I can see why you'd say this of the second part of the above
citation. But "all of the above?" As to fundies being no
smarter then than now. Well, whether one is fundy or not
does not determine level of intelligence or even level of
education. There are nut cases in any group, believers and
non-believers. There are those who are smart and dumb
among believers and non-believers. IMV, the smarter ones
are the ones who do believe and the dumber ones the ones
who do not.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Home is where the computer is plugged in X
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 11 Mar 97 09:07:02
EID:2a74 226b48e0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33256706
JS>I do the same thing. :) There are so many totally computer
JS>illiterates out there who have a new Win95 based machine,
JS>but have no clue about it. Or those who wish to upgrade and
JS>haven't any idea how or what to do.
KW>But beg? No way. Not as long as I have any ability
KW>to make money on my own. I find that an undecidedly
KW>unchristian thing to do.
JS>We agree. So...uh...cut me some slack, dude, and don't give
JS>a thought to jumping on Judith's bandwagon getting down on
JS>Jim Staal, ok? :)
Ok. Thanks for filling me in on the details from your
side of the fence.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Shi'ite happens!
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 11 Mar 97 09:12:04
EID:2a74 226b4980
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33256834
KW>I was laid off of a job I had for 8 years Nov. 18. The timing
KW>was rather odd. I had just come off of Workman's Comp due to
KW>carpal tunnel release surgery on both my hands during the
KW>summer.
JS>Had the same problem (surgery did nothing to relieve the
JS>problem) after 28 years at the same job. (two years ago)
Surgery seems to have helped in my case to a certain
extent. Before the surgery I could type for a few minutes
and both hands would go numb. Now I do not have the numbness
problem. But I do still have tingling intermittently. The
doctor released me after nearly six months to go back to
work with no restrictions but there still being disability
factors involved. I still experience pretty severe inflammation
at times. He said that if symptoms return in eight months then
he would put definite restrictions on my typing. So, we'll
see. The insurance company handling the claim tell us we
will be receiving a settlement offer. But if we accept that
that closes the case and I can no longer make any claims
based on that injury.
Do you have an email internet account? We can talk via
email if you do. Mine is at the bottom of all my messages.
Let me know.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Bill Clinton - unsafe at any speed.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 11 Mar 97 09:14:06
EID:eb18 226b49c0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 332568ae
JS>On (06 Mar 97) Ken Wiens wrote to Robert Curry...
JS>None are innocent. All suffer the effects of original sin.
JS>Romans 3:23.
RC>Perhaps you might try reading other parts of that bible you thu
RC>Jimbo. Or have you decided that Ezekiel chapter 18 is not reall
RC>part of your bible?
KW>Perhaps you should also try reading other parts of the Bible.
KW>Ezekiel is speaking of the guilt of the father's sin never
KW>being held against the sons. Moses, on the other hand,
KW>in Exodus 20:5 has in view the consequences of the fathers
KW>sins. Psalm 51:5 says that even from birth man is polluted
KW>with sin. Psalm 58:3 confirms the same, as does Ephesians
KW>2:3 and many other passages. Take your own advice. Read
KW>the Bible thoroughly on this subject. Get yourself a good,
KW>comprehensive concordence and trace the topic thru the
KW>Bible.
RC>Even better than babbling bible verses, try thinking for
RC>a change.
KW>Add to thinking thorough study of your subject before
KW>commenting on it.
JS>An excellent response.
Thanks. The hard nosed sceptics in this Conference have
a tendency to play fast and loose with the biblical
text, biblical history, and history in general. When I
see this happening I do what I can to head them off at
the pass. And they accuse of the fundies of being
brain dead and dumb. Sheesh!
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Bill Clinton suffers from delusions of competence.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: J.J. Needs To Be
|Date: 11 Mar 97 09:18:08
EID:43e4 226b4a40
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 332569a0
-> On 07 Mar 97 10:28:02, Ken Wiens got back to Darryl Gonzalez
DG>H-I-S-T-O-R-Y. It's called HISTORY. And there are several
KW>Well, yes. But you don't have to spend much time in this
KW>Conference to realize that historical evidence has no
KW>effect whatsoever on the extremists here. Their minds,
DC>That's were you are very wrong, Kenny. After all, it is
DC>history that you said you wanted to execute 12 yr old girls
DC>that were raped my their father.
Thanks for proving me right once again. I never said I
wanted to execute anyone. I did say that those who
willfully abort their unborn children except to save
the mother should be tried in a court of law and if
found guilty executed. That is history. And as you
can see it is radically different than your mangled
attempt at relating history. Thanks again for proving
my point. You are one of the worst offenders here in
this respect anyway.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * The world can't end today - it's tomorrow in Australia!!!
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: My Bear and Computers
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:58:10
EID:e832 226b6740
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33259d32
KW>Now, if one of you who know something about computers could
KW>just explain to me how that man can destroy a good system
KW>installing Norton Utilities, I would appreciate it. As it is,
KW>I'm just trying to stay calm, and remind myself that the
KW>occasional computer is a small price to pay for a man so
KW>wonderful in so many other ways.
Hmmm...A bear totalling your computer? I just visited your
www site today and saw the picture of you two together. He
looks to be very friendly, easy to get along with, and with
the best of intentions.
I dunno. I've installed Norton Utilities on all of my
computers from the earliest version down to the present
version. I never had it do that to my computer. The worst
that has happened is a conflict with some other utility
that was running in memory at the same time as one of
the Norton applets.
KW>(Score to date since Jan 1--the pent three times, the 486 twice,
KW>and his mother's elderly 286 once)
If possible you might have someone else do the job next time
around. The track record you cite above doesn't sound too
good.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Make headlines! Use a corduroy pillow.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Profanity 01
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:07:12
EID:dcc2 226b68e0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33259f50
RV>Perhaps you should find a male to set it up for you.
RV>[ dam if doesn't get a pie, nothing will ]
KW>It wouldn't have, as a male did set up the BBS, and most of my
KW>troubles with my home system are caused by another male's
KW>habit of creatively killing the computer.
RV>Yes i know. Sounds like my hub. When it starts working as it
RV>should. He just has to play around, then it's screwup again
RV>for a few weeks.
KW>Will bought the board from another gentleman about a year
KW>ago--and he's still learning the software. And, being male,
KW>he's had to play with it .
Well, yes, we males do generally have that problem with the
computer. My wife is always chiding me about this very
problem. "Why don't you leave it alone once it is working
correctly and why do you always have to get upgrades of
this that and the other thing?" I'll admit, I've crashed
my system a good number of times as a result of tinkering
with the Windows 95 Registry. Its just that it is so
dang interesting and fun to tinker with. But I've got a
tape backup unit now I keep up to date so if anything goes
haywire with the software I can restore from backup.
Problems as a result of tinkering with the hardware is
another matter.
I do have an excuse for the screwups: I learn something
useful each time. Still, my wife is not impressed.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * He's a few Beta's short of a full release...
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Dork
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:22:14
EID:aa9b 226b6ac0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 3325a2d6
KW>It does make you wonder about just what it is that
KW>he's married to.
RS>Are we talking Wilbur Complex here?
KW>Well, the descriptions that these fundies tend to give of
KW>their partner are, well, colorful at the least and down right
KW>scary in many cases.
Ok. I'll try to prove the exception to the general rule.
I've been married nearly 23 years. My wife's name is
Evelyn. I call her Evy. Half her ancestry is from
Norway the other half from England. She is blond and
blue eyed and not a pound overweight. She is also very
bright and highly educated. She graduated both from
high school and college summa cum laude. If she has a
fault it is that she is too perfectionist. She majored
in Language Arts with an emphasis on Hellenistic Greek.
Later she earned her ART certificate (I forget exactly
what that stands for execepting that it qualifies her
to run a Medical Records Department). She did this while
working full time and helping to raise our two children.
She is quite an achiever.
She tends to be shy around strangers but always more
than ready to help someone who asks for help in any
way. She is very friendly. Once in awhile that Viking
blood in her boils up and I'm usually the recipient
of the forthcoming wrath (deserving most of the time).
She made employee of the month at the hospital she
works at a few months ago. She has been there since
1981. She has complained about another lady at work
who is always broadcasting the fact she is a christian
while at the same time cheating every day on her
time card. My wife and some other ladies confronted
her and reported her cheating to the boss finally.
So, she has a strong sense of moral right and wrong.
What else can I say? I hope this somewhat breaks
the pattern you allude to above.
KW>We've got one married to a Wilber, another who's married to
KW>a blow up doll, and the occasional Maria Russell wandering
KW>through to remind us that such oddities do really exist.
I don't doubt this. I've certainly met some of them over
the years.
KW>But for all of their 'xtianity', they also can't seem to
KW>resist following Lynda around begging her to spank them. . .
KW>much to Lynda's bemusement.
You know, I followed the link from your Web site to
Lynda's Web site this morning...I almost sent her
an email letting her know how naughty I'd been
today. (bg)
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * A flying buttress short of a cathedral.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Reading Incomprehensi
|Date: 12 Mar 97 09:09:00
EID:9289 226c4920
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 3326b8fc
-> On 08 Mar 97 06:22:02, Ken Wiens got back to Rod Swift
KW>heaven. The New Testament repeatedly states the christian
KW>is not under the OT Law or bound by that Law. The Law was
DC>Bullshit, Kenny. Your "godling" Jesus said that he "came not
DC>to change one dot or tittle of the law."
He was correct. He fulfilled that Law 100% too. He was
the first and only One able to do so.
DC>Your dogma does not come from your godling but by the true
DC>founder of your religion, Saul.
Odd, then, that Peter and James and the others also agree
with Paul at the Jerusalem Council as detailed in Acts 15.
The founder of my religion is Jesus Christ Himself. You've
decided to follow some modern myth about the founding of
Christianity. And that is all it is, a silly myth.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: CorUnum * Fountain Valley, CA * 714/531-7255 (1:103/550)
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: David Rice
|Sub: alignment list
|Date: 12 Mar 97 09:11:02
EID:1f4c 226c4960
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 3326b976
-=> Quoting Ken Wiens to Katherine Wintersnight <=-
KW>It seems to be quite a complete list. However, my
KW>last name was spelled wrong. It is "Wiens", not
KW>"Weins." It is a common misspelling. Ok, I'll go
KW>back and hide under my bed now. Thank You.
DR>Several months ago you posted a "quote" here in this echo
DR>concerning gun regulation that you attributed to President
DR>William Clinton. When I pointed out the fact that it was
DR>Adolph Hitler that actually made the quote, you again
DR>attributed it to Clinton. After my second refutation you,
DR>without a blush, finally attributed it to Hitler--- and
DR>not one peep did you utter to explain your two previous
DR>blatent lies.
DR>Are you ever going to explain why you lied, or will you
DR>continue to hide and hope everyone forgets you lied?
I do remember a discussion about Hitler. I do not remember
any discussion about gun regulation. That part is a
figment of your imagination unless you or anyone else
on this Conference can reproduce the evidence from my
messages.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * The name is Baud....., James Baud.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Ken Is a Liar
|Date: 12 Mar 97 09:14:04
EID:193b 226c49c0
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 3326ba2c
-=> Quoting Ken Wiens to Darryl Gonzalez <=-
DR>Hi liar. Have you attributed an Hitler quotes to Clinton
DR>yet today?
Until you can reproduce the exact quotes from my
messages to this effect you are and remain the
only liar in this situation. Are you ready and
able to do so liar?
KW> Well, yes. But you don't have to spend much time in
KW> this Conference to realize that historical evidence
KW> has no effect whatsoever on the extremists here.
KW> Their minds, such as is left of them, are pretty
KW> much gone when it comes to sifting, much less
KW> comprehending anything of a historical nature.
KW> Evidence to them is anything that physically
KW> smacks them hard in the nose. Anything less
KW> goes way over their heads.
DR>You fail to take account of the fact that you Fundy moron
DR>luanatics =REFUSE= to present this "evidence" or yours.
DR>All you're good for is sillyassed assertions.
Thank you for reinforcing and proving my above comments
true by means of your erudite ramblings that follow.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * My other CPU is a dual Pentium Pro 200
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 12 Mar 97 09:16:06
EID:0979 226c4a00
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 3326baa6
-=> Quoting Ken Wiens <=-
KW> What can I say, I'm a FUNDY!!
DR>You can also say that Clinton gave Hitler's speaches
DR>for him, like you did previously.
Until you produce my exact quotes to this effect
you are nothing but a liar. Are you able to do
this liar? If not you alone remain the liar.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * clinton Defense #15: Hey - I just do what the wife says!
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 12 Mar 97 14:59:08
EID:6903 226c7760
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33270b0c
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Ken Young <=-
DR>This morning on the local KYMS (fundy) radio there was an
DR>"ex-homosexual" guest speaker. I rushed to the phone and
DR>managed to be the first caller-iner of the show. I told
DR>them that I am an "ex-negro, but now, praise god, I'm
DR>white." They hung up on me and said over the air that I
DR>was "obviously disturbed."
They were obviously correct. That station is local for
me too. What they understood and you don't comprehend
is that there could be such a thing as one who formerly
engaged in homosexual acts but does no longer.
DR>I wonder if they took the hint.
As far as they were concerned there was no hint. Your
ignorant comments were much too blatant.
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * "I am an ex-negro..." David Rice
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Wiens
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Lunatic buttfucks
|Date: 12 Mar 97 15:02:10
EID:ad4d 226c7840
MSGID: 1:103/550.0 33270bc2
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Ken Wiens <=-
DR>The subject line looks like a Fredric solection. :-)
JS>I do know that Jesus Christ promised,
JS>approximately 2,000 years ago that He[sic]
JS>would return... and He[sic] will. Trust me.
DR>Jesus Christ didn't make that promiss: Jesus did.
DR>He also said he would return in that generation.
DR>Ooops!
If you read the immediate context you'd notice
he was referring to the generation that would
be alive at the time of his generation. The
demonstrative pronoun is very prominent in
the original Greek preceding the term
"generation." The "Ooops!" is all yours
this time, Bucko!
Ken Wiens
=kwiens@earthlink.net
___
* WR 1.33 # 618 * If it's too loud, you're too old.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Dork
|Date: 11 Mar 97 17:14:38
EID:5f56 226b89c0
MSGID: 1:207/212 62f3f7cc
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org b26a4b28
On (08 Mar 97) Katherine Wintersnight wrote to Karen Davis...
KW> Be patient, it takes time. The only ones that I've been given are
KW> wither as part of a group deal, or as part of an experiment on the
KW> sexual suggestiveness of nicks with a 'cat' motif.
Hehe I'll wait.
... David Duke - A Nazi in Conservative Clothing!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Moin Hallo Hi
|Date: 11 Mar 97 17:15:27
EID:7e9a 226b89e0
MSGID: 1:207/212 2552fd72
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3321ea9c
On (08 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Karen Davis...
DC> It's getting better. I got a reply today from the
DC> school councilor. Se has determined that "every day
DC> to day activities" take precident over the part of the
DC> decree that notes "MAJOR DECISIONS". It took over
DC> 10 days to get the reply back to me.
DC> Her carbons where to the Principal, Superintendant and my
DC> ex. Mine will be to the first 2 plus the State School
DC> Commissioner and the Legal Department.
What is the specific problem?
KD> Interestingly, as I mentioned on IRC yesterday, I stop being a teacher
KD> in 33 days.
DC> Damn!
No, I'm not all that great, Dan. I work my tail off to get nowhere.
KD> I received a private sector job offer with an internet
KD> provider that I couldn't turn down.
DC> I can understand that. I had my 9th grade math teacher take
DC> the same route. What I can't understand is why those that
DC> can teach can't make a decent living by doing what they can
DC> do best. (Sorry, it's not my intention to give you a guilt
DC> trip. It's just my view of this society.)
It *is* a decent living at 31K for a first year teacher, but it's just
not for me.
DC> As it is, it's that very same figure. I messed with those days
DC> and deterimined that school lasts for only eight months, with
DC> all in that time frame weekends free. I don't remember that
DC> much time off when I was in grade school. The summer vacation
DC> started about the middle of June and ended just after the 1st
DC> weekend in August. And, the only long break was between xmass and
DC> New Years.
You forget Easter.
... Apathy error: Don't bother striking any key.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: infinitesimals
|Date: 11 Mar 97 08:51:55
EID:74ac 226b4660
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 db974419
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 3322ce94
On 09 Mar 97, David Worrell wrote:
DW> 06 Mar 97 21:20, John Brawley wrote to Lynda Bustilloz:
JB> A dimensionless point is still a THING.
DW> And therein lies your entire problem.
Therein is a core precept. The 'entire' problem centers on what may be
considered "real" and what may not. In that sense, you're right.
It remains inescapably (if metaphysically) true that a dimensionless
point is more of a THING than NO thing at all....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... I'm sorry -- my karma ran over your dogma.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 11 Mar 97 09:13:10
EID:8c6e 226b49a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 1a55adc1
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 3322d372
On 09 Mar 97, David Worrell wrote:
DW> 03 Mar 97 09:48, John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
DW> DW>> And *any* distance greater than zero, when dealing with the
DW> DW>> "coalescence" of dimensionless points, might as well be several
DW> DW>> parsecs.
JB> Perceptive of you.
JB> Now find a way to _phrase_that_ in some standard math format.
DW> dmin=0+
Cute. Robert? That make sense to you?
DW> DW>> What part of "dimensionless" are you having trouble
DW> DW>> understanding?
JB> I ain't _me_ having that trouble, obviously.
DW> "IS NOT!" again, John? I see you've been hanging around Appleton too
DW> long.
I'd have to agree. Been 'hanging around' creationists in general too
long. Wasted lots of time thereby. (But found out all their ludicrous
arguments, so if knowledge for knowledge's sake is worthwhile, it was
useful, and now I can detect a cretinist sophistry without hardly
thinkin' about it.)
I just feel, in much the same sense, that I have been hangin' around
"dimensionless" for so long now that I _don't_ have trouble
understanding it.
DW> JB>> geotopological, that he said he was too busy to discuss.
DW> DW>> I'm sure it was, John.
JB> Oh, I strongly doubt _that_.
JB> His letters to me are in _my_ files, not in yours.
DW> I'm sure they are, John.
Glad to hear it. Your possible facetiousness notwithstanding.
I have no reason to lie.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Religion is Science without its glasses.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: infinitesimals
|Date: 11 Mar 97 09:17:49
EID:74ac 226b4a20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 6c03c51e
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 3322d39c
On 09 Mar 97, David Worrell wrote:
DW> 03 Mar 97 09:58, John Brawley wrote to David Worrell:
DW> DW>> Thanks for allowing me to take credit for another flyby.
JB> You missed the concept in the first place. A dimensionless point is
a
JB> 'thing' --a nonzero item.
DW> No, John. It is a concept. Thanks for playing, though.
I see. You do not consider a concept, compared to nothing at all, to be
more a thing than nothing at all? OK, you may leave the game; you
forgot to bring your equipment anyway.
(But before you do, recall that a concept has a physical analogue:
patterns of neurons firing in the brain.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
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... Tagline: "Tag! You're it!"
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Quantum crackpot brawley
|Date: 11 Mar 97 09:20:59
EID:78f2 226b4a80
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 82b54794
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b6793
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> See _Infinitesimal Analysis_ by Abraham Robinson.
RC> Or _On Numbers and Games_ by John Conway.
JB> I note that neither of these are in the Washington University
JB> library (which means, since that library is the most extensive
JB> within reach of my interlibrary loan system, I probably cannot
JB> get them).
RC> It means nothing of the sort. You didn't even _ask_ your librarian
RC> about this, did you?
Robert, I have computer access to every card catalogue in town, (St,
Louis), including both major Universities. Do you suggest that these
books would NOT be listed in the schools' library online _card_
_catalogues_???
My local (county; small branch) librarians are so used to me using the
interlibrary loan system to drag off-the-wall specialized books outta
downtown and the Universities that they supply me with interlibrary loan
request forms for me to take _home_ and fill out when I need to.
Don't for a minute think I don't know what I'm doing. The SysOp of my
host system is one of the librarians for the University of Missouri. If
I could get them easily, I would have them by now.
IOW, there isn't any librarian to _ask_, without me driving down there
and doing _exactly_ the same damn thing physically (and getting myself
asked if I'm a student or not, thus running into 'restrictions')....
Only if there are books NOT LISTED in the computer database, would
physically going downtown (fifty miles or so) produce anything other
than the online catalogues would. (These were also not in the St. Louis
County library system, but then, neither were most of the others by
those authors.)
(It's interesting: I _cannot_ take any of those books off-campus
physically; and some they won't even check out to me in person, but
there seems to be no problem _sending_ them to me via the interlibrary
loan system.... Fascinating anomaly, and I would surely not do
_anything_ to disturb it. (*grin*))
I have _never_failed_ to find a somewhat obscure book at one of the
University libraries before. That is, in fact, how I had to get
Conway's _Sphere_Packings,_Lattices_and_Groups_, since the "public
library" just does not carry it, or indeed, carry a decent percentage of
the off-the-wall books I ask for.
Now, are you telling me that those two are _so_obscure_ that the
Washington University Olin library would either 1) not have them listed
in the online catalogue or 2) have them sequestered away under lock and
key as 'rare books' accessible only through the human librarian? (??!)
(I don't for a _minute_ believe Wash. U.'s library is not up-to-date, or
that _every_book_ (older than, say, a few months) it has is not in the
online catalogue. It's the SAME catalogue that students and professors
use at the terminals physically inside the library building.)
Now revise your comment, please, or provide me with the name of an
interconnected _national_ interlibrary loan system participant library
in which you _know_ those two books are located. There are ways (not
_easy_ ways, but ways) to get books sent across state lines that way,
and I can perhaps pull in a favor or two....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Faith is not an excuse for ignorance.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: death by whining
|Date: 11 Mar 97 14:28:25
EID:500e 226b7380
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 fc48236d
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> I daresay that compared to you, most first graders are "wise
RC> and superior mathematical experts," John.
RC> JB>> (*sigh*) Never cease overstating cases, do you?
RC> I meant it seriously and literally. I know first graders who
JB> Then, despite your protestations to the contrary, you're
JB> even LESS even-minded, MORE egotistical, than me.
RC> Ah, this is this first I've heard of my "protestations to the
RC> contrary." Would you be kind enough to share them with me? :-)
Ooops. I forgot: you haven't claimed NOT to be an egomaniac, have
you.... Never mind.
RC> including a better grasp of adding and subtracting on a number
RC> line.
JB> Robert, I _grasp_ your zero-block-containing number line just
JB> _fine_.
RC> Then allow me to rephrase: I know first graders who can and do
RC> better _demonstrate_ their grasp of mathematical basics than you
RC> do here, including a better demonstration of their ability to
RC> conceptualize adding and subtracting on a number line.
I wrote one to Lynda (Bustilloz) suggesting that instead of handing her
three-year-old the blocks one-by-one, she lay them in a line on the
floor and ask the kid to count them, _including_ a non-block space, and
see if it made any sense to the kid. She hasn't answered yet....
(It's impossible to count blocks, starting ON some block and passing
through the zero point, and get the right answer iff there IS a "block
called 'zero'" in the line.)
To wit:
B B B B B ['zero'] B B B B B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
(*Not!*)
What whole integer equals the number of blocks between -5 and +5?
It sure as hell ain't _eleven_.
[-5,+5] =/= 11.
JB> Moreover, I need to understand why it seems to be the case
JB> that I can't map a discrete math onto a continuous one without
JB> "losing information."
RC> It's becoming clear that you parrot people (this time, Chris Hughes).
I didn't "parrot" him; I _quoted_ him.
(And you didn't offer any clarifications, I see....)
RC> JB>> Sure! "I disseminate mathematical misinformation."
RC> Congratulations. To admit that you have a problem is the most
RC> important step in learning to overcome it.
JB> See the quotes?
JB> I was asked to say something.
JB> I said it.
RC> So if someone pulls your string, you turn into a Liar Appleton?
If someone pulls my string over and over again, like a dog worrying a
bone, I can get fed up and hand him what he asked for merely to get him
off my back, yes. It'd have been a "lie" if I _hadn't_ put it in
quotes. As it was, it was merely evasion.
RC> Now that's pretty pathetic. At least you did manage to tell the
RC> truth while so carefully distancing yourself from it.
(*grin*) "The truth" is oft a relative thing....
"Disseminating" and "exploring" or "discussing" are not the same thing.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Your logic is flawed; evacuate your premises immediately.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: !
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:00:14
EID:60b4 226b5000
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 1e3d70e9
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b6796
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> RC>> So who was it that hated you enough to suggest Berlinski?
RC> JB>> I saw a blurb in _Science_News_, which I trust, and bought it.
RC> So you fall for ads, but balk at doing a little research at a
RC> library.
JB> You don't respect _Science_News_ enough to suppose it doesn't
JB> print frivolous ads?
RC> Do you know the difference between a paid advertisement and a book
RC> review, John?
Do you know how to answer a clear question? Did you miss seeing the
word "ads" in my sentence?
JB> I take responsibility for _everything_ I do.
RC> You hide it well.
It's nobody's business but my own.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... When all think alike, then no one is thinking.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: counting on a number line
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:04:22
EID:9e0d 226b5080
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 0dc97915
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b6798
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> In my experience playing math games with dozens of children,
RC> none have ever had any trouble with this very intuitive
RC> notion, John. Think of the number blocks being drawn on a
RC> sidewalk in chalk, with kids standing in any integer's box,
RC> then counting their steps to any other box. It works every
RC> time.
JB> It works, of course.
RC> Earlier, you said it didn't. Glad to see some small improvement
RC> in your comprehension.
I never said it didn't work _AT_ALL_. I've merely been arguing that it
is less intuitive, inherently inconsistent, _unnecessary_ in some cases,
and productive of _wrong_answers_ in others.
I note, for example, that in your example above, you didn't say these
kids drew "a zero block," nor does my mental image of kids drawing
blocksets to step around in produce the thought that any of the blocks
they draw would "naturally" have a ZERO in one of them. As noted, I'm
not familiar with that game, (it isn't hopscotch), but I'll bet you if
we went out and found kids still playing your game there, we'd not find
any with "0" chalk-written in any of the squares. (Excepting, perhaps,
some computer-literate gradeschool where kids NOW draw a zero in as
well. But I doub they ever did when we were kids. I never saw ANY
blocks on the sidewalk, drawn by ANY kid I knew, that had a "0" in one
of them.)
(I suspect you're talkin' through yer hat, but since I'm not familiar
with the specific game you have in mind, I have to give you the benefit
of the doubt.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
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--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: cash only
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:13:01
EID:6c71 226b51a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 9323a988
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b679f
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
JB> Gad, man; do you give my black marbles/white marbles analogy
JB> _zero_ credit?
RC> What exactly do you want credit for? You have provided so many
RC> illustrations of your inanity that this one does not stand out
RC> for any particular reason.
Thought not. You wouldn't admit a counterexample even if it existed.
You don't admit _that_ one, anyway. How Fundie of you.
JB> How monomaniacal _can_ you be?
RC> Monomaniacal enough to discuss math with virtually anyone.
A "monomaniathematician?"
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... It's probably Probability....
--- PPoint 2.00
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: a clue
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:15:29
EID:8d0c 226b51e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 f0d6852f
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b67a0
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
JB> The _sole_ comment I have ever received from _anyone_, that
JB> even remotely approached the concept-underpinnings I need,
JB> was your "space of one dimension" definition of a "point."
RC> Ahem. Zero dimensional. And it's hardly "my" definition.
Excuse me. I stand corrected. It's still the best one yet, but it does
not imply noncoalescence, unfortunately.
JB> some of which are perhaps even more mathematically rigorous
JB> than you,
RC> Really? Please name these kindred souls.
I'd suggest Peter Diehr.... Darryl Gregorash appears to be outta the
loop these days. There are a coupla more, whose names escape me at the
moment but who'd probably pop to a really interesting math problem in
physics (which of course of the two of us only you could offer).
JB> strongly suggests that my above opinion was not _unwarranted_.
RC> Actually, it suggests that if you want results, I'm the best person
RC> to provide them for you. After all, you did remark that no one else
RC> has even come close.
If I want results, WHY on earth would I prefer someone from whom getting
results is worse than pulling teeth?
(*chuckle*)
RC> Is there a clue lurking somewhere in there for you?
You betcha: you're as, if not more, egotistical about your specialized
monomania than I am about mine.
It's not worth it, Robert, to try to explain a specific need that my
concept-structure requires, only to find that I can't get any help
without some insult attached....
Besides, I think you've exhausted your range as far as math is
concerned: you've noted that while some math-language is available to
use on my 'Tetrahedraverse,' _justifying_ its axioms is outside the
purview of (the) math. If that's so, then I'm no better off than I was
before, except in the small matter of having a few new and subtly
different ways to say what I've been saying for years anyway (for which
few, I thank you).
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: .
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:29:03
EID:64f4 226b53a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 c617b25b
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b67a1
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
JB> I bet I'm more "amenable to reason" than, say, Laurie Appleton.
JB> (*chuckle*)
RC> There have been times when you led me to question that.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. It's hard to tell with perfect
reliability when someone is playing intellectual games or exploring
possibilities of thought, and when he's actually a mind-twisted idiot.
Appleton fights hardware scientific evidences.
I hassle dogmatic mathematic precepts, which are abstracts, ideas,
concepts, not found in Nature as hardware realities. (Nature doesn't
create math; man creates math, and then tries to map it back onto Nature
(with occasionally astonishing success).
Nature _does_ create the hardware evidences that so disturb the
Appletons and Morrises and Gishes of the world as to cause them to run
and try to hide in the pages of their cherished religious texts.
If we had begun in my home, looking at my physical model, and had been
comfortable and well-fed, we might have produced a whole lot less heat
and somewhat more light. Although the arguments might have been
similar, I daresay we each might have had more respect for the other
than we have displayed here.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... WARNING! Evolution may be hazardous to your Ego.
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* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: blunder redux
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:38:21
EID:86ca 226b54c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 39c60449
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b67a2
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> JB>> about "the smallest possible number greater than zero,"
RC> Why are you falsely labeling that as an exact quote, John, when
JB> Pardon me. I assume incorrectly that you are capable of telling
RC> If they are just your own interpretation, a rephrasing in your own
RC> words, it is incorrect to place them in *quotes*, John.
It is incorrect to place them in *double* quotes, Robert.
For that I apologize.
RC> I see that it is your own interpretation, and not Berlinski, which
RC> led you to the mistake about thinking infinitesimals to be discrete.
RC> So are you _finally_ accepting responsibility for that blunder?
Wrong "blunder." I still think of infinitesimals as inherently
DISCRETE, Robert. Depending on how it's phrased, "an" or "one"
"infinitesimal" remains a very discrete-sounding thing. If I have to
find another word than "infinitesimal" to apply to the clear and obvious
concept in mind (because the Priests have appropriated that one), then I
will. To me, an infinitesimal is a discrete component of infinity; it
is, in a way, the minimum amount of thingness (only ZERO or NONE or
NOTHING is lesser than it) from which, by multiplyign it endlessly,
"infinity" is approached.
What you refer to is me interpreting Berlinski to have presented the
situation between discrete and continuous early on, expecting to find
him amplifying along those lines, and him not doing so.
JB> Especially since you have the book with you.
RC> That did help me distinguish your worse-than-Appleton "quote" from
RC> the real thing, yes.
mmphf.
RC> Let me know when you decide to give up being an ignoramus
RC> maintaining an ignorant position.
JB> Let _me_ know when you get off your high horse.
RC> Math is my hobby horse, John, and I'll be riding for a lifetime.
Off into the sunset, riding a mythical beast? Sounds like fun.
Not for me, though; I prefer reality.
RC> The ignorant position at issue, btw, is your earlier insistance
RC> that infinitesimals are all supposedly discrete. Remember?
I note slight modification, by means of here inclusion of word "all?"
I would 'remember,' had you NOT used that particular modifier....
I _don't_ remember ever insisting that ALL "infinitesimals" were
discrete; I do remember insisting that infinitesimals were discrete. I
still think so. I also think the concept is ill-defined, and have been
trying to get it pinned down better.
For example, your phrasing "a space of no dimension" as a definition of
ONE point (the only one in existence), qualifies as an "infinitesimal"
AS WELL AS as "infinity" at the same time, and while useful at the
infinitesimal end of that, IF we then posit an infinity of them, it does
not make them discrete without a separation or noncoalescence axiom.
If we DO have a noncoalescence axiom ('property,'...whatever), and the
points remain truly _dimensionless_ (zero dimensions each), then each
individual point qualifies as _an_infinitesimal_ --a discrete,
nonsubdividable minimum amount of 'thingness,' less than which cannot
'exist' without becoming that impossible-to-become "No Thing At All."
Topologically speaking, it is intuitively obvious ('trivially obvious?')
that a single discrete point is indeed 'a' perfectly legitimate
INFINITESIMAL. It is NOT (yet?) a NUMBER, so it needs not suffer from
_that_ particular, calculus-induced, schizophrenic confusion.
(*chuckle*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: complaints
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:33:05
EID:717c 226b5c20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 dc048215
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b67a3
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
CH> Is that set of points which makes up a line countably or
CH> uncountably infinite,
JB> I'm still having trouble getting a clear definition of these
JB> two types of infinite.
RC> Nothing could be simpler:
(a)
RC> A denumerable (or "countable") infinite number is equal to the
RC> number of integers.
(b)
RC> A nondenumerable (or "uncountable) infinite number is any that
RC> is larger than the above.
(separating elucidation from definition):
RC> A denumerable infinity is the smallest
RC> cardinal infinite number -- the others are all larger.
All right, let's see how "simple" this is:
By paragraph (a), we get the idea that the integers extend into
infinity, thus they are "countable," while at the same time being
in practice not "countable" (no one, given anything less than an
infinite amount of time, could "count" them in a common-sense way).
I that a fair statement? That is, the integers are in principle
'countable' (since there is no integer NOT included in "infinity"), but
they are not in any 'real' sense capable of _being_counted_?
By paragraph (b), we get the idea that despite having established an
infinity of integers, there must be some infinity "larger than" that?
Now, how do we differentiate the meaning of the first statement, from
the meaning of the second, OTHER THAN the vague and indistinct manner of
speakin in which the second paragraph seems to say: "whatever the first
paragraph says, this paragraph is about something 'bigger'?"
Now, lastly, and in specific application to the number of points in
Tetrahedraverse, there is a problem: BOTH paragraphs seem to apply.
That is, the number of 'individualized' (monadlike) points in the
interior volume circumscribed by the shell is NOT "infinite." It is
perhaps larger than any number, but by definition it is only part of the
total number of points. Yet, unfortunately for definition, there is a
set of 'almost'-points ("wannabe points") in the spherical shell itself,
each of which is NOT individualized --not a "true point." That set is
the remainder of an _infinite_ set of points.
But which "infinite" is meant?
The total points in the set T are partly in subinfinite subset A, those
points with individual integrity, and partly in _infinite_ subset B,
those points which are _potential_, but not actual as individual points.
Yet by definition, set T contains all points that can ever BE in any
sense whatever. It is a "closed infinite set." In a metaphysical
sense; it is _infinite_ but part of it is not now nor can it ever be
"actualized." (One cannot "empty infinity.")
Question: does the idea that set B's points NOT being individualized
entities place that set in paragraph (b)'s area, or in paragraph (a)'s?
It is difficult to decide, for those points in set A can be said to
represent integers (a point IS, or IS NOT; there is no 'fraction of a
piont' possible), and the number of them is very very large, but it is
obviously not an _infinite_ set of integer-points. (Aside: how does one
find a mathematical function that maps the integers onto a set of
NONmathematical points?)
Yet, those points in set B are 'infinite'---MINUS the number of points
which, having once come from it, are now not within it. That is, the
set B (points still unmanifested as such) seems to be in paragraph (b)'s
area.
Now, is it legitimately possible to describe a set of abstract points,
soem of which are "more really points" than others, as being BOTH
countably and uncountably infinite? Set T containing subsets A and B,
one of which is countable, and not infinite, the other of which is both
countably (some points have been _subtracted_ from it) AND uncountably
(it does not map directly to integers, and is not exhaustible) infinite?
'Point' of all this: the claim was made that T-verse requires a decision
as to its countable or uncountable infinity of points, the additional
claim was made that the definitions of the two was 'simple,' and my
attempt to apply either to T-verse, to deal with the first and seek the
application of the second, seems doomed to failure from T-verse's
primary precepts.
Any help? Any thoughts? Anyone who can tell me, taking the three sets
of T-verse (one overset; two subsets) into account, whether T-verse's
full set of points is "countably" or "uncountably" infinite?
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Its a dogma-eat-dogma world!
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: CE
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:04:12
EID:e488 226b6080
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 c3639e09
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b67a6
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> JB>> [Jan.---Dec.][Jan.---Dec.][Jan.---Dec.][Jan.---Dec.]
RC> JB>> 2BCE 1BCE 1CE 2CE
RH> FWIW, I agree with the above too. That IS the way they are
RH> numbered. [...] The first year of the CE should have been 0CE.
JB> (*Cackle*) Diehard.
RC> You layed an egg that doubles as an automobile battery?
I was yolking.
JB> "Mathematics" it ain't. It's _blocks_. _Labels_ on chunks
JB> (of time).
RC> Would you like to see a series of blocks representing labels on
RC> yearlong chucks of time, John? Quite easy to do _with_ zero.
Let's see it. You know I'll stomp it if possible....
I have re-parsed your offer. Never mind; even _I_ can add a "zero" to
my above. I cannot, however, add a YEAR-LONG _block_ labelled either
"0BCE" or "0CE" to it. To wit:
[Jan.---Dec.][Jan.---Dec.]^[Jan.---Dec.][Jan.---Dec.]
2BCE 1BCE ^ 1CE 2CE
^
0
Zero (no width, NOT a 'year long.')
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... "Who is this who darkens council with words without knowledge?" Job
38
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:12:33
EID:fff3 226b6180
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e3f8f90c
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33220bbf
On 09 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
-> On 06 Mar 97 17:59:04, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> However, in a generic sense, it's as illogical to DISbelieve (in a
JB> "God" or gods) as it is to Believe. Neither position can be proven
or
DC> Do you disbelieve in Santa Claus, John? If so, why?
JB> Santa Claus is not a god?
DC> That explains the bewilderment in you eyes when you have
DC> been told that Zero _is_ a number.
It ain't no God, that's fer sure, albeit some in here seem to treat it
like one.... ;)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Science without Religion is lame... --Einstein
--- PPoint 2.00
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:13:15
EID:fff3 226b61a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 428aa624
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33220c47
On 09 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
JB> I see no par-TIC-u-lars, Dan, ol' boy....
JB> All I see here is a Fundie "Is NOT!"
JB> Next time, quote my argument, and refute it where we can SEE you.
DC> I'll provdide the milk crates for you to stand on. Just
DC> how many do you require?
One. (I can't stand on a "zero crate" anyway.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... GOVERN.SYS corrupted; reboot the suckers out? (Y/N)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:14:08
EID:fff3 226b61c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 474faa6e
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33220ca1
On 09 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
-> On 06 Mar 97 18:02:24, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
JB> There is no zero block, Dan, just as there is no 'zero year,' 'zero
JB> minute,' or 'zero hour.'
DC> Keep saying that, John. Even you will believe that if you
DC> say that long enough.
I already do.
My task is to disapprise all you poor misled fools of the contrary.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename"...
--- PPoint 2.00
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Ceppa - Holographic
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:15:09
EID:d680 226b61e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 8101c847
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3322cdea
On 09 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
JB> Thanks for _your_ honesty as well. I had already fast-deleted the
DC> That's because I'm an atheist and don't need to misquote to
DC> make my point, like Appleton does.
No shit. Appleton and all the rest of his ilk, apparently.
JB> sentence, so instead of re-doing the message, I _wrote_ 'in the
JB> previous comment' (or something like that) instead, to be sure I
DC> Too bad you didn't do that.
I _fully_ agree. I will try not to make that mistake next time I feel
like being overpersnickety.
JB> didn't engender confusion. I obviously failed. I apologize for not
JB> doing it baldly in the first place, but:
DC> The hair treatments you've been getting haven't taken root?
(Hair treatments.... Egad) So far, my hair's hangin' in there. The
fact that its an unusual color helps.... (Comment stands with or
without the double-speke.)
JB> The remarkable thing to _me_ was that D. Worrell quoted the entire
JB> message back, as asked, _with_ your misuse in it where it first
DC> No he didn't, John. He replied to what you quoted. Nothing
DC> more, nothing less.
He did that _first_, then when asked, he provided the part I had NOT
quoted, but HAD referred to. I can't imagine why he did that unless he
didn't mind being shown wrong, and the last comment he made did not seem
to indicate _that_....
So, why's this bitching coming from from you _now_? The sequence ran:
1) You wrote; 2) I wrote; 3) Worrell defended you; 4) I complained he
didn't include the whole original message; 5) He complied; 6) I pointed
out that the 'your' error was clearly in there, and that my comment had
referred to that; 7) you bitched; 8) I bitched back; 9) you both
admitted that it WAS there, and bitch some more _now_; 10) Worrell says
nothing..... (*grin*)
Let's forget it. If you had not made that comment about the "English
major," I would not have pointed out those two English and one
definitional errors. I tend NOT to pin down people on their incorrect
grammar and usage unless something points to it. (If I did that, I'd be
even busier than I am now....)
JB> appeared, and then he -still- accused me of being wrong about your
JB> previous use of "your" for "you're" even when it was staring him in
JB> the face....
DC> I saw the quote that he commented on, written by you. I did
DC> not make that mistake in that particular posting. Perhaps now
DC> others will understand the whys and wherefores of Appleton's
DC> lies.
Perhaps someone should send you the copy of your own original message?
Perhaps also, you might not again ADMIT an error and then try to retract
the admission? You're waffling like an Appleton pinned down in an
error. Never even mind that the errors were both _common_ and
_irrelevant_ to the thread....
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: John-boy's x=1
|Date: 11 Mar 97 14:07:20
EID:52dd 226b70e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 659e1d7c
REPLY: 1:3603/210 455b6797
On 09 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> So use a discrete metric that takes on the nonnegative
RC> integers as possible values, and the answer is exactly one.
RC> That will provide you with a perfectly good solution, John.
JB> (*sigh*) Have done.
RC> And when, more or less, did that change occur?
Inherent in the concept, from the first. The T-verse points are
equivalent topogically to integers mathematically. By analogy, the
_minimum_ increments of "distance" between them, since they are globally
identical, are similarly seen as "one increment of distance."
I just don't see that it's a "perfectly" good solution, since I can't
predict what 'mathematical' problems might crop up later by virtue of
writing it in stone....
JB> Not the problem. I want to _justify_the_axioms_themselves_.
RC> Not a math problem.
I suspected as much, said so, and got argued with. (*grin*)
RC> While I can certainly produce for you many of the tools from
RC> standard math (that you are unaware of) in finding a suitable
RC> model and axioms to fit, any motivational or "justification"
RC> issues are for you to deal with if you wish to obsess over them.
All previous unpleasantnesses between us, perceived or actual, aside,
thank you for what little help you _have_ provided.
IMHO, anyone daring to "start from scratch" in this way, will find
himself "obsessing" over his fundamental precepts. Without them, he's
merely clawing air, and he knows it.
RC> Now if you later have concerns about proving this solution
RC> is unique (that there can be no other logical possibilities),
RC> that's a more involved and difficult matter. Nonetheless,
RC> I have provided what you asked for: the math.
Thank you. Speaking is one thing, and less important than the above
goal (proving that the solution, or in this case the manifold --the
naked network of vertex order twelve) IS unique, is the single most
important thing that can be done with it.
IOW, "later" is NOW.
JB> You state the problem closely, but "later" is not the time
JB> for that. It's "out of sequence" to do it that way. "Precept
JB> must be upon precept."
RC> Demonstrations of existence always come before demonstrations of
RC> uniqueness. How could you prove something is unique before even
RC> proving it exists, after all?
The "origin sequence" ('from' [NoThing]) provides the logical
inevitability that the thing 'exists.' As you note, 'proving' that to
others --with English language arguments since you agree that task is
"not a math problem"-- that that is the case is quite another matter.
RC> "Out of sequence?"
RC> Please tell me again how you are not suffering from excessive egotism.
"I am not suffering from excessive egotism."
(*grin*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... This message was written using 100% recycled electrons.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Black lipstick
|Date: 10 Mar 97 13:20:00
EID:471f 226a6a80
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org 2be57e56
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Norman Solomon <=-
Hi Rod
RS> * On 17-02-97 at 16:27, NORMAN SOLOMON wrote to ROD SWIFT,
RS> on the topic of "Black lipstick" in echo Holysmoke:
NS> NS> Despite Rod's invitation to join the "lets blame the
NS> NS> Christers" you remain your own person, and speak as
NS> NS> you find, rather than adopt what passes for
NS> NS> a warped version of "PC" by some posters in this echo.
NS> RS> Strange. I clearly laid blame at the Republicans, and the
NS> RS> fundamentalist religious political extremists Christians for
NS> RS> which they puppet...er...stand for :)
NS> I only took it the way Domino had, so maybe it was not as clear as you
NS> intended it to be. Sorry :-(
RS> Way Domino had taken what?
Blame the Chista's
NS> RS> I have an in-principle statement of belief that says that I will
NS> RS> call religious fundamentalist political extremist bigots
NS> RS> "Christians" so that real Christians finally have some guts to
NS> RS> stand up and take back Christianity from those who are hijacking
NS> RS> it. I'm sorry if it offends you, but it's not me that is causing
NS> RS> the offense, just the realisation of it :)
NS> No offense taken, I am my own person. Thanks for making your views
clear,
NS> and I agree that Christianity seems to be hijacked over there.
RS> Over where? I'm not in the USA :)
Sorry Rod, my mistake, you are a "3" I will get then hang of this sooner
or
later.
NS> RS> Besides killing people and oppression of rights?
NS> These questions come to mind.
NS> If you were able to remove all Christians would this then stop?
RS> No. We should remove killers and oppressors... Many of them
RS> would be Christian.
Agreed, and some claim to be Christians.
NS> Did these things exist in the pre-christian world?
RS> Not to the extended prevalence to which they exist now.
RS> But eliminating all people who seek to oppress others will solve
RS> this problem.
I'm not sure things are so much worse these days than say in the time of
Nero, but I think we are much better informed by modern media, which can
make it seem that way.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: worst danger
|Date: 10 Mar 97 13:40:00
EID:b9fd 226a6d00
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org d193a08d
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Norman Solomon <=-
Hi Robert
NS> Religion has always been the worst danger faceing mankind,
NS> when God is removed from it and replaced by what the
NS> pastor, dogma, peer groups etc. says.
RC> Without the pastor, dogma, and peer groups, what exactly is left
RC> of any god aside from individual make believe?
Well if all one has left is "individual make believe" after removing all
the above, you had less than nothing to begin with.
Speaking personally, having removed all of the above from my life, faith
in God remains. I don't really understand exactly, why or how that is,
it just is.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Dyslexia
|Date: 10 Mar 97 14:05:00
EID:9d3c 226a70a0
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org 4a576faf
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Norman Solomon <=-
Hi Sue
NS> Thanks for your informative reply, I will ask my sysop about this,
NS> I have been hearing rumblings that there is a system where I
NS> speak it types.
SA> I haven't heard much about the voice activated stuff, but I am
SA> not a computer "geek". The program that the person I know uses is
SA> called ShareSpell, which is a shareware program that is reasonably
SA> priced. The distribution name (from what I can find) is SS30.zip, but
SA> I don't know if there is a more recent version or not. It even looks
SA> as if you can get a British dictionary with it...;)
My sysop is sorting out a spellchecker for me, all I have to do now is
figure out how to download it :)
NS> Would you care to comment on the proposed revised "sig file" I
NS> posted to Richard some momnets ago.
SA> Amusing, but I am not sure if it would be any more useful...
Glad you thought it was a good grin.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Dyslexia
|Date: 10 Mar 97 14:10:00
EID:ff49 226a7140
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org c6ca69e6
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Norman Solomon <=-
NS>Thanks for your understanding, my objective in Fidoland was originally
NS>to investigate other peoples faith systems, (did I pick the wrong echo
NS>or what)
KW> I maintain a list of who's what in this echo. I repost it on the
KW> first of the month, or you can look at it at
KW> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3158/cast.html
I don't have Internet access as yet, but I have read your most recent
posting, and thanks for taking the trouble for doing it you are a star.
NS>I have stuck with Holysmoke as the information I am getting on the
NS>"Christian scene" over there has blown me away. I am convinced the
NS>information I am getting is true, my only doubts are the extent.
KW> You might find Fred Rice's web site to be useful to your research.
KW> The URL for The Skeptic Tank is http://www.stbbs.com/personal/frice/
:( must get this Internet thing sorted.
NS>I would love to hear how Christian doctrane has become so corupted, I
NS>think it as though they are so insecure in their beliefs they do not
NS>dare to hear any conflicting views. I welcome them and see them as
NS>viable alternatives. But where you are I suspect that is unbelievable
NS>to you as Christians shooting doctors is here.
KW>
KW> Lynda Bustilloz maintains a listing of the monthly 'hot topics' in
KW> this echo at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/hot.htm This web
KW> page contains links to documents pertaining to one side or another of
KW> the 'big' fights of the moment.
Well Lynda is someone I have grown to respect, from her postings. Bet she
does a great job of it too.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Fundy Frolics
|Date: 10 Mar 97 14:26:00
EID:311e 226a7340
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org bdf4bfb0
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Norman Solomon <=-
Hi Don
DM> Norman Solomon said "Fundy Frolics" to Don Martin, adding:
NS> I lived in the US for a while back in the late '70's, I was not a
NS> Christian at the time, and the only thing out of the ordinary I noticed
NS> was being given "the gospel" through the car window whilst the
NS> windsheild was washed. I just thought the chap was a bit odd, but I
NS> did'nt feel threatened.
DM> Try doing something he didn't like when he had his mob handy:
DM> getting your windshield washed does not cut it for more vigorous
DM> forms of religious correction. Had you been an out-of-the-closet
DM> gay, for instance, that gospel could well have come wrapped around a
DM> brick a block or so from the place of business.
NS> Tell me this would be breaking your national laws, and that they are
NS> punished for such acts.
DM> Of course it is, but such people are hard to catch, and when the
DM> police are good Christian boys who don't like faggots either, they
DM> do not look very hard. In fact, it may be dangerous for the victim
DM> to complain.
Yes I forgetting the share size and diversity of the US, must be awfull
not feeling protected by the law.
DM> I notice that your responses to what I have to say tend to go
DM> into what the Christians "should" do. I could wish you would tell
DM> _them_ that; I already know what they _should_ do according to their
Have no fear I will take every chance I get, and one hopes they read the
posts I make to you and others.
DM> stated principals, as does every WOA on this echo (many of whom have
DM> been horribly abused sexually, physically, and psychologically by
DM> Christians as children and spouses, and aren't having any more,
DM> thank you).
That would be the last thing I would wish to add to, but it adds greatly
to my understanding.
DM> This is interesting to me in that it seems to evidence the value
DM> of an established church: you appear to possess an inbred set of
DM> expectations for Christian behavior as social beings to the point of
DM> having difficulty understanding what it is like in a society where
DM> no such norms are in place. Our separation of church and state works
Yes it's all quite a culture shock, it's all so "in your face"
DM> out to our pretty much keeping our hands off any behavior, no matter
DM> how goofy, so long as it has a religious context. Someone here
DM> recently pointed out that killing a child in the course of an
DM> attempted exorcism is likely to result in no more than 6 months
DM> probation, while killing the same child in a secular context results
DM> in much stronger penalties. On your side, I would expect that the
DM> exorcism would not count for so much as a mitigating circumstance.
The context would make no difference here, they would get life. They
might plead incanity, in which case it's life in a mental institution.
NS> Nothing even close to what you describe above is happening here in
NS> England AFAIK.
DM> _Your_ fundies appear to worship soccer.
NS> Not any more, the drug problem is getting out of hand here, and crime
NS> on property, and muggins are on the increase to feed their habbits.
DM>
DM> With soccer, I was thinking of the events where fans go wild in
DM> the stands and beat selected members of the opposition to death.
Sorry I missunderstood, the soccer fan problem seems to have vanished
and little is heard about these days.
DM> Later, you say to Dan Ceppa:
DC> Provide evidence that your god exists and you can discuss it. ITM,
NS> Sadley that you can only do for yourself. But you go on to suggest
NS> that the topic cannot be discused without this "evidence", I think it
NS> can don't you?
DM> Sure, the same way Hamlet, Huckleberry Finn, and Lady Bracknell
DM> may be discussed. Anyone attempting to propose Hamlet, Huckleberry
DM> Finn, Lady Bracknell, et al. as some sort of basis of ethical
DM> conduct needs first to establish them as something more than
DM> fictions.
NS> I'm not sure that any of the above would come out with a moral
NS> framework that any of us would be capable of swallowing as good. But
NS> society does need boundaries, which need to be internalised with
NS> individuals. When and if we become good citizens, selfless which will
NS> mean making sacrafices it can get better.
DM> It makes no difference whether or not any fictional character is
DM> a pattern of the Good: the point is that when one is _proposed_ as
DM> such a model, it had better be more than a fictional character. And
DM> it is the responsibility of the proposer to extablish that
DM> distinction.
I'm not sure I can agree with you here, the role model is either good or
bad, or somewhere inbetween, eveidence of existance or not as the case may
be I would see as immaterial.
NS> The big thing as an echo you could do is to cut out the anti-chriatian
NS> flaming from word one with new people test some out a bit more you
NS> may as a result get people on the inside to take back your hijacked
NS> Christianity. Otherwise you will send people with enquiring minds out
NS> thinking you are the worst bunch, who invent lies, and some do come
up
NS> with some whoppers in here.
DM> And people with enquiring minds do well to lurk silently for a
DM> while on this or any echo before proclaiming their stand if they
DM> wish to avoid flak. Most of the WOAs here, I daresay, are perfectly
DM> respectful people in real life, acquiescing to the run-of-the-mill
DM> bullying by organized Christians as a cost of doing business in
DM> these our United States. HolySmoke is our rec room where we have the
DM> freedom to be honest (and to invent our own fantasies) that we do
DM> not have outside. So far, I have not seen any WOA whoppers that
DM> match the assertion that mankind invented leukemia, but doubtless
DM> you have some examples in mind. Quite frankly we do not much care
DM> _what_ Christians think of us here: that is their problem and not
DM> ours.
Yes that's very good advice, and I am begining to find the richness within
this echo. I am just suprised, and a little saddened that I feel more
identified with the WOA than the Christians. But I am determined to remain
true to myself.
NS> Where I find christians who are getting it wrong I will tell them so
NS> with = vigour to anybody else that does. Great debate comes from all
NS> wrong posts being chalanged, partyzan debates just polarise and
NS> no one gives any ground.
DM> Ah, you suppose this to be a debate. It is not, though it
DM> sometimes resembles one. It is a recreation for those of us who
DM> injoy it and apparently a cause for those of us wishing to promote
DM> an agenda. Yuh pays yer money and yuh takes yer chances. Personally,
That explains a lot, ta.
DM> I enjoy exposing bigots to ridicule: it often seems to be the first
DM> time in their lives that they have had any responses to their
DM> bullshit but the nodding of heads in agreement, and their reactions
Yes I am coming to the same conclusion, they seem to suffer from a form
of intellectual incest, nothing they think of believe seems to be personal
experience, more akin in fact to "mob rule".
DM> are often quite amusing. With any luck, the experience might even
DM> make them think, but that is more than dare I hope for here. I do
DM> hope that the spectacle might induce thought in those in the
DM> gallery, though.
Well it has caused me to think, and change my views somewhat. For example
I had never considered before how unfair the law is to gay relationships.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Bias
|Date: 10 Mar 97 15:11:00
EID:647a 226a7960
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org f23afefe
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Norman Solomon <=-
Hi Don
DM> Norman Solomon said "Dyslexia" to Richard Smith,
DM> adding:
NS> Thanks for your understanding, my objective in Fidoland was originally
NS> to investigate other peoples faith systems, (did I pick the wrong echo
NS> or what)
NS> I have stuck with Holysmoke as the information I am getting on the
NS> "Christian scene" over there has blown me away. I am convinced the
NS> information I am getting is true, my only doubts are the extent.
DM> I do not know whether the "extent", in terms of
DM> percentages of the population believing one way or another
DM> is available on this echo; suffice it to say that fundism is
DM> fairly well organized in this country (Christian Coalition,
DM> Moral Majority, et al.) and has hundreds of millions of
DM> dollars to spend. This makes it a force to be reckoned with.
I had'nt realised it was so well funded (no punn intended), Christianity
over here is underfunded, and often has expensive ancient buildings to
maintain. Therefore a life dedicated to the church is just that, as the
pay is just above welfare levels or below if they have loads of kids.
That kind of money you describe would attract the wrong sort of chap(ess)
IYSWIM. Perhaps what you need is a law which limits pay to full time
church ministers, that should sort out the Wheat from the Chafe.
DM> I have seen you elsewhere wonder at the apparent bias you
DM> encounter here, and I would suggest that your approach to
DM> the echo may account for some of it. In yet another post, I
DM> see that you read only messages addressed to you or to
DM> "all": this cuts out over 90% of the traffic. While this may
DM> be your aim, please note that it reduces your sample by that
DM> amount, distorting the trends within it. I fear that you
DM> pretty much have to read _all_ of HolySmoke (fundies to
DM> WOAS, fundies to fundies, WOAs to WOAs, etc.) to be in a
DM> position to get some sort of handle on the amount of bias.
Your point is well made and taken, I have upgraded my hardware, and
had a bit of down time as a result, but as from yesterday I now get
everything. Today I hope to be up to date with all personal mail
as well :)
NS> I would love to hear how Christian doctrane has become so corupted,
I
NS> think it as though they are so insecure in their beliefs they do not
NS> dare to hear any conflicting views.
DM> This is probably not the place for the history of a
DM> process. It is pretty much in the present around here.
That was the biggest suprise of all.
NS> I welcome them and see them as
NS> viable alternatives. But where you are I suspect that is unbelievable
NS> to you as Christians shooting doctors is here.
DM> I dunno. I'd be willing to bet that of UK doctors shot,
DM> over 70% were shot by Christians, given your state church
DM> and all that. Then, too, they were probably shot because
DM> they pissed the Christians off in areas other than theologic.
Stangely, the sort of incidends described in here perp. upon Abortion
clinics, by fundies, is mirror imaged here as attacks by animal rights
people, perps. being New Age types.
It would seem that if you really want to our dander up, threaten the puppy
or the bunnie :)
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: CDA
|Date: 10 Mar 97 15:40:00
EID:1df5 226a7d00
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org 43a71975
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Norman Solomon <=-
Hi Fredric
> FR> side various leftist ideologies(such as the defeat of the infamous
> FR> CDA.)
> Who are the CDA?
FR> The latest "Communications Decency Act."
Thanks for the info.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Blavatsky?
|Date: 10 Mar 97 15:46:00
EID:cd35 226a7dc0
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org 88ce1861
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Norman Solomon <=-
Hi Don
DM> Norman Solomon said "Blavatsky?" to Anthony Grigor-scott,
DM> adding:
-=> Quoting Anthony Grigor-scott to Mark O'neill <=-
AG> Just a few words of accurate comment on the verse you quoted.
MON> "One man - one vision,
AG> The vision is for one man, but the fact is there are two. The
AG> "original sin" was adultery between Eve and the Serpent, a man-like
AG> creature before God changed every bone in his body. Cain is nowhere
in
AG> the genealogy of the human race. Neither are his descendants to this
AG> day.
NS> This is a joke, TELL ME THIS IS A JOKE!
DM> When you came aboard announcing that you were a
DM> Christian, this is what you stepped into, a ready-made
DM> reputation created by loons. If Giggle-Snot fails to satisfy
DM> your need for the new and unusual in theologic extravagance,
DM> you have but to wait for the reappearance of John Prewett,
I have only just get over the shock "AG" was'nt joking.
DM> who believes that our late President Kennedy isn't really
DM> dead, but is about to reappear as the Antichrist, with Henry
DM> Kissinger as his second in command. And these are the
:)
DM> relatively harmless ones: we have had the hopeful Christian
DM> sentiment of looking forward to watching our tortures in
DM> Hell expressed many times by many people, and one memorable
DM> lamb o' th' flock wished to know the addresses of us WOAs
DM> (wicked old atheists) so that he might show up on our
DM> doorsteps to drive a pitchfork through our skulls (an image
DM> hearkening back to the agrarian craftsmanship of yore).
Good grief, if such is really looking for evil, they would need look
no future than there own black hearts IMHO.
DM> While you may have found your "welcome" here surprising, it
DM> was not out of the ordinary in view of the traffic we have
DM> had in the past.
Yes I see that very clearly now, and now I am taking the whole echo
again I will start to see some of this stuff first hand.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 10 Mar 97 18:15:00
EID:8d34 226a91e0
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org adde7f9e
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to Norman Solomon <=-
RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> Norman Solomon said to Dan Ceppa about Exemplifying examples:
Hi Richard :)
ky> Yes, we create hunger.. Besides the fact that we are not
ky> obeying God,
DC> Too bad that your little books says you are wrong. It
DC> says that your god created _everything_.
ns> If you are refering to the bible, you are in error.
ns> God created everything and it was good
RS> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
RS> Hunh?
And it was good
ns> By all means argue with Ken, but if you are going
ns> to say the bible says.......then get it right.
RS> Having a problem, Norman?
Oh Richard you are a one :) I qualified it with the "and" statement.
:)
DC> So, your god didn't create everything. Seems like your
DC> book is wrong.
ns> All that seems to be at fault here is your ability to
ns> comprehend the biblical version of creation.
ns> God created everything and it was good
RS> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
RS> Hunh again?
That'll teach me to paraphrase, OK then the biblical version.
"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good" Gen 1:31 (NIV)
RS> ... it (the Bible) says your god created _everything_. - Dan Ceppa
RS> ... you're in error...God created everything... - Norman Solomon
Hey I made a tag line, I'VE ARRIVED!
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: FUNDY FROLICS
|Date: 10 Mar 97 18:28:00
EID:a08e 226a9380
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org 1f77b842
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to Norman Solomon <=-
-=> Quoting Norman Solomon to Judith Bandsma <=-
Hi Roger
NS> I find it rather difficult to get my head around how an organisation
NS> calling itself "Pro Life" can then get involved in Murder.
RH>
RH> They are soldiers for Christ, defending the lives of the unborn
RH> by killing the killer doctors. Truly a noble calling.
RH> NOT!
Oh thank goodness for the "NOT!" you had me worried there for a moment.
NS> OK Judith you got me what is an "emesis basin"?
RH> Vomit pan.
I'm indebted to you, ta.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: FUNDY FROLICS 3/3
|Date: 10 Mar 97 18:32:00
EID:e08c 226a9400
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org 470bf4f6
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to Norman Solomon <=-
-=> Quoting Norman Solomon to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
Hi Roger
NS> I hope I come under the heading of having arguments fine tuned, and
I
NS> am overloaded with info, and the humour is great. Just wish I had
NS> more time I am getting behind even with the personal mail.
RH> If you came here to sharpen your sword, we'll grind it down until
RH> you'll be lucky to pick your teeth with what's left.
Yes and it's great, I love the challenge and it's good to have your thinking
patterns tested.
RH> Welcome to the echo, Norman. We see so few reasonable Christians
RH> over here.
Thanks for the welcome, with my new modem I hope to join the frey now that
I can get the whole echo.
Norman
======
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|From: Norman Solomon
|To: Jason Harmon
|Sub: Re: Fundy Frolics 2/3
|Date: 10 Mar 97 18:45:00
EID:0cfa 226a95a0
MSGID: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org a10a9ee7
-=> Quoting Jason Harmon to Norman Solomon <=-
-=> Quoting Norman Solomon to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
Hi Jason
NS> Now that's frightning, it's like going back to "our" dark ages, but
NS> the KKK don't still exist do they?
JH> Sure does. In fact, a "recruitment center" is opening right in my
JH> state. Right above a place that wants to be a KKK museum and
JH> memorabilia shop.
What is it exactly that the KKK "believe"? I have to confess all I know
about them is gleened from old movies, so you could say I know nothing.
Which state by the way?
Norman
======
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAMIEN WELLMAN
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 12 Mar 97 12:29:00
EID:5282 226c63a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Damien Wellman to David Rice <=-
>>DC> And, just why can you only speculate? Where _is_ the
>>DC> Garden of Eden? Perhaps we should send a scientific
>>DC> team to it to investigate it.
>DR> Ensign Pavlovich Chekov said it was "Just outside
>DR> [Moscow]."
DW> No doubt some would say it's in Texas. They have
DW> everything in Texas.
I thought everything is bigger in Texas. Except penises.
... "A psychiatrist can do wonders for your problem, Bryson." -- Karen D
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAVE HAMILTON
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 12 Mar 97 12:46:00
EID:6b53 226c65c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dave Hamilton to Norman Solomon <=-
>NS> Rom 8 paraphrased (but not to death) For those
>NS> God[sic] foreknew, he predestined, called, justified
>NS> then glorified.
ROM 8:28 And we know that god causes all things to work
together for good to those who love god, to those who are
called according to {his} purpose.
ROM 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined {to
become} conformed to the image of his son, that he might
be the first-born among many brethren;
ROM 8:30 and whom he predestined, these he also called;
and whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he
justified, these he also glorified.
Therefore the god takes away the free will of some people.
The god's most popular bastard, Jesus, therefore did not
"die for" these people.
DH> Ah, but isn't this Calvanism (without the work-ethic part)?
Of course.
>NS> Many christians[sic] stick sanctified in there but
>NS> it's not and that's the good news. They are all things
>NS> God[sic] does which relates to salvation.
Such as denying it to those whom the god made homosexual. (KY)
DH> So it's not an even playing field?
Romans 8 says it is not. Those whom the god "called"
(reality: those whom believe their god has "called" them)
are PREDESTINED to be saved ("glorified"). They had no
choice in the matter: Jesus did not die for them.
>NS> The gap between Justification[sic] (saved/born again
>NS> or whatever) and Glorification[sic] is our post saved
>NS> christian[sic] life, where we will work out our
>NS> salvation (sanctification). But if you have been
>NS> justified you will be glorified. The incomplete
>NS> sanctification being completed in an instant as
>NS> we are rebuilt into the likeness of Christ.
DH> Ok, I follow your thesis here (well, Paul's) but I
DH> have always been unable to buy it. I've worked in
DH> counselling situations with people normally considered
DH> complete losers. Crack addicts who keep falling down
DH> and getting up, over and over. They are in so much
DH> shit they won't in their entire lifetimes ever even
DH> get to start following xtian dogma. But they do no
DH> harm to anyone but themselves and are often very
DH> loveable people. In the same community I've met
DH> folks who do not have the same self-imposed obstacles
DH> but are very difficult to like. The difference can
DH> be found in the gospels, not in the epistles.
The god doesn't love those people as much as it loves
those he revoked free will from.
... "El O'him: God is an Irish Mexican." J.j. Hitt
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAVE HAMILTON
|Sub: Drugs
|Date: 12 Mar 97 13:08:00
EID:d729 226c6900
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dave Hamilton to Fredric Rice <=-
DH> I did some scrounging and found this for the Canadian
DH> Services for Correction. This is for 1996.
DH>
DH> Offence Pct Number
DH> Homicide 20.1 4,553
DH> Sex 17.9 4,041
DH> Robbery 32.8 7,418
DH> Drug 24.8 5,615
Sex is a crime in Canada?! I'm not going there on my honeymoon!
DH> This is unfortunately as detailed as it gets, but as you
DH> can see, I wasn't too far off in my guess of 20%. There
DH> are detailed reports that result in this summary, but I
DH> could not determine where a subject would fit if he were
DH> charged with both robbery and drug trafficing (not an
DH> impossible situation).
In the Land of the Free, one may be standing in ones' kitchen
washing dishes and have armed, armoured thugs kick the door
in, slam ones' family members to the floor, and get a shot-
gun muzzle put in ones' ear if the DEA believes someone who
lives there sells drugs. This is called "Protecting the
chldren," where "the children" is every child that lives
in the nation.
If no drugs are found, the parents might wait many months
before they get their children back from "Child Protective
Services." Any property damage caused in the raid is the
owner's tough luck.
If drugs are found, the DEA gets to keep the house. If
drugs are found in automobiles, the DEA gets those too.
This property is then sold to finance the "war on drugs."
The early Americans fought a war against the United Kingdom
over these (and other) issues. Hummmm.
... He's the only person alive who goes to a Proctologist for a haircut.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: infinitesimals
|Date: 12 Mar 97 13:16:00
EID:4231 226c6a00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting John Brawley to David Worrell:
>>DW> Thanks for allowing me to take credit for another
>>DW> flyby.
JB> You missed the concept in the first place. A
JB> dimensionless point is a 'thing' --a nonzero item.
Please mail to me a dimentionless point. Thank you.
I will pay postage based on weight.
... John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, #0, Fidonet Address (0:0/0.0)
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: James Makes Things Up?
|Date: 13 Mar 97 08:08:00
EID:7d9b 226d4100
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-
>>JS> No prob: 3000-4000 late term, partial-birth abortions
>>JS> a year involving healthy mothers and healthy fetuses.
>>JS> Source: Ron Fitzsimmons, head of the Coalition of Abortion
>>JS> Practitioners I guess that should do it.
>DR> Do you really expect people to take your word for it?!
>DR> If so, you're even more ignorant than Appletoon.
JS> Actually, Dave, (other than yourself) I could give a
JS> rat'z if they take my word for it or not, but this is
JS> (and has been) easily proven. Check news archives for
JS> Feb 24-26.
You are right, more or less, and I was wrong, more or less.
Ron Fitzsimmons made a statement that said out of the
3,000-4,000 "late term abortions," some have been of viable
fetuses and healthy girls/women. As far as I have been able
to discover, he did not say how many out of those 3,000
to 4,000 abortions were involved.
Given the tract record of your co-religionists, you can
perhaps understand the general skepticism when you post
such a message without any references.
P.S. Quentin sends his love.
... Melenkurion abatha! Minas mill khabaal!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Dead God! Onna stick!
|Date: 12 Mar 97 13:25:00
EID:8579 226c6b20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Quentin Fai <=-
>QF> Three hours would be an utterly insignificant amount of
>QF> time to an immortal being.
KY> But Jesus was not in an immortal form. You seem to
KY> forget, he came here as a man.
And he left here as a rotting pile of maggot chow.
... Saul was a liar, he said so. (Romans 3:7.) - Simon Ewins
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 12 Mar 97 13:30:00
EID:f667 226c6bc0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to David Rice <=-
-=> Quoting David Rice to Rod Swift <=-
>DR> I've read about the proposed AIDS victim concentration
>DR> camps; the proposed international database to keep track
>DR> of AIDS victims; the proposed criminal laws against AIDS
>DR> victims who do not advertise their afliction.
RH> All excellent ideas IMHO. What do you have against any of
RH> them?
The eradication of liberty is not worth such a dear price.
RH> How better to contain an epidemic than by isolating the
RH> carriers from the healthy? We used to quarantine measles
RH> victims, why not AIDS victims?
Measles is very easy to aquire. HIV is damn difficult: one
must work hard, statistically speaking, to aquire the virus
(if HIV is the contributory cause of AIDS).
RH> Why shouldn't we punish anyone who knowingly passes
RH> on a fatal illness?
Who said such a person should not be punished?
... BELIEVER.CON found: [A]nnoy [I]nsult or [E]xploit for money?
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Murderous Christians
|Date: 12 Mar 97 13:37:00
EID:0edb 226c6ca0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to David Rice <=-
>>>DR> Since the Branch Davidians and Janet Reno were and are
>>>DR> Christians, your special pleading is specious.
>>KY> Interesting statement, considering the fact that Janet
>>KY> Reno has said that Christianity is a cult.
>DR> Christianity is a cult. No one would dispute that.
KY> Most Christians would.
If Christianity is not a cult, what is it? A knitting club?
KY> Not to mention anyone that understand what a cult
KY> really is.
Which it appears you do not. Christianity matches the
definition of the word. Your ruderal cult qualifies.
cult (kult) n. 1.a. A religion or religious sect generally
considered to be extremist or false, with its followers
often living in an unconventional manner under the
guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The
followers of such a religion or sect. 2. A system or
community of religious worship and ritual. 3. The formal
means of expressing religious reverence; religious
ceremony and ritual. 4. A usually nonscientific method or
regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or
exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 5.a.
Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration
for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such
devotion. 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an
esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
--attributive. Often used to modify another noun: a cult
figure; cult films. [Latin cultus, worship, from past
participle of colere, to cultivate.
kwel-1. Important derivatives are: colony, cult,
cultivate, culture, wheel, cycle, cyclone, bicycle,
collar, pole1, pulley, bucolic.
kwel-1. To revolve, move around, sojourn, dwell. I. Basic
form *kwel-. COLONY, CULT, CULTIVATE, (CULTURE); INCULT,
INQUILINE, SILVICOLOUS, from Latin colere, to till,
cultivate, inhabit. II. Suffixed form *kwel-es-. TELIC,
(TELIUM), TELO-; ENTELECHY, TALISMAN, TELEOLOGY,
(TELEOST), TELEUTOSPORE, from Greek telos, "completion of
a cycle," consummation, perfection, end, result. III.
Suffixed reduplicated form *kw(e)-kwl-o-, circle. 1.
WHEEL, from Old English hwol, hweogol, wheel, from
Germanic *hwewlaz. 2. CYCLE, CYCLO-, CYCLOID, CYCLONE,
CYCLOSIS; (BICYCLE), ENCYCLICAL, EPICYCLE, from Greek
kuklos, circle, wheel. 3. CHAKRA, CHUKKER, from Sanskrit
cakram, circle, wheel. 4. Metathesized form *kwe-lkw-o-.
CHARKHA, from Old Persian *carka-. IV. O-grade form
*kwol-. 1. Suffixed form *kwol-so-, "that on which the
head turns," neck. a. (i) HAWSE, from Old Norse h³ls,
neck, ship's bow; (ii) RINGHALS, from Middle Dutch hals,
neck; (iii) HAUBERK, from Old French hauberc, hauberk,
from Germanic compound *h(w)als-berg-, "neck-protector,"
gorget (*bergan, to protect; see bhergh-1). (i), (ii), and
(iii) all from Germanic *h(w)alsaz;b. COL, COLLAR, COLLET,
CULLET; ACCOLADE, DECOLLATE1, DéCOLLETé, MACHICOLATE,
(MACHICOLATION), TORTICOLLIS, from Latin collum, neck. 2.
Suffixed form *kwol-³. -COLOUS; PRATINCOLE, from Latin
-cola and incola, inhabitant (in-, in; see en). 3.
Suffixed form *kwol-o-. a. ANCILLARY, from Latin anculus,
"he who bustles about," servant (an-, short for ambi-,
around, about; see ambhi); b. POLE1, PULLEY, from Greek
polos, axis of a sphere; c. BUCOLIC, from Greek boukolos,
cowherd, from -kolos, herdsman. 4. Suffixed form *kwol-es-
(probably a blend of o-grade *kwol-o- and expected e-grade
*kwel-es-). CALASH, KOLACKY, from Slavic kolo, koles-,
wheel. 5. Suffixed o-grade form *kwol-eno-. (see wes-3)
Old Iranian *vah³-carana-, "sale-traffic," from *carana-,
trade, traffic. 6. Suffixed zero-grade form *kw§-i-.
PALIMPSEST, PALINDROME, PALINGENESIS, PALINODE, from Greek
palin, again (< "revolving"). [Pokorny 1. køel- 639.]
... Support the National Endowment for Creative Misogyny.- J. Falwell
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: MARK O'NEILL
|Sub: clones
|Date: 13 Mar 97 13:22:00
EID:d123 226d6ac0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Mark O'neill to All <=-
>>LA> each of which helps the organism survive and compete
>>LA> in the environment." (Newsweek, 3/11/80, p. 54)
>AGS> Well reported.
Wow. Talk about the blind loving the blind (to coin an
old saying). Misquoting *NEWSWEEK* is considered good
reporting?!?!?!?! Sheeeeish.
MO> Lookout everyone. I fear a mutual dick pulling session
MO> is imminent.
LOL!
... Science is to Creationism as a clove of garlic is to vampires.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Mark O'neill
|Sub: 1 The List
|Date: 12 Mar 97 18:38:00
EID:2547 226c94c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org d7898b42
MO>While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
MO>conductors on church steeples, Katherine Wintersnight said this about
1 The
MO>List
MO> G'day Katherine,
MO> KW> WHO'S WHO: THE ALIGNMENT LIST:
MO>Could you add me to the list please. Thanks.
The entry on the web page is already taken care of, and the updated list
will be reposted here on the first of the month.
You can find the web list at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3158/cast.html
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Why don't they have MOUSE flavored catfood?
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: clones
|Date: 12 Mar 97 18:38:00
EID:440c 226c94c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 6755218c
KS>KW>KS>Well, 'Dolly', the first actual adult mammal clone is alive and
well.
KS>KW>KS>Coincidentally, she's a sheep.
KS>KW>KS>I'm having a devil (oops) of a time trying to figure out what impact
KS>KW>KS>this will have on fundys...
KS>KW>Cheaper 'marital aids'.
KS>Heh. I'm gonna wait for the 2nd generation where they can be 'made
KS>to order'...
Bigger udders?
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * Witches do it in a spiral.
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
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|From: Katherine Wintersnight
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: nazi website
|Date: 12 Mar 97 18:38:00
EID:5c84 226c94c0
MSGID: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4d71c7a8
EM>From: Neal Horsley
-------more of the same snipped----
EM>interested about the truth, which is why you fabricate or pass on the
EM>fabricated quote from "Hitler." How quickly you squander your credibility.
EM>That's always been Satan's weakness. He simply cannot avoid lying.
He is,
EM>after all, the father of lies. Liar, liar, pants (as well as all other
EM>parts of your being soon to be) on fire. Unless you repent.
EM>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
EM>Should I try to talk him into getting set up as a point?
Is this the best he could summon forth? 'Liar, liar, pants on fire'?
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!With his type, it does always come down to hot pants,
doesn't it.
It's also interesting that he jumped to the conclusion that your quote
must have been fabricated just because it made him uncomfortable.
Rather like the xtians that have fits whenever a xtian does something
horrid and it's commented on. Unfortunately for them, it was the xtain
who did it, not a wiccan or jew or whatever no matter how much it
upsets them.
---
* OLXWin 1.00a * With a god like Jehovah, who needs a Devil?
--- QScan/PCB v1.19b / 01-0093
* Origin: La Cantina BBS * El Paso * 915-532-0332 * 4 Nodes (1:381/123)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: CE
|Date: 12 Mar 97 02:39:01
EID:407e 226c14e0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 47184868
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> To be perfectly fair, you must realize that they were in this
RC> respect no more ignorant than anyone else at the time.
RH> Perfectly fair?? In HolySmoke?
Do you think there's something unfair here? Unrestrained, certainly,
but more often fair than not due to unfettered thinking and the
refusal to give *unearned* respect to religion (or to anything else,
for that matter). Furthermore, is it not fair to laugh at idiots?
RC> The earliest known use of zero as a number was not until the
RC> 7th century CE, about 300 years after those calendar decisions
RC> were made.
RH> When did the Arabs start using it?
After that, since the first known usage was in India.
RC> Furthermore, there is nothing *mathematically* wrong with it
RC> just because it doesn't suit your personal preferences.
RH> A number line with no zero is mathematically CORRECT?
RH> Since when?
First, a calendar is different from a number line. I was stating that
there is nothing mathematically incorrect with a calendar just because
it does not conform to your desire to make it correspond to numbers
arranged on a typical number line. I don't know how to say it any more
clearly than that.
Second, one may arrange an _atypical_ number line however one wishes.
You won't resolve an argument where he and you mean different things.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: JOHN-BOY'S X=1
|Date: 12 Mar 97 02:39:02
EID:6981 226c14e0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 47184869
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> So use a discrete metric that takes on the nonnegative integers
RC> as possible values, and the answer is exactly one.
JB> (*sigh*) Have done.
RH> His solution won't work anyway. If you accept a discrete metric
RH> you rule out fractions of dmin.
Why do you need "fractions of the smallest nonzero distance?" They
would simply by existing negate that definition, rendering it false.
If these are just to allow for connections between points that are
greater than one but nonintegral as measured in 3-space using an l2
metric (i.e., standard solid geometry), then my solution can still
possibly work. It would require a discrete geometry to be used instead
of continuous 3D euclidean geometry, that's all.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 13 Mar 97 19:29:17
EID:15a6 226d9ba0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 76d90751
DR> them that I am an "ex-negro, but now, praise god, I'm
DR> white." They hung up on me and said over the air that I
DR> was "obviously disturbed."
DR> I wonder if they took the hint.
Too gawwddamned stupid to take the hint.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW
|Date: 13 Mar 97 08:55:07
EID:f11b 226d46e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33281da0
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 162161d8
Karl Schneider said "ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM>Mr. Jiffy Lube said "ALTERNATIVE OR STRAW" to Karl Schneider,
DM>adding:
DM> KS> Baton Rouge, eh? Is Slimeball Swaggart still fucking
DM> KS> hookers in N.O.?
DM> KY> Hmm.. When did he do that? I must have somehow missed that
DM> KY> one.. Ya know, you really must stop reading the tabloids for
DM> KY> your news.
DM> Doncha just love it when the truly ignorant mistakenly accuse
DM>somebody else of ignorance? Does anyone have a transcript of
DM>Swaggart's broadcast confession of his pathetic sexuality, or shall
KS> Actually, I have a videotape of his tearful admission of 'mendacity'
KS> and the resultant Satan-induced trysts. If I can scare it up, I'll
KS> transcribe it...
And who says now that atheists do no good works?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Murderous Christians
|Date: 13 Mar 97 08:56:09
EID:3ec2 226d4700
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33281da1
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 33273124
Ken Young said "Murderous Christians" to Don Martin,
adding:
>DR> Christians, your special pleading is specious.
DR>
KY> Interesting statement, considering the fact that Janet
KY> Reno has said that Christianity is a cult.
DR>
DR> Christianity is a cult. No one would dispute that.
KY> Most Christians would.
DM> Doubtless they would. Now would you care to give the
DM> reaction of some _educated_ population?
KY> I must say, your posts are quite refreshing.. Many will
KY> lie or fool themselves and claim to be open-minded, but
KY> you in insisting that no Christian can be ecucated,
KY> sure show your close-mindedness quite well.
So far as the general education level of Christians is
concerned, I need merely cite what the bulk of Christians on
this echo demonstrate daily. At issue here is the meaning of
the word "cult", which educated Christians would agree
applies to Christianity. You are the one here insisting that
"most Christians" would _not_ so agree, so you are the one
offering a blanket characterization of the intellectual
shortcomings of the majority of your fellow cultists. I do
not, as it happens, insist that no Christian can be
educated; I will say, however, that in your case and that of
the likes of Staal, Ragland, Appletoon, et al., the job is
more than a sane person would care to undertake as a hobby.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: J.J. NEEDS TO BE
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:05:59
EID:3e37 226d60a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33283c96
REPLY: 1:383/6293 331B881F
Darryl Gonzalez said "J.J. NEEDS TO BE" to Fredric Rice,
adding:
FR> FR> FR> FR> FR> > My God can do and has done something about evil:
He
DG> sent His Son, FR> Jesus
FR> > Christ, to defeat Satan, by dying on the cross at Calvary to be
FR> the
FR> > perfect
FR>
FR> Gee. Just like Mithra 380 years before the Jesus mythos. Looks
FR> like another god beat yours to the punch, dear.
FR>
FR> Might I suggest you learn the origins of the Jesus myths? And the
FR> religions which the Christanic death cult used as its basis?
FR>
FR> http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
FR> frice@linkline.com or frice@stbbs.com
FR>
DG> Fredric, are you so naive as to think that I haven't heard of these
DG> stupid allegations? From everything I've heard, it looks like Satan
DG> borrowed elements of what he knew God's plan to be
Really? And what evidence have you for the existence of
this Satan person?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: The Flock
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:11:42
EID:2096 226d6160
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33283c97
REPLY: 1:105/24.12 42038aec
Ed Mills said "The Flock" to Don Martin,
adding:
EM> retirement speech. In a measured Kuraltesque voice he talked about how
EM> he'd miss the road, but that he'd found something really fascinating
to
EM> while away the time - "autoerotic asphyxiation."
Ah, yes, where the well-hung get well hanged.
EM>
EM> I was eating McNuggets and had to give myself Heimlich after that.
Hmmmm, autoapplied disasphyxiation: how appropriate!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Old Fart Reminiscences
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:21:36
EID:24e5 226d62a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33283c98
REPLY: 1:383/6293 331CD8F1
Darryl Gonzalez said "Found Christians on the Web" to David Worrell,
adding:
DW> KY> Hmm.. How do so many non-Christians know so much
DW> KY> about Christianity? Answer: You don't. Otherwise,
DW> KY> you would realize that hatred would be going
DW> KY> against Christian beliefs.
DW> Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and
DW> mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and
DW> his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
DG> OK. Time for a little teaching here:
Does this remind anyone else of Mortimer Snerd
lecturing Edgar Bergen? Or aren't you old farts enough?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: Old Farts Anonymous
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:27:17
EID:01a2 226d6360
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33283c99
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ b1635995
Sally Springett said "Old Farts Anonymous" to Don Martin,
adding:
SS> I'm no parvenu old fart; I'm the real thing.
DM> Ah, Madame, my wrinkles and remaining hairs feel a little less
DM> lonely today. I would point out that yours is the only answer,
DM> so there is considerable support for your asserted reality.
DM> Shall we form the Rabbi Ben Ezra Society?
SS> The closest I cared to get to Browning was the outside of his house
SS> in Florence. I never fancied drowning in treakle.
Is Browning better than Kipling? (I dunno, I never
kippeled). I was just thinking of the lines "Grow old along
with me;/The best is yet to be!" as a sort of Geezer
national anthem, as well as a triumph of hope over reason.
SS> The entire NYTimes Magazine this week was devoted to us geezers. My
SS> favorite sentence was that of William Safire (a person I do find
SS> amusing when he speaks of words): "In the reality-avoiding
SS> terminology of Geezerland, _mature_ is to _old_ what _full-figured_
SS> is to _buxom_."
Reality-avoiding, is it? First Alzheimer's, then
becoming born again . . .
SS> My father, who was living with my sister in Fairfax County VA, died
SS> in January. Should I have occasion to visit there again I will
SS> assuredly make an effort to arrange a lunch.
You betcha! Baltimore is your one-stop shopping center
for Lynda Bustilloz and Curtis Johnson, too.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:38:46
EID:c52c 226d64c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33283c9a
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 33263b62
David Worrell said "Cheese Whiz" to Katherine Wintersnight,
adding:
KW> projection--that is the cervix. There is a small hole in the tip of
KW> it--that is called the os, and is the entrance into the uterus. Most
KW> of the month it is blocked with a plug of mucus so it doesn't need a
KW> cover. Do you understand now, or do you need illustrations?
DW> You realize, of course, that you've just given him a woodie?
DW> :)
Given his likely personal sanitation habits, it probably
has termites.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:45:02
EID:e002 226d65a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33285363
REPLY: 1:383/6293 331E2F43
Darryl Gonzalez said "Exemplifying examples" to Dan Ceppa,
adding:
DC> KY> Ever hear of justice?
DC>
DC> It's apprarent from your bible that your god is not bothered
DC> with having to follow that concept.
DG> As I said before, it's odd you should say that, Dan,
DG> because one day God will be imposing sentence on YOU.
DG> Also, your comment implies that a human idea of what
DG> justice is should matter at all to God. Let me
DG> illustrate it this way:
DG> Suppose there exists a universe that occupies only two
DG> dimensions. As it often has been called, by Carl Sagan,
DG> Arthur C. Clarke and others, let's call it Flatland.
This was the creation of neither Clarke nor Sagan, but
of Edwin Abbott. In any event, his "universe", like your
posited superfriend, is imaginary, and while speculation
upon the consequences of imaginary objects can sometimes be
instructive, it cannot establish their reality. What you
propose here is the even weaker link of offering an analogy
between one imaginary object and another.
Now, such amusing anologies and speculations to one
side, have you any real evidence that your god actually
exists outside of human imagination and that it actually
gives enough of a shit about Dan Ceppa to spend its
(doubtless valuable) time "imposing sentence" upon him? Trot
it out if you do.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: Al Debunks Applesauc
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:55:29
EID:c851 226d66e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33285364
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 27df9518
Curtis Johnson said "Al Debunks Applesauc" to Don Martin,
adding:
CJ>> I keep entering messages in the hope that somehow the
CJ>> Curtis Johnson-specific block will give way. Alan Hess's messages
CJ>> are being received and answered, too, from the same BBS.
CJ>> Why me?
DM> [Thunderous voice from on high]:
DM> BECAUSE YOU PISS ME OFF!
CJ> Oh, yeah? Look, if you keep pissing *me* off, I'll go
CJ> worship Arachne over at the WWW!
Ah, would that be the Biblical one with six legs?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:56:48
EID:f4e3 226d6700
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33285365
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 33263fb4
Jifferton J. van der Lube said "Cracker Barrel boycott" to
Dan Ceppa, adding:
KY> I do not believe that while On earth it is up to us to
KY> punish anyone for their sins. They must have the
KY> oppurtunity to repent.
DC> Aren't you the little bigot that claims that
DC> homosexuals cannot repent?
KY> Nope. I was misunderstood. All I was saying was that
KY> while they are gay, they cannot become Christian. But
KY> once they accept Christ as their savior, all
KY> homosexuality is gone.
Strangely enough, I know a gay Presbyterian minister and
a gay Lutheran Minister of Music (actually, the organ lofts
[no pun intended, but, as always, gratefully accepted] of
many a church are pretty regularly staffed by gay persons):
their homosexuality has not vanished, and they remain firmly
committed to Jesus despite my best efforts to disabuse them
of this quaint notion.
Later, you say to Karen Davis:
KY> As to your thing about gays not molesting children,
KY> don't be so sure. Many gays do not do any such thing, I
KY> admit that. In fact, most gays likely would find such a
KY> thing very sick indeed. But, a majority of molesters do
KY> appear to be gay.
And just what is your source for this information?
Please cite it for us all. Most sources of statistics on
crime agree that the overwhelming majority of child
molesters are heterosexual, and I am very interested in
whose this novel view might be and upon what data it is
based.
Later still, you say to Katherine Wintersnight:
KW> No, dear. It will just start happening more openly.
KW> When abortion was illegal, women still got abortions.
KW> They died of them more often, they paid more for them,
KW> or if they were totally backed into a corner with no
KW> way out, they killed themselves.
KY> I didn't say that women didn't get abortions. I said
KY> they had less abortions.
And where did you get _this_ information? It is
difficult to say _how_ many persons got abortions before the
operation became legal, for the good and sufficient reason
that illegal activities are reported only when officially
"caught." And yet you assert with the confidence generally
born of ignorance that there were fewer (not less, if you
should someday wish to be mistaken for a native speaker of
English) of them, presumably per capita, back in, say, 1955.
How do you know this to be the case? Where does your
information come from?
KY> And does it matter? Every time an abortion is
KY> performed, someone dies anyway? What's one more?
Your tender concern for grown persons is duly noted. You
_are_ a vile little hog's turd, aren't you, Jelly? May you
contract AIDS from your firstborn.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Norman Solomon
|Sub: Fundy Frolics
|Date: 13 Mar 97 14:41:52
EID:07a2 226d7520
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33285bfb
REPLY: 2:2501/217@fidonet.org bdf4bfb0
Norman Solomon said "Fundy Frolics" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> not have outside. So far, I have not seen any WOA whoppers that
DM> match the assertion that mankind invented leukemia, but doubtless
DM> you have some examples in mind. Quite frankly we do not much care
DM> _what_ Christians think of us here: that is their problem and not
DM> ours.
NS> Yes that's very good advice, and I am begining to find the richness
NS> within this echo. I am just suprised, and a little saddened that I
NS> feel more identified with the WOA than the Christians. But I am
NS> determined to remain true to myself.
Over the years I have seen this reaction several times
on the part of decent theists who have wandered in here.
DM> are often quite amusing. With any luck, the experience might even
DM> make them think, but that is more than dare I hope for here. I do
DM> hope that the spectacle might induce thought in those in the
DM> gallery, though.
NS> Well it has caused me to think, and change my views somewhat. For
NS> example I had never considered before how unfair the law is to gay
NS> relationships.
It wasn't all that long ago on your side that
homosexualty could get one seven years in gaol. May I
recommend the film "The Naked Civil Servant" the biography
of Quentin ___ (can't remember his name: at one point he
describes himself as "one of the stately old homos of
England.")* The film is both terribly funny and bloody
horrifying.
* Just looked it up on the Internet; it is Quentin Crisp.
The film was originally produced for Thames Television. Some
other tidbits from the Wit and Wisdom of QC webpage:
'If Quentin Crisp had never existed it is unlikely
that anyone would have had the nerve to invent him.'-
The Times
Upon becoming a resident alien of the United States
in 1981, he moved to New York city, vowing never to
leave. Until very recently, Mr. Crisp found it difficult
to believe in abroad. It seemed too remote to anyone who
had lived for thirty-eight years in one room in
Chelsea-incidentally, without ever cleaning it. In the
winter of his life, he describes himself on his income
tax forms as a retired waif. Having been unsuccessfully
an artist, a teacher of tap dancing, an occasional
writer, and a minor televisionary, he is now an old-age
pensioner-a career at which he can hardly fail. In spite
of all this, he has the nerve to preach on the subject
of life-style and claims with the aid of it to be able
to cure you of your excessive freedom, which he deems to
be the cause of the world's ills. These public
appearances are his humble attempt to thank the human
race for having to some extent revised the condemnatory
opinion it has held of him for so long.
So long as such people as he exist, there will always be
an England! A retired waif, indeed!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Norman Solomon
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 12 Mar 97 22:21:09
EID:f811 226cb2a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33272c55
-> On 07 Mar 97 18:28:00, Norman Solomon got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> I've read, having a state religion keeps that religion in tune
DC> with the current politics. In this country, each religion wants
DC> to be the one that controls all of the politics.
NS> It's this controling, manipulating side of things that troubles me
NS> most it just ain't possible to make faith in anything law. IMHO anyone
NS> so selfish, and selfseeking has lost the plot somewhat.
Now, are you running into that in your country? I'm under the
impression the the Church of England tends to keep a low
profile in their relationship with the government.
DC> go. But, it would be easier if there was no religion involved
DC> in politics.
NS> 100% agree!
What is also scary is seeing religion get entrenched via the
back door method. One blatant example in this country was the
inclusion of "In God We Trust" on coinage.
... If they're stupid enough to believe the other lies, what's one more?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Norman Solomon
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 12 Mar 97 22:47:57
EID:aafb 226cb5e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3327329d
-> On 07 Mar 97 19:01:00, Norman Solomon got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> And, just why can you only speculate? Where _is_ the Garden
NS> Because I am not all knowing, the one thing I am sure about is that
NS> truth may be outside of the product of my knowledge and experience.
Do you believe in a valley propogated by dinosaurs long
thought to be extinct? One would have thought that
sattelite imagery would have located that or the Garden
by now.
NS> What nonsense, the child is cohersed, manipulated, and led astray.
By who? It's your god and his buddies that attempt to keep the
knowledge from Adam and Eve.
DC> Wrong. Very, very wrong. The Serpent tells the truth. It's
DC> the "god" that lies.
NS> Show me.
God says that they "would surely die that day". It's obvious
that that did not happen, per your book.
NS> Wrong the only fruit they did not get to taste was the fruit of the
NS> tree of life. And what in your view was the Serpents motive? and Gods?
Let's look at your god's motive, per his words: "if they eat of
the Tree of Life they will become like us." IOW, your god was
upset about the competition.
... "While my assistant, Jim, wrestles Cthulhu . . . " -- Marlon Perkins
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Flexible Dating.
|Date: 12 Mar 97 22:53:50
EID:a9d9 226cb6a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332733fe
-> On 11 Mar 97 05:53:12, Laurie Appleton got back to Dan Ceppa
LA> Well, it was Harry Truman alright but NOT the one that
LA> was a President, as it turns out. Not to worry. Now, lets
DC> Of course it "turns out" that way, Laurie. That's
DC> because you were lying your ass off. If you were there, you
DC> would have known that.
LA> Since your belief system is that all you have is a
LA> renovated Orangutan brain then what you think might be
If I had that little of a brain it would be still be far
beyound your lack of comprhension to understand, Laurie.
Thank you for confirming that you are a consumate liar.
... Appleton does more for evolution than his limited mind comprehends.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: He Does It Again!
|Date: 12 Mar 97 23:11:36
EID:9138 226cb960
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33273828
-> On 10 Mar 97 19:19:06, Ken Young got back to Masochistic Maiden
MG> Fuck your god.
KY> No, I am pretty sure sex with a supernatural being is forbidden.
MM> Mary
KY> Show me where it says that she did that act with Him.
Gee, Kenny, just how badly did you fail your Sex Education
course?
... Cthulhu loves you...on a Ritz cracker.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Helpless Moron (2).
|Date: 12 Mar 97 23:20:29
EID:8296 226cba80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33273a3d
-> On 11 Mar 97 05:45:38, Laurie Appleton got back to Robert Curry
LA> What is DEMONSTRATED in laboratories? Do you mean that we
LA> are constantly making LIVING things from simple inorganic
Yes and no, Laurie. The self-replicating RNA was made. And, it
replicates completely on it's own.
LA> chemicals? What is the name of these living things? What
LA> SPECIES are they?
I doubt it was given a species name. However, I may check
out with my alma mater on the progress of self-replicating
basic genetic material. After all, it's a cinch that you
will not take the time to do so: It takes your "creationist
theory" and blows it to hell.
... Appleton Tours. Your host, President Truman. Book Now!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Idiocy
|Date: 12 Mar 97 23:23:55
EID:e625 226cbae0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33273b0b
-> On 10 Mar 97 14:52:02, Martin Goldberg got back to Ken Young
MG> There is no evidence, Jelly. There is only your wild assed guess.
MG> You may as well have decided that the president of the US was a
MG> marshmallo.
And the evidence that he isn't is ???
... Dear John Hinkley: Bill Clinton is dating Jody Foster.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Lon Mabon
|Date: 12 Mar 97 23:34:23
EID:06c4 226cbc40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33273d7f
-> On 11 Mar 97 10:05:52, Jim Staal got back to Ed Mills
JS> There is no Lon S. Mabon.
Of course not. The fucking idiot that came up with the stupid
handle is brain dead.
... He isn't dead. He's electroencephalographically challenged.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 12 Mar 97 23:42:06
EID:363d 226cbd40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33273f4e
-> On 11 Mar 97 08:47:21, Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift
RS> You're just that dumb.
JS> More frustrated name calling responses from Rod Swift.
Supply evidence to the contrary, Jim-bozo. Go ahead, use
that single neuron of yours and attempt to state something
even remotely intelligent.
... "Post that in alt.thinking-hurts the next time.": Kevin Mckenzie
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Reality 101.
|Date: 12 Mar 97 23:53:11
EID:c546 226cbea0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332741e7
-> On 11 Mar 97 05:56:42, Laurie Appleton got back to Dan Ceppa
LA> As I have pointed out it was Harry Truman and myself that
LA> were looking for John Musselwhite, who wanted to find
DC> You must have had a great talk with him, knowing that you
DC> were talking with the former Prez.
LA> Naturally! So how about the following;
How about acknowledging that you are so full of shit that
not only your eyes are brown but your ears are as well.
BTW, you did that above with reference to your talking
with the Prez on Mt St Helens.
... First law of holes! When you're in one, quit digging, Laurie.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: The Alignment List, part
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:02:48
EID:64b7 226d0040
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274428
-> On 11 Mar 97 13:22:00, DAVID RICE got back to JOHN BRAWLEY
-=> Quoting John Brawley to David Worrell <=-
JB> When you get bored _enough_, take my name outta
JB> your origin line.
DR> ... John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, Fidonet Address 0:0/0.0
LOL!
You have ZERO compassion to Brawley's plight. NONE, NADA, ZIP,
ZILCH.
You also owe me a beer and a new keyboard! (I may take the tagline
as renumeration, but, is "0" really a number I can count on?) WTIME!
... Lawers & Hookers: Both hired to get their clients off.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Eric Vice
|Sub: The end of the world is nigh!
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:05:35
EID:c473 226d00a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332744cf
-> On 10 Mar 97 14:57:02, Eric Vice got back to Dan Ceppa
EV> your spellcheck, pea brain.
That's "spell checker", Eidelweis.
... Excuse me why I ignore you. There are bigger fish to fry.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Theft & Catholicism
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:13:59
EID:550d 226d01a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332746c7
-> On 10 Mar 97 09:37:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
KW> O own reproductions of several of the 'Venus' statues. I still don't
KW> see the connection between fertility figures and potatoes. Unless,
KW> you are making a parallel concerning the fertility aspect.
It may depend on the culture that you have gotten those statues.
The tread brought to mind those from early "New World" ones.
DC> KW> Being compulsively thin is a relatively recent
DC>I'm not impressed with over-thinness as well. Either extreme
KW> I barely noticed Twiggy at the time she was so popular, but I do see
KW> your point. The real tragedy, of course, is the number of girls and
KW> women who starve themselves literally to death trying to achieve that
KW> fashionable thinness.
Karen Carpenter was one such victim. I think a person has to be
able to be comfortable with themself rather than the expectation
of the rest of the society. As the height charts, they are an
expected norm, not an absolute. Too many people try to match
what society thinks is "best" rather than what's the heathiest
for themselves.
... "You are such a humorous race--and don't suspect it."-"Satan"(Twain)
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Truman Tours?
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:15:34
EID:6dca 226d01e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274726
-> On 11 Mar 97 05:47:10, Laurie Appleton got back to Dan Ceppa
LA> Are you saying that you know for a fact that Harry Truman
LA> never went to Mt. St. Helens?
DC> You were claiming that you where there with Truman, Laurie.
DC> Provide the evidence for that.
LA> First of all provide the message where you claim that I
LA> made that claim! In the meantime see what you think of the
You did so above, you stupid idiot.
... Evolution is observable, predictable & falsifiable. Creationism ain't.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Water and Flood (b).
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:19:23
EID:ec06 226d0260
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3327480b
-> On 11 Mar 97 05:47:48, Laurie Appleton got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> IOW, pinhead, you can't back up your "walk with Truman".
DC> Why isn't that surprising.
LA> If you had seen the original message, which was a response
LA> to some tripe to John Musselwhite, you would not be going on
LA> like this at all!
LA> So here is your "food for thought" for today;
Remind me to come back to your "food" after I get a
far bigger cesspool dug. It is no way large enough to
handle the bullshit that you spew.
... Just think about how stupid he could be if he had any brains...
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Water and Flood.
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:24:22
EID:7b85 226d0300
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274936
-> On 11 Mar 97 05:53:54, Laurie Appleton got back to Dan Ceppa
LA> The world's highest mountains were apparently the bottom
LA> of a sea bed at one time. Their fossils show this. So at one
DC> Gee, Laurie, just how did those mountains get to be as much
DC> as 29,002 feet high?
LA> That is a good question. What we DO know, of course, is
Wait a moment as I get out my hip boots out to wade through
your bullshit.
LA> An evolutionist book says that India, moving slowly but
LA> monotonously from somewhere near the south pole, "rammed into
LA> Asia" about 40 million years ago and THAT is "what done it"
Tough luck, stupid. The evidence shows that the event is
continuing today and had done so in the past, far further
than the 6,000 yrs you allow for the process.
... Do YOU trust a religion that won't obey it's OWN laws?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:31:00
EID:32f4 226d03e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274ac4
-> On 11 Mar 97 07:48:28, Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift
JS> Yup. And shit happens in the Grand River every time it rains in Grand
Gee, Jim-bozo, you really are losing it. Not too long ago,
you would have spelled "shit" "s**t".
Do you kiss your lover-boy with that mouth of yours?
... Messiah looking for jailbait = Jesus of Swaggart.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: all you commies
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:33:00
EID:3c69 226d0420
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274b3c
-> On 10 Mar 97 21:29:06, Ken Young got back to Anthony Grigor-Scott
KY> Well, it isn;t so much that most individuak Americans are Communists,
KY> but rather that America has almost turned into a Communist nation.
KY> The citizens are not all Communists, but the leadership generally is.
Who owns the church you attend, Kenny?
... Religion - organized intolerance.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Bryson Hughes
|Sub: Arrogance^3
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:35:10
EID:b19c 226d0460
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274bbe
-> On 09 Mar 97 19:47:43, Bryson Hughes got back to Fredric Rice
BH> I simple go about my task of educating.
FR> "Educating?" Is that what you call perpetuating hatred, bigotry,
FR> willful ignorance and superstition among the gullible? "Educating?"
BH> You are raving. It has no basis.
On that, Bryson, you are correct. You have no basis to
spout your ignorance as "teaching".
... Blasphemy: When a religious person dares to think.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Bones for Hector Plasmic - Part One
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:37:10
EID:4659 226d04a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274c36
-> On 10 Mar 97 00:57:38, J.J. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
(As a reminder)
JH>> pointed to the presence of Peter's remains in the
JH> I'll attempt to redo it in a week or so.
I'll look for it. Thanks!
... Fundamentalism: "By sword or by cross." America's Homegrown Deathcult.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: Brett Johnson; jealous ig
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:41:12
EID:1902 226d0520
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274d28
-> On 10 Mar 97 14:40:00, Ronald Vass got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> RV> They both seem to lack a working theory, to backup their beliefs.
DC> Perhaps it's time we start up on the nomenclature
DC>of computer storage media!
RV> Leave it to the experts, to come up with a really nasty idea.
RV> Sounds good.
The thing to remember is that it was you that mentioned
"backups". That's what gave me the idea, so, thank you
and all the other zeroes that we can think up and make
work!
... Entropy! "And the computer said, 'let there be light'"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Celestial Bragging
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:44:36
EID:7311 226d0580
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274df4
-> On 11 Mar 97 07:17:52, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
DM> Dan Ceppa said "Celestial Bragging" to Don Martin,
DM> your latitude, you may have more sunlight still) at the same
DM> time (2:15 PST). It is supposed to shift over and be visible
DM> before midnight soon.
I think I missed the AM sighting by about an hour. I heard
on local radio that it was visible at about 5 am.
DM> The tail shifts from being a diffuse fan to having
DM> apparent filaments, just like northern lights.
I heard that there are two separate tails. (Wonder which
xian cult is gonna call it the 'Devil's Comet'?)
... If a tree falls on a mime, does anyone care?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:49:25
EID:1cbf 226d0620
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274f15
-> On 10 Mar 97 12:18:00, DAVID RICE got back to DAN CEPPA
>>>NS> I can only speculate, but the tree of Knowledge of
>>>NS> Good and Evil,
DR> It cracks me up when theists talk as if their fantasies
DR> had existance in the real world.
What I find funny is that they don't understand what humanity,
by their mythos, would have been if Adam and Eve got to eat
from the second tree.
>DR> Not to mention Santa's Workshop....
DC> You mentioned it. Now what do we do? Air strike or
DC> reindeer strike?
DR> Would that be air-to-air or air-to-ground?
Depends if it was fogged in and Rudolph had a sinus
condition that day.
>>DC> Garden of Eden? Perhaps we should send a scientific
>DR> Ensign Pavlovich Chekov said it was "Just outside
>DR> Russia."
DC> "That's outside Moscov, Cept-en, not out side Roosh-ia!"
DR> Oops. You're right, of course. I always get the two places
DR> confused.
Yes, especially as the 'Ensign' wasn't even remotely Russian
to get it right in the first place.
... "Hot Dogs? Vy, dat's a Russian inwention, Kaptain!": Chekov
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:52:39
EID:7dcc 226d0680
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33274fd7
-> On 08 Mar 97 12:14:12, Richard Smith got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> there until summer? It's cole, slaw, it's cole.
DC> Soy, what's new with you?
RS> I'm waiting for Raghead, Gonzalez, and their ilk to pepper
RS> me with responses. I doubt that they're worth their salt.
I'm waiting for Ken Weins to respond. He is supposedly
back from a "HD crash". He seems to have forgotten what
he said when he left this Echo the last time around.
Well, Wiens?
... They were HOMOS! God was justified to kill them. per Ken Weins
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: letter to the editor
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:56:18
EID:87b3 226d0700
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332750b2
-> On 09 Mar 97 19:02:00, ROBERT CURRY got back to ALL
RC> the head of the Campus Crusade for Christ, who was invited to pray
RC> at the opening of the state legislature and made several remarks that
RC> were considered "offensively" sectarian.
RC> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Editor:
RC> the Legislature, let him be as offensive as his religion demands.
RC> Anything less would be dishonest.
RC> So a preacher was invited by our legislators to engage in
RC> ritualistic behavior -- and they got what they were asking for.
------------------------
Sounds like they got what they asked for and are having
second thoughts about the next go-round. If so, good
for them. If not: hopefuly the next "speaker" will offend
them all the more.
... +Origin: PUTRESCINE! Network: Stinking for Jeesus!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: NAKED PAGAN RITUALS
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:59:17
EID:b8bc 226d0760
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33275165
-> On 11 Mar 97 00:57:04, Sue Armstrong got back to Dan Ceppa
FR> No please! Don't send me into the same class as Brawley!
FR> I'll promise to learn how to add, I swear!
RC> OK. What's one star plus three squares?
DC> LOL! It's circle, of course!
SA> No, no. It's a sci-fi actor and his coterie of fanboys.
Hmmmm, just how did _Lost In Space_ get into this thread?
Or, are you talking about Billy Shatner?
... "Fascinating," said Spock, watching Kirk's lousy acting.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: No Good Things
|Date: 13 Mar 97 01:06:03
EID:7a28 226d08c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332752fb
-> On 11 Mar 97 10:03:00, DAVID RICE got back to DAN CEPPA
DC> Of course he did. He was told by Jesse Jones that
DC> atheists do no godd works!
DR> I though you're the one doing the godd works, God Dan. :-)
That is true. After all, what's a typo to condemn some
silly xian to hell. (see below }:-) )
>DR> conversation, gave me a Minney's tee-shirt for free:
DC> Wear it in good health. If you are lucky, you may see
DR> It would have demonstrated to him part of the reason =WHY=
DR> nontheists "to good things" like return money: we hope that
"To?" (Warned ya!)
DR> other people, in turn, act the same way.
Unfortuantely, they can only do so if their "god" is
watching over them. It really should feel strange that
others don't require a threat to do good and they still
do good. And, your story bears out that they require a
crutch, in spades.
... God would know EXACTLY what would convince you he exists. T.A. Wunder
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 10 Mar 97 20:17:24
EID:feca 226aa220
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 33281016
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Rod Swift <=-
RS> I've only known a life of Godlessness... It is a beautiful life.
JS> You have a god. The Bible says those who don't worship God, worship
JS> the god of this world: Satan.
So Jim...do you believe that Satan exists?
Sue
... "Politicians should be presumed guilty until found guilty." Heinlein
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Hi I'm new
|Date: 11 Mar 97 22:35:12
EID:4ea4 226bb460
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 33281017
-=> Quoting Damien Wellman to J.J. Hitt <=-
JB> There are 2. To be described as 'another Laurie Appleton'
JB> and 'another Grigor-Scott'.
JB> There are lesser insulting comparisons, of course, but
JB> those are the big 3.
JH> Methinks Prewett belongs in that billing somewhere.
DW> I'd say the one that tops 'em all would be "another Staal".
DW> Then again, I don't think another Staal COULD exist.
Are you forgetting about that aspect of the Staal persona called
"Lumpy" (aka Mark Staal)? Mark and Jim sounded an awful lot alike...
Sue
... CIA Motto: In God we trust, all others we polygraph.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CHEESE WHIZ
|Date: 11 Mar 97 22:46:46
EID:8fe1 226bb5c0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 33281018
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> Now, if the reason that the procedure is being done is to save
SA> the mother's life when the child has a head too massive to deliver or
SA> to survive, there may be valid reasons to take the chances involved
in
SA> a breach delivery if that makes it easier on the mother to deliver the
SA> fetus.
RH> Why not Caesarean? Head size would not matter that way.
RH> Could it be that the surgical risk is unwarranted,
RH> since the baby would not survive in any case?
I can only speculate, but from what I gather the cesarian operation
may be so drastic (in order to get the head out) that the mother's
chance of carrying another child to term would be adversely affected.
Besides, a cesarian is far from risk free as a procedure so your
specualtion may also be correct.
Sue
... Can you trust me with a child if you can't trust me with a choice?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 11 Mar 97 22:59:12
EID:7216 226bb760
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 33281019
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
JS> On (04 Mar 97) Sue Alexander wrote to Jim Staal...
SA> OK...so Jesus did not need to "boink" a female. He did need to
SA> live within the culture at that time, as the bible states he was
SA> 30 years old when he started to actively preach. The culture
SA> (from what I understand) expected men to marry. Why did he not
SA> then marry, but not have "relations" with his wife?
JS> Very simple: He didn't marry because, as scripture points out many
JS> many times, the church is His bride. He didn't have offspring in order
JS> to fulfill jprophecy about him:
I only found 1 reference to him possibly being a "bridegroom",
though it is not clear whether this is a parable or how he saw himself.
(Matthew 9:15 and Mark 2:19 relating the same story). Could you perhaps
enlighten me as to the other references to this?
JS> (Isa 53:8 NIV) By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And
JS> who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land
JS> of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
When I looked this up and kept reading, I found:
(Isa 53:10 NIV) Yet it was the LORD'S will to crush him and cause him
to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will
see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will
prosper in his hand.
This appears to be speaking of the same individual as the 53:8
quote, yet speaks of offspring. Hmmmm...
Sue
... Somebody's got to have some perspective around here. BOOM! -Ivanova.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 11 Mar 97 23:09:18
EID:9259 226bb920
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3328101a
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
JS> Because we're talking about dedicated Christians here. there will
JS> be more than a million. I am going. I have already signed up for
JS> it. This is not just a racial or political thing. we're talking
JS> about achristians here. :)
SA> (no, I did not edit your quote)
SA> Hmmm, Jim? What happens if the achristians have something else
SA> to do that weekend, and so the turnout is less than the expected 1
SA> million? Will there be a worldwide flood or something?
JS> Sorry about my typos of late...crutches are doing a thing to my
JS> hands. In any event, no.
How can you be so sure, then, that 1 million Christian men can and
will be at that march in DC?
Sue
... "I am too dead! Leave me alone!" - Elvis, somewhere in Michigan
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 11 Mar 97 23:10:58
EID:8cf2 226bb940
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3328101b
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
DR> No god has ever saved the life of someone,
DR> as far as anyone can tell.
JS> Hmmm...I have heard of surgeons/doctors (at least two in my
JS> presence) say 'all we can do now is pray' or 'he is in God's hands
JS> now'...and in both cases the patient survived (one is still
JS> living).
SA> I have heard of them saying this many times where the person did
SA> not survive, Jim. All it is saying is that the doctors can not do
SA> anything more...which does not mean that God is the only factor that
SA> can save the person. As you are quite aware, people can be stubborn.
JS> Why couldn't they actually mean what they said? Do you not think
JS> there are believing doctors?
I did not say that the doctors involved did not believe that prayer
would help the situation, Jim. I said that it means the doctor can not
do anything more. I am sure there are doctors out there who believe in
Jesus, as well as doctors that believe in Allah and maybe even Eris.
This does not change the fact that the doctor can do nothing more
medically for the person at the time that the suggestion for prayer is
given. I was arguing with your premise that if a doctor says that "all
we can do is pray" that the prayer will be a deciding factor.
Sue
... The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Bill Wolff
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: ACT LIKE A CHRISTIAN
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:15:05
EID:7023 226d01e0
-=> Quoting Rod Swift (03-07-97 20:14) to Bill Wolff <=-
Hi Rod...
RS> It's so loving of you. Praise Jesus for your love, Bill. :) :)
RS> I even love you, Billy. :) :)
Next time you run into Jesus, please tell him to return my phone
calls. Thanks in advance.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: [1/3] Cheese Whiz
|Date: 13 Mar 97 07:02:17
EID:8941 226d3840
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 d6a1f03d
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 ef27c5c5
LB> Are later abortions common?
JS> I think the recent revelations by Ron Fitzsimmons, head of the
JS> Coalition of Abortion Practitioners (his previous lie) makes any
JS> further arguement moot. 3000-4000 a year, healthy fetuses, healthy
JS> mothers.
It strikes me as interesting that you so readily believe what
Fitzsimmons says when he agrees with you, but so readily
dismissed his words when you disagreed with him.
We know he's a liar, because he gave two mutually exclusive
statements, but we don't yet have any idea whether either
one of his statements contains much in the way of truth.
Stay tuned for more information before making up your mind
as to the real facts of the issue.
Marilyn
... = Al Schroeder being condescending to a dyslexic.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: You Lose
|Date: 13 Mar 97 07:19:17
EID:d3ae 226d3a60
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 dc9d7a67
On (04 Mar 97) Lynda Bustilloz babbled to JIM STAAL...
LB> Marilyb and Jim were killing time yakking about You Lose:
MB> But I'm sure this is the exception, rather than the rule.
JS> Nope.
MB> Gimme numbers. I want REAL numbers from the Department of
MB> Health, not some fundy number made up by somebody who is
MB> hysterical about even one of the procedures.
JS> No prob: 3000-4000 late term, partial-birth abortions a year
JS> involving healthy mothers and healthy fetuses.
JS> Source: Ron Fitzsimmons, head of the Coalition of Abortion
JS> Practitioners
JS> I guess that should do it.
LB> Not exactly....source for where he was quoted as saying that? One that
LB> can be checked.
It was in the newspaper. But, given the fact that he's now
given two mutually exclusive stories, we have no way of
verifying which one if the truth.
Oh, *I* know; we just as Jim which story he agrees with, and
we've got it.
... "Daddy, what does "formatting non-removable drive c:/99% complete" mean?"
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: JASON HARMON
|Sub: Our Daily Quantum Psychod
|Date: 13 Mar 97 04:42:00
EID:e20d 226d2540
All and Jason were killing time yakking about Our Daily Quantum Psychod:
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to John Brawley <=-
JB> Bozo was trying for the laugh.
DC> Yet, you are garnering more than your share of them.
DC> Quickly now: What's 1273 - 1273 ?
JH> [John Brawley's house/bait shop emporium in some place where the
JH> street numbers don't have zeroes.]
(deleted but archived)
ahem....
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jason....don't you have homework to do? (cracking up)
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
... "Zero is a blasphemous tool of your cunning!" 'John Brawley'
---
* TLX v4.10 *
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: << Crystal Aerie >> 703.415.0134 (1:109/1111)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: HOMOSEXUALS ALSO REPR
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:52:00
EID:7d01 226d6680
Rod and Roger were killing time yakking about HOMOSEXUALS ALSO REPR:
RH> So what? You just said they were bisexual. Gay (to me) means
RH> exclusively homosexual. In such a case, no child is possible.
RS> Because they cease to be fertile? I know of other cases.
RH> Ok, I give up! I was wrong. I thought, based on my own feelings,
RH> that heterosexual relations would be too distasteful.
RH> But it seems that gay/lesbian couples do not feel that strongly
RH> about it.
RH> Yuk.
I think even that is probably too much of a generalization (altho more
gays have probably had experience with heterosexual sex simply if they
every spent anytime "in the closet" so that ALONE may account for less
reluctance - its not such a foreign idea to them).
Hmm...we've been having a similar discussion off and on in IRC..about why
straight men seem to find male gay sex so abhorrent while lesbian sex such
a turn on, and why women tend to range from either curious to bored with
the idea rather than getting strong negative feelings about it.
It occurs to me that women MAY not have a strong shudder reaction to the
idea of lesbian sex, even if she isn't interested it....because we are also
used to having it expected that will have sex at times when we don't
particularly LIKE it. This is, of course, also a generality. :)
I think its a false divider to say its gay or straight...there seems to
be
a range within each, from those who would find the nonpreferred act totally
abhorrent, to those who wouldn't throw up over it but just wouldn't take
any great pleasure in it. And in the middle ranges, those who like either
but may lean a bit in one direction or the other (and those, we call
bisexual).
However, I HAVE known both gay men and women who find the thought of
heterosexual sex too distasteful to even contemplate.
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ "Shut up and pleasure me!" - Peg Bundy
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: << Crystal Aerie >> 703.415.0134 (1:109/1111)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 13 Mar 97 12:59:00
EID:3eb9 226d6760
Robert and Jim were killing time yakking about Literally Seaking:
RC> Would you WORSHIP someone who threatens to torture babies?
JS> Obviously. Check this one out:
JS> (Josh 7:1 NIV) But the Israelites acted unfaithfully in regard to the
JS> devoted things ; Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, the son of
JS> Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the Lord's anger
JS> burned against Israel.
JS> (Josh 7:24 NIV) Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son
JS> of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and
JS> daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had,
JS> to the Valley of Achor.
JS> (Josh 7:25 NIV) Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on
JS> us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today." Then all Israel stoned
JS> him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them.
JS> (Josh 7:26 NIV) Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks,
JS> which remains to this day. Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger.
JS> Therefore that place has been called the Valley of Achor ever since.
JS> Where did you ever get the idea that God messes around? If you said
to
JS> your child if you do this I will punish you in this manner, and
JS> thenwhen he went ahead and did it anyway and you did not do what you
JS> said you would do, what sort of respect would you recieve?
Jim...would you threaten to punish that child by threatening to strangle
it's puppy? And then if the child goes ahead and does it anyway, kill the
puppy in front of him?
The respect would be LOST when the threat was made....carrying it out is
simply proof that you'd be so cruel as to NEVER qualify for anything
approaching respect.
Why would you say that following through on threatened cruelty garners
'respect'?
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ A man who keeps stealing mopeds is an obvious cycle-path.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: << Crystal Aerie >> 703.415.0134 (1:109/1111)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: MARK KIMES
|Sub: raising children for hell
|Date: 13 Mar 97 13:08:00
EID:373b 226d6900
Robert and Jim were killing time yakking about raising children for hell:
Directing this to your attention, FAQ Keeper:
RC> Does your god decide to roast their baby in hell _THEN_?
JS> I don't know if He does roast their baby in hell. Their are degrees
JS> of hell, not necessarily all comprising 'roasting'. There might just
JS> 'simmering'.
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ "Wrong thinking is punishable." -- The Keeper
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
* Origin: << Crystal Aerie >> 703.415.0134 (1:109/1111)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Bryson Hughes
|Sub: Prophets
|Date: 12 Mar 97 16:49:00
EID:dabd 226c8620
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 33289911
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Bryson Hughes cast Prophets at all .. and all hell
broke loose.
BH> That's a FAQ that I'm going to have to make a file on.
BH> Although I had no background in the idea of prophets, I began seeing
BH> visions and angels. Because I was completely unprepared in mind for
BH> this type of thing to be occuring, it took me quite a long time to
BH> begin realizing what was going on.
BH> I knew that something very strange and intelligent was expressing
BH> itself to me, but I didn't know it was God right away. It seemed also
BH> that the very stars had descended from their stations and come to talk
BH> with me, but I didn't know they were angels. Likewise, I didn't know
BH> that the things being shown to me, were also written about in
BH> scriptures. Such as the angel that stood over the doorway at Passover;
BH> Such as the fire on the mountains and the smoke going before me; Such
BH> as the descent of angels; such as the appearance of a thick and strong
BH> luminous arm revealed to me; such as the appearance of a key over a
BH> Jewish girl's head; such as the conflict and terror I experienced with
BH> an accusing and prosecuting angel; and that man who rides on a cloud!
BH> But with time and a struggle to accept the reality of what was
BH> happening, I came to understand what my calling in life was. And I
BH> found the meanings of the things I experienced through the testimony
of
BH> those who share in them mutually with me. Those prophets in the
BH> scripture exactly describing the things I also was seeing.
You know, they have medication now to deal with such
hallucinations.
--Wolfie
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... Marvin of Borg - EVERYTHING is irrelevant ...
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: READING INCOMPREHENSI [1]
|Date: 12 Mar 97 18:53:01
EID:1c86 226c96a0
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 33289912
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Karen Davis cast READING INCOMPREHENSI
[1] at Ken Young .. and all hell broke loose.
KD> I had to stop using Aspartame completely a year ago due to some
KD> symptoms - arthritis, my hypoglycemia going from borderline to real,
Whoa. As a chronic hypoglycaemic, I can say - don't use artificial
sweeteners. Real sugars might give you the rush/crash effect, but
that crap just won't give you anything at all in the positive side.
Your sugars'll just plummet and stay there, until you ingest
starches or real sweets.
Frankly, I find a constant small supply of sugar ingestion
_helpful_, and the worst thing the nutritionist said to me was
"don't eat sugar". Of course, for me caloric intake isn't an issue,
as I tend to lose weight like crazy with but little exertion.
If you go chronic (or if you have) don't listen to the damn
nutritionist, unless you CAN eat 6 times a day; I can't, so prefer
to keep a bottle of Coke handy. Keeps me from passing out most
days, I think.
--Wolfie
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... "Hey Dad, remember our car?" - Calvin
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Steve Hayes
|Sub: The messianic legacy
|Date: 13 Mar 97 18:12:02
EID:87d5 226d9180
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 33289913
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Steve Hayes cast The messianic legacy at All ..
and all hell broke loose.
SH> BOOK REVIEW OF "THE MESSIANIC LEGACY"
SH> Baigent, M., Leigh, R. & Lincoln, M. 1987. _The messianic legacy_. New
SH> York: Henry Holt.
SH> The main theme of this book appears to be the way in which a small
SH> semi-secret society, the Prieure de Sion is seeking to achieve its
SH> objective of restoring a Merovingian monarch to the throne of France.
SH> The Merovingians apparently claimed descent from the Old Testament
SH> House of David, and in an earlier work, _The holy blood and the holy
SH> grail_, the authors put forward the hypothesis that this decent was
SH> through Jesus or his immediate family.
It is a sort of continuation of the first book, picking up more or
less where it left off.
SH> Baigent et al. have written the book in three parts. The first, "The
SH> Messiah" deals with the idea of the Messiah in Judaism and early
SH> Christianity. The second, "The quest for meaning", deals with faith
SH> and symbolism in modern Western society. The third is a bewilderingly
SH> detailed account of contacts and connections between the Prieure de
SH> Sion and various national and international figures and organisations
SH> in the twentieth century.
SH> The connections between the three parts of the books are not at all
SH> clear, and nor it is clear how material in the first two parts
SH> contributes to the hypothesis. The authors have included a lot of
SH> material without bothering to make it clear why they have included it.
SH> The first part, on the idea of the Messiah, seems to be intended to
SH> show that a descendant of the Jewish royal line could have gone to the
SH> Celtic area, on the Western seaboard of Europe. The authors throw in
SH> facts, fallacies, speculations and conjectures, most of which seem
SH> irrelevant to whatever point it is they are trying to make. Their
SH> knowledge of history seems shaky at several points, and they don't
SH> even attempt to paper over the cracks.
Although some of their conjectures ARE interesting, nonetheless, and
seems to be what the supposed Preiure itself is going on.
SH> necessary part of fundamentalism, and even of South African apartheid.
SH> Now while it is true that some British Israelites might be
SH> fundamentalists, and that some supporters of apartheid were British
SH> Israelites, the British Israel theory was certainly not a part of
SH> fundamentalism, nor was it necessarily part of the thinking of those
SH> who formulated the apartheid policy. This is a failure in logic as
SH> well as in facts.
It might be that, writing in England, their perceptions of
fundamentalism are different than they are over here, if only
slightly. Remember many fundies here also seem to wish to want to
think of the "white race" (namely, those of English descent) as the
"chosen ones" - witness Anthony Grigor-Scott's rantings from
Australia.
SH> How it fits in with the third part is not clear, unless it is intended
SH> to show that monarchy is a powerful symbol that can be linked with
SH> faith. But if that is the intention, it certainly does not succeed.
The main point of the second part is really to show how
government/leaders/whatnot can create a climate that encourages the
public to think a certain way, or prepares it to accept what the
group in question wants it to. With Nazism, that party created the
climate it wanted, with results we all know. Similarly, the authors
seem here to be speculating whether or not the Prieure has created a
climate of sorts, at least in France, to encourage people to accept
whatever its aims are - most likely that of presenting a descendant
of Jesus who is also a rightful European ruler through the
Merovingian line. The first book indicated this much, at least,
especially in the parts where it talks about the "leaked" documents,
and all the flyers and the like about Rennes-le-Chateau and other
things that circulated in France in the 1950s from pseudonymous
authors.
SH> The third part is a very detailed account of meetings and connections
SH> of various members of the Prieure de Sion and possible members with
SH> insurers, spies, politicians and others. It seems to bear no relation
SH> to the other two parts, and the point it is trying to make is obscure.
This again is an expansion on the first book, and can't be
understood fully without relation to it. Basically it just
continues the research they did on the Preiure and interviews with
Pierre Plantard, and more background stuff. However, the second
book here also calls into question whether or not the Prieure really
exists (as the authors themselves wonder), as contact with the
organisation was cut off after Plantard apparently gave up his
position as Grand Master.
SH> The authors end up by saying that they are sympathetic towards some
of
SH> the objectives of the Prieure de Sion, but sceptical or dubious about
SH> others. The trouble is that they have not made it very clear what
SH> those aims are. They do seem to think, however, that the Prieure de
SH> Sion might be capable of producing a Messiah of the kind that the
SH> authors think Jesus actually was.
SH> Well, who knows, we might some day see some descendant of the
SH> Merovingian line riding to the EU headquarters in Brussels on a
SH> donkey. Watch the press folks!
Assuming, again, that said Preiure really exists and has existed for
as long as they claim in their roundabout way.
Anyway, whether any of this stuff is to believed or not, it
certainly makes GREAT background material for games.
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... Little old lady got mutilated last night - Werewolves of London again
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Scurvy
|Date: 09 Mar 97 17:07:00
EID:18dc 226988e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 3288fb41
-=> Quoting ROBERT CURRY to RICK MCFARLANE <=-
Good morning, Robert.
RM>> I doubt that they ever needed to.
RC> But *COULD* they have?
RM> I believe the answer to that question is a general yes
RC> Thanks for the direct answer. I'd like to follow up on it, if I may:
Be my guest.
RC> Why would an otherwise sane and rational person believe such a thing?
Because it fits with who I believe those two individuals were.
And we have already discussed the sane, rational basis of _that_ belief
over a year ago. Maybe you remember that discussion. After considerable
prodding on your part, I put aside my doubts that you would even bother
to
look at the evidence (or what I consider to be evidence) that I base my
beliefs on. I tried to describe that evidence to you. Your reply was
long on ridicule and short on substance, and the conversation went
downhill from there. Especially with Hector jumping in .
I hold very little hope that a reprise would be any more illuminating.
RM> Take care.
RC> Living here in Florida provides ample opportunity to avoid scurvy. :-)
I wonder if anyone in this echo has ever even met someone who had had
scurvy. I guess it's possible, given some of the world travelers
hereabouts, but it's such a rare condition that I kind of doubt it. It
was probably never a very common problem - otherwise selective pressures
would have weeded out the mutation that left us unable to manufacture our
own vitamin C.
Take care.
... One planet... One people.... Please!
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08H10 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 10 Mar 97 18:49:02
EID:cee5 226a9620
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323e71e
* On 07-03-97 at 12:42, DON MARTIN wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
DM> KY> If you mean against homosexuality, most don't until
DM> KY> homosexuality is shoved in their faces.
DM> RS> I disagree. Most heterosexuals will display their open hatred
DM> RS> and bigotry toward gay people without any gay people needing to
DM> RS> be present. In fact, on most occasions, homophobia is brought
up
DM> RS> by conversing about gay people among exclusively heterosexual
DM> RS> groups. The reason? Well, there aren't usually any protagonists
DM> RS> to play devil's advocate.
DM> It has been my experience that most of the greatest
DM> homophobes I have seen have never knowingly _met_ a gay
DM> person. They hate gays the same way Christers love god, by
DM> dint of imagination working in a vacuum.
Well, I think they actually have met many gay people, but have
never become aware of the fact. So, ipso facto, they don't know
of any gay people, yes... :)
DM> At least gays can be shown to exist.
Staal mode on:
Evidence?
You are in error!
Staal mode off...
Rod "...isn't denial wonderful?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The universe's most common elements: Hydrogen & Stupidity
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: Convention on the Rights
|Date: 10 Mar 97 18:49:04
EID:f381 226a9620
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323e720
* On 07-03-97 at 20:57, ALAN HESS wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Convention on the Rights" in echo Holysmoke:
AH> RS> Do you have the stuff that the Sydney Morning Herald reported
AH> RS> about online yet at the web site?
AH> Did Aussie TV show "Schindler's List?" If so, I wonder if
AH> AGS watched and laughed.
Yes, it will be televised here.
Rod "...maybe someone should ask AGS his views" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Does killing time damage eternity?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:06:06
EID:5ed0 226a98c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323eb1e
* On 05-03-97 at 18:07, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> How nice. You have set yourself up as the arbitrater of gays.
KY> RS> But remember, he's not talking about gays. He's talking about
KY> RS> homosexuality, and claims they are different topics :) So
KY> RS> different, in fact, that he's claiming he's only attacking
KY> RS> one of the two. :) :)
KY> JUst because one is against someone else's actions or
KY> attitudes, does that have to mean they are against the
KY> person as well?
I'm sorry, but your right to disagree with a person ends at
attempting to curtail their equality under the law, Ken.
I have stated dozens of examples of inequality under the law.
The last time I checked, gay people were tax-paying citizens.
Maybe gay people should stop paying taxes if they refuse to get
equal treatment from governments.
After all, if you want to treat gays unequally, why not treat
them unequally in their societal BURDEN (i.e. taxation) if you
are not willing to grant them societal RIGHTS.
KY> An example would be how I am against Paganism. Yet, I have
KY> Pagan friends I care a great deal about. I am against the
KY> actions, and some of the beliefs, but not the person.
The last time I checked, pagans were protected under the First
Amendment. I find no amendment to protect gay and lesbian people
from the discrimination you may wish to mete out against them.
KY> RS> The answer should be more than 95% saying that they "chose" to
KY> RS> even begin to validate his theory. Then the other 5% have to be
KY> RS> accounted for in the research data as being flawed responses, or
KY> RS> confused responses, etc.
KY> And what would that prove?
It would prove that conscious choice theory is invalidated.
KY> All that would be saying is that they don't believe that they
KY> made a choice.
Actually, if the study is done among all groups, it would show
that sexual orientation is not a conscious choice.
You, of course, have failed to provide any evidence that it *is*
a conscious choice. You've actually asked me to provide the
evidence for the opposing thesis, that it is not a conscious
decision. It has been provided. You have failed to invalidate
it and validate your claim yet.
You have the burden of proof of your theory. It stands as
unevidenced and unproven opinion.
KY> They would just be wrong.
Evidence for this claim that it is wrong? Why, because it
disagrees with what you have been spoonfed by your religion?
No, they would NOT be wrong. As we have shown through EVIDENCE
(yes, the magical word), homosexuality is innate because it is
not readily changeable back -- either consciously or
subconsciously.
This hence disproves the theory that people choose -- either
consciously or subconsciously -- to be gay. If it was a choice,
it could be changed back easily and readily.
Over 80 years of psychological treatments attempts, this has failed
time and time again.
Because of these reasons, your theory is invalidated. If you
care to try and validate your theory again, you must provide
evidence to validate the theory and *INVALIDATE* all previous
results.
Further, the evidence must be reproducable and reproofable.
Care to provide it? (We've asked a number of times for it!)
KY> RS> Have you considered that homosexuality has a very real
KY> RS> function in the natural world?
KY> RS> Why would he consider something that is clearly against his
KY> RS> small-mind thinking of "my way, or no way".
KY> Then just what would be that "very real function?"
The homosexual sex act has a very real function. Serving the
sexual outlet for natural homosexual sexual orientation.
KY> Just to have a cheap thrill?
I'm so sorry to hear that you think sexual expression is a
mechanical act equatable to a selfish personal act.
I bet you don't even bring your partners to orgasm, you rude,
degenerate heterosexual. How *cheap thrill*-ish of you. :)
Rod "...care to provide some evidence for all your claims yet?
Remember, you're the one that is claiming a contradictory theory
to that which is currently accepted by the scientific
community..." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Give Christians Prozac, not Government Office!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Homophobic Christanic de
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:08:08
EID:d374 226a9900
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323eb98
* On 06-03-97 at 20:35, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Homophobic Christanic dea" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> FR> Man, I reviewed television commercials that people like Staal were
KY> fr> subjected to -- television commercials put out by the United States
KY> FR> government specifically aimed toward branding non-Christians as
KY> fr> evil Communists and demonizing homosexuals as pedophiles.
KY> rs> The religious right are still peddling the latter. Pick up a
KY> rs> copy of their "Gay Rights: Special Rights" video and view some
KY> rs> really nasty propaganda.
KY> Could you be a little more specific what they got wrong in that video?
The title is a good start. Everything between the opening title
and the end of the credits is also a good description.
Now, do you claim that any of the video is actually *accurate*?
If so, which specific claims?
What are the so called "special" rights that gays want. Please
list them here:
Rod "...and remember, electronic forums don't run out of paper,
so please describe in detail :) :)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Clean mind, clean body. Take your pick.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Star Goat loves us all (
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:16:10
EID:411a 226a9a00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323ed7a
* On 06-03-97 at 20:56, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Star Goat loves us all (a" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs> Yes, well, that's always the case. The Catholic bishops have
FR> rs> always wielded a lot of power over their dominions, even if their
FR> rs> edicts are contradictory to the central command back in Roma,
FR> rs> until they REALLY step out of line.
FR> Not much different than any occupational army of the past
FR> before instant communications was a reality. Another good
FR> indication that the Christian religion is stuck in the past.
Isn't it just. The Catholics are now embracing the internet. Be
afraid... :) :)
Rod "...praise Mary, and pass Jim Staal's saddle and bit" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Do unto others, often.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Internet HolySmoke (and
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:19:12
EID:b68e 226a9a60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323ee30
* On 06-03-97 at 21:04, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Internet HolySmoke (and e" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs> I'd rather have a ticket to HOLYSMOKE than a ticket to heaven.
FR> rs> Hey, I think I just invented a bumpersticker :)
FR> FR> Oh I _like_ it!
FR> rs> It goes in your tagline file now, Brother, that's an edict :)
FR> I'll need it in writing. }:-} And Goat will have to sign it.
Well, consider this writing, and it is sealed in the Goatish
Fragrance :)
"I'd rather have a ticket to HOLYSMOKE than Heaven!"
FR> In fact I had been thinking about getting "Star Goat!" bumper stickers
made.
FR> Everyone at work will know what it means, of course, yet it
FR> would make people wonder. Then I could put mysterious
FR> signs on overpasses. }:-}
And on bus shelters, and ads in the local news paper :) Get some
people really interested :) :)
FR> FR> What we need is a central information
FR> FR> center where the general public can telephone voice and ask
FR> FR> about local HolySmoke access in their area.
FR> rs> Sounds like a web page leading to a FIDO revival. In fact, I
FR> rs> think that we should make serious attempts to gate Holysmoke to
FR> rs> alt.atheism.holysmoke again :)
FR> It would be an interesting experiment. I don't think
FR> anything ever came _in_ from Internet to HolySmoke. And I
FR> don't have the resources to do it -- my bandwidth is taken-
FR> up filling file requests, pretty much.
Well, it's a nice idea for the future.
FR> One of the things which I've started doing is posting a new
FR> web page called PARTLIST.HTM -- participant list. It lists
FR> information about the systems which participate in
FR> HolySmoke, sorted by network address so that if someone on
FR> Internet wants to find a known FidoNet system which
FR> participates he/she may do so.
Now that is a novel and useful resource!
FR> ~*~ God loves you. He can free you from the horrible temptations of
your
FR> social disorder. - Johnny Mckinney (Talking about homosexuality)
Strange. I thought he was talking about Christianity and their
dysfunctional alternative lifestyle... :) :)
Rod "...Christians need salvation from their sick, degenerate
lifestyle where they try and recruit and abuse children..." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't buy furs. It takes trees to make protest signs.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Operation HolySmoke
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:24:14
EID:37cb 226a9b00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323ef5e
* On 06-03-97 at 21:21, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Operation HolySmoke" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs> I have? I thought I was just being
FR> rs> a general nuisance to the Kwisters :)
FR> FR> The two are mutually supportive. }:-}
FR> rs> But of course they are. That's how we get high-quality
FR> rs> taglines *and* Skeptic Tank BBS staffers.
FR> It's great that you've noticed. We've done things in HolySmoke for
FR> the past six years or so yet nothing serious has been colaborated on.
We could start with the "Creationist Debunking Home Page" :) Get
all of the disprovations of Laurie Appleton, and do them as a FAQ.
FR> Time is the problem, not a lack of desire to become activists.
I understand this desperately. I am single-handedly controlling
the equal marriage rights home page. :) :)
FR> I hope that The Skeptic Tank will be serious. I think
FR> yourself and the other very select staff members will not
FR> regret signing-on even if -- as I suspect might happen --
FR> everything comes together and _we_all_ will be asked for
FR> reference and research materials along our selected areas
FR> of expertiece (mine won't be spelling.) }:-}
Well, I'm sure that the Skeptic Tank can become a lot like the
"Why Christians Suck" site, but on a more
religiously-indiscriminate manner. A "Why Religoids and Culties
Suck" Site :)
http://www.paranoia.com/~wcs -- Why Christians Suck!
FR> rs> No. We don't hate the sin. We love the sin of religiosity. It
FR> rs> brings us morons. We LOVE the sin and hate the sinners.... :)
FR> Yes, let's not hate the Negro, let's hate the black skin.
Jim and Ken are such wonderfully transparent individuals. :)
Their viewpoints are just *never* controversial, neither their
allegories. :)
FR> rs> That should now go in your quote file. Immediately. I insist.
FR> rs> :) :) That's two "innocent straight people" around here who
FR> rs> aren't so "innocent" (You re: reach-around and Katherine re: glory
FR> rs> holes) :)
FR> Please. I just had dinner.
But it certainly wasn't at the establishment mentioned above. I
think you'll have to ask Jimson about that sort of activity :) :)
Rod "...praise Jesus, and get thee behind Jimson!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Live sex in a Toyota nixes evil
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Put Mormons in the soup
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:28:16
EID:3b53 226a9b80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323f050
* On 06-03-97 at 21:31, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Put Mormons in the soup" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs> Mormons: Hi, we're from the JWs/CJCLDSs. Can we come
FR> rs> in today and talk to you about our faith?
FR> FR> Translation: Let us tell you how badly damaged we are and
FR> FR> what our masters have programmed us to spout off
FR> FR> unthinkingly.
FR> rs> Come on, Fredric, you escaped them. There is hope :)
FR> I was never a believer, though. Some how I managed to
FR> acquire an education. I think it's due to the amount of
FR> reading I did as a youth.
I eat books. I hardly ever read them :)
FR> Reguardless the fuckers still
FR> keep me on their mailing lists as one of them -- even
FR> though I've had to brush them off the front step at gun
FR> point and had the cops return some of their bizarre hate
FR> mail in person.
You should put the bizarre stuff on the web. Show them how
foolish they are. Did you know the Mormons in California were
told to (from the pulpit) to activate and lobby on behalf of the
church their local legislators to ban same-gender marriages.
Can anyone spell tax-exemption violation? :) :)
FR> rs> diary? I hear that Mormons are commanded not
FR> rs> to masturbate, and to keep a diary or small
FR> rs> calendar to mark if they succumb.
FR> FR> I would expect them to ask where you heard such a thing.
FR> rs> Why, from the Internet :)
FR> A place of possible learning?! That's demonic.
Yes, isn't it just :) :)
FR> fR> Vindicate their fears and hatred! Loving it!
FR> rs> The said implement can be whipped out just for a laugh among
FR> rs> my friends too, who know of this story, and often have it retold
FR> rs> in the perspective that they are the Mormons :)
FR> Like the Air Force pilots I grew up with. Hold it aloft
FR> and manouver it back and forth while explaining, "There I
FR> was..."
ahahahahahah :)
FR> ~*~ Do you have a single SHRED OF EVIDENCE?? Or are you just going
FR> to spew scripture like a busted shitpipe? - Gary Glunz
Someone should ask this of Jimson/Ken Young. They have been
putting up a lot of unevidenced crap of late.
Rod "...I'm getting sick of the whine that goes 'You are in
error' from the Staalin!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Dance is thought mad by those who can't hear the music
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Skeptic Tank Files
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:31:18
EID:ff53 226a9be0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323f106
* On 06-03-97 at 21:45, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Skeptic Tank Files" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs> That's really quite large, but if you have a
FR> rs> permanent link to the net, it could be done :)
FR> I'm thinking about a Basic Rate ISDN link which would be up
FR> 24hours. If I can get the funding I think I'll get we'll
FR> go to a T1 span.
You could consider 57.6K modem link, as a start, 24 hours a day
:) :)
FR> rs> Using unix, you could have long filenames
FR> rs> that are descriptive of the files ;)
FR> Yeah. Yet I would alienate 90% of the people who use the information.
You can still have the ftp site available by the web :)
FR> FR> It _is_ working great. Now people can request that ZIP
FR> FR> files be automatically unzipped before they're sent.
FR> rs> Wouldn't it be just better to be able to anonymously ftp them?
I
FR> rs> find it quite a pain to have to request them then decode them :(
FR> rs> :(
FR> Sure it would be better. But I need ISP space or a
FR> constant link. I wouldn't make them a FTP site, however.
FR> I would still use web pages to contain the names and
FR> descriptions and one would need to click on the files to
FR> request as usual -- only they would be sent immediately to
FR> the web browser client rather than their mail client.
You can have the HTML names and descriptions, and then get the
files by ftp link :) Means they can get the files
instantaneously.
FR> I'm finding that people _like_ to request files then log off
FR> their ISP. They like collecting the files they requested the next day.
FR> If they select a bunch of files and start receiving them right
FR> away they're more apt to drop carrier out of impatience.
You can download in the background. :)
Rod "...most browsers allow you to do so" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Bugger me with a fish fork!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: For those who missed it
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:38:20
EID:9fcd 226a9cc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323f2ac
* On 06-03-97 at 21:48, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "For those who missed it" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs> No. The real Lon Mabon (don't know about his middle initial) is
FR> rs> a homophobic piece of knuckledragging Christian trash who has
FR> rs> tried to pass measures in Oregon depriving gay people of equal
FR> rs> protection before the law.
FR> I've been piecing that picture together this last week, yes.
Well, the picture is correct. Do a search on Altavista for his
name and read some of the filthy deeds he does to oppress gays.
FR> rs> Jimson possibly improves Mabon's character... But not by much.
FR> I think Bathroom Staal ___approves___ of Lon S. Mabon and
FR> wishes to emulate him. Perhaps that's why he used the name.
I have no doubt about this. But we'd better ask Jimson, just in
case he wishes to deny it... :) After all, we are probably "in
error!" :) :)
FR> rs> I think it is time to archive this area to stop Staal!
FR> FR> I archive every single message.
FR> rs> Good. Grab my posts to Jimbozo about "Christian domestic
FR> rs> terrorism"... You'll find them a scream. I've reposted the post
FR> rs> I asked him to answer a number of times. He's not answered it.
FR> I read most of them, as I recall. He is ___denying___ that
FR> Christians are capable of such things... which ignores his
FR> death cult's history entirely.
Of course, I have articles to disprove him. Remember, Paul Hill
-- abortion clinic doctor murderer -- was a CHRISTIAN PREACHER!
Rod "...how could we forget *that* Christianity in that
terrorist!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus saves! Krishna invests! Cthulhu forcloses!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:39:22
EID:d18f 226a9ce0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323f2ea
* On 06-03-97 at 21:49, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> > American Family Association's "Homosexuality in America" Expose:
FR> > http://www.afa.net/toc.htm
FR> [...cuts...]
FR> Thanks. Got them! I'll check each one out in detail.
So what did you think of those acts of Christian perversion?
Rod "...heheheheeh" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The only rational solution to your problem is suicide
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Pedophile Christian cook
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:42:24
EID:f384 226a9d40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323f3a0
* On 06-03-97 at 21:53, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Pedophile Christian cook" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs > Oh, but the john1@heterosexual.com is a most fun vanity
FR> rs> email address. You do know of Fred Cherry, don't you?
FR> That name doesn't ring any particular bells, no.
He's a Jewish atheist (his words), and he's a sick little puppy.
He's also my nemesis on USENET :)
Example: he says I'm a NAMBLA-supporting, anti-freedom Australian
homonazi.
Go figure :)
FR> rs> There's a message on Usenet about how they were banned from the
FR> rs> Portland, OR, parade (or was it Seattle, WA?) and they still
FR> rs> showed up and unfurled their banners and proclaimed to be part of
FR> rs> the "mainstream gay movement" and when interviewed by the press
FR> rs> they claimed that "gay and lesbian people support NAMBLA".
FR> Damned assholes. And 90% of the populace probably believes it.
Oh, I'm sure that the newsbyte has made it onto that lovely new
video "Gay Rights: Special Rights II -- Their Claims Continue".
FR> rs> It's really quite a shame. In the pride parade above (Oregon or
FR> rs> Washington, I can't remember) everyone at the pride organising
FR> rs> committee voted unanimously to ban NAMBLA, except for the one
FR> rs> person who showed up petitioning the group from -- you guessed it
FR> rs> -- NAMBLA.
FR> Do they spout-off about "Constitutional rights" and
FR> "freedom of speech?" I think I saw some of that in some of
FR> the newsgroups as well.
Oh, yes. They were claiming their First Amendment rights were
being violated -- yadda yadda.
Rod "...sick bastards" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: Name alternatives to eternal nothingness
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Skeptic Tank Staff
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:48:26
EID:ac08 226a9e00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323f50a
* On 06-03-97 at 22:01, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Skeptic Tank Staff" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> FR> If anyone is willing to handle questions
FR> fr> which come in concerning human psychology,
FR> rs> I thought that was me :) Handling the social science aspects ;)
FR> FR> But you would need to cover and provide contemporary human
FR> FR> psychology acedemia in your responses, too.
FR> rs> I'm already doing that. I have an arsenal of APA documents ;)
FR> rs> Don't you see Ken Young screaming as he drowns in his own
FR> rs> ignorance over sexual orientation?
FR> Oh man, yeps.
Isn't it fun? He STILL keeps claiming that EVERYONE is wrong
(heterosexuals too) when they say they never consciously chose.
And he STILL claims that science proves him right, when it
actually disproves him... :)
FR> As for K Y Jelly, he's suffering from being exposed to the
FR> truth here and the deceptions his masters have programmed
FR> him with for decades. Guess which one he'll cling to?
In fact, the more you expose them to the truth, the more
violently nasty they get. See some of the nasty stuff that
Jimson's spewing because he's taking full salvos of exocets up
the ass.
I have a rule -- they perform a fly by with afterburners on, I
launch an exocet and shoot them outta the sky :) :)
FR> rs> Remember, as atheists, we do no good. We really should start a
FR> rs> Skeptic Resources Directory (like the Queer Resources Directory),
FR> rs> or heck, just go out for the Anti-Religion Resource Site :)
FR> FR> Yes, we should. When can you start? }:-}
FR> rs> I'll start coding a web index structure ;)
FR> You're a good guy, Rod. One of the good guys. Really.
Nah, I'm not really. I'm one of those seditious atheists who do
no good :) :)
FR> I've got a list of theings that still need to be done ---
FR> IRS factors in greatly since they seized all my liquid
FR> assets, including ther legal fund I had thought would be
FR> safe.
2-to-1 odds that some Christian (probably Jimbozo) starts
gloating about this.
FR> At the top of the list is the "Profit Keepers" HTML
FR> page which will be a reformat of my notes I took when the
FR> PK master was interviewed on the radio.
Oh, I'm sure we could expand the resources of that page quickly.
A phone call to their head office and a request for their
financial accounts (as a non-profit organisation, they must file
statements every so often, right?) and have a field day :) :)
FR> rs> :) :) Well, I'll handle them. I've yet to have a good rant. I
FR> rs> think the Skeptic Tank needs a bit of publicity. Should I
FR> rs> post an invite, say, through alt.religion.christian.knuckledraggers?
FR> rs> :) :) :)
FR> Why sure! Since I've got your official go-ahead, I'll get
FR> that added to the pages right away. And wouldn't it be
FR> cool to let everyone know Promise Keepers is a cult?
Yes, wouldn't it just! :) :) BTW, if you go and check out the
Why Christians Suck site (http://www.paranoia.com/~wcs/index.html)
you will see some of the fun comments and feedback they get from
kooks :) :)
They were all accused of being homosexual satanists, I think :) :)
Rod "...a scream of a laugh, that site :) :)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * First rule of intelligent tinkering: Save all the parts
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: The Jesus was homosexual
|Date: 10 Mar 97 19:52:28
EID:3d07 226a9e80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323f5fc
* On 07-03-97 at 19:36, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "The Jesus was homosexual" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs> Ken did so in one post to me just earlier. Claimed I was
FR> rs> obsessive because i had the gall to defend my sexuality.
FR> He doesn't know the references to the naked boy the Jesus
FR> mythos was with in the garden?
Probably not. He probably doesn't realise he's worshipping a
dead homo on a stick either! :) :)
FR> rs> They tried to determine canon from time to time though. There
FR> rs> was some success. Though we still have the apocrypha to read if
FR> rs> we get bored :) :)
FR> And, when we tell believers what their religion was like
FR> not to loong ago, we'll get to listen to the screams "IS
FR> NOT!"
Not as satisfying as "You are in Error!" or "Evidence????!" :)
Rod "...and to think I have more in the arsenal of freedom!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Bugger me with a fish fork!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Ken Young Jelly's evil h
|Date: 10 Mar 97 20:02:30
EID:b0ad 226aa040
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3323f856
* On 07-03-97 at 19:47, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ken Young Jelly's evil ha" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> rs> I cannot believe he has YET to justify his assumptions that:
FR> rs> 1) only one sexual orientation is the correct one
FR> His masters tell him it's so... That's all the justification he needs.
Too bad he looks like a fool when asked for evidence, and then
the hypocrisy that his brother in Christ asks the exact same
question of us when we make claims... :) If we give evidence to
Jimson when he asks, why doesn't Ken give us evidence when we ask?
FR> rs> 2) that it is his sexual orientation if it is
FR> Those who spew the most hatred are hiding something.
He's undoubtedly repressed, about his own or someone's sexual
orientation. He's in denial over something.
FR> rs> 3) that everyone is "born straight"
FR> Thus denying every scientific inquiry which finds otherwise.
And the research each year continues to support the theory that
all sexual orientation is not chosen and not changeable.
Strange. Skin colour is not chosen and not changeable either!
Surprise surprise!
FR> rs> 4) that gay people "choose".
FR> Sure, just like blacks choose their skin hue.
But they can! If I were to apply Ken's reasoning (especially now
he's said that gays can marry, they just have to marry a member
of the opposite sex) the argument would be:
"If black people wish to have equal rights, all they
have to do is white makeup, and act like a white person.
There is no need to extend rights to black people if
they can be white..."
If he were to actually say that, he would be condemned by most.
Of course, however, since gay people are just dirt in his mind,
he says the same thing about gays (that they should be straight
to get rights, and that it's ok to punish gays for being gay when
they can be straight)...
FR> rs> He's not answered any one of the four with any scientific
FR> rs> evidence, despite having scientific evidence TO THE CONTRARY
FR> rs> being provided.
FR> I don't think any of these fundies ever learn.
They just deny harder and grasp the dogma even harder...
FR> He doubtless knows that his masters have been lying to him and
FR> he doubtless knows he's full of puppy shit, yet it is his
FR> _duty_ to try to lie to everyone as well as himself.
Denial denial denial. That's all he has done. He's not provided
evidence of his denial however, nor a disprovation of my
statements of current scientific understanding :)
FR> Ken has _faith_ in his hatred and bigiotry, just as he has faith in
his
FR> master's deity constructs. To retain such faith, man, I'm
FR> not at all surprised he has to try even pathetic lies to
FR> try to convince himself.
I'm not surprised at all, Brother Fredric!
FR> rs> He still spews the same shit, as if he were Laurie Appleton on
FR> rs> Creationism/Evolutionism.
FR> No difference whatsodamn ever.
Exactly. In fact, it's the same "fingers-in-ears" routine. He
restates his "theory" even though we just debunked him, and
claims it is right, no matter what science says -- yet claims his
theory fits scientific reality and is truth.
FR> rs> You debunk him, and he just blinks and ignores the fact that he's
FR> rs> been debunked. He just restates the allegation ignorantly.
FR> Those very words have been said in this forum before --
FR> after getting the truth shoved into their noses they blink
FR> and spout off the same old lies. Knowingly.
It's so typically Christian. Lies lies lies. Deception
deception deception. Denial denial denial. Finally, lies lies
lies again.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Rod "...it's sickening how they are ignorant morons" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Do not adjust your mind, the fault is with reality.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: You won't believe this q
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:41:32
EID:060b 226b5520
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324c65c
* On 07-03-97 at 19:47, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "You won't believe this qu" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> FR> If one's religion is a choice, so is his sexual orientation.
FR> FR> Just because gays will go to Hell, does not mean they aren't
FR> FR> loved. - Ken Young
FR> FR> To all you Christians: He's one of yours.
FR> rs> I hope it remains eternal in your
FR> rs> quote file, Fred. The asshole deserves it.
FR> You betcher ass it will. It goes right to the top.
Why thank you for your no uncertain concern for the safety of
my ass in the event of a betting situation :) :)
But seriously... Ken deserves to be reminded of his stupidity at
every turn.
Rod "... of course, eliciting more silly notions from him would
also be a good thing(tm)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Person+delusion=psychosis. People+delusion=religion.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Quote!
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:42:34
EID:e8ad 226b5540
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324c69a
* On 07-03-97 at 19:52, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Quote!" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> KY> I would say that you should be what you were made to be.
FR> KY> If you were created white, stay that way. If you were made
FR> KY> male, stay that way. And if you were made heterosexual, AS
FR> KY> WE ALL WERE, stay that way.
FR> rs> For the quote file, Brother Fredric.
FR> Yep, that one goes in. Look how shrill the guy's getting
FR> trying to convince himself.
This is true. The more debunked they are the more extreme and
convoluted their explanations become for their irrationality.
Rod "...I'm wondering what we can get him to say next?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Necrotelecomnicon: Book of dead phone numbers
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: your deity
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:44:36
EID:87ea 226b5580
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324c714
* On 07-03-97 at 13:00, ROBERT CURRY wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "your deity" in echo Holysmoke:
RC> RS> Unlike most atheists, I'm not a "fallen" case. I didn't get
RC> RS> Christianity foisted onto me as a child by parental compulsion.
RC> RS> I've never had to know your God. I am your worst enemy because
RC> RS> of it, because you cannot try and pull the heartstrings about
RC> RS> how much better it is to have a God :)
RC> JS> You have a god.
RC> Interesting. Have you potty trained it?
How did you guess I was slysdexic?
RC> JS> We disagree.
RC> So you're going to hell. Ah, the joys of religion!
Praise Jesus and pass the condemnatory condiments!
Rod "...it's such a last supper for Jimson" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * If this is reality I want a refund!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:48:38
EID:4da6 226b5600
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324c806
* On 08-03-97 at 15:34, ROBERT CURRY wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
RC> KY> FIne, if you are a guy, kiss your boyfriend, has disgusting
RC> KY> as I might think it is.
RC> RC> Somehow I doubt that your feelings are really relevant to those
RC> RC> of two men (or two women) who are in love and committed to
RC> RC> each other, unless you happen to be one of the men, of course.
RC> RC> Clearly your aversion is your own problem, not to be thrown
RC> RC> in the face of those who have done nothing whatsoever to harm you.
RC> RC> Live and let live.
RC> RS> He cannot. He is Christian. Letting people live is *not their
RC> RS> way*. Interfering, destroying, attacking -- that's the only
RC> RS> think Christians of his ilk know.
RC> Not all Christians are so hateful and intolerant as this one.
Of course not. I have many a good friend who happens to be
Christian. Those friends are intelligent enough to not let their
dogma get in the way of reality.
RC> RC>> The world will be a better place, I think, when self-righteous
RC> RC>> prudes quit advertising their bigoted prudery.
RC> KY> If you mean against homosexuality,
RC> RC> I mean bigoted prudery of ANY and ALL types. What concern is
RC> RC> it of yours to interfere in the most personal relationships
RC> RC> of others who have done you no harm?
RC> RS> But, it's his RELIGION! He reckons he should have that right.
RC> Religion has always provided a handy excuse for pious hatred, as
RC> well as justifiction for it (depending on the religion, as some are
RC> considerably more vicious in their doctrines than others). No one
RC> needs an excuse to live and let live. Religion is superfluous.
I find it most hypocritical that he claims that the mere
exercising of the first amendment right to free speech, and the
rights of freedom of association that gay people express at a
pride parade -- and the associated demands of equality -- should
not be allowed...
Yet if we were to suggest that Christians should be stripped of
their right to protest, and to freely meet, and to associate, and
to speak out... we'd be condemned by them as unAmerican.
Why is their activity not unAmerican, but any potential reaction
by us would be?
Rod "...another example of Ken Young's hypocrisy, possibly?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus Christ Super Fraud. The Musical!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:50:40
EID:f259 226b5640
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324c880
* On 09-03-97 at 10:20, STEVE QUARRELLA wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ask And Ye Shall Receive" in echo Holysmoke:
SQ> RS> You could play sexual encounter technique four. Ask the Mormon
SQ> RS> lads if they'd like to make it a threesome/foursome with you and
SQ> RS> your wife :) :)
SQ> I'm a little more creative than that. "We'd like to put
SQ> some nipple clamps on the two of you and burn you with
SQ> cigarettes and hot coffee." :)
I thought that was one of the major activities of the cult of
repression called Mormonism :) :) :)
SQ> SQ>> D'you believe in Jesus?
SQ> SQ>> Why...yes, I do.
SQ> SQ>> Well, you're gonna meet 'im.
SQ> RS> :) :) :) Did you ever have to keep a wank diary, Steve? :)
SQ> "Wank diary?"
Yes, wank diary. Apparently when the Mormons were going through
a stage of extreme prudery in the 70s, the elders proposed ways
to stop Mormons tossing :)
Rod "...one involved marking a calendar with black days when one
succumbed to the evils of masturbation -- i.e. a wank diary -- in
the attempt to get three whole months without 'a black mark'" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Satanic: Anything a fundie Christian doesn't like
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: In the news
|Date: 11 Mar 97 10:58:42
EID:b339 226b5740
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ca62
* On 09-03-97 at 10:22, STEVE QUARRELLA wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "In the news" in echo Holysmoke:
SQ> The best part is that our satellite package just added a
SQ> bunch of Jesus programming, and they DROPPED a bunch of
SQ> stations. We're calling them to say "Hey, we prepaid: We
SQ> want the stations that were dropped, or else we pull the
SQ> plug on this baby."
You should call on them and claim that you prepaid for the
provision of channels under the impression of the programming
that you were receiving, and that the programming change (because
it was not reasonably announced or given notice) is a breach of
contract.
Then demand some sort of refund in compensation for not only the
loss of good channels, but for the transmission of "pornographic
filth" into your home. Then cite how the bible is filthy,
disgusting material not fit for broadcasting to innocent
children and families.
SQ> RS> There is currently a concerted effort to get cable providers to
SQ> RS> drop the Family channel.
SQ> Oh? On the part of whom?
A whole bunch of liberal organisations that are against Pat
Robertson. The reason? Well, the Family Channel carries his
religious broadcasting three times a day in most areas. The 700
Club and it's "news" program contain filthy and degrading
concepts and yet is rated as "family" programming.
They provide an information pack of quotations that Pat & Co have
used on the program to malign groups of people and spread hatred,
or the lies and mistruths in their reporting.
The current campaign calls for local cable operators to turn
*off* the Family Channel during the timeslots in which Pat's
preaching occurs.
And if enough people start complaining, maybe they'll drop the
whole channel. Believe it or not, the Family channel is no
longer expanding onto new cable systems faster than it's being
deleted from other cable systems.
Their potential audience reach is diminishing :) :)
Rod "...I'll try and find more information on the internet" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Found God? What, have you lost him *again*?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Mormongate
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:03:44
EID:9dac 226b5860
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324cb90
* On 09-03-97 at 10:23, STEVE QUARRELLA wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Mormongate" in echo Holysmoke:
SQ> RS> I'd write them a short and sharp letter telling them in no
SQ> RS> uncertain terms to NEVER have any of them, nor their agents, nor
SQ> RS> church representatives, trespass on the premises, nor come within
SQ> RS> 100 metres of any member of my family, nor to communicate by
SQ> RS> telephone or letter ever again.
SQ> You don't understand how these people work, Rod. That's an INVITATION
to
SQ> them to come back and ask "What have we done wrong? Have
SQ> we offended you in some way?"
Exactly. :) :) That's exactly what you want. If you get it
drafted by a lawyer's office, it will mean that you can have a
legitimate complaint to walk up to your local police station and
claim that your lawyers have sent cease-and-desist requests, "and
the came back"... :)
SQ> Such a letter needs to be written by a -law office- and include
SQ> an ultimatum involving legal action.
Why, of course :) But in the end, it will incite them to come
back and harrass you after you take out a cease-and-desist
restraint order. When they start breaching that, then it's a
criminal act :)
SQ> RS> I would NOT give the Mormon cult an explanation of my
SQ> RS> "experiences". Knowing most culties, they'd attempt to use this
SQ> RS> as a "latch on"...
SQ> You simply convey to them that they have come to your house
SQ> and annoyed you. Period. One of the things that really
SQ> annoys my wife about all this is that these people simply
SQ> believe that their targets will just drop what they're doing
SQ> to listen to theological nonsense.
Have you thought about going around to their place and preaching
the word of StarGoat(tm)? :) :)
SQ> In fact, she tells me that if this
SQ> HADN'T been their modus operandi, she'd be less hostile to
SQ> them. So, folks, they cut their own throats. :)
*bwhahahaha* :)
SQ> RS> That is, a return letter from the cult wanting to *help
SQ> RS> you*, and hence keep annoying oneself.
SQ> I've been there.
However, there is method in the sending to the cult of a letter
stating that you will no longer accept any approach from them,
their agents, etc, in any way whatsoever, and then seeking an
order to get them to cease and desist.
They will just be unable to do anything but follow their
temptation to break it, and suffer the criminal legal
consequences.
Rod "...and to know that you have won, of course!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Dance is thought mad by those who can't hear the music
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:14:48
EID:f3e8 226b59c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ce28
* On 07-03-97 at 05:55, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KD> KY> Also, if it was a mental disease, they wouldn't be able to help
being
KD> KY> gay, and they can..
KD> They clearly cannot change themselves, Ken.
Nor, mind you, has therapy ever been able to change any sexual
orientation. Therapy has been able to change sexual behaviour in
those confused of their sexual orientation -- that's all. But
psychology no longer treats sexual orientation as a disorder, but
as a quite natural and normal human state.
Rod "...Ken will now deny, 100% guaranteed" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Paranoia is *total* awareness!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: hateful
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:17:50
EID:ee1c 226b5a20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324cede
* On 03-03-97 at 18:27, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
on the topic of "hateful" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> I may hate the lifestyle, but not the inidividuals.
KY> RC> Why are you so hateful?
KY> I'm not. But everyone has something they hate, whether it
KY> be a certain type of morality, political affiliation,
KY> religious group, or whatever.
Hatred must be justified, and individual. Hating groups of
people based on the characteristics of a small number of people
within that group is wrong.
Saying that something is true for the whole group based upon the
selection of a few individuals from that group and erroneously
claiming that it applies to all members of that group is also
disingenuous.
You have done this, Ken.
KY> But a person is only full of hate if they hate the people,
KY> or if they hate what a person cannot help.
So you admit you are full of hate when it comes to your hateful
intolerance of gay people -- a group of people that it has been
proven in time and time again that their sexual orientation is
quite natural, normal, and innate.
Rod "...thanks for your frank admission, Ken" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Bugger me with a fish fork!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: You *didn't* answer this
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:24:52
EID:7b36 226b5b00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d084
* On 06-03-97 at 00:47, KEN YOUNG wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "You *didn't* answer this" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> Oh, my mistake. It's obvious the Oklahoma City Bombing, uh, err,
KY> RS> Earthquake was caused by people who proclaim fundamental faith
KY> RS> in Jesu..
KY> JS> Evidence???
KY> But he isn't a Christian.. Surely you know by now, non-
KY> Christians don't have to provide evidence for anything THEY
KY> say.
You are as disingenuous as Jimson. I have clearly showed that
the overwhelming cases of domestic terrorism carried out in the
US is done by Christians.
It is you and Jimson that choose to stick your fingers in the
ears and scream: "IS NOOOOOOOOOOOOT!"
KY> And actually, there is reason to believe that at least some
KY> within the govt. had something to do with it.
And what reasons are there to believe that there are people
within government involved in the very personal terroristic acts
of people like John Salvi or Paul Hill?
There is more reason to believe that members inside the CHRISTIAN
CHURCHES have more of an involvement in their acts, given the
fact that they have listened to the propaganda of others so much
that they enacted their version of justice based on their
extremist views.
Rod "...so, what's this reason that you say exists to believe
that certain people in government is involved in domestic
Christian terrorism? Or is it another one of your cute little
'theories' that you come up with when you are trying to escape
the fact that you've been completely debunked?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Yahweh (n): not *my* way
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Educational Experience
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:28:54
EID:da3b 226b5b80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d176
* On 07-03-97 at 13:00, ROBERT CURRY wrote to JIM STAAL,
on the topic of "Educational Experience" in echo Holysmoke:
RC> RS> So Jesus fucks you up the ass without a condom and his
RC> RS> Holy Sperm lives within you. No wonder you're so resistive
RC> RS> to wanting to leave your gay loverboy deity construct! :)
RC> JS> May your lips be seared with hot coals, blasphemer!
RC> You forgot the pitchfork-through-his-head wish.
Oh, dear, he did. He can't look like a country bumpkin hick
without wavin' a pitchfork around and accusing someone of being
SAYTAN! :)
Rod "...I wonder what Jimson wants to do to me if he ever met me
in person. Surely it would be violent! :) :) I hope so!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't just stand there!!! Kneel!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Darryl's Loverboy
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:29:56
EID:9200 226b5ba0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d1b4
* On 09-03-97 at 10:57, STEVE QUARRELLA wrote to DAVID RICE,
on the topic of "Darryl's Loverboy" in echo Holysmoke:
SQ> DR> [Blushing] Aw, shuck. twern't nothin'. I particularly like
SQ> DR> the "anal fantasies" part-+- it has been my observation
SQ> DR> that Fundamentalist Christians often have a fixation with
SQ> DR> butts for some reason.
SQ> We had Trent Hall over in THUMP_IT claiming that "scat
SQ> play" is exclusive to homosexuals. He never DID cough up
SQ> the evidence for that, of course. He always seems to run
SQ> out of time, for some reason...
Sounds like that he's been quoting "Dr" Paul Cameron or one of
his stooges at NARTH again :)
I have the ways to debunk such a fool, if you are interested :)
:)
Rod "...hehehehee" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Person+delusion=psychosis. People+delusion=religion.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Darryl's Loverboy
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:30:58
EID:9200 226b5bc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d1f2
* On 09-03-97 at 10:57, STEVE QUARRELLA wrote to DAVID RICE,
on the topic of "Darryl's Loverboy" in echo Holysmoke:
SQ> DR> [Blushing] Aw, shuck. twern't nothin'. I particularly like
SQ> DR> the "anal fantasies" part-+- it has been my observation
SQ> DR> that Fundamentalist Christians often have a fixation with
SQ> DR> butts for some reason.
SQ> We had Trent Hall over in THUMP_IT claiming that "scat
SQ> play" is exclusive to homosexuals. He never DID cough up
SQ> the evidence for that, of course. He always seems to run
SQ> out of time, for some reason...
Oh, I forgot. Check out
http://www.christiangallery.com/sick1.html for an example that
*disproves* this guy.
Rod "...hehehehee" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * It's great to be from a Christian Family. Far From!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: 666
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:36:00
EID:8505 226b5c80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d320
* On 07-03-97 at 18:54, ANTHONY GRIGOR-SCOTT wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "666" in echo Holysmoke:
AG> Does your vocabulary reflect the character and proclivities of
AG> your mother? Or is is your father, the Devil?
Watched Schindler's List lately, Anthony? Or would your eyes burn?
Rod "...I love you! Church of Barney!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * REALITY.SYS corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Bathroom Staal knows wha
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:40:02
EID:f915 226b5d00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d412
* On 05-03-97 at 20:05, FREDRIC RICE wrote to BATHROOM STAAL,
on the topic of "Bathroom Staal knows what" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> Have any evidence for those gods of yours, homophobic,
FR> woman-hating bigot? Any at all? Well?
FR> I am condemning no one. The homosexual who sexually practices
FR> his homosexuality condemns himself." - Jim Staal
FR> How about that hatred of yours, dear? Looks good, doesn't it?
Yes, doesn't it?
FR> No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you
were
FR> gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not have
FR> happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
FR> How about that one, huh? Think your gods are going to
FR> applaud that bit of hate rhetoric, dear?
Of course they will. Let's apply it to another area.
These things happened because you shouted out that you
were black. If you had kept your negroidism to yourself,
these things would not have happened to you now, would
they?
-- Idiot Jimson logic, as applied racially.
Of course, the above shows that Jimson advocates hate and
violence against those who refuse to remain silent -- which is
still an advocation of terror and hatred against a group.
His claim that the victims of the terror and hatred have some
control over the occurrence of this terror is fallacious.
Rod "...but he won't admit that, Fredric, I bet" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Only those who attempt the absurd achieve the impossible
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Book of Life
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:41:04
EID:1cb7 226b5d20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d450
* On 05-03-97 at 21:02, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ANTHONY GRIGOR-SCOTT,
on the topic of "Book of Life" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> ags> Christian greetings in the precious Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
FR> You like to be butt fucked, right? But not
FR> everbody enjoys your idea of fun, dear. Not everyone is
FR> into sweaty Alpha Male anal games, you know... Not that
FR> I'm against homosexuals, mind you... I'm one of the most
FR> gay friendly guys you're likely to find. It's just that I
FR> have to wonder about people who employ the audacity of
FR> giving everyone a homosexual lover Alpha Male deity
FR> construct.
And what a double bonus it is! They even get a free spooky ghost
decal, and a dead homo on a stick to worship! :) :)
Rod "...praise Jesus for his split personality dead homo on a
stick god of vengeance *and* love lunacy!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Necrotelecomnicon: Book of dead phone numbers
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Ken Young's hatred
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:44:06
EID:1a73 226b5d80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d506
* On 08-03-97 at 09:26, FREDRIC RICE wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Ken Young's hatred" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> ky> I tend to think that I would know more about who I hate, than you
would.
FR> We all know about your hatred and bigotry since you elected to open
your own
FR> mouth and tell us.
I've always found it hypocritical of Ken Young to claim to know
the minds and workings of the minds of people in regard to sexual
orientation better than the owners of such minds, yet gets all
uppity about the suggestion that we may have a theory for the
hatred in his mind.
How hypocritical.
Maybe if he claims he has a right to make claims about our minds,
we will make claims about his.
Rod "...praise idiot Jesus for idiot Staal and idiot Young" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't get stuck in a closet. Wear yourself out.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 11 Mar 97 11:52:08
EID:b86b 226b5e80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324d6e8
* On 03-03-97 at 18:04, KEN YOUNG wrote to DAVE HAMILTON,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> DH> I'm beginning to suspect you're trolling. Why would blacks *want*
KY> DH> to "help" being black, Ken?
KY> DH> Why would homosexuals want to change, Ken?
KY> DH> If you could convince us that you're not a racist (which you
KY> DH> have not done) would you be content with simply being a
KY> DH> hateful bigot?
KY> I am not saying one should want to be anything other than
KY> his natural race or nationality. But if they did want to
KY> be another race or nationality, they would not have much
KY> choice in the matter.
Yes they do. Skin grafting, repigmenting of skin, etc, etc can
change someone's racial characteristics. It's very common,
example, for Japanese people to seek plastic surgery to
"caucasianise" their eye shape.
KY> Gays on the other hand do make a choice.
Evidence? You've failed to present any yet. Just where is this
evidence?
Either put up or shut up, Ken.
KY> I would think gays would want to switch because homosexuality
KY> is unnatural, and even the positions at least with male homosexual sex,
KY> must be kind of awkward.
Homosexuality is QUITE *natural*. Look up the word.
Do you find heterosexual anal sex difficult, Ken?
Just how is an orifice so different between men and women that
men *cannot* practice the same act that many men perform on women
(especially in many nations on this earth where virginity is seen
as something that must be preserved for the sanctity of marriage)?
KY> Besides, you seem to think that gays are persecuted against.
They are. Hundreds of examples have been provided.
KY> And who wants that?
People of intolerant religions, dear boy. People like you.
KY> Strongly disagreeing with one's morality is not being a bigot.
No. But moving from a private disagreement into legislated
discrimination is.
KY> Rather, it is a little something called diversity.
Then why don't you support this diversity? If you supported
diversity, you'd not want to eliminate by the support of passage
of discriminatory measures against the groups you claim should be
allowed for the sake of diversity.
KY> And you seem to hate Christianity. Are you a bigot, in that respect?
No, he hates *you*. There is a reason for that hatred too. He
values his freedom. And he also values the freedoms of others.
He understands that the price of freedom is vigilance. And that
vigilance spreads to the vigilance of the rights of others -- as
he may be targetted by your types next.
You know, there's been much crapping on by you about a gay
agenda. Care to inform the echo of the CHRISTIAN agenda AGAINST
gays, so that they can know what to expect when the gays are
dealt with and the Christians move to terrorise another group?
Rod "...or should I just post an account of the secret
organisational meetings?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Time is an illusion of the manufacturers of space
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 1/
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:21:10
EID:98a9 226b62a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ddb6
* On 03-03-97 at 18:11, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RC> And marriage? Do you think it is the business of the state or anyone
KY> RC> else to discriminate against gays and lesbians who wish to marry?
KY> RC> I'm curious to test the limits of your apparant reasonableness.
KY> Well, I'll be honest. I'd like to be for laws banning
KY> homosexual marriage, and well, homosexual sex itself.
So much for diversity.
KY> But, if I am not for their freedoms, how can I expect anyone be
KY> for mine? If I want freedom and people to respect my
KY> rights, then as much as I hate their lifestyle, I would
KY> have to be for it to be legal.
KY> Now, by the same token, I do believe it is the right of the people in
an
KY> area, that if they don't like homosexuality, to vote for
KY> anti-homosexual laws. But, that would be the people to
KY> decide, not the government.
So you agree that government shouldn't take the rights of gay
people away, but the majority should?
Do you think the majority should be able to take the rights of
minority races away? After all, if the public don't like blacks,
you believe that it's a right for the people to vote for
anti-black laws... right?
What about anti-Christian laws? Do you think that the majority
should be able to take the rights of religious people away?
After all, if the public...
You cannot claim that you do not support tyranny by *government*
by moving that governance away from representative to direct
democracy. It is still tyranny.
Why would you seek to allow the majority to be tyrannical to any
minority? What ever happened to the rights of the individual as
enshrined under the Constitution? Don't you believe that all are
created equal with *INALIENABLE* rights?
You do realise why the rights are INALIENABLE, don't you?
KY> KY> Rather, what I am speaking of is those gays that make a scene
KY> KY> about being gay
KY> RC> I have no idea what you mean. Could you elaborate? What kind of
KY> RC> "scene" do you mean?
KY> Check out the gay marches or rallies that have been shown
KY> on the news, and you will get an idea what I mean.
Why don't you check out one in person, and see for yourself,
rather than taking sensationalist newsbytes?
KY> You must admit, some do get a bit confrontational about it.
Do they have a right to be angry? Would your reaction be the
same if your rights -- inalienable -- were being alienated and
destroyed?
If they're angry, it must be a pretty good reason. I wonder if
you've ever considered or even TRIED to consider their point of
view in your analysis. I bet not...
KY> KY> and those that make a point of telling everyone their sexual
KY> KY> preference, when there is no need.
KY> RC> For example? What qualifies as such a "need" and what is wrong
KY> RC> with letting others know something about yourself even when there
KY> RC> is no such "need?"
KY> It seems to me that many make their sexual preference the
KY> main part of them.
You do not live in a world where others try and suppress a very
important part of one's identity by demanding that it be
completely suppressed.
You can't have it both ways, Ken. If you stopped trying to
oppress gay people, they wouldn't have a need to reaffirm
themselves in REACTION to the oppression.
You don't realise that gay people don't need to affirm who they
are every minute if they are not being oppressed.
I have no need to constantly affirm who I am to people in this
echo that I'm gay when they understand and accept that fact. I
seem to have to reply, however, and present my sexual orientation
as an AFFIRMATION and AFFRONT to your DENIALS of it.
When you say that gays "choose", I must defend myself and
disprove you. When you say that gays are "sick" I must defend
myself. When you say it's abnormal, I must defend myself.
Even after I debunk you, and all the other echo participants are
both laughing at your ignorance, and probably ashamed that you're
yet another ignorant heterosexual that is escalating the war and
contempt that gay people have for heterosexuals... You repeat
your claims, escalating that war again.
Meanwhile, the trust that gay people like me have to be honest
and open to any heterosexuals diminishes to the point that I
would rather lie to EVERY heterosexual to protect my identity
from the unfair lies and propaganda than to be openly honest and
affirming and celebratory of an integral part of my identity.
Your agenda of repression is a hateful, hurtful one, Ken. And
I'm one of the strong ones who can resist your hateful agenda.
But for the gay people who have been mentally abused and
terrorised by family, and friends -- they don't have the strength
to resist your agenda. They would rather live a lie to keep you
appeased and to run away from the illogical and hurtful hatred
you have for people who are openly gay.
A great many of them would commit suicide because of your
shameful and unChristian intolerance.
I hope that one day you see that blood on your hands, and the
guilt that hangs over your conscience.
In the meantime, I congratulate each and every person whom I
consider an ally in the fight for tolerance and understanding --
the heterosexual people who are not afraid to speak out and tell
the truth, and counteract your lies. They are providing the
ability and the hope for many gay people to live openly and
freely and well-adjusted -- rather than closeted and fearing of
heterosexuals like you who seek to oppress us.
Those allies provide the means and ways to save the lives of gay
people by providing a hopeful new world of tolerance and
understanding.
Every one of them should be proud of fighting your hate -- the
hate that leads to gay people hating themselves and killing
themselves. The hate that leads to other straights beating gays
to death.
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * Laugh and the world thinks you're an idiot
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 2/
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:21:12
EID:68a9 226b62a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ddb8
>>> Continued from previous message
You should be ashamed, Ken. The irony is that you will ask your
God for some salvation from this sin of yours, rather than face
the faces of the victims of the crimes that you inspired either
indirectly through your propaganda, or directly by being part of
the oppressive regime.
KY> There is a lot more to a person, and I
KY> think they obsess far too much in trying to get everyone to
KY> accept their lifestyle.
They would have no need to obsess over justifying their lives if
the ones who hated them didn't obsess over their sexual
orientation to start with. Don't obsess, Ken, and you won't get
the shocking realisation that we will defend ourselves.
KY> No one can have everyone like every part of them.
This line would not justify racism. We'd still condemn racists.
It won't justify your heterosexism. We're still going to
condemn you for your illogical agenda of irrational propaganda
and hatred.
KY> And gays also seem to often (though, not all of them) to go a bit far.
There is no "too far" when it is our lives that are at risk.
If you care about our "affronting" you, you should consider
stopping your hateful agenda of repression.
KY> RC> I mean bigoted prudery of ANY and ALL types. What concern is it
KY> RC> of yours to interfere in the most personal relationships of others
KY> RC> who have done you no harm? Why do you advertise your phobias and
KY> RC> insecurities and hatreds as if you were instructed by a god to
make
KY> RC> this world a living hell for your selected victims?
KY> This is pretty much one of my points on this. It is none of
KY> my concern or business.
Bull shit. You made it your business. You were the one that
started this topic. How dare you say that you don't start the
agenda and propaganda that you spread!
KY> I only advertise my distaste for a lifestyle choice, when
KY> that lifestyle choice itself is advertised.
You advertise your Christianity. Immediately repress it. I
demand it of you. Remember, you claim that gays should not
resist the oppression of their identity that you demand of them.
Live by the rules you wish to create on others. Repress
yourself. DENY yourself. DENY your existence, Ken.
Don't fight back. You're not allowed to "advertise", or
"affront" your attackers. Don't resist. REPRESS YOURSELF!
Go on...
How does your rhetoric sound when the shoe is on the other foot,
and your ass is the one getting kicked?
KY> ANd I can honestly say, it has nothing to do with
KY> insecurities, hatred, or phobias. I don't hate gays, I am
KY> fully secure with who I am, and I could not even think of a
KY> reason why I should be scared of a gay person.
But you fear us none-the-less. You have demonstrated above that
you fear gay people identifying themselves and accepting
themselves as gay openly.
This fear is illogical. You even claim that it's none of your
business, but clearly make it your business. You deliberately
seek out situations to condemn them.
You are irrational, and in need of serious help. You exacerbate
your own fears by seeking them out and instead of fighting them,
you encourage them.
KY> The only exception would be I feel there is a move to
KY> indoctrinate people in American society, as far as
KY> homosexuality and the acceptance of it goes.
So you admit you fear the acceptance of gay people as equally
worthy human beings and citizens?
Why?
What reason behind this illogical fear?
Isn't this an admission you need help?
KY> RC> You said it was better when GAYS kept quiet. Why do you pick on
gays?
KY> All I mean is it was better when they did not make a point
KY> of advertising their sexuality.
You use deft words to claim that the acceptance and honesty about
one's sexual orientation is "advertising", and that defending one
from hateful attacks is "advertising".
A billboard is advertising. A life is reality. Learn the
difference. You can't make us go away, Ken. In fact, the harder
you try, the more prevalent we will become. The more you try to
repress us, lie about us, spread lies about us, advertise YOUR
propaganda for us -- the more of us turn up to disprove your
lies, disprove your repression, disprove your propaganda.
You don't realise that the only reasons why gay people are
becoming more vocal is because we have allies that are willing to
stand up and say "enough is enough" who *aren't* gay.
KY> Not just better for those against homosexuality, but for them
KY> as well. There certainly wouldn't be the gay bashing that we
KY> hear occurs today.
You are wrong. Gay bashings are reducing now due to more people
speaking out. When people speak out, gay bashing is condemned by
others as being wrong, and it spreads the social message that gay
bashing is wrong.
Silence means that the gay bashings become socially-legitimised,
and they increase. This is also the reason, in part, for most
gay bashings occuring in areas where there is no visible
condemnation from community leaders of gay bashers.
Just how many gay people must be murdered for you to turn around
and not only openly condemn it, but do something to educate our
next generation that bashing anyone for any reason is wrong?
Rod "...if you speak so much of diversity, why do you not respect
that diversity by telling our youth to respect it, instead of
bash it?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Laugh and the world thinks you're an idiot
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:22:14
EID:74fa 226b62c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ddf6
* On 03-03-97 at 18:11, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RC> And marriage? Do you think it is the business of the state or anyone
KY> RC> else to discriminate against gays and lesbians who wish to marry?
KY> RC> I'm curious to test the limits of your apparant reasonableness.
KY> Well, I'll be honest. I'd like to be for laws banning
KY> homosexual marriage, and well, homosexual sex itself.
Why? Don't you like religious freedom? Don't you like civil
rights? Don't you like gay people?
Why would one so "unconcerned" about gay people be so concerned
in limiting their civil rights?
Rod "...please answer, don't dodge the question" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Gun Control: The ability to drop a fundie at 500 yards
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:24:16
EID:0843 226b6300
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324de70
For your quote file, Fred...
* On 03-03-97 at 18:11, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> Now, by the same token, I do believe it is the right of the people in
an
KY> area, that if they don't like homosexuality, to vote for
KY> anti-homosexual laws.
KY> I only advertise my distaste for a lifestyle choice, when
KY> that lifestyle choice itself is advertised.
KY> ANd I can honestly say, it has nothing to do with
KY> insecurities, hatred, or phobias. I don't hate gays, I am
KY> fully secure with who I am, and I could not even think of a
KY> reason why I should be scared of a gay person.
KY> The only exception would be I feel there is a move to indoctrinate people
in
KY> American society, as far as homosexuality and the
KY> acceptance of it goes.
KY> All I mean is it was better when they did not make a point
KY> of advertising their sexuality. Not just better for those
KY> against homosexuality, but for them as well. There
KY> certainly wouldn't be the gay bashing that we hear occurs
KY> today.
Rod
* OLX 2.1 TD * Does killing time damage eternity?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boyco 1/
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:35:18
EID:fd88 226d0460
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326db46
* On 03-03-97 at 18:36, KEN YOUNG wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> FR> nobel than hatred and evil bigotry, the Christanic
KY> FR> death cult has dictated that homosexuals are unable to
KY> FR> be recognized by the State as married and thus they
KY> FR> share an unfair tax burdon not levied against their
KY> FR> heterosexual equals.
KY> You seem to think that the Christian force in a lot
KY> stronger than it is. If it is so powerful, why is prayer
KY> in school not allowed, the ten commandments and nativity
KY> scenes being taken down, etc.?
Christians have passed laws to enact such things. It is judicial
ruling that has removed them due to the establishment of
religion. Even after rulings by courts, the Christians still try
to pass such laws so that they can waste taxpayer dollars on
their feeble attempts to try and pass the same things that have
been outlawed in other states, or federally.
Yes, Christians are *completely* powerless, I really believe you.
Of course, you obviously don't read your news.
THE BOSTON GLOBE March 9, 1997
Box 2378,Boston,MA,02107
(Fax 617-929-2098, print run 516,981)
(E-MAIL: letter@globe.com)
Religion and Politics: Christian soldiers march onward - and wayward
By Mary Leonard
If there was any reason to believe the Christian Coalition and its allies
on the religious right had converted the 105th Congress, it was erased last
week, when almost one-third of the House voted against the Ten Commandments.
The measure - a nonbinding resolution endorsing the right of an Alabama
judge to hang a reproduction of Moses's ancient stone tablets on his
courtroom wall - barely got the required two-thirds majority. Indeed, 125
House members showed no fear of recrimination from the Christian right when
they stood for a strict separation of church and state and against the
biblical word of God.
These are not the best and brightest days for conservative Christian
groups. Forget their activism, which has energized the GOP at the grass
roots: The religious right, and particularly the 1.7 million-member Christian
Coalition, now is being blamed by Republican centrists for a moral sanctimony
and ideological stridency that is scaring voters, especially women.
Inside the movement there is ferment, too, as Christian soldiers wage a
holy war over political agenda, over pragmatism vs. idealism and, most
fundamentally, over the role of government in religious life.
There are even early signs that some evangelical Christians are ready to
turn their back on what they view as hopelessly corrupt Washington and
instead focus their efforts on a community level; some predict they will
take
their cause to the streets. What is certain is that, for the moment, the
religious right is engaged in serious soul-searching and struggling to regain
its earlier momentum.
``When you are not very visible, when the other side doesn't focus, you
can be very powerful,'' said Representative Barney Frank, the Newton
Democrat, of conservative Christians' considerable political success in
recent years. ``The more visible you become, the more people can rally
against you, so it's a mixed blessing. That's what has happened here. The
Christian right has clearly lost its clout.''
Certainly the religious right, a term some conservative Christians use to
describe themselves, is experiencing conflict from within; what appears
to be
a monolith from the outside is, internally, a clash of egos, issues, and
ideologies too pure to compromise. In spite of that, the Christian right
has
succeeded in making its moral voice essential to the nation's contemporary
political conversation. It has shaped the rhetoric of Republicans and
Democrats alike and influenced passionate debates over abortion, parents'
rights and homosexuality.
It raised its voice again last week when Ralph Reed, executive director
of
the Christian Coalition, vented his frustration with the GOP for ignoring
his
conservative agenda, saying congressional leaders were guilty ``of timidity,
of retreat and of muddle-headed moderation.'' The 105th Congress has done
little, it's true, and one thing it did do - approve aid for international
family planning - enraged religious conservatives because it imposed no
restrictions on using the money for abortions.
Indeed, the only issue where the Christian right can expect swift,
positive legislative action is on banning so-called partial-birth abortions;
last year Congress passed the ban, a high priority for social conservatives,
but failed to override President's Clinton's veto.
But the blame for inaction is not the GOP leadership's alone. On a
signature issue for religious conservatives - a constitutional amendment
to
protect religious expression - the schism is so wide and the good will so
absent that action on voluntary school prayer is almost surely doomed in
this
Congress and perhaps for a very long time.
In a remarkable development last week, the National Association of
Evangelicals, the country's largest evangelical Christian group, defied
the
orthodoxy of the Christian right and refused to endorse the school-prayer
amendment that is expected to be introduced soon by Representative Ernest
Istook, an Oklahoma Republican. Istook's best efforts - he visited the
group's convention in Orlando armed with a letter of support from Speaker
Newt Gingrich, and pleaded with the evangelical pastors to back him - failed.
We went home empty-handed.
``According to my faith, there is no way I can love my neighbor and
support majoritarian legislation that requires Jewish kids to recite
Christian prayers,'' said Forest Montgomery, counsel to the evangelicals'
association. ``It is wrong, legally and theologically.''
At issue is whether Istook's amendment gives the government too much power
to promote and control religion; it not only permits students to lead prayers
at school but also allows public officials to acknowledge religion, such
as
permitting a display of the Ten Commandments or a Christmas creche in the
community. The risk, conservative critics say, is that the acknowledged,
majority religion could discriminate against other faiths, abridging the
free-exercise clause of the First Amendment.
``The Istook amendment has sex appeal, and for those with a soundbite
mentality, a roll-call vote on God sounds great,'' said Steven McFarland,
who
heads the Christian Legal Society, a 35-year-old association of conservative
Christian lawyers in Washington. ``But do we really want to let government
choose a favorite religion? When Caesar gets into the business of doing
anything for religion, it prostitutes the faith, it co-opts the church.
No
thank you.''
McFarland predicts ``it's going to get ugly'' if the Evangelicals and
Southern Baptists square off against Istook and the Christian Coalition
and
other religious right groups that are financed from the grass roots, where
the school-prayer amendment is still very popular. And liberals in Congress
surely will watch with some delight when ``the right hand doesn't know what
the far-right hand is doing,'' Frank said.
The Christian Coalition says it will fight for school prayer, but in fact
its focus is on something new and quite untraditional: the Samaritan project,
a social-action outreach program into inner cities, with the idea of linking
fundamental congregations with black churches while simultaneously prodding
government to provide private or parochial school vouchers and tax credits
for charitable giving and volunteerism.
On one level, the Samaritan project is consistent some Christian
conservatives' growing unease with government-only solutions to social
problems. At the same time, it could help transfer federal funds to churches,
religious schools and charities - a transfer that Barry Lynn, executive
director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, says
is
clever but unconstitutional.
On another level, the Samaritan project is a response to recent attacks
from GOP moderates who say the Christian Coalition - which claimed credit
for
electing Jim Nicholson, the new Republican Party chairman - is out of the
mainstream and wrecking the party with its moral authority.
``There's a big effort by the Christian Coalition to moderate its agenda
and rhetoric because extremism doesn't win arguments or broaden the
coalition,'' said Clyde Wilcox, a government professor at Georgetown
University and author of several books on the Christian Coalition. ``The
problem is, when you try to stay in the GOP tent, you're going to disconnect
from the issue-oriented grass roots.''
It's already happening. Gary Bauer, who heads the conservative Family
Research Council, says that the conventional wisdom, which holds that
Republicans win on economic, not social issues, is backward and must be
rejected. ``We lost in November because we came across as a party of
accountants instead of a party that cares,'' Bauer said.
Bauer said he will push relentlessly for a values-oriented agenda in
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * That was Zen... This is Tao!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boyco 2/
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:35:20
EID:0d88 226d0460
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326db48
>>> Continued from previous message
Congress that includes a human-life amendment, school prayer, tuition
vouchers, limits on AIDs and arts funding, and legislation providing parents
more control over schools. Those who don't go along with him - Republicans
as
well as Democrats - will be targeted for defeat by Bauer's new political
action committee. ``We're not going to turn down the volume,'' he said.
``To
lower it would be to make it imperceptible.''
Paul Weyrich, who champions the religious right in Washington and on a
conservative TV network, says the powerful Christian Coalition's ``cozying
up
to the pusillanimous Republican leadership'' had has a very negative impact
on other conservative grass-roots groups that want action but fear
compromise. It's led Weyrich to consider starting a third party.
``What I hear from the grass roots is that the powder-puff Republican
Party that social conservatives elected won't stand for anything, won't
fight
for anything, won't rock the boat and only wants to be pleasant and make
friends with Democrats,'' Weyrich said. ``The party is traumatized, and
Gingrich has evaporated from sight.''
For the Christian right, which sees moral decay across the nation,
Washington is particularly rotten. Corwin Smidt, a professor of political
science at Calvin College, said the lack of a moral government is beginning
to drive some evangelical Christians away from political institutions
altogether and could lead them to something more unconventional, such as
protests or even guerrilla activity.
``I think we've reached a fork in the road, when evangelicals say we tried
politics, it's not the answer, let's put our resources into something
spiritual outside the system,'' he said.
In fact, some of the most interesting experiments in dialog-building
between secular and religious groups are going on in communities far from
Washington. In Texas and California, for example, ``common ground'' projects
are searching for ways to accommodate varying viewpoints on issues like
religious liberty, character education and parental rights.
``In some places, it's finally sinking in that nobody is going to win
these culture wars, so let's learn to live together,'' said Charles Haynes,
who directs several common ground projects from the First Amendment Center
at
Vanderbilt University.
Mary Leonard is the Globe's Focus writer.
* OLX 2.1 TD * That was Zen... This is Tao!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:34:22
EID:9a0b 226b6440
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324e0ce
* On 04-03-97 at 16:07, KEN YOUNG wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> We are punished for the actions we do. SO, while we should
KY> all love all homosexuals as any other human should be
KY> loved, their actions or beliefs would doom them to Hell.
Good. Let your stinkin' dead homo god on a stick judge us, not
mortals. You are commanded by your bible to not judge. Do not
judge. You are commanded to love us, so love us.
Part of that love is granting us self-determinance, civil rights,
and equality in this world. Do so.
KY> I do not believe that while On earth it is up to us to
KY> punish anyone for their sins. They must have the
KY> oppurtunity to repent.
So why do you punish gays by denying their civil rights to marry,
hold a job, rent a home, serve in the military, teach in schools,
care for children, keep their children, adopt children, control
their own affairs in their death, control their own funeral
arrangements, control their hospital visitation rights, control
their access to sue entities for discrimination, probate rights,
etc, etc, etc, etc.
Did I mention that your regime allows for the jailing of people
for the term of their natural life for their love? Did you know
that last year, Montana tried to pass a law in which gay people
would have to register under their laws that require sex
offenders to register with the state for life?
KY> As far as witch burnings go, the church was pretty split on
KY> that. And even if all Christians were for it, which they
KY> never were, that would not mean that Christianity itself
KY> would be wrong.
Yes, it would mean that each and every individual who supported
the burning of witches would be wrong. However, at the time,
they would have thought they were right.
Sort of like the way you think you are right in your oppression
of gay people.
In the future, people will condemn your unChristian behaviour and
feel ashamed that Christianity ever persecuted gay people.
Rod "... you are in need of help. See someone -- even if it is
your pastor of your church" Swift...
* OLX 2.1 TD * Smoke me a kipper skipper, I'll be back for breakfast
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 1/
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:50:24
EID:98a9 226b6640
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324e490
* On 05-03-97 at 18:27, KEN YOUNG wrote to KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KW> Sorry, dear, but women have always found ways to loose a baby they
were
KY> KW> determined not to bear. The main difference now is that they can
do so
KY> KW> in relative safety (safety as long as a gun welding xtian nut isn't
KY> KW> around).
KY> Logic says that when something becomes easier and more
KY> convenient, such as with abortions being legal, it will
KY> start happening a lot more than it did before.
Why do you not realise this logic in your claims that gays should
shut up to lower incidence in hate crimes against gays?
Surely if gay people don't speak out, it will become easier and
more acceptable for gays to be bashed, and (after all) you said:
Logic says that when something becomes easier and
more convenient, such [as would happen when gay
bashing is less vocally condemned], it will
start happening a lot more than it did before.
You are now debunked. You should be supporting more vocal
opposition to gay bashing.
KY> KW> Did it ever occur to you that if you just treated the gays like
the
KY> KW> people that they really are, you wouldn't be forcing them to fight
for
KY> KW> their lives? What you're really whining about is the fact that
some
KY> KW> people just wont shut up and let you abuse them. They insist on
being
KY> KW> people, and that flies all over you.
KY> And how do you know how I really treat gays, anyway?
See your logic above, and your claims about gays and bashings
against them.
KY> Generally, I will only become confrontational about it,
KY> when they have, first.
Generally, but what about specifically? In this whole instance,
you were the one that started it.
KY> ANd "fighting for their lives?" How so? I do not recall
KY> myself committing any "gay bashing."
The unfortunate thing is that gay bashing doesn't need a baseball
bat. It can come in the form of propaganda. You bash the
humanity of gays with every word of your lies.
You bash our humanity when you say we choose. When you say we
choose, it justifies in the minds of men that they can help a
lesbian "be normal" by simply "showing them how" (i.e. rape).
You are ignorant to the consequences of your lies. You are
ignorant to the consequences of the verbal gay bashing that you
do -- in that it is translated into the physical abuses by your
adherents.
KY> Sure, they are people, but once they make their business,
KY> my business, I have every right to show my disapproval of
KY> their morality.
You have never had, nor ever will, have a right to go any further
than an expression of disapproval of homosexuality as something
*for you*.
You have, however, expressed much more than that. You have
expressed that it is not right for *anyone* including gay people.
This is a fundamental difference. This is you meddling in the
business of others.
Not the other way around. Gay people do not suggest to you that
your heterosexuality is sick and wrong. Why do you do the obverse
for gays?
Why do you hold your agenda of propaganda, lies and hatred?
KY> KW> Maybe you should sit yourself down and get to the bottom of why
you feel
KY> KW> so blighted threatened by the gay couple down the road being able
to
KY> KW> settle into a life long committed relationship. Why are you so
worried
KY> KW> about it, anyway--it's not like they're holding a gun to your head
and
KY> KW> forcing you to join them in their marital bed.
KY> Threatened? The only way I feel threatened by
KY> homosexuality, is I believe they are trying to get people
KY> to accept and embrace it as the norm.
No we're not. We're informing people that it is quite normal,
however. Not "the norm". The "norm" is a statistical term.
Heterosexuality is "the norm" among a number of "normal" and
"normative" states of sexual orientation.
Why are you so threatened that you must lie about gays and spread
mistruths about their existence?
You've failed to prove anything you've said about homosexuality.
You've failed to prove any unnaturality of it. You've failed to
prove that it is unhealthy. You've failed to prove that it's a
choice. You've failed to prove anything.
KY> Homosexuality I do
KY> not fear, the brainwashing about homosexuality that occurs,
KY> however, is a threat to just the mere concept of true
KY> morality, itself.
Brainwashing? Or truth. What you spread is a brainwashing -- it
is propaganda. You spread lies to counteract truth. You are the
one attempting to perpetrate an agenda of hatred.
All gays have ever wanted was equality and citizenry and fair
treatment under the law. All you have ever waged is the
continuation of abuses against gays in every aspect of public and
private life.
Which one is fair? Which one is just? Which one is honest?
Which is truth? Which is for diversity? Which is for
understanding? Which is open to criticism? Which is open to
fair questioning? Which is most educative? Which seeks out the
views of science? Which is most humane? Which is most
Constitutional? Which is most equal?
Your viewpoint is not fair, it's not just, it's not honest, it's
not truthful, it's not for supporting diversity, it doesn't seek
for each to understand each other, it is not open to criticisms
from outsiders, you don't allow its premises to be questioned,
it's not educative, it's not scientific, it's not humane, it's
not Constitutional because it fails to support a citizens' civil
rights and it's INHERENTLY UNEQUAL.
Gay people want everyone to be fair, just, honest, truthful about
each other, understanding and supportive of diversity, critical
and questioning of the concepts and premises from which its
based, educative in helping everyone understand what sexual
orientations are, scientific from years of research, humane
because of the equality it grants all people, and most
constitutional because it inherently supports everyone's
inalienable civil rights.
KY> And hey, if people mind their own business, and don't tell me
KY> about what they are doing, why should I care? It's their lives,
KY> just leave me out of it.
No. This is not your agenda. Your agenda is:
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * Do not adjust your mind, the fault is with reality.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 2/
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:50:26
EID:68a9 226b6640
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324e492
>>> Continued from previous message
And hey, if people REPRESS a part of themselves, and
don't be honest with me about WHO they are, why should
I understand? It's their lives, just as long as they
leave *themselves* out of it.
You have admitted that you don't mind gay people, as long as you
don't know they're gay. This is your demand on them that they
omit who they are to satisfy your fears, hatreds and illogical
views.
Rod "... you are the one that seeks ignorance, not understanding
or diversity. Hang your head in shame, Ken" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Do not adjust your mind, the fault is with reality.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Mar 97 12:53:28
EID:9a0b 226b66a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324e548
* On 06-03-97 at 00:50, KEN YOUNG wrote to DAVE HAMILTON,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> DH> It makes this cretin feel good to imagine that there exists
KY> DH> a lower class of human than himself. He's not right, but he
KY> DH> thinks so.
KY> Now, have I ever said I was above gays?
You have clearly stated your support for the denial of civil
rights to gay people -- hence, second-class citizenry and
inequality for gay people, and hence gays being *less* than you.
KY> No, I am just a mere human, the same as any homosexual.
You say this out of one side of your mouth, while professing
another view outside the other side of your mouth. And look,
here it is...
KY> But that does not change the fact that if you do not have
KY> Christian beliefs, you cannot get to Heaven, and
KY> homosexuality itself goes quite against Christianity.
Have you ever considered that I don't believe in Christianity,
hence I don't believe in its claims? Have you considered that
your attempts at enforcing a Christian model on society is an
affront to my freedom, especially when you can enforce your
Christian morality model on yourself and *still* receive your
salvation?
If you are able to receive your salvation, you should do it with
the minimal interference with others who do not share it with
you. I suggest you start doing so, or be branded a religious
hypocrite.
Rod "...thank you. You may leave the echo at any time" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus saves, passes to Moses. He shoots. He scores!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:00:30
EID:34b9 226b6800
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324e6ee
* On 09-03-97 at 00:10, DAVE HAMILTON wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
DH> You have had volumes of scientific evidence that demonstrates
DH> that gays are born gay. If you believe in a creator, that means
DH> that they were created gay.
You will not get an answer except his canned propaganda.
DH> You have not changed your opinion. What evidence are you prepared
DH> to trot out to the contrary?
He has provided no evidence so far, even though we have provided
volumes against his theories. It's time for him to provide some
SOURCES for his information and viewpoints.
It's time for his brothers in sexuality to start questioning his
agenda against another sexual orientation. *hint hint*.
A good one to start with -- Why shouldn't the majority accept
homoseuxality?
He's been awfully vocal about opposing homosexuality, and
justifying his propaganda, because he fears the majority may
accept homosexuals as normal *shock horror!!!*
Just what is the problem with such a notion of everyone accepting
everyone else *DESPITE* their respective sexual orientations, I
wonder! :) :)
DH> Am I a bigot? No. Am I intolerant of those things I despise?
DH> You bet.
There are some difficult questions that you can ask Ken to make
him realise his errors. Keep asking the difficult questions --
make him justify his agenda of hate, and his propaganda designed
to spread ignorance and terror among straight people.
And then ask -- why is he spreading this agenda? He's claimed
it's to stop straights accepting gays as normal. He's also
claimed he's for "diversity".
He's talking out of BOTH sides of his mouth. Diversity and
intolerance of diversity cannot co-exist.
Rod "...and if I have not thanked you yet, Dave, I thank you now
for your continued fairness, tolerance, and understanding." Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus Christ Super Fraud. The Musical!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:02:32
EID:c15a 226b6840
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324e768
* On 07-03-97 at 12:06, DON MARTIN wrote to KEN WIENS,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
DM> Welcome back, Creamy Ken Weins! Hanged any raped
DM> 12-year-olds lately for aborting their daddy's fetus?
I wonder if he'd stone some fags for Jesus, as proclaimed in
Leviticus 20! :)
Rod "...and the realisation that if he doesn't kill fags, then
he's going to go to hell?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Laugh and the world thinks you're an idiot
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Driving Over Mr. Daisy
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:05:34
EID:9eb6 226b68a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324e81e
* On 05-03-97 at 20:28, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
on the topic of "Driving Over Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> KY>> Yes, when gays kept it quiet, it was much better.
FR> KY>> They were still around, but who needs to advertise
FR> KY>> their sexual orientation?
FR> Strange he elected not to explain what this "advertising" consists of.
Why, any gay person who admits they are gay, or even has the
*gall* to want a few scraps from the table of human rights where
the nice heterosexuals are having a three course meal...
Yes, a few scraps for the dogs under your feet, but only if they
behave and be good fags for the hetero masters.
That's what Ken wants. He's sick. He needs help.
FR> KY> Rather, what I am speaking of is those gays
FR> ky> that make a scene about being gay
FR> rc> I have no idea what you mean.
FR> rc> Could you elaborate?
FR> rc> What kind of "scene" do you mean?
FR> I can imagine the response.
Does it involve leather?
Rod "...I'm just wondering about Ken, that's all" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Atheist: a person with no invisible means of support
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Convention on the Rights
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:12:36
EID:4e4d 226b6980
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324e9c4
* On 08-03-97 at 10:07, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ANTHONY GRIGOR-SCOTT,
on the topic of "Convention on the Rights" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> ~*~ "I was on my knees, doggie-style, with my feet hanging off the
bed...
FR> He pulled his jogging suit down around his ankles and left his
T-shirt
FR> on... He stuck it in and pumped a couple of time and pulled it
out...
FR> He was very easy. A few pumps and that was it. He'd just moan,
and as
FR> soon as he got done, he'd throw the rubber in the trash, tuck it
in and
FR> walk out the door."
FR> -- Debra Murphree refering to Jimmy Swaggart
FR> (Penthouse magazine, July 1988)
Jeez, Fred. You might want to start putting the reference first.
I thought you were describing Ken's wet dream last night!
Rod "...you may now ROFL" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Atheism: A non-prophet organisation
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:14:38
EID:74fa 226b69c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ea3e
* On 03-03-97 at 21:44, KEN YOUNG wrote to STEVE QUARRELLA,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> A little kissing or whatever would be fine, but it is
KY> another thing to make a point of telling the whole world
KY> all about your sexual preference.
You've yet to explain why this is a bad thing...
You make a point of telling the world your faith. Where is the
difference? Isn't your faith a part of your identity?
KY> If it is none of my concern, then don;t make it my concern.
Shut up and repress your religion for the remainder of your days.
I demand it of you...
Or do you not recognise my right to demand such a thing? Why
should I respect your right to demand I cannot be openly gay?
Rod "...you are playing catch 22 everywhere, hypocrite." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus died for our sins, so let's not disappoint him
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: He Does It Again!
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:15:40
EID:717e 226b69e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ea7c
* On 06-03-97 at 18:30, KEN YOUNG wrote to MARTIN GOLDBERG,
on the topic of "He Does It Again!" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY>> Gays will go to Hell if they are not saved, and if you
KY> KY>> are gay, you cannot be saved.
KY> MG> Fuck your god.
KY> No, I am pretty sure sex with a supernatural being is forbidden.
As opposed to reproductive sex with you, which would be for the
betterment of the human gene pool and for the sake of the
non-existent children's mental health.
Rod "...have you been sterilised for the good of humanity yet?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Diplomacy: The patriotic art of lying for one's country
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: California
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:18:42
EID:261c 226b6a40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324eb32
* On 07-03-97 at 20:53, FREDRIC RICE wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "California" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> Today Christianic death cult terrorists burned down another
FR> abortion clinic right here in Southern California.
Nope. "You are in error!" Brother Fredric, because you failed to
provide "Evidence?" :) :)
Arrgh. I have Staalin disease :) :)
Rod "...of course, he will claim that the terrorism wasn't
domestic Christian terrorism, but some form of natural disaster,
or something." Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * I wanted to be born again but my mother said: "No!"
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Blavatsky?
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:23:46
EID:5a37 226b6ae0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ec62
* On 08-03-97 at 06:05, DON MARTIN wrote to ED MILLS,
on the topic of "Blavatsky?" in echo Holysmoke:
DM> Calabreeze was his name (your spelling may vary), Christopher, I
DM> think. It once was in the FAQ (of fond memory). Here is the quote
DM> (in all caps, sic) from back in '95:
DM> "FUCK YOU ATHEIST! WHEN I FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE, I'LL DRIVE A
DM> PITCHFORK THROUGH THAT EMPTY HEAD OF YOURS, YOU ARROGANT PIG!
DM> THE GOD OF ABRAHAM DOES NOT STRIKE YOU BY LIGHTENING. SO GET
DM> YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ATHEIST ANCIENT GREECE BOOK OF FALSE GODS,
DM> AND WAKE UP. WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, AND ARE GOING
DM> TO PERMANENTLY SUFFER DOWN THERE. AND I'LL BE LAUGHING AT ALL
DM> THE ATHEIST BASTARDS IN THIS ECHO, WHEN I'M UP IN HEAVEN. THERE
DM> IS NO WAY OUT OF HELL, JUST A WAY IN. AND THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE
DM> HEADED! OH I SEE. ALABAMA? YOU BETTER WATCH OUT. EVERYONE FROM
DM> THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. I GUESS THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY
DM> YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL! THE TERMINAL BBS? OH, I
DM> UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE TERMANILLY RETARTED, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE
DM> PRODUCT OF INCEST! HAVE A NICE DAY, LOSER BOY." - Christopher
DM> Calabrese [Christian family values]
DM> Ah, they don't make 'em like that any more!
No, but idiot savage Jimson, and holy buttfuck Ken are getting
that way. The more we debunk them, the more extreme they get.
They won't stop and accept the truths we offer, they will just
keep evading them.
They will be babbling like that soon :) :)
Rod "...and then they'll take a powder" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Commit the oldest sins the newest kind of ways
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:26:48
EID:3f79 226b6b40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ed18
* On 07-03-97 at 21:04, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KD> KY> FUnny, I must have missed the news stories of the "Straight Rights"
KD> KY> rallies..
KD> Because straights already have rights.
But I've detailed a few straights-rights rallies :) :)
Rod "...he never replied. I wonder why?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Close your mind quick! Something blasphemous may get in!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:28:50
EID:9a0b 226b6b80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ed92
* On 03-03-97 at 22:00, KEN YOUNG wrote to GOD DAN,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> GD> After all, there is only "One True Xian". That's the one
KY> GD> of the multitude that claim they are that "one" and all the
KY> GD> other xians aren't.
KY> If someone says they believe the basic principles of the Bible, I am
forced
KY> to assume they are a Christian, but it is those beliefs
KY> that make them a Christian, not just them saying the magic
KY> words, "I am a Christian."
So you agree that the domestic terrorism is carried out by
bible-believing Christians, unlike Jimson, who denies their
Christianity because it's inconvenient to show what the results
of Christianity are in some people?
Rod "...so, do ya punk?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Black hole: where God divided by zero during creation
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Found on the Web
|Date: 11 Mar 97 13:30:52
EID:6315 226b6bc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3324ee0c
* On 06-03-97 at 18:19, KEN YOUNG wrote to J.J. HITT,
on the topic of "Found on the Web" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> One world government is a horrible thing
Why? Is it only horrible because your types won't be able to
control it?
Rod "...how typical" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Paranoia is *total* awareness!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: More Christanic Terror
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:37:54
EID:8dd8 226d04a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326dbe2
06:47 PM ET 02/28/97
Polygamous cult leader guilty in murder scheme
HOUSTON (Reuter) - The head of the Lamb of God religious
cult was found guilty Friday of murder for hire for
orchestrating the killings of three former members shot to death
in Texas in 1988.
Aaron LeBaron, 28, also was found guilty of racketeering and
infringing on the religious beliefs of the slain Lamb of God
members. He faces up to 50 years in federal prison.
LeBaron was charged with ordering the deaths of Mark
Chynoweth and his brother, Duane Chynoweth, in Houston, and the
nearly simultaneous killing of Edward Marston in Irving. Duane
Chynoweth's 8-year-old daughter, Jenny Chynoweth, also was
killed after witnessing her father's execution.
Defense attorneys during the trial contended the murders
were ordered by one of Aaron LeBaron's brothers, Hebert, who --
along with three other family members -- was sentenced to life
in prison for his role in the killings.
``God knows there is a mountain of evidence in this case,
but the government is very thin in proving it up and applying it
to Aaron LeBaron in this case,'' defense attorney Todd Bennett
said in closing arguments late Thursday.
Following the teachings of founder Ervil LeBaron, who wrote
the sect's 510-page creed while in prison in Utah, Lamb of God
members believed anyone leaving the sect had to be killed before
believers could inherit God's kingdom on earth.
The elder LeBaron, a self-proclaimed messenger of God,
married 13 times and fathered 54 children. He died in prison in
1981.
Aaron LeBaron, who became the sect's high priest upon his
father's death, was captured last year near the cult's colony in
northern Mexico.
Prosecutors were searching for Tarsa LeBaron, the final
family member alleged to have participated in the
murder-for-hire scheme.
``This case is not over until Tarsa LeBaron is proven to be
dead or she is sitting in this courtroom,'' prosecutor Mike
Shelby said.
^REUTER@
* OLX 2.1 TD * If this is reality I want a refund!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Bigots destroy books!
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:40:56
EID:5476 226d0500
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326dc98
The Christians have decided to start destroying books because they may
just happen to show gay people as *real* and *existent* and not *stig-
matised* as their religious dogma perpetrates. There may have been
cause to remove the 400 explicit books of all different natures, but
not destroy the remaining (approx.) 29,600... --
___------------------------------------------------------------------
THE NORFOLK VIRGINIAN-PILOT, March 4, 1997
150 W. Brambleton Avenue,Norfolk,VA,23501
Fax 804-446-2051, E-Mail: letters@infi.net
Hertford school destroys 30,000 donated books with gay titles mixed in
BY ANNE SAITA, The Virginian-Pilot
WINTON -- Lynell Eure was waiting to use the restroom in the girls' locker
room at her granddaughter's elementary school when she eyed an open carton
of
books.
She leaned over and picked up a paperback. Her heart -- and thoughts --
started
racing.
In the Winton woman's hands was a copy of ``The Gay Handbook,'' the cover
illustration leaving little doubt as to its sexually explicit contents.
``I thought, `Oh my God! What in the world is this doing here? This is
trash! Why is this stuff here with our children?' '' Eure said Monday, a
few
days after the discovery.
Hertford County Public Schools officials are asking those same questions
after destroying up to 30,000 donated books -- 400 with dicey titles and
the
rest approved for public consumption.
About 35 volunteers spent eight hours Sunday carting truckloads of books
to
a county trash dump, where they were put in a compactor, then buried.
``The reason why I decided to take this drastic measure was because people
were saying they wanted all these books out of the school by Monday, because
some were filled with inappropriate materials,'' Schools Superintendent
Andrew Carrington said Monday.
``Maybe we took the extreme, but we wanted to err on the side of caution,''
Carrington said. ``We wanted to safeguard the interests of our children
and
our community, and we thought it best to do it this way.''
The uproar began on Friday, when Eure and a friend discovered explicit
books on homosexuality in the locker room at C.S. Brown Elementary School,
which houses pre-kindergarten through fifth-graders.
The women, who had been at the school for a Black History program,
immediately contacted a school board member, who, in turn, called in school
system administrators.
Similar books on gay and lesbian issues also were found among dozens of
boxed books stacked in the school's gymnasium and lobby. The books were
to be
distributed to schools, libraries and colleges throughout the Roanoke-Chowan
region.
The boxes of Penguin Classics paperbacks -- which reportedly included
cookbooks, history books, contemporary novels and sports stories -- were
donated to the school system by a national organization for dropouts that
routinely gives surplus books and other supplies to needy communities.
The gifts come with a disclaimer that some materials may not be suitable
for communities and may be destroyed, said Dr. Ronald Lewis, who helped
arrange for 57,000 books and art supplies to be donated to the Hertford
County school system through the non-profit Communities In Schools, based
in
Alexandria, Va.
Carrington said about 400 objectional books earlier had been removed from
batches by a 30-member media advisory committee of mostly librarians and
educators.
The questionable books were being stored in a room at Brown Elementary
until school officials decided their destination. Someone apparently broke
into the storage room and circulated the controversial books in the
community.
`We started getting reports that students had books. I'm asking people to
give us the names of students, but so far we have not had any names come
forth,'' Carrington said. ``We are doing an extensive investigation.'' Eure
said she believes the censored books have been read by students for months,
based on what one 16-year-old told her as the books were being removed on
Sunday.
``One young man asked me, `Have you removed those nasty books from the
gym? Those nasty books -- I've been reading them since October.' He was
nonchalant about it,'' Eure said.
Carrington and Assistant Superintendent James Robinson said they've
received calls from people wondering why so many decent books were dumped.
``They wish that we had waited and kept the books and gone back through
them,'' Carrington said. ``They think a small group of people has caused
a
major issue in the county.''
Despite complaints, the superintendent stood by his decision.
``We didn't want to have books show up later on,'' he explained.
``Somebody put these books back into the stacks, and they should not have
been there. We wanted to make sure it didn't happen again.''
The mass destruction was a first for the Hertford County School system,
as
well as Communities In Schools, which coordinated the gift-giving with two
other nonprofit groups, World Vision and Feed The Children.
Communities In Schools began in Harlem in the early 1960s and now has
chapters
in 28 states and England, with near plans to expand into South Africa, Lewis
said.
``And we haven't had this problem anywhere in the world except Hertford
County,'' he said.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * God is a Vorlon
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: More Christanic Terror 2
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:48:58
EID:7002 226d0600
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326de7a
Not only do these kooks (on trial last week) think that the judge
in their case was "in violation of the commandments of Yahweh!" but
also that the US official seal is a "pagan image".
Note that they're charged with bombing a newspaper office *and* an
abortion clinic. How typical.
Laugh away, kids. These three's three of theirs! :)
___-------------------------------------------------------------------
05:53 PM ET 03/02/97
Trial to begin for 3 in Washington state bombings
By Bill Stimson
SPOKANE, Wash. (Reuter) - Three white supremacists accused
of carrying out a pair of pipe bombings and bank robberies go on
trial Monday in a case that could be complicated by the
defendants' refusal to recognize the court.
Charles Barbee, 44, Robert Berry, 42, and Jay Merrell, 50,
all of the Sandpoint, Idaho, area, are charged with robbing the
same Spokane bank branch twice last year, once April 1 and then
again July 12.
They also are charged with bombing a newspaper office before
the first robbery and a Planned Parenthood office before the
second.
The bombings, which caused no injuries, were presumed to be
diversionary tactics, although FBI officials said the bomb at
the Planned Parenthood office was powerful enough to kill if
anyone had been in the building.
At preliminary hearings, the three men have sometimes
refused to stand for the ceremonial entrance of the judge, to
answer questions about their legal representation or to have
their photographs taken by law enforcement officials.
At one hearing Merrell shouted at U.S. District Judge Frem
Nielsen, ``You're in violation of the commandments of Yahweh!''
Yahweh is an ancient Hebrew term for God frequently used by
white supremacists.
Refusing to answer Nielsen's questions about whether he
accepted appointed legal counsel, Merrell pointed to the United
States seal on the wall of the courtroom and said, ``These are
pagan images.''
Nielsen authorized federal officials to use ``reasonable
force'' to take the defendants' photographs.
Prosecutors are expected to argue during the trial that the
three men were motivated to carry out the attacks by their
belief in a white supremacist religion known as Christian
identity.
Barbee, Berry and Merrell were arrested Oct. 8 near Yakima,
Wash., by a swarm of federal agents who had been following them
as they drove from Portland, Ore.
The three men allegedly had approached a Portland bank with
the intention of robbing it but found the doors locked because
authorities had been one step ahead.
Federal agents said they found fragmentation grenades,
loaded guns and bomb-making ingredients in the men's vehicle.
The suspects have been held without bail in Spokane.
Prosecutors are expected to present evidence found at the
men's homes, including masks and ski goggles like those used by
the bank robbers and ingredients like those used in the
bombings.
Adding interest to the case is the fact that FBI officials
are investigating whether the men may have been involved in the
bombing of Atlanta's Centennial Park during last year's
Olympics.
That July 27 bombing killed two people and injured 111.
^REUTER@
___-------------------------------------------------------------------
09:59 PM ET 03/04/97
Prosecutors say alleged bombers motivated by beliefs
SPOKANE, Wash. (Reuter) - Federal prosecutors Tuesday
accused three Idaho men of carrying out a pair of bombings and
bank robberies in an alleged effort to punish the bank for its
''godless usury.''
In opening arguments of a trial expected to take up to six
weeks, U.S. Attorney Stephanie Lister said Verne Merrell,
Charles Barbee and Robert Berry held right-wing political
beliefs and had talked freely of the need to punish U.S. Bank
for the supposed usury.
She also said she would produce one witness who could
identify Merrell as the driver of a van used in a bombing of a
Spokane area newspaper office April 1 that preceded a robbery
and bombing of a nearby U.S. Bank branch.
The same bank branch was robbed July 12 shortly after a
Planned Parenthood office was bombed.
The men were arrested Oct. 8 as they were returning to
Spokane from Portland, Ore., where they allegedly were foiled in
their attempt to rob another U.S. Bank branch.
Defense attorneys acknowledged in their opening statements
that the men were in possession of stolen vehicles and illegal
weapons, including grenades and machine guns, when they were
arrested.
But the attorneys denied their clients had taken part in the
bombings and robberies.
Defense attorney John Rodgers said his client, Berry, had
an ``almost comical devotion to military exercises'' and
fascination with military equipment.
He and the others opened secret bank accounts and stole
vehicles in the belief that they need to defend themselves
against federal agencies supposedly ``waging a war against the
men and women of this country,'' Rogers said.
Another defense attorney, Roger Peven, said his client,
Barbee, had been traumatized by the 1993 federal assault on the
Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, that killed some 80
people.
Prosecutors said the vehicles the three men were driving
when arrested were a ``recipe for a robbery'' which included a
check-off list that included ``escape routes'' and ``emergency
phone numbers.''
^REUTER@
___-------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never attribute to malice that which stupidity explains
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: More Christanic Terror 3
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:52:00
EID:b0c3 226d0680
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326df30
Isn't this a wonderful blast. Our ever-lovin' gun-totin' PASTOR Paul
Hill was back in court last week regarding his murder conviction and
death sentence.
How could we ever forget that this man, who slayed two men in late
June 1994 was a practicing Minister at the time, who has been now
defrocked.
Yes, Jimson, this man was a Christian at the time of his perpetration
and did it because of his religious dogma. *YOU* are in error, now, Jim.
And remember, Paul Hill is ONE of yours, Jim!
Enjoy, everyone!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
03:05 PM ET 03/06/97
Fla. high court upholds death for abortion shooter
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (Reuter) - Florida's highest court
Thursday upheld the murder conviction and death sentence of a
former preacher who gunned down a doctor and his assistant
outside a Pensacola abortion clinic.
Paul Hill, a defrocked minister who acted as his own
attorney during his murder trial, faces death in Florida's
electric chair for the shotgun slayings of Dr. John Britton and
his driver, James Barrett, outside the Ladies Center on June 29,
1994.
By unanimous ruling, the state supreme court denied
arguments by attorneys representing Hill that he should not have
been allowed to defend himself. During the trial, Hill called no
witnesses and did not offer evidence in his defense.
``The judge was not required to give Hill a lesson on how to
try a lawsuit before finding that Hill was making a knowing
waive of his right to counsel,'' the court wrote. ``It was
enough for Hill to be alerted generally to the difficulties of
navigating the legal system...''
The high court also ruled that the trial judge correctly
prevented Hill from arguing that the shootings were justified
because he was protecting fetuses from harm.
In the first such ruling in the state, Florida's highest
court followed the lead of other courts across the country by
asserting that justifiable homicide cannot be used as a defense
because abortion is a legal procedure. Therefore, the court
ruled, one's opposition to abortion cannot be used to justify
illegal acts.
``As a practical matter, permitting a defendant to vindicate
his or her criminal behavior in such a manner would be an
invitation to lawlessness,'' the court ruled.
Thursday's ruling was the latest appellate development in
Hill's case. The state supreme court had previously ruled that
Hill did not have the right to defend himself in the appeals
process.
Michael Hirsch, an attorney representing Hill, could not
immediately be reached for comment.
^REUTER@
___-------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Bugger me with a fish fork!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: More Christanic Terror 4
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:55:02
EID:7282 226d06e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326dfe6
Yet another identity white-supremacist Christian, this time slaying
black people.
A Christian with "pure, unmitigated evil"!
So much for a God of Love, eh? Look at his followers.
And so much for the brouhaha about gays in the military. Apparently,
gays aren't allowed to serve openly in the military, but neo-Nazi
skinhead, white supremacist murderers are.
Someone simply has to let William Cohen know about the screwed up
priorities in the military!
Enjoy!
___--------------------------------------------------------------------
06:50 PM ET 03/06/97
US judge imposes life sentence in race killings
(Adds more details, clarifies sentences consecutive not
concurrent)
By Knight Chamberlain
FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. (Reuter) - A white former paratrooper who
prosecutors called ``pure, unmitigated evil'' was sentenced to
life in prison Thursday for gunning down two black people in a
racially motivated killing.
In a rambling address to the court before he was sentenced,
ex-Army soldier James Burmeister apologized to the families of
the victims but called the case against him ``smoke and
mirrors'' and said his fight for justice was not over.
Superior Court Judge Coy Brewer sentenced Burmeister, 21, to
two consecutive life prison terms after a jury deadlocked 11-1
in favor of executing him.
Burmeister, who will have to serve at least 50 years on the
two murder convictions before becoming eligible for parole, also
was sentenced to 16 to 20 years for conspiracy to commit murder.
``We're delighted the son of a bitch will be put away for
the rest of his life,'' prosecutor Edward Grannis said.
Burmeister was found guilty last Thursday in the racially
motivated slayings of Michael James, 36, and Jackie Burden, 27,
on Dec. 7, 1995. The jury found he shot the couple at close
range as they walked along a street in Fayetteville, which
adjoins Fort Bragg, home to the Army's elite 82nd Airborne
Division.
In a halting speech to the court, his voice occasionally
cracking, Burmeister apologized to the victim's families for the
pain they suffered but criticized the state's case against him.
``If the state has chosen to blame me for this, so be it for
now,'' Burmeister said. ``I'm not conceding and I'm not going to
quit. It's not over by any means.
The seven-man, five-woman jury deliberated for about seven
hours over two days before saying it was hung. Once the jury was
declared deadlocked, Brewer could not impose a death sentence by
state law.
Jurors who spoke to reporters after the hearing said they
had deadlocked 11-1 in favor of the death penalty. The holdout
was a woman.
``I'm sure when she told the court that she could impose
the death penalty if it was warranted, that when faced with the
reality, she could not do it,'' juror Darcy Day, 28, said.
Jurors said they hoped the result of the trial would send a
message to hate groups that such violence would not be
tolerated.
Prosecutors said during the trial that Burmeister
represented ``pure, unmitigated evil,'' and in final statements
argued that no evidence was presented to indicate Burmeister's
hatred for blacks, Jews and other minorities had changed.
They said Burmeister wanted to earn a ``spider web'' tattoo,
a skinhead symbol police say represents the killing of a gay or
black person. White supremacist and bomb-making literature and a
Nazi flag were found at Burmeister's trailer.
Defense lawyers said the sudden death of Burmeister's sister
led to his heavy drinking, stunting his emotional growth to the
point that he was swayed by racist skinhead rhetoric that led
him to kill.
Burmeister was drinking in a bar on the base with fellow
soldiers Randy Meadows and Malcolm Wright before the murders.
Meadows pleaded guilty to involvement in the crime and became
the prosecution's key witness.
Relatives of the two victims who spoke outside the court
after sentence was passed said they did not accept Burmeister's
apology.
``This man is sick. he really needs help,'' said Nancy
James, widow of Michael James.
``The crime called for the ultimate punishment. I do not
understand Mr. Burmeister's remarks. I do not accept his
apology,'' said Georgia Burden, Jackie Burden's aunt. ``It was
too little, too late.''
^REUTER@
___--------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Physicist: An atom's way of knowing about atoms!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: One Nation Under God?
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:58:04
EID:a14c 226d0740
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326e09c
This is yet another example of religious dogma interacting with the
political system. This is an example of why people of non-Christian
belief should fear the idea of One Nation Under God!
___-------------------------------------------------------------------
08:39 AM ET 03/05/97
Taleban to punish men with trimmed beards
By Tim Johnston
KABUL, March 5 (Reuter) - Afghanistan's purist Islamic
Taleban said on Wednesday the militia would start punishing men
who had trimmed their beards.
``As of today our teams went out on the streets to punish
those who have cut their beards,'' the acting head of the
department for Promoting Virtue and Preventing Vice, Maulawi
Qalamuddin, told reporters.
``There are sanctions for those who have not obeyed our
orders about growing their beards, and the deadline has expired.
The punishment is one day in jail and two or more lashes. They
will be released if someone will give a guarantee (that they
will not trim their beards in future),'' he added.
The Taleban, who captured Kabul in September and now control
more than two-thirds of Afghanistan, have vowed to impose strict
Islamic Sharia law on the country.
Shortly after they took Kabul, the Taleban announced that it
was an Islamic obligation of all Moslem men to grow a beard.
They said the beard should grow long enough to extend beyond a
fist gripping the beard at the chin.
Qalamuddin said 60 percent of men had accepted the rules but
that others had not.
``Almost 60 percent of the people have accepted the
announcement about growing their beards, but the other 40
percent have avoided it by presenting various excuses,'' he
said.
He said the Taleban had tried to persuade men to grow their
beards, and now there was no excuse.
``We have tried to let people know about growing their
bears through many channels, but if we fail we will have to
force them to grow beards,'' said Qalamuddin.
Qalamuddin also reiterated that punishment of women who
failed to follow strict dress codes was part of Taleban policy.
The Taleban have said women should not venture outside the
home unless they wore a burqa, a shroud-like head-to-toe veil
with a small patch of gauze over the eyes.
They have said Iranian or Saudi-style veils, which show the
eyes, are not acceptable.
There have been a number of cases in which women whom the
Taleban considered improperly covered have been beaten with
sticks, lengths of hosepipe, or radio antennas.
Qalamuddin said women had been told about the edict, and
other citizens enlisted to make sure it was observed.
``We had repeatedly told women to observe Islamic hejab
(veil). We announced to taxi drivers that they were not to take
women passengers who were not properly covered; we told
shopkeepers not to sell to women who did not observe hejab.
``We used all possible means to to stop them wearing
unIslamic coverings. We have got tired of telling them, and if
they still don't obey, then of course they will be beaten.''
There has been strong criticism of the Taleban's treatment
of women since they took over Kabul. Apart from the strict dress
code, the militia has placed restrictions on women working and
closed schools for girls.
Western nations have expressed displeasure at the Taleban's
policy on women.
Last year the United Nations special rapporteur on violence
against women, Radhika Coomaraswamy, released a statement that
specifically referred to discrimination against Afghan women.
^REUTER@
___-------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Christians wanted, apply at Perth Zoo's lion cage
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Something For Ken!
|Date: 13 Mar 97 00:59:06
EID:8f2e 226d0760
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326e0da
Ken:
Something for you to disprove to you that gays can serve openly in the
military if they just "go away" and "be quiet".
More proof that a policy of silence by the victims does *NOT* work when
the opposing bigots don't respect the rules of the game.
Rod "...I love you, Ken, I just hate your lifestyle" Swift :)
___----------------------------------------------------------------------
THE BOSTON GLOBE March 8, 1997
Box 2378,Boston, MA 02107
(Fax 617-929-2098, print run 516,981)
(E-MAIL: letter@globe.com)(http://www.boston.com/globe)
EDITORIAL
An Assault on Gays in the Military
The instructions sound simple: Don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue. But
President Clinton's policy of tolerance for gays in the military appears
to
have backfired.
The story is in the numbers. In 1996, 850 gay military personnel were
discharged, a five-year high and the highest rate of discharge since 1987,
according to the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network.
The network labels the de facto practice "ask, pursue, and harass" and
backs the numbers with disturbing examples of service personnel who were
questioned repeatedly about their sexual orientation and threatened about
the
penalties for not answering.
In a particularly perverse twist, the organization found that women,
regardless of their sexual orientation, were labeled lesbians for rejecting
men's sexual advances or for reporting incidents of sexual assault or
harassment. In some cases, officials investigated only the lesbianism
allegations.
The implication? The Defense Department habitually breaks the law. The
department, however, is tight-lipped about defending itself. Yes, it kows
all about the report, and yes, it will look into it, as the Servicemembers
Legal Defense Network also made a valid case last year. But don't expect
a
publicly staged nostra culpa.
The network has suggested a more aggressive response that includes
additional "don't ask, don't tell" training for military personnel and the
disciplining of commanders who ignore the regulations. The military would
still be free to dismiss personnel who declare that they are gay or have
sex
with or try to marry someone of the same gender.
Changing organizations takes time. But as the leader who swung a
spotlight on the issue of gays in the military, President Clinton should
be
at the front lines of this effort. The worst don't ask, don't tell
violations merit an executive office bellow of CUT IT OUT! [italics in
original]. And as commander in chief, the president can also insist that
in
the United States military, gossip, false accusations, and harassment of
any
kind will not win the day.
___----------------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Fundamentalist: (n) Ape-like creature with a Bible
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: All
|Sub: Report on Hate Groups
|Date: 13 Mar 97 01:01:08
EID:30d8 226d0820
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3326e154
More hate groups on the rise.
Remember, lots of these are right-wing Christian groups.
Enjoy...
___-----------------------------------------------------------------
03:02 PM ET 03/04/97
US report says violent extremists groups on rise
MONTGOMERY, Ala (Reuter) - Violent extremist groups have
grown in number and vehemence since the Oklahoma City bombing
two years ago, an organization that monitors hate crime activity
in the United States warned Tuesday.
The Klanwatch Project of the Southern Poverty Law Center
said at least 858 so-called Patriot groups were active in the 50
U.S. states last year, including 380 armed militias. The figures
represented a six percent rise in the number of groups
identified by Klanwatch in 1994 and 1995.
The Montgomery-based organization, which distributes
statistics on hate-crime activity to U.S. law enforcement, said
101 militias and their support groups had ties to white
supremacist and anti-Semitic organizations.
In a report entitled ``Two Years After: The Patriot Movement
Since Oklahoma City,'' Klanwatch warned that extremists have
begun to develop a nationwide intelligence network and have
increased their use of phony financial claims against public
officials in a practice known as ``paper terrorism.''
A coalition of militias spanning 14 states distributed
intelligence-gathering guidelines to members in February, the
report said. Recommended activities ranged from scrutinizing
news reports to persuading utility workers to divulge
information on their employers' security procedures.
Meanwhile false liens and fabricated financial statements
have been filed against selected victims in the public sector by
renegade judicial bodies known as ``common-law courts.'' In 1996
about 112 such self-proclaimed courts were operating in 34
states.
``The Patriot movement is firmly entrenched in this
country,'' Klanwatch director Joe Roy said.
``A winnowing process has taken place since Oklahoma City.
While casual adherents have abandoned the cause, new groups have
been formed to take their place. What remains are true believers
who are isolated from the political mainstream and committed to
an extreme anti-government agenda.''
Federal investigators suspect a cell of rightwing extremists
was behind recent bombings of an abortion clinic and a gay and
lesbian nightclub in Atlanta. The incidents injured about a
dozen people.
There have been no arrests in either bombing. Last July's
Centennial Olympic Park bombing, which left two dead and more
than 100 injured in downtown Atlanta during the Summer Games,
also remained unsolved.
The Klanwatch report warned of more violence in the future,
including the possibility of biochemical attacks, and pointed to
a declining percentage of American voters as evidence that
Patriot groups would continue to have large pools of alienated
citizens from which to recruit new members.
^REUTER@
___-----------------------------------------------------------------
* OLX 2.1 TD * Windows isn't crippleware. It's functionally-challenged.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Irc Log Fun!
|Date: 13 Mar 97 10:53:58
EID:c225 226d56a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 306c34f4
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3320f7ba
On (08 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> * On 06-03-97 at 10:17, JIM STAAL wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
RS> on the topic of "Irc Log Fun!" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> FR> You're 100% willful slave to hatred.
JS> You are really the _only_ hateful person on this echo. You hate God,
JS> His Christ, and anyone who bears the name Christian.
RS> Except, of course, when you want to claim that I'm the most
RS> hateful person on the echo, of course... :) :)
JS> ... Teach them to observe ALL my commandments - Matthew 28:20
RS> Why do you not observe Leviticus 20:13, and the stoning that you
RS> must carry out on gays?
Where did Christ command it?
RS> Then again, why haven't you sacrificed your first born male child
RS> to God?
Where did Christ (or any OT command) command it?
... Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. (1 The 5:21)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Lon Mabon
|Date: 13 Mar 97 11:02:24
EID:1bfc 226d5840
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 31e7b37a
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3320fb4a
On (08 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> * On 06-03-97 at 10:22, JIM STAAL wrote to FREDRIC RICE,
RS> on the topic of "Lon Mabon" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> FR> Why do you use Lon S. Mabon's name? Could it be because you're
in
JS> FR> agreement with his traditional Christianity as outlined above,
pig?
JS> The correct question was 'why _did_ I use the name Lon S. Mabon. (there
JS> is no such person).
RS> There is such a person as Lon Mabon. Don't you read your
RS> Oregonian political news?
There is no such person as Lon S. Mabon. maybe there is a 'lon mabon'
but there is no Lon S. Mabon.
... He that denieth the faith, and is worse than an infidel. - 1 Tim. 5:8
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Baby in Critical Conditi
|Date: 13 Mar 97 11:03:22
EID:cf7d 226d5860
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 deb7c8e9
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3320fda8
On (08 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> (Prov 31:27 NIV) She watches over the affairs of her household and
does
JS> not eat the bread of idleness.
RS> Too bad she allows you to be so slothful that you are unemployed.
RS> Too bad that you don't stop eating from the bread of idleness
RS> Jim, and that you have weak arms.
Being self-employed is not being unemployed.
... For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 6:7)
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: God's Advocate (1:228/45.5)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 12 Mar 97 16:22:00
EID:c0ab 226c82c0
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Roger Hunter <=-
RC> Depending on how one orders things, the "first" could be associated
RC> with any cardinal number, like the first day after a warranty expires.
All right, I can't argue that with you. All I meant was that in the
real world, if I give you a pile of beans to count, you'll call the
"first" bean "one", not "zero".
... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1997
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: CLONES VS CLOWNS
|Date: 12 Mar 97 16:55:00
EID:94af 226c86e0
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Judith Bandsma <=-
KY> Not sure if I said this in this echo or not, but a clone likely would
KY> not have a soul. One can copy a living thing physically, but the
KY> spiritual part is something different altogether. How in the world
do
KY> you create a soul?
I knew you would say that! Ok, so you tell me; we have a living human
being, human in all respects, but he/she was produced by inserting
the DNA from someone into an emptied-out egg (human) which was
implanted and grew to maturity. This person is indistinguishable
from any other human in matters of appearance and/or behavior.
What is this "soul" thing?
... VD: Never practice license without a medicine.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: KEN YOUNG: POSTER CHI
|Date: 12 Mar 97 17:26:00
EID:3754 226c8b40
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Karl Schneider <=-
KY> Also, I have met gays who also say that they weren't always that way.
Possibly not, before puberty. Or they were just lying to themselves.
KY> You may be able to argue whether or not some were born that way, but
KY> there is nothing you can say to help your argument that all gays or
bis
KY> were born that way.
You mean you have your fingers in your ears and are shouting "IS NOT!"
too loudly for you to hear any evidence.
We're onto you, Ken.
... Sorry, the Dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Joe Shedlock
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Test your knowledge
|Date: 12 Mar 97 12:14:10
EID:2b54 226c61c0
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 33285dce
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to All on 08 Mar 97 22:48:10 <=-
RS> As I promised. The US Federal Bureau of Prisons sent me data on
RS> religious affiliation at time of prison entry for all prisoners in
RS> Federal prisons.
RS> You have 96,968 prisoners total to divide among the following groups:
RS> Moorish
Huh? I didn't know that "Moorish" was a religion. I thought it reflected
more on national origin.
RS> Mormons
RS> Muslims
RS> Nation (?)
I assume this is short for "Nation of Islam," which I assume means "Black
Muslim," or Farrakhan's (sp?) group.
RS> Orthodox
RS> Pentecostal
RS> Protestant
RS> Rasta
RS> Santeria
RS> Scientology
RS> Sikh
RS> No Preference 13,878
RS> Unknown 4,503
RS> Post your guesses here. I'll post the actual figures on 21 March.
RS> You will be surprised by the results.
I would really feel stupid trying to guess. I prefer just to look at
the facts.
I wonder whether you could contact the Australian Bureau of Prisons, or
whatever the nearest counterpart is there, and give the Australian
figures for comparison purposes.
... "There are no bad haircuts in cyberspace."- Dave Barry
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.30
* Origin: Skeeter Haven "Nashville, TN" (615) 872-8609 (1:116/17)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: God Dan
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 13 Mar 97 13:21:59
EID:0d8a 226d6aa0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3327ff77
-> On 11 Mar 97 19:30:12, Ken Young got back to God Dan
GD> Hitler was an xian believer, Kenny.
KY> DId Hitler have any "Christian" beliefs? Sure.. But He also had many
KY> anti-Christian ones, as well.. Hitler believed in a mixture of
KY> Christianity and the Occult.
You still do not understand what 'Occult' means, do you, Kenny.
The word describes your religion to a 'T'. Need an example?
... DD stands for "Doctor of Deception".......
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 13 Mar 97 13:24:04
EID:95b5 226d6b00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3327fff4
-> On 11 Mar 97 19:31:32, Ken Young got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Aren't you the little bigot that claims that homosexuals cannot
DC> repent?
KY> Nope. I was misunderstood. All I was saying was that while they are
KY> gay, they cannot become Christian. But once they accept Christ as
KY> their savior, all homosexuality is gone.
You really are that naive, aren't you, Kenny.
... Jimmy Swaggart's home for wayward girls: Paradise Motel!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 13 Mar 97 13:59:09
EID:6326 226d6f60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3328082d
-> On 12 Mar 97 08:11:17, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
RS> You use the word "gook" as a synonym for the languages and
RS> peoples of Vietnam.
JS>So what has that to do with speaking/spelling Gook, eh?
DC> while you ignore your use of the word, 'Gook', "English Major".
JS> Two things, sir:
That's God Dan to you, shithook.
JS> b. where above did I make any reference to the _peoples_ of
JS> Vietnam as Rod accused?? Huh?
You have all the intelligence of a truck load of fence post holes.
... "brain": the part of the body never mentioned in the bible. J Mus.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: J.J. NEEDS TO BE
|Date: 13 Mar 97 14:08:42
EID:5f61 226d7100
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33280a6a
-> On 09 Mar 97 21:25:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Fredric Rice
DG> that to confound people like you ever since. P.S.: Christianity is
DG> NOT a death cult. Only one death was ever needed---and even that one
DG> was followed by a resurrection.
Then, Darryl, Darryl and your other brother Darryl, explain all
of those "non-deaths" meted out by the Crusades, Inquisition
and other assorted witch burnings.
... Atheists don't kill people because the Big Bang told them to.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Lunatic buttfucks
|Date: 13 Mar 97 14:43:51
EID:8a6d 226d7560
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332812a7
-> On 10 Mar 97 10:32:08, Ken Wiens got back to Robert Curry
KW> Only He knows when He is coming. That He is coming you can take
KW> to the bank.
I tried. They didn't allow me any collateral on it.
... "Have any honest answers, or will you respond like a xian?" D Martin
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 13 Mar 97 15:40:50
EID:2e59 226d7d00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33282002
-> On 10 Mar 97 09:49:00, Ken Wiens got back to Dan Ceppa
KW> in this crowd. You know, peer pressure. You don't strike
KW> me as one of those who'd have an original thought in his
KW> head more than once in twenty years.
You are talking about yourself again, Kenny.
DC>How many 12 year old rape victims did you execute during
DC>your sabbatical?
I see you are going to ignore the question and hope it goes away.
KW> How many babies who would have had normal human lives
KW> otherwise did you abort during my sabbatical?
None, Kenny. Nor did I require a single woman to have an
abortion. You, OTOH, perfer the death penataly for 12
year old inscestuous rape victims that opt for one.
... When you deny others their rights, you deny yourself those same rights
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: bible translations
|Date: 13 Mar 97 15:49:03
EID:27a8 226d7e20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332821ef
-> On 09 Mar 97 22:06:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Sam Ferguson
DG> Also, got any evidence that Josephus's history isn't correct?
No serious bible scholar accepts the obvious later date insertions
into Josephus as being other than what it is: An xian forgery.
... Why does an inerrant bible require explainations?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Al Debunks Applesauc
|Date: 13 Mar 97 20:24:06
EID:d973 226da300
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33286266
-> On 07 Mar 97 07:04:56, Don Martin got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Wasn't it Will Rogers?
DM> You are obviously too old to qualify as a "youngster".
Am NOT!
DM> (I only mentioned Sequim there because of sinful
DM> pride--I may be the only person in Baltimore who knows how
DM> to pronounce it.)
It is how we get the jump on outsiders. Makes them quite
easy to spot when tourist season is open.
DC> board. However, I'm not sure if anyone has that much C-4
DC> and no one real knows how far it is to hell and back,
DM> I wouldn't sweat the small stuff--aim them for Victoria
DM> and let the RCMP do the tidying up.
Can't do that, at least not this weekend, as I'll be up
there sailing. No use being known as a litterer!
... The only sure thing in life is TAXES! You can no longer afford to die!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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