God Damned Fundies!
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 19 Mar 97 11:25:09
EID:7cc7 22735b20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 332fcd15
-> On 18 Mar 97 10:59:27, Jim Staal got back to Karen Davis
KD> I found *birth* to be disgusting. Shall I outlaw that?
JS> The pro-choicers have already tried and suceeded in doing that.
And the name of that law is?
Yes, Staal, you are an idiot par excellance.
... "Sometimes the only intellectually appropriate response is `Fuck you'"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:47:03
EID:c0f2 22738de0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33302697
-> On 18 Mar 97 11:14:23, Jim Staal got back to DAVID RICE
Here's Jim-bozo's latest attempt to get another line in the FAQ:
>RC> Would YOU torture babies in hell?
JS> No.
DR> Then why do you claim to worship a god that would?
JS> (no claim. it be de trute) He knows what He's doing. I don't.
Truer words were never written by Staaled.
... Watcha doing, Willlllllllbuuuuuuurrrrr? -- Staalin, the Talking Fundy
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|From: God Dan
|To: Mary Smith
|Sub: Motion Passed
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:53:43
EID:f21b 22738ea0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33302827
-> On 18 Mar 97 11:02:00, Mary Smith got back to God Dan
MS> HOW CAN YOU BOTH USE THE LORDS NAME IN VEIN?
I, unlike you, don't take drugs, let alone take them
intravenously.
Anyhow, what's your god damned problem? Your CAPS Lock key
break by the will of Satan or something?
Take another snort of Jesus Christ and call me back when
you fucking calm down.
... "FUCK your God-thing and his lying book of fairy-tales!" -Ryan Shaw
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 19 Mar 97 22:25:16
EID:d566 2273b320
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 333067cc
-> On 16 Mar 97 13:19:44, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa
RS> He also provided no evidence, but I suspect he is referring to
RS> the only case that has received publicity -- that of Bottoms v
RS> Bottoms in Viriginia.
I'm not familiar with that one. Let me know if you find
anything on it.
Thanks!
... +Origin: Revival Network: Come more than one way for Jey-zues!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: You forgot to answer this...
|Date: 19 Mar 97 22:57:21
EID:b146 2273b720
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33306f51
-> On 18 Mar 97 01:42:12, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> Not so. All twelve of the Disciples were Jews.
DC> And, even if they existed, none of them where xians. They
DC> were following a Jewish messiah, not a construct of Saul.
MB> The word "christian" doesn't appear in the Bible. For that
MB> matter, neither does the word "trinity," or a whole host of
MB> other words that are currently in the xian lexicon.
You won't happen to have a list of those floating around,
would you? }:-)
... 666: Number of the Beast - 668: Neighbor of the Beast
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:00:21
EID:32f4 2273b800
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307005
-> On 16 Mar 97 11:38:42, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa
Here, Jimbo. Go fetch.
DC> ... Messiah looking for jailbait = Jesus of Swaggart.
RS> ___------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest.
RS> -- Rev. Jimmy Swaggart, "Jimmy Swaggart Hour"
RS> August 19, 1984
RS> ___------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> Ironic, isn't it Dan, that Swaggart should condemn incest to
RS> raise money for his ministry, while being all for little
RS> nine-year-old girls.
RS> Rod "...I wonder if Jimson will still hold Swaggart to be a
RS> Christian?" Swift :)
... +Origin: SHAM NETWORK: Fallacies and fulminations for Kryst!
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:22:49
EID:32d2 2273bac0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307549
-> On 17 Mar 97 08:36:18, John Brawley got back to Christopher Hughes
CH> > Take away five black marbles, _you_ have six _marbles_ left; _I_
CH> would > have five --the correct number (10 - 5 = 5).
CH> But how many black ones, John? What's 5-5?
JB> Five minus five is "zero." Five black marbles minus five black
JB> marbles is "no black marbles." Ten marbles (black OR white) minus
ten
JB> marbles leaves one marble, IFF there's a "zero marble" in the mixture.
Sorry, John, but you are mixing black apples with orange oranges.
... "Bother", said Pooh, and hid Piglet's corpse.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:25:09
EID:cea9 2273bb20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 333075d5
-> On 17 Mar 97 13:26:24, Judith Bandsma got back to Don Martin
-=> Don complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Ken <=-
DM> 12-year-old rape victim, to which you either said "yes" or
DM> evaded answering with the fundy shuffle. In this context,
JB> He not only replied 'yes' in that context, but stated that she was
JB> having the abortion because she couldn't tell the truth about what SHE
JB> had done.
I nearly forgot about that little tidbit of Kenny's find xian
example. Thanks for reminding me that it was the little girl's
fault that she got pregnant by her "loving" daddy.
... Choose heaven for climate, hell for society.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CHEESE WHIZ
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:30:15
EID:9b59 2273bbc0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307707
-> On 18 Mar 97 04:09:00, Roger Hunter got back to Dan Ceppa
RH> Jim; picture yourself trying to shit a softball.
DC> From what I have been told: More like a watermellon.
RH> Oh well, you know how these women like to exaggerate .
Use extreme caution on the next chocolate anything that you eat!
Seriously, the woman that told me that had a couple of kids.
She was in the hospital at the time I met her for gall stones.
I was there because of kidney stones. And, it turns out that
she had kindey stones as well.
In attempting to compare the pain, she told me that kindey
stones were by far the most painful, at least for her.
... And God smote Egypt with a plague of zucchini.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:37:18
EID:7f2e 2273bca0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 333078ae
-> On 18 Mar 97 18:06:26, George Harper got back to Roger Hunter
GH> #1: I am NOT a "fundy", but that isn't an apology for my opinions.
That remains to be seen.
GH> I hate to burst your bubble, but because ALL are created in sin,
"Sin" is a construct of your religion, nothing more.
GH> all MUST receive forgiveness for that sin, as well as any sins
Only if you believe the bullshit that you have been handed.
GH> committed during the lifetime. That is biblical fact, and that
Is that anything like the biblical "fact" of a worldwide flood?
GH> condemns even an unborn fetus' soul to eternal damnation...you
Wrong again, George. The only penalty for causing a miscarriage
in the bible is to provide compensation to the owner of the
person carrying the fetus.
... "I'm not a fundy, I just act like one." 'George Harper'
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:45:44
EID:38aa 2273bda0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307aa8
-> On 18 Mar 97 10:15:28, Mark O'Neill got back to Dan Ceppa
With: KY Jelly
KY>> gay, they cannot become Christian. But once they accept Christ as
KY>> their savior, all homosexuality is gone.
DC> You really are that naive, aren't you, Kenny.
MO> I think what he's saying is that once you accept christ you're cured
MO> from homsexuality forever but not paedophilia(sp?).
Pedophilia seems to be a prerequiste to becoming a minister,
though I think the spelling is "monster".
... Born Again Christian = "I guess I myth'd again."
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:50:03
EID:f5c3 2273be40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307bab
-> On 16 Mar 97 13:06:36, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa
RS> * On 11-03-97 at 22:23, DAN CEPPA wrote to KEN YOUNG,
DC> And, most importantly: When was the last time you took your
DC> head out of the sand?
RS> Strange. I've never seen such a creative spelling of "asshole"
RS> before. "Sand", huh?
RS> God Dan, you are a visionary! :)
My anti-fundy filter missed it. It should have corrected that
to tell Kenny to "pound salt up his ass".
... ([Saul of Tarsus] + [Epileptic Seizure]) = Christianity
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Drugs
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:54:06
EID:a642 2273bec0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307c9e
-> On 18 Mar 97 07:25:21, Don Martin got back to Quentin Fai
QF> I wonder what would happen if someone stashed a bale of marijuana in
QF> the White House. Hmmmmmmmmmmm................................
DM> The next morning white smoke would rise and a new Pope
DM> would be proclaimed.
Far fucking out, man!
(Got any munchies?)
... One nation, under God, with Liberty, large fries, and a Coke to go.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:59:30
EID:4420 2273bf60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307de2
-> On 16 Mar 97 11:22:28, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> KY> But it is possible for people with their own mind power to change
DC> KY> themselves physically. This may sound bizarre, but it is definitely
DC> Change yourself into a hippopotamus. That would be really bizarre.
RS> Hey, let's pick something inanimate. How about a table?
That would be a step above the dead tree stump that he is.
... May your enemies get cramps in their legs as they dance on your grave
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|From: God Dan
|To: Mary Smith
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 00:02:43
EID:800c 22740040
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307ea3
-> On 18 Mar 97 10:55:00, Mary Smith got back to Becke Boyer
BB> No more awkward than heterosexual sex, Jelly. Or do you think oral a
BB> sex between heterosexuals is unnatural as well?
MS> WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH RELIGION DEBATE? OR DO I HAVE MY
Perhaps it's the problem that you religionoids have about SEX!!!!!
MS> CONFERENCES ALL MESSED UP? I HOPE NOT CAUSE THIS IS MORE LIKE A SEX
MS> CONFERENCE THEN A BIBLE/RELIGION CONFERENCE.
Getting too turned on by it? If so, do lock a lot of what is
mentioned in your bible out of your head.
MS> PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I HAVE MY CONFERENCES ALL MESSED UP.
As before, you have your CAPS Lock key MESSED UP. Try turning
it off.
... Exodus 21:7-11 Female servants are sex slaves.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 20 Mar 97 00:08:13
EID:ff02 22740100
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33307fed
-> On 17 Mar 97 19:11:56, Ken Young got back to Rod Swift
KY> WHy I am against gay rights, is because I see it as special rights.
I
KY> am for equality, but I do not see that as being the homosexual agenda.
Strange... The gays don't seem to hold your heterosexuality
against you.
Why can't you reciprocate?
... The Bill of Rights - void where prohibited by law.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 20 Mar 97 00:16:05
EID:363d 22740200
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 333081c5
-> On 18 Mar 97 11:36:59, Jim Staal got back to Ken Wiens
DC> What law are you going to pass out your asshole to make it
DC> legal to execute a 12 yr old rape victim, Kenny
JS> Isn't it interesting how these folks seem to demand you do some sort
JS> of heinous deed. Rod Swift constantly insists that I go out and kill
JS> homosexuals. I do not understand that sort of demented thought
JS> process. I mean, Dan's demand here doesn't even make any sense.
Of course it doesn't, you imbecile. The example I gave above
is what your butt-buddy Wiens advocates. He's the fucking
asshole that posted exactly what was stated above.
He's one of yours, Milk-crate.
... Try to be better person than that asshole of a god you worship. RC
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: R Daily Xtian Persecutio
|Date: 20 Mar 97 00:19:04
EID:f3cd 22740260
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33308278
-> On 18 Mar 97 11:07:54, Ken Young got back to Dan Ceppa
KY>> of mixed faiths, because I don't. But a Pagan and a
KY>> Christian could fall in love, and get married for that
DC> He is oblivious to the way he points out his own racism in nearly
DC> every post he sends.
KY> Yes, I must be, so perhaps you can explain it to me. Enlighten me,
KY> how am I racist?
Try re-reading each and every post you have made in this Echo.
Do it carefully, as you are probably reading them for the
very first time.
Whether you like it or not, your racism comes through all too
load an clear.
... "I would be against most laws based on morality." Ken Young
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Missionary Threats
|Date: 20 Mar 97 08:15:38
EID:6f88 227441e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 3330f4a6
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 25098ca9
PID: GED3 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Fredric!
Saturni dies March 15 1997, Dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> Oh yes, I know their reasoning for subjicating the female over the male.
FR> Every get the idea that Joseph Smith was a dickless homosexual who hated
FR> women as much as Staal?
Er...no. You're referring to a guy who had "visions" from God, telling
him that it was OK to have more than one wife. If memory serves, he even
had a "retraction" vision (most likely spurred on by Emma Smith, who, for
some reason, didn't much care for the idea), which was reversed later.
Ol' Joe CERTAINLY liked the ladies, and he was going to define religious
dogma that would not make it a "sin" for him to pursue that particular hobby.
Check out Taves's "Trouble Enough" for the particulars.
sq>> Something tells me, though, that my wife is the head of the
sq>> household in their eyes simply because my name isn't listed
sq>> in their records. Therefore, my wishes are not to be honoured.
It amuses me to think that this would be easier if I were to join the church
and then quit. :)
sq>>> I've tried the same angle, Tom, and it was met with grunting, clearing
sq>>> of throats, and renewed and revitalized efforts to speak with my wife.
FR>> You got off lucky. I nearly had to shoot one, as you may recall.
As I mentioned in a previous message, I -really- don't want to find myself
in a position where these clowns come through the door.
FR> We discussed the laws in Texas, as I recall.
Oh, I know the laws. I also notice a trend by which the courts tend to
protect the offenders and not the victims. There's an issue of "Do I let
the bastard live and have him sue me because he can't walk or speak?" (Bernie
Goetz, anybody?), or "Do I neutralize him completely and then have to deal
with the courts?"
FR> I would rather be _alive_ and go through the courts.
My wife and I have discussed what will most likely happen if someone should
come through the door. Only we know. :)
FR> That's fine with me, too. As it turns out, after my mother died, I
FR> stopped getting late-night telephone calls from the local Mormons.
It's
FR> too bad the caller ID wasn't allowed in California until some two months
FR> ago. I would have loved to take that "Bishop" for every cent for
FR> malicious harassment.
Caller ID has been a wonderful tool here, as I've called back a LOT of numbers
after I get "RING RING" and then silence on the other end of the line. Typically,
I hear "Uh, sorry, I had the wrong number." Haven't yet noticed the same
name or phone number, so I'll let it slide.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
* Origin: Valencia: "Smarter than the average bear." (1:124/9005)
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|From: BRIAN KOLACY
|To: JASON HARMON
|Sub: Re: The IRCops are coming
|Date: 19 Mar 97 21:02:40
EID:2146 2273a840
TID: PX/Win v2.0 PX96-0423
MSGID: 1:2612/10 46f574bd
< JASON HARMON said in a message to LYNDA BUSTILLOZ >
JH> .MSGID: 1:3652/1 332DE2A6
-=> Quoting Lynda Bustilloz to ALL <=-
LB> Well....after over a year in business, the #holysmoke channel has
LB> finally had its first brush with IRC 'law'.
Bah, that's nothing new...We used to kick/ban 'em when we were on Undernet.
Non-Wild Berry
Pop-Tart eating bastards!
JH> But if that was too long, you could have always gone with the
JH> classic "Fuck the skull of Jesus!" No one could take offense with
JH> that.
Ha! Then we could start DCCing the accompanying .gif to random users.
LB> nope
LB> I have been getting complaints on it
JH> Hmmm....you think it could have been our friends from #hoas? :->
They're too busy typing congratulatory notes to their gods to take notice
of anyone else. Hell,
half of 'em don't know how to turn off "auto-invite".
JH> "Citizen, you have violated the Terms of Service!"
Nowadays, they send several lines of spam at you when you violate the "TOS",
detailing what
constitutes a violation...Funnily enough, I believe spam is a violation
itself. Glad I haven't
subscribed to 'em in several years.
JH> ... "Not a morning person" doesn't even begin to cover it.
Ha! Thank *you* I have to replace all the taglines containing derogatory
comments towards
Michael Hardy (which I've deleted), after all...
žMass starvation: What a beautiful choice.
--- UNREGISTERED CyberQWK v1.0 (c)95-97 Stryder Soft. Dev.
________________________________________________________________________
Cheers!
Mephisto
http://www.mephistopheles.org/abyss/
http://www.mephistopheles.org/abyss/
* Origin: BBS Networks @ bbsnets.com 301-863-5089 (1:2612/10)
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|From: BRIAN KOLACY
|To: MARY SMITH
|Sub: Re: Motion Passed
|Date: 19 Mar 97 23:17:14
EID:61f2 2273ba20
TID: PX/Win v2.0 PX96-0423
MSGID: 1:2612/10 010e53cb
< MARY SMITH said in a message to GOD DAN >
MS> HOW CAN YOU BOTH USE THE LORDS NAME IN VEIN?
Um...I dunno...A large syringe and some sort of minced god? Is this a trick
question?
žThis tagline has been cruelly tested on cute furry animals.
--- UNREGISTERED CyberQWK v1.0 (c)95-97 Stryder Soft. Dev.
________________________________________________________________________
Cheers!
Mephisto
http://www.mephistopheles.org/abyss/
mephisto@mephistopheles.org
brian@booklook.com
* Origin: BBS Networks @ bbsnets.com 301-863-5089 (1:2612/10)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Water and Flood.
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:46:14
EID:2ddf 22746dc0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89d1b71e
Hi Snarl,
(Re: yours of 13-Mar-1997, "Water and Flood.")
LA> So what caused the Flood? Why wouldn't the Earth have been
LA>struck by large meterors just as often, or MORE often, than
LA>the MOON? A large Asteroid could have struck the Earth and not
KS> It has, you idiot. We have an atmosphere.
Ah, our wonderful example of the world of the future, where
courtesy, rationality and tolerance becomes the norm, eh?!
LA> Think of the devastation that that would have caused? So
LA>if such a large Asteroid struck the earth then WHERE is the
LA>impact site eh? Let's see what you can suggest?
KS> The Yucatan. It has been found.
Ah, there was JUST ONE impact eh and THAT is IT! Now aint
that 'sumping'? Does THAT site really seem adequate?
KS> You know, the delightful irony of your inane bullshit
KS> is that not only have you not managed to persuade any
KS> nonbelievers that you have anything useful or truthful to
KS> say, you manage through your constant lies and idiocy to
KS> alienate even those who might be prone to support your
KS> cretinist crap.
You have a point there "Snarl". I grant you that
evolutionists are very stubborn and thick in the skull!
Their indoctrination has been very effective. Besides that
there DOES seem to be a significant "hormonal" component in
all this and THAT seems to over ride the most compelling
scientific evidence! No wonder S. J. Gould himself says
that;
"I well remember how the synthetic theory beguiled me
with its unifying power when I was a graduate student in
the mid-1960's. Since then I have been watching it slowly
unravel as a universal description of evolution. The
molecular assault came first, followed quickly by renewed
attention to unorthodox theories of speciation and by
challenges at the level of macroevolution itself."
"I have been reluctant to admit it-since beguiling is
often forever-but if Mayr's characterization of the
synthetic theory is accurate, then that theory, as a
general proposition, is effectively dead, despite its
persistence as textbook orthodoxy."
(Gould S.J., "Is a new and general theory of evolution
emerging?", Paleobiology, vol. 6(1), January 1980, p120)
So Gould has partly managed to shake himself FREE of a
significant part of his brainwashing and "beguiling" and
creationists are delighted to note how much genuine PROGRESS
he has made so far, even it it does seem that he has
"stalled"!
KS> You are our best ally.
That seems to contradict the number of times I have been
BANNED from different Echo's. Obviously you are mistaken.
Still, it does seem that YOU might be WEAKENING and that you
are desperately AFRAID to think for yourself. I suspect that
you might well be one of those referred to in the following;
"This is a book with a disturbing message; it points to
some unseemly cracks in the foundations. One is disturbed
because what is said gives us the uneasy feeling that we
knew it for a long time deep down but were never willing to
admit this even to ourselves."
"It is another one of those cold and uncompromising
situations where the naked truth and human nature travel in
different directions. The particular truth is simply that
we have no reliable evidence as to evolutionary sequence of
invertebrate phyla."
"We do not know what group arose from what other group
or whether, for instance, the transition from Protozoa
occurred once, or twice, or many times. We have been
telling our students for years not to accept any statement
on its face value but to examine the evidence, and,
therefore, it is rather a shock to discover that we have
failed to follow our own sound advice."
(John T. Bonner, reviewing a book by Prof. G.A. Kerkut,
(evolutionist), entitled; "IMPLICATIONS OF EVOLUTION",
in SCIENCE, Vol.133. March 17, 1961, p. 753: My Ref;
EVOLUTION: The Incredible hoax, Homer Duncan, (1978), p.12)
So I suspect that you "knew all along" that evolution must
really be utter bilge and tripe, but you would not admit it
even to yourself! THAT might well explain your "rage, anger
and irrational abuse". You no doubt actually hate yourself
because of your own inner conflict and inconsistency and
duplicity!
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBS Bris Aus +61-7-38033908 V34+ Node 2 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Harry Truman.
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:47:04
EID:7530 22746de0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89d1b789
Hi John,
(Re: yours of 12-Mar-1997, "Harry Truman.")
LA> evolutionary claims become "discarded hypotheses"! Creation
JB> ALL of the sciences have "discarded hypotheses."
Surely it is relevant just HOW MANY "discarded
hypotheses"? In the case of evolution, it is hardly proper
to refer to it as science at all and it appears to have more
discarded hypotheses than all the real sciences put
together. No wonder Sir Solly Zuckerman describes as in the
following;
'Perhaps the most outspoken researcher in the field of
paleoanthropology is Lord (Solly) Zuckerman (University of
Birmingham, England), noted authority on the
australopithecines. In discussing the degrees of objectivity in
the various branches of science, he said that the behavioral
sciences are at the low end of the objectivity spectrum. He
continued:
"We then move right off the register of
objective truth into those fields of presumed
biological science, like extrasensory perception
or the interpretation of man's fossil history,
where to the faithful anything is possible - and
where the ardent believer is sometimes able to
believe several contradictory things at the same
time."
(Beyond the Ivory Tower, (1971), p. 19, as
quoted in; Bones of Contention, Lubenow, 1992, p.
25)
When evolutionists of the stature of Zuckerman say things
like that then evolution must be seen as lower than the
lowest Pseudoscience!
JB> Science's glory is its technique, which yields
JB> ever-more-accurate, ever-closer images of actual reality.
Your constant reference to the revered word "science" in
realation to evolution has to be a misleading deception and
it is no wonder that Karl Popper wrote that;
"I have come to the conclusion that Darwinism is not a
testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research
programme - a possible framework for testable theories. It
suggests the existence of a mechanism of adaptation and it
allows us to even study in detail the mechanism at work. And it
is the only theory so far which does that."
(UNENDED QUEST (1976), as referenced in; Darwin's Enigma, p. 28)
JB> You seem to miss that, which is not surprising: religion
JB> has no "discarded hypotheses" because it has no critical
JB> truth-extracting technique; and no _hypotheses_ to begin
JB> with. Religion says "it's SO! and that's the end of it!"
JB> Science says "it might be so; let's test it!"
That is just the standard evolutionary nonsense line of
course. The Christian religion is based almost totally on
facts and evidence, although all others are necessarily just
as much humbug as is evolution!
'Marjorie Grene, . . . a well-known philosopher of
science (she authored chapters in books along with
prominent evolutionists), proclaimed that:
"It is as a religion of science that Darwinism chiefly
held, and holds men's minds. . . The modified but still
characteristically Darwinian theory has itself become an
orthodoxy, preached by its adherents with religious
fervor, and doubted, they feel, only by a few muddlers
imperfect in scientific truth."'
(Marjorie Grene, ENCOUNTER, November 1959, p.49 - Ref:
Creationists ANSWER their Critics, Gish, 1993, p.31)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBS Bris Aus +61-7-38033908 V34+ Node 2 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Water and Flood.
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:47:48
EID:532b 22746de0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89d1b7e0
Hi Damien,
(Re: yours of 13-Mar-1997, "Water and Flood.")
LA> Struck out eh! Besides that I doubt if Leipeig, would know
LA> the time of day anyway! Such people are NOT educated, but
LA> brainwashed in the doctrines and faith of the current
LA> evolutionary priesthood!
DW> And someone who considers seriously the myths of
DW> relatively ignorant sheepherders to be ironclad truth IS
DW> educated?
Since I have NOT been discussing the Old Testament, but
rather the scientific evidence then your comment seems to be
irrelevant.
DW> Science ain't perfect, and several things that we think
DW> are true today will probably be shown to not be so.
Are you seriously referring to "evolution" as science?
Surely not? Evolution is a philosophy that real science has
constantly and consistently forced to "self-correct" their
wild and irrational claims. Today there is nothing of
substance left of evolution as science! e.g.
"The missing link between man and the apes, whose absence has
comforted religious fundamentalists since the days of Darwin,
is merely the most glamorous of a whole hierarchy of phantom
creatures."
"In the fossil record, missing links are the rule: ....The
more scientists have searched for the transitional forms that
lie between species, the more they have been frustrated."
(Newsweek, 3rd. November, 1980, p. 54)
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
* Origin: Fox's Lair BBS Bris Aus +61-7-38033908 V34+ Node 2 (3:640/238)
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Water and Flood (b).
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:52:28
EID:0ca6 22746e80
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89d1ba3b
Hi Damien,
(Re: yours of 13-Mar-1997, "Water and Flood.")
DW> However, I'm willing to bet that there the chances are
DW> VERY good that there will never be any evidence for a flood
DW> that is physically impossible.
Then how do you account for the many many enormous
graveyards of fossil animals in most parts of the world
in sedimentary strata laid down rapidly by water?
LA> They would necessarily be about as
LA> much use, as far as teaching anyone anything, as the
LA> Priesthood was in the Dark Ages, when the Roman Church had a
LA> fearful monopoly too!
DW> BULLshit, Applejack. There's no "priesthood" about
DW> science.
They how do you account for a famous evolutionist and
atheist who said;
"Science is the secular religion of today and scientists
are, in a very literal sense, the new priesthood. And it all
began when Ben Franklin flew his kite in a thunderstorm in
the crucial year of 1752."
("The Stars in their Courses", Isaac Asimov, Granada
Publishing, reprinted 1979, p. 185)
DW> Nor does it require any "faith" or "belief", with one
DW> sole exception: the assumption that the universe does not
DW> lie. Beyond that, any fool can figure out the principles of
DW> science, given enough time and no predetermined prejudices.
My my my, you do make some dogmatic statements don't you.
What about the following;
"With the failure of these many efforts science
was left in the somewhat embarrassing position of
having to postulate theories of living origins which it
could not demonstrate."
"After having chided the theologian for his reliance on myth
and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of
having to create a mythology of its own: namely, the assumption
that what, after long effort, could not be proven to take place
today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past."
(Loren Eiseley, Ph.D. (anthropology), "The secret of life"
in The Immense Journey, Random House, New York, 1957,
p.199.)
Makes things look rather different, doesn't it when it is
put like that?
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Water and Flood (c).
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:53:18
EID:ccf7 22746ea0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89d1baa6
Hi Damien,
(Re: yours of 13-Mar-1997, "Water and Flood.")
So such things were being acknowledge by leading
evolutionist authorities over 40 years ago! You sure must
have on hell of a Teacher, who feeds you a line of rubbish!
Perhaps you are so desperate to appear intelligent in front
of him that you just eagerly swallow every word he says and
fail to think for yourself?
Sure as anything if you DARE to doubt his "great wisdom"
you will be regarded as a trouble maker, a thing which very
very few students can handle and it might well result in
your being marked poorly in you grades by him! Between the
two things you are a dead cert to be brainwashed, just like
most other students!
What real education means is that you are presented BOTH
sides of the argument in an unbiased manner. In real life,
with theories of Origins this would mean that any real
educational institution would need to have both evolutionist
and creationist lecturers. However we do have the record of
evolutionists and creationists having held open, public,
scientific debates for a decade and the following surprising
statement is made in a book by a leading evolutionist;
"Creationists travel all over the United States,
visiting college campuses (*) and staging "debates"
with biologists, geologists, and anthropologists. The
creationists nearly always win."
"The audience is frequently loaded with the already
converted and the faithful. And scientists, until recently
have been showing up at the debates ill-prepared for what
awaits them. Thinking the creationists are uneducated,
Bible-thumping clods, they are soon routed by a steady
onslaught of direct attacks on a wide variety of scientific
topics."
"No scientist has an expert's grasp of all the relevant
points of astronomy, physics, chemistry, biology, geology,
and anthropology. Creationists today - at least the majority
of their spokesmen - are highly educated, intelligent
people. Skilled debaters, they have always done their
homework. And they nearly always seem better informed than
their opponents, who are reduced too often to a bewildered
state of incoherence."
(The Monkey Business, Niles Eldredge, 1982, p. 17)
(*) elsewhere some evolutionists try to pretend that the
debates are mostly NOT on College campuses!)
No wonder the evolutionist vigorously opposed State
Legislation that tried to bring in balanced treatment! Just
imagine how utterly embarassing it would be for them to have
something like a repeat of such things in all the schools?
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Helpless Moron (b).
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:54:00
EID:f185 22746ec0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89d1bb00
Hi Ed,
(Re: yours of 13-Mar-1997, "Helpless Moron (2).")
EM> Laurie Appleton to Robert Curry,
LA> You do go on, don't you! Don't you know that it was
LA> scientists who "read their Bibles" that were responsible
LA> for the modern age of science?
EM> Many of whom realized the stupidity of their dogma when
EM> they began to deduce the unmystical nature of Nature.
Naturally you have many examples that you could provide
eh? Strange as it may seem, the new breed of evolutionists
are now admitting that;
"Yet the geological record seemed to provide as
much evidence for cataclysmic as for gradual change.
Therefore in defending gradualism as a nearly universal
tempo, Darwin had to use Lyell's most characteristic
method of argument - he had to reject literal
appearance and common sense for an underlying
"reality."
"(Contrary to popular myths, Darwin and Lyell
were not the heroes of true science, defending
objectivity against the theological fantasies of such
"catastrophists" as Cuvier and Buckland. Catastrophists
were as committed to science as any gradualist; in
fact, they adopted the more "objective" view that one
should believe what one sees and not interpolate
missing bits of a gradual record into a literal tale
of rapid change.)"
"In short Darwin argued that the geologic record
was exceedingly imperfect - a book with few remaining
pages, few lines on each page, and few words on each
line. We do not see slow evolutionary change in the
fossil record because we study only one step in
thousands. Change seems to be abrupt because the
intermediate steps are missing."
(The Panda's Thumb, Stephen Jay Gould, (Pelican Books -
paperback 1987 reprint), p. 150)
The creationists welcome such frank and honest admissions
by the likes of leading evolutionist S.J. Gould and it
should be obvious that Darwin and his followers were the
ones that make a pathetic mess of the facts and the
evidence.
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
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|From: Laurie Appleton
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Absolute Bigotry YES!
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:54:36
EID:96da 22746ec0
MSGID: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89d1bb4a
Hi Ed,
(Re: yours of 13-Mar-1997, "Absolute Bigotry YES!")
EM> Laurie Appleton to Fredric Rice,
LA> How wrong could you get. I am fully in favour of real
LA> science - specially things like Apollo Moon landings etc.
LA> What I cannot stand is quacks and ratbags who try to call
LA> evolution by the revered word science!
EM> Yeah! You tell 'em. Everybody with any sense knows that the
EM> real science is in that there deck of Tarot cards.
EM> You do heed the Tarot, don't you?
Maybe you provide an insight into why you call yourself;
edweird? So lets look at a few facts eh? Darwin wrote;
"Why then is not every geological formation and
every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology
assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduate
organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious
and serious objection which can be urged against the
theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the
extreme imperfection of the geological record."
(Charles Darwin, "On the imperfection of the geological
record", Chapter X, The Origin of Species, J.M.Dent &
Sons Ltd, London, 1971, pp.292-293.)
Then more recently another evolutionist of note wrote;
"Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the
knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded.
We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the
situation hasn't changed much."
"The record of evolution is still surprising jerky and,
ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary
transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean
that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the
fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North
America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result
of more detailed information --- what appeared to be a nice
simple progression when relatively few data were available
now appears to be much more complex and much less
gradualistic."
"So Darwin's problem has not been alleviated in the last
120 years and we still have a record which does show change
but one that can hardly be looked upon as the most
reasonable consequence of natural selection. Also the major
extinctions such as those of the dinosaurs and trilobites
are still very puzzling."
(Dr David M.Raup (Curator of Geology, Field Museum of
Natural History, Chicago), "Conflicts between Darwin and
paleontlogy". Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin,
vol.50(1), January 1979, p.25.)
So, if you can think at all you will see what an utter
farce that Evolution has turned out to be! It seems to
persist today more by "convention" and tradition than
anything to do with science!
Laurie
--- Ezycom V1.48g0 01fd016b
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: yet another math mistake
|Date: 17 Mar 97 20:19:04
EID:3cd5 2271a260
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4b08d580
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Dan Ceppa
JB> If there is zero width, and zero distance between the loci,
JB> they are congruent (and so, by definition, if lacking a
JB> noncoalescence axiom).
No, John, that is NOT always the case. It depends on the particular
distance function. I may have already mentioned the Minkowski
spacetime metric, in which NONcongruent points (events) can have
a distance (interval) between them which is equal to _zero_.
I trust this is clear enough. Feel free to followup if it isn't.
Just please don't make me have to simply REPEAT this as often as I've
had to repeat so many other things; do try to listen and respond, OK?
* SLMR 2.1a *
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 17 Mar 97 20:19:05
EID:fad2 2271a260
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4b08d581
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: David Rice
DR> The eradication of liberty is not worth such a dear price.
RH> WHAT liberty?
That little which remains safe from hysterical fears which would
abandon liberty in favor of some imagined, make believe safety.
RH> Where is it written you have a right to spread a contagious,
RH> incurable fatal illness?
Provided you don't fuck indiscriminantly, share needles, or perform
other high-risk behaviors, you will find that for a "contagious"
disease, there is virtually zero chance of contracting it.
You would do better to prohibit people from driving, because that
results in more fatalities, including FAR more indiscriminate ones.
DR> Measles is very easy to aquire. HIV is damn difficult: one
DR> must work hard, statistically speaking, to aquire the virus
DR> (if HIV is the contributory cause of AIDS).
RH> SO WHAT?
So why are you becoming hysterical about it? I think that's what
he's getting at.
RH> It's fatal and I don't care HOW hard it is to catch.
You don't care about the facts? That does not seem like a very
rational or reasonable attitude. What is the real problem, here?
The highways can be fatal, too; much more likely to kill you.
RH>> Why shouldn't we punish anyone who knowingly passes
RH>> on a fatal illness?
DR> Who said such a person should not be punished?
RH> You did. It was one of the things you were objecting to;
RH> criminal penalties for concealing one's illness.
So by your (ahem) reasoning, a person who conceals a gun is
knowingly shooting people with it.
Come again?
I think you missed a cylinder on this one.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: letter to the editor
|Date: 17 Mar 97 20:19:06
EID:088f 2271a260
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4b08d582
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Why should religious prayers "respect all beliefs" as the
RC> Times recommends the Florida Legislature insist upon? Let's
RC> face it: not all religions do respect other beliefs. If a member
RC> of an intolerant religion is going to pray at the opening of
RC> the Legislature, let him be as offensive as his religion demands.
RC> Anything less would be dishonest.
KW> This is an interesting point, and not one that I've seen made
KW> before. Thank you for the food for thought--how can you honestly
KW> expect the practitioner of a faith that does believe that they
KW> have a monopoly on truth to act or pray in any other manner?
Your comments are appreciated, and yes, you picked up on it right
away. Often, more liberally-minded religious folks want to see
*their* views expressed RATHER THAN more fundamentalist views.
I, however, prefer fairness across the board for everyone alike.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: 7 The List
|Date: 17 Mar 97 20:19:07
EID:0636 2271a260
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4b08d583
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> The ancients also include:
KW> With your permission, I would like to add this post to my webpage.
Certainly, and you may consider it granted for any and all of my public
postings, to be selected at your personal discretion.
As for the home page info you asked about on IRC, here's the URL...
http://home1.gte.net/curry
Enjoy.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: God's terrorists!
|Date: 17 Mar 97 20:19:08
EID:b6a7 2271a260
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4b08d584
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Bryson Hughes
JH> You were put on trial by angels?
BH> Yes Jason I was. It was the most horrifying experience of my life.
DC> Isn't it just great that god sends his angels out to terrorize
DC> people?
RC> Old hat.
RC> Now if Bryson wants to experience _real_ terror, let's see him
RC> deal with being put on trial by Harpies.
KW> Dear, dear Robert. Another slice of pie?
Yes, thank you. I save them for visiting missionaries, so they don't
go to waste. :-)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub: Clones of Mammals.
|Date: 17 Mar 97 20:19:09
EID:0133 2271a260
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4b08d585
TID: GE/2 1.2
LA> What on earth could "cloning" have to do with either of those
LA> "evolutions"? Could any such process ever take place in
LA> "nature" anyway?
Identical twins (and n-tuplets) are nature's clones.
You, OTOH, are one of nature's clowns. Keep dancing the fundy jig,
because the silly creationist antics you practice are funny despite
the sheer stupidity and dogmatism motivating you to perform them.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: real true dumbass xtians
|Date: 17 Mar 97 20:19:10
EID:3e36 2271a260
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4b08d586
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Jelly Boy
KY> All I was saying was that while they are gay, they cannot
KY> become Christian.
MG> We've had a number of gay men here that tell us that they
MG> are as xtian as the next guy. Who decides who is xtian?
MG> You?
Either him or Jim Stall.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 17 Mar 97 20:19:11
EID:c2a1 2271a260
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4b08d587
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: God Dan
JS>> Two things, sir:
GD> That's God Dan to you, shithook.
JS>
You accuse him of using pepper?
Where's the evidence for this heinous blasphemy?
GD> You have all the intelligence of a truck load of fence post holes.
JS> Why can't you just admit I'm right once?
Hmm. Because God Dan doesn't lie just to salve your feelings?
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Old Fart Reminiscences
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:05
EID:5838 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad001
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> I get the feeling that this is a reference my parents wouldn't
RC> even recognize. Do you think I should run it by my grandparents?
RC> Or would my *great* grandparents be more familiar with it, in
RC> your estimation?
MG> Make not fun of the Olde Phartz Klubbe or we will send you
MG> a plague of Aggie Jokes.
Only if you agree to drink the bottle of bourbon I send you in return.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Old Fart Reminiscences
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:06
EID:38ca 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad002
TID: GE/2 1.2
DM> Let's start slow--are you familiar with Candace Bergen? She's on
DM> a sitcom best known for then-vice-president Danny Quayle getting
DM> upset about her character's pregnancy, and she peddles phone
DM> service. Edgar Bergen is her father.
Oh, I do remember my great-grandparents mentioning that, now that
you've so very kindly jogged my memory.
DM> Edgar was the premier radio ventriloquist in the 30s and 40s
So my grandparents may also have listened to some of his shows.
Well, you have cemented your status (to my mind at least) as that
of a genuine Old Fart.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: letter to the editor
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:07
EID:8209 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad003
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Thank you. It was published, along with the following one from
RC> Edward J. McDougall, Sr., of Spring Hill:
DM> My compliments to Edward J. McDougall, Sr. Invite him to
DM> the echo.
I will deliver the invitation in person. He is computer literate,
and connected to the net, so all he needs is an intro to HolySmoke
as you suggest.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ROD SWIFT
|Sub: hateful
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:08
EID:466e 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad004
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Ken Young
RC> Why are you so full of this irrational hate?
RS> There is only one reason for this hate -- his religion.
RS> If his religion was removed, I doubt he would hate gays.
RS> In fact, if he had never been exposed to religion, he
RS> would not hate homosexuality.
I disagree. It is possible to be a bigot without having religious
dogmatism to assist to prop up such bigotry.
Now, it is considerably easier to *maintain* such an attitude of
hate when religious dogmatism is involved, true. If that's what
you mean to say, I have no choice but to agree. Religious faith
gives people practice at just believing things for no good reason.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: dumb religious delusions
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:09
EID:9cbe 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad005
TID: GE/2 1.2
KY>> A gay can get saved, but if they get saved they cannot
KY>> remain gay. They will be changed by the power of God.
RC> Make believe does have its limits, and you have yet to provide
RC> any evidence, any at all, that your god is anything more than
RC> sheer make believe.
RC> Now why is that? Any ideas?
KY> Because no matter what evidence is there, likely you wouldn't
KY> accept it.
Would you consider that a strong argument if used by nazi assholes
who say the same things about jews that YOU say about gays? No matter
what "evidence" these nazis pretend to have, you likely wouldn't accept
it, right? So why is god always against human rights, you asshole?
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: baitboy lunacy
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:10
EID:6c17 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad006
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB>> You're gonna call 0 a _whole_number_???!!!
JB>> Oxymoron on top of oxymoron...
RC> Zero is often described as a whole number, John, especially
RC> in more recent texts.
JB> Meaning what?
Meaning you are full of shit yet again (what a suprise!) when you
call that an oxymoron. How willful is your ignorance, John?
RC> So label one "the zero block" and learn to count the way
RC> Roger has very patiently shown you time and time again.
RC> His way actually works consistently, unlike your hodge-podge
RC> comedy of errors.
JB> Except it doesn't,
Could you please scream "IS NOT!" a little louder? There may be
someone in the back who didn't hear you.
JB> no matter how many times you complain that it does.
It's not a complaint, Moron; it's a correction. But you never learn.
JB> How many blocks between -5 and +5, inclusive of the end blocks?
INCLUSIVELY, that's eleven. However, Moron, that is not the way
Roger has very patiently shown you again and again to count.
Please do try to pay the minimal amount of attention required.
Your stupidity knows no bounds, however, as you repeat the same
errors that at least half a dozen people here have pointed out to
you several times each:
JB> Roger's way, one starts on the NEXT block in line, but ends
JB> on the answer block. My way starts AND ends ON the beginning
JB> and ending blocks.
Indeed.
JB> His is internally inconsistent;
Prove it.
JB> mine's not.
ROFLMAO! What's 6 - 6, John? Have you forgotten so soon?
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: brawley fails math
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:11
EID:4dcf 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad007
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB> Five years before this year was 5 BP?
"Before the Present." Certainly.
JB> Five years after this year is 5 AP?
"After the Present." You might almost be thinking.
JB> How many years between the start of 5BP and the end of 5AP?
JB> Eleven, you say? *Har!*
Note that eleven years is ALWAYS the answer when you measure the
number of years between the _start_ of year X and the _end_ of
year X+10, for ALL values of X (given that years BP are considered
negative and years AP positive).
Do the math, John. Learn the depth of your arrogant idiocy.
RC> Hello? Is anyone home in there? Anyone at all?
JB> No one sitting in a "year zero," that's for sure.
Defining the current year as year zero makes it inescapable, not
to mention logically consistent. Do the math, this time, before
you embarrass yourself further.
Hint: The number of years from any day of a year to the SAME day
of any other year is EXACTLY the difference between the numbers
assigned to the years if they are numbered ..., -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, ...
That's why Roger has been right all along, and you have merely
been farting in the wind.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: liar's lunacy
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:12
EID:1728 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad008
TID: GE/2 1.2
RH>>> Remember, -5 is smaller than -4.
JB>>> Remember the _year_ -5 is not in the _least_ "smaller" than
JB>>> the _year_ minus 4,
RH>> It's the sequence we're discussing, not the length of a year.
JB>> So how do you figure that the "-5 year" is "smaller" than
JB>> the "-4 year?"
RC> What the -FUCK- is your problem, John?
JB> What the -FUCK- is yours?
I have little tolerance for liars? You are misquoting Roger the way
Appleton misquotes biologists. Roger compares the numbers, so you
deceptively ask him how -HE- compares the years? Don't you know the
difference between a number and a year? You should be ashamed.
JB> There is no such thing as years that are "less than" other
JB> years, regardless of _where_ in the sequence they are found.
You dumb fuck, who ever said that one year is smaller than another
year, besides _YOU_?
JB> Straw man? Hardly.
When you make something up out of thin air and then attribute it
to Roger, then yes, that is a straw man.
JB> Shame on you, Bud; we were discussing _years_, obviously,
This inability to accept what Roger plainly wrote, where you insist
on your own faulty misperceptions, looks like the same thing you
did with Berlinski. But it's always their fault and never yours, eh?
JB> That you, Robert, seemingly will defend _anything_, no matter
JB> how idiotic, if _I_ am on the opposing side,
That's gone past embellishment into a plain lie. How Laurie of you.
Clearly, if it's idiocy I wished to defend, I'd be standing right
there with you ON your side. Moreover, on those rare occasions
when an even more obvious idiot stumbles by (Laurie again serves
as an example), then you don't see me defending the greater idiot
against the lesser one, do you?
JB> I can easily ascribe your defense in this case and others, to
JB> simple obstinacy.
By ignoring the facts, John, you can ascribe whatever you like.
JB> However, it has often been said that subracting _any_amount_
JB> from infinity leaves --infinity, and that's what I was
JB> referring to.
Depends on whether you mean a _cadinal_ infinity or an _ordinal_
infinity. They are quite different, with distinct properties.
RC> If it's not too "irrelevent, egotistical and insulting" to you,
RC> citations dealing with infinite ordinal arithmetic can be provided.
JB> Oh, please don't bother. I have plenty of your citations
JB> to look over as it is.
You sure do! And yet you never seem to learn. How come?
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: love to see it
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:13
EID:6a41 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad009
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB>> Are you suggesting that two or more zero-dimension points,
JB>> with _zero_ distance between them, are not coalesced -- are
JB>> not the same point? I'd _love_ to see your reference for
JB>> that....
RC> You never heard of a Minkowski spacetime diagram?
JB> Heard of Minkowski, of course....
More and more, your physics "knowledge" is revealed as superficial.
RC> You didn't even notice that its distance function for points
RC> (or events) implies exactly what you'd so love to see?
JB> I suppose I'd better have closer look at that.
It's all in the distance function, John.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: marbles don't add up?
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:14
EID:c4bf 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad00a
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB>> For reminder, count the number of _marbles_:
JB>> W W W W W (?) B B B B B
JB>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
JB> I don't care if you stick a _grey_ marble up there where I put a
JB> space "(?)"), and call it "the zero marble," or not. It adds
JB> up wrong, you're blowing smoke, and you know it.
ROFL! If you add an eleventh marble to the collection, the number
of marbles just refuses to add up to eleven?
JB> You were and still are both wrong in the case of 'real things'
JB> being 'counted.'
This from a man who can't add up his marbles!
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:15
EID:03dd 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad00b
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Zero is often described as a whole number, John,
JB> Figgers.
JB> Only a mathematician could construct such an _exquisite_
JB> oxymoron. Something with NO parts is a "whole" something, eh?
The number zero is exactly the same with respect to "parts" as
any other whole number. They all have one part, namely, an abstract
definition.
You seem to be confusing zero OF something with the _number_ zero.
JB>> to represent _absence_ of thing(s).
RC> "Zero" does not represent an absence of things. It represents
RC> the *cardinality* of an absence of things. All cardinal
RC> numbers represent a count of things, not the things in and
RC> of themselves.
JB> Semantics.
Accuracy.
JB> To people, zero represents the absence of a thing.
"Something" vs. "nothing." Neither is represented by a number.
Now if you are counting some specific thing, and there is nothing
there, then that IMPLIES there are none ("zero") of the specific
thing there, either. It doesn't work the other way around, though.
You can have none of a specific thing, yet still have something
else entirely. "Nothing" implies "zero cats" but "zero cats" does
not imply "nothing" (there may still be a pack of dogs).
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 3603/210 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ROD SWIFT
|Sub: Driving Mr. Shithead
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:16
EID:fd95 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad00c
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Ken Young
RS> Thanks for fighting the just fight, Robert!
No prob.
Hey, take a peek at http://home1.gte.net/HASP when you get a chance,
and let me know what you think.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: infinitesimals
|Date: 18 Mar 97 18:28:17
EID:ce3b 22729380
MSGID: 1:3603/210 4bbad00d
TID: GE/2 1.2
DC>> A point can only occupy the same space of another point if
DC>> their loci are identical.
JB>> If there is "zero" distance between their loci, they're
JB>> occupying the same space, no?
RC> Not necessarily.
JB> I can't help it: "do not go to the elves for advice, for
JB> they will say both 'no' and 'yes.'"
You really are stupider than I ever imagined if you can't grasp
even the concept of "sometimes, but not always."
Dan Ceppa was correct above, but you were wrong. SOMETIMES when
two points (events) in Minkowski spacetime are separated by zero
distance (interval), their loci are identical -- but not always.
Sometimes the distance is zero between points with distinct loci.
It's all in the distance function. Look it up.
JB>> (Note, Robert, that what Dan's proposing is not the same thing
JB>> as you proposing I use "1" as that distance. Zero ain't "1,"
JB>> obviously.)
JB> ["irrelevant, unnecessary, and insulting text deleted"]
You didn't finish the job; you left your own comments intact.
Though I suppose you could say your remarks satisfy only two of
the three criteria, since no matter what you put into your pathetic
attempts, you couldn't insult your way out of a wet paper bag.
Now, if prizes were awarded for _WHINING_ then you'd be a shoo in.
* SLMR 2.1a *
--- GEcho/2 1.20/Pro
* Origin: The 128th Parallel Seminole,Fl 28.8k 813/397-1339 (1:3603/210)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Cybersitter #1 [1]
|Date: 18 Mar 97 20:56:17
EID:2aaf 2272a700
MSGID: 1:207/212 c6de7314
On (14 Mar 97) DAVID RICE wrote to ALL...
DR> by "routinely" publishing names of sites blocked by Cybersitter.
DR> Milburn claimed that Haselton may have "illegally reversed
DR> engineered" the Cybersitter database. Milburn has threatened
DR> legal action. Haselton, however, found a white knight. After
DR> hearing about Milburn's actions, Mike Godwin, legal counsel for
Problem here. It seems to me that the "database" of blocked sites in a
piece of software like CyberSitter should be easily accessed by the
adult and modified for that family's preferences. Perhaps one family
might wish to block all sites related to suicide because they are
dealing with a suicidal child. Another family might like to block all
sites dealing with some other issue - perhaps they wish to temporarily
control the information a child receives on a medical condition. A
family might want sexually explicit materials blocked but sincerely wish
their child to do research on feminism.
So a piece of software of that type which would require the database to
be reverse engineered to be accessed would be inappropriate in my book.
The original list of blocked sites would be the FIRST thing I would look
at. I would want to click on it, and would probably have the delete key
handy at first.
Don't get me wrong - I agree in principle with the idea of such
software, properly done. While I agree MORE strongly with parental
supervision, parents can't be watching a 12 year old every single
minute. I'm also not one to be terrified that a 12 year old would see a
picture of a naked person of the opposite gender, but I know the sites
with such things on them on the web will be so twisted that I'd simply
rather not.
... "It's just a jump to the left."
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Hobbit Hole (1:207/212)
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: Re: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
|Date: 18 Mar 97 20:29:12
EID:9911 2272a3a0
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 b1ab79d4
REPLY: 1:124/9005 332afba3
TID: GE/32 1.2
SQ> It inevitably becomes a penis size contest. :)
"As for the manhood thing, I'll put mine up against his any day."
- George Bush
... I can't be a priest--- I don't like little boys
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 18 Mar 97 20:34:30
EID:7baf 2272a440
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 ef6e32aa
TID: GE/32 1.2
BB> No more awkward than heterosexual sex, Jelly. Or do you think oral and
BB> anal sex between heterosexuals is unnatural as well?
I just had a thought... if it wasn't for unnatural anal sex, we probably
wouldn't really need nearly as much KY>.
... +Origin: MACARENA! NETWORK: Drunken idiots gyrating for Jesus.
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: Re: MORMON LUNATICS
|Date: 18 Mar 97 20:39:46
EID:c201 2272a4e0
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 03e27e07
TID: GE/32 1.2
FR>> After waiting for their gods to show up they ran out of food and water
FR>> and started drinking their own urin. When Ground Search and Recovery
FR>> pulled these lunatics off the mountain they were wracked with disease
FR>> and all were financially ruined.
BB> Sounds loosely like the movie _The Rapture_. Ever see it?
Is that the movie about the promiscuous telephone operator who finds Jesus?
I
think I've seen it if it is.
... Necrophilia means never having to say . . . well, anything . . .
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Blavatsky?
|Date: 18 Mar 97 20:45:16
EID:77fa 2272a5a0
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 3f9a7001
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332b9970
TID: GE/32 1.2
RS> You're just not trying hard enough. I get two-three a week, on
RS> average :)
Did you archive your first one? I still have the original message saved.
I
need to get out more often.
RS> Oh, he has no concept of Alberta? :) :)
"Canada... isn't that the state up north with the snow and the igloos?"
- Some dumb-ass.
... This echo just gets weirder and weirder. Oh wait. That's me. Sorry.
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: Re: JESUS NEEDED...
|Date: 18 Mar 97 20:47:20
EID:430c 2272a5e0
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 bf5b422c
TID: GE/32 1.2
RH> That doesn't answer the question. I was told that gay/lesbian
RH> couples had children normally, so I asked the above.
What's so abnormal about using a turkey baster? Heterosexuals use them,
too.
Besides, if a gay man really had a problem with a turkey baster, he could
always close his eyes and pretend he was with a man.
... Creationists put the "Duh?" in Fundamentalism.
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Re: Accepting Reality
|Date: 18 Mar 97 20:58:14
EID:a465 2272a740
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 ab0693a2
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 332a9776
TID: GE/32 1.2
KW> " To hell with the value of the life of the unborn child."
Oh, yeah.. you're right there defending the rights of the unborn, but what
about its rights after it's born? What do you think of welfare for poor
mothers?
I have a feeling that you don't give a damn about the "unborn child", so
much
as you want to see women punished for having sex.
... I'd post an anti-abortion saying, but there's no ANSI swastika.
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Re: Accepting Reality
|Date: 18 Mar 97 21:01:36
EID:a465 2272a820
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 0bc3d612
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 332cdc7a
TID: GE/32 1.2
KS>>You have succeeded. You are *very* trying.
KW> It takes "very trying" to have a hope of
KW> light shining thru anywhere in this Conference.
The darkness in this conference comes from the jesus freaks, who think it's
their God-given duty to convert all us nasty heathens - at all costs. But,
at
least it's better that you use up that energy here instead of harrassing
people in the real world.
... I sold my soul to Satan . . . He demanded a refund.
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Re: Bloody Damn Fido . . .
|Date: 18 Mar 97 21:14:18
EID:8df1 2272a9c0
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 6cbbb0df
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 332cdc0a
TID: GE/32 1.2
RS> Folks, the header says it all. FIDO is acting up on me, and
RS> I'm not even sure if
RS> this one will get out or not. I suspect
RS> that something is h
appen
ing to me ssages furt
her dow n the line
RS> . . . I'm n ot gettn g much in, nor much out. Plea
se be
RS> pa
tient with me, and if y ou're a fu
ndy caught in mid-argument
RS> w
ith me: why do you continue to lie?
Got it fine over here. :)
... Accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior? That'd be really selfish!
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 18 Mar 97 21:22:36
EID:ceb4 2272aac0
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 956f81e0
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 332c6ed4
TID: GE/32 1.2
RH>> The flood of Noah is scientifically impossible, and that's a fact.
KY> Please explain further. Why is a world wide flood impossible?
Because God, being all omnipotent and omniscient and perfect and everything,
would have come up with a much less messy way of killing off all the humans
on Earth. He wouldn't have wiped out innocent animals and all the unborn
fetuses and stuff.
Duh!
... If I'm an agent of Satan where's my ten percent??
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Glen Todd
|Sub: Re: The Jesus was homosexual
|Date: 18 Mar 97 23:32:48
EID:4caa 2272bc00
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 32d72bbd
REPLY: 1:128/203@fidonet.org 332c1057
TID: GE/32 1.2
RS>> Ah, I love it. Jesus is a supernatural paper doll!!!
GT> No, a blow-up doll. (Pun intended.)
This just reminded me of something I took in biology last week. The lecture
was about pseudocoelomates, and we took up one in particular called the
water
bear. (a small organism about the size of a rotifer). At mating time, the
female molts, and lays her eggs in the shed covering. Then, the male
copulates with the covering, fertilizing the eggs.
Just thought I'd bring it up.
... God is watching me? What is he, a pervert?
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: George Harper
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 19 Mar 97 22:43:37
EID:a333 2273b560
MSGID: 1:104/447 2796be98
TID: GE 1.1+
DM> George Harper said "CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS" to Roger Hunter,
GH> In a sane and intelligent world, these criminals posing as
GH> doctors of medicine would be hounded by the courts even as Jack
GH> Kevorkian is hounded.
DM> In other words, while you don't shoot abortionists
DM> personally, you don't really mind others manning the
DM> shotguns for you.
No. In other words, I'd like to see abortion outlawed, and
the practitioners put in jail. But, of course, you knew
what I was getting at, but it wasn't sensational enough to
feed your blood-hunger, which is probably why YOU support
abortions in the first place...why don't you just go watch
wrestling or ice hockey on TV and leave discussions to those
of us with enough intellect to conduct them???
... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
* Origin: (1:104/447)
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|From: George Harper
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 19 Mar 97 22:43:38
EID:6970 2273b560
MSGID: 1:104/447 2796be99
TID: GE 1.1+
-> On 16 Mar 97 10:41:58, George Harper got back to Jason Harmon
GH> The Flood: Noah took several HUNDRED years building the Ark, and
GH> everyone ridiculed him...until it rained...
DC> Evidence that any human ever lived over 200 years?
Accounts in the Bible, which I am convinced is infallible. If you
have evidence to the contrary, present it.
GH> The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil: God made it and put it
DC> Evidence as to the location of that garden?
See above
GH> there beca He had created Man with free will. Man haas to choose
DC> Too bad that they didn't know good from bad when they ate from
DC> that tree, isn't it.
Actually, Eve did know that it was forbidden, but seduced Adam
into tasting it. BTW: are you personal friends with the serpent?
No, I guess not...he has better taste...
GH> for himself to follow God. Same applies to worshiping Him
GH> without physical evidence.. man is NOT an automaton. We must be
DC> No, the god you worship is a MPD psychopathic killer.
If He were, how long do you think He would tolerate scum like
you. My evidence to refute your statement is that you are
still allowed to exist.
GH> free to choose... Sodom and Gomorrah: Lot and his family were given
GH> the opportunity to find just 10 "good" people in the
DC> Gee, and all because Lot's wife felt pity on what happened to
DC> those towns and turned around, you god made her into a pillar
DC> of salt.
She wasn't pitying the people - she knew they deserved what they
got...she was just wanting to keep her material possessions...
GH> cities...there weren't even 10! So, He DID kill "just the evil
GH> people".
DC> See above. Lot's wife was killed by your god.
Actually, because she was materialistic, she disobeyed the
order, and got the resultant punishment.
GH> NOW present YOUR arguments for the concept that God *DOES* do
GH> evil... and back them up with common sense arguments at least as
DC> He doesn't have to. Your own comments on your "good" god
DC> does it for him.
Also...some other pimple spoke up in his defense...what's the
matter, Dan, don't you think Jason has the ability or intelligence to
defend himself???
... Documentation - The worst part of programming.
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|From: George Harper
|To: All
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 19 Mar 97 22:43:42
EID:b8c0 2273b560
MSGID: 1:104/447 2796be9a
TID: GE 1.1+
Since I've been reading this echo, I have noticed that the loud-mouths
who are attacking the Christian faith generally post interchangeably.
Not one of you responds to anything directed at you...always waiting for
someone else to jump in and bail you out. I've had enough of your
grade school bully tactics. If none of you has the intelligence and
bravery to face off against an opponent...ON YOUR OWN...the group of you
should just shut up and pay attention to those of us who are teaching
the truth...
I challenge you to select one spokesman, and have him post a topic
to discuss...then one of the Christians reading this echo will step forward
and the two protagonists will conduct the discussion....everyone else just
reads and sits on their hands...no butting in, etc...If you aren't too much
a gaggle of girlish cowards to face up to people convinced of the Truth
of
Christ's message and divinity...
George Harper
Halls Of Tara BBS
1:104/447 - Denver CO
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: FREE WILL
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:12:00
EID:7211 22738980
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
JB> @MSGID: 1:100/435.1 40a614ea
JB> On 15 Mar 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Insufficient information.
JB> (Obviously, "Universe is self-aware" goes in (4).)
JB> It's a comparison, albeit it's flirting with a nonsequitur.
JB> And you're right: there _isn't_ sufficient hardcore "evidence," no,
JB> but given that the first three are accepted as possible, the fourth
(a
JB> repeat of (2)) is a rational conclusion, and there is sufficient
JB> _information_ in the syllogism itself for that conclusion. No, there
Nope, look;
1) brain has feedback loops.
2) brain is self-aware.
3) computer has feedback loops.
4) draw your own conclusions.
You really gonna say "computer is self-aware" ?
JB> ripplings, than a less-than spherical one? (*grin*) IOW, would a
JB> cerebral cortex shaped like a sphere be a better interactor (with the
JB> spherical Universe, via both of their geometric nonlocality) than a
JB> more linear, or a hemispherical cerebral cortex would be?
Are you really saying a pea-brain is needed?
Aren't most brains spherical to a first approximation?
JB> But back to the syllogism:
JB> If B requires A, and D requires C, (and C = A), then if A, B, and C
JB> are 'true,' D is true.
JB> (1):(3)::(2):(4) (As (1) is to (3), (2) is to (4).
Hmmmmmmm.... I guess my above is true then?
I don't THINK so, John...
... "Transporter chief Brawley, beam the landing party to the bridge"
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: HOMOSEXUALS ALSO REPR
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:23:00
EID:d3bd 22738ae0
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Ok, I give up! I was wrong. I thought, based on my own feelings,
RH> that heterosexual relations would be too distasteful.
RS> They *are* distasteful. For me, eating seafood is distasteful,
RS> but that does not mean I have not eaten seafood on occasion.
RS> The motivation has been present in which I have had to practice a
RS> distasteful act out of motivational reasons.
RH> But it seems that gay/lesbian couples do not feel that strongly
RH> about it.
RS> No, you *think* that gay/lesbian couples do not feel strongly
RS> about it.
Bullshit. You _SAID_ they didn't, that gay/lesbian couples were
not uncommon. And I have already heard that gays married to straights
split up because it's too unpleasant.
RS> The fact is that you have failed to understand the issue. I pity
RS> you, really, because you fail to search for reasoning, instead
RS> making blind comments.
Come on, Rod, cut me some slack here. I know no gays personally
and have obviously been misinformed on some issues. If I wasn't
searching for reasoning, I'd be shouting "IS NOT" instead of
asking questions.
RS> You're almost as bad as the fundamentalists in your
I take EXTREME exception to that. Them's fightin' words, pardner!
RS> closed-mindedness on this issue. Maybe I shall offer you one
RS> last chance.
RS> Here is the point I wish you to ponder.
RS> Why do heterosexuals try homosexual sex acts? Don't they find
RS> the acts distasteful?
If we are talking about straight men buttfucking straight or gay
men then I would deny they do so. I know _I_ couldn't, even out of
morbid curiosity. Sure, I could be forced into it, but voluntarily?
Nope.
... Cthulhu in '96. Why vote for the LESSER evil?
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: JESUS NEEDED...
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:26:00
EID:2e98 22738b40
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> If gay men don't mind screwing lesbians, why is it a problem
RS> ---------------------------------
RH> screwing straight women?
RS> I never said such a thing. Your question is based on a fallacy.
Did you not say that gay/lesbian couples are common? Or did you
only mean that they marry for legal reasons but seek sex outside the
marriage?
... MONEY TALKS ... but all mine ever says is GOODBYE!
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:31:00
EID:99cc 22738be0
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Roger Hunter <=-
KY> Because only one is natural and has a practical purpose.
RH> Given overpopulation, the "purpose" is detrimental to the species.
RS> You are correct. You could have also attacked him on his narrow
RS> view and non-pluralistic viewpoint on this issue. Why only ONE
RS> function? Why can't there be more than one function? Why is
RS> only ONE valid?
Because, in his view, procreation is the -only- reason for sex.
Everything else is sinful or perverse (or both).
RH> Bwahahahahahahahaha! Case closed. You're as big a moron as
RH> Appleton, and he holds the record.
RS> HO HO HO HO! :) :) It's great when we can bait an answer like
RS> that out of them, isn't it! :)
They can't avoid it. They're stuck with irrational beliefs and
have to support them....or start thinking. (horrors!)
... The last thing I saw was this Big Blue Wave!
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: FUNDY FROLICS 1/3
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:33:00
EID:6da2 22738c20
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Yeah, yeah, and I don't recall Hitler killing every living thing
RH> on earth, do you?
JS> You specifically said that Hitler didn't perform as severe atrocities
JS> as God. I pointed out differently.
?? I just debunked you, idiot. Can't you read?
RH> I don't recall him ordering his troops to kill
RH> all the animals in a village either, do you?
JS> Oh my. SAve the poor little animals...but kill the helpless unborn.
JS> You tree huggers make me puke!
Save it for supper, then.
... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: CASH ONLY
|Date: 19 Mar 97 18:19:00
EID:496f 22739260
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Robert Curry <=-
JB> Of the internal consistency of, or the all-cases applicability of,
JB> using a block-series with a "zero block" in place, or of the internal
JB> balance of one's start/stop blocks in a block-series with same.
It's perfectly consistent and must be there.
5 black marbles labeled 1 thru 5, a grey one marked 0, 5 white
ones labeled -1 thru -5.
[-5] [-4] [-3] [-2] [-1] [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
Take away 5 black marbles (5 - 5). What's left? 1 grey, 5 white
marbles. The answer is the first remaining marble (0)
[-5] [-4] [-3] [-2] [-1] [0]
See? Or do you prefer [-1]?
... Woman will be the last thing civilized by Man
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: CHEESE WHIZ
|Date: 19 Mar 97 18:21:00
EID:26e0 227392a0
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Roger Hunter <=-
JS> Uh, s'cuse me!? Out of which orifice would one expel fecal material?
In your case? The mouth, obviously.
... Answers: $1, Short: $5, Correct: $25, dumb looks are still free.
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: DRIVING MR. DAISY
|Date: 19 Mar 97 18:38:00
EID:db28 227394c0
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Rod Swift <=-
KY> Well, I guess it all depends on what you view as gay bashing. Do you
KY> really think it is gay bashing for one to say that homosexuality is
KY> immoral?
Well, I guess it all depends on what you view as discrimination. Do
you really think it is discrimination for one to say that blacks are
inferior?
Does this clarify your question for you, idiot?
KY> THat is the question I would like to pose to you? I already see other
KY> things getting accepted more, and I must wonder if one thing that is
KY> usually considered to be deviant, homosexuality, being accepted more,
KY> could be leading the way for other things to get accepted more.
KY> Generally, big changes occur in little steps, and it is a concern of
KY> mine that homosexuality getting accepted, could lead the way to other
KY> things getting accepted, that you would even find sick.
You mean, like Christianity? Perish the thought!
But seriously, NAMBLA hopes so. However, it seems to me to be a
simple matter to separate perversions from acceptable variations.
The key phrase is "consenting adults".
You want to bathe in piss? Fine, if your partner agrees.
You want to rape anyone? NOT fine (no consent).
You want to sodomise children? NOT fine (not adult).
See? No god-myth needed.
... New Mail not found. Start whine-pout sequence? (Y/N)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: JOHN-BOY'S X=1
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:04:00
EID:5c7e 22739880
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> You can if you do it right.
JB> (*sigh*) I probably need to do that anyway. It means separating the
JB> object from its origins, tho', which goes down hard for me....
If you want to talk to mathematicians, you have to speak their
language. The origin sequence is unnecessary to the conversation.
All you need is a list of axioms.
... I tried to drown my problems but they can swim.
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: KEN YOUNG: POSTER CHI
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:13:00
EID:3754 227399a0
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Rod Swift <=-
KY> Some just see homosexuality as a threat to everything that is decent
KY> with how it is promoted. Same goes for pornography. And some, take
More nonsense. Pornography has NEVER been shown to be harmful,
despite the best efforts of several presidents. And homosexuality
is not harmful either.
You just don't LIKE it and you want to make sure no one ELSE
has any access to it.
Does the phrase "MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS" ring any bells with
you?
KY> that to the extreme, and take it upon themselves to try to rid
KY> themselves of the problem. I do not think many intend to hurt anyone
KY> that do commit these violent acts, but that for them, it is another
KY> form of protest, though certainly not the most peaceful kind.
"Oh, sorry, did that shotgun blast hurt?"
KY> WHy I am against gay rights, is because I see it as special rights.
I
KY> am for equality, but I do not see that as being the homosexual agenda.
You gotta be the biggest moron on the echo to hold that position.
You see the right for gays to marry as a special right, one not
enjoyed by others? (Just to name the most obvious one).
Moron.
... File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Clones of Mammals.
|Date: 18 Mar 97 11:41:23
EID:514b 22725d20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 b5b05f88
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89bd8151
On 15 Mar 97, Laurie Appleton wrote:
JB> Waddaya think of actual mammalian clones now in
JB> existence? (Think about that before answering; there's an
JB> _evolution_ problem for you here....
LA> You could have fooled me then. Don't you realise that
My suggestion was that if cloning stops evolution from happening (which
it pretty much does), anti-evolutionists should WELCOME it with open
arms. But no, that doesn't happen with you "God does it" people, eh?
Once again, creationism is revealed as internally inconsistent.
LA> evolution in terms of Amoeba to Man has NEVER been shown to
LA> occur anyway and 'evolution' in terms of what is called
How could one 'prove' to a nonbeliever, that something happened when
there was no one around to observe it? One couldn't. "Amoeba to man"
is a cretinist smokescreen, a misleader of the first water. You fail to
face the consequences of "deep time," preferring instead to hide in the
Bible's warm little theological pond.
LA> exist in a number of different environments even if it has
LA> NOTHING to do with turning monkeys into people!
Still a liar, eh?
You'll never change.
May God forgive you your lies.
Evolution does not now nor has it ever said that man evolved from
"monkeys," nor is it about "turning monkeys into people."
You can't correct even your MOST basic errors of fact, can you?
No, you prefer warm ignorance, Sophistry, and "lying for the Lord."
God'll reward you for your loyalty;
He'll disavow your creationist claptrap.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Science without Religion is lame... --Einstein
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CE
|Date: 18 Mar 97 11:57:01
EID:2d10 22725f20
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 eca5acdb
On 15 Mar 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
JB> If you're on the [block] line, but can _see_ the continuous line, you
JB> know when you've crossed "zero" even though there's no [block]
JB> labelled 'zero' for you to step on.
RH> Why not simplify life, put in the [0] block and be done with it?
Take the FUN out of it? Whyfor? Gives my mind some exercise.
(Besides, none of the points in T-verse have "0" written on 'em.)
JB> painted on it. There's a door-frame with "0" painted on it, but no
JB> paving stone with a "0" painted on _it_.
RH> Why not? You KNOW you need it.
No, I know that IN SOME CASES I need it. T-verse doesn't need it until
T-verse requires translation into math (which does need it). You're
using 0 every time you output or use a coordinate in which one of the
axes has zero translation from the origin, but the points don't have the
label "0" on them to begin with. I also have a strong _philosophical_
prejudice about sticking a 'zero block' into a line of discrete 'real'
objects; it's an artificial addition, for convenience' sake. My example
of counting through the zero block, while maintaining symmetry with
which block one starts and ends on, clearly shows one instance in which
the 'zero block' _doesn't_ work.
JB> One who dares to walk on the stones must remember to make note to the
JB> other guy, who's sitting in thin air off to the side and seeing only
JB> the sides of the door-frames, whenever he passes a door-frame (a
JB> no-width "number").
RH> Good Lord, John. Now we need metaphysics to do a simple math problem.
"Good Lord," Roger, math _begins_ with metaphysics, in the sense that
unlike T-verse's putative origin-sequence realness, nothing 'real'
starts a math system. It's started by an _axiom_; a statement dragged
out of nowhere.
JB> (I could use this one to resolve your issues with the B/W marbles....
JB> I may try that....) (*G*)
RH> Don't bother. It's still wrong.
(*chuckle*) So long as there's an instance in which one, or the other,
method doesn't quite work, there's a question: _why_ doesn't it work?
That provides interesting games to play with people who think the thing
_always_ works, but who, like Fundies, deny the existence of the
counterexample.
In the last analysis, it's a matter of conflict between a math system
_with_ a 'zero block' and one without one. I choose to explore the
differences, is all.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... It's its. Its isn't it's.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: GEOMETRY
|Date: 18 Mar 97 12:07:57
EID:d224 227260e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 1afebae7
On 15 Mar 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
JB> tetrahedron(4), hexahedron(6),
RH> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
RH> How about this one?
JB> Hexahedron? Six sides? Two tetrahedra base-to-base? (IOW, it's ok;
JB> do you mean it's not one of the Platonic solids? I don't remember
JB> which are and which aren't.)
RH> No, I meant that it should be cube, but you're right; two Tetras
RH> base-to-base also have 6 sides.
Yes, but after I wrote that, I realized it was not a "fundamental"
Platonic solid. The others cannot be made out of preceding regular
forms; the base-to-base tetrahedra hexahedron can.
(Note the subtle reappearance of our old friend the icosahedron here;
it cannot be made from regular tetrahedra....)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Gravity...always gets me down....
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: SECURE DIGITAL CONFER
|Date: 18 Mar 97 12:10:27
EID:833d 22726140
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 1e6046cf
On 15 Mar 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
JB> management to navigating the hard disk.) Two keystrokes per file.
I
RH> I can do it in 1. In Stereo Shell, the space bar flags a file. One
RH> all are flagged, you can move, delete, copy , etc all at once.
"Cweep.exe" (or "sweep.exe") does that. I don't use it much, since even
in a subdir with forty files to erase, two-keying them out one at a time
is still faster than getting out, calling Cweep, recalling its
operation, marking all, deleting all, then getting out and back into
LIST.
JB> CP/M operating system.
RH> Gee John, I'm not THAT old! I got into computers backward. I started
RH> on mainframes with FORTRAN, then moved into PCs in '84 when the QL
RH> came out. So I missed CP/M entirely.
Ah. (Neither am I.) My CP/M was with a Franklin Ace (AppleII clone),
which had a language card that'd boot it into CP/M, plus allow Pascal
programming and Wordstar use. (I started with an AppleII in 1977 or
so.)
JB> Advice: go _fishing_. That's never boring, and it's pretty cheap as
JB> well.
RH> Fishing is the ultimate in boring, but at least the fish here don't
RH> bother me by biting the hook.
(Hmmm.. fishing is boring? How sad for you.... (*grin*))
JB> reading Peter Lynch taught me most strongly was that if one buys
JB> _stocks_, one is a gambler or a fool. One must buy _companies_.
RH> I guess I'm a gambler, then. I'm willing to take risks to get
RH> rapid growth....which never seems to happen.
So'm I, but mine are "calculated" risks --on companies, not on stocks I
whose company's businesses I know nothing about.
For example: (WARNING! THIS IS NOT A BUY RECOMMENDATION!)
There's a horribly overpriced company called "Affymetrix" (AFFX), with
proprietary new DNA-reading technology. I know what that is, how it
works, and why it'll be ragingly successful, but I won't buy it because
it's too high-priced, and is a "venture stock" (no actual sales figures
yet). IF, however, the price was down in the 8-10$ range, like Neurex
(NXCO) used to be, I'd be snapping it up like crablegs. It's a risk,
but since I have a _good_ grasp of what the product is and will do, it's
not nearly the kind of risk one sees most people taking, buying stock on
the wing-and-a-prayer advice of uncle Henry's barber....
JB> (Which, after all, is exactly what you're really doing when you buy
a
JB> stock.) Your _companies_ succeed or fail over time; their
JB> _stock_prices_ flip-flop all over the place in the short run. You
RH> Because stock markets are irrational. They respond to rumors,
RH> guesses and Greenspan burps.
Yeppers. But they are long-term risers. I again suggest Peter Lynch's
book _Beating_the_Street_.
JB> cannot 'afford' to flip in and out of stocks every time the market
JB> hiccups. (I should know: 1) I resolved to adhere to that philosophy,
JB> 2) I forgot it in June of '96. If I hadn't gotten 'scared' out of
my
JB> best stocks then, I'd be about $80,000 better off than I am now. I
JB> keep that immense and scary mistake in mind whenever I decide it's
JB> time to "churn the portfolio.")
RH> Good Lord, you _lost_ more than I _have_ total. My wife would kill
RH> me if that happened.
(Note I didn't say I _lost_ that; I said I'd be that much better off now
than I am.)
It's not representative: It was a HUGE gain, Nov.95-->May.96, from a few
darned good 'guesses' (my calculated risks), meaning it was a rather
LARGE fraction of my total holdings. Moreover, it was a _compound_
mistake: not only did I not have stop-loss orders in place, but also
when I got back from fishing and saw the destruction, I sold out low to
preserve what little profits I still had. The stocks went right back up
after that, so that $80,000 was (as I said) what I _would_have_had_, had
I not a) failed to have stop-losses backing up the stocks AND b) sold
out at the bottom.
It takes guts, and I knew that from Peter Lynch's book, where he says
that more people lose at stocks because they get "scared out of the
market" than from any other cause. I got scared out of the market in
June of 1996. That will NOT happen again.
However, since the loss was in the same stocks that had gained so much,
I actually LOST nothing, and in fact still had a tiny profit that year.
(If in Jan., one has $10, and in May, one has $20, then by Jun., one
loses $9, one still _made_ $1 for the year. I don't look at money I
make as money I can "lose" while I'm within the same year. That is, if
I walk into a casino with $10, run it up to $5,000, lose $4,989, and
then walk out of the casino, I haven't "LOST" any money at all; I have
GAINED some--a dollar, in this case.)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Not all questions worth asking have answers...
--- PPoint 2.00
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: counting on a number line
|Date: 18 Mar 97 12:39:24
EID:9e0d 227264e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 39789eba
REPLY: 1:3603/210 48a8bd3e
On 14 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> In my experience playing math games with dozens of children,
RC> none have ever had any trouble with this very intuitive
RC> notion, John. Think of the number blocks being drawn on a
RC> sidewalk in chalk, with kids standing in any integer's box,
RC> then counting their steps to any other box. It works every
RC> time.
JB> I've merely been arguing that it is less intuitive,
........
JB> inherently inconsistent,
RC> BULLSHIT.
RC> I challenge you to support that assertion or else retract it.
Either of these methods of counting is asymmetrical (internally
inconsistent):
Problem: x = -3 + 6
Blocks: (*=counting entity's start-point; %=same, end-point.)
5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5
* 1 2 3 4 5 6
%
5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5
1 2 3 4 5 6 %
*
In the first case, the counter does not start counting with the block
he's on, BUT he does END counting on the block he's on for the answer.
In the second case, the counter _does_ start counting with the block
he's on, BUT must use the block one block _beyond_ the one he finishes
on as the answer.
That is, _either_way_, the counter is being inconsistent, starting with
the NEXT block but ending ON a (the answer) block, --OR-- starting ON a
block but not ending ON a (the answer) block.
JB> _unnecessary_ in some cases,
RC> As opposed to what? Some sort of math game that is "necessary?"
Without that zero block, the above counter is consistent (symmetrical in
his behaviour), since he both starts _and_ends_ ON a block, and the
answer is correct.
(Unnecessary also in unlabelled geometric constructs, in which points
are not "zeroes.")
JB> and productive of _wrong_answers_ in others.
RC> Only because you stupidly and stubbornly refused to follow the very
RC> simple and intuitive (for most people!) instructions that patient
RC> people like Roger Hunter outlined for you.
"Only because I disagree with Roger's method?" (Oh. 'Scuse me; that
was _you_ talking....)
Counting a line of blocks across a 'zero block' and getting the right
answer is NOT "intuitive"; it has to be _taught_ against intuitivity.
JB> (I suspect you're talkin' through yer hat, but since I'm not
JB> familiar with the specific game you have in mind, I have to
JB> give you the benefit of the doubt.)
RC> You may "suspect" all you like. I _know_ you're full of shit, John.
Suuuuuure you do.
Have a _nice_ day, Robert.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: a clue
|Date: 18 Mar 97 12:55:37
EID:8d0c 227266e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 bac36804
REPLY: 1:3603/210 48a8bd40
On 14 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> JB>> your "space of one dimension" definition of a "point."
RC> Ahem. Zero dimensional. And it's hardly "my" definition.
JB> Excuse me. I stand corrected. It's still the best one yet,
JB> but it does not imply noncoalescence, unfortunately.
RC> If you want to say that two points do not occupy the same location,
RC> there is a very easy way to specify that so that no one can
RC> possibly fault your mathematical terminology. Not does it require
RC> any embedding space (what you keep calling a "background space").
RC> Interested?
You wanna go fishing? Yes? No? In case of the latter, don't dangle
worms in front of my eyes; just speak, or do not.
Enlightened self-interest might suggest you tell me; otherwise there'll
just be more yakkety-yak from me 'till I get it (from you or another).
RC> If you can keep your temper, maybe I'll not play this out too long.
I have YET to lose my temper. You mistake textual games for emotional
effect.
RC> Actually, it suggests that if you want results, I'm the best
RC> person to provide them for you. After all, you did remark
RC> that no one else has even come close.
JB> If I want results, WHY on earth would I prefer someone from
JB> whom getting results is worse than pulling teeth?
RC> Because, as you said, no one else gives you any results as close
RC> to what you want. Isn't it worth a little trouble? Or do you also
RC> avoid the dentist because you are afraid of what you might have
RC> to go through?
Define "trouble." If you mean _time_, then no, it's not worth my time
to wait patiently on your pleasure, forever indulging your pedantry.
RC> Then again, maybe you bite your dentist, too. :-)
I'd bite 'im if he hurt me first....
RC> And blame it all on him "biting" you first, or perhaps Berlinski.
Q.E.D.
Now, would you like to terminate this by giving me what you think is the
resolution to my by-now well-understood difficulty with the math
terminology?
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Its is its possession. It's is it is. Is its use clear? It's clear!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: blunder redux
|Date: 18 Mar 97 13:03:02
EID:86ca 22726860
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d3cc382f
REPLY: 1:3603/210 48a8bd41
On 14 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
JB> I still think of infinitesimals as inherently DISCRETE, Robert.
RC> You might just as well still think that "Scheisse" is the German
RC> word for inherently sweet smelling. Either way, you come up full
RC> of shit.
The geometric infinitesimals--the minimum-thingnesse short of zero that
are Tetrahedraverse points ("pionts"), are DISCRETE. There is nothing
lesser-than, and anthing greater-than is constructed from them as units.
JB> For example, your phrasing "a space of no dimension"
RC> I have never in my entire life used such a phrase.
Excuse. "A space of zero dimension."
I tend to forget you're a Priest of Zero.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Imagination is more important than knowledge."--Einstein
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: complaints
|Date: 18 Mar 97 13:06:57
EID:717c 227268c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 2e6fc652
REPLY: 1:3603/210 48a8bd42
On 14 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RC> JB>> I'm still having trouble getting a clear definition of these
RC> JB>> two types of infinite.
RC> A denumerable (or "countable") infinite number is equal to the
RC> number of integers.
RC> A nondenumerable (or "uncountable) infinite number is any that
RC> is larger than the above.
JB> Now, how do we differentiate the meaning of the first statement,
JB> from the meaning of the second,
RC> We do it by understanding what it means to say that some number is
RC> larger than another.
RC> Are you having a problem understanding what it means?
Not any more.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: GEOMETRY
|Date: 18 Mar 97 13:07:35
EID:dae4 227268e0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e685beae
REPLY: 1:3603/210 49a4dff7
On 15 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
RH> do you mean it's not one of the Platonic solids? I don't
RH> remember which are and which aren't.)
RC> 1. regular tetrahedron
RC> 2. regular hexahedron (more commonly just called a cube)
RC> 3. regular octohedron
RC> 4. regular dodecahedon
RC> 5. regular icosahedron
RC> See Coexter's _Regular Polytopes_ for more information.
Thank you.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: complaints [1]
|Date: 18 Mar 97 13:09:11
EID:6258 22726920
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 c8c6ee34
On 16 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > (a)
CH> RC>> A denumerable (or "countable") infinite number is equal to the
CH> RC>> number of integers.
CH> > (b)
CH> RC>> A nondenumerable (or "uncountable) infinite number is any that
CH> RC>> is larger than the above.
CH> > (separating elucidation from definition):
CH> RC>> A denumerable infinity is the smallest
CH> RC>> cardinal infinite number -- the others are all larger.
CH> > All right, let's see how "simple" this is:
CH> > By paragraph (a), we get the idea that the integers extend into
CH> > infinity, thus they are "countable," while at the same time
CH> being > in practice not "countable" (no one, given anything less
CH> than an
CH> > infinite amount of time, could "count" them in a common-sense
CH> way).
CH> No. "Countable" is simply a mathematical term for the "density" of
CH> infinity. The scope of integers is such that one can match them on a
Thank you for the high-quality and polite explanation. I now see what
is meant. There is some conterinutitivity in here that isn't settling
well, but it has little to do with the explanation offered.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 18 Mar 97 13:11:17
EID:404d 22726960
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 a69bc9a3
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 e67eb34d
On 16 Mar 97, Marilyn Burge wrote:
MB> On (09 Mar 97) ROBERT CURRY babbled to LYNDA BUSTILLOZ...
JB> Zero is either a place-holder ('nothing here', as in "1024"),
RC> That would be the numeral "0" (like the other numerals, a symbol).
MB> WhatEVER is Brawley talking about!!?? Zero IS a number in the
MB> above example. It tells us there are zero hundreds in the
MB> value being described!
MB> Brawley's an idiot!
Doubtful....
Zero's a place-holder. One would find it hard to write any multiple-
digit number without a symbol meaning "there are no [insert decimal
magnitude]'s here." Likewise in any other-base number system. However,
it is the only symbol that represents _absence_of_, rather than presence
of. It is, in that sense, a unique symbol, unlike any of the other
digits (in any base system, binary, trinary, octal, hexadecimal, etc.,
to arbitrarily large bases).
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 18 Mar 97 13:31:45
EID:0452 22726be0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 44b0c6c1
On 17 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > On 13 Mar 97, ROBERT CURRY wrote:
CH> JB>> The only way you can do that is to have either _two_ "year
CH> JB>> zeros" (one in each direction), or to have NO "year zero"
CH> JB>> (_none_ in either direction).
CH> RC>> Quite unimaginative, John. Consider the current year as Year
CH> Zero. RC>> Then all the other calendar years are numbered by counting
CH> how many RC>> years they were before the present (BP) or will be
CH> after the present RC>> (AP). Is that simple enough for you?
CH> > Five years before this year was 5 BP? Five years after this
CH> year is 5 > AP? How many years between the start of 5BP and the
CH> end of 5AP?
CH> > Eleven, you say? *Har!*
CH> Yes. Five before, current, five after. 5+1+5 = 11. Fencepost problem.
"Fencepost problem?" Clarify, please? I've never seen that phrase
before.
Now, granted that we have eleven years, on which side of the dividing-
line between positive and negative years, is the "zero year" located?
Do you not see that this is a problem? It seems to depend on which way
you're facing, doesn't it? And if both ways are equivalent, then either
there needs to be two 'zero years,' you need to switch your viewpoint
across a whole year (you can't turn around 'in place'), or that "zero
year" is an anomaly.
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: John Brawley
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 18 Mar 97 13:36:47
EID:0452 22726c80
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 da3af8d8
On 17 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
CH> > Figgers.
CH> > Only a mathematician could construct such an _exquisite_
CH> oxymoron. > Something with NO parts is a "whole" something, eh?
CH> (*GUFFAW!*)
CH> > Tell me: what's half of zero? (*snicker*)
CH> Zero.
Why isn't "half of zero" merely a _meaningless_ concept? If zero is the
absolute minimum--the limit-which-is-reached-- then half of it should be
totally without cognitive resonance....
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 18 Mar 97 13:40:06
EID:0f67 22726d00
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 045371f4
On 17 Mar 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Robert Curry <=-
JB> Except it doesn't, no matter how many times you complain that it does.
JB> How many blocks between -5 and +5, inclusive of the end blocks?
JB> [-5][-4][-3][-2][-1][0][+1][+2][+3][+4][+5]
JB> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
JB> Eleven? (Wrong-O.)
JB> Works _without_ a 'zero block,' not _with_ a zero block.
JB> You can bitch 'till doomsday; it won't change this fact.
RH> Wrong-O my ass. There ARE 11, you just counted them above.
And that's wrong in some cases. One such: how many marbles are there
from -5 to -1, inclusive of the ends? (5) How many from +1 to +5,
inclusive? (5) What's 5+5? (10) How many marbles do you count when
you lay them all down in a line and count from one end to the other?
(10) Now stick your zero marble in the line. How many now? (?!?) (11)
You dispute this?
"(*mumblegrumble*)"
The problem seems to arise only when crossing that 'zero marble.'
JB> Roger's way (the accepted way, one presumes) is arbitrarily
JB> consistent, as is mine. Roger's way, one starts on the NEXT block
in
JB> line, but ends ON the answer block. My way starts AND ends ON the
RH> Do NOT! I start on the first block and end on the answer. You end up
RH> in midair somewhere. Show us 5 - 5, your way. In that case you have
RH> to float, whereas -I- have a block to stand on.
I merely now submit (again) that there are special cases in which
_neither_ system works perfectly. I don't mind floating, to accommodate
the anomaly; do you mind being asymmetrical in counting, your way?
-3 + 6 =
Case 'a', in which start-OFF, end=ON.
(You do not start by counting the block you're ON,
but you count the block you end ON)
5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5
* 1 2 3 4 5 6
--OR--
Case 'b', in which start=ON, end=OFF.
(You DO count the block you start ON,
but you must step one-beyond the block you end ON)
5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5
1 2 3 4 5 6 *
"My" way:
5 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 5
1 2 3 4 5 6
*---------*
I start by counting the marble I'm ON, __and__ I end ON the block that
is the answer. The counterexample, in which this doesn't _exactly_ work
like 'real blocks' ( x minus itself) is not a fatal blow; it is an
_ecxeption_, and a minor one at that. Moreover, in this system, 'x -
itself' _shouldn't_ work to get "zero", since zero does not exist in
this system in the first place. You DO, however, get "none," which is
the correct answer, even if I have to float above the last block I
removed. I am still symmetrical thereby. This one counter is not
sufficiently probalematical, imho, when your way _also_ has the built-in
asymmetry above-noted. (*grin*)
JB> beginning and ending blocks. His is internally inconsistent; mine's
JB> not. His has exceptions; so does mine. Neither method is flawless.
RH> Wrong. I have no exceptions or inconsistencies.
Maybe you don't; your system does. (*grin*)
It's asymmetrical. Worse, its _asymmetry_ is asymmetrical: it looks
different when counting backwards than when counting forwards:
case 'a' = -3 + 6
case 'b' = 3 - 6
5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5
'a' * 1 2 3 4 5 6
'b' 6 5 4 3 2 1 *
(*grin*)
Mine:
5 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 5
'a' 1 2 3 4 5 6
'b' 6 5 4 3 2 1
*---------*
(*ebgrin*)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 18 Mar 97 14:05:11
EID:0f67 227270a0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d59dd45b
On 17 Mar 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Robert Curry <=-
RC> Roger never said that one year is smaller than another. He stated
RC> correctly that one number is smaller than the other. The switcheroo
RC> to a strawman was entirely your own doing, because YOU are the one
RC> who substituted years for numbers. Shame on you.
JB> Shame on you, Bud; we were discussing _years_, obviously, so in
JB> context Roger made a ludicrous statement. That you, Robert, seemingly
RH> Did NOT! I said -5 is smaller than -4.
....And I said it wasn't. -5 is bigger than -4.
_-3_ is smaller than -4, and when you get down to -1, -.5 is smaller.
The -5 _year_ is further away from 0 than -4 is, yes. It's not
"smaller," but even without the year-blocks, the sequence _ascends_ in
both directions away from zero.
JB> You and Roger are trying to claim an increasing series in one
JB> direction is different from its mirror image. "Less than one" stops
JB> cold at "zero." Minus numbers are merely a reversal of sign. -5 is
JB> _more_ negativeness than -4, just as +5 is more positiveness than +4.
RH> John, "more negative" is the same as "less positive". 0 is smaller
RH> than 1, -1 is smaller than 0 and -2 is smaller than -1. By the same
RH> logic, -1 is larger than -2, 0 is larger than -1 and 1 is larger
RH> than 0.
Sorry, that looks like nonsense. Two increments of something is
_larger_ than one increment, be that thing negative or positive. Two
marbles labelled "-1" and "-2" is two marbles, not less than two
marbles. Two degrees below zero is two whole degrees, just as two
degrees above zero is. One is not "smaller" than the other.
JB> "Smaller" or "less than" appear in that range between _either_
JB> direction's infinity, and that mythical "zero" of yours.
RH> Nonsense. Either term can go from +infinity to -infinity. There is
RH> no break at zero.
In the sense that on a line from -ģ to +ģ, one can stick the "zero"
anywhere one wants, yeah.... But it's a no-width dividing-line, a
"Dedekind cut," not a width-possessing thingie.
(I sure hope I used that man's name right....)
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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SEEN-BY: 3632/21 3651/9 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 100/435 525 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: John Brawley
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 18 Mar 97 14:14:23
EID:0f67 227271c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 12e8c267
On 17 Mar 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Robert Curry <=-
RC> Zero is often described as a whole number, John, especially in more
RC> recent texts.
JB> Figgers.
JB> Only a mathematician could construct such an _exquisite_ oxymoron.
JB> Something with NO parts is a "whole" something, eh? (*GUFFAW!*)
JB> Tell me: what's half of zero? (*snicker*)
RH> If we're discussing integers, you can't take half of any of them.
I'll buy that....
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
SEEN-BY: 732/10 2401/0 2442/0 3603/420 3606/10 3612/41 3615/50 3619/25
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|From: John Brawley
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: stupidity multiplied
|Date: 18 Mar 97 14:14:54
EID:9d56 227271c0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 d9d13c35
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 332c98d0
On 17 Mar 97, David Worrell wrote:
DW> DW>> Could it be because that is the *first* marble? The had the
DW> "zero DW>> marble" before they picked any up.
JB> They "had the 'zero marble'" _before_they_picked_any_up_???!!!
JB> (*GUF-FAW!!*)
DW> I'm glad you find that as amusing as we find the fact that you are the
DW> proud possessor of the zero neuron.
Thank you.
Oxymorons and nonsequiturs are always welcome, especially obvious ones.
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SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
SEEN-BY: 270/101 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603
SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:32
EID:b6ad 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae924
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
BB>On 3 Mar 97 06:04pm, KEN YOUNG wrote to DAVE HAMILTON:
BB> KY> unnatural, and even the positions at least with male homosexual
sex,
BB> KY> must be kind of awkward. Besides, you seem to think that gays are
BB>No more awkward than heterosexual sex, Jelly. Or do you think oral and
anal
BB>sex between heterosexuals is unnatural as well?
He wouldn't if he could get some...
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž God not found. Deleting OMNI.*
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Baby in Critical Conditi
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:35
EID:6280 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae92e
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KW>JS>The Apostle Paul received his gospel directly from Christ.
KW>KS>Oh? When and where?
KW> The answer is not hard to find. Read the first two chapters
KW> of Galatians. Read Acts Chapter 9. Follow the cross-references
Bla, bla...nothing in these or anything else in your holey book
indicates he ever met JC.
You're debunked.
As usual.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž I haven't laughed so hard since I puked on a fundy.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: MY BEAR AND COMPUTERS
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:35
EID:963b 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae92f
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
RH> RH>That's all he did? Impossible. He may have reformatted an IDE drive
RH> RH>(low-level) which makes it useless...
RH> KS> Naw. I do it all the time.
RH>Low level? How?
You can do it with debug or any number of utils that you can get from
Seagate, Conner, WD, etc.
RH> RH>Not having Norton, I can't say for sure, but normally software
RH> RH>cannot harm hardware.
RH> KS> I wrote a little program you can try....if you promise not to
RH> KS> bill me for your monitor...
RH>I've heard of that but never seen it. How does it work?
Real well.
It fries the horizontal circuits.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:35
EID:c283 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae930
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS>JS> You have a god. The Bible says those who don't worship God, worship
the
JS>JS> god of this world: Satan.
JS> KS> An obvious lie. I do not 'worship' any*one* or any*thing*. You
are
JS> KS> full of shit as usual.
JS>s'cuse me!? Are you Rod Swift???? (same rule applies, however. As Bob
JS>Dylan once so aptly put it, 'it might be the devil or it might be the
JS>Lord, but you gotta serve somebody')
Horseshit. I do indeed 'serve' certain people (my customers). Worship?
No fucking way.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:35
EID:491b 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae931
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS>JS> RS> sexual orientation are not *special rights*. Heterosexuals would
JS>JS> RS> be as equally able to claim discrimination if fired for being
JS>JS> RS> straight.
JS>JS> You can't fire someone for being gay.
JS> KS> You are a fucking liar.
JS>What country do you live in? There _are_ laws against discrimination,
JS>you know.
You are a moron.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Listen: this is real bizarre: 'datum' is and 'data' are.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: the promise keepers 1/
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:35
EID:a1cc 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae932
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> Anal Roberts' house--30 rooms, 44,000 square feet. Go down the
street
JS> KS> half a mile and you may see him golfing at Southern Hills Country
Club
JS> KS> which costs $30,000 a year membership.
JS>So tell me of the connection between PK and the right honorable Oral
JS>Roberts?
They all claim to be christians. I rest my case.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Born again? No, I don't think my mom would appreciate it.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:35
EID:64a4 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae933
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> JS>Where did I say 'bitch'?
JS> KS> You tried to, above...except you weren't smart enough to spell it.
JS>Nah. I can spell 'bitch' if I want to.
Or be one.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Fundy brains for rent. Never used. Call 555-2132
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You *didn't* answer this
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:35
EID:a8af 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae934
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> All I know is what they spew. They claim to be Xians. Who am I
to
JS> KS> disagree?
JS>Very simple: go to the source (the Bible) and compare.
I would prefer something a bit less mythical.
JS>(Mat 7:19 NIV) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down
and
JS>thrown into the fire.
Many of your fundy cohorts think this is alluding to people. It's
a convenient excuse to kill them. But it's just bullshit.
JS>See? It is not that hard, once you have been enlightened by the Word
of
JS>God.
If I thought that were about to happen I would put a bullet in my
brain.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Pat is a Loose Buchanan.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Lon Mabon
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:35
EID:4e28 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae935
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS>JS> JS> The correct question was 'why _did_ I use the name Lon S. Mabon.
JS>JS> JS> (there is no such person).
JS> KS> Well, you are clearly, as usual, lying.
JS>You not even making sense. There is no such person.
Yes, there is. You just don't know about him. So...you're full of
shit, as usual.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Fundys knee-deep in gasoline tossing matches at infidels.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:36
EID:3bf0 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae936
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> JS>Ezekiel 18 talks about a child being punished for particular
JS> KS> crimes/sins JS>committed by his father, not original sin.
JS> KS> It doesn't matter, it's just as fucking disgusting and sick.
JS>What is disgusting and sick about the person who committed the crime
JS>being judged for the crime? YOu want to be held accountable for
JS>something your father might have done?
Of course not, you fucking moron. But I understand that YOU do, being
a braindead fundy asshole.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž God not found. Deleting OMNI.*
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: raising children for hell
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:36
EID:f2fa 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae937
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> But you kind of hope so, don't you?
JS> Not at all.
JS> KS> I really pity you.
JS> What ever gets you through the night...
Sleep works just fine.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž I used to get stiff in the joints so I quit going to them
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:36
EID:d934 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae938
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> thenwhen JS>he went ahead and did it anyway and you did not do what
JS> KS> you said you JS>would do, what sort of respect would you recieve?
JS> KS> If the threat was of torture or eternal damnation,
JS> No threat. Promise.
Makes no difference. If your deity *did* actually exist, he's been
exposed as a misanthropic asshole. Fuck him.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Race car spelled backwards is race car.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:36
EID:247f 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae93e
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KW>KW>Nope. I don't believe any babies burn in hell, period. I
KW>KS>You then have a serious theological schism with your fundy
KW>KS>compatriot, Staaled Brain...
KW> I sure do.
How nice. He wants babies to burn and you want 12 year olds who have
abortions to be prosecuted and executed. It's hard to know which of
you bastards is the more despicable.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž I haven't laughed so hard since I puked on a fundy.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:37
EID:379f 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae93f
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KW>KW>HOMOS in heaven. Why? Because being a HOMO (whether
KW>KW>one is born one or one by choice) does not send
KW>KW>one to heaven or hell. It is living a lifestyle
KW>KW>where one regularly engages in such acts without
KW>KS>How about 'occasionally' engaging...?
KW> Nope. We are talking about those who regularly
KW> engage in the act.
Fuck you. And fuck your religion, your mother, and your daughter.
And your dog.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:37
EID:c0fa 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae940
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KW>KS>That should give you a clue as to what to do about your brain
KW>KS>numbness problem.
KW> Nope. That one is purely your problem, not mine. With that
KW> kind of problem you have your parents to blame, not some
KW> ailment you brought on yourself.
Half of my parents are dead. I hope your mother isn't; I'd like
her to blow me again.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:37
EID:5626 22737960
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162ae941
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
DC>-> On 14 Mar 97 02:59:26, Karl Schneider got back to Ken Young
DC> KY>find such a thing very sick indeed. But, a majority of molesters
do
DC>appear t
DC> KY>be gay.
DC> KS> You are a liar.
DC>And, Kenny, your reply to Karl is??????
He will likely quote more bible bullshit...
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Listen: this is real bizarre: 'datum' is and 'data' are.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: More Christian nuts
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:37
EID:d9d3 22737960
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SQ> RS> The nudity displayed in Schindler's List was certainly not
SQ> RS> pornographic, but realism. You'd have to be pretty sick to get
SQ> RS> turned on by such a display of nudity as a pornographic item.
SQ>Remember, though: We're dealing with people who equate their "Satan"
with
SQ>human genitalia.
'cause some of 'em have a devil of a time getting it up...
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Born again? No, I don't think my mom would appreciate it.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: clones
|Date: 19 Mar 97 15:11:37
EID:e479 22737960
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JH> KS> Not that they need more people, but being almost 100%
JH> KS> heterogeneous anyway they probably have less of an 'ethical
JH> KS> problem' with it.
JH> In this case I suspect that it will be a case of them simply
JH> being very good at finding the economically exploitable aspects
JH> of something new.
Something at which they excel.
JH> guess just what something like this can grow into. Our own guesses
JH> will be as off the mark as those 1950's Popular Mechanics
JH> predictions about what the 1990's would be like (we're supposed to
JH> be popping food pills and flying around in bubble cars by now).
Exactly. As Heinlein (IIRC) coined the truism, "Any sufficiently
advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
JH> So where can cloneing technology take us? Hellifiknow. Maybe
JH> tank grown eyes for the blind, maybe factory made feet for
JH> people who can't dance... I just don't know. But whatever
JH> comes of this, I suspect we will be followers, and not leaders.
Or they can give the rejected brains and give 'em to fundies...it'd
be an improvement...
JH> So, as a medical technology, it's benefits may be limited to the
JH> elite few who can afford them.
And that is the scariest part.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Pat is a Loose Buchanan.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Mary Smith
|Sub: Motion Passed
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:52
EID:9b90 22739b80
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MS>HOW CAN YOU BOTH USE THE LORDS NAME IN VEIN?
Well Goddammit, who the fuck asked YOU?
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:52
EID:07f8 22739b80
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162b2574
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> SA> What I can't figure out is how one is supposed to do a synopsis
JS> SA> on a verb. Perhaps you could explain this to me? Thanks!
JS>If I recall, conjugation refers to the form of the verb in regards to
JS>first, second or third person (I, you he/she/it) and synopsis deals with
JS>tense (present, past, future, progressive, past-perfect, future-perfect,
JS>etc.)
No, idiot, that is ALL part of conjugation. Jesusfuckingchrist,
no WONDER you are so abysmally stupid. Someone needs to close down
that paper-mill you attended...
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž If a fundy knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:53
EID:41eb 22739b80
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KY>Yes, but sadly, the US govt. does not always seem to care about the law.
KY>In fact, often they seem to be on the side of homosexuals more than
KY>Christians.
Bullshit. The country is essentially *run* by Kristians.
But that's changing, fortunately.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž He's not a complete idiot...some parts are missing.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 2/
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:53
EID:c93c 22739b80
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KY>necessarily for special rights for anyone. They simply do not want gays
to
KY>have special rights.
NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE, YOU FUCKING MORON.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž A word to the wise is unnecessary.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:53
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KY>I know several gays and bis that have told me that they chose that way.
Seem
KY>like I run into more all the time that think this way
I asked you before for some names. You never provided any. It is
obvious you are a lying fuck.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Jesus loves you. But then again, so does Barney.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Baby in Critical Conditi
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:53
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RS>KS> RS>KS> JS>The Apostle Paul received his gospel directly from Christ.
RS>KS> RS>KS> Oh? When and where?
RS>KS> RS>Well, just like Jim explained with Falwell, Robertson, etc...
RS>KS> Uh huh. And I notice there was no answer...
RS>Yeah. Jimson asks us "Evidence?" all the time, yet never
RS>presents any himself.
Well, his 'evidence' is 'evidence' because the 'evidence' *says* it's
'evidence'.
Maybe someday he'll figure out clockwise from counterclockwise and
spin the other way for a while.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž There is no cause for alarm. And the check's in the mail
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:56
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RS> * On 10-03-97 at 15:42, KEN WIENS wrote to DAN CEPPA,
RS> on the topic of "Accepting Reality" in echo Holysmoke:
RS>KW> To set the record straight. I think there will be
RS>KW> HOMOS in heaven. Why? Because being a HOMO (whether
RS>KW> one is born one or one by choice) does not send
RS>KW> one to heaven or hell.
RS>Strange. Ken Young believes that no homos will be in heaven.
One of the most amusingly delightful things about this echo is
watching the fundies of different stripes unsheath their claws
and fight each other over the 'correct' interpretation of Kristian
dogma.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž He's not a complete idiot...some parts are missing.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: raising children for hel
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:58
EID:bf80 22739b80
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RS> * On 12-03-97 at 13:44, JIM STAAL wrote to DAVID RICE,
RS>JS> DR> ... "May your lips be seared with hot coals, blasphemer!" --
Jim
RS>Staal
RS>Do you wish me to sear your lips for your mischaracterisations?
It already happened. He tried to blow up a schoolbus.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž A word to the wise is unnecessary.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Anthony Grigor-Scott
|Sub: 666
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:59
EID:f9d7 22739b80
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AG> RS> Watched Schindler's List lately, Anthony? Or would your eyes burn?
AG>No need to view what we know are lies.
Hey. FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE.
AG>Kind regards,
Eat shit.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž "Look at the dead bird!"...Fundy (looking up), "where?"
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: CHEESE WHIZ
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:59
EID:9afd 22739b80
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JS>Big difference between my tight little anus and a vagina, both in design
JS>and function.
ACK! Was that *you* in my room in Grand Rapids last month??????????
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Certainly I support the right to arm bears.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: dumb religious delusions
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:59
EID:8e56 22739b80
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KY>Because no matter what evidence is there, likely you wouldn't accept
it.
KY>Acceptance would have to come through faith, and nothing else. Evidence
won'
KY>necessarily make you believe.
But faith *does*????????????
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž Does the Godfather have Satanchildren?
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:59
EID:379f 22739b80
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162b2582
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KW>DC>How many 12 year old rape victims did you execute during
KW>DC>your sabbatical?
KW> life of the unborn child. All that matters is that a
KW> woman can choose to do what she wants with her body.
KW> That makes you and everyone who thinks like you more
KW> than vile, self-righteous, little pustules.
Whereas you are a vile, self-righteous BIG pustule.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž There is no cause for alarm. And the check's in the mail
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Holy Jit!
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:59
EID:e19f 22739b80
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162b2583
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
DM> DM> "Oy! You came right on my goy!
DM> AH> Student: "The same way you wash Jews."
DM> And genitals come in two varieties: catheters and prosthetics.
What happened to cucumbers and cantaloupes?
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž My computer is shittier than your computer.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Harper
|Sub: clones
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:28:59
EID:a856 22739b80
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 335 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 162b2584
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
HA> on this planet? Where does the spark of life for a cloned being,
animal
HA> or human, come from?
DNA, digestion and respiration.
HA> For that matter...cloning of human beings has been attempted and
studied
HA> for over a century...allusions to the practice are the basis for
the
HA> Frankenstein book and stories. Dr. Mengele, the Nazi bio-researcher
Bullshit. Frankenstein made his creature with a transplanted brain, you
moron.
HA> research and experimentation center in the jungles of South America.
HA> The center was dedicated to cloning in an attempt to recreate Adolph
HA> Hitler. No experiments have been successful, to this point.
Another idiotic fundy urban myth.
HA> Read the Book, See the Movie, THEN..when you are better-informed...is
the
HA> time to make claims...and back them up... (IOW: put up or shut up)
BWAHAHAHA. This from an ignoramus. You're funny.
-!-
ž OLX 2.2 ž 2 rules for success: (1) Don't tell everything you know..
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: Quantum crackpot brawley
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:15:30
EID:0fb3 227449e0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> On 16 Mar 97, Christopher Hughes wrote:
DC>> Quickly now: What's 1273 - 1273 ?
CH>> > In which system, the discrete or the continuous?
CH>> Both. Same answer in either. Zero.
> Uh-uh: if there's a "zero block" in the discrete, then it's left
> sitting there after 1273 blocks have been removed. (So, were there
> 1273 objects to begin with, or were there 127_4_? (*grin*))
There were 1273 to start with. Take away 1273, and how many do you have
left? Zero. Zero's a concept, as much as a position on the number line.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:19:24
EID:11b4 22744a60
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> But how many black ones, John? What's 5-5?
> Five minus five is "zero." Five black marbles minus five black marbles
> is "no black marbles." Ten marbles (black OR white) minus ten marbles
> leaves one marble, IFF there's a "zero marble" in the mixture.
> WHY is my counterexample so hard for some people to admit to?
Because it's cracked.
> I am arguing _solely_ that the existence of a "block," identical in
all
> respects to all other blocks, but labelled "the zero block,"
> occasionally produces anomalous answers from a line of (two end-to-end
> sets of) blocks separated by a "zero block." It's obvious by the
> above, but you, and Robert, at least, seem unwilling to admit it --you
> skirt the example by returning to the original phrasing. ("What's
> 5-5?")
> Why do you do this?
Because at one point, you seemed to be having difficulty in your own system
subtracting 6-6. You said you'd have to get back to us on this one. I'm
just seeing if you've managed to come up with the answer yet.
> You _require_ 11 "blocks" in a line representing the 5 negative and
> five positive integers, to accommodate this 'zero block,' but you
> ignore it when toting up the number of blocks from 'x' to 'y' IFF
the
> toting passes over the "zero block." Why is it so difficult to admit
> that?
You require 11 blocks in a line representing the number 5 to 15, also.
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Your problem is that you're getting the steps confused with the numbers.
When I want to know how many hours there are between 8pm and 2am, I don't
start with 8pm. I start counting "9pm is 1 hour, 10pm is 2, 11pm is 3,
midnight is 4, 1am is 5, 2am is 6." If I started with "8pm is 1", I'd
be an hour off.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Accepting Reality
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:28:52
EID:19e2 22744b80
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KW>> To set the record straight. I think there will be
KW>> HOMOS in heaven. Why? Because being a HOMO (whether
KW>> one is born one or one by choice) does not send
KW>> one to heaven or hell.
> Strange. Ken Young believes that no homos will be in heaven.
I wonder if he thinks all the saints and martyrs of the church that
maintained sexual liaisons and relationships with other clergymen
inside the monestaries are going to heaven...
[See John Boswell's "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality"
for specifics.]
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: prophets
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:38:00
EID:75f7 22744cc0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> * On 10-03-97 at 00:27, BRYSON HUGHES wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER,
> on the topic of "prophets" in echo Holysmoke:
BH>> KS> Could you send me some of whatever you're smoking?
BH>> It isn't drugs...
BH>> KS> Get some help for those delusions.
BH>> It isn't insanity!
BH>> IT'S THE REAL THING.
> Did you do Sodom, dear?
Been to Sodom, did the angels, got the t-shirt.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Freedom of choice
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:27:32
EID:8367 22745360
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Christians have religious protection under the law. Gay people
RS>> do not. Christians have the right to claim religious
RS>> discrimination in each and every state and local governance in
RS>> the USA, gays only have partial protection from discrimination in
RS>> 9 states.
> Yes, but sadly, the US govt. does not always seem to care about the
> law. In fact, often they seem to be on the side of homosexuals more
> than Christians.
Oh, right. That's why Congress passed DOMA. That's why Congress didn't
pass ENDA. That's why 26 States sill have anti-sodomy laws on the books.
That's why I've spent four fucking years apart from my husband, while
any damn hetboy can marry a mail-order bride and import her into the US.
That's why the Christian Coalition has so much political clout that it's
able to keep people from investigating its non-profit status.
Yeah, right, Ken. What colour is the sky in your world?
> If one discriminates against gays, it can be labeled as a "hate crime."
So can it if someone discriminates against Christians. But in reality,
just how often does that happen in real life?
KY>> But no, CHristianity isn't confusion. It is the cure for confusion.
RS>> Christianity is confusion, Ken... Just look at you. Unable to
RS>> provide any evidence for your claims -- because no evidence can
RS>> stand up to criticism.
> I will admit, you have unlike the rest that agree with you, have
> provided what you think is evidence. But it is only a bunch of
> opinions, even if they are opinions based on psychology.
Ken, all you've done is sat there with earplug in your ears, a blindfold
over your eyes and both thumbs up your butt screaming "I CAN'T HEAR YOU"
in the desparate hope that if you chant long enough, we'll go away.
What we've presented you is citation after citation from respected,
recognised scientific journals, published work by the American Psychological
Association, and _as_extra_, our own opinions. But you blithely sidestep
the evidence by saying that psychology is unimportant.
Ken, you're an idiot. And you're not even an amusing one at that.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Driving Mr. Daisy 1/
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:28:40
EID:1361 22745380
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> DEMONSTRATION AT ROUNDHOUSE INCLUDES EXPRESSIONS OF LOVE ALONG WITH
RS>> REVULSION OVER GAY MARRIAGES
RS>> Straight couples renew vows, too
> Well, I guess it all depends on what you view as gay bashing. Do
you
> really think it is gay bashing for one to say that homosexuality is
> immoral?
Ken, they've already GOT legally recognised marriages. What in the name
of
pluperfect hell do they have to publicly renew their vows for? What this
was, was a deliberate attempt on the part of a handful of insecure straights
to insult the whole of the gay community by saying "We've got legal rights
and you don't, so there!" And they had a pastor up there screaming words
of
hatred right alongside their marriage vows. Would you want that kind of
pastor preaching at your wedding? I sure as hell wouldn't. Of course, I
don't want a pastor present at my wedding at all (though I've got about
a dozen friends who are all ULC ministers that want to officiate at Rod's
and my actual ceremony).
RS>> "If that's allowed, what's to prevent" other unnatural unions, Butler
RS>> asked, such as between a parent and a child? Rep. Timothy Macko,
RS>> R-Albuquerque, argued that legalizing same-sex marriages would "lead
RS>> to a slippery slope" and promote "other forms of perversion" such as
RS>> bestiality.
> THat is the question I would like to pose to you? I already see other
> things getting accepted more, and I must wonder if one thing that
is
> usually considered to be deviant, homosexuality, being accepted more,
> could be leading the way for other things to get accepted more.
First of all, I'd like to ask how recognising consensual relationships
between two adults of the same sex is going to lead you anywhere on a
slippery slope. To incest? Brother and sister can't get married now;
how would same-sex marriage lead to brother and brother being legal,
when brother and sister isn't? To polygamy? How can letting two men
or two women marry lead into three or more people marrying? To human-
animal marriages? Animals can't give consent and marriage must be
consensual (both partners must say "yes".) To adult-child marriages?
Children can't give legal consent.
So tell me, just what is this slippery slope that you're talking about?
What awaits on the other end that you find so utterly horrifying that
banning all forms of love other than the strict "one man/one woman"
arrangement is an acceptable alternative?
> Generally, big changes occur in little steps, and it is a concern
of
> mine that homosexuality getting accepted, could lead the way to other
> things getting accepted, that you would even find sick.
Such as....? See above. Ultimately, I think your argument comes down to
nothing more than "I don't like it, so I don't think it should be legal."
And I've yet to see you introduce one premise in your argument that doesn't
basically reduce to that statement.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Driving Mr. Daisy 2/
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:06:14
EID:e361 227450c0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Consider yourself educated about these "heterosexual special
RS>> rights rallies".
RS>> Rod "...and debunked" Swift :)
> Debunked generally means one has been proven wrong. But I fail to
see
> yet, any rallies for heterosexual special rights. They were anti-gay,
> but not necessarily for special rights for anyone. They simply do
not
> want gays to have special rights.
You have yet to show that asking for the right to marry my husband in
fact as well as feeling is a special right. Try again.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:13:30
EID:bf16 227451a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> No you're not. You've stated that local/state-based
RS>> discriminations and illegalities should exist. You've said that
RS>> majoritarianism should be allowed to run rife and unchecked in
RS>> those legislative arenas.
> To explain further, I am for majority rule in a local area or a state,
> but only when it doesn't go against the Constitution. And at this
> point, anti-gay legislation does not go against the US Constitution.
So, if the majority decided to revoke the tax-exempt status of churches,
based on the separation of church and state, you wouldn't argue it?
You're hiding behind a document whose contents you don't even understand.
The United States government signed the Covenant on Human Rights as
adopted by the UN. Under the Articles of the Constitution, all treaties
signed by the US government have the force of federal law in the United
States. The Covenant proclaimed the right to marry as an _individual_
right, one of the most fundamental rights recognised. The First Amendment
to the Constitution guarantees the freedom of religion, which includes
the freedom from religion. As a member of the Church of Freethought, my
marriage to my husband is recognised by my religion. Yet, my religious
freedom is being curtailed, because the _majority_ of Christians decided
that it was acceptable to curtail my rights.
Your majoritarian principles don't coincide with your trust in the
Constitution, because the Constitution lays out laws that protect the
rights of a minority from the whim of a majority. You can't be a
majoritarian and a Federalist at the same time. It's either-or. One's
got to go.
You need to get a few neurons in your head working before you go trying
to use logic, I think.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:16:06
EID:8668 22745200
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Wouldn't that be a reason to find out why the mainstream
RS>> Christians are so afraid of them that they must resort to
RS>> terrorism to scare people from joining that church and hearing
RS>> their words?
> Well, have you ever talked with other Christians in real life, to
find
> out why they oppose homosexuality so much?
Bigotry. Misrepresentation of their own Bible to justify their prejudices.
All the same reasons the KKK hates blacks and the Southern Baptists used
to tolerate slavery and the oppression of women.
RS>> It's so sad you are anti-gay rights, and hence don't care
RS>> about the welfare and well-being of your gay bretheren, some of
RS>> whom may and will question why you support such anti-gay rights,
RS>> when you could easily afford them at no expense to your own
RS>> rights.
> WHy I am against gay rights, is because I see it as special rights.
I
> am for equality, but I do not see that as being the homosexual agenda.
Then you don't even understand the playing field, much less the arguments.
You've fallen, lock, stock and barrel for the tired old "gay rights are
special rights" routine. Have you even bothered to check the facts of the
matter yourself, or do your ears and eyes only open when there's a Bible
in front of them?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:24:44
EID:d518 22745300
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> I have stated dozens of examples of inequality under the law.
RS>> The last time I checked, gay people were tax-paying citizens.
RS>> Maybe gay people should stop paying taxes if they refuse to get
RS>> equal treatment from governments.
> Almost every one gets equal treatment. We are equally persecuted
> against.
Except you aren't. Your marriage, if you married, would be recognised
by the government. Have you ever been denied access to your girlfriend
or wife when she was sick? I have. Have you been kept apart from your
loved ones for four years because of predujice and bigotry? I have.
Don't you _ever_ dare to tell me that you're persecuted against in the
same way I have.
> Sometimes I wonder who you are arguing with. I am for equality.
I
> just oppose special rights, but I do not wish to outlaw what I see
as
> immorality.
That's funny. In an earlier post, you said you were all for permitting
local governments the right to outlaw sodomy and same-sex marriages. How
is that support for equality?
You're full of shit, Ken, and you're starting to leak.
> First, I never said it was a conscious choice. I believe sometimes
it
> is a conscious choice and sometimes it is a subconscious choice.
> I know several gays and bis that have told me that they chose that
> way. Seems like I run into more all the time that think this way
Names? Addresses? Support for your contentions?
> What you have given me was interesting, but is merely psychological
> opinion. There have so far been no scientific or medical facts. I
> have not claimed to have any handy, but you have. But have provided
> ideas and thoughts, rather than evidence.
Ken, you know nothing of science. Is the testimony of an expert witness
in court thrown out as opinion? Do you think that criminal psychologists
would be worth a damn if all they really had were "opinions"?
> Well, I probably could find you a few former gay people that would
> strongly disagree with you on that.
By all means, invite them to the echo. I'd for one love to get someone
claiming to be an "ex-gay" in here to show you the truth.
> I have seen a friend of mine gradually became bisexual. It was quite
> obviously a choice on her part, and she admits that. She used to
be
> straight,but now has no preference between one sex or the other.
Did she choose to be attracted to women? Or did she choose to act on the
already existing attraction? Did you ever consider that those two issues
might be different?
> I am not a believer of psychology, so I often go by talking with
> people, hearing their experiences, and hearing about when they became
> gay or realized that they were gay.
Then if that's the case, why do you discount Rod's and my experiences when
we tell you we never chose?
RS>> I'm so sorry to hear that you think sexual expression is a
RS>> mechanical act equatable to a selfish personal act.
> It isn't necessarily, but when it is just for sex it usually is.
Sex for the purpose of pleasure is one of the most 'selfless' acts one
can perform, as well as one of the most selfish. By giving one's partner
orgasm, do you realise what kind of trust your partner puts in you? What
kind of barriers they let down in order to permit you access to that
part of themselves, both physically and mentally? You don't even seem
to understand sex, much less sexuality. Try taking some classes on the
subject and come back when you've got an education and a brain to use it.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Mark O'neill
|Sub: Re: 1 The List
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:27:02
EID:dd63 22745360
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Ah, about six years my senior, I see.
> Only in body. Probably about 10 years behind you in the head. Growing
> older doesn't require growing up. ;-)
You're just a doodoohead! :)
MO>>> Will never be married as it would be hypocritical to hate christianity
MO>>> only to partake in one of its institutions.
RS>> Well, marriage is a civil act. You can be married civilly
RS>> without having religious marriage :) :)
> Yeah, I know but the institution itself makes me uncomfortable. I
see
> no need to be married. Besides, after six months in a defacto
> relationship you're considered married in the eyes of the law anyway.
Well, this depends on the state. The federal government doesn't have any
actual recognition of common-law marriages, but some states still do.
Texas does, and in fact the instant a man and a woman sign "Mr. and Mrs."
on something, Texas calls them married. Unfortunately, it doesn't work
for us. *sigh*
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Fundyskool logic
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:35:26
EID:f6db 22745460
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
SA>> Why do fundies have such a hard time with male/female names?
SA>> Frankly, "Jan" to me almost automatically indicates a male,
SA>> if only because a second-cousin of mine, Sue, married a guy
SA>> named Jan. And the whole family pronounces it wrong for some
SA>> reason; it should be "Yan" instead of "Jan".
> My spouse and I are "Pat" and "Lou." Which one is which?
I got a better one for you. Rod's and my friends down in Houston
are a married couple called "Pat" and "Dale."
> I work with a woman named "Kevin." That is her legal name,
> not a nickname.
I have a male second cousin named Beverly. *shrug*
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:38:22
EID:11b4 227454c0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RC>> You might try pressing that key just above and to the left
RC>> of Q on your keyboard, for a reduction in its rendition.
> No fractions? An unquestioned "one" that must be the first
> (infinitesimal?) increment-from-zero, appearing in any fraction?
All
> fractions, as well as all numbers, reduce to collections of some
> fundamental indivisible subunit we should arbitrarily call a "one?"
> (I'd like to establish what you're saying exactly, before making the
> statement that it's quite close to what I have been, with the single-
> point-unit in place of the concept of the 'number' "one.")
Any infinite discrete metric can be mapped on a one-to-one correspondance
with the integers. Saying that the first step after zero is one is a
perfectly permissable statement, if a trifle misleading. From zero units
to one unit, whatever size a unit happens to be. *shrug*
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:39:22
EID:5abc 227454e0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JS>> Well, yeah. I find baby-murder to be disgusting. what has that to do
JS>> with the Truth?
KD>> I found *birth* to be disgusting. Shall I outlaw that?
> The pro-choicers have already tried and suceeded in doing that.
Ok, people, Jim has gone off the deep end. Birth is now illegal in
his world.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: CHEESE WHIZ
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:43:18
EID:900e 22745560
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RH>> Jim; picture yourself trying to shit a softball.
JS>> Big difference between my tight little anus and a vagina, both in
JS>> design and function.
RH>> That's not what Rod said.
> Uh, s'cuse me!? Out of which orifice would one expel fecal material?
Well, unless you and the Lovely Wilbur have got your roles backwards somehow,
I doubt you've got an orifice through which you're going to be expelling
a baby. He merely gave you the closest equivalent that we males could
conceivably experience.
You _are_ male, aren't you?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Staal wants to know.
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:46:32
EID:f351 227455c0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
FR>> Before one can
FR>> believe in the Christian "Satan" god one must _be_ a Christian,
> One doesn't have to believe in Satan to be under his control. You
> don't believe, and yet the evidence is abundant.
Jim, just how in the name of pluperfect hell do you expect someone
that's an atheist to give any such credence to your idiocies? You're
trying to set up the problem in such a way that you can simply define
the opposition out of the contest.
The existence or non-existence of Satan is as irrelevant as the existence
or non-existence of God. You believe. I don't. You're never going to
demonstrate conclusively that God exists, and I'm not going to waste
my time trying to poke holes in your faith (it's more fun poking holes
in the consequences of your faith).
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: You forgot to answer this
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:53:10
EID:4a5b 227456a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> You're point is...? We Christians don't HAVE a conflict with
> Judaism. We merely point out to those inquiring minds intelligent
> enough to see logic that Christianity is the "New, Improved, version"
> of Judaism. (Judaists still look for the coming of the Messiah...we
> acknowledge that Christ *IS/WAS* the messiah, and accept Him as
> such...period..
Why is it that every time someone "new and improves" something, they make
it worse? First Coke, then Diet Dr Pepper, then Campbell's Chicken Noodle
Soup, and now Judaism.
> No, I don't...do YOU know...REALLY...how many times CHRISTIANS
were
> involved in this sort of affair? Be sure that you aren't laying
> crimes at our doorstep that belong to someone else...like a
> power-hungry mentally-unstable jewish halfbreed ashamed of his
> heritage who triggered the Holocaust in Germany in the
> 1930's...(NEWS FLASH: Hitler was NOT a Christian...he was a
> lunatic on the order of Jimmy Jones)
He was still a Lutheran. And Jim Jones was an Evangelical.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:56:10
EID:51c1 22745700
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> He WAS correct in his statement that sodomy is illegal in many
> states, but the law is unenforceable...as long as the participants
> keep it at home, where it belongs...even `straight' couples are
not
> allowed to practice copulation in public, tho, so where's the
> discrimination factor there? One of the current administration's
> biggest accomplish- ments was the formulation of the "don't ask,
> don't tell" policy.
Then why is it that under "don't ask, don't tell," the number of
discharges for homosexuality has gone UP, and now down?
> But the topic was infringement of gays' civil rights. These are
> still intact and inviolate. If there is discrimination that takes
> away their right to housing, employment, etc., it can be fought
in
> the courts, even as such discrinatory practices aimed at more
> visible minorities are brought under fire. Even Colorado's
> Amendment 2 was not aimed at denying gays their rights...it was
an
> attempt to keep them from claiming "special" status, guaranteeing
> them rights already in place for EVERYONE. (And, yes, I *DID*
read
> it as it was written, not as it was portrayed in the media...)
Did you read the text of CO2? It specifically removed the clauses governing
banning descriminiation based on sexual orientation from all city ordinances,
and further denied homosexuals (but not heterosexuals) from the right to
seek redress of grievances for such discrimination.
I suggest that the next time you propose to have read something, you read
it.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Re: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:59:32
EID:dd25 22745760
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> If someone no longer "engage(s) in homosexual acts," how
> does that make that person an "ex-homosexual?" Are you
> really that goddamned stupid?! I do not engage in any
> "heterosexual acts" (I'm repulsively ugly), so does that
> make me an "ex-heterosexual?"
No, you had to have engaged in them at one time in your life, first.
*grin*
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Scurvy
|Date: 16 Mar 97 23:00:00
EID:18dc 2270b800
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 32e18c92
-=> Quoting ROBERT CURRY to RICK MCFARLANE <=-
Good morning, Robert.
RC> Why would an otherwise sane and rational person believe
RC> [that religious figures could miraculously produce vitamin C]?
RM> Because it fits with who I believe those two individuals were.
RC> You would believe it just because it "fits with" other unevidenced
RC> religious beliefs?
"Unevidenced"? I personally feel my religious beliefs are well evidenced.
The fact that you disagree with that assessment is noted.
RM> And we have already discussed the sane, rational basis of
RM> _that_ belief over a year ago. Maybe you remember that discussion.
RC> I remember that there was nothing either sane OR rational about it.
Your memory is flawed. I wrote a lengthy (3 part, I believe) post
outlining not the evidence, but where you could FIND the evidence that I
was referring to. Did you look? Nope, you dismissed it out of hand.
From here it looks like you have no basis to make any judgement about
the sanity or rationality of my beliefs. Your conclusion precedes your
investigation - not exactly a rational position to take, Robert.
RC> Perhaps it "fits with" your beliefs to remember otherwise. :-)
Funny. I was about to say the same about you.
But all of this merely reinforces my previous comment that I doubt a
reprise will be any more enlightening.
Take care.
... One planet... One people.... Please!
--- AdeptXBBS v1.08H12 (Registered)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ALAN HESS
|Sub: Blavatsky?
|Date: 20 Mar 97 07:32:00
EID:db19 22743c00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Alan Hess to Fredric Rice <=-
>FR> Well, Jew boy?
AH> I demand that you immediately apologize to all Jews
AH> for even jokingly placing AGS in their ranks. Jews
AH> have had enough problems throughout history from the
AH> likes of him without having him thrust into the group.
AH> There are enough bigots among fundy Jews already -
AH> Judaism doesn't need his wacky cult added to the mix.
Well *I* thought it was funny--- calling a waco lunatic
who believes the New World Order and the Trilatteral
Commision is being run by The Elders of Zion to take
over the planet using black people as unwitting pawns,
a "Jew boy." That's FUNNY!
... A creationist who accepts scientific evidence? Who is this REALLY?
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: another one!
|Date: 20 Mar 97 07:39:00
EID:8b3a 22743ce0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Alan Hess:
>> and blood of this earth,please explain to me why
>> we have found pieces of Noah's Ark, the shroud of
>> Jesus' execution and other items that is mentioned
>> in the Bible. if you would please respond to this
>> inqiury so that we could discuss this further and
>> hear your expliantion.
FR> Another product of home schooling, I see.
Ex-governor Jerry Brown discussed "home schooling"
on his show "We, the People" two days ago. It sounded
like he was =FOR= the idea. I was unable to phone
into the show.
What worries me about "home schooling" is that there
is no way to test "students" for knowledge. Time and
time again the USA government has said that it has a
"compelling interest" to have its citizens educated,
but "home schooling" has no standards and no way to
verify that those standards would be met.
What also worries me is that "home schooling" leaches
money out of the vastly superior public school system.
... "It only gets better for us when we die" -- Scott Brubaker
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 20 Mar 97 07:43:00
EID:521b 22743d60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting to Ken Young:
KY> find such a thing very sick indeed. But, a majority
KY> of molesters do appear t be gay.
Sorry, no.
The huge majority (90%) of child molestors are straight
men and women: of the men, nearly all of them are the
child's father. The rest of the time it's usually "mommy's
boyfriend," an uncle, or a brother. Most of these
molestors, in the USA, are Christians.
... "Fanaticism ... is religion without integrity." -PAUL SIMMONS
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KARL SCHNEIDER
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 20 Mar 97 07:46:00
EID:87f3 22743dc0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to David Rice <=-
>DR> managed to be the first caller-iner of the show. I told
>DR> them that I am an "ex-negro, but now, praise god, I'm
>DR> white." They hung up on me and said over the air that I
>DR> was "obviously disturbed."
KS> LOL! Good show.
>DR> I wonder if they took the hint.
KS> Or if they really understood *how* disturbed?...
ROTFL! Hey! I wonder if there's an insult in there
somewhere.... :-)
... A path without obstacles probably leads nowhere.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: RICK MCFARLANE
|Sub: Scurvy
|Date: 20 Mar 97 07:54:00
EID:4569 22743ec0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Rick Mcfarlane to David Rice <=-
>DR> Golly. Maybe that means Jesus was #1) a fraud, #2) a
>DR> myth, or #3) embelished folklore.
RM> Or maybe #4) exactly who He[sic] said He[sic] was,
No one knows what Jesus might have said. He didn't write
anything, nor did anyone who knew him write anything, as
far as anyone can tell.
RM> doing exactly what was planned for Him[sic]. The number
RM> of people willing to die with him is hardly grounds to
RM> determine between 1, 2, 3, or 4, is it?
No more than the number of people who died for Hitler.
... "Look, I'm not trying to be ignorant." -- Mickey Buchanan
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Lunatic buttfucks
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:02:00
EID:387f 22745040
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to David Rice <=-
>DR> The subject line looks like a Fredric [selection]. :-)
RC> As if there were any doubt.
I wrote a program that reads Fredric's messages looking
for "shit" and "fuck" and perform statistical sums on it.
It doesn't do "buttfuck" though. :-)
>>KW> 2 Pet 3:3-9 3Know this first of all, that in the
>>KW> last days mockers will come
>DR> Every crackpot in I_UFO said the same thing.
RC> These idiots think that a prediction of flatulance
RC> after a diet of beans for a month would be evidence
RC> of divine wisdom if only they found it written in
RC> their holy comic books.
They learned that lesson from the (anonymous) authors
of The Book of Matthew. No claim is too silly to qualify
as a "fulfilled prophesy."
I predict two tides today. Golly.
... "The fossil record, when played backwards, proves evolution" - F Rice
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:03:00
EID:6d6f 22745060
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to David Rice <=-
RC> with: Jim Staal
RC>
>DR> HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS DISCREPANCY?
RC> It's a miracle. Everything he can't explain is just
RC> another miracle.
He is slowly falling into a trap that he only dimly
perceives. I'm about ready to spring the genetic
bottleneck of "Noah's Flood" at him.
... Jesus was a cross dresser.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: STEVE QUARRELLA
|Sub: Scurvy
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:08:00
EID:8ca8 22745100
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to David Rice <=-
DR> That was said of Jesus, not "Christ." There is a vast
DR> difference. I have every bit of faith that James Randi
DR> could duplicate the feat in from of 5,000 witnesses
DR> and probably have most of them believing it (humans
DR> being the stupid shits they are).
SQ> Let's not forget that David Copperfield vanished the
SQ> Statue of Liberty and later levitated over the Grand
SQ> Canyon. Pretty big miracles, wouldn't you say? :)
Jesus could not have done as well.
... Caution: 85% of xians are having a bad day and will be obnoxious.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROD SWIFT
|Sub: Alternative or Straw
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:13:00
EID:ca43 227451a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to David Rice <=-
>DR> "I have heard you have a quote book of evolutionists
>DR> which demonstrates evolution to be false--- something
>DR> I have suspected all along. May I have a copy to
>DR> review for my congregation?"
RS> So you have a copy of the Revised Quote Book?
I do not. I sent away for his "Bones of Contention"
bullshit. I wasn't about to pay for the "quote" book.
A dime is too much.
... I was naked when I wrote this....
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROD SWIFT
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:18:00
EID:ce9f 22745240
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to David Rice <=-
>> FLORIDA -- State court removed child from lesbian
>> mother and gave custody to father. Father is a
>> convicted wife-beater and murderer.
>JS> Would that seem to say that a wife-beater and murderer
>JS> is a better role model than a lesbian???[sic]
>DR> No. It says the state court is made up of goddamed
>DR> ignorant shits who deserve to be hauled out into the
>DR> streets and shot down like the sick, creatures they
>DR> are.
RS> Doesn't it just. Did you know the mother has
RS> unfortunately died of a heart attack. Stress from
RS> the case, you see. :( The child now no longer can
RS> be cared for by her partner, but the murderous bastard
RS> who just happened to biologically be the father, even
RS> though he beats wives and children.
Beating weak, defenseless family members is the Christian
thing to do, historically speaking.
The Fundy Christians and other radical Right-wing nuts
love to scream "Less Government!" except when it comes
to fascist control of people they dislike: then they
embrace tyrany with glee.
>DR> ... "May your lips be seared with hot coals,
>DR> blasphemer!" -- Jim Staal
RS> Great quote, wasn't it?
If it were not so sad, it would be funny.
RS> I just wonder, some days, who is the actual
RS> blasphemer. Me, for exposing Jimson to the inadequacies
RS> of his salad-bar Christianity, or him, for not following
RS> the bible to the letter of the law :) :)
I consider Christianity itself to be blasphemy, since it
turned God (the REAL God, not the Christian god) into a
human being with all the evil traits of humans.
... Besides, wouldn't devil's food cake be more approriate? -- Dan Ceppa
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROD SWIFT
|Sub: Freedom of homosexuality
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:26:00
EID:e396 22745340
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to David Rice <=-
>DR> Can [Ken Young] =REALLY= believe that homosexual sex
>DR> is so fantastic that the violence, threats, intimidation,
>DR> and descrimination homosexuals appear to suffer in
>DR> society is worth it?
Call me crazy and confused (just don't call me late for
dinner), but my mind just drew a parallel with the current
war against Cuba by the USA, and the following:
RS> Yes. He does. Further, based on his own admission
RS> that to stop homosexuals, we must help them see how
RS> futile their lives is, the only way we can really
RS> continue to discourage homosexuality is to either
RS> make the sex less enjoyable or the punishments and
RS> beatings more severe.
Many people wish to make the lives of homosexuals so
miserable that they, the homosexuals, will flee into the
closets and act straight. This increases these people's
comfort levels regarding their own internally-questionable
sexuality.
The USA tried the same thing with Cuba and its communist
revolution: make life so miserable under Castro, people
will falsely link their misery to communism and not the
USA blockade and embargo.
But then I'm just being silly, I guess.
... God says if we tithe $1 million, he'll give us the Mars probe back.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub: Alternative or Straw
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:45:00
EID:57ca 227455a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to David Rice <=-
>DR> No one believes that a cell formed by "accident." If
>DR> you had any brain cells, you'd know this fact.
LA> Then WHO formed the first cell?
WHO formed the first snow flake, mister stupid?
... Sacrilege: Anything damaging to things sacred, especially truth.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:52:00
EID:8fe9 22745680
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Karen Davis <=-
>KD> I found *birth* to be disgusting. Shall I outlaw that?
JS> The pro-choicers have already tried and suceeded in
JS> doing that.
Yes, and there's space aliens living on the Moon.
... "God doesn't know what does NOT happen!" - Michael Hardy
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: My Bear and Computers
|Date: 18 Mar 97 03:41:41
EID:d757 22721d20
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3330f2b9
-=> Quoting Katherine Wintersnight to All <=-
KW> Utilities, I would appreciate it. As it is, I'm just trying to
KW> stay calm, and remind myself that the occasional computer is a
KW> small price to pay for a man so wonderful in so many other ways.
KW> (Score to date since Jan 1--the pent three times, the 486 twice,
KW> and his mother's elderly 286 once)
Have you ever thought about getting him one of his very own to
break? ;)
Sue
... "Of course I'm sane. The voices said so..."
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Quote! Quote!
|Date: 19 Mar 97 00:57:58
EID:08aa 22730720
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3330f2bb
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
RS> Yes, isn't it. Every fertilised egg that does not gain uterine
RS> wall implantation, and hence is aborted, is the fault of your
RS> God.
SA> iJS> Fault of sinful man and his 'science'.
FR> Neat! See the spontaneous abortions which occur in
FR> all mammals is due to "man." And "science" which prove that this
FR> fucking dipshit savage is being lied to is part of the conspiracy.
JS> I believe he was talking about invitro here.
SA> Not from what I recall of the conversation. No matter how the
SA> egg is fertilized, if it does not implant it is aborted.
JS> So then you see no difference between and natural miscarriage and
JS> intentional human induced/forced abortion?
The growth cycle of the embryo or the fetus comes to a stop in both
natural and induced abortions, Jim. By the way...where does the
question come into play in the above interchange?
Sue
... All the kookies are not in the jar.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Stuart Lumgair
|Sub: clones
|Date: 20 Mar 97 00:52:47
EID:2eb0 22740680
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3330f2bc
-=> Quoting Stuart Lumgair to Sue Alexander <=-
ks> Well, 'Dolly', the first actual adult mammal clone
ks> is alive and well. Coincidentally, she's a sheep.
FR> I'm wonderig why it's being considered the first. Food cows have
FR> been cloned for the past decade.
SA> From what I understand, cows are not cloned but merely
SA> artificially inseminated for breeding purposes. However,
SA> the results are not THAT different...;)
SL> Actually they have also been doing embryo transplants
SL> for a number of years now. I don't know the details on
SL> the embryos though. My father works as an A.I. technician.
SL> Most food cows, beef as opposed to dairy, are not artificially
SL> inseminated. On the other hand, most dairy cows are. My observations
SL> may not be valid for your area.
I'm in Wisconsin...what's a food cow?? However, embryo
transplants would be "test tube cow babies", not clones. Different
method than what I indicated, though similar results.
Sue
... Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 20 Mar 97 01:55:20
EID:feca 22740ee0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3330f2bd
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
RS> I've only known a life of Godlessness... It is a beautiful life.
JS> You have a god. The Bible says those who don't worship God, worship
JS> the god of this world: Satan.
SA> So Jim...do you believe that Satan exists?
JS> Of course, Sue.
Hmmmm...then why is Satan a god to Rod but not a god to you?
Sue
... To boldly go where no sane man has any business.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 20 Mar 97 01:58:43
EID:9259 22740f40
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3330f2be
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> How can you be so sure, then, that 1 million Christian men can
SA> and will be at that march in DC?
JS> Faith, my dear, faith. :) And if you took the ratio of the
JS> avialable members of previous causes to the numbers who actually
JS> showed and the number iof Christians (alleged or 'true') perhaps
JS> we coujld get an actual estimate of possibility.
Perhaps not. Christians as a group are very diverse.
Sue
... Ahh! I get it!! The Universe *doesn't* make sense!!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 20 Mar 97 02:05:32
EID:ef55 227410a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3330f2bf
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Sue Alexander <=-
SA> given. I was arguing with your premise that if a doctor says that
SA> "all we can do is pray" that the prayer will be a deciding factor.
KD> The deciding factor in such cases is usually time and the general
KD> strength of the individual.
I hope you are including sheer stubborness in your definition of
strength here... ;) From situations I have seen, the will to live (or
not) can be a big factor in survival.
Sue
... Famous Last Words: "Dragon? What dragon?"
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Damien Wellman
|Sub: Hi I'm new
|Date: 20 Mar 97 02:07:47
EID:4ea4 227410e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3330f2c0
-=> Quoting Damien Wellman to Sue Alexander <=-
DW> Then again, I don't think another Staal COULD exist.
SA> Are you forgetting about that aspect of the Staal persona called
SA> "Lumpy" (aka Mark Staal)? Mark and Jim sounded an awful lot alike...
DW> I'm not forgetting at all. However, do remember that The English
DW> Major likes to use many personalities; I'm not entirely convinced
DW> that Lumpy wasn't just yet another Staal personality.
It has been quite awhile now, and Jim STILL has not taken credit
for Lumpy. Considering his previous responses to being caught, this may
be significant. However, maybe he just needs more coaxing.
Sue
... Chocolate = Heaven. Fudge = God.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 20 Mar 97 02:10:21
EID:d32a 22741140
PID: BWMAX2 3.10 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:121/45.0 3330f2ba
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Sue Alexander <=-
KY> Actually, I am very much against ecumenicalism.
SA> Why are you against ecumenicalism?
KY> Well basically because I feel it helps destroy one's religious
KY> identity and religious culture.
KY> the idea that God created us, is the most logical explanation we
KY> have.
How can finding common ground with others that believe in the same
deity that you do destroy religious culture? If God created us, why do
you not want to associate in a religious sense with all humans?
SA> What is wrong with the evidence for evolution, other than the fact
SA> it does not require a deity?
KY> WHat is wrong with it is that no evidence exists.
Evolution has been observed. Creation has not. This blows your
statement right out of the water and into lunar orbit. Do you want to
try again?
KY> And the deity would be what they see as science.
???? The deity is directly measurable as science? If you can
writhe this up as a scientific paper, with research and all to provide
evidence for what you say, I bet you would win a Nobel prize.
Sue
... Who imagines the world for us, and how do they do it?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.20
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:01:40
EID:14cc 22747020
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> Five years before this year was 5 BP? Five years after this
CH>> year is 5 AP? How many years between the start of 5BP and the
CH>> end of 5AP? Eleven, you say? *Har!*
CH>> Yes. Five before, current, five after. 5+1+5 = 11. Fencepost problem.
> "Fencepost problem?" Clarify, please? I've never seen that phrase
> before.
It's a term used in computer science and mathematics for a problem in which
the right answer is actually one less or one greater than the "obvious"
solution.
Example: If I want to build a 100ft fence, and I have to put up a fencepost
every 10ft, how many fenceposts do I need?
The answer is 11, because I have to have one to start, and then every 10ft
after that. In essense, I have to put a fencepost on the "zero block" as
you will. :)
> Now, granted that we have eleven years, on which side of the dividing-
> line between positive and negative years, is the "zero year" located?
> Do you not see that this is a problem? It seems to depend on which
way
> you're facing, doesn't it? And if both ways are equivalent, then
> either there needs to be two 'zero years,' you need to switch your
> viewpoint across a whole year (you can't turn around 'in place'),
or
> that "zero year" is an anomaly.
Neither. It sits ON the line. What's -1 * 0? 0. What's 1*0? 0. Zero is neither
positive nor negative. It just is. The positive integers start with 1 and
go
up, and the negative integers start with -1 and go down. Zero sits between
them.
In essence, you can and do turn around in place. And the zero year isn't
an anomaly.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:05:58
EID:14cc 227470a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> > Figgers.
CH>> > Only a mathematician could construct such an _exquisite_
CH>> > oxymoron. Something with NO parts is a "whole" something, eh?
CH>> (*GUFFAW!*)
CH>> > Tell me: what's half of zero? (*snicker*)
CH>> Zero.
> Why isn't "half of zero" merely a _meaningless_ concept? If zero
is
> the absolute minimum--the limit-which-is-reached-- then half of it
> should be totally without cognitive resonance....
If I have zero widgets, and you tell me to split my widgets into two
"as-close-to-even-as-possible" piles (This is also called "roughly
equal," where one pile gets floor(n/2) and the other gets ceiling(n/2)),
then I have zero widgets in each of the two new piles.
Ergo, 0/2 = 0.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: Focus on the Family mind control
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:13:20
EID:1285 227471a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
rs>> If an atheist shot up an abortion clinic, I'd be the first
rs>> one to call for them to fry on the electric chair.
> I can't think of any ideological reason for an atheist to shoot-up
an
> abortion clinic. The mentally insane might simply to "copycat" a
> Christian terrorist, of course. I wonder if fundies will, after
> reading my comment, now demand that the Christian terrorists in
> operation around the United States are all insane.
Well, it's only one step shy of them demanding that all Christians in
operation around the United States are all insane, which would be a step
in the right direction. :)
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: You win. Staal lost. And it was _easy_.
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:18:42
EID:5431 22747240
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
FR>> He did, you lunatic! And after you read it you made some
FR>> Christanic comments about how much you were "still
FR>> laughing."
FR>> But that was a different personality, huh?
> Strange. I received no response.
> WHY DOESN'T VEGR ANSWER?
VEG'R is waiting for direct input from what it thinks is the Creator.
Anybody want to reach inside Jimson and reprogram him from the inside-out?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Re: Educational Experienc
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:24:28
EID:d8aa 22747300
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> RichS> Is it a noun? Can one
> RichS> pick it up, shake it, show it to others?
> RodS> You have a poor definition of noun. :)
> I was trying to simplify it for Jimson's comprehension.
You still used a polysyllabic word, though. Jim only understands things
of one syllable or less.
RodS>> Nouns are visible and tangible are they? :) :)
RodS>> God is a noun :)
> Only if it exists.
No, God's a noun, even though none of them exist. "Unicorn" is a noun, too.
:)
> Now don't you start getting saucy with me . . .
"Don't you get saucy with me, Bernaise!"
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Re: hateful
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:28:26
EID:79dc 22747380
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RC>> Why are you so full of this irrational hate?
RS>> There is only one reason for this hate -- his religion.
RS>> If his religion was removed, I doubt he would hate gays.
RS>> In fact, if he had never been exposed to religion, he
RS>> would not hate homosexuality.
> I disagree. It is possible to be a bigot without having religious
> dogmatism to assist to prop up such bigotry.
It's possible, but again, it falls to utter irrationality. The closest
thing I've ever heard to a non-religiously based bias against homosexuality
was its "lack of aesthetic appeal," whatever the hell that might be.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
--- via Silver Xpress V4.3 [NR]
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: Re: HOMOSEXUALS ALSO REPR
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:32:24
EID:8816 22747400
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> No, you *think* that gay/lesbian couples do not feel strongly
RS>> about it.
> Bullshit. You _SAID_ they didn't, that gay/lesbian couples were
> not uncommon. And I have already heard that gays married to straights
> split up because it's too unpleasant.
I can't say as they're overwhelmingly prevalent, but I do know of a
few that do exist. Most of them are simply close friendships that exist
for convenience's sake. Many of them are for covers for workplaces and
such.
RS>> Here is the point I wish you to ponder.
RS>> Why do heterosexuals try homosexual sex acts? Don't they find
RS>> the acts distasteful?
> If we are talking about straight men buttfucking straight or gay
> men then I would deny they do so. I know _I_ couldn't, even out of
> morbid curiosity. Sure, I could be forced into it, but voluntarily?
> Nope.
What about being fucked, though? Or receiving oral gratification from
someone willing to give it (for whatever reason)? I'm sure everyone's
heard at least one high school rumor involving football team circle
jerk's after practice. Isn't that a form of homosexual sex?
Despite what gets talked about in public, there IS more to gay sex than
anal sex.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: Re: marbles don't add up?
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:56:50
EID:6977 22747700
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JB>> You were and still are both wrong in the case of 'real things'
JB>> being 'counted.'
> This from a man who can't add up his marbles!
Think maybe he's losing them?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: CE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:00:24
EID:9d8a 22747800
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JB>> (I could use this one to resolve your issues with the B/W marbles....
JB>> I may try that....) (*G*)
RH>> Don't bother. It's still wrong.
> (*chuckle*) So long as there's an instance in which one, or the other,
> method doesn't quite work, there's a question: _why_ doesn't it work?
But it does work. You're just either very very slow to catch on, or else
you're being deliberately obstinate.
> That provides interesting games to play with people who think the
thing
> _always_ works, but who, like Fundies, deny the existence of the
> counterexample.
Your counterexample is flawed. I think this has only been shown at least
a dozen times since I joined the echo, and that can't have been more than
a month ago.
> In the last analysis, it's a matter of conflict between a math system
> _with_ a 'zero block' and one without one. I choose to explore the
> differences, is all.
The difference between your system and real math is that real math makes
sense.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 27
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: counting on a number line
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:10:00
EID:aeba 22747940
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> Either of these methods of counting is asymmetrical (internally
> inconsistent):
> Problem: x = -3 + 6
> Blocks: (*=counting entity's start-point; %=same, end-point.)
> 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5
> * 1 2 3 4 5 6
> %
> 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 %
> *
> In the first case, the counter does not start counting with the block
> he's on, BUT he does END counting on the block he's on for the answer.
> In the second case, the counter _does_ start counting with the block
> he's on, BUT must use the block one block _beyond_ the one he finishes
> on as the answer.
> That is, _either_way_, the counter is being inconsistent, starting
with
> the NEXT block but ending ON a (the answer) block, --OR-- starting
ON a
> block but not ending ON a (the answer) block.
John, if you shift the number line up by 5, and repeat the experiment,
you're screwed. Try it with me here.
Problem: x = 2 + 6
Blocks: (* = counting entity's start-point; %=same, end-point)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
* 1 2 3 4 5 6
%
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 2 3 4 5 6 %
*
Is the counter being inconsistent above? I don't use zero anywhere in the
problem, and yet by your reckoning, I'm still off. What's 2+6, John?
RC>> As opposed to what? Some sort of math game that is "necessary?"
> Without that zero block, the above counter is consistent (symmetrical
> in his behaviour), since he both starts _and_ends_ ON a block, and
the
> answer is correct.
John, move anywhere else on the numberline, try your experiment again, and
see what happens. You're going to be off by 1.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:13:08
EID:14cc 227479a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> On 17 Mar 97, Roger Hunter wrote:
-=>> Quoting John Brawley to Robert Curry <=-
JB>> Except it doesn't, no matter how many times you complain that it does.
JB>> How many blocks between -5 and +5, inclusive of the end blocks?
JB>> [-5][-4][-3][-2][-1][0][+1][+2][+3][+4][+5]
JB>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
JB>> Eleven? (Wrong-O.)
JB>> Works _without_ a 'zero block,' not _with_ a zero block.
JB>> You can bitch 'till doomsday; it won't change this fact.
RH>> Wrong-O my ass. There ARE 11, you just counted them above.
> And that's wrong in some cases. One such: how many marbles are there
> from -5 to -1, inclusive of the ends? (5) How many from +1 to +5,
> inclusive? (5) What's 5+5? (10) How many marbles do you count
when
> you lay them all down in a line and count from one end to the other?
> (10) Now stick your zero marble in the line. How many now? (?!?)
> (11)
> You dispute this?
Nope. This is the first thing you've gotten right since I've gotten here.
> 5 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 5
> 'a' 1 2 3 4 5 6
> 'b' 6 5 4 3 2 1
> *---------*
What's 2+6, John?
By your method:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 2 3 4 5 6
*---------*
Does 2+6=7 John?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: CE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:18:30
EID:550f 22747a40
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> It's interesting, though, from a human psychology point of view.
I
> use 0 as an origin _equally_ as much as I use 1 as an origin simply
> because I'm a computer programmer -- one of the best, in fact. }:-}
> When my sons and I are stopped at a train crossing, we count the cars.
> I'm often one off because I often inadvertantly start from 0. It's
a
> habit.
I sympathise. I've been using C for so long that I start counting everything
at 0 when I'm not thinking about it.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:24:54
EID:8668 22747b00
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KD>> You might be surprised how little is about "gay rights" and how much
is
KD>> worshipping God in the same way you would. Or close enough that you'd
KD>> see that they aren't so different after all.
> Most gays that believe they are Christians do not have the same basic
> beliefs that I do. THis isn't even about gay rights, but just that
> the theology generally is very different.
In what way do the basic beliefs of gay Christians differ from your
beliefs, aside from the topic of homosexuality?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: ACLU News 01-30-97: Chri
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:33:42
EID:3d40 22747c20
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> I am very much for the Constitution, but that has nothing to do with
> "separation of church and state." If it does, could you please show
> me where those words appear in it?
Amendment 1 serves nicely. All people shall enjoy freedom of religion.
That includes freedom from it. The 14th Amendment has been used to apply
the first amendment to the states as well. That is, no state government
may enforce or endorse a specific religion.
> People are told they can't have nativity scenes on govt. ownded
> property, can't have student led prayers in schools, can't even have
> the ten commandments in court rooms. Don't you see religious freedom
> being violated here?
No. What I can see is my freedom of religion being violated with those
things being endorsed. Or the freedom of religion of any person not sharing
the faith being endorsed.
Would you sit back and not complain if you walked into a court room, and
the judge had you sworn in on a Qu'ran and required all who entered his
courtroom to bow to Mecca on the way in? Would you not raise holy hell(tm)
if the school your kids went to required student-led Islamic chants?
> Apparently, you don't know the type. If it is against the
> Constitution, no matter state or federal, it cannot be done.
Endorsing the religious beliefs of any religion is against the Constitution.
You lose.
> And I do not wish for alternative religions or any other groups to
> have less rights than I do. In fact, I would be very willing to stand
> up for someone's rights, if it meant their liberties were being
> threatened.
Does that include endorsing same-sex marriage? As a member of the Church
of Freethought (which is a real church in Dallas, btw), my religious rights
are being infringed upon because my religious marriage is not given the
same protection that other religion's marriages are. The same goes for any
same-sex couple handfast under Wicca or married by in a Reformed Synagogue.
> ANd as I said, the govt. has too much of a say in how churches are
> run, yet I do not see the fictional "seperation of church and state,"
> being talked about with that.
Fictional? Go look up a legal proceeding called the Limmon Test.
> In fact, wouldn't incorporated churches be a violation of "seperation
> of church and state?"
Nope. Already, separation of church and state is being violated all over
the place. From "In God we Trust" on the money supply to tax-exempt status
for churches.
> One way that the govt. has too much of a say, is that a minister of
a
> church is not supposed to make political statements.
How is that giving the government too much say in what goes on? Churches
are tax-exempt. Political machines are not. When pastors and ministers
begin using their pulpits to lecture on politics, they cross the boundary
from churches into political organisations, but still receive tax-exemption.
Thus, to prevent churches from abusing their power, they are required not
to speak out on political issues.
If you want your minister to have the right to speak about politics, go
right ahead and get your church to forego it's tax-exempt status. I'll
be more than willing to let your pastor preach politics then.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 20 Mar 97 16:03:38
EID:4793 22748060
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 27
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> Since I've been reading this echo, I have noticed that the loud-mouths
> who are attacking the Christian faith generally post interchangeably.
> Not one of you responds to anything directed at you...always waiting
> for someone else to jump in and bail you out. I've had enough of
your
> grade school bully tactics. If none of you has the intelligence
and
> bravery to face off against an opponent...ON YOUR OWN...the group
of
> you should just shut up and pay attention to those of us who are
> teaching the truth...
0) I answer every post directed at me that I find reasonably intelligent
to warrant a reply.
1) I assist in the discussions of others, irrespective of who is on what
side, when I see a lack of fact hit that I can correct.
2) I am more than willing to face off against you in a 1-on-1, whether or
not anyone else opts for the challenge, but I am also reasonably sure
that most of the other non-Christians here will be willing to do the
same.
3) You aren't "teaching truth," George. You're presenting your side of a
debate. I am also doing the same. On a purely objective level, you are
no more "right" than I am, because you are speaking from a subjective
belief system, as am I. The main difference is that I am willing to
admit the subjectivity of my beliefs, while you deny yours.
> I challenge you to select one spokesman, and have him post
a
> topic to discuss...then one of the Christians reading this echo will
> step forward and the two protagonists will conduct the
> discussion....everyone else just reads and sits on their hands...no
> butting in, etc...If you aren't too much a gaggle of girlish cowards
> to face up to people convinced of the Truth of Christ's message and
> divinity... George Harper
Certainly. Here is the topic I wish to discuss:
BACKGROUND:
Every system is based on a set of untestable axioms. For the system to
hold, these axioms must be accepted without evidence, without proof, and
with no hope of external testing. Once this set of axioms is granted,
then the system has a defined border. All statements that contradict any
axiom in the set are false within the system, but not necessarily outside
the system. Any statement that does not depend on any axiom in the set
has indeterminate truth value within the system. Conversely, any statement
which depends solely on an axiom in the set is false outside the system,
and any statement that does depend on an axiom in the set has indeterminate
truth value outside the system.
TOPIC:
Resolved: That the Christian belief system depends upon the axiom "The
Christian God exists."
George, if you're up to this topic, then by all means return fire on it.
Or, if you would prefer to choose a champion for this contest, then by all
means find yourself one. I'll pick one person that answers this post, and
respond to it. You may, if you wish, tell me to whom I'm supposed to reply.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 20 Mar 97 01:37:02
EID:38aa 22740ca0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 333094be
-> On 19 Mar 97 03:56:34, Mark O'Neill got back to Rod Swift
MO>> But not before clicking his heels together three times.
RS> He's a FRIEND OF DOROTHY? *rofl!*
MO> He puts me in mind of the scarecrow in many ways. They both lack any
MO> fucking brains. ;-)
Thanks!
... You remind me of Scarecrow: You don't have any fucking brains.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: George Harper
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 20 Mar 97 08:58:26
EID:61a9 22744740
MSGID: 1:104/447 28090b37
TID: GE 1.1+
RH> If you believe what you just wrote then the only thing worse than
RH> your "god" is any asshole like yourself who worships such a monster.
Wrong...those who deny the opportunity of cleansing from original sin
to a child are FAR worse than the one who announces that this is the
result of killing an unborn child.
RH> Think what you're saying; a merciful heavenly father burns babies
RH> in eternal fires for a sin they did not commit. How can you possibly
RH> believe anything so monstrous?
Original sin is placed on us all by God as the mark of humanity. The
person at fault here is Eve, the original woman. Without her acceptance
of the lies of the serpent, Adam and Eve would still be living in the
Garden of Eden, which was God's intent. Because she ate the fruit,
and seduced Adam into copying her, we all pay the price. However,
God, in His Mercy, has given us a means to make up for being children of
Eve....and that means is what you, and all the other pro-abortionists
are guilty of denying the aborted ones. Small wonder you want to
deny the truth of God's existence, shouting for/demanding "evidence"
and refusing such evidence when presented...any other course of action
would mean that YOU have to accept the fact that you are baby-killers
and will have to account for those deaths...
BTW: aren't you afraid that my thinking may contaminate your smug stupidity?
You are the first one to reply in person to a post addressed to you in this
echo...generally even when the post is from one of your fellow apologists.z
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: George Harper
|To: Becke Boyer
|Sub: RE: ARROGANCE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 08:58:27
EID:0acc 22744740
MSGID: 1:104/447 28090b38
TID: GE 1.1+
BB> Who the hell are you to be in a position to determine what is in
BB> another person's best interests? Since when are you on some moral high
BB> ground that allows you to do so. Just because you believe in a myth,
BB> and decide to live your life according to said myth doesn't mean the
BB> rest of us are obligated to do so.
BB> AKA Pascal's Wager. It's already been debunked. What if you're
BB> worshipping the wrong god?
What if I'm *NOT*? Are you ready to accept the results of THAT
possibility? You can "debunk" all you want...I AM ready to face
the results of my choice of belief system's being wrong...because
that would mean mere cessation of existence, with nothing to cause me
to regret having made my choice. However...if *I* am right, what
lies ahead for you and other like-thinkers is really enough to
justify constant and frantic denial on your part, given your stupidity
preventing you from altering that belief system in time...
Now the ball is in your court...answer this personally...without resorting
to vulgarities if your vocabulary allows...if you dare...
... "Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again." - L. Long
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: ...
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:15:38
EID:cd8d 227469e0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33318cda
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 770d6974
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Martin Goldberg said this about ...
G'day Martin,
[Jelly]
MG>>> sacrfice of his "death" was a pitiful nothing. How do you
MG>>> answer these charges?
RS>> ... why, by sticking his fingers in his ears and screaming...
RS>> IS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
MG> Jelly, doesn't answer many of my posts these days. I wonder why.
He seems very selective with what he replies to. For example, a list of
quotes that I threw back at him the other day was only partially answered.
The one that I really wanted an answer to was omitted. Hmm...
*** Area: HOLYSMOKE Date: 11 Mar 97 9:54:03
*** From: Mark O'Neill (3:640/375.1)
*** To : Ken Young
*** Subj: Cracker Barrel boycott
Like making a complete and utter dick of yourself?
"Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young
/\\ark...
... When money is involved, all are of the same religion. -- Ken Wiens
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: helpless moron from oz
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:43:55
EID:4aa3 22747d60
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33319204
REPLY: 1:229/622 332d4338
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Dave Hamilton said this about helpless moron
from oz
G'day Dave,
RS>> ... I was always under the impression that our total cost of
RS>> living were much less than the US, or so sayeth the OECD.
DH> How much for a liter of gasoline in US dollars?
At the bowser today unleaded fuel is selling for about 64.5 cents a litre.
The current exchange rate has the Australian dollar at roughly 78 US
cents.
64.5 x .78 = 50.31 US cents a litre. This is in a capital city (as well
as being on the East coast), though and natually the more isolated people
are the more expensive it is.
RS>> mention that we have cute animals that also double as tasty food? :)
DH> From what I see on the discovery channel, almost everything
DH> that flies, walks, crawls, swims, and is even planted, tries
DH> to kill you.
Good tucker though. There's always plenty to eat if you live on a large
property, pork in particular. Mind you, drenching a wild pig for worms is
something I never considered fun. ;-)
/\\ark...
... ARRRRRGGGHHH!!!! ... Tension breaker, had to be done.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: flood
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:30:55
EID:a3e0 22739bc0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33313789
REPLY: 1:221/1503 332CC5D9
Ronald Vass said "flood" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> Destruction myths _are_ all alike, yes. They are also alike in
DM>their tendency to expand: Atlantis from one island to an entire
DM>continent, the Flood from one river valley in southern Iraq to the
DM>entire globe. Fun stories have a life of their own.
DM> BH> I also find the existance of quick frozen woolly mammoths quite
a
DM> BH> wonder.
DM> I do not doubt that you do.
RV> Where did this ever come from. I can remember reading it somewhere
RV> , book?, mamy,many,many,many moons ago. But what book was it ?
RV> Reguards >> "woolly mammoths" <<
RV> Sandra P. the local JW buys this story also. Is there a FAQ
RV> debunking it ? if so , please post it and i will cross post
RV> it local.
I don't have any documentation on frozen mammoths, but I suspect
that it would be easy to find. Quite a few of them have washed out
of river banks and whatnot in Siberia. I believe that one explorer's
Club (or somesuch) dinner about a century ago had mammoth on the
menu from one of the finds. I have heard some talk of atrtempting to
clone material from the next one.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:34:46
EID:afff 22739c40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3331378a
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 332e7cb9
Judith Bandsma said "Accepting Reality" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> 12-year-old rape victim, to which you either said "yes" or
DM> evaded answering with the fundy shuffle. In this context,
JB> He not only replied 'yes' in that context, but stated that she
JB> was having the abortion because she couldn't tell the truth
JB> about what SHE had done.
Ah, those little sluts, tempting their fathers into sin!
Actually Ken has confirmed my recollection and repeated several
times that _any_ woman (including 12-year-old rape victims)
convicted of aborting her fetus should be executed, so the accuracy
of the assessment is no longer an issue.
What gets me is how a guy can present a moral stance about as
appetizing as a used condom sinking in a leper's cesspool from its
overload of snail vomit, and _then_ wonder why so few people choose
to accept his bullshit religion. He is really clueless.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:45:27
EID:d625 22739da0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3331378b
REPLY: 1:207/212 9c62fd11
Karen Davis said "Accepting Reality" to Ken Wiens, adding:
KW> with her boyfriend. At any rate, what justification is
KW> there for making the unborn child die because someone
KW> had illicit sex? That should be called murder, pure and
KD> And what justification is there for making the woman die
KD> because she had sex?
Ken is probably pissed off because she didn't have it with HIM.
(Given _that_ option, many women might even _prefer_ death),
Later, you say to Stuart Lumgair:
SL> Most food cows, beef as opposed to dairy, are not artificially
SL> inseminated. On the other hand, most dairy cows are. My
SL> observations may not be valid for your area.
KD> Why would that be, Stuart? Have dairy cows been bred so that
KD> breeding is more difficult?
I expect that quality control in the matter of milk production
is at issue here: all cows make meat, and among beef cattle any
reasonably beefy bull will do to sire beefy offspring, but only a
very few strains have the practically guaranteed capacity to produce
x pounds of milk every day for 280+ days a year. The cows themselves
manage quite nicely to get it on with all sorts of bovine riff-raff
if they are not watched very carefully.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 05:35:47
EID:5022 22742c60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3331378c
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 332c71ac
Easing the path for mankind, KY said "FREEDOM OF CHOICE" to Becke
Boyer, adding:
BB> No more awkward than heterosexual sex, Jelly. Or do you think
BB> oral and anal sex between heterosexuals is unnatural as well?
KY> I won't make a judgement on oral sex, as I am not sure. But
KY> anal sex would be very unnatural, yes.
You don't get out very much, do you?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Arrogant Apologies
|Date: 20 Mar 97 11:27:05
EID:4a0f 22745b60
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333169f3
REPLY: 1:104/447 27171fd8
George Harper said "Arrogance" to Don Martin,
adding:
DM> So they would have us suppose. I don't imagine that you
DM> have any evidence for the existence of this god person about
DM> you anywhere? Establish _that_, and _then_ you may proceed
DM> with your murmurations about "truth".
GH> I doubt that you would accept any form of proof I might proffer...
GH> no matter how convincing, so why bother to ask?
Not being able to read very well, because of a general
lack of acquaintance with the English language, fundies
invariably talk about "proof" when asked for _evidence_. Why
should you be any different?
Rather that _ever_ actually attempting to provide any
evidence, fundies invariably evade the issue by simply
claiming that their trove of evidence will not be believed
by the person requesting it. Why should you be any
different?
The really amusing part, is that they all seem to
believe that this tired trick will work. Why should you be
any different? Particularly as you would appear to have been
turning such tired tricks for years.
If you have some "convincing" evidence, post it and try
me. Otherwise cut out the bullshit.
GH> If you are dis-inclined to believe that the existence of the world
GH> and the universe as proof of God's reality, what can ANY person
GH> offer that would make a dent in your stupidity?
Try this:
Personally, I have said many times that I would welcome ANY
evidence of the existence of any god, and I have even specified
indirect evidence that would be quite convincing, not only to
me, but (I suspect) to all the wicked atheists here: the residue
of the Noachan Flood. It avoids the problem of "how can there be
physical evidence for a spiritual being?" by focussing on one
instance in which that spiritual being supposedly interacted
physically with the physical world in a way that would have
produced distinctive physical consequences. While we have seen
fundies claim that their god is so deceitful as to cover his
tracks, I, for one, would presume that such a dishonest being is
unworthy of being taken seriously, much less of worship.
I do not concern myself here with the issue of the needed
two additional hydrospheres of water and its drainage out of
earth's gravity well, nor with the necessary consequences
resulting therefrom by operation of the laws of physics: the
atmospheric pressure resulting from a "vapor canopy" that would
prevent the existence of life as we know it, the heat release
from the condensation of that much water that would be
sufficient to melt lead anywhere in the atmosphere, etc. are
very serious impediments to the veracity of the story, but most,
if not all, fundies lack sufficient knowledge of physics to be
able to follow the reasoning. It only confuses them, leading
them to drag out yet another version of the Deceitful God, who,
they claim, sets the laws of physics aside his wonders to
perform. Instead, I simply take the Genesis account at its face
value, looking at the effects that much water falling at that
rate would inescapably have upon the face of the earth.
We have an account of a global flood directly produced by
Yahweh in the Bible. Given the fact that we have information,
presumably from a source inspired by omniscience, of the extent
of the flood ("over the highest mountains," or roughly 30,000
feet above present sea level) and of the time of the rain (40
days and 40 nights = 40 24-hour days = 960 hours), it is easy to
calculate the rate of the rainfall: 30,000/960 = 31.25 feet of
water fell per hour. That is little better than six inches of
rainfall per minute.
I would think that "gullywasher" fails to do this rate
justice, inasmuch as that term is applied to rainfalls of one or
two inches per hour. Suffice it to say that this rain would wash
away pretty much any particles smaller than Volkswagens and
deposit all of this in a single stratum covering the low-lying
areas world-wide.
We know from geology that floods leave evidence in direct
proportion to their size (this stratum would, for instance, be
far thicker than any other ever created and would cover all the
area on earth with its thickness varying in inverse proportion
to altitude), and we further know from the mechanics of
disposition of suspended solids in fluids the type and extent of
the stratum that would be laid down by a global flood. Those
larger particles would lie at the bottom of the stratum, with
progressively smaller bits covering them. In addition to that,
the contents of that stratum, the remains of ALL creatures
mingled together under optimal conditions for fossilization
(heavy sedimentation at great depths, with the finest materials
thickly sealing the top) are known: in short, a universal unique
event would produce a universal unique outcome--a stratum like
no other in the geologic column.
Such a stratum would furnish perfectly good indirect
evidence for the existence of this Yahweh person, just as
tracings on a photographic plate tell us of subatomic particles
or the behavior of objects in space tells us of the existence of
enormous gravitational forces only explicable by the presence of
a black hole.
So show us this stratum. That would be evidence.
GH> I will sit back and wait, secure in the knowledge that you *WILL*
GH> one day learn the truth, and - unfortunately for you - that you
GH> will live a LOOOOONG time regretting it...an eternity, one might
GH> say...you might want to ask your survivors to pack some asbestos
GH> undies in your coffin... hehehehe
Until you have some evidence for the existence of your
imaginary superfriend, this claim about my future is
empty. Your attempts at making smart-assed comments might
be improved by some originality, but then, why should you be
any different from all the other fundies?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: David Worrell
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 20 Mar 97 11:26:00
EID:6496 22745b40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 333169f4
REPLY: 1:123/67.7 332ea5fe
David Worrell said "Accepting Reality" to Don Martin,
adding:
DC>> How many 12 year old rape victims did you execute during
DC>> your sabbatical?
KW>> As is typical you liberals have to distort the truth to
KW>> make your view look good. To begin with most abortions
KW>> are not a result of someone getting raped.
DM> While that generalization is quite true, you were, if
DM> memory serves,
DW> I don't think Dan is a liberal, actually.
Compared to Ken Weins?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Jason Harmon
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: Re: HE DOES IT AGAIN!
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:31:16
EID:f13a 22747be0
MSGID: 1:3652/1 3331B3BD
-=> Quoting Roger Hunter to Katherine Wintersnight <=-
RH> Not only that, she was a virgin _after_ the birth. Top that one!
RH>
RH> World's first rubber hymen.
According to the apocryphal Gospel of James, the reason for Mary's
eternal virginity was the "fact" that Jesus was not born like any
other baby. He apparantly had a transporter beam with him.
GOSPEL OF JAMES: CHAPTER 19
And they stood in the place of the cave: and behold a bright
cloud overshadowing the cave. And the midwife said: My soul is
magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen marvellous things:
for salvation is born unto Israel. And immediately the cloud
withdrew itself out of the cave, and a great light appeared in the
cave so that our eyes could not endure it. And by little and little
that light withdrew itself until the young child appeared: and it
went and took the breast of its mother Mary. And the midwife cried
aloud and said: Great unto me to-day is this day, in that I have
seen this new sight.
The fun part comes when this midwife runs outside to tell a friend
about this miracle. The other woman comes in and attempts to "thrust
in her finger" so she can "search the parts." She tries this, and
her hand starts "dropping off as if burned with fire."
Now you know why Mary was always a virgin. Would you try and stick
something in there?
... "There is no cause for alarm! ... But there probably will be." - Brain
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
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|From: Jason Harmon
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: ...
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:31:16
EID:69e5 22747be0
MSGID: 1:3652/1 3331B3BE
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Jason Harmon <=-
KY> Enduring pain can be a sacrifice too.
JH> Don't you think an omnipotent being could deal with a few hours
JH> of pain?
KY> Yep.. But He was not in an omnipotent form. He came here as a human
KY> being.
He surely could have drawn on those same sources of power he used
to perform his miracles.
Anyway, Jesus only sacrificed a few days of his life. Was Judas not
the biggest martyr, since he lost his life and his reputation?
... Avert your eyes, children! He may take on other forms!
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
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|From: Jason Harmon
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:31:16
EID:4425 22747be0
MSGID: 1:3652/1 3331B3BF
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Jason Harmon <=-
KY> Oh, silly me.. And here, all this time, I thought it was when they
KY> took prayer out of the schools.
JH> When did they take prayer out of schools? Why, just today I passed
JH> someone praying in the hallway. Or by "taking prayer out of the
JH> schools" do you mean "stopped FORCING prayer in the schools"?
KY>
KY> No, I mean ORGANIZED prayer.
And what's wrong with taking that out of schools? Can't students do
it on their own time?
... Errata: "In the beginning" should read "Catch this shit..."
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
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|From: Jason Harmon
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Re: Quote!r
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:31:16
EID:6518 22747be0
MSGID: 1:3652/1 3331B3C0
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Ken Young <=-
Considering you're talking with Ken Young, I thought you might
be interested in this statement about the existence of hell he
made while you were absent:
= Area: FIDONET-Religious Debate Echo ========================================
Msg#: 29 Sent Date: 02-09-97 06:42:54
From: David Worrell Read: Yes Replied:
No
To: Ken Young Mark:
Subj: Why do you NEED to be saved?
==============================================================================
07 Feb 97 00:26, Ken Young wrote to Martin Goldberg:
KY> Also, and this is not proof, but rather an interesting possibility,
KY> there have been many to say they heard torturous screams of agony
KY> when they dug too deep in the earth.. Now, if that is so, could it
KY> be Hell? If not, what are those sounds coming from?
==============================================================================
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#18)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 18:57:43
EID:b95f 22739720
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7727d882
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 332a9776
KW> I most certainly said yes, a 12 year old rape victim who
KW> willfully has her unborn child aborted should be tried and
KW> if found guilty executed. I made that very clear in my
KW> initial answer when I said the only exception I believe
KW> in is to save the life of the mother.
After denying that you said this, you finally admit it.
Saved to disk, Whines. Another example of xtian charity. ROTFL!
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: Educational Experienc
|Date: 19 Mar 97 18:59:39
EID:a934 22739760
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7727e02f
REPLY: 1:104/447 261564e6
GH> The Flood: Noah took several HUNDRED years building the Ark,
Non biblcial evidence that humans live hundreds of years please.
GH> The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil: God made it and put
Non biblcial evidence for a god, eden, or a tree of life, please.
GH> Sodom and Gomorrah: Lot and his family were given the
GH> opportunity to
Non biblcial evidence for the story of S&G, please.
GH> For your information, the disciples asked Christ why He
GH> didn't just
GH> go into a certain city and perform miracles, thereby causing
Non biblical evidence for miracles, please.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:02:17
EID:204c 22739840
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7727e462
MG>> How many states have sodomy laws?
DR> None, that I'm aware of. Many (most?) have anti-sodomy laws.
Here. Pick some more nits.
DR> Why, are you thinking of confessing?
Er...sodomy is not sex acts between men. It is an "unnatural act" between
any two persons. Some states have criminal penalties for adult hetero couples
who perfrom oral or anal sex in hotel rooms.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Found on the net
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:03:49
EID:9c8a 22739860
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 7727e740
DR> does this is "Cybersitter." People who buy the software
DR> are not told that it will only show rightwing political
DR> sites.
This, however, is a joke. I gave the wrong key word before. I think I
searched "fundamentalist" to get this, however, if you search Yahoo with
"netmoses" you'll likely find the site.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:15:23
EID:1028 227399e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77280090
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 332c6ed4
RH>> The flood of Noah is scientifically impossible, and that's a
RH>> fact.
KY> Please explain further. Why is a world wide flood impossible?
Becasue there is not enough water. For one thing.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: RE: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:15:53
EID:cf2b 227399e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77280213
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 332c71ac
BB>> sex between heterosexuals is unnatural as well?
KY> I won't make a judgement on oral sex, as I am not sure. But anal
KY> sex would be very unnatural, yes.
So, would you like to see laws passed that prohibit anal sex between heteros?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: He Does It Again!
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:16:36
EID:063e 22739a00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77280442
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 332c738c
KY> Nope. I am saying that she got pregnant without having any
KY> sexual relations.
C'mon, Jelly. Your Book of Lies says that Jesus was the "son of god".
That means your god was his father. How did Mary get preggers?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Reading Incomprehensi
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:17:42
EID:e6cf 22739a20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77280c7b
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 332c786a
KY> Yes, and tests also showed NutraSweet to be harmful as well. But
KY> seeing how we do not use common sense, guess they chose to ignore
KY> those tests.
You give enough water to people, and it will kill them.
This is the usual black and white thinking we get from fundies like you.
You think that a test like this would give an answer of "100% safe and effective".
Nothing like that exists. Even wholly natural foods have some bad effects
on some of us.
So I guess, that these scientists used their knowledge to decide that the
risk to the public was not all that great. The huge number of people using
Nutrasweet have no problems with it. And the benefit to diabetics is immense.
You wnat to see it banned from ignorance and your attempted defense of an
ignorant statement. Btw, you never did answer my question to you. What
is the problem with irradiated foodsw?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:21:16
EID:b95f 22739aa0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77280fe6
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 332d5c04
KW> If you are stupid enough to require an answer I guess I'll
KW> have to humour you. Answer? None.
Now tellus how many you would have liked to have seen.
In other words, if there were ten 12 year old rpe victims that were pregnant
and aborted, how many of them would you like to see executed?
--- msgedsq 2.1
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sq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 19 Mar 97 19:22:15
EID:b95f 22739ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 772815f5
REPLY: 1:103/550.0 332d5c42
MG>>Fuck your bigotted bible, Whines.
KW> Thank you for summing up your level of intelligence.
KW> Responses like this just demonstrate for the whole
KW> world to see how truly childish and immature you
KW> really are.
Thanks you for another Fundy Shuffle.
Here's the quiz....
1. What is the evidence for your god?
2. What is the evidence for a savior?
3. What is the evidence for heaven?
4. What is the evidence for hell?
5. What is the evidence for miracles?
6. Would you like to show some xtian charity by offing some 12 year old
rape victims that had their fetuses aborted?
7. Where is your evidence that evolution never occured? (second request)
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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PATH: 124/9005
|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: J.J. NEEDS TO BE
|Date: 19 Mar 97 10:56:00
EID:5dfd 22735700
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 333133cd
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Darryl Gonzalez cast J.J. NEEDS TO BE at Dan Ceppa
.. and all hell broke loose.
DC> Then, why, Darryl, Darryl and your other brother Darryl,
DC> can't your god do a thing about evil? Isn't he supposed
DC> to be the creator of everthing? Why did the he create
DC> something that he can't handle?
DC>
DG> My God can do and has done something about evil: He sent His Son,
DG> Jesus Christ, to defeat Satan, by dying on the cross at Calvary to be
DG> the perfect sacrifice for our sins, and to rise from the dead, which
He
DG> did. God did not create death---death entered the world as a result
of
DG> Adam's disobedience (Romans 6). God DID create men and women with FREE
DG> WILL. We can choose evil, or we can choose God. Dan, which do YOU
DG> choose? (Not choosing is the same as choosing evil.)
Wyld, Weaver or Wyrm - which for you?
And not choosing is the same as choosing the Wyrm.
--Garou
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... OPERATOR! Trace this call and tell me where I am.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 19 Mar 97 11:17:01
EID:b499 22735a20
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 333133ce
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, John Brawley cast MILLENNIUM LUNACY at Roger Hunter
.. and all hell broke loose.
Hey, John.
JB> You'll note my TOP line, a _discrete_ line, has no "Zero BLOCK" at
JB> all. Calling end 1 BCE-to-end 1 CE a "zero year" is exactly equivalent
JB> to sticking a "zero [block]" into my top series, which is _ludicrous_.
JB> I think you keep wanting to call the first year the "zero year"
JB> because you keep wanting to ONLY COUNT FORWARDS. That is, if you were
JB> in the year five BCE, you'd face forwards and count, and you'd find
JB> yourself trying to count forwards the whole time. You can't DO that
JB> with BCE/CE years. You have to count _backwards_ while you're in BCE,
JB> then when you reach the end of 1 BCE, you have to _spin_around_ 180ų
JB> and start counting forwards.
This whole thing is going to be half a bitch, I realise, when the
timeline of the game I'm running gets around to this era. While the
_players_ don't have to worry about it (for all intents and
purposes, they'll be dealing with the local calendars, referring to
years as, say, year 10 of so-and-so's reign), I, as the person
running it, have to keep track of what year it is on the modern
calendar for historical purposes.
Since it is an interesting time period and place in history, I'll
likely be putting the player's characters in the middle east, under
Roman rule, at this point in time when the chronology comes up. The
question is: Should I simply not worry about the time switch between
BCE and CE (BC and AD) and gloss over it if anyone asks, consider it
to go from 1 BC to 1 AD, or stick in an extra year (0)? Given that
the characters are mortal, and I have to be aware of what age they
are at the time (there are rules for rolling dice to see what
happens to a character after a certain age; one number, if you roll
it, means they die before the next spring) and that I'm using the help
of certain programmes to work out sun and moon times/phases
(important this game, especially the latter), I really should know
what I should do when the situation arises. Of course, I could skip
t completely and, say, jump from some time in the BCs to some time
in the early ADs, but that'll depend on what I come up with when I
do some in-depth research on the time period. The stupid thing is,
one programme I use DOES register the year 0, and gives me all kinds
of data (whether it's totally accurate or not doesn't really matter,
so long as I can say, yes, the sun is up, and yes, the moon is
half-full tonight, but you can't see it yet - I could make all that
stuff up, but oddly enough it's more trouble than simply keeping a
record of what the programme says); the other one chokes
on it, and complains that the year can't be 0.
--Wolfie
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... Without fools there would be no wisdom.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Mary Smith
|Sub: RE: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:17:12
EID:158f 22748a20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 18 Mar 97 03:55pm, MARY SMITH wrote to BECKE BOYER:
BB>> KY> I would think gays would want to switch because homosexuality
i
BB>> KY> unnatural, and even the positions at least with male homosexual
BB>> KY> must be kind of awkward. Besides, you seem to think that gays
BB>> KY> persecuted against. And who wants that?
BB>>
BB>> No more awkward than heterosexual sex, Jelly. Or do you think oral
a
BB>> sex between heterosexuals is unnatural as well?
BB>>
BB>> Becke
MS>
MS> WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH RELIGION DEBATE? OR DO I HAVE MY
MS> CONFERENCES ALL MESSED UP? I HOPE NOT CAUSE THIS IS MORE LIKE A SEX
MS> CONFERENCE THEN A BIBLE/RELIGION CONFERENCE.
MS> PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I HAVE MY CONFERENCES ALL MESSED UP.
First of all, turn off your caps key. The shouting is very annoying and
a
strain on the eyes.
Secondly, I'd advise you spend more time reading the echo before jumping
in
with comments like the above and making yourself look silly. This echo is
basically a "religious food fight echo". On any given day, you'll see a
multitude of subjects here. Most pertain to religion in one way or another.
Homosexuality is being discussed because of the homophobia of a few of the
fundies here.
If you're looking for shiny, happy Christian talk, you've come to the wrong
place. Bunnies and light can be found two doors to the left.
Becke
... "Baldrick, you have the intellectual capacity of a dirty potato."
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 245
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Mary Smith
|Sub: RE: DRIVING MR. DAISY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:17:13
EID:d91e 22748a20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 18 Mar 97 03:57pm, MARY SMITH wrote to BECKE BOYER:
BB>> KY>> Rather, what I am speaking of is those gays that make a scene
BB>> KY>> about being gay
BB>>
BB>> RC>> I have no idea what you mean. Could you elaborate? What kind
o
BB>> RC>> "scene" do you mean?
BB>>
BB>> KY> Check out the gay marches or rallies that have been shown on th
BB>> KY> and you will get an idea what I mean. You must admit, some do
BB>> KY> confrontational about it.
MS>
MS> Shouldn't this be in GAYLINK?
Why?
Becke
... "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 245
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: RE: ANOTHER ONE!
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:17:13
EID:1d1a 22748a20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 17 Mar 97 07:19pm, J.J. HITT wrote to ALAN HESS:
JH> On Mar 07 16:44 97, Alan Hess of 1:261/1000 wrote:
xx>> think that God is not alive.You may belive in the big bang
xx>> theory is far as the universe is concerned,but as yourself
xx>> this, how could one man Jesus Christ have the miracle
xx>> healing powers in the Bible if the Bible mentions the
xx>> places of jerusalem,isreal,and so forth. So if you do not
xx>> believe in a higher power, and we are only flesh and blood
xx>> of this earth,please explain to me why we have found
xx>> pieces of Noah's Ark, the shroud of Jesus' execution and
xx>> other items that is mentioned in the Bible. if you would
xx>> please respond to this inqiury so that we could discuss this
xx>> further and hear your expliantion.
JH> Yet,another,Xian,who,types,like,this.
Could it be the return of Marguerite Kendall? ;)
Becke
... Those darn Unitarians burned a question mark on my lawn!
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 245
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: RE: OOPS, CAUGHT AGAIN
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:17:14
EID:18ce 22748a20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 18 Mar 97 06:03pm, CHRISTOPHER HUGHES wrote to JIM STAAL:
KS>>> JS>JS> I can't become a b***h as you have done, no.
JS>>> RS> Oh my, what Christian love and tolerance. I know of thousands
of
JS>>> RS> places in the bible where Jesus was so loving and tolerant of
JS>>> RS> others to call them a "bitch!" :) :)
KS>>> JS>Where did I say 'bitch'?
KS>>> You tried to, above...except you weren't smart enough to spell it.
>> Nah. I can spell 'bitch' if I want to.
CH> Then do please tell us what word you were referring to, above, which
is
CH> five letters long, starts with b and ends with h. I can't think of many
CH> that would fit the context of the sentence besides "bitch."
Perhaps "butch"?
Becke
... Survival tip: Never MOON a werewolf.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 245
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: RE: DRIVING MR. DAISY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:17:15
EID:b5e9 22748a20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 17 Mar 97 10:06pm, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT:
KY> Debunked generally means one has been proven wrong. But I fail to see
KY> yet, any rallies for heterosexual special rights. They were anti-gay,
KY> but not necessarily for special rights for anyone. They simply do not
KY> want gays to have special rights.
You're not getting this through your thick skull, are you, Jelly? Gays don't
want _special_ rights, merely EQUAL rights.
Becke
... Pro-life? Then GET ONE and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MINE.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 245
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
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|From: Becke Boyer
|To: George Harper
|Sub: RE: ARROGANCE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:17:15
EID:b7cb 22748a20
PID: ProBoard 2.15 J
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8644
On 18 Mar 97 11:06pm, GEORGE HARPER wrote to DON MARTIN:
GH> I will sit back and wait, secure in the knowledge that you *WILL*
GH> one day learn the truth, and - unfortunately for you - that you
GH> will live a LOOOOONG time regretting it...an eternity, one might
GH> say...you might want to ask your survivors to pack some asbestos
GH> undies in your coffin... hehehehe
GH> God Bless...and be sure He *IS* watching YOU!
So your God *is* a stalker, eh?
Becke
... Hindsight: when you see what an ass you've been making of yourself.
* Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 245
* Silver Xpress V4.01
--- PB 2.15/FE 1.45a/IM 2.50
* Origin: Stimpy's Sandbox | Lemoyne, Pa | 717.730.8504 (1:270/722)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 140/3 143/1
SEEN-BY: 147/34 2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907
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SEEN-BY: 310/666 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 369/32
SEEN-BY: 371/42 377/86 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2
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|From: Brad Kennard
|To: All
|Sub: arguements?...my ears.
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:04:42
EID:46e7 22748895
So tell me, are you an unbeliever?
A spiritualist? Well me, I'm neither.
Wouldn't you like to know the truth?
Of what's out there? To have the proof?
Find out just which side your on..
Where would you end... in heaven or in hell.. or be annhilated?
There has got to be more to it than this
Or tell me why we exist?
I'd like to think that when I die
I get a chance, another time
To return and live again-
Reincarnate.
Playing the game
again, again, again
And again...........
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
* Origin: The Homestead (1:116/3000.0)
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|From: Brad Kennard
|To: All
|Sub: question for the ALL KNOWING
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:11:48
EID:9135 22748978
Since you people on here seem to know everything... well, you talk and
act as if you know everything. I have some simple questions.
I have currently read a book about Edgar Cayce, and I'm sure you know-
it-all scholars have done plenty of reading on him.
Do you have any opinions? What do skeptics say about him?
Also in the past I have done some reading on life after death. One amazing
book is Life After Life by Dr. Raymond Moody.
It seems like a quite convincing book.. but no.. athiests won't stand for
it. So how do you feel about it? The research seems to point out that
there is life after death. But is it all an illusion?
My own grandmother was in the hospital once because of a lung problem. One
time she told me that she saw some odd things that might have corresponded
with things that poeple who have had NDEs have experienced.
I also know a friend who's grand father has had a full NDE.
What is the explaination for that (from a skeptical point of view)?
And what about regression during hypnosis? How come it appears people have
had past lives?
And as for Cayce again, he cured thousands of sick people through going
into trance and viewing the "Akashic Records" (or possibly something else).
There are still people alive today who experienced the `miracles' that
Cayce did.
What about Astral projection? OBE's, NDE's? Magic(k)?
I would love to hear both skeptics, athiests, and religious people try
to give their piece about all these topics..
How else will I find out the truth without looking at things from every
aspect? Reading every book on the matter? Researching everything? Or actually
trying things like Astral projection or magick for myself?
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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|From: Joe Shedlock
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Death & Taxes
|Date: 20 Mar 97 01:44:58
EID:7c88 22740d80
MSGID: 1:116/17.0 333162bb
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to All on 16 Mar 97 18:03:34 <=-
RS> * When a Christian dies, the partner of that Christian has no
RS> right to be next of kin, nor be automatically treated under
RS> probate law
RS> * Christians don't have the right to determine the affairs of
RS> their dead partners, instead, the atheistic family of the
RS> deceased automatically is supreme in the matter
RS> * Christians have to worry about crossing state borders, where
RS> their legally valid wills, durable powers of attorney for
RS> medical care, etc, may not be valid
RS> Yes, Christians are *REALLY* persecuted in the United States.
Ok, you've substituted "Christians" for "gays" to make a point,
or several.
Let me ask you this: What information do you have concerning wills
made by gay people in the US not being honored, or being challenged
or set aside or whatever more frequently than the wills of "straight"
testators? I've heard claims that this is so, but would like to see
evidence and read more about this. I did look in the "Queer
Resources Directory" but was unable to find anything on this
specific topic.
RS> * Christians cannot claim the exemption from inheritance taxes
RS> that married godless atheists enjoy, and hence have to pay tax
RS> on the first $600,000 of an inheritance
I don't think this is correct as stated (even apart from the
"Christians/gays" substitution), or wonder what you mean by it.
Consider the following example(s):
John and Jane Smith are married, and have one son, Tom. John is worth
$2 Million. When John dies, he leaves $600,000 to Tom and the balance
to his wife. Result: no federal estate tax, since John has a $600,000
exemption plus an unlimited marital deduction. Mary dies one year later,
leaving the (hypothetically unchanged) $1.4 Million to Tom. Of this,
$600,000 is exempt, and $800,000 is subject to tax (of $320,000). So,
Tom gets the first 1.2 Million tax free, or 1.68 Million (net) over all.
Same facts as above, except after fathering Tom and being married to Jane
a few years, John realizes that he has "been living a lie" and is really
gay. He divorces Jane, and enters into a relationship with his new life
partner, Steve. Hypothetically, he has the same $2 Million (unlikely, given
the financial realities of divorce). Anyway, John leaves the same $600,000
to Tom, and the balance to Steve. John still gets a $600,000 exemption,
but now the $1.4 Million is taxable upon his death, to the tune of $588,000,
so now Tom nets only $348,000 from the inheritance, while Steve nets only
$1,064,000. Steve dies one year later and (hypothetically, however
unlikely) leaves the same (hypothetically unchanged) inheritance he
received to Tom. Steve gets his own $600,000 exemption, but the remaining
$464,000 is subject to tax, to the tune of $179,240, netting Tom $884,760
from Steve, or $1,232,760 overall.
So, Tom only gets 73 per cent in the "gay" situation of what he would
have gotten in the "straight" situation, and "gay" John's heirs end
up paying $767,240 in federal estate taxes, or 240 percent as much as
the heirs of "straight" John have to pay ($320,000).
The difference relates *not* to the $600,000 exemption, but to the
absence of the unlimited marital deduction/exclusion in the "gay" couple
situation.
... This tagline is made just for Rod Swift
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.30
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: JESUS NEEDED...
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:43:00
EID:0646 22744d60
-=> Quoting Christopher Hughes to Roger Hunter <=-
CH> could maintain an erection. Now, this is not to say I find it
CH> "repugnant" or "disgusting." I simply can't picture myself doing it.
CH> And to be honest, I have a hard time picturing anyone doing it. Even
CH> when looking at picture of people doing it. *shrug*
Thanks for the explanation. It is not what I had imagined, but I'm
sure it's not universal either. To me, sex with a man would be
extremely distasteful, so I'm sure your feelings do not apply to
everyone. Orientation falls on a curve and we are just in different
places.
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: HOMOSEXUALS ALSO REPR
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:46:00
EID:6bcf 22744dc0
-=> Quoting Christopher Hughes to Roger Hunter <=-
CH> Uh.. homosexuals aren't "repulsed" by the opposite sex. We simply
CH> don't find them sexually appealing. People who are "repulsed" by men
or
What percentage of the gay community can you say you speak for?
That is, how common is your feeling?
CH> women are called misandronists and misogynists, respectively.
I don't think so. Those terms refer to people who actively hate the
sex referred to. I am repulsed by the idea of sex with a man, but I
do not hate men in general.
... We must believe in free will - we have no choice.
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:50:00
EID:40de 22744e40
-=> Quoting Christopher Hughes to Roger Hunter <=-
> If we're discussing integers, you can't take half of any of them.
CH> Well, you can take half of any even integer. Half of 4 is 2. Half of
CH> 1 is outside the integer set. Half of 0 is 0. *shrug*
I did phrase that badly, didn't I? I was thinking of integers as blocks
of wood, one unit long, indivisible. Of course one can take half of 4
but that would be a string of 4 such blocks.
... Of course I'm sane. The voices said so.
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:02:00
EID:88f6 22745040
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Dan Ceppa <=-
DC> And the evidence for Noah's flood is: ???
SS> Genesis chapter 7, of course. What more could you want?
He said "scientific" evidence, moron, not a passage from a fairy
tale.
You know, things like a recognisable layer of rock containing
remains of every living thing, of all ages.
... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally.
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--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:06:00
EID:21be 227450c0
-=> Quoting Christopher Hughes to Ken Young <=-
CH> Also, how did God kill off all of the sea-dwelling creatures with a
CH> flood?o
Salinity variation. Sea creatures are very sensitive to that. The
question should be "How did Noah preserve the sea creatures?".
... ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: You Lose
|Date: 20 Mar 97 07:27:16
EID:5eb2 22743b60
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 cad1f526
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 332e8fd2
On (18 Mar 97) Judith Bandsma babbled to Marilyn Burge...
JB> I am also disturbed that IF this many illegal procedures were
JB> going on that it would not have been caught and stopped long
JB> ago. Safe, legal abortion needs to be an available choice.
JB> The law prohibits late term abortion except to save the life
JB> of the mother. I can live with that.
this is what I found for the State of Oregon for 1992:
In total that year, there were more than 12,000
abortions at all stages. The numbers were broken
down in 4-week increments, starting with 9 or less.
The last increment was 23+, which includes all of
the last four weeks of the second trimester (there
are 26 weeks in 6 months). During that four-week
period, there were 51 abortions listed of the more
than 12,000.
So, I can neither confirm nor deny that there are third-trimester
abortions occurring, but it would appear from the statistics for
that one year for the one state that the number would be very small.
After all: we have four weeks in which to perform 51 abortions. In
my opinion, for whatever it's worth, even 5-month pregnancies are
quite disturbing to me. It's been a while, but I seem to recall
feeling life at around the third month. I can't imagine feeling
that life for two months before having an abortion. I would just
hope that we are talking about confirmed serious abnormalities at
that point, and not what the fundies refer to as "convenience"
abortions.
But, given the fact that there are that few out of a population
of about 3,000,000, even at the end of the second trimester, I'd
say that, in the State of Oregon, at least, third trimester abortions
are, indeed, rare.
... 23rd Rule of Creationism: Claim superiority for Christian education.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: You forgot to answer this...
|Date: 20 Mar 97 07:34:24
EID:aea2 22743c40
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 b2d7b527
REPLY: 1:123/67 332fce39
On (19 Mar 97) Shelby Sherman babbled to Marilyn Burge...
SS> 18 Mar 97 06:42, quoting Marilyn Burge to Dan Ceppa:
MB> The word "christian" doesn't appear in the Bible.
SS> It does in my NIV
SS> AC 26:28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short
SS> time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"
SS> 1 PE 4:16[16] However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not
SS> be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. [17] For
SS> it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and
SS> if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who
SS> do not obey the gospel of God?
SS> How is this translated in the KJ? I don't have one of those.
I was using the KJV when I made the statement. Later versions
undoubtedly have incorporated language in them that reflects the
translator's theology. I would expect that. That's why the bible
is as unreliable as it is: each person who has put their hands on
the text has left their own individual fingerprints.
Acts 26:28 says the same as yours. I was wrong about that one.
(That's what you get for trusting somebody else's research.)
1 Peter 4:16-17. You're right again.
MB> For that matter, neither does the word "trinity," or a whole
MB> host of other words that are currently in the xian lexicon.
SS> Trinity I did not find.
Well, Dan Barker got the one right, anyway.
... Ńhs Ńalļī h$ ūr$ n t - dķnt $tl ”ē!!!!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: You forgot to answer this...
|Date: 20 Mar 97 07:43:15
EID:84c0 22743d60
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 6ed8eb6f
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33306f51
On (19 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa babbled to Marilyn Burge...
-> On 18 Mar 97 01:42:12, Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> Not so. All twelve of the Disciples were Jews.
DC> And, even if they existed, none of them where xians. They
DC> were following a Jewish messiah, not a construct of Saul.
MB> The word "christian" doesn't appear in the Bible. For that
MB> matter, neither does the word "trinity," or a whole host of
MB> other words that are currently in the xian lexicon.
DC> You won't happen to have a list of those floating around,
DC> would you? }:-)
Yes, but I've just found out it's not terribly reliatlbe, or
else I'm remembering the list incorrectly.
I ware remembering (or misremembering) from Dan Barker's
_Losing Faith in Faith_, which is available directly from
the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
... Of COURSE I'm on topic. (Which echo is this?)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Fundy Fables
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:51:36
EID:86b9 22745660
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 323a522b
REPLY: 1:3603/210 46664ef9
On (11 Mar 97) ROBERT CURRY babbled to JIM STAAL...
RC> MG>> Babies are totally innocent. Why do any of them need to go
RC> MG>> to hell?
RC> JS>> None are innocent. All suffer the effects of original sin.
MG> It's christian attitude just like this that turn people from
MG> your loving and merciful god.
JS> It is not an 'attitude'. It is a scriptural truth.
RC> It is sadistic, vicious bullshit. In other words, it is the very
RC> essense of traditional Christian dogma.
If you have a good concordance, you'll find that "original sin"
is never explicitly stated in either the OT or the NT.
It's another fundy construct.
... I have bursts of lady-like behavior; fortunately, they don't last.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:25:26
EID:5022 22746b20
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33318620
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 332f2e90
From his tube on the nightstand, Ken Young murmured "Freedom
of choice" to Martin Goldberg, adding:
KY> How is it clear that no gay person can help being gay? There is
KY> no evidence supporting this whatsoever.
MG> Do you wnat me to quote it to you from a medical text
MG> or will you just admit that you are wrong now?
KY> If you can, please do. But we both know this is just a myth you like
KY> believing in, so don''t expect it to be believed.
KY> If the evidence there, I will believe it, but I doubt any such
KY> evidence exists.
KY> Especially since I know people that have turned gay later in life.
I suspect that the people who did so merely took a long
while to come to an understanding of themselves. Were there
any possibility of your ever coming to any understanding
whatsoever, such might well be your fate, but you are
probably safe from that horror.
Later, you say to Roger Hunter:
KY> How is it clear that no gay person can help being gay?
KY> There is no evidence supporting this whatsoever.
RH> Well, we have the anecdotal evidence from gays and the
RH> expert testimony of the APA. How much more do you need?
KY> You have opinions by gays and the APA. And there are
KY> homosexuals that would disagree with that.
Really? Care to name three of them? Please cite your
references, too, so we can be sure that you are not
Appletooning their words.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 20 Mar 97 13:33:32
EID:ffe7 22746c20
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33318621
REPLY: 1:104/447 2796be98
George Harper said "CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS" to Don Martin,
adding:
GH> In a sane and intelligent world, these criminals posing as
GH> doctors of medicine would be hounded by the courts even as Jack
GH> Kevorkian is hounded.
DM> In other words, while you don't shoot abortionists
DM> personally, you don't really mind others manning the
DM> shotguns for you.
GH>
GH> No. In other words, I'd like to see abortion outlawed, and
GH> the practitioners put in jail. But, of course, you knew
GH> what I was getting at,
No, I did _not_ know what you were getting at. I only
knew what you had said. While distancing yourself from the
Paul Hills and the John Salvis, you _immediately_ labeled
abortion providers as "criminals" (as above), implying that
their deaths were of some benefit to society. They are
_not_, incidentally, criminals until their activities have
been outlawed, not matter how very much you would have them
so in your fevered imagination.
On what grounds would you declare abortion illegal? Give
us a sample of your proposed law, and while you are at it,
give us some reasons for our supporting its passage.
I notice that you talk a lot about intellect. You do,
methinks, protest too much.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Harper
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:23:54
EID:b277 227472e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3331930c
REPLY: 1:104/447 2796be9a
George Harper said "How about 1-on-1?" to All,
adding:
GH> Since I've been reading this echo, I have noticed that
GH> the loud-mouths who are attacking the Christian faith
GH> generally post interchangeably.
Fundies do that--I pointed out three or four instances
of stereotypical behavior in one of your last posts
(substituting "proof" for "evidence", speculating on the
possible rejection of proffered evidence rather than
actually proffering any, etc.).
GH> Not one of you responds to anything directed at
GH> you...always waiting for someone else to jump in and
GH> bail you out.
Hold on thar, li'l fundy: I have responded directly to
your posts in the past couple of days without your showing
me a single stratum. So far as waiting for others to bail me
out, those who have been on this echo longer than you (four
days? five?) can attest to the fact that I am not bashful in
responding.
GH> I've had enough of your grade school bully tactics.
Oh dear, I _am_ terrified. Whatever shall we do?
GH> If none of you has the intelligence and bravery to face
GH> off against an opponent...ON YOUR OWN...the group of
GH> you should just shut up and pay attention to those of
GH> us who are teaching the truth...
Let us guess--who might you nominate for _that_
position? Surely not the fatuous fundy who has so far failed
to provide even the slightest scrap of evidence for his
deity being anything more than a figment of human
imagination? Surely, not HE.
GH> I challenge you to select one spokesman, and have him
GH> post a topic to discuss...then one of the
GH> Christians reading this echo will step forward and the
GH> two protagonists will conduct the
GH> discussion....everyone else just reads and sits on
GH> their hands...no butting in, etc...If you aren't too
GH> much a gaggle of girlish cowards to face up to people
GH> convinced of the Truth of Christ's message and
GH> divinity... George Harper
We all love it when some newbie pustule attempts to set
the rules for the way the echo is conducted.
Show us the stratum. Until then, we can only accept your
divinities as products of human imagination and nothing
more.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Ronald Vass
|Sub: Evil + Stupidity=Atheist
|Date: 24 Feb 97 10:12:00
EID:e5f1 22585180
MSGID: 1:3800/49 0001b2f6
RV> Last I heard, she was still waiting for someone to explain
RV> these few problems, in the Holy Book of Lies.
First, the Bible is not and never will be proven to be a book of lies no
matter how hard anyone works to do so. Second, the answers to these
questions and many others that I have been asked is forthcoming. You have
a
_life_, I assume. So..., you can stand to be patient while I get to the
business of answering these questions. BTW, I thank you for these. They
are
a real good excercise for us in our studies.
II Timothy:
2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not
to
be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a It's worse than that, it's physics, Jim!
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Critical Thinking
|Date: 01 Mar 97 10:31:00
EID:e800 226153e0
MSGID: 1:3800/49 0001b2f8
LB>Of course we noticed your trollery. Its common enough here and
LB>was the FIRST indicator that you were not interested in being
LB>taken seriously. The trouble with most trolls is they never
LB>manage to do so with any finesse.
_This_ from the woman who asks favors? I am supposed to
jump right on that request to send you stuff from my archives??
How _are_ you to be taken? I must ask... Which flavor will you
choose to be next time you post?
Thanks for the post...
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a Ask & it shall be given you; Seek & ye shall find.....
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Dork
|Date: 01 Mar 97 09:01:00
EID:2275 22614820
MSGID: 1:3800/49 0001b2fb
LB>Oh, and congratulations for FINALLY actually calling someone a woman
who IS
LB>one. That makes 1 out of 3. If you get better at it you may yet get that
LB>sex life you lack.
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one is wise to remain silent. :)
Thanks for the post...
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a This message written by Dolphin Boy.
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Zerotheist groupie
|Date: 04 Mar 97 23:14:00
EID:d79f 2264b9c0
MSGID: 1:3800/49 0001b2fe
JB> DR> Your care is expressed in your response, Jezebel.
JB>Gentle reminder: It's not really safe to fuck with the
Harpies.
Gentle inquiry: How do you intend to affect my safety? Does
your arsenal contain more than harsh language and witless,
meandering attempts at impugnity? Are you so devoid of self-
esteem that you have chosen to engage in profane and useless
discourse to feel socially potent? Do you really advocate or
even comprehend the beliefs espoused in here by the zerotheists
or are you merely mindlessly cheering them on to get attention
from people that will _seemingly_ embrace you no matter how
pitifully inadequate your code of ethics is? Do you not see
yourself trying to get the zerotheists in here to solve your
belief problems for you? Do you not understand that you have to
solve your own problems by turning to a perfect source of
information and not the rebellious and self-serving anarchists of
the world? Do you not see how you and your kind clump together
in an invidious mass because, you are completely helpless on your
own? Do you not see that you rely so very heavily on those who
ultimately care not one iota for your personal well-being, but
only for their own consuming need to prove there is no God to
answer to?
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a Start slow and taper off, Judith
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Alternative A
|Date: 04 Mar 97 23:17:00
EID:cad2 2264ba20
MSGID: 1:3800/49 0001b301
SA>Laurie Appleton is male.
SA>--Wolfie
Thank you. I have been made aware of this already, but thank you
anyway.
SA>"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
SA>And insight into all hearts began.
SA>The noble wolf I saw driven forth
SA>Before the hunters to the north.
SA>Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
SA>Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
SA>The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
SA>The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
SA>The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
SA>Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
SA>The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
SA>In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
SA> -"Klaital's Journey"
SA> _Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
I like that! I am not familiar with Klaital's Journey or the
Garou Saga, though. I am also curious about your choice of
signatures. Wolfie? Into lycanthrope are you? Excuse the
inquiry. I am new here. :)
Laterness . . .
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a Never play leap frog with a unicorn, Wolfie! :)
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|From: David Ragland
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Why do you NEED to be ig
|Date: 04 Mar 97 23:33:00
EID:697b 2264bc20
MSGID: 1:3800/49 0001b304
RS>Rod "...Example: Most teachers who are pedophiles are
RS>heterosexual. How do you feel about a straight person
teaching
RS>your child at school?" Swift :)
You say, "Most teachers who are pedophiles are heterosexual."
Answer these questions:
1. What is the source of that information?
2. Does is not stand to reason mathematically?
To say that heterosexuals are more inclined to engage in
pedophilia based on this information, accurate or not, is absurd
at best. Let's say that most pedophiles in the U. S. are white.
Whites make up the majority of the national population, right?
Therefore, it stands to reason that the greater number of
pedophiles should also be white. You have to figure such things
per capita to give an account of which group has the greater
proclivity, Rod "Learn something about statistical data"
not so ===> Swift
Laterness . . .
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a After we pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is NOT our friend!
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|From: David Ragland
|To: All
|Sub: Anti-Murder Activity
|Date: 13 Mar 97 13:44:00
EID:8ff8 226d6d80
MSGID: 1:3800/49 0001b307
"Christian Coalition Announces Campaign To Enact Partial-Birth Abortion
Ban "
Subsequent to divulgence that the number of late-term abortions was higher
than formerly conceded, the Christian Coalition announced that it was
launching a campaign to pass the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban. Over on Capitol
Hill, Coalition supporter Rep. Charles Canady re-introduced the measure;
last
year the ban was passed by congress, but vetoed by President Clinton who
objected to the legislation saying that it made no provision for the health
or well-being of the mother. President Clinton claims to be a God-fearing
Baptist. One wonders if it ever occurred to him to let God's will prevail
with regards to birth complications. That is to say, "Let's try and save
both lives, Mr. President!"
In a statement to the media, the Coalition promised to "activate its
grassroots phone banks along with radio ads and targeted direct mail into
an
estimated 100 Congressional Districts in 36 states." The group also said
that its network of officials and volunteers have "committed their full
resources to insure victory."
The latest effort to pass the legislation comes after an announcement by
a
leading pro-choice official, Ron Fitzsimmons of the National Coalition of
Abortion Providers, that he "lied through (his) teeth" during an appearance
on the ABC network program "Nightline." Fitzsimmons says that he told a
reporter from the show that the so-called "partial birth" abortion procedure
was used only in the most extreme circumstances. But last week, in an
interview with the American Medical Association News, Fitzsimmons said that
the majority of the late-term abortions were performed on healthy fetuses
and
healthy mothers. "The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion
folks
now it, and so, probably, does everyone else."
At issue is a procedure known as D & X, or dilation and extraction.
Supporters of the ban label the operation a "partial birth abortion," where
the fetus is killed by having its skull pierced with scissors and the brain
matter sucked out through a tube. Some abortion rights groups have
maintained that the procedure is rarely used, accounting for only about
10,000 of the 1.4 million abortions performed annually; others note that
the
use of the term "partial birth abortion" is unfair, creating the false
impression that a viable, living human being is executed.
Fitzsimmons told Nightline that the procedure "is a form of
killing... You're ending a life." The admission brought quick praise by
anti-choice organizations and spokespersons, including Rep. Tom Coburn of
Oklahoma who praised Fitzsimmons for his "courage."
In today's statement, Christian Coalition Director Ralph Reed echoed the
refrain that "The pro-abortion lobby has lied to the American people and
to
Congress about the inhumane procedure of partial-birth abortion." He added
that "their lies have now been exposed," and said that he was "confident
that
the partial-birth abortion ban will pass both houses of congress by
overwhelming margins."
Reed noted that the Coalition was ready to "challenge President Clinton
to
make the courageous and right decision by signing this legislation when
it
reaches his desk." Our prayers need to be with our President on this one
for
certain! Let us pray that he makes the right decision!
The effort to enact a Partial Birth Abortion Ban comes not only on the heels
of Fitzsimmon's statements to the media, but a high-profile effort initiated
by Operation Rescue, one of the more militant anti-murder groups in the
nation as well. On Monday, OR activists began demonstrating outside high
schools in more than 100 cities throughout the country, waving graphic picket
signs and distributing flyers. Jeff White, a spokesman for the group, pointed
to one high school and told reporters: "Inside these buildings, they're
(students) being taught sex education, but they're not really being told
the
whole story about abortion." CNN quoted another Operation Rescue official,
who said "We want to try and reach them before they become sexually
active..."
The national effort is dubbed "God Is Going Back To School" and represents
a
major change in focus for the OR group. In the past, Operation Rescue has
centered its protests on abortion clinics Planned Parenthood offices, using
blockages, sit-ins and other forms of civil disobedience. Our prayers are
needed to assist these Christian soldiers. Let's get to it!
Peace,
David Ragland
---
SLMR 2.1a Take a bite out of crime. Reverse Roe v. Wade!
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:39:25
EID:dd7f 22744ce0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 5ce417ec
On (17 Mar 97) Lynda Bustilloz wrote to JIM STAAL...
LB> And had I approached a targetted clinic - whether it be to get an
LB> abortion, or just to have a pregnancy test done, none of the people
LB> protesting would take even a minute to ask me - or themselves - what
LB> my reasons were.
JS> How do you know?
LB> Please don't be deliberately dense...the protestors don't interview
LB> the people walking past to see whether or not to protest their entry.
I'm not being deliberately dense (and I resent the inference). I was asking
a legitimate question. You didn't approach a targeted clinic. Therefore
I asked how you would know what they would have done.
LB> Nor, if a stranger approached me demanding to know my reason for
LB> entering a building would I feel any obligation to tell them.
Me neither. Even those with badges.
... Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. (1 Cor 10:14)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:42:50
EID:eaa9 22744d40
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 3e6c3122
On (18 Mar 97) Christopher Hughes wrote to Jim Staal...
JS>> You can't fire someone for being gay.
CH> KS>> You are a fucking liar.
CH> > What country do you live in? There _are_ laws against
CH> discrimination, > you know.
CH> But sexual orientation is not one of the categories covered in the
CH> federal non-discrimination policies. Nor is it covered in 41 states.
CH> Jim, I work for the state of Texas (specifically, the University of
CH> North Texas, which is a state school). I'm very familiar with the laws
CH> regarding employment in the state of Texas. And I know that nowhere
in
CH> the policies involving employment in this state does it say that I can
CH> not be fired for being gay.
Sorry. I was only speaking from recent events here in Michigan. A
teacher in a nearby semi-rural community told a class of his of his
recent 'marriage' to another guy in a local large Presbyterian church
and the parents were incensed and demanded his job. A major battle
ensued and the man was allowed to keep his position. This was just last
year. (the guy has since died of a heart attack or something, and the
preacher who 'married' them recently left town)
CH> In fact, Texas is a right to work state. The ONLY protections I have
CH> for my job are those federal non-discrimination policies; Texas
CH> doesn't have any of its own.
Well, so then you are covered by the Feds, right? What country do you
live in? USA. Ahh...gotta love it, eh?
... So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom 8:8)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:47:52
EID:092e 22744de0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 3d0cc8e1
On (18 Mar 97) Christopher Hughes wrote to Jim Staal...
KS>> JS>JS> I can't become a b***h as you have done, no.
JS>> RS> Oh my, what Christian love and tolerance. I know of thousands
of
JS>> RS> places in the bible where Jesus was so loving and tolerant of
JS>> RS> others to call them a "bitch!" :) :)
CH> KS>> JS>Where did I say 'bitch'?
CH> KS>> You tried to, above...except you weren't smart enough to spell
CH> it.
CH> > Nah. I can spell 'bitch' if I want to.
CH> Then do please tell us what word you were referring to, above, which
CH> is five letters long, starts with b and ends with h. I can't think of
CH> many that would fit the context of the sentence besides "bitch."
Ahhh...you are a bit limited, eh? :) Last time I wrote b***h, someone (I
believe it might have been the genderless JJ) provided several solutions
to my little 'fill in the blank' word game.
... For in Him we live, and move, and have our being. - Acts 17:28
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:49:41
EID:0ee0 22744e20
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 73fe9d13
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 a44c8347
On (18 Mar 97) Marilyn Burge wrote to Jim Staal...
MB> On (11 Mar 97) Jim Staal babbled to Katherine Wintersnight...
JS> Uh...yup. Been there before myself a time or two. That
JS> does, however, solve Marilyn's argument about the birth canal
JS> not being able to accommodate the head if the head is right
JS> there when the baby is killed.
MB> No, it doesn't. The cervix is dialated as far as it can be, then
MB> the instrument was inserted into the dilated cervix and the
MB> contents of the head were extracted so it could pass through.
MB> It was something radical that was done under extraordinary
MB> circumstances in order to both save the woman's life and allow her
MB> to have more pregnancies later on.
Why do you foolishly continue to try to deny the facts of the procedure
when they and the reasons for them are a matter of public record? You
really do suffer from 'ostrich syndrome', don't you. The entire body of
the child is delivered except for the head. Face it: you lost this one.
... For every man shall bear his own burden. (Gal 6:5)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:51:49
EID:2214 22744e60
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 453078f3
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bae7c
On (16 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> RS> You use the word "gook" as a synonym for the languages and
JS> RS> peoples of Vietnam.
JS> Oh, I did, did I? And where was that?
RS> ___--------------------------------------------------------------
JS> JS>So what has that to do with speaking/spelling Gook, eh?
RS> ___--------------------------------------------------------------
JS> Two things, sir:
JS> a. it was you who complained about my correct way of spelling
JS> Vietnam, and
RS> So you had to equate Vietnam with "Gook". How loving of you
RS> Jimson.
Where?
JS> b. where above did I make any reference to the _peoples_ of
JS> Vietnam as Rod accused?? Huh?
RS> So you admit you used "gook" to describe the languages of
RS> Vietnam? How do you explain your hypocrisy in denying both
RS> claims I made, now that one has been validated?
You said 'languages and peoples' in your accusation, sir. I made
reference to a language (singular) and made no reference to 'peoples'
whatsoever. BTW, my son told me last week that 'gook' is no degrading
term in Korea where he lives and that the people refer to themselves as
such with regularity.
... Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:54:32
EID:1ec9 22744ec0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 05125bff
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332baeba
On (16 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> DR> > FLORIDA -- State court removed child from lesbian
JS> DR> > mother and gave custody to father. Father is a
JS> DR> > convicted wife-beater and murderer.
JS> JS> Would that seem to say that a wife-beater and murderer
JS> JS> is a better role model than a lesbian???[sic]
Why are you suggesting that my spelling of 'lesbian' is incorrect?
JS> DR> No. It says the state court is made up of goddamed ignorant
JS> DR> shits who deserve to be hauled out into the streets and shot
JS> DR> down like the sick, creatures they are.
JS> Let's add the Michigan legislature in with them for believing that
JS> possessing 650 grams of white powder is worth life withoutj parole,
JS> while a baby murderer or wife killer is out on the streets in 3-5.
RS> What does the above have to do with you being exposed for the
RS> hateful charlatan that you are
Evidence to support this false claim?
RS> What does the above have to do with you being exposed for the
RS> hateful charlatan that you are in suggesting that a loving mother
RS> should lose custody of her child because her hateful felon father
RS> wants it?
Two things:
a. where did I suggest such a thing? I merely asked a question
above.
b. my statement concerning the michigan 'lifer law' further
demonstrated the twisted sense of values that the law has
today to suggest that what peoplel do for recreation has more
weight than the value of a helpless human life.
... For there is no respect of persons with God. (Rom 2:11)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: raising children for hel
|Date: 20 Mar 97 09:58:27
EID:718b 22744f40
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 2084d5e3
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bce72
On (16 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> * On 12-03-97 at 13:44, JIM STAAL wrote to DAVID RICE,
RS> on the topic of "raising children for hell" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> DR> ... "May your lips be seared with hot coals, blasphemer!" -- Jim
Staal
JS> Ahhh...another good one for the FAQ.
RS> Jimson, how do you explain your zeal in wanting to sear my lips,
RS> when you realise that Jesus has commanded that you treat enemies
RS> as you would have them treat you?
RS> Do you wish me to sear your lips for your mischaracterisations?
I havne't done so. Plus, a great deal of precedence for a desire to take
vengeance on one who would so severly abuse the name of my Savior:
(Psa 139:19 NIV) If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from
me, you bloodthirsty men!
(Psa 139:20 NIV) They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries
misuse your name.
(Psa 139:21 NIV) Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor
those who rise up against you?
(Psa 139:22 NIV) I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my
enemies.
Not that this is my attitude, but the precedence is there.
... Let all things be done decently and in order. (1 Cor 14:40)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:02:48
EID:2214 22745040
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 de14f956
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bcf2a
On (16 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
RS> * On 12-03-97 at 13:52, JIM STAAL wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
RS> on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> RC> So you don't really know if you yourself are a Christian, is that
it?
JS> RC> Interesting admission.
JS> I only know of myself.
RS> Yet you claim to know me better than myself.
Where have I said that?
RS> Are you now
RS> claiming you don't know me? If so, will you retract everything
RS> you've ever said about me?
LOL! Of course not! I have eyes you know:
(Mat 7:16 NIV) By their fruit you will recognize them...
... He that doubteth is damned. - Romans 14:23
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:05:05
EID:91f9 227450a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 8a7e4a6a
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bcfa4
18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced
extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.
On (16 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Jim Staal...
JS> WHAT HAS EXEKIEL 18 TO DO WITH ORIGINAL SIN!!!?????
RS> Read Ezekiel 18:20, Jimson, and see why a child should never pay
RS> for the sins of his father,
(Ezek 18:18 NIV) But his father will die for his own sin, because he
practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among
his people.
(Ezek 18:20 NIV) The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son
will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the
guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be
credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged
against him.
So typical, Rod, to take a tiny segment out of context. The passage is
cleary making reference to individual given crimes/sins. Not 'original
sin'.
RS> even though in other parts of the
RS> bible, the sins of anyone is claimed to invalidate the chance of
RS> any of their descendants for TEN GENERATIONS being saved.
Of those who hate God. (Exo 20:5 NIV) You shall not bow down to them
or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing
the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth
generation of those who hate me,
And notice the promise to those who behave in the opposite manner...
(Exo 20:6 NIV) but showing love to a thousand generations of those who
love me and keep my commandments.
RS> Another biblical contradiction.
No contradiction.
... For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (1 Cor 13:9)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:11:24
EID:f43d 22745160
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 346915fc
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332d5cb1
On (17 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 14 Mar 97 07:32:35, Jim Staal got back to Rod Swift
JS> See? Where did I say 'gooks'? A _big_ difference.
DC> Only in your infinitesimal mind, Jimbo.
JS> Yes, I used the word 'gook', but not 'as a synonym for the languages
JS> and peoples of Vietnam.'
DC> Bullshit, Jim-bozo. You are a liar and are attempting to lie
DC> your sorry ass out of it yet again.
Not at all. Just sticking to the letter of what I actually said. I think
this stuff out carefully, you know.
... Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom 12:21)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:12:26
EID:f43d 22745180
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 7a5f8de2
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332d5df0
On (17 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 14 Mar 97 08:43:45, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> JS>So what has that to do with speaking/spelling Gook, eh?
DC> while you ignore your use of the word, 'Gook', "English Major".
JS> Two things, sir:
DC> That's God Dan to you, shithook.
JS>
DC> Your sin against me is duly noted, shithook.
Word to you, dude:
(Acts 12:22 NIV) They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a
man."
(Acts 12:23 NIV) Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God,
an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and
died.
... For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. (1 Cor 4:20)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:14:09
EID:52c1 227451c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 0af15916
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332d67ae
On (17 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 14 Mar 97 07:09:10, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
JS> BZZZT! WRONG! Jesus is God. God clearly does _not_ love everyone.
JS> S'matter, Dan? Couldn't answer the question? Don't know as much as you
JS> thought you did?
DC> I just like you pointing out that your "all-loving" god is not,
DC> Bozo.
Yes, but where do you find that my all loving God loves all?
... Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. (1 The 5:21)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:17:35
EID:cd23 22745220
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 29d6c021
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332d6c29
On (17 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 14 Mar 97 08:39:06, Jim Staal got back to Lynda Bustilloz
JS> I would not make such a threat. More in line would be my past rule of
JS> if the kid acted up in church, he/she would get three whacks on the
JS> butt (with my hand) when we got home. Interesting enough, the kid would
DC> For what, Milk-Crate? For being a kid in a place where the
DC> kid most definitely didn't want to be in the first place?
I didn't want to go to work in a body shop for 28 years either, but I
did what I needed to do. The very nature of man makes him at odds with
both God and his neighbor. It is natural for the unenlightened to not
want to be in church. But once there, changes can take place.
... I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. - Hebrews 13:5
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lower
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:20:09
EID:2341 22745280
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 747e8ce9
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332d9f4e
On (17 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 14 Mar 97 07:11:02, Jim Staal got back to Dan Ceppa
JS> her lesbian mother and her lover and given to the maternal grandmother
JS> after the little girl testified that her mother and her love had
JS> 'licked her citty-cat'?
DC> You are an even bigger piece of shit, Staal.
JS> You just hate the truth, don't you, Dan...
DC> As you have already been asked by Rod Swift: Present your
DC> evidence, Jimbo. Case name, dates, venue would be good
DC> for starters.
A very public case. Was in all the papers.
... Many false prophets shall rise, and shall decieve many. (Matt 24:11)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: the promise keepers 1/
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:20:44
EID:b4a8 22745280
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 32060505
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332dbdd2
On (17 Mar 97) Dan Ceppa wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 16 Mar 97 06:20:55, Jim Staal got back to Karl Schneider
KS> Anal Roberts' house--30 rooms, 44,000 square feet. Go down the street
KS> half a mile and you may see him golfing at Southern Hills Country Club
KS> which costs $30,000 a year membership.
JS> So tell me of the connection between PK and the right honorable Oral
JS> Roberts?
DC> "Right"? "Honorable"? That's a laugh!
DC> At least we now know where at least some of the money he
DC> steals from those as gullible as you goes.
Never gave the man a dime.
... And if children,then heirs;heirs of God,and joint-heirs with Christ.(Rom
8:17)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:21:29
EID:1ced 227452a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 6684dc25
On (18 Mar 97) DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL...
JS> Huh!? BTW, don't you ever get a little [sic] of typing
JS> in all those little [sic]s?
DR> I have a delightful Visual BASIC 3.0 program that does several
DR> things. When I copy text to the clipboard, I can hit one
DR> button and it Fundy Capitalizes the text; push another button
DR> and it seeks out improper capitalization based on a few simple
DR> rules. (I wrote it in about one hour.)
Cool.
DR> Most of the time I do not bother running the program.
I am grateful, as I find it quite annoying. (now that didn't open an
ugly door now, did it)
... Bless them which persecute you. (Rom 12:14)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:23:29
EID:9094 227452e0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c5b06d91
On (18 Mar 97) DAVID RICE wrote to JIM STAAL...
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-
DR> >>JS> (Gen 1:27 NIV) So God created man in his own image,
DR> >>JS> in the image of God he created him; male and female he
DR> >>JS> created them.
>DR> If that is so, why did the god have a mastoid bone like
>DR> we humans do?
JS> As God, the Father is spirit, I'm sure He does not. I
JS> am reasonably sure, however (if it is common to all
JS> humans) that God the Son, Jesus Christ did, as He is
JS> God in the flesh.
DR> iT would aPpear thAt You AgaiN did not FOLlOw the Issue
DR> very Well. iF the god cReateD humaNs in ITs ImagE, that
DR> god must HaVE the sAme or similar featUrEs, right? Both
DR> internaL and eXTernal? SInce HumanS hAve atrophiEd
DR> interNal and external stRuctureS, such as the mAstoid,
DR> is it NOt "rEAsonable" for you to saY the goD has thE
DR> same? If *NOT* tHen That gOD plaYed a dirty TRick on us
DR> HumaNs by givinG uS features, suCh aS tHe mastoiD, that
DR> maKes us tHink WE evolvEd. If *SO* then that goD has
DR> feAtures that maKeS it appear it EVOlvEd, toO. WHY wOuLd
DR> thE god haVE SuCH featureS?
I already covered that point with statement above. As Jesus is God in
the flesh (and had an active part in creation ) I guess man
was made in the image of God, eh?
... Blessed is the man to whom the lord will not impute sin. (Rom 4:8)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:26:47
EID:1ec9 22745340
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 c326e83e
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bc940
On (16 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Dan Ceppa...
RS> I note, also, that Jimson supports the removal of minors (i.e.
RS> under 18s) from any home in which they happen to witness their
RS> custodians/parents having sex.
Evidence ot support this claim?
... Be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. - James 1:19
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:29:32
EID:a562 227453a0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 242e9efa
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bd3a8
On (16 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Lynda Bustilloz...
RS> jim you are a complete looser
And, pray tell, oh erudite one, what does a 'looser' do? Untie those
who are bound in sin?
... Judge not according to appearance. - John 7:24
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:30:44
EID:2541 227453c0
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 bef6233a
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bd49a
On (16 Mar 97) Rod Swift wrote to Lynda Bustilloz...
LB> Remember that clergy do not define what is marriage....the state does.
RS> Of course, he will not be able to understand. Neither will Ken
RS> Young :(
Oh, yes, I understand. And the state, God bless 'em, defines it as the
union between a man and a woman (even as the Bible does).
... Quench not the Spirit. (1 The 5:19)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Satan
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 20 Mar 97 10:32:40
EID:affe 22745400
MSGID: 1:228/45.5 03b1b53d
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332d7042
On (17 Mar 97) Satan wrote to Jim Staal...
-> On 16 Mar 97 06:37:13, Jim Staal got back to Karl Schneider
JS> Dylan once so aptly put it, 'it might be the devil or it might be the
JS> Lord, but you gotta serve somebody')
S > That's why you serve me so well, Bozo.
S > ... Go hence, and sin more creatively next time.
S > --- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
S > * Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
You suffer from and little MPD now, Dan? At least the Lon S. Mabon personna
was not the total embodiment of evil as you have selected.
... Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good. (1 The 5:21)
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:23:06
EID:6870 22738ae0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333020fa
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 332e8fd0
-=> Ken complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Jason <=-
JH> schools" do you mean "stopped FORCING prayer in the schools"?
KY> No, I mean ORGANIZED prayer.
JB> That's what Jason said...FORCED prayer.
I was unaware that organized and forced meant the same thing.
Organized prayer can exist without it forcing religious beliefs in the least.
WHat would be so wrong with a student led prayer?
Besides, one cannot force anyone to believe the same way. All the organized
prayer and biblical symbols in the world, isn't going to be able to force
people to think differently.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: ...
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:27:32
EID:1e19 22738b60
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33302204
JH>> Don't you think an omnipotent being could deal with a few hours
JH>> of pain?
> Yep.. But He was not in an omnipotent form. He
CH> came here as a human
> being.
CH> So God the Father and God the Son aren't the same being? Or they are
but
CH> just not the same? Face it Ken. You're not making sense.
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are the same being, though different parts
of that same being. But, if God can do anything, certainly He can allow
Himself to come to Earth in human form.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:29:44
EID:ce42 22738ba0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33302288
JH>> someone praying in the hallway. Or by "taking prayer out of the
JH>> schools" do you mean "stopped FORCING prayer in the schools"?
> No, I mean ORGANIZED prayer.
CH> In other words, when they stopped forcing all the kids to pray.
CH> Tell you what. We'll bring back organised prayer in the classrooms.
CH> We'll require that the kids all bring prayer cloths and kneel to
CH> Mecca and pray to Allah every day. How 'bout that. That make you happy?
CH> We'll have put organised prayer back in the schools. Or better yet,
CH> make the little kiddies all sing "Satan Loves Me" before lunch. You
know
CH> the one, kids, sing along! (Sung to the tune of "Jesus Loves Me")
CH> "Satan loves me, this I know,
CH> For the voices tell me so!
CH> To the Dark One we belong;
CH> Sell your soul and you'll be strong!"
CH> Now how'd you like that? Not very much, I suspect. I feel the same way
This is why I actually am not for prayer in school.. I believe organized
prayer should never have been taken out, but now that it has, it is too
late to go back to how it was.
Besides, don't the schools basically teach kids that type of stuff that
you used as an example, anyway?
CH> about the prospect of Rod's and my children (adopted someday perhaps)
CH> being forced to pray to your god construct.
How can anyone FORCE someone to pray? One may have prayer being said, but
that doesn't make you have to pray.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Kenny's CONTRADICTION!+0+0
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:34:46
EID:f44f 22738c40
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333023b6
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332ba102
KY> Meaning, that as a gay, one cannot get saved, for
KY> once they get saved their
KY> homosexual tendencies will be gone.
RS> I know a congregation of a hundred thousand gay Christians all of
RS> whom are saved, yet all are gay.
RS> Comments? I thought not. Your small mind isn't able to
RS> comprehend that homosexuality is natural, and a gift from God :)
Correction: They CLAIM to be saved, and likely actually believe they are.
OKay, I have yet to get a decent answer on this, so perhaps you will be
able to come up with something. WHat do these "Christian" gays think of
the scriptures that condemn homosexuality? Do they deny what their holy
book says?
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:38:50
EID:3d75 22738cc0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333024aa
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bb20c
KY> KD> Women's rights marches are promoting being
KY> KD> female? Do any men go have
KY> KD> surgery done as a result of those marches?
KY> Interesting points, but the main difference would be that
KY> the color of your skin and what sex you are isn't your
KY> lifestyle.
RS> Strange, I thought you conservatives were all into describing the
RS> "black" lifestyle -- one of youths being criminals, crack cocaine
RS> and other drug abuse, dropouts from schools, welfare queens, etc,
Nope. In fact, I believe that is a lie of liberalism. One is not trapped
into a lifestyle of crime and wlefare, just because of the color of his
skin. But, unfortunately, I think many blacks have bought into that lie,
and accepted it.
It may appear to some that blacks are generally the stereotype you give
above, but many blacks want to take care of themselves, are for being tough
on crime,and have rather conservative beliefs. Trouble is, what one sees
in the media, usually are those very same, ugly stereotypes.
RS> etc, etc?
RS> And describing the "feminist" lifestyle -- burning bras,
RS> bobbitting men's pee pees, turning into lesbians and being
RS> paganistic bitch-witches... :)
No, again. That would be the "extreme feminist" lifestyle.. IOW, "FemiNazis."
Many feminists truly want equal rights, but there are a few extreme ones
out there, that want women to have more rights than men.
That's the weird thing.. Most of the female Pagans I know would be actually
against extreme feminism.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 19 Mar 97 17:48:20
EID:3d75 22738e00
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333026e4
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 332bb430
RS> * On 12-03-97 at 17:45, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROGER HUNTER,
RS> on the topic of "DRIVING MR. DAISY" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> Federally I am for freedom for gays, but on the local and
KY> state level, I say it is up to the public.
RS> Are you federally for religious freedom, but on a local and state
RS> level that it is up to the public?
RS> If not, why not?
RS> Religion is a choice, remember, like you claim sexuality to be.
No, religious freedom is not up to the public. Why? Because that's according
to the US Constitution. As I think you have already mentioned, there is
nothing in there, about one's sexual preference.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: ...
|Date: 20 Mar 97 00:34:46
EID:6f08 22740440
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33308626
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332d4318
KY> Yep.. But He was not in an omnipotent form. He came here as a human
KY> being.
DC> Ok, so that means he's dead.
DC> Hey gang, we can all go home! Kenny admits his god is dead!
He dies, that's for sure.. But guess what? There is one little part of
this called the resurrection of Christ!
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: DRIVING MR. DAISY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 00:37:30
EID:dde9 227404a0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333086ca
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Katherine Wintersnight <=-
KY> My basic point here was that one death is horrible, that being the
KY> death of an innocent unborn baby. So, how is an
RH> older life, any worse?
RH> It's the difference between a piece of meat that MIGHT someday
RH> become human and someone who already IS human.
But the woman already had a chance at life, so if either is more important,
wouldn't it be the unborn baby, since he/she didn't even do anything to
get in that situation?
ANd both are human beings. If it isn't human what is it? And keep in mind
your answer must have a heartbeat.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Fudgefest
|Date: 20 Mar 97 02:15:28
EID:83ee 227411e0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33309dc0
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 76e682c1
KY> to inform you of your errors, but you can't have too many right
KY> minded people.
MG> We've hears all this before, Jelly. Ragland has
MG> already taken a Powder Majoris. After you leave for
MG> one of the following reasons:
MG> 1. Hard drive crash.
MG> 2. Need to move on.
MG> 3. My works is done here.
MG> 4. I don't have time anymore.
Sorry to see him go, but perhaps he will return.
But not only do I intend to stay, but now I think, in a week or so, I will
have time to post more, and give a lot more detailed responses. I am not
going anywhere. Accept it, you are stuck with me! :)
WIll there come a time when "my work will be done," here? Perhaps, but
that will only occur when this echo has completely changed.
MG> there will be plenty of others, just as silly as you.
MG> There have been others before you that left with their
MG> tail between their legs and then showed up in another
MG> echo to tell them how they "kicked the shit out of
MG> those atheist bastards over in Holysmoke. It will happen again.
No, I like listening to your irrational rantings. But you are right on
one thing, there will be plenty of others. Just wait. In a year, you will
likely be the one running out of here.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Kosher and Gentiles
|Date: 20 Mar 97 02:20:54
EID:6027 22741280
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33309f06
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 76e684cc
KY> It may make you proud of yourself to know that Zola Levitt is one
KY> of the best known in the Messianic Jew movement. And a
KY> Messianic Jew I might add that did nothing to provoke that verbal
KY> assault. WHat is wrong with offering free literature? If you
KY> don't want it, don't take it. Real simple..
MG> I didn't. If he doesn't wnat to hear my opinion about
MG> his bullshit literature, then he shouldn't offer it to
MG> me. Real simple.
You can't just say no, and be on your way?
And do people for different agendas, causes, or beliefs, have the right
to offer their literature without harrassment?
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 20 Mar 97 02:22:46
EID:d499 227412c0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33309f76
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 76e6bc2c
KY> Nope. I was misunderstood. All I was saying was that while they
KY> are gay, they cannot become Christian. But once they accept
KY> Christ as their savior, all homosexuality is gone.
MG> We've had a number of gay men here that tell us that
MG> they are as xtian as the next guy. Who decides who is
MG> xtian? You?
Try, the Bible.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 20 Mar 97 02:23:18
EID:d499 227412e0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33309f96
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 76e6bea6
KY> Because while one is not better than the other, one has accepted
KY> truth, while the other hasn't.
MG> What truth is that Mr. Black and White Jelly Bean?
MG> Be very careful when you go flinging absolutes around.
MG> They make you look asinine.
You don't believe there is any such thing as absolutes?
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: David Worrell
|To: All
|Sub: God's a winner
|Date: 20 Mar 97 00:32:41
EID:5d61 22740400
MSGID: 1:123/67.7 333085f5
PID: GED3 2.5
YOU MAY ALREADY HAVE WON:
American Family Publishers wants to find God. "God, we've been searching
for you. You've been positively identified as our $11 million mystery millionaire
from Florida," reads a sweepstakes entry mailed to Him in care of the Assembly
of God Church in Bushnell, Fla. "God, come forward now and claim your prize."
(UPI) ...Anyone who has felt the heat of Florida knows that He is not there.
(Taken from the _This is True_ Mailing list)
---
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop, No. 7 (1:123/67.7)
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|From: BRIAN KOLACY
|To: ALEC GRYNSPAN
|Sub: Re: You forgot to answer
|Date: 20 Mar 97 20:03:20
EID:d28f 2274a060
TID: PX/Win v2.0 PX96-0423
MSGID: 1:2612/10 d9563b36
Subject: Re: You forgot to answer this
< ALEC GRYNSPAN said in a message to GEORGE HARPER >
AG> Jew != Christian, now or ever.
AG> No Jew believes in Jesus. Period.
Awww....what about "Jews for Jesus"?
žSATANIC; n: Anything a fundamentalist Christian doesn't like.
--- UNREGISTERED CyberQWK v1.0 (c)95-97 Stryder Soft. Dev.
________________________________________________________________________
Cheers!
Mephisto
http://www.mephistopheles.org/abyss/
mephisto@mephistopheles.org
brian@booklook.com
* Origin: BBS Networks @ bbsnets.com 301-863-5089 (1:2612/10)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 20 Mar 97 16:12:00
EID:c5a5 22748180
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Roger Hunter <=-
RC> Provided you don't fuck indiscriminantly, share needles, or perform
RC> other high-risk behaviors, you will find that for a "contagious"
RC> disease, there is virtually zero chance of contracting it.
Ah, but Robert, the cocksuckers are doing just that. Some of
them even brag about it.
RC> You would do better to prohibit people from driving, because that
RC> results in more fatalities, including FAR more indiscriminate ones.
I'd raise the driving age to 21 myself.
RC> So why are you becoming hysterical about it? I think that's what
RC> he's getting at.
No hysteria involved in isolating carriers of fatal diseases.
RH> It's fatal and I don't care HOW hard it is to catch.
RC> You don't care about the facts? That does not seem like a very
RC> rational or reasonable attitude. What is the real problem, here?
The facts are not in dispute, we are arguing about methods of
prevention.
RC> The highways can be fatal, too; much more likely to kill you.
Unquestionably. I'm all for revoking driving permits for bad drivers
too....for all the good it does.
RH>> Why shouldn't we punish anyone who knowingly passes
RH>> on a fatal illness?
DR> Who said such a person should not be punished?
RH> You did. It was one of the things you were objecting to;
RH> criminal penalties for concealing one's illness.
RC> So by your (ahem) reasoning, a person who conceals a gun is
RC> knowingly shooting people with it.
Don't be obtuse, Curry. The purpose in concealing AIDS is so you can
continue having sex, which is the transmission mode.
RC> Come again?
That's what they want to do!
RC> I think you missed a cylinder on this one.
Not at all.
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Quentin Fai
|Sub: JESUS NEEDED...
|Date: 20 Mar 97 16:13:00
EID:a8af 227481a0
-=> Quoting Quentin Fai to Roger Hunter <=-
QF> What's so abnormal about using a turkey baster? Heterosexuals use
QF> them, too.
QF> Besides, if a gay man really had a problem with a turkey baster, he
QF> could always close his eyes and pretend he was with a man.
I'm told that's how it's done.
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 16:55:00
EID:fe99 227486e0
-=> Quoting George Harper to Becke Boyer <=-
BB> AKA Pascal's Wager. It's already been debunked. What if you're
BB> worshipping the wrong god?
GH>
GH> What if I'm *NOT*? Are you ready to accept the results of THAT
Well, let's see. there are probably 3,000 different Gods, speaking
conservatively, so you have 1 in 3,000 chances of being correct
IF there are in fact any Gods at all.
Pretty poor odds on that bet, no?
GH> possibility? You can "debunk" all you want...I AM ready to face
GH> the results of my choice of belief system's being wrong...because
GH> that would mean mere cessation of existence, with nothing to cause
GH> me to regret having made my choice. However...if *I* am right,
Wrong, dumbo. If the one true God is Kali, you're in a HEAP of shit.
GH> what lies ahead for you and other like-thinkers is really enough to
GH> justify constant and frantic denial on your part, given your
GH> stupidity preventing you from altering that belief system in
GH> time...
GH> Now the ball is in your court...answer this personally...without
GH> resorting
GH> to vulgarities if your vocabulary allows...if you dare...
My vocabluary is fine, thank you. The vulgarity is by choice.
Fuck you, asshole.
... Ok, I pulled the pin. Now what? Where are you going?
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: CE
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:07:00
EID:95cd 227488e0
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
JB> Take the FUN out of it? Whyfor? Gives my mind some exercise.
JB> (Besides, none of the points in T-verse have "0" written on 'em.)
Or any other number for that matter. We are not talking about T-Verse
points, we are talking about numbers.
JB> No, I know that IN SOME CASES I need it. T-verse doesn't need it
JB> until T-verse requires translation into math (which does need it).
AHA! An admission!
JB> You're using 0 every time you output or use a coordinate in which one
JB> of the axes has zero translation from the origin, but the points don't
JB> have the label "0" on them to begin with. I also have a strong
Was there a point in there somewhere?
JB> _philosophical_ prejudice about sticking a 'zero block' into a line
of
Ah, I see; you are prejudiced. Well, that explains a lot...
JB> discrete 'real' objects; it's an artificial addition, for convenience'
JB> sake. My example of counting through the zero block, while
JB> maintaining symmetry with which block one starts and ends on, clearly
JB> shows one instance in which the 'zero block' _doesn't_ work.
No it doesn't, it shows how badly you need one.
JB> "Good Lord," Roger, math _begins_ with metaphysics, in the sense that
JB> unlike T-verse's putative origin-sequence realness, nothing 'real'
JB> starts a math system. It's started by an _axiom_; a statement dragged
JB> out of nowhere.
Irrelevant at this point.
JB> (*chuckle*) So long as there's an instance in which one, or the
JB> other, method doesn't quite work, there's a question: _why_ doesn't
it
JB> work? That provides interesting games to play with people who think
the
JB> thing _always_ works, but who, like Fundies, deny the existence of
the
JB> counterexample.
I have given you such examples countless time but you keep denying it.
... Tagline fever is the primary symptom of the Blue Wave epidemic!!
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:15:00
EID:2498 227489e0
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
GH> Wrong...those who deny the opportunity of cleansing from original
GH> sin to a child are FAR worse than the one who announces that this is
GH> the result of killing an unborn child.
But it's ok for God to burn them, eh sicko?
GH> Original sin is placed on us all by God as the mark of humanity.
Right. Your God of vengeance burns babies because one woman
ate a piece of fruit, and you think that's ok. Asshole.
GH> The person at fault here is Eve, the original woman. Without her
GH> acceptance
GH> of the lies of the serpent, Adam and Eve would still be living in
And just who made the serpent and put him in the garden?
Ever hear of entrapment?
GH> the Garden of Eden, which was God's intent. Because she ate the
GH> fruit, and seduced Adam into copying her, we all pay the price.
Can you say "injustice"?
GH> However, God, in His Mercy, has given us a means to make up for
GH> being children of
GH> Eve....and that means is what you, and all the other
GH> pro-abortionists are guilty of denying the aborted ones. Small
GH> wonder you want to deny the truth of God's existence, shouting
GH> for/demanding "evidence" and refusing such evidence when
GH> presented...any other course of action would mean that YOU have to
GH> accept the fact that you are baby-killers and will have to account
GH> for those deaths...
Bullshit. Want to talk about miscarraiges and spontaneous abortions?
All those babies burning in Hell because God aborted them...
GH> BTW: aren't you afraid that my thinking may contaminate your smug
GH> stupidity?
Hahahahahaha. I've seen no thought from you, only parroted bullshit.
GH> You are the first one to reply in person to a post addressed to you
GH> in this
GH> echo...generally even when the post is from one of your fellow
GH> apologists.z
Care to try this again? It doesn't seem to parse.
... I can't believe that out of 100,000 sperm, you were the quickest. -
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:27:00
EID:1c83 22748b60
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Roger Hunter <=-
rh> All excellent ideas IMHO. What do you have against any of them?
rh> How better to contain an epidemic than by isolating the carriers
rh> from the healthy?
rh> We used to quarantine measles victims, why not AIDS victims?
FR> Are you SERIOUSLY this fucking ignorant?!!!
Ignorant? No. Cold-blooded? Maybe. And fuck you too Freddie...
FR> How is measles transmitted, dear? And how is HIV transmitted?
Personal contact, in both cases. AIDS is harder to catch, that's all.
And for AIDS we can add shared needles and unprotected sex, which
AIDS carriers are frequently involved in as well.
FR> Your suggestion has merit were we discussing the various strains of
FR> Ebola but are you sure you want to defend your position about HIV?
Any day. I'll even throw in immediate execution for HIV positives
if you wish, since they'll die anyway.
... "One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." -- Heinlein
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: HOW ABOUT 1-ON-1?
|Date: 20 Mar 97 17:45:00
EID:83e8 22748da0
-=> Quoting George Harper to All <=-
GH> Since I've been reading this echo, I have noticed that the loud-mouths
GH> who are attacking the Christian faith generally post interchangeably.
That's the way it works, George. Is this the first echo you've
been on?
GH> Not one of you responds to anything directed at you...always waiting
GH> for someone else to jump in and bail you out. I've had enough of
All messages are public. Anyone is free to jump in anywhere they
like. Live with it.
GH> your grade school bully tactics. If none of you has the intelligence
GH> and bravery to face off against an opponent...ON YOUR OWN...the group
GH> of you should just shut up and pay attention to those of us who are
GH> teaching the truth...
Hahahahahahaha.. Any one of us is more than enough for all of you
at once.
GH> I challenge you to select one spokesman, and have him post
a
You'd never get a consensus on who should be IT!
GH> topic
GH> to discuss...then one of the Christians reading this echo will step
GH> forward
GH> and the two protagonists will conduct the discussion....everyone else
GH> just
GH> reads and sits on their hands...no butting in, etc...If you aren't too
GH> much
GH> a gaggle of girlish cowards to face up to people convinced of the
GH> Truth of
GH> Christ's message and divinity...
Too bad you aren't the Moderator (BBHN) here, eh? Until you are, make
the best of it or just go away.
... "Scotty, beam me up another Blue Wave message."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 18:12:00
EID:eec2 22749180
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
JB> And that's wrong in some cases. One such: how many marbles are there
JB> from -5 to -1, inclusive of the ends? (5) How many from +1 to +5,
JB> inclusive? (5) What's 5+5? (10) How many marbles do you count when
JB> you lay them all down in a line and count from one end to the other?
JB> (10) Now stick your zero marble in the line. How many now? (?!?)
JB> (11)
JB> You dispute this?
Not at all, because you are talking about real marbles, not marbles
used as symbols for numbers.
JB> The problem seems to arise only when crossing that 'zero marble.'
Yes.
JB> line, but ends ON the answer block. My way starts AND ends ON the
RH> Do NOT! I start on the first block and end on the answer. You end up
RH> in midair somewhere. Show us 5 - 5, your way. In that case you have
RH> to float, whereas -I- have a block to stand on.
JB> I merely now submit (again) that there are special cases in which
Not! NOT! not...
JB> "My" way:
JB> 5 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 5
JB> 1 2 3 4 5 6
JB> *---------*
You violate the rule. To count a block, you must step off of it.
So, my way, -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 2 3 4 5 6 *
is correct. I end on the answer. Since it is not being counted
it is not removed. You remove the start but not the end. YOU
are inconsistent.
JB> I start by counting the marble I'm ON, __and__ I end ON the block that
JB> is the answer. The counterexample, in which this doesn't _exactly_
JB> work like 'real blocks' ( x minus itself) is not a fatal blow; it is
JB> an _ecxeption_, and a minor one at that. Moreover, in this system,
'x
There are no exceptions.
... I call things as I see them; If I didn't see them, I make them up!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 20 Mar 97 18:18:00
EID:eec2 22749240
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
JB> ....And I said it wasn't. -5 is bigger than -4.
JB> _-3_ is smaller than -4, and when you get down to -1, -.5 is smaller.
JB> The -5 _year_ is further away from 0 than -4 is, yes. It's not
JB> "smaller," but even without the year-blocks, the sequence _ascends_
in
JB> both directions away from zero.
You can't be serious. How do we get a smaller number? By subtraction.
What is smaller than 4? Let's see; 4 - 1 = 3 so 3 is smaller
than 4. What is smaller than 1? 1 - 1 = 0, so zero is smaller than 1
Now what is smaller than zero? 0 - 1 = -1 so -1 is smaller than 0.
-1 - 1 = -2, so -2 is smaller than -1
and so on to -infinity.
JB> Sorry, that looks like nonsense. Two increments of something is
JB> _larger_ than one increment, be that thing negative or positive. Two
WRONG.
JB> marbles labelled "-1" and "-2" is two marbles, not less than two
JB> marbles. Two degrees below zero is two whole degrees, just as two
JB> degrees above zero is. One is not "smaller" than the other.
Which is colder? Which means LESS heat?
... I hit the CTRL key but I'm still not in control!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: SECURE DIGITAL CONFER
|Date: 20 Mar 97 18:34:00
EID:794f 22749440
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> I can do it in 1. In Stereo Shell, the space bar flags a file. One
RH> all are flagged, you can move, delete, copy , etc all at once.
JB> "Cweep.exe" (or "sweep.exe") does that. I don't use it much, since
JB> even in a subdir with forty files to erase, two-keying them out one
at
JB> a time is still faster than getting out, calling Cweep, recalling its
JB> operation, marking all, deleting all, then getting out and back into
JB> LIST.
That's the advantage of Stereo Shell. It's a text-based shell, showing
two directories at once. If you ask to see a file it calls up LIST.
Or it will call up an editor or PKZIP or whatever you want to do,
all without typing anything.
RH> Good Lord, you _lost_ more than I _have_ total. My wife would kill
RH> me if that happened.
JB> (Note I didn't say I _lost_ that; I said I'd be that much better off
JB> now than I am.)
JB> It's not representative: It was a HUGE gain, Nov.95-->May.96, from a
JB> few darned good 'guesses' (my calculated risks), meaning it was a
JB> rather LARGE fraction of my total holdings. Moreover, it was a
JB> _compound_ mistake: not only did I not have stop-loss orders in place,
JB> but also when I got back from fishing and saw the destruction, I sold
JB> out low to preserve what little profits I still had. The stocks went
JB> right back up after that, so that $80,000 was (as I said) what I
JB> _would_have_had_, had I not a) failed to have stop-losses backing up
JB> the stocks AND b) sold out at the bottom.
My wife counts that as a loss. I don't call it a loss until I sell below
where I bought.
JB> It takes guts, and I knew that from Peter Lynch's book, where he says
JB> that more people lose at stocks because they get "scared out of the
JB> market" than from any other cause. I got scared out of the market in
JB> June of 1996. That will NOT happen again.
Don't forget 1929. Those who hung on lost all.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: All
|Sub: vacation
|Date: 20 Mar 97 22:39:12
EID:a3d3 2274b4e0
Be it known to friends and enemies alike that I will be out of touch in
the wastelands of Kansas for the next week or so.
But never fear; I _will_ return.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 20 Mar 97 14:56:42
EID:d176 22747700
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331502a
-> On 19 Mar 97 12:40:04, Richard Smith got back to Dan Ceppa
MO> No scientific fact disagrees with me at all. -- Ken Young
ky> Find one.
RS> Go on, ask him about digging to Hell . . .
I think the the hole he's dug for himself already is
big enough, don't you?
... Aliens have invaded Earth! How else do you explain Fundies?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:04:13
EID:582d 22747880
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 333151ed
-> On 18 Mar 97 19:08:48, Ken Young got back to Martin Goldberg
KY> If the evidence there, I will believe it, but I doubt any such
KY> evidence exists.
KY> Especially since I know people that have turned gay later in life.
I guess that that's what you are afraid of: You will turn gay
as you get older. Or, have you already turned gay and you
won't admit it to yourself?
... Jesus loves you..but then again, so does Barney.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 20 Mar 97 15:21:05
EID:7e45 22747aa0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 333155e1
-> On 17 Mar 97 05:15:00, DAVID RICE got back to DAN CEPPA
DC> back from a "HD crash". He seems to have forgotten what
DC> he said when he left this Echo the last time around.
DC> Well, Wiens?
DR> Heh! Jesus will "return" before Kenny explains himself.
Weins is a typical fundy. He expects everyone to have as
short of an attention span as he does.
DR> I get to take my shot at Weins. He claimed no one "could
DR> explain Natural Selection" to him, so I went through my
He's probably correct about that, as he cannot look at the
evidence and make it reconcile with his belief system. So,
he cries, "Is NOT!" instead.
DR> exacting detail. When I posted excerpts, Weins vanished
DR> from the echo.
DR> Coincidence, or conspiracy? :-)
More like him trying to cover his tracks and wait for the
blood hounds to get bored. However, he had left a very
bloody spoor the first time around.
... Everyone who does not choose Hitler, chooses the gas chamber.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Norman Solomon
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 20 Mar 97 21:13:19
EID:aafb 2274a9a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331a86f
-> On 09 Mar 97 14:44:00, Norman Solomon got back to Dan Ceppa
MB> I form the light, and create darkness: I make
MB> peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these
MB> things. Isaiah 45:7
MB> So, you see, Dan is correct.
NS> I form the light and create darkness,
NS> I bring prosperity and create disaster;
NS> I, the Lord, do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 (NIV)
Aren't multiple versions of a "perfect bible" so nice to
have to bounce around? Seems that there is no consensus
as to which version is the "true" version.
MB> "credit" for creating evil, in the first person, yet.
NS> Not evil, blessing or curse, "prosperity or disaster". That makes it
DC> Disaster is not a curse? What world do you live on? Masochists
NS> I did'nt say disaster was not a curse, a curse would be consistant
NS> with Gen 3 it's creating evil that is'nt.
So, then, it's ok for your god to curse you. Nice loving god
you worship.
... There's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over! - Zap
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:24:31
EID:1055 22750b00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331e34f
-> On 11 Mar 97 21:43:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Dan Ceppa
DG> As I said before, it's odd you should say that, Dan, because one day
DG> God will be imposing sentence on YOU. Also, your comment implies that
And, just what is your evidence?
DG> race of people in this universe called Flatlanders. All of a sudden,
a
DG> sphere passes through Flatland! What do the Flatlanders see? They
see
Such a pity that you don't even have that evidence to pass off
as your god.
... This is your brain. This is your brain on religion. Any differences?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: J.J. NEEDS TO BE
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:28:18
EID:5f61 22750b80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331e432
-> On 10 Mar 97 21:09:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Got evidnce of a god? We have a prosecutor and a defense
DC> attorney at hand to take the son of a bitch to trial.
DC>
DG> Really? Just for the two seconds' worth of amusement, what are the
I'm surprised that your attention span is that long.
DG> charges?
Crimes against humanity, to name the major offense/
DG> How will you enforce them?
In exactly the same manner that your god does.
DG> And what legal jurisdiction are you under?
Your god is under the jurisdiction per your bible.
DG> defendant. And by the way----now you won't be able to plead ignorance.
Of course I can't. You obviously have no other defence than
to do so, however.
... The idiotic wonders of dogmatism never cease.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Moin Hallo Hi
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:35:10
EID:bf23 22750c60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331e5ce
-> On 11 Mar 97 12:15:27, Karen Davis got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> ex. Mine will be to the first 2 plus the State School
DC> Commissioner and the Legal Department.
KD> What is the specific problem?
The only information I get regarding my kid's education is
sidetracked long enough so that I am unable to state my
views and give my approval until after the fact. IOW, my
rights as a parent are being disregarded by the system.
DC> much time off when I was in grade school. The summer vacation
DC> started about the middle of June and ended just after the 1st
DC> weekend in August. And, the only long break was between xmass and
DC> New Years.
KD> You forget Easter.
No, I didn't. Though we got off early on Good Friday, we were
back at school on Monday morning. And, this was at a parochial
school.
... "God Dammit, Jim, they're fundies! They'll rebuke us!" Gord Magill
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Reading Incomprehensi
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:42:08
EID:dc43 22750d40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331e770
-> On 11 Mar 97 22:02:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> Bullshit, Kenny. Your "godling" Jesus said that he "came not
DC> to change one dot or tittle of the law."
DG> Absolutely inane, Dan. What He said was, "Do not think that I came
to
DG> destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to
Tell me, Darryl, Darryl and your other brother Darryl: Now
that your godling fulled all the laws, does that mean that
it's now ok to murder someone? After all, you are trying
to say that the old laws no longer apply.
... So, what part of "You're an asshole!" don't you understand?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Reading Incomprehensi
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:43:56
EID:81c5 22750d60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331e7dc
-> On 12 Mar 97 04:09:00, Ken Wiens got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>Bullshit, Kenny. Your "godling" Jesus said that he "came not
DC>to change one dot or tittle of the law."
KW> He was correct. He fulfilled that Law 100% too. He was
KW> the first and only One able to do so.
The Tenach requires rabbis to be married. Looks like your
godling didn't quite fulfill them all, Kenny.
... I spoke to God this morning, and he doesn't like you.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Water and Flood.
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:48:01
EID:7b85 22750e00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331e8d1
-> On 12 Mar 97 04:45:34, Laurie Appleton got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> You are the one that stated, 'most', Laurie. It implies
DC> that you already know that there are others that do not
DC> contain what you require.
LA> Your conclusion does not follow from the facts. I said
You have yet to provide facts, Laurie. After all, all that
you state is direct from the ICR.
LA> MOST, because I do not whether they MIGHT be some of the
LA> world's highest mountains that do not follow that general
Of course you don't "know", Laurie. You were not given those
facts as it ruins the case of your ICR handlers.
DC> Do you work at being stupid or does it come naturally
DC> to you?
LA> What is stupid about anything that I have said? So since
Tell us about your excursion with Harry Truman, Laurie. Come on,
the whole world is waiting for you to tell us.
... Mt. St. Helens Presidential Tours - contact Laurie Appleton.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:51:03
EID:8ec2 22750e60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331e987
-> On 14 Mar 97 02:59:26, Karl Schneider got back to Ken Young
KY>find such a thing very sick indeed. But, a majority of molesters do
appear t
KY>be gay.
KS> You are a liar.
Have you gotten a reply from Ken on this yet?
... "Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.": J Falwell
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Hypocritical people
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:54:28
EID:1472 22750ec0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331ea54
-> On 14 Mar 97 07:24:00, Katherine Wintersnight got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> DC> DC>She could always bring home the pigs' feet instead.
DC> DC> KW> I hadn't thought about that aspic.
DC> DC>And, having done that, it all jelled together, I'm sure.
DC> KW> It still depends on who has the mousse evidence.
DC>You are getting rather frothy about that and are trying to get
DC>a rise out of me.
KW> Just egging you on, m'dear. Now, who's
KW> a head?
The yeast you could do is be nice and stop rapping me on my nog-in.
... Taglines...one line freedom of speech!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Idiocy
|Date: 21 Mar 97 01:57:25
EID:e625 22750f20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331eb05
-> On 15 Mar 97 08:20:22, Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa
MG>> guess. You may as well have decided that the president of
MG>> the US was a marshmallo.
DC> And the evidence that he isn't is ???
MG> Dosen't taste good with strawberry Jello?
However, he quivers like a bowl full of Jello when it comes
to making the tough decisions.
... I threw a beer at Clinton. He dodged it. (It was a draft)
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: infinitesimals
|Date: 21 Mar 97 02:05:03
EID:693e 227510a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331eccf
-> On 13 Mar 97 03:54:39, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> you in a game of pool? It's amazing what you can do to a
DC> couple of balls that are touching as compared to a slightly
JB> as above; loci (or zero-width points) are not balls. They may _act_
JB> like balls when there's a noncoalescence axiom imposed and the set
is
JB> at least 3D, but they are not balls themselves.
You fail to understand the interaction between the balls. I can
make a shot that "should" miss by "mis-aiming". Yes, John, it
takes us away from pure points, but points are a mathematical
concept. After all, a point is a location that has zero
width, among other zero measurements.
... +Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop & Non-locality Emporium
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: J.J. Needs To Be
|Date: 21 Mar 97 02:08:18
EID:033e 22751100
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331ed92
-> On 14 Mar 97 06:15:16, Ken Wiens got back to Dan Ceppa
DC>of those "non-deaths" meted out by the Crusades, Inquisition
DC>and other assorted witch burnings.
KW> Do the actions of those involved in these things fit the
KW> descriptions of what a true christian is in the following
Such a pity that all of those "not true" xians based their
butchery on your bible. You, in fact, call for the
execution of 12 yr old rape victims based on the same
bible.
... "I was just following orders." Adolph Eichmann
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Millennium Lunacy
|Date: 21 Mar 97 02:15:01
EID:32b7 227511e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331ef25
-> On 13 Mar 97 04:07:58, John Brawley got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> You really don't like ZERO, do you.
JB> I like it just fine. This is an intellectual game for me; I don't
JB> refuse to use zero when it seems useful. It _is_ a useful
JB> _abstraction_, after all....
All numbers are an abstraction, John. Unless you decide to
use only postive numbers greater than zero as your number base,
you must use zero. And, the only way you can have a universe
that has all positive coordinates is to show that you have
the absolute reference point of origin, which is still the
zero point.
... A dozen, rounded to 2 significant digits, is 10. Care to buy a dozen?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Wiens
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 21 Mar 97 02:20:08
EID:9263 22751280
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331f058
-> On 14 Mar 97 05:08:02, Ken Wiens got back to Rod Swift
RS>Did you know Jim Staal begs for money on this echo?
KW> I've heard he has done this here. But he has given
KW> me a different version. I haven't seen any of his
Of course he does, Kenny, he's the "one true xian" and
you aren't. Looks like you should send Staal the money
he begs and get saved in his ministry.
... "I am a Lump, 'cause Unky Staal says I am. Got pictures to prove it!"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: R Daily Xtian Persecutio
|Date: 21 Mar 97 02:31:19
EID:6a44 227513e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331f2f7
-> On 15 Mar 97 08:31:34, Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> He is oblivious to the way he points out his own racism in nearly
DC> every post he sends.
MG> His comment that "blacks cannot help being black" smacks of nearly
MG> quoted material of Archie Bunker when he asked Sammy Davis Jr. "I know
MG> you can't help being black, but why did you turn jew?"
I remember that show show well: "Care for some sugar in your
eye, Mr. Davis?", with Archie sitting in Edith's seat and
Sammy on Archie's throne.
They don't make TV like that any more. It brought out all of
the foibles of this society for all to see. Unfortunately,
irreverence has turned into PC.
Sweeping it under the rug only makes for a lumpy carpet.
... Politically Correct: Euphemism for censorship
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lower
|Date: 21 Mar 97 02:35:16
EID:647f 22751460
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3331f3e4
-> On 09 Mar 97 09:07:56, Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa
RS> mother and gave custody to father. Father
RS> is a convicted wife-beater and murderer.
iJS> Would that seem to say that a wife-beater and murderer
ijs> is a better role model than a lesbian???
dc> Just when I thought you couldn't sink lower than the bottom
FR> I know for a fact that he's capable of much worse. This is as low as
Interesting... though not unexpected.
FR> he's publically gotten in this forum yet not as low as his Civil
FR> record gets.
Care to elaborate on that?
dc> You are one big piece of shit, Staal.
FR> The guy is pure evil -- and I suspect he knows it.
Knowing him, he'll deny he knows anything. And, on that,
I would agree.
... I don't know of any book of myths, but the Bible -- Jimson Staalin
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Little Bones for Dan - 0 of 6
|Date: 21 Mar 97 03:48:04
EID:3f79 22751e00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 333204f4
-> On 16 Mar 97 01:15:18, J.J. Hitt got back to Dan Ceppa
JH> Ok... here it is in six parts (about 7K a section, that should make
Thanks, got them.
JH> it through anything). I've not bothered to massage the text any,
JH> so if the margins end up screwy: tough.
How about for the fact that this part is the ZERO part? Don't
you have to apologize to Brawely or something?
JH> Also included (for the first time anywhere) are the footbones...
JH> er.. footnotes.
Are they anything like fonebooths?
... Yes, it DOES require faith to actively disbelieve in Santa Claus.
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Reading Incomprehensi
|Date: 21 Mar 97 03:54:04
EID:8836 22751ec0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3332065c
-> On 15 Mar 97 13:11:02, Rod Swift got back to Dan Ceppa
DC> -> On 08 Mar 97 06:22:02, Ken Wiens got back to Rod Swift
DC> KW> heaven. The New Testament repeatedly states the christian
DC> KW> is not under the OT Law or bound by that Law. The Law was
DC> Bullshit, Kenny. Your "godling" Jesus said that he "came not
DC> to change one dot or tittle of the law."
RS> Hence, Leviticus 20 still applies to them. They should start
RS> stoning fags to death immediately :)
Better yet, not being bound by the old law means that they
can violate all of those old laws with impunity. And,
judging by xian actions, they are doing the best/worst
they can in violating them.
... "Oh, bother," said Pooh as he made yet another ham sandwich.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: John Brawley
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 19 Mar 97 13:39:47
EID:fff3 22736ce0
MSGID: 1:100/435.1 e4ccb25a
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 332d4270
On 17 Mar 97, Dan Ceppa wrote:
-> On 16 Mar 97 09:43:22, Christopher Hughes got back to John Brawley
DC> DC>> If you take away five black marbles, John, how many black
DC> marbles DC>> do you have left?
> None, but your counterexample isn't faithful to the analogy.
DC> I think he learned that from the Michael Hardy School of Analogy.
> Take away five black marbles, _you_ have six _marbles_ left; _I_ would
> have five --the correct number (10 - 5 = 5).
CH> But how many black ones, John? What's 5-5?
DC> Trust me: John will _not_ say 'zero'. It goes against his religion.
Sure I will: "zero." "5-5" is "0", and it's an abstract math formula.
It's not about marbles, so why would I object to answering with "0?"
Take away five black marbles from five black marbles, though, and the
answer is (although the question is senseless; you can't "have") "no
marbles."
Jno B. : jbrawley@creation.org (GenesisNet<-->Internet Gate)
: jbrawley@jcn1.com (ISP account)
: FidoNet: 1:100/435.1 GenNet 33:6250/1.1
* Origins Talk BBS / M.A.C., St. Louis, MO, (314) 821 1078 *
... Creative balderdash can be interesting for its own sake...
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: The Quantum Sword (1:100/435.1)
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|From: George L. Harper
|To: Alec Grynspan
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 20 Mar 97 22:08:52
EID:cf8d 2274b100
MSGID: 1:104/447 2817944d
TID: GE 1.1+
AG> No Jew believes in Jesus. Period.
Is that "no Jew" as in a follower of the Judaic teachings or in
a person of the Jewish ethnic group? If the former, then I am
forced to agree with you, because he is no longer a Judaist if he accepts
Christ as the Messiah. However, if you are saying no Israelitic semite
believes that Christ is the Messiah, there is a long line thruout history,
from Saul of Tarsus, and many of the San Hedrin, to uncounted thousands
across the world today. I'd name a few, but you've never heard of these
folks as they are local to Denver, so you would merely accuse me of
inventing them. (You probably will, anyhow, but at least I save the typing)
AG> As for "Completed Jew", that's a Jew who knows that Jesus Christ is
AG> a myth.
If you check it out, historically...they may believe that Christ's
claim to deity, or His having risen from the grave are fictitious,
but they do acknowledge that He *DID* live and that He had extra-
ordinary charisma, attracting enough of a following that they plotted
and achieved His death to stifle potential rebellion...Also, shortly
after His birth, Herod was sufficiently certain of His identity to
order the "Slaughter of the Innocents"...That, too, is a matter of
empiric historical record.
AG> GH> No, I don't...do YOU know...REALLY...how many times
AG> GH> CHRISTIANS were
AG> GH> involved in this sort of affair? Be sure that you aren't
AG>