God Damned Fundies!
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Staal wants to know.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:59:06
EID:8a93 2281af60
MSGID: 1:124/9005 33418548
PID: GEDW32 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, DAVID!
Dies solis March 30 1997, Dixit DAVID RICE ad DAN CEPPA:
DC>> Your next checkup is long over due. Go see Nurse Ratchet
DC>> for your lobotomy.
DR> LOL!
I'd pay good money to watch Staal yank the water fountain from the floor.
"We want to watch the fucking World Series!"
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Quentin Fai
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:01:22
EID:5149 2281b020
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Quentin!
Martis dies April 01 1997, Dixit George Harper ad Quentin Fai:
GH> that, I WILL go to Heaven. My God doesn't care if there are any other
GH> gods, and won't deny me my reward because one of those others fools
enough
GH> people to be selected the true god by popular vote...My God doesn't
hold
GH> office by election...His is a lifetime position, and all the other gods
GH> give homage to Him.
Damn, I wish Steve Rose was around to sing his "My god's better than your
god" song.
You can't pay for entertainment this good. The smug posturing is something
right out of Saturday Night Live or SCTV.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Colorado School of Mines
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:04:16
EID:5eb3 2281b080
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Salue, Don!
Martis dies April 01 1997, Dixit Don Martin ad George Harper:
DM> So, George, the man asks for details. Got any? The place
DM> where you heard this (one begins to suspect the Weekly World
DM> News) might be a start, or the name of the researcher who
Oh, oh! I know!
Uh, was it "From a minister on a Florida radio station?" Or was it "From
a guy who was arrested for praying in a restaurant?"
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Freedom of choice
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:23:20
EID:e218 227e62e0
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> Yeah, right, Ken. What colour is the sky in your world?
> Green!!!
> Purple!!!
Hey, if getting power away from the religious reich was as easy as pulling
tokens out of a bucket, I'd be more than willing to give it a shot.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Fundyskool logic
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:24:24
EID:7743 227e6300
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> I got a better one for you. Rod's and my friends down in Houston
CH>> are a married couple called "Pat" and "Dale."
> Shhh. You will awake the Houstonians :)
Oh! Sorry.. *tiptoes around the sleeping Houstonians, whose favourite
hockey team only seems to lose when cubby and bear are in the stands
cheering for the other side...*
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: hateful
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:32:12
EID:133d 227e6400
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>> I disagree. It is possible to be a bigot without having religious
>> dogmatism to assist to prop up such bigotry.
CH>> It's possible, but again, it falls to utter irrationality. The closest
CH>> thing I've ever heard to a non-religiously based bias against
CH>> homosexuality was its "lack of aesthetic appeal," whatever the hell
CH>> that might be.
> Many non-Christians hate homosexuality. They just find it disgusting.
> No religious basis for it, but rather, moral basis for it. One can
> have the same general morals without being a Christian.
Well, for starters, here's another for the Quote File, Brother Fredric.
"One can have the same general morals without being a Christian." Ken Young.
On to the meat of the matter. "Finding something disgusting" is not the
same as having a moral opposition to it. I find taking drugs disgusting,
but I'm not morally opposed to others doing so. Nor do I hate those who
do. I just don't get around them when their high. There's a vast difference
between a moral value and a personal taste. Unless you're a subjectivist,
in which case you wouldn't be wasting my time trying to argue God all over
the place because you'd fully accept that there's no such thing as a
standard of moral value.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: ARROGANCE
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:34:22
EID:edb9 227e6440
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> George and Christopher were killing time yakking about ARROGANCE:
CH>> At that point, I fully expect to be cast into Hell, whereupon I think
CH>> that I'll probably be recruited for their computing staff. Of course,
CH>> punch cards and COBOL for eternity would be a pain in the ass, but
CH>> then, this IS Hell, isn't it?
> No, love, YOUR personal hell will involve being stuck in IRC chat
with
> a bunch of people trying out mIRC COLORS...and you on a UNIX
> machine....
But, Lynda dear, I can still use /ignore in IRCII. :) No.. if hell had a
UNIX box, it wouldn't be hell.
"In the Beginning, God created Dennis. Dennis was unimpressed with God,
so God made Brian. Brian was bored with God, so Brian and Dennis made
UNIX, and God saw that it was good. But then God became jealous, because
UNIX was cooler than God, so God made Bill..."
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:35:52
EID:a107 227e6460
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> Right now, we don't have the same rights that heterosexuals do. We
can
CH>> be, and have been, denied the right to seek redress of damages when
CH>> our loved ones die. We've been denied custody of our partner's
CH>> children.
CH>> I personally have been denied access to my husband's bedside when he
CH>> was in the hospital.
> I think there's a cure for that. At least, my sister and Chris
> have found one that works in Oregon, at least. They signed
> Powers of Attorney for Health Care, each giving the other the
> power of attorney over all health decisions when they are
> hospitalized. Now there is no way anybody can keep them from
> each other when they are hospitalized, as they are the ones
> making the medical decisions.
That would be a cure for one problem, in one state, but if we moved,
we'd have to fill out a new one, for every different state. And not
every state provides that option. Also, that's only one of the 1,049
rights that mixed-sex marriages have that same-sex marriages can't
get.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Re: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:39:46
EID:8b41 227e64e0
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> No one formed it. Cells didn't spontaneously crop up out
CH>> of nowhere. Scientists have demonstrated that if you expose
CH>> an organic "soup" of methane, carbon, oxygen and water to
CH>> electricity, you will get spontaneous formations of
CH>> _amino_acid_ block.
> You show all the signs of being a victim of indoctrination
> and of outrageous HALF-TRUTHS! There WERE many things formed
> in those "scientific" experiments including traces of some
> Amino Acids. However NONE of the amino acids were the right
> sorts required for life.
None? You just said below that some did form. Contradiction.
> What you have NOT been told, apparently, it that all such
> experiments produce a mixture of left-handed and
> right-handed Amino acids, as do ALL natural chemical
> reactions, but all life as we know it has only the
> LEFT-HANDED version of these amino acids and cannot possibly
> work with even a TRACE of the right-handed form.
Not contested; I'm not a biologist.
> Science knows of NO way that any natural chemical reaction
> could produce 100% purified forms of these chemicals and
> thus scientists have only "demonstrated" that the origin of
> life cannot POSSIBLY have occured by NATURAL processes!
Scientists have certainly demonstrated its possibility. Did or did
not left-handed amino acids form in such reactions?
Probability is another issue, but look at the time scale that we
have to work with.
CH>> Amino acids are, if you don't remember, the building
CH>> blocks of proteins.
> In terms of the above that is a glorious half-truth which
> is effectively a blatant mis-truth! What we now know about
> proteins is not only that they MUST be of 100% left handed
> amino acids, but they use ONLY a special and distinct number
> of these amino acids - TWENTY in all and NO other.
If I were feeling bored, I could get my mother to break out one of
her texts and look them up for me. I'm not quite feeling that bored
yet, but yes you are correct, though I wonder if it's exactly 20.
I'll grant, however, that it's some finite number.
> Further more you were ENTITLED to have been told - but
> apparently were NOT told - that these twenty amino acids need
> to be assembled in a specific order to make useful proteins.
> This too is utterly impossible to occur in "nature" and
> again shows that all life was a most carefully DESIGNED
> machine!
Impossible? Or merely improbable. You confuse the two. Try again,
Laurie.
And next time, don't shout at me. I feel like I'm being lectured by
William Shatner.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Re: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:44:32
EID:8b41 227e6580
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> Proteins are, if you don't
CH>> remember, one of the fundamental building blocks in cell
CH>> structure.
> Again a typical half-truth and gross simplification that
> students are given and thereby mislead and misinformed!
> There are thousands of DIFFERENT proteins in living things
> and each one is specific and precise - just the same as in
> any complex machine, if it is going to work at all.
Not being contested. There are thousands of different proteins
in living things.
CH>> There's no need for a supreme being anywhere in the
CH>> equation.
> If you were given any sensible and honest understanding
> of the facts, you would see that INTELLIGENT DESIGN (by what
> ever Designer you like to suggest) is the one major
> discovery that science has made in this matter. At every
> stage in the origin of life it is abundantly clear that
> great expertise and scientific understanding and technology
> is paramount and essential.
Laurie, you've granted the possibility of its occurance. What you're
ignoring is its probability. However, the instant you have a self-
replicating system, the probablity of replication goes way up. So,
once you have one, the rest is, as they say, child's play. Or perhaps
it took 10. Or a hundred. Or a billion. But it took some finite number
of occurances before a self-replicating model appeared, and at that
point everything was set. No intelligent designer is needed anywhere
in the system.
> The more we research this matter the more it demonstrates
> that a natural origin of life it utterly impossible. As far
> back as 1955 this was thought to be the case, but since then
> atheist scientists have desperately and unsuccessfully
> searched for a natural explanation, but have now admitted
> that their quest looks hopeless! i.e.;
Uh, if the experiment can be successfully repeated, then doesn't
that show that it is possible, however improbable? And since it
did happen, isn't the probability rather moot? All that has to
happen is that enough of the right type get created at once. Any
byproducts or extraneous compounds created in the process aren't
going to do anything unless their directly detrimental to the system
itself.
> 'A general review of prebiological evolutionary theories
> in 1988 by Klaus Dose concluded that "At present all
> discussions on prinicipal theories and experiments in the
> field either end in stalemate or in a confession of
> ignorance." Gerald Joyce's 1989 review article ended with
> the somber observation that origin of life researchers have
> grown accustomed to a "lack of relevant experimental data"
> and a high level of frustration.'
> (Darwin on Trial, Phillip E. Johnson, 1991. page.107.)
Would you please cite the credentials of Dose, Joyce, and Johnson?
> A 1996 book entitled; Darwin's Black Box, by Michael J.
> Behe, confirms this same picture. The rational explanation
> of life is that it necessarily requires an Intelligent
> Designer! THAT is what science has really found! Those who
> try to agrue otherwise are simply showing that they have
> been misled and poorly informed!
Would you please cite the credentials of Behe?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Re: Missing Links.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:54:22
EID:cacb 227e66c0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
>> "In the fossil record, missing links are the rule: ....The
>> more scientists have searched for the transitional forms that
>> lie between species, the more they have been frustrated."
>> (Newsweek, 3rd. November, 1980, p. 54)
CH>> Any creature with a sufficient number of differences
CH>> from a given species is labeled as a different species.
> Are you suggesting that even when these two "different
> species" can interbreed and produce fertile offspring they
> are STILL called different species? If that is the case
> then would you tell me how many "species" of DOGS that we
> know of?
That isn't what I said. Read it again, Laurie. "Any creature with a
sufficient number of differences from a given species is labeled as
a different species." There is, so far as I know, only one species
of "dog" (canus domesticus). Everything under that is too close to
be called a separate species. And dogs and wolves are still cofertile
and can interbreed, producing fertile offspring, yet dogs and wolves
are of two different species (canus domesticus, canis lupus). Same
with coyotes (canus latrans). Any two creatures within the same genus
are going to be fertile with each other (so far as I know, and I'm
not a biologist so I may be vastly mistaken here), though whether
or not the offspring is fertile depends on the degree of distance
between the species of the parents.
CH>> There's no such thing as a "transitional form" because
CH>> evolutionary theory concerns itself with discrete steps. The
CH>> continuous steps between those discrete points are all
CH>> counted as microevolutionary advancements, and don't get
CH>> counted as new species.
> Perhaps you are trying to tell me that this view has
> RECENTLY replaced that view that was believed and taught for
> over 120 years. Is that what you are saying? Were you ever
> taught about the famous peppered moth? It has been claimed
> to be a major evidence of EVOLUTION IN ACTION, has it not?
I heard about the peppered moth, yes. Change from white to grey and
back within 50 years' time. And to my understanding, that's always
been evolutionary theory's background.
> ("The Panda's Thumb", The Episodic Nature of Evolutionary
> Change, S.J. Gould, (1987 reprint), p. 151)
Please cite the credentials of S.J. Gould.
CH>> *baffle* Did you ever pass your 7th grade life sciences
CH>> class?
> Your problem seems to be that you never learned anything
> SINCE then!
I'm not a biology major. I'm a computer science major. Tell me,
just what is your field of study, that you claim to know so much,
yet appear to understand so little?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: You win. Staal lost. And it was _easy_.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:56:02
EID:5431 227e6700
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
fr>> Strange. I received no response.
fr>> WHY DOESN'T VEGR ANSWER?
ch>> VEG'R is waiting for direct input from what it thinks is
ch>> the Creator. Anybody want to reach inside Jimson and
ch>> reprogram him from the inside-out?
> _I'm_ not getting my hands dirty. This sounds like a job of Rod
> Swift! }:-}
He better not; I don't wanna have to clean Jim's cooties off of my
husband! :)
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: CE
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:59:34
EID:550f 227e6760
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
>>> When my sons and I are stopped at a train crossing, we count the cars.
>>> I'm often one off because I often inadvertantly start from 0. It's
a
>>> habit.
ch>> I sympathise. I've been using C for so long that I start
ch>> counting everything at 0 when I'm not thinking about it.
> Imagine how much worse it could get being addicted to APL. Then
> you'll have to check to see what your []IO is set to to know where
> your Quad origin is.
I haven't got an APL overlay in VI, but
2=(+/[2]0=(iN)o.|(iN)))/iN
will get you the all prime numbers between 1 and N (where o is the degree
symbol and i is the iterator function). *grin* I may not be addicted to
APL,
but I know it (kinda sorta).
> Have you looked into J from I. P. Sharp?
No, not yet. I've got to get used to C++ from C first. I've done Java,
though, so it shan't take me long I don't think. Right now, I'm just more
interested in graduating with my sanity intact.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:08:50
EID:477f 227eb900
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JS>> RS> jim you are a complete looser
JS>> And, pray tell, oh erudite one, what does a 'looser' do? Untie those
JS>> who are bound in sin?
> No, but even my brother thinks you're a dork. :) :) He was the
> one who wrote the message to you (as written in the message).
Which one was it? Graham or Courtney?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Ha!
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:14:54
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RS>> You are a proven liar.
> You, sir, are a liar, even as your man Satan is the father of lies.
I
> denied using 'gooks'. Read and learn.
There you go again, putting words and ideas into my husband's head.
Where do you keep getting these silly notions that there's this big
bad nasty evil thing that my husband worships? You keep saying that
my husband is a follower of Satan, and yet we tell you repeatedly
that atheists don't worship any supreme being, on any side of that
debate.
Jim, I'm starting to think that you're a troll. I can't believe (I
don't want to have to believe) that anyone could be as willfully
ignorant. But I'm probably going to have the same results as I did
with Allen Newton. *sigh* My optimism will be the death of me one
day.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Ha!
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:18:36
EID:6876 227eba40
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JS>> Just truth here, no evidence of 'homophobia'.
RS>> Truth? So you claimed this is reality, truth, proven, existent?
> Absolutely.
He said truth, Jim. Not Bible-parroting.
RS>> So you are willing to provide the evidence to prove this
RS>> statement? Please cite your scientific references in reputable
RS>> scientific journals. Thank you.
> No scientific journals needed here. Just common sense. The Bible
says
> he who unrepentantly practices such things, sins. Unforgiven sins
> result in condemnation. The end.
You've yet to establish that the Bible is a credible source.
RS>> Whatever you opine, idiot Jimson.
> I find it very interesting how you use your alleged 'better
> education': verbal abuse. Speaks volumes about your self esteem.
Jim, my husband doesn't mince words. If he called you an idiot, then
to his best reckoning, you're an idiot. Or else you're doing a damn
good impersonation of one.
RS>> because, naturally, you have no objectivity.
> I can be very objective.
You've never been objective in any argument you've ever made. What you
have been is deliberately misleading. Every proposition you've made has
been based on the unstated premises (axioms) that your God exists, and
that your interpretation of the Bible is accurate. Without those two
tenets, you're completely lost. And even granting the first, without the
second there's still a wide margin for error.
But you sit around ignoring those facts, because they're inconvenient
to worry about.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:28:16
EID:11b4 227ebb80
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> Carefully read his line. There are _two_ questions there. I answered
> the lastmost. Were I to answer the first, it'd be "no black marbles,"
> avoiding "zero black marbles" just as you say. Is zero one of the
> black ones? No. Is it one of the white ones? No. Is it _present_?
> It is in some people's twisted version of the discrete "number" line
> I'm trying to explore.
Even the discrete number line has a zero point.
> Correct, in _my_ version. But there'd be 5 white AND one 'grey'
> ("zero") marble left, in his.
Which is six. 11-5=6. That's still internally consistent. If you're counting
the fact that they're marbles, then thre are 11 marbles. It doesn't matter
whether you label them -5 to 5, A to K, or with 11 of the 12 zodiac signs.
There are 11 of them. And if you take 5 away, you have 6 left. It doesn't
matter which six; you'll have six remaining.
Subtraction of a single element involves a process:
1) remove one element
2) Advance the pointer to the next element
3) Count off "one"
What is being counted is not the elements, but the number of times the
pointer moves. The answer to the subtraction problem is equal to the
value to which the pointer is currently referencing.
Look at your line again.
[-5][-4][-3][-2][-1][0][+1][+2][+3][+4][+5]
Start at 5. Subtract five. That means that you will remove one element,
advance your pointer down one, and count off. When you count off five
times, you will have shifted your pointer from +5 to +4, then from +4 to
_3, then from +3 to +2, then from +2 to +1, then from +1 to 0. The answer
to 5-5 is 0, John. Your pointer is pointing at the grey marble which
references zero in this model.
> (A) In the "number line," between any two neighbor (dimensionless)
> points there are an infinite number of points. (And between any two
of
> those, an infinite number, and between any two of THOSE....(etc. ad
> infinitum).)
> (B) In the discrete line of points, between any two neighbor
> (dimensionless) points there are NO, NONE, NOT ANY points.
> It's that simple. 100% of this thread's argument seems to arise from
> one guy trying to think in one system while the other guy is thinking
> in the OTHER system.
No, it's that one guy is trying to call the two systems identical, and the
rest of us are saying that he first guy is full of shit.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jesus needed...
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:28:38
EID:e4e7 2281ab80
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Make *up* your mind, Jimson.
> My mind is made up. You cannot/will not change it.
"Don't bother me with facts; my mind is made up." Jim, I could care
less what the book says. Your faith is strong enough that regardless
of interpretation suggested by my husband or anyone else, you'll simply
say "No" or "You are in error" or "You are wrong" or some other phrase
that indicates your unwillingness to even consider a possible alternative
explanation for the passages in your book.
I really do pity you, Jim.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Bathroom Staal knows wha
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:32:24
EID:37f2 2281ac00
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JS>> RS> These things happened because you shouted out that you
JS>> RS> were black. If you had kept your negroidism to yourself,
JS>> RS> these things would not have happened to you now, would
JS>> RS> they?
JS>> RS> -- Idiot Jimson logic, as applied racially.
JS>> This argument is an insult to blacks everywhere.
> It is no sin to be Black.
And by substituting "gay" for "black" above, suddenly it becomes
a valid statement? How about if we put "Christian" in instead? What
then?
RS>> So it's horrendous to apply your words in a racial parallel (in
RS>> my example) to black people if one was to suggest that the
RS>> bashings and beatings blacks get is because they are vocal in
RS>> their demands for equality...
> Not at all.
So it isn't horrendous to apply your words in a racial parallel?
Please be very specific in your words, Jim. I'd hate to think that
you really mean this. But I wouldn't be overly surprised.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Book Theft
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:35:26
EID:890c 2281ac60
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> He chose to exercise his religious right to get married before
RS>> his church.
> No religious right.
His church recognised his marriage to his husband. Religious freedom
is one of the fundamental rights in this country.
RS>> How would you like it if someone wanted to sack you because of
RS>> your religion?
> Being gay is not a 'religion'.
But being religious is a choice.
RS>> You are the one actively resisting any change in the law to allow
RS>> EQUALITY to exist.
> Noh. I haven't written any letters...yet. :) Besides, you have jthe
> same rights in the USA as have I. You can marry any woman you choose.
And before Loving v. Virginia, white people had the right to marry any
white person they chose. And in Germany under the Neuremburg Laws, Jewish
people had the right to marry any Jew they chose. How is that so different
from this that you condemn those, and not this?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Book Theft
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:57:52
EID:890c 2281af20
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> So we will see you lobbing in Lansing, MI, to overturn the
RS>> Christian and their attempts to legislate their morality into
RS>> secular civil law when they want to ban something that doesn't
RS>> even exist -- same sex marriage?
> Why ban something that currently doesn't exist?
That's something that you should perhaps ask your federal Congresscritter,
considering they wasted time last session to pass DOMA. Or the 20 states
that have now explicitly banned same-sex marriages.
RS>> States make marriage laws. Do you believe they should
RS>> immediately expand marriage rights to cover gays?
> Gays have the same marriage rights as I.
And before Loving v. Virginia, everyone had the right to marry someone
of the same race. Sound familiar?
RS>> If you don't think the US has the right to have religion
RS>> influence secular law, does this mean you support the RESCISSION
RS>> of the Defense of Marriage Act?
> I don't know what that is. But if it is what I think it is, never.
So, here you say you're against repealing a ban on something thst
doesn't yet exist, but above you say you don't understand why someone
would ban something that doesn't exist.
Makes a lot of sense, Jim. Not.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:59:38
EID:c167 2281af60
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Please, oh please, can I slobber over your love tryst?
> Are you just the exception or do all gays read filthy illicit sex into
> everything?
Ye gods, Jim. Can you not hear the sarcasm practically dripping from
that sentence? Are you just the exception, or do all Christians think
of people in stereotypes?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: A question...
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:03:16
EID:991b 2281b060
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Since the removal of the gender restrictions in marriage will not
RS>> affect you whatsoever, why do you not support the removal of such
RS>> restrictions?
> Because it will affect me. The judgement of God upon my country will
> also affect me.
How will it affect you? You state that it will, but offer no explanation
or justification for such a position. As for the other half, I neither
understand nor care; I'm not Christian and don't pretend to follow those
guidelines. I have my own moral code by which I run my life, and don't
need a wet-nurse or overbearing mystic father figure to tell me when to
wipe my nose.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Re: Misunderstanding?
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:07:38
EID:fb15 2281b0e0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> I do not see where Roger is coming from. Concealing ones'
> illness is one thing; not telling a lover one has NIV is
> another. The two are utterly different--- the original
> complain was my objection to THE GODDAMNED STATE keeping
> a database of NIV-positive victims, =NOT= personal lovers
> being "deceived" by lack of this knowledge.
NIV-positive? Has the Bible become a disease now? :)
Not that I'm contesting this position, mind you.. religion certainly
does spread like a virus. In fact, many belief systems can be said
to follow a viral model of spreading, with focal points of infection
(churches), carriers (philosophy majors who hang out with religious
friends), etc..
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: ARROGANCE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:11:48
EID:e855 2281b160
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> Now, I repeat my challenge...what will you do when you find out I made
> the correct choice?
First of all, it's _if_, not _when_. Second, I'll do exactly what I said
I would. Tell God off for his insolence and stand unrepentant before him.
If the supreme being you worship is so petty as to force me to my knees
to assuage his own ego, then that being is nothing but a petty tyrant and
dictator who deserves no worship.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:13:52
EID:0f74 2281b1a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> If you want to disarm an atheist, agree that he does indeed have the
> right to demand hard evidence; then you present that evidence; then
> dare him to DISPROVE it. He'll get so irate, he will lose what
> little rationality he had. Then you step in and say "it's okay,
God
> loves you, and I forgive your taunts and insults. AND I pray that
> you may someday be as intelligent as you claim.f
Then, by all means, if you have such evidence, present it! I for one would
revel in the chance to witness one of these alleged miracles that proves
the existence of a god, any god whatsoever!
Why is it every time I ask for evidence, I get crap that must be prefaced
with "this won't mean a thing to you unless you accept it as true before
I show it to you"?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George L. Harper
|Sub: Re: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:21:40
EID:36af 2281b2a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> News Flash: you should read Hitler's own words for a debunking of
RS>> your news flash! :)
> If you are going to accept Hitler's claim to innocent motivations
> because he uttered the statments in that claim, why do you have a
> problem accepting that what God proclaims in HIS statementsis equally
> true? A case of selective idiocy from the ranks of the Astute
> Atheists? A VERY blatant double standard, seems to me...hehehehe
So far as I know, God hasn't proclaimed anything. A lot of people have
made proclamations in the name of God, but I've never once heard or
seen anything God said or did. I'm sure if he did, Readers' Digest would
have a condensed version out within the week and then the world would
know about it.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:35:52
EID:8367 2281b460
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KY>> I am not God, and thus, do not claim to have all
KY>> the answers, but yes,
KY>> everything He made, there is a reason for.
KD>> Then he made a certain percentage of his people homosexual. There must
KD>> be a reason for that.
> There is a reason.. He didn't.
Then this God of yours didn't make anyone heterosexual either. He just
made them, and sexuality arose later on. In that case, it isn't an issue
over which God must worry about much. You can't have it both ways. If
homosexuality is a choice, then so is heterosexuality. If heterosexuality
is innate, then so is homosexuality. Pick one or the other, but stop trying
to sit on the fence.
And you never did tell me what the big deal is about it being a choice
in the first place. I mean, so what?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:45:42
EID:7a07 2281b5a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> The number of blocks between X and X+N, inclusive of endpoints, is
> always X-N+1. That is, was, and always shall be the case.
*sigh* This should be N+1. One of these days I'll learn to proofread my
own material...
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Mark O'neill
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:48:06
EID:b60e 2281b600
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KY>> I won't make a judgement on oral sex, as I am not sure. But anal sex
KY>> would be very unnatural, yes.
BB>> Why is it unnatural, Ken?
> Well, according to those that I know that have tried it, it is quite
> painful. Sex should be of pleasure, not pain.
Then they weren't doing it right. The only times it's ever hurt me is when
the angle is wrong. And as for pleasure and pain, I'm not a masochist, but
there are those that will disagree with that assessment.
> Plus, I would think it be more of an awkward way to have sex.
No more awkward than a man and a woman having sex.
> And come on.. Put that WHERE?!? I don't think so.. :)
You just don't have any imagination. :)
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Ha!
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:52:28
EID:6876 2281b680
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> I'm sorry, Jimson. Do I need to remind you of your claim that I
RS>> chose my sexual orientation, all those months ago? What about on
RS>> the echo? Huh?
> If you choose to delude yourself in claiming you didn't choose your
> lifestyle, fine. I will let that one lie. You have to admit, though,
> that you choose to remain in it.
As though he, or I, would _want_ to leave it. Jim, I'm going to assume
for the moment that you love your wife. If someone came along and told
you that for the good of your soul, you had to leave her and never have
sex with her again, would you?
RS>> You can't play both sides of the issue. Either justify your
RS>> claims about me that you have failed to justify, or retract them.
> The justification is obvious. No retraction will be made.
Jim, the only justification you have is your Bible, and that doesn't
count as valid in the eyes of anyone here that isn't Christian. Therefore,
as far as we're concerned, the justification is NOT obvious.
RS>> I'm sure Christopher can devise a list of demands for the
RS>> reparations of crimes against people like myself. He could start
RS>> on the list of your crimes against me, no?
> I have committed no 'crimes' against you or anyone else other than
> myself.
You've accused my husband of being afraid of your biblical rantings.
You've accused my husband of following Satan, both knowingly and
unknowingly.
Those two will do for a start.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Book Theft
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:54:20
EID:890c 2281b6c0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> Sorry. Practicing homosexuality and the murder of the unborn does/will
> affect me. I tolerate it to the extent I don't hate or treat in an
> anti-social manner those involved in it, but I don't like it and
> believe both are wrong.
But _how_ do they affect you? You've said several times that they do,
but you've never shown how. And your business about God judging the
nations, while valid in your head, isn't going to carry any weight
with me. You've got the right to believe what you like, but you don't
have the right to inflict those beliefs on others.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:56:28
EID:6346 2281b700
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> He is. Does he consider that his religious right-wing colleagues
RS>> are yet again trying to kill the federal ENDA?
> Why do we need 'special' rights for gays?
Because they're not "special rights," Jim. They're to prevent anyone
from being fired or not hired on the basis of sexual orientation.
That means heterosexuality too.
RS>> For the past 22 congressional sessions, the Employment
RS>> Non-Discrimination Act has been introduced and rejected. This
RS>> year, it will be reintroduced.
> And be rejected...
It only failed by one vote in the Senate last time. Hopefully this
time we'll have less fearmongering and more logic in the arguments.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:03:08
EID:14cc 2281b860
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D]
> 2BCE 1BCE "0year" 1CE 2CE 3CE
> -2 -1 0 0 1 2 3 (??)
> Where does the zero POINT belong?
Because you're dealing with a discrete system, the whole year IS the
point.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George L. Harper
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:11:48
EID:2050 2281b960
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KD>> Then he made a certain percentage of his people homosexual. There must
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And you, I presume, DO have evidence to support your claim?
>
I can only speak personally, but I know I never chose to be gay. As
far as theology goes, then if God is all-powerful, then God must've
made us this way (positing God for the purposes of this discussion).
Certainly you're not going to say that Satan is as powerful as God,
are you?
If homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality is a choice. If
heterosexuality is innate, then homosexuality is also innate. It
can't logically cut both ways.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:19:08
EID:0a02 2281ba60
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KW>> It just goes to show where your values are.
> Oh yes! I love performing abortions too. If you partially birth
> them, the foetuses scream as you pierce the backs of their neck.
> I even suck out the brains by siphoning it out with my mouth.
> It allows one to blow it back in and hence scramble the brains
> before finally removing them!
"Babies. Fun to make, fun to eat!"
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: USA CyberCensor's Law
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:22:20
EID:7bab 2281bac0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
FR>> The KKK, Aryan Nations, Cross and the Sword, Focus on
FR>> the Family -- They're ALL Christanic death cult
FR>> organizations, you fucking idiot!
> Really.. Do tell, how many people has the group, Focus On The Family
> killed?
Directly or indirectly? Directly, probably very few. Indirectly, every
homosexual teen that's committed suicide because of their parents' or
their peers' religious rejection is in part on their heads.
> And do you really think that the KKK and Aryan Nations follow the
> teachings of Christ?
They claim to. I have no reason to think otherwise.
FR>> You yourself know you're a homophobic,
> That would mean I was afraid of homosexuality.
Then we'll call it what it is: homohatred. That would be the appropriate
word as coined by the authors of the book "After the Ball."
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:23:06
EID:d518 2281bae0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
FR>> Previously you demanded that homos aren't Christians.
FR>> A review of the incidents of known child rape is by
FR>> ___CHRISTIANS___. (Reference SOF.TXT is available --
FR>> Sins of the Fathers.)
> The majority of cases of child rape are examples of sodomy, which
> tells me that most are likely gay.
Evidence? Please, some citations would be nice...
> Now, how do we know that most are Christians? ANyone could say that,
> you know.
And I, as an atheist, have no reason to think otherwise.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Accepting Reality
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:24:00
EID:789d 2281bb00
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> I want to know why Ken Wiens thinks homosexuals are *born* and
RS>> can *be in heaven*! :) :) Ken Young, care to ask the same
RS>> questions of your 'brother'?
> Does it really matter? It is just one of those theological
> differences. As long as the basics are there, it really doesn't
> matter if one Christian differs a little with the other stuff from
> another Christian.
Who is and who isn't going to be in heaven is a little difference?!?
Wow.. someone better bring back Simony. I could use this to my advantage.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: Wolff the Liar
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:46:31
EID:4742 22813dc0
MSGID: 1:123/67 3340bdc2
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
29 Mar 97 22:18, quoting Bill Wolff to Martin Goldberg:
MG>> Why did you claim that Carl Sagan supported creationism?
BW> ROTFL! I didn't claim that Carl Sagan supported creationism, you
BW> twit! I merely agreed with Sagan when he admitted that the fossil
BW> record could be consistent with a designer. And more importantly, it
BW> would be more logical to believe with "a Designer of a more remote
BW> and indirect temperament."
You're an Idiot and a Liar, Wolff
"The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
Designer" -- Carl Sagan
Here's the rest of the quote, in context:
"The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
Designer; perhaps some species are destroyed when the Designer becomes
dissatisfied with them, and new experiments are attempted on an
improved design. But this notion is a little disconcerting. Each
plant and animal is exquisitely made; should not a supremely competent
Designer have been able to make the intended variety from the start?
The fossil record implies trial and error, an inability to anticipate
the future, features inconsistent with an efficient Great Designer
(although not with a Designer of a more remotea and indirect
temperament)."
IOW, the designs were poor and were replaced by new, better designs.
You might suppose a non-omnipotent, non-omniscient designer (a sort of
village idiot godlet), but there exists a simpler, far more compelling
mechanism: evolution. You will, of course, fail to understand this,
because you're a village idiot yourself.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: THOMAS DELCANO
|Sub: easter
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:59:41
EID:c498 22813f60
MSGID: 1:123/67 3340c0c2
REPLY: 1:360/24 d21fe9bc
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
29 Mar 97 01:05, quoting THOMAS DELCANO to ALL:
TD> Jeruselm (UPI), Here again it is Easter time , as reporters and
TD> pilgrims gather at the tombof Jesus, waiting the dawn of Sunday when
TD> "Puxatawney" Christ will again arise, and if he sees sees his shadow
TD> we will have 2 more weeks of Basketball season.
Shit...I'd almost rather see Jesus than another two weeks of overpaid,
7ft. Mau-Maus running up and down the hardwood.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Brain-washed grovelers
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:37:06
EID:ab6f 228164a0
MSGID: 1:123/67 3341029e
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A303
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
30 Mar 97 18:32, quoting Ken Young to Quentin Fai:
KY> We are all sinners, and without Christ, are not fit to be in Heaven.
KY> It has nothing to do with your own self-esteen, it is just that the
KY> human race has a lot of wickedness, and does not deserve Heaven.
Gawd...you're a brain-washed little groveler, arent' you?
KY> But,
KY> God loves us so much, that He gives us the oppurtunity to be saved,
KY> nonetheless.
Why couldn't your myth-god get it right the first or second time,
Oh Sexless one?
KY> I am not saying I want them to go to Hell, just that that is the way
KY> it will be if one does not get saved.
Oh, but homos can't be saved, can they? Let's see, god creates these
individuals with all these feelings, feelings that the unanimous consensus
of medical professionals state cannot be changed, but if they continue
to act out these natural (for them) inclinations, they cannot be saved?
You're quite confused little virgin boy.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Staalin's child abuse
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:42:25
EID:c45c 22816540
MSGID: 1:123/67 334103d8
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A30E
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
30 Mar 97 23:38, quoting Ken Young to Fredric Rice:
KY> It is such a tragedy when mere discipline becomes thought of as "child
KY> abuse."
KY> SO, you do not believe any physical discipline is ever right?
There's a difference between a swat on the rear and beating the hell out
of a kid or jerking his arm out of the shoulder socket at the supermarket.
Mental discipline is much better. I've raised two well-behaved adults
without beating the hell out of them.
I remember one particular punishment that I inflicted upon my youngest son
for some breakdown in discipline. I made him take his school lunch in a
brown paper bag instead of buying lunch at the school. You see, brown
bagging was very "uncool" at the time and this little bit of punishment
made much more of an impression than beating him.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 01 Apr 97 18:00:34
EID:f42e 22819000
MSGID: 1:229/622 33414d43
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d765a
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Doug complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to J.j. <=-
DS> supposed to and they got their call traced. It wouldn't be the first
DS> time in history that a massive number of people have been killed to
DS> insure that the intended target was dead.
You were saying something about the Blue Council having disbanded?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 01 Apr 97 15:13:22
EID:a36d 228179a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33418afe
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d89450b
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to David <=-
GH> AND Stalin was an atheist, as well as Saddam Hussein...both have
Stalin learned his tactics at the seminary where he was studying for
the priesthood.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 15:16:24
EID:a0c5 22817a00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33418aff
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 5b899bbe
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Jim complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Karl <=-
JS> 'hey Joe, you married?' 'no' 'gotta girl friend?' 'no, I'm gay'.
JS> Just the answer 'no' was sufficient. Why add the rest?
Why was the 'gotta girl friend' thrown in?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 01 Apr 97 18:01:36
EID:1292 22819020
REPLY: 1:229/622 33414d43
CHRS: IBMPC 2
MSGID: 1:229/622 33414db7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Judith Bandsma to J.j. Hitt:
JB> -=> Doug complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to J.j. <=-
DS>> supposed to and they got their call traced. It wouldn't be the first
DS>> time in history that a massive number of people have been killed to
DS>> insure that the intended target was dead.
JB> You were saying something about the Blue Council having disbanded?
I figured he was just jealous because he missed the bus.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Pascal's Wager
|Date: 01 Apr 97 06:54:09
EID:3ebf 228136c0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 e40c1604
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d89450a
On (31 Mar 97) George Harper babbled to Marilyn Burge...
MB> Oh, hubris-laden one, many of the others who did not answer
MB> never read your original post. Do you actually think that we
MB> nonbeliever hang on every word you send into this VERY
MB> verbose echo? Dream on!
MB> I have no trouble accepting Pascal's Wager at all. I wager
MB> that when you're dead, you're dead. And consequently, that
MB> you have wasted your entire life on a fastasy that makes a
MB> mockery of your very humanness.
You have wasted your life by devoting it to a fantasy.
That seems plain enough to me.
Christianity itself is a mockery of humanity. It proclaims
that by accepting a fiction we can successfully deny our
humanity, such as quitting what we were born to be (i.e.,
gay, interested in providing for ourselves, willing to
deny the will to survive by "turning the other cheek," etc.)
MB> But, dream on. It's your life you're wasting, not mine.
GH> My OLR is gonna SCREAM..."TOO MUCH QUOTED MATERIAL"
GH> VERBOSE is aan almost inadequate understatement
GH> Thank you for your permission to go on wasting my life. Care
GH> to explain how wasting my life is a mockery of humanity? Or
GH> is it fantasizing that you say is a mocker of humanity?
GH> Either way, most human beings I've met in my 60 plus years do
GH> a LOT of both.
Nonbelievers waste their time, not their humanness, which is the
word that I used. Our humanity includes respecting others just
exactly the way they are, rather than pounding sand in their ears
about making themselves into something they aren't.
... Reality has limits; stupidity has none. - N. Bonaparte
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:15:59
EID:a228 228139e0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 51caefc0
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 1633d2fc
On (26 Mar 97) Karl Schneider babbled to Richard Smith...
RS> Ken Young said to Rod Swift about Exemplifying examples 1/:
RS> Certainly. So why complain about homosexuals and abortion?
RS> If you don't want a homosexual, don't seek one out. If you
RS> it that you claim that people digging in their backyards can
RS> hear sounds originating from Hell, when we've managed to
RS> drill over a mile into the Earth?
KS> Actually, I have personally assisted in drilling wells over 20,000
KS> feet deep...
Did you hear the screams of the damned?
... I have bursts of lady-like behavior; fortunately, they don't last.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:43:15
EID:1528 22813d60
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 9ce8fa8b
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333cf5e6
On (28 Mar 97) Don Martin babbled to Dave Hamilton...
DM> post to Ed Mills, I am interested in pieces from various
DM> people; the more I think about it, the more interested I get.
DM> What is _your_ take on what goes on here? Or on my lauching
DM> point, the difference in mind sets arising from growing up
DM> part of the majority or not? Or on whatever is most important
DM> to your mind right now?
DM> When I think about finding a publisher for a book "on
DM> HolySmoke" I shudder, but the _process_ of putting one
DM> together is exciting!
....and clearly shows just how lazy you really are. WE do all
the writing; all you have to do is a bit of proofreading and
compiling.
... I confess to an unatural, and abnormal act. I have programmed a computer.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:47:16
EID:1528 22813de0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 a773a952
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333d0033
On (29 Mar 97) Don Martin babbled to Curtis Johnson...
DM> Believe me, this one won't be going out the door anytime
DM> soon. I am also interested in accounts of how WOAs got that
DM> way. Right now I hypothesize highly individualized routes.
It's been a while since I posted my WOA beginnings. See next
message.
CJ> My expertise tends to be of the general variety, but I could
CJ> probably contribute an essay about Things Fundies Don't Know
CJ> About the History of the Bible (that early NTs have other
CJ> books in with the NT, that Revelation was rejected in the
CJ> East till the 7th century, etc.).
DM> Sounds like another chapter to me.
I think we need a small chapter on taglines, or perhaps a better
choice would be to include taglines as you go along that
succinctly state the point being made. You could use them as
paragraph headers along with verbiage in the beginning of the book
that states the paragraph headers are taglines filched from the
echo participants.
... Quaker threat: Pardon, brother--thou standst where I'm about to shoot!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Why I am a WOA
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:50:51
EID:ed19 22813e40
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 6730e175
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333d0033
My parents were both unchurched nominal believers. My
brother, however, regularly attended a Nazarene church,
which is VERY fundamentalist (and was probably even moreso
in those days, some 50 years ago).
I started attending with my brother, wondering what he
was doing every Sunday morning, and not wanting to miss
out on anything (typical "little sister" attitude, I'm
sure).
I eventually got "saved."
When I was fourteen, my father died. Within months, my
mother married my eldest sister's ex-husband. He was a
wifebeater and alcoholic, which is why my sister had
divorced him (the first divorce, ever, which was supposed
to be a shameful thing).
During these horrible times in my life, there was an altar
call at the church (I had not been attending much lately),
and some old biddy sidled up to me and whispered in my ear,
trying to "give me convictions" to "come forward." I told
her that if there were really a god, he would not have taken
my father away from, which had clearly torn my family completely
apart. Her response was that "god was lonely and needed [my
father's] company in heaven."
Never mind that, according to her beliefs, my father was being
barbequed as she spoke. I told her that god had millions upon
millions of people for company and I only had one father, who
had been taken from me. I told her that if her god was that
selfish, to take a 14-year-old's only father from her in order
to satisfy his own "need" for company, I wanted nothing to do
with him.
I floundered directionlessly for several years after that.
Then, I got married and put some direction my my life. When
I was in my late 30's I went back to work. There was an
officer in the organization I worked for who was an ACLU board
member. I admired him greatly. Without even knowing it, he
taught me the word "humanism." After learning a bit about
the American Humanist Association, I joined, and have felt
ever since like that is where I truly belong. There's no lonely
gods, just concerned, happy, productive people who believe
stronly in helping their fellow human beings. Right here on
Earth. With no heavenly rewards, but just the reward of knowing
they have done something helpful for another human being.
- 30 -
... Fundamentalism is merely stupidity raised to a higher power.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 15:30:12
EID:03eb 22817bc0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33417285
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d97c5be
George Harper said "FREEDOM OF CHOICE" to Karl Schneider,
adding:
KS> You are nothing more than a subhuman lying asshole.
GH> Poor Karl...he has a fixation on Assholes.
We all _knew_ there was a reason for Karl to take the
time to respond to this twit.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Long Strings of Posts
|Date: 01 Apr 97 15:32:26
EID:61ef 22817c00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33417286
Hi Gang,
Just a note of explanation about why you have recently
seen a whole wad of stuff from my keyboard all at once. No,
I am not trying for the Al Schroeder type-alike prize, but
have been a victim of circumstances here: the Fido feed to
my "home" BBS, the Nerve Center, died over the weekend. When
that happens, I go to Steve Rose's board to keep up.
However, I have found in the past that Steve's board often
has problems with _outgoing_ mail, so I have done a side
shift with the comments, to post them on the Nerve Center,
where 2-3 days' worth piled up before going anywhere.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Alec Grynspan
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:15:41
EID:5695 228139e0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33413ba1
REPLY: 1:2424/11 333ee71f
Hi Alec...
On 30 Mar 97 22:19:20, Alec Grynspan penned the following to Marilyn Burge
re: AHEM???
MB> It's also an ethnic identity, dimbulb. My son-in-law is an
MB> atheistic Jew. Like it or lump it. There are literally
MB> hundreds of thousands of them worldwide.
AG> However, there are no Christian Jews - period.
While the Jews may say that, there are very large "Jews for
Jesus" and "British Israelite" movements here in Calgary.
Are they not "Christian Jews", Alec?
John
... "Land of milk and honey?" Great...I'm a lactose intolerant diabetic.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 01 Apr 97 08:53:00
EID:c3ba 228146a0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 5f1306fd
JB> Why not? I used to live with a tattoo artist who had a set of
JB> cherries and the word 'Swan' tattooed on his. (No, I didn't
JB> get to hold it for him when he did it)
JB> First time I ever saw it, I was puzzled by the 'Swan', until
JB> he got hard and I realized the word was actually
JB> 'Saskatchawan'...his birthplace.
It may not be the _oldest_ joke in the world but it's certainly in
contention....
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:53:00
EID:5170 22813ea0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ bef316aa
AH> No, he becomes a Christian, which is non-Jewish. Judaism is a
AH> religion, not a race.
MB> It's also an ethnic identity, dimbulb. My son-in-law is an
MB> atheistic Jew. Like it or lump it. There are literally
MB> hundreds of thousands of them worldwide.
AG> However, there are no Christian Jews - period.
MB> Wrongo, bucko. There are Messianic Jews, and they recognize
MB> Jesus as the Messiah; therefore, they are Christians.
MB> Judaism is both a religion AND an ethnic identity. Period.
But Alan is contending that when you become a member of a new church
you cease to be a member of your original church. Try it with any
two other religions and it works all right. You can only insist that
a person remains a Jew after converting if you also insist that
religion and "race" are the same. (I put race in quotes because I
believe the concept to be deeply flawed.)
"Ethnic identity" is an equally hopeless concept. Is a person whose
family has lived in Scotland for four hundred years a Jew or a
Scot? Would the question be asked if the person in question was a
Catholic? (It's a fair question since neither religion is the norm
in Scotland.)
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 01 Apr 97 08:39:00
EID:3079 228144e0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 3060d91d
DS> I don't think these guys killed themselves. From newspaper
DS> accounts they were engaged in worthwhile activity. And, there
DS> was the report of a pungent odor present in the house. Of
DS> course, 39 bodies, all present in the same location, could
DS> raise QUITE a stink, depending upon how long these guys were
DS> dead before they were found. Still, I cast my vote for
DS> CYANNIDE GAS, delivered through the ventilation system. Since
DS> these guys were all computer whizzes, the chances are very
DS> good that one (or more of them) could have gotten hold of
DS> something they were not supposed to and they got their call
DS> traced. It wouldn't be the first time in history that a
DS> massive number of people have been killed to insure that the
DS> intended target was dead.
Who sneaked into the house to cover them with purple shrouds? Who
made the video tapes describing what they were going to do? Your
scenario has a good many holes in it. Do you _always_ leap to
conclusions before you know all the facts? Apparently.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Re: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 01 Apr 97 17:09:00
EID:586d 22818920
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33395858
In a message to David Rice <03-31-97 09:15> George Harper wrote:
GH> -=> Quoting George Harper <=-
GH>
GH> GH> (NEWS FLASH: Hitler was NOT a Christian...he was
GH> GH> a lunatic on the order of Jimmy Jones)
GH>
GH> DR> VALID NEWS FLASH: Hitler was a Christian--- he said so.
News flash for the intellectually challenged: Hitler was most certainly
NOT a
Christian. (These facts can be backed up by reading any biography of Adolf
Hitler, or by reading the recent history of Germany. But then again, I
am
making a great assumption here-----you CAN read, can't you, David?) Yes,
in
early life (as a child), he said he wanted to be a priest. (Real Christian
churches don't have formal priesthoods.) But when he took office, he tried
to
tell the German churches to eliminate much of the Bible from their teaching,
on grounds that it was mostly Jewish. Hitler also ordered the deaths of
thousands of Christians in addition to the six million Jews he ordered dead.
Adolf Hitler is NOT a Christian by any stretch of the imagination.
GH>
GH> DR> But then, so was the Rev Jim Jones.
Nope! Wrong again. At first, he made his message sound like the Gospel.
Th
en he did the wrong thing---he tried to oppose God. Then he did even
worse---he convinced over nine hundred people to kill themselves, because
he
knew his cause was lost.
Revisionist history at its finest. Sorry, but people who bother to READ
history for themselves won't buy it. Just as I didn't (and won't) buy it.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you long for a "Remote control" that would convert all the tissue-soaking,
male bashing TV movies to football games or fishing programs.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
* Origin: The Warrior's Path 915-659-2424 *Texas* V32b V42b (1:383/6293)
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: ...
|Date: 01 Apr 97 17:49:00
EID:3a3f 22818e20
MSGID: 1:383/6293 333961B4
In a message to Ken Young <03-30-97 22:43> Richard Smith wrote:
RS> REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333c5aae
RS> MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 333f32d4
RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> Ken Young said to Dave Hamilton about ...:
RS>
RS> DC> Just before Occam slices your foot off, try looking at the
RS> DC> far easier answer: Joseph fucked Mary's brains out one
RS> DC> night and she got pregnant.
RS> ky> Evidence?
RS> DH> That's how people get pregnant. Aren't you getting tired
RS> DH> of asking for evidence that you never accept? Did you
RS> DH> learn that from Jim Stall?
RS> ky> Funny, that is what I keep wondering about people like
RS> ky> you.
RS>
RS> Snappy retort. Doesn't require any thought, either. Too
RS> bad it's substantive . . .
RS>
RS> ky> You just ask for evidence of things when we both know
RS> ky> you would never accept any evidence.
RS>
RS> You BELIEVE, you don't know. Knowing it would require you
RS> to be able to read Dave's mind, since he's never stated
RS> anything of the kind. Since there IS a history of you
RS> ignoring evidence, whereas I can cite no examples of you
RS> even presenting evidence, let alone it being accepted, I'm
RS> afraid the preponderance of evidence in this example is
RS> against you.
RS>
RS> Thanx for playing, though. Here's a copy of the home game.
You've just been gonged, Richard. Here are some facts for you:
1. The Bible has been shown, time and again, to be at the very least a
reliable record of ancient history. Many of the events recorded therein
are
also recorded in works by other ancient historians, including (but not limited
to) Josephus. And the vast majority of modern-day historians regard the
Bible
as highly credible historically.
2. Dr. J. C. Grenda, former professor of geology at Angelo State University
in San Angelo, TX, who is most certainly NOT a Christian, taught in a
historical geology class (which I took and passed, mind you) that many of
the
miracles recorded in the Old Testament do have specific geologic evidences
to
support that they actually occurred. For example, a seaquake that was known
to have happened around the year 3000 B.C. in the Mediterranean was in fact
powerful enough to have caused the Red Sea to fold back or be split in the
manner described in the Book of Exodus.
3. The emergence of many false Christs and non-Christian prophets also
confirms the truth of the Bible. Jesus taught this almost 2,000 years ago.
It's been happening, at an ever-increasing pace, ever since.
4. Mark Ridley, zoologist at Oxford University, in "Who doubts evolution?"
NEW SCIENTIST, volume 90, 6/25/81, page 831, states, "In any case, no real
evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record
as
evidence in favor of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation."
Again, the weight of expert testimony is against that line of thought,
Richard.
RS>
RS> ky> ANd that is how most get pregnant. It is possible for a
RS>
RS> . . . if It exists . . .
Glad you finally acknowledge at least that a being who is God can do anything.
RS>
RS> ky> God that can do anything
RS>
RS> . . . allegedly, though It can't stop sin and needs a
RS> torture chamber and intimidation and fear to get people to
RS> do It's will . . .
Really? Let's back up and try it one more time. If you were a potter,
Richard, wouldn't you want to make the best piece of pottery you could?
What
would you do with the clay that you had to scrape off in order to shape
it
exactly the way you wanted? I know---you'd pat it on the head, say, "You
poor little thing, let's just clump you up and put you over here." Pretty
soon you'd be drowning in clay. No, you'd DISPOSE of it. We are the clay,
Richard!
RS>
RS> ky> to supernaturally put a baby
RS> ky> there, without sex ever occurring.
RS>
RS> How, exactly, would It do that? Since you and the other
RS> cretinists keep asking exactly how life started, how the
RS> "first `string' of DNA formed from the first atom," etc.,
RS> this is not too extreme a question to ask in return. Try to
RS> keep it under a thousand words, and use words that we can
RS> all agree on the definitions of, thank you.
Under a thousand words? Using words we can all agree on? OK. It's going
to
be difficult, but I'll try......ohh, this is SOOOO tough......God CREATED
either a sperm cell or a fertilized ovum in Mary's womb. Mary then carried
it
to full term, and when it was time for Jesus to be born, He was. (That
was
just soooo difficult. Thanks for the challenge.)
RS>
RS> ky> And no, Jim seems to generally accepts evidence.
RS>
RS> LOL . . .
RS>
RS> ky> Problem is, perhaps you have difficulty in being able
RS> ky> to comprehend exactly what that means.
RS>
RS> Exactly what WHAT means . . . accepting or evidence? Jimbozo
RS> doesn't even accept that he's a clear closet case, a sexist
RS> and a racist, a congenital liar that doesn't mind beating
RS> children, doesn't work, begs on an open forum, and is more
RS> `sinful' than a lot of Pagans I know.
RS>
RS> If he's your stunning example of shining Xtianity, I guess
RS> he won't tarnish if the truth be known, eh? Just don't be
RS> surprized that by his antics (and yours, and Harper's, etc.)
RS> are we forming the image of what we consider Xtians to be.
I tend to disbelieve you, Richard, because you paint all of us Christians
with
the same colors. Although I don't know Jim at all, and therefore am not
commenting about him personally, I think anyone reading any of your posts
regarding this Christian or that Christian ought to take them with several
grains of salt.
RS>
RS> ky> And what is wrong with the answer that God just did
RS> ky> something? If He is truly all powerful, then nothing
RS> ky> ie beyond Him.
RS> DH> Well, there's no evidence.
RS> ky> Only none that you will accept.
RS>
RS> Got ANY evidence at all? Present any _evidence_ of this,
RS> and we'll see. One is not obligated to accept what is
RS> offered if it clearly does not prove the point that the
RS> person is trying to prove. THAT is part of what the
RS> scientific method is all about . . .
See my above listed evidence, then. Also check out www.doesgodexist.org.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you don't go to a bar anymore, but would rather watch "Mash" reruns
instead.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Re: Homosexuality
|Date: 01 Apr 97 18:05:00
EID:65d0 228190a0
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33396566
In a message to Martin Goldberg <03-30-97 23:02> Richard Smith wrote:
RS> Have you thought to ask them?
RS>
RS> MG> "If called upon to counsel a homosexual, the
RS> MG> physician's approach should in no way differ from the
RS> MG> approach to a heterosexual. No attempt should bemade
RS> MG> to try and direct him inot a heterosexual behaviro
RS> MG> unless he specifically requests such help."
RS> ky> Again, opinions..
RS>
RS> Expert testimony by people in that field of endeavor, with
RS> much scholarship and education, which qualifies as evidence.
RS> Refuted.
RS>
RS>
RS> ky> Again, you have stated opinions from professionals,
RS>
RS> Exactly, expert testimony.
OK. Let me get this straight: you'll accept expert testimony that seems
to
verify your position, and you'll call the people who back you up "experts"
regardless of what their education and/or experience is. Yet when presented
with expert testimony from those who disagree with you, you'll go so far
as
to call them unqualified to speak on the subject even when presented with
the
ir credentials. Can we say BIASED???????
Seems to me that a while back I presented evidence that most
reputable scientists believe there could have been an intelligent Creator
of
the Universe, and every expert witness I presented was discounted. P.S.:
You
never answered my last post about Dr. Bradley. His background is NOT in
mechanical engineering, but rather in applied solid and liquid state physics
and chemistry. (You can verify that by EMailing him at
wbradley@mengr.tamu.edu.) Thus he is well-qualified to speak as an expert
on
thermodynamics and the origin of life. (Or could it be that you were afraid
to answer that post because you fear the truth? Don't fear it----it can
set
you free!)
- Pedit Ver 2.5
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
* Origin: The Warrior's Path 915-659-2424 *Texas* V32b V42b (1:383/6293)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:14:43
EID:d271 2281b9c0
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a46e
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Jim Staal <=-
RS> @MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333791c8
RS> * On 21-03-97 at 15:32, JIM STAAL wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER,
RS> on the topic of "Around the World in.. 2/" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> You can't fire someone for being gay.
JS> KS> You are a fucking liar.
JS> JS> What country do you live in? There _are_ laws against
JS> JS> discrimination, you know.
JS> KS> You are a moron.
JS> And you? How would you describe yourself?
RS> You fail to understand that Karl called you a moron because you
RS> failed to understand that in 41 states in the United States, it
RS> is QUITE legal to fire someone due to their sexual orientation,
RS> and the person has no right nor claim of job discrimination.
and would you list some evidence/examples of where and when it actually
happens?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: worship of torture
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:20:18
EID:ff6b 2281ba80
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a46f
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting ROBERT CURRY to JIM STAAL <=-
RC> And when you're one answering that (watch the evasion, folks -- do
RC> enjoy the show!), here's another:
RC> Why would you *worship* such a heinous torturer anyway?
RC> Because your grandfather did?
No, because God put it into my heart to do so. Happy now? Good enough
show for you? When does the applause start?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:21:04
EID:d1ee 2281baa0
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a470
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Jim Staal <=-
KD> @MSGID: 1:207/212 82944ad0
KD> On (25 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Either all religions are right or none are. Thus since the Christians
KD> believe they are the only ones who are right, they debunk not only
KD> themselves but all religion.
JS> All religions are not right. Only true Christianity.
KD> Then why was Christianity not given a REAL start in any other area
KD> except the middle east? If something is so right that it affects one's
KD> mortal soul, then waiting for people to spread the word isn't good
KD> enough.
It was the time/place/means God chose to do so.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:22:47
EID:ad33 2281bac0
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a471
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Christopher Hughes to Jim Staal <=-
CH> Even if my husband,
Show me the legal certificate.
CH> who is a journalist and used to subedit for a
CH> living,
Hahahahahahahahaha! No evidence of that here. I think he lives off the
state for a living...just like you!
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:27:35
EID:a31c 2281bb60
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a472
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Staal <=-
JB> @MSGID: 1:229/622 333e5c5a
-=> Jim complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
JS> regular payments on the bill if necessary. But I understand what you
JS> are saying.
JB> You'd love it here then. You can't even get into the emergency room
JB> unless you $110 to give them upfront. They couldn't refuse you if you
JB> were bleeding to death or having a heart attack, but they can and will
JB> if you have a broken limb and no cash or plastic to cover it. (If you
JB> have insurance, that's fine...the insurance has to reimburse YOU)
I think you live in the land of Neanderthals. It doesn't sound like much
fun. I pay $10 to go to the doctor, and the hospital charges the
insurance company first and then what they don't pay comes to me.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:29:12
EID:fcca 2281bba0
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a473
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Staal <=-
JB> @MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333ff935
-=> Jim complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Karl <=-
JS> Why not? It is a work of art.
JB>
JB> Why not? I used to live with a tattoo artist who had a set of cherries
JB> and the word 'Swan' tattooed on his. (No, I didn't get to hold it for
JB> him when he did it)
He had jsomeone else do it? ;)
JB> First time I ever saw it, I was puzzled by the 'Swan', until he got
JB> hard and I realized the word was actually 'Saskatchawan'...his
JB> birthplace.
LOL! Interesting. I wonder what 'you ain't seen nothing yet' would lool
like in a flacid state. :)
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: dumb religious delusions
|Date: 31 Mar 97 22:49:00
EID:4a73 227fb620
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33375677
In a message to Darryl Gonzalez <03-30-97 00:27> Dan Ceppa wrote:
DC> -> On 26 Mar 97 18:50:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Mark O'Neill
DC>
DC> DG> You totally missed the point, Mark. My point there was that
DC> most of
DC> DG> the people on this echo will refuse to listen to any evidence
or
DC> DG> argument no matter what I do. That point had nothing to do with
DC> DG> reading the Bible at all.
DC>
DC> But of course it does, Darryl, Darryl and your other brother,
DC> Darryl
Dan,
Sometimes I question whether you CAN even read. Check out the original
message, pal!
DC>
DC> You are using your "god written" bible out as evidence. Provide
I didn't do that in the original message. Can you even read, Dan?
DC> the evidence that your god exists before you make the silly-assed
DC> claim that it was written by your "god".
DC>
Once again I must ask if you can even read. I listed four different items
which backed both the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you long for a "Remote control" that would convert all the tissue-soaking,
male bashing TV movies to football games or fishing programs.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 31 Mar 97 22:56:00
EID:cf59 227fb700
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33375835
In a message to Ken Young <03-31-97 05:59> Judith Bandsma wrote:
JB> -=> Ken complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Dan <=-
JB>
JB> KY> Your creator wouldn't be worth you worshipping Him? That's like
JB> ^^^^
JB>
JB> You better back off on this type shit. In one post you go on and on
JB> about
JB> how you are 'just telling people' and not forcing stuff on them.
JB>
JB> You KNOW that Dan doesn't believe the same as you do, so WHY are you
JB> trying
JB> to include him in your myths?
But God (YHWH) IS Dan's creator, Judith, whether Dan wants to recognize
him as
such or not. Just as He is YOURS.
Were they myths, I would not make a point of sharing them with as many people
as I can. I do not try to include Dan, or you, or anyone else in a bunch
of
myths. I think Ken agrees. But I do try to share the truth with them,
so
that they can believe it, serve God, and be saved.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If your preacher's sermons every Sunday seem to include you.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Re: FUNDY FROLICS 1/3
|Date: 31 Mar 97 23:06:00
EID:e49f 227fb8c0
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33375A82
In a message to Ken Young <03-31-97 12:53> Dave Hamilton wrote:
DH> REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333b1f56
DH> MSGID: 1:229/622 333fb43f
DH> CHRS: IBMPC 2
DH> TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH> KY>> As far as holding God to the same standards as humans goes, I
DH> would
DH> KY>> say that, since God is the creator of morality and what is
DH> right,
DH> KY>> whatever He says is right, must be.
DH>
DH> DH>> So is slavery ok?
DH>
DH> KY> If the slaves gave up their freedom willingly, and actually
DH> chose to
DH> KY> be slaves,but only then.
DH>
DH> Since with the exception of Christian women, this has never in
DH> history
DH> been the case, it would seem you have higher morals even than Jesus.
Really? What's your evidence that slavery (or servanthood) has never been
voluntary? Haven't you ever heard of the indentured servants who came to
America prior to the Revolutionary War? These were people of European (and
s
ome African) races who were slaves for a set number of years, and then set
free, and given a portion of the "master's" goods. They came VOLUNTARILY.
This item of history can be picked up in any high-school American history
textbook which covers 1492-1865. P.S.: That's also a Biblical principle,
so
those who were slaves in the OT were in fact indentured servants.
DH> He
DH> never condemned the slavery that existed in his time, conquered
DH> people
DH> being bought and sold. I've always wondered why that was. Have you?
DH>
Again, what's your evidence that this took place?
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you notice that all the other drivers are speeding and driving crazy.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Re: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 31 Mar 97 23:08:00
EID:d646 227fb900
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33375AF5
In a message to Ed Mills <03-31-97 13:07> Dave Hamilton wrote:
DH> REPLY: 1:105/24.12 200a2d7c
DH> MSGID: 1:229/622 333fb752
DH> CHRS: IBMPC 2
DH> TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH> About a message of Ed Mills to George Harper:
DH>
DH> GH>> I don't mind being a cyberspace scapegoat, if even ONE of these
DH> GH>> detractors follows in the footsteps of Saul of Tarsus, joining
DH> the
DH> GH>> ranks of believers. That would justify all the humiliation
DH> heaped on
DH> GH>> me, deservedly or not. If not even one comes over, then I can
DH> at
DH> GH>> least know that I tried.
DH>
DH> EM> Too bad the results are, on balance, the opposite of what you're
DH> EM> trying to accomplish, eh? Are you sure that's what your deity
DH> wants
DH> EM> you to do? :-)
DH>
Yes, and I'm going to keep on doing it! And I hope GH does too.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you don't go to a bar anymore, but would rather watch "Mash" reruns
instead.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:09:02
EID:3ee4 227b5120
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d6be
* On 22-03-97 at 22:33, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> RodS> Did they find the cult of Vernon was stockpiling
RS> RodS> TANKS? Or was it that they just had a year's
RS> RodS> supply of NOODLES to keep them going?
RS> js> None of the above.
RS> RodS> Of course not, simpleton.
RS> js> I find it quite amusing that a giggly little girl
RS> njs> . . . that I find so erotically enticing . . .
RS> js> such as yourself would call one such as I
RS> njs> . . . effectively dead from the neck up . . .
RS> js> 'simpleton'. LOL!
RS> Yeah, Rod, what's wrong with you! Staalin can't pronounce
RS> words of more than TWO syllables! Where's your compassion?
RS> `Fool' is an equally acceptable term!
That's right. :) :) :) :) :) I'm a giggly girly! :) I should use
"fool" more often to describe his status as a simpleton.
Maybe I could be error-dite by pe_r_jorate-ing "fool" :) :)
RS> js> ... Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. - John 6:37
RS> I, personally, think he's coming on to you here. };)
RS> ... Him that cometh in me I will in no ways push out. -- JS 1:3
*KINKY!* :) :) :)
Jimson just loves that Holy Sper...Spirit :)
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * At least I never misplaced the Deltivid asteroid belt - Q
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Educational Experience
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:11:04
EID:2b8e 227b5160
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d738
* On 22-03-97 at 22:47, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Educational Experience" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> RodS> The inspiration of Jesus is one whereby you
RS> RodS> believe, or burn. Most would call it blackmail.
RS> RodS> Deluded people call it "salvation".
RS> js> A good alegory would be to throw a lifepreserver to a
RS> js> drowning person and that person refuses to avail
RS> js> himself of it and drowns. No blackmail there.
RS> A better analogy would be to toss a life preserver to a man
RS> walking in the Mohave and tell him that he's drowning. But
RS> I don't expect Jimson to understand that.
That was my analogy. Either one can look at his allegory as
being tossing a life preserver to someone standing on dry land,
while watching the deluded fool pretend he's drowning. I
expressed that this image is why I find Christians to look
foolish.
The alternative is the "greater picture" view, where they throw
innocent people into a wading pool, claim it's a tremendous
ocean, and that they need saving -- normally the people they
throw in the wading pool are innocent children.
Nothing like the fear of a non-existent God to make sure the next
generation is just as unthinking as this one.
Rod "...*sigh*!" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Anti-women, anti-gay -- born again bigot, go away!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:13:06
EID:7a9c 227b51a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d7b2
* On 24-03-97 at 15:03, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KS> RS>KS> KY>find such a thing very sick indeed. But, a majority of
KS> RS>KS> KY>molesters do appear to be gay.
KS> RS>KS> You are a liar.
KS> RS>How many youths will commit suicide because people who listen to
KS> RS>Ken pressure them?
KS> Far too many, sadly.
Yes, sadly. Here's a reference :(
* Half of all lesbian and gay youth report that their parents reject them
due to their sexual orientation.
-- Remafedi, G. "Male Homosexuality: The Adolescent's Perspective,"
Pediatrics, 79:326-330, 1987.
* Gay adolescents are two to three times more likely to attempt suicide
than male heterosexual adolescents. It is estimated that up to 30% of
reported youth suicides each year are committed by lesbian and gay young
people.
-- Gibson P, LCSW. "Gay Male and Lesbian Youth Suicide," Report of the
Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services, 1989.
Rod "...*sigh*" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Dogs crawl under gates, software crawls under Windows
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Homosexuals Also Repr
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:15:08
EID:80fc 227b51e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d82c
* On 24-03-97 at 00:14, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Homosexuals Also Repr" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> They *are* distasteful. For me, eating seafood is distasteful,
KY> RS> but that does not mean I have not eaten seafood on occasion.
KY> RS> The motivation has been present in which I have had to practice
a
KY> RS> distasteful act out of motivational reasons.
KY> I really cannot understand this. I would think that if you found
KY> something truly disgusting, that you wouldn't take part in it.
I do. I don't eat seafood.
KY> RS> Here is the point I wish you to ponder.
KY> RS> Why do heterosexuals try homosexual sex acts? Don't they find
KY> RS> the acts distasteful?
KY> This is a good question, and I would have to say for the most part,
they
KY> don't. The only time is when growing up, some will do many
KY> things to experiment. But once they are aware of who they
KY> are, they generally do not do something they find
KY> distasteful.
Ah, so you admit that sexual orientation is innate?
KY> ...but once they are aware of WHO THEY ARE, they generally...
Thank you for your final admission in this case that you were
wrong.
Rod "...you can leave now, but at least you can leave honestly" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Could crop circles be the work of a cereal killer?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:18:10
EID:f07c 227b5240
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d8e2
* On 24-03-97 at 00:22, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> But it is possible for people with their own mind power
KY> to change themselves physically. This may sound bizarre,
KY> but it is definitely
DC> Change yourself into a hippopotamus. That would be really bizarre.
RS> Hey, let's pick something inanimate. How about a table?
RS> Rod "...wahoo! The power of the mind can do anything. The power
RS> of God can do nothing. Ergo, Ken Young says we should all be
RS> Mindists, not Christians" Swift :)
KY> No, because while the power of the mind may be a great
KY> thing, God has set limits to what extent it can be used.
Oh, I agree. Your mind usage has been severely limited to
spewing theories, but providing no rational basis for the
theories nor providing any supporting evidence.
KY> Besides, the mind can't do everything.
KY> Unlike God.
Oh, yeah! :) :) God is *sooooo* powerful that he allows daily
misery, hunger, famine, abject poverty, etc, etc.
And this is his "love" for his creation.
Praise Jesus for barbaric world agronomics!
Maybe if we just think about the world being able to sustain the
population, it'll just happen, yeah?
Rod "...wahoo!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Know God, know problems. No God, no problems!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:21:12
EID:ca8d 227b52a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d998
* On 24-03-97 at 00:25, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel Boycot" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RH> KY> Because only one is natural and has a practical purpose.
KY> RH> Given overpopulation, the "purpose" is detrimental to the species.
KY> RS> You are correct. You could have also attacked him on his narrow
KY> RS> view and non-pluralistic viewpoint on this issue. Why only ONE
KY> RS> function? Why can't there be more than one function? Why is
KY> RS> only ONE valid?
KY> There is more than one function to sex, but there is one
KY> primary one, that is above the rest.
Now, don't backflip. You said that only *ONE TYPE OF SEX* is
natural. Unless, of course, you are saying that homosexuality is
natural, just that it has no procreative purpose.
Then again, most heterosexual sex acts are the same --
deliberately non-procreative.
KY> RH> Homosexuality occurs among animals. It is "natural" too.
KY> RS> Of course it is. :) :) He denied it existed in the animal
KY> RS> kingdom though.
KY> I sure did. I have seen some strange things, but I can
KY> safely say, I never saw homosexuality among animals.
We provided citations. You have failed to read them I see.
Would you like more citations? Or do you want to actually
attempt to read the first batch of papers into the issue?
And, actually, I doubt that you are telling the truth about never
seeing it. There was widespread TV coverage of those two octopii
that were getting it on in a same-sex manner a few years back.
Rod "...but you may have missed the news reports. Shall I find
them for you?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Does killing time damage eternity?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:29:14
EID:ca8d 227b53a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339db7a
* On 24-03-97 at 00:32, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel Boycot" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> DR> Measles is very easy to aquire. HIV is damn difficult: one
KY> DR> must work hard, statistically speaking, to aquire the virus
KY> DR> (if HIV is the contributory cause of AIDS).
KY> RS> You are correct. Quarantining of HIV would only make the
KY> RS> unquarantined population think that they are safe. Not that that
KY> RS> would make much difference if you listen to any US teenager who
KY> RS> thinks they are "immune" because "only the fags have it" because
KY> RS> they've been listening to the lies of the religious right.
KY> Pretty much the same way the left has convinced them that
KY> if they have "safe sex," they are also immune from it?
Strange, where do you get your information from? I've certainly
never suggested that safer sex practices provide immunity. It
provides a very effective barrier control protection, but never
immunity.
And a very effective barrier control protection for people who
would be sexually active anyway is better than no protection, no?
That is the whole idea behind safer sexual practices -- making
people understand that protection is a hell of a lot better than
nothing.
It's strange to think that you don't support such a concept.
I've always seen the US's position on disease control as being
one of "cutting of one's religious nose to spite one's disease
infested face" -- a handful of dollars spent educating the masses
is easily recouped as both money spent and lives spared from all
those cases that will never *contract* HIV.
Every person that you fail to reach with a few dollars' of
education who does contract HIV and develops AIDS is set to cost
the US taxpayer well over $100,000.
If the heterosexual US population keeps fucking itself out of
existence through the US's superior policy of *ignorance* rather
than *education*, the epidemic within their community will be
frightening. Take a look at HIV diagnoses in women over the
pandemic, for example, to see that growing trend.
And diagnoses don't equal infections. And the lag time from
infection to diagnosis in heterosexuals is longer.
Rod "...yes, a few dollars for an educational pack directly sent
to each household is better than the hundreds of millions of
dollars that might be spent on HIV care for just one year's newly
diagnosed patients" Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * REALITY.SYS corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:30:16
EID:9a0b 227b53c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339dbb8
* On 24-03-97 at 00:35, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> Why can there not be more than one practical purpose? Please
KY> RS> provide the evidence that shows that there is an EXCLUSIVE
KY> RS> purpose *ONLY* to sex.
KY> RS> Rod "...and remember to not enjoy sex next time you have it, else
KY> RS> you'll be being a hypocrite to your single-functioned purpose of
KY> RS> sex" Swift :)
KY> As I said, there is more than one purpose to sex, but there
KY> is one, more important than any other.
So you admit that homosexuality has a purpose, just not the one
you want.
KY> Nope.. Enjoyment is one of the purposes, though much less
KY> of a purpose than something like procreation.
So you admit that homosexuality has a purpose. Thank you for
your backflip on this issue.
Rod "...you can safely leave now, knowing you have owned up for
your lies" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Psychic convention cancelled due to unforeseen problems
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:33:18
EID:9a0b 227b5420
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339dc6e
* On 24-03-97 at 00:37, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Nope. I was misunderstood. All I was saying was that
KY> KY> while they are gay, they cannot become Christian. But once
KY> KY> they accept Christ as their savior, all homosexuality is
KY> KY> gone.
KY> RS> Wrong and wrong. Visit your local Metropolitan Community Church.
KY> RS> Read the following book:
KY> RS> White, Mel -- Stranger at the Gate.
KY> Well, is anyone truly open-minded about everything?
One can promise to not be deliberately closed-minded. Which is
what you are doing when you claim that you won't listen to the
evidence not consider it.
KY> I am only open-minded to the point that if I was
KY> really proven wrong, I would believe it.
Everyone is laughing at your ignorance of homosexuality.
Everyone is laughing because your religion blocks your ability to
listen to the facts.
KY> Hmm.. You think one shouldn't believe the Bible because it
KY> is just a book, correct? So why is this book one to pay
KY> attention to?
Because, unlike God, Mel White is living and breathing. He's
also got a very interesting perspective on the hatred your side
peddles about gays -- especially when he was ghostwriting books
for your religious leaders.
KY> And no, I do not plan on paying that church a visit.
Why not? Afraid that you may hear the truth? You were the one
asking what they believed. Why won't you ask them?
KY> Just be happy that I have mellowed greatly through the years on
KY> this issue.
"Just be happy I don't murder blacks anymore, just whip them."
KY> If you think I am intolerant now, you would
KY> have just loved me, a few years ago!
"Just be happy I don't murder blacks anymore, just whip them."
Rod "...your position is still untenable, unscientific,
unrealistic, and untruthful" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Death: to stop sinning suddenly
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 1/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:54:20
EID:98a9 227b56c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e15c
* On 24-03-97 at 02:43, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> No, I feel they are immoral because the feelings they are
KY> KY> having are very unnatural.
KY> RS> Very unnatural? Have you experienced homosexual feelings? How
KY> RS> do you claim such a thing? Do you have evidence? Are you going
KY> RS> to point to your bible to make such a claim?
KY> If I had such feelings, I'd likely be decieved as well in
KY> thinking that they were natural feelings.
Maybe if you had those feelings, you would understand that they
are completely natural.
If you think they are unnatural feelings, where do they come
from? Evidence?
I asked you to provide the scientific evidence to your claim that
homosexual feelings are "very unnatural". Please do provide the
reasoning.
Oh, that's right, you can't provide evidence, because you are a
"lying fuck", right?
KY> Why are they unnatural? Well, what purpose do they serve?
The purpose you admitted two posts back, for a start, when you
claimed procreation wasn't the ONLY valid form of sex.
Secondly. Questioning the questioner is not a valid response to
the claim for you to provide evidence.
Thirdly, science shows that these feelings are completely
natural in their occurence.
You're just being a "lying fuck" again.
KY> Homosexual feelings are unnatural, to a large degree,
KY> because of the actions that one with homosexual feelings
KY> would want to engage in.
You've failed to look up the definition of "natural" and
"unnatural" again, haven't you?
I love your wishy-washy nature. You now claim that homosexual
feelings TO A LARGE DEGREE are unnatural. So you admit that some
homosexual feelings in a small degree are natural. Which ones,
Ken? Evidence? Did you feel them?
Are the natural ones the ones you occasionally feel? Please
tell! Or are you just being a "lying fuck" again?
KY> RS> You claimed that you would support the rights of gay people to
KY> RS> self-determination, and the legalisation of their rights and
KY> RS> unions in another post. You now avoid that question. Why?
KY> RS> Why do you no longer claim to support the rights of gays? You
KY> RS> claimed at the time you don't like supporting them, but you must,
KY> RS> or who would support YOUR rights? Are you now admitting that you
KY> RS> no longer want us to respect and support your rights?
KY> I am still for everyone's rights, that has not changed.
Lying fuck...
KY> But part of our rights, is the right to take away the
KY> rights of others, if it does not go against the
KY> Constitution, and if enough want it.
Please review the decision of the US Supreme Court in Romer v
Evans for a complete debunking of THIS claim. There is no right
in the US for the majority to pass any law based upon animus
alone -- only laws that serve a legislatively-needed purpose.
It is so nice that you support tyrannical majorities.
KY> RS> So you would not want marriage for gays. How honest of you. All
KY> RS> we wish to do is live our lives in peace and equality. If you
KY> RS> deny this to us, you will be the first victim in the war. Gay
KY> RS> people will stage more civil disobedience. There are plans, on
KY> RS> the protestation of the removal of our civil rights to legalised
KY> RS> unions, to protest by striking, failing to pay taxes, and other
KY> RS> acts of civil disobedience.
KY> I believe I was saying that I would not want unfair treatement
KY> like gay bashing or concentration camps for gays either.
No. You claimed that gays deserved equal rights. That includes
the right to live life without YOUR interference, to marry and
have their unions legally recognised under the law.
KY> RS> If the government will not treat us equally before the law in
KY> RS> rights, we will not abide equally under the law in
KY> RS> responsibilities to the government that betrays us.
KY> You seriously agree with this?
Completely. The people always have the right to civil
disobedience. Even if that results in incarceration. Especially
when the case is that for some, incarceration is more attractive
than the life offered to them by the majority.
KY> KY> Why would I want them beaten,put in camps, etc.?
KY> RS> It's so nice that you'd let us roam the streets to receive our
KY> RS> beatings from thugs, as opposed to institutionalised
KY> RS> concentration camp violence by authorities.
KY> Oh, come on.. How would they even know you are gay? Are you
KY> saying one can tell if a person is gay by looking at them?
If I do on the street what you do, I could be gay bashed. If I
hold my partner's hand, like you may, I could be gay bashed.
If I kiss my partner, like you may, in public I could be gay
bashed.
You just don't have any contact points in reality, do you, Lying
Fuck?
KY> KY> And I certainly do not want anyone to go to Hell.
KY> RS> We certainly want you to. You can go to hell any time you like,
KY> RS> as far as I'm concerned.
KY> Wouldn't that be kind of difficult, seeing how you don't
KY> even believe Hell exists?
But you do. And hence I have every right to use your incontinent
belief system to damn you to whatever damnation structure that
exists within it.
KY> KY> Their norm? So everything should be accepted, to that point?
KY> RS> It is normal. You have failed to prove an exclusive sexual
KY> RS> orientation being right. You've failed to prove heterosexuality
KY> RS> to be the default sexual orientation.
KY> RS> It is you that is in contradiction with reality. It is you that
KY> RS> is wrong, and the world is right.
KY> You admit that the world generally sides with you on this issue?
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * Bigots: those who confuse personal tastes with morality
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 2/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:54:22
EID:68a9 227b56c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e15e
>>> Continued from previous message
Actually, I admit that science always sides with me on these
issues. It's why you, Lying Fuck, have not been able to present
any evidence so far in this issue, yet I've provided reference
after reference after reference *DEBUNKING* your theories.
KY> KY> A non-issue? It be great if that was what most gays
KY> KY> wanted, as that is also what I want.
KY> RS> Then grant us our civil rights.
KY> Unfortunately, I have no such ability.
It's nice to know that you fell for that trap, and admit that
homosexual citizens do not have full civil rights by
acknowledging that they still need some civil rights, and hence
are second class citizens.
To think that you claimed to in this post, above:
But part of our rights, is the right to take away the
rights of others, if it does not go against the
Constitution, and if enough want it.
Surely that also allows you to *NOT* remove the rights of others.
It also allows you to restore the rights you've already unjustly
removed, no?
KY> KY> Again, I did not say one should hide his mate, but rather,
KY> KY> just not make it an issue with everyone.
KY> RS> You make the issue, Ken, not I. You outlaw our union and make
it
KY> RS> illegal, Ken, not I. If you allowed our union to be legal, Ken,
KY> RS> it would not be an issue. If you allowed gays to be treated
KY> RS> equally before the law, and have equal access to the law (rather
KY> RS> than separate but equal), and have equal rights, the issue would
KY> RS> not exist.
KY> You keep on saying that -I- have denied you this right, and
KY> that right, when I have had no say in the least.
So you have no conscience when you vote? You don't fund churches
and organisations that lobby to remove the rights of gays?
Oh, my, your ignorance astounds me.
KY> RS> outrage. You created the response. You claim the solution is
KY> RS> for us to "shut up and go away". I claim the solution is one
KY> RS> that you should create. Create the solution -- treat gays
KY> RS> equally, Ken. Pass the laws to legalise our love, our unions,
KY> RS> our lives. Pass the laws to make us equal, Ken.
KY> No laws are necessary.
You admitted above that gays do not have full civil rights. Laws
ARE necessary to redress this point. The laws needing to be
passed are the ones that REPEAL the laws passed to remove the
civil rights of gays and the laws to equalise other laws that
give heterosexuals special privileges and rights.
KY> In fact, such laws would likely make people even more resentful
KY> of gays.
Tough. The rights of gay people cannot merely be revoked based
on the majority not liking it. Read Romer v Evans.
KY> Personally, I think that is why there is so much gay
KY> bashing today.
I've already given you the statistics on this. Gay bashing
decreases when exposed publically and condemned for the hate
crimes that they are.
KY> There has been so much talk about gay rights, that many just
KY> became resentful of gays trying to take what they see as
KY> special rights.
So you admit, inherent in this statement that anti-gay forces
claim that we want special rights as a method of propagandising
to deny equal rights claims?
How wonderful that you admit the above.
Rod "...thank you for your admission" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Bigots: those who confuse personal tastes with morality
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Ken completely debunk 1/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:00:24
EID:2b80 227b5800
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e2c8
* On 24-03-97 at 03:06, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ken completely debunk 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> MO> "gays may subconsciously make the choice to be
KY> MO> homosexual" - Ken Young
KY> KY> And what's wrong with that?
KY> RS> What is wrong with that is that you said *may*. You have not yet
KY> RS> proven such a claim.
KY> I said may because some have consciously made that
KY> decision, and for others it is subconscious.
You said "may" because, in your typical wishy-washy way, you have
no evidence of NEITHER of your theories.
Please provide this evidence, Lying Fuck Ken.
KY> I am not trying to compare homosexuality with alchoholism,
KY> but there may be an analogy here I can use.
Alcoholism is a chemical dependency. Why don't you compare
homosexuality to, say, handedness, which is a much better
analogy.
KY> MO> Gays cannot be saved, and will go to Hell. -- Ken Young
KY> KY> I did not say that, I said that while they are gay,
KY> KY> they cannot be saved.
KY> RS> That is yet another mistruth. See your local UFMCC church.
KY> Well, who said that they had the copyright on the truth?
No one.
Though you've claimed that you have the copyright, a number of
times, on scientific truth. Care to back up your theories with
evidence, Lying Fuck Ken?
No, I guess not!
Rod "...but then, I'm always right when it comes to guessing your
behaviour. When are you going to start quoting tracts of
'information' from ISIS/Paul Cameron on how gays die at a median
death of 39 if they have HIV, 42 if they don't?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't buy furs. It takes trees to make protest signs.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:05:26
EID:4391 227b58a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e3f6
* On 24-03-97 at 03:13, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Accepting Reality" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KW> To set the record straight. I think there will be
KY> KW> HOMOS in heaven. Why? Because being a HOMO (whether
KY> KW> one is born one or one by choice) does not send
KY> KW> one to heaven or hell.
KY> RS> Strange. Ken Young believes that no homos will be in heaven.
KY> We can't disagree on an issue?
No. You are Christians. In the post prior to this, you disclaim
that UFMCC has any answers to this question because they disagree
with you.
Why don't you claim the same about Wiens?
KY> I believe that some of who are gay now, could wind up in Heaven,
KY> but if they died gay, they will not go there, because they would be
KY> rejecting Christianity.
How wishy-washy, flip-floppy of you. How typical of your
UNDEFINITIVE answers.
Besides, many gays don't care about going to heaven. They would
rather live in reality :)
KY> KW> It is living a lifestyle...
KY> RS> and get ready for it, kids, a Christian is just about to
KY> RS> ignorantly claim what the gay lifestyle may be...
KY> Gee, I feel so sorry for you.. Living a lifestyle, and you
KY> don't even know what it is..
No. My claim is particularly made that there is *no* gay
lifestyle, not that I am ignorant of one. Homosexuals live
EXACTLY like heterosexuals. IDENTICAL.
KY> KW> ... where one regularly engages in such acts without
KY> KW> stopping the practice and repenting that will
KY> KW> send one to hell.
KY> RS> And then, god damn it, he never got around to explaining this
KY> RS> "gay lifestyle". You see, no one has ever been able to provide
KY> RS> an answer to this concept. And, being gay, I'm really confused,
KY> RS> because I know of no such distinct "gay lifestyle".
KY> RS> I do hope that a Christian can specifically describe the "gay
KY> RS> lifestyle" they speak of -- what gay people do on a day-to-day
KY> RS> basis, and in short and long term goals -- that makes gay
KY> RS> relationships and lives so different from heterosexual ones I've
KY> RS> observed.
KY> RS> I desperately want to know. I'd hate to be living a false "gay
KY> RS> lifestyle".
KY> This lifestyle that has been mentioned, includes homosexual
KY> actions, or the potential for them.
No. This is not a lifestyle. This is a sexual function of
sexual orientation. Lifestyle is those factors which make up the
day-to-day living functions of a person.
KY> KW> Being born with the inclination
KY> KW> is not going to send anyone to hell.
KY> RS> Can you please tell Ken Young about why you believe gays are born
KY> RS> with a naturally-occuring homosexual sexual orientation?
KY> Yes, I for one would be very interested to hear about that.
Well, maybe it is because it is scientific fact.
KY> RS> Further, can you please explain why you would condemn sexual
KY> RS> orientation if it is innate and unchangeable? Surely you should
KY> Hmm.. Are you calling it now, sexual orientation?
I've always called homosexuality a *sexual orientation*. This is
the correct term for the innate, unchangeable feelings developed
in all humans which drive their innate emotional and intimate
orientation.
Rod "...don't you read, Ken?" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Velcronomicon: A magick book that sticks with you
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Homosexuals Also Repr
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:06:28
EID:80fc 227b58c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e434
* On 24-03-97 at 03:26, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Homosexuals Also Repr" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> Would you have sex with the agent? Why or why not? If you would,
would
KY> RS> it be "sin"? Why or why not? If it is "sin", is it somehow "justified"
KY> RS> or "excused"? Why? And if your love for your loved one "justifies"
your
KY> RS> "sin", why does not the love of one gay person for another justify
his
KY> RS> or her "sin"?
KY> RS> If you wouldn't have sex with the agent, how do you justify letting
the
KY> RS> enemy kill your loved one, with torture, when you could have saved
him
KY> RS> or her? Is that really "family values", or is it elevating the form
of
KY> RS> avoiding a certain politically incorrect "sin" over the substance
of
KY> RS> love?
KY> I must admit, you do come up with some good questions..
KY> Well, I doubt if I would be able to have homosexual sex even in
KY> that type of situation.
Why? What if someone was holding a gun to your head?
KY> I wouldn't know for sure unless in that
KY> situation, but I can be fairly certain. It is just too
KY> disgusting for me to even consider.
What if someone was holding a gun to your head?
KY> If someone didn't have homosexual sex, it wouldn't mean
KY> greed, but rather that they were willing to stand on
KY> principle, no matter what.
What if someone was holding a gun to your head?
Rod "...would you change your mind?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Famous graffitti: Schroedinger may have been here
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:09:30
EID:59fd 227b5920
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e4ea
* On 24-03-97 at 13:31, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> RodS> Because, Richard, Ken wants to give heterosexuals
RS> RodS> special rights -- the special rights to beat gays,
RS> RodS> kill gays, discriminate against gays.
RS> RodS> How dare gays demand the equal right to be NOT
RS> RodS> subjected to the above terrors?
RS> Pretty ballsy of people who dress better than straights. };)
You've discovered the secret gay agenda :) :) That must be it.
To save tragically fashion-uncoordinated heterosexuals from
becoming fashion victims. :) :)
Rod "... ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't just stand there!!! Kneel!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:20:32
EID:131c 227b5a80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e780
* On 23-03-97 at 11:53, JIM STAAL wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Book Theft" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> CH> Not universally. And not for much longer in the US, thanks to Hawaii.
JS> I don't see it happening soon.
Then you're wearing blinkers. The Hawaii Supreme Court must deal
with it this session.
JS> I don't see any given validity being given to the Hawaii thing
JS> either.
Then you are wearing blinkers. States have the right to
determine what is and is not a marriage. The validity will be
entire and complete.
JS> Perhaps if at least you guys could determine a husband and wife
JS> differentiation for definition's sake...you
JS> call cubby your husband and he, you. that is a bit confusing.
The strange thing about civil marriage statutes is that many of
them in the US have no such gender discrimination in them at all,
believe it or not.
The "husband and wife" is a purely religious construct from the
religious, not civil, ceremony.
Rod "...husband and husband is completely valid as a ceremonial
form in many religions, similarly, wife and wife" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus saves? Not on my salary he doesn't.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:22:34
EID:c45c 227b5ac0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e7fa
* On 23-03-97 at 12:03, JIM STAAL wrote to SUE ALEXANDER,
on the topic of "Oops, Caught Again" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> RS> What are you doing to stop these terrorists?
JS> JS> Nothing. It is the job of the police in Atlanta. When they happen
JS> JS> in GR (they won't) I'll be the first to bitch.
JS> SA> Why won't they happen in Grand Rapids, Jim?
JS> Perhaps I was a bit boastfully overconfidant, but I don't see it
JS> happening.
It happened in Detroit. Why not Grand Rapids?
JS> SA> Aren't there any Christians there,
JS> Are you kidding? They don't call GR the 'city of churches, the city
JS> with a church on every street corner' for nothing. Over 500 in the
JS> phone book alone. Quite something for a city of 300,000 people.
And isn't it ironic that Christians whine about having no rights
to pray or worship!
JS> SA> or are you trying to imply that there are no terrorists there?
JS> Not yet. We have a very good police department that is quite well
JS> in tune with the beat of our conservative society.
Are they in tune with the beatings by your conservative society
-- against others?
Rod "...I suppose you deny that the male adolescents mob-bash
gays, right?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus saves, passes to Moses. He shoots. He scores!!!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: A toast to dracula
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:25:36
EID:5972 227b5b20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e8b0
* On 22-03-97 at 23:08, RICHARD SMITH wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "A toast to dracula" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> ky> You, on the other hand, must be a very weak and
RS> ky> insecure person. Otherwise, you would not feel
RS> ky> the need to attack soemthing you know nothing
RS> ky> about.
RS> Why do you attack homosexuality, when you've never been
RS> homosexual?
And to think, Dear Richard, that he knows nothing about
homosexuality, and hence MUST attack it... :) The hypocrisy
shines brightly, no?
RS> ky> You're sinless? You really need to do something
RS> ky> about ego, if you think you are perfect.
RS> He never claimed he was perfect. Sad straw man, Jelly Boy.
Isn't it! :)
Rod "...he's trying everything to attack me, not my arguments, on
homosexuality" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Atheism: A non-prophet organisation
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:27:38
EID:20b0 227b5b60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e92a
* On 24-03-97 at 08:46, RICHARD SMITH wrote to KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT,
on the topic of "Cheese Whiz" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> ... (^46) = Al Schroeder overdosing on caffiene.
ROFL!!! :) :)
You know, I miss Al. Really...
*wave to Al who is no doubt still reading :) :)*
Rod "...quick, someone slap me until I wake up!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Don't get stuck in a closet. Wear yourself out.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:30:40
EID:19ad 227b5bc0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339e9e0
* On 24-03-97 at 09:07, RICHARD SMITH wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> ky> No, religious freedom is not up to the public.
RS> Untrue.
Correct. The part of the First Amendment guaranteeing freedom of
religion can be revoked.
RS> ky> Why?
RS> I'll show you.
RS> ky> Because that's according to the US Constitution.
RS> Which, you'll have to admit, is amendable. And who votes on
RS> amendments? In most cases, the people . . . the very public
RS> you said don't control religious freedom, above.
RS> In some cases, elected individuals vote on amendments, but those
RS> individuals are elected and voted in by . . . the people
RS> again.
Yes, as you detail the constitution is amendable solely by the states, if
they so choose, and are under no obligation to provide a
referendum on the issue.
RS> Debunked again, Jelly Boy.
Isn't it a satisfying feeling to debunk Lying Fuck?
Rod "...hehhee" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The best prophet of the future is the past
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster chi 1/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:41:42
EID:4cc6 227b5d20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339ec76
* On 24-03-97 at 10:18, RICHARD SMITH wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Ken Young: Poster child" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> RodS> Read above. I never made any such claim. I made the
RS> RodS> claim that the evidence clearly shows that in
RS> RodS> virtually all surveyed people, sexual orientation is
RS> RodS> not a conscious choice. Further, if it were a
RS> RodS> conscious OR subconscious choice, it would be able to
RS> RodS> be repaired like any other behavioural pattern choice.
RS> ky> ANd since some have switched to being heterosexual, it
RS> ky> has indeed been "repaired."
RS> Have you evidence to show that this actually the case?
Science has the evidence that shows that only sexual BEHAVIOUR,
not orientation, is changed in these people. Even their
Christian "gay curing" ministeries and their leaders admit they
still have the "life-long struggle" against their feelings ahead,
but they are "proud" that they are celibate, or faking
heterosexual love with a nice Christian Girl or Guy! :)
I note Ken's best evidence that he doesn't even believe they are
"cured" is the fact he wouldn't let his children marry an "ex-gay".
RS> ky> WHy can't you understand this? You made yourself who
RS> ky> you are, and that includes your likes and dislikes,
RS> ky> even sexually.
RS> Your evidence for this claim is . . . ?
...never going to be presented, Richard :)
RS> All you do is ignore the evidence and reports we keep posting
RS> for your edification on this.
A yup-yup-yup! *nod nod* You got it correct in that!! :)
RS> RodS> I never said *every* single gay person. I said
RS> RodS> *MOST people*. I'm quite willing to admit (and have)
RS> RodS> that there are some people who claim to have chosen.
RS> And again, as I'm sure Rod will point out, we can't be sure
RS> that they actually have, just that they've claimed they have.
Most of them are confused cases. In most studies, those who have
claimed to have chosen are indicating their sexual behavior, not
orientation, and when requestioned, claim their sexual
orientation feelings are innate.
RS> RodS> We cannot determine if they did or not by simple
RS> RodS> investigation -- though it seems on further
RS> RodS> questioning on these individuals, they do express that
RS> RodS> their sexual orientation has always been innate (as
RS> RodS> they confuse the initial question to be "sexual
RS> RodS> activity" not "orientation").
RS> ky> AT least you admit that it is possible for one to
RS> ky> choose,
RS> Liar. What he said is that it's possible for someone to
RS> claim that they choose. Different thing.
Thank you for yet again pointing out Ken's dishonesty.
RS> ky> but I think if people were properly questioned,
RS> ky> one would see that that person did indeed choose.
RS> Based on what criteria?
Too bad you didn't see him spindoctor this. My previous post
clearly states that those that claim they chose, under
questioning, clearly misunderstand the question. When it is
explained to them, they invariably change their mind and answer
they didn't choose.
Ken is spindoctoring this to claim that when all people are
questioned on the origins of their sexuality, they will claim
choice most of the time.
At first, Ken tried to claim my statistics (97% claiming no
choice among gays) to mean that the 3% of the population who are
all gay "chose" and the 97% are "heterosexuals".
Nice spindoctoring there, too :)
RS> ky> Perhaps it was due to some trauma, or maybe it was just
RS> ky> basic insecurities. WHichever, if it has to do with how
RS> ky> a person will live their life, it is indeed a choice.
RS> Which you have yet to show that it is.
No evidence provided whatsoever by Ken. How typical of "Lying
Fuck", eh?
RS> RodS> Of any 1000 people who enter such a program of "repair"
RS> RodS> did you know a significant proportion commit suicide
RS> RodS> within one year, because of the fact they've been
RS> RodS> taught that "God hates them", and that the majority of
RS> RodS> participants in these "repair" programs are innocent
RS> RodS> gay youth who have been forced into the program by
RS> RodS> their parents/pastors?
RS> ky> WHo teaches them that God hates gays?
RS> Just because Gays go to Hell doesn't mean that they aren't
RS> loved, eh Jelly Boy?
Or even better "gays get bashed because they speak out and demand
equality. If they only shut up and went away, they'd not get
bashed".
Or even better "the majority is learning to hate gays because
gays demand equality, and the majority doesn't like it."
RS> ky> God
RS> Which God would that be?
Freyr. Lay 'em or slay 'em! :)
RS> ky> It is only their sinfulness that He hates.
RS> Yet their sexuality is part of their basic make-up. If your
RS> Deity created them, it created them that way, and for a
RS> purpose. You would second-guess your Deity?
You have exposed Ken's agenda. No matter WHAT we present, he
will not accept it as it contradicts his WHOLE belief system.
RS> RodS> I didn't say "seen". I said "objectively *listen*
RS> RodS> to". I see you don't listen to me, nor the evidence I
RS> RodS> have to offer about the truth about gay people. You
RS> RodS> clamp your hands over your ears and refuse to even HEAR
RS> RodS> anything, let alone LISTEN to it or ABSORB it or
RS> RodS> CONSIDER it.
RS> ky> I listen perfectly well,
RS> Not from what I've seen.
Thank you. And you know why, see above -- his hidden agenda.
Gays can't naturally be gay, or that would be inconsistent with
his view of his deity.
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * Death: to stop sinning suddenly
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster chi 2/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:41:44
EID:bcc6 227b5d20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339ec78
>>> Continued from previous message
Hence the truth must be subordinate and amended to perpetuate his
deity-construct's existence.
RS> ky> but I am not going to believe something unless I see
RS> ky> something pointing to it being true. I cannot accept
RS> ky> psychology as evidence.
RS> Why not?
Because it is the primary disproof of his God in this issue of
homosexuality being natural. Of course, mainstream science --
genetics, biochemistry, biology, etc, etc -- are debunking him
too.
His screams that they are "not science" are reminiscent of
Appleton, no?
Rod "...when will he recant them as being non-science?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Death: to stop sinning suddenly
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Roflmgdao!!!!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:43:46
EID:1144 227b5d60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339ecf2
* On 24-03-97 at 10:21, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "Roflmgdao!!!!" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> ky> If my son or daughter married a homosexual, I would
RS> ky> be quite upset, but 1) they are still family, and
RS> ky> 2) it isn't as if they would be the gay person.
RS> I haven't laughed like
RS> that in years . . . whatta maroon . . .
RS> ... Ken Young: any child of mine in a gay marriage wouldn't be the gay
one
No. This isn't what he was saying. He was saying that he
wouldn't allow any child of his to marry one of those "ex-gays",
thereby proving his own unfaithfulness in the process :)
Rod "...but it was still a ROFL" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The only rational solution to your problem is suicide
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:44:48
EID:c45c 227b5d80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339ed30
* On 24-03-97 at 10:50, JIM STAAL wrote to KEN WIENS,
on the topic of "Oops, Caught Again" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> Well hey, no guts, no glory. The thing that bugs me the most is that
I
JS> am one of the most tolerant folks here, and yet he and his hate mentor
JS> Fred Rice continue jto insist that I am some sort of hate-filled bigot,
JS> and yet fail to produce one word to support these untrue, unfair
JS> allegations.
You said gays deserve to get bashed for being politically active.
No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you were
gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not have
happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
You are a hateful bigot.
Rod "...proven, dear boy, by your own words" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Give Christians Prozac, not Government Office!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:47:50
EID:e88e 227b5de0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339ede6
* On 23-03-97 at 11:37, JIM STAAL wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Around the World in.. 2/" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> CH> Try using thine noggin for something other than wind-tunnel tests,
JS> CH> Jim.
JS> Tsk. Just gotta do the verbal abuse thing, don't you Chris. Why? Can't
JS> we discuss things without that?
Why is it, Jim, that if we put our ear up to yours, all we can
hear is the ocean? :)
JS> CH> And the federal government has no law saying I can not be fired
for
JS> CH> being gay. It does have laws saying I can not be fired on grounds
of
JS> CH> marital
JS> CH> status, age, religion, sex, race, ethnicity, and nation of origin,
but
JS> CH> it does not have any law preventing being fired on grounds of sexual
JS> CH> orientation.
JS> I am covered by those same laws. Why should you think that you
JS> need/deserve special treatment over and above what I have?
I'll remember to sack you for being straight. You will be unable
to claim job discrimination.
Rod "...then again, why not just ban you from this echo for being
straight -- no right to claim discrimination! :)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Smoke me a kipper skipper, I'll be back for breakfast
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:49:52
EID:ed89 227b5e20
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339ee60
* On 23-03-97 at 11:45, JIM STAAL wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> As I do not archive channel chats, I don't have it available, but one
of
JS> the first times Cubby was on the channel and I quoted scripture, he
JS> replied something to the effect of 'oh no. Scripture' and his response
JS> was one of shrinking.
This is *BULLSHIT*, Jimson. The response I made was:
How *boring*... Scripture. Care to give us something
relevant?
I expect you to retract your false witnessing now.
Rod "...and your apology is accepted in advance" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Nuke a godless homeless commie gay baby whale for Christ
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: J.J. needs to be Hit
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:55:54
EID:3fed 227b5ee0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339efca
* On 23-03-97 at 00:24, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: J.J. needs to be Hitt" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> CH> If students are required to participate, then it's
KY> CH> forced prayer. Organised
KY> CH> prayer is still with us in the schools, unfortunately.
KY> SO then, you wouldn't mind prayer in school, if there was a
KY> prayer said, and the students didn't have to pray as well?
No, Christopher clearly stated that prayers should not be allowed
in enforced participatory times -- inside class sessions.
Students and staff who want to pray can organise a time and place
all by themselves, thank you very much. And guess what, they DO.
This is ORGANISED prayer inside the school, as opposed to
ENFORCED prayer in the CLASSROOM.
KY> CH> What do you think the
KY> CH> benediction before every football game and graduation ceremony is?
KY> I wouldn't know, as the schools I know of, don't allow it.
KY> Even back when I was in high school(I graduated in 90),
KY> they were trying to stop prayer being said at graduation,
KY> and now that school no longer has it.
That's wonderful. It should be outlawed. Why should the
graduation of a Muslim student, or an atheist, or a Buddhist,
have to be tainted with a prayer to a God that has NO relevance
to them?
KY> CH> If a bunch of students want to get together and pray on campus,
that's
KY> CH> their business. But the instant I'm required to follow suit, then
I drag
KY> CH> out the big guns.
KY> ANd again, no one can be required to pray. That is a
KY> spiritual matter, and no one can force you to believe their
KY> way, no matter what they do.
You should start reading the court decisions about prayer IN THE
CLASSROOM, that students are FORCED to be subjected to.
Rod "...you may learn, as opposed to speaking crap" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Dance is thought mad by those who can't hear the music
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel boyco
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:56:56
EID:4c4d 227b5f00
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f008
* On 23-03-97 at 00:29, KEN YOUNG wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Re: Cracker Barrel boycot" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> God is who says who is a Christian and who isn't...
And to think, with all those Christian domestic terrorists, it
was Jim Staal that had that sole determination and right.
Rod "... I wonder what Jimson will say to your clear defiance of
his authority to determine who is and is not a Christian? Maybe
he will claim you aren't one?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Close your mind quick! Something blasphemous may get in!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 27 Mar 97 11:58:58
EID:74fa 227b5f40
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f082
* On 23-03-97 at 03:52, KEN YOUNG wrote to SHELBY SHERMAN,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> SS> What beef do you have against consenting adults who are
KY> SS> breaking no laws and harming no one?
KY> The only "beef" i have with them is that they are being very immoral...
Evidence?
KY> ...and are rebelling against their nature.
Homosexuals are rebelling against their innate homosexual nature?
Please explain and evidence, Lying Fuck.
Rod "...I know you won't!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Nuke a godless homeless commie gay baby whale for Christ
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Morality
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:13:00
EID:53b8 227b61a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f3cc
* On 23-03-97 at 00:31, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROBERT CURRY,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Morality" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> Do you really think it is gay bashing for one to say that
KY> KY> homosexuality is immoral?
KY> RC> Do you really think it is Christian bashing for one to say that
KY> RC> Christianity is evil?
KY> If they have reasoning behind it, probably not.
So what is your reasoning for hating gays? What is your
reasoning for lying about gays?
Rod "...and where is your evidence?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Jesus saves? Not on my salary he doesn't.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:16:02
EID:9a0b 227b6200
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f482
* On 23-03-97 at 16:57, KEN YOUNG wrote to MARK O'NEILL,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel boycott" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> And what's wrong with that? We all make choices all the time.
That
KY> KY> does not mean we are aware of all those choices.
KY> MO> It's not a choice, Boxhead. You've seen the "evidence" for this
so be a
KY> MO> man and admit you're wrong for once.
KY> I can't do that. I don't lie.
You cannot do it because it destroys your deity-construct. You
lie to perpetuate your God.
Read the references attached below.
Haldeman DC. The practice and ethics of sexual orientation conversion
therapy. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 1994;62:221-227.
McConaghy N, Armstrong MS, Blaszczynski A. Controlled comparison of
aversive therapy and convert sensitization in compulsive homosexuality.
Behaviour Research and Therapy 1981;19:425-434.
Morin SF, Rothblum ED. Removing the stigma: Fifteen years of progress.
American Psychologist 1991;46:947-949.
Weinrich JD, Snyder PJ, Pillard RC, Grant I, Jacobson DL, Robinson SR,
McCutchan JA. A factor analysis of the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid in
two
disparate samples. Archives of Sexual Behavior 1993;22:157-168.
The Journal of Homosexuality has also had some excellent articles, including
one reviewing all the various historical techniques used. A 1982 book
edited by Hetrick has a collection of a chapters on then-current techniques,
explaining why they don't work.
And don't give me that crap about not believing in psychological
research and data when your theories are based on behavioural
psychology themselves!
Rod "...you lying fuck, Ken" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: Name alternatives to eternal nothingness
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Euthanasia Yes!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:21:04
EID:c8d0 227b62a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f5b0
* On 24-03-97 at 09:57, RICHARD SMITH wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> ky> So then, if someone wants you to kill them, that would be
RS> ky> fine too, as they agreed to it?
RS> Sure, providing they're adults. I thought you were trying
RS> to be a libertarian . . . most libertarians *I* know are for
RS> euthanasia. Take David Hamilton, for instance. He has a
RS> terminal illness. If it ever got really bad and he wanted
RS> (as an adult) to end it before the pain got much worse,
RS> shouldn't he have the right to do so? Shouldn't he have the
RS> right to ask someone to help him do it, or even to do it for
RS> him?
The sad thing is that although 80% of Australians support
euthanasia, our Federal government overruled the Northern
Territory's act which allowed the certified terminally-ill
patient to request euthanasia by a doctor.
They can do this ONLY because the Territory is not a state. If
it were a state, the Feds would not be able to override the NT.
Of course, Western Australia is now resurrecting the "Medical
Right to Die Act" introduced in 1995. :)
Rod "...thank goodness!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Land rights for gay whales!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Jim Staal's possible hom
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:24:06
EID:ebb9 227b6300
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f666
* On 24-03-97 at 10:54, JIM STAAL wrote to RICHARD SMITH,
on the topic of "Jim Staal's possible hom" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> I am not homophobic. Satisfied?
Gays deserve to be bashed for speaking out for equal rights,
though, right Jim?
No, these things all happened because you shouted it out that you were
gay. If you had kept it to yourself, these things would not have
happened to you, now would they. - Jim Staal
You've been exposed...
Rod "...you lying shit!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * First rule of intelligent tinkering: Save all the parts
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice 1/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:30:08
EID:9d38 227b63c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f7d0
* On 23-03-97 at 03:47, KEN YOUNG wrote to KAREN DAVIS,
on the topic of "Freedom of choice" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> KY> How is it clear that no gay person can help being gay? There is
no
KY> KY> evidence supporting this whatsoever.
KY> KD> There is tons, Ken. Just look.
KY> KD> If they could, there would be therapies that WORK to change gay
KY> KD> individuals straight, just like there are therapies for depression
and
KY> KD> mood disorders, etc.
KY> There have been gays to change to being heterosexual.
There have been a handful out of tens of thousands who have
succeeded in being brainwashed into believing that they can be
heterosexual in activity.
Here's some references from an annotated bibliography off the
net...
___---------------------------------------------------------------------
Blair, Ralph. (1984). Ex-gay. New York: HCCC.
Blair begins with a brief review of ways in which Scripture has
been used to support the oppression of Jewish people, of Catholics, and
of people of color. He then notes the importance of recognizing how
our understanding and perception of many groups of people have changed
historically. Finally, he turns to a consideration of the oppression
of homosexuals, and of the "ex-gay" literature, which he feels
comprises "just a recent chapter in the recidivist wrong turnings in
church history" (p. 2).
Blair's central thesis is that "there is still no documented
empirical verification of any permanent change from homosexual
orientation to heterosexual orientation through the 'ex-gay' processes"
(p. 2). He supports this by describing dozens of claims and
publications proffered by allegedly "ex-gay" persons and organizations.
And, he asserts that most persons who have claimed to have become "ex-
gay" have in fact returned to their original orientation. He also
notes that the organizations that published the original "ex-gay"
claims have not retracted those claims, in spite of their subsequent
falsification. In fact, those organizations continue to publish
information falsely alleging that these persons have become permanently
"ex-gay."
The primary usefulness of Blair's article is in raising readers'
awareness that the claims offered by "ex-gay" groups appear to be
misleading at best, and patently false at worst. The weakness of this
article is Blair's use of nearly as anecdotal an approach to "research"
and criticism as the approaches espoused by those he criticizes. He
makes many excellent points, but also tends to perseverate in some of
his arguments (e.g., going on for 10 long pages about a single study).
He also mixes, somewhat randomly, sound criticisms based on research
methodology and on theological scholarship, with criticisms based on
his own apparent personal dislikes for some of the organizations
described. In summary, this article provides an enlightening look at
many of the spurious/inaccurate claims made by "ex-gay" groups, but
would have been stronger and more convincing if it had been done in a
somewhat more concise and scholarly way.
Cameron, Paul. (1992). What causes homosexual desire and can it
be changed? Washington, D.C.: Family Research Institute, Inc.
This piece is the basic position paper used by Focus on the
Family; it has been and continues to be widely distributed to
interested (presumably, conservative) Christians who want to know more
about homosexual orientation and behavior. Using a simple question-
and-answer format, it purports to provide data regarding the "etiology"
of homosexual orientation, recruitment of children by homosexuals, the
effect of religious convictions on sexual conduct, and "transformation"
of homosexual orientation through psychotherapy, or through religious
or spiritual conversion.
The author (who has been ejected from the American Psychological
Association for his consistently unethical misreporting of scientific
data) asserts that homosexual orientation can "certainly (be changed
and that) many people have turned away from homosexuality -- almost as
many people as call themselves 'gay'" (p. 7). Not surprisingly, the
data cited is outdated and inconsistent with more recent findings, as
well as re-interpreted and misrepresented to fit the conservative, gay-
and lesbian-hating agenda of the author. I include the piece only
because it is now quite widely-distributed, and may be the only thing
people have read about this subject, and therefore potentially very
influential, as well as harmful in presenting deliberately false
information about gay men and lesbian women. It is also a strong
example of how research findings may be deliberately twisted and/or
misreported to support a person's or organization's particular
ideological ends.
Comstock, Gary D. (1993). Gay Theology Without Apology.
Cleveland: The Pilgrim Press.
This is an outstanding book, written primarily for readers who
have already given some thought to relevant theological and social
scientific work in this area. Comstock uses the Exodus story and the
Jesus story to frame his theology, and to argue for appropriate forms
of pastoral/church responsiveness to gay men and lesbian women. The
common threads (between the two stories) he explicates are "the
unacceptability of pain and suffering inflicted upon one person or
people by another" and the significance of both as "stor(ies) of
liberation and change from slavery to freedom" (p. 10).
He raises several issues that I found particularly exciting,
interesting, and useful in thinking about pastoral care. The first is
his insistence that we do not just accept the fact that the Bible
contains biases (he addresses these biases most particularly in the
Levitical codes), but that we engage and challenge them. The second is
his analysis of parallels between Israelite culture around the time of
the exile to Babylonia, and U.S. culture over the past three decades,
and how in both cases relative economic strength or weakness led to
relative acceptance or rejection of marginal members of communities.
The third is his notion that the meaning of Jesus' story is not about
looking to Jesus for answers to our human quandaries, or as "the
answer" to our dilemmas, but is about finding our own answers,
specifically through working out our relationships with others. And
fourth, his notion that God is not outside us, but between us -- that
God exists in our mutuality and reciprocity in relationships.
Comstock's last chapter, "Credo," addresses issues of God's identity,
sin, salvation, grace, the meaning of Jesus, sacraments of Baptism and
Communion, and especially, the essentialness of "creat(ing) and be(ing)
in community in which (all) people can give, contribute, and feel
valuable" (p. 20).
While this book doesn't consider the issue of reorientation
specifically, Comstock makes it abundantly clear why changing one's
orientation is not a possibility that any truly Christian person would
consider advocating for another. I liked this book tremendously, and
found that his proposed theology (particularly the idea of God existing
in our relationships) powerful and helpful. The only shortcoming I
found in this book was his general emphasis on gay men, with
considerably less
attention to lesbian women, although they are implicitly included in
much of his discourse. Overall, however, this is a terrific book, and
would be one of the two "must-reads" I would suggest from this
bibliography.
Hilton, Bruce. (1993). Can Homophobia Be Cured? Nashville:
Abingdon Press.
This book, written from a United Methodist perspective, begins
with a chapter that briefly defines and describes homophobia. In
setting the tone for the remainder of the book, the author notes that
"we of the Church have forgotten that the primary issue is not the
causes of homosexuality, or whether it can be 'cured,' or whether its
practice is a sin, but do we love our neighbors, whoever they are?" (p.
21).
Hilton uses a simple question-and-answer format to address a
variety of issues, including people's feelings and attitudes toward
many issues related to sexuality, and some of what we know about gay
people (including a debunking of many of the common myths about gay men
and lesbians). He also lays out (at a fairly basic level) some of
the current scholarship on Biblical statements about homosexuality and
>>> Continued to next message
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice 2/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:30:10
EID:6d38 227b63c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f7d2
>>> Continued from previous message
homosexual acts, and describes parallels between the contemporary use
of Scripture to support the oppression of gay people and historical
uses of Scripture to support other forms of oppression. He also
describes what the United Methodist Church has had to say, and
currently says about some of these issues, and most importantly,
describes what our ministry should be to each other. And, he speaks
specifically to the "ex-gay" movement, and the many problems with that
approach. His final chapter focusses on whether homophobia, not
homosexual orientation, can be cured, and how to get started on the
road to change, offering suggestions both for individuals, and for
congregations who are interested in examining and changing their own
homophobia attitudes and behaviors.
The book is intended as a first-read, perhaps, for people who are
just starting to think about some of these issues. Hilton speaks to
the reader who is willing to consider arguments that come from a place
other than Biblical literalism and/or unexamined homophobia. This
would be an excellent resource for confused, or uncertain, or wondering
people in a congregation who are willing to learn more, and to examine
their own prejudices in the light of current theological and social
scientific thought.
Krajeski, James P., Myers, Michael F., Valgemae, Allan, and
Pattison, E. Mansell. (1981). "Ex-gays": Religious Abuse of
Psychiatry? American Journal of Psychiatry, 138(6), 852-853.
This is actually a Letters to the Editor section of the Journal,
in response to the Pattison & Pattison article described elsewhere in
this bibliography, and Mansell Pattison's reply to those letters. The
first three authors discuss some of the biases in the Pattison &
Pattison research, including the following. (1) Krajeski notes that
"(T)he authors did not examine the possible abuse of psychiatry by
religion evidenced in the buttressing of religious tenets by
questionable or inaccurate psychiatric concepts. For example, all
respondents were reported to find homosexual relationships fleeting and
emotionally unfulfilling. Since many homosexuals form long-lasting,
emotionally fulfilling relationships, the subjects' conclusions would
appear to represent their own homophobia or neuroticism. Rather than
exploring these issues and providing education concerning
homosexuality, it appears that these inaccurate stereotypes were used
as a tool to enforce adherence to a religious belief concerning the
immorality of homosexual behavior" (p. 852). (2) Myers notes that the
study contains "obvious and therapeutic bias, small study sample, and
less than rigorous methodology" (p. 852), and points out that
"(P)atients in severe moral conflict about their homosexual behavior
who do embrace the tenets of a particular religion, no matter how
ambivalent, should be supported in their efforts to seek clarity. The
therapeutic task is one of assessing what homosexual behavior means to
the individual in the context of his or her total life experience.
Therapist neutrality is fundamental; bias in either direction ('gay is
good' or 'gay is sinful') may be alienating or destructive to the
patient" (pp. 852-853). (3) Valgemae notes that "(T)he term 'ex-gay'
does great injustice to the variations present among people who exhibit
homosexual behavior... If investigators do not differentiate among
origins of homosexual behavior, they only make more difficult the
efforts to legitimize true homosexuality in a society that currently
loads all homosexuals with an extra burden in life: if not that of
trying to change one's sexual orientation, then that of trying to
accept homosexuality within oneself" (p. 853). In his reply, Pattison
does not address any of these criticisms, but repeats some of the
rationale and claims from the original study.
This is an important piece to read after reading the original
research. While these responses fail to note all of the problems with
the Pattison & Pattison research, the Blair article listed elsewhere in
this bibliography does raise additional other issues not addressed
here, and between this article and the one by Blair, one can get a good
sense of some of the serious problems with a piece of research that is
being repeatedly cited in support of reorientation therapy.
Morin, Stephen F., & Charles, Kenneth A. (1983). Heterosexual
bias in psychotherapy. In Joan Murray and Paul R. Abramson (Eds.),
Bias in Psychotherapy (pp. 309-338). New York: Praeger.
This chapter offers a clearly-written critique of many of the
heterosexist biases that are prevalent in psychotherapy today. Many of
the issues raised here are also relevant to the provision of pastoral
care. Briefly, the authors define "heterosexual bias. . . as a belief
system that values heterosexuality as superior to and/or more 'natural'
than homosexuality" (p. 309). These biases include: (1) those in the
basic value systems underlying therapy (and pastoral care), (2) biases
in certain specific psychological theories (particularly in
psychodynamic and learning theories), (3) biases in language used to
describe behaviors and feelings, and (4) biases in interventions --
including conversion therapy.
With regard to the last issue, the authors note that while the
many methods that have been employed in attempts to alter homosexual
orientation have "regularly fail(ed). . . their poor success rates do
not mean that these efforts are harmless" (p. 321). And, the authors
go on to describe the various forms of harm caused by such
interventions. The authors also describe the evolution of lesbian- and
gay-affirmative therapies, and offer a brief summary of current
developmental thought on the coming-out process. Finally, they provide
an excellent analysis of the power politics of psychotherapy, and offer
four important guidelines that should be taken to heart by any care-
provider -- secular or pastoral -- when working with lesbian women, gay
men, or bisexual people.
I think this is a particularly useful article. The authors are
much more attentive to gender-inclusivity than are many others. While
much of the work in this area focusses specifically on gay men, this
article considers lesbian women as well, in both language and in
assumptions. Their descriptions of biases can help care-givers examine
their own belief-systems more carefully and critically, and their list
of guidelines offer the potential for radically improving the quality
of care that one gives.
Murphy, Timothy F. (1992). Freud and sexual reorientation
therapy. Journal of Homosexuality, 23(3), 21-38.
This is a good, concise piece, accessible to readers without
extensive background in psychology, that summarizes some of Freud's key
views on homosexuality and on reorientation therapy. The key points
include: (1) Freud's belief that human beings are by nature bisexual,
and a brief discussion of the ways in which he construed bisexuality,
(2) the importance of constitutional bisexuality for the origins of
homoeroticism; and (3) the influence of psychodevelopmental events on
the development of homoerotic desires and behaviors. More important in
their implications for psychotherapy, and potentially for pastoral care
as well, are Freud's: (1) rejection of the belief that homoeroticism in
and of itself constituted pathological behavior (although this must be
tempered by his belief that homoeroticism did reflect a form of
"inferior" or "arrested" development), (2) purported general refusal to
accept patients for treatment if their "only complaint was
homosexuality," (p. 28), (3) resistance to the legal prosecution of
homoeroticism, and (4) advocacy for social tolerance of homoeroticism.
With regard to reorientation therapy, Murphy describes several
examples where Freud questions or cautions against the likely success
of conversion therapy, including the full text of Freud's now-famous
letter to the mother of a homosexual son. Interestingly, it is
Murphy's contention that neither does Freud "rule out conversion
therapy as impossible," (p. 27), but Murphy fails to provide much
evidence to support his case. Freud's general assertion was that if a
person was not neurotically conflicted about her or his homoeroticism,
neither reorientation or other forms of psychotherapy were particularly
likely to be successful. And, as Murphy repeatedly notes, "Whatever he
thought about conversion therapy, Freud thought society could and
should reduce the burdens on those who loved in homoerotic ways" (p.
36).
Although a little simplistic, Murphy's article offers a good place
to begin to understand some of Freud's thoughts about homoeroticism.
Freud's work is particularly important since it has provided the
foundation for much psychodynamic thinking today. And, it is important
to recognize that it is primarily psychodynamically-oriented clinicians
who continue to cling today, in spite of the lack of any supporting
empirical evidence, to the notion that homoeroticism does in fact
constitute a form of pathology. I believe that as pastoral caregivers,
we have a responsibility to understand both historical thought and
contemporary research in this area, rather than relying on possibly
inaccurate perceptions of what "psychologists believe" about
homoeroticism.
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Pro-life? Then what are you doing about TOBACCO?
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice 3/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:30:12
EID:fd39 227b63c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f7d4
>>> Continued from previous message
Murphy, Timothy F. (1992). Redirecting sexual orientation:
Techniques and justifications. The Journal of Sex Research, 29(4),
501-523.
This article provides a very good historical overview of various
techniques that have been employed in attempts to change homosexual
persons' orientation. Murphy describes three major classes of
treatments -- behavioral techniques, psychodynamic interventions, and
biological therapies. Justification for the use of particular forms of
reorientation therapy varied. In some cases, implementation of therapy
was based specifically on beliefs that homoerotic orientation was
pathological, and should therefore be "treated" as were other
conditions that warranted medical treatment. In other cases, treatment
stemmed from "respecting the wishes of certain individuals who would
rather have sexual desires and behaviors other than the ones they do"
(p. 505). Murphy notes a general historical shift in attitudes from
the former perspective to the latter, "as evidenced by the fluid status
of homoeroticism within orthodox psychiatry's diagnostic nomenclature"
(p. 517), which he also reviews. However, despite some changes in ways
of talking about homoeroticism (e.g., as a disease process,
psychosocial maldevelopment, or moral defect) thinking about it in the
psychiatric community appears to retain the assumption that -- despite
a plethora of scientific evidence to the contrary -- it is indeed a
"pathological state or psychological disorder. Indeed, even in the
U.S., despite the formal action of the APA, many psychiatrists continue
to believe that homoeroticism is a serious psychic disorder. . . Some
even hold the view that involuntary treatment is appropriate. . . Such
views, of course, continue to encourage the experimental pursuit and
use of reorientation techniques" (p. 518).
Murphy raises a number of important questions and issues. (1)
Historically, most reorientation therapy has been conducted on men;
Murphy's analysis of possible reasons for this unevenness is very good.
(2) Despite a history of failure, there has been and is an on-going
search for reorientation methods that "work." (3) "(I)t is a matter of
debate whether a person can come to seek reorientation in a way that is
properly called 'voluntary'" (p. 519). Both overt punitive
circumstances like incarceration in a Nazi concentration camp or in a
U.S. prison, and more covert (sometimes) forces like societal pressures
and homophobic responses lead one to seriously question whether "men
and women requesting reorientation do so in a truly voluntary way" (p.
519).
Finally, Murphy notes that psychiatry has continually treated the
"problems" with homoeroticism as if they were centered in the
individual rather than in that person's social surroundings. and that
contemporary psychiatric practice continues to "treat the person who
suffers rather than ameliorating the social forces which devalue
homoeroticism" (p. 519). This last point brings us to issues that are
particularly relevant to pastoral care. Pastors need to be aware of
the data on reorientation therapies, and the implicit and profound
biases in the use of such techniques. As Murphy notes, "(T)here would
be no reorientation techniques where there was no interpretation that
homoeroticism is an inferior state, an interpretation that in many ways
continues to be medically defined, criminally enforced, socially
sanctioned, and religiously justified" (p. 520). Murphy raises a host
of important issues that should help pastoral caregivers reflect upon
their own assumptions and the kinds of care they advocate and provide.
Pattison, E. Mansell, & Pattison, Myrna Loy. (1980). "Ex-gays":
Religiously mediated changed in homosexuals. American Journal of
Psychiatry, 137(12), 1553-1562.
This is a research report that is perhaps the most widely-cited
recent article in support of reorientation therapy. The authors
describe a psychiatric study of 11 men who self-identified as
homosexual and who reportedly, through their involvement in "folk
therapy" in a pentecostal church, changed their orientation to
heterosexual. Based on their findings, the authors conclude that "the
phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without
explicit (psychiatric) treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be
much more common than previously thought" (p. 1553). They argue that
if a person is ideologically committed to change, and engages in a
milieu (e.g., that provided by a church with a 'gay is sinful' stance)
that supports his or her ideology, change may be a relatively common,
if not easy, outcome.
The study itself suffers from numerous methodological flaws, which
have been addressed at length elsewhere (see, for example, the Blair
and Krajeski et al. pieces in this bibliography). Perhaps two of the
most glaring problems are the incredibly small sample-size, and the
authors' conclusions based on their own reports of subjects' responses.
With regard to sample size, the authors' review of participants in the
particular church's "ex-gay" program offered a potential pool of 300
such persons. However, of those 300 clients (over a 5-year period),
only 30 "claimed to have changed from homosexuality to heterosexuality"
(p. 1554). And of those, only 11 men agreed to participate in the
study. This degree of self-selection alone should make the reader
cautious about the meaningfulness of the data. With regard to the
second problem, of those 11 men who participated, only four scored as
Kinsey 6-0 (that is, as having an exclusively homosexual orientation
upon entering the program, and having an exclusively heterosexual
orientation upon completing it). The majority of men interviewed
(including those who had subsequently entered into heterosexual
marriages) reported continuing to have recurrent same-sex dreams,
fantasies, and impulses. One questions how they can then be accurately
characterized as "ex-gay."
The authors' own biases are evident throughout, in repeatedly
describing homosexuality as "deviant," and in suggesting that the
"social position that 'gay is good'. . . does not change the problem of
destruction of personal identity inherent in (that position)" (p.
1561). They cite another study regarding "a homophile church, (in
which) the search for identity and community support was often vitiated
by its liberal theological stance, which accepted the identify of the
person as homosexual. Thus, the church ideology perpetuated the
confusional problem of identity" (p. 1561). In contrast, Pattison and
Pattison's note that "our subjects rejected the ideology that 'gay is
good' within the framework of their orthodox Christian theology (and)
reduced the social deviancy of homosexuality . . . through personally
changing the deviant condition" (p. 1561). The authors clearly view
homosexuality as a pathological, deviant, and highly undesirable
condition which they assert can be changed in people who want to
change. They argue, based on their correspondence with unidentified
"numerous informal 'ex-gay' self-help groups in existence throughout
the U.S., Europe, and Asia . . . (that) there appears to be a
substantial number of persons who are similar (in changing their
orientation) to the population represented here" (pp. 1561-62).
This is a particularly dangerous kind of article. It is published
in a highly prestigious professional journal, which alone lends it
credence that it does not deserve, based on its shoddy methodology, and
clearly-biased assumptions. It appears to be sufficiently "scientific"
that is may be (and in fact, has been) appropriated as "sound evidence"
by those who would argue for the appropriateness and success of
reorientation therapy, and of "ex-gay" movements in churches. It is to
be hoped that pastors seeking support for a response to persons in
their congregations would reflect carefully and thoughtfully about
similar pseudo-scientific reports, before accepting them as a basis
upon which to construct pastoral care.
Scanzoni, Letha, & Mollenkott, Virginia Ramey. (1978). Is the
Homosexual My Neighbor: Another Christian View. San Francisco:
Harper & Row.
This book is probably the classic work that addresses issues of
homosexuality, theology, and the church. Although it only mentions the
specific issue of change in orientation briefly (on p. 4), it raises a
host of issues that are the focus of much of today's conversation about
"appropriate" responses (by the church) to homosexual persons. The
authors provide a basic grounding in some of the myths, research
issues, and relevant data regarding homosexuality. They include an
excellent description and critique of the widely-used Kinsey scale, and
its relation to the broader issue of orientation, a brief review of
much of the other contemporary (as of their date of writing) scientific
research in this area, and of the inadequacies of research models (many
of which persist today). They also provide an exegesis of what has
become the classic "Samaritan" analogy, of the Levitical codes
(including perhaps the only reference to lesbian women in the
literature vis-a-vis these codes), of Paul's pronouncements about
sexuality, and of questions that are not answered by the Scriptures.
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Pro-life? Then what are you doing about TOBACCO?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice 4/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:30:14
EID:cd3b 227b63c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f7d6
>>> Continued from previous message
Perhaps the most useful chapters from a pastoral care perspective
are the last three in the book, which deal with ethical and theological
issues. In Ch. 7, the authors describe current fears that many people
have about homosexuals, which fears (among other factors) give rise to
homophobia, and note that the church has a responsibility to respond
both to fears and to homophobia. In Ch. 8, the continuing "debate in
American Christendom" is described, including three prevalent
perspectives that appear to characterize many Christians and Christian
churches today. And, Ch. 9 proposes a "homosexual Christian ethic"
which draws together knowledge about sexuality, Scriptural
understandings, and our God-given capacity to care for one another.
This is a strong book, in spite of its age. Rather than being
outdated, most of what the authors discuss is even more strongly-
supported today by contemporary theological and social scientific
scholarship that has occurred since the book was first published. If
you are just starting to think about these issues, and want a good
theologically-informed starting-place, and were only going to read one
selection from this bibliography, this would probably be the book to
read.
(No author). (1991, February). Transforming congregations:
Upholding Biblical standards. Christian Social Action, p. 31.
This article briefly describes the basic assumptions of the
Transforming Congregations movement in United Methodism. Briefly, this
movement asserts that: (1) they are "a ministry to and with
homosexuals and their families," (2) that "the acceptance . . . of
homosexuality as a normal sexual expression . . . is harmful to the
homosexual person, compromising to the biblical integrity we are called
to uphold, and destructive to the religious heritage we so dearly
cherish," (3) that "homosexual persons . . . 'are persons of sacred
worth who bear the wounds of fallen humanity and need the sexual
healing only Christ can bring,'" and (4) that only through restoration
of a "healthy heterosexuality" can homosexuals become "full and
responsible member(s) of a local church" (p. 31). The article
basically asserts that the beliefs espoused are accurate (without
providing supporting evidence of any kind), and fails to note that
other forms of loving, Christian response are possible, or that there
is any psychological or alternative contemporary theological
scholarship which should be considered in deciding on the appropriate
form of response. This article is useful in providing a snapshot view
of the Transforming Congregations movement.
Additional Resources
While the majority of these do not consider reorientation
specifically, they are very useful in considering a variety of issues
in psychotherapy and in pastoral care primarily of lesbian women, gay
men, and bisexual people, although many of the theological and ethical
issues addressed in these materials are relevant to all persons.
Boston Lesbian Psychologies Collective. (1987). Lesbian
Psychologies -- Explorations & Challenges. Urbana: University of
Illinois Press. An excellent collection of contemporary work on a
range of topics related to lesbian women's lives and experiences,
including identity, relationships, family, therapy, and community
issues. An extremely valuable resource for pastoral care.
Boswell, John. (1980). Christianity, Social Tolerance, and
Homosexuality. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. This is the
classic treatise on social responses to gay men (primarily), with
particular attention to responses by the Christian church, in Western
European cultures from the beginning of the Christian era to the 14th
century. The first two chapters -- "Introduction" and "Definitions"
stand well on their own, and provide an excellent introduction to
important concepts and issues.
Gonsiorek, John C. (1988). Current and future directions in
gay/lesbian affirmative mental health practice. In Michael Shernoff &
William Scott (Eds.), The Sourcebook of Lesbian/Gay Health Care, 2nd
ed. (pp. 107-113). Washington, D.C.: National Lesbian/Gay Health
Foundation. Delineates areas where the author feels current work on
therapy with gay men and lesbian women has fallen short, and suggests
directions for future research in this area.
Greenberg, Daniel F., & Bystryn, Marcia H. (1982). Christian
intolerance of homosexuality. American Journal of Sociology, 88(3),
515-548. For people who don't have time to read Boswell (elsewhere in
this list), this article briefly outlines the history of Christian
responses to homosexuality from "late antiquity" (ancient Greece) to
the Middle Ages. What is most notable is that, contrary to the oft-
cited "fact" that all cultures at all times and locations have
condemned homosexual relationships, the evidence shows that cultural
responses have been highly variable. The authors suggest several
hypotheses to explain this variability.
Hunt, Mary E. (1992). Fierce Tenderness: A Feminist Theology of
Friendship. New York: Crossroad. This is a wonderful book that puts
friendships of all kinds, between women of all kinds, at the center of
a theological-ethical framework. This work has profound implications
for pastoral care of all kinds.
Krajeski, James P. (1986). Psychotherapy with gay men and
lesbians -- a history of controversy. In Terry S. Stein & Carol J.
Cohen (Eds.), Contemporary Perspectives on Psychotherapy with Lesbians
and Gay Men (pp. 9-25). New York: Plenum. This first chapter to a
very good book identifies key issues regarding past research on
homosexuality, current research issues in this area, trends in
psychotherapy, blind spots in the psychotherapeutic literature
(including a failure to address possible negative effects of
psychotherapy on lesbians and gay men), and the emergence of new
ethical issues in this area, including a discussion of reorientation
programs.
Martin, A. Damien. (1984). The perennial Canaanites: The sin of
homosexuality. Et cetera, 41, 340-361. This is a delightful piece
that takes on, with wit, intelligence, and thoughtful consideration,
the Fundamentalist arguments against homosexuality based on the
Creation story, the Sodom story, the Levitical codes, and the four New
Testament statements by Paul.
Miletich, Leo N. (1984). Now I lay me down to sleep. The
Humanist, 44, 28-31. This is a slightly satirical "bedtime prayer"
intended to raise readers' consciousness about gay people, and about
many churches' and public figures' responses to them.
Mollenkott, Virginia Ramey. (1992). Sensuous Spirituality: Out
>From Fundamentalism. New York: Crossroad. This was my very favorite
of all the things I read. It is an extraordinary book on theology,
framed by, in, and around issues of gender and sexuality.
Nelson, James B. (1978). Embodiment - An Approach to Sexuality
and Christian Theology. Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House. This
book makes an especially important contribution in placing
homosexuality (on which there is one chapter) within the much broader
context of human sexuality. Nelson's thesis is that a fundamental part
of our humanity is our sexuality, and that understanding our sexuality
-- understanding ourselves as embodied creatures -- is a critically
important task for theology.
Rice, Howard R. (1982). Homophobia: The overlooked sin. Church
& Society, 73, 5-13.
Writing from a Presbyterian (USA) perspective, the author outlines many
of the causes of and appropriate responses to homophobia.
Sheppard, Gerald T. (1985). The use of Scripture within the
Christian ethical debate concerning same-sex oriented persons. Union
Theological Seminary Quarterly Review, 40, 13-35.
I found this article to be a very tough read, but well-worthwhile. The
author provides a very interesting ethical analysis of
"homosexualities," Scriptural responses to them, and alternative
Christian ethical responses. A good piece that offers some unique
insights.
>>> Continued to next message
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Pro-life? Then what are you doing about TOBACCO?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice 5/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:30:16
EID:5d3a 227b63c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339f7d8
>>> Continued from previous message
Woodman, Natalie Jane, & Lenna, Harry R. (1980). Counseling with
Gay Men and Women. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass. Offers gay- and
lesbian-affirming approach to counselling, including chapters on the
coming-out process, working with gay couples and their families,
working with gay youth specifically, and a historical and contemporary
overview of social, clinical, and religious responses to homosexuality.
* OLX 2.1 TD * ...Pro-life? Then what are you doing about TOBACCO?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:46:18
EID:5c95 227b65c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339fb9a
* On 23-03-97 at 12:17, JIM STAAL wrote to KAREN DAVIS,
on the topic of "Cheese Whiz" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> Ron Fitzsimmons may or may not be a doctor either, but he said 3000-4000
JS> viable fetuses with healthy mothers.
No he did not, Liar Jim.
I have already quoted the Reuters news report that states YOU ARE
WRONG.
Rod "...shall I quote it again, stupid?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: Life is good if you're happy. Refute.
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:49:20
EID:131c 227b6620
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339fc50
* On 23-03-97 at 12:36, JIM STAAL wrote to MARILYN BURGE,
on the topic of "Book Theft" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> MB> I don't know how much real difference it makes. In this country,
JS> MB> many people who are married by a JP are "spiritually" married,
JS> MB> and many who are wedded by the church don't have a clue what a
JS> MB> spiritual marriage would be.
JS> MB> In other words, it's all in the minds of the individual involved,
JS> MB> after all said and done, anyway.
JS> Marilyn, sometimes I think I don't give you enough credit. Very wisely
JS> stated. We agree! (but it still takes a man and a woman to fulfill
JS> Biblical marriage)
Of course, we're talking about CIVIL marriage, Jim. It's nice to
know you support civil marriages between any two people of any
gender.
Rod "...thanks!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * When in trouble or in doubt, run around, scream & shout!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:51:22
EID:ed89 227b6660
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339fcca
* On 23-03-97 at 12:08, JIM STAAL wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER,
on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> KS> Sort of like your komrades who shoot abortion doctors, eh?
JS> None of my comrades have ever even had such a thought.
Oh, that's right. They're comrades to the point they pull the
trigger, then you are inwardly proud of their acts while
condemning them as "false Christian Scum" so that your pathetic
God is protected from yet another attack!
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The best prophet of the future is the past
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 27 Mar 97 12:53:24
EID:ff08 227b66a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339fd44
* On 24-03-97 at 10:40, JIM STAAL wrote to DAN CEPPA,
on the topic of "jesus needed..." in echo Holysmoke:
JS> I have know 'book of lies'.
You know, your erudite nature Jim, is so telling.
Maybe you should repunctuate --
I have, know, 'book of lies'.
Rod ".... you can FOAD now :)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Fundamentalist: (n) Ape-like creature with a Bible
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 27 Mar 97 18:17:26
EID:c8e0 227b9220
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a4936
* On 24-03-97 at 15:03, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to SUE ALEXANDER,
on the topic of "Educational Experienc" in echo Holysmoke:
KS> SA> Funny. I looked these up in a dictionary. Conjugating a verb
KS> SA>covers all the bases above...both the person and the tense...as well
as
KS> SA>mood and such. A synopsis (which I looked up before asking the
KS> SA>question) is a outline or brief statement on a subject, such as a
KS> SA>synopsis of an article. I only graduated with science degrees,
but it
KS> SA>does not appear to me that one can do a synopsis of a verb...maybe
that
KS> SA>is covered in advanced English classes??
KS> Good grief, you shouldn't be asking Staaled-brain. He never got past
KS> "See Dick, See Jane"...
Jim didn't get far past the line:
"See Spot. See Spot's Dick. See Spot Dick Jane."
Apparently if you can comprehend that clearly anti-biblical
concept, you get to graduate with that English Major and get to
be officially erudite! :)
Rod "...hohohohoh" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Any milk can make cheese. Here, have some gerbil cheese.
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Kenny's CONTRADICTION!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 18:20:28
EID:54f6 227b9280
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a49ec
* On 24-03-97 at 15:03, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Kenny's CONTRADICTION!" in echo Holysmoke:
KS> KY>Disturb others? Well, guess what? We are humans, and
KS> KY>if not with religion,
KS> KY>we will surely find a way to disturb or offend others.
KS> BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA...koff, snort, hack, spit...
QUOTE FILE!!! :) :)
Rod "hhhohohoh!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Can I put my Sharp in your mainframe on the desktop?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Kenny's CONTRADICTION!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 18:20:30
EID:2f9d 227b9280
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a49ee
* On 24-03-97 at 15:03, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Kenny's CONTRADICTION!" in echo Holysmoke:
KS> KY>Disturb others? Well, guess what? We are humans, and
KS> KY>if not with religion,
KS> KY>we will surely find a way to disturb or offend others.
KS> BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA...koff, snort, hack, spit...
QUOTE FILE!!! :) :)
Rod "hhhohohoh!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Can I put my Sharp in your mainframe on the desktop?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 27 Mar 97 18:34:32
EID:fa23 227b9440
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a4d38
* On 22-03-97 at 22:44, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ROGER HUNTER,
on the topic of "Oops, Caught Again" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> ... I got two 9mm's that say 'stay the heck outa my front yard, pig!'
- JS
I wonder when Jim is going to take this murderous tendency of his
to a local abortion clinic, bank, or gay bar!
Rod "...won't that be fun.... NOT!" Swift
* OLX 2.1 TD * If Jesus is Jewish, why does he have a Spanish name?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Ask And Ye Shall Rece 2/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 18:53:34
EID:d495 227b96a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a51ae
* On 24-03-97 at 08:09, SUE ARMSTRONG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ask And Ye Shall Rece 2/" in echo Holysmoke:
SA> RS> Visitors: [knock on door]
SA> RS> Residents: Hello.
SA> RS> Visitors: We're from the NFL and were wondering if
SA> RS> you've heard the words and seen the
SA> RS> videos of our one true saviour football?
SA> RS> Residents: Can't you see that we're trying to hold a
SA> RS> fellowship meeting here.
SA> RS> Visitors: We won't take much of your time, we just
SA> RS> want you to know the glory and love of
SA> RS> NFL football that we share in our daily
SA> RS> lives.
SA> Residents: Sorry, but we're baseball types here.
SA> Visitors: Heretics!
But of course! Worshipping false sporting gods. They are false
sporting scum!
Rod "...ho hoho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * The foolish and dead alone never change their opinion
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Sue Armstrong
|Sub: Normalities
|Date: 27 Mar 97 18:54:36
EID:3aa1 227b96c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a51ec
* On 25-03-97 at 09:40, SUE ARMSTRONG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Normalities" in echo Holysmoke:
SA> Here's something I thought you might be interested in, if only for
SA> the chuckle factor. I came across this in "Freak Legion", the guide
SA> to fomori .. it reminded me VERY strongly of Ken Young - hell, he
SA> could be the head of Homogeneity Incorporated. It's especially
SA> enlightening that he appears to defend the militias.
Ahhh.. Another anti-gay "we love gays and want to fix them"
group.
Rod "...how typical. Thanks for the info, but Ken should really
have been sent it too :) :)" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Could crop circles be the work of a cereal killer?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Normalities
|Date: 27 Mar 97 18:54:38
EID:5c39 227b96c0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a51ee
This message was from SUE ARMSTRONG to ROD SWIFT,
and was forwarded to you by ROD SWIFT.
-------------------------
Here's something I thought you might be interested in, if only for
the chuckle factor. I came across this in "Freak Legion", the guide
to fomori .. it reminded me VERY strongly of Ken Young - hell, he
could be the head of Homogeneity Incorporated. It's especially
enlightening that he appears to defend the militias.
Spelling of "Homogeneity" corrected from original text, where it is,
for some unknown reason, uniformly misspelled. All British
spellings mine. Annotations in square brackets mine for the benefit
of those reading who are not familiar with the terms or concepts
used herein.
--
Homogeneity Incorporated
Victims Targeted: Homogeneity Incorporated is a subsidiary of
Pentex [Not to be confused with Pentax, the camera company. -W].
The organisation preys on homosexual men and women who seek to
"cure" themselves of their sexuality. Believing themselves sick,
unnatural or evil as a result of constant indoctrination by a
heterosexist society, these unhappy gays and lesbians all too
readily sign up for Homogeneity Incorporated's ten week, $2,000
course.
Not all homosexuals fall prey to self-hatred. Well-adjusted
homosexuals are targeted by Homogeneity Incorporated's Realignment
Division. This branch of the organisation funds antigay groups such
as the USA's Moral Majority [hasn't this been defunct for years?
-W], and in England, the Neo-Nazi group C-18, in order to further an
atmosphere in which pro-gay laws will be repealed, and gay-positive
images will be stamped out. The fewer happy gays and lesbians who
exist, according to the Realignment Division's twisted strategy, the
more unhappy homosexuals there will be for Homogeneity Incorporated
to recruit.
Homogeneity Incorporated promises its potential members that they
can be converted into happy, fully functional heterosexuals.
Hypnotherapy, group counselling sessions and aversion therapy are
elements included in the organisation's "cure". By the time
recruits have completed the course, the majority are completely
asexual. Many of them are no longer even human.
Public Facade: Homogeneity Incorporated advertises in religious
magazines and newsletters, periodicals, and on late-night cable
television stations such as OmniTV. Its brochures are often
distributed to doctors, psychotherapists and other health-care
professionals, obtaining their mailing addresses from other
Pentex-owned conservative organisations. Fundamentalist church
groups provide Homogeneity Incorporate with some of its richest
pickings. The organisation is fronted by the charismatic Jim Fowler
[KY's pseudonym? - W], a blonde and hearty Southerner. He
personally endoreses the company's "cure", claiming that it saved
him from a loveless homsexual life of sin and debauchery.
The Real Story: Homosexuals already prey to low willpower and
negative self-esteem provide Homogeneity Incorporated with easy
marks for Bane [that's spirits of corruption for the WoD impaired
-W] possession. During the regular hypnotherapy sessions which are
scattered throughout the course, individuals are exposed to
Pentex-supplied Banes. While not everyone who signs on to
Homogeneity Incorporated's homosexual cure course becomes possessed,
those who do not are permanently disturbed by the process. Their
sexuality is stunted, their personalities corrupted by the
indoctrination process. Many non-possessed survivors commit suicide
in the months following the course, so ravaged are their feelings of
self-worth. The lot of those people possessed is little better.
Once signs of Bane infestation are apparent, Homogeneity
Incorporated approaches its ex-clients, attempting to sway them into
working with the organisation as volunteers and recruiters.
Door-to-door campaigns by Homogeneity Incorporated are usually
staffed by just such volunteers. Other fomori [those possessed
humans -W] may accompany the recruiters. If Garou [werewolves -W],
Kinfolk [non-changing relatives of werewolves -W] or other
"undesirables" are sniffed out during door-to-door campaigns, they
are targeted for immediate attention by other Pentex subsidiaries.
Jim Fowler [AKA KY Jelly :) -W], the president of Homogeneity
Incorporated, despite pprofessing that his homosexuality has been
cured, continues to live a secretive gay lifestyle, often seducing
the weaker-willed men who sign onto his organisatin's course as well
as hiring male prostitutes upon which he slakes his lust. His
self-hatred is often expressed in such encounters as sadistic and
masochistic behaviour. Not infrequently his games get out of hand,
leaving a trail of dead youths which may yet be Fowler's downfall.
Those course members who reject him are congratulated on passing a
non-existent test, while those who give in to his perverse charms
become even more guilt-wracked, and thus more open to possession.
Publically, Jim Fowler projects a wholesome facade, maintained in
part by his public image-conscious wife, a Pentex operative.
Fomori: Possession by Homogeneity Incorporated's Banes proceeds
along well-documented lines. After initial possession, the victim's
sex drive diminishes rapidly. This is often the cause of temporary
joy, as the Bane-host's unwanted homosexual desires begin to wane.
No heterosexual urges supplant homoerotic ones, however; instead,
the new fomor loses all desire for sexual activity. It is during
this gestation phase (which usually lasts between six and eight
months) that the fledgling fomor is sought out by Homogeneity
Incorporated, and sent out with recruitment parties. Once the
fomor's ability to sense unnatural beings has fully manifested
(usually after eight months, although in some individuals taking as
long as a year), a surge of hormones are released into the fomor's
bloodstream, triggering the final transformation and, as a side
effect, making the fomor aggressive and violent. [Note: "Black Dog"
is not here referring to homosexuals as "unnatural". Pentex's major
target is supernatural beings, such as werewolves, vampires,
faeries, etc, and it is these the fomor seeks out, while recruiting
other guilt-wracked homosexuals into the vicious cycle. -W]
The metamorphosis begins with the fomor's genitals atrophying
(withering up and dropping off in the case of men, or simply closing
up for women) over a two-week period. After three weeks, scab-like
crusts begin to grow over the fomor's eyes ond nose, slowly
absorbing the organs in pulpy new flesh. When it heals, the fomor
is left featureless save for its gaping mouth.
As the fomor's genitals atrophy, its bones, particularly in the
spine, arms and legs, distort and grow. This latter period of
transformation is especially painful. After a month, the
transformation is complete. The faceless fomor walks on hands and
feet, tracking its prey via alien senses, attacking with its teeth
and claws. Such fomori are known as Normalities, or Norms, and
properly leashed and muzzled, they are used by Pentex and
Homogeneity Incorporated to hunt down and kill Garou and their
Kinfolk.
Roleplaying Hints for Normalities: After the initial possession, you
feel positive and self-confident for the first time in your life.
The unwanted, abnormal sexuality which has plagued your existance
for as long as you can remember is no longer a problem. Soon you
discover that you have no sexuality at all. The grief this may
cause you is rapidly submerged in a welter of new feelings. You
feel stronger, healthier, and also ... angrier.
You begin to manifest an intense dislike for other homosexuals. You
have been cured - why do they continue to flaunt their perversity?
In the months before your body begins to warp and change, this
dislike expands to include anything you perceive as vaguely abnormal
- punk rock, body piercings, men who don't wear suits, women in
trousers. You become hypersensitive to normality's absense in
others. Your friends on the Homogeneity Recruitment Drive take
great interest in the freaks you detect with this new sensitivity of
yours. Especially those freaks who look normal on the outside.
As the final, terrible transformation into a Normalite warps your
body, you become gripped by a passionate hatred of anyone or
anything vaguely individual. These feelings of rage and anger swamp
your other emotions, even as your sense of self is swamped by the
* OLX 2.1 TD * Psychic convention cancelled due to unforeseen problems
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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PATH: 690/660 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:00:40
EID:7236 227b9800
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a5358
* On 23-03-97 at 20:20, KAREN DAVIS wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Ken Young: Poster child" in echo Holysmoke:
KD> KY> ANd since some have switched to being heterosexual, it has indeed
been
KD> KY> "repaired."
KD> KY> WHy can't you understand this? You made yourself who you are,
and
KD> KY> that includes your likes and dislikes, even sexually.
KD> Evidence, please? The guy who claimed to be fixing gays was jailed for
KD> having phone sex with them.
You mean Rev. Cook (?), the ex-gay therapist that the Colorado for
Family Values types allied with -- only to find out he'd been
phone-sexing the therapy victims? :) :) :)
KD> KY> Or have these gay youths just been duped into believing they are
gay,
KD> KY> by an overly accepting society.
KD> If one is deceived into something, it is a fairly easy task to open
KD> their eyes. Gay teenagers have the highest rate of suicide. Why?
Why, because their parents are bigots, and they're persecuted.
Here's some stats! I wonder why the Bush Administration hushed
up their report! :) :)
* Half of all lesbian and gay youth report that their parents reject them
due to their sexual orientation.
Reference:
Remafedi, G. "Male Homosexuality: The Adolescent's Perspective,"
Pediatrics, 79:326-330, 1987.
* Gay adolescents are two to three times more likely to attempt suicide
than male heterosexual adolescents. It is estimated that up to 30% of
reported youth suicides each year are committed by lesbian and gay young
people.
Reference:
Gibson P, LCSW. "Gay Male and Lesbian Youth Suicide," Report of the
Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services, 1989.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Physicist: An atom's way of knowing about atoms!
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:01:42
EID:f652 227b9820
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a5396
* On 24-03-97 at 13:24, DAN CEPPA wrote to KEN WIENS,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
DC> KW> are all created equal by our Creator. The DofI
DC> KW> has 100% as much legal weight as the Constitution.
DC> Wrong, Kenny. The Declaration of Independence is not
DC> and was not a law. The Constitution and it's subsequent
DC> Ammendments are.
DC> After all, if the Declaration was law, there would not have
DC> been a "Civil" War that freed the slaves. Those slaves
DC> would have been freed in 1776, not 1864.
Shhhh! He'll get all pouty soon for being TWICE wrong to a
foreigner who knows the US foundation documents better than he
does :) :)
Rod "...ho ho ho" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Blessed are the fundies, for they shall INHIBIT the Earth
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Randroids
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:19:44
EID:be13 227b9a60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a57d0
* On 22-03-97 at 19:32, FREDRIC RICE wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Randroids" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> FR> Rand created quite a cult which continues today -- and it's
FR> FR> utter lunacy. Humans simply aren't a reasonable species so
FR> FR> appeals to reason are ultimately destined to fail. Only as
FR> FR> humanity evolves will Objectivism have a chance.
FR> ch> This doesn't mean that Objectivist ideals aren't a good set to
FR> ch> strive for. It just means that as a social system, it won't work.
FR> ch> Atlantis is a great idea, but pulling it off in a nation made up
FR> ch> as the US is, it'd never work.
FR> Interestingly enough, I came to the same conclusion.
FR> Communism can be a useful political/economic ideological
FR> construct yet if it uses humans anywhere, it's a disaster.
FR> By the way... I'm thinking of creating an International
FR> Pink Conspiracy web page. }:-}
Oooh! :) We can issue IPC Kweer Kards! :)
Rod "...joy!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Only those who attempt the absurd achieve the impossible
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Running for office
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:20:46
EID:8bfa 227b9a80
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a580e
* On 22-03-97 at 19:35, FREDRIC RICE wrote to CHRISTOPHER HUGHES,
on the topic of "Running for office" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> ch> Actually, Rod and I have considered trying to form our own political
FR> ch> party. *grin* We need candidates for the year 2000; neither of us
are
FR> ch> old enough to run.
FR> By the time your chance comes along, we older guys will
FR> have destroyed things so profoundly that the Democratic
FR> process, tailored under the Constitutional Republic, will
FR> be a thing of the past.
FR> I've been thinking seriously about getting onto the local
FR> cable television shows and hosting an atheist show. That
FR> would be a prelude toward running for public office in the
FR> city.
Sounds great! :) :) When do you need volunteers? :) I'm sure
other echo participants would be interested.
Rod "...it'd be fun!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Today's topic: Name alternatives to eternal nothingness
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:21:48
EID:ab9b 227b9aa0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a584c
* On 24-03-97 at 13:09, DAN CEPPA wrote to KEN YOUNG,
on the topic of "Driving Mr. Daisy" in echo Holysmoke:
DC> KY> sexual preference. It is making a point of informing the public
of
DC> KY> your preference to encourage rights, rights that we all already
have,
DC> DW> Really? Homosexuals have the right to marry the partner
DC> DW> of their choice where you live? Amazing.
DC> KY> Sure, they do. They just can't have state sanctioned marriages.
DC> IOW, you stupid shit, they don't have the same rights as hets.
In other words, same-gender marriages are an EQUAL rights issue.
Heterosexuals currently have *special* rights :) :)
DC> Now, when will you be marching for gays to have the same rights
DC> that you take for granted?
When hell freezes over, maybe? :)
Rod "...after all, we have to keep the concepts biblical for his
clearly simplistic mind in that he can't comprehend an equal
rights case" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Arachnohomophobia: Fear of gay spiders
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Driving Over Mr. Daisy
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:27:50
EID:9eb6 227b9b60
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a59b6
* On 22-03-97 at 21:43, FREDRIC RICE wrote to MARY SMITH,
on the topic of "DRIVING OVER MR. DAISY" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> KY>> Check out the gay marches or rallies that have been shown on
FR> KY>> th and you will get an idea what I mean. You must admit,
FR> KY>> some do confrontational about it.
FR> MS> Shouldn't this be in GAYLINK?
FR> No. We cover the Christian death cult's oppression of
FR> innocent people here. Their ideological hatred of
FR> homosexuals fits in well here.
Praise Jesus for hateful intolerance of gay people -- so that
heterosexuals may hate Christians too! :) :)
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift ;)
* OLX 2.1 TD * At least I never misplaced the Deltivid asteroid belt - Q
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: David Rice
|Sub: audios tonto
|Date: 27 Mar 97 19:54:52
EID:fce6 227b9ec0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a600c
* On 25-03-97 at 17:23, DAVID RICE wrote to ALL,
on the topic of "audios tonto" in echo Holysmoke:
DR> This is probably my last message to HOLYSMOKE for a few years,
DR> though I might get Blue Wave (blew away-ed) working this evening,
DR> and read my four goddamned-can't-read-the-goddamned-packets
DR> goddamnedit files awaiting me. Maybe if I pray REEEEEAL HARD
DR> Norton can ressurect them. Amen. Goddamned it.
May the winds be favourable to you in your journeys, David!
Good luck in your travels. Hope to see you back here soon!
Rod "...and take care, and make sure that you have an EPIRB! We
can't lose an asset like you to 'Acts of God!' :) :)" Swift :)
** EPIRB == Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon, from
memory. Basically it is the maritime emergency satellite
positioning beacon system.
* OLX 2.1 TD * If Jesus is Jewish, why does he have a Spanish name?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: In the news
|Date: 27 Mar 97 20:05:54
EID:8952 227ba0a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a62a2
* On 22-03-97 at 20:36, FREDRIC RICE wrote to DAVID RICE,
on the topic of "In the news" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> The only problem is: Christanic terrorism is a justifiable
FR> reason to suspend everyone's civil rights.
I don't think we need to destroy due process to destroy Christian
domestic terrorism. I think the principles of a quick passage of
justice among a jury of his or her peers is just as effective,
especially if the terrorism is described in precise, unwavering
detail in the courtroom so that the jury will have no problem
frying the fucks to death and even wanting to press the
goatdamned button!!! :) :)
Then the appeals process should be as expedient as possible.
Rod "...because that's what those sick fucks deserve, a good ol'
zap. I hear if it gets done in Florida, we can have the bonus of
igniting the death rower!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * That tagline is *true* ---> <--- That tagline is *false*
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Baptists Hate MickeyMous
|Date: 27 Mar 97 20:07:56
EID:44ed 227ba0e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333a631c
* On 22-03-97 at 20:53, FREDRIC RICE wrote to DAVID RICE,
on the topic of "Baptists Hate MickeyMouse" in echo Holysmoke:
FR> > I'm not going to Disney World
FR> > ROB MORSE
FR> > EXAMINER COLUMNIST
FR> All the more reason for me to take my family.
The American Family Association (Don Wildmon's cult) is trying to
boycott Disney/ABC-TV due to the coming out episode of Ellen, and
all advertisers on the network.
Apparently, you just can't portray lesbians as responsible US
citizens on television and hence debunk their right-wing
propagandising that gays are "sick" and expect to get away with
it.
Rod "...Time to write to Disney/ABC!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Does killing time damage eternity?
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Brad Kennard
|Sub: question for the ALL
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:39
EID:b7af 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3e2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
BK>gimme some scientific investigations
OK, bend over.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Basic airline flying: keep the pointy end forward.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
* Origin: CompuMate - Tulsa, OK (918)663-3454 (1:170/551)
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:39
EID:9b28 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3e3
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KY>Yes, He is God, so how could he be tortured, some might ask. Well, He
came
KY>here as a human being, so the sacrifice was very real indeed.
Bullshit. Your cult claims he came back to life.
KY> KD> consequence. Or I can forgive them without consequence, perhaps
asking
KY> KD> for an apology. I don't die or kill my "son" in order to forgive
them.
KY>Someone had to die for the peoples' sins.
What kind of moronic idiot would posit such a ridiculous thing?
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Automated system. Nothing can gowronggowronggowrong*%$#@
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Ark stuff
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:39
EID:3cea 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3e4
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
Bother and damnation. I meant to save all those posts on the ark
but got busy and zapped the packet. It that all in a filesomewhere
I could get it...on the net, maybe?
Tanks.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ None of you exist; my sysop types all this in.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: clones
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:40
EID:e479 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3e7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JH> KS> sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
JH> KS> magic."
JH> No... what you paraphrased above is CLARKE's Third Law.
I am desiccated with mortification.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Ambivalence ... or whatever.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:40
EID:c283 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3e8
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> quit looking at your dick!
JS> Why not? It is a work of art.
Who is Art?
JS>JS> KS> so abysmally fucking stupid as you, but I guess I could even
be wrong
JS>JS> KS> about *that*, as difficult as it is to imagine.
JS>JS> Just love those pejoratives, don't you Karl. Just can't have a decent
JS>JS> convo any more.
JS> KS> I prefer to think of them as expletives.
JS> No, they are degrading adjectives, actually. Degrading to your own
JS> intellect.
I see precisely two adjectives in my sentence above. Neither are
pejorative.
JS>... In my Father's house are many mansions. - John 14:2
Especially if you're Richard Roberts.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Dyslexic atheists don't believe in Dog.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
---
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:40
EID:491b 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3e9
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS>JS> With all these _mahvelous_ attributes, how come you ain't rich or
at
JS>JS> least selfemployed?
JS> KS> I am both, idiot. Semi-retired, actually. I live on a beautiful
JS> KS> lake and enjoy life immensely.
JS>Then why do you work? Why does this 'work' regularly take you to Grand
JS>Rapids? Who are some of your local clients?
I work sometimes because I enjoy it, it brings in additional monies,
and people find my expertise useful and valuable. My only regular
client in GR is Optical Supply on Plainfield. I don't go there
'regularly'; once or twice a year, tops.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ I put spot remover on my dog, and now I can't find him...
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:40
EID:d934 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3ea
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> JS>What has this to do with experiencing the presence of God with
JS> KS> 72,000 JS>other believers?
JS> KS> Nothing, unless they plan to pray.
JS>I see. And what of Christ's examples in prayer? In John 17, gives a most
JS>wonderful prayer...in the company of at least 12.
So he didn't practice what he preached. Bully for him.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ A little greed can get you lots of stuff
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:40
EID:a2f4 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3eb
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> can't JS>hold a conversation in English without using abusive four
JS> KS> letter words.
JS> KS> I disagree. I have never used 'gook'.
JS>Nothing abusive about 'gook'.
Not if you aren't one, I guess.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ A single fact can spoil a good argument.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:40
EID:7a14 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3ed
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> Is that why you married your sister?
JS>If you have any jevidence that the Lovely Wilbur [tm] is my sister, trot
JS>it out here and I'll take a look at it.
Oh, I have lots of evidence. But you wouldn't accept it.
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ Redundancy: An air bag in a politician's car.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: the promise keepers 1/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:40
EID:a1cc 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3ee
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
JS> KS> honorable JS>brother McCartney, dwelling-wise.
JS> KS> Uh huh. It would be interesting to excavate the 30 room palace
JS> KS> Jesus lived in.
JS>He had no home of his own.
Well, one wouldn't want be like *him*, then, would he?
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ 665.999999999999 The Pentium Antichrist.
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: You forgot to answer
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:17:41
EID:42e3 22816220
PID: OLMS 2.53 [Evaluation] 348 days
MSGID: 1:170/551.0 163be3f0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8609
KD>I had heard about Hitler having Jewish blood, as well. Don't know if
it
KD>is true, or not.
I have heard it too, but never saw any authentication. However, lacking
accurate geneaologies more than a few generations, I think it's fairly
certain that most every human on the planet has *some*...
-!-
þ OLX 2.2 þ So many Christians, so little time...
-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:53
EID:1528 228161c0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 20705c7a
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 33401198
On (31 Mar 97) Don Martin babbled to Marilyn Burge...
DM> You mean I can't use the really neat stuff about your
DM> disembowelling your abuser and strewing the intestines all
DM> over Hoquiam? Bother.
DM> Don't sweat any typos--my removing my _own_
DM> embarassments in a sense obligates me to clean up
DM> everyone's. I don't quite know what to do with the collected
DM> works of kindly ol' Doc Globberg, though: clean _his_ up,
DM> and you lose the joke of some idiot fundy "correcting" him.
DM> But his sense is worth more than cheap jokes (however much
DM> temptation looms).
I think in the interest of authenticity you MUSt leave
Blogreb's typos in. It will be worth a thousand words to
explanation regarding whether or not there is any correlation
between the ability to type and spell and genuine intelligence.
DM> ... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
DM> (don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
DM> --- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
DM> * Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
... Why do Christians worship a god that violated a virgin's civil rights?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Debunked Again! 1/
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:30:18
EID:98b5 227f6bc0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333fbc6a
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33377e50
KY> And since some have switched to being heterosexual, it has
KY> indeed been "repaired."
RS> Evidence?
Find a former gay, and you will have your evidence. There are a lot of
them out there.
RS> The leaders of your ex-gay ministeries admit they haven't changed
RS> feelings, merely behaviour, and mostly to celibacy, not
RS> heterosexual behaviour.
Odd.. Every former homosexual I ever heard from or about, has said that
they are no longer gay, that they no longer have any homosexual desire.
RS> And certainly never to heterosexual orientation.
Well then, I suggest you explain this to former homosexuals. They really
have a right to know.
KY> You made yourself who you are,
RS> Evidence?
You deny this?
RS> ...it seems on further questioning on these individuals, they
RS> do express that their sexual orientation has always been innate
RS> (as they confuse the initial question to be "sexual activity"
RS> not "orientation").
RS> I do wish you'd read what I write. On *closer clinical
RS> examination and questioning they say they CHOOSE SEXUAL ACTIVITY
RS> and NOT their ORIENTATION*.
I feel the same way. I get tired of having to explain that what people
say I said, wasn't what I said.
As far as what you just wrote, their sexual orientation has always been
inate, that they know of. As I have said, one does not always realize why
they do things or why they make the choices they do.
Whenever I question gays on sexual preference, I usually can eventually
get to a reason for them being gay.
KY> Perhaps it was due to some trauma
RS> Yet *ANOTHER* theory everyone. Now gays are gay because of
RS> traumas!
RS> THEORY 1: Gays actively choose.
RS> THEORY 2: Gays consciously choose.
RS> THEORY 3: Gays subconsciously choose.
RS> THEORY 4: Trauma causes gays to choose.
RS> Evidence, Ken?
Try all of the above is correct, including what I say about many gays being
that way because of insecurities. Some conasciously choose, some subconsciously
choose. And almost all gays appear to have turned to it because of trauma,
insecurities, or some event that triggered this in their life.
KY> or maybe it was just basic insecurities.
RS> And yet *ANOTHER* theory that is completely unevidenced.
RS> THEORY 5: Gays are insecure and hence they choose to be gay.
RS> Evidence?
Just the stories I have heard from homosexuals, as to how and when they
first discovered that they were gay.
KY> Who teaches them that God hates gays?
RS> Why, groups like Exodus International, Ken. Why aren't you out
RS> condemning them for killing young gay youths?
I would, if I knew of this happening.
RS> How about these words from one of these murderous cults of your God?
RS> "I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave
RS> Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In
RS> a physical death you could still have a spiritual
RS> resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are
RS> yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is
RS> no recovery"
RS> -- The Final Indoctrination from John Smid, Director,
RS> Love In Action (LIA), San Rafael's "ex-gay" clan.
I actually feel sorry for anyone that would say such a thing. WHile I do
think it is a strong possibility that God said that one will be spiritually
dead if they commit homosexual ACTS, God can do anything, and that includes
reviving them spiritually, if that is what they truly want.
What that appears to be saying to me is that they almost want people to
go to Hell. If there are a lot of groups saying this garbage, I can understand
having strong feelings against those that find homosexuality immoral and
disgusting, but not everyone would go to that extreme.
KY> God is hardly about hating people.
KY> It is only their sinfulness that He hates.
RS> No. They are told God hates *THEM*. What do you have to say to
RS> that? Here's a story of someone who was *saved* from the torture
RS> mills and suicide internment camps run by ex-gay ministries.
They may have been told that God hates them, but that was by man, which
is capable of human error, and not God Himself.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Debunked Again! 2/
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:49:20
EID:68b5 227f6e20
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333fc0e0
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33377e52
KY> I listen perfectly well, but I am not going to believe something
KY> unless I see something pointing to it being true. I cannot accept
KY> psychology as evidence.
RS> What about the 40% suicide rate of participants in Exodus
RS> International's "programs"? Is that evidence enough of the blood
RS> on your hands?
RS> I hope you burn in the hell your religion creates for you, for your
RS> crimes against humanity, Ken. You are a sick bastard. The blood
RS> is on YOUR hands.
RS> You subscribe to the myth of "curing gays". You are just as
RS> culpable as your masters and your brothers in Christ that have
RS> caused more deaths among gay youths than HIV.
RS> And just so the facts get through your head:
RS> * According to a 1986 survey conducted in Seattle, Washington, 40% of
RS> homeless youth identifies as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. Half of all
RS> lesbian and gay youth report that their parents reject them due to
RS> their sexual orientation.
Now, why do you suppose so many of the homeless and of the suicidal are
gay or bisexual? Could it be out of desperation? Often when people get
really low in their life, they turn to what they deep down know is wrong,
or at the very least, will be rejected by society.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Freedom of choice
|Date: 31 Mar 97 13:54:24
EID:f1e4 227f6ec0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333fc210
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33377fbe
KY> RS> should marry innocent heterosexuals and lie to them, and
KY> RS> eventually cause yet *more* horrendous damage to US families when
KY> RS> the eventual break up occurs.
KY> No, because that is forcing it.
RS> So you admit that "cured gays" are still not heterosexual? I
RS> thought you admitted that they are *COMPLETELY* cured, including
RS> their UNDERLYING ATTRACTIONS AND DESIRES -- something that
RS> science says CANNOT BE CHANGED.
No, I admit that a gay marrying a heterosexual is not going to cure him.
But gays can be cured. A marriage just isn't going to do it, however.
RS> So, when it comes to a "cured gay" marrying your daughter, you
RS> still fear them still holding gay feelings. Even YOU know that
RS> they aren't cured.
They can be cured, but my daughter could not do it for them. It is up to
them.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:35:52
EID:3d75 227f8c60
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333ff5f8
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3337856e
RS> as gay bashing. Do you
KY> KY> really think it is gay bashing for one to say
KY> KY> that homosexuality is
KY> KY> immoral?
KY> RH>
KY> RH> Well, I guess it all depends on what you view
KY> RH> as discrimination. Do
KY> RH> you really think it is discrimination for one
RS> to say that blacks are
KY> RH> inferior?
KY> Ah, but I never said that gays are inferior.
RS> No. You just believe they should have INFERIOR CITIZENSHIP and
RS> RIGHTS -- as opposed to, say, EQUALITY.
Nope.. I said that is for the people to decide.
And BTW, that would include gays.
KY> Plus, what does the color of one's skin have to do
KY> with their morality?
RS> What does one's sexual orientation have to do with their
RS> morality, either?
Must you really ask? ANy sexual orientation except for heterosexuality
is immoral. WHy? One reason is because those homosexual or bisexual feelings
lead to the actions that go along with them. ANd if those feelings are
never acted on, then that would mean the person is suppressing is feelings,
which also wouldn't be good.
RS> You've yet to provide one scrap of evidence to show how gays
RS> "hurt" families. I've shown heaps that show how families hurt gays.
Well, I have to see that one either. But as far as gays hurting families,
it is more gay rights activists, than gays themselves. One good example
would be the promotion of homosexuality in the American public schools.
KY> RH> But seriously, NAMBLA hopes so. However, it seems to me to be a
KY> Right, and this is really my biggest reason for being against
KY> acceptance of homosexuality.
RS> If it wasn't for the opposition within the gay community to
RS> NAMBLA, you would have a lot of problems. NAMBLA is attempting
RS> very hard to be seen as part of the mainstream. They attempt to
RS> do this by attaching their pedophilia agenda to the equal rights
RS> claims of gay people.
NAMBLA part of the mainstream?!? You must be kidding.. :) They definitely
do have problems, if they believe that be achieved any time soon.
But homosexuals aren't considered part of the mainstream, are they? So,
how can they be used to make NAMBLA appear as such?
But yes, I will agree that NAMBLA does use the gays quite a bit. Most wouldn't
have anything to do with NAMBLA's agenda. But that isn't to say that homosexuality
couldn't be used to get what they want.
RS> NAMBLA has consistently been banned by both organisers and court
RS> order from marching in gay and lesbian demonstrations.
If this is true, that is great, and does help me have a little respect for
the gay rights activists.
KY> RH> The key phrase is "consenting adults".
KY> RH> You want to bathe in piss? Fine, if your partner agrees.
KY> RH> You want to rape anyone? NOT fine (no consent).
KY> RH> You want to sodomise children? NOT fine (not adult).
KY> When you say the key phrase is "consenting adults," does
KY> that mean teenagers shouldn't be able to do the same things?
RS> Yes. Teenagers are unable to give consent to any sexual activity
RS> whatsoever under the law until they reach the age of consent.
Trouble is, not everyone is mature at the same age. It isn't as if we turn
18, and "poof," instant maturity. I would say it would greatly depend on
the individual.
But then, even many things consentual are illegal for adults.
KY> RH> See? No god-myth needed.
KY> No god needed, you say? Well then, where do you get your
KY> beliefs on what is right or wrong?
RS> Philosophy dear boy... Philosophy.
RS> Rod "...one doesn't need religion to know justice" Swift :)
Ah, but whose philosophy does this sense of justice come from?
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel boyco
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:49:44
EID:374b 227f8e20
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333ff938
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 33378e3a
KY> > Gays can become Christians, but not while they are gay.
KY> CH> So, can someone who is homosexual, but has
KY> CH> never had sex with anyone,
KY> CH> be Christian?
KY> Not if they are going to remain a homosexual.
RS> Strange. There's nothing in the bible about homosexuality, only
RS> same-sex genital sexual acts.
Ah, but why would someone have those homosexual feelings and not ever act
on them? SHould feelings be suppressed like that?
RS> Rod "...why would they not be Christian?" Swift :)
Because the feelings that go with both would contradict with each other
too much.
It would be like being a Catholic nymphomaniac. :)
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:52:20
EID:f1e4 227f8e80
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333ff9d4
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3337b3c8
KY> KS> But that's changing, fortunately.
KY> That changed a long time ago, and the left is getting more
KY> and more control over America all the time.
RS> Oh, and we're *SOOOO* scaaaaaaared! :)
Why should you be? You're not even in America, are you?
But then, things are changing that way all over the globe.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:53:44
EID:f1e4 227f8ea0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333ffa28
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3337b4ba
KY> Oh? Then there would be organized prayer in school.
RS> No, they have more important things to do, like removing hell
RS> from the word hello!
RS> ___--------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> KINGSVILLE, Texas (Reuter) - Heaven-o, how are you?
I had already talked about this, when the article was originally posted.
And for your information, the guy according to himself, isn't even a Christian
that got this done.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Freedom Of Choice
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:55:26
EID:f1e4 227f8ee0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 333ffa8e
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3337b4f8
KY> KY> sex would be very unnatural, yes.
KY> MG> So, would you like to see laws passed that prohibit
KY> MG> anal sex between heteros?
KY> Never said I was even for laws against anal sex between homosexuals.
KY> I find it sick and immoral, but it should be legal.
RS> So you are going to join gay people in the next demonstration in
RS> your nearby states about there being sodomy laws, and how they
RS> should be removed?
I wouldn't, but mainly because there are a lot more important issues as
far as I am concerned. I am in the process of getting to be an actual activist
of sorts, but homosexuality would not be an issue, one way or another, that
I plan on focusing on.
BTW, don't think only gay people are into that. There are a lot of heterosexual
people that fight strongly for "gay rights."
RS> Maybe you might meet some gay people??? Have a chance to ask if
RS> they chose????
RS> Rod "...oh, damn, I bet you'll say no now :(" Swift :)
Hehe.. Now, how did you know? :)
Well, I have asked gays about that, but whether they say they chose or
not says nothing. What matters is their answer when asked about when they
first realized they were gay.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 31 Mar 97 18:25:54
EID:f1e4 227f9320
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334001b2
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3337b628
KY> If they don't choose that way, then that tells me they are
KY> trapped in that sexual preference.
RS> Trapped? No. We were granted it by the grace of your God!
RS> Praise your God for homosexuality, Ken! :) That's what you
RS> fear!
But you obviously do not believe in the Christian God. So therefore, do
you see yourself as being trapped in that sexual preference?
KY> I have no idea why they have anal sex, not do any of the
KY> heterosexuals I know.
RS> It's so nice that you like to pry into the private sexual
RS> practices of your heterosexual friends.
People can't discuss such matters?
KY> The best answer I have been able to
KY> get is that some have masochistic tendencies.
RS> Sadomasochism does not equal anal sex, dear boy.
I am not the one that came up with it, just what others have said.
KY> I do not know what all I will do, but I can safely say that
KY> anal sex won't be one of them.
RS> Suuuuuure.
RS> Rod "...we'll just forget about that experience of yours you had
RS> as a child with your local priest, who obviously fucked your life
RS> up completely that you must be so hateful and resentful of
RS> consenting adults" Swift :)
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not Catholic.
I am not hateful of consenting adults. What I hate is what some give consent
to do.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 31 Mar 97 18:30:48
EID:cfa0 227f93c0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334002d8
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3337bd76
RS> provided any. It is
KY> KS> obvious you are a lying fuck.
KY> No, rather, I have some decency, and it isn't exactly right
KY> to talk about that, using names, on a net for everyone to see.
RS> Ok, so be honest enough to explain why you have ignored my
RS> testimony, and Christopher's testimony, as "us not knowing we
RS> actually chose".
Ah, but your testimony that I have seen as of this post, has not been complete.
When did you first realize you were gay?
RS> Did you make this claim to every other gay person you've met?
RS> Have you dismissed their personal testimony for your own bias?
RS> Why are you a joke to all rational people?
FInd me some rational people, so they can decide that.
RS> Either be honest and admit you are dispensing with the testimony
RS> of REAL gay people who KNOW they never made any active choice
RS> whatsoever and ADMIT your bias -- or remain a proven liar.
Most gays do think they they were born gay, but they are just wrong, is
all.
Now, give me the testimony of gays saying how they discovered their homosexuality,
and I would accept that.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 31 Mar 97 18:35:02
EID:cfa0 227f9460
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334003d6
REPLY: 3:690/660.0 3337d3d8
KY> KY>they chose that way. Seem
KY> KY>like I run into more all the time that think this way
KY> KS> I asked you before for some names. You never
RS> provided any. It is
KY> KS> obvious you are a lying fuck.
KY> No, rather, I have some decency, and it isn't exactly right
KY> to talk about that, using names, on a net for everyone to
KY> see.
RS> Doesn't change the fact you are a LYING FUCK. You have
RS> CONSISTENTLY lied about gay people, their lives, their loves,
RS> their relationships, and their morality.
Evidence on any of that?
RS> You are a LYING FUCK, Ken.
Tsk. tsk.. Can't think of anything else to say, so you must repeat yourself?
:)
RS> I was prepared to offer you the chance to provide evidence, and
RS> remain within the rules of debate on this issue, but it is clear
RS> you fail to provide any evidence.
RS> Since you will not, it means I can play hard and fast.
In other words you cannot debate this logically and intelligently?
RS> You are a consistent, unrepentant, lying fuck.
Keep saying that. Maybe you're believe it, if you say it enough.
RS> I will continue to repeat this charge until you decide to provide
RS> some evidence for what you claim, or retract the whole lot of it
RS> and admit that you have no evidence whatsoever and that you
RS> indeed did lie.
We both know you wouldn't accept evidence on this. Come on, it is what
you are. You don't want to be proved wrong on it.
Yeah, like if I did retract anything, your tone would ever change. Nice
try, though.
I never lie, I may be wrong on some things, but never lie. And if I ever
do find that I am wrong, I will be sure to admit it. Now, would you do
the same if it was ever proven that you were the one that was wrong?
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 31 Mar 97 18:43:34
EID:b400 227f9560
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334005d6
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 333c6e5e
KY> except since the girl wasn't the one that actually killed the unborn
KY> child, it probably should be the so called doctors that should be
KY> executed.
DC> You and your kind have already started doing that, and quite
DC> illegally, too.
Hey, if the law won't carry out the death penalty, I guess they figure someone
has to!
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 31 Mar 97 18:47:46
EID:2b76 227f95e0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334006d2
CH>> be Christian?
> Not if they are going to remain a homosexual.
CH> But you've said in the past that it was the repeated practice of having
CH> sex that caused the actual condemnation. Or was that Ken Wiens? You
all
CH> look the same to me.
We all look the same? Isn't that a rather bigoted, stereotypical attitude?
I didn't say the repeated practice of sex, but I have said that the repeated
practice of sin itself would prevent one from being a Christian.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 00:03:22
EID:ef56 22810060
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334050ca
BB>> Why is it unnatural, Ken?
> Well, according to those that I know that have
> tried it, it is quite
> painful. Sex should be of pleasure, not pain.
CH> Then they weren't doing it right. The pleasure's indecent. Especially
when
CH> you get your prostate massaged in the process.
Well, some do not see anything wrong with it, but view someone liking anal
sex as a sign they are into sado masochism. Keep in mind, I can only go
by what I have heard.
Well, I'll just have to take your word for it. I also, however would find
putting that in the same place you crap, kind of disgusting.
> And come on.. Put that WHERE?!? I don't think so.. :)
CH> You just don't have an adventurous spirit, then. :)
I guess not. But I can live with that.
But look at it this way.. You have no desire to have sex with a woman.
The mere idea repulses you, right? Well, pretty much how I personally feel
about anal sex.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 00:08:38
EID:ef56 22810100
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33405206
LB>> Translation: One gets you hot, the other doesn't.
> No, it means one I can find moral reasons to be against it, and the
> other I can't.
CH> Oh? And how is it you can condemn one and not the other? Neither one
leads
CH> to pregnancy. If sex is about procreation with one's mate, then I would
CH> think that you'd condemn any sex act that didn't lead
CH> to a baby. Or are you
CH> trying to impose some sort of double standard.
The reason was at the time, I could find no moral reason to say that oral
sex was wrong as an absolute.
And I never said that sex is JUST for procreation. It is just the main
purpose.
Of course, another problem with oral sex, which I hadn't really thought
about, is there is no form of protection from AIDS or anything.
> I do personally think the idea of oral sex is
CH> disgusting, but not sure
> if I would say actually immoral.
CH> I can only assume you've never received fellatio or performed cunnilingus,
CH> then.
Nope. And it is doubtful if I ever will.
LB>> that CAN be done, and IS done (i.e. IS a part of
LB>> 'nature') be unnatural?
> If it was not meant to be, it is unnatural.
CH> Meant to be? By whom? And since the implicit answer to
CH> that question in your
CH> case is a being whose (non)existence I find irrelevant anyway, what
makes
CH> you think I care about your conclusions based upon it?
Well, if you didn't care, I have no idea why you are replying to my posts.
But, as to why isn;t it meant to be, what would the main purpose of other
forms of sex be?
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 01 Apr 97 00:15:44
EID:0439 228101e0
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334053b0
REPLY: 1:123/67 333d31c2
KY> Because they feel trapped in a lifestyle that they think they don't
KY> have a choice about. They have been told there is no choice, so they
KY> believe that.
SS> I repeat, on what do you base your conclusion that sexual preference
is
SS> a choice?
One of the things I base that on, is that many change their minds, later
in life.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: ...
|Date: 01 Apr 97 00:17:04
EID:1e19 22810220
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33405400
CH>> attempt at geting out of a lot of trouble, which failed. They had
CH>> an affair, he knocked her up, and then they claimed that an angel
CH>> did it to keep him out of trouble.
> Think about it. WOuld that really make sense?
> Very few would say such
> a thing, as it wouldn't be believed by many.
CH> And you think it makes less sense that this mysterious mythical being
CH> came out of nowhere and magically impregnated this woman? Just what
have
CH> you been smoking?
That was sort of my point. To most, it would sound so ridiculous if someone
said it happened to them, that the only people that possibly would because
others would be afraid of ridicule, would be someone that it did happen
to.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:25:08
EID:8cc0 22810b20
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334063f4
> No, because while the power of the mind may be a
> great thing, God has
> set limits to what extent it can be used.
> Besides, the mind can't do
> everything. Unlike God.
CH> Can God create an item that he can not destroy?
Sort of like the old "can God make a rock He can't lift" scenario? :)
Sure.. If there was a purpose to it, God could do it. But anything God
does do has a reason for it, so not likely that He will be doing that.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:28:34
EID:b631 22810b80
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334064c2
RS>> they've been listening to the lies of the religious right.
> Pretty much the same way the left has convinced them that if they have
> "safe sex," they are also immune from it?
CH> At any point have you ever heard someone say that safe sex is 100% proof
CH> positive against HIV? No more so than they say safe sex is 100% proof
CH> positive against pregnancy. I've never heard an advocate ever claim
that
Let's look at the word, shall we? "SAFE sex" Does this not seem to imply
that it may be, oh, I don't know, maybe SAFE? The name itself misrepresents
itself, giving young people the idea that if they have "safe sex," they
will be safe, which of course isn't necessarily true.
CH> anything other than abstinence is 100% proof against either. But given
CH> that individuals are going to have sex, which is safer, protected or
CH> unprotected sex? Once abstinence is gone, which is better?
Oh, the old "they are going to do it anyway, so they might as well be safe
routine." Many people do not have sex until they find a partner they are
sure they will be with the rest of their lives, so I strongly disagree with
the notion that people will definitely have sex.
Of course, birth control is safer, if one is going to have sex. But, by
promoting birth control, and talking so much about this mythical safe sex,
it gives people a false sense of security, and allows them to be deceived
into thinking they will be completely safe with protection.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:35:28
EID:2b76 22810c60
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 33406660
RS>> Rod "...and remember to not enjoy sex next time you have it, else
RS>> you'll be being a hypocrite to your single-functioned purpose of
RS>> sex" Swift :)
> As I said, there is more than one purpose to sex, but there is one,
> more important than any other.
CH> More important. Ok, now you're including a value call. More important
CH> to whom? Based on what criteria? In what value system?
Not based on a value system, but based on survival. Mankind could get by
without another purpose for sex, but would have found it sort of tough to
get by without procreation.
> Nope.. Enjoyment is one of the purposes, though much less of a
> purpose than something like procreation.
CH> Based on what? According to what value system is
CH> procreation more important
CH> than pleasure? I won't even outright say (yet) that you're wrong; I
just
CH> want to know based on what system of ethics you've made
CH> this determination.
As I just said, because of survival. Pleasure is a great thing, but first
we must be around to enjoy it.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:42:04
EID:23c7 22810d40
MSGID: 1:270/420.0 334067ec
> Well, do you deny that some sort of living being
> dies? If not, then
> what type of life form is it? Generally, when two people create a
> life together, it is a human being.
CH> A cancerous growth when you cut it out of someone, also. It may be living,
CH> but it isn't human. Until such time as it can survive independently
of
CH> the host mother, it's a foetus.
And why would that be?
And I said:
> Generally, when two people create a life together, it is a human being.
WHat could the union of two people possibly produce that is alive, if not
another human being?
> If I had such feelings, I'd likely be decieved as well in thinking
> that they were natural feelings.
CH> Deceived? Deceived by whom? To what end?
I suppose deceived by the lies society has been fooled by. And ultimately
those deceptions sadly came from the master deceiver himself.
> Why are they unnatural? Well, what purpose do they serve?
CH> What purpose do your heterosexual feelings serve?
They mean I have the potential to find heterosexual love, and eventually
procreate.
CH> By the way, what do you mean when you say "unnatural"?
CH> Just what definition
CH> of that word are you using? Obviously it carries some
CH> meaning with you, but
CH> I'd like to know what.
I think I said it before, but unnatural would be whatever was not meant
to be, or whatever is not part of our TRUE nature.
CH> Hey, Fredric! Here's one for your Quote File:
CH> "But part of our rights, is the right to take away the
CH> rights of others, if
CH> it does not go against the Constitution, and if enough want it." Ken
Young
CH> I'm not even going to dignify that piece of crap with a reply.
America is supposed to be for and by the people. That, how people want
things to be, should be, even if some may not like it. AMerica is all about
freedom, but that includes the freedom to restrict others, provided it is
what the public wants, and not the govt.
RS>> If the government will not treat us equally before the law in
RS>> rights, we will not abide equally under the law in
RS>> responsibilities to the government that betrays us.
> You seriously agree with this?
CH> One of your own, Martin Luther King, Jr., was one of
CH> the loudest proponents
CH> of civil disobedience, was he not? Didn't he say, quite
CH> loudly, that people
CH> had a moral obligation NOT to follow an unjust law?
MLK was not one of my own. He was a Communist.
Anyway, depends on to what extreme you are talking as far as civil disobedience
goes. I know I will not obey a law I disagree with. But, if one is talking
about going to violent extremes to show disobedience to the law, that is
where I draw the line.
RS>> beatings from thugs, as opposed to institutionalised
RS>> concentration camp violence by authorities.
> Oh, come on.. How would they even know you are
CH> gay? Are you saying
> one can tell if a person is gay by looking at them?
CH> Well, the vast majority of people who commit such bashings seem to think
CH> so, and that's part of the big myth that gets
CH> propogated about homosexuals.
Well, it could be that gay rights activists help that concept along, by
insisting that there are actual born differences between heterosexuals and
homosexuals. If there is such a difference, doesn't logic say one could
tell them apart?
Now, I actually can usually tell when someone is gay. Not bisexuals, but
homosexuals. Though, I am sure I wouldn't have been able to before they
came to the brilliant realization that they were gay.
KY>> A non-issue? It be great if that was what most gays
KY>> wanted, as that is also what I want.
RS>> Then grant us our civil rights.
> Unfortunately, I have no such ability.
CH> Then get out there and start pushing for them, and stop sitting around
CH> saying that the majority has the rights to tyranise the minority if
it
CH> so desires.
I know it is difficult to understand, but I can be for one thing, but still
be for the legal right for the opposite way. The law and what is right
can be two different things.
School prayer is the other example we have been discussing. In this day
and age, I do not think it would be a good idea, but I still recognize the
legal right for it to be allowed.
> No laws are necessary. In fact, such laws would likely make people
> even more resentful of gays.
CH> I don't care about resentment. I care about equality. I don't ask that
CH> people like what I do. I ask that people give me the freedom to do it.
Ah, but can't resentment turn some people more violent against what they
are so resentful of?
> Personally, I think that is why there is so much
> gay bashing today.
> There has been so much talk about gay rights, that many just became
> resentful of gays trying to take what they see as special rights.
CH> So you admit that gays are asking for equal rights here? You said, "There
CH> has been so much talk about gay rights, that many just became resentful
CH> of gays trying to take WHAT THEY SEE as special rights." Not, "special
CH> rights," but "WHAT THEY SEE as special rights."
I admit that is what gays say they are for. What I think the more outspoken
ones are really for, however, is something entirely different.
CH> This is as close to an admission as I think we're going to get, but
I'll
CH> take it nonetheless. Now that you've admitted that all we seek are equal
CH> rights, how can you sit and say "the majority has the right to take
away
CH> the rights of a minority" and not be a hypocrite if you believe in the
CH> Constitution? Doesn't the concept of that document indicate that EVERYONE
CH> should have equal rights (even though it doesn't guarantee it)?
Because I do not think that all gays are for that. I have seen enough to
think that you and a few others are for equal rights, more than likely.
But, whether you believe it or not, several gays do want more rights than
others.
The Constitution actually gives no one rights. People have that anyway.
What the Constitution was fro, was to tell the govt. what it could and could
not do. Since there is nothing one way or another about equal rights to
gays, using the 10th Amendment as my basis for this, I would say that that
is reserved to the states.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 31 Mar 97 03:36:57
EID:d35b 227f1c80
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A317
REPLY: 1:270/415@FidoNet 202D8EE4
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
Re: Re: Exemplifying examples
> I hate to tell you this, but the Framers were deists, not Christians.
First, do you really hate to tell people that? Seems that those that have
been told the wrong things love to educate people on what they are wrong
on.
Some of the American founding fathers were Deists, but not the majority.
Most were indeed born again Christians.
> At least half of them were Freemasons as well. In the sense that they
Yes, but even most of them did truly love God. They just were deceived
about
that secret society.
Although, some like Washignton, did warn about the Illuminati infiltating
them.
> believed in a Creator (a God), yes they did. They did not follow the
> tenets of Christianity, or any subset thereof. And even granting that
> they were deists, consider this statement by Thomas Jefferson: "What
> does it matter if my neighbour worships twenty gods or no god? It neither
> picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Does it make sense for that same
> person to write a document grounded in one specific religion? Why does
> every writing involving the Framers after the Constitution speak of a
> wall of separation between Church and State? Admittedly, we had to wait
> for the 14th Amendment to guarantee the 1st Amendment at the state level,
> but by then no state had a recognised state church anyway.
THat amendment should never have been passed, as that is the state's
responsibility. That is what the Constitution was all about, restricting
the
federal government, not the state ones.
America was to be free from laws forcing one religion or the other, but
that
does not mean that Christianity wasn't to be the main religion.
Church and State? The only thing you could ever find on that, would be
a
letter by Jefferson. Nothing else states they were for seperation of church
and state.
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 31 Mar 97 03:39:38
EID:d35b 227f1ce0
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A318
REPLY: 1:270/415@FidoNet 320AF47B
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
Re: Re: Exemplifying examples
> I think you miss the point. In all truth, I don't care what you believe.
> You can worship Jehovah, YHVH, Odin, Isis, Allah, Brahma, or Eris with
> equal impunity. I don't care. What I do care about is the that I don't
> seem to get, at least in public, the same sort of reciprocal treatment.
> Apparently the fact that I don't believe in God bothers some people, and
> they've got their hearts set on convincing me that I'm somehow wrong.
Well, you may not care about others, but perhaps they care about you. I
doubt very many Christians could rest easy if they thought you would go
to
Hell when you died. That appears to be why many seem to casre so much.
If
you knew that someone was going to have something bad happen to him, wouldn't
you try to warn them about it, if it could be prevented?
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Freedom Of Choice
|Date: 31 Mar 97 11:26:03
EID:c04e 227f5b40
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A31D
REPLY: 1:270/415@FidoNet 9F98036A
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
Re: Freedom Of Choice
> KY>Thank you. I never looked at it that way, but I would say you are
probabl
> KY>right. It was something I had a feeling was wrong, but didn't really
know
> KY>why.
> KY>The best I could come up with before, was that since procreation could
not
> KY>come from it, the main purpose of sex could not be present, and therefore
> KY>could be unnatural.
> Well, that works for a blow job, but doesn't touch not going down on
> your wife.
I have heard that argument when debating about maturbation, but I would
say
if it is clear it is wrong for one, then it would be wrong for everyone.
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 31 Mar 97 14:53:29
EID:65aa 227f76a0
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A320
REPLY: 1:270/415@FidoNet 0F58AFA1
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
Re: You forgot to answer thi
> GH> (NEWS FLASH: Hitler was NOT a Christian...he was
> GH> a lunatic on the order of Jimmy Jones)
> VALID NEWS FLASH: Hitler was a Christian--- he said so.
> But then, so was the Rev Jim Jones.
Oh, he said so. That makes it true? If someone said they were a Jew,
couldn't they be lying about it? If someone said they were a Wiccan,
couldn't they be wrong on what Wiccans believe? JUst because someone says
they are something, doesn't make it a fact.
Hitler likely thought he was a Christian, but what he did, was merged the
beliefs and ideas of God and Satan.
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:15:38
EID:b935 227f89e0
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A323
REPLY: 1:270/415@FidoNet 2C8D3521
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> But it was a pretty patheic mass suicide, really. Not even 5% of good
> Christian Jim Jones' body count. More people get killed at European soccor
> matches or Guns -n- Roses concerts.
Maybe that is because in Guyana, it wasn't just suicide. Many were
murderered.
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:20:29
EID:35b5 227f8a80
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A324
REPLY: 1:270/415@FidoNet D583D7CD
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
Re: Fundy Frolics 1/3
> FR> This is one of the primary reasons why your death cult has the bloody
> FR> history that it does.
> I belong to no death-cult.
Tell me, how do you define "death cult?"
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:26:00
EID:6f27 227f8b40
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A325
REPLY: 1:270/415@FidoNet 0D28DA85
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
Re: Court Records
> FR> Greetings, Jim, in the precious name of go fuck yourself.
> Man, you certainly know the language, Freddy. The foul language that it.
> You talk that way in front of your son? And then do you chastize him
> when he uses it back at you?
Do you honestly expect anything different, Jim? You know how it goes.
When
people can't debate intelligently, they must resort to such juvenile tactics.
More than likely he does. People prejudice of Christians usually are pretty
hypocritical.
> FR> Thanks in advance, homophobic pig!
> Evidence?
Evidence? Now, you know perfectly well they have a problem with things
like
that.
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Sean Coldren
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 01 Apr 97 03:41:36
EID:6eab 22811d20
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A339
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A325
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
Re: Court Records
> > FR> Thanks in advance, homophobic pig!
> > Evidence?
> Evidence? Now, you know perfectly well they have a problem with things
like
> that.
Boy Ken.... They are really getting to know you. :) Homophobic pig....
well they got the homophobic thing right, but not the pig part. For as
much
as we disagree on stuff, including the Gay issue, I don't think of you as
a
pig. A very..... stubborn, thick headed, person, but not a pig. :)
I do have to agree with you on one thing, Ken. When someone can't come
up
with an intelligent reply, it does come down to name calling, unfortunitly.
For all you people that have no idea of who I am, I will just say that I
am one of Ken's long time rivials on the gay issue, and some politics.
Not
all though.
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 01 Apr 97 20:28:17
EID:ffe7 2281a380
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3341b850
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e09778b
George Harper said "CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS" to Karen Davis, adding:
GH> You said:
KD> Why should a woman who is not having sex take the pill because she might
KD> be raped? Not all women can take the pill - some have medical conditions
KD> which would lead to serious complications. Were I able to have children,
KD> I wouldn't be a good candidate.
GH> *IF* you could have children??? What the devil are you in this for,
GH> if it doesn't affect YOU? (Same general question YOU have asked men
GH> who write in this thread).
And when _you_ can get knocked up, Georgie-Porgie, you can
suggest valid laws for those who bear children. Nobody may listen to
you, of course, but you can at least suggest.
Speaking of your suggestions, have you posted any of those
details yet on the evidence of Noah's Flood supposedly in the
archives of the Colorado School of Mines? People were probably well
advised to pay no attention when you asserted _that_, either, but
what the hell, we live to give you guys an opportunity to show your
true colors.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Alan Hess
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:52:30
EID:cadf 2281ae80
Whilst masticating on , Marilyn Burge (1:105/302.666)
wrote to Alan Hess:
GLH>> Aha! The light dawns. Magically, when a Jew begins to believe
GLH>> in the teachings of Christ, he or she becomes non-semitic!
AH>> No, he becomes a Christian, which is non-Jewish. Judaism is a
AH>> religion, not a race.
MB> It's also an ethnic identity, dimbulb. My son-in-law is an atheistic
Jew.
MB> Like it or lump it. There are literally hundreds of thousands of them
MB> worldwide.
That still doesn't make Judaism a race.
--- Msged/2 4.10
* Origin: Nerve Center - Source of the SPINAL_INJURY echo! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Ronald Vass
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Ahem???
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:53:00
EID:ec5a 2281aea0
MSGID: 1:221/1503 3341CED7
From: RICHARD SMITH
To: RONALD VASS
Subj: Ahem???
-
RS> * Original msg to: George Harper
RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> George Harper said to Ronald Vass about AHEM??:
RS> gh> Won't quote your
RS> . . . alleged . . .
Shit. I guess i forgot to post the author. Except I'm sure, I
didn't forget.
RS> gh> diatribe.
It was that, Wasn't it ?
RS> Discretion being, as always, the better part of cowardice.
RS> Who's military were you in?
Just a twinkel in someones eye.
RS> gh> Hitler's speech, which you
RS> gh> quoted, truly points to his claiming Christianity. I
RS> gh> never denied he was a self-proclaimed Christian. I
RS> Thanx for this tacit admission.
If you claim to be Christian, watch out. Danger. Danger.
RS> gh> merely pointed out that he was mentally unbalanced
RS> So? So was Rasputin (also a Xtian, btw), as have been many
RS> others. Your point?
And Al. S. best Christian reference.
RS> gh> (surely his speech hints at that) and obsessed with
RS> gh> "cleansing" the jewish blood from his veins...
RS> Source for this information, please . . .
I also didn't see that in the reply to Mr. G. , but what the
hell. Christians make it up as they go along.
RS> gh> I suggest you read my rather lengthy replies on this
RS> gh> subject, addressed to Alan Hess, Alec Grynspan, and
RS> gh> others in this echo.
RS> And I suggest he read the replies to you.
Hell my man. I'm missing 99.88888888888% of all replys. Bad Fido,
beening real bad. Nasty dog. Just like a harpy. Give it a piece of
pie and it, shits its self.
RS> gh> If, after you read those, you
RS> gh> have any doubts about what Hitler's motivations were,
RS> I somehow think that Ron doesn't have any doubts now.
Doults. What doults ?????? Beware of the Christian or at
least those who claim to be christian.
RS> gh> go to the library and check out any one of several
RS> gh> works on the life and times of this monster
RS> You could always cite YOUR source instead. I know you
RS> won't, but . . .
They always tell you that your wrong, but never give any, backup.
What a pity.
RS>... (Hitler was) an individual of great courage... -- Pat Buchanan,
1977
R I G H T . . .
* SLMR 2.1a * *** Sandra And her Mists Of Distortion ***
--- Alexi/Mail 2.02b (#10000)
* Origin: *-* Holysmoke Hellions & Help Group *-* (1:221/1503)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: [1/2] Book specimen
|Date: 02 Apr 97 01:15:12
EID:a158 228209e0
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333fc758
MSGID: 1:229/622 3341b384
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DM> Over the weekend, I started trying to pull my thoughts
DM> together for a beginning point of the book, and came up with
DM> the stuff below. [...]
Yes! Keep it up!
DM> My parents had been raised Catholic but apparently
DM> dropped out of that church when they learned to read.
FAQ! FAQ!
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: George Harper
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 02 Apr 97 01:25:42
EID:f0c1 22820b20
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e097785
MSGID: 1:229/622 3341b62a
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
GH> *YOU* are calling *ME* "dumbass?
Yes, I believe he was.
GH> My choice of religion pays off if
GH> it's the right one, OR the "wrong" one... Because I opt to believe
GH> that Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Ghost are the ONE REAL God...as
GH> long as I continue in this belief, and fulfill all it's precepts...I
GH> go to Heaven. Since it is my firm intent to do just that, I WILL go
GH> to Heaven.
And, By God, you're going there whether it exists or not, right?
GH> Oh, by the way, I win Pascal's Wager...everyone who loses, payment is
GH> due...Hale Bopp is coming!
We've noticed. And this means exactly?
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 02 Apr 97 01:30:28
EID:828f 22820bc0
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e097788
MSGID: 1:229/622 3341b703
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
GH> As for Ron Fitzsimmons' statements: When they were made, there was
GH> such an uproar that research was done...and evidence found to
GH> support the claim.
Excellent. What evidence? Many of us have been searching
but unable to find it. Please direct us to verifiable sources.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 30 Mar 97 07:27:29
EID:64ce 227e3b60
MSGID: 1:207/212 85fb382c
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333aed90
On (27 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karen Davis...
KY> I try to keep an open mind on a lot of things, but that is not of the
KY> things I can see myself changing my mind on. Besides, good chance my
KY> partner will agree with me.
KY> For one thing, I don't see why a heterosexual would do it in the first
KY> place. Seems to me that regular sex would be enough.
OK, Ken - that is a fine statement of your own preferences and I am sure
you will find a partner who will satisfy them. Nobody needs to do
anything they don't want to do.
Now take your certainty and imagine being that certain that sex with a
woman would be distasteful. Or finding it out after actually trying
straight sex. Can you understand that your certainty that you are
straight is actually evidence for the innate quality of sexual
orientation?
As to why hets try things other than plain ordinary sex, consider that 1.
variety is often desirable and 2. a partner may be "closed" occasionally
to 'normal' sex. Menstruation, the last stages of pregnancy, other
health issues all come into play. Many couples just live with it, say
"not tonight" and wait until the situation is over. You might be one of
those. Others have stronger drives and find they need to use
alternatives. It's just the way things are, Ken.
... ¿Ú¿Ú¿Ú¿Ú¿ô ... Loch Ness Tagline
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 30 Mar 97 07:34:30
EID:64ce 227e3c40
MSGID: 1:207/212 8559fbe3
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333aeea8
On (27 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karen Davis...
KY> There is a reason.. He didn't.
KY> As I have said before, you make yourself who you are today. So, why
KY> can't that include sexuality?
Wait a minute here, Ken. You're contradicting yourself from the post I
just replied to. You say you'd never be gay, and I believe you. But then
you say gays make themselves that way.
Which is it, Ken?
... "I remember doing the time-warp..."
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 30 Mar 97 07:35:33
EID:a944 227e3c60
MSGID: 1:207/212 86040469
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333aef68
On (27 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> If one is deceived into something, it is a fairly easy task to open
KD> their eyes. Gay teenagers have the highest rate of suicide. Why?
KY> Because they feel trapped in a lifestyle that they think they don't
KY> have a choice about. They have been told there is no choice, so they
KY> believe that.
KY> It is easy to open the eyes of the decieved? HArdly.. When one is
KY> convinced of something, it takes a lot to convince them otherwise.
Huh? Gay teenagers kill themselves because they know people like you are
out there.
... A bad day BBSing is better than a good day at work!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: George Harper
|Sub: HOW ABOUT 1-ON-1?
|Date: 30 Mar 97 07:35:59
EID:ec02 227e3c60
MSGID: 1:207/212 7251ce6f
REPLY: 1:104/447 2c16f372
On (28 Mar 97) George Harper wrote to Karen Davis...
GH> However, if we *DID* all speak as of one mind, we would be accused of
GH> "parrotting". A total "lose|lose" situation...
Well, you could be more internally consistent.
GH> The only thing we demonstrate by disagreeing is that wee are capable
GH> of thought, and that there ARE varying perceptions. THere is only
GH> one thing that DEMANDS that we all view it in the same context: the
GH> purpose of
GH> Christ's life and death. We MUST agree on the Divinity/origin of
GH> Christ; His teachings; and the universality of His Sacrifice and
GH> Resurrection.
I doubt there is any thought going on, when there is clearly so much
evidence that your whole religion is mythology.
GH> Christians are no more, or less, representative of a collective body
GH> than are the non-Christians. Our political views differ, as do our
GH> exigencies... not all of us have a surplus of everything...most of us
GH> work for a living, and we enjoy different pastimes. We don't all
GH> have a grasp of semantics, or have even a working knowldge of geology,
GH> or archaeology. Our emphases in respect to religious practices also
GH> vary widely: Some baptize by immersion, others by merely sprinkling
GH> water on the head of the subject. Some observe the seasons of the
GH> church year more rigidly than others. In short, we are just as
GH> diverse a cross-section of society as the atheists, so of course we
GH> sometimes disagree.
But you're supposed to be following the same Bible. If the Bible is so
inerrant, there wouldn't be any such disagreements among REAL
Christians.
GH> And, if you read several of the posts in this echo, you will realize
GH> that there are several atheists that DO believe their belief system
is
GH> beneficial to everyone...they even try to proselytize. Next time I
GH> spot one, I'll TRY to forward it to you...
There's a difference between atheistm being beneficial and recognizing
that Christianity is harmful.
... BREAKFAST.COM Halted...Cereal Port Not Responding
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 07:38:38
EID:8f1e 227e3cc0
MSGID: 1:207/212 37f26b8c
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 33c84f52
On (29 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> I will consider how brave I am feeling on Saturday. Hubby and I will
KD> be taking my car in for work in the morning, we often use that bagel
KD> place when we've dropped off a car for service.
JS> Cool. It will be worth the effort just for experiment's sake.
Unfortunately, we didn't go there for bagels yesterday morning.
I'd promise you I'd try it some other time, but my life has turned
upside down in the past month, so I can't make such promises.
... Honesty is the best policy unless you are a crook.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 30 Mar 97 07:40:07
EID:64ce 227e3d00
MSGID: 1:207/212 6714fb60
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333c5bd2
On (29 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Biologically trapped. Just as someone with a physical disability would
KD> feel trapped in his/her wheelchair. Just as I feel trapped in a
KD> depressive brain at the moment.
KY> So, are you saying that homosexuality is a disability or handicap?
An innate difference. Handicap/disability would refer to an difference
or condition which prevented the individual from engaging some "normal"
activities. Obviously being sexually attracted to men as opposed to
women is no more a disability than being attracted to redheads as
opposed to blondes. You just find the partner of your choice.
KY> But see, when one feels trapped, the best thing to do is not accept
KY> the current situation, but try to do whatever possible to overcome it.
Or to work WITH the difference, such as a deaf person learning sign
language as opposed to trying to speak. A physically handicapped person
recognizing that a wheelchair is better than his/her ability on
crutches. Some differences/handicaps can't be overcome. I cannot
overcome being 4'9" - I can't grow taller. I *can* recognize what
choices I do not have at this height that a taller person would have.
In the same way, a gay individual cannot change their orientation, but
they can learn to accept it and work with it, just like I have learned
how to use stepstools and am trying to learn how to alter clothes.
KD> The best answer is that it feels good, and is an option for a woman
to
KD> please her partner when she's "closed."
KY> Well, I have heard that those that think it feels good is because they
KY> actually to at least some degree actually like pain.
That is something that comes into sex for many people. Why do you think
men like to sleep with virgin women? Because they know it will hurt her.
KY> Well, not like it is anything to be ashamed of, so yes, I am a virgin.
I'm not asking you to be ashamed, but maybe you should recognize that
experience does change how one sees sex.
... An ignorant person is constantly surprised.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy 01/
|Date: 30 Mar 97 09:34:04
EID:4896 227e4c40
MSGID: 1:207/212 a0501ba1
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 33371a8e
On (25 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Judith Bandsma...
KY> I have never heard of that stuff occurring. If it does, why?
KY> Granted, it wouldn't be the most pleasant feeling experience, but how
KY> would it make one lose her teeeth, for example?
Why? In a nutshell because pregnancy is a serious drain on a female.
Look at a cat or dog just after kindling/whelping. Do they look in
wonderful shape? Have you ever spent any time whatsoever with a pregnant
woman?
KY> No, it is what I have seen. I have known several to get abortions,
KY> and they are generally an emotional wreck afterwards.
KY> Also, it seems to harden most women quite a bit.
Making tough decisions does that to a person. I've known MORE women who
gave children up for adoption who have been emotional wrecks afterwards.
... Real men don't abuse children.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 30 Mar 97 09:43:06
EID:0836 227e4d60
MSGID: 1:207/212 ccd7ad98
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 33394ff8
On (26 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Richard Smith...
KY> I would complain about abortion because it denies many the right to
KY> live.
Those who are aborted have not reached a point where they have any
rights yet.
A child who still lives in his parents' house doesn't have the same
rights as an adult who lives on his own. Thus a fetus that is still
inside the mother does not have the same rights as it will when it comes
out.
Simple as that. Take it back early enough and you see that the mother's
right to make decisions about her body in the first 3 months is
paramount.
... "This Old Starship" with your host, Montgomery Scott.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 30 Mar 97 09:45:16
EID:841d 227e4da0
MSGID: 1:207/212 ec02ea57
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333952f4
On (26 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Richard Smith...
KY> I would say yes to both things, as that is how it was intended to be.
KY> But that is not how it is today. Even back when I was in school, I
KY> saw people being stopped from praying by themselves, because that
KY> would be against the
KY> "seperation of church and state."
No, Ken, you did not. There is no way that a teacher could stop someone
from praying by themselves.
KY> And actually, there was a Congressman, I think a year ago, that tried
KY> to get school prayer back, but more like how you described it, where
KY> the prayers would be rotated, in fairness.
[rolling eyes] this is the most idiotic idea I have ever heard.
RS> time and make attendence voluntary. After all, this is a
RS> country founded on religious freedoms . . .
KY> Yes, but it was also founded on Christian beliefs.
Nope. Name one Christian belief it was founded on.
Christians believe there is only one way to God.
The Constitution allows each of us to choose our own way, or none.
... It's 11:00pm, do you know what your cats are shredding?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Freedom Of Choice
|Date: 30 Mar 97 09:48:05
EID:64ce 227e4e00
MSGID: 1:207/212 e5a33efb
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 3339583e
On (26 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Richard Smith...
KY> The best I could come up with before, was that since procreation could
KY> not come from it, the main purpose of sex could not be present, and
KY> therefore it could be unnatural.
What about me, Ken? I was born without the ability to bear children,
thus every single time I have ever had sex that purpose was not present.
Unnatural?
... The behavioral scientist pulls habits out of rats.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: George Harper
|Sub: clones [2]
|Date: 30 Mar 97 11:48:01
EID:acd1 227e5e00
MSGID: 1:207/212 b19f9b21
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b097e39
On (26 Mar 97) George Harper wrote to Richard Smith...
GH> No, that's reality....Bram Stoker's tales were dealing with various
GH> methods of creating life from pre-existing life, without the
GH> involvement of sexual liaison...that is a precise definition of
GH> cloning. What is
GH> being reported as cloning in the news is nothing more than an advanced
GH> form of Artificial Insemination, substituting viable DNA material
GH> taken from a piece of living tissue, rather than from semen, and
GH> implanting that into a surrogate mother's ovuum, to cause
GH> fertilization.
Wrong on a couple of counts here, George.
Bram Stoker wrote Dracula. Not Frankenstein. Mary Shelley wrote
Frankenstein. But of course someone like you would forget a woman and
give credit to a man whenever you can.
Frankenstein has *nothing* to do with cloning. READ the book, forget the
horror movies that are very very loosely based on the book.
And consider, George, that what you call *true* cloning has to be gotten
to by steps.
... Mr. Worf, fire at will. **ZAP!** Number One?!?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: George Harper
|Sub: RE: ARROGANCE
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:02:03
EID:a581 227e6040
MSGID: 1:207/212 52063f60
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b97c991
On (27 Mar 97) George Harper wrote to Martin Goldberg...
GH> I admit the statistical odds appear overwhelming. If you believe your
GH> odds are better than mine...show me the math! I dare you! And if YOU
GH> are wrong, and the RIGHT choice has a hell, you're gonna fry along
GH> with all the others who made a bad choice, no matter how strong your
GH> denial. Your only hope is that someone who found the right religion
GH> left some sort of marker (like maybe a cross on a hill) to point the
GH> way...but you're probably to blinded by self-importance to see it
GH> anyhow...
OK, if they all have an equal probability of being correct, then I'm not
going to choose one that lies and says it's the only way.
... Contentment: enjoying the scenery along the detour
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: [1/2] Netmail Spam
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:02
EID:b64d 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f97
TID: GE/2 1.2
ro> Apparently-to: Don_Martin@f1000.n261.z1.fidonet.org
ro> From: rocket77@one.net
RC> This reminded me to check the netmail area, which I rarely
RC> if ever do, and I found the same junkmail sent to me by the
RC> same anonymous idiot.
DM> Isn't it wonderful to be remembered at this time of the
DM> year?
April 1st?
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: RICHARD SMITH
|Sub: Nominations . . .
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:03
EID:eb0c 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f98
TID: GE/2 1.2
RS>> Rather, facetiously, I was making light of your bluntness,
RS>> while being envious of the same ability. Please excuse me
RS>> if it came across as anything else.
RC> Don't mind Worrell. His face itches, and it makes him grouchy.
RS> LOL! . . .
Where is our favorite Snide One lately? I return to over one and a
half thousand messages (in HOLYSMOKE alone!) to find he's among the
missing. Did the UFO hiding behind Hale-Bopp beam him up, or what?
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: AMANDA BARLOWE
|Sub: UNKNOWING
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:04
EID:2755 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f99
TID: GE/2 1.2
AB> I WANT TO APOLOGIZE TO EVERYONE
You don't need to _SHOUT_ to apologize, dear.
AB> AS A CHRISTIAN, I AM SUPPOSED TO BE UPLIFTING CHRISTS NAME.
Is there nothing more meaningful for you to do than that?
I mean, think about it: what good is there in "uplifting"
religious superstition and make believe? There are many better
things for people to do with their time than _that_.
AB> I WILL STILL PRAY FOR YOU ALL.
Are you praying for me, too? May I suggest how to phrase the prayer?
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: GEORGE HARPER
|Sub: Pascal's Wager
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:05
EID:f8e8 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f9a
TID: GE/2 1.2
GH> I am comfortable with my choice of which God to follow.
The Pepper Fiend specializes in making deluded people feel comfortable.
GH> I am thus content to await the revelation of the True God's
GH> One Name,
You mean the Great Dodecaheaded One, right?
GH> and to accept whatever consequences may ensue *IF* my choice
GH> incorrect.
An honest god would reward atheists for not believing in it, because
after all, without evidence for its existence, only nonbelief is
intellectually honest. "Faith" is often just an excuse for credulity.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Idiot Tax
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:06
EID:67d1 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f9b
TID: GE/2 1.2
DM>> I now seem to have zero zeros.
DM>> Whatever shall I do now?
RC> Prepare to be lobotomized for entry into the Land of T-verse,
RC> where it is *de riguer* to parrot math terms without
RC> understanding them, only to be insulted if someone comes
RC> along with an offer to assist you in learning better,
RC> and to parrot anything you read about quantum mechanics,
RC> the better to pretend false knowledge of arcane matters.
DM> AIIIEEEEE!
You should have saved that for Brawley's response in which he
told you his revelation that 0 - 0 = 1.
He should teach math wherever Appletoon teaches biology.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: GEORGE HARPER
|Sub: confirmation
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:07
EID:1e76 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f9c
TID: GE/2 1.2
SS>> You really believe that mindlessly accepting an ancient myth
SS>> is thinking. ROTFL!
GH>> Yes, I do
RS> Thanx for the confirmation, Georgie. I appreciate it.
RC> A refreshing admission!
GH> You don't get it, do you?
The humor of your situation? Oh, yes. We all get it.
GH> The myth that God is NOT real
Is like the myth that Santa Claus is not real. While both gods and
Santa Clauses are real in some people's imaginations, they have
no other "real" qualities, to my knowledge, _outside imagination_.
GH> You subscribe to this myth,
Thank you for telling me what I subscribe to. You are wrong, but
thanks anyway. :-)
GH> I agreed...believing an ancient myth IS thinking.
GH> At least you claim it is, and that's good enough for me.
Now while it's funny for you to say silly things like "believing
in an ancient myth is thinking," George, it is not quite as funny
when you resort to the outright lie of placing those words in
the mouths of those who never claimed such a thing. Quit lying,
unless dishonesty and deception is the staple of your religion.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:08
EID:ba46 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f9d
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Ken "Execute Her!" Wiens
RC> Is there any nation in the world that executes _12-year-olds_?
RC> Let alone 12-year-old *victims* of *rape*!
JB> Yes, world-wide there are 4 or 5 with laws allowing the
JB> execution of minors. The United States is one of them.
12-year-olds?
JB> Although this has not been carried out in quite some time,
JB> efforts to remove the death penalty for minors have been
JB> repeatedly defeated.
A shameful and disgusting aspect of our society. My opinions on
capital punishment in general are similar to those of most Quakers.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: ask your librarian
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:09
EID:1a49 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f9e
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Somehow I doubt that. No librarian could be THAT stupid.
JB> Yes, they could. Mine didn't even know WHO Sophocles was,
JB> let alone where to find him.
Is no one allowed to have their wishful thinking left uncriticized
around here?
JB> I spent half a day in a real funk of disbelieving that
JB> one...but it happened.
Perhaps I've been spoiled by some of the best librarians around.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: KATHERINE WINTERSNIGHT
|Sub: God's terrorists!
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:10
EID:b6a7 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5f9f
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> I always offer the Mormons a nicely chilled drink of some
RC> other caffeinated beverage of their choice, though.
KW> I've had a lot of fun with a LDS 'friend' of mine by sweetly
KW> pointed out that chocolate also contains caffein . That
KW> always sends her into a tailspin ending with chanted recitations
KW> of 'is not, is not, is not, is not . . ."
Thank you for the inspiration for my new offering. Chocolate it will
be from now on.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: RICHARD SMITH
|Sub: in a nutshell
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:11
EID:3dfc 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa0
TID: GE/2 1.2
RS> I understand you're the guy to talk to about Zerotheism.
RS> We have this pepper tree right next to our new house . . .
RS> are our immortal souls in danger?
O Feindish Follower of Pepper, not only is *your* blasphemous soul
in danger, but so are the souls of all your neighbors. They should
get together to kill you immediately in the name of God (simply as
a matter of self-defense, mind you).
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: RICHARD SMITH
|Sub: letter to the editor
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:12
EID:460e 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa1
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> What do you think of a government agency deciding to use tax
RC> dollars to build a religious chapel in Tampa International
RC> Airport? The Florida State Constitution prohibits the state
RC> from spending money to promote religion (Article I, Section 3)
RC> but religious fanatics just ignore it.
RS> I know you didn't ask me, but if you don't mind me acting
RS> like Georgie, I have an opinion. (But then, you knew that,
RS> didn't you?) I think that chapel needs to be struck by
RS> lightning, repeatedly, as soon as possible. Thermite will
RS> be an acceptible alternative to lightning.
Airport renovations have not yet begun due to budgetary problems.
Eliminating the chapel from those renovation plans would provide
some relief. I'll find out from the Chapel Watchdog Committee
which is gaining more grassroots support around here.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: GEORGE HARPER
|Sub: maxi-post
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:13
EID:7a59 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa2
TID: GE/2 1.2
GH> Final Disclaimer: *I* do not claim infallibility for myself,
Why not?
GH> so there is a potential for finding inaccuracies in what
GH> I cite as evidence.
Especially as you've made very little effort, George, to really
investigate the issue critically. That leaves you with a gullible
outlook, ready to swallow the most absurd statements so long as
they conform to your superstitious religious beliefs.
You never learned how to think for yourself very well, did you,
and it shows. It is not too late to learn, however, provided
only that you have the courage and honesty to make a real effort
in that direction.
GH> If any of my claims is incontrovertably PROVEN inaccurate,
GH> leaving less doubt than the was in the minds of OJ's
GH> criminal trial jury, I will retract them and say "O WELL!"
GH> ...however, until they ARE so proven,
They are still just your emptyheaded, gullible claims, which have
failed to earn any respect because you have utterly failed to
support them with evidence.
GH> the challenge to "see for yourself" stands unanswered.
Everyone here can see for herself how lame your reasoning is, and
the excuses you make for not having any evidence to provide in
support of your mere assertions are -- not to put too fine a point
on the matter -- just more shit from your cesspool of laziness.
GH> Further, I refute any claims you make based on writings
GH> sympathetic to your philosophy on the grounds of their being
GH> mythology...
You seem to have confused your own *modus operandi* of unthinking
belief in ancient mythologies and books of superstition with the
more thoughtful statements from those who do not appeal to such
things.
GH> whether they predate the writings upon which I base my faith,
GH> or not...
The _Epic of Gilgamesh_ for instance.
Remember, it was Utnapishtim's ark first. :-)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: CHRISTOPHER HUGHES
|Sub: hateful
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:14
EID:c6ee 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa3
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC>> I disagree. It is possible to be a bigot without having
RC>> religious dogmatism to assist to prop up such bigotry.
CH>> It's possible, but again, it falls to utter irrationality.
RC> In other words, without religion to prop up hate, it's easier
RC> for someone to grow beyond it.
CH> Right. It can be done, but it normally takes an argument
CH> like "Well, I think it's disgusting so nobody should do it."
CH> That falls apart with a good reversal on the arguer, and
CH> typically won't stand in all but the really blind-to-the-obvious.
Indeed. It takes *faith* to insist (seriously) that using pepper
or allowing it to be used is blasphemous and wrong. A secular world-
view does not encourage hatred over matters of personal taste.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: another for the FAQ
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:15
EID:77af 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa4
TID: GE/2 1.2
ky> Just wait. In a year, you will likely
ky> be the one running out of here.
FR> How many times have fundies made _that_ claim?
Let me see. That would be n times, for some n which is a positive
integer greater than N, where N is the number of times required
for me to lose count.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: CHRISTOPHER HUGHES
|Sub: Incompleteness Theorems
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:16
EID:3933 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa5
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Idiot Brawley
JB> There is also that small issue of Godel's little finding....
JB> NO math system is 100% internally consistent (has propsitions
JB> not decidable from within the system), and cannot be.
Good grief. Consistency and decidability are two completely
different things.
CH> Goedel's Theorem only states that every math system relies
CH> on a set of untestable axioms.
This is quite misleading. For a wonderful no-higher-math-required
intro to Goedel's Incompleteness Theorems (plural), please see
Hofstadter's _Goedel, Escher, Bach_.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: SUE ARMSTRONG
|Sub: CE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:17
EID:5212 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa6
TID: GE/2 1.2
SA> Hell with it. Maybe we should just count the years from the
SA> formation of the Earth. This would be year 4.5 billion and
SA> something. :) It's got to be better than some American in
SA> an article someone posted here saying the entire world should
SA> start counting dates from the American Revolution. That's
SA> as bad as the CURRENT system.
Well, the entire issue is arbitrary; like deciding on which side
of the road one should drive. So long as everyone in a region knows
the arbitrary rule (right side or left, as the case may be), it
doesn't matter why. The benefit is derived from arbitrary consensus
in these situations -- utility is the driving force behind such
usages or rules of the road.
It takes a considerable effort to engage in the reform of arbitrary
matters like calendars or weights and measures.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: ad hominem
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:18
EID:9b37 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa7
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Resorting to make believe when you have no facts is a fundy
RC> trait, John. It really is sad to see how far you've fallen
RC> to emulate those ridiculous creationist loons.
JB> Rank dishonesty on your part is also cause for message response
JB> termination.
Since you were the one making the accusation wihout supporting it
with evidence, it would appear you are the dishonest one. I know
better than to believe that, though: it isn't so much dishonesty
that explains your behavior as it is simple stupidity.
JB> ... "I believe _because_ it is absurd." --Tertullian
Ah, your hero? :-)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JOHN BRAWLEY
|Sub: Brawley's amazing skill
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:19
EID:ba04 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa8
TID: GE/2 1.2
with: Peter Diehr
JB>> I would be the _first_ to admit that I understood about
JB>> 1/100 of what Conway says in the whole book, but I would
JB>> also claim that where Conway touches on concepts pertinent
JB>> to the image of T-verse, I _do_ understand what he says.
PD> This is a fantastic ability you have, John ... to be able
PD> to discern the meaning of the relevent parts, while not
PD> understanding the rest. Truly astounding.
JB> That which we specialize in, we recognize, even when it's
JB> buried in the midst of a whole LOT of things we are NOT
JB> familiar with.
Peter makes better sense than you do, because -- in the context
of mathematics -- for the understanding of one thing, you generally
need to understand several basic foundational things beforehand.
JB> Given your attempt at reasoning above,
You seem to have missed the fact that I forwarded the post from
PHYSICS, where it originated from Peter.
JB> you would not be able to recognize the face of your own child
JB> peering out of a crowd of a few hundred unfamiliar faces.
The problem here, John, is that you "recognize" your tetrahedrashit
child's "face" in a few rocks on Mars, hardly a crowd of faces.
JB> C'mon, Robert, you're really stretching it, merely to add
JB> another negative comment.
Stretching? Let's see what you claim to recognize in Conway's book.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ALL
|Sub: This could be the start
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:20
EID:88e0 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fa9
TID: GE/2 1.2
I like this one, so it gets top billing:
Ciya loves me, this I know,
For your cunning tells me so.
Little ones sing her this song;
Slapping gods because they're wrong!
CH> "Satan loves me, this I know,
CH> For the voices tell me so!
CH> To the Dark One we belong;
CH> Sell your soul and you'll be strong!"
dc> Xenu loves me, this I know,
dc> High above the volcano.
dc> Thetans all to him belong.
dc> Hubbard's weak, but Xenu's strong.
dc> Chthulu loves me this I know,
dc> For the Necronomicon tells me so.
dc> On a cracker I belong.
dc> Or in a broth, I cant go wrong.
FR> Star Goat loves me this I know,
FR> 'Cause the Bible tells me so.
FR> 'Don't believe me? Then just go
FR> read it once [and] then you'll know.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JASON HARMON
|Sub: swipe!
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:21
EID:e402 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5faa
TID: GE/2 1.2
GH> Suffice it to say: When I was a child, I reasoned as a child
GH> now, being a man, I reason as a man
JH> I don't know how well you did for the former, but you seem
JH> to have no success at the latter.
Consider this one swiped.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DARRYL GONZALEZ
|Sub: dumb religious delusions
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:22
EID:2821 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fab
TID: GE/2 1.2
DG> A brilliant mathematician, Dr. Robert Herrman, Professor of
DG> Mathematics at the U. S. Naval Academy, has published an
DG> excellent mathematical demonstration using set theory which
DG> shows that it IS in fact reasonable to believe in God.
Since I have for many years maintained interest both in set theory
AND in religious superstition, the above appeals to my curiosity.
Unfortunately, I am unable to find any reference to this alleged
"demonstration" in order to add it to my collection of amusing
mathematical fallacies. Where did *you* hear of this claim, Darryl?
An extensive multi-library catalog search and Web search for the
man's name turned up nothing.
Kindly provide a full citation for the above, if you can; or let
me know you are just teasing, if you cannot. Thanks.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: CHRISTOPHER HUGHES
|Sub: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:14:23
EID:a099 228161c0
MSGID: 1:3603/210 547a5fac
TID: GE/2 1.2
JB> I'm not very good at throwing _numbers_ around like this, in my
JB> head, but I am very good at throwing _objects_ around so.
Especially when the object he's throwing is a pile of shit. :-)
JB> I can just barely detect that there's another 'zero block' being
JB> inserted into your range [5,15], but I can't pin it down clearly.
CH> Ok, folks. John Brawley has gone over the edge. I'm now slipping
CH> a zero-block between 5 and 15.
ROFL! You have discovered one of the rewards for humoring nutty
people with big egos and a truckload of invincible ignorance:
namely, that sooner or later they say something even MORE absurd
and ridiculous than what they started with. Congratulations.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub: Natural Selection
|Date: 01 Apr 97 13:09:01
EID:30c8 22816920
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a1827
TID: GE/2 1.2
LA>> How could natural selection work before there are already
LA>> some living reproducing animals in existence,
RC> ROFL! Who told you that Natural Selection applies only to
RC> animals?
LA> ROFL!
You play a little game of monkey-see, monkey do when it comes to
laughing, but you're still a complete idiot for totally neglecting
plant and other life.
Moreover, reproduction occurs in more situations than those
involving life. That's why Natural Selection can apply far more
broadly than you ever stopped to think. Please do, if you are
capable of it, try to get a decent secular education.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub: mutations
|Date: 01 Apr 97 13:09:02
EID:4dd7 22816920
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a1828
TID: GE/2 1.2
LA>> As for mutations, we have found that they are uniformly
LA>> negative or neutral in their effect
RC> Kindly cite the evidence (if any!) for this that was
RC> published in a peer-reviewed journal for biologists.
LA> Your question itself is effectively a LIE of course,
That's not a question, Liar Appleton. It's a request for EVIDENCE.
Although you are afraid of such requests, because you have no
evidence to support your empty claims, this does not relieve you
of the *responsibility* to provide evidence for your claims.
LA> since you must surely know what I have said is true anyway
Where is the evidence, please, for such a stupid assertion?
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: LAURIE APPLETON
|Sub: Water and Flood.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 13:09:03
EID:0f6a 22816920
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a1829
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Do you really believe that the Earth was (within ten
RC> thousand years of the present) completely covered by water,
RC> requiring no more water than that which actually exists in
RC> the hydrosphere?
LA> I THINK that it is entitely possible!
Based on what evidence? Make believe is a poor foundation for
actual _thinking_. In fact, I see little evidence to support the
claim that you think at all.
Now it's time for you to do one of two things:
Either present the evidence for your ridiculous belief that the
Earth was within the past ten thousand years completely covered
by water, OR admit that you have no such evidence.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DOUG SCHWANDT
|Sub: codes
|Date: 01 Apr 97 13:09:04
EID:7254 22816920
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a182a
TID: GE/2 1.2
DS> The probability of this system occurring by chance is so
DS> remote that the odds are not even worth mentioning.
Odds are always worth mentioning if they can be supported by
a relevent and applicable sample space. Please do step into
my parlor. :-)
DS> Scientists who have studied these results state no human
DS> could create such a Hebrew document containing hundreds
DS> of encoded, significant words hidden within this text.
I've encountered such claims before. To someone who is ignorant
of how to employ various encoding methods, it may *seem* quite
"impossible" to accomplish, but that is due to ignorance, not an
informed understanding of the possibilities.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ALL
|Sub: Doug Schwandt
|Date: 01 Apr 97 16:08:05
EID:d416 22818100
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a182b
TID: GE/2 1.2
Now I remember this one!
Let's see what I have archived here... coming right up.
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DOUG SCHWANDT
|Sub: Doug: Welcome Back
|Date: 01 Apr 97 16:08:06
EID:de6a 22818100
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a182c
TID: GE/2 1.2
I have a question.
Are you the very same SHAMELESS LIAR Doug Schwandt who in September
of 1996 proclaimed here that "what is illegal is for the school to
allow ANY prayer at ANY time of the school day" -- was that you?
Have you returned in the forlorn hope that your SHAMELESS LYING would
by now have been forgotten?
I challenged you to support your outrageous assertion six times (in
posts dated 11 Sept, 18 Sept, 29 Sept, 11 Oct, 16 Oct, and 4 Nov), and
David Rice challenged you at least twice (16 Sept and 17 Dec).
So what did you do in response? You ran away.
->>> Here's your chance to repent for such cowardice and lying. <<<-
You have the opportunity here and now to do one of two things.
Either present evidence that it is illegal for some school in the
United States to allow "ANY prayer at ANY time of the school day,"
or else find the courage to admit you were only thoughtlessly
repeating unsubstantiated lies by *retracting* your false claim
and also *apologizing* for your SHAMELESS repetition of LIES.
DS> No, what is illegal is for the school to allow ANY prayer
DS> at ANY time of the school day.
In what state? What county, school district, or city? Be specific!
1. I challenge you to name a state where it is illegal is for the
school to allow ANY prayer at ANY time of the school day.
2. I challenge you to name a county where it is illegal is for
the school to allow ANY prayer at ANY time of the school day.
3. I challenge you to name a school district where it is illegal
for the school to allow ANY prayer at ANY time of the school day.
4. I challenge you to name a city where it is illegal is for the
school to allow ANY prayer at ANY time of the school day.
First identify in exactly what jurisdiction you believe it to be
illegal for a school to allow ANY prayer at ANY time of the school
day, Doug. Then we will examine the laws for that district to see
if you have a case.
You wouldn't want to go around spreading misinformation, would you?
Or are you just another SHAMELESS LIAR for god?
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DOUG SCHWANDT
|Sub: School prayer facts 1/3
|Date: 01 Apr 97 16:08:07
EID:bb87 22818100
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a182d
TID: GE/2 1.2
******************* RELIGION IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS *******************
A Joint Statement of Current Law, April 1995
The Constitution permits much private religious activity in and about
the public schools. Unfortunately, this aspect of constitutonal law is
not as well known as it should be. Some say that the Supreme Court has
declared the public schools "religion-free zones" or that the law is so
murky that school officials cannot know what is legally permissible.
The former claim is simply wrong. And as to the latter, while there are
some difficult issues, much has been settled. It is also unfortunately
true that public school officials, due to their busy schedules, may not
be as fully aware of this body of law as they could be. As a result, in
some school districts some of these rights are not being observed.
The organizations whose names appear below span the ideological,
religious, and political spectrum. They nevertheless share a commitment
both to the freedom of religious practice and to the separation of
church and state such freedom requires. In that spirit, we offer this
statement of consensus on current law as an aid to parents, educators,
and students.
Many of the organizations listed below are actively involved in
litigation about religion in the schools. On some of the issues
discussed in this summary, some of the organizations have urged the
courts to reach positions different than they did. Though there are
signatories on both sides which have and will press for different
constitutional treatments of some of the topics below, they all agree
that the following is an accurate statement of what the law currently
is.
Student Prayers
1. Students have the right to pray individually or in groups or to
discuss their religious views with their peers so long as they are
not disruptive. Because the Establishment Clause does not apply to
purely private speech, students enjoy the right to read their Bibles
or other scriptures, say grace before meals, pray before tests, and
discuss religion with other willing student listeners. In the
classroom students have the right to pray quietly except when
required to be actively engaged in school activities (for example,
students may not decide to pray just as a teacher calls on them).
In informal settings, such as the cafeteria or in the halls,
students may pray either audibly or silently, subject to the same
rules of order as apply to other speech in these locations.
However, the right to engage in voluntary prayer does not include,
for example, the right to have a captive audience listen or to
compel other students to participate.
Graduation Prayer and Baccalaureates
2. School officials may not mandate or organize prayer at graduation,
nor may they organize a religious baccalaureate ceremony. If the
school generally rents out its facilities to private groups, it must
rent them out on the same terms, and on a first-come, first-served
basis, to organizers of privately sponsored religious baccalaureate
services, provided that the school does not extend preferential
treatment to the baccalaureae ceremony and the school disclaims
official endorsement of the program.
3. The courts have reached conflicting conclusions under the federal
Constitution on sudent-initiated prayer at graduation. Until the
issue is authoritatively resolved, schools should ask their lawyers
what rules apply in their area.
Official Participation or Encouragement of Religious Activity
4. Teachers and school administrators, when acting in those capacities,
are representatives of the state, and, in those capacities, are
themselves prohibited from encouraging or soliciting student
religious or anti-religious activity. Similarly, when acting in
their official capacities, teachers may not engage in religious
activities with their students. However, teachers may engage in
private religious activity in faculty lounges.
Teaching About Religion
5. Students may be taught about religion, but public schools may not
teach religion. As the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly said,
"It might well be said that one's education is not complete without
a study of comparative religion, or the history of religion and
its relationship to the advancement of civilization." It would be
difficult to teach art, music, literature, and most social studies
without considering religious influences.
The history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other
scripture) as literature (either as a separate course or within some
other existing course) are all permissible public school subjects.
It is both permissible and desirable to teach objectively about the
role of religion in the history of the United States and other
countries. One can teach that the pilgrims came to this country with
a particular religious visionm that Catholics and others have been
subjected to persecution or that many of those participating in the
abolitionist, women's suffrage, and civil rights movements had
religious motivations.
6. These same rules apply to the recurring controversy surrounding
theories of evolution. Schools may teach about explanations of life
on earth, including religious ones (such as "creationism"), in
comparative religion or social studies classes. In science class,
however, they may present only genuinely scientific critiques of,
or evidence for, any explanation of life on earth, but not religious
critiques (beliefs unverifiable by scientific methodology). Schools
may not refuse to teach evolutionary theory in order to avoid giving
offense to religion nor may they circumvent these rules by labeling
as science an article of religious faith. Public schools must not
teach as scintific fact or theory any religious doctrine, including
"creationism," although any genuinely scientific evidence for or
against any explanation of life may be taught. Just as they may
neither advance not inhibit any religious doctrine, teachers should
not ridicule, for example, a student's religious explanation for
life on earth.
Student Assignments and Religion
7. Students may express their religious beliefs in the form of reports,
homework, and artwork, and such expressions are constitutionally
protected. Teachers may not reject or correct such submissions
simply because they include a religious symbol or address religious
themes. Likewise, teachers may not require students to modify,
include, or excise religious views in their assignments, if germane.
These assignments should be judged by ordinary academic standards
of substance, relevance, appearance, and grammar.
Continued in next message...
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DOUG SCHWANDT
|Sub: School prayer facts 2/3
|Date: 01 Apr 97 16:08:08
EID:bb77 22818100
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a182e
TID: GE/2 1.2
...continued from previous message.
8. Somewhat more problematic from a legal point of view are other
public expressions of religious views in the classroom.
Unfortunately for school officials, there are traps on either
side of this issue, and it is possible that litigation will
result no matter what course is taken. It is easier to describe
the settled cases than to state clear rules of law. Schools must
carefully steer between the claims of student speakers who assert
a right to express themselves on religious subjects and the
asserted rights of student listeners to be free of unwelcome
religious persuasion in a public school classromm.
a. Religious or anti-religious remarks made in the ordinary course
of classroom discussion or student presentations are permissible
and constitute a protected right. If in a sex education class a
student remarks that abortion should be illegal because God has
prohibited it, a teacher should not silence the remark, ridicule
it, rule it out of bounds, or endorse it, any more than a teacher
may silence a student's religious based comment in favor of
choice.
b. If a class assignment calls for an oral presentation on a subject
of the student's choosing, and, for example, the student responds
by conducting a religious service, the school has the right -- as
well as the duty -- to prevent itself from being used as a
church. Other students are not voluntarily in attendance and
cannot be forced to become an unwilling congregation.
c. Teachers may rule out-of-order religious remarks that are
irrelevant to the subject at hand. In a discussion of Hamlet's
sanity, for example, a student may not interject views on
creationism.
Distribution of Religious Literature
9. Students have the right to distribute religious literature to their
schoolmates, subject to those reasonable time, place, and manner
or other constitutionaly acceptable restrictions imposed on the
distribution of all non-school literature. Thus, a school may
confine distribution of all literature to a particular table at
particular times. It may not single out religious literature for
burdonsome regulation.
10. Outsiders may not be given access to the classroom to distribute
religious or anti-religious literature. No court has yet
considered whether, if all other community groups are permitted to
distribute literature in common areas of public schools, religious
groups must be allowed to do so on equal terms subject to reasonable
time, place, and manner restrictions.
"See You at the Pole"
11. Student participation in before- or after-school events, such as
"see you at the pole," is permissible. School officials, acting
in an official capacity, may neither discourage nor encourage
participation in such an event.
Religious Persuasion Versus Religious Harrassment
12. Students have the right to speak to, and attempt to persuade, their
peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to
political topics. But school officils should intercede to stop
student religious speech if it turns into religious harrassment
aimed at a student or a small group of students. While it is
constitutionally permissible for a student to approach another and
issue an invitation to attend church, repeated invitations in the
face of a request to stop constitute harrassment. Where this line
is to be drawn in particular cases will depend on the age of the
students and other circumstances.
Equal Access Act
13. Student religious clubs in secondary schools must be permitted to
meet and to have equal access to campus media to announce their
meetings, if a school receives federal funds and permits any student
non-curricular club to meet during non-instructional time. This is
the command of the Equal Access Act. A non-curricular club is any
club not related directly to a subject taught or soon-to-be-taught
in the school. Although schools have the right to ban all non-
curriculum clubs, they may not dodge the law's requirement by the
expedient of declaring all clubs curriculum-related. On the other
hand, teachers may not actively participate in club activities and
"non-school persons" may not control or regularly attend club
meetings.
The Act's constitutionality has been upheld by the Supreme Court,
rejecting claims that the Act violates the Establishment Clause. The
Act's requirements are described in more detail in _The Equal Access
Act and the Public Schools: Questions and Answers on the Equal
Access Act_, a pamphlet published by a broad spectrum of religious
and civil liberties groups.
Religious Holidays
14. Generally, public schools may teach about religious holidays and may
celebrate the secular aspects of the holiday and objectively teach
about their religious aspects. They may not observe the holidays as
religious events. Schools shuld generally excuse students who do not
wish to participate in holiday events. Those interested in further
details should see _Religious Holidays in the Public Schools:
Questions and Answers_, a pamphlet published by a broad spectrum of
religious and civil liberties groups.
Concluded in next message...
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: DOUG SCHWANDT
|Sub: School prayer facts 3/3
|Date: 01 Apr 97 16:08:09
EID:7b26 22818100
MSGID: 1:3603/210 549a182f
TID: GE/2 1.2
...continued from previous message.
Excusal from Religiously Objectionable Lessons
15. Schools enjoy substantial discretion to excuse individual students
from lessons which are objectionable to that student or to his or
her parent on the basis of religion. Schools can exercise that
authority in ways which would defuse many conflicts over curriculum
content. If it is proved that particular lessons substantially
burden a student's free exercise of religion and if the school
cannot prove a compelling interest in requiring attendance the
school would be legally required to excuse the student.
Teaching Values
16. Schools may teach civic virtues, including honesty, good
citizenship, sportsmanship, courage, respect for the rights and
freedoms of others, respect for persons and their property,
civility, the dual virtues of morality and tolerance, and hard work.
Subject to whatever rights of excusal exist (see number 15 above)
under the federal Constitution and state law, schools may teach
sexual abstinence and contraception' whether or how schools teach
these sensitive subjects is a matter of educational policy. However,
these may not be taught as religious tenets. The mere fact that
most, if not all, religions also teach these values does not make
it unlawful to teach them.
Student Garb
17. Religious messages on T-shirts and the like may not be singled out
for suppression. Students may wear religious attire, such as
yarmulkes and head scarves, and they may not be forced to wear gym
clothes that they regard, on religious grounds, as immodest.
Released Time
18. Schools have the discretion to dismiss students to off-premises
religious instruction, provided that schools do not encourage or
discourage participation or penalize those who do not attend.
Schools may not allow religious instruction by outsiders on premises
during the school day.
DRAFTING COMMITTEE
* American Jewish Congress, chair
* American Civil Liberties Union
* American Jewish Committee
* Anti-Defamation League
* Baptist Joint Committee
* Christian Legal Society
* General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
* National Association of Evangelicals
* National Council of Churches
* People for the American Way
* Union of American Hebrew Congregations
ENDORSING ORGANIZATIONS
* American Ethical Union
* American Humanist Association
* Americans for Religious Liberty
* Americans United for Separation of Church and State
* B'nai B'rith International
* Christian Science Church
* Church of the Brethren, Washington Office
* Church of Scientology International
* Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Office
of Governmental Affairs
* Federation of Reconstuctionist Congregations and Havurot
* Friends Committee on National Legislation
* Guru Gobind Singh Foundation
* Interfaith Alliance
* Interfaith Impact for Justice and Peace
* National Council of Jewish Women
* National Jewish Community Relations Advisory Council
* National Ministries, American Baptist Churches, U.S.A.
* National Sikh Center
* North American Council for Muslim Women
* Presbyterian Church, U.S.A.
* Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
* Unitarian Universalist Association of Cogregations
* United Church of Christ, Office for Church in Society
Printed copies of this statement are available from:
The American Humanist Association
7 Harwood Drive, P.O. Box 1188
Amherst, NY 14226-7188
(716) 839-5080 (800) 743-6646
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Robert Curry
|Sub: questions for chosen one
|Date: 29 Mar 97 11:12:46
EID:f4ea 227d5980
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Robert = Curry THEN Damien Wellman ELSE questions for chosen one
DW> If he hasn't, offer to help - politely, of course, with his
DW> choice of death-dealing implement.
RC> I don't offer to do something without the full intention of following
RC> through, and as I have no intention to kill anyone, this will have
RC> to be modified somewhat.
RC> I'll let you know how it turns out.
Well, you could always just, say, give him a little nick with a pocketknife,
rather than actually doing any killing. Such a nick would establish that
either he is fully immortal, or that he won't die naturally but can be
harmed, or that he's crazy. I doubt if he'd agree, though - even if he
WAS immortal, I doubt he'd be too hot about putting it to the test, even
in this exceedingly minor way. Or, ask him if he donates blood, or again,
if he's ever bother checking to see if he's immortal.
DW> Gee, does this mean he could even be gay if he wanted to?
DW> I know that normally, one is born one way or another, but
DW> if he's as special as he says, surely he can do such fiddling
DW> things as change his sexual orientation.
RC> I will _definitely_ have to expand on that section of the questions.
It's a fascinating concept, that's for sure. I mean, this is more than just
a heterosexual engaging in a homosexual act - he'd actually BE homosexual!
RC> He also gives away free bananas. I didn't ask why.
DW> You may not want to know... but hey, try asking anyway!
RC> This will likely elicit a mundane answer, but it never hurts to
RC> ask (does it? -- should you hear about a murder at USF's Tampa
RC> campus due to a question about bananas, please do re-evaluate).
The flea market may simply have a rule that you actually have to sell
SOMETHING at the stall, so he's "selling" bananas for the amazingly
low price of $0.00 to justify his existence there.
... The problem with kludges is that you have to go and do it right later.
---
* TLX v4.00 *Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Motion Passed
|Date: 29 Mar 97 11:12:47
EID:52e2 227d5980
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF God = Dan THEN God Glodbreg ELSE Motion Passed
-> On 21 Mar 97 14:19:45, God Glodbreg got back to Mary Smith
MS> HOW CAN YOU BOTH USE THE LORDS NAME IN VEIN?
GG> It's easy. Just change the "from" field.
GD> Wouldn't it be better to get her to learn how to use her
GD> FUCKING CAPS LOCK KEY first, God Glodberg?
She'd probably just express amazement at the fact that you said
a CapsLock key COULD fuck.
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ "Nurse, get me a braille Playboy!" -- Mike Nelson
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Fred Cherry Cocaine
|Date: 29 Mar 97 11:12:47
EID:aa33 227d5980
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Fredric = Rice THEN Christopher Hughes ELSE Fred Cherry Cocaine
ch> Cherry's been out to get his "sexual orientation" of
ch> "prostitute-seeker" recognised ever since, and calls
ch> Rod a homonazi and the head of an international pink
ch> conspiracy to get prostitution outlawed globally.
FR> "...international pink conspiracy?"
FR> What's the secret handsign look like?
Although as far as legalizing prostitution goes, one does
wonder why at least the US hasn't. I mean, what the government
makes legal, the government can tax.
... What's so great about God...everything he makes DIES! - George Carlin
---
* TLX v4.00 *Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: In the news
|Date: 29 Mar 97 11:12:47
EID:24e9 227d5980
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Fredric = Rice THEN David Rice ELSE In the news
FR> I fear that Christanic terrorists will be forcing the federal and
FR> State authorities to set aside as many civil rights to combat
FR> Christian terrorism as they did to wage their mock "war on drugs."
FR> The only problem is: Christanic terrorism is a justifiable reason to
FR> suspend everyone's civil rights.
Terrorism, period, is enough of a reason, but that's just MHO.
... "Terrorists were much more fun back then." -- Crow T. Robot
---
* TLX v4.00 *Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 31 Mar 97 12:57:19
EID:e057 227f6720
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Don = Martin THEN The Regulars ELSE Book
DM> What I propose is this: a book-length treatment
DM> exploring the differences above as reflected in this echo.
DM> It shall have chapters on all the leading topics here:
DM> abortion, homosexuality, feminine issues, incest, Pascal's
DM> Wager, inerrancy of the Bible, logical fallacies, etc. I
DM> shall be quoting all sorts of people, concealing the real
DM> identities of those from whom I have no explicit permission
DM> to use their real names. I would prefer, though, to have
DM> permissions and to use genuine identifications, particularly
DM> of the good stuff.
DM> As I get it together, I shall post pieces of it here for
DM> comments, corrections, suggestions, additions, etc.
DM> Comments?
I think it's a wonderful idea. HolySmoke teaches one a lot about the
way people on any side really think. I recall hearing somewhere that
email, and by extension, big, international e-forums like this one are
the closest thing yet to unfiltered communication between two minds: there
is no such thing as a subtle nuance here. The fact that HolySmoke further
encourages this by the lack of bias in moderating that Styx delivers only
helps things along.
Anyway, should the occasion arise, feel free to ID me properly.
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ Dopefish - Pagan god or Deliverer from Evil?
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
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|From: Damien Wellman
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 31 Mar 97 12:57:20
EID:7168 227f6720
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 8608
IF Doug = Schwandt THEN Dan Ceppa ELSE A Toast to Dracula.
DS> WHAT? You don't know about HARRY TRUMAN, the old guy that made
DS> NATIONAL HEADLINES when he refused to evacuate his home just before
DS> Mount St. Helens erupted? There was even a song written in his honor!
DS> Now, the question is this: did you KNOW the above information, or did
DS> you honestly (and mistakenly!!!) think that Laurie was actually
DS> tooling around with old "Give 'em hell Harry?"
No, but Laurie did think so. Laurie referred to PRESIDENT Harry Truman
being at Mt. St. Helens. David Rice, as well as others, have been berating
Laurie for this example of his idiocy.
---
þ TLX v4.00 þ "Klaatu...Beratis... " -- Ash
Email: damienw@juno.com
~~~ ReneWave v2.00 [NR]
---
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 01 Apr 97 17:03:46
EID:fc11 22818860
MSGID: 1:207/212 f4e9f9a6
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 17414acc
On (28 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to DAVID RICE...
JS> it is my opinion, David, that education increases pride and and self
JS> relieance, and pride insulates against God.
I am against anything that education insulates against.
If more knowledge leads us away from something, then it must not be true
in the first place.
Education in time and reality insulated me against Santa Claus, too.
... The name is Baud......, James Baud.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Baby burning in Hell
|Date: 01 Apr 97 17:05:57
EID:8a27 228188a0
MSGID: 1:207/212 c76a08ee
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 24f8c97f
On (28 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Lynda Bustilloz...
LB> How does Roe v Wade outlaw birth?
JS> No, it outlaws God-given life.
How?
... Always say "thank you" even if you don't mean it.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 17:06:34
EID:8f1e 228188c0
MSGID: 1:207/212 d99747ad
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 14322ce4
On (28 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Judith Bandsma...
JB> You either have to have the money or the insurance for a private
JB> doctor. Our insurance doesn't cover these kinds of tests. I was using
JB> the clinic in order to get it done for $85 instead of $350.
JS> Fortunately, throughout our employed careers, we have always had some
JS> sort of insurance, some better, some worse. I have never had dental,
JS> however, and yet get the stuff done that needs to be done and make
JS> regular payments on the bill if necessary. But I understand what you
JS> are saying.
Then perhaps you can understand that those protesting "abortion" are
also harrassing and interfering with legitimate business they wouldn't
stop if they knew. And of course it isn't their business what a person
is going *anywhere* to do, PARTICULARLY if s/he is clearly entering a
medical facility. Further, they interfere with legitimate business in
neighboring facilities.
Further, the same facilities also provide low cost birth control and
information about it, referrals to other providers if necessary. They
can also be good places for prenatal care and referrals to specialized
medical care needed in medically brittle pregnancies. You *want* these
things, Jim. Believe me.
I went 10 years without proper exams - and I have medical needs that
make them slightly more important than most women. Perhaps if the idiots
were not protesting I might have found such a facility to be suitable
and gotten the proper care.
And BTW people get dental work because pain results if they don't.
Usually if money is a problem they wait for pain.
... Real men don't beat women.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 01 Apr 97 17:13:51
EID:e33b 228189a0
MSGID: 1:207/212 c49a52c5
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 6c6bc6a8
On (28 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Martin Goldberg...
JS> b. there is no chance for the child in a day to day familial
JS> setting to be exposed to the 'norm' of society, i.e. a father
JS> _and_ a mother.
There is no evidence that this is necessary when a child's emotional and
physical needs are met and role models of both genders are available.
I'd rather a child's needs be met by whatever adults choose to do it
than stop them from doing it by worrying about the gender of those
adults and their sleeping arrangements. Opposite gender role models are
easily available - the child's biological parent, grandparents,
teachers, coaches, family friends . . . . This is particularly not a
problem when you know that gay individuals often have straight friends
of the opposite gender.
Funny thing about kids - they block out any perception of their parents'
sexuality. Even at 33, I am uncomfortable when I think about what my
parents' intimate relationship must be like. I strongly believe that
children raised in untraditional situations do the same thing. They
don't think about what goes on in the bedroom of their own home, even
when they are old enough to understand.
And what is so good about that norm, anyway?
... Do mimes listen to blank tapes?
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: Chri
|Date: 01 Apr 97 19:24:10
EID:e06e 22819b00
MSGID: 1:207/212 f6bdd160
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333ac4aa
On (27 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Karl Schneider...
KY> How about try it first and let us see for ourselves? Why fix a
KY> problem before it even has occurred?
Because you ignore one or more groups that have problems with religious
displays in and of themselves.
Those that don't adhere to any religion and those whose religion forbids
such displays or the celebration of such occasions.
... Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 01 Apr 97 19:25:45
EID:fc6e 22819b20
MSGID: 1:207/212 93e24d4f
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333aec0a
On (27 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Dan Ceppa...
DC> If that god of yours existed and flooded the world, he's
DC> unworthy of worship.
KY> Your creator wouldn't be worth you worshipping Him? That's like
KY> saying because one doesn't understand why his parents did something,
KY> he won't love them.
No, it's like cutting your parents off because they are mass murderers.
My husband has broken off relations with his father for less.
... "Are you suggesting that coconuts migrate?"
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 01 Apr 97 19:26:49
EID:9f34 22819b40
MSGID: 1:207/212 f41e80cc
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333aeca0
On (27 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Dan Ceppa...
KY> Pity you have such a hard time reading. I said that the girl
KY> shouldn't be executed, as 1) she may not know better, and 2) she was
KY> not the actual person doing the killing.
But no chance that you'd understand that the best choice would be the
abortion.
... "How sentimental." -- Magenta
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 19:27:55
EID:0836 22819b60
MSGID: 1:207/212 af475029
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333b20c0
On (28 Mar 97) Ken Young wrote to Fredric Rice...
KY> The majority of cases of child rape are examples of sodomy, which
KY> tells me that most are likely gay.
Nope - the perpetrators are straight. They just like little boys as well
as grown women.
... Gone Chopin. Made a Liszt. Bach in a minuet.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Karen Davis
|To: George Harper
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 01 Apr 97 05:11:06
EID:54ab 22812960
MSGID: 1:207/212 fc2e0e44
REPLY: 1:104/447 2b899308
On (27 Mar 97) George Harper wrote to Lou Dripkin...
GH> Then what is the purpose of the Judaic law that requires JEWS to
GH> marry only another JEW? I was under the impression that it was a
GH> BLOOD purity tactic. You can't have it both ways,
Such requirements do not demonstrate it is a race issue. Merely that the
group disapproves of marrying outsiders.
The Amish and Catholics have [or have had] similar prohibitions.
... I'm more humble than you are!!!
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Quentin Fai
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: Re: Arrogance
|Date: 01 Apr 97 18:07:38
EID:0e7b 228190e0
PID: SX 4.4P CA-12680
MSGID: 1:358/1 12b57b28
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d7660
TID: GE/32 1.2
+-------------------+
________ | You cant see him |
| | | from here, but I |
| &&&&&& | / | have Doug Schwandt|
l&&&&&&&&&l / | stuck to my ass. |
l& x x &l / +-------------------+
l( V )l /
jll( \___/ )lll
jlll (VVVVV)|lllj
\\\! jjj| |VVV| |jjjj !///
\&&&____________| / V \|______________&&&/
| \ *\ / \ /* /|
| \ \______/ \_______/ / |
|_____\_______ , , __________/___|
{ }
{ }
\ /
| |
|\ -|- /|
|/ \|
( )
{ (| |) }
{ | | }
{ U }
| . /|
{ | } |
|\ \ | |
| \ \| |
| U\* \ |
| U\ \ |
| UUU |
| |
| |
|________|
... God is watching me? What is he, a pervert?
--- RA2.5/FD2.20/GEcho
* Origin: The TERMINAL BBS (403)327-9731 Lethbridge,AB,Canada (1:358/1)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 30 Mar 97 21:24:00
EID:c2d0 227eab00
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d767c
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
JB>-=> Doug complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Karen <=-
JB> DS> I see religious freedom being violated. If the student wants to
pra
y,
JB> DS> s/he should be free to.
JB>And they can...they just can't force it on the rest or disrupt the class.
JB> DS> In a country where the majority supposedly rules, I see a gross
JB>Subject to constitutional rules protecting the RIGHTS of the minorities.
JB> DS> inconsistency here. If the Moslems wanted to erect a display for
JB> DS> Ramadan or one of their other holy days, it's not likely that the
JB> DS> Government would object. They couldn't. It'd be unconstitutional!
JB>If it was on government property, yes they could object. Doesn't matter
JB>WHAT the religion is, establishment is prohibited.
You must be referring to something other than what is meant by
establishment. The Constitution says that Congress shall make no law
RESPECTING one religion over the other. Also, that no State church
would be established. Allowing a group to erect a religious display on
gevernment property is NOT "establishment." It is "permission." The
group has already been established.
JB> DS> Once you allow one to do it, you have to allow ALL to do it.
JB>Exactly! Why do christians think that they shouldn't be included in that
JB>though?
In some situations, it is just too unwieldy.
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ You can lead a mind to facts but you can't make it think.
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 30 Mar 97 21:37:00
EID:c2d0 227eaca0
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d767d
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
JB>-=> Doug complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Karen <=-
JB> DS> such as the Church of England, as opposed to disallowing governmenta
l
JB> DS> participation in and SUPPORT OF religious freedoms in America.***
JB>You better go read some history, then. Most of the framers of the
JB>Constitution wanted to keep religion out of government as much (if not
JB>more) than they wanted to keep government out of religion.
I was quite the student of history when I was in school. Has it changed
any since I last read up?
JB> DS> If I understand correctly, the Ten Commandments are shared by Moslem
s,
JB> DS> Christians and Jews alike. They are NOT purely a "Christian thing."
JB>They aren't a 'Jewish' or 'Moslem' -thing-, either. Based on the code
of
JB>Hammurabi and older.
Well, fortunately there is MUCH MORE to the Jewish Law than the Ten
Commandments.
JB> DS> "Thou shalt not steal," as he is handed a sentence for two to five
JB> DS> years in prison for burglary.
JB>You are SO full of shit. A court is a secular institution. People know
wh
y
JB>they are in court. If they wanted a sermon, they'd be in church.
Maybe if they had gone to church, they wouldn't be in court!
JB>I watch you and others like you get all hyped up about neo-pagans and
wit
che
JB>and harmless games like D&D. And then you turn around and say...well,
if
JB>it was OUR magic, saying these words would eliminate everything we're
afr
aid
JB>of in this life.
I have never said that at ANY time, here or anywhere else. I would
consult with a few psychologists before I declared D&D harmless, though.
Information I have come across has stated that this game CAN cause
significant personality changes in some people.
JB> DS> Talk about unconstitutional agendas! Almost every time I turn
on t
he
JB> DS> 700 Club I hear of some school district osomewhere that has suspende
d
JB>Oh that's a real reliable source. Haven't you ever noticed that dear
Pat
JB>never bothers to mention where and why?
Oh, yes he has! So has Mark Sekulow, the chief Counsel for the American
Center for Law and Justice! They definitely name names!
JB> DS> students for the heinous crime of
bringing their Bibles to school, JB> DS> talking to other students about
Jesus, or even reading their Bibles JB> DS> when they have a free moment
apart from their schoolwork! Who cares JB> DS> about the Constitution?
You folks have the NEA!
JB>Sounds really bad when Pat tells it. But some of his claims have been
JB>investigated and found to be true...to a point. He doesn't bother to
tell
JB>you that the kid suspended for bringing the bible to school was suspended
JB>for hitting another student over the head with it in an effort to 'drive
JB>the devil' out of him. Or that the 'talking' to other students about
Jesu
s
JB>was done in the schoolyard at the top of the child's lungs and also
JB>consisted of calling the teachers of the school 'whores'. We know all
abo
ut
JB>Pat Robertson's claims...and what he manages to leave OUT.
And THAT sounds like cheap fabrication to me. If a student were to hit
another over the head with a book, he or she wouldn't wait until they
had a Bible in their hand to do it.
Kids are kids - immature, and emotional. A lot of times they get so
caught up in what they are doing that they lose control. Would you like
it any better if they were discussing another subject and the same
things happened?
JB> DS> student careers are
threatened if they participate. It could be a LOT JB> DS> worse! Instead
of holding hands and praying at the flagpole, they
JB>You talking about the kids who were suspended because they refused to
go
JB>to class? They were disciplined for refusal to go to their classrooms
at
JB>the start of the school day.
The "See you at the pole" prayer event is held well prior to the
beginning of the school day. More fabrication.
JB> DS> educators to rid the classrooms,
the schools and the community of ANY JB> DS> KIND of religious
upbringing.
JB>Religion belongs in the home, the church/synagog/temple. Not in the diver
se
JB>environment of a public school. There is little enough time now for
JB>the education of the young and you would further pollute that with
JB>superstition.
There is no superstition in the faith that I have. Religion belongs in
the heart of those who choose to follow it, wherever that person happens
to be.
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ Better few words to the point than many words to nothing.
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 21:10:00
EID:6354 227ea940
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d767e
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
KS>DS>DC> MG> Then why does the famous creationist Laurie Appleton say:
KS>DS>Now, the question is this: did you KNOW the above information, or
did
KS>DS>you honestly (and mistakenly!!!) think that Laurie was actually toolin
g
KS>DS>around with old "Give 'em hell Harry?"
KS>You stupid shithead, that is precisely what he CLAIMED.
I think I even read that post. I saw NOTHING of that type of claim in
there. It IS easy to misread, though, isn't it, Karl?
KS>-!-
KS> þ OLX 2.2 þ Race car spelled backwards is race car.
KS>-+- OLMS 2.53 UNREG
KS>---
KS> * Origin: CompuMate - Tulsa, OK (918)663-3454 (1:170/551)
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ Scattered showers, eh...? Noah
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 21:42:00
EID:89b4 227ead40
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d767f
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
JB>-=> Doug complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Dan <=-
JB> DS> you honestly (and mistakenly!!!) think that Laurie was actually
JB> DS> tooling around with old "Give 'em hell Harry?"
JB>Laurie SAID (which you would have seen if you'd bothered) that he toured
JB>Mt. St. Helens with FORMER PRESIDENT Harry Truman.
JB>When reminded of the fact that by the time that mountain was a danger,
JB>Truman (pres-type) had been dead for a decade, Laurums backed off.
Have you ever heard of "tongue in cheek?"
JB>We like to pick on liars, Doug. I guess that's why you're getting so
JB>much mail this go-round.
My host node only receives 300 messages a day from this echo. I
received 6 (2%). I guess the statistics are in my favor that I am not
a liar.
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ You can lead a mind to facts but you can't make it think.
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 30 Mar 97 21:08:00
EID:8d18 227ea900
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7680
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
KS>DS>In a country where the majority supposedly rules, I see a gross
KS>DS>inconsistency here. If the Moslems wanted to erect a display for
KS>DS>Ramadan or one of their other holy days, it's not likely that the
KS>DS>Government would object. They couldn't. It'd be unconstitutional!
KS>DS>Once you allow one to do it, you have to allow ALL to do it.
KS>Which is precisely the point. Muslims can and do erect displays
KS>on their own PRIVATE PROPERTY. It is ONLY the Kristians who demand
KS>access to PUBLIC property for their trappings.
KS>DS>***Interpretory note here: As I understand the "establishment Clause,
"
KS>DS>it was inserted to prevent the creation of STATE-RUN CHURCHES, such
as
KS>DS>the Church of England, as opposed to disallowing governmental
KS>DS>participation in and SUPPORT OF religious freedoms in America.***
KS>But *you* would have no problem if YOUR church were running the
KS>country under government sanction, would you?
Actually, I would. While it is not the function of the Church to run
the Government, it IS the function of the Government to insure that the
law of the people is follwed; and the law states that Congress will not
enact any law where a State church is created.
KS>DS>If I understand correctly, the Ten Commandments are shared by Moslems,
KS>DS>Christians and Jews alike. They are NOT purely a "Christian thing."
I
KS>For the most part, they are simply common-sense rules of civilized
KS>behavior. No religion is needed to validate them, other than the
KS>first one.
KS>DS>accused of) breaking one or more of them. Then, if found guilty
and
KS>DS>the sentence is handed down, it really hits home as the accused reads,
KS>DS>"Thou shalt not steal," as he is handed a sentence for two to five
KS>DS>years in prison for burglary.
KS>Big fucking duh.
KS>DS>I guess the way I feel about it is this: If you don't want to see
the
KS>DS>10 Commandments and be reminded of what you have been accused of,
don'
t
KS>DS>put yourself in the position of ever having to be in that courtroom
fo
r
KS>DS>trial.
KS>And what if someone is called for jury duty?
Jurors are required to listen to the facts in the case. They are not
required to stare at the wall behind the Judge.
KS>DS>Talk about
unconstitutional agendas! Almost every time I turn on the KS>DS>700 Club
I hear of some school district osomewhere that has suspended
KS>DS>students for the heinous crime of bringing their Bibles to school,
KS>DS>talking to other students about Jesus, or even reading their
Bibles when KS>DS>they have a free moment apart from their schoolwork!
Who cares about KS>DS>the Constitution? You folks have the NEA!
KS>And anyone who supports Pat ROBert$on is nothing more than a nonthinking
KS>moron.
Such wonderful words of wit! Nothing to say about anything other than
Pat Robertson?
KS>DS>worse! Instead of holding hands and praying at the
flagpole, they could KS>DS>be holding rocks, bottles and weapons to be
used in violent acts. As KS>DS>Christians, though, these students view
such acts as being repugnant.
KS>Bullshit. One of those very types was recently caught just up the
KS>road after having firebombed a clinic THREE TIMES.
One of WHICH types? WHAT KIND of clinic?
KS>DS>Johnny could be a Buddhist, a Baptist, a Taoist or a Jain. Just becau
se
KS>DS>he LEADS the class in prayer does NOT mean that the students of the
KS>DS>OTHER RELIGIONS present in the class could not silently or even at
low
KS>DS>volume pray as they need to. And, if you really want to get around
th
e
KS>You are a liar. You would have a fucking conniption if Santeria prayers
KS>and rituals were permitted in your kid's classroom.
I wouldn't like it, but if you open the door for one, it has to stay
open for all.
KS>DS>problem, there's always "sharing the load." ALL
students should be KS>DS>called upon to lead the class in prayer, a
different one every day.
KS>All forty five thousand? There would be no time for education. Which
KS>would probably suit you just fine.
There is not a school in the country with 45,000 students, except maybe
for LARGE universities! Every school has classrooms, and every
classroom has students in attendance at some point in the day. If
class size averages 30 students, each student in each class could lead
the class in prayer once a day and there would actually be time left for
learning! And, at six weeks (roughly), the cycle will repeat itself.
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ "There is a chance of rain in the forecast..." (Noah)
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:24:00
EID:abad 227ebb00
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7681
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
JB>-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith
<=
-
JB> GH> Now...AGAIN...I challenge you to prove that Homosexuality is the
JB> GH> result of any genetic structure or other physical causal factors...I
f
JB>Stuff your fucking CHALLENGES up your ass...along side your head...and
Now THERE'S some wonderfully estute and mature advice!
JB>go start reading some of the medical literature. Or even some of the
JB>recent posts in this echo.
All the quackery, fakery and hucksterism passed off as fact in HERE?
SURELY you jest!
JB>Rod Swift has posted the peer-reviewed journal articles on this subject
JB>quite recently. (Since you have been blathering here) Go find them and
JB>read them.
JB>Since sexual orientation is a choice, when did YOU choose which way you
JB>would go...and why?
It's the RIGHT thing to do!
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ You can lead a mind to facts but you can't make it think.
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 30 Mar 97 21:17:00
EID:c2d0 227eaa20
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7682
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
JB>-=> Doug complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Karen <=-
JB> DS> But the MEMBERS of that church pay taxes for the fire protection
and
JB> DS> the other services that the community affords to its residents.
JB>For their own homes (if they own them), yes. Two blocks from me is the
JB>Dorchester-Waylyn Baptist Church...huge building, 2 outbuildings. They
JB>own the majority of houses in the adjoining 2 blocks. These they 'allow'
JB>members of the church to live in. (For a 'donation' of up to $450 per
mon
th)
JB>NONE of this property is taxed. *I* am paying for their fire protection,
JB>police protection, garbage pickup, etc.
There are other ways to fund services than property taxes. This is
generally the preferred way, but unless you live in an exceedingly small
town where the entire membership of ONE CHURCH would adversely affect
the economy, it would not matter a hill of beans. While you are
bellyaching about the members of ONE CHURCH, Joe Entrepreneur is in his
office figuring how he can take more off of his already light tax bill
next year!
JB>Let them pay the taxes on the property, the same as the rest of us, and
JB>quit using the fiction of a 'donation' when what they are doing is making
JB>money off the RENTAL of those houses (the church does not maintain them
JB>at all, even though they own them...that is up to the person living there
)
JB>and I might be more willing to quit bitching about them.
And I could say the same thing about those who donate out of date
clothing, broken furniture, non-working furniture and the like to
charitable organizations for income tax breaks.
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ Better few words to the point than many words to nothing.
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:28:00
EID:aa6c 227ebb80
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7683
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
JB>-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to George
<=
JB> KW> The ark was built out of rail road ties!!!
And
JB>And microwaved in soy sauce.
Ah, yes! Those world-famous soy sauce soaked splinters brought to us by
those who sought to publicly discredit ICR.
JB> KW> they're going to build a four lane high way up to it, with a look
ou
t
JB> KW> yet!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!
JB>It's already been built, Katherine. Didn't you know that. It even extends
JB>a few miles beyond the top of the mountain.
Brought to you by Mr. Asholian, the man with the soy sauce soaked
samples.
JB>... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
JB>--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
JB> * Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ Scattered showers, eh...? Noah
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 1/2
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:43:00
EID:2f6e 227f8d60
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7684
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
KD>On (26 Mar 97) Doug Schwandt wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> DS> KD>Non establishment plus freedom of religion = separation of church
KD> DS> and KD>state. It's that simple. Within the lifetime of the authors
t
he
KD> DS> phrase KD>was being used, so it is irrelevant that they did not
happ
en
KD> DS> to choose KD>those words for the Constitution.
KD> DS> Oh, I see... I guess that means that those words were not EXPLICIT
LY
KD> DS> used and that we are all victims of INTERPRETATION? Relevance has
KD> DS> nothing to do with it. The drafters of the Constitution did not
com
e
KD> DS> equipped with crystal balls so that they may have been able to see
KD> DS> EXACTLY how their words would be perverted over the years.
KD>Not VICTIMS, beneficiaries of an interpretation supported even by the
KD>men who wrote it. As well as the good sense of men using the
KD>Constitution, decisions based on the constitution, and just general
KD>common sense in the past 200 years.
KD> DS> KD>No. I see government being prevented from encouraging religion.
KD> DS> I see religious freedom being violated. If the student wants to
pra
y,
KD> DS> s/he should be free to.
KD>And they are. The limits start in when the purpose of the school is
KD>disrupted.
KD> DS> In a country where the majority supposedly rules, I see a gross
KD> DS> inconsistency here. If the Moslems wanted to erect a display for
KD> DS> Ramadan or one of their other holy days, it's not likely that the
KD> DS> Government would object. They couldn't. It'd be unconstitutional!
KD> DS> Once you allow one to do it, you have to allow ALL to do it.
KD>Moslems can erect any display they like on private property. Same with
KD>Christians, Jews, and atheists. They may not use public land to create
KD>the feeling of public support for their religion.
KD>I drive through cities I know well, and pass the city hall. Often less
KD>than 2 blocks from there is some church, with plenty of land - even
KD>better, at times - for a display of the type that has been controversial
KD>lately.
KD> DS> KD>Student led prayer in schools - I'm a teacher and
KD> DS> know a bit more about KD>classroom authority and leading things
than
KD> DS> you might. If I tell Johnny KD>he can lead the class in prayer,
how
is
KD> DS> that different from my leading KD>it?
KD> DS> You, as a representative of the "State," CANNOT lead the class in
KD> DS> prayer without giving the appearance of the State offering religious
KD> DS> support.
KD>Correct - nor can I use my authority to establish the same practice by
KD>simply handing off the leadership to a child.
KD>Here's an excellent analogy. The practice of the flag salute is fully
KD>established in my classroom. To the extent that at the appropriate point
KD>in the routine, all I say is the flag monitor's name. S/he leads the
KD>flag salute without my saying a further word unless discipline is
KD>required. Have I completely relinquished my authority, there? Or am I
KD>simply establishing a practice with MY authority, and *allowing*
KD>children to lead it for a variety of reasons?
KD> DS> ***Interpretory note here: As I understand the "establishment
KD> DS> Clause," it was inserted to prevent the creation of STATE-RUN
KD> DS> CHURCHES, such as
KD> DS> the Church of England, as opposed to disallowing governmental
KD> DS> participation in and SUPPORT OF religious freedoms in America.***
KD>Governmental participation in religion only leads to nasty things. The
KD>only way to protect everyone's religious freedom is to insist on that
KD>wall of separation.
KD> DS> If I understand correctly, the Ten Commandments are shared by Moslem
s,
KD> DS> Christians and Jews alike. They are NOT purely a "Christian thing."
KD> DS> I can see the 10 Commandments having a negative effect in the
KD> DS> courtroom
KD> DS> only because the accused may have to be reminded of his (having
been
KD> DS> accused of) breaking one or more of them. Then, if found guilty
an
d
KD> DS> the sentence is handed down, it really hits home as the accused
read
s,
KD> DS> "Thou shalt not steal," as he is handed a sentence for two to five
KD> DS> years in prison for burglary.
KD>So tell me how many sentences are handed down for "not having any other
KD>god before me."
KD> DS> I guess the way I feel about it is this: If you don't want to see
t
he
KD> DS> 10 Commandments and be reminded of what you have been accused of,
KD> DS> don't put yourself in the position of ever having to be in that
KD> DS> courtroom for trial.
KD>Oh, I see. So how many of those 10 commandments can you be tried in an
KD>American court for breaking?
KD> DS> Excuse me? This is EXACTLY what LOCAL GOVERNMENT has done in recen
t
KD> DS> years! BECAUSE the Constitution says that, "Congress shall make
no
KD> DS> law...," LOCAL GOVERNMENT steps right into the loophole and does
it!
KD> DS> Talk about unconstitutional agendas! Almost every time I turn
on t
he
KD> DS> 700 Club I hear of some school district osomewhere that has suspende
d
KD> DS> students for the heinous crime of bringing their Bibles to school,
KD> DS> talking to other students about Jesus, or even reading their Bibles
KD> DS> when they have a free moment apart from their schoolwork! Who cares
KD> DS> about
KD> DS> the Constitution? You folks have the NEA!
KD>Every time you turn on the 700 club, you hear propaganda. Christians
KD>WANT to sound like they're being persecuted.
KD>First, I want you to FULLY DOCUMENT one of those cases. I want the
KD>school, city, child's name, teacher's name, and the outcome of the case.
KD>You see, most of those 700 Club stories are 1. outright lies 2. cases
KD>where the school actually had legitimate problems with the child [where
KD>religious behavior had become a disciplinary issue because it was
KD>interfering with education - such as harrassment] - in which you're not
KD>getting the true story on the 700 Club - or 3. A VERY rare case
KD>[maybe 2 a year] of a mistake in judgement.
KD>Consider that there are MORE violations of the freedoms of NON
KD>Christians, in every community or state that still forces them to pray.
KD>Consider that the majority of teachers - in my experience and any
KD>statistics I have ever seen - are Christian, even often devoutly so.
You
KD>will find that most cases under #3 are persecution of a child of one
KD>Christian sect by a teacher of another. I am an agnostic. I do not
KD>adhere to any religion. But *I* am sought out - not fellow devout
KD>Christians - as an authority on the needs of Jehovah's Witness children
KD>at my school. Because I took the trouble to learn. I have known several
KD>teachers - DEVOUT CHRISTIANS - who are fed up with having to accomodate
KD>these children.
KD>Why don't you come into my classroom and ask my kids whether they feel
KD>they are free to believe as they like.
KD> DS> Every year across the country, a national student prayer meeting
(Se
e
KD> DS> You at the Pole) is met with heated resistance from school district
KD> DS> leaders. The American Center for Law and Justice (the Christian
KD> DS> equivalent of the ACLU) is called upon to fight for students whose
KD> DS> student careers are threatened if they participate. It could be
a L
OT
KD> DS> worse! Instead of holding hands and praying at the flagpole, they
KD> DS> could be holding rocks, bottles and weapons to be used in violent
KD> DS> acts. As
KD> DS> Christians, though, these students view such acts as being repugnant
.
>>> Continued to next message
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ You can lead a mind to facts but you can't make it think.
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 2/2
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:43:00
EID:2f9e 227f8d60
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7685
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
>>> Continued from previous message
KD>If student careers are threatened if they participate, it is also likely
KD>that they would be threatened if they didn't. Much better to leave the
KD>whole practice AT HOME and AT CHURCH. Keep the whole mess out of school.
KD>... Try being polite to your enemies ... drives `em nuts!
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ You can lead a mind to facts but you can't make it think.
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 283/120 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 1/2
|Date: 31 Mar 97 18:15:00
EID:2f6e 227f91e0
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7686
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
KD>On (26 Mar 97) Doug Schwandt wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> DS> Oh, I see... I guess that means that those words were not EXPLICIT
LY
KD> DS> used and that we are all victims of INTERPRETATION? Relevance has
KD> DS> nothing to do with it. The drafters of the Constitution did not
com
e
KD> DS> equipped with crystal balls so that they may have been able to see
KD> DS> EXACTLY how their words would be perverted over the years.
KD>Not VICTIMS, beneficiaries of an interpretation supported even by the
KD>men who wrote it. As well as the good sense of men using the
KD>Constitution, decisions based on the constitution, and just general
KD>common sense in the past 200 years.
Again, an interpretational difference!
KD> DS> KD>No. I see government being prevented from encouraging religion.
KD> DS> I see religious freedom being violated. If the student wants to
pra
y,
KD> DS> s/he should be free to.
KD>And they are. The limits start in when the purpose of the school is
KD>disrupted.
And just HOW is the purpose of school disrupted by starting the day with
prayer? (THIS ought to be good...)
KD> DS> In a country where the majority supposedly rules, I see
a gross KD> DS> inconsistency here. If the Moslems wanted to erect a
display for KD> DS> Ramadan or one of their other holy days, it's not
likely that the KD> DS> Government would object. They couldn't. It'd
be unconstitutional! KD> DS> Once you allow one to do it, you have to
allow ALL to do it.
KD>Moslems can erect any display they like on private property. Same with
KD>Christians, Jews, and atheists. They may not use public land to create
KD>the feeling of public support for their religion.
The PUBLIC is not the GOVERNMENT.
KD>I drive through cities I know well, and pass the city hall. Often less
KD>than 2 blocks from there is some church, with plenty of land - even
KD>better, at times - for a display of the type that has been controversial
KD>lately.
KD> DS> KD>Student led prayer in schools - I'm a teacher and
KD> DS> know a bit more about KD>classroom authority and leading things
than
KD> DS> you might. If I tell Johnny KD>he can lead the class in prayer,
how
is
KD> DS> that different from my leading KD>it?
KD> DS> You, as a representative of the "State," CANNOT lead the class in
KD> DS> prayer without giving the appearance of the State offering religious
KD> DS> support.
KD>Correct - nor can I use my authority to establish the same practice by
KD>simply handing off the leadership to a child.
The practice would not be "established." It would be ALLOWED. The
practice has already BEEn established. It has been SUSPENDED for quite
a while, though.
KD>Here's an excellent analogy. The practice of the flag salute is fully
KD>established in my classroom. To the extent that at the appropriate point
KD>in the routine, all I say is the flag monitor's name. S/he leads the
KD>flag salute without my saying a further word unless discipline is
KD>required. Have I completely relinquished my authority, there? Or am I
KD>simply establishing a practice with MY authority, and *allowing*
KD>children to lead it for a variety of reasons?
OK, what is the difference between ALLOWING the children to to practice
the flag salute and ALLOWING them to pray?
KD> DS> ***Interpretory note here: As I understand the "establishment
KD> DS> Clause," it was inserted to prevent the creation of STATE-RUN
KD> DS> CHURCHES, such as
KD> DS> the Church of England, as opposed to disallowing governmental
KD> DS> participation in and SUPPORT OF religious freedoms in America.***
KD>Governmental participation in religion only leads to nasty things. The
KD>only way to protect everyone's religious freedom is to insist on that
KD>wall of separation.
The government is as free as anyone else to PARTICIPATE as much as it
wants! As long as it does not try to take over, things will be just
fine. THAT is what the 1st Amendment is for!
KD> DS> If I understand correctly, the Ten Commandments are
shared by Moslems, KD> DS> Christians and Jews alike. They are NOT
purely a "Christian thing." KD> DS> I can see the 10 Commandments having
a negative effect in the KD> DS> courtroom KD> DS> only because the
accused may have to be reminded of his (having been KD> DS> accused of)
breaking one or more of them. Then, if found guilty and KD> DS> the
sentence is handed down, it really hits home as the accused reads, KD>
DS> "Thou shalt not steal," as he is handed a sentence for two to five
KD> DS> years in prison for burglary.
KD>So tell me how many sentences are handed down for "not having any other
KD>god before me."
That depends upon a whole host of variables. Money can be a god, as can
your computer, TV or stereo. If you are so disirous of those things
that you steal them, it is possible that you could also be sentenced for
"having other gods before God."
KD> DS> I guess the way I feel about it is this: If you
don't want to see the KD> DS> 10 Commandments and be reminded of what
you have been accused of, KD> DS> don't put yourself in the position of
ever having to be in that KD> DS> courtroom for trial.
KD>Oh, I see. So how many of those 10 commandments can you be tried in an
KD>American court for breaking?
In many locations, five of them.
KD> DS> Excuse me? This is EXACTLY what LOCAL GOVERNMENT has done in recen
t
KD> DS> years! BECAUSE the Constitution says that, "Congress shall make
no
KD> DS> law...," LOCAL GOVERNMENT steps right into the loophole and does
it!
KD> DS> Talk about unconstitutional agendas! Almost every time I turn
on t
he
KD> DS> 700 Club I hear of some school district osomewhere that has suspende
d
KD> DS> students for the heinous crime of bringing their Bibles to school,
KD> DS> talking to other students about Jesus, or even reading their Bibles
KD> DS> when they have a free moment apart from their schoolwork! Who cares
KD> DS> about
KD> DS> the Constitution? You folks have the NEA!
KD>Every time you turn on the 700 club, you hear propaganda. Christians
KD>WANT to sound like they're being persecuted.
And every time I hear from educators about what is going on in the
classroom, I also hear propaganda. Teachers waht to make the parents
think that theirs is a tough lot. It's a lot easier for teachers now
than when I was in school. American education is in "dumbing down" mode
now.
>>> Continued to next message
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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PATH: 283/120 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 2/2
|Date: 31 Mar 97 18:15:00
EID:2f9e 227f91e0
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7687
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
>>> Continued from previous message
KD>First, I want you to FULLY
DOCUMENT one of those cases. I want the KD>school, city, child's name,
teacher's name, and the outcome of the case. KD>You see, most of those
700 Club stories are 1. outright lies 2. cases KD>where the school
actually had legitimate problems with the child [where KD>religious
behavior had become a disciplinary issue because it was KD>interfering
with education - such as harrassment] - in which you're not KD>getting
the true story on the 700 Club - or 3. A VERY rare case KD>[maybe 2 a
year] of a mistake in judgement.
I'll do that if you will do this: solicit the 700 Club for a case such
as above and document that what YOU have said about it is true.
KD>Consider that there are MORE violations of the freedoms of NON
KD>Christians, in every community or state that still forces them to
pray.
Yeah, right. And smokers are oppressed, and habitual drunk drivers
can't understand why their licenses are taken away.
Consider this: If the freedoms of CHRISTIANS can be taken away, nobody
is safe. Religious thought and practice are STILL PROTECTED by the
Constitution, even though local governments have found ways around it.
KD>Consider that the majority of teachers - in my experience and any
KD>statistics I have ever seen - are Christian, even often devoutly so.
You
Many are called, but few are chosen. Fewer still practice.
KD>will find that most cases under #3 are persecution of a child of one
KD>Christian sect by a teacher of another. I am an agnostic. I do not
KD>adhere to any religion. But *I* am sought out - not fellow devout
KD>Christians - as an authority on the needs of Jehovah's Witness children
KD>at my school. Because I took the trouble to learn. I have known several
KD>teachers - DEVOUT CHRISTIANS - who are fed up with having to accomodate
KD>these children.
So you should receive...WHAT?
KD>Why don't you come into my classroom and ask my kids whether they feel
KD>they are free to believe as they like.
I could arrange for the time off from work, that is no problem. Travel
to and from, however, is. What grade?
KD> DS> Every year across the country, a national student prayer meeting
(Se
e
KD> DS> You at the Pole) is met with heated resistance from school district
KD> DS> leaders. The American Center for Law and Justice (the Christian
KD> DS> equivalent of the ACLU) is called upon to fight for students whose
KD> DS> student careers are threatened if they participate. It could be
a L
OT
KD> DS> worse! Instead of holding hands and praying at the flagpole, they
KD> DS> could be holding rocks, bottles and weapons to be used in violent
KD> DS> acts. As
KD> DS> Christians, though, these students view such acts as being repugnant
.
KD>If student careers are threatened if they participate, it is also likely
KD>that they would be threatened if they didn't. Much better to leave the
KD>whole practice AT HOME and AT CHURCH. Keep the whole mess out of school.
You seem to forget that for a LOT LONGER than the current practice has
existed, RELIGIOUS LIFE was a VERY INTEGRAL PART of American education!
In fact, American Education was BASED ON THE BIBLE!
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:40:00
EID:edd4 227f8d00
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7688
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
KD>On (26 Mar 97) Doug Schwandt wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> DS> But the MEMBERS of that church pay taxes for the fire protection
and
KD> DS> the other services that the community affords to its residents.
KD> DS> Conversely, if your house caught fire, would you expect the fire
KD> DS> department to
KD> DS> refuse to come extinguish the fire because you belong to the First
KD> DS> Baptist Church? Isn't your money just as green as a resident in
you
r
KD> DS> community as it is if you are a church member?
KD>The members of that church pay taxes relative to the values of their
own
KD>homes. Not relative to the value of the church.
KD>I'm not supporting taxing churches [though I know some here who do]
KD>becuase the way it is seems to me to be the lesser of 2 evils. But your
KD>argument doesn't wash, either. Under your logic, the same number of
KD>people could build anything they wanted as a common use building and
say
KD>that it is entitled to free fire and police protection because they pay
KD>taxes.
Every governmental entity that collects taxes is happy to give
exemptions for whatever reason, since they know that the exemption will
affect a miniscule amount of the population and that they can recoup
their losses another way.
KD> DS> Actually, Jesus told His Disciples to be "in the world, but not
OF t
he
KD> DS> world." And, He called the power people of His day some very
KD> DS> non-flattering names!
KD>Exactly, so why are Christonazis trying to gain power in "His" name?
CHRISTONAZIS? That's where I draw the line here. Yet another fine
misrepresentation. I almost called you a name closely related to what
you used above, but in a concerted effort to demonstrate that my
maturity and respect for other people are on a much higher plane than
yours, I thought better of it.
---
þ OLX 2.2 TD þ You can lead a mind to facts but you can't make it think.
--- ViaMAIL!/SL v1.20
* Origin: Lighthouse BBS Cedar Rapids, IA (1:283/120)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
SEEN-BY: 124/1208 2342 5125 8001 9000 9005 130/1 1008 133/2 143/1 147/34
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SEEN-BY: 275/429 280/1 169 282/1 62 283/120 284/29 290/14 300/603 310/666
SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
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PATH: 283/120 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Doug Schwandt
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:32:00
EID:2ac8 227f8c00
MSGID: 1:283/120.0 219d7689
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.20 95-0014
MB>On (26 Mar 97) Doug Schwandt babbled to Karen Davis...
MB> DS> KD> Non establishment plus freedom of religion = separation
MB> DS> KD> of church and state. It's that simple. Within the
MB> DS> KD> lifetime of the authors the phrase KD>was being used, so
MB> DS> KD> it is irrelevant that they did not happen to choose
MB> DS> KD> KD>those words for the Constitution.
MB> DS> Oh, I see... I guess that means that those words were not
MB> DS> EXPLICITLY used and that we are all victims of
MB> DS> INTERPRETATION? Relevance has nothing to do with it. The
MB> DS> drafters of the Constitution did not come equipped with
MB> DS> crystal balls so that they may have been able to see EXACTLY
MB> DS> how their words would be perverted over the years.
MB>Madison, who drafted the Constitution, used those exact words in
MB>private co