God Damned Fundies!
|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: DAVID RICE
|Sub: Staal wants to know.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:59:06
EID:8a93 2281af60
MSGID: 1:124/9005 33418548
PID: GEDW32 3.0.a4 261LM7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, DAVID!
Dies solis March 30 1997, Dixit DAVID RICE ad DAN CEPPA:
DC>> Your next checkup is long over due. Go see Nurse Ratchet
DC>> for your lobotomy.
DR> LOL!
I'd pay good money to watch Staal yank the water fountain from the floor.
"We want to watch the fucking World Series!"
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Quentin Fai
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:01:22
EID:5149 2281b020
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
Salue, Quentin!
Martis dies April 01 1997, Dixit George Harper ad Quentin Fai:
GH> that, I WILL go to Heaven. My God doesn't care if there are any other
GH> gods, and won't deny me my reward because one of those others fools
enough
GH> people to be selected the true god by popular vote...My God doesn't
hold
GH> office by election...His is a lifetime position, and all the other gods
GH> give homage to Him.
Damn, I wish Steve Rose was around to sing his "My god's better than your
god" song.
You can't pay for entertainment this good. The smug posturing is something
right out of Saturday Night Live or SCTV.
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Colorado School of Mines
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:04:16
EID:5eb3 2281b080
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Salue, Don!
Martis dies April 01 1997, Dixit Don Martin ad George Harper:
DM> So, George, the man asks for details. Got any? The place
DM> where you heard this (one begins to suspect the Weekly World
DM> News) might be a start, or the name of the researcher who
Oh, oh! I know!
Uh, was it "From a minister on a Florida radio station?" Or was it "From
a guy who was arrested for praying in a restaurant?"
--- GoldED 3.00.Alpha4+ - Spank Our Wombats!
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Freedom of choice
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:23:20
EID:e218 227e62e0
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> Yeah, right, Ken. What colour is the sky in your world?
> Green!!!
> Purple!!!
Hey, if getting power away from the religious reich was as easy as pulling
tokens out of a bucket, I'd be more than willing to give it a shot.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Fundyskool logic
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:24:24
EID:7743 227e6300
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> I got a better one for you. Rod's and my friends down in Houston
CH>> are a married couple called "Pat" and "Dale."
> Shhh. You will awake the Houstonians :)
Oh! Sorry.. *tiptoes around the sleeping Houstonians, whose favourite
hockey team only seems to lose when cubby and bear are in the stands
cheering for the other side...*
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: hateful
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:32:12
EID:133d 227e6400
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>> I disagree. It is possible to be a bigot without having religious
>> dogmatism to assist to prop up such bigotry.
CH>> It's possible, but again, it falls to utter irrationality. The closest
CH>> thing I've ever heard to a non-religiously based bias against
CH>> homosexuality was its "lack of aesthetic appeal," whatever the hell
CH>> that might be.
> Many non-Christians hate homosexuality. They just find it disgusting.
> No religious basis for it, but rather, moral basis for it. One can
> have the same general morals without being a Christian.
Well, for starters, here's another for the Quote File, Brother Fredric.
"One can have the same general morals without being a Christian." Ken Young.
On to the meat of the matter. "Finding something disgusting" is not the
same as having a moral opposition to it. I find taking drugs disgusting,
but I'm not morally opposed to others doing so. Nor do I hate those who
do. I just don't get around them when their high. There's a vast difference
between a moral value and a personal taste. Unless you're a subjectivist,
in which case you wouldn't be wasting my time trying to argue God all over
the place because you'd fully accept that there's no such thing as a
standard of moral value.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Lynda Bustilloz
|Sub: Re: ARROGANCE
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:34:22
EID:edb9 227e6440
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> George and Christopher were killing time yakking about ARROGANCE:
CH>> At that point, I fully expect to be cast into Hell, whereupon I think
CH>> that I'll probably be recruited for their computing staff. Of course,
CH>> punch cards and COBOL for eternity would be a pain in the ass, but
CH>> then, this IS Hell, isn't it?
> No, love, YOUR personal hell will involve being stuck in IRC chat
with
> a bunch of people trying out mIRC COLORS...and you on a UNIX
> machine....
But, Lynda dear, I can still use /ignore in IRCII. :) No.. if hell had a
UNIX box, it wouldn't be hell.
"In the Beginning, God created Dennis. Dennis was unimpressed with God,
so God made Brian. Brian was bored with God, so Brian and Dennis made
UNIX, and God saw that it was good. But then God became jealous, because
UNIX was cooler than God, so God made Bill..."
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:35:52
EID:a107 227e6460
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> Right now, we don't have the same rights that heterosexuals do. We
can
CH>> be, and have been, denied the right to seek redress of damages when
CH>> our loved ones die. We've been denied custody of our partner's
CH>> children.
CH>> I personally have been denied access to my husband's bedside when he
CH>> was in the hospital.
> I think there's a cure for that. At least, my sister and Chris
> have found one that works in Oregon, at least. They signed
> Powers of Attorney for Health Care, each giving the other the
> power of attorney over all health decisions when they are
> hospitalized. Now there is no way anybody can keep them from
> each other when they are hospitalized, as they are the ones
> making the medical decisions.
That would be a cure for one problem, in one state, but if we moved,
we'd have to fill out a new one, for every different state. And not
every state provides that option. Also, that's only one of the 1,049
rights that mixed-sex marriages have that same-sex marriages can't
get.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Re: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:39:46
EID:8b41 227e64e0
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> No one formed it. Cells didn't spontaneously crop up out
CH>> of nowhere. Scientists have demonstrated that if you expose
CH>> an organic "soup" of methane, carbon, oxygen and water to
CH>> electricity, you will get spontaneous formations of
CH>> _amino_acid_ block.
> You show all the signs of being a victim of indoctrination
> and of outrageous HALF-TRUTHS! There WERE many things formed
> in those "scientific" experiments including traces of some
> Amino Acids. However NONE of the amino acids were the right
> sorts required for life.
None? You just said below that some did form. Contradiction.
> What you have NOT been told, apparently, it that all such
> experiments produce a mixture of left-handed and
> right-handed Amino acids, as do ALL natural chemical
> reactions, but all life as we know it has only the
> LEFT-HANDED version of these amino acids and cannot possibly
> work with even a TRACE of the right-handed form.
Not contested; I'm not a biologist.
> Science knows of NO way that any natural chemical reaction
> could produce 100% purified forms of these chemicals and
> thus scientists have only "demonstrated" that the origin of
> life cannot POSSIBLY have occured by NATURAL processes!
Scientists have certainly demonstrated its possibility. Did or did
not left-handed amino acids form in such reactions?
Probability is another issue, but look at the time scale that we
have to work with.
CH>> Amino acids are, if you don't remember, the building
CH>> blocks of proteins.
> In terms of the above that is a glorious half-truth which
> is effectively a blatant mis-truth! What we now know about
> proteins is not only that they MUST be of 100% left handed
> amino acids, but they use ONLY a special and distinct number
> of these amino acids - TWENTY in all and NO other.
If I were feeling bored, I could get my mother to break out one of
her texts and look them up for me. I'm not quite feeling that bored
yet, but yes you are correct, though I wonder if it's exactly 20.
I'll grant, however, that it's some finite number.
> Further more you were ENTITLED to have been told - but
> apparently were NOT told - that these twenty amino acids need
> to be assembled in a specific order to make useful proteins.
> This too is utterly impossible to occur in "nature" and
> again shows that all life was a most carefully DESIGNED
> machine!
Impossible? Or merely improbable. You confuse the two. Try again,
Laurie.
And next time, don't shout at me. I feel like I'm being lectured by
William Shatner.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Re: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:44:32
EID:8b41 227e6580
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
CH>> Proteins are, if you don't
CH>> remember, one of the fundamental building blocks in cell
CH>> structure.
> Again a typical half-truth and gross simplification that
> students are given and thereby mislead and misinformed!
> There are thousands of DIFFERENT proteins in living things
> and each one is specific and precise - just the same as in
> any complex machine, if it is going to work at all.
Not being contested. There are thousands of different proteins
in living things.
CH>> There's no need for a supreme being anywhere in the
CH>> equation.
> If you were given any sensible and honest understanding
> of the facts, you would see that INTELLIGENT DESIGN (by what
> ever Designer you like to suggest) is the one major
> discovery that science has made in this matter. At every
> stage in the origin of life it is abundantly clear that
> great expertise and scientific understanding and technology
> is paramount and essential.
Laurie, you've granted the possibility of its occurance. What you're
ignoring is its probability. However, the instant you have a self-
replicating system, the probablity of replication goes way up. So,
once you have one, the rest is, as they say, child's play. Or perhaps
it took 10. Or a hundred. Or a billion. But it took some finite number
of occurances before a self-replicating model appeared, and at that
point everything was set. No intelligent designer is needed anywhere
in the system.
> The more we research this matter the more it demonstrates
> that a natural origin of life it utterly impossible. As far
> back as 1955 this was thought to be the case, but since then
> atheist scientists have desperately and unsuccessfully
> searched for a natural explanation, but have now admitted
> that their quest looks hopeless! i.e.;
Uh, if the experiment can be successfully repeated, then doesn't
that show that it is possible, however improbable? And since it
did happen, isn't the probability rather moot? All that has to
happen is that enough of the right type get created at once. Any
byproducts or extraneous compounds created in the process aren't
going to do anything unless their directly detrimental to the system
itself.
> 'A general review of prebiological evolutionary theories
> in 1988 by Klaus Dose concluded that "At present all
> discussions on prinicipal theories and experiments in the
> field either end in stalemate or in a confession of
> ignorance." Gerald Joyce's 1989 review article ended with
> the somber observation that origin of life researchers have
> grown accustomed to a "lack of relevant experimental data"
> and a high level of frustration.'
> (Darwin on Trial, Phillip E. Johnson, 1991. page.107.)
Would you please cite the credentials of Dose, Joyce, and Johnson?
> A 1996 book entitled; Darwin's Black Box, by Michael J.
> Behe, confirms this same picture. The rational explanation
> of life is that it necessarily requires an Intelligent
> Designer! THAT is what science has really found! Those who
> try to agrue otherwise are simply showing that they have
> been misled and poorly informed!
Would you please cite the credentials of Behe?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Re: Missing Links.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:54:22
EID:cacb 227e66c0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
>> "In the fossil record, missing links are the rule: ....The
>> more scientists have searched for the transitional forms that
>> lie between species, the more they have been frustrated."
>> (Newsweek, 3rd. November, 1980, p. 54)
CH>> Any creature with a sufficient number of differences
CH>> from a given species is labeled as a different species.
> Are you suggesting that even when these two "different
> species" can interbreed and produce fertile offspring they
> are STILL called different species? If that is the case
> then would you tell me how many "species" of DOGS that we
> know of?
That isn't what I said. Read it again, Laurie. "Any creature with a
sufficient number of differences from a given species is labeled as
a different species." There is, so far as I know, only one species
of "dog" (canus domesticus). Everything under that is too close to
be called a separate species. And dogs and wolves are still cofertile
and can interbreed, producing fertile offspring, yet dogs and wolves
are of two different species (canus domesticus, canis lupus). Same
with coyotes (canus latrans). Any two creatures within the same genus
are going to be fertile with each other (so far as I know, and I'm
not a biologist so I may be vastly mistaken here), though whether
or not the offspring is fertile depends on the degree of distance
between the species of the parents.
CH>> There's no such thing as a "transitional form" because
CH>> evolutionary theory concerns itself with discrete steps. The
CH>> continuous steps between those discrete points are all
CH>> counted as microevolutionary advancements, and don't get
CH>> counted as new species.
> Perhaps you are trying to tell me that this view has
> RECENTLY replaced that view that was believed and taught for
> over 120 years. Is that what you are saying? Were you ever
> taught about the famous peppered moth? It has been claimed
> to be a major evidence of EVOLUTION IN ACTION, has it not?
I heard about the peppered moth, yes. Change from white to grey and
back within 50 years' time. And to my understanding, that's always
been evolutionary theory's background.
> ("The Panda's Thumb", The Episodic Nature of Evolutionary
> Change, S.J. Gould, (1987 reprint), p. 151)
Please cite the credentials of S.J. Gould.
CH>> *baffle* Did you ever pass your 7th grade life sciences
CH>> class?
> Your problem seems to be that you never learned anything
> SINCE then!
I'm not a biology major. I'm a computer science major. Tell me,
just what is your field of study, that you claim to know so much,
yet appear to understand so little?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: You win. Staal lost. And it was _easy_.
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:56:02
EID:5431 227e6700
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
fr>> Strange. I received no response.
fr>> WHY DOESN'T VEGR ANSWER?
ch>> VEG'R is waiting for direct input from what it thinks is
ch>> the Creator. Anybody want to reach inside Jimson and
ch>> reprogram him from the inside-out?
> _I'm_ not getting my hands dirty. This sounds like a job of Rod
> Swift! }:-}
He better not; I don't wanna have to clean Jim's cooties off of my
husband! :)
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Re: CE
|Date: 30 Mar 97 12:59:34
EID:550f 227e6760
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TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
>>> When my sons and I are stopped at a train crossing, we count the cars.
>>> I'm often one off because I often inadvertantly start from 0. It's
a
>>> habit.
ch>> I sympathise. I've been using C for so long that I start
ch>> counting everything at 0 when I'm not thinking about it.
> Imagine how much worse it could get being addicted to APL. Then
> you'll have to check to see what your []IO is set to to know where
> your Quad origin is.
I haven't got an APL overlay in VI, but
2=(+/[2]0=(iN)o.|(iN)))/iN
will get you the all prime numbers between 1 and N (where o is the degree
symbol and i is the iterator function). *grin* I may not be addicted to
APL,
but I know it (kinda sorta).
> Have you looked into J from I. P. Sharp?
No, not yet. I've got to get used to C++ from C first. I've done Java,
though, so it shan't take me long I don't think. Right now, I'm just more
interested in graduating with my sanity intact.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Cheese Whiz
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:08:50
EID:477f 227eb900
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JS>> RS> jim you are a complete looser
JS>> And, pray tell, oh erudite one, what does a 'looser' do? Untie those
JS>> who are bound in sin?
> No, but even my brother thinks you're a dork. :) :) He was the
> one who wrote the message to you (as written in the message).
Which one was it? Graham or Courtney?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Ha!
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:14:54
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RS>> You are a proven liar.
> You, sir, are a liar, even as your man Satan is the father of lies.
I
> denied using 'gooks'. Read and learn.
There you go again, putting words and ideas into my husband's head.
Where do you keep getting these silly notions that there's this big
bad nasty evil thing that my husband worships? You keep saying that
my husband is a follower of Satan, and yet we tell you repeatedly
that atheists don't worship any supreme being, on any side of that
debate.
Jim, I'm starting to think that you're a troll. I can't believe (I
don't want to have to believe) that anyone could be as willfully
ignorant. But I'm probably going to have the same results as I did
with Allen Newton. *sigh* My optimism will be the death of me one
day.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Ha!
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:18:36
EID:6876 227eba40
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JS>> Just truth here, no evidence of 'homophobia'.
RS>> Truth? So you claimed this is reality, truth, proven, existent?
> Absolutely.
He said truth, Jim. Not Bible-parroting.
RS>> So you are willing to provide the evidence to prove this
RS>> statement? Please cite your scientific references in reputable
RS>> scientific journals. Thank you.
> No scientific journals needed here. Just common sense. The Bible
says
> he who unrepentantly practices such things, sins. Unforgiven sins
> result in condemnation. The end.
You've yet to establish that the Bible is a credible source.
RS>> Whatever you opine, idiot Jimson.
> I find it very interesting how you use your alleged 'better
> education': verbal abuse. Speaks volumes about your self esteem.
Jim, my husband doesn't mince words. If he called you an idiot, then
to his best reckoning, you're an idiot. Or else you're doing a damn
good impersonation of one.
RS>> because, naturally, you have no objectivity.
> I can be very objective.
You've never been objective in any argument you've ever made. What you
have been is deliberately misleading. Every proposition you've made has
been based on the unstated premises (axioms) that your God exists, and
that your interpretation of the Bible is accurate. Without those two
tenets, you're completely lost. And even granting the first, without the
second there's still a wide margin for error.
But you sit around ignoring those facts, because they're inconvenient
to worry about.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: 'First Cause' Crap
|Date: 30 Mar 97 23:28:16
EID:11b4 227ebb80
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 37
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> Carefully read his line. There are _two_ questions there. I answered
> the lastmost. Were I to answer the first, it'd be "no black marbles,"
> avoiding "zero black marbles" just as you say. Is zero one of the
> black ones? No. Is it one of the white ones? No. Is it _present_?
> It is in some people's twisted version of the discrete "number" line
> I'm trying to explore.
Even the discrete number line has a zero point.
> Correct, in _my_ version. But there'd be 5 white AND one 'grey'
> ("zero") marble left, in his.
Which is six. 11-5=6. That's still internally consistent. If you're counting
the fact that they're marbles, then thre are 11 marbles. It doesn't matter
whether you label them -5 to 5, A to K, or with 11 of the 12 zodiac signs.
There are 11 of them. And if you take 5 away, you have 6 left. It doesn't
matter which six; you'll have six remaining.
Subtraction of a single element involves a process:
1) remove one element
2) Advance the pointer to the next element
3) Count off "one"
What is being counted is not the elements, but the number of times the
pointer moves. The answer to the subtraction problem is equal to the
value to which the pointer is currently referencing.
Look at your line again.
[-5][-4][-3][-2][-1][0][+1][+2][+3][+4][+5]
Start at 5. Subtract five. That means that you will remove one element,
advance your pointer down one, and count off. When you count off five
times, you will have shifted your pointer from +5 to +4, then from +4 to
_3, then from +3 to +2, then from +2 to +1, then from +1 to 0. The answer
to 5-5 is 0, John. Your pointer is pointing at the grey marble which
references zero in this model.
> (A) In the "number line," between any two neighbor (dimensionless)
> points there are an infinite number of points. (And between any two
of
> those, an infinite number, and between any two of THOSE....(etc. ad
> infinitum).)
> (B) In the discrete line of points, between any two neighbor
> (dimensionless) points there are NO, NONE, NOT ANY points.
> It's that simple. 100% of this thread's argument seems to arise from
> one guy trying to think in one system while the other guy is thinking
> in the OTHER system.
No, it's that one guy is trying to call the two systems identical, and the
rest of us are saying that he first guy is full of shit.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: jesus needed...
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:28:38
EID:e4e7 2281ab80
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Make *up* your mind, Jimson.
> My mind is made up. You cannot/will not change it.
"Don't bother me with facts; my mind is made up." Jim, I could care
less what the book says. Your faith is strong enough that regardless
of interpretation suggested by my husband or anyone else, you'll simply
say "No" or "You are in error" or "You are wrong" or some other phrase
that indicates your unwillingness to even consider a possible alternative
explanation for the passages in your book.
I really do pity you, Jim.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Bathroom Staal knows wha
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:32:24
EID:37f2 2281ac00
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
JS>> RS> These things happened because you shouted out that you
JS>> RS> were black. If you had kept your negroidism to yourself,
JS>> RS> these things would not have happened to you now, would
JS>> RS> they?
JS>> RS> -- Idiot Jimson logic, as applied racially.
JS>> This argument is an insult to blacks everywhere.
> It is no sin to be Black.
And by substituting "gay" for "black" above, suddenly it becomes
a valid statement? How about if we put "Christian" in instead? What
then?
RS>> So it's horrendous to apply your words in a racial parallel (in
RS>> my example) to black people if one was to suggest that the
RS>> bashings and beatings blacks get is because they are vocal in
RS>> their demands for equality...
> Not at all.
So it isn't horrendous to apply your words in a racial parallel?
Please be very specific in your words, Jim. I'd hate to think that
you really mean this. But I wouldn't be overly surprised.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Book Theft
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:35:26
EID:890c 2281ac60
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> He chose to exercise his religious right to get married before
RS>> his church.
> No religious right.
His church recognised his marriage to his husband. Religious freedom
is one of the fundamental rights in this country.
RS>> How would you like it if someone wanted to sack you because of
RS>> your religion?
> Being gay is not a 'religion'.
But being religious is a choice.
RS>> You are the one actively resisting any change in the law to allow
RS>> EQUALITY to exist.
> Noh. I haven't written any letters...yet. :) Besides, you have jthe
> same rights in the USA as have I. You can marry any woman you choose.
And before Loving v. Virginia, white people had the right to marry any
white person they chose. And in Germany under the Neuremburg Laws, Jewish
people had the right to marry any Jew they chose. How is that so different
from this that you condemn those, and not this?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Book Theft
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:57:52
EID:890c 2281af20
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> So we will see you lobbing in Lansing, MI, to overturn the
RS>> Christian and their attempts to legislate their morality into
RS>> secular civil law when they want to ban something that doesn't
RS>> even exist -- same sex marriage?
> Why ban something that currently doesn't exist?
That's something that you should perhaps ask your federal Congresscritter,
considering they wasted time last session to pass DOMA. Or the 20 states
that have now explicitly banned same-sex marriages.
RS>> States make marriage laws. Do you believe they should
RS>> immediately expand marriage rights to cover gays?
> Gays have the same marriage rights as I.
And before Loving v. Virginia, everyone had the right to marry someone
of the same race. Sound familiar?
RS>> If you don't think the US has the right to have religion
RS>> influence secular law, does this mean you support the RESCISSION
RS>> of the Defense of Marriage Act?
> I don't know what that is. But if it is what I think it is, never.
So, here you say you're against repealing a ban on something thst
doesn't yet exist, but above you say you don't understand why someone
would ban something that doesn't exist.
Makes a lot of sense, Jim. Not.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 01 Apr 97 21:59:38
EID:c167 2281af60
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Please, oh please, can I slobber over your love tryst?
> Are you just the exception or do all gays read filthy illicit sex into
> everything?
Ye gods, Jim. Can you not hear the sarcasm practically dripping from
that sentence? Are you just the exception, or do all Christians think
of people in stereotypes?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: A question...
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:03:16
EID:991b 2281b060
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> Since the removal of the gender restrictions in marriage will not
RS>> affect you whatsoever, why do you not support the removal of such
RS>> restrictions?
> Because it will affect me. The judgement of God upon my country will
> also affect me.
How will it affect you? You state that it will, but offer no explanation
or justification for such a position. As for the other half, I neither
understand nor care; I'm not Christian and don't pretend to follow those
guidelines. I have my own moral code by which I run my life, and don't
need a wet-nurse or overbearing mystic father figure to tell me when to
wipe my nose.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Re: Misunderstanding?
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:07:38
EID:fb15 2281b0e0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> I do not see where Roger is coming from. Concealing ones'
> illness is one thing; not telling a lover one has NIV is
> another. The two are utterly different--- the original
> complain was my objection to THE GODDAMNED STATE keeping
> a database of NIV-positive victims, =NOT= personal lovers
> being "deceived" by lack of this knowledge.
NIV-positive? Has the Bible become a disease now? :)
Not that I'm contesting this position, mind you.. religion certainly
does spread like a virus. In fact, many belief systems can be said
to follow a viral model of spreading, with focal points of infection
(churches), carriers (philosophy majors who hang out with religious
friends), etc..
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: ARROGANCE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:11:48
EID:e855 2281b160
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> Now, I repeat my challenge...what will you do when you find out I made
> the correct choice?
First of all, it's _if_, not _when_. Second, I'll do exactly what I said
I would. Tell God off for his insolence and stand unrepentant before him.
If the supreme being you worship is so petty as to force me to my knees
to assuage his own ego, then that being is nothing but a petty tyrant and
dictator who deserves no worship.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:13:52
EID:0f74 2281b1a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> If you want to disarm an atheist, agree that he does indeed have the
> right to demand hard evidence; then you present that evidence; then
> dare him to DISPROVE it. He'll get so irate, he will lose what
> little rationality he had. Then you step in and say "it's okay,
God
> loves you, and I forgive your taunts and insults. AND I pray that
> you may someday be as intelligent as you claim.f
Then, by all means, if you have such evidence, present it! I for one would
revel in the chance to witness one of these alleged miracles that proves
the existence of a god, any god whatsoever!
Why is it every time I ask for evidence, I get crap that must be prefaced
with "this won't mean a thing to you unless you accept it as true before
I show it to you"?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George L. Harper
|Sub: Re: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:21:40
EID:36af 2281b2a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> News Flash: you should read Hitler's own words for a debunking of
RS>> your news flash! :)
> If you are going to accept Hitler's claim to innocent motivations
> because he uttered the statments in that claim, why do you have a
> problem accepting that what God proclaims in HIS statementsis equally
> true? A case of selective idiocy from the ranks of the Astute
> Atheists? A VERY blatant double standard, seems to me...hehehehe
So far as I know, God hasn't proclaimed anything. A lot of people have
made proclamations in the name of God, but I've never once heard or
seen anything God said or did. I'm sure if he did, Readers' Digest would
have a condensed version out within the week and then the world would
know about it.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:35:52
EID:8367 2281b460
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KY>> I am not God, and thus, do not claim to have all
KY>> the answers, but yes,
KY>> everything He made, there is a reason for.
KD>> Then he made a certain percentage of his people homosexual. There must
KD>> be a reason for that.
> There is a reason.. He didn't.
Then this God of yours didn't make anyone heterosexual either. He just
made them, and sexuality arose later on. In that case, it isn't an issue
over which God must worry about much. You can't have it both ways. If
homosexuality is a choice, then so is heterosexuality. If heterosexuality
is innate, then so is homosexuality. Pick one or the other, but stop trying
to sit on the fence.
And you never did tell me what the big deal is about it being a choice
in the first place. I mean, so what?
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Re: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:45:42
EID:7a07 2281b5a0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> The number of blocks between X and X+N, inclusive of endpoints, is
> always X-N+1. That is, was, and always shall be the case.
*sigh* This should be N+1. One of these days I'll learn to proofread my
own material...
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Mark O'neill
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:48:06
EID:b60e 2281b600
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KY>> I won't make a judgement on oral sex, as I am not sure. But anal sex
KY>> would be very unnatural, yes.
BB>> Why is it unnatural, Ken?
> Well, according to those that I know that have tried it, it is quite
> painful. Sex should be of pleasure, not pain.
Then they weren't doing it right. The only times it's ever hurt me is when
the angle is wrong. And as for pleasure and pain, I'm not a masochist, but
there are those that will disagree with that assessment.
> Plus, I would think it be more of an awkward way to have sex.
No more awkward than a man and a woman having sex.
> And come on.. Put that WHERE?!? I don't think so.. :)
You just don't have any imagination. :)
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Ha!
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:52:28
EID:6876 2281b680
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> I'm sorry, Jimson. Do I need to remind you of your claim that I
RS>> chose my sexual orientation, all those months ago? What about on
RS>> the echo? Huh?
> If you choose to delude yourself in claiming you didn't choose your
> lifestyle, fine. I will let that one lie. You have to admit, though,
> that you choose to remain in it.
As though he, or I, would _want_ to leave it. Jim, I'm going to assume
for the moment that you love your wife. If someone came along and told
you that for the good of your soul, you had to leave her and never have
sex with her again, would you?
RS>> You can't play both sides of the issue. Either justify your
RS>> claims about me that you have failed to justify, or retract them.
> The justification is obvious. No retraction will be made.
Jim, the only justification you have is your Bible, and that doesn't
count as valid in the eyes of anyone here that isn't Christian. Therefore,
as far as we're concerned, the justification is NOT obvious.
RS>> I'm sure Christopher can devise a list of demands for the
RS>> reparations of crimes against people like myself. He could start
RS>> on the list of your crimes against me, no?
> I have committed no 'crimes' against you or anyone else other than
> myself.
You've accused my husband of being afraid of your biblical rantings.
You've accused my husband of following Satan, both knowingly and
unknowingly.
Those two will do for a start.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Book Theft
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:54:20
EID:890c 2281b6c0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> Sorry. Practicing homosexuality and the murder of the unborn does/will
> affect me. I tolerate it to the extent I don't hate or treat in an
> anti-social manner those involved in it, but I don't like it and
> believe both are wrong.
But _how_ do they affect you? You've said several times that they do,
but you've never shown how. And your business about God judging the
nations, while valid in your head, isn't going to carry any weight
with me. You've got the right to believe what you like, but you don't
have the right to inflict those beliefs on others.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Re: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 22:56:28
EID:6346 2281b700
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> He is. Does he consider that his religious right-wing colleagues
RS>> are yet again trying to kill the federal ENDA?
> Why do we need 'special' rights for gays?
Because they're not "special rights," Jim. They're to prevent anyone
from being fired or not hired on the basis of sexual orientation.
That means heterosexuality too.
RS>> For the past 22 congressional sessions, the Employment
RS>> Non-Discrimination Act has been introduced and rejected. This
RS>> year, it will be reintroduced.
> And be rejected...
It only failed by one vote in the Senate last time. Hopefully this
time we'll have less fearmongering and more logic in the arguments.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Re: MILLENNIUM LUNACY
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:03:08
EID:14cc 2281b860
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
> [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D] [J----D]
> 2BCE 1BCE "0year" 1CE 2CE 3CE
> -2 -1 0 0 1 2 3 (??)
> Where does the zero POINT belong?
Because you're dealing with a discrete system, the whole year IS the
point.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: George L. Harper
|Sub: Re: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:11:48
EID:2050 2281b960
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KD>> Then he made a certain percentage of his people homosexual. There must
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And you, I presume, DO have evidence to support your claim?
>
I can only speak personally, but I know I never chose to be gay. As
far as theology goes, then if God is all-powerful, then God must've
made us this way (positing God for the purposes of this discussion).
Certainly you're not going to say that Satan is as powerful as God,
are you?
If homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality is a choice. If
heterosexuality is innate, then homosexuality is also innate. It
can't logically cut both ways.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Re: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:19:08
EID:0a02 2281ba60
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
KW>> It just goes to show where your values are.
> Oh yes! I love performing abortions too. If you partially birth
> them, the foetuses scream as you pierce the backs of their neck.
> I even suck out the brains by siphoning it out with my mouth.
> It allows one to blow it back in and hence scramble the brains
> before finally removing them!
"Babies. Fun to make, fun to eat!"
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: USA CyberCensor's Law
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:22:20
EID:7bab 2281bac0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
FR>> The KKK, Aryan Nations, Cross and the Sword, Focus on
FR>> the Family -- They're ALL Christanic death cult
FR>> organizations, you fucking idiot!
> Really.. Do tell, how many people has the group, Focus On The Family
> killed?
Directly or indirectly? Directly, probably very few. Indirectly, every
homosexual teen that's committed suicide because of their parents' or
their peers' religious rejection is in part on their heads.
> And do you really think that the KKK and Aryan Nations follow the
> teachings of Christ?
They claim to. I have no reason to think otherwise.
FR>> You yourself know you're a homophobic,
> That would mean I was afraid of homosexuality.
Then we'll call it what it is: homohatred. That would be the appropriate
word as coined by the authors of the book "After the Ball."
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:23:06
EID:d518 2281bae0
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
FR>> Previously you demanded that homos aren't Christians.
FR>> A review of the incidents of known child rape is by
FR>> ___CHRISTIANS___. (Reference SOF.TXT is available --
FR>> Sins of the Fathers.)
> The majority of cases of child rape are examples of sodomy, which
> tells me that most are likely gay.
Evidence? Please, some citations would be nice...
> Now, how do we know that most are Christians? ANyone could say that,
> you know.
And I, as an atheist, have no reason to think otherwise.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Christopher Hughes
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: Accepting Reality
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:24:00
EID:789d 2281bb00
PID: SX 4.3 UNREG 39
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
RS>> I want to know why Ken Wiens thinks homosexuals are *born* and
RS>> can *be in heaven*! :) :) Ken Young, care to ask the same
RS>> questions of your 'brother'?
> Does it really matter? It is just one of those theological
> differences. As long as the basics are there, it really doesn't
> matter if one Christian differs a little with the other stuff from
> another Christian.
Who is and who isn't going to be in heaven is a little difference?!?
Wow.. someone better bring back Simony. I could use this to my advantage.
--
In the name of the best within us,
Christopher Hughes
bear@atheist.com
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: Wolff the Liar
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:46:31
EID:4742 22813dc0
MSGID: 1:123/67 3340bdc2
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
29 Mar 97 22:18, quoting Bill Wolff to Martin Goldberg:
MG>> Why did you claim that Carl Sagan supported creationism?
BW> ROTFL! I didn't claim that Carl Sagan supported creationism, you
BW> twit! I merely agreed with Sagan when he admitted that the fossil
BW> record could be consistent with a designer. And more importantly, it
BW> would be more logical to believe with "a Designer of a more remote
BW> and indirect temperament."
You're an Idiot and a Liar, Wolff
"The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
Designer" -- Carl Sagan
Here's the rest of the quote, in context:
"The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
Designer; perhaps some species are destroyed when the Designer becomes
dissatisfied with them, and new experiments are attempted on an
improved design. But this notion is a little disconcerting. Each
plant and animal is exquisitely made; should not a supremely competent
Designer have been able to make the intended variety from the start?
The fossil record implies trial and error, an inability to anticipate
the future, features inconsistent with an efficient Great Designer
(although not with a Designer of a more remotea and indirect
temperament)."
IOW, the designs were poor and were replaced by new, better designs.
You might suppose a non-omnipotent, non-omniscient designer (a sort of
village idiot godlet), but there exists a simpler, far more compelling
mechanism: evolution. You will, of course, fail to understand this,
because you're a village idiot yourself.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: THOMAS DELCANO
|Sub: easter
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:59:41
EID:c498 22813f60
MSGID: 1:123/67 3340c0c2
REPLY: 1:360/24 d21fe9bc
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
29 Mar 97 01:05, quoting THOMAS DELCANO to ALL:
TD> Jeruselm (UPI), Here again it is Easter time , as reporters and
TD> pilgrims gather at the tombof Jesus, waiting the dawn of Sunday when
TD> "Puxatawney" Christ will again arise, and if he sees sees his shadow
TD> we will have 2 more weeks of Basketball season.
Shit...I'd almost rather see Jesus than another two weeks of overpaid,
7ft. Mau-Maus running up and down the hardwood.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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PATH: 123/67 302 43 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Brain-washed grovelers
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:37:06
EID:ab6f 228164a0
MSGID: 1:123/67 3341029e
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A303
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
30 Mar 97 18:32, quoting Ken Young to Quentin Fai:
KY> We are all sinners, and without Christ, are not fit to be in Heaven.
KY> It has nothing to do with your own self-esteen, it is just that the
KY> human race has a lot of wickedness, and does not deserve Heaven.
Gawd...you're a brain-washed little groveler, arent' you?
KY> But,
KY> God loves us so much, that He gives us the oppurtunity to be saved,
KY> nonetheless.
Why couldn't your myth-god get it right the first or second time,
Oh Sexless one?
KY> I am not saying I want them to go to Hell, just that that is the way
KY> it will be if one does not get saved.
Oh, but homos can't be saved, can they? Let's see, god creates these
individuals with all these feelings, feelings that the unanimous consensus
of medical professionals state cannot be changed, but if they continue
to act out these natural (for them) inclinations, they cannot be saved?
You're quite confused little virgin boy.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Staalin's child abuse
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:42:25
EID:c45c 22816540
MSGID: 1:123/67 334103d8
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A30E
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
30 Mar 97 23:38, quoting Ken Young to Fredric Rice:
KY> It is such a tragedy when mere discipline becomes thought of as "child
KY> abuse."
KY> SO, you do not believe any physical discipline is ever right?
There's a difference between a swat on the rear and beating the hell out
of a kid or jerking his arm out of the shoulder socket at the supermarket.
Mental discipline is much better. I've raised two well-behaved adults
without beating the hell out of them.
I remember one particular punishment that I inflicted upon my youngest son
for some breakdown in discipline. I made him take his school lunch in a
brown paper bag instead of buying lunch at the school. You see, brown
bagging was very "uncool" at the time and this little bit of punishment
made much more of an impression than beating him.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 01 Apr 97 18:00:34
EID:f42e 22819000
MSGID: 1:229/622 33414d43
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d765a
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Doug complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to J.j. <=-
DS> supposed to and they got their call traced. It wouldn't be the first
DS> time in history that a massive number of people have been killed to
DS> insure that the intended target was dead.
You were saying something about the Blue Council having disbanded?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: George Harper
|Sub: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 01 Apr 97 15:13:22
EID:a36d 228179a0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33418afe
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d89450b
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> George complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to David <=-
GH> AND Stalin was an atheist, as well as Saddam Hussein...both have
Stalin learned his tactics at the seminary where he was studying for
the priesthood.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 15:16:24
EID:a0c5 22817a00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:229/622.0 33418aff
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 5b899bbe
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> Jim complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Karl <=-
JS> 'hey Joe, you married?' 'no' 'gotta girl friend?' 'no, I'm gay'.
JS> Just the answer 'no' was sufficient. Why add the rest?
Why was the 'gotta girl friend' thrown in?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 01 Apr 97 18:01:36
EID:1292 22819020
REPLY: 1:229/622 33414d43
CHRS: IBMPC 2
MSGID: 1:229/622 33414db7
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of Judith Bandsma to J.j. Hitt:
JB> -=> Doug complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to J.j. <=-
DS>> supposed to and they got their call traced. It wouldn't be the first
DS>> time in history that a massive number of people have been killed to
DS>> insure that the intended target was dead.
JB> You were saying something about the Blue Council having disbanded?
I figured he was just jealous because he missed the bus.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Pascal's Wager
|Date: 01 Apr 97 06:54:09
EID:3ebf 228136c0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 e40c1604
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d89450a
On (31 Mar 97) George Harper babbled to Marilyn Burge...
MB> Oh, hubris-laden one, many of the others who did not answer
MB> never read your original post. Do you actually think that we
MB> nonbeliever hang on every word you send into this VERY
MB> verbose echo? Dream on!
MB> I have no trouble accepting Pascal's Wager at all. I wager
MB> that when you're dead, you're dead. And consequently, that
MB> you have wasted your entire life on a fastasy that makes a
MB> mockery of your very humanness.
You have wasted your life by devoting it to a fantasy.
That seems plain enough to me.
Christianity itself is a mockery of humanity. It proclaims
that by accepting a fiction we can successfully deny our
humanity, such as quitting what we were born to be (i.e.,
gay, interested in providing for ourselves, willing to
deny the will to survive by "turning the other cheek," etc.)
MB> But, dream on. It's your life you're wasting, not mine.
GH> My OLR is gonna SCREAM..."TOO MUCH QUOTED MATERIAL"
GH> VERBOSE is aan almost inadequate understatement
GH> Thank you for your permission to go on wasting my life. Care
GH> to explain how wasting my life is a mockery of humanity? Or
GH> is it fantasizing that you say is a mocker of humanity?
GH> Either way, most human beings I've met in my 60 plus years do
GH> a LOT of both.
Nonbelievers waste their time, not their humanness, which is the
word that I used. Our humanity includes respecting others just
exactly the way they are, rather than pounding sand in their ears
about making themselves into something they aren't.
... Reality has limits; stupidity has none. - N. Bonaparte
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:15:59
EID:a228 228139e0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 51caefc0
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 1633d2fc
On (26 Mar 97) Karl Schneider babbled to Richard Smith...
RS> Ken Young said to Rod Swift about Exemplifying examples 1/:
RS> Certainly. So why complain about homosexuals and abortion?
RS> If you don't want a homosexual, don't seek one out. If you
RS> it that you claim that people digging in their backyards can
RS> hear sounds originating from Hell, when we've managed to
RS> drill over a mile into the Earth?
KS> Actually, I have personally assisted in drilling wells over 20,000
KS> feet deep...
Did you hear the screams of the damned?
... I have bursts of lady-like behavior; fortunately, they don't last.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:43:15
EID:1528 22813d60
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 9ce8fa8b
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333cf5e6
On (28 Mar 97) Don Martin babbled to Dave Hamilton...
DM> post to Ed Mills, I am interested in pieces from various
DM> people; the more I think about it, the more interested I get.
DM> What is _your_ take on what goes on here? Or on my lauching
DM> point, the difference in mind sets arising from growing up
DM> part of the majority or not? Or on whatever is most important
DM> to your mind right now?
DM> When I think about finding a publisher for a book "on
DM> HolySmoke" I shudder, but the _process_ of putting one
DM> together is exciting!
....and clearly shows just how lazy you really are. WE do all
the writing; all you have to do is a bit of proofreading and
compiling.
... I confess to an unatural, and abnormal act. I have programmed a computer.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:47:16
EID:1528 22813de0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 a773a952
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333d0033
On (29 Mar 97) Don Martin babbled to Curtis Johnson...
DM> Believe me, this one won't be going out the door anytime
DM> soon. I am also interested in accounts of how WOAs got that
DM> way. Right now I hypothesize highly individualized routes.
It's been a while since I posted my WOA beginnings. See next
message.
CJ> My expertise tends to be of the general variety, but I could
CJ> probably contribute an essay about Things Fundies Don't Know
CJ> About the History of the Bible (that early NTs have other
CJ> books in with the NT, that Revelation was rejected in the
CJ> East till the 7th century, etc.).
DM> Sounds like another chapter to me.
I think we need a small chapter on taglines, or perhaps a better
choice would be to include taglines as you go along that
succinctly state the point being made. You could use them as
paragraph headers along with verbiage in the beginning of the book
that states the paragraph headers are taglines filched from the
echo participants.
... Quaker threat: Pardon, brother--thou standst where I'm about to shoot!
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Why I am a WOA
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:50:51
EID:ed19 22813e40
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 6730e175
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 333d0033
My parents were both unchurched nominal believers. My
brother, however, regularly attended a Nazarene church,
which is VERY fundamentalist (and was probably even moreso
in those days, some 50 years ago).
I started attending with my brother, wondering what he
was doing every Sunday morning, and not wanting to miss
out on anything (typical "little sister" attitude, I'm
sure).
I eventually got "saved."
When I was fourteen, my father died. Within months, my
mother married my eldest sister's ex-husband. He was a
wifebeater and alcoholic, which is why my sister had
divorced him (the first divorce, ever, which was supposed
to be a shameful thing).
During these horrible times in my life, there was an altar
call at the church (I had not been attending much lately),
and some old biddy sidled up to me and whispered in my ear,
trying to "give me convictions" to "come forward." I told
her that if there were really a god, he would not have taken
my father away from, which had clearly torn my family completely
apart. Her response was that "god was lonely and needed [my
father's] company in heaven."
Never mind that, according to her beliefs, my father was being
barbequed as she spoke. I told her that god had millions upon
millions of people for company and I only had one father, who
had been taken from me. I told her that if her god was that
selfish, to take a 14-year-old's only father from her in order
to satisfy his own "need" for company, I wanted nothing to do
with him.
I floundered directionlessly for several years after that.
Then, I got married and put some direction my my life. When
I was in my late 30's I went back to work. There was an
officer in the organization I worked for who was an ACLU board
member. I admired him greatly. Without even knowing it, he
taught me the word "humanism." After learning a bit about
the American Humanist Association, I joined, and have felt
ever since like that is where I truly belong. There's no lonely
gods, just concerned, happy, productive people who believe
stronly in helping their fellow human beings. Right here on
Earth. With no heavenly rewards, but just the reward of knowing
they have done something helpful for another human being.
- 30 -
... Fundamentalism is merely stupidity raised to a higher power.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 01 Apr 97 15:30:12
EID:03eb 22817bc0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33417285
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d97c5be
George Harper said "FREEDOM OF CHOICE" to Karl Schneider,
adding:
KS> You are nothing more than a subhuman lying asshole.
GH> Poor Karl...he has a fixation on Assholes.
We all _knew_ there was a reason for Karl to take the
time to respond to this twit.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Long Strings of Posts
|Date: 01 Apr 97 15:32:26
EID:61ef 22817c00
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33417286
Hi Gang,
Just a note of explanation about why you have recently
seen a whole wad of stuff from my keyboard all at once. No,
I am not trying for the Al Schroeder type-alike prize, but
have been a victim of circumstances here: the Fido feed to
my "home" BBS, the Nerve Center, died over the weekend. When
that happens, I go to Steve Rose's board to keep up.
However, I have found in the past that Steve's board often
has problems with _outgoing_ mail, so I have done a side
shift with the comments, to post them on the Nerve Center,
where 2-3 days' worth piled up before going anywhere.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Alec Grynspan
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:15:41
EID:5695 228139e0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33413ba1
REPLY: 1:2424/11 333ee71f
Hi Alec...
On 30 Mar 97 22:19:20, Alec Grynspan penned the following to Marilyn Burge
re: AHEM???
MB> It's also an ethnic identity, dimbulb. My son-in-law is an
MB> atheistic Jew. Like it or lump it. There are literally
MB> hundreds of thousands of them worldwide.
AG> However, there are no Christian Jews - period.
While the Jews may say that, there are very large "Jews for
Jesus" and "British Israelite" movements here in Calgary.
Are they not "Christian Jews", Alec?
John
... "Land of milk and honey?" Great...I'm a lactose intolerant diabetic.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 01 Apr 97 08:53:00
EID:c3ba 228146a0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 5f1306fd
JB> Why not? I used to live with a tattoo artist who had a set of
JB> cherries and the word 'Swan' tattooed on his. (No, I didn't
JB> get to hold it for him when he did it)
JB> First time I ever saw it, I was puzzled by the 'Swan', until
JB> he got hard and I realized the word was actually
JB> 'Saskatchawan'...his birthplace.
It may not be the _oldest_ joke in the world but it's certainly in
contention....
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 01 Apr 97 07:53:00
EID:5170 22813ea0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ bef316aa
AH> No, he becomes a Christian, which is non-Jewish. Judaism is a
AH> religion, not a race.
MB> It's also an ethnic identity, dimbulb. My son-in-law is an
MB> atheistic Jew. Like it or lump it. There are literally
MB> hundreds of thousands of them worldwide.
AG> However, there are no Christian Jews - period.
MB> Wrongo, bucko. There are Messianic Jews, and they recognize
MB> Jesus as the Messiah; therefore, they are Christians.
MB> Judaism is both a religion AND an ethnic identity. Period.
But Alan is contending that when you become a member of a new church
you cease to be a member of your original church. Try it with any
two other religions and it works all right. You can only insist that
a person remains a Jew after converting if you also insist that
religion and "race" are the same. (I put race in quotes because I
believe the concept to be deeply flawed.)
"Ethnic identity" is an equally hopeless concept. Is a person whose
family has lived in Scotland for four hundred years a Jew or a
Scot? Would the question be asked if the person in question was a
Catholic? (It's a fair question since neither religion is the norm
in Scotland.)
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 01 Apr 97 08:39:00
EID:3079 228144e0
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ 3060d91d
DS> I don't think these guys killed themselves. From newspaper
DS> accounts they were engaged in worthwhile activity. And, there
DS> was the report of a pungent odor present in the house. Of
DS> course, 39 bodies, all present in the same location, could
DS> raise QUITE a stink, depending upon how long these guys were
DS> dead before they were found. Still, I cast my vote for
DS> CYANNIDE GAS, delivered through the ventilation system. Since
DS> these guys were all computer whizzes, the chances are very
DS> good that one (or more of them) could have gotten hold of
DS> something they were not supposed to and they got their call
DS> traced. It wouldn't be the first time in history that a
DS> massive number of people have been killed to insure that the
DS> intended target was dead.
Who sneaked into the house to cover them with purple shrouds? Who
made the video tapes describing what they were going to do? Your
scenario has a good many holes in it. Do you _always_ leap to
conclusions before you know all the facts? Apparently.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: David Rice
|Sub: Re: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 01 Apr 97 17:09:00
EID:586d 22818920
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33395858
In a message to David Rice <03-31-97 09:15> George Harper wrote:
GH> -=> Quoting George Harper <=-
GH>
GH> GH> (NEWS FLASH: Hitler was NOT a Christian...he was
GH> GH> a lunatic on the order of Jimmy Jones)
GH>
GH> DR> VALID NEWS FLASH: Hitler was a Christian--- he said so.
News flash for the intellectually challenged: Hitler was most certainly
NOT a
Christian. (These facts can be backed up by reading any biography of Adolf
Hitler, or by reading the recent history of Germany. But then again, I
am
making a great assumption here-----you CAN read, can't you, David?) Yes,
in
early life (as a child), he said he wanted to be a priest. (Real Christian
churches don't have formal priesthoods.) But when he took office, he tried
to
tell the German churches to eliminate much of the Bible from their teaching,
on grounds that it was mostly Jewish. Hitler also ordered the deaths of
thousands of Christians in addition to the six million Jews he ordered dead.
Adolf Hitler is NOT a Christian by any stretch of the imagination.
GH>
GH> DR> But then, so was the Rev Jim Jones.
Nope! Wrong again. At first, he made his message sound like the Gospel.
Th
en he did the wrong thing---he tried to oppose God. Then he did even
worse---he convinced over nine hundred people to kill themselves, because
he
knew his cause was lost.
Revisionist history at its finest. Sorry, but people who bother to READ
history for themselves won't buy it. Just as I didn't (and won't) buy it.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you long for a "Remote control" that would convert all the tissue-soaking,
male bashing TV movies to football games or fishing programs.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
* Origin: The Warrior's Path 915-659-2424 *Texas* V32b V42b (1:383/6293)
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: ...
|Date: 01 Apr 97 17:49:00
EID:3a3f 22818e20
MSGID: 1:383/6293 333961B4
In a message to Ken Young <03-30-97 22:43> Richard Smith wrote:
RS> REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333c5aae
RS> MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 333f32d4
RS> RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
RS> Ken Young said to Dave Hamilton about ...:
RS>
RS> DC> Just before Occam slices your foot off, try looking at the
RS> DC> far easier answer: Joseph fucked Mary's brains out one
RS> DC> night and she got pregnant.
RS> ky> Evidence?
RS> DH> That's how people get pregnant. Aren't you getting tired
RS> DH> of asking for evidence that you never accept? Did you
RS> DH> learn that from Jim Stall?
RS> ky> Funny, that is what I keep wondering about people like
RS> ky> you.
RS>
RS> Snappy retort. Doesn't require any thought, either. Too
RS> bad it's substantive . . .
RS>
RS> ky> You just ask for evidence of things when we both know
RS> ky> you would never accept any evidence.
RS>
RS> You BELIEVE, you don't know. Knowing it would require you
RS> to be able to read Dave's mind, since he's never stated
RS> anything of the kind. Since there IS a history of you
RS> ignoring evidence, whereas I can cite no examples of you
RS> even presenting evidence, let alone it being accepted, I'm
RS> afraid the preponderance of evidence in this example is
RS> against you.
RS>
RS> Thanx for playing, though. Here's a copy of the home game.
You've just been gonged, Richard. Here are some facts for you:
1. The Bible has been shown, time and again, to be at the very least a
reliable record of ancient history. Many of the events recorded therein
are
also recorded in works by other ancient historians, including (but not limited
to) Josephus. And the vast majority of modern-day historians regard the
Bible
as highly credible historically.
2. Dr. J. C. Grenda, former professor of geology at Angelo State University
in San Angelo, TX, who is most certainly NOT a Christian, taught in a
historical geology class (which I took and passed, mind you) that many of
the
miracles recorded in the Old Testament do have specific geologic evidences
to
support that they actually occurred. For example, a seaquake that was known
to have happened around the year 3000 B.C. in the Mediterranean was in fact
powerful enough to have caused the Red Sea to fold back or be split in the
manner described in the Book of Exodus.
3. The emergence of many false Christs and non-Christian prophets also
confirms the truth of the Bible. Jesus taught this almost 2,000 years ago.
It's been happening, at an ever-increasing pace, ever since.
4. Mark Ridley, zoologist at Oxford University, in "Who doubts evolution?"
NEW SCIENTIST, volume 90, 6/25/81, page 831, states, "In any case, no real
evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record
as
evidence in favor of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation."
Again, the weight of expert testimony is against that line of thought,
Richard.
RS>
RS> ky> ANd that is how most get pregnant. It is possible for a
RS>
RS> . . . if It exists . . .
Glad you finally acknowledge at least that a being who is God can do anything.
RS>
RS> ky> God that can do anything
RS>
RS> . . . allegedly, though It can't stop sin and needs a
RS> torture chamber and intimidation and fear to get people to
RS> do It's will . . .
Really? Let's back up and try it one more time. If you were a potter,
Richard, wouldn't you want to make the best piece of pottery you could?
What
would you do with the clay that you had to scrape off in order to shape
it
exactly the way you wanted? I know---you'd pat it on the head, say, "You
poor little thing, let's just clump you up and put you over here." Pretty
soon you'd be drowning in clay. No, you'd DISPOSE of it. We are the clay,
Richard!
RS>
RS> ky> to supernaturally put a baby
RS> ky> there, without sex ever occurring.
RS>
RS> How, exactly, would It do that? Since you and the other
RS> cretinists keep asking exactly how life started, how the
RS> "first `string' of DNA formed from the first atom," etc.,
RS> this is not too extreme a question to ask in return. Try to
RS> keep it under a thousand words, and use words that we can
RS> all agree on the definitions of, thank you.
Under a thousand words? Using words we can all agree on? OK. It's going
to
be difficult, but I'll try......ohh, this is SOOOO tough......God CREATED
either a sperm cell or a fertilized ovum in Mary's womb. Mary then carried
it
to full term, and when it was time for Jesus to be born, He was. (That
was
just soooo difficult. Thanks for the challenge.)
RS>
RS> ky> And no, Jim seems to generally accepts evidence.
RS>
RS> LOL . . .
RS>
RS> ky> Problem is, perhaps you have difficulty in being able
RS> ky> to comprehend exactly what that means.
RS>
RS> Exactly what WHAT means . . . accepting or evidence? Jimbozo
RS> doesn't even accept that he's a clear closet case, a sexist
RS> and a racist, a congenital liar that doesn't mind beating
RS> children, doesn't work, begs on an open forum, and is more
RS> `sinful' than a lot of Pagans I know.
RS>
RS> If he's your stunning example of shining Xtianity, I guess
RS> he won't tarnish if the truth be known, eh? Just don't be
RS> surprized that by his antics (and yours, and Harper's, etc.)
RS> are we forming the image of what we consider Xtians to be.
I tend to disbelieve you, Richard, because you paint all of us Christians
with
the same colors. Although I don't know Jim at all, and therefore am not
commenting about him personally, I think anyone reading any of your posts
regarding this Christian or that Christian ought to take them with several
grains of salt.
RS>
RS> ky> And what is wrong with the answer that God just did
RS> ky> something? If He is truly all powerful, then nothing
RS> ky> ie beyond Him.
RS> DH> Well, there's no evidence.
RS> ky> Only none that you will accept.
RS>
RS> Got ANY evidence at all? Present any _evidence_ of this,
RS> and we'll see. One is not obligated to accept what is
RS> offered if it clearly does not prove the point that the
RS> person is trying to prove. THAT is part of what the
RS> scientific method is all about . . .
See my above listed evidence, then. Also check out www.doesgodexist.org.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you don't go to a bar anymore, but would rather watch "Mash" reruns
instead.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Re: Homosexuality
|Date: 01 Apr 97 18:05:00
EID:65d0 228190a0
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33396566
In a message to Martin Goldberg <03-30-97 23:02> Richard Smith wrote:
RS> Have you thought to ask them?
RS>
RS> MG> "If called upon to counsel a homosexual, the
RS> MG> physician's approach should in no way differ from the
RS> MG> approach to a heterosexual. No attempt should bemade
RS> MG> to try and direct him inot a heterosexual behaviro
RS> MG> unless he specifically requests such help."
RS> ky> Again, opinions..
RS>
RS> Expert testimony by people in that field of endeavor, with
RS> much scholarship and education, which qualifies as evidence.
RS> Refuted.
RS>
RS>
RS> ky> Again, you have stated opinions from professionals,
RS>
RS> Exactly, expert testimony.
OK. Let me get this straight: you'll accept expert testimony that seems
to
verify your position, and you'll call the people who back you up "experts"
regardless of what their education and/or experience is. Yet when presented
with expert testimony from those who disagree with you, you'll go so far
as
to call them unqualified to speak on the subject even when presented with
the
ir credentials. Can we say BIASED???????
Seems to me that a while back I presented evidence that most
reputable scientists believe there could have been an intelligent Creator
of
the Universe, and every expert witness I presented was discounted. P.S.:
You
never answered my last post about Dr. Bradley. His background is NOT in
mechanical engineering, but rather in applied solid and liquid state physics
and chemistry. (You can verify that by EMailing him at
wbradley@mengr.tamu.edu.) Thus he is well-qualified to speak as an expert
on
thermodynamics and the origin of life. (Or could it be that you were afraid
to answer that post because you fear the truth? Don't fear it----it can
set
you free!)
- Pedit Ver 2.5
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
* Origin: The Warrior's Path 915-659-2424 *Texas* V32b V42b (1:383/6293)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Around the World in.. 2/
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:14:43
EID:d271 2281b9c0
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a46e
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Jim Staal <=-
RS> @MSGID: 3:690/660.0 333791c8
RS> * On 21-03-97 at 15:32, JIM STAAL wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER,
RS> on the topic of "Around the World in.. 2/" in echo Holysmoke:
JS> JS> You can't fire someone for being gay.
JS> KS> You are a fucking liar.
JS> JS> What country do you live in? There _are_ laws against
JS> JS> discrimination, you know.
JS> KS> You are a moron.
JS> And you? How would you describe yourself?
RS> You fail to understand that Karl called you a moron because you
RS> failed to understand that in 41 states in the United States, it
RS> is QUITE legal to fire someone due to their sexual orientation,
RS> and the person has no right nor claim of job discrimination.
and would you list some evidence/examples of where and when it actually
happens?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: worship of torture
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:20:18
EID:ff6b 2281ba80
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a46f
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting ROBERT CURRY to JIM STAAL <=-
RC> And when you're one answering that (watch the evasion, folks -- do
RC> enjoy the show!), here's another:
RC> Why would you *worship* such a heinous torturer anyway?
RC> Because your grandfather did?
No, because God put it into my heart to do so. Happy now? Good enough
show for you? When does the applause start?
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:21:04
EID:d1ee 2281baa0
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a470
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Jim Staal <=-
KD> @MSGID: 1:207/212 82944ad0
KD> On (25 Mar 97) Jim Staal wrote to Karen Davis...
KD> Either all religions are right or none are. Thus since the Christians
KD> believe they are the only ones who are right, they debunk not only
KD> themselves but all religion.
JS> All religions are not right. Only true Christianity.
KD> Then why was Christianity not given a REAL start in any other area
KD> except the middle east? If something is so right that it affects one's
KD> mortal soul, then waiting for people to spread the word isn't good
KD> enough.
It was the time/place/means God chose to do so.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:22:47
EID:ad33 2281bac0
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a471
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Christopher Hughes to Jim Staal <=-
CH> Even if my husband,
Show me the legal certificate.
CH> who is a journalist and used to subedit for a
CH> living,
Hahahahahahahahaha! No evidence of that here. I think he lives off the
state for a living...just like you!
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: You lose.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:27:35
EID:a31c 2281bb60
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a472
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Staal <=-
JB> @MSGID: 1:229/622 333e5c5a
-=> Jim complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith <=-
JS> regular payments on the bill if necessary. But I understand what you
JS> are saying.
JB> You'd love it here then. You can't even get into the emergency room
JB> unless you $110 to give them upfront. They couldn't refuse you if you
JB> were bleeding to death or having a heart attack, but they can and will
JB> if you have a broken limb and no cash or plastic to cover it. (If you
JB> have insurance, that's fine...the insurance has to reimburse YOU)
I think you live in the land of Neanderthals. It doesn't sound like much
fun. I pay $10 to go to the doctor, and the hospital charges the
insurance company first and then what they don't pay comes to me.
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Jim Staal
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 01 Apr 97 23:29:12
EID:fcca 2281bba0
MSGID: 1:228/87.0 3341a473
PID: BWRA 3.20 [Eval]
TID: GE/32 1.2
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Jim Staal <=-
JB> @MSGID: 1:229/622.0 333ff935
-=> Jim complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Karl <=-
JS> Why not? It is a work of art.
JB>
JB> Why not? I used to live with a tattoo artist who had a set of cherries
JB> and the word 'Swan' tattooed on his. (No, I didn't get to hold it for
JB> him when he did it)
He had jsomeone else do it? ;)
JB> First time I ever saw it, I was puzzled by the 'Swan', until he got
JB> hard and I realized the word was actually 'Saskatchawan'...his
JB> birthplace.
LOL! Interesting. I wonder what 'you ain't seen nothing yet' would lool
like in a flacid state. :)
... Catch the Blue Wave!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Mike & Steve's BBS Grand Rapids MI (616) 285-9031 (1:228/87)
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: dumb religious delusions
|Date: 31 Mar 97 22:49:00
EID:4a73 227fb620
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33375677
In a message to Darryl Gonzalez <03-30-97 00:27> Dan Ceppa wrote:
DC> -> On 26 Mar 97 18:50:00, Darryl Gonzalez got back to Mark O'Neill
DC>
DC> DG> You totally missed the point, Mark. My point there was that
DC> most of
DC> DG> the people on this echo will refuse to listen to any evidence
or
DC> DG> argument no matter what I do. That point had nothing to do with
DC> DG> reading the Bible at all.
DC>
DC> But of course it does, Darryl, Darryl and your other brother,
DC> Darryl
Dan,
Sometimes I question whether you CAN even read. Check out the original
message, pal!
DC>
DC> You are using your "god written" bible out as evidence. Provide
I didn't do that in the original message. Can you even read, Dan?
DC> the evidence that your god exists before you make the silly-assed
DC> claim that it was written by your "god".
DC>
Once again I must ask if you can even read. I listed four different items
which backed both the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you long for a "Remote control" that would convert all the tissue-soaking,
male bashing TV movies to football games or fishing programs.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 31 Mar 97 22:56:00
EID:cf59 227fb700
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33375835
In a message to Ken Young <03-31-97 05:59> Judith Bandsma wrote:
JB> -=> Ken complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Dan <=-
JB>
JB> KY> Your creator wouldn't be worth you worshipping Him? That's like
JB> ^^^^
JB>
JB> You better back off on this type shit. In one post you go on and on
JB> about
JB> how you are 'just telling people' and not forcing stuff on them.
JB>
JB> You KNOW that Dan doesn't believe the same as you do, so WHY are you
JB> trying
JB> to include him in your myths?
But God (YHWH) IS Dan's creator, Judith, whether Dan wants to recognize
him as
such or not. Just as He is YOURS.
Were they myths, I would not make a point of sharing them with as many people
as I can. I do not try to include Dan, or you, or anyone else in a bunch
of
myths. I think Ken agrees. But I do try to share the truth with them,
so
that they can believe it, serve God, and be saved.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If your preacher's sermons every Sunday seem to include you.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Re: FUNDY FROLICS 1/3
|Date: 31 Mar 97 23:06:00
EID:e49f 227fb8c0
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33375A82
In a message to Ken Young <03-31-97 12:53> Dave Hamilton wrote:
DH> REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333b1f56
DH> MSGID: 1:229/622 333fb43f
DH> CHRS: IBMPC 2
DH> TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH> KY>> As far as holding God to the same standards as humans goes, I
DH> would
DH> KY>> say that, since God is the creator of morality and what is
DH> right,
DH> KY>> whatever He says is right, must be.
DH>
DH> DH>> So is slavery ok?
DH>
DH> KY> If the slaves gave up their freedom willingly, and actually
DH> chose to
DH> KY> be slaves,but only then.
DH>
DH> Since with the exception of Christian women, this has never in
DH> history
DH> been the case, it would seem you have higher morals even than Jesus.
Really? What's your evidence that slavery (or servanthood) has never been
voluntary? Haven't you ever heard of the indentured servants who came to
America prior to the Revolutionary War? These were people of European (and
s
ome African) races who were slaves for a set number of years, and then set
free, and given a portion of the "master's" goods. They came VOLUNTARILY.
This item of history can be picked up in any high-school American history
textbook which covers 1492-1865. P.S.: That's also a Biblical principle,
so
those who were slaves in the OT were in fact indentured servants.
DH> He
DH> never condemned the slavery that existed in his time, conquered
DH> people
DH> being bought and sold. I've always wondered why that was. Have you?
DH>
Again, what's your evidence that this took place?
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you notice that all the other drivers are speeding and driving crazy.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Darryl Gonzalez
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Re: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 31 Mar 97 23:08:00
EID:d646 227fb900
MSGID: 1:383/6293 33375AF5
In a message to Ed Mills <03-31-97 13:07> Dave Hamilton wrote:
DH> REPLY: 1:105/24.12 200a2d7c
DH> MSGID: 1:229/622 333fb752
DH> CHRS: IBMPC 2
DH> TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
DH> About a message of Ed Mills to George Harper:
DH>
DH> GH>> I don't mind being a cyberspace scapegoat, if even ONE of these
DH> GH>> detractors follows in the footsteps of Saul of Tarsus, joining
DH> the
DH> GH>> ranks of believers. That would justify all the humiliation
DH> heaped on
DH> GH>> me, deservedly or not. If not even one comes over, then I can
DH> at
DH> GH>> least know that I tried.
DH>
DH> EM> Too bad the results are, on balance, the opposite of what you're
DH> EM> trying to accomplish, eh? Are you sure that's what your deity
DH> wants
DH> EM> you to do? :-)
DH>
Yes, and I'm going to keep on doing it! And I hope GH does too.
- Pedit Ver 2.5
... If you don't go to a bar anymore, but would rather watch "Mash" reruns
instead.
You might be over 50
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Ha!
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:09:02
EID:3ee4 227b5120
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d6be
* On 22-03-97 at 22:33, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Ha!" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> RodS> Did they find the cult of Vernon was stockpiling
RS> RodS> TANKS? Or was it that they just had a year's
RS> RodS> supply of NOODLES to keep them going?
RS> js> None of the above.
RS> RodS> Of course not, simpleton.
RS> js> I find it quite amusing that a giggly little girl
RS> njs> . . . that I find so erotically enticing . . .
RS> js> such as yourself would call one such as I
RS> njs> . . . effectively dead from the neck up . . .
RS> js> 'simpleton'. LOL!
RS> Yeah, Rod, what's wrong with you! Staalin can't pronounce
RS> words of more than TWO syllables! Where's your compassion?
RS> `Fool' is an equally acceptable term!
That's right. :) :) :) :) :) I'm a giggly girly! :) I should use
"fool" more often to describe his status as a simpleton.
Maybe I could be error-dite by pe_r_jorate-ing "fool" :) :)
RS> js> ... Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. - John 6:37
RS> I, personally, think he's coming on to you here. };)
RS> ... Him that cometh in me I will in no ways push out. -- JS 1:3
*KINKY!* :) :) :)
Jimson just loves that Holy Sper...Spirit :)
Rod "...ho ho ho!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * At least I never misplaced the Deltivid asteroid belt - Q
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Educational Experience
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:11:04
EID:2b8e 227b5160
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d738
* On 22-03-97 at 22:47, RICHARD SMITH wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Educational Experience" in echo Holysmoke:
RS> RodS> The inspiration of Jesus is one whereby you
RS> RodS> believe, or burn. Most would call it blackmail.
RS> RodS> Deluded people call it "salvation".
RS> js> A good alegory would be to throw a lifepreserver to a
RS> js> drowning person and that person refuses to avail
RS> js> himself of it and drowns. No blackmail there.
RS> A better analogy would be to toss a life preserver to a man
RS> walking in the Mohave and tell him that he's drowning. But
RS> I don't expect Jimson to understand that.
That was my analogy. Either one can look at his allegory as
being tossing a life preserver to someone standing on dry land,
while watching the deluded fool pretend he's drowning. I
expressed that this image is why I find Christians to look
foolish.
The alternative is the "greater picture" view, where they throw
innocent people into a wading pool, claim it's a tremendous
ocean, and that they need saving -- normally the people they
throw in the wading pool are innocent children.
Nothing like the fear of a non-existent God to make sure the next
generation is just as unthinking as this one.
Rod "...*sigh*!" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Anti-women, anti-gay -- born again bigot, go away!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:13:06
EID:7a9c 227b51a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d7b2
* On 24-03-97 at 15:03, KARL SCHNEIDER wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples 1/" in echo Holysmoke:
KS> RS>KS> KY>find such a thing very sick indeed. But, a majority of
KS> RS>KS> KY>molesters do appear to be gay.
KS> RS>KS> You are a liar.
KS> RS>How many youths will commit suicide because people who listen to
KS> RS>Ken pressure them?
KS> Far too many, sadly.
Yes, sadly. Here's a reference :(
* Half of all lesbian and gay youth report that their parents reject them
due to their sexual orientation.
-- Remafedi, G. "Male Homosexuality: The Adolescent's Perspective,"
Pediatrics, 79:326-330, 1987.
* Gay adolescents are two to three times more likely to attempt suicide
than male heterosexual adolescents. It is estimated that up to 30% of
reported youth suicides each year are committed by lesbian and gay young
people.
-- Gibson P, LCSW. "Gay Male and Lesbian Youth Suicide," Report of the
Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services, 1989.
Rod "...*sigh*" Swift :(
* OLX 2.1 TD * Dogs crawl under gates, software crawls under Windows
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Homosexuals Also Repr
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:15:08
EID:80fc 227b51e0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d82c
* On 24-03-97 at 00:14, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Homosexuals Also Repr" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RS> They *are* distasteful. For me, eating seafood is distasteful,
KY> RS> but that does not mean I have not eaten seafood on occasion.
KY> RS> The motivation has been present in which I have had to practice
a
KY> RS> distasteful act out of motivational reasons.
KY> I really cannot understand this. I would think that if you found
KY> something truly disgusting, that you wouldn't take part in it.
I do. I don't eat seafood.
KY> RS> Here is the point I wish you to ponder.
KY> RS> Why do heterosexuals try homosexual sex acts? Don't they find
KY> RS> the acts distasteful?
KY> This is a good question, and I would have to say for the most part,
they
KY> don't. The only time is when growing up, some will do many
KY> things to experiment. But once they are aware of who they
KY> are, they generally do not do something they find
KY> distasteful.
Ah, so you admit that sexual orientation is innate?
KY> ...but once they are aware of WHO THEY ARE, they generally...
Thank you for your final admission in this case that you were
wrong.
Rod "...you can leave now, but at least you can leave honestly" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Could crop circles be the work of a cereal killer?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:18:10
EID:f07c 227b5240
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d8e2
* On 24-03-97 at 00:22, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Exemplifying examples" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> But it is possible for people with their own mind power
KY> to change themselves physically. This may sound bizarre,
KY> but it is definitely
DC> Change yourself into a hippopotamus. That would be really bizarre.
RS> Hey, let's pick something inanimate. How about a table?
RS> Rod "...wahoo! The power of the mind can do anything. The power
RS> of God can do nothing. Ergo, Ken Young says we should all be
RS> Mindists, not Christians" Swift :)
KY> No, because while the power of the mind may be a great
KY> thing, God has set limits to what extent it can be used.
Oh, I agree. Your mind usage has been severely limited to
spewing theories, but providing no rational basis for the
theories nor providing any supporting evidence.
KY> Besides, the mind can't do everything.
KY> Unlike God.
Oh, yeah! :) :) God is *sooooo* powerful that he allows daily
misery, hunger, famine, abject poverty, etc, etc.
And this is his "love" for his creation.
Praise Jesus for barbaric world agronomics!
Maybe if we just think about the world being able to sustain the
population, it'll just happen, yeah?
Rod "...wahoo!" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Know God, know problems. No God, no problems!
--- Maximus 2.02
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:21:12
EID:ca8d 227b52a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339d998
* On 24-03-97 at 00:25, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel Boycot" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> RH> KY> Because only one is natural and has a practical purpose.
KY> RH> Given overpopulation, the "purpose" is detrimental to the species.
KY> RS> You are correct. You could have also attacked him on his narrow
KY> RS> view and non-pluralistic viewpoint on this issue. Why only ONE
KY> RS> function? Why can't there be more than one function? Why is
KY> RS> only ONE valid?
KY> There is more than one function to sex, but there is one
KY> primary one, that is above the rest.
Now, don't backflip. You said that only *ONE TYPE OF SEX* is
natural. Unless, of course, you are saying that homosexuality is
natural, just that it has no procreative purpose.
Then again, most heterosexual sex acts are the same --
deliberately non-procreative.
KY> RH> Homosexuality occurs among animals. It is "natural" too.
KY> RS> Of course it is. :) :) He denied it existed in the animal
KY> RS> kingdom though.
KY> I sure did. I have seen some strange things, but I can
KY> safely say, I never saw homosexuality among animals.
We provided citations. You have failed to read them I see.
Would you like more citations? Or do you want to actually
attempt to read the first batch of papers into the issue?
And, actually, I doubt that you are telling the truth about never
seeing it. There was widespread TV coverage of those two octopii
that were getting it on in a same-sex manner a few years back.
Rod "...but you may have missed the news reports. Shall I find
them for you?" Swift :)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Does killing time damage eternity?
--- Maximus 2.02
* Origin: The Perth Omen (3:690/660)
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|From: Rod Swift
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 27 Mar 97 10:29:14
EID:ca8d 227b53a0
MSGID: 3:690/660.0 3339db7a
* On 24-03-97 at 00:32, KEN YOUNG wrote to ROD SWIFT,
on the topic of "Cracker Barrel Boycot" in echo Holysmoke:
KY> DR> Measles is very easy to aquire. HIV is damn difficult: one
KY> DR> must work hard, statistically speaking, to aquire the virus
KY> DR> (if HIV is the contributory cause of AIDS).
KY> RS> You are correct. Quarantining of HIV would only make the
KY> RS> unquarantined population think that they are safe. Not that that
KY> RS> would make much difference if you listen to any US teenager who
KY> RS> thinks they are "immune" because "only the fags have it" because
KY> RS> they've been listening to the lies of the religious rig