God Damned Fundies!
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: FUNDY FROLICS 1/3
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:51:13
EID:786f 2282b660
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3342e2e1
-> On 31 Mar 97 02:04:41, Mark O'Neill got back to Ken Young
DH>> So is slavery ok?
KY> If the slaves gave up their freedom willingly, and actually chose to
be
KY> slaves,but only then.
MO> Oh dear. How many peoples do you know of that willingly traded
MO> freedom for slavery? Say after me, "I believe what I say. I believe
That comment of Henny, errrr, Kenny Young-boy does deserve a
place in the FAQ. Too bad he can't vote for it, as he decided
to become a slave...
... Ken Young believes that Laurie Appleton makes sense. Enough said.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:53:46
EID:b037 2282b6a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3342e37a
-> On 31 Mar 97 12:20:29, Ken Young got back to Jim Staal
> I belong to no death-cult.
KY> Tell me, how do you define "death cult?"
I'll spell it out for you, as it's only one word:
C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-I-T-Y
... Offering evidence to a fundy is like carrying coal to Newcastle
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: George Harper
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:03:22
EID:165a 22833060
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3343482a
-> On 28 Mar 97 04:01:00, Doug Schwandt got back to George Harper
DL> MO> dickhead.
DS> Aren't you glad we deal with such estute, articulate people, who are
^^^^^^
That's 'astute', dickhead.
... Creationism in schools? Sure. Right after Thermodynamics in church.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hit
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:18:16
EID:8a79 22833240
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33434ba8
-> On 31 Mar 97 07:45:58, Jim Staal got back to DAVID RICE
DR> Which is excellent, by the way. Don't piss sour grapes just
DR> because YOU failed so badly in public schools.
JS> Dave, I never attended public schools.
There is very little evidence from you that you attended
_any_ school.
... Fundy's fear god? More likely, they fear their god doesn't exist.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:24:30
EID:ff02 22833300
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33434d1e
-> On 31 Mar 97 19:15:44, Ken Young got back to Shelby Sherman
SS> I repeat, on what do you base your conclusion that sexual preference
is
SS> a choice?
KY> One of the things I base that on, is that many change their minds,
KY> later in life.
Finally decided you are Gay, huh?
Are you going to remain a Christian?
... Jimmy Swaggart's home for wayward girls: Paradise Motel!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:20:00
EID:7228 22836280
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 343e6da1
-=> Quoting George Harper to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, George.
MO> 011:021 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth
MO> upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap
MO> withal upon the earth;
MO>
MO> 011:022 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and
MO> the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind,
MO> and the grasshopper after his kind.
MO>
MO> 011:023 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet,
MO> shall be an abomination unto you.
MO>
GH> Check to make sure I haven't deleted any part of this quote,
Until you are caught actually using such stupid and underhanded tactics,
I'll trust you, George. I tend to expect the best from people, until
proven otherwise. There are many around here who have proven otherwise,
mind you (and most of those are on the other side of the argument from you,
due to the sheer weight of their numbers in this place).
GH> then tell me where verse 21 says there are ONLY four legs.
There's a better "explanation" for verse 21 (which we'll get to in a
moment), but the logic you are using here demands that you interpret the
plain statement in verse 23 "which have four feet" to really mean "which
have at least four feet"? I guess you have to do whatever it takes to
validate your beliefs, but I thought ADDING things to scripture is a no-
no. If they'd meant "at least four feet" they would have said "at least
four feet," wouldn't they?
But hold on a sec! This could solve a lot of problems. When the Bible
says God created the universe in 6 days, it really means "at least 6
days". So the fact that it really took 5,475,000,000,000 days is
not a contradiction for a literalist! Have you notified the ICR
of this great discovery of yours?
No? You mean in that case six means six, but in this case four means six?
GH> It says...PLAINLY... that they go on all four.
"Going on all four" (verse 21) could very well be just an idiomatic way
of
saying "creeping" or "crawling". When my kids were little, they used to
scoot around on all fours too, but they only have 2 feet (really!), so the
phrase may very well not have mathematical significance. I saw an
individual who was familiar with the Hebrew argue that point one time, and
I don't have any basis for rejecting that point of view.
However, verse 23 clearly mentions "which have four feet", a phrase which
does seem to be based on counting, rather than idiom.
GH> Can that be interpreted to say they have four legs? Surely.
Can it be interpreted otherwise?
GH> But it IS only implied,
No, it is plainly stated. "... which have four feet..."
GH> AND goes on to say they have LEGS above the FEET...
A very good good place to keep legs. Helps prevent the feet from falling
off. ;-)
GH> so that the allegation that
GH> there is a distinction between legs and feet DOES have basis of
GH> possibility.
I think we're all aware of the distinction between legs and feet. It's
good to see that the Bible confirms that legs and feet are different. But
that really is a bit of a red herring here. It's the NUMBER of feet (or
legs for that matter) that we're talking about.
GH> One interpretaion is as valid as another.
See what you have been reduced to, George? Now you are claiming that it
is just as valid to interpret four to mean six as it is to interpret
four to mean four. This is the sort of humour that makes it worth
putting up with all the garbage that passes for "discussion"
in this echo.
GH> God is NOT contradicting Himself, he's just saying "figure it out for
GH> yourself, stupid!"
So tell us when you figure it out, OK?
GH> *I* choose to accept the math <4 feet plus 2 jumping legs
GH> equals six pedal appendages> which puts the entire passage into a
GH> viable perspective.
It sounded like pretty contorted reasoning to me when I suggested it to
you, but you are entitled to use it if you wish. Now, show me how you can
use that same logic to explain the beetles (also mentioned in verse 22
along with the grasshoppers). They don't have 2 jumping legs, just 6 more
or less similar limbs.
Take care.
... It works better if you switch it on. (Anon.)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.09.03 (Registered)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: CE
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:20:00
EID:ab14 22836280
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 343e6db1
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Sue Armstrong <=-
Good morning, John.
JM> Some have suggested 1945 as the year the next era should begin,
JM> but I don't think it has yet.
If we act real quick, and get everyone to adopt that system in the next
year or two, we would be heros for solving the "Year 2000" problem. All
that software with two digit year fields would work for another 45 years
!
Take care.
... They jest at scars that never felt a wound. (Shakespeare)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.09.03 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Ken Greene
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Loons flying to roost...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 14:27:00
EID:b81a 22837360
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1823ff
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to All <=-
RS> Well, folks, it was inevitable. A local loon (whose name is
RS> being withheld until his next of kin can be told how stupid
RS> he was) decided a day or so ago to emulate the Heaven's Gate
RS> crowd. He put a plastic bag over his head and breathed
RS> propane until dead. He left a note saying that he wanted to
RS> go with the Heaven's Gate crowd on the comet.
RS> Can I get a big A-men! Are you with me, brothers and
RS> sisters?! GO HOME TO JESUS EARLY ON HALE-BOPP!
Have you looked at thier Web Sight?
... Ken.Greene@usa.net Fidonet 1:106/4015 GTPN 001/085 281-589-2991
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:02:56
EID:227d 22833040
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedb
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d7683
Doug Schwandt said "Educational Experienc" to Judith Bandsma, adding:
JB> KW> The ark was built out of rail road
JB> KW> ties!!! And
JB> And microwaved in soy sauce.
DS> Ah, yes! Those world-famous soy sauce soaked splinters brought
DS> to us by those who sought to publicly discredit ICR.
And who succeeded splendidly, owing to the ICR's oerweening
arrogance, gullibility, and utter lack of scientific acumen. When
one sets out to discredit something, it is always a help to pick a
target that actively participates in the process.
JB> KW> they're going to build a four lane high way up to it, with
JB> KW> a look out yet!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!
JB>It's already been built, Katherine. Didn't you know that. It
JB>even extends a few miles beyond the top of the mountain.
DS> Brought to you by Mr. Asholian, the man with the soy sauce
DS> soaked samples.
George Jamal was, I believe, the one who faked the "Ark"
samples, fobbed them off to Sun Productions, and later gave a
detailed account of the whole process. According to his account, the
producers were so eager to believe his "evidence" that not only did
they _not_ send it out for verification by an independent lab, they
did _not_ even ask him any questions about his story as probing as
those a parent might ask an adolescent about the events of the
latter's first date. Those who make "information" known to the
general public (in this case Sun Pictures) have the responsibilty of
verifying the accuracy thereof.
Later, you say to Marilyn Burge:
MB> DS> to its residents. Conversely, if your house caught fire,
MB> DS> would you expect the fire department to
MB>No, they pay taxes to fight fires and offer police protection to
MB>THEIR PERSONAL PROPERTY! Why should they get "two for a nickel"
MB>when the rest of us only get one?
DS> Remember that when you pay your next income tax bill and you realize
DS> that your employer hasn't paid a dime in in years. Yet, your employer
DS> is entitled to all the services the Federal Government can provide
DS> him.
Upon what evidence do you base your example? Who is Marilyn's
employer? How do you know that this person "hasn't paid a dime in in
years"? In what way is a tax cheat _entitled_ to government
services? A tax cheat might enjoy _benefitting_ from such services,
but he is not entitled to them. He is _entitled_ to 15-20 at
Leavenworth plus payment of back taxes and a whopping fine. But
before we can know what Marilyn's employer is entitled to, we must
know whether he has indeed a tax cheat or whether you are simply
(and not for the first time) blowing smoke out of your arse.
Which is it, Dougie Baby? Creamy Italian or Ranch?
Later still, you say to Marilyn Burge:
MB>INTENT in what he wrote. Read the Federalist Papers so you'll look
MB>like less of a fool.
DS> I may have to. Not because of your ending clause, but because I smell
DS> selective (mis)representation here.
Your personal scent to one side, _any_ information whatsoever
would improve your chances of appearing sentient.
MB>have the same amount of freedom. If you don't have freedom FROM
MB>those religions, you hardly have the freedom to practice the one
MB>you chose.
DS> Because I choose not to associate myself with other beliefs, I would
DS> hardly say that I am free of those religions. The only way to be
DS> truly free OF religion is to have NONE.
Really? Do you not consider yourself "truly free" of Hinduism?
"Truly free" of Shinto? "Truly free" of Santera? "Truly free" of
Scientology? In what ways are you shackled by those beliefs? I
rather suspect that you spend days, weeks, and months not giving any
of them a single thought, and I rather doubt you have sacrificed any
chickens lately, burned any incense at any shrines, or got "clear".
I would suspect that in truth you are truly free of that lot, but
you enjoy bullshitting us too much to admit it.
Creamy Italian or Ranch? Which for you?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: [1/2] Netmail Spam
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:43:59
EID:2d68 22833560
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedc
REPLY: 1:3603/210 547a5f97
ROBERT CURRY said "[1/2] Netmail Spam" to DON MARTIN, adding:
ro> Apparently-to: Don_Martin@f1000.n261.z1.fidonet.org
ro> From: rocket77@one.net
RC> This reminded me to check the netmail area, which I rarely
RC> if ever do, and I found the same junkmail sent to me by the
RC> same anonymous idiot.
DM> Isn't it wonderful to be remembered at this time of the
DM> year?
RC> April 1st?
And Rocket77 is just the fool for the job.
In another message, you say to a clone of his:
GH> Further, I refute any claims you make based on writings
GH> sympathetic to your philosophy on the grounds of their being
GH> mythology...
RC> You seem to have confused your own *modus operandi* of unthinking
RC> belief in ancient mythologies and books of superstition with the
RC> more thoughtful statements from those who do not appeal to such
RC> things.
Makes you wonder what this one might suppose the word "refute"
to mean, doesn't it?
GH> whether they predate the writings upon which I base my faith,
GH> or not...
RC> The _Epic of Gilgamesh_ for instance.
RC> Remember, it was Utnapishtim's ark first. :-)
Well, I have to admit that the Genesis authors got _one_ thing
right: "Noah" is a helluva lot easier to pronounce than
"Utnapishtim".
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: BOOK
|Date: 03 Apr 97 07:11:04
EID:dbfe 22833960
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedd
Roger Hunter said "BOOK" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> to use their real names. I would prefer, though, to have
DM> permissions and to use genuine identifications, particularly
DM> of the good stuff.
DM> As I get it together, I shall post pieces of it here for
DM> comments, corrections, suggestions, additions, etc.
DM> Comments?
RH> Excellent idea. Permission granted, in the unlikely event you
RH> find anything of mine worth using.
RH> Uh......You DO plan on sharing the royalties, don't you?
Hey, I've got my old age to think of (and at _my_ age, I don't
have all that much time in which to do so).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Loons flying to roost...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 08:09:47
EID:eade 22834120
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aede
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3341af22
Richard Smith said "Loons flying to roost..." to All, adding:
RS> Well, folks, it was inevitable. A local loon (whose name is
RS> being withheld until his next of kin can be told how stupid
RS> he was) decided a day or so ago to emulate the Heaven's Gate
RS> crowd. He put a plastic bag over his head and breathed
RS> propane until dead. He left a note saying that he wanted to
RS> go with the Heaven's Gate crowd on the comet.
RS> Can I get a big A-men! Are you with me, brothers and
RS> sisters?! GO HOME TO JESUS EARLY ON HALE-BOPP!
I don't know about you, but _I_ am rather impressed by any cult
that continues to recruit after the death of all its members. This
sort of thing keeps up, and Heaven's Gate will rank right up there
with christianity.
We can start making* reservations on the next cycle, 4,200 years
hence! (I know that that is a big hunk of time away, but it is still
a more precise Second Coming than the exceedingly vague one we keep
getting told about).
________
* Or better yet, _selling_.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Netmail
|Date: 03 Apr 97 08:15:27
EID:75d0 228341e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedf
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33414dba
I tried to answer your note, but my system said your node was
beyond its ken. Got an email address?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: George Harper
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Re: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:23:55
EID:e0f8 22835ae0
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f0bab99
TID: GE 1.1+
On 01 Apr 97 21:25:31, Ed Mills said the following to George Harper:
EM> EM> which resulted from early pedophilic lutheran indoctrination.
EM>
EM> As you know, the etymology and accepted definition of a word are,
EM> as often as not, disconnected to some degree:
EM>
EM> Pedophile: an adult who is sexually attracted to children.
EM> (World Book Dictionary)
EM>
EM> Yeah, it's definitely unsavory.
If you have/had proof that your pastor was a pedophile (which I suspect
is a
gross exaggeration, made for effect), why on earth would you NOT report
him
to your parents, or even the police? I certainly would have! But perhaps
I am putting more emphasis on this wording that you are comfortable with...
Not that I care about your comfort, since YOU posed such a lie as fact...
EM> EM> Understanding the criminality of inculcating the minds of little
EM> EM> kids with superstitious thought helps to overcome the brainwashing,
EM> EM> and listening to the believers has helped even more.
Again...if what was being done IS criminal, it is also actionable under
the
lawa protecting children. The only thing preventing YOU from being charged
under these laws is that most parents have the common sense to NOT allow
young
children to be exposed to your brand of theology. These charges would stem
from your espousal of the unfounded theologic teaching (i.e. superstition)
that there IS no god, and that persons who instruct young folk in a particular
faith are pedophilic, thereby causing them to fear and mistrust those
teachers.
EM> I've been aware of the criminality of christianic death-cult youth
EM> indoctrination for a long time. I don't remember when the first
EM> inkling came.
Read the above paragraph...again...and add the charge of libel, because
you
cannot prove that Lutheran's are a "christianic death-cult"...(*IF* they
were,
they would hardly indoctrinate the youth into those practices BEFORE the
youth were already committed to following the church's edicts where-ever
they
might lead...)
EM> The material being taught has no benefit, other than the control
EM> of the subject by the perpetrator of the superstition.
How many witnesses can you provide that can, under oath, state that they
were controlled by Christ, or Martin Luther for that matter, INVOLUNTARILY.
(Even *I* will admit to submitting to Christ's teachings, God's Will,
and that I accept the good Doctor's Books Of Concord as a guideline for
my beliefs..and that such submission is voluntary). I can present several
witnesses to support the viewpoint opposite of yours.
EM> There was no candy, no feel-good things. Just the filthy mental
EM> abuse of your cohorts in child abuse.
AGAIN: Put up or shut up! Read the paragraph dealing
with the legal recourse available for even SUSPECTED criminal actions.
IF
you have proof, follow the path indicated. If, as I suspect, these
allegations are total fabrications intended to defame a particular church
body, or an individual, I suggest that you write a retraction and publish
it in this echo. Otherwise, *I* DO have the ability to determine who taught
you your catechism, so I *WILL* be able to inform him, if he still lives,
of your charges in a public international echo.
EM> EM> Yes, it's a great service you fundies are providing here. You're
EM> EM> helping me connect the dots by providing real-world confirmation
EM> GH> another indication of arrested mental development: plays childish
EM> GH> games as a means of coping...receives confirmation from the
EM> GH> dots...calls them Reality...
EM> Condescension works much better when it relates to the intent of
EM> that which it is directed at. Absent that, it serves no purpose
EM> but to belie deficient reading comprehension. Just thought
EM> you'd like to know. :-)
Just dealing with what you described as the value of the information
input by the "fundies" (To Wit: "helping me connect the dots" - indicating
that you are indeed pursuing a childish pastime). Seems to me to fit your
intent to a "T"...
EM> EM> of religious deceit, confirmation that gradually piles up along-
EM> EM> side the failed brainwashing put there years ago by your ilk
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I read this as:
"brainwashing = religious education" replaced by "brainwashing = a
large volume container of fecal matter devised by those unwilling to
accept accountability for their own self-indulgences"
If I am wrong, please prove the validity of the belief system which you
have
substituted for the teachings of your parents and pastor.
EM> what's child abuse. Adults who buy the shit deserve to be
EM> misinformed.
I repeat...if it is child abuse, it is illegal...do something about it.
BUT - remember my threat to inform your pastor that you called him a
pedophile, and that you accuse the entire Lutheran Church of child abuse through forcible christian education.
I sincerely hope that your ACLU lawyers are adequate to the challenge you
will
put before them...though I doubt you will find any of them willing to
accept your case...BECAUSE I HAVE YOUR ORIGINAL MESSAGE ON FILE AS PROOF
OF LIBEL, making your position indefensible enough to scare them off.
EM> GH> And, yes, because our writings have gotten you to return to reading
EM> GH> the Bible, our mission has been accomplished very nicely, thank
you!
EM>
EM> Those delusions meld almost seamlessly with each other. The
EM> insidiousness of it is rather impressive. I can see how persons
EM> of average cranial capacity could be seduced by this.
Thank you. I am presuming you are hinting at an above-average cranial
capacity {your interpretation = above-average intelligence; my interpretation
is that you are hyper-cephalic/have a swelled head), which follows having
such
a "crock" implanted by your atheistic masters.
EM> Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me, boy. ;-)
They ARE amusing, tho!!! At least *I* am having fun!
EM> Sorry!
Apology needless, but accepted!
hehehehehe
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:47:53
EID:59d1 22834de0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33440542
Hi Alan.
On 02 Apr 97 20:29:37, Alan Hess penned the following to John Musselwhite
re: AHEM???
JM> While the Jews may say that, there are very large "Jews for
JM> Jesus" and "British Israelite" movements here in Calgary.
JM> Are they not "Christian Jews", Alec?
AH> No, they are Christians, period. They believe in the divinity of
AH> Jesus, which is the definition of Christian. Jews do not believe
AH> Christ, if he existed at all, was anything more than an ordinary man,
AH> and certainly don't accept the Christian belief that he was the
AH> Messiah. They can't have it both ways - the two are mutually
AH> exclusive.
Messianic Jews have existed since the beginnings of the
religion, Alan. This particular crop differs little from
those who lived and died thousands of years ago except for the
one they chose as their Anointed One.
For that matter there are "Christians" who don't believe in the
divinity of Jesus too. You can point fingers and say they
aren't True Christians or that the British Israelites
aren't really Jews, but a person's beliefs are between them and
their God. If they don't pick your pocket or break your nose
they can call themselves whatever they want.
RevJohn
... "We are here to fart around and nothing else." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Michael Gothreau
|Sub: Dead god
|Date: 03 Apr 97 10:01:44
EID:0b8c 22835020
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33440543
REPLY: 1:134/67.6 10b25f70
Hi Michael...
On 03 Apr 97 08:25:29, Michael Gothreau penned the following to John Musselwhite
re: Dead god
JM> Your origin line threw me, Judith (Newcastle, ON)... I thought
JM> maybe you'd moved to God's Country! LOL!
MG>
MG> Newcastle, ON? John, you dissapoint me. Everybody knows that God's
MG> country is Nova Scotia, not Ontario...
I was refering to Canada in general, Michael. Everyone is aware
that there is no separation of C&S anywhere here.
MG> Haven't you ever listened to any Hank Snow?
I've managed to avoid him, mostly. Too busy listening to the
late Wilf Carter (known as Montana Slim even though he was from
Alberta). God... I wish she'd turn that crap down upstairs!
I consider Country & Western to be the Special Olympics of
music. What my wife hears in it is beyond me!
John
... Whizzing and pasting and pooting through the day...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: Michael Gothreau
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Dead god
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:53:05
EID:727e 228366a0
MSGID: 1:134/67.6 60522bd7
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 33440543
*In reference to a post left by John Musselwhite on 03 Apr 97...
* Addressed to Michael Gothreau
* Greetings John, and may this find you in good health...
* ***********************************************************
MG> Newcastle, ON? John, you dissapoint me. Everybody knows that
MG> God's country is Nova Scotia, not Ontario...
JM> I was refering to Canada in general, Michael. Everyone is
JM> aware that there is no separation of C&S anywhere here.
Hehehehehe... can't blame me for being a little partisan...
MG> Haven't you ever listened to any Hank Snow?
JM> I've managed to avoid him, mostly. Too busy listening to the
JM> late Wilf Carter (known as Montana Slim even though he was
JM> from Alberta). God... I wish she'd turn that crap down
JM> upstairs!
I know what you mean. My dad was a Hank Snow fan and my mom
listened to Jim Reeves. Get me drunk and I can play & sing most of
those old Jim Reeves tunes (which will explain amply why I drink so
little).
JM> I consider Country & Western to be the Special Olympics of
JM> music. What my wife hears in it is beyond me!
Heheheheheheh... she IS a nut ;-)
if...
Michael Gothreau http://mypage.direct.ca/g/gothreau/
gothreau@direct.ca
... Jesus died for our sins. Don't let him have died in vain. Commit them!
--- PPoint 2.02
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:15:20
EID:a3e7 228299e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e092ba
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89f5dd09
LA> S.J. Gould admits that phyletic gradualism was NEVER seen
LA> in the rocks and he also admits that there is NO EVIDENCE in
LA> the rocks for his Punctuated Equilibria, doesn't he?
Then why does the famous creationist Laurie Appleton say:
"That is one of the joys of evolutionism isn't it? Since
it ... makes a Creator superfluous, that leaves you
free."
"It provides a motivation for accepting evolution."
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:22:16
EID:692c 22829ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0a56f
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 16383539
MG>>What is the direct relationship between homosexual orientation
MG>>and inability to raise children?
KS> An interesting question, considering that presumably every
KS> homosexual person is a direct result of a heterosexual
KS> activity.
It's just that the fundies don't have a prayer on showing that persons of
ANY sexual preference are better at raising kids.
They MIGHT make a case for heterosexual parents based on some psychological
theory. I don't know yet.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: Re: Randi
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:24:25
EID:c9b9 22829b00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0aa1f
CB> i thought Fred had charge of the goat? [grin]
He certainly is, but Steve is in charge of the BBQ.
>> Er....what kind of cigars would you send?
CB> what kind [other than Cuban] would be acceptable?
A nice H. Upmann either in the #20000 or the Columbo size would be good.
Send several as Leipzig is coming over this weekend and I don't wnat to
run out. :-)
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: RE: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:27:49
EID:cf2b 22829b60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0b343
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333bfa1c
KY>> I find it sick and immoral, but it should be legal.
MG>> Do you find child abuse sick and immoral? Do you wnat
MG>> laws against it? If so, why is this different from
MG>> sodomy?
KY> Different is that when a child is abused, it is not what the
KY> child wants. But with sodomy, it is usually not forced.
KY> Unreasonable force should not be allowed, but most things as long
KY> as all parties agree to it, should be allowed.
I'm glad you think it should be legal and that the government shouldn't
be peeking into the bedrooms of consenting adults.
Now does homosexual anal sex disgust you more than heterosexual anal sex?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:31:22
EID:685b 22829be0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0bdb4
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333bface
KY>>> No, I mean ORGANIZED prayer.
MG>> Because, a public school is a government instiution and
MG>> the government is not allowed to promote any religion.
MG>> Read the Constitution.
KY> Actually, if you want to get specific, the Constitution uses the
KY> word "Congress." And last I checked, schools weren't a synonym
KY> for Congress.
The interpretation of this amendment is that no government agency will promote
any religion. All religious practice will be limited to the person.
Maybe we'll have your kids in school recite Hebrew prayers next time there
is an organized (forced) prayer recited. Would you like that?
KY> Okay.. The postal service is also part of the govt., but does
KY> that mean no religious materials should be allowed to go through
KY> the mail?
The post office is not promoting religion. It does not promote credit cards
by delivering ads for them either.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Homosexuality
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:34:42
EID:855f 22829c40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0ce03
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333c5de6
MG>> "The American Psychiatry Association has removed
MG>> homosexuality from it's list of disorders...and has
KY> And what do they base this on?
They base it on interviews with thousands of homosexual men and women.
Most mental pathology makes it impossible to make the person function in
society. Homosexuality does not qualify under this definition. The problem
with homosexuality in society is with persons like yoruself, not with homosexuals.
MG>> "If called upon to counsel a homosexual, the
MG>> physician's approach should in no way differ from the
MG>> approach to a heterosexual. No attempt should bemade
MG>> to try and direct him inot a heterosexual behaviro
MG>> unless he specifically requests such help."
KY> Again, opinions..
KY> And what if the person isn't gay, after all, and just thought he
KY> was due to his circle of friends.
That's right, Jelly. Ask for evidence. I present evidence. then note
that it is an "opinion", justr like the "opinion" that the Earth is round.
This is taken from a standard medical text of Internal Medicine that is
used to teach students and treat patients. It is just as unbiased on this
as it is on which antibiotics to treat Syphilis with.
MG>> that psychiatry recommends for it is due to assholes
MG>> like true xtians that claim that the gays won't be
MG>> going to heaven.
KY> Tell me, are there any sexually related disorders? Or are they
KY> all to be accepted as normal?
You bet there are. Someone who must have sex with children comes to mind.
Tell me if this precludes them from functioning in society. You bet it
does. Does homosexuality? Outside of those that condemn it for no reason,
it does not.
KY> Again, you have stated opinions from professionals, but no
KY> medical facts.
KY> Homosexuality may not be a disease, but it is a disorder, just
KY> like any deviancy.
You need to learn about evidence and how it is gathered. You cannot just
claim this to be opnion. It shows lack of intelligence to do so.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:49:05
EID:742e 22839e20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee1296
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 8dbd0595
AH>> No, he becomes a Christian, which is non-Jewish. Judaism is
AH>> a religion, not a race.
MB> It's also an ethnic identity, dimbulb. My son-in-law is an
MB> atheistic Jew. Like it or lump it. There are literally
MB> hundreds of thousands of them worldwide.
I must disagree. While you might consider yourself jewish AND atheist,
Judaism is strictly a religion. I do not consider myself any more jewsih
that the pope, but was born into the faith.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Lest we forget the dumbasses abroad
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:56:40
EID:d5fb 22839f00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee229a
REPLY: 1:123/67 333eabe1
SS> CUTUD, Philippines (Reuter) - Devout Christians had themselves
SS> nailed to wooden crosses while others beat their own backs with
SS> whips in a bloody re-enactment of Jesus Christ's crucifixion on
SS> Good Friday nearly 2,000 years ago.
Ha Ha...morons.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:57:42
EID:b530 22839f20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee270f
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 940fa250
SS>> 1KI 7:23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape,
SS>> measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high.
SS>> It took a line of thirty
SS>> cubits to measure around it. [24] Below the rim, gourds
JS> Like I said, I have seen Pi anywhere in the Bible.
The intelligent man can look at these statements and understand them. With
responses like the one above, you make me wonder if you have any smarts
at all.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Lou Dripkin
|To: Scott Taylor
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:02:30
EID:8f27 2283a040
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee2ff3
REPLY: 3:800/432.0 333c066e
MG>> They obviously had seen some of my college dates.
ST> THAT, or Tasmania was founded by Dripkins
The devil you say....
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Harry Truman.
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:03:04
EID:2b37 2283a060
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee3805
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89fd5c5f
MG>> Then why does the famous creationist Laurie Appleton say:
LA> Famous eh? Why do you say that? Are you suggesting that I
LA> have upset more evolutionists than anyone else on this Echo?
MG>> "That is one of the joys of evolutionism isn't it? Since
MG>> it ... makes a Creator superfluous, that leaves you
MG>> free."
MG>> "It provides a motivation for accepting evolution."
LA> S.J. Gould admits that phyletic gradualism was NEVER seen
LA> in the rocks and he also admits that there is NO EVIDENCE in
LA> the rocks for his Punctuated Equilibria, doesn't he?
I see, that in that timy fragment of brain lodged in that thick hominid
skull of yours, you have finally seen my point.
Quoting people from context is lying. Making Laurie Appleton into an evolutionist
(or even a human) is lying just as badly as mkaing gould sound like he supports
creationism.
Your lies have been repeatedly exposed as frauds. Repeatedly. Why do you
continue.
And now, on a more personal basis, Dr. Leipzig and myself were chatting
the other evening ont he telephone ( a communication device used in civilized
countries) and just wondered how old you were.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: ACT LIKE A CHRISTIAN
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:06:41
EID:7491 2283a0c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee3eb4
BW> ROTFL! I didn't claim that Carl Sagan supported creationism, you
BW> twit! I merely agreed with Sagan when he admitted that the fossil
BW> record could be consistent with a designer. And more importantly,
BW> it would be more logical to believe with "a Designer of a
BW> more remote and indirect temperament."
Liar.
> > HP> Yo, Bill -- you can say it all you want, but around here you
> > HP> have to demonstrate it. Provide evidence. Remember, you said
> > HP> in DR_DEBUG that you could easily convince anyone of this.
> > HP> Time to put up or shut up.
> > BW> Okay where do you want me to start? How about with Carl
> > BW> Sagan? In his book Cosmos, he candidly admits "The fossil
> > BW> evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
> > BW> Designer."
> HP> Carl goes on to say that it would have to be an idiotic "great
> HP> designer" and that there's a better explanation -- natural
> HP> selection -- that matches the facts better.
BW>Oh really?
BW>Proof got in there because that is all the evolutionists have as far
BW>as proof goes.
BW>Carl Sagan didn't claim that evolution had positively had taken
BW>place!
There it is, Billy. In all it's glory. Billy Wolff, the creationist makes
an ass of himself. with each passing minute you make an even bigger ass
of yourself. Keep it up. It's most amusing, Factualist.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:29:46
EID:f42e 22838ba0
MSGID: 1:229/622 3343e90b
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 77dd8b5b
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> J.J. complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Doug <=-
JH> I'll admit there are a number of folk who will agree that
JH> self-castration is a worthwhile activity, but I'm not one
JH> of them.
ROFL
You can't think of one or 2 that it would fit the designation
'worth-while'?
JH> 39 people to keep? You think they found some dirty pictures of
JH> Janet Reno or something?
What an OBSCENE idea. You really do have a warped mind.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:38:00
EID:11e4 22834cc0
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> As soon as you prove I do not hold a promissory note for $1 million
RH> signed by you and now overdue. Pay up!
GH> *IF* I indeed signed it, it will be possible to prove in a court of
GH> law. With a million dollars at stake, surely you don't mind paying off
GH> some poor beknighted soul to perjure himself to attest to the
GH> authenticity of my signature. However, what will you do about the
GH> demand for finger print identification??? Or did you work for the
GH> Arvada Police Department
But George, you're asking me to prove I have it. I asked you to prove I
DON'T.
Big difference, which is the point I was making.
GH> while at the USGS, so you have another convenient friend that can
GH> steal my fingerprints from some file? If you have a set of prints,
GH> burn them because the only place anyone could have obtained a set of
GH> prints like that
GH> would be from a highly-restricted Government file...or is HE the one
GH> who stole my wallet?
RH> Since I worked at the USGS, which is located on the Mines campus,
RH> I can unequivocally state that you are full of shit.
GH> That's like claiming "I know Col. Sanders' secret recipe because I eat
GH> a ton of his chicken...shit, I'm smart!" OOOPS...the fundy said a
GH> *BAD* WORDDDD!! hehehehe
Tsk, tsk. God will get you for that. And that was a bad analogy you
gave. It's more like saying "I know the secret recipe because I
worked there."
GH> As stated above...to read my commentary on this, and many other claims
GH> made in this echo by myself or other participants...go find the
GH> dialogue between Richard Smith and myself..Richard has offered to be
GH> Speaker for [the brain]Dead...as befits his position in an alternate
GH> religious persuasion
GH> that believes in a correlative force/being who is diametrically
GH> opposed to both sides of this debate.
I saw it and agreed with the choice. But I see him as an arbiter, not
a conduit. I will address you directly, he can judge between us in
matters of truth and accuracy.
... Blind people don't bungee jump; it scares the dog too much.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CLONES
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:39:00
EID:c20b 22834ce0
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> ... Don't worry - Cthulhu LIKES your sense of humor.
GH> I *AM* aware of that...he is one of my Co-SysOp's...tho even HE has
GH> given up hope of teaching YOU the finer points of basic theistic
GH> dogma.
Don't worry about it. I'm well versed in your mythology.
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:48:00
EID:3cc8 22834e00
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
GH> The UNDERSTANDING of science has changed, perhaps, but NOT the
GH> science itself...
Perhaps you mean the methods do not change? But the theories
certainly change, to accomodate new information.
GH> And I'm retired from the U.S. Air Force...but *I* never "flew" a
GH> plane, altho I have operated a few computers.
It's a large organization.
GH> I visited the `quake center, and my grandchildren were duly impressed
GH> by all the pretty flashing lights! What a marvelous skill it must
be
GH> to be able to make all those light bulbs flash at random intervals!
GH> One thing escapes me, though...what IS their connection to reality?
Oh, I'm sure you did not understand that .
GH> If USGS is so "UP" on things geologic and seismologic, why weren't the
GH> people in Los Angeles better warned about the Monster Quake about 3
GH> years ago??? BEFORE
GH> your boss had to be told about it by the media calling for data?
Damn, you really are ignorant, aren't you.
Quakes can't be predicted yet. We know pretty much WHERE but not
WHEN they will happen.
And it takes time to locate one from seismogram readings, whereas
anyone IN one knows it has happened immediately.
GH> Look at Roger Blush!!! Is THAT why you retired??? Gee, I'm
GH> Sorry!!!
Yes, you are.
... SENILE.COM found . . . Out Of Memory . . .
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: MAXI-POST
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:52:00
EID:b8a6 22834e80
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Matter of fact, I take potshots at the Pagans once in awhile, just
RH> to even things out a bit.
GH> I see what Richard means when he says he has something to lose on the
GH> atheist side as well...idiot followers like you...
Followers? ME? Well, I follow the truth wherever it leads, if that's
what you have in mind.
RH> No. We know you are a liar.
GH> And you don't realize I know that you are a liar, as well? Can you
GH> say "out of touch with reality?"
Can you provide any evidence for that assertion? If not, you are
a liar once again.
... Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.- Randi
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:59:00
EID:a4e7 22834f60
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Roger Hunter <=-
MB> Shared needles are a choice that is entirely within the control
MB> of the individual, as is taking needle drugs to begin with.
Agreed. I spoke too quickly, there.
MB> The odds of finding a rapist who is also HIV+ aren't that
MB> good; it is certianly no greater than the risk of being
MB> shot by a mugger. We all assume risks that result simply
MB> from living in close proximity to other human beings. A
MB> risk that small is certainly no reason to set up concentration
MB> camps that hold literally hundreds of thousand (and possibly
MB> millions) of human beings that have committed no crime of
MB> any kind for which they have been convicted.
True, but not the point. Cars kill many more each year but we
don't ban them; we NEED them. We don't need carriers of fatal
illness running around loose.
MB> The cost of testing every human being in this country alone
MB> makes your hare-brained scheme ill-advised.
And how much is YOUR life worth?
RH> But no, I'm saying government should protect us from the
RH> criminally stupid, who run around spreading fatal illnesses.
MB> From which we have the ability to protect ourselves.
Shall we fire the cops because you can protect your own life?
Get rid of firemen because you can put out a fire?
These ARE government functions.
RH> And that IS a proper function for government.
MB> No, it isn't. It isn't the responsibility of Government
MB> to protect us from the hazards of everyday life, nor is
MB> it the responsibility of Government to protect us from
MB> our own stupidity.
Not our own; other people's.
RH> ....File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
MB> Why not, you're faking intelligence and love of freedom.
Ouch! I'm SO hurt...
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Mark O'neill
|Sub: HA!
|Date: 03 Apr 97 10:24:00
EID:9c5e 22835300
-=> Quoting Mark O'neill to Jim Staal <=-
JS> Are you just the exception or are all gays minds on
JS> filthy illicit sex all the time?
MO> Evidence for "filthy, illicit sex" is?
Ahem... while I hate to agree with Staal on anything, he is right
here, if we are discussing anal sex. It's a matter of definition
and law. The interior of the colon cannot be totally clean
and such acts are illegal in many states already.
... Of course I'm sane. The voices said so.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Sally Springett
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:34:00
EID:97ae 22833440
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ a2778b1e
JH> Where are the weapons? Doomsday folks traditionally love
JH> haveing large (huge) arsenals. So far, there hasn't been any
JH> mention of weapons. But something tells me (no, not voices
JH> from space, just my own intuition) that there ought to be lots
JH> and lots of weapons.
You called it! They found the weapons in rented storage. There
didn't seem to be a huge number but they DID find weapons belonging
to the group.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 2613/313 5 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 02 Apr 97 07:55:00
EID:e323 22823ee0
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f85
Dan Ceppa, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Karen
Davis
-> On 24 Mar 97 14:44:37, Karen Davis got back to Ken Wiens
KW> I see for abortion are if it is necessary to save
KW> the life of the mother by so doing.
KD> So you would execute a 12 year old who sought an abortion for a
KD> pregnancy caused by incest?
DC> Why does the movie _China Town_ seem to ring a bell?
Just a hunch...the same reason "Quasimodo" does?
... "Geez, Tolkien couldn't follow this plot!" -Crow, "Cave Dwellers" ___
Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
* Origin: CHANNEL Q 281-589-2991 (1:106/4015.0)
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 106/4015 2001 2000 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Ewlmer Fudd
|Sub: Hunting churches
|Date: 02 Apr 97 07:57:00
EID:aa0f 22823f20
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f86
Ewlmer Fudd, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Damien
Wellman
-> On 27 Mar 97 16:11:30, Damien Wellman got back to Marilyn Burge
FR> Ken Young Jelly> And no, currently I am church hunting..
FR> Just imagine the lucky church he finds.
MB> What I want to know is how many points you get for bagging a church.
DW> CHURCH SEASON!
DW> TEMPLE SEASON!
DW> CHURCH SEASON!!
DW> TEMPLE SEASON!!
DW> (Shades of Daffy and Bugs...)
EF> Blwammmm! It's Mosque Season! hehehehehehehe
Ashram season!
... "Jesse, as a paleoanthropologist, you'd be a great pastry chef." -MRL
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
* Origin: CHANNEL Q 281-589-2991 (1:106/4015.0)
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 106/4015 2001 2000 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Profanity 01
|Date: 02 Apr 97 07:58:00
EID:0864 22823f40
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f87
Katherine Wintersnight, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to,
said to Judith Bandsma
JB>-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith
KW> <=-
JB> KW> They're just waiting for you to turn your back. Somehow, I feel,
the
JB> KW> B*** Council is involved!
JB>Now you've gone and done it.
KW> Uh......what blue council?
The ones with the black helicopters.
... Cheeses of Nazareth: New age Deli in Jerusalem ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: MEGGEROMANIA
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:06:00
EID:3e37 2283a8c0
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f88
Ed Mills, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Martin
Goldberg
EM> while (insert vocational humor here), Martin Goldberg said to Ed
EM> Mills:
EM> The Lexus-fondler who nails me on my bike is well advised to make
EM> damn sure that the `accident' disables my index finger. ;-)
MG> I get ten extra point if I can hit them and leave them in an open
MG> sewer.
EM> Yeah, but how many feet per second can a Lexus go?
32,000.
But you have to set the charges *just* right...
... Cicero in a sushi bar: "O tempura! O morays!" ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:19:00
EID:c78b 2283aa60
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f89
Judith Bandsma, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to
Christopher Hughes
-=> Christopher complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Ken
<=-
> You can read a recent work confirming this called "Darwin's Black Box."
CH> Haven't read it, will look for it. More stuff to laugh at.
JB>
JB> That's one Mike Hardy was heavily espousing...and then backed off of
JB> when he found that it didn't really hold water.
Like a clepsydra.
... Well, there's Sb, As, Al, Se; Sr, Ca, P, and Rh; Ni, Nd, Np, Ge... ___
Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: News Article
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:34:00
EID:ef6c 2283ac40
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f8a
J.j. Hitt, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to All
JH> On Apr 01 23:15 97, J.C. Kibler of 1:203/9046 wrote:
JK> This was found on the Science echo
JK> REUTERS, March 31, 1997
JH> (Note the date.)
JK> Marl T. Geipizy, head of geology at Turkey's Bzurkturk
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ JK> University,
MY COUSIN!
... "Benighted idiot? You're soaking in it!"
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Why I am a WOA
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:22:29
EID:1159 228332c0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 64e0c91b
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e912b48
On (02 Apr 97) George Harper babbled to Marilyn Burge...
MB> ever since like that is where I truly belong. There's no lonely
MB> gods, just concerned, happy, productive people who believe
MB> stronly in helping their fellow human beings. Right here on
MB> Earth. With no heavenly rewards, but just the reward of knowing
MB> they have done something helpful for another human being.
MB> ... Fundamentalism is merely stupidity raised to a higher power.
GH> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
GH> as opposed to "concerned, happy, productive people" [sounds like a
GH> communist travel and immigration brochure to me]. Have you ever
GH> watched/read SOYLENT GREEN? The "perfect society" you describe could
GH> be a direct paraphrase of parts of that work...purely fictional, of
GH> course.
No way! We help other people because we love humanity, as opposed
to thinking they were born evil and incapable of helping themselves
without the "aid" of some imaginary superfriend.
There is nothing communistic about finding joy in helping others
for the sheer sake of helping. No "eternal" rewards, no Eye in
the Sky zapping us if we don't help. Just the sheer joy of seeing
another human being get beyond the stumbling block that currently
impedes their own joyful journey through life.
... Can we pay $5 million to *make* God take Oral Roberts home?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:53:17
EID:b607 228336a0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 d93548f1
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ b0c57702
On (28 Mar 97) Sally Springett babbled to George Harper...
SS> A bat is defined as a mammal because it has fur rather than
SS> feathers and reproduces as other mammals do rather than
SS> laying eggs. Your
No, what defines a mammal is nursing its young. (Ya know:
mammaries and all that.)
... The secret of flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 03 Apr 97 07:00:53
EID:6f18 22833800
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 bd43bfb0
REPLY: 1:105/24.12 c559cc73
On (29 Mar 97) Ed Mills babbled to Rod Swift...
EM> while (insert vocational humor here), Rod Swift said to Ken Wiens:
RS> Oh yes! I love performing abortions too. If you partially birth
RS> them, the foetuses scream as you pierce the backs of their neck.
RS> I even suck out the brains by siphoning it out with my mouth.
RS> It allows one to blow it back in and hence scramble the brains
RS> before finally removing them!
EM> Apparently I'm going to have to work a little harder to keep
EM> the title of "most disgusting motherfucker on the echo." :-)
He's describing how fundies are made.
... FUNDAMENTALISM is never having to open your mind.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 03 Apr 97 08:23:01
EID:7db1 228342e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442266
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A348
Solving the Riddle of the Sphincter, KY said "Court Records" to Sean
Coldren, adding:
> > > FR> Thanks in advance, homophobic pig!
> > > Evidence?
> > Evidence? Now, you know perfectly well they have a problem with
> > things that.
> Boy Ken.... They are really getting to know you. :) Homophobic
> pig.... well they got the homophobic thing right, but not the pig
> part. For as much as we disagree on stuff, including the Gay
> issue, I don't think of you as a pig. A very..... stubborn, thick
> headed, person, but not a pig. :)
KY> You would be right, except why would I be afraid of gays? Am I
KY> afraid of you? Hardly.. So how am I this fictional
KY> "homophobic?"
Homophobia is the fear of homosexual tendencies within
_oneself_, and not the fear of them in others. It is typically
expressed by a hatred of, or violence toward, others who display
those feared tendencies.
KY> That would make as much sense as you being afraid of someone
KY> because he was a Christian.
A parallel "Christophobia" would be my fearing that _I_ was in
danger of becoming a Christian. Not something I lose much sleep
over.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Spiritual Autoeroticism
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:04:09
EID:d491 22834880
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442267
FYI: Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, one of the Pope's closest
advisors, said to the French weekly, L'Express, "Buddhism is a sort
of spiritual autoeroticism." (Time, April 7, 1997, p 21)
Who says that gays are the only ones who try to sexualize
everything? Let's hear it for the nominally celibate suits of a
sort of spiritual circle jerk!
Well, circle jerks _are_ more communal than individual
meditation I can hear the Christers chirping . . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:15:26
EID:151e 228389e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442dfb
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e970818
George Harper said "Portals Of Prayer Apr 2" to All, adding:
GH> Wednesday Apr 2
GH> CLOSE TO HIM
GH> IN THE SAME WAY, COUNT YOURSELVES DEAD TO SIN BUT ALIVE TO GOD IN
GH> CHRIST JESUS Romans 6:11
GH> When we are separated from a loved one we feel sad and lonely.
OK, who sent the fundy into Mootherfucker mode?
Now we'll get loads of this spam for months until he says
something nasty to Rod Swift and disappears in a puff of tracts.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: News Article
|Date: 03 Apr 97 16:49:48
EID:dcb3 22838620
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442dfc
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 77dea092
J.J. Hitt said "News Article" to All, adding:
JK> Marl T. Geipizy, head of geology at Turkey's Bzurkturk
JK> University, estimates the age of the 'cross' at more than
JK> 1800 years.
JH> Bezerk Turk University?!?!
You don't see a Marty Leipzig possibility anagrammed into that
department head?*
_______
* Naval term for executive john.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Book Specimen 2
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:09:35
EID:f35b 22838920
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442dfd
Here is a second installment of the introduction (I am really
warming to the subject of me)!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But by the time I arrived at the state of adolescence, I
was so put off by the wide discrepancies between the claims
of Christians and their observed behavior that I regarded
joining them as too a great a price to pay for a share of
their community power. I did take one last fling at a Sunday
School held at a community hall near Bangor, but that was
more out of a hopeless lust for Jackie and Jerry Yatsonoff
who attended there than it had to do with any deities.
Jackie and Jerry were equally amiable and darkly lovely:
their Russian surnames had come through Alaska, acquiring
some, I think, Aleut in passage. They were equally lovely,
being identical twins, and I yearned for them equally, too:
either or both would have done me a treat. Had either of
them offered to hold my hand, I probably would have come to
Christ on the spot, but since neither did, I found the
weekly readings from the Gospel According to St. John
(pamphlet edition) by some terribly earnest person with
stringy hair too great a price to pay for attendence.
Ah, Jackie (or Jerry), what a chance was there missed to
bring a sinner into the fold! I am afraid I really was not
very much of a sinner at the time, but with Jerry (or
Jackie), I was certainly willing to learn. Sadly, these were
the days before Jack Chick Publications had made whoring for
Christ a popular activity for young believers, so Jackie,
Jerry, and I retained our respective virginities, vis a vis
one another, to this very day.
I remain, however, open to offers.
In my high school, secular interests prevailed. I
suppose that if asked, most students would have identified
themselves as christians, just as they would have identified
themselves as white (Silverdale acquired its first black
family around 1954): it was not something that most people
bothered to spend much time thinking about. The lower-case
"c" is deliberate, incidentally: "christians" are to me
decent, ordinary people who try to get through life as best
they can and who display a Bible in the living room. I
reserve "Christians" to denote people interested in
inflicting their theological notions on others: the Reverend
Mister Nazarinus was indubitably a Christian.
In any event, I managed to avoid Christians pretty much
by having no discernable social life whatsoever during those
years, even though computers had not then been invented. My
father was trying to launch his own electric company, like
every other former Navy Yard employee after the reductions
following the WWII, so our family's hold on a middle-class
income was tenuous, at best. I had a job, putting myself, as
it were, through high school. Actually, it was one of the
best jobs I have ever had: I was an apprentice printer in a
country print shop, where I learned a craft closer to what
Shakespeare knew than what goes on in printshops today.
After my first year, I was setting two full-page ads every
week (by hand, using moveable type just like Guttenberg's)
for the newspaper, The Silverdale Breeze, and I did job
printing from typesetting, paper cutting, making the platen
press ready, and running off the work (again, by hand, one
at a time). There are, I submit, precious few jobs in which
a 15-year-old kid gets to produce a professional product
from beginning to end: doing this was a source of great
pride and confidence to me. I learned a craft, which I later
learned is a word derived from the German Kraft. It means
strength, and it felt that way to me--I felt stronger
because I was able to do something worthwhile.
Another strength that came from The Silverdale Breeze
was emotional. The place was family; in some ways it was a
better family than the one I had been born into. We cared
about each other and we depended upon each other: everything
that got done was produced by four persons: the owner,
George T. Harrison, Jr., who did every task in the shop, his
wife, Zoe, who wrote the copy, proofread, and kept the
books, Rolen Malde, a journeyman printer who did most of the
linotyping and ran the flatbed newspaper press, and myself.
We all worked and worked hard, and we loved it. It was a
great place for a kid to be, and I miss them dearly.
And there was another strength arising from this job: to
be a printer is to lose any notion that because something
is "in black and white" it is, somehow, the TRVTH. Printers
know that stuff gets into black and white because somebody
has paid them to put it there: the only way to tell the
bullshit from the genuine is to read it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
(more, of course, to come).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Religious Tyranny Amendment
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:35:34
EID:5d33 22836460
MSGID: 1:18/14 3343EA66
PID: GenMsg 5.00 [0002]
Date: 03 Apr 97 17:35:34 UTC
* Copy of message posted via A_THEIST
* Date: 03 Apr 97 12:29:14
* From: Christopher Baker
* To: All
* Message text was not edited!
From: Rbargodnow@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:26:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Religious Tyranny Amendment
Dear Mr. Baker,
Here is a column I wrote for the American Atheist Newsletter re:RFA
You may circulate based on the conditions at the bottom of this short
essay.
THE PROPOSED "RELIGIOUS FREEDOM" AMENDMENT
a brief overview by Ronald J. Barrier
American Atheists, Inc.
On March 24, 1997, Rep. Ernest J. Istook, Jr. (R-OK), along with
the usual cadre of religious conservatives, most notably Ralph Reed,
executive director of the Christian Coalition, introduced for the
third time a "religious freedom" amendment to the constitution. This
amendment, if successful, would completely gut the first amendment and
entangle the government with religion in such a way as to make the
current relationship most welcome.
Before we go any further let us look at the proposed wording.
"To secure the people's right to acknowledge God: The right to
pray or acknowledge religious belief, heritage or tradition on public
property, including public schools, shall not be infringed. The
Government shall not compel joining in prayer, initiate or compose
school prayers, discriminate against or deny a benefit on account of
religion."
Innocent enough? Or is it? This peculiar wording begs several
questions which should be addressed before such an undertaking as
amending the constitution is pursued.
1) "To secure the people's right to acknowledge God" What god
are they referring to that believers, for some incomprehensible
reason, need a secular, civil statement to grant them the right to
acknowledge? It seems that the government is being asked to suggest
that the current crop of popular divinities, from yahweh to babalu,
including the supporting castmembers which accompany most of the
major skybosses, are relatively neutral. That is to say, they are all
interchangeable, nebulous beings without any particularly distinct
features. So pick one, any one. As long as you have a divinity to
acknowledge, you are on sound legal footing. Some additional wording
would be necessary just within the first eight words. How about - "To
secure the people's right to acknowledge ANY God," or, " To secure the
people's right to acknowledge or reject any God..." No, this won't do
simply because I know and you know that they mean the christian god,
and thou shalt have no other gods before him. This is simply a sneaky
and disingenuous way to get the word "god" into the constitution
without defining what god they are specifically referring to and why.
This is totally antithetical to the first amendment as currently
worded. This is pure, unadulterated religious authoritarianism - an
attempt to coerce conformity of thought through the use of the
government apparatus.
2) "The right to pray or acknowledge religious belief, heritage
or tradition..." - Rather than go into a lengthy argument rejecting
this phrase (I suggest American Atheist Magazine August 1995 Edition
"A Matter of Prayer" for a complete history of the prayer fight) it is
suffice to say that no law has ever been passed (or even considered)
that would, in any way, take away a person's right to pray if they so
choose to do so. What was removed was coerced participation in
orchestrated rituals specific to the christian sect and the mandatory
reading of excerpts from only christian literature. As Atheists who
pride ourselves in intellectual freedom we also recognize that the
individual has the right to acknowledge religious belief, heritage or
tradition to their heart's content. Certainly even we acknowledge
religious belief, heritage or tradition. We may think it's insane,
irrational, insulting, damaging, and a mental disease, but we
acknowledge it. We may also ascertain that religious heritage is
appalling, but we acknowledge it nonetheless.
3) "...on public property, including public schools, shall not be
infringed. -
Bingo! There it is. What this essentially means is that
religious organizations can now take it upon themselves, under the
rubric of "religious expression", to walk into any government or
public facility, such as a public school, a courtroom, a museum,
planetarium, library, post office, etc. and immediately demand that
all persons in that facility STOP what they are doing and witness
(either as a participant or an observer) the unique choreography
employed by which adherents conjure their deity to perform tricks or
grant favors. Of course remember that the presumption is that this
deity would never do such things unless incessantly implored to do so
by the faithful. When properly addressed, the deity will then abandon
the predestined future (of which he or she or it has complete
knowledge) and change its mind on behalf of the supplicants. This now
makes every public edifice a potential "Instant Conjure Chamber." And
this right to turn any public building into an advertisement for the
promotion of specific products is to be given only to the religious
industry. What? You say religion is not an industry? I'm sorry but
maybe I misinterpreted the thousands of TV stations, thousands of
radio stations, over 350,000 tax-free religiously owned properties
specifically designed to be esthetically pleasing to their divinities,
book stores, printing businesses, , music and film companies,
insurance companies, stock/bond holding companies, investment firms,
marketing firms, phone companies. etc., owned by organized religions.
Maybe by some stretch of the imagination all of these things do not
constitute an industry, but if I'm wrong I submit myself to criticism
willingly.
The "religious freedom" amendment would not only provide
"special rights" to the religious industry, but would enhance the
variety of "special rights" it already enjoys.
a) Religion would become the only industry to have the
constitutionally protected "special right" to go into schools and sell
their con game and related paraphenalia, such as literature, candles,
charms, amulets, sacramentals, etc., - without any restrictions
whatsoever. They would be able to conduct faith demonstrations
consisting of various conjuring rituals upon minor children and use
these devices to divide students into easily identifiable groups,
ultimately targeting non-christians and non-believers as potential
kneebenders and future sources of income. This is a direct attempt by
religious advocates to prey on the imaginations (and eventually
pocketbooks) of immature minds before young people have the cognitive
critical thinking skills necessary to refute arguments predicated on
superstition, fear, and guilt. This could be accomplished behind
parents backs and without their permission.
b) This would create an environment in the public school which
would require young immature children to publicly declare their
religious leanings to their peers and administrators at the beginning
of the school day. If the religious opinions are the most popular,
the child is accepted by his/her peers. If the religious opinion is a
minority opinion, or if the child is your child -an Atheist child -
he or she is subject to ridicule, scorn, and isolation by the
majoritarian group. This would eventually destroy the classroom
environment necessary to promote education. This bill hoodwinks the
government into giving preference to superstition and indoctrination
over critical thinking and education within the public school milieu.
Ultimately this weakens a teachers ability to teach, and a students
ability to learn. The introduction of sectarianism in the public
schools would turn them into religious warzones.
4) "The Government shall not compel joining in prayer, initiate
or compose school prayers,..." - Allow me to be brief. It seems
that this phrase contradicts the first sentence of this proposed
amendment where the government is in fact being used to advocate
the"....right to acknowledge God: The right to pray..." The
government is in fact compelling the right to pray by giving these
"special rights" to believers and by acknowledging and promoting
belief over non-belief.
5) "...discriminate against or deny a benefit on account of
religion." -To borrow a phrase from former presidential candidate Ross
Perot, "That sucking sound you hear..." will be taxpayer dollars
flowing from the public trough into the religious coffers. In other
words, the religious industry would benefit by dipping into the public
fisc in ways that regular secular businesses are prevented from doing.
This amendment would give additional "special rights" that the average
business owner is enjoined from benefitting in. This amendment would
promote unfair business practices and offer advantages that only the
religious industry could only avail itself of.
This proposed amendment is nothing more than a Trojan Horse by
which other aspects of theological bigotry would be introduced into
the public classroom. Both Pat Robertson, head of the 700 Club and
the Christian Coalition, and his legal song and dance man, Jay Sekulow
of the American Center for Law and Justice have both, in literature
and in the media, expressed a desire to destroy the public school
system of the United States, This amendment is the first blow.
This proposed amendment is a blow against an Atheist's civil
right to reject religious intrusion into his or her life. It would
forcibly expose Atheist children to bizarre and repugnant practices,
rituals and superstitious. irrational ideas. It would be used as a
divisive tool in the classroom and would put your child in the
position of "second-class" status if your child refuses to go along
with the currently popular voodoo chants. As Atheists we are now
being relegated to the back of the classroom as well as the back of
the bus. We are in fact, the "Niggers of the Nineties"
Ronald J. Barrier
National Media Coordinator
American Atheists, Inc
rbarrier@atheists.org
http://www.atheists.org
ftp.atheists.org/pub/
"If there were a god, religion would be would be out of business"
C-1997 American Atheist Press
No portion of this commentary may be made without proper credit being
given to the author and American Atheists, Inc.
-30-
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Top 15 Surprises on the Vatican's Website
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:35:56
EID:b1c5 22836460
MSGID: 1:18/14 3343EA7C
PID: GenMsg 5.00 [0002]
Date: 03 Apr 97 17:35:56 UTC
* Copy of message posted via A_THEIST
* Date: 03 Apr 97 12:29:56
* From: Christopher Baker
* To: All
* Message text was not edited!
From: top5@lists.zdnet.com
Subject: Top5 - 4/2/97 - Surprises on the Vatican's New Website
Errors-To: top5-errors@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:24:41 MST
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[ This list copyright 1997 by Chris White and Ziff Davis, Inc. ]
[ The Top Five List top5@walrus.com http://www.topfive.com ]
The Top Five List for April 2, 1997
The Top 15 Surprises on the Vatican's New Website
15> Pictures of the Pontiff's recent nipple piercing.
14> J.P.'s turn-ons: Pointy Hats. Turn-offs: Terrorists with guns.
13> After saying 3 "Hail Mary's" and 2 "Our Father's," your
download time is *much* faster.
12> Third "Secret of Fatima" revealed to be no more than warning
for larger women to avoid horizontal stripes.
11> Lyrics to "Yo, The Pope is Dope!" rap duet with Ice-T.
10> "Thou shalt not use blinking text" is officially the 11th
commandment.
9> Blowup of "The Last Supper" reveals small containers of
applesauce and pudding.
8> Downloadable sound clips from Sunday's Easter mass, as well as
from "Happy Gilmore" and "Tommy Boy."
7> Secret Vatican City recipe for Long Island Iced Tea!
6> Hidden BathroomCam debunks that rumor about what the Pope does
"in the woods."
5> Constant updates of Cardinals & Padres scores.
4> The Numero Uno link on the "Top 10 E-Tickets To Hell" list?
www.topfive.com!
3> Chocolate rosary beads for sale: "They're Catholicious!"
2> While the Pope himself may be infallible, the web site crashes
more than Kelsey Grammer on his way home from a bachelor party.
and the Number 1 Surprise on the Vatican's New Website...
1> Online "Confess-O-Rama" nothing more than a chat room run by
some guy named Chester.
Selected from 102 submissions from 36 contributors.
Today's Top Five List authors are:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sam Evans, Charleston, SC -- 1 (7th #1 -- Hall of Famer)
Jeff Downey, Raleigh, NC -- 2
Alan Smithee, Sugar Land, TX -- 2
Cathie Walker, Victoria, BC, Cananda -- 3
Mitch Patterson, Atlanta, GA -- 4
Sue Prifogle, Rushville, IN -- 5
Kris Johnson, Burbank, CA -- 6
Kim Moser, New York, NY -- 6
Craig Stacey, St. Paul, MN -- 7 (Oooh, how cute!)
Tisha Stacey, St. Paul, MN -- 8 (Oooh, how cute!)
Vickie Neilson, Carlsbad, CA -- 9
Duncan Carling, San Francisco, CA -- 10
Ed Brooksbank, Sacramento, CA -- 11
Caroline Gennity, Virginia Beach, VA -- 12
Chris Gleason, Germantown, MD -- 13
Paul Schindler, Orinda, CA -- 14
Steve Hurd, San Ramon, CA -- 15
Michael Wolf, Brookline, MA -- Topic
Chris White, New York, NY -- List owner/editor
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ruminations & Ponderances
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: CE
|Date: 02 Apr 97 04:44:00
EID:571f 22822580
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 33445bc1
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, John Musselwhite cast CE at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.
RH> Mathematically, it's WRONG. The first year of the CE should
RH> have been 0CE.
SA> Actually, shouldn't it have been simply 0 (no CE or BCE?)
JM>
JM> No... this whole argument is really dumb, Sue. The first year
JM> isn't the zeroth year, it's the first year. If it were to be
JM> measured it would be in fractions, but it would still be
JM> fractions of one, not zero.
Actually, I was just pointing out the error of tacking a positive
(or negative) onto a zero in the first place.
SA> ie, ... 3 BCE, 2 BCE, 1 BCE, 0, 1 CE, 2 CE, 3 CE ...
SA> Right? Because 0 is always neither positive nor negative?
SA> Or am I that mathematically stunted?
JM> The problem is that in this case "0" doesn't exist. We are
JM> discussing a point in time rather than the absence of a point
JM> in time. There is one side or the other, but never a point when
JM> neither side "isn't".
Indeed, but in the case of a year label, it's just that - a label.
You could call it "Q" and it wouldn't make much difference.
SA> Hell with it. Maybe we should just count the years from the
SA> formation of the Earth. This would be year 4.5 billion and
JM> Well, for convenience we split time into "eras". The beginning
JM> of the Common Era, while often thought of as the Christian Era
JM> (anno domini), actually lies as much with prophecy as it does
JM> with the birth of Jesus. It was long believed that a
JM> thousand-year cycle was about to end, and the year we consider
JM> to be the "first" year of Jesus' life (which was more like the
JM> fourth to seventh actually) was the first year of a prophesied
JM> "New Era". This new era was adopted by later Christians as
JM> their own since knowledge of it already existed and convincing
JM> people at the time that the new era was the Christian one was
JM> rather easy.
No shit.
SA> something. :) It's got to be better than some American in an
SA> article someone posted here saying the entire world should start
SA> counting dates from the American Revolution. That's as bad as the
SA> CURRENT system.
JM> Some have suggested 1945 as the year the next era should begin,
JM> but I don't think it has yet.
I've heard something about that - Before Atomics and Post-Atomics.
JM> I predict that within the next five-seven years the first true
JM> anti-agathic (anti-aging/death) drugs will appear on the
JM> market, followed by an exodus of people off-planet within ten
JM> years of that. The next era will be "ad astra" (to the stars)
JM> or as Heinlein predicted, "Diaspora", but it will mark the year
JM> people leave this planet permanently. Once it happens, ask
JM> yourself if you're in the zeroth or the first year.
Again, it wouldn't really matter if we called the current year year
"1 NE" or year 0 (with last year being 1 OE and next year being 1
NE). It's an aribtrary label; people using the system would still
know what time period you were talking about some years down the
road; and it wouldn't particularly matter if it made sense to them
or not, as they'd still accept it (assuming they'd accept a calendar
change in the first place.) Similarly, it would make just as much
sense to relabel Jan-Dec 1945 AD as "year 0 - the year the Bomb
first went off" with the next year (the first post-WWII and
post-atomic year) as year 1 PA - with the BAs being considered as
working up to culminate in the invention of nukes.
--Wolfie
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... Sesame Street Wicca has been brought to you by Blessed B.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Normalities
|Date: 02 Apr 97 04:57:01
EID:11dc 22822720
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 33445bc2
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast Normalities at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.
SA> urgh. I'm not sure what a Barabbri is, but it sounds wonderfully
SA> nasty.
DL> From the Mage 2Ed Sourcebook. Pg.11
DL> Barabbi: A mage who renonces her former loyalties to follow the dark
DL> Path of the Nephandi (remember *those* guys?)
Ah, yes, that fun group.
DL> I should get on the Werewolf-l list.
SA> Oh, do! Though the big question on there right now is how the laws
SA> of physics might affect someone using Speed Beyond Thought -
DL> Well...Maybe not. My mailbox keeps filling up with 20-30 msgs a day
DL> from just the MAGE-L list.
Heh. That's about as many as we get - sometimes a little more,
sometimes less, depending. Say, do you have Phil Brucato on over
there?
DL> "Yes, now be still. Where was I?....Oh yes. Now between this reality
DL> and the penumbra exists yet another realm. Tho' it's properties are
DL> unique. One cannot actually exist in this realm, but only though
DL> enterance and exit. Much like like walking through a doorway. With one
DL> step you move from one part of a dwelling to another. And doing so
DL> requires a length of time. Same is true for this tertiary realm. The
DL> Garou, and some Masters of the Sphere of Correspondence I might add,
DL> can use this realm to travel from one point in space to another.
DL> However, the relationship of time to this realm is not a constant. The
DL> perceived passage of time in this realm is much quicker than in
DL> reality. An entity might only perceive that 1 sec had passed only to
DL> discover that upon exiting this tertiary realm that hours had passed.
DL> There now. Does that clear things up for you?" the professer asked.
DL> "Umm...not rea..."
DL> "Fine, fine M' boy" he stated as he patted his young charge on the
DL> head. "Glad to be of help. Now don't forget to review chapters 24-26
DL> for thursdays exam on krlilian photography and it's relationship to
DL> quantum anomilies". He interupted as he picked up the theisis in his
DL> lap.
Heheheh. Silly mage. It might describe things a little differently
in the M:tA book, but the Umbra section in W:tA describes the
Penumbra as having time set, pretty much like it is on Earth. The
Near (Middle) Umbra, on the other hand ...
Of course, the stupid rules are really contradictory (well, not
really contradictory, but they do leave things fuzzy) about
travelling along moon paths and the like. Concievably, you could
follow one into the NU, travel along it to the other side of the
world and come out of the Penumbra there anywhere from a second to,
oh, decades later or longer. Yet the older books try to force one
to think that the only way you could do transoceanic umbral travel
is via caern-to-caern moon bridge. Well, at least the Nuwisha book
clears that up a bit; it says specifically that 1) they spend most
of their time in the Umbra and 2) this allowed them to go all over
the place, even before Columbus. Of course, it begs the question -
why, then, were Eurasian Garou supposed to be so surprised when they
found Garou in North America and Australia? If they wanted to go
beat up on the Bunyip, they could've done it any time they wanted to
.. making the Second War of Rage rather moot. Either way, they
broke the Litany whether they went by ship or moon path.
--Wolfie
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... Why use lab animals when there's virus writers?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:23:44
EID:ce12 2283b2e0
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7c97f2f7
MSGID: 1:229/622 33442e49
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
JB>> It's already been built, Katherine. Didn't you know that. It even
JB>> extends a few miles beyond the top of the mountain.
KW> Do they have a McDonalds up there yet?
Golden Arks! Over 1 Billion Sold!
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: ...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:52:54
EID:dd80 2283b680
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A34D
MSGID: 1:229/622 334435b3
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
>> The fact that such is how every other pregnancy in the world occurs.
KY> Wait, just because something happened a certain way every other time,
KY> is evidence that it couldn't happen any other way?
I think you're on the right track. Tomorrow the sun might rise
in the West. Just because it has never before been observed to
do so does not guarantee that it won't. But the EVIDENCE is that
there is a consistent pattern that allows us to predict (not know)
over which horizon we may expect to see sunrise.
No sane person would expect the earth to reverse its rotation
or expect a virgin birth.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 03 Apr 97 23:13:12
EID:0e18 2283b9a0
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e970818
MSGID: 1:229/622 334439f3
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of George Harper to All:
GH> Wednesday Apr 2
Shutting down your brain and turning on the spam already? Yours
is one of the fastest fundy disintegrations I've yet seen. Or are
you just doing penance for your lies?
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: worship of torture
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:17:03
EID:b833 22835a20
MSGID: 1:3603/210 55de5411
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Why would you *worship* such a heinous torturer anyway?
RC> Because your grandfather did?
JS> No, because God put it into my heart to do so.
At least you admit that you worship a heinous torturer.
People who willingly bow to worship torturers are responsible
for making our world a more dangerous place by encouraging,
through example, emptyheaded obedience to cruelty.
JS> Happy now? Good enough show for you? When does the
JS> applause start?
You want applause for your acceptance of TORTURE? You are sick.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: welcome back
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:17:04
EID:b8e6 22835a20
MSGID: 1:3603/210 55de5412
TID: GE/2 1.2
This has been waiting for you:
RC> Provided you don't fuck indiscriminantly, share needles,
RC> or perform other high-risk behaviors, you will find that
RC> for a "contagious" disease, there is virtually zero chance
RC> of contracting it.
RH> Ah, but Robert, the cocksuckers are doing just that. Some
RH> of them even brag about it.
Actually, Roger, oral sex is considerably safer (with respect to
contracting the HIV virus) for the women and men who engage in it
than is unprotected vaginal or anal sex, so you are mistaken.
Now, if you meant to use the term "cocksuckers" as some sort of
pejorative reference to gay men, then I can only laugh at the
absurdity of ignoring the denotation in favor of mere connotation.
BTW, how exactly do you think *you* are going to contract HIV?
RH> No hysteria involved in isolating carriers of fatal diseases.
It most certainly is hysteria when you have virtually no chance
whatsoever of contracting it unless you fuck an infected woman
or man without using a condom, or you share a needle with an
infected person, or -- well, you get the picture. There is hardly
any reason for you to want to gather up all HIV-infected persons
to haul them away into concentration camps.
Others have also posted good explanations for why such an insanely
naive proposed "solution" would not only be dangerous to our society
with respect to general civil liberties, but in also why it would
not even effectively work to eliminate the disease, anyway.
RH> The facts are not in dispute, we are arguing about methods
RH> of prevention.
Indeed. You favor concentration camps for no good reason, and I
favor sensible personal precautions and greater public education.
A clear choice.
RH>>> Why shouldn't we punish anyone who knowingly passes
RH>>> on a fatal illness?
DR>> Who said such a person should not be punished?
RH>> You did. It was one of the things you were objecting to;
RH>> criminal penalties for concealing one's illness.
RC> So by your (ahem) reasoning, a person who conceals a gun is
RC> knowingly shooting people with it.
RH> Don't be obtuse, Curry. The purpose in concealing AIDS is
RH> so you can continue having sex, which is the transmission mode.
Let's see. You don't know any gays (or so you've stated in other
of your posts here), but somehow you DO know that evil intent to
infect others via sex is the reason that gays (or anyone, for that
matter) dare to keep their medical records private?
Don't be such a dense jackass.
RC> Come again?
RH> That's what they want to do!
And you seriously cannot even imagine how responsible adults can
find safe means of sexual gratification? Are you simply inexperienced
and ignorant, or have you grown so old and addle-brained that you've
completely forgotten the possibilities?
RC> I think you missed a cylinder on this one.
RH> Not at all.
"IS NOT!" is the more traditional denial by people who don't care
to investigate the facts due to their opinions being set in concrete.
I had thought better of you.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:09:47
EID:2dc8 22844937
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a21
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 163d2d8b
PID: FM 2.02
Dave, I never attended public schools.
- Jim Staal
It looks as though he has a valid reason for being a fundy, homophobic,
anti-woman bigot after all.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to
particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart from God
even further than do pagan men. - (Jim Staal, Promise Keeper)
---
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|From: Speaker to Fundies
|To: George Harper
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:12:33
EID:4e6a 22844990
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a22
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 163d2d8e
PID: FM 2.02
gH> between legs and feet DOES have basis of possibility. One
gh> interpretaion is as valid as another. God is NOT contradicting
gh> Himself, he's just saying "figure it out for yourself, stupid!"
gh> *I* choose to accep