God Damned Fundies!
|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Mark O'Neill
|Sub: FUNDY FROLICS 1/3
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:51:13
EID:786f 2282b660
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3342e2e1
-> On 31 Mar 97 02:04:41, Mark O'Neill got back to Ken Young
DH>> So is slavery ok?
KY> If the slaves gave up their freedom willingly, and actually chose to
be
KY> slaves,but only then.
MO> Oh dear. How many peoples do you know of that willingly traded
MO> freedom for slavery? Say after me, "I believe what I say. I believe
That comment of Henny, errrr, Kenny Young-boy does deserve a
place in the FAQ. Too bad he can't vote for it, as he decided
to become a slave...
... Ken Young believes that Laurie Appleton makes sense. Enough said.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:53:46
EID:b037 2282b6a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3342e37a
-> On 31 Mar 97 12:20:29, Ken Young got back to Jim Staal
> I belong to no death-cult.
KY> Tell me, how do you define "death cult?"
I'll spell it out for you, as it's only one word:
C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-I-T-Y
... Offering evidence to a fundy is like carrying coal to Newcastle
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: George Harper
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:03:22
EID:165a 22833060
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3343482a
-> On 28 Mar 97 04:01:00, Doug Schwandt got back to George Harper
DL> MO> dickhead.
DS> Aren't you glad we deal with such estute, articulate people, who are
^^^^^^
That's 'astute', dickhead.
... Creationism in schools? Sure. Right after Thermodynamics in church.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hit
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:18:16
EID:8a79 22833240
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33434ba8
-> On 31 Mar 97 07:45:58, Jim Staal got back to DAVID RICE
DR> Which is excellent, by the way. Don't piss sour grapes just
DR> because YOU failed so badly in public schools.
JS> Dave, I never attended public schools.
There is very little evidence from you that you attended
_any_ school.
... Fundy's fear god? More likely, they fear their god doesn't exist.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:24:30
EID:ff02 22833300
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 33434d1e
-> On 31 Mar 97 19:15:44, Ken Young got back to Shelby Sherman
SS> I repeat, on what do you base your conclusion that sexual preference
is
SS> a choice?
KY> One of the things I base that on, is that many change their minds,
KY> later in life.
Finally decided you are Gay, huh?
Are you going to remain a Christian?
... Jimmy Swaggart's home for wayward girls: Paradise Motel!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Re: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:20:00
EID:7228 22836280
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 343e6da1
-=> Quoting George Harper to Rick Mcfarlane <=-
Good morning, George.
MO> 011:021 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth
MO> upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap
MO> withal upon the earth;
MO>
MO> 011:022 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and
MO> the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind,
MO> and the grasshopper after his kind.
MO>
MO> 011:023 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet,
MO> shall be an abomination unto you.
MO>
GH> Check to make sure I haven't deleted any part of this quote,
Until you are caught actually using such stupid and underhanded tactics,
I'll trust you, George. I tend to expect the best from people, until
proven otherwise. There are many around here who have proven otherwise,
mind you (and most of those are on the other side of the argument from you,
due to the sheer weight of their numbers in this place).
GH> then tell me where verse 21 says there are ONLY four legs.
There's a better "explanation" for verse 21 (which we'll get to in a
moment), but the logic you are using here demands that you interpret the
plain statement in verse 23 "which have four feet" to really mean "which
have at least four feet"? I guess you have to do whatever it takes to
validate your beliefs, but I thought ADDING things to scripture is a no-
no. If they'd meant "at least four feet" they would have said "at least
four feet," wouldn't they?
But hold on a sec! This could solve a lot of problems. When the Bible
says God created the universe in 6 days, it really means "at least 6
days". So the fact that it really took 5,475,000,000,000 days is
not a contradiction for a literalist! Have you notified the ICR
of this great discovery of yours?
No? You mean in that case six means six, but in this case four means six?
GH> It says...PLAINLY... that they go on all four.
"Going on all four" (verse 21) could very well be just an idiomatic way
of
saying "creeping" or "crawling". When my kids were little, they used to
scoot around on all fours too, but they only have 2 feet (really!), so the
phrase may very well not have mathematical significance. I saw an
individual who was familiar with the Hebrew argue that point one time, and
I don't have any basis for rejecting that point of view.
However, verse 23 clearly mentions "which have four feet", a phrase which
does seem to be based on counting, rather than idiom.
GH> Can that be interpreted to say they have four legs? Surely.
Can it be interpreted otherwise?
GH> But it IS only implied,
No, it is plainly stated. "... which have four feet..."
GH> AND goes on to say they have LEGS above the FEET...
A very good good place to keep legs. Helps prevent the feet from falling
off. ;-)
GH> so that the allegation that
GH> there is a distinction between legs and feet DOES have basis of
GH> possibility.
I think we're all aware of the distinction between legs and feet. It's
good to see that the Bible confirms that legs and feet are different. But
that really is a bit of a red herring here. It's the NUMBER of feet (or
legs for that matter) that we're talking about.
GH> One interpretaion is as valid as another.
See what you have been reduced to, George? Now you are claiming that it
is just as valid to interpret four to mean six as it is to interpret
four to mean four. This is the sort of humour that makes it worth
putting up with all the garbage that passes for "discussion"
in this echo.
GH> God is NOT contradicting Himself, he's just saying "figure it out for
GH> yourself, stupid!"
So tell us when you figure it out, OK?
GH> *I* choose to accept the math <4 feet plus 2 jumping legs
GH> equals six pedal appendages> which puts the entire passage into a
GH> viable perspective.
It sounded like pretty contorted reasoning to me when I suggested it to
you, but you are entitled to use it if you wish. Now, show me how you can
use that same logic to explain the beetles (also mentioned in verse 22
along with the grasshoppers). They don't have 2 jumping legs, just 6 more
or less similar limbs.
Take care.
... It works better if you switch it on. (Anon.)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.09.03 (Registered)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: CE
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:20:00
EID:ab14 22836280
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 343e6db1
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Sue Armstrong <=-
Good morning, John.
JM> Some have suggested 1945 as the year the next era should begin,
JM> but I don't think it has yet.
If we act real quick, and get everyone to adopt that system in the next
year or two, we would be heros for solving the "Year 2000" problem. All
that software with two digit year fields would work for another 45 years
!
Take care.
... They jest at scars that never felt a wound. (Shakespeare)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.09.03 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Ken Greene
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Loons flying to roost...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 14:27:00
EID:b81a 22837360
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1823ff
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to All <=-
RS> Well, folks, it was inevitable. A local loon (whose name is
RS> being withheld until his next of kin can be told how stupid
RS> he was) decided a day or so ago to emulate the Heaven's Gate
RS> crowd. He put a plastic bag over his head and breathed
RS> propane until dead. He left a note saying that he wanted to
RS> go with the Heaven's Gate crowd on the comet.
RS> Can I get a big A-men! Are you with me, brothers and
RS> sisters?! GO HOME TO JESUS EARLY ON HALE-BOPP!
Have you looked at thier Web Sight?
... Ken.Greene@usa.net Fidonet 1:106/4015 GTPN 001/085 281-589-2991
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:02:56
EID:227d 22833040
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedb
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d7683
Doug Schwandt said "Educational Experienc" to Judith Bandsma, adding:
JB> KW> The ark was built out of rail road
JB> KW> ties!!! And
JB> And microwaved in soy sauce.
DS> Ah, yes! Those world-famous soy sauce soaked splinters brought
DS> to us by those who sought to publicly discredit ICR.
And who succeeded splendidly, owing to the ICR's oerweening
arrogance, gullibility, and utter lack of scientific acumen. When
one sets out to discredit something, it is always a help to pick a
target that actively participates in the process.
JB> KW> they're going to build a four lane high way up to it, with
JB> KW> a look out yet!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!
JB>It's already been built, Katherine. Didn't you know that. It
JB>even extends a few miles beyond the top of the mountain.
DS> Brought to you by Mr. Asholian, the man with the soy sauce
DS> soaked samples.
George Jamal was, I believe, the one who faked the "Ark"
samples, fobbed them off to Sun Productions, and later gave a
detailed account of the whole process. According to his account, the
producers were so eager to believe his "evidence" that not only did
they _not_ send it out for verification by an independent lab, they
did _not_ even ask him any questions about his story as probing as
those a parent might ask an adolescent about the events of the
latter's first date. Those who make "information" known to the
general public (in this case Sun Pictures) have the responsibilty of
verifying the accuracy thereof.
Later, you say to Marilyn Burge:
MB> DS> to its residents. Conversely, if your house caught fire,
MB> DS> would you expect the fire department to
MB>No, they pay taxes to fight fires and offer police protection to
MB>THEIR PERSONAL PROPERTY! Why should they get "two for a nickel"
MB>when the rest of us only get one?
DS> Remember that when you pay your next income tax bill and you realize
DS> that your employer hasn't paid a dime in in years. Yet, your employer
DS> is entitled to all the services the Federal Government can provide
DS> him.
Upon what evidence do you base your example? Who is Marilyn's
employer? How do you know that this person "hasn't paid a dime in in
years"? In what way is a tax cheat _entitled_ to government
services? A tax cheat might enjoy _benefitting_ from such services,
but he is not entitled to them. He is _entitled_ to 15-20 at
Leavenworth plus payment of back taxes and a whopping fine. But
before we can know what Marilyn's employer is entitled to, we must
know whether he has indeed a tax cheat or whether you are simply
(and not for the first time) blowing smoke out of your arse.
Which is it, Dougie Baby? Creamy Italian or Ranch?
Later still, you say to Marilyn Burge:
MB>INTENT in what he wrote. Read the Federalist Papers so you'll look
MB>like less of a fool.
DS> I may have to. Not because of your ending clause, but because I smell
DS> selective (mis)representation here.
Your personal scent to one side, _any_ information whatsoever
would improve your chances of appearing sentient.
MB>have the same amount of freedom. If you don't have freedom FROM
MB>those religions, you hardly have the freedom to practice the one
MB>you chose.
DS> Because I choose not to associate myself with other beliefs, I would
DS> hardly say that I am free of those religions. The only way to be
DS> truly free OF religion is to have NONE.
Really? Do you not consider yourself "truly free" of Hinduism?
"Truly free" of Shinto? "Truly free" of Santera? "Truly free" of
Scientology? In what ways are you shackled by those beliefs? I
rather suspect that you spend days, weeks, and months not giving any
of them a single thought, and I rather doubt you have sacrificed any
chickens lately, burned any incense at any shrines, or got "clear".
I would suspect that in truth you are truly free of that lot, but
you enjoy bullshitting us too much to admit it.
Creamy Italian or Ranch? Which for you?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: [1/2] Netmail Spam
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:43:59
EID:2d68 22833560
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedc
REPLY: 1:3603/210 547a5f97
ROBERT CURRY said "[1/2] Netmail Spam" to DON MARTIN, adding:
ro> Apparently-to: Don_Martin@f1000.n261.z1.fidonet.org
ro> From: rocket77@one.net
RC> This reminded me to check the netmail area, which I rarely
RC> if ever do, and I found the same junkmail sent to me by the
RC> same anonymous idiot.
DM> Isn't it wonderful to be remembered at this time of the
DM> year?
RC> April 1st?
And Rocket77 is just the fool for the job.
In another message, you say to a clone of his:
GH> Further, I refute any claims you make based on writings
GH> sympathetic to your philosophy on the grounds of their being
GH> mythology...
RC> You seem to have confused your own *modus operandi* of unthinking
RC> belief in ancient mythologies and books of superstition with the
RC> more thoughtful statements from those who do not appeal to such
RC> things.
Makes you wonder what this one might suppose the word "refute"
to mean, doesn't it?
GH> whether they predate the writings upon which I base my faith,
GH> or not...
RC> The _Epic of Gilgamesh_ for instance.
RC> Remember, it was Utnapishtim's ark first. :-)
Well, I have to admit that the Genesis authors got _one_ thing
right: "Noah" is a helluva lot easier to pronounce than
"Utnapishtim".
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: BOOK
|Date: 03 Apr 97 07:11:04
EID:dbfe 22833960
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedd
Roger Hunter said "BOOK" to Don Martin, adding:
DM> to use their real names. I would prefer, though, to have
DM> permissions and to use genuine identifications, particularly
DM> of the good stuff.
DM> As I get it together, I shall post pieces of it here for
DM> comments, corrections, suggestions, additions, etc.
DM> Comments?
RH> Excellent idea. Permission granted, in the unlikely event you
RH> find anything of mine worth using.
RH> Uh......You DO plan on sharing the royalties, don't you?
Hey, I've got my old age to think of (and at _my_ age, I don't
have all that much time in which to do so).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Loons flying to roost...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 08:09:47
EID:eade 22834120
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aede
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 3341af22
Richard Smith said "Loons flying to roost..." to All, adding:
RS> Well, folks, it was inevitable. A local loon (whose name is
RS> being withheld until his next of kin can be told how stupid
RS> he was) decided a day or so ago to emulate the Heaven's Gate
RS> crowd. He put a plastic bag over his head and breathed
RS> propane until dead. He left a note saying that he wanted to
RS> go with the Heaven's Gate crowd on the comet.
RS> Can I get a big A-men! Are you with me, brothers and
RS> sisters?! GO HOME TO JESUS EARLY ON HALE-BOPP!
I don't know about you, but _I_ am rather impressed by any cult
that continues to recruit after the death of all its members. This
sort of thing keeps up, and Heaven's Gate will rank right up there
with christianity.
We can start making* reservations on the next cycle, 4,200 years
hence! (I know that that is a big hunk of time away, but it is still
a more precise Second Coming than the exceedingly vague one we keep
getting told about).
________
* Or better yet, _selling_.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Netmail
|Date: 03 Apr 97 08:15:27
EID:75d0 228341e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedf
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 33414dba
I tried to answer your note, but my system said your node was
beyond its ken. Got an email address?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: George Harper
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Re: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:23:55
EID:e0f8 22835ae0
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f0bab99
TID: GE 1.1+
On 01 Apr 97 21:25:31, Ed Mills said the following to George Harper:
EM> EM> which resulted from early pedophilic lutheran indoctrination.
EM>
EM> As you know, the etymology and accepted definition of a word are,
EM> as often as not, disconnected to some degree:
EM>
EM> Pedophile: an adult who is sexually attracted to children.
EM> (World Book Dictionary)
EM>
EM> Yeah, it's definitely unsavory.
If you have/had proof that your pastor was a pedophile (which I suspect
is a
gross exaggeration, made for effect), why on earth would you NOT report
him
to your parents, or even the police? I certainly would have! But perhaps
I am putting more emphasis on this wording that you are comfortable with...
Not that I care about your comfort, since YOU posed such a lie as fact...
EM> EM> Understanding the criminality of inculcating the minds of little
EM> EM> kids with superstitious thought helps to overcome the brainwashing,
EM> EM> and listening to the believers has helped even more.
Again...if what was being done IS criminal, it is also actionable under
the
lawa protecting children. The only thing preventing YOU from being charged
under these laws is that most parents have the common sense to NOT allow
young
children to be exposed to your brand of theology. These charges would stem
from your espousal of the unfounded theologic teaching (i.e. superstition)
that there IS no god, and that persons who instruct young folk in a particular
faith are pedophilic, thereby causing them to fear and mistrust those
teachers.
EM> I've been aware of the criminality of christianic death-cult youth
EM> indoctrination for a long time. I don't remember when the first
EM> inkling came.
Read the above paragraph...again...and add the charge of libel, because
you
cannot prove that Lutheran's are a "christianic death-cult"...(*IF* they
were,
they would hardly indoctrinate the youth into those practices BEFORE the
youth were already committed to following the church's edicts where-ever
they
might lead...)
EM> The material being taught has no benefit, other than the control
EM> of the subject by the perpetrator of the superstition.
How many witnesses can you provide that can, under oath, state that they
were controlled by Christ, or Martin Luther for that matter, INVOLUNTARILY.
(Even *I* will admit to submitting to Christ's teachings, God's Will,
and that I accept the good Doctor's Books Of Concord as a guideline for
my beliefs..and that such submission is voluntary). I can present several
witnesses to support the viewpoint opposite of yours.
EM> There was no candy, no feel-good things. Just the filthy mental
EM> abuse of your cohorts in child abuse.
AGAIN: Put up or shut up! Read the paragraph dealing
with the legal recourse available for even SUSPECTED criminal actions.
IF
you have proof, follow the path indicated. If, as I suspect, these
allegations are total fabrications intended to defame a particular church
body, or an individual, I suggest that you write a retraction and publish
it in this echo. Otherwise, *I* DO have the ability to determine who taught
you your catechism, so I *WILL* be able to inform him, if he still lives,
of your charges in a public international echo.
EM> EM> Yes, it's a great service you fundies are providing here. You're
EM> EM> helping me connect the dots by providing real-world confirmation
EM> GH> another indication of arrested mental development: plays childish
EM> GH> games as a means of coping...receives confirmation from the
EM> GH> dots...calls them Reality...
EM> Condescension works much better when it relates to the intent of
EM> that which it is directed at. Absent that, it serves no purpose
EM> but to belie deficient reading comprehension. Just thought
EM> you'd like to know. :-)
Just dealing with what you described as the value of the information
input by the "fundies" (To Wit: "helping me connect the dots" - indicating
that you are indeed pursuing a childish pastime). Seems to me to fit your
intent to a "T"...
EM> EM> of religious deceit, confirmation that gradually piles up along-
EM> EM> side the failed brainwashing put there years ago by your ilk
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I read this as:
"brainwashing = religious education" replaced by "brainwashing = a
large volume container of fecal matter devised by those unwilling to
accept accountability for their own self-indulgences"
If I am wrong, please prove the validity of the belief system which you
have
substituted for the teachings of your parents and pastor.
EM> what's child abuse. Adults who buy the shit deserve to be
EM> misinformed.
I repeat...if it is child abuse, it is illegal...do something about it.
BUT - remember my threat to inform your pastor that you called him a
pedophile, and that you accuse the entire Lutheran Church of child abuse through forcible christian education.
I sincerely hope that your ACLU lawyers are adequate to the challenge you
will
put before them...though I doubt you will find any of them willing to
accept your case...BECAUSE I HAVE YOUR ORIGINAL MESSAGE ON FILE AS PROOF
OF LIBEL, making your position indefensible enough to scare them off.
EM> GH> And, yes, because our writings have gotten you to return to reading
EM> GH> the Bible, our mission has been accomplished very nicely, thank
you!
EM>
EM> Those delusions meld almost seamlessly with each other. The
EM> insidiousness of it is rather impressive. I can see how persons
EM> of average cranial capacity could be seduced by this.
Thank you. I am presuming you are hinting at an above-average cranial
capacity {your interpretation = above-average intelligence; my interpretation
is that you are hyper-cephalic/have a swelled head), which follows having
such
a "crock" implanted by your atheistic masters.
EM> Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me, boy. ;-)
They ARE amusing, tho!!! At least *I* am having fun!
EM> Sorry!
Apology needless, but accepted!
hehehehehe
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Alan Hess
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:47:53
EID:59d1 22834de0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33440542
Hi Alan.
On 02 Apr 97 20:29:37, Alan Hess penned the following to John Musselwhite
re: AHEM???
JM> While the Jews may say that, there are very large "Jews for
JM> Jesus" and "British Israelite" movements here in Calgary.
JM> Are they not "Christian Jews", Alec?
AH> No, they are Christians, period. They believe in the divinity of
AH> Jesus, which is the definition of Christian. Jews do not believe
AH> Christ, if he existed at all, was anything more than an ordinary man,
AH> and certainly don't accept the Christian belief that he was the
AH> Messiah. They can't have it both ways - the two are mutually
AH> exclusive.
Messianic Jews have existed since the beginnings of the
religion, Alan. This particular crop differs little from
those who lived and died thousands of years ago except for the
one they chose as their Anointed One.
For that matter there are "Christians" who don't believe in the
divinity of Jesus too. You can point fingers and say they
aren't True Christians or that the British Israelites
aren't really Jews, but a person's beliefs are between them and
their God. If they don't pick your pocket or break your nose
they can call themselves whatever they want.
RevJohn
... "We are here to fart around and nothing else." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
* Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-229-4858] (1:134/67)
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Michael Gothreau
|Sub: Dead god
|Date: 03 Apr 97 10:01:44
EID:0b8c 22835020
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33440543
REPLY: 1:134/67.6 10b25f70
Hi Michael...
On 03 Apr 97 08:25:29, Michael Gothreau penned the following to John Musselwhite
re: Dead god
JM> Your origin line threw me, Judith (Newcastle, ON)... I thought
JM> maybe you'd moved to God's Country! LOL!
MG>
MG> Newcastle, ON? John, you dissapoint me. Everybody knows that God's
MG> country is Nova Scotia, not Ontario...
I was refering to Canada in general, Michael. Everyone is aware
that there is no separation of C&S anywhere here.
MG> Haven't you ever listened to any Hank Snow?
I've managed to avoid him, mostly. Too busy listening to the
late Wilf Carter (known as Montana Slim even though he was from
Alberta). God... I wish she'd turn that crap down upstairs!
I consider Country & Western to be the Special Olympics of
music. What my wife hears in it is beyond me!
John
... Whizzing and pasting and pooting through the day...
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: Michael Gothreau
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: Dead god
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:53:05
EID:727e 228366a0
MSGID: 1:134/67.6 60522bd7
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 33440543
*In reference to a post left by John Musselwhite on 03 Apr 97...
* Addressed to Michael Gothreau
* Greetings John, and may this find you in good health...
* ***********************************************************
MG> Newcastle, ON? John, you dissapoint me. Everybody knows that
MG> God's country is Nova Scotia, not Ontario...
JM> I was refering to Canada in general, Michael. Everyone is
JM> aware that there is no separation of C&S anywhere here.
Hehehehehe... can't blame me for being a little partisan...
MG> Haven't you ever listened to any Hank Snow?
JM> I've managed to avoid him, mostly. Too busy listening to the
JM> late Wilf Carter (known as Montana Slim even though he was
JM> from Alberta). God... I wish she'd turn that crap down
JM> upstairs!
I know what you mean. My dad was a Hank Snow fan and my mom
listened to Jim Reeves. Get me drunk and I can play & sing most of
those old Jim Reeves tunes (which will explain amply why I drink so
little).
JM> I consider Country & Western to be the Special Olympics of
JM> music. What my wife hears in it is beyond me!
Heheheheheheh... she IS a nut ;-)
if...
Michael Gothreau http://mypage.direct.ca/g/gothreau/
gothreau@direct.ca
... Jesus died for our sins. Don't let him have died in vain. Commit them!
--- PPoint 2.02
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:15:20
EID:a3e7 228299e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e092ba
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89f5dd09
LA> S.J. Gould admits that phyletic gradualism was NEVER seen
LA> in the rocks and he also admits that there is NO EVIDENCE in
LA> the rocks for his Punctuated Equilibria, doesn't he?
Then why does the famous creationist Laurie Appleton say:
"That is one of the joys of evolutionism isn't it? Since
it ... makes a Creator superfluous, that leaves you
free."
"It provides a motivation for accepting evolution."
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Staal stinks a little lo
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:22:16
EID:692c 22829ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0a56f
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 16383539
MG>>What is the direct relationship between homosexual orientation
MG>>and inability to raise children?
KS> An interesting question, considering that presumably every
KS> homosexual person is a direct result of a heterosexual
KS> activity.
It's just that the fundies don't have a prayer on showing that persons of
ANY sexual preference are better at raising kids.
They MIGHT make a case for heterosexual parents based on some psychological
theory. I don't know yet.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Christopher Baker
|Sub: Re: Randi
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:24:25
EID:c9b9 22829b00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0aa1f
CB> i thought Fred had charge of the goat? [grin]
He certainly is, but Steve is in charge of the BBQ.
>> Er....what kind of cigars would you send?
CB> what kind [other than Cuban] would be acceptable?
A nice H. Upmann either in the #20000 or the Columbo size would be good.
Send several as Leipzig is coming over this weekend and I don't wnat to
run out. :-)
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: RE: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:27:49
EID:cf2b 22829b60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0b343
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333bfa1c
KY>> I find it sick and immoral, but it should be legal.
MG>> Do you find child abuse sick and immoral? Do you wnat
MG>> laws against it? If so, why is this different from
MG>> sodomy?
KY> Different is that when a child is abused, it is not what the
KY> child wants. But with sodomy, it is usually not forced.
KY> Unreasonable force should not be allowed, but most things as long
KY> as all parties agree to it, should be allowed.
I'm glad you think it should be legal and that the government shouldn't
be peeking into the bedrooms of consenting adults.
Now does homosexual anal sex disgust you more than heterosexual anal sex?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:31:22
EID:685b 22829be0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0bdb4
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333bface
KY>>> No, I mean ORGANIZED prayer.
MG>> Because, a public school is a government instiution and
MG>> the government is not allowed to promote any religion.
MG>> Read the Constitution.
KY> Actually, if you want to get specific, the Constitution uses the
KY> word "Congress." And last I checked, schools weren't a synonym
KY> for Congress.
The interpretation of this amendment is that no government agency will promote
any religion. All religious practice will be limited to the person.
Maybe we'll have your kids in school recite Hebrew prayers next time there
is an organized (forced) prayer recited. Would you like that?
KY> Okay.. The postal service is also part of the govt., but does
KY> that mean no religious materials should be allowed to go through
KY> the mail?
The post office is not promoting religion. It does not promote credit cards
by delivering ads for them either.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Homosexuality
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:34:42
EID:855f 22829c40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77e0ce03
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333c5de6
MG>> "The American Psychiatry Association has removed
MG>> homosexuality from it's list of disorders...and has
KY> And what do they base this on?
They base it on interviews with thousands of homosexual men and women.
Most mental pathology makes it impossible to make the person function in
society. Homosexuality does not qualify under this definition. The problem
with homosexuality in society is with persons like yoruself, not with homosexuals.
MG>> "If called upon to counsel a homosexual, the
MG>> physician's approach should in no way differ from the
MG>> approach to a heterosexual. No attempt should bemade
MG>> to try and direct him inot a heterosexual behaviro
MG>> unless he specifically requests such help."
KY> Again, opinions..
KY> And what if the person isn't gay, after all, and just thought he
KY> was due to his circle of friends.
That's right, Jelly. Ask for evidence. I present evidence. then note
that it is an "opinion", justr like the "opinion" that the Earth is round.
This is taken from a standard medical text of Internal Medicine that is
used to teach students and treat patients. It is just as unbiased on this
as it is on which antibiotics to treat Syphilis with.
MG>> that psychiatry recommends for it is due to assholes
MG>> like true xtians that claim that the gays won't be
MG>> going to heaven.
KY> Tell me, are there any sexually related disorders? Or are they
KY> all to be accepted as normal?
You bet there are. Someone who must have sex with children comes to mind.
Tell me if this precludes them from functioning in society. You bet it
does. Does homosexuality? Outside of those that condemn it for no reason,
it does not.
KY> Again, you have stated opinions from professionals, but no
KY> medical facts.
KY> Homosexuality may not be a disease, but it is a disorder, just
KY> like any deviancy.
You need to learn about evidence and how it is gathered. You cannot just
claim this to be opnion. It shows lack of intelligence to do so.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:49:05
EID:742e 22839e20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee1296
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 8dbd0595
AH>> No, he becomes a Christian, which is non-Jewish. Judaism is
AH>> a religion, not a race.
MB> It's also an ethnic identity, dimbulb. My son-in-law is an
MB> atheistic Jew. Like it or lump it. There are literally
MB> hundreds of thousands of them worldwide.
I must disagree. While you might consider yourself jewish AND atheist,
Judaism is strictly a religion. I do not consider myself any more jewsih
that the pope, but was born into the faith.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Lest we forget the dumbasses abroad
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:56:40
EID:d5fb 22839f00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee229a
REPLY: 1:123/67 333eabe1
SS> CUTUD, Philippines (Reuter) - Devout Christians had themselves
SS> nailed to wooden crosses while others beat their own backs with
SS> whips in a bloody re-enactment of Jesus Christ's crucifixion on
SS> Good Friday nearly 2,000 years ago.
Ha Ha...morons.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jim Staal
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:57:42
EID:b530 22839f20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee270f
REPLY: 1:228/45.5 940fa250
SS>> 1KI 7:23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape,
SS>> measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high.
SS>> It took a line of thirty
SS>> cubits to measure around it. [24] Below the rim, gourds
JS> Like I said, I have seen Pi anywhere in the Bible.
The intelligent man can look at these statements and understand them. With
responses like the one above, you make me wonder if you have any smarts
at all.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Lou Dripkin
|To: Scott Taylor
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:02:30
EID:8f27 2283a040
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee2ff3
REPLY: 3:800/432.0 333c066e
MG>> They obviously had seen some of my college dates.
ST> THAT, or Tasmania was founded by Dripkins
The devil you say....
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Harry Truman.
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:03:04
EID:2b37 2283a060
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee3805
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89fd5c5f
MG>> Then why does the famous creationist Laurie Appleton say:
LA> Famous eh? Why do you say that? Are you suggesting that I
LA> have upset more evolutionists than anyone else on this Echo?
MG>> "That is one of the joys of evolutionism isn't it? Since
MG>> it ... makes a Creator superfluous, that leaves you
MG>> free."
MG>> "It provides a motivation for accepting evolution."
LA> S.J. Gould admits that phyletic gradualism was NEVER seen
LA> in the rocks and he also admits that there is NO EVIDENCE in
LA> the rocks for his Punctuated Equilibria, doesn't he?
I see, that in that timy fragment of brain lodged in that thick hominid
skull of yours, you have finally seen my point.
Quoting people from context is lying. Making Laurie Appleton into an evolutionist
(or even a human) is lying just as badly as mkaing gould sound like he supports
creationism.
Your lies have been repeatedly exposed as frauds. Repeatedly. Why do you
continue.
And now, on a more personal basis, Dr. Leipzig and myself were chatting
the other evening ont he telephone ( a communication device used in civilized
countries) and just wondered how old you were.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Bill Wolff
|Sub: ACT LIKE A CHRISTIAN
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:06:41
EID:7491 2283a0c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.221 77ee3eb4
BW> ROTFL! I didn't claim that Carl Sagan supported creationism, you
BW> twit! I merely agreed with Sagan when he admitted that the fossil
BW> record could be consistent with a designer. And more importantly,
BW> it would be more logical to believe with "a Designer of a
BW> more remote and indirect temperament."
Liar.
> > HP> Yo, Bill -- you can say it all you want, but around here you
> > HP> have to demonstrate it. Provide evidence. Remember, you said
> > HP> in DR_DEBUG that you could easily convince anyone of this.
> > HP> Time to put up or shut up.
> > BW> Okay where do you want me to start? How about with Carl
> > BW> Sagan? In his book Cosmos, he candidly admits "The fossil
> > BW> evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
> > BW> Designer."
> HP> Carl goes on to say that it would have to be an idiotic "great
> HP> designer" and that there's a better explanation -- natural
> HP> selection -- that matches the facts better.
BW>Oh really?
BW>Proof got in there because that is all the evolutionists have as far
BW>as proof goes.
BW>Carl Sagan didn't claim that evolution had positively had taken
BW>place!
There it is, Billy. In all it's glory. Billy Wolff, the creationist makes
an ass of himself. with each passing minute you make an even bigger ass
of yourself. Keep it up. It's most amusing, Factualist.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Curb Your God (1:124/9005.221)
SEEN-BY: 124/1 9000 9005 218/890
PATH: 124/9005
|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:29:46
EID:f42e 22838ba0
MSGID: 1:229/622 3343e90b
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 77dd8b5b
CHRS: IBMPC 2
PID: FleetStreet 1.18+
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
-=> J.J. complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Doug <=-
JH> I'll admit there are a number of folk who will agree that
JH> self-castration is a worthwhile activity, but I'm not one
JH> of them.
ROFL
You can't think of one or 2 that it would fit the designation
'worth-while'?
JH> 39 people to keep? You think they found some dirty pictures of
JH> Janet Reno or something?
What an OBSCENE idea. You really do have a warped mind.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.30
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle ON Canada (1:229/622)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 229/600 3615/50 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:38:00
EID:11e4 22834cc0
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> As soon as you prove I do not hold a promissory note for $1 million
RH> signed by you and now overdue. Pay up!
GH> *IF* I indeed signed it, it will be possible to prove in a court of
GH> law. With a million dollars at stake, surely you don't mind paying off
GH> some poor beknighted soul to perjure himself to attest to the
GH> authenticity of my signature. However, what will you do about the
GH> demand for finger print identification??? Or did you work for the
GH> Arvada Police Department
But George, you're asking me to prove I have it. I asked you to prove I
DON'T.
Big difference, which is the point I was making.
GH> while at the USGS, so you have another convenient friend that can
GH> steal my fingerprints from some file? If you have a set of prints,
GH> burn them because the only place anyone could have obtained a set of
GH> prints like that
GH> would be from a highly-restricted Government file...or is HE the one
GH> who stole my wallet?
RH> Since I worked at the USGS, which is located on the Mines campus,
RH> I can unequivocally state that you are full of shit.
GH> That's like claiming "I know Col. Sanders' secret recipe because I eat
GH> a ton of his chicken...shit, I'm smart!" OOOPS...the fundy said a
GH> *BAD* WORDDDD!! hehehehe
Tsk, tsk. God will get you for that. And that was a bad analogy you
gave. It's more like saying "I know the secret recipe because I
worked there."
GH> As stated above...to read my commentary on this, and many other claims
GH> made in this echo by myself or other participants...go find the
GH> dialogue between Richard Smith and myself..Richard has offered to be
GH> Speaker for [the brain]Dead...as befits his position in an alternate
GH> religious persuasion
GH> that believes in a correlative force/being who is diametrically
GH> opposed to both sides of this debate.
I saw it and agreed with the choice. But I see him as an arbiter, not
a conduit. I will address you directly, he can judge between us in
matters of truth and accuracy.
... Blind people don't bungee jump; it scares the dog too much.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CLONES
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:39:00
EID:c20b 22834ce0
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> ... Don't worry - Cthulhu LIKES your sense of humor.
GH> I *AM* aware of that...he is one of my Co-SysOp's...tho even HE has
GH> given up hope of teaching YOU the finer points of basic theistic
GH> dogma.
Don't worry about it. I'm well versed in your mythology.
... My hard disk is full! Maybe I'll try this message section thing.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:48:00
EID:3cc8 22834e00
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
GH> The UNDERSTANDING of science has changed, perhaps, but NOT the
GH> science itself...
Perhaps you mean the methods do not change? But the theories
certainly change, to accomodate new information.
GH> And I'm retired from the U.S. Air Force...but *I* never "flew" a
GH> plane, altho I have operated a few computers.
It's a large organization.
GH> I visited the `quake center, and my grandchildren were duly impressed
GH> by all the pretty flashing lights! What a marvelous skill it must
be
GH> to be able to make all those light bulbs flash at random intervals!
GH> One thing escapes me, though...what IS their connection to reality?
Oh, I'm sure you did not understand that .
GH> If USGS is so "UP" on things geologic and seismologic, why weren't the
GH> people in Los Angeles better warned about the Monster Quake about 3
GH> years ago??? BEFORE
GH> your boss had to be told about it by the media calling for data?
Damn, you really are ignorant, aren't you.
Quakes can't be predicted yet. We know pretty much WHERE but not
WHEN they will happen.
And it takes time to locate one from seismogram readings, whereas
anyone IN one knows it has happened immediately.
GH> Look at Roger Blush!!! Is THAT why you retired??? Gee, I'm
GH> Sorry!!!
Yes, you are.
... SENILE.COM found . . . Out Of Memory . . .
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: MAXI-POST
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:52:00
EID:b8a6 22834e80
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Matter of fact, I take potshots at the Pagans once in awhile, just
RH> to even things out a bit.
GH> I see what Richard means when he says he has something to lose on the
GH> atheist side as well...idiot followers like you...
Followers? ME? Well, I follow the truth wherever it leads, if that's
what you have in mind.
RH> No. We know you are a liar.
GH> And you don't realize I know that you are a liar, as well? Can you
GH> say "out of touch with reality?"
Can you provide any evidence for that assertion? If not, you are
a liar once again.
... Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason.- Randi
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:59:00
EID:a4e7 22834f60
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Roger Hunter <=-
MB> Shared needles are a choice that is entirely within the control
MB> of the individual, as is taking needle drugs to begin with.
Agreed. I spoke too quickly, there.
MB> The odds of finding a rapist who is also HIV+ aren't that
MB> good; it is certianly no greater than the risk of being
MB> shot by a mugger. We all assume risks that result simply
MB> from living in close proximity to other human beings. A
MB> risk that small is certainly no reason to set up concentration
MB> camps that hold literally hundreds of thousand (and possibly
MB> millions) of human beings that have committed no crime of
MB> any kind for which they have been convicted.
True, but not the point. Cars kill many more each year but we
don't ban them; we NEED them. We don't need carriers of fatal
illness running around loose.
MB> The cost of testing every human being in this country alone
MB> makes your hare-brained scheme ill-advised.
And how much is YOUR life worth?
RH> But no, I'm saying government should protect us from the
RH> criminally stupid, who run around spreading fatal illnesses.
MB> From which we have the ability to protect ourselves.
Shall we fire the cops because you can protect your own life?
Get rid of firemen because you can put out a fire?
These ARE government functions.
RH> And that IS a proper function for government.
MB> No, it isn't. It isn't the responsibility of Government
MB> to protect us from the hazards of everyday life, nor is
MB> it the responsibility of Government to protect us from
MB> our own stupidity.
Not our own; other people's.
RH> ....File not found. Should I fake it? (Y/N)
MB> Why not, you're faking intelligence and love of freedom.
Ouch! I'm SO hurt...
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Mark O'neill
|Sub: HA!
|Date: 03 Apr 97 10:24:00
EID:9c5e 22835300
-=> Quoting Mark O'neill to Jim Staal <=-
JS> Are you just the exception or are all gays minds on
JS> filthy illicit sex all the time?
MO> Evidence for "filthy, illicit sex" is?
Ahem... while I hate to agree with Staal on anything, he is right
here, if we are discussing anal sex. It's a matter of definition
and law. The interior of the colon cannot be totally clean
and such acts are illegal in many states already.
... Of course I'm sane. The voices said so.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: The Grotto - Arvada, CO (303) 421-7186 V.32bis (1:104/251)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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PATH: 104/251 627 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Sally Springett
|To: J.j. Hitt
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:34:00
EID:97ae 22833440
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ a2778b1e
JH> Where are the weapons? Doomsday folks traditionally love
JH> haveing large (huge) arsenals. So far, there hasn't been any
JH> mention of weapons. But something tells me (no, not voices
JH> from space, just my own intuition) that there ought to be lots
JH> and lots of weapons.
You called it! They found the weapons in rented storage. There
didn't seem to be a huge number but they DID find weapons belonging
to the group.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
* Origin: Knight Moves - Rochester,NY 716-865-2106 (1:2613/313)
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 2613/313 5 270/101 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 02 Apr 97 07:55:00
EID:e323 22823ee0
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f85
Dan Ceppa, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Karen
Davis
-> On 24 Mar 97 14:44:37, Karen Davis got back to Ken Wiens
KW> I see for abortion are if it is necessary to save
KW> the life of the mother by so doing.
KD> So you would execute a 12 year old who sought an abortion for a
KD> pregnancy caused by incest?
DC> Why does the movie _China Town_ seem to ring a bell?
Just a hunch...the same reason "Quasimodo" does?
... "Geez, Tolkien couldn't follow this plot!" -Crow, "Cave Dwellers" ___
Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
* Origin: CHANNEL Q 281-589-2991 (1:106/4015.0)
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 106/4015 2001 2000 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Ewlmer Fudd
|Sub: Hunting churches
|Date: 02 Apr 97 07:57:00
EID:aa0f 22823f20
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f86
Ewlmer Fudd, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Damien
Wellman
-> On 27 Mar 97 16:11:30, Damien Wellman got back to Marilyn Burge
FR> Ken Young Jelly> And no, currently I am church hunting..
FR> Just imagine the lucky church he finds.
MB> What I want to know is how many points you get for bagging a church.
DW> CHURCH SEASON!
DW> TEMPLE SEASON!
DW> CHURCH SEASON!!
DW> TEMPLE SEASON!!
DW> (Shades of Daffy and Bugs...)
EF> Blwammmm! It's Mosque Season! hehehehehehehe
Ashram season!
... "Jesse, as a paleoanthropologist, you'd be a great pastry chef." -MRL
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
* Origin: CHANNEL Q 281-589-2991 (1:106/4015.0)
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SEEN-BY: 3652/1 3667/1
PATH: 106/4015 2001 2000 396/1 124/1 9005
|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Profanity 01
|Date: 02 Apr 97 07:58:00
EID:0864 22823f40
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f87
Katherine Wintersnight, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to,
said to Judith Bandsma
JB>-=> Katherine complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Judith
KW> <=-
JB> KW> They're just waiting for you to turn your back. Somehow, I feel,
the
JB> KW> B*** Council is involved!
JB>Now you've gone and done it.
KW> Uh......what blue council?
The ones with the black helicopters.
... Cheeses of Nazareth: New age Deli in Jerusalem ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: MEGGEROMANIA
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:06:00
EID:3e37 2283a8c0
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f88
Ed Mills, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to Martin
Goldberg
EM> while (insert vocational humor here), Martin Goldberg said to Ed
EM> Mills:
EM> The Lexus-fondler who nails me on my bike is well advised to make
EM> damn sure that the `accident' disables my index finger. ;-)
MG> I get ten extra point if I can hit them and leave them in an open
MG> sewer.
EM> Yeah, but how many feet per second can a Lexus go?
32,000.
But you have to set the charges *just* right...
... Cicero in a sushi bar: "O tempura! O morays!" ___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:19:00
EID:c78b 2283aa60
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f89
Judith Bandsma, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to
Christopher Hughes
-=> Christopher complained of warm pie, cold coffee, and no paper to Ken
<=-
> You can read a recent work confirming this called "Darwin's Black Box."
CH> Haven't read it, will look for it. More stuff to laugh at.
JB>
JB> That's one Mike Hardy was heavily espousing...and then backed off of
JB> when he found that it didn't really hold water.
Like a clepsydra.
... Well, there's Sb, As, Al, Se; Sr, Ca, P, and Rh; Ni, Nd, Np, Ge... ___
Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marty Leipzig
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: News Article
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:34:00
EID:ef6c 2283ac40
TID: InterEcho 1.19 00000000
MSGID: 1:106/4015.0 6d1c1f8a
J.j. Hitt, camping in a desert canyon in a psilomelane-to, said to All
JH> On Apr 01 23:15 97, J.C. Kibler of 1:203/9046 wrote:
JK> This was found on the Science echo
JK> REUTERS, March 31, 1997
JH> (Note the date.)
JK> Marl T. Geipizy, head of geology at Turkey's Bzurkturk
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ JK> University,
MY COUSIN!
... "Benighted idiot? You're soaking in it!"
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
# PDQWK 2.5 #40
--- GTMail 1.26
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Why I am a WOA
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:22:29
EID:1159 228332c0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 64e0c91b
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e912b48
On (02 Apr 97) George Harper babbled to Marilyn Burge...
MB> ever since like that is where I truly belong. There's no lonely
MB> gods, just concerned, happy, productive people who believe
MB> stronly in helping their fellow human beings. Right here on
MB> Earth. With no heavenly rewards, but just the reward of knowing
MB> they have done something helpful for another human being.
MB> ... Fundamentalism is merely stupidity raised to a higher power.
GH> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
GH> as opposed to "concerned, happy, productive people" [sounds like a
GH> communist travel and immigration brochure to me]. Have you ever
GH> watched/read SOYLENT GREEN? The "perfect society" you describe could
GH> be a direct paraphrase of parts of that work...purely fictional, of
GH> course.
No way! We help other people because we love humanity, as opposed
to thinking they were born evil and incapable of helping themselves
without the "aid" of some imaginary superfriend.
There is nothing communistic about finding joy in helping others
for the sheer sake of helping. No "eternal" rewards, no Eye in
the Sky zapping us if we don't help. Just the sheer joy of seeing
another human being get beyond the stumbling block that currently
impedes their own joyful journey through life.
... Can we pay $5 million to *make* God take Oral Roberts home?
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 03 Apr 97 06:53:17
EID:b607 228336a0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 d93548f1
REPLY: 1:2613/313@ b0c57702
On (28 Mar 97) Sally Springett babbled to George Harper...
SS> A bat is defined as a mammal because it has fur rather than
SS> feathers and reproduces as other mammals do rather than
SS> laying eggs. Your
No, what defines a mammal is nursing its young. (Ya know:
mammaries and all that.)
... The secret of flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Ed Mills
|Sub: Fundy Frolics 1/3
|Date: 03 Apr 97 07:00:53
EID:6f18 22833800
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 bd43bfb0
REPLY: 1:105/24.12 c559cc73
On (29 Mar 97) Ed Mills babbled to Rod Swift...
EM> while (insert vocational humor here), Rod Swift said to Ken Wiens:
RS> Oh yes! I love performing abortions too. If you partially birth
RS> them, the foetuses scream as you pierce the backs of their neck.
RS> I even suck out the brains by siphoning it out with my mouth.
RS> It allows one to blow it back in and hence scramble the brains
RS> before finally removing them!
EM> Apparently I'm going to have to work a little harder to keep
EM> the title of "most disgusting motherfucker on the echo." :-)
He's describing how fundies are made.
... FUNDAMENTALISM is never having to open your mind.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 03 Apr 97 08:23:01
EID:7db1 228342e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442266
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A348
Solving the Riddle of the Sphincter, KY said "Court Records" to Sean
Coldren, adding:
> > > FR> Thanks in advance, homophobic pig!
> > > Evidence?
> > Evidence? Now, you know perfectly well they have a problem with
> > things that.
> Boy Ken.... They are really getting to know you. :) Homophobic
> pig.... well they got the homophobic thing right, but not the pig
> part. For as much as we disagree on stuff, including the Gay
> issue, I don't think of you as a pig. A very..... stubborn, thick
> headed, person, but not a pig. :)
KY> You would be right, except why would I be afraid of gays? Am I
KY> afraid of you? Hardly.. So how am I this fictional
KY> "homophobic?"
Homophobia is the fear of homosexual tendencies within
_oneself_, and not the fear of them in others. It is typically
expressed by a hatred of, or violence toward, others who display
those feared tendencies.
KY> That would make as much sense as you being afraid of someone
KY> because he was a Christian.
A parallel "Christophobia" would be my fearing that _I_ was in
danger of becoming a Christian. Not something I lose much sleep
over.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Spiritual Autoeroticism
|Date: 03 Apr 97 09:04:09
EID:d491 22834880
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442267
FYI: Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, one of the Pope's closest
advisors, said to the French weekly, L'Express, "Buddhism is a sort
of spiritual autoeroticism." (Time, April 7, 1997, p 21)
Who says that gays are the only ones who try to sexualize
everything? Let's hear it for the nominally celibate suits of a
sort of spiritual circle jerk!
Well, circle jerks _are_ more communal than individual
meditation I can hear the Christers chirping . . . .
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:15:26
EID:151e 228389e0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442dfb
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e970818
George Harper said "Portals Of Prayer Apr 2" to All, adding:
GH> Wednesday Apr 2
GH> CLOSE TO HIM
GH> IN THE SAME WAY, COUNT YOURSELVES DEAD TO SIN BUT ALIVE TO GOD IN
GH> CHRIST JESUS Romans 6:11
GH> When we are separated from a loved one we feel sad and lonely.
OK, who sent the fundy into Mootherfucker mode?
Now we'll get loads of this spam for months until he says
something nasty to Rod Swift and disappears in a puff of tracts.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: News Article
|Date: 03 Apr 97 16:49:48
EID:dcb3 22838620
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442dfc
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 77dea092
J.J. Hitt said "News Article" to All, adding:
JK> Marl T. Geipizy, head of geology at Turkey's Bzurkturk
JK> University, estimates the age of the 'cross' at more than
JK> 1800 years.
JH> Bezerk Turk University?!?!
You don't see a Marty Leipzig possibility anagrammed into that
department head?*
_______
* Naval term for executive john.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Book Specimen 2
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:09:35
EID:f35b 22838920
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33442dfd
Here is a second installment of the introduction (I am really
warming to the subject of me)!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
But by the time I arrived at the state of adolescence, I
was so put off by the wide discrepancies between the claims
of Christians and their observed behavior that I regarded
joining them as too a great a price to pay for a share of
their community power. I did take one last fling at a Sunday
School held at a community hall near Bangor, but that was
more out of a hopeless lust for Jackie and Jerry Yatsonoff
who attended there than it had to do with any deities.
Jackie and Jerry were equally amiable and darkly lovely:
their Russian surnames had come through Alaska, acquiring
some, I think, Aleut in passage. They were equally lovely,
being identical twins, and I yearned for them equally, too:
either or both would have done me a treat. Had either of
them offered to hold my hand, I probably would have come to
Christ on the spot, but since neither did, I found the
weekly readings from the Gospel According to St. John
(pamphlet edition) by some terribly earnest person with
stringy hair too great a price to pay for attendence.
Ah, Jackie (or Jerry), what a chance was there missed to
bring a sinner into the fold! I am afraid I really was not
very much of a sinner at the time, but with Jerry (or
Jackie), I was certainly willing to learn. Sadly, these were
the days before Jack Chick Publications had made whoring for
Christ a popular activity for young believers, so Jackie,
Jerry, and I retained our respective virginities, vis a vis
one another, to this very day.
I remain, however, open to offers.
In my high school, secular interests prevailed. I
suppose that if asked, most students would have identified
themselves as christians, just as they would have identified
themselves as white (Silverdale acquired its first black
family around 1954): it was not something that most people
bothered to spend much time thinking about. The lower-case
"c" is deliberate, incidentally: "christians" are to me
decent, ordinary people who try to get through life as best
they can and who display a Bible in the living room. I
reserve "Christians" to denote people interested in
inflicting their theological notions on others: the Reverend
Mister Nazarinus was indubitably a Christian.
In any event, I managed to avoid Christians pretty much
by having no discernable social life whatsoever during those
years, even though computers had not then been invented. My
father was trying to launch his own electric company, like
every other former Navy Yard employee after the reductions
following the WWII, so our family's hold on a middle-class
income was tenuous, at best. I had a job, putting myself, as
it were, through high school. Actually, it was one of the
best jobs I have ever had: I was an apprentice printer in a
country print shop, where I learned a craft closer to what
Shakespeare knew than what goes on in printshops today.
After my first year, I was setting two full-page ads every
week (by hand, using moveable type just like Guttenberg's)
for the newspaper, The Silverdale Breeze, and I did job
printing from typesetting, paper cutting, making the platen
press ready, and running off the work (again, by hand, one
at a time). There are, I submit, precious few jobs in which
a 15-year-old kid gets to produce a professional product
from beginning to end: doing this was a source of great
pride and confidence to me. I learned a craft, which I later
learned is a word derived from the German Kraft. It means
strength, and it felt that way to me--I felt stronger
because I was able to do something worthwhile.
Another strength that came from The Silverdale Breeze
was emotional. The place was family; in some ways it was a
better family than the one I had been born into. We cared
about each other and we depended upon each other: everything
that got done was produced by four persons: the owner,
George T. Harrison, Jr., who did every task in the shop, his
wife, Zoe, who wrote the copy, proofread, and kept the
books, Rolen Malde, a journeyman printer who did most of the
linotyping and ran the flatbed newspaper press, and myself.
We all worked and worked hard, and we loved it. It was a
great place for a kid to be, and I miss them dearly.
And there was another strength arising from this job: to
be a printer is to lose any notion that because something
is "in black and white" it is, somehow, the TRVTH. Printers
know that stuff gets into black and white because somebody
has paid them to put it there: the only way to tell the
bullshit from the genuine is to read it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
(more, of course, to come).
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Religious Tyranny Amendment
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:35:34
EID:5d33 22836460
MSGID: 1:18/14 3343EA66
PID: GenMsg 5.00 [0002]
Date: 03 Apr 97 17:35:34 UTC
* Copy of message posted via A_THEIST
* Date: 03 Apr 97 12:29:14
* From: Christopher Baker
* To: All
* Message text was not edited!
From: Rbargodnow@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:26:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Religious Tyranny Amendment
Dear Mr. Baker,
Here is a column I wrote for the American Atheist Newsletter re:RFA
You may circulate based on the conditions at the bottom of this short
essay.
THE PROPOSED "RELIGIOUS FREEDOM" AMENDMENT
a brief overview by Ronald J. Barrier
American Atheists, Inc.
On March 24, 1997, Rep. Ernest J. Istook, Jr. (R-OK), along with
the usual cadre of religious conservatives, most notably Ralph Reed,
executive director of the Christian Coalition, introduced for the
third time a "religious freedom" amendment to the constitution. This
amendment, if successful, would completely gut the first amendment and
entangle the government with religion in such a way as to make the
current relationship most welcome.
Before we go any further let us look at the proposed wording.
"To secure the people's right to acknowledge God: The right to
pray or acknowledge religious belief, heritage or tradition on public
property, including public schools, shall not be infringed. The
Government shall not compel joining in prayer, initiate or compose
school prayers, discriminate against or deny a benefit on account of
religion."
Innocent enough? Or is it? This peculiar wording begs several
questions which should be addressed before such an undertaking as
amending the constitution is pursued.
1) "To secure the people's right to acknowledge God" What god
are they referring to that believers, for some incomprehensible
reason, need a secular, civil statement to grant them the right to
acknowledge? It seems that the government is being asked to suggest
that the current crop of popular divinities, from yahweh to babalu,
including the supporting castmembers which accompany most of the
major skybosses, are relatively neutral. That is to say, they are all
interchangeable, nebulous beings without any particularly distinct
features. So pick one, any one. As long as you have a divinity to
acknowledge, you are on sound legal footing. Some additional wording
would be necessary just within the first eight words. How about - "To
secure the people's right to acknowledge ANY God," or, " To secure the
people's right to acknowledge or reject any God..." No, this won't do
simply because I know and you know that they mean the christian god,
and thou shalt have no other gods before him. This is simply a sneaky
and disingenuous way to get the word "god" into the constitution
without defining what god they are specifically referring to and why.
This is totally antithetical to the first amendment as currently
worded. This is pure, unadulterated religious authoritarianism - an
attempt to coerce conformity of thought through the use of the
government apparatus.
2) "The right to pray or acknowledge religious belief, heritage
or tradition..." - Rather than go into a lengthy argument rejecting
this phrase (I suggest American Atheist Magazine August 1995 Edition
"A Matter of Prayer" for a complete history of the prayer fight) it is
suffice to say that no law has ever been passed (or even considered)
that would, in any way, take away a person's right to pray if they so
choose to do so. What was removed was coerced participation in
orchestrated rituals specific to the christian sect and the mandatory
reading of excerpts from only christian literature. As Atheists who
pride ourselves in intellectual freedom we also recognize that the
individual has the right to acknowledge religious belief, heritage or
tradition to their heart's content. Certainly even we acknowledge
religious belief, heritage or tradition. We may think it's insane,
irrational, insulting, damaging, and a mental disease, but we
acknowledge it. We may also ascertain that religious heritage is
appalling, but we acknowledge it nonetheless.
3) "...on public property, including public schools, shall not be
infringed. -
Bingo! There it is. What this essentially means is that
religious organizations can now take it upon themselves, under the
rubric of "religious expression", to walk into any government or
public facility, such as a public school, a courtroom, a museum,
planetarium, library, post office, etc. and immediately demand that
all persons in that facility STOP what they are doing and witness
(either as a participant or an observer) the unique choreography
employed by which adherents conjure their deity to perform tricks or
grant favors. Of course remember that the presumption is that this
deity would never do such things unless incessantly implored to do so
by the faithful. When properly addressed, the deity will then abandon
the predestined future (of which he or she or it has complete
knowledge) and change its mind on behalf of the supplicants. This now
makes every public edifice a potential "Instant Conjure Chamber." And
this right to turn any public building into an advertisement for the
promotion of specific products is to be given only to the religious
industry. What? You say religion is not an industry? I'm sorry but
maybe I misinterpreted the thousands of TV stations, thousands of
radio stations, over 350,000 tax-free religiously owned properties
specifically designed to be esthetically pleasing to their divinities,
book stores, printing businesses, , music and film companies,
insurance companies, stock/bond holding companies, investment firms,
marketing firms, phone companies. etc., owned by organized religions.
Maybe by some stretch of the imagination all of these things do not
constitute an industry, but if I'm wrong I submit myself to criticism
willingly.
The "religious freedom" amendment would not only provide
"special rights" to the religious industry, but would enhance the
variety of "special rights" it already enjoys.
a) Religion would become the only industry to have the
constitutionally protected "special right" to go into schools and sell
their con game and related paraphenalia, such as literature, candles,
charms, amulets, sacramentals, etc., - without any restrictions
whatsoever. They would be able to conduct faith demonstrations
consisting of various conjuring rituals upon minor children and use
these devices to divide students into easily identifiable groups,
ultimately targeting non-christians and non-believers as potential
kneebenders and future sources of income. This is a direct attempt by
religious advocates to prey on the imaginations (and eventually
pocketbooks) of immature minds before young people have the cognitive
critical thinking skills necessary to refute arguments predicated on
superstition, fear, and guilt. This could be accomplished behind
parents backs and without their permission.
b) This would create an environment in the public school which
would require young immature children to publicly declare their
religious leanings to their peers and administrators at the beginning
of the school day. If the religious opinions are the most popular,
the child is accepted by his/her peers. If the religious opinion is a
minority opinion, or if the child is your child -an Atheist child -
he or she is subject to ridicule, scorn, and isolation by the
majoritarian group. This would eventually destroy the classroom
environment necessary to promote education. This bill hoodwinks the
government into giving preference to superstition and indoctrination
over critical thinking and education within the public school milieu.
Ultimately this weakens a teachers ability to teach, and a students
ability to learn. The introduction of sectarianism in the public
schools would turn them into religious warzones.
4) "The Government shall not compel joining in prayer, initiate
or compose school prayers,..." - Allow me to be brief. It seems
that this phrase contradicts the first sentence of this proposed
amendment where the government is in fact being used to advocate
the"....right to acknowledge God: The right to pray..." The
government is in fact compelling the right to pray by giving these
"special rights" to believers and by acknowledging and promoting
belief over non-belief.
5) "...discriminate against or deny a benefit on account of
religion." -To borrow a phrase from former presidential candidate Ross
Perot, "That sucking sound you hear..." will be taxpayer dollars
flowing from the public trough into the religious coffers. In other
words, the religious industry would benefit by dipping into the public
fisc in ways that regular secular businesses are prevented from doing.
This amendment would give additional "special rights" that the average
business owner is enjoined from benefitting in. This amendment would
promote unfair business practices and offer advantages that only the
religious industry could only avail itself of.
This proposed amendment is nothing more than a Trojan Horse by
which other aspects of theological bigotry would be introduced into
the public classroom. Both Pat Robertson, head of the 700 Club and
the Christian Coalition, and his legal song and dance man, Jay Sekulow
of the American Center for Law and Justice have both, in literature
and in the media, expressed a desire to destroy the public school
system of the United States, This amendment is the first blow.
This proposed amendment is a blow against an Atheist's civil
right to reject religious intrusion into his or her life. It would
forcibly expose Atheist children to bizarre and repugnant practices,
rituals and superstitious. irrational ideas. It would be used as a
divisive tool in the classroom and would put your child in the
position of "second-class" status if your child refuses to go along
with the currently popular voodoo chants. As Atheists we are now
being relegated to the back of the classroom as well as the back of
the bus. We are in fact, the "Niggers of the Nineties"
Ronald J. Barrier
National Media Coordinator
American Atheists, Inc
rbarrier@atheists.org
http://www.atheists.org
ftp.atheists.org/pub/
"If there were a god, religion would be would be out of business"
C-1997 American Atheist Press
No portion of this commentary may be made without proper credit being
given to the author and American Atheists, Inc.
-30-
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|From: Christopher Baker
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Top 15 Surprises on the Vatican's Website
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:35:56
EID:b1c5 22836460
MSGID: 1:18/14 3343EA7C
PID: GenMsg 5.00 [0002]
Date: 03 Apr 97 17:35:56 UTC
* Copy of message posted via A_THEIST
* Date: 03 Apr 97 12:29:56
* From: Christopher Baker
* To: All
* Message text was not edited!
From: top5@lists.zdnet.com
Subject: Top5 - 4/2/97 - Surprises on the Vatican's New Website
Errors-To: top5-errors@lists.zdnet.com
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:24:41 MST
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[ This list copyright 1997 by Chris White and Ziff Davis, Inc. ]
[ The Top Five List top5@walrus.com http://www.topfive.com ]
The Top Five List for April 2, 1997
The Top 15 Surprises on the Vatican's New Website
15> Pictures of the Pontiff's recent nipple piercing.
14> J.P.'s turn-ons: Pointy Hats. Turn-offs: Terrorists with guns.
13> After saying 3 "Hail Mary's" and 2 "Our Father's," your
download time is *much* faster.
12> Third "Secret of Fatima" revealed to be no more than warning
for larger women to avoid horizontal stripes.
11> Lyrics to "Yo, The Pope is Dope!" rap duet with Ice-T.
10> "Thou shalt not use blinking text" is officially the 11th
commandment.
9> Blowup of "The Last Supper" reveals small containers of
applesauce and pudding.
8> Downloadable sound clips from Sunday's Easter mass, as well as
from "Happy Gilmore" and "Tommy Boy."
7> Secret Vatican City recipe for Long Island Iced Tea!
6> Hidden BathroomCam debunks that rumor about what the Pope does
"in the woods."
5> Constant updates of Cardinals & Padres scores.
4> The Numero Uno link on the "Top 10 E-Tickets To Hell" list?
www.topfive.com!
3> Chocolate rosary beads for sale: "They're Catholicious!"
2> While the Pope himself may be infallible, the web site crashes
more than Kelsey Grammer on his way home from a bachelor party.
and the Number 1 Surprise on the Vatican's New Website...
1> Online "Confess-O-Rama" nothing more than a chat room run by
some guy named Chester.
Selected from 102 submissions from 36 contributors.
Today's Top Five List authors are:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sam Evans, Charleston, SC -- 1 (7th #1 -- Hall of Famer)
Jeff Downey, Raleigh, NC -- 2
Alan Smithee, Sugar Land, TX -- 2
Cathie Walker, Victoria, BC, Cananda -- 3
Mitch Patterson, Atlanta, GA -- 4
Sue Prifogle, Rushville, IN -- 5
Kris Johnson, Burbank, CA -- 6
Kim Moser, New York, NY -- 6
Craig Stacey, St. Paul, MN -- 7 (Oooh, how cute!)
Tisha Stacey, St. Paul, MN -- 8 (Oooh, how cute!)
Vickie Neilson, Carlsbad, CA -- 9
Duncan Carling, San Francisco, CA -- 10
Ed Brooksbank, Sacramento, CA -- 11
Caroline Gennity, Virginia Beach, VA -- 12
Chris Gleason, Germantown, MD -- 13
Paul Schindler, Orinda, CA -- 14
Steve Hurd, San Ramon, CA -- 15
Michael Wolf, Brookline, MA -- Topic
Chris White, New York, NY -- List owner/editor
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ruminations & Ponderances
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: CE
|Date: 02 Apr 97 04:44:00
EID:571f 22822580
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 33445bc1
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, John Musselwhite cast CE at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.
RH> Mathematically, it's WRONG. The first year of the CE should
RH> have been 0CE.
SA> Actually, shouldn't it have been simply 0 (no CE or BCE?)
JM>
JM> No... this whole argument is really dumb, Sue. The first year
JM> isn't the zeroth year, it's the first year. If it were to be
JM> measured it would be in fractions, but it would still be
JM> fractions of one, not zero.
Actually, I was just pointing out the error of tacking a positive
(or negative) onto a zero in the first place.
SA> ie, ... 3 BCE, 2 BCE, 1 BCE, 0, 1 CE, 2 CE, 3 CE ...
SA> Right? Because 0 is always neither positive nor negative?
SA> Or am I that mathematically stunted?
JM> The problem is that in this case "0" doesn't exist. We are
JM> discussing a point in time rather than the absence of a point
JM> in time. There is one side or the other, but never a point when
JM> neither side "isn't".
Indeed, but in the case of a year label, it's just that - a label.
You could call it "Q" and it wouldn't make much difference.
SA> Hell with it. Maybe we should just count the years from the
SA> formation of the Earth. This would be year 4.5 billion and
JM> Well, for convenience we split time into "eras". The beginning
JM> of the Common Era, while often thought of as the Christian Era
JM> (anno domini), actually lies as much with prophecy as it does
JM> with the birth of Jesus. It was long believed that a
JM> thousand-year cycle was about to end, and the year we consider
JM> to be the "first" year of Jesus' life (which was more like the
JM> fourth to seventh actually) was the first year of a prophesied
JM> "New Era". This new era was adopted by later Christians as
JM> their own since knowledge of it already existed and convincing
JM> people at the time that the new era was the Christian one was
JM> rather easy.
No shit.
SA> something. :) It's got to be better than some American in an
SA> article someone posted here saying the entire world should start
SA> counting dates from the American Revolution. That's as bad as the
SA> CURRENT system.
JM> Some have suggested 1945 as the year the next era should begin,
JM> but I don't think it has yet.
I've heard something about that - Before Atomics and Post-Atomics.
JM> I predict that within the next five-seven years the first true
JM> anti-agathic (anti-aging/death) drugs will appear on the
JM> market, followed by an exodus of people off-planet within ten
JM> years of that. The next era will be "ad astra" (to the stars)
JM> or as Heinlein predicted, "Diaspora", but it will mark the year
JM> people leave this planet permanently. Once it happens, ask
JM> yourself if you're in the zeroth or the first year.
Again, it wouldn't really matter if we called the current year year
"1 NE" or year 0 (with last year being 1 OE and next year being 1
NE). It's an aribtrary label; people using the system would still
know what time period you were talking about some years down the
road; and it wouldn't particularly matter if it made sense to them
or not, as they'd still accept it (assuming they'd accept a calendar
change in the first place.) Similarly, it would make just as much
sense to relabel Jan-Dec 1945 AD as "year 0 - the year the Bomb
first went off" with the next year (the first post-WWII and
post-atomic year) as year 1 PA - with the BAs being considered as
working up to culminate in the invention of nukes.
--Wolfie
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... Sesame Street Wicca has been brought to you by Blessed B.
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
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|From: Sue Armstrong
|To: Doug Lee
|Sub: Normalities
|Date: 02 Apr 97 04:57:01
EID:11dc 22822720
PID: BWQBBS 2.90e Beta [Reg]
MSGID: 1:246/15.0 33445bc2
TID: GE 1.11+
Making a good die roll, Doug Lee cast Normalities at Sue Armstrong .. and
all hell broke loose.
SA> urgh. I'm not sure what a Barabbri is, but it sounds wonderfully
SA> nasty.
DL> From the Mage 2Ed Sourcebook. Pg.11
DL> Barabbi: A mage who renonces her former loyalties to follow the dark
DL> Path of the Nephandi (remember *those* guys?)
Ah, yes, that fun group.
DL> I should get on the Werewolf-l list.
SA> Oh, do! Though the big question on there right now is how the laws
SA> of physics might affect someone using Speed Beyond Thought -
DL> Well...Maybe not. My mailbox keeps filling up with 20-30 msgs a day
DL> from just the MAGE-L list.
Heh. That's about as many as we get - sometimes a little more,
sometimes less, depending. Say, do you have Phil Brucato on over
there?
DL> "Yes, now be still. Where was I?....Oh yes. Now between this reality
DL> and the penumbra exists yet another realm. Tho' it's properties are
DL> unique. One cannot actually exist in this realm, but only though
DL> enterance and exit. Much like like walking through a doorway. With one
DL> step you move from one part of a dwelling to another. And doing so
DL> requires a length of time. Same is true for this tertiary realm. The
DL> Garou, and some Masters of the Sphere of Correspondence I might add,
DL> can use this realm to travel from one point in space to another.
DL> However, the relationship of time to this realm is not a constant. The
DL> perceived passage of time in this realm is much quicker than in
DL> reality. An entity might only perceive that 1 sec had passed only to
DL> discover that upon exiting this tertiary realm that hours had passed.
DL> There now. Does that clear things up for you?" the professer asked.
DL> "Umm...not rea..."
DL> "Fine, fine M' boy" he stated as he patted his young charge on the
DL> head. "Glad to be of help. Now don't forget to review chapters 24-26
DL> for thursdays exam on krlilian photography and it's relationship to
DL> quantum anomilies". He interupted as he picked up the theisis in his
DL> lap.
Heheheh. Silly mage. It might describe things a little differently
in the M:tA book, but the Umbra section in W:tA describes the
Penumbra as having time set, pretty much like it is on Earth. The
Near (Middle) Umbra, on the other hand ...
Of course, the stupid rules are really contradictory (well, not
really contradictory, but they do leave things fuzzy) about
travelling along moon paths and the like. Concievably, you could
follow one into the NU, travel along it to the other side of the
world and come out of the Penumbra there anywhere from a second to,
oh, decades later or longer. Yet the older books try to force one
to think that the only way you could do transoceanic umbral travel
is via caern-to-caern moon bridge. Well, at least the Nuwisha book
clears that up a bit; it says specifically that 1) they spend most
of their time in the Umbra and 2) this allowed them to go all over
the place, even before Columbus. Of course, it begs the question -
why, then, were Eurasian Garou supposed to be so surprised when they
found Garou in North America and Australia? If they wanted to go
beat up on the Bunyip, they could've done it any time they wanted to
.. making the Second War of Rage rather moot. Either way, they
broke the Litany whether they went by ship or moon path.
--Wolfie
"I howled with the wolf shades and laughed with men,
And insight into all hearts began.
The noble wolf I saw driven forth
Before the hunters to the north.
Adam's children improves his tools and weaves
Cities of wonder while the Garou grieves.
The open spaces conquered, the death of herds,
The truths then the philosopher's game of words.
The arcane secrets were hidden, and the spells
Become passwords for mages in secret guilds.
The Faerie Folk retreat to their dreaming home.
In man's city, the vampire laughs alone."
-"Klaital's Journey"
_Who's Who Among Werewolves: Garou Saga_
... Why use lab animals when there's virus writers?
--- GEcho 1.11+
* Origin: [Windsor Download BBS] USR/V.Everything (519)-973-9330 (1:246/15)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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SEEN-BY: 147/2021 167/166 170/400 202/777 1207 213/213 218/890 907 270/101
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SEEN-BY: 322/739 323/107 324/278 343/600 346/250 352/3 356/18 371/42 377/86
SEEN-BY: 380/64 381/900 382/92 388/1 396/1 2 690/660 730/2 732/10 2401/0
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Educational Experienc
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:23:44
EID:ce12 2283b2e0
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 7c97f2f7
MSGID: 1:229/622 33442e49
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
JB>> It's already been built, Katherine. Didn't you know that. It even
JB>> extends a few miles beyond the top of the mountain.
KW> Do they have a McDonalds up there yet?
Golden Arks! Over 1 Billion Sold!
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: ...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:52:54
EID:dd80 2283b680
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A34D
MSGID: 1:229/622 334435b3
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
>> The fact that such is how every other pregnancy in the world occurs.
KY> Wait, just because something happened a certain way every other time,
KY> is evidence that it couldn't happen any other way?
I think you're on the right track. Tomorrow the sun might rise
in the West. Just because it has never before been observed to
do so does not guarantee that it won't. But the EVIDENCE is that
there is a consistent pattern that allows us to predict (not know)
over which horizon we may expect to see sunrise.
No sane person would expect the earth to reverse its rotation
or expect a virgin birth.
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 03 Apr 97 23:13:12
EID:0e18 2283b9a0
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e970818
MSGID: 1:229/622 334439f3
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10440
About a message of George Harper to All:
GH> Wednesday Apr 2
Shutting down your brain and turning on the spam already? Yours
is one of the fastest fundy disintegrations I've yet seen. Or are
you just doing penance for your lies?
--- FleetStreet 1.18+
* Origin: Aurora Exploratoria, Newcastle, ON, Canada (1:229/622)
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: worship of torture
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:17:03
EID:b833 22835a20
MSGID: 1:3603/210 55de5411
TID: GE/2 1.2
RC> Why would you *worship* such a heinous torturer anyway?
RC> Because your grandfather did?
JS> No, because God put it into my heart to do so.
At least you admit that you worship a heinous torturer.
People who willingly bow to worship torturers are responsible
for making our world a more dangerous place by encouraging,
through example, emptyheaded obedience to cruelty.
JS> Happy now? Good enough show for you? When does the
JS> applause start?
You want applause for your acceptance of TORTURE? You are sick.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
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|From: ROBERT CURRY
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: welcome back
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:17:04
EID:b8e6 22835a20
MSGID: 1:3603/210 55de5412
TID: GE/2 1.2
This has been waiting for you:
RC> Provided you don't fuck indiscriminantly, share needles,
RC> or perform other high-risk behaviors, you will find that
RC> for a "contagious" disease, there is virtually zero chance
RC> of contracting it.
RH> Ah, but Robert, the cocksuckers are doing just that. Some
RH> of them even brag about it.
Actually, Roger, oral sex is considerably safer (with respect to
contracting the HIV virus) for the women and men who engage in it
than is unprotected vaginal or anal sex, so you are mistaken.
Now, if you meant to use the term "cocksuckers" as some sort of
pejorative reference to gay men, then I can only laugh at the
absurdity of ignoring the denotation in favor of mere connotation.
BTW, how exactly do you think *you* are going to contract HIV?
RH> No hysteria involved in isolating carriers of fatal diseases.
It most certainly is hysteria when you have virtually no chance
whatsoever of contracting it unless you fuck an infected woman
or man without using a condom, or you share a needle with an
infected person, or -- well, you get the picture. There is hardly
any reason for you to want to gather up all HIV-infected persons
to haul them away into concentration camps.
Others have also posted good explanations for why such an insanely
naive proposed "solution" would not only be dangerous to our society
with respect to general civil liberties, but in also why it would
not even effectively work to eliminate the disease, anyway.
RH> The facts are not in dispute, we are arguing about methods
RH> of prevention.
Indeed. You favor concentration camps for no good reason, and I
favor sensible personal precautions and greater public education.
A clear choice.
RH>>> Why shouldn't we punish anyone who knowingly passes
RH>>> on a fatal illness?
DR>> Who said such a person should not be punished?
RH>> You did. It was one of the things you were objecting to;
RH>> criminal penalties for concealing one's illness.
RC> So by your (ahem) reasoning, a person who conceals a gun is
RC> knowingly shooting people with it.
RH> Don't be obtuse, Curry. The purpose in concealing AIDS is
RH> so you can continue having sex, which is the transmission mode.
Let's see. You don't know any gays (or so you've stated in other
of your posts here), but somehow you DO know that evil intent to
infect others via sex is the reason that gays (or anyone, for that
matter) dare to keep their medical records private?
Don't be such a dense jackass.
RC> Come again?
RH> That's what they want to do!
And you seriously cannot even imagine how responsible adults can
find safe means of sexual gratification? Are you simply inexperienced
and ignorant, or have you grown so old and addle-brained that you've
completely forgotten the possibilities?
RC> I think you missed a cylinder on this one.
RH> Not at all.
"IS NOT!" is the more traditional denial by people who don't care
to investigate the facts due to their opinions being set in concrete.
I had thought better of you.
* SLMR 2.1a * [ curry@gte.net ][ http://home1.gte.net/curry ]
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Jim Staal
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:09:47
EID:2dc8 22844937
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a21
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 163d2d8b
PID: FM 2.02
Dave, I never attended public schools.
- Jim Staal
It looks as though he has a valid reason for being a fundy, homophobic,
anti-woman bigot after all.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to
particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart from God
even further than do pagan men. - (Jim Staal, Promise Keeper)
---
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|From: Speaker to Fundies
|To: George Harper
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:12:33
EID:4e6a 22844990
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a22
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 163d2d8e
PID: FM 2.02
gH> between legs and feet DOES have basis of possibility. One
gh> interpretaion is as valid as another. God is NOT contradicting
gh> Himself, he's just saying "figure it out for yourself, stupid!"
gh> *I* choose to accept the math <4 feet plus 2 jumping legs equals
gh> six pedal appendages> which puts the entire passage into a
gh> viable perspective.
While you're penciling in what your deity constructs "forgot" to mention,
I suggest you go outside and try to find yourself a grass hopper to look
at and observe closely.
The ignorant sheep-herders who wrote your mythologies got it wrong, George.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Hmm. I talked with a man Tuesday night who was dead a week before.
He's one of my clients.... And I did talk to him in ICU at Baptist
Hospital East. - Trent Hall
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Constitutional Amendment for occultism in the public schools
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:21:11
EID:41b9 22844aa5
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a23
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 163d2d8f
PID: FM 2.02
SS> Rep. Istook (R, Oklahoma) has authored the following proposed
SS> amendment to the US Constitution:
ks> I ashamedly admit to being in this moron's state. Between him and
ks> Coburn, I am certain that intelligent people from other venues are
ks> convinced we are all goofy.
Thank the gods you're not from Alabama!
SS> Note that he assumes that the word "God" means the precisely same
SS> thing to everyone. If ever there was an amendment that, if passed,
SS> would spend years in court it is this one.
ks> I personally think it would be hilarious if it were to
ks> pass, and watch the fundy bastards fume and slobber when
ks> some Santerian kid starts biting the heads off chickens...
ks> or whatever weird things they do with fowl...
It's actually a fairly humane ritual, as I understand it. No worse than
eating a meat-filled sandwich, in any event.
What would be a more visible and widely-spread exhibition nationally would
be Wicca, Pagani and Muslim nonsense. Wiccan spokespeople have already
indicated that they're poised and ready with mass mail-outs should such
a thing happen, alerting every Wiccan, Pagan, and New Age nut they know
a variety of rituals they could select from to perform in the public schools.
Muslims would need to secret themselves five times a day.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ You are so full of religion that your eyes are brown. - Fredric Rice
---
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|From: Drew Barrymore
|To: George Harper
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:23:49
EID:5228 22844af8
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a24
REPLY: 1:170/551.0 163d2d95
PID: FM 2.02
GH> Poor Karl...he has a fixation on Assholes...but why pity him...it
GH> IS his choice, after all. Sniffed any good ones lately, Karl???
After reading the above, it is certain you're a Christian.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ As long as there are exams, there will be prayer in schools!
- William Putnam
Studying for exams out performs prayers by 100%. - George Rudzinski
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:26:08
EID:1de5 22844b44
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a25
REPLY: 1:3652/1 334363A1
PID: FM 2.02
KY> Someone had to die for the peoples' sins.
Mithras did so some 380 years before your mythos did. And Lord Krishna
also died "for people's sins" long before your mythologies was concocted.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ For a non-american, you seem to think you have some authority.
- Marguerite Kendall
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Staal wants to violate rights
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:37:52
EID:1cd7 22844cba
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a26
REPLY: 1:3652/1 334363A2
PID: FM 2.02
Jim Staal
Rod Swift
RS> What legislation would you enact?
JS> Ban 'gay pride' parades. I find them to be discriminating
JS> and a source of social unrest and upheaval.
I don't doubt for a second that Staal also wanted to ban "the nigras" from
marching for equal rights under the law as well. Setting that aside, however,
I have yet to hear of anyone being excluded from a gay-rights march or rally.
I've attended and participated in a few and no one tried to stop me.
Has this forum ever had a worse bigot than Staal?
The church parking lot where I park every morning contains a church where
every member is Mexican. I stopped in one Sunday before work and was asked
to leave for "being disruptive." Though I was sitting quietly in the back
row, everyone else was whispering about me and turning around to stare.
Though it was an Ass of God brand of the death cult this mode of bigotry
is pandemic to nearly all particular Christianic churches. Very few Christanic
churches contain within them a mix of exhibited pheotypes among the membership.
On the days I work on Sunday I drive by many Christanic churches -- they're
all segregated into black, white and Asian, and Mexican.
And yet in this very forum we have had death cultists demand that Christianity
has been the single most effective unifying force on Earth and that Christianity
has done the most for advancing human rights.
Do rational people ever believe it?
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ From beginning to end, there's one unfolding story of God's
plan of salivation for mankind. - Marguerite Kendall
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Popper & Metaphysics.
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:40:54
EID:2805 22844d1b
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a27
REPLY: 1:123/67 3342d10a
PID: FM 2.02
Laurie Appleton
John Brawley
JB>> Don't "hi" me, Appleton. You and your disgusting
JB>> anti-educational sophist fanatic religious behaviour are not
JB>> welcome to me, nor do I grant you the informal prerogative.
Wow! You tell 'em, John!
As an aside, I do honestly think that Appletoon _does_ understand evolution
and that evolution is an observed phenomena. I think he knows this yet
can't acknowledge it least he blasphemy his gods. And it's a shame that
he believes scientific progress negates his gods or the _need_ for some
people to have them. I opine science doesn't detract from either.
The only remaining question is whether he thinks he's fooled his gods into
thinking he really believes his own ignorant shit.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ You want this to scare me, show me that your God exists. - Sean McCullough
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: Popper & Metaphysics.
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:50:20
EID:6782 22844e4a
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a29
REPLY: 1:123/67 3342d10a
PID: FM 2.02
Laurie Appleton
John Brawley
JB>> Don't "hi" me, Appleton. You and your disgusting
JB>> anti-educational sophist fanatic religious behaviour are not
JB>> welcome to me, nor do I grant you the informal prerogative.
LA> That is clear enough and outrageous enough for you to be
LA> TWITTED until such time as you are prepared to make an
LA> appropriate "recantation".
ss> Stick your head further up your imaginary god's ass,
ss> Laurie. For once, Bait Boy was right on the money.
Bait Boy's response was certainly a refreshing change, man.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Ok, name on person that has witnessed a Monkey turn into a man.
- Chris Vetter
---
* Origin: The government is a liar. Free the aliens! (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Portals Of Prayer Apr 2
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:53:48
EID:8798 22844eb8
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a2a
REPLY: 1:104/447 2e970818
PID: FM 2.02
> Wednesday Apr 2
> CLOSE TO HIM
> IN THE SAME WAY, COUNT YOURSELVES DEAD TO SIN BUT ALIVE TO GOD IN
> CHRIST JESUS Romans 6:11
Posting occult mythology only serves to provide further evidence that you're
incapable of thinking for yourself, dear. Posting mythology which is contradictory
and scientifically bogus is also quite telling.
Have any evidence for these gods of yours? Have any evidence for this fictional
disease you call "sin?" Any at all?
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Take away the intimidation of children--sexual, mental and
emotional--and watch church membership drop. - Don Martin
---
* Origin: The government is a liar. Free the aliens! (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Steve Quarrella
|Sub: UFO Cult
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:57:32
EID:03df 22844f30
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a2b
REPLY: 1:124/9005 334365bd
PID: FM 2.02
RS> Well, folks, it was inevitable.
sq> As the magic number "2000" approaches, I expect that we're going
sq> to see more and more of this. So long as the participants are
sq> grown adults only, hey, clean up the gene pool.
I'll even volunteer my time on by body bagging detail.
Interesting that so few Christians have the guts to actually act on their
supposed beliefs like these people did. The Heaven's Gate members should
be praised for actually believing what they claim to believe.
RS> propane until dead. He left a note saying that he wanted to
RS> go with the Heaven's Gate crowd on the comet.
sq> I only wish that I could get some of these loons to sign over
sq> their belongings to me before they join up with the goof troops.
The State mistakenly considers suicides to be of unsound mind and anything
they write concerning their properties would be hotly contested.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Is it true that 25% of your gender is gay? - George Boyles
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: J.J. Hitt
|Sub: Repent NOW!
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:59:38
EID:84cc 22844f73
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a2d
REPLY: 1:106/9788.2 77de7d6b
PID: FM 2.02
J.C. Kibler
Notice that his postings were April Fools jokes and that the name he picked
to use is "Jesus Christ Kibler" -- close to the Kebler Elf cookies.
JK> TAKE THAT, YOU GODLES HEATHERN SCUM! CRIST WILL HAVE YOUO
JK> ALL ON A BARBEQUET SPIT IN HELL FOR BLASFEMY!
jjh> CRIST? Isn't that the name of a toothpaste?
jjh> You really shouldn't misspell Jesus's name
jjh> like that... ... it really pisses him off.
And we all know what happens when the Christian gods get pissed -- thousands
of millions of innocent people get stomped.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ An argument for limited omniscience could be made. - Dan Lafferty
---
* Origin: No Special Rights for Christians! (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:05:17
EID:1dc0 228450a8
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a2e
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 9a885abd
PID: FM 2.02
GH> I challenge you to select one spokesman, and
gh> have him post a topic to discuss...
FR>
rc> You challenge who, exactly? Are you under some delusion
rc> that there is a central committee that rules this place?
FR> There is! Have you forgotten the HolySmoke Central Committee?
kw> They only handle conspiracies.
That's what you're _supposed_ to think!
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ When do you receive your Nobel Prize? - Marilyn Burge
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: another for the FAQ
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:05:57
EID:5de2 228450bc
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a2f
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 0e162d19
PID: FM 2.02
KY> Will there come a time when "my work will be done," here?
KY> Perhaps, but that will only occur when this echo has completely
KY> changed.
rc> LOL! This one needs to be properly archived.
FR> I've got it! Loving it. "I want it stopped."
KY> Just wait. In a year, you will likely
ky> be the one running out of here.
FR> How many times have fundies made _that_ claim?
kw> How many fundies have wandered in here?
Only one. Er, at least it sure sounds like there's only one.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Why don't you just swim out 'til you find him??? - David Worrell
---
* Origin: The government is a liar. Free the aliens! (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Mormon lies
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:16:16
EID:c8d0 22845208
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a30
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 8e514b75
PID: FM 2.02
FR> How many young women are tormented in their secret
FR> places by the crying of a child? So torn in fact that
FR> they some-times even hallucinate that it is THEIR
FR> murdered child crying out for retribution. - George Harper
FR> Do these lunatics actually get told
fr> this nonsense in their cult houses?!
kw> They aren't bright enough to come up with it on their own.
This particular lie reminds me of the Mormon masters (bishops) telling the
sheep about how all non-Mormons are "in misery" because they haven't "found
the restored church yet." Not to mention how non-Mormons are "searching
in misery for the LDS."
I have no doubt Mormons swallow these lies without question.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ What's wrong with Fundies? - Bruce Kazee
Not a thing. Unlike clay pigeons, they are capable of making
amusing howls whilst being shot down. HolySmoke would not be a
better place without them any more than a shooting gallery would be
improved by removing all the little tin ducks. -- Don Martin
---
* Origin: The government is a liar. Free the aliens! (1:218/890)
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|From: Rich Allen
|To: George Harper
|Sub: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:36:07
EID:8976 22845483
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a31
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org ea7b71cc
PID: FM 2.02
GH> <> from some of the personal messages included in this
gh> last packet from people like Marty Leipzig and Rick MacFarlane,
gh> I have "come a cropper" in more than one case in my short
gh> tenure here...maybe I'd better heed the advice (of course I
gh> WON'T) to stop making an ass of myself...If I did that,
GH> I might lose their attention, and not be able to sneak in a
gh> little something extra under their noses without them seeing
gh> it in time...
Don't kid yourself, George. We've seen your type flow through here as often
as the tides, every one of them crowing as you do and yet utterly incapable
of presenting a reasoned argument for your lack of evidence to substanciate
your occult claims.
Every Christanic death cultist lacks evidence for his or her gods and thus
they attempt to defend an already lost and undefendable position. They
quote the classical Christanic mythologies yet, as we've all seen, they
ignore the contradictions and scientific errors by trying to pencil-in "corrections"
their gods "forgot" to mention.
You're nothing new or special, George. You're just one of the faceless
fundy no-thinkers which pass through. Like all the others you'll be forgotten
after a few weeks of further laughter.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Personally, I vote that there be fines and arrests for consenting
adults if they are not married--heterosexual or otherwise. - Mark Fox
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: 7-The List
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:44:34
EID:ca6b 22845591
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a32
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 4065123c
PID: FM 2.02
> *Fred Rice, CA? Wild, dangerous ???
> aka Damocles atheist
> http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
My doctors told me I was cured! Honest!
A rabid skeptic and rabid atheist both.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ But NOTHING beats the taste of vanilla communion-wafers, baked by Nabisco!
- Steve Rose
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:46:07
EID:4b25 228455c3
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a33
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2f800550
PID: FM 2.02
KY> WHy do you think the Bible is the most popular book in the world?
It isn't. The Buddah's writings are. T.V. Guide also is more popular than
the Christanic death cult mytologies -- which is probably why your death
cult still exists, ironically enough.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ The milieu here is like a gang rape by a bunch of maladjusted
teenaged boys whose hormones have gone mad. - Jesse C. Jones (Heathens)
---
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|From: Rich Allen
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 04 Apr 97 11:59:50
EID:991a 22845f79
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a34
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2f800550
PID: FM 2.02
KY> WHy is it that Christianity is the most
ky> popular religious belief system in the world?
It isn't dear. Reincarnationists is the largest-held religious belief in
the world. The Christanic death cult is a small minority.
But you won't admit that because your masters have programmed you otherwise.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a Biblical lobotomy.
- David Rice
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:03:34
EID:bf60 22846071
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a35
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 2c6c3306
PID: FM 2.02
KY> Someone had to die for the peoples' sins.
Lord Krishna already did it before the "Jesus." And Mithra also did same.
There is debate about when Mithraism became popular, of course, yet there
have been dozens of gods and demigods which "died" to "save" people somehow.
kw> Why?
The weak need a martyr to emulate.
KY> It was all to give people the oppurtunity
ky> to come to Christ and be saved.
"Saved." From a fictional disease the very same demigod created.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Claiming to be "exhorted" on how to treat women and children based
upon the Bible is like being "exhorted" on how to treat Jews based
upon Mein Kampf. - David Rice
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: Arrogance
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:07:13
EID:25cf 228460e6
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a36
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f7446586
PID: FM 2.02
Doug Schwandt
DS> Think about it... Burning in hell for all eternity, feeling every
DS> searing flame as they lick all around you, yet never consume you...
DS> Being able to see what you could have had, and knowing what you ended
DS> up with, just because of PRIDE...It's not worth it. Ask Christ into
DS> your life today and put your intellect to work for Him.
It's always disheartening to observe people create deity constructs just
as cruel and inhumane as they are. This deity construct you've built is
the evil mirror of your own pain, Doug, and your own hatreds. You wish
to punish your intellectual and moral superiors so you construct a deity
which lacks those attributes so you may emulate it and try your best to
be like it.
In contrast there are life-affirming religions which lack the death gods
you've created or bought from your masters. Wicca and Pagani are good examples
of this. Your need to fall into evil indicates something very real about
yourself.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a
revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales,
legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation
that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:218/890)
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|From: Rich Allen
|To: Geroge Harper
|Sub: Your ranting bluster
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:13:11
EID:3672 228461a5
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a38
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org f407d233
PID: FM 2.02
SS> If _you_ claim that hell exists, then you get
ss> to provide the evidence. Do you have any?
GH> Removing "kid" gloves:
GH> You stupid, asinine blowhard! Why don't you stop frothing
gh> at the mouth, and read what you are writing? You contradict
gh> yourself twice in three sentences, yet dare to intimate that
gh> *I* am the ignorant one? Buzz off butthead.
My. Such bluster to try to avoid the embarrassing question.
If you had evidence for your outrageous claims you would have presented
it,
George, not shit your own spleen and show us all why fundies are incapable
of thinking.
Learn from your discomfort, George.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Faith fills the fundy head...where facts and knowledge fear to tread.
- Steve Rose
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:218/890)
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|From: Drew Barrymore
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Scientific Proof Still Missing
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:22:46
EID:390e 228462d7
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a39
REPLY: 1:104/447 2f067e10
PID: FM 2.02
> In a couple of recent posts I stated the discovery - over 20 years ago
-
> of
> an "anomaly" in the general flow of time, as mathematically measured by
> the
> ephemeral data collection computers at one of the labs charged with
> developing
> guidance systems for "space" vehicles.
That claim was debunked 20 years ago, George. I covered that already just
last week. The Deep Space Network which is responsible for tracking all
spacecraft and orbital devices swapped over to GST and less than a week
later fundie cultists started pretending scientists "corrected time" because
of a pretend "missing day" nonsense.
The debunking has been covered in a great many science journals by people
who laugh at Creationist death cultists. Even Scientific American bothered
to waste page space.
Would you like a reference, you idiot? Or are you totally happy to ignore
the truth as usual and try to pretend everyone doesn't know you're an idiot?
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ Yes we do debunk your biblical stories because they ARE debunk able.
- Tim Bennett
---
* Origin: Mass starvation: What a beautiful choice. (1:218/890)
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:27:33
EID:e65e 22846370
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a3a
PID: FM 2.02
George Harper
GH> possibility. One interpretaion is as valid as another. God is NOT
GH> contradicting Himself, he's just saying "figure it out for yourself,
GH> stupid!" *I* choose to accept the math <4 feet plus 2 jumping legs
It's amazing what these people are willing to pencil into their mythologies
to "correct" what their gods "forgot" to mention. They'll advance any lie
to try to keep from admitting their mythologies were never intended to be
accurate.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ I didn't edit the message.... I simply substituted asterisks
for a profanity. - Jim Cowan
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:30:33
EID:71d4 228463d0
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a3b
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3342e04d
PID: FM 2.02
KY> Some of the American founding fathers were Deists, but not the
KY> majority.
Most of the founders of the United States and the Framers of the Constitution
were Deists, dear. The "born against" Christanics fled the signing of the
Constitution because their desire to include the Christanic death cult gods
by name in the document were repeatedly voted down.
Learn the origins of your country, idiot.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ They are really pro-murder forces that supports the murder of babies
against the will of the mother, before and after birth. - Raoul Newton
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: The Illuminati strikes again!
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:31:59
EID:f0fe 228463fd
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a3c
REPLY: 1:123/67.5 3342e04d
PID: FM 2.02
KY> Although, some like Washignton, did warn about the Illuminati
KY> infiltating them.
Are your masters _really_ telling you people the so-called
"Illuminati" actually exist!?
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ My self I would hump a camel before a Jewish female. - Jim Lammon
As if either would have you. -- Robert Curry
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Jammal Hoaxes the ICR Hoaxers
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:41:22
EID:6ce9 2284652b
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f091a3d
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedb
PID: FM 2.02
Doug Schwandt
Judith Bandsma
KW> The ark was built out of rail road ties!!!
JB> And microwaved in soy sauce.
DS> Ah, yes! Those world-famous soy sauce soaked splinters brought
DS> to us by those who sought to publicly discredit ICR.
dm> And who succeeded splendidly, owing to the ICR's oerweening
dm> arrogance, gullibility, and utter lack of scientific acumen.
dm> When one sets out to discredit something, it is always a help
dm> to pick a target that actively participates in the process.
And I'm still, um, "tickled pink?" about it all! Jammal did America a grand
service almost single-handedly. He only sought informational assistance
from a few notables before contriving the method of Sun Pictures and CBS's
damnnation.
I do hope he's still active and will get another Big Win. (tm)
DS> Brought to you by Mr. Asholian, the man with the soy sauce
DS> soaked samples.
dm> George Jamal was, I believe, the one who faked the "Ark"
dm> samples, fobbed them off to Sun Productions, and later gave a
dm> detailed account of the whole process.
Jammal was threatened with litigation if he went to the media and exposed
Sun's hoax to the world. Jammal wasn't in the least bit intimidated.
dm> According to his account, the producers were so eager to
dm> believe his "evidence" that not only did they _not_ send
dm> it out for verification by an independent lab, they did
dm> _not_ even ask him any questions about his story as probing
dm> as those a parent might ask an adolescent about the events
dm> of the latter's first date.
And yet Sun Pictures claimed the piece of wood was subjected to "scientific
investigations" and was proven to be "authentic." They also claimed they
had investigated Jammal and learned that he it was an undeniable fact that
Jammal had actually visited Mt. Ararat when in fact Jammal had never even
been close to the mountain range.
http://www.linkline.com/personal/frice/index.htm
frice@linkline.com <
~*~ A year long global flood? Sure...Why is there no evidence then? - ML
Umm... "the evidence was destroyed in the flood." - Styx Allum
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: Green Pastures Issue 018
|Date: 04 Apr 97 21:48:39
EID:2f54 2284ae13
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f15c8e1
PID: FM 2.02
Here is Green Pastures issue 018. This is a bit special since the author
of the Institute for Creation Research's "Impact" article asked me specifically
to review and "respond" to his article. After he received my write-up with
the request that he provide a final word, he elected not to address a single
thing in the write-up he requested of me.
He's a Creationist so the behavior was expected.
Please pick-up, collect, and disseminate this debunking six-part as widely
as possible. Any place where Creationism gets debunked should have a copy.
Any place where the truth about Christopher Columbus needs to be expressed
should have a copy. Every High School student who performs an Internet
search on Christopher Columbus for his or her history class should find
a copy of this.
Help get the word out about Columbus while at the same time showing as many
people as possible the lunacy of Creationists and their willful lack of
science and history education.
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: GP018.ASC - 1 of 6
|Date: 04 Apr 97 21:48:56
EID:18d9 2284ae1c
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f15c8e2
PID: FM 2.02
Green Pastures 018 - GP018.TXT
13/Mar/1997
In this issue 018:
"God is my copilot. But as a navigator he sucks."
Christopher Columbus still has his many spin-doctors and, as
the truth about Columbus becomes accepted and the myths and
legends are slowly dispensed with, I prophecy we shall start
seeing vocal denials of Columbus' Christianity. Like the
hundreds of thousands of Crusaders and "Pro-lifers" before
him, Columbus is destined to join the ranks of the "Not TRUE
Christian."
In the next issue 019:
"History revisionism Christian style: Denying Adolf Hitler."
What are the words of Adolf Hitler in regards his religious
beliefs? What are the explanations of fellow religionists in
response to Hitler's religion?
Green Pastures takes a look at the phenomena of the history
revisionism which deny Adolf Hitler's religion and explores
the explanations offered by fellow religionists for his agenda
of genocide. Commentary solicited from a broad spectrum of
religionists include the denial that Christian hate groups
across the world are in any way Christian organizations.
God is my copilot. But as a navigator he sucks.
"Slight of hand and twist of fate" - U2
Normally we guys and gals don't bother expending the time to
correct the "mistakes" we find in Creationist publications mainly
because Creationist literature doesn't contain anything new which
hasn't been debunked both soundly and routinely over the past ten
decades or so. Few of us feel the need to debunk comic books --
or those who mistakenly believe in them.
Aside from the humor content Creationist literature provides, few
of us have either the time or desire to review even summations of
such nonsense. For those of us in the computer networks, we see the
sad results of such strange religious beliefs in the illiterate and
unscientific postings of our poor fellow Creationist netizens;
Creationists who can't even acknowledge Tectonic Plate displacement,
Continental Uplift, simple biology, or the age of the Solar System
for fear of violating their religious beliefs and blaspheming their
gods.
We know what religion can and does do to otherwise rational,
thinking human beings. We don't waste our time.
Sit back in your chair and imagine my delight when I was asked to
review a specific Creationist devotional, published in the Institute
for Creation Research's "Impact" publication, and to offer comment
upon it -- from none other than the author himself! It's quite an
honor, I assure you. I'm giddy with anticipation, in fact.
This issue of Green Pastures contains a copy of the original "Impact"
article, replicated fully intact and unmodified. While you read it
you'll be tempted to shake your head and skip forward -- yet give it
a chance, okay? Mr. Humber's efforts are serious and he deserves to
have us "infidel sinners" listen with an open mind.
After it's done I'll pick up again and provide a lengthy and detailed
coverage of the many errors and omissions. I'll then provide some of
the references I used to collect the information used. When I'm
done, I'll give the floor back to Mr. Humber for the final word.
"Try to hold on, trying to hold on; Keep the faith" - Bon Jovi
Institute for Creation Research,
PO Box 2667, El Cajon, CA. 92021
Voice: (619) 448-0900
FAX: (619) 448-3469
Number 220, 1991 (File IMP-220A.ARJ at The Skeptic Tank)
Columbus and His Creator
by Paul G. Humber *
Copyright (c) 1991 by I.C.R.
All Rights Reserved
* Mr. Humbar, A.B., M.S., B.D., is a schoolmaster at
The Haverford School, Haverford, Pennsylvania.
__________________________________
Some years ago, the _Philadelphia Daily News_ published a
cartoon characterizing Christians who hold to the fundamentals
of the Bible as out of touch with reality. As an educator, I
found it particularly offensive. Sammy, standing on the Bible
in a classroom with his back to the others, was looking at a
flat "globe" of the earth. The other students and teacher, with
quizzical looks on their faces, encompassed a normal (i.e. round)
globe. The teacher, presumably responding to a student's
question, is depicted as saying, "Because Sammy's mom is a
fundamentalist, that's why." [1] The intent seems to be to
ridicule Bible-believing Christians and their view of science.
Apparently neither the cartoonist nor the editors realized that
Christopher Columbus, a round-earth activist of the highest
degree, was driven far more by the Bible than by the science of
his day. A dedicated student of the Scriptures, he put his faith
into action.
COLUMBUS' OWN WORDS:
At last, after almost 500 years, _Libro de las profecias_
(Book of Prophecies), written and compiled by Columbus, may be
seriously considered in English! In her _Christopher Columbus --
His life and discovery in the light of his prophecies_,[2] Kay
Brigham has provided translations of major portions and analysis
of his book. She describes it as "a compilation of passages from
the Bible which the Admiral believed were pertinent to his mission
of discovery, selected by Columbus himself with the help of his
friend, Fray Gaspar de Gorricio."[2] Excerpting from folios
4-6 (using her book as source), I quote Columbus, who in turn
was addressing his Spanish sovereigns:
"At this time I have seen and put in study to look into all the
Scriptures, cosmography, histories, chronicles and philosophy and
other arts, which our Lord opened to my understanding (I could
sense His hand upon me), so that it became clear to me that it
was feasible to navigate from here to the Indies; and He unlocked
within me the determination to execute the idea. And I came to
your Highnesses with this ardor. All those who heard about my
enterprise rejected it with laughter, scoffing at me. Neither
the sciences which I mentioned above, nor the authoritative
citations from them, were of any avail. In only your Highnesses
remained faith and constancy. Who doubts that this illumination
was from the Holy Spirit? I attest that He (the Spirit), with
marvelous rays of light, consoled me through the holy and sacred
Scriptures ... encouraging me to proceed, and, continually,
without ceasing for a moment, they inflame me with a sense of
great urgency....
I am the worst of sinners. The pity and mercy of our Lord have
completely covered me whenever I have called (on Him) for them.
I have found the sweetest consolation in casting away all my
anxiety, so as to contemplate His marvelous presence.
I have already said that for the execution of the enterprise of
the Indies, neither reason, nor mathematics, nor world maps were
profitable to me; rather the prophecy of Isaiah was completely
fulfilled ....
Your Highnesses, remember the Gospel texts and the many promises
which our Savior made to us, and how all this has been put to a
test: (for example) St. Peter, when he leapt into the sea, walked
upon (the water) as long as his faith remained firm. The
mountains will obey anyone who has faith the size of a kernel of
Indian corn. All that is requested by anyone who has faith will
be granted. Knock and it will be opened to you. No one should
be afraid to take on any enterprise in the name of our Savior, if
it is right and if the purpose is purely for His holy service
.... The working out of all things was entrusted by our Lord to
each person, (but it happens) in conformity with His sovereign
will, even though he gives advice to many. He lacks nothing that
it may be in the power of men to give him. O, how good is the
Lord who wishes people to perform that for which he holds himself
responsible! Day and night, and at every moment, everyone should
give Him their most devoted thanks."[2]
Noted author, Simon Wiesenthal, in his _Sails of Hope_,
confirmed earlier what is now clear from Columbus' own writings:
"That religious elements played a great part in Columbus's
thoughts and actions is evident from all his writings. It may
come as something of a surprise to us that his concept of sailing
west to reach the Indies was less the result of geographical
theories than of his faith in certain Biblical texts --
specifically the Book of Isaiah."[3]
COLUMBUS - A SCOUNDREL?
William Loren Katz, though affirming Columbus' "enormous
skills, courage and ambition," added that "Columbus carried in
his heart the burning embers of hate" and repaid the "generosity"
of the natives with "treachery."[4] Others have similar concerns.
Sadly, exploitation of peoples and lands followed in Columbus'
wake, and Columbus himself contributed in part. His own testimony
of being "the worst of sinners" has already been mentioned, but he
also viewed himself as "Servant ... of the Most High Saviour, Christ
the Son of Mary."[5] He trusted apparently in Creator Jesus who
forgives the sins of repentant sinners. Indeed, he named the very
first island he landed on San Salvador out of regard for his "Holy
Savior" (translation).
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: GP018.ASC - 2 of 6
|Date: 04 Apr 97 21:49:06
EID:2bd9 2284ae23
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f15c8e3
PID: FM 2.02
The esteemed Harvard historian, Samuel Eliot Morison, who
dedicated a copy of his Pulitzer Prize-winning book, _Admiral of
the Ocean Sea_ to his "shipmate," Lieutenant Commander Millard J.
Klein, Kay Brigham's father,[2] was more generous in his appraisal
of Admiral Columbus. He wrote, "I cannot forget the eternal faith
that sent this man forth, to the benefit of all future ages."[6]
Columbus sought the conversion of the natives. On the premise that
people are lost without Christ, such a concern could be interpreted
as an expression of genuine love rather than of hate. He prayed on
San Salvador:
"O Lord Almighty and Everlasting God, by Thy holy Word Thou hast
created the heaven, and the earth, and the sea; blessed and
glorified be Thy Name, and praised be Thy Majesty, which hath
deigned to use us, Thy humble servants, that Thy holy Name may be
proclaimed in this second part of the earth."[7]
According to Morison, Columbus and his family were different
from many of the others who wanted "to get gold quick and go home."
Only Columbus, "his family and a few faithful, humble souls" cared
for establishing a 'permanent settlement" and the transfer of
Christianity to the Indies.[6]
Morison was not unaware of some of Columbus' shortcomings, but
he also wrote of his "humanity:"
It was to Columbus' credit that humanity prevailed over glory.
It must have been a temptation to parade this brilliant savage
royalty with their gold and feather ornaments at court. But he
thought of the cold weather in which they would suffer and die,
of what the pretty daughters might expect from his seamen, of the
disillusion that would await these innocent souls in Castile. So
he took compassion on them, declined the cacique's request, and
sent the Indians ashore in the ship's boat after receiving their
homage and fealty.[6]
Kay Brigham's assessment of Columbus is very positive: "On
account of faith -- ``being sure of what we hope for and certain of
what we do not see'' (Hebrews 11:1) -- Columbus discovered America,
the most significant event for the human race after the birth,
death, and resurrection of the Savior of the world. Faith liberated
Columbus from the chains of human myopia, launching him on a divine
mission and propelling him to a providential destination ...
initiating the histories of the United States, Canada, and the
numerous American Republics and the phenomenal expansion of the
Christian faith."[2]
WHAT BIBLE PASSAGES AFFECTED COLUMBUS?
Scriptural passages cited by Columbus in his book, _Libro de
las profecias_ (Book of Prophecies)[2] include the following:
The LORD reigneth, let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of
isles be glad thereof (Psalm 97:1).
Sing unto the LORD a new song, and His praise from the ends of
the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein;
the isles, and the inhabitants thereof (Isaiah 42:10).
Listen, O isles, unto Me; and hearken, ye people from far
(Isaiah 49:1).
My righteousness is near; My salvation is gone forth .... The
isles shall wait upon Me, and on Mine arm shall they trust
(Isaiah 51:5).
I am sought of them that asked not for Me; I am found of them
that sought Me not; I said, Behold Me, behold Me, unto a nation
that was not called by My name (Isaiah 65:1).
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching
them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: And,
lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world (Matthew
28:19,20).
But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon
you; and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in
all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the
earth (Acts 1:8).
CONCLUSION:
"Columbus always loved to apply the Sacred Scriptures to his
own life and adventures,"[6] according to Morison. Wilbur E.
Garret, _National Geographic_ Editor, shares that this was also
true at his death: "Son Ferdinand reports that Columbus repeated
the words attributed to Christ on the Cross -- 'Into your hands,
Father, I commend my soul' - and died."[8]
REFERENCES
1. _Philadelphia Daily News_, October 28, 1986, p. 33.
2. Brigham, Kay. _Christopher Columbus - His life and discovery
in the light of his prophecies_. Terrassa, Barcelona: CLIE
Publishers, 1990, pp. 53, 61, 82, 85, 86, 115, 124, 125, 127,
129, 131, 167.
3. Wiesenthal, Simon. _Sails of Hope_. New York: Macmillan
Publishing Co., Inc., 1973, p. 122.
4. Katz, William Loren. "'Ill Winds' Drove Columbus," _The New
York Times_, October 8, 1979.
5. Morison, Samuel Eliot. "Christopher Columbus, Mariner,"
_American Heritage_, December 1955, p. 93.
6. Morison, Samuel Eliot. _Admiral of the Ocean Sea_. Boston:
Little, Brown and Co., 1942, pp. 6, 206, 476, 494.
7. Marshall, Jr., Peter J. and David B. Manuel, Jr. _The Light
and the Glory_. Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1977,
p. 41.
8. Garrett, Wilbur E. "Columbus and the New World," _National
Geographic_, November 1986, p. 564.
"Now I'm a believer" - The Monkeys
Quite an inspirational piece! I laughed, I cried... It _moved_ me.
Quite obviously Christopher Columbus had God as his copilot _and_
navigator. All of us atheist sinners should be damn thankful that
Columbus was a Bible-believing Christian who discovered America by
the grace of God otherwise we might all still believe the Earth is
flat!
Equally obvious is the totally unwarranted comic depiction by that
horrible "Philadelphia Daily News" which tried to equate contemporary
Creationists with flat-Earth believers! Shame on them!
If any of us are _still_ atheists after reading this, you just
weren't paying attention. Go back and _read_ it this time!
"It's Deja vu all over again" - Yogi Berra
Oh. After reading it the second time I think I see some very minor
mistakes; honest mistakes that anyone stuck on a flat Earth might
make.
"Apparently neither the cartoonist nor the editors realized
that Christopher Columbus, a round-earth activist of the
highest degree, was driven far more by the Bible than by the
science of his day. A dedicated student of the Scriptures,
he put his faith into action." [27a]
- Humber
The Greeks had known the Earth was round for at least 1900 years
before Christopher Columbus set sail to find a "Westward Passage to
India." [1] The Greeks had known the Earth was a sphere and had
been calculating the approximate size of the Earth since at least
the third century. Eratosthenes of Cyrene, Chief librarian of the
famous "Library at Alexandria" in the third century, devised and
used straight sticks and fairly simple geometry to come to some
pretty good estimates on the size of the Earth. [27d]
During the Summer Solstice the Sun reflected off the water at the
bottom of wells in Syene, telling him that the center of the Sun was
directly in line with the center of the Earth from the Syene radian.
By observing the Sun from Alexandria at the same time, he could tell
that the Sun was some 7.2 degrees away from the vertical. That's
1/50'th of a full circle and, with the assumption that rays of light
travel parallel to each other, he multiplied the North/South distance
between Syene and Alexandria by 50 to come to within 15% of the
actual size of the Earth.
The Greek's world wasn't flat. Eratosthenes would have used
different geometry calculations if he had thought the Earth was flat.
Pythagoras and Aristotle before him knew the Earth was a sphere.
Educated people of Europe, Spain, and Portugal all knew that the
Earth wasn't flat.
In actual fact Christopher Columbus _rejected_ the knowledge that the
Earth was a sphere in favor of the belief that the shape was egglike
with curves "Like a woman's breast." He was soundly ridiculed for
that belief. ("Where," Rev. David Rice wondered aloud, "did Columbus
suppose the nipples were?") He was ridiculed because the educated
_knew_ the Earth was round and Columbus religiously believed
otherwise. (My seven-year-old son Stephen reports that he and his
classmates are told that Christopher Columbus believed the world was
"eggplant shaped" -- something a little more "politically correct"
than mentioning women's breasts to giggly school children.)
Columbus also thought that the circumference of the Earth was _much_
smaller than it actually is, even though there had been scientific
evidence as to the Earth's actual circumference for centuries. [2]
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What was the reason for Columbus to deny well over 190 _decades_
of proven scientific knowledge? The scientific knowledge was
"pagan," not "revealed" knowledge and as such must by necessity
be false. (More on this religion-biased belief later.)
Does Mr. Columbus' reasoning sound familiar to anyone? Does his
rejection of scientific facts in favor of religious ignorance
ring any bells? Columbus died never accepting the scientific fact
that the Earth is an oblate spheroid or the scientific fact of the
size of the Earth -- even though he himself evidenced his own beliefs
mistaken! Hundreds of thousands of Creationists go to their graves
in contemporary times not accepting the fact of evolution even
though they themselves directly observe the process. Indeed, the
reason they don't accept evolution is because they have no idea what
evolution is. [23]
Columbus wasn't the first to reject the scientific facts known by
"pagans" for centuries. In the sixth century Christians officially
demanded that the Earth was "flat rectangle" shaped. [28]
Why does Mr. Humber suppose Christopher Columbus was "a round-earth
activist of the highest degree?" Columbus wouldn't accept that the
earth is a sphere due to his religious beliefs. I can only guess
that Mr. Humber was either taught this in school else this is what
the "scientists" over at the Institute for Creation Research have
been selling to their believers.
But then there's another "minor" problem.
"Kay Brigham's assessment of Columbus is very positive:
`On account of faith -- ``being sure of what we hope for
and certain of what we do not see'' (Hebrews 11:1) --
Columbus discovered America...'"
- Humber.
My best guess is that on the flat Earth, Columbus discovered
America. For those of us who live on the round Earth, however,
America was visited by both the Vikings [3] and Irish seamen
at least 500 years [4] [5] before Columbus "discovered" South
America. [6a] [6d]
Mr. Humber probably shouldn't be faulted for this mistake since
it's one of the most widely-disseminated historic fallacies in
the United States. There is a fairly large effort under way around
the world to make the history text books reflect the actual history
of Columbus and his activities in the New World yet it's a difficult
process simply because the myths and legends are so ingrained
in world-wide belief and, more importantly, the true history of
Columbus is that of a bloodthirsty slave trading tyrant. [6c]
Displacing Columbus' position as top dog and installing Irish
sailors is going to take some time. Even so, the Irish Monks who
were here first _deserve_ official recognition. [6b]
Open your encyclopedia and you'll most likely be informed that
Christopher Columbus "discovered" Central America in 1502. If
your encyclopedia is anything like Grolier's, you'll also be
told that Christopher Columbus "discovered" America in 1492.
My very own encyclopedia [7] was published in 1948 -- a great many
years before current "politically correct" school texts started
appearing in the public schools. Though it covers some of Columbus'
bloodthirsty exploits, it, too, mistakenly states that Columbus
"discovered" America. [27b]
While a growing number of public school teachers are starting to
cover the earlier explorations of North, Central, and Southern
America, the vast majority of the American adult population still
labors until these mistaken beliefs. Correcting the record will
take decades. [8]
As I mentioned before, my youngest son is getting the correct
history of the "discovery" of the Americas. Every year, in fact,
during Columbus Day, students around the country are getting the
history of Columbus with the addendum that others were here
before him. [9] [10] Text books intended for High School students
are also beginning to cover the facts concerning who really
"discovered" the Americas as well as what indigenous cultures
were destroyed by Columbus and the fellow Christian monsters who
followed. [11] Christians who are willing to admit the evil of
Christopher Columbus and their own Church are starting to speak
out (rather belatedly) and ask the survivors of the cultures their
cult plundered for their forgiveness. [12]
"You want the truth?! You can't _handle_ the truth!" - Jack
And that brings up another "minor" mistake:
"I quote Columbus, who in turn was addressing his Spanish
sovereigns:
``At this time I have seen and put in study to look into
all the Scriptures, cosmography, histories, chronicles and
philosophy and other arts, which our Lord opened to my
understanding (I could sense His hand upon me), so that
it became clear to me that it was feasible to navigate
from here to the Indies; and He unlocked within me the
determination to execute the idea.''
No one doubted that sailing from Spain to India was possible. It
was a question of sailing into the _setting_ sun to reach India, not
a question of making it to India from Spain -- something the Spanish
had been doing for centuries by sailing into the _rising_ sun.
``Who doubts that this illumination was from the Holy
Spirit? I attest that He (the Spirit), with marvelous rays
of light, consoled me through the holy and sacred
Scriptures... encouraging me to proceed, and, continually,
without ceasing for a moment, they inflame me with a sense
of great urgency....''"
- Humber
Running into South America was a mistake. Columbus, using the
"hand" his "lord" gave him, mistakenly thought he had reached
India and he called the domestic populations he enslaved "Indians"
because of it.
Why didn't this "lord" inform him that the Greek's estimate of the
circumference of the world was the correct one? Why didn't this
"lord" tell him to stop fixating on women's breasts and accept that
the world was a sphere -- as the Greeks had known for centuries?
Why did this "lord" of his lie about there being a western passage
to India?
Obviously us atheists would never worship a lying god -- why
do Creationists? Isn't it immoral to worship a god who lies?
"The intent seems to be to ridicule Bible-believing
Christians and their view of science."
- Humber
Scientific method has no "view," Mr. Humber. Scientific method also
doesn't have anything to do with religious beliefs -- or _any_ venue
of belief. Electrons don't _care_ if you believe in them or not.
Gravity will work for you regardless of whether you accept its
existence or not. The world is either an oblate spheroid else it
is shaped like a woman's breast! There is no "view" when it comes to
science. There is the closest approximation to truth possible and
when set against the testable claims of Creationists, science proves
their beliefs wrong (every time, in fact) -- there is no "view"
about it!
There is most certainly acceptance and denial, of course. There is
most certainly a round world for most of us and a flat one for those
among us who need one.
As for ridiculing Creationists, we're _supposed_ to laugh at
clowns, Mr. Humber. Even those who elect to live on a flat Earth.
"Do it in the name of Heaven, you can justify it in the end" - Coven
And where would the traditional Creationist devotional be without a
healthy dose of apologetics designed to bypass the embarrassing
inhuman tyrannies instigated against innocent people at the behest
of inhuman monsters who justify their acts using the Christian
deities?
"Columbus sought the conversion of the natives. On the
premise that people are lost without Christ, such a concern
could be interpreted as an expression of genuine love
rather than of hate."
- Humber
Yes, Christopher Columbus would be quite welcome among the Humanist
groups around the country today. He was quite the humanitarian who
did all he could to bring the indigenous Indian populations nearer
to God -- by murdering a quarter of a million of them. [14] All for
their own good, of course; all out of love for his victims. When
done for God in Heaven, all is justified in the end.
In actual fact this "expression of genuine Christian love" _was_
exactly in keeping with the bloody history of Christianity and in
keeping with Columbus' own time. Dr. D. Stannard covers the actual
history of this tyrant in "American Holocaust," Oxford University
Press, 1992.
"On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross,
``making the declarations that are required'' - the
requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic
patrons in Spain. And ``nobody objected.'' If the Indians
refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding),
the requerimiento continued:
``I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall
powerfully enter in your country and shall make war
against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and
obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief
that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to
receive their lord and resist and contradict him.'" [15]
- D. Stannard
---
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"The key to my survival was never in much doubt" - Genesis
"... Lost without Christ..." Yet murdered and enslaved _with_
Christ. Keeping in mind that Christopher Columbus was an artifact
of his own time, following the Christian ideals of his own age, I
can't bring myself to place the whole of the blame upon him. The
society which felt it was better to slaughter innocent people if
they wouldn't convert to Christianity was what made Columbus the
inhuman tyrant he was -- And what allows the most bloodthirsty cult
ever created to survive to today.
Dr. D. Stannard comments further upon the slaves that Columbus took:
"Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island
he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried
off six native people who, he said, ``ought to be good servants
... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed
to me that they belonged to no religion.''" [16]
"While Columbus described the Indians as ``idolators'' and
``slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order,'' his pal
Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives
as ``beasts'' because ``they eat when they are hungry,'' and
made love ``openly whenever they feel like it.'' [17]
- D. Stannard
People who know the history of this bloodthirsty tyrant also note
that Columbus so decimated his own crew that he often _required_
slaves to operate the ships under his command. Slaves which survived
the return trip were pressed into the services of Spain's demonic
sugar industry -- the 1500's equivalent of the cocaine trade today.
(More on this slave trade later.)
Mr. Humber's audience consists of Creationists who only believe
what they are told to believe. They're also not supposed to
learn anything they're _not_ told. In the event any of his
intended believers hear rumors as to the truth about Columbus,
Mr. Humber has the bases covered:
"Sadly, exploitation of peoples and lands followed in
Columbus' wake, and Columbus himself contributed in part."
- Humber
"...contributed in part." On every one of Columbus' voyages he
enslaved as many native Indians as could fit on his ship. [18] On
his second voyage Columbus, after accidentally running his ship
aground, set up shop in Haiti and Santo Domingo, using dogs trained
to kill, to slaughter nearly every man, woman, and child. [19]
There was no attempts at "conversion;" there was only genocide for
the express purposes of seizing innocent people's lands. Columbus
called these lands "Hispanola" and he so decimated the populace that
his son Diego and fellow Christian slave traders were _forced_ to fan
out into the Caribbean in search of more slaves who lands they could
plunder and who citizens they could murder.
The Christian slaughters were so total that Columbus successfully
obliterated at least three known civilizations. The Arawak, [24]
Carib, and the Taino didn't manage to survive Columbus' "contribution
in part" as Mr. Humber calls it.
"According to Morison, Columbus and his family were
different from many of the others who wanted ``to get
gold quick and go home.'' Only Columbus, ``his family
and a few faithful, humble souls'' cared for establishing
a 'permanent settlement''' and the transfer of
Christianity to the Indies.""
- Humber
"...transfer of Christianity..." Is that what they're calling
genocide these days? In any event this is a lie. Columbus
instituted "the encomienda system" specifically to plunder the
wealth of the West Indies as quickly and as profitably as
possible. [20] He slaughtered so many domestic slaves that
fellow Christians had to repeatedly request officially that
he "take it easy" otherwise there would be shortages of slaves
to run the sugar plantations. [21] After filling his ships
(which could hold 500 slaves) he left the remaining slaves to
his crew who raped, tortured, then murdered them. [22]
Why didn't Mr. Humber mention the _rest_ of Morison's 1955 review
of the history of Christopher Columbus? Did the Samuel Morison of
the flat Earth forget to include these pages? Mr. Humber seems
to have been reading a version of Morison's book quite different
than the version here on the round world.
As for how Columbus had no interest in raping these people of
their gold, perhaps that may have been true on the flat Earth yet
here on the round Earth, gold and slavery were his primary
concerns:
"As soon as I arrived in the Indies, on the first Island
which I found, I took some of the natives by force in order
that they might learn and might give me information of
whatever there is in these parts."
The information Columbus wanted most was: "Where is the gold?"
He had persuaded the king and queen of Spain to finance an
expedition to the lands, the wealth, he expected would be on
the other side of the Atlantic -- the Indies and Asia, gold and
spices. [25]
In fact Columbus was promised 10% of the profits from the lands
and people he raped -- including 10% of the slaves he managed to
bring back to Spain alive. [26]
"Hispaniola is a miracle. Mountains and hills, plains and
pastures, are both fertile and beautiful... the harbors are
unbelievably good and there are many wide rivers of which the
majority contain gold..."
"There are many spices, and great mines of gold and other
metals..."
[The Indians] "are so naive and so free with their possessions
that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When
you ask for something they have, they never say no. To the
contrary, they offer to share with anyone...."
He concluded his report by asking for a little help from their
Majesties, and in return he would bring them from his next
voyage "as much gold as they need... and as many slaves as
they ask." [27c]
Why doesn't Mr. Humber relate to his Creationist readers _any_ of
this? Is this yet further history revisionism on the part of demonic
Christians wishing to deny the history of what they have done for
their deity constructs? Or was Mr. Humber simply totally ignorant
about what he was speaking of? It's undeniably certain that his
intended audience buys whatever they read in their occult tracts,
of course, no matter how outrageous. The only question is whether
these hugely important omissions were intended to deceive or whether
Mr. Humber is honestly ignorant.
"Heros don't come easy. Nonsense isn't new to me..." - R.E.M.
And does Mr. Humber even recognize the hatred and inhuman bigotry
that drove his hero Columbus? I doubt it.
"Indeed, he named the very first island he landed on
San Salvador out of regard for his ``Holy Savior''"
(translation).
- Humber
And just _fuck_ the fact that the people he enslaved and slaughtered
and the cultures he decimated already had names for their own
countries.
To conclude the irony, let's take a good look at this hero.
"``Columbus always loved to apply the Sacred
Scriptures to his own life and adventures,''"
Boy, that's certainly undeniable, brothers and sisters. The bloody
history of Christopher Columbus certainly proves he was indeed a
Christian carrying forth in the true spirit of Christianity. How
long will it be before fellow Christian fundamentalists start
denying it?
References
[1] - Pythagoras of Samos, 560-480 BCE; Aristotle, 384-322 BCE.
They knew the world was a sphere. Why didn't Columbus' "lord"
know it?
[2] - The Earth's circumference is 24,902 miles. The Greeks had
come within 10% to 15% of this value (being off by 2,500 to
some 3,750 miles.) It wasn't until 1615 that Dutch
mathematician Willebrord van Roijen SNELL derived a value
optically to within 5% of the actual size (being off by some
1,250 miles.) Columbus's "lord," however, gave him several
guesses -- all of them much too short! No wonder Columbus
missed: He worshipped a lying god.
[3] - Visits by Vikings. Include by deadline, otherwise exclude.
[SEVERIN.TXT provides glib reference.]
[4] - Visits by Irish. "Navigatio Santi Brendani Abatis." St.
Brendan of Tralee in Country Kerry, was born in 484 CE and
died in 577 CE. He was ordered by Bishop Erc to sail
around the Northwestern Europe spreading the Christian cult.
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Accounts of his voyages include visits to Northern America
yet it wasn't until 1976 that the viability of such voyages
with the tools available to Brendan was proven. In 1976
Tim Severin undertook to prove that the voyage was possible
by first manufacturing a sailing boat in the manor of Brendan's
contemporaries, and then setting sail.
ACCOUNTS OF THIS JOURNEY can be found in most public libraries
these days. You may also FileRequest file SEVERIN.TXT from The
Skeptic Tank for a good coverage of this journey. National
Geographic had covered this journey in their magazine
publication as well as on PBS television.
[5] - While the feasibility of an ocean voyage by the Irish doesn't
prove conclusively that Brendan made it to North America, the
existence of physical artifacts found in West Virginia most
certainly does.
Archaeologist Dr. Robert Pyle and language expert Dr. Barry
Fell have investigated stone carvings which have been dated
from 500 to 1000 CE. They are written in Old Irish using the
Ogham alphabet.
According to Fell, "The West Virginia Ogham texts are the
oldest Ogham inscriptions from anywhere in the world. They
exhibit the grammar and vocabulary of Old Irish in a manner
previously unknown in such early rock-cut inscriptions in any
Celtic Language."
He further comments, "It seems possible that the scribes that
cut the West Virginia inscriptions may have been Irish
Missionaries in the wake of Brendan's voyage, for these
inscriptions are Christian. The early Christian symbols of
piety, such as the various Chi-Rho monograms and the Dextra
Dei appear at the sites together with the Ogham texts."
[6a] - Of course is it the height of arrogance to pretend to
"discover" a country which is heavily populated and has
dozens of domestic cultures and civilization. It's as
absurd as sailing to the South Pacific Island of Tonga and
"discovering" it.
[6b] - It may be that racial bigotry is one of the reasons why
getting the text books to correctly attribute the "discovery"
of America to the Irish. Bigotry and hatred against the
Irish still persists and has been with us for a long time.
The Los Angeles Times, on November 3, 1994, published an
article titled, "In Honor of Charlatans and Racists: 'The
Bell Curve' pays tribute to some of history's most notorous
pseudo-scientific hate-mongers," written by Alexander
Cockburn. (The Bell Curve is a racist book financed by the
Christian hate organization call "The Heritage Foundation.")
This article starts off by taking a look at 'The Bell
Curve's' "intellectual ancestry," listed in the book's
introduction.
"There on the opening page is Galton, cited in
blandly respectful terms. Galton was a charlatan
whose scientific procedures are well exhibited in
his 1873 essay 'Hereditary Improvement.' He wrote
that, after the great famine of the 1840's, 'The
Irish type of face seemed to have become more
prognathous, that is, more like the Negro in the
protrusion of the lower jaw; the interpretation of
which was that the men who had survived the
starvation and other deadly accidents of that
horrible time were more generally of a low or
coarse organization."
This attitude, though to a _much_ lesser extent, remains in
America. (As an aside, this level of "scholarship" also
indicates a total lack of understanding about natural
selection.)
[6c] - The effort to keep Columbus listed as both discovering
America as well as discovering that the Earth is a sphere
is led by white Fundamentalist Christians.
[6d] - There are several organizations which continue to pretend
that the Earth is flat -- because a round Earth contradicts
their Christian "scriptures."
"... [T]o affirm that the Sun is really fixed in
the center of the heavens and that the Earth revolves
very swiftly around the Sun is a dangerous thing, not
only irritating the theologians and philosophers, but
injuring our holy faith and making the sacred scripture
false." --- Vatican theologian Robert Bellarmine,
early 17th century.
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is
as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of
a virgin." - Cardinal Bellarmine 1615, during the trial
of Galileo.
One such contemporary organization is the "Tycho Society"
(which The Skeptic Tank has information on. They are stored
within the Flat Earth archives. There is another unrelated
organization of that same name, by the way, so take care if
you do further research to avoid mixing the two.)
Another is the Flat Earth Society: the more widely-known
Christian mythology-based anti-science organization.
(Ironically their "academic scholarship" is equal to that
of the anti-science Institute for Creation Research's
"scholarship.")
A copy of the Flat-Earth Society's charter may be downloaded
from The Skeptic Tank. Additionally you may contact them
directly:
International Flat Earth Society,
Post Office Box 2533
Lancaster, CA. 93539-2533
Charles K. Johnson, President
Marjory Waugh Johnson, Sec.
Telephone: (805) 727-1635
[7] - The American People's Encyclopedia, 1948, page 5-904 through
5-907.
[8] - There are some signs that private religious schools ---
specifically Christian schools -- have stated they have no
intention of correcting these mistakes. The stated reasons
are many yet foremost among them is the need to deny
Columbus' bloodthirsty rampages throughout the New World and
his slave trade -- every bit of which was in keeping with
Christianity's traditions. When I can get a private
Christian school to answer my questions honestly, I'll
include their reasoning here.
[9] - The effort to educate the adult American populace continues.
Toward this effort there are a number of books and video tapes
covering the landfalls predating Columbus. One such video
is a brief summation intended to quickly cover some of the
salient points. "Who Really Discovered America?" Dated 1992
and produced by Craig Lewis, Rhonda Henry, Joe Lazores, and
Lisa Montour.
[10] - Brian D. Gallagher of "The Middle School Journalism Class,"
reports, "Bill's fifth grade class is studying European
explorers in the New World; they will be doing a play called
'Who Really Discovered America.'" Gallagher doesn't comment
upon the content of the play, sadly.
[11] - Renardo Barden, "The Discovery of America," Greenhaven Press,
San Diego, 1989. 0-89908-071-5.
Roy Gallant, "Ancient Indians: The First Americans," Enslow
Publishers, Hillside NY, 1989. 0-89490-187-7.
Warwick Brey et al., "The Ancient Americas," Peter Bedrick,
New York, 1989. 0-87226-303-7.
[12] - Richard Lundstrom, 1975, in his speech delivered at a
Kateri Tekakwotha conference, covered just a few of the
inhuman tyrannies inflicted upon the indigenous populations
of the nations Columbus plundered.
He asked that history not judge the man too harshly as he was
the construct of his time, a man who lived under the Catholic
dictate that all non-Catholics have no rights.
Lundstrom was a Catholic who felt that the Church must admit
to the "sins" of Columbus and his legacy else every Christian
will share in the responsibility for those sins.
FOR A COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT of this speech, FileRequest file
COLMBS.TXT from The Skeptic Tank.
[13] - Intentionally left blank.
[14] - See "Christopher Columbus Mariner" by Samuel Eliot Morison,
Mentor Press, New York, 1955, page 98. The body count soars
to one million when the slaughters in the Bahamas, Cuba,
Jamaica, Puerto Rico, and the Lesser Antilles are counted.
Ironically, Mr. Humber references this book as well yet, for
some mysterious reason, elected to ignore most of it.
[15] - American Holocaust, Dr. D. Stannard, Oxford University
Press, 1992. page 66
[16] - Stannard, loco citato, page 200
[17] - Stannard, loco citato, pages 204 and 205
[18] - Morison, loco citato, page 43 and 64.
[19] - See, "The Indian and the White Man," by Wilcombe Washburn,
Anchor, Garden City, 1964. Pages 222 through 227.
---
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|From: Fredric Rice
|To: All
|Sub: GP018.ASC - 6 of 6
|Date: 04 Apr 97 21:49:45
EID:afd8 2284ae36
MSGID: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2f15c8e7
PID: FM 2.02
[20] - See, "The Indians of the America," Mentor, New York,
1948. pages 79 and 80.
Also see Morison, loco citato, page 119.
This system is also called "repartimiento."
Also see, "The Indian in American History," Harcort Brace,
New York, page 32.
[21] - Motolinia's History of New Spain, Academy of American
Franciscan History, Washington D.C., 1951, page 251.
[22] - Morison, loco citato, page 97.
[23] - To let me know that Mr. Humber knows as much about evolution
as any Creationist, in private email dated 16/Mar/97 he
informed me:
"Evolution definitely is a religion--an idol--for many."
After requesting information on what he was told evolution
is (and why he keeps capitalizing the word every time he uses
it even though it's not usually considered a noun) I received
the following:
Evolution (capital because starting a sentence) is the
naive notion that everything has evolved from
symplicity (sic) to complexity. This pertains in the
cosmic realm as well as the biological realm. It clashes
with known truth -- namely that animals are not becoming
increasingly complex but are in fact dying off
(extinctions!). Much more could be said, but I do have
other obligations.
Explains a great deal, doesn't it? One of the requirements
for membership in the Creationist cult is the total lack of
knowledge about what evolution actually is, it seems.
[24] - Arawak. Here's what Christopher Columbus' log has to say
about these people.
"They... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and
spears and many other things which they exchanged for
the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded
everything they owned.... They were well-built, with
good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear
arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword,
they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of
ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made
of cane.... They would make fine servants.... With
fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do
whatever we want."
By the year 1550 there were less than 500 Arawak's left due to
the genocide instigated by Columbus. By the year 1650, there
were none left.
Bartolome' de las Casas was the only Christian priest to vocally
speak out against the inhuman tyrannies of his Christian masters.
His own journals report:
"Endless testimonies ... prove the mild and pacific
temperament of the natives. . - . But our work was to
exasperate, ravage, kill, mangle and destroy; small
wonder, then, if they tried to kill one of us now and
then.... The admiral, it is true, was blind as those
who came after him, and he was so anxious to please the
King that he committed irreparable crimes against the
Indians...."
[25] - A People's History of the United States, Columbus, the
Indians, and Human Progress
[26] - A People's History, loco citato
[27a] - Adolf Hitler -- a man who shared the same brand name of the
Christian religion as Columbus -- also "put his faith into
action." The results were the same Additionally, Humber
notes:
"That religious elements played a great part in
Columbus's thoughts and actions is evident from
all his writings..."
The same can be said for Hitler and Stalin. The results
are always the same.
[27b] - Rev. David Rice notes that his dictionary claims that
Christopher Columbus "...determined that the Earth was
round..."
[27c] - A People's History, loco citato
[27d] - "Newton was greatly handicaped by the Christian-sanctioned
size of the Earth: when he used the Christian values for
Earth's size, his planetary motion figures for the other
planets were off, but when he used the Greek figures, his
orbital predictions were precise. This was nearly two
centuries after Columbus."
- Rev. David Rice, 17/Mar/97
[28] - History of the Later Roman Empire, vol. 2, J. B. Bury,
page 321.
"The earth, according to Cosmas, is a flat rectangle,
and its length is double its breadth. The heavens form
a second story, welded to the extremities of the earth
by four walls. The dry land which we inhabit is
surrounded by the ocean, and beyond it is another land
where men lived before the deluge. The firmament is the
ceiling between the two stories, and the earth, the lower
story, lies at the bottom of the universe, to which it
sank when it was created. There is nothing below it.
Hence, the Pagan theory of the antipodes is a delusion.
On its western side the earth rises into a great conical
mountain, which hides the sun at night. The sun is not
larger than the earth, as the Pagans falsely imagine,
but much smaller. The revolutions of all the celestial
bodies are guided by angel pilots. [Footnote says: The
extension of the work of creation over six days - whereas
it could have been accomplished by a single fiat - is
ingeniously explained as due to the Creator's wish to
give a series of object lessons to the angels.]
This dates from around the sixth century and has its origins
in Byzantium. After reading it you'll probably come to the
same conclusion I have: While the scientific world progresses
in leaps and bounds, Creationists haven't learned a thing in
over 1,300 years.
Paul G. Humber "responds" to the embarrassing truth:
As promised, I solicited response from Mr. Humber which I agreed
would be appended to this article unedited and complete. Since he's
a Creationist, however, the "response" received was as expected:
There was not even an attempt to address the lies, deceptions,
dishonesty, or any of the scientific and historical misconceptions
found among his religious rants. There were further statements of
occult religious beliefs yet there was no attempt to address the
issues.
Indeed, it's almost as if his request for me to provide a write-up
of his Impact article was a deceptive ploy to try to waste my time.
He certainly seems to have had no interest in actually reading it.
The result of the exercise, however, remains of benefit for all of
us who fight against such lunacy: Here is a teacher tasked with
educating children. Horribly, he's also a Creationist.
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:39:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Humber
To: Fredric Rice
Subject: Re: Green Pastures
Thank you for sending a response to my article. I would
be happy to receive a hard copy if such exists. I know
very little of the Green Pastures publication. My address
is Paul G. Humber, Upper School Faculty, The Haverford
School, 450 W. Lancaster Ave., Haverford, PA 19041.
Regarding the over 500 pages of materials you sent giving
examples of organisms going from one species to another, I
found the consideration of such things as bacteria and fruit
flies unconvincing. A fruit fly with or without wings is a
fruit fly, etc. I do not deny variations with survival
benefit (microevolution). I am looking for one example on
the macro scale.
I now better understand your objection to my calling atheism
a religion. I came accross the statement in what you sent,
"Every religion is a cult." Since you probably consider
yourself an atheist, you would not want to see yourself as a
cultist. You strongly object.
Let me commend you for your zeal. I believe it is very
misguided (as you think me misguided), but you surely put
in a lot of energy and time.
-------------------------------|*
Paul G. Humber, Philadelphia |*
phumber@mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us |*
-------------------------------|*
Copyright Notice and Such
Green Pastures is copyright protected by Fredric L. Rice of The
Skeptic Tank. Written March of 1997. All rights are reserved.
You may freely distribute this article or fragments thereof.
The opinions expressed within are the sole opinions of Fredric
L. Rice. frice@linkline.com.
---
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ED MILLS
|Sub: vacation
|Date: 01 Apr 97 00:06:00
EID:e9fa 228100c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ed Mills to Marty Leipzig <=-
FR> ~*~ You are completely unsullied by the ravages of intelligence.
FR> - Marty Leipzig
EM> Do you by any chance listen to Tom & Ray "Cartalk"
EM> Magliozzi on NPR? This sounds an awful lot like their
EM> trademark "unencumbered by the thought process."
I think the sentence is to be found in "Time Bandits." The
reply is "Oh, THANK YOU master, THANK YOU!"
... Hail Stargoat! He could kick Yahweh's butt any day.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Hey, asshole
|Date: 01 Apr 97 00:29:00
EID:60f1 228103a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
I realize my following comments have been answered already,
but I thought I'd bring it up one last time.
In your past 13 messages you have striven mightily, and
greatly succeeded, in gratuitiously insulting Fundy idiots
in the worse possible, vulgar, and abusive way. Yes, in
every case they deserve vilification and denunciation.
However, constant verbal abuse does no one good here. In
my messages I try to say only what I would say to someone
directly in her or his face, though I do not always manage
that restraint.
If you can't quit cold-turkey :-) you could slowly taper
off. Swap "BF" for "Buttfuck" now and then, then eventually
sawp "Little dear" for "BF." :-)
... "Spiritually stupid?" That's redundant, you fundie fool. -- SS
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: David Fasold lies
|Date: 01 Apr 97 00:57:00
EID:4d12 22810720
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Dan Ceppa <=-
>>GLH> Much of it was unearthed right here in Colorado,
>>GLH> not too many miles distant from your home...sme
>>GLH> of it as recently as the onstruction of the I-70
>>GLH> corridor thru the western slope area. Fossils of
>>GLH> sea-born creatures, deposits of obvious marine
>>GLH> sediment, etc. All of which goes to prove how poorly
>>GLH> you research your claims.
Goodness. I missed the above message. I have a comment. :-)
FR> Anyother Creationist who thinks that inland-
FR> marine fossils "prove" there was a global flood. Hint:
FR> He's not claiming that there are mammals mixed in with
FR> trilobites; he's claiming that there are marine fossils
FR> in Colorado along the I-70 Interstate. PROOF! at the idiot>
Interstate 70 is the highway I take to Colorado every August.
I make a point of stopping to look for fossils (naked). Western
Colorado, Utah, Nevada, and parts of Wyoming were all part
of a vast sea, which anyone who cares to look at the ground
can see. Thousands of layers of alternating limestone, lava,
pebbles, boulders (perhaps deposited during glaciation events),
shale, sandstone.... going back hundreds of millions of years.
Zion National Park has an excellent exhibit explaining the
geology. After one views the exhibit, one may hike a mile
into the desert, along a trail, and view a huge cliff that
has been (naturally) severed in two, with layer after layer
of differing material.
George here seems to be implying that this was discovered
during the "[recent] [...] construction of the I-70." If so,
that is a bizarre claim to make, and totally false.
Dumont Dunes, in the bottom left of Nevada, is evidence of
the latest dry-up of that area. Ocean sand piled several
hundred feet high--- sand made from a sea that took so long
to dry up, it had time to hydrodynamically grind rocks
to sand with its waves and tides. Evidence AGAINST the
mythical "global flood" claim.
>>GLH> FYI: I got my "scientific evidence" from a TA at
>>GLH> Metro State,
"Teacher's aid." Wow. I'm living proof that any idiot can
be a teacher's aid.
"These weren't just some Joe Blow: these were real scientists!"
>DC> Gee, that's so impressive. I bet you are personal
>DC> friends with David Fasold as well.
He blows Fasold under the podium at every Creationist
convention.
FR> A buck says he's bought everything Fasold sold him.
No bet. :-)
... "You appear to be upset because you're stupid and others aren't" FRice
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:11:00
EID:23f9 22810960
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Jim Staal <=-
> ~*~ I have seen and heard Lucifer, the Prince of
> Darkness. - Ric Remington
Panhandling for spare change at the mall, no doubt.
... Born again people don't seem to get as much oxygen the second time.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: questions for chosen one
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:14:00
EID:92d1 228109c0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Robert Curry <=-
RC> He also gives away free bananas. I didn't ask why.
His keepers at the zoo feed them to him.
RC> Please feel free to suggest further lines of inquiry,
RC> folks.
Why is the number 173 so common in the laws of nature
with regard to physics?
... "Little fish in the big HolySmokian Sea. Right, chum?" --- ML
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE HARPER
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:22:00
EID:7886 22810ac0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Harper to David Rice <=-
>DR> Not "the" Christian faith, stupid. ALL of the Christian
>DR> faiths! (There are hundreds.)
GH> I know of only one: [....]
Since you are therefore vastly ignorant about Christianity,
you are a waste of time. Come back when you know just what
Christianity is, how it was created, and why. Then we can
talk.
... My mother was pro-choice.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Literally Seaking
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:37:00
EID:ebfd 22810ca0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-
>DR> It has been my observation that the enlightened,
>DR> as a whole, do not go to church as much as the
>DR> unenlightened.
JS> I was referring to 'spiritual enlightenment'.
That is, of course, technically known as an "oxymoron."
Belief in anything "spiritual" involved darkness and
ignorance, not en lightenment.
>DR> It's just that as a whole, education decreases theism.
JS> it is my opinion, David, that education increases pride
JS> and and self relieance, and pride insulates against God.
It is my opinion, James, that education (of others) is the
single bigest reason you exist. The educated of the past
has m ade your very existance possible. They learned how
to produce the food you eat; the clothing you wear; the
transportation to benefit from (personal and commercial
transport). You may piss about "pride," but this so-called
"pride" SUSTAINS you.
>DR> Rather, I would like to see the degree of religosity
>DR> decreased over-all so that it no longer threatens, as
>DR> it does today, the very existance of our species.
JS> You do not consider the jpossibility that homosexuality
JS> (not much procreation going on in that state) and abortion
JS> could jpossibly be a threat to the very existance of our
JS> species?
I wish I could believe that question was a joke, but I will
take it at face value.
No, homosexuality and abortion does not threaten our species.
Both have been occuring constantly for 10,000 years and we
still glut the planet to the tune of 5.5 billion people
(that's 5,500,000,000).
By the way. Of those 5.5 billion people, without the "pride"
of the educated, billions would not exist.
... If Ken Wiens had half a brain, his ass would be lopsided.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Misunderstanding?
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:41:00
EID:03a6 22810d20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-
JS> On (26 Mar 97) DAVID RICE wrote to FREDRIC RICE...
>DR> I do not see where Rodger is coming from. Concealing ones'
>DR> illness is one thing; not telling a lover one has NIV is
>DR> another.
JS> In Michigan it is a crime punishable by 2 years
JS> imprisonment. Not enough in my estimation, for
JS> knowingly prounouncing a death sentence on another
JS> unsuspecting human being.
The two issues are vastly different.
1) telling a lover one has HIV
2) broadcasting to the world one has HIV
I objected to mandate #2. Rodger insisted, falsely, that I
objected to #1. They are two different subjects completely.
... What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! - Pope Leo X
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: clones
|Date: 01 Apr 97 01:54:00
EID:1340 22810ec0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Richard Smith <=-
>>gh> ANY writings, religious or otherwise, say that the only
>>gh> sentient life forms in the universe are here on this
>>gh> planet?
Yowza!
>RS> Some people have thought as much, though.
JB> Passed right by this. He needs to get together with
JB> Staal. Remember? Staal says that if there was life
JB> anyplace else the bible would say so.
This galexy has several hundred billion stars. The universe
has hundreds of billions of galexies. (There may even be many
universes.) Many cosmologists think planetary systems are the
rule and not the exception. And yet James believes all this
space was created just for Humanity's sake.
That's a goddamned arrogant belief. He complained about how
the educated have too much "pride," but this belief of his
is vastly greater in hubris than any education could be.
... Fight against injustice! Abolish religion.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE HARPER
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 02 Apr 97 00:34:00
EID:7886 22820440
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Harper <=-
GH> infallibility and literality of the COMPLETE Word[sic]
GH> Of[sic] God[sic], unchanged since it was written.
Oh, yes. Certainly.
By the way, the book of Jeremiah had been rewritten (redacted;
changed; modified) constantly for nearly 1,200 years since it
was first written. Why would the "word of god" need to be
rewritten, as Jeremiah has been?
By the way, the book of Mark had been rewritten and appended
120 years after it was written. Why would the "word of god"
need to be rewritten, as Mark has been?
By the way, the Masoretic Bible is vastly different than the
Septuagint (the latter is the one you worship; the former is
closer to the original). Why would the "word of god" need to
be vastly changed, adding and removing entire verses and
swapping over 6,000 words, as your version of the Bible has
been?
GH> These Christians accept wwithout question that[....]
Because they are stupid imbicils who don't know any better.
... Melenkurion abatha! Minas mill khabaal!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 02 Apr 97 13:41:00
EID:1099 22826d20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Karen Davis:
>>KY> No, I mean ORGANIZED prayer.
>KD> Which never belonged there in the first place.
KY> Why not?
Because Jesus said, in Matthew not to.
But since you don't care about what Jesus said on this
matter, I appreciate your permission to lead your
children in praise to Satan in public school. Thank
you very much.
... "I was such a shithead. Of course, I was also a Christian at the time.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KAREN DAVIS
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 04 Apr 97 00:03:00
EID:0f64 22840060
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Ken Wiens <=-
>KW> No problem. Another human being is prevented from having a
>KW> life because of the selfish, self-righteous attitudes of
>KW> those who choose to abort,i.e., prevent another human from
>KW> having a life.
No wonder Christians rape women so much. It would be selfish
not to, since a child might result. (Shudder!)
KD> It's selfish to want to live? To have a real life as
KD> opposed to the destroyed shell of a life an unplanned
KD> pregnancy brings?
Yes. Now take your shoes off and get back in the kitchen.
How DARE you, a mere WOMAN, want a real life?!?!
... Laurie, maybe you don't realize it... but you are a moron. - J. Christ
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Dead god
|Date: 02 Apr 97 14:02:00
EID:d2c5 22827040
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to David Rice <=-
>>KY> He died, that's for sure..[sic] But guess what? There
>>KY> is one little part of this called the resurrection of
>>KY> Christ!
>DR> But guess what? There's no live body to show us!
>DR> *DEBUNKED!*
KY> Ah, that stone rolled away all by itself!
Stop being stoned and SHOW US THE LIVE BODY. Otherwise,
your resurrection myth is *DEBUNKED.*
You may start now. Thank you.
... A person without a religion is like a whale without a harpoon.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: My Summer Weekend
|Date: 02 Apr 97 14:23:00
EID:07a6 228272e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jim Staal <=-
Welcome back, however short or long. (Er, time-wise.)
>>ML> Go ahead. Servants serve. I prefer to master my own
< destiny.
As near as any human can.
>JS> Ah. Very well, then. Please tell me the exact date of
>JS> your future demise and the manner in which you will meet
>JS> same?
Secret Service sharp-shooters taking me out seconds after
I off Marion "Pat" Robertson if he ever becomes president.
ML> In the year 2058, with a cigar in one hand, a nicely
ML> chilled flagon of adult beverage in the other; surrounded
ML> by an adoring family and momentos of a life well spent.
I'm checking out in the opposite lane. I'm going to die in
some Mexican brothel surrounded with strangers who will fight
over my wallet and credit card while my body cools. 1997
seems like a good year for this.
ML> Too bad you'll miss out on all of the above.
Ah, you have an I.Q. atendance limit of 85 or above.
>>ML> You goob.
>JS> Interesting. Definition?
ML> Look in a mirror.
(Insert sounds of shattering glass here.)
... My mother was pro-choice.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROBERT CURRY
|Sub: Well?
|Date: 04 Apr 97 00:04:00
EID:7485 22840080
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Fredric Rice <=-
> without: Jesse Jones
LOL!
>FR> Now that you've had months to open a fucking book
>FR> and learn something, do you have anything to say?
>FR> Anything at all?
RC> Did he ever? Well, maybe once or twice, but he kept
RC> getting stuck on that unwarranted prejudice against
RC> atheists.
And our lawyer jokes. :-)
RC> I doubt that Brother Jesse will respond to you, anyway,
RC> because he was always a bit afraid of you.
LOL! Maybe Bro' Jesse Christ Jones never encountered someone
without any restraint before. He must have quivered every time
he saw a message from Give-'em-hell-'til-he-bleeds-Fredric in
his mail bag. :-) [sweating and trembling:] "Oh god, please,
no more. No more! Please let me leave this echo before Fred
destroys what little's left of my mind! Amen!"
RC> When calling you "empty" didn't make you roll over and
RC> vanish, he tried identifying you with the (former) Soviet
RC> Union, which was supposed to be the embodiment of evil.
RC> What a laugh!
That was damn funny. Comrade Jesse must not have read his
paper idol close enough--- Jesus advocated Communism, as
far as I could tell.
RC> Ah, the memories of our dearly departed liberal fundy. :-)
The old ones are still the fondest.
RC> Whatever shall I do now with the blasphemous tools of
RC> my cunning?
Have Her slap some other fundy silly? Er, sillier?
... It's not nice to fuck with Mother Nature!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: ROD SWIFT
|Sub: Debunked Again!
|Date: 02 Apr 97 15:53:00
EID:fa34 22827ea0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Rod Swift to Ken Young <=-
RS> See the article I've attached about the religious
RS> right wing's murdering of innocent gay youths by
RS> forcing them to repent or commit suicide.
The person who broke German and Japanese codes during
the war after the war to end all wars (I tried to find
his name, but failed--- Zimmerman? Zuckerman?), was
tortured to death by his government for the crime of
being homosexual. They performed medical experiments
on him to try and "cure" him. This was the guy whos work
may have saved hundreds of thousands of lives and most
certainly helped end the war sooner than otherwise, and
he was emprisioned and repaid with horror at the hands
of his own nation.
I guess the motto "Better dead than fag" was used until
they came up with "Better dead than red."
... The inspiration in the Bible depends on the ignorance of the reader.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 02 Apr 97 15:55:00
EID:7322 22827ee0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young To Rod Smith <=-
KY> If my son or daughter married a homosexual, I
KY> would be quite upset...[sic]
You have no say in the matter.
... The fool hath said in his heart: "There is a god."
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: SHELBY SHERMAN
|Sub: yard sale
|Date: 02 Apr 97 16:11:00
EID:f98a 22828160
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to Ed Mills <=-
>EM> For Sale, cheap:
>EM> A whole bunch of computers, modems, etc.
>EM> Also a couple of nice Schmidt-Cassegrain telescopes.
>EM> Rancho Santa Fe Police, Coroners Office
SS> You're terrible...but come to think of it...who gives
SS> a shit if a bunch of fundie cultist whackos, waiting
SS> for a UFO to come whisk them away, ice themselves?
SS> Fuck 'em.
I care. So "should" every other human being. The deaths
could not have been avoided (because we have the First
Amendment (thanks to the foresight of The Virginians) and
thus the acknowledged right to worship as one pleases),
but it is tradgic none the less. It is an event worthy
of grief and ire. Any time young people say that Earth
holds "nothing for me," a little piece of the human
spirit has died. Most of these people were VICTIMS, and
they should be grieved as such.
Just my two-in-the-morning opinion.
... "I c-c-c-can quit any time I w-w-w-want." -- Hector
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hit
|Date: 02 Apr 97 16:31:00
EID:7957 228283e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-
> >>RS> And, btw, why should we take time away from learning for
> >>RS> this, what good will it accomplish?
>>JS> Considering the quality of public education these days,
>DR> Which is excellent, by the way. Don't piss sour grapes just
>DR> because YOU failed so badly in public schools.
JS> Dave, I never attended public schools.
Ahhhh. THAT explains it!
... You get more with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE HARPER
|Sub: You forgot to answer thi
|Date: 02 Apr 97 16:33:00
EID:d5f5 22828420
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Harper to David Rice <=-
>>GH> (NEWS FLASH: Hitler was NOT a Christian...he was
>>GH> a lunatic on the order of Jimmy Jones)
>DR> VALID NEWS FLASH: Hitler was a Christian--- he said so.
>DR> But then, so was the Rev Jim Jones.
GH> AND Stalin was an atheist, as well as Saddam Hussein...
GH> both have committed atrocities in an attempt to wipe
GH> out the opposition.
Stalin: Christian Orthodox, who said he learned control
from the Church.
Hussein: Muslim.
Try again, stupid.
... A person without a religion is like a whale without a harpoon.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Converting to Atheism
|Date: 02 Apr 97 16:37:00
EID:6229 228284a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Don Martin to David Rice <=-
>DR> With the likes of Ken, Ken, Liarton, and the three Daryles,
>DR> I'm glad god saw fit to make sure I was never a Christian.
DM> It always astonishes me when these bozos comment on how
DM> difficult it must be to remain an atheist when their
DM> example would convert the Pope.
ROTFL!
I've read Fundy messages that claim exactly that: that the Pope
is atheist.
... "Cadavers show more REM then he does." -- God Dan Ceppa
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: BILL WOLFF
|Sub: ACT LIKE A CHRISTIAN NUT
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:31:00
EID:3f84 22839be0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Bill Wolff to Martin Goldberg <=-
>MG> Why did you claim that Carl Sagan supported
>MG> creationism?
BW> ROTFL! I didn't claim that Carl Sagan supported
BW> creationism, you twit!
The sad, disgusting truth is, you presented a FALSE
"quote" from Carl Sagan purporting him to be a stupid
Creationist (redundant). You MANUFACTURED the "quote"
out of HALF of one of his sentences, terminating the
sentence with a period. The result you then presented
to folks as a "scientist who agrees with Creatiionism,"
as you asserted in the DEBUG echo.
Truely disgusting behavior on your part, meta-twit.
... Whenever anyone promises heaven on Earth, expect hell.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: jesus needed...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:39:00
EID:a417 22839ce0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Sue Armstrong
>SA> He should have done, to be called "Rabbi"
>SA> legitimately.
JS> I don't recall He[sic] ever took the title upon
JS> Himself[sic].
Jesus wasn't allowed to be a Rabbi, since he was a
bastard / masmer and possibly homosexual. In the
Infancy Gospels he is a petulant tyrant--- not very
good Rabbi material.
You should have picked a better god.
... "Reach out and tough yourself." -- Motto, Virgin Hotline
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:51:00
EID:521b 22839e60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young <=-
KY> The majority of cases of child rape are examples of
KY> sodomy, which tells me that most are likely gay.
You have confused pedophiles with homosexuals. Stupid you.
By the way. I would trust my children to the care of
homosexuals before I'd trust them to Fundamentalist
Christians.
... Rush Limbaugh gay? That's enough to make homosexuals homophobic.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DAVE HAMILTON
|Sub: spacefundy
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:56:00
EID:ba81 22839f00
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Dave Hamilton to Fredric Rice <=-
>>> Does anyone know a fundy named "rocket77" who posts
>>> spam from a fictitious e-mail address (rocket77@one.net)?
>>> I got a religious solicitation in private fido netmail
>>> via a gateway somewhere. My response was bounced, of
>>> course.
>FR> I got the same spam.
>FR> I suspect that it is a fundy FidoNet participant -- a
>FR> lunatic buttfuck from right here in HolySmoke who's a
>FR> coward and won't use his real name.
DH> Really? Are there any who are smart enough to do that?
The evidence seems to point in that direction. Not only was
the BBS I use (SteveQ's) spammed with the same "message" (it
was addressed to me), but IO received the same message twice
via internet e-mail, from two forged addresses.
George Mooth comes to mind.
... And god said, "Let there be idiots!" and there WAS Rush Limbaugh.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Book
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:01:00
EID:9750 2283b020
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Lynda Bustilloz <=-
>>DM> o Floods and The Flood:
>>DM> Opportunity for the spiritual to leave some physical
>>DM> footprints. Marine fossils on mountaintops! Four-lane
>>DM> highways to the top of Arrarat and other Turkish
>>DM> wonders (including steering wheels). Scientific
>>DM> reflections on atmospheric pressures, heat of
>>DM> formation, hydrospheres and the like.
>LB> (only reminds me because you have said flood evidence
>LB> would, er, 'turn the tide' for you, so to speak...but
>LB> how about a list from nonbelievers on what evidence
>LB> they WOULD accept?)
DM> Good point! Well, Gang?
I'm ignorant about the issue, but that never caused me to
keep my mouth shut----
There are two issues there, not just one. The first one is,
there is massive evidence AGAINST a global flood; the second
is, one cannot define what is "acceptable evidence" BEFORE
that evidence is presented.
You are familure with the former, I'm sure. The "acceptable
evidence" must first redress this evidence againt the flood.
One cannot assign any level of confidence in a theory when
there is positive evidence AND negative evidence.
On the latter issue, Creationists have posited a vast number of
things they claim is "evidence," all of which failed utterly
to convince anyone with a functioning brain. If Creationists
cannot define "acceptable evidence," people who are open to
evidence but do not believe in this "global flood" (that would
be most if not all heathens in this echo) should not have to
a priori state what evidence they would accept.
However, I'll do so. :-) I would require ALL of the following.
1a) Find a global layer where mammal fossils are found
in situ with trilobites.
1b) Find human fossils in situ with Triassic / Jurassic
fossils. Gish and Morris both claim humans and
dinosaurs were contemporary: where's the evidence?
2) Find the missing water.
3) Explain away the mathematical IMPOSSIBILITY of the
current human geneom diversity, dispite the
genetic "bottle-neck" of a few surviving humans.
4) Explain how it was that the Egyptians and Chineese,
among others, didn't die during this "global flood."
5) Explain how the polar ice caps didn't melt.
6) Explain the existance of varves denoting 20,000,000
UNINTURRUPTED years of annual rain and dry seasons.
Note that I would not reqire finding Gilgamesh's ark, since it
seems highly unlikely to me that it would survive so long. If
the other items were validly evidenced, I would tentatively
accept the "global flood" hypothesis.
... My mother was pro-choice.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: Another SD lost
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:03:00
EID:298f 2283b060
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Ken Young to Karen Davis:
>KD> Are you admitting virginity here, Ken?
KY> Well, not like it is anything to be ashamed of, so yes,
KY> I am a virgin.
Good. Please do not reproduce. Ever.
Thank you.
... My mother was pro-choice.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: DOUG SCHWANDT
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:07:00
EID:b6ab 2283b0e0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Doug Schwandt to J.j. Hitt <=-
> I don't think these guys killed themselves. From
> newspaper accounts they were engaged in worthwhile
> activity. And, there was the report of a pungent
> odor present in the house. Of course, 39 bodies,
> all present in the same location, could raise QUITE
> a stink, depending upon how long these guys were
> dead before they were found. Still, I cast my vote
> for CYANNIDE GAS, delivered through the ventilation
> system. Since these guys were all computer whizzes,
> the chances are very good that one (or more of them)
> could have gotten hold of something they were not
> supposed to and they got their call traced. It wouldn't
> be the first time in history that a massive number of
> people have been killed to insure that the intended
> target was dead.
That's the truth. They discovered the fact that Jesus
never existed, and the Christians came and killed them.
By the way, how do you explain away the video-taped
suicide messages?
... Blasphemy is the bulwark of religious rejudice.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: GEORGE HARPER
|Sub: How About 1-On-1?
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:32:00
EID:7886 2283b400
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting George Harper to Jim Staal:
GH> Actually, if I can get them reading the Bible (even
GH> to point out discrepancies), or giving serious
GH> consideration to some point - even if my claim IS
GH> refuted, then the door has been opened for the Holy
GH> Spirit to get a foothold and begin working. The
GH> same goes for the posts you make...even if they
GH> discredit what you claim, they are having to "look
GH> it up", so all is NOT wasted.
You're so funny. Pathetic and pitiful, yes; also funny.
Has it ever occured to you that most, if not all, of the
non-believers here HAVE READ THE BIBLE?
And that many of the non-believers here have been
Fundamentalist Christians who used to believe the bullshit
and lies you believe in?
And that most of us own and have read not just "the" Bible,
but SEVERAL VERSIONS of the Bible?
And that many of us own and have read a great many other
Holy Books such as the The Book of Mormon, The Qur'an,
The Vedas, etc.?
You are a worthless hasn't-been; a clone of the past fifty
idiot Fundamentalist Christians who have passed through
here, each one of which was firmly convinced that he or
she was the "first" and "most god appointed" to spread
their bullshit amd lies here and magically convince their
intellectual superiors (i.e. the non-believers) that their
freaky, hallucinatory, arrogant fantasies of their god was
based in reality.
And just like the fifty imbicils before you, you'll piss
and moan about "being attacked;" refuse to back up your
candyassed claimsl; whimper about how "no one under-stands
poor little ole me;" you'll slouch away with your tail
'twix your palsied legs, to lick your fatal ego wounds.
You have had NOTHING original to say. Indeed, all the
silly shit you have parroted here has been parroted by
scores of other stupid shits---- you have farted NOTHING
original here. You're a clone of a clone of a clone of
a clone... way back to the beginning of the echo in 1988,
saying the same goddamned refuted bullshit.
You're as original as a goddamned Oreo cookie.
HOWEVER, you may redeem yourself. Do what your previous
clone parrots have failed to do. Produce some evidence
for your god. That would be a welcome change.
Thank you.
... My mother was pro-choice.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Oops, Caught Again
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:37:00
EID:3256 2283b4a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Rod Swift:
JS> there are no 'christian[sic] terrorists'.
Do you really live in a cave with no radio, TV, newspaper,
and visitors?
If not, how do you explain your ignorance concerning the
currenmt state of affairs in the world? Ever hear of
Ireland? Bosnia? "Operation 'Rescue?'" The Ku Klux Klan?
Christian Identity? The Oklahoma City bombing? The Church
of Jesus Christ Christian (Aryan Nation)?
You really need to get out more.
... A zealot's stones may break my bones, but gods will never hurt me
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: FREDRIC RICE
|Sub: Dangerous lunatics
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:40:00
EID:72ea 2283b500
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Judith Bandsma <=-
FR> "But I'm feeling much better now" - Adam West.
jb> ^--John Astin
FR> Wasn't the bit used in an original Batman after he
FR> recovered from Catwoman's gas which made him sing,
FR> "I'm a little teapot?"
You're both right, sort of. Astin in "Night Court,"
and West in "Batman." Only Batman sang "I'm Dear Little
Buttercup" from Gilbert and Sullivan. Goddamn, it was
funny.
... He appears to be suffering from Clue Deficiency Disorder.
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Around the World in....
|Date: 03 Apr 97 23:13:00
EID:6fe0 2283b9a0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to David Rice <=-
>>JS> Why do we need 'special' rights for gays?
>DR> Who is proposing "special rights" for "gays?"
>DR> What are these "special rights" that are being proposed?
JS> I have not a clue, but apparently they are rights I
JS> currently don't have.
What rights do you not have? How can you =NOT= have a right?
(Or you you mean a RECONIZED right?) How can you imply
homosexuals want "special rights" but you have "not a clue"
what those "special rights" are?
I hope you don't mind, but I thought I'd include some
basic civics:
There are two kinds of rights. Those that each human is
born with, and those which society grants each human.
Concerning the first kind, every human being is born with
hundreds of thousands of rights (if not millions). No
government grants these rights. No institution grants
them. They are congenital. People have rights because
they are human beings. These rights include the right
to not be harassed; strive for happiness; worship as
one pleases; speak as one pleases; move from place to
place as one wishes; to live and die as one pleases;
to go about unmolested. (To name a few.)
The second kind of rights, those granted to a society
BY the society, include the right to marry; the right
to joint finances; operate a vehicle; welfare. (To
name a few.)
In both cases, these rights apply to every human being.
NOWEVER, these rights are not always RECOGNIZED by the
State or society.
You and I have the SAME rights that homosexuals have.
However, we have more RECOGNIZED rights than the
homosexuals do. The right to marry, WHICH THEY HAVE,
is not recognized by the State. The right to fair and
equal housing and employment, WHICH THEY HAVE, is not
being recognized by the State. Indeed, the right for
homiosexuals to remain unmolested is often not recognized
by the State (often in the form of law enforcement).
So when you say "special rights," you do not know what
you are talking about. Every human being has the same
rights: not every human being has those rights
recognized. The only way to have the State and society
recognize those rights is to protest and demand that
they are recognized. Black people did it in the 1960s.
Women did it in the 1890s. Homosexuals do it in the 1990s.
... "I'm highly offended, being a christian" - Spanky Scott
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Dangerous lunatics
|Date: 03 Apr 97 23:30:00
EID:4998 2283bbc0
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Judith Bandsma to Fredric Rice <=-
>FR> Wasn't the bit used in an original Batman after he
>FR> recovered from Catwoman's gas which made him sing,
>FR> "I'm a little teapot?"
JB> I don't know. Batman was popular during a time when I
JB> was on the road with the carnival. I haven't the faintest
JB> idea of what was going on with tv during those years.
You missed Batman?! Yikes!
Catwoman had a potion that turned men into wimpy slaves.
Batman ended up singing "I'm Dear Little Buttercup." It
was very funny. At the end, Robin asks Batman if he's
back to his "ole crime-fighter self."
... Jesus wouldn't last long in HolySmoke. - Fredric Rice
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: KAREN DAVIS
|Sub: Book Theft
|Date: 03 Apr 97 23:33:00
EID:ad12 2283bc20
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Karen Davis to Jim Staal <=-
>JS> determine a husband and wife differentiation for
>JS> definition's sake...you call cubby your husband
>JS> and he, you. that is a bit confusing.
KD> Why? Husband is a word for "male partner."
"Husband" is an insult to women. Women don't need to be
husbanded like cattle. When a woman says "This is my
husband," she is insulting herself.
... Please, God, save me from some of your followers!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: JIM STAAL
|Sub: Birth Is A Crime
|Date: 03 Apr 97 23:35:00
EID:7df0 2283bc60
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Jim Staal to Judith Bandsma...
>>JS> I was making reference to roe v wade, Chris.
>JB> So where does Roe v. Wade FORCE a woman to have
>JB> an abortion if she doesn't want one?
JS> It doesn't. Merely allows it.
So in fact, you lied. Be ashamed, James.
... Instead of praying, may I trill? Hell, any moron can pray. -- Marty
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: DAVID RICE
|To: SHELBY SHERMAN
|Sub: Lest we forget the dumbas
|Date: 04 Apr 97 00:00:00
EID:32b4 22840000
TID: FastEcho 1.45a 10280
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to All <=-
SS> Crucifixions Mark Good Friday in Philippines
SS> Friday, March 28, 1997 5:10:00 PM EST
SS> CUTUD, Philippines (Reuter) - Devout Christians had
SS> themselves nailed to wooden crosses while others beat
SS> their own backs with whips in a bloody re-enactment
SS> of Jesus Christ's crucifixion on Good Friday nearly
SS> 2,000 years ago.
Ah ha! So THAT'S where Jesse Jones has wandered off to!
... Reason kills Creationism dead!
* Shy.David@EdenBBS.com
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.4H1
* Origin: "She blinded me with science!" (1:124/9005)
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|From: Dave Chance
|To: Christopher Hughes
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:29:00
EID:2817 22839ba0
PID: RA 2.5
MSGID: 1:105/337 58e2a290
TID: GE/32 1.2
NOTE: IceEdit 1.40 [Eval]
Just thought I'd take this opportunity to point out that there are no
"pleasure" or "pain" nerves, only nerve endings. The pain or pleasure felt
is
the brains interpretation of the signal sent by the same nerve endings.
This
is why some people find pleasure in what others would find painful and some
feel pain in what most find pleasurable.Too much pleasure can also result
in pain.
---
* Origin: Sunken R'lyeh - Portland, OR 503-642-3548 (1:105/337)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: BOOK
|Date: 02 Apr 97 06:23:00
EID:7506 228232e0
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Marilyn Burge <=-
DM> works of kindly ol' Doc Globberg, though: clean _his_ up,
DM> and you lose the joke of some idiot fundy "correcting" him.
Not just the joke, Don. You lose the sense of who he really is and the
fact that he is read avidly, despite the typos. He is one of 2 that I
think should NOT be corrected.
The other is Ron Vass. In his case, to show the mind behind the problems
with setting the words on the screen. Clean it up and that very special
something of Ron's is lost.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: ANOTHER STAALIN LIE
|Date: 31 Mar 97 16:45:00
EID:53f1 227f85a0
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> allows a woman to make the choice for herself.
RS> Good for you, you caught Staalin in another lie!
Geez, Richard, you act like that was something special. That's about
as hard as finding Palmetto bugs in SC. (Which is just a fancy name for
2 inch roaches)
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 31 Mar 97 16:47:00
EID:a138 227f85e0
-=> Quoting Richard Smith to Judith Bandsma <=-
RS> And yet, you'll still get the same end result . . .
I need to really thank whichever of the other Harpies fed FIDO a pie.
It was strange to log on today and have the thing read 'highest message...
19,465'; 'last read...1992'. Good thing the shop is now closed.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Brad Kennard
|Sub: ARGUEMENTS?...MY EARS
|Date: 31 Mar 97 16:50:00
EID:b5de 227f8640
-=> Quoting Brad Kennard to Fredric Rice <=-
BK> But what else was there to expect?.. but a message, and a hostile one,
BK> from you?
When you come in acting like an ass, you shouldn't get your knickers in
a twist when someone puts a bridle on you and tries to feed you a carrot.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Rice
|Sub: CLONES
|Date: 31 Mar 97 16:55:00
EID:c084 227f86e0
-=> Quoting David Rice to Harper <=-
DR> It was social ostracism that Shelley wrote of, not some
DR> "cloning of human beings." DNA had not been discovered
I think all the assignation of motives to Mary Shelley is a crock.
'Frankenstein' came out of a writing 'one-upsmanship' with Percy and
another guy who's name escapes me at the moment. Percy is remembered,
of course, for his poetry...but who remembers what he wrote that rainy
day in the way of prose?
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: David Rice
|Sub: ACCEPTING REALITY
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:02:00
EID:bee9 227f8840
-=> Quoting David Rice to Ken Wiens <=-
DR> contempt? Tell you about your mother? Tell you the truth
DR> about your cult? Admit I'm Jewish?
Tell him you had an abortion and are happy you did it.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Shelby Sherman
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 31 Mar 97 17:31:00
EID:efd7 227f8be0
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to George Harper <=-
SS> enough for you, or must I employ the Dreaded Purple Thunder Lizard to
SS> exercise his uvula in your general direction?
Now, Shelby! Don't the rest of us throw enough profanity at him without
you adding a uvula to it?
GH> I am NOT particularly impressed with your alleged education or
SS> Why don't you save the bandwidth and just shout "Is Not"?
He wants first hand evidence but not from anybody here. The boy's not
too bright.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 24/888 102/2 943 106/2000 109/7 112/101 114/262 271 124/1
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|From: Judith Bandsma
|To: Mark O'neill
|Sub: KEN YOUNG: POSTER CHILD
|Date: 01 Apr 97 06:28:00
EID:cb39 22813380
-=> Quoting Mark O'neill to Shelby Sherman <=-
MO> Also fundy based magazines out of China (companies will often contract
MO> printing houses there as costs are not as high) and the UK. A bit of
I did not know this. You mean the fundy masters, who scream about such
things as NAFTA and free trade with Canada, and get their flocks all
stirred up about their jobs being exported...you mean these people are
sending WORK out of the country to be done?
This is just too precious.
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
--- FLAME v1.1
* Origin: Chas Co Sheriff's Ofc wants *YOU*! Call 803-554-2498 (1:372/911)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:08:01
EID:1528 2283a100
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 f2a82201
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3342a5b9
On (02 Apr 97) Don Martin babbled to Marilyn Burge...
DM> Marilyn Burge said "Book" to Don Martin,
DM> adding:
DM> When I think about finding a publisher for a book "on
DM> HolySmoke" I shudder, but the _process_ of putting one
DM> together is exciting!
MB> ....and clearly shows just how lazy you really are. WE do all
MB> the writing; all you have to do is a bit of proofreading and
MB> compiling.
DM> Just when I have been fretting about the possibility of
DM> putting in too much Don Martin and not enough of everyone
DM> else, this comes as a reassurance: now, I can always say that
DM> Marilyn made me do it!
When the project gets to the place where you're looking for a
publisher, I suggest you notify Prometheus Books. That is the
publication arm of the AHA, and they carry such authors as
Ingersoll, Paine, and other freethinkers. They also carry _Why I
am not a Christian_ by Bertrand Russell. It seems to me that their
library is quite appropriate for the subject matter of your
project.
Just say "Marilyn snet me," and I'm sure you'll get all the
attention that name-dropping deserves.
... = Al Schroeder being condescending to a dyslexic.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 04 Apr 97 05:38:10
EID:0c57 22842cc0
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 ed3ca1c6
MB> The cost of testing every human being in this country alone
MB> makes your hare-brained scheme ill-advised.
RH> And how much is YOUR life worth?
It is priceless. But, then, so is my freedom.
RH> But no, I'm saying government should protect us from the
RH> criminally stupid, who run around spreading fatal illnesses.
MB> From which we have the ability to protect ourselves.
RH> Shall we fire the cops because you can protect your own life?
RH> Get rid of firemen because you can put out a fire?
It isn't the job of the police under our Constitution to protect
you from yourself. Nor is it their job to protect you from what
MIGHT happen. If it were, all adults would be preemptively
thrown into jail because they MIGHT harm a child. The job of the
police is to arrest people who have already committed a crime and
to leave those who simply MIGHT commit a crime entirely alone. In
fact, their job is to protect those who MIGHT commit a crime from
those who already have.
RH> These ARE government functions.
Nope.
RH> And that IS a proper function for government.
Nope. The government is here to SERVE the people, not to
preemptively lock them up because of what they MIGHT do.
MB> No, it isn't. It isn't the responsibility of Government
MB> to protect us from the hazards of everyday life, nor is
MB> it the responsibility of Government to protect us from
MB> our own stupidity.
RH> Not our own; other people's.
Nope. It is our job to protect ourselve from the stupidity
of others. AFTER that stupidity crosses the line and becomes
a criminal act, THEN AND ONLY THEN the government has the
power to step in a arrest the perpetrator, try them for the
crime they have already committed, and punish them for that
commission. Unless and until they actually commit that crime,
they are a free person.
Tuberculosis is a far, far more contagious disease than AIDS
is, and it is also fatal. Why aren't we testing everybody in
the US against their will for TB and locking up those who test
positive? (Incidentally: I test positive to TB, but I am not
contagious but have merely been exposed to the disease.) But
I am still among those who would be incarcerated under your
hare-brained scheme, if such a scheme were implemented. Shall
I turn myself in?
... Anyone can hate. It costs to love.
--- PPoint 2.00
* Origin: So What's Yer Point? (1:105/302.666)
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|From: Sean Coldren
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 02 Apr 97 04:01:06
EID:6eab 22822020
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A37B
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A348
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
Re: Court Records
> You would be right, except why would I be afraid of gays? Am I afraid
of you
> Hardly.. So how am I this fictional "homophobic?"
You may not be afraid of the person, but you are of the act. Or you
wouldn't have any problem with it. :)
I don't see why people have a problem with what other people do, or who
they do. For example.... if I knew somebody that did drugs, I wouldn't
hang
around the person. I'm not going to tell them what they are doing is wrong,
cause, like you said, who am I to say. Its there life, not mine, and
definitly not this "god" that people talk about.
Origin: The Hide-A-Way, Manheim, Pa 717-665-4094 (FidoNet 1:270/430)
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: FUNDY FROLICS 1/3
|Date: 02 Apr 97 20:51:11
EID:8d5f 2282a660
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A397
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> DH>> So is slavery ok?
>
> KY> If the slaves gave up their freedom willingly, and actually chose
to
> KY> be slaves,but only then.
>
> Since with the exception of Christian women, this has never in history
> been the case, it would seem you have higher morals even than Jesus. He
> never condemned the slavery that existed in his time, conquered people
> being bought and sold. I've always wondered why that was. Have you?
And how do you know it never happened? Just because you were never taught
that it happened?
People today are dependent on the govt. back then people were dependent
on
their slave owners. SOme could have chose this way, because they couldn't
handle responsibility, themselves. And this may be what the Bible is
speaking of when it is in favor of slavery.
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way FidoNet <-> VirtualNET Gateway (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Homosexuality
|Date: 02 Apr 97 20:53:46
EID:e8ea 2282a6a0
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A398
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> MG> I promised you evidence that homosexuality is not a disease.
> KY> Yes, you did. And I still am waiting. There is a difference between
> MG> "The American Psychiatry Association has removed
> MG> homosexuality from it's list of disorders...and has
> KY> And what do they base this on?
> Something that you are very unfamiliar with: Evidence.
I sure am, if you mean your definition of the word. I always thought
evidence was something that proved something to be true. But I do not see
how OPINIONS of anyone, could be considered to be evidence of anything except
that that is what they think.
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Sean Coldren
|Sub: Court Records
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:00:11
EID:208a 2282a800
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A399
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> > You would be right, except why would I be afraid of gays? Am I afraid
> > Hardly.. So how am I this fictional "homophobic?"
>
> You may not be afraid of the person, but you are of the act. Or you
> wouldn't have any problem with it. :)
Just because one has a problem with something, does not mean that they are
afraid of it.
> I don't see why people have a problem with what other people do, or
who
> they do. For example.... if I knew somebody that did drugs, I wouldn't
hang
> around the person. I'm not going to tell them what they are doing is
wrong,
> cause, like you said, who am I to say. Its there life, not mine, and
> definitly not this "god" that people talk about.
Actually, I believe it is your place to say. One does not want someone
else
to continue hurting themselves, like from something like drugs, so I feel
one
has an obligation to tell them how you feel. But not much more you can
do
than that.
It's their life, and they should have the legal right to do mostly what
they
want, but that is not going to get me to shut up. By the same token, one
doing something I disagree with, won't stop me from hanging out with them
either.
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Homosexuals Also Repr
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:11:26
EID:db48 2282a960
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A39A
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> This is a good question, and I would have to say for the most part,
they
> KY> don't. The only time is when growing up, some will do many
> KY> things to experiment. But once they are aware of who they
> KY> are, they generally do not do something they find
> KY> distasteful.
>
> Ah, so you admit that sexual orientation is innate?
>
> KY> ...but once they are aware of WHO THEY ARE, they generally...
>
> Thank you for your final admission in this case that you were
> wrong.
Nice try, but all I admit is they have discovered what they made themselves
become. And that they finally come to a point where they come to terms
with
what they THINK they are.
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycot
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:22:04
EID:9139 2282aac0
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A39B
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> RS> function? Why can't there be more than one function? Why is
> KY> RS> only ONE valid?
> KY> There is more than one function to sex, but there is one
> KY> primary one, that is above the rest.
> Now, don't backflip. You said that only *ONE TYPE OF SEX* is
> natural. Unless, of course, you are saying that homosexuality is
> natural, just that it has no procreative purpose.
> Then again, most heterosexual sex acts are the same --
> deliberately non-procreative.
No backflipping here. One type of sex is natural, and there are some purposes
to it, the biggest being procreation. And if a sexual act does not have
the
possibility of procreation, I would say it likely is unnatural.
> We provided citations. You have failed to read them I see.
> Would you like more citations? Or do you want to actually
> attempt to read the first batch of papers into the issue?
Apparently I did, or is it that no factual citations were given? I do not
want any stupid opinions. I want FACTS, if you claim they exist. If they
don't exist fine, we can debate this logically, just the same. But if you
claim to have facts, then facts are what I should be seeing.
> And, actually, I doubt that you are telling the truth about never
> seeing it. There was widespread TV coverage of those two octopii
> that were getting it on in a same-sex manner a few years back.
Believe what you want, I never heard of that news story, and I never saw
any
instance of animal homosexuality.
But I will be waiting, while you try to find it. Just a tip, though.
Probably would be best to use something other than The National Enquirer.
I have even seen different types of animals trying to have sex, but never
saw
any homosexual acts among animals.
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Cracker Barrel boycott
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:25:15
EID:ed50 2282ab20
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A39C
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> RS> Rod "...and remember to not enjoy sex next time you have it,
else
> KY> RS> you'll be being a hypocrite to your single-functioned purpose
of
> KY> RS> sex" Swift :)
> KY> As I said, there is more than one purpose to sex, but there
> KY> is one, more important than any other.
> So you admit that homosexuality has a purpose, just not the one
> you want.
> KY> Nope.. Enjoyment is one of the purposes, though much less
> KY> of a purpose than something like procreation.
> So you admit that homosexuality has a purpose. Thank you for
> your backflip on this issue.
Tsk, tsk.. Still haven't learned to read, I see. Just what did I say that
implies that homosexuality is a purpose? I mentioned sex having purposes,
not homosexuality. Or are you saying that all homosexuality is about is
sex?
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Homosexuals Also Repr
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:35:45
EID:db48 2282ac60
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A39D
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> Well, I doubt if I would be able to have homosexual sex even in
> KY> that type of situation.
> Why? What if someone was holding a gun to your head?
> KY> I wouldn't know for sure unless in that
> KY> situation, but I can be fairly certain. It is just too
> KY> disgusting for me to even consider.
> What if someone was holding a gun to your head?
> KY> If someone didn't have homosexual sex, it wouldn't mean
> KY> greed, but rather that they were willing to stand on
> KY> principle, no matter what.
> What if someone was holding a gun to your head?
> Rod "...would you change your mind?" Swift :)
Nope.. Even if someone had a gun to my head, I doubt if I would have
homosexual sex. If something goes against your principles so much, it might
not be so easy to break that.
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Driving Mr. Daisy
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:38:06
EID:6c13 2282acc0
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A39E
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> SS> What beef do you have against consenting adults who are
> KY> SS> breaking no laws and harming no one?
> KY> The only "beef" i have with them is that they are being very immoral...
> Evidence?
How can you show evidence whether anything is immoral or not?
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Driving Mr. Morality
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:40:31
EID:a763 2282ad00
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A39F
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> RC> Do you really think it is Christian bashing for one to say that
> KY> RC> Christianity is evil?
>
> KY> If they have reasoning behind it, probably not.
>
> So what is your reasoning for hating gays? What is your
> reasoning for lying about gays?
Please show me one time that I said I hate gays. I never said that, because
I don't. I hate what they do, not them personally.
And you keep on saying I am lying. First, what specific lies might they
be?
Second, why would I lie in the first place? WHat could I possibly achieve?
I don't even know you, so is there really any reason for lies?
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:49:31
EID:b146 2282ae20
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A3A0
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> As I have said before, you make yourself who you are today. So,
why
> KY> can't that include sexuality?
>
> Wait a minute here, Ken. You're contradicting yourself from the post I
> just replied to. You say you'd never be gay, and I believe you. But then
> you say gays make themselves that way.
>
> Which is it, Ken?
Try to explain how that is a contradiction. I would never be gay, but those
that do become gay, made themselves that way.
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Ken Young: Poster child
|Date: 02 Apr 97 21:51:59
EID:f357 2282ae60
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A3A1
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> Because they feel trapped in a lifestyle that they think they don't
> KY> have a choice about. They have been told there is no choice, so
they
> KY> believe that.
>
> KY> It is easy to open the eyes of the decieved? HArdly.. When one
is
> KY> convinced of something, it takes a lot to convince them otherwise.
>
> Huh? Gay teenagers kill themselves because they know people like you are
> out there.
No, they kill themselves because they feel trapped in a lifestyle that
likely they deep down know is wrong, and are so miserable that way, that
they
think suicide is the only answer.
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Freedom of choice
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:03:19
EID:b146 2282b060
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A3A2
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> Or to work WITH the difference, such as a deaf person learning sign
> language as opposed to trying to speak. A physically handicapped person
> recognizing that a wheelchair is better than his/her ability on
> crutches. Some differences/handicaps can't be overcome. I cannot
> overcome being 4'9" - I can't grow taller. I *can* recognize what
> choices I do not have at this height that a taller person would have.
> In the same way, a gay individual cannot change their orientation, but
> they can learn to accept it and work with it, just like I have learned
> how to use stepstools and am trying to learn how to alter clothes.
But if there was a chance, just a slight possibility that one could change
that difference, wouldn't they? If a deaf person found out about a possible
way, though a longshot of how they might hear, they likely would take it.
But height has to do with how you were physically made. Homosexuality has
more to do with feelings, which other events can sometimes alter, so just
because you can't change the rest, doesn;t mean you can't change sexual
orientation.
> KY> actually to at least some degree actually like pain.
> That is something that comes into sex for many people. Why do you think
> men like to sleep with virgin women? Because they know it will hurt her.
I suppose that is unfortunately true, though, I thought many liked that
more
for the supposed "conquest."
> KY> Well, not like it is anything to be ashamed of, so yes, I am a virgin.
> I'm not asking you to be ashamed, but maybe you should recognize that
> experience does change how one sees sex.
I do recognize that, but that does not mean knowing this is going to change
my
mind now, on it.
But, at the same time, experience doesn't always change who you are, and
one's
moral beliefs is a pretty big part of what someone is about.
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: J.J. needs to be Hitt
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:10:07
EID:dc27 2282b140
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A3A5
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> I would say yes to both things, as that is how it was intended to
be.
> KY> But that is not how it is today. Even back when I was in school,
I
> KY> saw people being stopped from praying by themselves, because that
> KY> would be against the
> KY> "seperation of church and state."
> No, Ken, you did not. There is no way that a teacher could stop someone
> from praying by themselves.
There was one, specifically I remember. A Mormon, who every time he had
a
Bible out and would read to himself, or would be praying to himself, would
be
stopped. He was praying to himself, but you could tell what he was doing.
Believe it or not, religious persecution happens quite a bit, and yes, to
those of Judeo Christian beliefs.
> KY> And actually, there was a Congressman, I think a year ago, that tried
> KY> to get school prayer back, but more like how you described it, where
> KY> the prayers would be rotated, in fairness.
> [rolling eyes] this is the most idiotic idea I have ever heard.
I most certainly agree, but one of these days, people like that may actually
get their way.
> KY> Yes, but it was also founded on Christian beliefs.
> Nope. Name one Christian belief it was founded on.
> Christians believe there is only one way to God.
> The Constitution allows each of us to choose our own way, or none.
One thing you will find throughout the Bible if you look, is the concept
of
liberty. That is probably the biggest principle that the founding fathers
were for, that was based on Christian principles.
Yes, Christians believe there is only one way, but that doesn't mean all
Christians want it to be the only way by law.
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Freedom Of Choice
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:13:02
EID:b146 2282b1a0
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A3A6
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> The best I could come up with before, was that since procreation
could
> KY> not come from it, the main purpose of sex could not be present, and
> KY> therefore it could be unnatural.
> What about me, Ken? I was born without the ability to bear children,
> thus every single time I have ever had sex that purpose was not present.
>
> Unnatural?
Wondered how long it be until someone mentioned this type of thing. Well,
it
isn't one doing it that can procreate that I say is unnatural. It is doing
a
type of sex that cannot have procreation as a result, that I would say is
unnatural.
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
* Origin: The Hide-A-Way FidoNet <-> VirtualNET Gateway (1:270/430)
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|From: Ken Young
|To: Karen Davis
|Sub: Accepting Reality
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:14:43
EID:4abc 2282b1c0
MSGID: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A3A7
PID: VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
> KY> Pity you have such a hard time reading. I said that the girl
> KY> shouldn't be executed, as 1) she may not know better, and 2) she
was
> KY> not the actual person doing the killing.
> But no chance that you'd understand that the best choice would be the
> abortion.
How do you know? Why wouldn't it be giving him/her up for adoption?
--- VFIDO 6.20.00 Gamma Candidate 10
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|From: Brad Kennard
|To: Dan Ceppa
|Sub: Re: Exemplifying examples
|Date: 03 Apr 97 22:35:00
EID:7b6b 2283b460
I always thought the Illuminati was a group that no longer existed... except
in the form of stories and novels by Robert Anton Wilson?
I also know Washington was in the masonic order... but not an Illuminati..
The man had wooden teeth!
--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: John Musselwhite
|Sub: CE
|Date: 03 Apr 97 21:14:00
EID:4f74 2283a9c0
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> It's both; the first number is zero.
JM> LOL! I'm quite used to thinking in terms of time, Roger. When
JM> calculating charges for clients "zero" is where I start. Once
JM> I've begun, "zero" is merely a reference. If I work half
JM> an hour I work from "zero" to a half-hour into the first hour,
JM> not from the zeroth hour to zero point five of the zeroth hour.
JM> Why? Because in human activities we rely on conventions to
JM> avoid confusion. This is one of those times were convention
JM> comes into force, otherwise all those zeroths would get
JM> in the way of clarity.
I still disagree, of course. Yes, I know that by convention there
is no zero year, but I still say the first number is zero. As
a matter of fact, it's labeled that way on 24 hour clocks. The
hours run from zero to 23, time is stated as 00:01 thru 23:59.
JM> Now... when using computers to calculate time "zero" may exist
JM> as you think, but computers are merely number crunchers. The
So is a person calculating time intervals.
JM> It's NOT "short" for that though. When discussing time the
JM> CONVENTION is that once the first year has begun we are in the
JM> FIRST year. You can argue all you want for a "zeroth" year, but
I don't. I say only that the first year is zero, even if we
choose to call it "one".
JM> not only does that go against established convention it is not
JM> logically valid. If we changed the scale from years to
JM> "lifetimes" you would not say that someone who was still alive was
JM> in their "zeroth" life, they were in their first.
First life; life zero. I'm in my 647th now
JM> That's not quite right, Roger. The Julian Day number was first
JM> proposed by J.J. Scaliger in 1583. He figured that the Epoch of
JM> the Julian Era should begin on January 1, 4713 BCE at noon.
JM> This was not from the "creation of the earth" but supposedly
JM> corresponded with the beginnings of some "ancient cycles" and
JM> was simply a remote enough reference point so other
JM> chronological systems could be compared to a "standard".
I'll accept that. I knew there was some silly reason for it .
... Don't hit me, Mr. Moderator... I'll go back on topic... I swear!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: George Harper
|Sub: SCIENTIFIC PROOF AVAI
|Date: 03 Apr 97 23:23:00
EID:fb14 2283bae0
-=> Quoting George Harper to All <=-
GH> In a couple of recent posts I stated the discovery - over 20 years ago
GH> - of
GH> an "anomaly" in the general flow of time, as mathematically measured
GH> by the
GH> ephemeral data collection computers at one of the labs charged with
GH> developing
GH> guidance systems for "space" vehicles.
What you are describing is simply a hoax. Do you have a source for it?
GH> One of the respondants stated that the "stars could be traced back
GH> MATHEMATICALLY"...
They can, but there is a limit to the accuracy of such programs.
We have a pretty limited sample to work from after all.
GH> Since I claim that there are two instances in the Bible where God
GH> manipulated
GH> time, I will use these statements /above\ to support my claim
GH> scientifically.
GH> Unless one of the more erudite among you can provide scientific data
GH> to prove that the stated anomaly in the structure of time does NOT
GH> exist, I suggest that you who choose to deny the existence of God
GH> begin to seek a hiding place; My evidence proves that time was
GH> manipulated, meaning that
GH> there HAS to be a Being capable of DOING a feat of such magnitude!
You're dead before you start, basing your argument on a known
lie.
The author was a preacher of some sort IIRC.
GH> Okay, folks, the ball is in your court....you can rant, rave, foam at
GH> the mouth, whirl about as good little demons do when caught out,
GH> etc...BUT, you have only two choices
GH> * Admit that I am correct, and then begin praying for forgiveness;
or
Hahahahahahahah!!!
GH> * Follow the stars back mathematically some connections that will be able to at least provide the
GH> computational equipment for such a task, if not the expertise to use
GH> that equipment; Or maybe Richard Smith has another friend at NASA
GH> also [I would eminently
GH> prefer that Richard were the one to do the research or at least
GH> co-ordinate
GH> said research...he has given his assurance of objectivity, and I
GH> believe that to be sincere]>.
Consider this; according to the original story, they were running
the program backward (in time) and it hung up, indicating a missing
day.
Anyone who knows anything about computers knows this is silly. The
program would have no way of recognising such a thing and we would have
no way of checking on it in any case (no data that old).
YO, RICHARD! I can probably come up with a reference on this if you
really need it for anything so patently absurd.
... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1997
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: George Harper
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 04 Apr 97 02:35:29
EID:6681 22841460
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f829aca
TID: GE 1.1+
SS> If _you_ claim that hell exists, then you get to provide the evidence.
SS> Do you have any?
> Removing "kid" gloves:
> You stupid, asinine blowhard! Why don't you stop frothing at the
> mouth,
> and read what you are writing? You contradict yourself twice in three
FR> [...ranting Christanic lunacy cut...]
FR> Do you always revert to an illiterate rant when faced with an
FR> embarrassing question, George? And shouldn't your resentment and anger
FR> be telling you a little something about the viability of your occult
FR> beliefs?
What Resentment? What Anger? Because I called Shelby a "naughty name"?
If you, and the others writing in opposition to Christianity, can use the
tactic to illustrate a point, or to indicate emphasis for a point, surely
you can be gracious enough to extend the same privlege to supporters of
Christianity. Quit you whining and let Shelby get back to trying to explain
the contradictions I pointed out in the part of the post you omitted.
... Sorry, the Dog ate my Blue Wave packet.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: George Harper
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: Re: Educational Experienc
|Date: 04 Apr 97 02:35:30
EID:b6d8 22841460
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f829acb
TID: GE 1.1+
KW> Shelby Sherman, within the last day or so, posted said evidence. If
KW> you're not smart enough to be able to read and comprehend them don't
KW> blame anyone but yourself.
The only post I received from Shelby was seriously flawed. He contradicted
himself three times in two sentences...I'm still waiting for him to explain
how he managed that feat on a topic he is allegedly expert in.
... Answers: $1, Short: $5, Correct: $25, dumb looks are still free.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: George Harper
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 04 Apr 97 02:35:31
EID:772b 22841460
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f829acc
TID: GE 1.1+
GH> GH> I admit the statistical odds appear overwhelming. If you believe
you
GH> GH> odds are better than mine...show me the math! I dare you!
GH> SS> It's not his burden to show you the math, you logical train wreck.
I
GH> SS> is the burden of the individual making the _positive assertion_
to
GH> SS> provide convincing evidence to support their claim.
NOTE: I was NOT making a claim, thus I have nothing to provide evidence
to support. I do ask the original author to provide evidence IF HE makes
the positive assertion that his odds are better than mine...stupidity thus
is shown in Shelby's reply (or a nicer term: miscomprehension is shown)
GH> SS> If _you_ claim that hell exists, then you get to provide the evidence
GH> SS> Do you have any?
Actually, on the surface, this IS sound reasoning. Had I made that claim
(he said IF, not SINCE), I could be expected to provide evidence. Thus,
although it is MY BELIEF that Hell does exist, I shall reserve stating that
cl
until after Shelby can see, and feel, the evidence first hand...simpler
that
way...
GH>Removing "kid" gloves:
GH> You stupid, asinine blowhard! Why don't you stop frothing at the mouth,
GH> and read what you are writing? You contradict yourself twice in three
GH> sentences, yet dare to intimate that *I* am the ignorant one? Buzz
off
GH> butthead.
KW> He doesn't have to 'dare to intimate' your ignorance--you demonstrate
KW> that with every post that you make.
IF pointing out his self-contradictory ramblings is ignorance, I'll accept
the mantle, then pass it on to you...you are doing essentially the same
thing, and thus prove yourself ignorant by your own measure.
GH> FYI: "he" is the one making the positive assertion, which is evident
if
GH> you read the post you are commenting on (you MUST be able to read,
becau
GH> you have the generic answers/comebacks down pat). Therefore, it *IS*
up
to
GH> him to provide the evidence to support HIS claim. Your contradiction
KW> lies
GH> in the assertion that it is NOT his duty, then turning around and provin
GH> it IS his duty! The second contradiction is in telling me I have to
KW> supply
GH> the evidence to refute HIS positive claim that Hell does NOT exist
KW> Idiot child, "he" isn't the one making a positive claim here. If you
Ignorant twit, including a negative word fails to change the polarity of
the claim. His assertion that Hell is unreal is a positive claim. Thus
the
onus of ignorance can pass to you once again, and the burden of providing
supportive evidence is still squarely on "HIS" shoulders.
KW> want anyone to take your ravings seriously, cough up some evidence
KW> that your sun baked hallucinations have any bearing on reality.
Now you're getting the hang of it! Make the "other guy" the one who is
stating a positive claim. However, you still leave yourself open by
including a descriptive qualifier: it becomes your positive assertion
that any hallucinations are "sun-baked", requiring that you prove my
beliefs false for anyone but me. Dabbling in semantics is a slippery
adventure...don't enter the arena without bringing all the tools...
GH>Now you, and your legion of co-vultures can flame me for daring to respond
GH>in kind to your provocations. Another FYI: I "have" turned the other
GH>cheek, repeatedly. I am even being reserved in the vitriole I throw
back
GH>you. The harshest word used is the epithet `butthead', but you have
GH> proven that it is appropriate.
KW> Enjoying your spanking, are you? What is it about you xtians and your
KW> insatiable need to have your cheeks turned a nice glowing shade of
KW> deep rose?
Oh, Gads! I'm caught out! Are you enjoying administering the spanking?
I do hope so, because we COULD make a habit of this....hehehehe
KW> And I'm not a vulture, I'm a harpy. Aren't you capable of getting any
KW> fact more than half right.
What *IS* a "harpy"? I always thought it was a female vulture. Not
being an onitologist, nor having any interest in the field, I am quite
possibly mistaken. Would you care to enlighten me please? And then
you can spank me again!!!! I'm SOOOO naughty!
... (hic) BWave 2.10 (hic) BWave 2.10 * My computer is drunk ...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: George Harper
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 04 Apr 97 02:35:32
EID:83a4 22841460
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f829acd
TID: GE 1.1+
GH> GH> Don't hold your breath! you aren't going to get rid of me that
GH> GH> easily... and my ego is worth bustling in with...
GH> SS> Oh, you will, bruised, debunked and bleeding, fleeing to the sanctity
GH> SS> and safety of a hard disk crash.
GH>You again?! Go away! And don't threaten me! The only way my disk
is
GH>going to crash is by external tampering...AND that won't keep me out
of
KW> here,
GH>because this reader and my mailer can run without the hard drive! Besides
GH>I doubt that you would be willing to spend the money to "crash"mail me
a
GH>virus, which IS the only way you can get to my hard drive. Can you
say
GH>"Federal Offense"?
KW> LOL!! LOL!! LOL!!
KW> You really are out of your depth in here, aren't you? Scream a little
KW> louder, jump up and down a little higher, turn a little redder in
KW> the face--you just might impress someone with your histrionics.
Actually, I thought I handled that quite well, thank you! I was laughing
at Shelby...what's the matter, you afraid of him? He's as easy to laugh
at as you are, with all your pretentiousness...
In case you didn't understand my positive claim: I WILL *NOT* be run off
by the likes of Shelby, Marty Leipzig, Richard Smith, or even Don Martin.
Given those impressive persona failing to scare me away, what makes you
think YOU can succeed? (Oh, NO!...not that! Please! I *NEED* those
spankings) hehehehehehehehehehe
... What do you mean? You actually read this Tagline?!?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: George Harper
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 04 Apr 97 02:35:33
EID:54d5 22841460
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f829ace
TID: GE 1.1+
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> As soon as you prove I do not hold a promissory note for $1 million
RH> signed by you and now overdue. Pay up!
GH> *IF* I indeed signed it, it will be possible to prove in a court of
GH> law. With a million dollars at stake, surely you don't mind paying off
GH> some poor beknighted soul to perjure himself to attest to the
GH> authenticity of my signature. However, what will you do about the
GH> demand for finger print identification??? Or did you work for the
GH> Arvada Police Department
RH> But George, you're asking me to prove I have it. I asked you to prove
RH> I DON'T.
RH> Big difference, which is the point I was making.
I have to prove that you don't have a document that can't possibly exist?
OoooKay! My evidence is that the signature on such a document, being a
forgery by one who has never met me, let alone seen anything I have signed,
is false, and to verify my proof, all that is needed is to present it
at my bank for a comparison of signatures. Oh, and you get to pay the
charge for the comparison, since you are challenging my evidence.
It's been so long, and there have been almost 500 messages in my personal
mail-box...I no longer recall who, or what got this thread started.
If I promise to quietly acquiesce, can we go on to a new topic? I am
willing to stipulate -have already done so, actually- that I cannot back
up
my claim of evidence about the Flood fossils, nor the Ark. In the case
of the Ark, I was basing my assumption on the specious claims of others.
According to available evidence, this may also be the case with the fossils.
I can only plead loss of contact with the instructor in question, and
insufficiency in my note taking. The class WAS at Metro State College
in Denver, in Spring,1978. It was an entry level introduction to geology
taken solely to meet the science requirement for my B.AS. in Helping Services.
... But soft, what light through yonder tagline breaks?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
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|From: George Harper
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CLONES
|Date: 04 Apr 97 02:35:34
EID:9820 22841460
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f829acf
TID: GE 1.1+
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> ... Don't worry - Cthulhu LIKES your sense of humor.
GH> I *AM* aware of that...he is one of my Co-SysOp's...tho even HE has
GH> given up hope of teaching YOU the finer points of basic theistic
GH> dogma.
RH> Don't worry about it. I'm well versed in your mythology.
Dang! I had hoped to bait you a bit more with that statement about Cthulhu
being my Co-SysOp...darn!
... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
* Origin: (1:104/447)
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|From: George Harper
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 04 Apr 97 02:35:35
EID:79f9 22841460
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f829ad0
TID: GE 1.1+
-=> Quoting George Harper to Roger Hunter <=-
GH> The UNDERSTANDING of science has changed, perhaps, but NOT the
GH> science itself...
RH> Perhaps you mean the methods do not change? But the theories
RH> certainly change, to accomodate new information.
GH> And I'm retired from the U.S. Air Force...but *I* never "flew" a
GH> plane, altho I have operated a few computers.
RH> It's a large organization.
GH> I visited the `quake center, and my grandchildren were duly impressed
GH> by all the pretty flashing lights! What a marvelous skill it must
be
GH> to be able to make all those light bulbs flash at random intervals!
GH> One thing escapes me, though...what IS their connection to reality?
RH> Oh, I'm sure you did not understand that .
GH> If USGS is so "UP" on things geologic and seismologic, why weren't the
GH> people in Los Angeles better warned about the Monster Quake about 3
GH> years ago??? BEFORE
GH> your boss had to be told about it by the media calling for data?
RH> Damn, you really are ignorant, aren't you.
RH> Quakes can't be predicted yet. We know pretty much WHERE but not
RH> WHEN they will happen.
RH> And it takes time to locate one from seismogram readings, whereas
RH> anyone IN one knows it has happened immediately.
GH> Look at Roger Blush!!! Is THAT why you retired??? Gee, I'm
GH> Sorry!!!
RH> Yes, you are.
Okay, I'll `fess up...I DO know the purpose and function of the "dancing"
lights...they are a visual representation of the reports generated by the
sensory implants scattered beneath the surface [at varying depths] all
around the earth. I am sincerely astonished at the magnitude of data
you, and the other personnel collecting seismic data, are able to display
in a very concise, organized and easily understood pattern.
I was also impressed by your knowledge...I believe you were our tour guide,
or one of them, at any rate.
The huge drums with the plotters show an awfully scary pattern at times,
also.
See, I did pay attention, and even do recall some of the "spiel"...
Now, I will add my apology for poking fun at you. BUT..I don't EVER
intend to admit that your "IOU" is real, let alone printed, or written down.
I doubt you care enough to take the effort.
... The OFFICIAL tagline of the 1996 Olympics!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- mil failte, caraid
* Origin: (1:104/447)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Bill Gates
|Date: 03 Apr 97 23:16:13
EID:aae8 2283ba00
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 77f006a2
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e0c1f69
On Apr 02 13:27 97, Fredric Rice of 1:218/890@FidoNet wrote:
FR>> Washington Monument, he informed us, is 555 tall. Put a one
FR>> in front of that and you get the year 1555.
FR>> Yeah, I know, I was impressed, too.
jjh>> I'd be even more impressed if I had some idea
jjh>> what was so special about the year 1555.
FR> I _think_ it was the year that either MLK or "Malcome X"
FR> created the so-called "Nation of Islam."
Neither created the Nation of Islam. MLK was an Xian.
Bruddah Malcom was a follower of the guy (Elijah Mohammed)
who stole the Nation of Islam cult from it's founder (Wally
Fahrad). Elijah M. most likely arranged the murders of both
Malcolm X and Fahrad.
Either way the 1555 date is either in the distant past or
the distant future (depending on wether you use the Xian or
Islamic calendar).
FR> During the lengthy speech, the racist made a great many
FR> astrological, occult statements dealing heavilly with
FR> numerology. He's also a UFO nut.
Now wouldn't that be a hoot... suppose the Heaven's Gate nutballs
were right and there was a UFO that you could teleport to by
killing yourself...
They get on board the craft only to find it's run by the Nation
of Islam and Ofays aint welcome.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: J.J. Hitt
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: News Article
|Date: 04 Apr 97 04:27:12
EID:808e 22842360
MSGID: 1:106/9788.2 77f2cfd6
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 33442dfc
On Apr 03 16:49 97, Don Martin of 1:261/1000 wrote:
JK>> Marl T. Geipizy, head of geology at Turkey's Bzurkturk
JK>> University, estimates the age of the 'cross' at more than
JK>> 1800 years.
JH>> Bezerk Turk University?!?!
DM> You don't see a Marty Leipzig possibility anagrammed into
DM> that department head?*
Our innocent little Marty?
Perish the thought.
Four more years! - Live with it!
--- Msgedsq 2.2e
* Origin: Saint Elmo's Fire Hydrant (Houston) (1:106/9788.2)
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|From: Dan Ceppa
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 01 Apr 97 12:13:07
EID:176a 228161a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:123/67.5 3340fbd3
-> On 30 Mar 97 16:42:00, Doug Schwandt got back to Judith Bandsma
JB>Laurie SAID (which you would have seen if you'd bothered) that he toured
JB>Mt. St. Helens with FORMER PRESIDENT Harry Truman.
JB>When reminded of the fact that by the time that mountain was a danger,
JB>Truman (pres-type) had been dead for a decade, Laurums backed off.
DS> Have you ever heard of "tongue in cheek?"
Have you ever heard the expression, "Having your ass handed to you"?
Stand in line for yours. Laurie is first in the queue.
... "There is a born-again fooled every minute." PT Barnum
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: North West Corner of Nowhere (1:123/67.5)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: Crucifixion of Christians
|Date: 04 Apr 97 09:54:38
EID:57e6 22844ec0
MSGID: 1:123/67 3344d084
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e0c1f5a
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
02 Apr 97 12:29, quoting Fredric Rice to Shelby Sherman:
ss>> Crucifixions Mark Good Friday in Philippines
ss>> Friday, March 28, 1997 5:10:00 PM EST
ss>> CUTUD, Philippines (Reuter) - Devout Christians had themselves
ss>> nailed to wooden crosses while others beat their own backs with
ss>> whips in a bloody re-enactment of Jesus Christ's crucifixion on
ss>> Good Friday nearly 2,000 years ago.
FR> It's a damn shame they don't nail themselves up for a month by the
FR> millions. It's also a damn shame they usually breed.
It is interesting to note that none of these xtian fools opted to take the
spike through the feet.
I guess there is just something about a bone-crushing, tendon-ripping,
permanently-crippling spike throught the feet that really test the ole
religion, eh?
They must not have had a Real True Crucifixation.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Fredric Rice
|Sub: UFO Suicide Cult
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:04:20
EID:b3c6 22845080
MSGID: 1:123/67 3344d255
REPLY: 1:218/890@FidoNet 2e0c1f78
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
02 Apr 97 15:21, quoting Fredric Rice to Ken Young:
ky>> Maybe that is because in Guyana, it
ky>> wasn't just suicide. Many were murderered.
FR> I'll be fucked with a chalk board! You're right, Ken! And you
FR> brought up something I totally forgot about!
FR> Another thing which makes these Christians different, aside from the
FR> total lack of firearms, is the fact that they didn't drag their
FR> children with them.
They did find a cache of weapons in a mini-storage rented by them.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:08:54
EID:88ef 22845100
MSGID: 1:123/67 3344d3bf
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org 64b6db23
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
02 Apr 97 21:27, quoting Katherine Wintersnight to George Harper:
GH> SS>> Oh, you will, bruised, debunked and bleeding, fleeing to the
GH> SS>> sanctity and safety of a hard disk crash.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GH>> You again?! Go away! And don't threaten me! The only way my
GH>> disk is going to crash is by external tampering...AND that won't
GH>> keep me out of here, because this reader and my mailer can run
GH>> without the hard drive! Besides I doubt that you would be willing
GH>> to spend the money to "crash"mail me a virus, which IS the only way
GH>> you can get to my hard drive. Can you say "Federal Offense"?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn the Fido Demons....I never got his hysterical, paranoid original.
KW> LOL!! LOL!! LOL!!
Really....
KW> You really are out of your depth in here, aren't you?
The understatement of the month.
KW> Scream a
KW> little
KW> louder, jump up and down a little higher, turn a little redder in
KW> the face--you just might impress someone with your histrionics.
A 24 carat moron, for sure.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Harry Truman.
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:37:00
EID:aba2 228364a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 34520e71
-=> Quoting Laurie Appleton to John Brawley <=-
LA> If you were in any way reasonable then you will know that
LA> there are several styles of debates. Some are performed in
LA> university situations to help students learn to look at both
LA> sides of a question. Some are put on as entertainment on TV
LA> and other media and some are are between persons who are
LA> interested in the facts and the truth and whose training
LA> equips them to deal with the subject.
And the Cretionist/Evolution debates your so find of talking about were
a
hybrid. The Creationist involved was using type 2 tactics (entertainment)
while the real scientist involved thought it was supposed to be a type 3
(truth seeking) debate.
LA> Your efforts to confuse this issue, stems no doubt, from
LA> your embarassment at finding how pathetic your heroes turned
LA> out to be.
Of course, it is absurd to put any significance on the outcome of these
debates in any case. At least that's what YOU said:
LA> You seem to have some absurd idea that which ever one
LA> wins a "one-off" debate proves their case.
So why do you keep bringing them up?
Take care.
... In the long run men hit only what they aim at. (Thoreau)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.09.05 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: Rick Mcfarlane
|To: J.C. Kibler
|Sub: News Article
|Date: 03 Apr 97 14:42:00
EID:bfa4 22837540
SPTH: Fidonet#1:222/10 :343/108
MSGID: 1:222/10@Fidonet 34520e81
-=> Quoting J.C. Kibler to All <=-
Good morning, Richard.
JK> Reposted without permission
JK> This was found on the Science echo
JK> REUTERS, March 31, 1997
JK> HEADLINE: TRUE CROSS OF CHRIST FOUND IN GOZAN HEIGHTS
JK> By C. Edward Kent
JK> JERUSALEM -- The true cross of Christ, used to crucify the leader of
JK> the Christian movement two thousand years ago, has been found at an
JK> archaeological dig in the Gozan Heights, roughly 238 kilometres north
JK> east of Jerusalem, at the ancient site of the Biblical city of El Y
JK> Mhoosk (Eli Muusk). Head dig team archaeologist Gerrold Gantbim will
JK> release information on the find to the press at a dawn news conference
JK> tomorrow in Jerusalem,
Let's see now. A news conference tomorrow morning, in an article dated
March 31. And you thought I was dumb.
I liked the way you worked Marty and Al and Gwenny into it:
JK> Marl T. Geipizy, head of geology at Turkey's Bzurkturk
JK> The site is near the mountain of Al Zhrodr, named in the Koran as the
JK> Genwyn D. Hoop, an American antiquities specialist with no
Maybe I'm still a bit dense, though, because I can't figure out who
Gerrold Gantbim and Havil tad Midon are supposed to be.
Well done!
Take care.
... They jest at scars that never felt a wound. (Shakespeare)
--- AdeptXBBS v1.09.05 (Registered)
* Origin: The DogStar BBS Soo Ont. Canada 705-942-8370 (1:222/10)
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|From: George Harper
|To: Roger Hunter
|Sub: Re: SCIENTIFIC PROOF AVAI
|Date: 04 Apr 97 12:21:26
EID:be25 228462a0
MSGID: 1:104/447 2f8c5dd4
TID: GE 1.1+
On 03 Apr 97 23:23:00, Roger Hunter said the following to George Harper:
RH> What you are describing is simply a hoax. Do you have a source for it?
YOUR claim...YOUR proof...(echo standard policy)
RH> GH> One of the respondants stated that the "stars could be traced back
RH> GH> MATHEMATICALLY"...
RH> They can, but there is a limit to the accuracy of such programs.
RH> We have a pretty limited sample to work from after all.
This limitation is a recent development? it was not mentioned in the original
assertion...
RH> You're dead before you start, basing your argument on a known
RH> lie.
Again, your claim...still your responsibility to prove that the information
I pointed out is false.
RH> The author was a preacher of some sort IIRC.
Is that what you call proof that my source is a hoax or a lie? It begins
to wear thin. #1, you haven't proven the information I alluded to was
false; #2, you haven't substantiated the claim that it was authored by
"a preacher of some sort"; and #3, the authorship of some article by
a preacher of some sort is hardly scientific evidence...it doesn't even
apply...you have no idea of what you're talking about. I worked in a
substantially similar occupation for a couple of years, and I am aware that
the limitations you quote to evade answering my initial claim do not exist.
I will stipulate that the computer cannot recognize an event of the type
I spoke of...that's why the engineers are there...to evaluate and interpret
the data the computers collect. You might say "any idiot knows that",
but then you didn't say that, did you?
I REPEAT:\/
RH> GH> Okay, folks, the ball is in your court....you can rant, rave, foam
at
RH> GH> the mouth, whirl about as good little demons do when caught out,
RH> GH> etc...BUT, you have only two choices
RH> GH> * Admit that I am correct, and then begin praying for forgiveness;
or
RH> GH> * Follow the stars back mathematically GH> some connections that will be able to at least provide the
RH> GH> computational equipment for such a task, if not the expertise to
use
RH> GH> that equipment; Or maybe Richard Smith has another friend at NASA
RH> GH> also [I would eminently
RH> GH> prefer that Richard were the one to do the research or at least
RH> GH> co-ordinate
RH> GH> said research...he has given his assurance of objectivity, and
I
RH> GH> believe that to be sincere]>.
RH> Consider this; according to the original story, they were running
RH> the program backward (in time) and it hung up, indicating a missing
RH> day.
RH> Anyone who knows anything about computers knows this is silly. The
RH> program would have no way of recognising such a thing and we would have
RH> no way of checking on it in any case (no data that old).
RH>
RH> YO, RICHARD! I can probably come up with a reference on this if you
RH> really need it for anything so patently absurd.
You better ask for it, Richard...it IS his claim, make HIM prove it...
I doubt that he can get at the official government records of the era,
(most are still highly classified) but I'd be interested to see them.
I assure you, I *WILL* recognize their authenticity, and if you can get
them
Roger, I will drive to Arvada to see them...
Now, go look for the evidence
--- mil failte, caraid
* Origin: (1:104/447)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Book Specimen 3
|Date: 04 Apr 97 14:25:05
EID:339a 22847320
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 33455dd2
The further adventures of me, in which our hero ponders the
difficulty of getting good help, even if one happens to be omni*.
Part of the first paragraph appeared in the last installment:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And there was another strength arising from this job: to
be a printer is to lose any notion that because something
is "in black and white" it is, somehow, the TRVTH. Printers
know that stuff gets into black and white because somebody
has paid them to put it there: the only way to tell the
bullshit from the genuine is to read it. They know this
because all of them print a certain quantity of bullshit,
the substance of which forms the basis for jokes and
discussion in the shop. Sometimes the BS was harmless
pornography (a good deal harder to come by in the days
before the invention of the xerox); once set in type,
"naughty" pieces like "George Takes Up Golf" or a rather
prescient "hold harmless precoital agreement" tended to
remain in type for years, tied with string and tucked away
on a flat beneath one of the composing stones. Usually BS
was regular advertising for auto sales or politicians:
proofreading the texts of speeches gives you a good handle
on the use of weasel words. Very occasionally, we had
something religious, and it was one of these that moved me
from a mild generalized dislike of Christians to a more
active revulsion.
Neither I nor anyone else in the shop knew his name, but
that was not a necessity for doing business: he paid in
cash; he always wore the same black leather jacket with John
3:16 painted in black letters on a painted white rectangle
on the back, and he wanted a four-page tract printed as
cheaply as possible--dense linotype text on newsprint.
(Craft note: for such things, you print all four pages on
one side of sheets twice a big as the final piece, let the
stack dry a bit, turn it over and print the same pages on
the back. Cut the stack in half, and you have two stacks of
four-pagers.) For this job I was feeding large sheets of
thin, floppy paper. Because the text was so dense, the ink
tries to pull the sheets off the platen, so an intricate
network of strings is rigged down the white spaces to hold
the paper in place. (Craft note: you feed a platen press by
putting your hands into its chomping maw for every sheet, a
process that takes some getting used to; leave a hand in too
long by getting it caught on such rigging, and you _will_
need a new glove size on that side.) From time to time, you
would catch your finger in that web and displace the strings
or rip out pieces entirely trying to escape. You must then
stop to re-rig or you'll be printing white string shadows
across the copy. (Craft note: when feeding a platen press,
the smaller and stiffer the stock is, the faster the run.) I
routinely ran business cards at 1,200 per hour, and I once
peaked at 1,800 to see whether I could. Nine by twelve inch
newsprint was another matter entirely: I was lucky to get
out 400 in an hour. For our shop, a big job was over 2,000
copies of anything other than the newspaper itself; this guy
wanted 50,000. I thought I would never get done with it--or
him.
He was passing the things out for free, of course, to
whoever would take them, so he came in daily for whatever I
had worked off, croaking inanities about doing the work of
the Lord, reading copies at random to make sure none of the
spellings had changed, standing at my side to watch me feed
the press or cut the sheets--this was in the days before
insurance liability issues kept people out from underfoot in
the shop--and he stank. You did not have to have him
alongside you to know that; you could literally smell him
coming. He had not taken a bath, apparently, during the
Roosevelt administration, and having started a notable
tradition (long before there was a Guinness Book to take note
of it), continued the practice through those of Truman and
Eisenhower. I began to suspect that his jacket was not
really leather, but simply stitched together (and painted
with John 3:16) of raw skin that had lost its hair in the
process of rotting off a dead horse. I began to notice that
not only was the jacket always the same, so was everything
else he wore, and it got washed every bit as often as he
did. It must be very difficult to pass out so many pieces of
paper designed to bring folks to the Lord without ever
having the opportunity to baptize anybody.
Since that time, I have generally taken very good care
to avoid the proximity of such persons--until I arrived on
HolySmoke. While one cannot, of course, _smell_ the
participants of a computer echo, the bare words on the
screen are practically a CAT-scan of the way their minds
work: the thoughts of many Christians there can best be
described as the verbal analogy of stench. Some are so very
revolting in their nastiness that I cannot bear to read
their posts and filter them out. For nearly half a century,
all this has made me wonder why any god supposedly
possessing omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence (in
computerese, omni*) should be so fatally drawn to the
stagnant end of the human gene pool in the matter of
recruiting spokespersons: punishment for some naughty past
universe, perhaps?
After high school, I was quite ready to leave home, but
it was harder to leave the printshop: I had done a lot of
growing up there. Still, I had been accepted at a college
(Western Washington State in Bellingham) and I was
determined to go. For the first time, I did some serious
studying of the nature of religion in general in philosophy
courses and on the nature of one in particular in a notable
literature course on Greek mythology. I was struck by the
contrast in tolerance and humanity between monotheism and
polytheism. However much they may have been willing to come
to blows over women, gold, and such trifles as the economic
control of the Mediterranean Basin, polytheists tend not to
become zealots. They do not kill others in the name of their
gods, nor even over such weighty matters as theological
arguments over the divine order of preference. Monotheists,
on the other hand, have a long record of settling theological
disputes by offing the leaders of the minority position
(called "heretics" for procedural convenience),
and do not flinch from imposing their views by force upon
the disaffected. Proselytizing monotheists may find great
favor in the eyes of their god, but they make lousy
neighbors.
It is often said of college that it makes atheists of
freshmen, but it did not in my case. I was already an
atheist when I arrived; my freshman year helped me begin to
understand what it meant to be an atheist.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: KEN YOUNG
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 03 Apr 97 08:40:00
EID:a666 22834500
Christopher and Ken were killing time yakking about FREEDOM OF CHOICE:
CH> Meant to be? By whom? And since the implicit answer to
CH> that question in your
CH> case is a being whose (non)existence I find irrelevant anyway, what
makes
CH> you think I care about your conclusions based upon it?
KY> Well, if you didn't care, I have no idea why you are replying to my
KY> posts. But, as to why isn;t it meant to be, what would the main purpose
KY> of other forms of sex be?
What is the purpose of sex for older people past the age of having children?
(Or do you find THAT 'disgusting' too?) The main purpose of other forms
of
sex as well as that of intercourse is the giving and receiving of pleasure
which, in a loving relationship enhances the closeness of the participants.
This need not even be taken apart from the concept of God, Ken. If God
created
us, he created us without any sort of seasonal "heat" phase as is common
among other animals - we don't feel 'horny' just when its time to procreate,
but yearround, lifelong. And our bodies are designed to feel pleasure from
sexual stimulation, an urge strong enough that even the most self-denying
religious type will acknowledge is there and that it requires UNnatural
acts
of will to avoid.
Now, Ken....why would God wire our bodies to desire and be able to take
pleasure in many varieties of sexual activities, lifelong, if the primary
purpose were merely procreation? And why does that bond act so strongly
to
forging intimacy between the partners that your own scripture likens it
to
becoming "one body"?
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Sexual stimulation only feels good if you do it...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: ! another for the FAQ
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:36:00
EID:8005 22835c80
Fredric and Steve were killing time yakking about ! another for the FAQ:
Hey Don! Per your book:
FR> But K. Y. Jelly won't be around in a year to get his nose rubbed in
the
FR> fact that everyone is still right here where we've been since time began.
SQ> If we're lucky, we'll get another "I'm shaking the dust off of my
SQ> feet" post, or perhaps a "Brothers and sisters, let's do what we can
SQ> to get rid of HOLYSMOKE once and for all."
A collection of impassioned goodbye messages would make interesting reading.
Especially those that follow up a commitment to stay forever and convert
the
entire echo. (G)
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
... "A committee is a life form with six or more legs and no brain." L.
Long
---
* TLX v4.10 *
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: SHELBY SHERMAN
|Sub: "Sexually Challenged"
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:38:00
EID:ee50 22835cc0
Lynda and Shelby were killing time yakking about "Sexually Challenged":
SA>> The only way gay men are sexually challenged is that they, like
SA>> straight women, have to suffer through dating men. :)
LB> ROTFL!!!!!!
SS> Yeah....well, I tell you what, living with a woman in her late
SS> forties ain't no picnic either.
*chuckle* Well, you could always trade her in on a gay male..... ;)
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ "Okay Andrew... Puns at twenty paces!" -- Chuckles
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: ROGER HUNTER
|Sub: 'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:40:00
EID:f428 22835d00
John and Roger were killing time yakking about 'FIRST CAUSE' CRAP:
-=> Quoting John Brawley to Richard Smith <=-
JB> Only 'zero' is an absence-of indicator, as "athiesm" is an indicator
JB> of absence of theism (pro -OR- con).
RH> Gone a week and nothing has changed.
A WEEK?! I first put the Zero discussion into my Hot Topics section back
in
early FEBRUARY - and THAT after it had already gone on long enough to be
absurd.
I'm ready to throw it over into the Ongoing favorite subjects area...
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ Security, confine Ensign Brawley to the brig.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: DARRYL GONZALEZ
|Sub: [1/2] ...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:47:00
EID:bb0c 22835de0
>>> Part 1 of 2...
Richard and Darryl were killing time yakking about ...:
RS> Thanx for playing, though. Here's a copy of the home game.
DG> You've just been gonged, Richard. Here are some facts for you:
DG> 1. The Bible has been shown, time and again, to be at the very least
DG> a reliable record of ancient history. Many of the events recorded
Any ancient text is a 'reliable' record of the thinking of the culture that
produced it. It has NOT been shown that the fantastic tales presented there
are nonfictional.
DG> therein are also recorded in works by other ancient historians,
DG> including (but not limited to) Josephus. And the vast majority of
DG> modern-day historians regard the Bible as highly credible historically.
Josephus was not a contemporary of of the biblical writings, but wrote about
the budding christian church that was developing around those writings.
He
makes NO claim about the validity of the miracles cited there.
DG> 2. Dr. J. C. Grenda, former professor of geology at Angelo State
DG> University in San Angelo, TX, who is most certainly NOT a Christian,
You know this, how?
DG> taught in a historical geology class (which I took and passed, mind
DG> you) that many of the miracles recorded in the Old Testament do have
DG> specific geologic evidences to support that they actually occurred.
DG> For example, a seaquake that was known to have happened around the year
DG> 3000 B.C. in the Mediterranean was in fact powerful enough to have
DG> caused the Red Sea to fold back or be split in the manner described
in
DG> the Book of Exodus.
Yes, the Discovery channel offers lots of these little "coulda happened
this
way" tidbits, too. Speculation, and I'm sure it kept the class entertained.
Split and HELD BACK LONG ENOUGH TO CROSS IT?? Uh huh....
DG> 3. The emergence of many false Christs and non-Christian prophets
DG> also confirms the truth of the Bible. Jesus taught this almost 2,000
DG> years ago. It's been happening, at an ever-increasing pace, ever since.
There have always been false prophets...a nontheist would say that's redundant.
What makes you think its been increasing? Mass media has given them a wider
audience, but ALSO allows greater ease in debunking them. The false prophets
of yesterday enjoyed the isolated state of their audience and never got
NABBED
for it.
Jesus teaching there are false prophets is about as wondrous as me teaching
that the sky appears to be blue. Can we all say "No duh!!".
DG> 4. Mark Ridley, zoologist at Oxford University, in "Who doubts
DG> evolution?" NEW SCIENTIST, volume 90, 6/25/81, page 831, states, "In
DG> any case, no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist,
DG> uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of the theory of evolution
DG> as opposed to special creation." Again, the weight of expert testimony
DG> is against that line of thought, Richard.
The opposition of the two is a stone wall the creationists have set up.
Why
would a serious scientist waste time trying to look for evidence of 'special
creation'? If hard evidence of evolution in the fossil record plays havoc
with your religious views, that's YOUR bugaboo, not theirs.
RS> ky> God that can do anything
RS>
RS> . . . allegedly, though It can't stop sin and needs a
RS> torture chamber and intimidation and fear to get people to
RS> do It's will . . .
DG> Really? Let's back up and try it one more time. If you were a
DG> potter, Richard, wouldn't you want to make the best piece of pottery
DG> you could? What would you do with the clay that you had to scrape off
DG> in order to shape it exactly the way you wanted? I know---you'd pat
it
DG> on the head, say, "You poor little thing, let's just clump you up and
DG> put you over here." Pretty soon you'd be drowning in clay. No, you'd
DG> DISPOSE of it. We are the clay, Richard!
Hehehehe...
No, you DO clump it up and reuse it....why on earth would throw out good
clay
just because it doesn't fit onto THIS pot? How absurd...and you'd be "drowning
in clay"?? You mean, the scrapings would be more than the sum total of
all
the clay you had to start with?? You've slipped into ridiculousness now,
Darryl. And it takes a pretty egotistical potter to blame the clay for
for
his own lack of precision in craftsmanship.
RS> If he's your stunning example of shining Xtianity, I guess
RS> he won't tarnish if the truth be known, eh? Just don't be
RS> surprized that by his antics (and yours, and Harper's, etc.)
RS> are we forming the image of what we consider Xtians to be.
DG> I tend to disbelieve you, Richard, because you paint all of us
DG> Christians with the same colors. Although I don't know Jim at all,
and
DG> therefore am not commenting about him personally, I think anyone
DG> reading any of your posts regarding this Christian or that Christian
>>> Continued to next message...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Lynda Bustilloz
|To: DARRYL GONZALEZ
|Sub: [2/2] ...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 11:47:00
EID:ae4c 22835de0
>>> Part 2 of 2...
DG> ought to take them with several grains of salt.
Instead of reading Richard with a grain of salt, suppose you try reading
the
posts of your fellow Christians, period. Standing on ignorance while refusing
to heed the impressions of those who HAVE read them is a bit....fundy of
you,
isn't it?
You know, you aren't the first in here to say similar...if you guys would
read each others stuff, maybe you wouldn't repeatedly reassert the same
drivel
that has been well trounced before. There is a long (and still growing list)
of
fundy 'standard' errors...and it must be due to lack of seeing what your
cohorts have already tried.
But then again, actually reading what other christians here say has proven
to
be damaging to the faith of more than one of the more thoughtful christians.
Lynda Bustilloz http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8679/
bustilloz@geocities.com http://www.3HarpiesLtd.com
---
þ TLX v4.10 þ And now, a man with a tape recorder up his nose.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]
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|From: Terry Liberty-Parker
|To: All
|Sub: Waco Film Tx Screenings
|Date: 04 Apr 97 18:57:52
EID:59e9 22849720
MSGID: 1:382/804.0 345a0892
CHRS: IBMPC 2
* Forwarded (from: LPTexas) by Terry Liberty-Parker using timEd 1.10+.
* Originally from TXLiberty@aol.com (1:382/87) to terry liberty-parker (1:382/804).
* Original dated: Fri Apr 04, 04:00
From: TXLiberty@aol.com
The film " WACO: Rules of engagement" will be at :
THE USA FILM FESTIVAL
AMC Glen Lakes Theater
9450 N. Central Expressway
Dallas, Texas
214-855-6286
Showing Monday at 7:15pm
April 21
then at:
The Dobie Theater
2021 Guadalupe
Austin, Texas
512-505-0105
May 2 - 8
for further info, go to: http://www.waco93.com/
Toward Liberty,
-Bob
---
--- timEd 1.10+
* Origin: LibertyBBS, Austin,Tx [512]462-1776 (1:382/804)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Netmail
|Date: 04 Apr 97 13:43:33
EID:6e62 22846d60
MSGID: 1:123/67 33450593
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3343aedf
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
03 Apr 97 08:15, quoting Don Martin to Dan Ceppa:
DM> I tried to answer your note, but my system said your node was
DM> beyond its ken. Got an email address?
You can send Dan E-mail right here.
--- GodEdit 0.00
* Origin: John Brawley's Quantum Bait Shop (1:123/67)
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: Scientific Proof Available
|Date: 04 Apr 97 13:51:08
EID:e997 22846e60
MSGID: 1:123/67 334508f7
REPLY: 1:104/447 2f067e10
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
03 Apr 97 05:51, quoting George Harper to All:
GH> In a couple of recent posts I stated the discovery - over 20 years ago
GH> - of an "anomaly" in the general flow of time, as mathematically
GH> measured by the ephemeral data collection computers at one of the labs
GH> charged with developing guidance systems for "space" vehicles.
Please cite specifically what in the hell you are babbling about.
GH> One of the respondants stated that the "stars could be traced back
GH> MATHEMATICALLY"...
What in the hell does this mean? Please be specific.
GH> Since I claim that there are two instances in the Bible where God
GH> manipulated time, I will use these statements /above\ to support my
GH> claim scientifically.
ROFL! First you must demonstrate that your shithorn god exists, fundie.
After you take care of this little task, you then can try to attribute
events to this godlet.
GH> Unless one of the more erudite among you can
GH> provide scientific data to prove that the stated anomaly in the
GH> structure of time does NOT exist, I suggest that you who choose to
GH> deny the existence of God begin to seek a hiding place; My evidence
GH> proves that time was manipulated, meaning that there HAS to be a Being
GH> capable of DOING a feat of such magnitude!
I suggest that you are a fucking lunatic. You are insane, Georgie. No
sane person could possibly come up with such a load of feces.
GH> Okay, folks, the ball is in your court....you can rant, rave, foam at
GH> the mouth, whirl about as good little demons do when caught out,
GH> etc...BUT, you have only two choices * Admit that I am correct, and
GH> then begin praying for forgiveness; or * Follow the stars back
GH> mathematically
This is the logical fallacy of bifurcation. There are more than two
choices, nitwit, not the least of which would be to characterize you
as a complete and total Idiot.
GH> will be able to at least provide the computational equipment for such
GH> a task, if not the expertise to use that equipment; Or maybe Richard
GH> Smith has another friend at NASA also [I would eminently prefer that
GH> Richard were the one to do the research or at least co-ordinate said
GH> research...he has given his assurance of objectivity, and I
GH> believe that to be sincere]>.
I'm sure that Martin or Smith will give your requests about as much play
as Brawley's ravings.
GH> BTW...whoever does the research...be sure to announce the truth when
GH> you find it...and DOCUMENT that truth...< burden of proof is on me...THIS evidence I am certain can be verified.
GH> YOU are the ones claiming that I am lying, so the burden of proving
GH> the claim is yours... by your very own rules!!!>>
Flee the echo, nitwit. Your "work" is done here.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: CRACKER BARREL BOYCOT
|Date: 04 Apr 97 13:58:23
EID:90bf 22846f40
MSGID: 1:123/67 3345091c
REPLY: 1:381/123@fidonet.org c96a1a51
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
02 Apr 97 21:27, quoting Katherine Wintersnight to Shelby Sherman:
SS> KW>> Does Marty have an e-mail address? I have found copies of
SS> KW>> several of his essays on my hard drive, and would love to put
SS> KW>> them on my web page-I need his permission to do so.
SS>> I will be more than happy to give you his permission.
KW> You are so kind. But as they are his work, I really need to get
KW> it from him. I see that he's posting again, though.
Really, he doesn't mind. I use his stuff all the time.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: John Brawley
|Sub: Site
|Date: 04 Apr 97 14:58:49
EID:2999 22847740
MSGID: 1:123/67 3345193f
REPLY: 1:100/435.1 dd6821cf
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
02 Apr 97 10:06, quoting John Brawley to Judith Bandsma:
JB> (*ROFL!*)
JB> (*ROFL!*)
JB> (*ROFL!*)
JB> (*ROFL!*)
JB> (*ROFL!*)
JB> (*ROFL!*)
JB> (*ROFL!*)
JB> (*ROFL!*)
You're easily amused, Oh Zeroless One.
JB> I gotta tell ya' one thing in all seriousness, tho:
JB> It was quite educational to see real faces attached to all these names
JB> we are so familiar with. You have done a very GOOD thing, in that
JB> seeing real people, to mentally attach to the names, makes a
JB> (*suddenly*) powerful statement about how casually we treat text-only
JB> versions of those people.
As opposed to *what*? You don't get out much, do you? I have met a
number of Fido personalities, including Dr. Goldberg and Starwyn. I
hobnob with a few locals, so what? Why do you attach some mysticism
to the people on the other end of the keyboards?
JB> The sense of reality experienced by
JB> cruising your "rogue's gallery" causes major changes in one's
JB> awareness, that these are real people with real faces instead of
JB> faceless typewriters with fuzzy minds behind them.
What did you expect, Bait Son?
JB> (You defeat "BBS anonymity" and re-personalize our humanity.
GodDamn, Brawley. You're just plain sickening.
JB> Perhaps
JB> I should have sent you a less temporally disjointed picture.)
I think that the picture of you looked right on.
JB> It is a very _good_ thing that you have done.
(Groan) Your blandishment is nauseating.
JB> I, for one, could not in a million years have 'seen' Shelby Sherman
JB> in
JB> a flowered Hawaiian shirt!
How amazing. How amazing that real people throw off the shackles of
The Quantum Zero and actually take trips to Kauai. How shocking that
one would actually don a Hawaiian shirt at that place. The mind
boggles.
Have a drink and get a life, John :-).
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: George Harper
|Sub: ARROGANCE
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:32:13
EID:af95 22848400
MSGID: 1:123/67 33452d47
REPLY: 1:104/447 2f829aca
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
04 Apr 97 02:35, quoting George Harper to Fredric Rice:
SS>> If _you_ claim that hell exists, then you get to provide the
SS>> evidence. Do you have any?
>> Removing "kid" gloves:
>> You stupid, asinine blowhard! Why don't you stop frothing at the
>> mouth,
>> and read what you are writing? You contradict yourself twice in
>> three
FR>> [...ranting Christanic lunacy cut...]
FR>> Do you always revert to an illiterate rant when faced with an
FR>> embarrassing question, George? And shouldn't your resentment and
FR>> anger be telling you a little something about the viability of
FR>> your occult beliefs?
GH> What Resentment? What Anger? Because I called Shelby a "naughty
GH> name"?
Why don't you just address me directly, cultist? Do you have evidence
that hell exists?
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:33:58
EID:d5ca 22848420
MSGID: 1:123/67 33452dd9
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
31 Mar 97 17:31, quoting Judith Bandsma to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> enough for you, or must I employ the Dreaded Purple Thunder
SS>> Lizard to exercise his uvula in your general direction?
JB> Now, Shelby! Don't the rest of us throw enough profanity at him
JB> without you adding a uvula to it?
There's not a snowball's chance that he has a clue as to what I
am talking about.
GH>> I am NOT particularly impressed with your alleged education
GH>> or
SS>> Why don't you save the bandwidth and just shout "Is Not"?
JB> He wants first hand evidence but not from anybody here. The boy's not
JB> too bright.
Another understatement. Damn, you wummins are smart. BTW, get a load of
Bait Boy's almost orgasmic response to your web site. It is good, but not
that good.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Alternative or Straw.
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:36:01
EID:5ce5 22848480
MSGID: 1:123/67 33452e12
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 77e092ba
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
02 Apr 97 19:15, quoting Martin Goldberg to Laurie Appleton:
MG> Then why does the famous creationist Laurie Appleton say:
MG> "That is one of the joys of evolutionism isn't it? Since
MG> it ... makes a Creator superfluous, that leaves you
MG> free."
MG> "It provides a motivation for accepting evolution."
About time someone starting playing his game. This proves to me
that Appleton is an evolutionist.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Randi
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:36:49
EID:95c2 22848480
MSGID: 1:123/67 33452f00
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 77e0aa1f
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
02 Apr 97 19:24, quoting Martin Goldberg to Christopher Baker:
MG> A nice H. Upmann either in the #20000 or the Columbo size would be
MG> good. Send several as Leipzig is coming over this weekend and I don't
MG> wnat to run out. :-)
I'll be in Dallas next Tues-Fri :-). No, you don't have to take me out
to that famous MexiCoon place again, but I may give you a ring just to
say hi. I'll be at the MC Marriot Airport in case you want to phone in
a bomb threat or something.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Lest we forget the dumbasses abroad
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:42:23
EID:6c4a 22848540
MSGID: 1:123/67 33452fad
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 77ee229a
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
03 Apr 97 19:56, quoting Martin Goldberg to Shelby Sherman:
SS>> CUTUD, Philippines (Reuter) - Devout Christians had themselves
SS>> nailed to wooden crosses while others beat their own backs with
SS>> whips in a bloody re-enactment of Jesus Christ's crucifixion on
SS>> Good Friday nearly 2,000 years ago.
MG> Ha Ha...morons.
Without a question, just like those stupid shits over in the Middle
East that beat themselves bloody over who knows what. Goat-damn,
religion is a real drain on sanity and society.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Shelby Sherman
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Homosexuality
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:46:55
EID:e95c 228485c0
MSGID: 1:123/67 3345315b
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A398
PID: GED3 2.51.a901 124LM3
02 Apr 97 20:53, quoting Ken Young to Dan Ceppa:
>> MG> I promised you evidence that homosexuality is not a disease.
>> KY> Yes, you did. And I still am waiting. There is a difference
>> KY> between
>> MG> "The American Psychiatry Association has removed
>> MG> homosexuality from it's list of disorders...and has
>> KY> And what do they base this on?
>> Something that you are very unfamiliar with: Evidence.
KY> I sure am, if you mean your definition of the word. I always thought
KY> evidence was something that proved something to be true.
Evidence is data that points to a conclusion, Jelly. Simple, eh?
What you think evidence is is quite irrelevant, eh?
KY> But I do not
KY> see
Argument from personal incredulity is weak, Jelly. Just because you
don't understand what evidence is, does not diminish its power.
KY> how OPINIONS of anyone, could be considered to be evidence of
KY> anything except that that is what they think.
You're a real non-fucking Moron, aren't you? How in the hell do you
they would determine sexuality, a freaking blood test?
Gawd...you are dense, little feller.
--- GodEdit 0.00
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|From: Marilyn Burge
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: AHEM???
|Date: 04 Apr 97 10:50:10
EID:437e 22845640
MSGID: 1:105/302.666 5336b29b
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 77ee1296
On (03 Apr 97) Martin Goldberg babbled to Marilyn Burge...
MG> AH>> No, he becomes a Christian, which is non-Jewish. Judaism is
MG> AH>> a religion, not a race.
MB> It's also an ethnic identity, dimbulb. My son-in-law is an
MB> atheistic Jew. Like it or lump it. There are literally
MB> hundreds of thousands of them worldwide.
MG> I must disagree. While you might consider yourself jewish AND
MG> atheist, Judaism is strictly a religion. I do not consider myself any
MG> more jewsih that the pope, but was born into the faith.
Strange. I know many Jews who would disagree with you.
I guess it's a matter of choice whether one identifies
hirself as a Jew or not.
... Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is ETERNAL.
--- PPoint 2.00
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|From: Sally Springett
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: You Lose
|Date: 03 Apr 97 20:11:00
EID:827d 2283a160
MSGID: 1:2613/313@ ad899f7a
DC> Jim would be for having a brain, but he doesn't understand
DC> that either, having only a partialy functioning neuron.
KS> I understand he has a good lawyer, though...got a sodomy
KS> charge plea bargained down to 'following too close'...
ROTFL! If that's an old one it's new to me. I loved it.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
---
* KMail 3.10o Knight Moves
--- QScan/PCB v1.17b / 01-0406
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|From: Roger Hunter
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: BOOK
|Date: 04 Apr 97 11:03:00
EID:a77b 22845860
-=> Quoting Don Martin to Roger Hunter <=-
RH> Uh......You DO plan on sharing the royalties, don't you?
DM> Hey, I've got my old age to think of (and at _my_ age, I don't
DM> have all that much time in which to do so).
Tell me about it! But I may be even older than you; I'm 62.
Have you considered publishing it yourself? All you need is a good
printer to make the master pages, plus access to a copying company
like Kinko's. Then you either center staple or cut and bind, depending
on size. I'm thinking of 5.5" x 8.5" pages (8.5" x 11" folded).
Cost would be around $5 each (wild guess). Retail for $19.95
and retire!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- FLAME v1.1
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Richard Smith
|Sub: Folly #0 of 7
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:00:14
EID:235e 22836000
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33452e53
REPLY: 1:203/9046.0 333b4cac
Hi Richard...
On 27 Mar 97 23:44:28, Richard Smith penned the following to David Rice
re: Folly #0 of 7
DR> Hi. What follows is Marty Leipzig's version of Creationist
DR> Folly, in Microsoft Word for Windows 6.0 UUEncoded format.
RS> I don't have Microsoft Word for Windows 6.0 . . . is there
RS> any other way to view this?
If you're running '95 and have the CD there is a free Word
viewer on the disk. The viewer is also available on the
Web and from some BBSes.
John
... Cogito, ergo Dei non est.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Velikovsky Fan Eh?
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:06:38
EID:3bdb 228360c0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33452e54
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89f5dd6c
Hi Laurie...
On 29 Mar 97 14:58:54, Laurie Appleton penned the following to Dan Ceppa
re: Velikovsky Fan Eh?
DC> The only unaswered question, Laurie, is if you are
DC> capable of thought.
LA> Ah my favourite Velikovsky "fan". Ready for your next
LA> instalment it seems? Why should I disappoint you?
You didn't disappoint us, Laurie. Dan is wrong. We all KNOW you
aren't capable of thought, just cut & paste like a
pre-schooler.
LA> Happy reading Dan! Er... try to remember to "put your
LA> mind into gear" first eh?
Heed your own advice, Laurie... that is, if you have a mind.
John
... 11th Rule of Creationism: Repeat falsified arguments at a later time.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Water and Flood.
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:09:40
EID:cc68 22836120
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33452e55
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89f5e032
On 29 Mar 97 15:00:24, Laurie Appleton penned the following to Damien Wellman
re: Water and Flood.
LA> The LACK of evidence is for evolution, and that would
That's why we save lives and your butt-buddies just destroy
them?
LA> probably explain why well known evolutionist, Niles
LA> Eldredge, the Curator of the American Museum of natural
LA> History states that;
"Creationists are the liars, freely slinging mud at all who
cross their peculiarly myopic view of the natural world." (TMB
- Page 112)
Isn't that what Eldredge says, Laurie? Doesn't he say those
"debates" you are so proud of were staged by preachers who
weren't afraid to tell the most outrageous lies because they
were outside of the specialties of those they were debating?
Why am I asking you? You haven't read it so how would you know?
DW> There are a few other cultures with flood myths. Not
DW> nearly enough to actually give any kind of evidence for one,
LA> Almost all peoples and tribes and cultures around the
LA> world have traditions of major flooding. That would normally
That is dead WRONG, Laurie... another lie to add to your
collection of lies. Why don't the ancient Egyptians have a
flood myth, Laurie? They were supposed to be there at the time,
weren't they? Why don't the Australian Aboriginals have flood
myths, Laurie? They were there thousands of years before Israel
was settled. Why do the American First Nations peoples have
fire myths rather than flood myths?
Why are you such a goof?
LA> be enough for any normal mind, even if the world itself was
LA> not simply STIFF with evidence of millions of dead things in
LA> sedimentary strata laid down by water all over the world!
The world is stiff with evidence that Creationists are liars,
Laurie. Eldredge says your kind are liars and Asimov agrees. Why
not post some more just to prove it and put the last nails in
the coffin of Creationism.
John
... Your family's Coat-of-Arms ties in the back - is that normal?
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Natural Selection.
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:31:56
EID:bbf0 228363e0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33452e56
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89fd5b4f
Laurie...
You REALLY are going totally potty on us, you know...
On 31 Mar 97 10:54:38, Laurie Appleton penned the following to Robert Curry
re: Natural Selection.
LA> As for mutations, we have found that they are uniformly
LA> negative or neutral in their effect
RC> Kindly cite the evidence (if any!) for this that was
RC> published in a peer-reviewed journal for biologists. Or you
RC> may save yourself time by *admitting your lie* right now.
LA> Your question itself is effectively a LIE of course,
OF COURSE? What kind of loony-toon are you, Laurie? Robert
asked for evidence. How could that be a lie? He suggested you
admit your lie right now, but of course, since you have a
peculiarly myopic view of the natural world you couldn't
recognize yourself lying under any circumstances.
LA> since you must surely know what I have said is true anyway
LA> and you are "clowning to the gallery" in an attempt to
LA> mislead them!
That would be you, Laurie... a clown of the first water.
LA> Leading evolutionist Niles Eldredge writes;
"Creationists are the liars, freely slinging their mud at
anyone who crosses their peculiarly myopic view of the natural
world." - TMB Pg 112
LA> So there you have it and similar statements from leading
LA> evolutionists abound. The question of there being any
That's true, Laurie. All evolutionists recognize that
Creationists are liars... and charlatans and mountebanks.
John
... 13th Rule of Creationism: Never honestly answer direct questions.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Laurie Appleton
|Sub: Natural Selection (b)
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:38:09
EID:5d01 228364c0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33452e57
REPLY: 3:640/238@Fidonet 89fd5bbb
Hi Laurie...
I'm getting a REAL chuckle out of you parading your ignorance
around like it was a badge of honour!
On 31 Mar 97 10:55:28, Laurie Appleton penned the following to Robert Curry
re: Natural Selection (b)
LA> How could natural selection work before there are already
LA> some living reproducing animals in existence,
RC> ROFL! Who told you that Natural Selection applies only to
RC> animals?
LA> ROFL! Who would ever have thought that inanimate objects
LA> could reproduce and bring forth fertile offspring from which
LA> natural selection could SELECT the "fittest"?
Idiot-boy Laurie hasn't figured out that natural selection works
on plants too.
John
... 99% of people are stupid, and the remaining 1% of us risk infection.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: John Musselwhite
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: The BM Blues Pt. 1
|Date: 03 Apr 97 12:45:05
EID:7e96 228365a0
PID: BWMAX 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 33452e58
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 77c65ec4
Hi Martin!
On 31 Mar 97 19:26:42, Martin Goldberg penned the following to ALL
re: The BM Blues Pt. 1
MG> THE BAR MITZVAH. A HORROR STORY IN SLIGHTLY MORE THAN ONE ACT
I LOVED it! Thanks for posting it (and for running it through
a spell-checker first!).
John
... Polygamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is often the same.
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Homosexuality
|Date: 04 Apr 97 15:03:50
EID:7288 22847860
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 334573e3
REPLY: 1:124/9005.221 77e0ce03
Martin Goldberg said "Homosexuality" to Ken Young, adding:
KY> Tell me, are there any sexually related disorders? Or are they
KY> all to be accepted as normal?
MG> You bet there are. Someone who must have sex with children
MG> comes to mind. Tell me if this precludes them from functioning
MG> in society. You bet it does. Does homosexuality? Outside of
MG> those that condemn it for no reason, it does not.
KY> Again, you have stated opinions from professionals, but no
KY> medical facts. Homosexuality may not be a disease, but it is a
KY> disorder, just like any deviancy.
MG> You need to learn about evidence and how it is gathered. You
MG> cannot just claim this to be opnion. It shows lack of
MG> intelligence to do so.
When it somes to the "lack of intelligence" department, Jelly
takes a backseat to no one on this echo. We're thinking of having
him bronzed.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Humping Mr. Morality
|Date: 04 Apr 97 15:10:40
EID:ac20 22847940
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 334573e4
REPLY: 1:270/430@FidoNet 0000A39F
Waxing lubricous (without even washing it first!), KY said "Driving
Mr. Morality" to Rod Swift, adding:
> KY> RC> Do you really think it is Christian bashing for one to
> KY> RC> say that Christianity is evil?
> KY> If they have reasoning behind it, probably not.
RS> So what is your reasoning for hating gays? What is your
RS> reasoning for lying about gays?
KY> Please show me one time that I said I hate gays. I never said
KY> that, because I don't. I hate what they do, not them
KY> personally.
And just how often have you had to _watch_ them doing that which
you hate? 'Fess up, now--the object of your hatred exists only in
your fevered imagination. I can believe that you lack the
intelligence of a cucumber, but I cannot believe that you have been
spending your nights peeping into the bedroom windows of popular
homosexuals: you simply are not honest enough to gather any data
upon which to base your hatreds.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Book
|Date: 04 Apr 97 15:26:23
EID:5295 22847b40
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 334573e5
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 f2a82201
Marilyn Burge said "Book" to Don Martin, adding:
MB> Just say "Marilyn snet me," and I'm sure you'll get all the
MB> attention that name-dropping deserves.
I dunno--anybody who has probably bought every single book on
the house line is quiter capable of getting a publisher's attention.
You are the second to mention Prometheus (a great
name--"Forethought"--for a guy who gets eternal punishment from a
shithead god for doing something good for mankind: you don't see the
Jesse Joneses of this world getting their livers pecked out). I'll
certainly try to get it in there.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: George Harper
|Sub: CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:00:38
EID:ffe7 22848000
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 334573e6
REPLY: 1:104/447 2f829acd
George Harper said "CHRISTANIC TERRORISTS" to Katherine
Wintersnight, adding:
GH> makes you think YOU can succeed? (Oh, NO!...not that! Please! I
GH> *NEED* those spankings) hehehehehehehehehehe
You are not the first fundy loon to creep through here seeking
the cheap thrills of computer martyrdom. Some have even been
sufficiently sentient to know when they have been wounded: they
bragged about what a terrible ordeal they went through here to their
friends on other echos. Not that you could do this sort of thing, of
course . . . .
Later, you say to Roger Hunter:
RH> As soon as you prove I do not hold a promissory note for $1
RH> million signed by you and now overdue. Pay up!
GH> *IF* I indeed signed it, it will be possible to prove in a
GH> court of law. With a million dollars at stake, surely you don't
GH> mind paying off some poor beknighted soul to perjure himself to
GH> attest to the authenticity of my signature. However, what will
GH> you do about the demand for finger print identification??? Or
GH> did you work for the Arvada Police Department
RH> But George, you're asking me to prove I have it. I asked you to
RH> prove I DON'T.
RH> Big difference, which is the point I was making.
GH> I have to prove that you don't have a document that can't
GH> possibly exist? OoooKay! My evidence is that the signature on
GH> such a document, being a forgery by one who has never met me,
GH> let alone seen anything I have signed, is false, and to verify
GH> my proof, all that is needed is to present it at my bank for a
GH> comparison of signatures.
Sorry, Bunky, that does not fly. You are still asking for
evidence that Roger HAS the promissory note: "present it to the
bank" is precisely such a request. The purpose of this exercise is
to demonstrate to you the assininity of asking for proof of a
negative, which you did by your assertion to deflect requests for
evidence for your imaginary superfriend that we "cannot prove that
god does not exist". If we cannot do so, you would have us conclude,
god must exist. The Promissory Note Parallel is _you_ cannot prove
that the promissory note does not exist: following your hoped-for
"logic" in the matter of god, it must, therefore, exist.
It is a bullshit proposition, either for gods or promissory
notes, because the first rule of logic is "he who asserts must
prove." I will happily withdraw my assertion about a promissory
note, the non-existence of which you cannot prove, if you will drop
your requests that we "prove" the non-existence of your god.
Otherwise pay up. All you have done so far is whine about note
holders not being able to pass the bloody things, just as we WOAs
bitch about your deities that exist only in your imaginations.
Do you see the point yet?
I thought not.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: Book
|Date: 04 Apr 97 16:26:56
EID:31e4 22848340
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 334573e7
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 27fd0226
Curtis Johnson said "Book" to Don Martin, adding:
CJ>> Self-publishing is an option, but you'd better have a
CJ>> garage for storage.
DM> Charles Churchill did well with this in the 18th century, but he
DM> _had_ to move the goods--the garages were _much_ smaller back then.
CJ> Once it moves, approach a regular publisher. If
CJ> _Celestine Prophecy_ can do it, why not _Holysmoke: The Incense_?
CJ> Of course, in moving to the public arena, you have to
CJ> beware that the lions ate up all the profits.
Not nearly enough of them, apparently. The rest of yours is
saved to disk.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don@balt-rehab.med.va.gov)
--- Blue Wave/386 v2.20
* Origin: Nerve Center - Where the spine is misaligned! (1:261/1000)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: J.C. Kibler
|Sub: News Article
|Date: 02 Apr 97 15:50:00
EID:61a9 22827e40
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3342c678
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
J.c. Kibler said to All about News Article:
JK> @MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3341dd76
JK> Reposted without permission
JK> This was found on the Science echo
JK> REUTERS, March 31, 1997
JK> HEADLINE: TRUE CROSS OF CHRIST FOUND IN GOZAN HEIGHTS
JK> By C. Edward Kent
JK> JERUSALEM -- The true cross of Christ, used to crucify the leader of
JK> the Christian movement two thousand years ago, has been found
JK> at an archaeological dig in the Gozan Heights, roughly 238
JK> kilometres north east of Jerusalem, at the ancient site of
JK> the Biblical city of El Y Mhoosk (Eli Muusk). Head dig
JK> team archaeologist Gerrold Gantbim will release information
JK> on the find to the press at a dawn news conference tomorrow
JK> in Jerusalem, just a few short miles from the ancient site
JK> of Golgotha where the King of the Jews met his untimely
JK> death.
Yeah, yeah, yeah . . .
JK> But in a Canadian TV series on the environment next month,
JK> team member Havil tad Midon, a Middle East archaeologist
JK> and inspiration for film character Indiana Jones, says it
JK> is "between maybe and probably" that they have found the
JK> true cross of Christ.
JK> -30-
Glad to see you posting your IQ as well. What a bunch of
crapola. I'll believe it when I see it.
... "Oy, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbi out of my hat!" -- BJM
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: J.C. Kibler
|Sub: Repent NOW!
|Date: 02 Apr 97 15:52:02
EID:5397 22827e80
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3342c6f2
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
J.c. Kibler said to All about Repent NOW!:
JK> TAKE THAT, YOU GODLES HEATHERN SCUM! CRIST WILL HAVE YOUO
JK> ALL ON A BARBEQUET SPIT IN HELL FOR BLASFEMY!
c/godles/godless/
c/Crist/Christ/
c/youo/you/
c/barbequet/bbq//or//barbeque/
c/blasfemy/blasphemy/
You seem to fit right in, junior.
... ...blah blah, J.c., blah blah sue you blah blah... -J.Brawley
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Don Martin/Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Book
|Date: 02 Apr 97 16:10:04
EID:d93b 22828140
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 a773a952
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3342cb2c
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Marilyn Burge said to Don Martin about Book:
MB> I think we need a small chapter on taglines, or perhaps
MB> a better choice would be to include taglines as you go
MB> along that succinctly state the point being made. You
MB> could use them as paragraph headers along with verbiage
MB> in the beginning of the book that states the paragraph
MB> headers are taglines filched from the echo participants.
I concur with Marilyn, this is a great idea, but I think you
can take it a step further. I think there is such a
goldmine of taglines here that you could easily use taglines
for either headers or footers for each page. To give it
some illusion of control, you could limit the tagline
headers/footers to the subject matter of that chapter,
thereby allowing you to cull the best. I'd be very happy to
post my taglines or send them in a file to someone . . .
... Did you ever notice how fundies like to argue with taglines?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: You forgot to answer
|Date: 02 Apr 97 16:29:06
EID:6ba2 228283a0
REPLY: 1:383/6293 33395858
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3342cfa2
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Darryl Gonzalez said to David Rice about Re: You forgot to answer:
gh> (NEWS FLASH: Hitler was NOT a Christian...he was
gh> a lunatic on the order of Jimmy Jones)
DR> VALID NEWS FLASH: Hitler was a Christian--- he said so.
dg> News flash for the intellectually challenged:
Do you talk to yourself all the time, Darryl?
dg> Hitler was most certainly NOT a Christian.
Any evidence to back this up, Other Brother?
dg> (These facts
What facts? They're not facts until you substantiate them.
If you don't take the time to do that, then they remain just
what they are . . . crackpot theories concocted by
apologeticists.
dg> can be backed up by reading any biography of Adolf
ANY book about Hitler? I've just read The Mind of Adolph
Hitler. It disagrees with you. Ergo, you're debunked.
dg> Hitler, or by reading the recent history of Germany.
How does the RECENT history of Germany affect a person fifty
years dead? LOL . . .
dg> But then again, I am making a great assumption
You got that half right.
dg> here-----you CAN read, can't you, David?)
I bet his lips don't get as tired as yours do.
dg> Yes, in early
dg> life (as a child), he said he wanted to be a priest.
dg> (Real Christian churches don't have formal priesthoods.)
So you don't consider the Catholics to be Xtian? M'boy, you
just debunked yourself. Next.
dg> But when he took office, he tried to tell the German
dg> churches to eliminate much of the Bible from their
dg> teaching, on grounds that it was mostly Jewish.
That doesn't make him not a Xtian.
dg> Hitler also ordered the deaths of thousands of
dg> Christians in addition to the six million Jews
dg> he ordered dead.
You have said signed orders?
Sorry, Darryl, but this doesn't make him less a Xtian. It
makes him a BAD Xtian, that much I'll admit to you. But the
Deity of the Xtians (who you sometimes call Christ) has
ordered the deaths of thousands (a conservative estimate), a
lot of them Xtians. Ergo, to follow your reasoning, your
Deity is not Xtian. Or consider Augustine.
dg> Adolf Hitler is NOT a Christian by any stretch of the
dg> imagination.
I see no evidence of this claim, so it remains just a claim.
DR> But then, so was the Rev Jim Jones.
dg> Nope! Wrong again.
Oh?
dg> At first, he made his message sound like the Gospel. Th
dg> en he did the wrong thing---he tried to oppose God.
Please show me the source for this. I will admit that Jim
Jones opposed the established Church, but then so did Martin
Luther, and he's still a Xtian, isn't he?
dg> Then he did even worse---he convinced over nine hundred
dg> people to kill themselves, because he knew his cause was
dg> lost.
How does that make him less a Xtian? He did something that
many Xtians have done over the millenia . . . ordered death
or destruction for untold peoples.
dg> Revisionist history at its finest.
I noticed that you weren't in touch with reality. Sorry to
hear that you're so loopy.
dg> Sorry, but people who bother to READ history for
dg> themselves won't buy it. Just as I didn't (and won't)
dg> buy it.
Sorry. I read history for myself, and I buy it. I'm sorry
that you're so afraid to let your religion's actions appear
as anything less than perfect that you're willing to cover
up the truth: that Xtianity has been the single biggest
cause of death and destruction since its formation. Just
this century alone Xtian has been responsible for roughly 20
million deaths around the world.
Debunked.
... Either glorify JC now by choice, or by force later. -- Darryl Gonzalez
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Homodarryl B
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:10:10
EID:b4eb 22829940
REPLY: 1:383/6293 33396566
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3342f562
( . . . Mr. Rogers talk to Darryl continued from previous post)
>I seem to have a better concept of it than you.
>
>RS> dg> I daresay, for those of you who insist that
>RS> dg> there's no evidence for the existence of God,
>RS>
>RS> Which God?
>RS>
>RS> dg> that there's actually much more evidence for His
>RS>
>RS> Who?
>RS>
>RS> dg> existence than there is for yours.
>RS>
>RS> Untrue. Here is evidence of my existence, a post made
>RS> by me and signed by me, personally, both times. Got a
>RS> post directly from your Deity, made by your Deity,
>RS> signed by your Deity? Beware, we expect a hoax.
>
>Two points could be made here:
>
>First of all, your post could be nothing more than a random
>jumble of electrons which just happened to be flowing
>through the correct telephone wires at some time. (There's
>about as much chance of that happening as there is of the
>universe just spontaneously "creating" itself.)
>
>Secondly, yes, I DO have such a message from my God. It's
>called the BIBLE.
>
>- Pedit Ver 2.5
>... If your preacher's sermons every Sunday seem to include you.
>You might be over 50
>
>-!- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
> ! Origin: The Warrior's Path BBS ** Line 3 ** 14400 Baud
> Ugh! (1:383/3396)
-------------------------------------------------------------
So we see that when you say that:
dg> Seems to me that a while back I presented evidence
That you lied and did not. As a matter of fact, you admit
that you don't cite your sources correctly:
>RS> First, you need to cite your sources correctly so that we
>RS> know you're not making this up. Date, page, column, etc.,
>RS> will all be necessary to verify this.
dg> Yes, and for that I do apologize. I will verify that quote
dg> and get back to you.
. . . AND that you did not present evedence:
>RS> dg> Dr. Walter Bradley, Ph.D., Professor of Mechanical
>RS> dg> Engineering and Senior TEES Research Fellow at Texas A &
>RS> dg> M University, states in a rather powerful article found
>RS> dg> on the World Wide Web: "It is abundantly clear evidence
>RS> dg> abounds for the existence of an intelligent creator...
>RS> Yet he never cites what that evidence is. Coincidence, or
>RS> avoidance? I say the latter.
dg> Actually, he does cite the evidence. I just didn't want to
dg> sit for an hour in front of my keyboard. Therefore, your
dg> next statement is invalid.
This last one was really odd, for while the source was on
the WORLD WIDE WEBB (something that you only had to download
or capture to have) you wanted to give the impression that
you'd have to type it in. So you were lying even HERE!
So we also see that when you say:
dg> Yet when presented with expert testimony
. . . and . . .
dg> even when presented with the ir credentials.
We actually see that you did the opposite. Follow along if
you can:
First you mentioned Astrophysicist (which is NOT an expert
on the beginning of the Universe!) Paul Davies, saying:
dg> in his 1984 book
dg> SUPERFORCE, stated, "The equations of physics have in
dg> them incredible simplicity, elegance, and beauty. That
dg> in itself is sufficient to prove to me that there must
. . .
Which is clearly OPINION, NOT EVIDENCE. Without showing his
work, credentials, publishing history, or his evidence, he
can't automatically be considered and expert witness. So
he's out. Next you mentioned Russian physicist Alexander
Polyakov, who (according to you) said:
. . .
dg> in the October 1986 issue of Fortune Magazine. "We know
dg> that nature is described by the best of all possible
dg> mathematics because God created it."
Again, this is only his _opinion_, and that from an OLD
source. For crying out loud, Darryl, your reference is over
a decade old!!! It is outdated! And you don't give any
credentials that would qualify him as an expert on the
beginning of the universe, nor his publishing background,
NOR any of his evidence! So he's discounted as an expert
witness. Then you cite two people you conceivably consider
experts:
dg> Take also the statement from University of Virginia
dg> astronomer J. S. Trefil. "If I were a religious man, I
dg> would say that everything we have learned about liffe in
dg> the past twenty years shows that we are unique, and
dg> therefore special in God's sight."
RS> Thereby implying, by his very words here, that he DOESN'T
RS> believe what you are positing that he does believe. In
RS> essence, either you can't read, or you're a liar.
And, in essence, removing him as an expert witness on the
creationist view of the beginning of the universe because
he doesn't even agree with belief in Deity (or he'd be
religious), and you gave none of his evidence, credentials,
publishing history, etc. To give it to you in ->short<-
words: it's clear from what he said that he does not believe
what you are claiming he believed. Also, neither one of
these guys could be considered experts on the beginning of
the universe, since they're only astronomers.
dg> He collaborated with
dg> fellow U of V astronomer R. T. Rood on a book, ARE WE
dg> ALONE?, in which they forcefully argued that even if the
dg> existence of life on Earth is an accident, then the odds
dg> against it would have to be so high as to almost prevent
dg> it from happening anywhere else.
RS> This, of course, doesn't establish the veracity of the
RS> existence of any Deity either. And yet this is evidence to
RS> you? That's laughable. All you have are a bunch of failed
RS> Appeal to Authority citations, in essence hearsay. You have
RS> NO evidence that would stand up in a court of law.
Not only that, but Dr. Rood's work in the book presents the
very case you hope to disprove, that the universe did NOT
happen by design. And, again, you give none of the
bonafides I've asked for elsewhere, including evidence. So
both of these guys are ruled out as expert witnesses until
such time as you provide more information, including their
work AND evidence. So who do you have left that you claimed
was an expert witness? Dr. Bradley:
dg> Dr. Walter Bradley, Ph.D., Professor of Mechanical
dg> Engineering and Senior TEES Research Fellow at Texas A &
dg> M University, states in a rather powerful article found
dg> on the World Wide Web: "It is abundantly clear evidence
dg> abounds for the existence of an intelligent creator...
RS> Yet he never cites what that evidence is. Coincidence, or
RS> avoidance? I say the latter.
Not only that, but an engineer is NOT an expert on the
beginning of the universe, and anyone who suggests that they
are is an idiot. And you don't present his evidence, you
only present his opinion. Opinions are like assholes,
everyone has one, and most of them stink. Hell, you can't
even figure out what his bona fides are, and you keep
changing your story, to judge by the following:
dg> P.S.: You never answered my last post about Dr. Bradley.
Was it the post I just finished reposting here? If so,
you're a liar, and I'll gladly repost my response at the
end of this post. If not, then FIDO has been a bad dog, and
I haven't seen it . . . repost it if you dare.
dg> His background is NOT in mechanical engineering, but
dg> rather in applied solid and liquid state physics and
dg> chemistry.
So WHAT are his degrees in, what research grants has he
received funding in, what reputable peer review publications
or house/scientific journals has he appeared in with
articles about this? And why can't you get your story
straight about him?
dg> (You can verify that by EMailing him at
dg> wbradley@mengr.tamu.edu.)
Sorry, I don't do the homework for the plebes. Do your own
research. You made the claim, YOU establish it.
dg> Thus he is well-qualified to
dg> speak as an expert on thermodynamics
I see no degree in thermodynamics, nor any citations.
dg> and the origin of life.
How is thermodynamics and the origins of life associated
with the beginning of the universe? Surely you're not
trotting out that old creationist claptrap that claims the
two are intimately connected?
Face it Darryl . . . you're odd, you're a liar, you're
stupid, and we like laughing at you.
dg> (Or could it be that you were afraid to answer that post
dg> because you fear the truth?
I did answer it. Here's my copy of my reply, which I'm sure
others saw as well, added on to the end of this message.
dg> Don't fear it----it can set you free!)
Considering your track record for lies, you need to be set
free asap.
>RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
>Darryl Gonzalez said to Richard Smith about Re: Evidences
>for God:
>
>RS> dg> I wasn't going to get into this "evidences" question,
>RS> dg> but so many of you have written me & asked me for
>RS> dg> evidences of God that I just had to reply.
> ^^^
>Darryl, three spaces between the quote and the attribute are
>too many . . . it makes it hard to read and to quote from
>when responding to your posts. In extreme cases, it's
>really messed up your posts. I _assume_ that you want your
>communications to be read and understood, and this is
>getting in the way of that. Can you please correct this in
>your OLR? Thanx.
>
>RS>
> dg> Here is just a little of the evidence that I have to
> dg> offer. Let us consider the following statement:
>RS> Okay.
> dg> If God
>RS> Which God? There are millions.
> dg> Nope. Only one. The others are just myths.
>
>Actually, they're ALL mythological. Got any evidence that
>one or two exist but that others do not? And, more
>importantly, don't you know your Deity's name?
>
>dg> does not exist, and does not show His
> RS> Does he have a name?
>
>I guess not, huh Darryl? You didn't answer, so I guess you
>agree with me that it doesn't exist, especially because you
>don't know its name. Unless . . .
>
> dg> handiwork through the universe, then it logically
> dg> follows that those who are scientists without a
> dg> religious disposition would not observe or hypothesize
> dg> His
>RS> Again, have you got a name? YHVH? Jesus? Odin? Sin?
> dg> Technically speaking, the name is YHWH.
>
>All Right! The very FIRST Xtian intelligent enough to
>answer this basic question, rather than to avoid it,
>implying no knowledge of it! Yes, indeed, YHVH or YHWH, who
>we often also call Adonai, Yahweh, or Jehovah.
>
>dg> Jesus (Joshua, in Hebrew) is a form of that name.
>
>I agree with the descent of the name, linguistically.
>
> dg> presence in the universe.
>RS> Why does that follow? There are unbelievers that convert to
>RS> being believers. Because someone seeks out or goes from an
>RS> agnostic or atheist state to a theist state, that doesn't
>RS> establish the veracity or existence of any Deity. Your
>RS> claim doesn't logically follow at all, and is a fallacy.
> dg> Yes, but we're talking about experts who are supposed
> dg> to be in a field that, according to many of you, has
> dg> disproven the existence of God.
>
>Are we still talking about YHVH or some other Deity?
>
>I think you're jumping to conclusions and being bigoted
>here, Darryl. Firstly, by your statement above, you include
>me in the group that (according to you) said that science
>disproved the existence of a Deity. Do you know for a fact
>that I said this? If not, please don't spread lies about
>me. If you know that I said this, then please present
>evidence of me having said it. I'll give you a hint, here,
>Darryl: I'm not an atheist. It is patently unfair for you
>to make a blatant assumption about me and use that
>generalization to slander me when you have no evidence of
>it. As a matter of fact, I've never seen anyone here say
>that science disproves the existence of any Deity. What I
>have seen is that a lot of folks will admit (because they're
>honest) that since there is no real evidence for the
>existence of a Deity, said Deity is unproven and unfounded.
(Barney explanation to Darryl continuing on next post . . . )
... Darryl Gonzalez says his God exists because Socrates believed in it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Homodarryl C
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:14:12
EID:742a 228299c0
REPLY: 1:383/6293 33396566
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3342f654
( . . . remedial primer to Darryl continued from previous post)
>The other problem here is that, like David Worrell, I
>believe that regardless of what people believe, that doesn't
>make it fact. That some people (who may just be a figment
>of your imagination, since you've given us nothing in the
>way to evidence this claim of yours) who have opinions about
>the existence of something may believe in it, that doesn't
>mean that it is fact. Belief has nothing to do with
>reality. Many people used to believe that the earth was
>flat. Was it? No. Many _scientists_ today believe in
>abductions by UFOs. Does that make it a fact? No, it
>doesn't. This is just sloppy thinking on your part, I have
>to say.
>
>dg> These experts are now saying that there is evidence to
>dg> support the existence of God.
>
>That these alledged experts make a claim is one thing.
>Reports of evidence is not evidence itself. You should be
>able to understand that. If said evidence exists, let them
>present it. Otherwise, until shown otherwise, we'll have to
>maintain that these experts of yours are unproven to exist,
>and that this Deity of yours is unproven to exist.
>
> dg> In fact, the opposite is occurring.
>RS> Excuse me?
> dg> Let us hear the following clip from the Washington
> dg> Post: "Many scientists who were not long ago certain
> dg> that the universe was created and peopled by accident
> dg> are having second thoughts and concede the possibility
> dg> that some intelligent creative force may have been
> dg> responsible."
>RS> First, you need to cite your sources correctly so that we
>RS> know you're not making this up. Date, page, column, etc.,
>RS> will all be necessary to verify this.
> dg> Yes, and for that I do apologize. I will verify that
> dg> quote and get back to you.
>
>That is very gracious of you, and I give you my sincere
>thanx for going to that effort for the sake of clarity.
>
>dg> In the meantime, however, check out the following
>dg> articles which also serve to back up that point: "What
>dg> Does Science Tell Us About God", Time cover story, Dec.
>dg> 1992; "Does the Universe Hold Clues to God?", Chronicle
>dg> of Higher Education, May 1993; and "Science and the
>dg> Soul", cover story for Omni, Oct. 1993.
>
>I will certainly do so, thank you for your citations. The
>next time I hit the library, I'll pull those and read them.
>Until then, though, I can't see them as evidence of a Deity.
>I'm just being blatantly honest here.
>
>RS> Secondly, IF what you're saying here is verifiable, why does
>RS> that establish the existence of a Deity? A lot of people,
>RS> including scientists, believe that they've been abducted by
>RS> aliens and had things implanted in their bodies, or had anal
>RS> probes. Following your line of reasoning [sic], they would
>RS> have to be correct.
> dg> Not true.
>
>It is if we follow your reasoning [sic]. Look, perhaps
>you're misstating your reasoning, or perhaps it IS faulty.
>But the truth is this: belief has nothing to do with truth.
>Just because someone believes it, that doesn't make it true.
>How is it that those people who believe in abductions are
>wrong, yet your belief in your Deity is correct? Isn't it
>true that you're just arbitrarily deciding, yourself? And
>that is not logically honest.
>
> dg> Let us continue with a sample of quotes from some such
> dg> scientists. Astrophysicist Paul Davies, in his 1984 book
> dg> SUPERFORCE, stated, "The equations of physics have in
> dg> them incredible simplicity, elegance, and beauty. That
> dg> in itself is sufficient to prove to me that there must
>dg> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> dg> be a God who is responsible for these laws and
> dg> responsible for the universe."
>RS> Okay, it MAKES him think there is a Deity, though to be
>RS> truthful, it doesn't PROVE there is a Deity, even to him.
> dg> Can you even read?
>
>I certainly can. Do you know the difference between belief
>and fact? One doesn't necessarily lead to the other.
>Doesn't it occur to you that while all beliefs are
>subjective (believed by the person, but not necessarily
>factual), all facts (absolutely reproducable by
>experiment or observation, a constant) are objective?
>
>Let me put it this way. There is reality, and then there is
>us. We are part of reality, but we never really experience
>reality, since we filter everything we know of reality
>through the filter of our mind, our experiences, etc.
>Reality is the fact. What we think we know of reality we
>consider truth, but that doesn't mean that it is. What we
>embrace of our view of reality is belief.
>
>Take for example love. Does love exist? In belief, as an
>idea, yes it does. As a fact, no it doesn't. Is it
>something you can measure out and put in a box? No. What
>is it, exactly? That depends on the type of love, so let's
>look at romantic love exclusively. In romantic love, a
>person starts picking up bits of chemical that are generated
>by the other person . . . which can occur through kissing,
>scent, etc. That substance is addictive. The chemistry of
>the brain, made euphoric by the compound, creates a
>dependency on it. That dependency can last for as long as
>two or three years. Love after that point is either another
>type of love, or it is patterning generated by the brain, or
>it is force of habit, etc. And that's only romantic love.
>As a belief, love is a wonderful emotion that encircles us,
>protects us, makes us giddy. As a fact, love is (in at
>least one form) a chemical dependency of our brains.
>
>Most of us don't like that view of love, as an addiction.
>But that is the fact of it. Disliking it won't make it not
>so. So, we filter it through our perceptions and believe it
>to be something else entirely. But that doesn't change what
>it is.
>
>RS> His usage of the terms is incorrect. Still, that he is
>RS> convinced of something doesn't make it true. If he believes
>RS> that his toothbrush is inhabited by the spirit of Leonardo
>RS> da Vinci, is it? Belief is not basis for truth. It is only
>RS> belief.
> dg> Yes, but remember, here we are dealing with an expert's
> dg> opinion of the facts.
>
>Firstly, they're not experts on a DEITY, they're experts in
>a science. When Robert J. Oppenheimer tested the first
>a-bomb, he recited "for I am Shiva, the Destroyer of Worlds,
>etc." from the Hindu. He was a scientist, and an expert. He
>professed an opinion here. Was he really Shiva, just
>because he believed he was or said he was? Do we have any
>way of knowing if he was truthfully saying this, or that it
>might just instead be a quote he tossed out? We don't. And
>we don't have any corrollary evidence of the veracity of
>your claims or the beliefs of your experts, either.
>
>And, further, not all the scientists in the world are
>Xtians. There are many who are Hindu, Buddhist, atheist,
>Pagan, etc. To follow your line of reasoning [sic], they
>ALL have to be right in their beliefs, even if it
>contradicts YOUR beliefs. And that, logically, cannot be.
>You should know that.
>
> dg> Also, let's read what the famous Russian physicist
> dg> Alexander Polyakov said, in the October 1986 issue of
> dg> Fortune Magazine. "We know that nature is described by
> dg> the best of all possible mathematics because God created
> dg> it."
>RS> Again, how does his OPINION establish the veracity of your
>RS> claims for the existence of Deity? Hint: it doesn't.
> dg> Ah, but it does!
>
>No, it doesn't. If you truly believe that it does, then you
>speak out of ignorance. Belief is not the causal force
>behind fact. That's just the way it is. Existentialists
>and sophists MAY believe that to be the case, but again,
>that doesn't make it true.
>
>dg> It serves to give validity to my earlier statement,
>dg> that more and more scientists are realizing that God
>dg> created the universe based on their own research.
>
>No, it doesn't validate that at all. Are we still talking
>about YHVH here? What it DOES validate
>is this: that some (since more and more is a relative term,
>we have to switch to a term we can agree on. Some is more
>accurate here) scientists believe that a Deity created the
>universe because they believe that it fits certain things
>they have observed. That doesn't mean that they're correct.
>That's it.
>
> dg> Take also the statement from University of Virginia
> dg> astronomer J. S. Trefil. "If I were a religious man, I
> dg> would say that everything we have learned about liffe in
> dg> the past twenty years shows that we are unique, and
> dg> therefore special in God's sight."
>RS> Thereby implying, by his very words here, that he DOESN'T
>RS> believe what you are positing that he does believe. In
>RS> essence, either you can't read, or you're a liar.
>
>Still no answer about this? Please be honest enough to
>admit that you either misread/misinterpreted what he said,
>or that you were lying or stretching the truth in order to
>try to win an argument. Xtians are supposed to be the most
>honest people on the face of the planet, to hear them talk.
>I'm testing you here to see if your personify this or not.
>
> dg> He collaborated with
> dg> fellow U of V astronomer R. T. Rood on a book, ARE WE
> dg> ALONE?, in which they forcefully argued that even if the
> dg> existence of life on Earth is an accident, then the odds
> dg> against it would have to be so high as to almost prevent
> dg> it from happening anywhere else.
>RS> This, of course, doesn't establish the veracity of the
>RS> existence of any Deity either. And yet this is evidence to
>RS> you? That's laughable. All you have are a bunch of failed
>RS> Appeal to Authority citations, in essence hearsay. You have
>RS> NO evidence that would stand up in a court of law.
> dg> Really?
>
>Really. If you did, you'd present it and win the argument.
>Since you are patently trying to win the argument, the only
>conclusion that can be reached through deduction is that you
>are blustering, and that you actually have no evidence that
>will stand up in a court of law. You can prove me wrong by
>presenting evidence that WILL stand up in a court of law.
>Got any?
>
>dr> Expert testimony doesn't hold water in a court of law?
>dg> Wrong.
>
>Show me where I said that, exactly. Now. Or be known for a
>liar, Darryl.
>
>You have several problems in the use of an expert witness or
>expert testimony. Let me outline them for you.
>
>Firstly, we have no witness of the beginning of the
>universe. There is no one that you can present at an
>inquest and realistically get anyone to believe is such a
>witness. Okay, then, let's say that you don't have an
>expert witness for the formation of the universe. What might
>you have instead? You might have AN expert or THE expert on
>the formation of the universe.
>
>THE expert on the formation of the universe would have to be
>recognized as such by the majority of the scientists in the
>world as such an expert, since YOU are talking about
>scientific evidence here. Hir would have to have had
>extensive training and scholarship in that field of
>expertise, and perhaps a publishing history. Finally, hir
>would have to be able to present evidence or observations in
>such a way as to be able to be duplicated. The experiments
>that hir ran to establish hir's hypothesis would have to be
>considered valid, and must be repeatable with the same
>result each time if the constants are the same. The
>observations would have to be such that they could be
>observed again with accuracy, and still maintain the same
>result. Always, given that the same constants are in force.
>
>Do you have such a person? No, you don't. Who you are
>citing are undoubtedly fine people in their fields, but they
>are not THE expert. There would be only one of them, after
>all, if one of them were.
>
>Okay, what about AN expert? You've cited several people, at
>least on of which DOESN'T appear to believe what you are
>claiming that they believe. Are any of them experts in the
>formation of the universe? I don't think they are, you have
>only cited a pair of astronomers and a pair of physicists,
>from my recollection. Can they claim they are experts on
>the formation of the universe? Sure, they _could_. And I
>could claim to be the King of Sweden. Again, claims don't
>make facts.
>
>Okay, you have someone who claims to be an expert witness,
>and you bring them to court. To refute them, I bring an
>expert witness that refutes them. We still have a
>stalemate, don't we? Remember, in a court of law, it can
>only be judged to be true if it is established BEYOND A
>REASONABLE DOUBT. Only when the facts are undeniable can
>this happen. Can a scientist establish that a drop of blood
>came from a certain person? Yes, through DNA analysis. And
>the majority of the judges in this country would accept
>that. The blood can be shown, the graph of the DNA sequence
>can be displayed, etc. Can you PROVE that your Deity caused
>the universe? Where is your Deity? Do you have a
>verifiable photo of it? Anything?
>
>If you have such an expert witness, please produce them.
>Otherwise, you and I both know that you probably don't have
>one.
>
> dg> Dr. Walter Bradley, Ph.D., Professor of Mechanical
> dg> Engineering and Senior TEES Research Fellow at Texas A &
> dg> M University, states in a rather powerful article found
> dg> on the World Wide Web: "It is abundantly clear evidence
> dg> abounds for the existence of an intelligent creator...
>RS> Yet he never cites what that evidence is. Coincidence, or
>RS> avoidance? I say the latter.
> dg> Actually, he does cite the evidence. I just didn't
> dg> want to sit for an hour in front of my keyboard.
>
>So YOU didn't cite the evidence. Yet you still claim there
>is evidence. Yet it will only work if you cite it. Don't
>be a wimp here, Darryl. If you want to prove your point,
>you have to do the work. The only deductions possible as to
>why you won't do this remain the same: cowardice, laziness,
>or lack of evidence.
>
> dg> Therefore, your next statement is invalid.
>
>We will see, won't we.
(Lullaby for Darryl continued next post . . . )
... If you were wise, you wouldn't be. -- Darryl Gonzalez
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: Homodarryl D
|Date: 02 Apr 97 19:17:14
EID:b66b 22829a20
REPLY: 1:383/6293 33396566
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3342f70a
( . . . Last post of Darryls Remedial Reading Lesson)
> dg> One need never be ashamed of the intellectually
> dg> respectability of belieff in an
> dg> intelligent creator; modern science has come down
> dg> decisively on the side of the person who would posit
> dg> such a belief."
>RS> Again, while this OPINION of his is nice, it isn't evidence,
>
>Is this the statement you alledge is invalid? If so, you're
>wrong. His opinion, without evidence to back it up, IS NOT
>evidence. Understand?
>
>RS> nor does HE give evidence.
>
>_Supposedly_, according to YOU, he does give evidence, but
>YOU don't present it. You can PROVE that I am in error
>about this statement by presenting the evidence. Until
>then, it is hearsay and my statement is not proven to be
>incorrect.
>
>RS> I'm hard pressed to understand
>RS> how a man who has a doctorate in Mechanical Engineering can
>RS> be considered the authority for a Deity.
>
>This certainly isn't an invalid statement.
>
> dg> In this article
> dg> (http://www.leaderu.com/real.ri9403/evidence.html#slides),
> dg> he eamined a number of areas of cosmology which are
> dg> relevant to the discussion (i.e. the Big Bang theory,
>RS> Which he has no expertise in, being a Mechanical Engineer.
> dg> Really?
>
>Absolutely. What is his publishing history of articles,
>etc., in _established_and_respectable_ trade journals of
>cosmology, etc., on the nature of the Big Bang? What
>credentials and certifications, awards, etc., does he hold
>in relationship to the area under scrutiny? Will the court
>recognize him as a certified expert, able to dispense
>special knowledge? A complete list, with dates, page
>numbers, etc., will be necessary.
>
>Otherwise, my statement stands. Even then, what degree does
>he hold in cosmology or a field in which the Big Bang is a
>necessary and crucial element? Any at all, outside of his
>Mechanical Engineering degree, which has NOTHING to do with
>the Big Bang? If not, then no, he has no expertise, and
>cannot be considered an expert.
>
>dg> You mean in all his years of study, he's never
>dg> encountered the Big Bang theory?
>
>How digingenuous of you. So you insist on remaining a liar
>for your Deity, eh? Show me where I said that he never
>encountered the Big Bang Theory. Hint: I never said that.
>Suggestion: get a remedial reading course.
>
>dg> How ridiculous!
>
>You are. But I put up with that for the moment.
>
>dg> I encountered it during my freshman year.....
>
>As strawmen go, this is pretty sloppy on your part.
>
> dg> the coincidences of the universal constants, etc. (If
>RS> Which he has no expertise in, being a Mechanical Engineer.
> dg> you do not have Internet access, give me your physical
> dg> address and I'll mail you a copy of the article.)
>RS> No thanx. I've exceeded my laughter quotient for the week.
> dg> So. There you have it.
>RS> Have what? You've presented nothing but OPINION! No
>RS> evidence to speak of. Have you got ANY?
> dg> Expert opinion, which is what I have presented, is counted
> dg> as evidence in a court of law.
>
>Two more bad attempts at strawmen.
>
>First Strawman: that you have presented any evidence, even
> expert testimony. You have not. You
> yourself admit that you didn't want to type
> in your alledged evidence because you were
> too lazy to sit there for an hour and do so.
> And at least one of your `experts' himself
> clearly indicates that he doesn't believe as
> you claim he does. You're caught in a lie
> here, Darryl. I hope your Deity is proud of
> you for the dishonesty.
>
>Second Strawman: that what you presented was FACT, as
> presented by experts, when in reality what
> you have presented is an opinion of what
> may be expert opinion, and nothing more.
> This I just verified with a friend of mine
> who is a deputy district attorney.
>
>When you get that evidence, cite it for us, rather than just
>telling us that some people believe as you do. That is
>hearsay, and NOT evidence.
>
> dg> This is just a small sampling of some of the evidence
> dg> that I have for the existence of God.
>RS> Which God?
> RS> You have no clear concept of what evidence is supposed to
> RS> be, do you?
>dg> I seem to have a better concept of it than you.
>
>Not based on the fact that you said you presented evidence,
>when you have not, that you have presented expert testimony
>when you have presented your opinion of possible expert
>opinion, that none of your cited experts appear to be
>justifiably included among the ranks of experts in that
>field, and when one of them even has an opinion contrary to
>what you claim his expert opinion is. Debunked.
>
> dg> I daresay, for those of you who insist that
> dg> there's no evidence for the existence of God,
>RS> Which God?
> dg> that there's actually much more evidence for His
>RS> Who?
> dg> existence than there is for yours.
>RS> Untrue. Here is evidence of my existence, a post made by me
>RS> and signed by me, personally, both times. Got a post
>RS> directly from your Deity, made by your Deity, signed by your
>RS> Deity? Beware, we expect a hoax.
>
>dg> Two points could be made here:
>
>dg> First of all, your post could be nothing more than a
>dg> random jumble of electrons which just happened to be
>dg> flowing through the correct telephone wires at some
>dg> time.
>
>Then you would be getting upset at nothing, and talking to
>yourself, right? Tell me how a random jumble of electrons
>(in and of itself an impossibility . . . electrons, because
>of their charge, cannot be `jumbled') got started. Did your
>Deity start them? If so, then I am the voice of your Deity,
>and you are contradicting me.
>
>dg> (There's about as much chance of that happening as there
>dg> is of the universe just spontaneously "creating"
>dg> itself.)
>
>Oh my. A trap. A pathetic trap. But a trap nonetheless.
>
>Who ever said the universe created itself? For the universe
>to do that, it would have to be sentient. Sad and lonely
>strawman that time, Darryl.
>
>Thank you for admitting that my message came from me. I
>never doubted it for a second.
>
>dg> Secondly, yes, I DO have such a message from my God.
>dg> It's called the BIBLE.
>
>Was it written by your Deity? (Shall I presume that we are
>still talking about YHVH here?) Was it made by your Deity?
>Did your Deity sign it? Did your Deity give it to you
>directly, personally?
>
>We're back around away from your strawman (does Richard
>exist?) to the real meat of the problem: does your Deity
>exist. So far, you've given no evidence for it. Please do
>so. Or be a coward. Your choice. But we're all watching.
Well, there you are, Darryl. EVIDENCE that you're a liar,
here in front of everyone. That sound you hear is laughter.
Enjoy it. It's yours.
... Slaughter is mostly laughter. How odd.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Darryl Gonzalez
|Sub: dumb religious darryl
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:05:16
EID:c95e 2282b0a0
REPLY: 1:383/6293 33375677
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33431e6c
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Darryl Gonzalez said to Dan Ceppa about dumb religious darryl:
dg> You totally missed the point, Mark. My point there was
dg> that most of the people on this echo will refuse to
dg> listen to any evidence or argument no matter what I do.
dg> That point had nothing to do with reading the Bible at
dg> all.
DC> But of course it does, Darryl, Darryl and your other
DC> brother, Darryl
dg> Dan,
dg> Sometimes I question whether you CAN even read. Check
dg> out the original message, pal!
That's okay, snookums . . . we're all the time questioning
why you don't think.
DC> You are using your "god written" bible out as evidence.
dg> I didn't do that in the original message. Can you
dg> even read, Dan?
Got any evidence that you didn't do that? If not, Dan may
be correct, since you decided not to quote the relevant part
of the original post.
DC> Provide the evidence that your god exists before you
DC> make the silly-assed claim that it was written by your
DC> "god".
* ATTENTION: Please note the extreme gyrations that Darryl *
* goes through to avoid answering the challenge. Kids, do *
* not try these at home, they should only be attempted by a *
* brain-dead fundy . . . *
dg> Once again I must ask if you can even read.
Note how this is not evidence.
dg> I listed four different items which backed both the
dg> existence of God and the reliability of the Bible.
Note how this is not evidence.
... If God didn't exist, people wouldn't hypothesize his presence.Gonzalez
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: All
|Sub: Cracker Barrel Boycott
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:15:18
EID:a2df 2282b1e0
REPLY: 1:383/6293 33375835
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 334320c6
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Darryl Gonzalez said to Judith Bandsma about Re: CRACKER
BARREL BOYCOT:
ky> Your creator wouldn't be worth you worshipping Him?
JB>^^^^
ky> That's like
JB> You better back off on this type shit. In one post you
JB> go on and on about how you are 'just telling people'
JB> and not forcing stuff on them.
JB> You KNOW that Dan doesn't believe the same as you do,
JB> so WHY are you trying to include him in your myths?
dg> But God (YHWH)
Was that (YHVH) or (YAWN)?
dg> IS Dan's creator, Judith,
YHVH is the entity that impregnated Dan's mother? Man, then
THAT'S why he's GOD DAN! I had missed THAT part of the
legend. Thanx for confirming it for me. It's almost
exactly like the life of Christ, don't you think?
dg> whether Dan wants to recognize him as such or not.
Why should Dan recognize him . . . he was just a spermatazoa
at the time. Don't be totally stupid.
dg> Just as He is YOURS.
God Dan and Judith are related, are in actuality siblings?!
Then that must mean that she's Goddess Judith! Wow! And to
think that I was here when this whole thing unfolded!
dg> Were they myths, I would not make a point of sharing
dg> them with as many people as I can.
Who, God Dan and Goddess Judith? They're not myths, They're
real, we read Their stuff here everyday.
dg> I do not try to include Dan, or you, or anyone else
dg> in a bunch of myths.
Good, you at last recognize their divinity. Good deal.
Though you should be more respectful and call them God Dan
and Goddess Judith.
dg> I think Ken agrees.
About God Dan and Goddess Judith? I imagine he might.
dg> But I do try to share the truth with them, so that they
dg> can believe it, serve God, and be saved.
But now we've got two Deities, so that'll cut the waiting
time in half! Whatta deal!
... If your barcalounger is smarter than you are, you might
... be over 50
... According to Darryl Gonzalez having slaves's okay if you treat them
ok
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 02 Apr 97 22:28:20
EID:022c 2282b380
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d767c
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 334323d4
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dougie Schwandt said to Judith Bandsma about ACLU News 01-30-97: C:
ds> I see religious freedom being violated. If the student
ds> wants to pray, s/he should be free to.
JB> And they can...they just can't force it on the rest or
JB> disrupt the class.
ds> In a country where the majority supposedly rules, I see
ds> a gross
JB> Subject to constitutional rules protecting the RIGHTS
JB> of the minorities.
ds> inconsistency here. If the Moslems wanted to erect a
ds> display for Ramadan or one of their other holy days,
ds> it's not likely that the Government would object. They
ds> couldn't. It'd be unconstitutional!
JB> If it was on government property, yes they could
JB> object. Doesn't matter WHAT the religion is,
JB> establishment is prohibited.
ds> You must be referring to something other than what is
ds> meant by establishment.
You don't think she means the establishment of a precedent?
Said precedent would then work towards establishing a
standard, don't you see? (Of course you don't, you don't
think at all. Whatever was I thinking of . . . )
Exactly why are you against the Constitution of this country
in favor of your religion?
ds> The Constitution says that Congress shall make no law
ds> RESPECTING one religion over the other. Also, that no
ds> State church would be established.
Not exactly:
Article I.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the
right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition
the Government for a redress of grievances.
ds> Allowing a group to erect a religious
ds> display on gevernment property is NOT "establishment."
Bullshit, it establishes a precedent. Ask a lawyer.
ds> It is "permission." The group has already been
ds> established.
Judith said nothing at all about establishing a group,
dickless.
ds> Once you allow one to do it, you have to allow ALL to
ds> do it.
JB> Exactly! Why do christians think that they shouldn't
JB> be included in that though?
ds> In some situations, it is just too unwieldy.
??? The Constitution works for you. If you find it
unwieldy, perhaps you need to find another government to be
part of.
... the ten commandments should be . . . in the constitution.Jim Germiquet
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 02 Apr 97 23:20:22
EID:022c 2282ba80
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d767d
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33433006
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dougie Schwandt said to Judith Bandsma about ACLU News 01-30-97: C:
ds> such as the Church of England, as opposed to disallowing
ds> governmental participation in and SUPPORT OF religious
ds> freedoms in America.***
JB> You better go read some history, then. Most of the
JB> framers of the Constitution wanted to keep religion out
JB> of government as much (if not more) than they wanted to
JB> keep government out of religion.
ds> I was quite the student of history when I was in school.
ds> Has it changed any since I last read up?
Do you read it more often than every ten years? Have you
read the letters of Jefferson, Franklin, etc.? If so, then
you would have seen their contempt for the possibility of
state-run religion. If you haven't, then you need to do so,
before you speak more ignorance and make yourself look
sillier than you look now.
Here's some quotes for you to chew on:
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if
there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than
that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
American president
Concise Columbia Dictionary of Quotations.
" Through most of his presidency Washington did not go to
church except on special occasions. Neither Jefferson nor
Franklin regularly went to church either. John Adams did.
Alexander Hamilton during most of his life did not.
" Claims that the Founding Fathers were particularly religious
are plainly false. While virtually all believed in the divinity of
Christ, most remained somewhat skeptical of religion and usually
referred ambiguously in correspondence to Providence rather than to
Christ Himself or God. Debunker Rupert Hughes reports that in
political matters Washington went out of his way to avoid invoking
the authority of Christ. When the Continental Congress in 1776
decreed a day of fasting and prayer `to confess and bewail our
manifold sins . . . through the merits and mediation of Jesus
Christ ,' Washington omitted the reference to Christ when he
repeated the admonition to his troops. In his dying hours
Washington, a self-styled deist, never mentioned God or religion,
and he left no money for religious causes in his will.
" Franklin is said to have believed in the divinity of Christ
but is also reported to have thought that there might be other gods
as well . . .
" But he [Jefferson] also thought Christ's statements were
`defective' because when he was crucified, He hadn't yet reached
his peak development as a thinker."
-- Legends, Lies & Cherished Myths of American History by Richard
Shenkman, ISBN 0-06-097261-0, page 25.
" Unlike the Puritans, the Pilgrims were a heterogeneous group,
divided, as they put it, between saints and strangers. The saints
journeyed to America for religious reasons, the strangers in hopes
of improving their fortunes. Of the two groups, the saints were in
the minority, forming only about a third of the Mayflower's
passengers and crew."
" That the Saints among the Pilgrims sought religious liberty is
true, but the impression has been given that they were seeking it
here because it had been denied them in Europe. This is untrue.
While the Saints had been persecuted in England, they hadn't lived
in England for a dozen years. They had been living in Holland, and
in Holland they enjoyed complete freedom of worship."
-- "I Love Paul Revere, Whether He Rode or Not" by Richard
Shenkman, ISBN 0-06-016346-1, pages 20-1.
" The disillusioning truth seems to be that Americans in general
in the seventeenth century were far too busy breaking land and
building homes to worry much about religion. Butler reports that
Virginia was `known for irreligion and indifference,' that Maryland
was famous for its `stunning secularity,' that South Carolina build
only a few churches, and that North Carolina built none. Further,
few children seem to have been baptized, and ministers were often
in short supply."
-- "I Love Paul Revere, Whether He Rode or Not" by Richard
Shenkman, ISBN 0-06-016346-1, page 22.
" Troubling, too, to those who like Puritans simple and
straitlaced, is that they had a weird fascination for folk magic
and the occult . . .
" If by chance the magicians or sorcerers or fortune-tellers
happened to slip into inactivity, there were always the
astrologers. Every community had its own astrologer, and every
astrologer had a bagful of predictions based on the signs of the
zodiac . . ."
-- "I Love Paul Revere, Whether He Rode or Not" by Richard
Shenkman, ISBN 0-06-016346-1, page 23.
" The belief that the United States was founded as a Christian
nation is held by those who think it's in danger of coming under
the influence of non-Christians. But the fact is it never was a
`Christian nation,' except in the most literal sense that most of
the people in it were Christian. Not a word is said about
Christianity in the Constitution. Nor is it mentioned in the
Declaratin of Independence. The Declaration refers only to
`nature's God.'
" As for the beliefs of the founding fathers, the remarkable
thing is not that so many believed in Christianity but that so many
expressed doubts about it. Alfred Aldridge has shown that Ben
Franklin never believed in the divinity of Christ and as a young
man he toyed with polytheism. Fank Manuel reports that as an old
man John Adams became fascinated with paganism, and spent the
better part of a year slugging through the twelve volumes of
Charles Francois Dupuis's history of the origins of religion, which
advanced the heretical idea that Christianity and paganism stem
from common fertility myths. Adams never abandoned his faith in
Christianity, but was troubled enough by Dupuis's account to
suggest that a reward `in medals of diamonds' should be offered to
anybody able to refute him.
" Thomas Jefferson believed in God and considered himself a
Christian, but he seemed to reject the divinity of Christ and
considered Calvin's sermons blasphemous. Alexander Hamilton, both
at the beginning of his life and near the end, expressed faith in
Christianity, but during the revolutionary period he was utterly
indifferent to it. Ethan Allen derided Christian revelations as
either deceptive or `spurious.' Thomas Paine condemned the
`monstrous belief' that God had ever spoken to man. George
Washington, though he belonged to the Episcopal church, never
mentioned Christ in any of his writings and he was a deist."
-- "I Love Paul Revere, Whether He Rode or Not" by Richard
Shenkman, ISBN 0-06-016346-1, pages 27-8.
" Certainly the founders weren't hostile either to religion or
the clergy as, say, the French revolutionaries were soon to become.
But neither did they insist, one and all, that religion was a
pillar of liberty. Indeed, many of the most illustrious founders
plainly rejected the idea. Historian John Diggins say those
involved in writing and defending the Constitution, men like James
Madison and Alexander Hamilton, `expressed profound ambivalence
about religion, often seeing it as a divisive rather than
cohesive.' And some of those who later came to believe in the
necessity of religion, such as Adams, originally thought
religiosity was of little matter. Adams said in 1787 that `Neither
Philosophy, nor Religion, nor Morality' can govern people `against
their Vanity, their Pride, their Resentment or Revenge'; `Nothing
but Force and Power and Strength can restrain them.'"
-- "I Love Paul Revere, Whether He Rode or Not" by Richard
Shenkman, ISBN 0-06-016346-1, page 29.
ds> If I understand correctly, the Ten Commandments are
ds> shared by Moslems, Christians and Jews alike. They are
ds> NOT purely a "Christian thing."
JB> They aren't a 'Jewish' or 'Moslem' -thing-, either.
JB> Based on the code of Hammurabi and older.
ds> Well, fortunately there is MUCH MORE to the Jewish Law
ds> than the Ten Commandments.
Indeed, but I note no chagrin on your realization that the
Decalogue (quote it for me if you know it) comes from
earlier sources, at least one of which predates the worship
of YHVH . . . in other words, other Gods.
ds> "Thou shalt not steal," as he is handed a sentence for
ds> two to five years in prison for burglary.
JB> You are SO full of shit. A court is a secular
JB> institution. People know why they are in court. If they
JB> wanted a sermon, they'd be in church.
ds> Maybe if they had gone to church, they wouldn't be in
ds> court!
You mean like Mother Theresa?
JB> I watch you and others like you get all hyped up about
JB> neo-pagans and witche and harmless games like D&D. And
JB> then you turn around and say...well, if it was OUR
JB> magic, saying these words would eliminate everything
JB> we're afraid of in this life.
ds> I have never said that at ANY time, here or anywhere
ds> else. I would consult with a few psychologists before
ds> I declared D&D harmless, though. Information I have
ds> come across has stated that this game CAN cause
ds> significant personality changes in some people.
Then you won't mind sharing your source on this, rather than
just spreading bullshit?
ds> Talk about unconstitutional agendas! Almost every time
ds> I turn on the 700 Club I hear of some school district
ds> osomewhere that has suspended
JB> Oh that's a real reliable source. Haven't you ever
JB> noticed that dear Pat never bothers to mention where
JB> and why?
ds> Oh, yes he has! So has Mark Sekulow, the chief Counsel
ds> for the American Center for Law and Justice! They
ds> definitely name names!
Then name some names and places and citations for us, unless
you don't have that information. Got ANY evidence for ANY
of the BULLSHIT you spread, Dougie?
ds> students for the heinous crime of bringing their Bibles
ds> to school, talking to other students about Jesus, or
ds> even reading their Bibles when they have a free moment
ds> apart from their schoolwork! Who cares about the
ds> Constitution? You folks have the NEA!
JB> Sounds really bad when Pat tells it. But some of his
JB> claims have been investigated and found to be true...to
JB> a point. He doesn't bother to tell you that the kid
JB> suspended for bringing the bible to school was
JB> suspended for hitting another student over the head
JB> with it in an effort to 'drive the devil' out of him.
JB> Or that the 'talking' to other students about Jesus was
JB> done in the schoolyard at the top of the child's lungs
JB> and also consisted of calling the teachers of the
JB> school 'whores'. We know all about Pat Robertson's
JB> claims...and what he manages to leave OUT.
ds> And THAT sounds like cheap fabrication to me.
Of course it would, Dougie. You don't want to admit the
truth.
ds> If a student were to hit another over the head with a
ds> book, he or she wouldn't wait until they had a Bible
ds> in their hand to do it.
But they would if they already had it in their hands.
ds> Kids are kids - immature, and emotional. A lot of times
ds> they get so caught up in what they are doing that they
ds> lose control. Would you like it any better if they were
ds> discussing another subject and the same things happened?
So it's okay that they did those things, as long as they did
it for the Lard?
ds> student careers are threatened if they participate. It
ds> could be a LOT worse! Instead of holding hands and
ds> praying at the flagpole, they
JB> You talking about the kids who were suspended because
JB> they refused to go to class? They were disciplined for
JB> refusal to go to their classrooms at the start of the
JB> school day.
ds> The "See you at the pole" prayer event is held well
ds> prior to the beginning of the school day.
Exactly when? And why was it mentioned on CNN then?
ds> More fabrication.
Only on your part, Dougie.
ds> educators to rid the classrooms, the schools and the
ds> community of ANY KIND of religious upbringing.
JB> Religion belongs in the home, the
JB> church/synagog/temple. Not in the diverse environment
JB> of a public school. There is little enough time now for
JB> the education of the young and you would further
JB> pollute that with superstition.
ds> There is no superstition in the faith that I have.
Sure, , Darryl, whatever you say . . .
ds> Religion belongs in the heart of those who choose to
ds> follow it, wherever that person happens to be.
Then they should have no trouble keeping it in there and out
of the schools, right?
... Xtian Uses #1: Clean meat in case of cannibalism.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 02 Apr 97 23:26:24
EID:c8e7 2282bb40
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d767e
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33433170
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dougie Schwandt said to Karl Schneider about A Toast to Dracula.:
MG> Then why does the famous creationist Laurie Appleton say:
ds> Now, the question is this: did you KNOW the above
ds> information, or did you honestly (and mistakenly!!!)
ds> think that Laurie was actually tooling around with old
ds> "Give 'em hell Harry?"
KS> You stupid shithead, that is precisely what he CLAIMED.
DS> I think I even read that post. I saw NOTHING of that
DS> type of claim in there.
Then you didn't see it. What Karl and several others are
saying is true: Laurums confused Harry Truman from Mt. St.
Helens with the expresident of the same name, and referred
to the former as the latter.
ds> It IS easy to misread, though, isn't it, Karl?
We see you do it every day, don't we Dougie?
... Laurie Appleton: Blacks and Caucasians are separate species.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: A Toast to Dracula.
|Date: 02 Apr 97 23:31:26
EID:c8e7 2282bbe0
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d767f
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3343329e
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dougie Schwandt said to Judith Bandsma about A Toast to Dracula.:
ds> you honestly (and mistakenly!!!) think that Laurie was
ds> actually tooling around with old "Give 'em hell Harry?"
JB> Laurie SAID (which you would have seen if you'd bothered)
JB> that he toured Mt. St. Helens with FORMER PRESIDENT Harry
JB> Truman.
JB> When reminded of the fact that by the time that mountain
JB> was a danger, Truman (pres-type) had been dead for a
JB> decade, Laurums backed off.
ds> Have you ever heard of "tongue in cheek?"
LOL . . . didn't you just say to Karl that it didn't happen,
yet here you're clearly implying that it DID happen but that
Laurums was tring to be funny.
Who's lying now, Dougster?
JB> We like to pick on liars, Doug. I guess that's why
JB> you're getting so much mail this go-round.
ds> My host node only receives 300 messages a day from this
ds> echo. I received 6 (2%). I guess the statistics are
ds> in my favor that I am not a liar.
Doubtful. If you're a true point, then you should get all
of them. You certainly manage to answer more than six a
day, and I know for a fact that I wrote you more than six
today. Plus, as we've seen in other posts, you DON'T think
twice about lying.
Debunked, Dougster. Just another Liar for the Lard.
... "heaps upon heaps"?-M.Leipzig//A heap is a heap is a heap.-D. Schwandt
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C
|Date: 02 Apr 97 23:44:28
EID:022c 2282bd80
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d7680
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 334335ac
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dougie Schwandt said to Karl Schneider about ACLU News 01-30-97: C:
ds> problem, there's always "sharing the load." ALL
ds> students should be KS>ds>called upon to lead the
ds> class in prayer, a different one every day.
KS> All forty five thousand? There would be no time
KS> for education. Which would probably suit you
KS> just fine.
ds> There is not a school in the country with 45,000
ds> students, except maybe for LARGE universities! Every
ds> school has classrooms, and every classroom has students
ds> in attendance at some point in the day. If class size
ds> averages 30 students, each student in each class could
ds> lead the class in prayer once a day and there would
ds> actually be time left for learning! And, at six weeks
ds> (roughly), the cycle will repeat itself.
VERY roughly . . . your math is WAY off. Let's just
consider a primary school, grades K-6. That's just seven
levels right there. Every school I've ever been at has had
at least two of every grade, sometimes three. But, just to
be conservative, let's just say that there are two of every
grade. That would be 14 classrooms. If we accept your
figure of 30 students per, that would leave at least 420
students.
Now, there are three months vacation at most schools, so
let's say that's about 90 days. Then there are about
15-25 days of holidays (A week for Xmas, a week for
Thanksgiving, etc.) a year. Let's compromise and say 20.
Then there are two days every week that aren't used in
schools, Saturday and Sunday. That's another 72 days. The
total of days not useful for classes then is about 182. So
that only leaves 183.25 days per year for education. If we
let each of the students do their prayer every day, it would
take well over two school years to do all of them, and
thusly some wouldn't get done. And that wouldn't be fair,
would it?
... Sanity is not statistical. -George Orwell
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 1/
|Date: 02 Apr 97 23:46:30
EID:2f95 2282bdc0
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d7684
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33433626
Is there a reason, you stupid fuck, that you will repost an
entire post of someone else's without saying or adding one
thing? What a pissant.
... Hi, I'm Doug Schwandt, and I'm the poster child for Harpy Pies . . .
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 1/
|Date: 02 Apr 97 23:57:32
EID:2f95 2282bf20
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d7686
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 334338bc
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dougie Schwandt said to Karen Davis about ACLU News 01-30-97: C 1/2:
KD> Moslems can erect any display they like on private property.
KD> Same with Christians, Jews, and atheists. They may not use
KD> public land to create the feeling of public support for
KD> their religion.
DS> The PUBLIC is not the GOVERNMENT.
Wrong, o smegma breath.
DS> You, as a representative of the "State," CANNOT lead the
DS> class in prayer without giving the appearance of the State
DS> offering religious support.
KD> Correct - nor can I use my authority to establish the
KD> same practice by simply handing off the leadership to a
KD> child.
DS> The practice would not be "established." It would be ALLOWED.
Wrong again, Dougie. It WOULD establish a precedent. You
DO know what a precedent is, don't you?
precedent (pres'i-dnt) --noun
1. Something that may be used as an example in dealing
with subsequent similar cases.
2. Convention or custom.
--adjective: precedent (pri-sEEd'nt, pres'i-dnt)
Preceding; prior.
ds> The practice has already BEEn established.
Evidence, please.
ds> It has been SUSPENDED for quite a while, though.
Evidence, please, chowderhead.
KD> Here's an excellent analogy. The practice of the flag
KD> salute is fully established in my classroom. To the
KD> extent that at the appropriate point in the routine, all
KD> I say is the flag monitor's name. S/he leads the flag
KD> salute without my saying a further word unless
KD> discipline is required. Have I completely relinquished
KD> my authority, there? Or am I simply establishing a
KD> practice with MY authority, and *allowing* children to
KD> lead it for a variety of reasons?
DS> OK, what is the difference between ALLOWING the
DS> children to to practice the flag salute and ALLOWING
DS> them to pray?
We don't worship the flag, do we Homer?
___ _____
.'/,-Y" "~-.
l.Y ^.
/\ _\_ ____ XXXXXXX XXXXXX X X X
i ___/" "\ X X X X X X X
: /" "\ o ! X X X X XXXXXX X
l ] o !__./ X X X X X X X
\ _ _ \.___./ XXXXXXX XXXXXX X X X
X \/ \ ___./
: \ ___. _..--~~" ~`-. .
` Z,-- / ` .
\__. ( / _____) .
\ /-----~~" ) ................
Y \ /
= "x______.^
= \
j Y
... Hmmm... Ren & Stimpy, Beevis & Butthead, Jock Itch & Doug Schwandt...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Doug Schwandt
|Sub: ACLU News 01-30-97: C 2/
|Date: 02 Apr 97 23:59:34
EID:df95 2282bf60
REPLY: 1:283/120.0 219d7687
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33433936
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Doug Schwandt said to Karen Davis about ACLU News 01-30-97: C 2/2:
DS> You seem to forget that for a LOT LONGER than the current
DS> practice has existed, RELIGIOUS LIFE was a VERY INTEGRAL
DS> PART of American education! In fact, American Education
DS> was BASED ON THE BIBLE!
Evidence, please.
... According to Dougie Schwandt, God can be a stero or a television set.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: The Jesus was homosexual
|Date: 03 Apr 97 19:39:36
EID:cb0a 22839ce0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33444dc8
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Lube Boy said to Christopher Hughes about The Jesus was homosex:
CH> If you don't think that the people in power are doing
CH> what is right, stand up and speak out against them.
CH> Don't sit on your arse and say "Oh well, too bad."
ky> Well, I certainly don't. I cannot say I think it does
ky> much good, but I have called my Congressmen and
ky> Senators often, and made my voice heard. Now, I think
ky> it is time for me to start taking the next steps.
Going to buy a rifle and find a book repository?
Or buy some fertilizer and start scoping out federal office
buildings?
... God told me to skin you alive -- Dead Kennedys
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Re: ...
|Date: 03 Apr 97 18:35:38
EID:c6bd 22839460
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33443eca
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Ken Young said to Quentin Fai about Re: ...:
QF> It wasn't *that* much of a sacrifice. He's still alive,
QF> after all.
ky> Uh, you try being crucified in that way, and see if
ky> you like it very much.
I note that you don't actually respond to Quentin's issue
here. Afraid?
QF> Three hours would be an utterly insignificant amount
QF> of time to an immortal being.
ky> But Jesus was not in an immortal form. You seem to
ky> forget, he came here as a man.
So you admit that he wasn't your God. Got any evidence that
he existed at all?
... If a guy loves an animal does that mean he wants to try beastiality?KY
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Katherine Wintersnight
|Sub: alignment list.
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:46:40
EID:ad73 22838dc0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33443350
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Katherine Wintersnight said to Ken Whines about alignment list.:
KW> The correction is done.
kw> p.s. My alias is Jim Goodman...Don't tell Richard Smith,
kw> though. I think he already knows. :) I like irritating
kw> that boy. He is so easily irritable.
KW> This information has been inserted--you can view the
KW> list at it's permanent home at
KW> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3158/cat.html
Whines is just mad because someone saw through his
`cleaverness' . . . And, no, that's not a typo. People
with any intellect are recipient of cleverness; people like
Whines are as bright as a kitchen tool.
... A little ignorance goes a long way. - Ken Wiens, a case in point . .
.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Rod Swift
|Sub: Truth got you down?
|Date: 03 Apr 97 16:51:42
EID:fb0c 22838660
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3344266e
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Rod Swift said to Jim Staal about Truth got you down?:
RodS> So Jesus fucks you up the ass without a condom and
RodS> his Holy Sperm lives within you. No wonder you're
RodS> so resistive to wanting to leave your gay loverboy
RodS> deity construct! :)
js> May your lips be seared with hot coals, blasphemer!
FR> What's the matter, pretty boy?
js> Well, thankyou, Fred. I'm glad you find me attractive.
FR> The depiction is accurate, you know.
js> No, more the substance of a very twisted, tormented
js> gay mind.
RodS> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Jim thinks Fredric is
RodS> GAY! Haahhahahaahahhahaahah!
RodS> Hohohohaohahahhheheheeh! Hahahhahaahah!
It's wish fulfillment on Jimson's part. He's apparently had
a love-hate relationship with Fredric for years.
RodS> I'm sorry. That's just too good :)
Man, if he EVER comes out of the closet, there'll be SUCH a
backdraft . . .
... Sure, I've got time-Jimson Staalin <-?Oops!-> buttfuck?-Fredric Rice
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Colorado School of Mines
|Date: 03 Apr 97 15:11:44
EID:f203 22837960
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3341155d
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 33440f00
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Don Martin said to Georgie Harper about Colorado School of Mines:
DM> As promised, I forwarded your assertion about evidence
DM> for the Flood being in the archives of this school to a
DM> professor of Geology there. This was in my email this
DM> morning:
DM> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
DM> From: Jerry D. Higggins
DM> To: Don Martin, PhD
DM> Subject: Re: Interesting Rumor about the School of Mines
DM> Date: Monday, March 31, 1997 5:22PM
DM> Dear Dr. Martin,
DM> I don't have a clue as to what evidence for the "Great
DM> Flood" is in our library. I am not aware of any such
DM> archival holdings. I would like to know the specifics
DM> that Mr. Harper 's claim.
DM> Jerry Higgins, Ph.D., P.G.
DM> Assoc. Prof. of Geology & Geological Engr.
Fancy that. Georgie lied through his teeth. What's the
odds of that happening?
Excellent post. Put a grin on my face you can't imagine.
Maybe Georgie meant the Colorado School of Mimes. But don't
bother asking, those people won't say shit about anything
. . . };)
... I do believe that mindlessly accepting an ancient myth is thinking.-GH
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Georgie Harper
|Sub: Colorado School of Mines
|Date: 03 Apr 97 15:17:46
EID:738d 22837a20
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3344106a
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Don Martin said to George Harper about Colorado School of Mines:
DM> As promised, I forwarded your assertion about evidence
DM> for the Flood being in the archives of this school to a
DM> professor of Geology there. This was in my email this
DM> morning:
DM> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
JH> From: Jerry D. Higggins
JH> To: Don Martin, PhD
JH> Subject: Re: Interesting Rumor about the School of Mines
JH> Date: Monday, March 31, 1997 5:22PM
JH> Dear Dr. Martin,
JH> I don't have a clue as to what evidence for the "Great
JH> Flood" is in our library. I am not aware of any such
JH> archival holdings. I would like to know the specifics that
JH> Mr. Harper 's claim.
JH> Jerry Higgins, Ph.D., P.G.
JH> Assoc. Prof. of Geology & Geological Engr.
JH> At 11:15 AM 3/27/97 PST, you wrote:
DM>Dear Dr. Higgins,
DM> Perhaps you may find this amusing enough to be of some
DM>assistance regarding the archival holdings of the Colorado
DM>School of Mines. On FidoNet's HolySmoke echo, one George
DM>Harper hath made so bold as to assert:
DM>GH> Because someone asked: Geological evidence of the
DM>GH> Great Flood can be found in the archives at the Colorado
DM>GH> School Of Mines, as well as in several of the nation's
DM>GH> leading Musae of Natural History. The items in the
DM>GH> Musae are matters of public record.
DM> As a faculty member there (plucked at random, but
DM>slowly, slowly, from the Web page list) you may perhaps be
DM>in the position of knowing whether that amazing news were
DM>true.
DM> The School has been very quiet about it, if so.
DM> I would appreciate hearing from you and will quote your
DM>reply, whatever it is, in full on that echo.
DM>Very truly yours
DM>Don Martin
DM> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
DM> So, George, the man asks for details. Got any? The place
DM> where you heard this (one begins to suspect the Weekly World
DM> News) might be a start, or the name of the researcher who
DM> has assembled this "geological evidence" that the professor
DM> of geology on the scene is not aware of.
Or is it just as we've suspected, Georgie . . . that you're
just a Liar for your Lard?
... How's THAT for scientific (Actually EMPIRIC) evidence? -Georgie Harper
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Arrogance
|Date: 03 Apr 97 15:23:48
EID:0440 22837ae0
REPLY: 1:229/622 3341b62a
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 334411d4
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Dave Hamilton said to Georgie Harper about ARROGANCE:
gh> *YOU* are calling *ME* "dumbass?
DH> Yes, I believe he was.
And a MOST astute statement it was, too . . .
gh> My choice of religion pays off if it's the right one, OR
gh> the "wrong" one... Because I opt to believe that
gh> Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Ghost are the ONE REAL
gh> God...as long as I continue in this belief, and fulfill
gh> all it's precepts...I go to Heaven. Since it is my
gh> firm intent to do just that, I WILL go to Heaven.
DH> And, By God, you're going there whether it exists or
DH> not, right?
Damn it, he'll MAKE Heaven if he *has* to!
(Worst case of testosterone poisoning that I've ever seen.
-- Ivonova , Babylon 5)
gh> Oh, by the way, I win Pascal's Wager...everyone who
gh> loses, payment is due...Hale Bopp is coming!
Actually, Hale-Bopp is past us now, still continuing it's
slow slide down towards the sun. It WILL be back up,
though, as it heads back to the rear of the solar system
and beyond.
DH> We've noticed. And this means exactly?
The greys are returning his brain.
... Georgie Harper: women can hear weeping from their secret places.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
* Origin: Cry-baby, cry-baby . . . (1:203/9046)
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|From: Richard Smith
|To: Marilyn Burge
|Sub: Exemplifying examples 1/
|Date: 03 Apr 97 15:34:50
EID:3f11 22837c40
REPLY: 1:105/302.666 51caefc0
MSGID: 1:203/9046.0 3344146a
RIP Verna Mae Russell 1911-96
Marilyn Burge said to Karl Schneider about Exemplifying examples 1/:
RS> Certainly. So why complain about homosexuals and abortion?
RS> If you don't want a homosexual, don't seek one out. If you
RS> it that you claim that people digging in their backyards
RS> can hear sounds originating from Hell, when we've managed
RS> to drill over a mile into the Earth?
KS> Actually, I have personally assisted in drilling wells over
KS> 20,000 feet deep...
MB> Did you hear the screams of the damned?
Just the ones he drilled through . . .
... I don't want anybody coming at my who-who with a drill. -- Lea DeLaria
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENC
|Date: 03 Apr 97 03:59:22
EID:2a55 22831f60
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33437f7a
REPLY: 1:229/622.0 333d7e32
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Judith Bandsma said this to me about EDUCATIONAL
EXPERIENC
G'day Judith,
MO>> 011:021 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth
MO>> upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap
JB> He actually tried to tell me that HIS bible says 6 (six). He also
He virtually accused me of editing the KJV. What a fucknut.
JB> that bats have hollow bones and are therefore really birds and rabbits
JB> chew their cud.
So I saw. Damn near fell out of my chair laughing when I saw that. :) He
really doesn't have a clue.
JB> I have a mold for a boob cup. I think I'm going to make about a dozen
JB> them and they can be awarded to different participants at the
JB> convention. Boobs for the boobs.
Now *this* sounds like a top idea. We could have boob of the week. Boob
of
the month etc.. We could even have retrospective boobs for past
foolishness.
Catchya,
#holysmoke: Fleagle | Whaddya mean I ain't kind? | A4000/030 14megs
irc.another.net | Just not your kind! - Megadeth | Feces occurrus
moneill@erebor.apana.org.au
... I am, therefore I think, I think...
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Ken Young
|Sub: Kosher and Gentiles
|Date: 03 Apr 97 04:07:55
EID:6006 228320e0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 3343817b
REPLY: 1:270/420.0 333edf9e
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Ken Young said this to me about Kosher and
Gentiles
[door knocking religious fruitcakes]
MO>> on *my* door and disturbing *my* peace is harrassment. I don't knock
on
MO>> their door with the intention of sharing/forcing my beliefs. Simple.
KY> How would one get the materials, if those materials aren't offered to
KY> him? FIrst a person must be told about something, before they can
KY> decide whether they want it or not.
You must really think we're idiots. Are you telling me that I have no idea
of what is on offer when some dickbrain with a $200 smile and cheap
3-piece suit knocks at my door ready to pass out religious literature?
Please, Jelly, contrary to what your opinion is of us "heathens", we are
not stupid. I don't think anyone in here would have great difficulty
seeking out pamphlets/information if the need ever presented itself. Don't
be ridiculous.
KY> Then, using your logic, it would also be wrong for a gay activist
KY> group, for example, to try to pass out materials on what their agenda
KY> is, as well.
Gay groups are part of an oppressed minority. Fruitcakes like you
experience no such oppression. I have evidence of this fact but I doubt
you'd acknowledge it.
#holysmoke: Fleagle | Whaddya mean I ain't kind? | A4000/030 14megs
irc.another.net | Just not your kind! - Megadeth | Feces occurrus
moneill@erebor.apana.org.au
... Yes, I've tried my hand at sex.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Graham Drummond
|Sub: How about 1-on-1?
|Date: 03 Apr 97 17:45:44
EID:9a77 22838da0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 33444128
REPLY: 3:640/375@fidonet 3342bb4c
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Graham Drummond said this to me about How
about 1-on-1?
G'day Graham,
MO>> Shit mate. Sorry. :( I thought you'd got it from somewhere. I still
MO>> have the original message here.
GD> Ah, yeah, I guess I wasn't clear about it. :) I've also changed
GD> it a bit since I sent it to you (at the time it was a work in
GD> progress.)
Any chance of getting the update? Or maybe posting it here?
GD>> Oh, and it's called Merciless.
MO>> I call it brilliant.
GD> Thanks. I was inspired by Martin Walkyier.
For those not in the know, Martin Walkyier was the lead vocalist/song
writer for British thrash metal band, Sabbat, now lead vocalist for
Skyclad. An extremely clever man.
MO>> I'll buy you a rumbo as a "Fuck I'm sorry mate!"
MO>> when I see you next. :-)
GD> Sounds good to me mate. All's well that ends well, and if it ends
GD> with me having a free rumbo, then it's well. :)
:-) I thought you'd say that.
Catchya,
#holysmoke: Fleagle | Whaddya mean I ain't kind? | A4000/030 14megs
irc.another.net | Just not your kind! - Megadeth | Feces occurrus
moneill@erebor.apana.org.au
... Roman Catholicism is a Satanic caricature of Christ's Church.
- John 'JFK' Prewett
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Book
|Date: 04 Apr 97 03:47:51
EID:7ef9 22841de0
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 3344ce47
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 33401198
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Don Martin said this to Marilyn Burge about
Book
G'day Don,
DM> Don't sweat any typos--my removing my _own_
DM> embarassments in a sense obligates me to clean up
DM> everyone's. I don't quite know what to do with the collected
DM> works of kindly ol' Doc Globberg, though: clean _his_ up,
DM> and you lose the joke of some idiot fundy "correcting" him.
DM> But his sense is worth more than cheap jokes (however much
DM> temptation looms).
I often wish to do the same, however, as long as the general gist of the
statement is recognisable I don't. It gives me the shits at times not
editing my own mistakes where the error wasn't noticed at time of posting,
but to abide by the only rule of this network and not correct spelling
and/or punctuation is more important than correcting a simple mistake that
is often so obvious. At least that's my opinion.
Catchya,
#holysmoke: Fleagle | Whaddya mean I ain't kind? | A4000/030 14megs
irc.another.net | Just not your kind! - Megadeth | Feces occurrus
moneill@erebor.apana.org.au
... "Apostasy", said ROBERT, as the others burned him at the stake.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Another SD lost
|Date: 04 Apr 97 03:58:23
EID:baa5 22841f40
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 3344d0bf
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 33401196
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, Don Martin said this to Ken Young about Another
SD lost
G'day Don,
KY>> Okay.. The postal service is also part of the govt.,
KY>> but does that mean no religious materials should be
KY>> allowed to go through the mail?
You fuckwit. As long as no dangerous goods or pornograpic material are
involved you can post anything, anywhere, as long as you have the correct
postage. As a Mail Officer for Australia Post I dare you to question me.
DM> Do you mean without paying the fucking postage? No. Put
DM> stamps on it, and your crap can go through just like the ads
You'd be awed with the amount of religious gobbledegook that goes through
the mail. On a slow day we'll still process 1.5 million letters. This
does not include pamphlets, small articles or parcels. Total of around
12
million articles a day during the xmas break. Not that I expect you to
give a fuck. :-)
KY>> Well, not like it is anything to be ashamed of, so yes,
KY>> I am a virgin.
DM> GOOD! Keep it that way. We do not need further
DM> contributions from the shallow end of the gene pool.
Still fucked in the head though.
Catchya,
#holysmoke: Fleagle | Whaddya mean I ain't kind? | A4000/030 14megs
irc.another.net | Just not your kind! - Megadeth | Feces occurrus
moneill@erebor.apana.org.au
... Antonym, n.: The opposite of the word you're trying to think of.
--- Spot 1.3a #1526
* Origin: "Newborn babies sin non-verbally." Ken Young (3:640/375.1)
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|From: Mark O'Neill
|To: George Harper
|Sub: FREEDOM OF CHOICE
|Date: 04 Apr 97 04:04:08
EID:c2d2 22842080
MSGID: 3:640/375.1 3344d218
REPLY: 1:104/447 2d97c5be
CHRS: LATIN-1 2
While discussing the paradoxes involved in using Christians as lightning
conductors on church steeples, George Harper said this to Karl Schneider
about FREEDOM OF CHOICE
KS>> You are nothing more than a subhuman lying asshole.
GH> Poor Karl...he has a fixation on Assholes...but why pity him...it
GH> IS his choice, after all. Sniffed any good ones lately, Karl???
Pulled your head out of yours yet, dickhead?
Catchya,
#holysmoke: Fleagle | Whaddya mean I ain't kind? | A4000/030 14megs
irc.another.net | Just not your kind! - Megadeth | Feces occurrus
moneill@erebor.apana.org.au
... If thou can believe, all things are possible to him that believe.
--- Spot 1.3a #1