God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Lady Timberwolf
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Re: Givin' Marty just enough rope...
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:45:00
--------
EID:2c42 1b86b5a0
-=>Marty Leipzig chatted to Ron Stringfellow on 12-02-93 11:17 <=-
ML> Hey, Rectum-Faced Guppy. Yeah, you.
I know you ain't talking to me.....but I sure is hell gonna talk to you.
ML> Look, Ronzo, I've already posted (now twice, you
ML> pernicious
ML> moron) the methods and procedures of radiometric dating.
Well if it take a third posting then do it, if they wanna learn
let them.
RS> sigh....back to the smoke and mirrors...what else is required
ML>
ML> More. Much more. Get a fucking book and read it rather than
ML> spending months (reel, reel, reel...Hey! Look at him tailwalk!)
ML> begging your betters to do it for your pathetic little self.
YOUR FIRED!
ML> ... I was born stupid and have been losing ground ever since.
Agreed!
... Yes, you're very smart. Shut up.
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 128/12 23 50 84 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 128/50 23 12 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Christian Soldier
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Faith In God
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:03:38
--------
EID:3181 1b86a860
MSGID: 1:123/67 2d03e56c
----------------------------------------------------
Hi. This is Shelby. I just couldn't help but forward this
little jewel from Christian Soldier in our own local religious
debate area, THUMP_IT.
Here it is from the home of Trent Hall, Fundus_Maximus.
---------------------------
CS> This is just my token December visitation. I will soon go on
CS> another
CS> hiatus ... just to return when you least expect it.
SS> With tons of baseless assertions in tow, no doubt.
It is truly sad that you insist on going through life demanding YOUR VERSI
ON of proof of the one and only really important thing, when, I presume
there
are probably countless things you take for granted (without proof) on a
daily
basis.
CS> The message is so feeble??? Are you kidding? It is profound to
> the
CS> extreme! Ever lasting life!
SS> Evidence?
Evidence? I need evidence to proof to you that the message IS NOT "feebl
e" - as you claimed?
You will not admit that the Christian claim of everlasting life for all
t
hose who believe is not PROFOUND? In fact, you say it is feeble?
I would understand if you claimed that the PROOF was feeble ... but not
t
he message.
CS> Even the most ardent non-believers will concede that the
> Christian
CS> message, as far as providing guidelines for living one's life, is
> most
CS> consistent with proper and successful social interaction.
SS> Fallacy of irrelevant conclusion.
--My note: This is archive material
***********************************************************************
It is not irrelevant, because it is evidence of the validity of the Chris
tian faith. The fact that Christians seem to be more caring, more socially
ac
ceptable, and lead successful lives, could well be a manifestation of God
work
ing in their life.
***********************************************************************
SS> Please provide evidence of one miracle.
Extreme order of our universe.
--- GoldED 2.41
* Origin: MANICS FOR JESUS!! ..oh never mind, I'm really bummed... (1:123/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 123/67 44 301 19 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: All
Sub: Occult Stuff....
Date: 06 Dec 93 03:48:00
--------
EID:7edc 1b861e00
MSGID: 1:247/133 aa83f3d5
Hey fellow Holysmokers.....
For those of you who have Internet access, and have an interest in the occ
ult. try FTP'ing over to 132.158.82.36 and have a look at what they have
to of
fer. They have approximately 22 megs worth of texts on the occult, principally
on the Temple of Set, Kabalah, Thelema, Orgone, and a few other interesting
g
roups. Of real interest is the complete version of the Equinox by Aleister
Cro
wley, along with supplementary readings associated with this great work,
vario
us text files prepared by Dr. Michael Aquino and other initiates on the
Temple
of Set, a complete occult reading list (Temple of Set), informational/practic
e files on Thelema meditation, Tantra, OTO, Orgone, and other rituals and
rite
s. Certainly one of the best collections that I have seen. Check it out....
fvanderz@spartan.ac.brocku.ca
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 05 Dec 93 20:02:50
--------
EID:8b2c 1b85a040
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d024480
REPLY: 1:153/826 529cc63a
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Ariadne:
In a msg of , Ariadne writes to Derek Clayton:
A> Nope, that's not what Wicca is. That's what "I-am-ian" is. It's how
*I*
A> personally practice Wicca. Although my beliefs do fall within the rather
A> wide borders of Wiccan belief structure. Some people feel they know
A> exactly what God/dess is. Some feel that God/dess is only a metaphor.
I
A> believe that God/dess is a *something*
So it's a tailor-to-your-needs religion.
A> . I think that part of it, though, might be that Wiccans don't
A> proseltyze, don't claim that Wicca is right for all, and don't feel the
A> need to shove Wiccan down your throat.
I don't think that most christians are out to convert others. In fact,
I don'
t think I've seen one message where a christian has said "Let me send you
a pa
mphlet, join me in Christ" etc. Usually all that a christian need do to
recei
ve a barrage of messages is "I believe in god the father, maker of heaven
and
earth".
A> be a 2000 (or a million) year old religion. Wicca is a religion BASED
ON
A> older forms of religion, and it works quite well. But what we practise
to
A> day is a mishmash of lots of older religions and philosophies. We don't
A> care if you or your kids practice it. In fact, to be quite honest, most
A> Wiccan Priestesses I know try to DISSUADE people from joining Wicca,
rathe
r
A> than attracting. That's because Wicca certainly isn't for everyone.
Consider this:
Wicca is exclusively either a truth or a lie (i.e. the forces of the world
can
't be both as wiccans say and what not-wiccans say). However, you think
that
wicca is not for everyone. So you think that the truth is not for everyone.
Either that, or you feel that wicca is not the only truth but instead accomoda
tes other truths. For example, ACTUAL healing (not merely the belief) can
be
achieved by majik, or Jesus, or whatever you personally like.
A> Nothing at all. I have no problems with any Christian, Jew, or Muslim
(or
A> any other religion) sharing their personal experiences with Deity as
they
A> see him/her/it. What I object to is their trying to force that concept
of
A> Deity down my throat. If it were just a sharing rather than a conversion
And I guess you won't oppose those who would challenge your beliefs as you
"sh
are" them. After all, that is what this echo is for.
A> Not true. Just yesterday, I got accosted for saying something that I
had
A> personally experienced. Of course, it hadn't occured to the person that
i
t
A> wasn't something that was meant to be shared... My personal experiences
Then why did you post it public?
A> Sure... but for some people it works . I work magick, and I've
foun
d
A> it works... By trial and error, I've found various things that work for
me
.
So the performing of magick is something that could be tested then?
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Starwyn
Sub: testing 1,2,3
Date: 05 Dec 93 20:35:28
--------
EID:d318 1b85a460
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d0246a7
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Starwyn:
In a msg of , Starwyn writes to Shelby Sherman:
S> TEST THOSE CHRISTIANS:
S> A Non-believer's Guide For Testing The True Christian.
Re: Mocking the wide scope of christianity as it is known today
Are you a wiccan?
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 18:42:24
--------
EID:16a3 1b869540
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d037eab
REPLY: 1:2617/117 aa0316f0
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Dan:
In a msg of , Dan Sereduick writes to Derek Clayton:
DS> It's like those conversations where one person keeps asking, "Why?".
AAARRRRGGGGHHH!! Sorry. Flashback of a conversation I had with my neice.
DS> There's never an end to the questions.
DS> "Why do we exist?" "A god." "Why does it exist?" "It created itself."
DS> "Where did it get this power?" "It always had it." "How did it come
to
DS> be?" "It just did."
There may be an infinite regression of questions, but there is also an infinit
e regression of answers...one for every question. We may not know the answers
, but they must exist otherwise the question would be invalid. For example,
w
hy does X do Y? If no answer exists then X does not do Y. We may not know
th
e answers for every valid question, but they must necessarily exist. It
is up
to us to become curious for the answers.
DS> It just gets to the point where you have to say, "It's unexplainable."
Only within current human limitations.
DS> That's why I believe what I believe. :)
Thanks.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: True colors
Date: 06 Dec 93 19:01:04
--------
EID:1742 1b869820
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d038333
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbe1
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Comrade:
In a msg of , Comrade Fredric writes to Derek
Clayt
on:
CF> And do you entertain situational ethics? Or are ethics a set of rules
CF> carved into stone and not to be broken? I merely ask because morality
CF> subject to change seems the higher morality and it usually carries with
i
t
CF> ethics which also change as situations demand.
I don't profess to have adequate and final knowledge which would allow me
to c
arve my personal ethics and morals into stone. I am always coming upon
new in
formation which requires that I rethink my personal ethics and morals. What
se
ems obviously moral to me now may seem immoral to me when I'm sixty.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 19:09:14
--------
EID:3acf 1b869920
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d038548
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbe2
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Comrade:
In a msg of , Comrade Fredric writes to Derek
Clayt
on:
CF> Ariadne has experienced something her perceptions and preconceptions
CF> designated as "goddess" and "physical manifestations." And I'll not
even
CF> bother to ask what "stuff like that" cover.
I'm beginning to think that most people ignore wiccan claims because they
can'
t be bothered. They see christianity as a cancer on humanity while wicca
is j
ust a wart.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 15:58:08
--------
EID:6809 1b867f40
MSGID: 1:2617/117 aa954d87
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> A request for evidence of an outrageous claim for which no evidence has
> ever been provided before (despite the claim being quite old) is hardly
> "making judgements before knowing the circumstances." This copout
> sounds very much like the typical fundy "respect me even though we both
> know I'm full of crap and don't deserve it."
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
That's your opinion. You're taking your personal opinion as undisprovable
and
demanding her to give proof which she has no need to give. You ruled out
her
beliefs as "bullshit" until she could properly prove her point, and otherwise
, is just full of shit.
I ask you, prove your beliefs.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 16:04:09
--------
EID:43c2 1b868080
MSGID: 1:2617/117 aa954d88
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> A dangerous statement. What about beliefs that promote hatred either
> directly or indirectly? Should these remain unchallenged?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Yes, they should, until they infringe on others' rights.
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> Once people resign themselves to mere acceptance of belief and
> consequences then rationality is no longer needed...nor probably
> desired.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I didn't mean to believe what they believe, or to even take it seriously....
Just to respect that these people have their beliefs. And are responsible
for
their actions as a result...
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 16:07:10
--------
EID:28ba 1b8680e0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 aa954d89
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> Nonsense. He's calling her on her occult claims; nothing more.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, he's looking at her occult claims, laughing out loud and pointing his
fing
er. This attitude is what separates our country.
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> It seems that fundies always spout "attack" when someone disagrees with
> them.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Maybe they do...glad I'm not one of them. As of right now, I'm an atheist
wit
h Wiccan / Buddhist tendencies (still soul-searching).
Fundy? Ha... I fully give him the right to call the Bible a load of bullshit
... Just NOT to someone who believes in it.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: thankfulness
Date: 06 Dec 93 19:56:58
--------
EID:40a7 1b869f00
On (05 Dec 93) Steve Quarrella wrote to Jesse C. Jones...
JCJ> I think you have no concept of what true joy or thankfulness are.
I missed that in the original.
Are you really just like the racist bigot who claimed superior
intelligence for his "race" and then decried the obvious counterexamples
that non-prejudiced people pointed out as "not _true_ intelligence?"
Or else, "OK, but they must be a mixed breed [to explain it away]."
That's really sick, isn't it? But how does it differ from your bigotry?
... A difference that makes no difference....is no difference.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Fundamentalists of all st
Date: 05 Dec 93 12:50:04
--------
EID:10ce aa0ba5d4
MSGID: 1:206/2720 a98c595e
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 fea85d00
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> What you refer to here are observations dismissed
> because they were
> "false observations," non-repeatable.
I fear you have misinterpreted me, though probably because I was insufficientl
y clear.
> For example, an experiment that produces a result that
> doesn't agree
> with a theory's predictions _once_ may be discarded as
> faulty. An
> experiment that produces a result that doesn't agree
> with a theory's
> predictions _repeatedly_ under controlled conditions
> disproves the
> theory; it must be discarded or revised. The multiple
> tests with
> agreeing results comprise a confident observation.
But not a certain observation. Other theories are needed to show that the
tes
ts have in fact been adequately controlled. If those other theories aren't
tru
e, in what way has the theory under test been shown to be false? If they
are
true, how do we know that? Clearly because science is in fact perfectly
capab
le of showing things to be true. That it cannot show things to be true
beyond
the possibility of revision is another matter; it also cannot show things
to
be false beyond the possibility of revision. Obviously, if enough of the
theo
ries on which the test depended were shown to be false, after much time
and fu
rther research, then the tested theory might well be accepted as true again.
If this doesn't happen very often, that is because the number of possible
fals
e theories is so much greater than the number of true theories, so any random
theory that we hit upon is probably false. Thus, by the time we find out
that
the original tests to prove it false were inadequate, we likely would have
fo
und other tests which we still accept which proved it false. This, however,
i
s a pragmatic question; there is no logical gulf between proof and disproof.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/2708 2711 2718 2720 209/208 209 710
SEEN-BY: 209/720 770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11
SEEN-BY: 396/1 640/75
PATH: 206/2720 2708 209/710 209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Fire
To: Kitty-Kat
Sub: Re: Scope of echo
Date: 05 Dec 93 08:15:00
--------
EID:746e 1b8541e0
-=> Quoting Kitty-kat to All <=-
Ki> I've lurked this echo off and on. I'm looking for information on
Ki> Celtic mythology. I'm also looking for people who'd like to
Ki> discuss Catholicism with an open mind and in a charitable spirit?
Ki> Any takers?
Well, I have two friends that are highly interested in Norse
Mythology, if you would like I could talk them and get some information
from them and post back to you.
Dave
* LAKOTA v1.1
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
* Origin: BAYOU BBS ## West Monroe, LA ## 318-397-1822 16.8 DS (1:19/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 19/16 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 17:30:40
--------
EID:317c 1b868bc0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 03dcbf00
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a03d9e
>>>HP>Then you mean that it's personal opinion, right?
>>A>In some ways, yes.
>HP >Copout. It's only personal opinion or you've got evidence.
>HP >Which?
A>Prove to me that the sun goes around the earth; give me evidence.
Simple. Call someone in Europe at sundown.
A>Give me evidence that the moon isn't made of green cheese!
There's plenty of film footage and actual moon rocks available for your
inspection, dear.
A>It's personal opinion
Sure, if the person is a total moron and refuses to review the readily
available empirical evidence. Would that shoe be your size?
A>I believe that the earth goes around the sun
I don't find it hard to believe that a fundy like yourself would believe
such a thing. Yes, it's become apparent that you're as much a fundy as
Ron Stringfellow, Ariadne. No evidence and scared to death to admit it,
too dumb to stop asserting the bullshit as fact.
A>I believe in Goddess. My point here is that it doesn't make it
A>any less "real."
Bullshit believed is bullshit still, my dear.
>HP >You mistake bluntness for anger.
A>I don't think so.
ROFL! Swim, little fishie; "you're so angry" is a typical fundy ploy.
A>No, I've demonstrated that they're true for me.
Bullshit believed is bullshit still, my dear. Where's your evidence?
>HP >Then produce the reasons for your faith.
A>What do you think the last few messages have been?
More fundy bullshit, of course.
A>shove your belief system down everyone else's throat
No, thanks. I have no "belief system" to shove. I do like shooting
fish in a barrel, though. Character flaw.
>HP >If, as the evidence would seem to indicate, you are mentally
>HP >ill, it would seem that you are very incorrect.
A>Hehe... attacks are always the easiest, eh?
An observation based on the available facts. You've admitted to seeing
godlets "materialize" in the flesh. Do you have any evidence that this
is not mental illness? There's plenty of evidence that mental illness
exists, none that godlets exist. "As the evidence would seem to
indicate, you are mentally ill".
I'm sure you accuse your doctor of attacking you when he diagnoses your
health problems, too. :-)
A>I live more of a "normal" life than most others I know.
When you aren't hallucinating, perhaps.
A>I'm balanced
You forgot the "un" prefix there.
>HP >Personal testimony is indistinguishable from lie,
>HP >hallucination or madness, often even (or especially) to
>HP >the testifier.
A>And who's to say that hallucination isn't reality of a sort?
Got any evidence, fundy? If not, you know what they say:
Bullshit believed is bullshit still.
A>It does depend on one's definition of reality
Sorry, dear, reality doesn't seem to give a shit how you define it. It
just is.
A>many others have seen and experienced similar.
Bullshit shared is bullshit still, fundy. Where's your evidence?
A>Reality can be changed and shaped.
And your utterly hysterical example is "bad memory." You and Ron should
get together; maybe you can spell-check his flood story for him.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Place apolitical/antireligious bullshit here... (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 06 Dec 93 17:38:00
--------
EID:c62e 1b868cc0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 03de7800
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a03e12
>HP >Horsefeathers. You've asked a scientific question. If
A>Asking about one's "soul" or "consciousness" is a scientific
A>question?
Asking for an explanation of what causes the phenomenon you misperceive
as "soul" is.
>HP >Then you'll happily provide us with an evidenced theory with
>HP >falsifiable predictions that explains it, right?
A>Interesting way of phrasing that. Care to write it in correctin
A>English and less complicated words? You've just managed to take up
A>an awful lot of bandwidth saying nothing .
Sorry it's above your comprehension threshhold. I'll try with smaller
words, just for you, but be aware that it'll require more words to
impart the same meaning; hope it doesn't exceed your daily requirement:
Then you'll be happy (warm, fuzzy feeling) to share with us (give to us,
provide, show to us) your statement or set of statements (a bunch of
related statements) designed to explain the phenomenon (thing)? This
statement or set of statements (theory, dear) should have some evidence
(observed facts) to back it up. This theory should make predictions (say
"if you do this, that will happen") and these predictions should be
falsifiable ("I did this, but that didn't happen").
Is that simple enough, or will you require Barney to sing it to you?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: "Go to hell." "Been there." (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Aids Kills
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:37:52
--------
EID:3a95 1b86a4a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0408a000
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e5c
SB>So you believe that if people only had sex within marriage, that AIDS
SB>would still be as easy to get?
Why are you asking this question, Steve? You've already agreed that
it's ludicrous to expect people to have sex only within marriage, and
you're further ignoring the fact that monogamous relationships exist
without the benefit of marriage.
Aren't you arguing a strawman?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Debunk xtianity? Just say Noah. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Hostility
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:39:14
--------
EID:e088 1b86a4e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0408f200
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e5d
SB>I did not say believeing in something is always good. I said it
SB>makes it believable.
Believable to whom?
My four-year-old girl believes Santa Claus is real. Is Santa Claus
believable, Steve?
You sure you want to continue this one? :-)
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: BZZZT. But thank you very much for playing. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Basis Of Belief
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:42:30
--------
EID:b6be 1b86a540
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0409b600
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e60
SB>I have explained what happened already. I prayed that God would
SB>show me the true religon. A couple of months later, I was hired by some
SB>born again Christians and it was they that first explained the Gospel
to
SB>me. Thats what happened.
Is there supposed to be something meaningful here? If you prayed for
sex and a prostitute walked up, would it constitute an answered prayer?
If you prayed for money and found a penny on the sidewalk, how about
that?
Do you expect us to believe that your experience was anything other than
a gullible person fulfilling his own wishes?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Practice safe religion: say NO. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Mormons
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:43:44
--------
EID:56cd 1b86a560
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040a0000
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa119d73
SB>Since I am more aware of my experience than I am of
SB>his, I have to take mine over his.
ROFL! Do you know a little story about five blind men who happen upon
an elephant, Steve?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: 'Tis better to rule in hell than serve in heaven. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Incest
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:47:16
--------
EID:8733 1b86a5e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040ad400
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa119d78
>KB>SB>DC>And, why you are at it, please explain the biblical references
>KB>SB>DC>to incest as a means of progenation?
>KB>SB>Where does it allow it?
>KB> See Gen 19:30-38
SB>That passage is not saying that incest is acceptable. It simply is
SB>describing something that happened.
Let's see: yer god had just firebombed a city for housing homosexuals
and entombed Lot's wife alive for looking at it. Then he does nothing
at all when incest is practiced under his nose.
Sure sounds like yer god doesn't mind incest at all. When you consider
the only place the sons and daughters of yer mythological Adam could
have found sex partners, it's pretty obvious that yer god ascribes to
"incest is best."
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: No one gets outta here alive. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: True colors
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:58:06
--------
EID:f403 1b86a740
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040d5e00
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a8943e4f
FR>That's one thing the soviets have done
FR>which the United States president hasn't done yet: disband
FR>congress. Or has it been tried here?
Dunno, but I'll sign the petition.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Yer mother sews socks that smell. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Parson Larson's Cult
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:00:01
--------
EID:da42 1b86a800
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040dd100
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a8943e52
FR>Why do I have this suspicion that I don't want to hear it? What
FR>were you _doing_ this with turkey last weekend?
Hey, hey. Get your own turkey.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Jess had a halo of flies. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Watching and waiting for just the right moment!
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:07:49
--------
EID:9ec5 1b86a8e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040fa500
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a90addb4
FR>I have sent a dozen articles on False Memory
FR>Syndrome to the moderator and she's ignored them all (of course.)
Notice our newest fundy Ariadne claims bad memory proves reality changes?
:-)
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Xtianity: crucifixion fiction. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Abortion & Christianity
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:40:38
--------
EID:8519 1b86ad00
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 04175600
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9877f0a
JC> The life-and-death decisions which modern medical science
JC>impose on us require courageous and insightful moral-decision-making
But, Jesse: you've already informed us that you can't possibly make
moral decisions on your own.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Hell is where the fundies are. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Scripture
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:43:34
--------
EID:60d5 1b86ad60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 04180600
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9877f0c
> SV> Why don't you put your scriptures aside and think for
> SV> _yourself_ once in a while?
JC> This cliched response masks the undeniable fact that
JC>evangelical atheists have _no_ traditions to cite or to inform them
JC>on their walk on this planet.
Bullshit, Jesse. It states the fact that we can think for ourselves.
We're free to choose from any and all traditions, or to go our own way
if none apply.
You, on the other hand, are not allowed to think for yourself. If it's
not in your tradition, or if your tradition is wrong, you're just squat
out of luck.
Isn't that right, Jesse?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Nothing stops a fundy. Not even common sense. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: The Amazing Circle-Jerking Jesse
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:45:45
--------
EID:4698 1b86ada0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 04188900
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9948058
> RC> Do you mean to say that there is a call for me from your god Yahweh
tha
t
> RC> I am not responsive to, or do you mean to say that Yahweh is not callin
g
> RC> me?
JC> The answer, IMO, is 'yes' to both.
Whacka whacka whacka. Stop it or you'll go blind.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Nobody loves a fundy. Least of all his godlet. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: souls and superstition
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:53:36
--------
EID:2710 1b86aea0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041a5f00
REPLY: 1:153/826 529fbd0c
>RC >any highly organized nervous systems, but we do. The one word answer:
>RC >brains.
A>So an ape is just as intelligent as we? Or a hippopotumus? Then
A>why don't they read and write? Communicate in more complex forms?
Ari,
The difference between us and them is huge amounts of long-term memory.
You may have heard the old cliche' "90% of the brain is unused." That's
the long-term memory that makes it possible for us to reason better than
the other animals. Note also that the other animals _can_ reason, it's
just that we do it better because we have a larger database.
Read Asimov's _The Human Brain_ for more details in layman's terms. Even
a fundy like yourself might be able to pick up some information from it.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Only irrelevant or nonexistent gods leave no traces. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: FREEMASON echo
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:59:45
--------
EID:9838 1b86af60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041bd100
SQ>The question to Steve Winter should be: Why would your God create
SQ>someone as sorry as you are?
He's the one who got created in its image.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: If the fundies shut up, god would be speechless. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Re: Marty Leipzig's generous but doomed attempt to inform
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:09:53
--------
EID:216a 1b86b120
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041e3100
RS> Thank him for what ? What time and effort does it take to
RS>answer a question?
Oh, then answer this one:
What's the 10 millionth digit of pi, to the right of the decimal point?
Nope, the answer's not "0, like all the rest," you idiot...
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Niels was Bohring. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Life's meaning
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:12:15
--------
EID:14a4 1b86b180
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041ebe00
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9948059
> JC> | I meant to say that you and Curry admit that life without God
> JC> | is meaningless.
> JCJ> Does your life have ultimate meaning?
> RC> I do not ascribe any sort of "ultimate meaning" to my life, no.
JC> If you want to change your answer now and tell me _what_
JC>meaning your life has, feel free to do so.
Strawman, Jesse. He didn't say his life was meaningless, as _you_ say.
He said he did not ascribe any sort of _ultimate_ meaning to his life.
Here's a hint, if you're brave enough to take it. Before asking "what
is the ultimate meaning of life," try satisfactorily answering "is there
an ultimate meaning to life?"
When you think you've got the answer, check your evidence.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Nyuk nyuk. Uncoitanly! (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:13:26
--------
EID:5872 1b86b1a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041f0600
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a04206
A>I hate fundies of all stripes
Wear polka dots.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: He hears the silence howling (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Ariadne
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Waste of Time
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:39:00
--------
EID:40e7 1b8634e0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a17138
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a79275df
FR >Anyone see any suggestion that the Pagan or Wiccan
FR >participants in this forum have ever recieved so much as a
FR >"you're a crazy fool" from the never-believers in this
FR >forum? (I've seen some "that's goatdroppings" directed
Uh, just slightly! I'm getting grilled. Why?
Allyson
---
* Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 153/826 266 767 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Ariadne
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:44:00
--------
EID:3161 1b863580
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a1725a
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a81049b5
CF >I wonder if this could be a series of hypnotic
CF >hallucinations before or after slipping into or out of
CF >sleep. A _lot_ of people think they see things.
Could be, except they've happened in broad daylight on a number of occasions¨
. Actually, I'll be honest in that, most of my experienes with¨ "God/de
ss" have happened either during ritual or meditation, when I am also in¨
an al
tered state (no, boys and girls, I don't mean drugs...). Then again,¨ you're
usually *trying* to induce "hallucinations" during ritual. Or at least¨
what
Christians and bigots would call hallucinations, anyhow . But that¨
sti
ll doesn't explain physical manifestation. I wish I *could* explain it!
;)
Allyson
---
* Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 153/826 266 767 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Ariadne
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:49:00
--------
EID:8ad8 1b863620
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a17378
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2cfd3857
DC >-A wiccan who claimed to have seen the spirit of a woman.
Dat's me.. . What of it?
DC >-A description of the practice of killing a chicken to
DC >release it's "life energies" in certain wiccan rituals.
No, I said that Satanists had been known (by me, at least) to use a chicken
in
¨ ritual, in paradoy or copying the Santaria ritual. I said that Wiccans
in t
he¨ past had been known to engage in sacrifice... I have no idea if it include
d a
chicken or not... ;)
DC >-At least two wiccans who believe that "something" exists
DC >out there (sentient or not) but they can't describe it, and
DC >it is beyond human comprehension.
Finish reading the messages. If you'd like an explanation of the form of
what
¨ I believe, then continue to read. If you just want to bitch, continue¨
blit
hely along.
DC >Being nice is no excuse for irrational belief. And, if I'm
DC >not mistaken, I've seen some wiccans belittling fundies for
DC >their absurd beliefs?!?
Yes, but at least we Wiccans don't go around trying to shove it down everyone
else's throats, like the Christians and athiests...
Allyson
---
* Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 153/826 266 767 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Ariadne
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 06 Dec 93 07:00:00
--------
EID:d059 1b863800
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a1761c
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 38208ab6
MG >I do not consider marriage a religious thing. I have no
Actually, I don't either . I consider marriage a state thing, and
then
¨ religions have their own ceremonies. It's nice when you can combine them,
s
o
as to avoid having to do things over and over again, but sometimes they
stay¨
separate. My hubby and I are Handfasted (the Wiccan "marriage" rite), but¨
we
're going to be getting legally married (tax breaks, parental-unit-cheering
-upness, etc.).
MG >understood that she did nto want any other sex partners
MG >between us. Now while I don't think that there is anything
Then that's a vow you made in full knowledge of it. It wasn't something
you¨
did either in ignorance, or in bowing to religious "rules" that you didn't¨
wi
sh to follow. That's *different*. What you choose to do is between you
and¨
your partner. Kudos for you, if that's the way you feel!
MG >basically wrong with a "family" where there are more than
MG >two sex players, my wife does. So we keep our vows....the
Uh huh... I've met several families with more than one mum or dad. They
all¨
seem to be quite normal. More normal, in fact, than most two-parent families
I've known. Perhaps it hs to do with there always being a mum or dad around¨
to help out, spend time with the kids, *listen*, share...
MG >vows we made to each other. these are a lot more importatn
MG >than any vows made to a non existant deity.
To you. I have to admit, the vows I made to David, my hubby, during our¨
Hand
fasting, are very important to me. I made my vows to him, not to the¨ Goddess
or the God. But I did ask that those vows be blessed by our version¨ of
Deit
y... For us, that worked. For others, maybe not.
MG >sure that the group is safe, more power to you. I have
MG >nothing against that. It's almost monogmaous in my book.
MG >The same results are achieved, at any rate.
True. Of the more-than-two-parent families I know, none of them feel the
need
¨ or want to "screw around" outside the family unit. On the other hand,
most
of¨ (though not all) of the two-person families I know have rather pronounced¨
"need" to screw outside the relationship. Not enough variety, perhaps.
David and I work it this way: in theory, neither of us will hold the other¨
b
ack should s/he wish to screw another person. I would also add that, in
the
three years we've been together, we've only tested that once, and nothing¨
hap
pened . We love each other very much...
Allyson
---
* Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 153/826 266 767 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Ariadne
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 06 Dec 93 07:07:00
--------
EID:c753 1b8638e0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a177a2
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 382098c9
MG >It seems to me a bit oxymoronic that you don't agree with
MG >it, but you understand it. You don't eat meat? Why? Is it
Why's that? I understand lots of things which I don't agree with. Toe¨
fetis
hists, soem Christians, dentistry... . Doesn't seem that much of¨
an ox
ymoron to me.
MG >because you do not want to take a life to eat? You want to
MG >know the difference int he sacrifice and the butchering of
MG >an animal for food? None, I suppose. So if there is no
I don't eat meat for several reasons. First, because I find it makes me
ill¨
most of the time. Second, I dislike eating rotting substances, and meats
in¨
Canada and the US are "aged" (read: left to rot) for about 28 days before¨
the
y're *allowed* to be sold for eating. Third, because I do try not to take
other sentient life to replenish my own. They're personal reasons, and
I¨ cer
tainly don't feel the need to shove my vegetarianism on an yone else. In¨
fac
t, it really wouldn't work on an unwilling victim . You *really*¨
have
to want to not eat meat before you can do it. We're force fed it for so
many years that it's hard to get yourself detoxed! All the drugs they feed¨
c
ows and chickens go into our systems, you know!
MG >know the difference int he sacrifice and the butchering of
MG >an animal for food? None, I suppose. So if there is no
MG >difference inthese two acts, how can you "not agree, but
MG >understand it"?
Because I don't eat meat, I don't agree with the mass slaughter of innocent¨
b
ovines. But considering the immensity of the meat industry, and the¨ addictio
n to meat which North Americans suffer, I cannot help but understand¨ those
wh
o support the industry. I just wish people would know the truth about¨
how th
at steak gets to the freezer before they are allowed to eat it. Sigh...
MG >Prayer to me, is prayer, whether xtian or not. I'm an equal
MG >opportunity religion basher.
Hehe... Prayer is a form of meditation. Science has proved the benefits
of¨ m
editation several times over. It's good for the body, it's good for the¨
memo
ry, it improves long and short term recall...
MG >Liek the xtian god, I would have to see some evidence of the
MG >supernatural before I could believe in it.
No problem. I don't ask you to believe it. I used to not believe it¨ .
.. but circumstances have changed that.
Allyson
---
* Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 153/826 266 767 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: James Conwell
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: That Heat
Date: 7 Dec 93 04:30:57
--------
EID:7f9a 1b8723c0
MSGID: 1:106/7512 81eca64a
REPLY: 1:123/67 2cf8efa0
SS> The vapor canopy had weight and this weight crushed down upon the
SS> atmosphere making its volume small. As the canopy condensed and fell
SS> as
SS> rain it became lighter allowing the atmosphere to expand outward to
a
SS> multiple of 2-3 (my estimate) times its original size. The earth
SS> itself
SS> probably expanded to some degree and may have been a part of the
SS> reason
SS> for heavy tectonic and volcanic activity. This expansion was not a
SS> normal low pressure area like those today but a worldwide lowering of
SS> pressure permanently.
Any idea how much greater the atmospheric pressure was at sea level according
to this theory?
Also, have you read anything to indicate how much visible sunlight was blocked
by this giant water canopy? Was the world quite dark or what?
I have always been a fan of the water canopy theory since it so neatly explain
s how early humans could live to be hundreds of years old.
Thank you very much.
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/7512 993 9788 888 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: James Conwell
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: POLITE
Date: 7 Dec 93 04:45:30
--------
EID:121f 1b8725a0
MSGID: 1:106/7512 0c8230d0
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a3945b4e
FR> Nope. Everyone is born an atheist. It requires years of
FR> indoctrination to turn an otherwise healthy child into a believer in
FR> unseen superfriends.
Really? "Everyone is born an atheist"? Hmmmmmmmm..........
You claim it takes years of indoctination to change people from atheists
into
theists? Hmmmmmmm.......
Then how on earth did theism ever get started then?
If all the original humans were born atheists and noone was around to indoctri
nate them into being theists then how could they become theists?
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/7512 993 9788 888 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:26:00
--------
EID:5e03 1b86ab40
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d03ea0f
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 0124f500
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
Hello Hector!
HP> + Origin: Religion: leave home without it. (1:380/16)
Religion: Let *it* leave home, instead.
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
128/1
SEEN-BY: 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 109/601 104 343 25 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Russian Orthodoxy
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:45:00
--------
EID:1087 0475ba90
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab0671f2
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Jesse C. Jones <=-
SB> I completely agree. I went on a short term mission during the summer
SB> and it was very difficult to leave my cultural baggage behind. It
is
SB> very easy for this sort of thing to get in the way of the preaching
of
SB> the Gospel. I hope in the future that missionaries will become more
SB> sensitive the culture in which they are working that they will be able
SB> to work with the Orthodox and other Russian churches in preaching the
SB> Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe that the missionaries will be able
SB> to learn many things from them. I know Billy Graham has benefited
SB> from communication with ROC leaders.
I admire Billy Graham greatly. He has grown so in his ministry, and has
always avoided personal gain or glory. He has labored hard and faithfully
in
Russia, and I think he has shown great sensitivity to their culture.
I was pleasantly surprised to learn recently that Graham was a strong
supporter of Dr. Martin Luther King's, and counseled him on how to organize
mass rallies and national tours.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 135/71 292 359 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710
720
SEEN-BY: 209/770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Josh McDowell's Tests #1 of 2
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:28:26
--------
EID:7b77 1b879380
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05119a
Nov-20-93 07:36PM
NT Reliability and Josh McDowell's Tests for Historical Documents
From: agnostic@stein2.u.washington.edu (Jeff Lowder)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of the Christians I have known have been fundamentalist
Christians. They believe in a literal Resurrection of Jesus Christ and
consider New Testament Reliability central to that belief. Therefore,
I would like to examine the question of New Testament reliability. In
particular, I would like to look at Josh McDowell's three tests for
Historical Documents, apply these tests to a statement we know is
false, and then apply these tests to the Resurrection.
JOSH'S THREE TESTS
Josh McDowell has put forth three tests for historical documents.
First, the Bibliographical Test: Do the texts we have today match the
original? Second, the Internal Evidence Test: Are there any known
contradictions or inaccuracies? And finally, The External Evidence
Test: Do other historical documents confirm or deny the alleged events?
AN EXAMPLE: APPLYING THESE TESTS TO "RUSH LIMBAUGH IS GOD"
In order to see how these tests work, I thought it would be interesting
to apply these tests to a statement less controversial than "Jesus is
God".
So I would like to apply these tests to "Rush Limbaugh is God." Here
goes. My friend Jason writes a book which argues that Rush Limbaugh is
God. Prometheus Books publishes 20,000 copies, of which 15,000 manage
to survive into the year 2093. Jeff also writes a book on talk show
hosts and also says that Rush is God. Let's pretend the year is 2093
and apply Josh McDowell's tests to Jason's book.
The Bibliographical Test
Computerized publishing has greatly increased the accuracy of printed
books. All copies of Jason's books consistently say, "Rush Limbaugh is
God." Therefore, Jason's book passes the bibliographical test.
The Internal Evidence Test
Jason took courses in philosophy and wrote a logically coherent book.
His book did not contain any contradictions. Therefore, his book
passes the Internal Evidence Test.
The External Evidence Test
Jeff's book corroborates Jason's because it also says that Rush is God.
Conclusion: RUSH IS GOD!!!
Since Jason's book has passed all three of Josh McDowell's tests, we
may safely conclude that his book is historically reliable and,
therefore, Rush Limbaugh is God.
The real conclusion: McDowell's three tests are not enough.
I agree that a book which fails any of McDowell's three tests cannot be
considered historically reliable. However, as the preceding example
showed, his three tests are not enough. Any story which is logically
consistent will pass all three of his tests.
APPLYING MCDOWELL'S TESTS TO "JESUS CHRIST IS GOD"
1. The Bibliographical Test
a) Mark's conclusion is known as the Spurious Addendum. If
there is one thing all sides can agree on, it is that Mark 16:9-20 was
added to the original manuscript by someone other than the original
author. Remember that Mark 16:9-20 contains the only post-Resurrection
appearances in the Gospel according to Mark. This is important because
Mark's gospel is the oldest of the four gospels, meaning that the
oldest manuscripts contain no stories of a Resurrected Christ.
b) John's Epilogue was added on by another author.
Chapter 21 of John is known to New Testament scholars as the
"Epilogue" of John, added later on by someone eager to prove that Jesus
was widely seen after the Resurrection.
2. The Internal Evidence Test
a) None of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses.
Luke and Mark do not ever claim the authority of being apostles.
Matthew could not have been an eyewitness because he relies too much on
Mark and contains "none of the independent witnessing or memoirs which
a close disciple could have contributed".
b) Luke's Gospel incorrectly describes Quirinius and
KingHerod as contemporaries.
Luke's Gospel incorrectly assumes they were contemporaries. However,
as historian Robin Lane Fox points out, "It is not just that Herod the
Great never coincided with Quirinius the governor: he never coincided
with a Roman taxing of Judea."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Josh McDowell's Tests #1 of 2
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:29:14
--------
EID:7b77 1b8793a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0511ca
Nov-20-93 07:36PM
NT Reliability and Josh McDowell's Tests for Historical Documents
From: agnostic@stein2.u.washington.edu (Jeff Lowder)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
c) Augustus never issued a decree to census and tax the
whole world.
Fox again: "It is even doubtful if the Emperor Augustus ever issued a
decree to Rome's provinces that `all the world should be taxed.'"
Augustus certainly never ordered the entire world to return to their
home cities for a census.
d) Luke's and Matthew's genealogies of Jesus do not match.
3. The External Evidence Test
a) The Gnostic Gospels argue that Jesus never existed in
theflesh.
b) All Jewish documents are perfectly consistent in saying
that Jesus was stoned to death and hanged on a tree.
c) The Massacre of the Innocents is not a historical
event.
This "historical event" in Matthew is not mentioned by any of the other
gospel writers, nor by Jospehus, who was a sworn enemy of Herod and
recorded every evil act he ever committed.
4. Conclusion: Available evidence does not prove the Resurrection
of Christ.
What do you say the next time a fundamentalist Christian tells
you that Josh McDowell has written a book proving Jesus was
resurrected? You tell them that Josh's tests are not sufficient to
prove the reliability of historical documents. And you tell them that
the New Testament fails even the three tests which McDowell gave.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Lowder
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Ariadne
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:29:36
--------
EID:1838 1b8793a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0511e0
with: Martin Goldberg
>MG> Marriage means monogamy. Wouldn't that do just as well?
A> In YOUR religion, maybe! Heck, I wouldn't tie myself down
A> to one person ever... That's not the type of promise I'd
A> make. Marriage can be a wonderful thing for three or even
A> more. Allyson
For what little it's worth, I agree 100%! It used to be called
"Complex Marriage" by the Oneida community. If large marriages
were the norm, I highly suspect that domestic violence would
vanish utterly, and violence in general would be greatly reduced.
Even repulsively ugly men like me could probably be married, as
the women would not feel required to sleep with us. I've thought
about this for a long time, and the more I do the more I like
the idea. The irrational, senseless marriage laws we have should
be utterly abandoned.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Aaron Boyden
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:29:48
--------
EID:5ad6 1b8793a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0511ec
> I think that World War Two was the only war that America was
> justified in fighting.
AB> And we wouldn't have had to fight that one, were it not for
AB> our unjustified involvement in the first world war.
There are some things worth killing for and dying for. George Bush
believes these things are oil, money, and military bases in forein
lands.
It's true that America was strangling Japan economically and
militarily (dictating the allowable size of Japan's military, if I
recall my high-school history class correctly). I really hate to
admit it, but I think that America's involvement in WWII was the
only way to prevent even greater death and destruction later on,
with North America hosting the war, and not Europe. In other words,
a little preventative butchery and genocide.
I wonder why America joined the First World War? (The "war to end
all wars.") America was also in an undeclared war with China (if
I recall my Steve McQueen movies correctly. *grin!*).
As far as I know, Americans on their home turf have only been
attacked five times. The war of Independance, the Spanish/American
war, Pearl Harbor, Elwood California, and aboard the Nemitz when
she was anchored here and Muslim members of the crew thought it was
their duty to turn on their shipmates during Bush's Oil War.
There has been other attacks, that would not have occured if America
had been minding its own business. Instead of defending ourselves,
we have always been on the offensive, killing "them" before they can
kill us. (Gee, we sound a lot like the Soviet Union.) Russian had an
excuse--- it's impossible to defend, so attacking first is the only
alternative. America has no other excuse except monitary gain. We
didn't want many nations to fall into the dreaded hands of the people
who lived in them and called those nations "home."
Still, it's one of the best nations to live in. I see this changing
fast, though. Last poll I saw, Americans wanted the USA out of
Somalia. The Somalians want the USA out of Somalia. But we want
their deep-water ports for oil tankers.
America loaned Somalia the money to build deep-water ports for oil
tankers. To repay the money, Somalia sold tobacco to American
interests which later sold it to Eastern nations. This caused the
price of tobacco to drop, so tobacco farmers in America were given
a government subsidy. Twenty years later Somalia is growing too much
tobacco and not enough food, and then a drout hits. America waits
until the drout IS OVER and starvation is much less than it was, and
sends troops into the nation, which promptly shoot school busses and
old men on bicycle. Aphganistan all over again.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Miscellaneous
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:30:16
--------
EID:fc5f 1b8793c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051208
with: Amy Anderson-Coffin
>>HP> Hyphen-Jones appeared to be counting under his breath. "Well,
>>HP> I'll be buggered," the Major murmured... --David Langford
>AA>Is this the Langford I'm thinking of?
HPO> You must have me confused with Uri Geller. I don't read minds.
But then, neither does Uri Geller.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: "Ringworld"
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:30:26
--------
EID:bce1 1b8793c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051212
with: Fredric Rice
JV> BTW, do you know of anything Niven's written in Known Space
JV> since that book? The way he left the Hindmost, Chmeee and
JV> Louis Wu on the Ringworld like that has given me a coitus
JV> interruptus kind of feeling. I hate cliffhangers, especially
JV> when they've been left hanging for years with no indication
JV> whether they will be taken up again....
JV>
JV> Worse than anticipation. Yaknowhuttimean?
The way I'd write the third book:
Nexus would continue to build ramjets and mount them, to keep the
Ringworld centered. He'd also get the internal machinery going,
such as the Spill Mountains, patching vacuum holes, power stations
on the Shadow Squares, and complete the Rim transportation system.
After all, the health and well-being of Ringworld is required to
keep -HIM- alive.
Chmeee goes back to the Katzn Map where his children are, and he
and his kids move to the conqured Map of Earth.
Louis Wu starts out on foot to traverse from one rim to the other,
spreading knowledge and information wherever he goes, spending a
year or two in each location before moving on to the next.
One day, say 100 years later, Louis Wu is sitting in a garden
teaching his students, when a probe from Nexus drops out of the sky.
The three had not talked to each other for that span of time, but
Nexus, being wont to know where his potential enemys are, kept track
of both Louis and Chmeee. Nexus tells Louis the news: he has spotted
a fleet of Ringworld Ramjets heading their way.
Louis goes with the probe and picks up Chmeee. Together they unite
with Nexus, and meet the arival of the Ramjet fleet.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Keith Rockhold
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:30:46
--------
EID:f6ae 1b8793c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051226
DR> supported invasions of Cuba and Grenada. We used the atom bomb on
DR> two civilian cities, killing 70,000 out-right and thousands later
DR> with disease and burns.
DR>
DR> I think that World War Two was the only war that America was
DR> justified in fighting.
KR> Ok, I have a problem, why bring up the US dropping tha atom bomb
KR> on Japan if you think we were justified in fighting it?
Er, because it was wrong.
KR> Total war means that you do every thing you can in order to win
KR> that war including the killing of civilians.
Conventional bombs could have destroyed the target (ball-bearing
factories). No need to take tens of thousands of people out with it.
The intent was to demoralize the fighters by destroying their
families at home (same as America does today).
KR> In total war there are no civilians and most assuredly in 1945
KR> Japan there WERE NO CIVILIANS.
So a two-year-old child is a combatent?
KR> Everyone was ready to fight and die for the emporer of Japan we
KR> were saving the lives of MILLIONS of american soldiers and
KR> Japanese soldiers and civilians by dropping the bomb and bringing
KR> the war to a speedy coclusion.
No. The war had been won by June. Japan's navy and army was broken.
Japan was petitioning for cease-fire (though not surrender). You've
bought into the lie that killing almost 100,000 (eventually, counting
radiation-related disease) somehow "saved millions." The deaths of
those nuked were old men, women, and children--- very brave of the
USA to butcher them by melting the flesh from their bones at thirty-
thousand feet.
KR> My country has done alot of aweful things over the years but you
KR> WILL NOT list that among them. Keith Rockhold
I did. I do. I will. If you are man enough to make me stop, by all
means have at. 9500 Jeronimo Road, Irvine, California, 92677. I'll
be looking forward to your visit.
"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of
fear -- kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic
fervor -- with the cry of grave national emergency...
Always there has been some terrible evil to gobble us
up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing
the exorbitant sums demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these
disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to
have been quite real."
-- General Douglas MacArthur, 1957
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:31:14
--------
EID:c1c9 1b8793e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051242
MG>> Abstance is fine, but absolute monogamy does just as well.
MB> And it's one helluva lot more fun!
MG> Sure it is. It's safe sex with a partner of your choosing.
MG> You learn the likes and dislikes of the other. You needn't
MG> have to go out every night to expensive bars, either. But
MG> this distracts fromt he fact that the fundies would love
MG> abstinance to be the law of the land. Fact is, I can't see
MG> anything that would make adults refrain from sex. Nor should
MG> there be.
Try being repulsively ugly. Instead of choosing celebacy, it
chooses you.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Biker Bitches
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:31:26
--------
EID:5f25 1b8793e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05124e
Some asshole posted some disgusting pornography related to
copulation and murder, complete with graphic butchery with
a knife. I would like to see this particular someone
corrected as to what is appropreate here. While I am all
for "pornography" in the sexual content and within context,
brutal, violent murder should not be allowed--- as it was,
the graphic depiction of brutality was mixed WITH sexuality,
which is not only mentally and emotionally damaging to the
psyche, but a violation of everything that is decient and
good in sexuality, turing it into shit and vomit.
You are the lawgiver and the enforcer here. I not so humbly
petition you to check into this.
Thank you! Goddess bless.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Thanksgiving Gruntings
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:31:38
--------
EID:3763 1b8793e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05125a
with: Jesse C. Jones
JC> You secularists (thank who for what?) are missing the joy of
JC> thankfulness. of gratefulness, of grace itself. I hope each of
JC> you at least enjoyed your turkey. Thanks be to God[sic]!
SB> Amen brother!
Did you cum, too?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:31:48
--------
EID:c32e 1b8793e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051264
with: Fredric Rice
FR>FR>> Scientific method has killed your deities.
FR>FR> God is dead, Steve. Science has killed it.
SB> Thanks for reposting. The above comments strongly suggest
SB> that you are saying science disproves the existence of God[sic].
SB> Earlier, people demanded that I give an example of someone
SB> saying that science has disproved the existence of God[sic].
SB> Thanks for doing the work for me.
And I hereby apologize to you, Steve, for saying you were lying.
I missed the above messages from Fredric that implies that science
has "disproven" god. [Though he said "killed it," not disproven.]
Science cannot prove gods do not exist--- maybe Fredric meant that
science has demonstrated that there is no need to invoke gods as
explanations for the observable: that's death to any idea. Instead
of me second-guessing what he ment, I suppose I could ask him. :-)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: "god's Love"
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:06
--------
EID:c66e 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051276
DR> And this child was most likely a moslem. He was not babtized
DR> a Christian, and since Jesus Christ said that no one can achieve
DR> the kingdom of heaven except through him, then this child is
DR> now burning for ever in the flames of eternal torture and
DR> damnation.
SB> God only demands judgement for those that were able to make a
SB> decision. If this child was only two, he could not have decided
SB> what his relationship with God[sic] would be. I do not believe
SB> that God[sic] will punish him for that.
You're second-guessing god. It is interesting that you believe you
can have it both ways: when presented with a tough question that
makes god look immoral and evil, you have an easy out by saying in
effect that we humans cannot know the mind of god. Yet if a query
can be answered in a positive light, you suddenly know god's mind.
Let's play "Let's Assume," shall we? If I may, I'll set up the
assumptions and then posit a theory.
Assumption: despite the fact that there is no evidence of a god,
let's assume it exists.
Assumption: despite the fact that there is no evidence of a god
speaking its mind to us, let's assume it has. Let us further
assume that this communication ended up in your favorate version
of the latest revision of the latest translation of the bible.
Assumption: despite the fact that there is no evidence of hell,
let's assume god says it exists and that he will ship us all off
to it if we do not toe the line.
Given these assumptions, I now posit a theory. I theorize that for
every bible verse that states that one need not know and accept
Jesus as a savior, there is another bible verse that does not. I
have a copy of the King James revision right here on my computer
disk, so I may check to see if you are playing fair.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:26
--------
EID:5380 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05128a
with: Fredric Rice
>sb> Yes that is what I was suggesting. Also, the description
>sb> Luke gives suggests that she had not had sex.
FR> Read it again. It says that she didn't know who the father was.
SB> Sorry, but "knew not a man" means she did not have sex.
Goddess, Steve, he was trying to be funny! [And I stress the word
"trying." :-) ]
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:36
--------
EID:53b5 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051294
with: Martin Goldberg
MG> Abstance is fine, but absolute monogamy does just as well.
SB> Agreed. The only difference of opinion on this one that we
SB> might have is the role of marriage. But for the purposes of
SB> this discussion you are right.
If I married twenty women who didn't have the HIV virus, and we
all remained faithful, that would also be just as safe as abstance
or monogamy.
And the more I think about it, the better I like the idea. . . .
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Demon Barney
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:48
--------
EID:a5c2 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512a0
>SQ>DB> From the November 26 Chicago Tribune:
>SQ>DB>
>SQ>DB> Barney a demon?
>SQ>DB>
>SQ>DB> [cuts] Rev. Joseph Chambers says ... "Barney is teaching kids
>SQ>DB> that we must accept everyone as they are--- whether they're
>SQ>DB> homosexuals or lesbians."
Homosexuals -OR- lesbians?!
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:58
--------
EID:1148 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512aa
DR> One of the shells fell on a ranch and failed to explode--- the
DR> rancher dug it up and sent it to the War Department, who sent
DR> it back a few years later.
SQ> -Sent it back-?
Oops! I meant sent it back to the rancher who dug up the
shell, not back to Japan from whence it originated. :-) Or to the
sub that delivered it.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: Suzy Rosenhan
Sub: You need God [like a hole in the head]
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:33:06
--------
EID:85f7 1b879420
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512b2
with: Jesse C. Jones
>JCJ> Good luck with your marriage. It sounds like you'll need it.
>JCJ> BTW, do you share your posts here with your fiance?
SR> [some cuts. Sorry! Needed the space] I have to give Steve a lot
SR> of credit over other men I have known. He has accepted me
SR> despite the fact that I don't have a perfect body. Where other
SR> men would shy away from me because I have several scars from
SR> heart surgery, Steve has been very loving to me and makes me
SR> feel like I'm beautiful. He cares about what I have on the
SR> inside. He has enough depth to know that there is much more
SR> to a woman than a good fuck.
That's true--- there is also cooking and cleaning.
SR> He may not be a Christian but he has a much better attitude
SR> towards me as a woman than most of the Christian men I have
SR> known.
I was often HORRIFIED at the way the Mormon church treats women,
within the church as well as women outside the church. It seemed
like a club for men, where women were provided as servants. I've
never been a Mormon, though as a child I was forced to attend.
>JCJ> Admitting that you do not understand what love is is a step in
>JCJ> the right direction. Try meditating on the question for awhile.
Goddess! Jesse, of all people, handing out advice on love!
SR> I find your comments about "love" to be interesting. I may not
SR> be a true Christian although I haven't quite decided on that
SR> totally at this point, but I do know what true love is. Love is
SR> when you are willing to sacrifice your own needs for the needs
SR> of someone else because it feels good to see them happy. Because
SR> you get so much joy from this, the sacrifice doesn't really feel
SR> like a sacrifice at all. Love is when you keep an open mind and
SR> try to see the other person's point of view instead of ridiculing
SR> them. Love is patience and it definitely takes alot of patience
SR> to be successful in a relationship. Love is when two people can
SR> share everything. Love is when you enjoy each other's company.
SR> Love is also sometimes unexplainable. You don't know why you feel
SR> it but it's there and you can't deny it.
Ah, you -are- beautiful. I greatly envy Steve.
Love is not being able to sleep until the one you love is home safe.
At times it can be a mental illness. ;-)
>JCJ> Religious faith is more about questions than it is about answers
SR> I don't agree with that comment. I find that the religion I was
SR> raised in tended to discourage questions.
Religious faith leaves most questions unanswered. Doubt is seen as a
tool of "the devil." Unanswered questions SHOULD lead to doubt. My
observation is that the Christian faiths make unanswered questions a
positive trait, and not the negative trait that it is.
>>SQ> I am thankful for having a reasonably well-behaved family.
>JCJ> I'm sure they relish your approval.
SR> Steve has a point, Jesse. My Christian family has been
SR> "embarrassingly" horrible to him. I don't think it's him that
SR> they hate but the fact that he doesn't belong to their faith.
SR> They don't care that he makes me happy and treats me well. They
SR> have chosen to be disapprove of him without even getting to know
SR> him. I personally believe that my father would enjoy Steve's
SR> company a great deal but he's afraid to get to know him because
SR> of the difference in religious beliefs. I want to know why my
SR> family has the right to feel justified in treating Steve like
SR> an outsider when they claim to be Christians. Suzy
"If you don't believe in Santa Claus, I'm not gonna play with you!"
Human behavior still surprises me now and then.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Quotes
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:33:48
--------
EID:a89f 1b879420
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512dc
"Freedom of speech means that you shall not do something to people
either for the views they have, or the views they express, or the
words they speak or write." -- Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black (1963)
"If all mankind, minus one, were of one opinion, and only
one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be
no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he
had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
-- John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_ (1859)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Strickland
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: PILTDOWN MAN
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:39:40
--------
EID:3eb9 1b86a4e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05151b
Fredric Rice Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: PILTDOWN MAN
>> de Chardin, though a Jesuit, was hardly a
>> model that Christians try to emulate!
FR> Except that they did at the Poluxie(sp) man tracks in Texas.
ds> Paluxy River. Been there numerous times.
FR> What's the set up? (Pun intended.) I mean, can anyone stop by and
FR> take a look at the creationist hoax? Is the site controlle by
FR> creationists who then pass out creationist nonsense on paper?
FR> prime examples of creationist's attempting to hoax the better educated
FR> yet being successful only among the already-believer.
You can if you know where to look, I personally never cared worth a rats
ass
as to what the "human" tracks look like. But no, they don't have a stand
setup to give out creationist shit. The actual part of the river that has
the dinosaur tracks are is within a State Park, to really see them you have
to be standing on the rather steep bank. The best tracks where "removed"
from
the river and a model of them is on display in the Park Headquarters.
ds> Can remember when the hoax(s) occurred,
ds> every last one has been disproven.
FR> I don't recall when it was done either. I recall seeing photographs
FR> -- black and white -- of people walking along with hand-held boxes
FR> with glass set at the bottom so that they could see the dinosaur
FR> tracks under water and at that time, no creationist had claimed that
FR> there were human tracks mixed in with them and no one had altered the
FR> tracks after the river was diverted and dried. That was some time ago.
ds> Yet nobody seems to know that its been dis proven, the media
ds> goes nuts over the fact the "human tracks" have been discovered
ds> in the Paluxy river bed along side dinosaur tracks, yet when
ds> its been found to be a lie, you never hear anything about that,
ds> thus many people still believe it.
FR> It's always the way. Witness the "Noah flood" and the sound debunking
FR> every claim has recieved to date. And yet some people still must
FR> believe reguardless of the facts.
FR> Lovely thing, wishful thinking. It can be a tool to motivate great
FR> works and it can also keep ones feet stuck in the mud of astounding
FR> ignorance and superstition.
Unfortunately the wishfull thinking can be a good thing, and at other times
can be a curse (most of the time with superstitions).
Straightened out my brother about the Noahs Ark hoax, and he for one didn't
violently deny that the "flood" was really a large Local flood, and after
further discussion agreed that Noah's Ark and the whole flood story was
mostly a folk tale passed down generations (and having been done was
changed) of that one specific flood. Mom, Dad, and Sister still believe
that the flood really happened (Dad even believes the Vapor Canopy shit).
David
... Fundies -- can't shoot 'em....pass the beer nuts. (Fredric Rice)
---
ž TLX v3.20 ž
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: David Strickland
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: PILTDOWN MAN
Date: 07 Dec 93 14:25:37
--------
EID:aaef 1b877320
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05151d
Steve Quarrella Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: PILTDOWN MAN
SQ>
SQ> Hwaet, David!
SQ>
SQ> 4 Dec 93, dixit David Strickland ad Steve Quarrella:
DS> Yep. My brother watched the Ark story on CBS, a believed every
DS> damn word of it [and I do remember him going on about some guy
DS> who found it].
SQ>
SQ> What does he say now that the Ark thing has been exposed as a hoax?
Nothing, he got quite pretty quick after I leveled the fatal blow. I'm
trying to slowly work him away from xtianity, this is one step in the
right direction. 1 small step for man, 1 giant leap for mankind.
David
... To hell with the Prime Directive! FIRE!!!!!
---
ž TLX v3.20 ž
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: All
Sub: Shut Up
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:23:40
--------
EID:8ecd 1b87a2e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d04e666
=============================================================================
* Forwarded by Steve Quarrella (1:124/9005)
* Area : ECHO_REQ (ECHO_REQ)
* From : Rick Kingcade, 1:280/22 (Martis dies December 07 1993 01:28)
* To : John Passaniti
* Subj : Shut Up
=============================================================================
Hello John:
03 Dec 93, John Passaniti writes to all:
JP> Steve Winter started it. Michael Walsh continued. Then, just
for
JP> fun, Aaraon Goldblatt decided to jump in. Now, I'm ending it. Anyone
JP> engaging Steve will be given one warning. Neat huh?
Why is it that we have to continue to put up with his B.S. in an echo that
is
supposed to be reserved for announcements of new echos? If _anybody_ other
th
an SW were proferring this crap, you guys would be booting him outta here.
See
ms that if one throws around the bible, there is no limit to what he is
allowe
d to hit with it, whether his aim is good or not...
Rick
-+- GoldED 2.40
+ Origin: KC Central BBS [Raytown, MO] (1:280/22)
=============================================================================
Salue, All!
Thought this might be of interest for those who keep up on Steve Winter's
zany
antics.
--- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Waste of Time
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:30:34
--------
EID:881c 1b87a3c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d04e862
REPLY: 1:124/9005 1854a7fb
Salue, Jesse!
SQ> Hear the word of God: "For all who do evil hate the light and
do no
t
SQ> come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those
who
Hear ye the word of Shakespeare, which applies to many of these rants of
yours
:
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
--Macbeth
--- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Back to school with you
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:16:58
--------
EID:4046 1b878a00
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
4 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> That's a good one. A first in this forum? Well, as Steve
FR> pointed out, if one believes one silly, illogical, irrational
FR> bit of nonsense, one will believe just about anything. Virgin
FR> births and game boards being evil are equally silly.
Further proof of Barnum's Law. It's hilarious, isn't it?
... Beware of Quantum ducks (Quark!Quark!Quark!)
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: previous discuss on evolution
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:18:22
--------
EID:61e5 1b878a40
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
4 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
s>>> What about Her word?
FR>> Star Goat is _not_ a 'Her!'
sq>> But Dopefish is...when he feels like it.
FR> Does He walk up and down in front of the mirror looking at
FR> Himself?
Again, when he feels like it. :)
... Polls show that 8 out of 5 schizophrenics agree!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: You're all going to hell.
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:15:06
--------
EID:c206 1b8789e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
3 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>>> They feign moral indignation, get off a
sq>>> little flame, and then vanish completely.
FR>> Yep. No courage of their convictions, huh?
Not many, although I have to give Jesse SOME credit (although I still
think he's a Manson waiting to happen if his Bible is the only thing
that makes him behave).
FR> Oh I think they believe well enough... I just don't think they
FR> can stand to look at their beliefs too closely else they'll be
FR> forced to admit something to themselves about the reality of
FR> their deities -- something unpleasant. The very real
And although you don't like to talk about it, there's that GOD$LOVE.GIF
peering over their shoulders, asking to be heard.
FR> acknowledge by reading Hitlers' own words. One doesn't become
FR> a Good Boy just because they adopt a deity belief.
-Important point-.
FR> same. This one couldn't. Jesse makes it a "blasphemy."
Naturally. It would be a crime in any church to lift the curtain on
the church and say "See? Here's how it's REALLY done."
sq>> What kind of "faith" is that?
sq>> Faith in the gullibility of other human beings?
FR> Bingo. I think you found what it is, exactly, they have faith in.
I have faith in the gullibility of other human beings. I bet you do to
(Uh oh, dragging Fred into my lunacies!). What makes us like-minded people
different, then?
FR> combined forces of the believer. It's very possible that, if
FR> many of the participants here were to be as caustic in local
FR> forums towards our darkened brothers and sisters, we would have
FR> been called to tasks for it and suffered connection losses.
If we would do it on the local -level-, meaning "When Fundy comes to the
door, a group of people all holler 'Suprise!'". :)
FR> Not long ago we experienced a short sequence of events. First
FR> off, we found that the acknowledgement that Roberts Ciya is
FR> equal among all deities is a "blasphemy" to consider or answer
Wait till Jesse and I get started with Dopefish. He'll find that he
can 'blaspheme' with the best of 'em.
... You, in the red uniform: Wander out that way a little bit.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Mr. and Mrs. Ippi
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:22:46
--------
EID:1234 1b8732c0
Hector Plasmic, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Don Martin:
> >> DM> River? So's yer Old Man.
> > ML> Looks like someone's in over their head; and it ain't just in
> > ML> denial.
> > DM> Mekong waves, are you?
> ML> I just Congo on...I don't Kara, Sea?
DM> It sounds as if you're goin' Yalu on me.
> > DM> For my part, I shall flow all quiet.
> ML> You, the eternal littoralist.
DM> So saith the deposition . . .
HP> Oh, hell, here we go again. I've known you two for years, but still
HP> don't know how to turn the punning off once it gets started. Japan
HP> and Japan and I Kontiki any more.
So Sari. We didn't mean to Hanoi you.
Well, Oswego again.
When all this starts, I simply cannot Taraway. I guess everyone
on the sidelines gets a Minnedosa this stuff. No Moa. I'll
Czech Maitome and make sure it only goes to Herr Martin.
Mesabi? Bichir ¸s.
You savvy?
... Ketchum? Hell, I can't even find 'em.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: James Conwell
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:24:02
--------
EID:d798 1b873300
James Conwell, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Stewart
Harris
:
SH> try for you, will be able to duplicate it.
JC> Well, I for one am *very* interested in your experiment or proof.
JC> I am a true scientist.
Which field, may I ask?
JC> I admit that I don't know if the "theory of evolution" is basically
JC> correct or not. I have examined much evidence which strongly suggests
JC> that it is not.
Such as? I've been involved in science (specifically geology,
paleontology and paleozoology, to name but a few) for 20 years and
have yet to see any, much less "...much evidence which strongly
suggests..." evolutionary theory [Question: Which theory of
evolution?] is incorrect.
JC> I have also examined evidence which suggests that it
JC> is. I would like to know if it is true or not but then again I really
JC> don't care if it is or not.
Rather unscientific viewpoint, IMNSHO.
... And to think, he's the product of 3,800,000,000 years of evolution.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Robert Curry
Sub: The positive square root of negative 1.
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:46:06
--------
EID:9041 1b873dc0
Robert Curry, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Fredric Rice:
RC> On (03 Dec 93) Fredric Rice wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> I would ask how you tell the difference between a coincidence
RC> and whatever it is you mean by an "answer to prayer."
RC> What is it that distinguishes one from the other?
FR> You have a nasty habit of asking pointed questions, Bulldog.
RC>
RC> I like to be able to tell things apart. Sometimes it is difficult,
RC> though. For instance, how does one distinguish (in the context of
RC> the complex field) the two square roots of -1?
i know! i know!
... Mathematicians practice absolute freedom.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Don Martin
Sub: Modern history and modern historians
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:43:48
--------
EID:a127 1b873d60
Don Martin, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig:
DM> A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception --
DM> Modern history and modern -- with Don Martin on 03 Dec 93 11:23:
> JCJ> I did study the Roman Empire in a freshman Western Civilization
> JCJ> class;
ML> Would it be cruel here to wonder if Jesse received an "A+" for
ML> this magnum opus?
DM> Thesis, dammit! That's a THESIS!
"Feces" is probably a more apt description.
... As goatherd learns by goat, so a writer learns by wrote.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: David Rice
Sub: Purina Russian Chow (makes it's own gravy)
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:44:17
--------
EID:c180 1b873d80
David Rice, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig:
ML> But, yes, Russian chow ("Russian chow"...that's like saying
ML> "American food". Damn, there are so many different types by
ML> region and ethnic group that generalizations pale...) is very
ML> good. Quite simple usually (I really got tired of smoked
ML> salmon, smoked sturgeon and beluga caviar on my last trip
ML> over).
DR>
DR> Ah, fish that will die for a good fuck,
Fish that not only taste good but have good taste as well!
DR> another fish that sucks
DR> worms off the bottom, and unborn zygotes that even Randal Terry
DR> would not touch with a stick. I think I'll stay home and eat my
DR> tofu and avacado sandwich.
After which, you'll wash it down with a tall, frosty glass of
2,2,4,6 Diethylmethylselenomercaptan?
ML> I will agree that kartoufsop is excellent.
ML> I grew quite fond of what we euphemistically called "Mongolian
ML> Knots (or "Potstickers", depending on your tastes). They were
ML> like raviolis (meat filled pastry) in a thick onion, beet and
ML> cabbage broth. With sour cream, of course. They eat EVERYTHING
ML> with sour cream. Hell, if they could, they'd put sour cream on
ML> the air they breathe.
DR>
DR> Take the meat out
No out-of-context comments here.
DR> and it sounds great! Except for the sour cream.
DR> I guess that it's cheeper to let it go sour than to refridgerate
DR> it.
Yeah. But why the expiration date on the side of the carton?
ML> But, I digress.
DR>
DR> I digest.
Without animal protein, with distress.
ML> On my last trip, I ended up in Uzbekistan (heavy oriental,
[deleted for hilarity's sake]
ML> furtive voice..."Jim, I don't give a damn if it scotches the
ML> whole damn deal; but I ain't eating no sheep dick".
ML>
ML> My fears proved unwarranted. It was only the tongue of the
ML> beast.
ML>
ML> What a business...
DR>
DR> You risked an international incident and resultant nuclear holocaust
DR> over a little lunch?!
Uzbekistan has no nukes. They do have this strange dietary
proclivity of relishing great, grilled slabs of snow-white
animal fat.
Pass the Russkaya...
DR>If your lunch didn't turn you vegetarian,
DR> nothing will.
You're right. Nothing will.
DR> It reminds me of two nuns who went out into the world after being
DR> locked up in the nunnery for twenty years. They stumble across a
DR> hotdog stand and they each get a hotdog. One nun says to the other,
DR> "Oh dear. . . . What part of the dog did you get?"
Keep this up and I'll tell you of the nomadic Mongolian feast
I was feted at back a year or so ago. It started with fish and
ended up with camel. All in view of the Flaming Cliffs of the
Bayn Dzak.
Yours truly negatively excrements you.
... Homo-fundiculi: A virus on the hard-drive of life.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: David Rice
Sub: Turkey lurkings.
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:47:58
--------
EID:4cef 1b873de0
David Rice, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig:
>>ML> Can we say "Praise the Lord and pass the Pterosaur"?
>DR> Any bigger and he'd be eatting -YOU- for Thanksgiving.
ML> Damn thing was huge. Fed bunches and batches.
DR>
DR> Too bad we exterminated the Moa.
Alas, no moa...
ML> Aside: I'm carving this condor and doling out gobs of cranberry
ML> sauce and dressing when some local minister or other fundyized
ML> meatball comes wandering through with the local independent TV
ML> station in tow. He's blathering on and on about the "Christian
ML> generosity" being displayed here. "Funny" I thought, "I don't
ML> see any inquisitions going on..." But he's swaying and
ML> brashaying through the throng generally making a pompous ass of
ML> himself. He finally gets over by me and says (and I quote)
ML> "Isn't it a miracle that God provided this bounty for us to
ML> help the less fortunate!"
ML>
ML> I replied, as I shoveled the 100'th or so plate of chow over,
ML> "Wouldn't it be more of a miracle if God would have provided
ML> jobs for these folks in the first place instead?"
ML>
ML> Funny. I wasn't on TV that night...
DR>
DR> Wasn't god that collected the money, bought the bird, baked it,
DR> and served it. If I had been you, Marty, I'd have been damn bloody
DR> well pissed at such arrogant bullshit. Cook -HIM- but good.
Like swatting a mosquito with a cruise missile. He was making
enough of a fool out of himself without anyone's help.
DR> We had yet another fire here, losing twenty houses. No one was killed
DR> but one firefighter was injured. One man, standing in his nightgown
DR> and clutching a cat, said "Thank god my house was spared!" If only a
DR> firefighter would have popped that asshole one in the mouth. . . .
He'd be justified.
DR> Thanks should go to the good, fine people such as yourself, and these
DR> firefighters, and tens of thousands of other folks who put their time
DR> and efforts towards helping other people out. No god has ever done as
DR> much as a single human handing out sandwiches.
I do it out of a spirit of genuine altruism. These characters
need help, and I'm in such a position to help them. I don't do
it for cosmic brownie points with some illusory deity. I do it
because I want to and I can. Years ago, I came perilously close
to the same situation as a lot of these folks. I can empathize,
so I help.
DR> As an aside, a plumber accidently started the fire with his soldering
DR> iron. He was sobbing and inconsolable, telling all the people how
DR> sorry he was. A fighfighter put his arm around him, hugged him, and
DR> told him that it was okay--- he didn't mean to start the fire. There
DR> are no words I could say to express how much I honor and respect that
DR> firefighter. They are truely the last of a great breed; our last
DR> heros. Then to have some asshole thank "GOD" instead. . . . shit!
Exactly. I just go slightly crackers when some airliner
pancakes into a batch of row houses and some dimwit newsie
proudly proclaims "It's a miracle that only 125 people were
incinerated!"
Grrr.....
... If we weren't all crazy, we would all go insane.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Ariadne
Sub: Happy Thanksgiving...
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:53:51
--------
EID:d944 1b8736a0
Ariadne, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Martin Goldberg:
MG >I don't prey. Waste of time.
Ar> Ahh... but do you prAy?
See previous answer.
... "Hands that help are better than lips that pray."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Ariadne
Sub: souls and superstition
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:58:58
--------
EID:4534 1b873740
Ariadne, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Robert Curry:
RC >So we're talking _sentience_ rather than _life_? OK,
Ar> I was talking about sentience originally, if you remember rightly.
Ar> Life can be found in many forms. But sentience and intellect cannot.
RC >any highly
RC >organized nervous systems, but we do. The one word answer:
RC >brains.
Ar> So an ape is just as intelligent as we? Or a hippopotumus? Then why
Ar> don't they read and write? Communicate in more complex forms?
Some animals communicate in forms that are incredibly complex.
The lowly bat uses echolocation to communicate between itself,
its comrades and its prey. Certain South American fish
distinguish prey and potential mates by the slightest
perturbations of its internally generated electrical field.
What of bees (genus _Apis_) and their dances? How about cetaceans
and their underwater ultrasonics?
Yep. Animals do communicate in exquisitely complex forms.
Ar> I've heard many the scientist refer to that thing which keeps us alive
Ar> and living as we do, as "soul." Since it's a (so far) indescribable
Ar> thing, what matters the word we use?
If a scientist went on about a "soul", he was speaking personal
opinion and was well removed from the arena of science.
Ar> Okay, but fish have brains, as do birds, rhinos, polar bears... I
Ar> don't see them trying to kill us off for poisoning their atmosphere
Ar> (which would be an intelligent thing to do).
Intrude on their territory during the rut or breeding season
and see how long they remain so benevolent.
... A journey of a thousand miles is a hell of a long journey.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Ariadne
Sub: Birgin Virth
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:48:47
--------
EID:b50b 1b873e00
Ariadne, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Hector Plasmic:
HP > >HP >Then you mean that it's personal opinion, right?
HP > A>In some ways, yes.
HP >Copout. It's only personal opinion or you've got evidence.
HP >Which?
Ar> Hehe... you must have a rather sterile and boring life, my dear.
Ar> Prove to me that the sun goes around the earth; give me evidence.
Strawman. It does not, therefore there is no evidence to
support this claim. Just like claims of paranormal and
supernatural beings.
Ar> Give
Ar> me evidence that the moon isn't made of green cheese!
I worked at NASA's Lunar Receiving Laboratory and I can assure
you that the moon is a mass of only somewhat differentiated
silicate rocks dominated by ferrugineous mafic and basic to
ultrabasic rocks. You still want references?
Ar> It's personal
Ar> opinion;
Nope. It's scientific fact.
Ar> I believe that the earth goes around the sun, and I accept
Ar> that on faith (at least until I leave earth),
Why believe when all science asks you to do is think?
Ar> I believe that the moon
Ar> is made of dirt and rock (at least until I hold and eat a piece of the
Ar> fabled cheese), and I believe in Goddess. My point here is that it
Ar> doesn't make it any less "real."
It's non-evidentary, therefore unreal.
HP >Didn't. You mistake bluntness for anger. You also,
Ar> I don't think so. People being blunt don't go off in rages .
Ar> But that's okay... you're only an athiest, aren't you? We can make
Ar> excuses...
Ad hominem...
HP >madness, often even (or especially) to the testifier.
Ar> And who's to say that hallucination isn't reality of a sort?
Semantics.
Ar> It does
Ar> depend on one's definition of reality ;) Don't take yourself so
Ar> seriously, Hector. Learn to be silly. You believe things on faith,
Ar> whether you think you do or not. Because you don't know "everything"
Ar> and therefore must accept some things that other people tell you.
As long as they're logical, reasonable and evidential. This
instantly excludes anything of the "mystical" or "supernatural"
character.
... Be sure to treat your assumptions as though they are reality.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Swing low, sweet herniated disks...
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:45:30
--------
EID:3ffc 1b873da0
Hector Plasmic, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig
:
> DC> There's a book out there that explains the origin uf upright
> DC> walking, but i can't remember the name of it. I think one
> DC> of the reasons that standing upright is the placement of the
> DC> hip bones. This placement allows for a larger than normal
> DC> birth canal, meaning a larger head may be passed.
ML> Nope. Just a bonus of bipedality.
HP> I thought it was to free the hands for tool use...?
Or was it that those hands, now freed from the tyranny of
locomotion, we available for utilizing tools?
... Simple pleasures are the last refuge of the complex.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Matthew Gilliam
To: Brian Shreve
Sub: wow.
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:19:48
--------
EID:170a 1b86aa60
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 2d0539a0
Hey Brian -- My name is Matt and this is the first time I've logged on to
this
conference. I was browsing though and your comment about Jesus killing
himse
lf jumped off the page at me. Do you think he really did that. He knew
he mu
st die in order to accomplish his Father's will but the choice really wasn't
h
is. He was God and he came to Earth to accomplish eternal salvation for
all m
ankind. To reach that end, the plan of the Father was that he must die.
Jesu
s prayed that God would "remove this cup from me" but he knew that it was
God'
s plan and he was God's man for that plan. He didn't want to die, but he
did
want to be obedient to God. I think there's a distinction there, an important
one. What do you think?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Brian Shreve
To: Matthew Gilliam
Sub: wow.
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:59:58
--------
EID:5735 1b879760
MSGID: 1:106/113 38476742
Moved from "BIBLE" echo to here...
Greetings Matt!
In a msg on , Matthew Gilliam of 1:130/1008 writes:
MG> comment about Jesus killing himself jumped off the page at me.
It wasn't that dramatic of a statement of fact, was it?
MG> Do you think he really did that.
No I don't think He really did that... I _know_ He did that.
I realize it is hard to swallow, that Jesus Christ killed emself,
but no matter how you look at it, it was suicide. He had the power
and the strength to live, but He chose to die instead. When He was
on the cross even, He had the power to get emself off of that cross.
Similar to someone taking alot of pills in order to end his life,
he still, for a while, has the chance to call for help and get help
so he will continue to live.
If you or I or our neighbors did that, wouldn't we call it suicide?
MG> He knew he must die in order to accomplish his Father's will
We can rationalize it anyway we want to, but it doesn't change
facts that Jesus Christ committed suicide. A spade is a spade is
a spade.
MG> but the choice really wasn't his.
Whose was it?
MG> He was God and he came to Earth to accomplish eternal salvation
Jesus was God... the choice wasn't his to make....Hmmm. Something
doesn't sound right.
MG> for all mankind.
If you or I or our neighbor did something like that, we'd have him
committed to a mental health facility. And for a father to give his
son up to die a cruel, slow and painful death...I think the father
should be locked up to.
I can think of thousands of ways God could have made His message known
to the multitudes without His only son dying on a cross amongst those
condemned to die as criminals. Doing such an act as this, virtually
sealed the confusion that has lasted ever since those biblical times,
and undoubtedly will continue thru the life of the earth being inhabited
by man. Christians like strife and turmoil and control and religious wars,
they feed on it, thus are blinded to the insanity of christian teachings.
MG> To reach that end, the plan of the Father was that he must die.
Yeah, christians like that view, they go in droves to worship a person
like that. I'll never understand that. People followed David Koresh,
(Waco Burning) and Jimmy (James?) Jones (Guyana massacre) and the Moonies
love their leader too...we see them and run the other way...We see the
belief of christians in a God that sends his son to an awful death (if
He indeed did) to die for the sins of mankind....And we see that this
same god is going to send the little old lady who has done nothing but
good for strangers and friends and family, but just happens not to believe
in god....God is going to send this little old lady straight to hell?
I sure don't wish to worship this sort of a god!
And to shed more yuk stuff that makes me shiver...is the christian views
on the practice of satanic rituals, the drinking of blood. Then the christian
turns around and is supposed to drink and eat of Jesus' body. (symbolic)
The fact that christians do this, and THINK that is what their god wants
em to do...sheesh. Christianity is a wild wicked cult, drinking blood,
sign of the cross, and all the garmentry worn during christian rituals.
The wealth the church amasses, golden goblets and rings and rewards of
crowns full of jewels, paved streets of gold and other gems...Something
sounds strangely (well, not so strange, concidering even todays cults
are doing the same thing) similar to the satanic cult practices.
Who knows, with all the wickedry, the concept of christianity could
well be born from Satan himself!
We do have something in common, however....we both believe in the bible.
The only difference being, that you believe it is not tainted, where I
do believe it has been tainted by mankind in order to control others.
I believe a pleasant surprise awaits us all at the end of our lives,
we'll find this christian stuff to be full of malarky. That we're not
going to be subserviant to a God as christians describe Him to be.
And if I am wrong, may God have mercy on me.
Christians have their concept of God, and I have my own which is totally
unlike your own/theirs. I base my beliefs on common sense and reality,
as well as feelings and gut instincts, and from what all I can gleen
from the scriptures, even tho the scriptures are tainted, there is still
some validity to them.
I know, I know...you think I'm going to Hell, maybe you even THINK you
know thats where I am going . . . well, all I can say to that is this:
Christians and I both know the Roman road to salvation, and I know where
my bible is, and until I die, there is a chance I might see the light,
but that inspiration will have to come from Him, and not man.
Back to suicide... do you think Jesus could have gotten down from that
cross, and caused the people to let him walk away? Of course you do.
Jesus can do anything. That in itself proves my point, that Jesus
committed suicide. Now one must ask himself is suicide then justifiable
in some cases? (Most christians think suicide is wrong, and will surely
land em in hell should they take that route)
...Brian
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: Brian's Desk --- 713-451-6066 (1:106/113)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/113 2 15 449 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: FREEMASON echo
Date: 07 Dec 93 19:22:14
--------
EID:81ed 1b879ac0
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d04d80f
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Steve!
Tuesday November 30 1993, Steve Quarrella writes to All:
SQ> FREEMASON The Conference on
SQ> Freemasonry
SQ> -- Steve Quarrella Has Additional Comments --
SQ> Fascinating....
You bet... I may just pick it up!
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Lonnie Coleman
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: Where are we?
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:46:00
--------
EID:1081 0a105340
MSGID: 1:129/161 ab125db8
-> RC> On (01 Dec 93) Lonnie Coleman wrote to Robert Curry... RC> RC> At
-> least stone gods can be productively used as paperweights. RC> LC>
-> YES they can and perhaps one day may fall and crush you while you're
-> LC> bowing before them.
-> Although I do not wish to indulge in name-calling, I can with all
-> confidence say that you are ACTING LIKE A petty,
-> self-righteous, vindictive creep, Lonnie. And may god strike
-> me down for saying so.
->
-> (I can just see the next post..."Don't Worry, He Will! (smirk
-> smirk)")
You are mistaken... He is merciful to us all. It's only whether we choose
to
receive it.
--- TosScan 1.00
* Origin: MindLess One's BBS, Weirton WV, U.S.A. (1:129/161)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 129/161 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: jonny vee
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:58:20
--------
EID:42c6 1b87a740
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 055eec00
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido a996560c
> >> > Origin: In & out of the back door ran one front door angel (1:380/
> > jv>Why do the faithful have such a will
> > jv>To believe in something
> > jv>And call it the name they choose
> > jv>Having chosen nothing
> > "'twas said they could put men to sleep
> > with just a whisper
> > and touch the heads of dying dogs
> > and make them linger."
jv>Got to be my favorite album of theirs. I'd give my left nut to be
jv>able to sing like that. I can only consile myself that I am a
jv>better bassist.
Oh, play Bouree' for lunch, eh (Hammond-Hammond wasn't their only
bassist :-)?
Actually, I believe Ian would take that album back if he could. He
claims to have hated "Bungle in the Jungle"'s popularity, and a couple
of the songs were from other albums he never released because they were
so bad ("Skating Away (on the Thin Ice of a New Day)" comes to mind).
Gimme _Songs from the Woods_ anytime (should thrill our pagan readers :-).
"The rivers are full of crocodile nasties
And He Who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a Lover of Life, but a Player of pawns.
Yes, the King on His sunset lies waiting for dawn
To light up His jungle as play is resumed.
The monkeys seem willing to strike up the tune."
jv>Better stop talking about this, though; we're showing our age....
Hey, I had to wait in line for years to get to be an old fart. Lemme
enjoy it awhile.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: I'll sing you no lullaby (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: jonny vee
Sub: Re: EVOLUTION & INTELLIGENCE!
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:00:13
--------
EID:215e 1b87a800
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 055f5d00
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido a996560d
> > Katherine Ching is their propoganda meister. Warnings: when you
> > request literature, don't let them know you don't agree with them
> > 100% (they run chicken, put you on eternal hold, ignore your mail),
and
> > they will only send you one mirth packet without payment.
jv>What if I say, "The mean old evil-utionists in HOLYSMOKE are
jv>ganging up on me and I need information that will prove those
jv>Godless fiends WRONG WRONG WRONG!"
jv>Think that ought'a do it?
Probably a good idea. Martin played it straight with them, and I don't
think he ever got his mirth packet.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: The mouse police never sleeps (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: jonny vee
Sub: Re: Why? Because I said so!!!
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:09:30
--------
EID:6456 1b87a920
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 05618a00
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido a9965615
> > A couple of Von Neumann machines land on planets
> > with intelligent beings on them, melt the planets down, and use the
> > planet as raw materials to manufacture more such machines which go in
> > search of more intelligent planets to destroy.
jv>One would have to program the machines not to do such antisocial
jv>things.
Don't bet on it. Once you create self-reproducing machines, unless they
reproduce _perfectly_, natural selection comes into play. You may well
feed in R2D2 and get back a Berserker.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: "Who dies first?" (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Questions
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:19:22
--------
EID:786a 1b87aa60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0563da00
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa8ded46
SB>Your argument does not do much to convince me.
Steve, if god itself broke down your door and wrote something on your
forehead in fire, you'd just ask him "where is it in the bible, smart
guy?"
(BTW, congratulations on your newfound sense of humor)
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Actor of the low-high Q, let's hear your view. (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Don Martin
Sub: Re: Modern history and modern historians
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:31:10
--------
EID:0def 1b87abe0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 05669e00
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d01f812
> > JCJ> I did study the Roman Empire in a freshman Western Civilization
> > JCJ> class;
> ML> Would it be cruel here to wonder if Jesse received an "A+" for
> ML> this magnum opus?
DM> Thesis, dammit! That's a THESIS!
Master's Level. Whatever that means.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Slip the night from a shaved pack (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Flaming atheists
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:34:38
--------
EID:cc83 1b87ac40
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 05676e00
REPLY: 1:135/71 aa87c31a
JC> JCJ> I did study the Roman Empire in a freshman Western Civilization
JC> JCJ> class;
> ML> Would it be cruel here to wonder if Jesse received an "A+" for
> ML> this magnum opus?
JC> What is your point, Marty? I Aced the course, and went on to
JC>get an
JC>honors major in history, graduating Magna Cum Laude and Phi Beta
JC>Kappa.
ROFL! Don't forget to tell us your GPA, height, weight, and belt level
in karate.
You, like Rush Limbaugh, need to learn to stop telling folks how smart
you are and start demonstrating it instead.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: With chill mists swirling like petticoats in motion (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Critical thinking?
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:45:29
--------
EID:7b30 1b87ada0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0569f900
REPLY: 1:135/71 aa87c31b
> FR> It's funny; it look your McCarthyist beliefs to cause you to
> FR> self-destruct.
JC> Is this what passes for critical thinking among the allegedly "better
-
JC>educated" atheists here? I opine that the former USSR (a) was
JC>evil, and (b) was morally inferior to the USA.
Don't forget that you've been shown to be wrong.
JC>In response, you now say the above beliefs
JC>mean that I somehow embrace the tactics of Senator Joe McCarthy,
JC>who attacked everyone who refused to join him in ferreting out alleged
JC>communists in this country as themselves being communists.
You _did_ accuse Frederic of defending the USSR rather than realizing
that he was simply pointing out that you were wrong about the US being
morally superior. The shoe fits you like a glove, to mash some
metaphors.
JC>Your vile attack on my daring to impugn the former USSR as "evil"
See? There you go again. No one has denied that the USSR, or more
precisely some of its leaders, did bad things (evil? get a grip,
Jesse); not even Frederic. We _have_ pointed out that the USA has done
as bad or worse. You seem to think this is somehow justified because
the USA has some sort of nebulous "higher moral ground," which is the
real demonstrable bullshit here.
JC> You are not just criticizing the practices of the USA.
See? There you go again.
JC>your rejection of the noble ideals on which this nation is based
As noble as, say, communism and its goal of making all men equals?
See? There you go again, Jesse...
Communism's problem is that it doesn't take human nature into account.
People (as a whole) _won't_ share equally and _won't_ contribute maximum
effort without the promise of immediate personal gain; we're greedy and
we're lazy. Communism's excessive nobility is its downfall.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Kitchen prose and gutter rhymes (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Childish and evil game
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:51:54
--------
EID:7be5 1b87ae60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 056b7a00
REPLY: 1:135/71 aa87c31c
JC> It's all a game to you, isn't it, Fredric? You have no
JC>interest in rational discourse -- certainly no interest in hearing
JC>what any person of religious faith has to say
Strawman (and oxymoron) alert. Frederic often engages in rational
discourse. But your lumping "rational discourse" together with
"hearing what any person of religious faith has to say" demonstrates
that you haven't the foggiest idea of what you're talking about:
rational adj. Having or using the ability to reason.
Consistent with or based on reason; logical.
reason n. An underlying fact or cause that justifies the
rationale for a statement or conclusion.
faith adj. Belief not based on logical proof or material evidence.
There you have it, Jesse. What the faithful have to say about their
faith is _by definition not rational discourse_. You're railing that
Frederic won't have a rational discussion with you about an irrational
topic!
ROFL!
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Just a Baker Street Muse (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: jonny vee
Sub: Re: Why?
Date: 07 Dec 93 22:10:39
--------
EID:5045 1b87b140
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 056fdf00
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido a996560a
> > Strawman. We're talking about space-faring races, remember?
jv>Evidently YOU are.
This topic began with someone talking about how we've been visited by
aliens...
> > Suffering from the same problems you ascribe to watching for radio
> > waves. And many more, of course.
jv>Care to name them?
Trivial: Radio waves don't break down, get hit by debris, don't
generally go off course (except in the vicinity of extremely massive
bodies) or forget their programming. Besides being vastly more reliable
they're much, much, much cheaper to produce.
> > Speculate with the facts at hand, not wishful thinking, Jonny.
jv>What facts are you referring to?
Pay attention. Already gave 'em to you at least twice, with references,
no less.
jv>As I asked you before, how many extraterrestrial civilizations do
jv>you think there are in this galaxy? Or what would you consider a
jv>reasonable guess?
Dammit, Jonny, PAY ATTENTION. Already answered that one, too. :-) Gave
you Sagan's figures and said I saw no reason to disagree with them,
remember?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Livin' in a pay toilet (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: jonny vee
Sub: Re: Well, I was gone again
Date: 07 Dec 93 22:17:55
--------
EID:237f 1b87b220
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 05719300
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido a996560b
> > jv>I never could understand the appeal the horror genre has for some
> > jv>people
> > Both are subgenres of fantasy, and often overlap in ways obvious
jv>Don't say that to a "hard SF" aficionado.
Why not? They're well aware that all science fiction is fantasy, but
not all fantasy is science fiction. BTW, such notable hard SF authors
as Arthur C. Clarke have written horror stories (which were also science
fiction stories, which of course made them also fantasy stories). "The
Nine Billion Names of God" is pure horror. And perhaps you recall
something about the sound of claws clicking in the darkness _in front of
him_? :-) The Vang are about as scary as you can get, and they're hard
SF. Gibson's fiction contains a lot of horror (and a lot of humor, and
a lot of just about everything, usually all at once). The lines between
science fiction, horror and "pure" fantasy have always been blurred at
the edges.
> > Horror is universal. Everyone has known fear, and will know it
> > again.
jv>Fine.
Ain't it, though? :-)
jv>When I was in high school, a classmate of mine was arrested and
jv>eventually convicted of raping, murdering, and mutilating a
jv>nine-year-old.
He was just an excitable boy. Life imitates art imitates life imitates
art, and sometimes even creeps into the music. :-)
jv>I guess I've had all the horror I can use
You'll get more. Learn to deal with it. Learn to love the rope, lest
you choke on it.
(Don't take me too seriously :-)
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: I was a teenage toadsucker (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Erin Corliss
Sub: Re: .
Date: 07 Dec 93 22:20:27
--------
EID:fef1 1b87b280
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 05722b00
REPLY: 1:152/20 529f2b32
EC>A recent Christian bible banger buzz-phrase I've heard a few times
EC>of late goes "Everyone is a Christian inside.", or something to that
EC>effect. Even I have been called a "Christian inside".
Just remind them that their mother got fucked, just like yours. Be sure
to use those exact words.
One buzz-phrase deserves another.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: He who made kittens put snakes in the grass (1:380/16)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 380/5 25 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Jw's going away
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:36:36
--------
EID:1642 1b873c80
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A929E304
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #00604
Discussing Jw's going away with Comrade Fredric, Marty Leipzig remarked:
ML> Comrade Fredric, who gets a blast out of plasma detonics, said to
ML> Marty Leipzig:
ML>
St> If i'm gonna get buck-naked and debate religion, you have to come
St> here...no clothes, no travel.
St>
DM> If BUCK naked is what you get, you won't see any of MY doe.
DM>
ml> Kwitcher fawning...
ml>
CF> I dislike punsters of your elk!
CF>
ML> Such bull! Do you think I'll be cowed by this?
ML>
ML> I'll let you ruminate on that for a while....
Deer me!
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: "I like him. He's the same color as money." (1:154/40.2)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30458/2 154/40 77 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Don Martin
Sub: So..
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:43:34
--------
EID:5573 1b873d60
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A929E4A6
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #00604
Discussing So.. with Amy Anderson-Coffin, Don Martin remarked:
DM> A pregnant pause ensued as Amy Anderson-Coffin shared a conception --
DM> So.. -- with Kelsey Bjarnason on 03 Dec 93 17:44:
DM>
AA> P.S. Have you heard about the Helen Keller doll? You wind it up and
AA> it walks into a wall.
AA>
DM> And what is black and white, then black and off-white, then black and
DM> tan, then black and light brown, then black and dark brown, then black
DM> and black?
DM>
DM> A nun on a spit. (From the fertile mind of John Cleese, in a South
DM> Bank Show interview.)
Thanks, Don...that's one for the water cooler.
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: "I like him. He's the same color as money." (1:154/40.2)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30458/2 154/40 77 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Scripture
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:45:18
--------
EID:5b6b 1b873da0
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A929E50E
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #00604
Discussing Scripture with Jesse C. Jones, Steve Rose remarked:
> Quoting Stephen Vakil to Jesse C. Jones <=-
>
> Why don't you put your scriptures aside and think for _yourself_ once
in
> a while?
>
JCJ> This cliched response masks the undeniable fact that evangelical
JCJ> atheists have _no_ traditions to cite or to inform them on their walk
JCJ> on this planet.
JCJ>
SR> In other words, Stephen, Jesse's answer is obviously, "No!" How sad
SR> for him. ;-)
I think it's weird that I THOUGHT I had access to history and literature
to pr
ovide tradition if I wanted it, not to mention family. Guess I was wrong...
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: "I like him. He's the same color as money." (1:154/40.2)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30458/2 154/40 77 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Starwyn
Sub: testing 1,2,3
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:58:24
--------
EID:d406 1b873f40
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A929E820
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #00604
Discussing testing 1,2,3 with Amy Anderson-Coffin, Starwyn remarked:
AA> Please let us know what these other tests are! The previous tenant
of
AA> our house LOVED to let fundies and JWs in, so they probably have us
AA> targeted and I wanna know what to do! (My own family just used to
AA> hide in the living room when JWs rang the bell.)
Sn> If you don't want to mess with them, firmly (And I stress the firm)
Sn> tell them you're very comfortable in your beliefs and to please leave.
Sn> if they try and pull you into a discussion on what those beliefs are,
Sn> tell them that this is a private thing for you and again, you don't
Sn> wish to discuss it. Then strongly urge them to leave. You don't have
Sn> to be aggressive about it, but you do need to be assertive.
Grrrr...can't wait for them to show up...we're training our cats to jump
for t
he throat at the sound of the words "May I share something with you?"
Sn> * Origin: My Inner Child Is A Sick Little Bitch!
Sn>
AA> This is GREAT and I've been meaning to tell you so.
AA>
Sn> There have been a few that took great offense at this tagline...(Which
Sn> is exacttly why its on here!) :)
Yay! Polymorphous Perversity!
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: "I like him. He's the same color as money." (1:154/40.2)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30458/2 154/40 77 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Thanksgiving greetings
Date: 07 Dec 93 12:42:10
--------
EID:74f3 1b876540
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A92A2AA2
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #00604
Discussing Thanksgiving greetings with Amy Anderson-Coffin, Steve Quarrella
re
marked:
SQ> Hwaet, Amy!
SQ>
SQ> 4 Dec 93, dixit Amy Anderson-Coffin ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>
AA> My happiest! If you ever come to Milwaukee, we'll be glad to put you
AA> up in our garage...
AA>
SQ> Oh, thank you!
SQ>
SQ> Actually we were just in Milwaukee back in September. We went to my
SQ> best friend's wedding in Madison, and I had to take Suzy through "Beer
SQ> City". But is the Pabst any good in Milwaukee? :)
Beast is Beast, and Pabst is Pabst. Not much good ANYWHERE. I prefer Berghof
f Dark.
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: "I like him. He's the same color as money." (1:154/40.2)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30458/2 154/40 77 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Amy Anderson-Coffin
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: ALL HAIL KENOSHA
Date: 07 Dec 93 12:47:05
--------
EID:5886 1b8765e0
MSGID: 1:154/40.2 A92A2BC9
PID: MacWoof 1.5.3 Serial #00604
Discussing ALL HAIL KENOSHA with Amy Anderson-Coffin, Marty Leipzig remarked:
AA> Marty, I love you. You drink Cool Beer! Come to our next Australia
AA> Day party! We're in Milwaukee, just off Brady. (Seriously...we
AA> should! You and the husby would get along REAL GOOD!)
AA>
ML> See above, Re: September.
ML>
ML> As for Foster's try my "South Seas Black and Tan": equal parts
ML> Foster's Lager and Sheaf Stout. Caution: The floor may come up and hit
ML> you in the face after a couple of these.
Peter will go nutzoid over this.
ML> P.S. The bullheads still biting good at the Dam?
I'm afraid to look, as they've doubtless mutated into something totally
unreco
gnizable by this time...
--- MacWoof 1.5.3
* Origin: "I like him. He's the same color as money." (1:154/40.2)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 30458/2 154/40 77 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: CARL SAGAN AGAIN!
Date: 07 Dec 93 08:27:20
--------
EID:688c 1b874360
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d043eef
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbdf
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Comrade:
In a msg of , Comrade Fredric writes to Tyler
A. Wu
nder:
taw>> Slightly off topic, but can you fill me in
taw>> on some facts about marijuana in the Netherlands?
CF> I don't know much about the costs and quantity that one may buy as I
woul
d
CF> rather get my kicks from the domestic female population and Diet Coke.
That's too bad -- in our moral issues class, it was posed that legalizing
a drug would decrease its price (and have an effect on decreasing drug relate
d theft). I was curious if that had been the case in the Netherlands.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: True colors
Date: 07 Dec 93 08:30:16
--------
EID:273d 1b8743c0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d043f6d
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbe4
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Comrade:
In a msg of , Comrade Fredric writes to Tyler
A. Wu
nder:
DC>> Actually, I'm a moral relativist and do
DC>> not believe that moral absolutes exist.
taw>> The problem with moral relativism is that ultimately nothing is
taw>> wrong/right, and it would seem that actions cannot be sanctioned
taw>> on a moral basis (e.g. killing you).
CF> Except that "ultimate" doesn't factor in on a day-to-day basis. At
any
CF> single moment, there _are_ morality and ethics subscribed to. When
neede
d,
CF> a morality is discarded.
Problem is, as true moral relativism stands, nothing is ever right or wro
ng. Assuming my understanding is correct, I don't think that's what Derek
mea
nt.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: James Conwell
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 07 Dec 93 08:40:40
--------
EID:901c 1b874500
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d044276
REPLY: 1:106/7512 d6493c82
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day James:
In a msg of , James Conwell writes to Stewart Harris:
JC> Well, I for one am *very* interested in your experiment or proof.
JC> I am a true scientist.
You'll forgive me if I observe that your word-choice makes me think you
a
ren't. I have yet to see a person with actual credentials in a scientific
fie
ld designate themselves as a "true scientist".
If you are a "true scientist", what are your credentials? Your area of
e
xpertise?
JC> I admit that I don't know if the "theory of evolution" is basically
corre
ct
JC> or not.
Which theory?
JC> I have examined much evidence which strongly suggests that it is
JC> not.
Such as?
JC> please consider going through it with me. I would be most thankful.
In
JC> fact, if you can do everything you said, then I will pay you $100 myself.
According to another user on this echo, the experiment Mr. Harris propose
s to perform has already been done. Either he is not describing his "miraculo
us endeavour" accurately, or he's already been blown out of the water.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Why do we care?!?
Date: 07 Dec 93 08:45:16
--------
EID:a3a6 1b8745a0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d044311
REPLY: 1:106/7512 9e05dad0
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Stewart:
In a msg of , James Conwell writes to Stewart Harris:
SH>> Just as a matter of curiosity, is there anything in the dogma of
SH>> evolutionary theory which allows for any physical process to
SH>> dramatically improve overnight! That's realtime to which I am
SH>> referring. (I don't end sentences with prepositions, but that's on
SH>> another level of intelligence, one that appears to be unknown within
SH>> the
SH>> confines of the evolutionary theorists herein assembled.)
Either that, or some of us recognize that style allows for a lot of anal
retentive grammar to go out the window. It may be a split infinitive, but
I s
till prefer "To boldly go where no man has gone before" to "To go boldly
where
no man has gone before".
Or perhaps you would like to dissect the works of the english lit. canon
and criticize their poor grammar, as well?
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Life's meaning
Date: 07 Dec 93 11:44:32
--------
EID:f8c0 1b875d80
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d046d4d
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Jesse:
In a msg of , Robert Curry writes to Jesse C. Jones:
Jesse, I notice that you have accused Robert Curry of stating that withou
t your god life has no meaning, because he claimed that life had no ultimate
m
eaning. Let's offer the following:
1) there is no ultimate bagel
2) there is no ultimate telephone answering machine
3) there is no ultimate plastic bag
Yet, I am happily eating a bagel, looking at my telephone answering machi
ne and also looking at my second bagel which is within a plastic bag.
The moral of the story, kids, is that something doesn't have to have an
"
ultimate" existence to exist. When someone says life has no "ultimate"
meanin
g, this is not the same as saying that life has no meaning.
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Ariadne
Sub: Scope of Echo
Date: 07 Dec 93 11:53:10
--------
EID:1359 1b875ea0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d046ef4
REPLY: 1:153/826 529fbd92
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Ariadne:
In a msg of , Ariadne writes to Kitty-Kat:
KK >> information on
KK >> Celtic mythology. I'm also looking for people who'd like to
KK >> discuss Catholicism with an open mind and in a charitable
KK >> spirit?
A> You won't find anyone willing to talk sensibly in here.
Does that include yourself, Ariadne?
A> their religious beliefs onto the echo. Some come to lurk. But very
few
Which is it? She won't find anyone to talk sensibly, or she'll find very
few?
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 07 Dec 93 12:24:50
--------
EID:f6f6 1b876300
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d0477d0
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a03d9e
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Ariadne:
In a msg of , Ariadne writes to Hector Plasmic:
A> Hehe... you must have a rather sterile and boring life, my dear. Prove
to
A> me that the sun goes around the earth; give me evidence.
Why would he want to prove that the sun goes around the earth?
A> Give me evidence
A> that the moon isn't made of green cheese!
Burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim -- you don't prov
e a negative.
A> It's personal opinion; I believe
A> that the earth goes around the sun,
First, then why did you want him to prove that the sun goes around the ea
rth? Secondly, this sounds like the ludicrous school of "all beliefs have
equ
al merit". Is this what it is?
A> and I accept that on faith (at least
A> until I leave earth),
Your use of the word "faith" is inappropriate. You don't have to leave
e
arth to provide sufficient evidence for its orbitting the sun. Of course,
I s
uppose you will claim that you have the right to believe that Galileo (and
oth
ers who came to the same conclusion) had a spacecraft...
A> that's okay... you're only an athiest, aren't you? We can make excuses...
If he's an athiest, are you a whikken?
---
* Origin: Self-professed geniuses aren't (FidoNet 1:221/279.4)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Matt Coleman
To: All
Sub: kill niggers now
Date: 08 Dec 93 01:42:58
--------
EID:ec24 1b880d40
MSGID: 1:396/21.0 2d057772
* Original Area: Sysop
* Original To : Mike Perry (1:396/21)
* Original Subj: Niggers
I hate niggers. Kill em all now!
--- Maximus 2.00
* Origin: The Dungeon (1:396/21)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 396/21 15 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Christian Soldier
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: the order of things
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:54:14
--------
EID:5481 1b87aec0
MSGID: 1:123/67 2d0541fb
There is ample evidence of "extreme moral order". There seems to be a com
mon "order" concerning how people should properly behave toward one another.
A
nd this social "order" transcends religion, race, sex, time, and geographic
lo
cation. People throughout the world and throughout history have generally
agr
eed that honesty is the best policy ... that killing one another is wrong
...
that helping somebody in need is a good and proper thing to do ... that
taking
care of your children is a responsibility ... etc. There seems to be an
over
whelming consensus on proper human behavior amongst all cultures and religions
. Don't you agree? Why is there no evidence of another significant form
of h
uman interaction? I know of none.
Undoubtedly there have been abberations of this human behavior ... like
th
e Nazi treatment of Jews ... but those are simply abberations ... just like
th
ere are abberations in the physical laws ... the ones we can't explain.
SS> "Extreme order of our universe" is not a miracle. It is
SS> explained by laws of physics.
I keep hearing statements similar to this from all of you guys. Can't you
see the extreme contradiction in this statement?
I claim that there seems to be an uncanny order in our universe that seems
to adhere to a set of laws. You say that all that order is the simple manife
station of the laws of physics. You, yourself use the word LAW when referring
to physics. Why is there even any LAWS OF PHYSICS? Where did such order
com
e from such that we even HAVE a LAWS OF PHYSICS?
We can hold a ball above the ground a certain distance and we can predict
how far it will bounce up in the air after impacting the floor by using
equati
ons of physics. What would you say if the ball bounced up a different,
random
distance with each similar experiment? What if there was no way to quantify
or predict the movement of celestial bodies because there motion seemed
to be
random?
Heck, there is so much order in this world, we can even predict HOW random
a random event will be.
--- GoldED 2.41
* Origin: MANICS FOR JESUS!! ..oh never mind, I'm really bummed... (1:123/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 123/67 44 301 19 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: History
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:35:30
--------
EID:981f 1b881460
On (05 Dec 93) Fredric Rice wrote to Robert Curry...
FR>> And when you last had lunch with Zaphod Beeblebrox.
rc> The last time would have been during all that controversy
rc> over the Ninth Revelation of the the Great Dodecaheaded One.
rc> The pepperoni was _very_ salty.
FR> ^^^^^^
FR> <-gasp-!> A hidden pepperfiend message!
The Ninth Revelation is no such thing. Thou shalt not blaspheme.
... Do you know Allah? If you do, tell him he owes me a dollar.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Ariadne
Sub: better than memory
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:36:47
--------
EID:bdf3 1b881480
On (04 Dec 93) Ariadne wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> So we're talking _sentience_ rather than _life_? OK,
A> I was talking about sentience originally, if you remember rightly.
If I accept your revisionism, but I don't. You said originally:
.--- On (27 Nov 93) Ariadne wrote to Martin Goldberg...
|
| Life has energy. Energy doesn't just disappear. That which
| keeps you alive (soul, or whatever you want to call it) has
| energy and life of its own. Even the Christians believe *that*!
|
| When you die, it doesn't just disappear... that'd be contrary
| to physics!
|
`--------
"Life has energy." That sounds like _life_ to me, not sentience.
"That which keeps you alive [...] has energy and life of its own."
Not a hint of sentience as the subject matter there, either - just
something that keeps one alive.
Did you really think you could bullshit your way out of this one?
Nice try, Allyson, but I have something better than memory: your
original posts. So now that you know your selective memory will be
corrected when necessary, you may cut the crap.
... To err is human. To blame someone else is politics.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Ariadne
Sub: conscious animals
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:38:53
--------
EID:f271 1b8814c0
On (04 Dec 93) Ariadne wrote to Robert Curry...
A> Life can be found in many forms. But sentience and intellect cannot.
^^^^^^
Who knows how many forms there are in which these can be found?
Are you pretending to know everything, or have you failed (yet again) to
engage your brain before setting your fingers loose with such claims?
A>> Then explain to me [...] why a tree or a bacterial culture is not
A>> sentient, while we (supposedly) are.
A>> What makes us have these things which we've named "soul" or
A>> "conciousness" ?
RC> The one word answer: brains.
A> So an ape is just as intelligent as we? Or a hippopotumus?
No, but they are certainly more intelligent than a tree or bacterial
culture. You asked about consciousness. Apes _are_ conscious.
RC> My short answer remains as above: without a brain, what
RC> consciousness have you?
A> Okay, but fish have brains, as do birds, rhinos, polar bears...
Yes? They all seem conscious of their environments, too, to various
degrees. Intelligence is relative, not the same for every animal.
... Ghosts are merely unsubstantiated roomers.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Ariadne
Sub: souls and superstition
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:42:54
--------
EID:9560 1b881540
On (04 Dec 93) Ariadne wrote to Robert Curry...
A> All I'm saying is that our consciousness, or soul, or intellect...
A> [...] All these things humans have, and yet animals don't.
No, that's not all you are saying, forgetful one - you said that:
A>> Life has energy. Energy doesn't just disappear. That which
A>> keeps you alive (soul, or whatever you want to call it) has
A>> energy and life of its own. Even the Christians believe *that*!
You may retract it if you like, but don't pretend you never said it.
A> And many animals have just as developed brains... so what's your point?
My point is that your "ghost in the machine" is superstitious bunk.
A> I'm not claiming you're wrong. I'm not claiming I'm right.
You _are_ claiming (about a "soul") that:
A>> When you die, it doesn't just disappear... that'd be contrary
A>> to physics!
Or do you retract that assertion now as unsupportable?
You really didn't think you could just pretend that you never typed
these ridiculous claims here in the echo - did you?
... Nice argument; too bad it was killed by those vicious facts.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Ariadne
Sub: Our first Wiccan Fundy
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:45:05
--------
EID:7333 1b8815a0
On (04 Dec 93) Ariadne wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> So have you any reason to believe that a "soul" persists after death?
A> Sigh... Without the means to meet you and do certain things, I
A> couldn't change your opinion.
Stick with the evidence, and how can you go wrong? As for your doing
certain things (see above) would that include a blow job?
A> In short, yes, I have many reasons to believe that some part of us
A> (which I generally choose to call "soul") goes on in existance.
So state your reasons, already.
Or do I have to wait until you meet me and suck my dick, first?
A> I believe that that part is sentient, although not as we are sentient
A> right now.
We already know you are a superstitious fundy moron - no need to babble
continuously about "I believe! I believe!"
A> I believe it for various reasons,
So state your reasons, already. "I believe! I believe!" is all bark
and no bite.
A> but mostly because I have been convinced through communications with
A> those I've seen buried. Yea, I know, I sound like a flippin' fundy...
Ducks will quack.
A> But I find it difficult to ignore the "proof" of my eyes and ears
A> and hands. I guess it would be like asking a Christian who's stuck
A> his hand into Christ's side or hands to disbelieve.
Hell, you can stick your fist up Christ's ass for all I care, or at
least "believe" you have done so, but so far you have done nothing but:
1. Make superstitious claims,
2. Assert that you have evidence (reasons) for these claims, and
3. Babble without ever touching upon any evidence.
A> But if you come up with something other than speculation, I might
A> be willing to look at it.
I don't care to speculate about why you avoid evidence. You tell me.
A> My point being, you have no more proof than I do .
Well, Allyson, I certainly have no evidence (or reason to think) that
a "soul" persists after death, so obviously I have no more than you do.
But the question is: Do you have any more than I do?
A> And at the very least, I get comfort and and good feeling out
A> of being a Wiccan...
And here I am getting the same just being human. How odd.
... "I believe it and that is all that matters." - Steve Bedard, 9/4/93
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Ariadne
Sub: Outlaw it!
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:47:42
--------
EID:3359 1b8815e0
On (05 Dec 93) Ariadne wrote to Dan Sereduick...
A> I hate fundies of all stripes, to be honest. Especially ones that
A> claim they're not ;)
So how long have you felt this terrible self-loathing? :-)
DS> we need not defend our beliefs.
A> Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I defend my (and your) right to believe
A> as you will, so long as you're not murdering anyone
Murderers have the right to believe as they wish, too. After all, it's
not their _beliefs_ that get them arrested, but their actions.
It's not your beliefs, Allyson, but your action of posting them as fact.
A> I think that children under the age of majority should be disallowed
A> from religious congregations, though... Let them read about it if
A> they will, but make it illegal to teach them in school or at home,
A> until they're old enough to make up their own minds.
Make it illegal?
I prefer Marilyn Burge's perspective on that - she would defend the right
of religious people to raise their children as they see fit.
And she's a member of American Atheists!
... If it's not private netmail, then it's a public free for all.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Bigot
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:50:19
--------
EID:2223 1b881640
On (05 Dec 93) Hector Plasmic wrote to Steve Bedard...
SB> As I said in my original message, if these things are not affecting
SB> how they teach, there is no reason why they can't teach.
HP> Now, Steve, that's a lie. Here's exactly what you said:
SB>> Does anyone really want people with abnormal lifestyles
SB>> teaching children?
If they lie here, where they know people are likely to check up on
them, just think how many lies they repeat elsewhere!
... "Let's visit the tomb," he intoned cryptically.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Erin Corliss
Sub: inside...
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:51:24
--------
EID:6bac 1b881660
On (04 Dec 93) Erin Corliss wrote to All...
EC> A recent Christian bible banger buzz-phrase I've heard a few times
EC> of late goes "Everyone is a Christian inside.", or something to
EC> that effect. Even I have been called a "Christian inside".
First listen to sermon. THEN eat missionary. :-)
Until you follow those instructions (swiped from a popular tagline),
you will always feel a great "emptiness inside" - another bible banger
buzz phrase, btw.
... Sacrilege: Anything damaging to things sacred, especially truth.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Childish and evil game
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:52:38
--------
EID:95d6 1b881680
On (05 Dec 93) Jesse C. Jones wrote to Fredric Rice...
JCJ> Can't you find any better support than the likes of Sean, Curry,
JCJ> Hector, et al.,
I've been meaning to go through my archives when I have the time to see
just where you changed from "Robert" to "Curry" in these references.
I vaguely recall some "Bob"s and "Bobby"s somewhere in there, but it
should be interesting to see just what triggered you to the last name
basis in my case. It is an anomaly, and anomalies fascinate me.
JCJ> You're a loser, Fredric.
That liberal Christian "love" in action again, I see. :-)
JCJ> You're a loser, Fredric.
JCJ> But God loves you, Fredric, and so do I.
You're a loser, Jesse.
But Ciya loves you, Jesse, and so do I.
JCJ> It is never too late to listen to that still small voice inside.
All yours ever seems to whisper is, "Hate! Hate! Blasphemy! Hate!"
Painting all atheists with this prejudice of yours is rather sick.
... Belief without evidence is no more than self delusion.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Lonnie Coleman
Sub: Where are we?
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:54:13
--------
EID:79a8 1b8816c0
On (06 Dec 93) Lonnie Coleman wrote to Robert Curry...
RC>> At least stone gods can be productively used as paperweights.
LC>> YES they can and perhaps one day may fall and crush you while
LC>> you're bowing before them.
RC> Sorry, doofus, but you're the groveller before gods, not I.
RC> Atheists have considerably more sense in that matter, in case you
RC> haven't noticed.
LC> So I take it you're an atheist?
Correct. I do not have any belief in the existence of a god or gods
(except in the human imagination, that is - they exist there just fine).
So I take it you're a groveller before gods?
LC> I've been wondering what this conference is about.
Debunking religious nonsense, mostly, although you might find almost
anything in here.
Ciya might even visit one day.
LC> Thanks for the info.
Glad to be of some assistance. You're welcome.
... "My stereo is half fixed," he told us monotonously.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: EVERYONE SHUT UP!
Date: 08 Dec 93 03:02:56
--------
EID:c139 1b881840
On (06 Dec 93) Dan Sereduick wrote to Derek Clayton...
DC> What about beliefs that promote hatred either directly or
DC> indirectly? Should these remain unchallenged?
DS> Yes, they should, until they infringe on others' rights.
So go hide in your little dream world where no one ever speaks up
for fear of possibly offending someone who can't stand questions.
DS> Just [...] respect that these people have their beliefs.
I respect their right to have them _and_ I challenge them.
... This is not Burger King. You do not get it YOUR way.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: You laughed... {sob!}
Date: 08 Dec 93 03:04:03
--------
EID:a6d5 1b881880
On (06 Dec 93) Dan Sereduick wrote to Fredric Rice...
FR> Nonsense. He's calling her on her occult claims; nothing more.
DS> No, he's looking at her occult claims, laughing out loud and
DS> pointing his finger.
And laughing some more. Is it his fault that she's a fuckin' hoot?
DS> This attitude is what separates our country.
Separates it from your never-never land of bunnies and light, perhaps.
... "I struck oil!" he gushed.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Jay Noyes
Sub: Fundamentalists of all stripes
Date: 07 Dec 93 14:42:03
--------
EID:10ce aa0d5ab3
MSGID: 1:206/2720 aa8d954c
REPLY: 1:11/156.0 2cfffde6
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> AB> An idea which can only be proven if one believes it
> AB> is in essence self-justifying. Self-justifying
> AB> beliefs are perhaps not all intolerable; induction
> AB> seems to be one such. However, we have good reason
> AB> to try to limit them as much as possible. Let me
> AB> give you an example of another self-justifying
> AB> belief, the Principle of Counter-Induction:
> AB> CI: If in a set of similar circumstances, sharing
> AB> the characteristic A, the event B has always
> AB> followed, then the next time those circumstances
> AB> arise, B will not occur.
> AB> The reason why it's called the Principle of Counter-
> AB> Induction should be obvious. And it is obviously
> AB> absurd. It is, however, fully self-justifying.
> AB> Consider any case in the past when you might have
> AB> used this principle. In virtually every case, it
> AB> would have failed. Thus, by CI, the next time you
> AB> try to use the principle it won't fail.
> Very interesting. Tell me, what would you think
> of the idea that, hypothetically speaking, ghosts were
> real, but we could only perceive them and be affected
> by them if we believed, or were honestly willing to
> believe in their existance.
I think what I've said above should already have made my position clear.
I wo
uld be very suspicious indeed. The idea has, to borrow a phrase from a
source
I've forgotten, something of the form of a closed curve in space.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/2708 2711 2718 2720 209/208
209
SEEN-BY: 209/710 720 770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11
SEEN-BY: 396/1 640/75
PATH: 206/2720 2708 209/710 209 102/2 851
--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: New Creationists Books
Date: 07 Dec 93 14:51:04
--------
EID:10ce aa0d5ab4
MSGID: 1:206/2720 aa8d954d
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a98aa3f7
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> ab> All our means of measuring time are dependent on the speed of
> ab> light in such a way that we could never measure the speed to be
> ab> other than it presently is. In the absence of any priviledged
> ab> frame of reference (and Einstein was quite clear that there isn't
> ab> one) this is equivalent to saying that the speed of light could
> ab> never be other than what it presently is.
> Distances need not change with a change in the speed
> of light. Though it probably would depending upon
> whether the attraction and repulsion forces, nuclear
> and weak, also change. All in all, this stuff is too
> heavy for a mere programmer to understand. Well this
> one any way.
That distance wouldn't change is precisely the point. If the speed of light
d
rops to half what it was, the flow of time also drops to half what it was.
Th
us, the amount of time required for light to travel a particular difference
re
mains the same. So far as I know, all the other phenomena you mention would
r
emain proportional, so none of them could be used to measure the change.
To m
ake this clearer, so far as I know there is no reason not to say that the
loca
l speed of light slows down for a vessel travelling close to the speed of
ligh
t, but that the crew doesn't notice because time slows down. This is equivale
nt to saying that time slows down for such a ship simpliciter, but that
the ob
served speed of light remains constant, which is what physicists are more
incl
ined to say. If any of your other phenomena were not directly linked to
the s
peed of light, there would be observable differences.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/2708 2711 2718 2720 209/208
209
SEEN-BY: 209/710 720 770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11
SEEN-BY: 396/1 640/75
PATH: 206/2720 2708 209/710 209 102/2 851
--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Modern history and modern historians
Date: 07 Dec 93 14:57:05
--------
EID:10ce aa0d5ab5
MSGID: 1:206/2720 aa8d954e
REPLY: 1:135/71 aa87c31d
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> Well, I wouldn't deny that. But my classroom
> notes say that more
> contemporary historians appear to attribute the fall
> of the Empire more to
> economic forces and to the growing strength of the
> so-called barbarians than to
> any intellectual flaws within the Empire. I don't
> have any cites readily at
> hand, but I know that _all_ theories of historical
> change have radically
> changed since Gibbon's time.
Really? In one of my courses on ancient history, my professor compared
the th
eories of a pair of ancient historians (I think one of them was Herodotus,
and
I'm sure I don't remember the other one) about the reasons for a major cultur
al change in northern Italy early in the first millenium BC; Herodotus,
if ind
eed it was him, argued that there was a migration and the original inhabitants
were supplanted by the newcomers, while the other figure, also from the
ancie
nt period, claimed that the natives simply changed radically as a result
of th
eir contact and trade with other civilizations, most notably the Greeks.
His
conclusion was that the latter view was right, and that the reasons said
ancie
nt historian gave (that the migrations were pretty well known to have ended
we
ll before the first millenium BC) was perfectly adequate. That's one theory
a
bout history which seems not to have changed since ancient times; are you
real
ly so confident that Gibbon's has to have been rejected in 1/10th the time?
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 206/2708 2711 2718 2720 209/208
209
SEEN-BY: 209/710 720 770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11
SEEN-BY: 396/1 640/75
PATH: 206/2720 2708 209/710 209 102/2 851
--------
From: James Conwell
To: Tim Bennett
Sub: Re: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 8 Dec 93 00:36:47
--------
EID:26ad 1b880480
MSGID: 1:106/7512 39cc9485
TB> foreign country? Also does not the babble say, 'Thou shalt not kill'?
TB> I
TB> don't think it says that there are times when it is ok to kill, it
TB> says
TB> thou shalt NOT kill, any time for any reason.
The Bible doens NOT say not to kill any time for any reason. The Bible
gives
LOTS of instances where killing is acceptable or required.
Just thought you should know.
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/7512 993 9788 888 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: James Conwell
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 8 Dec 93 00:57:28
--------
EID:0728 1b880720
MSGID: 1:106/7512 1fde1afc
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a692ae2c
FR> another $100.00 United States dollars if you can disprove the
FR> immutable fact of evolution.
You keep using the term "immutable fact of evolution".
Why?
I was taught in school about a "theory of evolution". In fact, I have never
h
eard anyone use the phrase "immutable fact of evolution" to explain life
on ea
rth.
do you have scientific proof of the "immutable fact of evolution" (as it
relat
es to living organisms on earth) ?
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/7512 993 9788 888 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: James Conwell
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: An unanswered question
Date: 8 Dec 93 01:07:51
--------
EID:b3bb 1b8808e0
MSGID: 1:106/7512 ba8dd732
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a7895f0b
What is so amazing about a baby being born from a virgin?
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/7512 993 9788 888 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: DEREK CLAYTON
Sub: Problem
Date: 06 Dec 93 12:24:00
--------
EID:A4C7 F3866300
DC> MS>> I am glad you liked it. (The object of the comment didn't. I guess
it
DC> MS>> was too subtle for him). Although 100% proof of the existance of
DC> MS>> anything is probably not possible, it is possible to show that
it is
DC> MS>> reasonable to assume that things do exist. Like for example that
car
DC> MS>> that is presently speeding in your direction at 50 miles an hour.
I
DC>Did you get my reply to this message? I have a feeling that it might
have
DC>been mailed into oblivion because of some changes that have occurred
on the
DC>BBS that I use.
I did not get it. I have had some problems with my software, but that
should not have effected it.
* OLX 2.1 TD * cogito ergo . . . get into a lot of arguments
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
* Origin: Holman's World Queens, NY (718) 529-8890 (@FIDONET.ORG) (1:278/402)
SEEN-BY: 13/0 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
SEEN-BY: 112/1 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/0 10 30 60 917 278/3 402 624 712 5000
SEEN-BY: 278/6000 7000 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 2603/3
PATH: 278/402 6000 3 273/10 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: DEREK CLAYTON
Sub: Problem
Date: 06 Dec 93 12:45:00
--------
EID:A4C7 F38665A0
DC> SV> I think it _is_ reasonable to assume that our senses are
DC> SV> correct, simply because of one fact: our entire frame
of
DC> SV> mind is _based_ on this, and even if it is not true, we
DC> SV> have formulated "truth" based on what _we_ know, not what
DC> SV> exists. For instance, take a white piece of chalk. What
DC>I think that Moshe and I are using the assumption (perhaps incorrectly)
tha
t
DC>all things either absolutely exist or absolutely do not exist regardless
of
DC>perception.
Derek it is quite valid, either something exists or it doesn't, there
are not degrees of existance (as there would be with health for
example).
* OLX 2.1 TD * cogito ergo . . . get into a lot of arguments
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
* Origin: Holman's World Queens, NY (718) 529-8890 (@FIDONET.ORG) (1:278/402)
SEEN-BY: 13/0 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
SEEN-BY: 112/1 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/0 10 30 60 917 278/3 402 624 712 5000
SEEN-BY: 278/6000 7000 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 2603/3
PATH: 278/402 6000 3 273/10 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: FREDRIC RICE
Sub: History, historians, and
Date: 06 Dec 93 12:51:00
--------
EID:8A9F F3866660
FR>In Holland, right up to the middle of the 17'th century, Christians were
FR>killing Jews for no other reason than to take their property and to make
se
x
FR>slaves of their children. When Christians were taken to tasks for this
by
t
FR>Pope and such activities were officially frowed upon, Christians stopped
FR>killing Jews. The Jews then started killing eachother. Eventually,
the ne
w
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Provide facts for your fantasy.
* OLX 2.1 TD * cogito ergo . . . get into a lot of arguments
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
* Origin: Holman's World Queens, NY (718) 529-8890 (@FIDONET.ORG) (1:278/402)
SEEN-BY: 13/0 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
SEEN-BY: 112/1 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/0 10 30 60 917 278/3 402 624 712 5000
SEEN-BY: 278/6000 7000 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 2603/3
PATH: 278/402 6000 3 273/10 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: James Conwell
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Some great news items
Date: 8 Dec 93 04:26:43
--------
EID:23f4 1b882340
MSGID: 1:106/7512 e98c6465
REPLY: 1:250/664.0 cfca1620
SE> The Jesus referred to in the christian bible's new testament so
SE> believed and
SE> prophesied that such a day would be within the lifetime of all those
SE> who
SE> were with him at the time that he made the prophecy. He was wrong ...
SE> so are
SE> you.
Jesus said no such thing.
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/7512 993 9788 888 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: James Conwell
To: Zee Cyste
Sub: Divine Conception
Date: 8 Dec 93 04:39:53
--------
EID:a684 1b8824e0
MSGID: 1:106/7512 b005fec0
REPLY: 1:163/166 a80c99ca
ZC> Now, Adam and Eve started this whole mess called the human race,
ZC> right?
ZC>
ZC> So they had two sons. Who'd the surviving son screw?
According to the Bible, Adam and Eve had numerous sons and daughters.
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/7512 993 9788 888 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: James Conwell
To: Napoleon Puhnstein
Sub: Divine Conception
Date: 8 Dec 93 04:41:42
--------
EID:979d 1b882520
MSGID: 1:106/7512 a96da29d
REPLY: 1:163/266.0 2cfe2c14
NP> Could you please explain some of these religious holidays to me?
NP> I know Christmas celebrates the birth of Mary's bastard son. But
NP> Easter?
The Bible doesn't say anything about christmas celebrating the birth of
Mary's
bastard son.
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 106/7512 993 9788 888 116 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: David Rice
Sub: Quotes
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:21:59
--------
EID:ef55 1b887aa0
On (07 Dec 93) David Rice wrote to All...
DR> "If all mankind, minus one, were of one opinion, and only
DR> one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be
DR> no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he
DR> had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
DR> -- John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_ (1859)
Ah, one of those secular traditions that Jesse seems to have missed.
... "You people are a waste of time." - Jesse Jones, 11/26/93
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: James Conwell
Sub: POLITE
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:22:15
--------
EID:1a7d 1b887ac0
On ( 7 Dec 93) James Conwell wrote to Fredric Rice...
JC> Really? "Everyone is born an atheist"? Hmmmmmmmm..........
JC> Then how on earth did theism ever get started then?
JC> If all the original humans were born atheists and noone was around
JC> to indoctrinate them into being theists then how could they become
JC> theists?
If all humans are born without believing the Earth to be flat, then
how could so many people ever have come to believe that? Think about
it a little, James.
... Do I believe in the Qu'ran? Certainly. I've *seen* one!
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Back in the USSR
Date: 04 Dec 93 16:28:20
--------
EID:5a9a 1b848380
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d0100f4
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido a7018f4f
> at punishment)? The point is that we move forward, we
> continue
> to correct our mistakes (you _did_ know that all nations and
> their governments make mistakes right?)
jv> Apparently Jesse Jones does _not_ know that, since he was claiming that
jv> the US is somehow a more moral and good country than
jv> the USSR. Others have suggested that the USSR has not
jv> done anything evil that the US has not also done. She
jv> was bringing up an example of something the US
jv> government did that was comparable to something Stalin
jv> did: pulling people out of their homes and forcibly
jv> relocating them under harsh conditions. In the US,
jv> that was (in this example) what was known as the Trail
jv> of Tears, when the US Army forcibly relocated a tribe
jv> of Amerinds halfway across the continent; many dies on
jv> the way. As for punishment or attempts at punishment,
jv> there were none that I have heard of.
I am talking about recently, like this century. True, we
have committed minor acts of evil, but nothing compares
to some of the things done in both russia and Europe
this century.
jv> Why don't you ask her how far in the past it was that Indian women who
jv> went into government hospitals for any reason at all
jv> were routinely sterilized without their permission or
jv> knowledge? We have democracy, or what passes for it,
jv> but we also have constant abuses of power and a
jv> population that should know better than to allow these
jv> abuses to happen.
The point is not whether or not we have committed wrongs,
but the severity of the wrongs. Stalin, Hitler, etc.
committed much more atrocious acts.
jv> And just what did Stalin do? All I heard was that he was a bad man,
but
jv> considering some of the other utter bullshit I've
jv> heard from the people who told me that, I'd as soon
jv> hear what he did and base a judgment on that.
I am not completely sure as to what specifically he did, but
I know he starved a lot of his people, and killed more than
any one dictator had in the history of the country (including
Ivan the Terrible).
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Back in the USSR
Date: 04 Dec 93 16:36:08
--------
EID:91e2 1b848480
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d0102c8
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2cfc193c
DC> I didn't realize that the United States had punished
DC> those who put the native americans on reservations. I
DC> also didn't realize that a major effort was underway
DC> in the US to give substantial amounts of land BACK to
DC> the native peoples. Details please.
The fact that they put natives on reservations was an attempt
at reconciliation (a better word for what I meant). However,
I think it would be pretty silly to simply "turn over" some land
to the natives, because I doubt you could find any land that
isn't already inhabited (self inflicted conquest is not
usually something that happens).
SV> Just take a quick gander at the rule of Stalin in the Soviet
SV> Union and tell me if you still have any questions.
DC> Then again maybe it's not.
It's still ridiculous, but she asked (or he, can't remember)
what Russia did that was do bad. I didn't say they were
still an evil society as people seem to claim of the Us.
DC> I think you should begin looking at your country
DC> without the star spangled glasses.
I look at it continually without them. I admit that we
have committed atrocities, but the ones in _this century_
were minor compared to that of other countries.
DC> It's fine to be proud of your country. Just don't let
DC> the patriotism cloud your memory and blind your eyes.
DC> Corruption knows no boundaries.
And don't let your hate of the country blind _you_.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Starwyn
Sub: Blood, yum yum!!
Date: 04 Dec 93 16:35:00
--------
EID:831e 1b848460
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d010284
ST>SM>Weeeellll, Starwyn, it's like this. The Masai of central Africa
ST>SM>live on a mixture of blood and milk derived from their cattle.
ST>SM>It has been used for centuries and doesn't seem to harm 'em one
ST>SM>little bit.
ST>They're welcome to it.
ST>SM>Then, there's the way that *I* have had human blood in my
ST>SM>mouth.......no, it didn't require the source to undergo any
ST>SM>wounding, either; in fact, she rather *enjoyed* the
ST>SM>experience..........Didn't bother *me* all that much, either!!
Oh, heave.
Hmm, are you sure it was blood.
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Religons
Date: 04 Dec 93 16:40:02
--------
EID:7a50 1b848500
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d0103b2
RC>On (27 Nov 93) Steve Bedard wrote to Ariadne...
RC> SB> You may be able to get a thousand people to pray the sinners
RC> SB> prayer but how many of them will actually make a change in
RC> SB> their life?
RC>So even you recognize how generally useless such silly religious
RC>mumbo-jumbo is in reality.
Now, just which reality are you speaking of?
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: David Rice
Sub: Satan gets another win!
Date: 04 Dec 93 17:00:04
--------
EID:0c5d 1b848800
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d010864
DR>with: Fredric Rice
DR>FR> G R E E T I N G S C H R I S T I A N
DR>FR> In one week Fredric Rice (myself) will sell his soul to Satan for
DR>FR> a new computer. If anyone would like to try to save him, please
DR>FR> start now.
Say, can anyone tell me what's the going rate for a soul?
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Fundamentalists of all stripes
Date: 04 Dec 93 19:32:38
--------
EID:7f5f 1b849c00
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d012c26
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2cfc209e
DC> The christian god is also given the attributes of free-will and
DC> omniscience. This is simply a contradiction. For
DC> example, he knows he will perform act X at some point
DC> in the future. If he does not perform act X then he
DC> was not omniscient. If he has to perform act X then
DC> he does not have free will.
Well, it depends on your definition of free will I guess.
If he sees billions of possible futures, and at any instant
chooses between each, it's still free well.
It seems like you are assuming time is linear and without
choices. However, like the Kwisatz Haderach in "Dune," an
omniscient being would have to be able to see _all_ possible
futures. Knowing the future can change it...
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Quentin Fai
Sub: Back to school with Al
Date: 04 Dec 93 19:35:24
--------
EID:1cd1 1b849c60
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d012ccc
REPLY: 1:358/1 a88eec52
QF> I have seen Daisy. She can be pink and invisible. She
QF> is a pink color when
QF> she chooses to become visible. She, however, only becomes visible when
QF> believers in her are near because she wants people to take the fact
that
QF> she exists solely on blind faith. I believe, and she has shown herself
to
QF> me.
Ah, I see. Let me guess, it's been nearly 2000 years since you
(or anyone else) has seen Daisy in her pink state, but you
expect us to believe her existance because of tradition
and word of mouth?
Tell me if I'm getting warm yet. :)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: David Rice
Sub: SHRED OF EVIDENCE
Date: 04 Dec 93 19:38:40
--------
EID:4a97 1b849cc0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d012d90
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2cfe7d32
DR> He also believes the TV show "X-Files" is factual and accurate.
DR> I have not seen this show, but I'm told it is a "UFO abduction"
DR> type weekly thriller.
Well, I've watched it several times and think it is the best
horror tv flick for quite some time. It's not really a "UFO
abduction" so much as a Friday the 13th type of TV show...
As long as you don't accept any of it as truth, it can be quite
thrilling. Good break from all that scary stuff on TV (News,
Rush, etc.)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Mormons _just_ kill for God.
Date: 05 Dec 93 11:51:38
--------
EID:8614 1b855e60
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d02119a
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido a79625ce
jv> Bullshit. You can talk about it all you want. The SS may start
jv> watching you, tapping your phone, following you
jv> around, etc. but there's nothing you can be charged
jv> for unless you conspire with others to do it, or take
jv> steps to do it yourself.
I'll check into the law, but I remember hearing something
when studying government about if you say "I'm going to
kill the Pres" you can be detained.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Ariadne
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 05 Dec 93 11:52:44
--------
EID:a9c3 1b855e80
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d0211dc
REPLY: 1:153/826 529d026e
A> Thank you. I'm glad someone else agrees with me.
A> Battery farms are not respectful, healthful, or full
A> of anything else, other than shit and horror.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Just because others are slaughtering animals does not mean
you should have the right to do the same for personal "energy highs"
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Ariadne
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 05 Dec 93 11:55:28
--------
EID:eed2 1b855ee0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d021280
REPLY: 1:153/826 529cc210
A> In YOUR religion, maybe! Heck, I wouldn't tie myself
A> down to one person ever... That's not the type of
A> promise I'd make. Marriage can be a wonderful thing
A> for three or even more.
I dunno. From a moral standpoint, I guess I would not object
to others doing this (I doubt that I would do it). However,
since there are so many things the government/economy does
that changes the way married people live, I would have to
say that having a 4-person marriage is pretty much out of the
question.
What happens if someone wants a divorce??
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Don Martin
Sub: Christian Support Cup
Date: 05 Dec 93 17:13:00
--------
EID:cd0f 1b8589a0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d025cec
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2cff45bd
DM> You are quite welcome to figure as you wish, but when people
DM> make their virgin post here to offer suggestions as
DM> to where I ought to direct my apologies, I rarely
DM> find myself in agreement with the notion that
DM> "there's no need to be rude." I simply blast the
DM> whiney little gnats. So far as I am concerned.
DM> politeness does NOT include directions for behavior
DM> modification on the first encounter. Apparently,
DM> you imagine that such a greeting is appropriate, as
DM> you trumpet "politeness" while offering suggestions
DM> for my betterment. About your only saving grace is
DM> the use of the inclusive "we" instead of the finger-
DM> pointing "you".
Ow. Point taken.
However, what would you consider politeness to be? Don't you think its
a little hard to have an intelligent conversation, one that is open to thought
ful consideration and debate, when we are all telling each other that they
ar
e worthless and have no useful input. There is a difference between arguing
a
nd bickering. I didn't think of actually bettering an individuals behavior
as
much as I was hoping to have an intelligent conversation without all the
name
calling. I do, however, regret making the "asshole" comment.
Incidently, this was not my first post to this forum, and even if it were
, would that make it somehow a less valid point. It may be wrong from a
phili
sophical standpoint, but I doubt if it would make a difference if this was
my
first or one-hundredth posting.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Ariadne
Sub: Miscellaneous
Date: 05 Dec 93 19:38:00
--------
EID:95f3 1b859cc0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d027ee8
AR>HP >of the nine
AR>HP >orifices of the body as part of the preliminaries. I
AR>Funny, I count things a tad differently... there are 12 orifices on a
man,
13
AR>on a woman...
AR>Ally
AR>---
AR> * Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826
)
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Ariadne
Sub: Miscellaneous
Date: 05 Dec 93 19:41:02
--------
EID:95f3 1b859d20
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d027f9e
AR>Funny, I count things a tad differently... there are 12 orifices on a
man,
1
AR>on a woman...
Would you please list these for me, cause I can only find 9
possible orifices, orificeses, orificii... whatever.
By the way, you may or may not have recieved a partial reply
from me. Sorry, I'm still getting used to my mail reader.
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 05 Dec 93 19:52:04
--------
EID:63cc 1b859e80
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d028234
AR>I dunno... for me, it seems much more plausible and less
AR>silly that there's something bigger than us out there,
AR>"running the game" in some form (although
AR>I dont' believe in it being like the Christian God, all concerned...
I
AR>believe it pays attention to us when we pay attention to
AR>it). I mean, scientists tell me that it's more plausible
AR>that two particles "just happened" to crash together,
AR>starting the creation of life on our planet .
AR>I tend to believe that that "something" nudged the
AR>particles...
But then your still left with the problem of where the higher
power came from.
Even so, I found one of your points to be very interesting; that
if a higher power exist, that it only pays attention to us when
we are paying attention to it. This does not necessarily
require sentience on the part of the power. Couldn't it be
possible that there is power out there that is only accessible
through our belief in that power, or possibly subconciously.
I don't know, I just thought it was an interesting thought.
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: True colors
Date: 05 Dec 93 20:09:06
--------
EID:3c5d 1b85a120
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d028632
TAW> The problem with moral relativism is that ultimately
TAW>nothing is wrong/right, and it would seem that actions
Give the (wo)man (I'm sorry, I can't tell from the name) a
cigar. You are correct, nothing is inherently good or bad,
but rather our perceptions of an object or event cause us to
associate them with goodness or badness. As to wether or not
this is a problem, I cannot say.
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: Lying for god again
Date: 05 Dec 93 20:13:08
--------
EID:d591 1b85a1a0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d028724
KB> How does one cook suicide?
By eating his own food?
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jay Noyes
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Evolution....a keeper
Date: 05 Dec 93 20:19:10
--------
EID:4b41 1b85a260
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d02888e
MG>species. Furthermore, if evolution were true, evolution would be
MG>natural. There weren't chemist and biologists around 3000 million years
MG>ago to direct it.
Do what? Evolution goes on whether the chemists or biologists
exist or not, it's just that that like to play with it
occasionally.
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Ph'nglui mgglw'nafh Cthulhu R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Ariadne
Sub: Assurance
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:24:16
--------
EID:2392 1b863300
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d031660
REPLY: 1:153/826 529cc85a
SV > Yet she said that she has no problem with animal SV >sacrifices.
A> Did I? I mentioned I found it personally abhorent. I
A> said that I *understood* it, on a magickal level.
A> Please don't put words in my mouth, thankyewverymuch.
What is the difference betweeen understanding why others do it and
not having a problem with it?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Kitty-Kat
Sub: Scope of Echo
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:54:44
--------
EID:cc05 1b86aec0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d03f074
REPLY: 1:243/30.0 2cfd50a0
K> Celtic mythology. I'm also looking for people who'd like to
K> discuss Catholicism with an open mind and in a charitable spirit?
I can probably tell you a lot about Beowulf, but that's not exacly a
Celtic Myth...
I'd be happy to discuss any denomination of Christianity. I'll start:
1) Why do you follow this faith? What I mean by this is, what was your
original driving force? I will bet 10 to 1 it was a family member
(most likely your parents) who made you go to Catholic School / Church
2) Given that the idea behind punishment is to prevent further use of
the undesired behavior, what is the purpose of _eternal_ punishment?
Does this not defeat the entire purpose of it? Would not a more
appropriate term be "Torture?"
3) What is the purpose of confession in front of a priest? Why do
Catholics feel it must be done in front of others and not simply
in the face of God?
4) What are your views on Birth Control and/or Abortion with respect
to religion?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stephen Vakil
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Church of XYZ
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:05:08
--------
EID:b211 1b86b0a0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d03f2e4
REPLY: 1:350/401 85FE2D96
DC> There will be no dues, no groveling (well, just a little,
DC> just for old times sake) and no bible babble.
Without Bible Babble, there is no way to misinterpet
things and declare war on "heathens."
DC> The only agenda that this Church will have will be to
DC> make itself the only allowable church in this country.
DC> Its main and only tenent is that all other religiouns
DC> are abhorent to it it, and, as such, violates the
DC> Freedom of Religion Act. The worship of any other
DC> religion within the confines of this church are
DC> permitted, following the above guidelines on dispersal
DC> of any funds or property.
A little while ago, in order to make a point about Religion,
A friend of mine and I decided we would make up the religion
called Sahi .. (An acronym for "Society for the Advancement
of Half-Indians). Many of the tenants were the same.
DC> As soon as we can organize a quorum, we will have a
DC> vote for our god. As Odin lost by only one vote the
DC> last time, I'd like to personally nominate him as
DC> our next god-head. To be fair to all, he has agreed
DC> to limit his term to one four-year term, and expects
DC> future god-heads to do the same. Thor has agreed to
DC> enforce this proviso.
In Sahi, we had decided that all Half-Indians would be
named deities, and all non-half-indians would be forced
worship us. We would command a human to write our word
down in a vague book that had little meaning, thus confusing
the worshippers enough for us to deceive them.
Next, of course, we would come up with a lame arch-enemy
in order to explain "how we could let this happen!" to all
the ignorant worshippers.
......
.....
....
...
Then we decided it was too much like x-tian religions and
discarded the idea.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Armageddon Unleashed (1:11/156)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 11/156 159 2410/116 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Backwards Masking
Date: 05 Dec 93 22:08:44
--------
EID:eb05 1b85b100
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 d02a2a10
Quoth Steve Quarrella to Simon Ewins thusly:
SB> Do you deny that some rock groups have used Satan as a gimmick?
SE> What else is he (it)?
SE> Do you deny that christians have used Satan as a gimmick?
SQ> Hey, I like that...gonna enjoy watching this fold unthread.
SQ> You're right, of course. :)
I would like it to 'unthread' ...
Alas Mr. Bedard has taken to ignoring me lately.
--- timEd/B8
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A : 416-422-5723 : Toronto, Canada (eh) : (1:250/664)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 250/664 601 99 636 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stewart Harris
To: MARTY LEIPZIG
Sub: Don't be a moron, Al
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:00:24
--------
EID:09a6 1b87a000
{Area: (1122) HolySmoke} [Subj: Don't be a moron, Al
>>>Marty Leipzig opined the following wisdom to Stewart Harris:
>Stewart Harris, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to MARTY
LEI
>
> SH> {Area: (1122) HolySmoke} [Subj: Don't be a moron, Al
>
> > > SH> I made an offer to Martin Goldberg, but you're arrogant enough
to
> > > SH> on the fun! Someone on this echo said you were a tiger toward
an
> > > SH> who believed in God. If I prove there is a God, will you shut
up
> > >
> > > We all will, big mouth. Have at it.
> > SH> .................................
> >
> > SH> If you have become the spokesman for "all," you really don't have
m
> > SH> to say, do you?
> > Herr Martin speaks volumes more than all those with the "One
> > True Answer".
> >
> > Or those who believe they have the "One, True Answer".
> SH> ................................. My contribution:
>
> SH> I don't know if you intend to be obtuse, oblique or subtle, but you
>
> You forgot tangential, sarcastic and cynical, as well.
>
> SH> have succeeded. Since all think I am an idiot, you haven't
> SH> accomplished much!
>
> I can only work with what you provide. Can't bulid a silk purse
> out of sow's ear, you know.
>
>
>... Don't try to out-weird me.I get stranger things than you in my cereal.
>--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
> * Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
................................. My contribution:
Excellent point. I also can't send any edifying information which has a
physical content and structure over the telephone wires or modem
connection. The offer still stands, if you are interested in seeing the
lies you claim I am promulgating. My phone number is (702) 792-9326.
Quite a few others have succeeded in figuring out that all they have to
do is tell me where to send the stuff needed to get people off my back.
If you want it, say where; otherwise, quit posting that it is me who is
keeping you from getting the 'proof' you require.
.May Marty Leipzig see the light of many days -- and better nights!!
--- FreeMail 1.09
* Origin: Vegas PlayGround! * Las Vegas, NV * 702-386-7979 * (1:209/276)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 209/276 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Stewart Harris
To: HECTOR PLASMIC
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:01:02
--------
EID:651a 1b87a020
{Area: (1122) HolySmoke} [Subj: Aids Kills
>>>Steve Bedard opined the following wisdom to Hector Plasmic:
>HP> SB>However, if people followed the NT teaching of sex only within
>HP> SB>marriage, it would be alot more difficult to get it.
>
>HP>And if wishes were horses then beggars would ride.
>
>HP>People _won't_ engage in sex only within marriage because sex feels
>HP>good
>HP>whether it's within marriage or not. You could solve all the world's
>HP>social and economic ills if people would follow the teachings of
>HP>Marx,
>HP>but they won't because people are greedy.
>
>HP>History shows us that rules contradictory to human nature will be
>HP>ignored. Don't you agree?
>
>They will always be ignored by some but there will be some who will see
>the logic in the rule and make the sacrifice. I completely agree with
you
>(I can't believe I am saying this) that what I am suggesting will never
>happen.
>
>
>--- GEcho 100+ / DX Gate
> * Origin: DX'ers Gateway SuperBBS (416) 227-7344 14.4K BPS (1:247/126)
................................. My contribution:
Thank you, Mr. Plasmic. An affirmation of my own lifestyle. I have
been married to the same woman for 50 years and, what with illness and
such, have ended up with very little, because I was not greedy. Inever
cheated on her nor she on me. I am an accidental socialist. Gosh, we
don't have anyone but the Clintons, now! Mssr. et Mme. les Presidents!
Bonne chance!
.May Hector Plasmic see the light of many days -- and better nights!!
--- FreeMail 1.09
* Origin: Vegas PlayGround! * Las Vegas, NV * 702-386-7979 * (1:209/276)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 209/276 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 02 Dec 93 19:35:00
--------
EID:763a 1b829c60
Quoting Steve Bedard to Jeff Jones talking about :
-{ Aids Kills }-
On 11-27-93 17:47
JJ>I would say that it would spread uncontrollably--based on how even
JJ>the
JJ>self-appointed leaders of the religion tend to follow its
JJ>teachings...
SB> That is not what I asked. What would happen to the AIDS epidemic if
SB> people followed the NT teaching of sex only within marriage?
Hey, why not go to what the OLD Testament has to say about sex? One part
of your book is just as good as the other isn't it?
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... Only God is to be called 'father' - Matt 23:9 Various people can be
... called 'father' - 1 Cor 10:1, Eph 6:1-4, 1 John 2:13-14, Matt 15:4
... - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bigot?
Date: 02 Dec 93 19:51:00
--------
EID:9436 1b829e60
Quoting Steve Bedard to Sean McCullough talking about :
-{ Bigot? }-
On 11-28-93 21:36
SB> Am I in favour of homosexuals being allowed to teach?
SB> That is a difficult question. First of all, I do not consider
SB> homosexuality a normal lifestyle.
Just what IS 'normal'? Normal as in commonly accepted, usual? What is
'normal' is subject to being defined differently by the one doing the
defining. Assuming that you are right handed, it would not be 'normal' for
you to write with your left hand but it is very normal for those with the
left handed trait. What is 'abnormal'? The same premise applies for both
words. In the case of homosexuals (or anyone denounced by the mainstream)
that the word 'abnormal' should be replaced with 'unusual'. Being
'unusual' does not make you wrong any more than being 'usual' makes you
right.
As far as christian faith goes, I define it as usual and usually abnormal.
SB> On the other hand if the homosexual does not allow his or her lifestyle
SB> to affect how and what they teach, then they are doing no harm. I can
SB> understand the arguments on both sides. I guess I would go with the
SB> U.S. military's solution of don't ask and don't tell.
On the other hand, if the christian does not allow his or her lifestyle
affect how and what they teach(or allow to be taught) then they are doing
no harm.
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... Centurion goes to Jesus for his servant to be healed - Matt 8:5-13
... Centurion sends elders to Jesus to ask for his servant to be
... healed - Luke 7:1-10
... - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: Re: Duck and cover.
Date: 02 Dec 93 20:20:00
--------
EID:f5d4 1b82a280
Quoting Amy Anderson-Coffin to John Musselwhite talking about :
-{ Re: Duck and cover. }-
On 11-27-93 18:16
AA> KENOSHA????? I grew up thirty miles from Kenosha. Kenosha is very
AA> close to being the armpit of the earth. You CAN'T be serious!
Hey I live in Chattanooga Tn, thirty miles from where the Scopes/monkey
trial took place. This place *IS* the asshole of the universe!
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... Man judged/saved by faith - John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 20:31, Acts
... 2:21, 16:30,31, Rom 1:17, 5:1,9,11,18, 10:9, Gal 2:16, Phil 3:9,
... Eph 2:8,9 Man judged/saved by works and lifestyle - Psalm 62:12,
... Proverbs 24:12, Matthew 7:21, 16:27, 19:16,17, 25:31- 46, Luke
... 14;13-14, John 5:29, Acts 10:35, Rom 2:6,7,9,10, 1 Cor 3:8
... - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: JW's going away
Date: 04 Dec 93 18:55:00
--------
EID:ecc5 1b8496e0
Quoting Steve Quarrella to Tim Bennett talking about :
-{ JW's going away }-
On 11-30-93 13:29
SQ> My mother is a devout Presbyterian, but she has never ONCE
SQ> proselytized me. She has chosen her personal philosophy, and certainly
SQ> understands that I have my own. In your case, though, hell, I would
SQ> have DISOWNED my mother (and she hates the f-word too. :).
If you get my mom REALLY mad she will use the f-word.... then say, oh shit
I didn't mean to say that dammit.
TB> I called her later that day and told her that she is welcome
TB> any time that she wants to visit as my mom but if she ever
TB> comes back as a religinoid I would do the very same thing and
TB> not be quite so nice about it.
SQ> And the response?
She had selective amnesia about the whole thing. 'But you really
shouldn't talk to your mother like that.'
TB> -- BWQuote v1.0
SQ>
SQ> BW Quote?
I liked Fredric's idea so much that I wrote my own. It opens your Blue
Wave upload packet and adds quotes to the messages. You can have up to 20
different tagline files, 20 different upload packets (different BBS's).
You can use up to 20 different tagline files for each upload packet. I use
one for HOLYSMOKE and a different one for A_THEIST and then a general type
for all other areas that I message in. It will not append a quote to a
message that already has one so you can keep adding to the packet if you
forget to upload it. As soon as I finish a revision to keep track of
whether a tagline file is for multiline quotes or for single line tags I
will send a copy your way if you want it. Who knows, I might even let YOU
write the docs :)
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... Prepare your defence if challenged for your faith - 1 Pet 3:15
... Don't bother beforehand about what is to be said if challenged
... for your faith - Mark 13:11
... - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 04 Dec 93 20:33:00
--------
EID:6670 1b84a420
Quoting Dan Sereduick to Robert Curry talking about :
-{ Virgin Birth }-
On 11-30-93 08:16
DS> -----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> This is echomail, and every message is for the public, no matter who
> it is addressed to the particular attention of.
DS> -!---[ My Reply: ]-----
DS> That's not what I meant (does everyone have to be so damn literal?),
I
In an echo peopled mostly by atheists of one strain or another, yes we DO
have to be so damn literal.
DS> fronts. My point was, he jumped in, out of nowhere, with no basis nor
DS> facts, and made judgements on her credibility.
Regardless of what your (or her) 'belief' is, here if you make a statement
you must be prepared to back it up with evidence. Extraordinary events /
claims require extraordinary evidence.
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... I am capable of being selfish. Indeed, if there were no God, I
... would _have_ to be selfish, I believe, because there would be no
... one else watching out for me, and no reason to put anyone or
... anything ahead of me. - Jesse C. Jones
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Thanksgiving greetings
Date: 01 Dec 93 21:08:00
--------
EID:3951 1b81a900
Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jesse C. Jones talking about :
-{ Thanksgiving greetings }-
On 11-26-93 23:32
MB> On (25 Nov 93) Jesse C. Jones wrote to All...
JC> You secularists (thank who for what?) are missing the joy of
JC> thankfulness. of gratefulness, of grace itself. I hope each of
JC> you at least enjoyed your turkey.
MB> Jesse, I had this same argument with a fundy on a local newsgroup.
MB> He asserted that we atheists couldn't truly celebrate Thanksgiving,
MB> because we had nobody to whom to be thankful. His terminology was a
MB> bit different form yours, in that it specifically told us that we
MB> couldn't be thankful.
I heard on 'Paul Harvey News & Comments' a couple days before Thanksgiving
that the day is the only officially sanctioned by the U.S. gov't religious
day. Seems there was some lady that for 40 years was writing letters to
the president and writing scathing editorials in her magazine/newspaper
to
the effect that prayer should be forced upon everyone by law. Well Lincoln
finally relented and gave her one national day of thanksgiving.
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... Elijah and Moses appear many centuries after they died - Mark 9:2-4
... Only God is immortal - 1 Tim 6:15-16
... - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: baptism
Date: 01 Dec 93 22:54:00
--------
EID:84b0 1b81b6c0
Quoting Fredric Rice to Ariadne talking about :
-{ baptism }-
On 11-23-93 13:54
FR> The practice of infant baptism started in the year 1024 (an easy
FR> number for programmers to remember.) It was so that the State could
FR> claim the property of the infant if the infants parents died. All
in
FR> all a disgusting reason to invoke ritual upon innocent children -- as
FR> it makes a good excuse to murder that child after being baptized.
FR> known. The Los Angeles Skeptics Society did a length magazine on
FR> "Skeptics, scientists and other heretics" where the origins of these
FR> barbaric rituals came from.
Where can one get further info about these and related publishings?
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15 The Temple pillars
... were 35 cubits - 2 Chron 3:15
... - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Rocco Lamuro
Sub: Food for thought
Date: 01 Dec 93 23:22:00
--------
EID:fd2c 1b81bac0
Quoting Rocco Lamuro to MARILYN BURGE talking about :
-{ Food for thought }-
On 11-25-93 09:21
MB> It is much, much more than "just a dip in the old pool." It is lying
RL> It just seems that atheism, in denying the existence of any higher
RL> power, should fear nothing from such primitive rituals.
A couple of points here. In being an atheist, I do not 'deny' the
existence of a higher power. That implies that there IS a higher power,
yet I simply deny the fact. Quite simply, there is NO higher power to
deny.
As to the 'primitive ritual' suppose there was a religion that had a
ritual of burning the hair off the heads of their followers. Would you
want that done to your child without your knowledge and consent? Whether
it is meaningless, or dangerous has no bearing. It implies to the kids
that it is right and correct to do some things without your parents
knowledge and consent, it from an outside authoritative figure that the
religious practices are proper(regardless of what the parents have been
trying to teach the kids about religion), it shows the arrogance of
christianity as a whole to think that our constitution allows them to
force their poison on to impressionable children and then scream CULT
about everything that is not THEIR brand of brainwashing.
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... The Gospel not to be taken to the Samaritans - Matt 10:5-6 The
... Gospel taken to the Samaritans - John 4:4-41, Acts 8:5,14,15,25
... - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Foolishness
Date: 01 Dec 93 23:37:00
--------
EID:2b9d 1b81bca0
Quoting Jesse C. Jones to Curry talking about :
-{ Foolishness }-
On 11-26-93 14:53
-=> Quoting Curry to Jesse C. Jones <=-
Cu> Let's go on to evidence instead of proof. Can you answer a question
Cu> about whether or not you have some evidence? If not, why not?
JCJ> "Like a dog that returns to its vomit is a fool who reverts to his
JCJ> folly." -- Prov 26:11 (NRSV)
I have remained rather quiet in here, just sort of reading along but I
have seen this question posited to you on MANY occasions in one form or
another. Not ONCE have you ever actually replied to the question directly.
Is it so hard to say "no"? Hell, a hurt pride is nothing. Then maybe, just
maybe you could go on to something more productive.
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... The dead are unconscious - Job 14:12, Ecc 9:5, Dan 12:2 The dead
... are conscious - Mark 9:4, Luke 16:22-23, Rev 6:9-10
... - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Tim Bennett
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Waste of Time
Date: 02 Dec 93 00:02:00
--------
EID:07eb 1b820040
Quoting Jesse C. Jones to All Heathens talking about :
-{ Waste of Time }-
On 11-26-93 21:11
JCJ> You people are a waste of time.
JCJ> The hateful personal attacks on anyone who professes religious
JCJ> faith, the smug condescension in your idiotic attribution of your
While I do not usually attack people and/or their beliefs, I do feel that
those beliefs are a personality flaw. Just as you might believe that a
person is deluded to BELIEVE that they have an invisible pink hippo in
their back yard, and worse yet to WORSHIP said hippo.
JCJ> atheism to superior intelligence, your devotion of countless hours
JCJ> participating in this conference to tear down people and their ideas
JCJ> and faith rather than to build, your lynch mob mentality fearfully
JCJ> blocking any attempts at dialogue, are all evil. There is no lesser
I personally am 'building' toward a better, less superstitious, more
ethical world for myself and my children. You on the other hand are
seeking to wrap the chains of religious slavery around everyone around you
and are reaching out a long are through this electronic media to further
your cause. We are not given many arenas to further our cause, and we do
not invade your churches as you and your kind invade here. Not that we
don't enjoy the exchange and entertainment however.
JCJ> It pains my heart to see this blasphemy and hatefulness spread
JCJ> across the world on this electronic medium. I have tried to counter
There is no such thing as blasphemy. We are not generally hateful, we just
don't want you to force your 'faith' onto us and ours any more than you
would want us to force ours onto you and yours. Imagine how you would feel
if one of us was to corner one of your children and 'force feed' our
belief through threats of eternal damnation if they don't reject what they
currently believe. We try to educate with factual information. Yes we do
debunk your biblical stories because they ARE debunk able.
JCJ> Perhaps I shall grant you your fondest wish, and leave.
It is not our wish that you leave. But as the old saying goes... if you
have an intolerance for heat, perhaps the kitchen in not the best
environment for you. Imagine if one of us came into your church and
started in with your preacher. Regardless of how strong our belief, or how
well prepared we were, the 'heat' would be tremendous.
JCJ> The word of God!
I still haven't heard it. Does he speak inside your head or outside?
___ BWQuote v1.01 Reg. 0001 - Tim Bennett
... Respect for parents taught - Exodus 20:12, Leviticus 19:3,
... Deuteronomy 5:16, Ephesians 6:1-2 Disrespect and rejection of
... parents taught - Matt 8:21- 22, 10:37, 19:29, 23:9, Luke
... 12:51,53, 14:26 - Bible Errancy
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.10
* Origin: What a friend we have in cheeses (1:362/466.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/466 714 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Brian Ettkin
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: Flood Puzzles!
Date: 03 Dec 93 19:41:00
--------
EID:31a0 1b839d20
MSGID: 1:362/628 86002A52
-=> Quoting Shelby Sherman to All <=-
SS> Also, if you (or ANYBODY!) can dig up an article called "The Effect
of
SS> Intelligence on Religious Faith," from _Free Inquiry_ volume 6, number
SS> 2, published in 1986... PLEASE let me know. I can't find it anywhere.
I have a close friend who subscribes to _Free Inquiry_. I'll see if
his library goes back that far (he's like the National Archives. He
throws nothing away).
... A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/93-1020
* Origin: Dominator BBS! *Cleveland TN* (615)/476-2414 (1:362/628)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 362/628 962 1 201 3615/50 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Cult
Date: 03 Dec 93 18:23:00
--------
EID:28f2 1b8392e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022A9C
-> Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Cult
FR> skeptic? Something with Diet Coke as a sacrament would be nice but not
FR> required. (I am _NOT_ addicted!)
Maybe we can work it into the Church of XYZ, as an optional
ceremony. We could have vending machines that sold
it all over the place. In fact, we could tell everyone
that the proceedes of all soda machines go to fund the
Church!
> ... INDIFFERENCE ERROR!Press any key-or don't..see if I care!
Ok, it's next Tuesday now.... I really should hit that
key, as the monitor's getting a burn spot in it!
... Thou Shalt not bear false witness...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: EVOLUTION & INTELLIGENCE!
Date: 03 Dec 93 18:32:00
--------
EID:7307 1b839400
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022A9D
-> Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: EVOLUTION & INTELLIGENCE!
BW> evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great
BW> Designer."
dc> Quote again taken out of context, by Billie Bile Wolff
FR> Look at the wording that Bil-lie uses. It's straight from an ICR
FR> publication. Bil-lie doesn't _have_ the original.
It's simply amazing. He claims that he didn't do it. Then
claims that it was a misunderstanding. Then he does it
again. I guess he thinks everyone else's retention of
previous postings is non-existant. Even dumber, he doesn't
realize that many have archives of the particular message.
Oh, well, he was fun while he at least sounded like he
migh be intelligent.
... +Origin: MARIONETTE NETWORK: PUPPETS OF JESUS!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: evolution/faith
Date: 03 Dec 93 18:38:00
--------
EID:2bbe 1b8394c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022A9E
-> Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: evolution/faith
FR> _pray_ that he never mentions the xxxxxxxx Man!
dc> Fredric, you know that that has been a forbidden topic
FR> Woops! Have I blundered-away the noose again? I really need to read
FR> GET_RON before I look through this forum.
You really should. After all, it took a lot of hard
work to set up private GET_RON echo. We had to pull
a lot of strings to get arond the general open reading
policy of Fido. Then again, it had to come out
sometime sooner or later. After all, even Steve Bedard's
involved in that echo.
FR> ~*~ "Ich bin ein Berliner" -- "I am a jelly doughnut." -- JFK
I don't know what it is about that silly tagline, but i
find it extremely funny!
... Fundamentalists can legally park in handicapped zones.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: HALLOWEEN....
Date: 03 Dec 93 18:53:00
--------
EID:3506 1b8396a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022A9F
-> Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: HALLOWEEN....
dc> Take three bean burittos, if you can get them over there,
FR> Sadly the Dutch don't know what Mexican or Spanish foods are.
FR> Do you know that one can not find a single flour or corn tortilla
And they say Europe's civilized. The barbarians! I bet they
don't even have a good Chinese restaurant. I'd lobby to
pull out of NATO, but we do have to insure the continued
supply of good beer, though.
FR> And speaking of Ronald... What's the most annoying thing about
It's time like this that I'd like to say I'm sorry for
the poor guy..... I'd like to, but I won't! Hope he
doesn't move to Wyoming.
... Faith means not having to think about it for yourself
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Winter
Sub: Need for Hell and Aids
Date: 03 Dec 93 19:08:00
--------
EID:4798 1b839900
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022AA0
-> Steve Winter got back to Star Goat Re: Need for Hell and Aids
SW> This load of filth had BETTER NOT appear in any of my echos.
SW> Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
Well, then, what load of filth would you prefer?
Thanks for your cooperation.
... Fundies are a pain in the butt, as second birth was anal.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Strickland
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 03 Dec 93 19:32:00
--------
EID:5793 1b839c00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022AA1
-> David Strickland got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Re: Virgin Birth
DS> ... What's all this fuss about endangered feces?
DC> Do like that one!
DS> Glad you did, thats the second response in the affirmative I have
DS> gotten for the tagline (outta two times).
That one's going for the all-time hit list! I got
stolen for sure in Canada. I used it here locally, I
think, but haven't got any comments back on it yet...
... "It's Ensign Hoover, Jim - He's Fed."
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Virgin Births
Date: 03 Dec 93 19:35:00
--------
EID:4666 1b839c60
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022AA2
-> Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Virgin Births
dc> is the cause of this? And I thought the Great Goat had
dc> better morals....
FR> Star Goat has _always_ asked first and performed _soundly_. Unlike
FR> another deity-wanna-be who had to rape an unsuspecting and unwilling
FR> female.
I caught a bit of that in another message... I was
under the impression that she was asked to be the mother.
Do you have that particular quote handy?
... Is Critical Mass Christmas or Easter?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Christian Soldier
Date: 04 Dec 93 07:06:00
--------
EID:0a2f 1b8438c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022AA3
-> Shelby Sherman got back to All Re: Christian Soldier
For X-tian, PLO (permanent latrine orderly)
SS> Your god did plenty of killing though, didn't he David?
CS> If God is God ... then, by definition all that he does is
CS> correct. He standards are not OURS.
CS> And, besides, there is a significant difference between MURDER
CS> and KILLING.
This is good, _real_ good, X-tian Idiot. Your saying
that if someone attempts to kill you, that's acceptable
with your all-loving murderous god. Any good lawyer
should be able to get anyone off of a murder charge by
saying that the perpetrator wasn't intent on murder, but
simply wished to kill the S.O.B.
No wonder that x-tianity is putting this world back into
the dark ages. It seems that it never left it.
... C:\BWAVE\FUndy.TXT
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Rice
Sub: did you hear the latest?
Date: 04 Dec 93 07:13:00
--------
EID:bee0 1b8439a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022AA4
-> David Rice got back to Christopher Baker Re: did you hear the latest?
DR> Smirfs and Cabbage Patch dolls were also deemed "Satanic." I recall
DR> hearing stories of levitating Cabbage Patch dolls, while I was being
DR> forced to attend cult meetings.
Blatantly not true. After all, it goes agains the slaw.
... As you follow life's highway, you're guided by a yellow streak.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Freddie's nightmare
Date: 04 Dec 93 07:19:00
--------
EID:75ba 1b843a60
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022AA5
-> Jesse C. Jones got back to Fredric Rice Re: Freddie's nightmare
JCJ> Sorry, Fred. The Lord is telling me to stay awhile. I guess She
JCJ> has a better sense of humor than I do!
Hey, I was told that Goat Star was male! Do you know
something we don't?????? Or, where you referring
to Daisy?
... He's got a mind like a steel trap...rusted and frozen shut.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Rice
Sub: NO COMMON SENSE
Date: 04 Dec 93 11:54:00
--------
EID:f30e 1b845ec0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86022AA6
-> David Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: NO COMMON SENSE
DC> Take out the pictures, sidebars of other scientists, factor in
DR> My impression was that the book was written for children. It was
I think that's a good assumption.
DR> than baseless assertions and arguments based upon authority.
Works well, when dealing with little kids that haven't got
the background to verse opposition, or question properly.
DR> I doubt is Wolff read it. He got his out-of-context quote from some
DR> religious tract.
That seems to go without saying. Every time he has been pressed
on the meaning and context of a quote, he talks like a clam.
... +Origin: MERGANSER NETWORK: QUACKING FOR JEEEEZUS!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: Christian Support Cup
Date: 04 Dec 93 17:54:00
--------
EID:8e6b 1b848ec0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A77
-> Kelsey Bjarnason got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Christian Support Cup
DC> > SQ> clearly says "Don't eat from that tree, or you'll be smart. I
don'
t
DC> DC> BTW, there a was another tree there that god feared more...
DC> DM> Eden WAS something of an arboreal mine field, wasn't it? If A &
DC>Funny, isn't it, that none of the bible worshipers came
KB> What, you mean "tree" as in "Oh, yes! To the root!", or is there
KB> yet another one involved? :]
Actually, there was another tree mentioned. It was the
tree of everlasting life. God feared man would eat of it
and "become like god himself". It was to prevent Adam and
Eve from becoming immortal that they were banished from
the Garden of Eden. After all, they know had knowledge of
self, and could strive to be as gods, simply by eating
the other forbidden fruit.
Nice of god to be so mean to his playtoys in making
them suffer on earth, just to avoid the competion. I think
he shows up on earth every so often, and has fun playing the
card shark who cheats you out of all your money.
... Adam and Eve: The original Barbie and Ken dolls
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: New Creationists Books
Date: 04 Dec 93 18:27:00
--------
EID:1774 1b849360
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A78
-> Fredric Rice got back to Aaron Boyden Re: New Creationists Books
>> fact, observations made by Druids at Stonehenge show that the
>> speed of light was much lower then, as was the value of most of
ab> almost equally relevant here; I know that it is logically impossible
ab> that the speed of light should change.
FR> Even were it changing ever so slowly, _any_ change in the velocity of
FR> light in a vaccume would "infect" literally everything else. From the
FR> charge on the electron to Max Planck's (sp) constant. Everything would
FR> have gone "fitz" after the first -- what? -- two times ten to the minus
FR> 41 seconds of 'existance?'
Interesting... There was just a news release on Thursday,
stating that if anything was slightly different in the
first trillionth of a second of the big bang, the universe
would not exist. I didn't catch the name of the scientist
or institution that released that info. :(
... Rocks were created in the Big Bang's image.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Daniel Nieport
Sub: Re: New Quote File
Date: 04 Dec 93 18:28:00
--------
EID:4d50 1b849380
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A79
-> Daniel Nieport got back to Hector Plasmic Re: Re: New Quote File
DN> Was that ment to be funny? Or are you really that dumb?
Kinda hard to tell, as you didn't quote anything. Maybe
it's you that is that dumb....
... "We are upping our standards... so up yours." Pat Paulsen
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Stephen Vakil
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 04 Dec 93 19:34:00
--------
EID:704f 1b849c40
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A7A
-> Stephen Vakil got back to Bill Wolff Re: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
SV> etc. all have the mutation. This is especially true if
SV> the mutant is isolated from the non-mutants (i.e.
SV> someone has a mutant baby which wanders off).
Wow! Just like in the movie _It's Alive!_ You remember,
with the killer babies....
... To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Warning! Pun Alert!
Date: 04 Dec 93 19:48:00
--------
EID:6bbf 1b849e00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A7B
-> Fredric Rice got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Warning! Pun Alert!
> are call Cry-Eugengics...
FR> Flee the echo at once!
If I must, so be with it.... But I'll never be back, just
like Ronnie Stringfellow, I'll never be back.....
Ah, hell, as soon as I said that, you knew I was lying! :)
... +Origin: MEATHEAD NETWORK! STRINGING FELLOWS ALONG FOR JEEESUS!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: _New Scientist_ bonanza
Date: 04 Dec 93 19:56:00
--------
EID:b7a7 1b849f00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A7C
-> Kelsey Bjarnason got back to David Rice Re: _New Scientist_ bonanza
DR>1854! (a bit late, in my opinion!) Quoting the Pope:
DR> "The claimed incompatibility between science and faith
DR>belongs in the past."
KB> Egads - a slight return to sanity. Amazing.
Not necessarily.... Look at how the ICR handles their
scientific studies. You may want to rethink that!
... Study immolation: Be a scientific Cremationist!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 05 Dec 93 06:50:00
--------
EID:d1cc 1b853640
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A7D
-> Martin Goldberg got back to Gwen Todd Re: Aids Kills
GT> Catholic sailors and the soldiers who brought the god of
GT> death to the Western Hemisphere...
MG> Actually, int he case of syphilis it was the other way around. This
MG> was a childhood disease in the north american indians and was not
Martin, rather interesting, isn't it. The disease developed
in a population that was separated from another group. It
obviously had different characterists in both groups. In fact,
the disease was unknown to the second group. Yet,
both groups are inter-breedable. Seems like speciation(sp)
was on the verge of happening, until the intermixing of the
European and Indian blood lines.
Do you know if syphilis now affects the American Indian
population the same as it did the early Europeans, or is
it still a childhood malady? Too bad we didn't have the
technology then to study it's progression....
... The day I stopped learning is the day I died....
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Collect call from Ciya; w
Date: 05 Dec 93 07:01:00
--------
EID:4642 1b853820
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A7E
-> Robert Curry got back to Jesse C. Jones Re: Collect call from Ciya; w
RC> responsive to the | call. It is therefore no wonder that God is not
RC> real to you. |
RC> am not responsive to, or do you mean to say that Yahweh is not calling
RC> me?
Robert, it's probably because you have your modem set with
*70, and your call waiting has been disabled. Then again,
if he was really god, he'd be able to respond at 19.6, even
on a 300 b modem. So go figure....
... +Origin: MENDELIAN NETWORK: Cross-pollinating myths for Jesus!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Robert Curry
Sub: How to be a twit
Date: 05 Dec 93 07:12:00
--------
EID:d73e 1b853980
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A7F
-> Robert Curry got back to Stewart Harris Re: How to be a twit
SH> [...] we should keep posters in line with good spelling and grammar,
RC> compulsion to "keep posters in line with good spelling and grammar"
is
RC> If you have anything to say of any substance, why not stick with that?
Bingo! Give that man a no-prize... Alfred will be
bringing that to your door shortly. Don't mistake his
looks for a fundy, though.........
... What? Me Worry? -- Alfred E. Neuman
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Ron Eats Pi
Date: 05 Dec 93 07:34:00
--------
EID:2908 1b853c40
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A80
-> Ron Stringfellow got back to David Rice Re: Ron Eats Pi
DR> or to show that parts of the bible can't be taken utterly
DR> litterally.
RS> There are many areas that we know it is obvious the Bible does not
RS> speak litterally.....just as there is in our everyday languagae.
So, you cannot take the bible literally... So, who
performs the interpretation? Just some guys who have
an agenda to make work. Think about it, Ron. You are
being duped by anyone who says it is their judgment
that is the true meaning. Why do you think that there are
so many differenct sects of x-tianity? Each one has found
a way to get their slice of the pie. All it takes is that
they convince enough people to _BUY_ into their analysis.
... If you understand the bible, how can you believe in it?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 05 Dec 93 07:56:00
--------
EID:0af9 1b853f00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86032A81
-> Jason Rosendale got back to Robert Curry Re: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
JR> #include Stewart Harris
JR> #include Robert Curry
SH> What I am saying is scientists can't duplicate my device. [...]
JR> In SCIENCE, he says that he's built a perpetual motion machine.
I wonder if he realizes that other people read more than
one Echo, too. He doesn't seem to notice that many of
the readers here are also in the Science echo... :)
... Is calling Hillary Clinton a witch an insult to real Wiccans?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: "god's Love"
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:52:00
--------
EID:8351 1b863680
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A88
-> Steve Bedard got back to David Rice Re: "god's Love"
DR>the kingdom of heaven except through him, then this child is
DR>now burning for ever in the flames of eternal torture and damnation.
SB> God only demands judgement for those that were able to make a
SB> decision. If this child was only two, he could not have decided what
And if the child was say, 6 or 8, and believed that Allah
was god, where would that child be? What if it wasn't a
child, but a young teenager? Or maybe a young adult, or
even an older adult who beleived in Allah? To hell with
them? Some kind and forgiving god you have that sentences
starving people to more torture....
... Faith: an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Afterlife
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:59:00
--------
EID:3181 1b863760
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A89
-> Steve Bedard got back to Napoleon Puhnstein Re: Afterlife
NP>Ya come, ya shit, ya leave.
SB> But where do ya go?
The toilet... Or behind that tree in the woods!
... Is this seat saved? No, but we're praying for it.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 06 Dec 93 07:04:00
--------
EID:201f 1b863880
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A8A
-> Steve Bedard got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Aids Kills
DC> RC>Meanwhile, using AIDS as an excuse to preach religion is sick.
DC> SB> I agree that AIDS should not be the basis to preach
DC>Christianity.
DC>the other way and attempt the make it a religious issue
DC>again. Can't make up your mind?
SB> My second comment is that there would be a benefit to following the
NT
SB> teachings on sex even if it was not done for religous reasons.
Ahh, Steve, but there's the rub! You are still using the
bible as the basis for the action. I don't think anyone
is qibbling over the logic behind self-control. What they
object to is the use of the bible as the only means of
control.
I think you will find that the Qu'ran also calls for abstinance.
If the bible did not call for it, but only the Qu'ran did,
would you still beleive that abstinance before marriage was
the only sollution? Be honest, now.....
... Faith means not having to think about it for yourself
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Assurance
Date: 06 Dec 93 07:28:00
--------
EID:6f84 1b863b80
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A8B
-> Steve Bedard got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Assurance
DC> SB> there is no use in discussing this. According to my
DC>definitions,
DC> SB> Christians do have a better understanding of morality.
Christian: n. a believer in Jesus as the Christ, _or_ in
the religion based on the teachings of Jesus.
DC>that are out there. As for morality, we can stick to
DC>the very basic dictionary definition of knowing what is
DC>right and what is wrong. I don't htink you should have
SB> I have a problem with your definition of Christian. According to your
SB> definition, even Satan and his demons could be considered Christians
SB> since they believe in Jesus.
Well, by the dictionary, that is not only one of the ways
of defining "Christian", it is the first way stated.
SB> Rather it would be someone who sincerely repents of their sins,
SB> believes that Jesus was the Son of God, that He died for our sins and
Now you embelish on the definition, as taught to you by
your masters. Other x-tians have different masters who
teach somewhat different truths. Which is the correct
truth? If you all profess somthing different, you can't
all be correct.
SB> According to your definition, if Charles knew what was right and what
SB> was wrong but decided to do what was wrong anyway, he would be
SB> considered a moral person.
No, he only knew what morality was. His actions went
against morality, nothing more, nothing less. No, "I
really am sorry, and I now believe! So that get's me off
the hook, right?" People can change, and do. But not
on just a simple statement that can't be tested, but on
their overall actions and deeds.
... Jesus saves ... Moses Invests ... Cthulhu forecloses
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Hell Fire
Date: 06 Dec 93 07:48:00
--------
EID:3f07 1b863e00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A8C
-> Steve Bedard got back to Robert Curry Re: Hell Fire
RC>I'll ask again: Do you, Steve Bedard, approve of torture?
SB> torturing another person. However, God is not forcing anything on
SB> anyone. It is a persons choice of whether they want to go to Hell or
Well, do true Moslems go to hell? What about pagans? How
about Mormons? What is the fate your god has for them
when they die?
... Jesus was the lamb of God, Elvis had mutton chops.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 06 Dec 93 08:00:00
--------
EID:5379 1b864000
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A8D
-> Steve Bedard got back to Fredric Rice Re: Lightbulbs & X-tians
FR> FR>> Scientific method has killed your deities.
FR> FR> God is dead, Steve. Science has killed it.
SB> Thanks for reposting. The above comments strongly suggest that you
SB> are saying science disproves the existence of God. Earlier, people
Steve, your god is dead in the same respect that Thor,
god of thunder, is dead. (Though, I'm sure, someone will
disagree on that!) As well as Poseidon, god of the sea,
and many other gods that have outlived their usefulness
to explain natural phenomena.
No, Frederic did not imply that science has disproved
god. He's too intelligent to suggest that you could
disprove a negative. But he is more than intelligent
enough not to worry about such things as gobblins
in his closet.
BTW, how many night lights do you sleep with? Or is it
you teddy bear that keeps you safe at night?
... Don't be so open mined your brains all fall out!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Rice
Sub: Manson Finds The Lord God
Date: 06 Dec 93 08:04:00
--------
EID:3fb2 1b864080
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A8E
-> David Rice got back to Steve Quarrella Re: Manson Finds The Lord God
>DR> 2#) What the bloody hell is wrong with "Guns and Roses?" Are
>DR> they so fucked up they would glorify AND FINANCIALLY SUPPORT
From the article in my last Sunday paper, G&R is not sharing
the profits with Manson. Charlie apparently is a good
song writer, and they used his song in the album. However,
he gets no royalties for it.
One of the singers said he was donating his share of the
profits on the song to an environmental group.
DR> make laws against this very thing--- criminals making money off of
DR> their crimes.
I think any profits made by use of the criminals story,
while both in and after prison should go to the victim(s)
or the victim(s) family.
... "We are upping our standards... so up yours." Pat Paulsen
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Keith Rockhold
Sub: Re: Not True Christian(tm
Date: 06 Dec 93 08:38:00
--------
EID:bfbd 1b8644c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A8F
-> Keith Rockhold got back to David Rice Re: Re: Not True Christian(tm
DR> supported invasions of Cuba and Grenada. We used the atom bomb on
DR>
DR> I think that World War Two was the only war that America was
DR> justified in fighting.
KR> Ok, I have a problem, why bring up the US dropping tha atom bomb on
KR> Japan if you think we were justified in fighting it? Total war means
KR> country has done alot of aweful things over the years but you WILL NOT
KR> list that among them.
Why not? First of all, they could have done a test bombing
for the Japanese to observe, rather than kill all of those
people. In fact, as there were representative from Japan
in the US, they could have done a more controlled "experiment",
rather than risking a mis-dentonation over Japan itself.
Secon, there was a mis-translation of a Japanese document
about their willingness to surrender. The intent was that
they were willing to negortiate a peace. The translator
mis-translated a word and it came out that they were
completely unwilling to negotiate.
The reult was that Truman did what he thought was the
right thing and dropped the bomb. However, it may not have
been necessary. All those peoples lives, all hinged on
just a single word.
... Let Us Open Our Checkbooks and Pray- TV Evangelist
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 06 Dec 93 08:41:00
--------
EID:dd10 1b864520
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A90
-> Steve Quarrella got back to David Rice Re: Not True Christian(tm)
DR> rancher dug it up and sent it to the War Department, who sent
DR> it back a few years later.
SQ>
SQ> -Sent it back-?
Probably delivered by the BATF, in an appropriate
manner...
BTW, a friend of mine was to a gun show the other day. They
had a poster, which was a total sell-out. It had a BATF
warrior, dressed in their terrorist garb, hood and all, and
an assault rifle.
The caption:
"Hi, were from the government, and we're here to help you!"
... The Bill of Rights - void where prohibited by law.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Starwyn
Sub: testing 1,2,3
Date: 06 Dec 93 09:04:00
--------
EID:9fdd 1b864880
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A91
-> Starwyn got back to Shelby Sherman Re: testing 1,2,3
St> TEST THOSE CHRISTIANS:
St> John says "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits,
St> whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out
St> into the world." 1st John 4:1
I kinda liked this passage. It says to test that the
spirits are from god. That, to me, implies that if
god happens to visit you, you have to make sure that
he is who he says he is. Hence, you must prove god
exists.
Are you listening Ron and Stevie?
Further, it contraticts other verses of the bible that
you are not supposed to test god. Yet, John seems to
require that you stay safe from potentially deceptive
sprits. Hmmmm....
... "Warning, Warning! That is not logical! You are the Kirk!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Thanksgiving Greetings
Date: 06 Dec 93 09:06:00
--------
EID:d14d 1b8648c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A92
-> Steve Bedard got back to Jesse C. Jones Re: Thanksgiving Greetings
JC>you at least enjoyed your turkey.
JC> Thanks be to God!
SB> Amen brother!
When that at least explains the simnilarity in you posts.
Could you fill us in as why you have different last names?
... Why are there lightning rods on Churches????
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 09:20:00
--------
EID:16bf 1b864a80
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A93
-> Steve Bedard got back to Fredric Rice Re: Virgin Birth
FR>Read it again. It says that she didn't know who the father was.
SB> Sorry, but "knew not a man" means she did not have sex.
Not having the passage in question, I still think I
may be able to speculate... (never stopped me before!)
What if the passage was mis-translated? After all, we
know of a lot of things that have definitely been
re-translated. What if the original passage said "Knew
not who the man was"? Or what if it said "men"? Or
even goat?
Stevie, you are trying to defend a book that has been
shown to include errors of logic, as well as translation.
Further, it has been translated and interpretted by
people that have a religion to sell on the unsuspecting
masses. Puts the vote for god-hood into perspective,
especially as the proper re-wording makes it look
like Jesus may have been the one described in the bible.
... Meaningless gods cannot grant what they do not have.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: You need God
Date: 06 Dec 93 09:28:00
--------
EID:7d69 1b864b80
MSGID: 1:350/401 86042A94
-> Jesse C. Jones got back to Steve Quarrella Re: You need God
JCJ> Religious faith is more about questions than it is about answers.
Why, then, does it seem that when answers are provided,
that religion tends to do the ostrich routine and hide
it's head in the sand?
JCJ> People are hurting, Steve. Mother Earth is dying. You damned
JCJ> well _better_ take it seriously.
It goes with the mythos. x-tianity has given people a
reason not to worry about the planet, as it is not
the concern of their god. They worry more about an
after life. Well, the after life is already here. It's
called your children and the world they will inherit.
Wouldn't it be nice to leave them a legacy better than the
one we inherited from our parents?
... Cut 'em down and put em in a tree museum. -- Melanie
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
* Origin: Ten Forward-The Olympic Peninsula, where rain reigns ( (1:350/401
)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 350/401 21 343/300 1 138/1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Starwyn
To: David Rice
Sub: Yule Article
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:10:00
--------
EID:5df9 1b887940
DR>Why, are you wearing a cat on your head, too?
Well, I'm wearing one, but it ain't on my head....
LOL!
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: My Inner Child Is A Sick Little Bitch! (1:104/515)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 104/515 512 1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Starwyn
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: testing 1,2,3
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:11:00
--------
EID:0f07 1b887960
DC>Re: Mocking the wide scope of christianity as it is known today
If you're Xtain, please realize this is a joke...only a joke. No ill ¨feelings
okay?
DC>Are you a wiccan?
You betcha.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: My Inner Child Is A Sick Little Bitch! (1:104/515)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 134/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003
SEEN-BY: 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200
SEEN-BY: 270/101 102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 104/515 512 1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Children of light
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:04:02
--------
EID:1087 047ffec2
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab91fe99
-=> Quoting Simon Ewins to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JCJ> "For all who do evil
JCJ> hate the light
JCJ> and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may
JCJ> not be exposed.
JCJ> But those who do what is true
JCJ> come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds
have
JCJ> been done in God."
JCJ> -- John 3:20-21 (NRSV)
SE> Doesn't seem to fit with Luke xvi.8 --
SE> "... for the children of this world are in their generation wiser
SE> than the children of light."
Luke 16:1-9 is a difficult passage to understand. The speaker, however,
is the rich man in the story, and not Jesus. And I don't know what translatio
n
you're using, but the NRSV renders it, "the children of this age are more
shrewd in dealing with their own generation." The point, IMO, is in Luke
16:13: no one can serve God and wealth.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 135/71 292 359 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710
720
SEEN-BY: 209/770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Gospels
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:06:03
--------
EID:1087 047ffec3
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab91fe9a
-=> Quoting John Musselwhite to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JM> You might be interested in the latest book by "The Jesus Project"
JM> called "The Five Gospels", which is a scholars edition of the four
JM> canonical gospels plus The Gospel of Thomas....
Is that the one with the words of Jesus color-coded to reflect their
judgments on authenticity? I want to get that, in fact.
THE COMPLETE GOSPELS, edited by Robert Miller, also includes Thomas _and_
several other non-canonical gospels.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 135/71 292 359 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710
720
SEEN-BY: 209/770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Amazing Grace
Date: 07 Dec 93 19:31:04
--------
EID:1087 047ffec4
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab91fe9b
-=> Quoting Robert Curry to Jesse C. Jones <=-
RC> Do you mean to say that there is a call for me from your god Yahweh
RC> that I am not responsive to, or do you mean to say that Yahweh is
RC> not calling me?
JCJ> The answer, IMO, is 'yes' to both.
RC> So you are saying that there IS a call from a god that is NOT calling?
JCJ> I must first ask you where we start: what do you know or
JCJ> understand of the Christian concept of "grace"?
RC> If at all possible, please start by trying to make better sense.
Well, answer my question, then, so we can get started. What, if anything
,
do you know or understand about the Christian concept of Grace?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 135/71 292 359 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710
720
SEEN-BY: 209/770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Joy and thankfulness
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:06:05
--------
EID:1087 047ffec5
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab91fe9c
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JC> I think you have no concept of what true joy or thankfulness are.
SQ> What the fuck did I just tell you? Go ahead, then:
SQ> Tell me what "true joy" and "true thankfulness" are. I present you
SQ> with a whole post full of examples of Steve Quarrella being thankful,
SQ> and you pull out the "true" adjective. That figures. So you've got
a
SQ> "new, improved" joy and thankfulness that's better than mine? Let's
SQ> hear all about it.
Well, Steve, look up "joy" in any dictionary or thesaurus. You'll see
words like ecstatic (out-of-body), exultant, triumphant. Fullness of heart.
People can passively "be" happy, but what do we do with joy? We dance,
we
sing, we shout! It requires a certain child-like abandon, and a mature
confidence in the cosmos!
And "thankfulness" is not just about the special things we receive. It
i
s
a recognition that _everything_ we receive is special! It helps us to see
and
appreciate our gifts. It produces doxology rather than analysis It is
never
demanding of more. And it is never obscured by the deceit of thinking the
gif
t
is deserved!
Had any lately?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 135/71 292 359 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710
720
SEEN-BY: 209/770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Emptiness
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:14:06
--------
EID:1087 047ffec6
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab91fe9d
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Jesse C. Jones <=-
SQ> The most important was this bit about "emptiness". Please demonstrate
SQ> for the court how we're all "empty", and of course, please present us
SQ> with the evidence upon which you base this outrageous claim.
Well, your post, I think, is pretty compelling evidence!
You atheists are marching around bravely proclaiming, we don't need
nothin' or nobody! We people of faith recognize our needs. Who is it that
is
being unrealistic?
Rev. William Sloane Coffin answered a critic who called religion a
"crutch" -- "so what makes you think you don't limp?"
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 135/71 292 359 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710
720
SEEN-BY: 209/770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:22:07
--------
EID:1087 047ffec7
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab91fe9e
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Jesse C. Jones <=-
SQ> I note, however, that you missed an important point. Suzy's family
is
SQ> full of deity believers, yet they and many others (but not all...there
SQ> are some very wonderful people in Utah who are Mormons) treat people
SQ> who are not a part of their club as lepers. Why is that? Are you
SQ> going to feign moral indignation and say "They're not true Christians!"
SQ> Hey, they have a deity, YOUR DEITY, how come they're not loving
SQ> people? How come THEY aren't grateful that their daughter has found
SQ> someone she loves?
SQ> Although I do not care to have this taken for apologetics, I'm not the
SQ> monster you might think I am.
No, Steve, I would not accuse Suzy's family of not being true Christians
for not liking you. From what I have seen here, they only have good taste.
I hope that if and when my own daughters marry, I will be open and
inclusive about her selection of a mate. But I must say, I would be
disappointed and gravely concerned if she chose someone exhibiting the
hatefulness you consistently display here.
Or is it all just an act?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 135/71 292 359 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710
720
SEEN-BY: 209/770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Speaking the truth
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:38:08
--------
EID:1087 047ffec8
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab91fe9f
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Jesse C. Jones <=-
SQ> Tut tut. What would Jesus think of your insults?
Let's ask him:
"" hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside
look
beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all
kinds
of filth." -- Mat 23:27 (NRSV)
"Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them
without realizing it."" -- Luke 11:44 (NRSV)
"It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and
you
were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones
to
stumble." -- Luke 17:2 (NRSV)
"You brood of vipers! How can you speak good things, when you are evil?
For
out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." -- Mat 12:34 (NRSV)
"The good person brings good things out of a good treasure, and the evil
person brings evil things out of an evil treasure." -- Mat 12:35 (NRSV)
"You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to
hell?"
-- Mat 23:33 (NRSV)
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 135/71 292 359 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710
720
SEEN-BY: 209/770 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 135/71 292 379/11 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Lonnie Coleman
Sub: Where are we?
Date: 08 Dec 93 17:23:38
--------
EID:79a8 1b888ae0
On (07 Dec 93) Lonnie Coleman wrote to Amy Anderson-Coffin...
AAC> And may god strike me down for saying so.
LC> You are mistaken... He is merciful to us all.
So what? Santa Claus brings us all wonderful presents.
LC> It's only whether we choose to receive it.
It's only whether you are on his list of good little boys and girls.
Otherwise, you will get a lump of coal in your stocking.
... Quick! Close your mind! Something blasphemous might get in.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: The square roots of negative 1.
Date: 08 Dec 93 17:24:17
--------
EID:019f 1b888b00
On (07 Dec 93) Marty Leipzig wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> For instance, how does one distinguish (in the context of the
RC> complex field) the two square roots of -1?
ML> i know! i know!
But are you really positive?
Since the complex field is not ordered, neither root is positive
or negative. Each is just an additive inverse for the other.
... WARNING: Incorrigable punster! Do not incorrige.
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 3603/140 20 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Ron Stringfellow
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Givin' Ron just enough rope...
Date: 08 Dec 93 12:03:00
--------
EID:9ba0 1b886060
PID: ZZToss 1.0b15
Hello lipscinc,
ML> ML> RS> There's more lipscinc.....but we are finally getting
ML> some
ML> ML> where....
ML> ML> Sure is, Rongoloid. You act like you know so much
ML> about
ML> ML> it, why
ML> ML> don't you just go ahead and post your little trap?
ML> Scared
ML> RS> Getting worried lipscinc?
ML> Worried? Hah, that'll be the day, Ronzo the Wretched. More
ML> like
ML> amusingly humored as I play you like the well hooked
ML> mullet you
ML> are.
ML> RS> Why don't you just come clean and tell
ML> RS> us all of it instead of making me drag it out of you like
ML> pulling
ML> RS> teeth.
ML> Why don't you quit your sniveling and mewling? Why not go
ML> out and
ML> find that information for yourself, rather than this
ML> constant infantine
ML> begging and pleading for your betters to educate you.
I already know what I am seeking, I'm just waiting for you. Obviously you
¨don't know, or just aren't gutsy enough to post it. Which, btw, doesn't
¨surp
rise me. I've told this echo for a long time what you really are.
ML> RS> Or have you read that far in the book, lad?
ML> I'll "lad" you one, you pernicious whelp. Let's put it
resulting to threats lipscinc???? tsk...tsk... quite unbecoming an ¨"intell
ectual". Har!
ML> to your deference Ronzo; at least I have the ability to
ML> utilize books to
ML> increase knowledge. The only use they hold for you is
So you admit that you are getting this information out of the book? Well,
¨
keep reading and you'll get to the meat of what I am asking......
IHS!
Ron
--- SuperBBS 1.18 Beta-1 (Reg)
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/100 400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 381/70 383/1300
SEEN-BY: 387/1102 388/5 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Ron Stringfellow
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Marty Leipzig's generous but doomed attempt to inform you
Date: 08 Dec 93 12:14:00
--------
EID:fb86 1b8861c0
PID: ZZToss 1.0b15
(Dr. lipscinc in another failed effort at damage control said)
Hello lipscinc,
ML> RS> What Mr Lipscinc did was to slide casually by the issue.
ML> That's Dr. Leipzig, to you, you ignorant moron.
On a cold day in hell..You've yet to show that you are a doctor of anything
¨except cow manure. But I guess if doctor it is you wish to be address then
I
¨shall obliged Dr. Lipscinc.
ML> who has been dragging this out, I am merely playing you [
ML> like a
ML> well hooked fish who's so *&^%$ing senseless that he
With every fish there is some point when you reel him in...We are ¨waiti
ng....... and waiting.....you must not have anything on the hook or the
¨fish
is bigger then you think.
ML> RS> Thank him for what ? What time and effort does it take to
ML> answer
ML> RS> a question?
ML> For you, it must be a task of gargantuan proportions.
I'm not the one side-stepping the question....
ML> RS> Sure did, like to have died laughing at his paranoia.....
ML> You're the one seeing collusion and a global front out to
I'm not the one waiting for the big trap.....
ML> Unfortunately, you wouldn't know a scientific fact if it
ML> came
ML> up to you and pissed all over your shoes. Come to think of
and that is what you and most the participants would call a scientific fact
¨as well....everyone else would call it a lot of pissing and moaning....
IHS!
Ron
--- SuperBBS 1.18 Beta-1 (Reg)
* Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing - (1:387/303)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/100 400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 381/70 383/1300
SEEN-BY: 387/1102 388/5 396/1 640/75
PATH: 387/303 301 1102 170/400 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 07 Dec 93 16:56:00
--------
EID:6809 1b878700
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bc7
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> "That sounds like bullshit. Please provide some evidence that it's
> not,
> or admit you have no evidence and stop claiming it's a fact. Thanks."
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
But if you had read her -previous- posts, you would know she's speaking
more o
ut of belief than anything. If I were to say that there is no god, would
I be
forced to "prove" my statement? And how, pray tell, would I go about that?
Y
ou are putting her in a position where she cannot realistically convey to
you
what her feelings are. In your mind, she will always be wrong, no matter
if s
he says nothing or tries to explain.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 07 Dec 93 16:58:01
--------
EID:6809 1b878740
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bc8
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> Fantasy misperceived as reality is still fantasy, not reality.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I ask you to offer proof that this is the case.
I would argue that a "lunatic" believes a wall to be there, where we percieve
there not to be one. Can we prove there is no wall? Can the lunatic prove
th
ere is? No. It's a matter of perception. All laws of science, as WE perciev
e them, may say that the wall is not there. That does not prove that there
is
no wall, nor does it prove that there is.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:01:02
--------
EID:3bb2 1b878820
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bc9
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> Indeed - that's why we're here laughing at religion, instead. :-)
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I was like that for a time... But I have other beliefs that don't point
to a
"force"-less world. I believe there is something, non-sentient, that makes
th
e universe what it is. Be it "nature", "science", or whatever, there is
somet
hing unexplainable about the universe. I'm still searching to understand
why
it is what it is....
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Robert Curry
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:05:03
--------
EID:3676 1b8788a0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bca
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> Like your self-righteous tirade telling people to lay off?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
My statements were not at all self-righteous. A bit conclusionary, but
not se
lf-righteous.
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> Asking someone to clarify their apparantly outrageous claims seems
> harmless enough to me, but it sure hit your self-righteousness button,
> didn't it?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
There's nothing wrong with asking someone to give evidence. But verbally
cruc
ifying them on the spot is a totally different matter. Remember, atheists,
pa
gans, and other "non-Judeo-Christian" religions were persecuted for a long
tim
e by people just as Hector, who felt it neccessary to badger someone like
the
gestapo rather than ask them and DISCUSS their believed occurences. It
is not
our right to make judgements on other people.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:12:04
--------
EID:28ba 1b878980
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bcb
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> No he didn't. He made a public comment in a public forum. And only
> Christians seem to consider alternate viewpoints to be "attacks"
> against peoples beliefs.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Yes, he made a comment...one on which he had no basis to make. He was not
at
that exact same spot at the exact time she "experienced" what she experienced,
and has probably never been in a meeting of a coven or another pagan practice
. So he has no way of knowing whether or not she could have experienced
it, an
d thus, has no basis for the statement.
We mock what we don't understand.
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> Are you new to echo mail?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, I'm new to people being able to publicly discredit someone's beliefs.
I d
on't claim that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Taoists, Shintoists, Buddhists,
Wic
cans, and believers in Native American religions are wrong, as I have no
knowl
edge of whether or not they are correct. I have never been in a meeting
of a
witch's coven, or a Muslim gathering, or around meditating Buddhists, so
I don
't know what they are experiencing. So I don't go around making statements
th
at I really cannot make without jumping to conclusions.
People should discuss religion, not bash one another's religion.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
* Origin: [ The Dandelion Cult ][ StagNet ][ 4io+795+4987 ] (1:2617/117)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 2617/117 101 261/1023 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Lonnie Coleman
Sub: Where are we?
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:49:38
--------
EID:5949 1b88a620
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d063dfb
REPLY: 1:129/161 ab125db8
Salue, Lonnie!
Martis dies December 07 1993, Dixit Lonnie Coleman ad Amy Anderson-Coffin:
LC> You are mistaken... He is merciful to us all. It's only whether we
choos
e
LC> to receive it.
Please obtain a copy of GOD$LOVE.GIF from my system and then get back to
me ab
out this.
--- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Flaming atheists
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:50:16
--------
EID:5266 1b88a640
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d063e3f
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 05676e00
Salue, Hector!
Martis dies December 07 1993, Dixit Hector Plasmic ad Jesse C. Jones:
JC>> What is your point, Marty? I Aced the course, and went on to
JC>> get an honors major in history, graduating Magna Cum Laude and Phi
Beta
JC>> Kappa.
I really hate it when it turns into a ribbon-flashing contest.
HP> ROFL! Don't forget to tell us your GPA, height, weight, and belt level
HP> in karate.
Maybe he's one of the guys who threatened David Rice at an abortion clinic.
--- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101
SEEN-BY: 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Logic And Evidence 2/2
Date: 07 Dec 93 19:45:50
--------
EID:294a 1b879da0
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d04e692
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a70a8fde
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Fredric!
Tuesday November 30 1993, Fredric Rice writes to John Musselwhite:
FR> I wonder if there could be onw or two societal traits which could account
FR> for the degree of religious zealotry here in the United States. How
is
Look at the beginnings of your country and the Puritans... While the Purit
ans were the major influence on the early mores of the US, the Roman Catholics
and particularly the Jesuits were the dominant religious force here.
FR> the educational quality among the high school and college students in
all
FR> of Canada generally?
Education standards are fairly high here. In Calgary, our high schools are
amazing! Although they are cutting back on some programs, options mostly,
the
re are still excellent opportunities available. Home Schooling in this part
of
the Bible Belt is quite popular though, which is something I have severe
rese
rvations about in most cases. Higher-level education is split between Communit
y Colleges, Universities and technical institutes. Higher education is compara
tively cheap. Tuition at the University of Calgary in an undergraduate
program is about $2300 (if I recall) and the U of C has extremely good geology
, education and religious studies programs.
FR> And are there a heavy 'broken' marriages?
I'm not sure what you mean. The divorce courts are fairly busy if that's
w
hat you are referring to.
FR> Abject poverty among certain segments of the populace?
In our city of 850 thousand we do not have a "slum" area per se. Although
there are a number of homeless and "street" people, it is not nearly the
probl
em I see in American cities I am familiar with such as NYC and Portland/Seattl
e and the deep south. That isn't to say there is no poverty as the food
banks
are busy and unemployment is still fairly high. There are still kids who
go to
school hungry, but I'm not sure whether that is abject poverty or neglect.
I
see far too many people pay for their groceries at Safeway with food vouchers,
and a carton of cigarettes ($40 bucks here!) is sitting on the top of the
pil
e.
jm>> Our local religion debate echo often has higher
jm>> traffic than this one, and most of them are fundies.
FR> Is it really a forum for debate or is it much like this one?
More for debate as the rules specify there are to be no flames. We get our
share of "your ignorance is showing" comments, though.
jm>> Of course, Canada is also home to Penteweasel David Maines and his
FR> (Amazing how easilly fond terms are adopted. )
I REALLY liked that one. I'd NEVER use it in our local echo though... I
mi
ght want some of them to hire me some day... B-})
jm>> He was caught a few years ago asking for donations to keep
jm>> his Italian TV show and ministry going (he got them too!)
FR> This seems to be a common exposure these days. This is the third
FR> Penteweasel that I know of which has been caught doing exactly this.
Jim
It's documented in "Don't Call Me Brother", BTW... Although I find Maines'
sugary delivery enough to induce artificial diabetes I used to have at least
a modicum of respect for him. He always drove a Chevrolet and lived in a
modes
t house, but the money has to go SOMEWHERE...
FR> o Male-oriented, authoritarian religions tend to draw the weak
FR> and dysfunctional and the hopeless. Such people are easilly used
FR> and misused by anyone who can recognize the fact and hold no
FR> ethical constraints against employing that knowledge.
That is one of the major problems with fundamentalist religions as they
se
em to draw those sorts of people. They WANT their preacher to live in a
big ho
use and have all the things THEY will never have. Human nature is a very
odd t
hing.
FR> How does Canada treat the taxaction of religious institutions?
Church buildings actually attached to the main structure do not pay city
l
and taxes or Federal/Provincial income taxes, and are operated and licensed
as
non-profit charitable organizations like any other. Land attached to the
chur
ch is also tax-free but is normally deemed "public" land or green-space
anyway
. Police and fire services normally covered by taxes are provided in return
fo
r using the buildings for public meetings related to those fields. Applying
fo
r tax-free status for a church/religious organization is NOT easy though.
Bein
g a ULC minister here really gives me few of the privileges you get in the
US.
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Re: OUT OF CONTEXT...
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:29:48
--------
EID:3c27 1b87a3a0
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d04f2e8
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Stewart!
Tuesday November 30 1993, Stewart Harris writes to JOHN MUSSELWHITE:
>> JM>> You misunderstand what a theory is. This isn't a guess or an
>> JM>> estimation, it's a description of what is observed to have happened.
>>
SH> What if two contradictory events are observed to have happened on the
SH> same subject? Does that constitute two theories, neither proved; two
SH> theories, one proved, one disproved; two theories, both proved or both
SH> disproved?
It still results in one theory, which incorporates a description of the
ev
ents as observed. For example, it is observed that water is a liquid. It's
als
o a solid and a vapour under certain circumstances. There aren't three theorie
s about what water is, just one which contains the observed states.
(description of demonstration deleted)
SH> Two facts exist. Two contradictory conclusions are possible. How do
Until some FACTS exist - something quantified - ANY conclusion is possible
.
SH> Einstein said: Truth is what experience bears out. Some have said
SH> there is no concern in science for truth. Is there any truth exhibited
SH> in the above scenario?
Not that I can see... Until it is expressed in figures it isn't science,
i
t's opinion (thankyou RAH)
>> JM>> I don't _believe_ either way. It isn't something that requires
>> JM>> belief. It happened. The theory describes HOW it happened.
SH> Could not a theory explain how something didn't happen?
Only if it doesn't happen under certain circumstances where it is expected
it would.
SH> Are there not many other way to defy gravity other than flying?
Flying isn't "defying gravity". It's taking advantages of the properties
o
f air moving over a wing.
SH> And
SH> with far less commotion than that put out by an airplane or rocket?
The
SH> evaporative process defies gravity in a sense, fortunately. In the
SH> above experiments, gravity is defied by magnetic effects. Permanent
SH> magnets, that is. Or don't you agree that that is possible?
MagLev trains exist. There are many possibilities for harnessing magnetic
energies. Who am I to say what is or is not possible in that respect?
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Re: question
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:18:04
--------
EID:1dbc 1b87aa40
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d04f7b0
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Stewart!
Tuesday November 30 1993, Stewart Harris writes to JOHN MUSSELWHITE:
SH> Just out of curiosity, is everyone in the family in on the role-playing?
SH> I mean, are the wives and children, if there are any, all in the know?
Well, my sisters are Anglican and fairly devout, but have no objections
to
the ritual. The youngest child is 20 and is also Anglican. She knows what's
g
oing on.
SH> Since you state you are atheist and obviously are too intelligent to
be
SH> hedging your bets, I don't see the point.
Actually, I've never stated I was an atheist. I'm a deist. To me the point
is not in the worship, but the tradition and history the seder (in particular
) represent. As an amateur historian with a passion for seeking the origins
of
Judeo-Christian traditions I'm certainly willing to "rub blue mud in my
navel
" when the situation calls for it.
SH> I am not saying I have to or
SH> even have a right; and if I am too close to touchy-touchy area, I'll
bug
SH> off.
Religion is only a touchy area if you have a hangup about it.
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: Yours truly
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:48:04
--------
EID:2565 1b87ae00
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d04fa29
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Steve!
Wednesday December 01 1993, Steve Quarrella writes to All:
SQ> Did I mention that I'm on page 10 of the December BBS Caller's Digest?
SQ> That's me in the Detroit Tigers shirt. :)
Mine hasn't come yet... I'll be looking for it! B-})
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Re: OUT OF CONTEXT...
Date: 07 Dec 93 21:50:44
--------
EID:25bf 1b87ae40
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d04fba6
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Robert!
Thursday December 02 1993, Robert Curry writes to John Musselwhite:
RC> It is a matter of Faith that Pluto is motionless at the exact
RC> center of the universe, or rather, that the Sacred Saltshaker on
RC> its surface is. Pluto is just a bit off-center because of that
RC> fact. Let those who have eyes to see, see!
RC> Your hatefulness blinds you to the truth. I feel sorry for you.
Oh yeah? Well, I don't use salt at all except for an addiction to Zesty
C
heese Doritos so there! On the other hand, I always keep a variety of salt
su
bstitutes and peppers nearby... B-})
Is the Sacred Saltshaker the one Bones McCoy used as a medical implement
i
n the old Star Treks?
John
... "Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!"
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Re: The Xtian fraud called Piltdown Man
Date: 08 Dec 93 09:52:06
--------
EID:ee9b 1b884e80
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d05a554
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Ron!
Thursday December 02 1993, Ron Stringfellow writes to John Musselwhite:
JM>> Actually, I have! It's very simple. Pack the sample up with
JM>> a description of where it was found, and either send it to the
JM>> University of Calgary geology department or the Royal Tyrell
JM>> Museum in Drumheller. Depending on the sample, a few weeks
JM>> later the answer will arrive along with the bill...
RS> Now, John, I have posted with you for over a year. I have not ever
RS> caught you deliberately lying to me. Either you haven't or I'm not as
RS> astute as I think I am. Perhaps both. :) I'll ask you again...Did you
mea
n
RS> to say that YOU have submitted material in to be dated...and are you
RS> telling me that is ALL that you had to do?
This isn't some big mystery or conspiracy or anything, Ron. Science and
th
e
benefits of scientific research are available to everybody, at least here
in
Canada. The University of Calgary has one of the finest geological research
labs in the country due to the heavy demands of the oil industry here. They
charge a fee depending on the complexity of the testing and the purpose.
There
are a lot of private labs and free-lancers around who'll do it too, but
of
course, the price is higher. This is the hub of the Canadian oil industry
and
almost every kid here knows where the oil came from. One of the ways they
find
it is to analyse the core samples the wells bring up. Accuracy is fairly
important when companies are pouring millions of dollars into the holes.
If it's a paleontological sample the Royal Tyrell museum an hour's drive
from here is well-equipped for that. It's one of the finest dinosaur museums
and research facilities in the world and its scientists publish in technical
journals regularly as well as participate in projects the world over. When
I
was a kid wandering Horseshoe Canyon just west of Drumheller finding "dinosaur
bones" was a regular game for my friends and I. Even at 10 years of age
we wer
e able to recognize various fossils and where to find them. Pity you never
had
the opportunity...
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Re: Christ And Messiah
Date: 08 Dec 93 10:10:44
--------
EID:abdf 1b885140
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d05a87d
REPLY: 1:350/401 85FE2D8E
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Dan!
Tuesday November 30 1993, Dan Ceppa writes to John Musselwhite:
JM>> And here I've been trying to figure out what the "H" in "Jesus H.
JM>> Christ" stood for!
DC> "H"??? I thought the middle initial was "F"....
Here in Canada people are always saying "Jesus H. Christ"... I HAVE heard
the "F" in the middle before, though...
DC> ... Jesus Saves, Gretzki scores on the rebound!
When I was a kid it was "Esposito scores on the rebound"!
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Re: Commie idiots
Date: 08 Dec 93 10:13:30
--------
EID:94d5 1b8851a0
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d05a8dd
REPLY: 1:2617/117 a90b6e8c
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Dan!
Friday December 03 1993, Dan Sereduick writes to Jonny Vee:
DS> It's time for people to get up off their asses and fight for what they
DS> believe in. Yelling at the TV accomplishes NOTHING.
You can always do what Elvis did and shoot it!
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Re: Givin' Ron just enough rope...
Date: 08 Dec 93 10:26:34
--------
EID:cacb 1b885340
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d05ac93
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Ron!
Friday December 03 1993, Ron Stringfellow writes to Marty Leipzig:
RS> Getting worried lipscinc? Why don't you just come clean and tell
us
RS> all of it instead of making me drag it out of you like pulling teeth.
Or
RS> have you read that far in the book, lad?
Put down that old cracked cup and get yourself to a hospital immediately
and have yourself tested for lead poisoning, Ron. Nobody can spend as much
tim
e in here as you and yet become MORE stupid and ignorant as time wears on!
Then again, maybe drinking from the cracked old cup of religion has given
you LED poisoning!
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Duchess
Sub: Re: theology
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:03:10
--------
EID:e225 1b887860
MSGID: 1:134/67 2d05ecfe
REPLY: 1:247/133 a9173e2a
PID: GEDP16 G1114
Hi Duchess!
Friday December 03 1993, Duchess writes to John Musselwhite:
>> B-})
D> Well... this is the cutest little evil smiley if I've ever seen one!
Evil? It's just a happy guy with mirrored shades and a handlebar moustache
!
John
--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: The KeyBoard BBS [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 134/1 67 157 5004 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720
770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 134/67 1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Peri Michaud
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Nebraska Man?
Date: 01 Dec 93 01:42:38
--------
EID:fdbc 1b810d40
MSGID: 1:142/232 2cfc4f1b
PID: TeleMail 1.51
-=> Quoting Fredric Rice to Peri Michaud <=-
pm> Hmmmm.... It seems your're chomping at the bit about this "Nebraska
pm> Man" as, I believe, you have tempted Rabid Ron with this once before.
FR> Oh yes. And it's God Marty L. who has set out his traps and baited
FR> them. I'm just trying to help drive the prey towards the waiting pit
FR> but I think the prey has been alerted to the dangers and will dig
FR> himself a hole to hide in and merely ignore the hunters.
So, I take it God Marty isn't a merciful God, eh?
"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffian Gods can say
'Nebraska Man!' at will to old preachers." -Roger, the shrubber
pm> Since ole Ron chooses not to answer (seems a habit with him),
pm> I'll bite (pant-pant).
FR> Let's make sure that Marty is through with SpinRon. I have text files
FR> about the Nebraska Man and, thanks to Marty, about the Piltdown Man.
FR> I would just be spouting in ignorance from the archives. Let's see
if
FR> Marty will post the sad facts.
Do you honestly think God Marty will *ever* be through with Ron? :>
Well, it looks like I'm off to brave the rough mall terrain in search
of knowledge. Thanks to David for his suggested reading.
pm> Lay it on me bad-boy!
FR> Santa has got my number, yes.
I thought it was Satan?
Pez
... Wreck the malls with cows on Harleys...fa,la,la,la,la
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: Please don't kill the messenger. (1:142/232.0)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 336 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
SEEN-BY: 112/1 128/1 142/1 232 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770
SEEN-BY: 218/101 219/302 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 332/301 379/11 396/1
SEEN-BY: 640/75
PATH: 142/232 1 101/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Tag: HOLYSMOKE was Updated.
Date: 08 Dec 93 10:50:50
--------
EID:2bc5 1b885640
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
EA> Origin: Distribution: ZONE1 BACKBONE, ZONE3, ZONE6
Zone 6?! I haven't seen anybody from Zone 6 in here! When did that happen?
... Beam me up, Scotty!! It ate my phaser!!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: The Xtian fraud called Piltdown Man
Date: 08 Dec 93 16:41:56
--------
EID:818d 1b888520
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Ron!
6 Dec 93, dixit Ron Stringfellow ad Amy Anderson-Coffin:
RS> Southwestern Assemblies of God at Waxahachie, Tx. I am
RS> still currently enrolled there .
So where ELSE are you an honour student? Isn't the above a bit recursive?
... DESQview: Windex for Windows
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: ALL HAIL KENOSHA
Date: 08 Dec 93 16:44:42
--------
EID:7d51 1b888580
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Marty!
6 Dec 93, dixit Marty Leipzig ad Amy Anderson-Coffin:\
ML>> ... I'll drink a Foster's to that!
AA>> Marty, I love you. You drink Cool Beer! Come to our next Australia
I too enjoy a semi-weekly trip to the Outback for two 24 ounce cans of
Foster's. :)
... If ignorance were a drug, we'd all be stoned.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: Occult Stuff....
Date: 08 Dec 93 16:46:32
--------
EID:e42d 1b8885c0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Rick!
6 Dec 93, dixit Rick Vanderzwaag ad All:
RV> For those of you who have Internet access, and have an
RV> interest in the occult. try FTP'ing over to 132.158.82.36
Oh boy...my online library is gonna LOVE that. Thanks! :)
... "We are upping our standards... so up yours." Pat Paulsen
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: Demon Barney
Date: 08 Dec 93 16:51:24
--------
EID:9319 1b888660
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, David!
7 Dec 93, dixit David Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
DB> [cuts] Rev. Joseph Chambers says ... "Barney is teaching kids
DB> that we must accept everyone as they are--- whether they're
DB> homosexuals or lesbians."
DR> Homosexuals -OR- lesbians?!
There's a volume to be written here, isn't there?
... (A)bort (R)etry (I)nfluence with a larger hammer.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Fire
Sub: Scope of echo
Date: 08 Dec 93 17:01:12
--------
EID:cdf2 1b888820
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, David!
5 Dec 93, dixit David Fire ad Kitty-Kat:
DF> Well, I have two friends that are highly interested in
DF> Norse Mythology, if you would like I could talk them and
Norse mythology is a pet subject of mine. Fire away. :)
... Never lick a gift horse in the mouth.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/9005 9015 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Don Martin
Sub: Taboo drinks
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:35:51
--------
EID:b7ae 1b889c60
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3854376e
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2cffaad4
MG>> Real men use single shots.
DM> I'm delirious about my .65 cal flintlock, personally. A
DM> little slow, but what it hits, it macerates.
Actually, even though it's off topic, at 1000 yards black powder guns have
mad
e higher target scores than rifles with no sights and modern smokeless powders
.
To make this topical, take a shot at a fundy sometime....
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Hostility
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:42:24
--------
EID:32f8 1b889d40
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38544dc7
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e5d
MG>> SB> If people believe it, it can't be unbelievable.
MG>>People believe in segregation and in the atrocities of WWII.
SB> I did not say believeing in something is always good. I said it
SB> makes it believable.
There are two outcomes of this logic...
1. People believe that the moon landing never happened. Does that mean
that
it didn't happen?
2. Your original statement was aimed at a belief in god. We weren't talking
about good and bad. We were talking about belief. Your claim seemed to
be th
at if enough people believe in it, it must be so. Not good, not bad, it
must
make it right ie. belief in a god. But enough people believe in silly things
like Pink Hippopotomi and racial segregation and man's "faked" landing ont
he
moon and so forth. My point is that you were trying to say that if enough
peo
ple believe in something, it must be real and right. My view is that it
just
makes it soemthing that people believe in.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:47:15
--------
EID:748c 1b889de0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38545871
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e5e
MG>> SB> That is not what I asked. What would happen to the AIDS
MG>>epidemic
MG>> SB> if people followed the NT teaching of sex only within
MG>> SB> marriage?
SB>
MG>>Marriage means monogamy. Wouldn't that do just as well?
SB> Probally. Then do you agree with my original statement?
With a disclaimer, I do. that discalimer is that while absolute monogamy
with
in a marriage would lessen the epidemic, the thrust is that any monogamyu
woul
d do the same thing. You seem to wnat to stick a moral label ont hose that
ha
ve sex outside of marriage. I cannot do that. No matter what your sexual
ori
entation is, both viewpoints achive the same thing. but if you wnat to
say th
at my viewpoint is based ont he bible, you're wrong. It's based on common
sen
se. I would never condemn anyone for having a monogamous lover. But those
th
at are promiscuous are another story. Ye tif the bible condmens those,
I cann
ot do it for a moral reason. I have to do because they are acting stupidly
in
a world where it is dangerous to have too many sex partners.
Different reasons, but they achive the same end.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Address
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:51:37
--------
EID:d750 1b889e60
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38545a2c
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e5f
MG>>Hmmm...dunno what took so long. The mail seems to be slow
MG>>these days. Send
MG>>me a pic and I will scan it and put it on Steve's BBS. If
MG>>you like, I will
MG>>return it to you as well.
SB> OK, soon as I find an appropriate pic, I will send it. I am sure
SB> all my adoring fans out there can't wait to see what I look
SB> like.
Hey...if you're real nice to me, I won't put you in the pic next to Leipzig.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: ALL
Sub: The End Is Near
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:54:22
--------
EID:5454 1b889ec0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38546616
Tomorrow is the ninth of December. If anyone experiences earthquakes, floods,
fires, or other natural disasters, the reason is simple.
By the time you have read this, Godmarty and myself will have had lunch
togeth
er at some cheap joint in Houston. I know that it will be cheap as he has
off
ered to pick up the check. Having never met him, this should be a strange
exp
erience.
Will let you know if he actually drinks bourbon or if he's just trying to
be f
unny. No one with any intelligence would stoop to drinking that stuff.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:58:50
--------
EID:34a8 1b889f40
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3854705f
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a8943e55
mg>> Marriage means monogamy. Wouldn't that do just as well?
FR> That could change, I would expect... Group marriages, I mean,
FR> could quickly catch on. For tax reasons if for any other reason
FR> as it might be financially safer and provide for children better
FR> than two-working parent families.
Small groups would be OK...as long as no one entered with some kind of disease
. If the group gets to large, it gets unmanagable. I'll never forget this
wo
mean that showed up in our service once with a HUGE syphilitic sore on her
ton
gue. She belonged to some kind of group sex club that was mostly into oral
se
x. All it took was one clown to bring int he bug and everyone was infected.
People that are responsive to each others sexual needs would prevent this
sort
of thing from happening.
Now, you can pull that tongue out of your cheek.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:02:00
--------
EID:e855 1b88a040
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38547423
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a8943e56
DR>> I have never heard or read about a Wiccan sacraficing an
DR>> animal out of religious conviction. I suspect Ariadne is
DR>> mistaken.
FR> I agree with both of you. Pagans and Wiccans would find the
FR> practice disgusting and, perhaps, pointless -- even with the
FR> intent of making lunch. I mean, I saw kids asking _trees_ for
FR> permission to tie lines to them. And, no, before you ask, they
FR> didn't wait for an answer.
It's a moot point. I think that you are right in thta not many sane people
sa
crifice anything to some god or other any longer. If a sacrifice is required,
a bowl of fuit might just do just as well.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: STILL SEEING CREATIONIST?
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:31:07
--------
EID:b2fc 1b88abe0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 385544ca
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a90addae
FR> I have no idea what different blood types mean so far as DNA
FR> repairing itself. It was, in fact, a trap for Mister Wolff which
FR> he ran smack into. I figured (rightly) that he wouldn't know
FR> what the significance of different bloodtypes are either.
Another moot point. The Big Bad Wolff seems to be suffering from some kind
of
hard drive ailment or somesuch. Too bad...such an easy target.
Oh yeah, did you get to tell him that differing blood types are proof of
evolu
tiona nd not disproof of it?
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Yes, we have another one...
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:32:42
--------
EID:7c92 1b88ac00
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38554930
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a90addaf
mg>> You may bow and send tribute to the Most Arrogant.
FR> You may begin at any time. }:-}
I'll not pray to myself. I'm not THAT arrogant.
mg>> Btw, thanks for the postcard. Believe it or not this
mg>> is the first time I have thought of it while typing.
FR> Welcome to Holland.
Was in Amsterdam once. Went to take a tour of the Heinikin factory and
they d
idn't even geve us a free beer.
I started drinking Lowenbrau.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Don't be a moron, Al
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:41:35
--------
EID:6b48 1b88ad20
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38555bda
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbf8
mg>> I think we're up to it. Trot it out here for all to see.
CF> A dozen participants have suggested that he start. One wonders
CF> why he doesn't.
I don't. he he he he he......
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:43:19
--------
EID:7f05 1b88ad60
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 385566c9
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9948057
MG>> The belief is counterproductive. It encourages many to just
MG>> believe and do not good deeds. You might say that it is the
MG>> communism of religions as it does not rewrd hard work.
MG>> Did Jesus not teach about good deeds and their worth?
JCJ> This is so typical of the deceit practiced by the heathens
JCJ> here. You quote a _portion_ of what I had to say, and then
JCJ> accuse me of omitting that which _you_ deleted.
JCJ> Ä Area: Holy Smoke ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
JCJ> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Msg#: 7758 Date: 11-30-93 20:29
JCJ> From: Jesse C. Jones
JCJ> To: Steve Bedard
JCJ> Subj: The Gospel!
JCJ> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
JCJ>
SB>> However, I would like to add one more important thing.
SB>> That is how do we make ourselves right in God's eyes? Is
SB>> it by simply believing that He and Jesus exist? Even the
SB>> demons believe that. Is it by doing tons of good deeds? We
SB>> can not earn our way to Heaven. Really the only way is to
SB>> surrender our lives to God and accept the free gift of
SB>> salvation from Jesus. If we truly repent and accept Jesus
SB>> as Saviour, our lives will truly be blessed.
Well here it is again for all to read and study. "We cannot earn our way
into
heaven". This sounds damned close to your saying "Good deeds are not importa
nt". Furthermore "Really the only way is to surrender our lives to God
and ac
cept the free gift of slavation from Jesus." This sounds damned lcose to
sayi
ng that believing is everything.
So, even though IO left out part of the quote, I don't think that anyone
with
any intelligence would claim that I was trying to haide hte fact that you
clai
med that good deeds are not important, but that belief is everything. It
sure
sounds to me like that's what you said.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Neal Feldman
Sub: Burning Bush
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:46:58
--------
EID:e40d 1b88adc0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 3855692a
NF> bush that is so full of oils that it will burn without
NF> consuming the bush for a considerable time (and the bush
NF> itself is somewhat flame resistant as well) and that such
NF> burning can even begin spontaneously?
NF> I forget the botanical name for this shrub but just thought this
NF> was a place which could use such a tidbit of trivia...
Most desert shrubs are high in burnables, but what you are thinking of is
the
Creosote Bush from which comes creosotes which is a long burning substance.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Don Martin
Sub: Happy Thanksgiving...
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:49:15
--------
EID:013a 1b88ae20
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38556e70
REPLY: 1:109/519.37 2d00724a
MG>> Worst thing is, that in jail, you have
MG>> to go see the chaplain once a day.
DM> God! I hope you weren't wearing your altar boy suit.
Worse than that. I was wearing my "Chicken" costume. You should have seen
hi
s eyes light up.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Martin Goldberg
To: Starwyn
Sub: Christmas Article
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:54:25
--------
EID:9031 1b88aec0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 38557a64
S> From past experience, I've found that wives don't take it kindly
S> when I send photos thru the mail...:)
S> Will this be a problem?
MEbbe.....what will you be wearing?
Tell you what, I'm gonna call your system. Upload some gifs for you. Weill
l
eave you the old work address there.
--- msgedsq 2.1
* Origin: Disembowelments Done Daily (1:124/4115.221)
SEEN-BY: 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 105/30
112/1
SEEN-BY: 128/1 147/7 170/400 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302
SEEN-BY: 270/101 273/10 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75
PATH: 124/4115 1 396/1 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Kitty-Kat
To: David Rice
Sub: Fundie news
Date: 06 Dec 93 23:22:36
--------
EID:6990 1b86bac0
MSGID: 1:243/30.0 2d04050c
-=> Quoting David Rice to All <=-
DR> "The lord himself told us that the garage must close" said Heap,
DR> who immediately wrote to BMW: "Keep this letter, because when
DR> you're standing in the dole queue lookign for another job, it will
DR> help you to realise exactly how much God is in charge of everything."
DR>
DR> At that point, the garage manager decided to refer the entire matter
DR> over to the police.
If this wasn't so hilariously funny, it would be rather
terrifying. Could you imagine living in close quarters with
these people. Good grief!!!
... "Gullible" isn't in the dictionary. Go ahead, look it up!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: ±²± LIFTOFF! BBS ±²± Adult Entertainment š (613)567-6425 (1:243/30)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 243/30 51 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Kitty-Kat
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Proof etc
Date: 06 Dec 93 23:33:38
--------
EID:d4a4 1b86bc20
MSGID: 1:243/30.0 2d0407a2
-=> Quoting Stewart Harris to Jesse C. Jones <=-
SH> In the past week, I have heard, "Show us your proof!" Then, "Nothing
SH> can be proven, only disproven." That is followed, "You know the only
SH> truth is in what science shows." Another scientist says, "Science has
SH> absolutely not to do with the truth." The I have learned, "Science
is
SH> not concerned with anything beyond nature, including truth." But
SH> Einstein said, "Truth is what experience bears out."
SH> Sheesh, guys, make up your mind!
I must admit I share your confusion. I've been lurking on this
echo and not sure what to make of it. Seems to be a lot of
negativism and attacking going on. Whatever happened to sane
peaceful discussion where we give one another permission to
disagree without attacking his/her point of view. Are we all
adults here or children?
... Smash forehead on keyboard to continue......
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: ±²± LIFTOFF! BBS ±²± Adult Entertainment š (613)567-6425 (1:243/30)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 243/30 51 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: All
Sub: Satanism 1/5
Date: 08 Dec 93 06:36:00
--------
EID:fe9f 1b883480
MSGID: 1:247/133 ab8c0728
* Edited by Rick Vanderzwaag on 08-Dec-93 06:36
Throughout the many months that I have been carrying and reading this
echo, I have carried on a number of discussion about Satanismm, and have
indicated that I was in the process of collecting information on the subject,
but did not feel at the time that I had enough information on hand to fully
st
ate an opinion on the subject. Having spent a number of months now compiling
d
ata, by talking to people (owners of occult shops in Toronto, New York,
and L.
A.) accessing BBS systems, and the Internet. Seeing that this is often a
topic
of discussion here, and many people (by my recollection) have made various
cl
aims that I have found difficult to accept, both from an Atheist's
perspective on Satanism and those lovable fundies and their rediculous claims
about what Satanism and the occult are all about, I figured that I might
as
well post some facts about the occult in order to set (no pun intended)
the
record straight about many things. The purpose in the following series of
messages is to properly place "Satanism" in its proper context, and
differentiate it from other occult groups which deny any association with
Satanism at all. In regard to the former, it has been my recollection, based
on the postings of a few people, that they deny certain facts about satanism
which should be considered. In regard to the later, most fundies that I
have
seen are quick to criticize anyone in the occult movement as being
"Satanists", and this too is something that should be clarified as well.
Satanism:
This is a very misused term. The majority of people that I have encountered
associate the use of this term with Anton Szandor LaVey's Church of Satan,
which has no theistic proclivities or beliefs whatsoever. Founded in 1966,
the Church of Satan was a medium for studying the Black Arts which was
predominately hedonistic and materialistic in nature. Satan, as a figure
does
not have any spiritual significance with this group, and its use in the
name
is mainly symbolic. The philosophical basis for much of LaVey's beliefs
are
to be found in the materialistic and hedonistic philosophy of Nietzsche,
which looks to this life (as opposed to the after-life) and the creation
of
new values for the here and now. The association with Satanism is of course
a
natural one, primarily because one of the principle works that LaVey wrote
was the Satanic Bible. It is a misnomer to assume that this has anything
at
all to do with Satan. Of course, in 1975, the Church of Satan lost its place
as the principle meduim for "Satanism", after LaVey announced that all levels
and grades were attainable by cash donation. Since 1975, the principle group
that can be "rightfully" called "Satanists" is the Temple Of Set, founded
by
Dr. Michael Aquino after a consultation with the "Prince of Darkness."
(Source: TSINF.SET available at slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com or 132.158.82.36
on the Internet)
The Temple Of Set, which at this point in time, is the only Federally
recognized institution (USA 1975, has tax exempt status, both federal and
state recognition), and hence is the only group of "believers" that can
be
appropraitely labeled "Satanists". In 1975, after LaVey had made his
announcement about the levels and grades being attainable by cash donation,
the majority of the Priesthood rejected LaVey's greedy inclinations, and
the
Church of Satan entered a period where its staunchest proponents no longer
saw it as a legitimate institution. At this point in time, "the senior
Initiate, Dr. Michael Aquino, invoked the Prince of Darkness in quest of
a
new Mandate to preserve and enhance the more noble concepts which the Church
Of Satan had conceived and outlined. That Mandate was given in the form
of
_The Book of Coming Forth by Night_ -a statement by that entity, in his
most
ancient semblance as Set, ordaining the Temple of Set of succeed the Church."
(Ibid.)
<<<<<<< Continued on Next Message>>>>>>>
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: All
Sub: Satanism 2/5
Date: 08 Dec 93 07:50:01
--------
EID:fe6f 1b883e40
MSGID: 1:247/133 ab8c0729
<<<<<<<< From previous message>>>>>>>
Temple Of Set:
It is a _THEISTIC_ religion, having its foundations in the ancient Egyptian
Religion (Priesthood of Set) which can be dated as 3200 BCE (Images of Set)
and 5000 BCE (astrinomically based inscriptions). The ancient form of the
religion (one of two worshipped in Egypt at the time, the other being the
followers of HarWer or Horus the Elder) lasted for approximately 25 dynasties
(till 700 BCE). It was disbanded by a new wave of Osirian percecution durring
the XXV dynasty. Durring the XIX dynasty however, the characture
(Hieroglyphic) was carried by the Hebrews into Isreal as Set-Hen, which
was
one of the god's formal titles, later refered to as Satan.
"Set was one of the ealiest Egyptian dieties, a god of the night identified
with the northern stars. In the earliest ages of Egypt, this Prince of
Darkness was well regarded. One persistant token of this regard is the Tcham
scepter, having the stylized head and tail of Set. The Tcham scepter is
frequently found in portraits of other gods as a symbol of magical power."
(Set in Egyptian Theology by Oz Tech available at 132.158.82.36 on the
Internet)
Members of the Temple of Set "worship" Set in the affirmation of ones
individualsim, the "Real You", or individual psyche. (Xeper) Those who follow
this group recognize that the human psyche is something unique in the
universe, and something to be preserved. Additionally, they seek the
development of a "psychoecentric consciousness" which evolves according
to
the development of the Will, as in Nietzsche's Will to Will, Will to Power,
as a process of "coming into being" or "becoming". (Xeper) proponents of
this
faith however are clearly to be recognized as "dedicated to the Prince of
Darkness" or Set.
Members of the Temple of Set are not to be confused with those who practice
cannibalism, drugs, graverobbing, Church desecration or sexual violence,
which is the typical "Hollywood" image of "Satanism", or those preached
from
the pulpets of most fundamentalist churches.
Principal deities include Thoth, Bathoment, and of course Set.
Aleister Crowley:
Edward Alexander (Aleister) Crowley (1875-1947) joined the Isis-Urania Temple
of the Golden Dawn in November of 1898, however he dropped out of the
organization in 1904, and formed the Astrum Argenteum. The central beliefs
here were patterned after the Rocsicrucian Black Arts, and the cerimonial
magical philosophy of the Temple of the Golden Dawn, with a heavy emphasis
on
Kabbalah (Qabalah, cabala) practices, knowledge and communication with ones
"guardian angel", and later the Masonic/sexual practices of the German Order
of Oriental Templars and the Tantric Buddhists. His writings indicate a
wide
interest in maickal practices, which includes: 777, which is an important
text on the Tables of Kabbalistic correspondences, Legis, or the Book of
the
Law, which is an important text on the Will, whose central theme was the
Law
of Thelema, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" and the Love
under will, in the unity of all in all.
<<<<<<< continuted in Next Message>>>>>>>>>
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: All
Sub: Satanism 3/5
Date: 08 Dec 93 08:53:02
--------
EID:3e3e 1b8846a0
MSGID: 1:247/133 ab8c072a
Aleister Crowley: (continued)
Book of the Law, which is probably his most important work, was written
at
the command of Horus, and his guardian angel (Aiwass), who he contacted
with
the help of his wife Rose, the daughter of Sir Gerald Kelly. Being as
interested as he was in Kabbalah would certainly make him theistic, due
to
the predominance of God amonst this Jewish tradition (Kabbalah means
tradition, or more specifically "oral tradition") and the emphasis placed
on
the divinity of the Torah, the study of which is to unlock the secrets of
the
creation. Other Kabbalists which Crowley had dealings with, were his close
friend and associate E. A. Waite, and Samuel Liddel Mathers whose book
"Kabbalah unveiled" was a translation of three texts from the Zohar.
Additionally, Crowley himself held a belief in the existence of his own
guardian angel, (Aiwass) and Horus (Possibly the same Horus mentioned in
reference to Set) and encouraged his followers to do the same. Various
anecdotal writings, by both Crowley himself, and those who were directly
associated with him, indicate that on more than one occaision he summoned
Demons, as in the 47 which he sent off to fight Mathers. Was Crowley a
Satanist? No, probably not, although he himself expressed certain
reservations about whether the magick that he was using was white or black.
In order to clarify the fact that Crowley was not associatated with Satanism
per se, I shall consider those groups which he affiliated himself with,
i.e. K
abbalah and the Temple of the Golden Dawn, or those groups which turn to
his w
ritings, i.e. The Thelemic Order and the Temple of the Golden Dawn.
Kabbalah:
"The earliest documents associated with Kabbalah come from the period ~100
to
~1000 CE, and describe attempts of "Merkabah" mystics to penetrate the seven
halls (Hekaloth) of creation in order to reach the Merkabah (throne-chariot)
of God. These mystics appear to have used what would now be recognized as
familiar methods of shamanism (fasting, repetitious chanting, prayer,
posture) to enduce trance states in which they literally fought their way
past terrible seals and guards to reach an exstatic state in which they
"saw
God"." (Kabbalah FAQ from Alt.magick (by Colin Low) to be found at
ftp.lysator.liu.se on the Internet)
Of principle importance to Kabbalists is the Divinity of the Torah who claim
to possess an initiated understanding of it, its hidden meanings, and the
divine power contained within it. In addition to this is that belief that
by
studying its texts, one can unlock the secrets of the creation. Furthermore,
they place an emphasis on another aspect of the Jewish religion, that of
prohecy. Kabbahalists believed that they were the inheritors of the practical
techniques of the prophets of the Bible, which was handed down to them.
Kabbahalists are not to be confused with Satanists, although many of their
practices are associated with Satanism, prinicpally the study of numerology,
linguistics, and magick. However, they are none-the-less to be considered
theistic, as an esoteric branch of Judism.
<<<<<<< Continued in the next message>>>>>>>
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: All
Sub: Satanism 4/5
Date: 08 Dec 93 09:20:03
--------
EID:ff8f 1b884a80
MSGID: 1:247/133 ab8c072b
Temple of the Golden Dawn:
"What is the Golden Dawn? To quote its "history lecture," (from Regardie's
_Golden_Dawn_), "The Order of the G.D. [Golden Dawn] is an Hermetic Society
whose members are taught the principles of Occult Science and the Magic
of
Hermes."
Started in London in 1887 by three British Freemasons, Dr. William Robert
Woodman (Magna Est Veritas Et Praevalehit), Dr. William Wynn Westcott
(Sapere Aude), and Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers ('S Rioghail Mo Dhream),
the first Temple of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Isis-Urania,
began to admit Fratres and Sorores in 1888. For the next two decades, they
generated a body of occult knowledge unparalleled to this day. Traditions
as seemingly different as Chaos Magick and Gardnerian Wicca have roots in
the
Golden Dawn, and it has influenced scholars (e.g. A.E. Waite) and poets
(e.g. W.B. Yeats) alike. The Golden Dawn "system of magic" is designed to
educate the student of the esoteric in both practical matters of ritual
and
divination, and in abstract metaphysical ideas. The focus of the Golden
Dawn
material is primarily Western -- i.e. Judeo-Christian, Greek, and Egyptian
-- but some Eastern ideas have crept in over the years. It is a
"hierarchical" system, in that certain information is reserved for students
who have passed beyond a certain point in their occult education."
(Golden Dawn FAQ by Stepehn R. Crammer available at ftp.lysator.liu.se)
Those associated with the Temple of the Golden Dawn emphatically deny that
it
is a religion, although religious topics are frequently discussed, and a
religous attitude is held by many of its followers. Additionally, they deny
any association with Satanism/paganism, although Kabbalah, Rosicrucianism,
Greek Mythology, Celtic Mythology, and Egyptian mysticism all figure
prominantly in their studies.
Thelemic Order and the Temple of the Golden Dawn:
This particular group, which is a blend of Thelema and the Temple of the
Golden Dawn, also deny any involvment or association with Satanism. Their
principle beliefs center around the Law of Love, Love under will, which
unites all in all. The principle figure of worship here is Pan, or all.
(Although this has a certain methological relationship to a follower of
Dionysis) They follow many of the teachings of Crowley, such as the above
law
of love, taken from Crowley's Book of the Law, and Crowley's belief in the
communication with ones guardian angel. (Thelema vs. Satanism by the Thelemic
Order and the Temple of the Golden Dawn)
Although what I have posted here does not include a consideration of
neo-paganism, Wicca, or other pagan religions, of which most of you are
familiar with, a follower of Crowley, Thelema, Kabbalah, or the Temple of
the
Golden Dawn cannot be considered properly a "Satanist", and most of these
groups would deny any association with it. Satanism, in its true form, can
only be considered, at this point in time, in relation to the Temple of
Set,
and not with the Church of Satan, which is Satanist in name only. The reasons
for regarding the COS as illegitimate were covered in the first message.
The
consideration of Kabbalah, Thelemic order and the Temple of the Golden Dawn,
Temple of the Golden Dawn were presented in order to show that Crowley had
precious little to do with "Satanism" per se, and that those groups which
refer to Crowley and his works deny any association to Satanism what-so-ever.
To be sure, any proper initiate into any of these groups would immediately
draw a distinction between "Satanism" and what they believe, and any true
follower of the works of Crowley would also quickley recognize this fact.
<<<<<<<< Continued in Next Message>>>>>>>
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: All
Sub: Satanism 5/5
Date: 08 Dec 93 10:46:04
--------
EID:3fde 1b8855c0
MSGID: 1:247/133 ab8c072c
As I indicated at the beginning of this series, the assumption that Satanism
has nothing to do with Satan is _WRONGFULLY_ based on the beliefs of the
Church of Satan. The COS is about as legitimate as the fundamentalist's
PTL
(Jim and Tammy Bakker's program) network, or Jimmy Swagart and his crowd.
If
you want to talk about _legitimate_ _Satanists_, then you'll refer to the
followers of the Temple of Set, which is clearly Theistic, and is clearly
based on what "christians" call "Satan". (Biblical Satan was imported from
Egypt durring the XIX dynasty under the hieroglyphic Set-hen) This claim
is
based on the literature distributed by the Temple of Set itself, and not
based on some third party Christian fanatic's interpretation of it. They
draw
that analogy explicity in their information file, and it is not something
that I have imposed here. The same figure is later cited as the "Prince
of
Darkness", by Dr. Michael Aquino himself, so don't bother misquoting what
I
have written here. I have been redundant on that one point, primarily because
my recollection of some of these discussions centers around a numnber of
peopl
e wrongfully criticizing everyone who has drawn that same analogy here,
statin
g that they have been "Christianizing" or "fundi-izing" Satanism. If there
is
anyone that you need to take this issue up with, it is Dr. Michael Aquino
him
self, or the followers of the Temple of Set, and at least tell them not
to mak
e such claims in their own literature. As I have also indicated, the Temple
of
Set is the ***ONLY**** federally and state recognized institution of its
kind
, which is not true of the Church of Satan.
I would suggest that you don't take my word alone for it, but that you access
the Internet system, and download the files that I have listed here.
slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com
pub/magick/
Information on Crowley, Kabbalah, Temple of Set, Thelema, Temple of the
Golden Dawn, Orgone, Tantra, OTO (about 22 megs in all)
ftp.lysator.liu.se
pub/magick
Information on Kabbalah, Thelema, Temple of the Golden Dawn, Crowley, Tantra,
OTO, etc. FAQ's available here. (FAQ: Frequently asked questions)
wiretap.spies.com
pub/finges/occult
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Steam Tunnels BBS 14.4 V32 V42 (1:247/133)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 247/133 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: David Rice
Sub: True colors
Date: 07 Dec 93 23:34:26
--------
EID:4226 1b87bc40
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d0516f5
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d034d08
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day David:
In a msg of , David Rice writes to Derek Clayton:
DR> With a few seconds worth of thought, I'd say that "evil" is that
DR> which directly harms, causes harm, or through inaction allows harm.
DR> "Good" is that which opposes harm. "Good" can still exist without
DR> the existance of "evil" because harm is not derived soly by "evil."
I like the idea of comparing good and evil to the common concept of harm.
DR> "Harm" is that which prevents one from achieving happiness, provided
DR> that said happiness comes about without harming another.
DR> "Happiness" is that which feeds us, shelters us, gives us pleasure,
DR> nurtures us, and gives value to our lives.
DR> So "evil" would be that which limits, in any way, another's, or one's
DR> own, quality of life. "Good" is that which supports and adds to the
DR> quality of life.
I like this even better. It's a bit utilitarian but that seems necessary
if w
e are going to quantify the term "quality of life".
I would define good and evil as follows (liberally stealing from your ideas)
:
"Good" - that which improves the quality of life for persons without
DR> Unfortunately, all too often the happiness of one person sometimes
DR> depends on harming another. I call this "evil," and I have no answer
DR> for it. "It is the ability to sleep soundly, knowing that one's
DR> neighbors are in agony," as Carol P. Christ put it.
DR> So for Jesse to assert that the USA is somehow morally superior to
DR> the USSR. . . well, that seems utterly meaningless to me. Only when
DR> he provides a valid scale upon which "morality" can be measured can
DR> I agree or dissagree with him.
DR> -+- Maximus 2.01wb
DR> + Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Problem
Date: 08 Dec 93 01:57:08
--------
EID:51c5 1b880f20
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d053482
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Robert:
In a msg of , Robert Curry writes to Derek Clayton:
RC> "Proof" of Ciya could follow the same general outline, with some
RC> slight modification of particulars.
Of course. Arguments strictly from definition always give rise to absurdities
.
Most, if not all, a priori arguments for the existence of the christian
god wo
rk just as well for other superstitions...they're all crap.
It's amazing how much time theists spend trying to prove that god COULD
exist.
A graduate philosophy student wrote to our university (Waterloo) newspaper
cl
aiming that he had proven by induction (obviously) that god could exist.
Big
deal. Anything that is not logically impossible (such as an object with
prope
rties A and not A) COULD exist.
RC> So where's Moshe?
Good question. It would seem a simple task to spend a few minutes posting
a "
proof" for god's existence. Why is that theists can never get to the point?
T
hey always seem to disappear or claim that the "proof" is beyond our understan
ding.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Karl Lembke
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:11:12
--------
EID:f662 1b881160
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d053c19
REPLY: 1:102/943.0 2d0122aa
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Karl:
In a msg of , Karl Lembke writes to Ariadne:
KL> I also tend to doubt the anti-sacrifice sincerity of a person
KL> who doesn't have body lice, insects in his home (what? using
KL> a fly swatter? Shame on you!!), or takes antibiotics when
KL> ill.
That's not a valid comparison. The only true hypocritical opponents of
wiccan
animal sacrifices are those who kill animals of comparable self-awareness
for
a purpose of unproven validity. For example, someone who kills a rabbit
beca
use they believe it will cure their blindness.
Only your example of insects comes close.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: David Rice
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 03:29:14
--------
EID:d19b 1b881ba0
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d054a4b
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d034db4
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day David:
In a msg of , David Rice writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
DR> Polytheism, pantheism, and atheism.
Isn't this like saying that an object is a circle, a square, and a triangle.
DR> Mother and Goddess to us; She created us, nurtured us, and provides
DR> most of our needs (we humans provide the rest, as we are part of
DR> Nature Herself). She can just as easily destroy us (witness
Earth created us?
DR> Dinosaurs). My opinion is that Wiccan view this "higher power" as
DR> Nature and Jungian archetypal, not as some actual beings.
Do wiccans believe that "Nature" is sentient?
DR> That's a large part, sure. When was the last time you saw a Wiccan,
DR> Pagan, or neo-Pagan come in here and tell us all that we need her
DR> Goddess in order to be thankful for what we have? Or tell us that
DR> we have some "need" and "emptiness" within us that Goddess alone
DR> can fill?
We may not be told that we need be thankful to the goddess for our existence,
but we are certainly being told that we owe our existence to her.
"She created us, nurtured us, and provides most of our needs..."
This certainly implies that we owe our existence and continued well-being
to t
he deliberate actions of the goddess.
DR> I didn't see any "double standard" being applied. I have mentioned
DR> a few times that I have had, and continue to have, "out of body
DR> experiences," starting when I was about 12 years old-+- no one
Do you believe that you were given knowledge during these "out of body experie
nces"? What enables you to distinguish them from hallucination?
DR> I'm Wiccan. I was initiated by a priestess named Jenipher, and I am
DR> a covener of Sea-by. Most of my coveners have no belief in deities
DR> as actual beings. They understand that Goddess and god are archetypal.
Is it good to let archetypes have such an effect on one's life?
DR> Now and then I come accross Wiccan who believes in Goddess and god as
DR> a living, actual Being-+- my observation is that they are few.
Maybe they're not true wiccans.
DR> ourselves. We do not mandate the behaviors of others. I cannot think
DR> of a single aspect of Wicca that is inferior to Christianity. We tend
Do you believe it is superior?
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Ariadne
Sub: souls and superstition
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:56:34
--------
EID:65dc 1b881700
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d054649
REPLY: 1:153/826 529fbd0c
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Ariadne:
In a msg of , Ariadne writes to Robert Curry:
A> I was talking about sentience originally, if you remember rightly. Life
A> can be found in many forms. But sentience and intellect cannot.
Intelligence is not an "all or nothing" attribute.
A> So an ape is just as intelligent as we? Or a hippopotumus? Then why
don'
t
A> they read and write? Communicate in more complex forms?
Not all brains are created equal. The very fact that intellect comes in
many
forms is the reason that apes are not as intelligent as we are.
A> I've heard many the scientist refer to that thing which keeps us alive
and
A> living as we do, as "soul." Since it's a (so far) indescribable thing,
A> what matters the word we use?
We are kept alive and living by the functions of our physical body. If
you ha
ve evidence of another factor in the process feel free to provide it.
A> Okay, but fish have brains, as do birds, rhinos, polar bears... I don't
A> see them trying to kill us off for poisoning their atmosphere (which
would
A> be an intelligent thing to do).
Which might be the intelligent HUMAN thing to do provided it were physically
p
ossible.
A> All I'm saying is that our consciousness, or soul, or intellect... the
A> thing which creates the tiny voice that says "that's right" or "that's
A> wrong" (no morality implied, by the way... I have never met a person
who
A> didn't have that inner self saying things about one thing or another).
Al
l
A> these things humans have, and yet animals don't.
"animals don't"? How would you know? It is fair to say that humans commit
fa
r more meaningless atrocities than animals...a gift of our superior intelligen
ce perhaps. If anything, animals are better able than humans to act according
to what is right rather than wrong.
A> And many animals have
A> just as developed brains... so what's your point?
Name one.
A> Sigh... Without the means to meet you and do certain things, I couldn't
A> change your opinion. Although I think I could, given the time and
A> attention. I won't say I could "prove" it, though... the things which
I
A> might do aren't necessarily "scientifically sound."
How christian of you.
A> My point being, you have no more proof than I do . And at the
very
A> least, I get comfort and and good feeling out of being a Wiccan...
Self-delusion is often more comforting than the truth.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
SEEN-BY: 12/12 101/1 102/2 138 752 835 850 851 890 943 1006 1302 103/0 104/1
SEEN-BY: 105/30 106/116 112/1 115/439 128/1 138/1 147/7 151/1003 170/400
SEEN-BY: 202/1 209/208 209 710 720 770 218/101 219/302 260/1 267/200 270/101
SEEN-BY: 270/102 273/10 283/657 290/627 309/2 379/11 396/1 640/75 730/2
PATH: 221/200 100 12/12 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Lady Timberwolf
Sub: Marty goes down on a rope...
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:45:53
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet ab950844
PID: FM 2.02
ML> Look, Ronzo, I've already posted (now twice, you pernicious
ML> moron) the methods and procedures of radiometric dating.
??> Well if it take a third posting then do
??> it, if they wanna learn let them.
Yet in fact the intended student holds no interest in learning anything.
~*~ But when judgement is cast down upon you ... don't forget to get out
your calculator and convert the temperature in hell from Celsius to Ranki
n
units. - David (Christian Soldier)
---
* Origin: But in your heart you know it's flat. (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Christian Soldier
Sub: Faith In God
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:50:11
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet ab950845
REPLY: 1:123/67 2d03e56c
PID: FM 2.02
cs> It is not irrelevant, because it is evidence of the validity of the
cs> Christian faith. The fact that Christians seem to be more caring,
cs> more socially acceptable, and lead successful lives, could well be a
cs> manifestation of God working in their life.
Neat! The fact that Christians seem to be more willing to rape children
than
atheists could well be a manifestation of god working in their life.
SS> Please provide evidence of one miracle.
cs> Extreme order of our universe.
NEAT! Have the poor dear point at some of this "order" he sees.
~*~ We are all in need of salvation. I may not know you, but knowing you
are an atheist, I know you need to be saved. It must be extremely
difficult to be an atheist? - Scott Shiflett, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: Occult Stuff....
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:55:26
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet ab950847
REPLY: 1:247/133 aa83f3d5
PID: FM 2.02
> For those of you who have Internet access, and have an interest in
> the occult. try FTP'ing over to 132.158.82.36 and have a look at what
> they have to offer. They have approximately 22 megs worth of texts on
I don't speak 132.158.82.36 addresses. Does it have one that looks like:
> fvanderz@spartan.ac.brocku.ca
I can request file lists from this type of address and request files as
well t
hrough the Internet <==> FidoNet Gateways but I don't know about the numbers.
~*~ It's the end of the world as we know, ah it's the end of the world
as we know it -- and I feel fine - R.E.M.
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Comrade Fredric
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: True colors
Date: 10 Dec 93 09:38:40
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet ac098a35
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2d038333
PID: FM 2.02
dc> G'day Comrade:
CF> And do you entertain situational ethics? Or are ethics a set of rules
CF> carved into stone and not to be broken?
dc> I don't profess to have adequate and final knowledge
dc> which would allow me to carve my personal ethics and
dc> morals into stone.
Which seems, to me, anyway, to be the higher ideal. More so:
dc> I am always coming upon new information which requires
dc> that I rethink my personal ethics and morals. What seems
dc> obviously moral to me now may seem immoral to me when I'm
dc> sixty.
It's certain that an unyielding set of morality or ethics in light of new
expe
riences and knowledge isn't conducive to "personal growth." (Whatever that
is
for each individual.)
~*~ If only more christians read their bibles there'd be less christians.
- Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: "I would do any thing for love; but I won't do that." (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Comrade Fredric
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Births
Date: 10 Dec 93 09:41:15
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet ac098a36
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2d038548
PID: FM 2.02
dc> G'day Comrade:
Greetings, borgeious capitalistic...
The views and opinions stated within this web page are those of the author
or authors which wrote them and may not reflect the views and opinions of
the ISP or account user which hosts the web page. The opinions may or may
not be those of the Chairman of The Skeptic Tank.
Quotes used within this web page and within this web site are used according
to the Fair Use
laws of the United States.
If you find anything inaccurate or otherwise
mistaken on this web page, please send a correction to Fredric L. Rice at
the e-mail address offered below -- with our thanks.
Back to the start of the 11 Years of HolySmoke web site
E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank