God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Lady Timberwolf
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Re: Givin' Marty just enough rope...
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:45:00
--------
EID:2c42 1b86b5a0
-=>Marty Leipzig chatted to Ron Stringfellow on 12-02-93 11:17 <=-
ML> Hey, Rectum-Faced Guppy. Yeah, you.
I know you ain't talking to me.....but I sure is hell gonna talk to you.
ML> Look, Ronzo, I've already posted (now twice, you
ML> pernicious
ML> moron) the methods and procedures of radiometric dating.
Well if it take a third posting then do it, if they wanna learn
let them.
RS> sigh....back to the smoke and mirrors...what else is required
ML>
ML> More. Much more. Get a fucking book and read it rather than
ML> spending months (reel, reel, reel...Hey! Look at him tailwalk!)
ML> begging your betters to do it for your pathetic little self.
YOUR FIRED!
ML> ... I was born stupid and have been losing ground ever since.
Agreed!
... Yes, you're very smart. Shut up.
--- Blue Wave/QBBS v2.12 [NR]
* Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50.0)
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--------
From: Christian Soldier
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Faith In God
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:03:38
--------
EID:3181 1b86a860
MSGID: 1:123/67 2d03e56c
----------------------------------------------------
Hi. This is Shelby. I just couldn't help but forward this
little jewel from Christian Soldier in our own local religious
debate area, THUMP_IT.
Here it is from the home of Trent Hall, Fundus_Maximus.
---------------------------
CS> This is just my token December visitation. I will soon go on
CS> another
CS> hiatus ... just to return when you least expect it.
SS> With tons of baseless assertions in tow, no doubt.
It is truly sad that you insist on going through life demanding YOUR VERSI
ON of proof of the one and only really important thing, when, I presume
there
are probably countless things you take for granted (without proof) on a
daily
basis.
CS> The message is so feeble??? Are you kidding? It is profound to
> the
CS> extreme! Ever lasting life!
SS> Evidence?
Evidence? I need evidence to proof to you that the message IS NOT "feebl
e" - as you claimed?
You will not admit that the Christian claim of everlasting life for all
t
hose who believe is not PROFOUND? In fact, you say it is feeble?
I would understand if you claimed that the PROOF was feeble ... but not
t
he message.
CS> Even the most ardent non-believers will concede that the
> Christian
CS> message, as far as providing guidelines for living one's life, is
> most
CS> consistent with proper and successful social interaction.
SS> Fallacy of irrelevant conclusion.
--My note: This is archive material
***********************************************************************
It is not irrelevant, because it is evidence of the validity of the Chris
tian faith. The fact that Christians seem to be more caring, more socially
ac
ceptable, and lead successful lives, could well be a manifestation of God
work
ing in their life.
***********************************************************************
SS> Please provide evidence of one miracle.
Extreme order of our universe.
--- GoldED 2.41
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: All
Sub: Occult Stuff....
Date: 06 Dec 93 03:48:00
--------
EID:7edc 1b861e00
MSGID: 1:247/133 aa83f3d5
Hey fellow Holysmokers.....
For those of you who have Internet access, and have an interest in the occ
ult. try FTP'ing over to 132.158.82.36 and have a look at what they have
to of
fer. They have approximately 22 megs worth of texts on the occult, principally
on the Temple of Set, Kabalah, Thelema, Orgone, and a few other interesting
g
roups. Of real interest is the complete version of the Equinox by Aleister
Cro
wley, along with supplementary readings associated with this great work,
vario
us text files prepared by Dr. Michael Aquino and other initiates on the
Temple
of Set, a complete occult reading list (Temple of Set), informational/practic
e files on Thelema meditation, Tantra, OTO, Orgone, and other rituals and
rite
s. Certainly one of the best collections that I have seen. Check it out....
fvanderz@spartan.ac.brocku.ca
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 05 Dec 93 20:02:50
--------
EID:8b2c 1b85a040
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d024480
REPLY: 1:153/826 529cc63a
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Ariadne:
In a msg of , Ariadne writes to Derek Clayton:
A> Nope, that's not what Wicca is. That's what "I-am-ian" is. It's how
*I*
A> personally practice Wicca. Although my beliefs do fall within the rather
A> wide borders of Wiccan belief structure. Some people feel they know
A> exactly what God/dess is. Some feel that God/dess is only a metaphor.
I
A> believe that God/dess is a *something*
So it's a tailor-to-your-needs religion.
A> . I think that part of it, though, might be that Wiccans don't
A> proseltyze, don't claim that Wicca is right for all, and don't feel the
A> need to shove Wiccan down your throat.
I don't think that most christians are out to convert others. In fact,
I don'
t think I've seen one message where a christian has said "Let me send you
a pa
mphlet, join me in Christ" etc. Usually all that a christian need do to
recei
ve a barrage of messages is "I believe in god the father, maker of heaven
and
earth".
A> be a 2000 (or a million) year old religion. Wicca is a religion BASED
ON
A> older forms of religion, and it works quite well. But what we practise
to
A> day is a mishmash of lots of older religions and philosophies. We don't
A> care if you or your kids practice it. In fact, to be quite honest, most
A> Wiccan Priestesses I know try to DISSUADE people from joining Wicca,
rathe
r
A> than attracting. That's because Wicca certainly isn't for everyone.
Consider this:
Wicca is exclusively either a truth or a lie (i.e. the forces of the world
can
't be both as wiccans say and what not-wiccans say). However, you think
that
wicca is not for everyone. So you think that the truth is not for everyone.
Either that, or you feel that wicca is not the only truth but instead accomoda
tes other truths. For example, ACTUAL healing (not merely the belief) can
be
achieved by majik, or Jesus, or whatever you personally like.
A> Nothing at all. I have no problems with any Christian, Jew, or Muslim
(or
A> any other religion) sharing their personal experiences with Deity as
they
A> see him/her/it. What I object to is their trying to force that concept
of
A> Deity down my throat. If it were just a sharing rather than a conversion
And I guess you won't oppose those who would challenge your beliefs as you
"sh
are" them. After all, that is what this echo is for.
A> Not true. Just yesterday, I got accosted for saying something that I
had
A> personally experienced. Of course, it hadn't occured to the person that
i
t
A> wasn't something that was meant to be shared... My personal experiences
Then why did you post it public?
A> Sure... but for some people it works . I work magick, and I've
foun
d
A> it works... By trial and error, I've found various things that work for
me
.
So the performing of magick is something that could be tested then?
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Starwyn
Sub: testing 1,2,3
Date: 05 Dec 93 20:35:28
--------
EID:d318 1b85a460
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d0246a7
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Starwyn:
In a msg of , Starwyn writes to Shelby Sherman:
S> TEST THOSE CHRISTIANS:
S> A Non-believer's Guide For Testing The True Christian.
Re: Mocking the wide scope of christianity as it is known today
Are you a wiccan?
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 18:42:24
--------
EID:16a3 1b869540
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d037eab
REPLY: 1:2617/117 aa0316f0
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Dan:
In a msg of , Dan Sereduick writes to Derek Clayton:
DS> It's like those conversations where one person keeps asking, "Why?".
AAARRRRGGGGHHH!! Sorry. Flashback of a conversation I had with my neice.
DS> There's never an end to the questions.
DS> "Why do we exist?" "A god." "Why does it exist?" "It created itself."
DS> "Where did it get this power?" "It always had it." "How did it come
to
DS> be?" "It just did."
There may be an infinite regression of questions, but there is also an infinit
e regression of answers...one for every question. We may not know the answers
, but they must exist otherwise the question would be invalid. For example,
w
hy does X do Y? If no answer exists then X does not do Y. We may not know
th
e answers for every valid question, but they must necessarily exist. It
is up
to us to become curious for the answers.
DS> It just gets to the point where you have to say, "It's unexplainable."
Only within current human limitations.
DS> That's why I believe what I believe. :)
Thanks.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: True colors
Date: 06 Dec 93 19:01:04
--------
EID:1742 1b869820
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d038333
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbe1
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Comrade:
In a msg of , Comrade Fredric writes to Derek
Clayt
on:
CF> And do you entertain situational ethics? Or are ethics a set of rules
CF> carved into stone and not to be broken? I merely ask because morality
CF> subject to change seems the higher morality and it usually carries with
i
t
CF> ethics which also change as situations demand.
I don't profess to have adequate and final knowledge which would allow me
to c
arve my personal ethics and morals into stone. I am always coming upon
new in
formation which requires that I rethink my personal ethics and morals. What
se
ems obviously moral to me now may seem immoral to me when I'm sixty.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 19:09:14
--------
EID:3acf 1b869920
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d038548
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbe2
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Comrade:
In a msg of , Comrade Fredric writes to Derek
Clayt
on:
CF> Ariadne has experienced something her perceptions and preconceptions
CF> designated as "goddess" and "physical manifestations." And I'll not
even
CF> bother to ask what "stuff like that" cover.
I'm beginning to think that most people ignore wiccan claims because they
can'
t be bothered. They see christianity as a cancer on humanity while wicca
is j
ust a wart.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 15:58:08
--------
EID:6809 1b867f40
MSGID: 1:2617/117 aa954d87
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> A request for evidence of an outrageous claim for which no evidence has
> ever been provided before (despite the claim being quite old) is hardly
> "making judgements before knowing the circumstances." This copout
> sounds very much like the typical fundy "respect me even though we both
> know I'm full of crap and don't deserve it."
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
That's your opinion. You're taking your personal opinion as undisprovable
and
demanding her to give proof which she has no need to give. You ruled out
her
beliefs as "bullshit" until she could properly prove her point, and otherwise
, is just full of shit.
I ask you, prove your beliefs.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 16:04:09
--------
EID:43c2 1b868080
MSGID: 1:2617/117 aa954d88
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> A dangerous statement. What about beliefs that promote hatred either
> directly or indirectly? Should these remain unchallenged?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Yes, they should, until they infringe on others' rights.
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> Once people resign themselves to mere acceptance of belief and
> consequences then rationality is no longer needed...nor probably
> desired.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I didn't mean to believe what they believe, or to even take it seriously....
Just to respect that these people have their beliefs. And are responsible
for
their actions as a result...
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 16:07:10
--------
EID:28ba 1b8680e0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 aa954d89
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> Nonsense. He's calling her on her occult claims; nothing more.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, he's looking at her occult claims, laughing out loud and pointing his
fing
er. This attitude is what separates our country.
-----[ First Fredric Rice Said: ]-----
> It seems that fundies always spout "attack" when someone disagrees with
> them.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Maybe they do...glad I'm not one of them. As of right now, I'm an atheist
wit
h Wiccan / Buddhist tendencies (still soul-searching).
Fundy? Ha... I fully give him the right to call the Bible a load of bullshit
... Just NOT to someone who believes in it.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: thankfulness
Date: 06 Dec 93 19:56:58
--------
EID:40a7 1b869f00
On (05 Dec 93) Steve Quarrella wrote to Jesse C. Jones...
JCJ> I think you have no concept of what true joy or thankfulness are.
I missed that in the original.
Are you really just like the racist bigot who claimed superior
intelligence for his "race" and then decried the obvious counterexamples
that non-prejudiced people pointed out as "not _true_ intelligence?"
Or else, "OK, but they must be a mixed breed [to explain it away]."
That's really sick, isn't it? But how does it differ from your bigotry?
... A difference that makes no difference....is no difference.
--- PPoint 1.68
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Fundamentalists of all st
Date: 05 Dec 93 12:50:04
--------
EID:10ce aa0ba5d4
MSGID: 1:206/2720 a98c595e
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 fea85d00
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> What you refer to here are observations dismissed
> because they were
> "false observations," non-repeatable.
I fear you have misinterpreted me, though probably because I was insufficientl
y clear.
> For example, an experiment that produces a result that
> doesn't agree
> with a theory's predictions _once_ may be discarded as
> faulty. An
> experiment that produces a result that doesn't agree
> with a theory's
> predictions _repeatedly_ under controlled conditions
> disproves the
> theory; it must be discarded or revised. The multiple
> tests with
> agreeing results comprise a confident observation.
But not a certain observation. Other theories are needed to show that the
tes
ts have in fact been adequately controlled. If those other theories aren't
tru
e, in what way has the theory under test been shown to be false? If they
are
true, how do we know that? Clearly because science is in fact perfectly
capab
le of showing things to be true. That it cannot show things to be true
beyond
the possibility of revision is another matter; it also cannot show things
to
be false beyond the possibility of revision. Obviously, if enough of the
theo
ries on which the test depended were shown to be false, after much time
and fu
rther research, then the tested theory might well be accepted as true again.
If this doesn't happen very often, that is because the number of possible
fals
e theories is so much greater than the number of true theories, so any random
theory that we hit upon is probably false. Thus, by the time we find out
that
the original tests to prove it false were inadequate, we likely would have
fo
und other tests which we still accept which proved it false. This, however,
i
s a pragmatic question; there is no logical gulf between proof and disproof.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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--------
From: David Fire
To: Kitty-Kat
Sub: Re: Scope of echo
Date: 05 Dec 93 08:15:00
--------
EID:746e 1b8541e0
-=> Quoting Kitty-kat to All <=-
Ki> I've lurked this echo off and on. I'm looking for information on
Ki> Celtic mythology. I'm also looking for people who'd like to
Ki> discuss Catholicism with an open mind and in a charitable spirit?
Ki> Any takers?
Well, I have two friends that are highly interested in Norse
Mythology, if you would like I could talk them and get some information
from them and post back to you.
Dave
* LAKOTA v1.1
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
* Origin: BAYOU BBS ## West Monroe, LA ## 318-397-1822 16.8 DS (1:19/16)
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--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 17:30:40
--------
EID:317c 1b868bc0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 03dcbf00
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a03d9e
>>>HP>Then you mean that it's personal opinion, right?
>>A>In some ways, yes.
>HP >Copout. It's only personal opinion or you've got evidence.
>HP >Which?
A>Prove to me that the sun goes around the earth; give me evidence.
Simple. Call someone in Europe at sundown.
A>Give me evidence that the moon isn't made of green cheese!
There's plenty of film footage and actual moon rocks available for your
inspection, dear.
A>It's personal opinion
Sure, if the person is a total moron and refuses to review the readily
available empirical evidence. Would that shoe be your size?
A>I believe that the earth goes around the sun
I don't find it hard to believe that a fundy like yourself would believe
such a thing. Yes, it's become apparent that you're as much a fundy as
Ron Stringfellow, Ariadne. No evidence and scared to death to admit it,
too dumb to stop asserting the bullshit as fact.
A>I believe in Goddess. My point here is that it doesn't make it
A>any less "real."
Bullshit believed is bullshit still, my dear.
>HP >You mistake bluntness for anger.
A>I don't think so.
ROFL! Swim, little fishie; "you're so angry" is a typical fundy ploy.
A>No, I've demonstrated that they're true for me.
Bullshit believed is bullshit still, my dear. Where's your evidence?
>HP >Then produce the reasons for your faith.
A>What do you think the last few messages have been?
More fundy bullshit, of course.
A>shove your belief system down everyone else's throat
No, thanks. I have no "belief system" to shove. I do like shooting
fish in a barrel, though. Character flaw.
>HP >If, as the evidence would seem to indicate, you are mentally
>HP >ill, it would seem that you are very incorrect.
A>Hehe... attacks are always the easiest, eh?
An observation based on the available facts. You've admitted to seeing
godlets "materialize" in the flesh. Do you have any evidence that this
is not mental illness? There's plenty of evidence that mental illness
exists, none that godlets exist. "As the evidence would seem to
indicate, you are mentally ill".
I'm sure you accuse your doctor of attacking you when he diagnoses your
health problems, too. :-)
A>I live more of a "normal" life than most others I know.
When you aren't hallucinating, perhaps.
A>I'm balanced
You forgot the "un" prefix there.
>HP >Personal testimony is indistinguishable from lie,
>HP >hallucination or madness, often even (or especially) to
>HP >the testifier.
A>And who's to say that hallucination isn't reality of a sort?
Got any evidence, fundy? If not, you know what they say:
Bullshit believed is bullshit still.
A>It does depend on one's definition of reality
Sorry, dear, reality doesn't seem to give a shit how you define it. It
just is.
A>many others have seen and experienced similar.
Bullshit shared is bullshit still, fundy. Where's your evidence?
A>Reality can be changed and shaped.
And your utterly hysterical example is "bad memory." You and Ron should
get together; maybe you can spell-check his flood story for him.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Place apolitical/antireligious bullshit here... (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 06 Dec 93 17:38:00
--------
EID:c62e 1b868cc0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 03de7800
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a03e12
>HP >Horsefeathers. You've asked a scientific question. If
A>Asking about one's "soul" or "consciousness" is a scientific
A>question?
Asking for an explanation of what causes the phenomenon you misperceive
as "soul" is.
>HP >Then you'll happily provide us with an evidenced theory with
>HP >falsifiable predictions that explains it, right?
A>Interesting way of phrasing that. Care to write it in correctin
A>English and less complicated words? You've just managed to take up
A>an awful lot of bandwidth saying nothing .
Sorry it's above your comprehension threshhold. I'll try with smaller
words, just for you, but be aware that it'll require more words to
impart the same meaning; hope it doesn't exceed your daily requirement:
Then you'll be happy (warm, fuzzy feeling) to share with us (give to us,
provide, show to us) your statement or set of statements (a bunch of
related statements) designed to explain the phenomenon (thing)? This
statement or set of statements (theory, dear) should have some evidence
(observed facts) to back it up. This theory should make predictions (say
"if you do this, that will happen") and these predictions should be
falsifiable ("I did this, but that didn't happen").
Is that simple enough, or will you require Barney to sing it to you?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: "Go to hell." "Been there." (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Aids Kills
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:37:52
--------
EID:3a95 1b86a4a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0408a000
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e5c
SB>So you believe that if people only had sex within marriage, that AIDS
SB>would still be as easy to get?
Why are you asking this question, Steve? You've already agreed that
it's ludicrous to expect people to have sex only within marriage, and
you're further ignoring the fact that monogamous relationships exist
without the benefit of marriage.
Aren't you arguing a strawman?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Debunk xtianity? Just say Noah. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Hostility
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:39:14
--------
EID:e088 1b86a4e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0408f200
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e5d
SB>I did not say believeing in something is always good. I said it
SB>makes it believable.
Believable to whom?
My four-year-old girl believes Santa Claus is real. Is Santa Claus
believable, Steve?
You sure you want to continue this one? :-)
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: BZZZT. But thank you very much for playing. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Basis Of Belief
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:42:30
--------
EID:b6be 1b86a540
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0409b600
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e60
SB>I have explained what happened already. I prayed that God would
SB>show me the true religon. A couple of months later, I was hired by some
SB>born again Christians and it was they that first explained the Gospel
to
SB>me. Thats what happened.
Is there supposed to be something meaningful here? If you prayed for
sex and a prostitute walked up, would it constitute an answered prayer?
If you prayed for money and found a penny on the sidewalk, how about
that?
Do you expect us to believe that your experience was anything other than
a gullible person fulfilling his own wishes?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Practice safe religion: say NO. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Mormons
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:43:44
--------
EID:56cd 1b86a560
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040a0000
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa119d73
SB>Since I am more aware of my experience than I am of
SB>his, I have to take mine over his.
ROFL! Do you know a little story about five blind men who happen upon
an elephant, Steve?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: 'Tis better to rule in hell than serve in heaven. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Re: Incest
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:47:16
--------
EID:8733 1b86a5e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040ad400
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa119d78
>KB>SB>DC>And, why you are at it, please explain the biblical references
>KB>SB>DC>to incest as a means of progenation?
>KB>SB>Where does it allow it?
>KB> See Gen 19:30-38
SB>That passage is not saying that incest is acceptable. It simply is
SB>describing something that happened.
Let's see: yer god had just firebombed a city for housing homosexuals
and entombed Lot's wife alive for looking at it. Then he does nothing
at all when incest is practiced under his nose.
Sure sounds like yer god doesn't mind incest at all. When you consider
the only place the sons and daughters of yer mythological Adam could
have found sex partners, it's pretty obvious that yer god ascribes to
"incest is best."
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: No one gets outta here alive. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: True colors
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:58:06
--------
EID:f403 1b86a740
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040d5e00
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a8943e4f
FR>That's one thing the soviets have done
FR>which the United States president hasn't done yet: disband
FR>congress. Or has it been tried here?
Dunno, but I'll sign the petition.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Yer mother sews socks that smell. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Parson Larson's Cult
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:00:01
--------
EID:da42 1b86a800
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040dd100
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a8943e52
FR>Why do I have this suspicion that I don't want to hear it? What
FR>were you _doing_ this with turkey last weekend?
Hey, hey. Get your own turkey.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Jess had a halo of flies. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Watching and waiting for just the right moment!
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:07:49
--------
EID:9ec5 1b86a8e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 040fa500
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a90addb4
FR>I have sent a dozen articles on False Memory
FR>Syndrome to the moderator and she's ignored them all (of course.)
Notice our newest fundy Ariadne claims bad memory proves reality changes?
:-)
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Xtianity: crucifixion fiction. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Abortion & Christianity
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:40:38
--------
EID:8519 1b86ad00
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 04175600
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9877f0a
JC> The life-and-death decisions which modern medical science
JC>impose on us require courageous and insightful moral-decision-making
But, Jesse: you've already informed us that you can't possibly make
moral decisions on your own.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Hell is where the fundies are. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Scripture
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:43:34
--------
EID:60d5 1b86ad60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 04180600
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9877f0c
> SV> Why don't you put your scriptures aside and think for
> SV> _yourself_ once in a while?
JC> This cliched response masks the undeniable fact that
JC>evangelical atheists have _no_ traditions to cite or to inform them
JC>on their walk on this planet.
Bullshit, Jesse. It states the fact that we can think for ourselves.
We're free to choose from any and all traditions, or to go our own way
if none apply.
You, on the other hand, are not allowed to think for yourself. If it's
not in your tradition, or if your tradition is wrong, you're just squat
out of luck.
Isn't that right, Jesse?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Nothing stops a fundy. Not even common sense. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: The Amazing Circle-Jerking Jesse
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:45:45
--------
EID:4698 1b86ada0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 04188900
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9948058
> RC> Do you mean to say that there is a call for me from your god Yahweh
tha
t
> RC> I am not responsive to, or do you mean to say that Yahweh is not callin
g
> RC> me?
JC> The answer, IMO, is 'yes' to both.
Whacka whacka whacka. Stop it or you'll go blind.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Nobody loves a fundy. Least of all his godlet. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: souls and superstition
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:53:36
--------
EID:2710 1b86aea0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041a5f00
REPLY: 1:153/826 529fbd0c
>RC >any highly organized nervous systems, but we do. The one word answer:
>RC >brains.
A>So an ape is just as intelligent as we? Or a hippopotumus? Then
A>why don't they read and write? Communicate in more complex forms?
Ari,
The difference between us and them is huge amounts of long-term memory.
You may have heard the old cliche' "90% of the brain is unused." That's
the long-term memory that makes it possible for us to reason better than
the other animals. Note also that the other animals _can_ reason, it's
just that we do it better because we have a larger database.
Read Asimov's _The Human Brain_ for more details in layman's terms. Even
a fundy like yourself might be able to pick up some information from it.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Only irrelevant or nonexistent gods leave no traces. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Re: FREEMASON echo
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:59:45
--------
EID:9838 1b86af60
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041bd100
SQ>The question to Steve Winter should be: Why would your God create
SQ>someone as sorry as you are?
He's the one who got created in its image.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: If the fundies shut up, god would be speechless. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Re: Marty Leipzig's generous but doomed attempt to inform
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:09:53
--------
EID:216a 1b86b120
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041e3100
RS> Thank him for what ? What time and effort does it take to
RS>answer a question?
Oh, then answer this one:
What's the 10 millionth digit of pi, to the right of the decimal point?
Nope, the answer's not "0, like all the rest," you idiot...
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Niels was Bohring. (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Life's meaning
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:12:15
--------
EID:14a4 1b86b180
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041ebe00
REPLY: 1:135/71 a9948059
> JC> | I meant to say that you and Curry admit that life without God
> JC> | is meaningless.
> JCJ> Does your life have ultimate meaning?
> RC> I do not ascribe any sort of "ultimate meaning" to my life, no.
JC> If you want to change your answer now and tell me _what_
JC>meaning your life has, feel free to do so.
Strawman, Jesse. He didn't say his life was meaningless, as _you_ say.
He said he did not ascribe any sort of _ultimate_ meaning to his life.
Here's a hint, if you're brave enough to take it. Before asking "what
is the ultimate meaning of life," try satisfactorily answering "is there
an ultimate meaning to life?"
When you think you've got the answer, check your evidence.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Nyuk nyuk. Uncoitanly! (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 22:13:26
--------
EID:5872 1b86b1a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 041f0600
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a04206
A>I hate fundies of all stripes
Wear polka dots.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: He hears the silence howling (1:380/16)
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From: Ariadne
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Waste of Time
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:39:00
--------
EID:40e7 1b8634e0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a17138
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a79275df
FR >Anyone see any suggestion that the Pagan or Wiccan
FR >participants in this forum have ever recieved so much as a
FR >"you're a crazy fool" from the never-believers in this
FR >forum? (I've seen some "that's goatdroppings" directed
Uh, just slightly! I'm getting grilled. Why?
Allyson
---
* Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826)
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From: Ariadne
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:44:00
--------
EID:3161 1b863580
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a1725a
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a81049b5
CF >I wonder if this could be a series of hypnotic
CF >hallucinations before or after slipping into or out of
CF >sleep. A _lot_ of people think they see things.
Could be, except they've happened in broad daylight on a number of occasions¨
. Actually, I'll be honest in that, most of my experienes with¨ "God/de
ss" have happened either during ritual or meditation, when I am also in¨
an al
tered state (no, boys and girls, I don't mean drugs...). Then again,¨ you're
usually *trying* to induce "hallucinations" during ritual. Or at least¨
what
Christians and bigots would call hallucinations, anyhow . But that¨
sti
ll doesn't explain physical manifestation. I wish I *could* explain it!
;)
Allyson
---
* Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826)
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From: Ariadne
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 06 Dec 93 06:49:00
--------
EID:8ad8 1b863620
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a17378
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2cfd3857
DC >-A wiccan who claimed to have seen the spirit of a woman.
Dat's me.. . What of it?
DC >-A description of the practice of killing a chicken to
DC >release it's "life energies" in certain wiccan rituals.
No, I said that Satanists had been known (by me, at least) to use a chicken
in
¨ ritual, in paradoy or copying the Santaria ritual. I said that Wiccans
in t
he¨ past had been known to engage in sacrifice... I have no idea if it include
d a
chicken or not... ;)
DC >-At least two wiccans who believe that "something" exists
DC >out there (sentient or not) but they can't describe it, and
DC >it is beyond human comprehension.
Finish reading the messages. If you'd like an explanation of the form of
what
¨ I believe, then continue to read. If you just want to bitch, continue¨
blit
hely along.
DC >Being nice is no excuse for irrational belief. And, if I'm
DC >not mistaken, I've seen some wiccans belittling fundies for
DC >their absurd beliefs?!?
Yes, but at least we Wiccans don't go around trying to shove it down everyone
else's throats, like the Christians and athiests...
Allyson
---
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From: Ariadne
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 06 Dec 93 07:00:00
--------
EID:d059 1b863800
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a1761c
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 38208ab6
MG >I do not consider marriage a religious thing. I have no
Actually, I don't either . I consider marriage a state thing, and
then
¨ religions have their own ceremonies. It's nice when you can combine them,
s
o
as to avoid having to do things over and over again, but sometimes they
stay¨
separate. My hubby and I are Handfasted (the Wiccan "marriage" rite), but¨
we
're going to be getting legally married (tax breaks, parental-unit-cheering
-upness, etc.).
MG >understood that she did nto want any other sex partners
MG >between us. Now while I don't think that there is anything
Then that's a vow you made in full knowledge of it. It wasn't something
you¨
did either in ignorance, or in bowing to religious "rules" that you didn't¨
wi
sh to follow. That's *different*. What you choose to do is between you
and¨
your partner. Kudos for you, if that's the way you feel!
MG >basically wrong with a "family" where there are more than
MG >two sex players, my wife does. So we keep our vows....the
Uh huh... I've met several families with more than one mum or dad. They
all¨
seem to be quite normal. More normal, in fact, than most two-parent families
I've known. Perhaps it hs to do with there always being a mum or dad around¨
to help out, spend time with the kids, *listen*, share...
MG >vows we made to each other. these are a lot more importatn
MG >than any vows made to a non existant deity.
To you. I have to admit, the vows I made to David, my hubby, during our¨
Hand
fasting, are very important to me. I made my vows to him, not to the¨ Goddess
or the God. But I did ask that those vows be blessed by our version¨ of
Deit
y... For us, that worked. For others, maybe not.
MG >sure that the group is safe, more power to you. I have
MG >nothing against that. It's almost monogmaous in my book.
MG >The same results are achieved, at any rate.
True. Of the more-than-two-parent families I know, none of them feel the
need
¨ or want to "screw around" outside the family unit. On the other hand,
most
of¨ (though not all) of the two-person families I know have rather pronounced¨
"need" to screw outside the relationship. Not enough variety, perhaps.
David and I work it this way: in theory, neither of us will hold the other¨
b
ack should s/he wish to screw another person. I would also add that, in
the
three years we've been together, we've only tested that once, and nothing¨
hap
pened . We love each other very much...
Allyson
---
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--------
From: Ariadne
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 06 Dec 93 07:07:00
--------
EID:c753 1b8638e0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a177a2
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 382098c9
MG >It seems to me a bit oxymoronic that you don't agree with
MG >it, but you understand it. You don't eat meat? Why? Is it
Why's that? I understand lots of things which I don't agree with. Toe¨
fetis
hists, soem Christians, dentistry... . Doesn't seem that much of¨
an ox
ymoron to me.
MG >because you do not want to take a life to eat? You want to
MG >know the difference int he sacrifice and the butchering of
MG >an animal for food? None, I suppose. So if there is no
I don't eat meat for several reasons. First, because I find it makes me
ill¨
most of the time. Second, I dislike eating rotting substances, and meats
in¨
Canada and the US are "aged" (read: left to rot) for about 28 days before¨
the
y're *allowed* to be sold for eating. Third, because I do try not to take
other sentient life to replenish my own. They're personal reasons, and
I¨ cer
tainly don't feel the need to shove my vegetarianism on an yone else. In¨
fac
t, it really wouldn't work on an unwilling victim . You *really*¨
have
to want to not eat meat before you can do it. We're force fed it for so
many years that it's hard to get yourself detoxed! All the drugs they feed¨
c
ows and chickens go into our systems, you know!
MG >know the difference int he sacrifice and the butchering of
MG >an animal for food? None, I suppose. So if there is no
MG >difference inthese two acts, how can you "not agree, but
MG >understand it"?
Because I don't eat meat, I don't agree with the mass slaughter of innocent¨
b
ovines. But considering the immensity of the meat industry, and the¨ addictio
n to meat which North Americans suffer, I cannot help but understand¨ those
wh
o support the industry. I just wish people would know the truth about¨
how th
at steak gets to the freezer before they are allowed to eat it. Sigh...
MG >Prayer to me, is prayer, whether xtian or not. I'm an equal
MG >opportunity religion basher.
Hehe... Prayer is a form of meditation. Science has proved the benefits
of¨ m
editation several times over. It's good for the body, it's good for the¨
memo
ry, it improves long and short term recall...
MG >Liek the xtian god, I would have to see some evidence of the
MG >supernatural before I could believe in it.
No problem. I don't ask you to believe it. I used to not believe it¨ .
.. but circumstances have changed that.
Allyson
---
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--------
From: James Conwell
To: Shelby Sherman
Sub: Re: That Heat
Date: 7 Dec 93 04:30:57
--------
EID:7f9a 1b8723c0
MSGID: 1:106/7512 81eca64a
REPLY: 1:123/67 2cf8efa0
SS> The vapor canopy had weight and this weight crushed down upon the
SS> atmosphere making its volume small. As the canopy condensed and fell
SS> as
SS> rain it became lighter allowing the atmosphere to expand outward to
a
SS> multiple of 2-3 (my estimate) times its original size. The earth
SS> itself
SS> probably expanded to some degree and may have been a part of the
SS> reason
SS> for heavy tectonic and volcanic activity. This expansion was not a
SS> normal low pressure area like those today but a worldwide lowering of
SS> pressure permanently.
Any idea how much greater the atmospheric pressure was at sea level according
to this theory?
Also, have you read anything to indicate how much visible sunlight was blocked
by this giant water canopy? Was the world quite dark or what?
I have always been a fan of the water canopy theory since it so neatly explain
s how early humans could live to be hundreds of years old.
Thank you very much.
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
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--------
From: James Conwell
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: POLITE
Date: 7 Dec 93 04:45:30
--------
EID:121f 1b8725a0
MSGID: 1:106/7512 0c8230d0
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a3945b4e
FR> Nope. Everyone is born an atheist. It requires years of
FR> indoctrination to turn an otherwise healthy child into a believer in
FR> unseen superfriends.
Really? "Everyone is born an atheist"? Hmmmmmmmm..........
You claim it takes years of indoctination to change people from atheists
into
theists? Hmmmmmmm.......
Then how on earth did theism ever get started then?
If all the original humans were born atheists and noone was around to indoctri
nate them into being theists then how could they become theists?
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:26:00
--------
EID:5e03 1b86ab40
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d03ea0f
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 0124f500
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
Hello Hector!
HP> + Origin: Religion: leave home without it. (1:380/16)
Religion: Let *it* leave home, instead.
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
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From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Russian Orthodoxy
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:45:00
--------
EID:1087 0475ba90
MSGID: 1:135/71 ab0671f2
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Jesse C. Jones <=-
SB> I completely agree. I went on a short term mission during the summer
SB> and it was very difficult to leave my cultural baggage behind. It
is
SB> very easy for this sort of thing to get in the way of the preaching
of
SB> the Gospel. I hope in the future that missionaries will become more
SB> sensitive the culture in which they are working that they will be able
SB> to work with the Orthodox and other Russian churches in preaching the
SB> Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe that the missionaries will be able
SB> to learn many things from them. I know Billy Graham has benefited
SB> from communication with ROC leaders.
I admire Billy Graham greatly. He has grown so in his ministry, and has
always avoided personal gain or glory. He has labored hard and faithfully
in
Russia, and I think he has shown great sensitivity to their culture.
I was pleasantly surprised to learn recently that Graham was a strong
supporter of Dr. Martin Luther King's, and counseled him on how to organize
mass rallies and national tours.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Josh McDowell's Tests #1 of 2
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:28:26
--------
EID:7b77 1b879380
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05119a
Nov-20-93 07:36PM
NT Reliability and Josh McDowell's Tests for Historical Documents
From: agnostic@stein2.u.washington.edu (Jeff Lowder)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of the Christians I have known have been fundamentalist
Christians. They believe in a literal Resurrection of Jesus Christ and
consider New Testament Reliability central to that belief. Therefore,
I would like to examine the question of New Testament reliability. In
particular, I would like to look at Josh McDowell's three tests for
Historical Documents, apply these tests to a statement we know is
false, and then apply these tests to the Resurrection.
JOSH'S THREE TESTS
Josh McDowell has put forth three tests for historical documents.
First, the Bibliographical Test: Do the texts we have today match the
original? Second, the Internal Evidence Test: Are there any known
contradictions or inaccuracies? And finally, The External Evidence
Test: Do other historical documents confirm or deny the alleged events?
AN EXAMPLE: APPLYING THESE TESTS TO "RUSH LIMBAUGH IS GOD"
In order to see how these tests work, I thought it would be interesting
to apply these tests to a statement less controversial than "Jesus is
God".
So I would like to apply these tests to "Rush Limbaugh is God." Here
goes. My friend Jason writes a book which argues that Rush Limbaugh is
God. Prometheus Books publishes 20,000 copies, of which 15,000 manage
to survive into the year 2093. Jeff also writes a book on talk show
hosts and also says that Rush is God. Let's pretend the year is 2093
and apply Josh McDowell's tests to Jason's book.
The Bibliographical Test
Computerized publishing has greatly increased the accuracy of printed
books. All copies of Jason's books consistently say, "Rush Limbaugh is
God." Therefore, Jason's book passes the bibliographical test.
The Internal Evidence Test
Jason took courses in philosophy and wrote a logically coherent book.
His book did not contain any contradictions. Therefore, his book
passes the Internal Evidence Test.
The External Evidence Test
Jeff's book corroborates Jason's because it also says that Rush is God.
Conclusion: RUSH IS GOD!!!
Since Jason's book has passed all three of Josh McDowell's tests, we
may safely conclude that his book is historically reliable and,
therefore, Rush Limbaugh is God.
The real conclusion: McDowell's three tests are not enough.
I agree that a book which fails any of McDowell's three tests cannot be
considered historically reliable. However, as the preceding example
showed, his three tests are not enough. Any story which is logically
consistent will pass all three of his tests.
APPLYING MCDOWELL'S TESTS TO "JESUS CHRIST IS GOD"
1. The Bibliographical Test
a) Mark's conclusion is known as the Spurious Addendum. If
there is one thing all sides can agree on, it is that Mark 16:9-20 was
added to the original manuscript by someone other than the original
author. Remember that Mark 16:9-20 contains the only post-Resurrection
appearances in the Gospel according to Mark. This is important because
Mark's gospel is the oldest of the four gospels, meaning that the
oldest manuscripts contain no stories of a Resurrected Christ.
b) John's Epilogue was added on by another author.
Chapter 21 of John is known to New Testament scholars as the
"Epilogue" of John, added later on by someone eager to prove that Jesus
was widely seen after the Resurrection.
2. The Internal Evidence Test
a) None of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses.
Luke and Mark do not ever claim the authority of being apostles.
Matthew could not have been an eyewitness because he relies too much on
Mark and contains "none of the independent witnessing or memoirs which
a close disciple could have contributed".
b) Luke's Gospel incorrectly describes Quirinius and
KingHerod as contemporaries.
Luke's Gospel incorrectly assumes they were contemporaries. However,
as historian Robin Lane Fox points out, "It is not just that Herod the
Great never coincided with Quirinius the governor: he never coincided
with a Roman taxing of Judea."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Josh McDowell's Tests #1 of 2
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:29:14
--------
EID:7b77 1b8793a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0511ca
Nov-20-93 07:36PM
NT Reliability and Josh McDowell's Tests for Historical Documents
From: agnostic@stein2.u.washington.edu (Jeff Lowder)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
c) Augustus never issued a decree to census and tax the
whole world.
Fox again: "It is even doubtful if the Emperor Augustus ever issued a
decree to Rome's provinces that `all the world should be taxed.'"
Augustus certainly never ordered the entire world to return to their
home cities for a census.
d) Luke's and Matthew's genealogies of Jesus do not match.
3. The External Evidence Test
a) The Gnostic Gospels argue that Jesus never existed in
theflesh.
b) All Jewish documents are perfectly consistent in saying
that Jesus was stoned to death and hanged on a tree.
c) The Massacre of the Innocents is not a historical
event.
This "historical event" in Matthew is not mentioned by any of the other
gospel writers, nor by Jospehus, who was a sworn enemy of Herod and
recorded every evil act he ever committed.
4. Conclusion: Available evidence does not prove the Resurrection
of Christ.
What do you say the next time a fundamentalist Christian tells
you that Josh McDowell has written a book proving Jesus was
resurrected? You tell them that Josh's tests are not sufficient to
prove the reliability of historical documents. And you tell them that
the New Testament fails even the three tests which McDowell gave.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Lowder
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Ariadne
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:29:36
--------
EID:1838 1b8793a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0511e0
with: Martin Goldberg
>MG> Marriage means monogamy. Wouldn't that do just as well?
A> In YOUR religion, maybe! Heck, I wouldn't tie myself down
A> to one person ever... That's not the type of promise I'd
A> make. Marriage can be a wonderful thing for three or even
A> more. Allyson
For what little it's worth, I agree 100%! It used to be called
"Complex Marriage" by the Oneida community. If large marriages
were the norm, I highly suspect that domestic violence would
vanish utterly, and violence in general would be greatly reduced.
Even repulsively ugly men like me could probably be married, as
the women would not feel required to sleep with us. I've thought
about this for a long time, and the more I do the more I like
the idea. The irrational, senseless marriage laws we have should
be utterly abandoned.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Aaron Boyden
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:29:48
--------
EID:5ad6 1b8793a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0511ec
> I think that World War Two was the only war that America was
> justified in fighting.
AB> And we wouldn't have had to fight that one, were it not for
AB> our unjustified involvement in the first world war.
There are some things worth killing for and dying for. George Bush
believes these things are oil, money, and military bases in forein
lands.
It's true that America was strangling Japan economically and
militarily (dictating the allowable size of Japan's military, if I
recall my high-school history class correctly). I really hate to
admit it, but I think that America's involvement in WWII was the
only way to prevent even greater death and destruction later on,
with North America hosting the war, and not Europe. In other words,
a little preventative butchery and genocide.
I wonder why America joined the First World War? (The "war to end
all wars.") America was also in an undeclared war with China (if
I recall my Steve McQueen movies correctly. *grin!*).
As far as I know, Americans on their home turf have only been
attacked five times. The war of Independance, the Spanish/American
war, Pearl Harbor, Elwood California, and aboard the Nemitz when
she was anchored here and Muslim members of the crew thought it was
their duty to turn on their shipmates during Bush's Oil War.
There has been other attacks, that would not have occured if America
had been minding its own business. Instead of defending ourselves,
we have always been on the offensive, killing "them" before they can
kill us. (Gee, we sound a lot like the Soviet Union.) Russian had an
excuse--- it's impossible to defend, so attacking first is the only
alternative. America has no other excuse except monitary gain. We
didn't want many nations to fall into the dreaded hands of the people
who lived in them and called those nations "home."
Still, it's one of the best nations to live in. I see this changing
fast, though. Last poll I saw, Americans wanted the USA out of
Somalia. The Somalians want the USA out of Somalia. But we want
their deep-water ports for oil tankers.
America loaned Somalia the money to build deep-water ports for oil
tankers. To repay the money, Somalia sold tobacco to American
interests which later sold it to Eastern nations. This caused the
price of tobacco to drop, so tobacco farmers in America were given
a government subsidy. Twenty years later Somalia is growing too much
tobacco and not enough food, and then a drout hits. America waits
until the drout IS OVER and starvation is much less than it was, and
sends troops into the nation, which promptly shoot school busses and
old men on bicycle. Aphganistan all over again.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Miscellaneous
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:30:16
--------
EID:fc5f 1b8793c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051208
with: Amy Anderson-Coffin
>>HP> Hyphen-Jones appeared to be counting under his breath. "Well,
>>HP> I'll be buggered," the Major murmured... --David Langford
>AA>Is this the Langford I'm thinking of?
HPO> You must have me confused with Uri Geller. I don't read minds.
But then, neither does Uri Geller.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: "Ringworld"
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:30:26
--------
EID:bce1 1b8793c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051212
with: Fredric Rice
JV> BTW, do you know of anything Niven's written in Known Space
JV> since that book? The way he left the Hindmost, Chmeee and
JV> Louis Wu on the Ringworld like that has given me a coitus
JV> interruptus kind of feeling. I hate cliffhangers, especially
JV> when they've been left hanging for years with no indication
JV> whether they will be taken up again....
JV>
JV> Worse than anticipation. Yaknowhuttimean?
The way I'd write the third book:
Nexus would continue to build ramjets and mount them, to keep the
Ringworld centered. He'd also get the internal machinery going,
such as the Spill Mountains, patching vacuum holes, power stations
on the Shadow Squares, and complete the Rim transportation system.
After all, the health and well-being of Ringworld is required to
keep -HIM- alive.
Chmeee goes back to the Katzn Map where his children are, and he
and his kids move to the conqured Map of Earth.
Louis Wu starts out on foot to traverse from one rim to the other,
spreading knowledge and information wherever he goes, spending a
year or two in each location before moving on to the next.
One day, say 100 years later, Louis Wu is sitting in a garden
teaching his students, when a probe from Nexus drops out of the sky.
The three had not talked to each other for that span of time, but
Nexus, being wont to know where his potential enemys are, kept track
of both Louis and Chmeee. Nexus tells Louis the news: he has spotted
a fleet of Ringworld Ramjets heading their way.
Louis goes with the probe and picks up Chmeee. Together they unite
with Nexus, and meet the arival of the Ramjet fleet.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Keith Rockhold
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:30:46
--------
EID:f6ae 1b8793c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051226
DR> supported invasions of Cuba and Grenada. We used the atom bomb on
DR> two civilian cities, killing 70,000 out-right and thousands later
DR> with disease and burns.
DR>
DR> I think that World War Two was the only war that America was
DR> justified in fighting.
KR> Ok, I have a problem, why bring up the US dropping tha atom bomb
KR> on Japan if you think we were justified in fighting it?
Er, because it was wrong.
KR> Total war means that you do every thing you can in order to win
KR> that war including the killing of civilians.
Conventional bombs could have destroyed the target (ball-bearing
factories). No need to take tens of thousands of people out with it.
The intent was to demoralize the fighters by destroying their
families at home (same as America does today).
KR> In total war there are no civilians and most assuredly in 1945
KR> Japan there WERE NO CIVILIANS.
So a two-year-old child is a combatent?
KR> Everyone was ready to fight and die for the emporer of Japan we
KR> were saving the lives of MILLIONS of american soldiers and
KR> Japanese soldiers and civilians by dropping the bomb and bringing
KR> the war to a speedy coclusion.
No. The war had been won by June. Japan's navy and army was broken.
Japan was petitioning for cease-fire (though not surrender). You've
bought into the lie that killing almost 100,000 (eventually, counting
radiation-related disease) somehow "saved millions." The deaths of
those nuked were old men, women, and children--- very brave of the
USA to butcher them by melting the flesh from their bones at thirty-
thousand feet.
KR> My country has done alot of aweful things over the years but you
KR> WILL NOT list that among them. Keith Rockhold
I did. I do. I will. If you are man enough to make me stop, by all
means have at. 9500 Jeronimo Road, Irvine, California, 92677. I'll
be looking forward to your visit.
"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of
fear -- kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic
fervor -- with the cry of grave national emergency...
Always there has been some terrible evil to gobble us
up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing
the exorbitant sums demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these
disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to
have been quite real."
-- General Douglas MacArthur, 1957
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:31:14
--------
EID:c1c9 1b8793e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051242
MG>> Abstance is fine, but absolute monogamy does just as well.
MB> And it's one helluva lot more fun!
MG> Sure it is. It's safe sex with a partner of your choosing.
MG> You learn the likes and dislikes of the other. You needn't
MG> have to go out every night to expensive bars, either. But
MG> this distracts fromt he fact that the fundies would love
MG> abstinance to be the law of the land. Fact is, I can't see
MG> anything that would make adults refrain from sex. Nor should
MG> there be.
Try being repulsively ugly. Instead of choosing celebacy, it
chooses you.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Biker Bitches
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:31:26
--------
EID:5f25 1b8793e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05124e
Some asshole posted some disgusting pornography related to
copulation and murder, complete with graphic butchery with
a knife. I would like to see this particular someone
corrected as to what is appropreate here. While I am all
for "pornography" in the sexual content and within context,
brutal, violent murder should not be allowed--- as it was,
the graphic depiction of brutality was mixed WITH sexuality,
which is not only mentally and emotionally damaging to the
psyche, but a violation of everything that is decient and
good in sexuality, turing it into shit and vomit.
You are the lawgiver and the enforcer here. I not so humbly
petition you to check into this.
Thank you! Goddess bless.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Thanksgiving Gruntings
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:31:38
--------
EID:3763 1b8793e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05125a
with: Jesse C. Jones
JC> You secularists (thank who for what?) are missing the joy of
JC> thankfulness. of gratefulness, of grace itself. I hope each of
JC> you at least enjoyed your turkey. Thanks be to God[sic]!
SB> Amen brother!
Did you cum, too?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:31:48
--------
EID:c32e 1b8793e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051264
with: Fredric Rice
FR>FR>> Scientific method has killed your deities.
FR>FR> God is dead, Steve. Science has killed it.
SB> Thanks for reposting. The above comments strongly suggest
SB> that you are saying science disproves the existence of God[sic].
SB> Earlier, people demanded that I give an example of someone
SB> saying that science has disproved the existence of God[sic].
SB> Thanks for doing the work for me.
And I hereby apologize to you, Steve, for saying you were lying.
I missed the above messages from Fredric that implies that science
has "disproven" god. [Though he said "killed it," not disproven.]
Science cannot prove gods do not exist--- maybe Fredric meant that
science has demonstrated that there is no need to invoke gods as
explanations for the observable: that's death to any idea. Instead
of me second-guessing what he ment, I suppose I could ask him. :-)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: "god's Love"
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:06
--------
EID:c66e 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051276
DR> And this child was most likely a moslem. He was not babtized
DR> a Christian, and since Jesus Christ said that no one can achieve
DR> the kingdom of heaven except through him, then this child is
DR> now burning for ever in the flames of eternal torture and
DR> damnation.
SB> God only demands judgement for those that were able to make a
SB> decision. If this child was only two, he could not have decided
SB> what his relationship with God[sic] would be. I do not believe
SB> that God[sic] will punish him for that.
You're second-guessing god. It is interesting that you believe you
can have it both ways: when presented with a tough question that
makes god look immoral and evil, you have an easy out by saying in
effect that we humans cannot know the mind of god. Yet if a query
can be answered in a positive light, you suddenly know god's mind.
Let's play "Let's Assume," shall we? If I may, I'll set up the
assumptions and then posit a theory.
Assumption: despite the fact that there is no evidence of a god,
let's assume it exists.
Assumption: despite the fact that there is no evidence of a god
speaking its mind to us, let's assume it has. Let us further
assume that this communication ended up in your favorate version
of the latest revision of the latest translation of the bible.
Assumption: despite the fact that there is no evidence of hell,
let's assume god says it exists and that he will ship us all off
to it if we do not toe the line.
Given these assumptions, I now posit a theory. I theorize that for
every bible verse that states that one need not know and accept
Jesus as a savior, there is another bible verse that does not. I
have a copy of the King James revision right here on my computer
disk, so I may check to see if you are playing fair.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:26
--------
EID:5380 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05128a
with: Fredric Rice
>sb> Yes that is what I was suggesting. Also, the description
>sb> Luke gives suggests that she had not had sex.
FR> Read it again. It says that she didn't know who the father was.
SB> Sorry, but "knew not a man" means she did not have sex.
Goddess, Steve, he was trying to be funny! [And I stress the word
"trying." :-) ]
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:36
--------
EID:53b5 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d051294
with: Martin Goldberg
MG> Abstance is fine, but absolute monogamy does just as well.
SB> Agreed. The only difference of opinion on this one that we
SB> might have is the role of marriage. But for the purposes of
SB> this discussion you are right.
If I married twenty women who didn't have the HIV virus, and we
all remained faithful, that would also be just as safe as abstance
or monogamy.
And the more I think about it, the better I like the idea. . . .
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Demon Barney
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:48
--------
EID:a5c2 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512a0
>SQ>DB> From the November 26 Chicago Tribune:
>SQ>DB>
>SQ>DB> Barney a demon?
>SQ>DB>
>SQ>DB> [cuts] Rev. Joseph Chambers says ... "Barney is teaching kids
>SQ>DB> that we must accept everyone as they are--- whether they're
>SQ>DB> homosexuals or lesbians."
Homosexuals -OR- lesbians?!
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:32:58
--------
EID:1148 1b879400
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512aa
DR> One of the shells fell on a ranch and failed to explode--- the
DR> rancher dug it up and sent it to the War Department, who sent
DR> it back a few years later.
SQ> -Sent it back-?
Oops! I meant sent it back to the rancher who dug up the
shell, not back to Japan from whence it originated. :-) Or to the
sub that delivered it.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Suzy Rosenhan
Sub: You need God [like a hole in the head]
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:33:06
--------
EID:85f7 1b879420
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512b2
with: Jesse C. Jones
>JCJ> Good luck with your marriage. It sounds like you'll need it.
>JCJ> BTW, do you share your posts here with your fiance?
SR> [some cuts. Sorry! Needed the space] I have to give Steve a lot
SR> of credit over other men I have known. He has accepted me
SR> despite the fact that I don't have a perfect body. Where other
SR> men would shy away from me because I have several scars from
SR> heart surgery, Steve has been very loving to me and makes me
SR> feel like I'm beautiful. He cares about what I have on the
SR> inside. He has enough depth to know that there is much more
SR> to a woman than a good fuck.
That's true--- there is also cooking and cleaning.
SR> He may not be a Christian but he has a much better attitude
SR> towards me as a woman than most of the Christian men I have
SR> known.
I was often HORRIFIED at the way the Mormon church treats women,
within the church as well as women outside the church. It seemed
like a club for men, where women were provided as servants. I've
never been a Mormon, though as a child I was forced to attend.
>JCJ> Admitting that you do not understand what love is is a step in
>JCJ> the right direction. Try meditating on the question for awhile.
Goddess! Jesse, of all people, handing out advice on love!
SR> I find your comments about "love" to be interesting. I may not
SR> be a true Christian although I haven't quite decided on that
SR> totally at this point, but I do know what true love is. Love is
SR> when you are willing to sacrifice your own needs for the needs
SR> of someone else because it feels good to see them happy. Because
SR> you get so much joy from this, the sacrifice doesn't really feel
SR> like a sacrifice at all. Love is when you keep an open mind and
SR> try to see the other person's point of view instead of ridiculing
SR> them. Love is patience and it definitely takes alot of patience
SR> to be successful in a relationship. Love is when two people can
SR> share everything. Love is when you enjoy each other's company.
SR> Love is also sometimes unexplainable. You don't know why you feel
SR> it but it's there and you can't deny it.
Ah, you -are- beautiful. I greatly envy Steve.
Love is not being able to sleep until the one you love is home safe.
At times it can be a mental illness. ;-)
>JCJ> Religious faith is more about questions than it is about answers
SR> I don't agree with that comment. I find that the religion I was
SR> raised in tended to discourage questions.
Religious faith leaves most questions unanswered. Doubt is seen as a
tool of "the devil." Unanswered questions SHOULD lead to doubt. My
observation is that the Christian faiths make unanswered questions a
positive trait, and not the negative trait that it is.
>>SQ> I am thankful for having a reasonably well-behaved family.
>JCJ> I'm sure they relish your approval.
SR> Steve has a point, Jesse. My Christian family has been
SR> "embarrassingly" horrible to him. I don't think it's him that
SR> they hate but the fact that he doesn't belong to their faith.
SR> They don't care that he makes me happy and treats me well. They
SR> have chosen to be disapprove of him without even getting to know
SR> him. I personally believe that my father would enjoy Steve's
SR> company a great deal but he's afraid to get to know him because
SR> of the difference in religious beliefs. I want to know why my
SR> family has the right to feel justified in treating Steve like
SR> an outsider when they claim to be Christians. Suzy
"If you don't believe in Santa Claus, I'm not gonna play with you!"
Human behavior still surprises me now and then.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Quotes
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:33:48
--------
EID:a89f 1b879420
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512dc
"Freedom of speech means that you shall not do something to people
either for the views they have, or the views they express, or the
words they speak or write." -- Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black (1963)
"If all mankind, minus one, were of one opinion, and only
one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be
no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he
had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
-- John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_ (1859)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Strickland
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: PILTDOWN MAN
Date: 06 Dec 93 20:39:40
--------
EID:3eb9 1b86a4e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05151b
Fredric Rice Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: PILTDOWN MAN
>> de Chardin, though a Jesuit, was hardly a
>> model that Christians try to emulate!
FR> Except that they did at the Poluxie(sp) man tracks in Texas.
ds> Paluxy River. Been there numerous times.
FR> What's the set up? (Pun intended.) I mean, can anyone stop by and
FR> take a look at the creationist hoax? Is the site controlle by
FR> creationists who then pass out creationist nonsense on paper?
FR> prime examples of creationist's attempting to hoax the better educated
FR> yet being successful only among the already-believer.
You can if you know where to look, I personally never cared worth a rats
ass
as to what the "human" tracks look like. But no, they don't have a stand
setup to give out creationist shit. The actual part of the river that has
the dinosaur tracks are is within a State Park, to really see them you have
to be standing on the rather steep bank. The best tracks where "removed"
from
the river and a model of them is on display in the Park Headquarters.
ds> Can remember when the hoax(s) occurred,
ds> every last one has been disproven.
FR> I don't recall when it was done either. I recall seeing photographs
FR> -- black and white -- of people walking along with hand-held boxes
FR> with glass set at the bottom so that they could see the dinosaur
FR> tracks under water and at that time, no creationist had claimed that
FR> there were human tracks mixed in with them and no one had altered the
FR> tracks after the river was diverted and dried. That was some time ago.
ds> Yet nobody seems to know that its been dis proven, the media
ds> goes nuts over the fact the "human tracks" have been discovered
ds> in the Paluxy river bed along side dinosaur tracks, yet when
ds> its been found to be a lie, you never hear anything about that,
ds> thus many people still believe it.
FR> It's always the way. Witness the "Noah flood" and the sound debunking
FR> every claim has recieved to date. And yet some people still must
FR> believe reguardless of the facts.
FR> Lovely thing, wishful thinking. It can be a tool to motivate great
FR> works and it can also keep ones feet stuck in the mud of astounding
FR> ignorance and superstition.
Unfortunately the wishfull thinking can be a good thing, and at other times
can be a curse (most of the time with superstitions).
Straightened out my brother about the Noahs Ark hoax, and he for one didn't
violently deny that the "flood" was really a large Local flood, and after
further discussion agreed that Noah's Ark and the whole flood story was
mostly a folk tale passed down generations (and having been done was
changed) of that one specific flood. Mom, Dad, and Sister still believe
that the flood really happened (Dad even believes the Vapor Canopy shit).
David
... Fundies -- can't shoot 'em....pass the beer nuts. (Fredric Rice)
---
ž TLX v3.20 ž
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: David Strickland
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: PILTDOWN MAN
Date: 07 Dec 93 14:25:37
--------
EID:aaef 1b877320
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d05151d
Steve Quarrella Spoke These Fine Words of Wisdom To: David Strickland
About: PILTDOWN MAN
SQ>
SQ> Hwaet, David!
SQ>
SQ> 4 Dec 93, dixit David Strickland ad Steve Quarrella:
DS> Yep. My brother watched the Ark story on CBS, a believed every
DS> damn word of it [and I do remember him going on about some guy
DS> who found it].
SQ>
SQ> What does he say now that the Ark thing has been exposed as a hoax?
Nothing, he got quite pretty quick after I leveled the fatal blow. I'm
trying to slowly work him away from xtianity, this is one step in the
right direction. 1 small step for man, 1 giant leap for mankind.
David
... To hell with the Prime Directive! FIRE!!!!!
---
ž TLX v3.20 ž
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: All
Sub: Shut Up
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:23:40
--------
EID:8ecd 1b87a2e0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d04e666
=============================================================================
* Forwarded by Steve Quarrella (1:124/9005)
* Area : ECHO_REQ (ECHO_REQ)
* From : Rick Kingcade, 1:280/22 (Martis dies December 07 1993 01:28)
* To : John Passaniti
* Subj : Shut Up
=============================================================================
Hello John:
03 Dec 93, John Passaniti writes to all:
JP> Steve Winter started it. Michael Walsh continued. Then, just
for
JP> fun, Aaraon Goldblatt decided to jump in. Now, I'm ending it. Anyone
JP> engaging Steve will be given one warning. Neat huh?
Why is it that we have to continue to put up with his B.S. in an echo that
is
supposed to be reserved for announcements of new echos? If _anybody_ other
th
an SW were proferring this crap, you guys would be booting him outta here.
See
ms that if one throws around the bible, there is no limit to what he is
allowe
d to hit with it, whether his aim is good or not...
Rick
-+- GoldED 2.40
+ Origin: KC Central BBS [Raytown, MO] (1:280/22)
=============================================================================
Salue, All!
Thought this might be of interest for those who keep up on Steve Winter's
zany
antics.
--- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Waste of Time
Date: 07 Dec 93 20:30:34
--------
EID:881c 1b87a3c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d04e862
REPLY: 1:124/9005 1854a7fb
Salue, Jesse!
SQ> Hear the word of God: "For all who do evil hate the light and
do no
t
SQ> come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those
who
Hear ye the word of Shakespeare, which applies to many of these rants of
yours
:
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
--Macbeth
--- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Back to school with you
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:16:58
--------
EID:4046 1b878a00
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
4 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> That's a good one. A first in this forum? Well, as Steve
FR> pointed out, if one believes one silly, illogical, irrational
FR> bit of nonsense, one will believe just about anything. Virgin
FR> births and game boards being evil are equally silly.
Further proof of Barnum's Law. It's hilarious, isn't it?
... Beware of Quantum ducks (Quark!Quark!Quark!)
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: previous discuss on evolution
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:18:22
--------
EID:61e5 1b878a40
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
4 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
s>>> What about Her word?
FR>> Star Goat is _not_ a 'Her!'
sq>> But Dopefish is...when he feels like it.
FR> Does He walk up and down in front of the mirror looking at
FR> Himself?
Again, when he feels like it. :)
... Polls show that 8 out of 5 schizophrenics agree!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: You're all going to hell.
Date: 07 Dec 93 17:15:06
--------
EID:c206 1b8789e0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
3 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
sq>>> They feign moral indignation, get off a
sq>>> little flame, and then vanish completely.
FR>> Yep. No courage of their convictions, huh?
Not many, although I have to give Jesse SOME credit (although I still
think he's a Manson waiting to happen if his Bible is the only thing
that makes him behave).
FR> Oh I think they believe well enough... I just don't think they
FR> can stand to look at their beliefs too closely else they'll be
FR> forced to admit something to themselves about the reality of
FR> their deities -- something unpleasant. The very real
And although you don't like to talk about it, there's that GOD$LOVE.GIF
peering over their shoulders, asking to be heard.
FR> acknowledge by reading Hitlers' own words. One doesn't become
FR> a Good Boy just because they adopt a deity belief.
-Important point-.
FR> same. This one couldn't. Jesse makes it a "blasphemy."
Naturally. It would be a crime in any church to lift the curtain on
the church and say "See? Here's how it's REALLY done."
sq>> What kind of "faith" is that?
sq>> Faith in the gullibility of other human beings?
FR> Bingo. I think you found what it is, exactly, they have faith in.
I have faith in the gullibility of other human beings. I bet you do to
(Uh oh, dragging Fred into my lunacies!). What makes us like-minded people
different, then?
FR> combined forces of the believer. It's very possible that, if
FR> many of the participants here were to be as caustic in local
FR> forums towards our darkened brothers and sisters, we would have
FR> been called to tasks for it and suffered connection losses.
If we would do it on the local -level-, meaning "When Fundy comes to the
door, a group of people all holler 'Suprise!'". :)
FR> Not long ago we experienced a short sequence of events. First
FR> off, we found that the acknowledgement that Roberts Ciya is
FR> equal among all deities is a "blasphemy" to consider or answer
Wait till Jesse and I get started with Dopefish. He'll find that he
can 'blaspheme' with the best of 'em.
... You, in the red uniform: Wander out that way a little bit.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Mr. and Mrs. Ippi
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:22:46
--------
EID:1234 1b8732c0
Hector Plasmic, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Don Martin:
> >> DM> River? So's yer Old Man.
> > ML> Looks like someone's in over their head; and it ain't just in
> > ML> denial.
> > DM> Mekong waves, are you?
> ML> I just Congo on...I don't Kara, Sea?
DM> It sounds as if you're goin' Yalu on me.
> > DM> For my part, I shall flow all quiet.
> ML> You, the eternal littoralist.
DM> So saith the deposition . . .
HP> Oh, hell, here we go again. I've known you two for years, but still
HP> don't know how to turn the punning off once it gets started. Japan
HP> and Japan and I Kontiki any more.
So Sari. We didn't mean to Hanoi you.
Well, Oswego again.
When all this starts, I simply cannot Taraway. I guess everyone
on the sidelines gets a Minnedosa this stuff. No Moa. I'll
Czech Maitome and make sure it only goes to Herr Martin.
Mesabi? Bichir ¸s.
You savvy?
... Ketchum? Hell, I can't even find 'em.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: James Conwell
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:24:02
--------
EID:d798 1b873300
James Conwell, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Stewart
Harris
:
SH> try for you, will be able to duplicate it.
JC> Well, I for one am *very* interested in your experiment or proof.
JC> I am a true scientist.
Which field, may I ask?
JC> I admit that I don't know if the "theory of evolution" is basically
JC> correct or not. I have examined much evidence which strongly suggests
JC> that it is not.
Such as? I've been involved in science (specifically geology,
paleontology and paleozoology, to name but a few) for 20 years and
have yet to see any, much less "...much evidence which strongly
suggests..." evolutionary theory [Question: Which theory of
evolution?] is incorrect.
JC> I have also examined evidence which suggests that it
JC> is. I would like to know if it is true or not but then again I really
JC> don't care if it is or not.
Rather unscientific viewpoint, IMNSHO.
... And to think, he's the product of 3,800,000,000 years of evolution.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Robert Curry
Sub: The positive square root of negative 1.
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:46:06
--------
EID:9041 1b873dc0
Robert Curry, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Fredric Rice:
RC> On (03 Dec 93) Fredric Rice wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> I would ask how you tell the difference between a coincidence
RC> and whatever it is you mean by an "answer to prayer."
RC> What is it that distinguishes one from the other?
FR> You have a nasty habit of asking pointed questions, Bulldog.
RC>
RC> I like to be able to tell things apart. Sometimes it is difficult,
RC> though. For instance, how does one distinguish (in the context of
RC> the complex field) the two square roots of -1?
i know! i know!
... Mathematicians practice absolute freedom.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Don Martin
Sub: Modern history and modern historians
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:43:48
--------
EID:a127 1b873d60
Don Martin, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig:
DM> A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception --
DM> Modern history and modern -- with Don Martin on 03 Dec 93 11:23:
> JCJ> I did study the Roman Empire in a freshman Western Civilization
> JCJ> class;
ML> Would it be cruel here to wonder if Jesse received an "A+" for
ML> this magnum opus?
DM> Thesis, dammit! That's a THESIS!
"Feces" is probably a more apt description.
... As goatherd learns by goat, so a writer learns by wrote.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: David Rice
Sub: Purina Russian Chow (makes it's own gravy)
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:44:17
--------
EID:c180 1b873d80
David Rice, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig:
ML> But, yes, Russian chow ("Russian chow"...that's like saying
ML> "American food". Damn, there are so many different types by
ML> region and ethnic group that generalizations pale...) is very
ML> good. Quite simple usually (I really got tired of smoked
ML> salmon, smoked sturgeon and beluga caviar on my last trip
ML> over).
DR>
DR> Ah, fish that will die for a good fuck,
Fish that not only taste good but have good taste as well!
DR> another fish that sucks
DR> worms off the bottom, and unborn zygotes that even Randal Terry
DR> would not touch with a stick. I think I'll stay home and eat my
DR> tofu and avacado sandwich.
After which, you'll wash it down with a tall, frosty glass of
2,2,4,6 Diethylmethylselenomercaptan?
ML> I will agree that kartoufsop is excellent.
ML> I grew quite fond of what we euphemistically called "Mongolian
ML> Knots (or "Potstickers", depending on your tastes). They were
ML> like raviolis (meat filled pastry) in a thick onion, beet and
ML> cabbage broth. With sour cream, of course. They eat EVERYTHING
ML> with sour cream. Hell, if they could, they'd put sour cream on
ML> the air they breathe.
DR>
DR> Take the meat out
No out-of-context comments here.
DR> and it sounds great! Except for the sour cream.
DR> I guess that it's cheeper to let it go sour than to refridgerate
DR> it.
Yeah. But why the expiration date on the side of the carton?
ML> But, I digress.
DR>
DR> I digest.
Without animal protein, with distress.
ML> On my last trip, I ended up in Uzbekistan (heavy oriental,
[deleted for hilarity's sake]
ML> furtive voice..."Jim, I don't give a damn if it scotches the
ML> whole damn deal; but I ain't eating no sheep dick".
ML>
ML> My fears proved unwarranted. It was only the tongue of the
ML> beast.
ML>
ML> What a business...
DR>
DR> You risked an international incident and resultant nuclear holocaust
DR> over a little lunch?!
Uzbekistan has no nukes. They do have this strange dietary
proclivity of relishing great, grilled slabs of snow-white
animal fat.
Pass the Russkaya...
DR>If your lunch didn't turn you vegetarian,
DR> nothing will.
You're right. Nothing will.
DR> It reminds me of two nuns who went out into the world after being
DR> locked up in the nunnery for twenty years. They stumble across a
DR> hotdog stand and they each get a hotdog. One nun says to the other,
DR> "Oh dear. . . . What part of the dog did you get?"
Keep this up and I'll tell you of the nomadic Mongolian feast
I was feted at back a year or so ago. It started with fish and
ended up with camel. All in view of the Flaming Cliffs of the
Bayn Dzak.
Yours truly negatively excrements you.
... Homo-fundiculi: A virus on the hard-drive of life.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: David Rice
Sub: Turkey lurkings.
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:47:58
--------
EID:4cef 1b873de0
David Rice, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig:
>>ML> Can we say "Praise the Lord and pass the Pterosaur"?
>DR> Any bigger and he'd be eatting -YOU- for Thanksgiving.
ML> Damn thing was huge. Fed bunches and batches.
DR>
DR> Too bad we exterminated the Moa.
Alas, no moa...
ML> Aside: I'm carving this condor and doling out gobs of cranberry
ML> sauce and dressing when some local minister or other fundyized
ML> meatball comes wandering through with the local independent TV
ML> station in tow. He's blathering on and on about the "Christian
ML> generosity" being displayed here. "Funny" I thought, "I don't
ML> see any inquisitions going on..." But he's swaying and
ML> brashaying through the throng generally making a pompous ass of
ML> himself. He finally gets over by me and says (and I quote)
ML> "Isn't it a miracle that God provided this bounty for us to
ML> help the less fortunate!"
ML>
ML> I replied, as I shoveled the 100'th or so plate of chow over,
ML> "Wouldn't it be more of a miracle if God would have provided
ML> jobs for these folks in the first place instead?"
ML>
ML> Funny. I wasn't on TV that night...
DR>
DR> Wasn't god that collected the money, bought the bird, baked it,
DR> and served it. If I had been you, Marty, I'd have been damn bloody
DR> well pissed at such arrogant bullshit. Cook -HIM- but good.
Like swatting a mosquito with a cruise missile. He was making
enough of a fool out of himself without anyone's help.
DR> We had yet another fire here, losing twenty houses. No one was killed
DR> but one firefighter was injured. One man, standing in his nightgown
DR> and clutching a cat, said "Thank god my house was spared!" If only a
DR> firefighter would have popped that asshole one in the mouth. . . .
He'd be justified.
DR> Thanks should go to the good, fine people such as yourself, and these
DR> firefighters, and tens of thousands of other folks who put their time
DR> and efforts towards helping other people out. No god has ever done as
DR> much as a single human handing out sandwiches.
I do it out of a spirit of genuine altruism. These characters
need help, and I'm in such a position to help them. I don't do
it for cosmic brownie points with some illusory deity. I do it
because I want to and I can. Years ago, I came perilously close
to the same situation as a lot of these folks. I can empathize,
so I help.
DR> As an aside, a plumber accidently started the fire with his soldering
DR> iron. He was sobbing and inconsolable, telling all the people how
DR> sorry he was. A fighfighter put his arm around him, hugged him, and
DR> told him that it was okay--- he didn't mean to start the fire. There
DR> are no words I could say to express how much I honor and respect that
DR> firefighter. They are truely the last of a great breed; our last
DR> heros. Then to have some asshole thank "GOD" instead. . . . shit!
Exactly. I just go slightly crackers when some airliner
pancakes into a batch of row houses and some dimwit newsie
proudly proclaims "It's a miracle that only 125 people were
incinerated!"
Grrr.....
... If we weren't all crazy, we would all go insane.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Ariadne
Sub: Happy Thanksgiving...
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:53:51
--------
EID:d944 1b8736a0
Ariadne, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Martin Goldberg:
MG >I don't prey. Waste of time.
Ar> Ahh... but do you prAy?
See previous answer.
... "Hands that help are better than lips that pray."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Ariadne
Sub: souls and superstition
Date: 07 Dec 93 06:58:58
--------
EID:4534 1b873740
Ariadne, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Robert Curry:
RC >So we're talking _sentience_ rather than _life_? OK,
Ar> I was talking about sentience originally, if you remember rightly.
Ar> Life can be found in many forms. But sentience and intellect cannot.
RC >any highly
RC >organized nervous systems, but we do. The one word answer:
RC >brains.
Ar> So an ape is just as intelligent as we? Or a hippopotumus? Then why
Ar> don't they read and write? Communicate in more complex forms?
Some animals communicate in forms that are incredibly complex.
The lowly bat uses echolocation to communicate between itself,
its comrades and its prey. Certain South American fish
distinguish prey and potential mates by the slightest
perturbations of its internally generated electrical field.
What of bees (genus _Apis_) and their dances? How about cetaceans
and their underwater ultrasonics?
Yep. Animals do communicate in exquisitely complex forms.
Ar> I've heard many the scientist refer to that thing which keeps us alive
Ar> and living as we do, as "soul." Since it's a (so far) indescribable
Ar> thing, what matters the word we use?
If a scientist went on about a "soul", he was speaking personal
opinion and was well removed from the arena of science.
Ar> Okay, but fish have brains, as do birds, rhinos, polar bears... I
Ar> don't see them trying to kill us off for poisoning their atmosphere
Ar> (which would be an intelligent thing to do).
Intrude on their territory during the rut or breeding season
and see how long they remain so benevolent.
... A journey of a thousand miles is a hell of a long journey.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Ariadne
Sub: Birgin Virth
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:48:47
--------
EID:b50b 1b873e00
Ariadne, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Hector Plasmic:
HP > >HP >Then you mean that it's personal opinion, right?
HP > A>In some ways, yes.
HP >Copout. It's only personal opinion or you've got evidence.
HP >Which?
Ar> Hehe... you must have a rather sterile and boring life, my dear.
Ar> Prove to me that the sun goes around the earth; give me evidence.
Strawman. It does not, therefore there is no evidence to
support this claim. Just like claims of paranormal and
supernatural beings.
Ar> Give
Ar> me evidence that the moon isn't made of green cheese!
I worked at NASA's Lunar Receiving Laboratory and I can assure
you that the moon is a mass of only somewhat differentiated
silicate rocks dominated by ferrugineous mafic and basic to
ultrabasic rocks. You still want references?
Ar> It's personal
Ar> opinion;
Nope. It's scientific fact.
Ar> I believe that the earth goes around the sun, and I accept
Ar> that on faith (at least until I leave earth),
Why believe when all science asks you to do is think?
Ar> I believe that the moon
Ar> is made of dirt and rock (at least until I hold and eat a piece of the
Ar> fabled cheese), and I believe in Goddess. My point here is that it
Ar> doesn't make it any less "real."
It's non-evidentary, therefore unreal.
HP >Didn't. You mistake bluntness for anger. You also,
Ar> I don't think so. People being blunt don't go off in rages .
Ar> But that's okay... you're only an athiest, aren't you? We can make
Ar> excuses...
Ad hominem...
HP >madness, often even (or especially) to the testifier.
Ar> And who's to say that hallucination isn't reality of a sort?
Semantics.
Ar> It does
Ar> depend on one's definition of reality ;) Don't take yourself so
Ar> seriously, Hector. Learn to be silly. You believe things on faith,
Ar> whether you think you do or not. Because you don't know "everything"
Ar> and therefore must accept some things that other people tell you.
As long as they're logical, reasonable and evidential. This
instantly excludes anything of the "mystical" or "supernatural"
character.
... Be sure to treat your assumptions as though they are reality.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Swing low, sweet herniated disks...
Date: 07 Dec 93 07:45:30
--------
EID:3ffc 1b873da0
Hector Plasmic, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig
:
> DC> There's a book out there that explains the origin uf upright
> DC> walking, but i can't remember the name of it. I think one
> DC> of the reasons that standing upright is the placement of the
> DC> hip bones. This placement allows for a larger than normal
> DC> birth canal, meaning a larger head may be passed.
ML> Nope. Just a bonus of bipedality.
HP> I thought it was to free the hands for tool use...?
Or was it that those hands, now freed from the tyranny of
locomotion, we available for utilizing tools?
... Simple pleasures are the last refuge of the complex.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Matthew Gilliam
To: Brian Shreve
Sub: wow.
Date: 06 Dec 93 21:19:48
--------
EID:170a 1b86aa60
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 2d0539a0
Hey Brian -- My name is Matt and this is the first time I've logged on to
this
conference. I was browsing though and your comment about Jesus killing
himse
lf jumped off the page at me. Do you think he really did that. He knew
he mu
st die in order to accomplish his Father's will but the choice really wasn't
h
is. He was God and he came to Earth to accomplish eternal salvation for
all m
ankind. To reach that end, the plan of the Father was that he must die.
Jesu
s prayed that God would "remove this cup from me" but he knew that it was
God'
s plan and he was God's man for that plan. He didn't want to die, but he
did
want to be obedient to God. I think there's a distinction there, an important
one. What do you think?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Brian Shreve
To: Matthew Gilliam
Sub: wow.
Date: 07 Dec 93 18:59:58
--------
EID:5735 1b879760
MSGID: 1:106/113 38476742
Moved from "BIBLE" echo to here...
Greetings Matt!
In a msg on , Matthew Gilliam of 1:130/1008 writes:
MG> comment about Jesus killing himself jumped off the page at me.
It wasn't that dramatic of a statement of fact, was it?
MG> Do you think he really did that.
No I don't think He really did that... I _know_ He did that.
I realize it is hard to swallow, that Jesus Christ killed emself,
but no matter how you look at it, it was suicide. He had the power
and the strength to live, but He chose to die instead. When He was
on the cross even, He had the power to get emself off of that cross.
Similar to someone taking alot of pills in order to end his life,
he still, for a while, has the chance to call for help and get help
so he will continue to live.
If you or I or our neighbors did that, wouldn't we call it suicide?
MG> He knew he must die in order to accomplish his Father's will
We can rationalize it anyway we want to, but it doesn't change
facts that Jesus Christ committed suicide. A spade is a spade is
a spade.
MG> but the choice really wasn't his.
Whose was it?
MG> He was God and he came to Earth to accomplish eternal salvation
Jesus was God... the choice wasn't his to make....Hmmm. Something
doesn't sound right.
MG> for all mankind.
If you or I or our neighbor did something like that, we'd have him
committed to a mental health facility. And for a father to give his
son up to die a cruel, slow and painful death...I think the father
should be locked up to.
I can think of thousands of ways God could have made His message known
to the multitudes without His only son dying on a cross amongst those
condemned to die as criminals. Doing such an act as this, virtually
sealed the confusion that has lasted ever since those biblical times,
and undoubtedly will continue thru the life of the earth being inhabited
by man. Christians like strife and turmoil and control and religious wars,
they feed on it, thus are blinded to the insanity of christian teachings.
MG> To reach that end, the plan of the Father was that he must die.
Yeah, christians like that view, they go in droves to worship a person
like that. I'll never understand that. People followed David Koresh,
(Waco Burning) and Jimmy (James?) Jones (Guyana massacre) and the Moonies
love their leader too...we see them and run the other way...We see the
belief of christians in a God that sends his son to an awful death (if
He indeed did) to die for the sins of mankind....And we see that this
same god is going to send the little old lady who has done nothing but
good for strangers and friends and family, but just happens not to believe
in god....God is going to send this little old lady straight to hell?
I sure don't wish to worship this sort of a god!
And to shed more yuk stuff that makes me shiver...is the christian views
on the practice of satanic rituals, the drinking of blood. Then the christian
turns around and is supposed to drink and eat of Jesus' body. (symbolic)
The fact that christians do this, and THINK that is what their god wants
em to do...sheesh. Christianity is a wild wicked cult, drinking blood,
sign of the cross, and all the garmentry worn during christian rituals.
The wealth the church amasses, golden goblets and rings and rewards of
crowns full of jewels, paved streets of gold and other gems...Something
sounds strangely (well, not so strange, concidering even todays cults
are doing the same thing) similar to the satanic cult practices.
Who knows, with all the wickedry, the concept of christianity could
well be born from Satan himself!
We do have something in common, however....we both believe in the bible.
The only difference being, that you believe it is not tainted, where I
do believe it has been tainted by mankind in order to control others.
I believe a pleasant surprise awaits us all at the end of our lives,
we'll find this christian stuff to be full of malarky. That we're not
going to be subserviant to a God as christians describe Him to be.
And if I am wrong, may God have mercy on me.
Christians have their concept of God, and I have my own which is totally
unlike your own/theirs. I base my beliefs on common sense and reality,
as well as feelings and gut instincts, and from what all I can gleen
from the scriptures, even tho the scriptures are tainted, there is still
some validity to them.
I know, I