God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Dogma
Date: 18 Sep 93 10:45:16
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EID:7c1c 1b3255a0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e850
REPLY: 1:247/126 820c27c7
Quoth Steve Bedard to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
FR> Why do you insist to believe that creationism is a theory?
SB> Because it is a hypothesis that many people believe is true.
Many more people also govern their lives according to astrological
'analysis' as well. Therefore astrology has the same veracity as your belief
in a god-thing?
Do you take the virgin birth as a biological statement about Mary or a
theological statement about Jesus?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: One God
Date: 18 Sep 93 10:47:34
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EID:5e03 1b3255e0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e84c
REPLY: 1:247/126 820c27ce
Quoth Steve Bedard to Dan Ceppa thusly:
SB> The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God. Angels are not
SB> gods.
Do angels live forever?
Are they not referred to as 'sons of god'?
A son of a god is surely a god.
BTW who was the angels' mother?
Do you believe in dragons?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: New Testament
Date: 18 Sep 93 11:03:58
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EID:af2c 1b325860
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e84d
REPLY: 1:247/126 820c27cf
Quoth Steve Bedard to Robert Curry thusly:
SB> Just because John does not mention Mary and Salome does not
SB> mean that he is saying that she was alone. As for sunrise,
SB> I don't think it matters exactly what time they arrived at
SB> the tomb. That does not disprove that these events took
SB> place.
You have an automobile accident. One witness states that he saw two people
drag you out of the car but can't identify them because it was dark. Another
witness states that you got out of the car on your own and because of the
brightness of the early morning sun he is positive that there was no one
who
helped you.
Do I have any grounds to question whether or not this accident really took
place? I suggest that I do. Further, even you would find the above to be
somewhat confusing. No?
SB> These contradictions do have explanations.
No more satisfactory than your explanation of the above car accident might
be. They are explanations that only serve if one believes that the outcome
must be true at all costs. Including a suspension of disbelief that would
make Walt Disney proud.
SB> I still have not seen that the New Testament is wrong.
And you never will. More's the pity.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 18 Sep 93 11:14:54
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EID:1ec6 1b3259c0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e851
REPLY: 1:247/126 820c27d0
Quoth Steve Bedard to Robert Curry thusly:
SB> If this is true why would the Apostles claim that Jesus was
SB> born of Virgin Birth and quote Isaiah also? Surely they
SB> and the people they were preaching to would know the true
SB> meaning of that verse.
Precious Paul doesn't. See Romans 1:3. Paul states that Jesus was born 'of
the seed of David according to the flesh' and was only '_declared_' to be
the son of god.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Lonnie Branch
Sub: Jesus
Date: 18 Sep 93 11:23:52
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EID:34d6 1b325ae0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e84f
REPLY: 1:123/40 5236d0a6
Quoth Lonnie Branch to Martin Goldberg thusly:
> We don't hate anyone that got nailed up on a cross as a joke.
> Waht we do hate is the ignorance that makew people believe
> that attendant fables.
LB> Beware the antichrist. (jn 1&2)
Turn on the light. Monsters in closets disappear very quickly if you do.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: God *does* Exist!
Date: 17 Sep 93 09:22:50
--------
EID:27f6 1b314ac0
Quoting: Hector Plasmic
SB>This will be fulfilled during the thousand year reign of Christ as
SB>described in Revelation.
LS>Revelation is probably drug induced and therefore highly suspect.
HP>ROFL! The whole bible is highly suspect wherever it deviates from what
HP>we could expect to be possibly correct from observing reality.
I just borrowed a Catholic bible from a friend of mine and the introduction
before Revelation states: "it must be understood first and foremost as
a trac
t
for the times, written to increase the hope and determination of the Church
on
earth in a period of disturbance and bitter persecution, and prophesying
the
certain downfall and destruction of the Roman Imperial power." I have to
admit that I was more than a little surprised to discover that the Catholics
had such a realistic grip on what Revelation was. No prophesy of _our_
future
,
no great mystery, just like a pep rally for the troups at the end of the
1st
century.
HP>--- Tear a new one
HP>* Origin: Fundy^10 = nothing at all. (1:380/16)
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From: Bob Parry
To: Lou Dripkin
Sub: Never Again
Date: 20 Sep 93 12:54:00
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EID:e064 1b3466c0
MSGID: 1:250/102.0 2c9de028
Lou Dripkin uttered these words
I used to be a Regular Joe, just like you. I never thought
that I was the sort of guy that could get addicted to
anyting. Yeah, I did go to a political rallies here and
htere, but I stayed away fromt he really ahrd stuff. I'm
just not cut out to be that sort of person.
to the service. When it was over, I wanted more, so I ran
to the pulpit and held the gun on the preacher and made him
give me more religion. this time it would be free.
Afterwards, high on Jesus, I ran fromt he church and got
into my car and drove off. I must have been doing about 90
and weaving in and out of traffic as a cop pulled me over.
I treid to act calm, but the silly grin spra\ead all over
my face. Then the cops checked my tags and I was arrested
for holding up the church and driving under the influence
of a bible.
Now I ma in rehab and see the error of my ways. My wife visits me every
s
often, and when I get out, we plan to move away and make a
new life for ourselves.
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I am
here to tell you, that you are not alone. [That sounds like I
have been watching too much Donahue] There are a lot of people
who have had similar experiences. Some have run afoul of the law
because of the intensity, others have narrowly escaped.
It wasn't that long ago that I would have described
myself as being a hard-line, right-wing, conservative,
fundamental, evangelical Christian. In those days, I didn't want
anyone to mistake me for being some sappy liberal. In my case, I
took pride in being a conservative. In my mind, God was a
conservative, so that was what I had to be in order to be like
God.
My morals were clear and inflexible. In my world there
was no such thing as a grey area, or an area of possible
discussion. Everything had an absolute value and I was
determined to discover it and act accordingly.
For the first fifteen years of my Christian experience I
was a man in desperate need of inner healing, the kind that God
does quietly and most of the time, slowly. For the last five
years, I have been seeking a means by which that healing can take
place.
The reason that I need this healing is because I am a
survivor of sexual abuse when I was a child and emotional abuse,
that to a lesser degree, still continues today. My father has
been the person who has carried out the emotional abuse, among
others. There have been well-meaning Christian people who have
intended to help, but ended up hurting me more than if they had
left me alone. I have been to therapy groups, parachurch
ministries, been under the "authority" of various churches and
pastors, had support groups in churches and support networks of
people from various churches who tried to help. All of this
within the fundamentalist camp. All of it was designed to change
me into an image they believed to be like Christ. All of it
resulted in increasing my dependency upon other people when I
really needed to learn to be independent and more depenedent upon
God.
Even though most Baptists would shriek at the very
utterance of the thought, I have discovered that there is at
least as much religiosity and formalism in Baptist churches as
there is in the Roman Catholic realm. The only real difference,
in my mind, is that in Roman Catholic churches, they are far more
open about their religiosity. Baptists, at least the ones with
whom I have had contact, make all sorts of attempts at disguising
their religiosity.
At the moment, I am loosely connected with an Anglican
church in Toronto. The minister has been so very good with me.
There is no pressure placed upon me to "get with the program" or
anything like that. In fact, he is willing to allow me to
rediscover God without the claptrap with which I was burdened in
fundamentalist, evangelical realms. Healing and learning are
taking place. It is a bit different than many Christians might
expect, but I know God is at work in my life, even apart from
religion.
Bob Parry 09/20/93 12:54:08
___
TLX v3.00 Friends come in when others go out.
-- SPEED 1.20 [NR]:
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Bob Parry
To: All
Sub: Biblical Sexuality 1/2
Date: 20 Sep 93 13:49:02
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EID:ca68 1b346e20
MSGID: 1:250/102.0 2c9ded0e
As I am rather new to this conference, I will introduce
myself. I am 39 years old, single and a fourth year political
science student at York University in Toronto. I came to know
Christ about 20 years ago through a school friend of mine who was
attending a small Baptist church northwest of Toronto. At one
time I believed God was calling me into ministry, so I spent
three years in Bible college and seven years in lay ministry.
Eventually, I realized that God had other plans for me so I began
searching for them. I believe I am somewhat closer to
discovering what God desires for me in life now than I was a few
years ago. The Christian life is pretty much a battle in my
mind, but it is one worth fighting. Enough about me, on with the
subject at hand.
There is likely no subject that causes more concern and
confusion among Christians than that of sexuality. One of the
reasons why I believe it has become so confusing is because lust
has been misunderstood. For many Christians, lust embraces all
sexual thought or feeling. It is the scope of that definition
that I believe is flawed. This message is an analytical message
and is not intended to be a reflection upon my life or that of
any other Christian. I will accept as being axiomatic that some
Christians will disagree with the definition of lust I will offer
and with my conclusions. I will not argue from Greek or Hebrew,
nor will I engage in debate over versions of the Bible.
There will be three premises upon which my argument
rests. The first premise is that sexuality has been given to
humankind by God. The second premise is that God intends for
humankind to enjoy sex and the third premise is that sexuality is
a part of the human being which develops throughout life.
The working definition of lust that I will offer is: lust
occurs when a person focuses upon one element of a thing or a
person to the exclusion of other parts or characteristics which
would otherwise give balance.
Most of us are familiar with images of people who are
driven by the desire for achievement. These are people who work
extra hours/jobs to accumulate more things, both needed and for
leisure. These are the people who are so focused upon one goal
that virtually all other things fall by the wayside. There is no
sacrifice too great or price too high for them. Obtaining the
goal is the ultimate. Whatever their goal may be, power, money,
material possessions, status, or a goal that is entirely
personal, these people are totally driven toward it.
Sexual lust is pretty much the same. In the case of
sexual lust, the goal is sexual pleasure and satisfaction. There
are various means that people use to obtain this gratification.
Some people seek fulfillment through unstable relationships.
These provide the sexual gratification they desire without the
extra baggage inherent in long-term committed relationships.
Others seek this sexual gratification vicariously through
pornography. Others may be more imaginative and create their own
means of obtaining this sexual pleasure. The problem with each
of the above choices is that they characterize sexuality in an
imbalanced manner. The focus is personal gratification, not a
balanced relationship with the other person that recognizes the
other characteristics, talents and abilities of one's significant
other.
If lust is focusing upon one element of sexuality to the
exclusion of other elements which would give balance, what about
sexual thoughts? Are all sexual thoughts wrong, even if they
encompass relational elements? It is my opinion that it is not
wrong. My first premise was that sexuality was given to
humankind by God. If sexuality is a gift from God, then how can
it be wrong to meditate upon such a gift? The answer is that it
becomes wrong when the focus of our thoughts are imbalanced.
Fantasies are synonomous with sexual thoughts. In the
twenty years I have been a Christian, I have never heard anyone
discuss fantasies in a rational manner. The vast majority of
Christians identify all sexual fantasies as being sinful and the
discussion ends at that point. I think that is superficial and
has led to a great deal of misinformation, doubt, fear and
needless guilt about sexual thought.
One's fantasy world is often characterized as a dark,
foggy place, full of demons and gremlins lurking about to devour
the Christian. I would like to offer a different paradigm. I
would like to think of the fantasy world as a workshop for
information that we receive, be it sexual or otherwise. It is
virtually the only place where we can evaluate information in
absolute security. We can accept or discard information with
total impunity as no one needs to know about this world of ours.
continued in next message...
Bob Parry 09/20/93 13:48:25
___
X TLX v3.00 X Alex, I'll take "Things Only I Know" for $200.
---
X SPEED 1.20 [NR] X
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Bob Parry
To: All
Sub: Biblical Sexuality 2/2
Date: 20 Sep 93 14:05:04
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EID:ca98 1b3470a0
MSGID: 1:250/102.0 2c9df0d0
The third premise, which I stated in my previous message,
was that sexuality is an element of the human being that
develops. If this is true, then it is not true that our
sexuality is inherent. We cannot have inherent sexuality that is
also learned. The two are mutually exclusive.
One of the more predominant theories of behavioral
learning in psychology is that we learn from role models. If
this is actually true, then the fantasy world is a very important
workplace for various models which are presented to us from early
childhood to the end of life. This raises another point that is
often either misstated or ignored altogether. Sexuality is
fluid. While most people make concrete decisions, consiously or
unconsciously, our concepts of people and sexual relationships
change constantly.
It is important to note that I have merely offered
another paradigm for the fantasy world. I haven't said that it
is either good or bad. In fact, I think that is more good than
bad, but it can become bad if it gets out of control. Again, the
point of balance.
Sexual thoughts or fantasies often lead to sexual
expression. Of all the forms of sexual expression available,
none is more common than masturbation. Many people, both
Christian and non-Christian, experience a range of feelings, from
discomfort when the subject is mentioned, to guilt, shame and
even remorse. There are probably as many reasons for this
subjective guilt as there are people who experience it. The
reason that I raise the issue of masturbation is that for a large
percentage of the Christian population, it has been one of the
issues shrouded in silence, somewhat condemned and left to the
individual Christian to attempt to handle. Very few of us have
been able to deal with it effectively. The most common, and
perhaps the easiest, response is to tag it as sinful and either
attempt to eradicate it from one's life or hope that it goes away
after marriage. It is my belief that this is a perfectly
legitimate form of sexual expression and if it is not compulsive
or obsessive, it is neither sinful nor harmful.
Of course, the issue of sexuality cannot be discussed
adequately in one or two messages. I have but skimmed the
surface of an issue that needs attention.
Bob Parry 09/20/93 14:05:28
___
X TLX v3.00 X XXXXXXXX IN STEREO WHERE AVAILABLE XXXXXXXX
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X SPEED 1.20 [NR] X
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: God *does* Exist!
Date: 18 Sep 93 07:06:49
--------
EID:a334 1b3238c0
Quoting: Steve Bedard
SB>LS>Revelation is probably drug induced and therefore highly suspect.
SB>
SB>Evidence?
Ernest P. Janzen, Religious Studies, University of Toronto
John C. Meagher, Religious Studies, University of Toronto
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: God *does* Exist!
Date: 20 Sep 93 20:50:12
--------
EID:73fb 1b34a640
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9e4ea43
Quoth Liz Saunders to Steve Bedard thusly:
SB>LS>Revelation is probably drug induced and therefore highly suspect.
SB>
SB>Evidence?
LS> Ernest P. Janzen, Religious Studies, University of Toronto
LS> John C. Meagher, Religious Studies, University of Toronto
You could also check out John Allegro's book 'The Sacred Mushroom and the
Cross".
Revelation 2:17 refers to 'hidden' manna, described as 'a small white
stone'. Why the word 'hidden'? The phrase at the end of the verse 'which
no
man knoweth saving he that receiveth it' sounds rather secretive as well.
When opium was eaten at the time that revelation was written the form that
it took was as a small white stone, quite chewy but solid.
Revelation 10:9 refers to an angel giving the narrator a 'little book'.
Pages in many scrolls and books were made of hemp. The processing of hemp
2,000 years ago for paper and other products was not sophisticated enough
to
remove all of the THC, as today's processing does. Eating a 'little book'
that will 'make thy belly bitter, but make thy mouth as sweet as honey'
can
easily be compared to the experience of eating hashish or other hemp related
products.
More than this, read it. Look at the imagery and compare it to common
accounts of images reported by opium eaters, peyote eaters and hash eaters.
Many Aztec priests report startlingly similar images after eating peyote.
There is a huge level of support for the idea of either drug or deprivation
induced ecstasy as an influence on the writing of Revelation.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bible
Date: 21 Sep 93 09:51:52
--------
EID:a684 1b354e60
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171cd
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ce6
Quoth Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> All of them. One does not normally punish someone for not doing
SE> anything wrong, does one?
SB> He was not punished by James. It was all show, to please
SB> the Jews.
CEATC
Right.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Holy Spirit
Date: 21 Sep 93 09:54:18
--------
EID:4222 1b354ec0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171ce
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ce9
Quoth Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them know wh
SE> Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he sweated
SE> You don't suppose that someone just made that bit up for dramatic eff
SE> you?
SB> You are going to hate this answer. The Holy Spirit told
SB> them what happened.
In other words, it doesn't make sense to you either. So, as with all
christians, when there is no answer; conjure up a ghost. What a pitiful
way
to conduct one's life and intellectual affairs.
In the following, 'God' is used to indicate the 'God' referred to in the
OT
and the NT. That is, Yahweh or Eloham or YHWH or El or whatever name he
may
be referred to by.
Do you believe that all things are possible with God?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Judass
Date: 21 Sep 93 10:00:30
--------
EID:3648 1b355000
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171cf
REPLY: 1:291/16 2c9a7e5d
Quoth Jason Rosendale to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> There is no mention in any Egyptian inscriptions of a global flood
SE> around 2250 BCE. (You think that maybe they just didn't notice it?)
JR> Well, if they believe that Noah 'just knew' when he was
JR> going to die, I don't think it's that great a leap for them
JR> to believe that the Egyptians 'just didn't know' that they
JR> were dead.
Yeah, but what about all the water damage done to the pyramids? All that
seaweed tangled around sarcophagi and little tiny fish skeletons lying all
over the floors of the tombs. Horrible mess.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bible Problems...not!
Date: 21 Sep 93 10:50:08
--------
EID:1ae1 1b355640
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c0
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ce7
Quoth Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins thusly:
SB> He is not saying that the story of Abraham is not true. He
SB> is saying that they can be used as an allegory.
Since you seem to love the original Greek so much... it says 'which things
is being allegorized'. It does not say that they _may_ be or that they _can_
be or that they _might_ be. It says _is_ (are), that is definite, not maybe
or perhaps.
SE> Titus 1:14 refers to 'Jewish fables and commandments of men'. ('Fable
SE> written as mythos in the original Greek.)
SB> This word does not necessarily mean myth the way we know it.
SB> My Greek lexicon says that other possible translations
SB> include a word, speech or a tale.
Very little seems to mean to you what it means to the rest of the planet.
Try this, did Jesus clear the temple of the money-changers at the start
or
the end of his ministry?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Faith
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:01:50
--------
EID:01cd 1b355820
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171d2
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ced
Quoth Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> Christianity is a very real danger to this planet.
SE> It scares me that people that are that ignorant and superstitious can
SE> running the government and the justice system of the most powerful na
SE> the planet. It should scare you too.
SB> You seem to be saying that all Christians are ignorant,
SB> superstitious people who should never be given a position
SB> of responsibility.
I am saying that people with unfounded superstitious beliefs that influence
their actions in such a way as to be a danger to this planet and to humanity
should either not be given positions of such responsibility or they should
be repeatedly taken to task when their statements and management of a
nation's affairs borders on a criminal disregard for humanity or the planet
and provides a possibility of dangerous action being undertaken.
So, if the shoe fits...
SB> Would you have included a person like Martin Luther King?
I don't recall him 'running the country' from a position of importance in
either the government or the judiciary. I concede that there are many good
people who have managed to overcome the limitations that christianity places
upon them and thereby manage to contribute much to the greater good on this
planet. I should include hundreds who have done so over the centuries.
Such exceptions, however, would seem to prove the rule, once again.
SB> Was he a danger to our society also?
I assume that you are merely being sarcastic and will not bother to reply
to
that other than to say that many good things have been done by believers
in
the christian myths in spite of such beliefs, not because of them.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: God Loves Monkeys Too
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:11:04
--------
EID:dec5 1b355960
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c2
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Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> Morality, altruism and love are not the result of a god-thing being
SE> involved, they are based, as is all 'moral' behaviour, on a desire,
SE> that springs from our darkest genetic recesses, to protect our own
SE> species and ensure that our DNA and genetic information continues to
SE> propagate.
JCJ> This, however, seems to me as far-fetched and downright
JCJ> silly as my religious faith seems to you. "Darkest genetic
JCJ> recesses" sounds a little mystic to me
It shouldn't. It is merely an 'admission', if you like, that there is still
more to learn. That some of the details of our genetic past are still
undiscovered. I can assure you that there is no hint of mysticism in any
of
my thought processes. Insinuations that there may be are pointless.
JCJ> -- but the innate
JCJ> desire to "ensure that our DNA and genetic information
JCJ> continues to propagate" sounds like wild speculation.
Might I recommend 'Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors' by Carl Sagan and Ann
Druyan? It provides a very detailed look at the observable inclination of
even the most simple genetic structures to ensure the replication of their
kind.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Biblical Witness
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:21:16
--------
EID:0cd8 1b355aa0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c3
REPLY: 1:135/71 82866dcb
Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> Applying the same techniques to these letters as we do to Paul's or
SE> to the 4 gospels, reveals the same levels of authenticity for most of
SE> them that we can provide for the canon.
JCJ> I don't think so.
Perhaps you should try it. Then you can be more definite in your doubts.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Biblical Witness
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:22:46
--------
EID:0cd8 1b355ac0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c4
REPLY: 1:135/71 82866dcc
Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them know
SE> what Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he
SE> sweated blood?
JCJ> You're obviously correct, Simon. Still, that does not
JCJ> diminish the theory that the disciples memorized certain of
JCJ> Jesus's sayings.
The point is that if _these_ words that Jesus is claimed to have spoken
were
pure invention (since all were asleep at the time) how can you possibly
assume that _any_ of the words that are attributed to Jesus are genuine.
If
the authors of the gospels could invent his words on one occasion, why not
on other occasions? Why not the whole thing? What rational basis do you
have
for trusting these documents? Perhaps your 'faith' in their veracity is
misplaced. Perhaps Jesus never said anything that is attributed to him or
perhaps it was edited and changed to suit the agendas of the redactors.
In Mark 11:36 Jesus attributes Psalm 110 to David. We know that David did
not write Psalm 110, he had been dead for hundreds of years by the time
it
was written. How can you trust the words of a man who is supposed to be
divine that makes such an error?
JCJ> The Lord's prayer is one clear example.
JCJ> The liturgy of the Eucharist is another. But perhaps even
JCJ> the sayings -- as reflected, e.g., in the Sermon on the
JCJ> Mount, in the "Q" Document, or in the Gospel of Thomas --
JCJ> were sayings that Jesus actually taught the disciples.
And, perhaps, as with the 'sweating' of blood, it is a lie, a fabrication.
The mere invention of those with who knows what vested interests. Your faith
may be laudable but if it is based on fiction it is misplaced.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: God Is
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:35:38
--------
EID:5759 1b355c60
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171d3
REPLY: 1:135/71 82866dce
Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
JCJ> Interesting questions, Simon. I'm not sure, but I
JCJ> really do not believe that I "_want_ to believe in a
JCJ> god-thing so badly" or am driven "to _need_ such a belief?"
No one believes _anything_ unless they _want_ to. The need for the belief
arises after the belief has been accepted. You want to believe then, once
you do, you need to continue or admit that you were wrong. When it comes
to
religious belief it has been my experience that for most people this is
difficult to the point of impossibility since it, in some ways, serves to
invalidate the person themselves. No one would choose to voluntarily
invalidate themselves.
JCJ> Indeed, as I recall, I resisted the call, preferring to
JCJ> think that my own mind was more capable of understanding the
JCJ> meaning of life.
That, of course, assumes that there is a 'meaning of life'.
JCJ> A combination of the witness of changed lives -- especially in
JCJ> struggles for peace and justice -- my own extensive readings and
JCJ> studies -- my own individual experiences -- led me slowly to the
JCJ> point of recognizing the still small voice of God. I didn't want
JCJ> it or need it. But there it was.
The fact that you searched at all indicates that you wanted an answer to
some question or other. There was probably a need to find what you wanted
to
find or you would not have been motivated to begin the search.
If you didn't want it, you would not have accepted it. Now that you have
it
you need it. Try to imagine life without it. If you can't, then you are
addicted to it. You need it.
When one searches for meaning one usually finds not what is there but what
one wants to find there.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: God Is
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:56:36
--------
EID:5759 1b355f00
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171d4
REPLY: 1:350/401 85B12D9B
Quoth Jesse C. Jones thusly:
JCJ> The Apostle Paul, who wrestled with the doubting intellectuals at
JCJ> Athens, Acts 17:16-34, understood that faith comes only from
JCJ> spiritual revelation the individual -- it is not a matter to be
JCJ> proven or disproven by human reasoning:
Then why do you, here, attempt to do so? Why quote scripture? If accessible
and articulate reality is not needed to support your belief, if empirical
evidence is unnecessary, why refer to the bible? Is not the very physical
nature of the bible an empirical support mechanism? Quoting the bible is
to
claim empirical support for that which either needs or has none.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Visions
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:08:12
--------
EID:2b1e 1b356100
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c7
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ce3
Quoth Steve Bedard to Hector Plasmic thusly:
SB>As for automatically believing them, let me tell you that I met a
SB>who became a Christian through visions and dreams
HP>No, you (possibly; you're a typical lying fundy and this is an
HP>unsupported claim) met someone who _claimed_ such. If he'd heard the
HP>same rumors as you, he may have been parroting them just as you have
HP>been, and still are, without evidence. Here you are, Steve, doing the
HP>same old thing yet again, and, stupidly, in plain sight of the echo.
SB> Sorry but the person I met is now a very good friend of
SB> mine. She was not just passing rumours about dreams. It
SB> was a very difficult thing for her to convert to
SB> Christianity from Islam. She would not have done it if she
SB> was not sure that God was telling her to.
She might have done it if she was unsure of what she wanted and wanted to
find out if what she wanted was to be found in what she saw that others
had
found when they wanted to find what they thought that they wanted. As she
continues to decide what it is that she wants she may find that what she
wanted to find was what she found but that it is still wanting, after all.
At this point she becomes a Hare Krishna. Use her conversion while you can
because she will want to move on one day.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Judaism
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:14:48
--------
EID:8cde 1b3561c0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c8
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0cec
Quoth Steve Bedard to Moshe Shulman thusly:
SB> I've got a question for you. God was actively involved with
SB> the Jews for a long time through prophets and signs and
SB> wonders. Why has He been so silent with the Jews for the
SB> last couple of thousand years?
It's been pretty bloody 'silent with' christians for the last couple
thousand years as well.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Martin Irish
Sub: Jesus
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:17:12
--------
EID:2be8 1b356220
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c9
REPLY: 1:105/1017 85B3313F
Quoth Martin Irish to Steve Bedard thusly:
MI> There is NO biblical evidence that Jesus was married, and if
MI> He was not married, and had a son out of marriage, that
MI> would make Him a sinner, and we all know (I hope) that Jesus
MI> was without sin of any kind. Otherwise, He could not have
MI> been the Savior.
So there is a limit to what Jesus can do?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Martin Irish
Sub: foul language
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:21:40
--------
EID:637e 1b3562a0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171ca
REPLY: 1:105/1017 85B33140
Quoth Martin Irish to Marilyn Burge thusly:
MI> THIS IS AN OPEN STATEMENT FOR ALL TO READ. PLEASE
MI> REFRAIN FROM THE USE OF OBCENE LANGUAGE IN YOUR MESSAGES..IT
MI> IS OFFENSIVE AND JUVENILE!
Copulate away from here.
MI> 'NUFF SAID!!!
You bet.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Re: Creationism
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:34:56
--------
EID:6b29 1b356440
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171cb
REPLY: 1:202/102 2c9ac0a4
Quoth Jeff Jones to Simon Ewins & All thusly:
JJ> Apparently, some fundie asshole is afraid of my atheistic
JJ> non-beliefs and posted this little snipet in my name. I
JJ> guess I'll just have to call more frequently in the future
JJ> so I can catch the scoundrel in the act.
In that case, apologies for any venom spat your way .
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Holy Spirit
Date: 20 Sep 93 10:31:50
--------
EID:1fc3 1b3453e0
Quoting: Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins
SE> In fact, in John, Jesus does not pray and no one falls asleep. In Mar
SE> find the same (almost) as in Luke, that is, details about what Jesus
SE> his prayer related by (one of?) those that were sleeping at the time.
SE> Matthew, we have a similar story with detail that no one was awake to
SE> witness.
SB>You are going to hate this answer. The Holy Spirit told them what
SB>happened.
Do I detect a sense of humour here?
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: God Loves Monkeys Too
Date: 20 Sep 93 10:40:03
--------
EID:0e0a 1b345500
Quoting: Jesse C. Jones
JJ>-=> Quoting Simon Ewins to Jesse C. Jones <=-
SE> Morality, altruism and love are not the result of a god-thing being
SE> involved, they are based, as is all 'moral' behaviour, on a desire,
SE> that springs from our darkest genetic recesses, to protect our own
SE> species and ensure that our DNA and genetic information continues to
SE> propagate.
JJ>This, however, seems to me as far-fetched and downright silly as my
JJ>religious faith seems to you. "Darkest genetic recesses" sounds a little
JJ>mystic to me -- but the innate desire to "ensure that our DNA and genetic
JJ>information continues to propagate" sounds like wild speculation.
Actually, dominant (alpha) male chimpanzees and baboons will kill and eat
the
offspring of the previous alpha male. The rationale is that the only way
he
can propagate his own genes is to eliminate a rival's infant so that the
mother will enter estrus again and be available to him for impregnation.
As
long as she has a dependent infant, she will not enter estrus and not be
"available" to him to continue his genes. The point being that it is not
species DNA but individual DNA that matters.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Liz Saunders
Sub: Holy Spirit
Date: 21 Sep 93 19:34:16
--------
EID:2090 1b359c40
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f8f960
Quoth Liz Saunders to Simon Ewins thusly:
SB>You are going to hate this answer. The Holy Spirit told them what
SB>happened.
LS> Do I detect a sense of humour here?
I wish...
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bible Problems...not!
Date: 21 Sep 93 22:26:02
--------
EID:f7df 1b35b340
Quoting: Steve Bedard
SE> Paul calls at least one of the the OT stories an allegory. He als
SE> the Jewish scriptures (and commandments) as fables (mythos in the
SB> Where and what does Paul call an OT story an allegory?
SB> Also, could you give me a verse where Paul calls the
SB> commandments mythos?
SE> Galations 4:24 (referring to a mention of Abraham in v22,23).
SB>He is not saying that the story of Abraham is not true. He is saying
that
SB>they can be used as an allegory. This is shown in the literal translation
SB>where the word translated as allegory really means being allegorized.
Are you actually suggesting that some part of the bible is allegory? Lookout,
you're in trouble now.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Beliefs
Date: 21 Sep 93 22:35:11
--------
EID:2cde 1b35b460
Quoting: Steve Bedard
LS>It's a pity isn't it. Gives Christians like me (although my husband
w
LS>disagree and say I'm not a Christian) who do read and even take course
LS>the
LS>New Testament a bad name. Heck, I even believe in science.
SB>So you are a Christian? Then what problem with my beliefs do you have?
Primarily, I don't think that the bible can be taken as anything more than
a
didactic tool for helping Xian's at any age (the 1st or 20th century) in
trying to understand the teachings of Christ. I think that, in fact, what
Christ was teaching was a very Jewish doctrine (in other words, he was only
trying to reinforce what Judaism was already teaching at the time, but he
was
trying to make it clear that it was important to live the belief, not just
proselytize it). If we had really listened to him, we might all be very
devou
t
Jews, but instead of listening to his teaching, we glorified him.
Therefore, I think that to argue the Bible's divinity or infallibility is
a
mistake, because it is full of mistakes and contradictions, but that's not
the
point. The point is to live as best you can, without doing injury, damage
or
any other harm to another person.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Bible Promise
Date: 21 Sep 93 22:38:02
--------
EID:1a25 1b35b4c0
Quoting: Martin Goldberg
MG>>teaches the kids about the realities of HIV. Of course, the
MG>>fundies call it "Condom lessons" and want it removed. If we
MG>>let them, pretty soon the USA will be just like Iran.
LS> But maybe, at least, it will be fundies, or their children, who
LS> die first.
MG>You laugh, but it's another case of the rich getting richer. As real
info
MG>about HIV becomes available, many people will still continue to blieve
that
MG>it is a gay disases and not their problem...until their kid comes home
from
MG>school with a case of any STD.
I'm just grateful that there is no one telling me that I can't properly
educat
e
my children about how to stay alive and disease free when they get to that
stage, especially a church or state that allegedly "cares" about their welfare
.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Biblical Witness
Date: 22 Sep 93 14:26:34
--------
EID:0cd8 1b367340
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca09c4b0
REPLY: 1:135/71 82866dcb
Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> No, I was referring to a copy of a letter from a king to Jesus asking
SE> him to come and heal him. There is a copy of a brief reply from Jesus
SE> to the king declining the offer. I, unfortunately, can't lay my hands
SE> on it at the moment but will post the references later today.
JCJ> I'm not familiar with this. I look forward to reading it. Thanks.
Well, it is not 'today' but it is undeniably 'later'. The earliest reference
to the letters is by Eusebius, Bishop of Syria. For their genuineness he
appeals to the public registers and records of the city of Edessa in
Mesopotamia, where Abgarus reigned. The originals of the letters were found
written in Syriac which Eusebius translated to Greek and published in his
Ecclesiastical History.
Grabe, Archbishop Cave, Dr. Parker and other 'divines' have strongly lobbied
for their admission to the canon of scriptures. The Rev. Jeremiah Jones
has
observed that many homes in England have the following epistle hung up on
the wall in a small frame.
Essentially King Abgarus writes to Jesus asking him to come and cure a
disease that he is afflicted with. Jesus replies as follows...
'Abgarus, you are happy, forasmuch as you have believed on me, whom you
have
not seen. For it is written concerning me, that those who have seen me
should not believe on me, that they who have not seen might believe and
live. As to that part of your letter, which relates to my giving you a
visit, I must inform you, that I must fulfil all the ends of my mission
in
this country, and after that be received up again to him who sent me. But
after my ascension I will send one of my disciples, who will cure your
disease, and give life to you, and all that are with you.'
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: STEVE BEDARD
Sub: Talmud
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:25:00
--------
EID:EBCE F3378320
SB>I was wondering. I Judaism, what do they put more importance on, the
SB>Torah or the Talmud?
The Torah obviously. The Talmud is a collection of explainations of the
laws in the Torah, and how to practically apply them. (In addition to a
record of many oral traditions).
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: PHIL BIRNBAUM
Sub: "G-d"
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:40:00
--------
EID:11EE F3378500
PB>You seem to be well informed on Judaism, so I have a question for you
...
PB>are Orthodox Jews allowed to say the word "God"? As far as I
PB>remember from my teachers at hebrew school, Jews weren't allowed to
PB>use "God"; we had to use "hashem" (informally) or the various Hebrew
PB>names "El", "Shaddai", "Elohim", "Adonai", etc. in prayer.
We avoid saying the name G-d in any language and certainly not any of
the holy names of G-d that are mentioned in the Tenach.
PB>The reason I ask: here in Canada, we have the line "God keep our land/
PB>Glorious and free" in our anthem. I was wondering if that would be
PB>offensive to Orthodox Jews as well as atheists.
I doubt there would be a problem.
PB>P.S. If you don't get a response from me within three or four days,
it's
PB>probably because I didn't get your message ... my sysop here keeps this
PB>area smaller than it needs to be.
No problem, I don't sign in here very often anyway. Especially this time
of year. BTW where in Canada do you live?
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: LONNIE BRANCH
Sub: antichrists
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:41:00
--------
EID:63BB F3378520
LB>The ought to rename this conference, the commie jew echo.
LB>The jew is the antichrist. (1&2 jn)
Actually the Jew is a member of G-d's beloved people, who he has
promised never to forget. If you are not a Jew I would be very worried
after making a statement like that about the 'apple of his eye'.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: ROBERT CURRY
Sub: Jaysus
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:44:00
--------
EID:D07B F3378580
RC>One might keep the better parts of a culture while discarding or
RC>modifying the superstitious shit. Just recycle the waste products
RC>until their toxic properties have been minimized, or better, fully
RC>expunged - leaving one with something far better than the original.
RC>How can these fanatics turn their backs on reason? What schmucks.
Robert, your foul lauguage aside, I think that many of those who follow
the religion are better educated in subjects requiring reason than you
are. I am degreed in Mathematics from UC Berkeley (1977), and I know
many 'fanatics' from other hard acedemic fields. But if it makes you
feel good to think that way, don't let me bother you.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: ROBERT CURRY
Sub: "True Story" ;-)
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:48:00
--------
EID:A11C F3378600
RC> RC> Area: OPEN_BIBLE
RC> MS> Robert, can you find me ewhere there is a a board that carries
RC> MS> this in New York (city). Thanks. Moshe.
RC>Well, I don't see any messages in open_bible originating from net
RC>278 (where you are posting from).
RC>You could always ask your sysop to areafix that area for you; that
RC>should be the easiest way to get the echo.
I don't know if he can, maybe you can ask someone there if possible. I
know that Harvey Smith would just love the chance to debate with me.
(Maybe you can invite him here with his MJ friends?)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: STEVE BEDARD
Sub: Many Mansions
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:50:00
--------
EID:D314 F3378640
SB>Do you know what the Talmud says about Jesus?
Yes I do --- NOTHING
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: *.*
Date: 24 Sep 93 15:21:18
--------
EID:b7a4 1b387aa0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2ca3108a
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 33cdb921
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Martin:
In a msg of , Martin Goldberg writes to Tyler
A. Wun
der:
TAW>> I guess you can be the judge.
MG> Just make sure it won't break the scanner. It's not mine.
Well? Did it break?
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Sex problems
Date: 24 Sep 93 15:26:24
--------
EID:5875 1b387b40
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2ca311eb
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Steve:
In a msg of , Steve Quarrella writes to Tyler
A.
Wunder:
SQ> 23 Aug 93, dixit Tyler A. Wunder ad Martin Goldberg:
TA>> I've got just *the* picture to send you. If you could scan it
TA>> into a gif, and send me a copy of said file, I would be
SQ> It's a GREAT picture. Thanks for sending that onto Our Partner In Satan,
SQ> Martin. :)
Thanks. To be honest, I normally don't smile that much -- the grin was
p
rovided courtesy of some illegal fungi I had ingested a little while prior
to
the picture being taken.
SQ> [TYLER.GIF, folks. Any time outside of Zone Mail Hour, v.32bis.]
How do I go about getting a copy of this?
---
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Cult
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:23:08
--------
EID:1508 1b3742e0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195590
REPLY: 1:247/126 838dea2b
Quoth Steve Bedard thusly:
SB> Actually, according to Revelation, we will be spending
SB> eternity on earth in the New Jerusalem,
For _real_ revelation you should quote Timothy Leary.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Genesis - One Version
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:24:28
--------
EID:76f9 1b374300
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195591
REPLY: 1:247/126 838dea2c
Quoth Steve Bedard to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
sb> Genesis does not give two contradictory accounts of creation.
sb> It gives a description of the same creation from two different
sb> points of view.
FR>See, now I'm very confused. In one version of the mythology humans ar
FR>created before the rest of the animals. In another version of the sam
FR>mythology, humans are created after the rest of the animals. (I don'
FR>actually recall the mythologies as I don't have a copy of them here.)
SB> I have already explained that the second account does not
SB> say when animals were created. It does not need to, the
SB> first account gives the chronology.
You really don't have any idea how pathetic your scrambling is beginning
to
look, do you?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Dogma
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:25:44
--------
EID:7c1c 1b374320
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195595
REPLY: 1:247/126 838dea2d
Quoth Steve Bedard to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
KB> So you would have us teach the bloody history of torture and murde
KB> name of God that christianity has represented throughout history?
sb> As long as it was also mentioned that these terrible things that p
sb> have done in the name of Christianity go completely against the
sb> teachings of Jesus.
FR>They _are_ the "teachings of Jesus." Pay attention:
FR> Josh 8:1-30
FR>I could go on, of course. Christians who kill are only following the
FR>directives and the examples set forth in the classical Christian mytho
FR>all like to call "the bible."
SB> Give me a quote where Jesus teaches that these things are to
SB> be done.
Why? You will simply either ignore it, distort it, claim that what it says
isn't what it says, shout 'evidence?', shout 'proof?' or quote some
completely irrelevant passage that itself is contradicted elsewhere.
You criticize or ignore creative biblical scholarship that calls for a
change in the way that scripture should be interpreted yet you worship a
man
who did just that (see all of the 'it has been said, but I say' passages
after the Sermon on the Mount). If it wasn't for critical interpretation
of
scriptures and thereby an overturning of the old in favour of the new you
wouldn't have a Jesus to worship. Even the worship of Jesus is strange given
your claim to be monotheistic (but then the ludicrous concept of the trinity
was invented to you help out with that, wasn't it?).
Your current beliefs are not even close to the original christian beliefs.
As 'proof' I offer you the fact that you are not Roman Catholic. The church
out of the first century became (with a boost from Constantine) the Church
of Rome which became the Roman Catholic Church. Along the way Calvinists
and
Protestants sprouted from the main branch and then all hell broke loose
with
a new version of christianity every few years.
Christianity does not preach the gospels to offer man a guide to salvation.
It uses the gospels as a weapon in the ideological conquest of man.
Your belief system is so fractured and tenuous as to be rendered only
slightly less laughable than your pathetic attempts to hold it together
in
the face of screaming inconsistencies and ridiculous assertions.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Son Of God
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:43:30
--------
EID:8603 1b374560
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195596
REPLY: 1:247/126 838dea35
Quoth Steve Bedard to John Burnette thusly:
SB> Sorry, but just because Jesus did not quote the whole psalm,
SB> does not convince me that He was not quoting part of it.
He also quoted Psalm 110 and attributed it to David. David didn't write
it.
It was written either in Babylon, during the exile, or even in the late
Maccabaean period.
How could the 'divine son' of a god-thing get that wrong?
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: I'll be back... soon
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:46:12
--------
EID:2974 1b3745c0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195597
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2c9bf46c
Quoth Joe Savelli to Don Martin thusly:
JS> You guys must not be able to read. The Story about the man
JS> in florida arrested for praying was well documented in the
JS> 700 club. You can write them if you don't believe me. Else
JS> the subject is put to rest. Simply check it out, unless your
JS> purpose is to harras and learn nothing...
The 700 Club?!?!?!?!? You must be joking. That really is an unbiased source
with no agenda to maintain, isn't it? What in the name of your sweet Jesus
gives you the idea that they would either tell the truth or not distort
it
to suit their purpose?
Bob Jones, the founder of the christian Bob Jones University, besides being
very obviously humble, stated in Christianity Today (x, no.13, 1 April 1966)
that Billy Graham has done more harm to the cause of christianity than any
man alive.
Do you believe that as well? After all, it _is_ Bob Jones... but then again
it _is_ Billy Graham as well. Hmmmm....
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Biblical Witness
Date: 22 Sep 93 07:18:41
--------
EID:13ee 1b363a40
Quoting: Jesse C. Jones
JJ>Would it be fair to say, Liz, that early tradition, with varying weight,
JJ>attributed the gospels to the authors whose names they now bear, and
schola
r
JJ>can neither verify nor disprove the tradition?
Yes. All they can do is make educated guesses about the identity of the
redactors based on the style and quality of the greek/aramaic; explanations
give (i.e., Mark explains Jewish custom and the aramaic expressions, Matthew
does not); level of christology (to determine how late it was written);
etc.
JJ>been discounted primarily because of its perceived late date. There
are
JJ>apparently scholars, however, who argue still for authorship by John.
And also that John's Gospel, John 1, 2 and 3 and Revelation were all written
b
y
the same author/group, for which the evidence is very weak.
JJ>BTW, my post was not arguing for the traditional attributions, but was
JJ>only replying to the suggestion that the Gospel of Peter should have
been
JJ>included because of its implied authorship. My reading suggests that
claim
JJ>for authorship is weak.
I have neither read nor studied the Gospel of Peter (that will probably
be
next summer) so you may well be right, I can make no further comment as
I have
no further knowledge.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Michael Gothreau
Sub: Beliefs
Date: 22 Sep 93 07:28:35
--------
EID:0396 1b363b80
Quoting: Michael Gothreau
MG>Perhaps I could obtain some intelligent responses from you. Do you have
MG>a theory as to why Christ's tomb has never been located? I know there
MG>are a few sites that have been claimed to be the tomb of Jesus, but
MG>there is apparantly no evidence to prove it. I wonder, what a Christian
MG>who believes in science might have to say about it :-)
Until yesterday, when I got your post, I had never thought about it. If
Jesus
did everything the bible says he did (ressurrection/ascension) then he would
have no need of a tomb. If, on the other hand, he was just a man who somehow
lived through the experience of crucifixtion and got away, he probably died
in
obscurity in some unknow place and his tomb/grave will never be found, anymore
than any other individual grave from 2,000 years ago will be found. Indeed
if
he did die on the cross, was put in the tomb and his followers stole his
body
and hid it in order to establish the empty tomb myth, then we are hardly
likel
y
to find his body.
In any case, I've survive for 37 years as a Christian
without every worrying about it, so I don't think it's important to my beliefs
.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Fredric Rhyce
Sub: New conversation
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:57:10
--------
EID:d00c 1b37b720
MSGID: 1:250/820 2ca269a3
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 830eacc3
Sunday September 19 1993, Fredric Rhyce writes to Lonny Bethany:
FR> He blames "corrupt FidoNet officials" for his getting tossed out never
FR
>
FR> giving a care to the fact that there _are_ no "officials."
What else do you call the creap of a RC18 that has blocked so many attempts
to
remove this creature?
C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Liz Saunders
Sub: Beliefs
Date: 23 Sep 93 10:04:28
--------
EID:ae0f 1b375080
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca1adfc3
Quoth Liz Saunders to Michael Gothreau thusly:
LS> individual grave from 2,000 years ago will be found. Indeed
LS> if he did die on the cross, was put in the tomb and his
LS> followers stole his body and hid it in order to establish
LS> the empty tomb myth, then we are hardly likely to find his
LS> body.
Especially if they took his admonition to 'take, eat, this is my body' a
bit
too literally .
After all, they were the fundament of the fundamentalists by definition
.
It is interesting to note, BTW, that the Webster's New World Dictionary
definition of 'fundament' #2 is the buttocks and #3 is the anus. Hmmmm.....
This means that 'up your fundament' is a legitimate English construct. It
would also mean that 'fundamentalism' is a doctrine that is related to the
anus in some way.
Gotta love this language!
Gee, a new tagline.
... Stick it up your fundament.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Faith
Date: 23 Sep 93 21:56:48
--------
EID:01cd 1b37af00
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530e7
REPLY: 1:247/126 8491653a
Quoth Steve Bedard to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
SB> Do you have evidence that the accounts described in the New
SB> Testament did not happen?
The onus of proof rests with the one claiming the existence of the disputed
thing, not vice versa. It is up to you to offer proof that these things
_did_ take place. Do I really have to drag out my contract analogy yet
again? I have a contract here that says that you owe me $10,000. Prove I
don't ... or pay up.
Why does this have to be dealt with over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?
Why can't you and your cronies get this obvious simple fact through to the
nether-reaches of your minds?
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:02:46
--------
EID:1ec6 1b37b040
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530e3
REPLY: 1:247/126 8491653f
Quoth Steve Bedard to Marilyn Burge thusly:
SB> The prophesies in Isaiah include both the first and second
SB> comings of the Messiah.
Theological question... How many times can a Messiah come?
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Will Of God
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:03:46
--------
EID:1122 1b37b060
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530e4
REPLY: 1:247/126 84916540
Quoth Steve Bedard to Jesse C. Jones thusly:
SB> I agree. Another important step is to get back to the
SB> Bible. Most of the crimes that have been done in the name
SB> of Christianity have been completely against the New
SB> Testament teachings. The Bible reveals God's will for us
SB> and we should be following it.
But you can't because it makes no sense and contradicts itself.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Rusty Naylor
Sub: Behold the God that kills
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:10:40
--------
EID:4790 1b37b140
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530e5
REPLY: 1:388/12 523ca5da
Quoth Rusty Naylor to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
RN> BILLY GRAHAM SISTER TEHERSA MARTIN KING JAMES DOBSON J
RN> VERNON MCGEE BILLY SUNDAY and a million other people you
RN> have never heard of..
RN> GOOD CHRISTIANS ALLL.. And your quotes only prove the
RN> truth of the prophecy AND ON THAT DAY THEY WILL SAY TO MEE
RN> LORD LORD WE PROPHISIED AND HEALD IN YOUR NAME aND Jesus
RN> will say depart from me for I never knew you...
That would be nice. Unfortunately this jesus-thing just won't go away, no
matter how much it is reviled and ridiculed.
Bob Jones, the founder of the christian Bob Jones University, besides being
very obviously humble, stated in Christianity Today (x, no.13, 1 April 1966)
that Billy Graham has done more harm to the cause of christianity than any
man alive.
Is that the BILLY GRAHAM that you are shouting about above?
BTW, you will gain a lot of credibility if you stop shouting (lighten up
of
the CAPS) and learn to spell.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Dogma
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:17:50
--------
EID:9c00 1b37b220
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530ec
REPLY: 1:291/16 2c9e4fac
Quoth Steve Bedard thusly:
SB> As for the Bible being changed for two thousand years, that is
SB> sort of hard since we still have ancient copies of the Bible with
SB> which to compare.
Okay, enough is enough. Follow this exercise very carefully....
1) Get a King James Version of the Bible
2) Read Matthew 19:16ff
3) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
4) Read Mark 10:17f
5) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
6) Read Luke 18:18ff
7) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
8) Compare the three and you will note that they are essentially the same.
9) Now get an NRSV and repeat steps 2 to 7.
10) Compare these three and note that Matthew differs from Mark and Luke.
11) Now get an interlinear Greek/English New Testament.
12) Repeat steps 2 to 7.
13) Note that Matthew differs from Mark and Luke.
The KJV version of Matthew has been unabashedly changed (surely
intentionally) to conform to what Mark and Luke said that Jesus said. Which
'bible' is correct? Which do you trust and believe? Why? If the creators
of
the KJV blatantly lied about what Jesus said how can you trust them to be
accurate in other areas? How do you know what Jesus said? How do you know
that he said anything at all?
This is not some unimportant part of the bible this is in the area of
relating what your son of a god-thing said. Are not his words important
enough to have been written down accurately? Matthew is missing the phrase
'that is God'. This is a key element of the theological idea being
presented, yet it is not included in Matthew. Matthew was written after
(and
probably in great part copied from) Mark. So, since theological development
would be assumed to be more advanced as time progresses (as it is with
Paul's theology in Romans as compared with Galatians), do we assume that
God
is not as important to christianity at the time that Matthew was written?
Since Mark was the basis for Matthew it must have been left out
intentionally by the author of Matthew (unless you claim that the words
of
Jesus could be left out by an oversight). If they were left out by oversight
then they cannot be that important. If the words of Jesus are not important
then where doth christianity rest? More importantly, since the KJV _does_
have the missing words inserted, how can you trust a book that flat out
lied by including in its translation what was not originally there? How
many
other parts of the bible my be thusly contrived?
The bible has changed more times and in more ways than you will ever be
able
to grasp.
You replied once that the Holy Ghost told the disciples what Jesus said.
This is evidence? This is a dream, this is wishful thinking and nothing
more. The bible is not evidence of anything except that some guys knew how
to write 1,900 to 2,500 years ago. What they wrote about was limited by
their understanding and influenced by what they believed was true given
the
lack of any reason to think otherwise. You have more options now, should
you
have the guts to exercise them.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A : 416-422-5723 : Toronto, Canada (eh) : (1:250/664)
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Beliefs
Date: 22 Sep 93 08:14:47
--------
EID:a0fe 1b3641c0
Quoting: Simon Ewins
SE>Quoth Liz Saunders to Michael Gothreau thusly:
LS> individual grave from 2,000 years ago will be found. Indeed
LS> if he did die on the cross, was put in the tomb and his
LS> followers stole his body and hid it in order to establish
LS> the empty tomb myth, then we are hardly likely to find his
LS> body.
SE>Especially if they took his admonition to 'take, eat, this is my body'
a bi
t
SE>too literally .
Don't give the fundies any ideas. They have enough strange ones all on
their
own.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Dogma
Date: 22 Sep 93 08:18:44
--------
EID:cbeb 1b364240
Quoting: Simon Ewins
SE>... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
SE>morons to believe it.
Seems to me you said you were raised Baptist - does your mother know where
you
are?
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 22 Sep 93 08:23:05
--------
EID:565b 1b3642e0
Quoting: Simon Ewins
SE>
SE>Quoth Steve Bedard to Marilyn Burge thusly:
SE>
SE>SB> The prophesies in Isaiah include both the first and second
SE>SB> comings of the Messiah.
SE>
SE>Theological question... How many times can a Messiah come?
I thought "heavy breathing" was the limit of what was allowable for a messiah
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Russ Lopez
Sub: Cow pies
Date: 24 Sep 93 09:12:50
--------
EID:c38e 1b384980
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2f3b23
REPLY: 1:226/120 8489e64a
Quoth Russ Lopez to Dan Ceppa thusly:
RL> Help me out.
Which way did you come in?
RL> Where did the first DNA come from?
Atomic attractions and bonding -> molecules -> nucleic acids -> DNA.
Read some books and stop asking stupid questions. The information is
available if you have the desire (and the guts?) to search for it.
... Get your head out of your fundament.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Liz Saunders
Sub: Dogma
Date: 24 Sep 93 09:27:48
--------
EID:dd57 1b384b60
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2f3b22
Quoth Liz Saunders to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE>... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
SE> morons to believe it.
LS> Seems to me you said you were raised Baptist - does your
LS> mother know where you are?
She probably would have some suggestions as to where I am going.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Oooops!
Date: 24 Sep 93 17:50:22
--------
EID:26fb 1b388e40
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca36b513
REPLY: 1:226/120 8489e647
Jason, my mailer went maniacal on me today for some reason and a message
intended for Steve Bedard went out addressed to you in error. This happened
to a number of messages in a number of areas here from a variety of my
system's users.
Apologies.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Biblical Accuracy
Date: 24 Sep 93 17:54:18
--------
EID:baf5 1b388ec0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca36b514
Quoth Steve Bedard thusly:
SB> As for the Bible being changed for two thousand years, that is
SB> sort of hard since we still have ancient copies of the Bible with
SB> which to compare.
Okay, enough is enough. Follow this exercise very carefully....
1) Get a King James Version of the Bible
2) Read Matthew 19:16ff
3) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
4) Read Mark 10:17f
5) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
6) Read Luke 18:18ff
7) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
8) Compare the three and you will note that they are essentially the same.
9) Now get an NRSV and repeat steps 2 to 7.
10) Compare these three and note that Matthew differs from Mark and Luke.
11) Now get an interlinear Greek/English New Testament.
12) Repeat steps 2 to 7.
13) Note that Matthew differs from Mark and Luke.
The KJV version of Matthew has been unabashedly changed (surely
intentionally) to conform to what Mark and Luke said that Jesus said. Which
'bible' is correct? Which do you trust and believe? Why? If the creators
of
the KJV blatantly lied about what Jesus said how can you trust them to be
accurate in other areas? How do you know what Jesus said? How do you know
that he said anything at all?
This is not some unimportant part of the bible this is in the area of
relating what your son of a god-thing said. Are not his words important
enough to have been written down accurately? Matthew is missing the phrase
'that is God'. This is a key element of the theological idea being
presented, yet it is not included in Matthew. Matthew was written after
(and
probably in great part copied from) Mark. So, since theological development
would be assumed to be more advanced as time progresses (as it is with
Paul's theology in Romans as compared with Galatians), do we assume that
God
is not as important to christianity at the time that Matthew was written?
Since Mark was the basis for Matthew it must have been left out
intentionally by the author of Matthew (unless you claim that the words
of
Jesus could be left out by an oversight). If they were left out by oversight
then they cannot be that important. If the words of Jesus are not important
then where doth christianity rest? More importantly, since the KJV _does_
have the missing words inserted, how can you trust a book that flat out
lied by including in its translation what was not originally there? How
many
other parts of the bible may be thusly contrived?
The bible has changed more times and in more ways than you will ever be
able
to grasp.
You replied once that the Holy Ghost told the disciples what Jesus said.
This is evidence? This is a dream, this is wishful thinking and nothing
more. The bible is not evidence of anything except that some guys knew how
to write 1,900 to 2,500 years ago. What they wrote about was limited by
their understanding and influenced by what they believed was true given
the
lack of any reason to think otherwise. You have more options now, should
you
have the guts to exercise them.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A : 416-422-5723 : Toronto, Canada (eh) : (1:250/664)
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: All
Sub: Oooops!
Date: 24 Sep 93 17:56:28
--------
EID:ebf0 1b388f00
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca36b516
I haven't yet figured out why but my mailer decided to send copies of
messages I entered this morning to both parties named in the original
message. I have managed to catch and prevent all but a couple from leaving
my system but some may have slipped through. If you have duplicates from
me
to two individuals... mea culpa.
Apologies to all for wasting disk space.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Re: Listing Ron Stringfellow's faults
Date: 24 Sep 93 18:03:18
--------
EID:2cdc 1b389060
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca36b517
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 9e523400
Quoth Hector Plasmic to Marilyn Burge thusly:
MB> I'm having a bit of a "discussion" with a literalist at work.
MB> He's an ex-supervisor of mine -- Jehovah's Witness. His claim is that
MB> Methusalah DID live to be 936 years old.
Actually the biblical claim is for 969 years so he would appear to have
even
gotten that wrong. (Ref. Genesis 5:27)
You might want to suggest that if he intends to believe the damn book he
should first read it.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A : 416-422-5723 : Toronto, Canada (eh) : (1:250/664)
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--------
From: Matt Robins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 09 Dec 93 08:04:00
--------
EID:ad33 1b894080
MSGID: 1:102/943.0 2d074c70
==> Steve Bedard continued his crusade on 12-3-93 with HP <==
SB>HP> SB>Matthew 16:26 "What good... yet forfeits his soul?"
SB>HP>See? Got any evidence for this "soul" thing? Any at all?
SB>It is all based on faith. I am not required to provide evidence for
any
SB>of this. Believe or don't believe. It's up to you.
Steve,
You cannot say that. It *isn't* as arbitrary as you indicate.
You are not totally free to believe or not believe anything;
that would be irrational, superstitious, or plain dumb.
You cannot _just_ believe in things that do not exist, thus
forcing them into existence with no further evidence required.
That's insanity.
You cannot believe that you are Napoleon. You cannot believe
that if "the voices" are telling you to do something wrong, then
it's required of you to do it. You cannot believe that the
earth is flat, the sun rises in the West, or that 1+2=5.
It is *not* "all based on faith." That's NewAge garbage!
Your loose thinking shows itself repeatedly: a lot of the
things you say (AIDS prevention was the subject of this thread)
may be right, but for the wrong reasons. The only way to
correct this is for you to exercise some discipline over your
thinking.
Matt
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Yeah, riiight! God created OLD fossils, did He??
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Heathen inability to make moral judgments
Date: 08 Dec 93 14:32:31
--------
EID:8744 1b887400
JCJ> I guess you missed it, Stephen. A loud chorus of evangelical
JCJ> heathens here, including the Rice Brothers, Sean McWhatever, and
JCJ> several others, labeled the idea that the former Soviet Union was
JCJ> "evil" as an invention of US Religious leaders, and proclaimed that
the
JCJ> USA is every bit as evil as the USSR was.
It is. Or do you think slavery was righteous? How about how we treated
the Amerinds? The Soviets had Afghanistan, we had Korea and Vietnam.
Please prove to me that we ARE any different, righteousness wise.
... Is it live or is it Holodeck?
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: did you hear the latest?
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:40:43
--------
EID:6dab 1b889500
AA> Go to a born-again bookstore and look up the ravings of an idiot
AA> called Phil Phillips...he's got a great book or two on the same
AA> subject. Makes me wanna watch "He-Man" till I can't see straight.
AA> (yuk yuk) And DON'T get me started on my copy of A CHRISTIAN RESPONSE
AA> TO DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS...
NF> The anti-rpg
ML> "Anti-rpg"? Anti-Rocket Propelled Grenade?
ML> Great. Next thing you know, they'll make us wait 5 days
ML> before we can purchase a gun.
Don't get me started... 8-}
Role playing games...
... I spell knife with an "n". - Picard
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: did you hear the latest?
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:41:44
--------
EID:65e8 1b889520
AA> Go to a born-again bookstore and look up the ravings of an idiot
AA> called Phil Phillips...he's got a great book or two on the same
AA> subject. Makes me wanna watch "He-Man" till I can't see straight.
AA> (yuk yuk) And DON'T get me started on my copy of A CHRISTIAN RESPONSE
AA> TO DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS...
AA>
NF> The anti-rpg idiocy is ludicrous in the extreme... I will look for
NF> that book... should be good for many a good laugh.
AA> The Phillips book is published by Oliver-Nelson. Phil Baby also has
a
AA> newsletter, which can be obtained by writing to Child Affects, P.O.
AA> Box 68, Rockwall, TX 75087.
Thanks. Info saved.
... It's the blue parrot Cafe, and you're buying. - Picard
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:46:07
--------
EID:4409 1b889dc0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d4
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> I believe that totally . And I can prove it too .
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Hehehe... ;)
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> Uh huh... I hate fundies of all stripes, to be honest. Especially ones
> that claim they're not ;)
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Same here... People just have to open their minds a little... :)
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> You got it. I figure why should I bother trying to prove something to
> someone who wouldn't believe it if he held it in his hand? Fundies
> don't believe the
> truth, even if it's solid and they're standing in it .
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
A waste of time... :)
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I defend my (and your) right to believe as
> you will, so long as you're not murdering anyone or something .
> I think that children under the age of majority should be disallowed
> from religious congregations, though... Let them read about it if they
> will, but make it illegal to teach them in school or at home, until
> they're old enough to make up their own minds.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I disagree there... I mean, if anyone is going to change their beliefs,
they'
ll change their beliefs. I was raised as fundy Christian (Methodist, to
be ex
act), but I'm certainly not that anymore... :)
-dan-
(It's too bad Theseus left you on that island...)
(Sorry, I had to say it...mythology class. )
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:48:08
--------
EID:4409 1b889e00
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d5
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> Dan, it's okay... he's a fundie and an athiest. We have to make
> allowances for them, you know ...
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Hehehhe... Maybe we should make some "special" schools for them...
Next thing we know, they'll be demanding equal (read: special) rights, their
o
wn interest groups, seats in Congress and high-level company positions...
Blegh.
-dan-
Fight the War
Fuck the Norm
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:51:09
--------
EID:6809 1b889e60
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d6
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> DS>1. Outrageous is a matter of opinion.
>
> Ariadne said:
>
> A>I've had some pretty interesting experiences with Goddess...
> A>physical manifestations and stuff like that .
>
> Physical manifestations of godlets is outrageous. Doubt it? Provide
> the evidence.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Outrageous means unbelievable. She believes it, so it's obviously believable.
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> DS>2. Requests for evidence? Yes. Attacks on one's credibility? No.
>
> Hector said:
>
> HP>Evidence, please, or stop flinging the bullshit as fact rather than
> HP>opinion. Thanks.
>
> Want to rephrase now, Dan?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No. Bullshit: ie., a total farce. In stating that her statements were
'bulls
hit', you were saying that she was lying, and therefore, that she was a
liar a
nd a fake.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Erin Corliss
Sub: .
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:54:10
--------
EID:6c4e 1b889ec0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d7
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Erin Corliss Said: ]-----
> But anyway, to my point. I've seen statistics that say more than 80%
> of
> people who claim to be Christian don't go to church. There isn't a
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Church is an optional practice....
-----[ First Erin Corliss Said: ]-----
> of churches, is there? No. And which is a better indicator of belief,
> what people do or what people say? If there was a car thief out there
> who
> swore that he believed car thieving was the ultimate sin, but he stole
> a
> car every day, I think your average bible banger would agree he was
> either insane or he didn't really believe in what he was saying. If we
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
They aren't going out and killing or performing polygamy or anything every
day
...at least not -most- of them.
-----[ First Erin Corliss Said: ]-----
> apply this logic to the question of how many people really believe in
> God, it becomes pretty goddamned clear that most "Christians" are
> >>ATHEISTS<< inside, doesn't it?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, it just shows they aren't dedicated to their "religion", and really
haven'
t soul-searched. At least that's my experience. If they would search themsel
ves, they would probably join more "logical" religions, such as atheism,
agnos
ticism, buddhism, wicca, or other "nature" oriented religions.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:57:11
--------
EID:bdfe 1b889f20
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d8
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Styx Allum Said: ]-----
> 1.) This is an international Fido echo.
> As such, there are no "private" messages.
> When you post here, it is open to anyone.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
As I've said a MILLION times... ... I understand that. But he had
not
listened to other points she had made. He reminded me of a debator who
only r
eplied to a portion of their opponet's statement, rather than the basis
of the
belief.
-----[ First Styx Allum Said: ]-----
> 2.) Hector's request for evidence is not out of order here,
> as HolySmoke is a religion debunking echo.
> All dogmatic claims made here are open to scrutiny,
> as are claims of anti-dogma.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I tend to classify a request as:
"Can you please give some proof, rather than making broad-based, individualist
ic comments."
rather than:
"Stop flinging the bullshit blah blah blah..."
I understand that this is holy-SMOKE-, but still, he should at least have
the
decency to ask rather than demand, by attacking her credibility.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:00:12
--------
EID:43c2 1b88a000
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d9
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> There may be an infinite regression of questions, but there is also an
> infinite regression of answers...one for every question. We may not
> know the answers, but they must exist otherwise the question would be
> invalid. For example, why does X do Y? If no answer exists then X
> does not do Y. We may not know the answers for every valid question,
> but they must necessarily exist. It is up to us to become curious for
> the answers.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Exactly. There are answers, it's just that we probably won't sit down for
a f
ew years to figure it out...
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> Only within current human limitations.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Exactly.
Later!
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> * Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Cool ass song... Saw them live a week ago... Wild concert... :)
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Matt Coleman
Sub: kill niggers now
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:02:13
--------
EID:7c61 1b88a040
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029da
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Matt Coleman Said: ]-----
> I hate niggers. Kill em all now!
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No.
I have better things to do than ruin my life with a murder charge.
Get a grip. Deal with it.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Robert Curry
Sub: EVERYONE SHUT UP!
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:04:14
--------
EID:5e70 1b88a080
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029db
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> DS> Yes, they should, until they infringe on others' rights.
>
> So go hide in your little dream world where no one ever speaks up
> for fear of possibly offending someone who can't stand questions.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Questions are fine. Vicious attacks and insults prove (and disprove) nothing.
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> I respect their right to have them _and_ I challenge them.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
As long as you don't openly state that their beliefs are "bullshit" (ahem,
Hec
tor), then there's nothing wrong with questioning their beliefs. As long
as y
ou do it objectively.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Robert Curry
Sub: You laughed... {sob!}
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:07:15
--------
EID:d4f3 1b88a0e0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029dc
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> And laughing some more. Is it his fault that she's a fuckin' hoot?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, it's his fault that he's completely intolerant of anyone who believes
diff
erently.
(by the way, I think it's a "fuckin' hoot" that you are so stuck on your
own b
eliefs that everything else is wrong... Sounds like someone isn't searching
f
or truth, just something to base an attack on.)
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> Separates it from your never-never land of bunnies and light, perhaps.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Someone's eating mushrooms here. Stop making up bullshit and DEAL WITH
IT.
-dan-
Attacks are nothing but a way of coping with INSECURITIES.
Someone's just afraid of being wrong.
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Greg Gentry
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Demon Barney
Date: 08 Dec 93 00:58:07
--------
EID:6615 1b880740
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d05b33e
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting David Rice to Steve Quarrella <=-
>SQ>DB> From the November 26 Chicago Tribune:
>SQ>DB>
>SQ>DB> Barney a demon?
>SQ>DB>
>SQ>DB> [cuts] Rev. Joseph Chambers says ... "Barney is teaching kids
>SQ>DB> that we must accept everyone as they are--- whether they're
>SQ>DB> homosexuals or lesbians."
DR>
DR> Homosexuals -OR- lesbians?!
Gotta love them fundies. We have a preacher here in Kansas named Fred
Phelps, which 20/20 (or one of those evening news magazines) called one
of the scariest men they had ever met, he often has supporters who carry
signs that decry "bull dikes". I guess they have something against levies
for cattle.
... WARNING! Removal of this tagline prohibited by law!
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Greg Gentry
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 08 Dec 93 00:58:08
--------
EID:688f 1b880740
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d05b33f
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting David Rice to Steve Bedard <=-
DR> with: Fredric Rice
FR>FR>> Scientific method has killed your deities.
FR>FR> God is dead, Steve. Science has killed it.
SB> Thanks for reposting. The above comments strongly suggest
SB> that you are saying science disproves the existence of God[sic].
SB> Earlier, people demanded that I give an example of someone
SB> saying that science has disproved the existence of God[sic].
SB> Thanks for doing the work for me.
DR>
DR> And I hereby apologize to you, Steve, for saying you were lying.
DR> I missed the above messages from Fredric that implies that science
DR> has "disproven" god. [Though he said "killed it," not disproven.]
DR> Science cannot prove gods do not exist--- maybe Fredric meant that
DR> science has demonstrated that there is no need to invoke gods as
DR> explanations for the observable: that's death to any idea. Instead
DR> of me second-guessing what he ment, I suppose I could ask him. :-)
Nietzesche, #125, from _The Gay Science_
"The Madman" Have you heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright
morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly, "I seek God!
I seek God!" As many of those who do not believe in God were standing around
just then, he provoked much laughter. Why, did he get lost? said one.
Did
he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid
of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they yelled and laughed.
The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his glances.
"Whither is God" he cried. "I shall tell you. WE HAVE KILLED HIM--you
and
I. All of us are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we
able
to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon?
What did we do when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it
movin
g
now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging
continually? Backward, sideward, foreward, in all directions? Is there
any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing?
Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is
not
night and more night coming on all the while? Must not lanterns be lit
in
the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers
who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition?
Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed
him.
How shall we, the murderers of all murderers, comfort ourselves? What was
holiest and most powerful of all that the world has yet owned has bled to
deat
h
under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there
for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games
shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for
us? Must not we ourselves become gods simply to seem worthy of it? There
has never been a greater deed; and whoever will be born after us--for the
sake
of this deed he will be part of a higher history than all history hitherto."
Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they
too were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his
lantern on the ground, and it broke and went out. "I come too early,"
he said then; "my time has not come yet. This tremendous even is still
on
its way, still wandering--it has not yet reached the ears of man. Lightning
and thunder require time, the light of the stars requires time, deeds require
time even after they are done, before they can be seen and heard. This
deed
is still more distant from them the most distant stars--AND YET THEY HAVE
DONE IT THEMSELVES."
It has been related further that on that same day they madman entered divers
church and there sang his _requiem aeternam deo_. Led out and called to
account, he is said to have replied each time, "What are these churches
now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"
... "I wasn't privy to the exact moment of coupling. . . ." - Data
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 08 Dec 93 11:52:02
--------
EID:10ce aa0ad8c2
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ab0b1a6d
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet aa8d260e
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> dr> I think that World War Two was the only war that
> dr> America was justified in fighting.
> ab> And we wouldn't have had to fight that one, were it not for our
> ab> unjustified involvement in the first world war.
> Just curious: How so?
It ought to be clear that had Germany not been virtually crushed by WWI,
the G
erman people would have had no inclination to follow Hitler; his party appeale
d to the German peoples' desperation. To that extent it is obvious that
we br
ought about WWII. However, it might be argued that we had to get involved
in
WWI, so we can be absolved on that score. In a sense, that's true. We
lent a
n awful lot of money, and sold an awful lot of military goods on credit,
to th
e British and the French. Had Germany won, we'd have had to kiss all that
cas
h goodbye.
As a moral issue, however, there was nothing in particular to recommend
either
side over the other. Considering how badly things were going for all of
the
warring parties by the later stages of the war, it is quite possible that
they
would have arranged some sort of truce without U.S. intervention. Any such
tr
uce would have been far more favorable to Germany, of course, but given
the Ge
rman government at that time, there was no reason to fear such a result,
and a
gain it would have prevented the rise of the Nazis.
Alternatively, had Germany actually defeated the French, annexation had
not be
en a tradition in European warfare prior to that point, and I know of no
evide
nce that that is what the Germans were seeking (note that France declared
war
on Germany, not the other way around). Most likely, Germany would have
treate
d the French like the allied powers treated Germany; it would have taken
some
land, disarmed the French military, and otherwise allowed France to continue
t
o govern itself. Had France fallen, the British and Italians would surely
hav
e given up the war.
No matter how you slice it, without U.S. intervention you don't get much
notic
able harm to Europe, and you don't get the rise of Hitler. Further, had
the G
ermans retained the land they took from Russia when Lenin basically surrendere
d, Stalin would have had a considerably less powerful nation under his control
.
Indeed, if one wished to speculate wildly, it might have been possible after
s
uch a war to persuade the Germans to support the whites in Russia, as the
Amer
icans did in actual history. Had the whites defeated the reds, instead
of the
other way around, we wouldn't have had Stalin's purges.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: David Rice
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 08 Dec 93 12:02:03
--------
EID:10ce aa0ad8c3
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ab0b1a6e
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d0511ec
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> It's true that America was strangling Japan
> economically and
> militarily (dictating the allowable size of Japan's
> military, if I
> recall my high-school history class correctly). I
> really hate to
> admit it, but I think that America's involvement in
> WWII was the
> only way to prevent even greater death and destruction
> later on,
> with North America hosting the war, and not Europe. In
> other words,
> a little preventative butchery and genocide.
More importantly, the U.S. was about to cut off exports of steel to Japan
when
WWII started. Japan had no other source of steel. Other historical elements
can be used to explain, though less clearly justify, Japan's behavior.
Remem
ber the Russo-Japanese war. The Russians attacked Japan without provocation.
The Japanese whipped their asses. A consortium of America and assorted
Europ
ean powers then stepped in and forced Japan to give back anything they had
tak
en from Russia, and accept a peace that was basically the former status
quo. E
uropean powers never treated their own enemies like that; look at what they
di
d to Germany after WWI. If Japan treated America and Europe with distrust,
ev
en hatred, it had some reason.
Still, the war against Japan can perhaps be seen as not America's fault.
It's
the war against Germany that I was more concerned with. Certainly Hitler
had
to be stopped, but he ought never to have started, and were it not for Americ
a's unjustified intervention in WWI, he would never have started.
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--------
From: Greg Gentry
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 08 Dec 93 13:15:51
--------
EID:97b9 1b8869e0
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d066026
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting David Rice to Keith Rockhold <=-
KR> Total war means that you do every thing you can in order to win
KR> that war including the killing of civilians.
DR>
DR> Conventional bombs could have destroyed the target (ball-bearing
DR> factories). No need to take tens of thousands of people out with it.
DR> The intent was to demoralize the fighters by destroying their
DR> families at home (same as America does today).
KR> In total war there are no civilians and most assuredly in 1945
KR> Japan there WERE NO CIVILIANS.
DR>
DR> So a two-year-old child is a combatent?
I apologize, I missed the original post, but want to respond to what Keith
Rockhold said. He is wrong when he says that in war everyone is a combatant.
International law has grown _Jus in bello_ laws that include the principles
of discrimination or noncombatant immunity that restrict military targets
and supplies in an effort to portect innocent civilians. The international
laws are listed in an incomplete form here:
1. No attacking of unarmed enemies.
2. No use of forbidden arms or munitions
3. No firing on undefended localities without military significance
4. No improper use or destruction of privileged (exempt, immune) buildings
for military purposes. [this means no bombing of embassies]
5. No poisoning streams or wells
6. No pillaging
7. No killing or wounding military personnel who have surrendered or are
disabled by wounds or sickness
8. No ill-treating prisoners of war
9. No assassinating or hiring of assassins
10. No compelling the inhabitants of occupied enemy territory to furnish
information about the armed forces of the enemy or his means of defense.
11. No bombarding from the air to terrorize or attack civilian populations
[!]
12. No attacking enemy vessels that have indicated their surrender by
lowering their flag
13. No destroying civilian cultural objects and places of worship
We obviously were thinking about some of these rules when we decided on
Nagasaki and Hiroshima, particularly number 13, so one has to wonder why
we ignored number 1 and 11?
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Greg Gentry
To: David Strickland
Sub: Re: PILTDOWN MAN
Date: 08 Dec 93 13:15:52
--------
EID:37d4 1b8869e0
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d066027
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting David Strickland to Fredric Rice <=-
DS> Straightened out my brother about the Noahs Ark hoax, and he for one
DS> didn't violently deny that the "flood" was really a large Local flood,
DS> and after further discussion agreed that Noah's Ark and the whole flood
DS> story was mostly a folk tale passed down generations (and having been
DS> done was changed) of that one specific flood. Mom, Dad, and Sister
DS> still believe that the flood really happened (Dad even believes the
DS> Vapor Canopy shit).
My favorite Ark myth is the one that says they found the high water mark
on Mount Ararat. Obviously forgetting that the flood "covered all the land"
and there wouldn't be a "high water mark". Sometimes you have to wonder
what these people think about when they come up with this junk.
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Joseph Britt
To: Brian Shreve
Sub: THE BIBLE IS THE WORD
Date: 07 Dec 93 15:04:00
-----