God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Dogma
Date: 18 Sep 93 10:45:16
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EID:7c1c 1b3255a0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e850
REPLY: 1:247/126 820c27c7
Quoth Steve Bedard to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
FR> Why do you insist to believe that creationism is a theory?
SB> Because it is a hypothesis that many people believe is true.
Many more people also govern their lives according to astrological
'analysis' as well. Therefore astrology has the same veracity as your belief
in a god-thing?
Do you take the virgin birth as a biological statement about Mary or a
theological statement about Jesus?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: One God
Date: 18 Sep 93 10:47:34
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EID:5e03 1b3255e0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e84c
REPLY: 1:247/126 820c27ce
Quoth Steve Bedard to Dan Ceppa thusly:
SB> The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God. Angels are not
SB> gods.
Do angels live forever?
Are they not referred to as 'sons of god'?
A son of a god is surely a god.
BTW who was the angels' mother?
Do you believe in dragons?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: New Testament
Date: 18 Sep 93 11:03:58
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EID:af2c 1b325860
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e84d
REPLY: 1:247/126 820c27cf
Quoth Steve Bedard to Robert Curry thusly:
SB> Just because John does not mention Mary and Salome does not
SB> mean that he is saying that she was alone. As for sunrise,
SB> I don't think it matters exactly what time they arrived at
SB> the tomb. That does not disprove that these events took
SB> place.
You have an automobile accident. One witness states that he saw two people
drag you out of the car but can't identify them because it was dark. Another
witness states that you got out of the car on your own and because of the
brightness of the early morning sun he is positive that there was no one
who
helped you.
Do I have any grounds to question whether or not this accident really took
place? I suggest that I do. Further, even you would find the above to be
somewhat confusing. No?
SB> These contradictions do have explanations.
No more satisfactory than your explanation of the above car accident might
be. They are explanations that only serve if one believes that the outcome
must be true at all costs. Including a suspension of disbelief that would
make Walt Disney proud.
SB> I still have not seen that the New Testament is wrong.
And you never will. More's the pity.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 18 Sep 93 11:14:54
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EID:1ec6 1b3259c0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e851
REPLY: 1:247/126 820c27d0
Quoth Steve Bedard to Robert Curry thusly:
SB> If this is true why would the Apostles claim that Jesus was
SB> born of Virgin Birth and quote Isaiah also? Surely they
SB> and the people they were preaching to would know the true
SB> meaning of that verse.
Precious Paul doesn't. See Romans 1:3. Paul states that Jesus was born 'of
the seed of David according to the flesh' and was only '_declared_' to be
the son of god.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Lonnie Branch
Sub: Jesus
Date: 18 Sep 93 11:23:52
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EID:34d6 1b325ae0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9b0e84f
REPLY: 1:123/40 5236d0a6
Quoth Lonnie Branch to Martin Goldberg thusly:
> We don't hate anyone that got nailed up on a cross as a joke.
> Waht we do hate is the ignorance that makew people believe
> that attendant fables.
LB> Beware the antichrist. (jn 1&2)
Turn on the light. Monsters in closets disappear very quickly if you do.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: God *does* Exist!
Date: 17 Sep 93 09:22:50
--------
EID:27f6 1b314ac0
Quoting: Hector Plasmic
SB>This will be fulfilled during the thousand year reign of Christ as
SB>described in Revelation.
LS>Revelation is probably drug induced and therefore highly suspect.
HP>ROFL! The whole bible is highly suspect wherever it deviates from what
HP>we could expect to be possibly correct from observing reality.
I just borrowed a Catholic bible from a friend of mine and the introduction
before Revelation states: "it must be understood first and foremost as
a trac
t
for the times, written to increase the hope and determination of the Church
on
earth in a period of disturbance and bitter persecution, and prophesying
the
certain downfall and destruction of the Roman Imperial power." I have to
admit that I was more than a little surprised to discover that the Catholics
had such a realistic grip on what Revelation was. No prophesy of _our_
future
,
no great mystery, just like a pep rally for the troups at the end of the
1st
century.
HP>--- Tear a new one
HP>* Origin: Fundy^10 = nothing at all. (1:380/16)
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From: Bob Parry
To: Lou Dripkin
Sub: Never Again
Date: 20 Sep 93 12:54:00
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EID:e064 1b3466c0
MSGID: 1:250/102.0 2c9de028
Lou Dripkin uttered these words
I used to be a Regular Joe, just like you. I never thought
that I was the sort of guy that could get addicted to
anyting. Yeah, I did go to a political rallies here and
htere, but I stayed away fromt he really ahrd stuff. I'm
just not cut out to be that sort of person.
to the service. When it was over, I wanted more, so I ran
to the pulpit and held the gun on the preacher and made him
give me more religion. this time it would be free.
Afterwards, high on Jesus, I ran fromt he church and got
into my car and drove off. I must have been doing about 90
and weaving in and out of traffic as a cop pulled me over.
I treid to act calm, but the silly grin spra\ead all over
my face. Then the cops checked my tags and I was arrested
for holding up the church and driving under the influence
of a bible.
Now I ma in rehab and see the error of my ways. My wife visits me every
s
often, and when I get out, we plan to move away and make a
new life for ourselves.
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I am
here to tell you, that you are not alone. [That sounds like I
have been watching too much Donahue] There are a lot of people
who have had similar experiences. Some have run afoul of the law
because of the intensity, others have narrowly escaped.
It wasn't that long ago that I would have described
myself as being a hard-line, right-wing, conservative,
fundamental, evangelical Christian. In those days, I didn't want
anyone to mistake me for being some sappy liberal. In my case, I
took pride in being a conservative. In my mind, God was a
conservative, so that was what I had to be in order to be like
God.
My morals were clear and inflexible. In my world there
was no such thing as a grey area, or an area of possible
discussion. Everything had an absolute value and I was
determined to discover it and act accordingly.
For the first fifteen years of my Christian experience I
was a man in desperate need of inner healing, the kind that God
does quietly and most of the time, slowly. For the last five
years, I have been seeking a means by which that healing can take
place.
The reason that I need this healing is because I am a
survivor of sexual abuse when I was a child and emotional abuse,
that to a lesser degree, still continues today. My father has
been the person who has carried out the emotional abuse, among
others. There have been well-meaning Christian people who have
intended to help, but ended up hurting me more than if they had
left me alone. I have been to therapy groups, parachurch
ministries, been under the "authority" of various churches and
pastors, had support groups in churches and support networks of
people from various churches who tried to help. All of this
within the fundamentalist camp. All of it was designed to change
me into an image they believed to be like Christ. All of it
resulted in increasing my dependency upon other people when I
really needed to learn to be independent and more depenedent upon
God.
Even though most Baptists would shriek at the very
utterance of the thought, I have discovered that there is at
least as much religiosity and formalism in Baptist churches as
there is in the Roman Catholic realm. The only real difference,
in my mind, is that in Roman Catholic churches, they are far more
open about their religiosity. Baptists, at least the ones with
whom I have had contact, make all sorts of attempts at disguising
their religiosity.
At the moment, I am loosely connected with an Anglican
church in Toronto. The minister has been so very good with me.
There is no pressure placed upon me to "get with the program" or
anything like that. In fact, he is willing to allow me to
rediscover God without the claptrap with which I was burdened in
fundamentalist, evangelical realms. Healing and learning are
taking place. It is a bit different than many Christians might
expect, but I know God is at work in my life, even apart from
religion.
Bob Parry 09/20/93 12:54:08
___
TLX v3.00 Friends come in when others go out.
-- SPEED 1.20 [NR]:
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Bob Parry
To: All
Sub: Biblical Sexuality 1/2
Date: 20 Sep 93 13:49:02
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EID:ca68 1b346e20
MSGID: 1:250/102.0 2c9ded0e
As I am rather new to this conference, I will introduce
myself. I am 39 years old, single and a fourth year political
science student at York University in Toronto. I came to know
Christ about 20 years ago through a school friend of mine who was
attending a small Baptist church northwest of Toronto. At one
time I believed God was calling me into ministry, so I spent
three years in Bible college and seven years in lay ministry.
Eventually, I realized that God had other plans for me so I began
searching for them. I believe I am somewhat closer to
discovering what God desires for me in life now than I was a few
years ago. The Christian life is pretty much a battle in my
mind, but it is one worth fighting. Enough about me, on with the
subject at hand.
There is likely no subject that causes more concern and
confusion among Christians than that of sexuality. One of the
reasons why I believe it has become so confusing is because lust
has been misunderstood. For many Christians, lust embraces all
sexual thought or feeling. It is the scope of that definition
that I believe is flawed. This message is an analytical message
and is not intended to be a reflection upon my life or that of
any other Christian. I will accept as being axiomatic that some
Christians will disagree with the definition of lust I will offer
and with my conclusions. I will not argue from Greek or Hebrew,
nor will I engage in debate over versions of the Bible.
There will be three premises upon which my argument
rests. The first premise is that sexuality has been given to
humankind by God. The second premise is that God intends for
humankind to enjoy sex and the third premise is that sexuality is
a part of the human being which develops throughout life.
The working definition of lust that I will offer is: lust
occurs when a person focuses upon one element of a thing or a
person to the exclusion of other parts or characteristics which
would otherwise give balance.
Most of us are familiar with images of people who are
driven by the desire for achievement. These are people who work
extra hours/jobs to accumulate more things, both needed and for
leisure. These are the people who are so focused upon one goal
that virtually all other things fall by the wayside. There is no
sacrifice too great or price too high for them. Obtaining the
goal is the ultimate. Whatever their goal may be, power, money,
material possessions, status, or a goal that is entirely
personal, these people are totally driven toward it.
Sexual lust is pretty much the same. In the case of
sexual lust, the goal is sexual pleasure and satisfaction. There
are various means that people use to obtain this gratification.
Some people seek fulfillment through unstable relationships.
These provide the sexual gratification they desire without the
extra baggage inherent in long-term committed relationships.
Others seek this sexual gratification vicariously through
pornography. Others may be more imaginative and create their own
means of obtaining this sexual pleasure. The problem with each
of the above choices is that they characterize sexuality in an
imbalanced manner. The focus is personal gratification, not a
balanced relationship with the other person that recognizes the
other characteristics, talents and abilities of one's significant
other.
If lust is focusing upon one element of sexuality to the
exclusion of other elements which would give balance, what about
sexual thoughts? Are all sexual thoughts wrong, even if they
encompass relational elements? It is my opinion that it is not
wrong. My first premise was that sexuality was given to
humankind by God. If sexuality is a gift from God, then how can
it be wrong to meditate upon such a gift? The answer is that it
becomes wrong when the focus of our thoughts are imbalanced.
Fantasies are synonomous with sexual thoughts. In the
twenty years I have been a Christian, I have never heard anyone
discuss fantasies in a rational manner. The vast majority of
Christians identify all sexual fantasies as being sinful and the
discussion ends at that point. I think that is superficial and
has led to a great deal of misinformation, doubt, fear and
needless guilt about sexual thought.
One's fantasy world is often characterized as a dark,
foggy place, full of demons and gremlins lurking about to devour
the Christian. I would like to offer a different paradigm. I
would like to think of the fantasy world as a workshop for
information that we receive, be it sexual or otherwise. It is
virtually the only place where we can evaluate information in
absolute security. We can accept or discard information with
total impunity as no one needs to know about this world of ours.
continued in next message...
Bob Parry 09/20/93 13:48:25
___
X TLX v3.00 X Alex, I'll take "Things Only I Know" for $200.
---
X SPEED 1.20 [NR] X
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Bob Parry
To: All
Sub: Biblical Sexuality 2/2
Date: 20 Sep 93 14:05:04
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EID:ca98 1b3470a0
MSGID: 1:250/102.0 2c9df0d0
The third premise, which I stated in my previous message,
was that sexuality is an element of the human being that
develops. If this is true, then it is not true that our
sexuality is inherent. We cannot have inherent sexuality that is
also learned. The two are mutually exclusive.
One of the more predominant theories of behavioral
learning in psychology is that we learn from role models. If
this is actually true, then the fantasy world is a very important
workplace for various models which are presented to us from early
childhood to the end of life. This raises another point that is
often either misstated or ignored altogether. Sexuality is
fluid. While most people make concrete decisions, consiously or
unconsciously, our concepts of people and sexual relationships
change constantly.
It is important to note that I have merely offered
another paradigm for the fantasy world. I haven't said that it
is either good or bad. In fact, I think that is more good than
bad, but it can become bad if it gets out of control. Again, the
point of balance.
Sexual thoughts or fantasies often lead to sexual
expression. Of all the forms of sexual expression available,
none is more common than masturbation. Many people, both
Christian and non-Christian, experience a range of feelings, from
discomfort when the subject is mentioned, to guilt, shame and
even remorse. There are probably as many reasons for this
subjective guilt as there are people who experience it. The
reason that I raise the issue of masturbation is that for a large
percentage of the Christian population, it has been one of the
issues shrouded in silence, somewhat condemned and left to the
individual Christian to attempt to handle. Very few of us have
been able to deal with it effectively. The most common, and
perhaps the easiest, response is to tag it as sinful and either
attempt to eradicate it from one's life or hope that it goes away
after marriage. It is my belief that this is a perfectly
legitimate form of sexual expression and if it is not compulsive
or obsessive, it is neither sinful nor harmful.
Of course, the issue of sexuality cannot be discussed
adequately in one or two messages. I have but skimmed the
surface of an issue that needs attention.
Bob Parry 09/20/93 14:05:28
___
X TLX v3.00 X XXXXXXXX IN STEREO WHERE AVAILABLE XXXXXXXX
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X SPEED 1.20 [NR] X
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: God *does* Exist!
Date: 18 Sep 93 07:06:49
--------
EID:a334 1b3238c0
Quoting: Steve Bedard
SB>LS>Revelation is probably drug induced and therefore highly suspect.
SB>
SB>Evidence?
Ernest P. Janzen, Religious Studies, University of Toronto
John C. Meagher, Religious Studies, University of Toronto
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: God *does* Exist!
Date: 20 Sep 93 20:50:12
--------
EID:73fb 1b34a640
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9e4ea43
Quoth Liz Saunders to Steve Bedard thusly:
SB>LS>Revelation is probably drug induced and therefore highly suspect.
SB>
SB>Evidence?
LS> Ernest P. Janzen, Religious Studies, University of Toronto
LS> John C. Meagher, Religious Studies, University of Toronto
You could also check out John Allegro's book 'The Sacred Mushroom and the
Cross".
Revelation 2:17 refers to 'hidden' manna, described as 'a small white
stone'. Why the word 'hidden'? The phrase at the end of the verse 'which
no
man knoweth saving he that receiveth it' sounds rather secretive as well.
When opium was eaten at the time that revelation was written the form that
it took was as a small white stone, quite chewy but solid.
Revelation 10:9 refers to an angel giving the narrator a 'little book'.
Pages in many scrolls and books were made of hemp. The processing of hemp
2,000 years ago for paper and other products was not sophisticated enough
to
remove all of the THC, as today's processing does. Eating a 'little book'
that will 'make thy belly bitter, but make thy mouth as sweet as honey'
can
easily be compared to the experience of eating hashish or other hemp related
products.
More than this, read it. Look at the imagery and compare it to common
accounts of images reported by opium eaters, peyote eaters and hash eaters.
Many Aztec priests report startlingly similar images after eating peyote.
There is a huge level of support for the idea of either drug or deprivation
induced ecstasy as an influence on the writing of Revelation.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bible
Date: 21 Sep 93 09:51:52
--------
EID:a684 1b354e60
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171cd
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ce6
Quoth Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> All of them. One does not normally punish someone for not doing
SE> anything wrong, does one?
SB> He was not punished by James. It was all show, to please
SB> the Jews.
CEATC
Right.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Holy Spirit
Date: 21 Sep 93 09:54:18
--------
EID:4222 1b354ec0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171ce
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ce9
Quoth Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them know wh
SE> Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he sweated
SE> You don't suppose that someone just made that bit up for dramatic eff
SE> you?
SB> You are going to hate this answer. The Holy Spirit told
SB> them what happened.
In other words, it doesn't make sense to you either. So, as with all
christians, when there is no answer; conjure up a ghost. What a pitiful
way
to conduct one's life and intellectual affairs.
In the following, 'God' is used to indicate the 'God' referred to in the
OT
and the NT. That is, Yahweh or Eloham or YHWH or El or whatever name he
may
be referred to by.
Do you believe that all things are possible with God?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Judass
Date: 21 Sep 93 10:00:30
--------
EID:3648 1b355000
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171cf
REPLY: 1:291/16 2c9a7e5d
Quoth Jason Rosendale to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> There is no mention in any Egyptian inscriptions of a global flood
SE> around 2250 BCE. (You think that maybe they just didn't notice it?)
JR> Well, if they believe that Noah 'just knew' when he was
JR> going to die, I don't think it's that great a leap for them
JR> to believe that the Egyptians 'just didn't know' that they
JR> were dead.
Yeah, but what about all the water damage done to the pyramids? All that
seaweed tangled around sarcophagi and little tiny fish skeletons lying all
over the floors of the tombs. Horrible mess.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bible Problems...not!
Date: 21 Sep 93 10:50:08
--------
EID:1ae1 1b355640
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c0
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ce7
Quoth Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins thusly:
SB> He is not saying that the story of Abraham is not true. He
SB> is saying that they can be used as an allegory.
Since you seem to love the original Greek so much... it says 'which things
is being allegorized'. It does not say that they _may_ be or that they _can_
be or that they _might_ be. It says _is_ (are), that is definite, not maybe
or perhaps.
SE> Titus 1:14 refers to 'Jewish fables and commandments of men'. ('Fable
SE> written as mythos in the original Greek.)
SB> This word does not necessarily mean myth the way we know it.
SB> My Greek lexicon says that other possible translations
SB> include a word, speech or a tale.
Very little seems to mean to you what it means to the rest of the planet.
Try this, did Jesus clear the temple of the money-changers at the start
or
the end of his ministry?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Faith
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:01:50
--------
EID:01cd 1b355820
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171d2
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ced
Quoth Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> Christianity is a very real danger to this planet.
SE> It scares me that people that are that ignorant and superstitious can
SE> running the government and the justice system of the most powerful na
SE> the planet. It should scare you too.
SB> You seem to be saying that all Christians are ignorant,
SB> superstitious people who should never be given a position
SB> of responsibility.
I am saying that people with unfounded superstitious beliefs that influence
their actions in such a way as to be a danger to this planet and to humanity
should either not be given positions of such responsibility or they should
be repeatedly taken to task when their statements and management of a
nation's affairs borders on a criminal disregard for humanity or the planet
and provides a possibility of dangerous action being undertaken.
So, if the shoe fits...
SB> Would you have included a person like Martin Luther King?
I don't recall him 'running the country' from a position of importance in
either the government or the judiciary. I concede that there are many good
people who have managed to overcome the limitations that christianity places
upon them and thereby manage to contribute much to the greater good on this
planet. I should include hundreds who have done so over the centuries.
Such exceptions, however, would seem to prove the rule, once again.
SB> Was he a danger to our society also?
I assume that you are merely being sarcastic and will not bother to reply
to
that other than to say that many good things have been done by believers
in
the christian myths in spite of such beliefs, not because of them.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: God Loves Monkeys Too
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:11:04
--------
EID:dec5 1b355960
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c2
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Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> Morality, altruism and love are not the result of a god-thing being
SE> involved, they are based, as is all 'moral' behaviour, on a desire,
SE> that springs from our darkest genetic recesses, to protect our own
SE> species and ensure that our DNA and genetic information continues to
SE> propagate.
JCJ> This, however, seems to me as far-fetched and downright
JCJ> silly as my religious faith seems to you. "Darkest genetic
JCJ> recesses" sounds a little mystic to me
It shouldn't. It is merely an 'admission', if you like, that there is still
more to learn. That some of the details of our genetic past are still
undiscovered. I can assure you that there is no hint of mysticism in any
of
my thought processes. Insinuations that there may be are pointless.
JCJ> -- but the innate
JCJ> desire to "ensure that our DNA and genetic information
JCJ> continues to propagate" sounds like wild speculation.
Might I recommend 'Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors' by Carl Sagan and Ann
Druyan? It provides a very detailed look at the observable inclination of
even the most simple genetic structures to ensure the replication of their
kind.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Biblical Witness
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:21:16
--------
EID:0cd8 1b355aa0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c3
REPLY: 1:135/71 82866dcb
Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> Applying the same techniques to these letters as we do to Paul's or
SE> to the 4 gospels, reveals the same levels of authenticity for most of
SE> them that we can provide for the canon.
JCJ> I don't think so.
Perhaps you should try it. Then you can be more definite in your doubts.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Biblical Witness
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:22:46
--------
EID:0cd8 1b355ac0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c4
REPLY: 1:135/71 82866dcc
Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them know
SE> what Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he
SE> sweated blood?
JCJ> You're obviously correct, Simon. Still, that does not
JCJ> diminish the theory that the disciples memorized certain of
JCJ> Jesus's sayings.
The point is that if _these_ words that Jesus is claimed to have spoken
were
pure invention (since all were asleep at the time) how can you possibly
assume that _any_ of the words that are attributed to Jesus are genuine.
If
the authors of the gospels could invent his words on one occasion, why not
on other occasions? Why not the whole thing? What rational basis do you
have
for trusting these documents? Perhaps your 'faith' in their veracity is
misplaced. Perhaps Jesus never said anything that is attributed to him or
perhaps it was edited and changed to suit the agendas of the redactors.
In Mark 11:36 Jesus attributes Psalm 110 to David. We know that David did
not write Psalm 110, he had been dead for hundreds of years by the time
it
was written. How can you trust the words of a man who is supposed to be
divine that makes such an error?
JCJ> The Lord's prayer is one clear example.
JCJ> The liturgy of the Eucharist is another. But perhaps even
JCJ> the sayings -- as reflected, e.g., in the Sermon on the
JCJ> Mount, in the "Q" Document, or in the Gospel of Thomas --
JCJ> were sayings that Jesus actually taught the disciples.
And, perhaps, as with the 'sweating' of blood, it is a lie, a fabrication.
The mere invention of those with who knows what vested interests. Your faith
may be laudable but if it is based on fiction it is misplaced.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: God Is
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:35:38
--------
EID:5759 1b355c60
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171d3
REPLY: 1:135/71 82866dce
Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
JCJ> Interesting questions, Simon. I'm not sure, but I
JCJ> really do not believe that I "_want_ to believe in a
JCJ> god-thing so badly" or am driven "to _need_ such a belief?"
No one believes _anything_ unless they _want_ to. The need for the belief
arises after the belief has been accepted. You want to believe then, once
you do, you need to continue or admit that you were wrong. When it comes
to
religious belief it has been my experience that for most people this is
difficult to the point of impossibility since it, in some ways, serves to
invalidate the person themselves. No one would choose to voluntarily
invalidate themselves.
JCJ> Indeed, as I recall, I resisted the call, preferring to
JCJ> think that my own mind was more capable of understanding the
JCJ> meaning of life.
That, of course, assumes that there is a 'meaning of life'.
JCJ> A combination of the witness of changed lives -- especially in
JCJ> struggles for peace and justice -- my own extensive readings and
JCJ> studies -- my own individual experiences -- led me slowly to the
JCJ> point of recognizing the still small voice of God. I didn't want
JCJ> it or need it. But there it was.
The fact that you searched at all indicates that you wanted an answer to
some question or other. There was probably a need to find what you wanted
to
find or you would not have been motivated to begin the search.
If you didn't want it, you would not have accepted it. Now that you have
it
you need it. Try to imagine life without it. If you can't, then you are
addicted to it. You need it.
When one searches for meaning one usually finds not what is there but what
one wants to find there.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: God Is
Date: 21 Sep 93 11:56:36
--------
EID:5759 1b355f00
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171d4
REPLY: 1:350/401 85B12D9B
Quoth Jesse C. Jones thusly:
JCJ> The Apostle Paul, who wrestled with the doubting intellectuals at
JCJ> Athens, Acts 17:16-34, understood that faith comes only from
JCJ> spiritual revelation the individual -- it is not a matter to be
JCJ> proven or disproven by human reasoning:
Then why do you, here, attempt to do so? Why quote scripture? If accessible
and articulate reality is not needed to support your belief, if empirical
evidence is unnecessary, why refer to the bible? Is not the very physical
nature of the bible an empirical support mechanism? Quoting the bible is
to
claim empirical support for that which either needs or has none.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Visions
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:08:12
--------
EID:2b1e 1b356100
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c7
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0ce3
Quoth Steve Bedard to Hector Plasmic thusly:
SB>As for automatically believing them, let me tell you that I met a
SB>who became a Christian through visions and dreams
HP>No, you (possibly; you're a typical lying fundy and this is an
HP>unsupported claim) met someone who _claimed_ such. If he'd heard the
HP>same rumors as you, he may have been parroting them just as you have
HP>been, and still are, without evidence. Here you are, Steve, doing the
HP>same old thing yet again, and, stupidly, in plain sight of the echo.
SB> Sorry but the person I met is now a very good friend of
SB> mine. She was not just passing rumours about dreams. It
SB> was a very difficult thing for her to convert to
SB> Christianity from Islam. She would not have done it if she
SB> was not sure that God was telling her to.
She might have done it if she was unsure of what she wanted and wanted to
find out if what she wanted was to be found in what she saw that others
had
found when they wanted to find what they thought that they wanted. As she
continues to decide what it is that she wants she may find that what she
wanted to find was what she found but that it is still wanting, after all.
At this point she becomes a Hare Krishna. Use her conversion while you can
because she will want to move on one day.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Judaism
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:14:48
--------
EID:8cde 1b3561c0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c8
REPLY: 1:247/126 828b0cec
Quoth Steve Bedard to Moshe Shulman thusly:
SB> I've got a question for you. God was actively involved with
SB> the Jews for a long time through prophets and signs and
SB> wonders. Why has He been so silent with the Jews for the
SB> last couple of thousand years?
It's been pretty bloody 'silent with' christians for the last couple
thousand years as well.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Martin Irish
Sub: Jesus
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:17:12
--------
EID:2be8 1b356220
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171c9
REPLY: 1:105/1017 85B3313F
Quoth Martin Irish to Steve Bedard thusly:
MI> There is NO biblical evidence that Jesus was married, and if
MI> He was not married, and had a son out of marriage, that
MI> would make Him a sinner, and we all know (I hope) that Jesus
MI> was without sin of any kind. Otherwise, He could not have
MI> been the Savior.
So there is a limit to what Jesus can do?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Martin Irish
Sub: foul language
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:21:40
--------
EID:637e 1b3562a0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171ca
REPLY: 1:105/1017 85B33140
Quoth Martin Irish to Marilyn Burge thusly:
MI> THIS IS AN OPEN STATEMENT FOR ALL TO READ. PLEASE
MI> REFRAIN FROM THE USE OF OBCENE LANGUAGE IN YOUR MESSAGES..IT
MI> IS OFFENSIVE AND JUVENILE!
Copulate away from here.
MI> 'NUFF SAID!!!
You bet.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Re: Creationism
Date: 21 Sep 93 12:34:56
--------
EID:6b29 1b356440
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f171cb
REPLY: 1:202/102 2c9ac0a4
Quoth Jeff Jones to Simon Ewins & All thusly:
JJ> Apparently, some fundie asshole is afraid of my atheistic
JJ> non-beliefs and posted this little snipet in my name. I
JJ> guess I'll just have to call more frequently in the future
JJ> so I can catch the scoundrel in the act.
In that case, apologies for any venom spat your way .
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Holy Spirit
Date: 20 Sep 93 10:31:50
--------
EID:1fc3 1b3453e0
Quoting: Steve Bedard to Simon Ewins
SE> In fact, in John, Jesus does not pray and no one falls asleep. In Mar
SE> find the same (almost) as in Luke, that is, details about what Jesus
SE> his prayer related by (one of?) those that were sleeping at the time.
SE> Matthew, we have a similar story with detail that no one was awake to
SE> witness.
SB>You are going to hate this answer. The Holy Spirit told them what
SB>happened.
Do I detect a sense of humour here?
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: God Loves Monkeys Too
Date: 20 Sep 93 10:40:03
--------
EID:0e0a 1b345500
Quoting: Jesse C. Jones
JJ>-=> Quoting Simon Ewins to Jesse C. Jones <=-
SE> Morality, altruism and love are not the result of a god-thing being
SE> involved, they are based, as is all 'moral' behaviour, on a desire,
SE> that springs from our darkest genetic recesses, to protect our own
SE> species and ensure that our DNA and genetic information continues to
SE> propagate.
JJ>This, however, seems to me as far-fetched and downright silly as my
JJ>religious faith seems to you. "Darkest genetic recesses" sounds a little
JJ>mystic to me -- but the innate desire to "ensure that our DNA and genetic
JJ>information continues to propagate" sounds like wild speculation.
Actually, dominant (alpha) male chimpanzees and baboons will kill and eat
the
offspring of the previous alpha male. The rationale is that the only way
he
can propagate his own genes is to eliminate a rival's infant so that the
mother will enter estrus again and be available to him for impregnation.
As
long as she has a dependent infant, she will not enter estrus and not be
"available" to him to continue his genes. The point being that it is not
species DNA but individual DNA that matters.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Liz Saunders
Sub: Holy Spirit
Date: 21 Sep 93 19:34:16
--------
EID:2090 1b359c40
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 c9f8f960
Quoth Liz Saunders to Simon Ewins thusly:
SB>You are going to hate this answer. The Holy Spirit told them what
SB>happened.
LS> Do I detect a sense of humour here?
I wish...
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bible Problems...not!
Date: 21 Sep 93 22:26:02
--------
EID:f7df 1b35b340
Quoting: Steve Bedard
SE> Paul calls at least one of the the OT stories an allegory. He als
SE> the Jewish scriptures (and commandments) as fables (mythos in the
SB> Where and what does Paul call an OT story an allegory?
SB> Also, could you give me a verse where Paul calls the
SB> commandments mythos?
SE> Galations 4:24 (referring to a mention of Abraham in v22,23).
SB>He is not saying that the story of Abraham is not true. He is saying
that
SB>they can be used as an allegory. This is shown in the literal translation
SB>where the word translated as allegory really means being allegorized.
Are you actually suggesting that some part of the bible is allegory? Lookout,
you're in trouble now.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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From: Liz Saunders
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Beliefs
Date: 21 Sep 93 22:35:11
--------
EID:2cde 1b35b460
Quoting: Steve Bedard
LS>It's a pity isn't it. Gives Christians like me (although my husband
w
LS>disagree and say I'm not a Christian) who do read and even take course
LS>the
LS>New Testament a bad name. Heck, I even believe in science.
SB>So you are a Christian? Then what problem with my beliefs do you have?
Primarily, I don't think that the bible can be taken as anything more than
a
didactic tool for helping Xian's at any age (the 1st or 20th century) in
trying to understand the teachings of Christ. I think that, in fact, what
Christ was teaching was a very Jewish doctrine (in other words, he was only
trying to reinforce what Judaism was already teaching at the time, but he
was
trying to make it clear that it was important to live the belief, not just
proselytize it). If we had really listened to him, we might all be very
devou
t
Jews, but instead of listening to his teaching, we glorified him.
Therefore, I think that to argue the Bible's divinity or infallibility is
a
mistake, because it is full of mistakes and contradictions, but that's not
the
point. The point is to live as best you can, without doing injury, damage
or
any other harm to another person.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Bible Promise
Date: 21 Sep 93 22:38:02
--------
EID:1a25 1b35b4c0
Quoting: Martin Goldberg
MG>>teaches the kids about the realities of HIV. Of course, the
MG>>fundies call it "Condom lessons" and want it removed. If we
MG>>let them, pretty soon the USA will be just like Iran.
LS> But maybe, at least, it will be fundies, or their children, who
LS> die first.
MG>You laugh, but it's another case of the rich getting richer. As real
info
MG>about HIV becomes available, many people will still continue to blieve
that
MG>it is a gay disases and not their problem...until their kid comes home
from
MG>school with a case of any STD.
I'm just grateful that there is no one telling me that I can't properly
educat
e
my children about how to stay alive and disease free when they get to that
stage, especially a church or state that allegedly "cares" about their welfare
.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Biblical Witness
Date: 22 Sep 93 14:26:34
--------
EID:0cd8 1b367340
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca09c4b0
REPLY: 1:135/71 82866dcb
Quoth Jesse C. Jones to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE> No, I was referring to a copy of a letter from a king to Jesus asking
SE> him to come and heal him. There is a copy of a brief reply from Jesus
SE> to the king declining the offer. I, unfortunately, can't lay my hands
SE> on it at the moment but will post the references later today.
JCJ> I'm not familiar with this. I look forward to reading it. Thanks.
Well, it is not 'today' but it is undeniably 'later'. The earliest reference
to the letters is by Eusebius, Bishop of Syria. For their genuineness he
appeals to the public registers and records of the city of Edessa in
Mesopotamia, where Abgarus reigned. The originals of the letters were found
written in Syriac which Eusebius translated to Greek and published in his
Ecclesiastical History.
Grabe, Archbishop Cave, Dr. Parker and other 'divines' have strongly lobbied
for their admission to the canon of scriptures. The Rev. Jeremiah Jones
has
observed that many homes in England have the following epistle hung up on
the wall in a small frame.
Essentially King Abgarus writes to Jesus asking him to come and cure a
disease that he is afflicted with. Jesus replies as follows...
'Abgarus, you are happy, forasmuch as you have believed on me, whom you
have
not seen. For it is written concerning me, that those who have seen me
should not believe on me, that they who have not seen might believe and
live. As to that part of your letter, which relates to my giving you a
visit, I must inform you, that I must fulfil all the ends of my mission
in
this country, and after that be received up again to him who sent me. But
after my ascension I will send one of my disciples, who will cure your
disease, and give life to you, and all that are with you.'
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: STEVE BEDARD
Sub: Talmud
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:25:00
--------
EID:EBCE F3378320
SB>I was wondering. I Judaism, what do they put more importance on, the
SB>Torah or the Talmud?
The Torah obviously. The Talmud is a collection of explainations of the
laws in the Torah, and how to practically apply them. (In addition to a
record of many oral traditions).
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: PHIL BIRNBAUM
Sub: "G-d"
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:40:00
--------
EID:11EE F3378500
PB>You seem to be well informed on Judaism, so I have a question for you
...
PB>are Orthodox Jews allowed to say the word "God"? As far as I
PB>remember from my teachers at hebrew school, Jews weren't allowed to
PB>use "God"; we had to use "hashem" (informally) or the various Hebrew
PB>names "El", "Shaddai", "Elohim", "Adonai", etc. in prayer.
We avoid saying the name G-d in any language and certainly not any of
the holy names of G-d that are mentioned in the Tenach.
PB>The reason I ask: here in Canada, we have the line "God keep our land/
PB>Glorious and free" in our anthem. I was wondering if that would be
PB>offensive to Orthodox Jews as well as atheists.
I doubt there would be a problem.
PB>P.S. If you don't get a response from me within three or four days,
it's
PB>probably because I didn't get your message ... my sysop here keeps this
PB>area smaller than it needs to be.
No problem, I don't sign in here very often anyway. Especially this time
of year. BTW where in Canada do you live?
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: LONNIE BRANCH
Sub: antichrists
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:41:00
--------
EID:63BB F3378520
LB>The ought to rename this conference, the commie jew echo.
LB>The jew is the antichrist. (1&2 jn)
Actually the Jew is a member of G-d's beloved people, who he has
promised never to forget. If you are not a Jew I would be very worried
after making a statement like that about the 'apple of his eye'.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: ROBERT CURRY
Sub: Jaysus
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:44:00
--------
EID:D07B F3378580
RC>One might keep the better parts of a culture while discarding or
RC>modifying the superstitious shit. Just recycle the waste products
RC>until their toxic properties have been minimized, or better, fully
RC>expunged - leaving one with something far better than the original.
RC>How can these fanatics turn their backs on reason? What schmucks.
Robert, your foul lauguage aside, I think that many of those who follow
the religion are better educated in subjects requiring reason than you
are. I am degreed in Mathematics from UC Berkeley (1977), and I know
many 'fanatics' from other hard acedemic fields. But if it makes you
feel good to think that way, don't let me bother you.
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: ROBERT CURRY
Sub: "True Story" ;-)
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:48:00
--------
EID:A11C F3378600
RC> RC> Area: OPEN_BIBLE
RC> MS> Robert, can you find me ewhere there is a a board that carries
RC> MS> this in New York (city). Thanks. Moshe.
RC>Well, I don't see any messages in open_bible originating from net
RC>278 (where you are posting from).
RC>You could always ask your sysop to areafix that area for you; that
RC>should be the easiest way to get the echo.
I don't know if he can, maybe you can ask someone there if possible. I
know that Harvey Smith would just love the chance to debate with me.
(Maybe you can invite him here with his MJ friends?)
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: STEVE BEDARD
Sub: Many Mansions
Date: 23 Sep 93 16:50:00
--------
EID:D314 F3378640
SB>Do you know what the Talmud says about Jesus?
Yes I do --- NOTHING
* OLX 2.1 TD * Never let the truth interfere with a good story.
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: *.*
Date: 24 Sep 93 15:21:18
--------
EID:b7a4 1b387aa0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2ca3108a
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 33cdb921
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Martin:
In a msg of , Martin Goldberg writes to Tyler
A. Wun
der:
TAW>> I guess you can be the judge.
MG> Just make sure it won't break the scanner. It's not mine.
Well? Did it break?
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Sex problems
Date: 24 Sep 93 15:26:24
--------
EID:5875 1b387b40
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2ca311eb
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Steve:
In a msg of , Steve Quarrella writes to Tyler
A.
Wunder:
SQ> 23 Aug 93, dixit Tyler A. Wunder ad Martin Goldberg:
TA>> I've got just *the* picture to send you. If you could scan it
TA>> into a gif, and send me a copy of said file, I would be
SQ> It's a GREAT picture. Thanks for sending that onto Our Partner In Satan,
SQ> Martin. :)
Thanks. To be honest, I normally don't smile that much -- the grin was
p
rovided courtesy of some illegal fungi I had ingested a little while prior
to
the picture being taken.
SQ> [TYLER.GIF, folks. Any time outside of Zone Mail Hour, v.32bis.]
How do I go about getting a copy of this?
---
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Cult
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:23:08
--------
EID:1508 1b3742e0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195590
REPLY: 1:247/126 838dea2b
Quoth Steve Bedard thusly:
SB> Actually, according to Revelation, we will be spending
SB> eternity on earth in the New Jerusalem,
For _real_ revelation you should quote Timothy Leary.
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Genesis - One Version
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:24:28
--------
EID:76f9 1b374300
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195591
REPLY: 1:247/126 838dea2c
Quoth Steve Bedard to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
sb> Genesis does not give two contradictory accounts of creation.
sb> It gives a description of the same creation from two different
sb> points of view.
FR>See, now I'm very confused. In one version of the mythology humans ar
FR>created before the rest of the animals. In another version of the sam
FR>mythology, humans are created after the rest of the animals. (I don'
FR>actually recall the mythologies as I don't have a copy of them here.)
SB> I have already explained that the second account does not
SB> say when animals were created. It does not need to, the
SB> first account gives the chronology.
You really don't have any idea how pathetic your scrambling is beginning
to
look, do you?
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Dogma
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:25:44
--------
EID:7c1c 1b374320
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195595
REPLY: 1:247/126 838dea2d
Quoth Steve Bedard to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
KB> So you would have us teach the bloody history of torture and murde
KB> name of God that christianity has represented throughout history?
sb> As long as it was also mentioned that these terrible things that p
sb> have done in the name of Christianity go completely against the
sb> teachings of Jesus.
FR>They _are_ the "teachings of Jesus." Pay attention:
FR> Josh 8:1-30
FR>I could go on, of course. Christians who kill are only following the
FR>directives and the examples set forth in the classical Christian mytho
FR>all like to call "the bible."
SB> Give me a quote where Jesus teaches that these things are to
SB> be done.
Why? You will simply either ignore it, distort it, claim that what it says
isn't what it says, shout 'evidence?', shout 'proof?' or quote some
completely irrelevant passage that itself is contradicted elsewhere.
You criticize or ignore creative biblical scholarship that calls for a
change in the way that scripture should be interpreted yet you worship a
man
who did just that (see all of the 'it has been said, but I say' passages
after the Sermon on the Mount). If it wasn't for critical interpretation
of
scriptures and thereby an overturning of the old in favour of the new you
wouldn't have a Jesus to worship. Even the worship of Jesus is strange given
your claim to be monotheistic (but then the ludicrous concept of the trinity
was invented to you help out with that, wasn't it?).
Your current beliefs are not even close to the original christian beliefs.
As 'proof' I offer you the fact that you are not Roman Catholic. The church
out of the first century became (with a boost from Constantine) the Church
of Rome which became the Roman Catholic Church. Along the way Calvinists
and
Protestants sprouted from the main branch and then all hell broke loose
with
a new version of christianity every few years.
Christianity does not preach the gospels to offer man a guide to salvation.
It uses the gospels as a weapon in the ideological conquest of man.
Your belief system is so fractured and tenuous as to be rendered only
slightly less laughable than your pathetic attempts to hold it together
in
the face of screaming inconsistencies and ridiculous assertions.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Son Of God
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:43:30
--------
EID:8603 1b374560
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195596
REPLY: 1:247/126 838dea35
Quoth Steve Bedard to John Burnette thusly:
SB> Sorry, but just because Jesus did not quote the whole psalm,
SB> does not convince me that He was not quoting part of it.
He also quoted Psalm 110 and attributed it to David. David didn't write
it.
It was written either in Babylon, during the exile, or even in the late
Maccabaean period.
How could the 'divine son' of a god-thing get that wrong?
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: I'll be back... soon
Date: 23 Sep 93 08:46:12
--------
EID:2974 1b3745c0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca195597
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2c9bf46c
Quoth Joe Savelli to Don Martin thusly:
JS> You guys must not be able to read. The Story about the man
JS> in florida arrested for praying was well documented in the
JS> 700 club. You can write them if you don't believe me. Else
JS> the subject is put to rest. Simply check it out, unless your
JS> purpose is to harras and learn nothing...
The 700 Club?!?!?!?!? You must be joking. That really is an unbiased source
with no agenda to maintain, isn't it? What in the name of your sweet Jesus
gives you the idea that they would either tell the truth or not distort
it
to suit their purpose?
Bob Jones, the founder of the christian Bob Jones University, besides being
very obviously humble, stated in Christianity Today (x, no.13, 1 April 1966)
that Billy Graham has done more harm to the cause of christianity than any
man alive.
Do you believe that as well? After all, it _is_ Bob Jones... but then again
it _is_ Billy Graham as well. Hmmmm....
... All truths begin as blasphemies. -- George B. Shaw
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Biblical Witness
Date: 22 Sep 93 07:18:41
--------
EID:13ee 1b363a40
Quoting: Jesse C. Jones
JJ>Would it be fair to say, Liz, that early tradition, with varying weight,
JJ>attributed the gospels to the authors whose names they now bear, and
schola
r
JJ>can neither verify nor disprove the tradition?
Yes. All they can do is make educated guesses about the identity of the
redactors based on the style and quality of the greek/aramaic; explanations
give (i.e., Mark explains Jewish custom and the aramaic expressions, Matthew
does not); level of christology (to determine how late it was written);
etc.
JJ>been discounted primarily because of its perceived late date. There
are
JJ>apparently scholars, however, who argue still for authorship by John.
And also that John's Gospel, John 1, 2 and 3 and Revelation were all written
b
y
the same author/group, for which the evidence is very weak.
JJ>BTW, my post was not arguing for the traditional attributions, but was
JJ>only replying to the suggestion that the Gospel of Peter should have
been
JJ>included because of its implied authorship. My reading suggests that
claim
JJ>for authorship is weak.
I have neither read nor studied the Gospel of Peter (that will probably
be
next summer) so you may well be right, I can make no further comment as
I have
no further knowledge.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Michael Gothreau
Sub: Beliefs
Date: 22 Sep 93 07:28:35
--------
EID:0396 1b363b80
Quoting: Michael Gothreau
MG>Perhaps I could obtain some intelligent responses from you. Do you have
MG>a theory as to why Christ's tomb has never been located? I know there
MG>are a few sites that have been claimed to be the tomb of Jesus, but
MG>there is apparantly no evidence to prove it. I wonder, what a Christian
MG>who believes in science might have to say about it :-)
Until yesterday, when I got your post, I had never thought about it. If
Jesus
did everything the bible says he did (ressurrection/ascension) then he would
have no need of a tomb. If, on the other hand, he was just a man who somehow
lived through the experience of crucifixtion and got away, he probably died
in
obscurity in some unknow place and his tomb/grave will never be found, anymore
than any other individual grave from 2,000 years ago will be found. Indeed
if
he did die on the cross, was put in the tomb and his followers stole his
body
and hid it in order to establish the empty tomb myth, then we are hardly
likel
y
to find his body.
In any case, I've survive for 37 years as a Christian
without every worrying about it, so I don't think it's important to my beliefs
.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Fredric Rhyce
Sub: New conversation
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:57:10
--------
EID:d00c 1b37b720
MSGID: 1:250/820 2ca269a3
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet 830eacc3
Sunday September 19 1993, Fredric Rhyce writes to Lonny Bethany:
FR> He blames "corrupt FidoNet officials" for his getting tossed out never
FR
>
FR> giving a care to the fact that there _are_ no "officials."
What else do you call the creap of a RC18 that has blocked so many attempts
to
remove this creature?
C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Liz Saunders
Sub: Beliefs
Date: 23 Sep 93 10:04:28
--------
EID:ae0f 1b375080
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca1adfc3
Quoth Liz Saunders to Michael Gothreau thusly:
LS> individual grave from 2,000 years ago will be found. Indeed
LS> if he did die on the cross, was put in the tomb and his
LS> followers stole his body and hid it in order to establish
LS> the empty tomb myth, then we are hardly likely to find his
LS> body.
Especially if they took his admonition to 'take, eat, this is my body' a
bit
too literally .
After all, they were the fundament of the fundamentalists by definition
.
It is interesting to note, BTW, that the Webster's New World Dictionary
definition of 'fundament' #2 is the buttocks and #3 is the anus. Hmmmm.....
This means that 'up your fundament' is a legitimate English construct. It
would also mean that 'fundamentalism' is a doctrine that is related to the
anus in some way.
Gotta love this language!
Gee, a new tagline.
... Stick it up your fundament.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Faith
Date: 23 Sep 93 21:56:48
--------
EID:01cd 1b37af00
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530e7
REPLY: 1:247/126 8491653a
Quoth Steve Bedard to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
SB> Do you have evidence that the accounts described in the New
SB> Testament did not happen?
The onus of proof rests with the one claiming the existence of the disputed
thing, not vice versa. It is up to you to offer proof that these things
_did_ take place. Do I really have to drag out my contract analogy yet
again? I have a contract here that says that you owe me $10,000. Prove I
don't ... or pay up.
Why does this have to be dealt with over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?
Why can't you and your cronies get this obvious simple fact through to the
nether-reaches of your minds?
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:02:46
--------
EID:1ec6 1b37b040
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530e3
REPLY: 1:247/126 8491653f
Quoth Steve Bedard to Marilyn Burge thusly:
SB> The prophesies in Isaiah include both the first and second
SB> comings of the Messiah.
Theological question... How many times can a Messiah come?
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Will Of God
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:03:46
--------
EID:1122 1b37b060
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530e4
REPLY: 1:247/126 84916540
Quoth Steve Bedard to Jesse C. Jones thusly:
SB> I agree. Another important step is to get back to the
SB> Bible. Most of the crimes that have been done in the name
SB> of Christianity have been completely against the New
SB> Testament teachings. The Bible reveals God's will for us
SB> and we should be following it.
But you can't because it makes no sense and contradicts itself.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Rusty Naylor
Sub: Behold the God that kills
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:10:40
--------
EID:4790 1b37b140
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530e5
REPLY: 1:388/12 523ca5da
Quoth Rusty Naylor to Fredric Rhyce thusly:
RN> BILLY GRAHAM SISTER TEHERSA MARTIN KING JAMES DOBSON J
RN> VERNON MCGEE BILLY SUNDAY and a million other people you
RN> have never heard of..
RN> GOOD CHRISTIANS ALLL.. And your quotes only prove the
RN> truth of the prophecy AND ON THAT DAY THEY WILL SAY TO MEE
RN> LORD LORD WE PROPHISIED AND HEALD IN YOUR NAME aND Jesus
RN> will say depart from me for I never knew you...
That would be nice. Unfortunately this jesus-thing just won't go away, no
matter how much it is reviled and ridiculed.
Bob Jones, the founder of the christian Bob Jones University, besides being
very obviously humble, stated in Christianity Today (x, no.13, 1 April 1966)
that Billy Graham has done more harm to the cause of christianity than any
man alive.
Is that the BILLY GRAHAM that you are shouting about above?
BTW, you will gain a lot of credibility if you stop shouting (lighten up
of
the CAPS) and learn to spell.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Dogma
Date: 23 Sep 93 22:17:50
--------
EID:9c00 1b37b220
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2530ec
REPLY: 1:291/16 2c9e4fac
Quoth Steve Bedard thusly:
SB> As for the Bible being changed for two thousand years, that is
SB> sort of hard since we still have ancient copies of the Bible with
SB> which to compare.
Okay, enough is enough. Follow this exercise very carefully....
1) Get a King James Version of the Bible
2) Read Matthew 19:16ff
3) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
4) Read Mark 10:17f
5) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
6) Read Luke 18:18ff
7) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
8) Compare the three and you will note that they are essentially the same.
9) Now get an NRSV and repeat steps 2 to 7.
10) Compare these three and note that Matthew differs from Mark and Luke.
11) Now get an interlinear Greek/English New Testament.
12) Repeat steps 2 to 7.
13) Note that Matthew differs from Mark and Luke.
The KJV version of Matthew has been unabashedly changed (surely
intentionally) to conform to what Mark and Luke said that Jesus said. Which
'bible' is correct? Which do you trust and believe? Why? If the creators
of
the KJV blatantly lied about what Jesus said how can you trust them to be
accurate in other areas? How do you know what Jesus said? How do you know
that he said anything at all?
This is not some unimportant part of the bible this is in the area of
relating what your son of a god-thing said. Are not his words important
enough to have been written down accurately? Matthew is missing the phrase
'that is God'. This is a key element of the theological idea being
presented, yet it is not included in Matthew. Matthew was written after
(and
probably in great part copied from) Mark. So, since theological development
would be assumed to be more advanced as time progresses (as it is with
Paul's theology in Romans as compared with Galatians), do we assume that
God
is not as important to christianity at the time that Matthew was written?
Since Mark was the basis for Matthew it must have been left out
intentionally by the author of Matthew (unless you claim that the words
of
Jesus could be left out by an oversight). If they were left out by oversight
then they cannot be that important. If the words of Jesus are not important
then where doth christianity rest? More importantly, since the KJV _does_
have the missing words inserted, how can you trust a book that flat out
lied by including in its translation what was not originally there? How
many
other parts of the bible my be thusly contrived?
The bible has changed more times and in more ways than you will ever be
able
to grasp.
You replied once that the Holy Ghost told the disciples what Jesus said.
This is evidence? This is a dream, this is wishful thinking and nothing
more. The bible is not evidence of anything except that some guys knew how
to write 1,900 to 2,500 years ago. What they wrote about was limited by
their understanding and influenced by what they believed was true given
the
lack of any reason to think otherwise. You have more options now, should
you
have the guts to exercise them.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A : 416-422-5723 : Toronto, Canada (eh) : (1:250/664)
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Beliefs
Date: 22 Sep 93 08:14:47
--------
EID:a0fe 1b3641c0
Quoting: Simon Ewins
SE>Quoth Liz Saunders to Michael Gothreau thusly:
LS> individual grave from 2,000 years ago will be found. Indeed
LS> if he did die on the cross, was put in the tomb and his
LS> followers stole his body and hid it in order to establish
LS> the empty tomb myth, then we are hardly likely to find his
LS> body.
SE>Especially if they took his admonition to 'take, eat, this is my body'
a bi
t
SE>too literally .
Don't give the fundies any ideas. They have enough strange ones all on
their
own.
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Dogma
Date: 22 Sep 93 08:18:44
--------
EID:cbeb 1b364240
Quoting: Simon Ewins
SE>... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
SE>morons to believe it.
Seems to me you said you were raised Baptist - does your mother know where
you
are?
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Liz Saunders
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 22 Sep 93 08:23:05
--------
EID:565b 1b3642e0
Quoting: Simon Ewins
SE>
SE>Quoth Steve Bedard to Marilyn Burge thusly:
SE>
SE>SB> The prophesies in Isaiah include both the first and second
SE>SB> comings of the Messiah.
SE>
SE>Theological question... How many times can a Messiah come?
I thought "heavy breathing" was the limit of what was allowable for a messiah
--- cPoint v1.04/00002
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Russ Lopez
Sub: Cow pies
Date: 24 Sep 93 09:12:50
--------
EID:c38e 1b384980
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2f3b23
REPLY: 1:226/120 8489e64a
Quoth Russ Lopez to Dan Ceppa thusly:
RL> Help me out.
Which way did you come in?
RL> Where did the first DNA come from?
Atomic attractions and bonding -> molecules -> nucleic acids -> DNA.
Read some books and stop asking stupid questions. The information is
available if you have the desire (and the guts?) to search for it.
... Get your head out of your fundament.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Liz Saunders
Sub: Dogma
Date: 24 Sep 93 09:27:48
--------
EID:dd57 1b384b60
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca2f3b22
Quoth Liz Saunders to Simon Ewins thusly:
SE>... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
SE> morons to believe it.
LS> Seems to me you said you were raised Baptist - does your
LS> mother know where you are?
She probably would have some suggestions as to where I am going.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Oooops!
Date: 24 Sep 93 17:50:22
--------
EID:26fb 1b388e40
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca36b513
REPLY: 1:226/120 8489e647
Jason, my mailer went maniacal on me today for some reason and a message
intended for Steve Bedard went out addressed to you in error. This happened
to a number of messages in a number of areas here from a variety of my
system's users.
Apologies.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Biblical Accuracy
Date: 24 Sep 93 17:54:18
--------
EID:baf5 1b388ec0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca36b514
Quoth Steve Bedard thusly:
SB> As for the Bible being changed for two thousand years, that is
SB> sort of hard since we still have ancient copies of the Bible with
SB> which to compare.
Okay, enough is enough. Follow this exercise very carefully....
1) Get a King James Version of the Bible
2) Read Matthew 19:16ff
3) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
4) Read Mark 10:17f
5) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
6) Read Luke 18:18ff
7) Note what Jesus says (write it down)
8) Compare the three and you will note that they are essentially the same.
9) Now get an NRSV and repeat steps 2 to 7.
10) Compare these three and note that Matthew differs from Mark and Luke.
11) Now get an interlinear Greek/English New Testament.
12) Repeat steps 2 to 7.
13) Note that Matthew differs from Mark and Luke.
The KJV version of Matthew has been unabashedly changed (surely
intentionally) to conform to what Mark and Luke said that Jesus said. Which
'bible' is correct? Which do you trust and believe? Why? If the creators
of
the KJV blatantly lied about what Jesus said how can you trust them to be
accurate in other areas? How do you know what Jesus said? How do you know
that he said anything at all?
This is not some unimportant part of the bible this is in the area of
relating what your son of a god-thing said. Are not his words important
enough to have been written down accurately? Matthew is missing the phrase
'that is God'. This is a key element of the theological idea being
presented, yet it is not included in Matthew. Matthew was written after
(and
probably in great part copied from) Mark. So, since theological development
would be assumed to be more advanced as time progresses (as it is with
Paul's theology in Romans as compared with Galatians), do we assume that
God
is not as important to christianity at the time that Matthew was written?
Since Mark was the basis for Matthew it must have been left out
intentionally by the author of Matthew (unless you claim that the words
of
Jesus could be left out by an oversight). If they were left out by oversight
then they cannot be that important. If the words of Jesus are not important
then where doth christianity rest? More importantly, since the KJV _does_
have the missing words inserted, how can you trust a book that flat out
lied by including in its translation what was not originally there? How
many
other parts of the bible may be thusly contrived?
The bible has changed more times and in more ways than you will ever be
able
to grasp.
You replied once that the Holy Ghost told the disciples what Jesus said.
This is evidence? This is a dream, this is wishful thinking and nothing
more. The bible is not evidence of anything except that some guys knew how
to write 1,900 to 2,500 years ago. What they wrote about was limited by
their understanding and influenced by what they believed was true given
the
lack of any reason to think otherwise. You have more options now, should
you
have the guts to exercise them.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A : 416-422-5723 : Toronto, Canada (eh) : (1:250/664)
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: All
Sub: Oooops!
Date: 24 Sep 93 17:56:28
--------
EID:ebf0 1b388f00
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca36b516
I haven't yet figured out why but my mailer decided to send copies of
messages I entered this morning to both parties named in the original
message. I have managed to catch and prevent all but a couple from leaving
my system but some may have slipped through. If you have duplicates from
me
to two individuals... mea culpa.
Apologies to all for wasting disk space.
--- timEd/B8
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--------
From: Simon Ewins
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Re: Listing Ron Stringfellow's faults
Date: 24 Sep 93 18:03:18
--------
EID:2cdc 1b389060
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 ca36b517
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 9e523400
Quoth Hector Plasmic to Marilyn Burge thusly:
MB> I'm having a bit of a "discussion" with a literalist at work.
MB> He's an ex-supervisor of mine -- Jehovah's Witness. His claim is that
MB> Methusalah DID live to be 936 years old.
Actually the biblical claim is for 969 years so he would appear to have
even
gotten that wrong. (Ref. Genesis 5:27)
You might want to suggest that if he intends to believe the damn book he
should first read it.
... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and a few
morons to believe it.
--- timEd/B8
* Origin: A_X_A_X_A : 416-422-5723 : Toronto, Canada (eh) : (1:250/664)
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--------
From: Matt Robins
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 09 Dec 93 08:04:00
--------
EID:ad33 1b894080
MSGID: 1:102/943.0 2d074c70
==> Steve Bedard continued his crusade on 12-3-93 with HP <==
SB>HP> SB>Matthew 16:26 "What good... yet forfeits his soul?"
SB>HP>See? Got any evidence for this "soul" thing? Any at all?
SB>It is all based on faith. I am not required to provide evidence for
any
SB>of this. Believe or don't believe. It's up to you.
Steve,
You cannot say that. It *isn't* as arbitrary as you indicate.
You are not totally free to believe or not believe anything;
that would be irrational, superstitious, or plain dumb.
You cannot _just_ believe in things that do not exist, thus
forcing them into existence with no further evidence required.
That's insanity.
You cannot believe that you are Napoleon. You cannot believe
that if "the voices" are telling you to do something wrong, then
it's required of you to do it. You cannot believe that the
earth is flat, the sun rises in the West, or that 1+2=5.
It is *not* "all based on faith." That's NewAge garbage!
Your loose thinking shows itself repeatedly: a lot of the
things you say (AIDS prevention was the subject of this thread)
may be right, but for the wrong reasons. The only way to
correct this is for you to exercise some discipline over your
thinking.
Matt
___
X OLX 2.1 TD X Yeah, riiight! God created OLD fossils, did He??
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Heathen inability to make moral judgments
Date: 08 Dec 93 14:32:31
--------
EID:8744 1b887400
JCJ> I guess you missed it, Stephen. A loud chorus of evangelical
JCJ> heathens here, including the Rice Brothers, Sean McWhatever, and
JCJ> several others, labeled the idea that the former Soviet Union was
JCJ> "evil" as an invention of US Religious leaders, and proclaimed that
the
JCJ> USA is every bit as evil as the USSR was.
It is. Or do you think slavery was righteous? How about how we treated
the Amerinds? The Soviets had Afghanistan, we had Korea and Vietnam.
Please prove to me that we ARE any different, righteousness wise.
... Is it live or is it Holodeck?
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: did you hear the latest?
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:40:43
--------
EID:6dab 1b889500
AA> Go to a born-again bookstore and look up the ravings of an idiot
AA> called Phil Phillips...he's got a great book or two on the same
AA> subject. Makes me wanna watch "He-Man" till I can't see straight.
AA> (yuk yuk) And DON'T get me started on my copy of A CHRISTIAN RESPONSE
AA> TO DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS...
NF> The anti-rpg
ML> "Anti-rpg"? Anti-Rocket Propelled Grenade?
ML> Great. Next thing you know, they'll make us wait 5 days
ML> before we can purchase a gun.
Don't get me started... 8-}
Role playing games...
... I spell knife with an "n". - Picard
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Neal Feldman
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: did you hear the latest?
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:41:44
--------
EID:65e8 1b889520
AA> Go to a born-again bookstore and look up the ravings of an idiot
AA> called Phil Phillips...he's got a great book or two on the same
AA> subject. Makes me wanna watch "He-Man" till I can't see straight.
AA> (yuk yuk) And DON'T get me started on my copy of A CHRISTIAN RESPONSE
AA> TO DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS...
AA>
NF> The anti-rpg idiocy is ludicrous in the extreme... I will look for
NF> that book... should be good for many a good laugh.
AA> The Phillips book is published by Oliver-Nelson. Phil Baby also has
a
AA> newsletter, which can be obtained by writing to Child Affects, P.O.
AA> Box 68, Rockwall, TX 75087.
Thanks. Info saved.
... It's the blue parrot Cafe, and you're buying. - Picard
--- FMail 0.94
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:46:07
--------
EID:4409 1b889dc0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d4
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> I believe that totally . And I can prove it too .
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Hehehe... ;)
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> Uh huh... I hate fundies of all stripes, to be honest. Especially ones
> that claim they're not ;)
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Same here... People just have to open their minds a little... :)
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> You got it. I figure why should I bother trying to prove something to
> someone who wouldn't believe it if he held it in his hand? Fundies
> don't believe the
> truth, even if it's solid and they're standing in it .
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
A waste of time... :)
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I defend my (and your) right to believe as
> you will, so long as you're not murdering anyone or something .
> I think that children under the age of majority should be disallowed
> from religious congregations, though... Let them read about it if they
> will, but make it illegal to teach them in school or at home, until
> they're old enough to make up their own minds.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I disagree there... I mean, if anyone is going to change their beliefs,
they'
ll change their beliefs. I was raised as fundy Christian (Methodist, to
be ex
act), but I'm certainly not that anymore... :)
-dan-
(It's too bad Theseus left you on that island...)
(Sorry, I had to say it...mythology class. )
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:48:08
--------
EID:4409 1b889e00
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d5
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Ariadne Said: ]-----
> Dan, it's okay... he's a fundie and an athiest. We have to make
> allowances for them, you know ...
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Hehehhe... Maybe we should make some "special" schools for them...
Next thing we know, they'll be demanding equal (read: special) rights, their
o
wn interest groups, seats in Congress and high-level company positions...
Blegh.
-dan-
Fight the War
Fuck the Norm
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:51:09
--------
EID:6809 1b889e60
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d6
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> DS>1. Outrageous is a matter of opinion.
>
> Ariadne said:
>
> A>I've had some pretty interesting experiences with Goddess...
> A>physical manifestations and stuff like that .
>
> Physical manifestations of godlets is outrageous. Doubt it? Provide
> the evidence.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Outrageous means unbelievable. She believes it, so it's obviously believable.
-----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
> DS>2. Requests for evidence? Yes. Attacks on one's credibility? No.
>
> Hector said:
>
> HP>Evidence, please, or stop flinging the bullshit as fact rather than
> HP>opinion. Thanks.
>
> Want to rephrase now, Dan?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No. Bullshit: ie., a total farce. In stating that her statements were
'bulls
hit', you were saying that she was lying, and therefore, that she was a
liar a
nd a fake.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Erin Corliss
Sub: .
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:54:10
--------
EID:6c4e 1b889ec0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d7
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Erin Corliss Said: ]-----
> But anyway, to my point. I've seen statistics that say more than 80%
> of
> people who claim to be Christian don't go to church. There isn't a
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Church is an optional practice....
-----[ First Erin Corliss Said: ]-----
> of churches, is there? No. And which is a better indicator of belief,
> what people do or what people say? If there was a car thief out there
> who
> swore that he believed car thieving was the ultimate sin, but he stole
> a
> car every day, I think your average bible banger would agree he was
> either insane or he didn't really believe in what he was saying. If we
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
They aren't going out and killing or performing polygamy or anything every
day
...at least not -most- of them.
-----[ First Erin Corliss Said: ]-----
> apply this logic to the question of how many people really believe in
> God, it becomes pretty goddamned clear that most "Christians" are
> >>ATHEISTS<< inside, doesn't it?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, it just shows they aren't dedicated to their "religion", and really
haven'
t soul-searched. At least that's my experience. If they would search themsel
ves, they would probably join more "logical" religions, such as atheism,
agnos
ticism, buddhism, wicca, or other "nature" oriented religions.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:57:11
--------
EID:bdfe 1b889f20
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d8
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Styx Allum Said: ]-----
> 1.) This is an international Fido echo.
> As such, there are no "private" messages.
> When you post here, it is open to anyone.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
As I've said a MILLION times... ... I understand that. But he had
not
listened to other points she had made. He reminded me of a debator who
only r
eplied to a portion of their opponet's statement, rather than the basis
of the
belief.
-----[ First Styx Allum Said: ]-----
> 2.) Hector's request for evidence is not out of order here,
> as HolySmoke is a religion debunking echo.
> All dogmatic claims made here are open to scrutiny,
> as are claims of anti-dogma.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
I tend to classify a request as:
"Can you please give some proof, rather than making broad-based, individualist
ic comments."
rather than:
"Stop flinging the bullshit blah blah blah..."
I understand that this is holy-SMOKE-, but still, he should at least have
the
decency to ask rather than demand, by attacking her credibility.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Dan Sereduick
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:00:12
--------
EID:43c2 1b88a000
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029d9
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> There may be an infinite regression of questions, but there is also an
> infinite regression of answers...one for every question. We may not
> know the answers, but they must exist otherwise the question would be
> invalid. For example, why does X do Y? If no answer exists then X
> does not do Y. We may not know the answers for every valid question,
> but they must necessarily exist. It is up to us to become curious for
> the answers.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Exactly. There are answers, it's just that we probably won't sit down for
a f
ew years to figure it out...
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> Only within current human limitations.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Exactly.
Later!
-----[ First Derek Clayton Said: ]-----
> * Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Cool ass song... Saw them live a week ago... Wild concert... :)
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Matt Coleman
Sub: kill niggers now
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:02:13
--------
EID:7c61 1b88a040
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029da
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Matt Coleman Said: ]-----
> I hate niggers. Kill em all now!
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No.
I have better things to do than ruin my life with a murder charge.
Get a grip. Deal with it.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Robert Curry
Sub: EVERYONE SHUT UP!
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:04:14
--------
EID:5e70 1b88a080
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029db
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> DS> Yes, they should, until they infringe on others' rights.
>
> So go hide in your little dream world where no one ever speaks up
> for fear of possibly offending someone who can't stand questions.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Questions are fine. Vicious attacks and insults prove (and disprove) nothing.
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> I respect their right to have them _and_ I challenge them.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
As long as you don't openly state that their beliefs are "bullshit" (ahem,
Hec
tor), then there's nothing wrong with questioning their beliefs. As long
as y
ou do it objectively.
-dan-
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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From: Dan Sereduick
To: Robert Curry
Sub: You laughed... {sob!}
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:07:15
--------
EID:d4f3 1b88a0e0
MSGID: 1:2617/117 ac0029dc
PID: T.A.G. 2.6f1
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> And laughing some more. Is it his fault that she's a fuckin' hoot?
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
No, it's his fault that he's completely intolerant of anyone who believes
diff
erently.
(by the way, I think it's a "fuckin' hoot" that you are so stuck on your
own b
eliefs that everything else is wrong... Sounds like someone isn't searching
f
or truth, just something to base an attack on.)
-----[ First Robert Curry Said: ]-----
> Separates it from your never-never land of bunnies and light, perhaps.
-----[ My Reply: ]-----
Someone's eating mushrooms here. Stop making up bullshit and DEAL WITH
IT.
-dan-
Attacks are nothing but a way of coping with INSECURITIES.
Someone's just afraid of being wrong.
--- GEcho/386 1.01+
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--------
From: Greg Gentry
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Demon Barney
Date: 08 Dec 93 00:58:07
--------
EID:6615 1b880740
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d05b33e
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting David Rice to Steve Quarrella <=-
>SQ>DB> From the November 26 Chicago Tribune:
>SQ>DB>
>SQ>DB> Barney a demon?
>SQ>DB>
>SQ>DB> [cuts] Rev. Joseph Chambers says ... "Barney is teaching kids
>SQ>DB> that we must accept everyone as they are--- whether they're
>SQ>DB> homosexuals or lesbians."
DR>
DR> Homosexuals -OR- lesbians?!
Gotta love them fundies. We have a preacher here in Kansas named Fred
Phelps, which 20/20 (or one of those evening news magazines) called one
of the scariest men they had ever met, he often has supporters who carry
signs that decry "bull dikes". I guess they have something against levies
for cattle.
... WARNING! Removal of this tagline prohibited by law!
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Greg Gentry
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 08 Dec 93 00:58:08
--------
EID:688f 1b880740
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d05b33f
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting David Rice to Steve Bedard <=-
DR> with: Fredric Rice
FR>FR>> Scientific method has killed your deities.
FR>FR> God is dead, Steve. Science has killed it.
SB> Thanks for reposting. The above comments strongly suggest
SB> that you are saying science disproves the existence of God[sic].
SB> Earlier, people demanded that I give an example of someone
SB> saying that science has disproved the existence of God[sic].
SB> Thanks for doing the work for me.
DR>
DR> And I hereby apologize to you, Steve, for saying you were lying.
DR> I missed the above messages from Fredric that implies that science
DR> has "disproven" god. [Though he said "killed it," not disproven.]
DR> Science cannot prove gods do not exist--- maybe Fredric meant that
DR> science has demonstrated that there is no need to invoke gods as
DR> explanations for the observable: that's death to any idea. Instead
DR> of me second-guessing what he ment, I suppose I could ask him. :-)
Nietzesche, #125, from _The Gay Science_
"The Madman" Have you heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright
morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly, "I seek God!
I seek God!" As many of those who do not believe in God were standing around
just then, he provoked much laughter. Why, did he get lost? said one.
Did
he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid
of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they yelled and laughed.
The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his glances.
"Whither is God" he cried. "I shall tell you. WE HAVE KILLED HIM--you
and
I. All of us are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we
able
to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon?
What did we do when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it
movin
g
now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging
continually? Backward, sideward, foreward, in all directions? Is there
any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing?
Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is
not
night and more night coming on all the while? Must not lanterns be lit
in
the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers
who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition?
Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed
him.
How shall we, the murderers of all murderers, comfort ourselves? What was
holiest and most powerful of all that the world has yet owned has bled to
deat
h
under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there
for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games
shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for
us? Must not we ourselves become gods simply to seem worthy of it? There
has never been a greater deed; and whoever will be born after us--for the
sake
of this deed he will be part of a higher history than all history hitherto."
Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they
too were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his
lantern on the ground, and it broke and went out. "I come too early,"
he said then; "my time has not come yet. This tremendous even is still
on
its way, still wandering--it has not yet reached the ears of man. Lightning
and thunder require time, the light of the stars requires time, deeds require
time even after they are done, before they can be seen and heard. This
deed
is still more distant from them the most distant stars--AND YET THEY HAVE
DONE IT THEMSELVES."
It has been related further that on that same day they madman entered divers
church and there sang his _requiem aeternam deo_. Led out and called to
account, he is said to have replied each time, "What are these churches
now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"
... "I wasn't privy to the exact moment of coupling. . . ." - Data
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 08 Dec 93 11:52:02
--------
EID:10ce aa0ad8c2
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ab0b1a6d
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet aa8d260e
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> dr> I think that World War Two was the only war that
> dr> America was justified in fighting.
> ab> And we wouldn't have had to fight that one, were it not for our
> ab> unjustified involvement in the first world war.
> Just curious: How so?
It ought to be clear that had Germany not been virtually crushed by WWI,
the G
erman people would have had no inclination to follow Hitler; his party appeale
d to the German peoples' desperation. To that extent it is obvious that
we br
ought about WWII. However, it might be argued that we had to get involved
in
WWI, so we can be absolved on that score. In a sense, that's true. We
lent a
n awful lot of money, and sold an awful lot of military goods on credit,
to th
e British and the French. Had Germany won, we'd have had to kiss all that
cas
h goodbye.
As a moral issue, however, there was nothing in particular to recommend
either
side over the other. Considering how badly things were going for all of
the
warring parties by the later stages of the war, it is quite possible that
they
would have arranged some sort of truce without U.S. intervention. Any such
tr
uce would have been far more favorable to Germany, of course, but given
the Ge
rman government at that time, there was no reason to fear such a result,
and a
gain it would have prevented the rise of the Nazis.
Alternatively, had Germany actually defeated the French, annexation had
not be
en a tradition in European warfare prior to that point, and I know of no
evide
nce that that is what the Germans were seeking (note that France declared
war
on Germany, not the other way around). Most likely, Germany would have
treate
d the French like the allied powers treated Germany; it would have taken
some
land, disarmed the French military, and otherwise allowed France to continue
t
o govern itself. Had France fallen, the British and Italians would surely
hav
e given up the war.
No matter how you slice it, without U.S. intervention you don't get much
notic
able harm to Europe, and you don't get the rise of Hitler. Further, had
the G
ermans retained the land they took from Russia when Lenin basically surrendere
d, Stalin would have had a considerably less powerful nation under his control
.
Indeed, if one wished to speculate wildly, it might have been possible after
s
uch a war to persuade the Germans to support the whites in Russia, as the
Amer
icans did in actual history. Had the whites defeated the reds, instead
of the
other way around, we wouldn't have had Stalin's purges.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: David Rice
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 08 Dec 93 12:02:03
--------
EID:10ce aa0ad8c3
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ab0b1a6e
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d0511ec
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> It's true that America was strangling Japan
> economically and
> militarily (dictating the allowable size of Japan's
> military, if I
> recall my high-school history class correctly). I
> really hate to
> admit it, but I think that America's involvement in
> WWII was the
> only way to prevent even greater death and destruction
> later on,
> with North America hosting the war, and not Europe. In
> other words,
> a little preventative butchery and genocide.
More importantly, the U.S. was about to cut off exports of steel to Japan
when
WWII started. Japan had no other source of steel. Other historical elements
can be used to explain, though less clearly justify, Japan's behavior.
Remem
ber the Russo-Japanese war. The Russians attacked Japan without provocation.
The Japanese whipped their asses. A consortium of America and assorted
Europ
ean powers then stepped in and forced Japan to give back anything they had
tak
en from Russia, and accept a peace that was basically the former status
quo. E
uropean powers never treated their own enemies like that; look at what they
di
d to Germany after WWI. If Japan treated America and Europe with distrust,
ev
en hatred, it had some reason.
Still, the war against Japan can perhaps be seen as not America's fault.
It's
the war against Germany that I was more concerned with. Certainly Hitler
had
to be stopped, but he ought never to have started, and were it not for Americ
a's unjustified intervention in WWI, he would never have started.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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--------
From: Greg Gentry
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 08 Dec 93 13:15:51
--------
EID:97b9 1b8869e0
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d066026
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting David Rice to Keith Rockhold <=-
KR> Total war means that you do every thing you can in order to win
KR> that war including the killing of civilians.
DR>
DR> Conventional bombs could have destroyed the target (ball-bearing
DR> factories). No need to take tens of thousands of people out with it.
DR> The intent was to demoralize the fighters by destroying their
DR> families at home (same as America does today).
KR> In total war there are no civilians and most assuredly in 1945
KR> Japan there WERE NO CIVILIANS.
DR>
DR> So a two-year-old child is a combatent?
I apologize, I missed the original post, but want to respond to what Keith
Rockhold said. He is wrong when he says that in war everyone is a combatant.
International law has grown _Jus in bello_ laws that include the principles
of discrimination or noncombatant immunity that restrict military targets
and supplies in an effort to portect innocent civilians. The international
laws are listed in an incomplete form here:
1. No attacking of unarmed enemies.
2. No use of forbidden arms or munitions
3. No firing on undefended localities without military significance
4. No improper use or destruction of privileged (exempt, immune) buildings
for military purposes. [this means no bombing of embassies]
5. No poisoning streams or wells
6. No pillaging
7. No killing or wounding military personnel who have surrendered or are
disabled by wounds or sickness
8. No ill-treating prisoners of war
9. No assassinating or hiring of assassins
10. No compelling the inhabitants of occupied enemy territory to furnish
information about the armed forces of the enemy or his means of defense.
11. No bombarding from the air to terrorize or attack civilian populations
[!]
12. No attacking enemy vessels that have indicated their surrender by
lowering their flag
13. No destroying civilian cultural objects and places of worship
We obviously were thinking about some of these rules when we decided on
Nagasaki and Hiroshima, particularly number 13, so one has to wonder why
we ignored number 1 and 11?
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Greg Gentry
To: David Strickland
Sub: Re: PILTDOWN MAN
Date: 08 Dec 93 13:15:52
--------
EID:37d4 1b8869e0
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d066027
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting David Strickland to Fredric Rice <=-
DS> Straightened out my brother about the Noahs Ark hoax, and he for one
DS> didn't violently deny that the "flood" was really a large Local flood,
DS> and after further discussion agreed that Noah's Ark and the whole flood
DS> story was mostly a folk tale passed down generations (and having been
DS> done was changed) of that one specific flood. Mom, Dad, and Sister
DS> still believe that the flood really happened (Dad even believes the
DS> Vapor Canopy shit).
My favorite Ark myth is the one that says they found the high water mark
on Mount Ararat. Obviously forgetting that the flood "covered all the land"
and there wouldn't be a "high water mark". Sometimes you have to wonder
what these people think about when they come up with this junk.
... All I need is a Wave and a board to surf it on.
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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--------
From: Joseph Britt
To: Brian Shreve
Sub: THE BIBLE IS THE WORD
Date: 07 Dec 93 15:04:00
--------
EID:b639 1b877880
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 2d06f492
Posted by: One Who is Saved, Sure, Secure, and Serving. (2Tim. 4:2)
Originally From: Brian Shreve, Originally To: Joseph Britt
BS>I have to admit the scriptures clearly say that homosexuality
| is: [an abomination] [a sin] [and homosexuals will "surely" be
| put to death] I think that is pure bias and lack of knowledge.
=================================================================
Who's lack of knowledge?
Don't you believe that this is the Word of God?
Have you fallen for that idea that the bible was written by
men and out of their own feeble minds?
BS>for our sins. Unfortunatly, Jesus did kill himself, which we
| (DELETED FOR BREVITY)
| mental health facility. So... if there is one provable flaw in
| the scriptures, this is clearly it.
=================================================================
Men give up their lives willingly for several reasons....
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man
lay down his life for his friends.
BS>I do think that the scriptures were inspired by God, but
| tainted by man. I don't know THE true answer, if I went with my
| doubts, I'd not be saved, but since I go by faith and most of
| all, hope, I am saved.
=================================================================
What?.....God was unable to keep man from spoiling His Word?
Must not be a very powerful God.
Must not be a very loving God.
He must do this as a sideline....?
Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and
praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as]
silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them
from this generation for ever.
A god like the one you describe must not care very much for
me to let his reference book get all smelly like that....
In Hope,
Joe (Jn.6:29)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Brian Shreve
To: Joseph Britt
Sub: THE BIBLE IS THE WORD
Date: 09 Dec 93 04:12:18
--------
EID:5b0f 1b892180
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 2d06fa02
JB> Posted by: One Who is Saved, Sure, Secure, and Serving.
Ok, if you say so.
JB> Originally From: Brian Shreve,
Love it, you grandiose yourself and leave me as little ol Brian Shreve.
Well, guess I should be fortunate you didn't say some rotten sinner
or something similar. (ha!)
BS> I think that is pure bias and lack of knowledge.
JB> Who's lack of knowledge?
Christians. (or, perhaps, fundies)
JB> Don't you believe that this is the Word of God?
^^^^^^^^^
Whats "this"? If you mean the bible, yes, but as I stated before,
it's been tainted by mankind thru the years.
JB> Have you fallen for that idea that the bible was written by
JB> men and out of their own feeble minds?
It's possible. I don't rightly know. Nor, do you. (I know, I know,
The bible tells YOU its all true)
BS> for our sins. Unfortunatly, Jesus did kill himself, which we
JB> Men give up their lives willingly for several reasons....
JB> John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man
JB> lay down his life for his friends.
Suicide is suicide, no matter the rational of doing it. I hardly think
a god would send his only son to die such a horrid death when peaceful
and kind and loving ways would of been more than adequate. I sure don't
want to be subserviant to one that tells people to drink his blood and
eat of his body, or who sends little old ladys who have led a life of
giving and self sacrifice and goodness, but just happens to be an
atheist, to an eternal fire and damnation. And I sure don't understand
those who wish to follow such a god.
JB> What?.....God was unable to keep man from spoiling His Word?
God gave man free choice. He also allowed Satan to run around.
JB> Must not be a very powerful God.
Yeah, so powerful that he ain't stopping all of these wars and little
children from being sexually abused and viciously killed. So powerful
that he couldn't clean up heaven without coming up with the idea of
having his only son humiliated and suffering a horrid death. So powerful
and angry that he has to devise a pit of eternal torment because some
people don't believe in him. He's so powerful!
Yeah...I know, you'll surely use my argument that he gave us free
choice! ha!
JB> Must not be a very loving God.
hahahahha, you got that right! Your god is mean and vicious and
angry. Reminds me of sperm meeting the egg, only the strongest will
survive.
JB> He must do this as a sideline....?
Your sarcasm is duly noted. Most typical of a fundie.
JB> Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and
JB> praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:
JB> for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Yawn.
See ya
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Joseph Britt
To: Brian Shreve
Sub: RIGHTEOUS ANGER.... 1/2
Date: 07 Dec 93 14:31:00
--------
EID:baa8 1b8773e0
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 2d0701e4
Posted by: One Who is Saved, Secure, Sure, and Serving. (2Tim. 4:2)
====================================================================
Brian Shreve's message to Joseph Britt said:
BS> JB> of a person who has indeed read at least part of the
| bible, but as if every other line was blocked out.
|
| BS>spent virtually thousands of hours in the church,
|
| BS>I got out of church for the most part, and for all practical
| purposes, have been free of the church since I left Florida.
| (thank God)
=================================================================
Brian,
I read about a guy once that sounded a lot like you. He spent
lots of time in the scriptures, in fact he was a leader among
God's people. Unfortunately with all that knowledge he lacked
one thing....
John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named
Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
BS>I do have a relationship with God though, I have not lost sight
| of God, nor He, me. He helps me out conciderably, chastises me
| occassionally, and helps me to have an open mind and caring
| heart, despite the bitterness that was placed in my heart by
| abusive religious people.
=================================================================
Describe this relationship. Do you find that it is leading
you into, or away from the bible? Does this relationship you
have with god enforce or detract from the force of biblical
injunctions?
Concerning `abusive religious people', and I am very familiar
with them myself; is this anything new? I understand the
bittereness, but what did God have to do with it?....did He do
it? Wasn't it really those men?.....why are you angry with
God so when He didn't have anyuthing to do with your abuse?
II Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse
and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the
blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall
into the ditch.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love
of many shall wax cold.
You appear to have at least `seen' the mess, now it's time to
wipe the mud off and concentrate on your self for a
while....please do so by leaving the past behind and study the
bible without blind guides leading you into their paths.
BS> too late to turn around and be saved... I won't listen, my
| days of being abused in His name are over,
=================================================================
Good for you!.....I think you have the wrong idea about me and
what I stand for though. `Traditions of men' is one of the
primary things that I fight against. Fortunately it is not my
God that abuses people and deceives them into Martha service
instead of Mary peace.
Luke 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and
came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my
sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that
she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her,
Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many
things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen
that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
>>> Continued to next message
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Brian Shreve
To: Joseph Britt
Sub: RIGHTEOUS ANGER.... 1/2
Date: 09 Dec 93 04:46:20
--------
EID:0737 1b8925c0
MSGID: 1:106/113.0 2d0701fc
JB> lots of time in the scriptures, in fact he was a leader among
JB> God's people. Unfortunately with all that knowledge he lacked
JB> John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named
JB> Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
duh...what Nicodemus lack? Musta missed it.
JB> Describe this relationship. Do you find that it is leading
JB> you into, or away from the bible? Does this relationship you
JB> have with god enforce or detract from the force of biblical
I already have, you musta missed it. Please go back and re-read
the post, it says it all.
JB> Concerning `abusive religious people', and I am very familiar
JB> with them myself; is this anything new?
All fundies are abusive. You are abusive. And no, it is not new,
and it is deplorable.
JB> it? Wasn't it really those men?.....why are you angry with
JB> God so when He didn't have anyuthing to do with your abuse?
I am really sorry that you are blinded by the truth, and that the
fundies got to you. Ya know what the scriptures say about false
prophets? If you find one lie (something not coming true, in this
vernacular) then the so called prophet should not be believed at
all. Jesus killed himself, (no doubt) and your god made man with
sin (all men have sinned and come short of the glory of god) which
affected my life in such a negative way. The entire world of this
god of yours is based on vengeance, hate, vindication, killing,
and eating and drinking his son. (sure sounds satanic to me)
Ever concider the bible to be Satan's greatest hoax? There is
much evidence of it!
I hate your god. But I do love mine. Mine is good, yours is EVIL.
Drinking blood! Bleah! Killing men and woman and children in the
name of god!
JB> while....please do so by leaving the past behind and study the
JB> bible without blind guides leading you into their paths.
Ya know, we leave the past, then we'd have to forget about your
bible to. You have to be one big dummy (and I don't think you
are dumb, just greatly decieved) to think one can just forget about
the past. If it were possible, you can bet your booties that I'd
leave it behind in a heartbeat. I see folks who proclaim that
they "left their problems with Jesus", but ya know, they haven't,
their dreams and body memories and triggering stuff that rattles
them still. No way is that LEAVING it with Jesus.
I feel for your deception, your blinded eyes, and the willingness
to follow ever so blindly a god that wants you to do all these
yucky things.
Now you think I am wicked and vile and that satan has a hold on
my soul, and that I'm destined to hell for eternal damnation and
torment. Ah well. You can have your god, and drink his blood
and eat of his body, and worship a god that sends good people to
an everlasting torment and damnation. (these good people are gonna
suffer right along with the rapists, child molesters, murderers?)
Your god, clearly, is Satan.
...Brian
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: James Conwell
To: Robert Curry
Sub: POLITE
Date: 9 Dec 93 11:13:10
--------
EID:8be0 1b8959a0
MSGID: 1:106/7512 12b738ff
RC> If all humans are born without believing the Earth to be flat, then
RC> how could so many people ever have come to believe that? Think about
RC> it a little, James.
Yes, well all humans are also born without believing the Earth to be round.
All humans are born without believing anything.
Many humans will believe whatever stupid story they are told but many other
hu
mans don't need to be told anything. They simply use their imagination
to inv
ent lies for themselves to believe.
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: David Rice
Sub: Banning Occult Radio
Date: 04 Dec 93 12:46:46
--------
EID:1b62 1b8465c0
On (30 Nov 93) David Rice wrote to Hector Plasmic...
DR> >SS>??> Madelyn is also campaigning to remove all CHRISTMAS
DR> >SS>??> PROGRAMS, CHRISTMAS SONGS, AND CHRISTMAS CAROLS from public
DR> >SS>??> schools.
DR>
DR> "CHRISTMAS SONGS, AND CHRISTMAS CAROLS." What's the difference?
Christmas songs: Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer
White Christmas
Frosty the Snowman
A Christmas Song, by Mel Torme' (Chestnuts Roasting
on an Open Fire)
Deck the Halls
Christmas Carols: O! Little Town of Bethelehem
Silent Night
See the difference? One group deals with Christmas as the time of
Christ's birth; the other group deals with Christmas as a winter
festival having to do with Santa Claus, winter feasts, and the like,
with no mention being made of Christ's birth at all. Many atheists
celebrate christmas in the secular sense (i.e., give gifts to loved
ones, have a large feast and family reunion, etc.). I'm one of those
atheists that very much enjoys the christmas holiday. I LOVE giving
people gifts, and this is my golden opportunity to do exactly that. I
also love many of the culinary delights that one seems to only find at
christmastime, including fruitcake (which most people despise).
I have no personal objection to school children singing christmas sons
during the month of December, but I would scream like crazy if I heard
that my child was singing christmas carols at school.
As for what Madalyn O'Hair is doing, I don't recall reading anything in
the literature that I receive regularly from American Atheists, so I
have no way of knowing if she is doing anything at all. I doubt if the
person who originally thought up that post knows, either.
If the members of the organization she founded don't know if the
allegations in the post are true or not, my default position is that
they aren't true. Madalyn is either retired, or semi-retired. She
rarely gets involved in fights of that magnitude any more, as she is
old and her health is failing. Chances are, somebody dreamt up that
allegation as a means to stir up the troops against not her, but rather
what she stands for. Fundies seem to NEED a "devil" in order to focus
their considerable negative energies. She's as good a focus as any.
... To walk on water, you have to know where the rocks are.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Rocco Lamuro
Sub: Food for thought
Date: 05 Dec 93 11:57:03
--------
EID:cb5d 1b855f20
On (04 Dec 93) Rocco Lamuro wrote to MARILYN BURGE...
RL> Just to be clear: The act of being dipped in water, aside from the
RL> context, is inoffensive? Your objection is to the adults' reasons
RL> expressed to the children for the dip? A gym class involving swimming
RL> in a public school would then pose no problem. (Exercise, not Jesus)
Forget about the dipping. That isn't the issue. FORCING religion on
my child, albeit unwittingly on his part, is the issue. Coercing my
child into disrobing and participating in a superstitious ritual is the
issue. If my child can't get his ears pierced without parental
permission, then he shouldn't be coerced and/or into tricked into
participating in a superstitious ritual without my permission, or at
the very least knowlege either. And he certainly shouldn't be tricked
or coerced into participating in a superstitious ritual that HE doesn't
understand and fully consent to. THAT is what is wrong. It violates
my child's autonomy, not to mention violating his person.
... 28A - The hex of the beast
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: The Fact And Theory O 1/
Date: 05 Dec 93 12:02:38
--------
EID:05d7 1b856040
On (29 Nov 93) Kelsey Bjarnason wrote to Bill Wolff...
KB> Evolution can no more learn from its mistakes than can gravity. You
KB> are apparently incapable of understanding some REALLY simple ideas.
KB> Let's try them all again.
KB>
KB> Mutation, transcription error, and possibly other causes result in
KB> new information in the gene pool, and give a source of new traits.
Them's awfully big words, Kelsey, I doubt if he can follow them. Lemme
try to break them down to second-grade level for you.
Sometimes a piece of the genetic code is "misinterpreted" by
Mother Nature. When this happens, the kid looks different than
either of its parents -- sometimes in a significant way. When
this happens, we have what can be called "a new trait."
KB> Some traits are ridiculously harmful. For example, a human with
KB> the genetic make-up to cause a leg to grow where its brain should
KB> be isn't going to make it - chances are, it will never be born.
. . . .or, if it is born, will grow up to be a fundy who lies about
being one. . . .
KB> Other changes may be less harmful, but still detrimental. For
KB> example, a wolf born without legs isn't going to be able to
KB> hunt, and will likely die an early death.
. . . .or grow up to be a welfare leech. . . .
KB> Other changes may be even less harmful, but still detrimental. A
KB> zebra born with short legs, and thus an impaired ability to run
KB> quickly, is much more likely to succumb to prey than is the normal
KB> zebra.
. . . .unless it learns to mooch off the rest of the herd (see above).
. . .
KB> Let's talk about natural selection here for a moment.
KB>
KB> Natural selection is a process whereby contra-survival traits are
KB> removed from a population, and pro-survival traits are propagated.
KB> It is such a riculously obvious process that it is very much a
KB> truism. A brief summation of it could be "Them what lives, lives,
KB> them what dies, dies."
Yup. Very well put.
KB> Look, however, at what this implies, as regards traits. (We're
KB> only going to look at negative traits right now.) Look at the
KB> first trait listed above. While a mutation could occur with
KB> such a drastic result, the individual doesn't last long enough
KB> to reproduce - so the trait never gets propagated through the
KB> population. The same is true of the second trait.
KB>
KB> The third trait is a little less cut-and-dried. The animal may
KB> well live long enough to reproduce - thus introducing the trait
KB> to the population in general.
However, if the animal with the trait is male, he probably won't be
able to catch a female. If the trait is found in a female, it probably
would be passed along, as she wouldn't be able to outrun the male.
(This, of course, assumes that any female in her right mind would find
males with short legs to be singularly unsexy, and that the males with
longer legs would catch her and plant their seed first.)
KB> However, the individuals in which the trait is expressed - which
is
KB> to say, the zebras born with short legs - are more likely to be eaten
KB> than the rest of the population.
Yup. They can't run as fast.
KB> The result is that predators will tend to kill off more of these
KB> animals than the normal animals - the short-legged zebras are less
KB> successful in survival terms than the normal zebras. While they
KB> keep getting eaten, the normal zebras keep on breeding. The trait
KB> resulting in short-leggedness will eventually be removed, or at
KB> least greatly reduced, from the population as a whole.
Yup. I wonder why Wolff-man has such a hard time understanding these
points. They are self-evident to the rest of us.
KB> Which is to say, them what dies dies - and takes the unsuccessful
KB> trait with them, either immediately, or over succeeding generations.
KB>
KB> Looking only at the negative side, we can see that "mistakes" - which
KB> is to say unsuccessful mutations or traits - are removed from the
KB> population.
KB> It should, at this point, be easy to see how a pro-survival trait
KB> could be selected for, just as a contra-survival trait is selected
KB> against.
I suspect his confusion lies in the use of the word "select." It
strongly implies some sort of conscious choice, which is not what we
are talking about at all. Although there may be conscious choices
involved, as in the case of the short-legged zebra that the other
zebras think is ugly, there is no consciousness involved in the natural
selection aspect of the process (i.e., the other zebras aren't refusing
to date him because they don't want to have short-legged babies).
KB> Two more points need to be made here. The first being that this
KB> sort of selection is not limited to working on one trait at a time.
KB> Because of this, what *may* have been a pro-survival trait may die
KB> out because some other trait out-competed it at this stage. Not
KB> every pro-survival trait is guaranteed to be propagated.
Steven Jay Gould made this point rather elegantly at his lecture the
other night. The way he put it, and I paraphrase, was:
Suppose you've got an anthropod that is the most perfect
anthropod that ever existed. This anthropod is a survival
marvel. It has literally wiped out hundreds of lesser species
with its prodigious ability to survive. You would think that
NOTHING could cause the extinction of this wonderful survival
machine. Then the damned pond dries up. . . .
KB> The second is that the likelihood of a mutation producing exactly
KB> what is needed, when it is needed (the so-called "hopeful monster"),
KB> is slight.
KB> Successful populations are not those which are the best *possible*
KB> collection of traits, rather, the best overall collection of traits
KB> which actually occurred.
KB>
KB> Now, Herr Bill, please explain to me where learning, intelligence,
KB> guiding lights, or galactic overminds become apparent in all this.
I'm sure he's about to tell you. . . .
... Man who farts in church, sits in own pew.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: Pseudo-Factualist Fol 1/
Date: 05 Dec 93 12:26:28
--------
EID:088a 1b856340
On (29 Nov 93) Kelsey Bjarnason wrote to Bill Wolff...
KB> BW> JR> ... could you tell us why there are any genetic mutations
KB> BW> JR> (mongoloidism, hemophilia, etc.) at all? If these enzymes can
KB> BW> JR> fix "damaged" DNA, why do these exist?
KB>
KB> BW>Because it doesn't always work.
KB>
KB> Oh, look boys and girls. After being repeatedly pounded from all
KB> sides,
KB> Herr Factualist has finally changed his tune on this one. One should
KB> be thankful that miracles of this calibre take on such a benign form.
KB>
KB> Although if you look at species like
KB> BW>the horseshoe crab which remained stable for hundreds of millions
KB> BW>of years, something must be working okay.
KB>
KB> Yup. It's called "natural selection". You can read all about it in
KB> any number of books on evolution, any number of posts from users here,
KB> or creationist tracts. Of the three, I'd highly recommend using the
KB> first as the best approach, and the last as the worst.
Steven Jay Gould wrote a book called "Wonderful Life." It might be
worth the Factualist's time to read it and find out what SJG really
thinks, and get an explanation to all this from one whose life has been
devoted to the topic.
KB> That is, of course, if you're interested in the facts. So far, this
KB> has not been readily apparent from your posts.
The paperback edition of the book is around $15. Seems like pretty
cheap tuition to me.
KB> BW> JR> That's because fossils really started to form when creatures
KB> BW> JR> started developing hard features: plates, vertebrae, etc.
KB> BW> JR> Before that, they couldn't easily fossilize. Hopefully you do
KB> BW> JR> know that the Cambrian explosion did NOT set down the first
KB> BW> JR> fossils.
Gould dealt with the Cambrian explosion at great length in his lecture,
and I assume he discusses it at equal or even greater length in his
book (I have not yet read it, though I did buy it).
... The first rule of tinkering is to save all the parts.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Keith Rockhold
Sub: Not True Christian(tm)
Date: 05 Dec 93 15:42:15
--------
EID:37c3 1b857d40
On (03 Dec 93) Keith Rockhold wrote to David Rice...
KR> were saving the lives of MILLIONS of american soldiers and Japanese
KR> soldiers and civilians by dropping the bomb and bringing the war to
KR> a speedy coclusion. My country has done alot of aweful things over
KR> the years but you WILL NOT list that among them.
Documents have come to light recently, thanks to the Freedom of
Information Act, that clearly show that Japan wanted to surrender
BEFORE the bombs were dropped, but Truman chose to drop them anyway.
Therefore, the Japanese deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were totally
unnecessary, as was the genetic damage done to the survivors by the
bombs.
... Inerrancy isn't what it used to be.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 05 Dec 93 17:13:28
--------
EID:3453 1b8589a0
On (03 Dec 93) Steve Bedard wrote to Sunjester...
SB> S > SB> That is not what I asked. What would happen to the AIDS
SB> S >epidemic if
SB> S > SB> people followed the NT teaching of sex only within marriage?
SB>
SB> S >Here's a news flash for you, AIDS is spread by more than just sex,
SB> S >and
SB> S >is indiscriminate of your religious believes.
SB>
SB> I realise that. However, a large percentage of AIDS cases are spread
SB> by sex and if this area could be changed, there would be a major dent
SB> in the epidemic. Do you agree?
Reality check time here, Steve. We are sex machines. In fact, it can
be argued that we are put on this Earth for one thing, and that is to
propogage (in the naturalistic sense -- don't get me going about
religious claptrap to the contrary). That being the case, it is most
unlikely you will be able to see your plan for controlling the AIDS
epidemic. So, unless you can come up with something realistic --
something that the average person is going to think is a good idea --
save your breath. Your babblings are nothing more than wishful
thinking.
Why should a Moslem or Hindu follow the NT teachings regarding sex?
Give me even one good reason. Don't foget that any reason you come up
with will also be a good reason for you to follow their holy books.
... Heaven for climate; Hell for company. Mark Twain
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 05 Dec 93 17:17:21
--------
EID:d98b 1b858a20
On (03 Dec 93) Steve Bedard wrote to Fredric Rice...
SB> FR>sb> Yes that is what I was suggesting. Also, the description
SB> FR>sb> Luke gives suggests that she had not had sex.
SB>
SB> FR>Read it again. It says that she didn't know who the father was.
SB>
SB> Sorry, but "knew not a man" means she did not have sex.
Steve, we have been round and round about this. The gospel-writers did
not know Jesus personally, let alone know his mother. And, even more
important there is not one shred of evidence that any of them gave
Jesus' mother a pelvic examination to determine her physical status
prior to delivery of Jesus. You are grasping at straws, as were the
gospel writers who misinterpreted Isaiah and included this little
tidbit in their missives.
... To walk on water, you have to know where the rocks are.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bigot?
Date: 05 Dec 93 17:20:02
--------
EID:ca1a 1b858a80
On (03 Dec 93) Steve Bedard wrote to Hector Plasmic...
SB> Although by your definitions, it may not be a lifestyle, it is not
SB> normal since the typical standard is hetrosexuality.
It is every bit as normal as left-handedness, as both embrace about 10
percent of the population.
... Clones are people two.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 05 Dec 93 17:52:45
--------
EID:0602 1b858e80
On (04 Dec 93) Martin Goldberg wrote to Marilyn Burge...
MG> MG>> Abstance is fine, but absolute monogamy does just as well.
MG> MB> And it's one helluva lot more fun!
MG>
MG> Sure it is. It's safe sex with a partner of your choosing. You learn
MG> the likes and dislikes of the other. You needn't have to go out every
MG> night to expensive bars, either. But this distracts fromt he fact
You're right. You can buy one helluva lot of fifths of your favorite
for the price of a vewy few rounds of drinks. (I'll be you already
knew that, though, didn't you?)
MG> that the fundies would love abstinance to be the law of the land.
MG> Fact is, I can't see anything that would make adults refrain from sex.
MG> Nor should there be.
They can wish all they's like, but something tells me you and I will
continue to do exactly as we have been doing, whether they like it or
not.
... Pure drivel tends to drive away ordinary drivel.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 06 Dec 93 18:19:18
--------
EID:3453 1b869260
On (04 Dec 93) Steve Bedard wrote to Kelsey Bjarnason...
SB> KB> Those, I think, are the only ways. Which did you have in mind?
SB>
SB> Keep sex within marriage and abstain from drug use.
Drug use has nothing to do with getting AIDS, unless you are referring
to drugs that are made of blood products.
Other drugs do not in any way spread AIDS.
It is the use of used needles that spread the disease. If one stays
away from used needles, the risk of getting AIDS from drugs, whether
licit or illicit drugs, is virtually nil.
... Test tube babies get a womb with a view.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: QUENTIN FAI
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 08 Dec 93 14:47:00
--------
EID:e61d 1b8875e0
MSGID: 1:358/1 ab8ee39f
I was eavesdropping on Steve Bedard, and I heard:
SB> I realise that. However, a large percentage of AIDS cases are spread
by
SB> sex and if this area could be changed, there would be a major dent in
the
SB> epidemic. Do you agree?
A large percentage of food poisoning cases are spread by eating. If this
area could be changed, there would be a major change in the epidemic. Do
you agree?
* JABBER v1.3B1 #B135 * Prayers are always answered. The answer is usually
n
o.
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00H1
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From: QUENTIN FAI
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Banning Christian Radio
Date: 08 Dec 93 14:47:01
--------
EID:2e49 1b8875e0
MSGID: 1:358/1 ab8ee3a0
I was eavesdropping on Steve Bedard, and I heard:
SB> SS>MADELYN MURRAY O'HAIR, an atheist whose effort successfully
SB>
SB> Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Although there are many
SB> reasonable atheists out there, this lady is not one. I remember that
she
SB> once demanded that Ann Landers stop advising people to talk with their
SB> Pastor or Rabbi, as if it was any of her business.
This petition is a hoax, just like the Proctor, Gamble and Satan one.
* JABBER v1.3B1 #B135 * <<< Tagline deleted by Natl Endowment for the Arts
>>
>
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00H1
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From: QUENTIN FAI
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Hell Fire
Date: 08 Dec 93 14:47:02
--------
EID:3c0f 1b8875e0
MSGID: 1:358/1 ab8ee3a1
I was eavesdropping on Steve Bedard, and I heard:
SB> RC>I'll ask again: Do you, Steve Bedard, approve of torture?
SB> You are just a bit to persistent. No, I am not in favour of someone
SB> torturing another person. However, God is not forcing anything on anyone
.
SB> It is a persons choice of whether they want to go to Hell or not.
You're just being silly, Steve. You first have to prove that this god of
yours exists before saying it's going to send people to hell.
(PS-If there really is a hell, I want a bag of marshmallows thrown into
my
casket at my funeral :] )
* JABBER v1.3B1 #B135 * Monotheism is a gift from the gods!
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00H1
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From: Gwen Todd
To: Stephen Vakil
Sub: Back in the USSR
Date: 09 Dec 93 03:41:38
--------
EID:d767 1b891d20
MSGID: 1:128/68.0 2d074731
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7610
And it came to pass that Stephen Vakil spake thusly to Gwen Todd about
Back in the USSR
GT> Why don't you list all the evils of communism for us and see if we can't
GT> show you how democracy (yeah) as practiced by the US government is guilty
GT> of the same behavior....at least they had a solution for fundies...
SV> Just take a quick gander at the rule of Stalin in the Soviet
SV> Union and tell me if you still have any questions.
You catch the news....the US government lied about 204 nuclear
tests....did after they had said they would stop because they were
endangering the public. Now, what was that about how the US is better
than the USSR was...
Gwen
... I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
--- JAMin' w/FASTECHO 1.30!
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Russian Orthodoxy
Date: 07 Dec 93 16:08:04
--------
EID:063f 1b878100
On (04 Dec 93) Styx Allum wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SA> > ... 28A - The hex of the beast
SA>
SA> How delightfully original! Consider it stolen. ;-D
SA> (I just wish that I'd have thought of it first, damn it.)
I'm so honored! I just got a stolen tagline (re)stolen by the
moderator of my favorite echo!
... 5th Rule of Creationism: Lying for the Lord is okay.
--- PPoint 1.70
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From: Steve Rose
To: Ariadne
Sub: souls and superstitious people
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:02:01
--------
EID:54cb 1b881040
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d057f49
REPLY: 1:153/826 529fbd0c
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
A>
A> very least, I get comfort and and good feeling out of being a Wiccan...
A good substitute for the typical afternoon 'bridge club'. Nothing more.
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
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From: Steve Rose
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Bubble-head
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:08:02
--------
EID:8a84 1b881100
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d057db5
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a0424c
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
Sunday December 05 1993 09:07, Ariadne wrote to Dan Sereduick:
A> Dan, it's okay... he's a fundie and an athiest. We have to make
A> allowances for them, you know ...
And you cannot even spell the term 'atheist' correctly. But that's ok...we
ha
ve to make allowances, you know. ;-)
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
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From: Steve Rose
To: Erin Corliss
Sub: crustian
Date: 08 Dec 93 02:11:03
--------
EID:8f8d 1b881160
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d05801c
REPLY: 1:152/20 529f2b32
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
Hello Erin!
EC> A recent Christian bible banger buzz-phrase I've heard a few times of
EC> late goes "Everyone is a Christian inside.", or something to that
EC> effect. Even I have been called a "Christian inside".
Gag!!! It's enough to make one puke their guts out, eh! :-}
... Bless me, father...for I have SIMMed!
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 17:53:41
--------
EID:567c 1b888ea0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 06852400
REPLY: 1:2617/117 aa954d87
>> A request for evidence of an outrageous claim for which no evidence has
>> ever been provided before (despite the claim being quite old) is hardly
>> "making judgements before knowing the circumstances."
DS>That's your opinion.
Is god/dess worship old? Do you have any evidence that the outrageous
claim of gods materializing is real? If not, it's not personal opinion,
it's fact. If so, please share your evidence with us (for either
point), and I'll retract my statement as incorrect. How about this? If
you can't provide evidence for either, _you_ retract _your_ statement.
DS>You ruled out her beliefs as "bullshit" until she could
DS>properly prove her point
That's how it works: you can't prove negatives, Dan, but you can
provide evidence for valid claims.
Haven't you learned anything during your time here?
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Crucifixion fiction (1:380/16)
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Aaron Boyden
Sub: Re: Fundamentalists of all st
Date: 08 Dec 93 17:56:30
--------
EID:aa92 1b888f00
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0685ce00
REPLY: 1:206/2720 a98c595e
AB>Other theories are needed to show that the tests have in fact
AB>been adequately controlled.
Philisophical masturbation aside (sorry, I prefer the real thing), you
know that you test theories one at a time, Aaron. :-)
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Miscellaneous
Date: 08 Dec 93 17:57:26
--------
EID:4580 1b888f20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 06860600
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d051208
>>AA>Is this the Langford I'm thinking of?
>HPO> You must have me confused with Uri Geller. I don't read minds.
DR>But then, neither does Uri Geller.
Allow me to correct myself: I don't _claim_ to read minds. :-)
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Re: Not True Christian(tm
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:01:54
--------
EID:2dec 1b889020
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 06871200
SH>To call what we did an atrocity is to write history for the losers.
Yeah, killing millions of civilians is the way for civilized nations to
behave. It's the Christian thing to do.
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Re: Fundamentalists of al
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:04:59
--------
EID:29ee 1b889080
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 0687cb00
SH>Questions: Does it make a difference as to who is doing the
SH>observing?
You misunderstand (as a fundy, no doubt intentionally). Repeat the
experiment and observe for yourself.
SH>Finally, does the "confident observation" become a new theory, or
SH>does the old one stand refuted and that's the end of it?
Observation != theory. Observation == fact, as in "observed fact."
I can see you need the definition of a scientific theory:
"In order to talk about the nature of the universe and to discuss
questions such as whether it has a beginning or an end, you have to be
clear about what a scientific theory is. I shall take the
simple-minded view that a theory is just a model of the universe, or a
set of rules that relate quantities in the model to observations that
we make. It exists only in our minds and does not have any other
reality (whatever that might mean). A theory is a good theory if it
satisfies two requirements: It must accurately describe a large class
of observations on the basis of a model that contains only a few
arbitrary elements, and it must make definite predictions about the
results of future observations."
"Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only
a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the
result of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure
that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the
other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding a single observation
that disagrees with the predictions of the theory."
"In practice, what often happens is that a new theory is devised that is
really an extension of the previous theory. For example, very accurate
observations of the planet Mercury revealed a small difference between
its motion and the predictions of Newton's theory of gravity.
Einstein's general theory of relativity predicted a slightly different
motion from Newton's theory. The fact that Einstein's predictions
matched what was seen, while Newton's did not, was one of the crucial
confirmations of the new theory."
--from _A Brief History of Time_, Stephen W. Hawking, Bantam, 1988
SH>Any help would be appreciated.
Then I'm sure you're oozing gratitude. Next time, read a book.
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Just open the door, please, Hal.
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:06:22
--------
EID:ecba 1b8890c0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 06881e00
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a992dd5f
>hp> _Alien_, inspired by Vogt) and not so obvious ways (remember Dave
>hp> finding himself trapped in a pod outside the _Discovery_, without a
>hp> helmet, and the crazy computer refusing to let him in?
FR>HAL was _not_ crazy!
Stark raving mad: conflicting programming.
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Re: Don't be a moron, Al
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:15:14
--------
EID:e6a8 1b8891e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 068a3200
SH>Excellent point. I also can't send any edifying information which
SH>has a physical content and structure over the telephone wires or modem
SH>connection.
But you _do_ know how to write, don't you? Then write up what you claim
to
have done. We could use a good laugh.
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Re: OUT OF CONTEXT...
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:32:29
--------
EID:ef7b 1b889c00
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 069c4d00
SH>Flight overcomes gravity; defiance was not the proper word.
Neither is "overcomes." You seem to lack an understanding of both
gravity and flight. Hie thee to a library.
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Re: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:41:37
--------
EID:e5ad 1b889d20
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 069e7000
SH>Until I am convinced that I, all by myself, could have come up with the
SH>device in question, I will, of necessity, be compelled to acribe the
SH>feat to the powers of a God that I envision.
You can do so if you wish, but it is highly illogical. You know that
you exist; you have evidence of this. You do _not_ know that your
"envisioned" (imagined) god exists; you have no evidence (doubt it?
Share it).
If someone slaps you on the back of the head and, when you turn around,
there's only one fellow there, and he says "the invisible pink hippo did
it," you gonna take his word for it?
You understand, then, why we dismiss you as an idiot.
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Re: Russian Orthodoxy
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:47:37
--------
EID:358a 1b889de0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 069fd900
REPLY: 1:135/71 ab0671f2
JC>I admire Billy Graham greatly.
Well, of course you do. He doesn't ask you for evidence. Nor does he
have any of his own. You're two peas in the same ignorant little pod.
--- Tear a new one
* Origin: Ignorance simplifies any problem. (1:380/16)
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From: David Fire
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Josh mcdowell's testsEĒ
Date: 08 Dec 93 05:15:00
--------
EID:2027 1b8829e0
-=> Quoting David Rice to All <=-
DR> If there is one thing all sides can agree on, it is that Mark 16:9-20
DR> was added to the original manuscript by someone other than the
DR> original author. Remember that Mark 16:9-20 contains the only
DR> post-Resurrection appearances in the Gospel according to Mark.
DR> b) John's Epilogue was added on by another author.
DR> Chapter 21 of John is known to New Testament scholars as
DR> the "Epilogue" of John, added later on by someone eager to prove that
DR> Jesus was widely seen after the Resurrection.
I have heard this before form a friend of mine and was wondering
if you could tell me where I could the same infromation. I want a book
so that I can show it to my wife, who demands proof, and has not heard
this.
David Fire
... An elephant is a mouse built to gov. specs.
* LAKOTA v1.1
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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From: David Fire
To: David Rice
Sub: Re: Josh mcdowell's testsEĒ
Date: 08 Dec 93 05:31:00
--------
EID:2027 1b882be0
-=> Quoting David Rice to All <=-
DR> b) All Jewish documents are perfectly consistent in
DR> saying that Jesus was stoned to death and hanged on a tree.
DR>
I sent you a message already about getting information, mainly what
books would be reliabel source for this information. So if you would
please indulge me once more and send me the name of the book or books
that you found this information from I would be thankfull.
David Fire
... You will experience a strong urge to do good; but it will pass.
* LAKOTA v1.1
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
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From: David Fire
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: Re: Occult stuff....
Date: 08 Dec 93 05:38:00
--------
EID:3fed 1b882cc0
-=> Quoting Rick Vanderzwaag to All <=-
RV> For those of you who have Internet access, and have an interest in
RV> the occult. try FTP'ing over to 132.158.82.36 and have a look at what
RV> they have to offer. They have approximately 22 megs worth of texts on
RV> the occult, principally on the Temple of Set, Kabalah, Thelema, Orgone,
RV> and a few other interesting groups.
Since I don't have access to Internet, I was wondering if we could
make an arragement on how you could send it to me or some other way I could
get this infromation from you.
Thanks in advance,
David Fire
--- FreeMail 1.10 alpha-3
* Origin: BAYOU BBS ## West Monroe, LA ## 318-397-1822 16.8 DS (1:19/16)
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From: jonny vee
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Embryo Cloning
Date: 08 Dec 93 03:23:01
--------
EID:46ef 1b881ae0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0349cb
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbd3
PID: FM 2.02
> Today a populace has to exist with other nations which don't feel the
> need to keep their own populace ignorant. I may be entirely wrong
> but how can a nation compete successfully with others if they're
> scientifically ignorant while the competition is not?
It can't.
Better learn to speak Japanese, eh....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "We learn from history that we learn nothing from history" (1:215/6
06)
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From: jonny vee
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: What UFO? 1 of 3
Date: 08 Dec 93 03:29:02
--------
EID:92d3 1b881ba0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0349cc
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbd4
PID: FM 2.02
> jv>> the whole idea of FTL is not to break
> jv>> the rules, but to find a way around them.
> fr>
> jv> Now _that's_ an astute commentary if I ever saw one.
> Well, yes. I was looking at the comment and wondering
> what the different between breaking an immutable law of physics and
> "finding a way around them" would be.
> Perhaps it's possible for "borrow" a process much like virtual
> particles borrow energy/mass for a short time -- too short for the
> universe to notice and so to care.
That's an idea. I read an article in a back issue of Analog not too long
ago
that was about pumping energy into wormholes. Whatever the method, the
idea i
s not to break a law of physics by accelerating an object to superluminal
velo
cities, but to dodge it by, for instance, changing location without traversing
the space between.
The analogy would be that an airplane, for example, does not violate the
law o
f gravity, but rather applies other laws (lift) to ounteract it.
I have no more idea of what might do such a thing than an Anthropithecus
would
have of maglev trains, but it seems to me that it ain't out of the question.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Language is a virus from outer space" -- William Burroughs (1:215/
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From: jonny vee
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: EVOLUTION & INTELLIGENCE!
Date: 08 Dec 93 03:34:03
--------
EID:a703 1b881c40
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0349cd
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbd6
PID: FM 2.02
> You _could_ ask Bill yet how about asking David since he has his
> sources handy while I'm stuck here in Holland. My wife tells me that
> I have a stack of such papers on my computer room and my secretary
> tells me that I have a stack of "unusual" mail she was going to throw
> away.
Sounds like a plan. I don't know if Bill would admit to having them. I
haven
't seen an answer from him to anything I wrote yet, anyway. I guess he
knows
he'd be wasting his time trying to talk to me.
> Yet I'm away from my sources.
So I note. I was wondering what had happened since I last had a feed for
HOLY
SMOKE over a year ago. Are you in Holland for much longer? I assume this
is
a job kinda thing....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 08 Dec 93 03:39:04
--------
EID:ee28 1b881ce0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0349ce
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a914fbda
PID: FM 2.02
>A> When you die, it doesn't just disappear...
>A> that'd be contrary to physics!
> Physics, no less.
>>> Sorry, but physics has nothing to do with this religious nonsense.
> jv> Do you suppose he thinks his programs go on to some
> jv> kind of afterlife when he switches off his 'puter?
> We _could_ start a religion which dictates that computers never be
> turned off -- as that would be murder.
I recently read a book, _Artificial Life_, by Stephen Levy that indicates
we m
ay well be on that path. And on the other tentacle, there's this cat named
Fr
edkin, recently head of the AI dept. at Stanford or some such place, I forget
which one exactly, who says that our universe is a cellular automaton.
As for starting a religion, I'd be happy with one that has as its sole tenet
t
hat everyone should be kind, generous, and eager to please the founder,
that's
me, jonny vee....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: There's one born-again every minute.... (1:215/606)
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From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Mormons _just_ kill for god.
Date: 08 Dec 93 14:40:00
--------
EID:6e7b 1b887500
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bd5
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a98c2271
PID: FM 2.02
> Ask David about the SS coming to visit him and sit with him when
> George "The Baby Killer" Bush was in Southern
> California.
Must have been an interesting conversation.
> jv> but there's nothing you can be charged for unless you
> jv> conspire with others to do it, or take steps to do it
> jv> yourself.
> I hear that one must have both motive and access to the president
> before talk of killing him is considered important enough to watch.
> Prior to that I may get on the radio waves and explain why the
> president is an enemy of the people and why he must be removed from
> office one way or another.
Considering that even the most popular president will still be hated deeply
by
thousands, and considering also that in our violent society, idle talk about
killing people we don't like is pretty common, I reckon the SS just doesn't
ha
ve the resources to sit on everyone who says something stupid.
Personally, I happen to like the guy we have in office right now, at least
con
sidering the alternatives. Even during the previous twelve years of mismanage
ment, I don't think I would have wished assassination on the bastards (especia
lly considering who was VP), though impeachment would have been a good idea,
a
nd I STILL think prosecution would be a good idea.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "All 'isms' should be 'wasms'" -- Abbie Hoffman (1:215/606)
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From: jonny vee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 08 Dec 93 14:47:01
--------
EID:987f 1b8875e0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bd6
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e5e
PID: FM 2.02
> MG> SB> That is not what I asked. What would happen to the AIDS
> MG>epidemic
> MG> SB> if people followed the NT teaching of sex only within
> MG> SB> marriage?
> MG>Marriage means monogamy. Wouldn't that do just as well?
> Probally. Then do you agree with my original statement?
You don't have to be married to be monogamous. Polyfidelity also works,
as th
e Keristans can attest.
In any case, it is unrealistic to expect humans in this society to follow
your
BS (that's Belief System, before you get pissed off). Some can, some will,
b
ut many simply cannot.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "God has no religion" -- Mahatma Gandhi (1:215/606)
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From: jonny vee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Basis Of Belief
Date: 08 Dec 93 14:50:02
--------
EID:349e 1b887640
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bd7
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa109e60
PID: FM 2.02
> RC> SB> I consider encountering true Christianity after praying to God
> RC> SB> to reveal the true religon an experience.
> RC>But what was the actual experience?
> RC>A description, please, not your current "explanation" of it based
> RC>on your indoctrination.
> RC>What actually happened, is what I am asking.
> I have explained what happened already. I prayed that God would show
> me
> the true religon. A couple of months later, I was hired by some born
>
> again Christians and it was they that first explained the Gospel to
> me.
> Thats what happened.
And if you had been hired by some Mormons or JWs, you would have considered
th
at to be the "true religion" (another oxymoron)? Too bad you weren't hired
b
y a Jainist.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Mormons
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:01:03
--------
EID:a64e 1b887820
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bd8
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa119d73
PID: FM 2.02
> SQ>SQ>>SQ>>What makes yours right and his wrong?
> SQ>SQ>>SB> Do you base your life on your experiences or on the
> SQ>experiences
> SQ>SQ>>SB> of others?
> SQ>SQ>>You're attempting to dodge the issue: Steve Quarrella thinks
> SQ>you're
> SQ>SQ>>both full of beans. :)
> SQ>SB> And you are dodging this question.
> SQ>Oh, let's not play Socrates here. Tell me what makes your claim that
> SQ>God spoke to you right and Conrad's claim that God spoke to him
> SQ>wrong?
> I can't prove it. Since I am more aware of my experience than I am
> of
> his, I have to take mine over his.
That explains your own point of view, but why should anyone else consider
your
claim any more or less valid than Conrad's or any other person who claims
to
have a direct uplink to heaven?
I recall when I was a member of a 'charismatic' church, one woman thought
that
God told her I was taking drugs. I'm sure she was as aware of her experience
as you are of yours, but she was dead wrong, as I didn't even take aspirin,
m
uch less any of the kind of thing she was thinking of. I should be grateful,
though, for the object lesson I got in the ways people manipulate each other,
especially the ways that christians manage to keep up the appearance of
loving
kindness while they twist a knife in someone's back....
Most of the time, people who persist in claiming that God talks to them
are co
nsidered insane. If the church didn't have so much political power, it
might
be possible to get these poor folks some kind of treatment for their delusions
, unfortunately their religious BS reinforces the mental dysfunction, and
they
are left to their hallucinations unless and until they lose it completely
and
start shooting at people.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Everything we do is futile but we must do it anyway" Gandhi (1:215
/ 606)
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From: jonny vee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Russian Orthodoxy
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:02:04
--------
EID:eb2e 1b887840
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bd9
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa119d74
PID: FM 2.02
> MB>Christianity
> MB> is in one's heart.
> You are completely right!
I disagree. I think it's all in your mind.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Only the shallow know themselves" -- Oscar Wilde (1:215/606)
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From: jonny vee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Incest
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:38:05
--------
EID:36cc 1b887cc0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bda
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa119d78
PID: FM 2.02
> KB>SB>DC>And, why you are at it, please explain the biblical references
> KB>SB>DC>to incest as a means of progenation?
> KB>SB>Where does it allow it?
> KB> See Gen 19:30-38
> That passage is not saying that incest is acceptable. It simply is
> describing something that happened. Do think that when newspapers
> report
> a murder that they are advocating murder as a means of expression?
Your bible says that Adam and Eve are the ancestors of all humanity. It
menti
ons their sons, Cain, Abel, and Seth. It mentions that Cain had a wife,
but d
oesn't give her name or mention where she came from.
Now Gen3:20(KJV) says that Eve "....was the mother of all living." It's
not a
large step of logic from that to the deduction that whoever Cain and Seth's
w
ives were, they had to be their sisters as well.
If the biblical creation myth were true, then the only possible way in which
t
he human race could have gotten started would have been by incest.
If incest was unacceptable, then how do you suppose all that begatting got
don
e?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "The reverse side also has a reverse side" --Jap. proverb (1:215/60
6)
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From: jonny vee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Assurance
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:54:06
--------
EID:8e34 1b887ec0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bdb
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa119d79
PID: FM 2.02
> I am sorry to hear that the Christians you have met have lacked
> something
> in the moral department. I hope that you do meet some that are truly
>
> following the teachings of Jesus.
I used to play guitar in a christian musical group. We toured around the
Bay
Area and the San Juaquin Valley, got cheated on payment and accomodations
by s
everal churches, got all kinds of unkind treatment from people who think
drums
and electric guitars are instruments of the devil, and generally experienced
some very poor examples of christianity from a wide range of denominations
and
sects. It even eventually turned out that the leader/lead singer of the
grou
p, who was also an ordained Baptist minister, was ripping off the rest of
us.
In the several years I was in the church, and the year that I was with that
ba
nd, I saw literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of people who
were s
mall-minded, petty, greedy, bigoted and vicious. I saw a lot of people
who pu
t up a good show of brotherly love while they were busy trying to slip knives
into each other's backs, all the while telling themselves and everyone else
ho
w Jesus deserved all the glory for making them such good and righteous people.
I knew one, I repeat, ONE man who lived up to the ideal. He was the other
gui
tar player in the group, and he was truly a shining example of a person
who wa
s full of love, who did not seek advantage or gain, who did not harbor grudges
and ill will. I met a lot of christians who admitted that they were "not
per
fect, just forgiven", but only one who consistently did his level best to
meet
the example given by his lord.
If Ariadne has yet to meet any christians who are truly following the teaching
s of Jesus, it's no surprise. In my experience, much of which was what
you mi
ght call "backstage" in more than one sense of the word, the self-righteous
ba
stards outnumber the humble followers of Christ by an overwhelming margin.
You can keep your saints. I'll hang with the sinners; at least they don't
pre
tend to be so fucking righteous and, to be blunt, I find them to be more
hones
t, generally, than all the pious biblethumpers.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Ethics" means money, "Morals" means sex. (1:215/606)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Neal Feldman
Sub: Burning Bush
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:14:07
--------
EID:0568 1b8891c0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bdc
PID: FM 2.02
> Is anyone else aware that in the middle east there is a type of bush
> that is so full of oils that it will burn without consuming the bush
> for
> a considerable time (and the bush itself is somewhat flame resistant
> as
> well) and that such burning can even begin spontaneously?
> I forget the botanical name for this shrub but just thought this was
> a
> place which could use such a tidbit of trivia...
> Have fun...
Another tidbit....I recently read that a steady 12-knot wind blowing at
just t
he right angle up the Red Sea for six hours could push the water back and
leav
e dry (well, how 'bout "muddy"?) land as far down as Moses was alleged to
have
gotten his big buddy to part the waters.
I guess a miracle is not what it used to be.
I still recall one "miracle", actually two, from a fundie pamphlet that
I have
not yet seen explained. There was supposedly one occasion where god made
a d
ay last twice as long as normal, I forget why. Also an occasion where some
du
de was slaying heathens and was running out of daylight, so god held the
sun s
till in the sky (read "stopped the Earth's rotation" for those of you who
thin
k it's round) for an hour so the nice man could finish his slaughtering.
The odd part is that the pamphlet claimed that "scientists" have determined
th
at there really is a 25-hour discrepency between what time it is and what
time
it ought to be. What? Yeah, they said that there is an extra day and an
hou
r that is unaccounted for in secular history and that these two "miracles"
wer
e it.
And "scientists" proved it.
Another example (with background info on the cult):
During the period when I was hooked on "the opiate of the masses," I eventuall
y settled on a "Faith" church as my drug-of-choice. This was a non-denominati
onal prophet center (g) that generally followed the interpretations of Kevin
H
agen, who runs a "bible college" back in Arkansas somewhere. Their population
is an amalgam of ex-Pentecostals, refugees from the "charismatic" Catholic
mo
vement, and others who believe (in addition to the usual christian BS) that
th
e so-called "gifts of the spirit" currently operate, including speaking
in ton
gues, healing by laying-on-of-hands, casting out demons, and all that other
st
uff.
Another major theme of the "Faith" crew is that they can have anything they
wa
nt, "by faith". Based on a few obscure passages from the NT on the power
of f
aith, they believe that if they claim a thing in the name of Jesus, their
deit
y will somehow make it happen for them. If, that is, they really really
reall
y believe, and have True Faith (leaving the escape clause, when something
fail
s to happen, when some crippled child fails to magickally walk, or whatever,
t
hey'll just say, "You must not have had Faith enough."
Anyway, they believe that words have power. Back then, I had not studied
and
kind of magick, so I never realized the basis in ritual older than the Judeo-C
hristian tradition. According to them, it is the word that carries the
power,
that things happened _because_god_said_so_, and that, by faith, the words
of
believers could carry the same power to alter reality. If they really really
really believed.
Now the preacher was lecturing on this subject, and along with the exhortation
s that god means for his people to prosper, and the more you give the more
god
will give to you (guess who gets all the more that you're supposed to give...
.), in the middle of all this crap about how faith makes things happen and
how
the word has power, we were offered this little gem:
"Scientists" have demonstrated that a word spoken in an enclosed room will
lin
ger in the air for hours.
I've experienced farts that seemed to linger in the air, but I have no idea
ho
w modulated sound waves could possibly bounce around more than a few seconds
b
efore damping to a level where Brownian motion would randomize them. But
I sh
ould believe that preacher, because not only is he a representative of god,
bu
t also because "scientists" proved it.
Some of Jack Chick's horrible comic-book tracts also have these bogus claims
a
bout things that "scientists" say. Funny thing, though, whenever a reference
to scientists is made, the fundie making the claim never can recall just
who t
he scientist was, what his credentials were, or where the claim was published.
Do you wonder why?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: There's one born-again every minute.... (1:215/606)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Manson Finds The Lord God
Date: 08 Dec 93 18:59:08
--------
EID:6354 1b889760
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bdd
PID: FM 2.02
> Maybe GNR is attempting to sell records to the Jeezo-camp. I'm
> certain
> that the radical right will insist that it's a Satanic plot, as they
> did
> with "Christian Rock".
I hope you know that the '57 Stratocaster is the original "instrument of
the D
evil."
I was also amused by the woman (a "prophetess" in the church who later was
ins
trumental in getting me kicked out of same....and I still haven't thanked
her.
...) who told me "the beat can't be sanctified"
Then there's the one I heard "from an informed minister who has studied
rock m
usic for years" about how some "scientists" demonstrated that the playing
of a
"stopped-anapestic" rhythm damaged plants that were exposed to it.
BTW, I minored in music when I went to college, and I never ever heard of
a "s
topped anapestic rhythm", but since "Scientists Say...." it must be true.
I tr
ied to research this once, found that there is a poetic meter that is called
a
napestic, but I still don't see the relationship to rock music, and anyway
the
experiment itself is still apocryphal.
And, just like every other time, no one in the flock thought to ask who
these
"scientists" were and where the experiment was performed, etc. Of course,
thi
s kind of info is never volunteered, just "Scientists Say: ______(insert
your
own unsupported claim here)_____________"
>>>DR> He is up for parole in 1997.
Chuckie's been up for parole more than once already.
> SQ>> If he gets out, I'm buying an assault rifle. Seriously.
> DR> You should probably buy one anyways, and one for the spouse. I
I agree with DR: you should probably have one, but not because of Chuckles
Man
son. As long as the collective IQ of the parole board is greater than the
sum
of their shoe sizes, we should be abler to rest assured that he will remain
X
-ed out of our world and kept in prison, where I hear the other inmates
tortur
e him as regularly as prison decorum (cough) allows.
Like Bobcat Goldthwaite said on the occasion when Charlie was "accidentally"
s
et on fire: "I bet they were just lining up for a chance to put it out...."
> As you say, "I crap you negative." I won't sleep at nights knowing
> that
> Manson's out there.
You might as well get yourself a big jar full of those little white pills,
the
n, 'cause there's plenty of twisted little motherfuckers just as bent as
Mans
on out there right now.
> DR> I suspect it will sell tens of millions. Some groups are
> DR> working to make laws against this very thing--- criminals
> DR> making money off of their crimes.
May as well let Charlie make a buck....then take it all away to pay a little
b
it of restitution to the victim's families.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: There's one born-again every minute.... (1:215/606)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: You need a mind enema
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:32:09
--------
EID:1c99 1b88a400
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bde
PID: FM 2.02
Greetings, Earthling,
> SQ>> Go ahead, tell me I'm angry, tell me I'm empty.
> JC> You are angry. You are empty.
> See? You cannot understand what it's like to be a non-deity believer,
> so you create fiction to explain it for you. You DO make God in your
> own image.
May I volunteer a speculation?
Perhaps he *does* understand what it is like to be a non-deity believer,
or sh
ould I say, he understands what it was like FOR HIM to be a non-believer.
Those who end up relying on the crutch of religion are oftentimes people
who r
eally do need a crutch. A person who has the emotional substance to honestly
face life without need of some pie-in-the-sky fantasy to bolster their worldvi
ew is not an easy sell for the christian mythology. A person who is experienc
ing an existence of turmoil and anxiety, on the other hand, may find the
conce
pt of a super-friend who is in charge of everything to be quite attractive.
The christian myth begins with the assumption that all human beings are
innate
ly sinful. It asserts that a human can not achieve "true" happiness and
fulfi
llment unaided. It claims that only with the help of their supernatural
frien
d can a person find peace of mind.
If one should be "empty", if one should be unable to know love or thankfulness
, the christian myth teaches that not only do they have the only cure for
the
human condition, but by implication they teach that if your life is fucked-up,
it's not your fault. You couldn't achieve the good life without god's help
a
nyway, so your failure to do so through your own efforts is to be expected.
I offer you the suggestion that christianity is largely populated by humans
wh
o, in their previous lives, did indeed feel empty and loveless. Their abdicati
on of personal responsibility for their lives has relieved them of their
angst
, and somehow their fantasy construct, with the complicity of their coreligion
ists, has made it possible for them to believe that their god has delivered
on
the promise of "true" fulfillment.
This, then, may explain Jesse's delusion. I think it likely that he was
unabl
e to feel these things until he joined the Jesus cult, and infers that his
own
experience of "emptiness" is universal among all of us who do not have the
be
nefit of his supernatural crutch.
> I am reminded of an old Charlie Brown cartoon in which Lucy was
> explaining to Linus, quite seriously, that "This is a palm tree.
> It gets its name because you can put your palm around it." This
> went on for several pages, as Lucy "explained" more and more, and
> Charlie Brown finally cut in and told Suzy that she was filling
> Linus' head all full of crap, and he couldn't bear to listen any
> more. Lucy, being smug in her ways and knowing "the truth", just
> ignored Charlie Brown and kept on and on,
Lucy must have learned from Goebbels: if you make the lie big enough, and
repe
at it often enough, it will go over. Most people who are selling something
as
big as a BS are quite conversant in the tactic of the Big Lie.
> know about something, and it frightens you, I suppose. To escape
> that fear, you make up a character based on an old culture that will
> explain everything you don't understand, and you feel all better?
> Is that it? If that's the case, I have several questions:
Actually, he does not make up the character, it is made up for him. Christiani
ty is, if nothing else, a complete BS. The believer gets a package deal
which
"explains" everything from the beginning of the world to the end of the
world
, with every important detail pre-processed and spoonfed in regular installmen
ts.
> 1) Doesn't this sound like the behaviour of a narcotics addict?
I once went on a mission with a preacher who claimed he was hooked on the
bibl
e; he said he had a ten-chapter-a-day habit.
> 2) Doesn't this sound a lot like early man, who, because he could
> not understand lightning or rain or fire or death, simply created
> "higher powers" and attributed those aspects of nature to those
> powers?
His religion claims to be so "early" as to go to the beginning of human
existe
nce. Too bad it hasn't matured much, but at least the patina of age gives
the
believer a comforting feeling of lasting solidity.
> 3) What makes your God any better than my Dopefish? Why don't
> you just turn around and say "Love and gratefulness and thankfulness
> comes from Dopefish"? Cut the "blasphemy and heresy" bullshit that
> you try with Robert Curry; I'll only laugh at you harder.
Unfortunately, your Dopefish does not carry the perceived authority of million
s of believers and centuries of established belief. No problem; just be
persi
stent, accumulate sociopolitical power and influence over the generations,
and
eventually you will be revered as the prophet of Dopefish, and worshipped
by
millions of future gullibles with just as much facility for critical reasoning
as our pal Jesse here.
> JC> Try meditating on the question for awhile. Religious faith is
> JC> more about questions than it is about answers.
Actually, he's got a point there, but all too few religionists have the
stones
to face up to the fact that some questions don't have any answers -- and
some
questions are just plain meaningless. And few religionists ever manage
to co
me up with very good questions in the first place.
> the middle man." It seems to be a matter of concern for you
> that there are people out there who can handle life (both the
> goods and the bads) just fine without your deities.
Of course it's a matter of concern. If other people can do just fine without
his deity, then that opens the possibility that his BS may not be the one
and
only solution to life's problems that he thought it was.
> No, Jesse. Your Satan has not been proven to exist. I, however,
> am for real, and I have the potential to deliver. I'll let you
> sit and ponder for a while: What keeps me from going out and
> shooting up a 7-11 and going around robbing banks and eating
> little children, since I do not profess a belief in your deity?
> Are you going to tell me that your deity makes sure I do none
> of that? If so, why didn't he stop Charles Manson?
Your own ethics and the prospect of getting caught and punished are sufficient
restraint, I would think. The religionist has much the same restraints,
actu
ally, just that he thinks his ethics are handed down from On High and that
pun
ishment is inevitable and eternal.
> year. You are badly mistaken in your belief that people need your
> deity in order to function properly.
But he has to believe this or his whole BS becomes indefensible.
> Have you seen GOD$LOVE.GIF? It is a -damning- blow to what you
> are presenting
I keep hearing about this. Where can I file request GOD$LOVE.GIF?
Anyway, I think it's not hard to understand Jesse's belief that everyone
must
be miserable without his particular crutch, because that's what his experience
was, and his continued enjoyment of his blissful fantasy requires that there
be no other way.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Everything we do is futile but we must do it anyway" Gandhi (1:215
/ 606)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Judaism
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:20:10
--------
EID:3291 1b88aa80
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8bdf
REPLY: 1:247/126 aa8ded47
PID: FM 2.02
> When do you think Judaism first started?
When the first con man met the first mark....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: There's one born-again every minute.... (1:215/606)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: ELECTRONIC BOM
Date: 08 Dec 93 21:42:11
--------
EID:b7f3 1b88ad40
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab0e8be0
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet a98aa3f6
PID: FM 2.02
> It took me some time to recall the reference, yeah. I had read this
> again while here in Holland and it rang something of a bell. And,
> you know, I would like to see a third book for the ring world. I
Me too. Oh well, look how long we had to wait for _The_Gripping_Hand....
> would have expected either the puppeteers or Kizin to have tried to
> take it over -- except that they would need the puppeteers ships,
> wouldn't they?
They have them, and so do the humans.
They'd need a hell of a lot more than ships to "take over" an object the
size
of the Ringworld, eh? By rough estimate, the Ringworld has about four
millio
n times the land surface area of Earth. One could imagine seizing the Repair
Center, but that is not the same as controlling the vastness of that particula
r wheel.
I wish Larry would think of _something_ to do with those characters, though.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: There's one born-again every minute.... (1:215/606)
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From: jonny vee
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: The Xtian fraud called Piltdown Man
Date: 09 Dec 93 00:44:00
--------
EID:505f 1b890580
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab806f3d
PID: FM 2.02
> (For a good laugh, see his reply to j. vee and his plaintant
> wails about paranoia. Methinks he doth protest too much.
> Methinks he is also a shithead.)
I thought so too. Recognized this fact early on, and I really, honestly
was n
ot going to waste my time and annoy the pig, but when I saw the looong post
yo
u sent him, where you apparently spent considerable time attempting to allevia
te his ignorance, and then saw his asinine response, I just had to take
a mome
nt of my time to let him know what an asswipe he is. Besides, I was in a
bad m
ood that night already.
I really don't understand why an obviously intelligent and educated person
lik
e yourself would choose to waste your fucking time with a halfwit like Ron,
bu
t I figure everyone has a hobby....myself, I'm going to try to restrain
myself
; no sense duplicating effort when you're doing such a good job of evisceratin
g the little snotnosed punk.
Please carry on....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 00:54:01
--------
EID:53f4 1b8906c0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab806f3e
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 055eec00
PID: FM 2.02
> jv>Got to be my favorite album of theirs. I'd give my left nut to be
> jv>able to sing like that. I can only consile myself that I am a
> jv>better bassist.
> Oh, play Bouree' for lunch, eh (Hammond-Hammond wasn't their only
> bassist :-)?
After _YYZ_ and _La_Villa_Strangiato_, _Bouree_ is something I should be
able
to knock off for a light snack, though I might prefer to have the sheet
music
in front of me. And I know H-H wasn't their only bassman; he didn't join
unti
l after Aqualing, if I recall correctly. And the old one went on to join
a gr
oup called Paris, but I can't for the life of me remember his name.
> Actually, I believe Ian would take that album back if he could. He
> claims to have hated "Bungle in the Jungle"'s popularity, and a
> couple
> of the songs were from other albums he never released because they
> were
> so bad ("Skating Away (on the Thin Ice of a New Day)" comes to mind).
> Gimme _Songs from the Woods_ anytime (should thrill our pagan readers
> :-).
I thought _Bungle_ was OK, but the real gems for me were _Angels_, _Sea_Lion_,
and _Two_Fingers_.
As you slip on the greasy platform
And land upon your back
You say a prayer, and wipe your nose
Upon the railroad track
And the high-strung locomotive
Furnace burning bright
Lumbers on, you wave goodbye,
And the sparks fade into night
Uh-huh.....
I really liked the arrangement, with soprano sax against acoustic guitar.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Why? Because I said so!!!
Date: 09 Dec 93 00:57:02
--------
EID:692c 1b890720
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab806f3f
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 05618a00
PID: FM 2.02
> Don't bet on it. Once you create self-reproducing machines, unless
> they
> reproduce _perfectly_, natural selection comes into play. You may
> well
> feed in R2D2 and get back a Berserker.
Or a V-ger?
Heh heh....
You could put something that would correct errors in replication (just to
anno
y Wolff), but I see your point.
Did you ever read the David Brin short story with the numerous different
VonNe
umann probes in the asteroid belt?
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Why?
Date: 09 Dec 93 01:11:03
--------
EID:da6b 1b890960
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab80f865
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 056fdf00
PID: FM 2.02
>> > Strawman. We're talking about space-faring races, remember?
> jv>Evidently YOU are.
> This topic began with someone talking about how we've been visited by
> aliens...
I got the impression that you were talking about searching for space-faring
ra
ces, implying that anyone worth visiting would be sending out radio signals.
I
t is my opinion that that assumes too much, and that non-technical races
as we
ll as races whose technology followed a much different path may still be
quite
worthy of our attention.
> jv>What facts are you referring to?
> Pay attention. Already gave 'em to you at least twice, with
> references,
> no less.
> jv>As I asked you before, how many extraterrestrial civilizations do
> jv>you think there are in this galaxy? Or what would you consider a
> jv>reasonable guess?
> Dammit, Jonny, PAY ATTENTION. Already answered that one, too. :-)
> Gave
> you Sagan's figures and said I saw no reason to disagree with them,
> remember?
I hate to sound like the fundies, but I honestly never saw 'em. And I was
sta
rting to feel neglected after having sent off that big long three part post
an
d getting so little in return (grin). I know for sure I never saw anything
wi
th Sagan's figures, as for other facts, I don't know if I never got them
or if
I got them and didn't see your point; I don't see where my speculating contra
dicts any known facts, but (unlike our fundy friends) I'll admit to being
fall
ible, and if we can agree on facts that contradict my speculations I'm willing
to concede the point. Shit, it ain't like I'm claiming to have the Word
Of G
od (tm) or something like that.
Just to keep from nauseating those whose echo feeds are more dependable
than m
ine, and in the interest of not wasting bandwidth, why don't youlet me know
if
you can dig up your archives and make it available for file request, and
I'll
cheerfully pick it up on my dime. You won't get a better offer from anyone
e
lse who has the time to argue with you about LGMs (grin).
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Why?
Date: 09 Dec 93 01:31:04
--------
EID:15e6 1b890be0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab80f866
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 056fdf00
PID: FM 2.02
> Trivial: Radio waves don't break down, get hit by debris, don't
> generally go off course (except in the vicinity of extremely massive
> bodies) or forget their programming. Besides being vastly more
Yeah, radio waves may be a lot easier, but they're also less flexible. VonNeum
ann machines give you the bonus of reporting back all kinds of data regardless
of whether or not they succeed in finding life, and they will find any kind
o
f life, not just folks that use radio.
> they're much, much, much cheaper to produce.
If you fully understand the concept, you should realize that the necessary
inv
estment is only that needed to produce the first device. After that, they
mak
e themselves. If you lose a few, it's no big deal. They'll make more.
Just for laughs: I have the lobotomizer on in the background. Alan ALda
is n
arrating a show on computers. I'm watching a human Shakespeare expert
lose a
Turing test....now someone is talking whimsically about their townhouse,
but
they haven't said whether it is a human or a machine...I'm guessing machine...
.Hmmm...it was a program, but 5 of 5 judges were fooled. And 2 of 5 thought
th
e human Shakespearean scholar was a program, mainly because she was so on-the-
ball that the judges thought it had to be a database.
Interesting times indeed....I wonder if I could write a Fundy Biblethumper
pro
gram that would pass a limited Turing test. Shouldn't be too hard, since
the
average Fundie is severely limited in context, vocabulary and comprehension...
.
jv
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From: jonny vee
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: .
Date: 09 Dec 93 01:36:05
--------
EID:739a 1b890c80
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab80f867
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 05722b00
PID: FM 2.02
> EC>A recent Christian bible banger buzz-phrase I've heard a few times
> EC>of late goes "Everyone is a Christian inside.", or something to that
> EC>effect. Even I have been called a "Christian inside".
> Just remind them that their mother got fucked, just like yours. Be
> sure
> to use those exact words.
> One buzz-phrase deserves another.
Working on starting a trend, Mr Plasmic?
Before I use it on anyone, can you tell me if this buzz-phrase is from anywher
e in particular?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: David Rice
Sub: "Ringworld"
Date: 09 Dec 93 01:41:06
--------
EID:e453 1b890d20
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab80f868
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d051212
PID: FM 2.02
> The way I'd write the third book:
> [ .... ]
> Louis goes with the probe and picks up Chmeee. Together they unite
> with Nexus, and meet the arival of the Ramjet fleet.
Sounds interesting. Why not send it to Larry?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Stephen Vakil
Sub: Back in the USSR
Date: 09 Dec 93 01:55:07
--------
EID:7bdd 1b890ee0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab80f869
REPLY: 1:11/156.0 2d0100f4
PID: FM 2.02
> jv> done anything evil that the US has not also done. She
> jv> was bringing up an example of something the US
> jv> government did that was comparable to something Stalin
> jv> did: pulling people out of their homes and forcibly
> jv> relocating them under harsh conditions. In the US,
> jv> that was (in this example) what was known as the Trail
> jv> of Tears, when the US Army forcibly relocated a tribe
> jv> of Amerinds halfway across the continent; many dies on
> jv> the way. As for punishment or attempts at punishment,
> jv> there were none that I have heard of.
> I am talking about recently, like this century. True, we
> have committed minor acts of evil, but nothing compares
> to some of the things done in both russia and Europe
> this century.
You mean like putting Japanese-Americans into prison camps during WW2?
> jv> Why don't you ask her how far in the past it was that Indian women
who
> jv> went into government hospitals for any reason at all
> jv> were routinely sterilized without their permission or
> jv> knowledge? We have democracy, or what passes for it,
> jv> but we also have constant abuses of power and a
> jv> population that should know better than to allow these
> jv> abuses to happen.
> The point is not whether or not we have committed wrongs,
> but the severity of the wrongs. Stalin, Hitler, etc.
> committed much more atrocious acts.
So, like, they're evil, but we're not, because we didn't kill as many people
a
s they did? Our near-total extermination of the Amerinds is somehow less
hein
ous than Stalin's purges because we did most of our killing fifty years
earlie
r? Or is it because we only killed off a bunch of savages in the holy name
of
Progress and Stalin killed a lot of white people?
Hitler may have been more efficient at the art of genocide, but it's a game
mo
st industrial nations have played, all around the planet. Face the facts,
Mr
Vakil.
> jv> And just what did Stalin do? All I heard was that he was a bad man,
> but
> jv> considering some of the other utter bullshit I've
> jv> heard from the people who told me that, I'd as soon
> jv> hear what he did and base a judgment on that.
> I am not completely sure as to what specifically he did,
> but
> I know he starved a lot of his people, and killed more
> than
> any one dictator had in the history of the country
> (including
> Ivan the Terrible).
OF course he did. He had the advantage of 20th century technology. I venture
to say that if we started off at Plymouth Rock today, we'd have them Injuns
a
ll dead or tamely on reservations inside of ten years, using modern methods.
And, by the way, the routine sterilization of Amerind women (WITHOUT their
kno
wledge or consent) who were treated in BIA clinics was in the last decade
or s
o.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Why there must be 10's and 10's of them.
Date: 09 Dec 93 02:06:08
--------
EID:b9f6 1b8910c0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab80f86a
PID: FM 2.02
> jonny vee, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Hector
> Plasmic:
> jv> As I asked you before, how many extraterrestrial civilizations do
you
> jv> think there are in this galaxy? Or what would you consider a
> jv> reasonable guess?
> Are you familiar with the "Green Bank" formula?
I think so, but I can't recall the formula. Something like the number of
star
s in the galaxy times the fraction of them which might be able to have life-su
pporting planets times the fraction of such planets on which life actually
com
es into existence, etc etc.?
If you happen to actually have the formula handy, I'd like to see it in
here.
If I recall correctly, though, evaluating the formula can be somewhat ambiguou
s, considering that the values for such factors as "fraction of suitable
plane
ts on which life ectually occurs" and "fraction of civilizations that manage
n
ot to nuke themselves in the first fifty years" would have to be completely
ar
bitrary numbers at our current level of knowledge, so in the end you're
just g
uessing anyway. I suppose that a decent max estimate of how many habitable
pl
anets there are would at least put a cap on how many, but that would still
be
a (cough) astronomical number.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: tagline
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:39:00
--------
EID:dd89 1b88bce0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a5032e
RC >... If I wanted your opinion I'd beat it out of you!
Hehe... my favorite:
If I want your opinion, I'll read your entrails.
;)
Ally
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From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: OUT OF CONTEXT...
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:40:00
--------
EID:938f 1b88bd00
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a50352
RC >I'll write a program to pray for him in the background.
Ah, the modern prayer wheel. I believe such programs already exist. If
you¨
like, I can take a peek...
Ally
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From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:42:00
--------
EID:20ae 1b88bd40
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a503ca
RC > A> Hello? Hello?? I'm over here boys.
RC >Don't interrupt - we're arguing. :-)
Grin...
RC >Fine, fine. If you insist.
Well, of course I don't mind a person doing the occasional distraction tactic
for me... after all, we're all in here to gang up on each other, right?
RC >... Go ahead. Forgive your enemies. That really pisses
RC >them off.
I couldn't agree more . Ever actually do that to someone? I have...¨
i
t's a real giggle, especially when they're professing to be a Fundamentalist
Christian to you...
Ally
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From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:45:00
--------
EID:7742 1b88bda0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a50484
RC > A> Okay, but why? It's easy (*too* easy) to just run around going
RC > A> "bullshit, bullshit".
RC >As in your previous post to Tyler Wunder, I note. :-)
I don't know what you mean... Hmm... I *try* to keep track of who I write
to,
and I don't recall writing to a Tyler. Then again, could be one of those
bad
days that I've missed somewhere along the line
RC >In the case of your claims about life being an "energy" that
RC >continues
RC >like a "soul" to "live" after death, it's bullshit because
Well, since I stated it not as a fact but as a subjective thing, as an¨
*opini
on*, as Hector would want to hear, I don't see what difference it makes.
RC >audacity
RC >to call it physics! Simply astonishing. That's why it's
I didn't call it physics. I said that, should I turn out to be right that¨
th
ere is a something known as soul or consciousness or whatever, that it can't¨
just disappear or cease to exist after death. It must become something
else.¨
Nothing in this universe just ceases to exist.
Allyson
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From: Ariadne
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:48:00
--------
EID:9af5 1b88be00
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a5053c
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d019c4b
TW > Based on what do you form this belief? Incredulity?
Well, since I have to suspend my disbelief in order to believe *any* theory
of
¨ the creation of the universe (at present anyhow, since it cannot yet be¨
*pr
oved*), I choose to believe the one I do. I find there's too much argument¨
f
or evolution. But I find something fundamentally displeasing about the¨
thoug
ht of everything (including myself) being random bumping atoms or¨ whatever.
I base my belief on my own personal interpretation of the universe.¨
Ally
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From: Ariadne
To: Karl Lembke
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:50:00
--------
EID:2704 1b88be40
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a505e0
REPLY: 1:102/943.0 2d0122aa
KL >I also tend to doubt the anti-sacrifice sincerity of a
KL >person
KL >who doesn't have body lice, insects in his home (what? using
KL >a fly swatter? Shame on you!!), or takes antibiotics when
KL >ill.
Well, as I said, I don't like sacrifice, but I have been known to support
the
commercialized aspects of it (head hanging in shame). I've been brought
up on
¨ steak and potato meals, and am finding the transition to rice, vegetables,
a
nd¨ beans/lentils/etc. to be difficult. I attempt not to kill bugs, instead¨
throwing them out onto the tree outside my apartment... And most antibiotics
available have a rather drastic tendancy to cause me to die... .
Ally
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From: Ariadne
To: David Rice
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:55:00
--------
EID:f20f 1b88bee0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a50708
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d034cea
DR >worship. (I don't eat animals of any kind.)
I'm still working on it. I'm not ready at all to even contemplate giving
up¨
milk, cheese or eggs. But I"ve cut red meat out all together, and am down
to
one or less servings of chicken/turkey a week. My fish intake is about
equal,
¨ unless we go out for dinner (prawns in garlic butter just make me drool...¨
sigh).
DR >What really annoys me to no end are the people who buy their
DR >meat
DR >in bright, clean, plastic containers in stores under neon
DR >light,
DR >arranged neatly in long rows, painlessly and anaseptically,
Uhhuh. I always try to take a minute to remember what kind of animal the
meat
¨ I'm eating came from. I'm lucky, in that I have free range meats available
to¨ me at a reasonable price. And it's not packaged, nor antiseptic ...
¨ I've also helped in the slaughter of chickens for food on a farm, so I'm
awa
re¨ of what happens and how it happens before it hits yer table.
DR >extremely good that the animal flesh they purchase in the
DR >stores
DR >died a screaming, terrified, inhumane death, far greater
DR >than the
DR >deaths of animals sacrificed in religious rituals. And yet
You got it. That's my point! I hate listening to people harp on about
evil¨
animal sacrifice while they're chomping away on a McDonald's burger (mind
you,
¨ the actual meat content in them is pretty low...grin).
Allyson
---
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--------
From: Ariadne
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: bi/sexual
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:59:00
--------
EID:3e98 1b88bf60
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a507e0
REPLY: 1:100/4 86021DA2
GG >... Cadaver eyes... upon me see...
GG >NOTHING!
Aha! I knew it! Alice Cooper Alice Cooper... love 'im. Ya gotta!
Ally
---
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Jay Noyes
Sub: which indeed?
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:19:02
--------
EID:ecdf 1b898260
On (04 Dec 93) Jay Noyes wrote to Robert Curry...
SB> You may be able to get a thousand people to pray the sinners
SB> prayer but how many of them will actually make a change in
SB> their life?
RC> So even you recognize how generally useless such silly religious
RC> mumbo-jumbo is in reality.
JN> Now, just which reality are you speaking of?
This one. Or were you thinking of one that has Klingons in it?
... Thank you for engaging the auto-destruct sequence.
--- PPoint 1.68
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Jay Noyes
Sub: Higher power
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:20:21
--------
EID:c683 1b898280
On (05 Dec 93) Jay Noyes wrote to Ariadne...
JN> Couldn't it be possible that there is power out there that is
JN> only accessible through our belief in that power,
That would be Daisy, as She flies overhead.
JN> or possibly subconciously.
JN> I don't know, I just thought it was an interesting thought.
The invisible pink hippo is the source of all interesting thoughts.
... "Just look at these newborn kittens!" she commanded literally.
--- PPoint 1.68
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--------
From: Robert Curry.
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Ignorance = god dun it!
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:24:33
--------
EID:81cd 1b898300
On (07 Dec 93) Stewart Harris wrote to JASON ROSENDALE...
SH> I never said anywhere that I built a perpetual motion machine.
So what did you say you built?
SH> the judge declared permanent magnets to be a source of energy
And did the judge also declare pi to be equal to 3.000?
SH> all seem to feel I am ignorant, stupid or insane,
Or perhaps a charming combination of the three. Aren't we all?
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Tim Bennett
Sub: Food for thought
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:25:46
--------
EID:b4c4 1b898320
On (01 Dec 93) Tim Bennett wrote to Rocco Lamuro...
TB> Quite simply, there is NO higher power to deny.
Depends on how high the transformer is on the pole.
TB> As to the 'primitive ritual' suppose there was a religion that
TB> had a ritual of burning the hair off the heads of their followers.
"Oops! We didn't mean to burn that hateful heathen to death! We only
wanted to set his hair afire for the LORD."
... Faith can move mountains - imaginary ones.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: MOSHE SHULMAN
Sub: History, historians, and
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:27:08
--------
EID:8c2f 1b898360
On (06 Dec 93) MOSHE SHULMAN wrote to FREDRIC RICE...
MS> Provide facts for your fantasy.
"Do as I say, not as I do," he says!
So when are you going to provide any facts to support your claim
that there is a ghost who picked Jews to be "his" people?
Moshe, your entire religion is built on a sick fantasy, and yet
you have the audacity to demand someone _else_ to provide facts
for their fantasy. Now that is funny!
... You are cordially invited to answer the question.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Specialty bullshit
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:33:12
--------
EID:7e67 1b898420
On (07 Dec 93) Dan Sereduick wrote to Hector Plasmic...
DS> I would argue that a "lunatic" believes a wall to be there, where
DS> we percieve there not to be one. Can we prove there is no wall?
DS> Can the lunatic prove there is? No. It's a matter of perception.
DS> All laws of science, as WE percieve them, may say that the wall
DS> is not there. That does not prove that there is no wall, nor does
DS> it prove that there is.
I think this is where Hector invites you to jump off a tall building
and "perceive" all you want that the ground isn't there. Such a pretty
little land of make-believe, but then - SPLAT!
... Nice argument; too bad it was killed by those vicious facts.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: If it's funny...
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:34:34
--------
EID:990c 1b898440
On (07 Dec 93) Dan Sereduick wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> Indeed - that's why we're here laughing at religion, instead. :-)
DS> I was like that for a time...
And then you completely lost your sense of humor.
DS> But I have other beliefs that don't point to a "force"-less world.
Well, force equals mass times acceleration (at least in the newtonian
approximation). Would you like the relativistic formula, too? :-)
... "I believe it and that is all that matters." - Steve Bedard, 9/4/93
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:37:06
--------
EID:a93f 1b8984a0
On (07 Dec 93) Dan Sereduick wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> Like your self-righteous tirade telling people to lay off?
DS> My statements were not at all self-righteous.
But everyone else's statements are. Uh-huh. I see.
DS> There's nothing wrong with asking someone to give evidence.
How generous of you to finally permit that without complaint!
DS> But verbally crucifying them on the spot is a totally different
DS> matter.
She's a big girl; she can take care of herself. If not - tough shit.
DS> Remember, atheists, pagans, and other "non-Judeo-Christian"
DS> religions were persecuted for a long time by people just as Hector,
DS> who felt it neccessary to badger someone like the gestapo rather
DS> than ask them and DISCUSS their believed occurences.
He asked for evidence. Other than that, what is there to discuss other
than people's religious delusions?
Furthermore, if those you mention were "persecuted" just as Hector
"persecutes" by asking them to either:
1. Provide evidence for their claims,
2. Restate as personal opinion, or
3. Be regarded as fundy morons,
then the world would never have suffered from religious wars, pogroms,
crusades, inquisitions, and all the other disgusting violence.
What you call his "verbal crucifiction" is harmless, except perhaps to
the pride of the fundy who can't take the heat in HolySmoke's kitchen.
Religion does not deserve automatic respect just because someone really
does believe in such nonsense. As a mental parasite subsisting on the
lives of others, it deserves rather to be exposed for what it is.
If the truth hurts, why do you rage against those who speak it? Turn
your ire towards the real culprits in causing such emotional distress:
those who stultify innocent children with the notion that the truth
is too hard to bear, that fairy tales should be believed instead.
... "This meat is hard to chew," he beefed jerkily.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Make up your mind
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:40:47
--------
EID:e106 1b898500
On (07 Dec 93) Dan Sereduick wrote to Fredric Rice...
FR> He made a public comment in a public forum.
DS> Yes, he made a comment...one on which he had no basis to make.
Reversing yourself so quickly? You just said it's OK to ask for evidence.
DS> We mock what we don't understand.
We laugh at the ridiculous, understanding it far too well, and that is
what infuriates the religionists the most, because they _demand_ that
superstition be granted automatic respect without first earning it.
Why do you think that religious claims should be granted this special
privilege above all other claims, Dan?
FR> Are you new to echo mail?
DS> No, I'm new to people being able to publicly discredit someone's
DS> beliefs.
So you've never seen nonsense debunked before. Live and learn.
DS> People should discuss religion, not bash one another's religion.
If asking for evidence is bashing someone's religion, that's too bad.
... This is not Burger King. You do not get it YOUR way.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Amazing Grace that is and ain't
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:43:21
--------
EID:fb05 1b898560
On (07 Dec 93) Jesse C. Jones wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> Do you mean to say that there is a call for me from your god
RC> Yahweh that I am not responsive to, or do you mean to say
RC> that Yahweh is not calling me?
JCJ> The answer, IMO, is 'yes' to both.
RC> So you are saying that there IS a call from a god that is NOT
RC> calling?
Hey! Ciya is not calling you, so why don't you respond to her call?
... "Drop the guy with the devil ears." - NBC, June, 1965.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: RC query 1
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:48:22
--------
EID:2ee7 1b898600
Yes, it's the same question as before, rephrased in the hope that you
might better understand what I'm asking (if that's a problem).
Do you (or do you not) have evidence that your god Yahweh
exists any more independently of the human imagination
than does my goddaughter's creation and friend, Ciya?
To briefly recap your earlier responses:
1. Yahweh doesn't need evidence.
2. It is blasphemous to ask such a thing.
3. The question makes no sense.
Please answer it or let me know what your problem is with it this time.
You also had another response:
4. "Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning."
It seems to reflect the same sentiment as response number 2, and I am
sorry that your religious sensibilities are offended, but that is really
your problem and not mine.
If you are able to overcome this problem of crying "blasphemy" instead of
answering the question, our discussions will have a chance. Otherwise,
why should I bother with your questions if you refuse to reciprocate?
... You are cordially invited to answer the question.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Joy and thankfulness
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:55:42
--------
EID:6c03 1b8986e0
On (07 Dec 93) Jesse C. Jones wrote to Steve Quarrella...
JCJ> People can passively "be" happy, but what do we do with joy? We
JCJ> dance, we sing, we shout!
But certainly you would never claim that atheists do not experience
joy, would you, Jesse?
JCJ> And "thankfulness" is not just about the special things we receive.
JCJ> It is a recognition that _everything_ we receive is special!
Child abuse is special? You don't really mean "everything," do you?
I understand the intent behind your ill-chosen words, however. It is
very true that some of the greatest things I am thankful for are the
things that I take most for granted. It helps to remember this often.
JCJ> And it is never obscured by the deceit of thinking the gift
JCJ> is deserved!
So who said it was? Really, now - all this seems to be going nowhere.
JCJ> Had any lately?
Such snide remarks might make you indistinguishable from many of those
you term "heathens" here, to the newcomer who doesn't already know
you are a liberal fundy.
... A difference that makes no difference....is no difference.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Emptiness
Date: 09 Dec 93 16:57:51
--------
EID:6e67 1b898720
On (07 Dec 93) Jesse C. Jones wrote to Steve Quarrella...
SQ> The most important was this bit about "emptiness". Please demonstrate
SQ> for the court how we're all "empty", and of course, please present us
SQ> with the evidence upon which you base this outrageous claim.
JCJ> Well, your post, I think, is pretty compelling evidence!
Only evidence that Steve was rather disgusted by your arrogant claims.
JCJ> You atheists are marching around bravely proclaiming, we don't
JCJ> need nothin' or nobody!
Are you purposely lying, or just seeing things that aren't there again?
No one needs ghostly gods, but I distinctly recall explaining to you
how we all _do_ need each other. Did you forget? I have the original.
JCJ> We people of faith recognize our needs. Who is it that is
JCJ> being unrealistic?
Who is it that is lying through his fingertips, or else extremely
misinformed about the reality of atheists recognizing their needs?
JCJ> Rev. William Sloane Coffin answered a critic who called religion
JCJ> a "crutch" -- "so what makes you think you don't limp?"
Some people recovering from the disease of religion do still limp a
little. But they are slowly healing. Would you break their legs?
... Belief without evidence is no more than self delusion.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: EVERYONE SHUT UP!
Date: 09 Dec 93 17:00:59
--------
EID:c139 1b898800
On (08 Dec 93) Dan Sereduick wrote to Robert Curry...
DS> Questions are fine.
So long as they are phrased according to your Politically and
Religiously Correct guidelines, eh? :-)
RC> I respect their right to have them _and_ I challenge them.
DS> As long as you don't openly state that their beliefs are "bullshit"
Sometimes they _are_ bullshit. What then?
DS> (ahem, Hector),
Attempting to censor Hector is pointless. Hell is not freezing over.
DS> then there's nothing wrong with questioning their beliefs.
DS> As long as you do it objectively.
Actually, when the religionist is objective, then so are my responses.
But I reserve the right to return any and all flames, and I reserve
the right to call "bullshit" by any other name - including the ever
so popular "Goat droppings" - and including the original.
If it is _not_ bullshit, then you are welcome to defend it, but all
you are whining about is that someone dares to call it like it is.
... Sacrilege: Anything damaging to things sacred, especially truth.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: You laughed... {sob!}
Date: 09 Dec 93 17:02:41
--------
EID:a6d5 1b898840
On (08 Dec 93) Dan Sereduick wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> And laughing some more. Is it his fault that she's a fuckin' hoot?
DS> No, it's his fault that he's completely intolerant of anyone who
DS> believes differently.
He won't tolerate anyone who _doesn't_ think her bullshit is funny?
Where do you come up with such a notion, Dan? Hector didn't insist
that you laugh, too.
He did tell you essentially to fuck off when you demanded that others
_not_ laugh, though.
If all you have to say is how terrible it is that others not express
themselves according to your Politically and Religiously Correct manner,
then you are only wasting your time, moron.
DS> (by the way, I think it's a "fuckin' hoot" that you are so stuck
DS> on your own beliefs that everything else is wrong...
You will note that I am not the one whining about others calling the
bovine excrement by its common name.
DS> Sounds like someone isn't searching for truth, just something
DS> to base an attack on.)
So quit attacking Hector. Deal with the issues instead of the language.
... To err is human. To blame someone else is politics.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Logic And Evidence 2/2
Date: 09 Dec 93 17:03:19
--------
EID:df64 1b898860
On (07 Dec 93) John Musselwhite wrote to Fredric Rice...
JM> Being a ULC minister here really gives me few of the privileges
JM> you get in the US.
I am unfamiliar with such privileges.
Would you be able to ennumerate some of them?
Anyone?
... Press for the interactive I.Q. test.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Kitty-Kat
Sub: Fundie news
Date: 09 Dec 93 17:04:05
--------
EID:850d 1b898880
On (06 Dec 93) Kitty-Kat wrote to David Rice...
DR> "The lord himself told us that the garage must close" said Heap,
DR> who immediately wrote to BMW: "Keep this letter, because when
DR> you're standing in the dole queue lookign for another job, it will
DR> help you to realise exactly how much God is in charge of everything."
K> If this wasn't so hilariously funny, it would be rather terrifying.
K> Could you imagine living in close quarters with these people.
K> Good grief!!!
I don't have to imagine it; I live in Florida.
... If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless.
--- PPoint 1.68
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From: Robert Curry
To: Kitty-Kat
Sub: discussion
Date: 09 Dec 93 17:05:00
--------
EID:6309 1b8988a0
On (06 Dec 93) Kitty-Kat wrote to Stewart Harris...
K> I've been lurking on this echo and not sure what to make of it.
K> Seems to be a lot of negativism and attacking going on.
Don't forget the truly hideous puns. Those are the worst.
K> Whatever happened to sane peaceful discussion where we give one
K> another permission to disagree without attacking his/her point
K> of view.
It's possible, in the case of sane peaceful subjects. :-) Is there
anything in particular that you'd like to discuss?
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: All
Sub: Have fun with this one!
Date: 09 Dec 93 17:41:22
--------
EID:ad82 1b898d20
---------------------------------------------
Forwarded here by Robert Curry (1:3603/140.4)
---------------------------------------------
Area: OPEN_BIBLE
Date: 07 Dec 93 19:32:11 Public
From: Jeff Shirton
To: All
Subject: Candy Cane -> Jesus
---------------------------------------------
Whenever you see a candy cane
Think of Yeshua.
The shape is a shepherd's staff.
Think of Yeshua
The Good Shepherd.
In John 10:11 Yeshua said,
"I am the Good Shepherd"
Look at the colors
and think of Yeshua.
White speaks of his purity, the
Red of His blood He shed on the
Cross.
The stripes remind us of
Isaiah 53 which says,
"With His stripes we are healed."
Smell the mint and think of hyssop -
a plant which is of the mint family,
known for its healing qualities.
Verse 7 of Psalm 51 reads,
"Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean.
Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow."
Share a candy cane this Christmas
and share the message of Messiah.
[Author unknown]
Peace,
Jeff
* SLMR 2.1a * The Bible: God's love letter to mankind!
-+- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
+ Origin: CRS Online, Toronto, Ontario (1:229/15)
--- PPoint 1.68
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--------
From: Robert Curry
To: Historians
Sub: Better than Gibbons, even!
Date: 09 Dec 93 17:43:15
--------
EID:9844 1b898d60
---------------------------------------------
Forwarded here by Robert Curry (1:3603/140.4)
---------------------------------------------
Area: OPEN_BIBLE
Date: 07 Dec 93 13:50:16 Public
From: Rick Carroll
To: Robert Curry
Subject: Mythical Jesus
---------------------------------------------
> RC> Since there are _contemporary_ historical accounts of Washington,
> RC> then there is a substantial amount of evidence that his legendary
> RC> status was based on the actions and life of a very real man.
> RC> But can you provide a single contemporary historian's account of
> RC> a Jesus?
Yes.
Luke is considered a historian of the finest rank. He had quite a bit to
say
about Jesus.
-- Rick Carroll
-+- GEcho 1.00
+ Origin: Everything Seen Came From What is Unseen. (1:282/56.3)
---------------------------------------------
Comments, anyone? What, for instance, qualifies a person as "a historian
of the finest rank?" (No Christian bias there - no siree! ROFL!)
And what evidence is there that Luke wrote the third gospel, anyway?
--- PPoint 1.68
* Origin: And hast thou slain the Jabberwock? (1:3603/140.4)
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--------
From: Starwyn
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: testing 1,2,3
Date: 09 Dec 93 18:13:00
--------
EID:651b 1b8991a0
AA>Grrrr...can't wait for them to show up...we're training our cats
AA>to jump for the throat at the sound of the words "May I share
AA>something with you?"
Hehehehe...I don't mind if they knock, but I DO want them to go away when
I ¨t
ell them to. Just as I would if they were salesman. (Which they are, IMHO)
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: My Inner Child Is A Sick Little Bitch! (1:104/515)
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PATH: 104/515 512 1 270/101 209/209 102/2 851
--------
From: Starwyn
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: testing 1,2,3
Date: 09 Dec 93 18:31:00
--------
EID:5a90 1b8993e0
DC> St> John says "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the
DC>spirits,
DC>I kinda liked this passage. It says to test that the
DC>spirits are from god. That, to me, implies that if
DC>god happens to visit you, you have to make sure that
DC>he is who he says he is. Hence, you must prove god
DC>exists.
Thats correct! It could possibly be Martin Goldberg in disguise and who
¨would
ever know it if they didn't test him?
DC>Further, it contraticts other verses of the bible that
DC>you are not supposed to test god. Yet, John seems to
DC>require that you stay safe from potentially deceptive
DC>sprits. Hmmmm....
Hell, you're not even safe at home with all the JW's at the door...;)
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: My Inner Child Is A Sick Little Bitch! (1:104/515)
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--------
From: Starwyn
To: Jay Noyes
Sub: Blood, yum yum!!
Date: 09 Dec 93 18:32:00
--------
EID:f566 1b899400
JN>ST>SM>wounding, either; in fact, she rather *enjoyed* the
JN>ST>SM>experience..........Didn't bother *me* all that much,
JN>either!!
JN> Oh, heave.
JN> Hmm, are you sure it was blood.
This message was TO me, not FROM me...I didn't write it, I recieved it from
¨a
male that posts here.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: My Inner Child Is A Sick Little Bitch! (1:104/515)
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--------
From: Starwyn
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Christmas Article
Date: 09 Dec 93 18:36:00
--------
EID:914b 1b899480
MG>MEbbe.....what will you be wearing?
Hmm..haven't decided if I'll wear the cat on my head or the *beaver* down
¨low
er.
MG>Tell you what, I'm gonna call your system. Upload some gifs for
MG>you. Weill leave you the old work address there.
Okay, still waiting (tap, tap, tap)...
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: My Inner Child Is A Sick Little Bitch! (1:104/515)
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--------
From: Brian Shreve
To: Matt Coleman
Sub: kill niggers now
Date: 09 Dec 93 12:51:53
--------
EID:1705 1b896660
MSGID: 1:106/113 385db4e2
MC> I hate niggers. Kill em all now!
Well sheesh, we can start with you! You sound like a typical nigger.
Heck, why am I wasting my time with this, the poor guy probably
doesn't even know the definition of a nigger!
...Brian
--- msgedsq 2.1a
* Origin: Brian's Desk --- 713-451-6066 (1:106/113)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Flaming atheists
Date: 07 Dec 93 12:46:06
--------
EID:cb15 1b8765c0
Jesse C. Jones, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig
:
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Don Martin <=-
JCJ> I did study the Roman Empire in a freshman Western Civilization
JCJ> class;
ML> Would it be cruel here to wonder if Jesse received an "A+" for
ML> this magnum opus?
JCJ> What is your point, Marty?
The point is an inside joke between Comrade Martin, Doktor
Goldberg and myelef remembering those bright, heady days of
Flame and a certain fundamentlist and his "A+" Master's
Thesis.
JCJ> I Aced the course, and went on to get
JCJ> an honors major in history, graduating Magna Cum Laude and Phi Beta
JCJ> Kappa.
Do you still have the key? They fit the later model Coke
machines very nicely.
... Do not learn the tricks of the trade - learn the trade.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Lady Timberwolf
Sub: Howling along with the great unwashed.
Date: 08 Dec 93 15:23:12
--------
EID:25ca 1b887ae0
Someone kicked over a large moss covered rock, and the following
spewed forth from : Lady Timberwolf to Marty Leipzig:
-=>Marty Leipzig chatted to Ron Stringfellow on 12-02-93 11:17 <=-
ML> Hey, Rectum-Faced Guppy. Yeah, you.
LT>
LT> I know you ain't talking to me
Who explained that simple fact to you?
LT>.....but I sure is hell gonna talk to
LT> you.
Wonderful. I can hardly wait. Let me get my "Gibberish-English"
dictionary out so I can translate your blatherings.
LT>
ML> Look, Ronzo, I've already posted (now twice, you
ML> pernicious
ML> moron) the methods and procedures of radiometric dating.
LT>
LT> Well if it take a third posting then do it, if they wanna learn
LT> let them.
LT>
If Ronzo couldn't understand the message the first two times,
what makes you think (if that is indeed possible) that anything
short of electroshock therapy would help?
LT>
RS> sigh....back to the smoke and mirrors...what else is required
ML>
ML> More. Much more. Get a fucking book and read it rather than
ML> spending months (reel, reel, reel...Hey! Look at him tailwalk!)
ML> begging your betters to do it for your pathetic little self.
LT>
LT> YOUR FIRED!
You were never even considered for the position.
LT> ... I was born stupid and have been losing ground ever since.
LT>
LT> Agreed!
Fascinating. Just how many days did it take you and your
singular synapse to come up with the idea of editing a tagline
so it would appear to be insulting?
Another proud PS 131 dropout.
LT> ... Yes, you're very smart.
You lack the capacity to understand the magnitude.
LT> Shut up.
Sound advice. Might I hasten to add "Get Stuffed", in the most
HolySmokian manner possible.
Watch out, there's a full moon tonight and the county dogcatcher
is one shy of his quota.
... You never play the fool - it's always genuine, never an act.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Givin' Ron just enough rope...
Date: 09 Dec 93 09:46:10
--------
EID:ec0a 1b894dc0
Ron Stringfellow, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty
Leipz
ig:
Hey, Meathead. Yeah, you.
ML> Why don't you quit your sniveling and mewling? Why not go
ML> out and
ML> find that information for yourself, rather than this
ML> constant infantine
ML> begging and pleading for your betters to educate you.
RS> I already know what I am seeking, I'm just waiting for you.
Why are you still waiting when everything and everyone here pass
you by? Strange how art imitates what for you passes for a life.
RS> Obviously you don't know, or just aren't gutsy enough to post it.
RS> Which, btw, doesn't surprise me. I've told this echo for a long time
RS> what you really are.
You lack the capacity to understand. All you ever offer is
lies, misinformation and paranoic ravings. I don't have to tell
anyone hereabouts what you are, your pathetic posts do that
enough for themselves.
ML> RS> Or have you read that far in the book, lad?
ML> I'll "lad" you one, you pernicious whelp. Let's put it
RS> resulting to threats lipscinc???? tsk...tsk... quite unbecoming an
RS> "intellectual". Har!
Your paranoia is full bloom, Ronzo. Only someone who thinks
that they hear voices and that there's a global conspiracy
would ever misconstrue that as a threat.
Ron. This may destroy whatever little ego you have, but I would
never resort to threats, especially to you.
You're not worth the effort.
ML> to your deference Ronzo; at least I have the ability to
ML> utilize books to
ML> increase knowledge. The only use they hold for you is
RS> So you admit that you are getting this information out of the book?
Wrong again, shithead. Leave it to someone of your fizzling
mental caliber to misrepresent what I said. I said that unlike
you, I possess the acumen to glean information from books; not
that I was doing so in this case. The only thing that you could
utilize books for is to line the cage where you pass your time.
RS> Well, keep reading and you'll get to the meat of what I am
RS> asking......
We all know where the meat resides, Ronzo. It's impacted between
your ears.
... Born-Again-Radical-Ridiculous-Fundamentalists....B.A.R.R.F's
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Marty Leipzig's generous but doomed attempt to inform you
Date: 09 Dec 93 09:48:47
--------
EID:8c2c 1b894e00
Ron Stringfellow, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty
Leipz
ig:
Hey, drooling asswipe. Yeah, you there, cowering in the corner.
ML> That's Dr. Leipzig, to you, you ignorant moron.
RS> On a cold day in hell..You've yet to show that you are a doctor of
RS> anything except cow manure.
Hardly. But your experience and affection for that substance
certainly qualifies you as an expert in its shoveling.
RS> But I guess if doctor it is you wish to be
RS> address then I shall obliged Dr. Lipscinc.
And I shall continue to address you as the drooling moron that
you are.
ML> who has been dragging this out, I am merely playing you [
ML> like a
ML> well hooked fish who's so fucking senseless that he
RS> With every fish there is some point when you reel him in...
Except those I use for cut-bait. Right, Chum?
RS> We
RS> are waiting....... and waiting.....
Wrong yet again. You are the only one waiting. Everyone else saw
the post both times I entered it in this forum. Don't confuse
your stupidity and lack of comprehension with anything other
than what it really is.
RS> you must not have anything on the
RS> hook or the fish is bigger then you think.
You are krill in a sea filled with Mysticeatae.
ML> For you, it must be a task of gargantuan proportions.
RS> I'm not the one side-stepping the question....
I'm not side-stepping at all. I find it most humorous to
continue and play you for the consummate fool.
And it's working so well.
ML> You're the one seeing collusion and a global front out to
RS> I'm not the one waiting for the big trap.....
I'm not the one who claims to have one. 'Smatter, Ronzo. Are
they still out to get you?
ML> Unfortunately, you wouldn't know a scientific fact if it
ML> came
ML> up to you and pissed all over your shoes. Come to think of
RS> and that is what you and most the participants would call a
RS> scientific fact as well....
You lack the capacity to discern fact from fantasy. Hearing
voices and claiming to talk to illusory beings certainly
establishes the fact of your delusional fantasies.
RS> everyone else would call it a lot of
RS> pissing and moaning....
That is exactly what we think of each and every one of your
pitiful whinings.
... If you were a car, all your idiot lights would now be lit up.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: James Conwell
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 09 Dec 93 07:33:20
--------
EID:d798 1b893c20
James Conwell, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Fredric
Rice:
FR> another $100.00 United States dollars if you can disprove the
FR> immutable fact of evolution.
JC> You keep using the term "immutable fact of evolution".
JC> Why?
Becasuse that's what it is.
JC> I was taught in school about a "theory of evolution". In fact, I have
JC> never heard anyone use the phrase "immutable fact of evolution" to
JC> explain life on earth.
Then you need to read the literature.
JC> do you have scientific proof of the "immutable fact of evolution" (as
JC> it relates to living organisms on earth) ?
Yep. The fossil record. Proves immutably that life has
progressed from the simple to the complex over the span of
geologic time. Fact.
Next.
... Sometimes the obvious works best!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: ALL HAIL KENOSHA
Date: 09 Dec 93 09:23:49
--------
EID:3426 1b894ae0
Amy Anderson-Coffin, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty
Le
ipzig:
AA> Discussing ALL HAIL KENOSHA with Amy Anderson-Coffin, Marty Leipzig
AA> remarked:
AA> Marty, I love you. You drink Cool Beer! Come to our next Australia
AA> Day party! We're in Milwaukee, just off Brady. (Seriously...we
AA> should! You and the husby would get along REAL GOOD!)
AA>
ML> See above, Re: September.
ML>
ML> As for Foster's try my "South Seas Black and Tan": equal parts
ML> Foster's Lager and Sheaf Stout. Caution: The floor may come up and hit
ML> you in the face after a couple of these.
AA> Peter will go nutzoid over this.
A man of rare and refined tastes, obviously.
AA>
ML> P.S. The bullheads still biting good at the Dam?
AA> I'm afraid to look, as they've doubtless mutated into something
AA> totally unrecognizable by this time...
OH, NO! Do you mean they mutated into FUNDIES?
The horror...
The horror...
... "Here, fundy, fundy, fundy. Nice fundy...***<<>>***"
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Peri Michaud
Sub: Nebraska Man?
Date: 09 Dec 93 09:29:46
--------
EID:8a97 1b894ba0
Peri Michaud, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Fredric Rice:
FR> Oh yes. And it's God Marty L. who has set out his traps and baited
FR> them. I'm just trying to help drive the prey towards the waiting pit
FR> but I think the prey has been alerted to the dangers and will dig
FR> himself a hole to hide in and merely ignore the hunters.
PM>
PM> So, I take it God Marty isn't a merciful God, eh?
LO! I am a wrathful and vengeful God! I do not suffer fools
lightly. Like Ronzo, once they're on the spit, I just keep 'em
revolving and revolving.
PM> "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffian Gods can say
PM> 'Nebraska Man!' at will to old preachers." -Roger, the shrubber
"It is a pestilence upon this land that mindless idiots can
have access to computers and infect message bases with their
deity-filled delusions".
pm> Since ole Ron chooses not to answer (seems a habit with him),
pm> I'll bite (pant-pant).
FR> Let's make sure that Marty is through with SpinRon. I have text files
FR> about the Nebraska Man and, thanks to Marty, about the Piltdown Man.
FR> I would just be spouting in ignorance from the archives. Let's see
if
FR> Marty will post the sad facts.
PM> Do you honestly think God Marty will *ever* be through with Ron?
As long as he persists on being an "Idiot for Christ" and
continue to deny reality; why should I let the little guppy
off the hook?
PM> ... Wreck the malls with cows on Harleys...fa,la,la,la,la
... He is a man without limits...his stupidity knows no bounds.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: Robert Curry
Sub: The square roots of negative 1.
Date: 09 Dec 93 09:52:37
--------
EID:9b6a 1b894e80
Robert Curry, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to Marty Leipzig:
RC> On (07 Dec 93) Marty Leipzig wrote to Robert Curry...
RC> For instance, how does one distinguish (in the context of the
RC> complex field) the two square roots of -1?
ML> i know! i know!
RC>
RC> But are you really positive?
Logically positive.
RC>
RC> Since the complex field is not ordered,
Yes it is. I ordered one from Sharper Image not a fortnight
ago.
RC> neither root is positive
RC> or negative.
Ah. It's been fixed...
RC> Each is just an additive inverse for the other.
Not if you look at the flip-side of the equation.
... A mathematician named Rose could do calculus on her toes!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 09 Dec 93 17:51:44
--------
EID:9361 1b898e60
-=> Quoting Stewart Harris to STEVE BEDARD <=-
SH> Abstinence and/or absolute monogamy is no longer a criterion of
SH> safety. Passing between two healthy children is the sign that natural
SH> selection is working exactly as it is supposed to work.
Perhaps you'd care to give us a cite for this case you're so hot to trot
about? All you've said is "AIDS has been passed between two healthy children"
-- which is meaningless unless you provide some sort of substantiation.
If
you truly want to be believed, why do you refuse to provide any proof?
Could
it be that someone might recognize a scam you're pulling?
... I don't envy folks unencumbered by ethics, like Stewart.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Patrick Humphrey
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: The Xtian fraud called Piltdown Man
Date: 09 Dec 93 18:28:51
--------
EID:1e9e 1b899380
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Ron Stringfellow <=-
SQ> Hwaet, Ron!
SQ> 6 Dec 93, dixit Ron Stringfellow ad Amy Anderson-Coffin:
RS> Southwestern Assemblies of God at Waxahachie, Tx. I am
RS> still currently enrolled there .
SQ> So where ELSE are you an honour student? Isn't the above a bit
SQ> recursive?
What I want to know is: if he's going to school in Waxahachie, why is he
posting from a board in San Antonio? Last time I looked, San 'Tone was
*still* 400 klicks down I-35 from Waxahachie -- and intra-state LD is anything
*but* cheap in Texas. Or is this Southwestern Asses of God thing one of
those
mail-order schools? At least I live in the same area code as my work (though
with a split of 713 coming by mid-1995, that may not be the case much
longer)...
... Ignorance can be cured. RevRon can't.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
* Origin: A Little Corner in Time BBS (1:106/113.0)
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--------
From: Starwyn
To: All
Sub: pope
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:53:00
--------
EID:295c 1b899ea0
When the pope was travelling to Denver, he was chauffeured across
country. While cruising through Kansas, the Pope became bored with the
¨never
changing scenery and unswerving road. He rang up the driver in the ¨front
of
the limo and asked to be allowed to switch places so that *he* ¨could drive
f
or a time. The chauffeur objected, was overruled and the two ¨switched places.
Some miles down the road, the Pope, who had lost track of the
pressure he was exerting on the gas pedal, was pulled over by a speed cop.
¨Th
e cop began his spiel as the Pope rolled down the driver's side window.
¨The c
op was shocked, apologized profusely and sent the limo on its way with ¨the
Po
pe's blessing.
Later that day the copy was explaining to his sergeant why he
hadn't ticketed the limo that was doing 90 on the interstate. He said
that
the rear seat occupant was simply too powerful and he couldn't. The
conversation went like this:
Cop: "Big man - had to let him go."
Sergeant: "The Governor?"
Cop: "Nope. Bigger."
Sergeant: "Vice-President?"
Cop: "Nope. Bigger."
Sergeant: "President!!!!!!?"
Cop: "Nope. Bigger."
Sergeant: "What? Who can be bigger than the Prez?"
Cop: "I dunno. I didn't have the nerve to ask or look, but the
Pope was his chauffeur."
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
* Origin: My Inner Child Is A Sick Little Bitch! (1:104/515)
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--------
From: Lonnie Coleman
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Maybe you can tell me
Date: 09 Dec 93 11:44:00
--------
EID:1081 0a105150
MSGID: 1:129/161 ac125b89
Why is it "they" are so willing to disprove that God exists? Even the simples
t of creatures have to obey physical laws without questioning. Yet we are
expe
cted to "prove" what we have faith in... what is faith in their eyes? I'm
jus
t curious... it took me quite a while to quit trying to figure it all out.
He
y, who said a Christian can't be logical or a scientist... After all knowledge
and wisdom come from the Lord. Just wondering how you are tolerating all
the
crap.
--- TosScan 1.00
* Origin: MindLess One's BBS, Weirton WV, U.S.A. (1:129/161)
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Stephen Vakil
Sub: Fundamentalists of all stripes
Date: 09 Dec 93 11:48:00
--------
EID:10ce aa0ae1e0
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ab8b4ad5
REPLY: 1:11/156.0 2d012c26
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> DC> The christian god is also given the attributes of free-will and
> DC> omniscience. This is simply a contradiction. For
> DC> example, he knows he will perform act X at some point
> DC> in the future. If he does not perform act X then he
> DC> was not omniscient. If he has to perform act X then
> DC> he does not have free will.
> Well, it depends on your definition of free
> will I guess.
> If he sees billions of possible futures, and
> at any instant
> chooses between each, it's still free well.
> It seems like you are assuming time is linear
> and without
> choices. However, like the Kwisatz Haderach
> in "Dune," an
> omniscient being would have to be able to see
> _all_ possible
> futures. Knowing the future can change it...
Then the being would not be omniscient, as It would not know which of the
poss
ible futures would become actual.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: True colors
Date: 09 Dec 93 11:55:01
--------
EID:10ce aa0ae1e1
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ab8b4ad7
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d043f6d
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> Problem is, as true moral relativism stands,
> nothing is ever right or wrong. Assuming my
> understanding is correct, I don't think that's what
> Derek meant.
Regardless of what Derek meant, that is not correct. Relativism says that
noth
ing is right or wrong from an absolute standard, because no absolute standard
exists. Virtually everything is right or wrong from somebody's standard.
Any
sane relativism further admits that it is perfectly rational to act to bring
a
bout what's right under your own standard, and oppose what's wrong under
your
own standard.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: They just happened! (1:206/2720)
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Emptiness
Date: 09 Dec 93 12:04:02
--------
EID:10ce aa0ae1e2
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ab8b4ad8
REPLY: 1:135/71 ab91fe9d
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> You atheists are marching around bravely
> proclaiming, we don't need
> nothin' or nobody! We people of faith recognize our
> needs. Who is it that is
> being unrealistic?
I've never proclaimed that I don't need anything or anybody, to clean up
the g
rammar a tad. Certainly I need friends, good food, good music, good books,
an
d so forth. Not necessarily in that order, though my friends definitely
come
first. What I don't need is any imaginary friends; my real friends are much
mo
re interesting company. I also don't need any ultimate purpose to my life.
M
y more mundane purposes have the distinct advantage of being in many cases
rea
lizable, and are in any event more congenial to me, being as they are my
own.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Modern history and modern historians
Date: 09 Dec 93 12:07:03
--------
EID:10ce aa0ae1e3
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ab8b4ad9
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 05669e00
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> Master's Level. Whatever that means.
Around here, they give you a Master's degree if you get kicked out of the
PhD
program. That's the only way to get one. That's not the way everyone handles
their Master's degrees, of course, but it is not uncommon either.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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--------
From: Karl Lembke
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 09 Dec 93 18:22:14
--------
EID:d152 1b8992c0
MSGID: 1:102/943.0 2d07dd56
DC>That's not a valid comparison. The only true hypocritical opponents
of
>wiccan animal sacrifices are those who kill animals of
>comparable self-awareness for a purpose of unproven
>validity. For example, someone who kills a rabbit because
>they believe it will cure their blindness.
I suppose. Or even someone who kills a comparable animal
because he or she doesn't like it.
By the way, I've seen more Christian animal sacrifices
than I've seen Wiccan ones. In point of fact, I haven't
seen any Wiccan ones at all. Where are these Wiccan
animal sacrifices supposed to be taking place?
* SLMR 2.1a * I think, therefore I am confused.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Mysteria * Be ye mystic * 818-353-8891 (1:102/943)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 835 850 851 890 943
PATH: 102/943 851
--------
From: Karl Lembke
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:24:16
--------
EID:26af 1b899b00
MSGID: 1:102/943.0 2d07ebe0
> A> than attracting. That's because Wicca certainly isn't for everyone.
DC>Consider this:
DC>Wicca is exclusively either a truth or a lie (i.e. the forces of the
world
>can't be both as wiccans say and what not-wiccans say).
I think this would be an example of a false dichotomy. On a
much more mundane level, I can say that, say, a Prince Valient
haircut is not for everybody.
If someone were to assert that a hair style must either be good
or bad, we would recognize that as absurd. Something that is
suited to one temperment may be all wrong for another.
>However, you think that wicca is not for everyone. So you
>think that the truth is not for everyone. Either that, or
>you feel that wicca is not the only truth but instead
>accomodates other truths. For example, ACTUAL healing (not
>merely the belief) can be achieved by majik, or Jesus, or
>whatever you personally like.
Wicca is not the only truth.
My favorite analogy is that of a mountain top, with the peak
representing God (or Goddess, or whatever supreme deity you
choose). There are many paths that lead to the summit, but
only one summit.
DC> A> Nothing at all. I have no problems with any Christian, Jew, or Muslim
(o
> A> any other religion) sharing their personal experiences with Deity as
th
ey
> A> see him/her/it. What I object to is their trying to force that concept
o
> A> Deity down my throat. If it were just a sharing rather than a conversi
on
DC>And I guess you won't oppose those who would challenge your
>beliefs as you "share" them. After all, that is what this
>echo is for.
DC> A> Not true. Just yesterday, I got accosted for saying something that
I h
ad
> A> personally experienced. Of course, it hadn't occured
> A> to the person that it
> A> wasn't something that was meant to be shared... My personal experience
s
DC>Then why did you post it public?
DC> A> Sure... but for some people it works . I work
> A> magick, and I've found
> A> it works... By trial and error, I've found various
> A> things that work for me.
DC>So the performing of magick is something that could be tested then?
DC>Derek W. Clayton
DC>---
> * Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
* SLMR 2.1a * SYSTEM ERROR: Place sacrifice on keyboard to continue...
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Mysteria * Be ye mystic * 818-353-8891 (1:102/943)
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--------
From: Karl Lembke
To: James Conwell
Sub: Re: Why do we care?!?
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:43:22
--------
EID:c679 1b89ad60
MSGID: 1:102/943.0 2d080c7a
JC>SH> Just as a matter of curiosity, is there anything in the dogma of
>SH> evolutionary theory which allows for any physical process to
>SH> dramatically improve overnight! That's realtime to which I am
Well, evolutionary theory does allow for things to change very
quickly. Mainly because it has to be compatible with known
science, and there are lots of cases where things will improve
drastically (at least from our point of view, which is the only
way "improvement" can meaningfully be defined) overnight.
>SH> referring. (I don't end sentences with prepositions, but that's on
>SH> another level of intelligence, one that appears to be unknown within
>SH> the
>SH> confines of the evolutionary theorists herein assembled.)
I commented on that to my 10th grade English teacher, and he
expounded at great length about how the word at the end of
such a sentence was no longer a preposition, but a specialized
adverb which merely happened to be spelled exactly the same
way as the preposition. (Not an exact quote, and my memory
does not permit me to burden you with the exact technical
details.)
JC>The only way that I am aware of for any physical process to drastically
>improve overnight is if some intelligent force takes action
>to improve it.
So if a fever breaks overnight and the patient is much better
in the morning, it must be the result of intelligent action?
JC>The only possible exception to this that I can think of
>would be the formation of crystals. They seem to "evolve"
>from a state of simplicity to one of well-ordered
>complexity. I know they are not alive but the simple fact
>that they exist seems astounding to me. What is your
>thinking on this?
Crystals form because the ordered arrangement of molecules
they represent has a lower energy state than is possessed
by those same molecules dissolved in some solvent. The
crystalline array has the lowest energy of the possible
arrangements.
However, the third law of Thermo intervenes, so there is no
such thing as a perfect (free from defects) crystal.
* SLMR 2.1a * 8 bits = 1 byte; 4 bits = 1 nibble; 8 nibbles = 1 hickey?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Mysteria * Be ye mystic * 818-353-8891 (1:102/943)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 835 850 851 890 943
PATH: 102/943 851
--------
From: Karl Lembke
To: David Rice
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:47:24
--------
EID:67d4 1b89ade0
MSGID: 1:102/943.0 2d080d6c
DR>What really annoys me to no end are the people who buy their meat
>in bright, clean, plastic containers in stores under neon light,
>arranged neatly in long rows, painlessly and anaseptically, with
>little or no regard for the life they are consuming. Chances are
>extremely good that the animal flesh they purchase in the stores
>died a screaming, terrified, inhumane death, far greater than the
>deaths of animals sacrificed in religious rituals. And yet people
The chances become rather worse in the case of kosher meat. Halacha
(Jewish law) requires that the animal be killed as painlessly as
possible (for the animal) or the meat isn't kosher.
>who buy their flesh without discomfort or thought about the life
>that was ended, will often denounce the Santerias (as an example)
>as "evil" or "inhuman."
* SLMR 2.1a * Do What Thou Will: Not just a good idea.....
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Mysteria * Be ye mystic * 818-353-8891 (1:102/943)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 835 850 851 890 943
PATH: 102/943 851
--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:47:56
--------
EID:16a3 1b889de0
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d063272
REPLY: 1:2617/117 aa954d88
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Dan:
In a msg of , Dan Sereduick writes to Derek Clayton:
>> A dangerous statement. What about beliefs that promote hatred either
>> directly or indirectly? Should these remain unchallenged?
DS> Yes, they should, until they infringe on others' rights.
Wouldn't that occur by definition? I would certainly consider the belief
and
promotion that I should be killed a definite infringement upon my rights.
I am not suggesting censorship of such ideas but I believe they should be
chal
lenged.
DS> I didn't mean to believe what they believe, or to even take it
DS> seriously.... Just to respect that these people have their beliefs.
And
DS> are responsible for their actions as a result...
Don't confuse respect for the right of belief with respect for the belief
itse
lf. I will never "force" my ideas upon someone else, but if I doubt the
truth
of a belief I will certainly say so.
As is MY right.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 20:04:30
--------
EID:8b2c 1b88a080
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d063664
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a17378
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Ariadne:
In a msg of , Ariadne writes to Derek Clayton:
A> No, I said that Satanists had been known (by me, at least) to use a chicke
n
A> in ritual, in paradoy or copying the Santaria ritual. I said that Wiccans
A> in the past had been known to engage in sacrifice... I have no idea if
it
A> included a chicken or not... ;)
Maybe the wiccans of old were not true wiccans.
A> Finish reading the messages. If you'd like an explanation of the form
of
A> what I believe, then continue to read. If you just want to bitch, continu
e
A> blithely along.
A> Yes, but at least we Wiccans don't go around trying to shove it down
A> everyone else's throats, like the Christians and athiests...
I'm merely trying to give you the spiritual heimlich maneuver...seems you
have
the wiccan belief shoved down your throat.
Atheists do not have a belief to force upon you. Show me an example of
an ath
eist who has tried to force you to renounce your belief and become an atheist.
And here's a hint...a challenge of your belief does not constitute a forcing
of belief (or lack thereof).
IF you do not want us to challenge your beliefs then don't post them. Simple.
Derek W. Clayton
---
* Origin: Killing in the name of... (FidoNet 1:221/279.8)
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: Ariadne
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 08 Dec 93 22:02:56
--------
EID:a4f9 1b88b040
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d064ff6
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a177a2
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day Ariadne:
In a msg of , Ariadne writes to Martin Goldberg:
A> before they're *allowed* to be sold for eating. Third, because I do
try
A> not to take other sentient life to replenish my own. They're personal
Now you must really be getting dizzy. I thought you did not feel that sentien
ce (consciounsess, soul, etc) existed in animals. You said, and I quote
:
"Life can be found in many forms. But sentience and intellect cannot."
"All I'm saying is that our consciousness, or soul, or intellect....All
these
things humans have, and yet animals don't."
Which for you : the truth, the fundy shuffle, or the chirping of crickets?
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: James Conwell
Sub: POLITE
Date: 08 Dec 93 22:31:58
--------
EID:0ccf 1b88b3e0
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d065602
REPLY: 1:106/7512 0c8230d0
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day James:
In a msg of , James Conwell writes to Fredric
Rice:
JC> If all the original humans were born atheists and noone was around to
JC> indoctrinate them into being theists then how could they become theists?
We know of the concept of Santa Claus. If we weren't born with the concept
of
Santa Claus, then there there would be no first person who knew the concept
o
f Santa Claus without being told. Therefore, no person could ever know
the co
ncept of Santa Claus. However, some do know the concept of Santa Claus.
There
fore we must be born with the concept of Santa Claus.
In this light, I'm sure you realize why your argument is absurd.
Derek W. Clayton
---
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--------
From: Derek Clayton
To: David Rice
Sub: Quotes
Date: 08 Dec 93 22:32:56
--------
EID:e8e2 1b88b400
MSGID: 1:221/279.8 2d06562f
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512dc
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/3.
G'day David:
In a msg of , David Rice writes to All:
DR> "Freedom of speech means that you shall not do something to people
DR> either for the views they have, or the views they express, or the
DR> words they speak or write." -- Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black (1963)
DR> "If all mankind, minus one, were of one opinion, and only
DR> one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be
DR> no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he
DR> had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
DR> -- John Stuart Mill, _On Liberty_ (1859)
I agree. No person should be told what to believe, or else. However, it
is f
air to ask why they believe, and make it known that you have a contradictory
o
pinion. It is also fair to conclude that the person is wrong. It is also
fai
r to judge a person based on their beliefs (you say you're Napoleon, I say
you
're crazy).
Derek W. Clayton
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Jay Noyes
Sub: True colors
Date: 09 Dec 93 09:02:34
--------
EID:137f 1b894840
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d06ea6e
REPLY: 1:11/156.0 2d028632
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Jay:
In a msg of , Jay Noyes writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
TAW>> The problem with moral relativism is that ultimately
TAW>> nothing is wrong/right, and it would seem that actions
JN> Give the (wo)man (I'm sorry, I can't tell from the name) a
JN> cigar.
Really? Hmmm...never met a woman named Tyler, but I suppose anything's
p
ossibly (irony of ironies, I'm presently studying Plato's "Cratylus" for
an ex
am, which is Plato's account of naming).
It must be divine coincidence...
JN> You are correct, nothing is inherently good or bad,
JN> but rather our perceptions of an object or event cause us to
JN> associate them with goodness or badness.
The crux of the problem is that you would get very few people willing to
forgo denouncing the slaughter of innocent schoolchildren (particularly
if you
r children were among them), for example, as non-good/non-bad.
---
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Ariadne
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 09 Dec 93 09:08:26
--------
EID:4488 1b894900
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d06eb4b
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2d064ff6
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Ariadne:
In a msg of , Derek Clayton writes to Ariadne:
A>> before they're *allowed* to be sold for eating. Third, because I do
A>> try not to take other sentient life to replenish my own. They're
A>> personal
DC> "Life can be found in many forms. But sentience and intellect cannot."
DC> "All I'm saying is that our consciousness, or soul, or intellect....All
DC> these things humans have, and yet animals don't."
This seems rather contradictory, Ariadne.
---
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: James Conwell
Sub: Re: Some great news items
Date: 09 Dec 93 14:15:15
--------
EID:4a37 1b8971e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 07a37300
REPLY: 1:106/7512 e98c6465
JC>Jesus said no such thing.
Oh? And how do you know what ol' Jess did and didn't say? You his
press agent?
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 14:23:31
--------
EID:1507 1b8972e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 07a56300
REPLY: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bc7
>> "That sounds like bullshit. Please provide some evidence that it's not,
>> or admit you have no evidence and stop claiming it's a fact. Thanks."
DS>But if you had read her -previous- posts, you would know she's
DS>speaking more out of belief than anything.
Have, and you're right: in her previous posts she spoke of belief, and
you'll note I said nothing to her about it. In the post which is in
reference, she spoke of _facts_, and I asked her for evidence.
DS>You are putting her in a position where she cannot realistically
DS>convey to you what her feelings are.
Don't give a hoot about her feelings. She claimed something to be a
fact which I suspect is not. Asked her for evidence and, if she can't
provide it, to stop posting bullshit as fact. She refuses, which would
seem to make her a fundy, don't you agree? :-)
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 14:25:43
--------
EID:e76c 1b897320
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 07a5e700
REPLY: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bc8
>> Fantasy misperceived as reality is still fantasy, not reality.
DS>I ask you to offer proof that this is the case.
Quite simple:
Let's say you use the word "airplane" to mean "washing machine." It's
still a washing machine. Doubt it? Go out and say "airplane" to your
washing machine, then see if it mutates.
Now, let's say you use the word "reality" to mean "fantasy." It's still
fantasy. Doubt it? Provide the evidence.
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Re: EVERYONE SHUT UP!
Date: 09 Dec 93 14:35:00
--------
EID:fef0 1b897460
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 07a81400
REPLY: 1:2617/117 ac0029db
DS>As long as you don't openly state that their beliefs are "bullshit"
DS>(ahem, Hector), then there's nothing wrong with questioning their
DS>beliefs.
Bullshit perfumed is bullshit still.
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: MOSHE SHULMAN
Sub: Re: Problem
Date: 09 Dec 93 14:37:04
--------
EID:e952 1b8974a0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 07a89000
MS>either something exists or it doesn't
How about some evidence for yer godlet's existence, as promised, then?
Either it exists or it doesn't, right? And if it exists, you've got
evidence, right (you did say that you did)? So, produce it already.
MS>Provide facts for your fantasy.
Yes, Moshe, why don't you do that? You _did_ say you would, yet you
haven't. Why is that?
--- Tear a new one
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From: Hector Plasmic
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 14:39:51
--------
EID:b306 1b8974e0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 07a93700
REPLY: 1:2617/117 ac0029d6
>> DS>1. Outrageous is a matter of opinion.
>> Ariadne said:
>> A>I've had some pretty interesting experiences with Goddess...
>> A>physical manifestations and stuff like that .
>> Physical manifestations of godlets is outrageous. Doubt it? Provide
>> the evidence.
DS>Outrageous means unbelievable.
Bullshit:
outrageous adj. Extravagent; immoderate; extreme.
>> DS>2. Requests for evidence? Yes. Attacks on one's credibility? No.
>> Hector said:
>> HP>Evidence, please, or stop flinging the bullshit as fact rather than
>> HP>opinion. Thanks. ^^
>> Want to rephrase now, Dan?
DS>No. Bullshit: ie., a total farce.
Yep. She made an outrageous claim. She was asked for evidence, and
informed that _if_ she had none, what she claimed was bullshit and she
shouldn't fling it about as fact. Note the word "or" above where you
seem to be reading the word "and."
It's clear cut, and many in the echo (including the moderator) have told
you that you're full of crap on this one, Dan. I'd suggest that you
stop defending the guilty; it's Bill Hicks' job, anyway.
--- Tear a new one
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From: James Conwell
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 10 Dec 93 00:18:30
--------
EID:ae0f 1b8a0240
MSGID: 1:106/7512 9db61d12
ML> James Conwell, who thought arthritic bones were gnarly, said to
ML> Fredric Rice:
ML>
ML> FR> another $100.00 United States dollars if you can disprove the
ML> FR> immutable fact of evolution.
ML>
ML> JC> You keep using the term "immutable fact of evolution".
ML>
ML> JC> Why?
ML>
ML> Becasuse that's what it is.
ML>
ML> JC> I was taught in school about a "theory of evolution". In fact,
I
ML> have
ML> JC> never heard anyone use the phrase "immutable fact of evolution"
ML> to
ML> JC> explain life on earth.
ML>
ML> Then you need to read the literature.
ML>
ML> JC> do you have scientific proof of the "immutable fact of evolution"
ML> (as
ML> JC> it relates to living organisms on earth) ?
ML>
ML> Yep. The fossil record. Proves immutably that life has
ML> progressed from the simple to the complex over the span of
ML> geologic time. Fact.
Only a religious fanatic would go around claiming that a theory is an "immuta
ble fact".
--- Xenolink 1.0 Z.3
* Origin: The RASTER Line - 100% Amiga! (713) 568-0825 (1:106/7512)
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From: Suzy Rosenhan
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:26:48
--------
EID:eb56 1b89ab40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d07de68
JCJ> No, Steve, I would not accuse Suzy's family of
JCJ> not being true Christians for not liking you.
JCJ> From what I have seen here, they only have good taste.
You don't know my family, Jesse. How can you know whether or not they have
goo
d taste? They don't know Steve well enough to make a determination either
way.
Besides, what gives them the right to be in any way hateful towards him
just
because he's not a member of their faith? If they wanted him interested
in the
ir faith, wouldn't it do them more good to be loving and kind to him rather
th
an hateful?
JCJ> I hope that if and when my own daughters marry, I will be open
and
JCJ> disappointed and gravely concerned if she chose someone exhibiting
the
JCJ> hatefulness you consistently display here.
Aren't you displaying a little hatefulness yourself?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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From: Suzy Rosenhan
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Joy and thankfulness
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:24:46
--------
EID:98d1 1b89ab00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d07ddee
JCJ> Well, Steve, look up "joy" in any dictionary or thesaurus. You'll
JC
J> see words like ecstatic (out-of-body), exultant, triumphant. Fullness
JCJ
> of heart. People can passively "be" happy, but what do we do with joy?
JCJ
> We dance, we sing, we shout! It requires a certain child-like abandon,
JCJ
> and a mature confidence in the cosmos!
From the definition you've just given, I for one can attest that Steve experie
nces joy. I've seen Steve ecstatic, exultant, and triumphant. He also has
a ce
rtain child-like abandon that I see so rarely in a serious adult society.
He h
as maturity yet he still knows how to feel true joy.
JCJ> things we receive. It is a recognition that _everything_ we
JCJ> receive is special!
What do you mean by "_everything_ we receive"? Does "everything" include
disea
se, famine, violence, hatefulness, etc?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Suzy Rosenhan
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Speaking the truth
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:14:20
--------
EID:bb22 1b89a9c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d07db7c
REPLY: 1:135/71 ab91fe9f
JCJ> "The good person brings good things out of a good treasure, and the
evil
JCJ> person brings evil things out of an evil treasure."
JCJ> -- Mat 12:35 (NRSV)
Are you yourself evil since you taunt others and bring out the worst in
them?
Think about it. If you were truly good, why aren't you bringing the best
out o
f those who so readily flame you on this echo?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Blaster
To: All
Sub: enochian
Date: 08 Dec 93 19:45:08
--------
EID:19ce 1b889da0
are there any people out there who study enochian magick?
--- Renegade v07-17 Beta
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From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: STEVE BEDARD
Sub: Judaism
Date: 07 Dec 93 14:08:00
--------
EID:B0FD F3877100
SB>When do you think Judaism first started? Was it with Abraham, Moses,
the
SB>Pharisees or at some other time?
Judaism started when the Torah was given.
* OLX 2.1 TD * cogito ergo . . . get into a lot of arguments
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: STEVE BEDARD
Sub: Questions
Date: 07 Dec 93 14:12:00
--------
EID:A3CE F3877180
SB>MS>For that reason we do not have prophets, as it is better they should
SB>MS>ignore Rabbis who speak from tradition, then a prophet who speaks
SB>MS>directly from G-d.
SB>I don't know about that. Your argument does not do much to convince
me.
SB>I believe that there has been no new prophets because Israel has rejected
SB>the ultimate prophet, the Messiah.
Since there were no prophets during the period of the second Temple
period, that is not a valid thesis.
SB>MS>SB>Talmud? I would be curious to hear your opinions. He mentions
SB>MS>Jesus
SB>MS>SB>Christ throught his notes.
SB>MS>The question is of value. It is not worth my while to purchase it.
It
SB>MS>has no standing as an authority when it contradicts the text and the
SB>MS>commentaries on it. Much as you would not accept what scholars who
SB>MS>have
SB>MS>their own opinion, that is not based on the text.
SB>I was not asking you to purchase it. I figured it would available in
a
SB>library somewhere since that is where I got it. You make a good point
SB>though about relying on the commentators instead of the text. Why then
SB>do you rely on the Talmud to interpret scripture? Why not just use the
SB>scriptures? Out of curiosity, how much does it cost for the complete
SB>Talmud?
1. It is a compilation of Jewish laws known from tradition, it is not an
'interpretation'. 2. You can't understand how to follow the laws from
the written text alone. For example look at Exodus 21-23 and tell me how
a court is supposed to decide laws based on the text alone. 3. About 400
or 500. (I got mine when I got married).
SB>Is there scriptural evidence for this or is it based on the Talmud.
Throughout the Tenach G-d says that he judges according to what people
do.
* OLX 2.1 TD * cogito ergo . . . get into a lot of arguments
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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From: Steve Rose
To: James Conwell
Sub: POLITE
Date: 09 Dec 93 23:01:01
--------
EID:4ffb 1b89b820
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d081777
REPLY: 1:106/7512 0c8230d0
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
JC> If all the original humans were born atheists and noone was around to
JC> indoctrinate them into being theists then how could they become theists?
Someone saw a thunderstorm one night and cowered in fear. The rest is history
as religionoids were born that fateful night.
See? We can invent fairy-tales just like the fundy!
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Up
Date: 09 Dec 93 23:04:02
--------
EID:c521 1b89b880
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d07f595
REPLY: 1:124/9005 2d04e666
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
Hello Steve!
SQ>
SQ> -+- GoldED 2.42.G1125+
SQ> + Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan
What name may I freq that copy of Golded under? I think it is time to upgrade
here. :)
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Russian Orthodoxy
Date: 09 Dec 93 23:07:03
--------
EID:f565 1b89b8e0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d08178e
REPLY: 1:135/71 ab0671f2
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
JCJ> I was pleasantly surprised to learn recently that Graham was a
JCJ> strong supporter of Dr. Martin Luther King's, and counseled him on
how
JCJ> to organize mass rallies and national tours.
We heard he also booked Martin's hotel rooms.
--- FD 2.20mL/Fmail 0.96g+
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: Scripture
Date: 09 Dec 93 23:09:04
--------
EID:7bbc 1b89b920
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d07f723
REPLY: 1:154/40.2 A929E50E
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
Hello Amy!
JCJ>> This cliched response masks the undeniable fact that evangelical
JCJ>> atheists have _no_ traditions to cite or to inform them on their
JCJ>> walk on this planet.
AA>
AA> I think it's weird that I THOUGHT I had access to history and literature
AA> to provide tradition if I wanted it, not to mention family. Guess I
was
AA> wrong...
Just part of that on going fundy campaign to equate all historical relevence
t
o 'babble scriptures' and moral comic books, which *noids so richly deserve.
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: James Conwell
Sub: Divine Conception
Date: 10 Dec 93 01:22:05
--------
EID:df01 1b8a0ac0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d0815b7
REPLY: 1:106/7512 b005fec0
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
ZC>> So they had two sons. Who'd the surviving son screw?
JC>
JC> According to the Bible, Adam and Eve had numerous sons and daughters.
A fairy-tale book...talking about cartoon people that never existed.
Who gives a rat's ass?
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: James Conwell
Sub: POLE
Date: 10 Dec 93 07:46:00
--------
EID:aaf0 1b8a3dc0
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d086fbe
REPLY: 1:106/7512 12b738ff
PID: GED 2.41+ 1039
JC> Many humans will believe whatever stupid story they are told but many
JC> other humans don't need to be told anything. They simply use their
JC> imagination to invent lies for themselves to believe.
Or cartoon myth-babbles to read. How true!
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Emptiness
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:02:58
--------
EID:8437 1b899840
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Jesse!
7 Dec 93, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> The most important was this bit about "emptiness". Please demonstrate
SQ>> for the court how we're all "empty", and of course, please present
us
SQ>> with the evidence upon which you base this outrageous claim.
JC> Well, your post, I think, is pretty compelling evidence!
Oh? Tell us more, tell us more.
JC> You atheists are marching around bravely proclaiming, we
JC> don't need nothin' or nobody!
Straw man. I don't know about others, but I don't need fictional heroes
to
help me through the day. As for needing "nothin'" or "nobody" (Is your
use of the double-negative intentional here?), that's a load of crap.
I need a job to pay the bills. I need my friends, I need my wife-to-be.
However, the job, the friends, and the wife are all known to exist. Your
Jesus is not, no matter how well you attempt to stack the deck. You dodged
the point as well: Why not Dopefish instead? Why Jesus?
JC> We people of faith recognize our needs.
Just as physicians prescribe placebos for hypochondriacs, yes.
JC> Who is it that is being unrealistic?
Jesse C. Jones?
JC> Rev. William Sloane Coffin answered a critic who called
Yes, well, the Reverend needed the placebo too.
JC> religion a "crutch" -- "so what makes you think you don't
JC> limp?"
Demonstrate how I "limp" and we'll talk.
... REAL men need a mistress.
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Guess who's coming to dinner?
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:33:04
--------
EID:ba8a 1b899c20
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Jesse!
7 Dec 93, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Steve Quarrella:
JC> No, Steve, I would not accuse Suzy's family of not being
JC> true Christians for not liking you. From what I have seen
JC> here, they only have good taste.
Ah, good...I can smell the hate and anger from a mile away. Keep it up,
you're almost there. Sounds like you'd be as snug as bug with them...want
Suzy to drop you an address in netmail so you can go be empty together?
Perhaps you can discuss who's the True Christian and the truly thankful
among you.
JC> open and inclusive about her selection of a mate. But I
JC> must say, I would be disappointed and gravely concerned if
JC> she chose someone exhibiting the hatefulness you
JC> consistently display here.
Oh, there's that straw man again. It has been presented to you time and
time
again here that every time someone demands straight answers from you, you
decide that that's "hatefulness". Why is that? It is absolutely HILARIOUS
as to how many points from my posts you evaded, just like you do with
Robert Curry. It seems that, in addition to being one of the few, the
proud, who understand the so-called "true meaning" of thankfulness, you
also seem to be one of the same select clique who understands what
"hatefulness" is. Prithee, tell us what you mean by this "hatefulness."
It seems that not sitting still and smiling wanly while you spew your
ignorance qualifies as "hatefulness."
JC> Or is it all just an act?
:-)
... "De los sos ojos tan fuertemientre lorando...."
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Joy and thankfulness
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:37:00
--------
EID:1b26 1b899ca0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Jesse!
7 Dec 93, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Steve Quarrella:
JC> Well, Steve, look up "joy" in any dictionary or thesaurus.
So now we're going to play this game? Instead of Bibles, you
want to thump dictionaries? Cut the semantic bullshit, eh?
JC> You'll see words like ecstatic (out-of-body), exultant,
JC> triumphant. Fullness of heart. People can passively "be"
JC> happy, but what do we do with joy? We dance, we sing, we
JC> shout! It requires a certain child-like abandon, and a
JC> mature confidence in the cosmos!
Out-of-body....good grief.
Yep! I knew it! "You're not TRULY HAPPY ". You're
just like some of my in-laws: You can't deal with non-conformity. That's
it, isn't it? Because other people aren't bouncing around acting like
YOU would expect them to act, you think they're empty and angry and
hurting. That's it, isn't it? You're not the first -asshole- to tell
me "You're unhappy because you don't smile" or some other claptrap (Ask
Suzy...she sees me smile all the time, especially when I'm sitting in
the tub watching Tom Servo on MST3K.). Who are you to tell me or anybody
else "You're not truly happy."? What a bunch of crap. And you've obviously
never seen me listening to "Highway Star" or reading Beowulf or any of
the other things that put a smile on my face, have you?
Face it: You're far from empty, but I'm not quite sure as to what it is
you're full of.
JC> And "thankfulness" is not just about the special things we
JC> receive. It is a recognition that _everything_ we receive
JC> is special! It helps us to see and appreciate our gifts.
Where did I ever say anything to the contrary? Here's your mumbo-jumbo
again:
FROM: Jesse C. Jones Area # 28 ( HOLYSMOKE )
TO: All MSG # 485, Nov-25-93 8:12am
SUBJECT: Thanksgiving greetings
I write early on Thanksgiving morning and know how blessed
it is to have a thankful heart.
"Those who bring thanksgiving as their sacrifice honor me; to those who
go the
right way I will show the salvation of God."" -- Psa 50:23 (NRSV)
"All your works shall give thanks to you, O LORD, and all your faithful
shall
bless you." -- Psa 145:10 (NRSV)
I recall my wife many years ago telling a small Bible study
of her near-death from Lupus. She said that once she was out of
danger she wandered by herself to the hospital chapel, compelled
by a feeling that "something" -- "someone" -- she corrected
herself -- "had to be thanked." The minister replied,
"'something' will do just fine."
You secularists (thank who for what?) are missing the joy of
thankfulness. of gratefulness, of grace itself. I hope each of
you at least enjoyed your turkey.
Thanks be to God!
===
It sounds like you can't get your story straight. The one minute, you're
claiming that we need your God to be thankful, and then you're rattling
off something about not being truly thankful unless you consider everything
special. What's going on here? I think it interesting that, like all
Fundamentalists before you, you are attempting to change the rules every
time someone starts beating you at your own game. Figures.
JC> It produces doxology rather than analysis It is never
JC> demanding of more. And it is never obscured by the deceit
JC> of thinking the gift is deserved!
From whose book did you take this crap? Speak in English....please.
JC> Had any lately?
Two nights ago.
... Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Amazing Grace
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:29:50
--------
EID:f47a 1b899ba0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Robert!
7 Dec 93, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Robert Curry:
JC> Well, answer my question, then, so we can get started.
JC> What, if anything, do you know or understand about the
JC> Christian concept of Grace?
Say 'Goodnight', Robert.
... Tennessee foreplay: "Hey Maw, where's cousin Ellie Mae?"
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Am not discussing it here. And not in the "Echo"
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:35:58
--------
EID:b28a 1b899c60
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
6 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
FR> The light of reason is too bright in here. Or actually the
FR> demands for evidence and the demands for _reason_ are too
FR> caustic for many.
Have you noticed which sugar-coated dearheart is spewing his own brand of
hatefulness lately? It is SO MUCH FUN to pull their strings and watch
them dance. :)
FR> I see that you got my network mail to an unfortunate about the
FR> immutable fact of Star Goat.
I wonder what he would have said about Dopefish! "Absurd?! Why? Why is
that absurd?"
FR> I said that it was too bad that
FR> he abandoned the lambs in HS to their dred fate
Just like Joe Savelli, eh?
... Valencia: The spectre looms again...
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: America
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:39:40
--------
EID:839f 1b899ce0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
6 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Rick Vanderzwaag:
FR> I'll make it the top of my list. There is a _huge_ book shop
FR> in Utrecht, I hear, though have never gone to. And, no, I've
If you make it to this bookshop, look for the following titles for me, eh?
[All by Michael Moorcock, pseudonyms where noted.]
Fiction
Caribbean Crisis, with James Cawthorn, under house pseudonym
Desmond Reid. London: Fleetway, 1962.
The Sundered Worlds. London: Compact Books, 1965; New York:
Paperback Library, 1966; also published as The Blood Red Game.
London: Sphere Books, 1970.
The Deep Fix, under pseudonym James Colvin. London: Compact Books,
1966.
The LSD Dossier (ghostwritten for Roger Harris). London: Compact
Books, 1966.
Printer's Devil, under pseudonym Bill Barclay. London: Compact
Books, 1966; also published in a revised edition as The Russian
Intelligence by MM. Manchester, England: Savoy Books, 1980.
Somewhere in the Night, under pseudonym Bill Barclay. London:
Compact Books, 1966; also published as The Chinese Agent by MM.
New York: Macmillan, 1970.
The Distant Suns, with James Cawthorn, under joint pseudonym
Philip James. Bombay: Times of India Press, 1969; Llanfynydd,
Wales: Unicorn Bookshop, 1975.
Sojan (for children). Manchester, England: Savoy Books, 1977.
The Real Life Mr. Newman. London: A. J. Callow, 1979.
The Golden Barge: A Fable. Manchester, England: Savoy, 1977; New
York: DAW Books, 1980.
My Experiences in the Third World War. Manchester, England: Savoy,
1980.
Elric series:
The Sleeping Sorceress. London: New English Library, 1972; New
York: Lancer, 1972.
Elric: The Return to Melnibon‚, with Phillipe Druillet. Brighton,
England: Unicorn Bookshop, 1973.
The Jade Man's Eyes. Brighton, England and Seattle: Unicorn
Bookshop, 1973.
Jerry Cornelius Series
The Great Rock and Roll Swindle. London: Virgin Books, 1980.
The Eternal Champion series:
The Swords of Heaven, the Flowers of Hell, with Howard Chaykin.
New York: Heavy Metal, 1978.
Von Bek Family series:
The Brothel in Rosenstrasse: An Extravagant Tale. London: New
English Library, 1982; New York: Carroll & Graf, 1987.
Colonel Pyat series:
Byzantium Endures. London: Secker & Warburg, 1981; New York:
Random House, 1982.
Jerusalem Commands. Forthcoming in 1991.
Nonfiction:
Epic Pooh. London: British Fantasy Society, 1978.
The Retreat from Liberty: The Erosion of Democracy in Today's
Britain. London: Zomba Books, 1983.
Exploring Fantasy Worlds: Essays on Fantastic Literature, with
others; edited by Darrell Schweitzer. San Bernardino, California:
Borgo Press, 1985.
Letters from Hollywood. London: Harrap, 1986.
... Give masochists a fair crack of the whip.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Who needs a god?
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:47:48
--------
EID:e8ba 1b899de0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Robert!
8 Dec 93, dixit Robert Curry ad Suzy Rosenhan:
SR>> Somehow I don't think my family will get the message when they
SR>> find out that I excluded them from my wedding.
RC> They'll live.
And when they finally speak, that's when I say "Sorry, I wasn't welcome
on your vacation trip because you wanted to set a good example for your
children, even though you DID invite me to your 'What the church can do
for you' function two weeks later."
Then we'll see what True Christianity is, methinks. The shells will come
off, and they'll probably call me worse names than I've called them. :)
... On the other hand, it -is- OK to prick your finger.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Backwards Masking
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:51:50
--------
EID:a4a3 1b899e60
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Simon!
5 Dec 93, dixit Simon Ewins ad Steve Quarrella:
SE>> Do you deny that christians have used Satan as a gimmick?
SQ>> Hey, I like that...gonna enjoy watching this fold unthread.
SE> I would like it to 'unthread' ...
Aw, geez, just a little poetic metathesis there. Maybe someone will quote
me in a hundred years. :)
SE> Alas Mr. Bedard has taken to ignoring me lately.
Surprise, surprise. I notice that we're going in a circle on this issue.
:-\
... WOMAN.ZIP: Great program, no dox. But fun to UNZIP.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Tim Bennett
Sub: JW's going away
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:54:52
--------
EID:62b5 1b899ec0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Tim!
4 Dec 93, dixit Tim Bennett ad Steve Quarrella:
TB> If you get my mom REALLY mad she will use the f-word.... then
TB> say, oh shit I didn't mean to say that dammit.
And then she probably stays awake worrying that Jehovah God really has the
time to monitor her language, what, while he's off starving people in
Somalia.
TB> She had selective amnesia about the whole thing. 'But you
TB> really shouldn't talk to your mother like that.'
"Well, next to you conveniently forget that you came over here to
proselytize, conveniently forget to call me again."
TB>> -- BWQuote v1.0
SQ>> BW Quote?
TB> I liked Fredric's idea so much that I wrote my own. It opens
Sounds like something David Strickland might like, as he was interested
in writing one too. David?
TB> copy your way if you want it. Who knows, I might even let YOU
TB> write the docs :)
It's OK...I can do this with SX if I take the time to set it up. :)
... Friends don't let friends enact hate laws.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: The End Is Near
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:55:30
--------
EID:c9f4 1b899ee0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Martin!
8 Dec 93, dixit Martin Goldberg ad ALL:
MG> By the time you have read this, Godmarty and myself will have
MG> had lunch together at some cheap joint in Houston. I know that
MG> it will be cheap as he has offered to pick up the check.
MG> Having never met him, this should be a strange experience.
You and I are next. :)
... Nuke 'em til they glow, then shoot 'em.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Burning Bush
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:57:58
--------
EID:8a1b 1b899f20
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Martin!
8 Dec 93, dixit Martin Goldberg ad Neal Feldman:
MG> Most desert shrubs are high in burnables, but what you are
MG> thinking of is the Creosote Bush from which comes creosotes
MG> which is a long burning substance.
Oh shit...here comes Mr. Creosote....
... "Is there a Lawyer in the House? -=}BLAM!{=- Any more!?"
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Christmas Article
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:58:32
--------
EID:cd48 1b899f40
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Martin!
8 Dec 93, dixit Martin Goldberg ad Starwyn:
MG> Tell you what, I'm gonna call your system. Upload some gifs
MG> for you. Weill leave you the old work address there.
If she's got new ones, I, er, we want to see them. :)
... Work is the curse of the drinking class.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: You need God, like a fish needs a bicycle
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:44:30
--------
EID:73b6 1b89ad80
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Marty!
5 Dec 93, dixit Marty Leipzig ad Jesse C. Jones:
JCJ>> Mother Earth is dying.
ML> You certainly have a bloated notion of man's grandiosity
ML> if you think this is the case.
I'd be willing to compromise and say that Mother Earth is in sad shape
(Where's Jesse's deity to fix it, BTW?), and we better take good care of
it if he hope to keep on living here. However:
Since Jesse likes to quote from people, I once heard George Carlin go on
and
on about his distaste for "Save the planet" people. Why? Look at what
"Mother Earth" has endured for millions of years, and we're egocentric
enough to believe that we're going to wipe it out? As much as it pains
me
to hear that, I agree with it...the planet is going to effectively say
"Fuck you", and WE are the ones that'll have to deal with it. So much for
"Man as Master of the Planet", eh?
... Beam me up, Scotty...this planet sucks.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Well, I was gone again...
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:45:18
--------
EID:b219 1b89ada0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
ML> ... The days before marriage are like a snappy introduction to
ML> a tedious book
And I'm only a week away....Dopefish help me!
... Captain Hook died yesterday of jock itch.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Backward masking
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:49:58
--------
EID:d2c5 1b89ae20
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, John!
5 Dec 93, dixit John Musselwhite ad Steve Quarrella:
JM> earlier songs backwards, you will see, or rather hear (if
JM> you are into this sort of thing) He wrote the tunes in one
JM> direction, then reversed some of them to achieve the
JM> effect. It's either that or he's musically dyslexic!
For instance?
SQ>> Amazing how scant the reading material is WRT the Beatles playing into
SQ>> this little conspiracy theory. I tend to think of some interesting
JM> Which conspiracy?
That McCartney died, was replaced by a look-alike, and the Beatles covered
it up. What a joke (I wonder what Linda Thompson would say!).
... Life: Anything that dies when you stomp it.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: You need God (sic) like you need a hole in the head
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:52:24
--------
EID:29a2 1b89ae80
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
5 Dec 93, dixit Fredric Rice ad Jesse C. Jones:
FR> And guess what religious zealotry is the biggest problem
FR> standing in the way of getting these problems fixed? Go ahead,
FR> make a guess.
Damned if I can't find that James Watt quote about us using up all of our
natural resources because Jesus is coming and he's going to be pissed if
we
don't use everything he's provided. Geez!
... Those who stand for something fall for nothing.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Spam Jake Day
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:55:06
--------
EID:a1db 1b89aee0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, jonny!
6 Dec 93, dixit jonny vee ad Steve Quarrella:
>> ROFL! I gotta get in on this. But shouldn't it be "Spam Jape"? :)
jv> Nope. The jake (a concatenation of "jape" and "joke" I guess)
jv> is a term coined specifically by Harold Lord Randomfactor for
jv> his contribution to OM.
Shoot. I watch too much Red Dwarf. :)
jv> The details of this and other Discordian acts of chaos can be
jv> found in the appendices of R.A.Wilson and Robert Shea's book,
jv> _The Illuminatus! Trilogy_
I need to grab a copy of THE MONKEY WRENCH GANG m'self. :) [Hayduke is
another god of mine, of course. ;) ]
... Man who fights with wife all day gets no piece at night.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Neal Feldman
Sub: Demon Barney
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:56:52
--------
EID:6097 1b89af00
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Neal!
5 Dec 93, dixit Neal Feldman ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Barney the dinosaur, preschoolers' favorite foam-rubber
NF> ROTFLU! Thanks for the amusement.
Don't thank me, thank the Fundies, man! :)
NF> You mean, as the Indiana case about Louie Louie after the
NF> governor banned the song as 'obscene', which stated, after
NF> great investigation by the FBI into examining it forwards,
NF> backwards, and at all range of speeds, that the song was
NF> "Unintelligable at any speed"?
-Precisely-. I have the lyrics for that sucker around here somewhere, and
they're quite innocuous. What WOULD fascinate me is the history of the
song: I understand it goes back to the days of cane cutting while watchful
Christians stood by.
SQ>> I wonder what Jesus would think of Barney. I wonder if he really
SQ>> hates that "Accept people for what they are" mentality.
NF> Kinda shows many things, doesn't it?
It speaks VOLUMES.
... A cult is a religion with no political power.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Backwards Masking
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:58:18
--------
EID:0b43 1b89af40
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Styx!
4 Dec 93, dixit Styx Allum ad Steve Bedard:
SA> The song "Stairway to Heaven" does indeed have a hidden message,
SA> but it's hidden in plain sight. The song is about a lady having
SA> an abortion as a means to "undo" her sinful mistake.
Where'd you get THIS from?
... I love California. It's the crowds that piss me off!
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Critical thinking?
Date: 09 Dec 93 22:04:48
--------
EID:2fa1 1b89b080
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Jesse!
5 Dec 93, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Fredric Rice:
JC> Is this what passes for critical thinking among the
JC> allegedly "better- educated" atheists here?
Oh, delightful! Please, provide us with yet another gem from your magnus
opus collection. Perhaps another diatribe about how empty everybody is
because "you just know", or another pearl of wisdom about how we need your
God to be thankful.
JC> I opine that
JC> the former USSR (a) was evil, and (b) was morally inferior
JC> to the USA.
And you've been given counter-examples showing that "My country 'tis of
thee" has done some pretty shitty things that compare with some of the
pretty shitty things that the USSR did.
JC> mean that I somehow embrace the tactics of Senator Joe
JC> McCarthy, who attacked everyone who refused to join him in
You sure do remind me of him sometimes. Are you certain that you don't
have a problem with non-conformity? Instead of calling people "Godless
Communists" when they don't sing "Kum Bah Ya" on cue, you call them
"heathens". What's the difference?
JC> You're caught once again, Fredric, looking stupid and
JC> knowing it.
ROFL! "Ow, ow, ow!"
JC> willing to dare any critical thought that you will say
JC> anything in order to attack me personally.
ROFL! Your law professors SHOULD have been slapped.
JC> of Rights, e.g. -- shows, IMO, an utter disdain for and
JC> inability to make any moral judgment.
Fred! You need Jesus!
... Let people think they govern and they will be governed.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Childish and evil game
Date: 09 Dec 93 22:05:40
--------
EID:8d7d 1b89b0a0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Fredric!
5 Dec 93, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Fredric Rice:
JC> But God loves you, Fredric, and so do I. It is never too
JC> late to listen to that still small voice inside.
Aha! Now you see the violence inherent in the system! Help, we're being
repressed!
... If Windows sucked it would be good for something.
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From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Straw arguments
Date: 09 Dec 93 06:38:00
--------
EID:1087 04766bf0
MSGID: 1:135/71 ac87397c
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Fredric Rice <=-
To deal with religious faith you have to stuff it into a box of your own
choosing. To borrow a phrase, I present "a case in point":
ML> I feel sympathy for folks like Jesse, et al. Due to
ML> their seeing everything through "deity-filtered" glasses, they are
ML> the ones missing out on the wonders and amazements of the Earth
ML> and Universe. Case in point: my 6 year old daughter asked me why
ML> the sky was blue. What's the better answer: "Because God made it
ML> that way" or a 6-year olds version of optics, physics and Rayliegh
ML> scattering?
No Christian that I know would think of answering the child's question
"Because God made it that way." That's bad science _and_ bad theology.
ML> Truly trite, but true nonetheless: "To waste a mind is a terrible
ML> thing". To waste a life in the here-and-now preparing for an
ML> illusory afterlife is even worse.
Such a life would also be one lived in disobedience to the Word of God.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ compels us to work to better life on the planet
her
e
and now. For those who disobey, Jesus warned, there will be "weeping and
gnashing of teeth." Matthew 25:30.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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From: Jesse C. Jones
To: David Rice
Sub: Morality
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:56:01
--------
EID:1087 04766bf1
MSGID: 1:135/71 ac87397d
-=> Quoting David Rice to Derek Clayton <=-
DR> Morality is culturally and ethnically based, and it is pointless
DR> to compare one nation to another on bases of "morality."
I disagree. Certainly culture influences morality (I don't see how
ethnicity adds anything useful though beyond culture, do you?). Here in
Miami
,
through our Christian Community Service Agency, I deal with our Cuban-American
community and our Haitian community, and they both have unique ethical
perspectives, in the areas of politics, of helping the poor, of families,
etc.
,
etc.
However, there are some moral choices we have confidence in pronouncing
a
s
universal. Murder. Theft. Lying. There can be differences of interpretatio
n
and application, but civilized people find ways to agree these are morally
wrong. (Interestingly, another value which is almost universally accepted
is
monogamy).
I think today people around the globe who dare to think globally see
absolutes supporting human rights. We are still struggling to define those
rights, but we at least dare to dream that such rights can be universally
recognized.
DR> With a few seconds worth of thought, I'd say that "evil" is that
DR> which directly harms, causes harm, or through inaction allows harm.
Harms who or what? And why is that evil?
DR> "Good" is that which opposes harm. "Good" can still exist without
DR> the existance of "evil" because harm is not derived soly by "evil."
Defining "good" as a negative seems terribly limiting.
DR> "Harm" is that which prevents one from achieving happiness, provided
DR> that said happiness comes about without harming another.
DR> "Happiness" is that which feeds us, shelters us, gives us pleasure,
DR> nurtures us, and gives value to our lives.
What does it mean to give value to your life?
DR> So "evil" would be that which limits, in any way, another's, or one's
DR> own, quality of life. "Good" is that which supports and adds to the
DR> quality of life.
Kind of circular, isn't it. What gives life quality?
DR> Unfortunately, all too often the happiness of one person sometimes
DR> depends on harming another. I call this "evil," and I have no answer
DR> for it. "It is the ability to sleep soundly, knowing that one's
DR> neighbors are in agony," as Carol P. Christ put it.
Good definition of evil, I think.
DR> So for Jesse to assert that the USA is somehow morally superior to
DR> the USSR. . . well, that seems utterly meaningless to me. Only when
DR> he provides a valid scale upon which "morality" can be measured can
DR> I agree or dissagree with him.
Well, how about affirming human rights and individual liberties, for
starters? Are those not worthy moral values?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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From: Kitty-Kat
To: Ariadne
Sub: Re: Virgin Birth
Date: 08 Dec 93 23:07:00
--------
EID:a364 1b88b8e0
MSGID: 1:243/30.0 2d06a464
-=> Quoting Ariadne to Hector Plasmic <=-
Ar> Well, other than a corroborating story along with my husband, I don't
Ar> have any "evidence." I don't see why you're so offended. I
Ar> didn't say that YOU had to have a manifestation of Her in
Ar> your living room. I simply stated that that is what *I*
Ar> experienced. To me, if I experienced it, then it happened.
Ar> If it happened to me, then it's fact. I personally don't
Would you netmail me a detailed account of your experience? I'm
very interested being Catholic myself. Thanks.
... And on the seventh day He took an aspirin.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Kitty-Kat
To: Christopher Baker
Sub: Catholicism
Date: 10 Dec 93 01:47:00
--------
EID:2cc0 1b8a0de0
MSGID: 1:243/30.0 2d081b64
-=> Quoting Christopher Baker to Kitty-kat <=-
CB> too bad the millions killed by them can't respond in a
CB> 'charitable spirit'. maybe a seance? [grin]
I don't approve of everything the Church did for sure. But I'm
not ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater either. Take
care. Post again soon.
... He who laughs, lasts.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: ±²± LIFTOFF! BBS ±²± Adult Entertainment š (613)567-6425 (1:243/30)
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From: Greg Gentry
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Re: EVOLUTION & INTELLIGENCE!
Date: 10 Dec 93 04:22:17
--------
EID:9821 1b8a22c0
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d088619
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Fredric Rice <=-
FR> Look at the wording that Bil-lie uses. It's straight from an ICR
FR> publication. Bil-lie doesn't _have_ the original.
DC> It's simply amazing. He claims that he didn't do it. Then
DC> claims that it was a misunderstanding. Then he does it
DC> again. I guess he thinks everyone else's retention of
DC> previous postings is non-existant. Even dumber, he doesn't
DC> realize that many have archives of the particular message.
I heard someone from the ICR the other night, (made me mad cause the
station I heard it on was bleeding into the one I was listening to)
they are a hoot! Can anyone tell me the truth about the elbow bone, the
one that supposedly comes from a modern man nearly 4.5 million years
ago. (And I thought the earth was only 6600 years old ;-)
... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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From: Greg Gentry
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Re: _New Scientist_ bonanza
Date: 10 Dec 93 04:22:18
--------
EID:0264 1b8a22c0
MSGID: 1:280/25.0 2d08861a
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.30/g 7615
-=> Quoting Dan Ceppa to Kelsey Bjarnason <=-
-> Kelsey Bjarnason got back to David Rice Re: _New Scientist_ bonanza
DR>1854! (a bit late, in my opinion!) Quoting the Pope:
DR> "The claimed incompatibility between science and faith
DR>belongs in the past."
KB> Egads - a slight return to sanity. Amazing.
DC> Not necessarily.... Look at how the ICR handles their
DC> scientific studies. You may want to rethink that!
I saw this television show about scientists who had found natural explanations
for many of the miracles of the bible. They said that the furnace that
those three men (Meshac, etc. I think) were thrown into was just really
cold in places, and that the temple Samson pushed over was just a really
weak temple. Kinda destroys the point of them being miracles, don't ya
think?
... Do what you will with this tagline, just don't bother me about it!
--- D'Bridge/RA/FastEcho...
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From: Peri Michaud
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: Archives
Date: 06 Dec 93 01:29:21
--------
EID:6b24 1b860ba0
MSGID: 1:142/232 2d03e3bf
PID: TeleMail 1.51
< Quoting Kelsey Bjarnason to All on 01 Dec 93 15:33:22...>
KB> #include "anyone_who_is_interested"
KB> Here's a short list comprising my admittedly pitiful personal
KB> archives....
KB> If anyone wants me to post any of these, just tell me the filename...
Hi Kelsey,
I hope this isn't too much of a pain but there are 4 files I'd like
to see...
GODKILL.TXT
EVOL.TXT
STARGOAT.TXT
THEORY.TXT
BTW, are you purging your files? If not, may I request others later? I'd
really like to check them all out at some other time.
Thanks.
Pez
... No pizza, no happiness :< Know pizza, know happiness :> -Lord Nelmst
--- Blue Wave/TG v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Bruce Haslam
To: Simon Ewins
Sub: Truth
Date: 06 Dec 93 23:49:18
--------
EID:f5c5 1b86be20
MSGID: 1:142/232 2d041bfc
PID: Telegard 2.7
Truth is not determined by the majority. If the churh is rooted in truth,
it
will stand. Our part is to find the truth in our own hearts not by a poll.
---
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From: QUENTIN FAI
To: Stephen Vakil
Sub: Back to school with Al
Date: 09 Dec 93 13:42:00
--------
EID:2efd 1b896d40
MSGID: 1:358/1 ac0dc7b1
I was eavesdropping on Stephen Vakil, and I heard:
SV> Ah, I see. Let me guess, it's been nearly 2000 years since
you
SV> (or anyone else) has seen Daisy in her pink state, but you
SV> expect us to believe her existance because of tradition
SV> and word of mouth?
Not quite... I am saying I saw Daisy sleeping in my bed last night. I said,
"Get the hell out of there!! You know I have given you the 8088 to sleep
in!", and she left, going into my old 8088. She was invisible at the time,
though.
SV> Tell me if I'm getting warm yet. :)
Well... sorta :)
* JABBER v1.3B1 #B135 * Beavis and Butthead don't suck.
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00H1
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From: Jay Noyes
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Food for thought
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:30:10
--------
EID:c772 1b899bc0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d07c312
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 025d5900
JN> Good point. I know little about Satanists. Insert if you
JN>will "some member of a religion that you
JN>disapprove of that happens
JN>to sacrifice chickens". (heh). I choose Satanists because I know
JN>that the name would evoke strong emotions in most Christians,
JN>emotions that Santeria might not be as strongly associated with.
HP> While I fully understand what you intended, it was probably not
HP> necessary. xtians believe everyone is a satanist. :-)
Or... gasp... Jewish.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Jay Noyes
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Re: Fundamentalists of all stripes
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:31:52
--------
EID:195b 1b899be0
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d07c378
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 025de100
JN>Tell me, what would you think of the idea
JN>that, hypothetically speaking, ghosts were real, but we could only
JN>perceive them and be affected by them if we believed, or were
JN>honestly willing to believe in their existance.
HP> Do you think I'd be convicted of murder if I
HP> convinced someone that if I
HP> looked at them crosseyed they'd die, and then I
HP> looked at them crosseyed,
HP> and they died?
Honestly, I don't know. If the prosecutor was really good, he would bring
u
p psychological evidence showing that you actually can kill with hysteria.
If
they believe strongly enough, its possible that the stress could kill them.
No kidding.
Although interesting in and of itself, that's not quite what I meant.
Just wondering what people think about magic and metaphysics,
Jaybird
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Jay Noyes
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Food for thought
Date: 09 Dec 93 19:36:08
--------
EID:3cc4 1b899c80
MSGID: 1:11/156.0 2d07c478
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido a996561a
jv> And so you invoke strong emotions among those who
jv> know a little of what satanism is all about, heh
jv> heh.
And was darn successful, too. Yuk yuk.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Ariadne
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 08:19:42
--------
EID:a5ed 1b894260
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 d0726570
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a17378
Quoth Ariadne thusly:
A> Yes, but at least we Wiccans don't go around trying to shove
A> it down everyone else's throats, like the Christians and
A> athiests...
Since atheists have no theistic belief to force down a throat, what exactly
do you perceive them forcing? Nothing?
... Inåo–s Xpiåē•v: •kvep¢v kai vīkpo¨.
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Ariadne
Sub: Satanic "Sacrifice"
Date: 09 Dec 93 08:22:56
--------
EID:262f 1b8942c0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 d0726571
REPLY: 1:153/826 52a177a2
Quoth Ariadne to Martin Goldberg thusly:
MG>Prayer to me, is prayer, whether xtian or not. I'm an equal
MG>opportunity religion basher.
A> Hehe... Prayer is a form of meditation. Science has proved
A> the benefits of meditation several times over. It's good
A> for the body, it's good for the memory, it improves long and
A> short term recall...
Evidence, please. Saying "science has proved" without citations usually
means "I have no evidence but if I make a blanket statement using the words
science and proved then I will gain credibility for my point".
... Inåo–s Xpiåē•v: •kvep¢v kai vīkpo¨.
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Scripture
Date: 09 Dec 93 08:27:22
--------
EID:bb9f 1b894360
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 d0726575
Quoth Jesse C. Jones thusly:
JCJ> This cliched response masks the undeniable fact that evangelical
JCJ> atheists have _no_ traditions to cite or to inform them on their walk
JCJ> on this planet.
I'm not sure what an evangelical atheist might be but at least, as you say,
they are walking. Walking allows one the opportunity to view in some sensual
detail all that is around them. Christians, and other religious mental
defectives, just hop on a bus that will take them safely to the gates of
their heaven. They miss the realities of this planet in their unbridled
zeal
to leave it. They spend their life preparing for their death. That is, at
best, psychotic.
They do good and moral things because they have been told to.
Atheists do good and ethical things because they want to.
Christians do good and moral things for the reward of eternal life at the
end.
Atheists do good and ethical things with no thought of a personal
reward of eternal life.
Christians do good and moral things because they are in fear of eternal
damnation and torment.
Atheists do good and ethical things because those things are good and
ethical and because they choose to so do.
Who, I ask you, is the more philanthropic and the less selfserving?
Good works may, indeed, be done in either case. However, the christian
motive is, at best, questionable and at its worst, shameful.
... Inåo–s Xpiåē•v: •kvep¢v kai vīkpo.
--- timEd/B8
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From: Simon Ewins
To: Christian Soldier
Sub: Faith In God
Date: 09 Dec 93 08:38:36
--------
EID:b9ac 1b8944c0
MSGID: 1:250/664.0 d072ce31
REPLY: 1:123/67 2d03e56c
Quoth Christian Soldier to Shelby Sherman thusly:
CS> It is not irrelevant, because it is
CS> evidence of the validity of the Christian faith. The fact
CS> that Christians seem to be more caring, more socially
CS> acceptable, and lead successful lives, could well be a
CS> manifestation of God working in their life.
It is more likely to be an indication of very selfish people doing good
things in order to either gain a reward of eternal life or to avoid eternal
torment. Not very laudable.
SS> Please provide evidence of one miracle.
CS> Extreme order of our universe.
Bzzzzt...
A) can be attributed to other causes.
B) why is that a miracle?
C) who says the universe is 'ordered' to an 'extreme'?
Please try again.
... Inåo–s Xpiåē•v: •kvep¢v kai vīkpo.
--- timEd/B8
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From: MOSHE SHULMAN
To: FREDRIC RICE
Sub: Virgin Births
Date: 09 Dec 93 10:57:00
--------
EID:4E7D F3895720
FR>DC> belief in God. Why does this claim remain unchallenged? Why
FR>DC> are persons [such] as Hector Plasmic, Simon Ewins, and Frederic
FR>DC> Rice suddenly nowhere to be [found] when a claim for wicca is
FR>DC> being made?
FR>ms> Good question.
FR>The answer of which is easy: Wiccans are never exposed as having raped
FR>children in their rectories as have so many Catholic priests have been.
An
d
FR>they have yet to go door-to-door selling their mysticisms. They have
yet t
o
FR>have a gathering drink poison for their archtypes nor have they banded
FR>together with weapons. Yes, they're often just as mystical and irrational
a
FR>any deity believer can be yet they're usually quiet about it.
No Frederic, you answer is not valid. 1. His point was that any believer
in a god is attacked here. Your comments have little to do with that. I
am not aware of any of the believers in G-d on this conference who have
raped little boys or who believe that it is either justifyable or
acceptable to their religion. 2. The attacks here are made purely on
beliefs and not on actions. What makes their beliefs sacred and
untouchable and others not? Beliefs is the question and not actions! 3.
The attacks on my beliefs (being one who does not push my religion or
seek to convert anyone), would show that you are in error about the
'quientess' being the reason. I would suggest seriously considering what
he has to say. You are being a hypocrite here.
FR>I had thought that everyone knew this.
No. There are no facts to back it up. In fact the facts show the
opposite is true.
* OLX 2.1 TD * cogito ergo . . . get into a lot of arguments
--- GOMail v1.2 [92-0255]
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Hot Beef & Cheese
Date: 08 Dec 93 03:58:00
--------
EID:efec 1b881f40
MSGID: 1:100/4 86056801
FR> I was just curious about what I thought of as "woman haters club"
FR> being talked about somewhat. That would be an interesting FidoNet
FR> forum -- "Woman Haters Club." We would need a good moderator.
FR> We could vocally whine and complain about how fustraiting and annoying
FR> women are and secretly lust after their tight bodies.
Actually, I tried to kill the original post & replace it but we've
been having some problems with "zombie messages" on the local feed
here. Oh well, I'll reply...
I'll moderate!!! I'm not the LEAST bit biased!!
I can't honestly say that I hate women though. But I have nothing
but contempt for enforced stupidity and media brainwashing. Did you
read my post re: the detrimental effect of only stupid men being
selected for breeding? That goes against nature, and is a "deliberate
storing up of miseries for future generations".
FR> I think we are. The _perception_ is that women will cling to bad boys
FR> and give "mister nice guy" a miss. That's not been a problem for
FR> myself as I'm quite bad. Just ask Santa.
I guess it's different over there. My perception is that the magnetic
Gauss feild by which a woman clings to a gut (Freudian "slip of the
keyboard" there for real. The word here ^^^ was supposed to be "GUY".)
increases by a factor of 2X^2 for every point that his intelligence
quotient drops. And talk about WIND CHILL factors in THIS town...
FR> "Attack?" Please; really it's not an attack. Most people _must_
FR> acknowledge facts when they see them.
The question is, where do they go from there? I've seen people
who were intelligent get "fundy brainwashed", and literally split
their personalities up into the believer side and the logical side.
This happened to a friend of mine from high school - an honor role
student specializing in math & science. Well, since he was brainious,
he never got any dates. Although I don't look at men, I couldn't see
anything physically wrong with him, he HAD MONEY (!!), but he I guess
he just wasn't into the "game" .
Anyway, as things transpired, he ended up hooking up with this porcine
BEAST - I mean she makes the little surprizes you find hiding in the
bathrooms of DYSENTARY villages look good! Imagine a burrito turd
wearing coke-bottle glases. We're talking the "Zero Population Growth
Foundation Poster Child" here. Sound good so far?
Don't answer yet!... you also get a FREE BRAINWASHING by CRUDE
RIGHT-WING SOUTHERN BAPTISTS if you marry her now!!!!
He DID, they're BOTH miserable. She has attempted suicide between
a dozen & a half & twenty times (seriously). He just shlumps
around... just a bunch of carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen left over
and cruising along like a convertible thats just run under a semi
trailer...
Where's all this "happiness" Jesus' "LOVE" was supposed to bring them?
<<>>
FR> Most Christians must recognize
FR> evolution as fact even as they suspend thought about their deities.
But you don't really know that because you're not fundy brainwashed.
And neither am I.
Thank Star Goat for that.
... Good thing about fundies: They're biodegradable.
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Comrade Fredric
Sub: Embryo Cloning
Date: 08 Dec 93 04:52:00
--------
EID:4efb 1b882680
MSGID: 1:100/4 86056802
CF> Today a populace has to exist with other nations which don't feel the
CF> need to keep their own populace ignorant. I may be entirely wrong but
CF> how can a nation compete successfully with others if they're
CF> scientifically ignorant while the competition is not?
You're entirely right on this one. Keeping the populace ignorant
might be OK for short-term profits, but will ultimately be the
undoing of that nation. Did you know that a substantial percentage
(something like 20%) of U.S. college students can't even find
MEXICO on the globe? I shit you not I heard it on the news. I
don't think it's something they'd lie about, unless the real stats
were 35% or something.
Is it any wonder why the U.S. is getting economically buried?
... Planeload of fundies: Fossils in the stratosphere.
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Ron's Rectal Belching
Date: 09 Dec 93 04:27:00
--------
EID:c6e0 1b892360
MSGID: 1:100/4 860662DA
GG> I don't "blindly follow" ANYONE, bucko - let's get that
GG> straight
GG> up front, OK?
RS> On the contrary you 1) either blindly follow the ways of this world
Oh cheesus crust ron.
Everything about you smacks of presumptuousness. You truly DO
have diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain. You need
a SHITBAG everytime you post. I'm not even going to go on arguing
about carbon dating - you're obviously too stupid to understand things
like the properties of nuclear reactions. You can go to your fundy
masters and say another HolySmoker got sick of arguing with you, OK?
You know enough about me to say that I blindly follow, huh? Maybe
if you would bother having those butthairs & dingleberrys extracted
from your mouth people would be able to understand what you're trying
to say. You wouldn't know shit from applebutter.
RS> or 2) rebellious follow the ways of this world....for God has made
RS> Himself evident to all men at some poinit in their life.
Present your evidence, restate as opinion, or retract your rectal
belchage.
Or at least try to keep your deleriums to yourself, please.
GG> Dating by the radioactive decay of common substances is a
GG> tried & true
GG> method - far from the fecal esoterica of a 2,000 year old book
GG> of
GG> abstinence.
RS> Sigh.....this is the method. I DID NOT ASK FOR THE METHOD. If I
RS> wanted that any 7th grade science book will tell me that. I wanted
RS> procedure.
I DOUBT IF YOU'VE _ E V E R _ READ A 7th GRADE SCIENCE BOOK!!!!!!!!!
GG> I KNOW you hate science.
RS> It's not science I hate...it's the morons who slant science.
Look in the miror, you festering retard.
RS> We all have the same set of evidence. The way it is read determines
RS> the answer.
You said it!!!!!
RS> Some read things into science that simply aren't there.
RS> Tehy call it theorizing.
You're such a funny little fundy. I'm trying to picture you in front
of a monitor, face and head brown & smeary from hiding it in the rectum
of your shit-splattered messiah. Words just don't describe ya,
Rongoloid!
Tell ya what - I'm gonna go ahead & send you some gift certificates
for DEPEND undergarments, OK?
RS> IHS!
I KNOW you Hump Sheep.
... FLUSH YOUR MOUTH, TOILET-FACE!
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Erin Corliss
Sub: Religious Vomit
Date: 09 Dec 93 15:07:00
--------
EID:534a 1b8978e0
MSGID: 1:100/4 86060644
EC> really believe in God, it becomes pretty goddamned clear that most
EC> "Christians" are >>ATHEISTS<< inside, doesn't it?
Maybe, but whose to say WHAT goes on in the minds of those full of
sanctimonious self-deciet? I think it's probably just laziness - the
inability or unwillingness of one to think for one's self.
Humans in the USA are bred for obedience, docility, and stupidity -
rather like livestock. The idea of thinking for one's self scares
a lot of people
EC> Either that or they're crazy.
Not really... just "happy & dumb, happy & dumb, happy & dumb..."
... It is all based on faith. I am not required to provide evidence. -SB
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From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Temple of Set
Date: 09 Dec 93 18:08:00
--------
EID:4ec9 1b899100
MSGID: 1:100/4 86060645
-=> Quoting Steve Quarrella to Gary Glunz <=-
SQ> Hwaet, Gary!
Hmfygzt, Steve!!
SQ> 3 Dec 93, dixit Gary Glunz ad Steve Quarrella:
GG>> What I saw going on was a bunch of ass-kissing & licking, to
SQ>> Ah, religion. :)
GG> Yeah. I suggest the Fall/Winter issue of _The Black Flame_
GG> magazine, available from PO Box 499, Radio City Station, NY,
GG> NY. 10101. 6 bucks.
SQ> Can you give me the long and short of Gilmore's article?
I'll just go ahead and copy the article here to help lay to rest
the TOS' bullshit to all who might be reading this.
The following article appeared in Volume 4, #s 3&4 of THE BLACK FLAME:
PRETENDERS TO THE THRONE: REGARDING THE TEMPLE OF SET
By PETER H. GILMORE
Throughout the 28 years of the existence of the Church of Satan, the
organization has continued to expand while it's character has undergone
a number of carefully-planned developmental phases. In the process, we
have at times found it necessary to eject individuals who have acted in
ways that were not in keeping with our high standards of social
behavior. We have also had a small number of individuals freely depart
from us, finding our means too challenging to their false images of
personal superiority. Neither types are ever missed, as the true elite
of talented, highly-motivated, productive, creative, and above all,
independent individuals still find their way to us.
There have been those who would attempt to imitate us, but they usually
discover that our shoes are far too big to fill. Short-lived spinoffs
have included The Church of Satanic Brotherhood, Ordo Templi Satanas,
Order of the Black Ram, Church of Lucifer, The Orthodox Satanic Church
and so on. None of these has prospered or even affected the course of
Satanism, as they have quickly collapsed due to lack of energy or
direction. One group formed by ex-members of the Church of Satan which
has continued to exist, albiet as a small and fairly clandestine
"vanity" organization riding on the funds of it's "high priest" is the
Temple of Set. This bunch is significant only in that they continue to
try to ride upon the coattails of the Church of Satan, and indeed even
publicly claim to be the "successor to" and "custodian of" the Church
of Satan. You might have come across some advertisements or writing
by these Setians. Don't be fooled; they are not in any way associated
with the Church of Satan and their tales of schism are convenient
diversions. Let us examine from whence this group appeared and clear
away their false claims.
In 1974 C.E. the Church of Satan instituted its fourth phase of
development. The thrust of this phase was to reorient the members at
all levels to proceed on a far more independent course. Previously we
had issued charters for formal "Grottos" which were small congregations
comprised of Satanists in specific geographical regions. It had been
discovered that these formal Grottos led certain members to confine
their efforts at personal advancement to the realm of the Grottos alone,
rather than towards the success in the outside world which is of
paramount importance to Satanism. Certain members were far more
interested in trying to gain elevated rank yet were merely competing
in the Grotto's social arena. They neglected to develop their talents
and forge ahead. Many other members were strong-willed individualists
who did not mix well with other Satanists. Rather than functioning as
bases for the development of Satanic strategies, these groups often
became shields against true advancement, filled with huddlers who were
solely interested in internecine strife. Not everyone involved fit this
picture, but there were enough to make it obsolete as a system of growth.
The new phase stressed independent functioning, keeping individuals
separated to pursue their own goals. If Satanists used their initiative
to find their fellows, and they wished to informally create groups for
socialization and ritual, that was most acceptable. But the momentum
for the existence of these informal groups had to come from the social
compatibility of the constituent members, not geographical proximity.
This phase of isolation, which laid the groundwork for a much broader
base for Satanism as a movement (seen today especially in the commercial
acceptance of Satanic imagery in the popular Heavy Metal music business),
was upsetting to the pen-pal and "coffe klatch conclave" members, whom
it was basically designed to ease out of the way. Michael A. Aquino,
at that time the editor of _The Cloven Hoof_, had attained the IV* and
was injecting a strongly supernaturalist bent to the 'Hoof's articles.
Mr. Aquino had a history of creating documents which he claimed to have
transcribed form superhuman entities. These included the "Diabolicon"
(1970 C.E.), a series of statements from Satan, Beelzebub, Azazel,
Abaddon, Asmodeus, Astaroth, Belial, and Leviathan, as well as the
"Ninth Solstice Message" (1974 C.E.) which declared Anton LaVey a
"daimon".
Dr. LaVey who, then as now, had a firm grasp on the Church's tiller,
began to implement the phase which had been slowly evolving over the
previous two years. He had even outlined the basic concepts for this
formal phase during the summer of 1972 C.E. in a letter to Aquino,
stating that the "social Satanists" and their "limelight loving"
priests contribute nothing to Satanism as a movement, and that they
would fall by the wayside when they didn't recieve the attention they
sought by starting their own "churches". LaVey wrote that he had far
more respect for his "underground clergy" who were very productive in
the real world. Aquino did not accept this, especially Dr. LaVey's
awarding of priesthoods to non-esoteric, non-public achievers and thus
he would no longer be privy to even the small amount of information
regarding underground activities that had previously been given to him.
LaVey was determined that the status of Church members should reflect
their standing in the world outside of the organization. Degrees are
not reflective of simple book learning and esoteric knowledge, but the
actual application of Satanic principals towards personal advancement.
To this end, the Church would honor values given to it in kind with
degree recognition as would be deemed appropriate by Dr. LaVey. The
achievement of degrees via written tests was not to be abandoned at
this time, but this additional means of advancement was now open to
the "above-groundo" members. This was formalized by the new phase
in 1974 C.E. and outlined to Aquino in May, during one of his rare
personal meetings with Dr. LaVey.
Aquino did not protest this policy at the meeting and later claimed
this alternate route to advancement as a public reason to announce
a break with the Church of Satan, accusing Dr. LaVey of "selling"
degrees. He wrote letters to his handfull of pen-pal cronies,
fellow mystics who had also mourned the new phase, and they too
resigned to go off with Aquino and form their own group. Aquino
had wanted to start a "Second Church of Satan" but was thwarted by
copyright laws. Instead, recalling his readings of Egyptian history
and mythology, he claimed to have invoked Satan (in whom he literally
believed as an entity) and to have been answered instead by Set, the
"actual" Prince of Darkness who, through a series of realizations in
Aquino's mind, caused him to record as Set's answer a document which
he titled the "Book of Coming Forth By Night". This "supernatural
revelation" supposedly gives him the right to supercede the Church
of Satan. Doesn't that sound familiar?
Aquino would like you to believe that the "entire priesthood" of the
Church of Satan followed him in departing. This is untrue, especially
as there were many underground members, including priests and higher,
of whom he had no knowledge. The Church of Satan was at that time,
and continues to be, a large and highly stratified organization with
many discrete individuals placed in positions of power. As Orwell had
envisioned in his classic 1984, it is not an organization in the usual
sense as it is held together by an idea whose time has come, which is
indestructible. The departure of less than 30 members can hardly be
--- WM v3.10/93-0100
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--------
From: Gary Glunz
To: Tim Bennett
Sub: Re: Duck and cover.
Date: 10 Dec 93 03:58:00
--------
EID:5c44 1b8a1f40
MSGID: 1:100/4 860761D6
TB> Hey I live in Chattanooga Tn, thirty miles from where the
TB> Scopes/monkey trial took place. This place *IS* the asshole of the
TB> universe!
Hooollllddonnnaminute there...
I live in St. Louis.
If Chattanooga is the "asshole" of the universe, than St. Louis must
be the colostomy bag.
... "I write the songs that make the whole world...ROLF!!"
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Gary Glunz
To: Steve Quarella
Sub: Temple of Steers
Date: 10 Dec 93 04:05:00
--------
EID:1081 1b8a20a0
MSGID: 1:100/4 860761D7
I don't know what the hell happened to the last 2/3rds of my message
regarding the TOS, but it seemed to get chopped off.
If you want give me a mailing address so I can make a copy & send you
one.
Basically, the tos is a bunch of ass-kissing yuppies.
... They're not yuppies -- they're ethically challenged.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/93-0100
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Rick Vanderzwaag
Sub: Satanism 1/5
Date: 10 Dec 93 12:05:03
--------
EID:10ce aa0b1123
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ac0b6204
REPLY: 1:247/133 ab8c0728
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> Satanism:
> This is a very misused term. The majority of people
> that I have encountered
> associate the use of this term with Anton Szandor
> LaVey's Church of Satan,
> which has no theistic proclivities or beliefs
> whatsoever. Founded in 1966,
> the Church of Satan was a medium for studying the
> Black Arts which was
> predominately hedonistic and materialistic in nature.
> Satan, as a figure does
> not have any spiritual significance with this group,
> and its use in the name
> is mainly symbolic. The philosophical basis for much
> of LaVey's beliefs are
> to be found in the materialistic and hedonistic
> philosophy of Nietzsche,
> which looks to this life (as opposed to the after-
> life) and the creation of
> new values for the here and now.
Though this is sufficiently common that perhaps comment is unnecessary,
it wou
ld seem that LaVey misinterpreted Nietzsche. In particular, Nietzsche would
h
ave had little interest in or sympathy for anyone "studying the Black Arts."
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Hector Plasmic
Sub: Fundamentalists of all st
Date: 10 Dec 93 12:13:04
--------
EID:10ce aa0b1124
MSGID: 1:206/2720 ac0b6205
REPLY: Fidonet#1:380/16 0685ce00
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> AB>Other theories are needed to show that the tests have in fact
> AB>been adequately controlled.
> Philisophical masturbation aside (sorry, I prefer the
> real thing), you
> know that you test theories one at a time, Aaron. :-)
You test theories one at a time by assuming that other theories are true.
On
what basis do you make that assumption, if not the basis that those other
theo
ries have been confirmed?
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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--------
From: Ron Stringfellow
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Ron Eats Pi
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:39:00
--------
EID:1373 1b8a54e0
PID: ZZToss 1.0b15
Hello Dan,
DC> So, you cannot take the bible literally... So, who
DC> performs the interpretation? Just some guys who have
Who performs the interpretation when you call someone a turkey, or "bad",
¨
in fact who came up with alternative definitions for those terms?
The interpretation comes from an overall perspective of God. God is ¨consist
ent from Gen- Rev.
IHS!
Ron
--- SuperBBS 1.18 Beta-1 (Reg)
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--------
From: Ron Stringfellow
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: The Xtian fraud called Piltdown Man
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:44:00
--------
EID:bc1e 1b8a5580
PID: ZZToss 1.0b15
Hello John,
JM> JM>> Actually, I have! It's very simple. Pack the sample up
JM> with
JM> JM>> a description of where it was found, and either send it
JM> to the
JM> JM>> University of Calgary geology department or the Royal
JM> Tyrell
JM> JM>> Museum in Drumheller. Depending on the sample, a few
JM> weeks
JM> JM>> later the answer will arrive along with the bill...
JM> RS> Now, John, I have posted with you for over a year. I
JM> have not ever
JM> RS> caught you deliberately lying to me. Either you haven't or
JM> I'm not as
JM> RS> astute as I think I am. Perhaps both. :) I'll ask you
JM> again...Did you mean
JM> RS> to say that YOU have submitted material in to be
JM> dated...and are you
JM> RS> telling me that is ALL that you had to do?
JM> This isn't some big mystery or conspiracy or anything, Ron.
JM> Science and the
JM> benefits of scientific research are available to everybody, at
JM> least here in
JM> Canada. The University of Calgary has one of the finest
JM> geological research
JM> labs in the country due to the heavy demands of the oil
JM> industry here. They
JM> charge a fee depending on the complexity of the testing and the
JM> purpose. There
JM> are a lot of private labs and free-lancers around who'll do it
JM> too, but of
JM> course, the price is higher. This is the hub of the Canadian
JM> oil industry and
JM> almost every kid here knows where the oil came from. One of the
JM> ways they find
JM> it is to analyse the core samples the wells bring up. Accuracy
JM> is fairly
JM> important when companies are pouring millions of dollars into
JM> the holes.
JM> If it's a paleontological sample the Royal Tyrell museum an
JM> hour's drive
JM> from here is well-equipped for that. It's one of the finest
JM> dinosaur museums
JM> and research facilities in the world and its scientists publish
JM> in technical
JM> journals regularly as well as participate in projects the world
JM> over. When I
JM> was a kid wandering Horseshoe Canyon just west of Drumheller
JM> finding "dinosaur
JM> bones" was a regular game for my friends and I. Even at 10
JM> years of age we were able to recognize various fossils and
JM> where to find them. Pity you never had the opportunity...
While I enjoyed the tour and the trek back to childhood you did not answer
¨the question John.......
the question is......
JM> again...Did you mean
JM> RS> to say that YOU have submitted material in to be
JM> dated...and are you
JM> RS> telling me that is ALL that you had to do?
Please don't take me back through "it is a wonderful life"
Just answer the question...truthfully.
IHS!
Ron
--- SuperBBS 1.18 Beta-1 (Reg)
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--------
From: Ron Stringfellow
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Marty Leipzig's generous but doomed attempt to inform you
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:48:00
--------
EID:1236 1b8a5600
PID: ZZToss 1.0b15
Hello freedy,
FR> rs> What Mr Lipscinc did was to slide casually by the issue. He
FR> rs> knows and has known for weeks now, I already know
FR> methods...
FR> Well, no, actually. You don't. You think that the age of the
FR> Earth is less than 10,000 years so it's hardly a surprise that
I have NEVER stated this nor have I ever believed it.
IHS!
Ron
--- SuperBBS 1.18 Beta-1 (Reg)
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--------
From: Ron Stringfellow
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Givin' Ron just enough rope...
Date: 10 Dec 93 10:54:00
--------
EID:9ba0 1b8a56c0
PID: ZZToss 1.0b15
Hello lipscinc,
ML> RS> Obviously you don't know, or just aren't gutsy enough to
ML> post it.
ML> RS> Which, btw, doesn't surprise me. I've told this echo for a
ML> long time
ML> RS> what you really are.
ML> You lack the capacity to understand. All you ever offer is
ML> lies, misinformation and paranoic ravings. I don't have to
I'm not the one with the big trap theory.....
ML> ML> RS> Or have you read that far in the book, lad?
ML> ML> I'll "lad" you one, you pernicious whelp. Let's put
ML> RS> resulting to threats lipscinc???? tsk...tsk... quite
ML> unbecoming an
ML> RS> "intellectual". Har!
ML> Ron. This may destroy whatever little ego you have, but I
ML> would
ML> never resort to threats, especially to you.
Better read your post again "better" Naaa, go ahead with the damage ¨contro
l.
ML> ML> to your deference Ronzo; at least I have the ability
ML> to
ML> ML> utilize books to
ML> ML> increase knowledge. The only use they hold for you is
ML> RS> So you admit that you are getting this information out of
ML> the book?
(In a futher attempt at damage control)
ML> fizzling
ML> mental caliber to misrepresent what I said. I said that
ML> unlike
ML> you, I possess the acumen to glean information from books;
ML> not
ML> that I was doing so in this case. The only thing that you
ML> could
Uh-huh, that's what we can tell by your posting. You know (scratching head)
¨for intellectuals one would think that you, lipscinc would know how to
phras
e ¨your thoughts "better" and that godling would know how to spell. How
is it
¨that neither of you have mastered these elementary talents ? Did you get
thos
e ¨degrees from Acme?
IHS!
Ron
--- SuperBBS 1.18 Beta-1 (Reg)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Christian Soldier
Sub: Faith In God
Date: 09 Dec 93 03:17:00
--------
EID:890f 1b891a20
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab823e99
REPLY: 1:123/67 2d03e56c
PID: FM 2.02
> CS> Even the most ardent non-believers will concede that the
> > Christian
> CS> message, as far as providing guidelines for living one's life,
is
> > most
> CS> consistent with proper and successful social interaction.
> SS> Fallacy of irrelevant conclusion.
Well, this particular ardent non-believer concedes no such thing, and in
fact
I find the christian message to be just as consistent with improper and
failed
social interaction.
> --My note: This is archive material
> ********************************
> ***************************************
> It is not irrelevant, because it is evidence of the validity of
> the Christian faith. The fact that Christians seem to be more
> caring, more socially acceptable, and lead successful lives, could
> well be a manifestation of God working in their life.
> ********************************
> ***************************************
They sure as fuck don't seem that way to me, and I _have_ known a few in
my ti
me. My experience is that, by and large, they only care for those of their
ow
n race and social class, and preferentially members of their religion, they
ar
e socially acceptable only in a society that has for a long time taken for
gra
nted their set of values, and are no more or less successful than any other
so
cially equivalent group.
Furthermore, of all the self-identified christians I have known (and I have
kn
own many) I have known exactly one that I could say manifests real christian
v
alues in his life, and the rest apparently an even split between people
who ha
lf-assedly try to live up to the example set by jesus and the other hald
of li
ars, pigs and thieves who use christianity as an excuse to rape, pillage,
and
burn, or hide behind it like George Bush wrapping himself in an American
flag.
> SS> Please provide evidence of one miracle.
> Extreme order of our universe.
Phhhhhhwuaghahahahahahahahahah!
Ohh, please, HELP! I've fallen and I can't reach my drink.....
Whew! Damn near got a hernia from ROFLing at THAT one.
Let me quote to you from MY book of theistic bullshit:
PRINCIPIA DISCORDIA, page -2-
THE REVELATION
"Gentlemen," he said, "why does Pickering's Moon go about in reverse orbit
? Gentlemen, there are nipples on your chests; do you give milk? And what,
p
ray tell, Gentlemen, is to be done about Heisenberg's Law?" He paused.
"SOME
BODY HAD TO PUT ALL OF THIS CONFUSION HERE!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRINCIPIA DISCORDIA, page 42
CONVENTIONAL CHAOS
GREYFACE
In the year 1166 B.C., a malcontented hunchbrain by the name of Greyface,
got
it into his head that the universe was as humorless as he, and he began
to tea
ch that play was sinful because it contradicted the ways of Serious Order.
"L
ook at all the order about you," he said. And from that, he deluded honest
me
n to believe that reality was a straightjacket [sic] affair and not the
happy
romance as men had known it.
It is not presently understood why men were so gullible at that particular
tim
e, for absolutely no one thought to observe all the _disorder_ around them
and
conclude just the opposite. But anyway, Greyface and his followers took
the
game of playing at life more seriously than they took life itself and were
kno
wn even to destroy other living beings whose ways of life differed from
their
own.
The unfortunate result of this is that mankind has since been suffering
from a
psychological and spiritual imbalance. Imbalance causes frustration, and
fru
stration causes fear. And fear makes a bad trip. Man has been on a bad
trip
for a long time now.
It is called THE CURSE OF GREYFACE.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you see, Private, the alleged "extreme order of the universe" is purely
fic
tional, an illusion dependent on the prejudice of the observer. You can
just
as easily perceive the extreme disorder of the universe if you were so incline
d.
And you claim that as evidence of miracles? Excuse me while I giggle chaotica
lly for a while longer....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 03:19:01
--------
EID:9dc5 1b891a60
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab823e9a
REPLY: 1:2617/117 aa954d87
PID: FM 2.02
> -----[ First Hector Plasmic Said: ]-----
>> A request for evidence of an outrageous claim for which no evidence has
>> ever been provided before (despite the claim being quite old) is hardly
>> "making judgements before knowing the circumstances." This copout
>> sounds very much like the typical fundy "respect me even though we both
>> know I'm full of crap and don't deserve it."
> -----[ My Reply: ]-----
> That's your opinion. You're taking your personal opinion as
> undisprovable and demanding her to give proof which she has no need
> to give. You ruled out her beliefs as "bullshit" until she could
> properly prove her point, and otherwise, is just full of shit.
> I ask you, prove your beliefs.
You're new in here, aren't you?
This should be good....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 03:28:02
--------
EID:1bd6 1b891b80
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab823e9b
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2d024480
PID: FM 2.02
> And I guess you won't oppose those who would challenge your beliefs
> as you "share" them. After all, that is what this echo is for.
Just don't tell Mr. Sereduick; he thinks it's a place for respecting other
peo
ples BS.
Let's just have a seat over in the corner there and watch Mr Plasmic pull
him
apart, heh heh.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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6)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: David Rice
Sub: You need God [like a hole in the head]
Date: 09 Dec 93 03:50:03
--------
EID:5cf6 1b891e40
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab823e9c
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d0512b2
PID: FM 2.02
> SR> inside. He has enough depth to know that there is much more
> SR> to a woman than a good fuck.
> That's true--- there is also cooking and cleaning. protecting private parts with hands>
Are you _sure_ that your appearance is the real reason for your enforced
celib
acy?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Virgin Births
Date: 09 Dec 93 15:11:01
--------
EID:6c78 1b897960
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ab8d53d5
REPLY: 1:102/890@FidoNet aa8d260c
PID: FM 2.02
> spreading superstitious nonsense -- many Wiccans and Pagans don't
> even believe in _anything_ supernatural. More importantly, there is
> no "gods word" to spread and to use as an excuse to kill.
I remember reading in some echo or other where a pagan person said, "I don't
b
elieve in supernatural powers, but I do believe in super powers in nature."
I
interpret this as meaning that they regarded their deities not in the christi
an or other theist paradigm of a superbeing that exists separate from nature,
but as an expression of nature itself.
Was just wondering what you would make of this.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: HalfLife 8PM to 11AM at 510-886-6180 (1:215/606)
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From: jonny vee
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 10 Dec 93 01:42:00
--------
EID:90a3 1b8a0d40
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ac015287
PID: FM 2.02
> If a requirement of evolution is chance and randomocity in natural
> selection, I have trouble understanding all the deaths among humans
> ordered by man himself, particularly since the ordered deaths are
> usually the most fit among the population. Man always kills its 1-As
> and preserves its 4-Fs. My view of natural selection and survival of
> the fittest would have all sick and weak go to fight wars and have no
We send our best warriors out in order to win the wars. If, for instance,
we
had gone against Hitler with our 4Fs, it is likely that we would shortly
there
after have been subject to another kind of selective breeding -- to the
Nazi s
tandard.
> medical programs that were not based on preserving good health. The
Would you prefer to go back to the days when the average life span of a
human
was 30 to 40 years? Does the phrase "nasty, brutish, and short" sound familia
r?
> early neanderthal man left the weaklings to die on the wayside, I
> have
> heard. Why did we change? And in the process, do we still have
Neanderthal Man died out, Mr Harris, and left behind no progeny. We are
the d
escendents of Cro-Magnon Man, or perhaps I should say, we are the Cro-Magnon.
> natural
> selection and survival of the fittest? If not, do we still have
> evolution?
I think you could say that we have some kind of evolution still, except
that n
ow that evolution is under our control. It would seem that our current
course
selects for those who are more intelligent and/or those more capable of
accum
ulating wealth.
If we manage to survive the current period, which appears to me to be the
earl
y adolescence of our species (or is it really the Terrible Twos? Matter
of per
spective, I suppose), anyway, if we survive and continue to develop our
techno
logy, evolution will become irrelevant for humanity and probably for the
rest
of the biosphere as well. The guiding hand that some see in evolution today
w
ill then exist for real as we engineer lifeforms tailored to our specific
need
s -- and whims. Between genetic engineering, bionics, and nanotechnology,
I r
eckon that the only limitation on what we become both individually and as
grou
ps will be the societal choices and restraints we choose. As indicated
by a t
hread that briefly crossed this echo last week, some people are very much
afra
id of cloning (though we already have human clones among us -- ask the Rices),
thinking that it carries deep ethical problems. Some, on the other hand,
can
't wait. Personally, I wouldn't mind having a few gigs of extra ROM in
my sku
ll, and I think it would be fun to have a prehensile tail and maybe be eight
f
eet tall and bulletproof.
Evolution explains how we developed up to now, but technology will determine
h
ow we develop in future.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Ethics" means money, "Morals" means sex. (1:215/606)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 10 Dec 93 02:43:01
--------
EID:5fe2 1b8a1560
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ac015288
PID: FM 2.02
> a source of energy. That is not my judgment. In 1976 or '77, Dr.
> Howard Johnson of Blackburg Polytechnic Institute, on his sixth
> appearance before the Patent Appeals Court, was granted a patent
I don't mean to be inordinately aggressive, but I must say I have never
heard
of Blackburg Polytechnical. Do you happen to have an address for them,
and/or
for Dr Johnson?
> Since I had no hypothesis or theory or paradigm of any sort, I have
> never been able to discern how it is possible to have done what was
> in
> the patent application. Since it happened overnight, and since my
> concept of evolution is that nothing happens overnight within the
> tenets
> of evolution, then I could not ascribe the feat to evolution.
I really don't understand how the development of an invention has anything
at
all to do with evolution, which describes the development of species.
> Having a philosophical concept of God in my head for all of my 65
> years,
> and not being able to logically alot credit for this at any other
> door,
> I chose to put it on my philosophical God! My Jewish relatives will
> not
> put up with it, so I had no other choice.
There is always the choice of admitting that you do not have an answer.
Ascrib
ing an unexplained phenomenon to a deity merely because you have no other
expl
anation handy is merely an indication of where you stopped seeking a rational
explanation, and is not far removed from attributing the rumble of thunder
to
Thor's hammer.
Personally, if I believed in a god (as I actually did, once upon a time),
I wo
uld consider the habit of saying, "Goddoneit" every time one is at a loss
for
explanations to be an insult to the deity, and a waste of the intellectual
po
wer S/He had given me. But that's just my personal opinion, and not stated
as
fact (grin).
> There are two elements to my entire message that are subject to being
> disproven. (I have learned one can only disprove anything.) The
> matter
> of making the mass or weight climb an incline, or many inclines for
> that
> matter, without the use of anything but magnets, is being
> investigated
> by others who have accepted a challenge I posted earlier in a kind
> effort to clear up this problem for me. They, like yourself, will
> not
> believe until they see it for themselves and reproduce it under their
> own conditions. They have been kind enough to also indicate a
> willingness to publish their findings. I cannot ask for any more
> since
> that is the procedure I have been told is necessary in any scientific
> endeavor.
I would be delighted to see the demonstration of a previously unknown use
of m
agnetism, but I can't for the life of me see how that has any connection
whats
oever to evolution, evidence of god, or anything else that is a fit topic
for
discussion in the HOLYSMOKE echo.
It is clear to me that either I am misunderstanding you, or one of us is
eithe
r crazy or stupid. Maybe if you can give me some more information, we could
d
etermine which of those possibilities is true.
First, a description of your invention would be useful. If I understand
corre
ctly that you said you had applied for a patent, then such a description
would
have been part of your application. I can give you a mailing address to
send
it to if you should choose to oblige me.
Second, an explanation of how this invention is relevant to the discussion
of
whether or not there is a god. Remember, not being able to lay credit at
any
other door is not an argument for deity, its an admission of ignorance.
> Having just finished "The Blind Watchmaker," by Richard Dawkins, an
> Oxford Zoologist who is reputed to be one of the most influential
> figures in evolutionary science, I now realize why there seems to be
> such venom directed to those who do not believe in evolution. "It is
> absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to
> believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or
> wicked, but I'd rather not consider that)." If I had read his words
> prior to first coming on this echo, I would have understood what is
> referred to a banter is meant to hurt.
Ignorance is not such a bad charge to cop to; I'll certainly admit that
I am i
gnorant of many things. Ignorance, however, is easily cured by education.
St
upidity or insanity, of course, will interfere with the process of education,
and may explain the persistent ignorance of someone like, for instance,
Ron St
ringfellow, and thus the low esteem in which others hold him.
It is generally considered poor form to publicly ridicule someone who is,
thro
ugh no fault of his/her own, stupid or insane. Such people deserve compassion
and whatever treatment can be given to alleviate their condition as much
as p
ossible. The apparent condition of most religionists in this echo, though,
an
d particularly those who have earned the title of "fundie," is that they
are *
wilfully* ignorant. These are the people who have been exposed to the facts,
yet refuse to be educated because the facts contradict their cherished fantasi
es. It is their annoying variations on the theme of "IS NOT!!!" that make
the
m such a worthy target of invective, and if you ask me, they richly deserve
ev
ery bit of ridicule that they get.
> I have posted to Hector Plasmic, but I can solicit your help also.
> In
> view of the fact that all seem to feel I am ignorant, stupid or
> insane,
Please do not make the assumption that the opinion of Richard Dawkins is
the u
niversal feeling of "all".
> but will allow I am not totally wicked, I would like to know if there
> is
> any explanation for doing something without any hypothesis or theory
> or
> any plan whatsoever, and not even know what you are doing?
Yes. The glaringly obvious explanation is that you do not know what you
are d
oing, or at least do not _on_a_conscious_level_ know what you are doing.
The history of creative endeavor, in both the sciences and the arts, has
many
examples of thinkers who gave up on particularly thorny questions after
weeks
or months of concerted effort, only to have the answer (or at least a fresh
ap
proach) come to them in a dream. IF your invention is all you claim, and
IF t
he idea came to you suddenly and in complete form, "out of the blue" as
it wer
e, then it could be the result of mental activity operating at a subconscious
level of thought. This is certainly not unknown; indeed, it would put you
in
the company of Carl Jung, Richard Wagner, Isaac Newton, Wolfgang Pauli,
and th
e discoverer of the benzene ring (whose name escapes me, but the story
has it
that his dream of a snake swallowing its tail gave him the key to the molecul
ar structure).
Or it could just mean that you're either crazy or stupid (grin).
> As for Mr. Frederic Rice, he, too, does not seem to get my words
> correct. I did not say I made water run uphill. I stated that NASA
> spent taxpayer money to pay for an experiment where two Harvard
> Professors made water run uphill using magnetic forces. I did not do
> that! I have told him before, if he feels that is a worthless and
> stupid endeavor, he should tell it to NASA, not berate me for my
> "trivial" pursuits.
If you saw my two previous rants on the subject of preachers with claims
of "S
cientists Say...." I hope you will understand why I am asking you to provide
t
he names of the "two Harvard Professors" and a little bit more concrete
inform
ation regarding the project they were working on. At least your own source
fo
r the information would be helpful.
> Until I am convinced that I, all by myself, could have come up with
> the
> device in question, I will, of necessity, be compelled to acribe the
> feat to the powers of a God that I envision. It is my privilege to
> do
> so and yours to disagree. Personal attacks are nothing to me if I am
> right and should be no bother to anyone else. I would love to
> believe I
> can do all sorts of things without any plan or concept or theory. It
> would make me one hell of a unique individual.
As per my references above to various scientists, it would not make you
all th
at unique, just one of the more extreme examples.
Just don't make any gnurrs come from the woodwork out.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Some say he is a holy man. Others say he is a shithead." (1:215/6
06)
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Amy Anderson-Coffin
Sub: Scripture
Date: 10 Dec 93 02:46:02
--------
EID:05d4 1b8a15c0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ac015289
REPLY: 1:154/40.2 A929E50E
PID: FM 2.02
> I think it's weird that I THOUGHT I had access to history and
> literature to provide tradition if I wanted it, not to mention
> family. Guess I was wrong...
Just one more example of how empty and devoid of "true" love, "true" thankfuln
ess and "true" everything else we non-christians are.
(giggle)
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Scotty, beam us aboard!" .... "Aye, Sir, will a 2x4 do?" (1:215/60
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From: jonny vee
To: Tim Bennett
Sub: baptism
Date: 10 Dec 93 03:03:03
--------
EID:34eb 1b8a1860
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ac01528a
PID: FM 2.02
> ... The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15 The Temple
> pillars
> ... were 35 cubits - 2 Chron 3:15
Just for the sake of being accurate (if not inerrant {grin}), are thes both
re
ferences to the same Temple? I seem to recall something about the Jews
return
ing from captivity in Babylon and rebuilding a new Temple on the ruins of
the
old one....
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "Reality is the leading cause of stress..." - Jane Wagner (1:215/60
6)
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From: jonny vee
To: Stewart Harris
Sub: Why do we care?!?
Date: 10 Dec 93 03:32:04
--------
EID:6332 1b8a1c00
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ac031db2
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d044311
PID: FM 2.02
SH> Just as a matter of curiosity, is there anything in the dogma of
SH> evolutionary theory which allows for any physical process to
SH> dramatically improve overnight!
SH> (I don't end sentences with prepositions, but that's on
Maybe not, but you don't seem to see anything wrong with ending a question
wit
h an exclamation point. And this in a post where you smugly asked the kettle
what color it called the pot! How ironic.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "The reverse side also has a reverse side" --Jap. proverb (1:215/60
6)
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From: jonny vee
To: James Conwell
Sub: Some great news items
Date: 10 Dec 93 03:37:05
--------
EID:49da 1b8a1ca0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ac031db3
REPLY: 1:106/7512 e98c6465
PID: FM 2.02
> SE> The Jesus referred to in the christian bible's new testament so
> SE> believed and
> SE> prophesied that such a day would be within the lifetime of all those
> SE> who
> SE> were with him at the time that he made the prophecy. He was wrong
...
> SE> so are
> SE> you.
> Jesus said no such thing.
How would you know? Either of you?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "The reverse side also has a reverse side" --Jap. proverb (1:215/60
6)
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From: jonny vee
To: James Conwell
Sub: Divine Conception
Date: 10 Dec 93 03:40:06
--------
EID:ba01 1b8a1d00
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido ac031db4
REPLY: 1:106/7512 b005fec0
PID: FM 2.02
> ZC> Now, Adam and Eve started this whole mess called the human race,
> ZC> right?
> ZC>
> ZC> So they had two sons. Who'd the surviving son screw?
> According to the Bible, Adam and Eve had numerous sons and daughters.
Does this mean you are going on record with the claim that all humans are
the
product of incest among the children of Adam and Eve?
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: "The reverse side also has a reverse side" --Jap. proverb (1:215/60
6)
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From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: better than memory
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:15:00
--------
EID:ba58 1b89a1e0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a624e4
RC >"Life has energy." That sounds like _life_ to me, not
RC >sentience.
Grin... okay, let's say I disagree with my own original post. *I* know
what I
¨ meant, but since I often answer my mail prior to 8am, I sometimes don't
say¨
exactly what I mean. Perhaps I shan't read this conference until afternoons¨
from now on. I retract my original statement and beg forgiveness.
Can we continue along on the sentience thread? That's the thing I was trying
to get at, in any case...
Oh, since you have the original post here, I'd like to clear something up.
I
never said that "soul" was provable via physics. What I said was:
RC >| Life has energy. Energy doesn't just disappear.
RC >|
RC >| When you die, it doesn't just disappear... that'd be
RC >| contrary to physics!
See? I wasn't trying to say that disbelief in "soul" was contrary to physics.
¨ Just the disappearing of energy. I repeat again, energy doesn't just¨
disap
pear... it changes form, metamorphizes... whatever. But it doesn't cease¨
to
exist.
Thanks,
Allyson
---
* Origin: COVENSTEAD - (604)435-8990 - Vancouver's Occult Link! (1:153/826)
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From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: conscious animals
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:19:00
--------
EID:d97b 1b89a260
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a625e0
RC >Are you pretending to know everything, or have you failed
RC >(yet again) to
RC >engage your brain before setting your fingers loose with
RC >such claims?
Sigh... I think you know exactly what I mean. Life has many forms around
the
world. Everything from bacteria to humans to sperm whales. Sentience is¨
(se
emingly, at least,) less frequently found. Fair enough?
RC >No, but they are certainly more intelligent than a tree or
RC >bacterial
RC >culture. You asked about consciousness. Apes _are_
RC >conscious.
No, I asked about "that thing which makes us human." I also called it "soul".
¨ I think you're more than aware of what I mean, whether you believe in
it or¨
not. You seem to be avoiding my points.
RC >Yes? They all seem conscious of their environments, too, to
RC >various
RC >degrees. Intelligence is relative, not the same for every
RC >animal.
But they don't do the things humans do: create symbols to recreate their¨
envi
ronment in small ways (writing, mathematics, paintings, etc.). What word
would you rather I use, since you're ignoring the ones I use, seemingly
on¨ pu
rpose? I had thought I'd been clear what I meant by "soul".
Allyson
---
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--------
From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: souls and superstition
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:21:00
--------
EID:70f1 1b89a2a0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a62666
RC >No, that's not all you are saying, forgetful one - you said
RC >that:
RC > A>> Life has energy. Energy doesn't just disappear. That which
etc.
Yes, and I did just retract it. It wasn't what I meant. I apologize.
RC > A> I'm not claiming you're wrong. I'm not claiming I'm right.
RC >You _are_ claiming (about a "soul") that:
RC > A>> When you die, it doesn't just disappear... that'd be contrary
Nope, see my previous message. I was claiming that about the ENERGY, by¨
what
ever name you call it. It can be heat, electrical... And since I quoted
the whole thing in the last message (as did you), then I can't see how you¨
co
uld misinterpret it.
RC >Or do you retract that assertion now as unsupportable?
Not at all. Shall I get a physics textbook and show you that energy doesn't¨
disappear?
RC >You really didn't think you could just pretend that you
RC >never typed
RC >these ridiculous claims here in the echo - did you?
Nope. But I didn't type what you said I did, and you proved it yourself!
Allyson
---
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--------
From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Our first Wiccan Fundy
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:33:00
--------
EID:96a2 1b89a420
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a6292e
RC >Stick with the evidence, and how can you go wrong? As for
RC >your doing
RC >certain things (see above) would that include a blow job?
There is no objective evidence for what I believe. I thought I'd already
said
¨ that a dozen times.
As for the blow job, I only suck dick, not weenie.
RC >So state your reasons, already.
RC >Or do I have to wait until you meet me and suck my dick,
RC >first?
You never asked for my reasons before. You just made claims and went stoping
around .
I believe that Goddess is real in some form (I don't put a form on her,¨
altho
ugh I perceive her as a woman in various stages of life--Maid, Mother,¨
Crone)
. My reason for that belief is, objectively enough , that it¨ feels
rig
ht. Just as I assume that athiesm feels right for you, since the¨ disproof
of
God/dess has yet to be presented.
I believe that some soul or remnant of our intellect passes on after we
die.
My reason for this is that I've ... urk... how do you say this. I believe
it
because I've had several experiences with people I know are dead. I ask¨
you
in all sincerity not to attack this story. You can attack the¨ belief all
you
want, but this is precious. I don't even know why I'm¨ sharing it here,
exce
pt that I feel like I should. When my aunt died, she¨ apparently left me
noth
ing. All her stuff had been boxed and put away... I¨ had a visit from
her on
e night, just before they dropped off the last of the¨ boxes to various
people
and organizations. She told me of a pair of earrings
and a ring, of which I had no previous knowledge (she didn't wear jewelry
all
that often) in a certain box. My parents thought I was nuts, but I looked.¨
T
hey swore there was no jewelry in there, but bingo, there it was. Now,
I¨ kno
w this isn't proof, objectively. But to me, it was awfully strong. And¨
stil
l is. I have also had contact with a young boy who died at age 8, and¨
some o
thers I'm not at liberty to speak about. In any case, I think you can¨
see wh
y I believe as I do. Perhaps I'm deluded, but for 'co-incidence', my¨ auntie
sure pulled a good one .
RC > A> I believe that that part is sentient, although not as we are sentient
RC > A> right now.
RC >So state your reasons, already.
See the above. I think that explains why I believe as I do.
RC > 1. Make superstitious claims,
Yup. That I've asked no one else to believe. Mind you, I've had plenty
of¨ a
thiestic conversion attemps laid on me... moreso from the fundy athiests
than¨
from any Christians.
RC > 2. Assert that you have evidence (reasons) for these
RC >claims, and
Nope, never said I had evidence. I don't. I have experiences which are¨
subj
ective. Some of which I've shared with other people (which is, in fact,¨
why
I cannot share them in here).
RC > 3. Babble without ever touching upon any evidence.
It's difficult to present evidence for something that is beyond evidence.¨
It'
s like asking for evidence of the non-existance of God/dess. It doesn't¨
exis
t!
Allyson
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From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Outlaw it!
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:39:00
--------
EID:9b6b 1b89a4e0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a62a72
RC > A> Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I defend my (and your) right to believe
RC > A> as you will, so long as you're not murdering anyone
RC >Murderers have the right to believe as they wish, too.
RC >After all, it's
RC >not their _beliefs_ that get them arrested, but their
RC >actions.
This is true. Thank you for pointing that out.
RC >It's not your beliefs, Allyson, but your action of posting
RC >them as fact.
Show me where I've posted my personal, subjective beliefs as fact. Show
me¨ o
ne post. I continue to challenge everyone with that, but I haven't got¨
anyth
ing back ('cept that one message where I said "life" instead of "soul"...¨
whi
ch I have already retracted and apologized for).
RC >Make it illegal?
RC >I prefer Marilyn Burge's perspective on that - she would
RC >defend the right
RC >of religious people to raise their children as they see fit.
Sigh... part of me wants to agree with this, and part of me wants to throw
up.
¨ I've seen so many kids fucked up beyond repair because of religious parents¨
shoving it down the kid's throat. And I mean religious all-around: Wiccans,¨
Christians, Jews, Muslims...
I just think that if we'd let them look around a bit, they might manage
to¨ gr
ow up a tad more normally. I'm not saying they can't practice if the *want*¨
to... but you shouldn't be able to force an underage kid to go to church
or¨ t
emple (or Circle!).
Also, do you defend the right of people who don't feed their kids as a¨
punish
ment for sin? It's their religious belief, remember... Or do you see¨
this t
he same was as the murderer example above? It's just that when it comes¨
unde
r a religious heading the child protection agencies can't do much!¨ Parents
ca
n withold lifesaving techniques because of "god." I cannot agree¨ with
it. I
t goes against everything *I* believe in. :(
Allyson
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From: Ariadne
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:44:00
--------
EID:c3bc 1b89a580
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a62b94
* On the first day of Yule, Marilyn Burge said to Steve Bedard:
MB >gospel-writers did not know Jesus personally, let alone know his¨ MB
>moth
er. And, even more important there is not one shred of evidence¨ MB >that
any
of them gave Jesus' mother a pelvic examination to determine¨ MB >her physica
l status prior to delivery of Jesus.
Steve, have you ever read (not seen, btw, but actually *read*) _The Last¨
Temp
tation of Christ_? It's an excellent book, very literary, a classic, and
rather true to the original Bible. Not to mention, I think it shows things
in
¨ a much more positive light. It attempts to explain, in fictional form,
the¨
writing of the Gospels.
Allyson
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From: Ariadne
To: Tim Bennett
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:46:00
--------
EID:0696 1b89a5c0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a62c20
TB > Regardless of what your (or her) 'belief' is, here if you
TB >make a statement
TB > you must be prepared to back it up with evidence.
TB >Extraordinary events /
TB > claims require extraordinary evidence.
Fine. Show me evidence that god doesn't exist. Show me evidence that the¨
Mu
tant Star Goat doesn't exist. Show me evidence that Ceia (sp?) doesn't¨
exist
.
Some things cannot be shown via evidence. Some things cannot be proved.
At¨
least at the point where we're at right now in scientific theory.
Allyson
---
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--------
From: Ariadne
To: Tim Bennett
Sub: Food for thought
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:48:00
--------
EID:d397 1b89a600
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a62c9a
TB > yet I simply deny the fact. Quite simply, there is NO
TB >higher power to
TB > deny.
You deny the fact that there's a god? Grin... I don't think that's *quite*¨
w
hat you meant to say. But in any case: prove it!
As Mr Curry has been saying to me, screaming "I believe! I believe!" doesn't¨
make it so .
Personally, I think it's fine to believe you're the top being in your¨ univers
e... it's probably true, for you!
Ally
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--------
From: Ariadne
To: Tim Bennett
Sub: Foolishness
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:52:00
--------
EID:2fc0 1b89a680
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a62d86
TB > Cu> Let's go on to evidence instead of proof. Can you answer a question
TB > Cu> about whether or not you have some evidence? If not, why not?
TB > I have remained rather quiet in here, just sort of reading
TB >along but I
TB > have seen this question posited to you on MANY occasions in
TB >one form or
TB > another. Not ONCE have you ever actually replied to the
TB >question directly.
Grin...
TB > Is it so hard to say "no"? Hell, a hurt pride is nothing.
TB >Then maybe, just
TB > maybe you could go on to something more productive.
The boy is observant! Mr. Curry is good at dodging such things on his end.¨
M
y favorite thing of his though, is that he won't accept "no" as an answer!¨
Wh
en you say you can't provide evidence, because such evidence doesn't exist,
he continues to rant on about it.
If it talks like a fundy, and walks like a fundy, and shouts "only my way
is¨
right" like a fundy, MUST be a fundy!
;)
Ally
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From: Ariadne
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Childish and evil game
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:54:00
--------
EID:7bbd 1b89a6c0
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a62e20
RC >Painting all atheists with this prejudice of yours is rather
RC >sick.
Painting all Wiccans, Christians, etc. with this prejudice of yours is rather
sick...
;-)
Ally
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From: Ariadne
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Virgin Birth
Date: 09 Dec 93 20:58:00
--------
EID:0ccb 1b89a740
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a62ede
REPLY: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bc7
DS >to say that there is no god, would I be forced to "prove" my
DS >statement? And how, pray tell, would I go about that? You
DS >are putting her in a position where she cannot realistically
DS >convey to you what her feelings are. In your mind, she will
DS >always be wrong, no matter if she says nothing or tries to
DS >explain.
You got it. It's a no-win situation. And he won't answer my questions
in¨ re
turn. He can't prove his situation either, yet presents it as fact. I¨
don't
see how athiest cow cookies is any different from Wiccan cookies.
Ally
---
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--------
From: Ariadne
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: She can handle it
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:03:00
--------
EID:88e5 1b89a860
PID: RA 1.11
MSGID: 1:153/826 52a63010
REPLY: 1:2617/117 ab8c3bca
DS >But verbally crucifying them on the spot is a totally
DS >different matter. Remember, atheists, pagans, and other
Besides, it's a horribly Christian thing to do, and since they're all¨ athiest
s, it seems rather funny from my end .
DS >different matter. Remember, atheists, pagans, and other
DS >"non-Judeo-Christian" religions were persecuted for a long
DS >time by people just as Hector, who felt it neccessary to
I don't feel persecuted at all. If I do, I can always leave. The door
swings
¨ both ways. I enjoy getting all caught up in these discussions. Among
other
¨ things, it makes *me* think about things. I always tell my students that¨
u
nthinking faith is useless. If they don't know *why* they believe in¨ somethi
ng, they're on precarious ground. Even if they can't put it in words¨ others
can understand, they need to understand within themselves. If they¨ want
to b
elieve evreything I say on faith, then I'll direct them to a church.
DS >badger someone like the gestapo rather than ask them and
DS >DISCUSS their believed occurences.
Really? Last time I checked, this was HOLYSMOKE, not SPIRITUAL .
If¨ y
ou want to have a discussion, meet me there or on one of the pagan networks¨
<
grin>. If you wanna grill other people (although I do sort of draw the
line
at outright harrasment), continue on in here .
DS >It is not our right to¨ DS >make judgements on other people.
Sure it is. The human condition insists that we constantly make judgements
on
¨ other people. It's how we exist.
Ally
---
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--------
From: Michael Malone
To: All
Sub: Titalation and Christianity
Date: 08 Dec 93 22:53:02
--------
EID:639e 1b88b6a0
MSGID: 1:114/7.0 d06a7320
Hello All,
I have a theory that I would like to hash over with the participants of
this e
cho and get your take on my view.
I have noticed that lately there has been widespread interest in satanism,
sat
anic ritual abuse, masturbation, deviant sexual behavior, and other topics
in
this vein. This interest seems to mainly be on the part of fundamentalist
chr
istians. There seems to be a great out cry that this behavior must be stopped
at all costs and often is touted as the "problem" with america today.
Books like Bob Larson's fiction (alleged to be based on fact) _Abadon_,
it's p
redecessor _Dead Air_, Mike Warnke's _Satan Seller_, to name a couple deal
wit
h subjects that if they were taken out of the christian bookstore, would
go ri
ght on the bookshelves next to Al Golstien's latest copy of _Screw_ magazine.
It is my contention that the christian's are using this material as pornograph
y and is used to titillate there dull and normal lives.
What are your thoughts on this?
Michael
--- timEd-B9
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: America
Date: 10 Dec 93 00:59:00
--------
EID:6b04 1b8a0760
MSGID: 1:247/133 ac81e052
>I'll make it the top of my list. There is a _huge_ book shop in
>Utrecht, I hear, though have never gone to. And, no, I've not
>heard of this particular work. As a rule, I dislike books which
>could be considered "conspiracy theories." If it's an
>after-market censor, however, the book is granted a measure of
>validity in my eyes. (Rushdie aside, of course; that was a
>typically religious insanity.)
No, it is not a book, it is a video and it covers the uncovering of mass
grave
s in Panama (I believe that they discovered about 4 thousand or so bodies,
of
which the US was directly repsonsible for) and the later US attempts to
cover
this up. Ah, how the mighty have fallen!
>Yet along with the violations of national soverignity, the United
>States also polices the world in other ways which _are_ positive.
This is questionable. I do not believe that a differentiation in political
or
religious ideology is "grounds" for the bombing of a city or town. In Vietnam,
the US lured the North Veitnamese into sinking one of their ships, after
the
mining of their harbour by the CIA. In Iraq, the US government was told
two da
ys before the invasion of Kuwait, that Iraq had such plans. James Baker,
who w
as in Geneva at the time, was informed, and the response was that the US
would
not become involved in regional terrirtorial disputes, but would protect
thei
r interests (oil). After that, the bullshit campain of propaganda took over,
a
nd Bush made sure that there would be a fight in one way or another. There
is
also a certain amount of speculation about the use of a public-relations
firm
to sell the idea of a gulf war to Congress (the two figures at the head
of the
commision were renting space from Hill and Nolton, the public relations
firm
that was handling the Kuwaiti case, which is subsedized by a few thousand
doll
ars per month. Hill and Nolton made a "contribution" to the political organiza
tion that these two congressman ran of $50,000 after the bombing of Iraq
had b
egun.). If you consider some of the news statements that are being made
about
North Korea, the bullshit propaganda is already starting, and their will
soon
be another armed incursion into Korea in the next 18-36 months. Some can
argue
that this is for the good of the world, but I cannot agree that this is
in fa
ct the right thing to do. If the US is against Nuclear weapons, they should
ge
t rid of theirs first, and then talk about others doing the same. Otherwise
th
is is nothhing more than a case of "do what I say, not what I do." America
is
only interested in staying at the top of the military race. If others were
to
develop nuclear weapons, then the US would have to worry about whether they
wo
uld have an arsenal to rival theirs.
>That's the political and the economics of the U. S. history. It
>could be argued that this is just as bad as putting Pol Pot into
>office.
I'm saying that it is.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Rick Vanderzwaag
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: America
Date: 10 Dec 93 01:38:01
--------
EID:6b04 1b8a0cc0
MSGID: 1:247/133 ac81e053
>Only in some areas. So far as human rights violations goes, the
>United States is fairly well reguarded. There _is_ the question
Bullshit! Watch that documentary the "Panama Deception" and be prepared
to dis
cover that the US government is actively engaged in Human rights abuses
in oth
er countries. Also, a quick scan of the US legal system, and some of the
cases
that have come past the bench are questionable to say the least. Recently,
a
17 year old black male was sentenced to 3 years in a state penetentury for
bre
aking into a school and stealing three ice cream bars. This was a first
offenc
e. The UN Human rights code strictly forbids minors (17 and under) of being
tr
ied in adult courts, but there are many cases in the US where this is ignored.
What about some of the fire fights in Somolia? The US has gunned down innocen
t women and children, and hasn't even appologized for these acts. The same
occ
ured in Vietnam and Korea. The US has a good human rights record only when
you
take into account the "official" record, released by the US government.
When
you dig down deeper, you find that there are many human rights abuses occring
every day, both in the US, and with US forces abroad, but the US government
wo
n't recognize those acts. Look at the US treatment of Blacks and Inidans,
and
tell me that the US did not activley engage in genocide with the Indians
throu
ghout the end of the last century. That, like it or not, is one of the most
he
nious human rights abuses that I can think of. (Canada is not all that much
be
tter, but then I am not proud to be a Canadian either.)
>And we _do_ have a free-press -- or rather our press is free when
>it's run by localized concerns and not national concerns.
US media news programs are the worst form of propaganda that I have ever
seen.
NBC (owned by GE which contracts to the US military in the production of
Nucl
ear weapons, submarines etc), ABC and CBS all cater to various business
organi
zations, and are often very politically oriented towards specific political
id
eologies and parties. There are aspects of certain situations that are never
p
resented on the comercial news programs that are brought out on PBS shows
and
documentaries, which indicate that the comercail stations censor massive
amoun
ts of information from their broadcasts. Being the avid watcher of CNN that
I
am, and the CBC Newsworld (Canadian news network), I can tell you that there
i
s a remarkable difference in the way that the US media handles certain events,
as compared to ITN or the BBC (which have shows on the CBC, and documentaries
on TVO (Ontario public broadcasting station) The bottom line to this is
that
the US news prgrams and stations censor out what could be "embarrasing"
to the
US, and their interests.
>There are many good things that the United States can boast about
Sure, and even Hitler was a briliant economist who pulled Germany out of
the D
epression and turned the German Economy into one of the strongest in the
world
at the time. He just had a little problem with breathing space, the jews,
and
a few other minorities.
>So has a couple of other empires. The whole Viet Nam nonsense
>was under that banner, wasn't it? And the US was just one player
>among many who participated in keeping the world free for
>democracy.
Yeah, but it was the US who convinced everyone else to get involved. (Either
b
y wheeling and dealing or threatening with economic reprisals.)
>Now _that_ I take great exception to. Unless what I see on
>television of the Soviet Union and its economic stupidity is
>entirely incorrect, the United States is the far better country
>to live in. If you're talking political expedients, again, I'll
>have to agree with you.
The US is not all that different from the Soviet Union at all. The US has
a ve
ry high poverty level, one of the lowest literacy levels of all the economic
s
uperpowers (G-7) and has one of the higher homeless rates in the free world.
A
merica is not the bastion of wealth and abundance that it thinks that it
is. I
find it amazing that the US chooses to come to the rescue of the starving
peo
ple of Somolia, when hundreds of thousands of people in America are faced
with
the exact same poverty, and it is left to church groups and social agencies
t
o look after these problems. It is true that the CIS is in a state of economic
dis-array, and that there are massive problems facing whatever government
end
s up leading them in the next little while, but the US is not all that much
be
tter. Excepting for minor differences in political ideology and having certain
economic hardships which are more pronounced in the Soviet Union, there
is li
ttle or no difference from living under either of them. (My roommate, having
f
irst hand knowledge of this has pointed this to me out on many occasions)
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Thylanes Silverwind
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Re: Hide from the light
Date: 09 Dec 93 21:00:08
--------
EID:868e 1b89a800
MSGID: 1:221/421 ac879c3e
FR> Who else who has made outrageous claims and might still be listening
FR> that I may have managed to allow to escape this particular set of
FR> demands for evidence?
FR>
FR> Judi Hare? Dead, I hear. Who else has waltzed in here, spouted a
FR> lot of occult prattle, and then gone screaming away for momma after
FR> the dred homosexuals and satanists presumed to show them the light?
WHAT are you babbling about?
Thylanes
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Christian Soldier
Sub: the order of things
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:30:40
--------
EID:8405 1b8aabc0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0930d0
with: Shelby Sherman
CS> There is ample evidence of "extreme moral order". There
CS> seems to be a common "order" concerning how people should
CS> properly behave toward one another. And this social "order"
CS> transcends religion, race, sex, time, and geographic
CS> location. People throughout the world and throughout history
CS> have generally agreed that honesty is the best policy ... that
CS> killing one another is wrong ... that helping somebody in
CS> need is a good and proper thing to do ... that taking care of
CS> your children is a responsibility ... etc. There seems to be
CS> an overwhelming consensus on proper human behavior amongst all
CS> cultures and religions. Don't you agree? Why is there no
CS> evidence of another significant form of human interaction?
CS> I know of none.
Considering the fact that humanity evolved this way, it hardly
seems remarkable. What's your point?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Mormons _just_ kill for god.
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:31:04
--------
EID:6b37 1b8aabe0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0930e8
with: jonny vee
jv> Bullshit. You can talk about it all you want. The SS may start
jv> watching you, tapping your phone, following you around, etc.
FR> Ask David about the SS coming to visit him and sit with him
FR> when George "The Baby Killer" Bush was in Southern
FR> California.
Two thugs followed me into the bathroom and refused to let me enter
a stall. I dropped my pants and prepared to urinate in the sink,
hoping to splatter them a little, but they told me to leave the
bathroom immediately. I pulled up my pants and went to where George
was speachifying--- I was going to ask him who his astrologer was.
The thugs followed me to that room and prevented me from entering:
I was the only one in the entire building who wasn't allowed in to
see the neo-Nazi butcher. They then followed me back to my work area
and babysat me for an hour or so. They unpluged the receiver off
of my phone.
Goddess! Send a few "suggestions" to Ronald McRaygun asking him to
stop butchering little brown babies and the SS jumps all over a guy!
Ask a tyrant when he's going to set up the ovens again and they, for
some reason, take offence. . . go figger.
We have photographs of George Bush on our walls here! I used to draw
red targets around his face, with the bull's-eye right between his
eyes, but then the company put up video cameras to watch the photos,
so now I can't do that any more. These people are No Fun! When I
escort people through the building, I always point out these photos
and tell people that we once hosted a world-famous infant canibalist.
---
Jim Kirk: "Bones! Is he. . . ?"
McCoy: "Yes, it's Comrad Fredric. . . . he's Red, Jim!"
Jim Kirk: "Better dead than Red!"
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Greg Gentry
Sub: Burning George Bush
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:31:26
--------
EID:9470 1b8aabe0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0930fe
With: Neal Feldman
>>NF> Is anyone else aware that in the middle east there is a
>>NF> type of bush that is so full of oils that it will burn
>>NF> without consuming the bush for a considerable time (and
>>NF> the bush itself is somewhat flame resistant as well) and
>>NF> that such burning can even begin spontaneously?
Yes, George Bush is soaked in oil, as well as blood, but it
is the money he is soaked in that keeps him from being burned.
GG> There are similar bushes in the US, on the West Coast.
GG> They were one reason the recent fires in Cali were so bad.
GG> I don't think the ones in Cali spontaneously combust, but
GG> they are very fire prone, and several cities are going to
GG> ban them as ground covering.
There was a house that had iceplant around it, that wasn't
touched by the fires even though the fourty houses around it
were reduched to ash. The people who built the house had fire
in mind, and included heat vending holes in the roof and
enclosed roof eaves that prevented heat from being trapped.
The thing is, for years their neighbors had been trying to get
these people to remove the iceplant and replace it with grass
so that the house would look like the rest. Iceplant is fat
and jucy and very hard to light. :-)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: James Conwell
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EVOLUTION
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:31:44
--------
EID:990c 1b8aabe0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d093110
with: Stewart Harris
>SH> try for you, will be able to duplicate it.
JC> I admit that I don't know if the "theory of evolution" is
JC> basically correct or not.
It is.
JC> I have examined much evidence which strongly suggests that
JC> it is not.
What is this "evidence?"
JC> I have also examined evidence which suggests that it is. I
JC> would like to know if it is true or not but then again I really
JC> don't care if it is or not.
That's true for many people--- they do not care how evolution
occured. As long as they understand the fact that all life on
Earth has evolved and continues to evolve, they don't -NEED- to
know the "hows" and the "whens."
JC> [cuts] Sincerely yours, a seeker of the truth.
You said you were a "real scientist." What does science have to
do with "the truth?" [Science deals with facts, not truth.]
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: James Conwell
Sub: Why do we care?!?
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:32:00
--------
EID:bc69 1b8aac00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d093120
with: Stewart Harris
>SH> Just as a matter of curiosity, is there anything in the dogma
>SH> of evolutionary theory which allows for any physical process
>SH> to dramatically improve overnight!
Ignorant, rather stupid question of Stewart's. Evolutionary theory
only addresses evolution, not "improvement." There are several other
problems with his assertion (which he deceptively couched as a
question).
#1: What does he mean by "inprove?"
#2: What does he mean by "overnight?"
#3: What does he mean by "dramatically?"
#4: Exactly -WHICH- "physical process" is he refering to? Is he so
ignorant as to believe that one cause can be responsible for all
effects?!
Therefore his "question" is meaningless.
JC> The only way that I am aware of for any physical process to
JC> drastically improve overnight is if some intelligent force
JC> takes action to improve it.
What is "improve?" What about all of the "improvements" made here
on Earth before there was intelligence?
JC> The only possible exception to this that I can think of would
JC> be the formation of crystals. They seem to "evolve" from a
JC> state of simplicity to one of well-ordered complexity. I
JC> know they are not alive but the simple fact that they exist
JC> seems astounding to me. What is your thinking on this?
What is "Simplicity?" What is "well-ordered?" What is "complexity?"
Many systems are self-ordering. Gravity wells are excellent tools
for agregating material. Stars are excellent tools for providing
temperature gradiants that perform work. Membranes seperate desolved
minerals in solutions.
Stewart must tell us what "physical process dramatically improves
overnight."
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: James Conwell
Sub: POLITE
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:32:26
--------
EID:c464 1b8aac00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d09313a
with: Fredric Rice...
JC> Really? "Everyone is born an atheist"? Hmmmmmmmm..........
Yes.
JC> Then how on earth did theism ever get started then?
Several reasons. The first is, we evolved to have an alpha male
mentality, where rulership of the herd is governed by the one
male that demonstrates the ability to dominate the rest of the
members of the herd. This is a survival trait, and very powerful.
We are still suffering from this trait (witness wars, fascist
governments, street gangs, Christianity, etc.).
Another reason is ignorance, fear, superstition, and wishful
thinking. In other words, we evolved the ability to anticipate
future events, and then plan for them. This is also a very
powerful survival trait, but one problem is, it SUPERCEEDES the
ability to reason in cases where not all information is known.
The ability to determine probability based upon what is known
and what is not known is applied AFTER the ability to anticipate
future events.
Given the above two conditions, i'd go so far as to say that any
and all beings that can #1: reason and #2: have an alpha-male
mentality, will create gods just like we did.
The above opinions are demonstrated true, as on a whole the more
education one has, the less one believes in gods. A society that
is educated would be atheist. We've never had such a society.
JC> If all the original humans were born atheists and noone was
JC> around to indoctrinate them into being theists then how could
JC> they become theists?
That's a silly question. You are assuming that the cult masters
who indoctrinate people into the occult, actually believe that there
are gods. Theism is POLITICAL first, then theological.
Ever ask yourself how the belief in Santa Claus started?!
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Childish and evil[sic] game
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:32:50
--------
EID:db31 1b8aac00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d093152
with: Fredric Rice
>FR> It's funny; it look your McCarthyist beliefs to cause you to
>FR> self-destruct.
JCJ> It's all a game to you, isn't it, Fredric? You have no interest
JCJ> in rational discourse -- certainly no interest in hearing what
JCJ> any person of religious faith has to say -- but not even an
JCJ> interest in attempting to persuade such a person by rational
JCJ> argument.
It took you this long to figure that out?! You're even slower than I
gave you credit for.
Jesse, to save you yet more time and embarrassment, I guess I should
point out some things to you:
People "of religious faith" often provide valuable input, as long as
they keep their occult prattle to themselves. The HOLYSMOKE Regulars,
with two or three exceptions out of two dozen people, support the
Constitutionally gauranteed right to worship as one pleases, and would
(and a couple of us -DO!-) fight for your right to believe and
practice your arcane occult rituals as you please, unhindered by
your / our co-citizens and government.
When a "person of religious faith" says something here concerning their
"religious faith," it is almost universally without merit. We all live
here in the real world, with real issues and concerns. Asserting silly
occult prattle as a means to deal with reality is a "solution" does not
deserve exploration. Get off your butts and knees from praying, and
put your backs and hands to work DOING something. Praying never put
food on the table.
JCJ> Instead, you and your fellow heathens here form a hateful[sic]
JCJ> gauntlet, daring each new believer to enter and be subjected to
JCJ> your blasphemous[sic] and hateful[sic] flames[sic],
Tell me, Jesse. Do you have -ANY- evidence that Ciya is any less real
than your gods? Or to posit the question ass-first, have you -ANY-
evidence that Jesus is more real than Ciya?
What you call "hateful" and "blasphemous," normal people call critical
thinking.
Please look at it a diferent way: we get a lot of Christian occultists
in here who have no idea what evolution is, nor what evolutionary
theory states. Then they castigate the people who -are- educated in
these topics for not kneeling down and kissing their Creationist
master's ass. When we ask them tough questions, we are called "hateful"
and "blasphemous."
I'll tell you something you probably missed: I have yet to see any
non-theist here verbally abuse someone who didn't first open their
silly occultist mouth and say something insulting, rude, obnoxious,
and calculated to demean---- THAT INCLUDES YOU, FRIEND!
JCJ> while you elbow each other like drunken little boys engaged in
JCJ> a gang rape.
It's call narcism. You should be very familure with the feeling, if
not the term, as you show all the signs of being infected. Narcism is
what keeps -YOU- here, Jesse, whining and complaining about how horrid
everyone treats little ole you. [Hint: if you didn't claim outrageous,
ignorant, silly, nonsesical assertions that are completely void of
fact and reason, you'd not get any heat here.]
The reason us "drunken little boys" are here is also narcism. It is
for mental masturbation: the same reason you are here. Face it, Jesse:
you're hooked. The day you stop reading this echo will be the start of
the nights when you lay in bed dreaming about it. You -NEED- this echo!
It has become your crack cocain.
We got you, Jesse. You belong to us now. We know every string to pull
to watch you jerk and dance and spin.
And the bitch of it is, some day when you have thrown off your
debilitating mental slavery and discover how you have lied to yourself
and decieved yourself, you are going to be SO ANGRY with yourself for
living a lie so long, and wasting your LIFE on the lie!
Goddess, Jesse! Your one and ONLY LIFE, and you spend it on occult
prattle and silly arcane rituals! Doesn't that sicken you?! All those
years WASTED! You could have discovered what TRUE, =INTERNALIZED=
morality and ethics are, instead of coerced, sick and perverted
"morality" and "ethics" handed down to you by hundreds of long-dead
ignorant Hebrews. You could have known TRUE LOVE, with real HUMANS,
instead of coerced, sick, neurotic "love" by a fictitious air-god
who you have been ordered to believe you MUST "love" least it torture
you for all eternity.
You would sooner kiss Barbara Bush than accept my pity, but you do
have it.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Jay Noyes
Sub: Food for thought
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:33:40
--------
EID:0290 1b8aac20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d093184
>DR> While I am a covener, Wiccan, and atheist, and therefor have
>DR> no belief in magic rituals (Christian or otherwise), I still
>DR> consider such breach of ethics and morality to be repugnant
JN> Just out of interest, is it possible to be, simultaneously, a
JN> covener, Wiccan AND an atheist. Not that it really bothers me
JN> or anything, but it seems that the Wiccans believe in some form
JN> of divine power, or at least a greater power, and thus could not
JN> be atheist. Of course, I could be wrong, and look forward to
JN> any information you can give me on the subject.
My opinion is that spirituality does not require gods or "greater
powers" of any kind. Not all Wiccan will agree with me. Many will
(and do). It is the sense of community that I enjoy.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: The End Is Near
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:33:52
--------
EID:7fb1 1b8aac20
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d093190
MG> Tomorrow is the ninth of December. If anyone experiences
MG> earthquakes, floods, fires, or other natural disasters, the
MG> reason is simple.
Or supernatural disasters like SpinMcRon.
MG> By the time you have read this, Godmarty and myself will have
MG> had lunch together at some cheap joint in Houston. I know that
MG> it will be cheap as he has offered to pick up the check.
Don't forget to ask for catchup to go with the fries. Check the
meat patty for marks where the jockey was hitting it.
MG> Having never met him, this should be a strange experience.
MG> Will let you know if he actually drinks bourbon or if he's
MG> just trying to be funny. No one with any intelligence would
MG> stoop to drinking that stuff.
Anyone who'd consume such swill when there's rum in the world,
is Fundy material.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Quentin Fai
Sub: Patri-idiot
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:34:08
--------
EID:419f 1b8aac40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0931a0
with: Keith Rockhold
>>KR> My country has done alot of aweful things over the years
>>KR> but you WILL NOT list that among them.
I "will not. . . ." I get a kick every time I read that. How is
he going to prevent me from doing so? He sounds awfully fascist
Nazi-like. "You WILL NOT question your country's atrocities! You
WILL look the other way when the cattle cars full of Jews pass!"
QF> The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was TOTALLY
QF> UNNECESSARY. Japan was already ready to surrender. Therefore,
QF> it counts as an act of brutality by the USA.
They had requested a cease-fire, which was denied: beats fighting
the same enemy later. The war was all but over by the time the
atomic bombs were droped. The USA could have dropped the bombs
in Japan's harbor, as Albert Einstein begged and pleaded, instead
of on the two cities.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: The Xtian fraud called Piltdown Man
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:34:22
--------
EID:842e 1b8aac40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0931ae
with: Amy Anderson-Coffin
RS> Hello Amy,
RS>
RS> Southwestern Assemblies of God at Waxahachie, Tx. I am
RS> still currently enrolled there.
Until the next AoG sex scandal. ;-)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Suzy Rosenhan
Sub: Who needs gods?
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:34:32
--------
EID:fe05 1b8aac40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0931b8
with: Robert Curry
>RC> Oh, and before I forget, welcome to HolySmoke!
SR> Thanks! I was here once before but I got side-tracked. Perhaps
SR> I'll stick around this time.
Unless you are a card-carrying Communists, you aren't allowed to
speak to Jesse Jones. No, really! :-)
>RC> It must be hard to have such a family, where they are both
>RC> the jailors and the jailed. One might alternately hate them
>RC> and pity them for it, but no matter how you feel about the
>RC> situation, you have to live with it. the only question for you
>RC> is how you will live with it. Choose well.
["Grasshopper"]
SR> That's the toughest part of all is how I live with it. Should I
SR> be as cruel to them as they are to me?
Then you would feel the need to justify your behavior to yourself and
perhaps to them, instead of them rationalizing their behavior to you
and themselves. Walking a higher, cleaner path leaves some bridges
left unburned.
I'd much rather have someone else explain to me why they treat me
badly, than my having to justify to myself why I treat others badly.
SR> Should I tolerate their actions because they are doing what they
SR> feel is right?
"The end justifies the means." My fuzz copper pig aquantences tell me
that "actions prove intent" meaning no matter what one's goals are,
one is judged and found innocent or guilty by one's actions, not on
one's intent (intent determines punishment, not guilt or innocense).
If your family members really had your well-being and happiness in
mind, their actions (if I may be so bold to suggest) it seems to me,
would be quite different.
Maybe their actions are for their own well-being and happiness, and
yours is secondary?
SR> Should I give my parents some respect for having raised me to be
SR> a fairly good person and having spent a great deal of time dealing
SR> with my medical problems?
Of course. But, when who determines what you owe them? And for how
long? Idealy, you do.
SR> Perhaps this is where my guilt comes from. No matter how justified
SR> I feel in excluding my family from my wedding (they have excluded
SR> Steve from certain functions), I still feel some sort of respect
SR> for the good times that I did have with them. I certainly could
SR> have had a much worse upbringing. Somehow I don't think my family
SR> will get the message when they find out that I excluded them from
SR> my wedding. Suzy
You may end up going through life feeling you owe a debt that was
never incured. (Jewish Mother Syndrome.)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: Stephen Vakil
Sub: Back in the USSR
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:35:06
--------
EID:1d05 1b8aac60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0931da
SV> I am talking about recently, like this century. True, we
SV> have committed minor acts of evil, but nothing compares
SV> to some of the things done in both russia and Europe
SV> this century.
The USA government injected 19 people with plutonium without
telling them. They all died horribly. They subjected 800 army
personale to atomic bomb blasts without telling them the
dangers involved. They sprayed mutagens on citizens of other
nations and brought about generations of disfigured, limbless
people. Institutionalized slavery. Apartheid in the south and
economic oppression in the north. McCarthyism.
"Minor acts of evil. . . ." Good grief!
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: When Pigs Fly!
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:42:34
--------
EID:4e71 1b8aad40
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d09339a
===========================================================
= This file was downloaded from a Christian occult =
= BBS, and should be regarded as suspect in areas of =
= factuality. The Christian cult has seldom displayed =
= any aversion to lying to achive their agendas. drice =
===========================================================
PORK BULLETS TO BE IMPLEMENTED TO CURB TERRORIST
VIOLENCE...
JERUSALEM, Israel -- According to Jerusalem News Service, a
strategy used by a Jewish Marine colonel during the Spanish-
American War has inspired an Israeli inventor to patent
bullets and synthetic rocks that "kill the souls" of
terrorists motivated by Islamic fundamentalism.
Chemist Rabbi Moshe Antelman says his bullets, code-named
"AT-PLO (Anti-Terrorist Paradise Lost Ordnance)
projectiles," hold promise in defusing the intifada
uprising in Israel.
The deadly ingredient in the ammunition is pork. "Neither
Jew nor Moslem is allowed to eat pork but religious Moslems
also believe that contact with swine kills the soul," said
Antelman, an orthodox rabbi.
The inventor, who is also chief advisor for the Department
of Nuclear Physics at the Weizmann Institute, proposes
manufacturing the projectiles from pork lard. His synthetic
rocks are compositions of ground, dried pork bones.
During the Spanish American War of 1898, American forces in
the Philippines were confronted by the Moros, a Moslem
group fanatical to the point of suicide because of their
beliefs in the Koran. The Moslem holy book promises eternal
Paradise should a Moslem die opposing the armies of the
infidel.
But Samuel E. Driben, a Jewish colonel in U.S. Marine Corps
intelligence, noted that Moros taken as prisoners feared
contact with pork. Knowing neither the prohibition against
pork in the Koran nor the interpretation that contact with
swine or swine products would deprive a Moslem of Paradise,
Driben requisitioned thousands of pigskins. Those captured
were wrapped and imprisoned in pigskins. The dead were
buried in pigskins. When the word got around, the Moslems
lost their enthusiasm for their terrorist activities,
realizing that "Paradise was to be lost rather than
gained," Antelman said.
By mixing pork lard with copolymers, Antelman has formed
bullets similar to the hard rubber ones currently in use by
the Israeli Defense Forces in fighting the intifada.
Until Islamic fundamentalist elements popularized the Arab
resistance to the Jewish state, the uprising was largely a
nationalist secular movement by Palestinian Arabs. It is
hoped that the pork projectiles could end at least the
Islamic fundamentalist fervor behind the current uprising
in Israel.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Church of Elvis
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:43:22
--------
EID:a598 1b8aad60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d0933ca
===========================================================
= This file was downloaded from a Christian occult =
= BBS, and should be regarded as suspect in areas of =
= factuality. The Christian cult has seldom displayed =
= any aversion to lying to achive their agendas. drice =
===========================================================
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (EP) -- Could Elvis Presley be the object
of worship in a new religion? Ted Harrison, former BBC
religion correspondent, suggests as much in his new book,
Elvis People: The Cult of the King (Harpers).
Harrison notes that fans of Elvis build shrines to him in
their homes, and recount stories about his birth and death
like tales from the gospels. Fans make pilgrimages to
Graceland, home of Elvis, and some report seeing Elvis
despite his reported death.
"What is now the Elvis cult could be nothing less than a
religion in embryo," says Harrison.
-- 30 --
Let's hope so! -- drice
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Wicca gets undeserved bad name
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:44:40
--------
EID:1620 1b8aad80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d093418
===========================================================
= This file was downloaded from a Christian occult =
= BBS, and should be regarded as suspect in areas of =
= factuality. The Christian cult has seldom displayed =
= any aversion to lying to achive their agendas. drice =
===========================================================
(NIRR) -- A coup for followers of Wicca: a third-generation
witch has taken a seat among the Salem (Mass.) Religious
Leaders Association. Shawn Poirer, high priest of the Coven
of the Black Rose, joined the inter-faith group last month.
Marta Flanagan of the First Universalist Church became
Poirer's main advocate to gain membership in the Salem
Clergy Association, the SRLA's precursor that disbanded upon
his admittance. Flanagan allows Poirer's coven to meet in
her church's basement, although some Salem Wiccans meet at
groves, the old town hall, homes, and beaches.
"People come and think it's a joke, and find out it's not a
joke," Ken Stigler, pastor of Salem's Wesley Methodist
Church, told the National and International Religion Report.
"People walk around town wearing black capes, with inverted
crosses and pentagrams," Stigler said. Wiccans claim to have
4,000 followers in the city of 40,000. Others put the number
much lower.
"Allowing Wicca the rule and rein of tourism in Salem has
been unfortunate theologically and economically disastrous,"
Stigler said. Businesses may be intrigued by the idea of
witches, but tend not to settle in town, he added. In Salem,
famous for its 1692 witch trials, the town seal and
promotional materials feature witchcraft symbols.
"People here are sick of it," said Joseph Kost, pastor of
the non-denominational Christian Renewal Church. He told
NIRR that Christians long remained silent "because the town
was making money," but occultism "crept in because the door
was open." Christian clergy will meet separately this month
to pray and plan their church events.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Hector Plasmic
To: Christian Soldier
Sub: Re: the order of things
Date: 09 Dec 93 15:55:59
--------
EID:7bed 1b897ee0
SPTH: Fidonet#1:380/16
MSGID: Fidonet#1:380/16 07bb0f00
REPLY: 1:123/67 2d0541fb
>SS> "Extreme order of our universe" is not a miracle. It is
>SS> explained by laws of physics.
CS> I keep hearing statements similar to this from all of you guys.
CS>Can't you see the extreme contradiction in this statement?
CS> I claim that there seems to be an uncanny order in our universe
CS>that seems to adhere to a set of laws. You say that all that order
CS>is the simple manifestation of the laws of physics.
Yep. Too difficult for you to understand?
CS>Why is there even any LAWS OF PHYSICS?
Why wouldn't there be? is as valid (and meaningless) a question.
An