God Damned Fundies!
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: jonny vee
Sub: Evolutional Ignorance
Date: 12 Jan 94 15:37:34
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MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 060d76ae
REPLY: 1:215/606@Fido 01157042
PID: FM 2.02
>> The Misconceptions of Evolution
>> By Ransom R. Traxler
>> In spite of our technical society and our public school system,
>> most people believe in many misconceptions about evolution.
jv> Misunderstandings of details of evolutionary theory can be as
jv> harmful as the misinformation at the broader scale Traxler discusses.
jv> One such is the belief that the conflict between so-called gradualism
jv> and punctuationism casts doubt on all evolutionary theory.
Yes. If you saw it, Bill Wolff and others have been thinking that the debate
about the mode and tempo of evolutionary speciation ment that evolution
doesn'
t happen. Bill Wolff and these others didn't know that it was the mode
and te
mpo under discussion and not the validity of the fact.
Traxler should have mentioned it, yeah.
>> One reason could be that they are ignorant about science and,
>> therefore, make many mistakes. However, they say that they are
>> experts on evolution and have some degree in engineering or
>> theology to prove it.
jv> It should be too obvious to bear my pointing it out, but for the
jv> sake of educating the most dreadfully ignorant here, let's take
jv> note that a degree in engineering may be technical, but not
jv> necessarily scientific.
Immanual Kant recognized the possibility that the fuzzy nebula that scientists
and laypeople saw in the sky at night might be "island universes" -- that
was
in 1755 long before Edwin P. Hubble determined the validity of the expanding
universe.
Intelligent people capable of employing deduction need not hold degrees
in ast
ronomy or cosmology or physics to deduce a rational possibility. They may
not
know how to test the validity of the possibility, of course. What we see
ar
e people who don't know what constitutes a rational deduction of evidence
hold
ing no discernable degrees within the bevy of knowledge they feel comfortable
and justified in speaking of.
It's not totally unjustified to ask the creationist what his or her credential
s are yet, more often, the next question should by why that person feels
quali
fied to speak outside of his or her field.
jv> Many people have come to associate the complex equipment used
jv> in scientific research with science itself, but science is much
jv> more than big machines and flashing lights.
It is?
jv> As for the scientific background of a
jv> theology major, well, I won't waste my time.
A theology major is merely a philosopher who specializes in deity-oriented
men
tal masturbations. One may as well discuss biology with a plant.
>> Many of the "scientific creationist" debaters make statements they
>> cannot prove; in fact, many scientists have proved their claims as
>> false and they have admitted their error. Yet in their next debate
>> or presentation, they repeat these falsehoods unabatedly.
We certainly see a lot of this in the HolySmoke forum. Bill Wolff, for
instan
ce, and Ron Stringfellow would merely blink a few times and then restate
the i
rrational and soundly-debunked claim.
jv> This may be a false dichotomy. There is at least
jv> one other possible explanation, I think.
jv>
jv> I have a model of the creationist mentality that may explain
jv> some of their behavior. The key factor is faith.
Faith? Not ignorance?
jv> Individual creationists may or may not consider themselves
jv> scientists, but in truth, the creationist approach is the exact
jv> opposite of the scientific method. Science comes to conclusions
jv> based on the process of observing nature and then developing
jv> hypotheses, experiment, and theory to explain what has been
jv> observed in nature. Creationism uses a religious approach. They
jv> begin with the conclusion, an unquestioned (and, to them
jv> unquestionable) belief that the existence of the universe and all
jv> we see in it is the work of their deity, and then they work
jv> backwards from that to develop their so-called theory.
That may very well be merely faith and yet I still consider it to be ignorance
as its primary motivation. The physical impossibility of their claims are
no
t subject to debate among those who know of such violations of physics.
If th
e creationist understands physical laws and continues to believe in the
creati
onist nonsense, _then_ it is a matter of faith.
My opinion, of course. Faith isa wonderful motivator yet what creationist
has
managed to argue rationally, technically, or scientifically about his or
her
strange beliefs? I will claim that none have and that none can.
jv> Those of us who are not afflicted may not understand the power
jv> of religious faith, having never felt its fierce solidity.
If they are educated in physical sciences, that would be one astounding
magnat
ude of willful denial.
jv> I myself can testify to the subjective reality of this
jv> experience; though obviously my own faith was not as unshakable
jv> as others (else I would not be writing today from this side of
jv> the dispute), I can say that I know some of what it feels like.
Such irrationality is aparently foreign to me. I can't concieve of someone
be
ing so badly blinded by wishful thinking as to believe what he or she "knows
d
amn well ain't so." I would like to attribute it to ignorance rather than
fai
th.
jv> christian, the deity is as real as the ground s/he walks on. While
jv> some may have the occasional crisis of faith, and while others may
jv> be christians by cultural default or even cynically making a
jv> killing on the schlock market, a significant number of christians
jv> really do believe completely in the myth and dogma of their church.
A belief in deities is one thing. A belief in the 'validity' of a church
myth
ology is quite another. Yet, as Steve Bedard has shown us, if one can accept
one occult belief, others are not so very difficult.
jv> In christian religion, they expect data and conclusions to be
jv> supported by scriptural "evidence". If a hypothesis is in conflict
jv> with religious doctrine, then the hypothesis must be modified or
jv> discarded. If an observation contradicts Holy Writ, then the
jv> observation must be erronious and must be discarded. If someone
jv> claims the observation is confirmed as fact, they must be mistaken,
jv> lying, or somehow misled by Satan.
The ultimate bail-out what faith is threatened. Notice how Bedard thinks
that
we're serving his 'Satan' deity? ("Allowed to choose" was his actual words.)
The reason the rational are incapable of a belief in unseen deities is becaus
e we worship one of his unseen deities.
jv> A creationist can not accept anything that contradicts their
jv> beliefs. They will make claims they cannot prove; they believe
jv> that the claims are true, so proof must exist.
Sounds like Bob Larson. He _knows_ that there are 'Satanists' running around
the country, highly organized and international, eating babies and fucking
his
children. When not one bit of evidence is found, it's because the conspiracy
is so well planned and actioned -- not because he's full of onzin.
jv> Whether they are in posession of proof or not is ireelevant to them.
jv> You can prove them false; they will believe that they are still true,
jv> and your proof has some error they can't put their finger on or
jv> something like that.
An astute evaluation. Certainly facts never sway a creationist to reason.
jv> The creationist(s) described may be acting from one of the two
jv> possibilies Traxler suggests, either making mistakes about science
jv> due to ignorance or knowingly repeating lies, but I would suggest
jv> that they may also be acting under influence of faith, unable to
jv> recognize that they are disseminating disinformation, unable to
jv> distinguish between objective reality and the myth they believe in.
It's entirely possible that Traxler was being politically nice and not trying
to point at unreasoned faith as the crux of the problem. He may employ
that r
easoning (willful ignorance due to faith rather than simple ignorance) because
he is a skeptic and is not supposed to consider religious faith.
~*~ Not all scientists are stupid. - Joanne Bergeron
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Maybe you can tell me
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:33:26
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dc> ... +Origin: MARINARA Network: Soaking your meat for Jeezus!
This one is meat! I mean neat!
~*~ The sun is covered in bright green puppy dogs.
Martians have taken over the US government. - Kelsey Bjarnason
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Morality Quotient(tm)
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:47:01
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REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d28d708
PID: FM 2.02
QT> What I have seen from your posts, Jesse,
QT> are not what I saw 3 months ago.
jcj> I'll tell you what, Kenn. I came on here and tried to discuss
jcj> things with the participants in an intelligent and respectful way.
Yet you failed with your first post, by all accounts. Anyone who claims
that
emotions are actually spirits is incapable of discussing anything in an
intell
igent and rational manor. Quite simple, and no insult intended, you failed
b
ecause you were incapable of being rational. Time was all it took to get
clea
r indication of this immutable fact.
jcj> Instead I have been insulted and vilified.
You chose (so you claim) to join the Christian deathcult. No one held a
gun t
o your head and demanded that you join the single most destructive ideology
wh
ich has yet to walk the Earth.
jcj> Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek. Sometimes I fall short.
So much for rational discussion.
~*~ Did you know that whiskey was made to keep the Irish
from ruling the world? -
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: FIRST GAY FUNDY
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:49:01
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DB> The individual chooses whether to resist the temptation or indulge it.
DB> Deliberately indulging in what one knows to be evil is known as 'SIN'.
DB> Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil because they are opposed to
gg> Gay-bashers like yourself are almost invariably self-repressed
gg> homosexuals who feel threatened by others expressing their gay
gg> lifestyle and being happy.
BINGO. We have a winner. You've hit that guy's problem right on the nail.
(S
o-to-speak.) And I see that Steve Winter is a butt-buddy want-to-be with
this
guy. I'll post the article next:
~*~ If Iraq invaded Turkey from the rear would Greece help? - Unknown
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: All
Sub: Hey, Edith! Dinner on the table!
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:52:12
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MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 0610d7dd
PID: FM 2.02
"Thank You Mr. Archie Bunker"
By Glen Pannicke
SysOp: The Digital Abyss BBS, 1:107/398
(908) 422-4130
[14.4Kbps v.32b v.42b]
Dear Mr. Winter,
Your article in FidoNews Vol.10 No.52 regarding homosexuality and
the Bible is clear in displaying your blatant discrimination and
outright self-righteous ignorance. I have no idea what relevance
your article has towards issues involving FidoNet. In fact, it only
adds more fuel to the many bonfires which burn in the good old
"Fight*O*Net". Thank you Mr. Archie Bunker!
I am not a homosexual. As a matter of fact, I am 100%
heterosexual. I am also not your stereotypical "bleeding heart
liberal" either, but your article made me choke. I cannot believe
you seriously have the gaul to submit this article for publication!
I make FIDONEWS available for on-line viewing on my BBS and I have
received replies from many disturbed users regarding your article.
It is our contention (mine & a few other user's here) that you
gay-bash from behind the sacred shield of religious belief.
Quoting Steve Winters:" I encourage anyone deceived into the sewers
of homosexuality to repent and find a true Acts 2:38 Church.
The sin is fatal, but it is not unforgivable."
Well Steve, I encorage those who have been deceived into the
sewers of your ignorance to seriously consider focusing on some of
the more virtuous disciplines of the Bible. I would like to know
if your "true Acts 2:38 Church" is totally devoted to gay-bashing
or is it devoted to the spirit of Christ? Does your congregation all
wear white sheets to mass? Do you focus on just homosexuals or do
you employ Equal Opportunity Hatred in your congregation by including
Hispanics, African Americans, Asians, Jews, Muslims, Native
Americans, Taoist-Communist-Bisexual-One-Eyed-VietNam-Veterans too?
Discrimination in any form is banned on my BBS out of plain old
common courtesy to all. I guess the HOLY_BIBLE echo is too. Your
message of ignorance and hatred won't reach here.
~*~ You're dangerous 'cause you're honest - U2
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: Satanism 101
Date: 12 Jan 94 16:57:04
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SV> From what I gather, they believe in the teachings of
SV> christianity, but have decided that Satan is the God to worship...
gg> NOT!!
FR> Yet SV reached the conclusion that Anton LaVey wished him to reach
FR> when armed only with the name of his religion.
gg> Yeah, it seems that ol' Anton isn't really interested in mass
gg> appeal. The Church of Satan does not prostelyze (sp?), rather
gg> they let those truly creative individuals come to them - and their
gg> ranks stand proud :-)
And it certainly was a good marketing gimmick. I wonder if Anton realized
jus
t how far and widely known his religion is among the Christian populace;
yet p
erhaps a percent of them know the precepts behind the synthetic religion.
~*~ I don't care if you're a Lesbian trapped in a mans body
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: "Missing day"
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:05:10
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REPLY: 1:100/4 861F2527
PID: FM 2.02
gg> I tried to find out where this "planet" is supposed to be, but she
gg> dodged the question & said she "wasn't allowed" to tell people
gg> where it is :-)
That's part of their belief that they get their own planet after they're
dead.
If they're good little boys (girls not allowed) they get to rule their own
pl
anet and create their own tyranies.
~*~ Homosexuality and liberalism IS evil... Both are destined to fail...
- Joe Savelli
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Khonsu
Sub: An Often-answered Questio
Date: 12 Jan 94 21:29:04
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REPLY: 1:247/133 02164bdc
PID: FM 2.02
FR> There is nothing unusual about virgin births. It happens quite often.
TAW> Evidence please. As well, clarify what you mean by "virgin birth".
k> Beggin your pardon guys, but aren't most
k> people virgins when they are born?
It's a long and lengthy story.
~*~ If I'm an atheist, does that mean that I won't go to heaven?
- Rodney Matejek
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Evolution
Date: 12 Jan 94 22:05:55
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REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 39ab7b00
PID: FM 2.02
> Gish also dredges up several sea-serpent and lake-monster
> tales to make his case. Thus the Loch Ness Monster becomes
> the Cretaceous plesiosaur Elasmosaurus.
It's amazing the level of lies and deception a Christian will go through
in or
der to convince himself and those who'll pay him money for the priv. about
suc
h creationist nonsense.
There were tests performed on the population density of the fish life in
Loch
Ness to determine the size of a possible large animal surviving for a period
o
f time. It turns out that the biggest aquatic animal which might survive
is 1
00 pounds.
> see Jacobs 1993). In all seriousness, when referring to one
> sea-monster account, Gish says, "It seems you never have a
> camera when you need it!" (p. 87).
Just like his deities.
> thrown overboard. Ever the mystery monger, Gish quotes
> Japanese scientists who believed this to be a plesiosaur,
> but Gish never mentions that the tissue samples showed this
> creature was really a shark (Cohen 1982: 174).
Cohen has uncovered many creationists lies much like this one. He's reachable
through InterNet mail, by the way.
~*~ We tend to idealize tolerance, then wonder why we find ourselves
infested with losers and nut cases. -- PATRICK HAYDEN
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Rose
Sub: Demons
Date: 12 Jan 94 22:06:44
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REPLY: 1:109/601 2d28ab52
PID: FM 2.02
SQ>> He IS comparing himself to Jesus. Witness his masochistic desire
SQ>> to be ridiculed and abused by the "heathens" here.
DW> I know where we can get a couple of cross-ties to use for a cross.
sr> I know of many people we can invite to join in and hoist him up.
No need. He's hoist by his own petard.
~*~ Airplanes are able to fly because God created the laws of nature
that allow it to fly. - Steve Bedard
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Joe Schultz
Sub: Real unconvincing evidence
Date: 12 Jan 94 22:38:20
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REPLY: 1:114/262.0 2d285d5b
PID: FM 2.02
JS> Now, for my personal definition of God:
JS> "Any one/thing smarter/stronger than I."
ML> Then gravity's a god to you?
JS> No. I am smarter than gravity.
ML> Not at all apparent.
js> Ok, brain. Prove to me that gravity has intelligence.
You should be asking for evidence, not mathematical proofs which
you w
ould be ill-equipped to decipher in any event. Yet, to provide evidence
to s
uccessfully argue Marty's comment:
1) Gravity doesn't feel the need to define a non-existant something called
'go
d.'
2) Gravity is intelligent according to the requirements of intelligence;
speci
fically, gravity reasons and contemplates all of existance instantaniously
(ex
plained below.) You do not. (If you desire further requirements for intellig
ence, please state them.)
Gravity is perfect in everything it does; you are not. First, gravity is
always accumulative and never makes any mistakes about it. Gravity makes
its
effects known throughout the entire universe, never missing a spot, according
to very strict laws from which it does not deviate; you do not attain such
hig
h levels of reliability. Gravity can be depended upon; you can not. Gravity
o
ften sorts dissimilar materials to a degree of perfection you are entirely
inc
apable of performing. Gravity will never die; you will soon.
-=-
Quite simply, if you're looking for something smarter than you and something
w
hich is perfect in everything that it does, gravity is your deity.
~*~ D'you wear a black arm band when they shot the man who said
"Peace could last forever" - GNR
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Dave Schultz
Sub: Good and ignorant
Date: 12 Jan 94 22:49:39
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PID: FM 2.02
ds> It's a matter of becoming aware, or admitting that love is
ds> really God, not the human, so to speak. The human is the
ds> receiver of that love.
Well, so much for biology. It would appear that chemicals are stronger
than y
our deities, Dave. It also appears as though your deities are easilly created
and discarded as needed through electrochemical reactions induced through
dir
ect cranial stimulation and medicative manipulations.
ds> I know that's hard to accept.
It's quite easilly accepted by those who are ignorant of biology and by
those
who foolishly buy into the occult.
ds> Example: When we say: 'I Love You' to the object of our
ds> affection, we are really saying "I god You," or I want to be
ds> your god. Or I want you to be my god. Ring a bell?
Good grief how bizzare! Your occult beliefs allow you to redefine words.
I h
ave a buck here that says you're a creationist.
ds> Doesn't it seem typical, when someone uses the word God, everyone
ds> opposed to the term runs to their armory and pulls out their
ds> street sweepers, hand grenades and sniper guns?
Where is this happening?
In South Central Los Angeles where the gangs come
from Catholic families and go to church every sunday?
Or are you thinking of Lebanon where warring Christian
factions take delight in getting photographs
of god's enemies after their bellies are cut open?
Or are you thinking of Northern Ireland where
Prodestants look for Catholic children to murder with
car bombs in retaliation for Prodestant children
murdered by Catholics?
Or perhaps you're thinking of Serbian Christian
forces trying to exterminate the infidel Muslim towns?
You know, where the good Christians rape seven-year-old
boys and girls before cutting them from the crotch up?
You're selling hatred, tyranny, and superstitious ignorance, Dave. You'll
fin
d that the prospective buyers here are far better educated than you are
in the
ways of religious tyranny in the name of your deities.
~*~ It's the end of the world as we know, ah it's the end of the world
as we know it -- and I feel fine - R.E.M.
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Luke Enriquez
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 12 Jan 94 22:52:10
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PID: FM 2.02
le> I feel uncomfortable about islamic countries, but I dont
le> think there more evil than anyone else.
What's wrong with Islamic countries?
btw: that's "they're" not "there."
~*~ A religionoid cannot use Dove. Dove only sports 1/4 cleansing cream...
and their myth-gawds demand 100% purity. - Steve Rose
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: no not that
Date: 13 Jan 94 10:25:01
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REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d27ff8f
PID: FM 2.02
KJ> In a recent study done by two astute athiest independantly
KJ> came up with the same results : The probability of life
KJ> coming into existence without the intervention of some divine
KJ> being is 0.
taw> Interesting.
In spades. The fact that these two "athiests" were believers in deity never
e
ncroached into this poor guys mind. Of course he lied.
~*~ But lets face it, if politicians weren't allowed to lie, half the
time they'd have trouble saying their own names. - Paul Feonic
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Sacred Sperm
Date: 13 Jan 94 10:34:47
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MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068a62e7
PID: FM 2.02
ml> ...Oh, Immanual Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.
Was _is_ the half-life of an Immanual Kant?
~*~ D'you wear a black arm band when they shot the man who said
"Peace could last forever" - GNR
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Robert Curry
Sub: "true scientist" flood of ignorance
Date: 13 Jan 94 10:40:50
--------
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REPLY: 1:3603/140.4 7cb02a73
PID: FM 2.02
JC> If both polar ice caps melted COMPLETELY
rc> ...sea level would rise a number of feet. Fredric Rice would drown
rc> (since he's in the Netherlands) and I would regret not being able to
rc> shoot him for his annoyingly consistent spelling infractions. :-)
Oh come now! I've only been ticketed twice this year. }:-}
JC> and then a large asteroid hit the Earth
Lovely science fiction plot development.
rc> How large? Round figures will be fine here. Let's see 'em.
Large enough to oblate the majority of the planet off into a cometary orbit,
l
eaving the rest to wobble as a glob of magma:
JC> and jolted it a couple of degrees off it's current axis of rotation
See?
JC> the water in the oceans would spill all across the continents
JC> at Everest-height.
rc> Such charming make-believe.
Not only that, he contradicts his own mythologies.
~*~ "You were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful.
More wonderful than that of women." --2 Samuel 1:26
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 13 Jan 94 10:42:35
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REPLY: 1:202/1312 2d21a883
PID: FM 2.02
It could also be argued successfully from the other side of the coin. Which
i
s also exactly what he wants, by the way.
~*~ though we do not accept homosexuals into the church
that does not make us bigots - Dan Lafferty
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Jesse sees demons everywhere he turns
Date: 13 Jan 94 10:45:21
--------
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REPLY: 1:135/71 b686c05e
PID: FM 2.02
SQ> We're unravelling your clown suit right now,
jcj> Is this one of those damning points that I'm supposed to respond to?
It's merely a suggestion to go see your tailor.
~*~ You can UV irradiate a cockroach all day long and all
you'll have is a warm cockroach. - Marty Leipzig
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Demons all around Jesse trying to get him!
Date: 13 Jan 94 10:48:34
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REPLY: 1:135/71 b686c05e
PID: FM 2.02
jcj> Your predictions of my departure suggest you want me to leave,
jcj> which suggests you are afraid that the Spirit of the Lord might
jcj> actually speak to you if Christians are permitted to speak to you.
While there is zero chance of myths talking to the better educated, you
procee
d from an groundless and unwarranted assumption: There are no Christians
in t
his forum.
~*~ "Onward Xtain soldiers"...like the Iraqi army. - Marty Leipzig
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* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
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From: Fredric Rice
To: Greg Gentry
Sub: Nuke Japan twice (It's the only way to be sure)
Date: 13 Jan 94 11:14:20
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068a62ec
REPLY: 1:280/25.0 2d23d703
PID: FM 2.02
Groan...
It seems reading comprehension suffers at times. Perhaps it is my horrid
spel
ling which is at fault. Here goes exactly nothing:
FR>> The nuclear bomb was undefendable and devistating.
gg>> Oops, this is what I get for entering a thread mid-stream (can one
gg>> do that? maybe mid-waft?). I misunderstood, I think we both agree
gg>> that the US bombing of Japan was unjustified.
FR>> This I do not agree with. The bombing of Japan was justified
FR>> reguardless of the weapon used and, sadly, reguardless of the target
FR>> -- which included civilian non-combatants.
gg> So, do you agree or not? The first quote is you, the second quote is
gg> me agreeing with you, then the third quote is you disagreeing with
gg> me and by extension, yourself!
Incorrect. Step one: Read again, "The nuclear bomb was undefendable and
devi
stating(sic)." It does not say that the use of a nuclear device was "politica
lly undefendable" or "totally unjusified." It says that the nuclear device
ha
s no defense: undefendable; that it is devistating(sic): it visits destructio
n upon the target.
No political opinion was stated. The technical aspects were.
gg> Is the "nuclear bomb undefendable and devistating (sic)?" Or was
gg> the "bombing of Japan...justified reguardless (sic) of the weapon
gg> used?"
You're confused with trying to equate a political and emotional attribute
for
the word "undefendable" whereas it is spelled-out in black and yellow and
incl
udes no political opinion. The destruction and undefendability of nuclear
dev
ices is what is the matter of contention between people who argue about
how un
fair the United States was is its use of nuclear devices.
gg> Hmm...look at that, those came out of both sides of Fred's face.
gg> Wow, what logical contortions he's making! Usually, we newbies
gg> call that a contradiction.
Though I could not successfully argue for better reading comprehension skills
due to my, sadly, horrid spelling, I could suggest that you may merely have
be
en trying to read into my statement a political or emotional basis for it.
Fro
m the technical standpoint, I am correct. From the political standpoint,
war
is war and it doesn't matter what devices are used to kill the enemy. 'And
in
times of war, innocent non-combatants have historically been included as
the e
nemy.
We don't have to like it. Few do. We hold criminal cases against those
loosers who engage in it. The winners don't have to worry greatly about
world
opinion.
gg> Correct this tyro, oh great master.
Let's just see how far this one goes.
~*~ Your immortal soles, corns and all, are in danger of
ever-lasting stewing in the Holy Bile! - David Rice
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Greg Gentry
Sub: Back in the USSR with a little Mao
Date: 13 Jan 94 11:55:30
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068a62ed
REPLY: 1:280/25.0 2d23d708
PID: FM 2.02
FR> Christianity has the proven track record of killing for Christian
FR> ideologies. Can you point to an "atheistic ideology" which was used
as
FR> a reason to kill? Other than in self defense? Or will you pull a
FR> McCarthyism with Jesse and claim that an economics-oriented government
FR> which demanded a lack of deity beliefs are themselves a deity-oriented
FR> ideology?
gg> Yes, I can point to an "atheistic ideology"
gg> which has been used as a reason to kill.
This should be highly entertaining. Though it's been done before.
gg> Atheistic meaning not believing in God.
Incorrect. Atheist as in meaning a lack of belief in all deities, not just
on
e of a particular gender or of a particular cult. If you attempt to redefine
the label in mid-stride, there will be CRC errors in the link.
gg> Ideology meaning a body of doctrine that guides an
gg> individual, social movement, institution, or group.
Dividing the terms is an attempt to change the subject. We're talking about
_
_atheist__ideologies__, Greg; ideologies used to support the recognition
of th
ere being no deities, not ideologies held by atheists.
Let's see what you came up with after changing the subject:
gg> Maoism was used as an excuse to kill millions
gg> of people, and incarcerate millions more.
Again, you're trying to change the subject. We're not talking about communism
, totalitarianism, authoritarianism nor fascism. We're not talking
about a political system of economics nor governmental control. We're talking
about atheist ideologies.
Chairman Mao and the communist government under his control did not perform
ty
rannies due to a lack of belief in the thousands of deities posited by humanit
y. They did it for political/socio-economical expedients(sp) just like
early
Catholicism did (and still does: witness dictates for zero birth control
and
political coniving(sp) within the UN for open-ended populations.)
gg> Tell the people killed and incarcerated during the anti-rightist
gg> campaign that their government wasn't ideologically oriented,
gg> that they weren't being killed and incarcerated because they
gg> believed something different. Tell that to the victims of
gg> the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. Their shades would
gg> spit in your face.
Let's see if you can contrive an atheist ideology which has been used as
a rea
son to kill. So far, you have enumerated a faulty governmental methodology
ba
sed upon economics and have not listed a single tyranny committed for an
athei
stic ideal.
gg> A cult of personality is a cult of personality, whether it
gg> is Jesus, Stalin, Hitler, or Mao.
And we're not talking about individuals with or without beliefs in deities.
We
're talking about atheistical ideologies. I'll accept a war, a crusade,
a bom
bing... whatever you can find performed by an individual because he or she
was
an atheist following the atheist ideologies.
Any at all... I can wait all day if need be.
gg> And if you don't believe that Mao's little red book was
gg> advocating an ideology, then you really are crazy.
Hopefully you'll have realized that changing the subject is not conducive
towa
rds discussing the subject. Try again?
gg> If you don't believe that Stalin's cult of personality was
gg> an ideology then you are whacked! You have no grasp of reality if
gg> you say that China under Mao, and Russia under Stalin weren't
gg> ideological nations. Maybe you ought to look up the word ideology.
Your reading comprehension problems appear to be the cause of your difficulty
in this matter, Greg. Perhaps the fault is with my spelling; or -- more
accur
ate, my inability to spell well?
__Something__ is getting in the way of comprehension of the subject, here.
gg> And you call me a newbie.
That's quite okay, Greg, you'll quickly learn.
FR> And I wonder if you've been programmed to
FR> believe that Hitler was not a Christian.
gg> No, he was, and he was just as bad as Stalin and Mao. But, you have
yet
gg> to come up with one man in American history that was as evil as any
of
gg> those three.
You continue to play "body count" was a method of determining what constitutes
an evil. Quite simply, that doesn't support your contention. The United
Stat
es has performed the _same_ actions as the old Soviet Union either less
than o
r greater than the Soviet Union as a matter of degree.
Playing "body count" is fine, perhaps, yet we're talking about Christian
ideol
ogies being used to foment tyranny around the world. We're also talking
about
atheist ideologies never having been used for such actions.
My claim again: The Christian ideological conglomerate is the single most
des
tructive force -- historically and in contemporary times -- ever to work
its w
ay over the Earth. You are having difficulty finding anything which matches
o
r comes close to the deadly intent of a theistic ideal; that's not unexpected
as there simply is none.
gg> By your argument ("whether it is one or a million, murder is
gg> murder") atheism IS as bad as Christianity. Is this really
gg> the argument you want?
FR> So. What is the atheists ideologies which have been used to murder
FR> this one? And what are the Christian ideologies and mythologies which
FR> have murdered millions?
gg> Well, the atheist ideology of Mao killed 100 million people.
Nope. The communist totalitarian economic/socio-political ideologies under
Ch
airman Mao murdered 100 million people. Chairman Mao and the government
he pl
ayed for did not do so for atheist ideologies. No one said, "I do not believe
in any of the deities posieted by humanity so I must murder 100 millions
peop
le for it."
Deity belief is a faulty justification for murder. A lack of belief in
deitie
s
is not justification of any kind.
Try again?
gg> And the atheist ideology of Stalin killed 30 million.
Nope. The communist totalitarian government under Stalin coupled with his
fas
cist leanings were the motivation behind these tyrannies. Stalin and the
gove
rnment he played for did not do so for atheist ideologies.
His hatred of Nazi-tainted fascism in favor of his own brand drove him to
purg
es of his military head and, in doing so, allowed for his own undoing.
No one
said, "I don't believe in any of the thousands of deities posutlated by
human
ity so I will murder 30 million people because of it."
Try again?
gg> The atheist ideology of Kim Il Sung has killed hundreds of thousands.
I've not heard of this one yet, if it's an attempt to change the subject
into
the socio-political/economical systems of nations and the tyrannies they
fomen
t like the rest of your attempts, that's strike three.
It kind of looks like you're out at the plate, Greg. Yet at least
yo
u went down swinging. Most just stand their with their eyes closed, saying
no
thing as they strike out.
FR> More to the point: When are you going to present a logical comment?
gg> Here's a better question, when are you going to get an education?
How about when you stop trying to change the subject?
gg> Try reading any of the hundreds of books about the attrocities
gg> committed by Stalin and Mao, and read any of the thousands of
gg> books describing the ideology of Stalin and Mao.
Will these "hundreds of books" point out the lack of beliefs in deities
to be
the ideological groundwork for these tyrannies or will these "hundreds of
book
s" delve greatly into the political and economical environment of the times?
If you bother to review these "hundreds of books," you'll find that you
are in
error. Or merely badly mistaken.
gg> Or read the books and articles that define totalitarianism as
gg> authoritarianism plus ideology, then go on to explain how Stalin,
gg> Mao, and Hitler used ideology to control and kill millions of people.
Well, at least you've heard about totalitarianism. Yet it's too bad that
you
seem to equate a lack of deity beliefs with a political or economic system.
~*~ And as you can see, he's simply not up to badgering escapees
while his severed head is sitting on a plate besides him. - Fred Rice
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: OUT OF CONTEXT...
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:27:02
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c4684
PID: FM 2.02
rc> ... "141, 142, 143, 144!" she counted grossly.
FR> "Argh! Ack! Greck!" he said heartlessly.
ml> "Whoops. I just dropped a running chain saw." he said offhandedly.
FR> "I just don't give a rat's ass," she said carelessly.
ml> "Just look at all that waste oil swirling down the sewer!",
ml> said Dwayne uncutously.
ml> ... "I'm going to drill me a well.", said Derrick boringly.
"I'm pennyless!" Jesse said unaccountably.
~*~ Are you _sure_ that your appearance is the real reason for
your enforced celibacy? - jonny vee
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Saturnalia
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:29:25
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c4685
PID: FM 2.02
jm> I just noticed on my "Today" file today is "Saturnalia"... Is
jm> there an appropriate greeting like "Happy Saturnalia"? B-})
FR> From what I read, it was common to wake up, yell "festival!" set aside
FR> the toga and go in search of others. All rather like the will of
FR> Landru.
ml> "You are not of the body. You will be absorbed..."
"You are not the body I'm looking for. You will be ignored..."
Wait! I sense a lawgiver!
~*~ A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle - U2
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: James Conwell
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EVOLUTION
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:32:10
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c4686
REPLY: 1:106/7512 85418fa6
PID: FM 2.02
jc> Buy a better dictionary, then restate.
Coming from someone who doesn't know what a mutation is, perhaps you should
bu
y a better education and then jump. Which you would were you
cogn
ative of the dismal lack of education you currently brag about.
There _has_ been some discussion in the secret Satanic forum about whether
you
go outside wearing aluminum foil on your head to keep those deadly mutating
U
V rays from space from doing their worse!
~*~ though we do not accept homosexuals into the church
that does not make us bigots - Dan Lafferty
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Wayne Michaels
Sub: Well folks....
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:35:02
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c4687
REPLY: fidonet#1:380/100.1 2d24bfe5
PID: FM 2.02
JS> Oh well with homosexuals pounding on church doors and
JS> screaming to the occupants "we want your children, we
JS> want your children".
wm> And I'll bet the guy arrested for praying was with them, right?
He was screaming, "we want your Creamy Ranch Dressing! We want
your
Creamy Ranch Dressing!" while pounding on the church door with salad thongs.
~*~ The sun is covered in bright green puppy dogs.
Martians have taken over the US government. - Kelsey Bjarnason
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: RC Query #1 in the 1990's
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:37:52
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c4688
PID: FM 2.02
RC> My question is about what you may or may not have. Do you, Jesse,
RC> have evidence that Yahweh is any less dependent on imagination than
is
RC> Ciya?
jcj> I suppose you have also conveniently forgotten that I have told you
jcj> repeatedly over several months now that I will not answer your stupid
jcj> question. Once more: your question is stupid, and I will not answer
jcj> it.
Backwards, Christian soldier, running as you flee
from the light of reason, 'tail 'tucked 'tween your knees.
There's a filk in their some place.
~*~ The stronger the supernatural beliefs, the worse the inhumanity.
- James A. Haught
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Internet access.
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:40:24
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c4689
PID: FM 2.02
QT>> Cavness@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu for those that care. ;)
ph>> Cool -- I'm either patrick@is.rice.edu
FR> Expect Internet mail in a day or so, both of you. You'll be
FR> able to see what mail from FidoNet looks like.
sq> I already sent mail to Questor. Nyah nyah. :)
You will _DIE!_ for your presumption!
~*~ Real facts never contradict faith. - Ron Stringfellow (pentecostal)
Which is why the faithful never know the facts. - David Rice
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Guess who's cumming on dinner?
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:46:08
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c468a
PID: FM 2.02
jcj>> This is _so_ _special_, having you two
jcj>> love birds sharing here before us.
FR> Coming from someone who has no knowledge of what love is.
sq> Since Jesse has been presented with two people who don't
sq> believe in his deity, he has to figure out where that
sq> "love" in "love birds" originates.
Oh, man. The clown thought that singing birds were singing because they
were
happy! It is no surprize to see him incapable of knowing what love is.
sq> Am I to assume that his deity makes us do things anyways?
Everyone is controlled by his deities.
~*~ When you die, it doesn't just disappear... that'd be contrary
to physics! - Ariadne
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Illinois Fundamentalist
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:50:47
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c468b
PID: FM 2.02
FR> The court declined to review a lower court's ruling
FR> that the woman should not be forced to submit to surgery in
FR> a case that pitted the rights of the woman, referred to in
FR> court as "Mother Doe," against those of her fetus.
sq> I wonder how many Fundies (such as Randall Terry) fail
sq> to realize that this course sets a little precedent that
sq> may come back to haunt them.
If the child dies, it's the will of their deities. If the child is horribly
d
ismembered and mentally a vegetable, it's the will of their deities. If
the c
hild is physically and mentally okay, it is the will of their deities.
I don't see how a believer in deities could _fail_ to justify their creations.
sq> Frankly, I hope the mother drops dead and that the fetus survives.
We can hope.
sq> ... California foreplay: "Mom? Is dad asleep yet?"
Oh! You've been reading lies about Hollywood parties!
~*~ Deal with it, pink boy. - Crow T. Robot
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Monkey business
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:52:24
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c468c
PID: FM 2.02
FR> She: "Oh, I have a good science background. I'm a nursing
FR> major at [a local junior college]."
FR> She: "Yes, but she's not a monkey!"
sq> This is why I would keep a revolver under
sq> my pillow if I were ever hospitalized. :)
"Now Mister Quarrella, you simply must let
go of the gun so that the doctor may examine
your broken arm."
~*~ A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearanging their prejudices. - David Rice, HolySmoke
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Well folks....
Date: 13 Jan 94 12:58:51
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c468d
PID: FM 2.02
JS> Yes, once a homosexual once tried to rape me in the Army years ago.
sq> Liar. Go away. Your absurd claims don't wash.
Well, a little wishful thinking for Jesus.
JS> Oh well with homosexuals pounding on church doors and
JS> screaming to the occupants "we want your children, we
JS> want your children".
sq> You really are a sick motherfucking asshole, aren't you?
It was his sister, as I recall. }:-}
sq> Frankly, Joe, I think that while you're blocking the
sq> doors from homosexuals getting INTO your churches, you
sq> should turn around and keep a careful eye on the
sq> ministers behind you.
That was my comment as well, There is a very easy way for homos to gain
entry
into a church -- become the master of that church.
Also, every church has variety in their congregation.
sq> ... "Is this sodomy?" asked Tom, half in Ernest.
Stop it!
"Is this called 'rimming?'" asked Tom, tounge in cheek.
~*~ Must go, Elvis wants to use the phone. - Paul Feonic
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Comrade Fredric
To: Derek Clayton
Sub: True colors
Date: 13 Jan 94 13:19:35
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c468e
REPLY: 1:221/279.8 2d242105
PID: FM 2.02
CF> Where are the girls in grass dresses?
CF> Where are the palm trees?
CF> They said there would be palm trees and girls.
dc> Another satisfied customer of Air Gulag!
Are there to be no rye bread, vodka, girls, and palm-trees here?
My glorious leaders would never decieve me so!
CF> This attempt to code morality for this generation and all those which
CF> follow in an unmoving and unyielding message carved in slate is what
I
CF> often wonder is what seculars are 'ultimatly' fighting against when
CF> they debunk a Christian or defend their victims.
dc> The progress of humanity, much like science, has been straining against
dc> the shackles of religion since early man first uttered the word "god".
I wonder if there are scholarly speculations into what humanity might have
ach
ieved had it never invented the belief in deities. I would expect the populat
ion would have overwhelmed the planet by now had deities not be created
as an
excuse to kill.
dc> The tragedy is that we are doing it to ourselves with open eyes that
are
dc> blind to the consequences. When I see my parents, siblings, and friends
dc> submitting themselves to their imaginary god I cannot, as Nietszche
dc> said, avoid a sigh. We know better.
It's the taking of innocent lives and innocent minds that I object to.
I have
little difficulty with adults setting aside reason and rational thought.
dc> Religion has tainted all of humanity. Religion encourages complacency,
dc> submission, and dependence. Religion discourages curiousity, ambition,
dc> and self-reliance. This is ultimately why I cannot keep my mouth shut
dc> to the religious lies.
And the demands for a deadly 'morality' of others tops the list.
CF> Enforced compliance to dogma and myth may well be window
CF> dressing for the bitter center which seeks only to dictate
CF> others morality for all time.
dc> The dictation of morality is only the means to give the religious
dc> power-whores control over their complacent sheep.
It is an attempt to control the unaffected, though, as well as the infected.
dc> Those in control of religion couldn't give a shit
dc> about morality, or creating a better world.
As we've seen. When Jimmy Swaggart is still deified after his exposures,
I th
ink we can pretty much safely conclude that there is a problem.
dc> They only care that their sheep obey without question and
dc> continue sending in the cheques. The clergy of today are
dc> fat from feeding on the fear and insecurities of humanity.
Welcome to the Promethian Flaw in humanity.
~*~ Is it getting better? Or do you feel the same?
Will it make it easier on you? Now you got someone to blame? - U2
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Fredric Rice
To: Dominic Bryan
Sub: HOMOSEXUALITY IS INTRINSICALLY EVIL
Date: 13 Jan 94 13:23:34
--------
MSGID: 1:102/890@FidoNet 068c468f
REPLY: 3:711/927.0 2d2180b4
PID: FM 2.02
db> Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil.
What a lovely hatred Christianity foments in otherwise irrational people.
~*~ Once more: your question is stupid, and I will not answer it.
- Jesse C. Jones
---
* Origin: The Skeptic Tank, Holland, tilting at windmills (1:102/890)
˙
--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Question for the Better Educated
Date: 07 Jan 94 16:21:03
--------
EID:3c75 1c2782a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 7327e2ff
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d2bab9e
On (05 Jan 94) John Musselwhite wrote to Marilyn Burge...
JM> medical profession will confirm that.
No, that's not it. It was specifically some theoretical physics thing.
... Deja Mooo.... knowing you've heard this bull before...
--- PPoint 1.76
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: JESUS SAYINGS?
Date: 07 Jan 94 16:39:42
--------
EID:eab6 1c2784e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 2b6fb861
On (05 Jan 94) Steve Quarrella wrote to John Musselwhite...
SQ> Hwaet, John!
SQ>
SQ> 26 Dec 93, dixit John Musselwhite ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>
SQ> MG>>> tommorow by the Macmillian Publishing Co. It's called "The
SQ> MG>>> Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say?"
SQ> JM> I've been looking for it and have read some reviews and
SQ> JM> articles as well. It should be quite interesting!
SQ>
SQ> Give us some comments after you've finished, eh?
I found a copy of it at Powell's, and I'm reading it now.
... Me knew spell chucker work grate! Knead Gramma Chicken
--- PPoint 1.76
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 07 Jan 94 16:54:22
--------
EID:c1e2 1c2786c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 add862f4
REPLY: 1:134/67.0 2d2bab9a
On (05 Jan 94) John Musselwhite wrote to Joe Schultz...
JM> as reviews (I have one here in front of me right now).
JM>
JM> JS> have paid $100 for it. The book will not "convert" me. It will
JM> merely
JM>
JM> It'll end up being $50 here, probably... These
JM> scholar's
JM> editions will break me yet!
I think it sez $37.50 in Canada on the dust cover of my copy. ;-)
... My three-finger response for tough questions: Ctrl-Alt-Del
--- PPoint 1.76
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--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: CIRCULAR...
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:19:00
--------
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MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2a9414
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Hi Steve...
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Don Martin <=-
SB> "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the
SB> antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is
SB> how we know it is the last hour." 1 John 2:18
If John, Jesus and many others believed the end of the world was going
to happen in their lifetimes, why didn't it? John uses "...it is the
last hour", and Jesus said his would be the last generation. It didn't
happen, Steve... The anti-christ is irrelevant. Their prophecies did
not come to pass so why should they be believed?
John
... The end is ne$@&*^@#% NO CARRIER
... God so loved the world that He made up His mind to damn most of it.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Joe Schultz
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:49:00
--------
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MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2a9b1c
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d2bab9a
Hi Joe...
-=> Quoting Joe Schultz to Derek Clayton <=-
JS> but I continue to study theological subjects; yesterday I purchased
a
JS> book by the title of "The Five Gospels", put out by the Fellows of the
JS> Jesus Seminar. The damn thing cost $30 but I don't care... I would
I'm STILL waiting for it to hit here in Canada... I've heard so much
about it including in-depth interviews with some of the authors as wel
l
as reviews (I have one here in front of me right now).
JS> have paid $100 for it. The book will not "convert" me. It will merely
It'll end up being $50 here, probably... These scholar's
editions will break me yet!
Let us know what you think of it...
John
... ... "Heaven for Climate; Hell for company" (Mark Twain)
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: MAYBE YOU CAN TELL ME
Date: 05 Jan 94 11:50:00
--------
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MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d2bab9b
Hi Steve...
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Lonnie Coleman <=-
SB> Actually, many athiests no longer use B.C. or A.D., and have replaced
SB> them with B.C.E. and C.E. (correct me if I am wrong, you guys).
It should read: "Most scholars no longer use..." actually. They are
universal terms which do not hold religious bias as scholars come from
ALL religions (or none). The term "Common Era" is at least fair to
everyone as it indicates the real origins of our dating system, not th
e
Christian perversion. That's beside the fact you spelled "atheist"
wrong yet again!
SB> However, it would not surprise me if a new dating system starts as
the
SB> world becomes more secular.
The new dating system has either already begun, probably the atomic
era, or is about to begin. As I mentioned before, the next era will
probably begin with the "Terran Diaspora" expected (at least by me)
within the next century and possibly within my own lifetime.
LC>Maranatha!
Have you guys joined the "Friends of Martin Riley" yet? B-})
John
... "Beam me up, Scotty. There's no intelligent life here."
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: QUESTION FOR THE BETTER EDUCAT
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:28:00
--------
EID:e381 1c256b80
50
MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2ac060
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d2bab9e
Hi Marilyn...
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to All <=-
MB> A year or so ago I attended a lecture given by a fellow who had held
MB> a chair in theoretical physics at Oxford, resigned that, and got a
MB> second doctorate in theology. He now hold a chair at Oxford in
MB> theology. He said that the virgin birth was a physical possibility
and
MB> cited some law of physics to "show" how it was possible. Is there
MB> somebody in this conference who would like to hazard a guess which
MB> physical law he invoked to justify his absurdity? I've been wracking
I don't know about what "law of physics" would be involved, but it is
technically possible for a virgo intacta female to be inseminated by
ejaculate during heavy petting sessions without penetration, thus
resulting in a technically "virgin birth". I'm sure someone in the
medical profession will confirm that.
John
... Great procastination tagline, maybe I'll steal it tomorrow...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: John Musselwhite
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: PALUXY REVISITED...
Date: 05 Jan 94 21:33:00
--------
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MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2b320c
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d2bab9f
Hi Marty...
I'm just watching "In Search Of..." with Leonard Nimoy and they are
visiting Paluxy... Good shots of creationists digging around trying to
find "mantracks". According to the story it's now in an area called
"Dinosaur State Park". Have you heard of this? Did they really make a
state park out of it?
At least they mention that some of them are fakes. All in all, althoug
h
they devoted a fair amount of time to Gish and Morris and even
interviewed them and let them make fools of themselves (IMHO) they did
offer REAL scientists points of view and let them discuss the situatio
n
as well. I liked the phrase one scientist (I forget his name already)
used: " The only evidence of humans and dinosaurs living together is i
n
cartoons." He also mentioned he'd love to take a look at Paluxy, but t
o
his knowledge no scientists have been invited to analyse them.
It was better than something CBS might have done anyway...
John
... We learn from history that we do not learn from history.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: TAG: BIBLE_SCIENCE WAS UPDATED.
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:00:00
--------
EID:9d92 1c255000
MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2a8fa0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
* Original: FROM..... EchoList Announcer (1:1/201@fidonet.org)
* Original: TO....... All (1:124/9005)
* Original: FORUM.... ECHO_REQ
* Forwarded by Silver Xpress
* Additional Comments by Steve Quarrella (1:124/9005)
The following reflects the current entry in The International EchoList databas
e
on 2-Jan-94 7:45:13 pm
Tagname: BIBLE_SCIENCE Area Key: BBLSCNC
Title: Bible Science including Creation Science
Description: True Science supports the Biblical account of creation.
Evolution and other such theories are merely unproven
theories accepted by faith of those deceived thereby.
Origin:
Distribution:
Gateways: PRIME Network
# Nodes: Volume: Rule File:
Flags:
Moderators: Steve Winter, 1:18/98@fidonet.org
Steve Winter, 98:98/1
Seen by:
Paths:
Date added: 16-May-93
Last changed: 2-Jan-94 Changed by: Steve Winter, 1:18/98@fidonet.org
-- Steve Quarrella Has Additional Comments --
Hey, get in there!
... Friends don't let friends use Xmodem.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: CHRISTMAS CARD
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:39:00
--------
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PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, David!
4 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad Steve Quarrella:
DR> "Par for the course" in California (men in skirts). What we
DR> -DON'T- see around here very often are women in skirts, more's
DR> the bitty.
Hmm...perhaps they are all escorted home from work when they wear their
skirts?
SQ>> So where do I get one with a basket-hilt?
DR> You have to custom-order it, I suspect.
From whom? Museum Replicas had one for a while, but it's no longer in
their catalog (I could care less if it's a "replica"...it's not like I
plan to use it. :).
DR> Got $500 or $600 laying around you're not using?!
Always.
DR> We had someone here who was fired and escorted out of the
DR> building because he was antisocial and violent.
Too bad the U.S. Postal Service doesn't do this more often. :-/
... Pity the poor corpuscle, for he labors in vein.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: David Rice
Sub: USA VS. USSR IN "MORALITY"
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:41:00
--------
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PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, David!
4 Jan 94, dixit David Rice ad All:
DR> RADIATION OUTRAGE. U.S. government used people as nuclear
DR> guinea pigs. By Deirdre Griswold
I'm going to be interested to see Jesse's "Is not!" reply to this.
... Peter Butterworth fans, unite!
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Starwyn
Sub: HEY
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:44:00
--------
EID:243b 1c255580
4/1
MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2a99f0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Starwyn!
2 Jan 94, dixit Starwyn ad Steve Quarrella:
S> Prolly wouldn't work for me, cuz I don't hate the fundies, I
"No, we don't hate the sinner...just the sin"... I bet you'd
STILL have fun with Doom. :)
S> Jesse is free to ask anytime. I abide by my own set of ethics,
S> and the ones taught to me by my teacher in the past.
No doubt we'll get the suggestions of those learned ethics being based
in Christian ethics (which is true, in my case), while at the same time
those who make such suggestions will simply ignore the fact that morality
is not the sole province of Christianity (Double entendre alert....).
S> I ain't perfect, but I'm honest.
Oh, how hateful! :)
... If it ain't broke yet, let me have a shot at it.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Starwyn
Sub: THE XTIAN FRAUD CALLED PILTDOWN MAN
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:47:00
--------
EID:33fa 1c2555e0
Y: 374/1 12 27 31 81 1000 3615/50
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PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Starwyn!
2 Jan 94, dixit Starwyn ad Steve Quarrella:
S> Well, I was spared that part anyway...but tonight I found out
S> that my Hag-In-Law is in California for a visit and has
ROFL! You picked up on my term! :)
S> contacted my sister and having breakfast tomorrow morning.
S> (Shudder...they've never met) Let me clue you in here---My HIL
S> is a Polly-Anna from the word GO. Even spells out the word poop
S> rather than say it out loud (I'm not joking here)...
Ask my wife about some curious Mormon practices. Pretty sure she told me
that "h e double-toothpick" is rampant there in Utah. It's like the Far
Side cartoon with the dog wondering to itself "Why are they spelling
food instead of just saying it?" :)
s> this woman
S> sent me potatoe chips for Xmas and mac and cheese last year.
Whoa, big spender!
S> waers large costume jewelry and floral patterned clothes with
S> fake mink coats and boots. Got the picture set in your head?
Have you ever seen WOMEN ON THE VERGE OF A NERVOUS BREAKDOWN? Sounds like
one of the characters therein.
S> My skin is cold and clammy at the thought of it all. I think my
S> voice mail will be picking up the phone tomorrow....(yeah, I'll
S> admit it...I'm chicken.)
We screen our calls...have no fear. :)
... Illiterate? Write for FREE help.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: CHRISTMAS CARD
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:50:00
--------
EID:23f5 1c255640
27 31 81 1000 3615/50
MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2a9b58
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Marilyn!
31 Dec 93, dixit Marilyn Burge ad Steve Quarrella:
MB> The important thing to remember is that he was only there
MB> because the State requires it.
I should have done the ceremony m'self (Can one do that?). "Do you, Steve,
take Suzy" "Why yes, I do" "OK, you're hitched. May Dopefish not pee in your wheaties."
MB> your hearts, and the incantations that took place have nothing
MB> to do with the validity of the marriage, or in its durability.
It would have been nice, though, if he had picked up on the LIFE OF BRIAN
reference. I rather hoped he would. :)
MB> I would think that rather than pocketing the $25 you could
MB> have sold tickets and parlayed it into much dinero, had he
MB> gone into holy roller mode. 8-)
Hey, that was five slabs of prime rib... :)
MB> ... Deja Mooo.... knowing you've heard this bull before...
Now THAT is good. :)
... To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: BACKWARDS MASKING
Date: 05 Jan 94 10:52:00
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MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2a9bd0
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Marilyn!
31 Dec 93, dixit Marilyn Burge ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> So tell me the details on this IRS thing...why is the IRS just now
SQ>> becoming interested in his shenanigans?
We can but hope that the IRS really cracks down on these people, with some
serious documentation so that they can't holler "Persecution!"
MB> I looked through all the unbundled old papers we have, and I
MB> couldn't find the article. As best I can remember, part of
MB> the charges involved snookering the networks into free airtime
MB> under the public service policy when, in fact, he used the
MB> time to further his political ambitions.
Ah, good. That's what I thought it was. Although I haven't watched Pat
in
about a year, I remember watching him during his so-called presidential
bid, wondering how he was getting away with politicking with all that
free airtime. I hope he coughs up a lot of bucks...
... You don't go to Denny's: You end up there.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 05 Jan 94 11:06:00
--------
EID:a9ca 1c2558c0
MSGID: 1:374/1 2d2a9f18
PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Marilyn!
1 Jan 94, dixit Marilyn Burge ad Steve Bedard:
MB> ... My mind is my own church. THAT is what I'll use. Thomas
MB> Paine
Didn't _I_ say "THAT is what I'll use."? Paine gets the credit for the
first sentence. :)
... Try the new Ranch Davidian dressing: Fifteen nuts and spices.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: MONKEY WRENCHING
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:36:00
--------
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PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Marty!
2 Jan 94, dixit Marty Leipzig ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> Hwaet, Marty!
ML> Fweet! You and your own selves.
Actually, it should be an f > h change (which is well documented in the
development of Spanish. OSp. "fazer", ModSp "hacer")
SQ>> Have you really had people mess with your shit because they read his
SQ>> books?
ML> It would seem so. I really roared at Hayduke's books until
ML> some of that same shit he described started happening to my
ML> locations.
There's some shit in there that comes out of MY repertoire, in fact, but
none of the really destructive sense. I'm more of a "Play the mark off
against another mark" person, with the only problem with that is that I
generally don't get to see the fireworks. :) Vandalism is out.
ML> I posted large day-glow signs all around warning "DANGER!
ML> ELECTROCUTION HAZARD! FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, STAY THE FUCK
ML> AWAY!" (That's really what they said. My sign painter has
So after the guy got burned, did you ask his attorney why his client ignored
the sign and touched the set-up anyways?
... "I don't need your war machines, I don't need your ghetto scenes."
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Robert Curry
Sub: HOMOSEXUALITY IS DIFFERENT
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:37:00
--------
EID:2a11 1c256ca0
374/1
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PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Robert!
2 Jan 94, dixit Robert Curry ad Dominic Bryan:
RC> Relatively uncommon, perhaps, but quite natural. You might say
RC> with just as little sense that left-handed acts are "unnatural."
Indeed...they're downright sinister. ;-)
... Drink Canada Dry! Maybe you can't, but it's fun trying!
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: ATHEISTS DO GOOD
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:40:00
--------
EID:0c3b 1c256d00
BY: 374/1 12 17 31 38 48 73 88 1000 3615/50
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PID: SX4.00P/5.00M1 BT026
Hwaet, Martin!
2 Jan 94, dixit Martin Goldberg ad Jesse C. Jones:
MG> ten per cent of my time, but I am involved in youth oriented
MG> services.
The same youth-oriented services that pay homage to his deity in their
oath? I haven't been active in several years, but I spent much of my time
as an Assistant Scoutmaster contributing towards their cause.
... 750 megahertz...or bust!
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: THE END IS NEAR
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:42:00
--------
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Hwaet, Martin!
2 Jan 94, dixit Martin Goldberg ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> I didn't see it either. Weird. In any event, I'm slowly
SQ>> changing my SQUISH.CFG to strip the private flag from all
SQ>> inbound echomail. :)
Frankly, I thought that Maximus would strip the private flag in a
"Public Only" area. It seems to just ignore it. Squish, on the other
hand, is faithfully stripping private flags...I just haven't had a chance
to
set it up for each of my message areas.
... "Spiritus sanctus, anno anno mundi..."
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: BACK IN THE USSR
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:43:00
--------
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Hwaet, Martin!
2 Jan 94, dixit Martin Goldberg ad Steve Quarrella:
MG> You may be interested to know that Mindless Chatter (Worst Echo
MG> in Fidonet ) has an annual get togther and will be here
MG> this summer.
We've been invited to the ByteBrothers gathering up in Wichita in May...they
seem to LOVE Randall Terry...maybe he'll come back.
MG> the only consensus that I can get is that they want to see Dealy Plaza.
Maybe they'll all film their own death scenes or something. :)
... Valencia: Served in an iron skillet because it's dangerous.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: HEY
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:45:00
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Hwaet, John!
1 Jan 94, dixit John Musselwhite ad Suzy Quarrella:
-=>> Quoting Suzy Quarrella to Starwyn <=-
JM> Congratulations! This is the first post I've seen with
JM> your new name... how does it fit? B-})
Well damned if I can find a copy of Creedence Clearwater Revival's
CHRONICLE, now that I really need it. [Think about it for a second.
First track. :) ]
SQ>> your hair. I saw your .GIF and I don't want Steve getting any ideas.
JM> So... when do we see YOUR GIF?
I'll have to bring some photos tomorrow night when I see Liar Marty and
Liar Lou Dripkin. :)
... COFFEE.CUP empty: Operator shelled out to kitchen
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Styx Allum
Sub: MANSON FINDS THE LORD GOD
Date: 05 Jan 94 13:56:00
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Hwaet, Styx!
26 Dec 93, dixit Styx Allum ad Steve Quarrella:
>> Correction: Ritchie Blackmore is God. :)
SA> Blasphemy! Vernon Reid is the Devil,
Hardly. If only he were that good.
SA> and Steve Vai is the guitar god. (Not a bad combo, eh?)
Nope. Blackmore. "My god's better than your god, my god's better
than yours..."
SA> (Satriani is merely a good impersonator)
He's impersonating Ritchie Blackmore right now, in fact, on the last leg
of Purple's European tour. Shame.
SA> * Origin: Neil Peart is the god of percussion. (1:152/20)
Nope. Keith Moon. :)
... Incest is a game the whole family can play.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Styx Allum
Sub: NUN BETTER
Date: 05 Jan 94 14:08:00
--------
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Hwaet, Styx!
1 Jan 94, dixit Styx Allum ad Starwyn:
SA> Okay, let's get this year off to a good start with a bad joke:
SA> Four nuns died in a car crash.
I'll call and raise your joke:
Three nuns reached the pearly gates after death. St. Peter decided that
they weren't ready to pass into Heaven, but he said "I'll send you back
as
any person of your choosing." The first nun indicated that she wanted to
go back as Marilyn Monroe. St. Peter went into the back room, and quickly
returned. "OK, you're going back as Marilyn Monroe." , she was
gone.
The second nun indicated that she wanted to go back as Greta Garbo.
St. Peter again disappeared to look up the stats on Greta Garbo, and again,
he returned after a short time and said "OK, I found Greta Garbo... you're
off."
The third nun indicated that she wanted to go back as Sarah Pippeleen.
St.
Peter once again vanished, but this time, he didn't reappear right away.
The third nun wondered if she had been forgotten, when Peter finally appeared
with a semi-irritated look on his face.
"Sorry, sister...that was the SAHARA PIPELINE that hundreds of men laid
in
just a few weeks."
... Vultures only fly with carrion luggage.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: TAG: BIBLE_NEWS WAS UPDATED.
Date: 05 Jan 94 14:09:00
--------
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Hwaet, Dan!
2 Jan 94, dixit Dan Sereduick ad Steve Quarrella:
DS> Hehhehe...they probably think the messages come "straight from
DS> the lord"... heheh...
Oh, they DO come from "the lord", but not the same lord that they might
think... :-\
... In memory of Keith Moon.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: HEY
Date: 05 Jan 94 14:11:00
--------
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Hey, where the hell have YOU been? :)
... Finder: Windows with bullet-proof glass.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 05 Jan 94 14:14:00
--------
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50
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Hwaet, Marilyn!
2 Jan 94, dixit Marilyn Burge ad Steve Quarrella:
SQ>> This is a straw man. Any atheist on this forum is going to ask for
SQ>> a visit from your God as evidence to your testimony, and the visit
SQ>> never comes.
Is this so difficult? All we hear in return is "Pray harder! He'll come!"
Hail, hail, fire and snow, call the angel, we will go....
MB> Do I hear an echo in here? or is his statement an exact
MB> paraphrase of what Christian Soldier told me? Too bad these
MB> guys can't at least be original with their threats. 8-(
There's a collective "unconsciousness" in there all right.
SQ>> RB> While there are of course aspects of God which are beyond our
SQ>> RB> comprehesion at this time,
SQ>> Such as?
MB> The whole damned thing, Steve, the whole damned thing. . . .
Such as how someone will so eagerly buy the whole lollipop. Look at
Steve Bedard and his "I couldn't resist any longer, so I gave in". That's
simply incomprehensible to me.
SQ>> one of these three and ONLY these three. What about other
SQ>> possibilities, such as a historical Jesus having been doctored up by
SQ>> past mythology and political struggles through the centuries?
MB> Bite your tongue!!!!
Oh, I know! I'm hateful!
... Detroit: Where the weak are killed and eaten.
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: JESUS SAYINGS?
Date: 05 Jan 94 14:16:00
--------
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Hwaet, John!
26 Dec 93, dixit John Musselwhite ad Steve Quarrella:
MG>>> tommorow by the Macmillian Publishing Co. It's called "The
MG>>> Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say?"
JM> I've been looking for it and have read some reviews and
JM> articles as well. It should be quite interesting!
Give us some comments after you've finished, eh?
... My parents looted L.A. and all I got was this stupid tagline.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 05 Jan 94 14:17:00
--------
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Hwaet, Patrick!
3 Jan 94, dixit Patrick Humphrey ad Rob Bamford:
PH> ... G'day, mate...throw another fundy on the barbie!
Hee hee hee.
... Would a bullfighter with acne have Oil of Ole'?
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Lonnie Coleman
Sub: TRIVIAL THINGS
Date: 05 Jan 94 14:18:00
--------
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Hwaet, Lonnie!
3 Jan 94, dixit Lonnie Coleman ad Robert Curry:
->> As the Gregorian calendar has come into common international usage,
->> the year has become referred to as 1993 C.E. (year 1993 of the Common
->> Era). But does it really matter? What do you call the days of the
LC> 1st... 2nd... 3rd... 4th... 5th... 6th... and Sabbath
You're Portuguese, then?
You've evaded the question. Why is it that the Fundamentalist will ask
the serious question, and then when answered, become all smiles and laughs
when he is asked a serious question in return?
... "I've Been Working on the Railroad": Dinah WHO?
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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From: Steve Quarrella
To: Jesse C. jones
Sub: GUESS WHO'S COMING TO DINNER?
Date: 05 Jan 94 14:35:00
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3 Jan 94, dixit Jesse C. Jones ad Suzy Quarrella:
SQ>> My family has NEVER asked Steve about his beliefs.
This will be an interesting conversation when it finally happens.
JC> your family was Mormon. Steve has only referred to them
JC> as Christians, who reject him because he does not believe
JC> in their God.
No, you weren't reading. They don't know that I'm not a Catholic, for
example. Simply because I do not subscribe to THEIR particular version
of
Christianity is part of the problem (also that my wife does not subscribe
is a matter of discussion). I'm going to be interested, now that we're
married, as to what kind of rationalization will be made for attempts to
control our sexual behaviour.
JC> I know very little about Mormonism, but my
JC> impression is that it is narrow-minded.
When you claim that someone has to be a member of your club to be
joyful or thankful, then you are as narrow-minded as they.
SQ>> Why should I
SQ>> deprive myself of a wonderful life with him becaue of a few small
SQ>> differences?
JC> Well, experts on marital relationships say that religious
JC> differences are usually either resolved by abandoning
JC> religious faith, or tear apart the marriage.
Frankly, I don't give a shit about Suzy's religious beliefs, and am unaware
of what they are, for the most part. Fighting over such a stupid thing
as
religion or lack thereof is ridiculous...have you ever heard of Belfast
or the Middle East?
You really did fail to answer the question, or at least you failed to
understand it. The point is "Why should Suzy not marry the person she loves
because he's not a member of the cult to which her family belongs?" They
would prefer that she marry some Mormon guy who doesn't give a shit about
her rather than have her marry me, some "heathen" who DOES care." It's
like
my old Italian aunts saying "You'll marry a nice Italian girl someday",
as
if that "Italian" made everything alright (in fact, my "wife" in my high
school marriage course was Italian...didn't care for her at all).
SQ>> I used to be rather intolerant and inflexible because of my religion.
JC> I'm happy for you that you overcame that.
Watch and learn.
SQ>> I felt that
SQ>> other people were "bad" just because they didn't belong to my faith.
Rather like "You cannot be truly happy without my deity", mayhaps?
JC> Very true, and an important lesson to learn, I agree.
Watch and learn.
JC> I even acknowledge that there are atheists who are "good
JC> people."
Now it's up to you to figure out WHY. Can you do it without invoking
mysticism and quotes from yellowed books?
JC> The primary definition of "heathen" in the OAD is, "a
JC> person who is not a believer in any of the world's chief
JC> religions."
Playing dictionary games like this gets you nowhere. Care to explain to
me
your use of "diabolic", from a few posts back? Not only can I give you
the dictionary usage, but I can tell you the evolution of the word.
SQ>> like my posts before, you probably won't respond. Is
SQ>> it because you can't make a good argument for your claims?
A little kick there, I think.
JC> My appearing in this conference is like running through a
JC> gauntlet. Everyone wants to take a shot at me.
Because, by uttering such lunacies as "Atheists are unable to be thankful",
you not only don a large target, but also put a "Kick me" sign on your
back. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime (Since you seem to
enjoy quotes so much.).
... Wesley Crusher, please report to airlock five!
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.00P BT026
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: DIVERS WEIGHTS
Date: 05 Jan 94 15:35:00
--------
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Hwaet, John!
1 Jan 94, dixit John Musselwhite ad All:
JM> along to his B.I.L.. The quote was Deuteronomy 25:13 which
JM> states in the KJV that "Thou shalt not carry divers weights
JM> in your bag" (or something similar... I'd have to look it
Have you ever seen the one Red Dwarf episode where Rimmer explains that
his
family were Seventh Day Advent Hoppists, because there was a typo in their
Bible to the effect of "Faith, hop, and charity...and the greatest of these
is hop". Rimmer goes on to tell how he and his family had to spend Sunday
hopping around because of the dictums of one little book. :)
... The lab called...your brain is ready.
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From: Marshall Shapiro
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Religon
Date: 07 Jan 94 10:39:11
--------
EID:9cf4 1c2754e0
MSGID: 1:250/636@fidonet.org 138f1f90
MB* "By their fruits ye shall know them."
I totally agree. I know someone who doesn't have the personality of a
grape and has the disposition of a lemon. I know someone else who's a
real peach and has a plum job.
,\\
* 1st 1.01 #1024 * If you knew sushi like I know sushi ...
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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From: C. J. Henshaw
To: All
Sub: The bullshit never stops on the PRIME network
Date: 06 Jan 94 15:21:00
--------
EID:c04d 1c267aa0
MSGID: 1:250/820 2d2c731e
Please spread this info around. Thanks!!
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Moderator/founder HOLY_BILE (The Wholly Stupidity Echo)
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=
WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING
WARNIN
G
This is a work of fiction. Any resembelence between to people or events
past
or present is purly coincedental.
WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING
WARNIN
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C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: jonny vee
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 07 Jan 94 02:51:00
--------
EID:f8d6 1c271660
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0382214e
PID: FM 2.02
> jv> I was wondering who would be stepping onto the chopping block
> jv> now that Stewart Harris, Bill Wolff, and Ron Strangefellow have
> jv> faded away.
> Nature abhors a vacuum,
That's why even technopagan witches ride brooms.
> and there will be plenty of new people
> donning the
> same old clown suit to replace them, rest assured. Looks like Marty
> Leipzig
> has caught himself a live one in the form of James Conwell.
I was thinking that Steve Bedard was the fresh meat this time, but I guess
he'
s already been around for a while. ANd then we appear to have a few who
left
before but have come back for more, as well as a few last fading dribblings
fr
om some who can't seem to make a clean break.
Does any of this remind you of addictive behavior? Perhaps some psych grad
st
udents should be invited to come in here and do theses on fundies who are
addi
cted to The 'Smoke. When they write books about it, we can quote them here
an
d speculate on the true identities of the case histories (One of the more
curi
ous was the one we'll call "Howard"....).
> jv> Looks like this little christian soldier is going
> jv> to be a real warrior for the lord, don't you think?
> "When the going gets tough, the tough go and have a little cry in the
> corner."
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
--Hunter Thompson
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Brian Newman
Sub: True colors
Date: 07 Jan 94 15:38:00
--------
EID:7510 1c277cc0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 038f40f8
REPLY: 1:105/69.0 2d2c3b84
PID: FM 2.02
> DR> I believe that they actually -DO- have our best interests at heart,
> DR> but they do not understand that most of us are old enough to look
> DR> out for ourselves, thankyouverymuch, and don't appreciate their
> DR> attempts to "help" us. They believe they are saving everyone from
> DR> drowning, even though there's no water anywhere. They believe they
> DR> "know best" and everyone is less enlightened than they.
> Yes, but if they were all so good-hearted and honest, wouldn't they
> stop and
> say, "Hmm, yeah, you may be right" when we say how much their
> attempts to
> mandate their morality is bigoted fascism? They don't do that,
> however; they
> just keep on going with it, without even taking a split second to
> think about
> what *WE* have to say.
They just can't accept the possibility that their morality is bigoted; to
them
, it is THE TRUTH, and if you speak against that, you must be either misled
or
evil.
> I can't believe that every single person is that dumb, so I must
> assume that
> they are that evil.
No, they're just that committed to their delusions.
jv
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Don Martin
To: David Rice
Sub: Camels Kills
Date: 8 Jan 94 08:07:53
--------
EID:e33c 1c2840e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d2eb03b
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d284af8
A pregnant pause ensued as David Rice shared a conception -- Camels Kills
-- w
ith Fredric Rice on 03 Jan 94 11:42:
DR> "Nine out of ten Muslims who try Camels prefer women."
As do the camels.
---
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From: Don Martin
To: Dave Keeton
Sub: Proof
Date: 8 Jan 94 08:28:26
--------
EID:0ea2 1c284380
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d2eb561
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:3406/27 52c7d4c2
A pregnant pause ensued as Dave Keeton shared a conception -- Proof -- with
Da
vid Worrell on 04 Jan 94 04:30:
DK> Those of us who
DK> believe the Bible and are convinced that God does exsist, are not
DK> always on the defensive.
Most such are, in fact, pretty offensive. Particularly when they pontifi
cate without quoting.
---
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From: Don Martin
To: David Rice
Sub: Adam...
Date: 8 Jan 94 10:34:51
--------
EID:08e9 1c285440
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d2ed379
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2caf02
A pregnant pause ensued as David Rice shared a conception -- Adam... --
with J
ohn Musselwhite on 06 Jan 94 19:38:
DR> She also noted that the Catholic Church has lost 25% of its clergy
DR> within the last 20 years. (She was a nun.)
The last I heard, the Catholics in this country were getting two new cler
gypersons for every three that retired, died or got kicked out for altarboy
ro
gering. It is rumored (but stoutly denied by those institutions) that the
sta
ndards at the seminaries have been lowered to retain the more poorly prepared
candidates they are accepting to fill up the space.
---
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From: Don Martin
To: David Worrell
Sub: Good?
Date: 8 Jan 94 10:47:10
--------
EID:1751 1c2855e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d2ed5be
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as David Worrell shared a conception -- Good? --
with
Steve Bedard on 04 Jan 94 08:20:
> SB> not do good as God sees good unless they do it in the power of the
> SB> Holy Spirit.
DW>
DW> Let me get this straight. If I, as a non-christian, save your life
DW> tomorrow, then I have performed an evil act in the eyes of God????
Think about it. Would YOU want this guy acting as YOUR self-appointed sp
okesman?
---
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From: Don Martin
To: Stephen Lochmiller
Sub: ADAM...
Date: 8 Jan 94 10:49:25
--------
EID:f74a 1c285620
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d2ed64e
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Stephen Lochmiller shared a conception -- ADAM...
-
- with Martin Goldberg on 05 Jan 94 21:34:
SL> Abraham Lincoln lived, or that George
SL> Washington lived or Thomas Jefferson
SL> lived? Can you really prove it to me?
Given the sort of mental equipment you demonstrate here, it is probably
i
mpossible to prove anything to you. So?
---
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From: EDEK ANDRED WHITEWITCH
To: DAVID RICE
Sub: Those terrible "attacks"
Date: 07 Jan 94 10:58:00
--------
EID:74D2 F4275740
+-+ Quoting David Rice +--------------+
|DRwith: Dan Sereduick and Hector Plasmic...
|
|DR>DS> I never said I didn't want to be here. I just want an idea of
|DR>DS> why various people in this echo get off on attacking people.
|
|DRSQ> For their money, of course - stick 'em up!
|
|DRThe hell with his money. . . . "We want his children! We want his
|DRchildren!" [ala Joe Savelie]
|
|DR--- Maximus 2.01wb
|DR * Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
+-+ Robert Curry replied thusly +-----+
->Men your all so wonderfully foolish!!!
++ ++-+ +
++udie ++ | |ase
+-++ ++ +-+ -'@
sysop emeritius
Under the El BBS
215-638-8121
tagline > >>> Guns don't kill people.. Mailreaders kill people! <<<
* QMPro 1.02 94-7652 * Under the El BBS (215) 638-8121
--- GOMail v1.2 [DEMO] 02-01-94
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: MAYBE YOU CAN TELL ME
Date: 08 Jan 94 06:53:05
--------
EID:c8d0 1c2836a0
Careful Eugene, who gets a blast out of plasma detonics, said to Marty Leipzig
:
ML> Careful Eugene, who thought 2000 Roentgens were 2 rad,
ML> said to Steve Quarrella:
SQ> Tecumque.
CE> Really! Niota, etowah.
ML> Yataheah! Shiechk es?
ML> Estsotsos! Keyosho, shatata.
CE> Eskimo? Give me a break......
Nahhh...Navajo.
Nearly as obscure.
... Geraldo Rivera: Genetic experiment gone bad? On the next Geraldo...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Revenge of the Nerds
Date: 08 Jan 94 11:59:33
--------
EID:0c40 1c285f60
Jesse C. Jones, who gets a blast out of plasma detonics, said to Marty Leipzig
:
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JCJ> You define "education" as the training
JCJ> which enables a bunch of scientists to work for the oil industry!
ML> Got that buckwheat. Tell me, what grade PCDI bit would YOU use
ML> to drill the overpressured Wilcox at 18,000'? Hmmmmm?
Never did answer this question, did you?
JCJ>
JCJ> Where were the historians?
ML> Whoa! I swear! You fundies are the best straight men for which
ML> an atheist could pray! The historians? You bozo. How about
ML> geologists? We're the ultimate historians. We study history
ML> back 4.68 billion years. Next.
JCJ>
JCJ> The philosophers? The theologians?
ML> Unnecessary frills. We tend to stick to reality. Next.
JCJ>
JCJ> The educators?
ML> That's us, bucko. I teach courses in Vertebrate Paleontology,
ML> Archosaur Bioenergetics, and Paleozoology at the local
ML> community college (gratis) and give lectures (which are
ML> oftimes SRO, quite well received and also quite gratis)
ML> at various community centers. I also teach Handgun Safety
ML> at the range. I prefer a Glock 10 mm. automatic with laser
ML> ranging.
JCJ> The psychologists?
ML> Whoever needs psychologists needs their head examined. Next.
JCJ>
JCJ> The sociologists?
ML> Not needed. We were taking care of our own. Next.
JCJ>
JCJ> Scholars of
JCJ> literature and the arts?
ML> Right here, again. Between my immediate peer group, we've
ML> authored no less than 60 articles and 12 books. A good friend
ML> of mine, as a sidelight, is an accomplished artist (you may
ML> recall sometime ago my little squib about "detonic art".
ML> That's him.) Next.
JCJ>
JCJ> You're cracking me up, Marty!
I don't think so, Jesse. You cracked up long ago.
JCJ> I think it's time to come honest
JCJ> and give up this "better-educated" label.
'Smatter, Jesse, truth hurt?
JCJ> Instead, it looks to me like
JCJ> the regulars here are
JCJ> THE REVENGE OF THE NERDS!
Yeah, now there's a prime example of your educational level
and debating skills.
Which begs the obvious question, just who reads these messages to you?
... If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Dan Curran
Sub: HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Date: 08 Jan 94 07:01:48
--------
EID:8807 1c283820
Dan Curran, who gets a blast out of plasma detonics, said to Marty Leipzig:
> Don't you tell me what kind of year to have...
DC> Ok, Happy New Year to everybody but Marty Leipzig.
Oh, oh, oh! Getting exclusionary, are we?
You'll burn in Heck for that, me bucko.
DC> ... What the hell is a "kind" anyway?!
A kind is a kind of kind that follows its' own kind but not
other kinds.
At least, that's what the Creatidiots say.
... Creationism is stuck in a "Morris" of misinformation.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Who does what
Date: 08 Jan 94 11:42:51
--------
EID:73e9 1c285d40
Jesse C. Jones, who gets a blast out of plasma detonics, said to Marty Leipzig
:
-=> Quoting Marty Leipzig to Jesse C. Jones <=-
ML> Let me ask you, Herr fundy-humanities-type. How many pro bono
ML> cases do you take per year and how's the schedule on your
ML> lecture circuit?
JCJ> I don't keep count, but I probably handle about a dozen "pro
[60 odd line snip.]
JCJ> Protestant Appeal.
JCJ> You asked.
Gee. I'm impressed.
I mean, when do you find the time to chase ambulances?
... How do you get a lawyer out of a tree? Cut the rope.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: That enthalpy.
Date: 08 Jan 94 12:00:30
--------
EID:4bd0 1c286000
Martin Goldberg, who gets a blast out of plasma detonics, said to Marty
Leipzi
g:
MG>> time. At the bottom is the same message written in Greek."
MG>> So it's "Demotic" and not "Detonic". Have Jesse sue me.
ML> I like "detonic" better. Maybe we can define detonic as the
ML> language used in HolySmoke to nuke fundies....
MG> Or Demonic? With a Devil-may-care attitude like this, I'm satan in
my
MG> boots waiting for it.
What the halite. Call it moronic, or just a spayed a spayed.
... You'll have to beat a different dog for awhile, I'm headed north: RevRon
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Marty Leipzig
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: The Xtian fraud called Piltdown Man
Date: 08 Jan 94 11:57:27
--------
EID:af76 1c285f20
Martin Goldberg, who gets a blast out of plasma detonics, said to Marty
Leipzi
g:
MG>> He's somewhat blurry about what a real nutageniser is.
ML> He's somewhat blurry as to what reality is.
MG> Conwell has taken the proverbial Hoysmoke Powder. Take one and your
MG> headache goes away.
Funny thing...it's transcendental. He takes one and disappears.
MG>> Parthogenesis my ass...I thought you were talking about
MG>> Virgin Birth. Are those lizards MARRIED?
ML> Whoops. Now that you mention it, they were just shacking
ML> up....
MG> I guess that all the dinosaurs are in Hell.....
Close. Hell Creek.
(Howling at the geofunny just created...trust me, it's a
thighslapper...)
... A man who turns green has eschewed protein.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Careful Eugene
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Sheeze
Date: 08 Jan 94 07:06:32
--------
EID:27ea 1c2838c0
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d2ea1c8
ML> Telca Mousef, who thought 2000 Roentgens were 2 rad,
ML> said to Steve Quarrella:
ML> "Telca", you old reprobate. Long time, no see. Welcome back.
ML> We've got a few new fundies merrily roasting over the coals just
ML> waiting for someone to launch a distillation tower their way...
Or something more weighty, such as a Westinghouse j-frame. Outfitted with
a flexable hose for inlet gas and chassised on wheels, it would make a most
cl
ean swath through almost any Baptist church, cutting the alter into the
ersatz
marble pieces and lighting pews on fire with it's exhaust gases.
Fortunately, because of the Good Samaratin laws, I will be able to view
th
e destruction firsthand and maintain deniability.
DR>> I Love Steve Winter
DR>> David Rice, user of 1:124/9005
This guy leaves the french doors wide open.
SQ>
SQ> Note that any mail from Steve Winter to this system will be eaten by
SQ> EXCLUDE. I would rather not be included in his lunacies.
TM> EXCLUDE is a program used by people who don't know or cannot
TM> constructively argue and confront others. It is a weakness on your
TM> part that you use such software.
ML> Now, now. Most people can divine the difference between an
ML> extant and extinct equine. Some prefer not to flog the latter.
ML> I, on the other hand, prefer to hand someone a metaphorical
ML> live 440 VAC line when the deserve it...
TM> To beat Steve Winter, you have to
TM> turn his own evidence against him. I suspect
TM> Leipzig would have little
TM> trouble with the likes of him....instead, causing Winter to EXCLUDE
TM> him.
ML> Well, do I detect a bit of a challenge here? I have heard of
ML> this Christian monstrosity, but only in the third person. Guess
ML> I'll mosey over and toss a few molotovs his way and see what
ML> lights up.
In that case, I may just put on my fundy disguise and order them all up.
I
am sure I can drive him crazy with my "errant fundy" rap, but I would enjoy
w
atching him be debilitated in your style. Combine us and I am afraid the
boy w
ill end up in the "secure" ward at Rusk, with his mental equal, George Roden.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Styx Allum
Sub: Well folks....
Date: 08 Jan 94 07:15:48
--------
EID:5c95 1c2839e0
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d2ea3f4
REPLY: 1:152/20@fidonet 01963f64
SA> But you just did, anyway. So does all that handshaking in a church
SA> full of sweaty palms and money from people's pockets. Think about
SA> that for a moment, in case you hadn't before. Some people even keep
SA> their used hankies in the same pockets as their money. [Cough]
Strange that you would point this out.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: Bible
Date: 08 Jan 94 07:17:10
--------
EID:3a34 1c283a20
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d2ea446
REPLY: 1:134/67 2d289394
I suppose we should list our stipulations as far as the bible(xtian) is
co
ncerned, sooooooo
Holy Smoke Bible Stipulations
-----------------------------
1. Egypt exists and did exist during the times the books of the bible
were written. This is a fact.
__________________________
Please feel free to add as you see fit.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Manson Finds The Lord God
Date: 08 Jan 94 07:36:26
--------
EID:6d23 1c283c80
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d2ea8ca
SA> Blasphemy! Vernon Reid is the Devil,
SQ>
SQ> Hardly. If only he were that good.
SA> and Steve Vai is the guitar god. (Not a bad combo, eh?)
SQ>
SQ> Nope. Blackmore. "My god's better than your god, my god's better
SQ> than yours..."
Blackmore would be better if he could get off of that 20 year downer binge
he has been on. I nominate Clapton for endurance and originality....as well
a
s some pretty good re-dos of Hendrix as of late.
Zappa could rip the hide off of all of them, to be honest....if he had eve
r just once gotten serious. He got close with "Too late to save a drowning
wit
ch" but I am resigned that he is about 100 years ahead of his time. I have
see
n him perform a number of times and Zappa is highly underrated as a guitarist.
SA> (Satriani is merely a good impersonator)
SQ>
He's an ego-driven snot-nosed punk. (probably a closet Pentecostal) I have
known 10 year old kids that could make him sound like a beginner. Anyone
who
likes that one must enjoy devo and machinery symposiums.
SQ> He's impersonating Ritchie Blackmore right now, in fact, on the last
leg
SQ> of Purple's European tour. Shame.
Imitation is the sincerest form........alternately, those that can...do
those that cannot...imitate
SA> * Origin: Neil Peart is the god of percussion. (1:152/20)
SQ>
SQ> Nope. Keith Moon. :)
Ginger Baker when Blind Faith was rippin butt.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Re: Assurance
Date: 08 Jan 94 07:53:36
--------
EID:41f0 1c283ea0
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d2eacd0
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d2bbf54
JJ> Actually, scholars believe the contrasts in the OT as well as the
JJ> references to Yahweh-Elohim are due to a blending of
JJ> two religions into one. One of them perhaps from an
JJ> area near India but definitely with eastern influence.
JJ> A person seeking the truth about the origins of a
JJ> religion has to first step back from that religion for
JJ> an unbiased viewpoint.
It was my understanding that YHWH or yaweh is the singular for god and tha
t Elohim was a term referring to a plural "host" as a leader of a nation.
Your mileage may vary.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Re: Question for the Better Educated
Date: 08 Jan 94 07:58:30
--------
EID:255c 1c283f40
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d2eadf6
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d2bbf59
JJ> *** Quoting Marilyn Burge to All ***
MB> theology. He
MB> said that the virgin birth was a physical possibility and cited MB>
some l
aw
MB> of physics to "show" how it was possible. Is there somebody in MB>
this
MB> conference who would like to hazard a guess which physical law he MB>
invo
ked to justify his absurdity? I've been wracking my brain
JJ> The only thing I can think of is perhaps Mary was a hermaphrodite.
There are occurances in nature of unfertilized eggs developing into
embryos. It is rare, and the account I read involved domesticated
turkeys.
I doubt this is the answer to Mary's problem though.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: All
Sub: Hunting rules for fundies
Date: 08 Jan 94 08:05:04
--------
EID:ad02 1c2840a0
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d2eaf80
With thanks to Marty Leipzig:
Saw this yesterday when I got my new fishing license:
FEDERAL WILDLIFE COMMISSION
OFFICE OF DANGEROUS PESTS CONTROL.
The following regulations and bag limits for fundys become effective
with the issuance of this announcement. No restrictions apply with
regard to the use of sporting firearms (including semi-automatic and
automatic weapons), archery equipment, edged instruments, trapping
devices, bludgeons, truncheons and snares (poisonous, explosive, or
otherwise).
LICENSE REQUIREMENTS
1. Any person with a valid hunting license, driver's license,
(or learner's permit), U.S. social security card, draft
registration card, U.S. Passport, Visa (or Master Card), or
alien green card is eligible to harvest fundys without
payment of additional fees.
RESTRICTIONS AND REGULATIONS
1. The use of honesty, truthfulness, and openness in dealing
with this particular prey is not expressly forbidden, but
everyone is urged to exercise extreme caution in the use of
these baits. In almost all cases, the fundy species perceives
these particular bait scents as a sign of weakness and will
attack without warning.
2. The use of currency, or legal/illegal tender is a highly
effective bait, but it must be used prudently and sparingly.
When using this as a lure, it is best to camoflage or
disguise the true nature of the material as much as
possible; using euphemisms such as "Vow", "Love Gift", or
"Tithe". Field tests have consistently proven that currency
or legal/illegal tender is still the best method for
attracting the attention of this prey.
Additionally, while the use of illegal tender is strictly
forbidden under law, it has proven to be even more effective
than legal tender, or other currencies.
3. Killing of fundys with a motor vehicle is prohibited.
However, if one is accidently struck and killed, the
offending driver is required to:
a. remove the carcass from the roadway or thoroughfare
and place it at roadside in a visible and accessible
location so that carrion eating birds and animals can
have easy access to the remains,
b. proceed to the nearest car wash, and quickly remove
the attached offal from the vehicle. This procedure is
to insure that no hazardous (and unsightly)
contaminants are remaining, which might cause public
infections or further pollute the environment, and
c. to report the incident to the local pest control board
to be eligible for collecting a possible bounty.
4. Due to the expense and hazardous nature of the activity
pertaining to the hunter, it is currently unlawful to chase,
herd, or harvest fundys from a helicopter or fixed-wing
aircraft. However, using horses or any wheeled or tracked
land vehicle is legal, and encouraged.
5. It is considered entrapment, and thereby illegal to use
illegal drugs, and/or male and female prostitutes to lure or bait
fundys. However, it is legal to hunt them within the vicinity
of their natural habitats; such as: whorehouses, bars, seedy
motels, or mountains in Turkey.
6. Those in possession of a stuffed/mounted fundy must have a
current and valid health department inspection sticker that
certifies the taxidermied trophy has been inspected and found
free of rabies, venereal diseases, and/or other communicable
diseases, or vermin.
7. It is considered proper and legal to use disguises or
camoflages such as:
- vulnerable females (divorcees, church secretaries, etc.),
- retarded, senile, or aged individuals,
- helpless disaster victims,
- bookies, and pimps,
- reporters (for newspapers, radio, or TV),
- foreigners (with limited language skills),
- the poor,
- and sheep,
to lure and harvest fundys.
8. Due to their reproductive capacities and overall
distribution, there is no:
- daily, monthly, or seasonal bag limit,
- quota,
- minimum size requirement,
regarding the hunting or harvesting of fundys.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Chuck Dubman
To: All
Sub: Endtimes / "Bob"
Date: 08 Jan 94 18:47:28
--------
EID:5c55 1c2895e0
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d2f3800
I'm confused. When exactly did "Bob" predict the World would end?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Chuck Dubman
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 08 Jan 94 18:50:36
--------
EID:0838 1c289640
MSGID: 1:261/1093.0 2d2f38bc
REPLY: 1:100/4 8623EE18
KB> Not to mention "Glad shall he be who takes thy little ones and dashes
KB> them agains the rocks". Psalms 137:9, no?
GG> But I guess they weren't allowed to examine the bitz & pieces - as
GG> that would've been considered fetal tissue research... :-)
Think that's bad? Somewhere in the King Jim Byble exixts a passage wherein
Je
sus says (I believe) "It is good not to touch a woman."
And speaking of the good book, I'm interested in primarily the juicy parts.
I
f it's not too much trouble, would someone here mind terribly compiling
an ind
ex of the good parts to save time searching?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Jesus makes a mistake
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:51:10
--------
EID:78a5 1c28a660
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f630e
I found this is alt.atheist
---------------------------
In the Winter 1994 issue of the "Skeptical Inquirer", there's an
article entitled "Global Fortune-Telling And Bible Prophecy",
which had a reference I didn't know about, and have never seen
discussed here.
"In the Bible we find a prophecy of the precise and falsifiable
sort, where Jesus predicts that his return (the so-called Second
Coming) would occur within the lifetime of at least some of his
contemporaries. The conditions for its fulfillment were stated
clearly: that his return would be seen and acknowledged by the
whole world and that it would happen before that generation passed
away (Mark 13:14-30). This clearly did not happen and must count
as a precise prophecy that was falsified by the passage of time."
I read the appropriate passages in the Bible, and it's hard for me
to imagine how one could squirm out of this one. According to the
Skeptical Inquirer article, the "best" explanation is by one Hal
Lindsay who said that a biblical generation is 40 years, and that the
clock should only start ticking the day Israel became a nation (1948).
He has now decided that he doesn't know exactly how long a biblical
generation is, and it's "Perhaps somewhere between sixty and eighty
years."
---
"NOTE: (Secular) non-Christian files can ONLY be DOWNLOADED
by Christians!" -- Quote from the Abba 2 BBS
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Greg Nienaltowski
Sub: Pascal's Wager Revisited
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:51:28
--------
EID:1d49 1c28a660
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6320
GN> "Father, how can you waste your whole life on a mere belief?
GN> There are so many things you are missing and could be
GN> enjoying...." etc. then the priest said: "My son, if I am
GN> wrong, I have but wasted 70 years, 1 life in billions that
GN> don't matter, but if I am RIGHT, you will have wasted an
GN> eternity for 70 years of self-indulgance."
Good Goddess! I would be very hard pressed to cumulate SEVEN
MINUTES of self-indulgence in my thirty-three years of life.
What you fail to understand (one thing out of many) is that
the priest is in fact being self-indulgent himself. He lives
his whole life expecting---- nay, DEMANDING---- reward for
his behavior. He is not just self-indulgent, he is also being
very selfish, prideful, and ecocentric.
What a criminal waste of a life.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Religion of Dan
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:51:42
--------
EID:a198 1c28a660
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f632e
DR> I splurged and bought Hawking's _Black_Holes_and_Baby_Universes_
DR> and_Other_Essays_ on cassette tape. He suggests that all that was
DR> required for the universe to form was the physics behind the
DR> Uncertainty Principle. I can't a clue what he's talking about.
DR> When imaginary time is used, particles can form by borrowing
DR> matter from the future. The mass of the universe is in effect
DR> ZERO. This seems rather farfetched to me, but would Prof. Hawking
DR> lie to us?!
MB> Let's put it this way: I'll take Hawking at his word a damned
MB> sight sooner than I will Swaggart. 8-)
But. . . But. . . Swaggart talks for God! Hawking is an atheist,
and therefore decieving us for Satan. No, really!
---
"Religion differs from science in that you must believe before
you see evidence." -- Steven Timm
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Gotta love it!
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:51:56
--------
EID:f9ac 1c28a660
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f633c
>DR> I found the following quote, and laughed my balls off.
>DR>
>DR> "In addition to a firm commitment to creationism and to
>DR> full Biblical inerrancy and authority, the ICR Graduate
>DR> School is committed to traditional education and to high
>DR> standards of academic excellence..."
MB> I see. Can you say "owymoron?"
Ghods, that hardly begins to describe such deep-seated denial.
The Excellence in Education cult makes a similar statement. Makes
one wonder what the future will be like, if educated people are
not constantly vigilliant. It scares me greatly.
---
"Religion differs from science in that you must believe before
you see evidence." -- Steven Timm
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Assault on Waco, Missing #5
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:52:08
--------
EID:304c 1c28a680
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6348
MB> Number 5 was missing. Can you post it, or will I find
MB> that it is all there and you simply can't count when I
MB> get down to reading the piece?
Oops! I mailed it, honest. I did not keep the pieces--- just
the whole thing: I have no way of knowing which piece number
five was. I can upload it to the BBS of your choice.
I hate computers.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:52:18
--------
EID:0630 1c28a680
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6352
with: Rob Bamford
>RB> also, that the Bible was written by numerous authors (Old
>RB> and New Testaments) over many hundreds of years, yet while
>RB> the majority of the authors did't know each other, their
>RB> writings have stayed in harmony with each other.
Laugh! ". . . in harmony. . . ." Good grief. Guess he's never
read the bible he is thumping.
MG> OK Ribeye...tell us how the great flood occured when there
MG> isn't enough water int he hydrosphere to provide the amount
MG> that your bible says covered the earth.
God did it.
---
"NOTE: (Secular) non-Christian files can ONLY be DOWNLOADED
by Christians!" -- Quote from the Abba 2 BBS
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Yule Cards
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:52:32
--------
EID:7e23 1c28a680
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6360
>CE> [to Starwyn] Nice GIFs BTW.
MG> Too bad you can't see the originals like I can.
Hey, I got to see the ORIGINAL original. Maybe next
year I'll actually stop blushing enough to introduce
myself (I'm shy).
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Gotta love it!
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:52:40
--------
EID:6aaf 1c28a680
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6368
>DR> I found the following quote, and laughed my balls off.
MG> How WILL you ever maintian your hormone levels?
Hey, that's private. :-)
DR> "In addition to a firm commitment to creationism and to
DR> full Biblical inerrancy and authority, the ICR Graduate
DR> School is committed to traditional education and to high
DR> standards of academic excellence..."
MG> In my wildest dreams, I don't think we could be so fortuante
MG> as to get one of their graduates in here.
"Graduates." THAT'S FUNNY!
We could beg and plead, but I doubt they'll show up. They only
have a few decient debaters, and when they debate, the try to
stack the audience on their side. I've got a transcript of one
such debate where the moderator was a Jesusism Fundamentalist
Christian who gave the Creationist full reign on what he was
allowed to discuss, and the scientist nothing but flack for
straying into "topics not agreed upon."
One such topic that was agreed to NOT be included in the debate
was any and all mentions of theology, god, gods, magic, miracles,
and other imaginary things--- it was to be a debate strictly on
the scientific merits, or lack thereof, of evolutionary theory.
To say the debate was "laughable" is an understatement.
One young woman walked up to the Creationist after the debate and
said "I've read these twenty or so books on the subject, and they
provide evidence and, to my mind, proof that evolution is in fact
correct." The creationist answered with "But I need only ONE book
to tell me it is false!" and thumped his bible.
What a riot. I'll look it up and post it here, for laughs.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: 120 Proof
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:53:02
--------
EID:786b 1c28a6a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f637e
MG> Steve Quarrella and I had dinner together last night and
MG> bemoaned the fact that every fundamentalist that shows up
MG> in here as the same tired stuff.
So. What kind of vile potion did you drink? Or need I ask.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Gotta love it!
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:53:10
--------
EID:ffa8 1c28a6a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6386
>DR> I found the following quote, and laughed my balls off.
>DR>
>DR> "In addition to a firm commitment to creationism and to
>DR> full Biblical inerrancy and authority, the ICR Graduate
>DR> School is committed to traditional education and to high
>DR> standards of academic excellence..."
ML> Orwellian Doublespeak is alive and well at the Anti-Science
ML> Fanatical Biblical Propaganda Front.
You mean they didn't convince you?! You're just being hateful
and difficult. Why do you hate god so much? What has he ever
done to you?
---
"Religion differs from science in that you must believe before
you see evidence." -- Steven Timm
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Internet access
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:53:22
--------
EID:6cba 1c28a6a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f6392
>DR> And there are several THOUSAND additional files I haven't
>DR> compiled. I deleted the bible because I needed the room for
>DR> all of my Satanic literature, like [TOS]. There is also 341
>DR> Weirdbase files, which is the whole reason I'm mentioning
>DR> it--- I have SO MANY files that can be used by HOLYSMOKE
>DR> debunkers, it would be unGodly not to share them all.
ML> Damn. Please net me your board's number at 1:106/113.0.
ML> This is a debunkers mine o' gold!
I have printed out this message and posted it next to my computer
so I won't forget it. My BBS is not yet on-line. I have been
spending considerable time compiling my lists of files, and it is
much more work than I thought. I have writen a program that reads
text files and places descriptions in the FILES.BBS file if said
file's entry lacks a description---- I'm currently filling in
the blanks.
Some of the UFO files I have discuss how UFOs are from Hell, and
that space beings are actually demons. GREAT FUN!
I also have enough files to make the most dense of theists wail
and gnash their teeth and rend their garments in frustration,
anger, hate, and denial. ". . . and a good time was had by all."
I'll compile a master list once I'm done, and then see how long
it takes to get the BBS on-line.
---
Earth First! Humans later!
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Calling god a liar
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:53:40
--------
EID:e587 1c28a6a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f63a4
>DR> Goddess only knows what Jesee has in his "mind."
SQ> Pure surrealism.
"The colors! The colors!"
---
"NOTE: (Secular) non-Christian files can ONLY be DOWNLOADED
by Christians!" -- Quote from the Abba 2 BBS
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Harvey_Watch echo
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:53:50
--------
EID:eb3d 1c28a6a0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f63ae
With: Saint Starwyn
>DR> You're quite right: "hate" isn't the word. "Distrust" is
>DR> better. They need to be monitored, for our own safety.
SQ> As I mentioned to you in netmail (and to Martin Goldberg at
SQ> dinner last night), two Christian co-workers the other night
SQ> were gleefully suggesting that homosexuals be given the
SQ> electric chair. It got very silent when I gleefully suggested
SQ> that I wouldn't mind seeing Christians persecuted for THEIR
SQ> "unnatural" beliefs, in the 21st century. I don't like hatred,
SQ> but I have to admit to a bit of hope that the hatemongers get
SQ> a bit of what they dish out so well. The problem is that
SQ> that's what they want (Witness Jesse...).
This week a 19-year-old fuckless asshole only got 6 years is
prison for trying to beat an old man to death with his feet,
because said asshole thought the man was homosexual. He and
his friends go out on the weekend evenings and look for "gays
to bash," which is a very popular highschool activity around
here. They saw a man walking along the beachfront boardward
and past "gay bars," jumped out of their car, and assaulted
the man.
They beat him to the ground, but he managed to get up and run
away. He was pursued to some rocks along the surfline, and was
again beaten to the ground. The bastard who only got six years
in prison jumped up and droped with his whole weight on the head
of the man a dozen times, impailing the back of the man's head
on a sharp protrusion.
The man, who 57 years old Viet Namise (and incedently heterosexual),
somewhat survived, and suffers irrepairable brain damage. One of his
eyes was laying on the rocks, and he cannot see too well. He cannot
work, and cannot support himself and his spouse.
Only six years?!?!?!?!?!? A bullet seems more appropreate.
"Gay bashing" is still a popular highschool pasttime. Hundreds
of citizens were outraged enough to start patroling the streets
themselves, much to the consternation of the police.
---
"NOTE: (Secular) non-Christian files can ONLY be DOWNLOADED
by Christians!" -- Quote from the Abba 2 BBS
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: David Rice
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: New HolySmoke files!
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:54:16
--------
EID:4d93 1c28a6c0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f63c8
SQ> STAR2.GIF 355,665 (597*946*256) Kelli Bradley, aka Starwyn
Pleasant looking wench, eh? She photographs well.
---
"NOTE: (Secular) non-Christian files can ONLY be DOWNLOADED
by Christians!" -- Quote from the Abba 2 BBS
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Morality
Date: 08 Jan 94 08:10:00
--------
EID:1087 0477c260
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d2eb873
-=> Quoting Marilyn Burge to Jesse C. Jones <=-
JC> Ah, but most of us even feel some fealty to abstract principles.
JC> Truth is one of them. Many people, and not just theists, would agree
JC> that "truth" is a value to be cherished and protected even apart from
JC> its utilitarianism?
JC> Do you disagree? If so, why?
MB> I have sort of a guideline that I live by (or at least try to).
MB> While it is only the "first cut" and in no way can be construed as my
MB> final decision regarding the rightness or wrongness of a potential
MB> action, it serves very well as a means to throw out the obviously
MB> flawed behavior before I have time to develop them into more
MB> clearly-defined plans. It is a very simple question.
MB> Suppose everybody in the world did this thing as a matter of routine.
MB> Would the world be better off, or worse off?
MB> If the answer is "worse off," then there is no way I can justify
MB> going forward with my impulse or plan, except with the very handy
MB> cop-out known as "I wanted to do it."
A good start, I think, and even better because it is acknowledged to be
only a start. I think we must always be searchers, and never delude ourselves
into thinking we have found all the answers.
I too think it is important to think globally, and to recognize our
responsibilities to the planet. And we tend, I think, to see the planet
as th
e
universe in which our moral decisions play out, because that is the extent
of
the universe we know. Probably most, or at least many, of us suspect there
ma
y
be intelligent life somewhere else in the universe, and we would probably
try
to include them in our ethical thinking if we only knew who and what they
were
.
I don't want to be like Curry and keep persisting with a question you
decline to answer, so I'll ask this only this one more time: apart from
the
benefit or harm to "the world" as framed in your statement of morality,
do you
think abstractions -- such as truth -- can themselves be ethical goals,
or are
they only tools?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: David Rice
Sub: Selfish Gene
Date: 08 Jan 94 08:22:01
--------
EID:1087 0477c261
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d2eb874
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jesse C. Jones <=-
DR> Many theistic, anti-evolution objectors do not understand what
DR> Dawkins means by "selfish." They tend to erronously claim that
DR> there is some "moral" implications in a "selfish" mode of
DR> evolution. He points out that altruistic actions by an organism
DR> for another are usually beneficial to both organisms.
JCJ> Where do you think altruistic behavior comes from?
DR> [My Opinion Only.] :-) Reward and punishment. Organisms have many
DR> reasons to =ACT= altruistic, but the motivation and intent is
DR> usually selfish. What benefits an organism's neighbors often
DR> benefit that organism itself.
I think there is a lot of important truth to what you say.
DR> Actions that stem from the desire to do good works are not
DR> altruistic, as said actions gratify that desire--- selfishly.
DR> For an act to be 100% altruistic, there must be no reward.
Again, there is, IMO, great truth to this. And although the "ticket to
heaven" mentality of the so-called born-again Christians have sadly tarnished
the Gospel, IMHO, this in fact is also the teaching of Christ.
DR> Joseph Campbell relates a story in his _Hero_With_a_Thousand_Faces_,
Campbell, IMO, is an important thinker, who has had a great influence on
Christian thinking.
DR> The would-be suicide was dangling over a thousands-foot drop to the
DR> rocks below, and the officer was all but over the side himself. He
DR> said later that he was aware that he could have saved himself by
DR> letting go of the man who jumped, but the thought of actually doing
DR> so was immediately rejected. He said he made a gut decision to die
DR> with the man, rather than let go.
DR>
DR> The police officer had a spouse and children, and did not know the
DR> man who jumped, but he was willing to surrender his life and allow
DR> the ones who love him and depend on him to suffer and greive, for a
DR> stranger.
* * *
DR> When asked why he didn't let go of the jumper, the officer said "I
DR> just COULD NOT do it! I couldn't LIVE with myself if I let him die."
DR>
DR> My question is, was his action altruistic or selfish?
Maybe some of both, and maybe instinctive. I think most of us can
identify with the story and with the officer's decision. Isn't one factor
in
it the _immediacy_ of the harm? The most immediate and certain harm was
to th
e
man who jumped. The harm to the spouse and children was not death, and
was no
t
staring him in the face. Probably many of us heads of households like to
thin
k
we're being altruistic by promoting our own well-being and convincing ourselve
s
it is not for ourselves, but for our families. We certainly use that excuse
for accumulating wealth while others suffer.
The officer's sound bite of course identifies what could be seen as a
selfish motive, in the officer's fear of guilt. I'm not so sure I see that
as
a selfish motive, however.
What does Campbell make of the story? And what do you make of it?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: David Rice
Sub: Selfish Gene, Sidebar
Date: 08 Jan 94 08:32:02
--------
EID:1087 0477c262
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d2eb875
-=> Quoting David Rice to Jesse C. Jones <=-
DR> (1) Sidebar. :-) I sailed the Carrabean and spent many weeks on a
DR> deserted island called Ile de Forte. . . .
What a remarkable, and beautifully told, story!
DR> I had gone without food for several days. I had left my only comb
DR> two thousand miles away, and didn't own a razor to shave with. After
DR> a month, I looked like a wild creature that belonged on the isalnd.
Isn't it funny how being without our creature comforts transforms us?
In the aftermath of Hurricane Andrew here in South Dade County, FL, we
were without electricity, running water, public transit, street lights,
etc.,
etc., for several weeks, in the dead of a tropical summer. For the first
time
ever, we all got to know our neighbors, we all had time to sit and talk,
we
listened to the sounds outside. Class barriers disappeared as everyone
had on
e
thing in common -- the storm -- and the only greeting was "How'd you do?"
("Oh, not bad, lost half of the roof and a coupla rooms, but we're still
livin
g
at home!"). But the _minute_ the electricity came on, we sealed our houses
up
,
turned on our air conditioners and tv's, and went back to our isolation.
DR> rumble of waves crashing against the island. I feel an overwhelming
DR> urge to throw myself over the edge. I wanted to merge with the air
DR> and water and rocks, and fly like the seagulls. . . it would be
DR> sooooo easy to take just one more step. I dropped the boathook so
DR> that it wouldn't be bent from going over the edge with me, took a
DR> breath, picked up my foot, took HALF a step forward, then thought
DR> to myself "It must be lunch time--- what I am doing here?!" and
DR> hiked back to where the boat had just landed.
I think all of us can identify with those feelings, and probably none of
us can fully explain them. The scene, as you describe it, is so magnificent
that you are drawn to "merge" with the nature around you. It is, I think,
som
e
sort of statement about, or maybe question about, our mortality.
DR> That night we had a small campfire on the beach, under BILLIONS of
DR> stars. A naked Woman with a tiger walking along one side of Her,
DR> a lioness on the other, and an owl on Her shoulder, stepped into the
DR> fire light and winked at me. She then gave a short chuckle, and left
DR> the light.
And how long had it been since you had had any?? :-)
DR> I just saw a naked Woman with wild animals! She winked at me as if
DR> She wants me to follow Her!" I ran out to catch Her, but She had
DR> vanished. My friend Ron said "Yeah, you probably saw a sexy goat"
DR> and joked about finding me in the morning sleeping with a wild
DR> pig. :-) Needless to say, no one believed me.
And once you got back to the creature comforts, you were able, I suppose,
to tuck this memory away safely as some delusion or hallucination resulting
from the traumas you had experienced? What do you make of this story?
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
* Origin: SOX! Live from Hialeah, FL (305) 821-3317 (1:135/71)
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--------
From: Joe Schultz
To: Brian Newman
Sub: Real unconvincing evidence
Date: 08 Jan 94 11:28:00
--------
EID:0c11 1c285b80
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:114/262.0 2d2ee743
JS> Now, for my personal definition of God: "Any one/thing smarter/
> stronger than I."
BN> This statement translates into this sequence of logical statements:
> God is anyone smarter than I God is anything smarter than I
> God is anyone stronger than I God is anything stronger
> than I.
Greetings Brain. You may translate my sentence any way you so choose.
I
meant it the way I described it. However, for this exercise, I will allow
for yours, though I see no reason why logic should be injected into this
rather infantile vitriolic conference. (Yes, I make an appearance
here once in awhile for the purpose of conversing with your baby sitter.)
ML> Then gravity's a god to you?
JS> No. I am smarter than gravity.
BN> Yet, gravity is stronger than you and is therefore God, according to
> your logical statement. Your statement implied ORs, not ANDs.
How dare you accuse me of being logical! I warn you: You are on thin ice!
I implied nothing; I stated what I meant. But then, I am too stronger
than gravity. I prove this every time I walk upstairs. You must be one
of those wimps who drags both feet when walking. You must learn to over-
come gravity. It is plain to see you have never had an erection. You see,
even sex is a process of overcoming gravity. You have this to look for-
ward to when you reach puberty. Or, in the words of my enemy, St.Paul;
'Prove all things; hold fast that which is good'. ;-)
ML> How about van der waals force? (Oh, yeah? Let's see you hold water
> together...)
JS> I am smarter than force.
ML> See above.
See above.
JS> Ok, brain. Prove to me that force has intelligence.
BN> See above. Van der Waal's force is stronger than you are and is
> therefore God.
See above. There is no force I am not able to overcome. Your ignorance
comes close though.
BN> And, since anyone stronger than you is God, Arnold Schwarzenegger is
> God.
You've been watching too many violent flicks, young fella. I happen to be
230 pounds -- 32 inch waist -- 23 inch biceps -- 69 inch chest -- with an
ability to deadlift 2300 pounds. I will agree that Arnold has made some
better business investments than I have...lately. However, I gave him his
first break in this country: I permitted him to read my doctorate disser-
tation on the philosophy of physics. For this breech of truth, you will
have to take down all of your A.S. posters. You are not worthy to gaze
upon his second-rate body. And...before venting your anger at me, let me
warn you. I am a master in psychological black magick. I have the power
to lock you in one of Chapel Perilous' 50 Chambers for eternity! You, of
course, will challenge me on this. It will be very unwise of you to do
so.
.
Ipsissimus, O.T.O................ .
Ex Deo nascimur. V.V.V.V.V.
In Jesu morimur. 666.23
Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus.
L.V.X. PAX, New World Order.. .
I.A.O.........................
--- FMail 0.96ā
* Origin: The Computer Connection!! BBS - Glendale, Arizona (1:114/262)
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--------
From: Dave Keeton
To: Lit'l Friday
Sub: Sorry
Date: 08 Jan 94 06:00:00
--------
EID:6d9d 1c283000
PID: RA 2.01
MSGID: 1:3406/27 52cd2fb4
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
---
* Origin: Dimensions BBS Salem, OR (503) 378-0825 (1:3406/27)
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: French pigs
Date: 2 Jan 94 06:15:22
--------
EID:d8f2 1c2231e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26adda
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 6802177e
A pregnant pause ensued as Marilyn Burge shared a conception -- French pigs
-- with Don Martin on 30 Dec 93 00:16:
MB> On (20 Dec 93) Don Martin wrote to Marilyn Burge...
> DM> I remember being amused in the early 60's at learning that Billie
> DM> Graham owned no fewer than seven Cadillacs. Apart from striking me
as
> DM> odd that a proponent of an anti-materialistic religion would make
a
> DM> public display of so much wealth, I wondered whether he could not
have
> DM> hauled his fanny around to do the lord's work in seven Volkswagens.
> DM> But such trifling matters are not a scandal.
MB> While that would easily qualify as a pecadillo of sorts, it would
MB> hardly qualify as a corruption.
MB> Not only that, the Bhagwan made him look like a piker. 8-)
Ah, but the Bhagwan does not labor under the injunction against laying up
those things that moth and rust doth corrupt nor under the positive invitatio
n to give away everything to the poor and follow the big guy into the desert.
Of course, deserts ARE easier to take if you have A/C in your caddy . .
.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: POLITE
Date: 2 Jan 94 06:20:16
--------
EID:199f 1c223280
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26ae0a
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3981ff41
A pregnant pause ensued as Martin Goldberg shared a conception -- POLITE
-- wi
th Don Martin on 31 Dec 93 16:59:
> MG>> Geez...why did I have to explain sex to both of my sons?
> MG>> Weren't they born with that concept too?
> DM> Certainly. The conception, in fact, preceeded the birth.
MG> I'm glad you're here to tell us these things. I don't want
MG> ANOTHER birth without conception. See what happened the first time?
Yeah---all the fucking up came AFTERwards.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Back in the USSR
Date: 2 Jan 94 06:21:25
--------
EID:70f1 1c2232a0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26aeb3
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 39820771
A pregnant pause ensued as Martin Goldberg shared a conception -- Back in
the
USSR -- with Don Martin on 31 Dec 93 17:01:
> DM> area apartment, not the one who opened fire on passers by from
> DM> the top of the texas bell tower.
MG> AND, in case you wondered, his name was Charles Whitman. I used
MG> to tkae tour groups on tours of the University campus in Austin.
MG> All they ever wanted to see was where "that guy" shot all those
MG> people. There are still bullet holes in the side fo the building
MG> hwere they shot at him.
And tourists today at Kent State seek out the bullet hole in the statue.
A bit of living history.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Maybe you can tell me
Date: 2 Jan 94 08:15:39
--------
EID:df8d 1c2241e0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26c946
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Jesse C. Jones shared a conception -- Maybe you
can
tell me -- with Robert Curry on 31 Dec 93 06:55:
JCJ> I suppose you have also conveniently forgotten that I have told
you
JCJ> repeatedly over several months now that I
JCJ> will not answer your stupid question.
JCJ> Once more: your question is stupid, and I will not answer it.
His question is rather less stupid than your denial. You are becoming th
e Joe Savelli of this issue.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Joe Schultz
Sub: Real unconvincing evidence
Date: 2 Jan 94 08:24:10
--------
EID:0910 1c224300
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26cb1a
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:114/262.0 2d23553e
A pregnant pause ensued as Joe Schultz shared a conception -- Real unconvincin
g evidenc -- with Marty Leipzig on 30 Dec 93 17:21:
> ML> Then gravity's a god to you?
JS> No. I am smarter than gravity.
Evidence?
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Alan Jennings
Sub: ULC
Date: 2 Jan 94 08:25:21
--------
EID:b8bf 1c224320
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26cc37
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:3800/6 b6153ea9
A pregnant pause ensued as Alan Jennings shared a conception -- ULC -- with
St
eve Quarrella on 30 Dec 93 21:24:
>> Hey, I haven't seen any messages in the ULC echo in
>> ages..did it die again?
AJ> No. But it's hell when you have an echo when everybody agrees
AJ> with everybody about anything somebody might talk about!
AJ> But that's okay. The Holysmoke echo has more ministers regularly
AJ> posting than any other echo in the network!
This is our retreat. Our tabernacle without walls. Holysmoke is where
w
e spread the Good Word to the unwashed. While it does not appear to clean
the
m up much (Savelli remains persistantly dirty despite everyone's best efforts)
, it is the effort, not the outcome, that counts.
Rev. Don
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Inconsistencies #2
Date: 2 Jan 94 09:28:55
--------
EID:56ff 1c224b80
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26dafa
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 b8381df6
A pregnant pause ensued as Marilyn Burge shared a conception -- Inconsistencie
s #2 -- with Steve Bedard on 30 Dec 93 15:04:
> SB> Don't worry about their lists of "inconsistencies". Many of them
have
> SB> been explained away even though they refuse to accept the
> SB> explanations.
MB> So you admit that many but not all have been explained away. So how
do
MB> you reconcile the inconsistencies that have NOT been explained away
by
MB> the apologists, in view of the fact that you insist that the Bible is
MB> true?
Having seen his earlier attempt to explain away the two accounts of the
d
eath of Judas, I can understand why sentient beings might "refuse to accept
th
e explanations." How he deals (if he does) with the ones not yet explained
aw
ay is sure to be every bit as interesting.
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From: Don Martin
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Gif File Of Steve
Date: 2 Jan 94 09:36:39
--------
EID:ac14 1c224c80
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26dc3f
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3981b9e0
A pregnant pause ensued as Martin Goldberg shared a conception -- Gif File
Of
Steve -- with Hector Plasmic on 31 Dec 93 16:29:
> HP> So, Mr. Abomination, tell us about this "good looking specimen of
> HP> manhood" that you've witnessed? :-)
MG> Shit...I have yet to recieve the pic of this specimen.
It may have been the one you thought was a photo of a cropolite sent by
L
eipzig.
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From: Don Martin
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: SURVEY!!!!
Date: 2 Jan 94 09:38:02
--------
EID:0082 1c224cc0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26dc73
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 3981bc26
A pregnant pause ensued as Martin Goldberg shared a conception -- SURVEY!!!!
-
- with David Rice on 31 Dec 93 16:30:
> DR> That's REPROBATE scum, thankyouverymuch.
>MG>> The fiery red hair is much better
> DR> I like them smoldering: they last longer.
MG> "They" last as long as you do.
Longer. That is their tragedy. We don't last as long. That is ours.
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From: Don Martin
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: OUT OF CONTEXT...
Date: 2 Jan 94 09:47:33
--------
EID:79de 1c224de0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d26deb4
PID XRS! 5.1-
A pregnant pause ensued as Marty Leipzig shared a conception -- OUT OF CONTEXT
... -- with Fredric Rice on 31 Dec 93 06:49:
> rc> ... "141, 142, 143, 144!" she counted grossly.
> FR> "Argh! Ack! Greck!" he said heartlessly.
> ml> "Whoops. I just dropped a running chain saw." he said offhandedly.
> FR> "I just don't give a rat's ass," she said carelessly.
ML> "Just look at all that waste oil swirling down the sewer!",
ML> said Dwayne uncutously.
"Space really IS a vacuum!" he said breathlessly.
---
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From: Scott Charles
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: ATHEISTS CAN'T READ...
Date: 07 Jan 94 19:36:04
--------
EID:c0eb 1c279c80
simple yes or no indeed. is that what you want?
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Scott Charles
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: MS IN A MAGNETIC BOTTLE
Date: 07 Jan 94 19:43:57
--------
EID:1127 1c279d60
don't confuse the message with the messenger. stop wasting time with televisi
on logic.
one day i went on a trip out east. i met a man who sold me the brooklyn
bridg
e. Do i now hate real estate agents? Do i hate civil engineers because
of th
is? Do i hate pedestrians on bridges? do i hate the city councilmen and
the
lawyers who had to convince me the bridge was not truly mine? Do i hate
mysel
f?
No.
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Stephen Lochmiller
To: Scott Charles
Sub: ADAM...
Date: 07 Jan 94 21:14:17
--------
EID:9b7b 1c27a9c0
What?
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Jeff Jones
To: Dan Sereduick
Sub: Re: She can handle it
Date: 09 Jan 94 01:30:56
--------
EID:10ca 0661f86e
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d2fae48
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
*** Quoting Dan Sereduick to David Rice ***
DS> Hence, atheism has loose ties to religion, in that if you don't
DS> believe in religion, you are an atheist. If there is no
DS> religion, all people are atheists, andthere is no basis for
DS> calling anyone an atheist.
By this logic, then, black people have loose ties to white people because
they
are non-white. And if there were no other race besides the black race,
there
would be no reason to call oneself "black". And if all musicians were piano
players there would be no such thing as "violin", "guitar", etc. and no
"piano
s"! Everyone who played The Instrument would be a "musician".
Atheists distinguish themselves as a minority by setting themselves apart
from
the religious masses. This minority needs a name, doesn't it?
--- Telegard 2.7.b7a Beta
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From: Jeff Jones
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Re: The Gospel sucks
Date: 09 Jan 94 01:34:25
--------
EID:10ca 0661f86f
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d2fae49
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
*** Quoting Len Ovens to Robert Curry ***
LO> Atheist? what do you believe that makes you one?
More correctly: what _doesn't_ he believe that makes him one?
--- Telegard 2.7.b7a Beta
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From: Jeff Jones
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Re: evidence
Date: 09 Jan 94 01:37:31
--------
EID:10ca 0661f860
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d2fae4a
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
*** Quoting Len Ovens to Robert Curry ***
LO> I have yet to hear any (let alone reasonable), explaination for
LO> life, other
LO> than a creator (you can call this being ANY name you want).
Heh. Divine intervention being a "reasonable" explanation for life is an
oxym
oron if I've ever heard one! Don't you really mean to say you've discounted
a
ll other explanations because you feel they conflict with your established
rel
igious beliefs?
LO> And you call my answers bad, Show (or perhaps shut up )
LO> that God is in
LO> my imagination and is not the creator. I've heard terms thrown
I'm afraid you've got it backwards. The onus is upon YOU to demonstrate
to US
that your god is _not_ part of your imagination.
--- Telegard 2.7.b7a Beta
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From: Jeff Jones
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Re: help for Jesse?
Date: 09 Jan 94 01:41:07
--------
EID:10ca 0661f861
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d2fae4b
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
*** Quoting Len Ovens to Robert Curry ***
LO> (you've heard this) take something that crosses the laws of
LO> nature, like life,
Yeah, sure. "life" crosses the laws of nature. "life", a product of nature
c
rossing some imaginary law of nature. Could you demonstrate this?
LO> is why are
LO> you and many others so interested in speeping God and His proof
LO> under the
LO> carpet? Other beliefs, you can talk about with out emotion, not
LO> God.
Probably because there are still too many ignorant (that is, blindly unaware
o
f relevant facts) people out there who let their religion get the better
of th
eir reason.
--- Telegard 2.7.b7a Beta
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From: Jeff Jones
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Re: Aids Kills
Date: 09 Jan 94 01:43:43
--------
EID:10ca 0661f862
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d2fae4c
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
*** Quoting Len Ovens to Questor Thews ***
LO> Yes, but elements that if they followed natures laws wouldn't be
LO> together
LO> in the manner they are, if not for a creator. I have not yet
LO> heard another
LO> explaination that works. Maybe you have one????
Sure, plenty. But first you'll have to demonstrate how this creator of
your's
doesn't violate "nature's laws". Then you'll have to provide non-cyclical
pr
oof of said creator. Perhaps then your explanation would be valid. Until
the
n, even the one about UFOs seeding the planet makes more sense!
--- Telegard 2.7.b7a Beta
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Stephen Lochmiller
Sub: ADAM...
Date: 08 Jan 94 19:54:06
--------
EID:8cb6 1c289ec0
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 39ed1426
SL> In reponse to MG: Can you give us any real evidence that Cesar
SL> lived, or Abraham Lincoln lived, or that George Washington
SL> lived or Thomas Jefferson lived? Can you really prove it to
SL> me? What would you show to me that would provide evidence
SL> beyond a shadow of a doubt that even these great men of
SL> history lived on this earth.
We have pictures of Lincoln. We have relics that belonged to Washington,
and
writings in his own hand. We have his deeds on record and the results of
thos
e deeds. We have a grave with bones in it.
SL> You would probably say, we have proof by the writings of others
SL> who were alive at the time that these other men were alive
SL> and therefore it is proof that they lived. Oh Really? What
Where is the physical evidence of god. Post it here or begone. Do not
post a
bunch of "histories" that simply cannot get together ont he facts.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Re: Question for the Better Educated
Date: 08 Jan 94 19:56:58
--------
EID:6102 1c289f00
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 39ed16ea
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d2bbf59
MB>> law he invoked to justify his absurdity? I've been wracking
MB>> my brain
JJ> The only thing I can think of is perhaps Mary was a
JJ> hermaphrodite.
Or that the whole thing was a lie.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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From: Martin Goldberg
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 08 Jan 94 20:04:51
--------
EID:985a 1c28a080
MSGID: 1:124/4115.221 39ed2a2e
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2c10c2
MG>> No faith required? Then you must have some solid evidence
MG>> for god's existance. Be the first on your block to provide
MG>> evidence for god. Either that, or admit that you area liar.
LO>
LO> ere we go again..... I have yet to here of a better explaination
LO> for, life, the origin of life, than that of a creator. You
LO> can use any name you want, I use God because thats how I
LO> know him.
You wasted your time replying. Trot out your evidence for god or don't
bother
to reply again.
--- msgedsq 2.1
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Questions
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:22:00
--------
EID:16f7 1c226ac0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae549
TA> SB> Does this include Yebamoth 60b where it allows sexual relations
TA>with
TA> SB> three year old girls? Don't take this as an attack on Jews. It
TA>is just
TA> SB> that I have see some strange stuff in the Talmud that seems
TA>difficult to
TA> SB> believe that it is God's will.
TA> Sort of like some of the stuff in the Christian bible?
Nope. Nothing in the Christian Bible comes close to the terrible things
allowed in the Talmud.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:23:01
--------
EID:a313 1c226ae0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae54a
TA> JW>> 2. Exodus 20:2-17
TA> JW>> 3. Deuteronomy 5:6-21
TA> SB> This is the same list as Exodus 20:2-17. What's the problem?
TA> Depends what his point was. Although I did not read both
TA>passages in
TA>their entirety, they seemed to be identical in content, but not in
TA>form (the
TA>wording, although very similar, was not identical).
Just because they may not be identical in wording, does not mean that they
are two different sets of Ten Commandments as was being suggested.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus Christ is Lord!
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Backwards Masking
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:26:02
--------
EID:cc9d 1c226b40
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae54b
SQ>SQ>>There is a Pentecostal church here in Dallas that looks -exactly-
SQ>SQ>>like >the White House.
SQ>SB> Is that the Trinity Broadcasting Network/Praise the Lord
SQ>SB> headquarters? If it is, you should be able to contact Jeff
SQ>SB> Fenholt through it.
SQ>I have absolutely no idea. I'll try to find out, but I've seen the
SQ>people who broadcast from "The White House", and they are, shall we
SQ>say,
SQ>"unique".
I am pretty sure that is TBN. They should be able to give you all the
information you need to get in touch with Jeff Fenholt.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Our God is an awsome God!
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:29:03
--------
EID:e1fd 1c226ba0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae54c
RC> GG> Another advantage would be the fact that the teddy bear doesn't
RC> GG> tell it's owner to go out and kill people for being gay, Black,
RC> GG> etc. There is no hate in a teddy bear.
RC> SB> The Bible does not say those things either.
RC>You seem to have missed the command to kill homosexual men. Try the
RC>book of Leviticus. Nothing there about homosexual women, though. :-)
You have to look at the whole Bible to see what we are commanded. I am
no
longer under the law. I am to love everyone, not to kill those I disagree
with.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž My Lord and my God!
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Robert Curry
Sub: More Hell Fire
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:31:04
--------
EID:245d 1c226be0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae54d
RC> SB>> However, God is not forcing anything on anyone. It is a
RC>persons
RC> SB>> choice of whether they want to go to Hell or not.
RC> RC> Do you believe that Hell is _completely_ voluntary?
RC> SB> Yes.
RC>If it's completely voluntary, as you agreed, then no one will go
RC>there
RC>who doesn't feel like it. How nice. Sort of like Pittsburg.
It is voluntary in the way that each person has a say where they go. The
only reason people do go there is that they refuse to accept God's
invitation to Heaven.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž In Jesus' name we shall be strong
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:36:05
--------
EID:3afb 1c226c80
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae54e
RC> SB> Actually he said that science has DISPROVED the existence of the
RC> SB> Christian deities the way Christians describe them. Fredric,
RC>please
RC> SB> correct me if I am wrong.
RC>The "great flood" story, for instance, has been disproven (it seems
RC>to
RC>be a ripoff of an earlier tale from the _Epic of Gilgamesh,_ anyway),
RC>so
RC>if your god is defined as one causing such a flood, it too is
RC>disproven.
I am not so sure that the flood story has been disproven. Would that not
be like proving a negative which according to the people here is
impossible. There may be evidence against it, but it has not been proven
wrong. BTW, I don't take the Epic of Gilgamesh to be evidence against the
flood. If such a flood did happen, you would expect many civilisations
to
have an account of it (which many do). Also, I do not define my God in
terms of the flood. This means even if the flood was proven wrong, this
would not prove that my God does not exist.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Our God is an awsome God!
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Robert Curry
Sub: "many"
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:42:06
--------
EID:db4f 1c226d40
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae54f
RC> SB>> Still, many here have claimed that there is no God as if it
RC> SB>> was proven.
RC> SB> Tell me, would you say that describing the God of the Bible as
RC> SB> being imaginary could be interpreted as saying He does not
RC>exist?
RC>You deleted my question asking you to name who is among the "many
RC>here
RC>[who] have claimed that there is no God as if it was proven." Answer
RC>it.
RC>As for your query, a description of something as imaginary seems to
RC>say
RC>that it most likely exists only in the imagination. But be sure you
RC>have
RC>identified just what the person is speaking of. Now answer my
RC>question.
Actually I needed to ask my question in order to answer yours. The people
I was thinking of are those that claim that the Christian God is an
"imaginary friend". While I have not marked down every person here who
has said this, both Hector and Fredric and I believe you have said this.
I am sure there are more but I won't mention any names because I don't
want to accidently accuse someone who did not do it. You can be sure that
I will keep track from now on.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž My Lord and my God!
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: Basis Of Belief
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:45:07
--------
EID:76f3 1c226da0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae550
GG> If your god is so omnipotent and ineffably wise, why does he need us
GG> to serve/worship/grovel? If he needs us, does that not, at least in
GG> part, make him dependent on us?
He does not need us nor is dependent on us. He simply wants to be loved
by us in the way a parent wants their children to love them.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Prepare the way of the Lord
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Questor Thews
Sub: Re: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:51:08
--------
EID:cde7 1c226e60
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae551
QT>This man was never an atheist. He was a theologist, and was brought
QT>up
QT>Anglican if I'm not mistaken.
Yes you are mistaken. The foreward of Mere Christianity describes him
this way: "C.S. Lewis was for many years an atheist, and described his
conversion in Surprised by Joy: 'In the Trinity Term of 1929 Igave in, and
admitted that God was God...perhaps the most dejected and reluctant
convert in all England.'"
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Praise ye the LORD.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Questor Thews
Sub: Re: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 02 Jan 94 13:56:09
--------
EID:cde7 1c226f00
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae552
QT>RB>Thousands of Bible prophecies have accurately come to pass.
QT>Such as? name a few. Verse in bible and fulfillment, please.
Daniel 8:20-25 prophesies the defeat of the Persian empire by Alexander
the Great, the breakup of Alexanders kingdom and the rise and fall of
Antiochus.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Our God is an awsome God!
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Questor Thews
Sub: Assurance
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:08:10
--------
EID:d88e 1c227100
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae553
QT>SB>What in particular made you decide that there was no God (if that
QT>is what
QT>SB>you believe)?
QT>I was told all my life that God(tm) was a god of love; most
QT>Christians
QT>would agree with that definition. I was also told that I would be
QT>able
QT>to feel a presence -- a very real, obvious presence of God in my
QT>life.
QT>Here was my question: if god is a god of love, and I can feel love
QT>even
QT>from my friends, mere humans, then why didn't I feel ANYTHING
QT>resembling
QT>love or any other emotion when I prayed?
QT>And don't be so arrogant as to say that perhaps I didn't pray the
QT>right
QT>way, or I asked for the wrong things, because if God(tm) is so fickle
QT>as
QT>to require the exactly right words ( and so evil as to toy with me
QT>like
QT>that ), then I don't want any part of Hir[sic].
I won't be that arrogant. God is not looking for fancy words. However,
the problem was that you were looking for something that God never
promised. God never said that everytime we prayed, that He would send
down overwhelming emotion upon us. That sounds like church doctrine
rather than a promise from God.
QT>As it is, I feel NOTHING from above. I also see that the progress of
QT>science has rendered the need for any good unnecessary.
Are you sure that you did not accept the scientific view to comfort you
concerning your view of God? Tell me, at this time did you think God felt
about your homosexuality?
QT>QT> And what made you change your mind about who Jesus was?
QT>Because after looking at his teachings(or his apostle's) I find that
QT>while Jesus may have been a rather enlightened and/or maligned guy
QT>for
QT>his time( a sort of Rodney King of the Jews ), he certainly wasn't
QT>devine; seems that God would have done something more relavatory.
What more would you want? He sent a part of Himself to be born of a
virgin who would heal people, raise the dead, die on a cross to pay the
penalty for our sins, rise again on the third day and then ascend to
Heaven. Sounds pretty divine to me.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Grace, mercy, and peace from God
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Questor Thews
Sub: Bible
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:09:11
--------
EID:3c87 1c227120
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae554
QT>SB> But they do provide contrary evidence to what he calls a
QT>"nihlist"
QT>SB>school of biblical scholarship that would claim all events
QT>described in
QT>SB>the Bible before the Babylonian exile are fictional.
QT>Who on earth would say that?
Fundy atheists?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus Christ is Lord!
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Council Of Nicea
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:17:12
--------
EID:7a98 1c227220
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae555
MB> The Bible is a compendium of writings that have been dug up. They
MB>were
MB> voted on as being canon by the Council of Nicea, which was Catholic
MB> (there was no other Gentile church at that time). The Council of
MB>Nicea
MB> agreed for whatever reasons of their own that the writings that we
MB>call
MB> "The Bible" were inspired by God and contained some kind of
MB> indisputable "truth" regarding the Mind of God.
I think you mean protestant rather than gentile. Gentiles are non-Jews
and most Christians at this time were non-Jews. The reason that the
council chose the books they did was that these were the letters that had
been generally accepted as true right from the beginning of the church.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus turned our sorrow into dancing
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:30:13
--------
EID:ff24 1c2273c0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae556
MB> Well, I could cram the phone lines with megabytes of examples of OT
MB>god
MB> telling believers to go out an slay whole civilizations of
MB>nonbelievers
MB> precisely because of their nonbelief, but I won't bother. I'll also
MB> add Sodom and Gomorrah to the list, which the OT god did away with
MB>all
MB> by himself. Your god definitely DOES believe in killing those who
MB> sleep on the wrong side of the bed, and often tells his followers to
MB>go
MB> out and kill people for being "etc." You are either a liar or
MB>terribly
MB> uninformed about the religion you profess.
God did not give the Israelites general permission to kill all
nonbelievers. He told them to kill only those that remained in the land
that was promised to them. The reason they were to be killed was not just
because they did not believe but because they were evil. It was capital
punishment. If they had repented they would have been saved. Any other
commands to kill were only for punishment for breaking the laws. I could
also add that I am not an Israelite and that those commands have no effect
on me or any other Christian. If you can find a verse that gives general
permission for all believers to kill all non-believers, I would like to
see it.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Grace, mercy, and peace from God
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Inconsistencies #2
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:33:14
--------
EID:4e2e 1c227420
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae557
MB> SB> Don't worry about their lists of "inconsistencies". Many of
MB>them have
MB> SB> been explained away even though they refuse to accept the
MB> SB> explanations.
MB> So you admit that many but not all have been explained away. So how
MB>do
MB> you reconcile the inconsistencies that have NOT been explained away
MB>by
MB> the apologists, in view of the fact that you insist that the Bible
MB>is
MB> true?
The only inconsistencies that I have not seen an explanation for are
pretty minor and have no effect on doctrine. Many of them are concerning
only numbers (not the book). I still believe that the events described
in
the Bible did happen.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus Christ is Lord!
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Jesus
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:38:15
--------
EID:5390 1c2274c0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae558
MB> SB> MS>Who lives? Do you mean Jesus? Because he never lived
MB>before.
MB> SB> MS>He was
^^^^^^
MB> SB> MS>an update to several pagan myths and there is no historical
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MB> SB> evidence
^^^^^^^^
MB> SB> MS>of his existence.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MB> SB> There is historical evidence of His existence. No proof
MB>perhaps, but
MB> SB> there is existence even if you refuse to accept it.
MB> Of course there is historical evidence of Jesus' existence. Nobody
MB> here has ever said otherwise.
Nobody eh? Could you please read the underlined sentence by Marshall
Shapiro?
MB> As a matter of fact, TWSS is nothing more than a
MB> bowdlerization of Shakespeare, truth by known, just as the Bible is
MB> nothing more than a bowdlerization of many ancient myths and legends
MB> from many earlier civilizations and cultures.
That is your opinion but not neccesarily fact.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: God
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:44:16
--------
EID:fb42 1c227580
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae559
MB> SB> If you don't mind me asking, what are the reasons for these
MB>opinions?
MB> Well, since I've made several statements, I'll either have to ignore
MB> your question, or else give you several answers. I'll take the
MB> statements one at a time.
MB> > I don't necessarily believe there is no god.
MB> First we would have to define "god" to our mutual satisfaction. I
MB> doubt if we could do that. My concept of "god" and yours are
MB>totally
MB> different.
My concept of God is of a Divine Creator.
MB> > I just don't believe that the Christian god has any validity,
MB> > nor do I believe that a Christian church is a good place to go
MB>looking
MB> > for ANY god of any value.
MB> My experience with Christian churches and Christians in general
MB>(though
MB> I'm the first to admit that there are exceptions) is that they are
MB>full
MB> of themselves and their own "righteousness," with little real regard
MB> for the feeling of others.
I am sorry that you have had a bad experience with Christians like so many
of the others here. The "bad" Christians seem to have the most impact
even if they are not the majority.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž You're the solid rock on which I stand
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Questions
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:46:17
--------
EID:c301 1c2275c0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae55a
MG> SB> Does this include Yebamoth 60b where it allows sexual relations
MG> SB> with three year old girls? Don't take this as an attack on
MG> SB> Jews. It is just that I have see some strange stuff in the
MG> SB> Talmud that seems difficult to believe that it is God's
MG> SB> will.
MG>Great stuff here. Cahnge a few of the names, and it could be any of
MG>the
MG>atheists here talking to you about your bible.
Compare the Talmud and the New Testament and show me how similar they are.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Gif File Of Steve
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:47:18
--------
EID:f0cc 1c2275e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae55b
MG>ML>> Ain't lying one of your seven deadlies?
MG> SB> First of all I do not know for sure that a better looking person
MG>
MG> SB> has been scanned. Secondly, the seven deadly sins are not
MG> SB> from the Bible. Thirdly, I was joking.
MG>Fourthly, so was he.
Fifthly, I still was joking.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus turned our sorrow into dancing
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: God
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:52:19
--------
EID:db44 1c227680
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae55c
FR>o There is no 'God' [sic] within the Christian mythologies. There
FR> are seven deities involved within classical Christianity at last
FR> count. The symbol 'God' applies to four of these deities.
There is only one God in the Christian Bible.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž His delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: One God
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:58:20
--------
EID:cc5e 1c227740
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae55d
FR>sb> However, throughout the Bible, God tells us to
FR>sb> hate sin and Jesus tells us to love everyone.
FR>That's just a little strange in that it is somewhat conflictive with
FR>some
FR>early claims of yours about you worshipping only one deity. Would
FR>you be
FR>willing to count them again and clear up that minor misconception for
FR>me?
Sure I will recount. Let's see, one...hmmmm, well that looks like there
is just one. The Father is God and Jesus is God, the same God.
FR>And don't you think it's the height of audacity to point at other
FR>people and
FR>try to include them in your, well, hateful bigotry?
All I do is tell what the Bible says. People can either believe or don't
believe, I can not force my values on anyone.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Merry Christmas
Date: 02 Jan 94 14:59:21
--------
EID:c3f4 1c227760
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae55e
FR>sb> "For to us a child is born
FR>Quoting Mithratic mythology? Just how many deities _do_ you worship
FR>again?
Still just one.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Salvation and glory and power belong to our God
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Basis Of Belief
Date: 02 Jan 94 15:04:22
--------
EID:23f3 1c227880
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae55f
FR>Though you'll deny any rational comment about your mythologies to
FR>avoid the
FR>pain that faceing the stark reality around you, you _may_ wish to
FR>learn a
FR>little something about the origins of your mythologies before you
FR>start
FR>professing a belief in what you fail to understand. As it is, you
FR>spout the
FR>legends and myths which predate those that you were programmed to
FR>believe in
FR>and you remain confused as to how many deities you are told to
FR>believe in.
First of all, that is alleged origins. There is no proof that the
Christian Bible is based on the mythology of other civilization. I have
looked into some of these mythologies and although there are some
similarities, this does not prove that the Christian Bible is based on
them.
BTW, there is still only one God.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Praise ye the LORD.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Satan
Date: 02 Jan 94 15:06:23
--------
EID:11f0 1c2278c0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae560
FR>least we forget, your inability to
FR>realize that
FR>your 'Satan' god is worshipped only by Christians.
I thought you finally gave in admitted that Muslims believe in the
existence of Satan. You never gave me your response to the quote from the
Qur'an concerning Satan.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž In the beginning was the Word...
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Fredric Rice
Sub: Prove A Negative?
Date: 02 Jan 94 15:09:24
--------
EID:361d 1c227920
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae561
FR>sb> He also claimed that the Christian deities the way Christians
FR>sb> describe them have been proven false by science.
FR>Yes and that's quite easilly tested, of course. You could simply
FR>prove me
FR>sadly mistaken simply by making claims about virgin births or
FR>world-wide
FR>floods. Or by counting your deities again.
But if you can not prove a negative, how can you prove that the flood or
virgin birth never happened, much less that the Christian God does not
exist?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž His delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Wayne Michaels
Sub: Inconsistencies #2
Date: 02 Jan 94 15:11:25
--------
EID:cf4c 1c227960
MSGID: 1:247/133 048ae562
WM>SB>Don't worry about their lists of "inconsistencies". Many of them
WM>have
WM>SB>been explained away even though they refuse to accept the
WM>explanations.
WM> "Many of them", eh? So, we're just gonna forget the ones that
WM>have not been explained?
Since they are very minor and have no affect on doctrine, yes.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus Christ is Lord!
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Robert Curry
Sub: Buddhism
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:48:00
--------
EID:33fa 1c286e00
MSGID: 1:247/133 048c07e8
RC> SB> How does all of this fit with the idea of Buddhism being a
RC> SB> non-theistic religon?
RC>It doesn't have to be atheistic, though Therevada Buddhism generally
RC>is.
It seems to be more non-theistic rather than atheistic since Buddha never
said there was no God, instead he just ignored Him.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž In the beginning was the Word...
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Evidence?
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:58:01
--------
EID:9876 1c286f40
MSGID: 1:247/133 048c07e9
JV> > The fact that the church accepted the Gospels and letters as
JV>having
JV> > being
JV> > written by the people who claimed to from an early date is
JV>evidence.
JV>Evidence of what? Not evidence that the books were written by folk
JV>who knew
JV>Jesus. Not evidence that any of it is accurate. Just evidence that
JV>the
JV>church accepted it as true, or, more accurately, that the leaders
JV>claimed it
JV>was true and the sheep flocked right along. If we don't accept that
JV>the
JV>bible is true just because you say so, why the heck should we think
JV>it is
JV>true just because you say someone else said so a long time ago? Your
JV>visit in
JV>this echo may have strengthened your faith, as you claim, but it
JV>would likely
JV>profit you more if it strengthened your grasp of logic.
People seem to think that the church started hundreds of years after the
time of Jesus. This is not true. It started during His time on earth.
Matthew and John were accepted as being written by the people whose name
they bear and who happened to be people who Jesus knew, from the time
they were written. This is may not be proof but it is evidence.
JV> > BTW, now I know why you do this. It's fun. ;-]
JV>You know it. And I can see that the HolySmokers are going to have a
JV>lot of
JV>fun with you.
They usually do.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž You're the solid rock on which I stand
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:00:02
--------
EID:65df 1c287000
MSGID: 1:247/133 048c07ea
JV> > He also claimed that the Christian deities the way Christians
JV> > describe
JV> > them have been proven false by science.
JV>Sounds like a fairly easy one to demonstrate. But first, why don't
JV>you, as a
JV>christian, describe your deities the way christians describe them, so
JV>that
JV>when we debunk them you won't whine about anyone making up a straw
JV>man
JV>argument.
Fine. My God is the creator of the universe who sent His Son to die for
us so that we may spend eternity with Him. Let see you debunk this.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:08:03
--------
EID:bbf5 1c287100
MSGID: 1:247/133 048c07eb
MB> SB> Are there any human beings currently living on the surface of
MB>the
MB> SB> moon? Is it possible to prove there are none?
MB> Certainly not human beings as we know them, because we have been to
MB>the
MB> moon and know what the atmosphere is like. Human beings cannot
MB>survive
MB> without life-support equipment in the lunar atmosphere.
MB> Can I prove there are none? Probably not. But I can deduce that
MB>there
MB> aren't any, based on the atmosphere that was present in those parts
MB>of
MB> the moon that human beings visited.
MB> "Prove is a pretty strong word, though. Since I have not been to
MB>every
MB> square inch of the moon simultaneously, I cannot absolutely prove
MB>that
MB> there are no human beings there.
However, there is a level of evidence that comes so close to proof that
the difference is negligible, would you agree?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž In the beginning was the Word...
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Evidence
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:11:04
--------
EID:f934 1c287160
MSGID: 1:247/133 048c07ec
MB> SB> MG>No evidence, no
MB> SB> MG>god.
MB> SB> Why do you believe that just because we can not provide evidence
MB>at
MB> SB> the present time, that means that no god exists? At one time
MB>people
MB> SB> could not provide evidence that the earth was round. That did
MB>not
MB> SB> cause it to be any less round.
MB> Well, for openers, the evidence was there from the beginning, human
MB> beings just didn't know how to read the evidence and understand its
MB> meaning. While believers are saying exactly the same thing about
MB>the
MB> existence of god(s), they haven't yet provided any evidence that
MB>can't
MB> be interpreted in a much more mundane fashion. In fact, their
MB>"expla-
MB> nations" smack of nothing more than wish fulfillment on their part.
MB> Until some evidence is provided that cannot be explained any other
MB>way
MB> than by the presence of some god(s), it simply doesn't make any
MB>sense
MB> to interpret the evidence in a way that includes something for which
MB> there is no adequate evidence.
I must wonder if some of the people who made claims that were later proven
were also accused of "wish fulfillment". However, do you see my point
that just because we can not provide evidence of His existence does not
mean that He does not exist?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Grace, mercy, and peace from God
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From: Steve Bedard
To: David Worrell
Sub: Bible
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:17:05
--------
EID:bd55 1c287220
MSGID: 1:247/133 048c07ed
DW> SB> BIBLE STORIES TAKE ON NEW REALITY
DW> SB> Archaelogists uncover solid evidence of biblical times
DW> SB> While digging up an area for a children's park, Israeli workers
DW>{...}
DW> SB> -St Catharines Standard pp. E 11, Dec 18 1993
DW>I hope that this wasn't meant to be evidence showing the existence of
DW>God. Most reasonable people agree that the Bible is a historical
DW>document. We need evidence of God himself.
No it was not an attempt to provide evidence for the existence of God.
The article is about the Bible, we discuss the Bible here, so I thought
someone here might find it interesting. It is interesting that you
consider the Bible a historical document, yet some here claim that
historical evidence for Jesus is lacking.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Salvation and glory and power belong to our God
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From: Steve Bedard
To: David Worrell
Sub: Dss
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:20:06
--------
EID:04a9 1c287280
MSGID: 1:247/133 048c07ee
DW> DC> If anything, it may be because of my above reasons in that it
DW> DC> extolled the power of women. Not something that a male
DW> DC> dominated society would want as part fo their prime beliefs.
DW>Well, originally I thought it was because the scrolls were gathered
DW>by
DW>the Essenes, and I was of the opinion (might be wrong) that they were
DW>a
DW>predominately male sect.
If that were the case, they would not include Ruth. I wonder if any
copies of the apocryphal book Judith were found. A possible reason for
Esther being missing is that it is the only book that does not mention
God.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž You're the solid rock on which I stand
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:55:00
--------
EID:bae3 1c2876e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a6e
MG> SB> Are there any human beings currently living on the surface of
MG>the
MG> SB> moon? Is it possible to prove there are none?
MG>It is indeed impossible.
MG>But we take that knowledge that we do have
MG>and
MG>extrapolate it to the fact that there are no humans living on the
MG>Moon's
MG>surface. We do exactly the same thing with deities.
How do you do the same thing? We have evidence that no human can survive
on the moon but we have no such evidence against the existence of God.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž His delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Evidence
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:56:01
--------
EID:0ae0 1c287700
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a6f
MG>Our knowledge and the means of gaining that knowlege have grown in
MG>log
MG>proportions. We can look at the mistakes fo the past and apply tot
MG>hem to
MG>present and future knowledge. We can say with huge sureness that
MG>there is no
MG>god, but like that invisible pink hippo, we can't be 100% sure.
Huge sureness based on what? Lack of evidence? Lack of evidence is not
evidence against His existence.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Salvation and glory and power belong to our God
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Starwyn
Sub: Homosexuality
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:00:02
--------
EID:8c0c 1c287800
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a70
S >So, are you saying that God doesn't love gay people? That they are
S >worthless
S >and don't derserve to hear God's word? If this is correct, then your
S >God is
S >to be pitied for his Ego and you people are to be pitied for your
S >blind
S >ignorance. Because this would NOT be a God of love and compassion,
S >and
S >certainly not wisdom. In my religion, we teach people not to
S >discriminate
S >against anyone. First of all, its illegal, secondly, its immoral and
S >thirdly,
S >if anyone wishes to find their path on religious ground and i refuse,
S >what
S >makes me any better than those like you who refuse them as well?
S >Being
S >homophobic is a disease you CAN cure yourselves of.
God does love homosexuals and they definitely deserve to hear God's word.
Although the Gospels do not mention it, I suspect that Jesus spent time
with some homosexuals just as He did with other outcasts of society.
Jesus' sacrifice was for everyone, including homosexuals.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Our God is an awsome God!
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Quentin Fai
Sub: Re: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:02:03
--------
EID:bf84 1c287840
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a71
QF> SB> HP>You can't prove a negative.
QF> SB> Are there any human beings currently living on the surface of
QF>the moon?
QF> SB> Is it possible to prove there are none?
QF>If we had no way to go over to the moon and take a look for
QF>ourselves, then
QF>it would not be possible to prove that there were no people living
QF>there.
QF>However, if we had no reason to believe there are people there, we
QF>would
QF>assume that there are none. Kind of like the existance of a god. We
QF>have no
QF>way of looking for ourselves, but since there is no real reason to
QF>believe
QF>one exists, I don't believe in one.
Alright I have a better one. If I show you both of my hands and they
seem empty can you prove that I am not holding a hammer in my hands?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž The heavens are telling the glory of the God
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Jay Barrymore
Sub: Assurance
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:08:04
--------
EID:d5a8 1c287900
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a72
JB> SB> I disagree. First of all, people wrongly tend to paint the God
JB>of the
JB> SB> Old Testament as completely vengeful and the God of the New
JB>Testament
JB> SB> as completely merciful. Examples can be found in the OT, where
JB>He is
JB>The Hebrew tribal god portrayed in the Old Testament is a vengeful,
JB>wrathful
JB>deity that took pleasure in snuffing out people's lives, destroying
JB>civil-
JB>izations, and in many instances abusing his devotees. People
JB>submitted to
JB>his worship due to their fear of his power, and not out of love or a
JB>desire
JB>to do so.
Interesting anti-Christian propaganda, but no where does it describe a God
who takes pleasure in destroying or in abusing His devotees. When He
destroyed it was out of necessity and when He punished the Hebrews it was
in order to bring them back to Him.
JB> SB> both vengeful and merciful and similarly, examples of both can
JB>be
JB> SB> found in the NT. Also, you must remember that the focus of the
JB>NT is
JB> SB> on the Son (and to a lesser extent, the Holy Spirit), while the
JB>focus
JB> SB> of the OT is on the Father. Finally, God treats His people
JB> SB> differently in the OT compared to the NT, because they were in
JB>two
JB>Why should God treat people "differently" at one time from another?
JB>Has he
JB>gotten bored with abusing his "playthings?" No, I think the answer
JB>can be
JB>found in the view that Jesus was not "orthodox," and received a lot
JB>of his
JB>enlightenment from the Essenes. Jesus' methodology was totally
JB>different
JB>and alien to the orthodox Hebrew religion. It was this approach that
JB>got
JB>him into trouble with the religious leaders of that day.
Why does a parent treat their child different at the age of twenty than
they way they treated the child at the age of two?
JB> SB> totally different situations. This accounts for the seeming
JB> SB> difference in the way God is depicted in the OT and NT.
JB>The reason for the differences between the Old Testament and New
JB>Testaments
JB>is that they are not of the same philosophy. Christianity was a cult
JB>that
JB>broke off from the Hebrew religion. It challenged the traditional
JB>inter-
JB>pretations of the Old Testament (at that time, the only testament),
JB>and
JB>found that it needed to derive it's own scriptures as a source of
JB>inspirat-
JB>ion (since the Hebrew writings were alien to the philosophy of the
JB>Christ-
JB>ians).
If the Hebrew scriptures were alien to the Christian philosophy, why does
the New Testament quote it so often?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Prepare the way of the Lord
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Hey
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:12:05
--------
EID:5638 1c287980
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a73
JL>The "Judeo-Christian" term in this case is wrong. Please avoid it
JL>unless a
JL>belief is shared by both religions. Jews don't believe in original
JL>sin,
JL>vicarious atonement, or hell. Jewish beliefs about divine judgement
JL>and
JL>immortality differ from Christians greatly also.
I totally agree with your attitude toward the term "Judeo-Christian".
Judaism and Christianity are a lot more different than many Christians
want to believe.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus turned our sorrow into dancing
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Question
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:19:06
--------
EID:f383 1c287a60
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a74
MB> SB> Thanks. Bring on the next question.
MB> Where in the Bible does Jehovah give Man a recipe for an
MB>abortificient?
Numbers 5:11-31 is probably what you are talking about but it is not meant
to cause abortions but to test a wife for adultery.
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Evidence?
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:23:07
--------
EID:c7b8 1c287ae0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a75
MB> The MOST CONTEMPORARY (to Jesus) gospel was written at least 30
MB>years
MB> after his death, and probably later than even that. Paul never knew
MB> Jesus, in fact, did not live during Jesus' lifetime (unless you
MB> subscribe to the Barbara Theiring school, which asserts that Jesus
MB> lived into his 70's, had three kids and two wives). Sometimes the
MB> ignorance of these fundies is beyond my ability to comprehend. The
MB> only thing they "know" about the Bible is what their
MB> preecher-puppetteer "friends" have told them, and most of that was
MB> passed down via other preecher-puppetteers.
Ignorance of non-Christians is also sometimes beyond comprehension. Paul
did indeed live during Jesus' lifetime since he was converted only a few
years after Jesus death. I could also argue that Paul did meet Jesus in
Acts 9:5 but I won't get into that.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus Christ is Lord!
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: Re: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:27:08
--------
EID:2879 1c287b60
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a76
PH> RB> In regards to C. S. Lewis, you ARE mistaken! That is why he
PH>BECAME
PH> RB> so popular. He may or may not have been raised Anglican, but
PH>that
PH> RB> doesn't guarentee that he had a walk with the Lord. After he
PH>became a
PH> RB> Christian, he then started writing Christian books and became
PH>famous.
PH>Anglicans aren't Christians?!?
I don't think that is what he is saying. I think he is saying that just
because he was raised Anglican does not mean that he was born again at
that time. I was raised Anglican and I went to an Anglican church for
almost twenty years before I became a born again Christian. However, this
does not mean that there are no born again Christians in the Anglican
church.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus turned our sorrow into dancing
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Life's Meaning
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:35:09
--------
EID:37d6 1c287c60
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a77
ML> ML> Evidence: fundamentalists refusal to accept reality in all
ML>its'
ML> ML> glories and pratfalls and instead lean on some illusory
ML>cosmic
ML> ML> crutch.
ML> SB> Do you have evidence that it is illusory or is it simply your
ML>opinion?
ML> No, by definition, it is illusory.
By definition, God is illusory? What kind of definition are you using?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Salvation and glory and power belong to our God
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Evidence?
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:41:10
--------
EID:c7b8 1c287d20
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a78
MB> SB> One convenient part that you left out was that the church did
MB>not not
MB> SB> immediately rise to the level of political power that you
MB>described.
MB> SB> It was persecuted for a few hundred years before that, and that
MB>is
MB> SB> when many of the books were accepted. Many of the books were
MB> SB> accepted within the first couple of centuries.
MB> Makes no difference. The church gained the prominence in everyday
MB> affairs precisely because they sought it. When they were choosing
MB> those books, they had a definite taste for the authoritarian
MB>position
MB> that was to come later. Had they not, they would not have chosen
MB>the
MB> writings of Paul/Saul, for example. He was DEFINITELY into a power
MB> trip that insinuated itself into every facet of the believer's
MB>personal
MB> life. Christ did not do that. His teachings deal with ATTITUDE,
MB>not
MB> behavior. He showed absolutely no signs of giving a rip about
MB> behavior. Look at the Sermon on the Mount. It is a hundred percent
MB>a
MB> question of attitude, and only obliquely deals with behavior as a
MB>by-
MB> product of that attitude. The poor in spirit, the pure in heart,
MB>the
MB> peacemakers -- all deal directly with the spirit.
It does make a big difference. You say that they picked the books that
would help them keep the political power they had. Yet, the books were
mostly accepted while they were still being persecuted.
MB> That is one of the main reasons why I could NEVER call myself a
MB> Christian. I have absolutely no problem with the words of Christ,
MB>but
MB> have one helluva problem with the authoritarian overlay that the
MB> contemporary churches have put on those values, thanks to that
MB>woman-
MB> and sex-hating bigot named Saul.
While I disagree with your characterization of Paul, what stops you from
becoming a Christian who only accepts the words of Christ? The way of
salvation is explained in the Gospels.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Religon
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:42:11
--------
EID:6ed2 1c287d40
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a79
MB> SB> MB>Yes. Theya are also all false. Being very complex belief
MB>systems,
MB> SB>
MB> SB> MB>they
MB> SB> MB>each have a little of truth about them, and much of falsity.
MB> SB>
MB> SB> Do you have evidence that all religons are mostly false or is it
MB>only
MB> SB> your opinion?
MB> Since they all claim to the the Truth , and they all differ, it
MB>is
MB> only logical to conclude that they are all mistaken in one way or
MB> another.
There is another alternative. All may be false except one.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:46:12
--------
EID:ca63 1c287dc0
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a7a
MB> SB> Really? That is very interesting since I do have a Qur'an and I
MB>do
MB> SB> read it. I guess I was an idiot to expect others to be as
MB>openminded
MB> SB> as me and to read the holy books of other religons even if they
MB>don't
MB> SB> follow that religon.
MB> It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with open-mindedness.
MB> People have only so many hours in a day, and interests vary. Martin
MB> might very well be extremely well-versed in some area that you know
MB> nothing about that has nothing to do with his profession
MB> (immunologist). We gravitate toward those things in which we are
MB> interested. It has nothing to do with open-mindedness; it has to do
MB> with where our interests lie. Are you closed-minded because you
MB>know
MB> virtually nothing about immunology? Same difference. There are
MB>only
MB> just so many hours in a day.
I have shown no interest in immunology but I assume Martin has an interest
in religon by his presense in this echo. However, I believe I have made
my point that it is not idiotic to believe that someone interested in
religon would have looked into books that differed from their personal
beliefs.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Christ is risen. The Lord has risen indeed.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Assurance
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:48:13
--------
EID:2f96 1c287e00
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a7b
MB> Having a different mode of behavior in different situations is
MB>called
MB> "situational ethics." According to all the Christians I've talked
MB>to,
MB> SE are antithesis to a Christian value system. How come it's okay
MB>for
MB> your god to have situational ethics, but when his follower have
MB>them,
MB> he fries them forever?
God does not have situational ethics. His ethics never change, but this
does not mean that He must have the same reaction no matter what the
circumstances.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Our God is an awsome God!
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Michael Fefer
Sub: Assurance
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:52:14
--------
EID:6d71 1c287e80
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a7c
MF>Not to flame, but why does religion have to be such an overriding
MF>force
MF>in your life? I think that whether you are
MF>theist/religious/whatever,
MF>it is only one of the small things in a person that combine to make
MF>the
MF>WHOLE.
This is a good question. I believe that the aspects of life that one
considers the most important must become a strong force in their life.
For some it is money, pleasure or family. For me it is God. I believe
that I will lose everything material when I die and the only thing that
will last is my relationship with God.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus turned our sorrow into dancing
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Gif File Of Steve
Date: 08 Jan 94 15:59:15
--------
EID:2d03 1c287f60
MSGID: 1:247/133 048d7a7d
SQ>SB> ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž My Lord and my God!
SQ>Hey, I just noticed you're registered...looks like the tables are
SQ>turned!
I was wondering how long it would take you to notice. I have only had it
registered for about two or three months. I also had a beta of Waverider
which will be replacing WinQwk. It was pretty good although a little
slow.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Salvation and glory and power belong to our God
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: QUENTIN FAI
To: Styx Allum
Sub: FidoNews Submission
Date: 08 Jan 94 10:58:00
--------
EID:fd1a 1c285740
MSGID: 1:358/1 048b04ca
I was eavesdropping on Styx Allum, and I heard:
SA> > And to leave you with a warm Stevie Bewildered thought:
SA> > "Satan is a serpent. All those who go to hell will take
SA> > on the form of their master. A serpent is worm like. All
SA> > those who go to heaven will have a body like their
SA> > master... the lord Jesus Christ, a 33 1/2 year old male."
SA> > Steve Winter, HOLYSMOKE echo. [spelling corrected --- drice]
SA> When was Steve Winter ever actually in HolySmoke?
SA> I suspect that the actual text originated elsewhere, and was
SA> imported into our beloved echo.
I don't think Steve Winter ever showed up here, though he does read the
echo, as evidenced by his reply to a message mocking the hell out of
PRIMEnet. I believe that quote came from the Chatty Ralphie Doll (Ralph
Stokes).
* JABBER v1.3B1 #B135 * I think Steve Winter is a closet homosexual.
--- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00H1
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 06 Jan 94 06:20:58
--------
EID:d5fd 1c263280
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 39cb5220
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Dec 31 07:18, Jesse C. Jones of 1:271/250 wrote:
JCJ>> with my statement that _for the most part_, atheists simply
JCJ>> do not do good and ethical things.
JCJ> between "all" and "most"?
The atheists I have encountered are kind and decent people. They are college
p
rofessors, medical doctors, and psychological therapists. Not exactly your
ste
reotypical atheist ne'r do well. If asked, most of them said the reason
why th
ey do not believe in God is that they cannot understand why God permits
evil.
This is good in intention, as it is a distaste for the evil in the world.
Job
and Abraham would certainly agree with them on the principle: "Shall the
God o
f justice not do justice?", but would insist that they should not reject
the d
ialogue altogeather between God and his children, what Wiesel has called
"the
trial of God".
The other camp, which I've seen here, are people who do not understand why
peo
ple would worship something that behaves like a malignant robot according
to t
he somewhat fanatical simplified doctrines they were exposed to as children
(a
nd echo participants), and rejected as adults. This is also well intentioned,
as it represents a tendency to hate idolatry.
The only camp of "harmful" atheists that I know of is those who are like
Phaer
oh who said "The Nile is mine and I made myself", which is to say, someone
who
considers themself to be the only God. These people are the Hitlers and
Stali
ns, and they are thankfully rare and I suspect none of the atheists here
are t
otalitarian monomaniacs, despite the frequent broad brush cold-war originated
attacks on them that are popular in the United States.
All I wish to do here religion-wise, all that my religion commands me to
do re
ligionwise, is to hope that people who are not of my religion will learn
to be
decent, as they can. (E.G. the book of Jonah) You don't have to believe
in an
y set of doctrines to be a good person.
JBL
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: A HolySmoker's Dyslexicon: Part 1 of 6
Date: 06 Jan 94 12:04:06
--------
EID:9255 1c266080
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 39ce8e9b
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 01 09:02, Marty Leipzig of 1:271/250 wrote:
ML> Remember, this list was originally printed on unrecycled
ML> paper. Great, huge bleeding swaths of virgin forests were
ML> cut down and the land devastated in both The Big Piney and
ML> Chequmagon National Forests. The ink was made from
ML> minerals strip mined in some of the most erstwhile scenic
ML> lands in North America.
ML> Thousands upon thousands of cute, furry and fuzzy little
ML> animals were left cold, wet, shivering and homeless. So
ML> treat this lexicon with all its due respect.
You think that echomail is more environmentally safe? This message went
to tho
usands of computers all over the world, causing millions of killowatts to
be u
sed by electric utilities worldwide. This caused trillions and trillions
of co
al and even some petroleum combustion byproducts to be blown into the air
via
smokestacks. Hence causing thousands of gallons of acid rain to fall onto
the
forests annually; destroying what little acrerage of timber was left, and
furt
her worsening of the air polution that's slowly killing off Mexico and Souther
n California to the great relief of the rest of North America.
Not to mention the environmental wreckage from further creation of "golf
cours
es" in West Virginia and Kentucky, and the hazardous oil slicks from offshore
drilling that kill innocent whales, dolphins, octopii, and jelly-fish, which
a
re *all* more intelegant than the average Fundamentalist. All in the pursuit
f
or more kilowatt-hours....
In those places that do not burn our wonderful natural reasources, billions
of
hazerdous radiocative elements split in nuclear reactors cause poisoning
and
harmful mutations to what little animals remain after the onslaughts above.
For those who think you get *clean* electricity, thousands of fish die every
y
ear because they cannot reach their spawning grounds because of hydroelectric
dams.
All of this is just so you can turn on your computers, which use up to 40%
of
commercial electricity according to nuts at the EPA and the Swedish Government
.
And we haven't even gotten to Silicon Valley yet with it's highly toxic
metal
waste and CFCs used for cleaning circuitry.
Gee, I hope the Earth First guys don't hear about this, they might decide
to a
dvocate the banning of reading in the United States altogeather. ;-(
JBL
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Luke Enriquez
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 06 Jan 94 13:17:28
--------
EID:43ca 1c266a20
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 39cf1e42
REPLY: 3:632/515 2d265746
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Jan 02 00:08, Luke Enriquez of 3:632/515 wrote:
LE> label something as evil simply because you feel
LE> uncomfortable about it. I feel uncomfortable
LE> about homosexuality, but I cant see why I should
LE> call it evil. I feel uncomfortable about islamic
LE> countries, but I dont think there more evil than
LE> anyone else.
Yep, but according to Fundys, *both* are going to be sentenced to eternal
tort
ure by their god with the hundred thousand or so True Christian spectators
all
owed eternal life getting to watch it as their eternal entertainment.
Therefore I doubt that said Fundys understand the nature of your argument,
unf
ortunately.
JBL
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 06 Jan 94 15:26:42
--------
EID:2b0f 1c267b40
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 39d060d0
REPLY: 1:135/71 b686c05b
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Dec 28 07:57, Jesse C. Jones of 1:135/71 wrote:
JC>> You see, this is how you heathens in this conference
JC>> define a "reasonable Christian" -- one that agrees with
MB>> of what makes him what he is: the most compassionate,
MB>> understanding, forgiving, loving, and just plain nice
MB>> person I've ever had the privilege of knowing.
JCJ> This indicates to me that you are secure
JCJ> enough in your own beliefs that you do not need
JCJ> to attack and despise those who disagree with you.
I suspect she is really commenting, in a justifyably angry way, how your
claim
to the atheists that they do less good things on the avarage than others
is i
nsulting.
It's insulting in the same way as claiming that Jews are more greedy.
Of course, good Christians don't slur as much as atheists, and don't have
as m
any prejudices against people with other beliefs, since they are full of
love
towards all people, including those they view as sinners.
If your claim is true, that Christians are better ethically than atheists,
set
an example. Otherwise you're *quite* unconvincing when you act like a hypocri
tical bigot.
JBL
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From: Joshua Lee
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Naive reductionism
Date: 06 Jan 94 17:05:04
--------
EID:5bf8 1c2688a0
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 39d16974
REPLY: 1:135/71 b686c061
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Dec 29 07:35, Jesse C. Jones of 1:135/71 wrote:
JCJ> Christians who attribute to the divine a
JCJ> corporeal and anthropomorphic existence. And I would cite
What else is Jesus but a finite corporal and anthropological representation
of
the infinite attributed to our God by Christians?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :-)
JCJ> scripture and many fine Christian thinkers to
JCJ> explain why I believe they are wrong. I see no
JCJ> point in wasting my time giving that same attention to
JCJ> nonbelievers, however.
That seems pretty counter-productive, to not teach your actual historical
beli
efs in their fullness and richness to others, but rather to leave it as
a simp
le dogma as possible when teaching people who do not know it. That may gain
yo
u many unwashed, who invariablly already have a superstition of some sort,
but
will not contribute to the brightest and best minds being on the side of
reli
gion rather than secularism.
Most, such at one time myself, sincerely oppose religions for the intellectual
reasons stated by secularists on this forum. I suspect they will continue
to
be against religion in general so long as the only belief systems they are
awa
re of are the naive reductionist spiritual dogmas and naive reductionist
mater
ial dogmas of the Twentieth century. Learning that there is more to *my*
relig
ion than superstitious dogmatism certainly made alot of difference to me.
If your real purpose for now is to condemn rather than to teach, perhaps
you a
ren't being the enlightened representative of Biblical monotheism that you
cla
im to want to be here.
Just some harsh but not completely antagonistic criticism from a Jew.
JBL
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--------
From: Joshua Lee
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:58:20
--------
EID:0898 1c277740
MSGID: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 39dd310c
REPLY: 1:221/279.4 2d24101a
PID: msgedsq 2.2b
On Dec 31 11:33, Tyler A. Wunder of 1:221/279.4 wrote:
SQ>> ... Women are like fires.
TAW> Piss on them?
TAW> Yes kids, he's a bitter, jaded man :)
After all, he's married. ;>
JBL
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Dave Schultz
Sub: Good?
Date: 07 Jan 94 18:08:16
--------
EID:5cdb 1c279100
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d2daed4
REPLY: 1:114/262.0 2d28ec12
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Dave:
In a msg of , Dave Schultz writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
TAW>> Debatable, but in any event, is good God?
DS> More than anything else, as good is synonymous with love.
So the statements, "I wish you God luck", "I God you", and "Your performa
nce on the test was God" are all meaningful?
DS> Well, they don't really decide, as the decision is already made.
DS> It's a matter of becoming aware, or admitting that love is
DS> really God, not the human, so to speak.
But how do they become aware of this revelation? If a man decides that
s
omething is good, then that man would have to have an idea of what good
is bef
ore he can come to that decision. It seems you're advocating voluntarism,
or
an attempt at a sophisticated version of voluntarism, in attempts to head
off
"Euthyphro-like" difficulties.
If you want to say that God is good, then you've got to have an idea of
w
hat good is to say that God is it. If you decide that God is synonymous
with
good, then saying that God is good is a tautology, and not very informative.
Y
ou might as well say God is God.
DS> The human is the
DS> receiver of that love. I know that's hard to accept. We are so
DS> accustomed to taking credit for for being the giver.
Likely because there's no reason to think otherwise. If I love a person,
for example, then that is something which I am doing. As I have control
over
it (e.g. I can stop loving that person, or love them more, or love them
less)
, it would certainly seem that I am the giver of that love.
Granted, you could argue that like a person giving someone else water, we
humans are not actually the source for the water (or the love), but you
have
yet to demonstrate that god is the source of love. You can assert it, but
tha
t's not very convincing.
DS> Especially
DS> when it comes to romance.
DS> Example: When we say: 'I Love You' to the object of our
DS> affection, we are really saying "I god You," or I want to be
DS> your god. Or I want you to be my god. Ring a bell?
No -- this seems rather silly, and I highly doubt that many people (Chris
tians included) would buy it. If you want to claim that romantic love is
God,
then you seem committed to the position that romantic love is sentient and
cr
eated the universe. This sounds less and less like a rational position
and mo
re and more like a Care Bears cartoon.
DS> street sweepers, hand grenades and sniper guns? Would it surprise
DS> you to learn that most people who DO use the term can not, or
DS> will not agree on a common concept?
Doesn't surprise me in the least. More than most terms, God is an extrem
ely subjective and personal thing.
DS> of these aspects, the other two would not exist. By way of
DS> analogy, take Time -- the Future, the Present, the Past. Without
DS> one, the other two would cease to exist.
It's a matter of perspective. There's a tribe of Indians (which one esca
pes me at the moment, although I can inquire) that deals in now and not-now.
T
hey have no concept of past and future. As well, your three-in-one version
of
God seems merely metaphysical brain aerobics. It says very little while
soun
ding very profound. Why not clarify it?
DS> Without an independent standard by
TAW>> which to judge your almighty, saying "God is so good" is hardly a
TAW>> compliment at all.
DS> You, Tyler, are the independent standard.
So you acknowledge that the concept of good exists independent of God?
DS>> To say that people can do good things without the Holy Spirit is
DS>> inaccurate. The body without the Spirit is dead.
TAW>>
TAW>> Please demonstrate this. Hint: you will need to demonstrate
TAW>> that persons who do not believe as you do are nevertheless acting
TAW>> with the Holy Spirit when they do good things (e.g. love their
TAW>> children, give food to the needy, assist those in need of help, etc),
TAW>> or that they are in fact not performing good deeds. Can you
TAW>> demonstrate this, or can you only groundlessly assert it?
DS> I think it should be apparent by now that I am not speaking out of
DS> belief, however you choose to interpret that.
On the contrary Dave, it seems very apparent that you are speaking only
o
ut of belief. Or do you have something to substantiate the claim that people
cannot do good without the Holy Spirit?
DS> Everyone has the capacity and exercises the option to do good,
DS> to various degrees and for various reasons.
Please define good, Dave. Is persecuting homosexuals good? Some would
s
ay yes. Are they wrong? If so, how do you know?
DS>> To re-phrase, no one creates good, as goodness itself is God.
DS>> Therefore, good cannot be manifested or passed on unless the Spirit
DS>> of God is IN the person (vessel) which manifests that good.
Because you've said very little and have gone in circles to make your poi
nts, Dave, you don't seem to have much meaningful to say.
TAW>>
TAW>> So will you say: 1) that if I give a starving child food, that I
TAW>> am not acting in a good manner,
DS> Did you mean to word this in the affirmative?
No, I mean to word it in the negative. As you have yet to demonstrate th
at the Holy Spirit works through me (saying it does, doesn't make it so,
no ma
tter how esoterically you say it), you must be of the position that if someone
does not have the Holy Spirit working through them, they cannot do good.
Hen
ce, my giving a starving child food could not be good.
Granted, you will likely posit that automatically the HS gets involved wi
th such an act, but you can't just _say_ this -- demonstrate it.
DS> If not, I will say
DS> that if you give a starving child food, you ARE acting in a good
DS> manner. Love is working through you in that instance.
But I do so independently of a belief in God. Now, if you wish to claim
that what I believe in is irrelevent, and that I am (because I am doing
someth
ing loving) having the Holy Spirit work through me, I would point out that
I c
ould counter-assert that perhaps I have Allah working through me. Or perhaps
Odin. Or maybe the Love-God. Not only can you not use my "good" act to
indic
ate your supernatural being, but ANY supernatural being. Blanket statements
o
f "God is good" can be easily counter-asserted with equally well-evidenced
bla
nket statements of "Odin is good".
DS> or; 2) that the Spirit of God is in me
TAW>> whether I know it or not?
DS> Yes, I am saying that, although I would rather you said that.
TAW>> In either case, do you have anything to support this? Remember,
TAW>> wishful thinking doesn't count.
DS> Again, Tyler, you are your own evidence. Test this hypothesis in
DS> your own activities by remembering that the next time you do good,
DS> or involved in a loving act, you are both a witness and a
DS> participant the very action of God (Love) on planet earth.
Dave, you're simply stating this as fact with nothing to back it up. I
c
an say "the next time you do good, or are involved in a loving act, you
are bo
th a witness and a participant in the very action of Star Goat (Love) on
Plane
t earth". Now, obviously you won't believe me, but what makes your claim
supe
rior to mine? Once again I remind you that wishful thinking does not count
as
anything but wishful thinking.
DS> Get back with me on this and tell me honestly how you felt
DS> about it and what you concluded.
I felt no God. I felt an emotion for the person whom I felt feelings for
, but strong emotions evidence strong emotions -- not gods. Perhaps you
shoul
d remember that not everyone shares your indoctrination, and will not attribut
e their feelings to a fantastic entity as you seem to.
TAW>> presumably from this you could derive "God loves us humans".
DS> More than any other creature or thing. That is why Love resides in
DS> us and has infused us with the intelligence we have, which is the
DS> intelligence to be the thinker. (Mystery)
Like I said, you're using a funny version of the word "love". According
to your scriptures (and the testimony of the world around us), God does
things
to us humans, or allows things to happen to us humans, that a mother could
ne
ver allow to happen to her child and still be considered loving.
Free-will cop-out, anyone?
TAW>> things that would falsify the mother claim do not falsify the God
TAW>> claim (e.g. mothers who drown their children are not considered
TAW>> loving mothers);
DS> Love is always God, God is always love. Mothers who drown their
DS> children have elected for that moment to surpress Love.
You miss the allusion to Noah's flood. If God is Love, then drowning you
r children (as Love did) would not be inconsistent with loving. Yet, we
jail
mothers who commit infanticide, and certainly don't consider them significantl
y loving. The things that would verify a mother's love do not verify God's
lo
ve, and the things that would falsify a mother's love do not falsify God's
lov
e, as you believe God is loving no matter WHAT the circumstance. If God's
lov
e is compatible with ANYTHING he might do, then clearly you are using a
differ
ent meaning of the word "love" than is standardly used.
It would seem appropriate that a different word be used to avoid confusio
n.
---
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Merry Christmas...
Date: 07 Jan 94 10:07:00
--------
EID:e183 1c2750e0
JS> Homosexuality, and liberalism will fail and as the Bible teaches,
JS> That evil will fail at the hands of other evil people. Whether it be
a
JS> government that takes rights from some and gives them to others. Or
JS> Homosexuals and other perverts that spread the AIDS virus (85 percent
JS> of AIDS victims are homosexuals call the CDC in Atlanta to verify
JS> this). Evil people (evil by their actions) cause other people to die.
I
JS> believe that this country needs to turn back to the morality that once
If you wish me to reply to this garbage, run it through a grammar
checker first. I don't have time to decipher your convoluted thought
processes...
... It's a human thing, you wouldn't understand.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: David Worrell
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 07 Jan 94 10:14:00
--------
EID:f8f6 1c2751c0
JCJ> My answer -- "Look inside and tell you what I see" -- was neither
JCJ> a Socratic question nor a dodge. If you looked inside yourself, you
JCJ> would see the emptiness. Answer me this:
JCJ> DO YOU KNOW HOW TO LOOK INSIDE YOURSELF?
It's really easy, Steve. You have to be a christian in order to know how
to look inside yourself ...
I'm really amazed at the changes in Jesse. He used to seem kinda
rational.
... Cross those feet! We only have three nails.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: David Worrell
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Emptiness redux
Date: 07 Jan 94 10:15:00
--------
EID:33c9 1c2751e0
JCJ> Do you want more evidence? Take a humanities course in college.
JCJ> Study modern literature and philosophy. Look at modern art. Watch
a
JCJ> movie. Listen
JCJ> to modern music. Walk down the street. Read Ecclesiastes. Read
JCJ> T.S. Eliott's poem, THE WASTE LAND. Read Joyce's Ulysses. Read
JCJ> Beckett's En Attendant Godot. Read the novels of John Irving, or John
JCJ> Updike. Read Franz
JCJ> Kafka. Observe the human condition. Wake up to the Twentieth
JCJ> Century. The
JCJ> evidence is all around you, Steve.
I'm confused. Is all the stuff you listed supposed to give evidence for
Gawd or for Steve's emptiness???
... I'm mooning you now, you just can't see me.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: The Reign of God is at ha
Date: 07 Jan 94 10:18:00
--------
EID:86fe 1c275240
JCJ> in working for God's reign to make things right. There is, IMO, no
JCJ> "Second Coming" of Christ on the clouds. The work of God is our work,
Blasphemer! Doesn't the Babble say there will be a second coming?
JCJ> and if we don't
JCJ> do it, it won't get done.
Wouldn't that be a shame...
JCJ> Among us. The Reign of God is at hand.
Isn't this the same bullshit we've heard for the last 2000 years?
... Christ died for our sins, so let's not disappoint him.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: David Worrell
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 08 Jan 94 00:51:00
--------
EID:b4d1 1c280660
GG> Ain't it funny... the good ol' religionoid scare tactic: "God loves
GG> you so join my religion!" "Well... I don't know..." "...Well join
GG> my religion or you'll burn forever!"
I'd rather burn forever than bend knee to a egotistic bully...
GG> Personally, I can't understand how they expect people to love
GG> their big cosmic billybob who goes around like the roughest toughest
GG> swingin' dick in the whole damn valley!
I guess they think everyone is as much a weak-kneed chickenshit as the
are.
GG> ... But I'd wager that most pro wrestling fans are Christians...
You're probably right . If they can believe in Gawd, they can believe
anything.
... Anarcho-Capitalist for sale or rent.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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From: David Worrell
To: Stephen Lochmiller
Sub: ADAM...
Date: 08 Jan 94 01:17:00
--------
EID:7e16 1c280a20
SL> In reponse to MG: Can you give us any real evidence that Cesar lived,
SL> or Abraham Lincoln lived, or that George Washington lived or Thomas
SL> Jefferson lived? Can you really prove it to me? What would you show
SL> to me that would provide evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that even
SL> these great men of history lived on this earth.
SL> You would probably say, we have proof by the writings of others who
SL> were alive at the time that these other men were alive and therefore
it
SL> is proof that they lived. Oh Really? What about the writings of John
SL> or Luke or the other authors included in the bible that knew first hand
SL> that Jesus walked the earth.
None of the writings used as "proof" of Ceasar, et al, attribute any
supernatural powers to any of them. Your Babble does, however, attribute
supernatural powers to both Jesus and God. Therefore, a bit more is
required in the way of evidence. Most educated people will not deny that
an individual named Jesus lived during the time the Bible claimed he
did. What we do deny is the fact that he was the "Son of God." The
legends of King Arthur (most likely loosely based on the life of a real
person) describe many imaginary places. Do you believe in Avalon just
because it was described in a book with a loose basis in reality?
SL> No, I cannot prove to you nor can anyone
SL> else prove to you that God exists or the Jesus actually walked the
I'm glad you realize that. If there is no evidence of the existence of
these fairy tales, why do you continue to waste your time believing in
them?
SL> earth nor can I prove to you the Abraham Lincoln lived. I have taken
SL> the word of many others who testified that they had seen him and had
SL> dealings with him.
See above about supernatural powers...
SL> Please don't get me wrong. Yes I do believe in those great men of our
SL> nations past just as you do but I am trying to prove my point that
SL> without first hand knowledge, can we say that we knew anyone lived
SL> before us beyond a shadow of a doubt? There is an area where we have
No, we cannot be sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that Abe actually
lived. It _might_ be a consipracy by the Illuminati. However,
judicious use of Ockham's Razor shows us that he probably did exist, and
did most of the things attributed to him. Jesus, on the other hand, had
all sorts of miraculous occurrances taking place in his presence. While
it is acceptable to believe Jesus the man existed, belief in these
miracles requires a bit more evidence.
SL> to take the word of others and base our opinions on those reports.
To
SL> believe or not to believe is up to each individual and your faith that
SL> the person or persons telling you
SL> something are telling you the truth from first hand experience that
SL> had or are they just merely passing along the word as they heard it
SL> from another who heard it from another who heard it from another etc.
So I would be justified in believing in the existence of Avalon just
because Mallory told me about it in _Morte d'Arthur_?
... Thou shalt eat green eggs and ham - obey thy God, I-am-that-I-am.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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--------
From: Aaron Boyden
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Revenge of the Nerds
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:58:00
--------
EID:10ce aa0c8560
MSGID: 1:206/2720 040d82b9
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d2b8522
PID: FM 2.2.mL OC0000B3
> JCJ> The philosophers? The theologians?
> ML> Unnecessary frills. We tend to stick to reality. Next.
> You're cracking me up, Marty! I think it's time
> to come honest and give
> up this "better-educated" label. Instead, it looks to
> me like the regulars
> here are
> THE REVENGE OF THE NERDS!
Actually, we do have at least one philosopher here. Still only a humble
grad
student (well, all right, an arrogant grad student), but I'll probably still
b
e an atheist when I have the PhD. Certainly most (perhaps all; I don't
know w
here all of them stand, but I haven't found a theist among them yet) of
my pro
fs are atheists.
--- TosScan(q) 1.00
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From: Wayne Michaels
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:10:00
--------
EID:6b69 1c288940
SPTH: fidonet#1:380/100.1
SPTH: fidonet#1:380/100.1
MSGID: fidonet#1:380/100.1 2d2f2f3c
PID: HdPt 0.00
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2c10c2
LO>MG> No faith required? Then you must have some solid evidence
LO>MG> for god's existance. Be the first on your block to provide
LO>MG> evidence for god. Either that, or admit that you area liar.
LO> ere we go again..... I have yet to here of a better explaination for,
LO> life, the origin of life, than that of a creator. You can use any name
yo
u
LO> want, I use God because thats how I know him.
Has it occured to you that the fact that you have yet to "here"
of a better explanation doesn't mean it defaults to a creator.
--- HEdPnt v0.00
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From: jonny vee
To: Scott Charles
Sub: FIDONEWS SUBMISSION
Date: 08 Jan 94 18:49:00
--------
EID:8703 1c289620
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0412ce2b
PID: FM 2.02
> you are correct that your cynicism is showing. in any event the
> [ etc. ]
Yawn.
jv
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From: jonny vee
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: We got us a new one!
Date: 08 Jan 94 18:54:01
--------
EID:2f8f 1c2896c0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0412ce2c
PID: FM 2.02
> jv> In the last couple of weeks, I have seen you complain at least
> jv> three times of inadvertent keyboard immersion in reaction to a good
> jv> joke.
> Read the above closely. Did I say that happened? Or did I issue
> a warning saying that event COULD happen? Details...details...
OK, ya got me on that one.
> jv> Maybe you should either refrain from reading with
> jv> refreshments in hand,
> Impossible. The wheels of scientific inquiry and discovery are
> greased by caffeine.
Only if it's the most potent you can find and grind. My coffee glows in
the d
ark; espresso is a soporific (grin).
> jv> or go out and buy a keyboard condom.
> Practice safe hex?
Helps keep from getting your ASCII in a sling.
> jv> Just tring to be helpful....
> No. Just trying.
Hey, these are trying times.
jv
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From: jonny vee
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 08 Jan 94 19:52:02
--------
EID:eaca 1c289e80
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0412ce2d
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2c10c2
PID: FM 2.02
> On 12-23-93 Martin Goldberg wrote to Len Ovens...
> MG> No faith required? Then you must have some solid evidence
> MG> for god's existance. Be the first on your block to provide
> MG> evidence for god. Either that, or admit that you area liar.
> ere we go again..... I have yet to here of a better explaination for,
>
> life, the origin of life, than that of a creator. You can use any
> name you
> want, I use God because thats how I know him.
> Len
Hey, Len, does "God" have a penis?
jv
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From: jonny vee
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 08 Jan 94 19:55:03
--------
EID:eaca 1c289ee0
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 0412ce2e
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2c12e0
PID: FM 2.02
> As it was, or should have been, I had in a previous message talked
> about God
> as a specific being and therefore God is his name.
His name? I think "God" is a job title.
> DC> If you do not need faith to believe in God then what do you need?
> Eyes.
> Len
The visually-impaired folks, then, may remain blissfully god-free, right?
jv
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From: jonny vee
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Bush League
Date: 08 Jan 94 21:26:04
--------
EID:bc3a 1c28ab40
MSGID: 1:215/606@Fido 04156bfd
PID: FM 2.02
> ... Bang! goes the kanga off the bonnet of the van...
"Many an aborigine's mistaken for a tree
'Til you near them on the motorway, the tree begin to breathe...."
This always sounded like "...on the murderway..." to me. Can't determine
if
that's Kate's accent or an intentional turn of word. Oh, well, helluva
fine
voice, anyway.
jv
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From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Creationist "debating" #1 of
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:19:00
--------
EID:8f6d 1c296a60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d304a94
In a message yesterday I mentioned the following debate between
a scientist and a Creationist. I got many of the details wrong
in yesterday's message, so I'm posting the whole sorry thing
here. It is quite ammusing, in a pathetic sort of way.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Rob P. J. Day
Title: Public Debate with a Creationist
On Friday, October 19, I debated the merits of creation science
with Ian Taylor of the Creation Science Assoc. of Ontario (CSAO)
at the University of Winnipeg, an event sponsored by Christian
Education Consultants (CEC) of Manitoba. This event was notable
not only for what transpired at the debate itself, but for the
underhanded tactics used by the organizers before, during and
after the debate in order to discredit me in any way possible.
In a sense, this article could be subtitled, "I Was Set Up For
a Creationism Debate -- and Survived," and what follows is a
personal account that I hope will alert others who, like me,
are naive enough to expect fair treatment from the creationist
lobby and their supporters.
To appreciate what happened, it is necessary to know who the
players were. I was originally invited to participate in the
debate by a Mr. Geoff Casey, who was acting as a liaison for
Terry Lewis, head of CEC. Lewis was undoubtedly looking for
some measure of revenge against me due to my public criticism
last fall of one of his invited speakers in Winnipeg, none other
than Dr. Richard Bliss of the California-based Institute for
Creation Research (ICR), and he must have seen the opportunity
to administer to me a public thrashing at the supposedly capable
hands of Ian Taylor. Once I heard that it was Taylor who would
be the opponent, I accepted immediately, and it was shortly
after that that my shoddy treatment at the hands of CEC began.
Although Casey seemed thrilled initially by my participation,
within days of my acceptance there seemed to be a deliberate effort
on the part of the organizers to downplay the entire event, for
reasons I can only suspect but will hazard a guess at later. An
inordinate amount of time passed before I was given final
confirmation of both the location and time of the debate, before
which I obviously could not begin my own promotion. During this
time, I was discouraged by Casey from inviting any members of the
media and was asked not to advertise the debate anywhere off of
the campus of the U of Manitoba, where I had been a faculty member.
Finally, only ten(!) days before the debate, I received from Casey
the poster to be used for promotion, a poster which I not only
considered unacceptably slanted and biased, but which mentioned
a three dollar admission fee that I had not been warned about, and
which would have been enough to discourage a number of students
from attending. The explanation for the admission was to cover
the costs of the event, even though CEC publicly claimed to be
"sponsoring" the event and were getting the hall for free. Casey
then explained that the fee was also to cover the cost of the
honoraria for the two speakers, something I had never asked for.
Despite my protests, Casey and Lewis remained adamant on the
issue of the admission fee.
By this time, I had very little patience left, and proceeded to
print and distribute my own version of the poster, adding the
qualifier that there was no charge for students, justifying this
by stating that I was refusing my honorarium and would personally
cover any shortfall in Taylor's. Having finally dealt with all of
these indignities, I assumed that the worst was now over and that
all I had to worry about was the debate itself. Wrong again.
When I entered the lecture hall the evening of the debate, I was
astonished to find a four page CEC handout being distributed to
all attendees. Advertised as a debate evaluation form, it was chock-
full of absolutely absurd scientific misrepresentation and
creationist bias, clearly designed to portray creationism in as
favorable a light as possible. Entitled "Science -- A Search for
Truth", it opened by stating that one Winnipeg poll indicated that
72% of people in Winnipeg wanted a balanced treatment of creation
science and evolution in public schools. It then went on to quote
(hideously out of context) a carefully extracted excerpt of a policy
statement of the National Academy of Sciences, which promoted, among
other things, "...intellectual freedom, without religious, political,
or ideological restrictions...". This was particularly galling to
me, as CEC head Lewis had, only months earlier, attended a
presentation of mine where he read this same excerpt during the
audience feedback time. I carefully explained at that time that the
statement referred to the freedom of creationists (and anyone else)
to do whatever research they wished and had nothing to do with
allowing pseudo-science into the public school classroom. Despite
this, Lewis was using the same misrepresentation yet again.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Creationist "debating" #2 of
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:19:50
--------
EID:8e2d 1c296a60
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d304ac6
---------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Rob P. J. Day
Title: Public Debate with a Creationist
Following this was yet another out of context quote, this by G.
G. Simpson, which deserves careful examination since it demonstrates
clearly the lack of scholarship on the part of whoever designed the
handout. The statement attributed to Simpson, referenced only as
"Science Vol. 45", reads as follows:
"It is inherent in any definition of science that the
statements that can not be checked by observation are
not really about anything ... or at the very least they
are not science."
Based on this, the handout then concludes that, since neither
evolution nor creation were observed, falsifiable or repeatable,
"What part of evolution or creation can be considered a science?"
What I did not realize at the time was that a handout that I had
by Ed Friedlander, discussing creationist misquotations, described
exactly this example. The same quote is contained in the work
"Evolution is Not Science (I)", by Duane Gish, and reads as follows:
"It is inherent in any definition of science that statements
that cannot be checked by observation are not really about
anything ... or at the very least they are not science."
Compare these two versions with what Simpson actually wrote:
"It is inherent in any acceptable definition of science that
statements that cannot be checked by observations are not really
(Italics) about (End italics) anything -- or at the very least
they are not science."
In the first place, Simpson was discussing armchair speculation
about life on other planets and, in this context, his statement
is perfectly reasonable. This context was carefully removed.
However, note how the CEC quote has omitted the word "acceptable"
and changed the hyphen to ellipses, normally used to denote missing
text, which is not happening here but is more consistent with
Gish's incorrect reproduction of the quote. Conclusive evidence that
the quote came from secondhand sources is that the reference is
simply wrong. The correct reference to Simpson's article, given by
Friedlander, is p. 769, vol. 143, not volume 45, which makes it
abundantly clear that, wherever the quote came from, it was not
from the original source, a practise quite common among creationists.
It is likely that whoever designed the handout never read Simpson's
original article, and had no idea what its subject was.
If this was not enough, the audience was then invited to evaluate
the debate based on a number of points, the first three of which
I include here and whose merits I leave to the reader to ponder:
1) What are the presuppositions of the debaters?
2) What are the facts -- observable, repeatable, falsifiable?
3) What are the assumptions?
The remainder of the form was little better, asking the attendee to
consider the speaker's academic credentials. Apparently, the poor
speaker was to be judged on virtually everything except the logical
consistency of his presentation.
At this point, it is vital to point out a short but crucial exchange
that I had with Casey weeks before the debate, in which I insisted on
two conditions for the debate, which he accepted. The first was that
there be no restriction on what either speaker could discuss with
respect to creationism or evolution; the second, that there be
absolutely no evangelism allowed by either Taylor or the audience,
and that the moderator would enforce this. Before the debate began,
I approached the moderator and reminded him of these conditions, to
which he agreed. Having won the coin toss, I elected to give my
30-minute presentation first, and I wasted no time.
An article in the U of Manitoba student newspaper covering the debate
describes it best: "Mr. Day opened debate with his arguments against
creation science. He immediately went on the attack, calling
creationism 'wretched science'." In fact, this was just in my title
slide. I defined creation science as a belief in the literal accuracy
of Genesis of the Old Testament with respect to human origins and
history, but added what I believe is an important qualifier. I
pointed out that this belief is clearly religious in nature and, as
such, people are entitled to hold this belief just as they are
entitled to hold any religious beliefs they choose. What
distinguishes the creationists is their additional qualifier that
this belief is supported by scientific evidence, and that creationism
is based on objective, honest scientific research, which is a very
different thing indeed. I further emphasized that my criticism was
not aimed at the religion involved, but at the allegedly scientific
basis of creation science. This was not, and would not become, an
exercise in religion bashing.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Creationist "debating" #3 of
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:20:38
--------
EID:4eec 1c296a80
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d304af6
---------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Rob P. J. Day
Title: Public Debate with a Creationist
My next slide asked the question "But is it science?", and answered
this question with quotes from Drs. Duane Gish and Henry Morris
admitting that creationism has no scientific basis. My next slide,
"What is it then?", had answers from Gish and creationist Richard
Elmendorf openly admitting that creationism had a religious
foundation.
Having demonstrated that the creationists themselves admit that
creationism is not science but religion, I next turned my attention
to the demand for "equal time", explaining the implications of such
a notion, such as the flat earth being introduced into geography
classes. For support, I held up an issue of the periodical "Flat
Earth News", to show that there was no notion so unorthodox that
it did not have its champions.
The next slide was, in my opinion, the most important of the
presentation, as it explained why the audience was going to hear
nothing about evolution during my entire presentation. I compared
two scenarios: what we have now, "Evolution In, Creationism Out,"
with what the creationists, with their demand for "equal time",
seem to be asking for, "Evolution In, Creationism In." I then
pointed out that, in comparing the two scenarios, there was NO
DIFFERENCE IN THE STATUS OF EVOLUTION; that is, both evolutionists
and creationists agree that evolution should be taught and evolution
was therefore not the issue here. Rather, the controversy hinged on
the inclusion of creation science in the public school curriculum;
my task, in wanting to exclude it from science classes, would be to
show that it did not qualify as science, while Taylor's job, in
trying to include it, would be to defend it. I stated that any
attacks on evolution by Taylor would be completely irrelevant,
since evolution clearly was not an issue. In doing so, I deprived
Taylor of his most effective weapon. This approach was, in fact,
successful far beyond my expectations, as there was not a single
objection to my lack of discussion of evolution during the audience
time, and it left me free to use my entire presentation to
eviscerate creation science.
(Actually, I had a secret weapon to back me up on this in case
anyone protested. In a previous letter to me, Casey had unwisely
discussed the format for the debate, writing, in part, "... we
expect you'll make a case for why [creation science] is not science
while Ian will make a case for it being science." If anyone had
objected to my presentation, I would simply have produced the letter
from Casey, explaining that I was fulfilling my agreement to the
letter. This was never necessary.)
I then explained that it would be impossible to dissect all of the
"evidences" used by creationists to support their case, so I
concentrated on a single example -- Taylor's own population growth
curve, obtained from his book, which showed how a single couple
4300 years ago could have produced a world population of 5 billion
today. I demonstrated how the formula used is hopelessly flawed
and contrived, since it assumes a perfectly uniform world population
growth rate to two decimal places for the last 4300 years (the
alleged time since the Flood). What makes the formula even more
indefensible is that it contradicts a literal reading of the Old
Testament since it forces the Exodus to have occurred no earlier
than 346 A.D. In a spirit of fairness(?), I invited the audiencw
to ask Taylor about it later, to give him the chance to defend it.
I then simply listed another dozen or so other "evidences" currently
in vogue among the creationists (moon dust, dinosaur and man tracks,
the Archaeopteryx hoax, etc.), and explained that, because of time,
I could not deal with each one but that each had no scientific value
and anyone was welcome to ask me about them later.
After briefly discussing the creationist talent for misquotation
and misrepresentation of legitimate scientists, it was time to go
for the jugular. I proceeded to demonstrate that creationism had
a blatantly religious foundation by displaying excerpts from the
CSAO's own Fall 1990 Newsletter, in which an editorial stated that
a central tenet of CSAO was "To glorify God as he has revealed
himself ... to obey him and enjoy him now and forever. Certainly
this is central to CSAO ... Creation evangelism is indeed a major
unique thrust of CSAO." I emphasized that, if groups wished to
gather together and publish for the purposes of evangelism, I had
no objection. However, it was deception for the CSAO, and
consequently Ian Taylor, to indulge in evangelism in their
newsletter, then to state at their presentations that creation
science has nothing to do with religion.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Creationist "debating" #4 of
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:21:22
--------
EID:8cad 1c296aa0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d304b22
---------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Rob P. J. Day
Title: Public Debate with a Creationist
Someone later told me that, during this portion of my presentation,
Taylor was becoming noticeably uncomfortable, but I was not quite
finished. Having exposed the religious basis of the CSAO, I turned
my attention to Taylor himself. Using extracts from a 1987 debate
between Taylor and Fred Edwords, I showed that even Taylor admits
that creation science is indefensible as science. In responding
to a question about how all of the animals had been collected for
their journey on the Ark, Taylor answered:
"... it was not Noah who went out and collected the animals:
God did that. He sent them in. So that took the problem
out of Noah's hands, didn't it? It also takes it out of
our hands."
In doing so, Taylor had abandoned any hope of scientific explanation
for this aspect of creation science, had clearly thrown up his hands,
and simply invoked divine intervention in an attempt to salvage his
model.
In case there was any further doubt about the religious foundation
for Taylor's beliefs, I produced, as my final exhibit, a personal
letter of Taylor's written five years ago in which he openly
admitted,
"My faith is based upon a personal and experiential
relationship with Jesus Christ and my mandate in writing
IN THE MINDS OF MEN was to help others find that relationship.
If Genesis, the foundation document, is shown to be true,
then the remaining books describing salvation are more readily
accepted."
I emphasized that, if Taylor, or anyone else, wished to write a book
to share their experiences, to promote religion, to evangelize, or
whatever, they were certainly free to do so. However, it was
deceitful for Taylor to write a book for that purpose only to try
to pass it off as a science book when its primary purpose was, as
he had admitted in the letter, evangelism.
At that point, I was told that my thirty minutes were up, and Ian
Taylor took the floor for his defense of creation science. I was
pleased with having gone first, since it gave me the opportunity
to undermine as many of his potential arguments as possible, and
I was curious to see just how he attempted to recover. What
followed was a virtually content-free discussion of the sorry state
of science education, at least in Taylor's opinion, with a few
personal attacks on (who else?) Charles Darwin. The audience was
told about some science textbooks which were published as recently
as 1972 (this is recent?) which contained obsolete information, that
Darwin stole the ideas of evolution from Lamarck, and that some
schools are actually teaching astrology in their classes. Taylor's
brief foray into creation science consisted of only a few seconds
discussion about his pet project, the alleged Archaeopteryx hoax,
and an explanation that the Great Flood produced the current fossil
record by "hydrological sorting." Quite honestly, it was unclear
what point Taylor was trying to make, since he stated that, "It is
not an objection to evolution, but an objection to such interpretation
shown as fact." What this is supposed to mean is beyond me. In total,
Taylor's presentation seemed to be mostly philosophical, and he
managed to avoid any use whatsoever of the phrase "creation science."
(One member of the audience later told me that he was so frustrated
with Taylor's talk that he wanted an opportunity to question him
later, just to ask him, "Mr. Taylor, what is creation science?")
After skirting the issue completely, Taylor concluded his speech with
some rather blatant evangelism, linking evolution with atheism,
accusing evolutionism of dismissing "God and his rules," and
concluded, "If we continue to disregard the laws of God in the schools,
then welcome to Huxley's brave new world." While this was happening,
the moderator made no effort to interrupt in spite of his agreement
that there would be no evangelism. When Taylor sat down and I arose
to start my five-minute rebuttal, I angrily approached the moderator
and, in a voice loud enough to be heard throughout the hall, demanded
to know why he had broken our agreement. I repeated the conditions
that I had insisted on and asked again why they were not upheld.
The moderator's response was to demand that I start my rebuttal as
he was now starting the timer. Seeing that further discussion was
pointless, I did just that.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Creationist "debating" #5 of
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:22:04
--------
EID:4c6c 1c296ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d304b4c
---------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Rob P. J. Day
Title: Public Debate with a Creationist
In fact, I never had any intention of refuting any of Taylor's
arguments (which was just as well, since there was precious little
to refute). Instead, I spent most of the time reading excerpts
from the book "Christianity and the Age of the Earth," by geologist
and evangelical Christian Davis Young, in which Young shows clearly
and forcefully why creation science is actually harmful to
Christianity, as its nonsensical and pathetic science is more apt
to turn away potential believers than recruit them. As an example,
Young writes, "Can we seriously expect non-Christians to develop a
respect for Christianity if we insist on teaching the brand of science
that creationism brings with it?" Of everything I presented that
evening, this easily had the most impact among Christians in the
audience.
Taylor's response was rather surprising, as he admitted (and I
paraphrase), "Of course we're talking about the Bible here, and
I'm not ashamed to admit that," and again launched into some
obvious evangelism, again with no interference from the moderator.
The floor was finally opened to questions from the audience, and the
moderator was responsible for hand-picking those to ask questions.
(This was yet another opportunity for the organizers to control the
flow of the debate, as several attendees later told me that it was
obvious that the moderator was attempting to pick people sympathetic
to Taylor's case. In fact, the moderator himself came over to my
table later after the question period was over to plead Taylor's
case and criticize my presentation. A paragon of objectivity this
man was not.)
The first questioner understood clearly my criticism of Taylor's
growth curve, and asked Taylor to explain it. Taylor dismissed
my criticism and stated that the values that I had extracted from
his book were only "minimums" and that, if they were increased, the
problem would go away. Taylor did not acknowledge that, if the values
were increased so that intermediate values became valid, the terminal
values would be hopelessly large. This was the THIRD different
defense Taylor has used for his wretched curve. When debating
Richard Wakefield, he dismissed Wakefield's objection with "I've
never heard anything so ridiculous in my life." In a debate with
Fred Edwords, his defense consisted of a rambling exposition,
suggesting that people get a calculator and try it themselves,
all the while avoiding any discussion of the actual results that
they would get. With me, Taylor apparently admits that the values
are wrong and must be increased, without admitting that it would
make the rest of the curve hopelessly inaccurate. One can only
imagine what his next explanation will be.
In response to another question, Taylor digressed to attack my logic
which showed that I had no need to defend evolution. Rather than
present any sort of rational argument against that part of my
presentation, Taylor simply dismissed it as illogical and making
no sense, while providing no evidence whatever. Sadly, I am getting
used to this approach by Taylor by now.
One audience member stated that I had directly accused Taylor of
being dishonest, and demanded that I produce evidence. Actually,
in my discussion of creationist dishonesty, I had produced the
CSAO's Fall 1990 Newsletter and stated that there were at least
three examples of blatant dishonesty in a periodical put out by
Taylor's own organization, and I would be happy to produce evidence
of this in the question period. The attendee understood this to
mean that I accused Taylor personally of this dishonesty. When I
tried to clarify my statement, the young lady refused to listen
and continued to demand that I produce my evidence, even though
another attendee interrupted and agreed with my interpretation.
(This second attendee subsequently had her hand up for over an hour
to ask a question but was never selected by the moderator.) Finally,
I pointed out that Taylor, in his presentation, suggested that the
fossil Archaeopteryx was a forgery, yet when he gave a talk about
this at the recent Creationist Conference in Pittsburgh, one
attendee at the conference, Dr. Kurt Wise, totally rejected his
findings. Yet here was Taylor, promoting the same nonsense, not
admitting that even other creationists disagree with him and accuse
him of having not a shred of evidence. I then invited the young
lady to come down and see my evidence of CSAO dishonesty for herself,
but she declined.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Creationist "debating" #6 of
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:22:48
--------
EID:4d2c 1c296ac0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d304b78
---------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Rob P. J. Day
Title: Public Debate with a Creationist
There were a number of other questions, but my records of that
evening are sadly incomplete, as I had expected the proceedings
To be videotaped and I did not come prepared to take comprehensive
notes. Because of this, there were undoubtedly many moments that
deserve to be discussed that will never get the chance. However,
once the debate officially ended, a number of notable events
happened during the informal discussion period that inevitably
ensues when attendees gather around one of the two speakers.
Several people surrounded my table to ask for any free literature
I might have, and I gave away pamphlets and booklets in copious
quantities. (I drew the line when someone wanted to take my stack
of "Creation/Evolution" journals. There is a limit to my charity.)
There were three memorable individuals at my table who were
obviously not happy with me. The first was the young lady who
demanded I produce evidence of Taylor's dishonesty. When I
produced my evidence of outright lies in the latest CSAO Newsletter
(discussed elsewhere in this newsletter), she refused to read it
and, in a fit of pique, referred to the files and books that I had
brought along and sniffed, "You need all these books, but we only
need one book," clearly referring to the Bible. What possible
response could there be?
Another middle-aged gentleman, with his 8-year-old son, did his
best to discredit me any way he could, and had pumped his son full
of standard creationist nonsense, who now proceeded to explain to
me how lightning striking a tree could cause it to have an
erroneously large radiocarbon date. It was clear that his son
did not have the faintest idea about radiocarbon dating and was
simply regurgitating information he had been fed. This episode
was not irritating so much as depressing.
The third notable individual was none other than the moderator,
who discarded any semblance of fairness and objectivity when he
came to my table to plead Taylor's case and criticize my
presentation. My patience with him had long since vanished anD
I wisely, in my opinion, chose to ignore him.
Apparently, things were considerably more interesting at Taylor's
table, as the sounds of some very hostile conversation constantly
drifted over to me. For the rest of this report, I must depend on
hearsay from other attendees. One report has it that a Catholic
biologist in the audience was extremely unimpressed with Taylor
and his "evidence," and let him know in no uncertain terms. Another
rumor was that a small number of Catholics pressed Taylor for his
opinion on the link between evolution and Christianity, until he
finally admitted that he did not believe the Pope was a Christian,
and that the arguments of these Catholics were "just theology." I
have no way of confirming this, but it certainly makes for
interesting speculation.
Another audience member challenged Taylor to supply the name of a
single school he knew of that was teaching astrology. Taylor
back-pedaled, admitting that such subjects were taught only in
the evening, apparently only as non-credit community service
courses or strictly for entertainment. This is quite a different
accusation from saying that astrology is part of an official
school curriculum.
Another observer happened to be standing within earshot of the
organizer, Lewis, while some attendees were complaining about
Taylor's presentation. One audience member, obviously quite irate,
referred to Taylor as a "buffoon," while another was clearly quite
upset with Lewis for having invited Taylor, complaining that Taylor
had no credibility whatever. Amazingly, Lewis tried to diStance
himself from Taylor by claiming that the audience member was
practising "guilt by association," then tried to claim that he did
not support Taylor and had only provided a forum for the two
participants. No one bought this pathetic attempt at saving
face, whereupon Lewis made things worse by then claiming that
neither participant really had the proper credentials to have
participated. One attendee responded by asking why either of Taylor
or myself was invited in the first place if this was the case. Lewis
also suggested that, if creationists like Duane Gish or Richard
Bliss had been there, the outcome would have been different. It is
amusing to note that, in order to salvage his own reputation, Lewis
has clearly thrown Taylor to the wolves. Apparently, even Lewis
admitted that Taylor's population formula looked bad, and he promised
to ask Taylor about it later.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: Creationist "debating" #7 of 7
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:23:32
--------
EID:8ded 1c296ae0
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d304ba4
---------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Rob P. J. Day
Title: Public Debate with a Creationist
The Fallout
--- -------
Earlier, I had described the rather odd behaviour of the CEC in
organizing the debate, only to then attempt to keep it as quiet
as possible. My suspicion is that Lewis had originally planned to
give the event as much coverage as he could, and only found out
after I had accepted his invitation that I am quite familiar with
Ian Taylor's arguments and presentations and that I would
undoubtedly do well in the exchange. This is the only possible
reason I can think of to explain the concerted effort on the part
of CEC to downplay the debate to the extent that they did. It
would also explain why Taylor said virtually nothing about creation
science, as he must have been aware that I am familiar with most of
the arguments he would otherwise have presented. (Regular readers
of this newsletter may recognize the same strategy used by
creationist Lambert Dolphin at a previous annual meeting of the
Science Teacher's Association of Ontario, in which Dolphin
stripped all creation science out of his public talk when he
found out about the attendance of two members of this
organization (OASIS).)
There was one other event that occurred after the debate that
deserves discussion. Because of what I perceived as outrageously
shoddy treatment at the hands of CEC in organizing the debate, I
wrote Lewis a several page letter, outlining many of the
objections I have listed here in some detail. His response,
accompanied by a seventy-five dollar honorarium which I did not
ask for, is included here in its entirety, verbatim:
Dear Mr. Day,
Just a quick note to acknowledge your letter and to send you
a small honorarium for the debate. I will not bother responding
to your comments for I see little reason for doing so. However,
if you make some of the unfounded accussations[sic] in public
again as you did in the past two episodes I witnessed I might
take the liberty of distributing the evidence that would nulify
[sic] not only your argument but also your credability[sic].
However, perhaps allowing you to continue as you are doing will
be to our benifit [sic].
P.S. I do appreciate your youthful energy and your apparant[sic]
strong convictions. I hope they also have a positive side.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: David Rice
To: All
Sub: If Jesus Was Born In America
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:24:00
--------
EID:020b 1c296b00
MSGID: 1:124/9005.0 2d304bc0
"Why are you lot so interested in wars? If god was an American,
the Bible would probably show Jesus holding a rifle, waving a
flag and quoting passages from the fucking constitution."
- kev@dsbc.icl.co.uk (Kevin Walsh)
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Wanted, Dead or Alive: Randall Terry. (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Larry Sites
To: All
Sub: Backpeddleing the ARK
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:54:10
--------
EID:10ca 066bc60d
MSGID: 1:202/102 2d30495d
PID: TeleMail 1.63/b
The Institute for Creation Research's January 1994 _Acts & Facts_ has an
article titled "Special Report: Noah's Ark: Setting the Record Straight"
by
Dr. John Morris.
Reguarding the CBS show, "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark", Morris
tries to backpeddle from his September postion that George Jammal had been
falsely accused of a hoax. In the Sept. _A&F_ Morris said: "Psychiatric
evaluation of Jammal's taped interview pronounced him to be credible...
His
knowledge of the mountain and its people could hardly have been coached
by
someone who had never been there". At that time, Morris was blaming Dr.
Gerald LaRue with false charges of hoax.
Morris now says that while he never suspected Jammal of lying, he "felt
his
memory of specifics was so weak that he could not pinpoint his route or
location, even when I eventually showed him maps and slides. His story
differed remarkably from those of all other eyewitnesses, and I suspected
he
was mistaken". Morris says he also invited Jammal on 2 expeditions hoping
that a revisit would improve his memory but he declined. Morris explains,"I
suspected that he feared his memory would be exposed as faulty, and the
'one
significant accomplishment' by this minimally employed taxi-driver and night
watchman would be removed". What christian charity.
Morris now says that in hindsight he can see that the whole thing was a
hoax
from the start because 3 of the names given by Jammal when spoken
phonetically are coded vulgarities. Any body know what he is talking about
here?
In Sept, Morris opened his defense of Jammal by describing the CBS show
thus, "Especially powerful were interviews with several who claim to have
seen the Ark. One such 'eyewitness' was George Jammal, know to ICR since
1985".
Now Morris concludes by regreting being taken in even though he "never felt
his story was of any consequence" and that "this event [Jammal's hoax] shows
the depth to which some people will stoop to try to discredit those who
believe the Bible".
Morris concluded his Sept defense of Jammal by implying that _Time_ would
eventually retract it's false claim of hoax but that fundis shouldn't "hold
their breath" because it would be burried in the back pages. Mean while
he
says, "The damage has already been done; the goal has already been
accomplished. Christianity and creation have been given another 'black eye'
in public, with no recourse".
I suggest it is "turncoating" and "backstabing" such as evident above that
gives christianity a real 'black eye' and that no one has to 'stoop' to
discredit bible believers, they do it to themselves.
Peace, Larry
* Wave Rider 1.0 [NR] *
... UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
--- Blue Wave/TG v1.0 [NR]
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From: Starwyn
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Homosexuality
Date: 09 Jan 94 08:02:00
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EID:bca3 1c294040
SB>God does love homosexuals and they definitely deserve to hear
SB>God's word. Although the Gospels do not mention it, I suspect that Jesus
SB>spent time with some homosexuals just as He did with other outcasts of
SB>society. Jesus' sacrifice was for everyone, including homosexuals.
You are one in a million that believe this then. I'm currently arguing with
¨a
fundy on Cult_Info about this very issue.
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
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From: Starwyn
To: Careful Eugene
Sub: Hunting rules for fundies
Date: 09 Jan 94 08:34:00
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EID:83dd 1c294440
Hi sweetie! You're here!!! Good to see you back once again...I've missed
¨you.
Saint Starwyn*
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
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From: Starwyn
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: stuff
Date: 09 Jan 94 08:39:00
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EID:52bb 1c2944e0
I can't find the post you responded to, but I'll try to remember most of
it.
I do live my life the same way i teach my coven to live theirs. If I can't
¨wa
lk the walk, then I'm not worthy of being a teacher and Priestess. I stand
¨be
hind anything I spout, and if I'm wrong, I'll admit it. I have always ¨respect
ed you for the same reasons. I don't expect anyone to live by *my* ¨standards
or religous creed, but I do expect them to allow me the right to ¨live by
mine
.
As for Racheal, for a 13 year old, she's a pretty good kid, actually...but
¨th
en, she has a wonderful mother!
--- SuperBBS 1.17-2 (Eval)
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: A HolySmoker's Dyslexicon
Date: 03 Jan 94 05:52:00
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EID:94d7 1c232e80
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DA5
-> Marty Leipzig got back to All Re: A HolySmoker's Dyslexicon
ML>
Where can a I get the book, _previous_? Was it
written by Archy Ayic?
ML> WINE: A fermented concoction of the Devil, drunk by
ML> Christians during Communion. The beverage of choice in the
ML> ***And here endeth the lesson****
What happened to X Y & Z? After all, that's the Church I started
awhile back...
Nice stuff! ROTF!!!!!
... "It's good news week!, (someone dropped a bomb somewhere)"
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Atheists do good
Date: 03 Jan 94 06:04:00
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EID:b61b 1c233080
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DA6
-> Jesse C. Jones got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Atheists do good
DC> come up with just by reading responses to your "Atheists do
DC> not do good things" rule.
JCJ> Give me a break, Dan. Taking your aunt to Church is hardly doing
JCJ> great service to others.
Jesse, it's the little things that one does for others that
mean more than the attempted big sweeping changes. My
taking my aunt to church does more for her than you'll
ever know. Further, her attendance allows her to
interact in a positive manner with others at the church.
Remember the acorn?
> How about a standard of giving 10% of your
JCJ> earnings _and_ of your time and energy to helping others?
Typical beaurocratic comment. Throw money at a
problem and hope it goes away. It is only the last part of
you statement that makes any sense.
... I'm so broke I can't even pay attention
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Gwen Todd
Sub: Back in the USSR
Date: 03 Jan 94 06:46:00
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EID:8f6e 1c2335c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DA7
-> Gwen Todd got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Back in the USSR
GT> hate or hurt others because of the color of their skin or other
GT> differences.
I think it's Euro-centrisism. Even Australia is considered
"Down-Under". The way the globe has been designed promotes
a belief that the countries to the north are "up". That is
equated with "good" and "powerful".
GT> you ever heard the pagan version of Amazing Grace??
Thanks for sending the text. As to Amazing Grace, I didn't
know it was religious when I was younger. It was not part
of "approved" songs in the Catholic psalm book.
GT> have to ask how much of it's power comes from the xtian buttons in
GT> people's psyches...
The first time I really "heard" the song was in the movie
_Alice's Restaurant_ Seemed very apropriate in the scene
it was used in.
... The death of dogma is the birth of reality.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Bible
Date: 03 Jan 94 06:51:00
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EID:b35e 1c233660
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DA8
-> Steve Bedard got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Bible
DC> SB> described in the Bible before the Babylonian exile are
DC>fictional.
DC>So, Steve, please explain how that proves that the flood
DC>occured. Thank you.
SB> It doesn't.
Then, is there any evidence that it did occur?
... +Origin: Brown Nose BBS - kissing ass for Jesus!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Circular...
Date: 03 Jan 94 06:55:00
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EID:174f 1c2336e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DA9
-> Steve Bedard got back to Don Martin Re: Circular...
DM>generally following a somewhat emphasized definite article (THE
DM>Antichrist),
SB> "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the
SB> antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is
SB> how we know it is the last hour." 1 John 2:18
Sounds to me like John is saying that the time of the anti-christ
had arrived at the time he wrote that passage. Seems to be
taking a bit of time for the events that are supposed to happen
to unfold.....
... The future isn't what it used to be.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 03 Jan 94 07:04:00
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EID:6216 1c233880
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DAA
-> Jesse C. Jones got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Discipleship
JCJ> say, and do not believe, that _all_ ethics are God's work.
DC> Let's see what Jesse says about this----
JCJ> Yes, they are, David. And that is in no way inconsistent with my
> statement that _for the most part_, atheists simply do not do good and
> ethical things.
DC> Well, if you didn't directly say it, you imply that your
DC> god is required to do the good works.
JCJ> Dan, do you not understand the difference between "all" and
JCJ> "most"?
Do you understand that you have stated that _most_ atheists
do not do good works? May we see your proof? Also, it
would be interesting to see what good works require your
god to impliment.
... "This god's dead." "No, he moved." "You pushed him!"
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Dss
Date: 03 Jan 94 07:05:00
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EID:134d 1c2338a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DAB
-> Steve Bedard got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Dss
DC>Perhaps nothing more than another round of trivia.... Glad
DC>to see that you have at least done a little research!
SB> Thanks. Bring on the next question.
Ok, who is Elahan?
... "Hands that help are better than lips that pray."
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 03 Jan 94 07:55:00
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EID:5949 1c233ee0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DAC
-> Steve Bedard got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Maybe You Can Tell Me
DC> SB> but that does not mean that no evidence exists.
DC>Well, Steve, how has that evidence? You imply that there is
DC>some evidence. So, can we have a peek at it?
SB> I did not claim that I had access to that evidence. I simply said
SB> that it may exist.
DC>BTW, thanks for the tagline----->>>
DC>... I believe that God does inflict His presense upon the earth. S
DC>Bedard
SB> That will be five bucks, please. ;-]
Sure, as soon as you provide the evidence that you say "may
exist". BTW, the $5 does exist, but will remain in my
pocket until you provide the documentation.
Meanwhile, feel free to help add to my evergrowing SB.TXT
tagline files.
... Faith: an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Music of the beast
Date: 03 Jan 94 08:07:00
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EID:d6d1 1c2340e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DAD
-> Jonny Vee got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Music of the beast
> Now I got this computer and modem and I relax with flame mail!
JV> I'm starting to tire of the flame mail. I'm even thinking of dropping
Just think of the BBS experience as a method of getting in the
mood to jam....
JV> when she comes home and plays country-western "music" too loud. Not
so
I can live with that, as long as it's not about how the guy's
horse left him for another cowboy.
JV> offspring wait until she goes to work and then play rap "music" early
"Rap Music" is just another oxymoron.
JV> loves that, especially when I play the same four bars over and over
JV> again trying to get it just right....
Well, you can't get a gig unless you get it right. She'll come
around, or maybe move out. :)
... The Earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only much bigger.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Religon
Date: 03 Jan 94 08:11:00
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EID:1114 1c234160
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DAE
-> Steve Bedard got back to Marilyn Burge Re: Religon
MB>each have a little of truth about them, and much of falsity.
SB> Do you have evidence that all religons are mostly false or is it only
SB> your opinion?
Do you have evidence that _any_ religion is completly based
on verifiable facts?
... If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Teddy Bears
Date: 03 Jan 94 08:19:00
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EID:3e32 1c234260
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DAF
-> Steve Bedard got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Teddy Bears
DC>that you dust off your old teddy bear, and learn that
DC>comfort comes not from your bible, but from within you.
SB> Although there is some comfort in the Bible from stories that
SB> encourage people who are going through difficult circumstances, my
SB> main source of comfort comes from the God that the Bible describes
SB> rather than from the Bible itself.
Try this exercise.... Pretend that the bible does not nor
ever has existed. Would you still have a concept of the
god that you say is described in the bible?
You are finding you concept in a book that has been shown
to be highly edited, added to, subtracted from, as well
as being downright contradictory. Without your interpretation,
or that of those directing you, you would not have the
need for the bible's view of your god-head.
... Faith in a god is fear of facing the future.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids
Date: 03 Jan 94 09:13:00
--------
EID:f3bd 1c2349a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB0
-> Steve Bedard got back to Fredric Rice Re: Aids
Steve, first you say that yours is the only way....
SB> Sorry, but Christian morality is the only hope this world has. To bad
SB> the world is going to refuse to follow it.
Then you say...
SB> I have not demanded that morality be forced on anyone. I have simply
SB> suggested it as a possible solution to be accepted or rejected.
You can't have it both ways. And you can't prove that your
way is the only way any more than you can prove that your
god exists.
... The secret of flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Worrell
Sub: Dss
Date: 03 Jan 94 09:32:00
--------
EID:d7a6 1c234c00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB1
-> David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Dss
DC> extolled the power of women. Not something that a male
DC> dominated society would want as part fo their prime beliefs.
DW> Well, originally I thought it was because the scrolls were gathered
by
DW> the Essenes, and I was of the opinion (might be wrong) that they were
DW> a predominately male sect.
From the archaelogical evidence, that is correct...
DC> However, ther really is one very sound reason as to the
DC> exclusion of the book from the DSS.....
DW> Tell Me Damnit!!! ...
Ok, it's dammed... What do you want me to do next? :
Seriously, Steve Bedard had come up with the correct answer
a few packets ago. As FIDO seems to have farted, at least in
this zone lately, I better fill you in.
The Book of Esther does not have a single reference in it to
god. Makes it rather unique. That, at least, IMHO, is one
of the reasons it is not among the DDS.
I'm waiting to see what Steve has to say about Elahan right now..
... Let me know immediately, if you don't get this message.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Rob Bamford
Sub: Re: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 03 Jan 94 09:38:00
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EID:fe8e 1c234cc0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB2
-> Rob Bamford got back to Tyler A. Wunder Re: Re: Fact vs. Faith
RB> Take note, also, that the Bible was written by numerous authors (Old
RB> and New Testaments) over many hundreds of years, yet while the majority
RB> of the authors did't know each other, their writings have stayed in
RB> harmony with each other. Rob
Bob, do you care to start that off by explaining how the day
of the last supper seems to be off a tad when comparing the
different gospels?
... +Origin: MASTICATOR! NETWORK--CHEWING THE FAT WITH JESUS
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Jason Rosendale
Sub: Re: Fundy denies fundy de
Date: 03 Jan 94 09:48:00
--------
EID:6e49 1c234e00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB3
-> Jason Rosendale got back to Hector Plasmic Re: Re: Fundy denies fundy
de
JR> #include Hector Plasmic
JR> #include James Conwell
HP> existence, or heard Steve Bedard claim virgin birth?
JR> Whoa there. When you say that Steve claims virgin birth, we're
JR> talking about the birth of Jesus, not the birth of Steve, right?
Have no fear! A new set of bubble gum cards should be out
shortly. They will depict all deities, demi-gods and other
such beings that have had virgin births...
"Getcher Virgie Cards! Can't tell the virgies with out
your virgie cards!" From the makers of Fundy Cards (tm)
... If I had been the Virgin Mary, I would have said No.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Good?
Date: 03 Jan 94 09:56:00
--------
EID:db85 1c234f00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB4
-> Steve Bedard got back to Dave Schultz Re: Good?
SB> The confusion comes from the definition of "good". People can do good
SB> as the world sees good without the Holy Spirit. However, people can
SB> not do good as God sees good unless they do it in the power of the
SB> Holy Spirit.
Steve, have you ever stopped to think about the way that your
god interprets "good"? It seems the the good your god
requires is the destruction of those that happen to have
land that he wants, or beliefs that are a bit different.
Acts of real good do not require that a deity be present.
SB> * WinQwk 2.0b#1175 * In the beginning was the Word...
And the word is destroy the non-believers........
... And Satan said to God, "But where will YOU find a lawyer?
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Worrell
Sub: HMS Noah
Date: 03 Jan 94 10:02:00
--------
EID:a758 1c235040
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB5
-> David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa Re: HMS Noah
DC> Hey, wait a minute! If it was a dam thing, why didn't he use
DC> it to _stop_ the flood????? Sure would have beaten to hell and
DW> Silly Mortal, you didn't notice the 'n' on the end of the damN.
Sure I noticed! The 'N' implies that he did not build an ark
but dam-"N-d" the flood back from his log cabin. I can prove
it, as I have Noah's book in front of me... Let's see, I have
that cataloged under his last name--"Webster".
DW> Besides, the penguins didn't need ice, Noah and his family just sat
DW> around and pray _really_ hard and Gawd provided everything...
If they didn' have ice, how did they make their martinis during
their cruise?
... Duct tape is the work of the Devil
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Worrell
Sub: Joke about Star Goat
Date: 03 Jan 94 10:14:00
--------
EID:c152 1c2351c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB6
-> David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Joke about Star Goat
DC> tends to be non-violent. 'Course, that's relative, if you
DC> happen to be on a planet that he has intended for lunch....
DW> But Frederic tells me I can have a jihad!!!!
Well, if he says it's ok, then go for it! Riding a horse
in a cattle round up sounds like fun..
Gee-haw!! Git a long little dogma!
(Can't wait to brand them for the 666 ranch)
... Alex, I'll take "Things Only David Worrell Knows" for $1000.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 03 Jan 94 10:23:00
--------
EID:5949 1c2352e0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB7
-> Steve Bedard got back to Jonny Vee Re: Maybe You Can Tell Me
SB> I asked you a while back what caused you to leave Christianity. Was
SB> it only because of the hypocrisy you saw?
ROTL-LMAO-WACIMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even if there is more, isn't that a good enough reason?!?!!??
... 9.2 on the Sphincter Scale.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Keith Jones
Sub: no not that
Date: 03 Jan 94 10:28:00
--------
EID:0edb 1c235380
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB8
-> Keith Jones got back to Ernest Gainey Re: no not that
KJ> The fool hath said in his heart there is no God. That's what God
KJ> says anyway.
Then you're fooling yourself.
Do you have a recording of this being said by god? What
makes him the authority, if there is no evidence of his
existance?
... Jesus saves sinners, and redeems them for cash and prizes
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Nuke Japan twice (It's th
Date: 03 Jan 94 10:30:00
--------
EID:87a8 1c2353c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DB9
-> Marilyn Burge got back to Fredric Rice Re: Nuke Japan twice (It's th
MB> day that I didn't spend more than 5 hours there. That's it! I'm a
MB> mutant. I always wondered why nobody understood me, and now I know.
MB> It's because I'm not one of THEM!
Marilyn, I take it you figured out where those large seed
pods in your back yard came from....
... Invertebrate punster....so slug me.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: David Worrell
Sub: Star Goat merely smiles
Date: 03 Jan 94 10:41:00
--------
EID:6917 1c235520
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DBA
-> David Worrell got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Star Goat merely smiles
FR> target that richly deserves a grand dismemberment. Randall Terry,
FR> perhaps?
DW> I detect the foul stench of a schism here. Dan Ceppa tells me SG is
DW> non-violent. Who do I believe????
As in all belief forms, you examine everything and believe
nothing. Besides schism is a large crack in rocks and
has nothing to do with the bird family nor the smell thereof.
... NEWS FLASH: Taglines discovered in Dead Sea Scrolls!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Dan Lafferty
Sub: Steve's PR for your relig
Date: 03 Jan 94 10:50:00
--------
EID:847f 1c235640
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DBB
-> Dan Lafferty got back to Robert Curry Re: Steve's PR for your relig
DL> It would appear that you have a dificulty with the DEFINITION of
DL> "bigot". My Webster's defines it as follows:
DL> n. someone obstinately and INTOLERANTLY devoted to his own beliefs,
DL> creed, or party. (emphasis mine)
DL> Sorry I can not leave you in your state of bliss, but a creed stating
DL> that it considders homosexuality a sin does not make it bigotted. On
I take it you have a strong belief on homosexuality?
DL> Christianity do practice bigotry by their hate for homosexuals as a
DL> group.
So, what euphanism do you use to describe it?
> Mine does not, though we do not accept homosexuals into the
DL> church that does not make us bigots, though it does prevent us from
DL> being hypocrytes.
Not "prevent" but "make", as it does define you the hypocrite.
You claim not to be bigotted, but insist that you must
avoid a particular goup of people as "sinful" and "unworthy".
I see nothing in your definition of "bigot" that does not
parallel your actions and confirm your prejudice.
... Bigot: won't think. Fool: Can't Think. Slave: dare not
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
Date: 03 Jan 94 11:08:00
--------
EID:7c57 1c235900
MSGID: 1:350/401 86212DBC
-> Martin Goldberg got back to Dan Ceppa Re: THE FACT AND THEORY OF EV
DC> water..... Pray tell, what would this mixture make? Ahhh, more
DC> water!
MG> I don't know what the point of all this is, but remember that you can
MG> dilute wter with certain alcohols to infinity
I was using the basic dictionary definition that uses
water as the diluting agent....
... WHO? WHAT? WHEN? WHERE? HOW? WHY? Present you evidence please!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Basis Of Belief
Date: 04 Jan 94 08:17:00
--------
EID:78e3 1c244220
MSGID: 1:350/401 86222A8D
-> Marilyn Burge got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Basis Of Belief
On (28 Dec 93) Dan Ceppa wrote to Steve Bedard...
DC> SB> * WinQwk 2.0b#1175 * Our God is an awsome God!
DC> Yep, believe in him, and he won't torture you for all
DC> eternity.
MB> But he gives you a CHOICE! (Sounds more like corecion to me.)
Well, gee, Marilyn, aren't Hobson's choices still good and
conducive to free will? I you disagree, I will send you
that GIF of Steve Bedard to you, 10x, Collect, during prime time
phone rates. :)
... Send Monopoly Money to your Favorite TV Evangelist
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Styx Allum
Sub: DeBunkers: Archie & Edith
Date: 04 Jan 94 08:32:00
--------
EID:4e6c 1c244400
MSGID: 1:350/401 86222A8E
-> Styx Allum got back to Dan Ceppa Re: DeBunkers: Archie & Edith
> ML> Ahhh, he's just goin' with the flow...
SA> It's a solo act.
You win, Han down. Don't forget to say "hi" to Luke and
Leia for me.
SA> I go down to the bank when I want to float alone.
You may want to try that new Czech boat. Makes your money
go a lot longer. Most banks can get it to float for
5 days. You can bank book on that.
SA> paddle my pants. Butting heads with fundies is best left to Goats
SA> that can stand the smell of someone else's dairy air.
Worse thing about that, the smells the same not matter which
end the Goat hits the fundy from. Kinda like this echo
feed lot. A real swine way to replace the pen. Get toilette
the paper saved and doing it all fir trees.
... Ben Dover & C. Howit Feels - Attorneys at Law
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Dss
Date: 04 Jan 94 08:37:00
--------
EID:5a2c 1c2444a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86222A8F
-> Joshua Lee got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Dss
DC>>Kinda strange that the Book of Esther was not present in
Thanks for the addition info on that book.
JL> The sages of the Talmud attributed this to the book's outcome, which
JL> was excessively vengefull. However, the holiday of Purim didn't
Though I worked in a Jewish nursing home, I don't recall
much on that particular holiday... Anything else that may
be interesting that you could add?
... I am Not a number! I am a free man!: #6
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: Morality
Date: 04 Jan 94 09:14:00
--------
EID:2d25 1c2449c0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86222A90
-> John Musselwhite got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Re: Morality
DC> out in this country. The second and later wives have
DC> virtually no standing in any court in this country.
JM> Mormon) and in British Columbia as well. They hit the news once
JM> in a while here. I question this particular form of polygamy
JM> though... Being religiously motivated they don't seem to have
JM> the same attitudes as those I know of in similar situations
JM> driven by their own social needs.
Amazing how people cling to old religous beliefs. The
habits die hard. My mother still doesn't eat meat on
Friday, though she doesn't get upset any more if she
happens to forget.
... I'm having a hard time swallowing this. Can I have a dogma bag?
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Ron Stringfellow
Sub: Ron Eats Pi
Date: 04 Jan 94 09:24:00
--------
EID:2908 1c244b00
MSGID: 1:350/401 86222A91
-> Ron Stringfellow got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Ron Eats Pi
RS> HEllo Dan,
Hi, Fun-Ron!
DC> Consistant? As in the OT version of the vengeful god vs. the
DC> NT version of the benevolent god? Admit it Ron, your view
RS> Shall people judge you just by your actions or shall we include
RS> your motives? Geesh man even the courts of the land demand a motive.
So, shall we judge your god by the many that he has slew, or
required to be slain by his minions? BTW, motive goes to
show reasons for sentencing. It is not a requirement for
a conviction.
RS> ! Origin: The Revelation BBS - Without HIM, We Can Do Nothing -
With him, you can only do what your masters tell you you
can do. I hope they told you it's ok to breath. Then again,
the sceen on your post does look a lot bluer than normal....
... Pi R Squared? No. Pie R round, Cornbread R square!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: The Fact And Theory O
Date: 04 Jan 94 09:41:00
--------
EID:3e52 1c244d20
MSGID: 1:350/401 86222A92
-> John Musselwhite got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Re: The Fact And Theory O
DC> water..... Pray tell, what would this mixture make? Ahhh, more
DC> water!
JM> Well, you COULD dilute the water with cheap scotch if you are
JM> so inclined. It's a sin to use a single malt for that.
That would be blasphemous! The only water that I allow
in a single malt is a lonely ice cube that never has time
to melt. Damn shame that stuff's gotten so expensive....
JM> rather tasty rye (Canadian) whiskey... Mind you I only like
JM> about one part water in there, usually contained in a frozen
JM> state. B-})
I understand that at this time of year, all water is required
by law to be frozen in Canada..... 8-}
... Give to Atheism - the original non-prophet organization!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: DeBunkers: Archie and Edi
Date: 06 Jan 94 06:29:00
--------
EID:efb0 1c2633a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86242DA3
-> Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa Re: DeBunkers: Archie and Edi
DC> road kill. Unfortunately, the semi's have been leaving
DC> only some rather nastey looking hamburger of late...
ML> "You kill it, we grill it." -The RoadKill Cafe.
There's a book that used to be available at the Denver
Airport--- "How to Select and Prepare Road Kill"
DC> Hey, it was a sand well. Worked out just fine, a little coarse,
DC> at times, but not too bad...
ML> Seems you've dune drifted...
Nah, I is up! No forLorna Doone for me.
DC> It's a cinch you don't have a bitt of a clue. Maybe we should
DC> put a halter to this......
ML> Surrey you can mean this? Whoa unto ewe...
It's the fringe elements on top that are causing that. And
that last line of yours was ba-aad!
DC> I hope he's not feeding them sea gulls trying to make them
DC> live forever. A guy got in trouble for that at the Washington
DC> State Zoo.
Hey, you forgot to ask how he got in trouble!??!!!!!
ML> I like to feed seagulls (a.k.a. "sky-rats") Alka-Seltzer. You
Mr Ranger isn't gonna like that, Marty!
... The secret of flying is to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Don't insult STYX
Date: 06 Jan 94 07:05:00
--------
EID:da22 1c2638a0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86242DA4
-> Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Don't insult STYX
ML> Ugh! Me heap dizzy. -Chugwater
DC> Wasn't he married to Lucille Ball?
ML> No. He's the Native American Patron Saint of Field Trips.
They have regularly scheduled trips to Sally. Forth time
I've heard that today. Must be from her days in flying. Nun
of those old shows were sin dictated, gank thod!
... Oy, Rocky, vatch me pull a Rabbi out of my hat!
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Peter Vanderkam
Sub: MAYBE YOU CAN TELL ME
Date: 06 Jan 94 07:42:00
--------
EID:b496 1c263d40
MSGID: 1:350/401 86242DA5
-> Peter Vanderkam got back to Marilyn Burge Re: MAYBE YOU CAN TELL ME
MB> The Bible is a compendium of writings that have been dug up.
PV> By whom? In addition, your statement here could be interpreted as
PV> meaning that these writings were dusty old relics of ancient
PV> religious customs which somebody had found up on an attic of an
Actually, the original documents that the bible is based on
were found around 1945 in some caves near Qumran.
PV> abandoned house. Nothing could be further from the truth. The books
PV> which are now contained in our (Westerners) Old Testament, were then
PV> (and are still today) known as the Hebrew Scriptures, and were very
To an extent, true. However, compare the more original
documents to the later translations. Besides the normal
problems in any translation, you will note many obvious
mis-translations, additions and deletions from the older
texts.
... If you understand the bible, how can you believe in it?
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From: Dan Ceppa
To: Greg Gentry
Sub: Re: Not True Christian(tm
Date: 06 Jan 94 07:53:00
--------
EID:a4df 1c263ea0
MSGID: 1:350/401 86242DA6
-> Greg Gentry got back to Dan Ceppa Re: Re: Not True Christian(tm
DC> still got a lot of people killed in Korea, et al. It's
DC> getting people killed over there.
GG> Yeah, but Hitler was going to stop after he got France too. And
GG> after he annexed France it was an internal matter, wasn't it?
That was the Sudaten land, then Czeckoslovakia. Neville, et al,
allowed that to happen, as they didn't want to get involved.
However, that was definitely an external problem, though
Hitler tried and succeded in convincing the Allies that it
was internal.
GG> better at keeping fed than others. "Sir, give me that food," "Why?"
GG> BANG... Soldier takes food. Hunger makes people desperate,
There was a cartoon I saw recently, by Oliphant, if I
remeber right... It depicted a Somali kid accepting the
food from a soldier, then blowing the soldier away.
GG> to be better than Bosnians? How many Bosnians have to die to equal
GG> one American? Is it because it doesn't affect us? It certainly
I'm not just talking about American lives, but all on
the Peace Keeping force. They are in a no-win situation,
caught between the rival factions, being shot at by
each side. Not a pleasant situation to be in.
GG> does. In this economically interconnected world, when one country
GG> falls, by necessity all nations are hurt. It doesn't affect us?
Falls, to who? Right now, I'd be more worried about who
may be taking over power in the USSR, errr, Russia, or
whatever they call it now. They have the nuclear capabitity
and have a candidate that wants to exercise that power.
... ERROR in Reality.SYS Re_Boot the Universe (Y/N)?
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
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--------
From: Dan Ceppa
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: That Heat
Date: 06 Jan 94 08:20:00
--------
EID:9166 1c264280
MSGID: 1:350/401 86242DA7
-> Marty Leipzig got back to Dan Ceppa Re: That Heat
ML> Again? Let's see if I can conjur up the "One True Expert".
DC> Hmmmmm, who might that be?
ML> If you missed R. Fargher's repost of my original bit of
ML> creationist demolishing, let me know. I'll repost the goofy
ML> thing. It's a hoot, if I do say so my own self.
I'm sure I did. Checked my saved files and nothing
there on it.. The mail has been real sporatic here
lately. No Echoes yesterday, only small packets today.
If you could repost, that would be great. Thanks
for the effort!
... Only the educated are free -- Epictetus
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- WM v3.10/92-0416
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--------
From: Jesse C. Jones
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Discipleship
Date: 09 Jan 94 20:11:00
--------
EID:1087 0472e090
PID: BWRA 3.00 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:135/71.0 2d30b2f7
-=> Quoting Tyler A. Wunder to Jesse C. Jones <=-
TAW> G'day Jesse:
Hi, Tyler.
TAW> Jesse, if you feel that all that is good comes from God (All A is
TAW> B), then you certainly must believe that something cannot be good
TAW> unless it is God's work. If all that is good comes from God, then
TAW> there is nothing good that does not come from God. If the universal
TAW> affirmative (All good is God's work) is true, then the particular
TAW> negative (Some good is not God's work) and the universal negative (No
TAW> good is God's work) are both false. To say that "All that is good
TAW> comes from God" and then to say that anything that is not God's work
TAW> is not necessarily not-good is contradictory.
Well, I think that is what I was trying to say:
JCJ> _IF_ it is ethical, it _is_ God's work. So an otherwise
JCJ> ethical act is not excluded from being ethical because it is disconnecte
d
JCJ> from God. If it were ethical, it would be from God.
TAW> In your mind, yes. Which is why you are of the opinion that
TAW> something that is not God's work is not ethical.
I understand why you say that, and maybe I'm just out of practice at
playing with this syllogisms (I _am_ getting old, after all), but to me
the
emphasis is wrong. I suppose you could say that "something that is not
God's
work is not ethical" follows from "all good comes from God," but it implies,
I
think, that something can therefore be not ethical _because_ it does not
come
from God, and that goes in the wrong direction, I think. We do not determine
whether something is good by first determining whether it comes from God.
We
determine if it is good, and if it is, then it necessarily comes from God.
TAW> when atheists do ethical things, they are doing
TAW> God's work.
Yes!
TAW> although now I'll ask you to demonstrate it. We know what your position
TAW> is based upon your
TAW> initial assertion, but you have yet to validate your assertion.
A belief in divine Providence is a matter of faith, and not of human
reasoning.
JCJ> you've stated it. To say that all _good_ things are God's work certainl
y
JCJ> does not say that _no_ _evil_ things are God's work (although I do
not
JCJ> believe evil is God's work; I am only pointing out what I think is
the
JCJ> fallacy of your logic here).
TAW> If you are also of the
TAW> position (as you no doubt are) that All God's work is good, then you
TAW> are of the position that None of God's work is non-good. As well,
TAW> this universal negative converts simply to Nothing non-good is God's
TAW> work.
I don't follow you. A (good) is the opposite of B (non-good, or possibly
evil). All A is C (God's work). It does not follow, does it, that no B
is C?
Some Christians would define Providence to mean that _all_ things come
from God, including both good and evil. I don't necessarily agree, but
I don'
t
see how the syllogism above precludes that belief.
TAW>> or "No thing that is not God's work is good and ethical". Explain
the
TAW>> differences to me.
JCJ> The latter is an absurdity. The "thing" is not "not good and
JCJ> ethical" _because_ it is not from God.
TAW>> In other words, you are of the opinion that without a
TAW>> god, no one could have a capacity for ethical behaviour? Remember,
TAW>> I'm just clarifying, not putting words in your mouth :)
JCJ> I have trouble answering the question, because I cannot fathom
a
JCJ> world without God.
TAW> That's an excuse, and not a justification. Argument from
TAW> incredulity (I can't imagine it any other way) is not a valid
TAW> argument.
I don't mean it as incredulity. I mean only that God is so central to my
life and thought that I have forgotten how to think about a world in which
God
does not exist. Pardon my medical ignorance in looking for an analogy,
but ho
w
would a doctor begin to analyze a world in which life did not need sustenance.
How would a scientist deal with a world without atoms, or gravity? I'm
not
saying it can't be done, but I'm just not up to the task.
JCJ> I would be happy to. I posted a Lilly Foundation study a few
month
s
JCJ> ago which indicated that active churchgoers gave more of their salaries
JCJ> to charities than do non-churchgoers.
TAW> I missed it. Post it again.
I'll try to find it again. It was reported in Christian Century earlier
this year.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12
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--------
From: Marilyn Burge
To: Stephen Lochmiller
Sub: FACT VS. FAITH
Date: 08 Jan 94 10:10:16
--------
EID:3f5a 1c285140
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 4008c53b
On (05 Jan 94) Stephen Lochmiller wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SL> Can I prove that God lives or that Jesus walked the earth. No.
SL> But I can tell you that in my heart, I do believe it just as
SL> much as I believe that Abraham Linconl lived also.
SL>
SL> Let me know what you think.
Your "proof" stinks.
Can I prove that the Easter Bunny lives, or that Santa walked the face
of the Earth? No. But I can tell you that in my heart, I do believe
it just as much as I believe that Abraham Lincoln lived also.
My statement is just as valid as yours.
To begin with, Jesus wrote nothing, so far as we can tell. While there
was a certain amount written ABOUT him that is more or less
contemporary to his alleged life, there is MUCH more that has been
written about the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause. Abraham Lincoln wrote
things in his own hand that are still in existence. Jesus wrote
nothing in his own hand, so far as we can tell. In fact, there is good
reason to think that he could not write, and it is not at all unlikely
that he also could not read. The only truly contemporary accounts we
have of his alleged existence were oral, and not written down for a
generation after his passing. We all know what happens to
word-of-mouth accounts of ANYTHING, let alone of a person who is
alleged to have been bigger than life. We have drawings, etchings, and
newspaper accounts of Lincoln that are authentic and can be proved
authentic by various dating techniques. We have absolutely no
drawings, etchings, or newspaper accounts of Jesus that are authentic
and can be proved authentic by various dating techniques. The oldest
drawings of Jesus were made a millenium after his passing.
Don't construe what I am saying as an assertion that Jesus did not
exist. I think that there was a man called Jesus, but I also think
that your argument needs work. It will convince no intelligent human
being on the face of the Earth. It is poorly thought-out, and easily
shot full of holes, as I have adequately demonstrated. Try again.
... I remember when penny candy was 1 cent.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Jeff Jones
Sub: Question for the Better Educated
Date: 08 Jan 94 10:18:18
--------
EID:c028 1c285240
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 f349ff92
REPLY: 1:202/102 2d2bbf59
On (05 Jan 94) Jeff Jones wrote to Marilyn Burge...
JJ> *** Quoting Marilyn Burge to All ***
JJ>
JJ> MB> theology. He
JJ> MB> said that the virgin birth was a physical possibility and cited
JJ> MB> some law
JJ> MB> of physics to "show" how it was possible. Is there somebody in
JJ> MB> this
JJ> MB> conference who would like to hazard a guess which physical law he
JJ> MB> invoked to justify his absurdity? I've been wracking my brain
JJ>
JJ> The only thing I can think of is perhaps Mary was a hermaphrodite.
Nope. It was a physical law such as the Second Law of Thermodynamics
or the like. The guy was a physicist who had held a chair in
theoretical physics at either Oxford or Cambridge.
... You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Gary Glunz
Sub: Maybe You Can Tell Me
Date: 08 Jan 94 10:50:10
--------
EID:c428 1c285640
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 e2af6ca9
REPLY: 1:100/4 862148CD
On (05 Jan 94) Gary Glunz wrote to David Worrell...
GG> DW> spit in his face on Judgement Day. I can't stand bullies...
GG>
GG> LO> We'll see. (grin)
GG>
GG> DW> Ohhhh, I'm scared. There _is_ a thunderstorm outside...
GG>
GG> Ain't it funny... the good ol' religionoid scare tactic: "God loves
GG> you so join my religion!" "Well... I don't know..." "...Well join
GG> my religion or you'll burn forever!"
GG>
GG> Personally, I can't understand how they expect people to love
GG> their big cosmic billybob who goes around like the roughest toughest
GG> swingin' dick in the whole damn valley!
The fact that the Bible also says "God is Love" barely gets a nod and
wave of the hand from these same cretins. Go figure.
... "If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color."
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Len Ovens
Sub: help for Jesse?
Date: 08 Jan 94 12:46:16
--------
EID:bb7c 1c2865c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 4e040b17
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d1e8c6c
On (26 Dec 93) Len Ovens wrote to Robert Curry...
LO> Yes you've got it, Words again. You, are the one who (the way I see
LO> it), asked, does Ciya exist. you did not say, I don't think Yahweh
LO> exists. Gota say what ya mean! I assume, (in other words correct me
LO> if I'm wrong) that by Yahweh, you mean the creator of the universe.
LO> There are two things I can say, the first is , (you've heard this)
LO> take something that crosses the laws of nature, like life, now you
LO> give me a better explaination. The other thing I can say, is why are
LO> you and many others so interested in speeping God and His proof under
LO> the carpet? Other beliefs, you can talk about with out emotion, not
LO> God.
Just a couple of quick questions.
1. Precisely what do you mean by "crosses the laws of nature?" and
2. How does life fit the definitino of having "cross(ed) the laws of
nature?"
Please allow me the luxury of a third question:
3. Why do you assume that nonbelievers are speeping [sic] God and His
proof under the carpet?
Perhaps more intelligent discourse can occur if you answer these three
questions.
... Stupidity is NOT a handicap. PARK ELSEWHERE!
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 08 Jan 94 12:53:43
--------
EID:a68f 1c2866a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 d03beaf7
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d1e9558
On (26 Dec 93) Len Ovens wrote to Questor Thews...
LO>
LO> Read some of my last few messages, although I am probably going to get
LO> better at saying it as I go. My answer remains the same, I can find
no
LO> other satisfactory explaination for why there is life of any form.
The "I can't see any other explanation" argument is known as argument
from ignorance. It is generally thought to show ignorance, not God.
When I was 5 years old, I could not think of any other explanation for
a cake rising in the oven except "magic," either, but that was
ignorance, and not an accurate explanation of how it occurred. Give up
the argument from ignorance and get an education about how life is
REALLY formed and propagated. There are scientists on this echo who
would be more than happy to educate you in the finer points of the
topic, but they often can be cruel. Books are more impersonal. They
don't laugh at stupidity.
... David Duke: Sheet for brains.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel!
Date: 08 Jan 94 12:57:18
--------
EID:a68f 1c286720
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 633a4855
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d2c10c2
On (06 Jan 94) Len Ovens wrote to Martin Goldberg...
LO> On 12-23-93 Martin Goldberg wrote to Len Ovens...
LO>
LO> MG> No faith required? Then you must have some solid evidence
LO> MG> for god's existance. Be the first on your block to provide
LO> MG> evidence for god. Either that, or admit that you area liar.
LO>
LO> ere we go again..... I have yet to here of a better explaination for,
LO> life, the origin of life, than that of a creator. You can use any name
LO> you want, I use God because thats how I know him.
Well, Len, you've just talked down to one of the people who knows the
answer to your unanswerable questions to which you assign "God" as the
answer. He's an immunologist, and understands life at the most
elementary (cellular) level very well. I think you are about to get
one of those free lessons that I mentioned in the message preceding
this one. Hang onto your chair, 'cause he's likely to blow you and
your condescension away.
... "If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease." -- Clark Adams
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Who does what
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:06:16
--------
EID:6951 1c2868c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 8661bc93
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d2b8521
On (05 Jan 94) Jesse C. Jones wrote to Marty Leipzig...
JC> year. I would not consider lecturing on legal matters to be service
JC> so much as it is marketing. I did take part in a group presentation
Not necessarily true. It was from listening to a lecture that was
sponsored by ARC (the Association for Retarded Citizens) that I was
able to plan my own estate and write my own will. Although my attorney
oversaw my efforts, a will that would have cost thousands of dollars
ended up costing me only $400 to draft and sign. Leaving your estate
to somebody who is mentally handicapped is a VERY complex thing for the
average citizen to do, and do right. Smith saved us a bundle by
presenting his expertise to that group of parents of handicapped people
that day.
ARC also provided legal services to a mentally handicpped lady who was
being denied the right to move away from home. She was well past the
age of majority, but her mother thought that she could not make it out
in the world without Mommy doing certain things for her. Mary sued her
for the right to move out and won. She is now living in a group home
and on good terms with her mother, who is enjoying her new-found
freedom.
While the amount of pro bono work you do is laudable, I am bothered by
the fact that you don't think educating others to be more
self-sufficient in legal matters is a worthwhile endeavor, and also by
the fact that all the pro bono work you do seems to be
church-connected. There are a great many people in this world that
will not go to a church-related organization when they need help. In a
sense your focus shows you to be rather parochial, and much too
inclined to "preach to the choir." I would have thought Matthew 5:16
would have influenced you to broaden your horizons a bit when donating
your time and expertise.
... Neither rain nor snow nor l?ne noi$e.. .%(%^($%..
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Scott Charles
To: Stephen Lochmiller
Sub: ADAM...
Date: 08 Jan 94 09:18:34
--------
EID:009e 1c284a40
my apology for not being more clear. in you message 29522 you are discussing
proof of God. you took a good deal of trouble to explain that history not
wit
hin our immediate senses is hearsay. and i agree; more than that even,
i beli
eve history is fiction: it is not happening now, therefore it is not real.
but
we act on our belief in history as if it were real. we use history to help
u
s make decisions, as a guide. now i think that fiction serves the same
purpos
e: to help guide us in making decisions. so for me fiction and history
are di
vided by a very fine line.
in any event, my point to you is this: PROVE THE MESSAGE OF CHRIST. do
not g
et caught up in incidents or facts. PROVE THE INTENT OF THE GOSPEL. the
fact
s will take care of themselves.
thank you for taking the time to reply to me.
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Scott Charles
To: Styx Allum
Sub: WE GOT US A NEW ONE!
Date: 08 Jan 94 10:59:16
--------
EID:0118 1c285760
as the human torch says: flame on!
now, about that spelling...
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Scott Charles
To: Styx Allum
Sub: WAIT A MINUTE...
Date: 08 Jan 94 11:01:59
--------
EID:2f29 1c285820
butt wait ...!
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Scott Charles
To: All
Sub: OXYMORON
Date: 08 Jan 94 11:12:40
--------
EID:886b 1c285980
help me out here: what does the word homophobic mean? i think homo refers
to
mankind. i think phobic refers to a fear of something. so does homophobic
m
ean fear of mankind? let me know what you think.
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Stephen Lochmiller
To: Scott Charles
Sub: ADAM...
Date: 08 Jan 94 22:43:28
--------
EID:9b7b 1c28b560
I do try to prove the gospel of Christ by trying (not always successfully,
but
trying) to live a life patterned after the teachings said to be that of
Chris
t's.
Thanks for your comments.
Steve L.
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Scott Charles
To: Stephen Lochmiller
Sub: ADAM...
Date: 09 Jan 94 02:10:50
--------
EID:009e 1c291140
thank you.
--- TMail v1.31.5
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: David Rice
Sub: Atheists do good
Date: 08 Jan 94 21:02:31
--------
EID:6453 1c28a840
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 45c5e08a
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2dc6c6
On (07 Jan 94) David Rice wrote to Jonny Vee...
DR> In Santa Ana where we pass out blankets in winter, the city
DR> is trying to make us stop. The "reason" is because it somehow
DR> "encourages 'street-people' to live on the street." I am
DR> singularly unimpressed with such "thinking" ability.
Let me see if I've got this straight. If you pass out blankets in the
wintertime, it will encourage people to move out of their warm
apartments and houses and into the streets, just so they can get a free
blanket.
HoooKAY! And these guys were elected by the majority. Right? That's
frightening!
... A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Joe Savelli
To: All
Sub: Christian Coalition is growing...
Date: 08 Jan 94 10:35:18
--------
EID:ad70 1c285460
MSGID: 1:133/208.0 2d2ed2b6
Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000. In 1993 900,000 and still
gro
wing. We are going to invade all political and educational institutions,
take
them back from the liberal/socialist invaders.
The Church won't sit back and permit unbelievers to run the world. Pope
John P
aul and Ronald Reagan brought an athiest regime to its knees, The Soviet
Union
. And we will not stop there... Make no mistake we have only begun to fight
th
ose who have decided to oppose us. So be sure of your opposition, and hope
tha
t it can save you....
Scared Good....
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: David Rice
Sub: Assault on Waco, Missing #5
Date: 09 Jan 94 14:38:39
--------
EID:2270 1c2974c0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 b0fa1eb4
On (08 Jan 94) David Rice wrote to Marilyn Burge...
DR>
DR> MB> Number 5 was missing. Can you post it, or will I find
DR> MB> that it is all there and you simply can't count when I
DR> MB> get down to reading the piece?
DR>
DR> Oops! I mailed it, honest. I did not keep the pieces--- just
DR> the whole thing: I have no way of knowing which piece number
DR> five was. I can upload it to the BBS of your choice.
DR>
DR> I hate computers.
I can be found at 1:105/40.3.
... Stupidity is NOT a handicap. PARK ELSEWHERE!
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Morality
Date: 09 Jan 94 14:39:11
--------
EID:ed65 1c2974e0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 76d9c8c6
On (08 Jan 94) Jesse C. Jones wrote to Marilyn Burge...
JC> I don't want to be like Curry and keep persisting with a question
JC> you decline to answer, so I'll ask this only this one more time: apart
JC> from the benefit or harm to "the world" as framed in your statement
of
JC> morality, do you think abstractions -- such as truth -- can themselves
JC> be ethical goals, or are they only tools?
Concepts such as "truth" and "justice" for sure exist. But I think
that there is a real danger in thinking that we know what they are. To
me, they are something one seeks, but never assumes one has found. The
minute you think you have a lock on the big questions, you're probably
the farthest off-base. This is one of the main reasons why fundies
drive me a little bit crazy. They don't understand where I'm coming
from, and I understand where they are coming from only too well. They
have a lock on Truth where I, on the other hand, no matter how
dearly held a conviction may be, am aware that there is always the
possibility that the next piece of the puzzle will knock my conviction
regarding this one topic into a cocked hat. Uncertainty seems to be
something that fundies cannot deal with. The bigger the question, the
less willing they are to say "I don't know." They know from whence the
universe came and everything in it, so there is no reason to seek
answers or admit they were wrong. They've got a lock on all of it.
Makes things simple, but, unfortunately, just a bit too simple for my
taste.
... Genitals are people of non-Jewish origin.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: CIRCULAR...
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:19:15
--------
EID:4d37 1c296a60
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 7d52f50a
REPLY: 1:374/1 2d2a9414
On (05 Jan 94) John Musselwhite wrote to Steve Bedard...
JM> If John, Jesus and many others believed the end of the world
JM> was going to happen in their lifetimes, why didn't it? John
JM> uses "...it is the last hour", and Jesus said his would be the
JM> last generation. It didn't happen, Steve... The anti-christ is
JM> irrelevant. Their prophecies did not come to pass so why should
JM> they be believed?
John, I was mistaken about the Canadian price of "The Five Gospels."
It's actually $37.95 Canadian, not $37.50.
That said, I wouldn't expect Steve Bedard to subscribe to the views
expressed in TFG, but according to that book, Jesus never said those
words; they were said by a couple of the gospellers and put into the
mouth of Jesus by them. I think that the fundamentalists would have a
hard time dealing with just how few of the words that are attributed to
Jesus by the publishers who print red-letter editions of the Bible
were, in all probability, actually said by Jesus.
Whoever wrote the Introduction in TFG says that a couple of committee
members on the Jesus Seminar got relieved of their posts at
conservative colleges because of the work they did on the project.
While this doesn't surprise me, it does distress me to hear about
so-called institutions of "higher learning" that are so damned
determined to forbid any REAL intellectual inquiry that has the
potential to discredit any of their dearly-held dogma, when, in fact,
dogma is not what Christianity is about anyway, if they only knew it.
"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free," unless,
of course, the truth differs from what we hold to be immutible truth.
Yeah, riiiiiiiight.
... Two most common elements in the universe: Hydrogen & Stupidity.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: CHRISTMAS CARD
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:28:30
--------
EID:c212 1c296b80
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 e372583f
REPLY: 1:374/1 2d2a9b58
On (05 Jan 94) Steve Quarrella wrote to Marilyn Burge...
SQ>
SQ> I should have done the ceremony m'self (Can one do that?). "Do
SQ> you, Steve, take Suzy" "Why yes, I do"
SQ> "OK, you're hitched. May Dopefish
SQ> not pee in your wheaties."
You are making this much more complicated than it need be. A lot of
couples repeat vows that they have written, with the person officiating
doing little more than standing there and signing papers later. So
long as the words that each says show clear intent to spend the rest of
your life with the other person, there is no reason in the world why
the words have to fit a certain pattern. I mean, it isn't like the
priest who had to notify a bunch of distraught couples that they
young'uns weren't really baptized because he "cleaned up the language
that he uttered" when he sprinkled them so that it wouldn't be so
sexist, only to find out later that he hadn't gotten the job done by
saying "I baptize you in the name of the Creator, the Messiah, and the
Holy Spirit," instead of the more traditional "Father, Son, and Holy
Ghost." The County Court House isn't nearly as much of a stickler
about language as the Vatican is. 8-)
... The death of dogma is the birth of reality.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: NUN BETTER
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:35:56
--------
EID:91ef 1c296c60
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 715f033a
REPLY: 1:374/1 2d2ac9c0
On (05 Jan 94) Steve Quarrella wrote to Styx Allum...
SQ> 31 54 75 88 1000 3615/50
SQ> Hwaet, Styx!
SQ>
SQ> 1 Jan 94, dixit Styx Allum ad Starwyn:
SQ>
SQ> SA> Okay, let's get this year off to a good start with a bad joke:
SQ> SA> Four nuns died in a car crash.
SQ>
SQ> I'll call and raise your joke:
SQ>
SQ> "Sorry, sister...that was the SAHARA PIPELINE that hundreds of men
SQ> laid in just a few weeks."
My turn.
Three nuns were standing in line for confession. The first one went
into the little phone booth and said "Father forgive me for I have
sinned. I saw what a man has."
The priest said "Wash your eyes with holy water and say ten Hail
Marys."
The second one entered the little booth and said "Father forgive me for
I have sinned. I've touched what a man has."
The priest said "Wash your hands with holy water and say twenty Hail
Marys."
The third one entered the little booth and said "Father forgive me for
I have sinned. I've enjoyed what a man has."
The priest said "Douche with holy water and say fifty Hail Marys."
While the three nuns were doing their penance, a fourth nun showed up
and said "move over, I gotta gargle."
... Man cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: The meek shall inherit?
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:49:09
--------
EID:9600 1c296e20
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 7c59ac9f
REPLY: 1:271/250.9@fidonet 39d060d0
On (06 Jan 94) Joshua Lee wrote to Jesse C. Jones...
JL> On Dec 28 07:57, Jesse C. Jones of 1:135/71 wrote:
JL>
JL> JC>> You see, this is how you heathens in this conference
JL> JC>> define a "reasonable Christian" -- one that agrees with
JL>
JL> MB>> of what makes him what he is: the most compassionate,
JL> MB>> understanding, forgiving, loving, and just plain nice
JL> MB>> person I've ever had the privilege of knowing.
JL>
JL> JCJ> This indicates to me that you are secure
JL> JCJ> enough in your own beliefs that you do not need
JL> JCJ> to attack and despise those who disagree with you.
JL>
JL> I suspect she is really commenting, in a justifyably angry way, how
JL> your claim to the atheists that they do less good things on the
JL> avarage than others is insulting.
No, I wasn't angry at his assumptions. I simply wanted to give him
something to think about the next time he chooses to paint all
nonbelievers with the same broad brush. There are those of us who
aren't too shallow to realize that everything about a person goes into
making them what they are, and that when we try to change anything
about them, we run the risk of tampering with the chemistry that makes
them who they are to such an extent that we will no longer like what we
ourselves have created. I regard my fundy friend as being about as
close to perfection as one can reasonably expect to get. If being a
fundy has contributed to that (and I think it has), then why would I
want to mess with it?
If my fund told me that he had given up religion, I would cry. I would
be VERY afraid for him. His religion is a large part of who he is.
He's never asked me to give up my atheism, why should I ask him to give
up the core of his existence?
... Yeah, but what's the speed of DARK?
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: Lightbulbs & X-tians
Date: 09 Jan 94 14:11:10
--------
EID:399d 1c297160
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 b49f5f31
REPLY: 1:261/1093.0 2d2f38bc
On (08 Jan 94) Chuck Dubman wrote to Gary Glunz...
CD> And speaking of the good book, I'm interested in primarily the juicy
CD> parts. If it's not too much trouble, would someone here mind terribly
CD> compiling an index of the good parts to save time searching?
Purchase a copy of "The X-Rated Bible," and you've got a good start,
neatly bound and ready for your perusal.
... Sacrilege: Anything damaging to things sacred, especially truth.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: David Rice
Sub: Jesus makes a mistake
Date: 09 Jan 94 14:13:01
--------
EID:0a4c 1c2971a0
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 de488f75
REPLY: 1:124/9005.0 2d2f630e
On (08 Jan 94) David Rice wrote to All...
DR> I found this is alt.atheist
DR> ---------------------------
DR>
DR> In the Winter 1994 issue of the "Skeptical Inquirer", there's an
DR> article entitled "Global Fortune-Telling And Bible Prophecy",
DR> which had a reference I didn't know about, and have never seen
DR> discussed here.
DR>
DR> "In the Bible we find a prophecy of the precise and falsifiable
DR> sort, where Jesus predicts that his return (the so-called Second
DR> Coming) would occur within the lifetime of at least some of his
DR> contemporaries. The conditions for its fulfillment were stated
DR> clearly: that his return would be seen and acknowledged by the
DR> whole world and that it would happen before that generation passed
DR> away (Mark 13:14-30). This clearly did not happen and must count
DR> as a precise prophecy that was falsified by the passage of time."
What do you MEAN you've never seen it discussed here? We've been
nailing Steve Bedard with it for close to a month now, and he attempts
to wriggle out of it by concentrating on some phrase in the passage
that deals with the anti-Christ, totally ignoring the part about Christ
saying he would return during the lifetime of those who were hearing
his words.
Hal Lindsey is the guy who wrote several books claiming that life got
here from other planets, if I'm not mistaken. A real credible guy.
... Baroque: When you are out of Monet.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Marilyn Burge
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Who does what
Date: 09 Jan 94 14:25:36
--------
EID:b4a2 1c297320
MSGID: 1:105/40.3 29279636
On (08 Jan 94) Marty Leipzig wrote to Jesse C. Jones...
ML> Gee. I'm impressed.
ML>
ML> I mean, when do you find the time to chase ambulances?
Now, see! My fundy friend would find that to be hilarious. Jesse will
think it's a cheap shot. I gave my fundy friend a floppy disk full of
lawyer jokes. He enjoys them. He has a nearly unlimited ability to
laugh at himself.
... Good thing about fundies: They're biodegradable.
--- PPoint 1.76
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Judaism
Date: 08 Jan 94 16:31:00
--------
EID:0d19 1c2883e0
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d42
JL>The Talmud *does* rely on the Torah. It's a commentary of the
JL>Mishnah, a
JL>writing down of a collection of orally transmitted interpretations of
JL>the
JL>teachings of the Torah. These were directly from the accadamies
JL>re-established by Ezra in order to continue determining Halakhic
JL>rulings, as
JL>the judges have ever since Moses established their authority as
JL>law-givers
JL>and law-interpreters in the Torah itself.
Is not the Talmud supposed to be the oral law that was given to Moses at
the same time as the written law of the Torah? Although there is a
relationship between the Torah and the Talmud it is more of a list of ways
te avoid punishment for acts that the Torah forbids such as murder,
bestiality and blasphemy. It is a way around the Torah rather than a
support for it.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Prepare the way of the Lord
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Messiah
Date: 08 Jan 94 16:36:01
--------
EID:85d0 1c288480
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d43
JL> SB> I asked you a question a while back which you
JL> SB> have not answered.
JL>I assume it was one that you ask of all Jews, so I'll put in my two
JL>cents
JL>worth.
I would appreciate it.
JL> SB> I asked if you had read the entire New Testament.
JL>I have a copy, and I have read most of Mathew, parts of the other
JL>gospels,
JL>and several of the Epistles, because I was curious as to what my
JL>Christian
JL>neighbors believed in.
JL> SB>I also asked for the reasons
JL> SB> why you reject Jesus as the Messiah.
JL>The Paulinian Christian "Son of God, Savior" does not match the job
JL>description. We are not living in a world redeemed in the Jewish
JL>sense.
We are currently living in an age of personal redemption. The worldwide
redemption will take place with Christ's second coming. Read Revelation
chapters 21 and 22 and tell me if that is more in line with the
redemption you would expect.
JL>I suspect the book "The Rabbi talks to Jesus", by Jacob Neusner, is a
JL>good
JL>one on this subject. I enjoyed the book Rabbi Neusner co-wrote with
JL>the
JL>Christian priest Andrew Greeley, "The Bible and Us", which I strongly
JL>reccomend for both Jews and Christians. It's probably available in
JL>most
JL>libraries as it was a recent best-seller. Perhaps this will give you
JL>better
JL>insight as to how Jews understand the Bible.
I will look for this book.
BTW, welcome back.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž In Jesus' name we shall be strong
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Buddhism
Date: 08 Jan 94 16:50:02
--------
EID:c2e8 1c288640
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d44
JL> SB> states, "Whatever spirits have come together here, either
JL> SB> belonging to the earth or living in the air, let
JL> SB> us worship the perfect (tathagata) Buddha,
JL> SB> revered by gods and men; may there be salvation." This
JL> SB> sounds somewhat theistic to me.
JL>Note "revered by Gods and men", gods in the Buddhist world-view are
JL>merely
JL>advanced beings who live on a different world of existance, that
JL>eventually
JL>run out of their Karmic seed-house points and return to a more lowly
JL>plain.
JL>The only way of escaping from the cycle of course is to become
JL>"enlightened",
JL>which only men can do. Gods in this view learn from Buddhas how to be
JL>enlightened, which can help them become enlightened in a future
JL>man-life.
What confuses me is why would they worship the Buddha if he is only a
man?How do they benefit from this worship?
JL>Incidentally, since this is from the Theravadan canon, and the lower
JL>ones are
JL>from the Great-Vehicle canon, you are Buddhist belief systems.
You seem to have missed a word or two in this sentence. What are you
trying to say?
JL> SB> leads the class in a "prayer to Manjursi-for Manjursi is
JL> SB> the great Bodhisattva of Wisdom who would
JL> SB> guide...[them]...to a sound and deep
JL> SB> understanding of the Dharma through the lesson."
JL>
JL>A Bodhisattva is a Buddha, not a God, an eternally existant former
JL>man who is
JL>available for help, sort of like Jesus and Catholic Saints.
I was awarew that a Bodhisattva was a Buddhist, but your comparison with
Catholic Saints helps me to understand. If they (and Catholics) are
praying to men for help, they would seem to be treating them almost like
gods.
JL> SB> ther are the five Dhyani Buddhas who are
JL> SB> regarded as "the five primordial gods
JL>Some Buddhisms are theistic in all but name, the more philosophical
JL>and
JL>meditation-centered schools are often not.
JL>Unlike Christianity, Buddhism is very diverse, perhaps the most
JL>diverse
JL>religion, with many dogmas and sets of scriptures, since they do not
JL>believe
JL>that there is only one path. Also, Buddhism is widespread through
JL>many
JL>different cultures who often syncretize it with their prior belief
JL>systems,
JL>which is not frowned upon in Buddhism as much as it formally is in
JL>Christianity.
I have noticed that the belief systems of Buddhists are much more diverse
than those of other religons. It makes it quite a bit more difficult to
get an understanding of Buddhism.
JL>Where did you get some of those translations by the way? Some of them
JL>look
JL>rather inaccurate, the type of thing propogated by Christian
JL>missionaries.
I figured someone would think I got this information from a Christian
source. Actually I got it from a book by Dr. Richard A. Gard who is a
lecturer in Buddhist Studies at Yale University.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God the Almighty
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Re: Fact Vs. Faith
Date: 08 Jan 94 16:52:03
--------
EID:f3d2 1c288680
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d45
JL>HP>>You can't prove a negative.
JL> SB> Are there any human beings currently living on
JL> SB> the surface of the moon?
JL>No.
JL> SB> Is it possible to prove there are none?
JL>Oye vay... So therefore we should worship invisable men on the moon?
That is not what I am saying at all. In fact it has nothing to do with
God. I am trying to show that it is possible to prove a negative.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Salvation and glory and power belong to our God
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Evidence
Date: 08 Jan 94 16:56:04
--------
EID:5224 1c288700
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d46
JL>You are a "literalist", aren't you? Let me know *why* you think the
JL>earth is
JL>round, since it contradicts conservative theology throughout history.
JL>As I
JL>said in an earlier message....
JL>Burning people at the stake for claiming that the sun does not
JL>revolve around
JL>the earth has been out of style for the last 400 years or so.
JL>Gallileo for
JL>instance got off with a simple recanting.
JL>'For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's,
JL>And he hath set the world upon them.'
JL>1st Samuel 2:8.
JL>There are simular passages in several of the "Creation Psalms" and
JL>also in
JL>the prophetic cosmologies. The Bible is consistant on it's view of a
JL>flat,
JL>non-rotating earth supported on pillars, that even topple in some
JL>prophet's
JL>apocolyptic earthquake visions......
I don't believe that the purpose of those passages was to provide
scientific descriptions for the shape of the earth. They are just figures
of speech.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Joshua Lee
Sub: Biblical Scholarship
Date: 08 Jan 94 16:57:05
--------
EID:f28d 1c288720
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d47
JL>However, some of the most radical stuff that comes out of the
JL>seminary is
JL>*nearly* that bad. I suppose he's using the fact that there is bad
JL>stuff out
JL>there in some liberal seminaries to discredit all of the scholarship
JL>done by
JL>reputable scholars. Oh well...
That is not my purpose at all. I just relayed an article I read that I
thought some here would find interesting.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž The heavens are telling the glory of the God
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Kelsey Bjarnason
Sub: Bible
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:03:06
--------
EID:d841 1c288860
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d48
KB>SB>DS>Amazing. A christian article in a christian periodical about
KB>SB>DS>christian
KB>SB>DS>historical events.
KB>SB>Actually it did not appear in a Christian periodical. It was in
KB>the local
KB>SB>newspaper.
KB> Ooh, even better. After all, we all know that what you see in the
KB> newspaper must be true, right?
Although believing everything you read is stupid, assuming it all lies is
just as bad.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Well Folks....
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:09:07
--------
EID:864a 1c288920
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d49
JS>Steve, don't you think that anyone has the right to defend
JS>himself/herself. I
JS>did not fight the man because I hated him. I fought him because he
JS>was trying
JS>to harm me. Notice that I didn't turn him in to the MP's. He would
JS>have ended
JS>up in the stockade for 20 years if I had done that. I felt at the
JS>time that a
JS>person should always show mercy in victory. Even though at the time I
JS>was NOT
JS>a Christian.
I am not saying that you should not have defended yourself. The problem
I
have is that your messages seem to be equating Christianity with the
hatred of homosexuals. That may not be what you mean but that is how it
comes across. Remember, sin is sin in God's eyes, whether it is
homosexuality or gossip. We should be spending our time preaching the
love of Christ.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: Bible
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:12:08
--------
EID:3807 1c288980
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d4a
JM>Shanks'
JM>"Biblical Archaeology Review" will have them months before they ever
JM>hit the
JM>papers...
How much does it cost for a subscription?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Re: Dss
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:16:09
--------
EID:b792 1c288a00
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d4b
JM> SB> Could you please post that address? How expensive is not cheap?
JM> Biblical Archaeology Society
JM> 3000 Connecticut Ave. N.W., Suite 300
JM> Washington, D.C. 20008
Thanks for the information. I recently saw a book in the store by a guy
named Eisenman which contained translations of some of the scrolls. Is
this book any good?
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž You're the solid rock on which I stand
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: The End
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:35:10
--------
EID:f1e8 1c288c60
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d4c
JM> SB> "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard
JM>that the
JM> SB> antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This
JM>is
JM> SB> how we know it is the last hour." 1 John 2:18
JM> If John, Jesus and many others believed the end of the world
JM>was going
JM> to happen in their lifetimes, why didn't it? John uses
JM>"...it is the
JM> last hour", and Jesus said his would be the last generation.
JM>It didn't
JM> happen, Steve... The anti-christ is irrelevant. Their
JM>prophecies did
JM> not come to pass so why should they be believed?
There are many explanations I can give for Jesus' comment about "this
generation". I could say that the Greek word used is genea which does not
necessarily mean the same thing as our generation. Alternative meanings
could be an interval of time, an age or a course of life. My personal
interpretation is that He was referring to the destruction of the temple
which was destroyed in that generation. If check out Mark 13:1-2 you will
see that this conversation began with the temple. Jesus admits that only
the Father knows for sure when the end will be. As for John thinking the
end was near, it is near at least in God's reckoning of time which is
different thean ours.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž You're the solid rock on which I stand
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Steve Bedard
To: Dave Schultz
Sub: Good?
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:50:11
--------
EID:289d 1c288e40
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d4d
DS>Even the devils believe. Jesus even told Satan to get behind him
DS>and commanded him to do good (serve God).
Actually, Jesus was talking to Peter here and was calling Him satan
because he tried tempting Jesus into avoiding the crucifixion.
DS>I wouldn't say that exactly. John the Baptist knew it. He had the
DS>Holy
DS>Spirit before the crucifixion. Who would go out on a limb risking
DS>their
DS>neck and credibility by publicly announcing what he announced unless
DS>he had absolute knowledge of what he was talking about? The spirit of
DS>truth and revelation was already in existence.
Yes the Holy Spirit existed and had strengthened people as far back as Old
Testament times.
DS>In addition, weren't
DS>the disciples themselves with Jesus before the foundation of the
DS>world?
DS>Although they may have not remembered it consciously.
There is no evidence for this.
DS> SB> Here, Jesus claimed to have been aware before the world existed
DS>and
DS> SB> that He shared in the glory of the Father.
DS>There is a difference between a world that existed and a world that
DS>was created. How do you define world and which world do you refer
DS>to in either instance. Didn't Jesus also say that which he speaks
DS>is a metaphor meaning something entirely different?
Before the world existed it had not been created. Before the world had
been created, it did not exist. They mean the same thing.
DS>SB> "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!' Then Jesus told him,
DS> SB> 'Because you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen
DS>and
DS> SB> yet have believed.'" John 20:28-29
DS> SB> Here Jesus accepts being called God by Thomas.
DS>Not necessarily. It only proves that goodness has a voice also.
DS>There are three aspects to the conciousness of goodness. Each
DS>of those aspects can speak through the vessel, which in this
DS>case was Jesus. Here Thomas was speaking to the voice, not the
DS>vessel through whom the voice was coming. Jesus, the man, never
DS>accepted being called God by anyone. In fact, the very reason
DS>the crucifixion was necessary from day one was that the creature
DS>was led into believing that another human being was God. Jesus
DS>came to correct that impression. How tall do you walk, Steve.
DS>Is there anyone in your life that you consider more good, or
DS>even less good than yourself? Be honest... as I feel you are.
I am sure there people more and less good then myself although I am not
qualified to judge who is what. When did Jesus refuse to accept the title
of God?
DS>And let me leave you with this, for what it's worth: The Jews
DS>were absolutely justified under their laws and beliefs for
DS>not accepting Jesus as their Messiah. As far as their
DS>Messianic prophecies are concerned, the main prophecy that
DS>should have been fulfilled when Jesus was born never came to
DS>pass. Assuming this is true, upon what grounds or justifica-
DS>tion and upon what scriptures do you use to preach what is
DS>called the 'good news?' Further, if you were to write a
DS>banner headline for the 'good news' how would you word
DS>it, and how would you word the first paragraph of the story
DS>under it? Best wishes. -- Dave --
The prophesies did not say that everything would be done at once. They
should have seen that what He was doing was from God and that if He was
from God, He would not be lying about being the Messiah. John 3:16 would
be a good way of describing what the Good News is.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Jesus Christ is Lord!
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: David Worrell
Sub: Aids
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:54:12
--------
EID:b8aa 1c288ec0
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d4e
DW> SB> Have any of your friends ever done something you disliked? Did
DW>this
DW> SB> mean that you no longer liked that person?
DW>Yes, from time to time my friends do things I do not like. This does
DW>not mean we're no longer friends. However, if one of these friends
DW>committed an 'abomination' (i.e., murder), I would have to seriously
DW>reconsider the friendship.
But can you see it is possible to separate the feelings you hold for the
action and the feelings you hold for the person.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Steve Bedard
To: David Worrell
Sub: Good?
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:55:13
--------
EID:d58e 1c288ee0
MSGID: 1:247/133 050b1d4f
DW> SB> The confusion comes from the definition of "good". People can
DW>do good
DW> SB> as the world sees good without the Holy Spirit. However,
DW>people can
DW> SB> not do good as God sees good unless they do it in the power of
DW>the
DW> SB> Holy Spirit.
DW>Let me get this straight. If I, as a non-christian, save your life
DW>tomorrow, then I have performed an evil act in the eyes of God????
I did not say that. You did something good in the eyes of the world and
also in the eyes of God. But it is possible to do something good in the
eyes of God which is not good in the eyes of the world.
ž WinQwk 2.0b#1175 ž The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.
--- GEcho 1.00
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From: Dave Keeton
To: David Worrell
Sub: Re: Proof
Date: 09 Jan 94 10:44:26
--------
EID:01d6 1c295580
MSGID: 1:3406/27.0 2d306caa
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
-=> Quoting David Worrell to Dave Keeton <=-
DW> I am rather certain of his non-existance. There is _no_ evidence for
DW> His existence, therefore I do not waste my time "believing" in Him.
DW> If you can come up with some evidence, maybe I'll change my mind...
If I were to offer you with what I consider proof, you wouldn't
accept it anyway. To prove something existential in our realm
of the five senses, is impossible. When I refer to the bible in
any discussion, you have to understand that it (the bible) doesn't
argue or try to prove the exsistence of God.
DW> No, I don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution is a fact. I believe the
DW> Theory of evolution is at least a good approximation of what
DW> happened.
Well, which is it? a theory or a fact? It is most certainly not
a FACT, although as of the last few years, it has been taught
in public schools as fact. Anyone willing to have an open mind
and do a little research into the very fields that you like to
quote from for your evidence, will doubtless find that the
parameters for life to exsist on this planet leave little margin
for error, and how all of these things point to a Creator.
DW> Those of us who believe the Bible and are
DW>
DW> Morons? Primitives cowering in fear of an imaginary bully?
I am not cowering from anyone. My relationship with the Creator
is not based on fear, because he is not a guy with a big hammer
waiting to smack me when ever I make a amistake or fall out of
like. This is not the God that is revealed to use through Christ
Jesus. The God of Creation is a Loving God, full of compassion
and mercy. His desire for us is that we have fellowship with Him.
DK> convinced that God does exsist, are not always on the defensive.
DW>
DW> You should be. The burden of proof lies with you. I don't give a damn
DW> what you believe. If you wish to waste your time believing in your
DW> imaginary tyrant, go right ahead. However, if you wish to "save" me,
DW> you're gonna have to cough up some proof.
I am not trying to "save you" nor am I able to if I would like to.
I am merely pointing out that not everyone swallows the lie that
we came from monkeys, and I have already answered the remark about
proving that God exsists.
DW> One cannot help but wonder where you've been hiding. The argument from
DW> design was debunked long ago. Most self-respecting theists refrain
DW> from even mentioning it.
Well, I just joined this conference, and I havent been hiding
from anyone... As to the remark that Theists refrain from using
design in their arguments, I guess you haven't heard of The
Institute for Creation Research. There has been a debate going
for many years over the facts of Science SUPPORTING creation.
And as the debate rolls on, more and more credible scientists
are standing up and being counted in the ranks of Creationists.
... "...Professing themselves wise, they became fools." Romans 1:22
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Dave Keeton
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: Proof
Date: 09 Jan 94 10:44:27
--------
EID:9147 1c295580
MSGID: 1:3406/27.0 2d306cab
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Eval]
TID: FastEcho 1.40 UNREG
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Dave Keeton <=-
MG> 5. Random events do not occur and stick around. If the car were
MG> thrown enough times, it would eventually take the required shape for
MG> someone to get in and driv eit away. You try a different combinations
MG> every nanosecond for ten millionyears, you are bound to get it right
MG> sooner or later.
Man, you guys think that my arguments are ludicris?! What a crock!
Neo-Darwin Evolution would be impossible inside the scope of 10-20
billion years because the chance of random shuffling of amino acids
(the building blocks of life) producing a workable set of enzymes
would be less then 10 to the -40,000 (this is a conservative
estimate by British Astrophysicist Sir Fred Hoyle made in 1981).
Science does have a limit in the Laws of Probability, at which
something can be considered IMPOSSIBLE. Anything less than 10
to the -50 is considered absurd. Even if you ran your different
combinations in the 20 BILLION years, you wouldn't have the TIME
to come up with the right combination.
... I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
--- Blue Wave/RA v2.12 [NR]
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Marilyn Burge
Sub: Gotta love it!
Date: 9 Jan 94 10:33:25
--------
EID:6b3b 1c295420
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d3023e5
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:105/40.3 b367c095
A pregnant pause ensued as Marilyn Burge shared a conception -- Gotta love
it!
-- with David Rice on 06 Jan 94 16:17:
> DR> "In addition to a firm commitment to creationism and to
> DR> full Biblical inerrancy and authority, the ICR Graduate
> DR> School is committed to traditional education and to high
> DR> standards of academic excellence..."
MB> I see. Can you say "owymoron?"
I can, but I sound silly when I do.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Larry Slade
Sub: Geology
Date: 9 Jan 94 10:41:13
--------
EID:67d6 1c295520
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d3027d8
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:106/3323.0 2d2c9586
A pregnant pause ensued as Larry Slade shared a conception -- Geology --
with
All on 06 Jan 94 17:49:
LS> Can someone please post a listing of the geological evidence that
LS> refutes the Great Flood and the story of Noah's ark?
That has been posted here many times, and doubtless someone will put it
u
p again. Infinitely more rare is any evidence SUPPORTING "the Great Flood
and
the story of Noah's ark". Do you have any?
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: John Passaniti
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 9 Jan 94 10:56:05
--------
EID:83ed 1c295700
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d302947
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:2613/102 03828643
A pregnant pause ensued as John Passaniti shared a conception -- Aids Kills
--
with Greg Nienaltowski on 07 Jan 94 03:59:
>> Once an atheist and a priest were talking, thus spake the
>> atheist:
JP> "Thus spake?" Is this 1994? Anyway...
John, it's good to see you again after 2-3 years. Welcome to HS!
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Ciya is behind you!
Date: 9 Jan 94 11:01:58
--------
EID:fb2f 1c295820
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d302b2b
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d1e5dc2
A pregnant pause ensued as Len Ovens shared a conception -- Ciya is behind
you
! -- with Robert Curry on 26 Dec 93 20:00:
LO> difference between a proper name and a noun. If you do even a little
LO> research (beyond you I know), you will
LO> find the difference between "gods" ,
LO> "god thing" and God. They are not the
LO> same.
They are to those who hold that all figments of the imagination are creat
ed equal. What renders your visions different from those of a pious Hindu?
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Len Ovens
Sub: The Gospel sucks
Date: 9 Jan 94 11:05:22
--------
EID:1e98 1c2958a0
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d302bf4
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d1e5fe0
A pregnant pause ensued as Len Ovens shared a conception -- The Gospel sucks
-
- with Robert Curry on 26 Dec 93 20:09:
LO> Atheist? what do you believe that makes you one?
For my part, I believe that I have never seen any evidence, apart from th
e self-serving assertions of believers, that supports the notion of the
existe
nce of supernatural beings, whether gods, ghosts or gollums.
---
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--------
From: Don Martin
To: Len Ovens
Sub: evidence
Date: 9 Jan 94 11:08:45
--------
EID:9834 1c295900
MSGID: 1:109/519.37 2d302c7a
PID XRS! 5.1-
REPLY: 1:153/7070.0 2d1e895e
A pregnant pause ensued as Len Ovens shared a conception -- evidence --
with R
obert Curry on 26 Dec 93 23:06:
LO> And you call my answers bad, Show (or
LO> perhaps shut up ) that God is in
LO> my imagination and is not the creator.
Enlightenment: It is YOUR job, since you are the one with the positive
a
ssertion that a god exists, to demonstrate that this concept is something
more
than a construct of your doubtlessly fertile mind.
---
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--------
From: Steve Rose
To: Chuck Dubman
Sub: Endtimes / "Bob"
Date: 09 Jan 94 18:40:02
--------
EID:c9e9 1c299500
MSGID: 1:109/601 2d304fc7
REPLY: 1:261/1093.0 2d2f3800
PID: GED G1219 1039US3
Hello Chuck!
CD> I'm confused. When exactly did "Bob" predict the World would end?
When the Chiefs win the Superbowl.
--- IM 2.26mL/Fmail 0.96g+
* Origin: * ABySS BBS * Fundy Follies (1:109/601)
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--------
From: Howard Harkness
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Aids
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:50:11
--------
EID:6510 1c277640
MSGID: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb75
SB>Sorry, but Christian morality is the only hope this world has. To bad
t
SB>world is going to refuse to follow it.
By their fruits shall ye know them. More human suffering has
been inflicted in the name of Christianity than by any other
'ism' -- with the possible exception of Islam.
---
* MegaMail 2.10 #0:Ross 4x4 multitrack 4sale $250 (817)267-6227
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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--------
From: Howard Harkness
To: Jonny Vee
Sub: Evolutional Ignorance
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:50:11
--------
EID:176a 1c277640
MSGID: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb76
JV>due to ignorance or knowingly repeating lies, but I would suggest
JV>that they may also be acting under influence of faith, unable to
JV>recognize that they are disseminating disinformation, unable to
JV>distinguish between objective reality and the myth they believe in.
Excellent article! Well-written, and lucid.
I have another theory: It's not faith, but fear. The fear
that they might be wrong is so great that comfort can only be
derived by getting other people to agree with them...
...Jesus, the same yesterday, today, forever: Dead.
---
* MegaMail 2.10 #0:If someone asks if you're a God, answer YES!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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--------
From: Howard Harkness
To: Tyler A. Wunder
Sub: Fact vs. Faith
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:50:11
--------
EID:2ec7 1c277640
MSGID: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb77
TA>claims yet claim that your claims are logical. Never preach before anyo
TA>the choir, as you must only attempt to sway the pre-swayed; you shall
ne
Actually, I have run into cults which claim that the "saved"
are all pre-chosen.
...a cult is a religion lacking political power.
---
* MegaMail 2.10 #0:We get the leaders we deserve, but Bill Clinton?
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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--------
From: Howard Harkness
To: Patrick Humphrey
Sub: no not that
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:50:11
--------
EID:c97b 1c277640
MSGID: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb78
KJ> independantly came up with the same results : The probability of
KJ> coming into existence without the intervention of some divine being
KJ> 0. These experiments weren't conducted by Joe Blow these people k
^^^^^^^^^^^
Another fundy gone off half-cocked. Experiments, indeed.
---
* MegaMail 2.10 #0:Programmer of Borg: Documentation is irrelevant.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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From: Howard Harkness
To: John Musselwhite
Sub: Saturnalia
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:50:11
--------
EID:6e66 1c277640
MSGID: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb79
JM> Too bad I missed it... I'm married so don't get NEARLY enough of
tha
JM>anymore! B-})
Married the wrong one, then. ;->
---
* MegaMail 2.10 #0:Programmer of Borg: Design is irrelevent.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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From: Howard Harkness
To: Rob Fargher
Sub: True Fear of God
Date: 07 Jan 94 14:50:11
--------
EID:fb55 1c277640
MSGID: 1:124/2113@fidonet.org 1390eb7a
RF>... Prayer: A request for annulment of the laws of the universe.
... on behalf of a person who admits to being unworthy!
---
* MegaMail 2.10 #0:Respect you in the morning? I sleep until noon!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'e'
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--------
From: Marty Leipzig
To: All
Sub: Something else found while looking for something else
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:24:18
--------
EID:c07c 1c287300
Whilst digging again, alas, through some old files, I found
this little gem. I hope you enjoy. If not, too bad, it's
already locked in your synapses...
_STRUTHIOMIMUS_, or the danger of being too clever.
The Dinosaurs, or so we're told,
Were far too imbecile to hold
Their own against mammalian brains;
Today not one of them remains.
There is another school of thought,
Which says they suffered from a sort
Of constipation from the loss
Of adequate supplies of moss.
But science now can put before us
The reason true why _Brontosaurus_
Became extinct. In the Cretaceous
A beast incredibly sagacious
Lived and loved and ate its fill;
Long were its legs, and sharp its bill,
Cunning its hands, to steal the eggs
Of beasts as clumsy in the legs
As _Proto-_ and _Triceratops_,
And run, like gangsters from the cops,
To some safe vantage point from which
It could enjoy its plunder rich.
Cleverer than any fox,
Or Bryan in the witness box.
It was a very great success.
No egg was safe from it unless
Retained within its mothers' womb,
And so the archosaurs met their doom.
The Dinosaurs were most put out
And bitterly complained about
The way their eggs, of giant size,
Were eaten up before their eyes,
Before they had a chance to hatch,
By a beast they couldn't catch.
This awful carnage could not last;
The Age of Archosaurs was past.
They went as broody as a hen
When all her eggs were pinched by men.
Older they grew, and sadder yet,
But still no offspring could they beget.
Until at last the fearful time, as
Yet unguessed by _Struthiomimus_
Arrived, when no more eggs were laid,
And then at last was he afraid.
He could not learn to climb with ease
To reach the birds' nests in the trees,
And though he followed round and round
Some funny furry things he found,
They never laid an egg - not once.
It made him feel an awful dunce.
So, thin beyond all recognition,
He died at last of inanition.
MORAL
This story has a simple moral
With which the wise hardly quarrel;
Remember, chum, it hardly ever
Pays to be too bloody clever.
... Protest Dinoflagellates! Mesozoic Society against Perverted Practices
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: MAYBE YOU CAN TELL ME
Date: 09 Jan 94 20:57:32
--------
EID:f2dc 1c29a720
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30b60c
ML> Careful Eugene, who gets a blast out of plasma
ML> detonics, said to Marty Leipzig:
ML> Careful Eugene, who thought 2000 Roentgens were 2 rad,
ML> said to Steve Quarrella:
ML>
SQ> Tecumque.
ML>
CE> Really! Niota, etowah.
ML>
ML> Yataheah! Shiechk es?
ML>
ML> Estsotsos! Keyosho, shatata.
CE> Eskimo? Give me a break......
ML> Nahhh...Navajo.
ML> Nearly as obscure.
As obscure as the Cherokee I used....
Not sure what the Navajo means, but I would bet it is a robust greeting
an
d a wish for dignified interactions.
The Cherokee _niota_ is a word that roughly translated means "Pleasant gre
etings" and Etowah means "eternal water".
My family comes from "eternal water" Tennessee.
The greeting as a single phrase means "pleasant greetings, welcome to my
w
ater", a welcome greeting to those who travelled far to partake at Tellico.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: David Worrell
Sub: Maybe you can tell me
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:07:30
--------
EID:9e3d 1c29a8e0
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30b862
RC> My question is about what you may or may not have. Do you, Jesse,
RC> have evidence that Yahweh is any less dependent
RC> on imagination than is
RC> Ciya?
JCJ> I suppose you have also conveniently forgotten that I have told
JCJ> you repeatedly over several months now that I will not answer your
JCJ> stupid question. Once more: your question is
JCJ> stupid, and I will not
JCJ> answer it.
DW>
DW> Are you sure it's not that the question shakes your puny religious
DW> beliefs and you _cannot_ answer it truthfully?
I don't think the question troubles him nearly as much as the answer.
To refuse to discuss it is in itself an admission that there is merit
to the question you presented our erstwhile (although wobbling) fundy dood.
Forge onward! There are plenty more questions he won't want to answer,I'm
betting.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: David Worrell
Sub: Good?
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:10:34
--------
EID:6e7a 1c29a940
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30b91a
SB> The confusion comes from the definition of
SB> "good". People can do good
SB> as the world sees good without the Holy Spirit.
SB> However, people can
SB> not do good as God sees good unless they do it in the power of the
SB> Holy Spirit.
DW>
DW> Let me get this straight. If I, as a non-christian, save your life
DW> tomorrow, then I have performed an evil act in the eyes of God????
Only in his fundy mind. His own religious text gives examples of people
wh
o are supposedly _guarenteed_ a place in heaven....without the prerequisite
"r
ebirth" foisted upon us all by evangelical hucksters.
Otherwise, how could a host of men sing the "Song of Moses" at the right
h
and of YHWH himself? Either that or the Revelation of John is void and heretic
al at the same time.
......and the Arab nations have a "covenant" with YHWH that dates to Abrah
am and is just as valid as the "covenant" YHWH made with the jews.
The bible has three seperate groups (that I am aware of) that YHWH made
bi
nding deals with....just like the jews got.
I won't even get into the concept of Manassas.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: David Worrell
Sub: * Hey! *
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:17:20
--------
EID:e4bf 1c29aa20
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bab0
RV> I believe.
RV> I do not believe.
RV> I both believe and do not believe.
RV> I neither believe nor not believe.
DW>
DW> So basically, you're just confused?
Tom T Hall said it best in "Puppy dogs, Children and Watermelon wine".
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: Scott Charles
Sub: FIDONEWS SUBMISSION
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:18:24
--------
EID:e9de 1c29aa40
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30baf0
SC> wow
Wait until you see mine......
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: Scott Charles
Sub: FIDONEWS SUBMISSION
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:20:22
--------
EID:e9de 1c29aa80
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bb66
SC> god bless all those who desire to help others and seek
SC> peace. god bless my black friends, my yellow friends,
SC> my gay and lesbian friends, my heterosexual friends,
SC> their children and all their families. god grant me
SC> the wisdom not to judge, grant me strength and
SC> resolve, grant me wisdom.
SC> peace.
Hey! Not bad for a fundy dood! Sure you don't want to damn us to hell or
s
omething else equally interesting?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: Stephen Lochmiller
Sub: ADAM...
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:22:20
--------
EID:5cda 1c29aac0
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bbdc
SL> tell you that in my heart, I do believe it just as much as I believe
that
SL> Abraham Linconl lived also.
Isn't he the one who freed the nigrols?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: Quentin Fai
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:24:40
--------
EID:c4e8 1c29ab00
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bc68
REPLY: 1:358/1 03894b86
QF> * JABBER v1.3B1 #B135 * MARIJUANA NETWORK: LIGHT ONE UP FOR JESUS.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gimme netmail on this.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: Brian Newman
Sub: Re: Well folks....
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:25:44
--------
EID:45f1 1c29ab20
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bca8
REPLY: 1:105/69.0 2d2c3b83
BN> Are you kidding? Pat Robertson practically endorsed -- on
BN> international television -- killing homosexuals on
BN> sight. He'd be one of the
BN> first to tell you what horrible monsters we all are
BN> and how all we want to do
BN> is rape your children.
Not to mention how you guys conduct yourselves at the annual "Squick-A-Tho
n". Really.....KY at a squickfest....shamey, shamey.
Just stay away from my peanutbutter sandwiches.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Brian Newman
Sub: True colors
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:27:56
--------
EID:0759 1c29ab60
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30bd2c
REPLY: 1:105/69.0 2d2c3b84
BN> I can't believe that every single person is that dumb,
...after interviewing electrical engineers for the last 6 weeks, I can pos
itively assure you that most of the population are as dumb (if not dumber)
tha
n you percieve them.
Out of 12, only 2 could draw a simple 4 flag interrupting interlock with
l
atched active outputs. I don't expect someone off the street to be able
to do
it, but fer Christ's Sakes, 4 year grads who can't do ladder logic?
America is fucked. Run away! Run away!
Imagine dolts like this running 135,000 grid all over your state......I
th
ink you get the picture.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Michael Johnson
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: asshole
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:33:12
--------
EID:8b6a 1c29ac20
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30be68
OH.....BY THE WAY.
Next time a goddamned airliner goes down with a full belly in Siberia,
you better be stopping by to tell me you are not dead, fer cryin out loud!
Sh
eeze....I had to go lookin for you and then, when I found you, you are here
in
this den of reprobates beating up on poor defenseless fundies.
May your cheese-log freeze in the middle of a tinkle at -50 deg C.
You already know to check when I die, so we'll skip that crap.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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From: Careful Eugene
To: Jesse C. Jones
Sub: Heathens
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:48:56
--------
EID:f9c4 1c29ae00
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30c218
REPLY: 1:135/71.0 2d2b8525
MB> heathen n. 1 a : an unconverted member of a people or nation that
MB> does not acknowledge the God of the Bible. b :
MB> a person whose culture
MB> or enlightenmnet is of an inferior grade; esp ;
MB> an irreligious person.
MB> b : a person felt to resemble a heathen (as in nonconformity or
MB> ignorance).
MB> Sort of conjured up images of loincloths and spears, doesn't it?
How do you tell a heathen from a pagan?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: RADIO_FREE_HOUSTON (1:106/3323)
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: cards
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:50:10
--------
EID:721a 1c29ae40
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30c262
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 39d38b26
S> Somehow I thought you'd enjoy that...BTW: heard from Mikey
S> lately?
MG> Not a whole bunch. Is he dead again?
What do you call this? Gevelte' fish?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Careful Eugene
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: Hey
Date: 09 Jan 94 21:51:50
--------
EID:6e51 1c29ae60
MSGID: 1:106/3323.0 2d30c2c6
REPLY: 1:124/4115.221 39d39be2
JM> Congratulations! This is the first post I've seen with
JM> your new name...
JM> how does it fit? B-})
JM> So... when do we see YOUR GIF?
MG> I got you beat. I saw the original tonight. She's
MG> much better looking than you.
If your wife finds them, she'll give you the "Bobbitt Treatment". Multiple
nekkid wimmins pix seeems to kickstart their motors with ether fumes on
the s
ide.
Especially if they are signed....
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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--------
From: Steve Quarrella
To: All
Sub: HYPNOTHERAPY
Date: 09 Jan 94 22:08:42
--------
EID:b9f5 1c29b100
MSGID: 1:124/9005 2d30807f
PID: GEDP32 G1219 1554US1
=============================================================================
* Forwarded by Steve Quarrella (1:124/9005)
* Area : UFO (UFO)
* From : Jim Doyle, 1:115/887 (Jovis dies January 06 1994 21:23)
* To : Stewart Harris
* Subj : HYPNOTHERAPY
=============================================================================
SH> However, two government agencies, because of a device I have
SH> which overcomes gravity without using any energy, have had me
SH> judged mentally incompetent and my passport is being held up
SH> under "administrative review."
Gee, sorry to hear that.
Message written at 9:23pm, on Thursday, January 6, 1994.
-+- TMail v1.31.5
# Origin: CACC - Multiline - 708-739-0201 (8:8/0)
+ Origin: FamilyNet Intl. Echogate [708] 887-7685 (1:115/887)
=============================================================================
Salue, All!
Thought some would get a chuckle out of this. Sorry I didn't catch the
original.
--- GoldED 2.42.G1219+
* Origin: Once again, truth and American technology defeat Satan (1:124/9005)
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--------
From: Len Ovens
To: Dan Ceppa
Sub: Guess who's coming to di
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:17:02
--------
EID:3f97 1c288a20
MSGID: 1:153/7070.0 2d2f5b0e
On 01-02-94 Dan Ceppa wrote to Jesse C. Jones...
DC> JCJ> The Reign of God.
DC>
DC> I do believe that that was misspelled. The word that you
DC> are tryng to find is "Reins".....
Same root either word will do. Would you prefer some one else to hold the
"reins"? I'd rather work for my creator than myself.
Len
___
* OFFLINE 1.56
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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--------
From: Len Ovens
To: Alan Hess
Sub: no not that
Date: 08 Jan 94 17:21:04
--------
EID:e851 1c288aa0
MSGID: 1:153/7070.0 2d2f5c00
On 01-04-94 Alan Hess wrote to Marty Leipzig...
AH> claim he talks back. God has better things to do than have
AH> conversations with mere humans.
Yes, but then I have better things to do than talk to my son too.
Len
Excuse me while I remove tongue from cheek!
___
* OFFLINE 1.56
--- Maximus/2 2.01wb
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Steve Quarrella
Sub: Even *more* DOOM lunacy
Date: 07 Jan 94 16:39:00
--------
EID:33b1 1c2784e0
MSGID: 1:250/820 2d2dd6a4
Answering a msg of , from Steve Quarrella to !all!:
And, from Fidonet:PDREVIEW, yet another braindead fundi blathering about
Doom:
Ä [24] Shareware/Freeware/PD Review (1:250/820) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ PDREVIEW
Ä
Msg : 4 of 42 + 33
From : Elwood Morgan 1:274/16 Mon 03 Jan 94
02:0
5
To : Nathan Brown
Subj : Doom Bashing
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ä Ä
NB>It bothers me that there are so many people that trying to be other people'
s
NB>moral conscious. The game is ultra violent, yes. It was never advertised
NB>that
NB>it was tame. There are some people who have no problem with that kind
of
NB>violence and lead normal lives. Like a game like Doom, or calling it
aweso
m
NB>doesn't mean that person is a sicko.
NB>Yes, I am one of those who happen to like the game. I like it for many
NB>reasons, the graphics, sound, the way it handles, etc. I don't find
the go
r
NB>or violence offensive, though I did mention to my wife that it was pretty
NB>much.
I love the game and love to play it. I only have the shareware version
right now and hope to register soon.
The problem I have with it is the `demonic influence'. It is offensive
to many and not necessary. I have no problem with the violence. I take
pleasure in blasting away with the rockets, toasting everybody! It gets
so intense that I feel like I am there...
The messages you are referring to are ones that they also did not care
for the heavy satanic influence and torture aspects of the registered
version.
NB>If you like it, great more power to you. If you don't, say so in a general
NB>way, don't slam others who happen to like this game.
It is not a slam to others to say that you find a feature of a game to
be offensive or in poor taste... DOOM is the best game to be found in
shareware or in commercialware anywhere.
Elwood
-!-
! Origin: End of the Line. (703)720-1624 in Stafford, Va. (1:274/16)
.PATH: 274/16 1 273/10 209/209 396/1 3615/50 250/636 99 801
Ä [24] Shareware/Freeware/PD Review (1:250/820) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ PDREVIEW
Ä
Msg : 19 of 42 - 7 + 24
From : Jeff Hancock 1:3600/7 Mon 03 Jan 94
23:5
1
To : Ellery July
Subj : Doom
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ä Ä
.Via SLMAIL v3.0 (#1540)
EJ>I've played Doom and it is one of the worse games I have seen. Only a
EJ>truly sick mind would enjoy it. After you finish the game do you go and
EJ>bite off kitten heads.
I see SOMEONE can't seem to tell the difference between fantasy and
reality.
IT'S A COMPUTER GAME, for cryin' out loud. The type of person who would
be encouraged by this doesn't need a game, he'll think of it himself.
ÄĶÆ Crazy-J ®ĶÄ
-=-
ž OLX 2.2 ž DOOM: The ultimate encounter with virtual death!
-!- SLMAIL v3.0 (#1540)
! Origin: Robotech BBS +HST+ *MODs/GIFs/Demos* 904-758-9477 ž (1:3600/7)
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Ä [24] Shareware/Freeware/PD Review (1:250/820) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ PDREVIEW
Ä
Msg : 25 of 42 + 31
From : Thomas Fung 1:134/40 Tue 04 Jan 94
19:4
4
To : Steven Leigh
Subj : Down with DOOM!
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ä Ä
.MSGID: 1:134/40.0 2d2a2982
-=> Quoting Steven Leigh to All <=-
SL> As I said before I
SL> enjoy to some extend a little gore for fun ( no problems
SL> with mortal kombat to name one game criticized as being to
SL> violent/bloody) but the evil and disturbing imagery in Doom
SL> crosses a line for me..... this aint fun anymore.
You mean the registered version of Doom has even more
gore than Mortal Kombat? I'm glad that I didn't register the
game, then. I thought Doom (shareware version) was quite
violent and gory enough to disturb many people. I fully
expected some people to react like Ellery did.
I personally think Doom may be disturbing enough to
have warning labels on the title screen. If games continue
to follow the trend of "More Gore! More Guts!" then I'll
FULLY support government measures to impose warning lables.
If REALLY it gets excessive, I believe censorship may be
inevitable. (I don't personally believe in censorship.)
Thomas
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
-!- Maximus 2.01wb
! Origin: TechTalk; Calgary, Alberta, CANADA, HST 16.8/V.32bis (1:134/40)
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Ä [24] Shareware/Freeware/PD Review (1:250/820) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ PDREVIEW
Ä
Msg : 29 of 42 - 24 + 38
From : Steven Tallent 1:3811/210 Mon 03 Jan 94
09:1
5
To : Daniel Rymer
Subj : Doom
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ä Ä
-=> Misquoting Daniel Rymer to Steven Tallent <=-
ST>You'd think that with all those great graphic engines they could come
up
>with a virtual game that didn't require actual spilling guts and listening
>to sound effects that sound like eternal torment itself.
DR> Geez... what do you want, a 3-d motorboat racing game? The violence
DR> is what everyone likes in a game.
I'm not against a little violence in a game. It's that part of the game
that makes you feel pitted soul-against-soul with an imaginary enemy. Racing
motorboats just doens't do it. But the demonic undertones and excessive
violence (come on, now, a chainsaw?) makes the game more gory than its worth.
DR> It's been that way for years.
The graphics have not been around *that* long.
DR> They could maybe come up with something more civilized I guess. The
DR> problem is, who would buy it?
Me.
DR> Maybe they could sell the technology to the people to made the Test
DR> Drive games... I sure hated those darned polygon thangs.
Gag a maggot. The Out Of This World demo looked pretty neat, though.
I don't have the game.
DR> I'm glad people have finially see the light, and left that poly-crap.
Me too. Now I just wish they'd leave 320x200. But that'll have to
wait for the memory (texture storage) and hardware bottlenecks to break
down.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
-!- Renegade v12-25 Exp
! Origin: Pink's Place (409)883-4049 735-3712 (Four Nodes!) (1:3811/210)
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Ä [24] Shareware/Freeware/PD Review (1:250/820) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ PDREVIEW
Ä
Msg : 31 of 42 - 25
From : Steven Tallent 1:3811/210 Tue 04 Jan 94
17:1
5
To : Steven Leigh
Subj : Down with DOOM!
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ä Ä
-=> Misquoting Steven Leigh to Steven Tallent <=-
SL> As I have just recently won the entire thing,
I got through the shareware version ok (used the cheat codes though).
SL> all I can say is that it gets worse.......
SL> None of it was neccesary, as I have said but I think the incredible
SL> sales will make eventual sequel more of the same. The end leaves the
SL> door wide open for more evil. It suggests that the demons have now made
SL> it to major metropolises on Earth...
Well, the real ones, of course, have (and that's no game matter), but
hopefully ID will get enough comments to write a new game `sans daemon'.
Oh, I played `Mortal Combat' and `Mortal Combat II' a couple of days ago
just to see the game myself. I think the games are both disgusting in
the `finishes', but the violence is no more graphic than Blake Stone
(although it is more imaginative). Doom is definitely the worst one out
there.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
-!- Renegade v12-25 Exp
! Origin: Pink's Place (409)883-4049 735-3712 (Four Nodes!) (1:3811/210)
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Ä [24] Shareware/Freeware/PD Review (1:250/820) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ PDREVIEW
Ä
Msg : 33 of 42 - 4 + 42
From : Steven Tallent 1:3811/210 Tue 04 Jan 94
17:1
5
To : Nathan Brown
Subj : Doom Bashing
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ä Ä
-=> Misquoting Nathan Brown to All <=-
NB> It bothers me that there are so many people that trying to be other
NB> people's moral conscious.
That's God's job alone.
NB> I like it for the graphics, sound, the way it handles, etc.
Me too. The realism is awesome. Trashes Wolf3d, SOD, Blake.
NB> I don't find the gore or violence offensive, though I did mention to
NB> my wife that it was pretty much.
Well, that's all very subjective.
... "Me hav'em Heap trouble." - Tonto the programmer
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
-!- Renegade v12-25 Exp
! Origin: Pink's Place (409)883-4049 735-3712 (Four Nodes!) (1:3811/210)
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Ä [24] Shareware/Freeware/PD Review (1:250/820) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ PDREVIEW
Ä
Msg : 42 of 42 - 33 Loc
From : Coridon Henshaw 1:250/820 Fri 07 Jan 94
15:4
9
To : Steven Tallent
Subj : Doom Bashing
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Ä Ä
.MSGID: 1:250/820 2d2dcacf
On Tuesday January 04 1994, Steven Tallent wrote to Nathan Brown:
NB>> It bothers me that there are so many people that trying to be other
NB>> people's moral conscious.
ST> That's God's job alone.
Just because *YOU* beleve in some imaginary superfriend doesn't mean you
have
the 'god' given right to force your religous 'ethics' on others.
CSBH
... DOOM Cheat key: idchoppers (Chainsaw and god mode)
-!- GoldED 2.41
! Origin: Jesus loves you; everybody else thinks you're an asshole (1:250/820
)
C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Gods are like roadkill: they're dead and they stink (1:250/820)
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Merry Christmas...
Date: 07 Jan 94 16:59:01
--------
EID:32b5 1c278760
MSGID: 1:250/820 2d2ddbb1
REPLY: 1:133/208.0 2d2a2898
Tuesday January 04 1994, Joe Savelli writes to David Worrell:
JS> Homosexuality, and liberalism will fail and as the Bible teaches,
Hey Save-Lie! Yoohoo, anybody in there? Your 'Jesus' was a liberal in
his su
pposed time. Does your bible teach that HE will 'fail'?
Oh, where's that evedence that somebody was arrested in Florida for praying?
C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
* Origin: Gods are like roadkill: they're dead and they stink (1:250/820)
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--------
From: C. J. Henshaw
To: All
Sub: Mississippi Lesbians Tell Bigots "We Won't Leave!" -- ANEWS Forward
--
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:19:01
--------
EID:1dac 1c287260
MSGID: 1:250/820 2d2f077b
ĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶ
* Forwarded by C. J. Henshaw (1:250/820)
* Area : ANEWS (Alternate news echo)
* From : eskimo!blythe.org!ww, 1:343/70.10 (Tuesday January 04 1994 10:24)
* To : All
* Subj : Mississippi Lesbians Tell Bigots "We Won't Leave!"
ĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶ
@MSGID: 1:343/70.10 0000101e
@PID GIGO+ sn 5 at helix vsn 0.94w32
From: eskimo!blythe.org!ww (Workers World Service)
@Message-Id: <9y5mFc13w165w@blythe.org>
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 13:24:19 EST
Organization: NY Transfer News Collective
Via NY Transfer News Collective * All the News that Doesn't Fit
MISSISSIPPI LESBIANS TELL BIGOTS: 'WE WON'T LEAVE!'
By Shelley Ettinger
Earlier this year, civil-rights investigators cited rural Jones
County, Miss., for systematic abuse of African American
prisoners. Now the same forces responsible for racist violence
are waging a terror campaign against two out-of-the-closet white
lesbians in the small Jones County town of Ovett.
The bigots say they mean to drive the women off their 120-acre
farm. But Brenda Henson and Wanda Henson say they aren't going
anywhere.
And Ben Chaney--whose brother James was one of three civil-rights
workers murdered in Philadelphia, Miss., in 1964--says they
shouldn't have to. Chaney has lent his support to the Hensons'
struggle against anti-gay violence.
The Hensons are longtime progressive activists and educators.
They run a literacy center, food bank, clothes closet, crisis
line and displaced homemakers' program in Gulfport, Miss.
They bought the Ovett property in July. They call it Camp Sister
Spirit.
They plan to make it a center for anti-poverty and anti-racism
organizing and literacy training--an educational retreat for
people of all nationalities, lesbian, gay and straight.
Brenda Henson told Workers World: "This land is a dream come true
for us: a feminist adult learning center. Being able to make a
space available for lesbians and others is a dream come true."
A Klan-type offensive by backward white townspeople has
temporarily interrupted the dream.
Henson said: "There's certainly a Klan mentality, a gang
mentality, at work here. It creates a rabid-dog situation."
"It feels like we're under siege," she said. But she also said:
"We're armed. And I've made that real clear.
"In fact, the sheriff said there's a bunch of trigger-fingered
women out there."
The women are bringing in reinforcements--also armed. The mad
dogs will be stopped.
Henson said what's needed is "more people being here, and also
with people in Mississippi speaking out for us, clergy to speak
out, Parents and Friends of Lesbians And Gays, and so on.
"That's how to put the bigots on the defensive."
GUNS AND PUPPIES
The horrors against the Hensons have included many incidents of
men with guns and rifles, often drunk, driving onto the land and
threatening the women. Shots have been fired at their property.
A dead puppy was hung on the mailbox. So were threatening signs.
People drive by and yell anti-gay slurs.
"Our latest telephone death threat was Christmas night," Henson
said.
Things reached a low on Dec. 6. At a so-called town meeting, 250
people ranted against lesbians and discussed how to kick the
Hensons out of Ovett.
According to a Henson friend who infiltrated the meeting, one
participant actually said, "It's time to put on the white
sheets."
Another right winger referred to the civil-rights movement that
shook the racists in the 1960s. He said: "Well, we let them come
in 30 years ago. We should have stopped them then."
Local officials, including the attorney for nearby Perry County's
Board of Supervisors, also took part in the meeting. The sheriff
has made his allegiance clear, too.
Radio reactionary Rush Limbaugh has even mentioned Ovett on his
show. Henson says this may indicate the right wing is organizing
nationally around this case.
Another "town meeting" is set for Jan. 3. There is to be a report
on legal research into how to kick the lesbians out of
Ovett--and, presumably, further discussion on stepping up more
down-to-earth tactics.
Brenda Henson said, "I view this as an open conspiracy to deny us
our civil rights."
HQ for racist lynchings
Henson pointed out that Jones County has been the scene of some
of the worst racist outrages in the state--including a wave of
jailhouse lynchings of Black youths.
At least 47 prisoners were "found dead by hanging" in Mississippi
prisons from 1987 through 1992.
Police claimed the prisoners all hanged themselves. But when a
coalition of civil rights groups formed the Commission on Human
Rights Abuses in Mississippi and held hearings in March 1993,
testimony and evidence pointed to lynchings.
The Hensons' daughter Andrea Gibbs, who is now helping her
mothers protect their land, is already on the right wing's
enemies list. She presented key testimony against prison
officials at the March 1993 hearing.
A former deputy at the Harrison County Jail, she had resigned in
protest at the brutality inflicted on prisoners there.
Since then, she has worked with Ben Chaney in the struggle
against the racist prison system in Mississippi. Chaney has said
the right wing is trying to create "a continuation, a revival, of
the fear that existed in Mississippi prior to 1964."
Chaney told Workers World that after the Hensons discovered the
dead puppy on their mailbox, Gibbs called him to ask for help.
He went to Camp Sister Spirit that afternoon.
Later--at about midnight--Chaney came back. He led a caravan of
four cars full of people who came to guard the lesbians' land.
"We stayed there until about 4 in the morning," he told Workers
World. Since then he has expressed his continuing solidarity with
the Hensons, and consulted with them about their struggle.
The Hensons are also in touch with the Southern Poverty Law
Center, the Center for Constitutional Rights in Mississippi, and
various religious and civil-rights groups.
SUPPORT NEEDED!
Meanwhile, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force is appealing
to Attorney General Janet Reno to intervene against the bigots.
Robin Kane of the NGLTF told Workers World her organization has
requested assistance from the Community Relations Service, a
Justice Department agency.
On Dec. 22, U.S. Rep. Don Edwards of California sent a letter to
Reno urging federal intervention to defend the Ovett lesbians.
But CRS's official mandate does not cover disputes concerning
gays and lesbians. There is no federal or Mississippi law banning
anti-gay bias.
As of Dec. 28, Kane said, there has been only silence from the
Clinton administration.
Locally, neighbors have stopped by to offer solidarity. The
Hattiesburg American newspaper ran an editorial defending the
Hensons and denouncing the bigots--and positive letters to the
editor poured in.
Lesbians and gays in the area, however, are afraid for their
lives. Some are working behind the scenes; most feel they can't
come out in public.
Support from the progressive movement around the country is
crucial.
Henson said supporters can send funds. Donations--which will be
used to install a security system and other devices to defend the
property, and to feed the people guarding the land--can be sent
to Camp Sister Spirit, Post Office Box 12, Ovett, Miss. 39464.
The lesbians also want supporters to come join them on the land.
At this point a small crew guards it, sleeping in shifts and
never leaving alone.
The Hensons don't plan to attend the Jan. 3 "town meeting" to
confront the right wingers. But there are rumors that others may.
And national television crews are expected to film the
proceedings.
"Shining a light under their hoods should make the terrorists
uncomfortable," commented lesbian anti-racist activist Pat Chin
of the International Action Center in New York.
"But what's really needed is to shift the balance of forces so
that they're outgunned, out-organized, and driven back under
their rocks. Mass support for Camp Sister Spirit is needed--now."
-30-
(Copyright Workers World Service: Permission to reprint granted
if source is cited. For more information contact Workers World,
55 West 17 St., New York, NY 10011; via e-mail: ww@blythe.org.)
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
+ 212-675-9690 NY TRANSFER NEWS COLLECTIVE 212-675-9663 +
+ Since 1985: Information for the Rest of Us +
+ e-mail: nyt@blythe.org info: info@blythe.org +
-+-
+ Origin: Helix: FidoNet <> Usenet - Seattle (206)783-6368 (1:343/70.10)
@PATH: 343/70 300 1 138/1 270/101 396/1 3615/50 250/636 99 801
ĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶĶ
C. J.
--- GEcho 1.00
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--------
From: Rob Fargher
To: Marty Leipzig
Sub: Parthenogenesis
Date: 08 Jan 94 09:10:43
--------
EID:bdfe 1c284940
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 2d308ecb
-=| On 06 Jan 94 08:32:44, Marty Leipzig imparted this gem of wisdom |=-
to Joshua Lee.
ML> Parthenogenesis is very common in reptiles and fish.
I would take exception to your usage of "very common". To me,
parthenogenesis implies a self-fertilizing hermaphrodite (at least
among the Chordates).
The only fish that I'm aware of that is capable of parthenogenesis is
_Rivulus marmoratus_, which forms clones of females. Do you know of
others?
BTW, your little gem "Carcinogenic if incensed!" in a previous message
evened the score up for the "wide legged walking" .
Cheers,
Rob
... An unbiased opinion is absolutely valueless.
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Greg Nienaltowski
Sub: Aids Kills
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:53:22
--------
EID:8949 1c2876a0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d2eca54
REPLY: 1:2410/278 02848aeb
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Greg:
In a msg of , Greg Nienaltowski writes to David
Worre
ll:
GN> Once an atheist and a priest were talking, thus spake the
GN> atheist:
GN> "Father, how can you waste your whole life on a mere belief?
GN> There are so many things you are missing and could be enjoying...."
etc.
GN> then the priest said:
GN> "My son, if I am wrong, I have but wasted 70 years, 1 life in
GN> billions that don't matter, but if I am RIGHT, you will have wasted
an
GN> eternity for 70 years of self-indulgance."
GN> I'd say it takes at LEAST a lot of GUTS to be sure there is
no
GN> God, if not faith...
I think your story is lacking in something. The atheist is not quite fin
ished, and comments:
"Father Pascal, how do you know you have chosen the right faith to have?
What if only Muslims go to heaven? Or what if only Hindus go to heaven?
Or w
hat if everyone BUT Catholics go to heaven? Or what if only Jehovah's Witness
es go to heaven? Father, if your best reason for belief is to cover your
ass,
then it would seem that all manner of afterlife possibilities would have
equa
l merit, and you have chosen one in an infinite number of possibilities.
In r
eality, your butt-covering technique offers you no advantage over my atheism,
for there are also possibilities where atheists go to heaven (even where
ONLY
atheists go to heaven) -- if you can offer NOTHING to support your belief
othe
r than trying to hedge your bets towards immortality, then your odds are
no be
tter than mine."
---
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--------
From: Tyler A. Wunder
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Questions
Date: 09 Jan 94 13:46:32
--------
EID:0bd9 1c296dc0
MSGID: 1:221/279.4 2d300aea
REPLY: 1:247/133 048ae549
PID: GED 2.40
PSID: Via P&C.CfEd v2.00b/4.
G'day Steve:
In a msg of , Steve Bedard writes to Tyler A. Wunder:
TA>> Sort of like some of the stuff in the Christian bible?
SB> Nope. Nothing in the Christian Bible comes close to the terrible things
SB> allowed in the Talmud.
Give me an example. Incidentally, have you read your old testament at al
l? Last I heard, it was in the bible, and it does contain some rather glaring
moral atrocities.
---
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From: Paul Boyer
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Well folks....
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:39:00
--------
EID:0871 1c286ce0
MSGID: 1:2607/112 862554C3
JS|Jason, watch CBN news and see the films for yourself (if you dare)...
Joey dear, CBN News has about as much credibility as the Liberty Lobby's
The SPOTLIGHT, or R. Emmett Tyrrell's American Spectator.
In other words, none whatsoever.
paul.boyer@unc.launchpad.edu
* OLX 2.1 * Been to Sodom, did the angels, got the T-shirt.
--- WM v3.10/92-0491
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--------
From: Paul Boyer
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Well Folks....
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:41:00
--------
EID:0871 1c286d20
MSGID: 1:2607/112 862554C4
|Notice that I didn't turn him in to the MP's. He would have ende
|up in the stockade for 20 years if I had done that.
Crapola, Joey. He'd have been dishonorably discharged, not imprisoned
for 20 years, as you claim.
Another of your lies, as usual.
paul.boyer@unc.launchpad.edu
* OLX 2.1 * 5th Rule Of Creationism: Lying for the Lord is okay.
--- WM v3.10/92-0491
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--------
From: Paul Boyer
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Merry Chrustmas...
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:48:00
--------
EID:b589 1c286e00
MSGID: 1:2607/112 862554C5
|takes rights from some and gives them to others. Or Homosexuals and other
|perverts that spread the AIDS virus (85 percent of AIDS victims are homosex
u
|call the CDC in Atlanta to verify this). Evil people (evil by their actions
)
Try again, liar. 48 percent of newly-diagnosed AIDS victims are
homosexual/bisexual men. Those are CDC figures from December 1993.
JS|and George Washington.
|" Reason and expirience forbid us to expect public morality in the absen
se
|religious principle."
And George Washington, at the signing of the Treaty of Tripoli in 1791:
"This country was in no way founded on the Christian religion."
paul.boyer@unc.launchpad.edu
* OLX 2.1 * The will of God is the sanctuary of ignorance. - Spinoza
--- WM v3.10/92-0491
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--------
From: Paul Boyer
To: Joe Savelli
Sub: Wait a minute...
Date: 08 Jan 94 13:55:00
--------
EID:e33f 1c286ee0
MSGID: 1:2607/112 862554C6
|2. I am opposed to homosexuals adopting children. Because many of them
are
|pedophiles.
As we've come to expect from you, another lie. Will you ever stop
lying, Joey?
You do know that there's a commandment against bearing false witness,
don't you?
JS|3. I am opposed to the ridiculous notion that the AIDS epidemic is not
gett
i
|enough attention from the government. We spend more on AIDS cure research
t
h
|we do on cancer. And more people are killed by cancer...
The AIDS epidemic is unlike cancer or heart disease in that it's the
result of a communicable virus. Cancer is not communicable. AIDS has
the potential to be a far greater threat to mankind than cancer or heart
disease *ever* will be.
JS|4. AIDS is being politicized by liberals and homosexuals in order to
gain
|political power. Should the homosexual community
|which comprises only 2 or 3 percent of the population have so much pull
in
|government.
Try again, Joey. The OPENLY gay or bisexual community comprises 4 to 7
percent of the population. Gods only know how many gays and lesbians
are still secretive about their sexual orientation.
paul.boyer@unc.launchpad.edu
* OLX 2.1 * Why experiment on animals with so many Fundies out there?
--- WM v3.10/92-0491
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--------
From: Paul Boyer
To: Kirby Nixon
Sub: Well? Where did you run
Date: 08 Jan 94 14:21:00
--------
EID:81b5 1c2872a0
MSGID: 1:2607/112 862554C7
KN|One guy in our echo took him on after Martin posted some tracts and they
|were debunked to some extent. I never read them - of course. Come
|to think of it Martin just whimpered *again* when called to task for
|his spewage and sulked away.
Er, you're talking about Martin Riley, right?
Have you had a chance to see some of DEBATE's or POLITICS' shining
stars? *chuckle*
Willie Martin is a CLASSIC. Homophobic, antisemitic, and racist as
well.
Seth Esrig is another winner, as is my personal favourite, John Toffton,
a self-described "extreme-right Bible-believing Christian".
Tom and Deeann Gatchell are also barrels of fun.
And we can't forget Stewart Harris, of the "continuous-motion machine"
who is seeking support for his crackpot invention. *snicker*
---------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, if anyone here has Internet access, and (more importantly) access
to the Internet Relay Network (IRC), you might want to look up
Benjamin C. Phelps, who claims to be the grandson of the Reverend Fred
Phelps of Topeka, Kansas. (We *all* know who Fred Phelps is, right?)
His Internet address is phelpsbe@acc.wuacc.edu
He has made occasional appearances in IRC, usually on the channel
#gospel, using one of three nicknames: Benjamin, Ishtam, or Antipas.
He's quite entertaining.
paul.boyer@unc.launchpad.edu
KN| FR> At times they'll express
| FR> bewilderment that the myths didn't convert the infidels on the spot.
| FR> Yet how many infidels know the Christian mythologies better?
| FR> What we like to do is to rework the myths into something a great deal
| FR> more entertaining. That usually cures a mythology-poster quickly
when
| FR> they see their myths easilly defiled.
KN|Some of the debunking that goes on here is really a riot. I might
|post some of his junk here somewhere along the line just for a laugh.
KN| FR> Just the infidel part of my ever so charming personality attempting
to
| FR> dredge- up a nights entertainment.
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|That it is!!
KN| kn> He has another one of the sheep from his BBS right now posting some
| kn> incredible junk which I have crossposted here about Noah's ark,
| kn> dinosaurs etc. (perhaps you've read it).
KN| FR> Of course I did! And thank you ever so much! That goes into the
| FR> light blue file under the heading "know the enemy" cross-indexed to
| FR> "anti-science sillyness."
KN|Ian Coles has disappeared already and Martin has reappeared once
|again under the protection of anybody flaming him being "punted".
KN|I invited him here *again* but of course he's cowering in fear at the
|heathens bequest of attendance. I might post some stuff about the
|church that he goes to called Truth Tabernacle. Apparently his brand
|of jesus drug (Apostolic Christian) requires loud wailing and moaning
|in groups in an effort to pray. HEY ! DO YOU SMELL POOH???!!!
KN| FR> Hopefully you'll continue to pass on anything specially interesting?
KN|I'll post the reference under "MOANING FOR JEZUZ" for everyone to enjoy.
KN| FR> I wonder if anyone has ever compiled a
| FR> book of such sillyness and published it. "Fundie Follies" might be
a
| FR> good title compliments of Steve Rose is a Rose.
| ^^^^^^^^^^
|He would be another fundy who got roasted in here? Too bad I missed it.
KN| FR> ~*~ Noah was not a Jew. He is the ancestor of the Jews and everyone
| FR> else. - Steve Bedard
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KN|Could you tell me what program you use for this. It's looks like
|loads more fun than using taglines!!
KN|... Let me know if you didn't receive this message!
|--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR]
| * Origin: The Cosmic Keyboard [Calgary, AB 403-246-6943 HST/DS] (1:134/67)
* OLX 2.1 * Heaven is the total, complete separation from Fundies.
--- WM v3.10/92-0491
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--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Stephen Lochmiller
Sub: Re: ADAM...
Date: 09 Jan 94 00:54:01
--------
EID:55d5 1c2906c0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d2fcce9
Hi Stephen...
On 05 Jan 94 21:34:17, Stephen Lochmiller penned the following ...
MG> Aside from this anceint book of mythology, could you give us any real
MG> evidence that your god exists?
SL> In reponse to MG: Can you give us any real evidence that Cesar lived,
SL> or Abraham Lincoln lived, or that George Washington lived or Thomas
SL> Jefferson lived? Can you really prove it to me? What would you show
SL> to me that would provide evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that even
SL> these great men of history lived on this earth.
First we were discussing evidence, then you changed it to "proof". The
"evidence" is overwhelming that all the above persons except "Cesar"
exists. Do you mean "Caesar"? Which one? Again, it hinges on evidence.
SL> You would probably say, we have proof by the writings of others who
SL> were alive at the time that these other men were alive and therefore
it
SL> is proof that they lived. Oh Really? What about the writings of John
SL> or Luke or the other authors included in the bible that knew first hand
SL> that Jesus walked the earth.
Can you offer evidence THEY existed? Did others who knew them write
about them? Is there corroberating evidence, either physical or writte
n?
If you want to discuss the veracity of the Gosple writers, I'll be
happy to do that...
SL> that they were actually the people that wrote those items? What
SL> "proof" do you have to provide me that those writings were not some
SL> part of a great joke played upon us all?
Evidence, son... it's a matter of evidence.
SL> Please don't get me wrong. Yes I do believe in those great men of our
SL> nations past just as you do but I am trying to prove my point that
SL> without first hand knowledge, can we say that we knew anyone lived
SL> before us beyond a shadow of a doubt? There is an area where we have
SL> to take the word of others and base our opinions on those reports.
To
Do we take the word of Bram Stoker that Count Dracula once bit the
throats of innocent maidens to satisfy his bloodthirst? Do we take
Shakespeare's word about Romeo & Juliet? How about Ollie North's word
on Iran-Contra? If the evidence is out there and tells us something, i
t
gives us knowledge of that something. If there is little evidence it
only leaves room for speculation rather than knowledge.
SL> believe or not to believe is up to each individual and your faith that
SL> the person or persons telling you something are telling you the truth
SL> from first hand experience that had or are they just merely passing
SL> along the word as they heard it from another who heard it from another
SL> who heard it from another etc.
This is where religion has its base. The "word" was passed along and
changed into something quite removed from the original.
SL> Can I prove that God lives or that Jesus walked the earth. No. But
I
SL> can tell you that in my heart, I do believe it just as much as I
SL> believe that Abraham Linconl lived also.
There is no evidence God lives, or at least, so little that it falls
into the "speculation" category. There is a fair amount of evidence a
man whom history has named Jesus Christ once walked the earth, althoug
h
his name was probably more like "Yeheshua ben Yacob" and his mission
was far removed from what the Christian myth has made him to be. I do
not "believe" Jesus existed, or "know in my heart" it is true. I have
come to a rational conclusion based on available evidence. It isn't a
belief any more than I believe in gravity or evolution... it just IS.
SL> Let me know what you think.
I did... B-})
John
... God so loved the world that He made up His mind to damn most of it.
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--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Len Ovens
Sub: Re: Aids Kills
Date: 09 Jan 94 00:57:50
--------
EID:4f33 1c290720
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d2fccea
On 26 Dec 93 23:30:10, Len Ovens penned the following to Questor Thews
LO> No such thing anymore, I'm born and raised Canadian and am not trying
LO> to pretend other wise.
Jeez... Canadians everywhere! In the forces they say "Canadians On Th
e
Alert!"
QT> Oh? I thought it spoke of a remarkable composition of elements easily
QT> broken down in laboratory conditions.
LO>
LO> Yes, but elements that if they followed natures laws wouldn't be
LO> together in the manner they are, if not for a creator. I have not yet
LO> heard another explaination that works. Maybe you have one????
You will find the arguement from incredulity won't work here. Just
because you haven't heard of one doesn't mean there isn't one.
LO> This is getting to be fun!! And so educational.
You're right! B-})
John
... Heck is reserved for all that don't believe in Gosh...
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Joe Schultz
Sub: Re: Bible
Date: 09 Jan 94 01:29:34
--------
EID:c114 1c290ba0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d2fcceb
Hi Joe...
On 07 Jan 94, Joe Schultz penned the following to John Musselwhite about
Bibl
e
JM> I believe they are buried at the foot of Masada after they were
> discovered there in the sixties. The scroll which belongs to
JS> Hello John. Naw, the Priori of Sion has them stashed away in a safety
JS> deposit box, insured by Lloyds of London.
I've heard that story before... I'd like to see some evidence of THAT
too!
JS> But, I broke in here for another reason. You seem to be a logical
JS> fellow. Maybe you could answer a question I've had a problem with:
I can try (he says modestly...)
JS> How would a supernatural god go about proving his (it's) claim that
JS> he is, in fact, a [THE] supernatural god, to a natural scientist? All
Clarke's Law indirectly states it cannot be done. "Any sufficiently
advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Need I say more?
JS> much of the nervous system is programmed by our belief system. There-
JS> fore, for example, if I believe the color blue is beneficial to my
JS> health and well being, and I find myself in a room painted blue, my
JS> nervous system tends to send signals to my consciousness, saying, all
JS> is well. Conversely, if I believe the color red is harmful to my
JS> health, and I find myself in a room painted red, I may suddenly feel
JS> ill.
I agree the subconcious has a great effect on behaviour. Colour is a
very good example of this. An entire field of psychology is devoted to
this, and even a colour test developed by a Dr. Luscher, where a
patient selects a number of colours in the order they appeal to them
and the order can be translated into a deep psychological profile.
JS> In other words is it not possible to tend to feel the way we believe?
Like my old momma used to say: "If you look good, you feel good." She
knew a LOT of hypochondriacs!
JS> But this is no obstacle to a person who believes that Jesus H. Christ
JS> is the living son of a supernatural god, because of various factors,
People can believe what they want... just don't ask ME to believe it.
JS> be restored on judgment day. Not to mention that "saved" Christians
JS> have this nasty propensity of "thinking" they feel better than non-
JS> Christians in the here and now.
Which is one of the reason Christians have been getting a bad
reputation of late.
JS> I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, John. Would you and I be
JS> better off in this world if we pretended to be Christians, or is it
JS> better to stick with the more down-to-Earth, natural phenomena, so
JS> that our "spirits" shall not be traumatized after our deaths? After
JS> all, it may be that if there is an after-life, it will appear exactly
JS> the way we have programmed our minds (and, therefore, our nervous
JS> systems) to think things will be!
Ahhh, this is an interesting phenomena. Because my mother had a
"near-death experience" when I was fairly young and discussed it with
us, I developed an interest in the subject. In brief, it is my opinion
an NDA will show you exactly what you expect it will. Perhaps, as Jane
Roberts in her "Seth" books said, the afterlife is exactly what you
expect it will be until the "adjustment period" is over...
John
... "I am immortal; I have inside me blood of kings!"
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--------
From: John Musselwhite
To: Martin Goldberg
Sub: Re: Hey
Date: 09 Jan 94 01:38:07
--------
EID:bb9c 1c290cc0
MSGID: 1:134/67.0 2d2fccec
Hi Martin...
On 06 Jan 94, Martin Goldberg penned the following to John Musselwhite
(quoting John to Suzy Q.)
JM> So... when do we see YOUR GIF?
MG> I got you beat. I saw the original tonight. She's much better
MG> looking than you.
I wouldn't doubt that one bit! B-}) How was dinner?
RevJohn
... "Who is this `God' person anyway?" - Oolon Coluphid
--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12
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From: Joe Schultz
To: Don Martin
Sub: Real unconvincing evidence
Date: 09 Jan 94 17:57:00
--------
EID:fdb6 1c298f20
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:114/262.0 2d308f96
ML> Then gravity's a god to you?
JS> No. I am smarter than gravity.
DM> Evidence?
Elementary, my dear Donson; you responded to me. You, yourself,
evidently thought I was smarter than gravity -- or do you have
irrefutable evidence that you also responded to Mr. Gravity. In
which case, show me your evidence.
The flies are really thick in here, non? You boys are going to
have to change your under-arm deodorant -- it definitely isn't
working.
Your Worst Nightmare!
--- FMail 0.96ā
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From: Jay Barrymore
To: Steve Bedard
Sub: Assurance
Date: 09 Jan 94 23:10:02
--------
EID:965f 1c29b940
PID: BWRA 3.01 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:114/262.0 2d30d950
-=> Quoting Steve Bedard to Jay Barrymore <=-
JB> The Hebrew tribal god portrayed in the Old Testament is a vengeful,
JB> wrathful deity that took pleasure in snuffing out people's lives, destr-
JB> oying civilzations, and in many instances abusing his devotees. People
JB> submitted to his worship due to their fear of his power, and not out
of
JB> love or a desire to do so.
SB> Interesting anti-Christian propaganda, but no where does it describe
a
SB> God who takes pleasure in destroying or in abusing His devotees. When
SB> He destroyed it was out of necessity and when He punished the Hebrews
SB> it was in order to bring them back to Him.
Steve, it's not anti-Christian propaganda. Just read the Old Testament
for
what it says. How can you not feel the least bit uncomfortable about how
God reportedly conducts himself within it's pages?
JB> Why should God treat people "differently" at one time from another?
JB> Has he gotten bored with abusing his "playthings?" No, I think the
JB> answer can be found in the view that Jesus was not "orthodox," and
JB> received a lot of his enlightenment from the Essenes. Jesus' methodol-
JB> ogy was totally different and alien to the orthodox Hebrew religion.
It
JB> was this approach that got him into trouble with the religious leaders
of
JB> that day.
SB> Why does a parent treat their child different at the age of twenty
SB> than they way they treated the child at the age of two?
Though the Hebrews were called "The Children of Israel," I hardly feel that
can qualify as calling them "infants." You're reasoning here is suspect,
of
course, if you perceive this as an attack against your faith, I suppose
you
will justify any answer in an effort to provide relief for whatever insecur-
ity you might be feeling regarding your fundamentalist stance.
JB> The reason for the differences between the Old Testament and New
JB> Testaments is that they are not of the same philosophy. Christianity
was
JB> a